a letter sent from the queen of england to the kings majesty at newport; concerning the overtures of the treaty and his proceedings with the commissioners for peace. with her majesties advice and desires touching the said treaty; and her propositions concerning all his majesties subjects within his realmes and dominions. also, his majeseies last concessions for peace, delivered to the commissioners, to be sent to both houses of parliament; shewing how far he hath given his royall assent to the second bill, touching bishops and church-government. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a88014 of text r205255 in the english short title catalog (thomason e467_17). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 10 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a88014 wing l1610 thomason e467_17 estc r205255 99864672 99864672 162312 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a88014) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 162312) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 75:e467[17]) a letter sent from the queen of england to the kings majesty at newport; concerning the overtures of the treaty and his proceedings with the commissioners for peace. with her majesties advice and desires touching the said treaty; and her propositions concerning all his majesties subjects within his realmes and dominions. also, his majeseies last concessions for peace, delivered to the commissioners, to be sent to both houses of parliament; shewing how far he hath given his royall assent to the second bill, touching bishops and church-government. henrietta maria, queen, consort of charles i, king of england, 1609-1669. [2], 6 p. printed for nathaniel williamson, london : 1648. a collection of letters relating to the proposed treaty with the king, and church government. annotation on thomason copy: "8ber [i.e. october] 12th". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng charles -i, -king of england, 1600-1649 -early works to 1800. church polity -early works to 1800. great britain -history -civil war, 1642-1649 -early works to 1800. a88014 r205255 (thomason e467_17). civilwar no a letter sent from the queen of england to the kings majesty at newport;: concerning the overtures of the treaty and his proceedings with t henrietta maria, queen, consort of charles i 1648 1551 3 0 0 0 0 0 19 c the rate of 19 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2008-09 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2008-11 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-12 megan marion sampled and proofread 2008-12 megan marion text and markup reviewed and edited 2009-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a letter sent from the queen of england to the kings majesty at newport ; concerning the overtures of the treaty and his proceedings with the commissioners for peace . with her majesties advice and desires touching the said treaty ; and her propositions concerning all his majesties subjects within his realmes and dominions . also , his majesties last concessions for peace , delivered to the commissioners , to be sent to both houses of parliament ; shewing how far he hath given his royall assent to the second bill , touching bishops and church-government . london printed for nathaniel williamson , 1648. the queen of englands letter to her soveraign lord , the king of great brittain , directed to his majesty at newport in the isle of wight , from paris in france . endeared sir , after a long time spent in consultation upon the great affairs of these languishing and distressed kingdoms , and having waded through a labyrinth of circumstances and argument for the composing of all differences within the said realms and dominions : his majesty were pleased to declare his sense and resolution to the commissioners , yesterday octob. 9. in answer to their former proposals , which were as followeth . that his majesty is pleased to condiscend that the church-lands shall be confirmed by ●his royall consent , to an act to confirm the particular grants already made of the bishops lands , for the space of 99. yeeres , together with the abolishing of bishops for the same terme of time ; provided , that there may be an indifferent choice of clergy men to be supervisors in ecclesiasticall affaires , accordingly as it shall be ordered and agreed on by the assembly of divines , allowed to consult by his majesties former condescentions . these , and the concessions before assented to , his majesty again proposeth to the parliaments commissioners , that he may come up to london , to treat on what else may conduce to the settlement of his three languishing and bleeding kingdoms : but the commissioners are not altogether satisfied with this answer ; neither do they take it as satisfactory . what the issue of this will be , we leave to time and providence . sir peter killegrew is disspatched away from hence , to the parliament , with his majesties last answer touching episcopacy . it is verily believed , that his majesty will give his royall word to passe all the propositions , rather then to have the treaty obstructed ; and the rather , becuse he finds all the designs of the royall party to be frustrated , both in england and scotland ; as also the capitall and , metropolitan designe in the kingdome of france to be blasted in the bud , before it could come to any maturity or ripenesse ; as appeares by an expresse from thence to his majesty , and sent from the queen to her dread soveraign the king ; the heads whereof i have here inserted viz. that the great differences throughout he cities of paris , roan , and other parts adjacent within the limits and bounds of the french territories , hath quite obstructed the design of his majesties friends for england , and that the eglish quarrell is so great in severall parts of that kingdom , that no integrity or loyalty can appeare visible to its soveraign : and therefore seeing no meanes prevalent , to advance his majesties cause , her majesty desireth , that this present treaty , may be the salve and balsome , to cure and heal all diseases , throughout his vast and bleeding nations concluding , that she doth in a deep sense bewaile the sad and intestine miseries of all his liege people whatsoever . further desiring , that his majesty would be pleased to embrace all such counsels and consultations that may tend to the peace and tranquility of his three kingdoms of england , scotland , and ireland . during the time of this treaty , sundry expresses have come from severall parts to the king , which represent things to be in a very sad condition touching the advancement of his cause ; who upon consideration thereof , it s conceived will prove the most instrumentall , to bring a period to our distractions , and exclude all thoughts of jealousie from his majesties royal breast , to his two houses of parliament . newport , 10. october , 1648. by another expresse from the isle of wight it is said , that the great businesse insisted on is , the proposition for setling religion , which is like to take up some time , his majesty gave in a paper to the commissioners of the reasons wherefore the could not condiscend to the taking away bishops , and the government by bishops , the treaty hereupon hath held all the last week , and nothing yet concluded on , yet most are of opinion his maj. will assent , and this proposition being over , there is lesse doubt the other in course will be agreed on . his maj. hath promised to deliver in his positive answer this present munday ; which if it be but satisfactory , no doubt but there will be a good conclusion of all to an happy peace . newport 9. octob. 1648. new propositions presented to his majesty . 1 that your maj. according to the laudable example of your royall father of happy memory , may be pleased to swear and sign the late solemn league and covenant ; and that an act of parl ▪ be passed , for the injoyning the taking thereof by all the subjects of the kingdom , &c. 2 that a bill be passed for the utter abolishing and taking away of all arch-bishops , bishops , their chancellors , and commissaries , deans and sub-deans , and all other officers whatsoever , out of the church of england and dominion of wales ; and out of the church of ireland . 3 that the ordinances concerning the calling and sitting of the assembly of divines , be confirmed by act of parliament . 4 that reformation of religion according to the covenant be setled by act of parliament , in such manner as both houses have agreed , or shall agree upon after consultation had with the assembly of divines . 5 that for the more effectual disabling jesuits , priests , papists , and popish recusants from disturbing the state , and deluding the laws ; and for the better discovering , and speedy conviction of popish recusants , an oath be established by act of parliament to be administred to them , wherein they abjure and renounce the popes supremacy , the doctrine of transubstantiation , purgatory , worshipping of the consecrated hoast , crucifixes and images , and all popish superstitions and errors ; and refusing the said oath , being tendred in such manner as shall be appointed by the said act , to be a sufficient conviction of popish recusants . 6 an act or acts of parliament for education of the children of papists by protestants , in the protestant religion . 7 an act for the true leavy of the penalties against them , which penalties to be levied and disposed in such manner as both houses shall agree on , wherein to be provided that his majesty shall have no losse . 8 that an act be passed in parliament , whereby the practises of papists may be prevented , and a stricter course taken to prevent tht saying or hearing of mass in the court , or any other part of this kingdom , or the kingdom of ireland . to the four first , its said his maj. makes some scruple at : to the latter , we hear , that he gave his royall assent on munday last . letters further from the isle of wight say , that the kings answer on munday last of the bill of religion , were presented to the parliaments commissioners , by his majesties secretary , and were● subscribed , charles r. wherein is contained , the sense and resolution of his majesty touching bishops , and his concessions to abolish all arch-bishops , bishops , their chancellors and commissaries , deans and sub-deans , canons , prebendaries , and all other their inferiour officers , out of the church of england and dominion of vvales , for the term of 99 years . he hath also promised his royall word to passe an act to confirm the sale of bishops lands for the same time ; and therefore desireth , that he may come to london , to treat upon the rest in course with his two houses of parliament personally . the treaty goes on unanimously , but little concluded on between the king and the commissioners ; but it s conceived before the 16 of this instant october , you will hear of a happy conclusion . newport 10 octob. 1648. finis the independants declaration delivered in to the assembly. by thomas goodwin, william greenhill, william bridge, philip nie, sydrach simpson, and william carter. declaring their grounds and full resolutions concerning church-government. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a87251 of text r201707 in the english short title catalog (thomason e399_1). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 12 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a87251 wing i148 thomason e399_1 estc r201707 99862207 99862207 114358 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a87251) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 114358) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 63:e399[1]) the independants declaration delivered in to the assembly. by thomas goodwin, william greenhill, william bridge, philip nie, sydrach simpson, and william carter. declaring their grounds and full resolutions concerning church-government. goodwin, thomas, 1600-1680. greenhill, william, 1591-1671. bridge, william, 1600?-1670. nye, philip, 1596?-1672. simpson, sidrach, 1600?-1655. carter, w. (william) [2], 6 p. printed for b.t., london, : in the yeer. 1647. annotation on thomason copy: "july 17". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng church polity -early works to 1800. independent churches -england -early works to 1800. dissenters, religious -england -early works to 1800. congregationalism -early works to 1800. a87251 r201707 (thomason e399_1). civilwar no the independants declaration delivered in to the assembly.: by thomas goodwin, william greenhill, william bridge, philip nie, sydrach simps goodwin, thomas 1647 2066 2 0 0 0 0 0 10 c the rate of 10 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-09 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-09 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-10 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2007-10 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the independants declaration delivered in to the assembly . by thomas goodwin , william greenhill , william bridge , philip nie , sydrach simpson , and william carter . declaring their grounds and full resolutions concerning church-government . london , printed for b. t. in the yeer . 1647. a copy of the independants declaration to the assembly of divines . to make known what ever we hold , concerning church-government , as wee have had publique testimony in this assembly , so we have manifold instances and evidences of it ; witnesse that constant , free , and open expressing our selves upon all occasions , and in all questions propounded to the debate , with offers to give an open account at any time , in what ever should be asked us by any brother . our proffering divers times to bring in propositions , stated to our sense for the dispute , and when we were made a committee to that purpose , in the point of ordination , and did bring our iudgements concerning it for a dispute , it was laid aside . and at another time , when we our selves brought in papers , giving the state of the question , about that extraordinary way of ordination , which were read , and returned back unto us , it being publiquely professed that that was not an allowed way and course of this assembly , for any of the brethren to bring in papers , unlesse they were made a committee by the assembly it selfe . and so we were prevented of doing the like for time to come . likewise our frequent complainings of the stating of questions , so that we could not fully argue for our iudgements , wee being bound up to the questions as stated by you . the usuall answer to our complaints herein being , that the assembly sate not to argue the opinions of a few men , but if wee had any thing to say to the assertion brought in , we might . as also our earnest contending to have some questions ( which you all know are the greatest and most fundamentall points ) fairly disputed and debated , is a sufficient testimony of this our willingnesse . as in the entrance into the dispute of government , the first day , we pressed the handling of this , that there is a platform of government for the churches , under the gospel , laid down in the scripture , and desired to have discussed , what are the sure and certain wayes , whereby wee may judge what of government is held forth iure divino therein , which should have been fundamentall to all the disputes that were to follow : and this was professedly laid aside by you , which therefore in none of the subsequent debates , we could renew , and thus arguments were cut off , it being that great and necessary medium , by which the patticulars should be confirmed , and in a manner the whole controversie decided ; the greatest difference that were likely to grow betwixt us , being this , that the forms of government , you pretend to , and we deny , are asserted to be iure divino . in like manner , that other next great question , about the intire power in congregations , that have a sufficient presbytery for all censures , which as it is in order the first that presents it selfe for discussion ( as was urged ) so also it is one of the greatest points in difference betwixt us & you : yet the debate of this was not only denyed the first place in the dispute , but was to this day declined by you ; although to have it argued was contended for by us ▪ and not by us only , but by many of those , that are for a subordinate government thereof to synods . and though earnest desires and motions for it were renewed and inculcated , yet were they as often laid aside . yea and this , although it was once expresly commended by the grand committee of the hon. members of both houses , joyned with twelve divines of the assembly , to be next disputed , as the best means , both of expedition , and of ending the controversie . and over and above all this , to argue this our willingnesse to dispute our way , in the aforesaid honourable committeee appointed by an order of the honourable house of commons , to find out wayes , of accommodating different iudgements in the assembly , the sub-committee of divines , consisting of two of us , and foure others , appointed by that honourable committee to prepare wayes and propositions of accommodation , brought in the main and most of what practically we desired , and we therein added , that if such a liberty shall seem in the wisdome of this honorable committee , to be so prejudicical to the peace of the church as not to be permitted , we humbly desire , the doctrinall principles wherein we differ about church-government , may be taken into serious consideration , and some other way of accommodation in practise thought upon , as shall seem fit to this honourable committee : and this was presented to that honorable committee and those twelve of the assembly , to be transmitted , whether to the honorable houses , or the assembly as they should think meet . after this , when upon occasion of something brought in by one brother , and entertained , we took hold of that example , and one of us , with consent of the rest , brought in 7 propositions , which contained matter of difference betwixt us , professing , that if this reverend assembly would debate them , or any one of them , we would bring in more , untill we had brought in all the frame , and the assembly themselves should pick and chuse what they would debate , & what not . but these propositions were rejected with a refusall to debate any one of them . and after all this , though the main parts of a presbyteriall government ▪ had been then voted by the assembly , and sent up to the honorable houses ( as , namely , that about ordination , and the presbyteriall government over many congregations , as also concerning the subordination of nationall , provinciall and classicall assemblies ) and there was not much remaining about church-government , to be concluded in this assembly : yet this reverend assembly requiring , ( by occasion of a book published , that reflected on these proceedings , that we had no hand in nor knowledge of ) a whole frame of government , with the grounds and reasons thereof , to be brought in by us , and voted us hereto to be a committee , we yeilded our selves to be a committee to bring in part by part , in like manner as the presbyteriall government was brought into the assembly , and disputed : but that was not accepted . and then it being said , that there was something in church-government , remaining undiscussed , and unresolved ; and it being further alledged that the assembly had not sent up all that which they had concluded , but meant to present an entire frame and body to the honourable houses : and that we might take away all occasions of any such jealousies that we were unwilling to discover what we held ( which were commonly in mens mouths abroad ) we yeilded to be a committee , to bring in the whole to this assembly , though upon all the fore-mentioned disadvantages , & were purposed & resolved amongst our selves so to do , and that in as convenient a time as a work of such a compasse could , ( in such a manner as was proposed by you ) be dispatched by us . and as in the debate about making us a committee , the assembly would not declare ( though pressed by us ) what they would do with that modell , and those reasons we should bring in ; so the voting of what yet remained in church-government , was hastened by you . and when not long after , upon occasion of the debate of one particular point , in which we differed from this assembly , we moved it might be deferred , because we should present our judgements and reasons about it , with the rest , ( for therein lay that which we accounted the favour of being made a committee by you ) it was publiquely answered , that therefore the assembly should the rather go on to the concluding of it , because we intended to bring it in ; and before we could dispatch that body we intended , so as to report it unto you according to your order ; ( the collection of the materials whereof , spent us two or three months , and we could not obtain the liberty to bring in any thing but the whole ) this assembly had presented to the honourable houses , as well what had been sent up by peeces afore , as what was since concluded , in one intire frame . by all which we perceived , that that which was the main end and use of presenting such a modell to this assembly , would be frustrated . and furthermore , we having given in ( as this assembly knows ) but two heads of dissenting reasons : the one against the presbyteriall government over many congregations : the other against the subordination of synods . by the successe of the latter we see , that this assembly can assume the liberty ( if it so please ) to reserve those we shall now present , unanswered , as they have done those our dissenting reasons against subordination of synods , although it contain a great and main part of that wherein we differ , as also is of all other , the greatest moment , both to this church and state , and hath been given in to this assembly ten months since , and their votes concerning these subordinations , as long since presented to the honourable houses , but have not been answered by any reply brought into this assembly , and so not ready to have been sent up to the hon. houses . and if these we might now bring in , should be undertaken to be answered by this assembly , yet we still retain the sense of so much remedilesse prejudice , by being bound from replying again , as doth make us justly wary : we may for ever lie under whatever mis-interpretations may happen , ( suppose but through mistake of yours , or imperfection of our expression ) without clearing our meaning , and wee may be bound up from further urging or driving home that wherein the strength of any argumenr lies , if the dint thereof should be avoided by some specious diversion . and although our former reasons given in after dispute to both the honourable houses , according to their order , were therefore not our own , but to be disposed of according to their appointment ; yet what we should now give in , we conceive to be in our own power . upon these considerations we think that this assembly , hath no cause now to require a report of us , nor will that our report be of any use , seeing that reports are for debates , and debates are for results to be sent up to the honorable houses , who have already voted another forme of government then what we shall present . however it may be of more use some other way , which by this course may be prevented , and therefore we are resolved to wait for some further opportunity to improve what we have prepared . finis . noah's dove, or, an epistle of peace directed to his intirely affected brethren, the presbiterians and independants as a probable means for their agreement and vnion / from sir iames harington, knight. harrington, james, sir, 1607-1680. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a45617 of text r31528 in the english short title catalog (wing h815). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 19 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 7 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a45617 wing h815 estc r31528 12043731 ocm 12043731 53067 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a45617) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 53067) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1011:14) noah's dove, or, an epistle of peace directed to his intirely affected brethren, the presbiterians and independants as a probable means for their agreement and vnion / from sir iames harington, knight. harrington, james, sir, 1607-1680. [2], 10 p. printed by t.w. for ed. husband ..., london : 1645. erroneously attributed by wing to james harrington, 1611-1677. reproduction of original in the union theological seminary library. eng church polity. a45617 r31528 (wing h815). civilwar no noah's dove, or, an epistle of peace, directed to his intirely affected brethren, the presbiterians, and independants. as a probable means, harrington, james, sir 1645 3382 1 0 0 0 0 0 3 b the rate of 3 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the b category of texts with fewer than 10 defects per 10,000 words. 2004-12 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-01 andrew kuster sampled and proofread 2005-01 andrew kuster text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion noah's dove , or , an epistle of peace , directed to his intirely affected brethren , the presbiterians , and independants . as a probable means , for their agreement and vnion . from sir iames harington , knight . imprimat . joseph carill . london , printed by t. w. for ed. husband , printer for the honourable house of commons . 1645. noahs dove , or an epistle of peace , directed to his intirely affected brethren , the presbiterians , and independants : as a probable means , for their agreement and union . sincerely beloved , i read of two children contending in the wombe of their mother , the one beloved , the other hated , but ye are both jacobs , both the israel of god . o farre be it from such brethren to rend and lacerate their mothers bowels , or to fall out in the way . are we not one body , and have we not all one spirit , one lord , one faith , one baptisme , one god and father of all , who is above all , and through all , and in you all , i beseech you by the mercies of god , by the excellent effects of charity , by the fruits of the spirit , by the examples and command of the lord jesus , and the character of his disciples , bee meeke and lowly , and love one another ; so shall the plots of rome and hell be prevented , and all malignants shut their mouthes . why should it be spoken to our shame , that there is not a wise man amongst us ? no , not one that is able to judge between his brethren : but brother asperces and declaimes against brother , and that before the antichristians . now therefore there is utterly a fault amongst you , know yee not that revilers shall not inherit the kingdome of god ? but some will answer , that they have received a new light , o be cautious that noveltie eclipse not truth , since the last dayes foretold and fore-warnd of by our saviour , are at hand , wherein iniquity abounds , and the love of many waxes cold , hence , father against sonne , and sonne against father , betraying one another , and hating one another ; hence the judgements of famine and pestilence ; nation rising up against nation . so that the whole world seemes to be on fire before its time ; these dayes not i , but the lord jesus , the great prophet of his church , dictates and points out to be the time , when many false christs , and prophets ( or teachers of christianity ) shall arise ; who by their applause , excellencie of parts , and externall holinesse , by which they shall shew forth , as it were , signes and wonders , and gather a multitude of disciples , declaring that in such a meeting , be it in woods , or deserts , or in secret chambers , the true way of christ is to be found , deceiving if it were possible , the very elect . our lord teaching us from hence , how neere a similitude , these new doctrines shall have to truth , and true holinesse . but be they as paul , or cephas in the church , or as angels from heaven , believe them not ; for as the lightning comes out of the east , and shines even to the west , so shall also the glorious comming of the son of man be ; that is , ( as i humbly conceive ) that his gospell which at first broke out like lightning in the east , shall in this last age , upon the ruins , and through the clouds of spirituall babilon , dart it selfe , and shine gloriously in our westerne churches even to the indies ; that th'other paralell prophesie may be fulfill'd , by the subjecting , and uniting the kingdomes of the earth , unto the kingdome of the lord , and of his christ . let us not then be carried about with every wind of doctrine , but hold fast the gospell delivered to us by christ , and his apostles , in the unity of the spirit , and the bond of peace , since other foundation can no man lay , it being a sinne , so much as to doubt , much more to defend , that the fundamentalls of our religion , some of which are mentioned by the author to the * hebrews , and received by the church in all ages , are not to bind , as de futuro , as having a possibilitie upon new notions , to be nuld or chang'd , which is to make god a lyer , to undermine his church , and to pull downe the pillers thereof ; for if the foundations bee destroyed , what shall ? * nay , what can the righteous doe ? wherefore my humble suit unto our master builders is , to keepe the foundation unmoveable , not permitting a resurrection to ancient heretiques before their time , that so whatsoever men build thereon , whether it be gold or stubble , may be brought to the test , in this fiery triall . stand fast therefore brethren in that libertie , wherein christ hath made us free , not making your libertie a cloake for malitiousnesse , not for an occasion to the flesh , but by love serve one another , judging thus of one another that he that loves his brother , abides in the light , but * he that hates his brother ( whatsoever he may boast of new discoveries , ) walkes in darknesse , and knowes not whither he goes , because that darknesse hath blinded his eyes , and that whosoever seemes to be religious , and yet bridles not his tongue , he deceives his owne heart , and his religion is vain . * but that i may not only perswade , but offer my mite , i shall in all humilitie propose a medium , which if found agreeable to the word of god , may through the blessing of the almighty make up the breach , and reconcile your greatest difference . i conceive you both agree in these particulars . that all that shall be members , and have right to vote in your churches , ( from which votes women are excepted ) shall not only be free from just scandall , that is prophannesse , and the impenitent practise of any knowne sinne , but be indued with a sufficiencie of knowledge , to which end ( since you accord in the principles of religion ) i hope there will speedily be set forth , and establisht one short catechisme for information , and examination . next in condiscention to the independants , i heare it is mutually resolved , that the government of their respective members , reconciling of inferiour differences , and ordering their conversations , even as farre as ordination , and the censure of excommunication , ( respect being had in appeals to the advice and results of the classes and provinciall synods , and saving to the presbyterians their right ) be ordered by their paricular congregations . thus farre we are knit together in one spirituall building and temple of god . the great difference if i understand it , is in the tegument and covering , which is indeed , the ornament , coupling , and strength of the whole aedifice : as where shall rest ( as to us ) under the same scepter , the determinative and concluding power , the end of appeals , the regulation of that unlimited plea , and over-much extended libertie of conscience , that so we may be one , as christ and his father are one ; this , some of you fixe in a generall assemblie , others , limit to a particular congregation ; the first pleads not only scripture analogically , but prudence for preserving union , and preventing of tumults , as also antiquitie , from the paralell in generall counsells and parliaments , affirming that the other way , hath no grounds in scripture : since churches were necessarily independant , no state being then christian that this way ( by reason that our corrupt nature hath no check ) is destructive to the unitie of religion . since according to the number of the congregations will be their opinions , as also pernitious to common-wealths ; their being no feuds so bloody and irreconciliable , as those that breake out about points of faith , instance , in the wars betweene the turke and persian , papists and protestants , in the lutheran contestations , and arian persecutions . lastly , they conclude an inconsistencie in this way , with relations and callings , disaffection and departure from bed , board , families , and imployments , being experimentall consequences of religious differences . on the other side , the contradicting partie affirme , that a generall assembly differs but in name from a conclave of cardinals , or prelaticall synod , that every member of the church is free , and ought not in matters of faith , to conclude himselfe by proxie , that no church hath power over another , or brethren ( since the apostles , ) have dominion over the consciences of their brethren , that their platforme of church government ought to be , and is jure divino , that the eavngelicall scripture sets foorth theirs , and no other . now deare brethren , give me your pardon and leave with moses , to step in betwixt your combatings , with his and abrahams words , why doe ye contend being ye are brethren , it may be god giving a blessing , and each of you in his hand , i shall in my proposition be a medium to unite you , ( only dispise not my indeavours , ) since the lord hides many things from the wise and prudent , and reveales them to babes . but to proceed , i observe neither of you arrogate to your selves an infallability but piously seeke , an orthodox and prudentiall way of government , for the attaining and preserving , gods truth ; blessed are your indeavours , yea they shal be blessed . wherefore i aske the presbiterians why doe ye extoll and lift up a generall assemblie , above the rest of the flocke of christ : to the independants i say why doe ye preferre the judgement of one particular congregation , before the ioynt votes of all the refined christian churches of the kingdome , surely the first will yeild to me , that where most of gods people are in their judgement , there is the greatest measure of his spirit , and to such assemblies principally , and to their votes , are made all those gratious promises ( i neede not coate the places ) concerning christs spirit and presence i mean to such a multitude not of men only , but of purged and visible believers . the other i presume both from grounds of scripture and reason , will grant , that could the votes of all the reputed and received members of christ , of their severall churches , be joyntly taken and in one place , they must be accepted , and are but as the vote of one great congregation , which though it have an increase of ministers and elders , yet according to a true difinition for essence is a church , and that more eminently , though not more truely then the particular congregations of whom it consists , even as an assembly made up of many families , called by the * apostle churches of god , is more excellent , then its subdivisions . but that i may make good by scripture , this incorporating of churches , conjuncture and union of votes , i shall remember you of those three chiefe proofes , and lights of church governmrnt , both for doctrine and manners . the first shewes the primitive and apostolique way , of ending controversies in doctrine , by the summoning of that great assembly , of the members of the churches of ierusalem and iudea of which churches , read . acts. 11. 1. and galat : 1. 22. therefore called a multitude . acts. 15. 12. in which the apostles , ( although indued with an infallible spirit , ) and the elders of the churches did not alone vote , and decree matters ( though that in many cases , wherein the people consents , such votes , may be and are necessary expedient & lawfull ) but the whole church . verse 22. which compar'd with . acts. 2. verse 41. wherein three thousand are said to be converted , and with acts. 4. verse 4. wherein five thousand , were by one sermon converted , clearely demonstrates , that this assembly was composed of many congregations , as further appeares from the apostles teaching and preaching in every house . acts. 5. 42. how else could eight thousand men , besides women and children , be taught and edified . the like is proved , from the election and choise of the seaven deacons by the vote of the multitude . acts. 6. 5. where the apostles , and elders also were present , yea those whom the holy ghost . acts. 2. 47. calls a church in a nationall respect , he calls churches . acts. 9. 31. in a congregationall consideration , and lastly in corinth there more then probably appears to be many * congregations , else whence or where , were these discentions , and divisions some saying , i am of paul : others i am of apollo , of cephas , 1. cor. 1. 12. all the members of which were commanded to meete in one assembly for the excommunication of the incestuous person 1. cor. 5. 4. where note they were to meete , to whom the epistle was directed , & who are admonished to mourn : but the epistle and exhortation was directed to the whole church of corinth , and not to the elders only ▪ ergo the whole congregation , when they shall desire it , have a right to vote , and censure . having thus fully proved by scripture , that in cities and provinces , and consequently in kingdoms , the members of particular congregations may and were by command to meete for the deciding of any great difference , yea the apostles though of an infallible spirit , did not contradict , but give both approbation and institution to that liberty . i shall with humblest submission , offer this following proposition , as a right and fit medium of reconciliation . that in all great scisms and heresies , over spreading whole churches , if the breach cannot be made up by advice , argument , and subordinate discipline either congregationall or presbiteriall ; an appeale be made to a generall assembly , who after the stating , disputing and voting , such points in difference together with the merrit of the offence ( the recusant church or churches , notwithstanding continuing unsatisfied ) that then the assembly adjourne that sessions for three moneths , in which time , the assembly , members of each congregation , to be ordered after fasting and prayer , to state the question and declare the arguments and judgement of the generall assembly to their particular churches , and so accordingly at that meeting receive , and bring up each churches vote and sentence with the number ( because of the disproportion of parishes ) sum'd up of those that affirme , and those that discent , that so at the next session the question may be decided and concluded , by the major vote , both of churches and members which scripture way will not only by a religious policy from time to time discover the temper , pulse , & inclination of the whole kingdome , and consequently administer a great help and direction to government , but will give full satisfaction to all , ( unlesse to obstinate heritickes ) as being the judgement and vote ( even by the poale ) of all the visible and individuall christians of the kingdome politically united , as in one congregation , yea the disobedient wil be left without excuse , and justly liable to their sentence of excommunication . but put the question a considerable number of the churches in the kingdome , give in their vote with a new opinion , hazarding a rent and division in the nation . i answer , that upon so sad an occasion our church ( in imitation of the ancient callings of generall counsels , upon the over flowing of heresie , ) ought to desire the judgement and assistance , and that by additionall votes ( if it may be ) of all the reformed churches in the world , which comes neerest to the judgement of the holy catholicke church , the body of christ , to which he hath promised his presence , and spirit of truth to the end , and therefore must as to each particular state or church , though not infallibly , yet prudentially , end and conclude by obedience either active or passive the discenting churches , whom the civill magistrate after the churches excommunication , is to order by banishment or lesser punishment , according as their doctrines , shal be more or lesse prejudiciall to the state , wherein they live . which since they suffer as evill doers , is ( as to that common-wealth ) a civill and necessary act of preservative justice , not an inforcing of conscience or persecution . thus fervently beseeching the blessing of the all-wise god , upon my poore and weake indeavours , trusting that in the bowells of love , and charity , i have in sincerity and plainnesse declared unto you the mind of christ , in all humility i conclude . the unworthiest of the servants of the lord iesus . j. h. finis . imprimatur joseph carill . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a45617e-210 gen. 25. 22. malach. 1. 3 gen. 45. 24. eph. 4. 4 , 5 , 6 rom. 12. 1. 1 cor. 13. 4. galat. 5. 22. math. 11. 29. john 13. 34 , & 35. 1 cor. 6. 5 , 6. 7. 10. math. 24. 12. vers 7. 10. vers. 11. and 24. vers. 26. and 24. vers. 27. gal. 1. 8. 2 cor. 11. 13. rev. 11. 15. eph. 4. 14. eph. 4. 3. 1 cor. 3. 11. rom. 14. 23. * heb. 6. 1. 2. * psal. 11. 3. 1 cor. 3. 12. gal. 5. 1. & 13. * 1 joh. 2. 9. 1. * jam. 1. 16. 1 cor. 14. 34. 1 tim. 2. 11. 1 cor. 5. 11. 2 cor. 6. 14. 17. ephes. 2. 21. joh. 17. 21. exod. 2. 13. gen. 13. 8. mat. 11. 25. * colos : 4. 15. rom. 16. 5. * compare rom. 16. 16. with the postscript of that epistle . acts 1. 15. 23. act. 21. 22. math. 28. 20 2. chro. 15. verse 12. 13. 14. matthew . 18 verse . 17. episcopal and presbyterial government conjoyned proposed as an expedient for the compremising of the differences, and preventing of those troubles about the matter of church-government / written in the late times by ... ja. usher ... ussher, james, 1581-1656. 1679 approx. 25 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 8 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a64644) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 49590) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 555:3) episcopal and presbyterial government conjoyned proposed as an expedient for the compremising of the differences, and preventing of those troubles about the matter of church-government / written in the late times by ... ja. usher ... ussher, james, 1581-1656. 13 [i.e. 14] p. 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will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng church polity. 2005-02 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2005-08 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2006-01 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2006-01 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-04 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion episcopal and presbyterial government conjoyned : proposed as an expedient for the compremising of the differences , and preventing of those troubles about the matter of church-government . written in the late times by the late learned and famous ja. usher , arch-bishop of armagh and primate of ireland . and now published , seriously to be considered by all sober conscientious persons , and tendred to all the sons of peace and truth in the three nations , for recovering the peace of the church , and setling its government . tolle jano nominis crimen , & nihil restat nisi criminis nomen , tert. apol. contra rationem nemo sobritis ; contra scripturam nemo christianus ; contra ecclesiam nemo pacificus senserit . aug. de trin. london , printed in the year 1679. the preface . if any one ask , who is he presumes to publish the papers of that learned , pious , and peacable prelate ( worthy of eternal memory , ) without approbation first had , of such as hold the chair in the several parts of controverted discipline ? i answer , the learned men of each party are not yet agreed , nor do i know when they will be : and the times require that some means be used to advance the peace of the church , and preserve the nation . that peace i mean , whereby the minds of men may be disposed to lay aside all old animosities , and upon a common principle of union , become charitable , and so perpetual friends . the faithfull and true ministers of the gospel of peace , will ( i hope , ) give their allowance to this attempt , pious and charitable in its intention . for the contrary minded who would have fire come from heaven to consume all those , who receive not their dictates , i shall only rebuke them with that of our saviour to his disciples , ye know not of what manner of spirit ye are ? peace therefore and christian concord , is not the matter these men seek , but perpetual parties and sidings , wherein perhaps they hope to appear somebody ; which temper ( even in the minds where it ought least to be , ) hath embroyl'd the world in miserable feuds . and this being perceiv'd by men experienced in publick business , hath produced variety of complaints . sir edwyn sandys discoursing of the division of protestants abroad into lutherans and calvinists , complains . that the ministers of each side have so far bestirr'd themselves , that the coal which a wise man , with a little moisture of his mouth would soon have quenched , they with the wind of their breath have contrariwise so enflamed , that it threatneth a great ruine and calamity on both sides . and a little after , reprehending the heat and extremity of contention . they make more account ( says he ) of some empty syllogism than of the peace of the church , and happiness of the world. the most learned and pious hugo grotius , bemoaning the discords of christian leaders , says , si in eorum bellorum quibus tam diu vastatur europa causas inquirimus , inveniemus hoc incendium , maximè ab ijs quos pacis praecones esse debuerunt excitatum . and mr. dury , after all his travells in the matter of ecclesiastical peace , found at last the difficulty to lie at home , among those of his own profession : which caused him to lay down this maxim. that neither can a civil confederation be truly framed among protestants , nor when it is framed can it be faithfully maintained , except the foundation thereof be laid in the minds of the clergy . the expedient here proposed by this learned and pious prelate , for composing the controversies and contentions about ecclesiastical government , will not make the wounds wider i hope , i do not see how it can . and if it bring with it a healing virtue to unite and consolidate parties discontinued , in any measure , i shall not repent me of acting the empyrick in applying this sovereign receipt , ( which came fortunately to my hands ) to the curing all those fretting ailments have so long troubled the church . nor will this attempt of mine be insecure , if the learned and pious guides of either party be consulted . it is dr. hammond's judgment , that a moderate episcopacy , with a standing assistant presbytery , as it will certainly satisfie the desires of those whose pretensions are regular and moderate , ( craving nothing more , and in some things less than the laws of the land , ) so it will appear to be that , which all parties can best tolerate : and which next himself , both presbyterian , independant and erastian , will make no question to choose and prefer , before any of the other pretenders . and mr. baxter , ( no friend to modern episcopacy ) earnestly incultating the pastoral care and oversight of souls : i speak not this , says he , against any bishops , that acknowledge the presbyters to be true pastors to rule and teach the flock , and take themselves only to be the chief , and presidents among presbyters , yea , or the rulers of presbyters that are rulers of the flock . but of them that null the presbyters office , and the churches government and discipline , by undertaking it alone as their sole prerogative . me thinks , ( as agrippa said to paul , almost thou persuadest me to be a christian , ) i might here step in , and tell these learned and pious controvertists , that , almost they may be persuaded to be friends . but the principal defence i intend my self against the censures of my publishing those papers , is , the sense of the late king himself , in his posthumous admired book . not ( says he ) that i am against the managing of this presidency and authority in one man by the joynt counsel and consent of many presbyters ; i have offered to restore that . and again , i was willing to grant or restore to presbytery , what with reason or discretion it can pretend to ; in a conjuncture with episcopacy . so that , the purpose the late king had , of uniting his divided people , ( if god had so permitted , whose judgments are wonderfull , and his ways past finding out , ) was upon grounds agreeable to the design of this paper . and therefore what was by him so piously and prudently intended , for restoring peace and unity to the church , is so much the more necessary now , by how much we understand that intention of the said king : and that the same parties remain still estranged in conuntenance and conversation . and yet it would not be so , if some instrument or medium could be used to bring them to debate ( with an humble christian spirit , ) on terms of reconcilement and unīty . which , whensoever it shall , by gods gracious dispensation and providence over us be granted : so much of our passions and interest must be laid aside , as not to think it imaginable , in the traverse of such long and sharp disputes and diffirences , that one party should be totally guilty , and the other altogether innocent . when i consider a presbyterian , will it be well to fetch a character , from all the frailties and failings of men of that persuasion ? if one preached , it would never be well till twice 7. prelates be hanged up , as the 7. sons of saul were hanged up in gibeon . and another , that the bloodiest and sharpest war was to be endured , rather than the least error in doctrine and discipline . and another , wishing that all the prelates in the kingdom and himself were together in a bottomless boat at sea , for he would be content to loose his life , so the bishops might loose theirs . will not all these seem strong and tearing winds , rending the rocks of all order and good government , in which god was not . rather than the small and still voice , which walked in the garden in the cool of the day , when god came to enquire calmly after adams sin ? or will they not seem rather so many predictions , which we have seen fulfilled sadly upon that place , and those persons , whoyet were as ignorant of the prophetick import of their own expressions , as caiphas was of christs offering himself for the world , when he counselled the jews , that it was expedient that one man should die for the people , and yet knew not the import of christ dying for the people . when men pass sentence upon themselves , god often sees it executed : the israelites no sooner wish they had died in the land of egypt , or in the wilderness : but the answer is returned , as i live saith the lord , as you have spoken in mine ears , so will i do to you . and the heathen poet could teach us the same lesson . evertere domos totas optantibus ipsis , dii faciles . i do not like raking fire out of embers , by searching for the faults of men , who perished in their own flames , and are objects of our pitty more than passion . otherwise no nation under heaven could afford examples equal to that of scotland , for the proof of rigid presbyterian discipline . of which how much is settled after more then 100 years are run out since the nobles , gentry and people , have been vehemently . sollicited to kill and slay each other , or any body else rather than be , without it , the present state of affairs there may bear us witness . would it be a good course of judging of episcopal government , to rake into the records and histories of 1600. years , for the errors of all bishops , whòm worldly interest , or passion , or other human frailties have carried beyond the gravity , austerity , humility and apostolical piety of their primitive institution . and will this serve to level imparity , the principle of all order and government ? and secure the modern presbytery from the like irregularities or excesses ? certainly those accusations and calumnies , which politicians say secure other states , subvert the foundations of the churches peace : which are laid in charity , the characteristick note of a christian. by this ye know if ye be my disciples , ( says christ ) if ye love one another . and in ancient times the common saying was , ecce quam diligunt christiani ? that execrable delight and joy , which any one takes to accuse , or to find faults in others , he hath from the devil , who is the great accuser of the brethren . it is evident to what a miserable extremity the divisions about church-government , had brought a great nation . from disputing and fighting for this and that form , we at last knew no form at all : every one doing what seemed good in his own eyes . god having justly taken away from both , what was so intemperately desired , and contended for on either side . both episcopacy and presbytery that strive for it , do it surely for this common end , that the people , being taught to know god aright , might glorifie him in their lives and conversations . the people , i say , who are more easily disposed to innovations and disobedience many times , by the artifice and insinuations of a few ; than can be reclaimed again by the authority , eloquence and wisdom of many . they are therefore a commiserable body , and being commonly the masters of error ( the weakest part of whom being their mind and meer servants to the ambition of others ) how much doth it most truly import the sacred function , to be wholly employ'd in saving the souls of these men , from perishing in a famine of spiritual food and nourishment . but while both strive for the rule and form of doing this ( without imputation of ambition or usurpation ) is it not pitty to think the matter should ever come to that pass that one half of the nation must be first destroyed . and instead of settling christs discipline , that no body at this rate , should be left to become christs disciples , whom error or the sword had not devoured . that both may rule and yet not strive , is proposed here by our pious and learned prelate . by which charity and brotherly love may be restored , ( almost wholly extingushed out of the hearts of men , ) and the grain of evil seed sown in place thereof destroy'd ; which hath brought forth ungodliness to this very time . in the mean time it is a work worth propounding , and worthy of the office and industry of all men , in whom is the true fear of god , ( the principle of honour as well as wisdom ) who are followers of either party : that they soften the minds of the tenacious and refractory , and sweeten the spirits of the sowre and morose , that they may say one to another as abraham did to lot , let there be no strife , i pray thee between me and thee , and between my herdmen and thy herdmen , for we be brethren . and let every pious , humble and peaceable overseer and bishop , presbyter and ruler of christs flock , and watchman over the pretious souls of men , so labour at the throne of grace for this weatherbeaten ship of gods church , ( hardly escaping yet the waves of confusion and disorder , ) that she may at last hear an angell from god speaking to her as once to st. paul. fear not beloved , thou must be brought before caesar , and god hath given thee all those that sail with thee . episcopal and presbyterial government conjoyned . by order of the church of england all presbyters are charged a to minister the doctrine and sacraments , and the discipline of christ , as the lord hath commanded , and as this realm hath received the same ; and that they might the better understand what the lord hath commanded therein b , the exhortation of st. paul to the elders of the church of ephesus is appointed to be read unto them at the time of their ordination ; take heed uunto your selves , and to all the flock , among whom the holy ghost hath made you overseers ; to * rule the congregation of god , which he hath purchased with his blood. of the many elders , who in common thus ruled the church of ephesus , there was one president ; whom our saviour in his epistle to that church in a peculiar manner stileth c the angel of the church of ephesus ; and ignatius , in another epistle written about twelve years after unto the same church , calleth the bishop thereof , betwixt which bishop and the presbytery of that church , what an harmonious consent there was in the ordering of the church-goverment , the same ignatius doth fully there declare , by presbytery with d st. paul understanding the company of the rest of the presbyters or elders , who then had a hand not onely in the delivery of the doctrine and sacraments , but also in the administration of the discipline of christ ; for further proof whereof , we have that known testimony of tertullian in his apology for christians e . in the church are used exhortations , chastisements , and divine censure . for judgment is given with great advice as among those who are certain they are in the sight of god ; and it is the chiefest foreshewing of the judgment which is to come , if any man have so offended that he be banished from the communion of prayer , and of the assembly , and of all holy fellowship . the presidents that bear rule therein , are certain approved elders , who have obtained this honour , not by reward , but by a good report ; who were no other ( as he himself elsewhere intimateth ) but those f from whose hands they used to receive the sacrament of the eucharist . for with the bishop who was the chief president ( and therefore stiled by the same tertullian in another place g summus sacerdos for distinction sake ) the rest of the dispensers of the word and sacraments joyned in the common government of the church ; and therefore , where in matters of ecclesiastical judicature , cornelius bishop of rome used the received form of h gathering together the presbyters , of what persons that did consist , cyprian sufficiently declareth , when he wisheth him to read his letters i to the flourishing clergy which there did preside or rule with him , the presence of the clergy being thought to be so requisite in matters of episcopal audience , that in the fourth councel of carthage , it was concluded , k that the bishop might hear no mans cause without the presence of his clergy , and that otherwise the bishops sentence should be void , unless it were confirmed by the presence of the clergy , which we find also to be inserted into the cannons of l egbert , who was arch-bishop of tork in the saxons times , and afterwards into the body of the m canon law it self . true it is , that in our church this kind of presbyterial government hath been long disused , yet seeing it still professeth , that every pastor hath a right to rule the church from whence the name of rector also was given at first unto him ) and to administer the discipline of christ , as well as to dispence the doctrine and sacraments , and the restraint of the exercise of that right proceedeth only from the custom now received in this realm , no man can doubt but by another law of the land this hindrance may be well removed : and how easily this ancient form of government by the united suffrages of the clergy might be revived again , and with what little shew of alteration , the synodical conventions of the pastors of every parish might be accorded with the presidency of the bishops of each diocess and province ; the indifferent reader may quickly perceive by the perusal of the ensuing propositions . i. in every parish the rector or incumbent pastor , together with the churchwardens and sidesmen may every week take notice of such as live scandalously in that congregation , who are to receive such several admonitions and reproofs , as the quality of their offence shall deserve ; and if by this means they cannot be reclaimed , they may be presented unto the next monthly synod ; and in the mean time debarred by the pastor from access to the lords table . ii. whereas by a statute in the 26th year of king henry the eight ( revived in the first of queen elizabeth ) suffiagans are appointed to be erected in twenty six several places of this kingdom , the number of them might very well be conformed unto the number of the several rural deanries into which every diocess is subdivided ; which being done , the suffragan ( supplying the place of those who in the ancient church were called chorepiscopi ) might every month assemble a synod of all the rectors , or incumbent pastors within the precinct , and according to the major part of their voices conclude all matters that should be brought into debate before them . to this synod the rector and church-wardens might present such impenitent persons , as by admonition and suspension from the sacrament , would not be reformed ; who if they should still remain contumacious and incorrigible , the sentence of excommunication might be decreed against them by the synod , and accordingly be executed in the parish where they lived . hitherto also all things that concerned the parochial ministers might be referred , whether they did touch their doctrine or their conversation ; as also the censure of all new opinions , heresies , or schisms , which did arise within that circuit ; with liberty of appeal , if need so require , unto the diocesan synod . iii. the diocesan synod might be held once or twice in the year , as it should be thought most convenient : therein all the suffragans and the rest of the rectors or incumbent pastors ( or a certain select number ) of every deanry within that diocess might meet , with whose consent , or the major part of them , all things might be concluded by the bishop or superintendent ( call him whither you will ) or in his absence by one of the suffragans whom he shall depute in his stead to be moderator of that assembly . here all matters of greater moment might be taken into consideration , and the orders of the monthly synods revised , and ( if need be ) reformed : and if here also any matters of difficulty could not receive a full determination ; it might be referred to the next provincial or national synod . iv. the provincial synod might consist of all the bishops and suffragans , and such other of the clergy as should be elected out of every diocess within the province ; the primate of either province might be moderator of this meeting ( or in his room some one of the bishops appointed by him ) and all matters be ordered therein by common consent as in the former assembly . this synod might be held every third year , and if the parliament do then sit ( according to the act for a triennial parliament ) both the primates and provincial synods of the land might joyn together , and make up a national counsel : wherein all appeals from inferior synods might be received , all their acts examined , and all ecclesiastical constitutions which concern the state of the church of the whole nation established . finis the form of government here proposed , is not in any point repugnant to the scripture , and that the suffragans mentioned in the second proposition , may lawfully use the power both of jurisdiction and ordination , according to the word of god , and the practise of the ancient church . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a64644-e170 luke 9. 55. europae speculum 172. votum pro pace 62. disc. tending to eccles. peace pag. 2. 3. pref. to the power of the keyes . gildas salv. 338. act. 26. 28. pag. 144. pag. 173. rom. 11. 33. char. 1. large declar . 403. 1 king. 19. 11. 12. gen. 3. 8. joh. 18. 14. num. 14. 2. v. 28. juven . sat. 10. joh. 13. 35. rev. 12. 14. 2 esdr. 4. 30. eccles. 10. 24. prov. 1. 7. gen. 13. 8. act. 27. 24. notes for div a64644-e1260 a the form of ordaining of ministers . b ibid. ex act. 20. 17 , 28. * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , so taken in mat. 2. 6. and apoc. 12. 5. & 19. 15. c rev. 2. 1. d 1 tim. 4. 14. e ibidem etiam exhortationes , castigationes & censura divina ; nam & judicatur magno cum pondere ut apud certos de dei conspectu , summumque futuri judicii praeindicium est , si quis ita deliquirit , ut à communicatione orationis & conventus & omnis sancti commercii relege●ur : praesident probars quique seniores , honorem istum non pretiosed . testimonio adepti . tertul. apologet. cap. 39. f nec de aliorum manibus quampraesidentium sumimus , id. de corona militis , cap. 3. g dandiquidem baptismi habet jus summus sacerdos , qui est episcopus , dehinc presbyteri & diaconi . id. de bapt. cap. 17. h omni actu ad me perlato placuit contrahi presbyterium , cornel apud cypr. ep , 46. i florentissimo illic clero te cum praesidenti . cyp. ep . 55. ad cornel. k ut episcopus nullus causam audiat absque praesentia clericorum suorum alioquin irrita erit sententia episcopi nisi clericorum praesenti â confirmetur , conc. car. thag . cap. 23. l excirption . egberti cap 43. m 15 q. 7. cap. nullus . the parochial government answerable to the church session in scotland . the presbyterial monthly synods , answer to the scottish presbyteries or ecclesiastical meetings . diocesan synods answerable to the provincial synods in scotland . the provincial and national synodanswerable to the general assembly in scotland . the reduction of episcopacie unto the form of synodical government received in the ancient church proposed in the year 1641 as an expedient for the prevention of those troubles which afterwards did arise about the matter of church-government / by james usher ; published by nicholas bernard. ussher, james, 1581-1656. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a64679 of text r29579 in the english short title catalog (wing u218). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 26 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 17 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a64679 wing u218 estc r29579 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a64679) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 46533) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1432:28) the reduction of episcopacie unto the form of synodical government received in the ancient church proposed in the year 1641 as an expedient for the prevention of those troubles which afterwards did arise about the matter of church-government / by james usher ; published by nicholas bernard. ussher, james, 1581-1656. [2], 149-176 p. [s.n.], london : 1658. reproduction of original in the university of illinois (urbana-champaign campus). library. eng church of england -government. church polity. a64679 r29579 (wing u218). civilwar no the reduction of episcopacie unto the form of synodical government received in the ancient church proposed in the year 1641 as an expedient ussher, james 1658 4093 43 15 0 0 1 0 166 f the rate of 166 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the f category of texts with 100 or more defects per 10,000 words. 2005-02 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2005-03 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-04 mona logarbo sampled and proofread 2005-04 mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the reduction of episcopacy unto the form of synodical government , received in the ancient church : by the most reverend and learned father of our church dr. james usher , late arch-bishop of armagh , and primate of all ireland . proposed in the year 1641. as an expedient for the prevention of those troubles , which afterwards did arise about the matter of church-government . published by nicholas bernard . d. d. preacher to the honourable society of grayes-inne , london . london , printed , anno domini , 1658. to the reader . the originall of this was given me by the most reverend primate , some few years before his death , wrote throughout with his own hand , and of late i have found it subscribed by himself , and doctor holseworth , and with a marginal note at the first proposition , which i have also added . if it may now answer the expectation of many pious , and prudent persons , who have desired the publishing of it , as a seasonable preparative to some moderation in the midst of those extreams , which this age abounds with , it will attain the end intended by the authour : and it is likely to be more operative , by the great reputation he had , and hath in the hearts of all good men , being far from the least suspicion to be byassed by any privivate ends , but onely ayming at the reducing of order , peace , and unity , which god is the authour of , and not of confusion . for the recovery of which , it were to be wished , that such as do consent in substantials , for matter of doctrine , would consider of some conjunction in point of discipline , that private interest and circumstantials , might not keep them thus far asunder . grayes-inne , octob. 13. 1657. n. bernard . the reduction of episcopacy unto the form of synodical government , received in the ancient church ; proposed in the year 1641 , as an expedidient for the prevention of those troubles , which afterwards did arise about the matter of church-government . episcopal and presbyterial government conjoyned . by order of the church of england , all presbyters are charged a to administer the doctrine and sacraments , and the discipline of christ , as the lord hath commanded , and as this realme hath received the same ; and that they might the better understand what the lord had commanded therein , b the exhortation of saint paul , to the elders of the church of ephesus is appointed to be read unto them at the time of their ordination ; take heed unto your selves , and to all the flock among whom the holy ghost hath made you overseers to c rule the congregation of god , which he hath purchased with his blood . of the many elders , who in common thus ruled the church of ephesus , there was one president , whom our saviour in his epistle unto this church in a peculiar manner stileth d the angell of the church of ephesus : and ignatius in another epistle written about twelve yeares after unto the same church , calleth the bishop thereof . betwixt the bishop and the presbytery of that church , what an harmonius consent there was in the ordering of the church-government , the same ignatius doth fully there declare , by the presbytery , with e saint paul , understanding the community of the rest of the presbyters , or elders , who then had a hand not onely in the delivery of the doctrine and sacraments , but also in the administration of the discipline of christ : for further proof of which , we have that known testimony of tertullian in his general apology for christians . f in the church are used exhortations , chastisements , and divine censure ; for judgement is given with great advice as among those , who are certain they are in the sight of god , and in it is the chiefest foreshewing of the judgement which is to come , if any man have so offended , that he be banished from the communion of prayer , and of the assembly , and of all holy fellowship . the presidents that bear rule therein are certain approved elders , who have obtained this honour not by reward , but by good report , who were no other ( as he himself intimates ) elsewhere but g those from whose hands they used to receive the sacrament of the eucharist . for with the bishop , who was the chiefe president ( and therefore stiled by the same tertullia● in another place , h summus sacerdos for distinction sake ) the rest of the dispensers of the word and sacraments joyned in the common government of the church ; and therefore , where in matters of ecclesiasticall judicature , cornetius bishop of rome used the received forme of i gathering together the presbytery ; of what persons that did consist , cyprian sufficiently declareth , when he wisheth him to read his letters k to the flourishing clergy : which there did preside , or rule with him : the presence of the clergy being thought to bee so requisite in matters of episcopall audience , that in the fourth counc●ll of c 〈…〉 ge it was concluded , l that the bishop might hear no mans cause without the presence of 〈◊〉 clergy : and that otherwise the 〈…〉 ops sentence should be void , unlesse it were confirmed by the presence of the clergy : which we find also to be inserted into the canons of m egbert , who was arch-bishop of york in the saxon times , and afterwards into the body of the n cannon law it self . true it is , that in our church this kinde of presbyterial government hath been long disused , yet seeing it still professeth that every pastor hath a right to rule the church ( from whence the mame of rector also was given at first unto him ) and to administer the discipline of christ , as well as to dispense the doctrine and sacraments , and the restraint of the exercise of that right proceedeth onely from the custome now received in this realm ; no man can doubt , but by another law of the land , this hinderance may be well removed . and how easily this ancient form of government by the united suffrages of the clergy might be 〈…〉 ved again , and with what lit 〈…〉 〈…〉 ew of alteration the synodical conventions of the pasters of every parish might be accorded with the presidency of the bishops of each diocese and province , the indifferent reader may quickly perceive by the perusal of the ensuing propositions . i. in every parish the rector , or incumbent pastor , together with the church-wardens and sides-men , may every week take notice of such as live scandalously in that congregation , who are to receive such several admonitions and reproofs , as the quality of their offence shall deserve ▪ and if by this means they cannot be reclaimed , they may be presented to the next monethly synod ; and in the mean time debarred by the pastor from accesse unto the lords table . ii. whereas by a statute in the six and twentieth year of king henry the eighth ( revived in the first year of queen elizabeth ) suffragans are appointed to be erected in 26 several places of this kingdom ; the number of them might very well be conformed unto the number of the several rural deanries into which every diocese is subdivided ; which being done , the suffragan supplying the place of those , who in the ancient church were called chorepiscopi , might every moneth assemble a synod of all the rectors , or incumbent pastors within the precinct , and according to the major part of their voyces , coclude all matters that shall be brought into debate before them . to this synod the rector and church-wardens might present such impenitent persons , as by admonitions and suspension from the sacrament would not be reformed ; who if they should still remain contumacious and incorrigible , the sentence of excommunication might be decreed against them by the synod , and accordingly be executed in the parish where they lived . hitherto also all things that concerned the parochial ministers might be referred , whether they did touch their doctrine , or their conversation ' as also the censure of all new opiuions , heresies , and schismes , which did arise within that circuit ; with liberty of appeal , if need so require , unto the diocesan synod . iii. the diocesan synod might be held , once , or twice in the year , as it should be thought most convenient : therein all the suffragans , and the rest of the rectors , or incumbent pasters ( or a certain select number of of every deanry ) within the dio●ese might meet , with whose consent , or the major part of them , all things might be concluded by the bishop , or * saperintendent ( call him whether you will ) or in his absence , by one of the suffragans ; whom he shall depute in his stead to be moderator of that assembly . here all matters of greater moment might be taken into consideration , and the orders of the monthly synodes revised , and ( if need be ) reformed : and if here also any ma●ter of difficulty could not receive a full determination : it might be referred to the next provincial , or national synod . iv. the provincial synod might consist of all the bishops and suffragans , and such other of the clergy as should be elected out of every diocese within the province , the arch-bishop of either province , might be the moderator of this meeting , ( or in his room some one of the bishops appointed by him ) and all mat●ers be ordered therein by common consent as in the former assemblies . this synod might be held every third year , and if the parliament do then sit ( according to the act of a triennial parliament ) both the arch-bishops and provincial synods of the land might joyn together , and make up a national councel : wherein all appeals from infer 〈…〉 ur synods might be received , all their acts examined , and all ecclesiastical constitutions which concerne the state of the church of the whole nation established . we are of the judgement that the form of government here proposed is not in any point repugnant to the scripture ; and that the suffragans mentioned in the second proposition , may lawfully use the power both of jurisdiction and ordination , according to the word of god , and the practice of the ancient church . ja. armachanus . rich. holdsworth . after the proposal of this , an. 1641. many quaeries were made , and doubts in point of conscience resolved by the primate , divers passages of which he heth left under his own hand , shewing his pious endeavours to peace and unity , which how far it then prevailed , is out of season now to relate , only i wish it might yet be thought of to the repairing of the breach , which this division hath made , and that those , who are by their office messengers of peace , and whose first word to cach house should be peace , would earnestly promote it , within the walls of their mother-church , wherein they were educated , and not thus by contending about circumstantials lose the substance , and make our selves a prey to the adversary of both , who rejoyce in their hearts , saying , so would we have it . which are the primates works , and which not . a catalogue of the works already printed of doctor james usher , late arch-bishop of armagh , and primate of all ireland , which are owned by him . in latine . de ecclesiarum christianarum successione & statu. quarto , londini , 1613. epistolarum hibernicarum sylloge , 4o . dublinii 1630. historia goteschalci , 4o . dublinii 1631. de primordiis ecclesiarum britanicarum , 4o . dublinii 1639. ignatii epistolae cum annotationibus , 4o . oxoniae 1645. de anno solari macedonum , 8o . londini 1648. annales veteris testamenti , fol. londini 1650. annales novi testamenti usque ad extremum templi & reipublicae judaicae excidium , &c. fol. londini 2654. epistola ad capellum de variantibus textus hebraici lectionibus , 4o . londinii 1652. de graeca septuaginta interpretum versione syntagma 4o . londini 1655. these four last are sold by john crook , at the ship in st. paul's church-yard . in english . an answer to a challènge made by the jesuite malone in ireland , anno 1631. a sermon preached before the house of commons , febr. 18. 1618. a declaration of the visibility of the church , preached in a sermon before king james , june 20. 1624. a speech delivered in the castle-chamber in dublin , the 22. of november , 1622. the religion profest by the ancient irish and brittains , 4o . 1631. these five are bound together in quarto . immanuel , or the incarnation of the son of god , 4o . dublin . 1639. a geographical description of the lesser asia , 4o . oxford , 1644. the judgement of doctor reynolds , touching the original of episcopacy more largely confirmed out of antiquity , an. 1641. his discourse of the original of bishops and metropolitanes , in 4o . oxford , 1644. his small catechisme re-viewed , 12o . london , 1654. ☞ his aforesaid annals of the old and new testament ; with the synchronismus of heathen story to the destruction of jerusalem , translated out of latin into english now at the presse , fol. to be sold by john crook , at the ship in st. pauls church-yard . in regard there have been , and are divers books printed , which go under the name of the late arch-bishop of armagh , but are not his , and more may be obtruded to the injury of him , i have thought fit , at the request of the printer , to give the reader this advertisement following . in anno● 1640. there was a book printed , entitled the bishop of armaghs direction to the house of parliament , concerning the liturgy and episcopal government , and anno 1641. another book entitled vox hiberniae , being some pretended notes of his , at a publick fas● . both these at his petition were suppressed by order from the house of lords and commons , 11. feb. 1641. and i hope will not be revived . in anno 1651. a book called ( a method for meditation , or a manual of divine duties , which most injuriously is printed in his name , but is none of his , which he directed me then to declare publickly as from him , yet in 1657. it is again reprinted to his great dishonour . for his small catechisme the reader is to take notice , that there was a false one printed without his knowledge , and is still sold for his . the injury he received by it compelled him to review it , with an epistle of his own before it , which is the mark to know the right edition , though being framed for his private use in his younger yeares , ( about 23. ) he had no intention of it for the publick . if any sermon-notes taken from him have been printed in his life-time under his name , or shall be hereafter ) which divers have of late attempted ) the reader is to take notice that it was against his minde , and that they are disowned , by him , which as he endeavoured to his utmost to suppresse , while he was living , so it was his fear to be injured in it after his death . for a further confirmation of which , i shall give you part of a letter of his , while he was bishop of meath , ( upon the like intention of a printer , who had gotten into his hands some notes of his sermons , said to be preached by him in london , and was about to publish them ) which he wrote to doctor featly , chaplain to the then arch-bishop of canterbury for the stopping of them , in these words . i beseech you to use all your power to save me from that disgrace , which undiscreet and covetous men go about to fasten upon me , or else i must be driven to protest against their injurious dealings with me , and say as donatus once did , mala illis sit , qui me● festinant edere ante me . but i repose cenfidence in you , that you will take order that so great a wrong as this may not be done unto me . remember me to worthy doctor goad , and forget not in your prayers . dublin , sept. 16. 1622. your most assured loving friend , and fellow labourer ja. medensis . that book entitled the summe and substance of christian religion , some of the materials with the method are his , collected by him in his yonger years , for his own private use : but , being so unpolished , defective , and full of mistakes , he was much displeased at the publishing of it in his name . and though it be much commended at home , and by ludovicus crocius abroad , yet that he did disown it as it is now set forth , this letter following , wrote to mr. john downham , ( who caused it to be printed ) doth sufficiently confirm , as followeth . sir , you may be pleased to take notice , that the catechisme you write of is none of mine , but transcribed out of mr , cartwrights catechisme , and mr. crooks , and some other english divines , but drawn together in one method , as a kind of common-place-book , where other mens judgements and reasons are simply laid down , though not approved in all points by the collector ; besides that the collection ( such as it is ) being lent abroad to divers in scattered sheets , hath for a great part of it miscarried , the one half of it as i suppose ( well nigh ) being no way to be recovered , so that so imperfect a thing copied verbatim out of others , and in divers places dissonant from mine own judgement , may not by any meanes be owned by me ; but if it shall seem good to any industrious person to cut off what is weak and superfluous therein , and supply the wants thereof , and cast it into a new mould of his own framing , i shall be very well content that he make what use he pleaseth of any the materials therein , and set out the whole in his own name : and this is the resolution of may 13. 1645. your most assured loving friend ja. armachanus . a book entituled confessions and proofs of protestant divines of reformed churches for episcopacy , &c. though it be a very learned one , yet it is not his ; onely that of the original of bishops and metropolitans ( frequently bound up with the former ) is owned by him . unto which he was earnestly moved by a letter from doctor hall , the late reverend and learned bishop of norwich , then bishop of exeter ; which , shewing the great esteem he had of him , is annexed as followeth . to the most reverend father in god , and my most honoured lord , the lord arch-bishop of armagh , and primate of ireland . most reverend , and my most worthily honoured , lord . that which fell from me yesterday , suddenly and transcursively , hath since taken up my after-midnight thoughts , and i must crave leave , what i then moved , to importune , that your grace would be pleased to bestow one sheet of paper upon these distracted times , in the subject of episcopacy , shewing the apostolical original of it , and the grounds of it from scripture , and the immediately succeeding antiquity ; every line of it coming from your graces hand , would be super rotas suas : as solomons expression is , very apples of gold , with pictures of silver , and more worth than volumes from us : think , that i stand before you like the man of macedon , and that you hear me say , come and help us : and as your grace is wholly given up to the common good of the church , say , whether you can deny it ? and if please your grace to take your rise from my humble motion to expresse your self in this question , wherein i am publickly interested , or otherwise , to professe your voluntary resolutions for the setling of many , either misled , or doubting soules , it will be the most acceptable , and ( i hope ) the most successefull work that your grace hath ever undertaken ; it was my earnest motion long ago to ( {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) to intreat this labour from your grace ; which now comes from my meannesse ; your gracious humility will not even from so low hands disregard it ; with my zealous suit , and hopefull expectation of a yeilding answer , i humbly take leave , and am your graces humbly , and heartily devoted jos. exon. finis ▪ notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a64679e-430 a the book of ordination . b ●●id , ex act. 20 , 27 , 28. c {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . so taken in mat. 2. 6. and rev. 12. 5. and 19. 15. d rev. 2. 1. e 1 tim. 4. 14. f ibidem etiam exhortationes , castigationes & censura divina ; nam & judicatur magno cum p●●dere ut apud cert●s de dei conspectu , summú nque futuri judicii p●aeiudicium est . si quis ita deli 〈…〉 , ut à commu●●catione . o●ationis & conventus , & omnis sancti commecii relegetur president proba●● quique seniores , honorem istum non pretio , sed testimonio adepti . t●●tul . apologet. cap. 39. g 〈◊〉 de 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 manibus 〈◊〉 praesidentium s●m●mus , 〈◊〉 de coro●● 〈◊〉 , cap. 3. h dan●● quidem 〈◊〉 hab● 〈◊〉 sum 〈…〉 〈◊〉 ; qui 〈◊〉 episcopus : 〈◊〉 pres●y●●i & 〈◊〉 ▪ 〈◊〉 de bapt , cap. 17. i omni actu ad 〈◊〉 perlate ●la 〈…〉 contra 〈…〉 , 〈◊〉 apud 〈◊〉 epi●● . 46. k florenti 〈…〉 〈◊〉 〈…〉 cum 〈◊〉 cy 〈…〉 epist. 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 cornel . l ut episcopu● nullius causam audiet absque praesentia clericorum suoram , alioquin irrita erit sententia episcopi nise clericorum praesentiâ confirmetur , concil. carthag . iv. cap. 23. m excerption . egberti , c. 43. n 15. q. 7. cap. nullus . how the church might syn●dically be governed , arch-bishops and ●ish●ps being still retained , * {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , id est , superintendentes ; unde & nomen episcopi trastum est , hi●ron , epist. 86. ad evagrium . unity our duty. in twelve considerations humbly presented to the godly, reverend, and learned brethren of the presbyterian judgement; and the dissenting godly, reverend, and learned brethren, commonly called independant; contending together about church governement. which tends earnestly to dissvvade them from bitter speaking, and writing one against another. by i. p. licensed and published according to order. price, john, citizen of london. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a90974 of text r6462 in the english short title catalog (thomason e26_14). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 24 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 6 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a90974 wing p3350 thomason e26_14 estc r6462 99872998 99872998 154991 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a90974) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 154991) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 5:e26[14]) unity our duty. in twelve considerations humbly presented to the godly, reverend, and learned brethren of the presbyterian judgement; and the dissenting godly, reverend, and learned brethren, commonly called independant; contending together about church governement. which tends earnestly to dissvvade them from bitter speaking, and writing one against another. by i. p. licensed and published according to order. price, john, citizen of london. [2], 9, [1] p. pinted [sic] by t. paine, for john hancock, and are to be sold at his shop at the entrance into popes-head ally out of cornhill, london : 1645. attributed to john price. cf. nuc pre-1956. reproduction of the original in the british library. annotation on thomason copy reads: the 5 in the imprint date is crossed out and altered to 1644; "janu: 31st". eng church polity -early works to 1800. a90974 r6462 (thomason e26_14). civilwar no unity our duty.: in twelve considerations humbly presented to the godly, reverend, and learned brethren of the presbyterian judgement; and price, john, citizen of london 1645 4371 27 0 0 0 0 0 62 d the rate of 62 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the d category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-02 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-02 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-03 jonathan blaney sampled and proofread 2007-03 jonathan blaney text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion unity ovr duty . in twelve considerations humbly presented to the godly , reverend , and learned brethren of the presbyterian judgement ; and the dissenting godly , reverend , and learned brethren , commonly called independant ; contending together about church government . which tends earnestly to disswade them from bitter speaking , and writing one against another . by i. p. phil. 2. 3. that nothing be done through strife or vaine glory , but that in meek●nesse of minde every man esteeme other better then himselfe . james 3. 14 , 15 , 16 , 17. but if ye have bitter envying , and strife in your hearts rejoyce not , neither be lyers against the truth . this wisedome descendeth not from above , but is earthly , sensuall , and devilish . for where envie and strife is , there is sedition and all manner of evill workes . but the wisedome that is from above is first pure , then peaceable , gentle , and easie to be intreated , full of mercy and good fruits without judging , and without hypocrisie . rom. 14. 19 let us then follow those things which make for peace , and wherewith one may edifie another . licensed and published according to order . london , pinted by t. paine , for john hancock , and are to be sold at his shop at the entrance into popes-head ally out of cornhill . 164● . vnity ovr dvty . in twelve considerations humbly presented to the godly , reverend , and learned brethren of the presbyterian judgement , and the dissenting godly , reverend , and learned brethren , commonly called independent , contending together about chvrch governement . the errors of the times doth abunantly vindicate the defect of our faith in the knowledge of the truth , and the divisions of the times the defect of our love in the prosecution of the same , the forme of sound words is to be held fast in faith and love , 2 tim. 1. 13. the devouring sword abroad , and the deviding pen at home , rendreth our condition very neere the pit of distruction , and that by a divine hand of justice ? for as the want of sound knowledge argueth the weakenesse of our heads , ( and so our unprofitablenes for god ) so the want of love the rottennesse of our hearts , and what shall god doe with a weake headed and rotten hearted people . it is hard to say whether is the saddest omen of our approaching misery ; either the unhappie divisions of our owne party , or betweene our selves and the common enemy , whose promising advantage against our selves in that particular , is their greatest hopes , and our greatest feare ; they are united , we divided ; they are all one against us , & each of us one against his brother , unity acteth the sons of error & division the sons of truth , which is as if the good should with the wicked , change quallities , and yet retaine priviledges ; the spirit of pride , peevishnesse ▪ ●ssion , perversenesse , mallice , confidence , envy and emulation doth apparently look ( as through a lettice ) ▪ through these late times of contention about church discipline , betweene ( i hope ) godly parties on each side , which is as sad in it selfe as the consequence , ( if not prevented ) are like to be ; the melancholy and serious observation whereof hath cast mee upon these present , suddaine , but seasonable thoughts , which i have moulded into severall considerations and motives unto a more sweete , christian , and lovely demeanour of our selves in our mutuall pleadings and writing against one another unhappily dissenting about the truth , first consider the minde of god , revealed in the scriptures about the same who hath commanded us , to love one another , john 15. 17. to follow the truth in love , ephes. 4 15 ▪ to provoke one another to love , heb. 10. 24. to reduce the fallen brethren either in judgement or practise with the spirit of meekenesse , bearing one anothers burthens , and so fulfilling the law of christ , oal . 6. 1 , 2. to take heede of biting and devouring one another , least we bee consnmed one of another , gal. 5. 15. to walke by the same rule so farre as we have mutually attained , and if any be contrary minded , to wiate with christian respect and love in confidence that god will seasonally reveale the truth unto the mistaken , phil. 3. 15 , 16. to bee kindly affectioned one towards another with brotherly love in honour , preferring one another , rom. 10. 12. and that this love should not be complementall , but without dissemulation , rom. 12. 9. with a pure heart fervently , 1 pet. 1. 22. in deede and in truth , 1 john 3. 18. that this brotherly love should continue , heb. 13. 1. and be daily increasing and abounding one towards another , 1 thes. 3. 12. with many other scriptures of the like importance . consider the patterne which is set before you , god is love , and he that dwelleth in love , dwelleth in god , and god in him , 1 john 4. 16. wee differ from god in heart , in life , in judgement , in practise , and yet still god is love , the father himselfe loveth you , john ▪ 16. 27. be ye therefore followers of god as deare children , and walke in love , ephes. 5. 1 , 2. the sonne hath loved you ▪ in nature , kinde , and degree , even as the father hath loved the sonne , john 15. 9. that is infinitely , eternally , and in things infinite ▪ there are not degrees of comparison , he gave himselfe ( a measure of his love to us ) then the which there could be no greater love , john 15. 13. the inference from hence is verse 17. that ye love one another , the holy spirit is a spirit of love , 2 tim. 1. 7. and the fruit of it is love , gal. 5. 22. and where ever it is in truth , it knits the heart with the saints in love , colos. 2. 2. rooting and grounding them in love , ephes. 3. 17. causing not onely the report of their faith in christ jesus , but also of their love to all saints to be heard abroad in the world , colos. 1. 4. the father , the sonne , the holy spirit loveth us not withstanding our vast and infinite disproportion and difference from this holy trinity in our judgements , wills , affections , lives , and conversations , and surely they that are taught of god do love one another , 1 thes. 4 9. consider how sweetly , and kindly the almighty treateth with the sonnes of men , his words are soft breaking our bonds , prov. 25. 15. and his writings are words of reconsiliation ▪ sending his embassadors to beseech us , and most kindly to pray us in christs name and stead to bee reconciled unto god , 2 cor. 5. 20. thirdly consider , wee cannot as yet bee all of one minde , which is our affliction as well as our sinne , yet may we be all of one heart , the fallings wherein is more our sin then our sorrow , unity in judgement is the promised blessing of another age , but unity in affection is our present duty , though we cannot speake all the same things of saith , though our difference in judgement , yet we may all speake the same things of love through the unity of our affections ; though wee cannot agree in all things , which should be all our griefe , yet we all agree in this thing , to strive together to know the truth as it is in jesus , which calles for our love to one another , god in christ , and christ in god is the pure spring of that divine love which is alwaies running from god to christ , and from christ to god , the streames whereof doe cheare the hearts of all the saints , but the saints in christ and christ in saints should make each lovely in each others eyes , our mutual interest in jesus christ should make us value each other as pretious jewells which god will make up in the day of his glory , mal. 3. 17 we are all acceptable to god in the beloved , ephes. 1. 6 , and why not then unto one another . fourthly , consider , we all know but in part . 1 cor. 13. 9. and therefore none are so perfectly acquainted with one truth that he needs no further light about the same , and it is to beconceived that the errors of judgement in the godly , ariseth not from the love of error , but the mistake of truth ; so that the light of the saints possibly may be dim ; and their darkenesse or ignorance not absolutely without or utterly remote from some light : they ought therefore to here on another patiently , and to beare with one another kindly , it is the propertie of the father of lights ▪ and ▪ of the sonne of righteousnesse , the light of the world that in him should be all light and no darkenesse at all : he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in light , for god is light . he that saith he is in light , and hateth his brother is in darkenesse , and walketh in darkenesse . ( notwithstanding his great presumption of his large abilities . ) he knoweth not whether he goeth , because that darkenesse hath blinded his eyes . verse 11. fifthly , consider a passionate , peevish , froward , pettish , perverse professor is seldome acquainted with the truth as it is in jesus , meeknesse encapableth a man to receive the truth . iames 1. 21. a froward heart and a perverse tongue , or pen commonly goeth together , and salomon saith that one findeth no good , and the other falleth into mischiefe , pro. 17. 20. he that thinketh he knoweth nothing as he ought to know is in the sweetest capacity to be taught of the father , who filleth the hungry with good things , but sendeth the rich empty away . resisting the proude , he giveth grace to the humble , the lord guideth the meeke in judgement , and them will he teach his way . psal. 25. 9. those who are become like weaned children doth he teach knowledge , and understand doctrine . esay 28. 9. a froward heart , tongue , or pen , is an abomination unto the lord , and therefore the secrets of the lord cannot be with such swelling words commonly come from shallow braines ; and the most ignorant are most conceited ; with the lowly there is wisedome . pro. 21. 2. a rayling tongue or pen is like the rageing waves foming out it's owne sham● . jude 13. the lord teacheth the lowly person , and such is fit to teach his brother . sixtly , consider how much men preiudiceth the truth by apassionate endeavour to vindicate the same , rayling language and invective lines ▪ vailes the truth that it cannot be seene , who loves to drinke in troubled waters ? or puddle streames ? when mens foame of mallice , envie and discontent , appeare ▪ in the surface of their peevish lines , who will looke for truth therein ▪ a smooth pen shall not bewitch me , for i will examine what it affirmes . a scolding dialect shall not corrupt me , for i will never bestow the paines to read it , truth hath never need of passion , but oft of patience . a froward pen oft times stir up other mens passions , but seldome setleth any mans judgement , frowardnesse raiseth up frowardnesse , and strife stirreth up strife , and both together rejoyceth the divell and sporteth his children , and the truth is neglected all the while : he that endeavors to conquer error with good successe , must bring along with him meekenesse and truth , and having both may ride on and prosper . psal. 45. 4. seventhly . men doe seldome contend for truth in a rayling dialect , it is mistery more then truth that is so sought out , passion , envie , hatred , mallice are the fruits of the flesh , and can these contend for their distroyer the spirit of truth ? an unbridled tongue , a licentious pen , is the common charracter of a rotten heart , 1 james 26. the passion of the pen above that of the tongue is the more dangerous signe that the heart is rotten : a passionate tongue doth many times argue the distempers of the head , when the consent of the heart cannot begotten ▪ but a rayling pen doth clearly evince the hearts mallice , commanding the head to subserve the same , a passionate tongue doth often declare a man robbed of his reason , but a passionate pen doth more clearely evince a man robbed of the truth , for his reason is ranged in his malicious lines , the passion of the tongue doth largely proclaime sin in the heart , but the passion of the pen the heart in sin , for deliberation , invention , memory , witt , reason , all are commanded by that heart of sin , truth triumphs only in tittle , but pride and arrogancy in the matter it selfe . eightly , consider how doth it gratifie the designes of the adversarie , that the saints should thus wrangle each with his brother , how doth this cheare up the popish , episcopall , presbyteriall , independent , antinominicall , annabaptisticall , jesuite : for i presume the jesuite personates them all : and whose ends we prosecute by our unhappie divisions amongst our selves , how is this told in gath , and published in askalon , how doe the daughters of the philistims rejoyce ? and the daughters of the uncircumcised triumph ? how doe they jeare at our discord ▪ that we our selves proves thornes in one anothers eyes , and goade in one anothers sides ? boasting that they lasht us with rods , but we our selves with scorpions , and that our own little fingers will be heavier upon one another , then their loines were upon us all . they opprest us and we were pitied of all , we oppresse our selves and then who pitieth us : they ruin'd us by an usurpation , and shal we strive to ruine one another by a law ? they crush't us by the heavie sentences of the heigh commission , & star chamber , & shal we endeavour to do the same by the authority of parliament ? if we love not one another , let us love our selves , for each undermineth his owne security by circumventing his brothers peace . ninthly , consider how do saints loose in each others hearts , when they gall and greive and vex one another in each others pen . to give milke and honey for vinegar and gall , blessing for cursing , kind words for bitter language , this is indeed our duty , but hereunto who hath attained ? and shall we tempt one another with such provocations ▪ sorrow and trouble , persecution and affliction , envie and mallice , evill speaking and railing , we expect from the world , but bitter quarter from bitter people : the saints should be each others shelter , we doe not gather grapes from thornes , not briers from vines , men doe not gather figs from thistles , nor prickles from figg trees . churlish language i expect from a nabell , not from a david , scoffs from an ismael not from an isaack , rayling from a rabsheika , not from an hezekiah , dungeons from an ahab , not from a michaiah , prisons from an herod , not from iohn the baptist , chaines from a nero , not from a paul , banishment from flavius domitian , not from iohn the evangelist , jeares from a iulian , not from a christian . no , no , gentlenesse and meekenesse , love and peace , kindnesse and goodnesse , bowells of mercy and compassion from the hearts and tongues , the hands and pens of all wherein dwells the spirit of christ . but when our expectations are failed , looking for peace with ieremie and no good comes , for helpe from the saints and behold trouble . when our brethren turnes dragons , as iob saith , and we are companions to owles even birds of prey : how will our bowels boyle and resteth not , our harpe turnes into mourning , and our organs into the voice of them that weepe ? job 30. 29. 31. hard speeches and heavie hands upon the saints of god from great professors , proud lookes , and swelling words have formerly been the certaine prognosticks of approaching apostacy : and that charracter seldome failes . as for my part god give me favour in the eyes of those who are his favourites , love in their hearts , intrest in their prayers , and make me to the uttmost a friend and a favourer of them , however they differ from me in my judgement . tenthly , consider , wrangling , writing , and rayling language each against other in our owne party , hastneth our distruction ▪ and hindreth our reformation and who but a jesuite delighteth herein ? what is it which obstructeth the parliament assemblie , or armies , but our unhappie divisions amongst our selves ? we want love , and where love is not , where is our piety ? and where there is no unity , there is as little policie . for my part the unhappie quarrell between presbyterian and independent speaketh as sadly to me , and threatneth as sorely , as the wofull distance between king and parliament , and the happie reconciliation of the former parties would quit my thoughts of the feare of the latter , and happie should that man be called by this present age , which should prove an instrument of so good a worke , but where is that pen of peace ? and that heart of love ? that spirit of meekenesse ? and that head of wisedome ? how beautifull should the very feet of those be which could bring such tydings of joy to this kingdome . eleventhly , consider , the difference is more in the heart then in the head , in the affections then in the judgement ▪ which is more dangerous because lesse reconcileable , a gracious heart commands the head to hearken to truth , but a more sound head cannot command a perverse mind , the difference betweene the parties we speake of is more in shew , then in deed and truth , the presbyterian is departed from episcopacy . the independent questions such and such a qualified presbyterie , but they that are godly of both parties , are not engaged past a retreat to the truth of god . who ever can shew it , could each of us lovingly here his brother , happily each might be bettered by the other , those that are the strongest antagonists about discipline suppose it a peice of policie , not of divinity , and is it policie for the saints to ruine one another ? inteligent men are of opinion that i● each partie would with meekenesse and patience here one another , reconciliation between them would attend the issue , and shall we destroy one another before we will give one another the heating ? what aparrant untruths , and grosse mistakes even in matters of fact have beene reported of their dissenting brethren ; for want of hearing them speake for themselves ? i could instance in many in mine owne observations , but that the making up , and not the widenning of breaches is my present purpose . twelfthly , consider the deare relation wherein we stand each to other in jesus christ , have we not the same lord ? the same faith ? the same baptisme ? did not we all lie together as it were in the same wombe of the almighties gratious purpose ? are we not all the price of the same ransome ? the redeemed of the same saviour ? doth not the same spirit of jesus breath in our hearts ? the same blood of jesus runne in our veines ? are we not all brethren in the faith ? and shall brethren reproach brethren ? brethren rayle against brethren ? brethren undermine the peace and comfort of one another , is it brotherly to discover one anothers weakenesses , failings , and indiscretions ? brethren accuse brethren ? brethren betray brethren ? what! brethren without bowells ? without naturall affection to brethren ? who but a cain will seeke the ruine of a brother abell , because his holy services are more acceptable then his owne ? who but a ham will betray the nakednesse of his owne familie ? god put enmity between satan and saints , but satan puts enmity between saints and saints ; whose workes they doe that foment the same . an ungodly man diggeth up evill , and in his lips there is a burning fire , and a froward man soweth strife , and a whisperer separateth chiefe freinds . pro. 16. 27. 28. and it is a wicked man that walketh with a froward mouth , pro. 6. 12. and shall such be found among the saints ? oh where is that spirit which should knit our hearts together in love ? are wee not all members of the same body ? if one suffer doe not all suffer ? and shall we persecute one another ? if one be disgrac'd doe we not all blush ? and shall we shame one another ? is love the signe of a disciple of christ ? and shall we hate one another ? doth not each member need his fellow : and shall each destroy each other ? is the body of christ the horrid monster of these monstrous times ? is it thus amongst turkes , and pagans , mahumitans , atheists , or papists ? doe malignants thus penne it against malignants , cavaliers against cavaliers ? are there such bitter words or bitting language ? such harsh sayings or hard speakings to be heard in the camp of our adversaries ? deare sirs is it truth or trouble you thus persue ? if the truth , fight for it in its own way , it calls for your love to it self & children & not for your ranckor , for your paines & not your passion , it calls for helpe and not for hindrance , if truth doth reigne , why scratch you her with a crowne of thornes , giving her vinegar and gall to drinke , if truth be queene her royall attendance and maids of honour should be love , and meekenesse , gentlenesse and goodnesse , kindnesse and mercy , forbearance and pitty . why doe men vex her with pride & passion , strife & contention , frowardnes and anger ? her kingdome is peace , her commands are love , her royall law to her ●oyal subjects is follow the truth together in love , ephes. 4. 15. lyons & wolves , beares & tigars , dragons and ultars , with such hurtfull creatures becomes the shady wildernesse of the wicked world , but none that doe destroy should once approach the lords holy mountaine . it becomes toads to belch out venome , and hellish furies to spit fire , each at other ▪ and not the saints of the most high god , shall they dig out one anothers bowels , rend one anothers name , plunder one anothers reputes dearest sirs turne your swords into plowshares , and your speares into pruineing hookes , and learne no more to warr one against another . esay 2. 4 let the wolfe dwell with the lambe , and the leopard lie downe with the kid , and a child by truth leade them both ▪ let no corrupt communication come out of your mouth ( or pen ) but that which is good for the use of edifying , that may administer grace to the hearers , and readers , and let all bitternesse and wrath and anger , clamour and evill speaking ( or writing ) be put away from you , with all mallice ▪ and be yee kind one to another , tender hearted ▪ forgiving one another , as god for christs sake hath forgiven you . ephes. 4 29. 31. 32. finis . a briefe catechisme concerning church-governemnt. by that reverend divine mr. iohn robinson, and may fitly be adjoyned to mr. perkins six principles as an appendix thereto. robinson, john, 1575?-1625. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a91890 of text r208369 in the english short title catalog (thomason e1105_1). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 29 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 8 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a91890 wing r1693 thomason e1105_1 estc r208369 99867326 99867326 119633 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a91890) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 119633) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 163:e1105[1]) a briefe catechisme concerning church-governemnt. by that reverend divine mr. iohn robinson, and may fitly be adjoyned to mr. perkins six principles as an appendix thereto. robinson, john, 1575?-1625. perkins, william, 1558-1602. foundation of christian religion. [16] p. [s.n.], london : printed in the yeare, 1642. signatures: a. annotation on thomason copy: an "x" above robinson in title; "x a separatist at leyden" written beneath the author statement. reproduction of the original in the british library. eng catechisms, english -early works to 1800. church polity -early works to 1800. a91890 r208369 (thomason e1105_1). civilwar no a briefe catechisme concerning church-governemnt.: by that reverend divine mr. iohn robinson, and may fitly be adjoyned to mr. perkins six robinson, john 1642 4677 5 15 0 0 0 0 43 d the rate of 43 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the d category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-04 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-04 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-05 pip willcox sampled and proofread 2007-05 pip willcox text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a briefe catechisme concerning chvrch-government by that reverend divine mr. iohn robinson , and may fitly be adjoyned to mr. perkins six principles as an appendix thereto . 1 tim. 3. 14. these things i write hoping to come unto thee shortly . 1 tim. 3. 15. but if i tarry long , that thou mayst know how thou oughtest to behave thy selfe in the house of god , which is the church of the living god , the pillar and ground of the truth . london , printed in the yeare , 1642. an appendix to mr. perkins his six principles of christian religion . vnto the former principles published by that reverend man mr. william perkins , fully containing what every christian is to beleeve touching god and himselfe , i have thought it fit for the good , especially of those over whom i am set , ( the younger sort of whom i have formerly catechised in private , according to the same principles ) to annex a few other , touching the more solemne fellowship of christians , the church of god , as being a divine institution , the spirituall paradise and temple of the living god ; in which his most solemne services are to bee performed : and to which he addeth daily such as shall be saved ; promising to dwell in the middest of them by his most powerfull and gracious presence . question . vvhat is a church ? ans. a company of faithfull and holy people ( with their seed ) called by the word of god into publick covenant with christ , and amongst themselves for mutuall fellowship in the use of all the meanes of gods glory and their salvation . qu of what sort or number of people must this company consist ? a. it is all one whether they be high or low , few or many , so as they exceed not such a number , as may ordinarily meet together in z one place for the worshipping of god , and sanctification of the lords day . qu. what are the reasons why the church must consist of faithfull and holy persons ? a. 1. first the * scriptures every where so teach . 2. the * church is the body of christ , all whose members therefore should be conformable in some measure to him their head . 3 onely such * worshippers please god as are accepted of him and have right to the covenant of grace and seales thereof . qu but are not hypocrites mingled with the faithfull in the church ? a. none ought to bee by the word of god : and where such are they are not truly added by the lord to the church , but doe a creepe in through their owne hypocrisie , and not without the churches sin also , if they may bee discerned to be such . qu. by what meanes is the church gathered ? a. b by the word preached and by faith received of them that heare it . qu. is every beleever a member of the visible church ? a c no d , but he must also by his personall and publick profession adjoyne himselfe to some particular fellowship and societie of saints . qu. how prove you the seed of the faithfull to be of the church with them ? a. by the e covenant which god made with abraham and his seed : which was the covenant of the gospell and confirmed in christ ; the † seale thereof circumcision , being the seale of the righteousnesse of faith . qu. what are the essentiall markes of the church ? a. f faith and order , as the church in them may be scene and beheld to walke in christ iesus whom shee hath received : faith professed in word and deed , shewing the matter to bee true : and order in the holy things of god , shewing the forme to bee true , which are the two essentiall parts of the church . g qu. are not the preaching of the word and administring of the sacraments certain marks of the true church ? a. no : for the word may ( and that rightly ) be preached to assemblies of unbeleevers for their conversion h : as may the sacraments also ( though unjustly ) bee administred unto them i , and so be made sying signes . besides , the true church may for a time want the use of divers ordinances of god , but hath alwayes right unto them ; as may also the false church usurpe and abuse them but without right . qu. what are the meanes in and by which christ and the church have fellowship together ? a. k 1. in the gifts of the spirit of christ . 2. in the offices of ministery given to the church . 3. in the workes done in and by those gifts and offices . qu. wherein standeth this communion of the spirit ? a. l in the in-dwelling and operation of the gifts and graces thereof conveyed from christ as the head , unto the church as his body , and members one of another : whence ariseth that most streit and divine conjunction , by which , as by the civill bond of marriage , the man and wife are one flesh : so they who are thus joyned to christ are one spirit m . qu. how many are the offices of ministery in the church ? a. five : ( besides the extraordinary offices of apostles , prophets and evangelists , for the first planting of the churches , which are ceased , with their extraordinary gifts . ) qu. how is that proved ? a. partly by the n scriptures , which both mention them expresly , and describe them by their principall gifts , and workes : and partly by reason agreeable to the scriptures . qu. shew me which those officers bee , with their answerable gifts and workes . a. 1. * the pastor , to whom is given the gift of wisedome for exhortation . 2. the teacher , to whom is given the gift of knowledge for doctrine . 3. the governing elder , who is to rule with diligence . 4. the deacon , who is to administer the holy treasure with simplicitie . 5. the widow , or deaconesse , who is to attend the sick and impotent , with compassion and cheerefulnesse . qu. what is the reason for the proving of these ministeries ? a. because all these are usefull and necessary , and these alone sufficient for the church ; as being the most perfect societie and p body of christ , which neither faileth in that which is necessary , nor exceedeth in any thing superfluous . qu. whence ariseth the usefulnesse and sufficiency of these ministeries in the church ? a. from the condition partly of the soules , and partly of the bodies of the members . qu. how doth that appeare ? a. 1. in the soule is the facultie of understanding , about which the teacher is to be exercised for information by doctrine . 2. the will and affections : upon which the q pastor is especially to work by exhortation and comfort . 3. because that doctrine and exhortation without obedience , are unprofitable , the diligence of the ruling elder is requisite for that purpose . qu. how are the other two ministeries to be exercised ? a. as the church consisteth of men , and they of soules and bodies , so are the deacons out of the churches treasure , and contribution to provide for the common uses of the church , reliefe of the poore , and maintenance of the officers ; as are the widowes to afford unto the sick and impotent in body ( not able otherwise to help themselves ) their cheerefull and comfortable service . qu. wherefore call you those offices by the name of ministeries , or services ? a. for two causes : 1. for that they are no lordships , but services of christ , and of the church . 2. because they consist in administring only of those things which are christs , and the churches under him . q. by whom are these officers to have their outward calling ? a. by the church whereof they are members for the present , and to which they are to administer . q. how doth that appeare ? a. 1. the apostles who taught onely christs commandements , so directed the churches p . 2. the people amongst whom they have been conversant can best judge of their fitnesse , both in respect of their persons and families . 3 it furthereth much the diligence and saithfulnesse of the minister , that they whose minister hee is have freely chosen him , as unto whom under christ they commit the most pretious treasure of their soule : as also it binds the people to greater love and conscience of obedience of him and his ministry , whom themselves have made choyce of . 4. the church being a most free corporation spirituall under christ the lord , is in all reason and equity to chuse her ministers and † servants under him unto whom also shee is to give wages for their service and labour . qu. is this outward calling of simple necessity for a true church officer ? a. yea , as for the magistrate in the city and common-wealth ; or steward in the family : without which they usurp their places , how excellent soever , whether in their gifts or workes . q. what if the officer bee found unfaithfull in his place ? a. he is by the church to bee warned to take heed to his ministery hee hath received , to fulfill it ; which if he neglect to doe , by the same power which set him up , he is to be put downe and deposed . * q. vvhat are the outward workes of the churches communion with christ a. these six : 1. prayer . 2. the reading and opening of the vvord . 3. the sacraments . 4. singing of psalmes . 5. censures . 6. contribution to the necessity of the saints . qu. wherefore put you prayer in the first place ? a. because by it all the rest are sanctified to the faithfull . for prayer see the end of the fifth principle with the exposition : onely adde this , that in the act of our speaking unto god by prayer , wee are not to use the helpe of any booke , beades , crucifixes or the like , to teach or provoke us , but onely the helpe of the spirit of adoption , and prayer , working in our hearts effectually , and teaching us both what and how to pray as we ought . qu. what believe you touching the word ? a. besides the things observed in the fifth principle and exposition ; that the whole written word , and it alone is to be read and opened in the church . qu. wherefore are the whole scriptures to be read and opened ? a. * because the whole word of god is pure , written for our learning and comfort , given by divine inspiration , and is profitable for doctrine , reproofe , correction and instruction , and from which nothing may be * diminished , qu. how prove you that the scriptures only are to be read , and opened in the church ? a. s because they alone are sufficient for faith , and the obedience which is of faith , and able to make the man of god perfit , throughly furnished unto all good workes , and unto which nothing may t be added . qu. who are to open and apply the scriptures in the church ? a. principally the bishops or u elders , who by the word of life are to feed the flock , both in teaching and government . secondly , such as are out of office , in the exercise of prophesie . qu. how is that exercise proved in the scriptures ? a. by f examples in the iewish church , where men though in no office , either in temple or synagogue , had liberty publiquely to use their gifts . 2 g by the commandement of christ and his apostles . 3 by the prohibiting of h women ( not extraordinarily inspired ) to teach in the church : herein liberty being given unto men their husbands , or others . 4 by the excellent ends , which by this meanes are to be obtained : as 1 i the glory of god in the manifestation of his manifold graces . 2. that the gifts of the spirit in men be not quenched . 3. for the fitting and triall of men for the ministery . 4. for the preserving pure of the doctrine of the church , which is more endangered , if some one or two alone may onely be heard , and speake . 5. for debating and satisfying of doubts , if any doe arise . 6. for the edifying of the church , and conversion of others . qu. vvho is a prophet in this sence ? a. he that hath the gift of the spirit to speake unto edification , exhortation and comfort . qu. vvhat is the order of this exercise ? a. that it be performed af●er the publique ministery by the teachers , and under their direction and moderation : whose duty it is , if any thing be obscure to open it : if doubtfull to cleare it : if unsound to refuse it : if unperfit to supply what is wanting , as they are able . qu. what believe you touching the sacraments further then is observed in the former principles ? a. that they are to be dispensed according to the tenure of the covenant of grace , whereof they are seales : in respect both of the persons to whom , and of the ends for which they are to be administred . qu. vvhich are those persons ? a. the faithfull and their seed . qu. may all the faithfull partake in the sacraments ? a. * no , except they be also added to some particular congregation , unto which the publique ordinances and ministery doth appertaine . qu vvhich are the ends and uses of the sacraments ? a. the first is from god to the church , opened in the exposition of the fifth principle , where it is shewed what a sacrament is . the second is from the church to god , in which it testifieth the acceptance of the covenant , and bindeth it selfe to the performance of the conditions . the third is in respect of the members themselves mutually , as being badges of their association . the fourth in respect of all other assemblies , betweene whom and the churches , they are notes of distinction . qu. vvhat is required touching singing of psalmes in the church ? a. that they be such as are parts of the word of god , formed by the holy ghost into psalmes or songs , which many may conveniently sing together , exhorting and admonishing themselves mutually with grace in their hearts . qu. vvhat believe you touching the censure of excommunication ? a. that it is to be used by every particular church , according to the rules of christ . qu. how prove you this power to be in every particular congregation ? a. 1. by the donation and gift of christ the lord . 2. the particular church of corinth had this power , for the neglect whereof it is reproved by the apostle . 3. every particular church hath right to the vvord , sacraments and prayer , within it selfe , which are greater , and therfore to this which is lesser then they . qu. vvhat are the rules of christ for excommunication ? a. 1. the sin thus to be censured must be scandalous , and the person obstinate after due conviction and patience used . 2. the church excommunicating must bee that particular congregation gathered together in the name of christ , whereof the sinner is a member . qu. how prove you that by the church math. 18. is not meant the bishop , or presbytery representing the body ? a. 1. one man cannot be a church , which as christ teacheth , vers. 19. 20. must be a company , how small soever , gathered together in his name . 2. the word there used never signifieth in the scriptures , an officer or officers , excluding the people . 3. the apostle 1. cor. 5. expounds christs meaning to be of the whole body come together . 4. the elders being publique officers , are to exercise the solemne workes of their office , and particularly the worke of rebuking them that sinne , openly and before the church , both that others may feare , and the church of faith consent to the excommunication : and therefore cannot represent the church being actually present . 5. a representative church in a case of faith and conscience without the consent of the represented in the particular decree establisheth the popish doctrine of implicit faith . qu. what is the order of proceeding in this censure ? a. that the brother offending privately be admon●shed privately , and after ( without his repentance ) with a witnesse or two who may give testimony both of the offence and admonition and lastly , that by the brother admonishing with his witnesses , the sinner ( remaining obstinate , ) complaint be made to the church : which last complaint alone is sufficient in publike offences . qu. vvhat order is to be observed after complaint thus made ? a. the elders as the govenours of the church , are by the scriptures clearely to convince , and seriously to admonish and exhort the offender : and upon his impenitency ( with due conviction and patience : ) to decree against him the sentence of excommunication : and lastly , with the peoples free consent to pronounce and execute the same . qu. how appeareth the necessity of this ordinance ? a. many wayes . 1. by the commandement of christ , and practise of the apostolicall churches . 2. for the glory of christ , which is much impeached by the prophanesse of those who profesle his service . 3. for the humbling of the sinner , and for the salvation of his soule . e 4. to prevent the infection of others . f 5. that by the zeale and holinesse of the church , they without may be gayned to the gospell . qu. how is the church to walke towards a person excommunicated ? a. so as they may make him ashamed by withdrawing from him in all spirituall communion , and ciuill familiarity also , so farre as may be , without the violation of any naturall or civill bond . q what is to be observed for the churches contribution ? a. that in their publique meeting every first day of the week , they contribute , as god hath prospered them , to the publique treasury , by the deacons to be received and distributed , as there is need , to the reliefe of the poore , maintenance of the ministery , and other necessary uses of the church first , and after of others also , as need requireth . and whosoever will walke according to this rule , peace be upon them , and mercy , and upon the israel of god , galath. 6. 16. 1. cant. 6 , 7 , 8. looke not upon me because i am black , because the sun hath looked upon me : my mothers children were angry with me , they made me the keeper of the vineyards , but mine owne vineyard have i not kept . tell me ( o thou whom my soule loveth ) where thou feedest , where thou makest thy flock to rest at noone : for why should i be as one that turneth aside by the flocks of thy companions ? if thou know not ( o thou fairest amongst women ) go thy way forth by the footsteps of the flocke , and feed thy kids beside the shepheards tents . isa. 60. 12 , 13. the nation and kingdome that will not serve thee , shall perish . i will beautify the place of my sanctuary , and will make the place of my feet glorious . psal. 27. 4. one thing i asked , &c. i. robinson . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a91890e-170 rev. 2. 7. 2 cor. 6. 16. rom. 9. 4. act. 2. 47. mat. 18. 17. 18. 20. 2 cor. 6. 16. z m. 3. 28. matth. 28. 17. 19. * 1 cor. 11. 17. 18. 20. &c. 14. 23. act. 20. 7. * levit. 20. 26. rom. 17. 8. 1 cor. 1. 2. phil. 1. 1. to vers. 9. ●h eoh. 1 22. ●col . 1. 18. * iohn 4. 23 prov. 15. 5. hob , 8. 8. 10. &c. a iude. v. 2. eze. 44. 7. b mat. 28 19. 20. act 2. 14. &c. & cap. 11. 19. 20. 21. rom. 1. 5. 1 cor. 15. 1. c act. 19. 1. and 5. 13 14. d act. 2. 21. 47. & cap. 8. 37. & 19. 1. 9. 16. & 9. 26 27. act. 17. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4. with 1 thes. 1. 1. e gen. 17. 7. &c. luk. 1. 72. 73. gal. 3. 8. 16 , 17. † rom 4. 11 f col. 2. 5 , 6. 1 pet. 2. 5. with 5. 1. 2. g as true matter and forme , or two essentiall parts of other things . as of a house , temple , tabernacle . exod. 2. 6. 1. to 7. h mat. 28. 19. mar. 16. 15. act. 14. 7. 14. & 17. 22. &c. i gen. 34. 24. sichemites . 2 kings 17. 25. 27. &c. hos. 1. 9. with psal. 50. 16. rom. 9. 4. 5. k 1 cor. 12. 3. 4. 5. 6. l eph. 2. 12. & chap. 4. 15. 16. col. 3. 19. m 1 cor. 6. 17. eph. 5. 23. to 30 , 31 , 32. n rom. 12 7. 8. 1 ti. 3. 1. 8 with 5. 3. 9. 17. * eph. 4. 11. or the exhorter . rom. 12. 8. or the exhorter . 1 cor. 12. 8 rom. 12. 7. 1 tim. 5. 17. act. 6. 1. 3 1 tim. 3. 8. ●0 . & cap. 5. 3. 9. 10. rom. 16. 1. p 1 cor. 12. 27. eph. 12. 12. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} vers. 19. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . rom. 12. 7. 8. q or exhorter , ibidem . act. 6. 1. 3 and 4. 35. gal. 6. 6. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . 1 tim. 5. 18. 1 tim. 5. 3. 9. mat. 20. 25 , 26 , 27. 2 cor. 4. 5. 1 cor. 4. 1. & cap. 3. 21 , 22 , 23. p act. 1. 15. 23. & cap. 6. 1. 2. 3. 5. & cap. 14. 23. greek . act. 1. 21. & 6. 3. 1 tim. 3. 2 , 3 , 4 , 5. heb. 13. 17. eph. 2. 12. 19. † 1 co. 12. 27. 2 cor. 4 , 5. 1 tim. 5. 17 18. 1 cor. 9. 7. 9. heb. 5. 4 , 5 col. 4. 17 * being dealt with as a brother , math. 18. 15. 17. 1. tim. 2. 1. & 4 , 5. iude vers. 20. zach. 12. 10. rom. 8. 15. 26. * prov. 30. 5. rom. 15. 4. 2 tim. 3. 16 * deut. 4. 2. rev. 21. 19. 2 rom. 16 , 17. heb. 11. 6. ioh. 20. 31. 2. tim. 3. 16 , 17. t prov. 30. 6. deut. 4. 3. rev. 21. 19. u act. 20 17 , 28. tit 1. 5 , 7. f luke 2 : 42. 46 , 47 , & cap. 4. 16 , 17 , 18. act. 8 , 4 , & cap. 11. 19 , 20 , 21 , & cap. 13 , 14 , 15 , 16. & cap. 18. 24 , 25 , 26. g luke 9. 1. & cap. 10. 1. g rom. 2. 6. 1 , pet. 4. 10 , 11. 1. cor. 14. 1. h 1. tim. 2. 11 , 12 , 1 , cor , 14. 34 , 35. 11. pet. 4. 10 , 11. i thes. 5. 19. 1 tim. 3. 2. 1 cor. 14. 35. act. 2 , 42. luke 4. 22 , 23. 1. cor. 14. 4. 24 , 25. 1 cor. 14. 3. 37. act. 13. 15. gen. 17. 7. 1 cor. 7 , 14. * act , 2 , 41 , 42. 47. act. 5. 13. 14 , rom , 9. 4 , deut. 12 , 5 , 13. gen. 17 , 9 , 10. 1 cor , 12 , 13. iudg. 14. 4. iudg. 14. 4. math , 26 , 30. eph. 5 , 19. col. 3. 16. math. 18. 17 , 18 , 19. 1 cor. 5. rev. 2 , & 3. math. 18. 15. 1 cor. 5. 11. math. 18. 15 , 16 , 17. 19. 1 cor , 5. 4. 5. 11. 1 tim. 5. 20. mat. 18. 15. mar. 18. 15 1 cor. 5. 4. rom. 2. 24. e 1 cor. 5. 5. vers. 7. 8. f heb. 12. 15. 2 thes. 3. 6. 11. 1 cor. 5. 11 1 cor. 16. 1. act. 5. 1. gal. 6. 10. rom. 15. 26. twelve considerable serious questions touching chvrch government sadly propounded (out of a reall desire of vnitie and tranquillity in church and state) to all sober-minded christians, cordially affecting a speedy setled reformation, and brotherly christian vnion in all our churches and denominations, now miserably wasted with civill unnatuall warres, and deplorably lacerated with ecclesiasticall dissentions / by william prynne ... prynne, william, 1600-1669. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a56221 of text r32182 in the english short title catalog (wing p4117). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 33 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a56221 wing p4117 estc r32182 12354053 ocm 12354053 60077 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a56221) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 60077) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1025:14) twelve considerable serious questions touching chvrch government sadly propounded (out of a reall desire of vnitie and tranquillity in church and state) to all sober-minded christians, cordially affecting a speedy setled reformation, and brotherly christian vnion in all our churches and denominations, now miserably wasted with civill unnatuall warres, and deplorably lacerated with ecclesiasticall dissentions / by william prynne ... prynne, william, 1600-1669. 8 p. printed by i.d. for michael sparke, senior ..., london : 1644. reproduction of original in the union theological seminary library. eng church polity. church and state -england. great britain -history -civil war, 1642-1649. a56221 r32182 (wing p4117). civilwar no twelve considerable serious questions touching church government. sadly propounded (out of a reall desire of vnitie, and tranquillity in chu prynne, william 1644 5827 66 0 0 0 0 0 113 f the rate of 113 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the f category of texts with 100 or more defects per 10,000 words. 2002-04 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2002-05 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2002-06 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2002-06 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2002-07 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion twelve considerable serious questions touching chvrch government . sadly propounded ( out of a reall desire of vnitie , and tranquillity in church and state ) to all sober-minded christians , cordially affecting a speedy setled reformation , and brotherly christian vnion in all our churches and dominions , now miserably wasted with civill unnaturall warres , and deplorably lacerated with ecclesiasticall dissentions . by william prynne , of lincolnes inne , esquire . 1 cor. 1.10 . now i beseeech you brethren by the name of our lord jesus christ , that yee all speake the same thing , and that there be no divisions among you : but that ye be perfectly joyned together in the same minde , and in the same judgement . 1 cor. 3.3 , 4. for yee are yet carnall : for whereas there is among you envying , and strife , and divisions , are ye not carnall , and walke as men ? for while one saith , i am of paul , and another , i am of apollo , are ye not carnall ? 1 cor. 14 , 33. god is not the author of unquietnesse , but of peace , as in all churches of the saints . london , printed by i. d. for michael sparke senior , and are to be sold at the blew bible in green arbour , 1644. having neither leisure nor oportunity to debate the late unhappy differences sprung up amongst us touching church governement ( disputed at large by master herle , doctor steward master rotherford , master edwards , master durey , master goodwin , master nye , master sympson , and others , ) which much retard the speedy accomplishment , and establishment of that happy reformation , wee all earnestly pray for , and at least pretend cordially to desire , i have ( at the importunity of some reverend friends , ) digested my subitane apprehensions of these distracting controversies , into the ensuing considerable questions , which sadly pondered , & solidly debated by sober-minded peaceably disposed men of greater ability and vacancy for such a worke , then i enjoy , may put a happy period to all our dissentions about this subject , and heartily unite our devided judgements , affections , the better to secure our selves against the common enemies , who prevaile most by our divisions . 1. whether the gospell being by christs owne injunction , to be (a) preached to all nations and people whatsoever , ( who have their severall established different formes of civill government , lawes , manners , rules , and customes , sutable to their respective dispositions , climes , republikes , ) it can be infallibly evidenced by any gospell text , that christ hath peremptorily prescribed one and the selfe same forme of ecclesiasticall government , discipline , rites to all nations , churches in all particulars from which they may in no case vary , under paine of mortall sin , scisme , or being no true churches of christ , with whom good christians may not safely communicate ? or ( rather ) whether every severall nation , republike and nationall church hath not under the gospell (b) a libertie , and latitude left them to chuse and settle such an orderly form of church-government , discipline , and ecclesiasticall rites , as is most suitable to their particular civill government , lawes manners , customes : alwaies provided it be consonant and no waies repugnant to the word of god , nor prejudiciall to his sincere worship , or the peoples salvation , nor such as hinders their christian communion , amity , charity among themselvs & with other true christian churches ? this being ( as i conceive ) a generally received truth among all (c) protestant churches ; the very substance of the 34. article of the church of england ; of the 77. article of the church of ireland , and of the statutes of 2. & 3. e. 6. c. 1.3 . & 4. e. 6. c. 10.5 . & 6. e. 6. c. 1.1 . eliz. c. 2.8 . eliz. c. 1. and whether some things in all church governments , disciplines , ceremonies whatsoever , are not and must not be left to humane prudence , for which there is no direct precept nor patterne in sacred writ ? which truth is assented to by al parties , churches whatsoever , in theory or practise . 2. whether , if any kingdome or nation shall by a nationall councell , synod and parliament , upon serious debate , elect such a publike church-government , rites , discipline as they conceive to be most consonant to gods word , to the lawes , government under which they live , and manners of their people , and then settle them by a generall law ; all particular churches members of that kingdome and nation , be not thereby actually oblieged in point of (d) conscience & christianity , readily to submit thereto , and no wayes to seeke an exemption from it , under paine of being guiltie of arrogancie scisme , contumacie , and lyable to such penalties as are due to these offences ? 3. whether that forme of ecclesiasticall governement , which hath sufficient ( if not best ) warrant for it in the new testament : the examples of the primitive church , of the best reformed churches in this latter age to backe it ; the resolutions of the most eminent persons for learning and pietie in all protestant churches , approving it , tends most to effect , establish christian (e) vnitie , peace and amity , in the churches , nations , kingdomes embracing it , and with forraign churches professing the same religion ; suites best with the publike civil government , lawes , manners of those realmes who receive it , and serves most effectually to prevent , suppresse all heresies , errors , scismes , factions , diversities of opinions , corruptions of manners libertinisme , injustice , with other inconveniencies which may infest a church or state ; is not to be chosen , rec●ived as a true undoubted church-governement , agreeable to the gospell of christ , and to be preferred before that ecclesiasticall government , which hath no such expresse ●arrant for it in scripture , no patterne for it in the primitive , or best reformed ●●urches , no generall approbation of the most eminent persons for learning ●nd piety in all protestant churches , asserting it ; tendes not to effect maintaine or establish christian vnitie , peace , amitie in the churches , nations , kingdomes embracing it : suits not with their established civill lawes , go●ernment , and is no effectuall meanes to prevent or suppresse , but rather to intro●●ce and foment all heresies , errors , scismes , factions , diversities of opinions , corruptions of manners , libertinisme , injustice ( for want of appeales ) and other inconveniencies , which may infest a church or state ? 4. whether the presbiteriall forme of church-government , if rightly ordered , be not such as is expressed in the former : the independent such as is mentioned in the latter part of the preceding question ? and therfore the first of them rather to be embraced then the last , without any long debate ? 5. whether the grounds and reasons principally in●isted on for an independ●nt church government , be not such as if duly examined , will by unevitable necessary consequence subvert , dissolve , at least imbroyle , endanger all nationall , provincial churches , councels , synods , all setled monarchicall , aristocraticall , or oligarchicall formes of civill governement in nations , republikes , states , cities ; reduce all ecclesiasticall , all civill publike kindes of government , to that which is meerely parochiall or domesticall , and make every small congregation , family , ( yea person if possible ) an independent church and republike , exempt from all other publike laws , or rules of civill and ecclesiasticall government , but what they shall freely elect ; prescribe unto themselves , during pleasure and alter as they see occasion , upon more light of truth revealed ? 6. whether in all nations ages , from the first preaching of the gospell till this present as christians and beleevers multiplied , particular churches , did not likewise multiply , which had a dependency on , and communion one with another , and were all subordinate to nationall or provinciall synods , and publike ecclesiasticall constitutions ? and whether any one example of such a particular independent congregationall church or governement , as some now strennuously contend for , ( or any one eminent writer who maintained the same ) can be produced in any christian nation , kingdome or republike , totally converted to christianity , since christs time , till within our memories ? if yea ; then let the independents nominate the place , age , author , if they can . if not : then doubtlesse that can be no church government of christs or his apostles institution , which had never yet any being , nor approbation in the world , till this present age , for ought that can be proved . 7. whether the selfe-same law of nature , god , and rule of rectified reason , which instructed , warranted all persons , nations , as they multiplyed , from private families to unite themselves into severall villages , * cities , kingdoms , republikes , and to subject themselves to some one or other publike forme of civill government , and such generall laws , ( obliging all persons , societies of men alike ) which they conceived most usefull , necessary for their common safety , and prosperity ; did not heretofore , and now likewise teach perswade & instruct all men to use the selfe-same form of proceeding in matters of church government , as the number of christians , churches multiplyed , or shall yet encrease among them ? since all nations whatsoever upon their conversion to christianitie have proceeded in this method , as all ecclesiasticall histories and the acts of councels testifie ? for example , first one person ( or more ) in a nation was converted to the faith of christ ; who converted his family , and so perchance for a time had a private * church in his owne house ; this family after converted other persons , families by degrees , who united themselves into a congregationall or parish church ; after which the christians multiplying , and their princes , magistrates , nations embracing the christian religion , they divided themselves into many parochiall churches , diocesse , provinces ; none of which parochiall churches , when multiplyed and the whole nation converted , either were or claimed to be independent but were ever subordinate to (h) nationall or provinciall synods , classes , to the (i) common councell of presbyters , and governed by generall laws or constitutions , to which they still submitted : just like our new chappells and churches lately built about london and other places which are not independent , but subordinate to the ecclesiasticall lawes and publike setled government of our nationall church . a course observed in all religions , nations in the world since adams time till now , for ought appeares to me . and why this order , dictated by god , nature , and constantly pursued in all nations converted to christian religion , should not be perpetually observed , but independent congregations gathered ; not of infidels , but of men already converted to and setled in the christian faith , of which forme of congregating churches , no one example , ( unlesse derived from the private conventicles of arrians , donatists , and other heretickes , who yet were not independent amongst themselves ) nor any direct scripture , reason , or authority can be produced , to satisfie conscience , for ought ever i could yet discerne , nor yet for particular church covenants , ( to which all members must subscribe before admission into independent churches ) i can yet see no ground . 8. whether the concession of one catholike church throughout the world , denied by none : the (k) nationall assembly , and church of the israelites under the law , ( who had yet their distinct synagogues and parochiall assemblies ) instituted , approved by god himselfe ; the synodall assemblie of the apostles , elders , and brethren at ierusalem , acts 15. who (l) made and sent binding de●rees to the churches of the gentiles in antioch , syria , cylicia , and other churches ; compared with the severall generall (m) injunctions of paul in his epistles to timothy , titus , the corinthians , and other churches hee wrote to , touching church discipline , order , government ; seconded with all oecumenicall , nationall , provinciall , councells , synods , and the church government exercised throughout the world , in all christian realmes , states , from their first generall reception of the gospell till this present ; compared with acts 7.38 . c. 2.47 . c. 5.11 . c. 8.1.3 . c. 12.5 . c. 15.22 . c. 20.28 . math. 16.18 . ephes. 3.10.21 . c. 5.25.27.29.32 . col. 1 18.24 . 1 tim. 3.5.15 . be not an infallible proofe and justification of nationall churches ; of a common presbyterian , classicall government , to which particular congregations , persons ought to be subordinate , & an apparent subversion of the novell independent invention ? whether all answers ●iven to these examples & texts , by independents be not , when duly scanned , meere palpable shifts or evasions which can neither satisfie the consciences or judgements of any intelligent christians ? and whether their argument from these phrases n the churches , the churches of christ , of asia , macedonia ; all churches , &c. in the plurall number ( meant only of the churches then planted in severall cities , provinces , regions , nations , under distinct civill governments , comprised in scripture under this aggregate title the church , oft times , and then equivalent to nationall churches derived out of them as the gospell , and beleevers of it multiplied ) be any more or better proofe of particular independent churches in one & the selfe same city , nation , kingdome , republique ; then historians , councells , and canons mentioning of the churches of england , scotland , ireland , wales , france , spaine , or the churches within the province of canterburie , yorke , or diocesse of london , &c. argue , all or any of their parish churches to be independent , not one parochiall church in all these realmes being yet independent , but alwayes subordinate to the whole nationall or provinciall churches , councels , parliaments , synods of these kingdomes , as all authors and experience witnes . 9. whether the independents challenge of the presbyterians to shew them any nationall church , profes●ing christ in our saviours or the apostles dayes , before any one nation totally converted to the christian faith , or any generall open profession made of it by the princes , majestrates and major part of any nation , kingdome , republique , who were then all generally pagans and persecutors of the gospell , not then universally embraced , be not a most irrationall unjust demand ? and whether this argument from thence . there was no nationall church professing christian religion in the apostles dayes ( before any nation totally converted to christianity . ) ergo , there ought to be no such nationall church now ; though the o prophets long before assured us ; and (p) christ with his apostles certainly knew & predicted there should be nationall convertions , churches after their dayes . be not as absurd an argument as these ensuing . there was no nation wholy converted to th●●aith , nor any church-meetings of christians in publique churches , but only in q privat families , caves , corners in the apostles dayes . ergo , no nations ought to be totally converted to the faith , nor any christians to meete in publique churches , but onely in private families , caves , corners now ; as they did then . there was no nation , kingdom , city , republique , catholique , congregationall , or parochiall church in adams yonger dayes , before people were multiplyed , but only a family government , and church . ergo , there ought to be none but an oeconomicall or family government , and church , but no nation , kingdome , city , republike , catholike , or parish church now . no man will be so void of sence or reason to argue thus . every man in his infancy is borne destitute of religion , of the use of speech , reason , understanding , faith , legs , &c. ergo , he ought to continue so when he is growne a man . yet this is the maine argument of some independents . the christian church in the apostles times , whiles she was in her very infancy , and under persecution , was not nationall , but so and so , ( yet never independent . ) ergo , she must not now be nationall , but still necessarily continue in , and be reduced to her primitive infant condition , and to an independent government . when as the very history of the acts , and pauls epistles clearly informe us , that as the number of christians multiplyed , so their (r) churches , church officers multiplyed , their church government , discipline varied . at first the christian church had none but apostles to preach and instruct the people ; but when beleevers multiplyed , then they and the apostles ordained (s) deacons : after that (t) elders , evangelicall bishops , widdowes , with other church officers . and then fell , not only to write new gospells , epistles , canonicall scriptures , and rules of faith , ( as appeares by the whole new testament ) for the churches further instruction , edification , direction , by the speciall guidance of (v) gods spirit : but also to prescribe new necessary (x) rules , canons , directions , with sundry matters of order , discipline , as new occasions were offered , which liberty of ordaining , supplying , instituting new rites , orders , canons , things necessary or expedient for the churches peace and welfare , they transmitted to posterity ; and all churches of christ in all ages , places , yea the independents themselves , have claimed and exercised this very liberty , as their right ; there being many things in their independent government , which have no expresse warrant nor example in sacred wit to justifie them . 10. whether independents can produce any one solid reason , why they ought not ( in point of conscience ) willingly to submit to a presbyteriall government in case it shall be established among us by the generall consent of the synod , and parliament , as most consonant to gods word , the lawes and governement , of our realme ? and if not , whether it will not be justly reputed an high degree of obstinacy , singularity , arrogancy , selfe-ends , and peremptory schisme in them to oppose this forme of governement , or demand a speciall exemption from it , for themselves alone ? when as papists , anabaptists and all other sects may claime the like exemption , upon the like grounds as they alleadge ? 11. whether that independent governement which some contend for , if positively and fully agreed on , and laid downe without disguises , and then duly pondered in the ballance of scripture or right reason , be not of its owne nature , a very seminary of schismes , and dangerous divisions in church , state ? a floud-gate to let in an inundation of all manner of heresies , errors , sects , religions , distructive opinions , libertinisme and lawlesnesse among us , without any sufficient meanes of preventing or suppressing them when introduced ? whether the finall result of it ( as master williams in his late dangerous * licentious booke determines ) will not really resolve it selfe into this detestable conclusion . that every man , whither he be iew , turk , pagan , papist , arminian , anabaptist , &c. ought to be left to his own free liberty of cōscienc , without any coertion or restraint , to embrace & publikely to professe what religion , opinion , church , government he pleaseth , & conceiveth to be truest , though never so erronious , false seditous , detestable in it selfe ? and whither such a government as this ought to be embraced much lesse established among us ( the sad effects whereof we have already experimentally felt , by the late dangerous increase of many anabaptisticall , antinomian , hereticall , atheisticall opinions , as of the souls mortality divorce at pleasure , &c. lately broached , preached , printed in this famous city , which i hope our grand councell will speedily and carefully suppresse , and by our devisions betweene some of our commanders refusing to be dependent or subordinat one to another , ) i referre to the judgement of all such who have any sparkes of love to god , religion , their bleeding dying distracted native country flaming in their brests , or any remainder of right reason residing in their braines . 12. whether the very title of independency be not altogether improper for any man or christian , as such , who is naturally as a man , spiritually as a christian , (y) ●sociable z dependent creature needing both the cōmunion , and assistance of other persons , nations , churches ? whether the national league & covenant we have taken doth not in sundry respects strongly ingage us against independency ? and whether the root from which it originally springs ( if really searched to the very bottom & stript of all disguised pretences ) be not a pharesaical (a) dangerous spiritual prid , vainglorious singularitie , or selfe-conceitednes of mens owne superlative holines ( as they deeme it ) which makes them , contrary to the apostles rule (b) to est●●●● others better then themselves : to deeme themselvs so transendently holy , sanctified , and religious above others , that they esteeme them altogether unworthy of yea wholy exclude them from their communion & church-society , as (c) publicans , hethens , or prophane persons ( though perchance as good , or better christians then themselves ) unlesse they will submitt to their church-covenants , & goverment , refusing all true brotherly familiarity , society with them , & passing oft times most uncharitable censures on their very hearts and spirituall estates ( of which god never made them judges & (d) forbids them for to judge , because he (e) only knowes mens hearts : which hath lately ingendred an extraordinary strangnes unsociablenesse and coldnesse of brotherly affection , if not great disunion , disaffection , and many dissentions among professors themselves , yea , carelesnesse and neglect of one anothers wel●●●●●● our mutuall christian dependency on and relations one to another as christian brethren . as members of the selfe-same state and visible church of christ , f being the strongest bond of unitie , of brotherly love , care , reliefe , and mutuall assistance in all times of neede : it being the common 〈◊〉 & naturall disposition of all men , to g disrespect , neglect the reliefe , assistance ●●re and protection of those who are independent on them , or have no relations to them , no communion with them , and whom they esteem as strangers , with whom they neither have nor thinke fit to have any brotherly church-society ; whence those of different churches , or contrary religions ( as christians , turks , papists , protestants , &c. ) are alwayes for the most part at variance , enmity , seldome or never friendly , brotherly , charitable or assistant one to another . since then this new-invention of independency , is apt to produce snch uncharitablenes , unsociablenesse , strangenesse , differences , coldnesse of brotherly love , care , reliefe , and mutuall assistance , even among christians who professe themselves true saints of god ; and tends apparently to the violation of these principall precepts of the gospell , and cheifest badges of christianity , by which we know we are of the truth , that we are christs disciples indeed ; translated from life to death , and may assure our hearts hereof ; namely ; to love one another : to love all the saints and brethren unfeinedly , not in word & in tongue , but indeed & in truth , with a pure heart fervently : i to walk in love as christ loved us : to put on as the elect of god ( holy and beloved ) bowels of mercy , kindnesse , humblenesse of minde , meeknesse , long-suffering : to be kind and tender hearted one towards another : and above all things to put on charity which is the bond of perfectnesse ; endeavouring to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace , to which we are called in one body ; there being , ( & we all having ) but one body , one spirit , one hope of our calling , one lord , one faith , one baptisme , one god and father of all , who is above all , and thorough all , and over us all ; i humbly referre it to the serious consideration of all pious and peaceable christians , whether it can be any church goverment of christs invention , approbation , or institution fit to be embraced in any christian realme : wherein we should with (k) one minde and one mouth glorifie god ; and all speake the same thing without any divisions among us , being perfectly joyned together in the same minde , and in the same judgement . this gods owne precept ; and it shall be my dayly prayer , it may now prove all our reall practise . i shall close up all with this exhortation of the apostle , necessary for our distracted times ; (l) if there be any consolation in christ , if any comfort of love , if any fellowship of the spirit , if any bowels and mercies , fulfill yee my joy , that you be like minded , having the same love , being of one accord and of one mind , let nothing be done ( henceforth as to much i feare hath formerly bin ) through strife or vain glory ; but in lowlines of mind , let each esteem of others better then himselfe : looke not every man on ( or after ) his owne things , but every man also on the things of others ; (m) and i beseech you brethren marke them which cause divisions & offences , contrary to the doctrine which yee have learned , and avoid them ; follow after the things which make for peace , and such things only wherewith one may edefie another ; laying aside all bitternesse , and wrath , and anger , and clamor , and evill speaking , with all malice , covetousnesse , pride , and self seeking : which duly practised will speedily reconcile and terminate all our differences , eternally unite us in a lasting bond of reall vnity and brotherly love against our . common enemies ; who endeavour to ruin●●s by our unnaturall sad divisions . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a56221e-270 (a) matth. 28.19 , 20. mar. 16.15 . rom. 10.18 . col. 1 5.6.23 . ephes. 3.5 . to 12. (b) 1 cor. 14.40 . c. 11.34 . (c) see the harmony of confessions section 10 , 11 16. (d) 1 cor. 14.32.33 . rom. 13.1.2 . 1 pet 2 13 , 14 , 15. 1 cor. 10.32.33 . (e) 1 cor. 12.12 . to 29. c. 14.33 . c. 1.10 . to 15. c. 11.16 . eph. 4.3 . to 17 rom. 15.56 . ia. 3.14.15 , 16● 17 , 18. phil. 2.1.2 , 3. 1 cor. 3.3.4 . * gen 4 17. c. 10. & 11 & 14. arist. pol. lib. 1. c. 1.2 . &c. * rom. 16 15 1 cor. 16.19 acts 11.19 . to 25 & 13.14 & 16. and 17. and 18 c. 28.30 , 31. (h) see binius , surius , crab , merlin , syrmond , caranza , and sir hen. spelmans tomes of councels . bochellus de●reta ecclesiae , gallicanae gratian i●o carnote● si● , the harmony of confessions , lyndewood and other canonists . (i) communi presbyter●rum concilio ecclesiae regebantur hier. epist. ad ev●grium & com. in tit. 1. igna●ius . epist. 5.6 18. tertul. apolog : advers. gentes cap. 39. ireneus adv : haereses . l. b 4. c. 43.44 . cyp. epist. 6.18.28.39.45 . sedulius & anselm : in tit. 1. ●ee my antipathy of the english lordly prelacy , &c. part . 2. c 8.9 where this is largely proved . harmony of confessions . sect. 11.12 . (k) exo. 23.17 c. 34.23 , ●4 . c. 35.1 . deu. ●6 . 15 , 17. c. ●1 1. lev. 8.3 num. 8.20 . c. 13.26 iosh. 22.12.10 34. c. 23. 2. c. 24 1. to . 20. iudg. ●6 . 1.2 . c● 2● . 5 . 1 chron. 31.1.10 . 9. c 28.1 , 2. c. 29.1 . &c. ● . chron. 5. ● . c. 6 3.12 , 13. c. 7 , 8 , 9. c. 20 4 , 5.14 c. 23.2.3 . c. 30.1 . to 27. c 31.1 . ezra . 31. c 10 1 &c neh. 8.1.10.18 . luk. 1.41 . (l) acts 15.22 to 32. c. 16 14. c. 21.25 . (m) ● cor. 7.17 c. 11.6 . c. 4. ●3 . c. 16.1.2 . gal. 1.1 . see rev. 1.11.20 . c. 2.7 . c. 22 . 1● . n acts 9.31 . c. 15 . 4● . c. 16 5 rom. 16 . 4● 16. ● cor 7.17 . c. 11 , 16● c. 1● . 33 , 34. c. 16.19 . 2 cor. 8.1 18.19.23 , 24. c. 11.13 . 2 thes●● . ● . rev. 1.11.20 . c. 2.7.11.13.19 . c. 3 6.13.22 . c. 22.16 . o isay 2 2 3. mic 4.1 . to 5. ps. 72.17 . ps , 82.8 . psal. 86.9 . ier. 16.19 mal. 1 . 1● . isa. 11.9 . to 16 c. 9.12.23 . c. 54.1.2 , 3. c. 60.3 . to 22. zach. 8.22 . (p) lu. 2.32 . mar. 13.10 . act. 1● . 46.47.48 . rō . 10.18.20 . ● 1.12 . &c. q rom. 16.5 . 1 cor. 16.19 . col. 4 15. philem. 2.23 . heb. 11.37.38 . acts 20.7.8 . acts 1.13.14 . i●h. 20 19. (r) gal. 1.1 . acts 9.31 . c. 15.41 . c. 16.5 . rom. 16 4.16 . 1 cor 7.17 . r. 11.16 . c. 14.33 . c. 16.19 . 2 co● . 1.18.19.23.24.11.28 , 2 thes. 1 rev. 1. ●1 . 20 c. 22.16 . (s) acts 6.1 . to 8. 1 tim. 3.8 . (t) act 11.30 . c. 15.2.4 . phil. 1.1 . tit. 1.5 . 1 tim. 3. c● to 6. c. 5.17 . iam. 5.14 . 1 pet. 5.1.2 . 1 cor. 1● . 28.29 . eph. 4.21.12 , 13. 1 tim 5.3.9.10 . 2 pet. 1.20.21 . (v) 2 tim. 3.16.2 . (x) 1 cor. c. 1 & 3. & 4. & 5. & 6 c. 11.34 . & 7. & 8. & 9. & 10.11 . & 12. & 14. & 16. &c. 1. 〈◊〉 2 epist. to tim. tit c. 1. & 2. 1 cor 7.17 c. 3.4.3 . * a bloudy tenent . (y) gen. 2.18 . c 9.17 . c. 10.11 . r. 4. arist. polit. l. 1. & ● . z 1 cor. 12.10 31. acts 10.5 . to 48 c. 11.21 . 22 , 26 , c. 15.1 . to 37. 1 cor. 16 1 , 32 , . 2 cor. 2.11.11 . 2 cor. 11.28 . 15. acts 19.9.10 c. 11.21.22 . (a) rom. 10.14 . isay. 65.5 . lu. 18.10 . to 19. pro. 30.12 . math. 7.1 . (b) ph●l . ● . 3 . (c) lu. 18.10.11.12 . math. 18.17 . (d) math. 7.1 . rom. 2.1 . r. 14.10 . (e) 2 chron. 6 , 30 , 17.9.10 . f acts 2.44 , 45 , 46. 1 cor 12.12 to 26. c. 16 ● , ● . 2 . cor 8. ephes. 4 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6● c. ●● 25 , to 23. 1 tim 5 , 8 , 2. cor 11 , 21. c. 12 , 14. g iudges ● 28. luk 9● 53 , 5● 〈◊〉 8 , 〈◊〉 iohn 13.34 , 35. 1 iohn 4.21 . c 3.14 , 18 , 19● 1 thes. 4.9 1 pet. 1 . 2●● c ●●17 . i ephes. 5 , 2. c 4 . ● to 7. col. 3.12 , 3 , 14 , 15. (k) rom 15.5 6. 1 cor. 1.12 (l) phil. 2.1.2 , 3 , 4. (m) rom. 6.17 . c. 14.19 . c. 12.16 . ephes 4.31 c. 5.3 . a trve copie of the disputation held betweene master walker and a iesuite in the house of one thomas bates in bishops court in the old baily concerning the ecclesiasticall function walker, henry, ironmonger. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a67245 of text r17974 in the english short title catalog (wing w391). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 9 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a67245 wing w391 estc r17974 12868157 ocm 12868157 94763 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a67245) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 94763) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 255:e172, no 9) a trve copie of the disputation held betweene master walker and a iesuite in the house of one thomas bates in bishops court in the old baily concerning the ecclesiasticall function walker, henry, ironmonger. [8] p. s.n.] [london? : 1641. attributed to henry walker by wing and bm. reproduction of original in thomason collection, british library. eng church polity -early works to 1800. great britain -religion -17th century. a67245 r17974 (wing w391). civilwar no a true copie of the disputation held betweene master walker and a iesuite, in the house of one thomas bates in bishops court in the old bail walker, henry, ironmonger 1641 1539 1 0 0 0 0 0 6 b the rate of 6 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the b category of texts with fewer than 10 defects per 10,000 words. 2003-07 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-07 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2003-08 mona logarbo sampled and proofread 2003-08 mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a trve copie of the disputation held betweene master walker and a iesuite , in the house of one thomas bates in bishops court in the old baily , concerning the ecclesiasticall function . printed in the yeare , 1641. a true copy of a disputation held between mr. walker and a iesuit . iesuit . i pray you what is the reason that the people in england would have no bishops ? mr. walker . were our bishops one and the same with presbyters , we should not seeke to have them removed . it is those lordly hierarchicall prelates , which are instituted after the popish order , those lofty tyrants that rule like the gentiles over the people of god , these be the bishops that the people of god are offended with . ies. if the bishops should not governe the church , then the people would fall into many errors , and the church would be full of schismes . wal. doe you thinke that they keepe errours out of the church ? no they ( as it is very apparent ) have beene the sole cause of the popery , errours , schismes , and innovations , wherwith our churches have beene lately pestered . ies. you are mistaken , for they have received the power of the holy ghost , by which they are led and guided that they cannot erre . wal. upon what grounds doe you conceive that they should have a greater measure of the spirit of god then other pastours and ministers ? ies. they receive the holy ghost from succession , to which succession christ hath promised to be with them to the end of the world , so that they cannot erre . wal. how can you prove such a succession to belong to them , as brings the holy ghost with it to all without exception , to lead them that they cannot erre ? ies. because they are successors to christ and his apostles , and you know that his apostles could not erre . wal. did not peter erre when hee was reproved by christ to speak foolishly ? did he not erre when christ said to him , get thee behind me satan , thou savourest not ? did hee not erre when hee denyed christ ? yea and forswore him too ? did not thomas erre when he thought it was not christ that appeared to them ? ies. they erred onely in some particulars of frailty , which was incident to them as men , but these were but veniall errors : they erred not in the discipline of the church as they were apostles . wal. did not iudas erre in discipline , when for thirty peeces of silver hee betrayed christ into the hands of the high priests to be crucified ? ies. i speake not of iudas , for his bishopricke was taken from h●m , and given to another , i speake of the rest of the apostles . wal. if part of the apostolicall function bee secluded from the rest , whence then doe you prove the government of bishops to bee thus endued by succession from the apostles ? ies. because as the apostles taught nothing dissonant from the truth of gods word , being directed thereunto by the holy ghost : so the bishops their successors doe the like . wal. that doth not follow : for the apostles and our prelates are not all one and the same office : for the apostles were the disciples of christ , but the prelates are the limbs of antichrist . ies. peter the apostle was bishop of rome , whose see hath beene held by succeeding bishops unto this day . wal. peter was no more tyed to rome then to other churches , for that was contrary to christs command , who commanded both him and the rest to preach to all nations . ies. the bishop of rome is in every respect a true successor unto peter . the power of ecclesiasticall jurisdiction , in censuring , in constitutions , decrees , &c. is derived from the apostle s. peter , to the bishop of rome , and from him to all other bishops . wal christ gave not the jurisdiction to one particular apostle alone , that the rest should have it by succession from him , but they all received it from christ : neither hath the bishop of rome any succeeding authority from them above others . ies. this succession is of such consequence , that should it cease , and there should be no bishops , there could be no lawfull admittance of any into the ecclesiasticall function , for ordination cannot be without the bishops . wal. can you deny that that meanes whereby men are kept , and maintained , and upheld in their ecclesiasticall offices , is the beginning and authour thereof : but by the spirit of god are ecclesiasticall officers prescribed in their office and ministery . ergo , the pastors and elders which were ordained even by the apostles themselves , receive not their power and jurisdiction from the apostles by succession , but from the lord : much lesse hath the pope right to doe it , or any bishop in the world from himselfe ; for onely christ hath authority to prefer to the government of the church . ies. in the institution by bishops the power of the holy ghost is received , that god directeth them that they shall be able to preserve the church from error , which is the chiefe end of the ministery . wal. is the church preserved from error by those that teach the people to be trecherous to their kings and princes , and to slay the lords anointed : the lord deliver our church from such errors . ies. the bishop of rome doth not allow of it . wal. did not pope innocentius the fourth hyre his bastard sonne manfredus to poyson the emperour fredericke ; and sixtus the 5. made an oration in praise and commendation of the fryers faith which murdered henry 3. king of france . ies. these are scandalous aspersions , such i doe not beleeve to be true . wal. what say you then to the fightings of the papists in ireland against the queen , the spanish invasion , the gunpowder treason , that of iames clement against the king of france , &c. ies. the bishop of rome never allowed of any of these , they had neither counsell nor consent from him . wal. it is wel enough knowne to the contrary ; but to come neerer to you , doe you thinke it is not an error for the pope to take upon him to curse and excommunicate kings and princes at his pleasure ? ies. such who have vowed to him allegeance he hath power to excommunicate : as for such who have not , they are of another church . wal. therefore the emperour frederick was so wise to make a law , that if a bishop were found to attempt any thing against the publick quiet , that he should live an hundred miles off from that city or place which he had disturbed . and it were to bee wished that all such disturbers of the peace and quiet of this our nation , were sent not onely an hundred , but a thousand miles off . ies. why doe you abuse those bishops that are of so noble and honourable a function ? christ the head of the church hath placed bishops in his own stead , giving them that power which himselfe received of his father , insomuch that there is no office or degree which christ received from his father , but he doth communicate the same to them . wal. christ is our mediator , will you say that the prelates are our mediators ? ies. as christ is our mediatour , paying to his father the ransome , so are they priests and mediatours by prayer . wal. i deny your tenent , it is no better then blasphemy ; for there is onely one mediatour between god and man , the man christ iesus , as paul saith , 1 tim. 2. 5. ies. they are our mediatours , i doe not say as authors themselves of any benefit to us , but obtaining through christ and his merits whatsoever by them is obtained for us . wal. if christ hath not purchased what is obtained for us without their mediation , then were christ an imperfect mediatour : but christ is a perfect mediatour , even hee that hath trod the wine-presse alone , and what is obtained is only from him , and by him alone . finis . a summarie view of the government both of the old and new testament whereby the episcopall government of christs church is vindicated out of the rude draughts of lancelot andrewes, late bishop of winchester : whereunto is prefixed (as a preamble to the whole) a discovery of the causes of the continuance of these contentions touching church-government out of the fragments of richard hooker. andrewes, lancelot, 1555-1626. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a25413 of text r12190 in the english short title catalog (wing a3153). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 65 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 24 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a25413 wing a3153 estc r12190 12715723 ocm 12715723 66189 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a25413) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 66189) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 972:10) a summarie view of the government both of the old and new testament whereby the episcopall government of christs church is vindicated out of the rude draughts of lancelot andrewes, late bishop of winchester : whereunto is prefixed (as a preamble to the whole) a discovery of the causes of the continuance of these contentions touching church-government out of the fragments of richard hooker. andrewes, lancelot, 1555-1626. hooker, richard, 1553 or 4-1600. [2], 42 p. printed by leon lichfield ..., oxford : 1641. reproduction of original in cambridge university library. eng church polity. a25413 r12190 (wing a3153). civilwar no a summarie view of the government both of the old and new testament: whereby the episcopall government of christs church is vindicated; out andrewes, lancelot 1641 10480 9 115 0 0 0 0 118 f the rate of 118 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the f category of texts with 100 or more defects per 10,000 words. 2002-04 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2002-04 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2002-05 tcp staff (oxford) sampled and proofread 2002-05 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2002-06 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a summarie view of the government both of the old and new testament : whereby the episcopall government of christs church is vindicated : out of the rude draughts of lancelot andrewes , late bishop of winchester . whereunto is prefixed ( as a preamble to the whole ) a discovery of the causes of the continuance of these contentions touching church-government : out of the fragments of richard hooker , oxford , printed by leon lichfield , anno dom , 1641. the causes of the continuance of these contentions concerning church-government . contention ariseth , either through errour in mens judgements , or else disorder in their affections . 1. when contention doth grow by errour in judgement ; it ceaseth not till men by instruction come to see wherein they erre , and what it is that did deceive them . without this , there is neither policy nor punishment that can establish peace in the church . the moscovian emperour , being weary of the infinite strifes and contentions amongst preachers , and by their occasion amongst others , forbad preaching utterly throughout all his dominions ; and in stead thereof commanded certain sermons of the greeke and latine fathers to bee translated , and them to be read in publique assemblies , without adding a word of their owne thereunto upon paine of death . hee thought by this politique devise to bring them to agreement , or at least to cover their disagreement . but so bad a policy was no fit salve for so great a soare . we may think perhaps , that punishment would have beene more effectuall to that purpose . for neither did solomon speak without book in saying , that when folly is bound up in the heart of a child , the rod of correction must drive it out ; and experience doth shew that when errour hath once disquieted the minds of men and made them restlesse , if they doe not feare they will terrify . neither hath it repented the church at any time to have used the rod in moderate severity for the speedier reclaiming of men from error , and the reuni●ing such as by schisme have sundred themselves . but we find by triall , that as being taught and not terrified , they shut their eares against the word of truth and sooth themselves in that wherewith custome or sinister persuasion hath inured them : so contrariwise , if they be terrifyed and not taught , their punishment doth not commonly worke their amendment . as moses therefore , so likewise aaron ; as zerubabel , so iehoshua ; as the prince which hath laboured by the scepter of righteousnesse and sword of justice to end strife , so the prophets which with the booke and doctrine of salvation have soundly and wisely endeavoured to instruct the ignorant in those litigious points wherewith the church is now troubled : whether by preaching , as apolloes among the iewes ; or by disputing , as paul at athens ; or by writing , as the learned in their severall times and ages heretofore ; or by conferring in synods and councells , as peter , iames , and others at ierusalem ; or by any the like allowable and laudable meanes ; their praise is worthily in the gospell , and their portion in that promise which god hath made by his prophets , they that turne many unto righteousnesse shall shine as the starres for ever and ever . i say , whosoever have soundly and wisely endeavoured by those meanes to reclaime the ignorant from their errour , and to make peace . want of sound proceeding in church controversies hath made many more stiffe in errour now then before . want of wise and discreet dealing , hath much hindred the peace of the church . it may bee thought , and is , that arius had never raised those tempestuous stormes which we read he did ; if alexander , the first that withstood the arrians heresy , had born himselfe with greater moderation , and been lesse eager in so good a cause . sulpitius severus doth note as much in the dealings of idacius against the favourers of priscillian , when that heresy was but green and new sprung up . for by overmuch vehemency against iactantius and his mates , a sparke was made a f●ame : insomuch that thereby the seditious waxed rather more fierce then lesse troublesome . in matters of so great moment , whereupon the peace or disturbance of the church is knowne to depend , if there were in us that reverend care which should be ; it is not possible wee should either speak at any time without feare , or ever write but with a trembling hand . doe they consider whereabout they goe , or what it is they have in hand ; who taking upon them the causes of god , deale only or chiefly against the persons of men ? we cannot altogether excuse our selves in this respect , whose home controversies and debates at this day , although i trust they be as the strife of paul with barnabas and not with elymas ; yet because there is a truth , which on the one side being unknown hath caused contention , i doe wish it had pleased almighty god , that in sifting it out , those offences had not grown , which i had rather bewaile with secret teares then publick speech . neverthelesse as some sort of people is reported to have bred a detestation of drunkennesse in their children by presenting the deformity thereof in servants : so it may come to passe ( i wish it might ) that we beholding more foule deformity in the face and countenance of a common adversary , shall be induced to correct some smaller blemishes in our owne . yee are not ignorant of the demaunds , motives , censures , apologies , defences , and other writings which our great enemies have published under colour of seeking peace ; promising to bring nothing but reason and evident remonstrance of truth . but who seeth not how full gorged they are with virulent , sl●nderous and immodest speeches , tending much to the disgrace , to the disproofe nothing of that cause which they endeavour to overthrow ? will you speake wickedly for gods defence ? saith iob. will you dipp your tongues in gall and your pennes in blood , when yee write and speak in his cause ? is the truth confirmed , are men convicted of their errour when they are upbrayded with the miseries of their condition and estate ? when their understanding , wit and knowledge is depressed ? when suspitions and rumours , without respect how true or how false , are objected to diminish their credit and estimation in the world ? is it likely that invectives , epigrammes , dialogues , epistles , libells , loden with contumelies and criminations , should bee the meanes to procure peace ? surely they which doe take this course , the way of peace they have not knowne . if they did but once enter into a stayed consideration with themselves what they doe ; no doubt they would give over and resolve with iob. behold i am vile , what shall i answer ? i will lay my hand upon my mouth . if i have spoken once amisse , i will speak no more ; or if twice , i will proceed no further . ii. but how sober and how sound soever our proceedings be in these causes ; all is in vaine which wee doe to abate the errours of men , except their unruly affections be bridled . selfe-love , vaine-glory , impatience , pride , pertinacy , these are the bane of our peace . and these are not conquered or cast out , but by prayer . pray for ierusalem ; and your prayer shall cause the hills to bring forth peace : peace shall distill and come downe like the raine upon the mowen grasse , and as the showers that water the earth . we have used all other meanes , and behold wee are frustrate , wee have laboured in vaine . in disputations ; whether it be because men are ashamed to acknowledge their errours before many witnesses , or because extemporality doth exclude mature and ripe advise without which the truth cannot soundly and throughly bee demonstrated , or because the fervor of contention doth so disturbe mens understanding , that they cannot sincerely and effectually judge : in books and sermons ; whether it be because we doe speak and write with too little advise , or because you doe heare and read with too much prejudice : in all humane means wch have hitherto been used to procure peace ; whether it be because our dealings have been too feeble , or the minds of men with whom we have dealt too too implacable , or whatsoever the cause or causes have been : for as much as wee see that as yet wee faile in our desires , yea the wayes which we take to be most likely to make peace , doe but move strife ; o that we would now hold our tongues , leave contending with men , and have our talke and treaty of peace with god . we have spoken and written enough of peace : there is no way left but this one ; pray for the peace of ierusalem . the forme of government in the old testament : and first , under moses . the common-wealth of israel was considered , either as personall , containing all the whole people , not a man left : or representative ; in the estate , tribes , cities ; whose daughters the townes adjacent are called . i. the estate had ever one governour , 1. moses . 2. iosua . 3. iudges . 4. kings . 5. tirshathaes , [ or , vice-royes , ezra . 2. 63. ] with whom were joyned the lxx . elders . ii. the tribes had every one their prince , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} phylarcha . ( num. 2. ) with whom were joyned the chiefe of the families , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} patriarchae . ( num. 1.4 . ) iii. the cities had each likewise their ruler . ( iud. 9.30.1 . king. 22.26 . 2. king. 23.8 . ) with whom were joyned the elders or ancients . ( ruth . 4.2 . ezr. 10.14 . ) these last , not before they came into canaan , [ and were setled in their cities . ] it appeareth , that moses sometime consulted only with {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ( the heads of the tribes ; ) and then one trumpet only sounded : ( num. 10.4 . ) in some other causes with the {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ( the congregation ; ) and then both trumpets called . ( num. 10.3 . ) the highest bench or iudgement , for causes of greatest difficultie , was that of the lxx . who at the first , were the fathers of each familie that came down to egypt . ( gen. 46. ) which number did after that remaine ; ( exod. 24.1 , 9. ) and was at last by god himselfe so appointed . ( num. 11.16 . ) see 2. chron. 19.8 . the inferiour benches , for matters of lesse importance , were erected by iethroes advice of rulers of thousands , hundreds , fifties , tithings . exod. 18. 21 , 26. and after established by gods approbation . ( deut. 16.18 . ) in every city ( as * iosephus saith ) were seven iudges ; and for each iudge , two levites : which made together the bench of each city . the forme of the ecclesiastical government under moses . the priesthood was setled in the tribe of levi by god . levi had three sons : cohath , gershon , and merari . of these , the line of cohath was preferred before the rest . from him descended four families : amram , izhar , hebron , and vzziel . of these the stock of amram was made chiefe . he had two sons : aaron and moses . aaron was by god appointed high priest . so that there came to be foure distinctions of levits : 1. aaron , as chiefe . 2. cohath . 3. gershon . 4. merari . the commonwealth of israel was at the beginning in the desert a camp . in the midst whereof the arke and tabernacle were pitched : and according to the four coasts whereof , they quartered themselves ; on every side three tribes . on the east side : iudah . issachar zabulon , on the south side : reuben . simeon . gad. on the west side : ephraim . manasses . benjamin . on the north side : dan. aser . napthali . num. 2. v. 3. 10. 18. 25. these foure quarters were committted to those foure divisions of levits : the east quarter , to aaron , and his family . the south quarter , to the cohathites . the west quarter , to the gershonits . the north quarter , to the merarits . num. 3. vers. 38. 29. 23. 35. who lodged among them , and took charge of them , as of their severall wards . but there was not a parity in these foure : for 1. aarons family , which bare the ark it selfe , was chiefe . 2. cohaths , which bare the tabernacle and vessels , next . 3. gershons , which bare the veile and hangings of the court , third . 4. meraries , which bare the pillars and posts , last . neither were all the levits of each of these severall houses equall ; but god ordeined a superiority among them : over the priests , eleazar . over the cohathits , elizaphan . over the gershonits , eliasaph . over the merarits , zuriel . num. 3. v. 30. 24. 35. whom he termeth nesiim , that is , prelats or superiors . no more did he permit these foure to be equals among themselves : but appointed ithamar ( exod. 38.21 . ) to command over eliasaph , with his gershonits . ( num. 4.28 . ) zuriel , with his merarits . ( num. 4.33 . ) eleazar ( num. 4.16 . ) to have jurisdictio over his own family . elizaphan , with his cohathites . yea he maketh not eleazar and ithamar to be absolute equals : but giveth eleazar preeminence over ithamar ; and therefore termeth him nasi nesiim , princeps principum or praelatus praelatorum . ( num. 3.32 . ) and all these under aaron the high priest . so that , 1. aaron was the high priest . 2. under him eleazar : who , as hee had his peculiar charge to look unto , so was he generally to rule both ithamars jurisdiction and his owne . 3. under him ithamar , over two families . 4. under him the three prelats . 5. under each of them , their severall chiefe fathers ( {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} as they are termed exod. 6.25 . ) under elizaphan foure , under eliasaph two , under zuriel two . ( num. 3.18 , &c. ) 6. under these , the severall persons of their kindreds . this is here worth the noting , that albeit it bee granted that aaron was the type of christ , and so we forbeare to take any argument from him : yet eleazar ( who was no type , nor ever so deemed by any writer ) will serve sufficiently to shew such superiority as is pleaded for ; that is , a personall jurisdiction in one man resiant over the heads or rulers of diverse charges . the forme of government under joshua . the common-wealth being changed from the ambulatory form into a setled estate in the cities of canaan : as before , the levits were divided according to the severall quarters of the camp ; so now were they sorted into the severall territories of the tribes . so god commanded ; num. 35.2 , 8. the lot fell so , that the foure partitions of the xii . tribes were not the same , as when they camped before together ; but after another sort . for the tribes of 1. iuda , simeon and benjamin made the first quarter . 2. ephraim , dan , and halfe of manasses the second . 3. issachar , asher , napthali , and the other halfe of manasses the third . 4. zebulun , reuben , and gad the fourth . now in these foure ; 1. the charge or oversight of the first was committed to aaron and his family : and they had therein assigned to them xiii . cities . in iudah and simeon , ix . and in benjamin , iv. ( ios. 21.9 , 10 , &c. ) 2. of the second , the care was committed to the family of the cohathits : and they had assigned to them x. cities . in ephraim , iv. in dan , iv. and in the halfe of manasses , ii. ( ios. 21.20 . ) 3. the third was committed to the family of gershon : and they had therein assigned to them xiii . cities . in issachar , iv. in asher , iv. in naphtali , iii. in the other halfe of manasses , ii. ( ios. 21.27 . ) 4. the oversight of the fourth partition was committed to the merarits : and they had therein assigned to them xii . cities . in zebulun , iv. in reuben , iv. in gad , iv. ( ios. 21.34 . ) these were in all , xlviii . cities : whereof the chiefe ( as may appeare ) were cities set on hills ; and all so situate , in such proportion and distance , as that they most equally parted their tribe among them , to performe unto them their duties of attendance and instruction . further , there were in ioshuahs time added , by the decree of the princes , the nethinims of the people of gibeon ; for the lowest ministeries , and for the service of the levits . ( ios. 9.27 . ) so that now the order was thus : 1. eleazar . 2. phineas . 3. abisua . 4. the three nesiims . 5. the rase aboth , [ or , heads of the families . ] 6. the levits . 7. the nethinims . if this power and superiority was necessary , when all the people and priests were within one trench , even within the view of aarons eye : much more in canaan , when they were scattered abroad in divers cities farre distant , was the retaining of it more then necessary . the forme of government under david . albeit in sauls government small regard was had to the church : yet david found at his comming a superiority amongst them . for besides the priests , hee found six princes or rulers over six families of the levits . ( 1. chron. 15.5 , 6 , &c. ) vriel over cohath . asajah over merari . ioel over gershon . shemajah over elizaphan . eliel over hebron . amminadab over vzziel . likewise between the two priests an inequality : one abiathar , attending the ark at ierusalem , the higher function ; the other , zadok , the tabernacle at gibeon . ( 2. sam. 20.25.1 . chron , 16.37 , 39. ) but after the ark was brought back ; he set a most exquisite order among the levits : and that by samuels direction ; 1. chron. 9.22 . so that he is there reckoned as a new founder . of them he made six orders : 1. chron. 23. 1. priests , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} 24000. vers. 4. 2. ministers of priests 3. iudges , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} 6000. vers. 4. 4. officers , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} 5. singers , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} 4000. verse . 5. 6. porters , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} 4000. 1. of priests , zadok was the chiefe of the family of eleazar ; and ahimelech the second , of the family of ithamar . ( 1. chron-24 . 3 . ) under these were xxiiii . other courses . of the posteritie of eleazar , xvi . ithamar , viii . 1. chr. 24.4 . which xxiiii . are called ( in the 5. verse ) rulers of the sanctuary and rulers of the house of god : and to whom the learned interpreters thinke the xxiiii . elders , apocal. 4.4 . have relation . ii. of levits that ministred to the priests in their function , likewise xxiiii . courses ; out of the * viii . families , the heads of whom are set downe in 1. chron. 23.6 . and 24.20 . over all which , jehdeiah was chiefe . iii. of iudges , that sate for causes aswell of god as the king , there were appointed : 1. on this side iordan , upwards toward the river ; ashhabiah the hebronite . ( 1. chr. 26.30 . ) 2. on this side iordan , downwards towards the sea ; chenaniah the isharite . ( 1. chr. 26.29 . ) 3. beyond iordan , over the two tribes and the halfe ; ierijah the chiefe of the hebronites . ( 1. chron. 26.31 . ) iiii. of officers . scribes . shemaiah . ( 1. chron. 24.6 . ) seraiaeh . ( 2. sam. 8.17 . ) shevah . ( 2. sam. 20.25 . ) scribes of the levits . ( 1. chron. 24.6 . ) temple . ( 2. king. 22.3 . ier. 36.10 ) people . ( mat. 2.4 . ) king. ( 2. king. 12.10 . ) v. of the singers likewise he set xxiv courses : over which he placed three chiefe , out of the three families . ( 1. chron. 15.17 . & 25.2 , 3 , 4. ) out of cohath ; heman samuels nephew . ( 1. chr. 6.33 ) gershon ; asaph . ( 1. chron. 6.39 . ) merari ; ethan or ieduthun . 1. chron. 6.44 . of these , heman was the chiefe . ( 1. ch. 25.5 ) vnder these were diverse others . ( 1. chr. 15.18 . vi . of porters , who were divided into the keepers of the watch of the temple : ( mat. 27.65 . psal. 134.1 . ) who were placed on each quarter of the tabernacle . ( 1. chr. 26.13 , 14 , &c. ) on the east side vi . over whom was shelemiah . south iiii. ( for the tabernacle ii. and ii. for asuppim ) over whō was obed. west iiii. over whom was hosa . north iiii. over whom was zechariah . over all these it seemeth benajah , the son of iehoiada the priest , was the chiefe . ( 1. chron , 27.5 . ) treasurers : for the revenues of the house of god ( 1. ch. 26.20 . ) for things dedicated by vow ; shelomith . 1. chron. 26.26 . ) cohath ; shebuel of moses ofspring . gershon ; iehiel . merari ; ahiah . over all the porters was chenaniah . ( 1. chr. 26.29 . & 15.22 , 27. ) it is to be remembred that , beside zadok the high priest and ahimelech ( the second ) we finde mention of hashabiah the son of kemuel chiefe of the whole tribe of levi . ( 1. chron. 27.17 . ) so that there was one over the ark ; zadok . the second over the tabernacle ; ahimelech . the third over the tribe ; hashabiah . as over the levits ministers ; iehdeiah . iudges ; chasabiah . officers ; shemaiah . singers ; heman . porters ; chenaniah , or benaiah . agreeable to this forme we read that under iosias there were three : that is , hilkiah , zachariah , and iehiel : ( 2. chron. 35.8 . ) and that the levits had six over them . ( 2. chron. 35.9 . ) againe under zedekiah ; that there were carried into captivity seraiah [ the chief priest ] and zephaniah [ the second priest . ] 2. king. 25.18 . likewise under ezekiah , at the provision for the levits portions , there were ten of the levits ; over whom was cononiah and shimei : and so kore over the voluntary offrings ; and six levits under him . ( 2. chron. 31.12 , 13. &c. ) the forme of government under nehemiah : of whom and esdras it is recorded , that they did all according to moses institution . ( ezr. 6.18 . nehem. 10.34 , 36. ) there was then eliashib . nehem. 3.1 . seraiah . 11.11 . zabdiel . 11.14 . the courses were then but xxii . ( neh. 12.12 . ) there was then vzzi . ( neh. 11.22 . ) iezrahiah . ( neh. 12.42 . ) shallum . ( 1. chron. 9.17 . ) under zabdiel , at his hand adaiah . nehem. 11. ver. 12 , 13. amasai . nehem. 11. ver. 12 , 13. vnder vzzi shemaiah . neh. 11.15 , 16. shabbethai . neh. 11.15 , 16. iozabad . neh. 11.15 , 16. vnder iezrahiah mattaniah . neh. 11.17 . bakbukiah . neh. 11.17 . abda . neh. 11.17 . vnder shallum akkub . 1. chron. 9.17 . nehem. 11.19 . talmon . 1. chron. 9.17 . nehem. 11.19 . so that there was 1. the high priest . 2. the second & third , overseers of the priests . 3. the princes of the priests . 4. the priests . 5. the overseer of the levits . 6. the princes of the levits . 7. the levits . 8. the heads of the nethinims . 9. the nethinims : of the gibeonits . 9. the nethinims : of salomons servants . [ a briefe recapitulation of the degrees observed under the government of the old testament : with an accommodation thereof unto the new ] out of these we gather this forme to have been . i. moses : [ in whom was ] the supreme jurisdiction , to visit aaron . ( num. 3.10 . ) ii. aaron : the high priest . ( levit. 21.20 . num. 35.28 . nehem. 3.1 . ) head . ( 2. chron. 19.11 . ) prince of the house of god . ( 1. chron. 9.11 ) iii. eleazar : the second . ( 2. king. 25.18 . ) prelate of prelats . ( num. 3.22 . ) chiefe overseer , or bishop ( ier. 20.1 . ) at his hand , ithamar . iv. prince of the tribe . ( 1. chron. 27.17 . ) v. elizaphan . eliasaph . zuriel . prelats . ( num. 3.24 , &c. ) overseers or bishops . ( neh. 11.14 , 22. ) vi . [ in ] the xxiv . courses set by david ; the princes of the priests . ( ezr. 8.29 . ) the princes of god . 1. chr. 24.5 . the princes of the sanctuary . 1. chr. 24.5 . elders of the priests . ( ierem. 19.1 . 2. king. 19.1 . ) heads of the families . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ( nehem. 12.12 . ) chiefe priests . ( act. 19.14 . ) vii . the priests themselves : whether at ierusalem ; or in the countrey townes . ( 2. chron. 31.19 . ) viii . the overseer of the levits . ( nehem. 11.22 . ) ix . the princes of the levits . ( 1. chron. 15.5 . 2. chron. 35.9 . nehem. 12.22 . ) x. the head of the levits officers . the scribe . the singers . ( 1. chro. 16.5 . neh. 12.42 . ) the porters . ( 1. chron. 9.17 . & 15.22 . ) the treasurers . ( 1. chron. 26.24 , 2. chr. 31.12 . ) [ xi . the levits themselves . ] xii . the chief of the nethinims . ( nehem. 11.21 . ) xiii . the nethinims : of the gibeonits . ( ios. 9.21 . ) salomons servants . ( 1. king. 9. 21. nehem. 7.60 . ) it is not only requisite that things be done , and that they be diligently done ( against sloth ; ) but that they be done continually , and constantly . to this end it is , that god appoints overseers : 1. to urge others , if they be slack . ( 2. chron. 24.5 . & 34.13 . ) 2 to keep them in course , if they be well . ( 2. chr. 29.5 . and 31.12 . and 34.12 , 13. ) 3. to punish , if any be defective . ( ierem. 29.26 . ) for which , a power of commanding was in the high priest . ( 1. chron. 23.8 , 18. and 24.6 . and 31.13 . ) a power iudiciall , if they transgressed : ( deut : 17. 9. zach : 3.7 . ezech : 44.24 . under paine of death . ( deut : 17.12 . ) punishment in prison , and in the stocks : ( ier : 29.26 . ) in the gate of benjamin . ( ier : 20.2 . ) officers to cite and arrest : ( ioh. 7.32 . act : 5.18 . ) this corporall . to suspend from the function : ( ezr : 2.62 . ) to excommunicate . ( ezr : 10.8 . ioh. 9.22 . and 12. ) 42. and 16.2 . ) [ this spirituall . ] why may not the like be , [ for the government of the church : ] there is alleaged one only stop . that the high priest was a figure of christ : who being now come in the flesh , the figure ceaseth , & no argument thence to be drawne . [ for answer whereunto , we are to consider ; that ] i. this is the anabaptists only shift . that we are to have no warres : for the warres of the iewes were but figures of our spirituall battell . no magistrate : for their magistrates were but figures of our ministers , pastors , and doctors . and , all by christs comming abolished . ii. christ , being as well king as priest , was as well fore-resembled by the kings then , as by the high priest . so that if his comming take away the one type , it must also the other . if it be said , there was in the king somewhat else beside the representation : the like is and may bee truely said of the high priest . and that some such thing there was , it is plaine by s. paul , who yeelded his obedience to the high priest ; appearing before him , and acknowledging him a governour of the people ( act. 23.5 . ) & that , after the type was expired . which had been meerely unlawfull ; if there had not remained in him somewhat besides the figure . iii. there is no necessity we should presse aaron . for eleazar being princeps principum , that is , having a superiour authoritie over the superiours of the levits [ in aarons life time ] was never by any [ in this point ] reputed a type of christ . so that though aaron be accounted such ; yet eleazar will serve our purpose . as also , 2. chron. 35.8 . we read of three at once : one only of which was the high priest , and a type of christ ; the rest were not . let them answer then to the other twaine , who were rulers or chiefe over the house of god . why it may bee . i. out of dic ecclesiae , [ the new reformers ] ●ell us , we are to fetch our pattern from the iewes : and therefore it seemes they are of opinion , that one forme may serve both us and them . ii. except there should be such a fashion of government , consisting of inequality : i see not in the new testament , how any could perish in that contradiction of core , which s. iude affirmeth . for his plea was for equalitie ; and against the preferring of aaron aboue the rest . iii. the ancient fathers seem to be of minde , that the same forme should serve both . so thinketh s. cyprian , l. 3. ep. 9. ad rogatianum . so s. hierom , ep. 85. ad evagrium . traditiones apostolicae sumptae sunt de veteri testamento . & ad nepotianum , de vitâ clericorum . so st leo . it a veteris testamenti sacramenta distinxit ; ut quaedam ex iis , sicut erant condita , evangelicae eruditioni profutura decerperet : ut quae dudùm fuerant consuetudines iudaicae , fierent observantiae christianae . so rabanus , de institutione clericorum , l. 1. c. 6. they ground this their opinion upon that they see , 1. that the synagogue is called a type or shadow , and the church the very image of the thing . ( heb. 10.1 . ) 2. that god himselfe saith of the christian church under the gentiles ; that he will take of the gentiles , and make them priests and levits to himselfe . ( esai . 66.21 . ) there calling our presbyters and deacons by those legall names . 3. that there is an agreement , in the numbers : xii . num. 1.16 . and luk. 9.1 . lxx . num. 11.16 . & luk : 10.1 . names : angel . malach. 2.7 . and revel. 1.10 . and their often enterchange and indifferent using of priest or presbyter , levite or deacon , sheweth they presumed a correspence & agreement between them . [ thus then ] aaron [ should be answerable unto ] christ . eleazar [ should be answerable unto ] archbishop . princes of priests [ should be answerable unto ] bishops . priests [ should be answerable unto ] presbyters . princes of levits [ should be answerable unto ] archdeacons . levits [ should be answerable unto ] deacons . nethinims [ should be answerable unto ] clerks and sextons . the forme of church-government in the new testament : and first in the dayes of our saviour christ . i. the whole ministery of the new testament was at the first invested in christalone . he is termed our apostle . ( hebr. 3.1 . ) prophet . ( deut. 18.15 . act. 3. 22. ) evangelist . ( esai . 41.27 . ) bishop . ( 1. pet. 2.25 . ) doctor . ( mat. 23.10 . ) diaconus . ( rom. 15.8 . ) ii. when the harvest was great , ( matth. 9.38 . ) that his personall presence could not attend all ; he took unto him xii . apostles : as the xii . patriarchs , or xii . * fountaines ( as s. ierom ) or the xii . princes of the tribes . ( num. 1. ) gathering his disciples , ( matth. 10.1 . ) choosing out of them ( luk. 6.13 . ) whom he would ; ( mark . 3.13 . ) called them to him , ( luk. 6.13 . ) made them , ( mark . 3.13 . ) named them apostles . ( luk. 6.13 . ) these he began to send : ( mark . 6.7 . ) gave them in charge , ( mat. 10.1 . and 11.1 . ) to preach the gospell . ( luk. 9.2 . ) to heal . ( matth. 10.1 . luk. 9.2 . ) to cast out devills . ( matth. 10.1 . ) gave them power , ( mat. 10.1 . luk. 9.2 . ) to take maintenance , ( matth. 10.10 . ) to shake of the dust for a witnesse . ( matth. 10.14 . ) so he sent them . ( matth. 10.5 . luk. 9.1 . ) they went and preached . ( luk. 9.6 . ) they returned , and made relationwhat they had done . taught . mark . 6.30 . iii. after this , when the harvest grew so great as that the xii . sufficed not all ; ( luk. 10.1 , 2. ) hee took unto him other lxx . ( as the 70. palme-trees , num. 33.9 . the fathers of families , gen. 46. the elders . num. 11 ) these he declared : ( luk. 10.1 . ) sent by two and two into every city and place , whither he himselfe would come . lb. gave them power , as to the apostles , to take maintenance . ( luk. 10.7 . ) shake off the dust . ( luk. 10.11 . ) heale the sick . luk. 10.9 . preach . luk. 10.9 . tread upon serpents and scorpions , and over all the power of the enemy . ( luk. 10.19 ) these two orders ( as me thinketh ) s. paul , ephes. 3.5 . doth comprehend under the name of apostles and prophets ; by the lxx . understanding prophets : as usually next to the apostles he placeth prophets ever . ( 1. cor. 12.28 . ephes. 4.11 . ) none ofthe of the fathers ever doubted , that these two were two severall orders or sorts : nor that the apostles were superiour to the lxx . it appeareth also , that [ the apostles ] had in them power to forbid to preach : ( luk. 9.49 . ) and that matthias was exalted from the other order to the apostleship . this was then the order , while christ was upon the earth . i. christ himselfe . ii. the xii . ( whose successours were bishops . ) iii. the lxx . ( whose successours were priests . ) iv. the faithfull people or disciples : of whom 500. and more are mentioned , in 1. corinth . 15. 6. and cxx . in act. 1.15 . [ the forme of government , used in the time of the apostles . ] albeit christ saith , the people were as sheep without a shepheard : ( matth. 9. 38. ) yet he tearmeth his apostles haruest men , not shepheards . for while he was in person on earth ; himselfe only was the shepheard , and they but arietes gregis . but at his departure he maketh them shepheards : ( iohn 21.15 . ) as they likewise at theirs . ( 1. pet. 5.2 . act. 20.28 ) of the apostles themselves : and first , of their name . shelicha , which is the syrian name , was the title of certaine legats or commissioners sent from the high priest , to visit the iewes and their synagogues which were dispersed in other countries ; with authority to redresse things amisse . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , among the greekes , were officers of great credit : as by herodotus and demosthenes appeareth . secondly , of their forme ; what it is . not to have been with christ all his time . ( acts 1.21 . ) so were others moe . not to be sent immediately of christ . ( gal. 1.1 . ) so were the lxx . ( luk. 10. ) not to be limited to no one place . ( matth. 28. 19. ) so were others ( luk. 24.33 , 50. ) and s. iames went no whither . not to be inspired of god ; so that they did not erre . so were marke and luke . not to plant churches . so did philip the evangelist . ( act. 8.5 . ) not to work signes and miracles . so did stephen ( acts 6.8 . ) and philip . ( acts 8.6 . ) but over and above these , and with these , that eminent authority or iurisdiction which they had over all ; not only joyntly together , but every one by himselfe : i. of imposing hands in ordination . ( acts 6.6 . ) confirmatiō . ( act 8.17 , 18. ) ii. of commanding . ( the word of the bench . acts 4.18 . and 5.28 . ) 1. thess. 4.11.2 . thess. 3.6 , 12. philem. 8. coloss. 4.10.1 . cor. 14.37.2 . peter 3.2 . titus 1.5.1 . cor. 7.6 , 17. and 11.34 . & 16.1 . iii. of countermanding . ( luke 9.49 . acts 15.24.1 . tim. 2.12 . ) iv. of censuring . ( 1. cor. 4.21.2 . cor. 13.10 . gal. 5.12.1 . tim. 1.20.1 . cor. 5.5 , 11.2 . thess. 3.14 . matth. 16.19 . with 18.18 . and iohn 20.23 . ) in this power it is , that the bishops succeed the apostles . irenae . lib. 3. cap. 3. tertull. de praescript . cyprian . ad florent . 3.9 . epiphan. haeres . 27. ( romae fuerunt primi petrus & paulus , apostoli ijdem ac episcopi . ) chrysost. in act. 3. ( iacobus episcopus hierosolymitanus . ) hieronym . epist. 85. & 54. ad marcellam : & de scriptorih . ecclesiast . in petro & iacobo . ambros : in 1. corinth : 11. ( de angelis : ) & in ephes. 4. ( apostoli . angeli sunt . ) of deacons . at the beginning , the whole weight of the churches affayres lay upon the apostles . the distribution as well of the sacrament . ( act. 2. 42. ) as of the oblations . ( act. 4.35 . ) the ordination . ( acts 6.6 . ) the government . ( acts 5.3 . ) [ but ] upon occasion of the greeks complaint , whose widowes were not duly regarded in the dayly ministration ( which was as well of the sacrament , as of the oblations : otherwise the apostles would not have left out [ the mention of ] the sacrament , in acts 6.4 . ) they transferred that part upon the vii . [ deacons . ] whom they had ordayned for distribution [ of the sacrament , ] not for consecration . act. 6.1 . tim. 3.12 , 13. iustin. apolog. 2. ignatius ad heronem . tertull : de baptismo . cyprian de lapsis : & lib. 3. epist. 9. chrysostom . hom. 83. in matth. hieron. ep : 48. ad sabinianum : & contra lucifer . ambros. offic. lib. 1. cap. 41. gregor. 4.88 . concil. nicaen . 1. can. 14. of evangelists . they grew upon occasion of the scattering of the disciples by means of the persecution after the death of s. stephen . ( acts 11.19 . ) of which number s. philip is reckoned : ( acts 21.8 . ) and diverse others . ( acts 11.19 . ) of whom eusebius maketh mention , lib. 3. cap. 37. and lib. 5. cap. 10. upon these was transferred that part of the apostles function , which consisted in preaching from place to place . of priests . vvhen the churches were in some sort planted by the preaching of the apostles , prophets , and evangelists : that they might be continually watered , and have a standing attendance ; the apostles ordained priests by imposition of hands in every church . ( acts 14.23 . and 11.30 . and 21.18 . ) and they made choyce of the word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , rather then of the word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ( more in use with the greeks : ) because it includeth an embassie , and that chiefly of reconciliation . which is the {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , expressed by s. paul , in 2. corinth . 5.20 . ( with luke 14.32 . ) of bishops . last of all , that the churches thus planted and watered , might so continue , the apostles ordained overseers , to have a generall care over the churches , in stead of themselves who first had the same , which is called {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , acts 15.36 . and containeth in it , as a strengthning or establishing that which is already well ; ( acts 14.22 . and 15.41 . revel : 3. 2. ) so a rectifying or redressing , if ought be defective or amisse . ( tit : 1.5 . ) these are called , acts 20.28 . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} in the syrian , that is , episcopi . by s. iohn , revel. 1.20 . the angells of the churches . [ these were set over others , both to rule and teach . ] 1. tim: 5.17 . 1. pet : 5.2 . upon these was transferred the chiefe part of the apostolick function : the oversight of the church . power of commanding , correcting , ordaining . the occasion which caused the apostles to appoint bishops , [ besides the patterne in the time of the law , ] seemeth to have been schismes . such as were in the churches of rome . rom. 16.17 . corinth . 1. cor. 1.11 . [ and 3.3 , 4. ] galatia . gal. 5.12 . ephesus . ephes. 4.2 , 3. philippi . phil. 4.2 . colossi . coloss. 3. 13. thessalonica . 2. thess. 3.11 . the hebrews . hebr. 13.9 . iam. 3.1 . for which s. cyprian , s. hierome and all the fathers , take the respect to one governour to be an especiall remedy . [ for which also see ] calvin . instit. lib. 4. cap. 4. § . 2. this power even in the apostles time was necessary . for god chargeth not his church with superfluous burdens . yet had they such graces ( as power of healing , doing signes , sundry languages , &c. ) that they of all other might seem best able to want it . for by these graces they purchased both admiration and terrour sufficient for crediting their bare word in the whole church . if necessary then in their times , that were so furnished : much more in the ages ensuing , when all those graces ceased , and no meanes but it to keep things in order . so that , were it not apparant to have been in the apostles : yet the necessity of the times following , destitute of these helps , might enforce it . seeing then god hath no lesse care for the propagation and continuance of his church , then for the first setling or planting of it : ( eph. 4. 13. ) it must needs follow , that this power was not personall in the apostles , as tyed to them only , but a power given to the church ; and in them for their times resident ( but not ending with them , as temporary ) but common to the ages after and continuing ( to whom it was more needfull then to them ) to represse schisme and to remedy other abuses . so that the very same power at this day remaineth in the church ; and shall to the worlds end . of the persons , [ that executed these offices . ] i. albeit the commission were generall over all nations , which was given to the xii . yet was that generality only by permission , not expresse mandatory . else should they have sinned that went not through all nations . therefore howsoever the commission was to all nations : yet was it left to their discretion , how and in what sort they would dispose themselves , as the holy ghost should direct them . so that the partition , gal. 2. 9. betwixt s. peter and s. paul , was lawfull and good , and no wayes derogatory to ite , praedicate . [ goe , teach all nations . ] further , the ecclesiasticall history doth testify , that they parted the coasts and countries of the world among them by common advise : and so severed themselves ; peter , to pontus , galatia , cappadocia . iohn , to asia , parthia . andrew , to scythia , [ pontus ] euxinus and byzantium . philip , to upper asia , and to hierapolis . thomas , to india , persia and the magi . bartholmew , to armenia , lycaonia , india ●iterior . matthew , to aethiopia . simeon , to mesopotamia , persia , aegypt , afrique , britany . thaddaeus , to arabia , idumaea , mesopotamia . matthias , to aethiopia . ii. againe , albeit their preaching was for the most ambulatory : yet doe the same histories witnesse , that having setled religion , and brought the church to some stay ; toward their end they betook themselves to residence in some one place , diverse of them . as , s. iames at ierusalem . ( euseb. lib. 2. cap. 1. epiphan. haer. 66. hierome . ) s. iohn at ephesus . ( euseb. lib. 3. cap. 26. tertullian . lib. 4. contra marcion . hierome . ) s. peter , first at antioch ; and after at rome . which places were more especially accompted their sees : and the churches themselves , after a more especiall manner , were called apostolick . sedes apostolorum . augustin . epist. 42. ecclesiae apostolicae , tertullian . iii. thirdly , it is also plaine , that the apostles chose unto them as helpers ( {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) divers , who were companions with them in their journies , ministred unto them , & supplyed their absence in diverse churches , when they themselves were occasioned to depart . such were : apollos . ( act. 19.1 . 1. cor. 3.6 . ) aquila . ( rom. 16.3 . ) archippus . ( philem. 2. colos. 4. 17. ) aristarchus . ( act. 20.4 . ) clemens . ( phil. 4.3 . ) crescens . ( 2. tim. 4.10 . ) demetrius . ( 3. iohn . 12. ) epaphras . ( colos. 4.12 . & 1.7 . & philem. 24. ) epaphroditus . ( ph. 2.23 . ) epaenetus . ( rom. 16.5 . ) erastus . ( act. 19.22 . ) gaius . ( act. 20.4 . ) iesus iustus . ( col. 4.11 . ) iohn mark . ( act. 13.5 . & 15.37 . & philem. 24. ) lucas . ( philem. 24. col. 4.14 . ) secundus . ( act. 20.4 . ) silvanus . ( 1. pet. 5. 12. 1. thess. 1. 1. 2. thess. 1.1 . ) sopater . ( act. 20.4 . ) sosthenes . ( 1. cor. 1.1 . ) stephanas . ( 1. cor. 16. 15. ) timotheus . ( act. 19.22 . & 20.4 . ) titus . ( 2. cor. 8.23 . ) trophimus . ( act. 20.4 . ) tychicus . ( act. 20.4 . ) vrbanus . ( rom. 16.9 . ) of whom , eusebius , lib. 3. hist. cap. 4. euthymius , in tertium iohannis ; isidorus , de patrib . and dorothei synopsis . to two of these , timothy and titus , the one at ephesus the other at crete , ( euseb. lib. 3. cap. 4. ) the apostles imparted their owne commission , while they yet lived , even the chiefe authority they had . to appoint priests . ( tit. 1.5 . & hieron. in eum locū . to ordaine them by imposition of hands . ( 1. tim. 5.22 . 2. tim. 2.2 . ) to keep safe and preserve the depositum . ( 1. tim. 6.14 , 20.2 . tim. 1.14 . ) to command not to teach other things . ( 1. tim. 1.3 . tit. 3.9.2 . tim. 2.16 . ) to receive accusations . ( 1. tim. 5.19 , 21. ) to redresse or correct things amisse . ( tit. 1.5 . ) to reject young widowes . ( 1. tim. 5.11 . ) [ to censure hereticks and disordered persons , tit : 1.11 . and ] 3.10.1 . tim: 6.5.2 . tim. 3.5 . and these , after the apostles deceased , succeeded them in their charge of government , which was ordinary , successive and perpetuall : their extraordinary guifts of miracles and tongues ceasing with them . [ so ] irenaeus , lib. 3. cap. 3. quos & successores relinquebant ; suum ipsorum locum magisterii tradentes . [ of the promiscuous use of their names . ] these were they whom posterity called bishops . but in the beginning , regard was not had to distinction of names . the authority and power was ever distinct : the name not restrained , either in this , or other . the apostles were called priests or seniors . ( 1. pet. 5.1 . ) deacons or ministers . ( 1. cor. 3.5 . ) teachers or doctors . ( 1. tim. 2.7 . ) bishops or overseers . ( acts 1.20 . ) prophets . ( acts 13.1 . revel. 22.9 . ) evangelists . ( 1. cor. 9.16 . ) the name of apostle was enlarged , and made common to more then the xii . to barnabas . ( act. 14.4 , 14. . ) andronicus . ( rom. 16.7 . ) epaphroditus . ( phil. 2. 25. ) titus and others . ( 2. cor. 8.23 . ) timothy . ( hieron in cant. chr. euseb. ) the priests were called prophets . ( 1. cor. 14.32 . ) bishops . ( philip . 1.1 . tit. 1.7 . ) so chrysostom , in philip . 1. [ quid hoc ? an unius civitatis multi erant episcopi ? nequaquàm : sed presbyteros isto nomine appellavit . tune enim nomina adhuc erant communia . ] hierome : hîc episcopos presbyteros intelligimus ; non enim in unâ urbe plures episcopi esse potuissent . theodoret : non fieri quidem poterat , ut multi episcopi essent unius civitatis pastores ; quo fit , ut essent soli presbyteri , quos vocavit episcopos . & in 1. tim. 3. eosdem olim vocabant episcopos & presbyteros : eos autem qui nunc vocantur episcopi , nominabant apostolos . oecum●nius : non quòd in unâ civitate multi essent episcopi , &c. for in the apostles absence in churches new planted , the oversight was in them ; till the apostles ordained and sent them a bishop , either by reason of some schisme or for other causes . the bishops ( as the ecclesiasticall history recounteth them ) were called apostles . ( philip . 2.25 . ) evangelists . ( 2. tim. 4.5 . ) diaconi . ( 1. tim. 4.6 . ) priests . ( 1. tim. 5.17 . ) [ for it is plaine by the epistle of irenaeus to victor , in ] eusebius , lib. 5. cap. 26. that they at the beginning were called priests , that in very truth and propriety of speech were bishops . and by theodoret [ in 1. tim. 3. ] that they which were bishops , were at the first called apostles . the name {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , saith suidas , was given [ by the athenians to them which were sent to oversee the cities that were under their jurisdiction . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . suid. in {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . ] the name episcopus was given among the romans to him , qui praeerat pani & vaenalibus ad victum quotidianum . ff. de munerib . & honorib . cicero , ad atticum lib. 7. epist. 10. vult me pompeius esse , quem tota haec campania & maritima ora habeat episcopum . the name in hebrew {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} gen. 41.34 . seemeth to have relation to the second use . for they were such as had charge of the graine laying up , and selling under ioseph . [ the necessary use of the bishops office , and the charge committed to him . ] the party , who in the new testament is called episcopus , is in the old called {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ( psal. 109.8 . with act. 1.20 . ) in a house or familie , it is first affirmed of ioseph , gen. 39.4 , who had the oversight and government of the rest of the servants . in a house there may be many servants , which have places of charge : but there is one that hath the charge of all ; that is , oeconomus , the steward . so doe the apostles terme thēselves . ( 1. cor. 4.1 . ) and their office . ( 1. cor. 9.17 . ) and their successours the bishops . ( tit. 1.7 . ) vid. hilar. in matth. 24.45 . in a flock , the pastour . ( ioh. 21.15 . act. 20.28 . mat. 25.32.1 . pet. 5.2 . ephes. 4.11 . ) in a camp , the captaine . ( matth. 2.6 . hebr. 13.7 , 17 , 24. ) in a ship , the governour : ( 1. cor. 12.28 . ) under whom others . ( act. 13.5 . ) in the common-wealth , they be such as are set over officers , to hasten them forward , and see they doe their duties . as in 2. chron. 34.12 . and 31. 13. nehem. 11.22 . and 12.42 . so that , what a steward is in a house , a pastour in a flock , a captaine in a camp , a master in a ship , a surveiour in an office : that is a bishop in the ministerie . upon him lieth , [ to take care of the churches under him . ] 2. cor. 11.28 . philip . 2.20.1 . pet. 5.2 . concil. antiochen . can. 9. [ and for that end to visit them . ] act. 9.32 . and 15.36 . [ and to be observant ] of that which is well and orderly ; [ to confirme it . ] act. 15.41 . revel. 3.2 . otherwise ; [ to redresse it . ] tit. 1.5 . to him was committed ; 1. authority of ordeyning : ( tit. 1.5 . ) and so of begetting fathers . ( epiph. haeres . 75. ) see ambrose , theodoret and oecumenius , in 1. timoth. 3. damasus , epist. 3. hierome , epist. 85. ad evagr. leo , epist. 88. concil. ancyran . can. 12. al. 13. for though s. paul should mention a companic with him at the ordeyning of timothie : ( 1. tim. 4.14 . ) yet it followeth not , but that he onely was the ordeyner . no more , then that christ is the onely iudge : although the xii . shall sit with him on thrones . ( luc. 22.30 . ) ii. authority of enjoyning or forbidding . ( 1. tim. 1.3 . ignat. ad magnesian . cyprian . epist. 39. ) iii. authority of holding courts , and receiving accusations . ( 1. tim. 5.19.1 . cor. 5.12 . revel. 2.2 . augustin . de opere monachor . cap. 29. ) iv. authority of correcting . ( 1. tim. 1.3 . tit. 1.5 . hieron. contra lucifer . cap. 4. & epist. 53. ad riparium . cyprian . ep. 38. ad rogatianum . ) v. authority of appointing fa●●s . ( tertullian advers. psychicos . ) finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a25413e-130 prov. 32. 15. 2. cor. 8.18 . dan. 12.3 . iob. 13 7. rom 3.17 . iob. 40.4 , 5. psal. 72.3 , 6. psal. 122.6 . notes for div a25413e-890 * antiquit. l. 4. c. 8. * ix . notes for div a25413e-9480 * exod. 15.27 . num. 33.9 . act. 5.5 , 15. 13. 11. 2. 11. 10. 46. 14. 11. 8. 13. 5.11 , 13. vid. ●ieronym . epist. 4. ad rusticum ( cap. 6. ) & epist. 8● . ad evagrium . master grimstons argvment concerning bishops with mr. seldens answer also severall orders newly made in parliament concerning chvrch government. grimston, harbottle, sir, 1603-1685. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a42163 of text r23474 in the english short title catalog (wing g2028). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 5 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 4 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a42163 wing g2028 estc r23474 12764782 ocm 12764782 93559 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a42163) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 93559) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 254:e165, no 9) master grimstons argvment concerning bishops with mr. seldens answer also severall orders newly made in parliament concerning chvrch government. grimston, harbottle, sir, 1603-1685. selden, john, 1584-1654. [2], 5 p. s.n.], [london? : 1641. reproduction of original in thomason collection, british library. eng church of england -bishops -17th century. church polity. a42163 r23474 (wing g2028). civilwar no master grimstons argument concerning bishops: with mr. seldens answer. also severall orders newly made in parliament concerning church gover grimston, harbottle, sir 1641 869 1 0 0 0 0 0 12 c the rate of 12 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2004-09 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-09 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-10 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2004-10 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-01 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion master grimstons argvment concerning bishops : with mr. seldens answer . also severall orders newly made in parliament concerning chvrch government . printed 1641. master grimstons argument concerning bishops . 1. that bishops are iure divino is a question . 2. that arch-bishops are not iure divino is out of question . 3. that ministers are iure divino there is no question . now if bishops which are questioned whether iure divino , and arch-bishops which out of question are not jure divino , should suspend ministers that are iure divino , i leave it to you master speaker . master seldens answer . 1. that the convocation is iure divino is a question . 2. that parliaments are not iure divino is out of question . 3. that religion is jure divino there is no question . now master speaker , that the convocation which is questioned whether iure divino , and parliaments which out of question are not iure divino , should meddle with religion , which questionlesse is iure divino , i leave to you master speaker . master grimstons reply . but arch-bishops are no bishops . master seldens answer . that 's no otherwise true then that the iudges are not lawyers , and aldermen are not citizens . severall orders concerning church government . 1. every severall shiere of england and wales to be a severall circute or diocesse for the ecclesiastick iurisdiction excepting yorkshiere , which is to be divided into three . 2. a constant presbitry of twelve choyce divines , to bee selected in every shiere or diocesse . 3. a constant president to bee established as a bishop over this presbitry . 4. this bishop in each diocesse to ordaine , suspend , deprive , degrade , and excommunicate by and with the consent and assistance of seaven divines of his presbitry , then present and not else . 5. the times of ordination throughout the land to be foure times in the yeare , viz. 1. may 1. august 1. november , 1. february . 6. every bishop constantly to reside within his diocesse , in some one prime or chiefe city or towne within his diocesse as in particular . 7. every bishop to have one speciall particular congregation to be chosen , out of the most convenient place for distance from his chief residence , and the richest in valew that may be had , whe●e he shall duely preach , unlesse he be lawfully hindred , and then shall take care his cure be well supplyed by an other . 8. no bishop shall romove , or bee translated from the bishopricke which hee shall first undertake . 9. vpon every death , or other avoydance of a bishop , the king to grant a conge de cleire to the whole clergy of the whole diocesse , and they to present three of the presbitry aforesaid , and the king to choose and nominate whom he pleaseth of them . 10. the first presbiters of every shiere to be named by the parliament , and afterwards upon the death or other avoydance of any presbiter , the remaining presbiters to choose one other out of the parish ministers of that shiere , and this to bee done within one moneth next after such death or avoydance . 11. no bishop or clergy man to exercise or have any temporall office , or seculer imployment but onely for the present to hold and keepe the probate of wills , untill the parliament shall otherwise resolve . 12. the bishop once a yeare ( at midsomer ) to summon a diocesan synod , there to heare , and ( by generall vote ) to determine all such matters of scandall in life , and doctrines amongst clergy men , as shall be presented unto them . 13. every three yeares a nationall synod to bee , which ( for persons ) shall consist of all the bishops in the land , and of two presbiters to bee chosen by the rest out of each presbitry , and of two clerkes to be chosen out of every diocesse by the clergy thereof . 14. this nationall synod to make and ordaine cannons , for the goverment of the church , but they not to bind untill they bee confirmed by parliament . 15. every bishop to have over and above the benefice aforesaid , a certaine constant rent allowed , and allotted proportionall to the diocesse wherein hee is to officiate . that is to say — 16. every presbiter to have a constant yearely profit above his benefice . as for the revenew of the bishops , deanes , and chapters , &c. a strict survey to be taken of all their rents and profits , and the same to bee represented at the beginning of our next convencion , and in the meane time no lease to be renewed , nor timber to bee felled . finis . diotrephes catechised, or, sixteen important questions touching the ecclesiastical jurisdiction and censures (contradistinct to civill) now eagerly pretended to and challenged by a divine right, by some over-rigid presbyterians and independents propounded to both these dissenting parties for the further discovery of truth, the preservation of the civil christian magistrates interest, and speedier comprimising [sic] of our present unhappy controversies touching church-government ... / proposed, published by w. prynne ... prynne, william, 1600-1669. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a56155 of text r31935 in the english short title catalog (wing p3945). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 56 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 9 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a56155 wing p3945 estc r31935 12276974 ocm 12276974 58471 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a56155) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 58471) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1512:14) diotrephes catechised, or, sixteen important questions touching the ecclesiastical jurisdiction and censures (contradistinct to civill) now eagerly pretended to and challenged by a divine right, by some over-rigid presbyterians and independents propounded to both these dissenting parties for the further discovery of truth, the preservation of the civil christian magistrates interest, and speedier comprimising [sic] of our present unhappy controversies touching church-government ... / proposed, published by w. prynne ... prynne, william, 1600-1669. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a56155 of text r31935 in the english short title catalog (wing p3945). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread 16 p. printed for michael sparkes, london : 1646. running title: sixteen important questions, touching, ecclesiasticall iusisdiction and censures. reproduction of original in the harvard university library. eng church and state -england. church and state -presbyterian church. church polity. a56155 r31935 (wing p3945). civilwar no diotrephes catechised: or sixteen important questions touching the ecclesiastical jurisdiction and censures (contradistinct to civill) now e prynne, william 1646 9881 84 0 0 0 0 0 85 d the rate of 85 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the d category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2002-03 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2002-04 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2002-05 tcp staff (michigan) sampled and proofread 2002-05 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2002-06 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion diotrephes catechised : or sixteen important questions touching the ecclesiastical jurisdiction and censures ( contradistinct to civill ) now eagerly pretended to and challenged by a divine right , by some over-rigid presbyterians , and independents . propounded to both these dissenting parties , for the further discovery of truth ; the preservation of the civill christian magistrates interest , and speedier comprimising of our present unhappy controversies touching church-government : on which many now so over-dote , as to place the whole kingdome of christ and substance of religion therein ; to repute all our former reformation , a meere nothing ; the church of christ undone , and the exercise of their ministry , not onely fruitlesse but unlawfull , so as they cannot with good conscience continue , but threaten to relinquish it , in case they cannot obtain their demands of such an exorbitant power , by divine institution , which christ and his apostles never claimed , exercised , nor themselves , nor predecessors , ever formerly enioyed , petitioned for , or pretended to in any age , but this . proposed ; published by w. prynne a well-wisher to verity and vnity . the second edition with some enlargements . lu. 22 24. 25. 26. math. 20. 25. 26. 27. and there was a strife among them , which of them should be accounted the greatest . but iesus called them unto him and said ; ye know , that the princes of the gentiles exercise lordship ( or dominion ) over them , and they that are great exercise authority upon them ; but it shall not be so among you ; but whosoever will be great among you , let him be your servant ; even as the sonne of man came , not to be ministred unto , but to minister . 1 pet. 5. 2 , 3 , 5. feed the flock of god which is among you , taking the oversight , ( or care ) thereof , not by constraint , but willingly ; not for filthy luchre , but of a ready mind , neither as over-ruling , ( or being lords over ) gods heritage , but being ensamples to the flock : yea all of you , be ye subject one to another , and be cloathed with humility ; for god resisteth the proud , and giveth grace to the humble . london printed for michael sparkes . anno dom. 1646. sixteene important questions touching the ecclesiasticall iurisdiction and censures , contradistinct to civill , now challenged by a divine right . the serious consideration of the importunate claimes of a new kinde of ecclesiasticall iurisdiction , by a pretended divine right , by those very men who of late so eagerly declaymed against the old , as antichristian and papall , when challenged by our prelats upon the selfe-same grounds and title , hath induced me to propound these few important questions to the over-●…asger prosecutors of this supposed divine authority , at leastwise to moderate , if not extomgio●… those unseasonable deplorable late kindled flames of contention , which if not timely prevented may prove more fatall to our churches kingdomes , then all the former dissentions , and break forth into a new civill warre , betweene our selves , when we have totally vanquished the common enemy . the prelates deserting of their undoubted jus hum inum , and unadvised challenge of a ius divinum to advance , perpetuate their iurisdictions , and sweating men to this their title by a new , &c. oath , was the immediate forerunner , yea principall meanes of the utter subversion both of their hierarchy and authority . and wee have cause to feare that some over-ridged presbyterians in considerate zeale , in waving the presbyteriall authority vested in them by an unquestionable ordinance of parliament ( to their full contents as most men deemed ; ) and resorting to a more dubious disputable ( pretended ) ius divinum ( formerly laid aside by both houses of parliament and the assembly , though now resumed , revived , ) the more highly to advance and firmely settle it in ou●… churches , may produce the like contrary unexpected effects : and either revive the old exploded luciferian episcopacy , or introduce that more feared anarchicall hydra or bable of independenc y , which they most endeavour to suppresse ; or at leastwise revolve the censorius or corrective power of all scandalous sinnes and sinners into the civill majestrates hands , the farre safest of the three : on whose be●…e , i shall with the spirit of peace and meeknesse propose these following queries , both to my presbyterian and independent brethren ; desiring their acquiescens in or serious answers to them after sound deliberation , laying aside all private interests and designes , whatsoever , which may misguide their judgements ) for the sifting out of that one golden medium of sacred truth , which can only reconcile and ●…ordially re-unite us in the bonds of love . 1. whether all scandalous sins and offences now pretended by presbyteri●…s or 〈◊〉 to be of eccle●…sticall cognisance , be not by gods own institution and command [ as well before , as undet the law , and through out the old testament , ] inquirable , examinable , and to be determined , in ged only by the temporall majestrates , or civil powers , and punished only with temporall or corporall punishments , not by any ecclesiasticall persons , officers , or church-censures only , distinct from civill ; since , we read , that the severall scandalous sinnes of (a) idolatry , (b) cursing , blaspheming , (c) sabbath-breaking , (d) disobedience to parents natural or civill , (e) whoredome , adultery (f) incest , rape , sodomy , buggery , (g) murther , (h) witchcraft , sorcery , with sundry other sinnes , were by gods owne precept , to be inquired after , censured , punished by the temporall majestra'e , civill congregation , powers people and only , with civill punishments alone , as putting or stoning to death , burning , [ i ] hanging (k) fines , stripes and the like , but never enjoyned to be examined , censured by ecclesiasticall persons , officers or to be punished by them with church-censures , as excommunication , suspention from the passeover , circumcision , sacrifices , festivalls , or any publike ordinances then in use , or exclusion from the temple or synagogues , as the marginall texts demonstrat . and more especially ezra . 7. 25. 26. where king artaxerxes sending ezra the priest ( descended linially from the high-priests before him , as is evident by v. 1. to 6 ) up to ierusalem , with a speciall commission to repaire the city , temple , restore the service of god therein , and settle the government of that place according to the law of god , gives him this command : and thou ezra , after the wisdome of thy god , that is in thine hand , set majestrates and iudges that may judge all the people that are beyond the river , all such as know the la●… of thy god , and teach yee them that know them not : and whosoever will not do the law of thy god , and the law of the king ; let iudgement be executed speedily against him , ( not by ezra the priest , or any ecclesiasticall consistory or presbytery of priests , with meere ecclesiasticall censures of excommunication or suspention from the temple , or publike ordinances of god , no such church-officers punishments being then known , or instituted by gods law ; but by the majestrates and judges appointed , who were to punish them only with temporall censures as the following words thus resolve ) whether it be unto death , or to banishment , or to confiscation of goods or to imprisonment : the only punishments , censures then inflicted on delinquents against gods law , as well as against the kings : yea had there bin any other censures ecclefiasticall distinct from these temporall , which ought by any divine right or institution to have bin then inflicted upon notorious scandalous offendors against gods law , by the high priest , or any other church officers or iudicatory , no doubt this devcut king upon this occasion would have expresly commanded ezra the priest himselfe , or those church-officers or judicatories to have duly executed the same , when he gave him this large commission , and extended so much extraordinary favour to him , that he cryes out in the very next ensuing words . v. 27. blessed be the lord god of our fathers , who hath put such a thing as this into the kings heart , &c. which as it expresly determines , that this commission , and forecited direction was inspired into the kings heart by god himselfe , and so most consonant to his written word and law : so it insinuates , that by the law of god in those dayes , all scandalous offenders against gods law were to be punished only by the civill majestrates and judges with civill punishments , not by any ecclesiasticall officers , or iudicatory , with any church-censures whatsoever . this may be further evidenced by the priests , prophets , peoples , and princes proceedings against ieremiah , & vriah , who for preaching and prophecying falsly , ( as was supposed ) were punished by the king , and princes , upon the priests , prophets , & peoples malicious accusation only by * imprisonment & death alone , not by church-cen●res , church iudicatories : yea deuter. 13. 5. false prophets are expresly enjoyned to be put to death by the civill majest●●●s , not punished by the ecclesiasticall powers with excommunications or suspentions . and it is most cleare and undeniable by the 1 king 22. 26. 27. 2 chron. 16. 10. c : 18. 25. 26. math. 14. 3. 4. 5. luk. 22. 23. acts 5. 18. 19. c. 8. 3. c. 12. 2. 3. 4. c. 16. 23. 24. c. 22 19. 20 to 30. c. 24 & 25 , & 26 2 cor. 6 , 5 , hebr. 11 , 36 , 37. that both in the old and new testament false prophets , teachers and broachers of erronious doctrins ; ( or such who were so reputed though true ) yea the apostls & saints of christ , for preaching , professing the gospell and truth of god , amongest the jewes and others who reputed it * heresie , scisme , or false doctrine , contrary to what they had formerly received , were usually convented before the civill majestrates , and punished with imprisonment , stripes , putting or stoning to death , and the like , but not with excommunication , or any ecclesiasticall censures of divine institution though now made matters of meere ecclesiasticall cognisance . and if so ; whether the temporall christian majestrates and civill powers , as such , have not now the selfesame divine authority to punish such sinnes and sinners under the gospell , only with temporall punishments , without the interposition , examination or censures of any church-officers or presbyteries , as the godly temporall majestrates & civill powers had then under the law ? if not , how the contrary can be evidenced by cleare scriptures , and by what texts in particular ? 2. whether the texts of deut. 17. 8. to 14. & 2. chron. 19. 8. to the end , do warrant any ecclesiasticall iurisdiction , congregationall or classicall in causes meerely ecclesiasticall , or any meere church censures , distinct from the civill majestracy , and temporall censures , as some now pretend ? whether the genuine scope and sence of these texts , hold forth any more or other jurisdiction and power in the priests , levites , or high priest himselfe , then this : that they joyntly with the temporall iudges , and chiefe of the fathers of israel [ not alone by themselves ] should resolve ( not ordinary plaine , or undisputable , but only ] all such doubtfull , civill cases , or controversies which the ordinary iudges or majestrats in their cities held dubious , or too hard for them to determine aright , between [ not scandall and scandall , ●or who should be excommunicated , suspended from the ordinances as scandalous , ignorant or unfit , and who not ] but , between blood and blood , plea and plea , stroke and stroke , ( being matters of civill controversie ) in their gates ; and between law and commandement , statutes and iudgments , [ to wit the judiciall written law of god ] upon whose exposition any civill doubts , or controversies should arise which the people themselves could not resolve , ] whose superior resolutions they should submit to , and proceed accordingly to execution ; and he that would presumptuously disobey and not submit to their sentence , was not to bee excommunicated or suspended , * but put to death ; ( a meere civill censure ) to terrify others . and if this only be the ful sence and meaning of these texts , whether any episcopal , presbyteriall , classical or congregational iurisdiction to correct scandalls with meer ecclesiasticall censures can be deduced from them ? whether that speech of iehoshaphat 2. chron. 19. 11. and behold amariah the chiefe priest is over you in all matters of the lord ( not scandalous sinnes and ecclesiasticall offences committed by the priests or people , no matters of the lord , but sins of men , detested by the lord ; ] imply or necessarily enforce , that he had any ecclesiasticall iurisdiction in point of judicature , to censure , punish all or any sort of scandalous sinners with church censures [ of which there is not one sillable in the text ] vested in him by any divine authority ? and if so , whether it makes not more for papall and archiepiscopall , then presbyteriall , classicall , or congregationall authority ? this power or superintendent iurisdiction over all matters of the lord , being vested in this high priest alone , and no other . or rather , whether it be not clearly meant , that as king josiah himselfe did by his own regal authority appoint iudges in the land and in jerusalem , in the preceeding 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. & 10. verses , to determin all controversies & punish all offences whatsoever , according to the lawes of god and that kingdom ; so he did by the selfesame regall authority appoint amariah , then chief priest , over the priests & levites only , [ implyed in the word you , not over the people of the land ] in all matters of the lord , that is to order , direct the priests and levites under him in their several courses , and all matters what soever concerning the worship , service oblations , and sacrifices of the lord , to be performed by them in the temple at ierusalem : in the selfesame manner , as he set zebadiah the ruler of the house of judah , over all the kings matters ; in the very next ensuing words ? that is , ( as all consent , ) not over the people and kingdome for to judge and governe them for that the iudges forementioned were to do : but over his househould , lands , revenews as his lord treasurer , or lord high steward of the revenewes of the crowne , as the comparing of it with ●● chron. 26. 30. 33. ( and of the hibronises , hashabiah and his brethren , men of valour a thousand and seven hundred were officers among them of israel on this side jordan westward in all bvsinesses of the lord , & in the service of the king , &c. and his brethren , men of vallour were two thousand seven hundred chiefe fathers , whom king david made rulers over the rubenites , gadites , and the halfe tribe of manasseth , for every matter pertaining vnto god and officers of the king ; joyntly : ( therefore church officers made only by the king , and alterable at his pleasure , not by any divine institution of god himselfe ; ) and the paralelling it with these explanatory texts , 1 chron. 9. 10. to 35. c. 23. & 24. & 25. & 26. 2 chron. 5. 7. to 14. c. 8. 14. 15. c. 13. 9. 10. 11. 12. c. 26. 16. to 21. c. 29. 3. to 35. c. 30. 16. c. 31. 2. 3. 11. to 20. c. 35. 2. 12. ezra . 6. 17. 18. neh. 12. 40. to 47. compared with heb. 5. 1. 2. for every high priest taken from among men , is ordained for men in things pertaining to god , that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sinnes , &c. insallibly demonstrate ? and if so , then what divine warrant is there from hence for any such ecclesiasticall jurisdiction distinct from the temporall as many now contend for , from these two noted texts ? or for any priests , ministers of the gospell , or church officers distinct from the temporall majestracy , to examine , correct any scandalous ostences by a meere ecclesiasticall power , or to punish them with church censures , disterent from civill punishments ? 3. whether the priests iurisdiction to judge of (l) all causes of leprosie ( no scandalous sin nor offence , but a meer naturall infirmity , ) and that only among the jewes , yea as well in houses , garments , vessells , [ no subjects of ecclesiasticall censures ] as persons : or their proceedings in the case of (m) jelousie , by vertue of expresse speciall leviticall or judiciall lawes ( the only cases wherein the priests were appointed to be as judges in the old testament , whose proper office was , (n) to offer sacrifices and make attonement for sinnes , not to censure or punish them ; ] bee any infallible proofe of the aaronicall priests or presbyteries ecclesiasticall iudicature or jurisdiction to censure all spirituall leprosies of the soule with church censures ? or of the ecclesiasticall jurisdiction of presbyteries or independent congregations to judge or censure all causes of spirituall leprosie , or scandalous offences under the gospell ? and whither wee may not as soundly argue from the writ , * de leproso amovendo ; and the statute of 1 iac. chap. 31. as they from these texts ; majors , bayliffes of townes , justices of peace , constables and other officers may lawfully remove lepers , and shut up persons infected with the plague of pestilence , ergo , they may excommunicate and suspend from the sacrament all such as are scandalously or notoriously infected with the leprosie and plague of sin ? 4. whither , deut. 13. 12 , 13 , 14 , josh. 22. 10. to 34. iudg. 20. 1. to 18. 2 chron. 19. 9. to 11. ezra 10. 16 , 17. [ where we read of temporall officers , princes sent and imployed commissioners , as well as priests , to inquire after idolaters , idolatry , rapes , mariages with heathenish wives , and other ecclesiasticall crimes ] compared together , hee not a stronger scripture evidence for proofe of the parliaments , and lay. commissioners authority , to enquire after , yea punish idolaters and scandalous sinners ; then any texts that can bee produced by the presbyterians or independents out of the old testament for probat of a divine right , either in their classes , presbyteries or independent congregations to censure scandalous sins and sinners with ecclesiasticall censures ? and whither the statutes of 26. hen. 8. cap. 1. 31. hen. 8. c. 10. [ appointing a lay vicegerent in all ecclesiasticall matters ] 37 h. 8. c. 17. 1 e. 6. c. 2. 1. eliz. c. 1. do not justifie such commissioners to be legall as well as these texts , warrant them to be in some sort divine ? 5ly . whether there bee any precept or president in all the old testament directly or punctually determining , that there was by divine institution an unquestionable ecclesiasticall jurisdiction vested by god himselfe in priests , levites , or any jewish officers , to examine witnesses upon oath , convent or censure any scandalous sinners by excommunication , or suspention of them from the tabernacle , temple , publike assemblies , synagougs , sacrifices , solemne publike festivalls , or other sacred ordinances for any scandalous fin whatsoever ? if so , then what are these precepts , presidents , and scandalous sins in particular ? and whether it be probable they had any direct authority given them by god ●…imselfe , to suspend or put backe any from the sacraments of circumcision , or the passeover ( which baptisme and the lords supper now succeed ) since both of them originally were ordered to be performed in private , by the (o) parents or masters of the family , not priests or levites ; and executed or eaten by them in their (p) severall private houses , where the priests and levites had no ecclesiasticall jurisdiction that we read of , and were not present at these sacred actions unlesse onely at some few solemne generall passeovers at ierusalem , where they were but ministeriall , to (q) helpe kill the passeover , and sprinkle the bloud , not magisteriall , to keep any backe from eating thereof , by any pretext of ecclesiasticall authority ? 6ly . whether ministers or presbyteries under the gospell , have any other or greater ecclesiasticall jurisdiction then the jewish high priest , priests , and levites had under the law ? and whither christian kings , magistrates have not as large an ecclesiasticall power and authority under the gospell , as any godly kings or magistrates exercised under the law ? if you answer negatively to the first , and affirmatively to the latter of these demands ; then how can that ecclesiasticall jurisdiction of presbyteries or congregations , and their power of church-censures , distinct from the civill magistracy , be any way justified or maintained by the scripture ? if affirmatively in the first , and negatively in the latter , then shew us direct scripture authorities to convince our judgements of what you thus assert , or else give over your pretence of ius divinum ? it is confessed both by the presbyterians , or independents , and cleare by sundry * expresse texts , that christian majestrates are jure divin●… , and have an undoubted divine authority , yea command to punish and cut off all scandalous sinners , psal. 100 5 , 7 , 8. rom. 13. 1. to 8. pro. 20. 26. whether presbyteries , or independent congregations , have any divine ecclesiasticall right to punish them with church censures , is very disputable and denyed by many . therefore it is the safest , readiest way to unity and reformation , to remit the punishment of all scandalous offences to the civill magistrate , rather than to the pretended disputable questioned a●…hority of presbyteries , classes , or indedependent congregations . 7ly , whether there be any expresse texts in all the new testament , and what in particular , which infallibly evince an ecclesiasticall jurisdiction by divine right to be setled by christ in all christian ministers . presbyteries , or congregations , & in which of them in particular , to continue unalterably in all churches of christ to the end of the world , for the excommunication or suspention of all kinds of scandalous persons from the sacrament , though they externally pretend and professe their sincere repentance in generall ? or any certaine rules prescribed them in the gospell , and in what particular texts fo●… the due execution of this jurisdiction in * all cases or scandalls that may happen ? if not , whether it can probably bee imagined that christ in his wisdome would erect , institute and vest an ecclesiasticall government in church officers , without prescribing them any certain rules wherby to manage it in all particulars , and leave them to proceed in an arbitrary way , according to their mee●… pleasur●… contrary to mat. 28 19. 20. if yea , then produce these texts to us for our satisfaction . 8ly . what rules or presidents are there in scripture to relieve parties grieved by unjust . ecclesiasticall censures either by appeales or other wayes and to what superior tribunals ? if no such rules or presidents appea●…e therin ; ( admitting presbyteries , or congregations ecclesiasticall jurisdictions , censures to be jure divino ] then 〈◊〉 by go●…s own law wch pro●…ides them no re●…iefe , the parties injured must not remain remediles when most injuriously sentenced by any private presbitery , classis , congregation without any help or benefit of appeale to provinciall , nationall synods , parliaments , or the civill magistràte ? and if so : whether this wil not introduce as many absolute tyrannies , and arbitrary tribunals , ( against which we have so much contested of late ) as there are presbyteries , or congregations : especially if we grant them a generall power of all things they themselves shall judge to be scandals , without confining them to particulars , or establish their jurisdictions by a divine right , which no meer humane power or i●…stitution can controll ? ninthly , whither if christ hath instituted or left any exact ecclesiasticall jurisdiction , discipline or power of censures to his church distinct from the civill magistracy and censures , this pretended jurisdiction , discipline or power be so absolute and sufficient of it self alone , as to be fully able to correct , redresse , reforme all abuses , scandalls , corruptions , and suppresse all heresies , schismes , errors , vices , arising in every church ? if ●…ot , then we may justly suspect , it is no reall jurisdiction nor discipline instituted by christ , who would (r) institute and bequeath no incompleate , nor imperfect jurisdiction , judicatory , or discipline to his best-beloved spouse the church : if yea , whither is that jurisdiction now contended for by presoyterians or independents , such ? if so , then it is compleate , and every way selfe-sufficient without the concurrence or assistance of the christian magistrate or any temporall authority to assist , maintaine it , or supply its defects : but this none can truly assert nor affirme . for first , no pres●…ytery , classis , or independent congregation hath yet challenged , nor can claim by divine right , any coercive power by way of attachment , imprisonment , or fine , to bring any party or witnes sommoned so much as to appeare before them , in case of wilfull neglect or refusall to appeare , or bee examined , to prepare any cause ●…or sentence . secondly , in case any ecclesiasticall censure of excommunication or suspention be inflicted by them upon scandalous persons after full hearing , if they absolutely contemne the same or refuse to conforme themselves , or by open violence intrude into the congregation , church or force the minister to give the sacrament to them though excommunicated or suspended . thirdly , in case any hereticke , schismaticke , or prophane person shall wilsu'ly separate from our congregations , ( as thousands now doe ) refufing to communicate with us in any ordinances , proclaming us to bee no churches , and passe a schismaticall sentence of non-communion with us , by reason of some unjust exceptions or pretences against our orthodox doctrine , di●…cipline , or forme of government ; and thereupon refuse to appeare before our presbyteries , congregations , or to submit unto their jurisdictions or censures ; in all these and such like cases , the pretended divine ecclesiasticall power , censures of presbyteries , classes , or independent congregations are at a nonplus , & so defective , invalid of themselves 〈◊〉 enforce obedience to such contumatious , or reduce , reclaime such here●…icall , schismaticall , or prophane persons from their obstinacy , heresies , schismes and neglect of publike ordinances , that they are enforced to pray in ayde from the civill magistrate by capias excommunicatums , imprisonments , fines , or other such civill compulsory means ( the only effectuall course by way of censure used in all ages to suppresse , reform (*) heresies , schismes , and the only way to suppresse , redresse them now ) without which all their ecclesiasticall censures , are both contemptible , ineffectuall , and altogether insufficient to reforme abuses : so that if the magistrates be infidels , hereticks , or schismaticks , who will not ; or prophane , negligent , timorous or licentious persons , who care not or dare not to assist the presoyteries , classes , or congregations , in forcing submission to their church processes , censures , they are so defective and ineffectuall of themselves , that none can justly call , or infallibly prove them to be the kingdome , scepter , government , descip●…ine and censures of christ , whereby his church must onely bee governed , purged , reformed , as some now pretend them to be . 10ly . whither matth. 18. 15. 16 , 17. ( if meant of christian presbyteries or church-officers , as is pretended , not of the civill magistracy or jewish sanhedrim ; ) gives any authority to them to proceed ex officio against notorious scandalous sinnes [ as idolatry , blasphemy , swearing , drunkennesse , &c. ) since it speakes not of any publike scandalous offences against god and the church , but only of private personall * trespasses between man and man , to bee proceeded against only upon the voluntary complaint of the party offended , after previous private admonitions , and then reproofes before witnesses , yea , of such offences , which upon private satisfaction we are to forgive 77. times , without any publike complaint , or censure , luke 17. 3. 4. therefore not meant of meer publike scandalls , which no private man can remit , nor no church or presbyterie will grant that they ought to bee 77. times remitted one after another , without the least suspension or excommunication , upon meer externall shewes of repentance : and whether , thou hast gained thy brother , in this text , be meant properly of gaining him to god by true repentance , or only unto him who gaines him , by way of reconciliation , and renewing friendship , as the phrase it selfe , compared with prov. 18. 19. intimates . 11ly . whether , acts 15. 1. to 36. where a synod of apostles , elders , and brethren met together at jerusalem , to debate and resolve a dubious point of doctrine onely about circumcision , without exercising any act of discipline or ecclesiasticall censure on any scandalous per●…son , be a sound divine authority , to evidence to any mans conscience , the divine right of presbyteries , classes , or independent congregations , to inflict ecclesiasticall censures upon scandalous delinquents , or to examine witnesses upon oath against them , of which there is not one sillable in that text ? 12ly . whether the precept of paul , 1 cor. 5. 13. for putting away from among them the incestuous person , written to this particular church in this one case of incest onely , against which heinous scandalous sinne , being then under heathen magistrates , they could not safely complaine to them of it without great scandall , nor go to law before them for ordinary just civil things without great offence , as appeares by the very next words , 1 cor. 6. 1. to 9. when as by the law of god , had the magistrates there beene jewes or christians , this sinne of incest was to bee punished by them , not with excommunication or suspention from the church , but death it selfe , leviticus 18. 8. c. 20. 11. 12. be any satisfactory or infallible argument for the continuance and exercise of excommunication , or suspention from the sacrament in all churches of christ in all succeeding ages in all other cases of sin or scandal , though the magistrates in them be christian , and may , yea ought to punish those sinnes with death or other temporall censures , if complained of ? vvhether those that presse this text , may not as well conclude from the very next words 1 cor. 6. 1. to 9. that it is unlawfull for christians to go to law before any christian iudges now , and that they must sue only before presbiteries or congregations for meer temporall matters , because paul then commanded the corinthians , not to goe to law before heathen iudges to prevent scandall , but only in the church before the saints , or such iudges as the church should appoint them ? as inferre , that all scandalous persons must be excommunicated and suspended from the sacrament by classes presbyteryes , and censured only by them now , not by the christian majestrate , because the incestuous corinthian was then ordered to be put away and pun●…hed by the church and saints of corinth , for want of a christian majestrate to punish him with death , or corporall censures ? yea whether they may not as logically and theologically argue from the very next chapter . 1 cor. 7. 27. where paul writes thus : i suppose therefore that this is good for the present distresse ( or necessity ) for a man not to touch a woman , or marry ; ergo , it is lawfull , yea necessary for christian men or women in all ages , churches of christ to vow perpetuall virginity , and not to mary at all , as the papists thence inferre in defence of their monks , nons , and u●…married clergy . as reason from this text , that paul in regard of the corinthians present distresse and necessity for want of christian majestrates to punish this incestuous , person with death and civill censures adviseth the church of corinth , to put away from among themselves that wicked person ; [ or thing as some read it : ] ergo all ministers presbyteries , and particular congregations of christ have a divine inherent ecclesiasticall right and power in them to punish not only incestuous persons , but all other scandalous sinners with excommunication , suspention from the sacrament , & other church-censures , even when & where there is no such necessity nor defect of christian magistrates , but sufficient s●…ore of them both able and willing to punish such with civill punishments answerable to their crimes and scandalls ? this is all that can be extracted from this text , whereon they most realy ; which must needs bee a grosse inconsequent , because no apostolicall advice to any one particular church upon a private extraordinary occasion and necessity onely , can or ought to bee a generall binding law or institution of christ to oblige all other . churches whatsoever in the like , or any other cases , where there is no such extraordinary occasion or necessity ; as is cleare by one pregnant evidence in the 16. chap. of this very epistle , c. 1. 2. concerning the collection then advised to be made for the saints , by the corinthians every first day of the weeke , or weekely ; which being but a particular advice and direction to this church for tha●… one collection ; is * no binding law or rule to all other churches of christ strictly to imitate in all their ensuing collections , as is evident by acts 13. 28 , 29 , 30. 2 cor. 8. 1. to 21. c. 9. 1. to 15. r●…m . 13. 25 26. phil. 4. 14. to 20. else no church could since appoint any publike monethly collections on weeke dayes , but onely weekely collections on the lords-day , under paine of transgressing the institustitution of christ and this apostle ; which none dare averre : however , since the apostle writes not here to any classis , presbytery , or presbyt●…r , but to the whole church at corinth ; to put away from among themselves , that wicked person : [ that is , to seclude him wholly from their congregation , church , company , and not so much as to eat with him at their tables or keepe any company with him at all , as is evident by ver. 7. 9. 11. ) not to suspend him onely from the lords supper of which there is not one syllable in this chap. nor of any such suspention in the 10. & 11 chap. where he purposely treates of this sacrament ; we may very well question , whether it makes not more against presbyteries and classes divine power of excommunication , and a bare suspention , of scandalous persons from the lords supper only , without secluding them from all other ordinances and church assemblies as well as it , then for them ; it being contrary to the very difinition & practise of excommunication hitherto knowne and used in the church , to excommunicate a notorious scandalous person from the lord supper only once a moneth , a quarter , a yeare , for feare of infecting others , and yet to admit him daily or weekly to joy ne with the church in all other ordinances but it alone : when all [ a ] schoolmen (b) canonists resolve , t●…at excommunication [ especially that they call major excommunication ] excludes men , not only from the sacrament , but likewise from entring into the church , the society of men , prayers of the faithfull ; and those who wittingly keepe company , buy or sell with such , are to be ipso facto excommunicated . whereas many now pretend it should seclude men from the lords supper only , but not from any other ordinance , contrary to thi●… , to [ c ] other texts and all sound antiquity . 13ly . whether there be any ground or example at all in scripture to enjoyne the civill christian majestrate , in cases of obstinacy , contumacy against church censures , inflicted by presbyteries or congregations to become a meere servant and executioner to presbyteries , congregations or church-officers , ( as the pope and prelates anciently made them . ) to enforce obedience to their censures by imprisonment or other coercive meanes , without any particular examination of the merits of the cause , or justice of the procedings ? whether such ministeriall executions of their censures , if admitted , do not necessarily subject the people to a double jurisdiction , vexation , for one & the selfesame scandalous crime , which may prove more intollerably oppressive to them then the most exo●…bitant country committees , or prelats consistories , if not exactly bounded & subordinat the majestracy to the ministery , presbytery and particular congregations , in point of authority ? which if obliged by any divine law to see church censures executed and enforce obedience to them then certainly christian majestrates as such , must either be church offic●…rs as well as ministers , or lay-elders ; the rather because all precepts given to majestrates themselves in scripture , are given only to such * ] godly or christian majestrates who beleive , embrace the scriptures , and are members of a visible church or christian state , as such ; not to any infidells or heathen majestrates , as heathenish , or meere majestrates out of the church ( as some grosly mistake , ) else they were not obliged by gods law to see church censures executed , obeyed , submitted too , if no church officers . 14ly . whether it be not more agreeable to the word of god , the rules of justice and more conducing to the churches peace for the civill m●…jestrate juditially to examine , punish , all pretended scandalous persons with temporall cen●…ures and then if they still continue impenitent to certifie the proofs taken before him to the 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 or congregation , upon their request , ●…or their conviction t●…ere to ground an ●…xcommunication or suspention upon , if there b●…e cause : then to ●…ive them immediatpower to examine all scandalls themselves upon oath , without first acquainting the civill majest●…ate with it , or desiring his 〈◊〉 examination of the scandalls , of purpose to subject them to church censures ? since wee read of no such examinations upon oath practised by presbyteries , church-officers , or particular congregations among the jewes or christians in scripture : which if taken in writing and recorded ( as they ought to be , that so they may be produced , scanned upon appeales ) there must then be a particular examiner , or register at least appointed in every presbyterie , classis , and provinciall synod to record them ; for which they will expect a constant fee from the church or state , or an answerable recompence from the parties accusing or accused ; which cannot be setled without act or ordinauce of parliament ( being new fees and offices ) and so it will draw a very great unnecessary charge ( farre greater then that of bishops and their officialls ) upon the people , which they wil very unwillingly beare . in which regard it is fitest the civill majestrates or justices of peace should only take the examinations , of scandalls as they do in cases of felony and other crimes , and certify them to the presbyteries , or classis , as there shall be need . 15ly . whether it be not both unjust and unreasonable to presse the parliament to settle any kinde of church-government as prescribed iure divino , before it be clearely demonstrated or manifested to their iudgements consciences to be so , by perspicuous undenyable proofes from scripture ? or to importune them to grant any unlimited arbitrary power to classes , presbiteries , or congregations , to judge of unknowne contingent scandals , ( never yet thus censured from adams or christs dayes til now ] before they can so much as conjecture what they are , or where ever they will bee perpetrated in our churches ? since offences always use to h preceed laws made to punish them ; and , ex malis moribus optimae oriuntur leges , as all polititians have resolved ? whether the demanding of such an unlimited power to be now established , be not as bad yea more unreasonable then the late prelates , &c. oath ( most justly damned declaimed against , ) and savors not more of wilfullnes then conscience , of the spirit of i diotrephes , then of christ , of whose kingdome some pretend it to bee a most necessary and inseperable branch ? and whether any prophet , apostle , godly presbyter , privat congregation or classis , in the primitive church , ever sollicited their princes or parliaments for such an exorbitant unlimited power ? 16. whether christian princes and majestrates k indulging of over-much power , honour , and ecclesiasticall authority in point of iurisdiction , church censures , and excommunication in former ages to the clergy , under this apprehention , perswasion , that they were most pious , conscientious , holy , moderat , just and humble persons who would exercise it for gods glory only , and the churches good ; hath not beene the true originall cause of all that antichristian tyranny , persecution , exorbitances , of popish prelates , and clergymen , which have over-spred , corrupted , infested the church and people of god ? and whether former examples of this kinde may not justly lesson us to beware of the like error for the present ; though our ministers who claime this ecclesiasticall iurisdiction now contested for by a divine right be never so godly , upright , discreet , humble , conscientious , since we know not what many of our ministers , elders , who must exercise it in the country are for the present ; or what the best of them all or their successors at least may prove for the l future , m ( ambition being mans first sinne and most pleasing to our corrupt natures ; as we see by the example of [u] christs owne apostles , and daily experiences every where ) especially when they have engrossed more ecclesiasticall power into their hands by pretext of a divine right , then ever the expresse law of god , or christ himselfe in his gospell hath delegated to them . it is very observable , that while the ( o ) popes claimed their papacy and superiority over other churches by grants and donations from the christian emperors of rome , they were very humble , loyall , and obsequious to them . but after the long enjoyment of their transcendent jurisdiction by imperiall donations had so far puffed them up with pride , as by degrees to desert their true ancient claime , and challenge both their papacy and supremacy by a divine right from christ himselfe , by wresting divers scriptures to their purpose , ( and some of those among others which our divines now principally insist upon , ) they presently cast off both their subjection & loyalty to the emperours at once ; & so prosecuted them with excommunications , interdicts suspentions , rebellions , force of armes , and parties raysed against them in their owne empires ; that at last they quite trampled them under their feete , disposing of their crownes at pleasure , making them sweare solemne homage to them as their vassalls , and to hold their imperiall crownes from them alone , who formetly did homage to , and held their bishoprickes , with all the papall jurisdiction they enjoyed onely from them : yea if our presbyteries , classes or independent congregations shall be admitted to hold and enjoy all the ecclesiasticall jurisdiction they now pretend to , by a divine right ; and the parliament their power , authority , only by a meet humane institution , and not by as cleare a divine right as theirs ; the next consequence i feare will be ( and we see it already maintained in some (x) presbyterians , and more (y) independents printed bookes ; ) that our parliaments , kings , and temporall majestrates must have nothing at all to do with church officers or church government by way of direction , correction , or appeale , but meerly as their subordinate ministers , to ratifie their determinations , and enforce obedience to their censures ; which if they neglect or refuse to doe , or stop their proceedings by any prohibitions , or legall course , for ought i know , when their divine pretended authority is setled to their mindes , the next thing they shall heare of will bee ; that which our kings , iudges , and officers did heretofore from our clergy in archbishop * boniface his time , when they opposed their extravagances , even a serious admonition to obey their dictates , and after that an interdiction of all their lands , castles , townes , with a suspention of them from the sacrament , or excommunication from or non-communion with their congregations for this contumacy : and then lord have mercy upon us miserable sinners , we may sooner bewayle then remove that spiritual yoak of bondage which we thus suffer voluntarily to be imposed both on our owne and others neckes . it being a very difficult taske and work of many ages to moderate , abate , regulate or suppresse any ecclesiastical jurisdiction , though never so exorbitant , especially if once legally setled , or but incroached by coulor of a divine right , as we see by the papacy , and our late exploded prelacy . i shall therefore close up all with the apostles seasonable advice , gal. 5. 1. stand fast therfore in the liberty wherwith christ hath made us f●ee and he not againe intangled with any yoake of bondage , which christ himself hath not imposed on us by a cleare and evident institution in his word : christs * yoake is easie , and his burthen light , to which all people must with cheerefulnesse submit : if the presbyterians yoake , in suspending men from the sacrament for all kind of supposed scandalls , though they professe unfained penitence for al their sins , & earnestly desire to receive it ; or the independents yoak , in non-admitting or secluding those from their congregations whom they judge not reall saints , or will not subscribe to their private church covenants , ( without any expresse precept or president in scripture , to warrant these their practises , proceedings ) bee not such , we may justly suspect and reject them too , as none of christs . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a56155e-650 (a) levit. 20. 〈◊〉 to 8. d●…ut . 13. 4. to 18. c. 17. 2. to 8. io●… 22. 10. to 34 2 chron. 23. 17 15. 13. iudg. 6. 30. 31. 1 king 18. 40. 2. king 10. 20. to 29. c. 11. 18. (b) exod. 21. 17. levit. 20. 9. c. 24. 10. to 17. 1 kings 24. 10 to 16. dan. 3. 29. mat. 26. 65. (c) exod. 21. 14. numb. 15. 32 , to 37 (d) exod. 21. 15 , 17. levit. 20. 9. d●…r . 22 18. 19 , 20. iosh 1. 18. 1. sa. 11 , 12. ezr. 7. 25. 26. (e) gen. 26. 11 c. 38 , 24 , 25 , levit. 20. 10 , 15 , 17 , 18. deutt . 22. 22 to 25 levit. 18. 6. to 30. c. 21. 9 john 8 , 4 , 5 , (f) levit. 18. 22 , to 30. c. 20 , 11 , to 22. exod. 22. 19. indg. 20 , 1. to 15 (g) ●…en . 9. 5. 6 exod. 21. 12 , 13 , 14. levit. 24 , 17. num. 35. 15 , to 34. 1 king. 2. 32 to 35 (h) levit. 20 27. deutr. 18. 11. 1 sam. 28. 9. i deu. 31 22 (k) deut. 22. 28 19. 29 , c. 25 2 , 3 2 cor. 11 , 23. 24. c. 6. 5. deu. 12. 47 , 48 acts 16. 22. 23 * jer. 16 throughout c. 29 , 26 , c. 31. 33 , c. 37 , 18 , 19. c : 38 , & 39 * acts 14 , 14. c. 28. 22 * deutr : 17 , 12 13 (l) lev. c. 13. & 14. (m) numb. 5. 12. to 31. (n) exod. 30. 10. leu. 4. and 5. c. 6. 7. c. 7. 7. 8. . num. 8. 19 21. c. 15. 25 , & c hebr. 5. 1 , 2. 3. * regist. f. 267. f●…t . nat. bre. f. 234. (o) gen. 17. 10. to 28. c. 21 4. c. 24. 22. 23 24 exod. 12. 48. e. 4. 24. 25. 26. luk. 2. 2●… . iohn . 7. 22. josh. 10. 2. 3. 7. acts 7. 8. (p) exod. 12. 〈◊〉 . 4 , 15. 21 , 40. ●…0 46. mat. 26 17. to . 26. m●…r . 14. 12. to 19. (q) 2 chro. 30 13. to 21. c. 35 1. to 20 , ezra . 6. 18. to 22. 1. cor. 10. 1. to 8. compared ●…ogether . * see question 1. in the margin . * i am 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hu●…dreds of cases in summa 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 co●…se us , th●… . ze●…la ; and other canonists tit , ex com 〈◊〉 : ●…nd others , ●…ch 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 in ou●… presbyteries concerning excommunications and suspentions , for the deciding whereof , there is no one rule nor text in scripture : then how can their proceedings 〈◊〉 be jure divin●… ? (r) deut. 22 〈◊〉 2 sam. 22. 31. psal. 19. 7. 2 tim. 3. 1●… (*) i am assured a speciall ( much desired ) active committee to examine and punish the broachers of new blasphemous , hereticall anabaptisticall errors , and gatherers of schismaticall conventicles , would more suppresse them in one month , then all ecclesiasticall judicatories in an age . see iusti●…ian : cod. l. 1. tit. 4. 6. 8. & codex . theod : ●…ib . 16. where we find obstinate hereticks and schis●…naticks , by temporall lawes thus punished and suppressed : 1. they were disabled to inherit by discent , or to purchase any lands ; to buy , sell , make any contract , will , or take any legacy : to sue , or to be witnesses in any court of justice : to beare any office , civill , or military ; to bee present at any councels or elections , or to list themselves souldiers in the army , whence they were cashiered when detected to bee such . 2ly . their goods were all confiscated , or went to their next heires that were orthodox : their persons banished , and in some cases imprisoned and put to death . 3ly . their hereticall ●…ooks were prohibited and burnt , the houses where they kept their diurnall or nocturnall conventicles confiscated , if kept there , with the owners privity or consent : if by the tenants privity without the land-lords , if the tenant were poor ; then he was publikely bastanadoed or whipt , if rich then fined ; and their conventicles both ●…n churches and private places prohibited , suppressed , under severe penalties by these meanes and censures alone heretickes , heresies , scismaticks , have alwayes bin suppressed , restrained in former ●…ges ; but never by church censures , which they both derided and contemned . see frid : lindebrogus codex legum antiqu : leges wisigothor , lib. 13. tit. 2. lex . 2. neap. 1. tit. 1. 2. capital : karoli & lud. l. 5. tit. 183. pauli geschimij , constit : carolinae , rubr. 3. 4 , 5. with our own statutes against recusants , and hereticks ; and these wil be the only meanes to suppresse them now . * so this word trespas is used here , and in , mat. 6. 14 , 15 : luk. 17. 3 , 4. gen. 31. 36. cap. 50 , 17. 1. sam. 25 , 28. though some falsly aver it is never used in scripture but for a trespasse or sin against god . * see 〈◊〉 ●…riumphing over falshoo●… p. 155. 156. al●…xa . a ensis●…um . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 4. q●… . 21. 22. ●…otus in 4. 〈◊〉 . 23 thomas , 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 , darandus , in 4. sent . dist. 18. p. 〈◊〉 enchired th●…oli pars 5. c 1. (b) gr●…tian caus. 11. qu , 3. summa angelica , & rosella . tit. excommunicati●…hostiensis sum. i. 5 : tit. de sentent . excom. ani●…nius 〈◊〉 tit. excom. bochelius , decret. eccles. gal. l. 2. tit. 14. c 2 thes. 3. 14. 2 iohn 10 11 2 tim 3. 1. tit 3. 10. 11. 3 c. 〈◊〉 iohn 10 rom 16. 17 iohn 9. 22. 32. 33 cap. 12. 42. c. 16. 2. numb. 5. 2. 3. 4. c.. 21 14. 15 deut. 23. 1. 2. 3 * see deutr. 17 , 14 , to 21 2 sam 7 , 8 , c. 32. 1 , 3 , 1 kings 17. 9. 2 chron. 9. 8 c. 19. 5. to 11. i. to 13. isay 49. 23. h levit. 24. 10 ●● 27. num. 15. 32. 37. i 3 john 3. 9. 10. 11. k see institu cod. l 1. tit. 7. de episcopali audientia capit caroli et ludovic jup. i. 6. cap. 301. 313. 314. 322. 323 326. 330. lib. 1 throughout . leges wisigoth i. 2. c. 29. 30. l gen. 3. 5. 6. 3. iohn 9. 10. m mat. 20. 20. to 29. luke 22 24 to 31. a acts 20. 29. 31. 2 king 8. 12. eccles. 2. 19. .8 . [u] see philip de morney his mistery of iniquity , carolus molinaeus , commentar : in edict : henrici secundi , &c. contra parvas datas , &c. abbas uspergensis platina & balaeus de vitis pentificum romanorum : grimstosn imperiall history . (x) mr. rutherford . (y) mr. iohn goodwin . master henry burton . mr. saltmarsh . mr. robinson . * lindwade , provinc . l. 5. tit. de paenis f. 226. &c. 10 , de aton const. f. 138. to 142. * math 11. 30 independency examined, vnmasked, refuted, by twelve new particular interrogatories: detecting both the manifold absurdities, inconveniences that must necessarily attend it, to the great disturbance of church, state, the diminution, subversion of the lawfull undoubted power of all christian magistrates, parliaments, synods: and shaking the chiefe pillars, wherwith its patrons would support it. / by william prynne of lincolnes inne, esquier. prynne, william, 1600-1669. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a91196 of text r210043 in the english short title catalog (thomason e257_3). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 49 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 8 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a91196 wing p3985 thomason e257_3 estc r210043 99868877 99868877 159221 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a91196) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 159221) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 44:e257[3]) independency examined, vnmasked, refuted, by twelve new particular interrogatories: detecting both the manifold absurdities, inconveniences that must necessarily attend it, to the great disturbance of church, state, the diminution, subversion of the lawfull undoubted power of all christian magistrates, parliaments, synods: and shaking the chiefe pillars, wherwith its patrons would support it. / by william prynne of lincolnes inne, esquier. prynne, william, 1600-1669. 12 p. printed by f.l. for michael sparke senior, and are to be sold at the blew-bible in green-arbour., london, : 1644. annotation on thomason copy: "sept: 26". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng church polity -early works to 1800. government, resistance to -religious aspects -early works to 1800. independent churches -england -early works to 1800. congregationalism -early works to 1800. great britain -church history -17th century -early works to 1800. a91196 r210043 (thomason e257_3). civilwar no independency examined,: vnmasked, refuted, by twelve new particular interrogatories: detecting both the manifold absurdities, inconvenience prynne, william 1644 8646 36 0 0 0 0 0 42 d the rate of 42 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the d category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-06 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-06 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-07 angela berkley sampled and proofread 2007-07 angela berkley text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion independency examined , vnmasked , refuted , by twelve new particular interrogatories : detecting both the manifold absurdities , inconveniences that must necessarily attend it , to the great ▪ disturbance of church , state , the diminution , subversion of the lawfull undoubted power of all christian magistrates , parliaments , synods : and shaking the chiefe pillars , wherewith its patrons would support it . by william prynne of lincolnes inne , esquier . rom. 12. 16. be of the same minde one towards another : minde not high things , but be contented with meane things : be not wise in your owne conceits . 1 pet. 5. 5. likewise ye younger , submit your selves unto the elder ; yea all of you be subject one to another , and be cloathed with humility : for god resisteth the proud , and giveth grace to the humble . ephes. 4. 14 , 15. henceforth be no more children , tossed to and fro , and carried about with every winde of doctrine , by the slight of men , and cunning craftinesse , whereby they lye in wait to deceive : but speaking the truth in love , grow up into him in all things , which is the head , even christ . london , printed by f. l. for michael sparke senior , and are to bee sold at the blew-bible in green-arbour . 1644. independency examined , unmasked , refuted , by twelve new particular interrogatories . courteous reader , it being expected by some , that i should ( upon second thoughts ) render ) a more particular account of my disapprobation of the independent platforme , then i have lately done in my twelve considerable serious questions touching church-government , wherein i propounded my reasons against the same , but in a generall manner : i shall for thy further satisfaction , and our churches peace ( most necessary and desirable in these dangerous times ) propose by way of interrogation , my more particular exceptions , against this new form of government , with all ingenuity and freedome , without reflection upon any particular persons , or just disgust ( unlesse * truth displease ) to those who are contrary-minded : my only aim being to convince , reconcile , not irritate or disaffect them . the reason why i thus write by way of question , not descision , is , because ( for ought i finde ) the independents have not yet dogmatically , in direct termes ▪ discovered to the world the ful truth of what they assert , but politikely conceale the principall grounds , and more deformed parts of their church-platforme , till a further opportunity , for feare their very discovery at the first should cause their new building to miscarry . whereupon i have rather chosen to pump out their determinations by the ensuing questions to avoid mistakes then to refute them upon ba●e conjectures ; following the apostles seasonable advise , 1 thes. 5. 21. prove all things , hold fast that which is good . 1. whether the independent former of church-government , now so much contended for as the a only church-government of divine institution , which all ( say they ) are bound to submit unto , be anywhere to be found in the old or new testament ? what texts or presidents ( if so essentiall and necessary as it pretended ) doe either directly prescribe or delineate it unto us ? vnder what dark cloud or vaile hath it layn totally obscured , for hundreds yea thousands of years that it never appeared in any church nation , republike in the world from adams dayes till ours ? and whether it be yet so clearly revealed to those who pretend best knowledge of it , as to be positively resolved on amongst them what it is , or what the benefits or mischiefes of it may prove to be ? if not , i shall conclude of this new-government , as our saviour doth in his parabolicall speech concerning new-wine , b no man having drunke old wine streightway desireth new for he saith , the old is better : old presbytery , old unlordly episcopacy , are ( no doubt ) far better for us then new independency . 2. whether some independents do not extraordinarily eclipse , impeach , if not absolutely deny and subvert the lawfull power of civill magistrates , all former parliaments ▪ and the present too , in all matters of church-goverment and potlesiasticall affaires , contrary to their solemne covenant and protestations , ●o defend the ancient priviledges & authority of parliament , and even quite blow ●p all their ecclesiastick authority ( by a new kinde of gun-powder ) at one breath : yea lay most foul , scandalous , uncharitable censures upon the honourable members of this parliament , who deserve far better language from them ▪ witness this most observable dangerous passage , lately dropped from their pens , in a reply of two of the brethren to a. s. ( newly printed ) pag. 81 , 82. thirdly , if the law of the state be the first and most considerable band or tye upon men , to submit unto the power of your combined eldership , ( as you seeme here to imply , in saying , that all men and all churches thereof are bound by law , &c. ) then you must acknowledge , that the root and base of your government is * potestas secularis , secular authority : and then how is it ecclesiastick or spirituall ? a man may as well bring a cleane thing out of an uncleane ( in jobs expression ) as make a spirituall extraction out of a secular root . secondly , it will rest upon you to prove , that the civill state hath a power to forme and fashion the government of the churches of christ . yea , thirdly and lastly , it will be demonstratively proved against you , that you resolve the government of the churches of christ ( in the last resolution of it ) into the humours , wills , and pleasures of the world , yea of the vilest and most unworthy of men . brethren , bona verba quaeso : is this your printed , publike , avowed language of parliaments and the members of it , even to the very face of the most religious , best-deserving parliament that ever sate , which hath been most indulgent to you hitherto ? is this your so much boasted c preaching , writing , fighting for the priviledges and rights of parliaments , which ever since the first planting of religion among us to this present , haue framed and fashioned the government of our churches in all ages , as i can demonstratively manifest by good antiquities ? certainly this language of yours ( with sundry other like passages in this your much-applauded d reply ) cause intelligent men to suspect , that the designe of some of your party is , to hugge embrace the parliament , in shew , just as the yvie doth the tree , thereby to advance your selves ( the onely absolute ecclesiasticall dictators , law-givers ) and your independent churches by degrees above the parliament , and then to over-top , suppresse its power in the end ; or else to ruine it & us for the present , by endeavouring to raise schismes among us , both in parliament , city , country , and our armies , because they now discerne the major part of both houses and the synod inclined against your independent novelties . if this be the accursed project of any of you , ( for i dare not harbour so ill a thought of the greatest part ) the lord will both discover and avenge it to their infamy , in due season : in the meane time , to answere the substance of this most derogatory scandalous passage against parliaments ; i sadly referre it to all rationall mens judgments in the world , whether a parliament of the most eminent , religious , learned , grave , zealous wisest peeres and commons of this realme ( the representative body and grand councell of the kingdom ) assisted with the advice judgment of an assembly of the most orthodoxe pious consciencious ▪ learned ministers in our church , specially selected for this purpose , & of the chiefest of your independent party ▪ be not more fit to form , & fashion the government of the churches of christ , and better able to resolve , determine upon long and serious debate , what church-government is most agreeable to the word of god , and fittest for every particular parish-church throughout this island , for the advancement of gods glory , the peoples salvation , the generall peace and tranquillity of church and state then any one or two independent ministers , with five or sixe of their illiterate , impolitick , and perchance inconsiderate members ( to use no harsher epithite ) assembled in a private conventicle , can doe in two or three houres space ? and whether it bee meeter that these should prescribe a church-government , discipline to themselvs the parliament , synod , and whole kingdome to boot ; or the parliament and assembly to them , who deeme themselves e wiser , holier in their owne vaine conceits , then a thousand parliaments , synods put together ? i doubt not they wil all confesse , that in their congregationall debates about any point of order , discipline government or doctrine , in any of their independent churches , the f major voice or party ought to over-rule and binde the lesse ; and if so , let them yeeld me a solid reason , when they are able , why the ecclesiasticall constitutions , resolutions , orders , edicts of the greatest part of an whole nationall parliament , synod , kingdome , should not much more binde both them and all their independent churches as well as others , as they have ever hitherto done ? and why a combined presbytery , of many , learned ministers , lawyers , gentlemen of best judgment , quality , should not be fitter to decide all church-controversies and affaires of moment within their prefixed limits , by generall laws and canons setled in parliament by common consent , then any independent or popular tribunall of lesser judgement and experience , by their owne arbitrary privat edicts ? else they must deny what the holy ghost informs us , g that two are better then one ; h that in the multitude of counsellours there is safety : or that the pious i kings in the old testament , or a nationall councell , or parliament of their princes , nobles , elders , captaines , and people of best quality , had any lawfull power to reforme or settle all weighty ecclesiasticall church-affaires ; as they ever did by gods owne command and approbation . 3. whether it be not the independents professed tenet , if truely and positively laid downe , that * every minister hath a divine right and liberty , to gather to himselfe an independent church , not of pagans , infidels converted by himselfe alone , but of all the eminentest christians formerly converted , and regenerated by the ministry of others ( especially if rich or potent persons , able to give them large contributions and support ) who shall voluntarily submit themselves to his ministry , and such a church-government as he shall dictate to them : though by our established lawes and customes , ( which our solemne vow and covenant obligeth us to maintaine ) they be parishioners to twenty other godly ministers , by whose ministry they were first regenerated and built up in grace ? that every christian hath a free liberty , by the law of god , to unite himselfe to what independent congregation hee pleaseth ; the husband to one congregation , the wife to another , the children to a third , the servants to a fourth ; nay , every distinct person in a family to a severall church , ( and that not onely without , but against the consents of their owne magistrates , ministers , husbands , parents , masters , who have no jurisdiction ( as some say ) over their consciences herein ; so as one great family shall be divided into members of twenty or thirty severall independent churches , if they please , and those perchance different one from another in their government , opinions , discipline , ceremonies ? that those whose consciences or judgments will not permit them to joine with their independent churches , ( which they * professe to be canonicall ( though guided by no canons ) and of divine assertion , denying all other church-government to be so ) must be wholly excluded ( as heathens and reprobates ) from being members of any church ; or rather ( by the self-same christian liberty as independents plead for ) they may unite themselves into presbyteriall or hierarchicall churches , or what other forme they please to elect : and so we shall have an independent church-government in one part of a family , parish , town , county , kingdom ; a presbyteriall in another ; an episcopall in a third : and by this means if the husband bee a great stickler for episcopacy , and member of a prelaticall church ; the wise a fierce zealot for independency , and a member of such a congregation ; the children or servants stout champions for presbytery , and members of such assemblies , what confusion distraction , implacable contestations , * schismes , tumults this licentiousnesse ( for i cannot stile it freedome of conscience ) would soone inevitably engender in all families , villages , cities , counties , kingdomes , to their utter ruine and desolation , the meanest capacity may with ease divine ; without the help of an oracle . however , it would unavoidably subvert all ancient bounds of parishes , all setled maintenance for the ministry by tithes or otherwise and put all ministers into the condition of friars mendicants , to live ( as independents do ) upon the almes or voluntary contributions of their severall congregations , to whose humours , errours , opinions , they must either readily conforme , or else starve for want of subsistence , in case of their displeasure , being subject to casheering upon every small dislike . 4. whether independents must not necessarily grant from their owne principles , that as every minister hath free liberty to congregate what church hee pleaseth , of men suitable to his own opinions , practise ; so also particular persons have a like liberty to unite themselves together into a church , to elect what minister they thinke best , and prescribe to themselves what government they shall conceive to be most sutable to the scriptures ? and if so , then every man will * heap to himselfe teachers , and erect churches after his own lusts : meer papists ▪ and popishly affected persons , will set up popish churches and priests ; arminians , arminian churches and preachers ; anabaptists , anabaptisticall ministers and assemblies ; arrians , anti-trinitarians , such conventicles and pastors ; libertines , a licentious church and ministry ; yea , every heretick , sectary , or guidy-pated enthusiast , upon pretext of new revelations and discoveries of concealed evangelicall truths , ( though when exactly scanned they may oft times prove old errors or meer diabolicall delusions ) will erect new independent churches of their own ( and that for succession and perpetuity to the perverting of infinit soules ) , uncontroulable , unsuppressible by any ecclesiasticall or civill authority : and thus in few moneths , or yeares space at least , through satans instigations , our owne depraved judgments , ( a verse to unity , piety , purity , but † prone to errour , heresie , schismes , lyes yea lying phantasies ) and through defect of a severe coercive power , in ecclesiasticall synods-parliaments , temporall magistrates , ( who as * some new independent lights informe us , have no coercive power to suppresse these springing heresies , but onely by a non-communion with or refuting them by the word to which they will obstinatly * refuse to hearken , as deeming their own opinions most divine : ) we shall have almost as many severall heresies , sects , churches , as there are families , persons ; ( quot homines tot sententiae , tot ecclesiae : ) yea , if they thus admit every minister , or secular person , to have a divine right , freedom , to set up such an independent church and government as he pleaseth ; then by the self-same reason , they must have a like liberty to elect erect , what civill forme of government they please ; to set up a new independent republike , corporation kingdome , magistracy , in every family , parish , city , county , and to cast off all former civill governours , governments , lawes at pleasure , as well as ecclesiasticall ; there being the selfe-same grounds both of obligation , obedience to , and exemption from the one as other . and if men by their christian liberty shall thus be wholly exempted at their pleasure , as well from all temporall as ecclesiasticall lawes and formes of government , ( as grant me but the one , they must of necessity yeeld the other ; the same texts , reasons obliging us equally in both , and * kings , parliaments having the self-same jurisdiction in and over all † ecclesiasticall matters , which are not positively of divine institution and injunction , as in and over temporall ) what an anarchy and ataxy this will suddenly introduce , to turn all kingdomes , republikes , nations , corporations , churches , families , and the world it self , quite upside down , and ruine them by schisms ; i tremble to imagine . 5. whether the minister alone , or the congregation without the minister , or both conjoined , have power in their independent churches to make and prescribe particular formes of church-covenants , orders , conditions , to all who are or shall be admitted members of their new erected congregations ? if the minister alone , without the people , ( which i suppose they grant , because he is the principall actor in gathering their new churches to himselfe , and the sole person who must first admit them to be members of his flock , upon his own conditions : ) i would then demand ; whether every independent minister arrogates not as much or more power to himselfe , in making , prescribing lawes and covenants to his congregation by his own inherent authority , without consent of king , parliament , synod , or people , as the pope himselfe usurpeth , and farre more power , authority , then independents either do or dare ascribe to christian princes , magistrates , councels , or the parliament ? to all and every of which they absolutely * deny any power of making or prescribing ecclesiasticall lawes , covenants , canons , to binde them , or their independent churches or any members of them ; yea any sufficient coercive power to restrain or punish hereticks , schismaticks , or broachers of heterodox novell opinions , to disturb the churches or republikes tranquillity . if the people alone without the minister , or both conjoyned , then you invest every independent conventicle , consisting of never so few inconsiderable ignorant members , with a greater legislative power , and ecclesiasticall authority , then you allow to whole nationall parliaments , councels , consisting of most eminent , learned , pious persons of all sorts ; who by your new doctrine have no jurisdiction at all to make or enjoyne any forme of church-government , covenant , ecclesiasticall lawes or canons , to any particular churches : as if the eminentest ministers and members of churches , by becomming members of parliaments or councels , did thereby forfeit and lose the right or exercise of that power , in those great representative bodies of the whole kingdome and church of england , which you readily allow both them and others in every private church or conventicle : a most strange and senselesse whimsie . 6. whether it be lawfull or justifiable by the word of god , for any independent minister of england , contrary to the lawes of the realme and inhibitions of parliament , of his owne bare authority to congregate and erect an independent congregation ; or to prescribe a particular forme of church-government , together with a church-covenant ( in nature of a solemne oath ) to which euery particular member of his new congregation must subscribe before admission into his church ? whether there bee any the least precept , president in scripture , or antiquity to warrant such an irregular usurped authority and power among christians ; which the verie apostles themselves never claimed ? whether all the particular churches in any nation , kingdome , city , republike professing the same orthodox faith , though divided ( for more conveniency ) into severall congregations , be not all members of , and constitute but * one intire nationall church , or common christian society , as they did at first , before thus multiplied , augmented ? ( even as all the particular houses , parishes , societies in london are members of and make but one city and corporation ; all the families , parishes , townes , counties in england , but one kingdome or republike ; and as all particular and nationall churches in the world , make up but one entire catholike militant church : ) whence both in scripture phrase , and common speech in all authors . languages whatsoever , they are commonly called by the name of one church , in the singular number ; as , the church of england , france , scotland , ireland ; the eastern , westerne , greeke , latine church ; the church of the jewes , gentiles , &c. and if so , then let our independents shew me , if they can , the least colour of scripture or reason , why the parliament and assembly ( chosen to assist them by publike consent ) representing our whole church , state , may not as lawfully set up and prescribe a new church-government , discipline , lawes and canons , agreeable to and not discrepant from gods word , to binde all particular churches and persons within our realme , as well as pull downe and demolish the old , or make temporall lawes and ordinances to binde all persons , societies , members of the realm , ( and independents too as well as others ) both to obedience and punishment ; or else for ever disclaim their new-minted government , their declamations , arguments against the power of nationall synods parliaments in ecclesiastical matters and church-government , as most ridiculous and absurd . 7. whether the members of every independent church , may at their owne free liberty , when ever they please , desert their owne particular church , and become members of other independent or presbyteriall congregations , without the licence or dispensation of their owne church or minister first obtained ? if yea , then why oblige they them to the contrary by particular church-covenants ; or refuse to admit any members of one independent church into another , without such consent or licence first obtained ; or at least repute it a grand injury in that church or minister who admits them ? ( especially if they be wealthy members , for some say poore ones , and persons of meaner condition , are not much regarded by independents , no more then poore or contemptible offices . ) if nay , then by what law or conscience doe , or can they congregate their independent churches out of twenty or thirty severall parishes and congregations , not onely without any authority of the state , or licence of the ministers or whole churches in those parishes ; but even against their expresse wills and desires ; yet thinke they doe god good service ; these ministers , parishes , no injustice by it , though it be directly contrary to their owne principles , and these common dictates of god and nature ; quod tibi non vis fieri alteri ne feceris : and , * all things whatsoever ye would that men should doe unto you , doe yee even so unto them , for this is the law and the prophets ? 8. whether independents peremptory refusall , to admit any to be member , of their churches , to receive the sacrament of the lords supper , or to have their children baptized among them , unlesse they will first subscribe to such particular church-covenants ; orders as they shall prescribe ; and their rigid excommunication , rejection of such members who have taken their covenants , in case they subscribe not to all their further dictates and opinions , without any re-admission , till they shall promise an universall conformity in opinion and practice to whatever is required by their independent minister or congregations ; be not an usurpation of as great yea greater coercive power over the consciences , persons of christians , as presbyterians , parliaments claime , or as the bishops themselves in the height of their pride and tyranny ( as bishops ) ever challenged or usurped ? notwithstanding christian liberty of conscience , in opinions , practice , ( which they pretend to leave arbitrary to every mans free election ) be the principall pillar to support , the sweetest inescating bait to entice men to embrace their independency ? if they say , they imprison enforce no mans person or conscience , but leave all persons , consciences free : i answer , that the excluding men from their church-assemblies , sacraments , christian communion , yea their very innocent infants from baptisme itselfe in their independent churches , unles they will conforme to their arbitrary church-covenants , dictates , prescriptions ( warranted by no scripture or divine examples ) is a farre greater * greivance , violence , coertion to the persons , conscience of christians , then all imprisonment , racks and corporall tortures in the world : yea an unjust exclusion of them from that undoubted right to the ordinances and church of christ wherewith god himselfe hath invested them . 9. whether independents refusall to admit such christians , who are not notoriously scandalous in their lives , nor grossely ignorant in the principles of religion , to the sacrament of the lords supper , when they earnestly desire to receive it , or professe a cordiall present remorse of all their former sinfull courses , with an unfained resolution to live a pious holy life for the future , onely upon this suspicion or apprehension , that they are but carnall men , not truly regenerated or sanctified by gods spirit , ( though they cannot certainly judge of their present spirituall conditions , † infallibly known to god alone ) be not a very uncharitable , arrogant , yea unchristian practice , contrary to our saviours owne immediate example , who at the first institution of this sacrament admitted * judas to his last supper as well as his fellow-disciples , though he certainly knew him to be both a traitor and devill ; opposite to the injunction of † paul himselfe , who though he disswades unworthy receivers from eating and drinking the lords supper without due preparation and examination , for feare of eating and drinking damnation or judgment to , and drawing downe temporall diseases on themselves ; yet he simply excludes none from receiving it , at their owne perils , who are willing , or desirous to participate of it , nor gives any authority to ministers absolutely to seclude them from it , unlesse excommunicated and notoriously scandalous . and whether their present deniall to administer the sacrament in their churches to those who are truely religious , earnestly longing even frequently to receive it for their spirituall comfort , according to christs own institution , only for fear lest some unregenerate persons should communicate with them , and depriving their whole congregations of this most comfortable necessary ordinance for sundry months , nay yeares , ( as some have done ) upon this groundlesse , unwarrantable reason● , refuted by christs owne example , who administred the sacrament to the other disciples though there were a judas amongst them ; by the practice , doctrine of paul himself 1 cor. 11. 17. to 34. and the usage of all christian churches throughout the vniverse , be not an over-rigid , uncharitable , unjust ( that i say not impious ) action , injurious to christ himself , to the soules and spirituall estates of those good christians secluded from the sacrament , and a more transcendent strain of tyrannicall usurpation over the soules , the consciences of christians , and ordinances of god himself , than ever our most domineering lordly prelates exercised , or any presbyterians have hitherto pretended to lay claim unto ? if this proceed not from a domineering spirit , and be not an excessive * lording of it over the lords inheritance , yea over christ himself in this his ordinance , i professe i am much mistaken : yea , i feare this spirituall pride and excessive uncharitablenesse of some , who take upon them by their owne inherent power to erect new congregations , and set up new formes of church-government , discipline , &c. in christian states , churches , already planted , without , yea against their parliaments , or † christian magistrates authority , when as the very apostles did never by their owne ordinary jurisdiction , as private ministers , but onely by their extraordinary calling , as apostles ; or in and by their canonicall epistles , dictated by gods spirit prescribe any matters of church-government , discipline , rites , or order to the particular churches first gathered and planted by themselves alone , as is evident by acts 7 , 1. to 8. c. 14. 22 , 23. tit. 1. 5. 1 cor. c. 7. & 11. & 12. & 14. c. 16. 1. 2. jam. 2. 2. 3. c. 5. 13. 14. 15. 16. except in and by a publike synod , acts 15. ) and thus debarre others from the sacrament , as unmeet receivers , upon such unwarrantable grounds , do make themselves far more uncapable , unmeet to receive it , than those they thus exclude . 10. whether that noted text of matth. 18. 15 , 16 , 17. if thy brother shall trespasse against thee , goe tell him his fault between thee and him alone ; if he will heare thee , then thou hast gained thy brother : but if he will not heare , then take with thee one or two more , that in the mouth of one or two witnesses every thing may be established . and if he shall neglect to heare them , tell it to the chvrch ; but if he neglect to heare the chvrch , let him be to thee as an heathen man and a publican ; be meant of any independent or ecclesiasticall consistorie , excommunication , or church-censures properly so called ? or not rather of the iewish synedrium , councell , or civill court of justice , and of a civill excommunication , like to an outlawry at the common law , as * mr selden with others more t●uely interp●t●t ? since our saviour speaks there , 1. of a private trespasse done to a private person , of which no church , classes , or ecclesiasticall consistorie , hath proper conusance ; not of a publike scandal to the congregation , or any scandalous crime or vice as is evident by the very first words , and by luk. 17. 3 , 4. compared with ●●n ▪ 50. 17. 1 king 8. 31. 2. of a demand of private satisfaction , first personally , next in presence of witnesse , before any complaint to the church or councell . 3. of no censure or judgment passed , but barely of an admonition given by the church to the partie offending ; which if neglected and not heard , then 4. not the church , councell , and all other persons , but onely the partie offended was to repute ( but not excommunicate out of the church or congregation ) him as an heathen , and a publicane , ( which were both odious to the iewes , who had no civill conversation with them , and were no members of the iewish church except proselites ) as the expresse words , let him be to thee ( not any others ) as an heathen and a pulican , ( that , is converse no more with him , but avoid his company , 2 thes. 3. 14. ) resolve , which reasons , compared with matth. 5. 22 , 25. c. 10. 17. c. 12. 14. c. 22. 15. c. 27. 1 , 7. acts 18. 12 , 13 , 14 , 15 , 16. c. 16. 20 , 21. c. 17. 6. c. 23. 1. 14 , 15. c. 24. 1. to 7. c. 25. & 26. infallibly evidence , the church or assembly in this text to be meant onely of the temporall court , councell , or sanhedrin of the iewes , not of any ecclesiasticall or church-iudicatory , or excommunication , as papists anciently , with some others now determine . 11. whether the apostles and members of the first evangelicall synode , we read of acts 15. sate and voted in it as apostles onely , indued with a spirit of infallibilitie ( which was a peculiar priviledge to them alone , ) or else in their ordinary capacity , as elders and chief members of it ? if as apostles only , and in that extraordinary capacitie , as * independents assert : then 1. paul and barnabas being apostles as well as they , might have decided that controversie at antioch , without sending to jerusalem to determine it : 2. the church at antioch would have sent to none but the apostles to resolve their doubts , and not to the elders at jerusalem as well as to the apostles , as they did vers. 2. thirdly , paul and barnabas would have put the question to the apostles onely , not to the elders and church as well as to them , which they did vers. 4 , 5 , 6. fourthly , the apostles would not have called a synod of all the apostles elders and brethren at jerusalem to consider of or consult about this thing vers. 6. but have determined it presently by their infallible spirit without consultation , or a synods assistance . fifthly , peter and james would not have argued the case so largely , and proved it by arguments and scriptures as they did , one after another , vers. 17 to 23. but have peremptorily resolved it without dispute , had they sate and determined it by their extraordinarie infallible power . sixtly , the finall resolution , letters , and canons of this synod had run onely in the apostles names , had they proceeded onely by their apostolicall infallible authoritie , and not in the names of the elders and brethren too , ( coupled together with theirs both in the letters and canons , vers. 21 , 22 , 23 , 24 , 27 , 28. c. 16. 4. c. 21. 18. 25. ) who were not all endued with the self-same infallibility and power as the apostles were , for ought can be proved ; therfore their assembling in this councell , not in their extraordinary capacity as apostles only , but as elders , ministers ; and the elders , brethrens sitting together in councel with them , upon this controversie and occasion , is an undeniable scripture-authority for the lawfulnesse , use of parliaments , councels , synods under the gospel , upon all like necessarie occasions ; and for their power to determine controversies of religion , to make canons in things necessary for the churches peace and government , ( there being no one place in scripture against it , but many texts in the old testament to backe it , elsewhere quoted ) mauger all evasions , exceptions to elude it . 12. whether the temporall magistrate , parliament , and civill state , have not a lawfull coercive power , though * not to restraine the preaching of the gospel and truth of god , yet to suppresse , restraine , imprison , confine , banish the broachers of any heresies , schismes , erronious seditious doctrines , enthusiasmes , or setters up of new formes of ecclesiasticall government without lawfull authoritie , to the endangering of the peoples soules , or disturbance of the churches , kingdomes peace , as well as ministers and particular churches christians , power to * reprove , refute , avoid , excommunicate or anathematize them , notwithstanding † some independents new-minted objections against it : and that by virtue of deut. 13. 1. to 12. lev. 24. 11. to 17. num. 26. throughout , josh. 7. 25. 26. c. 22. 11. to 34. psal. 101. 4 5 , 8. 4 , 5 , 8. 1 king. 18. 40. 2 king. 10. 21 , to 29. c. 23. 5. 20. 2 chro. 34. 4. 5. rom. 13. 1. to 6. 1 pet. 2. 14. gal. 5. 12. rev. 2. 20. c. 19. 20. 21. cap. 17. 16. and the ten hornes ( interpreted to be ten kings v. 12. ) shall hate the whore ( with all her panders ) and shall make her desolate and naked , and shall eat her flesh , and shall burne her with fire : for god hath put it into their hearts to fvlfill his will , ezra 7. 26. and whosoever will not doe the law of thy god , let judgment be executed speedily upon him , whether it be unto death , or unto banishment , or to confiscation of goods , or to imprisonment , with sundry * other texts . hence * christian princes , magistrates , parliaments , in all ages and churches in the world have made severe temporall lawes , edicts against , and inflicted corporall punishment , banishment , confiscation of goods , ( and in some cases death it selfe ) upon hereticks , schismaticks , disturbers of the churches peace with erronious or seditious doctrines : which lawfull power of theirs hath ever bin asserted by the most † orthodox churches , writers in all ages , and never oppugned by any but anabaptists , who deny all civill magistrates , or such licencious hereticks , schismaticks , or false teachers , who would spread their pestilent errours , and seditious novell positions without restraint ; or durst never suffer martyrdome for , or seale them with the losse of their liberties , lives , estates , which godly orthodox martyrs and christians have cheerfully undergone , under pagan , hereticall , and popish kings , magistrates . and if we either deny , abolish , eclipse , diminish , or suspend this necessary coercive power ( the principall meanes under god to suppresse , extirpate all growing errours , schismes , which disturbe the churches trantranquilitie , seduce unstable soules ) our church and realmes will be soone overgrowne with dangerous errours , heresies , schismes , and brought to speedy desolation ; the contemptible sword of excommunication , or non-communion , and the bare preaching of gods word to obstinate hereticks , papists , schismaticks , ( who will * contemn the word , and excommunicate all other churches dissenting from them , as hereticall , schismaticall , as fast as they excommunicate or discommon them , and so propagate , perpetuate their heresies , schismes , without redresse ) being unable to suppresse such peremptory offendors , without the temporall magistrates sword of justice added to them ; who having a lawfull jurisdiction derived to them in the gospel , * to punish and suppresse all evill doers , without distinction , have doubtlesse an unquestionable authority to punish obstinate heretickes , schismaticks , false teachers , with temporall censures , who are the greatest malefactors , sinning against the word and truth of god , disturbing the peace of church , state , seducing and destroying peoples soules ; a far greater crime then to murder their bodies , or rob them of their estates . in briefe , all protestant churches whatsoever , in their publike * confessions acknowledge , that the care of preserving , propagating true religion ; of suppressing , extirpating heresies , errours , schismes , superstition , idolatry , and the fautors of them , by temporall punishments and censures of all sorts , doth principally belong to christian magistrates , kings , princes : ( which duty they can in no sort execute , if now ( with the anabaptists ) ou deny them this most just coercive power : ) that all lawfull civill magistrates and powers whatsoever , though instituted by men , are even in the new testament expresly resolved , to be the * ordinances of god , and all their just commands , lawes , edicts , ( not repugnant to gods word ) readily to be obeyed and submitted to , even for conscience , and for the lords sake , under paine of sinne and condemnation : therefore what ever our pious parliament , the supreme power , by advice of the assembly , after much fasting , prayer , disputes , advice , and serious consultation , shall order , decree touching church-government or discipline , as most consonant and not repugnant to gods word , ought in point of conscience to be submitted to by independents and all others , as to a government , discipline , ordinance approved of by god ; and if any heretickes , false teachers , schismaticks obstinately refuse conformity after due admonition , and all good means used to reclaim them the poets divinity and policy must then take place , as well in eclcesiasticall as civill and naturall maladies : * cuncta prius tentanda , sed immedicabile vulnus ense rescidendum est , ne pars syncera trahatur . deut. 12. 8. ye shall not doe after the things that we doe here this day , every man whatsoever is right in his owne eyes . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a91196e-250 * gal. 4. 16. a reply of two of the brethren to a. s. p. 66. b luk. ● . 37. * i pray informe me why an whole parliament and assembly of godly christians and divines , wherein are many of your owne chiefe independent ministers , members , should be more secular , unclean , filthy , or unable to make a spirituall extraction of church-government , then one of your independent churches or conventicles ? c a reply to a. s. p. 85. d page 42. to 65. e pro. 2●●●6 cap. 30. 1● . ●●● 65. 5. 〈◊〉 . 18. 10. to 16. f 1 chron. 13. 4 , 5. act. 15. 22 , 23 &c. g eccles. 4. 9 , 10 , 11 : h pro. 11. 14 i 1 chro. 13 3 , 4 , 5. &c. 28. 〈◊〉 29. 2 chro. ● . 5 & 6. & 7. c. 23 2 , 3. c. 30. 10. to 27. c. 31 ● . ●isth . 9 , 20. 〈◊〉 31. ezra 3. 1. c. 10. 1. &c , ●eh . 8. 1 , &c. * they should ●owell to define , 1. of how many members , every independent congregation should consist ? 2. within what precincts they should live ? 3. what set stipends they shall allow them , and how raised when ascertained ? 4. when and where their churches should assemble ? 5. who shall prescribe extraordinary 〈◊〉 of fasting or thansgiving to them upon just occasions ? 6. who shall rectifie their church-covenants , discipline , censures , government , if erronious or unjust ? 7. shew us a sufficient satisfactory commission from gods word for all they doe or desire , before they gather any churches . * reply of two of the brethren 64 , 65 , 66 , &c. * 1 cor. 1. 11. 12. 13. cap. 3. 3 , 4. mat. 12. 51. 52. 53. * 2 tim. 4. 3 ; 4 a proplaesse which concerns our present times . † gal. 5 , 20 , 21. c. 2. 11 , 12 , 14. act. 15. 39. ● thes. 2. 11. rom. 1. 29. 31 c. 16. 17. 1 tim 6. 5 , 6. tit. 3 9. * reply of two of the brethren pag. 52. ●0 61. * 2 tim 4 6. * see 1 chro. 13. 1 to 7. 2 chro. 5. & 6 , & 7. c. 15. 8. to 16 c. 30. 1 to 7. c. 31. 1. c. 34. 31 , 32 , 33 , 34. ezra 7. 26. cap. 10. 1 to 7. esth. 9. 20. to 32. † 25. h. 8 c. 19 21. 37. h. 8. c. 17 , 26. h. 8. c. 1 27. h. 8. c. 16. 28. h. 8. c. 10. 1. e. 6. c. 2. 1. eliz. 6. c. 1 , 2. 8. eliz. c. 1. 31. h. 8. c. 10 , 14. 32. h. 8. c. 22 , 24 , 28. 33. h. 8. c. 29 , 34. & 35. h. 8. c. 17. 19. 35. h. 8. c. 1. 3. * reply of two of the brethren p. 52. to 69. * as one and the same city , kingdom , nation , encreased with new houses , parishes , streets , territories , and generations of people , continue still but one and the self-same city , kingdom , nation : so the first christian church planted in any city , kingdome , nation , when spread over all that city , kingdome , nation , and distributed into severall particular congregations , continues but one and the self-same generall church of which all particular churches are members , and not independent absolute in themselves , divided from , or vnsubjected to the intire common nationall church . 1 cor. 12. 12 , to 22. ep●● . 2. 19 , 20 , 21. c. 1. 3 , to 17. acts 2. 47. * matth 7. 12. 〈◊〉 c. 6. 31. * psal. 34. 1. to 11. psal. 120. 3 psal. 42. 1 , 2. psal. 27 : 4. † 2 chro. 6. 30. ier 17. 19. 20. act. 1. 24 * m●●● . 26. 20 to 32. mark 14. 10 , &c. luke 22. 3. to 24. iohn 6. 70 , 71. † 1 cor. 11. 17. to 34. * 1 pet. 5. 3. † moses the chief temporal magistrate under the law , together with david , solomon , and other godly kings , did by gods owne direction , and approbation , direct , order , and settle all particulars in and about the altar , tabernacle , arke , temple , consecrating both them and the priests too , appointing all officers about them , together with the courses of the priests , singers ; & that by cōmon advice of the princes , captains , elders of the people , & not by the votes or directions of the priests , who had no ruling voice herein : which authority being no where revoked nor denied christian princes , magistrates , parliaments , under the gospel , they no doubt enjoy it still . and therefore these ministers who thus erect new churches usurp on their authority . * de anno civili , &c pr●satio p. 6. ● &c 18. p 83 , 84 and d jure natura & gent●um l. 4. c. 8. * reply to a. s. p 70 , 71. * mat. 10. 17 , 18 mar. 9. 10 , 13 acts 4. 16. to 23. c. 5. 17. to the end . * 1 tim. 1. 19 , 20. 2 cor. 6. 14. to 18. rom. 16. 17. tit. 3. 10 , 11. 2 ioh. 10 , 11. † reply of two of the brethren p. 51. to 63. * matt. 10. 17 , 18 , 21. c. 26. 47 , to 74. c. 27. 1 , to 60. acts 4. 1 , to 24 c. 5 17 , to 40. c. 6. 12 , 13. c. 9. 1 , 2 , 3. c. 11. 2 , 3 , 4. c. 16. 20 , to 40. c. 18. 12. &c. c. 23 , & 24 & 25 , & 26 , & 27. rightly understood . * iustinian . codic . l. 1. tit. 8. 10. and our lawes against iesuits , priests and recusants . † see the harmony of confessions sect. 19. * psal. 58. 4 , 5. ier. 30. 19. c. 〈◊〉 . 33. isa 30. ● , 10. 2 tim. 4 ▪ 3 , 1. * rom. 13. 1 , 〈◊〉 7. 1 pet. 2. 13 , 14 , 15. tit. 3. 1. * see harmony of confessions sect. 19. * rom. 13. 1 , to 8. 1 pet. 2. 13 , 14 , 15. tit. ● , 1 , 10 , 11. ● pet. 2. 10 , 11 iude 8 , 9 * ovid me 〈…〉 reasons shewing that there is no need of such a reformation of the publique 1. doctrine. 2. worship. 3. rites & ceremonies. 4. church-government. 5. discipline. as it is pretended by reasons offered to the serious consideration of this present parliament, by divers ministers of sundry counties in england. by h.s. d.d. chaplain to his majestie in ordinary. h. s. (henry savage), 1604?-1672. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a94222 of text r202300 in the english short title catalog (thomason e1043_7). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 64 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 17 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a94222 wing s762 thomason e1043_7 estc r202300 99862636 99862636 168956 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a94222) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 168956) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 154:e1043[7]) reasons shewing that there is no need of such a reformation of the publique 1. doctrine. 2. worship. 3. rites & ceremonies. 4. church-government. 5. discipline. as it is pretended by reasons offered to the serious consideration of this present parliament, by divers ministers of sundry counties in england. by h.s. d.d. chaplain to his majestie in ordinary. h. s. (henry savage), 1604?-1672. [8], 24 p. printed for humphrey robinson at the three pigeons in st. pauls church-yard, london : 1660. h.s. = henry savage. the words "1. doctrine. 2 worship." are enclosed in brackets on title page; "3. rites .. discipline." are bracketed together in a parallel column. annotation on thomason copy: "sept. 5.". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng church of england -doctrines -apologetic works -early works to 1800. church polity -early works to 1800. a94222 r202300 (thomason e1043_7). civilwar no reasons shewing that there is no need of such a reformation of the publique 1. doctrine. 2. worship. 3. rites & ceremonies. 4. church-govern h. s 1660 11086 14 50 0 0 0 0 58 d the rate of 58 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the d category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-12 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-12 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-01 john pas sampled and proofread 2008-01 john pas text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion reasons shewing that there is no need of such a reformation of the publique 1. doctrine . 2. worship . 3. rites & ceremonies . 4. church-government . 5. discipline . as is pretended by reasons offered to the serious consideration of this present parliament , by divers ministers of sundry counties in england : by h. s. d. d. chaplain to his majestie in ordinary . phil. 4. 5. let your moderation be known unto all men . the lord is at hand . london , printed for humphrey robinson at the three pigeons in st. pauls church-yard , 1660. c. l. arca palaestinis latuit velut exul in oris : davidis ad reditum , quam rediisse juvat . hac bene consultâ ; sub quovis , arma movere , relligio , obtentu relligionis , erit . hinc etenim infandae caedes , & facta tyranni effera , praeconum scandala magna fluunt . undique doctrinam hanc , tonuerunt rostra , rebellem , clavum , schismatici dum tenuere , ratis . remigat hàc bradshaw , referens sua tincta , cruore , brachia , divorum , vix februanda : proin alter ut infaelix ; pariter censendus uterque , quòd sua , maturo tempore , fata tulit . ergo paeniteat facti , quicunque superstes jam sis , ac hujus criminis actor eras : sic parcas venerere tuas ; monuere quòd , etsi damnatum gyaris , te ; monuere tamen . in their epistle to the right honovrable the lords and commons assembled in parliament . they say that its farre from their thoughts to oppose or disparage orthodox doctrine , a well composed liturgy , rites for decency and order , ordination of ministers , apostolical episcopacy , or due rules of discipline . all this i like well : and that they are for all these , i like much better ; especially being accompanied with truth , without violation of liberty allowed by christ . but this mistaken liberty hath served as an engine to pull downe doctrine , liturgy rites , orders . episcopacy , discipline and all : nothing being set up in the room thereof unlesse an empusa , that must have but one leg to stand upon , to w●t , mens owne imaginations and single apprehensions of things . the thing mainly toucht in the said epistle is episcopacy , whereof they make representation not of the pretended illegality onely , but of the ill effects too ; as namely , how the bishops in all ages since the conquest have sharply persecuted all that threw off popery , where kings have not curbed the violence of them . an argument of that nature as strong for episcopacy as could have been produced , if we consider what good those men would have done in the church , had they lived under the reformation , by reflexion ▪ had upon st. paul himselfe , who having been before his conversion a grievous persecutor , became after it a zealous promoter of the gospel . and indeed 't is to b● confessed that the confusions that have ensued upon that episcopall rigour have rendred the objects thereof , ( but to the great scandall of themselves and the gospel ) guilty of rebellion against kings , a thing often practiced , but never professed by any but the disciples of junius brutus . and of this spirit were the furious zealots in the time of edw. 6. mentioned in the epistle , which they pretend to have been fomented and not moderated , but countenanced by that pious king : who was so far from it , that he not onely caused one book of common-prayer to be composed and enjoyned instead of the severall formes secundum usum sarum , &c. in practice before , whence men took occasion to use what formes they pleased ; but also prohibited by proclamation all preaching whatsoever , till he and his parliament had taken order for the settlement of religion ; and setting of bounds to all , but especially to the anabaptistical spirits , out of which divine circle they were not to pass in their praedications . and what i have spoken in defence of former popish bishops , the same may be said of those in queen maries dayes . lastly , it 's pretended that the noble king james was perswaded by the bishops , by whom he was continually plyed , to leave the liturgy unreformed , to compell all to subscribe to the same , and to enforce the observation of canons that were illegall : whereby some were suspended , others under canonical admonition , the next door to deprivation ; and all this clean contrary to that influence which the conference at hampton-court would have had upon him . but whosoever looks upon the proclamation prefixed to the book of common prayer , shall finde it de facto to be nothing so : and whosoever considers the deep learning and profound judgement of that renowned prince , will never believe it to be so ; he being able to cope with any prince or prelate in the world in matters of that nature . and here one thing is not to be omitted before i put a period to my observations upon the epistle ; that they alleadge the liturgy to have remained uureformed in greatest part , or most materiall points ; notwithstanding much complained of , in the conference at hampton ▪ court . whence i observe that somethings , even at their owne instance , were added or amended in the liturgy , and with those additions or emendations was it warranted by the proclamation of king james . if so , why do they , of all men , except against it , as a thing not established by law ? i intend not to contend with the punctilles of law ; wherein the more a man flutters , the worse he may be entangled : onely thus much i say , that conscience will not absolve any man who hath subscribed to the observation of the same , and of the other things in question , so long as they are either necessary or adiaphora , which we are in our ensuing work to defend . reasons shewing that there is no necessity of such a reformation of the publique . i. doctrine . concerning this ; the main thing insisted upon , is the articles , with the kings declaration praefixed to them : wherein it is commanded not to affix any other sense to the articles besides the literal ; & this , say they , tyes us up from all liberty of interpreting any article , whereof they give us several instances , and that all this was done by the procurement of the then bishops . but surely if this be any matter of record , the k. had some body else to pen it : and if it be reasonable , the bishops need not be ashamed of being the authors of it . but so reasonable it is , that there 's nothing in it that may enforce those consequences that they would infer upon it : inasmuch as the affixing of no other sense besides the literall , does not , i hope , take away the liberty of explaining the articles , or shewing what is , and what is not their literall sense . the next exception is at the homilies wherein it is falsely said , say they , that plurality of wives was permitted to the fathers , because they every one hoped and begged that christ might come of their stock and kindred ; as if , say they , all did not know out of what tribe christ was to issue ( the homily is mistaken , though the page be right . ) whereunto i answer , that plurality of wives began before that prophecy , that christ should come of the tribe of judah : and therefore before this time all did not know so much ; nor could every man fish so much afterwards out of so mysterious a prophecy . the third is , that the homilies call the apocrypha the teaching of the holy ghost . answ. 1. that the book of homilies speaks according to the common language of those times ; which so spake of them , because they were reckoned in the canon ( not of faith ) but of manners . 2. they themselves confesse the things there quoted to be true in a charitable construction ; & omnis veritas à spiritu sancto est . the 4th . exception is , that the articles contain no discovery of popish doctrines , being the first tenets of arminius , &c. answ. that the doctrine of arminius is not the doctrine of popery : the articles condemn both ; and therefore are no breasts , at which popery and arminianisme may be suckt in , as is pretended . the 5th . exception is , that all things necessary to salvation are not comprised in the articles . whereunto i answer , that the same exception may lye against the confessions of any reformed church ; but these that are , suffice to shew their harmony with those of other churches : and what is wanting in the articles , is made out in the rest of the catechisme . hereunto may be added their exception of not enumerating the books of the new testament , as well as those of the old . answ. that the canonicall books of the old testament are enumerated to distinguish them from the apocryphal : but in the n. t. ( there being no apocryphals ) there needed no enumeration . and if popery may be grounded upon the articles ( as is pretended ) they need not fear any tacite rejection of st. james his epistle , or calling of it stamineam epistolam , as luther does , nor yet of the 2d ▪ of peter , in as much as the compilers of the articles are adversaries to those that are {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} 2 ep. 2. 10. nor of the revelation neither , in as much as the seven angels of the 7. churches , are taken to be a cleer proof of episcopacy . the 6th . exception is , that the articles are not proved by places of scripture . answ. they are known to be sufficiently proved by others , and therefore they might have done so too : bnt had they done it ; cavils would not have been wanting against the proofs themselves , where none could be found against the things . ii. for worship . the maine exception is , that it doth not appear by any enrollment or otherwise that this is the book of common prayer . answ. that if this be not the book ; i pray produce another . if you do , it will be one , which in your own judgement , will be lesse orthodox : but it seems , by what follows , that you are displeased with any alterations though for the better . your designe appears to be not a reducing , so much as a new moulding of the whole ; a thing which i must confess i like not of , lest we should seem thereby rather to set up a new religion , then reform the old : between reformation , and innovation , there 's a great deal of odds . of alterations , &c. in the present book of common-prayer from that established in 5. 6. edw. 6. & 1 eliz. 1. exception is against saints dayes put into the kalender ; which though in black letters there ; yet in dr. cosens kalender and the scotish liturgie , some of them are in red . answ. for our kalender or the scotish , what ever characters the dayes are put in , they are not enacted to be kept holy . and as for dr. cosens his kalender ; that 's intended for private offices , not for publique devotion . what ever he hath done concerning the name of jesus ; i cannot think that so great an assertor of the protestant religion ( as he hath proved himself to be ) should intend popery , or superstition . the thing it selfe infers it not ; there being no name jesvs in writing tendered to be adored ; which was the onely thing that calvin complains the sorbonick sophisters to have been guilty of . 2. exception is , that upon certain holidayes some chapters of apocryphal scripture are appointed to be read , the canonical being left out there . answ. whether it was done to please those that hold the dayes to be apocryphal , i cannot tell ? if so , they need not be displeased at it . however , those canonicall lessons are not left out of the rubrick for daily reading . 3d exception is , that the book established 5. 6. ed. 6. nameth onely the surplice to be worn : but the book of canons enjoyneth other ornaments . answ. that nothing , but the surplice , could be universally enjoyned ; inasmuch as all priests were capable of that : but want of degrees made many incapable of others . 4th . exception is against even usefull prayers put into the liturgy , which happily might be done upon the conference at hampton-court , though the inquiry to me is needless as long as i see the kings proclamation to it . 5th . exception is , that in the prayer for the queen , &c. the word elect is left out , perhaps because it distasted the favourers of the popish arminianisme . answ. that neither the arminians nor papists are against the word elect , and that in a more comprehensive sense then ours . 't is not they therefore , that would exclude the royall stem out of the number of gods elect , but such as fought for the setting up of christs kingdome , and of his elect , against such reprobates as they esteemed the king and all his family to be . 6. exception is against the continuance of the old translation of the psalms , which is not so correct as the new . answ. that it proves the antiquity of the translation , no wilfull corruption of the same ; neither doth it contain any thing contrary to the analogy of faith . 7. exception is , that notwithstanding the corruption of translations , the preface of the book runs thus : that nothing is enjoyned to be read : but that which is the pure word of god , or that which is evidently grounded thereupon ; which is false , and a meer cheat put upon the people of god . answ. that the preface of the book runs , that nothing be enjoyned to be read but that which is the pure word of god , or that which is evidently grounded thereupon , in opposition to uncertain stories , legends , and such like vain and superstitious things , neither in canone fidei , nor morum ; which have no ground in the word of god ; yet had been , before that time commonly read . and albeit some things now to be read are not , evidently to all , grounded upon the word of god ; it follows not that the people of god are cheated thereby ; for then st. paul had cheated the thessalonians , acts 17. 11. to whom , before search made , his doctrine did not appear to be the word of god . nay then most sermons are cheats ; in as much as there be very few , wherein every thing delivered is clearly made out to be grounded upon the word of god . the same may be said of prayers before and after them , wherein horrible absurdities and heterodoxies have fallen from the mouths of preachers . but one place is alleadged out of the epistle for 16. sundry after trinity , which hath no ground in the word of god , in as much as it implies , that the father must be father of himself . answ. that it does not necessarily follow : for in that he is said to be the father of all that is called father in heaven and earth : among this , all ; he is to be excepted who is this father . as when it is said , all things are put under him , it is manifest that he is excepted that hath put all things under him , 1 cor. 15. further observations . 1. in the kalender . the first exception , besides what hath beene answered before , is that 188. chapters of the old testament are left out : and of the apocrypha which contains 173. there are read 121. chapters by the kalender of 5. 6. of edward 6. as well as by that of later date . the answer hereunto is set down in the order how the rest of the holy scripture ( besides the psalter ) is appointed to be read ; which begins thus : the old testament is appointed for the first lesson at morning and evening prayer , and shall be read through every year once , except certain books and chapters , which be least edifying , and might be spared , and therefore are left unread . 2. that of st. hierome ( caveat omnia apocrypha ) relates to matters of faith , not of manners : besides that the ordering of the apocryphall chapters to be read , is intended chiefly for the benefit of the clergy ( as appears by the preface ) who having not alwayes a competent number to joyn with them at church , are enjoyned neverthelesse to read them at home . besides this generall exception ; there 's one or two more against particular apocryphall places : as 1. against that , tobit 3. of asmodeus his killing of seven husbands of sarah the daughter of raguel before they had layen with her . answ. i have heard of as unlikely a matter as that : but however , it 's not impossible . 2. it 's excepted against , tob. 3. 8. where it 's said that almes-deeds deliver from death , and purge away all sin . answ. that they do so , and that one way is in that they declare , at the last day , the saints to be justified in the sight of god , mat. 25. nay they confesse themselves , title 1. of doctrine , that a charitable construction may be wyre-drawn out of the words . and is not there as much wyre-drawing to be used in ▪ making a good construction upon these words [ make ye friends of the unrighteous mammon , that when ye faile , they may receive you into everlasting habitations ? ] another way of expounding the words is in the homily it selfe , namely that god for the doing of almes-deeds does repute us as clean and pure , not that they have any such strength or merit in themselves . to the other exceptions against raphael , vers. 15. and elsewhere , and also against judith . i answer , that though it were granted that the story were untrue : yet the ill quality or carriage of the persons in it , are not fit mediums to discredit the truth of it : for then many books of the holy scripture must be false . 2. of the rubricks . 1. exception is , that the minister is called priest . i answer , that the word priest is the best and properest word that can be used even in the sense of the authors of this exception themselves , in as much as it is nothing else but an abbreviation of the french word prestre , which is presbyter : in all words that are french and that end in e feminine , as prestre does , the english cannot pronounce the e feminine but by a kinde of stifling of it ; which in time degenerateth into an e quiescent , which at last gives occasion to the leaving of it quite out of the orthography of the word as unnecessary . as in alarme , baptisme , catechisme , & prestre ( with a number of other words ) which are now written alarm , baptism , catechism , prest ; and to lengthen the word to the french manner of pronunciation , the letter i is put in , as a metheg , to bridle the over-hasty prolation of the same . and as for the word , minister , it is taken either generally , & so it comprehends the apostles and bishops themselves : ( for they and we are all ministers of the gospel : ) or else specifically ( wch is the thing here intended ) and so 't is diaconus , a deacon , and contradistinguished from a presbyter . so that upon the whole , the authors would have us say deacon instead of priest . now as for the scotish liturgy ; if it hath hit upon a more unknown name then priest is , we do well to retein this which is better known . 2. except . is a meer mistake : for the rubrick prefixed to the epistles and gospels runs thus . the collects , epistles & gospels , to be used at the celebration of the lords supper and holy communion throughout the year . whence they falsely infer , that they were never intended to be read but when there is the celebration of the lords supper : whereas the rubrick at the end of the communion sayes , that when there is no communion shall be said all that is appointed at the communion untill the end of the homily , concluding with the prayer for the whole estate of christs church militant here on earth , with some other collect : but that the communion is not celebrated throughout the whole yeare , is occasioned for want of a competent number of communicants . 3. exception is , that the rubrick before the generall confession at the communion runs thus : then shall this general confession be made in the name of all those that are to receive the holy communion either by one of them , or else by one of the ministers . what is this , say they , but to admit a private person to assist and bear a share in the administring of the lords supper against the 17. article of religion ? i answ. that the confession to be made by one of them , or by one of the ministers , presupposeth the priests speaking first : the which confession made by one of them , is as much as if it were made by the clerk who does not alwayes communicate , and consequently in that case is to absent himself . or were it made without the priests leading them ; yet it concludes not a liberty to lay-men to administer the sacrament ; in as much as to confesse , and to consecrate are two distinct things . 4th . exception is ; that before the proper prefaces at the communion , it is said that upon christmas , and seven dayes after ; upon easter day and seven dayes after , &c. the same shall be read . as if every one of the seven were the same with the first , and what was done the first day were done every day following . i answer ; that the first of those dayes is the originall , the rest are all copies thereof : the feast continuing , the rest are the same in ecclesiasticall account , though the first be the principall . 5th . exception is , that every parishioner shall communicate three times in a year , of which easter shall be one : yet the minister is required every assembly day to invite them to come to the lords table : therefore say they , the foresaid rubrick seems to dispense with gods invitation : how rightly , say they , let all sober men consider . i answer ; that whether that be a dispensation with gods invitation , let all sober men judge too ? and of these three , easter is to be one ; because , though every lords day be celebrated in memory of our lords resurrection ; yet easter day , ( according to the judgement of the church , ) comes nearest the day of his resurrection . but 6ly . where it is added in that rubrick . he shall receive the sacraments and other rites , &c. this , say they , is no other but non-sense or worse : for what other sacraments are then to be received ? or what other rites ? i answ. 1. that by sacraments are understood the two signes bread and wine , which being partes integrales similares , receive the denomination of the whole : as every part of water is water , because 't is a similar part . so that were there nothing more then this piece of phylosophy in it ; it were not to be accounted non-sense : but there 's divinity too , to make it good . for first , you must grant the sacrament of the lords supper , and the holy communion to be in substance the same : but now , sayes the apostle , 1 cor. 10. 16. the bread that we break , is it not the communion of the body of christ ? the cup of blessing that we bless , is it not the communion of the blood of christ ? wherein you see that both the integrall parts of the communion receive the denomination of the whole . 2. for other rites , the party to communicate may need and desire absolution in case of scandalous and conscience-wasting sins . he may receive confirmation , in case he hath never received that , or the communion before : and are not these rites ? or can these be done without rites ? 7. exception is this : the last rubrick before the catechisme in order to confirmation concludeth thus : it is certain that children baptized have all things necessary to salvation , and be undoubtedly saved . is this a truth , say they ? answ. that it is a great truth , inasmuch as no other ceremony is required on our parts ; and the promise of god makes it sure on his part : wherefore , if they cast not themselves into doubtings , charity binds us not to doubt of their salvation . 8. exception is ; that the rubrick after matrimony says that the new married persons the same day of their marriage , must receive the communion ; and yet no man is bound to receive it above three times a year . answ. 1. why may not this day be one ? 2. they are not ordinarily to receive above three times a year , but in this extraordinary case they are : and many do desire to do it ; but there is not alwayes a sufficient number to communicate ; a thing required by the rubrick . 9. exception is , that in the last rubrick for the communion of the sicke in the time of plague or any other contagious disease , when none of the parish can be gotten to communicate with the sicke for fear of infection , the minister may onely communicate with him . by this , say they , the minister is bound not onely to visite him , but to communicate with him , a thing no way agreeable , 1. to christianity , in as much as the very nature of a sacrament requires a publique administration ; besides that other rubricks require a greater number of communicants , even when the sacrament is given to a sicke person . 2. no way agreeable to common humanity ; in as much as a minister is bound to hazard his health , and life , to gratifie an infectious person . i answ. 1. that this is not disagreeable to christianity : because that god has promised to be in the midst of two or three gathered together in christs name . 2ly . the rubricks require greater numbers in other cases where they are more likely to be procured , as in ordinary diseases they may ; which cannot be done in this : and that 's the reason why the rubrick here requires it not . 2. 't is not dis-agreeable to humanity ; in as much as it is said that the minister may communicate only with the infected person : it doth not say that he must do it ; and therefore he 's not bound hereby to do it , unlesse he finds himself bound in conscience , or can secure himself from infection . 3. of the body of the book . the first exception is ; that the first words of it are these : at what time soever a sinner doth repent , &c. this , in the rubrick before it , is called a sentence of scripture : but ▪ say they , 't is not onely no sentence of scripture , but it is also dissonant from another [ to day if ye will hear his voice , &c. ] and besides it implies that a man may repent when he will . i answer ; that 't is a sentence of scripture rendred according to the sense of the place : for the [ if ] is indefinitely taken , it is not if to day onely , or if to morrow onely ; if at this time only , or if at that timeonely : but if at all , if at any time : that is to say , at what time soever . god often in mercy calls us to repentance : if at any time , at what time soever we answer his call , he will receive us graciously : yet this does not argue that it is in our power to repent when we will , after our refusall of gods severall gracious invitations . but this is not all ; for after our regeneration and first conversion unto god , we fall into sin , we go astray , and that every day , yea seven times a day , which makes vs every day confesse and pray to god to forgive us our trespasses according as we are taught by our saviour . and therefore the [ if ] signifies not onely at what particular time soever ; but as often as a sinner shall repent , &c. so often will god forgive . now nothing that hath been said is dissonant to that place [ to day if ye will hear his voice , &c. ] for though it be the surest way to hear gods voice to day , that is at present , lest any should be hardened through the deceitfulnesse of sin : yet god was grieved forty years with his people in the wildernesse , before he sware in his wrath that they should not enter into his rest . the refusall of the present invitation , may prove a means of hardning of us through the deceitfulness of sin ; but it enforceth no present shutting of the door of mercy against us . 2. exception is against that expression in the confession [ there is no health in us ] as if it were not to be understood by the common sort . answ. that no body can understand this of bodily health ; but of the salvable condition of the soule , which is taken away by sin . 3. exception is against the reading of te deum and the benedicite , as interrupting the continued reading of the holy scriptures , which the preface of that book , say they , beareth us in hand , is provided against . ans. that there it is provided against , breaking of one piece of a chapter from another ; and after such interruption reading forward again , like the interposition of a selah , or {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , things wherof we have examples in the psalms , but no where else . 4th . exception is against te deum and benedicite , because they are both apocrypha and taken out of the masse-book : from whence they would argue the unfitness of bishops to govern , who , not able to express their thanksgiving to god for extraordinary mercies , do it in this superstitions formall dress usually sung in popish churches . i answ. that the best service that any man performs ( besides the saying of the lords prayer , and the reading of the holy scripture ) is apocryphall : nor is there a better piece of service in the church of god ( except before excepted ) then that piece of apocrypha , viz. te deum , is . then which , had the masse-book no worse , it would need no reformation . and many of those that have gone about to make expressions of thanksgiving for gods extraordinary mercies in termes and methods of their own , have performed it so ill , that they had better have contented themselves with a bare te deum . if they say , it 's but a generall and ordinary forme of praising , not applicable to the occasion ; i answer ; that , at such times , we in like manner use to sing psalmes in meter ; which ( quatenus such ) are apocryphal , and generall formes ; or , at most , not ( in all things ) applicable to the present occasion . as for the benedicite , they except not so much against the matter of , as the title given to it in the bible , not here ; as also against some alterations made in it , none whereof are against the analogy of faith , i therefore passe it over : for it answers it self . 5th . exception is , that the many antiphonies and responds ( except the peoples saying amen ) have no pattern nor warrant in the word . answ. that they have a pattern , 1 sam. 18. 7. where it is said that the women answered , &c. that is , sayes junius , hunc amaebaeum versum alternis canebant : they sang interchangeably , saul hath slain his thousand , and david hs ten thonsand , as it is also exod. 15. 2. besides divers patterns that there are in the psalmes , of such interchangeable singing . 6th . exception is that ( from the tyranny of the bishop of rome and all his detestable enormities ) is left out in the letany , inasmuch as he had never more instruments at work then now . answ. that the act for uniformity gives notice of an alteration in the letany : but whether herein or no , is uncertain . mean time we may very well pray so ; since the pope had never more instruments , who thinking to do their own work , have done his . 8. exception ( for i omit the seventh here as answered before ) is that it 's said in the collect for christmas , that christ was this day , viz. decemb. 25. borne , &c. which is evidently grounded on no place of scripture . answ. on what place of scripture is it evidently grounded , that this day , viz. august 19. is the lords day ? have you any more then ecclesiastical tradition for it ? as for saying the same seven dayes after : this hath been spoken to before . 9. exception is against our saying at the communion , therefore with angels , and archangels , &c. the scripture never speaking of more archangels then one , which is mentioned , 1 thes. 4. 16. this one was michael , jude 9. to wit christ , the prince of his people , dan. 10. 21. which most ( if not all ) expound of christ . for ▪ answer whereunto i say ; that , that place of 1 thess. 4. 16. does neither imply that there is but that one archangel , nor yet , that , that one archangel is christ : for 1. it is said that the lord shal descend from heaven {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} in the voice ef an arch-angel ; not {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . in the voyce of the arch-angell ; as if there were no more but that . 2. if the lord shall descend in the voice of an arch-angel ; and this arch-angel were christ , then christ ( who is meant by lord there ) must descend in his own voice , and he must be gods trumpeter , to give summons to his own tribunal , which cannnt be imagined . indeed jude 9. there is mention made of michael {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the arch-angel disputing with the devill : but how by that christ should be understood , is not at all clear , as i suppose they themselves will confesse , if they consider the {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} in the text [ he durst not . ] sure if it had been christ , st. jude would have said ( he would not ) not ( he durst not ) for what durst not christ say or do ? dares not he rebuke his creatures though devils , who hath rebuked so many unclean spirits in his time , who trembled at his presence in humane flesh ? the meaning is then , that michael that good arch-angel ( and he of a great sphere too ) would not rail at the devill ( though he knew him to be a damned spirit ) because he was in great dignity amongst them : yet those men spake evill of dignities they understood not . and for that dan. 10. they say most ( if not all ) expound it of christ . that ( if not all ) was well put in : for they know ( i believe ) that many learned men understand it not of christ . now as for the ecclesiastical hierarchy of dyonisius the areopagite : though the book may be supposititious ; yet the thing it self , gregory the great testifies to be received for dyonisius his own . hom. 34. in evangelia . 10. exception is that in the second prayer at publique baptisme we pray that iufants coming to baptisme may receive remission of sins by spirituall regèneration ; how can this , say they , be ; when remission of sins is received , not by or from spirituall regeneration ; but by and from the blood of christ ? i answer . that the end of baptisme is , that thereby , as an outward means , we may receive remission of sins : this baptisme whereby we are baptized into the remission of sins , is likewise rightly called an outward and elementary regeneration : now therefore we pray to god that infants coming to baptisme may receive remission of sinnes , ( not in an elementary way , and signo tenus onely , but also ) truly and effectually by spirituall regeneration or spirituall baptisme ; these being the conduit-pipes whereby , and through which christs blood is conveyed unto infants . 11. exception is , that children being not able to perform the things promised for them , are said to perform them by their sureties ; and therefore they repent and believe , say they , by their sureties , which is a meer tale . answ. that here is no such thing implyed , as repenting and believing one for another ; but a promise of a holding of the infants baptized to that profession by instruction of , and vigilance over them , and that they shall perform all outward acts of christianity when they come of age ; and this was a very great charge in the primitive times , when either for fear , or favour , or profit apostacy was so frequent . 12. exception is against the commination to be used divers times in the year , taken out of deut. 27. i answer ; that that place is a type of the day of judgement : that as all the people were to say amen ( at their entrance into the earthly canaan ) to the curses denounced against the wicked . so all the saints at their entrance into the heavenly canaan , are to say amen , that is , to aprove of the condemnation of them ; for the saints shall thus judge the earth . to avoid which condemnation hereafter , it imports us to condemn our selves here . now men are apt to justifie , rather then to judge themselves , and so escape the condemnation of the world : for such , therefore is this commination necessary ; that , hereby , they may be brought to acknowledge their sins , to repent of them , and require absolution from them . that discipline , in stead whereof this commination is used , is noted in the beginning hereof . if therefore , they like not this , they may do well to endeavour the restoring of that . but they except further against the denunciation made by ministers , as unlawfull . whereunto i answer , that the ministers of the gospel may and must sometimes presse the curses of the law , and the judgements of god denounced against sinners ; to the end , that , thereby they may be moved to flye to christ as their onely sanctuary , and so escape the judgement to come . and hereof we have an example given in that very place . for though they are pleased to say , that levi was none of them that were appointed to curse ; yet vers . 14. we find the levites to be the onely men that were appointed to curse . 't is true that ( at that particular time ) levi was one of those that were set upon mount gerezim to blesse : yet levites ( and none else ) were charged with the ordinary denunciation of curses for the future as a service specially incumbent on them ; which is point blanck against the authors , and proves for us the quite contrary to what they endeavour to infer . of rites and ceremonies . they begin here with ceremonies taken away 5 , 6 edw. 6. complaining of the restoring them again partly by the canons of 1603. & partly by corrupt practice . the thing they chiefly aym at ( as they professe ) is , to shew the necessity of reforming those rites and ceremonies conteyned in the book of common prayer or enjoyned by the canons of 1603. the consideration of the canons for the present they defer . the book of common prayer they deny to be established by law , because no record can be produced by which that book now in use , or priuted 1 eliz. is by act of parliament ratified and confirmed . answ. that all i can say to this is , that this is the book that hath been so long received and used , and this is the book that is warranted by the kings proclamation printed before it : and i doubt not but the testimony of the king will in law ( being for the affirmative too ) preponderate the testimonies of many other : but since they undertake to shew the necessity of reforming the book , they must shew some reason in the things themselves therein conteyned which require it . and this they endeavour to make good from the nature of them , taking it for granted that they are {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , or things indifferent ; saying , that those ought not to be imposed on such as cannot be perswaded in their owne minds that they are lawfull , because to them it will be sin , according to st. pauls own doctrine , to his corinthians , & rom. 14. answ. that if they be granted to be indifferent ▪ then they are made necessary by the intervention of humane authority . as for those that cannot be fully perswaded in their own minds , the proclamation hath provided that they be born with for a time : and no more is intended by st. paul , who never dreamt that , that superstitious conceit of the uncleanness of some meats should remain to the end of the world . since the conference at hampton-court , there hath been time enough to cosinder of the indifferency of ceremonies , and the learned authors of this offer have had time enough to instruct and convince the weak amongst them in and of the indifferency which they grant to be in them . should doctrine , liturgy , rites , ordination , episcopacy , discipline be laid aside till all men be agreed , we must never expect any whilst the world stands . 4. of church-government . here they except against episcopacy as not being jure divino , because erected by the kings of england . answ. that if episcopacy be jure divino in the catholique church , it must be so in the church of england , which is a part of it . the kings of england are no fathers of the church , so as to beget the church ; but they are , as well as other kings , the nursing fathers to the churches in their dominions . they allow them nurseries to live in , appennage to live upon , and freedome of exercising their government : in which sense they are the erectors of episcopacy ▪ in england : and if this erection be legall , why need it a further confirmation by law ? but they descend to the parts of government , and therein 1. of the consecration of bishops , and their power of ordination thereupon . 1. they except against those that say , that where there is no dean and chapter to choose , and no archbishop to consecrate , there can be ( legally ) and ( regularly ) no succession of bishops . answ. the archbishops , deans and chapters , &c. being of ecclesiasticall and civill constitution , it must follow of necessity that there can be no legall ( which respects the civill power ) nor regular or canonicall succession ( which regards the ecclesiastical state and condition of them ) without deans and chapters , and archbishop . 2. exception is , that episcopacy hath been lately insisted upon not onely to be an office of precedency and presidency above other presbyters and ministers ; but also a distinct and specificall order ( by divine right ) superiour to all other presbyters , to exercise such things as none else may meddle with . ans. that this hath been insisted upon , and hath been made good by those that have been put upon it by the presbyterians their adversaries herein , decrying them as popish , and having no other bottom to stand upon besides ecclesiastical constitution and civill connivance ; till they enforced them to leave this hold and flye to one more impregnable , that is to say , the scripture . impregnable i say : for if our saviour did appoint any regimen ecclesiae at all , it may be undenyably proved out of the scripture , that it was to be seated in a single person . the same text or texts that prove the one , will make good the other , a thing which hath been done within this nine or ten years at oxford in the vespers , but was not then , nor ever since hath been answered . 3. oh but , say they , linwood himselfe our great english canonist saith expresly , that episcopatus non est ordo ; and our book of ordination tacitely implyeth as much . answ. that this ( tacitely ) is well put in : yea but it doth more then ( tacitely ) do so , say they . ans. then it doth ( expresly ) say so , which will never be proved . now as for linwood , we must know that when it is said by the canonists , or schoolmen that episcopacy is not an order ; by order they understand , according as they define it , to be a setting of one apart in ordine ad celebranda sacramenta : for in this sense a bishop is not a distinct order from a priest or presbyter : but as we here understand order h. e. for a superiour to the rest of the presbyters , &c. episcopacy is an order : and so much anselm himselfe , whom they produce , makes good : who makes not bishops meer chair-men of committees of presbyters , but persons vested in a superiour power , durante vitâ ; and such whereof there was an uninterrupted succession at alexandria from st. mark the evangelist to heracla and dionysius , who sate there in the 3d. century . 4th . exception is , that dr. heylen one of the episcopal party will allow none to be rightly ordained , who have been ordained by presbyters , even where no bishops are allowed to execute the office . answ. that many things may be allowed in a case of necessity , which notwithstanding , are neither canonical , nor otherwise rightly done . 5. they say that 1. there is no script . that appropriateth this to a bishop alone . 2. that there are severall warrants in the new testament to justifie the laying on of hands without a bishop in our sense , as acts 13. 3. 1 tim. 4. 14. 2 tim. 1. 6. 3. the book of ordination allows the bishop to be {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , but not to act alone . i answer . that those very places which they produce against the appropriating hereof to a bishop , do prove it . for acts 13. 3. though beza renders it out of the greek , imposuerunt eis manus , in the plurall : yet the syriack interpreter reads it imposuerunt eis manum . it was then manum imposuerunt principally and auctoritatively : but manus concurrently with it ( though this separating of paul and barnabas was an extraordinary thing , which the holy spirit commanded expresly to be done by mean persons , that the grace might the more evidently appear sayes chrysostom . ) wherefore 1 tim. 4. 14. it is said , neglect not that gift which was given to thee by prophesie {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , not {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , &c. for this was st. pauls work and prerogative , 2 tim. 1. 6. which interprets our book of ordination : wherein is required the concurrence , not the authority of other presbyters to the giving of holy orders . 6. but they say that the statute of 13 eliz. allows of any under the degree of a bishop that pretend to priest-hood , &c. by any other kind of ordination , so that he subscribes the articles . answ. that by any other form of ordination , for ought i know , may be understood the forms of ordination used in the church of rome , and that was done by bishops , which neither prelaticks nor presbyterians think necessary to be iterated . or be it an ordination by presbyterians , it was in the absence of a bishop , and an urgent necessity in the thing it self ( which the law presumes ) and then factum valet quod fieri non debuit : unless the party himself be not satisfied with his ordination . 7. and say they , this were to unchurch all protestant churches in christendome which have no bishops . answ. that it may be they cannot have them ; a thing i have heard that the low-countrey divines complained of at the council of dort , as the cause of all those heresies and differences in opinion that were amongst them , as it hath been with us during this many years suspension of them . now this does not unchurch them , inasmuch as it 's done in a case of necessity , and they desire that which they cannot enjoy ; but it leaves them in a confusion , imperfection , and unsetledness of church-government . god first created light , and it served the turn for a while before it was collected into one body : but he never intended it should remain so for the constant government of the world . 8. they say that in the ordering of deacons the bishop alone is to lay on hands ; which is contrary to the practice of the apostles , acts 6. where it is said , that they , ( not one of them ) laid their hands on them . moreover in the prayer then used after the letany , it 's said , that god did inspire the apostles to chuse to this order st. stephen with other : whereas the text saith , the whole multitude chose them . answ. that although they all laid hands on them , yet one would have served : it was therefore ex abundanti , not necessario as hath been already shewed in the matter of ordaining of presbyters : and these the whole multitude chose , but they had their conge des●ire from the apostles first : nay the apostles bade them chuse , and causa causae est causa causati . 9. in the act of ordination the bishop takes upon him that which none but god himselfe hath power to bestow , in saying , receive the holy ghost . answ , that none but god himself hath power to bestow the holy ghost , principally : but it 's bestowed ministerially by men in this ordinance of his . by holy ghost is understood here the grace of ministration ; which is that holy depositum committed to timothies charge by the imposition of st. pauls hands , 1 tim. 1. 6. and with men that have received this holy depositum hath christ promised his presence to the end of the world : behold i am with ( you ) that is men qualified as you are , ( for a supply of your mortality ) upon whom a double portion of your spirit descends . 2. of ecclesiastical jurisdiction the thing chiefly to be noted here is , that by the ordaining of priests it appears that the power of jurisdiction belongs to other besides bishops , inasmuch as a question propounded to the party to be ordained is : will you reverently obey your ordinary and other chief ministers unto whom the government and charge is committed over you : if it be said , say they , that this may be meant of arch ▪ deacons , deans , &c. that have it under the bishop , what is this to the intituling of all ministers thereunto . i answ. that all ministers are not intituled thereunto , but onely all chief ministers ; and such as have a power delegated unto them . yea , but they say further , that every minister of a parish hath power given him by the rubrick to keep notorious livers from the sacrament : and what is this but as much & as high a jurisdiction as any bishop can use in that particular ? answ. that this is but excommunicatio minor , and confessed to be but a particular case : neither in this case is it so high as the jurisdiction of a bishop ; inasmuch as herein lyeth an appeal from him to the bishop . 2. much time here is spent upon restraints laid upon bishops by kings : and particularly when the clergy petitioned the parliament ( 51 edw. 3. num . 83. ) that of every consultation conditionall , the ordinary may of himself take upon him the true understanding thereof , and therein proceed accordingly : the kings answer was , that the king cannot depart with his right , but to yeild to his subjects according to law . answ. all this might have been spared , and it shall be granted upon their bare words without further enquiry , it being great reason that nothing be done to the prejudice of the king or the laws of the land : for which reason the french k. hath alwayes a commissary in the protestants conventions , as may appear by the edicts themselves . onely thus much i must say by the way , that in my cursory observation i find , that for one act made against , there are 3. for the immunities of bishops in the time of that renowned king . that which is said concerning the bishops making his will : though true , is little to the question . but besides this ▪ 3. many things are alleaged to weaken the authority of bishops : but the last and heaviest thing of all is , that by act of parl. all their power and jurisdiction is taken away . 17 car. 1. answ. that by that act of 17 car. is intended the taking away of the high commission only , as i humbly conceive : if , as i have heard lawyers say , preambles to acts are the best interpreters of the acts themselves : for the preamble to that act witnesseth the abuses of the authority given to the high commissiners by that act of 1 eliz. to be the grouud of the act it selfe of 17 car. 1. again , if episcopal jurisdiction had been wholy taken away by the repealing of that clanse of 1 eliz. they would never have added another clause ( after that ) to restrain the power of bishops in case of penalties , for this had been to fight with a shadow . but though it were granted that the power of exercising episcopal jurisdiction be taken away contrary to the intent of the legislative power : yet all the world cannot take away episcopacy it self , it being an ordinance of god as is here confessed . the reasons given by them why they should not sit in parliament , are but the killing of a dead man , and so i let them passe . iii. of discipline . first , they shew how this discipline is bounded . 2. they will have no canon laws to be in force : and why ? because say they , the old canons were enacted 25 h. 8. 19. to be in force , till such time as they be viewed , searched , or otherwise ordered and determined by 32 persons or the more part of them . but dr. heylin confesseth that they were viewed , searched , and drawn into a body ( but never had the kings royal assent unto them ) therefore the said old canons , &c. say they , are abrogated . answ. by what authentick record doth it , or can it appear , that those 32 persons did view , search , order , or determine any thing therein ? since ( well might they be written or printed in a book , but ) the kings royal assent being never had , they were never authentickly recorded : & consequently they have neither force in themselves , nor do they abrogate or null any other canons or constitutions not contrariant to the laws of the land . inventa meliore lege , prior est abroganda , and not before . 2. now passing by the canons and injunctions of qu. eliz. we come to those made in convocation 1603. published by authority of king james under the great seal , and these onely can be pretended to be of any force , say they . answ. that this is more then i can see , if the other had the queens royal assent , and were never expresly call'd in after , especially if ●hey be not repugnant to after canons , &c. but , say they . even those canons of 1603. are not binding in as much as they were never confirmed by act of parl. although the kings royal assent was to them . for , say they , it seems to be contrary to the petition of right that they should . answ. that i cannot dive into the intrigues of disputes touching these canons , the legality whereof hath been the business of learned men , who have so well justified it in the opinion of all impartial auditors of the long parliam . where the argument was made , that they deserve an everlasting name for it . 3 in the close of all they say , that albeit it be pleaded by some that liturgies ( and among them the substance of ours ) are ancienter then the popish mass books by many hundred of years : and for that they produce fathers , and the liturgies of st. james , peter , and others , although by many learned men censured as suppositious . yet none of these authors do mention any publique forme ( the same for substance with ours ) although they speak of publick prayers made in the congregation , which none ever denyed . publique prayer is one thing ; a publique form , another . i answ. that it follows not that those forms are supposititious , because some of the matters therein contained are so . a child is not therefore supposititious , because it has the rickets , and is either swelled in one part , or pined away in others beyond its just and naturall proportion . but what do they think of the liturgy of st. chrysostome translated out of the syriack by masius , and used generally throughout all the greek church , as my lord primate of armagh hath noted ? is that no forme , or is it onely a supposititious form ? or what do they think of other liturgies as well as this , which have the lords prayer and giving of thanks in them , together with snch improvements as are explications of the lords prayer and the parts thereof ? are not these formes , yea and the same in substance with ours ? but that these were the first liturgies that ever were , is testified by cassander ( out of dionysius ) in liturgicis . who sayes that eucharistea solâ oratione dominicâ cum gratiarum actione primis temporibus celebrabatur . but now they speak out : for whereas in the begiuning they said that they were not against ( nay they were for ) liturgies , &c. yet now they say , that though the ancients speak of publique prayers ( which none , say they , ever denyed ) yet they never spake of publique formes : which is as much as to say , that we have no antiquity to justifie publique formes ; and therefore it were better be without them . but first , they confesse that these ancients mention publique prayers : and that these publique prayers were publique forms , is already proved . indeed there was a time when some used publique prayers in no publique formes : but that they used such alone , can never be proved : and what inconveniences ensued upon it , is too evident , by the 12th . canon of the milevitan council made against them , wherein it is provided that no prayers be used , but such as were approved by the wiser sort in the synod ; least any thing should be vented against the faith , either through ignorance , or want of meditation . finis . the faults being few , may be amended in reading . a christian beleefe concerning bishops this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a32888 of text r33290 in the english short title catalog (wing c3940). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 5 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 1 1-bit group-iv tiff page image. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a32888 wing c3940 estc r33290 13119344 ocm 13119344 97815 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a32888) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 97815) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1547:16) a christian beleefe concerning bishops northbrooke, john. spiritvs est vicarius christi in terra. 1 broadside. s.n.], [london : 1641. "partly extracted from john northbrooke's spiritvs est vicarius christie in terra. a breefe and pithie summe of the christian faith"--nuc pre-1956 imprints. place of publication suggested by wing. creased with slight loss of print. reproduction of original in the harvard university library. eng episcopacy. bishops. church polity. presbyterianism -apologetic works. a32888 r33290 (wing c3940). civilwar no a christian beleefe, concerning bishops. [no entry] 1641 844 9 0 0 0 0 0 107 f the rate of 107 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the f category of texts with 100 or more defects per 10,000 words. 2003-05 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-05 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-04 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2005-04 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a christian beleefe , concerning bishops . i a beleeve , b that the office of a bishop is a worthy office , and warrantable by the word of god , c approved of by the apostles , d and instituted of god himselfe : e having the charge of one particular church , f or congregation , under each of them , g which they are h set over , i to feede ; k that is , to preach the gospel to them : l instructing and m teaching them , not by the traditions of the fathers , n but by the holy scriptures , o and shewing them good examples , by leading p unreproovable lives , and q performing such offices of the r ministeriall function , as becommeth s such faithfull guides ; having regard to their t bishoprick , ( which is the u great charge of their w pastorall office ) x over which they are set . and i y beleeve , that our z praelaticall bishops , a who are lifted up to a b ruling power , and a c lording hierarchie , are d not called of god , nor of e divine institution , but f anti-christian , g ethnicall , and h diabolicall ; and i suffered to be k in the church , l by the good will and pleasure of almightie god , as a m punishment for our sinnes , and a token of gods displeasure : and therefore n the people of god ought to pray , o that they may be cast out of the church , and onely p preaching presbyters may remaine , to q divide the word of god , and open and r interprete it to the people . and i s beleeve , that the t temporall magistrates are appointed of god , to punish sinne u upon all evill doers , whether clergie , or laytie ; and the government of the church doth pertaine to the w church , or x congregation , with the y laytie , and their z assistance , and not to the sole a prelates . the church hath foure offices . first , to keepe the canonicall scriptures . secondly , to publish the same . thirdly , to keepe it cleare from the counterfeit apocrypha , and all ●ounterfeit and corrupt bookes . fourthly , to make it the rule of their actions . the churches authoritie doth consist ●hiefely in foure things . first , to choose and ordaine ministers , according to the order of the apostles . secondly , to teach by lawfull ministers , so made . thirdly , to minister the sacrament by tho●e ministers , using su●● , time as shall be thought most expedient for the s●me . fourthly , to examine the doctrines , whether they be of god , or not ; ●nd that must be done by the scriptures . john northbrooke , preacher of gods ●ord , cantabr . cyprianus ad cornaelium , liber primus . sacerdos dei evangelium tenens , & christà praecepta custodiens , occidi potest , non pot●st vinci . the faithfull beleever , that will imitate christ the high-priest , in holding the gospel , and keeping the commandements , may well be killed , but conquered he cannot be . printed in the yeere 1641. notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a32888e-30 a acts 8. 13. b 1 tim. 3. 1. c phil. 1. 1. d acts 20. 28. e revel. 2. 1. f psal. 68. 26. g 2 cor. 4. 5. h acts 20. 28. i rom. 1. 15. k 2 tim. 4. 1. l 1 cor. 2. 16. m math. 15. 3. n 2 tim. 3. 15. o 1 tim. 3. 2. p 2 cor. 8. 11. q eze. 44. 13. r rom. ●● 7. s isay 51. 18. t acts 1. 20. u 2 tim. 4. 1. w ephes. 4. 11. x hosea 7. 12. y acts 27. 25. z 2 tim. 4. 10. a 1 tim. 3. 6. b hosea 4. 18. c 1 peter 5. 3. d 1 thess. 5. 24. e 1 pet. 39. f 2 thess. 2. 3. g mark . 10. 42. h 2 tim. 3. 10. i 1 tim. 4. 10. k acts 19. 29. l 2 thess. 2. 4. m amos 8. 11. n john 17. 9. o 1 cor. 15. 24. p 2 cor. 4. 5. q 1 cor. 3. 14. r 1 cor. 14. 5. s john 2. 22. t rom. 13. 2. u rom. 13. 1. w 1 tim. 5. 16. x psal. 58. 1. y 1 tim. 5. 19. z acts 20. 17. a 1 pet. 5. 3. tolleration iustified, and persecution condemn'd. in an answer or examination, of the london-ministers letter whereof, many of them are of the synod, and yet framed this letter at sion-colledge; to be sent among others, to themselves at the assembly: in behalf of reformation and church-government, 2 corinth. ii. vers. 14. 15. and no marvail, for sathan himself is transformed into an angell of light. therefore it is no great thing, though his ministers transform themselves, as though they were ministers of righteousnesse; whose end shall be according to their works. walwyn, william, 1600-1681. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a97108 of text r200561 in the english short title catalog (thomason e319_15). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 47 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 9 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a97108 wing w692a thomason e319_15 estc r200561 99861278 99861278 113409 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a97108) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 113409) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 52:e319[15]) tolleration iustified, and persecution condemn'd. in an answer or examination, of the london-ministers letter whereof, many of them are of the synod, and yet framed this letter at sion-colledge; to be sent among others, to themselves at the assembly: in behalf of reformation and church-government, 2 corinth. ii. vers. 14. 15. and no marvail, for sathan himself is transformed into an angell of light. therefore it is no great thing, though his ministers transform themselves, as though they were ministers of righteousnesse; whose end shall be according to their works. walwyn, william, 1600-1681. [2], 15, [1] p. [s.n.], london, : printed in the year, 1646. attributed to william walwyn by wing. annotation on thomason copy: "jan: 29th 1645"; the second 6 in imprint date crossed out. reproduction of the original in the british library. eng religious tolerance -england -early works to 1800. church polity -early works to 1800. religion and state -england -early works to 1800. great britain -church history -17th century -early works to 1800. a97108 r200561 (thomason e319_15). civilwar no tolleration iustified, and persecution condemn'd.: in an answer or examination, of the london-ministers letter whereof, many of them are of walwyn, william 1646 8378 196 0 0 0 0 0 234 f the rate of 234 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the f category of texts with 100 or more defects per 10,000 words. 2007-02 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-02 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-04 mona logarbo sampled and proofread 2007-04 mona logarbo text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the letter of the london ministers to the assembly of divines at vvestminster ; against toleration , mildly examined ; and the mistakes thereof friendly discovered ; as vvell for the sakes of the independent and separation , as for the good of the common-wealth . when i call to minde the generall oppression ( before the parliament ) exercised upon good people , conscientious in the practice of their religion ; and that the presbyters did not onely suffer as much as any therein , but exclaim'd , and labour'd as much as any there-against : it is a wonder to me , that now that yoke is removed , and a blest opportnnity offered by almighty god , to the people and their parliament , to make every honest heart glad , by allowing a just and contentfull freedome , to serve god without hypocrisie ; and according to the perswasion of conscience : that one sect amongst us , that is the presbyters , that have been yoke-fellowes with us ; should not rest satisfied with being free as their brethren , but become restlesse in their contrivances and endeavours , till they become lords over us . the wonder is the same , as it would have been , had the israelites , after the aegyptian bondage , become task-masters in the land of canaan one to another , but that is more in them who have been instructed by our saviour in that blessed rule ; of doing unto others , what they would have others doe unto themselves . to discover the severall policies the presbiters have used to get into the chayre they have justled the bishops out of , whose example they have followed in many particulars ; as especially in the politick and graduall obtaining the ordinance for licencing , upon a pretence of stopping the kings writings , but intentionably obtained , and violently made use of against the independents , separation , and common-wealths-men , who either sees more , or something contrary to the designes of the licencer . to signifie to the people , how the presbiters have laboured to twist their interest with the parliaments , as the bishops did theirs with the king , how daily and burdensomly importunate they are with the parliament , to establish their government , ( which they are pleased to call christs ) and back it with authority , and a compulsive power , ( which by that very perticular appeares not to be his ) to lay open their private juncto's and councels , their framing petitions for the easie and ignorant people , their urging them upon the common councell , and obtruding them upou the chusers of common councell men , at the wardmote elections , even after the parliament had signified their dislike thereof ; to sum up their bitter invectives in pulpits , and strange liberty they take as well there , as in their writings , to make the separation and independents odious by scandals and untrue reports of them , in confidence of having the presse in their own hands , by which meanes , no man without hazard shall answer them , to lay open the manner and depth of these proceedings , is not the intention of this worke ; i only thought good to mention these particulars , that the presbiters may see they walke in a net , no 't is no cloud that covers them , and that they may fear that in time they may be discern'd as well by the whole people , as they are already by a very great part thereof . the london ministers letter , contriu'd in the conclave of sion colledge , is one of the numerous projects of the clergy : not made for the information of the sinod , but the misinformation of the people , to prevent which is my businesse at this time ; i will only take so much of it as is to the point in hand , to wit , tolleration . letter , it is true , by reason of different lights , and different ▪ sights among brethren , there may be dissenting in , opinion , yet why should there be any seperating from church communion . why ? because the differences in opinion is in matters that concerne church communion : you may as well put the question , why men play not the hypocrites ? as they must needs do if they should communicate in that church society , their minde cannot approve of . the question had been well put , if you had said , by reason of different lights , and different sights , there may be dissenting in opinion , yet why should our hearts be divided one from another ? why should our love from hence , and our affections grow cold and dead one towards another ? why should we not peaceably , beare one with another , till our sights grow better , and our light increase ? these would have been questions i thinke , that would have pusled a truly conscientious man to have found an answer for . that which next followes , to wit , the churches coat may be of divers colours , yet why should there be any rent in it : is but an old jing of the bishops , spoken by them formerly in reference to the presbiters ; and now mentioned , to make that which went before , which has no weight in it selfe , to sound the better . letter . have we not a touchstone of truth , the good word of god , and when all things are examined by the word , then that which is best may be held fast ; but first they must be knowne , and then examined afterward . i shall easily concur with them thus farr , that the word of god is the touchstone , that all opinions are to be examined by that , and that the best is to be held fast . but now who shall be the examiners , must needs be the question ; if the presbiter examine the independant and seperation , they are like to find the same censure the presbiters have already found , being examined by the bishops , and the bishops found from the pope : adversaries certainly are not competent judges ; aga ine , in matters disputable and controverted , every man must examine for himselfe , and so every man does , or else he must be conscious to himselfe , that he sees with other mens eyes , and has taken up an opinion , not because it consents with his understanding , but for that it is the safest and least troublesome as the world goes , or because such a man is of that opinion whom he reverences , and veri●y believes would not have been so , had it not been truth . i may be helpt in my examination , by other men , but no man o● sort of men ▪ are to examine for me , insomuch that before an opinion can properly be said to be mine , it must concord with my understanding . now here is the fallacy , and you shall find it in all papists , bishops , presbiters , or whatsoever other sort of men , have or would have in their hands the power of persecuting , that they alwayes suppose themselves to be competent examiners and judges of other men differing in judgement from them , a●d upon this weake supposition ( by no meanes to be allowed ) most of the reasons and arguments of the men forementioned , are supported . they proceed to charge much upon the indepe●dents , for not producing their modell of church-government ; for answer hereunto , i refer the reader to the reasons printed by the independents , and given into the house in their own justification , which the ministers might have taken notice of . i proceed to the supposed reasons urged by the ministers , against the tolleration of independency in the church . letter . 1. is , because the desires and endeavours of independents for a toleration , are at this time extreamly unseasonable , and pre : properous for , 1. the reformation of religion is not yet perfected and setled amongst us , according to our covenant . and why may not the reformation be raised up at last to such purity and perfection , that truly tender consciences may receive abundant satisfaction for ought that yet appeares . i would to god the people , their own friends especially , would but take notice of the fallacy of the reason : they would have reformation perfected according to the covenant , before the independents move to be tollerated : now reformation is not perfected according to the covenant , till schisme and heresie is extirpated ; which in the sequel of this letter , they judge independency tobe , that their charity thinks it then most seasonable , to move that independency should be tolerated after it is extirpated : their reason and affection in this , are alike sound to the independants . their drift in this , indeede is but too evident , they would have the independents silent , till they get power in their hands , and then let them talke if they dare , certainly , the most seasonable time to move for tolleration is while the parliament are in debate about church government ; since if stay bee made till a church government bee setled , all motions that may but seeme to derogate from that , how just soever in themselves , how good soever for the common-wealth , must needs be hardly obtained . and whereas they say , why may not reformation be raised up at last to such prity and perfection , that truly tender consciences may receive abundant satisfaction , for ought that yet appeares . observe , 1. that these very ministers , in the sequel of their letter , impute it as levity in the independents , that they are not at a stay , but in expectation of new lights and reserves , as they say , so that a man would thinkf they themselves were at a certainty : but t is no new thing for one sort of men to object that as a crime against others , which they are guilty o themselves : though indeed but that the presbiters use any weapons against the independant's , t is no crime at all , yea 't is excellency in any man or woman , not to be pertinacio●s , or obstinate in any opinion , but to have an open eare for reason and argument , against whatsoever he holds , and to imbrace or reject , whatsoever upon further search he finds to be agreeable to , or dissonant from gods holy word . it doth appeare from the practises of the presbiters , and from this letter and other petitions expresly against toleration , that unlesse the independants and seperation will submit their judgements to theirs , they shall never be tollerated , if they can hinder it . their 2. reason is that it is not yet knowne what the government of the independent is , neither would they ever let the world know what they hold in that point , ●hough some of their party have bin too forward to challenge the london petitioners as led with blind obedience , and pinning their soules upon their preists sleeve , for desiring an establishment of the government of christ , before there was any modell of it extant . their 3d. reason , is much to the same purpose . i answer , 1. that the ministers know that the independent government for the generall is resolved upon by the independents , though they have not yet modelized every perticular , which is a worke of time , as the framing of the pres●●terian government was . the independents however have divers reasons for dissenting from the presbyterian way , which they have given in already . and though they have not concluded every perticular of their owne , but are still upon the search , and enquiry ; yet it is seasonable however to move for toleration , for that the ground of moving is not because they are independents , but because ▪ every man ought to be free in the worship and service of god , compulsion being the way to increase , not the number of converts , but of hypocrites ; whereas it is another case for people to move for establishing of a government they understand not , having never seene it , as the london petitioners did , that is most evidently a giving up of the understanding to other men , sure the presbiters themselves cannot thinke it otherwise , nor yet the people upon the least consideration of it . besides , the london petitioners did not only desire , as here the ministers cunningly say , an establishment of the government of christ , but an establishment of the government of christ ( a modell whereof the reverend assembly of divines have fram'd , which they never saw ) so that herein , the people were abused by the divines , by being put upon a petition , wherein they suppose that government which they never saw , to be christs government . if this be not sufficient to discover to our presbyterian lay-brethren , the divines confidence of their abilitity to worke them by the smoothnesse of phrase and language to what they please , and of their own easinesse , and flexibility to be so led , i know not what is . 2. the ministers urge that the desires and endeavours of the independ●nts for toleration , are unreasonable , and unequall in divers regards . 1. partly because no such toleration hath heitherto been establisht ( sofar as we know ) in any christian state , by the civill magistrate . but that the ministers have been used to speake what they please for ● reason in their pulpits without contradiction , they would never sure have let so slight a one as this have past from them : it seems by this reason , that if in any christian state a toleration by the magistrate had been allowed , it would not have been unreasonable for our state to allow it : the practice of states , being here supposed to be the rule of what 's reasonable ; whereas i had thought , that the practice of christian states is to be judg'd by the rule of reason and gods word , and not reason by them : that which is just and reasonable , is constant and perpetually so ; the practice of states though christian , is variable we see ; different one from another , and changing according to the prevalency of particular partees , and therefore a most uncertain rule of what is reasonable . besides , the state of holland doth tollerate ; and therefore the ministers argument , even in that part where it seems to be most strong for them , makes against them . again , if the practice of a christian state , be a sufficien● argument of the reasonablenesse of a tolleration , our state may justly tollerate because christian , and because they are free to do what ever any other state might formerly have done . but i stay too long upon so weak an argument . 2. partly , because some of them have solemnly profest , that they cannot suffer presbitary , and answerable hereunto is their practice , in those places where independency prevailes . 't is unreasonable it seems to tollerate independents , because independents would not if they had the power , suffer presbyters . a very christianly argument , and taken out of the 5. of matthew 44. love your enemies , blesse them that curse you , do good to them that hate you , and pray for them which hurte you , and persecute you : what , were all our london ministers forgetfull of t●eir saviours instructions ? does their fury so farre blinde their understanding , and exceed their piety ? which seems to be but pretended now , since in their practice they would become jews , and cry out an eye for an eye , and a tooth for a tooth . whosoever meddles with them it seems , shall have as good as they bting : was ever so strange a reason urg'd by a sect of men , that say they are ministers , christs ministers , reformers too , that would make the world believe they are about to reduce all matters christian , to the originall and primitive excellency of christ and the apostles , and yet to speak and publish to the world a spleenish reason , so expressely contrary to the precepts , to the practice of christ and his followers . to christ i say , that bids us love our enemies , that we may be the children of our father which is in heaven , who makes the sun to shine on the evill and the good , and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust . the ministers should be like the master , what a dispro●ortion is here ? as if the title were taken up for some other end ; we know the apostle speaks of ministers that could transform themselves ●s though they were the ministers of righteousnesse ; i pray god our ministers do not so , i would willingly suppresse those fears and suspitions ; which , doe what i can arise in me , from their words and practice . sure they had approved themselves better christia●s , if upon the discovery of so bad a spirit in any of the independents ; as to persecute , had they power ( though i beleive , there are not any such ) i say , it had been more christ-like in our ministers , to have disswaded them from s●unmanly , so much more unchristianly a vice , then to have it made an argument for practice in themselves . they might by the same rule , be jewes to the jew , or turke to the turke , oppressours to the oppressour ; or doe any evill to others , that others would doe to them : if other mens doing of i● , be an argument of the reasonablenesse thereof . but i hope , our ministers will be so ingenious , as when they see their weaknesses forsake them , it will be both more comfortable to all other sorts of men , and in the end more happy for themselves . 2. again , i suppose your suggestion to be very false ; namely , that the independents if they had power , would persecute the presbyters : though let me tell you of all s●cts of men , those deserve least countenance of a state that would be persecutors , not because of their consciences in the practice and exercise of their religion , wherein the ground of freedome consists ; but because a persecuting spirit is the greatest enemy to humane society , the dissolver of love and brotherly affection , the cause of envyings , heart-burnings , divisions , yea , and of warres it selfe . whosoever shall cast an impartiall eye upon times past , and examine the true cause and reason of the subversion , and devastation of states and countries , will i am confident ; attribute it to no other , then the tyranny of princes , and persecution of priests . so that all states , minding their true interests , namely the good and welfare of the people , ought by all meanes to suppresse in every sect or degree of men , whether papists , episcopalls , presbyters , independents , anabaptists , &c. the spirit of domination , and persecution , the disquieter and disturber of mankind ▪ the offspring of satan . god being all love , and having so communicated himselfe unto us , and gave us commands to be like him , mercifull , as he our heavenly father is mercifull ; to bear with one anothers infirmities : neither does reason and true wisdome dictate any other to us , then that we should do unto others , as we would be done unto our selves ; that spirit therefore which is contrary to god , to reason , to the well-being of states , as the spirit of persecution evidently is ; is most especially to be watcht , and warily to be circumscribed , and tied up by the wisdome of the supream power in common-wealths . i speak not this to the disgrace of presbyters , as presbyters ; for as such , isuppose they are not persecutors : forasmuch as i know , some , and i hope there are many more of them , that are zealous and conscientious for that form of government , and vet enemies to a compulsive power in matters of religion . but for this end only , namely to beget a just and christian dislike in all sorts of men , as well presbyters , as others ; of forc●ng all to one way of worship , though disagreeable to their minds : which cannot be done , without the assistance of this fury and 〈…〉 3. and partly to grant to them , and not to other ▪ sectaries who are free ▪ born ●s well as they , and have done as good service as they to the publick ( as they use to plead ) ▪ will be count●d injustice , and great partiality ; but to grant it to all , will scarce be cleared from impiety . to the former part of this argument i gladly consent , that sectaries have as good claimes to freedome ▪ as any sorts of men whatsoever ; because free-born , because well-affected , and very assistant to their country in its necessities . the latter part of the argument is only an affirmation , without proof ; the ministers think sure it will be taken for truth because they said it , for such a presumption it seems they are arrived to . in the mean time what must they suppose the people to be , that do imagine their bare affirmations ground for the peoples belief ▪ i would the people would learn from hence to be their own men , and make use of their own understandings in the search and beleif of things ; let their ministers be never so seemingly learned or judicious , god hath not given them understandings for nothing ; the submission of the mind is th most ignoble slavery ; which being in our own powers to keep free , the subjection thereof argues in us the greater basenesse ▪ but to the assertion , that it will be impiety to grant it to all sectaries . i answer , first , that the word sectary is communicable both to presbyters and independents , whether it be taken in the good sense for the followers ▪ of christ ; for such , all presbyters , independents , brownists , anabaptists , and all else , suppose and professe themsel●es to be : or in the common sense , for followers of some fewmen more eminent in their parts and abilities then other . and hereof the independents and presbyters are as guilty as the separation , and so are as well sectaries . now all sectaries , whether presbyters , independents , brownists , antinomians , anabaptists , &c. have a like title and right to freedome , or a toleration ; the title thereof being not any particular of the opinion but the equity of every mans being free in the state he lives in , and is obedient to , matters of opinion being not properly to be taken into cognisance any farther , then they break out into some disturbance , or disquiet to the state ▪ but you will say , that by such a toleration , blasphemy will be broached , and such strange and horrid ▪ opinions , as would make the eares of every godly and christian man to tingle ; what must this also be tolerated ? i answer , it cannot be just , to set bounds or limitations to toleration , any further then the safety of the people requires ; the more horrid and blasphemous the opinion is , the easier supprest , by reason and argument ; because it must necessarily be , that the weaker the arguments , are on one side , the stronger they are on the other ▪ the grosser the errour is , the more advantage hath truth over it ▪ the lesse colour likewise , and pretence there is , for imposing it upon the people . i am consident , that there is much more danger inn small , but speciously formed error , that hath a likenesse and similitude to truth , then in a grosse and palpable untruth . besides , can it in reason be judged the meetest way to draw a man out of his ●●ror , by imprisonment , bonds , or other punishment ? you may as well be angry , 〈…〉 ●●ripes or bonds to recover his sight how pr●posterous would this 〈◊〉 your ho●per ●nd mee● way ●u●e is to apply things 〈◊〉 to his cute . and so likewise to a man whose understanding is cloud●d , 〈…〉 and imperfect whose mind is so far mis-informed as to 〈…〉 or the scripture● ( for we instance in the worst of errors ) ●a● b●●lam or the fleet reduce such a one ? n● certainly ▪ it was ever found by all experience , that su●● rough 〈◊〉 did 〈◊〉 the error , not remove i● nothing can doe that but the 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 power of found reason and argument ▪ which , 〈◊〉 to b● doubted , they are 〈◊〉 furnisht withall that use other weapons ▪ hence have i observ ▪ d that the most weak & passionate men , the most unable to defend truth , or their own● opinion are the most violent for persecution ▪ whereas those whose minds are establisht ; and whose opinions are built upon firm and 〈◊〉 grou●d ●eare no● what winds blow● fear not to grapple with any e●ror , because they bo●●d ●n● they 〈◊〉 overthrow it ▪ 3. independency is a schisme , and therefore not to be tollerated . the principall argument brought to prove it , is this ▪ because they d●part from the presbyter churches , which are true churches , and so confost to ●o 〈◊〉 by ●he i●depend●nt● . i answer , that this argument only concerns the 〈◊〉 because they only acknowledge them to be true churches . whether they are still of that opinion o● no i know not , 't is to be doubted they are not , especially 〈◊〉 they have discern'd the spirit of enforcement and compul●ion to ●aig● in that c●ur●h ▪ the tr●est mark of a false c●urch . i believe the independents have ●●●ng'd their 〈◊〉 ● es●eially those of them whose pastors r●●●ive their office ●nd mi●is●try 〈◊〉 the election of the people or congregation , and are not engag'd to allow so much 〈◊〉 the presbyters , because of their own interest ▪ as deriving their calling from the bis●ops and pope ▪ for the making up a supposed succession from the apostles , who se● their own sakes are enforc'd to acknowledge the presbyter for ● true church , 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 are necessitated to allow the episcopall and papist church , true o● valid fo● the substance ▪ as they confesse in the ordinance for ordination , because they have receiv'd their ministery therefrom , without which absurdity they cannot maintain their succession from the apostles . but that the independents are not a schism , they have and will , i believe ▪ upon all●occa●ions sufficiently justifi● ▪ i shall not the●e●or● , ●ince it concerns them in particular , 〈◊〉 thereupon ▪ 〈…〉 to the supposed mischiefs which the ministers say will ●nevitably fo●low upon th●● toll●r●tion , both to the church and commonwea the first , to the church . 1. causelesse ●nd unjust revol●s from our ministery and congreg●tions . to this i say , that i● argues an abundance of distrust the ministers have in thei● own abilities , and the doctrines they pr●●ch , to suppose their ●uditors will for●●k● them if other men have liberty to speak . 't is authority it seems ●ust 〈◊〉 thei● churches , and not the truth and eff●a●cy of their doctr●nes . i j●dge it ●or my pa●●●●ufficient ground to suspect that for gold that can't abide a triall . it seems our ministers doctrines and religion , are like dagon of the p●ilistins , that will fall to pie●●s at the appearance of the ark . truth sure would be more confident , in hope to app●●● 〈…〉 glorious , being set off by falshood . and therefore i do adjure the ministers , from ●hat lovelinesse and potency that necessarily must be in truth and righteousnesse , if ●hey think they do professe it , that they ▪ would procure the opening of every mans mouth , in confidence that truth , in whomsoever she is , will prove victorious ; and ●ike the suns glorious lustre , darken all errors and vain imaginations of mans heart . but i fear the consequence sticks more in their stomacks , the emptying of their churches being the eclipsing of their reputations , and the diminishing of their profits ; if it be otherwise , le● it appear by an equall allowing of that to others , which they have labour'd so much for to be allowed to themselves . 2. our peoples minds will be troubled and in danger to be subuerted , acts 15. 24. a. the place of scripture may concern themselves , and may as well be urg'd upon them by the separation o● independents , as it is urg'd by them upon the separation and independen●s ; namely , that they trouble the peoples mindes , and lay injunctions upon them , they were never commanded to lay . and 't is very observable , the most of those scriptures they urge against the separation , do most properly belong unto themselves . 3. bitter heart-bur●ings a●ong brethren , will be foment●d and perpetuated to all posterity . i answer . not by , but fo● want of a tolleration : because the state is not equall in its protection , but allows one sort of men to trample upon another ; from hence must necessarily ●rise heart-burnings , which as they have ever been , so they will ever be perpetuated to posterity , unlesse the state wisely prevent them , by taking away the distinction that foments them ; namely , ( the particular indulgency of one party , and neglect of the other ) by a just and equall tolleration . in that family strife and heart-burnings are commonly multiplied , where one son is more cockered and indu●g'd then ●nother ▪ the way to foster love and amity , as well in a family , as in a state , being ●n equall respect from those that are in author●●y . 4. they say , the godly , painfull , and orthodo● ▪ ministers will bee discouraged und d●spis●d ▪ answ. upou how slight foundation is ▪ their reputation supported , that fear being despised unlesse author●●y forces all to church to them ? since they have confidence to vou●h themselves godly ▪ painfull , and orthodot , me thinks they should uot doubt an ●udience . the apostles could empty the c●urches , and jewish synagogues , and by the prevalency of their doctrine convert 3000 at a sermon ; and doe our ministers f●are , that have the opportunity of a church , and the advan●age of speaking ●n h●●re together without interruption , that they cannot keep those auditors th●y h●ve ; but that they sh●ll bee withdrawn from them by men of ●eaner 〈◊〉 ( in their esteeme ) by the illiterate and under-valued lay preachers , that ●r● ( as the ministers suppose ) under the cloud of error and false doctrine ? surely they suspect their own tene●ss or their abilities to maintain them , that esteem it a discouragement to bee opposed ▪ and feare they shall be despised if dispu●●d withall . 5. they say , the life and power of godlinesse will be eaten out by frivolous disputes and vain janglings . answ. frivolous disputes and vain janglings , are as unjustifiable in the people as in the ministery , but milde and gentle reasonings ( which authority are onely to countenance ) make much to the finding out of truth , which doth most advance the life and power of godlinesse . besides , a toleration being allowed , and every sect labouring to make it appear that they are in the truth , whereof a good life , or the power of godlinesse being the best badge or symptome ; hence will necessarily follow , a noble contestation in all sorts of men to exceed in godlinesse , to the great improvement of vertue and piety amongst us . from whence it will be concluded too , that that sect will be supposed to have least truth in them , that are least vertuous , and godlike in their lives and conversations . 6. they urge , that the whole course of religion in private families will be interrupted and undermined . answ. as if the independents and separation were not as religious in their private families , as the presbyters , 7. reciprocall duties between persons of nearest and dearest relations , will be extreamly violated . answ. a needlesse fear , grounded upon a supposition , that difference in judgement must needs occasion coldnesse of affection , which indeed proceeds from the different countenance and protection , which states have hitherto afforded to men of different judgements . hence was it , that in the most persecuting times ▪ when it was almost as bad in the vulgar esteem to be an anabaptist , as a murtherer , it occasioned dis-inheritings , and many effects of want of affection , in people of nearest relations ; but since the common odium and vilification is in great measure taken off , by the wise and just permission of all sects of men by the parliament , man and wife , father and son , friend and friend , though of different opinions , can agree well together , and love one another ; which shews that such difference in affection , is not properly the effect of difference in judgement , but of persecution , and the distinct respect and different countenance that authority has formerly shewn towards men not conforming . 8. they say , that the whole work of r●formation , especially in discipline a●d government , will be retarded , disturbed , and in danger of b●ing utterly frustrate and void . it matters not , since they mean in the presbyterian discipline and government , accompanied with persecution ; nay , it will be abundantly happy for the people , and exceedingly conducing to a lasting peace ( to which persecution is the greatest enemy ) if such a government so qualified be never setled . the presbyters i hope , will fall short in their ayms . ● . 't is not certain that the parliament mean to settle the presbyterian government , since they have not declared that government to be agreeable to gods word ; although the presbyters are pleas'd , in their expressions , frequently to call their government , christ● government . howsoever their determination ( which may well be suppos'd to be buil● upon their interest ) is not binding ▪ they are call'd to advise withall ▪ not to controul . 2. in case the parliament should approve of that government in the main , yet the prelaticall and persecuting power of it , we may well presume ( since they themselves may smart under it as well as the rest of the people ) they will never establish . 9. all other sects and heresies in the kingdome , will be encouraged to endeavour the like tolleration . sects and heresies ▪ we must take leave to tell them , that those are ●ermes impos'd ad placitum , and may be retorted with the like confidence upon themselves . how prove they separation to be sects and heresies ; because they differ and separate from t●em ? that 's no argument , unlesse they can first prove themselves to be in the truth ? a matter with much presumption suppos'd , but never yet made good , and yet upon this groundlesse presumption , the whole fabrick of their function , their claim to the churches , their preheminence in determining matters of religion , their eager persuit after a power to persecute , is mainly supported . if the separation are sects and heresies , because the presbyters ( supposing themselves to have the countenance of authority , and some esteem with the people , judge them so : the presbyters by the same rule were so , because the bishops once in authority , and in greater countenance with the people , did so judge them to be . and whereas they say , that sects and heresies will be encouraged to endeavo●r the like tolleration with the independents . i answer , that 't is their right , their due as justly as their cloths , or food ; and if they indeavour not for their liberty , they are in a measure guilty of their owne bo●dage ▪ how monstrous a matter the ministers would make it to be , for men to labour to be free from persecution . they thinke they are in the ●addle already , but will never i hope have the reines in their hands ▪ their 10th . feare is the same . 2. they say the whole church of england ( they meane their whole church of england ) in sh●rt time will be ●wallowed up with di●traction and confusion . these things are but laid , not proved : were it not that the divines blew the coales of dissention , and exasperated one mans spirit against another ; i am confidently perswaded we might differ in opinion , and yet love one another very well ; ●s for any distraction or confusion that might intrench upon that civill peace , the laws migh● provide against it , which is the earnest desires both of the independen●● and seperation . 2. they say , tolleration will bring divers mischiefes upon the common-wealth : for , 1. all these mischeifes in the church will have their proportionable influence upon the common-wealth . this is but a slight supposition , and mentions no evill that is like to befall the common-wealth . 2. they urge that the kingdome will be wofully weakned by scandalls and divisions , so that the enemies both domesticall ▪ and forraigne will be encouraged to plot and practise against it . i answer , that the contrary hereunto is much more likely , for two reasons . 1. there is like to be a concurrence , and joynt assistance in the protection of the common-wealth , which affords a joynt protection and encouragement to the people . 2. there can be no greater argument to the people , to venture their estates and lives in defence of their country and that government , under which they enjoy not only a liberty , of estate and person , but a freedome likewise of serving god according to their consciences , which religious men account the greatest blessing upon earth ; i might mention notable instances of late actions of service in independents and seperatists , which arising but from hopes of such a freedome , can yet scarce be paraleld by any age or story . 3. they say it is much to be doubted , lest the power of the magistrate should not only be weakned , but even utterly overthrowne ; considering the principles and practices of independents , together with their compliance with other sectaries , sufficiently knowne to be antimagistraticall . an injurious , but common scandal , this whereof much use has been made to the misleading the people into false apprehensions of their brethren the seperatists , to the great increase of enmity and disaffection amongst us , whereof the ministers are most especially guilty : let any impartiall man examine the principles , and search into the practises of the separation , and he must needs conclude that they are not the men that trouble england , but those rather that lay it to their charge : the seperation indeede and independents are enemies to tyranny , none more , and oppression , from whence i beleeve has arisen the forementioned scandall of them : but to just government and magistracy , none are more subject , and obedient : and therefore the ministers may do well to lay aside such obloquies , which will otherwise by time and other discovery , turne to their own disgrace . in the last place they say , 't is opposite to the covenant , 1. because opposite to the reformation of religion , according to the word of god , and example of the best reformed churches . i answer , 1 , that the example of the best reformed churches is not binding ▪ further then they agree with the word of god , so that the word of god indeed is the only rule . now the word of god is expresse for tolleration , as appea●es by the parable of the tares growing with the wheate , by those two expresse and positive rules , 1. every man should be fully perswaded of the t●uth of that way wherein he serves the lord , 2. that whatsoever is not of faith is sinne ; and 3. by that rule of reason and pure nature , cited by our blessed saviour : namely , whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you , that do you unto them . 2. they say it is destructive to the 3. kingdomes nearest conjunction and uniformity in religion and goverment . i answer , that the same tolleration may be allowed in the 3. kingdomes , together with the same religion and government ; whether it shall be presbiterian , or independent , or anabaptisticall : besides that i suppose which is principally intended by this part of the covenant , 't is the union of the 3. kingdomes , and making them each desensive and helpfull to the other , which a tolleration will be a meanes to further , because of the encouragement that every man will have to maintaine his so excellent freedome ; which he cannot better do , then by maintaining them ●ll because of the independency they will have one upon the other . 3. 't is expresly contrary to the extirpation of schisme , and whatsoever shall be found contrary to sound doctrine , and the power of godlinesse . i answer , that when it is certainly determined by judges that cannot err , who are the schismaticks , there may be some seeming pretence to extirpate them , though then also no power or force is to be used , but lawfull means only , as the wise men have interpreted it ; that is , schisme and heresie , when they appeare to be such , are to be rooted out by reason and debate , the sword of the spirit , not of the flesh ; arguments , not blowes : unto which men betake themselves upon distrust of their own foundations , and consciousnesse of their owne inability . besides , as the presbiters judge others to be a schisme from them , so others judge them to be a schisme from the truth , in which sence only the covenant can be taken . 4. hereby we shall be involved in the guilt of other mens sinnes , and thereby be endangered to receive of their plagues . i answer , that compulsion must necessarily occasion both much cruelty and much hypocrisie : whereof the divines , labouring so much for the cause , which is persecution , cannot be guiltlesse . 5. it seemes utterly impossible ( if such a tolleration should be granted ) that the lord should be one , and his name one , in the 3. kingdomes . i suppose they mean by that phrase , it is impossible that our iudgements and profession should be one ; so i believe it is , whether there be a tolleration or no . but certainly the likeliest way , if there be any thereunto , is by finding out one truth ; which most probably will be by giving libetty to every man to speak his minde , and produce his reasons and arguments ; and not by hearing one sect only : that if it does produce a forc'd unity , it may be more probably in errour , then in truth ; the ministers being not so likely to deal clearly in the search thereof , because of their interests , ar the laity , who live not thereupon , but enquire for truth , for truths sake , and the satisfaction of their own mindes . and thus i have done with the argumentive part of the letter . i shall onely desire , that what i have said may be without prejudice considered : and that the people would look upon all sorts of men and writings , as they are in themselves , and not as they are represented by others , or forestall'd by a deceitfull rumour or opinion . in this controversie concerning tolleration , i make no question but the parliament will judge justly between the two parties ; who have both the greatest opportunity and abilities , to discern between the integrity of the one side , and the interest of the other . that the one party pleads for toleration , for the comfort and tranquility of their lives , and the peaceable serving of god according to their consciences , in which they desire no mans disturbance . that the other that plead against it , may ( i would i could say onely probably ) be swayed by interest and self-respects , their means and preheminence . i make no question but the parliament , before they proceed to a determination of matters concerning religion , will as they have heard one party , the divines , so likewise reserve one ear for all other sorts of men ; knowing that they that give sentence , all partees being not heard , though the sentence be just ( which then likely will not be ) yet they are unjust . besides , the parliament themselves are much concerned in this controvers●e , since upon their dissolution they must mixe with the people , and then either enjoy the sweets of freedome , or suffer under the most irksome yoke of priestly bondage : and therefore since they are concern'd in a double respect ; first , as chosen by the people to provide for their safety and freedome , whereof liberty of conscience is the principall branch , and so engag'd by duty : secondly , as members of the common-wealth , and so oblig'd to establish freedome , out of love to themselves and their posterity . i shall only add one word more concerning this letter , which is this ; that 't is worth the observation , that the same men are part of the contrivers of it , and part of those to whom 't was sent ; mr. walker being president of sion colledge , mr. seaman one of the deans , ( observe that word ) and mr. roborough , one of the assistants , all three members of the synod : who with the rest framing it seasonably , and purposely to meet with the letter from scotland , concerning church government , may w●ll remove the wonder and admiration that seem'd to possesse one of the scotch grand divines in the synod , at the concurrence of providence in these two let●ers : of the politick and confederated ordering whereof , he could not be ignorant . finis . a just apologie for the church of duckenfield in cheshire against certain slanderous reports received by mr. edwards his overmuch credulite of what may tend to the reproach of those that differ from himselfe in judgement (though but concerning matters meerly of externall order, and things of inferior ally to the substantiall doctrines of faith, and manners) rashly and without further examination of the truth of them, (together with an overplus of his own censures, and uncharitable animadversions) divulged by himselfe in a !--book of his, intituled, the third part of gangræna / by samuel eaton, teacher & timothy taylor, pastour of the church of god at duckerfeild ; whereunto also is annexed a letter of a godly minister, mr. henry rootes ... in vindication of himselfe against a sinister and dangerous (yet false and groundlesse) insinuation, contained in the copie of a letter out of yorkshire, sent unto the aforesaid mr. edwards, and by him published to the kingdome. eaton, samuel, 1596?-1665. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a37635 of text r4168 in the english short title catalog (wing e122). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 66 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 18 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a37635 wing e122 estc r4168 12413912 ocm 12413912 61618 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a37635) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 61618) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 938:7) a just apologie for the church of duckenfield in cheshire against certain slanderous reports received by mr. edwards his overmuch credulite of what may tend to the reproach of those that differ from himselfe in judgement (though but concerning matters meerly of externall order, and things of inferior ally to the substantiall doctrines of faith, and manners) rashly and without further examination of the truth of them, (together with an overplus of his own censures, and uncharitable animadversions) divulged by himselfe in a !--book of his, intituled, the third part of gangræna / by samuel eaton, teacher & timothy taylor, pastour of the church of god at duckerfeild ; whereunto also is annexed a letter of a godly minister, mr. henry rootes ... in vindication of himselfe against a sinister and dangerous (yet false and groundlesse) insinuation, contained in the copie of a letter out of yorkshire, sent unto the aforesaid mr. edwards, and by him published to the kingdome. eaton, samuel, 1596?-1665. taylor, timothy, 1611 or 12-1681. [8], 27 p. printed by m.s. for henry overton, and are to be sold at his shop ..., london : 1647. reproduction of original in cambridge university library. eng edwards, thomas, 1599-1647. -gangraena. -part 3. rootes, henry. church polity. sects -great britain -controversial literature. great britain -church history -17th century. a37635 r4168 (wing e122). civilwar no a just apologie for the church of duckenfeild in cheshire: against certain slanderous reports received by mr. edwards his overmuch creduliti eaton, samuel 1647 11065 25 5 0 0 0 0 27 c the rate of 27 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2006-10 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2006-10 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-10 taryn hakala sampled and proofread 2007-10 taryn hakala text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a just apologie for the church of duckenfeild in cheshire : against certain slanderous reports received by mr. edwards his overmuch credulitie of what may tend to the reproach of those that differ from himselfe in judgement ( though but concerning matters meerly of externall order , and things of inferior alloy to the substantiall doctrines of faith , and manners ) rashly and without further examination of the truth of them , ( together with an overplus of his own censures , and uncharitable animadversions ) divulged by himselfe in a late book of his , intituled , the third part of gangraena . by samuel eaton , teacher & timothy taylor , pastour of the church of god at duckenfeild . whereunto also is annexed a letter of a godly minister , mr henry rootes , pastour of the church of sowerbie in yorkshire , in vindication of himselfe against a sinister and dangerous ( yet false and groundlesse ) insinuation , contained in the copie of a letter out of yorkshire , sent unto the aforesaid mr. edwards , and by him published to the kingdome . 2 cor. 6. 8. by honour and dishonour , by evill report , and good report , as deceivers , and yet true . luk. 21. 19. in your patience possesse yee your soules . adeo satis idoneus patientiae sequester deus ▪ si iniuriam deposueris , penes eum ultor est ; si damnum , restitutor , si dolorem , medicus , &c. tertul. london ; printed by m. s. for henry overton , and are to be sold at his shop in popes-head-alley . 1647. to the christian reader ; grace and peace be multiplied . christian reader ; the apostle paul exhorts titus , to speake sound words in doctrine , that cannot be condemned ; and there is a proportionable equitie , that all men ( ministers especially ) should write and print sound words , that cannot be condemned . if mr. edwards had kept himselfe to this rule , our labour at this time might have been spared . our work in this narrative , is to rectifie his errours . he hath led many from the truth , so farre as concernes duckenfeild church ( for saving that there is an epistle of our brother roots annexed , there is nothing els medled with in this apologie ) and our undertaking is to reduce them to the truth . should we suffer all to passe for truth , which he publisheth concerning us , wee should betray the truth , and our own innocency . these faults may be justly charged upon him from the way he takes of blazoning the supposed failings of all other men , that differ from him , though but in the most controverted , dim , and disputable points ; and instances may be given ( if need require ) in passages that relate to us , and our church . first , he hath abroad in the kingdome factors that trade for him in the good names , and reputations of precious men , and orderly walking churches , ( who are not inferiour to the very chiefest of his presbyterians , whether men , or churches , though they be nothing ) which they and he sell over to be mancipated to infamy and disgrace , for supposed crimes falsly suggested against them by himselfe , and his creatures . secondly , he takes reports ( especially flowing ( as it is said ) from godly persons ) upon trust , and without any further examination , or inquisition after the truth of them , issues them abroad ( with a great measure of confidence ) into the kingdome , as if so be , his supposed godly persons , were arrived at an absolute incapacitie of hearing an untruth , and when they have heard it , reporting it for a truth . thirdly , he doth not consider that that malignant spirit , that in all preceding ages of the church hath bent mens tongues for lies , and slanders , against the saints of the most high god , is most industriously active at this day to render those men odious , whose conversation imports strictnesse of a more then ordinary elevation in the wayes of god . so that it is no securitie against the perill of false witnesse-bearing against the people of god , to say , such a godly man told me so ; especially when that that godly man was neither an eye , nor eare-witnesse of the thing , nor hath trac'd the report upward from man to man , to the first reporter , who had need to be godly , and an eye or eare-witnesse of the thing . our selves can speake experimentally of the failings of divers presbyterians formerly , whom we judged godly , that have taken up things against us by heare-say , for which they have seene cause afterwards to be ashamed ; which we desire rather to cover with the mantle of brotherly love , then like flies to fall upon their sores , and unnecessarily to uncover their nakednesse , and rake in their infirmities , as mr. edwards professedly deales with us . fourthly , mr. edwards runs the more desperate adventure , to split his reputation , and wound his conscience upon the innocency of traduced saints , because he takes not onely the testimony of one ingaged party against the other , but even of the most precipitate , fiery spirits of that partie , the strength of whose phansie is enough to multiply a mole-hill of srailtie in the saints , into a mountaine of obstinary ; yea , can make things that are not , appeare as though they were . and yet if the case were altered , mr. edwards possibly would thinke the testimonies of twenty of those whom he calls sectaries , incompetent to take away the good name of one godly presbyterian . fistly , the irregularitie of mr. edwards his proceeding , is the more inexcusable in this , that whereas there should be two or three witnesses for the confirmation of every matter , that is not of notorious cognizance ; and whereas the accused ought to come face to face before the accusers : mr. edwards publisheth things of a private nature , upon the bare report of some one man , who is not in the capacitie of being a competent witnesse in that matter whereof he is the relator . and so the good names of innocent , and some of them eminent persons in the kingdome , come to be blasted by the misprision of his supercilious , and unhallowed pen . instance pag. 167. in what is related concerning two gentlemen , persons of great worth and honour . sixtly , adde to this , that the impatience of his zeale in defaming the servants of god , holds no correspondence with principles of common prudence . for who but mr. edwards , knowing that the deacon of duckingfeild , pag. 68. was speedily to be brought upon the stage before the civill power , would not have expected the issues of his aay of audience , rather then by an hastie anticipation pre-judge ( as in his marginall note he doth ) a person not yet heard nor condemned by the civill state . and indeed a little patience ( comparatively to much ) might have served the turne . for not long after mr. thomas smith , bookseller of manchester , [ who ( as we coneeive ) was both mr. edwards intelligencer , and soone after the deacons accuser ] had a faire , and free hearing , before the committee against the deacon . yet the committee found not him guiltie of the supposed knavery in couzening the state , the discovery whereof was prophecied in the letter of august 3. 1646. published by mr. edwards , but dismissed him from their board without any censure . would mr. smith have thought it well , and if he should have approved of it , yet wee could not have avoyded the regreet of our own consciences , when he being nominated for an elder of manchester , and accusation upon accusation from parts nearer and more remote , were brought in against him , if wee should have writ up to london , that ere long mr. smiths knavery would be discovered , and such a one as he , is a fit man to be an elder in a presbyterian church ; even then when the businesse was depending , and unproved before the triars ? seventhly , nor can it well be omitted , ( and as little justified ) that from one act ( and that injuriously represented ) a judgement should be made upon a person ; a gentleman of worth must passe under the name of a great zelot for independents , from the evidence of one false instance , which is given in to prove it . would mr. edwards be well pleased to have such measure measured unto himselfe againe , and that because there are some slanderous reports published in mr. edwards booke , therefore the whole booke is a booke of slanders ? eightly and lastly , the scope and drift of mr. edwards is , to make the world beleeve , that such as those sectaries ( so by him called ) are , whose personall failings he divulgeth , such are ( or at least in time are like to be ) all that are of that sect respectively . now if the sectaries ( so called ) were baptized into the same uncharitable spirit , and would whet their style against the personall faults of presbyterians , with a desire to charge all upon the professors of that way , doubtlesse the volumes that might be written , would be far more voluminous then a compleat decade of gangraena's . as for thee ( christian reader ) wee hope we shall easily obtaine so much justice at thy hands , as not to be measured by mr. edwards reed ; but such as our doctrine , manner of life , patience , peaceablenesse , painfulnesse , are , ( be they more or lesse ) such let us be in the ballance of thy estimation . wee are abundantly sensible of the growth and increase of errours and heresies in the kingdome ; wee desire according to the measure of grace received , to pray against them , fast against them ; wee labour in the course of our ministry by preaching against them ; and as god gives us opportunitie in disputation , we labour to beat them downe ; and we trust god in his own time will dispel them . the premises are sufficient for thy premonition , not to take all for truth , that mr. edwards , or any other in this calumniatory age , shall rashly and uncharitably broach against any godly man , whether of the classicall or congregationall way . but first to try and trace reports , importing scandall to the fountaines of them , their first broachers ; by this meanes a great deale of uncharitable misprision will be prevented , and thou wilt have no occasion to mourne at the last . wee remaine thine , whilst thou art a friend to truth , samuel eaton , timothy taylor . a just apologie for the church of duckenfeild . master edwards amongst many other letters , and relations , which have been sent him from all parts of the kingdome , hath received ( it seemes ) some from the northerne parts , from lancashire , and cheshire : and in some of them there are passages that reflect upon the church of duckenfeild , and the officers thereof , with reproach and scorne , with falshood and slander ; and where any truth is , it is with an injurious intent manifested . we shall direct to the pages , transcribe the substance of the words , and make answer thereto . in pag. ●8 ▪ are these words ; mr. eaton , of whose activity to promote that way , ( that is , th●●ongregationall , which is the truely-so called presbyteriall way ) i doubt not you have heard , hath been the great apostle to promote their designe in these parts . answ. it may be a great question whether scoffing or irrationalitie be the 〈◊〉 predominant in this invective charge ▪ for it is without all bottom , unlesse activitie ( which he onely mentions ) he the bottom of it . and then all the clergie in lancashire are great apostles ; for he calls them pag. 167. an active clergie , that is , in promoting the presbyterian designe . and this is all the reason mr. edwards can shew , of inserting mr. eatons name among the principall independents and sectaries in his booke . but how comes it about , that mr. eaton is the great apostle in this place , who pag. 164. is but a pastor or teacher of the church of duckenfeild ? if mr. eaton be the grat apostle , who are teh lesser ? wee had thought among the apostles there had not been greater , and lesser . if he be the great apostle , what , or who are they that have sent him ? they must doubtlesse be greater then apostles ; for greater is he that doth send , then he that is sent . if he promote designes as an apostle , then the designes are preaching of the gospel up and downe , and gathering of churches , &c. now apostolicall preaching of the gospell in all places up and downe the countrey , is a good designe , especially at this time , when there is such want of preaching . but this designe , mr. eaton could not heretofore , nor can at this day attend upon , being a prefixed officer at duckenfeild , as is acknowledged pag. 164. and as for the designe of gathering churches , ( which is an apostles worke ) what one church hath mr. eaton gathered ? true it is , that he , with many others , wearied out with the long want of some of gods ordinances , and with corruption in other of gods ordinances , did at length ( for their better spirituall accommodation ) joyne together in fellowship , that they might injoy all gods ordinances . yet herein he no more gathered them , with whom he joyned , then they him . but be it that he promotes these designes , yet sithence these designes are of no worser import and contemplation then they are , neither they that sent him , ( if any such there be ) nor he that is sent , have cause to be ashamed . but his activitie is great . and wherein appeares this his great activitie , unlesse it be in entertaining now and then one call of many , to preach a sermon abroad , as occasions will permit ? or unlesse it be that in defence of the way he professeth , he answereth some of the many challenges brethren make in opposition against it . in which also he is rarely ingaged alone , and lesse active then his opponents shew themselves to be . in pag. 68. the extract of a letter written from the northerne parts , speakes thus ; i shall hereafter give you a particular account of the church of duckenfeild . answ. it had been safer for the author of this letter to look into his own heart , and see what is amisse there , that he may be able to give a particular account to god of all his wayes , when he shall be called thereto ; then to spend his time in observing duckenfeild , and medling with account of things that concern him not . is not this to be {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} a busi-body in other mens matters ; and if he suffer as such a one , what glory or comfort can he have at the last ? notwithstanding let him be sure his account be just , and it will prove no disadvantage to duckenfeild that he makes it . the ruling elder is a sequestrator in cheshire . answ. if the ruling elder be an honest man , and sequestratorship an honest imployment , we hope it is no disparagement to duckenfeild church , that their ruling elder is a sequestrator . their deacon is a sequestrator in lancashire ; the deacon i shall speedily being upon the stage , and make a notable discovery of his knavery in cou 〈…〉 ening the state . answ. as concerning the deacon , we shall give a true relation of the carriage of that matter . m. taylor preaching at shrewsbury the last summer , ( in the beginning of the moneth of august , as he remembreth ▪ had discourse with a religious gentleman ( a friend of his , and of the classicall way for matter of judgement ) concerning the different church-ways , that are now matters of such hot digladiation amongst many in the kingdome . the gentleman by way of discourse told him , that there were some in the church of duckenfeild , as bad as were to be found in the parish assemblies , and named laurence owen , a deacon of our church , and referred mr. taylor for further satisfaction to mr. thomas smith , book-seller in manchester , and to thomas hartley , for proofe of his dishonest dealing with the state . mr. taylor at his returne communicated this businesse to the elders of the church , and in a short time after wee both conferred with thomas hartley , and received from him a report that he was not satisfied that l. owen had carried the matter well , and gave some instances . hereupon wee resolved , ( so soon as possibly we could get a convenient time , ) to call laurence owen before us , and to require an account of him concerning his negotiation for the state : and to desire mr. smith , thomas hartley , and whomsoever els might fall under our intelligence , as a person able to witnesse any thing materiall concerning l. owen his proceeding , to give us the meeting . that if it might appeare that l. owen had done any thing to the prejudice of the state , or peace of a good conscience , wee might use our best endeavours to bring him to the sight of his sinne , and repentance for it , and also to make due satisfaction to the state . but many importune occasions falling in , in that conjunction of time , deferred the execution of our determinations for a short time , till a fit season was by the good hand of providence opened unto us . but when wee were fully ripened by a universall conflux of all conce●●●ring requisites for the issuing of this businesse , ( which had not suffered the least delay , but that we had probable , and promising grounds of hope , that the charges against him were founded upon mistakes in his accusers ) wee resolved to bring it under examination , with a most requisite and impartiall endeavour of discovering ( so far as god should help us ) the whole truth . now in this juncture of time , mr. smith had drawne up a charge , and brought it before the committee of lancashire , who upon a full , and impartiall hearing of the cause , did not find him guiltie of the things charged upon him , and so dismissed him from their board , without any censure . and this was the issue of mr. smiths confidence that he should speedily discover the knavery of the deacon , in his first attempt . and though this businesse issuing before the gentlemen , according to our former ( then present ) apprehensions , might have given reasonable satisfaction to us in point of the deacons innocency ; yet because wee understood that mr. smith was not herewithall satisfied , wee resolved ( as unforestalled in point of the innocency of the accused by any thing that passed before the gentlemen , or fell otherwise under our observation , ) to give mr. smith a full and faire hearing ; that so if he could make any reall discovery , wee might improve it to the glory of god , the states satisfaction , and our brothers spirituall good : and accordingly desired mr. smith , when he was ripe for the purpose , to let us understand . after some weekes past , mr. smith sent a declaration to mr. taylor , subscribed with his own hand , and the hands of george jackson , and tho : hartley ; containing divers charges against l. o. upon the receipt hereof , the church assembled to fast and pray before god , to seek assistance of grace on the behalfe of the brother that was afresh accused , that he might carry it candidly , and sincerely in his answer , as in the presence of god , and be as ready to take shame to himselfe , if any thing were justly charged , as to stand upon the defence of his innocency , in things wherein his conscience bore witnesse to the integritie of his actions : as also that the elders might be inabled to conceive aright of things , and to make report of them accordingly to the church . the dutie being ended , the severall charges were drawne out of the declaration [ the most materiall of them being the same ( as we have been informed ) that were agitated formerly before the committee ] and l. o. required to make answers to them : which accordingly he did . after we had thus heard both parties severally , wee desired to heare them joyntly , and that they might come face to face , for which purpose , mr. taylor writ a letter to mr. smith , and his two friends , desiring them to give us the meeting at some convenient place , and to bring with them such persons as might give in evidence against l. o. concerning any thing contained in the declaration , that might stand in need of further proofe . he also desired that mr. johnson of ashton , and mr. angier of denton ( two godly , and grave ministers of the classicall way ) might be present as witnesses of what passed on both sides . this desired meeting mr. smith and his two friends thought fit to decline for these two reasons , as they pretended . first , that matters of fact were laid downe with that distinctnesse , and clearenesse in the declaration , that they needed to adde no more words for the satisfaction of any ingenuous reader . secondly , ( and that by way of implication ) that wee were not authorized to take their examination upon oath . to which m. taylor in his letter to them answered , that our designe was ( according to our dutie ) to endeavour to bring our brother to the sight of his sinne , and repentance for it , in case he should prove guiltie , according to the severall charges contained in the declaration , or any of them . that this we could not doe , except wee could convince him . that we could not convince him , and upon conviction proceed against him , but by the proofe of two witnesses at the least , since he confidently denied divers things contained in the declaration , and in his answer avoyded the dint , and scope of the rest . that he desired to have his accusers come face to face , and that he might have libertie to answer for himselfe : and that this justice neither they , ( since they had laid a charge against him , nor wee ( if wee would carry it righteously a ) could deny him . that wee desired to know whether they did joyntly attest all , and every of the miscarriages charged in the declaration , or severally . if not all joyntly , but some severally , then we desired to know which of the particulars were attested by one onely witnesse , and which by two or more , since we could not proceed upon a single testimony , but must desire further proofe . that l. o. had brought a certificate b under the hand of a man beyond exception faithfull , ( who spake not by hearesay , but as an eye and eare witnesse , point-blank , contrary to one maine thing charged in the declaration , and also another man ( that had great reason to know the state of the businesse to which he spake , attesting that which is contrary to the maine thing charged by them , as we should give them fully to understand , if they pleased to give us the meeting . that there was also one thing mentioned in the declaration in generall termes , viz. certaine summes of money received that were not given in in his accounts , but no particulars specified , and we desired that the particulars might be given in , and so attested by themselves , or otherwise . that these things considered , they could not righteously deny us the meeting , notwithstanding the distinctnesse , and clearnesse in matter of fact pretended to be in their declaration . and as for the second , it was answered in mr. taylors letter aforesaid ; that if they did not judge it unfit to give in their accusation in their declaration , though they did not look upon us as authorized to administer an oath to them ; why might they not corroborate , and make out their accusation before us ( in things wherin there should be need of further light , ) though we were not in a capacitie to administer an oath unto them ? these were the most material ▪ p ssages in mr. taylors letter . mr. smiths answer in the most considerable pertinent passages was ; that he would have appeared before us , if he had believed us invested with any lawfull power by god● to have taken his examination ▪ that to comply with us in thi 〈…〉 way , would be a remedy worse then the disease . that if l. o. desired is accusers to come face to face , why according to his counsell had he not brought his accusers before the committee ? that he would not trouble himselfe with 〈◊〉 certificate he 〈…〉 ve , or from whom procured , since he 〈…〉 to make out the maine particulars of his 〈…〉 wn accounts and confession and by sufficient 〈…〉 ony upon oath ▪ that he 〈…〉 not the declaration to one church , nor in any of his letters had acknowledged mr. taylor a minister . that if we desired a meeting in a christian way , and not in a church-way , and pleased to let manchester be the place , he would meet us , and endeavour to ingage his two friends , and such other witnesses as should be necessary . that for other particulars in the letter , ( i. e. whether they did attest the things charged in the declaration severally , or joyntly , and if not all joyntly , but some severally , then which were attested by one witnesse , and which by two or more ) wherein we desired satisfaction , he conceived it would be fitter to give in account to the committee for sequestration then to us . to which mr. taylor replyed , that whether he acknowledged the church of duckenfield a church , the elders a presbyteris , or himselfe a minister , neither the one , nor the other , nor himselfe did regard . for with them it was a small thing to be judged of him , or of mans judgement . to their own master they must stand or fall . that the scope of this desired meeting ( on our part ) was not to steale from him an acknowledgement of the truth of our church , or ministries , but an improvement of it to this end , that our brother might be healed in his conscience , if he had done any iniquitie , and in his reputation ( so far as in us lay ) if none of those things whereof he was accused were found in him . and forasmuch as a meeting of them in the capacitie of christians , would be of equivolent conducency to the attainment of our end , wee should as willingly meet them under that notion , as in the capacitie of a presbytery . this answer being thus returned , we were in plenary expectation , that this businesse would speedily be issued one way or other . but though we condescended to meet mr. smith upon his own termes , yet in his answer to mr. taylor , he totally ( contrary to his own ingagement , and promise under his own hand , ) refused to meet us , and not onely so , but expressed himselfe resolved to forbeare all further intercourse with mr. taylor in writing about this matter . the reason alledged by him of his refusall to meet us , was , that he was inhibited by the committee of accounts , who were resolved to take the full examination of the businesse themselves , conceiving that our private debates , would no way advantage the publick , and might prejudice them in their proceedings . assuring us that if we would have but a little patience , things would be discovered to our full satisfaction , out of the examination taken upon oath . when we were thus deserted by mr. smith , and his two confederate friends , refusing to tell us which of the charges were attested by one onely witnesse , and which by two or more , or to give any particulars attested where the charge was generall , refusing also to give us the meeting for the making out of his charge , where it needed proofe , viz. in such things , whereof he , and his two friends , were onely the relators , and accusers , but could not possibly be the attestors or witnesses : when wee were thus deserted , ( wee say ) yet wee left no stone unmoved , further to informe our selves concerning this businesse . and having notice that l. o. was to come to his answer before the committee of accounts for lancashire , upon tuesday the second of febr. 1646. ( to our best remembrance ) in manchester : wee both came thither , and sent to the gen gentlemen of that committee , to desire libertie that wee might sit by and heare what passed that day for our further satisfaction . but this libertie was denied us by the gentlemen at that time . after this mr. taylor having intelligence of the meeting of the committee upon a tuesday , came to manchester to desire a copie of l. o. his charge , the better to enable them to discover the truth of this matter . but after he had come twice or thrice to the place where usually they sate , he was informed , that the countrey people came not in , and so they would not sit that day , and so lost his labour at that time . after this he applied himselfe to one of them particularly , expressing the desire that himselfe , and his brethren had to be throughly possessed of the state of that businesse , and that it would be a very great courtesie to us , if wee might but have a copie of the depositions . the gentleman answered , that it was resolved at their board , that l. o. should not onely be allowed breviates , but also copies at large of the depositions , and there was but onely one thing undetermined , and that was , whether since all the examinations were not taken , he should have the depositions piece meale , or the whole together . mr. taylor went away well satisfied in the candor , and impartialitie of the gentlemens proceedings in that matter . and so wee hope that in due time we shall enjoy the advantage of those depositions , to enable us to make a judgement of the cause , and till then wee shall suspend our thoughts and determinations about that matter . onely this wee cannot but take notice of ; that mr. smith after some depositions were taken , before l. o ▪ had answered for himselfe , ( for that is not yet done ) or the gentlemen had passed any censure against him , ( which also is not yet done ) he writ up to a gentleman a friend of his in london ; that the deacon of duckenfield his knavery is proved before the committee upon oath , and be turned out of his place . his letter bore date , jan. 30. 1646. who reading this letter , would not conclude , that the committee , after a full hearing of both sides , had found l. o. guiltie ? and for his guilt ( or knavery , to speake in mr. smiths dialect ) had turned him out of his place ? and so his friend in london took it up . whereas the truth is , the examinations are not yet all taken , neither to this day of our present writing , hath l. o. a copie of any one deposition , nor have the committee of accounts passed any censure at all against him , much lesse put him out of his place . but the committee of the countie to ease the publick charge , did diminish the number of the agents for sequestration , and ( without any character of disgrace at all ) did suspend him from the execution of his place ; as they did also many other persons of unspotted side litie to the state . a copie of which suspension is as followeth . at the committee , january 15. 1646. for as much as by reason of the many and great sequestrators within this county , which have lately been suspended , and taken off , by the compositions at goldsmiths-hall : this committee doe conceive it necessary to reduce the agents employed in the sequestrations in the severall limits , and divisions , hereafter particularly expressed ; viz. oliver edge in manchester divisiou : isaack dehoo , in middleton division : richard bradshaw , in bolton division : william kindsly and william parr , in the parishes of warrington , winwick , wiggan & leigh ; and peter ambrose , and john case in the remainder of the hundred of derby , william eccleston and thomas jackson , for ●●yland hundred : charles gregory , and john haworth , in blackhurne hundred : james smith , richard whitehead , and william audeland , in amundernesse hundred : and thomas towlinson , thomas gardner , adam sands , and john sawry , in lonisdale hundred . and that all other agents employed in the sequestrations in this countie , shall from and after the first day of march next , suspend and forbeare the execution of their places or employments as agents . and in the meane time they are to perfect their accounts , and deliver the same to mr. okey upon such penalties as are imposed by the ordinance of parliament . and the collectors for sequestrations in lonisdale hundred are from hence forward to forbeare the execution of their employments . and the agents of that hundred are to performe the same accordingly . j. bradshawe . john starkie . thomas birche . robert cunliffe . william knipe . n. rigbie . vera copia examinat . per me oliver edge . and yet even since that time , that committee that put him out , hath put him in againe ; which doubtlesse they would never have done , had they judged him unfaithfull to the state . a copie of which order for re-execution of his place is as followeth . at the committee , march 4. 1646. it is ordered , that william kindsly , william parr , and john hampson , shall be employed for the sequestration in the parishes of warrington , winwicke , leygh , and wiggan , and that they shall have one collector to assist them . and that richard bradshaw shall act as agent for sequestrations in the parishes of bolton , deane , bury , and ratliffe , and that he shall have one collector for his assistance therein ; and that isaac dehoo , and edward dutton shall be agents in the parishes of ashton under line , ouldham , middleton , and rachdale , and one collector to assist them . and that oliver edge , and laurence owen , shall be agents in the parishes of manchester , eccles , drestwich , and flixton , and that the parties aforenamed , shall doe , execute , and performe all things pertaining to that employment , as by ordinance of parliament is appointed . and that for their care and paines to be taken therein , they shall all of them receive the usuall salarie , and pay , as hath been accustomably used to have been allowed , and paid to others of the like employment : saving that there shall be allowed to mr. dutton , and mr. dehoo , the weekly pay of twenty-foure shillings , onely untill further order . j. bradshawe . john starkie . thomas birche . n. rigbie . h. eleetwood . vera copia examinat . per me oliver edge . farre be it from us , to bring any rayling accusation against mr. smith , but let the tree be judged by its fruits , the man by his actions . as for laurence owen , and his businesse , we shall leave it in the middle , and neither cleare him , nor condemne him , ( further then matters of fact ▪ reported in this narrative are of a tendency one way or other ) till the businesse be issued before the committee of accounts . onely hereby it doth appeare , that the church , and the elders , have laboured in some good measure to doe their duty . now we passe to the prodigious story of the invisible drumme . in pag. 164. there is the story of a drumme , and mr. edwards makes a godly minister of cheshire to be the reporter of it to him , but his name is concealed ; wee may not know him , yet we may aske mr. edwards whether the minister were an eye or eare witnesse of it ? if he were not , nor yet asserted so much to mr. edwards , how comes it that mr. edwards saith in his preface ; for other relations ( alludeing to relations of fact ) i have them from such knowne godly ministers , and christians , being eare and eye witnesse thereof . this will be found a monstrous untruth in mr. edwards : however , because there was no such minister , an eare , or eye-witnesse of this matter , it will be found a loud lye betwixt them , upon which of them soever it will fall . but because there is great enquiry made in some parts of the kingdome about this matter , wee thinke it necessary for the satisfaction of all that would be informed in the truth of it , to give a briefe relation of it , as it was at duckenfeild , and afterwards to manifest what a bundell of untruths were knit up together in the story , as it is represented to the kingdome . and for the truth of what we say , wee shall appeale to many impartiall auditors , who ( as they sometimes repaire to the chappell ) so they were eare and eye-witnesse of the whole matter that very day . their testimony ( they being neither members of our church , nor of our opinion ) wee hope will currantly passe with all rationall men . which is as followeth . upon one lords day , while mr. eaton was preaching in duckenfeild-chappell , there was the noyse of rapping or striking upon one of the pewes or seates in the chappell , and ( they being made of thin wainscoate , and standing hollow from any wall ) the sound was the greater , but continued not long . upon the first hearing of it , mr. eaton turned his eare towards the place whence he conceived the sound came , and after he had finished the sentence he was speaking , he made a short pause , as his manner hath often been to doe , and the noyse immediately ceased ; and he began againe to speake , and so continued to the end , both of prayer and sermon , as at other times , without any further interruption . in the place , whence the noyse proceeded , there was a dogge which lay under the seate , and it was then , and still is supposed , that the dogge in scratching of his eare , struck upon the wainscoate with his foote , which in so little a place as duckenfeild chappell , might well cause as great a noyse , as was there heard : but before it could certainly be knowne what caused it , the noyse was ended , and the dogge was immediately put forth from the seate upon it . in witnesse to the truth of this we set to our hands . robert duckenfeild . william bardsley . george hurst . henry aritage . henry hurst . john taylor . william hampson . thomas ouldham . joseph ashton . william aritage . joseph andrew . having thus brought the truth to light , the untruths , that have been most maliciously and unrighteously forged upon it , will more easily be manifest to all mens eyes . first , that the noyse was like the beating of a march upon a drumme . secondly , that the noyse came in at the doores , and passed up the isle , and so compassed about the chappell . thirdly , that it interrupted mr. eaton , in such manner , that it caused him to desist from preaching , and to betake himselfe to prayer . fourthly , that at length ( the noyse continuing so long ) it caused the dissolution of the assembly , and forced all to flee from the chappell . these are foure desperate malicious untruths , by whomsoever first devised , and each untruth is more horrid and wicked then other . whereas mr. edwards doth comment upon it , and to make it the more remarkeable , would have it observed , that this was the first visible framed independant church that was set up in england , and before the apologists came from holland , &c. answ. wee answer , visible it hath been from the first day it was a church , for wee have carried all things publickly in the face of the world , to prevent the many foule aspersions which have been wont to be cast upon domestick and clandestine meetings ; that with christ wee might be able to say to all malicious false witnesse bearers , wee speake openly daily , in secret have wee said nothing , if therefore wee have done evill , beare witnesse of the evill , if not , why smile you us ca●s●esly ? but whether we were visible , and framed before the apologists came from holland , ( seeing that it is not yet full three yeares since the constitution of our church , and little above two yeares since it was compleated with officers , ) let mr. edwards himselfe ( who knowes the time of their coming from holland ) more considerately compute : and finding it false , ( as we are confident he will ) let him retract so bold an assertion . the conclusions which mr. edwards builds upon it , are foolish , cruell , and absurd , as may appeare from what hath been presented in the premisses ; and let it be considered , whether he hath not dipped his pen deeply in bloud , while he would prophesie what should become of the independants ? and whether he hath not shewed himselfe a bloudy man , and hath already in his heart split a great deale of innocent bloud : as for us , the prayers that wee have put up day by day in places where we preach , for peace betwixt us and our brethren of scotland , will cleare us that we are not the men he chargeth us to be : and wee commit it to god to have our innocency cleared to all mens consciences in his time . in the interim , wee are contented that those foule and hatefull charges , that mr. edwards hath made against us , may passe with the world upon such evidence , as they are presented , and that they may be received and credited upon those grounds upon which they are built , which are most impudent falsities , viz. for [ certainly , and assuredly , ] as there was a drumme heard , beating a march in duckenfeild chappell , so [ undoubtedly ] doe the independants delight in warre . againe , [ so surely , and unquestionably ] as the beating of this drumme , drove us out from the chappell , and brake up our meeting , so [ certainly and infallibly ] shall the warre which wee have sought , overthrow all our opinions , and meetings , and cast us out of england , as an abominable branch for ever : and so [ infallibly ] shall some of our heads be served up by the presbyterians , and put into bloud , as king cyrus his head was by tomyris . in pag. 166. and 167. there is a letter , in which the sectaries are charged to have promoted a petition for toleration , the members of duckenfeild to have framed it , the subscribers to be seekers , soule-sleepers , anabaptists , &c. and amongst others , one common drunken minister : it is styled , the petition of the peaceable and well-affected , who desire liberty of conscience , as was promised by the house of commons in their declaration . answ. truth it is , there was a petition on foote , both in cheshire , and lancashire : the fiercenesse of some presbyterians in their petitions in both counties against their brethren ( who would have lived peaceably by them ) was the cause of it . it was not for toleration , but against violence , where moderation and forbearing ought to be : it carried no such title , as the letter imports . some presbyterians were at the framing of it with independants ; many presbyterians employed in the promoting of it . the greater part of the subscribers were presbyterians ; the minister that is said to be a common drunkard , and yet signed it , is one who is entertained by a very godly people in lancashire , who have spoken very hopefully of him to one of us . however it prove , a classicall man he is , or was , a little after he had subscribed it , and therefore not for the honour of the informer , to mention him as a drunkard . if any young schollar which subscribed it , said he would defend independency with his bloud : the speech was rash , but may admit of as favourable a construction , as that somewhat like expression of a presbyterian , who said , he would burne at a stake , before he would reade the house of commons declaration of the 17th of aprill . but how many untruths have been written in these informations given in about this petition , may be worth the observation of the considerate reader . in this extract also some gentlemen of noble qualitie , are most unworthily and falsly charged ; and though they be not nominated , yet being it is notoriously known who are intended , the injury is not the lesse , but the greater ; for they might vindicate themselves from such aspersions had they been nominally mentioned . the one of them is said to be become a great zealot for independants , for no other reason , but because he is not causlesly transported , with that rage and fury against them , as the author of this letter is , and many other of the pre byterians are in that county ; that he threatned any godly minister to make their places too hot for denying their pulpits to mr. eaton , is most calumniously asserted against so honourable a person . the one of us was an eye and eare witnesse , when this man ( not a godly as it is said ) but an unworthy scandalous minister behaved himselfe insolently and audaciously against this gentleman ; and yet he bore it with remarkable patience , onely told him his own unworthy intemperate offensive carriage in his function , might ere long be brought against him , to cast him out . the other gentleman is said to have incouraged sectaries , discouraged and borne downe the orthodox well affected gentlemen and ministers , that they could never to this day , get any thing done against them . answ. but this is a most ingratefull accusation against so deserving a gentleman , who hath done his countrey , and the kingdome , such noble service , and it is full of malicious slander . for , first ; the persons that he is said to have incouraged , are knowne to be as godly and as orthodox ( independency excepted , which in point of oxthodoxnesse is under doubtfull disputation ) as any other . and what hath his incouraging been , but his entreating them to take their turnes in preaching with others : which service also the parliament hath required from some of their judgement . secondly , what instance can be given of any one orthodox gentleman , or minister , that he hath discouraged and borne downe ? thirdly , when were there ever any attempts made , and set afoote by any of the gentlemen or minister against such person , and he opposed them therein , and ingaged himselfe for the other party ? if none of these , then is he unworthily dealt with . and let it be observed , that whereas there is an implication in his words of a forwardnesse among the gentlemen and ministers to suppresse independency , there is an untruth closely wrapped up in it ; for no such thing hath appeared from the gentlemen , nor generally from the ministers . it is also considerable , how to usher in , what ( by way of defamation ) he would have the world to take notice of concerning this gentleman , he takes upon him to discover the state of cheshire , and therein his own horrid apprehensions of the independents , ( for he instanceth onely in them ) and he compares them ( by way of implication ) to some hideous devouring monster , and all that are taken with them he resembles to a miserable prey ; as if independency were mortiferous and deadly to all the imbracers of it , poysonous and destructive to mens soules . it is of sad consideration to thinke unto what an unjudiciousnesse of mind , and to what moastrous conceptions men are left , through want of charity . and then to confirme what he had asserted of cheshire , he strengthens it with a notorious untruth ; there are ( saith he ) two or three independent churches , set up by them already , and they are setting up two or three more ; the latter part of this relation is totally false . having done with cheshire , he proceeds to lay his defaming pen , upon some parliament-members , and delivers himselfe in such language , as if some abominable thing might be laid to their charge , which it would be lesse safe for men to mention , then to blaspheme all the persons in the trinity ; and by and by he addes words , which reflects upon the whole assembly of parliament : his expressions are these ; the suffering of the church of god to be rent and torne in pieces by heresies , schismes , and divisions , the retarding reliefe for poore bleeding ireland , the grieving and sadding the hearts of our brethren of scotland , &c. the words need no comment upon them who can permit and suffer ought , which the parliament will inhibit , and so of the rest it may be said ; therefore the parliament is struck at , but most unjustly ; for , how they have carried it in all these things , is abundantly evidenced to all that will open their eyes . there are other passages in these very letters , and in other letters which wee have read , which reflect upon some independent churches in these parts , and wee are able to contradict those things , wherewith they , and their officers are aspersed , and to declare the falsitie of them . and if we conceived , that themselves would be silent , we should thinke our selves bound to say somewhat ; but it is probable , the sense of injuries done them , will lie upon them , as well as upon us , and put them also upon vindication of themselves in due time . wee therefore shall rest satisfied in pleading our own innocercy , and shall intreat the impartiall reader , to consider with what dishonest and deceitfull stuffe , both relations and letters are filled , which will not abide tryall . our request to god shall be , that he would teach them , ( who thinke they doe god good service , in beating and baiting their brethren , ) more love , candidnesse , and ingenuity in all their relations of others , and all those who are the subjects of all their exclamations and oppositions , more innocency , and integritie in all their demeanor , that thence it may come to passe , that all that would accuse their good conversation , may be ashamed . the copie of a letter from mr. henry rootes , pastor of the church of sowerbie in yorkshire , in vindication of himselfe against a sinister and dangerous , yet false and groundlesse insinuation , conteined in the copie of a letter out of yorkshire , divulged by mr. edwards in the third part of gangranna . pag. 69. to his loving brethren , mr. eaton or mr. taylor , these be presented . dearely beloved brethren ; having received intelligence from my brother taylor , of your purpose of answering some slanders of mr. edwards , i desire to give you a true and faithfull accompt of what i delivered in that sermon , which is toucht upon in that letter of james robinsons , which is printed , and of the unchristian dealing in that particular . first , i exhorted all godly men to joyne themselves to some visible church , if they have opportunity . i explained my selfe , i say to some visible church ; not this or that , but some , i say , if they have opportunitie ; for if god take away their opportunitie , they must wait gods time : these cautions premised : these motives were added ; first , whosoever joynes not to some , sinneth , heb. 10. 25. jude ver. 19. secondly , god will punish such , zach. 14. 17 , 18 , 19. secondly , i exhorted all godly men , being joyned to some visible church , to strive to walke in some neernesse of communion with that church : as , 1. in love ; 2. peace ; 3. watchfulnesse ; 4. christian toleration of infirmities ; 5. seeking one anothers welfare ; 6. defending one another from common enemies , gen. 14. 14. act. 7. 24. act. 9. 24 , 25. where you may see a mistake in the relator of this last quotation ; this is the real truth , as i can produce mine own notes , and skores of witnesses to atrest the same . first , observe that this relation which now is printed , was carried on the sabbath day to another chappell , a mile distant , and there written downe in all hast , and the next morning posted away to manchester , and that week to yorke : spread fifty miles distant in a few dayes : the next weeke i hearing of it , both from yorke and manchester , i took occasion to speake with mr. hollingworth about it , who said he had seene such a letter , and i related unto him mine own expressions , and sense , who said after he heard me , that i had a deale of wrong done unto me ; i desired to know the party that did write the letter , that i might vindicate my selfe ; but he desired to be forborne in that ; i intreated him then to doe mee that brotherly office , as to deale with the party himselfe ; who promised he would , yet after all this , the letter is sent to london , and printed . secondly , the next lords day after i heard of this , i publickly before all the congregation , related what i had heard was written to yorke and manchester , ( the writer being present ) i then desired to repeate what i had delivered , and did so ; and shewed before all , my sense , that i meant it of the common enemy of the kingdome , ( we being at that time imbroyled in civill warre , ) and i added , that i was so farre from judging it lawfull , for the congregationall men to take up armes against the presbyterians , that i held it unlawfull for any private man to take up armes , except he was backed by publick authoritie . yea , i thought this warre , now in being , could not be justified , but that it hath the authoritie of the state to mannage it . thirdly , diverse weekes after this , ( learning who was the writer of this letter ) i dealt with him about it before one of his intimate friends , paul greenwood , shewing him how unchristianly he had dealt with mee in it : paul answered , indeed he should have knowne my sense before he had divulged it : and for his part , he observed the passages of that sermon as diligently as he could , and did not finde any thing of just exception against it : and i judge this paul , as judicious a christian as most about us , yet all this would not cause the letter to be recalled , or stayed from printing . fourthly , it may clearely be discerned by this relation , and the circumstances here set downe , that divers sinnes , divers wayes have been committed . first , by the first relator , who upon the lords day leaving his owne chappell , in the midst of the day , to goe to carry a piece of a relation , which proves the seed of slander ; if wittingly he minced the relation in the limitation , there 's doegs sinne in it , yea if he related it in that sense which the scribe , and publisher in print seeme to import , ( as it is very probable , by his hasty telling of it , and the others hasty writing of it abroad ) it was in that sense then the like sinne , to their's that were the false witnesses against our saviour , mat. 26. 60 , 61. cum joh. 2. 19. 21. but if it was rashly done , without any sinister intention , ( which is much to be doubted , ) yet there was evill in it , to relate a passage , and to leave out principall circumstances for the understanding of it . secondly , sinnes committed by the writer , and divulger were . first , a receiving an accusation against an elder upon one witnesse , without enquiring of the elder , whether it were so , though he might have done any day , and then divulging of it , behinde the backe , and never to the face , in a slanderous manner . secondly , impenitency , and hardnesse of heart , for when he was shewed his sinne , and could not but see it , yet to this day , he never gave any satisfaction , or testimony of repentance to the party wronged ; neither did he suppresse the divulging and printing of it , which he might easily have done , had he timely improved his endeavours , which in godlinesse he ought to have done ; but it appeares in this particular act , he loved evill more then good , and slandering more then speaking righteousnesse , psal. 52. 3. thirdly , the sinne of him that published in print these things was , his printing slanderous relations upon so sleight grounds , without enquiring into the certain truth ; yea having been admonished before of such dealings by mr. burroughs , mr. saltmarsh ; and mr. john goodwin , and found faulty in the same kinde , and yet goes on in the same trade ; surely the wise man layes a heavy doome on such , pro. 29. 1. all this shews by wofull experience , that there is a spirit of malice workes in the hearts of brethren against some of their brethren more virulent in this kinde , then the spirit of episcopacy , striking not only at our peace , libertie , and livelihood , but at our good names and reputations unjustly : which the bishops never could so touch : but i hope , god will in his time cleare us ; as in this particular by his goodnesse he hath done , and all the world may see it , if they will but view this . brethren , thus i have given you the truth , which i will avow ; if you please to adde any thing within these bounds which is defective ; to blot out any thing redundant or unnecessary , or alter any phrases which are harsh or unpolished , i give you free libertie , nay i intreate you as brethren to doe it , and insert it with your owne , and i will acknowledge my selfe much obliged unto you . i salute you both in the lord , and desire to be remembred to all the brethren , and so remaine sowerbie march 2. 1646. your truely loving brother in christ , henry roote . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a37635e-350 titus 2. 8 ▪ gangrae . p. 165. ibid. ibid. 3. gangr . pag. 164. & 165. act. 25. 16. pag. 167. the marginal note . pag. 68. notes for div a37635e-1740 3d. gang. gangrae . gangrae ▪ pag. 68. a acts 25. 16. & 26. 1. b the same certificate was since subscribed by another godlyman ▪ ☜ preston in com : lane . wiggan in com : lane . 3d. gang. pag. 167. the papers which passed at nevv-castle betwixt his sacred majestie and mr alex: henderson concerning the change of church-government. anno dom. 1646. charles i, king of england, 1600-1649. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a78958 of text r213547 in the english short title catalog (wing c2535a). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 87 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 34 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a78958 wing c2535a estc r213547 99895592 99895592 153109 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a78958) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 153109) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 2347:17) the papers which passed at nevv-castle betwixt his sacred majestie and mr alex: henderson concerning the change of church-government. anno dom. 1646. charles i, king of england, 1600-1649. henderson, alexander, 1583?-1646. aut marshall, william, fl. 1617-1650, engraver. [4], 58, [2] p. : port. (metal cut) printed [by john grismond] for r. royston, at the angel in ivie-lane, london : m. dc. xl. ix. [1649] printer's name from madan. the frontispiece is signed: guil: marshall sculp:. probably issued with the "eikon basilike". last leaf is blank. reproduction of original in the henry e. huntington library. eng church polity -early works to 1800. great britain -church history -17th century -early works to 1800. a78958 r213547 (wing c2535a). civilwar no the papers which passed at nevv-castle betwixt his sacred majestie and mr alex: henderson: concerning the change of church-government. anno charles i, king of england 1649 15241 4 5 0 0 0 0 6 b the rate of 6 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the b category of texts with fewer than 10 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-04 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-04 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-08 robyn anspach sampled and proofread 2007-08 robyn anspach text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion fidei defensor non enim to spreverunt solum ●ed me spreverunt , ne regnem super ips●● per ecclesiam p●tor . giul : marshall sculp ; the papers which passed at nevv-castle betwixt his sacred majestie and mr alex : henderson : concerning the change of church-government . anno dom. 1646. london . printed for r. royston , at the angel in ivie-lane m. dc.xl.ix . for mr. alex : henderson . his majesties first paper . mr. henderson , i know very well what a great disadvantage it is for me , to maintaine an argument of divinity with so able and learned a man as your self , it being your , not my profession ; which really was the cause that made me desire to heare some learned man argue my opinion with you , of whose abilities i might be confident , that i should not be led into an errour , for want of having all which could be said , layed open unto me : for indeed , my humour is such , that i am still partiall for that side , which i imagine suffers for the weaknesse of those that maintaine it ; alwaies thinking that equall champions would cast the ballance on the other part ; yet since that you ( thinking that it will save time ) desire to goe another way , i shall not contest with you in it , but treating you as my physitian , give you leave to take your owne way of cure ; onely i thought fit to warne you , lest if you , ( not i ) should be mistaken in this , you would be faine ( in a manner ) to begin anew . then know that from my infancy i was blest with the king my fathers love , which , i thanke god , was an unvaluable happinesse to me , all his daies , and among all his cares for my education , his chief was , to settle me right in religion ; in the true knowledge of which , he made himself so eminent to all the world , that , i am sure , none can call in question the brightnesse of his fame in that particular , without shewing their own ignorant base malice : he it was , who laid in me the grounds of christianity , which to this day i have been constant in ; so that whether the worthinesse of my instructor be considered , or the not few yeares that i have been setled in my principles ; it ought to be no strange thing , if it be found no easie worke , to make me alter them : and the rather , that hitherto , i have ( according to saint paul's rule , rom. 14. 22. ) been happy in not condemning my selfe , in that thing which i allow : thus having shewed you how , it remaines , to tell you what , i believe , in relation to these present miserable distractions . no one thing made me more reverence the reformation of my mother , the church of england , than that it was done ( according to the apostles defence , act. 24. 18. ) neither with multitude , nor with tumult , but legally and orderly ; and by those , whom i conceive to have onely the reforming power ; which with many other inducements , made me alwayes confident that the worke was very perfect , as to essentials ; of which number church-government being undoubtedly one , i put no question , but that would have been likewise altered , if there had been cause ; which opinion of mine , was soone turned into more than a confidence , when i perceived that in this particular ( as i must say of all the rest ) we retained nothing but according as it was deduced from the apostles to be the constant universall custome of the primitive church ; and that it was of such consequence , as by the alteration of it , we should deprive our selves of a lawfull priesthood , and then , how the sacraments can be duly administred , is easie to judge : these are the principall reasons , which make me believe that bishops are necessary for a church , and , i think , sufficient for me ( if i had no more ) not to give my consent for their expulsion out of england ; but i have another obligation , that to my particular , is a no lesse tie of conscience , which is , my coronation oath : now if ( as s. paul saith , rom. 14. 23. ) he that doubteth is damned if he eat , what can i expect , if i should , not onely give way knowingly to my peoples sinning , but likewise be perjured my selfe ? now consider , ought i not to keep my selfe from presumptuous sinnes ? and you know who sayes , what doth it profit a man , though he should gaine the whole world , and lose his owne soule ? wherefore my constant maintenance of episcopacy in england , ( where there was never any other government since christianity was in this kingdome ) methinks , should be rather commended than wondered at ; my conscience directing me to maintaine the lawes of the land ; which being onely my endeavours at this time , i desire to know of you , what warrant there is in the word of god , for subjects to endeavour to force their kings conscience ? or to make him alter lawes against his will ? if this be not my present case , i shall be glad to be mistaken ; or , if my judgment in religion hath been misled all this time , i shall be willing to be better directed : till when , you must excuse me , to be constant to the grounds which the king my father taught me . newcastle , may 29. 1646. c. r. for his majestie , mr. alexander henderson's first paper . sir , 1. it is your majesties royall goodness , and not my merit , that hath made your majesty to conceive any opinion of my abilities ; which ( were they worthy of the smallest testimony from your majesty ) ought in all duty to be improved for your majesties satisfaction . and this i intended in my coming here at this time , by a free , yet modest expression of the true motives and inducements which drew my mind to the dislike of episcopall government , wherein i was bred in my younger years at the university . like as i did apprehend that it was not your majesties purpose to have the question disputed by divines on both sides ; which i would never ( to the wronging of the cause ) have undertaken alone ; and which seldome or never hath proved an effectuall way , for finding of truth , or moving the minds of men to relinquish their former tenents , dum res transit à judicio in affectum ; witness the polemicks between the papists and us , and among our selves , about the matter now in hand , these many yeares past . 2. sir , when i consider your majesties education under the hands of such a father , the length of time wherein your majesty hath been setled in your principles of church-government ; the arguments which have continually in private and publique , especially of late at oxford , filled your majesties eares for the divine right thereof ; your coronation oath ; and divers state-reasons which your majesty doth not mention : i doe not wonder , nor think it any strange thing , that your majesty hath not at first given place to a contrary impression . i remember that the famous joannes picus mirandula proveth by irrefragable reasons ( which no rationall man will contradict ) that no man hath so much power over his own understanding , as to make himself believe what he will , or to think that to be true which his reason telleth him is false ; much lesse is it possible for any man to have his reason commanded by the will , or at the pleasure of another . 2. it is a true saying of the school-men , voluntas imperat intellectui quoad exercitium , non quoad specificationem , mine owne will , or the will of another may command me to thinke upon a matter ; but no will or command can constraine me to determine otherwise then my reason teacheth me . yet sir , i hope your majesty will acknowledge , ( for your paper professeth no lesse ) that according to the saying of ambrose , non est pudor ad meliora transire , it is neither sinne nor shame to change to the better : symmachus in one of his epistles ( i thinke to the emperour theodosius and valentinian ) alleageth all those motives , from education , from prescription of time , from worldly prosperity , and the flourishing condition of the roman empire , and from the lawes of the land , to perswade them to constancy in the ancient pagan profession of the romans , against the imbracing of the christian faith . the like reasons were used by the jewes for moses against christ ; and may be used both for popery and for the papacy it selfe , against the reformation of religion & church-government ; and therefore can have no more strength against the change now , than they had in former times . 3. but your majesty may perhaps say , that this is petitio principii , and nothing else but the begging of the question ; and i confesse it were so , if there can be no reasons brought for a reformation or change ; your majesty reverences the reformation of the church of england , as being done legally and orderly , and by those who had the reforming power : and i doe not deny , but it were to be wisht , that religion where there is need , were alwaies reformed in that manner , and by such power , and that it were not committed to the prelats , who have greatest need to be reformed themselves , not left to the multitude , whom god stirreth up when princes are negligent : thus did jacob reforme his owne family , moses destroyed the golden calfe , the good kings of judah reformed the church in their time : but that such reformation hath been perfect , i cannot admit . asa tooke away idolatry , but his reformation was not perfect ; for jehosaphat removed the high places , yet was not his reformation perfect , for it was hezekiah that brake the brasen serpent , and josiah destroyed the idol-temples , who therefore beareth this elogie , that like unto him there was no king before him . it is too well knowne that the reformation of k. henry 8. was most imperfect in the essentials of doctrine , worship , and government ; and although it proceeded by some degrees afterward , yet the government was never reformed , the head was changed , dominus non dominium ; and the whole limbs of the antichristian hierarchy retained , upon what snares and temptations of avarice and ambition , the great enchanters of the clergy , i need not expresse . it was a hard saying of romanorum malleus grosted of lincolne , that reformation was not to be expected , nisi in ore gladii cruentandi : yet this i may say , that the laodicean lukewarmnesse of reformation here , hath been matter of continued complaints to many of the godly in this kingdom ; occasion of more schisme and separation then ever was heard of in any other church ; and of unspeakable griefe and sorrow to other churches , which god did blesse with greater purity of reformation . the glory of this great worke we hope is reserved for your majesty , that to your comfort and everlasting fame the praise of godly josiah may be made yours ; which yet will be no dispraise to your royall father , or edward 6. or any other religious princes before you ; none of them having so faire an opportunity as is now by the supreme providence put into your royall hands . my soule trembleth to think and to foresee , what may be the event , if this opportunity be neglected . i will neither use the words of mordecay , esth. 4. 14. nor what savanarola told another charles , because i hope better things from your majesty . 4. to the argument brought by your majesty ( which i believe none of your doctors , had they been all about you , could more briefly and yet so fully and strongly have expressed ) [ that nothing was retained in this church but according as it was deduced from the apostles to the constant universall practise of the primitive church ; and that it was of such consequence , as by the alteration of it , we should deprive our selves of the lawfulnesse of priesthood ( i thinke your majesty meanes a lawfull ministry ) and then how the sacraments can be administred , is easie to judge . ] i humbly offer these considerations : first , what was not in the times of the apostles , cannot be deduced from them : we say in scotland , it cannot be brought but , that is not the ben ; but ( not to insist now in a litourgy , and things of that kind ) there was no such hierarchy , no such difference betwixt a bishop and a presbyter , in the times of the apostles , and therefore it cannot thence be deduced ; for i conceive it to be as cleare as if it were written with a sun-beame , that presbyter and bishop are to the apostles one and the same thing , no majority , no inequality or difference of office , power , or degree betwixt the one and the other , but a meer identity in all . 2. that the apostles intending to set downe the offices and officers of the church , and speaking so often of them , and of their gifts and duties , and that , not upon occasion , but of set purpose ; doe neither expresse nor imply any such pastor or bishop as hath power over other pastors , although it be true , that they have distinctly and particularly exprest the office , gifts , and duties of the meanest officers , such as deacons . 3. that in the ministery of the new testament there is a comely , beautifull , and divine order and subordination ; one kind of ministers both ordinary and extraordinary being placed in degree and dignity one before another , as the apostles first , the evangelists , pastors , doctors , &c. in their owne ranks : bnt we cannot find in offices of the same kind , that one hath majority of power , or priority of degree before another ; no apostle above other apostles ( unlesse in morall respects ) no evangelist above other evangelists ; of deacon above other deacons ; why then a pastor above other pastors ? in all other sorts of ministers ordinary and extraordinary a parity in their owne kind , only in the office of pastor an inequality . 4. that the whole power and all the parts of the ministry , which are commonly called , the power of order and jurisdiction , are by the apostles declared to be common to the presbyter and bishop : and that , mat. 15. 16 , 17. the gradation in matter of discipline or church censures , is from one , to two , or more ; and if he shall neglect them , tell it to the church ; he saith not , tell it to the bishop : there is no place left to a retrogradation from more to one , were he never so eminent . if these considerations doe not satisfie , your majesty may have more , or the same further cleared . 5. secondly , i doe humbly desire your majesty to take notice of the fallacy of that argument , from the practice of the primitive church , and the universall consent of the fathers . it is the argument of the papists for such traditions as no orthodox divine will admit . the law and testimony must be the rule . we can have no certaine knowledge of the practice universall of the church for many years ; eusebius the prime historian confesseth so much : the learned josephus scaliger testifieth , that from the end of the acts of the apostles untill a good time after , no certainty can be had from ecclesiasticall authors about church matters . it is true , diotrephes sought the preheminence in the apostles times , and the mystery of iniquity did then begin to work ; and no doubt in after-times some puffed up with ambition , and others overtaken with weaknesse , endevoured alteration of church government , but that all the learned and godly of those times consented to such a change as is talked of afterwards , will never be proved . 6. thirdly , i will never think that your majesty will deny the lawfulnesse of a ministery , and the due administration of the sacraments in the reformed churches , which have no diocesan bishops , sith it is not only manifest by scripture , but a great many of the strongest champions for episcopacy , doe confesse , that presbyters may ordaine other presbyters ; and that baptisme administred by a private person , wanting a publick calling , or by a midwife , and by a presbyter , although not ordained by a bishop , are not one and the same thing . 7. concerning the other argument taken from your majesties coronation oath ; i confesse , that both in the taking and keeping of an oath ( so sacred a thing is it , and so high a point of religion ) much tendernesse is required : and farre be it from us , who desire to observe our owne solemne oath , to presse your majesty with the violation of yours . yet sir , i will crave your leave , in all humblenesse and sincerity to lay before your majesties eyes this one thing , ( which perhaps might require a larger discourse ) that although no humane authority can dispense with an oath , quia religio juramenti pertinet ad forum divinum ; yet in some cases it cannot be denied but the obligation of an oath ceaseth : as when we swear homage and obedience to our lord and superiour , who afterwards ceaseth to be our lord and superiour ; for then the formall cause of the oath is taken away , and therefore the obligation ▪ sublata causa tollitur effectus ; sublato relato , tollitur correlatum . or when any oath hath a speciall reference to the benefit of those to whom i make the promise , if we have their desire or consent , the obligation ceaseth ; because all such oaths from the nature of the thing , doe include a condition . when the parliaments of both kingdomes , have covenanted for the abolishing or altering of a law , your majesties oath doth not binde you , or your conscience to the observing of it ; otherwise no lawes could be altered by the legislative power . this i conceive hath been the ground of removing episcopall government in scotland , and of removing the bishops out of the parliament of england . and i assure my selfe , that your majesty did not intend at the taking of your oath , that although both houses of parliament should find an alteration necessary , although ( which god almighty avert ) you should lose your selfe , and your posterity , and crowne , that you would never consent to the abolishing of such a law . if your majesty still object , that the matter of the oath is necessary & immutable ; that doth not belong to this , but to the former argument . 8. i have but one word more concerning your piety to your royall father , and teacher of happy memory , with which your majesty does conclude . your majesty knows that king james never admitted episcopacy upon divine right ; that his majesty did sweare and subscribe to the doctrine , worship , and discipline of the church of scotland ; that in the preface of the latter edition of basilicon doron , his majesty gives an honourable testimony to those that loved better the simplicity of the gospel , than the pomp and ceremonies of the church of england , and that he conceived the prelats to savour of the popish hierarchy , and that ( could his ghost now speake to your majesty ) he would not advise your majesty to run such hazards for those men who will chuse rather to pull downe your throne with their own ruine , than that they perish alone . the lord give your majesty a wise and discerning spirit to chuse that in time which is right . june 3. 1646. for mr. alex : henderson , a reply to his answer to my first paper , june 6. 1646. his majesties second paper . mr. henderson , if it had been the honour of the cause which i looked after , i would not have undertaken to put pen to paper , or singly to have maintained this argument against you ( whose answer to my former paper is sufficient , without other proofs , to justifie my opinion of your abilities ) but , it being meerly ( as you know ) for my particular satisfaction , i assure you that a disputation of well chosen divines , would be most effectuall ; and , i believe you cannot but grant , that i must best know , how my self may be best satisfied , for certainly my taste cannot be guided by another mans palate , and indeed i will say , that when it comes ( as it must ) to probations , i must have either persons or books to cleare the allegations , or it will be impossible to give me satisfaction : the fore-seeing of which , made me at first ( for the saving of time ) desire that some of those divines , which i gave you in a list , might be sent for . 2. concerning your second section , i were much too blame , if i should not submit to that saying of s. ambrose which you mention , for i would be unwilling to be found lesse ingenuous than you shew your selfe to be in the former part of it ; wherefore my reply is , that as i shall not be ashamed to change for the better , so i must see that it is better before i change , otherwise inconstancy in this were both sin and shame ; and remember ( what your selfe hath learnedly enforced ) that no mans reason can be commanded by another mans will . 3. your third begins , but i cannot say that it goes on , with that ingenuity , which the other did ; for i doe not understand , how those examples cited out of the old testament do any way prove that the way of reformation , which i commend , hath not been the most perfect , or , that any other is lawfull , those having been all by the regall authority ; and because henry the eights reformation was not perfect , will it prove that of k. edward and q. elizabeth to be unperfect ? i believe a new moode and figure must be found out to forme a syllogisme , whereby to prove that : but however , you are mistaken ; for , no man who truely understands the english reformation , will derive it from henry the eight , for he onely gave the occasion ; it was his sonne who began , and q. elizabeth that perfected it ; nor did i ever averre , that the beginning of any humane action was perfect , no more then you can prove that god hath ever given approbation to multitudes to reforme the negligence of princes : for , you know , there is much difference between permission , and approbation : but all this time , i find no reasons ( according to your promise ) for a reformation , or change ( i mean since q. elizabeths time . ) as for your romanorum malleus his saying ; it is well you come of it , with [ yet this i may say ] for it seems to imply , as if you neither ought nor would justifie that bloudy ungodly saying : and for your comparing our reformation here to the laodicean lukewarmnesse , proved by complaints , grievings , &c. all that doth , and but unhandsomely , petere principium ; nor can generalls satisfie me ; for , you must first prove , that those men had reason to complaine , those churches to be grieved , and how we were truely the causers of this schisme and separation : as for those words which you will not use , i will not answer . 4. here indeed you truly repeat the first of my two maine arguments ; but by your favour , you take ( as i conceive ) a wrong way to convince me ; it is i must make good the affirmative , for i believe a negative cannot be proved ; instead of which , if you had made appear the practice of the presbyterian government in the primitive times , you had done much ; for i doe averre , that this government was never practised before calvin's time ; the affirmative of which , i leave you to prove ; my taske , being to shew the lawfulnesse , and succession of episcopacy , and , as i believe , the necessity of it : for doing whereof , i must have such books as i shall call for ; which possibly upon perusall , may , one way or other , give me satisfaction ; but i cannot absolutely promise it without the assistance of some learned man , whom i can trust , to find out all such citations , as i have use of : wherefore blame me not , if time be unnecessarily lost . 5. now for the fallaciousnesse of my argument ( to my knowledge ) it was never my practice , nor doe i confesse to have begun now ; for , if the practice of the primitive church , and the universal consent of the fathers , be not a convincing argument , when the interpretation of scripture is doubtfull , i know nothing ; for , if this be not , then of necessity the interpretation of private spirits must be admitted : the which contradicts saint peter , 2 pet. 1. 20. is the mother of all sects , and will ( if not prevented ) bring these kingdomes into confusion : and to say , that an argument is ill , because the papists use it , or , that such a thing is good , because it is the custome of some of the reformed churches ; cannot weigh with me , untill you prove , these to be infallible , or that to maintaine no truth : and how diotrephes ambition ( who directly opposed the apostle s. john ) can be an argument against episcopacy , i doe not understand . 6. when i am made a judge over the reformed churches , then , and not before , will i censure their actions ; as you must prove , before i confesse it , that presbyters without a bishop , may lawfully ordain other presbyters : and as for the administration of baptisme , as i thinke none will say , that a woman can lawfully , or duely administer it , though when done , it be valid ; so none ought to doe it , but a lawfull presbyter , whom you cannot deny , but to be absolutely necessary for the sacrament of the eucharist . 7. you make a learned succinct discourse of oathes in generall , and their severall obligations , to which i fully agree ; intending , in the particular now in question , to be guided by your owne rule , which is [ when any oath hath a speciall reference to the benefit of those to whom i make the promise , if we have their desire , or consent , the obligation ceaseth ] now , it must be known , to whom this oath hath reference , and to whose benefit ? the answer is cleare , onely to the church of england ; as by the record will be plainly made appeare ; and you much mistake in alleaging , that the two houses of parliament ( especially as they are now constituted ) can have this disobligatory power , for , ( besides that they are not named in it ) i am confident to make it clearly appeare to you , that this church never did submit , nor was subordinate to them ; and that it was onely the king and clergy , who made the reformation , the parliament meerly serving to help to give the civill sanction : all this being proved ( of which i make no question ) it must necessarily follow , that it is onely the church of england ( in whose favour i took this oath ) that can release me from it : wherefore when the church of england ( being lawfully assembled ) shall declare that i am free , then , and not before , i shall esteem my self so . 8. to your last , concerning the king my father , of happy and famous memory , both for his piety and learning ; i must tell you , that i had the happinesse , to know him much better than you ; wherefore i desire you , not to be too confident , in the knowledge of his opinions ; for , i dare say , should his ghost now speake , he would tell you , that a bloudy reformation was never lawfull , as not warranted by gods word , and that preces & lacrymae sunt arma ecclesiae . 9. to conclude , having replied to all your paper , i cannot but observe to you , that you have given me no answer to my last quaere ; it may be you are ( as chaucer sayes ) like the people of england , what they not like , they never understand : but in earnest , that question is so pertinent to the purpose in hand , that it will much serve for my satisfaction ; and besides it may be usefull for other things . newcastle , june 6. 1646. c. r. for his majestie . mr. alexander henderson's second paper . sir , the smaller the encouragements be , in relation to the successe , ( which how small they are , your majesty well knowes : ) the more apparent , and , i hope , the more acceptable will my obedience be , in that which in all humility i now go about , at your majesties command : yet while i consider , that the way of man is not in himselfe , nor is it in man that walketh , to direct his owne steps ; and when i remember how many supplications , with strong crying and tears , have been openly and in secret offered up in your majesties behalfe , unto god that heareth prayer , i have no reason to despaire of a blessed successe . 1. i have been averse , from a disputation of divines , 1. for saving of time ; which the present exigence & extremity of affairs , make more then ordinarily pretious ; while archimedes at syracuse was drawing his figures & circlings in the sand , marcellus interupted his demonstration . 2. because the common result of disputes of this kind , answerable to the prejudicate opinions of the parties , is rather victory then verity ; while tanquam tentativi dialectici , they study more to overcome their adverse party , than to be overcome of truth , although this be the most glorious victory . 3. when i was commanded to come hither , no such thing was proposed to me , nor expected by me . i never judged so meanly of the cause , nor so highly of my selfe , as to venture it upon such weaknesse . much more might be spoken to this purpose ; but i forbeare . 2. i will not further trouble your majesty with that which is contained in the second section , hoping that your majesty will no more insist upon education , prescription of time , &c. which are sufficient to prevent admiration , but ( which your majesty acknowledges ) must give place to reason , and are no sure ground of resolution of our faith , in any point to be believed : although it be true that the most part of men make these and the like , to be the ground and rule of their faith : an evidence , that their faith is not a divine faith , but an humane credulity . 3. concerning reformation of religion in the third section ; i had need of a preface to so thorny a theame , as your majesty hath brought me upon ; 1. for the reforming power ; it is conceived , when a generall defection , like a deluge , hath covered the whole face of the church , so that scarcely the tops of the mountains doe appeare , a generall councell is necessary ; but , because that can hardly be obtained , severall kingdomes ( which we see was done , at the time of the reformation ) are to reforme themselves , and that by the authority of their prince , and magistrates : if the prince or supreme magistrate , be unwilling , then may the inferior magistrate , and the people , being before rightly , informed in the grounds of religion , lawfully reforme , within their owne sphere ; and if the light shine upon all , or the major part , they may , after all other meanes assayed , make a publique reformation . this , before this time , i never wrote or spoke ; yet the maintainers of this doctrine , conceive that they are able to make it good . but , sir , were i worthy to give advice to your majesty , or to the kings and supreme powers on earth , my humble opinion would be , that they should draw the minds , tongues , and pens of the learned , to dispute about other matter , then the power or prerogative of kings and princes ; and in this kind , your majesty hath suffered and lost more , then will easily be restored to your selfe or your posterity , for a long time . it is not denied but the prime reforming power , is in kings and princes , quibus — deficientibus , it comes to the inferior magistrate , quibus deficientibus , it descendeth to the body of the people ; supposing that there is a necessity of reformation , and that by no meanes it can be obtained of their superiors . it is true that such a reformation , is more imperfect , in respect of the instruments , and manner of procedure ; yet for the most part , more pure and perfect in relation to the effect and product . and for this end did i cite the examples of old of reformation by regall authority ; of which none was perfect , in the second way of perfection , except that of josiah . concerning the saying of grostead , whom the cardinals at rome confest to be a more godly man , than any of themselves ; it was his complaint , and prediction of what was likely to ensue , not his desire , or election , if reformation could have been obtained , in the ordinary way . i might bring two unpartiall witnesses , jewel and bilson , both famous english bishops , to prove that the tumults and troubles raised in scotland , at the time of reformation , were to be imputed to the papists opposing of the reformation , both of doctrine and discipline , as an hereticall innovation ; and not to be ascribed to the nobility , or people , who under god , were the instruments of it ; intending and seeking nothing , but the purging out of errour , and setling of the truth . 2. concerning the reformation of the church of england , i conceive , whether it was begun or not , in k. henry the 8. time , it was not finished by q. elizabeth : the father stirred the humors of the diseased church ; but neither the sonne nor the daughter ( although we have great reason to blesse god for both ) did purge them out perfectly : this perfection is yet reserved for your majesty : where it is said , that all this time i bring no reasons , for a further change ; the fourth section , of my last paper , hath many hints of reasons against episcopall government , with an offer of more , or clearing of those ; which your majesty hath not thought fit to take notice of . and learned men , have observed many defects in that reformation : as that the government of the church of england , ( for about this is the question now ) is not builded upon the foundation of christ and the apostles ; which they , at least cannot deny , who professe church-government to be mutable and ambulatory ; and such were the greater part of arch-bishops and bishops in england , contenting themselves with the constitutions of the church , and the authority and munificence of princes , till of late , that some few have pleaded it to be jure divino : that , the english reformation hath not perfectly purged out the roman leven ; which is one of the reasons that have given ground to the comparing of this church to the church of laodicaea , as being neither hot nor cold , neither popish nor reformed , but of a lukewarme temper , betwixt the two : that it hath depraved the discipline of the church , by conforming of it to the civil policy : that it hath added many church offices , higher & lower , unto those instituted by the son of god ; which is as unlawfull as to take away offices warranted by the divine institution : and other the like , which have moved some to apply this saying to the church of england , multi ad perfectionem pervenirent , nisi jam se pervenisse crederent . 4. in my answer to the first of your majesties many arguments , i brought a breviate of some reasons to prove , that a bishop and presbyter are one and the same in scripture : from which , by necessary consequence , i did inferre the negative ; therefore , no difference in scripture between a bishop and a presbyter ; the one name signifying , industriam curiae pastoralis ; the other , sapientiae maturitatem , saith beda . and whereas your majesty averres , that presbyterian government was never practised , before calvin's time ; your majesty knows , the common objection of the papists , against the reformed churches ; where was your church , your reformation , your doctrine , before luther's time ? one part of the common answer is , that it was from the beginning , and is to be found in scripture : the same i affirme of presbyterian government : and for proving of this , the assembly of divines at westminster , have made manifest , that the primitive christian church at jerusalem was governed by a presbytery : while they shew , 1. that that the church of jerusalem consisted of more congregations than one , from the multitude of believers , from the many apostles , and other preachers in that church , and from the diversity of languages among the believers . 2. that all these congregations , were under one presbyteriall government , because they were , for government , one church , acts 11. 22 , 26. and because that church was governed by elders , acts 11. 30. which were elders of that church , and did meet together for acts of government : and the apostles themselves , in that meeting , acts 15. acted not as apostles , but as elders ; stating the question , debating it , in the ordinary way of disputation ; and having , by search of scripture , found the will of god , they conclude , it seemed good to the holy ghost and us : which in the judgement of the learned , may be spoken by any assembly , upon like evidence of scripture . the like presbyterian government had place in the churches of corinth , ephesus , thessalonica , &c. in the times of the apostles ; and after them , for many years , when one of the presbytery was made episcopus praeses , even then , communi presbyterorum confilio , ecclesiae gubernabantur , saith jerome ; & episcopos magis consuetudine , quam dispositionis divinae veritate , presbyteris esse majores , & in commune debere ecclesiam regere . 5. farre be it from me to think such a thought , as that your majesty did intend any fallacy , in your other maine argument , from antiquity . as we are to distinguish between intentio operantis , & conditio operis ; so may we in this case consider the difference between intentio argumentantis , & conditio argumenti . and where your majesty argues , that , if your opinion be not admitted , we will be forced to give place to the interpretation of private spirits , which is contrary to the doctrine of the apostle peter , and will prove to be of dangerous consequence ; i humbly offer to be considered by your majesty , what some of chief note among the papists themselves have taught us , that the interpretation of scriptures , and the spirits whence they proceed , may be called private , in a threefold sense . 1. ratione personae , if the interpreter be of a private condition . 2. ratione modi & medii , when persons , although not private , use not the publique meanes which are necessary for finding out the truth , but follow their owne fancies . 3. ratione finis , when the interpretation is not proposed as authenticall to bind others , but is intended onely for our owne private satisfaction . the first is not to be despised ; the second is to be exploded , and is condemned by the apostle peter ; the third ought not to be censured : but that interpretation which is authenticall , and of supreme authority , which even mans conscience is bound to yeild unto , is of an higher nature . and , although the generall councell should resolve it , and the consent of the fathers should be had unto it , yet there must alwaies be place left to the judgment of discretion , as davenant , late bishop of salisbury , beside divers others , hath learnedly made appeare in his booke , de judice controversiarum ; where also the power of kings in matter of religion , is solidly and unpartially determined . two words onely i adde ; one is , that notwithstanding all that is pretended from antiquity , a bishop having sole power of ordination and jurisdiction , will never be found in prime antiquity . the other is , that many of the fathers did , unwittingly , bring forth that anti-christ , which was conceived in the times of the apostles , and therefore are incompetent judges in the question of hierarchy . and upon the other part , the lights of the christian church , at , and since the beginning of the reformation , have discovered many secrets , concerning the anti-christ and his hierarchy , which were not knowne to former ages : and diverse of the learned , in the roman church , have not feared to pronounce , that , whosoever denies the true and literall sense of many texts of scripture , to have been found out in this last age , is unthankfull to god , who hath so plentifully powred forth his spirit upon the children of this generation , and ungratefull towards those men , who with so great paines , so happy successe , & so much benefit to gods church , have travailed therein : this might be instanced in many places of scripture : i wind together diotrephes and the mystery of iniquity , the one , as an old example of church-ambition , which was also too palpable in the apostles themselves ; and the other as a cover of ambition , afterwards discovered ; which two , brought forth the great mystery of the papacy at last . 6. although your majesty be not made a judge of the reformed churches , yet you so farre censure them , and their actions , as , without bishops , in your judgment , they cannot have a lawfull ministery , nor a due administration of the sacraments : against which dangerous & destructive opinion , i did alledge what i supposed , your majesty would not have denied , 1. that presbyters without a bishop , may ordaine other presbyters . 2. that baptisme , administred by such a presbyter , is another thing than baptisme administred by a private person , or by a midwife . of the first your majesty calls for proofe : i told before that in scripture , it is manifest , 1 tim. 4. 14. neglect nor the gift that is in thee , which was given thee by the prophesie , with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery ; so it is in the english translation : and the word presbytery , so often as it is used in the new testament , alwaies signifies the persons , and not the office . and although the offices of bishop and presbyter were distinct ; yet doth not the presbyter derive his power of order , from the bishop . the evangelists were inferiour to the apostles ; yet had they their power , not from the apostles , but from christ : the same i affirme of the 70 disciples , who had their power immediately from christ , no lesse than the apostles had theirs . it may upon better reason be averred , that the bishops have their power from the pope , than that presbyters have their power from the prelats . it is true , jerome saith , quid facit , exceptâ ordinatione episcopus , quod non facit presbyter ; but in the same place he proves from scripture , that episcopus & presbyter are one and the same ; and therefore when he appropriates ordination to the bishop , he speaketh of the degenerated custome of his time . 2. concerning baptisme , a private person may perform the external action and rites , both of it and of the eucharist ; yet is neither of the two a sacrament , or hath any efficacy , unlesse it be done by him that is lawfully called thereunto , or by a person made publique and clothed with authority by ordination . this errour in the matter of baptisme , is begot by another errour , of the absolute necessity of baptisme . 7. to that which hath been said , concerning your majesties oath , i shall adde nothing ; not being willing to enter upon the question , of the subordination of the church to the civill power , whether to king , or parliament , or both , and to either of them , in their owne place . such an headship as the kings of england hath claimed , and such a supremacy as the houses of parliament crave , with appeales from the supreme ecclesiasticall judicature to them as set over the church , in the same line of subordination , i doe utterly disclaime upon such reasons as give my selfe satisfaction , although no man shall be more willing to submit to civill powers , each one in their owne place ; and more unwilling to make any trouble than my selfe : onely concerning the application of the generalls of an oath , to the particular case now in hand ; under favor , i conceive not how the clergy of the church of england , is , or ought to be principally intended , in your oath : for , although they were esteemed to be the representative church , yet even that is for the benefit of the church collective , salus populi , being suprema lex , and to be principally intended . your majesty knowes it was so in the church of scotland , where the like alteration was made . and , if nothing of this kind can be done without the consent of the clergy , what reformation can be expected in france , or spaine , or rome it selfe ? it is not to be expected , that the pope , or prelate will consent to their owne ruine . 8. i will not presume upon any secret knowledge of the opinions held by the king , your majesties father , of famous memory ; they being much better known to your majesty , i did onely produce , what was profest by him , before the world : and although prayers and tears be the arms of the church ; yet , it is neither acceptable to god , nor conducible for kings and princes , to force the church to put on these armes : nor could i ever heare a reason , why a necessary defensive warre against unjust violence is unlawfull , although it be joyned with offence and invasion which is intended for defence , but so that armes are layed down when the offensive warre ceaseth : by which it doth appeare , that the warre on the other side , was , in the nature thereof , defensive . 9. concerning the forcing of conscience , which i pretermitted in my other paper , i am forced now , but without forcing of my conscience , to speake of . our conscience may be said to be forced ; either by our selves , or by others . by our selves , 1. when we stop the eare of our conscience and will not hearken , or give place to information , resolving obstinately , ne si persuaseris , persuadebis ; which is no lesse then a resisting of the holy ghost , and the hardning of our hearts . 2. or when we stop the mouth , and suppresse the clamours of our conscience ; resolving rather to suffer the worme to gnaw , and the fire to burne inwardly , then to make profession of that we are convinced to be truth . 3. or when we seare our conscience , as with an hot iron , that it becometh senslesse ; which is the punishment of the former : unto which is opposed , the truly tender conscience ; such as josiah had , 2 king. 22. 19. againe , 1. our conscience is said to be forced by others , when they obtrude upon us what is in it self evill and unlawfull ; which if we admit , against our own conscience , we sin , two waies ; one is , by doing that which is in it self evill and unlawfull ; the other is , by doing it against a dictate of conscience , which is a contempt of god , whose vicegerent it is . 2. or when others urge us to do that which is in it selfe good , or may lawfully be done , but through error of conscience , we judge it to be evill and unlawfull : in this case , if we do not that which is prest upon us , we sin , because the thing is good and lawfull : and if we doe it , we sin , because we do against our conscience . which in this case bindeth , but obligeth not : and yet there is a way to escape out of this labyrinth , it being repugnant to the equity of the will of god to lay a necessity of sinning upon any man : the onely way is , to lay aside such a conscience , it being a part of the old man , which we are commanded to put off ; otherwise , we being sufficiently informed , and yet cleaving to our old error , we rather doe violence to our conscience our selves than suffer violence from others . the application , for answering the quaere , i leave to your majesty . newcastle , june 17. 1646. for mr. alex : henderson . in reply to his second paper , june 22. 1646. his majesties third paper . 1. it were arrogance , besides losse of time , in me to vie preambles with you ; for , it is truth i seek , and neither praise , nor victory ; wherefore i shall onely insist upon those things which are meerly necessary to my owne satisfaction ; in order to which , i desired the assistance of some divines ; whereupon i will insist no further , save onely to wish , that you may not ( as i have knowne many men doe ) lose time by being mistaken in the way to save it , wherein i have onely sought to disburden my selfe , but to lay no blame upon you , and so i leave it . 2. nor will i say more of the second then this , that i am glad you have so well approved of what i have said concerning my education and reason ; but then remember , that another mans will , is at least , as weake a ground , to build my faith upon , as my former education . 3. in this there are two points ; first , concerning the reforming power , then anent the english reformation ; for the first , i confesse you now speak clearly , which before you did but darkly mention , wherein i shall mainly differ with you , untill you shall shew me better reason : yet thus farre i will goe along with you , that when a generall councell cannot be had , severall kingdomes may reforme themselves , ( which is learnedly and fully proved by the late archbishop of canterbury in his disputation against fisher ) but , that the inferior magistrates or people ( take it which way you will ) have this power , i utterly deny ; for which , by your favour , you have yet made no sufficient proofe , to my judgement : indeed , if you could have brought , or can bring authority of scripture , for this opinion , i would and will , yet , with all reverence submit ; but as for your examples , out of the old testament , in my mind , they rather make for , than against me , all those reformations being made by kings ; and it is a good probable ( though i will not say convincing ) argument , that if god would have approved of a popular reforming way , there were kings of judah & israel sufficiently negligent and ill to have made such examples by ; but by the contrary , the 16. chap. of numbers shewes clearly , how god disapproves of such courses : but i forget this assertion is to be proved by you ; yet i may put you in the way , wherefore let me tell you that this pretended power in the people , must ( as all others ) either be directly , or else declaratorily by approbation , given by god ; which , how soon you can doe , i submit ; otherwise you prove nothing : for the citing of private mens opinions ( more then as they concurre with the generall consent of the church in their time ) weighs little with me , it being too well known , that rebels never wanted writers to maintain their unjust actions ; and though i much reverence bishop jewels memory , i never thought him infallible ; for bilson i remember well what opinion the king my father had of him for those opinions , and how he shewed him some favour in hope of his recantation , ( as his good nature made him do many things of that kind ) but whether he did , or not , i cannot say : to conclude this point , untill you shall prove this position by the word of god , ( as i will regall authority ) i shall think all popular reformation , little better than rebellions ; for , i hold that no authority is lawfull but that which is either directly given , or at least , approved by god . 2ly . concerning the english reformation , the first reason you bring why q. elizabeth did not finish it , is , because she tooke not away episcopacy , the hits of reason against which government , you say , i take no notice of ; now i thought it was sufficient notice , yea and answer too , when i told you , a negative ( as i conceived ) could not be proved , and that it was for me to prove the affirmative ; which i shall either doe , or yeild the argument , as soone as i shall be assisted with bookes , or such men of my opinion , who , like you , have a library in their braine : and so i must leave this particular , untill i be furnished with means to put it to an issue ; which had been sooner done , if i could have had my will : indeed your second well proved , is most sufficient , which is , that the english church government is not builded upon the foundation of christ and the apostles ; but i conceive your probation of this , doubly defective ; for first , albeit our archbishops and bishops should have professed church-government to be mutable & ambulatory , i conceive it not sufficient to prove your assertion : and secondly , i am confident you cannot prove , that most of them maintained this walking position , ( for some particulars must not conclude the generall ) for which you must find much better arguments than their being content with the constitution of the church , and the authority and munificence of princes , or you will fall extreamly short : as for the retaining of the roman leven , you must prove it , as well as say it , else you say little : but that the conforming of the church discipline to the civill policy , should be a depraving of it , i absolutely deny ; for i averre , that without it , the church can neither flourish , nor be happy : and for your last instance , you shall doe well to shew the prohibition of our saviour against addition of more officers in the church than he named ; and yet in one sense i doe not conceive that the church of england hath added any ; for , an archbishop is onely a distinction for order of government , not a new officer , and so of the rest ; and of this kind , i believe there are diverse now in scotland which you will not condemne , as the moderators of assemblies , and others . 4. where you find a bishop , and presbyter , in scripture , to be one and the same ( which i deny to be alwaies so ) it is in the apostles time ; now i think to prove the order of bishops succeeded that of the apostles , and that the name was chiefly altered , in reverence to those who were immediately chosen by our saviour , ( albeit , in their time , they caused diverse to be called so , as barnabas and others ) so that , i believe , this argument makes little for you : as for your proofe of the antiquity of presbyterian government , it is well that the assembly of divines at westminster can doe more then eusebius could , and i shal believe , when i see it ; for , your former paper affirmes , that those times were very dark for matter of fact , and will be so still for me if there be no clearer arguments to prove it , than those you mention : for , because there were diverse congregations in jerusalem ; ergo , what ? are there not divers parishes in one diocesse ? ( your two first i answer but as one argument ) and because the apostles met with those of the inferiour orders , for acts of government ; what then ? even so in these times doe the deanes and chapters , and many times those of the inferiour clergy assist the bishops ; but i hope you will not pretend to say , that there was an equality between the apostles and other presbyters , which not being , doth ( in my judgment ) quite invalidate these arguments : and if you can say no more for the churches of corinth , ephesus , thessalonica , &c. than you have for jerusalem , it will gaine no ground on me : as for saint jerome , it is well knowne that he was no great friend to bishops , as being none himselfe , yet take him altogether , and you will find that he makes a clear distinction between a bishop and a presbyter , as your self confesses ; but the truth is , he was angry with those who maintained deacons to be equall to presbyters . 5. i am well satisfied with the explanation of your meaning concerning the word fallacy , though i think to have had reason for saying what i did : but by your favour , i doe not conceive that you have answered the strength of my argument , for when you and i differ upon the interpretation of scripture , and i appeale to the practise of the primitive church , and the universall consent of the fathers , to be judge between us , methinks you should either find a fitter , or submit to what i offer ; neither of which ( to my understanding ) you have yet done ; nor have you shewne how , waving those judges i appeale unto , the mischief , of the interpretation by private spirits , can be prevented . indeed , if i cannot prove by antiquity , that ordination and jurisdiction belongs to bishops , ( thereby cleerly distinguishing them from other presbyters ) i shall then begin to misdoubt many of my former foundations ; ( as for bishop davenant , he is none of those , to whom i have appealed , or will submit unto ) but for the exception you take to fathers , i take it to be a begging of the question ; as likewise those great discoveries of secrets , not knowne to former ages , i shall call new-invented fancies , untill particularly you shall prove the contrary ; and for your roman authours , it is no great wonder for them to seek shifts whereby to maintaine novelties , as well as the puritans : as for church-ambition , it doth not at all terminate , in seeking to be pope ; for , i take it to be no point of humility to endeavour to be independent of kings , it being possible , that papacy in a multitude may be as dangerous as in one . 6. as i am no judge over the reformed churches , so neither doe i censure them , for many things may be avowable upon necessity , which otherwaies are unlawfull ; but know , once for all , that i esteeme nothing the better because it is done by such a particular church ( though it were by the church of england , which i avow most to reverence ) but i esteem that church most , which comes nearest to the purity of the primitive doctrine and discipline , as i believe this doth . now concerning ordination , i bad you prove that presbyters without a bishop might lawfully ordaine , which yet i conceive you have not done ; for , 2 tim. 1. 6. it is evident , that saint paul was at timothies ordination ; and albeit that all the seventy had their power immediately from christ , yet it is as evident that our saviour made a clear distinction between the twelve apostles and the rest of the disciples , which is set downe by three of the evangelists , whereof s. marke calls it an ordination , mark 3. 15. & s. luke sayes , and of them he chose twelve , &c. luke 6. 13. onely s. matthew doth but barely enumerate them by their name of distinction , mat. 10. 1. i suppose out of modesty , himselfe being one , and the other two being none , are more particular . for the administration of baptisme , giving , but not granting what you say , it makes more for me , than you : but i will not engage upon new questions , not necessary for my purpose . 7. for my oath , you doe well not to enter upon those questions you mention ; and you had done as well to have omitted your instance ; but , out of discretion , i desire you to collect your answer out of the last section ; and for your argument , though the intention of my oath be for the good of the church collective , therefore can i be dispensed withall by others than the representative body ? certainly no more than the people can dispense with me for any oaths i took in their favours , without the two houses of parliament ; as for future reformations , i will only tell you that incommodum non solvit argumentum . 8. for the king my fathers opinion , if it were not to spend time ( as i believe ) needlesly , i could prove by living and written testimonies , all , and more , then i have said of him , for his perswasion in these points which i now maintain ; and for your defensive war , as i do acknowledge it a great sin for any king to oppresse the church , so i hold it absolutely unlawfull for subjects ( upon any pretence whatsoever ) to make war ( though defensive ) against their lawfull soveraigne ; against which no less proofs will make me yeild but gods word ; and let me tell you , that upon such points as these , instances , as well as comparisons , are odious . 9. lastly , you mistake the quaere in my first paper to which this pretends to answer ; for my question was not concerning force of arguments ( for i never doubted the lawfulnesse of it ) but force of armes , to which , i conceive , it sayes little or nothing , unlesse ( after my example ) you refer me to the former section ; that which it doth , is meerly the asking of the question , after a fine discourse of the several wayes of perswading rather than forcing of conscience : i close up this paper , desiring you to take notice , that there is none of these sections but i could have enlarged to many more lines , some to whole pages ; yet i chose to be thus brief , knowing you will understand more by a word than others by a long discourse ; trusting likewise to your ingenuity , that reason epitomized , will weigh as much with you as if it were at large . june 22. 1646. c. r. for his majestie , concerning the authority of the fathers , and practice of the church . july 2. 1646. mr. alex : henderson's third paper . having in my former papers pressed the steps of your majesties propositions , and finding by your majesties last paper , controversies to be multiplyed , ( i believe ) beyond your majesties intentions in the beginning ; as concerning the reforming power : the reformation of the church of england ; the difference betwixt a bishop and a presbyter ; the warrants of presbyterian government ; the authority of interpreting scripture ; the taking and keeping of publique oathes ; the forcing of conscience ; and many other inferior and subordinate questions , which are branches of those maine controversies : all which in a satisfactory manner to determine in few words , i leave to more presuming spirits , who either see no knots of difficulties , or can find a way rather to cut them assunder , than to unloose them : yet will i not use any tergiversation ; nor doe i decline to offer my humble opinion with the reasons thereof , in the owne time concerning each of them ; which in obedience to your majesties command , i have begun to doe alalready . onely sir , by your majesties favourable permission , for the greater expedition , and that the present velitations may be brought to some issue , i am bold to entreat that the method may be a little altered , and i may have leave now to begin at a principle , and that which should have been , inter precognita ; i meane the rule , by which we are to proceed , and to determine the present controversie of church policy ; without which we will be led into a labyrinth , and want a thred to wind us out againe . in your majesties first paper , the universall custome of the primitive church , is conceived to be the rule . in the second paper , section the 5. the practise of the primitive church , and the universall consent of the fathers , is made a convincing argument , when the interpretation of scripture is doubtfull ; in your third paper , sect. 5. the practice of the primitive church , and the universall consent of the fathers , is made judge ; and i know , that nothing is more ordinary in this question , then to alleage antiquity , perpetuall succession , universall consent of the fathers , and the universall practise of the primitive church , according to the rule of augustine , quod universa tenet ecclesia , nec à consilio institutum , sed semper retentum est , non , nisi authoritate apostolicâ , traditum rectissime creditur . there is in this argument at the first view , so much appearance of reason , that it may much worke upon a modest mind ; yet being well examined and rightly weighed it will be found to be of no great weight ; for beside that the minor will never be made good in the behalfe of a diocaesan bishop , having sole power of ordination and jurisdiction , there being a multitude of fathers , who maintaine that bishop and presbyter are of one and the same order ; i shall humbly offer some few considerations about the major , because it hath been an inlet to many dangerous errors , and hath proved a mighty hinderance and obstruction to reformation of religion . 1. first , i desire it may be considered , that whiles some make two rules for defining controversies ; the word of god and antiquity , ( which they will have to be received with equall veneration ) or , as the papists call them , canonicall authority , and catholicall tradition ; and others , make scripture to be the onely rule , and antiquity the authentick interpreter ; the latter of the two seemes to me to be the greater errour : because the first setteth up a parallel , in the same degree with scripture ; but this would create a superior , in a higher degree above scripture : for the interpretation of the fathers shall be the {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , and accounted the very cause and reason for which we conceive and believe such a place of scripture to have such a sence ; and thus , men shall have dominion over our faith , against 2 cor. 1. 24. our faith shall stand in the wisdome of man , and not in the power of god , 1 cor. 2. 5. and scripture shall be of private interpretation ; for the prophesie came not of old by the will of man , 2 pet. 1. 20 , 22. nisi homini deus placuerit , deus non erit , homo jam deo propitius esse debebit , saith tertullian . 2. that scripture cannot be authentically interpreted but by scripture , is manifest from scripture : the levites gave the sense of the law by no other means , but by scripture it self , neh. 8. 8. our saviour for example to us , gave the true sense of scripture , against the depravations of satan , by comparing scripture with scripture , and not by alleaging any testimonies out of the rabbins , mat. 4. and the apostles , in their epistles ; used no other help , but the diligent comparing of propheticall writings ; like as the apostle peter , will have us to compare the clearer light of the apostles , with the more obscure light of the prophets , 2 pet. 1. 19. and when we betake our selves to the fathers , we have need to take heed , that , with the papists , we accuse not the scriptures of obscurity or imperfection . 3. the fathers themselves ( as they are cited by protestant writers ) hold this conclusion , that scripture is not to be interpreted , but by scripture it selfe : to this purpose , amongst many other testimonies , they bring the saying of tertullian , surge veritas , ipsa scripturas tuas interpretare , quam consuetudo non novit ; nam si noscet , non esset : if it knew scripture , it would be ashamed of it selfe , and cease to be any more . 4. that some errors have been received , and continued for a long time , in the church : the error of free will beginning at justin martyr , continued till the time of reformation , although it was rejected by augustine , as the divine right of episcopacy was opposed by others . the error about the vision of god , that the souls of the saints departed , see not the face of god , till the judgment of the great day , was held by universall consent : the same may be said of the error of the millenaryes ; and , which more nearly toucheth upon the present question , the auncients erred grosly about the antichrist and mystery of iniquity , which did begin to worke in the dayes of the apostles . many other instances might be brought to prove the universall practise of the church , as were not warranted by the apostles ; as in the rites of baptisme and prayer ; and the forming up and drawing together of the articles of that creed , that is called symbolum apostolicum ; the observation of many feasts and fasts both aniversary and weekly . 5. that it is not a matter so incredible , or impossible , as some would have it appeare to be , for the primitive church to have made a sudden defection from the apostolicall purity : the people of israel , in the short time of moses his absence on the mount , turned aside quickly , and fell into horrible idolatry , exod. 32. soone after the death of josuah , and the elders that had seen the great works , which the lord had done for israel , there arose another generation after them , which did evill in the sight of the lord , judg. 2. & 7. soone after the building of the temple , and setling of religion by david and salomon , the worship of god was defiled with idolatry : when rehoboam had established the kingdome , he forsook the law of the lord , and all israel with him , 2 chron. 12. 1. and the apostle sayes to the galatians , gal. 1. 6. i marvell that you are so soone removed unto another gospel : why then shall we thinke it strange , that in the matter of discipline , there should be a sudden defection , especially it being begun in the time of the apostles ? i know it is a common opinion , but i believe there be no strong reasons for it , that the church which was nearest the times of the apostles was the most pure and perfect church . 6. that it is impossible to come to the knowledge of the universall consent and practice of the primitive church : for many of the fathers wrote nothing at all , many of their writings are perished , ( it may be that both of these have dissented from the rest ) many of the writings which we have under their names are supposititius , & counterfeit , especially about episcopacy which was the foundation of papall primacy : the rule of augustine afore-mentioned doth too much favour traditions , and is not to be admitted , without cautions and exceptions . many the like considerations may be added ; but these may be sufficient to prove , that the unanimous consent of the fathers , and the universall practice of the primitive church , is no sure ground of authenticall interpretation of scripture . i remember of a grave divine in scotland , much honoured by k. james of happy memory , who did often professe that he did learne more of one page of john calvin , then of a whole treatise of augustine : nor can there be any good reason , ( many there be against it ) why the ancients should be so farre preferred to the moderne doctors of the reformed churches , and the one in a manner deified , and the other vilified : it is but a poor reason that some give , fama miratrix senioris aevi , and is abundantly answered by the apologist for divine providence . if your majesty be still unsatisfied concerning the rule , i know not to what purpose i should proceed or trouble your majesty any more . newcastle , july 2. 1646. for mr. alex : henderson , july 3. 1646. his majesties fourth paper . i shall very willingly follow the method you have begun in your third paper ; but i doe not conceive , that my last paper multiplies more controversies than my first gave accasion for ; having been so far from augmenting the heads of our disputation , that i have omitted the answering many things , in both your papers , expresly to avoid raising of new and needlesse questions ; desiring to have only so many debated , as are simply necessary to shew , whether , or not , i may with a safe conscience give way to the alteration of church-government in england ; and indeed i like very well , to begin with the setling of the rule , by which we are to proceed , and determine the present controversie ; to which purpose ( as i conceive ) my third paper shewes you an excellent way ; for there , i offer you a judge between us , or desire you to finde out a better , which , to my judgement , you have not yet done , ( though you have sought to invalidate mine ) for , if you understand to have offered the scripture , though no man shall pay more reverence , nor submit more humbly to it , than my self ; yet we must find some rule to judge betwixt us , when you and i differ upon the interpretation of the self-same text , or it can never determine our questions ; as for example , i say you misapply that of 2 cor. 1. 14. to me ( let others answer for themselves ) for i know not how i make other men to have dominion over my faith , when i make them onely serve to approve my reason ; nor doe i conceive how , 1 cor. 2. 5. can be applied to this purpose ; for there saint paul onely shewes the difference between divine and humane eloquence , making no mention of any kind of interpretation throughout the whole chapter , as indeed saint peter does , 2 pet. 1. 20. which i conceive makes for me ; for , since that no prophesie of scripture is of any private interpretation ; first , i inferre , that scripture is to be interpreted ; for else , the apostle would have omitted the word private : secondly , that at least the consent of many learned divines is necessary , and so à fortiore , that of the catholique church , ought to be an authentique judge , when men differ : and is it a good argument ? because ( mat. 4. 4. 7. 10. ) scripture is best interpreted by it selfe , therefore that all other interpretations are unlawfull ? certainfull you cannot thinke : thus having shewed you that we differ , about the meaning of the scripture , and are like to do so ; certainly there ought to be for this , as well as other things , a rule or a judge between us , to determine our differences , or , at least , to make our probations and arguments relevant ; therefore evading , for this time , to answer your 6 considerations ( not i assure you for the difficulty of them , but the starting of new questions ) i desire you onely to shew me a better , than what i have offered unto you . newcastle , july 3. 1646. c. r. for mr. alex : henderson , a particular answer to mr. alex : hendersons , july 3. 16. 1646. his majesties fifth paper . untill you shall finde out a fitter way to decide our difference in opinion concerning interpretation of scripture than the consent of the fathers , and the universall practice of the primitive church , i cannot but passe you my judgment anent those 6 considerations , which you offered to invalidate those authorities , that i so much reverence . 1. in the first you mention two rules for defining of controversies , and seeke a most old way to confute them , as i thinke ; for you alleage , that there is more attributed to them , then i believe you can prove , by the consent of most learned men ( there being no question , but there are alwaies some flattering fooles that can commend nothing but with hyperpolick expressions ) and you know that supposito quolibet , sequitur quidlibet ; besides doe you thinke , that albeit some ignorant fellowes , should attribute more power to presbyters , than is really due unto them , that thereby their just reverence and authority is diminished ? so i see no reason why i may not safely maintaine that the interpretation of fathers , is a most excellent strengthning to my opinion , though others should attribute the cause and reason of their faith unto it . 2. as there is no question , but that scripture is the farre best interpreter of it selfe , so i see nothing in this , negatively proved , to exclude any other , notwithstanding your positive affirmation . 3. nor in the next , for i hope you will not be the first to condemne your selfe , me , and innumerable others , who yet unblamably have not tyed themselves to this rule . 4. if in this you onely intend to prove , that errors were alwaies breeding in the church , i shall not deny it , yet that makes little ( as i conceive ) to your purpose ; but if your meaning be , to accuse the universall practice of the church with error , i must say it is a very bold undertaking ; and , ( if you cannot justifie your selfe by cleare places in scripture ) much to be blamed , wherein you must not alleage , that to be universally received , which was not , as i dare say , that the controversie about free will , was never yet decided , by oecumenicall , or generall councell ; nor must you presume to call that an error , which really the catholique church maintained ( as in rites of baptisme , formes of prayer , observation of feasts , fasts , &c. ) except you can prove it so by the word of god ; and it is not enough to say , that such a thing was not warranted by the apostles , but you must prove by their doctrine , that such a thing was unlawfull , or else the practice of the church is warrant enough for me to follow and obey that custome whatsoever it be , and thinke it good , and shall believe that the apostles creed was made by them , ( such reverence i beare to the churches tradition ) untill other authors be certainly found out . 5. i was taught that de posse ad esse was no good argument ; and indeed to me it is incredible , that any custome of the catholike church was erroneous , which was not contradicted , by orthodox , learned men , in the times of their first practice , as is easily perceived that all those defections were , ( some of them may be justly called rebellions ) which you mention . 6. i deny it is impossible , ( though i confesse it difficult ) to come to the knowledge of the universall consent , and practice of the primitive church , therefore i confesse a man ought to be carefull how to believe things of this nature ; wherefore i conceive this to be onely an argument for caution . my conclusion is , that albeit i never esteemed any authority equall to the scriptures ; yet i doe think the unanimous consent of the fathers , and the universall practice of the primitive church , to be the best and most authenticall interpreters of gods word , and consequently the fittest judges between me and you , when we differ , untill you shall find me better : for example , i think you for the present , the best preacher in newcastle , yet i believe you may erre , and possibly a better preacher may come , but till then , must retaine my opinion . newcastle , july 16. 1646. c. r. the end . the meanes and method of healing in the church. set forth in a sermon. preached before the right honourable the house of peers in westminster abby, april 30. 1660. being a day of solemn humiliation to seek god for his blessing on the counsels of the parliament. by edward reynolds, d.d. and dean of christ-church. reynolds, edward, 1599-1676. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a91746 of text r203411 in the english short title catalog (thomason e983_32). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 59 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 24 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a91746 wing r1265 thomason e983_32 estc r203411 99863375 99863375 115571 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a91746) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 115571) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 146:e983[32]) the meanes and method of healing in the church. set forth in a sermon. preached before the right honourable the house of peers in westminster abby, april 30. 1660. being a day of solemn humiliation to seek god for his blessing on the counsels of the parliament. by edward reynolds, d.d. and dean of christ-church. reynolds, edward, 1599-1676. [4], 42 p. printed by tho. ratcliffe, for george thomason at the rose and crown in st. paul's church-yard, london : 1660. running title reads: the means and method of healing in the church. bound with thomason tract items dated 1659. annotation on thomason copy: "may 26". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng sermons, english -17th century. fasts and feasts -church of england -early works to 1800. church polity -sermons -early works to 1800. a91746 r203411 (thomason e983_32). civilwar no the meanes and method of healing in the church.: set forth in a sermon. preached before the right honourable the house of peers in westmins reynolds, edward 1660 10636 20 0 0 0 0 0 19 c the rate of 19 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-04 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-05 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-07 angela berkley sampled and proofread 2007-07 angela berkley text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the meanes and method of healing in the chvrch . set forth in a sermon . preached before the right honourable the house of peers in westminster abby , april 30. 1660. being a day of solemn humiliation to seek god for his blessing on the counsels of the parliament . by edward reynolds , d. d. and dean of christ-church . london , printed by tho. ratcliffe , for george thomason at the rose and crown in st. paul's church-yard , 1660. nobilissimis , honoratissimis , amplissimis , dominis , in superiori domo parliamentorum ardua regni negotia tractantibus , concionem hanc coram ipsis habitam , ipsorumque jussu pvblici jvris factam , in summi honoris humillimique obsequii testimonivm , dat , dicat , consecrat . e. r. 2 cron. 7. 13 , 14. if i shut up heaven that there be no rain , or if i command the locusts to devour the land , or if i send pestilence among my people : if my people , which are called by my name , shall humble themselves , and pray , and seek my face , and turn from their wicked wayes , then will i hear from heaven , and will forgive their sin , and will heal their land . the words are a gracious promise made by the lord unto solomon after he had dedicated the temple by fasting and prayer ; for though there be no mention of fasting , yet if we consult the time , we shall find that it was in the seventh moneth , 2 chron. 5. 3. and that the solemnity continued from the 8. to the 23. day of that moneth , 2 chron. 7 ▪ 9 , 10. and the 10. day was by a statute for ever appointed to be a day wherein to afflict their souls , levit. 16. 29. the parts are three . 1. a supposition of judgements , vers. 13. where , by the enumeration of three , any others may synechdochically be understood . 2. a direction unto duties : wherein are two things to be taken notice of . 1. the quality of the persons who are to perform them , my people called by my name . 2. a specification of the duties , which are these four , humiliation , supplication , reconciliation , conversion . 3. a gracious promise of mercy , wherein are very remarkable four signal returns of grace in conformity to their duties . 1. they humble themselves under gods holy hand , and he humbleth himself to look down from heaven . 2. they pray , and god hears their prayer . 3. they seek the favour and the face of god , and god forgives their sin , and is reconciled unto them . 4. they turn from their wicked wayes , and god heals those evils which those wicked wayes had brought upon the land ; no duty undertaken in vain , but a sutable and correspondent mercy promised to encourage them thereunto . it may here not impertinently be asked , why these three judgements of shutting up heaven , sending locusts and pestilence , are rather mentioned than any other , since doubtless the promise doth extend it self further ? i take the reason to be , 1. because these are irresistable , no counsel , no policy , no strength can prevent them . 2. because they are inflicted by god alone , no second causes immixed in them , if i shut up heaven , if i command the locusts , if i send pestilence . 1. if an enemy come , counsel may hinder , strength may vanquish , treasure may bribe , and divert him . our own polices and provisions may seem to contribute towards our help . but against an army of locusts , no policy , wisdome , srength , embassie can prevail . no power of man can open or shut the clouds , no gates or barres can keep out a famine , or a pestilence from a place . 2. if an enemy come , we are apt to ascribe that to the malice of men , to look outward to second causes , and not inward to our own sins , or upward to the justice of god , though it be certain , that there is no humane hostility without a divine commission . men are gods rod , and sword , and staffe , psal. 17. 13. isa. 10. 5 , 6. ezek ▪ 21. 3 , 5 , 11. he by his secret and holy providence edgeth the spirits of men against one another , ( as he sent an evil spirit between the men of shechem and abimelech ) judg. 9. 23. and stirreth up adversaries against those that provoke him , as he did against solomon , 1 reg. 11. 14 , 23 and when he pleaseth to return in mercy , he rebuketh the sword , and breaketh the bow , and cutteth the spear in sunder , psalm 46. 9. isa. 54. 17. these things i say are certain . but we are too apt to bite the stone that hurts us , and not mind the hand that threw it . whereas when wrath is from heaven only , we are forced to see god , we have no second causes to ascribe it unto . so the meaning is ; if ▪ i send judgments immediately from my self , such as no humane wisdome can prevent , or power remove , if then the people shall bethink themselves , and return , and seek my face , they shall find that when wisdome , policy , treasures , walls , armour , munition are nothing worth , prayer and repentance shall avail for healing . so here is a double combate between god and man . 1. man provokes god with sin , and god overcomes sin with judgement . 2. man wrestleth with prayer and humiliation , and god yieldeth in mercy and compassion . i begin with the first general , the supposition of judgements , and from thencemake two observations . i. judgements light not on a people casually , or by chance , but by the over-ruling and disposing power and justice of the command and commission of god . it hath not an earthly original ; it growes not out of the dust , job 5. 6 , 7. but it comes from heaven , and is sent from god to signifie something of his mind unto us . 1. sometimes indeed by way of dominion and absolute power , he destroyeth the perfect and the wicked , he laugheth at the trial of the innocent , job 9. 22 , 23. sometimes as a preparation unto intended mercy , as men plow the ground which they mean to inrich with precious seed , and carve the stone which they mean to put in the top of the building . josephs iron chain made way to his golden chain , and davids troubles season'd him for his crown . as men put forth longest into wind and sun that great timber which must bear the greatest burden and stress of the building . no such school to learn in as the school of affliction . but most usually in a way of justice , because thy sins were increased , i have done these things unto thee , jer. 30. 15. thou hast done right , we have done wickedly , neh. 9. 33. i have not done without cause all that i have done , ezek. 14. 23. personal chastisements may be for tryal and exercise of faith and patience , but general and publick judgements are ever in wrath and displeasure . such have been the dealings of god in this nation ; the cup of affliction hath been given to all orders of men ; we have seen princes on scaffolds , and in banishment ; parliaments broken in pieces by their servants , peers and patriots devested of their honours , and secluded from their trust ; dishonours poured upon the city , poverty on the countrey , blood on the land , scorn on ministers , threats on vniversities , consternation on souldiers , there is not any order or degree of men , which have not been shaken with these earth-quakes . o how deep is our stupidity , if we do not all of us analyze and resolve our sufferings into their proper principles , ours sins and gods displeasure ? if we have only howled vnder them , and see not gods providence in them , ordering the sins of men unto our humiliation ? if we know them only naturally by their smart to the flesh , and not spiritually by their influence on the conscience ? if we censure others , and absolve our selves ; if our sufferings harden and enrage us in animosities against men , but do not meeken and melt us under the holy tryals of god ? let us therefore labour to find out our sins by our sufferings , the cloud of wrath rising out of the sea of lust . let us search and try our wayes , and since we are living men , not complain of the punishment of our sins , be not as adamants , rocks , oakes , which blowes , waves , winds , break not , move not , bend not . make use of our sufferings to review our sins , and to know our duty , what we should haply have done , and did not in the day of our prosperity , before god laid us aside , what the controversie was which god had against us in our sufferings , what the duties are which he requireth of us in our restitution . the prophets staffe did no good to the dead child till he came himself . judgements do nothing , till god follow them with his craces . chastisements never mend us till they teach us . blessed is the man whom thou chastenest , o lord , and teachest him out of thy law , psalm 94. 12. till we see his name , and hear his voice in them , mic. 6. 9. till we take notice of his justice preparing the whale that hath s . vallowed us , jon 1. 17. bidding s●imei curse , 2 sam. 16. 10. giving a charge to the assyrian , isa. 10. 6. this will make us dumb , when we consider that it is god that doth it , psalm 39. 9. and now that the cup hath gone round , and god hath by his righteous providence prevented our revenge , and done that by the strange vicissitudes of his justice in a wise and holy manner , which if he had left us to do in our owne , cases would possibly have been done with folly and fury : let us conclude that the lord having judged us all himselfe , we should make it our work not so much to look back with revengefull , as to look forward with healing and closing resolutions . we have been like wanton children which fall out in a family , now our father hath whipped us round , that should make us returne to our fraternal agreements againe . 2. the lord hath variety of judgements whereby to reduce froward and stubborn sinners , can punish them in the heavens over them , in the earth under them , in their bowels within them , can beset them upward , downward , outward , inward , and make a net , and chain , and hedge of afflictions to shut them in , and to fence up their way that they cannot pass , job 3. 23. job 19. 8. when he will plead , he will take away all refuge , and make every region , towards which we look , minister despair . they shall look upward , and they shall look unto the earth , and behold trouble , and darkness , and dimness of anguish , isa. 8. 21 , 22. if they look without , behold a sword ; if within , behold famine and pestilence , levit. 26 , 25. jer. 21. 4. 6 ezek. 7. 15. evil , which they shall not be able to escape , or go forth of , jer. 11. 11. when men multiply sins , the lord usually multiplyeth judgements , till he either bend by repentance , or break by destruction . when cleanness of teeth , blasting and mildew , pestilence and sword , the judgements of sodome and gomorah , did not prevail with israel to return , then he threathneth final wrath , therefore thus will i do unto thee , amos 4. 6. — 12. which thus , in the prophet amos , seemeth to me , to be the same with lo ammi , in the prophet hosea , an utter rejection of them from being the lords people , hos. 1. 9. four times after one another doth the lord threaten to punish his people seven times more for their sins , if they walk contrary unto him , levit. 26. 18 , 21 , 24 , 28. philosophers use to reckon but eight steps to the highest , and most intense degree of a quality , but the wrath of god is represented by eight and twenty degrees unto us . 1. the methode of god in these various judgements usually is . 1. he begins at the outward man , exercising a people many times with change of rods , which is ever a sign of anger in the father , and of stubbornness in the son . 2. he proceeds to the soule by smiteing that , revealing his wrath , subducting his peace , implanting his terrors , causing guilt and fear to gripe and seize on the conscience , called breaking of bones , psal. 51. 8. drinking up of spirits , iob. 6. 4. a wounded spirit , prov. 18. 14. if the lord should give a secure sinner , who now haply thinks himself alive , and safe , upon the mistaken apprehensions of mercy , a full view of the filthiness , and sense of the heaviness of any one atrocious sin whereof he stands guilty , it would make him a terrour to himself , willing to exchange his burden for the weight of a rock or mountain . o my broken bones , saith one , psalm 51. 8. o my withered heart , saith another , psalm 102. 3 , 4. o the distracting terrours of god , saith a third , psalm 88. 15. o the intoxicating arrows of the almighty , saith a fourth , job 6. 4. thus the lord can make a man a magor missabib , a very fury and fiend unto himself , by arming his own conscience against him . and if the sergeant be so formidable , what a fearfull thing is it to fall into the hands of the living god ? against whose wrath all the honours of the world , all the wealth and greatness , which a thousand kingdomes could heap upon a man , could be no more a protection , than a robe of beaten gold , could be to one that is cast into a furnace of fire . knowing therefore the terrour of the lord , let us be perswaded to be beware of provoking his wrath by any presumptuous sin . 3. towards obdurate sinners , the lord many times deals in a more fearfull manner , sealing them up under hardness of heart , a spirit of slumber , a reprobate sense , a seared conscience , to be led blind-fold by satan till destruction unawares overtake them . so it is said of the old world , that notwithstanding the preaching of noah , who by preparing an ark condemned the world , they yet knew not till the flood came , and took them all away , mat. 24. 39. because i have purged thee , saith the lord , and thou wast not purged , thou shalt not be purged from thy filthiness any more , ezek. 24. 13. ephraim is joyned to idols , let him alone , hos. 4. 17. let him that is filthy be filthy still , rev. 22. 11. now since the lord hath such variety of judgements , that we can never out-sin his wrath , let us be deeply humbled for our pride , who have pharaoh-like put god to so many changes of rods , and variety of judgements , as we in this nation have felt . let us yield betime unto him , for he will overcome when he judgeth . let us take heed of flattering our selves when one rod is worn out ▪ or laid a side , as if the bitterness of death were past , god can make every creature about us , every faculty within us , a rod and a scourge against us . and therefore having received such deliverances as we lately have done , let us make holy ezra's conclusion , should we again break thy commandments ? ezra 9. 13 , 14 should we not take heed of sinning any more , lest a worse thing come unto us ? joh. 5. 14. should we not consider for what it is that god restored us to our stations , namely , that we should in our places study how to honour him , to be zealous for his truth , and pure religion , tender of the liberties , properties , and equal rights of all the people in the land , to restore all oppressed innocents , to loose the bonds of violence , and to settle these so long shaking and discomposed nations upon the firm foundations of truth , peace and righteousness againe ? thus much for the first general . the supposition of judgements , various , and such as come immediately from god , and admit of no possible prevention by humane wisdome , or removal by humane power . ii. we proceed to the direction unto duties , wherein comes first to be considered the quality of the persons who are to perform them , my people that are called by my name . all men are his creatures , only a select and peculiar inheritance , that bear his name , enjoy his peace , promises and protection , and are in covenant with him , are called his people . i entred into covenant with thee , and thou becamest mine , saith the lord , ezek. 16. 8. this people have i formed for my self , isa. 43. 21. the lord hath set apart him that is godly for himselfe , psalm 4. 3. they are the people of his holiness , isa. 63. 18. a people for his name , taken out from among others , acts 15. 14. to be called by his name , noteth to be his adopted children , as josephs children were made the children of jacob , genesis 48. 5 , 16. we are gods people two wayes . 1. by visible profession or sacramental separation from the world , as the whole nation of the jewes are called his people . a peculiar treasure unto him above all people , exod. 19. 5. a nation , nigh unto him , deut. 4. 7. his people even then when they rebelled against him , isa. 1. 3 , 4. 2. by spiritual sanctification , and internal dispositions . thine they were , and thou gavest them me , and they have kept thy word , john 17. 6. jews inwardly by the circumcision of the heart , rom. 2. 29. the israel of god , gal. 6. 16. the children of the promise , rom. 9. 8. the remnant according to the election of grace , rom. 11. 5. the circumcision which worship god in the spirit , phil. 3. 3. these are his people by a price of redemption , 1 cor. 6. 19 , 20. by a peculiar designation unto his service , tit. 2. 14. by an intimate relation of love and dearness , ezek. 16. 8. by an high valuation of them as treasures , jewels , vessels of honour , mal. 3. 17. 1 pet. 2. 9. 2 tim. 2. 20. by destination to a more glorious end , eph. 4. 30. the duty extends to both . the whole body of a visible church are in judgements to humble themselves , and as to temporal deliverances the lord doth respect the humiliations of the worser members of the church , as we see in the cases of ahab and rehoboam , 1 reg. 21. 28 , 29. 2 chron. 12. 6 , 7. but to do this so effectually as to attain all the annexed promises , is the work of the israel of god by spiritual sanctification . now from this qualification we gather these two useful observations . i. the sins of gods own people , who are in covenant with him , may provoke and procure judgements ; their pride , and security , worldly love , conformity to the corruptions of the times , coldness and formality in duty , uneven and unfaithfull walking , acting by divided interests from the rest of the lords people , may provoke god severely to punish a land , and we may justly fear hath done so amongst us . a good man , though a son may yet be silius sub ira , under paternal displeasure . if moses and aaron do not by believing glorifie god , they must both die in the wilderness , num. 20. 12. if david grow proud of victories , and number the people , god will send a plague which shall lessen their number and his pride , 2 sam. 24. 15. if solomon turn from god to women , and to idols , though he be a son , he shall be chastized with the rods of men , 2 sam. 7. 14. if asa grieve the prophet , and oppress the people , he shall be vexed with warrs and diseases , 2 chron. 19. 9 , 12. if jehoshaphat help the ungodly , his life shall be endangered , and his ships broken , 2 chron. 19. 20. god will have judgement begin at his own house , 1 peter , 4. 17. their sins have some aggravations in them which other mens have not ; these are committed against special light and more glorious convictions , as those of solomon , after god had appeared unto him twice , 1 reg. 11. 9. against special love , and experiences of divine favour , 2 samuel 12. 7. — 9. against special relations , the honour of a father , a lord , an husband , isa. 1. 2. against special grace , and assistance of the holy spirit , ephes , 4. 30. against special covenants and engagements , after a vouching god for theirs , psalm 78. 34. against special deliverances from greatest dangers , ezra 9. 13 , 14. against special hopes , and more special promises which should have ! perswaded them unto holiness , 2 cor. 7. 1. 1 john . 3. 3. against special peace and glorious comforts , as david sinned against the joy of gods salvation , psalm 51. 12. peter denied christ after he had seen his transfiguration . and this may teach the holiest of men ; 1. to take heed of playing the wantons with the grace of god : though god be a tender , yet he may be an angry father : and who knoweth the power of his anger ? psalm 90. 11. 2. to be more carefull to stand in the breach against publick judgements , having by their sins contributed to the bringing of them upon the land . 2. it is not our doing of duty , but gods being in covenant with us , which is the ground of his mercy to us . property doth stir up compassion , though they have provoked me , yet i will spare them , because they are mine , malachy 3. 17. whence we learn ; 1. in what manner to go to god , and to plead with him , not in confidence of our duty , but of our relation to him as his , thou art our father , we are thine , isa. 63. 16 , — 19. the church in affliction seldome useth any other argument , why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people ? exod. 32. 11. art not thou our god ? 2 chron. 20. 7. we are called by thy name , leave us not , jer. 14. 9. spare thy people , o lord , give not thine heritage to reproach , joel 2. 17. and the lord when there is no motive else , is marvellously wrought on by this argument , is ephraim my dear son ? is he a pleasant child ? for since i spake against him , i do earnestly remember him still , therefore my bowels are troubled for him , i will surely have mercy upon him , saith the lord , jer. 31. 20. in confession we must say , thus and thus have we done . josh. 7. 20. in petition we must say , thus and thus hast thou promised . we may argue much better from relations then performances . lord , we are thy children ; when we deserved wrath thou didst adopt us ; though we deserve it still , do not reject us . when thou didst adopt us , thou didst adopt enemies : if thou shouldst reject us , thou shouldst reject children . our unworthiness could not prevent thy mercy , let it not remove it . 2. in what manner to do duty . none can do duty aright , but as one of his , and in covenant with him . in christ by faith both our persons , and our services are accepted , ephe. 1. 6. 1 pet. 2. 5. the altar sanctifieth the gift , and he is our altar . out of him we can do nothing . duties are not done aright , but in the vertue of the covenant of grace . jehu did a work materially good , but carnal policy turned it into sin , hos. 1. 4. to pray , and yet hold fast cruelty ; to fast , and to take pleasure in wickedness ; to bring offerings and flocks to gods house , and still delight in violence and oppression ; if any thing be to mock god , and provoke wrath , certainly this is , to make religion , like samuels mantle , a cloak for the devil . 3. in what manner to escape judgements , and secure mercy . be his people , and you are sure to be spared , mal. 3. 17. ezek. 9. 4. he hath an ark for noah , a zoar for lot , a basket for paul , a gath for david , chambers and hiding places for his people , untill calamity be over-past , isa. 26. 20. psalm 57. 2. zeph. 2. 3. when jesus was neer his own suffering , and in the midst of dangers himself , he took care of his poor disciples . let these go , joh. 18. 8. the less protection they find amongst men , the more they shall have from him . since therefore the lord is tender of the interests of his people , and takes special care of hearing , forgiving , and healing them , let it be your care , right honourable , likewise to take them into your protection : they who hurt them , hew at the bough whereon they stand , dig under the foundation which holds them up . this for the qualifications of the persons of whom these duties are required ; the duties themselves required for the removal of judgements , follow . 1. if they shall humble themselves , and be cast down under my holy hand in the sense of my displeasure . but that is not enough , ahab did so , 1 reg. 21. 27. who for ought we read , did not pray unto god . 2. if they shall pray , and cry for help , as ninivie did , jonah 3. 8. but that is not enough neither . hypocrites in distress will say , arise and save us , jer. 2. 27. they will spread forth their hands , and make many prayers , isa. 1. 15. and cry in the ears of the lord with a loud voice , ezek. 8. 18. and enquire early after him , psalm 78. 34. 3. if they shall seek my face , be grieved more for my displeasure than my rod , pray first for mercy , and then for healing , as david , psalm 6. 2. it was christs method first to forgive , and then to heal , mat. 9. 2 , 6. and it must be ours in praying for it . but neither is this enough , pharoah can be contented to have his sin forgiven , though he will not let it goe , exodus 10. 17. 4. if they shall turn from their evil wayes , and so lift up holy hands unto god , first wash their hands in innocency , and then compass the lords altar , psalm 26. 6. put iniquity far away from their hands , and then stretch them forth towards god , job 11. 13 , 14. lift up pure hands , 1 tim. 2. 8. put away the evil of their doings , and then come and reason together with the lord , isaiah 1. 16 , 17 , 18. 1. then , if they shall humble themselves . a duty called for by prophets and apostles , mic. 6. 8. jam. 4. 10. 1 pet. 5. 6. specially respected by god , as we find in the case of josiah , 2 reg. 22. 19. and gracious promises made thereunto , leviticus 26. 41. 42. it emptieth the heart of self-confidence , is the root of that fundamental duty of self-denial . it fits for approach to god , because the more humble , the more welcome : the more we tremble at his threatnings , the more we shall supplicate for his grace , isa. 66. 2. job 9. 15. it disposeth to a confession of sin , as we see in the poor prodigal and publican , luke 15. 17 , 18 , 19. luke 18. 13. it prepares the heart for the entertainment of mercy , though the proclamation be made , and the court of mercy be open to all , rev. 17. 22. yet while men love sin , they forsake mercy , jon. 2. 8. but when the soul is humbled , it opens to god , and his grace . weary souls are glad to be satiated , jer. 31. 25. it makes way to the forsaking of sin ; the more a soul is humbled for it , the more it is fearfull of it , and watchfull against it . humiliation is two-fold . 1. a passive , when god breaks the heart by the hammer of the word , as it is called , jer. 23. 29. or by some sore affliction . 2. active , when the soul humbleth it self under sin and wrath ; when a man-afflicts his own soul , levit. 16. 29. again , this is two-fold : 1. legal , proceeding from a spirit of bondage , when the heart roars on a rack , or melts in a furnace , is fill'd with consternation and anguish under the weight of sin and wrath : which was the case of pharaoh , ahab , belshazzar , felix , the jaylor , the murtherers of christ . 2. evangelical , when the soul is not only broken and batter'd with the horror and dread of wrath ( this it may be , and remain hard , as every piece of a broken flint is hard still . ) but when it is kindly melted and softned with apprehensions of gods goodness and free grace . a compounded duty made up of love and sorrow , the humiliation of hezekiah , jer. 26. 19. and of josiah , 2 chron. 34. 27. this is a perpetual duty ; as long as sin remains , there must be a sense of it , and sorrow for it . but in some times and cases it is specially to be renewed ; as in time of extraordinary sins and provocations , of publick dangers and distresses , of great enterprizes attempted , or successes and blessings desired : which was the case of exra , 8. 21. the great sins , the sad divisions , the dis-joynted affections , the contrary interests , the dolefull errors and distempers in the church , the miserable fluctuations and discomposures which have been in the state , the horrid violations of order and justice , the wofull staines which have been upon the land , by the irregular and prodigious effusion of the blood of princes , peers and prophets , the affronts and dissipations which have been put upon parliaments , the contempts which have been poured outon ministers , and at tempts against their maintenance ; the great difficulties which lie before the noble houses at this time , in their endeavours of healing and setling the land , and putting the broken bones and dislocated joynts into due order again ; the allaying of animosities , the moderating of extremities , the reconciling of differences , the satisfying of interests , the preservation of pure religion , and the great concernments of christ and his people ; the restoring of collapsed honour to the nations , and of just rights to all orders therein ; ( which have been so many years obstructed ) the reviving of trade , the easing of pressures , the reducing of these wofully tossed and naufragated kingdoms unto calmness and serenity again , do call aloud for these duties in the text , that so the lord may be pleased to hear , forgive , and heal us himself ; and shine upon the counsels , and bless the whole undertakings of his servants that they may be instruments of healing us likewise . for your better performance hereof , i shall propose two expedients . i. to take a view of god in himself , and in his relations unto you , and dealings with you . ii. to take a view of your selves in the glass of his pure and holy law . 1. set the lord before you as david did , psalm 16. 8. consider what a god he is with whom we have to do . consider him , 1. in himself . his searching eye , humble your selves in his sight , jam. 4. 10. his mighty hand , humble your selves under his hand , 1 pet. 5. 6. his eye can search us , we cannot hide from him ; his hand can reach us , we cannot escape him . every attribute of god may serve to humble us . his majesty and glory , dreadfull to the angels , isa. 6. 2. cujus participatione justi ejus comparatione nec justi . he is a great god , and therefore greatly to be feared , psalm 89. 6 , 7. his holiness , wherein he is glorious , exodus 15. 11. so holy that he cannot be served , josh. 24. 19. of purer eyes than to behold iniquity . his jealousie and justice : a god to whom vengeance belongeth , who will not be mocked or provoked , nahum 1. 2. his mercy and goodness which should lead us to repentance , and melt the heart into a filial fear of him , hosea 3. 5. rom. 2. 4. his omniscience , who searcheth and trieth the heart and the reins , hath all things naked and open before him . if we know enough by our selves , to humble and abase us , how should we reverence the eye of god who knoweth all things ? such considerations greatly humbled the holiest of men . moses is afraid to look upon god , exod. 3. 6. job abhors himself , job 42. 5. elijah hides his face in a mantle , 1 reg. 19 , 13. isaiah cries out , i am undone , isa. 6. 5. ezra cannot stand before god , ezra 9. 15. peter bids christ depart from him , because he is a sinfull man , luke 5. 8. 2. in his relations to us : he our maker , we the clay ; he our king , we vassals ; he our judge , we malefactors ; he our father , we undutifull sons ; he our master , we unprofitable servants . all arguments unto humiliation . 3. in his dealing with us . our humiliation melts him all into mercy , when israel confessed , submitted , prayed , reformed , the soul of the lord was grieved for their misery , judg. 10. 15 , 16. when ephraim smote on his thigh , the lords bowels were troubled for him , jer. 31. 19 , 20. but our stubborness will seal and shut up his compassions against us , levit. 26. 21. consider him ; 1. in his iudgements and various providences : by which we should learn righteousness , isa. 26. 9. the lords cup hath passed through all orders of men , princes , peers , gentry , ministers , people , souldiers themselves ; we have felt his judgements in our houses , our honours , our names , our estates , by wars on land , by dangers on sea , by divisions in church , by confusions in state , by more evils and sorrows then can be well enumerated . and should we not turn unto the lord that smites ? isa. 9. 13. should we be like ahaz , the worse for our sufferings ? 2 chron. 28. 22. be set on fire , and not know it ; be burnt , and not lay it to heart ? isa. 42. 25. 2. in his mercies which have shined upon us through all our clouds . we have no reason to complain , for we are living men . he hath remembred mercy in the midst of wrath , quenched the flame of war , frustrated the attempts of those who would have kindled it again , rebuked the rage of the sea , the beast of the reeds , as the psalmist speaks , put a stop to the career of those who had in hope and design swallowed up our churches , our vniversities , our ministry , our jordan into their dead sea . continued his gospel , and the means of grace in plenty and liberty amongst us , ( blessed be his name for ever , never may this blessing be removed from us ) restored our parliaments ( the great bulwarks under god of our religion , liberties , properties , interests , all our endearments ) towards their ancient honour and splendor again . and this goodness of god calls for our humiliation , i will accept you , and gather you out of the countries , and then you shall remember your wayes , and loath your selves , ezek. 20. — 41 , 43. with an hard and a soft , stone and mortar , we build a wall ; with an hard and an soft , an hammer and a pillow , we break a flint ; with an hard and a soft , the seal and the wax , we make an impression . hard judgements and soft mercies , should build us up in holiness , break our stubborn hearts , and make impressions upon them . ii. take a view of your selves , of your own hearts and lives ; we are apt to forget our selves , iam. 1. 23. to mistake our selves , prov. 14. 12. rev. 3. 17. and therefore we are bid to search and try our selves , 2 cor. 13. 5. as a means to silence our complaints against god , lam. 3. 39 , 40. when the prodigal son once came to himself , and took a surveigh of his own condition , he was quickly brought to acknowledge his unworthiness , luke 15. 17 , 18. this is a duty of singular use and benefit . it enlargeth the heart in godly sorrow for sin past , upon the discoveries which this scrutiny maketh . when we remember our doings , we shall loath our selves , ezek. 6. 9. it worketh caution and circumspection for the time to come ; we shall take heed of breaking the commandments , having provoked the lord so much already , ezra 9. 14. it will cause us to magnifie divine mercy , as paul did , when he called to mind , that he had been a persecutor and blasphemer , 1 tim. 1. 13 , 15. if any one should do us the thousanth part of the wrong which we have done god , could we humble our selves to feed , to cloath , to enrich , to adopt such a person unto our own family , and provide an ample inheritance for him ? it would make us relie only on free grace , and not on any strength of our own , when we consider how much god requires , and how little we perform . i will go in the strength of the lord , i will make mention of thy righteousness , of thine only , psal. 71. 16. ashur shall not save us , we will not ride upon horses , nor say to the work of our hands , ye are our gods , for in thee the father less findeth mercy , hos. 14. 3. isa. 17. 7 , 8. it will make us exceeding meek and patient in afflictions . it is nothing but ignorance of our selves , which makes us swell and fret against god . if we be living men , we have no reason to complain , for we suffer less than our iniquity deserves , lam. 3. 39 , 40. job 11. 6. psal. 103 , 10. ezra 9. 13. and that we may have the better and fuller view of our selves , of our hearts and lives , let us look upon the holy law of god . it is exceeding broad , and reacheth to the smallest corruption , psalm 119. 96. exceeding spiritual , and searcheth the inmost corners of the soul , rom. 7. 14. exceeding pure , and cannot away with the least pollution , psalm 119. 140. exceeding perfect , and will not dispence with any defect , psalm 19. 7. exceeding right and strait , and cannot endure any guil of spirit , psalm 19. 8 9. upon the exceeding great and precious promises of the gospel , which are the portion and dowry of the church here below , upon the holy spirit of love and grace , which sealeth believers unto the day of redemption . upon the free love whereby we were elected , upon the precious blood whereby we were redeemed , upon the glorious inheritance whereunto we are reserved , upon the gracious image after which we are renewed . this holy law we have violated , these precious promises we have undervalued , this blessed spirit we have grieved , this grace we have abused , this image defiled , this free love , this inestimable blood , this glorious inheritance we have deprized , and miserably neglected ●ad disesteemed . what remains , but that we cry out all with the leaper in the law , unclean , vnclean . lastly , let us take off our sins ; if we be not rocks and adamants , that will humble us . we were made to converse with god , and sin hath shut him out of all our thoughts . we use to lament sad alterations , when a garden of eden is made a wilderness , cities turned into ruinous heaps , they that wear scarlet , embracing dung-hils . how should we bewail the sad change which sin hath wrought in our nature and lives ? that a creature stamped with the impress of the divine image , made for high and honourable imployments , should so far degenerate , as to be a child of darkness , a vassal of hell , a vessel of lust . that a soul made of a kind of angelical substance , should sink it self into the balance , with sordid pleasures , with perishing profits , with noisome lusts , should barter , and sell away its self , and its salvation , for wind ; for shame , for vanity , for rottenness , and change its glory for that which doth not profit . that a tongue which was made to glorifie god , and to be our glory , made for prayers , and praises , and gracious communication , should belch out blasphemy and profaneness , oaths and curses , ribaldrie and reviling , and all kind of rotten speeches , like an open sepulcher . that an heart which was made for heavenly meditations , and for intimate communion and converse with god , should now entertain none but hellish affections , and be a sink and charnel house of impure lusts . if we should here descend to a more particular disquisition , and consider , the uncleanness of our original from fallen-adam , by whom we have been sold as bond-men under sin , rom. 7. 14. for none can bring a clean thing out of an unclean ? job 14. 4. job . 25 4. the uncleanness of our nature and constitution , by nature children of wrath , no good thing dwelling in us . as contrary to the holy will of god , as darkness to light ; as full of evil , as the sea of water ; set on fire by a hell of corruption , james 3.6 . exactly contrary to the law of god , as appeareth by comparing the strict demands of the one , gen. 3. 10. with the thorow depravation of the other , gen. 6. 5. the uncleanness of our thoughts , and secret affections which arise continually , as sparkles out of a stirred furnace : vain thoughts , which tend to no good , jer. 4. 14. wicked impure thoughts , very gall and bitterness , acts 8. 22 , 23. the uncleanness of our words , not only idle words , mat. 12. 36. but rotten and unsavory , eph. 4. 29. the uncleanness of our actions , that immense colluvies of impieties against god , unrighteousness against men , intemperance against our selves , hainous in quality , measureless in quantity , sands for number , mountains for weight , attended with multitudes of dolefull aggravations ; the uncleanness of our services , and iniquity of our holy things ; such considerations as these sanctified by evangelical grace , would much conduce to our humiliation , and work in us these three fruits and evidences thereof . 1. a godly sorrow , so called by the apostle , because it sets the soul god-ward . cain , judas , felix sorrowed , but they ran from god . but godly sorrow carries the soul closer unto god . as a ship in a tempest ventures not to any shore , but gets further into the sea ; so the soul when it is humbled by god , betakes not it self unto any carnal shore , but still runs closer into him . 2. a justifying of god , ascribing to him the glory of his righteousness , if he should condemn us ; and of his mercy , that he doth absolve us , psalm 51. 4. daniel 9. 7 , 8 , 9. 3. a self-judging and subscribing to our condemnation , saying amen unto the curse , deut. 27. 15. if i judge my selfe , god can reverse my judgement , as the superiour judicatory can the act of the inferiour : but if i stay till god judge me , all the world cannot null or avoid his . as st. austin saith of the poor publican , ipse sibi judex erat , ut deus liberaret ; ipse accusabat , ut ille defenderet . he judged and accused himself , that god might deliver and defend him . bonum judicium , saith bernard , quod me illo districto divinoque judicio subducit & abscondit : volo vultui irae judicatus praesentari non judicandus . this is a good judgement indeed which withdraws and hides me from the severe judgement of god . i tremble to fall into the hands of the living god , let me be presented before his wrath as judged already , not as to be judged by him . ii. the next duty is prayer , without which humiliation is but a sinking under god , not a seeking unto him . the very heathen betook themselves unto this sanctuary in times of trouble , ut pacem dei exposcerent ▪ by this mighty engine god hath been moved to hold his hand , to repent of purposed , to revoke denounced judgements ; vincit invincibilem , ligat omnipotentem . 1. by this we honour god in acknowledging him the fountain of all our good , the inflicter of all evill , the avenger ▪ of all sin , that we have to do with him in all our sufferings , creatures but the rod , he the father that holds it : that no other means can do us good , except he sanctifie them , that his displeasure none can remove : as a diamond is cut only by a diamond , so god is pacified only by himself : the sting of the scorpion cured by the powder of the scorpion ; the anger of god by the favour of god . 2. by this we ease our selves , prayer lightneth affliction where it doth not remove it . nature is strengthned to bear the pain , conscience is strengthned to withstand the temptation and snare of it . the heart is meekned to accept the punishment of sin , as wool or mud deads the force of a bullet , so the heart meekned by prayer , doth obtund the edge of an affliction , that it cannot get so deep into the heart to hurt it . iii. in prayer we must seek the face of god ; his favour to comfort us , and his counsell to direct us . 1. in judgements and difficulties we should more seek gods favour than our own deliverance ; the recovery of his love , than the removal of his rod . others griefs press nature , his displeasure wounds the spirit . in other griefs , gods favour upholds the soul , psa. 23. 4. & 94. 17 , 19. but when gods favour is withdrawn , the soul hath nothing else left to lean to , nothing can comfort when god frownes . armour can protect against a sword or a bullet , but not against fire . when god is angry , no refuge but unto god . 2. in difficulties we must likewise seek gods face as david did , 2 sam. 21. 1. not lean on our own understanding , nor sacrifice to our net , but have our eyes upon him , who is the father of lights , who when he will , maketh wise the simple ; and when he will , infatuateth the counsel of the wise , and maketh it brutish . iv. after all these preparatory duties , that which is the substantial duty , and the end of all the rest , must follow , turning from our wicked wayes : not from sin to sin , that is , mutatio in aliud only , not in melius : not from sin to secular interest , that is not a conversion from sin to god , but to the world : not from sin to the meer dictates of nature and right reason ; that is not a conversion from sin to god , but from sin to our selves ; a philosophical , not a spiritual conversion : not from sin only to the natural conscience , to gratifie and prevent the terrors of that ; that is a servile , not a filial conversion . but from sin to god , not fainedly and hypocritically , jer. 3. 10. with a divided heart , but sincerely in our thoughts from the love and allowance of all sin , in our wayes from the practise willingly of any sin ; but especially from those sins which have most prevailed ▪ against us and wherewith we have most dishonoured god , as isaiah ▪ 17. 7 , 8. 30. 22. hoseah 14. 3. these are the duties here prescribed in order to the answering of solomons prayer . the answer followes exactly commensurate to these duties in four gracious promises . 1. a promise of gracious condescention intimated in the word from heaven , though he dwell on high , he will humble himself to revive the spirit of contrite and humble sinners , psa. 113. 5 , 6. isa. 57. 15. he will come down to work deliverance for them , exod. 3. 8. 2. promise of gracious audience , i will hear . it is a● dolefull ▪ affliction to gods servants● , when he is angry with their prayers , and shuts them out , psalm 80. 4. lam. 3. 8. and on the other side , this is one of the most radiant and glorious comforts of gods people , that in all difficulties they have a throne of grace to betake them to , with a promise , you shall pray , and i will hearken , as a man doth to what he delighteth in : for the prayer of the righteous is his delight , jer. 29. 12. 13. prov. 15. 8. 3. a gracious promise of forgiveness , to serene his countenance , and lift up the light thereof upon them ▪ for even when we do his will , and when we are his people , we want pardoning mercy . there is need of pardon not only for the ungodly unto their justification , but also for his own people and children into a restitution to paternal favour , the sense and fruition whereof they may forfeit by their sins . and this is gods method in hearing prayers , to forgive sin before he cures pain , mat. 9. 2. for indeed when sin is pardoned , the sickness is cured at the root , for sin is the sting of every affliction , as well as of death . 4. a promise of healing , healing of the land , the humiliations and prayers of gods peculiar people are beneficial to the whole land ; the innocent shall deliver the island , job 22. 30. a joseph in egypt , an eliah in israel is the chariots and horsemen thereof . an humbled , praying , converting people , shall certainly be an healed people : and if ever we hope to be healed to purpose , this must be our method to it . now touching these promises there is this worthy our observation . 1. that when god comes down to deliver , and looks from heaven , he doth it by no other way , then by the incarnation of his son , the efficacy of his spirit , the operation of his providence , or the ministry of angels . 2. when he hears prayers , it is only by the intercession and mediation of christ . 3. when he forgives sins , it is only by the merits and righteousness of christ . 4. but when he heals a land , he often useth in that work the ministry of men . magistrates are healers and repairers , isa. 3. 7 : ministerrs are healers of the sick , ezek. 34. 4. and therefore i shall here in all humility implore of you , right honourable , who are instruments for healing in the lords hand unto these long and wofully sick nations , that you would with all your vigour call together all the graces of god , all the abilities of nature in you unto this most necessary work . you have the lords promise to be with you in i● ▪ if you set about it in his way . and his way to heal a land , is , 1. when the people thereof are his people , called by his name . 2. when they are an humbled , penitent , praying , reforming people . your greatest care therefore must be , 1. that the people of the land be gods people , that his name be owned , his truths , worship , interests preserved pure and inviolate amongst us . it is to those that fear gods name that the promise of healing is made , mal. 4. 2. 2. in as much as even the sins of such may provoke the lord , your zeal for god , and love to the nation should appear , in awakening them and all others to remember from whence they are fallen ; many of them through pride , wantonness , interests and carnal designs , from wholesome truths , from holy ordinances ; from the love of a faithfull ministry , from brotherly love , from christian ▪ communion , to many errours and vain janglings , to contempt of magistracy , to affronting authority , to violating publick order and peace , to such an excess of licentiousness under the pretense of freedome , that religion scarce ever was more endangered under the straights of persecution , than under the lasciviousness and wantonness of an abused liberty . though therefore there ought to be all tenderness to preserve for gods people the liberty wherewith the lord hath made them free , god forbid any restraint or abridgement should be upon that ; yet since the same lord hath commanded that we must not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness ; it is necessary that great prudence be used to prevent the exorbitances of wanton minds , who make use of liberty to the dishonour and assaulting of publique authority , to the kindling of flames , animating the discontented peopleunto insurrections , enervating the peace and concord of the people of the land , by dis-joynting them in that which is the main bond of unity , the truths of religion : wherein when they are once universally broken , who sees not how wide a door is opened for rome or munster , not only to enter in , butto be welcomed amongst us . the way therefore unto healing , is to endeavour to bring us all home to be gods people , and as his people to be compacted within our selves , to lay aside all dividing distinguishing , invidious titles , & with fraternal affections to coalesce , as far as may be in judgement , however throughly in affection , and so to keep our difforing opinions to our selves , as that the consciences of our brethren may not be grieved , nor the peace of the church of christ endangered thereby . i conclude all , with beseeching you , that since the lord hath taken it as one of his titles to be called the lord that healeth us , exod. 15. 26. that without him , the builder worketh , the watchman keepeth , the statesman counselleth , the physician healeth all in vain , you would ever by prayer and attendance upon god for counsel , so seek his face , and guidance in this weighty work , that when it is finished , and the head-stone of our settlement laid , we may say , it was the lords doing , and marvelous in our eyes ; and may with shoutings cry , grace , grace unto it . finnis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a91746e-280 mat. 23. 19. heb. 13. 10. joh. 15. 4 , 5. isa. 1. 15. isa. 58. 1. amos. 5. 21. aug. in p●● . 31 ber. in can. s●r . 55. bris. de . fo●m . l. 1. p. 81. a discourse concerning the power of excommunication in a christian church, by way of appendix to the irenicum by edward stillingfleet ... stillingfleet, edward, 1635-1699. 1662 approx. 91 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 19 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2004-08 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a61546 wing s5583 estc r38297 17288836 ocm 17288836 106329 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a61546) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 106329) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1103:8) a discourse concerning the power of excommunication in a christian church, by way of appendix to the irenicum by edward stillingfleet ... stillingfleet, edward, 1635-1699. stillingfleet, edward, 1635-1699. irenicum. [2], 31 p. printed for henry mortlock ..., london : 1662. reproduction of original in the cambridge university library. includes bibliographical references. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng church of england -government. excommunication. church polity. 2004-02 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-03 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-06 melanie sanders sampled and proofread 2004-06 melanie sanders text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-07 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a discourse concerning the power of excommunication in a christian church ▪ by way of appendix to the irenicum . by edward stillingfleet , rector of sutton in bedfordshire . london , printed for henry mortlock , at the sign of the phoenix in st. pauls church-yard , neer the little north-door . 1662. a discourse concerning the power of excommunication in a christian church . it is a matter of daily observation and experience in the world , how hard it is to keep the eyes of the understanding clear in its judgement of things , when it is too far engaged in the dust of controversie . it being so very difficult to well manage an impetuous pursuit after any opinion , nothing being more common then to see men outrun their mark , and through the force of their speed to bee carryed as farr beyond it , as others in their opinion fall short of it . there is , certainly , a kind of ebriety of the mind , as well as of the body , which makes it so unstable and pendulous , that it oft times reeles from one extream unto the quite contrary . this , as it is obvious in most eager controvertists of all ages , so especially in such , who have discovered the falsity of an opinion they were once confident of , which they think they can never after run farr enough from : so that while they start at an apparition they so much dread , they run into those untroden paths , wherein they lose both themselves and the truth they sought for . thus wee find it to be in the present controversie , for many out of their just zeal against the extravagancies of those who scrued up church power to so high a peg , that it was thought to make perpetuall dis●ord with the common-wealth , could never think themselves free from so great an inconvenience , till they had melted down all spiritual power into the civil state , and dissolved the church into the common-wealth . but that the world may see i have not been more forward to assert the just power of the magistrate in ecclesiasticalls , as well as civills , then to defend the fundamental rights of the church , i have taken this opportunity , more fully to explain and vindicate that part of the churches power , which lies in reference to offenders ? it being the main thing struck at by those who are the followers of that noted physitian , who handled the church so ill , as to deprive her of her expulsive faculty of noxious humours , and so left her under a miserere mei . i shall therefore endeavour to give the church her due , as well as caesar his , by making good this following principle or hypothesis , upon which the whole hinge of this controversie turnes , viz. that the power of inflicting censures upon offenders in a christian church , is a fundamentall right , resulting from the constitution of the church , as a society by jesus christ , and that the seat of this power is in those officers of the church , who have derived their power originally from the founder of this society , and act by vertue of the laws of it . for the cleare stating of this controversie , it will bee necessary to explain , what that power is , which i attribute to the church , and in what notion the church is to be considered as it exerciseth this power . first , concerning the proper notion of power , by it i cannot see any thing else to bee understood , then a right of governing , or ordering things which belong to a society . and so power implies only a moral faculty in the person enjoying it , to take care ne quid civitas detrimenti capiat , whereby it is evident that every well constituted society must suppose a power within its self of ordering things belonging to its welfare , or else it were impossible , either the being or the rights and priviledges of a society could bee long preserved . power then in its general and abstracted notion , doth not necessarily import either meer authority , or proper coaction , for these to any impartial judgement , will appear to bee rather the severall modes whereby power is exercised , then any proper ingredients of the specifick nature of it ; which in generall , imports no more then a right to govern a constituted society , but how that right shall bee exercised , must bee resolved not from the notion of power , but from the nature and constitution of that particular society in which it is lodged and inherent . it appears then from hence to bee a great mistake and abuse of well natured readers , when all power is necessarily restrained , either to that which is properly coercive , or to that which is meerly arbitrary and onely from consent . the originall of which mistake is , the stating the notion of power from the use of the word , either in ancient roman authors , or else in the civil laws , both which are freely acknowledged to bee strangers to the exercise of any other power , then that which is meerly authoritative and perswasive , or that which is coactive and penal . the ground of which is , because they were ignorant of any other way of conveyance of power , besides external force and arbitrary consent , the one in those called legal societies or civitates , the other collegia and hetaeriae . but to us that do acknowledge that god hath a right of commanding men to what duty hee please himself , and appointing a society upon what terms best please him , and giving a power to particular persons to govern that society , in what way shall tend most to advance the honour of such a society , may easily bee made appear , that there is a kind of power neither properly coactive nor meerly arbitrary , viz. such a one as immediately results from divine institution , and doth suppose consent to submit to it as a necessary duty in all the members of this society . this power , it is evident , is not meerly arbitrary either in the governours or members , for the governours derive their power , or right of governing from the institution of christ and are to bee regulated by his laws in the execution of it , and the members , though their consent bee necessarily supposed , yet that consent is a duty in them , and that duty doth imply their submission to the rulers of this society : neither can this power bee called coactive , in the sense it is commonly taken , for coactive power , and external force are necessary correlates to each other , but wee suppose no such thing as a power of outward force to bee given to the church as such , for that properly belongs to a common-wealth . but the power which i suppose to bee lodged in the church , is such a power as depends upon a law of a superiour , giving right to govern , to particular persons over such a society , and making it the duty of all members of it to submit unto it , upon no other penalties , then the exclusion of them from the priviledges , which that society enjoys . so that supposing such a society , as the church is , to bee of divine institution , and that christ hath appointed officers to rule it , it necessarily follows , that those officers must derive their power , i. e. their right of governing this society , not meerly from consent and confederation of parties , but from that divine institution , on which the society depends . the want of understanding the right notion of power in the sense here set down , is certainiy the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of erastianisme , and that which hath given occasion to so many to question any such thing as power in the church , especially , when the more zealous then judicious defenders of it have rather chosen to hang it upon some doubtful places of scripture , then on the very nature and constitution of the christian church , as a society instituted by jesus christ. this being then the nature of power in general , it is , i suppose clear , that an outward coactive force is not necessary in order to it ; for if some may have a right to govern , and others may bee obliged to obedience to those persons antecedently , to any civil constitution ; then such persons have a just power , to inflict censures upon such as transgress the rules of the society , without any outward force . it is here very impertinent to dispute , what effects such censures can have upon wilful persons without a coactive power ; if i can prove , that there is a right to inflict them in church officers , and an obligation to submit to them in all offenders , i am not to trouble my self with the event of such things as depend upon divine institutions . i know it is the great objection of the followers of erastus , that church censures are inflicted upon persons unwilling to receive them , and therefore must imply external and coactive force , which is repugnant to the nature of a church . but this admits ( according to the principles here established ) of a very easie solution ; for i deny not , that churchpower goes upon consent , but then it s very plain here was an antecedent consent to submit to censures in the very entrance into this society , which is sufficient to denominate it a voluntary act of the persons undergoing it ; and my reason is this , every person entring into a society , parts with his own freedome and liberty , as to matters concerning the governing of it , and professeth submission to the rules and orders of it : now a man having parted with his freedome already , cannot reassume it when hee please , for then hee is under an obligation to stand to the covenants made at his entrance ; and consequently his undergoing what shall bee laid upon him by the laws of this society , must bee supposed to bee voluntary as depending upon his consent at first entrance , which in all societies must bee supposed to hold still , else there would follow nothing but confusion in all societies in the world , if every man were at liberty to break his covenants when any thing comes to lye upon him according to the rules of the society , which hee out of some private design would bee unwilling to undergo . thus much may serve to settle aright the notion of power ; the want of understanding which , hath caused all the confusion of this controversie . the next thing is , in what notion wee are to consider the church , which is made the subject of this power ? as to which wee are to consider ; this power either as to it 's right or in actu primo , or as to it's exercise , or in actu secundo : now if wee take this power as to the fundamental right of it , then it belongs to that universal church of christ , which subsists as a visible society , by vertue of that law of christ , which makes an owning the profession of christianity the duty of all church members . if wee consider this power in the exercise of it then ( it being impossible that the universal church should perform the executive part of this power relating to offences ) i suppose it lodged in that particular society of christians , which are united together in one body in the community of the same government ; but yet , so as , that the administration of this power , doth not belong to the body of the society considered complexly , but to those officers in it , whose care and charge it is , to have a peculiar oversight and inspection over the church , and to redress all disorders in it . thus the visive faculty is fundamentally lodged in the soul , yet all exterior acts of sight are performed by the eyes , which are the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 overseers of the body , as the other are of the church , so that the exercise and administration of this power , belongs to the special officers and governours of the church , none else being capable of exercising this power of the church as such , but they on whom it is setled by the founder of the church it 's self . this society of the church may bee again considered , either as subsisting without any influence from the civil power , or as it is owned by , and incorporated into a christian state . i therefore demand , whether it bee absolutely necessary for the subsistence of this christian society , to bee upheld by the civil power or no ? and certainly none who consider the first and purest ages of the christian church , can give any entertainment to the affirmative , because then the church flourished in it's greatest purity , not only when not upheld , but when most violently opposed by the civil power ; if so , then it 's being united with the civil state is only accidental , as to the constitution of a church ; and if this bee only accidental , then it must bee supposed furnished with every thing requisite to it 's well ordering , antecedenty to any such union , and abstractly from it . for can wee imagine our blessed saviour should institute a society , and leave it destitute of means to uphold it's self , unless it fell into the hands of the civil power ? or that hee left every thing tending thereto , meerly to prudence , and the arbritrary constitutions of the persons joyning together in this society ? did our saviour take care there should bee a society , and not provide for means to uphold it ? nay , it is evident , hee not only appointed a society , but officers to rule it ; had those officers then a right to govern it or no , by vertue of christs institution of them ? if not , they were rather bibuli than caesares , cyphers than consuls in the church of god. if they had a power to govern , doth not that necessarily imply a right to inflict censures on offenders ? unless 〈◊〉 will suppose that either there can bee no offenders in a christian church , or that those offenders do not violate the laws of the society , or there bee some prohibition for them to exercise their power over them ( which is to give power with one hand , and take it away with the other ) or that this power cannot extend so far as to exclude any from the priviledges of the church , which is the thing to bee discussed . having thus cleared our way , i now come to the resolution of the question its self , in order to which i shall endeavour to demonstrate with what evidence the subject is capable of these following things . first that the church is a peculiar society in its own nature , distinct from the common-wealth . secondly , that the power of the church over its members doth not arise from meer confederation or consent of parties . thirdly , that this power of the church doth extend to the exclusion of offenders from the priviledges of it . fourthly , that the fundamental rights of the church do not escheat to the common-wealth upon their being united in a christian state. if these principles bee established , the churches power will stand upon them , as on a firm and unmoveable basis . i begin with the first . that the church is a peculiar society in its own nature , distinct from the common-wealth , which i prove by these arguments . 1 those societies , which are capable of subsisting apart from each other , are really , and in their own nature , distinct from one another , but so it is with the church and common-wealth . for there can bee no greater evidence of a reall distinction than mutual separation ; and i think the proving the possibility of the souls existing , separate from the body , is one of the strongest arguments to prove it to bee a substance really distinct from the body , to which it is united ; although wee are often fain to go the other way to work , and to prove possibility of separation from other arguments evincing the soul to bee a distinct substance ; but the reason of that is for want of evidence as to the state of separate souls , and their visible existence which is repugnant to the immateriality of their natures . but now , as to the matter in hand , wee have all evidence desirable , for wee are not put to prove possibil●●y of separation , meerly from the different constitution of the things united , but wee have evidence to sense of it , that the churh hath subsisted when it hath been not onely separated from but persecuted by all civil power . it is with many men as to the union of church and state , as it is with others , as to the union of the soul and body , when they observe how close the union is , and how much the soul makes use of the animal spirits in most of its operations , and how great a sympathy there is between them , that , like hyppocrates his twins , they laugh and weep ' together , they are shrewdly put to it , how to fancy the soul to bee any thing else then a more vigorous mode of matter ; so these observing how close an union and dependence there is between the church and state in a christian common-wealth , and how much the church is beholding to the civil power in the administration of its functions , are apt to think that the church is nothing but a higher mode of a common-wealth , considered as christian. but when it is so evident that the church hath , and may subsist supposing it abstracted from all civil power , it may bee a sufficient demonstration that however neer they may be when united , yet they are really and in their own nature , distinct from each other . which was the thing to bee proved . 2 those are distinct societies , which have every thing distinct in their nature from each other , which belong to the constitution or government of them ; but this is evident , as to the church and common-wealth , which will appear , because their charter is distinct , or that which gives them their being as a society : civil societies are founded upon the necessity of particular mens parting with their peculiar rights , for the preservation of themselves , which was the impulsive cause of their entring into societies , but that which actually speaks them to bee a society , is the mutual consent of the several parties joyning together , whereby they make themselves to bee one body ; and to have one common interest . so cicero de repub. defines populus , to bee caetus multitudinis , juris consensu et utilitatis communione sociatus . there is no doubt , but gods general providence , is as evidently seen in bringing the world into societies and making them live under government , as in disposing all particular events which happen in those societies ; but yet the way , which providence useth in the constitution of these societies , is by inclining men to consent to associate for their mutual benefit and advantage : so that natural reason consulting for the good of mankinde , as to those rights which men enjoy in common with each other , was the main foundation upon which all civil societies were erected . wee finde no positive law enacting the beeing of civil societies , because nature it's self would prompt men for their own conveniencies to enter into them . but the ground and foundation of that society , which we call a church , is a matter which natural reason and common notions can never reach to ; and therefore an associating for the preserving of such , may bee a philosophical society , but a christian it cannot bee : and that would make a christian church to bee nothing else but a society of essens or an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of pythagorians , who do either not understand or not consider whereon this christian society is founded ; for it is evident they look on it as a meerly voluntary thing , that is not at all setled by any divine positive law. the truth is , there is no principle more consistent with the opinion of those who deny any church power in a christian state , then this is , and it is that , which every one , who will make good his ground must bee driven to ; for it is evident , that in matters meerly voluntary , and depending only on consideration , such things being lyable to a magistrates power , there can be no plea from mutual consent to justifie any opposition to supream authority in a common-wealth . but then , how such persons can bee christians , when the magistrates would have them to bee otherwise , i cannot understand ; nor how the primitive martyrs were any other then a company of fools or mad-men , who would hazard their lives , for that which was a meer arbritrary thing , and which they had no necessary obligation upon them to profess . mistake mee not , i speak not here of meer acts of discipline , but of the duty of outward professing christianity ; if this bee a duty , then a christian society is setled by a positive law , if it bee not a duty , then they are fools who suffer for it : so that this question resolved into it's principles , leads us higher than wee think for , and the main thing in debate must bee , whether there bee an obligation upon conscience for men to associate in the profession of christianity or no ? if there bee , then the church , which is nothing else but such an association , is established upon a positive law of christ ; if there bee not , then those inconveniencies follow , which are already mentioned . wee are told indeed by the leviathan with confidence enough , that no precepts of the gospel are law , till enacted by civil authority ; but it is little wonder , that hee , who thinks an immaterial substance implies a contradiction , should think as much of calling any thing a law , but what hath a civil sanction . but i suppose all those , who dare freely own a supreme and infinite essence to have been the creator , and to bee the ruler of the world , will acknowledge his power to oblige conscience , without being beholding to his own creature to enact his laws , that men might bee bound to obey them . was the great god fain to bee beholding to the civil authority hee had over the jewish common-wealth ( their government being a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) to make his laws obligatory to the consciences of the jews ? what , had not they their beings from god ? and can there bee any greater ground of obligation to obedience , than from thence ? whence comes civil power to have any right to oblige men more , than god , considered as governour of the world , can have ? can there bee indeed no other laws according to the leviathans hypothesis , but only the law of nature and civil laws ? but i pray whence comes the obligation to either of these , that these are not as arbitrary , as all other agreements are ? and is it not as strong a dictate of nature as any can bee ( supposing that there is a god ) that a creature which receives it's being from another , should bee bound to obey him , not only in the resultancies of his own nature , but with the arbitrary constitutions of his will : was adam bound to obey god or no , as to that positive precept of eating the forbiden fruit , if no civil sanction had been added to that law ? the truth is , such hypotheses as these are , when they are followed close home , will bee found to kennel in that black den , from whence they are loath to bee thought to have proceeded . and now , supposing , that every full declaration of the will of christ , as to any positive institution , hath the force and power of a law upon the consciences of all , to whom it is sufficiently proposed : i proceed to make appear , that such a divine positive law there is , for the existence of a church , as a visible body and society in the world ; by which i am far from meaning such a conspicuous society , that must continue in a perpetual visibility in the same place ; i finde not the least intimation of any such thing in scripture ; but that there shall alwaies bee some where or other , in the world , a society owning and professing christianity , may bee easily deduced from thence ; and especially on this account , that our saviour hath required this , as one of the conditions in order to eternal felicity , that all those who beleeve in their hearts , that jesus is the christ , must likewise confess him with their mouths to the world : and therefore , as long as there are men to beleeve in christ , there must bee men that will not bee ashamed to associate , on the account of the doctrine hee hath promulged to the world . that one phrase in the new testament , so frequently used by our blessed saviour , of the kingdome of heaven ( importing a gospel state ) doth evidently declare a society , which was constituted by him , on the principles of the gospel covenant . wherefore should our saviour call disciples , and make apostles , and send them abroad with full commission to gather and initiate disciples by baptism ; did hee not intend a visible society for his church ? had it not been enough for men to have cordially beleeved the truth of the gospel , but they must bee enter'd in a solemn visible way , and joyn in participation of visible symbols of bread and wine , but that our saviour required external profession and society in the gospel as a necessary duty , in order to obtaining the priviledges conveyed by his magna charta in the gospel . i would fain know , by what argument wee can prove , that any humane legislator , did ever intend a common-wealth to bee governed according to his mode , by which wee cannot prove that christ by a positive law , did command such a society , as should be governed in a visible manner , as other societies are ? did he not appoint officers himself in the church , and that of many ranks and degrees ? did hee not invest those officers with authority to rule his church ? is it not laid as a charge on them , to take heed to that flock over which god had made them overseers ? are there not rules laid down for the peculiar exercise of their government over the church in all the parts of it ? were not these officers admitted into their function by a most solemn visible rite of imposition of hands ? and are all these solemn transactions a meer peece of sacred pageantry ? and they will appear to bee little more , if the society of the church bee a meer arbitrary thing , depending onely upon consent and confederation , and not subsisting by vertue of any charter from christ , or some positive law , requiring all christians to joyn in church society together . but if now from hence it appears ( as certainly it cannot but appear ) that this society of the church doth subsist by vertue of a divine positive law , then it must of necessity be distinct from any civil society , and that on these accounts , first because there is an antecedent obligation on conscience to associate on the account of christianity , whether humane laws prohibit or command it . from whence , of necessity it follows , that the constitution of the church is really different from that of the common-wealth ; because whether the common-wealth bee for , or against this society , all that own ir are bound to profess it openly , and declare themselves members of it . whereas were the church and common-wealth really and formally the same , all obligation to church society would arise meerly from the legislative power of the common-wealth . but now there being a divine law , binding in conscience , whose obligation cannot bee superseded by any humane law , it is plain and evident , where are such vastly different obligations , there are different powers ; and in this sense i know no incongruity in admitting imperium in imperio , if by it wee understand no external coactive power , but an internal power laying obligation on conscience , distinct from the power lodged in a common-wealth considered as such . an outward coactive power was alwayes disowned by christ , but certainly not an internall power over conscience to oblige all his disciples to what duties hee thought fit . secondly i argue from those officers , whose rights to govern this society are founded on that charter , whereby the society its self subsists . now i would willingly know why , when our saviour disowned all outward power in the world , yet he should constitute a society and appoint officers in it , did hee not intend a peculiar distinct society from the other societies of the world . and therefore the argument frequently used against church-power , because it hath no outward force with it by the constitution of christ , is a strong argument to mee of the peculiarity of a christian society from a common-wealth , because christ so instituted it , as not to have it ruled at first by any outward force or power . when christ saith his kingdome was not of this world ; hee implies , that hee had a society that was governed by his laws in the world , yet distinct from all mundane societies : had not our saviour intended his church to have been a peculiar society , distinct from a common-wealth , why our saviour should interdict the apostles the use of a civil coactive power : or why instead of sending abroad apostles to preach the gospel , hee did not imploy the governours of common-wealths to have inforced christianity by laws and temporal edicts , and the several magistrates to have impowred several persons under them to preach the gospel in their several territories ? and can any thing bee more plain , by our saviours taking a contrary course , then that hee intended a church society to bee distinct from civil , and the power belonging to it , ( as well as the officers ) to bee of a different nature from that which is settled in a common-wealth . i here suppose , that christ hath by a positive law established the government of his church upon officers of his own appointment ; which i have largely proved elsewhere , and therefore suppose it now . thirdly , i argue from the peculiar rights belonging to these societies . for if every one born in the common-wealth , have not thereby a right to the priviledges of the church ; nor every one by being of the church , any right to the benefits of the common-wealth ; it must necessarily follow , that these are distinct from one another . if any one by being of the common-wealth , hath right to church priviledges , then every one born in a common-wealth may challenge a right to the lords supper without baptism or open professing christianity , which i cannot think any will bee very ready to grant . now there being by divine appointment the several rights of baptisme and the lords supper , as peculiar badges of the church as a visible society , it is evident , christ did intend it a society distinct from the common-wealth . fourthly , i argue from the different ends of these societies , a common-wealth is constituted for civil ends , and the church for spiritual : for ends are to be judged by the primary constitution , but now it is plain , the end of civil society is for preservation of mens rights as men ( therefore magistracy is called by st. peter 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) but this christian society doth not respect men under the connotation of men but as christians . the answer given to this is very short , and insufficient when it is said , that every man in a common-wealth , is to act upon spiritual accounts and ends : for there is a great deal of difference between christianities having an influence upon mens actings in a common-wealth , and making a society the same with a common-wealth . to argue therefore from one to another , is a shortness of discourse i cannot but wonder at : unless it could bee proved , that christianity aimed at nothing else but regulating men in the affairs of a common-wealth , which is a taske i suppose will not bee undertaken . lastly , i argue from the peculiar offences against this society , which are , or may bee distinct from those against a common-wealth , i deny not , but most times they are the same ; but frequently they differ , and when they are the same , yet the consideration of them is different in the church and common-wealth , for which i shall suppose the six arguments produced in the last chapter of the first part to stand good , which will strongly hold to excommunication in the christian church , though there produced only for the jewish . i would fain know what is to bee done in many offences , known to bee against the laws of christ , and which tend to the dishonour of the christian society , which the civil and municipal laws , either do not , or may not take cognizance of ? thus much may serve , as i think to make evident , that the church in it's own nature is a peculiar society distinct from a common-wealth , which was the first proposition to bee proved . the second is , that the power of the church over it's members in case of offences , doth not arise meerly from confederation and consent , though it doth suppose it . this church power may bee considered two waies . either , first , as it implies the right in some of inflicting censures . or secondly , as it implies in others , the duty of submitting to censures inflicted ; now as to both these , i shall prove that their original is higher than meer confederation . 1. as to the right of inflicting censures , on these accounts . first , what ever society doth subsist by vertue of a divine constitution , doth by vertue thereof derive all power for it's preservation , in peace , unity , and purity ; but it is plain , that a power of censuring offenders , is necessary for the churches preservation in peace and purity ; and it is already proved , that the church hath it's charter from christ , and therefore from him it hath a power to inflict punishments on offenders , suitable to the nature of the society they are of . i am very prone to think that the ground of all the mistakes on this subject have risen from hence , that some , imprudently enough , have fixt the original of this power on some ambiguous places of scripture , which may , and it may bee , ought to bee taken in a different sense ; and their adversaries , finding those places weak and insufficient proofes of such a power , have from thence rejected any such kinde of power at all ; but certainly if wee should reject every truth that is weakly proved by some who have undertaken it , i know no opinion would bid so fair for acceptance as scepticisme , and that in reference to many weighty & important truths ; for how weakly have some proved the existence of a deity , the immortality of the soul , and the truth of the scriptures , by such arguments , that if it were enough to overthrow an opinion to bee able to answer some arguments brought for it , atheism it's self would become plausible . it can bee then no evidence , that a thing is not true , because some arguments will not prove it ; and truly , as to the matter in hand , i am fully of the opinion of the excellent h. grotius , speaking of excommunication in the christian church : neque ad eam rem peculiare praeceptum desideratur , cum ecclesiae caetu , a christo semel constituto , omnia illa imperata censeri debent , sine quibus ejus caetûs puritas retineri non potest . and therefore men spend needless pains to prove an institution of this power by some positive precept , when christs founding his church , as a particular society , is sufficient proof hee hath endowed it with this fundamental right , without which the society , were arena sine calce , a company of persons without any common tye of union among them ; for if there bee any such union , it must depend on some conditions , to bee performed by the members of that society , which how could they require from them , if they have not power to exclude them upon non-performance ? 2. i prove the divine original of this power from the special appointment and designation of particular officers by jesus christ , for the ruling this society . now i say , that law which provides there shall bee officers to govern , doth give them power to govern , suitable to the nature of their society : either then you must deny , that christ hath by an unalterable institution appointed a gospel ministry , or that this ministry hath no power in the church , or that their power extends not to excommunication . the first i have already proved , the second follows from their appointment , for by all the titles given to church officers in scripture ; it appears they had a power over the church , ( as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ) all which as you well know , do import a right to govern the society over which they are set . and that this power should not extend to a power to exclude , convict offenders , seems very strange , when no other punishment can bee more suitable to the nature of the society than this is ; which is a debarring him from the priviledges of that society , which the offender hath so much dishonoured . can there bee any punishment less imagined towards contumacious offenders then this is , or that carries in it less of outward and coactive force , it implying nothing but what the offender himself freely yeilded to at his entrance into this society ? all that i can find replyed by any of the adversaryes of the opinion i here assert , to the argument drawn from the institution and titles of the officers of the church , is , that all those titles which are given to the ministers of the gospel in the new testament , that do import rule and government , are all to bee taken in a spirituall sense , as they are christs ministers and ambassadors to preach his word and declare his will to his church . so that all power such persons conceive to lye in those titles , is onely doctrinal and declarative ; but how true that is , let any one judge , that considers these things . 1. that there was certainly a power of discipline then in the churches constituted by the apostles , which is most evident not only from the passages relating to offendors in saint pauls epistles , especially to the corinthians and thessalonians , but from the continued practice of succeeding ages , manifested by tertullian , cyprian , and many others . there being then a power of discipline in apostolical churches , there was a necessity it should be administred by some persons who had the care of those churches ; and who were they but the several pastors of them ? it being then evident that there was such a power , doth it not stand to common sense it should be implyed in such titles which in their natural importance do signifie a right to govern , as the names of pastors and rulers do ? 2. there is a diversity in scripture made between pastors and teachers , ephes. 4.11 . though this may not ( as it doth not ) imply a necessity of two distinct offices in the church , yet it doth a different respect and connotation in the same person ▪ and so imports that ruling carries in it somewhat more then meer teaching , and so the power implyed in pastors to be more then meerly doctrinal , which is all i contend for , viz. a right to govern the flock committed to their charge . 3. what possible difference can be assigned between the elders that rule well , and those which labour in word and doctrine , ( 1 tim. 5.17 . ) if all their ruling were meerly labouring in the word and doctrine ? and all their governing nothing but teaching ? i intend not to prove an office of rulers distinct from teachers from hence ( which i know neither this place , nor any other will do ) but that the formal conception of ruling , is different from that of teaching . 4. i argue from the analogy between the primitive churches and the synagogues , that as many of the names were taken from thence where they carried a power of discipline with them , so they must do in some proportion in the church ; or it were not easie understanding them . it is most certain the presbyters of the synagogue had a power of ruling ; and can you conceive the bishops and presbyters of the church had none , when the societies were much of the same constitution , and the government of the one was transcribed from the other , as hath been already largely proved ? 5. the acts attributed to pastors in scripture , imply a power of governing , distinct from meer teaching ; such are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , used for a right to govern , matth. 2.6 . revel . 12.5 . — 19.15 . which word is attributed to pastors of churches in reference to their flocks . acts 20.28 . 1 pet. 5.2 . and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is applyed to ministers , when they are so frequently called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which notes praesidentiam eum potestate ; for hesychius renders is by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; and the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 at athens had certainly a power of government in them . 6. the very word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is attributed to those who have over-sight of churches , 1 cor. 12.8 . by which it is certainly evident , that a power more then doctrinal is understood , as that it could not then be understood of a power meerly civil . and this i suppose may suffice to vindicate this argument from the titles of church-officers in the new testament , that they are not insignificant things , but the persons who enjoyed them had a right to govern the society over which the holy-ghost hath made them over-seers . 3. i argue that church power ariseth not meerly from consent , because the church may exercise her power on such who have not actually confederated with her ; which is in admitting members into the church : for if the church-officers have power to judge whether persons are fit to be admitted , they have power to exclude from admission such whom they judge unfit , and so their power is exercised on those who are not confederated . to this it may be answered , that the consent to be judged , gives the church power over the person suing for admission . i grant it doth , as to that particular person , but the right in general of judging concerning admission , doth argue an antecedent power to an actual confederation . for i will suppose that christ should now appoint some officers to found a church , and gather a society of christians together , where there hath been none before : i now ask , whether these officers have power to admit any into the church or no ? this i suppose cannot be denyed , for to what end else were they appointed ? if it be granted they have power to admit persons , and thereby make a church , then they had power antecedently to any confederation ; for the confederation was subsequent to their admission ; and therefore they who had power to admit , could not derive their power from confederation . this argument , to me , puts the case out of dispute , that all church-power cannot arise from meer confederation . and that which further evidenceth that the power of the church doth not arise from meer consent , is that deed of gift whereby our blessed saviour did confer the power of the keyes on the apostle peter , as the representative in that action of the whole colledge of the apostles and governours of the church , of which power all the apostles were actually infeoffed , john 20.23 . by which power of the keyes is certainly meant some administration in the church , which doth respect it as a visible society , in which sense the church is so frequently called , as in that place , the kingdom of heaven ; and in all probability the administration intended here by the power of the keyes , is that we are now discoursing of , viz. the power of admission into the church of christ in order to the pardon of the sins of all penitent believers , and the shutting out of such who were manifestly unworthy of so holy a communion . so that the power of the keyes doth not primarily respect exclusion out of the church , and receiving into it again upon absolution , but it chiefly respects the power of admission into the church , though by way of connotation and analogy of reason it will carry the other along with it . for if the apostles as governours of the church were invested with a power of judging of mens fitness for admission into the church as members of it , it stands to the highest reason that they should have thereby likewise a power conveyed to them , of excluding such as are unworthy after their admission , to maintain communion with the church . so that this interpretation of the power of the keyes , is far from invalidating the power of the church , as to its censuring offendors ; all that it pretends to , is only giving a more natural and genuine sense of the power of the keyes , which will appear so to be , if we consider these things . 1. that this power was given to saint peter before any christian church was actually formed , which ( as i have elsewhere made manifest ) was not done till after christs resurrection ; when christ had given the apostles their commission to go preach and baptize , &c. matth. 28.19 . is it not therefore far more rational that the power of the keyes here given , should respect the founding of a church and admission into it , then ejection out of it ( before it was in being ) and receiving into it again ? and this we find likewise remarkably fulfilled in the person of the apostle peter , who opened the door of admission into the christian church , both to jews and gentiles . so the jews by his sermon at pentecost , when about 3000. souls were brought into the church of christ. so the gentiles , as is most evident in the story of cornelius , acts 10.28 . who was the first fruits of the gentiles . so that if we should yield so far to the great inhancers of saint peters power , that something was intended peculiar to his person in the keyes given him by our saviour , we hereby see how rationally it may be understood without the least advantage to the extravagant pretensions of saint peters pretended successors . 2. the pardon of sin in scripture is most annexed to baptism and admission into the church , and thence it seems evident that the loosing of sin should be by admitting into the church by baptism , in the same sense by which baptism is said to save us , and it is called the washing of regeneration , respecting the spiritual advantages which come by admission into the church of christ ; and so they are said to have their sins bound upon them , who continue refractory in their sins , as simon magus is said to be in the bonds of iniquity . 3. the metaphor of the keyes referrs most to admission into the house , and excluding out of it , rather then ejecting any out of it , and re-admitting them . thus when eliakim is said to have the keyes of the house of david , it was in regard of his power to open and shut upon whom he pleased . and thus cyprian , as our learned mr. thorndike observes , understands the power of binding and loosing in this sense , in his epistle to john , where speaking of the remission of sins in baptism , he brings these very words of our saviour to peter as the evidence of it ; that what he should loose on earth should be loosed in heaven ; and concludes with this sentence . vnde intelligimus non nisi in ecclesiâ praepositis & in evangelicâ lege ac dominicâ ordinati●ne fundatis licere baptizare , & remissam peccatorum dare ; foris autem nec ligari aliquid posse nec solvi , ubi non sit qui ligare possit aut solvere . that which i now inferr from this discourse is , that the power of the church doth not arise from meer consent and confederation , both because this power doth respect those who have not actually consented to it , and because it is settled upon the governours of the church by divine institution . thus it appears that the right of inflicting censures doth not result meerly ex confederatâ disciplinâ , which was the thing to be proved . the like evidence may be given , for the duty of submitting to penalties or church-censures in the members of the church : which that it ariseth not from meer consent of parties , will appear on these accounts . 1. every person who enters this society , is bound to consent , before he doth it , because of the obligation lying upon conscience to an open profession of christianity , presently upon conviction of the understanding of the truth and certainty of christian religion . for when once the mind of any rational man is so far wrought upon by the influence of the divine spirit , as to discover the most rational and undoubted evidences which there are of the truth of christianity , he is presently obliged to profess christ openly , to worship him solemnly , to assemble with others for instruction and participation of gospel-ordinances ; and thence it follows that there is an antecedent obligation upon conscience to associate with others , and consequently to consent to be governed by the rulers of the society which he enters into . so that this submission to the power of church-officers in the exercise of discipline upon offendors , is implyed in the very conditions of christianity , and the solemn professing and undertaking of it . 2. it were impossible any society should be upheld , if it be not laid by the founder of the society as the necessary duty of all members to undergo the penalties which shall be inflicted by those who have the care of governing that society , so they be not contrary to the laws , nature , and constitution of it . else there would be no provision made for preventing divisions and confusions which will happen upon any breach made upon the laws of the society . now this obligation to submission to censures , doth speak something antecedently to the confederation , although the expression of it lies in the confederation its self . by this i hope we have made it evident that it is nothing else but a mistake in those otherwise learned persons , who make the power of censures in the christian-church to be nothing else but a lex cenfederatae disciplinae , whereas this power hath been made appear to be derived from a higher original then the meer arbitrary consent of the several members of the church associating together : and how far the examples of the synagogues under the law , are from reaching that of christian churches in reference to this , because in these the power is conveyed by the founder of the society , and not left to any arbitrary constitutions , as it was among the jews in their synagogues . it cannot be denyed but consent is supposed , and confederation necessary , in order to church power , but that is rather in regard of the exercise , then the original of it ; for although i affirm the original of this power to be of divine institution , yet in order to the exercise of it in reference to particular persons ( who are not mentioned in the charter of the power its self ) it is necessary that the persons on whom it is exerted , should declare their consent and submission either by words or actions , to the rules and orders of this society . having now proved that the power of the church doth not arise from meer consent of parties , the next grand inquiry is concerning the extent of this power , whether it doth reach so far as to excommunication ? for some men who will not seem wholly to deny all power in the church over offendors , nor that the church doth subsist by divine institution , yet do wholly deny any such power as that of excommunication , and seem rather to say that church officers may far more congruously to their office inflict any other mulct upon offendors , then exclude them from participation of communion with others in the ordinances and sacraments of the gospel : in order therefore to the clearing of this , i come to the third proposition . that the power which christ hath given to the officers of his church , doth extend to the exclusion of contumacious offendors from the priviledges which this society enjoyes . in these terms i rather choose to fix it , then in those crude expressions , wherein erastus and some of his followers would state the question , and some of their imprudent adversaries have accepted it , viz. whether church-officers have power to exclude any from the eucharist , ob moralem impuritatem ? and the reasons why i wave those terms , are , 1. i must confess my self yet unsatisfied as to any convincing argument , whereby it can be proved that any were denyed admission to the lords supper , who were admitted to all other parts of church-society , and owned as members in them . i cannot yet see any particular reason drawn from the nature of the lords supper above all other parts of divine worship , which should confine the censures of the church meerly to that ordinance ; and so to make the eucharist bear the same office in the body of the church , which our new anatomists tell us the parenchyme of the liver doth in the natural body , viz. to be colum sanguinis , to serve as a kind of strainer to separate the more gross and faeculent parts of the blood from the more pure and spirituous ; so the lords supper to strain out the more impure members of the church from the more holy and spiritual . my judgement then is , that excommunication relates immediately to the cutting a person off from communion with the churches visible society , constituted upon the ends it is ; but because communion is not visibly discerned but in administration and participation of gospel ordinances , therefore exclusion doth chiefly refer to these , and because the lords supper is one of the highest priviledges which the church enjoyes , therefore it stands to reason that censures should begin there . and in that sense suspension from the lords supper of persons apparently unworthy , may be embraced as a prudent , lawful and convenient abatement of the greater penalty of excommunication , and so to stand on the same general grounds that the other doth ; for qui potest majus , potest etiam minus , which will hold as well in moral as natural power , if there be no prohibition to the contrary , nor peculiar reason as to the one more then to the other . 2. i dislike the terms ob moralem impuritatem , on this account , because i suppose they were taken up by erastus ▪ and from him by others as the controversie was managed concerning excommunication among the jews , viz. whether it were meerly because of ceremonial , or else likewise because of moral impurity . as to which i must ingenuously acknowledge erastus hath very much the advantage of his adversaries , clearly proving that no persons under the law were excluded the temple-worship because of moral impurity . but then withall i think he hath gained little advantage to his cause by the great and successful pains he hath taken in the proving of that ; my reason is , because the temple-worship or the sacrifices under the law were in some sense propitiatory , as they were the adumbrations of that grand sacrifice which was to be offered up for the appeasing of gods wrath , viz. the blood of christ ; therefore to have excluded any from participation of them , had been to exclude them from the visible way of obtaining pardon of sin ( which was not to be had without shedding of blood , as the apostle tells us ) and from testifying their faith towards god , and repentance from dead works . but now under the gospel those ordinances , which suppose admission into the church by baptism , do thereby suppose an alsufficient sacrifice offered for the expiation of sin , and consequently the subsequent priviledges do not immediately relate to the obtaining of that , but a grateful comemmoration of the death of christ , and a celebration of the infinite mercy and goodness of god in the way of redemption found out by the death of his son. and therefore it stands to great reason that such persons , who by their profane and unworthy lives dishonour so holy a profession , should not be owned to be as good and sound members of the society founded on so sacred a foundation , as the most christian and religious persons . to this , i know nothing can be objected , but that first , the passeover was commemorative among the jews ; and secondly , that the priviledges of that people were then very great above other people , and therefore if god had intended any such thing as excommunication among his people , it would have been in use then . to these i answer . 1. i grant the passeover was commemorative as to the occasion of its institution ; but then it was withall typical and annunciative of that lamb of god who was to take away the sins of the world , and therefore no person who desired expiation of sins , was to be debard from it ; but the lords supper under the gospel hath nothing in it propitiatory , but is intended as a feast upon a sacrifice and a federal rite , as hath been fully cleared by a very learned person in his discourse about the true notion of the lords supper . 2. i grant the jews had very many priviledges above other nations : nay so far , that the whole body of the people were looked upon as gods chosen , and peculiar and holy people ; and from thence i justly infer that whatever exclusion was among the people of the jews from their society , will far better hold as an argument for excommunication under the christian church , then if it had been a meer debarring from their levitical worship . and that i should far sooner insist upon , from the reason assigned , as the ground of excommunication , then the other infirm and profligated argument ; and so the exclusion out of the camp of israel and the cerith among the jews ( whatever we understand by it ) may à pari hold to a ground of exclusion from the christian society : in imitation of which , i rather suppose that exclusion out of the synagogues was after taken up , rather then as a meer out-lawry , when they were deprived of civill power . the question then being thus clearly stated , it amounts to this , whether under the gospel , there be any power in the officers of the church by vertue of divine institution to exclude any offenders out of the christian society , for transgressing the laws of it ? and according to our former propositions , i suppose it will be sufficient to prove that power to be of divine institution , if i prove it to be fundamentally and intrinsecally resident in the society its self . for what ever doth immediately result from the society it self , must have the same original which the subject hath , because this hath the nature of an inseparable property resulting from its constitution . for the clearing of which , i shall lay down my thoughts of it as clearly and methodically as i can ; and that in these following hypotheses . 1. where there is a power of declaring any person to be no true member of the society he is in , there is a formal power of excommunication : for this is all which i intend by it , viz. an authoritative pronouncing virtute officii , any convict offender to have forfeited his interest in the church as a christian society : and to lose all the priviledges of i● : so that if this power be lodged in any church officer , then he hath power formally to excommunicate . 2. where the enjoyment of the priviledges of a society is not absolute and necessary , but depends upon conditions to be performed by every member , of which the society is judge , there is a power in the rulers of that society to debarr any person from such priviledges , upon non-performance of the conditions . as supposing the jus civitatis to depend upon defending the rights of the city ; upon a failing in referente to this in any person admitted to citizen-ship , the rulers of the city have the same power to take that right away , which they had at first to give it ; because that right was never absolutely given , but upon supposition that the person did not overthrow the ends for which it was bestowed upon him . 3. the church is such a society in which communion is not absolute and necessary , but it doth depend on the performance of some conditions , of which the governours of it are the competent judges : and that appears , 1. because the admission into the church , depends upon conditions to be judged by pastors , as in case of adult persons requiring baptism , and the children of infidels being baptized : in both which cases it is evident that conditions are prerequisite , of which the pastors are judges . 2. because the priviledges of this society do require a separation from other societies in the world , and calls for greater holiness and purity of life ; and those very priviledges are pledges of greater benefits which belong only to persons qualified with suitable conditions ; it would therefore be a very great dishonour to this society , if it lay as common and open as other societies in the world do , and no more qualifications required from the members of it . 3. we have instances in the sacred records of apostolical times , of such scandals which have been the ground of the exclusion of the persons guilty of them from the priviledges of the christian society . and here i suppose we may ( notwithstanding all the little evasions which have been found out ) fix on the incestuous person in the church of corinth . as to which i lay not the force of the argument upon the manner of execution of the censure then , viz. by delegation from an apostle , or the apostolical rod , or delivering to satan ; for i freely grant that these did then import an extraordinary power in the apostles over offenders ; but i say the ground and reason of the exercise of that power in such an extraordinary manner at that time , doth still continue , although not in that visible extraordinary effect which it then had . and whatever practice is founded upon grounds perpetual and common , that practice must continue as long as the grounds of it do , and the churches capacity will admit ; ( which hypothesis is the only rational foundation on which episcopal government in the church doth stand firm and unshaken , and which in the former discourse i am far from undermining of , as any intelligent reader may perceive ) now i say that it is evident that the reasons of the apostles censure of that person , are not fetched from the want of christian magistrates , but from such things which will hold as long as any christian church : which are the dishonour of the society . 1 corinth . 5 , 1. the spreading of such corruptions further , if they pass uncensured . 1 corinth . 5.6 . and amendment of the person , 1 cor. 5.5 . upon these pillars the power of censures rests it self in the church of god , which are the main grounds of penalties in all societies whatsoever , viz. the preservation of the honour of them , and preventing of further mischief , and doing good to the offending party . and that which seems to add a great deal of weight to this instance , is , that the apostle checks the corinthians that before the exercise of the apostolical rod , they were not of themselves sensible of so great a dishonour to the church as that was , and had not used some means for the removing such a person from their society . and ye are puffed up , and have not rather mourned that he that hath done this deed may be taken away from among you , 1 corinth . 5.2 . therein implying , that whether there had been such a thing in the church , or no , as the apostolical rod , it had been the duty of a christian society to have done their endeavour in order to the removing such a person from their number . but further , i cannot understand , how it should be a duty in christians to withdraw from every brother who walketh disorderly , and church-officers not to have power to pronounce such a person to be withdrawn from , which amounts to excommunication . it is not to me at all material , whether they did immediately relate to civil or sacred converse , ( concerning which there is so much dispute ) for in which soever we place it , if church-officers have a power to pronounce such a person to be withdrawn from , they have a power of excommunication ; so we consider this penalty as inflicted on the person in his relation to the society as a christian ; and withall , how nearly conjoyned their civil and spiritual eating were together , 1 corinth , 11.20 , 21. and how strongly the argument will hold from civil to sacred , viz. à remotione unius ad remotionem alterius , not from any fancyed pollution in sacris from the company of wicked men , but from the dishonour reflecting on the society from such unworthy persons partaking of the highest priviledges of it . thus from these three hypotheses this corollary follows , that where any persons in a church do by their open and contumacious offences , declare to the world that they are far from being the persons they were supposed to be in their admission into the church , there is a power resident in the pastors of the church to debar such persons from the priviledges of it , and consequently from communion in the lords supper . 1. because this expresseth the nearest union and closest confederation , as the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 among the grecian common-wealths did . 2. because this hath been alwayes looked on with greatest veneration in the church of god ; and therefore it is least of all fit those persons should be admitted to the highest priviledges of the church , which are unworthy of the lowest of them . there remain only some few objections which are levelled against this opinion concerning the power of excommunication , which from the question being thus stated and proved , will be soon removed . the first is that this excommunication is an outward punishment , and therefore belongs not to church-officers , but to the magistrate . 2. because it neither is nor ever was in the power of any church-officer to debar any offending member from publick worship , because any heathens may come to it . 3. it cannot lie as to exclusion from the lords supper , because christ is offered as spiritual food , as well in the word preached as in the sacrament . to these i answer . 1. i do not well understand what the objectors mean by an outward punishment ; for there can be no punishment belonging to a visible society , ( such as the church is here considered to be ) but it must be visible , i. e. outward , or a thing to be taken notice of in the world ; and in this sense i deny that all visible punishment belongs only to the magistrate ; but if by outward , be meant forcible punishment , then i grant that all coactive power belongs to the magistrate ; but i deny that excommunication formally considered , is a forcible punishment . 1. because every person at his entrance into this society , is supposed to declare his submission to the rules of the society ; and therefore whatever he after undergoes by way of penalty in this society , doth depend upon that consent . 2. a person stands excommunicate legally and de jure , who is declared authoritativly to be no member of the society , though he may be present at the acts of it ; as a defranchised person may be at those of a corporation . 3. a person falling into those offences which merit excommunication , is supposed in so doing , voluntarily to renounce his interest in those prviledges , the enjoyment of which doth depend upon abstaining from those offences which he wilfully falls into ; especially if contumacy be joyned with them , as it is before excommunication ; for then nothing is done forcibly towards him ; for he first relinquisheth his right , before the church-governour declares him excluded the society . so that the offendor doth meritoriously excommunicate himself , the pastor doth it formally , by declaring that he hath made himself no member by his offences and contumacy joyned with them . to the second i answer , that i do not place the formality of excommunication in exclusion from hearing the word , but in debarring the person from hearing tanquam pars eoclesiae , as a member of the church , and so his hearing may be well joined with that of heathens and infidels , and not of members of the church . to the third i answer , that exclusion from the lords supper is not on the accounts mentioned in the objection , but because it is one of the chiefest priviledges of the church , as it is a visible society . having thus cleared and asserted the power of excommunication in a christian church , there remains only one enquiry more , which is , whether this power doth remain formally in the church , after its being incorporated into the common-wealth , or else doth it then escheate wholly into the civil power ? the resolution of which question mainly depends on another spoken to already ; viz. whether this power was only a kind of widows estate , which belonged to it only during its separation from the civil power , or was the church absolutely infeoffed of it as its perpetual right , belonging to it in all conditions whatsoever it should be in ? now that must appear by the tenure of it , and the grounds on which it was conveyed , which having been proved already to be perpetual and universal , it from thence appears that no accession to the church can invalidate its former title . but then as in case of marriage , the right of disposal and well management of the estate coming by the wife , belongs to the husband ; so after the church is married into the common wealth , the right of supream management of this power in an external way doth fall into the magistrates hands . which may consist in these following things . 1. a right of prescribing laws for the due management of church-censures . 2 a right of bounding the manner of proceeding in censures , that in a settled christian state , matters of so great weight be not left to the arbitrary pleasure of any church-officers , nor such censures inflicted but upon an evident conviction of such great offences which tend to the dishonour of the christian church , and that in order to the amendment of the offendors life . 3. the right of adding temporal and civil sanctions to church-censures and so enforcing the spiritual weapons of the church , with the more keen and sharp ones of the civil state . thus i assert the force and efficacy of all church-censures in foro humano to flow from the civil power , and that there is no proper effect following any of them as to civil rights , but from the magistrates sanction . 4. to the magistrate belongs the right of appeals in case of unjust censures ; not that the magistrate can repeal a just censure in the church , as to its spiritual effects ; but he may suspend the temporal effect of it : in which case it is the duty of pastors to discharge their office and acquiesce . but this power of the magistrate in the supream ordering of ecclesiastical as well as civil causes , i have fully asserted and cleared already . from which it follows , that as to any outward effects of the power of excommunication , the person of the supream magistrate must be exempted , both because the force of these censures doth flow from him in a christian state , and that there otherwise would be a progress in infinitum , to know whether the censure of the magistrate were just or no. i conclude then , that though the magistrate hath the main care of ordering things in the church , yet ( the magistrates power in the church being cumulative , and not privative ) the church and her officers retain the fundamental right of inflicting censures on offenders : which was the thing to be proved . dedit deus his quoque finem . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a61546-e100 §. 1. §. 2. §. 3. §. 4. §. 5. §. 6. §. 7. §. 8. §. 9. §. 10. §. 11. §. 12. apud . agust . de civit. de l. 2. c. 21. §. 13. §. 14. §. 15. §. 16. iren. p. 2. c. 3. iren. p. 1. c. 8. §. 4. §. 17. in luk. 6.22 §. 18. §. 19. matth. 16.19 . iren. p. 2. ch 5. §. 5. p. 212. acts 2.41 . 1 pet. 3.21 . tit. 3.5 . acts 8.33 . isa. 22.20 . cypr. ep. 73. sect . 6. §. 20. §. 21. heb. 9.22 . §. 22. 1 cor. 5.11 . 2 thess. 3.14 . §. 23. iren. p. 1. c. 2. sect . 7. the sentence from scripture and reason against arch-bishops and bishops with their curats. i. that they are in their doctrine and practice abominable. ii. that their governement is an abomination. iii. that their service is a profanation, so provoking in gods eyes, that he will have all removed out of his sight. iv. that newtrality is most detestable, and commands a curse from god and good men. v. that the two waies of governement, the presabiteriall and independent, are but in shew two; they go crosse a little, but they will bend each to other till they shall both meete in one church-way. ... presented to the assembly of divines. dialogue, arguing that arch-bishops, bishops, curates, neuters, are to be cut-off by the law of god woodward, ezekias, 1590-1675. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a96899 of text r210001 in the english short title catalog (thomason e47_18). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 2 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 1 1-bit group-iv tiff page image. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a96899 wing w3501 thomason e47_18 estc r210001 99868843 99868843 154515 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a96899) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 154515) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 8:e47[18]) the sentence from scripture and reason against arch-bishops and bishops with their curats. i. that they are in their doctrine and practice abominable. ii. that their governement is an abomination. iii. that their service is a profanation, so provoking in gods eyes, that he will have all removed out of his sight. iv. that newtrality is most detestable, and commands a curse from god and good men. v. that the two waies of governement, the presabiteriall and independent, are but in shew two; they go crosse a little, but they will bend each to other till they shall both meete in one church-way. ... presented to the assembly of divines. dialogue, arguing that arch-bishops, bishops, curates, neuters, are to be cut-off by the law of god woodward, ezekias, 1590-1675. [1+] p. s.n.], [london : printed in the yeare, anno dom. 1644. attributed to ezekias woodward. also published in 1644 with title: a dialogue, arguing that arch-bishops, bishops, curates, neuters, are to be cut-off by the law of god (wing 3486). annotation on thomason copy: "this is a new title to a booke formerly called a dialogue arguing that", with a caret indicating that annotation is to be inserted before the word arch-bishops in title; "by eze: woodward"; "may. 14th.". fragment: title page only. reproduction of the original in the british library. eng church of england -government -early works to 1800. church polity -early works to 1800. a96899 r210001 (thomason e47_18). civilwar no the sentence from scripture and reason against arch-bishops and bishops with their curats.: i. that they are in their doctrine and practice woodward, ezekias 1644 319 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 a this text has no known defects that were recorded as gap elements at the time of transcription. 2007-06 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-06 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-07 robyn anspach sampled and proofread 2007-07 robyn anspach text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the sentence from scriptvre and reason , against arch-bishops and bishops with their curats . i. that they are , in their doctrine and practises , abominable . ii. that their governement is an abomination . iii. that their service is a profanation , so provoking in gods eyes , that he will have all removed out of his sight . iv. that newtrality is most detestable , and commands a curse from god and good men . v. that the two waies of governement , the presabiteriall and independent , are but in shew two ; they go crosse a little , but they will bend each to other till they shall both meete in one church-way . wherein , they , who walke with a right foot , stand charged to watch-over each other in their way ; to give an account of their way ; to beare each others burthen ; to supply each others wants , to pertake of each others graces , to doe all things as becommeth a communion of saints , alwaies doing or receiving good . this is the excellent way , as disagreeing with our times , and waies , as new wine and old bottles . therefore the reader will see his engagement here , to walke after inward gratious principles , rather then to swerve after outward priviledges . he may consider also whether the enquiry be , what way of governement is fittest for select and choice congregations , culled out two or three from amidst thousands : or what way of governement is meet for those thousands in israell . presented to the , assembly of divines . an high way there and away , it shall be called the way of holinesse , the uncleane shall be not passe over it . isa. 35. 8. printed in the yeare , anno dom. 1644. the apostolical institution of episcopacy demonstrated by will. chillingworth ... chillingworth, william, 1602-1644. 1664 approx. 12 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 4 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2004-03 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a32851 wing c3884a estc r20665 15586544 ocm 15586544 103987 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a32851) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 103987) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1589:2) the apostolical institution of episcopacy demonstrated by will. chillingworth ... chillingworth, william, 1602-1644. [2], 5 p. printed by e. cotes ..., london : m.dc.lxiv [1664] imperfect: faded and stained with loss of print; text begins on signature aaa. reproduction of the original in the harvard university library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng episcopacy -early works to 1800. church polity. great britain -politics and government -1642-1649. 2003-05 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-07 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2003-10 john latta sampled and proofread 2003-10 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-12 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the apostolical institution of episcopacy demonstrated . by will. chillingworth master of arts of the university of oxford . london , printed by e. cotes dwelling in aldersgate-street . anno dom. m.dc.lxiv . the apostolical institution of episcopacy demonstrated . sect . i. if we abstract from episcopal government all accidentals , and consider only what is essential and necessary to it ; we shall finde in it no more but this : an appointment of one man of eminent sanctity and sufficiency to have the care of all the churches , within a certain precinct or diocess ; and furnishing him with authority ( not absolute or arbitrary , but regulated and bounded by laws , and moderated by joyning to him a convenient number of assistants ) to the intent that all the churches under him may be provided of good and able pastors : and that both of pastors and people , conformity to laws , and performance of their duties may be required , under penalties , not left to discretion , but by law appointed . sect . ii. to this kind of government , i am not by any particular interest so devoted , as to think it ought to be maintained , either in opposition to apostolick institution ; or to the much desired reformation of mens lives , and restauration of primitive discipline ; or to any law or precept of our lord and saviour jesus christ : for that were to maintain a means contrary to the end ; for obedience to our saviour , is the end for which church-government is appointed . but if it may be demonstrated ( or made much more probable than the contrary ) as i verily think it may : i. that it is not repugnant to the government setled in and for the church by the apostles . ii. that it is as complyable with the reformation of any evill which we desire to reform either in church or state , or the introduction of any good which we desire to introduce as any other kind of government : and , iii. that there is no law , no record of our saviour against it : then , i hope , it will not be thought an unreasonable motion , if we humbly desire those that are in authority , especially the high court of parliament , that it may not be sacrificed to clamour , or over-born by violence : and though ( which god forbid ) the greater part of the multitude should cry , crucifie , crucifie ; yet our governours would be so full of justice and courage , as not to give it up , until they perfectly understand concerning episcopacy it self , quid mali fecit ? sect . iii. i shall speak at this time only of the first of these three points : that episcopacy is not repugnant to the government setled in the church for perpetuity by the apostles . whereof i conceive this which follows is as clear a demonstration , as any thing of this nature is capable of . that this government was received universally in the church , either in the apostles time , or presently after , is so evident and unquestionable , that the most learned adversaries of this government do themselves confess it . sect . iv. petrus molinaeus in his book de munere pastorali , purposely written in defence of the presbyterial-government , acknowledgeth : that presently after the apostles times , or even in their time ( as ecclesiastical story witnesseth ) it was ordained , that in every city one of the presbytery should be called a bishop , who should have pre-eminence over his colleagues ; to avoid confusion which oft times ariseth out of equality . and truly , this form of government all churches every where received . sect . v. theodorus beza in his tract , de triplici episcopatûs genere , confesseth in effect the same thing . for , having distinguished episcopacy into three kinds , divine , humane , and satanical ; and attributing to the second ( which he calls humane , but we maintain and conceive to be apostolical ) not only a priority of order , but a superiority of power and authority over other presbyters , bounded yet by laws and canons provided against tyranny : he clearly professeth that of this kind of episcopacy , is to be understood whatsoever we read concerning the authority of bishops ( or presidents , as iustin martyr calls them ) in ignatius , and other more ancient writers . sect . vi. certainly , from * these two great defenders of the presbytery , we should never have had this free acknowledgement , ( so prejudicial to their own 〈◊〉 , and so advantagious to their adversaries purpose ) had not the evidence of clear and undeniable truth enforced them to it . it will not therefore be necessary , to spend any time in confuting that uningenuous assertion of the anonymous author of the catalogue of testimonies , for the equality of bishops and presbyters , who affirms , that their disparity began long after the apostles times : but we may safely take for granted that which these two learned adversaries have confessed ; and see , whether upon this foundation laid by them , we may not by unanswerable reason raise this superstructure ; that seeing episcopal government is confessedly so ancient and so catholique , it cannot with reason be denyed to be apostolique . sect . vii . for so great a change , as between presbyterial government and episcopal , could not possibly have prevailed all the world over in a little time . had episcopal government been an aberration from ( or a corruption of ) the government left in the churches by the apostles , it had been very strange , that it should have been received in any one church so suddainly , or that it should have prevailed in all for many ages after . variâsse debuerat error ecclesiarum : quod autem apud omnes unum est , non est erratum , sed traditum . had the churches err'd , they would have varied : what therefore is one and the same amongst all , came not sure by error , but tradition . thus tertullian argues very probably , from the consent of the churches of his time , not long after the apostles , and that in matter of opinion much more subject to unobserv'd alteration . but that in the frame and substance of the necessary government of the church , a thing alwayes in use and practice , there should be so suddain a change as presently after the apostles times ; and so universal , as received in all the churches ; this is clearly impossible . sect . viii . for , what universal cause can be assigned or faigned of this universal apostasie ? you will not imagine that the apostles , all or any of them , made any decree for this change , when they were living ; or left order for it in any will or testament , when they were dying , this were to grant the question ; to wit , that the apostles , being to leave the government of the churches themselves , and either seeing by experience , or foreseeing by the spirit of god , the distractions and disorders , which would arise from a multitude of equals , substituted episcopal government instead of their own . general councels to make a law for a general change , for many ages there was none . there was no christian emperour , no coercive power over the church to enforce it . or , if there had been any , we know no force was equal to the courage of the christians of those times . their lives were then at command ( for they had not then learnt to fight for christ ) but their obedience to any thing against his law was not to be commanded ( for they had perfectly learn't to die for him . ) therefore there was no power then to command this change ; or if there had been any , it had been in vain . sect . ix . what device then shall we study , or to what fountain shall we reduce this strange pretended alteration ? can it enter into our hearts to think , that all the presbyters and other christians then , being the apostles schollers , could be generally ignorant of the will of christ , touching the necessity of a presbyterial government ? or , dare we adventure to think them so strangely wicked all the world over , as against knowledge and conscience to conspire against it ? imagine the spirit of di●trephes had entred into some , or a great many of the presbyters , and possessed them with an ambitious desire of a forbidden superiority , was it possible they should attempt and atchieve it once without any opposition or contradiction ? and besides , that the contagion of this ambition , should spread it self and prevail without stop or controul ; nay , without any noise or notice taken of it , through all the churches in the world ; all the watchmen in the mean time being so fast asleep , and all the dogs so dumb , that not so much as one should open his mouth against it ? sect . x. but let us suppose ( though it be a horrible untruth ) that the presbyters and people then , were not so good christians as the presbyterians are now ; that they were generally so negligent to retain the government of christ's church commanded by christ , which we now are so zealous to restore : yet certainly we must not forget nor deny , that they were men as we are . and if we look upon them but as meer natural men ; yet , knowing by experience , how hard a thing it is , even for policy arm'd with power by many attempts and contrivances , and in a long time , to gain upon the liberty of any one people ; undoubtedly we shall never entertain so wild an imagination , as that , among all the christian presbyteries in the world , neither conscience of duty , nor love of liberty , nor aversness from pride and usurpation of others over them , should prevail so much with any one , as to oppose this pretended universal invasion of the kingdom of jesus christ , and the liberty of christians . sect . xi . when i shall see therefore all the fables in the metamorphosis acted and prove stories ; when i shall see all the democracies and aristocracies in the world lye down and sleep , and awake into monarchies : then will i begin to believe that presbyterial government , having continued in the church during the apostles times , should presently after ( against the apostles doctrine and the will of christ ) be whirl'd about like a scene in a masque , and transformed into episcopacy . in the mean time , while these things remain thus incredible , and , in humane reason , impossible , i hope i shall have leave to conclude thus : episcopal government is acknowledged to have been universally received in the church , presently after the apostles times . between the apostles times and this presently after , there was not time enough for , nor possibility of , so great an alteration . and therefore there was no such alteration as is pretended . and therefore episcopacy , being confessed to be so ancient and catholique , must be granted also to be apostolique , quod erat demonstrandum . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a32851-e110 * to whom two others also from geneva may be added : daniel chamierus ( in panstratia , tom . 2. lib. 10. cap. 6. sect. 24. ) and nicol. vedelius ( exercitat . 3. in epist. ignatii ad philadelph . cap. 14. & exercit. 8. in epist. ad mariam , cap. 3. ) which is fully also demonstrated in d. hammond's dissertations against blondel ( which never were answered , and never will ) by the 〈◊〉 of those who wrote in the very next age after the apostles . conformitie's deformity. in a dialogue between conformity, and conscience. wherein the main head of all the controversies in these times, concerning church-government, is asserted and maintained; as without which, all reformation is headlesse, and all reconciliation hopelesse. dedicated by henry burton, to the honour of jesus christ, as the first-fruits of his late recovery from death to life; as a testimony of his humble and thankfull acknowledgement of so great a mercy: and published for the service of all those, that love the lord jesus christ in sincerity ... burton, henry, 1578-1648. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a78018 of text r201164 in the english short title catalog (thomason e358_20). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 87 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 20 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a78018 wing b6160 thomason e358_20 estc r201164 99861712 99861712 113854 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a78018) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 113854) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 58:e358[20]) conformitie's deformity. in a dialogue between conformity, and conscience. wherein the main head of all the controversies in these times, concerning church-government, is asserted and maintained; as without which, all reformation is headlesse, and all reconciliation hopelesse. dedicated by henry burton, to the honour of jesus christ, as the first-fruits of his late recovery from death to life; as a testimony of his humble and thankfull acknowledgement of so great a mercy: and published for the service of all those, that love the lord jesus christ in sincerity ... burton, henry, 1578-1648. [8], 27, [5] p. printed for giles calvert, at the black spread-eagle neer the west end of pauls., london, : 1646. with two final contents leaves. annotation on thomason copy: "oct: 26". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng church of england -government -early works to 1800. church polity -early works to 1800. great britain -church history -17th century -early works to 1800. a78018 r201164 (thomason e358_20). civilwar no conformitie's deformity.: in a dialogue between conformity, and conscience. wherein the main head of all the controversies in these times, burton, henry 1646 15536 11 35 0 0 0 0 30 c the rate of 30 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-05 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-05 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-05 john pas sampled and proofread 2008-05 john pas text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion conformities deformjty . in a dialogue between conformity , and conscience . wherein the main head of all the controversies in these times , concerning church-government , is asserted and maintained ; as without which , all reformation is headlesse , and all reconciliation hopelesse . dedicated by henry burton , to the honour of jesus christ , as the first-fruits of his late recovery from death to life ; as a testimony of his humble and thankfull acknowledgement of so great a mercy : and published for the service of all those , that love the lord iesus christ in sincerity . scripture-warnings for england , if not too late . esa. 1. 5. why should you be stricken any more ? ye will revolt more and more : the whole head is sick , and the whole heart faint . esa. 29. 9 , 10. stay your selves , and wonder : cry ye out , and cry , they are drunken , but not with wine ; they stagger , but not with strong drink : for the lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep , and hath closed your eyes : the prophets , and your rulers , the seers hath he covered . ezich . 22. 23 , &c. son of man , say unto her , thou art the land that is not cleansed , nor rained upon in the day of indignation : there is a conspiracie of her prophets in the midst thereof , like a roaring lyon , ravening the prey . her priests have violated my law , and put no difference between the holy and profane . her princes in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey , to shed blood , and to destroy souls , to get dishonest gain . and her prophets have daubed them with untempered mortar , seeing vanity , and divining lies , saying , thus saith the lord , when the lord hath not spoken . the people of the land have used oppression , and exercised robbery . and i sought for a man to stand in the gap , that i should not destroy the land , but i found none . hos. 7. 11. ephraim ( so england , london ) is like a silly dove without heart : they call to egypt , they go to assyria . esa. 1. 21. how is the faithful city become an harlot ? it was full of judgement , righteousnesse lodged therein , but now ●●●●●erers . thy silver is become drosse , thy wine mixt with water : thy princes are rebellious , and companions of theeves . o homines , ad servitutem parati ! tacitus . o men , fitted for slavery ! said tiberius of the roman senate ; so yielding he found their degenerate spirits to become slaves to his tyranny . as rome was in livies time , of which he said , that neither the maladies , nor remedies could be endured : so is england now . london , printed for giles calvert , at the black spread-eagle neer the west end of pauls . 1646. to the right honourable , the lord maior of the city of london . right honourable : this title salutes you as lord major , in relation to your place & office ; which being honourable , then much more , when true worth and vertue makes the person right honourable , as in title , so in reality : otherwise such usual titles are but empty founds , being but civil complements , and not of any moral notion . as it was the custome of the heathen to style those their benefactors , who were their oppressors . christians should not use such flattery . for my part , i have taken this boldnesse to salute your new lordship , without giving flattering titles , lest ( as elih● said ) my maker should soon take me away . and in truth , such places and titles of honour as these , being well weighed , do somewhat resemble the crown , which henry the 7. of this realm , finding at bosworth field to be flung in a thorn-bush , said , he that knew the weight and cares of a crown , would not stoop to take it up . and though your cap of maintenance come short of a crown ; yet into such times are we fallen , as may make your cap , to your self at least , being truly sensible of it , as heavy as a crown . and if i may speak plainly my apprehensions , the well-being and safety , not only of this city , but even of our fair england , claimeth and loudly cals for of you , an honourable , wise , and faithfull execution of your majoralty this very year : all mens expectations being erect , some with hope , and some with fear , according to their severall interests . but with what minds soever , and for what ends , men made choice of you at this time ; this we are sure of , that jesus christ the lord of heaven and earth , who hath all power in his hands , as king of kings , and lord of lords , who raiseth up , and throweth down again , hath in his wisdome called you to this place at this time , to do his will , and not your own . and therefore , in this high and important office , and this juncture of time , what need have you of another heart , and another spirit then your own , ( it being dangerous , especially in steep and slippery places , to be led by mens spirits ) and of new principles from heaven to be put into you ( as we read of saul , who had another heart given unto him , so as he was turned into another man , so soon as he was annointed king ) and all to furnish you with such qualifications of wisdome , understanding , and the fear of god , as may in the due execution and faithfull discharge of your office , declare to all the world , that your main aimes and ends are more for gods glory then your own , and more for the publike good , then for your own private ; and more to gratifie good men , then others , though never so high or great , and whose designs drive at nothing more then ruine & confusion . for we are not ignorant what diabolical plots are on foot , and how ripe for execution , and what kind of counsellers and active spirits , your chair , and table , yea and bedchamber too will be haunted withall , if experience deceive us not . and you shall find their ordinary counsels to drive at two main things ( yet both reduced under one head , to wit , tyranny ) the one , tyranny over our bodies , estates , freeholds , liberties , lawes and birth-rights of all english free-born subjects ; the other , tyranny over our soules and consciences , which are christ's peculiar freeholds and purchase , and subject to no other law , lordship or kingdome , but christs alone . and in truth ( my lord ) in this respect , you are in a hard condition , in case you should by any importunity be perswaded to interpose as a judge in the matter of religion , and especially in the point of church-government , the main controversie of these times , as wherein you have been little versed , considering how few there be that come to preach before you , who set themselves to open unto you this great mysterie of christs kingly office , and government , over consciences and churches : but on the contrary , such as ignorants most admire and adore as gods upon earth , do withhold this truth of god concerning his sons kingly government from you ; nay ( though under other terms ) do publikely in your solemn assemblies exclaim against it , shut it out of their churches , will not suffer others to preach , or print it , with their good wils , but do exasperate and incense you against all those that hold forth this truth in the glory and excellency of it : this being that very kingdom , of which christ said , woe be to you soribes and pharisees , hypocrites , for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men , for ye neither go in your selves , nor suffer ye them that are entring , to go in . but , my lord , you are a lover of peace ; as that part of your speech upon your election , in the hall , declared , and we all believe it : when you said , that you would endeavour to have vnity ; for which you propounded two wayes , either by intreaty , or by force . indeed , in such a case , and for your place , intreaty is very commendable : but if you think by force to compose the differences , that will prove none of gods wayes , nor to lie within your sphere ; as i dare say , you abhorre to be a persecutor of those that are the promoters of christs honour . and being a thing not pertaining to the office , especially of a christian magistrate ; i need not tell you what befell vzzah , for stretching out his hand to stay the trembling ark . and now that i have been thus far bold with your lordship , ( which hath proceeded meerly from a hearty desire , that you may not be carried with the strong tide of the times by any malignant spirit filling your sailes , through many under-water rocks and shelves , endangering not only the splitting of your own vessel , but the total ship wrack of this floating state : ) give me leave further to beseech you , that ( as you love your own self , and soul , and family , and posterity , your native country , the honour of this city and nation you would improve the whole power of your office ( among other evils ) for the not only suppressing , but utter obliterating out of all records of memory , or mention , that late remonstrance of london , which like the trojan horse is stuffed with such matter , as , if the importunity of some might have its desire , would unavoidably hale in ruine both to city and country . nor doth any thing more clearly demonstrate that spiritual judgement of blindnesse , and hardnesse of heart to be upon all those who have their heads and hands in that remonstrance , and wilfully still persist in the prosecution of it now in cold blood : than the unnaturall hating , and hunting after the destruction of those very men , as our mortal enemies , who have with the extreme hazard of their lives , been honoured of god to be the preservers both of them , our city and country , and on the other side , the high esteem and honouring of those , as our faithfullest friends , who are part-takers with murtherers , with rebels , with traitors , incendiaries , underminers of our parliaments , and consequently of the state of the kingdom , dividers between the parliament and city , that themselves may reigne , whose violent and fraudulent practises proclaim them to be not friends , but such , as in whom to put the least confidence , is to trust in the reed of egypt , whereon if a man lean , it will pierce him through . and therefore , for these many and weighty considerations , both in a due respect to your lordship , and hearty zeal for the honour and safety both of parliament , city , kingdome ; fuller of dangers and enemies at this day , then ( by reason of that spirit of blindnesse , and deep sleep , wherein our city hath of late been sweetly lulled by the strong charms of fair false friends flatteries ) we are aware of : i have in the name of jesus christ humbly commended this small book to your lordship , that therein i might discharge the duty of a poor watchman , to awaken you in the first place , and consequently all of that court and counsel with you , to look out , and inward too , for the speedy preventing of all those imminent dangers , which otherwise will suddenly surprise us , and take us napping in the deep of our too credulous security . for the spirit of that ten-horned beast is now making war with the lamb , ( which is likely to be his last war , babylons fall following in the next chap. ) & this spirit warreth under new colours , not red , but white , whose word is , reformation , and this under a fair colour of a covenant , by vertue whereof pretending a just title to the war , he hopes , by the help of the remonstrance , and the prime authors thereof , and their adherents , to erect a new bestial tyrannie over souls , bodies & estates , under new names and notions . but the issue is , the lamb shall overcome them ( for he is lord of lords , and king of kings ) and they that are with him are called chosen and faithfull . and , my lord , you shall find in this book , conformity to be the mystery of iniquity , the mother of all mischief , the cause of all our present calamities , and the forerunner and hastener of our ruine , if we repent not , & if our lord iesus christ prevent not , which certainly he will , because himself is the great and almighty general , whose cause and name is mainly engaged in this warre . now the lord iesus christ give you the spirit of wisdom , well to consider and lay to heart these things : which that you may do , is , and shall be the hearty prayer of your lordships most humble servant , henry burton . a dialovge between conformity and conscience . conformities soliloquie . conformity . who is this that comes along ? surely by his habit and gate , it should be one , that , according as i have often heard him described by many , is called , conscience . and to be sure , i will be so bold , as to salute him , and ask his name . and if it be indeed that conscience i mean , and that he will afford me so much patience , i will enter into further discourse with him . conformity . you are well met , sir . conscience . and you also . conf. sir , i pray you pardon my boldnesse to crave your name . for as i came along , i conceived from what i had heard , that you should be the man called conscience . consc . my name is conscience . conf. now i am glad of this happy opportunity to meet you , of whom i have heard so much talk abroad in the world . consc . why , what talk hath the world of me ? conf. sir , i pray you be not offended , and i will tell you . the world generally saith of you , that you are the only troubler of the state . consc . is it therefore true , because the world saith it ? so ahab called the prophet eliah , the troubler of israel : so the jewes said of christ , that he was a perverter , and stirrer up of the people . so when this lambe of god , the king of the jewes was born , herod , and all jerussilem were troubled at it . why so ? was it this king that troubled them , or their own guilty consciences in usurping this kingdom ? alas ! sir this is no news , that where ever the fame of this king and of his kingdom commeth , in the powerfull preaching of the gospel of the kingdom , it brings with it trouble and terrom to the world , or to any state . and as it was with herod and the priests at jerusalem at the birth of this king , so at his death : they could not endure to hear of this king of the jews . so the heathen emperour domitian , out of jealousie of his empire , sought to root out the whole race of christs kindred , until two of them were brought before him that got their living hardly in the husbanding of a few acres of land , and understanding of christs kingdom , that it was altogether spirituall and not of this world , he dismissed them , and ceassed his persecution . an example sufficient to shame thousands that glory in the name of christians , and contrary to this heathen , cannot endure to hear of christs kingdom to be spirituall ; but under some fair colourable pretences of spiritualty , and clergy , and i know not what , endeavour nothing more then to set up a worldly kingdom , which yet they must ( forsooth ) call christs kingdom , when in nothing it is spirituall , but as it is a tyranny set over mens consciences , souls , and spirits . but sir , before i proceed any further with you , let me also crave your name . conf. sir , my name is conformity . consc . conformity . sir , if you be the man , i know none more ready to raise slanders upon me then your self ; and may i not say truly of thee , that thou art one of the greatest troublers of israel ? for what can more trouble the world , then when thou ( conformity ) would'st force all mens consciences to dance after thy pipe . conf. why , mr. conscience , do not ye think that i have a conscience as well as you ? should i therefore be an enemy to conscience ? but indeed , i confesse my conscience is not so strict , or strait-laced , or self-willed , as obstinately to stand upon mine own singular opinion , in opposition to the generall judgement of most meh , and those not only learned , but pious too , so far as i can judge . consc . it seems then that every conscience by your verdict , must be strait-laced , and self-willed , that will not follow the multitude , seeing you ground your conscience upon men for their number , learning , piety , making them the rule of your conscience , and not gods word alone . conf. sir i hold this the safest way : for i may misunderstand the scripture , which many learned cannot so easily do . consc . this indeed is a good plea for popery , who boast of their universality , learning , councels , & synods , and therefore ( besides the popes infallible oracle ) not easily subject to mis-understand the scriptures . or you are like those jewes , who would not believe in christ , unlesse the rulers did know indeed that he was the very christ . or as the pharisees said , have any of the rulers , or of the pharisees believed on him ? thus , do you not pin your faith , and so your souls upon mens sleeves , when you will believe as most believe , or as the church or nation believes ? conf. but sir , i put a great difference between a councel of learned papists , or a synedrion of jewish priests , and a synod of learned protestants . consc . indeed the very names of papist and protestant import no small difference ; although a papist and a protestant at large are at no great odds in matter of faith , conscience , religion ; only such a protestant is apter to turn papist , then a papist , protestant . and take your protestants at the best , call a synod of the learned est , and highest esteem in the world , yet even such a synod may in some things and those fundamentall too , possibly run into , and wrap themselves in foul errours . conf. how sir ? shew me any one instance hereof , that ever any learned protestant counsel or synod hath erred in any fundamentall of faith , or much lesse hath maintained such an error or heresie , and i will not henceforth be so confident in depending and resting upon mens judgements , be they never so learned , godly , or many . consc . seeing you thus put me to it , what think ye of jesus christ ? is not he a prime fundamentall ? conf. no doubt , for he is the only foundation : for other foundation can no man lay . consc . is not christ then as well in his three offices ( as he is king , priest and prophet ) as in his two natures united in one person of the eternal son of god , a fundamentall of faith , so as , as well he that denieth any one of his three offices , as * he that denieth that jesus christ is come in the flesh , is an antichrist and grand heretick , as overthrowing a principall foundation of faith ? conf. i conceive this cannot well be denyed . consc . nay , of necessity it must be believed . for the papists in joyning their traditions with the scripture , deny christs propheticall office ; and in equalling their satisfactions with christs merits , they deny his priestly office ; and in exalting their hierarchy ( call it papall , or prelaticall , or sacerdotall ) * over the temple of god , mens consciences , they deny christs kingly office : all which offices together , or any one of them being denied ; is , * with antichrist , to deny , that jesus is the christ ; seeing the christ is he , that is anointed king , priest , and prophet , of which to deny any one , is to deny that jesus is the christ . do ye not believe this , mr. conformity ? conf. i confesse there appears to me a truth to be in all this . but yet , mr. conscience , i hope you do not go about to ensnare me with mine own confessions . consc . why master conformity , are you conscious to your selfe , that while you confesse the truth , the truth should ensnare you ? certainly the bonds of * truth willingly taken upon us , become the robes and livery of our true freedome . conf. sir , take me not at the worst ; i would not willingly utter words to my prejudice . consc . speak the words of truth then , and fear nothing . conf. well sir , proceed then to what you have more to say . consc . i say then , that to deny any one of christs offices ( as afore ) is to overthrow a foundation of faith . conf. i grant it . consc . hereupon i inferre , that it is possible for a learned synod of protestant divines to deny one of these three offices , and so to overthrow a foundation of faith . conf. though it be possible , yet it is not probable . but sir , remember what ye undertook , namely , to prove by instance , that a protestant synod of orthodox divines hath thus erred . consc . nay stay , mr. conformity , remember your self well : did i say , a protestant synod of orthodox divines ? for how orthodox , if they overthrow a foundation of faith ? then they cease to be orthodox . conf. well , however , yet they might in other fundamentals be orthodox . consc . but in any one fundamentall to be heterodox , is to cease to be orthodox , and , obstinately persisting , is hereticall . conf. i confesse , that any one heresie maintained , makes a man a heretick , hold he otherwise never so many truths , and so he overthrows the faith , as those did who * denyed the resurrection , though all other truths they held . but sir , all this while i expect your proof or instance , that a synod of protestant divines should fall into any such foul errour , or heresie , as should overthrow the foundation . consc . mr. conformity , for instance we need not go beyond the seas , or over our english bounds to fetch it . what if the generality of the ministers and people in england be found to be wrapped in such a destructive heresie ? i call it destructive , using the * apostles word , where he saith . that there shall be false teachers among gods people , who shall cunningly bring in destr●ying heresies . and what are these ? even denying the lord that bought them , bringing upon themselves * swift destruction . and many shall follow their destructive wayes , or their destructions , by whom the way of truth shall be * evill spoken of , or blas●hemed . a prophesie ( by the way ) which if well weighed , and rightly applyed , may be found to be in a great measure fulfilled in these our times . for here is first a destructive , or ( as our common translation ) damnable heresie . secondly , this heresie * is , in deaying the lord jesus christ . thirdly , here is a many followers . fourthly , among this many there be some at least , who have their mouthes open in pulpits , streets , tables , and their quils in presses , in pamphlets , blaspheming , speaking all manner of evill against the way of truth ; even that way of truth , which holdeth forth , confesseth , professeth , maintaineth ( against all the worlds reproaches ) jesus christ in that very particular , wherein he is at this day so mightily decried , and denied by false teachers and their followers . nor can any age , as touching this one particular , be paralleld with this of ours for pens and tongues of blasphemy ; lashing out , and running over all the bounds and banks , not only of christianity , but even of common modesty and humanity ( as men bereaft of their wits ) and all this against the assertors and maintainers of the kingly office of jesus christ . and lastly , a destructive heresie , in that not only it destroyes soules , but is in a precipice to destroy kingdoms , to such a height of rage it is now grown . conf. but mr. conscience , what means all this ? what ? in that your generality , do you charge as all , synod , sion , city , countrey , as lying under the guilt of such an heresie ? what ? all denying the lord jesus christ ? consc . mr. conformity , cannot a man speak of a generality , but he must needs name particulars ? and you know that generals have their exceptions . and when a generality is mentioned , let all particulars look to it . but what if there be a generality , and that of protestants ( so called ) in the land , which will be found to overthrow christs kingly office ? conf. what if , say you ? what if the sky fall ? nay i dare say , yea , and swear too , that not any one of this generality you mean , doth , or dare deny christs kingly office and prerogative . i have often heard them in publick to give christ the title of king , and to speak of his kingdom ; and they every where confesse and professe him to be king of his church . so as such a charge would argue as much malice , as untruth . consc . and i have heard them say as much as you say . but is saying sufficient ? yea , i have heard them say , that all church-members must be saints : that all churches be equal , & none have jurisdiction over other : that gods word is the only rule of reformation : and many such principles about churches they confesse in words so , christ to be king . but if this be all , it may prove little better , then the jews putting a purple robe upon christ with a crown of thorns on his head , and a reed for a scepter in his hand , with hail king of the jewes ; but for all this , crucified him : so that you confesse christ to be king , and crucifie his true subjects again , you know the pharisees said many things well , but they did them not . and doth not the scripture speak of such as * professe they know god , but in works deny him ? whence we observe a twofold deniall of god : one in words , & another in deeds . now i do not say , that the generality doth in words deny christs kingly office : but this i affirm , that in works they deny him . conf. sir , how do you prove that ? or how doth that scripture reach to those you speak of ? consc . a question opportunely put . and therefore if you turn to the 14 & 15 verses immediately foregoing , you may observe what manner of persons those were , whom the apostle there speaks of , and upon what occasion . for that chapter being to set forth the office of a bishop or pastor of a particular church or congregation , and how he should be qualified and gifted , and the church governed ; the apostle willeth titus to warn the christians , not to give heed to iewish fables and commandements of men , that turn from the truth . where he ranks the commandements of men in church-matters , manners , and government , with iewish fables , as which do turn men away from the truth , and so from christ , as he also sheweth at large , col. 2 , 8. 20. 22. and throughout the whole chapter . so as to set up the commandements of men in formes of worship , or of church-government , being christs spirituall kingdom , is to separate men from christ , ( col. 2. 19. ) and to make them unbelieving , ( tit. 1. 14. ) and impure in minde and conscience , v. 15. yea , abominable and disobedient , and unto every good work reprobate , vers . 16. all which i commend to your more sad and serious consideration , master conformity . conf. i confesse this is a terrible scripture to those that lye under the condemnation of it . but i hope those whom you mean , are no such men : for first , you confesse they deny not in words christs kingly office : and for any deniall in works , you have not yet proved , nor i hope can . consc . i have nothing to do with your hope . but whereas you would make it my confession , that they deny not in words christs kingly office , neither doe i absolutely confesse so much . for though i confesse i have heard them upon occasion ( being put to it ) in words to confesse christ to be king of his church : yet i have heard them again say , and have read it in their books , and they maintain it tooth and nail , that christ hath left the forms of worship and church government unto men , to be so framed as is most suitable to the conditions of the people , or the laws of each state , binding all the subjects thereof ( and that under severe penalties ) to an universall conformity , or uniformity . conf. why sir , hath not christ left that power and liberty to those that are in authority ; as synods , to frame and compose forms of worship and church-government , such as they judge fittest , having an eye to the scripture , and the civill magistrate to confirm the same by law ? consc . the pope indeed arrogating to himself all power in heaven and earth over churches and kingdoms , makes his claim from scripture . as * thou art peter , &c. therefore his successor , the pope , is the rock , whereon the church is built . so , here are two swords : therefore the pope hath power of both the swords . so , * the holy ghost shall lead you into all truth : therefore the apostolick chair at rome cannot erre . here mr. conformity , cast your eye a little upon the scripture , and see there what one place you can finde to serve your turn , that hath any more likenesse or probability in it , for what you claim , then those places which the papists are not ashamed to build their babel-towre upon . you have talked much of jure divino , but are not able to crane it up higher then to jure humano : and therefore , i suppose it is , that of late dayes , since the house put their nine queres to the synod , the mention of jure divino is quite husht . and now conscience challengeth you to produce but one testimony from scripture for you , which will not make you as ridiculous , as the forenamed scriptures do the pope . and for synods , they have no such authority as you speak of . give us one scripture . that in acts 15. will not serve your turn . and the apostles sought not to humane authority , and laws , to confirm the gospel , or to give power to the exercise of their ministery . conf. why mr. conscience , you your self cannot shew us from scripture a model of your way , though promised , and long expected ; and therefore why should you require one of us ? consc . we do not require so much of you , but to shew us one only place of scripture for you , which you cannot do . and for us , though we do not give you such a model , as you desire , or rather dream of ( for no such model is left in the new testament , as was given to moses and david in the old ; which consisted altogether of externall things , being shadows of the spirituall now under the gospel , the pattern whereof was christ . but this we both have done , and yet further are able to do , to prove our way , with all our practises in every particular , out of gods word , which you are not able to do for any one of your practices , much lesse for the whole way of your classicall presbytery , as which hath no footing in scripture . for ( because you thus urge me ) shew us , if you can , in all the new testament , any one nationall christian church . or shew us any one ground for either nationall or parochiall christian churches , or yet any church fixed to a place , so that all people successively comming to dwell there , be they what they will , godly or prophane , protestants or papists , because inhabitants there , must therefore make up the church there , whether nationall or parochiall . or shew us that churches should come by naturall propagation , or locall habitation and succession , and not by spirituall generation only . or shew us in scripture either rule or example for a classicall presbytery . or shew us in the whole scripture a state church government allowed of god . or shew us out of the word , that the apostles constituted no churches without leave obtained from the civill state . or whether those christian jews that constrained the galatians to be circumcised , for the avoiding of persecution , did well or no , so to constrain , and that only to avoid persecution : or whether this example will warrant you to constrain all to conform to you ; either because conformity is free from persecution , or because all must be persecuted , that conform not . or lastly , shew us , what better rule or example the scripture affords , for wresting from the magistrate through the force of importunity by men both many and mighty , stirred up and egged on by a colledge of priests , to reject christ and his government , and deliver him up to their wils to be crucified , then that colledge of priests in jerusalem , who so incensed the people against christ , that nothing would satisfie them , but he must be crucified ; so as the magistrate is necessitated even against his conscience , what through fear of caesar on the one side , and what for favour of the people on the other , to gratifie them with a barabbas in stead of christ . now to all , or any of these , we desire your answer . conf. sir , i only urge this for the present , that though the scripture hath not expressed a power given to men by christ , yet we finde examples of it in the old testament , as jehosaphat , ezekiah , iosiah , asa , kings of judah , who reformed religion , and are commended for it as good kings for their labour . consc . they did not set up any new forms of religion of their own head , but they commanded the priests and levites to restore and repair religion in all things according to the prescript , and precise pattern given by god himself . and note withall , that the kingdom of iudah or of david , was a type of christs spiritual kingdom , and all the kings of judah were types of christ . so as no other kings or states are to be paralleld with them . but yet ( i say ) for all that , they went not beyond the precise rule of gods law , as you may see by all those examples you alledge . for christ gave those kings , though types of himself , no such power , as you pretend . yea , the scripture every where , in both the testaments , hath punctually preserved inviolate and entire , that kingly prerogative of christ , as being as incapable of being communicable to any humane power , as his omnipotency is , or his other offices , as high priest and prophet . for proof hereof : moses for all his wisdom , and learning , and piety , though he were a great prophet , and a type of christ , yet had not this power granted unto him , to frame the tabernacle , with all things pertaining thereunto , as himself pleased ; but a strict charge god gave unto him , saying , see thou do all * things according to the patterne shewed thee in the mount . so david , though a king , and a man after gods own heart , yet was not entrusted for the framing of the pattern of the temple for his son solomon , but * god gave him the pattern thereof both by the spirit , and in writing ( so carefull was god , lest david should forget any thing ) which he delivers to his son solomon to do in all things accordingly . so in ezekial we reade , where the reformation of the church under the gospel is typed , there is a pattern to be measured , as ezek. 40. 5. to which , answereth that in rev. 11. 1. a place worthy our best observation , as pertinent to these times of reformation , which must be measured by the golden reed of the word of god . and for any the least dominion over the conscience by any humane binding law in matters of faith , christ would no more entrust the apostles themselves , then he did moses and david . and therefore * paul disclaimed it . and * peter disswaded it to the presbyters or elders , being himself an elder . and herein even servants must not be servants to men , as being bought with a price , and so christs free-men . and remarkable is that * scripture , where christ , speaking to the multitude , and to his disciples , he tels them of the scribes and pharisees sitting in moses chair , and so to be heard : but when among other their practises they binde heavy burthens , then and there he saith , call no man father upon earth ; that is , therein obey them not , that 's for the multitude : and for the disciples , re ye not called rabbi , for one is your master , even christ . and that no man hath power over anothers conscience , the apostle sheweth , speaking to the very same purpose ; who art thou that judgest another mans servant ? how much more then christs servant ? and this in things indifferent : how much lesse in things forbidden in the scripture , must we force our brothers conscience , or labour to perswade him ? the chapter is full of arguments to this purpose . conf. but sir , if the scripture be so clear for that which you affirm , then hath the whole church of god for many ages , even almost from the very apostles , continued in a foul errour . consc . nay more then almost . for this mystery of iniquity had its first rise even in the apostles times , it began then to work . and what was this mystery of iniquity , but an exaltation of mans power above all that is called god , or that is worshipped , so as to sit upon , or over , or in the temple of god , over the consciences of gods people , and over the church , as god himself ? and note there also , it is called an apostasie , or ( as tit. 1. 14. ) a turning away from , or of the truth ( as afore ) and such are adversaries too , and all antichristian . such an one was * diotrephes ; that {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , who loved the preeminence ( the very spawn of this mystery ) which sets him a work to raise himself : 1. in not receiving the apostle john . 2 in prating against him with malitious words . 3. in not receiving the brethren . 4. in forbidding those that would . and 5. in casting them out of the church . thus also did this mysterie begin to work , as the apostle intimates both in tit. 1. 14. and in col. 2. 8. 17. 18. 28. 22 , 23. but then this mystery was but in the swadling clouts , which afterward growing by degrees to the full stature , was so bedecked with infinite varieties of ceremonies , and daily new fashions in religion ( as the crow with every birds feather ) that getting an unlimited , usurped power , and that under the colour of jure divino , all mens consciences , churches must conform to the present fashion of worship and church-government . thus by degrees this mystery of iniquity mounted to its height , and hath now obtained such a prescription of antiquity , as is equivalent to a law . and not only the pope claimeth and exerciseth this power over his whole popedome , and hierarchy , but from him our late prelates . and whence , or from whom you derive this very power , unlesse immediately either from the pope , or from our late prelates , whose personall prelacy you have abandoned , saving their prelaticall spirit and usurped power : or else from the antiquity of this mystery ; you may do well to inform us . and in truth , this was that very sluice , which when first opened , did let in that inundation and deluge not only of will-worship , in all kinde of ceremonies and superstitions , but also of humane forms and frames of church-government , and in all of them such a tyrannicall power over all consciences and churches , as hath wholly drowned all ; so as christs dove can no where finde , where to set her foot . and therefore in this time of pretended reformation , to erect this great idol , to wit , a power in man to prescribe laws , and to legitimate commandements for worship and church government ; and to presse them upon every mans conscience : what is it , but with nebuchadnezzar to erect his golden image , and with an immortall law of the medes and persians , to binde all men to fall down and worship it ? or what is it , but with ieroboam and his counsel ( and so in every alteration of the state ) to set up the golden calves , with a strict commandement of universall conformity ; none daring among all those ten tribes * openly to professe the pure worship of god , saving the prophet eliah , to whom those seven thousand were not known . and therefore god rooted out ieroboams house ; and did the tribes escape scot-free , for their yielding willing obedience to the commandment of the * king his counsel , though it were a publick act of state ? was not * ephraim oppressed , and broken in judgement , because he willingly walked after the commandement ? for god set wicked kings over them , who oppressed and brake them in judgement , tyrannizing at their pleasure . as alwayes where a people is brought under the spirituall yoak of bondage , they are never free from the temporall . nor only this , but they were carried into perpetuall captivity , and never returned unto this day . an example to be laid to heart both of rulers and people . remember ephraim therefore , the horriblenesse of whose sin appeareth by the horriblenesse of the punishment . and like to this is that of jerusalem , and of the jews . they said indeed , * if we thus let him alone , all men will believe in him , and the romans will come and take away both our place and nation . no , blinde jews , because ye did renounce your king christ , and so envie the peoples salvation , therefore the romans came and took away both your place and nation . and how did the jews reject this their king ? christ tels us in a parable of a noble man , luke 19. saying , ( v. 14. ) but his citizens hated him , and sent a message after him , saying , we will not have this man to reign over us . where note , first , they were such as professed to be the people of god , his citizens . secondly , the ground of their refusall of him to be their king , was hatred of him , and so to refuse him , is to hate him . thirdly , the manner of their refusall . 1. they sent a message after him ( as the vulgar translation renders it ) but the originall is , they sent {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , an ambassage after him , which is more then a message . it must be done by a publick act of state , to make all cock sure . and 2. the matter of the ambassage , we will not have this man , or this follow ( * {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) this , noting their contempt of him . and the reason hereof was their will , we will not . but what was the issue ? read and mark it , v. 27. where christ not long after returns in judgement against them , wch he executes by those very romans , whom they so feared , to whom he gives this commission : but those mine enemies that would not that i should reign over them , bring hither , and slay them , &c. which was done accordingly . conf. but good sir , neither are we as those ten tribes under an idolatrous government ; nor as those jews , under a roman governour , with a synedrion , or counsel of priests , scribes and pharisees : but we live in a happy time , under a protestant government , a protestant parliament , a protestant synod : and therefore there is no such danger by allowing such a power to men , as you pretend . consc . although the present state be protestant , yet you are not sure it will be alwayes so . what if a marian reign come about again with a popish parliament , and convocation ? and if it be true , that christ hath left such a power to any state ( as afore ) without limitation , then it is left as well to a popish state , as to a protestant . in this respect there is no difference . and then it must follow , that a popish power , making a law for the setting up of the masse ( as qu. mary with her parliament and clergy did ) and for which they want not pretext of scripture , and iure divino ( if bold words , and false glosses will do it ) then al the subjects of england must either conforme , or else to the stake . so as the very admitting and crying up of such a power left to men , as it is most false and groundlesse ; and ( as before ) a grandmother horesic , and introducer of the most direfull tyranny over soul and all , ( so far is it from ever proving to be iure divino , as being ludibrium synodorum ) so it is the next way ( and much more in this present juncture of time , as things now stand ) to make us as miserable a nation , as both the ten tribes , and the jews . and ( as we touched before ) if the wisdom of god would not entrust his servant moses , nor david , nor the apostles , with a power in setting up what forms of worship & frames of government they pleased , though they were both wise and faithfull , and free from all private interests , in seeking themselves , to become lords paramount : car we finde in any age of the world , trow you , either a parliament or synod , whereof all the members , yea , or the greater part , are such as moses , david , and the apostles were , so as to be entrusted with such a power ? and in case this state should assume to it self such a power ( as we speak of ) so as to enact a law to binde all to conformity ; either you must produce some scripture authority for it , that the parliament may be satisfied quo jure , and that it is iure divino as they require of you , and which you have promised , but have not performed it : or in the mean time give me leave to put it unto you , or to the soundest judgements , how you can clear your self from falling under that marvellous judgement of god , which we finde in esay 29. the matter was v. 13. that their fear towards god was taught by the precept of men . they had set up a worship of god according to the precept of men . this was all . and is this , in your judgement , nothing ? but what they , were they , that did this ? surely , the prophets , rulers , and seers . what ? the guides and leaders of the people ? how came it to passe ? the lord saith there ( as a matter of wonder , and to be proclaimed by a lowd cry ) that they were drunken , but not with wine , and staggered , but not with strong drink ; and that the lord had closed their eyes , and poured upon them the spirit of deep sleep . v. 9 , 10. so as , neither the learned nor unlearned , could understand the vision , v. 11 , 12. and all their religion is turned into hypocrisie , v. 23. forasmuch , as their fear towards god was taught by the precept of men . for a religion of humane institution is hypocrisie ; while pretending to worship and fear god , they fear and worship men , which is both hypocrisie and idolatry . and what 's the issue of all this ? v. 14. therefore behold , saith the lord , i will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people , even a marvellous work and a wonder : for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish , and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid . conf. and what of all this ? consc . what think you of it , mr. conformity ? is here nothing that concerns you ? conf. nothing that i see . consc . see ye nothing of all this ? and are you not then in the number of those , whose eyes are closed , and on whom the lord hath powred the spirit of deep sleep ? conf. but do ye not know , that this was a prophesie fulfilled many hundred years agoe , even in esay's time by those of jerusalem ? how then can you apply it to these times ? consc . though it was then fulfilled , yet it is written for our learning , and to admonish us , upon whom the ends of the world are come . and the same prophesies may have sundry fulfillings upon the like occasions . and for application of it , i only made it a quere , how you could acquit your self from having it verified of you in these times . conf. but the prophesie making mention of the prophets , rulers , seers of jerusalem , as drunken and blinde ; all that i can apprehend hereof is , that you thereby mean the prophits , rulers , seers of this famous city , and perhaps also ( to speak more plainly ) the parliament , synod , sion-colledge , the common-counsel , &c. for who are the prophets , or rulers , or seers , or who are the learned and wise men , but these ? therefore mr. conscience , deale ingenuously with us , and speak no more in the clouds . consc . what mr. conformity , would you have me to doe here , as you do with your parish people , when vou mingle all together at your sacrament ? what ? good and bad ; those of the militant , and others of the malignant ( hurch together ? i would have you to know , that i put a difference between the parliament on the one side , and the synod , sion-colledge , common-counsel , on the other . and secondly , among all these i put no small odds , between the truly wise and prudent that truly fear god , and those that are self-wise , or worldly-wise . and thirdly , i put a difference between sion-colledge , and common counsell , as between seers and not seers , between the leaders , and the led . nor fourthly , do i apply the foresaid scripture to any one in particular ; but my desire is , that every one in all these companies , would by due examination of himself make the application . for it is a mater of high concernment . and for their better direction herein . first , let all those that by letters , petitions , remonstrances , compliances , confederacies , counsels , secret and open , nocturnall , and diurnall , do wring blood out of the late covenant ; by pressing , importuning , and plotting , the setting up and establishing by a law , such a form of church-government , worship , discipline , as not only is the highest affront , and dishonour to christ , but necessarily tends not only to the enslaving of the peoples consciences , but to the undoing of this whole english nation , by vassallizing it to vilest of men , apply it . secondly , let all those who would have our victorious army in all the haste disbanded , before our peace be well setled , and our land cleared from the one end to the other of all those dangers which do threaten it , by the treacheries of so many malignant enemies , who carry two faces under one hood , and do but watch for such an opportunity to wreck their envie and malice upon us , which the only terrour of our army hindreth , holding them at a bay ; apply it . thirdly , let all those who with such violent and potent importunity do presse the parliament for an ordinance , to bring themselves and the whole land under the greatest sin of unnaturall , inhumane , and more then heathenish ingratitude , impiety , injustice , cruelty , by not only dishonouring , discountenancing , abasing , as the vilest our-casts , those men , who have not only , freely laid out their estates , but even prodigally , if not prodigiously , to wonderment , hazarded , yea poured out their dearest life-blood : but also ( as if they would despight god ) by trampling upon those whom he hath highly honoured , and not suffering them to breathe in their native aire , by whom we yet breathe ; and by making them underlings and off-scourings of the land , who have been the preservers of it , and that they should be despicable in their own mother countrey , whom so many glorious victories have made admirable to the neighbour nations , yea , to the whole world ; and terrible to their professed enemies , and ours ; yea , and to pretended friends too , who would master us at home , were not these masters of the field : so as god having thus made them the great instruments of the preservation and deliverance of our countrey and city from the most desperate , bloody , and bestiall enemies that ever the earth bred , or hell hatched ; enough to have for ever ever obliged a people of any ingenuity , & not wholly given up to testifie their approbation at least , and congratulation of that great favour & honor god hath vouchsafed to cast upon them : and that as he hath crowned them with so much glory , and they have cast their crowns at the feet of the lambe that sits upon the throne : so these should come , and first , giving all the glory to god , gather up those crowns , and set them upon the heads of those their preservers and deliverers , and put chains of gold about their necks ; so far off should they be from trampling such pearls under feet , or casting them out of our gates and ports ; that they might solum vertere , spend the remainder of their life in some inglorious exile , to the eternall infamy of our english nation ; let these apply it . fourthly , let all those , who endeavour by their strong factions to make wide breaches , between parliament and city , between house and house , yea , between gods blessing and this land , which was wont of old to be called gods kingdom ; and so by these breaches would let in again our bainfull enemies . let all these , these ( i say ) make the application to themselves ; while as they have wrested out of the magistrates hand a form of worship and government , and so , as it is established by the precept of men : so god hath deprived them of wlsdom and understanding , while they would pull upon their own heads , and upon the land , the guilt of so much innocent blood of so many hundred thousands both in ireland and england , to be made the footstooll of a bloody tyranny ; and while their eyes are so closed up , as no charme , be it never so wise , can make them either to hear , or see , or understand , or their brains , or bowels , to be sensible of all those notorious and palpable outrages , rapes and robberies , violence and oppression , extortion and exaction in the land , even at noon day , unworthy affronts done to our parliament by seditious spirits ; or of all those cryes and complaints of sundry countries and counties , and no redresse , no justice , as if god had now forsaken us & left us as a silly dove without heart , full of slavish and degenerous fear of shadows , forgetting the mighty god that hath done so great things for us , and will do more , if we by faith still depend upon him : and although the faction is still working , and machinating the ruine of this nation ( if our god miraculously prevent not ) yet the god of this world hath so blinded the eyes of these men , through the just judgement of god , that they see nothing at all hereof , but are themselves the main fomenters , abettors , countenancers , promoters , advancers , encouragers , and helpers on of those , that hope to be the instruments of our ruine . so strong is the poyson of this one sin , hypocrisie , and idolatry , in teaching and setting up a fear or worship towards god by the precept of men ; which , as it is a removing of the heart from god , so it causeth him to remove his spirit from us , and to give us up to such a fearfull * dementation , as is the forerunner of destruction . and , conformity , if thou hast any of thy right senses left , consider seriously with thy self , what that religion is , which turns men out of their very naturals , to become brutish , and worse then heathens ; and which the holy ghost brands for hypocrisie , then which , nothing is more abominable in the sight of god . certainly , the true religion and doctrine of christ produceth no such fruits as those fore-mentioned are : as treason against the state , unnaturalnesse towards our native countrey , unthankfulnesse towards our best deserving friends , our benefactors , our preservers : yea , injustice and cruelty towards them , factious plottings and underminings , hatred of those that be good , enmity against those that are the friends of christ , and so persecution of the way of christ , destroying of christs kingdom , by setting up a worldly kingdom of men , * having a form of godlinesse , but denying the power thereof ; yea , and seeking to overtop the supream power . are we not then ( as the apostle admonisheth and commandeth ) to turn away from such ? conf. nay here , conscience , i have you upon the hip . for , first , how do we seek to overtop the supream power . and secondly , who doth more go about to overtop the civil power , then you , while you set up a religion without it , and above it ? consc . first , for you : do you not seek to overtop the supreme power , whilst you would have your church-government to be framed after the pattern of that , which sets up a power ( called a generall assembly ) above the power of parliaments ? now the supreme power in england , is the parliament ; so as to set up a superior power over this , is to overturn the very fundamental laws of the kingdom . and this you labour tooth and nail to do , while nothing will serve you , but the scotish church-government . i wish you would all consider well of it , and beware of falling into a premunire , if you be not deep in it already . and i could wish it were well weighed by the wisest , and those in highest place of authority ; whether the importunate pressing of the covenant , for uniformity , in the scotish sense , tend not to undermine and overthrow the liberty and priviledges of the subjects of england , when once a superior power therein , consisting of more clergy men , then of lay , is predominant over the parliament of england ? and so much the rather , when we read and consider their own publique and authentique books of their kirk government , orders , discipline , confession of faith , &c. wherein they give to their general or national assembly supreme power , not only over their parochial , classical , and provincial assemblies , but even over the parliament it self . for not only they take the power to appoint both time and place for the convening of their ecclesiastical assemblies ( as 2. book of discipline , chap. 7. ) but they say moreover in the same chap. for this orders cause , they may make certain rules and constitutions , appertaining to the good behaviour of all the members of the kirk in their vocation . and this they do without the civil magistrate . nay more , chap. ibid. they have power also to abrogate and abolish all statutes and ordinances concerning ecclesiastical matters , that are found noysome and unprofitable , and agree not with the time , or are abused by the people . and again in the same book , chap. 12. the national assemblies of this country , called commonly the general assemblies , ought alwayes to be retained in their own liberty , and have their own place ; with power to the kirk to appoint times and places convenient for the same : and all men , as well magistrates , as inferiors , to be subject to the judgement of the same in ecclesiastical causes , without any reclamation , or appellation to any judge civil or ecclesiastical within the realm . thus in reference to the spiritualty , or the church , they make no bones to set up in their national assembly the same papal power , which the pope himself claimeth , over kings , princes , states , kingdoms , commonweals . and mr. rutherford , in his * government of the church of scotland , chap. 20. p. 312. tels us , that though none in this grand assembly have decisive voyces , save only commissioners : yet the acts of the assembly oblige all the absents , not present in all their members ; and that because , whatsoever is by those commissioners determined and concluded , is matter necessary , and agreeable to gods word ; as being no lesse infallible , then those decisions of the apostles , act. 15. all which ( conformity ) i commend to thee , when in thy best senses . and because thou art apt to be overtaken with a supine drowsines , pleasing thy self with thy dreams of becomming a king , when once thou art gotten up into the saddle or throne of a kirk national-assembly : let me awaken thee by pricking thy dull sides , that thou mayest be at least convinced of that spirit of antichristian pride and tyranny , of rebellion and treason , in lifting up a papal throne above the kings and kesars , above kingdoms and commonweals , to the enslaving of the whole nation in their souls , bodies , and estates . for whosoever shall not in all things conform to the constitutions of that generall kirk assembly , when once the horn is blown , then , ipso facto , imprisonment , confiscation of goods , banishment , and what not ? now , conformity , doth gods word hold forth any such kirk fashions ? what ? to overrule civil states and kingdoms ? what ? that all kirk laws and constitutions mustneeds be such , as are both necessary , and agreeable to the word of god ? what ? to set up in the kirk an oracle of infallibility , and a pontifician supremacy , and antichristian tyrannie ? and all under the name of a christian presbyterian kirk-government ? but because this perhaps moves thee not ; i will remit thee to the supreme bar of this kingdom , there to receive thy doom , in case thou dost obstinately and madly persist in thy importunate clamours to have that presbyterian government set up , and thereby our fundamental lawes , priviledges , and power of parliaments , liberties and freedom of all true bred english subjects brought under perpetual bondage , worse then that either of egypt or babylon . but i passe on : 2. for us ▪ you may know , conformity , that we are not the setters up of that religion you charge us with ; but it is that , which we find to be set up by christ and his apostles : which they did , without leave from the civil power , or from the ecclesiastical , or mixt synedrion ; as before . secondly , though the kingdom of christ be indeed over all the kingdoms of the world ; yet all the subjects of this kingdom , as they are the subjects of this or that civill state , so they owe civill obedience thereunto : but as they belong to christs kingdome , they are free from the civil power in point of religion , owing subjection only to christ : and if the civil power usurp over any of them , they yield themselves to suffer , with patience , without resistance . conf. conscience , i like thee well for this , yet . but you tell us strange things of church-assemblies . consc . not more strange , then true : read their books , and be wise . and for our suffering , which thou likest so well , it is no more then what christ and his apostles both taught & practised , and wherein all the martyrs followed them . conf. i will better consider of what you say . but do you not condemn the magistrate , when you say he usurps over you ? consc . no , i condemn him not ; that is for god to do , who is the supreme judge of the world . conf. why , what limits hath god set to the magistrate ? consc . read deut. 17. 18 , 19. and that from v. 13. to the end of the chap. to wit , the whole law of god . so also what bonds and bounds their own conscience , and the terror of the great judge , and their sacred oath and solemn covenant and stipulation with the people , and not only gods law , but the civil lawes of the kingdome , do put upon them , you cannot be ignorant . conf. but what if the civil state hath made a-law , to inhibi● and restrain all men , and that under severe penalty , from the observation of any other form of religion , and church government , then that which it hath established by law , with a necessity of uniformity and conformity thereunto , imposed upon all the subjects of the kingdom : doth the magistrate sin , in seeing this law executed ? and without such a government , what order will you have in your churches , or what coercive power in the case either of heresie , or schisme ? consc . do you question the magistrates sin , when his law is against the law of god , and the liberty of a christian , who is the subject of christs kingdom ? for here we are to distinguish between a subject of christs spiritual kingdom , and a meer subject of the civil state . he that is a meer subject of the civil state , acknowledging no superior power above it , his conscience ( though blind ) bids and binds him to obey : but he that is a true subject of christs kingdom , being also a subject of the civil state , owes a twofold obedience , one to the civil state , & another to christ . according to that of christ . render unto caesar the things that are caesars , and unto god the things that are gods . nor doth the order or disorder in churches ( as churches ) put any difference between the having , or not having of a civil power . in the apostolick churches there were both heresies and schismes , ( 1 cor. 11. 18 , 19. 1 joh. 2. 19. ) whith the civil power took no cognisance of : nay , it was , and may be as apt to persecute the truth , as to censure or restrain either heresie , or schisme , or apostacie . and christs government is sufficient in all church-cases whatsoever . conf. but , who in a christian civil state do not acknowledge christ as superior ? consc . this is sufficiently resolved before . such as conform to a state religion , or a state church-government , make that the supreme law and lord over their conscience , and so exclude christs supremacie . enough is said of that . but you cut me off from what i was about to adde . mans nature is too prone to idolize the power so , as to make it as the shadow of the bramble , in jothams parable , under which to ease themselves of the labour to search into the scriptures , and so to come to know what they believe ; most men pinning their religion upon the sleeve either of the priest , as the papists do ; or also of the magistrate , as our common protestants do , wrapping all up in an implicite faith and blind obedience , according to your remonstrance , that urgeth conformity to the religion and government of christ already established , or which shall be set up . thus it was enough for the pharisees to say , * we have a law , and by that law christ ought to dye . thus christ must not be god , because the roman senate , according to their law formerly made , had not first motion'd it , or passed their vote for it , before tiberius caesar had commended it to them , namely to admit of christ into their pantheon , to take place among their gods . and is it not even so with us ? must not christ be king of the jews , only because by an act of state ( as before ) they will not have this man to reign over them . and christ must not be god , because the roman senate had not pre-resolved it . and so christ must not be sole lord over the conscience , nor sole law giver of his church , nor his word the sole rule of worship & of christs kingly government of his spiritual kingdom in the conscience , and churches of the saints , nor indeed christs kingdom spiritual ; because the sate hath made a law which must rule the conscience in point of forms of worship and of church-government , that christs kingdom must be worldly , perpetually entaild to a whole nation , making up one nationall church , the form whereof worldly , and the materials worldly , as either no saints at all , or else all saints , because all nominall christians ; and all this and much more , because the civill state , by the instigation of men ecclesiasticall or civill , domesticall or forein , hath so ordaind it . conf. well , conscieuce , i now perceive , that fame is no lyar ; i have now heard thee my self and much more then ever i heard before , and such things , as my stomack is no way able to digest , but that i must needs go ease it , by acquainting those whom it specially concerns , with what thou hast here delivered . and so farewell . consc . nay stay , conformity , and this withall take with thee . first , i would have thee know , that speaking so freely to thee , i was not so simple , as not to imagine thou wouldst divulge all ; nay in truth , i have spoken all this to thee to that very purpose , that thou shouldst communicate it ( if possible ) so far as the sun shines ; but first to thine at home , as thou sayest . but thus much let me intreat of thee . 1. that thou wouldst not do any thing this way in malice , lest thou adde to thy sin secondly , that thou wouldst speak nothing but truth , and the whole truth and that without aggravations whereof there is no need especially when thou speakest to thy friends of conscience , and much more of things of this nature , too harsh for delicate ears . and thirdly , assure them from conscience , that what i have here spoken to thee , it is out of pure zeale for the honour of christ , out of pure charity to the persons concerned , out of pure piety to see my native country in such a perishing estate , and the honour of england to lie in the dust ; out of pure hatred of hypocrisie , idolatry , pride , covetousnes , ambition , treachery and treason , walking up and down in long robes : and in a word , to deliver ( if no more , yet ) mine own soul , in discharge of my duty to god and my country , as a poor minister of christ , by witnessing the truth , and convincing error . and for a close of all ( conformity ) if thou desirest peace with truth ( as we all should do ) if thou wouldest have me to hold correspondence with thee , and to give thee the right hand of fellowship ; if thou desirest that desirable reconciliation of our differences : first renounce thy name of conformity , in thy sense , and conform not to this world , but to gods word , let that be the cynosure or pole-star of that vniformity of churches , according to the word of god , as in our late covenant . and this thou shalt do , if ( i say not , if thou dost shake off the fear and favour of men , the love of the world , of honours , pleasures , riches , preferments , ambition of greatnesse , of domination over gods people , nor if thou castest out that old spirit of bondage under the prelates , lest it turn into a more dangerous tyrannie , then that of the prelacie , as being more refined , and going under the plausible name of reformation : nor do i say , if thou becommest a self denying man , taking up thy crosse daily to follow christ : without all which notwithstanding , thou canst not be his true disciple & follower , or enjoy true fellowship with him . ) but this i say , and urge , as being the main fundamental and essential of a true & right visible church of christ : if thou confessest christ in all that he is ; if thou givest him his due honour , in submitting thy conscience only and wholly to him , with profession thereof , and not to any humane power , and as to the only lawgiver of his church and kingdom , to order and establish it with judgement and justice for ever : and to his word , as the only law and rule of the government of that kingdom , and the only judge to appeale unto in all doubts and controversies of faith : and if thou shalt confesse every church and congregation of christ to be only and immediately under christs jurisdiction , and not subject to any other church or churches , which are so many sisters , not mistresses ; lest otherwise we set up the spouse above , or in stead of her husband christ . if ( i say ) thou wilt confesse and hold forth this in thy publike profession , preaching , and practice of it : then , though thy churches have many other defects , yet if they have the beeing and constitution of true churches of christ , for matter and form , i shall not scruple to hold communion with thee . but otherwise , so long as thou walkest not up to christ , in not acknowledging and avowing all that he is , in not giving him his due honour in all things , and especially in not setting him up in his royal throne , without a consort : how can we entertain communion with you ? for , * farewell religion , where gods glory suffers the least diminution . and therefore ( conformity ) now that you are about the setting forth of your confession of faith , let not this one article be missing : that you do believe , confesse , and professe before all the world , that jesvs christ is the sole king and law-giver to every particular visible church of his , and over every particular mans conscience : so as no power on earth may usurp authority , upon what pretence soever , to make and impose what laws they please to bind the conscience , or to regulate the churches of god ; but ought to leave both conscience and churches to the only rule , and law of christ , the scripture , to which alone every mans conscience must be consined , all divine worship in all things conformed , and all church-government reduced . and for a close of all , i pray thee ( conformity ) advise all thy colleagues , that they would abstain from stirring up sedition in pulpits , and great tables , against the parliament ; perswading to hold the parliament to it , till you obtain your desires , to retain the scots in england , till their government be here setled : which would unsettle and overthrow our fundamental lawes and liberties , which you go about , in thus seeking to force the parliament : but learn to be wise , honest , loyal , good christians , true patriots , true-bred english-men ; lest it prove bitternesse in the latter end : for god is avenger of all such . and so farewell , conformity . finis . the contents of this dialogve . how christs kingdome is the troubler of states , p. 2. how a worldly kingdome comes to be set up for christs spirituall kingdome . ibid. the heathen emperour a shame to christians . ib. how conformity is a troubler of israel . ib. the opin●on we have of men , no good ground for conscience to build upon . p. 3. small difference between a papist and protestant at large . ib. how a synod of learned protestants may erre in some fundamentals of faith . ib. many in england under a grand heresie , and what it is . p. 5 faith denied no lesse in practice , then in words . p. 7. the evils of practicall deniall of the truth . p. 8. conformity can finde no better proofs for it in scripture , then the pope for his papality . p. 9. conformity answered , concerning the model , wherewith conscience is so much cast in the teeth . ibid. great difference between the pattern in the old testament , and the model in the new . ib. conformity put to prove many particulars of his church by scripture . p. 10. conformitie's objection , concerning some kings of judah , answered . ib. conscience free from mens yoaks . p. 11. conformity , how the mysterie of iniquity , its beginning , growth , full stature , p. 12. conformity the sluice , or inlet of all superstition and slavery . ibid. sundry fearfull examples of gods judgements upon conformity . p. 13. conformity a necessary introducer of popery , when a state hath a popish prince and parliament ; as england hath had , and may have again for ought we know . p. 14. conformity in worship to mens precept , brings a wonderfull spirituall judgement of blindnesse , and deprivation of wisdome and understanding . p. 15. all sorts put to try and examine themselves in sundry weighty particulars , whether that prophesie ( esay 29. 13 , 14. ) fall not heavie upon them ; wherein conscience severs the innocent from the guilty . p. 16. how conformity is hypocrisie , and a removing of the heart far from god . ib. the many bad fruits of conformity . 17. how conformity seeks to overtop the supream power , p. 19. how the scotish church-government , so much cryed up by the english clergie , is incompatible with the fundamentall laws and liberties of our english nation . p. 20. how church orders , or disorders , as heresie , or schisme , may be , or not be , for all the civil power . p. 23. how conscience clears it self from any withdrawing of due obedience to the magistrate . ib. what limits god hath set to the magistrate . ib. how prone mans nature is to idolize men in setting up a state-religion , and how slothfull to search the scripture , the only rule of faith , and the evill consequence hereof . p. 25. the counsel that conscience gives conformity at their parting ; and what he must of necessity do , to make peace , and hold communion with conscience . p. 26 finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a78018e-390 job 32. 22 honos onus . 1 sam. 6. 9. mat. 23. 2 sam. 6. rev. 17. rev. 18. notes for div a78018e-940 luke 23. 2 , 5. euseb. eccl. hist. john 7. 26. 48. 1 cor. 3. 11. * 1 joh. 4. 3. * thess. 2. 4. * john 2. 22. * john 8. 32. * 1 cor. 15. * 2 pet. 2. 1 , 2. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} haereses vastantes . * {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} * {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . * {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . as those infamous books of tho. edwards and iohn bastwick , too welknown to all . notus nimis omnib . horat. * tit. 1. 16 tit. 1. 14 , 15. * mat. 16. 18. * luke 22 38. * john 16. 13. * exo. 25. 30. heb. 8. 5. * 1 chro. 28. 12 , 19. chap. 43. 10. * 2 cor. 2. 24. * 1 pet. 5. 3. * 1 cor. 7 23. * mat. 23. rom. 14. 4 2 thess. 2 4. * 3 john gen. 8. 9. dan. 3. * 1 kings 19. 18. * 1 kings 12. 28. * hos. 5. 11. * john 11. 48. esa. 26. 11 * mat. 26. 61. luke 23. 2 2. 3. 4. regnum angliae , regnū dei . polydor. virgil , chron. * quos perdere vult deus , hos prius dementat . * 2 tim. 3. 5. in ordine ad spiritual ● . * and if the reeder desire surthet satisfaction , ( were it needfull to the wise ) let him read the late book , entituled , the troian horse of the presbyterial government , unbowelled . iudg. 19. 15. * joh. 19. 7 luke 19. 14. rom. 12. esa. 9. 7. * actum est de r●lig●one , ubi vel m●●imum de rahitur de d●● gloria . calvin . cxi propositions concerning the ministerie and government of the church gillespie, george, 1613-1648. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a42763 of text r21587 in the english short title catalog (wing g752). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 96 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 26 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a42763 wing g752 estc r21587 12180378 ocm 12180378 55624 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a42763) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 55624) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 762:10) cxi propositions concerning the ministerie and government of the church gillespie, george, 1613-1648. [6], 31 [i.e. 45] p. printed by evan tyler ..., edinburgh : 1647. reproduction of original in the university of illinois (urbana-champaign campus). library. eng church of england -government. church polity. a42763 r21587 (wing g752). civilwar no cxi propositions concerning the ministerie and government of the church. gillespie, george 1647 17212 13 20 0 0 0 0 19 c the rate of 19 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2003-04 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-05 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-03 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2005-03 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion ●●● propositions concerning the ministerie and government of the church . edinburgh : printed by evan tyler , printer to the kings most excellent majesty . 1647. act approving viii generall heads of doctrine against the tenents of erastianisme , independencie , and liberty of conscience , asserted in the cxi propositions , which are to be examined against the next assembly . being tender of so great an ingagement by solemn covenant , sincerely , really , and constantly to endeavour in our places and callings , the preservation of the reformed religion in this kirk of scotland , in doctrine , worship , discipline , and government , the reformation of religion in the kingdomes of england , and ireland , in doctrine , worship , discipline , and government , according to the word of god , and the example of the best reformed kirks , and to endeavour the nearest conjunction and uniformity in all these , together with the extirpation of heresie , schisme , and whatsoever shall bee found contrary to sound doctrine : and considering withall that one of the speciall meanes which it becometh us in our places and callings to use in pursuance of these ends , is in zeal for the true reformed religion , to give our publike testimony against the dangerous tenents of erastianisme , independencie , and which is falsely called liberty of conscience , which are not only contrary to sound doctrine , but more speciall lets and hinderances as well to the preservation of our own received doctrine , worship , discipline , and government , as to the work of reformation and uniformity in england and ireland . the generall assembly upon these considerations , having heard publikely read the cxi following propositions exhibited and tendered by some brethren , who were appointed to prepare articles or propositions for the vindication of the trueth in these particulars , doth unanimously approve and agree unto these eight generall heads of doctrine therein contained and asserted , viz. 1. that the ministery of the word and the administration of the sacraments of the new testament , baptisme and the lords supper , are standing ordinances instituted by god himself , to continue in the church to the end of the world . 2. that such as administer the word and sacraments , ought to be duely called and ordained thereunto . 3. that some ecclesiasticall censures are proper and peculiar to be inflicted onely upon such as bear office in the kirk ; other censures are common and may bee inflicted both on ministers and other members of the kirk . 4. that the censure of suspension from the sacrament of the lords supper , inflicted because of grosse ignorance , or because of a scandalous life and conversation ; as likewise , the censure of excommunication or casting out of the kirk flagitious or contumacious offenders , both the one censure and the other is warrantable by and grounded upon the word of god , and is necessary ( in respect of divine institution ) to be in the kirk . 5. that as the rights , power , and authority of the civill magistrate are to bee maintained according to the word of god , and the confessions of the faith of the reformed kirks ; so it is no lesse true and cert●ine , that jesus christ , the onely head and onely king of the kirk , hath instituted and appointed a kirk government distinct from the civill government or magistracie . 6. that the ecclesiasticall government is committed and instrusted by christ to the assemblies of the kirk , made up of the ministers of the word and ruling elders . 7. that the lesser and inferiour ecclesiasticall assemblies , ought to bee subordinate and subject unto the greater and superiour assemblies . 8. that notwithstanding hereof , the civill magistrate may and ought to suppresse by corporall or civill punishments , such as by spreading errour or heresie , or by fomenting schisme , greatly dishonour god , dangerously hurt religion and disturbe the peace of the kirk . which heads of doctrine ( howsoever opposed by the authors and fomenters of the foresaid errours respectively ) the generall assembly doth firmely beleeve , own , maintaine , and commend unto others , as solide , true , orthodoxe , grounded upon the word of god , consonant to the judgement both of the ancient and the best reformed kirks . and because this assembly ( through the multitude of other necessary and pressing bussinesse ) cannot now have so much leisure , as to examine and consider particularly the foresaid cxi propositions ; therefore , a more particular examination thereof is committed and referred to the theologicall faculties in the four universities of this kingdome , and the judgement of each of these faculties concerning the same , is appointed to bee reported to the next generall assembly . in the meane while , these propositions shall bee printed , both that copies thereof may bee sent to presbyteries , and that it may be free for any that pleaseth to peruse them , and to make known or send their judgement concerning the same to the said next assembly . a. ker. cxi propositions concerning the ministerie and government of the church . 1. as our lord jesus christ doth invisibly teach and governe his church by the holy spirit : so in gathering , preserving , instructing , building and saving thereof , he useth ministers as his instruments , and hath appointed an order of some to teach , and others to learne in the church , and that some should be the flock , and others the pastours . 2. for beside these first founders of the church of christ extraordinarily sent , and furnished with the gift of miracles , whereby they might confirme the doctrine of the gospel , he appointed also ordinary pastors and teachers , for the executing of the ministery , even untill his coming againe unto judgement , eph. 4. 11 , 12 , 13. wherefore , also as many as are of the number of gods people , or will bee accounted christians , ought to receive and obey the ordinary ministers of gods word and sacraments , ( lawfully though mediately called ) as the stewards and ambassadours of christ himself . 3. it is not lawfull for any man how fit soever and how much soever inriched or beautified with excellent gifts , to undertake the administration either of the word or sacraments by the will of private persons , or others who have not power and right to call ▪ much lesse is it lawfull by their owne judgement or arbitr●ment , to assume and arrogate the same to themselves : but before it bee lawfull to undergoe that sacred ministery in churches constituted , a speciall calling , yea beside , a lawfull election ( which alone is not sufficient ) a mission , or sending , or ( as commonly it is tearmed ) ordination , is necessarily required , and that both for the avoiding of confusion , and to bar out or shut the door ( so far as in us lieth ) upon impostors ; as also by reason of divine institution delivered to us in the holy scripture , rom. 10. 15. heb. 5. 4. tit. 1. 5. 1 tim. 1. 14. 4. the church ought to bee governed by no other persons then ministers and stewards preferred and placed by christ , and after no other manner then according to the laws made by him ; and therefore , there is no power on earth which may chalenge to it self authority or dominion over the church : but whosoever they are that would have the things of christ to bee administred not according to the ordinance and will of christ revealed in his word , but as it liketh them , and according to their own will and prescript , what other thing goe they about to doe then by horrible sacriledge to throw down christ from his own throne . 5. for our onely law-giver and interpreter of his fathers will , jesus christ , hath prescribed and foreappointed the rule according to which hee would have his worship and the government of his owne house to bee ordered . to wrest this rule of christ laid open in his holy word , to the counsells , wills , manners , devices 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of men , is most high impiety ; but contrarily , the law of faith commandeth the counsell and purposes of men to bee framed and conformed to this rule , and overtuneth all the reasonings of worldly wisdome , and bringeth into captivity the thoughts of the proud swelling minde to the obedience of christ . neither ought the voice of any to take place or bee rested upon in the church , but the voice of christ alone . 6. the same lord and our saviour jesus christ , the only head of the church hath ordained in the new testament , not only the preaching of the word and administration of baptisme and the lords supper , but also ecclesiasticall government , distinct and differing from the civill government , and it is his will that there bee such a government distinct from the civill in all his churches every where , as well those which live under christian , as those under infidell magistrates , even untill the end of the world . heb. 13. 7 , 17. 1 tim. 5. 17 , 19. rom. 12. 8. 1 cor. 12. 28. 1 thes. 5. 12. acts 1. 20 , 28. luke 12. 42. 1 tim. 6. 14. apoc. 2. 25. 7. this ecclesiasticall government distinct from the civill , is from god committed , not to the whole body of the church or congregation of the faithfull , or to bee exercised both by officers and people , but to the ministers of gods word , together with the elders which are joyned with them for the care and government of the church , 1 tim. 5. 17. to these therefore who are over the church in the lord , belongeth the authority and power , and it lyeth upon them by their office , according to the rule of gods word to discerne and judge betwixt the holy and prophane , to give diligence for amendment of delinquents , and to purge the church ( as much as is in them ) from scandalls , and that not only by enquiring , inspection , warning , reproving , and more sharply expostulating , but also by acting in the further and more severe parts of ecclesiasticall discipline , or exercising , ecclesiastick jurisdiction ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the greatest and weightiest censures , where need is . 8. none that is within the church ought to bee without the reach of church-law , and exempt from ecclesiastick censures ; but discipline is to be exercised on all the members of the church , without respect or consideration of those adhering qualities , which use to commend a man to other men , such , as power , nobility , illustrious descent , and the like : for the judgement cannot bee right , where men are led and moved with these considerations . wherefore , let respect of persons be farre from all judges , chiefly the ecclesiasticall : and if any in the church doe so swell in pride , that he refuse to be under this discipline , and would have himself to be free and exempt from all tryall and ecclesiastick judgement , this mans disposition is more like the haughtinesse of the romane pope , then the meeknesse and submissivenesse of christs sheep . 9. ecclesiasticall censure moreover , is either proper to bee inflicted upon the ministers and office-bearers onely , or with them common to other members of the church ; the former consisteth in suspension or deposition of ministers from their office ( which in the ancient canons is called {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) the latter consisteth in the greater and lesser excommunication , ( as they speak . ) whatsoever in another brother deserveth excommunication , the same much more in a mininister deserveth excommunication : but justly sometimes a minister is to bee put from his office , and deprived of that power which by ordination was given him , against whom neverthelesse to draw the sword of excommunication , no reason doth compell . 10. sometime also it happeneth that a minister having fallen into heresie or apostasie , or other grievous crimes , if hee shew tokens of true repentance , may bee justly received into the communion of the church ; whom notwithstanding , it is no way expedient to restore into his former place or charge ; yea , perhaps it will not bee found fit to restore such a one to the ministery in another congregation , as soone as hee is received into the bosome of the church ; which surely is most agreeable as well as to the word of god , 2 king. 23. 9. ezech. 44. 10 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14. as to that ecclesiasticall discipline , which in some ages after the times of the apostles was in use . so true is it that the ministers of the church are lyable as well to peculiar as to common censures ; or that a minister of the church is censured one way , and one of the people another way . 11. ecclesiasticall censure , which is not proper to ministers , but common to them with other members of the church , is either suspension from the lords supper , ( which by others is called the publicanes excommunication , ) or the cutting off of a member , which is commonly called excommunication . the distinction of this twofold censure ( commonly , though not so properly passing under the name of the lesser and greater excommunication ) is not onely much approved by the church of scotland , and the synode now assembled at westminster , but also by the reformed churches of france , the low-countreys , and of pole-land , as is to be seen in the book of the ecclesiastick discipline of the reformed churches in france . chap. 5. art. 9. in the harmonie of the belgicks synodes . chap. 14. art. 8. 9. in the canons of the generall synode of torne , held in the yeare 1597. 12. that the distinction of that twofold church censure was allowed also by antiquity , it may be sufficiently clear to him who will consult the sixtie one canon of the sixth generall synode , with the annotations of zonaras and balsamon ; also the thirteenth canon of the eighth synode ( which is termed the first and second ) with the notes of zonaras ; yea besides , even the penitennts also themselves of the fourth degree , or {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , that is , which were in the consistency , were suspended from the lords supper , though as to other things of the same condition with the faithfull ; for , to the communion also of prayers , and so to all priviledges of ecclesiasticall society , the eucharist alone excepted , they were thought to have right : so sacred a thing was the eucharist esteemed . see also beside others , cyprian 1. book . epist. 11. that dyanisius the author of the ecclesiastick hierarchie . chap. 3. part. 3. basil. epist. to amphilochius . can. 4 ambros. lib. 2. de officiis , chap. 27. augustine in his book against the donatists , after the conference , cap. 4. chrysostom homil. 83. in matth. gregor. the great epist , lib. 2. chap. 65. and 66. walafridus strabo of ecclesiasticall matters . chap. 17. 13. that first and lesser censure by christs ordinance , is to be inflicted on such as have received baptisme , and pretend to be true members of the church , yet are found unfit and unworthy to communicate in the signes of the grace of christ with the church , whether for their grosse ignorance of divine things , the law namely and gospel , or by reason of scandall either of false doctrine or wicked life . for these causes therefore , or for some one of them , they are to be kept back from the sacrament of the lords supper ( a lawfull judiciall tryall going before ) according to the interdiction of christ , forbidding that that which is holy be given to dogs , or pearles bee cast before swine , matth. 7. 6. and this censure of suspension is to continue , till the offenders bring forth fruits worthy of repentance . 14. for the asserting and defending of this suspension , there is no small accession of strength from the nature of the sacrament it self , and the institution and end thereof . the word of god indeed is to bee preached , as well to the ungodly and impenitent that they may bee convened , as to the godly and repenting , that they may be confirmed : but the sacrament of the lords supper is by god instituted , not for beginning the work of grace , but for nourishing and increasing grace , and therefore none is to be admitted to the lords supper , who by his life testifieth that hee is impenitent and not as yet converted . 15. indeed if the lord had instituted this sacrament , that not onely it should nourish and cherish faith , and seal the promises of the gospel , but also should begin the work of grace in sinners , and give regeneration it self , as the instrumentall cause thereof , verily even the most wicked , most uncleane and most unworthy were to be admitted . but the reformed churches do otherwise judge of the nature of this sacrament , which shall be abundantly manifest by the gleaning of these following testimonies . 16. the scottish confession , art. 23. but we confesse that the lords supper belongs onely to those of the houshold of faith , who can try and examine themselves , as well in faith , as in the duties of faith towards their neigbours . whoso abide without faith , and in variance with their brethren , doe at that holy table eat and drink unworthily . hence it is that the pastors in our church doe enter on a publike and particular examination , both of the knowledge , conversation and life of those who are to be admitted to the lords table . the belgick confession . art. 35. wee beleeve also and confesse that our lord jesus christ hath ordained the holy sacrament of his supper , that in it he may nourish and uphold them whom hee hath already regenerated . 17. the saxon confession . art. 15. of the lords supper . the lord willeth that every receiver bee particularly confirmed by this testimony , so that hee may bee certified that the benefits of the gospel doe appertaine to himself , seeing the preaching is common , and by this testimony ▪ by this receiving , he sheweth that thou art one of his members , and washed with his blood . and by and by . thus therefore we instruct the church , that at behooveth them that come to the supper , to bring with them repentance or conversion , and ( faith being now kindled in the mediation of the death and resurrection , and the benefits of the son of god ) to seek here the confirmation of this faith . the very same things are set downe , and that in the very same words in the consent of the churches of pole-land in the sendomi●ian synode , anno 1570. art. of the lords supper . 18. the bohemian confession . art. 11. next our divines teach that the sacraments of themselves , or as some say , ex opere operato , doe not confer grace to those , who are not first endued with good motions and inwasdly quickened by the holy spirit , neither doe they bestow justifying faith , which maketh the soul of man in all things obsequious , trusting and obedient to god ; for faith must goe before ( wee speake of them of ripe yeares ) which quickeneth a man by the work of the holy spirit , and putteth good motions into the heart . and after : but if any come unworthily to the sacraments , hee is not made by them worthy or cleane , but doth only bring greater sinne and damnation on himself . 19. seeing then in the holy supper , that is in the receiving the sacramentall elements ( which is here distinguished from the prayers and exhortations accompanying that action ) the benefits of the gospel are not first received , but for them being received are thanks given ; neither by partaking thereof doth god bestow the very spirituall life , but doth preserve , cherish and perfect that life ; and seeing the word of god is accounted in the manner of letters patents , but sacraments like seals , ( as rightly the helvetian confession saith , chap. 19. ) it plainly followeth that those are to be kept back from the lords supper , which by their fruits and manners doe prove themselves to be ungodly or impenitent , and strangers or alients from all communion with christ ▪ nor are the promises of grace sealed to any other then to those to whom these promises doe belong , for otherwise the seal annexed should contradict and gainsay the letters patents ; and by the visible word those should bee loosed and remitted , which by the audible word are bound and condemned : but this is such an absurdity , as that if any would , yet hee cannot smooth or heal it with any plaister . 20. but as known , impious , and unregenerate persons , have no right to the holy table : so also ungodly persons by reason of a grievous scandall are justly for a time deprived of it ; for it is not lawfull or allowable that the comforts and promises which belong onely to such as beleeve and repent , should be sealed unto known unclean persons , and those who walk inordinatly , whether such as are not yet regenerate , or such as are regenerate , but fallen and not yet restored or risen from their fall . the same discipline plainly was shaddowed forth under the old testament , for none of gods people during their legall pollution , was permitted to enter into the tabernacle , or to have accesse to the solemne sacrifices and society of the church : and much more were wicked and notorious offenders debarred from the temple ever untill by an offering for sinne , together with a solemne confession thereof , being cleansed , they were reconciled unto god . num. 5. 6 , 7 , 8. lev. 5. to the 7. vers. lev. 6. to vers. 8. 21. yea that those who were polluted with sins and crimes were reckoned among the unclean in the law , maimonides in more nevochim , part. 3. chap. 47. proveth out of lev. 20. 3. lev. 18. 24. num. 35. 33 , 34. therefore seeing the shedding of mans blood was rightly esteemed the greatest pollution of all ; hence it was , that as the society of the leprous was shunned by the cleane , so the company of murtherers by good men was most religiously avoided , lament . 4. 13 , 14 , 15. the same thing is witnessed by ananias the high priest , in josephus of the jewish warre . 4. book , chap. 5. where hee saith that those false zelots of that time , bloody men , ought to have been restrained from accesse to the temple , by reason of the pollution of murther ; yea as philo the jew witnesseth in his book of the offerers of sacrifices ; whosoever were found unworthy and wicked , were by edict forbidden to approach the holy thresholds . 22. neither must that be part by which was noted by zonaras , book 4. of his annals , ( whereof see also scaliger agreeing with him , in elench . triheres . nicserrar . cap. 28 ) namely that the essenes were forbidden the holy place as being hainous and p●acular transgressers , and such as held other opinions , and did otherwise teach concerning sacrifices then according to the law , and observed not the ordinances of moses , whence it proceeded that they sacrificed privately ; yea and also the essenes themselves did thrust away from their congregations those that were wicked . whereof see drusius of the three sects of jews , lib. 4. cap. 22. 23. god verily would not have his temple to bee made open to unworthy and uncleane worshippers , nor was it free for such men to enter into the temple . see nazianzen , orat. 21. the same thing is witnessed and declared by divers late writers , such as have beene and are more acquainted with the jewish antiquities . consult the annotations of vetablus and of ainsworth an english writer upon psal. 118. 19 , 20. also constantius l'empereur annotat , in cod. middoth , cap. 2. pag. 44 , 45. cornelius bertramus , of the common-wealth of the hebrews . cap. 7. henrie vorstius , animadvers. in pi●k . rab. eliezer . pag. 169. the same may bee proved out of ezech. 23. 38 , 39. jer. 7. 9 , 10 , 11 , 12. whence also it was that the solemne and publike society in the temple , had the name of the assembly of the righteous , and congregation of saints . psal. 89. 5 , 7. psal. 111. 1. psal. 147. 1. hence also is that , psal. 118. 19 , 20. of the gates of righteousnesse by which the righteous enter . 24. that which is now driven at , is not that all wicked and unclean persons should be utterly excluded from our ecclesiasticall societies , and so from all hearing of gods word ; yea there is nothing lesse intended : for the word of god is the instrument as well of conversion as of confirmation , and therefore is to bee preached as well to the not converted as to the converted , as well to the repenting as the unrepenting : the temple indeed of jerusalem had speciall promises , as it were pointing out with the finger a communion with god through christ , 1 king. 8. 30 , 48. dan. 6. 10. 2 chron. 6. 16. and 7. 15 , 16. but t is far otherwise with our temples , or places of church assemblies , because our temples containe nothing sacramentall in them , such as the tabernacle and temple contained ; as the most learned professors of leyden said rightly , in synops. pur. thelogie disput. 48. thes. 47. 25. wherefore the point to be here considered as that which is now aimed at , is this , that howsoever even under the new testament , the uncleannesse of those to whom the word of god is preached bee tolerated ; yet all such , of what estate or condition soever in the church , as are defiled with manifest and grievous scandals , and doe thereby witnesse themselves to be without the inward and spirituall communion with christ and the faithfull , may and are to bee altogether discharged from the communion of the lords supper , untill they repent and change their manners . 26. besides , even those to whom it was not permitted to go into the holy courts of israel , and to ingyre themselves into ecclesiasticall communion , and who did stand betweene the court of israel and the utter wall , were not therefore to be kept back from hearing the word ; for in solomons porch , and so in the intermurale or court of the gentiles , the gospel was preached , both by christ , john 10 23. and also by the apostles , acts 3. 11. and 5. 12. and that of purpose , because of the reason brought by pineda , of the things of salomon , book 5. chap. 19. because a more frequent multitude was there , and somewhat larger opportunity of sowing the gospel : wherefore to any whomsoever , even heathen people meeting there , the lord would have the word to be preached , who notwithstanding , purging the temple , did not onely overthrow the tables of money changers , and chaires of those that sold doves , but also , cast forth the buyers and sellers them●elves , matth. 21. 12. for hee could not endure either such things , or such persons in the temple . 27. although then the gospel is to be preached to every creature , the lord in expresse words commanding the same , mark . 16. 15. yet not to every one is set open an accesse to the holy supper . t is granted that hypocrites do lurk in the church , who hardly can be convicted and discovered , much lesse repelled from the lord supper . such therefore are to be suffered , till by the fanne of judgement the graine bee separate from the chaffe ; but those whose wicked deeds or words are knowne and made manifest , are altogether to bee debarred from partaking those symboles of the covenant of the gospel , lest that the name of god bee greatly disgraced , whilest sins are permitted to spread abroad in the church unpunished ; or lest the stewards of christ by imparting the signes of the grace of god , to such as are continuing in the state of impurity and scandall , bee partakers of their sinnes . hitherto of suspension . 28. excommunication ought not to be proceeded unto , except when extreme necessity constraineth : but whensoever the soul of the sinner cannot otherwise bee healed , and that the safety of the church requireth the cutting off of this or that member , it behoveth to use this last remedy . in the church of rome indeed excommunication hath beene turned into greatest injustice and tyrannie ( as the pharisees abused the casting out of the synagogues , which was their excommunication ) to the fulfilling of the lust of their own mindes ; yet the ordinance of christ is not therefore by any of the reformed religion to be utterly thrust away and wholly rejected . what protestant knows not that the vassals of antichrist have drawn the lords supper into the worst and most pernicious abuses , as also the ordination of ministers and other ordinances of the gospel ? yet who will say that things necessary , ( whether the necessity be that of command , or that of the means or end ) are to be taken away because of the abuse ? 29. they therefore who with an high hand do persevere in their wickednesse , after foregoing admonitions stubbornly despised or carelessely neglected , are justly by excommunication in the name of the lord jesus christ cut off and cast out from the society of the faithfull , and are pronounced to bee cast out from the church , untill beeing filled with shame and cast downe , they shall returne againe to a more sound minde , and by confession of their sinne and amendment of their lives , they shall shew tokens of repentance , matth. 18. 16 , 17 , 18. 1 cor. 5. 13. which places are also alleadged in the confession of bohemia , art. 8. to prove that the excommunication of the impenitent and stubborne , whose wickednesse is known , is commanded of the lord : but if stubborne heretickes or unclean persons be not removed or east out from the church , therein doe the governours of the church sinne , and are found guilty rev. 2. 14 , 20. 30. but that all abuse and corruption in ecclesiasticall government may be either prevented and avoided or taken away , or lest the power of the church either by the ignorance or unskilfulnesse of some ministers here and there , or also by too much heat and fervour of minde , should run out beyond measure or bounds , or contrariwise beeing shut up within straiter limits then is fitting , should be made unprofitable , feeble , or of none effect : christ the most wise law-giver of his church hath foreseen and made provision to prevent all such evills which he did foresee were to arise , and hath prepared and prescribed for them intrinsecall and ecclesiasticall remedies , and those also in their kinde ( if lawfully and rightly applyed ) both sufficient and effectuall : some whereof he hath most expresly propounded in his word , and some he hath left to bee drawne from thence by necessary consequence . 31. therefore by reason of the danger of that which is called calvis errans , or a wrong key ; and that it may not bee permitted to particular churches to erre or sin licentiously , and lest any mans cause be overthrown and perish , who in a particular church had perhaps the same men both his adversaries and his judges ; also that common businesses which doe belong to many churches , together with the more weighty and difficult controversies , ( the deciding whereof in the consistories of particular churches is not safe to bee adventured upon ) may bee handled and determined by a common counsell of presbyteries . finally that the governours of particular churches , may impart help mutually one to another against the cunning and subtill enemies of the truth , and may joyne their strength together ( such as it is ) by an holy combination , and that the church may bee as a camp of an army well ordered ; lest while every one striveth singly , all of them bee subdued and overcome ; or lest by reason of the scarcity of prudent and godly counsellers ( in the multitude of whom is safety ) the affaires of the church be undone : for all those considerations particular churches must bee subordinate to classicall presbyteries and synodes . 32. wherefore t is not lawfull to particular churches or ( as commonly they are called ) parochiall , either to decline the authority of classes or synodes , where they are lawfully setled , or may be had ( much lesse to withdraw themselves from that authority , if they have once acknowledged it ) or to refuse such lawfull ordinances or decrees of the classes or synodes , as being agreeable to the word of god are with authority imposed upon them . acts 15. 2 , 6 , 22 , 23 , 24 , 28 , 29. acts 16. 4. 33. although synodes assemble more seldome , classes and consistories of particular churches more frequently ; yet that synodes both provinciall and nationall assemble at set and ordinary times as well as classes and parochiall consistories is very expedient , and for the due preservation of church policie and discipline , necessary . sometime indeed it is expedient they bee assembled occasionally , that the urgent necessity of the church may be the more speedily provided for , namely when such a businesse happeneth , which without great danger cannot bee put off till the appointed time of the synode . 34. but that besides occasionall synodes , ordinary synodes be kept at set times , is most profitable , not onely that they may discusse and determine the more difficult ecclesiasticall causes coming before them , whether by the appeal of some person agrieved , or by the hesitation or doubting of inferiour assemblies ( for such businesses very often fall out ; ) but also that the state of the churches whereof they have the care , beeing more certainly and frequently searched and knowne , if there be any thing wanting or amisse in their doctrine , discipline or manners , or any thing worthy of punishment , the slothfull labourers in the vineyard of the lord may bee made to shake off the spirit of slumber and slothfulnesse , and be stirred up to the attending and fulfilling more diligently their calling , and not suffered any longer to sleep and snort in their office ; the straglers and wanderers may bee reduced to the way ; the untoward and stiffe-necked , which scarce or very hardly suffer the yoke of discipline , as also unquiet persons which devise new and hurtfull things , may bee reduced to order . finally , whatsoever doth hinder the more quick and efficacious course of the gospel , may be discovered and removed . 35. it is too too manifest ( alas for it ) that there are , which with unwearyed diligence do most carefully labour , that they may oppresse the liberties and rights of synodes , and may take away from them all libertie of consulting of things and matters ecclesiasticall , at least of determining thereof , ( for they well know how much the union and harmonie of churches may make against their designes . ) but so much the more it concerneth the orthodox churches , to know , defend and preserve this excellent liberty granted to them by divine right , and so to use it , that imminent dangers , approaching evils , urging grievances , scandalls growing up , schismes rising , heresies creeping in , errours spreading , and strifes waxing hote , may be corrected and taken away , to the glory of god , the edification and peace of the church . 36. beside provinciall and national synodes , an oecumenicall ( so called from {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , that is from the habitable world ) or more truely a generall , or if you will , an universall synode , if so be it be free and rightly constituted , and no other commissioners but orthodox churches bee admitted ( for what communion is there of light with darknesse , of righteousnesse with unrighteousnesse , or of the temple of god with idols ) such a synode is of speciall utility , peradventure also such a synode is to be hoped for , surely t is to be wished , that for defending the orthodox faith , both against popery and other heresies , as also for propagating it to those who are without , especially the jews , a more strait and more firme consociation may bee entered into . for the unanimity of all the churches as in evill t is of all things most hurtfull , so on the contrary side , in good it is most pleasant , most profitable and most effectuall . 37. unto the universall synode also ( when it may bee had ) is to bee referred the judgement of controversies , not of all , but of those which are controversiae juris , controversies of right , neither yet of all those , but of the chief and most weighty controversies of the orthodox faith , or of the most hard and unusuall cases of conscience . of the controversies of fact there is another and different consideration to be had ; for besides that it would be a great inconvenience that plaintifes , persons accused , and witnesses bee drawne from the most remote churches , to the generall or universall councell ; the visible communion it self of all the churches ( on which the universal counsel is built , and whereupon as on a foundation it leaneth ) is not so much of company , fellowship , or conversation , as of religion and doctrine . all true churches of the world doe indeed professe the same true religion and faith ; but there is beside this a certaine commixture and conjunction of the churches of the same nation , as to a more near fellowship , and some acquaintance , conversing and companying together , which cannot be said of all the churches throughout the habitable world . 38. and for this cause , as in doctrinall controversies which are handled by theologues and casuists , and in those which belong to the common state of the orthodoxe churches , the nationall synode is subo dinate and subjected to the universall lawfully constituted synode , and from the nationall to the oecumenicall synode ( when there is a just and weighty cause ) an appeal is open : so there is no need that the appeals of them who complaine of injurie done to them through the exercise of discipline in this or that church , should goe beyond the bounds of the nationall synode ; but t is most agreeable to reason that they should rest and acquiesce within those bounds and borders : and that the ultimate judgement of such matters bee in the nationall synode , unlesse the thing it selfe be so hard and of so great moment , that the knot be justly thought worthy of a greater decider : in which case the controversie which is carried to the universall synode , is rather of an abstract generall theologicall proposition , then of the particular or individuall case . 39. furthermore the administration of the ecclesiastick power in consistories , classes and synodes , doth not at all tend to weaken in any wise , hurt or minish the authority of the civil magistrate , much lesse to take it away or destroy it , yea rather by it a most profitable help cometh to the magistrate , forasmuch as by the bond of religion , mens consciences are more straitly tyed unto him . there hath been indeed phantasticall men who under pretence and cloak of christian liberty , would abolish and cast out lawes and judgements , orders also , degrees and honours out of the commonwealth , and have been bold to reckon the function of the magistrate armed with the sword , among evill things and unlawfull : but the reformed churches doe renounce and detest those dreames , and do most harmoniously and most-willingly confesse and acknowledge it to be gods will that the world bee governed by lawes and policy , and that hee himself hath appointed the civill magistrate , and hath delivered to him the sword to the protection and praise of good men , but for punishment and revenge on the evill , that by this bridle , mens vices and faults may be restrained , whether committed against the first or against the second table . 40. the reformed churches beleeve also and openly confesse the power and authority of emperours over their empires , of kings over their kingdomes , of princes and dukes over their dominions , and of other magistrates or states over their commonwealths and cities , to be the ordinances of god himself , appointed as well to the manifestation of his owne glory , as to the singular profit of mankinde : and withall , that by reason of the will of god himself revealed in his word , wee must not onely suffer and be content that those doe rule which are set over their own territories , whether by hereditary or by elective right , but also to love them , fear them , and with all reverenee and honour imbrace them as the ambassadours and ministers of the most high and good god , being in his stead , and preferred for the good of their subjects ; to powre out prayers for them , to pay tributes to them , and in all businesse of the commonwealth which are not against the word of god , to obey their lawes and edicts . 41. the orthodoxe churches beleeve also , and doe willingly acknowledge , that every lawfull magistrate , being by god himself constituted the keeper and defender of both tables of the law , may and ought first and chiefly to take care of gods glory , and ( according to his place , or in his manner and way ) to preserve religion when pure , and to restore it when decayed and corrupted ; and also to provide a learned and godly ministery , schools also and synodes , as likewise to restraine and punish as well atheists , blasphemers , hereticks and schismaticks , as the violaters of justice and civill peace . 42. wherefore the opinion of those sectaries of this age is altogether to be disallowed , who , though otherwise insinuating themselves craftily into the magistrates favour , doe deny unto him the authority and right of restraining hereticks and schismaticks , and do hold and maintaine that such persons how much soever hurtfull and pernicious enemies to true religion and to the church , yet are to bee tolerated by the magistrate , if so bee he conceive them to bee such as no way violate the laws of the commonwealth , and in no wise disturbe the civill peace . 43. yet the civill power and the ecclesiasticall ought not by any meanes to be confounded or mixed together : both powers are indeed from god and ordained for his glory , and both to be guided by his word , and both are comprehended under that precept , honour thy father and thy mother : so that men ought to obey both civill magistrates and ecclesiasticall governours in the lord ; to both powers their proper dignity and authority is to be maintained and preserved in force : to both also is some way entrusted the keeping of both tables of the law , also both the one and the other doth exercise some jurisdiction , and giveth sentence of judgement in an externall court or judicatory : but these , and other things of like sort , in which they agree notwithstanding , yet by marvellous vaste differences are they distinguished the one from the other , and the rights of both remaine distinct , and that eight manner of wayes , which it shall not bee amisse here to adde , that unto each of these administrations , its own set bounds may bee the better maintained . 44. first of all therefore they are differenced the one from the other , in respect of the very foundation and the institution : for the politicall or civill power is grounded upon the law of nature it selfe , and for that cause it is common to infidels with christians : the power ecclesiasticall dependeth immediatly upon the positive law of christ alone , that beer longeth to the universall dominion of god the creator oveall nations ; but this unto the speciall and oeconomicall king dome of christ the mediator , which hee exerciseth in the church alone , and which is not of this world . 45. the second differences in the object , or matter about which : the power politick or civill is occupied about the outward man , and civill or earthly things , about warre , peace , conservation of justice , and good order in the commonwealth ; also about the outward businesse or externall things of the church , which are indeed necessary to the church , or profitable , as touching the outward man , yet not properly and purely spirituall , for they doe not reach unto the soul , but only to the externall state and condition of the ministers and members of the church . 46. for the better understanding whereof , t is to bee observed that so farre as the ministers and members of the church are citizens , subjects , or members of the commonwealth , it is in the power of the magistrate , to judge , determine and give sentence concerning the disposing of their bodies or goods ; as also concerning the maintenance of the poor , sick , the banished , and of others in the church which are afflicted ; to regulate ( so farre as concerneth the civill order ) marriages , burials , and other circumstances which are common both to holy , and also to honest civill societies ; to affoord places fit for holy assemblies and other externall helps by which the sacred matters of the lord may be more safely , commodiously , and more easily in the church performed : to remove the externall impediments of divine worship or of ecclesiasticall peace , and to represse those which exalt themselves against the true church and her ministers , and doe raise up trouble against them . 47. the matter may further bee thus illustrated : there is almost the like respect and consideration of the magistrate as he is occupied about the outward things of the church , and of the ecclesiastick ministery as it is occupied about the inward or spirituall part of civill government , that is , about those things which in the government of the commonwealth belong to the conscience . it is one thing to governe the commonwealth , and to make politicall and civill lawes ; another thing to interpret the word of god , and out of it to shew to the magistrate his duty , to wit , how he ought to governe the commonwealth , and in what manner he ought to use the sword . the former is proper and peculiar to the magistrate ( neither doth the ministery intermeddle or intangle it self into such businesses , ) but the latter is contained within the office of the ministers . 48. for to that end also is the holy scripture profitable , to shew which is the best manner of governing a commonwealth , and that the magistrate as being gods minister may by this guiding starre bee so directed , as that he may execute the parts of his office , according to the will of god , and may perfectly be instructed to every good work ; yet the minister is not said properly to treat of civill businesses , but of the scandalls which arise about them , or of the cases of conscience which occurre in the administration of the commonwealth : so also the magistrate is not properly said to be exercised about the spiritual things of the church , but rather about those externall things which adhere unto and accompany the spirituall things . 49. and in such externall matters of the church , although all magistrates will not , yet all , yea even heathen magistrates may and ought to aide and help the church ; whence it is that by the command of god , prayers are to be made also for an heathen magistrate , that the faithfull under them may live a quiet life with all godlinesse and honesty . 1 tim. 2. 1 , 2. 50. unto the externall things of the church belongeth , not onely the correction of hereticks and other troublers of the church , but also that civill order and way of convocating and calling together synodes which is proper to the magistrate ; for the magistrate ought by his authority and power both to establish the rights and liberties of synodes assembling together , at times appointed by the knowne and received law , and to indict and gather together synodes occasionally , as often as the necessity of the church shall require the same ; not that all or any power to consult or determine of ecclesiastick or spirituall matters doth flow or spring from the magistrate as head of the church under christ ; but beecause in those things pertaining to the outward man , the church needeth the magistrates aid and support . 51. so that the magistrate calleth together synodes , not as touching those things which are proper to synodes ; but in respect of the things which are common to synodes with other meetings and civill publike assemblies , that is , not as they are assemblies in the name of christ , to treat of matters spirituall , but as they are publike assemblies within his territories ; for to the end that publike conventions may bee kept in any territorie , the licence of the lord of that place ought to be desired . in synodes therefore a respect of order , as well civill as ecclesiasticall is to bee had ; and because of this civill order , outward defence , better accommodation , together with safe accesse and recesse , the consent and commandment of him who is appointed to take care of , and defend humane order , doth interveene . 52. moreover when the church is rent asunder by unhappy and lamentable schismes , while they who have raised the troubles , and have given cause of solemne gathering a synode ( whether by their heresie or schisme or tyranny , or any other fault of others ) use to place the great strength and safeguard of their cause in declining and fleeing the triall and sentence of a free synode , as being formidable to them ; who seeth not that they cannot be drawn to a publike and judiciall tryall , nor other disobedient persons be compelled to obedience without the magistrate publike mandate and helpe ? 53. the object of ecclesiasticall power is not the same with the object of the civill power , but much differing from it ; for the ecclesiasticall power doth determine and appoint nothing concerning mens bodies , goods , dignities , civill rights , but is imployed only about the inward man , or the soul ; not that it can search the hearts , or judge of the secrets of the conscience , which is in the power of god alone : yet notwithstanding it hath for its proper object those externalls which are purely spirituall , and do belong properly and most nearly to the spirituall good of the soul ; which also are tearmed , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} the inward things of the church . 54. those things then wherein the ecclesiasticall power is exercised , are the preaching of the word , the administration of sacraments , publike prayer and thanksgiving , the catechising and instructing of children and ignorant persons , the examination of those who are to come to the holy communion , the ecclesiasticall discipline , the ordination of ministers , and the abdication , deposing , and degrading of them ( if they become like unsavory salt ) the deciding and determining of controversies of faith and cases of conscience , canonicall constitutions concerning the treasury of the church and collections of the faithfull , as also concerning ecclesiasticall rites , or indifferent things , which pertaine to the keeping of decency and order in the church , according to the generall rules of christian love and prudence contained in the word of god . 55. t is true that about the same things , the civill power is occupyed , as touching the outward man , or the outward disposing of divine things in this or that dominion , as was said ; not as they are spirituall and evangelicall ordinances piercing into the conscience it self ▪ but the object of the power ecclesiasticall is a thing meerly and purely spirituall ; and in so far as it is spirituall ) for even that jurisdiction ecclesiasticall which is exercised in an outward court or judicatory , and which inflicteth publike censures , forbiddeth from the use of the holy supper , and excludeth from the society of the church ) doth properly concerne the inward man , or the repentance and salvation of the soul . 56. surely the faithfull and godly ministers , although they could doe it unchallenged and uncontrolled , and were therein allowed by the magistrate ( as in the prelaticall times it was ) yet would not usurpe the power of life and death , or judge and determine concerning mens honours , goods , inheritance , division of families , or other civill businesses ; seeing they well know these things to bee heterogeneous to their office : but as they ought not to entangle themselves with the judgeing of civill causes , so if they should bee negligent and slothfull in their owne office , they shall in that bee no lesse culpable . 57. to the object also of ecclesiasticall power belongeth the assembling of synodes , so far as they are spirituall assemblies proper to the church , and assembled in the holy ghost ; for being so considered , the governours of churches after the example of the apostles and presbyters , acts 1 5. in a manifest danger of the church , ought to use their owne right of meeting together and conveening , that the churches endangered may be relieved and supported . 58. thirdly , those powers are differenced in respect of their formes , and that three wayes : for first the civill power , although in respect of god it bee ministeriall , yet in respect of the subjects it is lordly and magisteriall . ecclesiasticall power is indeed furnished with authority , yet that authority is liker the fatherly then the kingly authority ; yea also t is purely ministeriall , much lesse can it bee lawfull to ministers of the church to bear dominion over the flock . 59. emperours , kings , and other magistrates are indeed appointed fathers of the countrey , but they are withall lords of their people and subjects ; not as if it were permitted to them to bear rule and command at their own will and as they list ( for they are the ministers of god for the good and profit of the subjects ) yet it belongs to their power truely and properly to exercise dominion , to hold principality , to proceed imperiously . it is indeed the duety of ministers and rulers of the church to oversee , to feed as shepherds , to correct and rectifie , to bear the keyes , to bee stewards in the house of christ , but in no wise to bee lords over the house , or to governe as lords , or lordlike to rule ; yea in brief , this is the difference between the civill magistrate and the ecclesiasticall ministery , in respect of those which are committed to their trust , that the lot of the former is to bee served or ministred unto , the lot of the latter to minister or serve . 60. now we have one onely lord which governes our souls , neither is it competent to man , but to god alone to have power and authori●y over consciences . but the lord hath appointed his owne stewards over his own family , that according to his commandment they may give to every one their allowance or portion , and to dispense his mysteries faithfully ; and to them hee hath delivered the keyes , or power of letting in into his house , or excluding out of his house those whom hee himself will have let in or shut out . matth. 16. 19. and 18. 18. luk. 12. 42. 1 cor. 4. 1. tit. 1. 7. 61. next , the civill power is indued with authority of compelling , but it belongs not to the ministery to compell the disobedient ; if any compulsion bee in or about ecclesiasticall matters , t is adventitious from without , to wit , from the help and assistance of the magistrate , not from the nature of ecclesiasticall power , from which it is very heterogeneous ; and therefore if any suspended or excommunicate person should be found who shall be so stiffe-necked , and so impudent , that at once he cast off all shame , and make no account at all of those censures , but scorne and contemne the same , or peradventure shall insolently or proudly engyre and obtrude himself upon the sacrament , or being also filled with devillish malice do more and more contradict and blaspheme ; the ecclesiasticall ministery in such cases hath nothing more to do by way of jurisdiction : but the magistrate hath in readinesse a compelling jurisdiction and externall force , whereby such stubborne rebellious and undaunted pride may bee externally repressed . 62. last of all , the power of the magistrate worketh onely politically or civilly , according to the nature of the scepter or sword , maketh and guardeth civill lawes , which sometimes also he changeth or repealeth , and other things of that kinde hee effecteth with a secular power : but the ecclesiasticall power dealeth spiritually , and onely in the name of our lord jesus christ , and by authority entrusted or received from him alone : neither is it exercised without prayer or calling on the name of god ; nor lastly doth it use any other then spirituall weapons . 63. the same sinne therefore in the same man may be punished one way by the civill , another way by the ecclesiasticall power ; by the civill power under the formality of a crime , with corporall or pecuniary punishment ; by the ecclesiasticall power , under the notion and nature of scandall , with a spirituall censure , even as also the same civill question is one way deliberate upon and handled by the magistrate in the senate or place of judgement ; another way by the minister of the church , in the presbytery or synode ; by the magistrate so farre as it pertaineth to the government of the common-wealth , by the minister , so far as it respects the conscience ; for the ecclesiasticall ministery also is exercised about civill things spiritually , in so far as it teacheth and admonisheth the magistrate out of the word of god what is best and most acceptable unto gods or as it reproveth freely unjust judgements , unjust warres , and the like , and out of the scripture threatneth the wrath of god to be revealed against all unrighteousnesse of men ; so also is the magistrate said to bee occupied civilly about spirituall things . 64. therefore all the actions of the civill magistrate , even when hee is imployed about ecclesiasticall matters , are of their own nature and essentially civill : he punisheth externally idolaters , blasphemers , sacrilegious persons , hereticks , prophaners of holy things , and according to the nature and measure of the sinne hee condemneth to death or banishment , forfeiture of goods , or imprisonment ; he guardeth and underproppeth ecclesiasticall cannons with civill authority , giveth a place of habitation to the church in his territorie , restraineth or expelleth the insolent and untamed disturbers of the church . 65. hee taketh care also for maintaining the ministers and schools , and supplieth the temporall necessities of gods servants , by his command assembleth synodes , when there is need of them ; and summoneth , calleth out , and drawes to triall the unwilling , which without the magistrates strength and authority cannot be done , as hath been alreadie said ; he maketh synodes also safe and secure , and in a civill way presideth or moderateth in them ( if it so seem good to him ) either by himself or by a substitute commissioner . in all which the power of the magistrate though occupied about spirituall things , is not for all that spirituall but civill . 66. fourthly , they differ in the end : the immediate nearest end of civill power is , that the good of the commonwealth may bee provided for and procured , whether it be in time of peace , according to the rules of law and counsell of judges ; or in time of warre according to the rules of militarie prudence ; and so the temporall safety of the subjects may bee procured , and that externall peace and civill liberty may bee preserved , and being lost may be againe restored . 67. but the chiefest and last end of civill government is , the glory of god the creator , namely , that those which do evil being by a superiour power restrained or punished , & those which doe good getting praise of the same , the subjects so much the more may shun impiety and injustice , and that vertue , justice and the morall law of god ( as touching those eternall dueties of both tables , unto which all the posterity of adam are oblieged ) may remain in strength and flourish . 68. but whereas the christian magistrate doth wholly devote himself to the promoting of the gospel and kingdom of christ , and doth direct and bend all the might and strength of his authority to that end : this proceedeth not from the nature of his office or function , which is common to him with an infidell magistrate ; but from the influence of his common christian calling into his particular vocation . 69. for every member of the church ( and so also the faithfull and godly magistrate ) ought to referre and order his particular vocation , faculty , ability , power and honour to this end , that the kingdome of christ may bee propagated and promoted , and the true religion bee cherished and defended : so that the advancement of the gospel and of all the ordinances of the gospel , is indeed the end of the godly magistrate , not of a magistrate simply ; or ( if yee will rather ) t is not the end of the office it self , but of him who doth execute the same piously . 70. but the end of ecclesiasticall power , yea the end as well of the ministery it self , as of the godly minister , is , that the kingdome of christ may bee set forward , that the pathes of the lord bee made straight , that his holy mysteries may bee kept pure , that stumbling-blocks may bee removed out of the church , lest a little leaven , leaven the whole lump ; or lest one sick or scabbed sheep infect the whole flock ; that the faithfull may so walk as it becometh the gospel of christ , and that the wandering sheep of christ may be converted and brought back to the sheepfold . 71. and seeing this power is given of the lord , not to destruction but to edification ; therefore this same scope is propounded in excommunication , ( which is the greatest and last of ecclesiasticall censures ) namely , that the soul of an offending brother may be gained to christ , and that being stricken with fear , and the stubborne sinner filled with shame , may by the grace of god be humbled , and may ( as a brand plucked out of the fire ) bee snatched out of the snare of the devill , and may repent unto salvation ; at least the rest may turne away from those which are branded with such a censure , lest the soul infection do creep and spread further . 72. fifthly , they are distinguished by the effect . the effect of civill power is either proper or by way of redundance ; the proper effect is the safety temporall of the common-wealth , externall tranquillity , the fruition of civill liberty , and of all things which are necessary to the civill society of men : the effect by way of redundance is the good of the church , to wit , in so far as by execution of justice and good lawes , some impediments that usually hinder and disturbe the course of the gospel , are avoided or taken away . 73. for by how much the more faithfully the magistrate executeth his office in punishing the wicked , and cherishing and encouraging good men , taking away those things which withstand the gospel , and punishing or driving away the troublers and subverters of the church ; so much the more the orthodox faith and godlinesse are reverenced and had in estimation , sinnes are hated and feared : finally , all the subjects contained ( as much as concerneth the outward man ) within the lists of gods law ; whence also by consequence it happeneth by gods blessing , that the church is defiled with fewer scandals , and doth obtaine the more freedome and peace . 74. but the proper effect of the ecclesiasticall power , or keyes of the kingdome of heaven is wholly spirituall ; for the act of binding and loosing , of retaining and remitting sins , doth reach to the soul and conscience it self ( which cannot be said of the act of the civill power : ) and as unjust excommunication is void , so ecclesiasticall censure being inflicted by the ministers of christ and his stewards according to his will , is ratified in heaven , matth. 18. 18. and therefore ought to be esteemed and acknowledged in like manner as inflicted by christ himself . 75. sixthly , they are also differenced in respect of the subject : the politick power is committed sometimes to one , sometimes to more , sometime by right of election , sometime by right of succession : but the ecclesiasticall power is competent to none under the new testament by the right of succession , but he who hath it must be called by god and the church to it ; neither was it given by christ to one either pastor or elder , much lesse to a prelate , but to the church , that is to the consistory of presbyters : t is confessed indeed , and who can bee ignorant of it , that the power ( as they call it ) of order doth belong to particular ministers , and is by each of them apart lawfully exercised ? but that power which is commonly called of jurisdiction is committed not to one , but to the unity , that is to a consistory ; therefore ecclesiasticall censure ought not to be inflicted but by many . 2 cor. 2. 6. 76. seventhly , they differ as touching the correlative . god hath commanded that unto the civill power , every soul , or all members of the commonwealth , of what condition and estate soever be subject ; for what have wee to doe with the papists , who will have them whom they call the clergy or ecclesiasticall persons , to bee free from the yoke of the civill magistrate ? the ecclesiasticall power extends it self to none other subjects then unto those which are called brethren , or members of the church . 77. eighthly , there remaineth another difference in respect of the distinct and divided exercise of authority . for either power ceasing from its duty , or remitting punishment , that doth not ( surely it ought not ) prejudice the exercise of the other power ; namely if the magistrate cease to do his duty , or do neglect to punish with secular punishment those malefactors which by profession are church members : neverthelesse , it is in the power of the governours of the church , by the bridle of ecclesiasticall discipline to curb such men ; yea also by vertue of their office they are bound to doe it ; and on the other part , the magistrate may and ought to punish in life and limme , honours or goods , notwithstanding of the offenders repentance or reconciliation with the church . 78. therefore the one sword being put up in the scabbard , it is free and often necessary to draw the other . neither power is bound to cast out or receive him whom the other doth cast forth or receive : the reason whereof is , because the ecclesiasticall ministery doth chiefly respect the repentance to salvation , and gaining of the sinners soul ; wherefore it also imbraceth all kindes of wicked men repenting , and receiveth them into the bosome of the church : the magistrate proposeth to himself another and much differing scope ; for even repenting offenders are by him punished , both that justice and the lawes may be satisfied , as also to terrifie others ; hence it is that absolution from ecclesiastick censure freeth not at all the delinquent from civill judgement and the externall sword . 79. seeing then there are so many and so great differences of both offices , and seeing also that the function of ministers and elders of the church is not at all contained in the office of the magistrate ; neither on the other part , this is comprehended within that ; magistrates shall no lesse sin in usurping ecclesiasticall power , ministring holy things , ordaining ministers , or exercising discipline ecclesiasticall , then ministers should sin in rushing into the borders of the magistrate , and in thrusting themselves into his calling . 80. neither are those powers more mingled one with other , or lesse distinguished , where the magistrate is a christian , then where he is an infidell ; for as in a beleeving father and in an infidell father , the rights of a father are the same , so in a christian magistrate , and in an infidell magistrate , the rights of magistrates are the same ; so that to the magistrate converted to the christian faith , there is no accession of new right , or increase of civill power , although being indued with true faith and piety , he is made more fit and willing to the undergoing of his office and the doing of his duety . 81. so then the word of god and the law of christ which by so evident difference separateth and distinguisheth ecclesiasticall government from the civill , forbiddeth the christian magistrate to enter upon or usurpe the ministery of the word and sacraments , , or the juridicall dispensing of the keyes of the kingdome of heaven , to invade the church-government , or to chalenge to himself the right of both swords , spirituall and corporall ; but if any magistrate ( which god forbid ) should dare to arrogate to himself so much , and to enlarge his skirts so far , the church shall then straightway be constrained to complaine justly , and cry out , that though the pope is changed , yet popedome remaineth still . 82. it is unlawfull moreover to a christian magistrate to withstand the practise and execution of ecclesiasticall discipline , ( whether it be that which belongs to a particular church , or the matter be carried to a classe or synode ) now the magistrate withstandeth the ecclesiastick discipline , either by prohibitions and unjust lawes , or by his evill example stirring up and inciting others to the contempt thereof , or to the trampling it under foot . 83. surely the christian magistrate ( if at any time hee give any grievous scandall to the church , ) seeing he also is a member of the church , ought no wayes disdaine to submit himself to the power of the keyes ; neither is this to be marvelled at , for even as the office of the minister of the church is no wayes subordinate and subjected to the civill power , but the person of the minister , as he is a member of the common wealth is subject thereto : so the civill power it self , or the magistrate , as a magistrate , is not subjected to ecclesiastick power ; yet that man who is a magistrate ought ( as hee is a member of the church ) to be under the churches censure of his manners , after the example of the emperour theodosius , unlesse he will despise and set at nought ecclesiastick discipline , and indulge the swelling pride of the flesh . 84. if any man should again object that the magistrate is not indeed to resist ecclesiasticall government , yet that the abuses thereof are to be corrected and taken away by him : the answer is ready , in the worst and troublesome times , or in the decayed and troubled estate of things , when the ordinance of god in the church is violently turned into tyranny , to the treading down of true religion , and to the oppressing of the professors thereof , and when nothing almost is found or whole , divers things are yeelded to be lawfull to godly magistrates , which are not ordinarily lawfull for them , that so to extraordinary diseases extraordinary remedies may be applyed . so also the magistrate abusing his power unto tyranny , and making havock of all , t is lawfull to resist him by some extraordinary wayes and meanes , which are not ordinarily to bee allowed . 85. yet ordinarily and by common or known law and right in settled churches , if any man have recourse to the magistrate to complain , that through abuse of ecclesiastick discipline , injury is done to him , or if any sentence of the pastors and elders of the church , whether concerning faith or discipline , do displease or seem unjust unto the magistrate himself ; it is not for that cause lawfull to draw those ecclesiasticall causes to a civill tribunall , or to bring in a kinde of politicall or civill popedome . 86. what then ? shall it be lawfull ordinarily for ministers and elders to do what they list , or shall the governours in the churches , glorying in the law , by their transgression dishonour god : god forbid . for first , if they shall trespasse in any thing against the magistrate or municipall lawes , whether by intermedling in judging of civill causes , or otherwise disturbing the peace and order of the common-wealth , they are lyable to civill tryall and judgements , and it is in the power of the magistrate to restrain and punish them . 87. again it hath been before shewed , that to ecclesiasticall evils ecclesiasticall remedies are appointed and sitted , for the church is no lesse then the common-wealth , through the grace of god , sufficient to it self in reference unto her own end : and as in the common-wealth , so in the church , the errour of inferior judgements and assemblies , or their evil government , is to bee corrected by superior judgements and assemblies , and so still by them of the same order , lest one order be confounded with another , or one government bee intermingled with another government . what shall now the adversaries of ecclesiasticall power object here , which those who admit not the yoke of the magistrate may not bee ready in like manner to transferre against the civill judicatories and government of the common-wealth ? seeing it happeneth sometimes that the common-wealth is no lesse ill governed then the church . 88. if any man shall prosecute the argument , and say that yet no remedy is here shewed , which may bee applyed to the injustice or errour of a nationall synode : surely he stumbleth against the same stone , seeing he weigheth not the matter with an equall balance ; for the same may in like sort fall back and be cast upon parliaments , or any supreme senate of a common-wealth : for who seeth not the judgement of the supreme civill senate to be nothing more infallible , yea also in matters of faith and ecclesiasticall discipline , more apt and prone to errour ( as being lesse accustomed to sacred studies ) then the judgement of the nationall synode ? what medicines then , or what soveraigne plaisters shall be had which may be fit for the curing and healing of the errors and miscariages of the supreme magistrates and senate ? the very like , and beside all this , other and more effectuall medicines by which the errors of nationall synods may bee healed , are possible to be had . 89. there wanteth not a divine medicine and soveraigne balme in gilead ; for although the popish opinion of the infallibility of counsels , be worthily rejected and exploded ; yet t is not in vaine that christ hath promised , he shall be present with an assembly , which indeed and in truth meeteth together in his name ; with such an assembly verily he useth to be present by a spirituall aide and assistance of his own spirit , to uphold the falling , or to raise up the fallen . whence it is that divers times the errors of former synods are discovered and amended by the latter : sometimes also the second , or after thoughts of one and the same synode are the wiser and the better . 90. furthermore , the line of ecclesiasticall subordination is longer and further stretched then the line of civill subordination ; for a nationall synode must be subordinate and subject to an universall synode , in the manner aforesaid , whereas yet there is no oecumenicall parliament or generall civill court acknowledged , unto which the supreme civill senate in this or that nation should bee subject . finally , neither is the church altogether destitute of nearer remedies , whether an universall counsell may be had or not . 91. for the nationall synode ought to declare , and that with greatest reverence , to the magistrate , the grounds of their sentence , and the reasons of their proceedings , when hee demandeth or enquireth into the same , and desireth to bee satisfied : but if the magistrate neverthelesse do dissent , or cannot by contrary reasons ( which may be brought , if hee please ) move the synode to alter their judgement , yet may he require and procure that the matter be again debated and canvassed in another nationall synode ; and so the reasons of both sides being throughly weighed , may be lawfully determined in an ecclesiasticall way . 92. but as there is much indeed to be given to the demand of the magistrate ; so is there here a two-fold caution to be used : for first , notwithstanding of a future revision , it is necessary that the former sentence of the synode , whether concerning the administration of ecclesiastick discipline , or against any heresie , be forthwith put in execution ; lest by lingering and making of delayes , the evil of the church take deeper root , and the gangrene spread and creep further : and lest violence be done to the consciences of ministers , if they be constrained to impart the signes and seales of the covenant of grace to dogs and swine , that is , to unclean persons , wallowing in the mire of ungodlinesse ; and lest subtile men abuse such interims or intervals , so as that ecclesiasticall discipline altogether decay , and the very decrees of synods be accounted as cobwebs , which none feareth to break down . 93. next it may be granted that the matter may be put under a further examination , yet upon condition , that when it is come to the revision of the former sentence , regard may be had of the weaker which are found willing to bee taught , though they doubt , but that unto the wicked and contentious tempters , which do mainly strive to oppresse our liberty which we have in christ , and to bring us into bondage , we do not for a moment give place by subjecting our selves ; for what else seek they or wait for , then that under the pretence of a revising and of new debate , they cast in lets and impediments ever and anone , and that by cunning lyings in wait they may betray the liberty of the church , and in processe of time may by open violence more forceably breake in upon it , or at least constrain the ministers of the church to weave penelope's web , which they can never bring to an end . 94. moreover , the christian magistrate hath then only discharged his office in reference to ecclesiasticall discipline , when not onely he withdraweth nothing from it , and maketh no impedient to it , but also affordeth speciall furtherance and help to it , according to the prophecie , isa. 49. 23. and kings shall be thy nursing fathers , and queens thy nursing mothers . 95. for christian magistrates and princes embracing christ and sincerely giving their names to him , doe not only serve him as men , but also use their office to his glory , and the good of the church ; they defend , stand for , and take care to propagate the true faith and godlinesse , they afford places of habitation to the church , and furnish necessary helps and supports , turne away injuries done to it , restraine false religion , and cherish , underprop , and defend the rights and liberties of the church ; so farre they are from diminishing , changing or restraining those rights , for so the condition of the church were in that respect worse , and the liberty thereof more cut short , under the christian magistrate , then under the infidell or heathen . 96. wherefore seeing these nursing fathers , favourers , and defenders , can doe nothing against the trueth , but for the trueth , nor have any right against the gospel , but for the gospel ; and their power in respect of the church whereof they bear the care , being not privative or destructive , but cumulative and auxiliary , thereby it is sufficiently cleare , that they ought to cherish , and by their authority ought to establish the ecclesiasticall discipline ; but yet not with implicite faith , or blinde obedience : for the reformed churches doe not deny to any of the faithfull , much lesse to the magistrate , the judgement of christian prudence and discretion concerning those things which are decreed or determined by the church . 97. therefore , as to each member of the church respectively , so unto the magistrate belongeth the judgement of such things , both to apprehend and to judge of them ; for although the magistrate is not ordained and preferred of god , that he should be a judge of matters and causes spirituall , of which there is controversie in the church : yet is hee questionlesse judge of his own civill act , about spirituall things ; namely of defending them in his own dominions , and of approving or tolerating the same ; and if in this businesse hee judge and determine according to the wisdome of the flesh , and not according to the wisedome which is from above , he is to render an account thereof before the supream tribunall . 98. however the ecclesiasticall discipline , according as it is ordained by christ , whether it bee established and ratified by civill authority , or not , ought to be retained and exercised in the society of the faithfull ( as long as it is free and safe for them to come together in holy assemblies ) for the want of civill authority is unto the church like a ceasing gaine , but not like damage or losse ensuing ; as it superaddeth nothing more , so it takes nothing away . 99. if it further happen ( which god forbid ) that the magistrate do so farre abuse his authority , that hee doth straitly forbid what christ hath ordained ; yet the constant and faithfull servants of christ , will resolve and determine with themselves , that any extremities are rather to be undergone , then that they should obey such things , and that wee ought to obey god rather then men ; yea they will not leave off to performe all the parts of their office , being ready in the mean time to render a reason of their practise to every one that demandeth it , but specially unto the magistrate , ( as was said before . ) 100. these things are not to that end and purpose proposed , that these functions should be opposed one against another , in a hostile posture , or in termes of enmity , then which nothing is more hurtfull to the church and commonwealth , nothing more execrable to them who are truely and sincerely zealous for the house of god ( for they have not so learned christ : ) but the aime is , first and above all , that unto the king of kings and lord of lords jesus christ the onely monarch of the church , his own prerogative royall ( of which also himself in the world was accused , and for his witnessing a good confession thereof before pontius pilate , was unjustly condemned to death ) may be fully maintained and defended . 101. next , this debate tendeth also to this end , that the power as well of ecclesiasticall censu●e as of the civill sword being in force , the licentiousnesse of carnall men , which desire that there be too slack ecclesiasticall discipline or none at all , may be bridled , and so men may sin lesse , and may live more agreeably to the gospel . another thing here intended is , that errours on both sides being overthrowen , ( as well the errour of those who under a fair pretence of maintaining and defending the rights of magistracie , do leave to the church either no power , or that which is too weak ; as the errour of others , who under the vaile of a certaine suppositious and imaginary christian liberty , do turne off the yoke of the magistrate ) both powers may enjoy their owne priviledges ; adde hereto that both powers being circumscribed with their distinct borders and bounds , and also the one underpropped and strengthned by the help of the other , a holy concord betweene them may be nourished , and they may mutually and friendly imbrace one another . 102. last of all , seeing there are not wanting some unhappy men , who cease not to pervert the right wayes of the lord , and with all diligence goe about to shake off the yoke of the ecclesiasticall discipline , where now t is about to bee introduced , yea also where it hath been long agoe established , and as yet happily remaineth in force , it was necessary to obviate their most wicked purposes ; which things being so , let all which hath been said , passe with the good leave and liking of those orthodoxe churches in which the discipline of excommunication is not as yet in use : neither can any offence easily arise to them from hence ; yea ( if the best conjecture doe not deceive ) they cannot but rejoyce and congratulate at the defence and vindication of this discipline . 103. for those churches doe not deny but acknowledge and teach , that the discipline of excommunication is most agreeable to the word of god , as also that it ought to bee restored and exercised ; which also heretofore the most learned zachary vrsine in the declaration of his judgement concerning excommunication , exhibited to prince frederick the third count elector palatine , the title whereof is , judicium de disciplina ecclesiastica &c. excommunicatione , &c. 104. for thus he , in other churches where either no excommunication is in use , or t is not lawfully administred , and neverthelesse without all controversie , it is confessed and openly taught , that it ought justly to bee received and bee of force in the church : and a little after , lest also your highnesse by this new opinion doe sever your self and your churches from all other churches , as well those which have not excommunication , as those which have it ; forasmuch as all of them doe unanimously confesse , and alwayes confessed that there is reason why it ought to bee in use . 105. to the same purpose it tendeth which the highly esteemed philip melancthon in his common places , chap. of civill magistrates doth affirme : before ( sayeth he ) i warned that civill places and powers are to bee distinguished from the adhering confusions which arise from other causes , partly from the malice of the devill , partly from the malice of men , partly from the common infirmity of men , as it cometh to passe in other kindes of life and government ordained of god . no man doubteth , that ecclesiasticall government is ordained of god , and yet how many and great disorders grow in it from other causes . where he mentioneth a church government distinct from the civill , and that jure divino , as a thing uncontroverted . 106. neither were the wishes of the chief divines of zurick and berne wanting , for the recalling and restoring of the discipline of excommunication . so bullinger upon 1 cor. 5. and hitherto ( faith he ) of the of the ecclesiasticall chastising of wickednesse , but here i would have the brethren diligently warned , that they watch , and with all diligence take care that this wholesome medicine thrown out of the true church , by occasion of the popes avarice , may be reduced , that is , that scandalous sins bee punished , for this is the very end of excommunication , that mens manners may be well ordered , and the saints flourish , the prophane being restrained , lest wicked men by their impudencie and impiety increase and undoe all . it is our part ô brethren with greatest diligence to take care of these things ; for we see that paul in this place doth stirre up those that were negligent in this businesse . 107. aretius agreeth hereunto . problem . theolog. loc. 33. magistrates doe not admit the yoke , they are afraid for their honours , they love licentiousnesse , &c. the common people is too dissolute , the greatest part is most corrupt , &c. in the mean while i willingly confesse , that wee are not to despaire , but the age following will peradventure yeeld more tractable spirits , more milde hearts then our times have . see also lavater agreeing in this , homil. 52. on nehem. because the popes of rome have abused excommunication for the establishing of their owne tyrannie , it cometh to passe , that almost no just discipline can be any more settled in the church , but unlesse the wicked bee restrained , all things must of necessitie runne into the worst condition . see besides , the opinion of fabritius upon psal. 149 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9. of spirituall corrections , which hee groundeth upon that text compared with matthew 16. 19. and 18. 18. john 20. 23. 108. it can hardly bee doubted or called in question , but besides these , other learned and godly divines of those churches were and are of the same minde herein , with those now cited ; and indeed the very confession of faith of the churches of helvetia , chap. 18. may bee an evidence hereof . but there ought to bee in the mean time a just discipline amongst ministers , for the doctrine and life of ministers is diligently to be enquired of in synodes : those that sinne are to be rebuked of the elders , and to be brought againe into the way , if they bee curable ; or to be deposed , and like wolves driven away from the flock of the lord , if they bee incurable . that this manner of synodicall censure , namely of deposing ministers from their office for some great scandall , is used in the republike of zurick , lavater is witnesse , in his book of the rites and ordinances of the church of zurick , chap. 23. surely they could not be of that minde , that ecclesiasticall discipline ought to bee exercised upon delinquent ministers onely , and not also upon other rotten members of the church . 109. yea the helvetian confession in the place now cited , doth so taxe the inordinate zeal of the donatists and anabaptists ( which are so bent upon the rooting out of the tares out of the lords field , that they take not heed of the danger of plucking up the wheat ) that withall it doth not obscurely commend the ecclesiasticall forensicall discipline , as distinct from the civill power , and seeing ( say they ) t is altogether necessary that there bee in the church a discipline ; and among the ancients in times past excommunication hath been usuall , and ecclesiasticall courts have been among the people of god , among whom this discipline was exercised by prudent and godly men : it belongeth also to ministers according to the case of the times , the publike estate and necessitie , to moderate this discipline ; where this rule is ever to be held , that all ought to be done to edification , decently , honestly , without tyrannie and sedition ; the apostle also witnesseth , 2 cor. 13. that to himself , was given of god a power unto edification , and not unto destruction . 110. and now what resteth but that god bee intreated with continuall and ardent prayers , both that hee would put into the hearts of all magistrates zeal and care to cherish , defend , and guard the ecclesiastick discipline , together with the rest of christs ordinances , and to stop their eares against the importunate suites of whatsoever claw-backs which would stirre them up against the church ; and that also all governours and rulers of churches , being every where furnished and helped with the strength of the holy spirit , may diligently and faithfully execute this part also of their function , as it becometh the trustie servants of christ , which study to please their owne lord and master , more then men . 111. finally , all those who are more averse from ecclesiastick discipline , or ill affected against it , are to be admonished and intreated through our lord jesus christ , that they bee no longer entangled and enveagled with carnall prejudice , to give place in this thing to humane affections , and to measure by their owne corrupt reason spirituall discipline , but that they doe seriously think with themselves and consider in their mindes , how much better it were , that the lusts of the flesh were as with a bridle tamed , and that the repentance , amendment , and gaining of vicious men unto salvation may be sought , then that sinners bee left to their own disposition , and bee permitted to follow their owne lusts without controllment , and by their evill example to draw others headlong into ruine with themselves ; and seeing either the keyes of discipline must take no ruste , or the manners of christians will certainly contract much ruste ; what is here to be chosen , and what is to bee shunned , let the wise and godly , who alone take to heart the safety of the church , judge . finis . communion of churches, or, the divine management of gospel-churches by the ordinance of councils constituted in order according to the scriptures as also the way of bringing all christian parishes to be particular reforming congregationall churches, humbly proposed as ... a means of uniting those two holy and eminent parties the presbyterians and the congregationals ... / written by john eliot. eliot, john, 1604-1690. 1665 approx. 100 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 21 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2003-09 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a39224 wing e508 estc r24949 08701277 ocm 08701277 41580 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a39224) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 41580) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1258:31) communion of churches, or, the divine management of gospel-churches by the ordinance of councils constituted in order according to the scriptures as also the way of bringing all christian parishes to be particular reforming congregationall churches, humbly proposed as ... a means of uniting those two holy and eminent parties the presbyterians and the congregationals ... / written by john eliot. eliot, john, 1604-1690. [1], 38 p. printed by marmaduke johnson, cambridge [mass.] : 1665. reproduction of original in the huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng church polity. christian union. 2003-06 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-06 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2003-07 rina kor sampled and proofread 2003-07 rina kor text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-08 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion communion of churches : or , the divine management of gospel-churches by the ordinance of councils , constituted in order according to the scriptures . as also , the way of bringing all christian parishes to be particular reforming congregationall churches : humbly proposed , as a way which hath so much light from the scriptures of truth , as that it may lawfully be submitted unto by all ; and may , by the blessing of the lord , be a means of uniting those two holy and eminent parties , the presbyterians and the congregationals . as also to prepare for the hoped-for resurrection of the churches ; and to propose a way to bring all christian nations unto an unity of the faith and order of the gospel . written ▪ by iohn eliot , teacher of roxbury in n. e. psal. 1. ●…0 that ye may try the things that are excellent . 1 john 4 1. try the spirits . cambridge : printed by marmaduke iohnson . 1665. preface . although a few copies of this small script are printed ; yet it is not published , onely committed privately to some godly and able hands , to be viewed , corrected , amended , or rejected , as it shall be found to hold wright in the sanctuary ballance , or not . and it is the humble request of the author , that whatever objections ; rectification , or emendati●…ns may occurre●… , they may be conveyed unto him ; who desireth nothing may be accepted in the churches , but what is according to the will and minde of god , and tendeth to holiness , peace , and promotion of the holy kingdome of iesus christ. the procuring of half so many copies written and corrected , would be more difficult and chargeable , then the printing of these few . i beg the prayers , as well as the pains of the precio●…s servants of the lord ▪ that i may never have the least singer in doing any thing that may be derogatory to the holiness and honour of iesus christ and his churches . and to this i subscribe my self , one of the least of the labourers in our lords vineyard , john eliot . communion of churches : or , the divine management of gospel-churches by the ordinance of councils . chap. i. prolegomena ; or , things premised . i. there be two holy publick societies famous in the gospel : 1. a church of believers . 2. a council of churches . a church of believers , is a company of visible sainte combined together , with one heart , to hold communion in all the instituted gospel-worship , ordinances and discipline , which christ hath sitted for , and given unto a particular church . such a company are frequently called a church . see a few places : acts 2. 47 , & 11. 26. & 14. 23 , 27. 1 cor. 11. 18 , 20 , 22 , &c. a council , is a society of particular churches in communion , by their representatives , for their well-being , and well-ordering all things among them , by mutual , counsel , in truth , peace , and holiness . our pattern is , that great council , acts 15. which consisted of two churches , in an ordinary way expresly agreed , to give and take counsel : and it is le●… as a standard and pattern , ●…ow the great ordinance of counsel is to be used and managed for the well-being of churches , to the worlds end . ii. the constitution of both these buildings or societies , are eminent and observable in the gospel . the first of these , viz. a church of believers , is first instituted by christ himself , and afterward put in practice by the apostles ; matth. 16. 18. thou art peter , and upon this rock i will build my church the rock confessed is christ : christ confessëd , is the foundation of the visible church ⸫ peter confessing , is an hewn stone , squared to the foundation * ; a believer made ecclesiastically visible , sitted for church-building and fellowship . a company of such confessors , or a company of these confessing believers , 1. have power to joyn together into a gospel church-state , as they did acts 1. 13 , 14. continued with one accord : so acts 2. 46. 2. they have power to call officers , by whom they become an organick body , and sitted to administer and enjoy all instituted worship : acts 1. 15 , 23. peter stood up in the midst of the disciples ; and they appointed two . acts 6. 3. brethren , look you out men . acts 14. 23. by bolding up bands made elders . 3. by the ministry of these officers , the church doth actually enjoy such ordinances as are instituted by christ , for their edisication ; both directive , in word , sacraments , prayer , singing of psalms , and collections : acts 2. 42. they continu●…ct stedfastly in the apostles doctrine , and sellowship , and in breaking of bread , and in prayers . col. 3. 16. teaching one another in psalms and hymns ▪ &c. ; ●…1 cor. 16. 1 , 2. every first day lay by it self , &c. for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is the neuter gender , as well as masculine , and is so to be read , because they had two distinct collections ●…t that time ▪ the collection for ierusalem was by it self , a publick , not a private collection . corrective : 1 cor. ●…5 . 425. when gathered together , deliver to sa●… . iii ▪ the administration of , and participation in all these ordi●…ances , ( while we are in this flesh , and state militant ) are in full of variety of difficulties and temptations , especially where churches are numerous , that the work cannot long be carried on ( a while it sometimes may , viz. while the churches are under the eye of an adversary , and when there be elders eminent in piety , humility and ability ) without stated help . the help which the lord hath instituted , is counsel . when antiech had trouble in some points of doctrine , the remedy which the holy ghost applied , was counsel ▪ given them by a formall council , acts 15. when corinth wanted help in a point of discipline , the apostle doth help , by ministring counsel unto them , 1 cor. 5. 3 , 4 , 5. and he counselleth the church to excommunicate the man , the sinner . excommunication is a sharp rod , made up of seven most severe and terrible twigs ; or a strong purgation , compounded of seven violent ingredients ; viz. 1. he is cut off from visible communion with christ in the church . 2. he is cut off from familiar communion with the saints in worship . 3. he is cast out of the usual walk of the spirit . 4. he is cast out of the house of god , as unsavoury salt , or a loathsome thing that doth offend . 5. he is thrust out of the paradise of god , from eating the tree of life , viz. christ in the sacrament of the supper , where the spirit sitteth as in his sealing-office . 6. he is cut off from familiar civil communion with the saints ; he may not be invited to eat with them . 7. he is delivered to satan , and that by the sentence of christ , through the hand of his spouse the church and all this to be inflicted upon a brother . ah! who trembles not to minister such a pill , to lay on such a rod ? and therefore it had need to be managed and administred with all care , fear , and clearness . and all this sheweth , and much more might be produced to shew , what need there is of counsel ; which , after thirty or forty years experience in the way of congregational churches , in fulness of liberty , we finde more and more need to insist upon , and that in such a fixed and ordered way , as that thereby men may be tyed to attend unto counsel . iv. a council is constituted acts. 15. where the wisdome of the holy ghost hath given us a pattern of the least , and of the greatest councils , as our n. e. divines have well observed . there cannot be a less council then that was , for there were but two churches mentioned ; and there cannot be a greater , and more compleat one , because there were the greatest counsellors , a most compleat pattern , even the apostles of jesus christ ; teaching , that if there be but two churches , they may enjoy the ordinance of mutuall counsel , though more incompleatly . but if there he many churches , then they are to be ordered according to the pattern of comblning churches into compleat councils . of which in the next chapter . v. christ , who hath all power , mat. 28. 20. hath derived all ecclesiastical power first unto the apostles , that they by institution mi●…ht distribute the same unto several offices in the church . hence ▪ as all church-officers , especially elders , and more especially teaching elders , are ordinary successors of the apostles , in their several branches of church power : so councils of churches are their eminent ordinary successors , in point of counsel , and that in several respects . first , because in councils there is most light , and nearest to infallibility : and the more compleat , the better ; though the most compleat council may erre , because they have not a promise of infallible assistance . secondly , because when the apostles themselves had constituted churches , they did guide and counsel them how to use their power ; as paul did the church of corinth , 1 cor. ●… , 4. the apostle did not act the censure himself : and so is that of paul to be interpreted , 1 tim. 1. 20. i have delivered to satan ; viz. as i did the incestuous corinthian , by giving such counsel to the church , whereof they were members . in thus doing , councils succeed the apostles . vi. inasmuch as councils are publick assemblies , and that not onely ecclesiastically publick , but civilly also , when they are held with openness and boldness . hence , civill authority hath influence , by law and command , to give allowance unto such assemblies ; and so they have an extrinsecall efficiency in calling councils : but the intrinsecall and proper efficients of a council , are the churches , who elect and send messengers to that end . vii . the members constituent of a council , are church-messengers . the persons sent ought to be elders , of both orders , teaching and ruling ▪ to represent the whole church ; or in defect of ruling elders to represent the people , faithful brethren ▪ eminent in holiness and wisdome , who are as elders : acts 15. 2. certain other of them ver. 22. chosen men , chief men among , the brethren . ver. 32. being prophets also themselves . and the reason hereof is , because , as the temptation of learned men , is to affect a prolacy over the people : so the temptation of the fraternity , is to affect a morellian democracy . and therefore the wisdome of god hath by institution ballanced all ecclesiastical councils with members of both sorts , that may ballance each other , by number at least , though not in weight , yet enough to prevent any prevalency of a temptation , either to subjugate the churches under any prelatical usurpation of the learned ; or to elevate and intoxicate the fraternity , to affect any inordinate power : which rather , and more effectually te●…ds to enervate and evacuate government , then to preserve any lawful and just liberty of the brotherhood . the end of the churches sending these messengers , is to manage the ordinance of counsel in due order . viii . the organick parts of a council , whereby they are enabled to manage their affairs in prudence and order , are moderators , ●…nd notaries : the choice of whom is the first act they do , to compleat themselves to be fit for action . it may sometimes edifie , to change moderators every new session , part●…ly to train up each other unto that special work of christ , in the management of the affairs , and in caring for the publick welfare of all the churches ; and also to take trial of mens gifts , spirit and abilities unto that high service ; that so , when there may be special need , they may know who is most fit to manage the council at such ●… time , for the glory of god , and for the most effectual edification , and publick well being of the churches . though moderators may be often changed , it is not fit : that the notaries should be so often changed . ix . the power of ecclesiastical councils is onely dogmatical , or doctrinal : power of censure is by the lord fixed in the church ; and hence , when any appeal unto a council , it is for further and more clear light from the scripture , and for conviction thereby , but not for the exercise of any juridical power . chap. ii. of the gospel-measuring-reed by the number twelve . i. seeing particular congregations in gospel-order , are churches ; and these churches , for their well-being , need to hold and exercise communion by councils : and one church ( as antioch ) may need the greatest and highest counsel . hence in such places where , through the riches of the grace of christ , churches are numerous , it will be necessary , that the management of these councils should be in order , according to the pattern of compleat councils , acts 15. for multitude unordered , by ●…ow much the greater they are , the greater is their cumber , and unaptness to operate in order unto their end . lesser bodies are more readily ordered , and have a greater aptitude to be active in their order unto their end . ordo anima rerum . ii. order is one of the beauties of heaven , and so it is of the churches . let all things be done in order , 1 cor ▪ 14. 40. ierusalem is a city compacted , psal. 122. 3. and the more orderly bodies are , the better are they compacted . bodies that are compacted , are so ordered by number and measure : the new ierusalem is the most glorious city that ever shall be on earth ; and we see that it shall be compacted by number and measure , rev. 21. 12 , to 18. and the foundation number is twelve , as appeareth ver . 14. the wall of the city had twelve foundations . and this number twelve is multiplied by twelve , as appeareth ver . 16 , 17. it is square , twelve every way , which amounteth to one hundred forty and four . iii. the twelve tribes in the old testament , and the twelve apostles in the new , do make that number famous in the churches , and fundamental in ordering and compacting of churches into ecclesiasticall combinations of councils . the twelve tribes compacted in order , was the most beautiful , and heart-ravishing camp , that ever the worlds eye did look upon , numb . 24. 2 , 5 , 6. the twelve loaves of shew-bread , did represent the whole visible church before god in the temple . the twelve precious sta●…s in the breast-plate of the high priest , shew , that i●… such a number christ is pleased to order and represent the whole militant church before his father in heaven . and according to this type , rev. 7. 4. the whole visible church is ordered , multiplied , and ●…ealed in this number . and rev. 21. 12 , 14. the twelve tribes are the twelve gates , and the twelve apostles are the twelve foundations of the new ierusalem . ●…hat glorious visible gospel-church , ezek●…8 ●…8 . which is called iehovah-shamniah , is ordered by the number twelve , according to the twelve tribes of israel , as the typicall and of canaan was . iv. in the perfect pattern ( f●…r the word is a perfect rule ) which the holy ghost ▪ hath left us , acts 15. as there is a ground ▪ work for the least of councils , in the two churches ; so of compleat councils , in the twelve apostles . for , though herod had killed iames with the sword , acts●… ●… . ●… . his martyrdome did not remove him out of the foundation , but rather six him in it : and the apostles were most of them killed for the testimony of iesus , before iohn had his revelation , and yet we finde them all written in the foundation of the new ierusalem . and therefore what should hinder , but that in the ordering of compleat councils , we should lay our foundation in the number twelve ? and all the orders of councils should be raised and compacted by that number , even from the bottom to the top . v. and unto this order and number we may the ●…ather be induced , because here will be the twenty four elder●… , who do wait upon , and worship the holy majesty of god in all the churches upon earth , as he hath pleased to reveal himself , rev. 4. where the presence of god among the churches is reve●…led : first , with his glorious angels next him , represented by the four living creatures , according to ezek. 1. & 10. and secondly , with the communion of churches about him , represented by the twenty four elders , who do represent all the churches on earth , in communion : as will anon appear . vi. for when twelve churches are combined to hold communion together , the least number that one church must ( by institution ) send forth to that first council , must be one teaching elder , and one ruling elder ; and then , this society of churches is represented by twenty four elders strictly . and when twelve of these first councils shall , with consent of the particular churches , elect and send forth ▪ one teaching , and one ruling elder , the ablest and fittest among them , to constitute a provincial council ; that council will be strictly the twenty four elders , representing all the churches in that province , concurring in the election . and when twelve provincial councils shall , with like consent , send forth from each of them one teaching , and one ruling elder , the most holy and able among them , to constitute a national council , they will still be strictly the twenty four elders , representing the whole nation , in their ecclesiastical state , before the lord. and when twelve national councils shall send forth , in like manner , from each of them , one teaching , and one ruling elder , the most holy and fit among them , to constitute a●… oecumenic●…l council ( or by what other less term it may be thought meet to call it ) they will still be strictly the twenty four elders , representing before the lord all the churches in all those nations , concurring in the election . and why may not this ascent , and representation of all before the lord , be part of the meaning of that text , rev. 5. 8 , 9 , 11 , 12 , 14 ? vii . and this point is the more to be ●…eeded , because gods visible respect unto , and acceptation of any people , is according to the good aspect and condition of their representatives ▪ there may be much ▪ drose in a parish , a province , a nation , and in the world ; yet if they have good representatives before the lord , and if they carry the lords matters well , in his sight , that doth obtain , through christ , a favourable acceptation of , and dispensation towards all that are so represented . and he hath instituted representatives of the church on earth : aaron represented all israel on his breast before the lord , exod. 28. 29. and a council consisting of messengers of churches , the glory of christ , do represent the churches who send and constitute that council , acts 15. oh! how happy were it for any people , to be in such visible instituted order on earth , as that they may be ( through christ ) acceptably represented before the lord ! for god is so well pleased to see his people in order , as that he will dwell in that place , and call it by his own name . iehovah-shamniah ; especially when they are civilly , as well as ecclesiastically in good order represented before him. viii . furthermore , this is to be considered , that though the twenty four elders are so called , by the least number that they can be , by this constitution ; yet , according as the riches of gods grace is more abundantly poured out , they may be more in number , though under this constituting denomination . for , one church may send forth ●…ing elders , as antioch sent forth paul and barnabas , and ruling elders , or brethren proportionably . so likewise upon the same ground , when there be more eminent lights in any of the councils ( as through grace it is like often to be ) they may send more then one to the provincial , or national , or oecumenical councils ▪ but still they are the twenty four elders , because that is the foundation number . ix . what if i should illustrate this point by that of the apostles ? who are often in scripture called the twelve apostles , and yet there were more apostles then twelve : for who doubteth but that paul , who was none of the twelve yet he was an apostle , and a chief apostle , a great foundation ; and barnabas was an apostle also , acts 14 ▪ 14. and 1 cor. ●… . 9. but twelve is the foundation number , and therefore they are so denominated . x. again , though twelve churches be the lowest number of the first combination , yet they may be more then twelve , when the pourings out of gods grace shall be inlarged ; yea , they may be any number under twenty four churches . if then twenty three churches should be in a combination , their messengers sent to the first council will be a great number ; but still they are the twenty four elders before the lord , by their fundamental constitution . so a like number of provincial councils , and a like number of national councils , though their messengers are many , yet they are still the twenty four elders , growing up , through grace , and increasing unto more orders of councils , for the greater glory of christ. and when ( through grace ) there shall be twenty four churches , or first councils , or provincial , or national councils ▪ then they must be compacted into two orders of those councils , because twelve is the foundation number , by which they are multiplied , and compacted . and when this is done , they are reduced to be twenty four elders strictly ; the foundation number . as in the order of that civill government set up by moses ; the orders of ten , and of fifty , &c. are denominated b●… the least and constituting number : though those orders may consist ( when they are full of people and blessing ) of many more , even any number under twenty and an hundred , &c. but when ten are become twenty , and when fifty are become an hundred , then they must be multiplied into more orders , because these numbers are foundation numbers , by which the orders of the government are multiplied and compacted ; and when that is transacted , they are reduced unto their foundation numbers . so it is here in the ecclesiastical orders of government , the least number of a compleat stated first council , is twelve churches , whose least number of messengers are twenty four ; and by these numbers they are denominated , though they may be more churches in a combination , and more messengers from some of the churches : and so it is in all the other orders of councils . for a little further illustration of this point , i shall propose and answer six questions , which may let in a little further light into this frame , and remove some objections . quest. 1. may a church perform any ecclesiastical acts by messengers , or representatives in their name ? answ. yea. doubtless they may ; they may consult , and agree to give counsel , in such cases as may be presented for that end , touching either faith or order , as it appeareth acts 15. quest 2. may a church elect by messengers or representatives , when themselves cannot be present where such election is performed ? answ. a●… act of election may be transacted by some of a society ; yea by a few in behalf of the rest , when they have their consent , and a calling so to act . for instance , if a lesser number of a church be necessarily absent from an act of election performed in a lawful assembly , they are all involved in the act of the major part : this is without controversie fo●… here some onely elect , and all are engaged . again , if the major part be necessarily absent , and fond a lesser part , or a ●…ew , with their express consent to do an act o●… election , it hath the like force and validity . the royal ar●… which chose david to be their king , ●… chron. 12. were farre the lesser part of the people , but they were 〈◊〉 , and elected for them , and did perform it as affectually as if the whole people had been present ; and david was king , not onely over the representatives , who did actually chuse him , but over all the people , who did elect him by their representatives . if the parties s●…nt to transact an election , do act according to their heart who sent them , they will not object , for had they been there present , they would have done the same : but if the parties sent to elect , do not elect according to their heart , they may justly question their act , and consider of their apologie ; but that doth not nullifie the act in point of order . when political bodies , whether civil or ecclesiastical , are multitudinous , and remote from the place of action , either all cannot act , or if they do , it must be by representatives . quest. 3. may a church elect elders or messengers out of another church , unto a publick and common service of christ and of the churches ? answ. yea , they may : for the great collection of the gentile churches , which paul carried up to ierusalem at his last going thither , was an act of many churches : and paul , with those that went with him to present it , were chosen by the churches unto that service , 2 cor. 8. 19. and there were many more churches contributors , then there were messengers sent to carry it . acts 20. 4. there were but seven or eight in pauls company , but all the churches of galatia , corinth , asia , and macedonia , were contributors . therefore many churches chose messengers who were none of their own particular churches , unto that publick and common service of christ , and of the churches . again , the ready subjection of all the churches about antioch , and other places , acts 16. 4. unto the decrees of the council at ierusalem , doth probably speak , that , as the trouble by those questions , was a common case in all the churches ; so they had some fore-knowledge , concurrence , and consent ( after consent sure enough they h●…d ) in the mission of paul and barnabas ( teaching elders of antioch , acts 13. 2. ) unto ierusalem , to the apostles and elders about that matter . again , seeing the rule of communion of churches doth impose upon elders a degree of care of all the churches , especially of those within their ordered communion ; it doth also give unto all the churches , a mutual interest in each others elders , hence , when they chuse any of the elders within the compass of their order , they chuse those , who , in some respect , are their own , in whom they have an ecclesiastical interest , especially unto this publick service of counsel . quest. 4. may many churches elect a ●…ew of their elders unto some publick and common service ▪ wherein all the churches so electing are interessed ? answ. yea , they may : for all the churches of asia , galatia , macedonia , &c. did elect a few to accompany paul in carrying their contributions unto ierusalem : and it is expresly said , that from the churches of asia there were but two sent ▪ acts 20. 4. and we know there were at least seven churches in asia , rev. 1 ●…4 . quest. 5. when two , or a few elders are chosen by many churches unto some publick and common service of the churches , do they represent all the churches who did elect them unto that service ? answ. yea , they do so : for when many churches ( by paul's ordering ) sent a few messengers to corinth , 2 cor. 8. 23. to fetch their contribution , to be carried ( among the contribution of many other churches ) unto ierusalem , by the hands of paul , and a few others , chosen by the churches unto that service , ●… cor. 8. 19. these few messengers did represent all the churches who sent them : so as that what the church of corinth should transact afore them , is expresly said to be afore all the churches , viz. who sent them , 2 cor. 8. 24. quest. 6. these orders of councils , first , second , third , representing fewer or more churches , are they a divine institution ? answ. touching the first councils , consisting of immediate messengers of churches sent for that end , it is out of question that these are a divine institution , acts 15. the great difficulty is ▪ touching the second and third orders of councils , and so higher , unto the highest oecumenical council , whose members are chosen immediately by councils , yet with the express consent of every particular church : not immediately by the churches , but by their representatives . touching these , in way of humble proposal i affirm , that they are a divine institution . 1. because their foundation , formation , and constitution , is deducible from the word of god , as appeareth by laying together the foregoing questions , and answers thereunto , with what hath been said before . 2. because this multiplying of order upon order , seemeth to be typified in the ascents and degrees in ezekiels temple ; and by the multiplication of the number twelve in the new ierusalem , rev. 21 , &c. 3. because if there be not this multiplying of council above council ( above , i say , not in any ●…●…cal power , but in order and extent ) then it doth not yet appear that there is any way or expedient , whereby there should be a general and equal communion of all the churches in a nation , wherein every church shall be , by their own act and consent , interessed and concerned . much less can there be a●… equal communion of churches , of several nations . for , if several nations should need and desire to hold communion of councils , who shall chuse the persons or instruments , by whom this communion shall be held and acted ? if princes chuse them , it is not a regular ecclesiastical council . if churches chuse ▪ and send them ▪ shall some churches onely chuse them , or all the churches ? ●…f some onely ; who ? and why they , and not others ▪ and how can their act interest and oblige all ? if all the churches must chuse , then immediately , or ●… delegates : immediately , it is unfeizible , especially to act in knowledge and prudence ; but mediately by their confidents and representatives they may . the same may be said of the communion of all the churches in a nation or province , where elections must ●…e performed by representatives . in which way , a general and equal election is attainable ; and without it , it doth not yet appear that it is attainable . now that several nations ought to hold communion , and also all the churches in a nation , it doth appear in these scriptures : isa. 19. 23 , 24 , 25. zeph. 3. 9. 1 cor. 11. 1●… . & 14. 32 , 36. of which see more in synod at boston . this being commanded by god , and as yet no way or expedient appearing , whereby it may be duely acted , we are at a great loss . therefore the lord opening this way , which is so attainable ▪ and not without scripture light , what i●… the churches should set upon the tryall of it , and see how the lord may appear unto his servants therein ? as for the episcopal way of government , alas ! that is most remote from this ordinance of communion of churches . chap. iii. of the constitution of four orders of councils . i. when twelve churches , or any other number under twenty ●…our ▪ shall agree to hold communion in a council for mutual help , and shall send forth messengers at least two from every church , and they of both orders of elders , or in defect of ruling elders , brethren eminent in piety and wisdome , who are as elders , to manage the ordinance of counsel in the behalf , and for the benefit of all the churches herein combined . these do constitute the first order of a compleat council ; the first ascent of the glorious temple ; the first row in compacting the new ierusalem . these are the twenty four elders before the lord , representing all the congregations which sent them . it is both needful and attainable , that these councils should meet once every moneth . ii. when twelve of the first order of councils , or any other number under twenty four , shall , with the express consent of all their particular churches , agree to hold communion in a council for mutual help , and for the benefit of all the churches combined ; and to that end , shall send forth from among themselves , at least one principal and eminent teaching elder , and one ruling elder , to manage the ordinance of counsel , in a provincial synod , in the behalf , and for the benefit of all the churches herein combined : these do constitute the second order of councils . these are a provincial council ; these do represent very many churches , and all the people in them , with their express consent , and yet they are but twenty four elders , so denominated by their least and constituting number , though the numbers represented be very great ▪ according to rev. 5. 8 , 9 , &c. these all are church-messengers , sent forth to manage the ordinance of counsel , though immediately sent forth by the first councils , with the express consent of all the churches combined . these are the second row of churches compacted by the number twelve ; the second row of 〈◊〉 in the temple , of equal dimensions to the ▪ first , and built upon the first , standing upon the same bottom and foundation , the twelve apostles . it is both needfull and attainable ▪ that these should meet quarterly ▪ iii. when twelve provincial councils , or any other number under twenty four , shall , with the explicite consent of the first councils , and with the explicite consent of the churches , who are in this combination ▪ agree to hold communion in a council for mutual help ; and to that end , shall send forth from among themselves at least one principal teaching elder , and one ruling elder , both eminent in holiness , wisdome , and all fitting abilities , to manage the ordinance of counsel in a national synod , in the behalf , and for the benefit of all the provinces , first councils , and particular churches herein combined : these do constitute a third order of councils . these are a national council ; these do represent a whole nation of churches , and all the people of the land ; and yet they are but twenty four elders , as rev. 5 ▪ 1●… , 13 , 14. though all creatures concurre , and are combined in the work ; all are represented before the lord in twenty four elders . these are all of them church-messengers , sent forth to manage the ordinance of counsel ; but they are immediately sent forth by the provi●…iall councils . iv. as the first councils consist of the most choyce persons in all the churches ; so the provincial councils do consist of the most choyce instruments in the respective provinces ; and the national council doth consist of the most choyce persons in all the nation : who pass through so many ecclesiastical elections , before they arrive unto this high and ●…oly service . they pass under an opportunity of being called out from among all the choyce iewels of the nation , who are in ●…n ecclesiastical order and capacity . it will be both needful and attainable , that these should meet once in a year . v. when twelve national councils , or any number under twenty four , shall agree , with the explicite consent of all the churches , passing and arising through all the orders of councils , to hold communion in councils for mutual help ; and to that end shall send forth , at least one teaching , and one ruling elder , men eminent in holiness and abilities for so high a service , to constitute an oecumenical council ▪ and there to manage the ordinance of counsel ▪ in the behalf , and for the benefit of all the churches and councils herein combined : these do constitute a fourth order of councils . they are an oecumenical council , and represent all the churches in those nations before the lord vi. twenty three nations met in one council , will be a great glory to christ , and by what hath yet been in the world ▪ may be called oecumenical . yet when the kingdomes of this world , shall become the kingdomes of our lord , and of his christ , i know not but there will be councils above this . nay ; why may there ▪ not be twelve ascents in combining all the world ? rev. 21. 16 , 17. but i leave it to the lord. at present this is the top , and uppermost order of councils ▪ and somewhat higher then we can yet well descry : but faith in the promise can see all the world in the gospel order of iesus christ. and now the lord jesus is triumphing in his militant glory upon earth , with his twenty four elders about him , in ecclesiastical visible order . and now the whole militant body , fitly joyned together , and compacted by that which every joynt supplieth , according to the effectual working of the measure of every part from christ , maketh increase of the body , unto the edifying of it self in love , ephes. 4. 16. vii . furthermore consider , that though i have proposed but three orders of councils within the nation ; yet in populous nations there may be a 〈◊〉 of provinces , into chief provinces and sub-provinces . if a nation be divided into ( at least ) twelve ecclesiastical provinces , and every one of these divided into ( at least ) twelve sub-provinces , and every one of these into ( at least ) twelve precincts of first councils ; then they will have four orders of councils within the nation . and three such ascents will combine all the world into the holy breastplate of our great high-priest the lord jesus , in an oecumenical council ; or three ascents in one nation , and four such ascents in the combination of all the world , doth in li●…e manner make up the holy breastplate of christ : which council may meet in ierusalem , if the lord will ; and if that be so literal a meaning of sundry texts that way looking . and when that council shall agree of universal dayes of fasting or feasting before the lord , upon iust occasion ; oh! what glorious dayes will those be , when all the world shall appear together before the lord in such acts of worship ! viii . and as an eminent preparatory to these glorious dayes ( when christ shall be king over all the earth , when there shall be one lord , and his name one , zech. 14. 9. and when the lord shal accomplish that prophesie e●…e . 34. 23 , 24. and i will set up one shepherd over them , and he shall feed them even my servant david , he shall feed them , and he shall be their shepherd ; and i the lord will be their god , and my servant david a prince among them : 〈◊〉 lord have 〈◊〉 it . when christ shall rule all the world , both in civil and ecclesiastical affairs , by the word of his mouth ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by the hand of saints , even holy and religious kings , princes , and chief rulers ) oh that the lord would p●… it into the heart of some of his religious and learned servants , to take such pains about the holy hebrew language , as to fit it for this universal glorious use ! considering , that above all languages spoken by the lip of man ( by reaso●…●…f i●… trigra●…macall foundation , and other regular cons●…erations , for the multiplications of all sorts of words ) it is most capable to be enlarged , and fitted to express all things and action●… , all motions and notions that our human●… intellect is capable of ( to speak no higher of i●… ) . in this ●…ortall life . considering also , that it is the invention of god himself , and it is the purest language on earth , not as yet defiled with the scurrilo●… froth and some of carnal wits in writings . considering also , what is promised to be in th●…se dayes , that way looking , zeph. ●… . ●… . i will turn to the people a pure language : and when egypt is converted , it is expressed by this , that they shall speak the language of cana●… ▪ isa. 19. 18 ▪ when all the world do obeisance to christ disjunction , then all languages shall see my glory . isa. 66. 18. but when they do it conjunctim , in what language better then in it , in which god first spake unto man ? how shall all flesh see the glory of the lord together , isa. ●…0 . 5. unless there be an universal language ? and what one fitter then that , which it pleased our lord jesus to make use of , when he spake from heaven unto paul●…o ●…o his first conver●…ion , acts●…6 ●…6 . 13 ▪ ●… . i saw a light from heaven ; and heard a voice speaking unto me , and saying in the hebrew tongue , saul , saul , &c. chap. iv. the order of electing all th●…se councils ; with consideration of the time of their duration , and of the times and place of meeting . i. the election of the first council is severally performed in euery particular church combined in 〈◊〉 society ; wherein there seldome is any variety of choice , and therefore no difficulty in the action : so that it may be performed either by lifting up of hands , or by a silent vote , when their silence is the sign of their concurrence . i●… there be two teaching elders , the church may send them ●…oth , if they see good , as antioch sent paul and 〈◊〉 , who were two teaching elders of that church , acts ▪ 13. ●… . and according to the number of teaching elders , whom they send , the like number of ruling elders , or 〈◊〉 brethren ▪ they are to send , and astociate with them . ii. this act of the churches election must be diligently , religiou●…y and sol●…nly attended and performed , a●… being 〈◊〉 and esse●…tially requisite , both for the constitution of all councils , and for the obligation of all churches unto obedience ▪ this act of the church hath reference ▪ not onely to the constitution of the first council , but also of all the rest . for 〈◊〉 ▪ churches are the efficient causes of council●… ▪ none are to be chosen 〈◊〉 a prouincial , national , or oecumenical synod , but such as were first chosen by some particular 〈◊〉 to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a first 〈◊〉 ▪ and ●…o 〈◊〉 on the 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to order . hence 〈◊〉 it must be carefully and expressedly put into th●… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the churches election . that 〈◊〉 are chosen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 on the ordinance of 〈◊〉 in all the orders of it , both in provincial , national , and oecu●…e ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 even unto th●… highest point : for though all that are th●…s elected and sent by the churches ; are not to be elected and sent to provincial , national , and oecumenical councils , yet some of them are to be sent , and all of them are to elect and send . and therefore when the church doth elect and send them to this first council , they are , by this act of the church , impowered to carry on the ordinance of counsel , through all the orders thereof , ev●…n to the top branch , either by electing others , or being ●…ected themselves , unto those services of christ , and of the ●…ches . iii. the time of this election , is to be upon the sabbath immediately preceding the stated time of the first councils ▪ monethly meeting : and then are they to be sent forth with the prayers and blessing of the church . iv. the provincial council doth consist of the choycest instruments in all the first councils , by whom they are chosen and sent with their prayers and blessing : every first council electing the most holy , learned , and able elders , both teaching and ruling , tha●… they have , who are most fit to promote and attain the end●… they are sent for , viz. so carry on the ordinance of counsel in a provincial synod , both by themselves , and by chusing such as may further promote the same in a national council , &c. v. the time of this election , is to be in that session of the first councils , which doth immediately precede the stated quarterly time of the provincial councils meeting . vi. the order and manner of this election may be this : the moderator of that session may first put this to vote , whether they will send bu●… one ▪ or more then one teaching elders ▪ for by the good providence and rich grace of christ ▪ there may be s●…ndry able and eminent lights in one first council , and such , as that it were a publick injury and detriment to the cause of christ , if they be not sent . this provided , that according to the number of teaching elders , a like number of ruling elders be also sent with them . the manner of election may be by papers , if they see meet ; which the moderator and notary are to take , and number , and manifest who are chosen : and such as are chosen , are by the notary to be recorded . vii . the national council doth consist of the most choice , ●…oly , able , and eminent lights in all the provincial councils , by whom they are chosen , and sent forth with their prayers and blessing . every provincial council chusing the most holy and able elders , both teaching and ruling , that they have among them , to constitute a national council , and to carry on the ordinance of counsel , in that high and holy service of christ , and of all the churches in the nation ; ye●… and among other nations if need be , and when there is a calling thereunto . viii . the time of this election , is to be in that session of the provincial councils , which doth immediately precede the stated time of the annual session of the national council . the order and manner of their election , may be in all respects according to the forementioned election in the provincial synod . ix . an oecumenical council , is to consist of the most holy and eminent lights in all the national councils , combined in this holy ordinance of mutual counsel ; and may readily be ordered by this standard , when the lord shall in the riches of his grace , give opportunity to exercise the same . touching the duration of these councils . x. every one of these councils doth continue in being , until , according to order , a new election be made ; the new election doth antiquate the old . hence , as the primitive church had apostles alwayes in being , for their help ; so there be at least three orders of ecclesiastical councils , ever in being in every populous christian nation , who must at the stated times , and may at any ●…it time meet , when the affairs of christ , and of any of the churches do need , and duely call for the same . and when christian nations shall be thus combined , there will be an oecumenical council ever in being : yea , and when all the world shall be combined , there will be a great oecumenical council ever in being ▪ to order all ecclesiastical affaires , in unity , holiness and peace , all the world over . xi . a principal objection ariseth against this fixing and stating of councils ; viz. that although pro-renascent councils are a divine ▪ remedy , when troubles arise , as it was at antioch , who also then finished the council , when the present work was finished : but of fixed , stated , and permanent councils we have no example , nor doth there appear any ground i●… scripture to bottom them upon . ans. the primitive churches had a stated and perm●…nent way of counsel eminently , and more then our stated and permanent councils can be , for they had the apostles and evangelists constantly among them . and though they had fixed elders in every church , yet they did need the visitations , and frequently made use of the counsel of the apostles and evangelists , who were the permanent councils of the primitive churches . and though it hath pleased the wisdome of our great lawgiver , to give us but one example of an ordinary council , and that he hath done , to be our perpetual guide in our ordinary way ; yet there be many examples of the churches need of , and frequent use of the apostles and evangelists counsel , whom they had alwayes with them , or knew when and where to repair unto them for their help . and we finde by much and long experience , that our reforming churches do stand in as much ( if not more ) need of constant and stated councils , as the primitive churches did ▪ of the constant presence of the apostles and evangelists , alwayes for their directive , and often for their corrective ●…elp . we finde by experience , that our churches do oftener need the directive help of councils , then the corrective , and in both respects together we need them to be always in being . many good works for the promotion of the gospel and kingdom of jesus christ do stick long in the birth , and languish : yea , oft miscarry and vanish for want of the help of councils . sundry churches also , and remote places , ly long in the dark , without food and help , for want of the orderly care of setled councils ; every bodies work is no-bodies . but when all churches are in order , all know where their work lyeth . disorders likewise , and insuperable distempers , by long ●…retting and burning in the bosom of sundry churches , to the great dishonour of god , and scandal to the saints , for want of stated councils : some or other refusing ( in the time of their temptations ) to submit themselves unto the remedy , especially having that advantage , that without their consent , a pro-renascent council may not be called ; or if called by some onely , they have the less opportunity of doing good , and are in the more danger of doing hurt . nor can it be said that there is no example nor ground of stated and permanent councils in the holy scriptures , seeing the apostles and evangelists were so , and more , unto the primitive churches . hence also it was enough to give us one p●…tern of an ordinary council , there was no need for the continuation thereof , whilst the apostles and evangelists did survive . object . but doth not this strengthen the argument for bishops , and such like superintendents over the churches ? for so they a gue . ans. were there a like example in an ordinary way , set down in scripture , for this work to be done by any one man not extraordinarily called , as there is for a council , then their argument would have force with it ; but such ●… pattern , or precept for it , is not to be found . and the way of councils , ( which is clearly instituted ) is sufficient to attain the end , as we have found by pracious and pienteous experience : though we are still defective , in that we have not our councils stated , and we do finde great inconvenience by reason of that defect . xii . these councils , in the time of their duration , may multiply or cut short their sessions , as need may require , according as the business of the churches , and affairs of christ may be more or less pressing and urgent . xiii . there be two sorts of their meetings , sta●…ed ▪ occasional . the stated meetings of the first councils are every moneth ▪ and what if it should be on the ●…irst third day of the week , in every month , through the year ? the stated meeting of the provincial councils , are once every quarter : and what if two of them be the first third day after the sun touches the middle point of the summer and winter solstices ? and the other two , the first third day after the sun is in the vernal and autumnal equin●…ial ▪ with this consideration , that if the sun touch any of these points upon the third day of the week , then that is the day of meeting ; if on any other day , then the third day after . the stated meeting of the national council , is once a year , and best in the spring : and what if it be the last third day of the first moneth called march ? xiv . the law of the constitution doth call all these councils to meet at the stated times , without any other order or appointment . xv. it is very requisite that some eminent man preach a publick lecture , on the day of the meeting of every council , ●…o draw many saints together , and to raise a strong breath of prayer , and to put the greater solemnity upon so holy a work . xvi . occasional meetings may be multiplied either by intricacy of cases , variety of opinions , troublesomeness of persons , danger of churches , gross scandals that cannot proceed to censure , because of some obstruction , without the help of counsel . such occasional meetings ▪ if foreseen , may be appointed by the council before they rise ; if not foreseen , then they must be called by the moderator then in being , and the notary , by letters under either of their hands , where distance of place requireth it . xvii . the place of meeting for these councils , and especially of the first councils is not to be limited , or tyed to any one place , because there be sundry considerations about the place , whereof one may be prevalent at one time , and another time another : sometimes the age , and unfitness for travel of some eminently useful person ; sometimes the common conveniency for all : sometimes it may edifie to meet in that church where the chief trouble may at the present be , ard yet this not alwayes so , because the troubles of antioch were heard and setled at ierusalem , where the best and ablest counsel was to be had , with the least trouble and inconveniency unto any . chap. v. the generall work of all ecclesiasticall councils . these ecclesiastical councils are to do for all the churches in an ordinary way , what the apostles were to do in an extraordinary way . the care of all the churches doth lye upon them , which appeareth both in the manner of their constitution , and end of their meeting . yea , they are to do for all the world what lyeth in them , as the apostles were to do , matth 28. go , and teach all nations , &c. i. hence , first , if there be any heathen people that yet know not christ , it is a work well-becoming any of these orders of councils , and all of them in their harmony , to seek out , and send forth sit labourers to such a work and service of christ , to carry the gospel , and preach jesus christ unto them ; to gather and plant churches amongst them . and it is the duty of particular churches , unto whose society such instruments , chosen by the councils , do belong , by fasting and prayer , and imposition of hands , to send them forth unto that work ; as the church of antioch did unto barn●…bas and saul , when they were extraordinarily called , and sent forth unto such a work as we are now speaking of , acts 13. 2 , 3. and this will be one holy way of improvement of church-treasuries raised by voluntary contributions , to spread and propagate the gospel to all the world. ii. if there be any among the professing nations that sie in darkness , and in the region of the shadow of death , and see no light , ( and too many such dark corners there be , in the land of zebulon and naphthali , mat. 4 ▪ 15 , 16. ) who have none to bring the glad tidings of light and life unto them , at least , none that do it : it well becometh the vigilance of these councils , to provide and send ●…it instruments unto them , by whose labours , the light ( through grace ) may arise , and shine among them . and it is the duty of the churches to send forth such persons with their prayers and blessing , as abovesaid . iii. if there be any sister-church that hath no breasts , ( which , by death or other means oft falleth out , where churches are numerous ) it is a special and proper care of the ecclesiastical councils , to take a prudent , pious , and speedy course for their supply : it being a matter that hath a great tendency to the well-being not onely of that church , but of the councils also , into whose communion ●…ll elders are received . and unto this point of their care and duty it doth belong , sometimes to remove lights from one candlestick to another , where the gifts and labours of some special instruments may be most fruitful , to the glory of god , and the publick good of religion , and all the churches . but this is to be done with all wisdome , tenderness , and evidence of scripture-light , that it is the will of god , and for his glory so to be ▪ that so the church concerned may yield it as an act of obedience to christ , for whose sake they should be willing to pluck out their right eyes , and give them unto christ , in obedience as unto the apostles , so unto coun●…ils their ordinary successors . iv. as the care of all the churches dyeth on the ecclesiastical councils , so especially the care of those churches which are in combination together , and whose communion they do act , and towards whom their first trust and care is to be exercised , for their well-being on earth , and for the furtherance of their eternal being in the kingdome of heaven , and in all for the glory of christ : and in particular to take care that there be general directions for publick worship , and all other ecclesiastical administrations , and conversation ; and for catec●…ism , and platform both of doctrine and discipline . v. if any errour or heresie arise , or be by any evil instruments openly or secretly buzzed and infused , or any way ●…ented and diffused , to ●…azard the infecting and poisoning any of the people : it is a special care of these councils to take up the matter , to clear up the light of the case by the word of god , and in due order to settle the cause . and suppress the errour , by counselling the church to whom the person belongeth , to a due exercise of discipline , if need be . vi. if any controversie , or doubtful disputation arise in any of the churches , about any point of religion ▪ either in faith or order ; because all difference of opinion is apt to breed aliemtion of affection , and give entrance to satan , and grief to the spirit of love and peace : it concerneth the councils , with all care and prudence , in due order to settle and si●…nce such a controversie . vii . if any strife or division arise among any , either person●… , or parties , or churches , or towns , or magistrates ; because all strife is of satan , and dangerous , and the higher the worse : therefore it ought to be the care of all the councils , speedily to reconcile ( in an ecclesiastical way , as to their spirits and affections ) all such strife ▪ with all care refusing to in●…erpose , o●… meddle with the civil cause , if any be , leaving that to be decided in civil order , according to the ordinance of god. viii . if there arise any difficulty in any of the churches about election of officers , administration of censures , admission of members , education of youth , or in such like cases ; ( and when do all these vigorously proceed without difficulty ? ) it is the duty and care of these councils , by the evidence of the light of the word of god , so to advise and counsel these churches , as that they may proceed to act in due unity , good order , and in the power and peace of the gospel . ix . because the pious and prudent management of the publick stock of prayers and pra●…es , is a point that greatly doth concern the church militant : and because all the great motions in the world are steered and man●…ged by divine providence , according to the prayers of the churches , and of the saints ; hence it is a great service of christ , and of the churches , for all the councils to order and present matter of prayers and thanksgiving , and also to order and guide the times and seasons of publick fastings and thanksgivings . the management of the great wheel of publick prayers ▪ as to the presenting of matter , and ordering of seasons , lyeth within the care and guidance of the councils , by whose pious prudence , all the churches will be led on in an united spirit of prayer , both for matter and seasons ▪ but abandoning the an●…ichristian stinted forms and ti●…es . x. if colonies , or new towns are to be erected in wildernesses , or any unhabited places in the world ; and people appear ready in their mindes to undertake such a design : it is a singular point of wisdom and love , to manage such a design religiously , so as that god may go with them , and dwell in the midst of them . and therefore it is necessary that they have the ministry of gods word , and some other godly persons with them , who ●…ay carry on church-work among them . and this care belongeth to the councils , to order , guide , and provide for them . xi . when parishional congregations are to be called up unto reformation ; and when officers are to be ordained among them , where none were before ; and when , by addition of churches unto the communion , councils are to be multiplied : these ( and such like ) are blessed births , and very well-pleasing to christ ; and o●… how well it becometh these ecclesiastical councils to midwife forth such births as these ? xii . when a whole church or the major part thereof , do remove their dwelling●… , and transplant themselves into some other pl●…ce ; great care is to be had , that christ may go with them that go , and that christ may tarry , and not depart from them that tarry : the care of the holy and ●…oving management of such a design , doth much concern , and well become the holy care of the ecclesiastical councils . chap. vi. concerning the particular works of all the orders of councils : and first of the first order . when a council of the first order is met at the stated time , and in the place agreed on , and have compleated themselves by chusing moderator and notáries , and have commended their work , their churches , and all the government , civil and ecclesiastical , &c. unto god in prayer ; then i. the moderator , with the co-attestation of his associate ruling elder , doth first declare the present state of the church where they do minister , and who have sent them , to act communion of councils with the sister-churches here represented , in this council . the present state of the church he doth declare , in these five points , in answering to these five questions : 1. whether they walk together in truth and love ? truthing it in love , eph. 4. 15. 2. whether peace ruleth in their hearts , and braves it among them ? 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , col. 3. 15. 3. whether they walk in holiness of life , evangelically unblameable ? luk. 1. 6. 4. whether the lambs of the flock be diligently ●…ed , and trained up for christ , in the nurture and admonition of the lord ? joh. 21. 15. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , my little lambs . the care of the lambs , is one third part of the charge over the flock of god. 5. whether the lords-day be reverently , religiously and strictly observed by all ? rev. 1. 10. isai. 58. 13. the affirmative of these questions , ( in gospel measure , and endeavour , though not without infirmities ) declared by him , and co-attested by his associate ruling elder , is to be accepted , with all thankfulness unto god , for the present good estate in christ , of that church ; and the notary is to record the same to the praise of christ jesus . ii. the moderator is to call upon all the elder●… in order , to declare , with the co-attestation of their associate ●…uling elders , the state of all the churches , touching the same five questions . all whose reports are distinctly to be recorded , as the present good estate , in christ , of all those churches , to stand as a monument of gods mercy to future ages : and to be presented upon record unto the provincial and national councils . iii. if all the churches walk in an evangelical measure of truth , peace and holiness , and have no cause that laboureth among them , for want of help●…d ●…d counsel ; then the moderator is to declare to ●…e praise of god , that the work of this present session , as touching their own churches , is finished . iv. but if there be any difference ▪ or strife , or any difficul●… case in any of the churches , there opened by the elders : the matter is first to be put , and resolved into a question or questions , according as the state of the case doth require : and those questions recorded , as matter for the council to give advice in , unto that church from whence they came . also it must be provided , that the party , or parties concerned in the case , or cases , be present , both at the ●…ating of the questions , and discussion thereof , and at the application thereof unto the particular case ; and that he or they have competent liberty to discuss , argue , answer , or wha●… ever is requisite , to finde out and clear up the truth . the answer to the questions , and the application thereof ( so far as may stand with due reverence to the church and glory of christ ) are to be recorded . v. if there be any case which the elders see cause not to produce themselves , or do refuse , th●… any broth●…r concerned may , yea though it reflect upon the elders themselves . or in case of male-administration : or if any already censured appeal for further light and conviction : or if any deserving ce●…sure , do appeal from the church for cle●…er conviction , and the church seeth cause to defer proceeding unto censure , ( as sometimes it may be ) upon his appeal : or whatsoever the case or trouble be ; only all such proposals by any of the ●…ernity , must be with due reverence , humility , and in the fear of god. vi. if any other person or persons whatever , have any question or case , in matters of religion , to propose unto the council , they in the next place may have liberty in a reverent and orderly manner , to propose the same , and it is to be considered and answered . also any other matter concerning the publick good of the churches , and promotion of religion , may be discussed and ordered , as fastings , feastings ●…ropagation of the gospel , and the like . vii . if business so multiply , that one day sufficeth not to fi●…ish the work , the council have liberty to appoint other times , so of●… a●… they need , within the moneth : and if they finish not in that moneth , it must be left on record how the case standeth , and so to be presented to the council that shall be chosen for the next moneth , which ordinarily , in this order , will be the same persons , or ( at least ) most of them . viii . if any case prove too hard for them to resolve , or if they be con●…iderably divided in judgement , then the case is to be transmitted to the next provincial council , and ●…ecorded so to be , with the reasons of transmitting the sa●… . ix . if they agree in counsel about any case or point of religion , in faith or order : and if any person or persons , or church concerned therein , do not accept of their counsel and judgement ; he , or they , have liberty to appeal to the next provincial council ; provided , that if the council advise the church to proceed to ce●…re , they are to follow that counsel , notwithstanding his appeal , and not to 〈◊〉 sin to ly upon their brother ; for if it were in the appeala●… power to stop the clear process of a gospel-medicine to his soul in gross scandals , some would never come under the soul-medicine of christ jesus , or not so soon as were meet : but he may appeal higher , for all actions of the churches and councils , are ●…ble to a review , until it come unto the highest . and his appeal ▪ with the reasons and manner thereof , are to be recorded . x. every first council , in the sessions immediately foregoing the quarterly time of the provincial councils meeting , must chuse from among themselves , at least one teaching elder and one ruling elder , to be sent unto the provincial synod , as members of the same , there to represent the first councils ( who chose and sent them ) and all the churches with them combined : and to carry on the ordinance of counsel among them , according to due order . xi . unto these thus chosen for the provincial council , are to be delivered in writing , first , a note of the present state of all the churches combined with them . secondly , a note of such cases as are transmi●…ed to the provincial council , if any such be . and thirdly , a note of such appeals as are made unto them , if any such be : all these , being first read , are then delivered unto them . and thus they are sent with their prayers and blessing . xii . when all these elders do return to their own churches , they ●…re ( so far as in prudence is meet ) to relate the particular state of all the churches , the acts of the council , the persons chos●…n for the provincial council , the cases transmitted , and appeales ; or so much as may give them a general view of the publick state of the churches and affaires of christ , as matter of continual prayers , praises and obedience in all the churches . the particular works of the provincial council , the second order of councils . the provincial council being met at the stated time , and in the place agreed on , moderators and notaries chosen , the work blessed , as in the council of the first order ; then 1. the moderator , with the co-attestation of his associate ruling el●…er , declareth the present state of the first council that sent them ; as also the present state of all the churches combined in that council , which he delivereth in writing , and may be now read in this council . then he delivereth in writing such cases as are transmitted to them , and such appeales as are made unto them , if any such be ; these being also read in the council , are kept in order by the notaries 2. the notaries are to record the present state of that council , and the general good estate of all the churches , referring unto the records thereof now presented . 3. the moderator is to call upon all the elders , in order , with their associates , delegated from all the first councils , who are all to do as the moderator did , declaring the state of the councils , and of the churches , delivering their writings to the notaries , which are all read , and recorded . 4. the notaries are to produce , when called for , all the papers which present any business or work unto the council , either by transmission , or by appeals : which are orderly to be discussed . care being taken , that all persons concerned be present , and have free and competent liberty to argue , answer , object , dispute , or what else may be requisite for finding out of the truth . 5. if there be no cases transmitted , nor appeals from any first councils , then the business of the lord , touching all their churches , is ( with glory and praise to christ ) so soon finished as mentioned . 6. if any person or persons whatsoever , have any questions or cases concerning religion , & ecclesiastical affairs of christ , now they have liberty , in due reverence and order , to propose the same to be discussed and answered . and if work multiply , the council may either tarry together , or multiply their sessions , so oft as they see cause , in their quarter . and what cases they have unfinished , they are to leave them upon record for the next council . 7. if there be any case too difficult for them , or that they be considerably divided in judgement in , then that case is to transmitted to the national council . the notary is to record it , with the reasons thereof . 8. if any counsel or judgement agreed on by this council , be not accepted or acquiesced in , by the party or parties concerned ▪ he or they may appeal unto the national council , for further light ; and the notaries are to record it , and the reasons thereof . provided , that if this council advise the church to proceed to censure , they may so do , if they see cause , notwithstanding his appeal . 9. those provincial councils which do immediately forego the stated time of the national councils meeting , are each of them to chuse , at least , one teaching , and one ruling elder , according to the manner aforesaid , who are to be representatives of these provincial councils , and of all the first councils , and churches with them combined , in the national council ; who are chosen to carry on the ordinance of counsel in that order . 10. the notaries are publickly in the presence of every council , to deliver in writing unto them who are chosen for the national council , 1. the present state of all the first councils , and of all the churches combined with them . 2. all the causes that are transmitted by them unto the national council . 3. the appeals , if any such be . all these , being first read , are delivered to them : and so they are sent with their prayers and blessing . 11. if these councils foresee any future sessions this quarter , they may now agree upon the same : if any fasts or feasts are to be kept by all their churches , they may now agree upon it , and propose the causes thereof . 12. when these elders do next meet in their first councils , they must prudently and faithfully report the good state of all the rest of the first councils in the province , and of all the churches combined with them , and all other weighty affairs fitting to be communicated , that so they may relate them to their churches , that these things may be mutter of joy , praise thanksgiving , prayer , and obedience in all the churches . the particular works of the national and highest ecclesiastical council within the nation . the national council being met at the stated time , and place agreed on , compleated and blessed ; then 1. the moderator , with the co attestation of the ruling elder his associate , is to declare unto them the present good estate of that provincial council which sent them , as also the state of all the first councils , and particular churches with them combined ▪ also he declareth such cases●…s ●…s are transmitted by them unto this council ; and such appeals as are made unto them , as part of the present●… business of this council . all these things to be delivered in writing distinctly , unto the notaries , who reade them all , and then record the present good estate of that province , and all the councils and churches therein combined ; as also the matters that are from them dilated unto the present council . 2. the moderator calleth all the rest of the provincial representatives in order , who are to make the like declaration ●…s the moderator hath done , with the co-attestation of their associate ruling elders . all their papers are to be delivered to the notaries , who are to reade , and then record them distinctly , with the present ecclesiastical state of all the provinces in the nation , whose representatives do there appear , & make declaration thereof before the national council . 3. the notaries are orderly to propose all the matters ▪ presented by the provincial councils , when the moderator requireth the same . care being had , that the persons concerned be present , and have free and competent liberty to argue , answer , object , in due , reverent , and modest manner , and to do what may be necessary for the finding out of the truth . 4. if there be no cases transmitted to them , nor appeals , the affairs of all the churches in the nation are presently issued , with glory and praise to the lord iesus , the king of peace . 5. if any other person or persons within the nation , or of any other nation , have any cases or questions about religion , they may now have liberty of proposing the same , to receive an answer . 6. if any cases of difficulty be such , as that they cannot obtain an issue , and resolution satisfactory , then the case must be recorded , and stay untill by further consideration and discussion , god shall please to reveal further light therein , because there is no higher council to appeal unto for light , within the nation . and in such casés , so the apostles did walk , and teach the churches to walk , phil 3. 15 , 16. let us therefore as many as be perfect , be thus minded : and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded , god shall reveal even this unto you . nevertheless , whereunto we have already attained , let us walk by the same rule ▪ let us minde the same things . but if the matter be of due weight and worth , then either by transmission or appeal , it may ascend unto an occumenical council . 7. if any person or persons , whose opinion or practice receiveth a judgement , with counsel and advice in reference to the person or persons concerned , and he or they rest not therein , as to peace and order ; then if he or they ( be they many or few ) be not already under church ▪ censure ; the church to which they belong , are to proceed ( according to the determination of this council in the case ) unto their censure , as the church of corinth did upon the advice of paul , 1 cor. 5. 4 , 5. for the healing of their soules , and bringing of them unto repentance , and good order . which being effected , the end of all this acting , both in conviction and correction , is attended . and thus , within the compass of one year , the whole order of ecclesiastical discipline hath its course , and that in a most difficult case . 8. but yet if he or they rest not , such are high disturbers , and must be suppressed by civil power . and in civil order , he that doth not submit unto and rest in ( as to peace and order ) the sentence of the supreme power , is guilty of a capital offence , and ought to be put to death , by the law of god , deut. 17. 10 , 11 , 12 , 13. and the reason is ; because order is better then any of our lives . it is a greater good to preserve order , then to preserve the lives of the wilfull and obstinate violaters thereof . and the loss of order and peace in ecclesiastical government , in the way of the churches , is of greater consequence , then the loss of their lives . zec. 13. 3 , 6. 9. all things that are to be commended or committed to civil authority , either from the churches , or in behalf of the churches , and religion , are to be resolved , and acted by the national council . where great care is to be had , to keep a clear distinction , betwixt civil and ecclesiastical power , and not to meddle , or in the least , intrude or intrench upon civil authority . the usurpation of antichrist upon the civil authority , must ever keep the ecclesiastical councils in a vigilant fear of that aspiring pride : a worm too apt to breed and grow in the breasts of learned , and eminently gifted men , if there be not a vigilant spirit of mortification , and humble subjection unto order . 10 it will be necessary that an appointed committee of this national council be alwayes ( some or other of them ) resident near unto the supream civil authority ; that they may speedily have notice of all occurrences , that may have respect unto , or concern the ecclesiastical affaires of the churches : and may receive commands from authority , about fastings or feastings , according to the well or ill being of the affaires of the nation , or the churches , either at home or abroad ; and may call together the whole council , if there be any cause that it should be so , &c. 11. such publick fasts and feasts as concern all the churches in the nation to solemnize , which are not first commanded by civil authority , why may they not be appointed and agreed on by the national council●… such publick sins as are to be bewailed ; such mercies as are to be i●…plored for our churches , or for the nation , or for forreign churches and nations ; such motions and designes of spreading and propagating religion as are in hand , &c. these are to be presented to all the churches as matter of prayer , both ordinary and extraordinary . 12. when these members of the national council return unto the provincial councils , whose delegates they ( immediately ) are , they are to report unto them the state and affaires of all the churches in the nation , and in forreign nations also and they are to report them to all the first councils . and they unto all the churches , as matters of prai●…e , and prayer to god , and of incouragement to obedience unto government . and that this communication of ecclesiastical affaires may be the more readily expedited : 1. all the first councils , or some one of every council , may meet that day seven night after the provincial councils meeting to hear the affaires of all the province . and some of the provincial council may be there , to declare the affaires of all the churches in the province . 2. so likewise the provincial councils ( or some of every provincial council ) may meet that day seven-night after the session of the national council , to hear the affaires of the whole nation , and some of the national council may be there to give information of all things ●…ing to be communic●…ted . but experience will put men upon the best w●…y of order in these things . the p●…rticular duties of the oecumeni●…al council i pass in silence ; i leave them to their consideration , whose happy 〈◊〉 it shall be , to see those gl●…rious times , when such councils shall be called . notwithstanding these publick orders of councils , it is lawful for any person , or parties , or church , to take any private ●…unsel , that he or they will or c●…n obtain , according to god , 〈◊〉 they ●…ay have occ●…sion . chap. vii . concerning the way to bring every christian parishional congregation to be an explicite reforming congregational church . i. every parishional congregation , who solemnly renouncing all their sins and evils , both personal and ●…cclesiastical , shall willingly ( by what wayes , means , or motives soever thereunto induced ) submit themselves and their children to the government of christ , in gospel-order ; and particularly to be guided in the common concernments of religion , by the holy advice of the forenamed orders of councils ; and do ( by their pious and prudent counsel and concurrence ) orderly elect all officers , both elders and deacons , among themselves , and promise for themselves and their households , to walk in the christian exercise of all gods ordinances , according to rule , in the faith and order of the gospel : that parish , or so many of them as shall herein concurre . is to be owned a particular reforming congregational church ; and is to be received into the communion of the churches in this order of government . they delivering this act of theirs in writing , unto that first council with whom they associate , there to be recorded . ii. it may , by the good blessing of god , greatly promote rel●…gion , and the reformation of particular churches , if such of the godly gentry of the land , who are not in civil authority , would please to do that honour to christ , to subject themselves to his service , in accepting of the offices of ruling elders and deacons , in the ●…urches of jesus christ. it would much strengthen the hands of church-government , and be no small honour to themselves ; and they will hereby render themselves great in the kingdome of heaven . iii. by the ordinance o●… 〈◊〉 prudentl●… exercised , both publickly in the church , and in private houses , all t●… church are to be trained up unto a competency of knowledge in jesus christ. iv. special ●…are is to be had in the training up of youth in the good knowledge of god , made manifest to the church by their publick account , answer , or confession thereof ; a●…d unto an explicite acknowledgement of christ , with sub●… and engagement of themselves unto the c●…urch , wherein they give up themselves and their children unto god , to be ruled by religion , in the faith and order of the gospel . which done , their children are to be baptized . v. upon the due evidence of some hopeful reall work and change of heart by faith and repentance , duely manifested to the church , whereby the persons concerned may be in charity conceived able to examine themselves , & ●…o discern the lords body in the sacrament , and spiritually to judge of a spiritual cause , such ought , by the church , to be received unto communion in the sacrament of the lords supper , and such males unto voting in the church ; because ordinarily , such as are able to discern christ in the sacrament , are also able spiritually to discern of a spiritual cause , and thereby capable to vote , in such cases wherein the fraternity is called to voting in the church . chap. viii . touching the maintenance of these councils . i. though it be meet that all their necessary charges be born for them ; for who goeth on a warfare at his own charge ? yet it is in no wise meet that any profits or revenues should be annexed unto any of the councils , from the lowest unto the highest . worldly profit , power and splendor , are beneath the spirit and aim of the gospel of jesus christ. onely the notaries place , being a service of much ●…bour , pains and diligence , it is me●…t that some consideration be had for some convenient recompence for their labour . ii. if any godly minded christian , out of a love unto , and zeal for the honour of the kingdome of jesus christ , should desire to give , and annex maintenance unto any of these forenamed councils , more then conveniently to bear their charges ( as noble constantine did for the worldly splendor of the bishops ) it ought not to be permitted , but religiously opposed : for it will certainly prove an inlet of great corruption , ambition , avarice , and strife , unworthy and unfit persons will endeavour to br●…be themselves into places , more for the wages , then for the work. iii. the honour of the service , and the glory of christ that is upon the messengers of the churches , these are i●…separable from the work , and are as much as flesh and blood ( we being in the flesh , and state militant ) will be able to weather , and keep from running ●…ground upon . but revenue and profit are separable from the work , ●…d must be religiously and earnestly ▪ kept off ▪ it being a wor●… that will surely ▪ corrupt ● this blessed work , and glorious service of iesur christ. iv. a small revenue will maintain the government of churches by councils , even in a great nation , in comparison of the vast revenues which the antichristian hierarchy hav●… fa●…ed and inriched themselves withall : which also hath advantaged them to arrogate unto themselves , and 〈◊〉 civil authority . and by these carnal 〈◊〉 unto the church , religion hath been corrupted , most men have been damned , and ●…ew saved . therefore the church ought now , in our reformation and res●…rection , to despise the world , and ▪ not to suffer great revenues to be annexed unto this part of the kingdome of christ especially . v. the religious meetings of councils , must be 〈◊〉 of all meetings of all men , throughout the nation : for they are many shining lights met together , and all men will mark what they do , and one inch of ex●…ss in them who a●…e the center , will be an ell in the people . hence they must strive to be patterns to all men . 1. in gravity : not full of mi●…th , laughter and jesting . ●… . in sobriety : no excess in drinking wine and strong drink . 3. in moderation of diet , ornaments , or any pomp. 4. in sedu●…ity , and diligence : it is the lords work , and cursed be he that doth the work of the lord negtigently . 5. in all holiness of discourse and behaviour . 6. in patience and meekne●… of spirit , in all matters . 7. in care for the publick cause of christ , and welfare of 〈◊〉 the churches , the chief care of all which doth firstly and chiefly ly upon the moderators . vi. great care is to be had of the first councils , that there may be some grave and exemplar e●…ers in every one of them , because according to ou●… custom , there may be sundry that are young , raw , and weak , and need to be trained up unto the gravity , prudence , and holiness of the affaires of christ his ecclesiastical kingdome . care is also to be had , that grave , sober , and pruden●… ruling elders may be sent , such as may be an awe unto gr●…en and young schollars , where need may be . care is also to be had , that they stay no longer then necessary business , and just imployment holdeth them , that there may be no temptations like company-keeping in vanity , and smoaking away their precious time . vii . their entertainment may be 8 d. ordinary at ●…oon , and 6 d. at night , provided they be necessita●…ed to tar●…y ●…ll night , otherwise their charges are but their dinner and horse ▪ mea●… . for the defr●…ying of which charge , the deacons of that church where they meet , may be authorized so to order the matte●… with the deacons of all the churches in that combination , as that the charge shall be by them defrayed , and not put to the accompt of any of the elders . and by the same hands some recompence may be given to the notaries , for their labour and service . for the supply of which charge , the voluntary contributions of every church will be such a treasury , as will never know want , so long as religion , and love to christ remain and rule among them . viii . the provincial councils will be more choice and grave assemblies , and their treatment must be with more respect and reverence : but their expences with the like moderation and sobriety . it is to be supposed that these dwell more remote , are fuller of work , and must tarry longer . if the state entertain these , and allow them 10 li. a session for their four stated sessions in a year ; and 5 li. for the notaries , it will not be a great charge . and if the national council have 100 li. per annum for their attendance and notaries . one thousand pound per annum will suffice for a great nation where they may be in twenty ecclesiastical provinces . and this charge will be less then the the revenues of some one bishoprick . the design of antichrist was to pamper the flesh ; the design of christ is to morti●…ie it , and to honour grace . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a39224-e310 ⸫ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vindiciæ veritatis: truth vindicated against calumny. in a briefe answer to dr. bastwicks two late books, entituled, independency not gods ordinance, with the second part, styled the postscript, &c. / by henry burton, one of his quondam-fellow-sufferers. burton, henry, 1578-1648. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a78034 of text r200279 in the english short title catalog (thomason e302_13). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 92 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 21 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a78034 wing b6177 thomason e302_13 estc r200279 99861085 99861085 113213 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a78034) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 113213) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 50:e302[13]) vindiciæ veritatis: truth vindicated against calumny. in a briefe answer to dr. bastwicks two late books, entituled, independency not gods ordinance, with the second part, styled the postscript, &c. / by henry burton, one of his quondam-fellow-sufferers. burton, henry, 1578-1648. [4], 34, [2] p. printed by m.s. for gyles calvert, and are to be sold at his shop at the west end of pauls., london, : 1645. a reply to "independency not gods ordinance" by john bastwick, published in two parts. the last leaf is blank. annotation on thomason copy: "7bre 22" [i.e. september 22]. reproduction of the original in the british library. eng bastwick, john, 1593-1654. -independency not gods ordinance -early works to 1800. congregationalism -early works to 1800. dissenters, religious -england -early works to 1800. church polity -early works to 1800. great britain -religion -17th century -early works to 1800. a78034 r200279 (thomason e302_13). civilwar no vindiciæ veritatis:: truth vindicated against calumny. in a briefe answer to dr. bastwicks two late books, entituled, independency not gods burton, henry 1645 16820 43 35 0 0 0 0 46 d the rate of 46 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the d category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-05 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-06 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-04 elspeth healey sampled and proofread 2008-04 elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion vindiciae veritatis : truth vindicated against calumny . in a briefe answer to dr. bastwicks two late books , entituled , independency not gods ordinance , with the second part , styled the postscript , &c. by henry burton , one of his quondam-fellow-sufferers . levit. 19. 17. thou shalt not hate thy brother in thy heart : thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour , and not suffer sinne upon him . 1 tim. 5. 20. them that sin rebuke before all , that others also may feare . and ( tit. 1. 13. ) rebuke them sharply , that they may be sound in the faith . zach. 8. 19. love the truth and peace . london , printed by m. s. for gyles calvert , and are to be sold at his shop at the west end of pauls . 1645. ❧ to the ingenuous reader . christian reader ; thi● answer was long agoe so conceived and formed in the wombe , as the slow birth may seeme to have outgone its due time . it waited for the postscript ; which comming forth , proved such a strange creature , as some friends would not have mee foul my fingers with it . hezekiah's word to his people was , in such a case ; answer him not . but finding , that he still pursued me with his incessant provocations in more books since , i thought of salomons counsell , answer not ; and yet , answer . for i perceived , that no answer coming , a tumor began to grow , which needed timely lancing , to prevent some extreame inflamation hastening to a head , while the humour flowed in so fast : therefore i hastened at length as fast , as before i was slow , if possible to recover our brother . so as if i be quick and short with him it is to saye him with feare , plucking him out of the fine . i am plaine , and that 's all . farewell . a briefe answer to dr. bastwicks two late bookes , intituled , independency not gods ordinance , &c. first and second part , or postscript : by one of his quondam-fellow-sufferers . brother bastwicke , i had resolved for a time at least ( as i have done ) to have been silent in these controversies , though provoked not a little ▪ but now your two books you lately sent me as also your late triumphing at westminster , that the man in friday-street had not yet answered your booke , as was given out provoked me afresh in arenam descendere , to take them both to taske , and so vna fidelia duos parietes . and if the perusall of them be not enough in lieu of thankes , i have returned you a compendious answer ; wherein you have bound me by a double ingagement : the one , for the cause ; the other , for my person . but you will say , you have not named me in either of your two books . 't is true indeed . but give me leave to tell you , you have vellicated me , plucked me by the very beard . i will not say , as joab tooke amasa by the beard ; and , withall smote him in the fift rib . what ? use a brother so ? and a quondam-fellow-sufferer too ? yea , & to take him so disgracefully by his white beard too , & that with a scurrilous epithet , calling it * a great white ba●ket-hilted beard ? parcius ista . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , ( as said the old poet ) pittying his white head , and his white chin . and the wise man saith , the beauty of old men is the gray head , yea a crowne of glory ▪ being found-in the way of righteousnesse . i remember when the g●●●es by force entred rome-gates , where they found the grave senators sitting in the gate in their senatorian robes , and their white staves in their hands , thinking thereby to strike some reverence into those harbarous gaules , and one of them redely taking one of the senators by his white beard , the good old senator , ( though in that condition ) not brooking such an affront , struck the gaul over the pate with his white rod ; though this cost him , and the rest their lives , the barbarians instantly falling a butchering of them . but for all your provocations throughout your books , brother , you shall not finde with me so much as a white staffe to lift up against you , though you charge us ( but how justly ) ▪ we have the sword in our hands . nor doe i purpose to retort , or retaliate your little expected , and lesse deserved calumnies , lest i should therein be like unto you : but i shall answer you in the words of truth and sobernesse , and in the spirit of meeknesse and love . but how comes it to passe , that my two fellow-sufferers , and my selfe , should fall at this odds ? was it by any divine providence ominated or presaged , by your two standings on one pillary , and mine alone in the other , that wee should now come upon one ▪ theatre to become spectacles to the world , by mutuall digladiations , as if the one pillary should contend with the other ? or did the distance of the two pillaries boad any such distance in our present judgements ? but yet , o! o , never be such a distance in our affections ! but , herein at least ever be we a threefold coard , not easily broken . but the will of the lord be done , who is onely wise , and will cause all things to co-operate for good to them that love him . but brothers , we expected , that ( according to your own words , pag. 7. ) you would have acted the part of a moderator between us . but instead thereof we find you a judge , and that a severe one too ; but how justly , i leave to others to judge . for in your promised , or rather menaced postscript , which ( to forestall your readers with a prejudicate opinion of us ; and old piece of rhetoricke , as that of tertullus before felix , telling him of paul ; wee have found this man a pestilent fellow , and a mover of sedition , &c. which he was not able to prove , his best rhetoricall argument being calumnidre audacter , aliquid haerebit , calumniate boldly , some thing will sticke ) you both prefix , and for surenesse , affix to your booke ; you fasten upon us uncharitable dealing , fraud and jugglings of many of our pastors and ministers , as misleaders and troublers of church and state , &c. all which * ( {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) hard and harsh termes , wee can no lesse then spread before the lord the righteous judge . i now come to your first booke . and first for those two scriptures which you face your frontispice withall , i desire it may appeare to all men in the conclusion , whether you or i have the better right to them , 2 cor. 13. 8. and 1 thes. 5. 21. pag. 6. brother , that which you intreat of us , you shall finde of your brother ; onely give us leave in your owne words to intreat you to lay aside all passion , and all vaine-glory , and bitternesse , which not onely this your booke , but your threatned postscript breaths out against us . pag. 7. you methodize and modell your booke into two questions : first , concerning the government of the church , whether it be presbyterian dependent , or presbyterian independent : secondly , concerning gathering of churches . now for the first of these , before wee come to your arguments , give me leave to except against your termes , dependent and independent , whereupon as upon a foundation you state your question . and if the foundation be not sure , the superstructure cannot be secure . now brother , doe you set these two termes , dependent , and independent , at such odds , as if there were a great gulfe betweene them , never to come together , and become one ? you hold of dependent onely : we hold not onely of independent , but dependent also . i shall make this cleare : your church dependent is so called in a two-fold relation : first , because it depends for its forme of government upon the lawes of civill states , and so ( as the cha●●leon ) receives impressions of sundry formes , changeable according to the present condition of the civill power , whether protestant , or papist , christian , or antichristian ( as our brother hath set forth ) so as by this meanes , christs church and kingdome ; his spouse , that woman clothed with the sunne , and having on her head , a crowne of twelve starres , and the moone under her feete , should her selfe be turned into the moone , as being subject to continuall changes . secondly , because your church dependent , depends necessarily upon a combination of presbyters of many churches , as councels , synods , assemblies , classes , without whose counsell ( say you ) nothing is to be done in any particular church , of which more hereafter on the other side ; the churches which you call independent , are also dependent . first , they are not otherwise independent , then first , that they are not , nor ought ( in respect of doctrine , discipline , worship , church-government ) to depend upon humane lawes , canons , decrees , customes ; but onely upon christ and his lawes ; as wherein they assert and hold forth christs kingly office and government over them ; and doe affirme , that to set up humane formes of worship and church-government , unto which the consciences and soules of gods people must necessarily conforme and be subject , is a dethroning of the lord jesus christ , and a denying him to be the onely king of his church secondly , independent in this respect , because every particular visible church , rightly constituted according to the word of god , depends not directly and necessarily upon any other church or churches , as without whose jurisdiction ( call it presbyterian , or what you will ) it may not exercise all that power , which christ hath given to every particular church , as touching all the offices and ordinances thereof , and that in as ample manner , as if there were besides that one , no other churches in the world . and yet secondly , this church thus independent , is also dependent . for , as it depends absolutely upon christ , as the onely head of this body ; so as it is a member-church of the catholick , and a sister-church of all particular churches , with which it makes up one body , and one spouse of christ her head and husband : so it hath a mutuall dependence upon all true churches , for communion , for consociation , for consultation , for comfort , for support ; though alwayes saving and retaining to it selfe all those church-priviledges , which by christs charter are peculiar to every particular church , and body of jesus christ . and in case this particular church doe any act of censure upon any , who thereby shall thinke himselfe wronged , and shall addresse himselfe to other churches , by way of complaint , and they shall thereupon desire of that church an account of their proceedings therein , this church will not refuse , but as in christian duty bound , will to those churches render a reason of that , or any other their doings , if questioned , and lawfully required . and all this in a sweet and loving way , with meeknesse and feare , 1 pet. 3. 15. so as none is debarred of any such appeale . nor is any well constituted church of christ to be conceived so brutish , or so conceited of her selfe , as to thinke shee may not erre , or her selfe so wise , as in many difficult cases not to need the counsell of others , or so inflexible , as with the stoicks , sententiam mutare nunquam ; nullius rei poenitere ; never to change their minde or judgement , of nothing to repent , when convinced of an error . but what if one particular church will not , after all due meanes used , ( which yet no rationall man can imagine will ever come to passe ) hearken to the unanimous judgement and counsell of the other churches ? what is to be done ? surely they may upon just cause withdraw communion from that church , which , in that case , is the highest censure the churches can proceed to . and if the party aggrieved complaine to the civill magistrate , the church being called is accountable to the power . thus have i plainely , clearely , and fully , as i conceive , stated these two termes dependent and independent : whereby is sufficiently cleared to the view of all unpartiall judges , not possessed with prejudice , our dependent independency , or independent dependency , from your manner of stating . and for your simile ; wherein you propound it for better understanding ( as you say ) it halteth down-right of all foure , as being altogether ab-simile , and heterogeneous , of another nature . there is a vast disproportion between a civill government , and ecclesiasticall : the one established upon mans lawes , the other on gods ; the one various , and variable , according to severall civill states , kingdomes , and lawes : the other one and the same , ( or should be , if right ) in all the churches of the saints , having one rule , one law to walke by , immutable : and , brother , for your paralleling of your many severall congregations in one citie , or one division , or hundred , or within such a circuit , with a great corporation , as of london , where is one lord major , and aldermen and common councell , and so reducing so many churches into one corporation , as so many companies making upone citie : i suppose you meane not that one provinciall , with his diocesans , and priests under them , should make up this parallel . but this of necessitie you must doe , if you will have all the congregations in their severall divisions , or weapontacks , to be governed by their severall presbyteries respectively . reason requires , that first you set up such presbyters over every one of your congregations , as may be for the greatest part of them good , pious , learned , orthodox : or otherwise , if the greater party be malignant , and ill affected , prophane and haters of the power of godlinesse , they will over-vote the good party ; and so what a hard yoake will you put upon the necks of all such , as be truly godly , when they shall be cast out by a malignant parochiall congregation ? and going to complaine to your presbytery , they shall finde as cold comfort , as formerly they have done in the prelates consistory . but there will be a better care had of placing good presbyters . but brother , let us first see it , that so your presbyterian government may shew us a face the more amiable , and lesse formidable to all truly godly , and most conscientious men . but if you cannot doe this , whither shall the poore soules goe , which live under a prophane presbyter , or one that admits all sorts tag rag to the lords table , with whom godly soules can no more converse , then with heathen ; and much lesse at that holy ordinance , where they must be made companions with such kinde of saints , as job would not set with the dogs of his flocke : and if any whose conscience is not so strong to digest such hard bits , as others of the common multitude are , who either see no difference at all between the precious and the vile ; ( but account all alike saints at least , when but at the sacrament ) or have such sepulchre-wide throats , as they can swallow a camell , when a tender and more narrow conscience is apt to be choaked with every gnat : what shall this poore soule doe ? doth he rather withdraw from the ordinance , then he can endure to see it so prophaned , and so partake with the prophaners ? then he heares , a schismaticke . now if you have not a good presbytery , where shall he goe to complaine ? he may goe and appeale higher , you will say . and what if the higher the worse ? good brother , either provide the people of the land an honest godly presbytery , that may be as so many angels to gather out of christs kingdome every thing that offends : or else let there be a tender care of tender consciences , and some provision made for them , that they may not be scandalized , by being forced to be the companions of the scandalous . and therefore brother , you that professe so much solicitous care to poore bodies , let some drops of your charity fall upon their soules . and at the least , and last extremity , call in that postscript of yours , and suppresse it in the presse , that it may never see the sunne ; as wherein you proscribe all those , that are not of your dependent presbytery : for you tell us , it is to come forth a fortnight hence , in the which it will be proved , that it is the duty of all christian magistrates , parents , masters of families , and all such as truly feare god , to yeeld their hand for the suppressing of heresies , and all novelties in religion , if they really desire the glory of god , &c. and what you meane by your heresies and novelties in religion , is obvious to all by this your booke already come forth , independency is heresie , and novelty in religion , and what not , that nought is ? now did ever proceed out of the mouth of a quondam-martyr , and one newly brought out of a balefull prison , such a fiery breath as this ? oh brother , remember thy selfe , and repent ; and let the world know , that thou hast made a better use of afflictions , then so fiercely to run on in such a course , as to wreck the malignity of a prison upon thy best friends , the seed of whose love , so liberally sowne upon thee and thine , expected another-gates harvest , then nettles , bryars , and thornes . but you bring the scripture for you . come on , brother , let you and me try it out by the dint of this sword . and truly , i shall by the helpe of my god make no long worke of it . you spend above eleven sheets , wherein you have woven sundry long threaden arguments , to measure out your dependent presbytery , as holding parallell with the line of scripture . now you must pardon me , if i shall assay ( according to an old proverbe ) with one stroake of phocions hatchet , to cut in two the long thread of your alcibiadian fluent and luxuriant rhetorications . for answer . first , let me aske you a question : whether those many congregations you so call , you doe not understand to be so many distinct , and particular intire church-bodies , or churches respectively . if they be , tell us , if each of these churches be 〈◊〉 its prime and proper notion an intire church , without or before it be united in such a presbyterian combination , and government , as you speake of . and if so , whether it be de esse , or de bene esse , of the being , or onely well-being of each particular church , so to be united , and combined into a church-collective , of many churches into one . if you say , it is of the being of a church , to be yoaked with other churches , as into one , then what being had that church in abrahams family , seeing there were then no other churches in the world , but that ? and if that were extraordinary , ( as perhaps you will say ) then say i , when churches are multiplied , and combined into one , whether is this church collective dependent , or independent ? if dependent , then not an entire church , but subordinate unto , or depending upon some greater assembly . but come we to the highest of all , a generall counsell of all the churches in the world : is this now , a church dependent , or independent ? if independent , then there may be a church independent in the world ; and so the first particular church in the world , was no lesse an independent church , in reference to other churches . and if all churches in one oecumenicall councell , as one church , be dependent , then whereupon dependent ? or is it a dependent on it selfe ? that were blasphemy to say it . whereon then ? surely on the scripture or nothing . all churches then are dependent upon the scripture necessarily : not so necessarily one church upon another , whether particular or generall . ergo , all particular churches being not necessarily dependent one upon another , nor one upon many , but absolutely dependent upon the scripture for their ultimate or finall resolutions , are no lesse independent upon other churches ; because all the churches in the world put together , cannot of themselves give forth an infallible oracle ; as to say , this wee command to be beleeved and observed . this is antichrists voyce , volumus & jubenius . the church , or churches may shew their reasons from scripture , and labour to perswade , but cannot binde them upon faith or conscience ; this the holy ghost and scripture can onely doe . but i come briefly to your arguments , whereby you would prove your classicall presbyterian government , and so upward . the patterne hereof you take from the christian church at jerusalem . hereof many arguments , or rather words , and tantologies you multiply , and toyle your selfe and vex your reader withall , which you might have reduced to one . it is in summe , this : in jerusalem were many christian congregations , and all these made but one church , and so were governed by one presbytery . but that church at jerusalem , being the prime apostolicke church , is a patterne for all succeeding churches : ergo , all church-government ought to be regulated by that , and consequently by a presbytery over many congregations . for as for your indefinite enumeration of those multitudes baptized by john baptist , and by christs disciples , we take no notice of them , unlesse formed into a church , or churches : but following the expresse scripture , the first formed church wee finde in act. 2. which though consisting of five thousand , yet it was one intire particular church , and not churches ; and they continued daily {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , with one accord in one place together , ( ver. 2. ) and in the temple , ( ver. 44. 46. ) growing from a hundred and twenty ( act. 1. 15. ) to three thousand more , ( chap. 2. 41. ) and then in all five thousand ( chap. 4. 4. ) and all these but one church , which assembled together to heare the word in the temple ; and though they wanted a convenient place so spacious , as wherein to breake bread , or receive the lords supper all together , so as they were constrained to sever themselves into divers companies , in severall private houses to communicate , yet this severing was not a dividing of the church into so many distinct formall churches , or church-bodies , being but so many branches of one and the same particular church ; which though you call so many congregations , yet properly so many churches they were not . and therefore you never read , the churches at or in jerusalem , but , the church at jerusalem . and this no nationall church neither , witnesse those churches in judea , gal. 1. 22. whereupon i answer to your argument ; and first to your proposition . i deny that those congregations you name , are so many churches , properly so called , having their distinct officers and members , united into one church-body respectively . this i put you to prove . and without proving it , your 11 or 12 shee●… spent about this argument prove to be meere wast paper . and for your assumption , that the church at jerusalem , as being a prime apostolicke church , is therefore a patterne for all succeeding churches , and therefore for a classicall presbytery over many churches ▪ you must first prove your proposition , as before , that there were many churches in jerusalem constituted in their distinct formes , and bodies . secondly , it being no more , then one entire particular church ( and not any diocesan , or provinciall church , or the presbytery thereof classicall , ( as you would beare us in hand ) it is a patterne for all particular churches in succeeding ages ; and yet ( by your favour ) not so perfect a patterne , as no apostolicke church besides it should also come in , to make up the patterne compleat . for we are necessarily to take all the churches in the new testament together , to make up one entire & perfect church patterne . for in the church at jerusalem , we finde election of officers , but we finde not expressed that part of discipline ; for casting out of corrupt members , as in the church of corinth , and so in the rest . for the churches were not brought forth to full perfection in one day . their very constitution had a graduall growth . the church at jerusalem had not at first deacons , till there was a necessitie ; and the largenesse of the church required seven deacons ; which is no patterne for every church to have seven deacons . the summe is , to make up a compleat patterne , not onely the church at jerusalem , but that of corinth , of ephesus , those of gal●tia , that of philippi , and the rest ; are to be conferred together , that each may cast in its shot to make up the full reckoning , that so what is not expressed in one , may be supplied by the rest , to make one entire platforme . for the scripture consists of many books , as so many members in one body ; one member cannot say to another , * i have no need of thee . againe , the church at jerusalem , if it must be a patterne for all other churches , then in this , that all other churches must be subject to some one church , because ( act. 15. ) things in question were there debated , and determined , and sent to other churches to be observed . but for as much as that church at that time in those things was infallibly guided by the holy ghost , wherewith the apostles there were inspired , in which respect their resolutions were with authoritie , it pleased the holy ghost and us , ( that which no particular church since the apostles could ever say ) it followeth that the church then at jerusalem remaines not in all things a patterne for other churches ; for a patterne must be in all things imitable , and perfect . lastly , for appeales , so much agitated , and pressed , i have said enough before , and elsewhere ( as in my vindication ) to vindicate the right use of that in point of church matters . and so i passe briefly from your first question to your second ; which is concerning the manner of gathering of churches , and admitting members and officers : viz : whether ministers of the gospel may , out of already congregated assemblies of believers , select and choose the most principall of them into a church-fellowship peculiar unto themselves , and admit of none into their societie , but such as shall enter in by a private covenant , and are allowed of by the consent and approbation of all the congregation . this is your generall stating of your question ; and out of the wombe thereof , there doth issue a numerous brood , no lesse then six queries , or if you will ( to usurpe your owne usuall expression ) so many sucking questions , hanging at the dugs of their damme , your generall question . for answer to all in their order : but before i answer , let mee premise thus much : brother , i well see ( and that without spectacles ) that among all those independents whom you so familiarly hurle stones at , and cast up dust , yea durt in their faces , i am not the least object in your eye , as by many palpable passages in your booke doth appeare . and therefore i shall crave leave , that i may have the favour to represent and personate all those my brethren the ministers , whom giantlike you revile and challenge , and warre against under the name of independents , as taking this take upon my selfe alone , in answering this your question about gathering of churches . first then to your generall stating of the question . you say , it concernes the manner of gathering . do you imply here the lawfulnesse of the matter of gathering , by questioning onely the manner ? your words may seeme to import so much . but i will not quarrell a word . i come to your question , viz. whether ministers of the gospel , &c. surely if any , then ministers of the gospel may gather churches : and that for two reasons ; first , because by the gospel , & the ministry thereof , churches are gathered to christ . secondly , because we read , that the apostles ▪ and other ministers of the gospel have by their ministry gathered churches . therefore no question , but if any , then ministers of the gospel may gather churches to christ . i , but out of already congregated assemblies of believers , to select and choose the most principall of them . indeed this is something to purpose . but tell me , brother ▪ who is it ▪ that doth this ? you apply it to us all , and to me in particular . but i deny that i so doe , and i dare say the like for others . and can you prove all those parishes , out of which churches are so gathered , as you say , to be assemblies of believers ? but they all professe to be christians . true , so doe all papists . ergo , are all popish parishes , assemblies of believers ? so as if ministers of the gospel should by their preaching convert sundry papists of severall popish parishes to become a church of christ , should they gather such a church out of so many assemblies of believers ? but ( say you ) wee gather churches out of assemblies of believing protestants . why brother , doe you not know this to be a time of reformation ? and have we not all taken the solemne covenant to reform our selves and others , according to the word of god ? and to endeavour to our power , to extirpate and roote out all popery , prelacy , idolatry and superstition out of this kingdome ? and the time of this first gathering , was it not then , when the old service and ceremonies were in use ? and who hath gathered these churches ? wee . who are we that you should thus charge us ? as peter and john answered , why looke yee so on us ? so , why doe yee impute that to us , which is onely to be attributed to the gospel of the grace of god , whereby our very protestants are wonne from their old superstitions , and will-worship , and from under the yoake of humane formes in the matters of christs kingdome ? so as when they heare , christ is the onely king of his kingdome , the onely law-giver of his church , and his word the onely law and rule of all church-government , and all this demonstrated in the word of god , which they have taken a solemne covenant in all things to follow : doe you reproach us , for being a people who are ready to obey christ , so soone as wee heare of him , who alone is to be heard in all things , whatsoever he shall say unto us ? and for churches , doe you , brother , limit churches to parishes ? what if you finde so many hundred parishes in england , whose inhabitants both ministers and people are all malignants , or popishly-affected ? will you have those parishes to be so many churches , and those popish malignants , so many believers ? were not this to set up ecclesiam malignantium , or churches malignant , which are no way militant , but against the power of religion , and the peace of the civill state ? or if there be found some one or two in each of those parishes , that have the love of christ in them , and are truly godly , and whose soules are grieved to communicate with sodome : will you not allow god to send an angel , his messenger , with a word to call them forth ? and doe you not know , that the ancient church of the jewes was then a church , when the apostles by their preaching gathered a church out of it ? a christian church out of the jewes synagogue ? i , say you , but we gather christian churches out of christian churches . surely then it is gods word that calleth christians to come into a more reformed church-way , out of wayes more corrupt and lesse reformed . nor doe wee separate from the churches as christian , as you call them , but from their corruptions , * separating the precious from the vile , as from something antichristian . but you will say , now are the parishes and churches purged , no service-book now , no hierarchy , no such thing , and yet wee select and choose the most principall into a church-fellowship peculiar unto our selves . to which i answer : though the service-book , hierarchy , &c. be taken away , yet the parishes are not so purged of them , but that most mens hearts are still hankering after that egyptian-service and task-masters . again , all those that professe to be come off from those things , yet are not resolved what religion to take to , but are ready to take up ( as themselves say , and do ) what religion men will set up over them , not looking to what the scripture prescribes and commands ; so as it remains , that those who embrace the word , and preferre christs decrees before mans , are those principall men , whom not we , but the word of christ doth call forth , select and choose voluntarily to joyn in church-fellowship ; and this not so peculiar to our selves , but that when a right reformation is set up in the severall places where they dwell , they may enjoy the pure ordinances there , as i have shewed in my vindication . and if you examine who they be that have joyned themselves unto the lord , either of this parish , or of other , you shall find them to be for their outward estate , ( in comparison of others ) none of those principall men you speak of . but say you , wee admit of none into our society , but such as shall enter in by a private covenant . now the very name of covenant is become a bug-bear to many . but it is mightily mistaken , as i have shewed in my vindication : for it is nothing else , but a declaration of a free assent , and voluntary agreement to walk in the wayes of christ with the church , whereof they are members , and to perform all service of love one to another , submitting themselves to the order and ordinance of christ , in that church respectively . so that it is not the name of covenant that is so terrible , but the order of church-communion ; and this to those only , that having used to walk without a yoak ( as the scripture calls sons of belial ) love not to come under the yoak of christ , then which to a willing bearer nothing is more easie and sweet . but lastly , you say , they must be allowed of by the consent and approbation of all the congregation . and ( i pray ) what harm in that ? nay , doth it not stand with very good reason , that they who are to walk together , should first be agreed together ? as amos 3. 3. can two walk together , except they be agreed ? if therefore any one of the congregation can object any thing , as a just cause of non-admittance of a member , he ought to shew it , not only for his own peace , but the peace of the church . therefore , to object such things as these , doth it argue a spirit favouring of such a holy humility , as becomes those who affect the society of saints ? and when the whole church gives approbation in this kind , it is both to the church and the member admitted , a comfort , and withall , a discharge of their duty in a provident care for preventing inconveniences and scandals ; seeing it is easier for a guest to be kept out , then to be cast out . thus much of your question in generall ; which because i have met with it in the severall branches , i shall need to say the lesse to those queries which you derive from it . and in truth they are rather captions then queries ; and the first is answered in my former stating of the question . for the second , to know those well , that are to be admitted , abundans ca●tela non nocet : in things weighty , we cannot be too wary ; nor do we so much look at circumstances in conversion , as the substance . the third , for the consent of the congregation , it is answered before : so also the fourth , about the covenant . the fifth , for the power of the keys , wee tie it not to womens girdles . the sixth , and last , i answer , that those churches , which are for matter and form , true churches , and are governed according to christs word , do set up christ as king upon his throne . and for such as are otherwise , let them consider , whether they do as they ought , set up christ as king upon his throne . you proceed , i have ( say you ) specified the things without any spirit of bitternesse . in deed , this your first book ( as we finde by tracing your steps in other tracts ) is a summary collection of what they have gone before you in , whose thread hath led you all the way through this maze : but when you come ( as in your postscript ) to minister your own dosis , and to show your self in your own element , there wee finde the main ingredient to be the very gall of bitternesse , which yet your first book is not altogether free of . pag. 101. you say , the apostles , and other ministers of the gospell were to receive all such as believed , and were baptized , and that upon the profession of their faith and repentance , without any further testimony of others , unlesse they had been formerly known to be open enemies , and then they were justly to be suspected , till they had given publique evidence by witnesse to the apostles and ministers of their true conversion , as concerning paul , acts 9. 26 , 27. now here i observe : 1. a notable contradiction to what you say , pag. 115. as gods command to all ministers was , that they should admit all such into the church , as believed and were baptized , upon their desiring it , without any confession , either private or publique . here i leave you to reconcile your own contradiction . vpon their profession , and without any confession . 2. i answer , that in these dayes of professed , and covenanted-for reformation , there is required the profession or confession of one speciall point of faith ▪ ( which in words ; none dare , but in practice most do deny ) touching christs kingly office , formerly suppressed by antichristian tyrannie , but now breaking forth from under the cloud in its native light , concerning his absolute , sole soveraignty over our consciences and churches , without dependence upon humane ordinances , or nationall lawes to prescribe such forms of church-government , as are most serviceable to the politicall ●nd● of severall states ; which point of faith is ( though not alwayes explicitly , yet ) implicitly confessed by all those , which ●ender themselves to be admitted into such churches , as are of a constitution most agreeable to the law and rule of christ . and withall , an implicit profession at least of their repentance is included , as having formerly lived under an antichristian government , and inventions of will-worship , all which is implicitly professed and repented of , by their very entrance into church-fellowship ; and so much the more is repentance herein needfull , because many , yea most of such conformists , if not all , have had their hands , lesse or more , either by acting , or assenting , or by silence and connivence in the persecution of those godly ministers and people , which stood out against that antichristian usurpation over their consciences , refusing conformity to their canons . so as in this case , you confesse , that our people ( formerly conformists , and now , for the greater part , but newly crope out of the shell of their bondage , being brought off from their old ceremoniall service , and this more by humane authority in generall so ordering , then of conscience ) ought not only to approve themselves by the profession of their faith , and repentance , but to have the testimony of others also , as having been formerly known to be either prest and sworn vassals , or voluntiers in the prelaticall militia , which what is it else , but a continuall war against the true church and kingdome of jesus christ ? but you adde ( pag. 102. ) that commission was delivered to the apostles and ministers of the gospel , as whose place only it was by the keyes to open and shut the doors of the church , and so to admit , or refuse , as they found men fitted or qualified , to be made members ; and this you labour to prove by the practice of john baptist . now , as for john baptist ( about whose gathering you have so bestirred your selfbefore , and to as little purpose ) you may observe , that those believers in christ then to come , according to the papists doctrine , were not formed into a christian church , or churches , as after christs resurrection the believers were . and when you come to visit those christian churches once constituted in their gospel-form by the apostles , you shall finde , that the power of admitting or rejecting , or casting out of members , was not in the apostles or ministers alone , but in the churches . for this , read 1 cor. 5. where the whole church of the saints in corinth , to whom paul wrote , were to cast out the incestuous person ; as also afterward upon his repentance , to re-admit him , 2 cor. 2. 6 , 7. this one instance is a sufficient president for all churches . but you alledge that of cornelius sending to joppa for peter , he sent not ( say you ) to the church of corinth ; true , and what then ? ergo , none but the minister of the gospel hath power to admit members . it is one thing to preach , and instrumentally to convert souls , which chiefly pertains to those that are called thereunto : but in the case of church-government , of admitting ▪ or casting out , it is otherwise . and here let peter himself ( whose words you alledge ) resolve us ; who , when the holy ghost so wonderfully fell on all them that heard the word , said , can any man forbid water , that these men should not be baptized , &c. which words imply , that ifany exceptions could have ben made , it was in those jewes present , to give forth their allegations , why those believing gentiles should not be admitted to become one church with the believing jewes . so as your observations thereupon fall to the ground ; as that , first , peter was sent to , and not the church ; and , secondly , peter commanded them to be baptized : again , this example was extraordinary in all the circumstances of it ; and when you have said all , you can conclude nothing . your instance of the eunuch , acts 8. 8. of lydia , acts 16. as many other , are meer extravagants . we speak of churches constituted , not of single converts , here and there one , not yet joynted into a particular church-body . i passe by your impertinent declamatious against different opinions in the same house . do you reconcile them ; for christ himself foretold of them , as wee shall tell you when wee come to your postscript ; which when i mention here , doth not your minde misgive you ? but of this in due place . and where you say , all that believe , and are baptized , are by gods command to be admitted , desiring it , without any confession , or covenant : but what if they do not believe aright ? what if they not only not believe , but deny and disclaime christs kingly prerogative ? and so , what if they stiffly maintain a most damnable and destructive herefie , which overthroweth a main principall and fundamentall of faith ? if such a one , as dr. bastwick with all his ●air flourishes of holinesse , should desire to be admitted into church-fellowship , being known to be an adversary to christs kingly government over his churches , according to the gospel : might not the doctors own words satisfie , in case of refusall ( pag 102. ) as having been formerly known for an open enemy and persecutor of the church , and so justly to be suspected , till publique evidence by witnesse given ? although it cannot be imagined that the ba●e desiring of admittance into church-fellowship could stand with the deniall , but necessarily implies a confession of christs kingly office in its highest degree . pag. 116. you tell us , that our gathering of churches hath no example in scripture , and as for christs disciples , they were all sent to gather in the lost sheep of the house of israel , they went not to gather in converted amongst converted men , &c. now wee cannot have a more pregnant and more warrantable example in all scripture then this , which you here alledge against us . christs disciples gathered christian churches out of the church of the jews ; nor can you deny , but the jews were a church , when the disciples gathered churches out of it . those churches in judea ( gal. 1. 22. ) were gathered out of the church of the jewes ; and that church of the jewes generally believed that the messias , or christ , was to come . and if they were a church when many being converted , were gathered out of it , then much more churches may be gathered out of nations or kingdomes of the world , though for their generall profession of christianity , every such nation or kingdome be respectively called a church , though the new testament knowes no such church , and then not of divine constitution , as that of the jews was , even when churches christian were gathered out of it . and brother , prove unto us , that such as you call a nationall church , is a church of divine institution ; shew us an example of a nationall church in all the new testament , otherwise you do but weave the spiders web . but wee ( say you ) gather converted men from among converted men , and so pick out of others folds and flocks the best and fattest sheep . this you do familiarly cast in our dish , and yet it is never the fatter . now in this wee may justly demand of you , to prove , that those whom you call converted men , from among whom wee gather churches , be indeed so converted as they should be , when as yet they come not up close to the rule of reformation , gods word , as thereby to endeavour the setting up of christ , without waiting on men , as without whom gods word is not a sufficient rule , and as on whom wee must necessarily depend for the form and law of reformation : and yet wee deny not but many such may be godly , though otherwise they are not as yet throughly convinced of this kingly government of christ , which we endeavour after ; nay , let me go a little higher ; for as much as this is an undeniable , yea , and prime principle in divinity , that the scripture is the only rule of faith , and of worship , and church-government , and this rule is no monopoly to one man , but that all and every man hath a power and priviledge to repair to this law and testimony , to do all things according to this word : and seeing wee have all bound our selves by solemn covenant to reform our selves , and those under our charge , according to the word of god ; yea , and every one to go before other in this reformation : tell mee now , brother , were it not a matter worth the while , for our reverend and learned assembly , seriously to take it into debate , whether the generall tying up of men , to wait necessarily on the synod for its finall resolution about church-government , be not an usurpation upon our christian liberty , and a diminution , at least of the authority and sufficiency of scripture , and so consequently be not a trenching upon a fundamentall heresie ; as also an inhibition , restraining every man in his place , ministers , masters , &c. from setting upon the work of reformation , and so necessitating a violation of our covenant , or a dangerous retarding of the work , bringing in a sleepy carelesnesse upon mens spirits , to inquire at gods oracle , and so preparing a way for blind obedience ; i leave to the consideration of the wisest . but in the interim , to return to your converts ; do you hold all them to be converts , from among whom churches are gathered ? do you not allow of a difference to be put ? are there not a number of both ignorant and scandalous , that are not fit to come to the lords table ? see the directory : or do you take the greatest number in england to be godly , and truly converted ? or are there not ( trow you ) many parishes in england , where , perhaps but a few true converts are to be found ? and how few ( in comparison ) truly godly and faithfull ministers are to be found for every parish , under who●e pastorall charge , two or three sheep may safely and comfortably feed among so many goats , yea , perhaps , wolves ? or do you make every parish to be a church ? you may do well herein to deal plainly with us , whether you would have so many inhabitants as are in every parish , to be so many communicants . for so it seems you would have it : for ( pag. 117. ) you say , in the churches of corinth , galatia , colosse , were many that walked disorderly , taught false doctrine and heresies , and made schismes ; yet the apostles did not bid the christians to separate themselves from the communion and assemblies of the saints , and from the ordinances , for these mens causes , &c. but you may know , those churches , though in part accidentally corrupt , yet were essentially , and in their originall constitution pure and holy churches ; and so were never your parochiall churches , they never had a right divine constitution , but meerly humane and politicall . and therefore all your argumentation a dispari , falls to ground , and beats it self into a meer spume . but ( pag. 118. ) you plead , such ministers and churches to be true , where the truth of christ is preached , received and professed . if you mean the whole truth of christ , it is well . but do not you know , that there are three speciall visible marks of a true visible church , the gospel purely preached , the sacraments duly administred , and discipline rightly practised ? all which marks together , the church of england ( for ought i know ) is yet to seek . for ( to speak nothing here of the materialls of a true particular visible church : as visible saints ; nor of the form of it , so many members united into one church-body and fellowship , according to the gospel , which you can handly shew us in any of your parochiall congregations ) i will only ask you , what particular visible church you are a member of ( you may choose what parish you please in england ) : next , i ask you , what discipline you have in that your church ; and whether a man complaining of you to your congregation , or to your minister , for wrongs done by you , and for your scandalous walking , he shall find so much discipline there as to convent you before them , and justly charging you for walking scandalously , to the great offence and shame of the very name of christian religion , you shall thereupon be brought under ecclesiasticall censure , so as to have the scandall removed , and the offence satisfied ? good now tell me , what church either parochiall , or classicall , i should go unto ? for , suppose i have a complaint against you , for which i demand satisfaction , at the least , so as by the means of your church-censure you may be brought to a contrite acknowledgement of the wrong you have done mee . but if you cannot shew me such a church in any of your parishes , b●… is it that you affirm * christ to be set up as king in his throne in mens hearts , swayed and guided by the scepter of his word and spirit in your parochiall congregations : when as you cannot shew us ( i say ) in any one of those congregations * the name and power of our lord jesus christ to be so set up , as authoritatively and judicially to deliver over to satan , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , or otherwise condignly to censure such a one , as whose brother complains of to that congregation , for unsufferable wrongs , and most base and barbarous usage , unbeseeming a naturall heathen , much lesse a professed christian ? and here i challenge our brother for taking christs name in vain , when in stead of finding christ set upon his throne in their congregations , wee finde there no more but an image , such as michal had made up in stead of king david ; or as those , that in mockery , made of christ a pageant-king , stripping him , and putting on him a scarlet robe , and on his head a crown of thornes , and in his hand a reed , saluting him with , hail king of the jewes , with which title over his head they crucified him . and therefore those passages which ( page 118 , 119. ) he quotes of his brother ( though not named ) will stand good against their opposers ▪ the summe of which is this : that all that depend upon men for church-government , and not upon christ and his word alone , doe deny christs kingly government over consciences and churches : that all that receive not christs kingly office in the full extent of it , but after manifestation , doe reject it , are at the best converted but in part , and so in a worse condition , then those who though they believed , yet they had not so much as heard there was a holy ghost , but hearing , they received him : that such as refuse to be in covenant with christ , or to make profession or confession thereof before men , want their evidence of their being gods people , and so quantum in se , as much as in them lyeth , cut off their children from having interest in baptisme , the externall seale of the covenant . and therefore seeing such things are objected , how doth it concerne both ministers and people to looke to their evidences ? to omit his tedious tautologies all along ( being the bombast of the booke ) to pag. 124. there he saith , when the ministers of england teach this doctrine in their preachings and writings , how can they be truly said to deny , disclaime , and preach against christs kingly government over mens consciences and churches ? it were well if they did truly indeed preach it , which few or none of them doe . or if they doe truly preach it , why doe they not practise it , and perswade the people to depend upon christ for it , and not upon men ? but ( pag. 126. ) the ministers of england set up a presbytery after gods word . this you can never yet prove unto us , untill wee may see it . but the independents themselves are presbyterians ( say you ) and labour ●o set up a presbytery of their own . thus here , and all along you carry it with a torrent of words , and that is all . wee set up that presbytery , which wee finde in gods word , and none other . then ( pag. 127. ) you fall againe upon the strictnesse used in admission of members , which ( say you ) the apostles used not . but wee know , that all those who were admitted by them , did first make confession of their faith and repentance , as mat. 3. 6. acts. 2. 37. act. 19 18 , 19. act. 8. 37. and the apostles feared to receiv●paul , as their fellow-apostle , untill they had examined the truth thereof . and ( pag. 130. ) you charge us with making schismes , &c. surely we are commanded to separate our selves from all corruptions of the world , and humane inventions ; as 2 cor. 6. 16. acts 2. 40. and this , when a christian church began to be gathered out of that of the jewes . pag. 138. you inveigh against new truths , and new lights , as you every where nauseously call them : and say , where was it ever heard of , either in the christian or pagan world , that it was ever permitted to any minister or preacher , to have all the pulpits in any nation to preach a diverse doctrine to that whi●h is set up by authoritie , and such as tends to make a faction and division amongst the people ? i doe most assuredly beleeve , that there cannot the like precedent be produced . so you . no ? what say you of that precedent of the apostles , who in the temple daily preached a diversed doctrine , to that of the pharisees ? so of john baptist . so of christ . and this in judea , which was a parallel at least to a nationall christian church , onely that was originally founded upon divine institution , but this not so . and for the pagan world , what innumerable precedents are there , of preaching the gospel , and constituting of churches , even throughout the pagan world ? and all this divers to that which was set up by mans authoritie , whether jewish , or paganish . and as our brother here , so did the high priests in their counsells charge the apostles , saying , * yee have filled jerusalem with your doctrine . a new doctrine , a new truth , a new light . so act. 24. 5. tertullus , with his rhetoricke , being feed by the high priest and the elders , makes a declamation against paul , saying , wee have found this m●m●… pestilent fellow , and a mover of sedition among all the jewes throughout the world , and a ringleader of the sect of the nazarens . and this word nazarens , signifies the sect of saparatists , of whom the apostle is there maliciously marked , as the {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ▪ the ring-leader . the like out-cry we have , act. 21. 28. men of israel , helpe : this is the man , that teacheth all men every where against the people , and the law , and this place , &c. nor want wee a pagan precedent , act. 19. 26 where diana's silver-shrine-maker , what a dust he raiseth in the whole citie , saying ; yee see and heare , that not alone at ephesus , but almost throughout all asia , this paul hath perswaded and turned away much people , saying , that they be no gods which be made with hands . thus you see paul , and the other apostles , and evangelists , found pulpits every where , both among the jewes and gentiles , though they preached a divers doctrine , to that set up by authoritie . and must christ have no other doctrine or church-government in the world , then that which is set up by the worlds authoritie ? surely , this is a new light indeed , if a light at all ; a new doctrine , diverse to that which christ hath set up by his divine authoritie . but this doctrine ( say you ) tends to make a faction and division among the people . and did pauls , and the apostles doctrine escape the scourge of this whip ? note all the places forecited , with many more throughout the new testament , and all ages , where the gospel in its purity and power is preached . but one thing more i must not passe , without a note . how doth our brother make good his exclamation : was it ever beard of either in the christian or pagan world , that it was ever permitted to preachers , to have all the pulpits in a nation to preach a divers doctrine , & c ? and is it so indeed ? have we all the pulpits in the kingdome ? i hope your brother t. e. by his pen and preaching , and you by your pen , will take an order for that , that wee shall not have all the pulpits , no nor any at all with your good will witnesse that late mis-●ule at your towne of colchester , upon your books , and t. e. his preaching . and therefore this may be placed among your grolleries . and for the jewish synagogues tolerated among the heathen , if we may not have the pulpits , good now envie us not our synagogues . be not worse to us , then the heathen were , and are , as you give us sundry examples , pag. ibid. 138. page 140 you call the people of the presbyterian independent congregation , a company of wild geese . but wee are not yet come to your postscript ; where pag. 14. you call them silly goslings following the old goose . yet here you acknowledge that the elders have oftentimes great abilities of wit , and scholarship , learning and eloquence : which in your postscript you universally strip them of , except onely two for breed . the rest of your booke to the end , being all along overgrowne with nettles , stinging upon every touch , and the sharper still , the neerer it drawes to the postscript , ( as , worse then * diotrephes , or the pope ▪ * most diabolicall tyranny , lording it over gods clergies , * fellows of gotham colledge , not knowing their prim●r in politicks , nor their catechisme in divinitie , and the like ) we gladly passe ove● untouched , as being all prickles , and no pith . onely one sharper then all the rest , i may not be unaware of , which you call , the weapon of the left hand , namely , the sword , which you would have the magistrate to take up to suppresse our brethren the independents ( as you style them ) calling that man a ninny , and a man unworthy to sit in counsell in any state , that should say with gamaliel , refraine from these men , for if their worke , or counsell be of god , yee cannot overthrow it , lest yee be found fighters against god ; and so let them goe on to doe mischiefe . for herein ( say you ) gamaliel spake neither as a wise man , nor as a christian . thus our brother drawing neere the end of this his booke , hath drawne it so low neere the bottome , that the very lees of it begin to run atilt , and that remaines , is reserved to be powred forth in the postscript . the postscript . this whole postscript is a very c●nto & farrago , or hodge-podge of invectives , sarcasmes , scurrilous scoffs , incendiary incentives to stirre up the state , and all sorts of people , to root out , and cut off all those that are of the independent way , as they call it . i shall onely note some of his passages all along , to prevent ( if it may be ) the nauseousnesse of the reader by brevitie . and first in his defence against calumnies , being in way of a preface to his postscript . page 2. they affirmed ( saith he ) that i was the greatest incendiary in the kingdome , and that they would prove it ; and page 4. they calumniate me as the greatest incendiary of the kingdome , which they accused me of before they had seene my booke ; and i have been freed from that reproach by both houses of parliament , who adjudged all my sufferings unjust . answ. but now they may bring your booke for a proofe and witnesse , whether you be not one of the greatest incendiaries in the land . and for this i shall quote but two places , as two witnesses for confirmation hereof . the first is in your preface , pag. 28. they ( alwayes meaning the independents ) have the sword now in their hand , and they thinke their party strong enough to encounter any adverse and opposing party , and they professe they care not how soone they come to cutting of throats , and speake of nothing but the slanghtering and butchering of the presbyterians . and therefore there is just cause given us to thinke we may expect better quarter from the very enemies , then from the independents . the second witnesse is ( postscript pag. 45. ) that they were all resolved to have the liberty of their consciences , or else they would make use of their swords , which they have already in their hands . now these two witnesses of your owne , want but a judge , judicially to pronounce sentence , whether these words be not of an incendiary nature , and that in a high degree . for who so blind , as doth not cleerly see these fiery flashes and flames to fly in the face of that army , which god hath honoured with many crownes of admirable victories , both at yorke , at nasby , and at lamport , with the recovery of leicester , bridgewater , bath , &c. so as god hath made this despised army the preservative of citie and countrey , the * repairer of the breach , the restorer of the paths to dwell in . but doe they professe the butchery of the presbyterians ? produce them ; bring your witnesses . these words are not to be borne . but i leave the judgement thereof to the wisdome and justice of the parliament , whose former freeing of you , extends not to cleare your words from being incendiary . and further to discover your spirit against those worthies in the army , you goe about to eclipse the glory of that famous victory at marston m●ore . for , speaking contemptuously of it , you say , some of the independents stood to it in the battle of yorke , when other of them run away ; for they ran as well as others ; and if they be not lyers , all the other independents had run away too , and left the field , if they had known what had happened in the other parts of the army . so you , with many other words of elevation , and slighting that party , by whose noble prowesse , and undaunted courage , god was pleased to give the victory , and even then when a great body of the army deserted the field . and whereas you say , they saw not the flight , else they would have fled too for company , if ( say you ) they be not lyers ; or if you say true . but i can produce those that were actors in that battle , and are no independents , that affirme , there was no running away at all , of those whose valour you so vilifie ; yea , though they did perceive how the matter went with some , as when a whole body flies , a thing with no great difficulty to be discerned . the rest of your vilifications so much exaggerated upon these men , are so nauseous , as every ingenuous reader will loath them . and notorious is that you say , as by experience , i know not any independent in england ( two onely excepted ) that doe not as maliciously and impla●ably hate the presbyterians , as the mortallest enemies they have in the world . now surely were all the presbyterians in england of your spirit , though the independents would not maliciously hate you , as presbyterians , yet cause you would give them sufficient to beware of you , as of their mortallest enemies in the world . and you boldly conclude , saying ; it is a meere faction , and the most pharisaicall , proud , envious , and malicious sect , that ever sprung up ; doing all out of an arrogant faction ; as cunning as gypsies , &c. now the lord rebuke the rayling rabshakees . pag. 4. he commends the kings cavaliers for brave gentlemen ; and he found more favour ( which he doth ever acknowledge for a singular courtesie ) then ever he found from protestant gaolers . was it that you discovered unto them some of that bitternesse of spirit against the independents , or some courtly compliance with papists , preferring them before independents or protestants , that made those popish cavaliers so much to applaud you ? but doe the independents accuse your booke , as worthy to be burnt by the common hangman , and that you are crased in your braine ? surely , there is so much fire in the bowels of your booke , ( as in the trojan horse ) that a wonder it is , it hath not all this while set it selfe on fire , & with it selfe ( like that tongue in james 3. ) the whole frame of nature . and for your braine , you may doe well to use your physicall inspection . page 7. neither have i ( say you ) forgot , that i was a sufferer , or am now a persecutor of the saints , as they calumniate mee . it were well if you would forget & forgoe to be a persecutor of the saints , and that upon your repentance god would forgive you , as those saints are ready to doe . there is no greater persecution , then that of the tongue and pen , sharper then swords and speares . no sorer persecution then esaus scoffs , and the jewes tongue-smitings . but most transcendent from a brother , a companion in tribulations , a familiar friend . et tu brute ? and yet all your scoffs and hard speeches , and bitter reproachings of those , whom you must needs confesse to be saints , will not amount to the least item of persecution . that were pitie . what thinke you of the like speech the late prelate of canterbury used in his * booke to the king ? god forbid ( saith he ) that i should perswade persecution in any kinde , or practise it in the least . did this protestation ( trow you ) cleare him from being a notorious , yea , unparalleld persecutor ? witnesse both your eares and mine . but you doe but oppose the saints heresies and novelties in religion . but must that needs be heresie , which you account heresie ? or that noveltie , which appeares so to those that measure things rather by custome , then truth ? and doe you not no lesse oppose , vilifie , disgrace , jeare , and scoffe at their persons ? doe you not call them * beasts ? * grolls ? puffoists ? wild geese ? old geese ? a company of jugglers ? sticklers against parliament and presbytery ? a generation of cunning and crafty jugglers ? cunning deceivers ? and fighters against god ? violaters of all the lawes of god and nature ? the most dangerous sect that ever yet the world produced ? a company of ratts among joyn'd stooles ? despisers of magistracy ? a generation of men , not worthy to give guts to a beare ? moone-calves ? all the independents put together , have not so much learning as any one of a thousand other ministers ? a wheele-barrow ( such as they trundle white-wine-vinegar on ) fitter for them then a coach ? stirring up all along magistrates and people to cut them off ? making them odious to the scots ? speaking nothing but daggers , and daring ? and what not ? now is all this no opposing of the persons of those you call independents ? to conclude all : you tell us a story of some that fight against their christian brethren ; and to that end in the frontispices of their books set downe christs words , mat. 10. 34 , 35 , 36. thinke not that i am come to send peace on the earth ; i came not to send peace , but a sword , &c. well : what of this ? out of which words , misunderstood ( say you ) they would perswade the people , and make them believe , that they have good warrant and ground to fight against their christian brethren , for the maintenance of their owne whimsies . but brother , who is this you speake of ? who hath done thus ? they ? what they ? you put it in the plurall , in their frontispices . you know , dolosus v●rsatur in universalibus . but is it in any more then one onely frontispice ? and have more then one done it ? and what one ? you describe him ( pag. 44. ) as not knowing his name , but one who is no novice , younker , and fresh-water souldier , but a grave man with a great white basket-hilted beard . why , brother , what needed all these periphrases and circumlocutions ? you might much more honestly , ingenuously , and candidly have said , my brother burton , then thus slily and disgracefully to take him by the beard , or serpent-like , to come behind him , and bite him by the heele . but this is not all . how comes it , that you fasten upon your brother such a false glosse , as that he should perswade the people , and make them believe , that from christs words , they have good warrant and ground to fight against their christian brethren ? brother , i must needs here challenge you of extreame violation , not onely of brotherly charitie , but even of the lawes of common humanitie . doe you ( out of no other ground but meere malice , as all the world must needs judge ) hatch a cockatrice-egge , a senselesse , whimsie in your own braine , and then lay your dead childe by mee , and take my living childe from mee , as you have done , in framing your own false sense , and putting it for mine , and taking my true sense , and making it your owne ? brother , what 's become , i say not of your brotherhood , but of your manhood ? or did you thinke to cover your selfe with your owne cobweb , that the palpable nakedness of your shiftless and shameless affront should not be seene ? surely , this is enough , not onely to discover the hollow of your heart , but the shallow of your braine , and to bring in the verdict of the whole universe , that you are a man , not onely whose heart is divided , but whose head is , &c. salve it as you can . now the lord jesus christ reprove you for this , and give you repentance for this your more then unnaturall dealing , that i may not say diabolicall , certainly not christian , even your best friends being judges . and for the grollery and dotage you put upon your brother , ( ibid. and pag. 45. ) as abusing the scripture , when your self most grossely abuse both it and him ; assure your self , your brother is not yet come to that dotage , but for all your vauntings on your part , and vilifying of his , he dare , through the help of christ , deale with dr. bastwick hand to hand , as neither admiring your learning , nor envying your roman buff , wherein your chief strength most lyeth , except in your scoffing , scurrilous , malicious bitter biting ; yea , bloody language , in which faculty , as facile princeps , you do so tripudiate and glory . but in your last book , which you style ( but how justly ) a just defence , &c. you would seem to teach us another rule to walk by , which it seems you had not then learned , when you writ your postscript : we ought not ( say you ) per latus unius totam gentem perstringere ▪ you tel the liev. colonel , that he should not have condemned the whole councel for a few , but should have singled them out , and by name have aspersed them ▪ and why did not you then rather call me by my name , as your brother burton ( as our brother prynne hath done ) then to hale me out by my great white basket-hilted beard , as some hideous monster , or ridiculous spectacle to the world ? and whereas ( ibid. ) you adde , that you have written nothing in your books against the independents , wherein you can be convinced of a lie : for ( say you ) i write nothing in my books against the independents , but what upon my own knowledge i can affirm to be true , yea , depose it too . now to go no further then this one instance of your dealing with mee ( aliâs your brother ) in fathering upon mee such a damnable and diabolicall glosse , being the spurious brat of your own brain ; what say you ? do you know it of your own knowledge to be so , that because i set that scripture in the front of my book , therefore my meaning was , hereby to perswade the people , and make them believe , that they have good warrant and ground to fight against their christian brethren for the maintenance of their own whimsies ? they be your own words , and you may take the whimsies in to boot . now , did i ever so perswade the people , or make them believe so ? nay , i will put it to your own conscience ( as hoping you have so much left ) whether in your conscience you can so much as once imagine , that your brother could ever have the least thought that way , or the least word tending thereunto ; wherein i challenge that , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the accuser of the brethren himself , whose scholar i wish not you to be . as for that other passage of your said book ( pag. 39. ) to let passe many other ; as touching your independent-pastor , it is as false as slie , do you and your reverend brother try it when you will . an appendix . wherein is touched the main point of difference between the two parties , classicall or nationall , and congregationall : our brother , mr. william pryn , whose latter books ( truth triumphing , &c. and a fresh discovery , &c. ) i have meerly ( god is my record ) out of tendernesse to the present state of things , forborn to answer , hath sundry times in those books objected principally those words in my vindication , concerning christs kingly office over the churches and consciences of his people : as in truth triumphing , pag. 112 , 113. and in his fresh discovery , pag. 4. in these words , mr. henry burton , in his vindication of churches , commonly called independent , &c. the church is a spirituall kingdome , whose only king is christ , and not man ; it is a spirituall republique , whose only law-giver is christ , and not man : a spirituall house , whose only builder and governour is christ : a spirituall corporation , whose only head is christ , and not man . no man , or power on earth , hath a kingly power over this kingdome ; no earthly law-giver may give lawes for the government of this republique ; no man can , or ought , to undertake the government of this communion of saints ; no humane power or law may intermeddle to prescribe rules for the government or form of this spirituall house , not covncels , not senates . this is christs royall prerogative , which is uncommunicable to any , to all the powers on earth . he addes my words , pag. 60 , 61. wee challenge you to shew us any parliament , councel , synod , ever since the apostles , that could , or can say thus , it seemed good to the holy ghost and us , so to determine controversies of religion , to make and impose canons to bind all men , &c. shew this to us at this time , and wee will obey . but if you cannot , as you never can , never let any man presse upon us that scripture , that synod , ( acts 15. ) which hath no parallel in the whole world ; and so is no precedent or pattern for any councels , synods , parliaments . thus our brother sees down the words , here and there with capitalls , as if so many capitall crimes . but the worst of all is , that he ranks them under the head of his first section , containing divers seditious , scandalous , libellous passages against the authority and jurisdiction of parliaments , synods , and temporall magistrates in generall , in ecclesiasticall affaires , in the late writings of severall independent new-lights , and firebrands ; so runs the title of the section , under which hee marshals those my words , as if christ could not be sole king , lord , and law-giver over his own spirituall kingdome in the soules and assemblies of his saints , but this doctrine must needs be seditious , scandalous , and the writers thereof libellous , against civill authority , yea , firebrands , and what not ? how more equall was the heathen emperor domitian , though the author of the second persecution , who though he laboured utterly to extirpate and extinguish all the naturall kindred of christ , because hee heard that christ was a king , fearing thereby the overthrow of his empire ; yet understanding afterward , by two of christs neerest kinsmen brought before him , being but poor men , and who got their living by hard labour in husbandrie , how that christ was a king indeed , but his kingdome was not of this world , but heavenly : the emperor hereupon , ( as the story saith ) {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , ceased the persecution against the church , by calling in his imperiall decree . i wish our brother would more seriously consider , not only of this famous example of an heathen emperour , but also upon what sound reason it is grounded : as namely , upon such a distinct specificall difference between these two kingdomes , the celestiall and the terrestriall , as that in no sort they may be confounded , or compounded into one terrene kingdome , unlesse you will set up a papall power , an harmophrodite-government , with ecce duo gladii hîc , behold here two swords , which the pope caused to be carryed before him in solemn procession the two first dayes of his new erected jubilee . and for my challenge alledged by him , it stands good still , till hee can prove those words , in the end of his truth triumphing , true , where your words are , we cannot but in christian charity expect and believe , that all the assembly and parliament resolve on , may have inscribed on its front , it seemed good to the holy ghost and vs . and then again , you must prove your reason good , whereupon you inferre this conclusion ; namely , because there be in the parliament and assembly , at least some true nathaniels and stephens , filled with the holy ghost , and so many armies of prayers in the spirit daily sent up to heaven , to bring down that spirit of truth upon them . but can a few , at least some nathaniels , among so many , carry the matters by vote , if they be many that contra-vote ? you know things go sometimes in councels , rather by number then weight , rather by tale , then truth . i doubt , whether if the true nathaniels and zealous stephens should bear the sway , it would not well please , at least our brother bastwicks palate , who altogether condemneth gamaliel and his counsell , whereby hee perswaded and swayed the whole synedrion to refrain from peter and john , for peaching christ , saving only that they escaped not a scourging . for further answer to my dear brother , i shall forbeare till a fitter season . in the mean time , i shall conclude with the words of my brother bastwick , which hee delivers as the confession of the faith of the church of england , concerning christs kingly office ; and so consequently of his own faith . that jesus christ is the only and sole king , and governour of the whole universe , to whom all power in heaven and earth is given , matth. 28. but more especially of his church , who by god himselfe was set king over his holy mountain , psal. 2. 6. and that hee is king of righteousnesse , hebr. 7. the king eternall , isai. 9. the king of kings , and lord of lords , apoc. 17. and that he doth by his mighty power and wisdome , uphold and govern all things , but with a more peculiar care , and a more speciall manner preserve and defend his church , 1 tim. 4. 10. as that which hee hath purchased with his precious blood , and by his power redeemed out of the captivity and slavery of satan ; and that he is the head of his church , which is the body , who infuseth life into it ; righteousnesse , peace , joy , happinesse , and all the graces of wisdome and knowledge of god with certainty and assurance of his love ; and that his kingdome and empire is a spirituall and heavenly kingdome , no terrene and fading monarchy , joh. 18. 38. luke 1. 33. and is upheld and governed only by the scepter of his spirit and word , and not by the authority , vertue or wisdome of any humane power . thus dr. bastwick , and that after all his bitter reproaches cast upon his independents , who hang all that which he calls independency upon this sole hinge ; namely , that christs kingdome and empire , is a spirituall and heavenly kingdome , no terrene and fading monarchy ; and is upheld and governed only by the scepter of his spirit and word , and not by the authority , vertue or wisdome of any humane power . now if dr. bastwick will hold to his words and writing , he must needs confesse , that christ is no titular or pageant prince ( as before ) but reall and indeed : and therefore his kingdome is not to be governed according to the various and variable laws and customes of earthly kingdomes , common-wealths , countries ; but by the only scepter of his spirit and word ; otherwise the spirituall kingdome and the temporall must be confounded together , and become one kingdome , and then must either the spirituall become terrene and transitory , or else the temporall become eternall , and so make up one babylan , roma aetern● , confusion and blasphemy . and for a close , to satisfie my brother prynnes question , what i mean by so much asserting christs kingly office , as sole head , governour , law-giver of his churches , i mean , hee is the sole immediate king . and the proofs are from solid scripture , the sole rule of faith : as isai. 8. 20. and 29. 13. hos. 5. 11. matth. 15. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9. mar. 7. 7. and our brother confesseth these scriptures but in part , by joyning thereto the laws and customes of kingdoms and common-weals , as a partiall rule , if not rather paramount to the sacred , canon ; as rome acknowledgeth the scripture to be the rule of faith , but partiall , joyning thereto her own traditions ; and so ● thereby , as the pharisees of old , make the word of god of no effect , through humane traditions , lawes , decrees , customes , manners of men , prince and people , protestants and papists , as well under queen mary and her parliament , as under queen elizabeth and hers ; and so regis ad exemplum : as the prince and pope , or state is affected , well or ill , christs kingdome , must chameleon-like , change both complexion and constitution . and if this satisfie not my brother , let him be pleased to reade over my vindication once again , wherein he may cleerly see , how the scripture all along sets up christ as the only governour and law-giver of his church , excluding all humane wisdome and power , from intermeddling in the regulating of his kingdome , by mans lesbian rule . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a78034e-390 2 sam. 20. 9 , 10. * see the postscript , pag. 44. prov. 20. 29. & 16. 31. * jude 5. rev. 12. 1. pag. 16. pag. 18. cicer. orat. pro l. murena . act. 24. 25 , 26 joh. 18. 28. mat. 10. 17 , 18 pag. 8. 1 cor. 14. 33 ▪ platina : in vita bonifacii 3. * 1. cor. 12. page 98. to the second question . page 14. psal. 18. acts 3. 22 ▪ acts 2. * esa. 56. 3. turpius ejicitur , quàm non admittitur bospes . page 100 1 cor. 1. 2. page 105. acts 10. page 115. homily , second sermon for whitsunday . page 118. * 1 cor. 5. 4. 1 sam. 19. acts 19. 2. * act. 5. 28. ibid. * page 139. * page 144. * page 149. page 149. * isa. 58. 2. postsc . page 68. ibid. pag. 68. ibid. ibid. psal. 57. 4. jer. 18. 18. gal. 4. * relation of a conference . epist. dedic. ibid. defence , pag 4. * postsc . 41. * postsc . 12. 32. 34. 36. 38. page 54. ibid. 58. defence p. 30 postsc . 61. pag. 66. 69. pag. 43 , 44 , 45. page 21. page ibid. postscript , pag. 43 , 44. rev. 12. 10. eusebius eccles. hist. bon face 8. acts 15. * d. b. in his independency not gods ordinance , p. 149. acts 5. 38 , 39 , 40 , 31. a copy of a remonstrance lately delivered in to the assembly by thomas goodwin, ierem. burroughs, william greenhill, william bridge, philip nie, sidrach simson, and william carter declaring the grounds and reasons of their declining to bring into the assembly their modell of church-government. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a34501 of text r265 in the english short title catalog (wing c6189). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 16 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a34501 wing c6189 estc r265 12685804 ocm 12685804 65766 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a34501) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 65766) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 978:16) a copy of a remonstrance lately delivered in to the assembly by thomas goodwin, ierem. burroughs, william greenhill, william bridge, philip nie, sidrach simson, and william carter declaring the grounds and reasons of their declining to bring into the assembly their modell of church-government. goodwin, thomas, 1600-1680. burroughs, jeremiah, 1599-1646. greenhill, william, 1591-1671. bridge, william, 1600?-1670. nye, philip, 1596?-1672. simpson, sidrach, 1600?-1655. carter, w. (william) 8 p. [s.n.], london : 1645. reproduction of original in the university of illinois (urbana-champaign campus). library. eng church polity. a34501 r265 (wing c6189). civilwar no a copy of a remonstrance lately delivered in to the assembly. by thomas goodwin. ierem: burroughs. william greenhill. william bridge. philip [no entry] 1645 2787 5 0 0 0 0 0 18 c the rate of 18 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2006-04 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2006-05 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2006-09 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2006-09 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2007-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a copy of a remonstrance lately delivered in to the assembly . by thomas goodwin . ierem : burroughs . william greenhill . william bridge . philip nie . sidrach simson . and william carter . declaring the grounds and reasons of their declining to bring in to the assembly , their modell of church-government . london : printed in the yeer , 1645. to the reader . the copie of this ensuing remonstrance ( for so i title it , as deeming it no other ) lately delivered in to the assembly by the dissenting brethren , falling under my view ( by a divine providence ) i endeavoured a transcript thereof , ayming at no other end but the reserving it by me for my private and particular satisfaction . since which time upon occasionall converses with divers of the presbyterian party , i have been an often eare-witnesse of many untrue and unjust aspersions which reflected upon the reverend authors , as if the independants ( so they are pleased to call them ) could not , or durst not ( according to the demand of the assembly ) produce a model and bring in thither , such a frame of church-government with the reasons and grounds thereof as they contend for ; or rather , that they had in their conceptions some chima●ra , or some utopian frame , which in the issue would prove either abortive or ridiculous ; and that therefore being privy to the weaknes of their own principles , they have res●●ted onely , instead of a perfect body , an airy , and ( to use some of their own words ) a rayling accusation against the reverend assembly , intending nothing lesse then the product of a compleated frame , and nothing more than the cheating of the people , whom they know do expect such an accomplisht platform . these and the like undue bespatterings , ●asht from the mouthes of some whom i dare not but call brethren , and that upon those who for their personall endowments they themselves acknowledge to be both pious and learned ; and frequently hinted into the minds and thoughts of the godly and well-affected of either part ( who at present by reason thereof are at a losse both in their judgements and expectations ) coming within my hearing and observation ; i found ( weighing the rationall considerations exhibited in this remonstrance for their refusall to deliver in to the assembly their model of church-government , as was imposed on them ) an irresistable dictate from my conscience , to convert the manuscript into a printed copie . wherein the ingenious reader may clearly perceive , and truly judge what was the direct remora that deterred them ( contrary to their primary resolves ) from doing that which was required by the assembly , and what likewise are their reall intentions for the future , namely , to let the churches have the benefit of what they have prepared to that purpose , which i am confident in as convenient a time as is sutable to such a work , they will perfect and exhibit to open view . as for the godly and learned authors themselves , i humbly crave their pardon that i have presumed without their knowledge to present this their copie to the world , professing that no sinister ends at all byassed me : 't was onely the satisfying of my own conscience , and my earnest desires that the truth and candour of their cause , and their proceedings therein , may ( notwithstanding the besmearings that others endeavour to cast on both ) be rightly resented by the godly and judicious , that hath swayed my resolutions : which ends if i attain , i have enough . december 12. 1644. we gave in reasons of our dissenting , to this assembly , against the subordination of synods , and they were committed to be answered and brought in . april 4. 1645. an order was made by this assembly , that the brethren of this assembly , who have formerly entred their dissents to the presbyteriall government , shall be a committee to bring in the whole frame of their judgements , concerning church government , in a body with their grounds and reasons . it was also by this assembly , lately imposed on us , to make report of what we had done in the committee . how willing and ready we have been from the beginning of the discussions in this reverend assembly , to make known whatever we hold , concerning church government , as we have had publique testimony in this assembly , so we have manifold instances and evidences of it ; witnesse that constant , free , and open expressing our selves upon all occasions , and in all questions propounded to the debate , with offers to give an open account at any time , in what ever should be asked us by any brother . our profferring divers times to bring in propositions , stated to our sense for the dispute , and when we were made a committee to that purpose , in the point of ordination , and did bring our judgements concerning it for a dispute , it was laid aside . and at another time , when we ourselves brought in papers , giving the state of the question , about that extraordinary way of ordination , which were read , and returned back unto us , it being publiquely professed that that was not an allowed way and course of this assembly , for any of the brethren to bring in papers , unlesse they were made a committee by the assembly it self . and so we were prevented of doing the like for time to come . likewise our frequent complainings of the stating of questions , so that we could not fully argue for our judgements , we being bound up to the questions as stated by you . the usuall answer to our complaints heerin being , that the assembly sate not to argue the opinions of a few men , but that if we had any thing to say to the assertion brought in , we might . as also our earnest contending to have some questions ( which you all know are the greatest and most fundamentall points ) fairly disputed and debated , is a sufficient testimony of this our willingnesse . as in the entrance into the dispute of government , the first day , we pressed the handling of this , that there is a platform of government for the churches , under the gospel , laid down in the scripture , and desired to have discussed , what are the sure and certain wayes , whereby we may judge what of government , is held forth jure divino therein , which should have been fundamentall to all the disputes that were to follow : and this was professedly laid aside by you , which therfore in none of the subsequent debates , we could renew , and thus arguments were cut off , it being that great and necessary medium , by which the particulars should be confirmed , and in a manner , the whole controversie decided ; the greatest difference that were likely to grow betwixt us , being this , that the forms of government , you pretend to , and we deny , are asserted to be jure divino . in like manner that other next great question , about the intire power in congregations , that have a sufficient presbytery for all censures , which as it is in order the first that presents it self for discussion ( as was urged ) so also it is one of the greatest points in difference betwixt us and you : yet the debate of this was not onely denied the first place in the dispute , but was to this day declined by you ; although to have it argued was contended for by us , and not by us onely , but by many of those , that are for a subordinate government thereof to synods . and though earnest desires and motions for it were renewed and inculcated , yet were they as often laid aside . yea and this , although it was once expresly commended by the grand committee of the honorable members of both houses , joyned with twelve divines of the assembly , to be next disputed , as the best means , both of expedition , and of ending the controversie . and over and above all this , to argue this our willingnesse to dispute our way , in the aforesaid honorable committee appointed by an order of the honorable house of commons , to find out wayes , of accommodating different judgements in the assembly , the sub-committee of divines , consisting of two of us , and foure others , appointed by that honorable committee to prepare waies and propositions of accommodation , brought in the main and most of what practically we desired , and we therein added , that if such a libertie shall seem in the wisdome of this honorable committee , to be so prejudiciall to the peace of the church as not to be permitted , we humbly desire , the doctrinall principles wherein we differ about church-government , may be taken into serious consideration , and some other way of accommodation in practise thought upon , as shall seem fit to this honorable committee : and this was presented to that honorable committee and those twelve of the assembly , to be transmitted , whether to the honorable houses , or the assembly as they should think meet . after this , when upon occasion of something brought in by one brother , and intertained , we took hold of that example , and one of us , with consent of the rest , brought in seven propositions , which contained matter of difference betwixt us , professing , that if this reverend assembly would debate them , or any one of them , we would bring in more , untill we had brought in all the frame , and the assembly themselves should pick and chuse what they would debate , and what not . but these propositions were rejected with a refusall to debate any one of them . and after all this , though the main parts of the presbyteriall government , had been then voted by the assembly , and sent up to the honorable houses ( as , namely , that about ordination , and the presbyteriall government over many congregations , as also concerning the subordination of nationall , provinciall and classicall assemblies ) and there was not much remaining about church-government , to be concluded in this assembly : yet this reverend assembly requiring , ( by occasion of a book published , that reflected on these proceedings , that we had no hand in , nor knowledge of ) a whole frame of government , with the grounds and reasons thereof , to be brought in by us , and voted us heerto to be a committee , we yeilded our selves to be a committee , to bring in part by part , in like manner as the presbyteriall government was brought into the assembly , and disputed : but that was not accepted . and then it being said , that there was something in church-government , remaining undiscussed , and unresolved ; and it being further alledged that the assembly ●ad not sent up all that which they had concluded , but meant to present an entire frame and body to the honorable houses : and that we might take away all occasions of any such jealousies that we were unwilling to discover what we held ( which were commonly in mens mouthes abroad ) we yeilded to be a committee , to bring in the whole to this assembly , though upon all the fore-mentioned disadvantages , and were purposed and resolved amongst our selves so to do , and that in as convenient a time as a work of such a compasse could , ( in such a manner as was proposed by you ) be dispatched by us . and as in the debate about making us a committee , the assembly would not declare ( though pressed by us ) what they would do with that modell , and those reasons we should bring in ; so the voting of what yet remained in church-government , was hastened by you . and when not long after , upon occasion of the debate of one particular point , in which we differed from this assembly , we moved it might be deferred , because we should present our judgements and reasons about it , with the rest , ( for therein lay that which we accounted the favour of being made a committee by you ) it was publiquely answered , that therefore the assembly should the rather go on to the concluding of it , because we intended to bring it in ; and before we could dispatch that body we intended , so as to report it unto you according to your order ; ( the collection of the materials whereof , spent us two or three moneths , and we could not obtain the liberty to bring in any thing but the whole ) this assembly had presented to the honorable houses , as well what had been sent up by peeces afore , as what was since concluded , in one intire frame . by all which we perceived , that that which was the main end and use of presenting such a modell to this assembly , would be frustrated . and furthermore , we having given in ( as this assembly knows ) but two heads of dissenting reasons : the one against the presbyterial government over many congregations : the other against the subordination of synods . by the successe of the latter we see , that this assembly can assume the liberty ( if it so please ) to reserve those we shall now present , unanswered , as they have done those our dissenting reasons against subordination of synods , although it contain a great and main part of that wherein we differ , as also is of all other , of the greatest moment , both to this church and state , and hath been given in to this assembly ten moneths since , and their votes concerning thes● subordinations , as long since presented to the honorable houses , but have not been answered by any reply brought in to this assembly , and so not ready to have been sent up to the honorable houses . and if these we might now bring in , should be undertaken to be answered by this assembly , yet we still retain the sense of so much remedilesse prejudice , by being bound from replying again , as doth make us justly wary : we may for ever lie under whatever misinterpretations may happen , ( suppose but through mistake of yours , or imperfection of our expression ) without clearing our meaning , and we may be bound up from further urging or driving home that wherein the strength of any argument lies , if the dint thereof should be avoided by some specious diversion . and although our former reasons given in after dispute to both the honorable houses , according to their order , were therefore not our own , but to be disposed of according to their appointment ; yet what we should now give in , we conceive to be in our own power . upon these considerations we think that this assembly hath no cause now to require a report of us , nor will that our report be of any use , seeing that reports are for debates , and debates are for results to be sent up to the honorable houses , who have already voted another form of government then what we shall present . however it may be of more use some other way , which by this course may be prevented , and therefore we are resolved to wait for some further opportunitie , to improve what we have prepared . finis . right reformation: or, the reformation of the church of the new testament, represented in gospell-light. in a sermon preached to the honourable house of commons, on wednesday, november 25. 1646. together with a reply to the chief contradictions of master love's sermon, preached the same day. all published for the good of the faithfull, at their desire. / by william dell, minister of the gospel, attending on his excellency sir thomas fairfax. dell, william, d. 1664. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a82317 of text r201227 in the english short title catalog (thomason e363_2 e363_3). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 135 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 31 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a82317 wing d927 thomason e363_2 thomason e363_3 estc r201227 99861758 99861758 130548 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a82317) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 130548) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 58:e363[2] or 58:e363[3]) right reformation: or, the reformation of the church of the new testament, represented in gospell-light. in a sermon preached to the honourable house of commons, on wednesday, november 25. 1646. together with a reply to the chief contradictions of master love's sermon, preached the same day. all published for the good of the faithfull, at their desire. / by william dell, minister of the gospel, attending on his excellency sir thomas fairfax. dell, william, d. 1664. [16], 42 p. printed by r. white, for giles calvert, at the black-spred-eagle, near the west end of pauls., london, : 1646. in two parts. part 2, "a reply to mr. love's contradictions", has a caption title; pagination and register are continuous; love, in his "short and plaine animadversions" (wing l3174) calls this part "an unlicensed pamphlet". part 2 = thomason e.363[3]. reproduction of the original in the british library. eng love, christopher, 1618-1651 -early works to 1800. bible. -n.t. -hebrews ix, 10 -sermons. sermons, english -17th century. church polity -sermons -early works to 1800. a82317 r201227 (thomason e363_2 e363_3). civilwar no right reformation: or, the reformation of the church of the new testament, represented in gospell-light.: in a sermon preached to the honou dell, william 1646 20494 19 15 0 0 0 0 17 c the rate of 17 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-04 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-06 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-04 elspeth healey sampled and proofread 2008-04 elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion right reformation : or , the reformation of the church of the new testament , represented in gospel-ljght . in a sermon preached to the honourable house of commons , on wednesday , november 25. 1646. together with a reply to the chief contradictions of master love's sermon , preached the same day . all published for the good of the faithfull , at their desire . by william dell , minister of the gospel , attending on his excellency sir thomas fairfax . iohn 7. 12. and there was much murmuring among the people concerning him ; for some said , he is a good man , others said nay , but he deceiveth the people . iohn 16. 3. and these things will they do unto you , because they have not known the father , nor me . credo me theologum esse christianum , & in regno veritatis vivere ; ideo me debitorem esse , non modo affirmandae veritatis , sedetiam asserendae , & defendendae , seu per sanguinem , seu per mortem . luther . london , printed by r. white , for giles calvert , at the black-spred-eagle , near the west end of pauls . 1646. to the honovrable the commons assembled in parliament . honourable and worthy , as the lord represented these truths to you before , in the ministery of the word ; so now again , he offers them to your second consideration , in this printed book ; because he hath a minde , you should take notice of them . and i must needs say , it is the lord's voyce to you ; and i hope he will move your hearts , to regard it ; though satan hath mightily bestirr'd himself , by casting an ill vizzard upon the truth , to make you dislike it . but if you like christ the worse for a face spit on and buffeted , you may want a saviour : and if you like the truth of christ the worse for a scratcht face , you may make your dwelling place , with errour & humane doctrines , wch are all one . micaiah had no sooner delivered the truth of god , but there was a false prophet , to smite him on the face : the lord no sooner prepares instruments to reveale his truth , but satan hath his instruments , ready to turn the truth of god into a lye . and this god suffers to be done , to exercise your skill and wisdome , that you might learn , not to be offended at the truth with the world ; but to receive and love the truth , notwithstanding all the indignities and reproaches of men . when you reade what you have heard , you must needs acknowledge it to be the minde of god , if you received the anointing of the spirit : and the truth herein contained , shall prevaile with all that belong to god . for my part ; i am not carefull touching the successe of it , i can trust god with that , whose word it is . for , as the doctrine of the world , hath the weak power of the world to carry on that ; so the doctrine of iesus christ , hath the mighty power of god to carry on that ; and the power of god in the world shall as soon be made void , as the true doctrine of the gospel , though called errour , heresie , & schisme , and have all the misguises of hell put upon it . the truth you then heard delivered , and may here reade again , shall carry all opposition , and opposers before it , and none shall be able to stand against it , that ingage against it : and of this , both your selves and this generation shall be witnesses . if any think that i gave too much power to christ , in the reforming of the church , his own body ; let them consider again , that too much cannot be given to christ in gods kingdome , seeing he is all in all in it . neither is that exaltation the gospel gives to christ in this businesse , any diminution to your selves : neither by making christ all in the kingdome of god , are you made ever the lesse , in the kingdomes of this world . but what ever power the word of god hath given you , i will deny you none of it ; nay , i will be among the first , that shall attribute it to you . and do desire , you would no more any of you be displeased for attributing the reformation of the church , to christ alone , then the redemption , iustification , sanctification , or glorification of it , to christ alone : the former being every whit , as great and glorious a work of christ , as the latter . i do most willingly allow you your thrones in the kingdoms of this world , but only desire to reserve to christ his own throne in the kingdome of god . there are those indeed that would lift you up to this throne , not because they would have you sit there , but place them there : they would ascribe to you , the power only due to the sonne of god , not because they would have you use it , but would use it themselves ; they would derive power from you , to do that , which they say you cannot do : and the power they attribute to you in the things of god , they say , is not well in your hands , but in theirs . and here i would desire you , to take notice of the working of the mysterie of iniquity , from the head , to the very little-toes of the man of sinne : at first you know the pope interested himself in the emperour , and powers of the world ( for his own advantage and support no doubt , rather then for theirs ) after , the prelates successively , said to worldly kings , lend us your power , and we will lend you ours ; let our spiritual power deale in temporal things , and your temporal power shall deale in spirituall things : and still the clergy-power ( which call'd it self spiritual ) so linkt it self with the temporal , that the power that was not of god , might be upheld , by the power that was of god ; and ( having got this advantage ) they cried , destroy one , destroy both ; and so the prelates were wont to say , no bishop , no king . and their successors in the kingdome of antichrist still cry , no minister , no magistrate ; and so still mingle interests and powers with the civil magistrate ; that under the magistrate , the power of god , they might cunningly shrowd that power that is not of god . and thus they still , under the name of the magistrate , seek themselves , and the drawing of that power that is only his , from him to themselves , to whom it doth not belong : being , in the mean time , really against magistracy , further then it is serviceable to their own ends . whereas , we reckon magistracy , not lesse magistracy , no lesse the ordinance of god , though we suffer under it , and by it . this clergie-antichristian power where ever it is , will still sit upon the power of the nation ; the power of antichrist , so domineering over the powers of the world , that none but the power of christ can cast it off . that will still be uppermost , what power soever is supream . besides all the experience of former ages ( which is the greatest wonder in the world , that men consider not ) god gives you sparklings enough of it , in this age ; some preaching , that the government of the church ( which they make outward and visible , and over mens estates , bodies , and lives , ) belongs not to king nor parliament , but to the ministers and their elders : and better it is , there should be no government at all ( say they ) then not in their hands by whom it should be . and here lyes the mysterie of iniquity in this , that they make the whole kingdome a church , and then require a power , authority and jurisdiction in their church-kingdome , which the magistrate is not to deale withall , but themselves . whereas we acknowledge the whole power of the kingdome , to belong to the magistrate , and onely give unto christ the power of his own kingdome , which is not of the world , but spirituall and heavenly . and here also , fully to deliver my selfe from misapprehensions , i understand not by the church of christ , any company of men whatsoever , who under the notion of a church or saints , or any other title , may pleade priviledge or exemption of their lives , liberties , or estates , from the power of the civil magistrate ; for that were to justifie the papal , prelatical , or any other government of a newer name , which under pretence of ius divinum , shall set up and exercise an outward and visible power and jurisdiction , free and exempted from the authority and power of the civil magistrate ; which i utterly both deny and detest , as antichristian . and therefore , i humbly represent , how prejudiciall this may prove to you in the end , to suffer a generation of men in the kingdome , under the name either of church or clergie , whose power , preferment , and interest is different and excentricall from the power , welfare , and interest of the kingdome ; and what a ballance they may prove against the state , where they live , in turning and tumultuous times , as they themselves know , so ( i hope ) you clearly perceive it , as well as they . how they already dare lift up the head against you , who sees not ? how do they manifest their discontents against you , in pamphlets and pulpits , in their sermons and prayers , because you have not setled the government , they have studied out for you , as ius divinum , and the certain and unchangeable minde of god ; though they can neither make it out , to your selves , nor to any body else , by the word , that it is so . and how do they labour to instill , into the people , their own discontents ; perswading them , you have done nothing at all , because you have not done all that ever they would have you do , though you can see neither scripture nor reason for it . and for this cause , rendering you every where odious to the people . many other things besides , do they scramble up , and use against you , which they conceive may make for your disadvantage , and dis-interest in the people : because they think , they shall never get much higher , except they make you a little lower ; for they must ( according to the law of antichrist ) set their feet on your power , to get up to their own . some discoveries of this spirit you might see in mr. loves sermon , telling you before your faces , and before the people ; that some call'd you a mungrell parliament : indeed the king ( as i understand ) call'd the parliament at oxford so , but mr. love was the first ( for ought i can learne ) that ever named you so , and i wish he may be the last , ( but any doctrine is orthodox , out of a mans mouth of his order ) farther threatning you with a discerning people , to look into your actions , and to spy out your boundlesse priviledges ; as if you must do justice , not out of the love of righteousnesse , but out of fear of mr. loves discerning people . telling you also , the clergie had done as much service for you in their pulpits , as your regiments in the field : that by this means he might minde you , what they can do against you , as well as for you , if you be not servants to their designes ; for they that have heretofore been for you , can ( if they please ) turn to others against you , who shall be more for themselves . and in many other things flying out against your worthy commanders in the army , upon suspitions of his own ; and against the articles at oxford , &c. for it is no proper presbyterial doctrine , that does not ( at least ) meddle with the affairs of the state , which in time they may hopefully come to order . in these and divers other things , he took his full swinge , all of them ( no doubt ) deeply appertaining to the mysterie of the gospel . the other things , he spake , to the disadvantage of the ignorant and weak , and neither to the truths disadvantage , nor mine , i shall clear in a short reply , set after the discourse ; and so shall trouble you no farther , with any such stuffe , but only with a smart expression , from one ( it seems ) of some note in the assembly , who said , if the parliament approved mr. dells sermon , it were no blasphemy to say , they were no parliament . so that it seems you shall be no longer a parliament then you approve , what the assembly approves ; but the kingdome hopes you are built upon a better foundation . and to him ( who hath been so bold with you ) i shall only crave leave to reply in your presence : if the assembly ( which i hope they will not ) should condemne that doctrine of the gospel for the substance of it , delivered then by mr. dell ; it will be no blasphemy to say , they are the enemies of the truth of christ : and ( i hope ) the last prop of antichrist in the kingdome . for your selves , honourable and worthy , i beseech you consider , that god is wonderfull in counsel , and excellent in working ; and that all power is given to christ , in heaven and in earth , that he might give free passage to the gospel . and therefore take heed , after god hath blest your power and forces in the field , and subdued that malignant power that was against you , and hath given you a little peace and quietnesse in the kingdome ; you do not now begin your affaires with discountenancing , disrelishing , much lesse condemning , the faithfull and true word of god , witnessed in the scriptures , and confest to by the faithfull and martyrs of christ , in all ages ; and with the setting off from you , that ministery , that hath most of the spirit in it , lest the lord withdraw his presence from you , and your latter end be not answerable to your beginnings . it might be easily shewed unto you , how many great and wise kings and magistrates , acting according to humane wisdom and prudence , and despising or neglecting the wisdome of the word ; have with all their own wisdome , prudence , and designes , destroyed themselves , and their kingdomes : for it is written , he takes the wise in their own craftinesse : and again , the lord knowes the thoughts of men , that they are but vaine . and therefore renounce the wisdom of the world , with all its fleshly counsels , and cleave close to the true , faithfull , and sincere doctrine of the gospel ; and then , though you have many enemies and kingdomes against you , you shall not be moved , but god will yet establish you , in all the shakings of the world , and your enemies shall be as a thing of nought . i shall no longer detaine you , but only desire this , in the behalf of the faithful , gods peculiar portion in the kingdome , that you would not suffer us to be oppressed by our adversaries , who would use your power against us , not for you , but for themselves : neither would suffer them , thus publickly and shamelessely to call us sectaries and hereticks , who do believe and professe the truth of the gospel in sincerity and simplicity of heart , according to what we received from god ; but that you would suffer , yea , procure us , to live quietly and safely under you , in the faith and practice of the gospel , we in all things obeying you , as becomes christians . the remainder is , to assure you , that there is no man shall serve the state more sincerely , according to his place and calling ; nor in more faithfulness and humility tender the truth of god , either to your selves or the kingdome ( as occasion serves ) according to the measure of the gift of christ ; then , your servant in the gospel , vv. dell . to the reader . christian reader , the times we live in , are dangerous times ; it is dangerous to conceale the truth , and dangerous to publish the truth ; if we publish the truth , god hath taught us , and we have heard and lea●n'd from the father we fall into the hands of men ; if we conceale it , we fall into the hands of god . and therefore , in this case , in a contrary choice to david , i reckon it much better , to fall into the hands of men , then into the hands of god ; seeing the wrath of men can but reach the bodie ; but the wrath of god , bodie and soul . i shall therefore willingly confesse christ , amidst an adulterous and sinful generation , not doubting but christ will confesse me , before his father , and before his angels . and for the reproaches of men , it is best conquering them , as luther was wont to say , silendo & contemnendo , by silence and contempt of them , seeing a man may as easily restrain satan himself , in his various workings , as stop the mouthes of his instruments . and therefore it is good for us christians , to do the work of god , without so much as taking notice of such men : and if sometimes we are sensible of these things , because we are flesh , yet as we are christians , we are above them , in the spirit , and see already in certain saith and hope , all evils and enemies under our feet : and therefore for mr. love , and other men of the same mold and mettal , i am resolved neither now nor hereafter , to take them into any more consideration , then the businesse it self necessarily requires : and where they may be omitted , without prejudice to the truth , to let them quite alone : being every day , through the use of affliction enabled to patience , and through patience brought to experience , and so to a proportionable measure of hope : and this carries me above the shame of the world , in the strength of the love of god . for the doctrine contained in this discourse , thou shalt not finde it new light ( as some men slanderously affirme ) but the ancient light , that sprange forth in the first morning of the gospel , but was since obscured , by the new darknesse of antichrist , which these men love better then that old light , and will by no means exchange the one for the other . but this light , that now after a long night , breaks forth again , in some of its first glory , let these menset their hearts at rest , for they shal never be able to obscure it again ; and the fire of the spirit that god hath kindled in the kingdome , they shall never be able to quench , with any fire either of earth or hell . and therefore we fear them not , though they breathe forth threatnings now , and ere long , are like to breathe forth blood : for by all their subtile and industrious actings , in the end , they shall not work the truths ruine , but their own . and these , as well as their forefathers , of the same race and lineage , in whose stead they are now risen up , shall in due time become a reproach and a shame , and their name shall be for a curse to all gods chosen . reader , it is my earnest desire , that the lord would deliver thee from this new form of the mysterie of iniquity , which in every age puts on a severall form , when the old one is discovered by the light of the word . and in this present age , it is become , so exceeding cunning , and so furnished with all deceiveablenesse of unrighteousnesse , under the form of righteousnesse , that it seems to be the last and subtilest work of antichrist , that is now in hand ; and he that prevailes in this encounter , hath antichrist under his feet , for ever : but none are like to prevaile here , but the faithful and elect alone . and therefore hold fast that which thou hast , that no man take thy crowne ; and consider christs encouragement to this work , in the following verse ; [ him that overcommeth , will i make a pillar in the temple of my god , and he shall go no more out , and i will write upon him , the name of my god , and the name of the city of my god , which is , new ierusalem , which commeth down out of heaven from my god , and i will write upon him , my new name . ] christian reader , i commit thee , and the word now offered to thee , in this discourse , to god and his powerful blessing and wonderful working ; remaining , thine in the difficult , and despised service of jesus christ in the gospel , w. dell . right reformation . or the reformation of the church of the new testament represented in gospel-light . heb. 9. 10. untill the time of reformation . the naturall man ( saith paul , 1 cor. 2. ) knows not the things of the spirit , neither can hee , for they are spiritually discerned . now a man that is not born of god and his spirit , with all his parts , abilities , reason , wisdome , prudence , learning , is but a naturall man still , and so hath no right knowledge of the things of god and his spirit . and hence it hath come to passe , that the things of god and his spirit have been so grosly and dangerously mistaken by the world , and the carnall church . for all the spirituall things of god they have understood carnally , and have apprehended the whole scriptures not according to gods mind , but according to their own ; not according to the sense of the spirit , but according to the sense of the flesh . and thus was antichrists kingdome first set up , and thus it hath been kept up and continued ; even by the carnall understanding of the scriptures . for they have understood the church , the kingdom of god in the world , carnally ; the rock on which it is built , carnally ; the door of this kingdome carnally ; the lawes of it carnally ; the liberties of it carnally ; the power , authority , government , glory , officers , &c. all carnally . and to this very day , which of the things of god doth not the carnall church understand carnally ? faith , hope , love , it understands carnally ; redemption , adoption , justification , sanctification , glorification , union with christ , communion of the spirit , accesse to the father , together with christ the head , and the church the body , in their joint unction and officers , and all other things , they understand carnally , and have a fleshly sense and apprehension of them . and as they understand all other things of gods kingdome carnally , so also the reformation of it ; and there are not greater and grosser mistakes about any of the things of god , then about this : men imagining the reformation of the church , which is altogether a spiritual and heavenly kingdom , after the manner of the reformation of worldly states and common-wealths , which only stands in outward things , and is brought to passe by humane councels , and humane power . now because this is not only a grosse , but a generall errour , in all sorts of people , both of high and of low degree , i shall indeavour , at this time , according to the good hand of god with me , to represent in some gospel-light to this honourable and christian auditory the true reformation of the church of the new-testament : and blessed is hee who shall not be offended at it . for this purpose i made choice of the words now read , vntill the time of reformation . for the better understanding of which , wee must read the context : ver. 9. the first tabernacle was a figure for the time then present , in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices that could not make him that did the service perfect as pertaining to the conscience . v. 10. which stood only in meats and drinks , and divers washings , and carnall ordinances ( it should be righteousnesses , or justifications of the flesh , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) imposed on them , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , untill the time of reformation . in which words , the apostle shews the imperfection of the worship of the old law , because it stood in outward rites , ceremonies , duties , performances , and so could not make him that used them and was busied in them , perfect as pertaining to his conscience ; and therefore god did not simply and absolutely impose these things on the church , to continue for ever , but only untill the time , wherein all things were to be reformed , not only evill things , but imperfect . and then all that outward religion was to be abolished . now if the law of moses could not make men perfect , as pertayning to the conscience , much lesse can any new lawes invented now . and if any such lawes should be imposed on the people of god now , the gospel hath the same strength in it self to make them void , as the former ; and also the same ground from them , because all such lawes and ordinances devised by men , cannot make them that obey and practise them perfect as pertaining to the conscience : and therefore are all to be at an end , when the time of reformation comes . quest . now if you ask me , when this time of reformation was . ans. i answer : it was when christ came ; not a servant , as moses , but the son out of the bosome of the father , the great prophet of the new testament , whose doctrine was not letter as moses was , but spirit and life : and now when christ the minister of the new testament , came with the ministration of the spirit , now was the time of reformation . in the time of the law there were outward duties , and performances , and ceremonies , and sacrifices , and strict laws to injoyn the observation of these things , carrying along with them the severity of death : and yet notwitstanding all this , there was no true reformation ; but under all that outward religion men were inwardly as corrupt and wicked as the very heathen : for all their circumcision in the flesh , they were uncircumcised in heart ; for all their outward washing , they were inwardly unclean ; for all their blood of buls and goats , their sins remained in their natures and consciences ; for all their strict forcing of men to the duties of the outward worship of god , the people still remained far from god even in all those duties . so that notwithstanding the outward worship of moses law , the people remained inwardly corrupt , filthy , and unclean , and without any true reformation before goa ; till christ , who was god in the flesh , came with the ministration of the spirit , and then indeed was the time of reformation . vntill the time of reformation . the thing then the spirit would have us take notice of in these words , is this , that the time of the gospel is the time of reformation . when-ever the gospel is preached in the spirit and power of it , that is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the time of reformation . for our more orderly proceeding in this point , wee will observe this method . 1. show what true gospel-reformation is , and how it is qualified ; that so you may the better distinguish it from politicall and ecclesiasticall reformation . now both these i joyn together , because the carnall church hath alwayes interested and mingled it self with the power of the world , as being able to doe nothing without it . 2. i will indeavour to shew to whose hands the work of gospel-reformation is committed . 3. by what means he to whose hands it is committed , brings it about . 4. the advantages of such a reformation where it is wrought . 5. the vse . the first generall . what true gospel reformation is , and how qualified . 1. what it is . it is the mortiying , destroying , and utter abolishing out of the faithfull and elect , all that sin , corruption , lust , evill , that did flow in upon them through the fall of adam . or , it is the taking away and destroying the body of sin , out of the faithfull and elect by the presence and operation of the righteousnesse of god , dwelling in their hearts by faith . this is true gospel reformation , and besides this i know no other . this the evangelicall prophet isaiah describeth , chap. 1. 27. zion shall be redeemed with judgement , and her converts with righteousnesse . now christ dwelling in our hearts by faith , as he discovers , reproves , condemnes , and destroyes sin , so he is called judgement : and thus is judgement to be understood in the gospel sense ; and not terribly , as in the sense of the law : and this judgement shall at last break forth into victory ; that is , though christ in us hath to doe with many strong corruptions and lusts in the soule , yet at last hee prevails against them all , and judgement breaks forth into victory , because christ , the judgement of god in the soul , must needs in the end prevail against every sin of man . again , christ the righteousnesse of god , as he makes us righteous with his own righteousnesse , and makes us the righteousnesse of god in him , so hee is called righteousnesse , not in himself onely , but in us : he is the lord our righteousnesse : and by this judgement and righteousnesse is zion and her converts redeemed and reformed . and so true gospel reformation is the destruction of sin out of the faithfull , by the presence of righteousnesse . and therefore you see how grosly they are mistaken who take gospel reformation to be the making of certain laws and constitutions by the sacred power or clergy , for externall conformity in outward duties of outward worship and government , and to have these confirmed by civill sanction , and inforced upon men by secular power ; when in the mean time , all that inward corruption and sin they brought with them into the world remains in their hearts and natures as it did before . after this manner the old prelates reformed , who were wont to say to the kings , wee will studie out the faith , and you shall maintain it : and the faith they studied and brought to the kings , the kings must maintain , and not question but that it was jure divino . and thus you see in generall what gospel reformation is , and that it is a cleer different thing from civil-ecclesiasticall reformation . 2. now in the next place let us see how this gospel reformation is qualified , whereby the difference between this and the other will appear yet more cleerly . first then , it is a spirituall reformation . for as the kingdome of christ is a spirituall kingdome , so all the things that belong to it are spirituall things ; and so the reformation of it . a carnall reformation is not sutable to a spirituall kingdom . and spirituall it is , because it proceeds from the spirit , and stands in spirituall things , as you shall see more fully anon . but now the reformation of the civill and ecclesiasticall state , is but a carnall reformation , wrought by the power of flesh and blood , and stands in outward and fleshly things , as you shall presently see . secondly , it is an inward reformation . for as the kingdome of god is an inward kingdome , ( the kingdome of god is within you ) so the reformation that belongs to it is an inward reformation . this true gospel reformation layes hold upon the heart , and soul , and inner man , and changes , and alters , and renews , and reforms that ; and when the heart is reformed , all is reformed . and therefore this gospel reformation doth not much busie and trouble it selfe about outward forms , or externall conformity , but onely minds the reforming of the heart , and when the heart is right with god , the outward form cannot be amisse . and therefore saith christ touching the worship of the new testament , god is a spirit , and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth : but speaks not one word of any outward form . so that god in this gospel reformation aims at nothing but the heart , according to the tenour of the new covenant , jer. 31. 33. this shall be the covenant that i will make with them after those dayes , saith the lord , i will put my law in their inward parts , and write it in their hearts : so that they shall not onely have the word of the letter in their books , but the living word of god in their hearts : and god intending to reform the church , begins with their hearts , and intending to reform their hearts , puts his word there , and that living word put into the heart reforms it indeed . but now civil-ecclesiasticall reformation is onely outward , and busies st selfe in reforming the outward man in outward things ; and so is very industrious and elaborate about outward forms , and outward orders , and outward government , and outward confession , and outward practice , and thinks if these be put into some handsom●nesse and conformity ; they have brought about an excellent reformation : though the heart in the mean time remain as sinfull , vile , and corrupt as ever , and so altogether unreformed . and so this reformation is like that reformation of the scribes and pharisees , notorious hypocrites , who made clean onely the outside of the cup or platter , leaving them all filthy and unclean within : and whited over sepulchres , to make them beautifull outwardly , when inwardly they were full of rottennesse and corruption . so civill-ecclesiasticall reformation makes a man clean outwardly , with an outward confession of faith , when inwardly hee is all filthy through unbelief ; and whites him over with a few handsome forms of worship , when inwardly hee is full of ignorance of god , and atheism . obj. now if any ask , but must there be no change of outward things in the reformation of the gospel ? answ. i answer , yes ; an outward change that flows from an inward : but not an outward change without an inward ; much lesse an outward change to enforce an inward . 3. it is a thorow reformation , for it reforms the whole man ; it reforms not the soul onely , but the body too , and the very spirit of the mind : the spirit as it animates , and quickens , and acts the body , is called the soule ; as it is in it selfe , in its owne nature and essence , so it is called the spirit of the mind : and this gospel reformation reforms all ; that is , both inward and outward , and outward and inward man ; yea , the inwardest of the inward man ; and not only the operations of the soul in the body , but of the soul in its selfe . but civill-ecclesiasticall reformation reforms by halfs , it reaches the body , and orders that , but attains not to the soul , much lesse to the spirit of the mind . again , gospel reformation reforms sin wholly , aswell as the man ; it reforms all sin whatsoever , i will turn my hand upon thee , ( saith god by this gospel reformation ) and will purely purge away thy drosse , and take away all thy tinne . it reforms a man not only of outward sins , but of inward . it reforms him of those sins that seldome come forth into the view of the world , as atheisme , ignorance of god , pride , vain-glory , self-seeking , hypocrisie , carnall mindednesse , and all the evill desires of the flesh , and of the minde . yea , it doth not only reform all evill things in us , but all imperfect things 〈◊〉 doing away imperfect things by the coming of perfect things , doing away our own strength by the coming in of gods strength , and our own wisdome and righteousnesse , by the coming in of gods wisdome and righteousnesse . but now civill-ecclesiasticall reformation reforms sin by the halfs , aswell as the man ; and so only reforms outward and grosse sins , such as run into the eyes of the world , which are the least by a thousand times of the evils that a man hath and acts ; but the greatest part of sin it still leaves within as it was . fourthly , it is a powerfull and mighty reformation : it is wrought in a man by the very power of god , even by the right hand of his righteousnesse . and so no sin , lust , corruption , though never so mighty , is able to refist this work of god by the gospel ; but it makes the whole body of sin , and the whole kingdome of the divell fly in pieces before it : the power of god in creating and redeeming the elect may as well be resisted , as the power of god in reforming them : for it is a power above all power , that god puts forth in this work , and so is not to be made void by any creature . in every stroke of this work the power of the lord god almighty is put forth , as every rightly reformed christian knows . and if the love of god had not put forth this power in the soule , a christian had never been reformed , no not from one sin . now the power of this reformation eminently appears , in that it changeth the very natures of men ; it findes them lions , it makes them lambs ; it findes them wolves , it makes them sheep ; it findes them birds of prey , it makes them doves ; it finds them trees of the forrest , it makes them apple-trees : in a word , it finds them flesh , it makes them spirit ; it finds them sin , it makes them righteousnesse . mighty indeed is the power of this reformation . but now , as this gospel reformation is mighty , so civill-ecclesiasticall reformation is weak . for as the former hath the power of god engaged in it , so this later hath only the power of man ; and so can do no such works as the former . i appeale to all that are spirituall , what heart or nature was ever changed by this sort of reformation ? for there is that corruption in the heart of every man , that is able to stand out against all the reformation that all the powers in the world can undertake . and so the reformation mannaged by the mightiest and severest powers of men is weak as water in this businesse of changing natures ; and can onely change some outward forms and postures , and the like , leaving in the mean time a mans nature the same it was before . it onely puts sheeps clothing upon men , which is easily done ; but still leaves them wolves underneath . fifthly , it is a constant reformation ; a reformation which being once begun , is never intermitted again till all be perfected . for as long a gods nature dwels in ours , it will ever be reforming our nature to it selfe , till it be altogether like it . as long as the spirit of god dwels in the flesh , it will still be reforming the flesh to the spirit , till the whole body of sin be destroyed , and the naturall man be made spirituall . so that the whole-time of this life that is lived in faith , that is , in union with christ , is a time of continuall reformation , and a christian is daily washing , cleansing , and purifying himself , till hee purifie himfelf even as christ is pure . but now civill-ecclesiasticall reformation at first makes a great noise and tumult in the world , and after lies as still as a stone . for such reformation reforms states and kingdoms to mens own profit , honour , power-advantages ; and so to themselves , rather then to christ . and when men have once attained to their own ends , their activity ceases . again , it brings men to certain outward orders and conformities , and then runnes round as in a mill , and goes no farther . again , it reforms for a time , and not constantly , because the outward power being taken away , nature returns to its own course again . for state-ecclesiasticall reformation onely changes some outward works , leaving the nature the self same that it was ( as you have heard ) . now where the works are contrary to nature , nature by degrees returns to it self again , and puts an end to those works ; and so there is an end of that reformation . and thus you see what gospel-reformation is , and how qualified , whereby you see it cleerly differenced from civill-ecclesiasticall reformation . and oh that that prophesie might here be fulfilled , isa. 32. 3. the eyes of them that see shall not be dim , and the ears of them that hear shall hearken . the second generall . to whose hand this work of reformation is committed . now that is only to jesus christ , the great and onely magistrate in the kingdome of god ; and who onely is to doe all that is done in the church of god : he is the dominus fac totum ( as they say ) . if the church be to be redeemed , christ must redeem it ; if it be to be governed , christ must govern it ; if it be to be protected , christ must protect it ; if it be to be saved , christ must save it : all that is to be done in the church of god , christ only is to do it ; and so among other things to reform it ; that is , to wash it , sanctifie it , purifie it . christ then is the only reformer of the church of god . for , first , god hath committed the care of the churches reformation to christ onely , and to no body else : and this is a thousand times better for the church , then if he had committed it to all the princes and magistrates in the world . all things are given to me of my father , saith christ ; and the church above all other things : thine they were , and thou gavest them mee ; thine they were by election , and thou gavest them me , that i might redeem them , and reform them , and present them to thee again without spot . so that the father hath committed the care of the reformation of the church to christ . and secondly , christ hath taken this care upon himself out of obedience to his father , and love to his church . 1. out of obedience to his father : for he saith , i came not to do my own will , but the will of him that sent me : and this is the will of him that sent mee , that of all that hee hath given mee i should lose none . and so christ reforms all , that he might lose none , out of obedience to his father . 2. out of love to his church he takes this care and charge on him . for such is the love of christ to the church every where so gloriously discovered in the gospel , that hee doth not onely give himself for us , to redeem us ; but also gives himself to us , to reform us . christ dying for us , is our redemption ; christ dwelling and living in us , is our reformation . thirdly , this work of reformation is only sutable to , and convenient for christ the head , as having so neer and deer interest in the church his body . and so he is ful of love , and bowels , and tender compassions to the church : he will not deal roughly , ruggedly , and boistrously with the saints ; hee will not grieve them , and vex them & oppresse them , and crush them in peices : but he being their head , wil deal meekly and gently with them , he will not break the bruised reed , nor quench the smoaking flax . when he is reforming the sins and corruptions of the faithfull , he deals with them in the very love and goodnesse of god , and wil not put them to more sorrow then needs must ; and when hee must needs put them to sorrow in the flesh ( for flesh cannot chuse but mourn to part with it self utterly in this reformation ) yet he is present with the comforts of his spirit , and when hee hath smitten them , is ready to heal them , and to bind them up as soon as he hath broken them . he deals with every christian in this reformation as tenderly as a man doth with one of his own members that is in grief and anguish ; he regards and handles him as his own body , as his own flesh . and so the reformation of christ is altogether for edification , and not at all for destruction : for it is his own body he reforms , and so doth it with the love of the head . but wh●n strangers , whose the church is not , set upon reforming it , what havock doe they make of the church of god ? how do they wound , and threaten , and punsh , and destroy it , and have no regard at all to the weak , infirm , sorrowfull saints , that are wrestling with many doubts , feares , agonies , corruptions , temptaetions , till they are overtaken with very shadow of death ? how do they yersecute them that are already smitten , and grieve them more that are already wounded ? and so you see that he only that hath an interest in the church as being the head of the church , is onely fit to reforme it ; whereas the reformation of strangers hath more cruelty in it then love , and more destruction then edification . fourthly , christ is onely able for this work : for the reformation of the church is as great a work as the redemption of it : and hee onely that could doe the one , can doe the other . christ must die to redeem the church , and hee must live to reform it : and so as the government of the church only lies upon his shoulders who is the head ; so the reformation of it onely lies upon his hands , and his hands onely are sufficient for it . if all the angels of heaven should undertake the work of reformation , they would sink under it ; how much more the powers of the world ? for , the taking away transgression for us , and from us , which is the only reformation of the new testament , is a work agreeable to none but the son of god , as it is written , his name shall be called jesus , for he shall save his people from their sins : where you have both the reformer , christ ; and the reformation , shall save his people from their sins : now hee must needs be the righteousnesse of god that must save people from fin . and hee must needs be god in the flesh that must reform the flesh ; none else can do it . to conclude this : none but the power of god , and wisdome of god , and the righteousnesse of god , which is jesus christ , can reform the church , which is the kingdom of god : and the power , wisdome , and righteousnesse of men have no place at all here , except they will turn the power , wisdom , and righteousnesse of god out of his office ; for so speaks the spirit by the prophet isaiah , ch. 2. 17. the loftinesse of men shall be bowed down , and the haughtiness of men shall be made low , and the lord alone all be exalted . now what is the loftinesse and haughtinesse of men , but the power , wisdom , and righteousnesse of men ? and all this , saith the lord , shall be bowed down and laid low ; and the lord alone shall be exalted , that is , christ alone , who is the power , wisdom , and righteousnesse of god ; and that in the day of the churches reformation , as well as in the day of the churches redemption . and thus you see that christ is the reformer of the church his body , which is the city and kingdom of god . and therfore the reformation of the church is certain ; for christ wil as surely reform it , as he hath redeemed it ; and all that the father hath given him he hath redeemed , and all that he hath redeemed he wil reform , that he may make them fit to present to god : that so all that the son hath received from the father , having redeemed and reformed them , he may give them back to the father again . so that i doubt not of the churches reformation , because it is christs own work , and he hath under taken the doing of it . and as none of the powers of the earth could help him to reform the church ; so none of the powers of hell shall be able to hinder him , but as many as he hath redeemed unto god by his blood , in his due time he will reform them all by his spirit , as belonging to his care & charge . and therefore let us look to christ for the reformation of his church , that is , of his faithfull people : the rest of the world that lies in wickednes , he lets remain in wickednesse , as not belonging to his care & charge . this reformation is the work of christs care & love , & he being faithful in this busines , i am at rest & quiet , seeing christ is as able for the reformation of the church , as for the redemption of it . and therefore ( honorable & beloved ) i say to you touching this work of the reformation of the spiritual temple of the new-test . as god once said to david touching the building of the materiall temple of the old test . 1 king. 8. 18. where as it was in thine heart ( said god ) to build an house to my name , thou didst well it was in thy heart . nevertheless , thou shalt not build the house , but thy son that shal come out of thy loins he shall build an house unto my name . and elsewhere he renders the reason of it , why dav. should not , & solomon should build this house , because , saith he , thou hast bin a man of war , and hast shed much blood : but solomon , he shall live and florish in eace , and he shall do it . so say i to you touching this work of reformation ; you did well in that it was in your hearts to reform the kingdome of god , and the spirituall church , which is christs own dear body . neverthelesse you shall not reform it , for you have been men of war ; that is you have managed a great and mighty war against great and mighty enemies , and have shed much bloud ; for the lord hath given you the necks of your enemies , and hath subdued them under you that rose up against you , and you have trod them down as mire in the streets . and therefore you shall not do this work , having been men of warre ; but christ the prince of peace , he shall reform the church of god : for this is not a work of men of war , but of the prince of peace , seeing this is not a work of humane might or strength , but of the spirit . so that you did well , that you thought to reforme the church : but when you understand the reformation of the church is as great a work as the redemption of it , you will acknowledge the work is too great for you , and that it belongs onely unto christ , seeing the father hath committed the care of this work only to him ; and he hath taken this care and charge upon himself , and it is onely sutable to him , as being the head of the church : and hee onely is able for it , as being the son of god , and equall to god . the third generall . by what means christ brings this reformation about . and that is , by these two , and them only ; to wit , the word , and the spirit . the first means whereby christ reforms the church is the word . by this christ doth all , that ever hee doth in his kingdome : by this he calls and rejects ; by this he binds and looseth ; by this he comforts and terrifies ; by this he enlightens and makes blind ; by this he kils and quickens ; by this he saves and damns ; and all that ever he doth in this kingdom he doth by his word , and without this he doth nothing of all that he doth . christ doth all in his kingdom by the word only ; but antichrist doth all things without the word , even by the decrees and constitutions of men . now as christ doth all other things in the church by the word , so he reforms too : now are yee clean through the word that i have spoken to you . all the powers in the world cannot reform the church as the word of god can do ; for this is quick and powerfull , and sharper then a two-edged sword , piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit , and of the joints and marrow , and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart , and doth change , and renew , and reform all . and therefore christ , when hee comes to reform the church , comes with no worldly power or weapons , but onely with the word in his mouth ; yea , though god set him king upon his holy hill of sion , yet he reforms not by outward power , but by preaching , saying , i will publish the decree whereof the lord hath said unto me , thou art my son , this day have i begotten thee . and again , the spirit of the lord is upon mee , for he hath annointed mee to preach the gospel . and again , the redeemer shall come to sion : and then follows the covenant of god with the redeemer , my word shall never depart out of thy mouth , isa. 59. 10. and in psalm 45. the church saith by the spirit to christ , ride on prosperously on the word of truth , meeknesse , and righteousnesse , which is the word of the gospel . and so christ , when the time of reformation was come , went up and down preaching the word . and thus he brought to passe the glorious reformation of the new testament , by preaching the gospel of the kingdome , and nothing else . and when hee was to leave the world , hee sent his disciples to carry on the work of reformation , as hee himselfe had begun it , as hee saith , as my father sent mee , so send i you ; not with the power of the world , but with the power of the word : and so hee bid them goe teach all nations , and preach the gospel to every creature : and by teaching and preaching to the world , to reforme the world : and so accordingly they did mark 16. ver. 20. they went forth and preached every where , the lord working with them . so that christ sent them not forth with any power of swords , or guns , or prisons to reforme the world , or with any power of states , or armies : but sent forth poor , illiterate , mechanick men , and only armed them with the power of the word ; and behold what wonders they wrought by that power alone : they turned the world upside downe ; they changed the manners , customes , religion , worship , lives , and natures of men ; they carried all oppositions and difficulties before them ; they won many in most kingdoms unto christ , and brought them into willing subjection and obedience to him : and all this they did ( i say ) not with any earthly or secular power , but by the ministery of the gospel alone , christs great and onely instrument for the conquering , subduing , and reforming of the nations . and so the power appeared to be gods onely , and not the creatures . and thus you see how the word is one means christ useth for reformation . and this word only works a right reformation : for this reforms truly and indeed ; all other power reforms but in appearance . so that there is no true reformation of any thing but what is wrought by the word : but what ever evill is reformed , and not by the power of the word , it is not truly reformed ; it is onely reformed in the flesh , and not in the spirit : it is only suspended in the outward operation of it , but the seed and nature of it still remaines in the heart , to grow up and work again , as opportunity serves . and therefore what-ever evill or corruption is reformed in thee , see it be reformed by the power of the word : if the word hath killed it in thee , it is killed indeed ; if not , it is alive in thee , though it seeme to be dead . the outward power of the world may set up an image of reformation , but it is the word onely can work true reformation . and therefore let us learn to rely on the word for the reformation of the church . for this is much for the honour of the word ( which god hath magnified above all his name ) when wee can neglect the power of the world , and leave the whole work of reformation to the power , working , and efficacy of the word alone , which is almighty , and able to bring off the heart from all things to god . as on the contrary , it is a great dishonor to god and his word , when men dare not relie on the word alone to reform the church , though it be stronger then men and angels and all the creatures ; but will needs be calling in the power of the world , and rest and rely on that , for this work , as if the power of the word were not sufficient . but let such men know , that if the power of the word , will not reform men ; all the power of the world will never do it . and therefore well said luther , praedicare , annuntiare , scribers volo , neminem autem vi adigam , i will preach and teach and write , but i will constrain no body . oh therefore that our civill and ecclesiasticall powers would so much honour christs word , as to trust the reformation of his kingdome with it ; and that as it is sufficient to reform the church , so you would be pleased to think it sufficient ; and thus shall you give christ and his word due honour , as well as declare your own faith . and if you would commit this work to the power of the word , to which onely it belongs , you should soon see what the word would do . there is no such glorious sight under heaven as to see the word , in the spirit and power of it , come in to an unreformed world , and to observe the changes and alterations it makes there . and thus you see that one means that christ useth for the reformation of his church , is the word . but here i must further declare to you that this word by which christ reforms the church , is not the word of the law ; for the law made nothing perfect , but the word of the gospel ; this , this , is the onely word , that works reformation . for first , 1. this word works faith ; and therefore it is called the word of faith , because faith comes by hearing of this word , rom. 10. ver. 8. and v. 17. now as the word workes faith , so faith apprehends the word , even that word that was with god and was god ; this living and eternall word , dwels in our heart by faith , as the apostle saith , that christ may dwell in your hearts by faith : and this word dwelling in us by faith , changeth us into its own likenesse , as fire changeth the iron into its own likenesse , and takes us up into all its own vertues . and so the word dwelling in the flesh , reforms the flesh , and it dwels in us through faith , and faith is wrought by the gospel . so that the word whereby christ reforms , is not the word without us , as the word of the law is ; but the word within us , as it is written , the word is nigh thee , even in thy mouth , and in thy heart ; and this is the word of faith : if thou live under the word many years , and if it come not into thy heart , it wil never change thee , nor reform thee . and therefore the reforming word is the word within us , and the word within us is the word of faith . 2. the gospel reformes , because it doth not only reveal christs righteousnesse , as it is written , the righteousnesse of god is revealed from faith to faith ; but also it communicates it to us : and therefore it is called the word of righteousnesse , because it works righteousnesse . so that christ , the righteousnesse of god , is conveyed to us through this word of righteousnesse . and when the righteousnesse of god , revealed in the gospel , comes and dwels in us , what reformation of sin doth this work ? all sin perisheth , at the rebuke of his countenance , for the righteousnesse of god will endure no sin in us ; and so the gospel reformes by working righteousnesse in us . 3. the gospel reformes , because it shews us christ , and by shewing us him , it changeth us into his image : the more we see christ in the gospel , the more are we made like unto him , that as we have born the image of the earthly , so we may bear the image of the heavenly adam . 2. yea the gospel shews us god in christ in all his glory , and changeth us into that glory of god which is shewn us ; we all saith paul with open face , beholding as in a glasse ( and this glasse is the gospel ) the glory of the lord , are changed into the same image from glory to glory , even as by the spirit of the lord : so that the gospell by shewing us god , changing us into the image of god and god through the gospel , ariseth on us , till his glory be seen upon us . and thus you see the grounds of the gospels reformation . so that now the word of the gospel , is the only reforming word : and if there be never so much preaching , if it be but legal , it wil reform no body aright ; because there can be no working faith , nor communicating righteousnesse , nor changing men into gods image , and so there can be no true reformation . and thus much for the first means of reformation which christ useth , which is the word , and this word the gospel . 2. means , the spirit . for the spirit accompanies the word in the ministry of the gospel ; and therefore the gospel is called the ministration of the spirit , that is , the word and spirit in union and operation . in the law there was the letter without the spirit , and so that could do nothing ; but in the gospel the word and the spirit are alwayes joyned : and therefore saith christ , the words that i speak are spirit and life , that is , they come from the spirit and carry spirit with them . and this spirit that is present in the word of the gospel , and works in it , and is given by it , reforms mightily ; and therefore it is called the spirit of judgement and burning : and the lord looking to this time of reformation , promised long before to pour out his spirit upon all flesh , and so to reform all flesh . now the spirit poured forth upon the flesh , reforms it two wayes . 1. by taking away all evils out of the flesh . 2. by changing the flesh into its own likenesse . 1. the spirit poured forth upon the flesh , reforms it all by taking all evil out of the flesh ; as first , all sin and corruption ; saith paul , if you mortifie the deeds of the flesh by the spirit yee shal live ; the deeds of the flesh are not to be mortified by any power , but by the spirit ; all pride and envy and lust and covetousnesse and carnal mindedness and all other evils of the flesh , are reformed by the presence of the spirit in it , and no other way . 2. the spirit reforms not only all sins in the church , but all errors , and heresies , and false doctrines , as is evident by that of paul 1 cor. 1. 12. if any man , build upon this foundation gold , silver , precious stones , wood , hay , stubble , every mans work shal be made manifest ; for the day shal declare it , because it shal be revealed by fire , and the fire shal try every mans work of what sort it is , &c , so that a man may lay christ for a foundation , and yet build wood , hay , and stubble upon him , that is , humane doctrines and the inventions of men , and false and wicked opinions . 2. the destruction of this hay , wood , and stubble , error , herefie , and humane doctrines in the church of god , that is , the people built on christ , shal not be by laws of states , or constitutions of councels , but by the holy ghost which is as fire . the spirit shal come into the saints , and burn up all that corrupt and false doctrine that wil not indure the spirit ; and error shal never be destroyed , but by the spirit of truth . so that the spirit reforms all error , as wel as all corruptions in the faithful . 2. the spirit doth not only reform the flesh by taking away all evil out of it , whether corruptions or errors ; but also it changeth the flesh into its own likenesse : for the spirit is as fire that changeth every thing into its self ; and so doth the spirit in the flesh , make the flesh spirituall : like heavenly fire it changeth men into its own likenesse , and makes them spiritual , heavenly , holy , meek , good , loving , &c. and thus the spirit reforms indeed : when the spirit is poured forth upon a man , how wonderfully doth it reform him ? this works a change in him in goodearnest , and no man is ever truly reformed , til he receive the spirit . and thus you see the means that christ useth to work this reformation , and these are the only means . object . yea but i hope you wil allow secular power too : may not the spiritual church of christ be reformed with worldly and secular power . ans. i answer , by no means , and that for these causes . 1. forceable reformation , is unbeseeming the gospel ▪ for the gospel is the gospel of peace and not of force and fury . civil-ecclesiasticall reformation reforms by breathing out threatnings , punishments , prisons , fire , and death ; but the gospel by preaching peace . and therefore it is most unbeseeming the gospell , to do any thing rashly and violently , for the advancement thereof : for the gospell of peace is not to be advanced by violence ; and therefore violent reformers live in contradiction to the gospel of peace , and cannot be truely reckoned christians , but enemies to christianity , sith christianity doth all by the power of the anoynting , but anti-christianity doth all by the power of the world . 2. forceable reformation is unsutable to christs kingdom ; for christs kingdom stands in the spirit , and the force of flesh and blood can contribute nothing to this . 2. again the faithful , the subjects of this kingdom , are a spiritual people , and so they are without the reach of any outward force ; you may as wel go about to bring the angels of heaven under an outward and secular power , as the faithful , who being born of the spirit , are more spiritual then they . and what hath flesh and blood to do with them that are born of the spirit , in the things of the spirit ? and therefore touching this kingdom which is spiritual , and beyond not only the power , but the cognisance of the world , god hath said , there shall be none to kill nor hurt in all my holy mountain . and again violence shal no more he heard in thy streets , wasting nor destruction within thy borders . 3. as they are a spiritual people , so also a willing people ; and what needs outward power to force a people made willing by the spirit ? thy people shal be willing in the day of thy power : the very day of christs power , is not to force men against their wills , but to make them willing . the spirit of god that brings them to this kingdom , makes them willing to obey god there , and gives them pleasure in that obedience , by shedding abroad the love of god in their hearts . they that are not a willing people , belong not to christs kingdom , but to the world . 3. by this forceable reformation , human institution is set up ; for the power of the world reforms by the prudence of the world : and men never use human power in the church , but they first make human laws in it ; and human laws are the rule of human power . and so by this means , the authority of men , is made to have power , not in the things of men , but in the things of god : which is the great dishonour of god and his authority . 4. it brings men into blind obedience and makes them obey what is commanded on pain of punishment , though they know not whether it be right or wrong ; with the word , or against the word : so that a man shal say , that which i do i am constrained to do , and therefore i do it because i am constrained . i read in frithes answer to the bishop of rochester , that a youth being present at his fathers burning , the officers seeing him , resolved to examine him also , to try if they might find him a sectary or an heretick : but the youth dismayed at the sad fight of his fathers death , and fearing the like end himself , being asked of one of them , how he beleeved ? answered , sir i beleeve even as it pleaseth you . and so the more outward and violent power is used upon men , the more of this kind of faith and obedience you shal have : when men shal see prisons , and banishments , and losse of goods , and death , walking up and down the kingdom for the reformation of the church , you shal at last have men say , sirs , we wil beleeve and do , even as it pleaseth you : we wil beleeve as the state pleaseth , or we wil beleeve as the counsel pleaseth ; and let them make what confession they wil , we had rather beleeve them , then indure them . and thus by fear and punishment may men be brought to say and do that which they neither beleeve nor understand : and how acceptable such popish faith and obedience is unto god , all spiritual christians know , and every mans conscience , me thinks , should be convinced . 5. it makes men hypocrites and not saints ; for it forceth the body , and leaves the heart as it was ; for the heart cannot be forced by outward power , but by the inward efficacy of the truth ▪ now the hearts of men being corrupt , what are all outward duties , they are forced to , but so much hypocrisie ? so that forceable reformation makes only hypocrites and gilded sepulchres , putting a form of godlinesse , upon the outward man , when there is no power of godliness in the innerman , but a power of ungodlinesse . that reformation with which the uncleanesse of the heart stands , is none of christs reformation . vvhat is the reformation of the outward man , when the heart is ful of atheism , ignorance of god , adultery , pride , murder , &c. and all the corruptions of nature ? cal you this a reformation of the church of christ ? this reformation makes none saints , but all hypocrites , forcing mens actions contrary to their natures . 6. it causes disturbances and tumults in the world ; when men are forced by outward power to act against their inward principles in the things of god , what disturbances and tumults this hath bred in states and kingdoms who knows not ? so that they that lay hold on the power of men , and go about to reform hearts and consciences , by outward violence , are never the cause of reformation , but always of tumult : and this renders the cause of the gospel grievous & odious to the world , rather then c●mmends it . and therefore , let all that love the gospel of christ , abstain from outward violence ; for they that use the sword in this kind , shal in the end perish by the sword . a man when he sins not against the state , may justly stand for his state-freedom ; and to deprive a man of his state-liberties for the kingdom of christs sake , as it causeth disturbances in the world , so let any man shew me any such thing in the gospel . 7. christ useth no such outward force himselfe , for hee is meek and lowly in spirit ; and not boysterous and furious in the flesh . and it was foretold of him he should not strive , nor cry , nor lift up his voyce in the streets to cal in outward and secular ayd , power . he never used the power of the world , but did all by the power of the word ; even his very punishments and distructions , he executes by the word ; he shal smite the earth with the rod of his mouth , and with the breath of his lips he shal slay the wicked : and antichrist himself , his greatest enemy , he destroyes by the spirit of his mouth , and the brightnesse of his coming . 2. neither did christ command his apostles to use any such outward power , but he sent his disciples to preach , and bid them say into what house soever they entred , peace be to this house ; and if men would not receive peace and the doctrine of peace , not to force them , but to depart thence , and to shake off the dust of their feet as a witnesse against them , that they had been there , according to the wil of christ and the father , and offered them mercy and salvation , which they refused . and this is all that the ministers of the gospel can do to any that refuse their doctrine , and not to go to the secular magistrate to ask power to punish them , or imprison them , or sel their goods , as is now practised in some parts of the kingdom , even upon the saints : and if men be wicked , is it not misery enough for them to refuse eternal life , except also they inflict on them temporal death ? is it not misery enough for men to refuse the good things of heaven , except they also deprive them of the good things of this present life ? and yet as luther said of the clergy , quando non invocat brachium seculare ? & morte utraque terrat mundum : when doth it not cal upon the secular power , and terrifies the world with both deaths ? surely christ and the word approved not these ways . for , math. 18. christ imposeth no other punishment on them , that would not hear the church , then that he should be reckoned as a heathen ; and paul , titus 3. teacheth us after once and twice admonition to avoyd an heretick , but not to imprison him , or kil him , or banish him : and again they that do these things shal not inherite the kingdome of god ; and again , he that beleever not shal bee damned ; but not one word of outward or corporal punishment in all the gospel . 3. yea christ reproveth his disciples , for discovering such a spirit of tyranny as to punish men for not receiving him , luk. 9. when the apostles of a prelatical and antichristian spirit , in that particular , desired fire to come down from heaven upon them , that would not receive him , christ did severely rebuke them , saying , ye know not of what spirit ye are , not of christs spirit , which is meek , but of sathans , who was a murderer from the beginning , and of antichrists , his first begotten in the world : and he adds , the son of man came not to destroy mens lives , but to save them ; and therefore to go about to turn the gospel , not to save mens lives , but to destroy them , and so to change christ himself from a saviour into a destroyer , this is antichrist triumphant . all these things shew that worldly power hath no place at all in the reformation of the gospel . now i should have proceeded here to answer some objections , as namely : 1. that of luke 14. compel them te come in : this , i forgetting , named not . may a christian then live as he list ? no by no means ; for he hath the word and spirit in him , to keep him from living as he list ; and he knows that no man in gods kingdom may live as he wils , but as god wils . but would you have no law ? no laws in gods kingdom , but gods laws ; and these are a thausand times better then all the laws of men : and they are these three : the law of a new nature . the law of the spirit of life that is in christ . the law of love . but would you have no government ? yes , but the government of christ the head , and the holy ghost the spirit , in and over the church the body . they that would govern the faithful the members of christs own body , make themselves the head of those members ; and so antichrist may as wel be found in a combination of men , as in one single person . but would you have no order ? yes , the best that is ; even such an order as is in the body of christ ; where every member is placed by christ , and none by itself ; the order of the spiritual church is a spiritual order , and not a carnal . but would you have sin suffered ? no , but more truly and throughly destroyed , then any power of the world can destroy it ; even by the spirit of judgment and burning . but would you have sinners suffered ? no , but punished more severely , then any powers of the world can punish them ; for he shal smite the earth with the rod of his mouth , and with the breath of his lips he shal slay the wicked . and as for those that are outwardly wicked , the magistrate is to keep them in order , for the quiet of the state , he having power over their persons , estates , and lives . i should also have proceeded to the next thing ▪ the advantages of such a gospel reformation where it is wrought ; together with the vses : but because i would not be over long , i passe by these things , and so proceed no farther in this discourse . but being brought hither by an unexpected providence , i shal crave liberty to speak a few words to you in the behalf of two kingdoms , that is , this kingdom and gods . 1. that which i have to request of you for this kingdome , is , that you would regard the oppression of the poore , and the sighing of the needy : never was there more injustice and oppession in the nation then now ; i have seen many oppressed and crushed , and none to help them . i beseech you consider this with all your hearts , for many who derive power from you are great appressors . and therefore i require you in the name of god , to discharge the trust that god hath put into your hands ; and so to defend the poor and fatherlesse , to do justice to the afflicted and needy , to deliver the poor and needy , and to rid them out of the hands of the wicked ; this is your businesse , discharge your duty : if you wil not , then hear what the lord saith , psa. 12. 5. for the oppression of the poor ; for the sighing of the needy , now wil i arise saith the lord : and gods rising in this case , would prove your ruine . if you wil not do gods work in the kingdome which he hath cal'd you too , he wil do it himself , without you ; as it is written , he shal deliver the needy when he cryeth , the poor also ; and he that hath no helper ; he shal save their souls from deceit and violence ; the common evils of the times . and this is all that i have to say for this kingdom . 2. i have a few more things to say touching gods kingdom ; and the first is this . 1. that as christs kingdom , and the kingdoms of the world are distinct , so you would be pleased to keep them so ; not mingle them together your selves , nor suffer others to do it , to the great prejudice and disturbance of both . 2. that you would be pleased to think that christs kingdom ( which is not of this world ) hath sufficient power in it self to mannage all the affairs of it , without standing in need of any ayd or help from the world ; seeing the power of man is of no place or use in the kingdom of god , which is not a temporal , or an ecclesiastical dominion , but a spiritual . 3. that you would suffer , the little stone of christs kingdom to be hewen out of the mountain of the roman monarchy , whereof this kingdome is a part , without hands , even by the power and efficacy of the word and spirit ; seeing the hands of men cannot help but hinder this work which is to be done without hands : and that your might , and your power would please to let god do this work of his without might and without power , and by his spirit only . 4. that you would be pleased to suffer the assemblings of the saints , both publikely and privately , as occasion serves , seeing this can be no prejudice to the state , but a great advantage ; in as much as they meet peaceably and make no tumults , and in their assembling pray for the peace and welfare of this divided and distracted kingdome . and also , that you take heed of scattering those churches , that meet in the name and spirit of iesus christ , ( which are christs own gathering tog●ther , least christ so scatter you abroad that you never be gathered together again . 5. that you take heed you do nothing to the prejudice of the faithfull , gods own people ; as he hath warned you by the spirit , saying , touch not mine anoynted and do my prophets no harm ; this place hath been miserably mistaken : for the kings of the earth and the clergie have shared it between themselves , whereas indeed it belongs to neither , for gods anoynted are the faithfull that are anoynted with the spirit , the oyle of god , and so are anoynted as christ was anoynted . and these anoynted ones , are the lords prophets , and the lord hath no prophets but such as are anoynted with the spirit . thus christ was made the lords prophet , the spirit of the lord is upon me , for he hath anointed me to preach the gospell ; and thus are all his brethren made prophets ; being fellows with him in his unction . and therefore take heed how you meddle with the lords anoynted ones , and with the lords prophets ; for as it is said , he suffered no man to do them wrong , yea he even reproved kings for their sakes , saying , touch not , &c. so the lord hath still the same care of the same people , and will suffer no man to do them wrong , but will reprove kings and parliaments , and kingdomes , and cities , and counties , and committees , he will reproove them all for their sakes , and say , touth not mine anointed and do my prophets no harm : for they rhat are anoynted with the spirit are the flesh of christ , and the prophets of god , and therefore touch them and harm them a● your own perill . it grieves me to see the rest of the kingdome touching these anoynted ones of god , and doing harm to these his prophets , abusing , and spoyling and imprisoning them ; it would gr●●ve me much more if i should see you doing the same , for this would bring you as well as the kingdome under gods own reproofe , and the reproofe of god who can indure ? sixthly , and lastly , takeheed you do not hinder the free passage of the gospell . when god hath put his spirit into the hearts of men , take heed how you resist the word in those mens mouthes ; for the word of god in the meanest instrument , can never be resisted , but will carry all before it , the honour , power , dignity , authority , nobility , magistracy , of the kingdome , if they should once stand up to hinder the word of god , the word of god would carry them all before it . and therefore it grieves me to see how the city , country , country towns , villages , do all rise up for the most part against the ministration of the spirit , for this is a certain signe of the undoing of them all : god will suffer and indure any sin long but onely the contempt and opposition of the gospel : but when men once rise up against the gospel in the spirit and power of it , they are sure to be undone by it , and to be shattered all in peeces , for this brings swift vengeance . and therefore when i see the generality of the people of of all sorts , rise up against the ministration of the spirit ( which god hath now in these dayes of ours , set up even in every county for salvation to his people , but for a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence to the rest ) i am then exceedingly distressed and pained at the very heart for thee o england , and for all thy cities , and towns , and inhabitants ; for thou that dashest against the spirit in the gospell , how shalt thou be dashed in peeces thy selfe , and there shall be no healing for thee ? i could hope for peace again and good dayes ▪ suddenly in this kingdome but for this sin of the contempt and opposing the gospel , and this makes my hopes , even at an end ; and the day of my feare , is come forth upon me . but oh you honourable and beloved christians , let not your soul enter into those mens secrets , neither yet walk in their open and publike wayes ; for ruin and destruction are in their pathes , and the way of peace they shall never knnw , seeing god is about to enter into controversie withall flesh , for their rising up against the ministration of the spirit . and therefore be wise here i beseech you , that in the shattering of the nation ( if there be no remedy ) you may be kept together as a blessed remnant and a hopefull seed of the following geneation . to conclude . honourable and worthy , we will be willingly contented , to do and suffer all things with you ; we will cheerfully run through honour and dishonour with you ; fame and infamy ; gaine and losse , trouble and quietnesse , war and peace , life , and death ; and do desire to reserve nothing to our selves , nisi unicum verbum domini , but onely the word of god , in its own purity and liberty , to preach it , and to publish it , and to professe it , and practise it for the glory of god and his only begotten son and for the good of his kingdome and this kingdome . and thus much unto you from the lord . a reply to mr. love's contradictions . sir , because i would not wrong you in any measure in what you said , i went to one who took your notes in short-hand ; and hee gave mee what i here set down for yours , which i well remember are the things you then spake , for the substance of them : to which i give you this following reply . mr. love . cast your eyes upon the begun reformation , though peradventure cried down with confidence , no such thing as the reformation of the church , &c. reply . i taught indeed , that the kingdome of christ is a spirituall kingdome , and the reformation of it is answerable ; and that christ himselfe , who is the lord , the spirit , is the reformer of this spirituall kingdome by his word and spirit : but little thought that any man would have been so blind or worse , as to have affirmed , the preaching of this spirituall and glorious reformation , was to preach against all reformation . is the reformation of jesus christ , which hee works by his word and spirit in all the faithfull , and in all the churches of the saints no reformation at all ? how durst you affirm this mr. love ? mr. love . as if all were encompassed within the narrow heart of man . reply . yet i said plainly enough , when the heart is reformed , all is reformed ; and gospel reformation , though it begins in the inward man , ends in the outward . did you sir , accuse mee rightly then or no ? mr. love . if this be so , race out the first article of the covenant . reply . i had rather the whole covenant were raced out , then the least truth contained in the word of god : though i like the covenant well enough , according to the true intention of it . again , if the thing be truly considered , it will appear , that you are more against the covenant then i : for the covenant engages us to reform according to the word of god ; but you ( it seems ) would reform without , yea against the word , with outward and secular power ; which you will not suffer in the magistrates hands neither , but will needs have it in your own . mr. love . if this doctrine be true , that gospel reformation be only spirituall , then i wonder how paul was so out , who said , when i come i will set all things in order ? surely that was a church order . reply . but pray , what outward or secular power had paul , ( who suffered not onely much from the world , but most from the false apostles ) to set the church in order ? did paul ( think you ) use any worldly power to set the church in order ; or only the power of the word and spirit ? but these men think , if the church be to be set in order by the word and spirit onely ( which were sufficient in pauls time ) it 's like to be out of order for them . mr. love . to cry down all kinde of government under heart-government ; and all reformation as carnall , because you have the civil magistrates hand to it , is against that place of paul , 1 tim. 2. 2. pray for kings , and all that are in authority ; that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all godlinesse and honestie . reply . well argu'd now indeed . babes and sucklings , you shall come forth and answer this master i● israel . the sense of this place is evidently this ; that christians should pray for kings & governors , that god would so incline their hearts , that whilest we live in godlinesse under them , they would suffer us to live in peace ; and not make us fare the worse in the world , for our interest in the kingdom of god . and what one drop can mr. love squeeze out of this scripture to cool the tip of his tongue ? for the meaning is not , that the magistrate should inforce godlinesse ; but protect us in godlinesse . mr. love . to justle out the magistrates power , is to justle out the first article of the covenant ; ( what again ? ) and they that justle out that , will justle out you shortly . reply . good sir , ascribe not your own work to ●●r hands . the justling out the magistrate , have you not made it the chief part of your businesse now for a long while together ? and are you not still so diligently acting it every day , that now you think your work is in some forwardnesse , and you are pretty well able to deal with him ? and now because you would not be mistrusted your selves , you publickly slander us with it . wee see cleerly thorow all your slender disguises . mr. love . ezra was of another mind , ezra 7. 26. whosoever will not do the law of thy god , and the law of thy king , let iudgement be executed speedily upon him , whether it be unto death , or unto banishment , or to confiscation of goods , or to imprisonment . reply . well , sir , will you stand to this place , and shall this end the controversie ? pray mark then : this was part of the decree of artaxerxes , a king of the nations , touching the jewes , for the rebuilding of the material temple ; that they should have liberty to do it , and not be molested in the doing of it , but should have what assistance the state could afford . the decree was this : ezra 7. 13. i make a decree , that all they of the people of israel , and of the priests and levites in any realm , which are minded of their own free will , to go up to jerusalem , go with thee ; for asmuch as thou art sent of the king and his seven councellors , to enquire concerning iudah and ierusalem , according to the law of thy god that is in thy hand , &c. and ver. 21. ● artaxerxes the king do make a decree to all the treasurers beyond the river , that whatsoever ezra the priest shall require of you , it be done speedily unto two hundred talents of silver . and then , ver. 26. follows ; whoever will not do the law of thy god , and the law of thy king , let him be so and so punished , as you have heard . 1. here then you see , that artaxerxes made no decree to inforce all the jewes to go build ; but as the text saith , those that were minded of their own free will . see you not here , that even a king of the nations thought it unreasonable to force any man to go to build gods material house , against his will . 2. and secondly , you see , how he gave them no lawes how to build , but permitted them to do it , according to the law of their god that was in their hands . 3. and thirdly , you see , how he deterred any from hindering them from this work , upon pain of death , banishment , &c. do you not perceive now by this time , how you then deceived the people , by giving them the letter of the word , without the true sense of it , as satan dealt with christ in his temptations ? such sermons bring an houre of temptation upon the people . this then is the force of the place : 1. first , that the magistrate may make a decree , for all that are minded of their own free will , to build the spiritual temple of jesus christ , and to gather up into a communion of saints . 2. secondly , that he ought to permit this to be done , according to the law of our god that is in our hands , or rather according to the law of the spirit of life ▪ that is in our hearts ; and not to inforce upon us any clergy constitutions . 3. and thirdly , that he may deterre you , and the rest of the kingdome that are of the like minde , from resisting and bindering this work , which hath its authority from heaven . that so the saints ( the kingdome of christ ) may pray for the magistrate , and christ ( the king of saints ) may blesse the magistrate , and make him prosperous . and pray now what is all this to your purpose ? mr. love . if it was good in your hearts to think to reform ; it s much better to do it . reply . does not god say , it was well , that david thought to build a temple ; and yet for all that , he should not build it ? and do you now dare to blame this very thing ? cannot the scripture it self be quiet for you ? mr. love . you need not fear losing a party . reply . yea , but how if god be in that party ? what then , sir ? is it not better keeping a little , poor , despised party , that hath god in it ; then a great and numerous party , without god ? again , did you preach before the parliament , to make or cast off parties ? doth this appertain to the mysterie of christ and the father ? reader , these men are so over-busie in making , and marring parties , that i much feare they will , in the end , throw the kingdome into more misery and blood than their predecessors have done . mr. love . reformation is no forcing conscience , it meddles not with conscience , it restrains practice : if a iesuite come from rome to kill a great person , he does it in conscience , but i meddle not with his conscience , i restrain his practice . reply . does not your reformation meddle with conscience , mr. love ? did you speak this of your self , at randome , as the rest , or is this the sense of your brethren ? and doth your reformation only restrain outward practice ? then to tye up mad dogs , and beares , and tygers , is your most excellent reformation . you that will not meddle with the consciences of men , it is no wonder you are making so many iron yoaks for their necks , and so many snares and fetters to hamper the outward man , the proper subject ( it seems ) of your reformation . and thus taking upon your selves the reformation of the outward man , you do indeed put the magistrates work to an end ; and then the assembly may serve , in the place of the house of commons ; and sion-colledge in the place of the lord mayor , aldermen , and common-councel . see you not yet , oh ye powers of the world , how the ecclesiastical powers would ●a● you out ? and for your iesuite , did you ever hear me say or hint , that the magistrate should not restrain and punish outward wickednesse ? i wish therefore you would unriddle your selves , and tell truly , if you dare , how far you would limit the magistrate , and inlarge your selves upon the outward man . but certainly , if the magistrates power hath under it the whole outward man , as indeed it hath : and if christs power have under it , the whole inward man , as indeed it hath ; what place then ( i pray ) is there left for your ecclesiastical power , when the outward and the inward man are disposed of before ? sure , when the magistrate takes his own proper power to himself , and christ his own proper power to himself ; your power will be found to have no place , either in the worlds kingdom , or gods ; but you must find out some third place for it ; for i will assigne you none , left you prove too angry . mr. love . the church of thyatira might thinke shee had new light , and yet god saith , i have a few things against thee , because thou sufferest the woman jezabel , &c. reply . truly sir , when god shall make you a new creature , you will be glad of new light ; for behold ( saith god ) i make all things new , even the light as well as the creature : the old light will serve the old man wel enough . and for the spirits reproving the angel of the church , for suffering false and erroneous teachers ; doth this prove as you undertake that the angel of the church had or exercised , civil and secular power in the church of christ ? you erre not understanding the scriptures ; for then any thing is suffered in the church , when it is not reproved and condemned by the word ; the word of truth , taught and published in the church , will suffer no errour there ; but you understand this suffering , of outward and violent power . do you not remember , that i said at the beginning , that the carnal church understands the whole scriptures carnally ? mr. love . and now to hear such sermons preached , and books printed ; if it had been at amsterdam , it had been no marveil : but at london , and at westminster , &c. reply . truly , such a sermon as mine might have been preached at amsterdam , or anywhere else where the gospel hath free passage : and such a sermon as yours might have been preached at rome , or anywhere else where the precious word of god is under restraint , and ecclesiastical power exalts it self , both above the power of the word , and the power of the nation . your sermon savours as ill to the faithfull , as mine to the world . many other weak , passionate , inconsiderate , erronious things , fell from mr. love , neither worth the troubling the reader with , nor my self ; and so they may perish and rot in their own grave ( if they will ) for they shall never receive a resurrection from me . and now at the close of all , i desire the reader to observe the difference between our enemies and our selves , in this great point of authority and iurisdiction , which is this : that we exalt iesus christ alone in the spiritual church ; and attribute to the magistrate , his full power in the world ; but they exalt themselves in christs stead , in the church ; and set under their feet the magistrates power in the world . and this is so evident , that there is some apcration of satan , more or lesse , upon him that sees it not . finis . — praesens malejudicat aetas , iudicium melius , posteritatis erit . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a82317e-5750 rev. 3. 11 , 12. notes for div a82317e-7610 antichrists kingdome set up by the carnall understanding of the scriptures . the reformation of the church understood carnally . the imperfection of the worship of the old law . no outward law can make men perfect as pertaining to the conscience , and so the gospel abolishes all such outward laws imposed on conscience , as well now as heretofore . doctr. gospel reformation : 1. what it is . christ judgement . christ righteousnesse . gospel reformation is 1. spirituall . 2. inward . matth. 23. 25. 3. thorows isa. 1. 25. 4. powerfull . 5. constant . christ the reformer . note . 1. the care of the church given to christ . 2. christ takes it . 1. out of obedience . 2 love . 3 the work of reformation only sutable to christ . 4. christ only able for the work of reformation . 1. the word . the gospell reformes . 1. works faith . 2. communicates righteousnesse . 3. shews christ . 2. the second meanes christ useth to reform the chureh withall . 2. all errours . object . answ . 1. unbeseeming the gospel . though the truth carry its evidence in it self , and the word of god is greater then all the testimonies of men ; yet for their sakes that are weak , i have inserted the judgments of some godly men ( as i have accidentally met with them ) who have spoken of these things in the spirit ; that so you may see the truth though it hath but few followers , yet it hath some . melancton on psal. 110. v. 3. — habebis populum , non coactum gladio , sed verbo collectum , & laeto corde amplectentem evangelium , & te sponte celebrantem . discernit igitur ecclesiam ab imperiis mundanis , & externam servitutem a cultibus cordis accensis voce evangelii & a spiritu sancto . — ag. religio cogi non vult , doceri expetit . immunitate non stabilitur , sed evertitur . polan . — this charls to whom leo gave the title of the most christian king , was a great conquerer , and overcame many nations with the sword , and as the turk compelleth to his faith , so he compelled with violence to the faith of christ ; but alas the true faith of christ whereunto the holy ghost draws mens hearts , through preaching the word of truth , he knew not , &c. tindal . fides sua sponte non coacte agere vult . luth. christus non voluit●vi & igne cogere homines ad fidem . luth. haereticos comburere , est contra voluntatem spiritus . luth. he hath given in the church the sword of the spirit to inforce with , and not the sword of the magistrate . prorsus diversa ratio est regni christi & mundi . mundani magistratus quae volunt imperant , & subditi coguntur obedientiam praestare . at in regno christi , quod non est mundana , aut pontificia dominatio , sed spirituale regnum , nihil simile geritur , sed quivis alterius judex , & quilibet alteri subjectus est . at tyranni & animicidae illi , nihil morantes vocem christi , regnum meum non est de hoc mundo , ex ecclesia , politiam civilem , seu potius pontificium imperium constituerunt . ●uth . — quare ipsam sedem bestiae nego , nihil moratus sit ne bonus vel malus , qui in ea se det . sedes inquam quae sit super omnes sedes nulla est in ecclesia super terram jure divino , sed omnes sunt aequales , quia una fides , unum baptisma ; unus christus , &c. luth. where there is no worldly superiority over one another , there is no worldly compulsion . of one another . in the naturall body , there is no convocation of many members to govern one , or of more members to govern fewer , but the foot performes its office without being under the authoritative power of the hands , yea each member performs its office aright , without being in subordination to another , by the guidance of that head to which it is united , and of that spirit that dwels in it ; each member having an immediate influence of the head upon it self , though it may outwardly seem to be further from the head then another member . and thus it is in beleevers and congregations . — quid autem vi & coactione opus vobis est , qui hujusmodi certamen decertatis , in quo cogi nemo debet ? ulrichus ab hutten , to the councel of priests . what need you the power of the magistrate to defend the truth , who have so many scriptures to defend it ? the truth of god being to be defended by the word of god , and not by the power of men . idem . i could produce many more testimonies but these are sufficient to shew ; that i am not alon in this point , against forcible reformation ; but have the armory of david , to defend it withall , on which there hange a thousand bucklers , all shields of mighty men . 2. unsutable to christs kingdome . isa. 11. 9. isai. 60. 18. 3. a willing people . psal. 110. 3. 3. humane institution is set up . 4. it brings men into blind obedience . 5. it makes hypocrites . 6. causes disturbances . 7. christ useth no such outward force . 2. neither commanded his apostles . 1. object . 2. object . answ . 3 , b ject . answ . 4. object . answ . 5. obj. answ . 6. obj. ans. 7. obj. answ ▪ psal. 72. 12. 2. gods kingdome . de non temerandis ecclesiis a tract of the rights and respect due vnto churches. written to a gentleman, who hauing an appropriate parsonage, imploied the church to prophane vses, and left the parishioners vncertainely prouided of diuine seruice, in a parish neere there adioyning. by sr. henry spelman knight. spelman, henry, sir, 1564?-1641. 1616 approx. 132 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 119 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a12763) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 648) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1475-1640 ; 1365:02) de non temerandis ecclesiis a tract of the rights and respect due vnto churches. written to a gentleman, who hauing an appropriate parsonage, imploied the church to prophane vses, and left the parishioners vncertainely prouided of diuine seruice, in a parish neere there adioyning. by sr. henry spelman knight. spelman, henry, sir, 1564?-1641. the second edition enlarged with an appendix. [10], 196 p. printed by iohn beale, and are to be sold by william welby, at london : 1616. on title page edition statement is printed after "adioyning". the second edition of stc 23067, published in 1613. another issue of stc 23067.8 with cancel title page--cf. stc. errata on verso of a6. some print show-through; pages 3-4 and 177-78 stained. page 170-end from cambridge university library copy spliced at end. reproduction of the original in the union theological seminary (new york, n.y.). library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng church polity -early works to 1800. church property -england -early works to 1800. secularization -early works to 1800. 2004-09 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-09 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-10 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2004-10 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-01 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion de non temerandis ecclesiis . a tract of the rights and respect dve vnto churches . written to a gentleman , who hauing an appropriate parsonage , imploied the church to prophane vses , and left the parishioners vncertainely prouided of diuine seruice , in a parish neere there adioyning . the second edition enlarged with an appendix . by sr. henry spelman knight . at london imprinted by iohn beale , and are to be sold by william welby . 1616. deo & ecclesiae . act. 28. 24. some were perswaded with the things that were spoken , and some beleeued not . the printer to the reader . this small tract , now aboue two yeeres past , was by mee printed for that worthy knight the authour thereof , with no intent to haue it published : and being hitherto by me suppressed from reprinting here at home ; i find it to bee of late time printed in scotland ( contrary both to the authours and my expectation ) and dedicated by another man to the bishops and cleargy there , and so made more publike , being of it selfe priuate , then was first intended : which ( i suppose ) had the author knowen , or once misdoubted the sequell , instead of de non temerandis ecclesiis , hee would haue studied another title , de non temerandis scriptis alienis : that his writings might not be impropriated , when benefices are made proper . wherefore finding many st●ps in 〈◊〉 from his copie , i haue ( as well in the right of the authour as of my selfe to whom the right of the sole printing belonged ) caused it to be reprinted . and though at th● time of the putting it to the presse , i could not con●erre with the author , he being then in the countrey , yet hath it pleased him since his comming home , to adde something more vnto it , as his leasure would permit him ; which i haue annexed to the end therof . and thus haue i attempted to make a priuate worke publike , lest the faults of other men , should vniustly he cast vpon him , that deserued so well in so rare an argument . farewell . to the reader . al the vessels of the kings house , are not gold , or , siluer , or for vses of honour . some be common stuffe , & for meane seruices : yet profitable . of the first sort , i am sure this tract is not . whether of the other or no ; i leaue that to thy iudgemēt . to deale plainly ; my selfe haue no great opinion of it ; as finding mine owne imperfections and writing it only vpon a priuat occasion to a priuat friend , without curious obseruation of matter or method . but hauing also written a greater worke ( much of the same argument ) and intending to publish , or suppresse it , as i see cause : i thought it not vnfit ( vpon some encouragement ) to send this forth ( like a pinnesse or post of aduice ) to make a discovery of the coast , before i aduenture my greater ship. if i receiue good aduertisement , i shal grow the bolder . howsoeuer , take this i pray thee , as it is : and let my zeale to the cause , excuse mee in medling with matters beyond my strength . h. s. a letter , shewing the occasion of this treatise . to the worshipful his most louing vnckle , fr : sa . &c. my good vncle , the speeches that past casually betweene vs at our last parting , haue runne often since in my minde ; and so ( perhaps ) haue they done in yours . you complained ( as god would haue it ) that you were much crost in the building you were in hand with , vpon a peece of gleabe of your appropriate parsonage at congham . i answered , that i thought god was not pleased with it , insomuch as it tended to the defrauding of the church , adding ( amongst some other words ) that i held it vtterly vnlawfull to keepe appropriate parsonages from the church , &c. but our talke proceeding , i perceiued that as god had alwaies his portion in your hart , so in this , though it concerned your profit , you seemed tractable . it much reioyced mee , and therefore apprehending the occasion , i will be bold to adde a continuance to that happy motion : ( so i trust , both you and i , shall haue cause to terme it ) and besides , to giue you some tribute of the loue and duty i long haue ought you . therefore ( good vncle ) as your heart hath happily conceiued these blessed sparks , so in the name and blessing of god , cherish and enflame them . no doubt they are kindled from heauen , like the fire of the altar , and are sent vnto you from god himselfe , to bee a light to you in your old daies ( when your bodily eies faile you ) to guide your feete into the way of peace , that is , the way & place from whence they came . so alwaies i pray for you , and rest , westmin . aug. 17. 1613. your louing and faithfull nephew , henry spelman . errata . pag. 1 ● . line 5. read , all his goods . p. 60. 1. r. concurre . p. 124 l. 11. r. therefore he that inlarged the termes of the law ( first set forth by iohn rassall ) also . p ▪ 145. l. 14. r. supple . p. 178 , ● . 8. 1. 〈…〉 p. 175. l. 21. r. kings edition . de non temerandis ecclesiis . of the rights and respect due vnto the church . in somuch as the rights & duties that belong to our churches are in effect contained vnder the name of a rectory or parsonage : i wil first define , what i conceiue a rectory or parsonage to be , according to the vsuall forme and manner thereof . a rectory or parsonage , is a a spirituall liuing , composed of land , tythe , and other b oblations of the people , c separate or dedicate to god in any congregation , for the d seruice of his church there , and for the maintenance of the gouernour or minister thereof , to whose charge the same is committed . by this definitiō it appears , that the ordinary liuing or reuenew of a parsonage , is of 3 sorts : the one in land , cōmonly called the glebe : another in tithe , which is a set and regular part of our goods rendered to god. the third , in other offrings and oblations bestowed vpon god and his church , by the people , either in such arbitrable proportion as their owne deuotion moueth them , or as the lawes or customes of particular places doe require them . 2 though i inuert order a little , i will first speake of tithes , because it is gods ancient demain , and the nobler part of this his inheritance , founded primar●ly , vpon the lawe of nature , ( as the other bee also after their manner . ) for the lawe of nature teacheth vs that god is to bee honoured : and that the honour due vnto him , cannot bee performed without ministers , nor the ministers attende their function without maintenance . and therefore seeing god is the supreame lord and possessor of all , and giueth all things vnto vs that we are maintained with , it is our duty , both in point of iustice and gratuity , to render something backe againe vnto him , as acknowledging this his supremacie and bounty ; as honouring him for his goodnesse ; as a testimony of the worship , loue , and seruice we owe him ; and lastly , as a meanes whereby these duties and seruices may be performed to him . this , i say , the verie lawe of nature teacheth vs to doe : and this the lawe of god requireth also at our hands : but what the set portion of our goods should bee , that thus wee ought to render backe vnto god , i cannot say the lawe of a nature hath determined that . but the wisdome of all the nations of the world , the practise of all ages , the example of the patriarches b abraham and c iacob , the d approbation and commandement of almighty god himselfe , and the constant e resolution of his chvrch vniuersally , hath taught & prescribed vs to render vnto him the tenth part : and that this tenth part or tithe , being thus assigned vnto him , leaueth now to be of the nature of the other nine parts ( which are giuen vs for our worldly necessities ) and becommeth as a thing dedicate & appropriate vnto god. for it is said , leuit. 27. 30. all the tythe of the land , both of the seed of the ground , and of the fruit of the trees , is the lords : yea more then so , it is holy vnto the lord. and againe ( verse 32. ) euerie tithe of bullocke , and sheep , and of all that goeth vnder the rodde , the tenth shall bee holy vnto the lord. he saith , holy vnto the lord ; not that they were like the sanctified things of the temple , which none might touch but the annointed priests ) but holy and seperate from the vse and iniurie of secular persons , and to bee disposed onely , to and for the peculiar seruice and peculiar seruants of god. and therefore in the 28. verse , it is said , to be seperate from the common vse , because it is separate , and set apart vnto the lord. 3 but some happily will say , that this vse of tithing rises out of the leuiticall lawe , and so ended with it . i answere , that it was receiued and practised by abraham , and a iacob diuers hundred yeeres before it came to the leuites . for it is said that abraham gaue tithe to melchisedeck , gen. 14. 20. and that leuy himselfe paid tythe also in the loines of abraham , heb. 7. 9. melchisedecke was the image of chrst , and his church ; abraham of the congregation of the faithful . therfore though leuy receiued tithes afterward , by a particular grant from god , for the time : yet now hee paide them generally with the congregation , in the loines of abram vnto the priesthood of christ , heere personated by melchisedeck : which being perpetual , & an image of this of the gospell , may well note vnto vs , that this dutie of tythe , ought also to bee perpetuall . and therfore b chrysostome saith : that abraham heerein was ovr tutor : not the tutor of the iewes . and in somuch as abraham paid it not to a priest that offered a leuiticall sacrifice of bullocks and goates : but to him that gaue the elements of the sacrament of the gospell , c bread and wine : it may also well intimate vnto vs , to what kinde of priest we are to pay our tithes : namely , to him that ministreth vnto vs the sacrament of bread and wine , which are onely those of the gospell , and not the leuiricall priests . so that our tythe paide in this kinde , cannot bee said leuiticall : as also for that the leuitical tythes , were onely of things d renewing and increasing : whereas abraham and iacob paid them of all : as if they had followed the cōmandement of the apostle ; let him that is taught in the word , make him that hath taught him part taker of c al. gal ▪ 6. 6. god also requireth this dutie of tythe by his owne mouth , as of olde belonging vnto him , before the leuites were called to the seruice of the tabernacle : and before they were named in scripture . for they are not named till exodus . 38. 21. and it is said in exodus 22. 29. thine bundance of thy liquor shalt thou not keepe backe : meaning tithes and first fruits , and therfore ierome doubteth not so to translate it ; thy tithes and first fruits shalt thou not keepe backe . and in this manner of speech , the word keepe backe , sheweth that it was a thing formerlie due vnto god : for wee cannot say , that any thing is kept backe , or with-holden that was not due before . therefore wee finde no originall commondement of giuing tithe vnto god : but vpon the first mentioning of them in leuiticus , they are positiuely declared to bee his , as a part of his crowne , and ancient demaine ; for it is there said , cap. 27. 30. all the tithe of the land is the lords . and moses commandeth not the people a new thing : but declareth the right that of olde belonged to god : namely , that all the tithes of the land was his . other phrases of scripture doe confirme this ; for afterward when tithes came to be assigned to the leuites : god doth not say , the children of israel shal giue their tithes to the leuites ▪ but he saith , behold i haue giuen them to the leuites . and continuing this his claime vnto them , against those that many hundred yeeres after disseised him of them : hee complaineth , malachy . 3. 8. that they that withheld their tyths from the leuites , spoiled him himselfe . but hauing handled this argument more largely in a greater worke : i will heare close it vp with opposing against these kindes of aduersaries , not onely the reuerend authority of of those ancient and most honourable pillars of the church . ss . a ambrose , b augustine , c hierome , and d chysostome , ( who though they runne violently with saint paul , against such ceremonies , as they conceiued to to be leuiticall ; yet when they come to speake of tithes , admit , maintaine , and command the vse thereof : ) but also the resolution of many ancient e counsels and a multitude of other f fathers & doctors of the church in their seu●rall ages : all of them concurring in opinion , that tithes belong iustly vnto god ; and many of them commanding all men euen vpon perill of their soules not to withholde them : which argument s. augustin himselfe pathetically maintaineth , in a particular sermon of his to this purpose . and though it be a great question among the learned , whether they bee du● in queta parte , iure diuino ( which requireth a larger discourse ) yet i neuer read of many that impugned them absolutely . lieutardus , who liued about 1000 yeeres after christ , taught the payment of them to bee superfluous and idle , and then growing desperate , drowned himselfe , as it were to giue vs a badge of this doctrine . 4 touching oblations and offrings . the fathers vnder a this name accounted all things , that were giuē or dedicated to the seruice of god. and in the first ages of christiā religiō ( after the great persecutions ) the church by this meanes began so to abound in riches , that the good emperours b themselues , were constrained to make laws ( not vnlike our statutes of mortemaine ) to restrain the excesse thereof : for feare of impouerishing their temporall estate in those daies , many churches had treasuries for keeping these oblations ( as the storehouses at hierusalem , appointed by c hezechias , for the temple ) but the succeeding ages , contracted them into chests : and in these later times , the parsons pocket may well enough containe them . i shall not neede . therefore , to spend many words in a small matter : for all the oblations now in vse , are in effect the two-peny easter offrings , and a fewe other such like : which because the owners of appropriate parsonages shall not ignorantly conuert vnto their owne benefit : i will shewe them why they were paied , and why they haue them . saint paul ordained in the churches of galatia & corinth , that euery one vpō the lords day should yeeld somewhat to god for the saints . 1 , cor. 16. ● ▪ ● but this ( being once a weeek ) came too thick & too often about . therfore in d tertullians time the vse was to doe it monthly , and ( at last ) at pleasure . but it was euer the ancient vse of the primitiue church ( as appeareth by e justin & cyprian ) that al● that come to the holy communion , did according to their abilities , offer something of their substance to god , for charitable vses and maintenance of the ministers . therefore f cyprian sharply taxeth a rich matron , that receiued the communion , and offered nothing . locuples & diues & dominicum celebrare te credis , quae g corban omnino non respicis &c. what ? ( saith hee ) art thou able and rich ? and dost thou thinke that thou celebratest the lords supper , which bringest nothing to the treasurie ? so ( irenaeus saith ) h that it was the vse of the church through the world in his time , and receiued from the apostles ; to offer something of the blessings that they liued by , as the first fruits thereof , to him that gaue these things vnto them . which i zanchius vnderstandeth to bee meant of offrings at the communion : giuen to holy vses , and for reliefe of the poore of the church : commending it for an excellent custome , and complaining that it is now discontinued . but to this end , and in imitation hereof , are our easter and communion offrings ( as also those , at , & for christnings , burials , &c. which i will not now speake further of ) at this day made , and therefore let proprietaries consider with what conscience they can swallow and digest them . 5 touching the land , glebe , and howses , belonging to parsonages ( which i would haue called gods fixt inheritance , but that i see it is moueable : ) i cannot say that they are gods ancient demaines , in the same forme that tithes are , and as our clergie enioieth them , but the warrant and ground thereof , riseth out of the word of god , who not onely gaue vs a president thereof , whē hee appointed cities for the leuites to dwel in , with a conuenient circuit of fields for the maintenance of their cattell , num. 35. 2 , &c. but commanded also the children of israel ( and in them all the nations of the world : ) that in diuision of their land , they should offer an oblation to the lord , an holy portion of the land for the priest to dwell on , and to build the house of god vpon : ezeck 45. 1 , & 4. so that the houses and lands that our ancestors haue dedicated to god in this manner , for the churches and ministers of this time : are now also his right and iust inheritance , as well as those which the israelites assigned for the house of god , and leuites of that time ▪ and commeth vpon the same reason and in lieu thereof . but because it is vncertain when and how they were brought into the church , i will say something touching that point . in the time of the apostles the vse was ( as appeareth acts 2. 45. & acts 4. 34 , & 35. ) to sell their lands , and bring the money only , to the apostles . for the church being then in persecution , and the apostles not to remaine in any particular place , but to wander all ouer the world , for preaching the gospell : they could not possesse immoueable inheritances : and therefore receiued onely the money they were sold for , distributing it as occasion serued . but after when the church obtained a little rest , & began to be settled : a it found much casualty in pecuniary contributions , and chused therefore rather to retaine the lands themselues , giuen for the maintenance of gods priests and ministers : then ( by suffering the same to be sold ) to furnish the time present with abundance , and leaue the future time to hazard and vncertainety . heereupon the fathers in the b primitiue church , as well before constantine ( as appeareth by his owne edicts , and by c origen d eusebius , and the epistles of e pius , and f vrban ) as after : began to accept & retaine the lands thus giuen , and to leaue them ouer to their successors for a perpetual dowry of the church . and this vpon experiēce was found to be so godly and worthy a course , that it not onely receiued the applause of all succeeding ages : but commendeth for euer vnto vs their temperance , in desiring no more then for present necessity , their zeal in prouiding for posterity , and their great wisdome , ( or rather , propheticall spirit ) which fore-sawe so long before hand that , deuotion though it were 〈◊〉 at one time hot & feruent , yet , at another it might be cold enough : and therefore when time serued , they would by this meanes prouide that the church for euer , should haue of her own , to maintaine her selfe wi●hall . vpon this ensued many godly prouisiōs for endowment of churches , and for annexing their liuings so vnto them , as neither the variety of time , nor the impiety of man ( if it were possible ) should euer haue diuorced them ; as appeareth by a multitude of ancient councels , canons , statutes , and decrees of the g church , h emperours , and i princes , to that purpose . therefore whilest the world burned so with that sacred fire of deuotion , towards the aduancement of the glory of god : that euery man desired to sanctifie his hand , in the building of churches , lest such holy monuments for want of due maintenance , should ( in proces of time ) becom , either contēptible , or vnprofitable . it was at length ordained , in k aurel. concil . 4. ( an. 545. ) cap. 33. and l concil . valentin . ( an. 855. ) cap. 9. that , whosoeuer builded a church , should assigne vnto it a * plough-land , furnished for the maintenance of the parson thereof . by vertue of these councels ( as i take it ) were the founders of churches in france first compelled to assure liuings to those churches . and it was also prouided by the third councel of m tolledo in spaine , that no bishop might consecrate any church , till sufficient maintenance ( which n chrysostome calleth the dowry of the bride ) were assigned to it . but because these were forraigne , and prouinciall councels , not generall : they bound not our countrey , otherwise then by doctrin and example . therefore it was heere decreed afterward , to the same effect in a o synod at london vnder anselme arch-bishop of canterbury , anno domini 1105. h. 1. 3. and though the lawes of our church began then first ( as farre as i yet can finde ) to constrain our country-men to giue endowments to the churches that they builded ; yet we were taught before ( by the custome and example of our precedent auncestors , as well , as by our dutie , out of the word of god , to do the same ▪ as appeareth by many presidents , whereof i will onely alleadge one , ( but aboue others , that most famous ) of * ethelwulphvs king of west-saxony , who ( in the yeere of our lord 855 ) as p ingulphus saxo , and q simeon dumelmens . report , by the aduice and agreement of all his bishops and nobility : gaue , not onely the tithe of the goods , but the r tenth part of the land through his kingdome for euer , to god and the churches , free from all secular seruices , taxations , and impositions whatsoeuer . in which kind of religious magnificence , as our succeeding kings haue also abounded : so haue they from s time to time , as well by parliament lawes , as by their royall charters , confirmed these and other the rights of the church , with many solemne t vows and impreceations against all that should euer attempt to violate the same . therefore if these things had not bin primarily due vnto god by the rule of his word , yet are they now his , and seperate from vs , by the voluntary gift and dedication of our ancient kings and predecessours : as was the u tribute of a third part of a shekell , which nehemiah and the iews , out of their free bountie , couenanted yeerely to giue vnto god for the seruice of his house . for , as saint peter x saith to ananias : whilest these things remained , they appertained vnto vs , and were in our owne power ▪ but now , when wee haue not onely vowed them , but deliuered them ouer into the hands and possession of almighty god ( and that , not for superstitious and idle orders , but meerly for the maintenāce of his publike diuine worship , & the ministers thereof ( they are not now arbitrable , nor to be reuoked by vs , to the detriment of the church . 6 churches being erected and endowed : they and their liuings , were ( as i say ) dedicated vnto god. first , by the solemne vowe and oblation of the founders : then by the solemne act of the bishoppe , who to seperate these things from secular & prophane imployments , not onely ratified the vow and oblation of the patron or founders : but consecrated also the church it self : vsing therein great deuotion , many blessings , praiers , works of charity , and some ceremony , for sanctifying the same to diuine vses . therefore also haue the ancient a councels added many fearefull curses against all such as should either violate it , or the rights thereof . this consecration , master a perkins calleth a dedication , but confesseth it to haue beene in vse in this manner , about the yeere of christ 300. ( which is within the time of the primitiue church ) onely he admitteth not , that it was then performed with ceremony and the signe of the crosse ; which heere i will not stand vppon , nor to shew the greater antiquity thereof , ( though i thinke it may well bee prooued . ) for athanasius being in those daies accused by the arians , of ministring the communion in a church not consecrated , excused himselfe to haue done it vpon necessity . and a theodoret reporteth , that constantine ( then likewise ) cōmanded , all those that were at the councel of fyrus , should come to * aelia : and that others should be assembled from all parts , for * consecration of the churches , builded by him . which sheweth it to be so notorious and generall an vse at that time , and to haue such vniuersal approbation ; as it could not , but haue a roote also from elder ages , though there cannot be many presidents found thereof , for that the christians being then in persecution , might hardly build , or dedicate any churches , but were constrained to vse priuat houses , and solitary places for their assemblies . yet , euen those houses , hadde ( as it seemeth ) some consecration , for they were most commonly called * aedes sacrae , holy houses , & haue left that name , ( to this day ) amongst vs , for our churches , as a testimony of their sanctification , whereof i shal speake more anon . * eusebius also saith : that insomuch as the holy houses and temples of that time , were thus dedicated and consecrated vnto god , the vniuersall lord of all : therefore they receiued his name , & were called in greek 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ( in lattin , dominica ) the lords houses : which name , saith he , was not imporsed . vpon them by man : but by himselfe onely , that is lord of all . of this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , commeth the saxon word cyric or kyrk : and ( by adding a double aspiration to it ) our vsuall word chyrch or church , as it were to put vs euer in mind , whose these houses are : namely , the lords houses : like that , which iacob dedicating vnto god , called ( bethel : ) that is , the house of god. but both church and church-liuings were thus solemnely deliuered into gods possession ; and therefore all ages , councels and fathers ( that euer i yet haue met with ) account them holy and inuiolable things . and hereupon they are termed , patrimonium christi , dos ecclesiae , dos sponsae christi , and sacrata possessio , or praedium sanctum . for , euery thing that a man doth separate vnto the lord from the common vse , whether it be man , or beast , or land of his inheritance , it is holy to the lord : leuit. 27. 28. and in what sort i vnderstand the word holy , i haue before declared . 7 as then the law of nature , primarily taught all nations in the world to giue these things vnto god ▪ so the very same law , also taught them that it was sacriledge and impiety to pull them backe againe : yea , the very heathē , counted the things thus seuered vnto their gods : to be sancta & inuiolanda . and saint augustine expoundeth , sanctum illud esse , quod violare nefas est . it is execrable wickednes , to violate that that is holy . pharo would not abridge the priests of thei● diet , or land : no not in the great famin . the very barbarous nations of the world , euen by the instinct of nature , abhorred this impietie diodorus siculus noteth of the gaules , that though they were a people , aboue all others most couetous of gold : yet hauing aboundance thereof , scattered in all parts of their temples , to the honour of their gods : none was found so wicked amongst them , as to meddle with any of it . i could alledge a multitude of heathen stories to this purpose . but i will not weaue the wollen yearne of the gentiles , into the fine linnen garments of the christians ; i meane , i will not mingle profane arguments , in a discourse of christian piety for the sheep that are of the fold of christ , are tied onely to heare his voice , and to follow that , which if they doe not , they are thereby knowne to bee goats , and not of his fold . 8 the cause why i touched vppon this one heathen example , is to aggrauate the manifold sins of vs christians , in this point . for if they that knew not god , were so zealous of the glory of their idols : how much more is it to our condemnation , if wee that know him , doe lesse regard him ? if it goe hard with tyrus and sydon in the day of iudgement that sinned ignorantly ; how much harder will it bee with corasin and bethsaida that sin presumptuously : especially with capernaum that despiseth her lord god and master , iesus christ him . selfe ? what is to despise him ; if to robbe him of his honor , be not despise him ? or what is to rob him of honour , if to take from him the things giuen him for maintenance thereof , bee not to rob him ? therefore when the children of israel withheld their tithes & offerings from the leuites , hee crieth out in malachy 3. 8. that himselfe was robbed and spoiled : and was so highly offended therewith , that hee cursed the whole nation for it . and to make this sin appeare the more monstrous , he conuinceth the offenders therein : not onely to bee violaters of his legall ordinances , but euen of the very lawe of nature , written in the heart of euery man. for , saith he , will any man spoile his gods ? as if hee should say : can such a man bee found as will , or dares commit that sinne , that all the nations of the world , euen by the instinct of nature , account to bee so horrible and impious ? to spoile his gods : what his owne gods ? some were found , that now and then aduentured to spoile the gods of other nations ( yet not without punishment ) but fewe or none that i reade of ( till these latter daies ) that spoiled their owne gods , in apparent and ouert manner , as the lawyers terme it . i count it not ouert and apparant , when we doe as ananias and saphira did : pinch & detract from god , somewhat of that we vowed to giue : nor , when we doe as the children of israel heere did ; withhold that which wee ought to pay out of our own goods ( yet both these were heinous sinners , and dreadfully punished . ) but i call it ouert & apparant , when we throw our selues into a more dangerous sinne , by inuading openly the deuotions of other men , and taking that from god and from his church , ( as athalia did ) which wee neuer gaue vnto it , euen the lands and liuings thereof : yea , the churches themselues . 8 doubtlesse we haue much to feare in this point : for as it is a transcendent sinne ; so dauid labouring to match it with a transcendent punishment , bestoweth a whole psalme , ( viz. the * 83. ) in inueying particularly against these kind of sinners ▪ such ( expresly ) as would take to themselues the houses of god in possession ; for that onely is the very center of the psalme , and therein do all the lines and proiections of the prophets inuectiues , incurre . first hee maketh a flat opposition between god and them : and therefore calleth them his enemies . then he describeth the nature of these kinde of enemies : namely , that they are murmuring enemies , as grudging , and enuying at the prosperity of the church : malicious enemies : as hating , or hurting the seruice of god. proud enemies , as lifting vp their heads against god : ver . 2. craftie enemies ; as imagining how to beguile the church . conspiring enemies ; as taking counsell together against gods secret ones ( as the prophet calleth them ) that is , gods seruants & ministers : ver . 3. and lastly , confederate enemies : as cōbining them selues one by example of another , to perseuere in their course of wronging and violating the church : vers . 5. yet for all this , those against whom the prophet thus enueigheth , did not that they desired ▪ they discouered their malitious purpose by word of mouth , saying : let vs take to our selues the houses of god in possession . but they onely said it , they did it not . their will was good , but their power failed . our will and power haue both preuailed : for wee haue got the houses of god into our possession : his churches , his lands , his offerings , his holy rights . we haue gotten them , and led them away captiue , bound in cheines of yron : that is , so conueied and assured vnto vs , by deed , by fine , by act of parliament , as if they neuer should returne again vnto the church . but heare what dauid saith to those of his time . mark how he praieth for them . marke what strange and exquisite punishments he designeth to them : and that in as many seuerall all sorts , as there are seuerall branches in this kind of sinne . first , hee praieth , that god would deale with them , as hee did with the madianites : vers . 9. that is , that as geaeon by trumpets and lampes , strooke such a terrour in the night time , into the hearts of the madianites , that the whole army fell into confusion , drew their swords one vpon another , were discomfited and 120 thousand of them slaine . so that god by his trumpets , the preachers of his word , by his lamps , which is , the light of the gospell , would confound in like manner , the enemies and spoilers of his church , that sleepe in the night of their sinne : and that hee would make them like oreb , and zeb , like zeba and salmana : verse 11. all which were strangely ouerthrowne , died violent deaths , and beeing glorious princes of their nations , became like the filthy & lothsome dung of the earth : vers . 10. and iudges ● . 25. and 8. 21. but doth the prophet stay here ? no , he goeth on with them : o my god , saith he , make them like a wheele . vers . 13. that is , wauering and vnstable in their actions : so as they may neuer bring their purposes to an end . yea , make them abiect and contemptible ; like the chaffe that the wind scattereth from the face of the earth : vers . 13. well , is hee now satisfied ? no. all this doth but whet his spirits to sharper imprecations . he now desireth that the very floudgates of gods wrath may be broken open vpon them ; and that the tempest of his indignation may rage at full against them : now he crieth out to god to consume them without mercy , yea and that in two terrible manners . one naturally , as the fire burneth vp the wood . the other miraculously , as the flame censumeth the mountaines : vers . 14. persecute them euen so , ( saith hee ) with thy tempest , and make them afraid with thy storme . make their faces ashamed , o lord , that they may seeke thy name . let them be confounded and vexed euer more and more , let them bee put to shame and perish : vers . 15 , 16 , 17. how should the wit of man discouer and prosecute a sin in more vehement and horrible manner ? or , what shall make vs to abstaine from such haughty sinnes ? if all this preuaile not . well , if to take the houses of god into possession , bee thus ? take them that will for mee . 9 you see how dauid in this his sacred fury , was admirably caried against this sinne . well therefore might hee say : the zeale of thine house hath eaten me vp : psal. 69. 9. yet , he spake it not of himselfe alone : but in the person also of our sauiour iesus christ ; who in prosecution of dauids zeale , did that in this case ; that hee neuer did at any time else in all his life . in all other cases he shewed himselfe like the pascall lambe , that euery body did eat and deuour● at pleasure ; and like the sheep that was dumbe before the shearer , euen when his very life was taken from him . but when he saw the golden fleece to be taken from the house of god : that is , when hee saw the church his beloued spouse , depriued and spoiled of the honour , reuerence , dutie and ornament , that belonged to her : then , as dauid did , he groweth into a sacred fury ; hee leaueth the mildnesse of the pascall lambe , and taketh vppon him the fiercenesse of the lion of iuda . then he beginneth to bestir him , and to lay about him . he whippeth out them that prophaned it ; driueth out their sheep & their oxen , though they were for the sacrifice : and ouerthroweth the table of the mony changers : iohn 2. 14. he would by no meanes indure such trumtrumpery to bee in his fathers house , nor his fathers house to made an house of merchandise : but , much lesse then , that merchandise should be made of his fathers house it selfe . o fearefull and most inhumane sinne , horresco referrens . but ere i depart from this place of scripture ; let me note one thing more out of it , for the greater reuerence of churches : that although our lord bee heer said , to haue cast these things out of the temple ; yet , in truth , they were not in the temple it selfe , but in the outward court or yard thereof . for within the inward parts of the temple , ( namely , the first , and second tabernacles ) did no man enter , but the leuite priests : and of them also , none into the second tabernacle , but the high priest. therefore , although our sauiour christ , were a priest for euer after the order of melchisedeck : yet because hee was not a priest of leuy : but of the tribe of juda ( of which tribe moses spake nothing touching the priesthood : heb. 7. 14. ) i take it , that a he neuer came within these parts of the temple : nor where the sacrifice was , but frequēted only b atrium populi , the outward court from the temple . for into this only , the c people resorted : to worship , pray , and heare the word of god expounded , not pressing further towards the temple : and in the middest whereof ( the d brasen stage which salomon praied vpon ) was erected . yet , this very place , this court , or outward yard , would not our sauiour permit to be prophaned ; neither with market matters , nor with carrying so much as a burthen or vessell through it : mark. 11. 16 : for though it were not so leuetically holy , as the temple : yet it was dedicated to god , with the temple : and taken often in the new testament , for the temple : as in the places before alledged : and acts 3. 2 , 3. by which reason the very church-yards themselues ( being dedicated with the churches , and the principall soile thereof : as an old statute witnesseth ) seeme also to haue in them a certaine kind of sanctification : and are not therefore to bee abused to secular and base imployments : as not onely the ancient fathers , by the canons of the church : but the present lawes of the land , haue well prouided for them . 10 but some will say , that the sanctification of the temple was leuiticall , and therefore abolished , and not to bee applied to our churches . i answere , the temple was sanctified lished : or remaineth to our churches . vnto three functions ; which also had three seuerall places assigned to them . the first , belonged to the diuine presence ; & had the custody of y● holiest types thereof ; the oracle , the arke , the mercy-seat , &c. and was therefore called sanctum sanctorum , or the holiest of all . the second , was for ceremoniall worship & attonement : namely , by sacrifice , oblations , and other leuiticall rites : the place thereof being the the sanctuary , ( wherein were the holy vessels ) and the court of priests , wherein the altar of burnt sacrifice did stand . the third , was for simple worshippe , praier , and doctrine ( without any pompe or ceremony : ) and the place of this , was the outward court , ( called , * atrium populi , and * salomons porich ; ) which therefore had in it no ceremoniall implement at all . the two first of these functions , with the places belonging to them ; were indeed particularly appropriate to the law. for , they were ceremoniall , mysticall , secret , leuiticall , iudaicall , and temporall-ceremoniall , as celebrated with much worldly pompe . mysticall , as figurating some spirituall things . secret ; as either performed behinde the veile or curtaine : or else sequestred & romote from the people . leuiticall ; as committed only to the administration ; of that tribe ▪ iudaicall ; as ordained onely for the saluation of that people . and temporall ; as instituted onely for a season , and not to continue . but the sanctification , of the third function , and of the place thereto appointed , was directly contrary in al the points alledged to the former two . first ( as i said before ) it was for simple worship , praier , and doctrine which were there to be performed and deliuered in all sinceritie , without any ceremony or ceremoniall implement vsed therein . secondly , there was no matter of mystery therein to be seene ▪ but whatsoeuer was mysticall in the law , or the prophets , was there expounded . thirdly , nothing there , was hidden or secret from the people , but acted wholly without the veile , and publikely for euery man. fourthly , it was not appropriate to the leuites , but common alike to all the tribes . fifthly , not ordained for the iewes particularly , but for all nations in generall . and lastly , not to endure for a time , ( as those other two of the law ) but to continue for euer : euen after the gentiles were called as well as the iewes : that is , during the time of the gospell , as well as the law. therefore , saith god , by isaias the prophet , cap. 56. 7. my house shall bee called an house of praier , to all nations . hee said not , an house of sacrifice to all nations : for the sacrifice ended , before the calling of the gentiles , and so they could haue no part thereof . nor an house of praier for the jewes onely , for then had the gentiles ( when they were called ) been likewise excluded . but an house of praier to all nations , that is , iewes and gentiles indifferētly : which therefore , must haue relation to the times of the gospel . and consequently , the sanctification of that house , and of that function , is also a sanctification of the churches of the gospel . we read not therefore , that christ reformed any thing in the other two functions of the temple ; for they were now , as at an end . but because this third function was for euer to continue to his church : therefore hee purgeth it of that that prophaned it ; restoreth it ( as hee did mariage ) to the originall sanctitie : and that the future world ( which was the time of the gospell ) might better obserue it , then the precedent , and time of the law had done ; hee reporteth , and confirmeth the decree , whereby it was sanctified : it is written , saith he , ( as producing the record and wordes of the foundation ) my house shall bee called an house of praier to all people . hee saith , my house , as excluding all other , from hauing any property therein ; for , god will bee ioynt-tenant with no man. and it shall bee , an house of praier for all people : that is , publike foreuer ; not priuate , nor appropriate to any ▪ nor a denne of theeues ; that is , no place of merchandise , or secular businesse , as saint i●rome expoundeth it . it must not be an impropriation ; no man can , or may hold it in that kind . the time also when our sauiour pronounced these words is much to the purpose as it seemeth to mee . for it was after he had turned out the oxen & doues ; that is , the things for the sacrifice . as though , hee thereby taught vs , that when the sacrificall function of the temple was ended : yet the sanctification thereof , to bee an house of prayer , for euer remained . 11 this doctrine of our sauiour , is continued vnto vs by saint paul : who , seeing the corinthians to profane the church with eating and drinking in it ▪ though much good might follow thereby , ( being orderly done ) as the encreasing of amity , and the reliefe of the poore ; yet because it was against the reuerence of the place : hee not onely reproueth them for it , demanding if they had not houses to eat and drinke in at home , but skaring them also ( by shewing the daunger they were falling into ) hee speaketh to them as with admiration : despise ye the church of god ? as if hee should say , is your religion now come vnto that ? or is that your religion , to despise the place that god hath sanctified vnto himselfe ; by making it , as saint ierome saith , triclineum epularum , a banqueting house . god wondered in malachy , that any should spoile their gods . and the holy ghost heere wondereth , that any should despise the materiall church : for so saint ierome expoundeth it . thus both of them wonder at one & the same thing : that any man should be so irreligious , as to profane the reuerence due vnto god , and that that is his . 12 so precise therefore were the ancient fathers in this point , that , that meeke saint of god , saint augustine , would by no meanes endure that any should vse clamors , or dācing within the vi●● of the church . yea , hee termeth them , miserable and wretched men that did it and denounceth against them , that if such came christians to the church , they went pagans home . but when the church it selfe came to be abused ! oh , how saint ambrose taketh it , euen against the emperour himselfe , great valentinian that required it for an arian : o ( saith hee ) let him aske that is mine , my lands , my goods , and whatsoeuer i possesse , i will not deny them ; yet are they not mine , but belong to the poore . verum ea quae diuina sunt , &c. saith hee , but those things that are gods , are not subiect to the authoritie of the emperour . if my lands ( i say ) be desired , enter them a gods name ; if my body , i will carry it him ; if hee will haue mee to prison , yea , vnto death , it pleaseth mee well , i will not defend my selfe with multitude of people , neither will i flie to the altar , desiring my life , but with all my heart will die for the altars . and after , in speaking of the impious souldiers : o that god ( saith hee ) would turne their hands from violating the church , and then let them turne all their weapons vpon mee , and take their fill of my bloud . and many such excellent speeches he hath for the sanctity of the church , and of the reuerēce due vnto it , in his oration , de basilicis tradendis . my purpose is to bee short ; i will not therefore now enter any further into the authorities of the fathers : or meddle with the councels and ancient canons of the church which abound so in this kind of zeale , and haue established it ( against the eustathians , m●ssalians , and fraticelli , * heretikes : and all other the enemies thereof ) with so many examples , admonitions , exhortations , precepts , threatnings , curses , and excommunications : as it requireth a booke alone to repeat them . 13 it seemeth a small thing to daunce in the church-yard , or to eate and drinke in the church . but sanctification ( saith ierome speaking on this matter ) consisteth also euen in the small things . therefore ecclesiasticus aduiseth vs , that we giue not the water passage , no not in a little . for he that oponeth the waters but a little , knoweth not how great a breach they will make at length . so is it to make an entrance into sin , or to breake the reuerence of holy things in trifles . therefore god punished seuerely the petty offenders in this kind : not corah onely and his company , that inuaded the high function of the priesthood : but euen him that gathered the stickes on the sabath day : numb . 15. 34. and poore vzzah himselfe ( whom dauid so much lamented ) that did , as it were , but stay the arke from shaking , ( 2. sam. 6. 6. and 1. chron. 13. 9. ) and yet died for it , because his hand was not sanctified to that purpose . 14 i conclude this point with the saying of salomon , pro. 20. 25. ( and let al men consider it : ) it is a snare for a man to deuoure that which is sanctified , and after the vowes , to enquire . a snare hath three properties . first , to catch suddenly . secondly , to hold surely . thirdly , to destroy certainly . so was vzza taken ere hee was aware : hee did but touch the arke , and presently hee was catcht . king vzziah did but meddle with the incense , and presently the leprosie was on his face : 2. chron. 26. 19. jeroboam did but stretch out his hand against the prophet , and presently it withered : 1. king. 13. 4. and as a man falleth suddenly into it : so is it as hard to get out . vzza died in it presently . vzziah languished in it all his life , and then died in it also , corah , dathan , and abiram , were no sooner caught in this snare , but it held them so surely , as when all israel else fled and escaped ; they , & their companions ( most miserable men ) were detained in it , to their notorious destruction . i might heere take iust occasion to remember what hath happened to many in this kingdom , that became vnfortunate after they medled with churches , and church-liuings . but i will run into no particularities . let those men , and those families , which are vnfortunate ( as wee terme them ) consider , whether themselues , their fathers , or some of their ancestors , haue not been fettered in this snare . and let the proprietaries of parsonages also well consider these things . for , if vzza died , that did but touch the arke to saue it : what shal become of them that stretch out their hands against churches to destroy them ? if the sticke-gatherer was stoned , for so small a prophanation of the sabbath ; what shall they looke for , that by destroying the churches , destroy also the sabbath it selfe , ( in a manner ) as taking away the place appointed to the publike sanctification thereof . and if corah , dathan and abiram , offended so hainously , in medling with the things of the leuiticall priesthood , though they imployed them to the seruice of god : what haue they to feare , that vsurpe the things of the gospel , & peruert thē wholly to their owne vse , from the seruice of god ? yea , that pollute his churches and houses of prayer to seruile & base offices : leauing the parishioners vncertenly prouided of diuine seruice , to the destructiō both of the priesthood it selfe , and of the seruice of god in generall . 15 but they will comfort themselues with this : that though the churches bee sanctified to some purpose , yet the sanctity thereof differeth from leuiticall sanctification : and that god doth not now kil any from heauen , for prophaning the things of the gospel , as he did then , for prophaning the things of the law ▪ i answer : the sanctity in deed of the one , differeth from the sanctity of the other . for the leuiticall things were sanctified by the hand of man , to be matter of ceremony ; but the churches of the gospel , are sanctified by our sauiour himselfe , to be houses of prayer . not that prayer is to be vsed onely in these places but that these places are onely to be vsed for prayer . and wee must not presume that god sleepeth because hee punisheth not ( now as he did of old ) the cōtemners of his worship ▪ for as the law consisted in visible & temporal things , so the punishments therin , were for the most part visible and temporal . but the gospel concerneth things inuisible and eternall , and therefore the punishments assigned therein , are for the most part , inuisible & eternall . 16 they haue also another comfort , and that is , that though these things were once spirituall , now they are made temporall by the lawes of dissolution ; and especially , by the stat. of 32. h. 8. cap. 7. it is true that those statutes apply diuers law-termes vnto these things that properly belong to temporall inheritances : and that the statute of 32. h. 8. hath made them demandable by originall writs , & hath giuen certain real actions , & other courses for recouering & conueying of them in temporall courts : because lay-men could not in former times haue sued for things of this nature in any court of the kingdom . but this prooueth not the things themselues to bee therefore temporall , ( no more then that an english man is a frenchman , because he saileth in a french bottome . ) for vpon the same reason ; the statute giueth also other actions ( for recouering of tithes and offerings withholden , &c. ) in the courts spiritual . they then that out of the one part of the statute wil haue them temporall , are by the other part in forced to confesse them still spirituall , and so to make them like a centaure : prolem biformem . it were very hard ( in my vnderstanding ) to ground a point of so great consequence , vpon subtiltie of words , and ambiguous implications , without any expresse letter of law to that purpose , especially , to make the houses and offerings of god , temporall inheritances . but i see it is a law question in my lord a dier , whether tithes be made lay or temporal by any words in those statutes . and therefore i must leaue this point to my masters of the law , who haue the key of this knowledge onely in their owne custody . yet i thinke i may bee so bold , as to say thus much out of their owne b bookes , that a statute , directly against the law of god , is void . if then tithes be things spirituall , and due de iure diuino , as many great c clarks , doctors , fathers , some councels , and ( that euer honorable iudge and oracle of law ) my lord coke himselfe in the second part of his d reports affirme them to be : i cānot see how humane laws should make them temporal . of the same nature therfore that originally they were of , of the same nature do i still hold them to cōtinue : for manēte subiecto , manet cōsecratio , manet dedicatio . time , place , and persons , do not change them , as i take it , in this case . c nabuchodonozor took the holy vessels of the temple , hee caried them to babylon , hee kept them there all his life , and at last left them to his ●onne and grandchildren : but all this while , the vessels still remained holy . yea , though they were comne into the hands of those that were not tied to the ceremonies of the law , and at length into the hands of them that had them by a lawfull succession from their fathers and grandfathers : yet as soone as they beganne to abuse them to prophane vses ; that very night balshazzer himselfe died for it , the line of nabuchodonozor ( that tooke them from the temple ) was extinct , and the kingdome translated to another nation : dan. 5. 2. 17 happily also , lay approprietaties comfort themselues , that they may hold these things by example of colleges , deanes and chapters , bishops of the land , and of diuers of our late kings & princes . before i speake to this point , i take it by protestation , that i haue no heart to make an apology for it . for i wish that euery man might drinke the water of his owne well , eate the milke of his own flock , and liue by the fruit of his owne vineyard . i meane , that euery member might attract no other nutriment , but that which is proper to it selfe . yet are they greatly deceiued , that draw any iuce of encouragement from these examples . for all these are either the seminaries of the church , or the husbandmen of the church , or the fathers and nurses of the church : all de familia ecclesiae , and consequently , belonging to the care of the church , and ought therfore to be susteined by it : for saint paul saith . hee that prouideth not for his owne , and namely for them of his household , he denieth the faith , and is worse then an infidell : 1. tim. 5. 8. a therefore before the statutes of suppression of abbies , those that were not meerely ecclesiasticall persons , yet if they were mixt , or had ecclesiasticall iurisdiction , they might by the lawes of the land , participate ecclesiasticall liuings , and b tithes particularly . and this seemeth to take some ground out of the word of god. for the prouinciall leuites ( as i may terme them ) whom c dauid seuered frō the temple , and placed abroad in the countrey to be rulers of the people , in matters pertaining to god , and the kings businesse , ( that is , spiritually and temporally : ) had their portions of tithes notwithstanding , as well as the other leuites that ministred in the temple . now , that the king is b persona mixta , endowed aswell with ecclesiasticall authority , as with temporall : is not only a sollid position of the common law of the land , but confirmed vnto vs by the continuall practise of our ancient kings , euer since , and before the conquest , euen in hottest times of popish feruency . for this cause at their coronations , they are not onely crowned with the diadem of the kingdome , and girt with the sword of iustice , to signifie their temporal authority , but are anointed also with the c oile of priesthood , and clothed , stola sacer dotali , and veste d dalmatica , to demōstrate this their ecclesiasticall iurisdiction , whereby the king is said in the law to be supremus ordinarius , and in regard thereof , amongst other ecclesiasticall rights , and prerogatiues belonging vnto him , is to haue al the e tithes ( through the kingdome ) in places that are out of any parish , for some such there be , and namely , diuers f forrests . but for all this : o! that his maiestie would bee pleased to remember syon in this point . 18 i grow too tedious , yet before i close vp this discourse , let mee say one thing more to the aproprietaries of churches , that happily , they hitherto haue not dreamed of . and that is , that by hauing these parsonages , they are charged with cure of soules , and make themselues subiect to the burthen that lieth so heauily vpon the head of euery minister : to see the seruice of god performed , the people instructed , and the poore relieued . for to these three ends and the maintenance of ministers , were parsonages instituted , as not onely the canons of the church , but the bookes of the law , and particularly the statutes of 15. r. 2. cap. 6. and 4. h. 4. ca. 12. doe manifestly testifie . and no man may haue them but to these purposes , neither were they oth●rwise in the hands of monasticall pe●sons , nor otherwise giuen to the king by the statute of dissolution , then a in as large and ample manner , as the gouernors of th●se religious houses had them , nor by him conueied otherwise to the subiects . for , nemo potest plus iuris in aliam transferre , quam ipse habet : no man may grant a greater right vnto another , then hee hath himselfe . and therefore , goe where they will , transeunt cum onere , they carry their charge with them . vpon these reasons proprietaries are still saide to bee b parsons of their churches , and vppon the matter , are as the incumbents c thereof , and the churches by reason of this their incumbencie , are full and not void . for otherwise the d bishop might collate , or the king present a clarke ( as to other churches ) as it seemeth by the argumēts of the iudges in the case between grendon & the bishop of lincolne in mr plowdens coment . where it is also shewed , that the incumbencie is a * spirituall function , and ought not to be conferred vppon any but spirituall persons , and such as may themselues doe the diuine seruice , and minister the sacraments . therefore , dier , l. chiefe iustice of the common pleas , there said , that it was an horrible thing , when these appropriations were made to prioresses and houses of nunnes , because that ( although they were religious persons , yet they could not minister the sacraments and diuine seruice . implying by this speech of his , that it was much more horrible for lay-men to hold them , that neither could doe these holy rites , nor were so much as spirituall persons to giue them colour ●or holding of spirituall things . therefore seriant * rastal , also termeth it a wicked thing , complaining ( in his time ) that it continued so long , to the hind●r●nce ( he saith ) of learning , the impouerishing of the ministry , and to the infamy of the gospell , and professors thereof . my lord coke also in the second part of his reports , saith , that it is recorded in history , that there were ( amongst other ) two grieuous persecutions , the one , vnder dioclesian ; the other vnder julian , named the apostata : for it is recorded , that the a one of them intending to haue rooted out all the professors and preachers of the word of god , occidit omnes presbyteros . but this notwithstanding , religion flourished for sanguis martyrum est semen ecclesiae : the bloud of the martyrs is the seed of the church ; and this was a cruel and grieuous persecution : but the persecution vnder the b other , was more grieuous and dangerous , quia ( as the history saith ) ipse occidit presbyrerium . he destroied the very order of priesthood . for hee robbed the church , and spoiled spirituall persons of their reuenues , and tooke all things from them whereof they should liue . and vpon this , in short time , insued great ignorance of true religion , and the seruice of god , and thereby great decay of christian profession . for none wil apply themselues or their sons , or any other that they haue in charge , to the study of diuinitie , when after long and painfull study , they shall haue nothing whereupon to liue . thus farre my lord coke . i alledge these legall authorities , and leaue diuinity , because the approprietaries of parsonages ( which shield themselues vnder the target of the law ) may see the opinion of the great lawyers of our owne time and religion , and what the bookes of the lawe haue of this matter , to the end , that we should not hang our consciences vpon so dangerous a pinne , nor put too great confidence in the equity of lawes , which we daily see , are full of imperfection , often amended , often altered , and often repealed . o how lamentable then is the case of a poore proprietary , that dying , thinketh of no other account , but of that touching his lay vocation , and then comming before the iudgment seate of almighty god , must answer also for this c spirituall function . first why he medled with it , not being called vnto it . then , why ( * medling with it ) he did not the duety that belonged vnto it , in seeing the church carefully serued , the minister thereof sufficientlie mainetained , and the poore of the parish faithfully releeued . this i say , is the vse whereto parsonages were giuen , and of this vse wee had notice before we purchased them : and therefore , ( not onely by the lawes of god and the church , but by the lawe of the land , and the rules of the chancery , at this day obserued in other cases ) wee ought onely to hold them to this vse , and no other . 19 it is not then a work of bounty and beneuolence to restore these appropriations to the church , but of duety and necessity so to doe . it is a worke of duty to giue that vnto god that is gods , mat. 22. 2. and it is a worke of necessity towards the obtaining remission of these sinnes . for saint augustine saith , non remittetur peccatum , nisi restituatur ablatum cum restitut potest : the sinne shall not be forgiuen , without restoring of that which is taken away , if it may be restored . it is duety , iustice , and necessity , to giue them backe vnto god. for if judas ( who was the first president of this sinne ) were a thiefe , as the holy ghost termeth him , for imbeasiling that which was committed vnto him for the maintenance of christ and his disciples , that is of the church : by the same reason , must it also be the euery to withhold these things which were giuen for the maintenāce of the church and ministers of christ. and herein it is a degree aboue that sinne of iudas , as robbery is aboue theft : for iudas onely detained the money ( deliuered vnto him ) closely and secretly ; but wee and our fathers , haue inuaded church-liuings , and taken them ( as it were by assault ) euen from the sacred body and person of the church . it is a great sinne to steale from our neighbour ; much greater ( euer● sacriledge ) to steale from god. if it were so hainous a fact in ananias to withholde part of his owne goods , which he pretended hee would giue vnto god , how much more is it in vs , presumptuously to reaue that from god , that others haue alreadie dedicated and deliuered vnto him . salomon saith ; hee that robbeth his father and his mother , and saith , it is no sinne , is the companion of [ a murtherer , or ] him that destroieth . but he that purloineth the things of god , robbeth his father , and he that purloineth the things of the church , robbeth his mother . and therefore that man is a companion of the destroier . the * fathers , the doctors , many great councels , and ancient lawes of the church , command , that things taken from the church , should be restored . and the church by her a ● preachers and ministers continually entreateth , vrgeth , and requireth all men to doe it . they therefore that doe it not , they refuse to heare the church : and then our saour christ , by his owne mouth , denounceth them b to bee as heathens and publicans , that is , excommunicate and prophane persons . if he refuseth ( saith our sauiour ) to heare the church also , let him be vnto thee as a heathen man , and a public in . mat. 18. 17. it is a fearefull thing not to heare the c church , but much more , not to heare christ himselfe . christ hath giuen vs a perpetuall lawe and commandement , touching things belonging to god : that wee should giue them to god. if we breake this law , we breake a greater lawe then that of the medes and the a persians : and therefore marke what the holy ghost concludeth vpon vs ; euery person that shall not heare this prophet ( christ iesus ) shall bee destroied out of the people . act. 3. 23. 20 to conclude then , as the philistims made hast to send home the b arke of god ; and the aegyptians to ridde themselues of the c people of god : so let vs ply our selues to render vnto god his lands and possessions with all speed . otherwise , as he strucke the philistims with emrods secretly , and the aegyptians with manifold scourges openly ; so onely himselfe knoweth , what hee hath determined against vs. and thus i end , with the saying of the blessed saint cypryan , nec teneri iam , nec amari patrimonium debet , quo quis & deceptus , & victus est . wee must now neither hold that patrimony , or liuing , ( no ) nor so much as take pleasure therein , whereby a man is entrapped and brought to destruction . and with that other of the noble saint augustine ; with what face canst thou expect an inheritance from christ in heauen , that defraudest christ in thy inheritance heere on earth ? therefore giue vnto caesar the things that are caesars , and vnto god the things that are gods. ❧ an epilogue . pardon mee good reader , though i haue neither satisfied thee , nor my selfe , in this little discourse . it is hard to bring a great vessell into a small creeke , an argument of many heads and branches , of much weight , variety and difficulty , into a fewe pages . it may bee thou thinkest the volume bigge enough for the successe that bookes of this nature are like to haue . i reiect not thy iudgement , yet would i not haue others thereby discouraged from pursuing this cause : for though peter fished all night and got nothing , yet hee made a great draught vnlooked for ) in the morning . hee that directed that net , giue a blessing to all our labours . for my owne part ( if i catch but one fish ) i shall thinke mine well bestowed . howsoeuer , it shall content me , and i thanke god for it , that he hath girded mee with so much strength as to strike one stroke ( though a weake one ) in his battell , and to cast one stone ( though a small one ) against the aduersaries of his church . some will say , i haue vsed too much salt and vineger in this discourse ; and that i haue bent the great altillery of gods iudgements and threatnings , vpon a piece of too light importance . i would the consciences of men were such , as oyle and butter might supply them . but i see they are for the most part ouergrowne with so hard a carnosity , as it requireth strong and potent corasiues to make an entrance into them . a preacher may shake them now and then with a sermon , as paul did faelix : but when the thunder and lightning are ceased , they are ( like pharaoh ) still where they were . yea some haue conscientas cauteriatas , as the apostle termeth them , censciences ●eared with an hot iron : so stupified , that dead lazarus may be raised , before they can bee moued . but god knoweth the heart of man , and bringeth water out of the hard rocke ; therefore though i haue spoken this ( as being iealous of the cause , ) yet in charity i will hope better euen of the hardest of them . onely let no man thinke it a light sinne , to keepe open the passage whereby the * wilde bore ( of barbarisme ) enters the lords vineyard , and whereby god is depriued of the honour due to his name . now at the parting , it may be thou desirest to know what successe this my labour had with the gentleman to whom i sent i● . in truth neither that i desired , nor that which i promised vnto my selfe . for ( so it pleased go● ) that euen the very day , the messenger brought it into norfolke , the party died . otherwise i wel l●oped , not to haue shot this arrow in vaine . but because it then missed the marke at which it was sent , ( and many thought not fit to loose it ; ) i haue now let it flie againe at randome with some notes and alterations , as the difference betweene priuate and publike things requireth : but still desiring that i might further haue shewed my mind in many passages hereof , ( and particularly touching tithes in quoto , and such parsonages as haue vicarage● well endowed ) which without making it almost a new worke , i could not doe ; and therefore resting vpon thy curieous interpretation , i leaue it to thee , ( for this time ) as it is . a sermon of st. augustines touching rendring of tithes . the occasion of this sermon or homily , was ministred vnto him by the time of the yeere , it being the 12. sunday after trinity , that is about the beginning of haruest . the scripture that he sitteth vnto it , is the 18. of luke . where the pharesie boasteth of his precise iustice in payment of tithes . it is the 219. sermon de tenipore : extant in the tenth tome of his works , and there extituled : de reddendis decimis . by the mercy of christ ( most beloued brethren : ) the daies are now at hand , wherein we are to reape the f●uits of the earth ▪ and therefore giuing thanks to god that bestoweth them , let vs bee mindfull to offer , or rather to render backe vnto him the tithes thereof . for god , that vouchsafeth to giue vs the whole , vouchsafeth also to require backe againe the tenth , not for his owne , but for our benefit doubtlesse . for so hath hee promised by his prophet , saying : * bring all the tithe into my barnes , that there may bee meate in my house ; and trie mee , saith the lord , in this point , if i open not the windowes of heauen vnto you , and giue you fruit without measure . lo , wee haue proued how tithes are more profitable vnto vs , then to god. o foolish men ! what hurt doth god command , that he should not deserue to bee heard ? for he saith thus : the first fruits of thy treshing floore , and of thy wine-presse thou shalt not delay to offer vnto mee . if it be a sinne , to delay the giuing : how much worse is it , not to giue at all ? and againe , he saith , honour thy lord thy god with thy iust labours , and offer vnto him of the fruits of thy righteousnesse , that thy barnes may bee filled with wheat , and thy presses abound with wine . thou doest not this , for god a mercy , that by and by shalt receiue it againe with manifold increase . perhaps thou wilt aske , who shall haue profit by that , which god receiueth , to giue presently backe againe ? and also thou wilt aske , who shall haue profit by that which is giuen to the poore ? if thou beleeuest , thy selfe shall haue profit by it , but if thou doubtest , then thou hast lost it . tithes ( deare brethren ) are a tribute due vnto the needy s●ules . giue therefore this tribute vnto the poore , offer this sacrifice vnto the priests . if thou hast no tithes of earthly fruits : yet whatsoeuer the husbandman hath , whatsoeuer ar● sustaineth thee , it is gods , and he requires tithe , out of whatsoeuer thou liuest by : whether it be warfare , or traffike , or any other trade , giue him the tithe . some things we must pay for the ground we liue on , and something for the vse of our life it selfe . yeeld it therefore vnto him ( o man ) in regard of that which thou possessest : yeeld it ( i say ) vnto him , because he hath giuen thee thy birth : for thus saith the lord : euery man shall giue the redemption of his soule , & there shal not bee amongst them any diseases or mishaps . behold , thou hast in the holy scriptures the cautions of the lord , vpon which hee hath promised thee , that if thou giue him thy tith , thou shalt not onely receiue aboundance of fruites , but health also of body . thy barnes ( saith he ) shall be filled with wheate , and thy presses shall abound with wine , and there shall bee in them , neither diseases nor mishaps . seeing then , by payment of tithes , thou maiest gaine to thy selfe , both earthly and heauenly rewards : why doest thou defraude thy selfe of both these blessings together ? heare therefore , ( o thou zeale-lesse mortality ) thou knowest , that all things that thou vsest are the lords , and canst thou finde in thy heart , to lend him ( that made all things ) nothing backe of his owne ? the lord god needeth not any thing , neither demandeth he a reward of thee , but honour ; he vrgeth thee not to render any thing that is thine , and not his . it pleaseth him to require the first fruits , and the tithes of thy goods , & canst thou denie them , ( o couetous wretch ? ) what wouldst thou doe , if he tooke all the nine parts to himselfe , and left thee the tenth onely ? and this in trueth hee doth , when by with-holding his blessing of raine , the drought maketh thy thirsty haruest to wither away : and when thy fruit , and thy vineyard , are strucken with haile , or blasted with frost , where now is the plenty that thou so couetously didst reckon vpon ? the nine parts are taken from thee , because thou wouldst not giue him the tenth . that remaines onely , that thou refusest to giue , though the lord required it . for this is a most iust course , that the lord holdeth , if thou wilt not giue him the tenth , he will turne thee to the tenth . for it is written , saith the lord , insomuch as the tithe of your ground , the first fruits of your land ; are with you : i haue seene it , but you thought to deceiue me : hauocke and spoile shall bee in your treasurie , and in your houses . thus thou shalt giue that to the vnmercifull souldier , which thou wouldest not giue to the priest. the lord almighty also saith : turne vnto me , that i may open vnto you the windowes of heauen , and that i may poure downe my blessing vpon you ; and i will not destory the fruit of your land , neither shall the vines of your field [ or the trees of your orchards ] wither away , [ or be blasted ] and all nations shall say , that you are a blessed people . god is alwaies ready to giue his blessings . but the peruersenesse of man alwaies hindreth him . for hee would haue god giue him all things , and he will offer vnto god nothing , of that whereof himselfe seemeth to bee the owner . * what if god should say ? the man that i made , is mine ; the ground that thou tillest , is mine ; the seed that thou sowest , is mine ; the cattell that thou weariest in thy worke are mine ; the showers , the raine , and the gentle winds are mine ; the heat of the sunne , is mine ; and since all the elements whereby thou liuest , are mine ; thou that lendest onely thy hand , deseruest onely the tithe , or tenth part . yet because almighty god doth mercifully feede vs , hee bestoweth vpon the labourer a most liberall reward for his paines , and reseruing onely the tenth part vnto himselfe , hath forgiuen vs all the rest . ingratefull and perfidious deceiuer , i speake to thee in the word of the lord. behold the yeere is now ended : giue vnto the lord ( that giueth the raine ) his reward . redeeme thy selfe , o man , whilest thou liuest . redeeme thou thy selfe whilst thou maiest . redeeme thy selfe ( i say ) whilest thou hast wherewith in thy hands . redeeme thy selfe , lest it greedy death preuent thee , thou then lose both life and reward together . thou hast no reason , to commit this matter ouer to thy wife , who happily will haue another husband . neither hast thou ( o woman ) any reason to leaue this to thy husband , for his minde is on another wife . it is in vaine , to tie thy parents , or thy kinsfolke , to haue care hereof : no man after thy death , surely shall redeeme thee , because in thy life , thou wouldest not redeeme thy selfe . now then , cast the burthen of couetousnesse from thy shoulders , despise that cruell lady , who pressing thee downe with her intollerable yoake , suffereth thee not to receiue the yoake of christ for as the yoake of couetousnesse , presseth men downe vnto hell , so the yoake of christ raiseth men vp vnto heauen . for tithes are required as a debt , and hee that will not giue them , inuadeth an other mans goods . and let him locke to it , for how many men soeuer die for hunger in the place where he liueth ( not paying his tithes ) of the murthering of so many men , shall he appeare guilty before the tribunall seate of the eternal iudge , because he kept that backe to his owne vse , that was committed to him by the lord for the poore . he therefore that either desireth to gaine a reward , or to * obtaine a remission of his sins , let him pay his tithe , and bee carefull to giue almes to the poore , out of the other nine parts : but so notwithstanding , that whatsoeuer remaineth ouer and aboue moderate diet , and conuenient apparrell , bee not bestowed in riot and carnall pleasure , but laied vp in the treasurie of heauen , by way of almes to the poore . for whatsoeuer god hath giuen vs more then wee haue neede of , he hath not giuen it vnto vs particularly , but hath committed it ouer vnto vs to bee distributed vnto others : which if wee dispose not accordingly , wee spoile and rob them thereof . thus farre s. augustine . erasmus in a generall censure of these sermons de tempore , noteth many of them not to bee saint augustines : so also doth master perkins , and diuers other learned men , who hauing examined them all all particularly , and with great aduisement , reiecting those that appeared to bee adulterat or suspected , admit this notwithstanding as vndoubted . and although bellarmine seemeth to make a little question of it , yet hee concludeth it to bee , without doubt , an excellent worke : and either * saint augustines owne , or some other ancient fathers . but hee saith , that many things are cited out of it as out of augustine in decret . 16. qo 1. and to cleare the matter further , i finde that some parts heereof are alleadged vnder the name of augustine , in concil . triburiens . ( which was in the yeere of our lord 895 ) cap. 13. and twenty yeere before that also , in concil . moguntin . 1. cap. 8. so that antiquitie it selfe , and diuers councels , accept it for augustines . i will not recite a great discourse to the effect of this sermon amongst the workes of augustine in the treatise de rectitudine christiane religionis ; because erasmus iudgeth that treatise not to bee augustines . yet seemeth it likewise to be some excellent mans , and of great antiquity . but if thou wouldst heare more what augustine saith vnto thee of this matter , take this for a farewell ; maiores nostri ideo copijs omnibus abundabant , quia deo decimus dabant , & caesuri censum reddebant : modo autem quia descessit deuotio dei , accessit indictio fisci . noluimus partiri cum deo decimas , modo autem totum tollitur . hoc tollit siscus , quod non accipit christus . an appendix by the author . i haue beene often sollicited within these two yeeres , both to reimprint this little treatise , and also to publish a greater worke much of the same argument . some especiall reasons haue made mee vnwilling to doe either . not that i doe , aut clypeum abijcere , aut causam deserere : but i finde my arme too feeble for so great an attempt ▪ and in matters of such weight and consequence , a better opportunity is to be expected , then is yet afforded . i desire therefore not to be hastned herein , though hee that published my booke in scotland ( out of his zeale to the cause ) taketh that for one of his motiues . when i did first let it goe forth : i did it only in couert manner : not thinking it worthy of the broad eye of the world , nor holding it fit to haue that which was done in a corner , preached vppon the house top : or that which passed priuatly betweene me and my friend , to flie ( in this sort , at once ) to both the poles of the monarchy . hereupon i hitherto by entreaty with held it from a reimpression : but i being in the countrey : and it being now to me as ●lius emancipatus , and out of my power : the printer hath taken aduantage of his liberty , and in my absence printed it againe with the former infirmities i wish , since it must needes be thus : that i had ouer run it with a new hand : aswell to explane it in some things , as to helpe and fortifie it in other . for the argument hath many aduersaries , not of the laity onely : but amongst the church-men themselues . all are not pleased with this forme of * maintenance : other are not satisfied how it is due . some also conceiue scriptures in this manner , some in that : and where one is best pleased , there another findeth most exception . thus he that commeth vpon the stage , is the obiect and subiect of euery mans opinion . yet must i herein confesse my selfe beholden vnto many : for i vnderstand this small essay hath giuen them good liking ▪ to satisfie all i labour not : but to the worthier sort i would performe what i could . being therefore enformed ( about a yeare almost since ) that some particular diuines of learning and iudgement , ( conceiuing well of my booke , ) supposed that i had departed from the ancient and moderne interpreters in applying the 12. verse of the 83. psalme . onely to the sanctified things of the iewes which ( they said ) was spoken of all their houses and cities in generall . i did then vnto them ( as i thought it fit ) reddere rationem & fidei & facti . and in like manner ( because the booke goeth forth againe vpon a new aduenture , and may encounter with the like obiections , ) i held it now as necessary to adde something vnto it in that point being so materiall yet must i signifie vnto you , that they which tooke that exception , accounted both my argument and whole discourse the stronger ( notwithstanding ) ex consequente : as namely , that if it were so heinous a sinne to inuade the temporall things of the iewes , much more must it needes bee to inuade the spirituall . so that no man is either freed or cased by this suggestion , but rather the more ensnared and ouerwhelmed . neuerthelesse ( i vnderstand ) that which followeth , hath cleared this point vnto them : and i hope so shall it also do● vnto others ( which separate not themselues from our church ) if cause require . i am not ignorant that many moderne and some ancient interpreters vnderstand the body of the 83 psalme , of the taking of the houses and cites of the iewes in generall , not onely of the temple and synagogues , nor onely of the cities of the leuites : for the very historicall texture of the psalme discouers as much . but that branch of it , where on 〈◊〉 i fastened my anchor , and where i chiefly insisted , namely the 12 verse , touching the taking of the houses of god in possession , ( which indeed is the center of the psalme : what interpretation soeuer it receiueth ) most of them interpret it primarily and positiuely for the temple 〈◊〉 . holy things , then per translationem for hierusalem , and by consequence , for all iudea , ( and the people of god ) in respect that they were there planted . for though wee following genebr●d , caluin and arias montanus , translate it litterally , take the houses of god in possession ; yet the septuagints & greekes interpret it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : and hierome in the latin vulgar accordingly ▪ sanctuarium dei : in his other translation called haebraeica veritas , ( which also agreeth with that elder , cited by lucius in the primer ages of the church ) pulchritudine●● dei : pellican , electissima : all of them by such denominations , as are most proper to the temple & holy things . and therefore the church in all former ages and for the most part yet also beyond the seas , euen in the reformed parts of germany , retaineth that interpretation of sanctuarium dei , as best agreeing with the intent of the hebrew , which hierome in the preface to his translation professeth confidently ( by many witnesses ) that he hath changed in nothing . i alleage all this , but to 〈◊〉 , that by what variety of words soeuer , the translators expresse the originall hebrew , yet they all concu●re with this as the fountaine and st●n●ard ; that prima intentione , it 〈…〉 the holy things , though in ●ecun●d it bee caried vnto temporall . our selues also in our owne english translation , vnderstand the houses of god , for places dedicated to the seruice of god. and therefore in the 9. verse of the 74. psalme , where our church-psalter saith , burnt vp all the houses of god in the land : the geneua and the kings addition report it , burnt vp al the synagogues of god in the land. so likewise in the 1. verse of the 84. psal. the dwellings of god are expresly spoken of his tabernacles , and holy habitations , not of his temporall . yet doe i not deny ; but ( as i say ) secunda intentione , the words sanctuarium , or houses of god , in the 83. psalme are truely carried to all iudea and the people of god , howbeit hierome noteth expresly no such matter vpon it : neither could augustine find it in the litterall or historicall sence of the text : and therefore he deduceth it to the people of god by way of tropology , vsing the metaphor of saint paul. 1. cor. 3. sanctuarium : ( saith he ) templum dei sanctum est : quod estis vos . and lyra accordingly , sanctuarium : id est ( saith he ) hierusalem , in qua erat templum dei : & per consequens : terram iudea , cuius metropolis erat hierusalem . arnobius likewise of the ancient , taketh it first for the temple & holy vessell : then extensiuely , for the people and land of israel . as for cyprian , origen , tertullian , ambrose , chrysostome , gregory , they meddle not with it , that i can finde , nor hierome otherwise then as i haue mentioned . but admit that at this day most doe expound it for the temporalties of the iews , aswell as for their leuiticall and sanctified things : what doth this contradict my application of this psalme against spoilers of churches ? or wherein is my errour ? i affirme the genus vpon one of the membra diuidentia , and they vpon both . i vpon one not exclusiue , and they vppon both copulatiue . doe not they then themselues affirme my assertion ? let schoolemen be iudges . yea doe they not iustifie and enforce it ? for if god loueth the gates of syon , more then all the dwellings of iacob , psal. 87. 2. that is , the outward and petty things of his church , more then a●l the stately temporalties of his lay people , yea , if he loueth iacob but for sion , that is , the people but for the church : then ex necessario to consequente , when the prophet denounceth such heauy things against them , that menaced gods , lay people , and their possessions , how much the rather , doth hee it against such as with greater fury and impiety afflict his more peculiar and chosen seruants , his cleargy , his leuites , his first borne ? against these i say , that forbeare not to violate the things more deare vnto him : his temple , his oracle , his holy mysteries , that is , things belonging to his honour and diuine seruice , things and meanes , ordained to the propagation of his blessed word ? for this is the consequence of destroying our churches : this killeth the bird in the shel : and to a person offending in this nature , wrote i my booke . by like reason , it may also be said ; that this psalme was framed against heathens and infidels , ( which in open hostility assailed the church & people of god with fire and sword ) not against such as be our owne brethren , & of the family of the church , though ( in some sort ) they doe iniury vnto it . i answere that the ammonites and moabites were also of the kindred of israel : yea , the edomites , and ismalites , of the linage of abraham , aswell as the israelites themselues : yet when they ioined with them that sought the destruction of the church ; the curses of the pr●prophet went as freely and as fiercely against them as the rest . so if our church be spoiled by her brethren , her children , or kindred , the sentence is all one against them , as against heathen and infidels , yea , and that also more iustly and deseruedly by the iudgement of the prophet , who accounteth the treachery of a familiar friend much more intollerable then the violence of an open enemy . psalm . 55. 12. but say i haue erred ( which indeed is too common with mee though it be humanum ) and doth the more easily befall mee , hauing saluted the schoole of diuinity , onely a longe and a limine : i am therefore readie with augustine to put it amongst my retractations , if there be cause why ? yet ( as he said of romulus ) sed tamen errorē quo tu●atur habet . for i am not the author of this expositiō , neither is it my own weapon but borrowed , and put into my hand by others of elder time . i confesse that as they which go to battell , whet their swordes , and bend their bowes : so i sharpened both the edge and the point of it to my purpose . for all spirits are not cast out by ordinarie power , nor all humors perswaded by ordinary reason . knowing therefore what was necessary in particular for the party to whom i wrot , i applied my selfe , and my pen to that particular necessity : yet , not with zidkiah to seduce him by vntruthes , but as a faithfull michaiah to leaue nothing vntold that belonged to his danger . see then what i haue to defend my selfe withall , both of ancient & later fathers & doct rs● of the church : the first application ( as i take it ) that euer was made of this psalme , was ( only to the purpose i alleadge it ) by ●ucius a deuout bishop of rome , in the bloody age of the primitiue church , about 225. yeeres after christ : of whom ( to let passe cyprian ) bale , a man of our owne , giueth this testimony ; that hee was a faithfull seruant in the lords house , — and enriched his church with healthfull doctrine , and afterward being purified in the lambes blood , hee pierced the heauenly paradice , being put to death at valentinians commandement , anno 255. this lucius ( as i noted in the margent of my booke , pag. 39. ) in an epistle of his to the bishops of gallia and spaine : hauing determined many things touching the church , & somewhat also against spoilers and defrauders thereof ( concluding them by the example of iudas to bee thieues and sacrilegious persons ) hee proceedeth with them in this manner : de talibus , id est ( saith hee ) qui facultates ecclesiae rapiunt , fraudant , & auferunt : dominus comminans omnibus per prophetam loquitur dicens : deus ne taceas tibi : ne sileas , &c. reciting the whole 83. psalme euery word , as you may see . tom. 1. concil : of binn●us edition . pa. 180. col . 2. i tooke this reuerend father and great doctor of the church , liuing in the purity of religion , in the times of persecution , and so neere the ages of the apostles , to be a faithfull direction to my penne . yet , lest hee should seeme like a sparrow alone on the house top , i will shew you the opinion of others in the after ages . petrus damianus a cardinall , whilest that title was rather a name of ministry then of dignity , and long before it became mounted and purpurate , a starre of his time , now almost 600. yeers old , vnderstandeth this psalm also of church possessions , & dignities , & out of it doth vehemētly confute the chaplains of duke gothi●red , which held it no s●mony to buy bishoprickes and priests places , so they paid nothing for the imposition of hands ( an opinion too common at this day ) and hee applieth against them the interpretation of the names of the heathen princes there mentioned , and concludeth them to be haereditario quodam iure sanctuarij possessores , as you may see in his speculo mor. l. 5. ep. 13. ad capellan . gothif . rupertus who flourished about 500. yeeres since ; expoundeth it contra omnes ecclesiae hostes , falsos christianos , haereticos , &c. great hugo cardinali● , the first postillator of the bible , ( who flourished anno 1240. a little also , before that order was distinguished with the horse and red hat , and a man to whom all the preachers of christendome are more beholden , then many of them are aware : for much of that good iuce that sweetneth the expositions they read , dropt from his penne , though now like riuers falling into other channels , it hath lost his name ) in his worthy comment vpon the psalter , applieth the wordes , haereditate possideamus sanctuarium dei , against those that ambitiously seeke church-liuings and dignities , dispiersing the curses of this psalme , as well among the great men of the cleargy as them of the laity , which by threatning or fauour obtaine ecclesiastical promotions : and particularly against such men of the church , as conferre prebends and dignities vpon their nephewes and kindred , building ( as he saith ) sion in ( their ) bloud , and ierusalem in in●quity . neither spareth hee the popes themselues , but chargeth them also that they possesse gods sanctuary , by way of inheritance , in that they keepe the succession of the papacy among such as bee onely of the romane nation . and much more to this purpose , which were here too long to recite : but ( concluding that the prophet hath leuelled at them all in this psalme ) he saith , de omnibus istis sequitur : deus meus pone eos vt retam , &c. ioannes vitalis , who liued aboue 300. yeeres since , ( and for his fame , and learning , was also called to bee a cardinal , ere that this dignity was yet at the highest pitch ) vehemently enceth this psalme against the great men that prey vpon the church , applying the interpretation of the names therein mentioned very bitterly vnto them . and saith further , that they possesse the sanctuary of god by inheritance , which enter into it vnworthily , or in succession to their vnckles , nephewes , and parents , and they also which giue benefices in that manner , wasting thereby as it were christs hereditary patrimony ; with much more to this effect , speculo moral : tit . principes saeculares . fol. 229. d. nicolaus de lyra , who flourished about the same time ; our owne country-man , ( though of iewish parents ) a starre also in that age , of the first magnitude , for his learning ; and exquisit aboue all in the hebrew , ( it being his mother tongue , and eleborate by him ) whose iudgemēt i the rather esteeme , for that luther loued him , and preferred him aboue all interpreters , as luther himselfe testifieth in the 2. and 9. chap. of genesis . he ( i say , as before i haue noted ) expoundeth it : first , and properly for the temple ( vnder which i vnderstand all things dedicated vnto god ) then for ierusalem , because ( saith he ) the temple was there : and lastly by consequence ( for that is his owne word ) for the land of iudea , whose chiefe city ierusalem was . so that he maketh the temple and things belonging to god , to be the maine part whereat the prophet aimeth , and the city and countrey to follow , but by inference and implication . come to the later writers , genebrard noteth vpon sanctuarium dei ; that the hebrew word is , habitacula , and for the postill , faith ; generaliter de diuinis omnibus templis , vrbibus locis & oppidis populi dei . so that if hee had been questioned further ; how he vnderstood habitacula , specialiter , it is then like hee would haue answered , de diuinis omnibus templis tantum : that is , onely of churches . but be it as it is , he setteth them in the first place , as the proper signification , and the rest in cons●quence , as analogicall , according to augustine & our countrey-man ly●anus . as for luther , he expoundeth not this psalme himselfe , that i can finde ; but you see what hee attributeth to lyras iudgement . pellican a great hebritian , translateth it possideamus nobis alectissima dei , and expoundeth it in like manner as before , templum ciuitatem vasa populum dei . pomeranus interpreteth it of them that did seeke to make themselues lords and heires of the temple . to conclude , because the newest thing● are most acceptable with many . the last man that hath written vpon the psalter , lorinus a iesuit , ( and therefore i will not presse his authority ) yet to doe him right , very well esteemed amongst great clarks of our owne church for much good learning ( though in matters of controuersie , full enough of romish leuin ) reciteth some-what more briefly the former interpretations of petrus damianus , hugo cardinalis and iohn vitalis , and approuing those their applications , putteth them still on into the world , as truly consonant to the tenor of the psalme , which notwithstanding i doubt not hath also many other expositions , as herbes haue vsually diuers vertues and operations . but thus the eldest and newest expositors are wholly for mee , many also ( & of the best of thē ) of the middle ages , none that i know against me . for although musculus , bucer , caluin , marlorat , mollerus , expound this psalme historically of the countrey and nation of the iewes , yet when then apply it to the church of christ ( as otherwise there were no vse of it ) they make that application by way of figure & analogy ; and then is there no cause to raise an antithesis , or contrariety betweene them and me . for to reconcile the matter , s. ierome in his entrance into the exposition of this psalme , telleth vs , that wee may expound it figuratiuely of the church ( which i vnderstand in matters of action , gouernement , doctrine ) or historically of the people of the iewes and nations about them . and though caluin himselfe pursueth for the most part the historicall interpretation , yet when he commeth to the 12. verse , he faith ; i terum accusat profanos homines sacrilegij , quod praedateria licentia inuolant in ipsam dei haereditatem . thus much , and too much touching this point . as it is saide in the end of the machabees : if i haue done well and as the story required , it is the thing that i desired : but if i haue spoken slenderly and barely , it is that i could . let no man therefore rely vpon me , but learn of them that are bound to teach ; for the priest slips should preserue knowledge , and they should seek the law at his mouth : for he is the messenger of the lord of hosts . mal. 2. ● other things there be , wherein i would willingly haue enlarged my self a little : but as popilius in liuy discribing a circle about antiochus enforced him to answere before hee stept out of it . so the printer ( hauing printed al to the last sheet before i knew it ) restraineth me , ad articulum temporis , within which accordingly i must needs end . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a12763-e530 a rectory what it is . a plowd . comment in quare impedit per grendō , &c. b oblatio est omne quod exhibetur in cultu dei , tho. aq. 22. q. 85. 3. 3. &c. and vrban in his epist. tome 1. concil . and lands are so termed , ezek. 45. 1. and tithes , numb : 18. 24. so also the canonists & ciuilians expound them , concil . aurel. ca. 7. burcha . lib. 3. ca. 129. & 143. et lex . iurid . in verb. oblatio . c leuit. 27. 28. d touching diuine worship and works of charity . tithes how due . gen. 14. 19. a yet there bee diuers naturall reasons that commend this number ( for this purpose ) aboue other . b gen. 14. 20. c gen. 28. 22. d leuitticus 27. 30. and 32. deut. 12. 6 , & 11. mallachy 3. 10. e declared by the fathers and counsels . tithes originally not leuiticall . a iacob voweth to giue tithes gen. 28. 22. and ioseph sheweth he performeth his vow . antiquit . lib. 1. cap. 27. b hom. 35. in gen. c the scripture onely mentioneth bread and wine to be giuen by melchisedeck to abraham : but iosephus sheweth , that hee gaue him also diuers other rich gifts . antiquit. lib. 1. cap. 18. d leuit. 37. 30 , & 3● . c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . num. 18. 21 , 24 , & 26. a ambros. in serm. quadrages . b august . in serm. de temp . 1●9 . & alias . c hieron . in mala. 3. d chrysost. in epist. ad heb. hom. 12. & hom. 35. in . gen. e roman . concil . 4. aurelian . 1. tarracon . sub horm . mediomatricis . toletanum agrippin . cap. 6. hispalens . mont●s . concus . 2. valentinum sub leone 4 rothomag . cap 3. cauall●n cap. ●8 . maguntin . cap. 10. f origen , tertullian , cyprian , gregory , &c. see this sermon in the end of this booke . glaber . hist. lib. 2 ▪ ca. 11. of oblations & offerings . a vrban . epist. circiter anno. christi 227. b constantine & valentinian made lawes that rich men which were able to support the charges of the common-wealth : should not be admitted into religious houses ▪ because their poss●ssions and goods were thereby a mortized . c 2 chron. 31. 11. d tertullian in apologetico . e iustinius in apol. 2. hist. ecles . f sermone 1 , de eleemosymis . g hee calleth the treasury corban , of that at the temple of hierusalem . h noui testamenti nouam docuit ( filz . christ●us ) oblationem : quam ecclesia ab apostolis accipiens in vniuerso mundo offert deo : ei qui alimenta nobis prestat . primitias suorum muncrum in nouo testamento . i vide zanchium lib. 1. de culm dei externo . of glebe land , and houses belonging to parsonages how lands came to the churches . a it appeareth by the epistles of pius and vrban who liued about the yeere of christ 230. that the church of rome had then begū to retain lands in this māner vpō this reason , & it may well be , for that origen & eusebius shew , that churches had then possessions . b edicta constantini & lucinij impp. eus. lib. 10. ca. 5. c origen speaketh of rents of the church : hom. 31 in mat. d eusebius of an house belonging to the church of antioche that paulus samosatenus in the time of aurelianus the emperour ( about 30 yeeres before constantine ) wrongfully inuaded : lib. 7. cap. 24. e & f read the note ( a ) next afote . g synod . roman . sub symacho . 103. episcoporū circiter an. christ. 503. tota contra inuasores ecclesiarū . concil . aurelianens . 4. ann. 543. c. 19. & 34. conc. meldeus . ca. 5. burch . lib. 11. cap. 16. concil . gangrens . cap. 8. bur. lib. 11. cap. 20. concil . mogunt . cap. 3. 6. 7. & plurima alia . h see the two edicts of constantine and licinius empp. euseb. lib. 10. cap. 5. and the lawes of constant : theodos : iust : carol : magn : and many other . i to passe ouer forraigne princes , our own in former times haue almost successiuely confirmed them . k si quis in agro suo , aut habet , aut postulat habore dioecefim primum & terras ei deputet sufficienter , & clericos : qui ibidem sua officia impleant , vt sacratis locis reuerentia condigna tribuatur . aur. conc. c. 23. in conc. tom. 2. vbi nota quod dioecesis accipitur pro libertate condendi oratoria vel ecclesias , itaque in argumēto huius capituli oratorium exponitur . l tom. concil . 1. * coloniam vestitam . m concil . tolet. 3. cap. 15. n chrysost. hom 18. in acta . o syn. lond. ca. 16. antiq . britan. ca. 34. * alias adulphus : p i●gulf . in hist. croil . q sim. dumelm . cita . antiquit. brit. cap. 27 r deciviam mansionem vbi mininum sit . s as appeareth in their seuerall lawes , and namely 15 times in edw. 3. raigne . t see the stat. of 25. edw. 1. in rastals abridgment tit . confirmat . 3. and sententia lata sup●r chartas . and pupilla ocult par . 5. c. 22. u nelis . 10. 32. x acts. 5. 4. churches and their liuings dedicate to god. a see the 6. syn. rom. of 103 bishops ( aboue 1000 yeers since ) wholly against violaters of churches & church-rights . and see many other to this purpose . burchar . lib. 11. a demonst. problem . tit . templum sect . 3. in epist. ad constant. imp. a histor. suae lib. 1. c. 30. & sozom . lib. 3. cap. 25. niceph . lib. 8. cap. 50. hist. triper . li 3. fol. 331 ▪ * hierusalem . * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . i. consecrare . * euseb. 〈◊〉 orat . de laudib . constant . ibideus . gen. 28. 22. chrys. hom . 18. in act. concil . mogunt . ca. 7. holy rights and temples how respected by heathens . gen. 47. 22. biblioth . hist. lib. 5. iohn 10. 3. how fearefull a thing it is to violate the church . 2. chron. 24. vers . 7. dauids zeal for the house of god. * this psalme is alledged to this purpose by lucius ( who was martyred about an. chr. 255. ) in his epistle to the bishops of gallia and spaine . tom. concil . 1. the zeale of our sauiour to the house of god. and of the parts of the temple . mat. 21. 12 mar. 11. 17. luke . 19. 45. num. 18. 5. ebr. 9. 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , &c. a christ came to fulfill the law , & not to break it . therefore ( doubtles ) he obserued the rules thereof , and the quality of his tribe . b see the forme of the temple in arias montaiu : antiquitat . iudaic. lib. aricl . and in the geneua bible , 1. king. cap. 6. and marke well both it , and the notes vpon it ; for i find them ( aboue others ) most agreeable to the scriptures , and rely not vpon the figure of the temple in adricomues , without good examination ; for i perceiue he hath misplaced somethings therein . c see the note ( a ) among the notes aforesaid . d 2. chron. 6. 13. stat. ne rectores prosternant arbores in cimiterio . more of that matter : and how farre the sanctification of the temple is abo . * 1. chr. 4. 9. & 6. 12. * acts 31. 1. saint paul maintaineth the reuerence of the church . 1 cor. 11. 12. coment . in 1. cor. 11. the zeale of some of the fathers to the church . serm. de temp . tom . 10. 21● ad marcellinam sororem : epist. 33. in fine eiusdem epist. * heretikes which contemned churches . sacriledge not to be suffered in the least things . coment . in 2. cor. 11. 22. tom . 9. eccles. 25. 27. an admonition to them that meddle with holy things . a surmise answered . another surmise answered . dissero non assero . a term. pas. an. 7. edw. 6. assise fol. 83. b. b doct. & stud. cap. 6. c see aug. ser. 219. de temp. hostiens . and most canonists . concil . montisc . 2. cap. 50. concil . mogunt cap. 38. alias 10 , &c. d dismes font choses spiritual , & due de iure diuino . le euesque de winch. case fol. 45. c nescio quo fato sit ; vt eodem t●mporis periodo ( viz. an . 68 ) post ereptas per nabuc & h. 8. res templorum : stirps vtris que regia extincta sit , imperium sublatum , & ad aliā gentem deuolutum . vlterius igitur speremus . cyrum nostrum iacobum regem ( qui sceptra dissidentia . compescuit ) restitutionis etiam munus aliquando aggressurum . a third surmise answered . a al church reuenues were at first paid to bishops , and by them distributed to the priests , poore , &c. after the bishops were to haue a fourth part of all tithes . per concil . aurelian . mogunt . tribur . hanet : &c. et per conc. tarracon . the third part . b plowd . in quare impper grend . l. coke report . part . 5. fol. 15. c 1. chr. 26. 30. & 32. b see plowden in quar. imp. per grendon . et lo. coke de iure regis eccles. part 5. c reges sacro oleo vncti , sunt spiritualis iurisdictionis capaces 33. ed. 3. tit . aide de roy 103. ex dom. coke repor . part . 5. d dalmatia est vestis , qua modo vtuntur omnes diaconi ex cons●etudine in s●lennitatibus . vt 70. distin . de ieiun●o . antiquitus tamen , siue concessione papae , nec episcopis , nec diaconis licebat vti hac veste . distinct. 23. cap. omnes filius . prateus . e 22 edw. 3. lib. assis. plac . 75. l. coke par . 5. fol. 15. a. f as inglewood , &c. vt patet an . 18. edw. 1. inter petitiones coram dūo rege ad parliamentum . the danger that proprietaries of parsonages stand in . a see the extent of these words in l. coke , part . 2. fol. 49. and note also that parsonages appropriate , are not mentioned in that statute of 27. h 8. and the word ( tithes ) there seemeth to be meant of tithes belonging to the bodies of the monasteries ▪ not of parsonage tithes . ideo quare how the king had them before the statute of 31. regni sui . b parson impersonee . c for the monastical persons and prioresses themselues that could not performe the diuine seruice , were notwithstanding the incumbents of their churches : and lay approptietaries claiming vnder their right , ought also to bee subject to the same burthens . d there is yet no expresse law made to take away the bishops iurisdictions ouer churches appropriate , ( that i can finde . ) ideo quaere how it extendeth . * see dier trin. 36. h. 8. fol. 58. pl. 8. * termes of the law in verbo appropriation . leuesque de winchesters case , fol. 44 b. a diocles. vide euseb. hist. ecclis . lib 7. cap. 3. niceph. l. 7. cap. 3. b iuli. vide theod. hist. lib. 3. cap. 6. & niceph. lib. 10 cap. 5 c it is said in my l. dier in the case of a common person , that the seruice or a cure is a spirituall administration , and cannot be leased , and that the seruice is not issuing ou● of the personage , but annext vnto the person . 36. h. 8. fol. 58. b. pla . 8. * proprietaries which haue vicars endowed , thinke themselues thereby discharged : but though the vicar be the parsons deputy to doe the diuine seruice , yet a superiour care thereof resteth still vpon the parson himsel●e , and the surplusage of the profits belongeth to the poore , as appeareth by the whole body of fathers , doctors , counsels , &c. that it is not beneuolence but duety to restore church . liuings . ad mace donium epist. 54. tom . 2. iob. 12. 6. pro. 28. 24. * synod . ● . rom. 218. epis● o● . an 50● . co●c . val. an. 855. ca. 9. con. rom. 100. episc. anno 1063 conc. rom. 5. anno 10●8 . conc. pa●en● . an. 1. 88. conc. ox●n . gene . ang. anno 1222. a a strange change : the israelites gaue their owne goods so abundantly to the seruice of god , that moses was forced to restraine them by proclamation : exod , 6. ● . but now nothing can moue vs to giue god that which is his already . b qui sub . nomine sidelium , agunt operai● fidelium . hieron . ibid. c we think the church doth not command it till we make a parliament law for it , but the law is made already by christ himselfe . a dan. 6. 15. the conclusion . b 1. sa. 5. 11 ▪ c ex. 12. 31 cypr. ser. 5. de laps . in fine . lib. de her. ●it . per isid. mar. 12. 17 notes for div a12763-e9380 10. vlt. vers . 3. act. 24. 26. ● . tim. 4. 2● * psal. 80. 13. psal. 96. august 16. 1613. notes for div a12763-e9620 decret 16. quae. 1. cap. decima . where you may see a great part of this sermon cited for augustines . * mala. 3. 10. exod. 2● . ●9 . 16 quae. 1. ca. decima . prou. 3. 9. exo. 30. 12 pro. 3. 10. 16. quae. 1● ca. decima . 16. quae. 1. ca. decimae . mal. 3. 10. * this place is cited as out of augustine cons. triburies . ca. 13. an. 895 & before that in concil . mogunt . pri . c. 8 an. 874. 16. quae 1. ca. decimae . * pr●mereri . * forte non est augustini iste sermo tamen insignis est sine dubio & antiqui alicuius atris , nam inde tanquam ex augustino multa sunt adscripta in decret . 16. q 1. bellarm lib. de clericis cap. 25. homil 48. ex lib. 50. ham ▪ com . 10. notes for div a12763-e10640 in his epist . dodicat●ry . * tithes 1 r. 2● 17. epist. l. 3. epist. 1● . see 〈◊〉 page 60. a short historical essay touching general councils, creeds, and impositions in matters of religion ... written by that ingenious and worthy gentleman, andrew marvell ... marvell, andrew, 1621-1678. 1680 approx. 126 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 20 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2003-05 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a52148 wing m888 estc r52 12367217 ocm 12367217 60437 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a52148) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 60437) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 216:20) a short historical essay touching general councils, creeds, and impositions in matters of religion ... written by that ingenious and worthy gentleman, andrew marvell ... marvell, andrew, 1621-1678. 38 p. [s.n.], london : 1680. reproduction of original in british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng church polity -early works to 1800. 2002-11 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-01 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2003-02 olivia bottum sampled and proofread 2003-02 olivia bottum text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-04 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a short historical essay touching general covncils , creeds , and impositions in matters of religion . very seasonable for allaying the heats of the church . written by that ingenious and worthy gentleman . mr. andrew marvell , who died a member of parliament . london : printed in the year mdclxxx . a short historical essay touching general councils , creeds , and impositions in religion . the christian religion , as first instituted by our blessed saviour , was the greatest security to magistrates by the obedience which it taught , and was fitted to enjoy no less security under them by a practice conformable to that doctrine . for our saviour himself , not pretending to an earthly kingdom , took such care therefore to instruct his followers in the due subjection to governours ; that , while they observed his precepts , they could neither fall under any jealousie of state as an ambitious and dangerous party , nor as malefactors upon any other account deserve to suffer under the publick severity : so that in this only it could seem pernicious to government that christianity , if rightly exercised upon its own principles , would render all magistracy useless . but although he , who was lord of all , and to whom all power was given both in heaven and in earth , was nevertheless contented to come in the form of a servant , and to let the emperors and princes of the world alone with the use of their dominions ; he thought it good reason to retain his religion under his own cognizance and exempt its authority from their jurisdiction . in this alone he was imperious , and did not only practise it himself aga●nst the laws and customs then received , and in the face of the magistrate ; but continually seasoned and hardened his disciples in the same confidence and obstinacy . he tells them , they shall be brought before kings and governours for his name , but ●ear them not , he will be with them , bear them out and justifie it against all opposition . not that he allowed them hereby to violate their duty to the publick by any resistance in defiance of the magistracy ; but he instructed and animated them in their duty to god , in despight of suffering . in this manner christianity did at first set out and accordingly found reception . for although ou● blessed saviour , having fulfilled all rigteousness , and the time of his ministry being compleated , did by his death set the seal to his doctrine , and shew the way toward life and immortality to such believing imitate his example : yet did not the heathen magistrate take the government to be concerned in point of religion , or upon that account consent to his execution . pontius pilate , then governour of iud●a , though he were a man unjust and cruel by nature , and served tiberius , the most tender , je●lous and sever● in point of s●ate 〈◊〉 prerogative , of all the roman emperors ; though h● under●tood 〈◊〉 ● multitudes followed him , and ●●at he was grown the head of a new s●ct that was never before heard of in the nation , yet did not he intermeddle . but they were the men of religion , the chief priests , scribes and elders , and the high priest caiaphas . and yet , although they accused him f●●sly , that he taught that tribute was not to be given to caesar ▪ that he was a fifth monarch and made himself a king , and ( as it is usual for some of the clergy to terrifie the inferiour magistrates out of their duty to justice out of pretence of loyalty to the prince ) threatned pilate that if he let that man go he was not caesars friend ; he understanding that they did it out of envy , and that the justice and innocence of our saviour was what they could not bear with , would have adventured all their in●orming at court , and first have freed him , and then have exchanged him for barrabas ; saying , that he found no fault in him : but he was overborn at last by humane weakness , and poorly imagined that by washing his own hands he had expiated himself and wiped off the guilt upon those alone who were the occasion . but , as for tiberius himself , the growth of christianity did never increase his cares of empire at rome , nor trouble his sleep at capreae : but he both approved of the doctrine , and threatned the informers with death ; nor would have staid there , but attempted , according to the way of their superstition , upon the intelligence from pilate , to have received christ into the number of their deities . the persecution of the apostles after his death , and the martyrdom of stephen happened not by the interposing of civil magistrate in the matter of religion , or any disturbance occasioned by their doctrines : but arose from the high-priest and his emissaries , by suborned witnesses , stirring up the rabble in a brutish and riotous manner to execute their cruelty . how would the modern clergy have taken and represented it , had they lived in the time of s. iohn baptist , and seen ierusalem , iudaea and all the region round about jordan go out to be baptized by him ! yet that herod , for any thing we read in scripture , though he wanted not his instillers , apprehended no commotion : and had not caligula banished him and his herodias together , might in all appearance have lived without any change of government . 't was she that caused iohn's imprisonment for the conveniency of her incest , herod indeed feared him , but rather reverenced him , as a just man , and an holy , observed him and when he heard him he did many things and heard him gladly . nor could all her subtilty have taken off his head , but that herod thought himself under the obligation of a dance and an oath , and knew not in that case they ought both to be dispenced with . but he was exceeding sorry at his death ▪ which few princes are if men lived to their jealousie or dang●r . the killing of iames and imprisonment of peter by that herod was because he saw he pleased the people ; when the ●riests had once set them on madding : a complaisa●ce to which the most innocent may be exposed , but which partakes more of guile than civility or wisdom . but to find out what the disinteressed and prudent men of those days took to be the wisest and only justifiable way for the magistrate to proceed in upon matters of religion , i cannot see any thing more pregnant than the concurrent judgment of three persons , of so different characters , and that lived so far asunder , that there can be no danger of their having cor●upted one anothers understanding in favour to christianity . gamaliel , the deputy of achaia , and the town-clerk of ephesus ; the first a jewish doctor , by sect a pharisee , one of the council , and of great authority with the people , who ( when the chief-priest had cast the apostles in prison , and charged them for preaching against the command he had before laid upon them ) yet gave this advice , confirming it with several fresh precedents , acts 5. that they should take heed to themselves what they intended to do with those mens , and let them alone , for if this counsel , saith he , or this work be of men , it will come to ●ought , but if it be of god you cannot overthrow it , lest ye be found fighting with god. so that his opinion grounded upon his best experience , was that the otherwise unblameable sect of christianity might safely and ought to be left to stand or fall by gods providence under a free toleration of the magistrate . the second was gallio , acts 18. a roman , and deputy of achaia . the iews at corinth hurried paul before his tribunal , laying the usual charge against him , that he persuaded men to worship god contrary to the law , which gallio looked upon as so slight and without his cognizance , that , although most judges are willing to encrease the jurisdiction of their courts , he drave them away , saving paul the labour of a defence , and told them , if it were a matter of wrong or wicked lewdness , reason would that he should bear with them , but if it be a question of words and names , and of your law , look ye to it , i will be iudge of no such matters : and when he had so said , paul was released , but the greeks that were present took barnabas , and before the judgment seat beat sosth●nes the chief ruler of the synagogue , and ring-leader of the accus●rs . his judgment therefore was that , to p●nish christians meerly for their doctrine and practice , unless they were mal●●actors otherwise , was a thing out of the magistrates province and altogether unreasonable . the third case was no less remarkable . for one demetrius , that was a silversmith by trade and made shrines for diana , stirred up all the free-men of his company against paul ▪ and indeed he stated the ma●ter very fairly and honestly , 〈◊〉 th● true reason of most of these persecutions : ye know that by this craf● we have our wealth but that by paul 's preaching that th●y 〈◊〉 no g●ds which ●re made with hands , not only our c●aft is in danger to be set at nought but a●s the temple of the great 〈◊〉 and her magnificence , whom all asa● and the world 〈…〉 should be despised and destroyed . and it is considerable that 〈…〉 yet ●omented , as it usually the ephesia●s on against the apostle and his folowers . 〈◊〉 when they had brought alexander one of paul's companions into the of ephesus more temperate and wi●e than some would have been in that office ) would not make any inquisition upon the matter , nor put alexander upon his trial and defence , but ( although he himself could not have born that office without being a great dianist , as he declared too in his discourse ) he tells the people , they had brought those men which were neither robbers of churches nor blasphemers of their goddess , ( for that judge would not condemn men by any inferences or expositions of old statutes , which long after was iulian's practice and since imitated ) and therefore if demetrius and his crafts●men had any matter against them the law was open , and it should be determined in a lawful assembly , but that the whole city was in danger to be called in question for that uproar , there being no cause whereby they might give account of that concourse . and by this he plainly enough signified , that if paul and his companions had stoln the church-plate they might well be indicted , but that demetrius had no more reason in law against them , than a chandler might have had , if by paul's preaching wax tapers as well as silver candlesticks had grown out of fashion . that it is matter of right and wrong betwixt man and man that the justice of government looks to : but that , while christianity was according to its own principle carried on quietly , it might so fall that the disturbers of it were guilty of a riot , and their great city of ephesus deserve to be fined for it . and taking this to have been so , he dismist the assembly , acts 19. after these testimonies which i have collected out of the history of the acts , as of greatest authority , i shall only add one or two more out of the same book , wherein paul likewise was concerned before heathen magistrates of greater eminence , acts 23. ananias the high-priest ( these always were the men ) having countenanced and instigated the iews to a conspiracy , in which paul's life was endangered and aimed at , lysias the chief captain of ierusalem interposes and sends him away to foelix then governour of iudaea ; signifying by letter , that he had been accused only of questions of their law , but he found nothing to be laid to his charge worthy of death or of bonds . whereof foelix also , though the high-priest was so zealous in the prosecution that he took the journey on purpose , and had instructed an exquisite orator tertullus to harangue paul out of his life , as a pestilent fellow , a mover of sedition and ring-leader of the sect of the nazarenes , not omitting even to charge lysias for reseuing him by great violence from being murdered by them , was so well satisfied of the contrary upon full hearing , that he gave him his liberty and a centurion for his guard , with command that none of his acquaintance should be debarred from coming and ministring to him . but being indeed to leave his government afterwards ; left him in prison , partly to shew the iews and their high priest another piece of complaisant policy , which , 't is possible they paid well for , seeing the other reason was , because though he had sent for paul the oftner and communed with him , in hopes that he would have given him money to be discharged , there came nothing of it . which was so base a thing in so great a minister , that the meanest justice of the peace in england would scarce have the face to do so upon the like occasion . but his successor festus , having called agrippa and berenice to hear the cause , they all three were of opinion that it was all on the iews side calumny and impertinence , but that paul had done nothing worthy of death or of bonds , and might have been set free , but that having appealed to caesar he must be transmitted to him in safe custody . such was the sence of those upon whom the emperors then relied for the government and security of their provinces : and so gross were th●ir heathen understandings , that they could not yet comprehend how quietn●ss was sedition , or the innocence of the christian worship could be subject to forfeiture or penalty . nay , when paul appeared even before nero himself , and bad none to stand by him but all forsook him : he was by that emperor acquitted , and permitted a long time to follow the work of his ministry . 't is true that afterwards this nero had the honour to be the first of the roman emperors that persecuted christianity ; whence it is that tertullian in his apologetick saith ; we glory in having such an one the first beginner and author of our punishment , for there is none that hath read of him , but must understand some great good to have been in that doctrine , otherwise nero would not have condemned it . and thence forward christianity for about three hundred years lay subject to persecution . for the gentile priests could not but observe a great decay in their parishes , a neglect of their sacrifices and diminution of their profits by the daily and visible increase of that religion . and god in his wise providence had so ordered that , as the iews already so , the heathens now having filled up their measure with iniquity , sprinkling the blood of his saints among their sacrifices , and the christians having in a severe appreutiship of so many ages learned the trade of suffering , they should at last be their own masters and admitted to their freedom . neither yet , even in those times when they lay exposed to persecution , were they without some intervals and catching seasons of tranquillity , wherein the churches had leisure to reap considerable advantage , and the clergy too might have been inured , as they had been exemplary under affliction so , to bear themselves like christians when they should arrive at a full prosperity . for as oft as there came a just heathen emperor and a lover of mankind , that either himself observed , or understood by the governours of his provinces , the innocence of their religion and practices , their readiness to pay tribute , their prayers for his government and person , their faithful service in his wars , but their christian valour and contumacy to death , under the most exquisite torments , for their holy profession ; he forthwith relented , he rebated the sword of the executioner , and could not find in his heart or in his power to exercise it against the exercise of that religion . it being demonstrable that a religion instituted upon justice betwixt man and man. love to one another , yea even their enemies , obedience to the magistrate in all humane and moral matters , and in divine worship upon a constant exercise thereof and as constant suffering in that cause , without any pretence or latitude for resistance , cannot so long as it is true to it self in these things , fall within the magistrates jurisdiction . but as it first was planted without the magistrates hand , and the more they plucked at it , so much the more still it flourished , so it will be to the end of the world , and whensoever governours have a mind to try for it , it will by the same means and method sooner or later ●oil them , but if they have a mind to pull up that mandrake , it were advisable for them not to do it themselves , but to chuse out a dog for the imployment . i confess whensoever a christian transgresses these bounds once , he is impoundable , or like a wafe and stray whom christ knows not , he falls to the lord of the mannor . but otherwise he cannot suffer , he is invulnerable by the sword of justice : only a man may swear and damn himself to kill the first honest man he meets , which hath been and is the case of all true christians worshipping god under the power and violence of their persecutors . but the truth is that , even in those times which some men now , as oft as it is for their advantage , do consecrate under the name of primitive , the christians were become guilty of their own punishment , and had it not been , as is most usual , that the more sincere professors suffered promiscuously for the sins and crimes of those that were carnal and hypocrites , their persecutors may be looked upon as having been the due administrators of god's justice . for ( not to go deeper ) if we consider but that which is reckoned the tenth persecution under dioclesian , so incorrigible were they after nine preceding , what other could be expected when , as eusebius l. 3. c. 1. sadly laments , having related how before that the christians lived in great trust and reputation in court , the bishops of each church were beloved , esteemed and reverenced by all mankind and by the presidents of the provinces , the meetings in all the cities were so many and numerous , that it was necessary and allowed them to erect in every one spacious and goodly churches , all things went on prosperously with them , and to such an height that no envious man could disturb them , no devil could hurt them , as long as walking yet worthy of those mercies they were under the almighty's care and protection : after that our affairs by that too much liberty , degenerated into luxury and laziness , and some prosecuted others with hatred and contumely , and almost all of us wounded our selves with the weapons of the tongue in ill language when bishops set upon bishops , and the people that belonged to one of them stirred sedition against the people of another ; then horrible ▪ hypocrisie and dissimulation sprung up to the utmost extremity of malice , and the iudgment of god , while yet there was liberty to meet in congregations , did sensibly and by steps begin to visit us , the persecution at first discharging it self upon our brethren that were in the army . but we having no feeling of the hand of god , not indeavouring to make our peace with him , and living as if we believed that god did neither take notice of our transgressions nor would visit us for them , we heaped us iniquity upon iniquity . and those which seemed to be our pastors , kicking underfoot the rules of piety , were inflamed among themselves with mutual contention , and while they minded nothing else but to exaggerate their quarrels , threats , emulation , hatred and enmities , and earnestly each of them pu●sued his particular ambition in a tyrannical manner , then indeed the lord , then i say , according to the voice of the prophet jeremy , be covered the daughter of sion with a cloud in his anger , and cast down from heaven unto earth the beauty of israel , and remembred not his footstool in the day of his anger . and so the pious historian pathetically goes on , and deplores the calamities that insued , to the loss of all that stock of reputation , advantage , liberty and safety , which christian people had by true piety , and adhering strictly to the rules of their profession formerly acquired and injoyed , but had now forfeited and smartly & deservedly suffered under dioclesian's persecution . and it was a severe one , the longest too that ever happened , ten years from his beginning of it , and continued by others : by which time one might have thought the church would have been sufficiently winnowed , and nothing left but the pure wheat , whereas it proved quite contrary , and the holiest and most constant of the christians being blown away by martyrdom , it seem'd by the succeeding times , as if nothing but the cha●● and the tares had remained . but there was yet such a seed left , and not withstanding the defection of many , so internal a vertue in the religion it self , that dioclesian could no longer stand against it , and tired out in two years time , was glad to betake himself from rooting out christianity , to gardening , and to sow ▪ pot-herbs at salona . and he with his partner maximianus , resigned the empire to galerius and constantius , the excellent father of a more glorious and christian son , constantine the great , who in due season succeeded him , and by a chain of god's extraordinary providence , seemed to have been let down from heaven to be the emperor of the whole world , and as i may say , the universal apostle of christianity . it is unexpressible the vertue of that prince , his care , his indulgence , his liberality , his own example , every thing that could possibly tend to the promotion and incouragement of true religion and piety . and in order to that he thought he could not do better , neither indeed could he , then to shew a peculiar respect to the clergy and bishops , providing largely for their subsistence , had they too on their part behaved themselves worthy of their high calling , and known to make right use of the advantages of his bounty to the same ends that they were by him intended . for if the apostle , 1 tim 5. 17. requires that an elder , provided he rule well , be accounted worthy of double honour , especially those who labour in the word and doctrine , it excludes not a decuple or any further proportion , and indeed there cannot too high a value be set upon such a person : and god forbid too that any measure of wealth should render a clergy man uncanonical . but alas , bishops were already grown another name and thing , then at the apostles institution ; and had so altered their property , that paul would have had much difficulty by all the marks in the 1 tim. 3. to have known them . they were ill enough under persecution many of them , but that long and sharp winter under dioclesian , being seconded by so warm a summer under constantine , produced a pestilence , which as an ●●●ection that s●izes sometimes only one sort of cattel , diffused it self most remarkably thorow the whole body of the clergy . from his reign the most sober historians date that new disease which was so generally propagated then , and ever since transmitted to some of their successors , that it hath given reason to inquire whether it only happened to those men as it might to others , or were not inherent to the very function . it show'd it self first in ambition , then in contention , next in imposition , and after these symptoms broke out at last like a plague-sore in open persecution . they the bishops who began to vouch themselves the successors of christ , or at least of his apostles , yet pretended to be heirs and executors of the iewish high priests , and the heathen tyrants , and were ready to prove the will. the ignorant iews and infidels understood not how to persecute , had no commission to meddle with religion , but the bishops had studied the scriptures , knew better things , and the same , which was cruelty and tyranny in the heath●ns , if done by a christian and ecclesiastical hand , was allowed to be church-government , and the care of a diocess . but that i may not seem to speak without book , or out-run the history , i shall return to proceed by those degrees i newly mention'd , whereby the christian religion was usurped upon , and those things became their crime which were their duties . the first was the ambition of the bishops , which had even before this , taken its rise , when in the intervals of the former pers●cutions the piety of the christians had laid out ample provisions for the church ; but when constantine not only restored those which had been all confiscate under dioclesian , but was every day adding some new possession , priviledge , or honour , a bishoprick became very desirable , and was not only a good work , but a good thing , especially when there was no danger of paying as it was usual , formerly their first-fruits to the emperor by martyrdom . the arts by which ambition climes , are calumny , cruelty , bribery , adulation , all applyed in their proper places and seasons ; and when the man hath attained his end , he ordinarily shows himself then in his colours , in pride , opiniastry , contention , and all other requisite or incident ill q●alities . and if the clergy of those times had some more dextrous and innocent way than this of managing their ambition , it is to be lamented inter artes deperdi●as , or lies enviously hid by some musty book-worm in his private library . but so much i find , that both before , and then , and after , they cast such crimes at one another , that a man would scarce think he were reading an history of bishops , but a legend of devils : and each took such care to blacken his adversary , that he regarded not how he smutted himself thereby , and his own order , to the laughter or horror of the by-standers . and one thing i remark particularly , that as son of a whore is the modern word of reproach among the laity , of the same use then among the clergy was heretick . there were indeed hereticks as well as there are bastards , and perhaps it was not their fault , ( neither of 'em could help it ) but the mothers or the fathers ; but they made so many hereticks in those days , that 't is hard to think they really believ'd them so , but adventur'd the name only to pick a quarrel . and one thing that makes it very suspicious , is , that in ecclesiastical history , the ring-leader of any heresie is for the most part accused of having a mind to be a bishop , though it was not the way to come to it . as there was the damnable heresie of the novatians , against which constantine , notwithstanding his declaration of general indulgence at his coming in , was shortly after so incensed , that he published a most severe proclamation against them ; cognoscite jam per legem hanc qua à me sancita est , o novatiani , &c. prohibiting all their meetings not only in publick , but in their own private houses ; and that all such places where they assembled for their worship , should be rased to the ground without delay or controversie , &c. eus. l. 3 c. 62. de vita constantini . now the sto●y the bishops tell of novatus the author of that sect , euseb. l. 6. c. 42. is in the words of cornelius the bishop of rome , the very first line . but that you may know that this brave novatus did even before that affect to be a bishop ( a great crime in him ) that he might conceal that petulant ambition , he for a better cover to his arrogance , ●ad got some confessors into his society , &c. and goes on calling him all to naught , but then ( saith he ) he came with two reprobates of his own heresie into a little , the very least , shire of italy , and by their means seduced three most simple high-shoon bishops , wheedling them that they must with all speed go to rome , and there meeting with other bishops , all matters should be reconciled . and when he had got thither th●se there silly fellows , as i said , that were not aware of his cunning , he had prepared a company of rogues , like himself , that treated them in a private room very freely ; and having thwack'd their bellies , and heads full with meat and drink , compell'd the poor drunken bishops , by an imaginary and vain imposition of hands , to make novatus also a bishops . might not one of the same order now better have conceal'd these things , had they been true ; but such was the discretion . then he tells that one of the three returned soon after , repenting it seems next morning , and so he receiv'd him again into the church , unto the laick communion . but for the other two , he had sent successors into their places . and yet after all this ado , and the whetting of constantine , contrary to his own nature , and his own declarations against the novatians , i cannot find their heresie to have been others , than that they were the puritans of those times , and a sort of non-conformists that could have subscribed to the six and thirty articles , but differed only in those of discipline : and upon some enormities therein separated , and ( which will always be sufficient to qualifie an heretick they instituted bishops of their own in most places . and yet afterwards in the times of the best homoousian emperors , a sober and strictly religious people did so constantly adhere to them , that the bishops of the church too found meet to give them fair quarter ; for as much as they differ'd not in fundamentals , and therefore were of use to them against hereticks that were more dangerous and diametrically opposite to the religion . nay in so much , that even the bishop of constantinople , yea of rome , notwithstanding that most tender point and interest of episcopacy , suffered the novaian bishops to walk cheek by joul with them in their own diocess ; until that , as socr. l. 7. c. 11. the roman episcopacy having , as it were , passed the bounds of priesthood , slip'd into a secular principality , and thenceforward the roman ishops would not suffer their meetings with security ; but , though they commended them for their consent in the same faith with them , yet took away all their estates . but at constantinople they continued to fare better , the bishops of that church embracing the novatians , and giving them free liberty to keep their conventicles in their churches . what , and to have their bishops too , altar against altar ? a condescension which as our non-conformists seem not to desire or think of , so the wisdom of these times would , i suppose , judge to be very unreasonable , but rather that it were fit to take the other course , and that whatsoever advantage the religion might probably receive from their doctrine and party , 't is better to suppress them , and make havock both of their estates and persons . but however , the hereticks in constantine's time had the less reason to complain of ill measure , seeing it was that the bishops m●ted by among themselves . i pass over that controversie betwixt cecilianus , the bishop of carthage , and his adherents , with another set of bishops there in africk ; upon which , constantine ordered ten of each party to appear before miltiades , the bishop of rome , and others to have it decided . yet after they had given sentence , constantine found it necessary to have a council for a review of the business , as in his letter to chrestus the bishop of syracuse , euseb. l. 10. c. 6. whereas ●everal have formerly separated from the catholick heresie , ( for that word was not yet so ill natured , but that it might sometimes be used in its proper and good sense : ) and then relates his commission to the bishop of rome , and others , but forasmuch as some having been careless of their own salvation , and forgetting the reverence due to that most holy heresie ( again ) will not yet lay down their enmity , nor admit the sentence that hath been given , obstinately affirming , that they were but a few that pronounced the sentence , and that they did it very precipitately , before they had duly enquired of the matter : and from thence it hath happened , that both they who ought to have kept a brotherly and unanimous agreement together , do abominably and flagitiously deiss●t from one another ; and such whose minds are alienated from the most h●ly religion , do make a mockery both of it and them . therefore i , &c. have commanded very many bishops out of innumerable places to meet at arles , that what ought to have been quieted upon the former sentence pronounced may now at least be determined , &c. and you to be one of them ; and therefore i have ordered the prefect of sicily to furnish you with one of the publick stage-coaches , and so many servants , &c. such was the use then of stage-coaches , post-hors●s , and councils , to the great disappointment and grievance of the many ; both men and horses , and leather being hackney-jaded , and worn out upon the errand of some contentious and obstinate bishop . so went the affairs hitherto , and thus well disposed and prepared were the bishops to receive the holy ghost a second time , at the great and first general council of nice , which is so much celebrated . the occasions of calling it were two . the first a most important question , in which the wit and piety of their predecessors , and now theirs successively had been much exercised and taken up : that was upon what day they ought to keep easter ; which though it were no point of faith that it should be kept at all , yet the very calendary of it , was controverted with the same zeal , and made as heavy ado in the church , as if both parties had been hereticks . and it is reckoned by the church historians , as one of the chief felicities of constanstines empire , to have quieted in that council this main controversie . the second cause of the assembling them here , was indeed grown , as the bishops had order'd it , a matter of the greatest weight and consequence to the christian religion ; one arrius having , as is related , to the disturbance of the church , started a most pernicious opinion in the point of the trinity . therefore from all parts of the empire , they met together at the city of nice , two hundred and fifty bishops , and better , saith eusebius , a goodly company ; three hundred and eighteen say others ; and the animadverter too , with that pithy remark , pa. 23. equal almost to the number of servants bred up in the house of abraham . the emperour had accommodated them every where with the publick posts , or laid horses all along for the convenience of their journey thithers ▪ and all the time they were there , supplied them abundantly with all sorts of provision at his own charges . and when they were all first assembled in council , in the great hall of the imperial palace , he came in , having put on his best clothes , to make his guests welcome ; and saluted them with that profound humility , as if they all had been emperors , nor would sit down in his throne ; no , it was a very little and low stool , till they had all beckoned and made signs to him to sit down . no wonder if the first council of nice run in their heads ever after , and the ambitious clergy , like those who have bee● long a thirst , took so much of constantines kindness , that they are scarce come to themselves again , after so many ages . the first thing was that he acquainted them with the causes of his summoning them thither , and in a grave and most christian discourse , exhorted them to keep the peace or to a good agreement , as there was reason . for ( saith ruffin , l. 1. c. 2. the bishops being met here from almost all parts , and as they use to do , bringing their quarrels about several matters along with them , every one of them was at the emperour , offering him petitions , laying out one anothers , faults , ( for all the good advice he had given them ) and were more intent upon these things than upon the business they were sent for . but he , considering that by these scoldings and bickerings , the main affair was frustrated , appointed a set day by which all the bishops should bring him in whatsoever complaint they had against one another . and they being all brought he made them that high asiatick complement : god hath made you priests , and hath given you power to judge me , and ther●fore it is in you to judge me righteously ; but you cannot be judged by any men . it is god only can judge you , and therefore reserve all your quarrel to his tribunal . for you are as gods to me , and it is not convenient that a man should judge of gods , but he only of whom it is written , god standing in the congregation of the gods , and discerneth in the midst of them . and therefore setting these things aside , apply your minds without any contention to the ●overnments of god's religion . and so without opening or reading one petition , commanded them all together to be burnt there in his presence . an action of great charity and excellent wisdom , had but some of the words been spa●ed . for doubtless , though they that would have complained of their burthen , grumbled a little ; yet those that , were accusable were all very well satisfied ▪ and those expr●ssions , you can judge me righteously , and you cannot be judged by ●●y man ; and god only can judge you . you are gods to me , &c. were so extrea●●y sweet to most of the bishops palates , that they believ'd it , and could never think of them afterwards , but their teeth watered ; and they ruminated so long on them , that constantine's successors came too late to repent it . but now the bishops having mist of their great end of quarelling one with another , betake themselves , though somwhat aukwardly to business . and it is necessary to mine , that as shortly as possible for the understanding of it , i give a cursory account of alexander and arrius , with some few others that were the most interessed in that general and first great revolution of ecclesiastical affairs , since the days of the apostles . this alexander was the bishop of alexandria , and appears to have been a pious old man , but not equally prudent , nor in divine things of the most capable , nor in conducting the affairs of the church , very dextrous ; but he was the bishop . this charactor that i have given of him , i am the more confirm'd in from some passages that follow , and all of them pertinent to the matter before me . they were used , sozom. l. 2. c. 16. at alexandria , to keep yearly a solemn festival to the memory of peter , one of their former bishops , upon the same day that he suffered martyrdom , which alexander having celebrated at the church , with publick devotion , was sitting after at home , expecting some guests to dine with him , sozom. l. 2. c. 16. as he was alone , and looking towards the sea-side , he saw a pretty way off , the boys upon the beach , at an odd recreation , imitating it seems the rites of the church , and office of the bishops ; and was much delighted with the sight , as long as it appear●d an innocent and harmless representation : but when he observed them at last how they acted , they very administration of the sacred mysteries , he was much troubled ; and sending for some of the chief of his clergy , caused the boys to be taken and brought before him . he asked them particularly what kind of sport they had been at , and what the words , and what the actions were that they had used in it . after their fear had hindred them a while from answering , and now they were afraid of being silent , they confess'd that a lad of their play-fellows , one athanasius , had baptized some of them that were not yet initiated to those sacred mysteries : whereupon alexander inquired the more accura●●ly what the bishop of the game had said , and what he did to the boys he ●ad baptized , what they also had answered or learned f●om him . at last , when alexander perceiv●d by them , that this pawn bishop had made all his removes right , and that the whole ecclesiastical order and rites had been duely observed in their interlude , he by the advice of his priests about him , approved of that mock-bap●ism ▪ and determined that the boys , being once in the simplicity of their minds dipped in the divine grace , ought not to be re-baptized , but he perfected it with the remaining mysteries , which it is only lawful for pri●sts to administer . and then he delivered athanasius and the rest of the boys that had acted the parts of presbyters and deacons , to their parents ; calling god to witness , that they should be educated in the ministry of the church , that they might pass their lives in that calling which they had chosen by imitation . but as for athanasius , in a short while after , alexander took him to live with him , and be his secretary , having caused him to be carefully educated in the schools of the best grammarians and rhetoricians ; and he grew , in the opinion of all that spoke with him , a discreet and eloquent person , and will give occasion to be more than once mentioned again in this discourse ; i have translated this , in a manner , word for word from the author . this good-natured old bishop alexander , that was so far from anathemising , that he did not so much as whip the boys for the pro●anation of the sacrament against the discipline of the church , but without more doing , left them , for ought i see , at liberty , to regenerate as many more lads upon the next holy-day , as they thought convenient : he socr. l. 1. c. 3. being a man that lived an easie and gentle life , had one day called his pri●sts , and the rest of his clergy together , and fell on philosophizing divinely among them , but somthing more subtly and curiously though i dare say he meant no harm ) than was usual , concerning the holy trinity . among the rest , one arrius , a priest too of alexandri● ▪ , was there present , a man who is described to have been a good disputant ; and others add , ●the capital accusations of those times ) that he had a mind to have been a bishop , and bore a great piq●e at alexander , for having been preferr'd before him to the see of alexandria but more are silent of any such matter ; and sozom. l. 1. c. 14. saith , he was in great esteem with his bishop . but arrius socr. l. 1 c. 3. hearing his discourse about the holy trinity , and the vnity in the trinity , conceiv'd that , as the bishop stated it , he had reason to suspect he was introducing af●sh , into the church , the heresie of sabellius the african , who fatebatur unum esse deum , & ita in unam essent●am trinitatem adducebat , nt assereret nullam esse vere subjectam proprietatem personi● , sed nomina mutari pro eo atque usus poscant , ut nuncde illo ut patre , nunc nt filio , nunc ut spiritu sancto disseratur : and thereupon , it seems , arrius argued warmly for that opinion which was directly contrary to the african , driving the bishop from one to a second , from a second to a third , seeming absurdity , which i studiously avoid the relation of ; that in all these things i may not give occasion for mens understandings to work by their memories , and propagate the same errors by the same means they were first occasion'd . but hereby arrius was himself blamed as the maintainer of those absurdities , which he affixed to the bishops opinion , as is usual in the heat and wrangle of disputation . whereas truth , for the most part , lies in the middle , but men ordinarily seek for it in the extremities . nor can i wonder that those ages were so fertile in what they called heresies , when being given to meddling with the mysteries of religion , further than humane apprehension , or divine revelation did or could lead them , some of the bishops were so ignorant and gross , but others so speculative , acute , and refining in the● conceptions , that there being moreover a good fat bishoprick to boot in the case , it is rather admirable to me how all the clergy from one end to tother , could escape from being , or being accounted hereticks . alexander hereupon , soz. l. 1. c. 14. instead of filling by ▪ more prudent methods this new controversie , took doubtless with a very good intention , a course that hath seldom been successful : makes himself judge of that wherein he had first been the party , and calling to him some others of his clergy , would needs sit in publick , to have a solemn for disp●●●tion about the whole matter . and while arrius was at it tooth and nail against his opposers , and the arguments flew so thick , that they darkned the air , and no man could yet judge which side should have the victory , the good bishop for his part sat hay now hay , neither could tell in his conscience of a long time , which had the better of it ; but sometimes he lean'd on one side , and then on the other , and now incouraged and commended those of one party , and presently the contrary ; but at last , by his own weight , he cast the scales against arrius . and from thence forward , he excommunicating arrius for obstinacy ; and arrius writing in behalf , and his followers to the bishops , each one stating his own ▪ and his adversaries case , with the usual ●andor of such men in such matters ; the bishops too all over , began to divide upon it , and after them their people . insomuch , that constantine , out of a true paternal sense and care , found necessary to send a very prudent and eminent person to alexandria , to try if he could accommodate the matter , giving him a letter to alexander and arrius : how discreet , how christian-like , i never read any thing of that nature equal to it , it is too long for me here to insert , but i gladly recommend my reader to it in the 2. eus. de vitâ const. c. 67. where he begins , i understand the foundation of the controversie to have been this , that thou alexander didst inquire of thy priests concerning a passage in the scripture ; nay , didst ask them concerning a frivolous quillet of a question , what was each of their opinions : and thou arrius didst inconsiderately babble what thou neither at the beginning couldst conceive ; and if thou hadst conceived so , oughtest not to have vented , &c. but the clergy having got this once in the wind , there was no beating them off the scent . which induced constantine to think the convening of this council the only remedy to these disorders . and a woful ado he had with them , when they were met to manage and keep them in any tolerable decorum . it seemed like an ecclesiastical cock-pit , and a man might have laid wagers either way , the two parties contending in good earnest , either for the truth or the victory , but the more unconcern'd , like cunning betters , sate judiciously hedging , and so ordered their matter , that which side soever prevail'd , they would be sure to be the winners . they were indeed a most venerable assembly , composed of some holy , some grave , some wise , and some of them learned persons : and constantine had so charitably burnt the accusations they intended against one another , which might otherwise have depopulated and dispirited the council , that all of them may be presumed in one or other respect , to have made a great character . but i observe soz. l. 1. c. 16. that these great bishops , although they only had the decisive voices , yet thought fit to bring along with them , certain men that were cunning at an argument , to be auxiliary to them when it came to hard and tough disputation ; besides , that they had their priests and deacons ready at a de●k lift , always to assist them : so that their understandings seem'd to be sequester'd , and for their daily faith , they depended upon what their chap●●ins would allow them . and in that quality athanasius there waited upon alexander , being his deacon , ( for as yet it seems arch-bishops nor arch●eacons were invented . ) and it is not improbable that athanasius having so ●●rly personated the bishop , and seeing the declining age of alexander , would be careful that arrius should not step betwixt him and home upon vacancy , but did his best against him to ba● up his way , as it shortly after happened ; athanasius succeeding after the council in the see of alexandria . in the mean time you may imagine hypostasis , persona , substantia , subsistentia , essentia , co●ssentialis , consubstantialis , ante saecula coaeternus , &c. were by so many disputants pick'd to the very bones , and those too broken afterwards , to come to the marrow of divinity . and never had constantine in his life , so hard a task , as to bring them to any rational results ; meekly and patiently , euseb. l. 3. c. 13. de vitâ const. listning to ev●ry one , taking every mans opinion , and without the acrimony with which it was delivered , helping each party where they disagreed , reconciling them by degrees when they were in the fiercest contention , conferring wish them apart courteously and mildly , telling them what was his own opinion of the matter : which though some exceptious persons may alleadge to have been against the nature of a ●ree council , yet truly , unless he had taken that course , i cannot imagine how possibly he could ever have brought them to any conclusion . and thus this first , great , general council of nice , with which the world had gone big so long , and which look'd so big upon all christendom , at last was brought in bed ; and after a very hard labour , deliver'd of homoousios . they all subscrib'd to the new creed , except some seventeen , who it seems had rather to be hereticks than bishop . for now the anathema's were published , and whoever held the contrary , was to be punish'd by deprivation and banishment , all arrian books to be burned ; and whoever should be discover'd to conceal any of arrius his writings , to die for it . but it fared very well with those who were not such fools as to own his opinion . all they were entertain'd by the emperor at a magnificent feast ; receiv'd from his hand rich pr●sents , and were honourably dismist , with letters recommending their great abilities and performance to the provinces , and enjoyning the nicene creed to be hence forth observed . with that stroke of the pen. socr. l. 1. c. 6. for what three hundred bishops have agreed on , ( a thing indeed extraordinary ) ought not to be otherwise conceiv'd of than as the decree of god almighty , especially seeing the holy ghost did sit upon the minds of such and so excellent men , and open'd his divine will to them . so that they went i trow with ample satisfaction ; and , as they could not but take the emperor for a very civil , generous , and obliging gentleman , so they thought the better of themselves from that day forward . and how budge must they look when they returned back to their diocesses , having every one of 'em been a principal limn of the oecumenical , apostolical , catholick , orthodox council ! when the catachrestical title of the church and the clergy were so appropriate to them by custom , that the christian people had relinquished or forgotten their claim ; when every hare that crossed their way homeward , was a schismatick or an heretick ; and if their horse stumbled with one of them , he incurr'd an anathema . well it was that their journeys lay so many several ways , for they were grown so cumbersom and great , that the emperor's high-way was too narrow for any two of them , and there could have been no passage without the removal of a bishop . but soon after the council was over , eusebius the bishop of nicomedia , and theognis the bishop of nice , who were already removed , both by banishment , and two others put in their places , were quickly restor'd upon their petition ; wherein they suggested the cause of their not signing to have been only , because they thought they could not with a safe conscience subscribe the anathema against arrius , appearing to them both by his writings , his discourses , and sermons , that they had been auditors of , not to be guilty of those errors . as for arrius himself , the emperor quickly wrote to him . it is now a considerable time since i wrote to your gravity to come to my tents , that you might enjoy my countenance ; so that i can s●arce wonder sufficiently why you have so long delaid it : therefore now take one of the publick coaches , and make all speed to my tents , that , having had experience of my kindness and affection to you , you may return into your own country . god preserve you most dear sir. arrius hereupon ( with his comrade euzoius ) comes to constantine's army , a●d offers him a petition , with a confession of faith that would have pass'd very well before the nicene council , and now satisfied the emperor , socr. l. 1. c. 19 , & 20. insomuch that he writ to athanasius , now bishop of alexandria , to receive him into the church : but athanasius was of better mettle than so , and absolutely refus'd it . upon this constantine writ him another threatning letter : when you have understood hereby my pleasure , see that you afford free entrance into the church , to all that desire it : for if i shall understand that any who desires to be admitted into the church , should be either hindred or forbidden by you , i will send some one of my servants to remove you from your degree , and place another in your stead . yet atha●asius stood it out still , though other churches received him into communion : and the her●tick novatus could not have been more unrelenting to lapsed christians , than he was to arrius . but this , joyned with other crimes , which were laid to athanasius his charge , at the council of tyre , ( though i suppose indeed they were forged ) made athanasius glad to fly for it , and remain the first time in exile . upon this whole matter , it is my impartial opinion that arrius , or whosoever else were guilty of teaching and publishing those errors whereof he was accused , deserved the utmost severity , which consists with the christian religion . and so willing i have been to think well of athanasius , and ill of the other , that i have on purpose avoided the reading , as i do the naming of a book that i have heard , tells the story quite otherwise , and have only made use of the current historians of those times , who all of them , tell it against the arrians . only i will confess , that as in reading a particular history at adventure , a man finds himself inclinable to favour the weaker party , especially if the conqueror appear insolent ; so have i been affected in reading these authors , which does but resemble the reasonable pity that men ordinarily have too , for those , who though for an erroneous conscience , suffer under ● christian magistrate . and as soon as i come to constantius , i shall for that reason change my compassion , and be doubly engaged on the orthodox party . but as to the whole matter of the council of nice , i must crave liberty to say , that from one end to the other , though the best of the kind , it seems to me to have been a pitiful humane business , attended with all the ill circumstances of other worldly affairs , conducted by a spirit of ambition and contention , the first , and so the greatest occumenical blow that by christians was given to christianity . and it is not from any sharpness of humor that i discourse thus freely of things a●d persons , much less of orders of men otherwise venerable , but that where ought is extolled beyond reason , and to the prejudice of religion , it is necessary to depreciate it by true proportion . it is not their censure of arianism , or the declaring of their opinion in a controverted point to the best of their understanding , ( wherein to the smalness of mine , they appear to have light upon the truth , had they likewise upon the measure ) that could have moved me to tell so long a story , or bring my self within the danger and aim of any captious reader , speaking thus with great liberty of mind , but little concern for any prejudice i may receive , of things that are by some men idolized . but it is their imposition of a new article or creed upon the christian world , not being contained in express words of scripture , to be believed with divine faith , under spiritual and civil penalties , contrary to the priviledges of religion , and their making a precedent follow'd and improv'd by all succeeding ages for most cruel persecutions , that only could animate me . in digging thus for a new deduction , they undermined the fabrick of christianity , to frame a particular doctrine , they departed from the general rule of their religion ; and for their curiosity about an article concerning christ , they violated our saviour's first institution of a church , not subject to any addition in matters of faith , nor liable to compulsion , either in belief or in practice . far be it from me in the event , as it is from my intention , to derogate from the just authority of any of those creeds or confessions of faith that are receiv'd by our church upon clear agreement with the scripture : nor shall i therefore , unless some mens impertinence and indiscretion hereafter oblige me , pretend to any further knowledg of what in those particulars appears in the ancient histories . but certainly if any creed had been necessary , or at the least necessary to have been imposed , our saviour himself would not have left his church destitute in a thing of that moment . or however , after the holy ghost , upon his departure , was descended upon the apostle , and they the elders and brethren ( for so it was then ) were assembled in a legitimate council at ierusalem , it would have seemed good to the holy ghost and them , to have saved the council of nice that labour , or at least the apostle paul , 2 cor. 12. 2. and 4. who was caught up into paradise , and heard unspeakable words , which it is not lawful for any man to utter , having thereby a much better opportunity than athanasius , to know the doctrine of the trinity , would not have been wanting , through the abundance of that revelation , to form a creed for the church , sufficient to have put that business beyond controversie . especially seeing heresies were sprung up so early , and he foresaw others , and therefore does prescribe the method how they are to be dealt with , but no creed that i read of . shall any sort of men presume to interpret those words , which to him were unspeakable , by a gibbrish of their imposing , and force every man to cant after them , what it is not lawful for any man to utter ? christ and his apostles speak articulately enough in the scriptures , without any creed , as much as we are or ought to be capable of . and the ministry of the gospel is useful and most necessary , if it were but to press us to the reading of them , to illustrate one place by the authority of another , to inculcate those duties which are therein required , quickning us both to faith and practice , and showing within what bounds they are both circumscribed by our saviour's doctrine . and it becomes every man to be able to give a reason and account of his faith , and to be ready to do it , without officiously gratifying those who demand it only to take advantage : and the more christians can agree in one confession of faith , the better . but that we should believe ever the more for a creed , it cannot be expected . in those days , when creeds were most plenty and in ●ashion , and every one had them at their fingers end , 't was the bible that brought in the reformation . 't is true , a man would not stick to take two or three creeds for a need , rather than want a living ; and if a man have not a good swallow , 't is but wrapping them up in a liturgy , like a wafer , and the whole dose will go down currently ; especially if he wink at the same time , and give his assent and consent without ever looking on them . but without jesting , for the matter is too serious . every man is bound to work out his own salvation with fear and trembling , and therefore to use all helps possible for his best satisfaction ; hearing , conferring , reading , praying for the assistance of god's spirit : but when he hath done this , he is his own expositor , his own both minister and people , bishop and diocess , his own council ; and his conscience excusing or condemning him , accordingly he escapes or incurs his own internal anathema . so that when it comes once to a creed , made and imposed by other men as a matter of divine faith , the case grows very delicate ; while he cannot apprehend , though the imposer may , that all therein is clearly contained in scripture , and may fear , being caught in the expressions , to oblige himself to a latitude or restriction , further than comports with his own sense and judgment . a christian of honour , when it comes to this once , will weigh every word , every syllable ; nay further , if he consider that the great business of this council of nice was but one single letter of the alphabet , about the inserting or omitting of an iota . there must be either that exactness in the form of such a creed , as i dare say , no men in the world ever were or ever will be able to modulate : or else this scrupulous private judgment must be admitted , or otherwise all creeds become meer instruments of equivocation or persecution . and i must confess , when i have sometimes considered with my self the dulness of the non-con●ormists , and the acuteness on the contrary of the episcoparians , and the conscientiousness of both ; i have thought that our church might safely wave the difference with them about ceremonies , and try it upon the creeds , which were both the more honourable way , and more suitable to the method of the ancient councils , and yet perhaps might do their business as effectually . for one that is a christian in good earnest , when a creed is imposed , will sooner eat fire , thatn take it against his judgment . there have been martyrs for reason , and it was manly in them : but how much more would men be so for reason religionated and christianized ! but it is an inhumane and unchristian thing of those faith-stretchers , whosoever they be , that either put mens persons , or their consciences upon the torture , or rack them to the length of their notions : whereas the bereans are made gentlemen , and innobled by patent in the acts , because they would not credit paul himself , whose writings now make so great a part of the new testament , until they had searched the scripture daily , whether those things were so , and therefore many of them believed . and therefore , although where there are such creeds , christians may for peace and conscience-sake acquiesce while there appears nothing in them flatly contrary to the words of the scripture : yet when they are obtruded upon a man in particular , he will look very well about him , and not take them upon any humane authority . the greatest pretence to authority , is in a council . but what then ? shall all christians therefore take their formularies of divine worship or belief upon trust , as writ in tables of stone , like the commandments , deliver'd from heaven , and to be obeyed in the instant , not considered ; because three hundred and eighteen bishops are met in abraham's great hall , of which most must be servants , and some children ; and they have resolv'd upon 't in such a manner ? no , a good christian will not , cannot atturn and indenture his conscience over , to be represented by others . it is not as in secular matters where the states of a kingdom are deputed by their fellow subjects to transact for them , so in spiritual : or suppose it were , yet 't were necessary , as in the polish constitution , that nothing should be obligatory as long as there is one dissenter , where no temporal interests , but every mans eternity and salvation are concerned . the soul is too precious to be let out at interest upon any humane security that does or may fail ; but it is only safe when under god's custody , in its own cabinet ▪ but it was a general council . a special general indeed , if you consider th● proportion of three hundred and eighteen to the body of the christian clergy , but much more to all christian man-kind . but it was a general free council of bishops . i do not think it possible for any council to be free , that is composed out of bishops , and where they only have the decisive voices . nor that a free council that takes away christian liberty . but that , as it was ●ounded upon usurpation , so it terminated in imposition . but 't is meant , that it was free from all external impulsion . i confess that good meat and drink , and lodging , and money in a man's purse , and coaches , and servants , and horses to attend them , did no violence to 'em , nor was there any false article in it . and discoursing now with one , and then another of 'em in particular , and the emperor telling them this is my opinion , i understand it thus ; and afterwards declaring his mind frequently to them in publick ; no force neither . ay , but there was a shrewd way of persuasion in it . and i would be glad to know when ever , and which free general council it was that could properly be called so ; but was indeed a meer imperial or ecclesiastical machine , no free agent , but wound up , set on going , and l●t down by the direction and hand of the workman . a general free council is but a word of art , and can never happen but under a fifth monarch , and that monarch too , to return from heaven . the animadverter will not allow the second general council of nice to have been free , because it was over-aw'd by an empress , and was guilty of a great fault ( which no council at liberty he saith could have committed ) the decree for worshipping of images . at this rate a christian may scuffle however for one point among them , and chuse which council he likes best . but in good earnest , i do not see but that constantine might as well at this first council of nice , have negotiated the image worship , as to pay that superstitious adoration to the bishops , and that prostration to their creeds was an idolatry more pernicious in the consequence , to the christian faith , then that under which they so lately had suffer'd persecution . nor can a council be said to have been at liberty , which lay under so great and many obligations . but the holy ghost was present , where there were three hundred and eighteen bishops , and directed them , or three hundred . then , if i had been of their council , they should have sate at it all their lives , lest they should never see him again after they were once risen . but it concerned them to settle their quorum at last by his dictates ; otherwise no bishop could have been absent or gone forth upon any accusation , but he let him out again : and it behov'd to be very punctual in the adjournments . 't is a ridiculous conception , and as gross as to make him of the same substance with the council . nor needs there any stronger argument of his absence , then their pretense to be actuated by him , and in doing such work . the holy spirit ! if so many of them , when they got together , acted like rational men , 't was enough in all reason , and as much as could be expected . but this was one affectation , among many others , which the bishops took up so early , of the stile , priviledges , powers , and some actions and gestures peculiar and inherent to the apostles , which they misplaced to their own behoof and useage ; nay , and challenged other things as apostol●cal , that were directly contrary to the doctrine and practice of the apostles . for so because the holy spirit did in an extraordinary manner preside among the holy apostles at that legitimate council of ierusalem , acts 15. they , although under an ordinary administration , would not go less whatever came on 't : nay , whereas the apostles , in the drawing up of their decree , dictated to them by the holy spirit , said therefore no more but thus : the apostles , elders , and brethren , send greeting unto the brethren of , &c. forasmuch as , &c. it seemed good to the holy ghost and us , to lay upon you no greater burthen than these necessary things ; that ye abstain from , &c. from which if ye keep your selves , you shall do well . fare ye well . this council denounces every invention of its own ; ( far from the apostolical modesty , and the stile of the holy spirit ) under no less than an anathema . such was their arrogating to their inferior degrees , the stile of clergy , till custom hath so much prevailed , that we are at a loss how to speak properly either of the name or nature of their function . whereas the clergy , in the true and postolical sense , were only those whom they superciliously always call the laity : the word clerus being never but once used in the new testament ▪ and in that signification , and in a very unlucky place too , pet. 1. 5 , 3. where he admonishes the priesthood , that they should not lord it , or domineer over the christian people , clerum domini , or the lord's inheritance . but having usurp'd the title , i confess they did right to assume the power . but to speak of the priesthood in that style which they most affect , if we consider the nature too of their function , what were the clergy then , but lay-men disguis'd , drest up perhaps in another habit ? did not st. paul himself , being a tent-maker , rather than be idle or burthensome to his people , work of his trade , even during his apostleship , to get his living ? but did not these , that they might neglect their holy vocation , seek to compass secular imployments , and lay-offices ? were not very many of them , whether one respect their vices or ignorance , as well qualified as any other to be lay men ? was it not usual , as oft as they merited it , to restore them , as in the case even of the three bishops , to the lay-communion ? and whether , if they were so peculiar from others , did the imposition of the bishops hands , or the listing up the hands of the laity , confer more to that distinction ? and constantine , notwithstanding his complement at the burning of the bishops papers , thought he might make them , and unmake them with the same power as he did his other lay-officers . but if the inferior degrees were the clergy , the bishops would be the church : although that word in the scripture-sense , is proper only to a congregation of the faithful . and being by that title the only men in ecclesiastical councils , then when they were once assembled they were the catholick church , and , having the holy spirit at their devotion , whatsoever creed they light upon , that was the catholick faith , without the believing of which , no man can be saved . by which means there rose thenceforward so constant persecutions till this day , that , had not the little invisible catholick church , & a people that always search'd and believ'd the scriptures , made a stand by their testimonies and sufferings , the creeds had destroy'd the faith , and the church had ruined the religion . for this general council of nice , and all others of the same constitution , did , and can serve to no other end or effect , than particular order of men by their usurping a trust upon christianity , to make their own price and market of it , and deliver it up as oft as they see their own advantage . for scarce was constantine's head cold , but his son constantius , succeeding his brothers , being influenced by the bishops of the arrian party , turn'd the wrong side of christianity outward , inverted the poles of heaven , and faith ( if i may say so ) with its heels in the air , was forced to stand upon its head , and play gambols , for the divertisment and pleasure of the homoiousians . arrianism was the divinity then in mode , and he was an ignorant and ill courtier , or church●man , that could not dress , and would not make a new sute for his conscience in the fashion . and now the orthodox bishops ( it being given to those men to be obstinate for power , but flexible in faith ; ) began to wind about insensibly , as the heliotrope flower that keeps its ground , but wrests its neck in turning after the warm sun , from day-break to evening . they could look now upon the synod of nice with more indifference , and all that pudder that had been made there betwixt homoousius and homoi●usius , &c. began to appear to them as a difference only arising from the inadequation ●f languages : till by degrees they were drawn over , and rather than lose their b●●hopricks , would joyn , and at last be the head●most in the persecution of their own former party . but the deacons , to be sure , that steer'd the elephants , were thorow-paced ; men to be reckon'd and relied upon in this or any other occasion , and would prick on , to render themselves capable and episcopable , upon the first vacancy . for now the arrians in grain , scorning to come behind the clow●ish homoousians , in an ecclesiastical civility , were resolved to give them their full of persecution . and it seem'd a piece of wit rather than malice , to pay them in their own coin , and to burlesque then in earnest , by the repetition and heightning of the same severities upon them , that they had practised upon others . h●d you the homoousians a creed at nice ? we will have another creed for you at ariminum , and at seleucia . would you not be content with so many several projects of faith consonant to scripture , unless you might thrust the new word homoousios down our throats , and then tear it up again , to make us confess it ? tell us the word , ( 't was homoiousios ) we are now upon the guard , or else we shall run you thorow . would you anathemize , banish , imprison , execute us , and burn our books ? you shall taste of this christian fare , and as you relish it , you shall have more on 't provided . and thus it went , arrianism being triumphant , but the few sincere or stomachful bishops , adhering constantly , and with a true christian magnanimity , especially athanasius , thorow all sufferings unto their former confessions , expiated so in some measure , what they had committed in the nicene council . sozomen , l. 4. c. 25. first tells us a story of eudoxius , who succeeded macedonius , in the bishoprick of constantinople ; that in the cathedral of sancta sophia , being mounted in his episcopal throne , the first time that they assembled for its dedication , in the very beginning of his sermon to the people ( those things were already come in fashion ) told them : patrem impium esse , filium autem pium ; at which then they began to bustle ; pray be quiet , saith he ; i say , patrem impium esse , quia colit neminem , filium vero pium quia colit patrem ; at which they then laughed as heartily , as before they were angry . but this i only note to this purpose , that there were some of the greatest bishops among the homoioousians , as well as the homousians , that could not reproach one anothers simplicity , and that it was not impossible for the many to be wiser and more orthodox than the few , in divine matters . that which i cite him for as most material , is , the remark upon the imposition then of contrary creeds : which verily , faith he , was plainly the beginning of most great calamities , forasmuch as hereupon there followed a disturbance , not unlike those which we before recited over the whole empire ; and likewise a persecution equal almost to that of the heathen emperors , seized upon all of all churches . for , although it seemed to some more gentle , for what concerns the torture of the body , yet to prudent persons it appeared more bitter and severe , by reason of the dishonour and ignominy . for both they who stirred up , and those that were afflicted with this persecution , were of the christian church ; and the grievance therefore was the greater and more ugly , in that the same things which are done among enemies , were executed between those of the same tribe and profession : but the holy law forbids us to carry our selves in that manner , even to those that are without , and aliens . and all this mischief sprung from making of creeds , with which the bishops , as it were at tilting , aim'd to hit one another in the eye , and throw the opposite party out of the saddle . but i● it chanced that the weaker side were ready to yield , ( for what sort of men was there that could better manage , or had their consciences more at command at that time than the clergy ? ) then the arrians would use a yet longer , thicker , and sharper lance for the purpose ▪ ( for there were never vacancies sufficient that they might be sure to run them down , over , and thorow , and do their business . the creed of ariminum was now too short for the design ; but , saith the historian , they affix'd further articles like labels to it , pretending to have made it better , and so sent i● thorow the empire with constantius his proclamation , that whoever would not subscribe it , should be banished . nay , they would not admit their own beloved similis substantia ; but to do the work throughly , the arrians renounc'd their own creed for malice , and made it an article ; filium patri tam substantia , quam voluntate , dissimilem esse . but this is a small matter with any of them , provided thereby they may do service to the church , that is their party . so that one ( seriously speaking ) that were really orthodox , could not then defend the truth or himself , but by turning of arrian , if he would impugn the new ones ; such was the subtilty . what shall i say more ? as the arts of glass coaches and perriwigs illustrate this age , so by their trade of creed-making , then first invented , we may esteem the wisdom of constantine's , and constantius his empire . and in a short space , as is usual among tradesmen , where it appears gainful , they were so many that set up of the same profession , that they could fearce live by one another . socr. l. 2. c. 32. therefore uses these words : but now that i have tandem aliquando , run through this labyrinth of so many creeds , i will gather up their number : and so reckons nine creeds more , besides that of nice , before the death of constantine , ( a blessed number . ) and i believe i could for a need , make them up a dozen , if men have a mind to buy them so . and hence it was that hilary , then bishop of poictiers , represents that state of the church pleasantly , yet sadly , since the nicene synod , saith he , we do nothing but write creeds . that while we fight about words whilst we raise questions about novelties , while we quarrel about things doubtful , and about authors , while we contend in parties , while there is difficulty in consent , while we anat●ematize one another , there is none now almost that is christ's . what a change there is in the last years creed ? the first decree commands that homoousion should not be mentioned . the next does again decree and publish homoousios . the third does by indulgence excuse the word ousia , as used by the fathers in their simplicity . the fourth does not excuse , but condemn it . it is come to that at last that nothing among us , or those before us , can remain sacred or inviolable . we decree every year of the lord , a new creed concerning god : nay , every change of the moon our faith is alter'd . we repent of our decrees , we defend those that repent of them ; we anathematize those that we defended ; and while we either condemn other mens opinions in our own , or our own opinions in those of other men , and bite at one another , we are now all of us torn in picees . this bishop sure was the author of the naked truth , and 't was he that implicit●ly condemn'd the whole catholick ●hurch , both east and west , for being too presumptuous in her definitions . it is not strange to me , that iulian , being but a reader in the christian church , should turn pagan : especially when i consider that he succeeded emperor after constantius . for it seems rather unavoidable that a man of great wit , as he was , and not having the grace of god to direct it , and show him the beauty of religion , through the deformity of its governours and teachers ; but that he must conceive a loathing and aversion for it , nor could he think that he did them any injustice , when he observed that , beside all their unchristian immorality too , they practised thus , against the institutive law of their galilean , the persecution among themselves for religion . and well might he add to his other severities , that sharpness of his wit , both exposing and animadverting upon them , at another rate than any of the modern pactitioners with all their study and inclination , can ever arrive at . for nothing is more punishable , contemptible , and truly ridiculous , than a christian that walks contrary to his profession : and by how much any man stands with more advantage in the church for eminency , but disobeys the laws of christ by that priviledge , he is thereby , and deserves to be the more exposed . but iulian , the last heathen emperor , by whose cruelty it seemed that god would sensibly admonish once again the christian clergy , and show them by their own smart , and an heathen-hand , the nature and odiousness of persecution , soon died , as is usual for men of that imployment , not without a remarkable stroke of gods judgment . yet they , as they were only sorry that they had lost so much time , upon his death strove as eagerly to redeem it , and forthwith fell in very naturally into their former animosities . for iovianus being chosen emperor in persia , and returning homeward , socr. l. 3. c. 20. the bishops of each party , in hopes that their's should be the imperial creed , strait to horse , and rode away with switch and spur , as if it had been for the plate , to meet him , and he that had best heels , made himself cock●sure of winning the religion . the macedonians , who dividing from the arrians , had set up for a new heresie concerning the holy ghost , ( and they were a squadron of bishops petition'd him that those who held , filium patri dissimilem , might be turn'd out , and themselves put in their places : which was very honestly done , and above-board . the acacian● , that were the refined arrians , but , as the author saith , had a notable faculty of addressing themselves to the inclination of whatsoever emperor , and having good intelligence that he balanced rather to the consubstantials , presentend him with a very fair insinuating subscription , of a considerable number of bishops to the council of nice . but in the next emperor's time they will be found to yield little reverence to their own subscription . for in matter of a creed , a note of their hand , without expressing the penalty , could not it seems bind one of their order . but all that iovianus said to the macedonians , was ; i hate contention , but i lovingly imbrace and reverence those who are inclined to peace and concord . to the acacians , who had wisely given these the precedence of application , to try the truth of their intelligence , he said no more ( having resolv'd by sweetness and persuasions to quiet all their controversies ) but , that he would not molest any man whatsoever creed be follow'd , but those above others he would cherish and honour , who should show themselves most forward in bringing the church to a good agreement . he likewise call'd back all those bishops who had been banished by constantius and iulian , restoring them to their sees . and he writ a letter in particular to athanasius , who upon iulian●s death had enter'd again upon that of alexandria , to bid him be of good courage . and th●se things coming to the ears of all others , did wonderfully assuage the fierceuess of those who were inflamed with faction and contention : so that , the court having declared it self of this mind , the church was in a short time in all outward appearance peaceably disposed , the emperor by this means having wholly repressed all their violence . verily , concludes the historian , the roman empire had been prosperous and happy , and both the state and the church ●he puts them too in that order ) under so good a prince , must have exceedingly flour●shed , had not an immature death taken him away from managing the government . for after seven months , being seized with a mortal obstruction ▪ he departed this life . did not this historian , ●row you , deserve to be handled , and is it not , now the mischief is done , to undo the charm , become a duty , to expose both him and iovi●nus ? by their ill chosen principles , what would have become of the prime and most necessary article of faith ? might not the old dormant heresies , all of them safely have revived ? but that mortal obstruction of the bishops , was not by his death ( not is it by their own to be ) removed . they were glad he was so soon got out of their way , and god would yet further manifest their intractable spirit , which not the persecution of the heathen emperor iulian , nor the gen●leness of iovianus the christian , could allay or mitigate by their afflictions or prosperity . the divine nemesis executed justice upon them , by one anothers hand : and so hainou a crime as for a christian , a bishop , to persecute , stood yet in need , as the only equal and exemplary punishment , of being revenged with a persecution by christians , by bishops . and whosoever shall seriously consider all along the suc●essions of the emperors , can never have taken that satisfaction in the most judicious representations of the scene , which he may in this worthy speculation of the great order and admirable conduct of wise providence ; through the whole contexture of these exterior seeming accidents , relating to the ecclesiasticals of christianity . for to iovianus succeeded valentinian , who in a short time took his brother valens to be his companion in the empire . these two brothers did as the historian observes , socr. l 4. c. 1. ( alike , and equally take care at the beginning , for the advantage and government of the state ) but very much disagreed , though both christians , in matters of religion : valetinianus the elder , being an orthodox , but valens an arrian , and they used a different method toward the christians . for valentinian ( who chose the western part of the empire , and left the east to his brother ) as he imbraced those of his own creed , so yet he did not in the least molest the arrians , but valens not only labor'd to increase the number of the arrians , but afflicted those of the contrary opinion with grievous punishments . and both of 'm , especially valens , had bishops for their purpose . the particulars of that heavy persecution under valens , any one may further satisfie himself of in the writers of those times : and yet it is observable , that within a little space , while he pursued the orthodox bishops , he gave liberty to the novatians , ( who were of the same creed , but separated from them , a● i have said , upon discipline , &c. ) and caused their churches , which for a while were shut up , to be opened again at constantinople . to be short , valens ( who out-lived his brother , that died of a natural death ) himself in a battel against the goths , could not escape neither the fate of a christian persecutor . for the goths having made application to him , be , saith socrates , not well fore-seeing the consequence , admitted them to inhabit in certain places of thracia , pleasing himself that he should by that means , always have an army ready at hand against whatsoever enemies ; and that those foraign guards would strike them with a greater terror , more by far than the militia of his subjects . and so slighting the ancient veterane militia , which used to consist of bodies of men , raised proportionably in every province , and were stout fellows that would fight manfully ; instead of them he levied money , rating the country at so much for every souldier . but these new inmates of the emperors soon grew troublesom , as is customary , and not only in●ested the natives in thracia , but plunder'd even the suburbs of constantinople , there being no armed force to repress them : hereupon the whole people of the city cried out at a publick spectacle , where valens was prosent neglecting this matter , give us arms and we will manage this war our selves . this extreamly provok'd him , so that he forthwith made an expedition against the goths : but threatned the citizens if he return'd in safety , to be reveng'd on them both for those con●umelies , and for what under the tyrant procopius , they had committed against the empire ; and that he would raze to the ground , and plow up the city . yet before his departure out of the fear of the foraign enemy , be totally ceas'd from persecuting the orthodox in constantinople . but he was kill'd in the fight , or flying into a village that the goths had set on fire , he was burns to ashes , to the great grief of his bishops ; who , had he been victorious , might have revived the persecution . such was the end of his impetuous reign and rash counsels , both as to his government of state , in matters of peace and war , and his manage of the church by persecution . his death brings me to the succession of theodosi●s the great , then whom no christian emperor did more make it his business to nurse up the church , and to lull the bishops , to keep the house in quiet . but neither was it in his power to still their bawling , and scratching one another , as far as their nails ( which were yet more tender , but afterwards grew like tallons ) would give them leave . i shall not further vex the history , or the reader , in recounting the particulars ; taking no delight neither may self in so uncomfortable relations , or to reflect beyond what is necessary upon the wolfishness of those which then seemed , and ought to have been the christian pastors , but went on scatt●ring their flocks , if not devouring ; and the shepherds smiting one another . in his reign , the second general council was called , that of constantinople , and the creed was there made , which took its name from the place : the rest of their business , any one that is further curious , may observe in the writers . but i shall close this with a short touch concerning gregory nazianzen , then living , than whom also the christian church had not in those times ( and i question whether in any succeeding ) a bishop that was more a christian , more a gentleman , better appointed in all sorts of learning requisite , seasoned under iulian's persecution , and exemplary to the highest pitch of true religion and practical piety . the eminence of these vertues , and in special of his humility ( the lowliest , but the highest of all christian qualifications ) raised him under theodosius ▪ from the parish-like bishoprick of nazianzum , to that of constantinople , where he fill'd his place in that council . but having taken notice in what manner things were carried in that , as they had been in former councils , and that some of the bishops muttered at his promotion ; he of his own mind resigned that great bishoprick , which was never of his desire or seeking ; and , though so highly seated in the emperors reverence and favor , so acceptable to the people , and generally to the clergy , whose unequal abilities could not pretend or justifie an envy against him ; retired back far more content , to a solitary life , to his little nazianzum . and from thence he writes that letter to his friend procopius , wherein p. 418. upon his most recollected and serious reflexion on what had faln within his observation , he useth these remarkable words : i have resolved with my self ( if i may tell you the naked truth , ) never more to come into any assembly of bishops : for i never saw a good and happy end of any council , but which rather increased than remedied the mischiefs . for their obstinate contentions and ambition are unexpressible . it would require too great a volume to deduce , from the death of theodo●●s , the particulars that happened in the succeeding reigns about this matter . but the reader may reckon that it was as stated a quarrel betwixt the homoousians , and the homoiousians , as that between the houses of york and lancaster : and th●●● a rose now an emperor of one line , and then again of the other . but among all the bishops , there was not one morton , whose industrious brain could or would ( for some men always reap by division ) make up the fatal breach 〈◊〉 the two creeds . by this means every creed was grown up to a test. and under that pretence , the dextrous bishops step by step hooked within th●ir verge , all the business and power that could be catched in those turbul●nces , where they mudled the water , and fished after . by this means they stalked on first to a spiritual kind of dominion , and from that incroached upon and into the civil jurisdiction . a bishop now grew terrible , and ( whereas a simple layman might have frighted the devil with the first words of the apostles creed , and i defie thee satan ) one creed could not protect him from a bishop , and it required a much longer , and a double and treble confession , unless himself would be delivered over to satan by an anathema . but this was only an ecclesiastical sentence at first , with which they marked out such as sinned against them , and then whoop'd and hallow'd on the civil magistrate , to hunt them down for their spiritual pleasure . they crept at first by court insinuations and flattery into the princes favor , till those generous creatures suffered themselves to be backed and ridden by them , who would take as much of a free horse as possible : but in persecution the clergy as yet , wisely interposed the magistrate betwixt themselves and the people , not caring to their end were attained , how odious they rendred him : and you may observe that for the most part hitherto , they stood crouching and shot either over the emperors back , or under his belly . but in process of time they became bolde and open●fac'd , and persecuted before the sun at mid-day . bishops grew wo●se , but bishopricks every day better and better . there was now no eusebius left to refuse the bishoprick of antiochia , whom therefore constantine told , that he deserv'd the bishoprick of the whole world for that modesty . they were not such fools as ammonius parates , i warrant you , in the time of theodosius . he , socr. l. 6. c. 30. being seised upon by some that would needs make him a bishop , when he could not perswade them to the contrary , cut off one of his ears , telling them that now should he himself desire to be a bishop , he was by the law of priesthood incapable : ●ut when they observed that those things only obliged the jewish priesthood , and that the church of christ did not consider whether a priest were sound or perfect in limb of body , but only that he were intire in his manners ; they return'd to seize on him again : but when he saw them coming , he swore with a s●lemn oath that , if to consecrate him a bishop , they laid violent hands upon him , he would cut out his tongue also ▪ whereupon they fearing he would do it , desisted . what should have been the matter , that a man so learned and holy , should have such an aversion to be promoted in his own order ; that , rather than yield to be a compelled or compelling bishop , he would inflict upon himself as severe a martyrdom , as any persecutor could have done for him ? sure he saw somthing more in the very constitution , than some do at present . but this indeed was an example too rigid , and neither fit to have been done , nor to be imitated , as there was no danger . for far from this they followed the precedent rather of damasus , and v●sinus , which last , socr. l. 4. c. 24. in valentinian's time , perswaded certain obscure and object bishops ( for there were it seems of all sorts and sizes ) to create him bishop in a corner , and then ( so early ) he and damasus , who was much the better man , waged war for the bishoprick of rome , to the great scandal of the pagan writers , who made remarks for this and other things upon their christianity , and to the bloodshed and death of a multitude of the christian people . but this last i mention'd . only as a weak and imperfect essay in that time , of what it came to in the several ag●s after , which i am now speaking of , when the bishops were given , give thems●lves over to all manner of vice , luxury , pride , ignorance , superstition , covetousness , and monopolizing of all secular imployments and authority . nothing could escape them : they meddl●d , troubled themselves and others , with many things , every thing , forgetting that one , only needful . insomuch that i could not avoid wondring often , that among so many churches that with paganick rites they dedicated to saint mary , i have met with none to saint martha . but above all , imposition and cruelty became inherent to them , and the power of persecution was grown so good and desirable a thing , that they tho●ght the magistrate scarce worthy to be trusted with it longer , and a meer novi●e at it , and either wrested it out of his hands , or gently eased him of that and his other burdens of government . the sufferings of the laity were become the royalties of the clergy ; and , being very careful christians , the bishops , that no● a word of our saviours might fall to the ground , because he had fore●old how man should be persecuted for his names sake , they undertook to see it done ●●●ectually in their own provinces , and out of pure zeal of doing him the more service of this kind , inlarged studiously their diocesses beyond all proportion . like nostradamus his son , that to fulfil his father's prediction of a city in fra●ce , that should be burned ; with his own hands set ●t on fire . all the calamities of the christian world in those ages , may be derived from them , while they warm'd themselves at the flame ; and like lords of misrule , kept a perpetual christmas . what in the bishops name is the matter ▪ how came it about that christianity , which approved it self under all persecuions to the heathen emperors ▪ and merited their favor so fa● , till at last it regularly succeeded to the monarchy , should under those of their own profession be more distressed ? were there some christians then too , that feared still l●ft men should be christians , and for whom it was necessary , not for the gospel reason that there should be heresies . let us collect a little now also in the conclusion what at first was not particulariz'd , how the reason of state and measure of goverment stood under the roman emperours , in aspect to them . i omit tiberius , mention'd in the beginning of this essay . traja●e , after having persecuted them , and having used pliny the second in his province to that purpose , upon his relation that they lived in conformity to all laws , but that which forbad their worship , and in all other things were blameless , and good men , straitly by his edict commanded that none of them should be farther enquired after . hadrian , in his edict to min●tius fundanus , pro●consull of asia , commands him that , if any accuse the christians , and can prove it , that they commit any thing against the state , that then he punish them according to the crime : but if any man accuse them , meerly for calumny and vexation , as christians , then i' faith let him suffer for 't , and take you care that he feel the smart of it . antoninus pius writ his edict very remarkable , if there were place to recite it , to the states of asia assembled at ephesus ; wherein he takes notice of his fathers command , that unless the christians w●re were found to act any thing against the roman empire , they should not be molested , and then commands , that if any man thereafter shall continue to trouble them , tanquam tales , as christians , for their worship , in that case , he that is the informer , should be exposed to punishment , but the accused should be free and discharged . i could not but observe that among other things in this edict , where he is speaking . it is desirable to them that they may appear , being accused , more willing to die for their god than to live : he adds , it would not be amiss to admonish you concerning the earth quakes which have , and do now happen , that when you are afflicted at them , you would compare our affairs with theirs . they are thereby so much the more incouraged to a confidence and reliance upon god , but you all the while go on in your ignorance , and neglect both other gods , and the religion towards the immortal , and banish and persecute them unto death . which words of that emperors , fall in so naturally with what , it seems , was a common observation about earth-quakes , that i cannot but to that purpose take further notice , how also gregory nazianzen , in or. 2. contra gentiles , tells , besides the breakings in of the sea in several places , and many fires that happened , of the earth-quakes in particular , which he reckons as symptoms of iulian's persecution . and to this i may add , socr. l. 3. c. 10 , who in the reign of valens , that notorious christian persecutor , saith , at the same time there was an earth-quake in bithynia , which turned the city of nice ( that same in which the general council was held under constantine ) and a little after there was another . but although these so happened , the minds of valens , and of eudoxius , the bishop of the arrians , were not at all stirred up unto piety , and a right opinion of religion . for nevertheless they ●●●sed not , made no end of perscuting those who in their creed dissented from them . those earth-quakes seemed to be certain indications of tumult in the church . all which put together , could not but make me reflect upon the late earth-quakes , great by how much more unusual here in england , thorow so many counties two years since , at the same time when the clergy , some of them , were so busie in their cabals , to promote this ( i would give it a modester name then ) persecution , which is now no foot against the dissenters ; at so unseasonable a time , and upon no occasion administred by them , that those who comprehend the reasons , yet cannot but wonder at the wisdom of it . yet i am not neither one of the most credulous nickers or appliers of natural events to human transactions : but neither am i so secure as the learned dr. spencer , nor can walk along the world without having some eye to the conjunctures of god's admirable providence . neither was marcus aurelius ( that i may return to my matter ) negligent as to the particular . but he , observing , as antoninus had the earth-quakes , that in an expedition against the germans and sarmatians , his army being in despair almost for want of water , the melitine ( afterward from the event called the thundring ) legion , which consisted of christians , kneel'd down in the very heat of their thirst and fight , praying for rain ; which posture the enemies wondring at , immediately there brake out such a thundring and lightning , as together with the christian valour , routed the adverse army , but so much rain fell therewith , as refreshed aurelius his forces , that were at the last gasp for thirst : he th●nce forward commanded by his letters , that upon pain of death none should inform against the christians , as tertullian in his apology for the christians witnesses . but who would have beli●ved that even commodus , so great a tyrant otherwise , should have been so favourable as to make a law , that the informers against christians should be punished with death ? yet he did , and the informer against apollonius was by it executed . much less could a man have thought that , that prodigy of cruelty maximine , and who ●xercised it so severely upon the christians , should , as he did , being struck with god's hand , publish when it was too late edict after edict , in great favour of the christians . but above all , nothing could have been less expected than that , after those heathen emperors , the first christian constantine should have been seduced by the bishops , to be after them , the first occasion of persecution , so contrary to his own excellent inclination : 't was then that he spake his own mind , when he said , eus. de vitâ const. 69. you ought to retain within the bounds of your private thoughts those things , which you cunningly and subtly seek out concerning most frivolous questions . and then much plainer , c. 67. where he saith so wisely . you are not ignorant that the philosophers all of them do agree in the profession of the same discipline , but do oftentimes differ in some part of the opinions that they dogmatize in : but yet , although they do dissent about the discipline that each several sect observeth , they nevertheless reconcile themselves again for the sake of that common profession to which they have concurred . but against compulsion in religious matters so much every where , that it is needless to insert one passage . and he being of this disposition , and universally famous for his care and countenance of the christian religion . eusebius saith these words , while the people of god did glory and heighten it self in the doing of good things , and all fear from without was taken away , and the church was fortifi●d as i may say , on all sides by a peaceable and illusti●us tranquility , then envy lying in wait against our prosperity , craftily crept in , and began first to dance in the midst of the company of bishops ; so goes on , telling the history of alexander and a●rius . i have been before large ●nough in that relation , wherein it appeared that , contrary to that great emperours pious intention , whereas envy began to dance among the bishops first , the good constantine brought them the fiddles . but it appear'd likewise how soon he was weary of the ball , and toward his latter end , as princes often do upon too late experience , would have redressed all , and returned to his natural temper . of the other christian emperours i likewise discoursed , omitting , that i might insert it in this place , how the great heathen philosopher themistius , in his consolar oration , celebrated iovianus for having given that toleration in christian religion , and thereby defeated the flatt●ring bishops , which sort of men , saith he wittily , do not worship g●d , but the imperial purple . it was the same themistius , that only out of an upright natural apprehension of things , made that excellent oration afterward to valens , which is in print , exhorting him to cease persecution ; wherein he chances upon , and improves the same notion with constantines , and tells him , that he should not wonder at the dissents in christian religion , which were very small if compared with the multitude and crowd of opinions among the gentile philosophers ; for there were at least three hundred differences , and a very great dissention among them there was about their resolutions , unto which each several sect was as it were , necessarily bound up and obliged : and that god seemed to intend more to illustrate his own glory by that diverse and unequal variety of opinions , to the end every each one might therefore so much the more reverence his divine majesty , because it is not p●ssible for any one accurately to know him . and this had a good effect upon valens , for the mitigating in some measure his severities against his fellow christians . so that after having cast about in this summary again , ( whereby it plainly appears , that according to natural right , and the apprehension of all sober heathen governours , christianity as a religion , was wholly exempt from the magistrates jurisdiction or laws , farther than any particular person among them immorally transgressed , as others , the common rules of human society ) i cannot but return to the question with which i begun . what was the matter ? how came it about that christianity , which approved it self under all persecutions to the heathen emperours , and merited their favour so far , till at last it regularly succeeded to the monarchy , should under those of their own profession , be more distressed ? but the answer is now much shorter and certainer , and i will adventure boldly to say , the true and single cause then was the bishops . and they were the cause against reason . for what power had the emperours by growing christians , more than those had before them ? none . what obligation were christian subjects under to the magistrate more than before ? none . but the magistrates christian authority was what the apostle describ'd it while heathen , not to be a terror to good works , but to evil . what new power had the bishops acquired , whereby they turned every pontificate into a caiaphat ? none neither , 2 cor. 10. 8. had they been apostles , the lord had but given them authority for edification , not for destruction . they , of all other , ought to have preached to the magistrate the terrible denunciations in scripture against usurping upon , and persecuting of christians . they , of all others , ought to have laid before them the horrible examples of god's ordinary justice against those that exercised persecution . but , provided they could be the swearers of the prince , to do all due allegiance to the church , and to preserve the rights and liberties of the church , however they came by them , they would give them as much scope as he pleased , in matter of christianity , and would be the first to solicite him to break the laws of christ , and ply him with hot places of scripture , in order to all manner of oppression and persecution in civils and spirituals . so that the whole business how this unchristian tyranny came and could entitle it self among christians , against the christian priviledges , was only the case in zech. 13. 6. 7. and one shall say unto him , what are these wounds in thy hands ? then he shall answer , those with which i was wounded in the house of my friends . because they were all christians , they thought forsooth they might make the bolder with them , make bolder with christ , and wound him again in the hands and feet of his members . because they were friends , they might use them more coarsly , and abuse them against all common civility , in their own house , which is a protection to strangers . and all this to the end that a bishop might sit with the prince in iunto , to consult wisely how to preserve him from those people that never meant him any harm , and to secure him from the sedition and rebellion of men that seek , nor think any thing more , but to follow their own religious christian worship . it was indeed as ridiculous a thing to the pagans to see that work , as it was afterwards in england to strangers , where papists and protestants went both to wrack at the same instant , in the same market ; and when erasmns said wittily , quid agitur in angli● ? consulitur , he might have added , though not so elegantly , comburitur● de religione . because they knew that christian worship was free by christ's institution ; they procured the magistrate to make laws in it concerning things necessary : as the heathen persecutor iulian introduced some bordering pagan ceremonies , and arguing with themselves in the same manner , as he did , soz. l. 5. c. 16. that if christians should obey those laws , they should be able to bring them about to something further , which they had designed . but if they would not then they might proceed against them without any hope of pardon , as breakers of the laws of the empire , and represents them as turbulent and dangerous to the government . indeed , whatsoever the animadverter saith of the act of scditious conventicles here in england as if it were anvill'd after another of the roman senate , the christians of those ages had all the finest tools of persecution out of iulian's shop , and studied him then as cu●iously as some do now machiavel . these bishops it was , who , because the rule of christ was incomparible with the power that they assumed , and the vices they practised , had no way to render themselves necessary or tolerable to princes , but by making true piety difficult , by innovating laws to revenge themselves upon it , and by turning make-bates between prince and people , instilling dangers of which themselves were the authors . hence it is , that having awakened this jealousie once in the magistrate , against religion , they made both the secular and the ecclesiastical government so uneasie to him , that most princes began to look upon their subjects as their enemies , and to imagine a reason of state different from the interest of their people ; and therefore to weaken themselves by seeking unnecessary and grievous supports to their authority . whereas if men could have refrain'd this cunning , and from thence forcible governing of christianity , leaving it to its own simplicity and due liberty , but causing them in all other things to keep the kings and christs peace among themselves , and towards others , all the ill that could have come of it , would have been , that such kind of bishops should have prov'd less implemental ; but the good that must have thence risen to the christian magistrate and the church , then and ever after , would have been inexpressible . but this discourse having run in a manner wholly upon the imposition of cre●ds , may seem not to concern ( and i desire that it may not reflect upon ) our clergy , not the co●troversies which have so unhappily vex'd our church , ever since the reign of edward the sixth , unto this day . only , if there might be somthing pick'd out of it towards the compromising of those differences ( which i have not from any performance of mine , the vanity to imagine ) it may have use as an argument , a majori ad minus , their disputes having risen only from that of creeds , ours from the imposition only of ceremonies , which are of much inferior consideration . faith being necessary , but ceremonies dispensable . unless our church should lay the same weight upon them , as one did . this is the time of her settlement , that there is a church at the end of every mile , that the sovereign powers spread their wings to cover and protect her , that kings and queens are her nursing fathers and nursing mothers , that she hath stately cathedrals ; there be so many arguments now to make ceremonies necessary , which may all be answered with one q●estion that they use to ask children : where are you proud ? but i should rather hope from the wisdom and christianity of the present guides of our church , that they will after an age and more , after so long a time almost as those primitive bishops i have spoke of , yet suffered the novatian bishops in every diocess ) have mercy on the nation that hath been upon so slender a matter as the ceremonies and li●urgy so long ▪ so miserably harass●d . that they will have mercy upon the king , whom they know against his natural inclination , his royal intention , his many declarations , they have induced to more severitics than all the reigns since the conquest will contain , if summ'd up together ; who may , as constantive among his private devotions put up one collect to the bishops . euseb. de vita const. 7. 70. date igitur mihi dies tranquillos & noctes curarum experes . and it runs thus almost altogether verbatim in that historian . grant , most merciful bishop and priest th●t i may have calm days , and nights free from care and molestation , that i may live a peaceable life in all godliness and holiness for the future by your good agreement ; which unless you vouchsafe me , i shall most away my reign in perpetual sadness and vexation . for as long as the people of god stands divided by so unjust and pernicious a contention , how can it be that i can have any ease in my own spirit . open therefore by your good agreement the way to me , that i may continue my expedition towards the east ; and grant that i may see both you and all the rest of my people , having laid aside your animosities , rejoycing together , that we may all with one voice give land and glory , for the common and good agreement and liberty , to god almighty for ever , amen . but if neither the people nor his majesty enter into their consideration . i hope it is no unreasonable request that they will be merciful unto themselves , and have some reverence at least for the naked truth of history , which either in their own times will meet with them , or in the next age overtake them : that they , who are some of them so old , that as confessors , they were the scars of the former troubles , others of them so young , that they are free from all the motives of revenge and hatred , should yet joyn in reviving the former persecutions upon the same pretences ; yea , even themselves in a turbulent , military , and uncanonical manner execute laws of their own procuring , and depute their inferior clergy to be the informers . i should rather hope to see not only that controversie so scandalous abolished , but that also upon so good an occasion as the author of the naked truth hath administred them , they will inspect their clergy , and cause many things to be corrected , which are far more ruinous in the consequence than the dispensing with a surplice . i shall mention some too confusedly , as they occur to my pen , at present , reserving much more for better leisure . methinks it might be of great edification , that those of them , who have ample possessions , should be in a good sense , multas inter opes inopes . that they would inspect the canons of the ancient councils , where are many excellent ones for the regulation of the clergy . i saw one , looking but among those of the same council of nice , against any bishops removing from a l●ss bishoprick to a greater , nor that any of the inferior clergy should leave a less living for a fatter . that is me-thinks the most natural use of general , or any councils to make canons , as it were by-laws for the ordering of their own society ; but they ought not to take out , much less forge any patent to invade and prejudice the community . it were good that the greater church-men relyed more upon themselves , and their own direction , not building too much upon stripling chaplains ; that men may not suppose the master ( as one that has a good horse , or a fleet hound ) attributes to himself the vertues of his creature . that they inspect the morals of the clergy ; the moral hereticks do the church more harm than all the non●conformists can do , or can wish it . that before they admit men to subscribe the thirty-nine articles for a benefice , they try whether they know the meaning . that they would much recommend to them the reading of the bible . 't is a very good book , and if a man read it carefully , will make him much wiser . that they would advise them to keep the sabbath : if there were no morality in the day , yet there is a great deal of prudence in the observing it . that they would instruct those that came for holy order and livings , that it is a terrible vocation they enter upon ; but that has indeed the greatest reward . that to gain a soul is beyond all the acquists of trassick , and to convert an atheist , more glorious than all the conquests of the souldier . that , betaking themselves to this spiritual warfare , they ought to disintangle from the world. that they do not ride for a benefice , as if it were for a fortune , or a mistress ; but there is more in it . that they take the ministry up not as a trade ; and because they have heard of whittington , in expectation that the bells may so chime , that they may come in their turns to be lord mayors of lambeth . that they make them understand as well as they can , what is the grace of god. that they do not come into the pupit too full of fustian or logick ; a good life is a clergy-mans best syllogism , and the quaintest oratory ; and till they out-live 'm , they will never get the better of the fanaticks , nor be able to preach with demonstration of spirit , or with any effect or authority . that they be lowly minded , and no railers . and particularly , that the arch-deacon of canterbury being in ill humor upon account of his ecclesiastical policy , may not continue to revenge himself upon the innocent walloons there , by ruining their church which subsists upon the ecclesiastical power of his majesty , and so many of his royal predecessors . but these things require a greater time , and to enumerate all that is amiss , might perhaps be as endless as to number the people ; nor are they within the ordinary sphere of my capacity . but to the judicious and serious reader , to whom i wish any thing i have said , may have given no unwelcome entertainment ; i shall only so far justifie my self , that i thought it no less concerned me to vindicate the laity from the impositions that the few would force upon them , than others to defend those impositions on behalf of the clergy . but the reverend mr. hooker in his ecclesiastical polity , says the time will come when three words , uttered with charity and meekness , shall receive a far more blessed reward , than three thousand volumes written with disdainful sharpness of wit. and i shall conclude . i trust in the almighty , that with us , contentions are now at the highest that , and that the day will come ( for what cause is there of dispair ) when the passions of former enmity being allaid , men shall with ten times redoubled tokens of unfainedly reconciled love , shew themselves each to other the same which joseph , and the brethren of joseph were at the time of their enterview in egypt and upon this condition , let my book also ( yea , my self if it were needful ) be burnt by the hand of those enemies to the peace and tranquility of the religion of england . finis . new-englands salamander, discovered by an irreligious and scornefull pamphlet, called new-englands jonas cast up at london, &c. owned by major iohn childe, but not probable to be written by him. or, a satisfactory answer to many aspersions cast upon new-england therein. wherein our government there is shewed to bee legall and not arbitrary, being as neere the law of england as our condition will permit. together with a briefe reply to what is written in answer to certaine passages in a late booke called hypocrisie unmasked. / by edw. winslow. winslow, edward, 1595-1655. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a96687 of text r201531 in the english short title catalog (thomason e390_8). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 74 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 17 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a96687 wing w3038 thomason e390_8 estc r201531 99862030 99862030 114179 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a96687) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 114179) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 62:e390[8]) new-englands salamander, discovered by an irreligious and scornefull pamphlet, called new-englands jonas cast up at london, &c. owned by major iohn childe, but not probable to be written by him. or, a satisfactory answer to many aspersions cast upon new-england therein. wherein our government there is shewed to bee legall and not arbitrary, being as neere the law of england as our condition will permit. together with a briefe reply to what is written in answer to certaine passages in a late booke called hypocrisie unmasked. / by edw. winslow. winslow, edward, 1595-1655. [2], 29, [1] p. printed by ric. cotes, for john bellamy, and are to bee sold at his shop at the signe of the three golden lions in cornehill neare the royall exchange, london, : 1647. a reply to: child, major john. new-englands jonas cast up at london (wing c3851). annotation on thomason copy: "may 29". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng child, john, -major. -new-englands jonas cast up at london -early works to 1800. church polity -early works to 1800. massachusetts -church history -early works to 1800. a96687 r201531 (thomason e390_8). civilwar no new-englands salamander, discovered by an irreligious and scornefull pamphlet, called new-englands jonas cast up at london, &c. owned by maj winslow, edward 1647 13401 104 0 0 0 0 0 78 d the rate of 78 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the d category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-03 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-03 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-04 john latta sampled and proofread 2007-04 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion new-englands salamander , discovered by an irreligious and scornefull pamphlet , called new englands jonas cast up at london , &c. owned by major iohn childe , but not probable to be written by him . or , a satisfactory answer to many aspersions cast upon new-england therein . wherein our government there is shewed to bee legall and not arbitrary , being as neere the law of england as our condition will permit . together with a briefe reply to what is written in answer to certaine passages in a late booke called hypocrisie unmasked . by edw. winslow . london , printed by ric. cotes , for john bellamy , and are to bee sold at his shop at the signe of the three golden lions in cornehill neare the royall exchange , 1647. to major john childe in answer to his preface . sir , i am sorry for your owne sake , being a gentleman reported to bee peaceable in your conversation , that you should bee thus engaged in other mens quarrells ; especially to father other mens falshoods and irreligious jeeres and scoffes , whose spirits if you were so well acquainted with as my selfe and some others that came lately from new-england , as well as thousands in the countrey , you would bee more wary then to engage as you doe . but first for answer to your preface , and then i conceive i have answered every word of yours in your seeming treatise : and yet i would not bee mistaken that any should thinke i judge you unable to write such a peece , for there is no solidity in it : but i am so well acquainted with this language and such proceedings before ever i saw your face , as no man is or ever was better acquainted with the phrase or writings of another , then i am with your chief animator to this undertaking , whom i call new-englands salamander , because of his constant and many yeeres exercise , and delight in opposition to whatsoever hath been judged most wholesome and safe for the weale-publick of the country ( from whence hee last came ) either in politicks or ecclesiasticks , being ever willing to enjoy the common benefits of peace by government ( which maintaines every man in his proper right ) but never willing to beare any part of the charge in supporting the same , as appeared by his constant cavilling thereat when ever any rates came upon the country though never so easie and just . but to come to the occasion of your printing the following relation , which you say are the sufferings that not onely my brother robert child doctor of physick , with some gentlemen and others have suffered in their persons and estates by fines and imprisonment in new-england , and false reports and feigned miracles bere , &c. for answer , that your brother was in prison , and for what i certified you at my first comming over ; though to you grievous in regard of naturall affection , ( which i honour where i finde in any ; ) then also being occasioned thereunto i freely imparted to you the countries colorable grounds of suspecting his agency for the great incendiaries of europe , besides the matter of fact for which hee was committed , yea that the very yeare hee came over , a gentleman in the country ( mr. peters by name ) was advised by letters from a forraign part that the jesuits had an agent that sommer in new-england . and that the countrey comparing his practise with the intelligence were more jealous of him then any ; ( though to mee he was a meere stranger ) and therefore i marvell that major childe should give me occasion , and force mee to publish these things which i neither affect nor intended : but i shall forbeare in that kind because i would not provoke . as for their estates being weakned by fines , that is yet to prove : for though they were fined , yet the fines were not levied , nay so gentle was the censure of the court , that upon the publike acknowledgement of the offence the fine was to bee remitted to all or any one of them so doing . and for false reports and feigned miracles fomented here to colour their unjust proceedings , as you terme it ; i answer , your book is the first reporter of many things i here meet with , especially as you lay them downe , as shall appeare more particularly . in the next place you say , they give out that my brother and others desire a toleration of all religions : this is the first time that ever i heard it so reported of them . secondly , whereas you say they are accused to bee against all government both in church and common weak : this i know to bee false : for i heard them demand in court the presbyterian government , and it was granted them . besides , before this demand in court , at a private conference with an eminent person ( who well hoped to have satisfied them ) hee demanded of the petitioners what church government it was they would have ? one of them answered , he desired that particular government which mr. john goodwin in colemanstreet was exercised in . another of them said , hee knew not what that was : but hee for his part desired the presbyterian government . a third of them said hee desired the episcopall government if it might bee , if not , the presbyterian : and a fourth told mee himselfe that hee disclaimed any thing in the petition that was against the government of the churches in new-england , &c. resting and liking what was there done in that kind . now the former three passages ( and not without the latter ) were all told mee by grave persons in new-england , such as i beleeve . and therefore if any so accuse them i must needs cleare them : but withall testifie i never met with this accusation against them before i read it in your booke . thirdly , for their petitioning the parliament ; take notice wee hold that no subject ought to bee restrained this libertie , and therefore count it no offence nor ever did , and therefore they were not committed for that . a fourth false report you terme , is , their petition brought from thence to bee presented to the parliament ( which they had named jones ) in a ship called the supply ; being in a storme neere silly , out of horrour of conscience the petition was torne and throwne over board : and that then the storme immediatly ceased , and they ●ir●●●lously saved . to this i answer , i was not in the ship ( i praise god ) and therefore what i say in it must bee from others whom i judge truely godly , and of the most grave and solid persons amongst them ; and sir , let mee tell you , and the world in answer to you , i have heard the passage from divers , but never as you print it ; and doe thinke verily your informers belie themselves that they may have somewhat to cavill at . but though i had not thought to have entred upon a large answer to any particular : yet it being one of the heads of your treatise , i shall bee larger in answering that then another thing ; partly to vindicate mr. c●●on who is much abused in your booke , and partly from their owne pen to shew the prophane carriage of the partie in the ship by their fearefull provoking the almightie to follow them with his terrours throughout the voyage from new-england to silley , where they had a great deliverance , and yet neverthelesse to shew how they goe on still to abuse gods mercy , patience and long suffering by this prophane title and story colored by your selfe . and thus much for answer to your preface . as for the foure heads of your book and the postscript , i shall answer them as they arise . an answer to the imperfect relation of the hingam case . were i not so well acquainted with our new-england-salamanders wayes , and what a puther hee made in the countrey about this businesse , i should stand amazed at the malice of men to see this brought against the government . to answer either this case or the next at length would ask so much paines , and bee so great a bulke , as their booke being but a two penny jeering gigge , penned rather to please the fancy of common understandings , then to satisfie any solid judgements ; would goe much further then ever the answer would bee like to follow , that so he might bemire us with a witnesse . and if he can cause any reproach to lie upon us ( whether just or unjust , that matters not ) then hath hee hit the marke hee shoots at . and therefore to avoyd the many particulars would fall in a distinct answer by giving an account of the whole businesse , i shall desire the reader to accept this generall . the inhabitants of hingam were knowne to bee a peaceable and industrious people , and so continued for many yeers ; the lord supporting them in the midst of many straights in their first beginnings , crowning their indeavours with his blessing , and raising them up to a comfortable and prosperous outward condition of life , and such is their state through gods mercy and goodnesse this day , living very plentifully . but satan envying their happinesse ( the lord permitting as it seemes ) on a suddaine cast a bone of division amongst them , which tooke mightily , to the great griefe and admiration of their neighbours on every side ; which controversie indeed arose about the choyce of their captaine as is related . but our salamander living too neere them , and being too well acquainted with them , blew up this to such an height by his continuall counsell and advise which the major part of the towne followed to their owne smart , and the great griefe and trouble of church and common-weale , as they not onely filled their court with complaints against each other , and wearied out the chiefe magistrates in place , but complained openly against one of them , viz. the deputie governour , who upon hearing the case thought good to bind some of them over to the court ; some submitted and gave bond , others refused , and were sent to prison , &c. this gentleman , as on all other occasions so in this particular much honored himselfe , by leaving his place upon the bench and going to the bar , and would not bee perswaded to cover his head or take his place till the case was heard and ended , which continued many dayes , partly by reason of the great liberty the court gave the plaintiffes in regard it reflected upon one of themselves , ( and i thinke the first case that ever befell in that kind ; ) but more especially because our salamander was got to boston , where though hee would not openly shew himselfe , yet kept close in a private roome where they had recourse unto him many dayes , yea many times a day for advice , and followed it to the utmost , to the great charge of the countrey ( which came to much more , as i have heard , then the hundred pounds fine which was laid upon them ) in providing the diet of their court . but the court finding for the defendant after much trouble in many dayes agitation fined the plaintiffes in an hundred pound , and laid it upon sundry of them in particular amercements according to their severall demeanours in the action , and left the deputie governour to take his course with them , who onely rested in the vindication of his name ; which the countrey so farre cleared , as not long after , their election day falling by course , they chose him their governour , a place not strange to him , in which wee left him , having more often borne it then all others in that government . and for the differences which befell them in their church ; whether the court or the churches i know not , but the one entreated divers of the elders to goe unto them , who through gods mercy and blessing upon their endeavours prevented a division amongst them , though they could not at first settle things so well as they desired . and thus much for answer to the hi●gam case which may bee sufficient to satisfie any judicious reader : and foe those whose hearts are fraught with malice , the lord onely can convict such , to whom i leave them . an answer to the second head , namely the petition of doctor robert childe , &c. this remonstance and petition of theirs which hath made so great a sound in other places as well as here , notwithstanding their golden pretences of respect and reformation , was no sooner delivered , but before they could possibly exspect an answer from the court ( notwithstanding the largenesse of it ) copies were dispersed into the hands of some knowne ill affected people in the severall governments adjoyning , as plym●th , con●●tac●t , new haven , &c. who gloried not a little in it ; nay the petitioners spared no paines , for before our comming away wee heard from the dutch plantation , virginia and bermudas , that they had them here also , with such expressions in their letters as the present governour of barmudas was bold to affirme to a gentleman from whom i had it , who was then bound for new-england to get passage for england , that hee was confident hee should finde new-england altogether by the eares as well as england ; which hee well knew by a petition and remonstrance which hee had received from thence , &c. now had a peaceable reformation beene the marke they aymed at , they would not have gone about thus to make the government so much despised farre and neare , by casting such contempt upon them as they have endeavoured before ever they knew what acceptation their remonstrance and petition would finde ; which was taken into consideration till the next generall court , where they were answered at large , charged with manifold falsehoods and contempts and fined for the same , after a solemne hearing of the cause . but however i shall forbeare to give a particular answer in print to the said remonstrance , not because i cannot , for i have the whole case , the courts defence against it , &c. which would bee larger then both these bookes , being as i said before too large in regard of the price of the buyer ; and therefore shall give such a generall answer as may satisfie the indifferent and equall minded reader , and thereby deceive also our salamanders expectation to draw out from mee the whole which befell since his comming away , that so hee might finde more fewell to baske himselfe in , and satiate his contention humors to the full . but for answer , good reader , take notice as well of the quality of these petitioners as of their demeanour before expressed , and then thou shalt finde divers of them to bee inconsiderable in regard of proprietie with us ; who might bee justly suspected to draw in the rest who are much bewailed by many of us : and in so doing it 's possible thou mayst as well bee jealous of their good intents as those in the countrey : for three of them , namely doctor childe , john smith and john dand , they are persons that have no proprietie or knowne proper estate in the government where they are so busie to disturbe and distract : and for mr. thomas fowle ( who whether drawne in or no i know not ) hee joyned with them in this petition and remonstrance at such a time when hee was resolved to leave the countrey , and since hath done , and sent for his wife and family , as i heare . as for doctor childe hee is a gentleman that hath travelled other parts before h●e came to us , namely italy ; confesseth hee was twice at rome , speaketh sometimes highly as i have heard reported in favour of the jesuites , and however he tooke the degree of doctor in physick at padua , yet doth not at all practise , though hee hath beene twice in the countrey where many times is need enough . at his first comming to new-england he brought letters commendatory , found good acceptation by reason thereof with the best ; fals upon a dilligent survey of the whole countrey , and painefully travells on foot from plantation to plantation ; takes notice of the havens , situation , strength , churches , townes , number of inhabitants , and when he had finished this toylesome taske , returnes againe fo●england , being able to give a better account then any of the countrey in that respect . hee comes a second time , and not onely bestoweth some bookes on the colledge , as sir k●… digby and many others commendably did , but brings second letters commendatory , having put in some stock among some merchants of london , and for the advancement of iron workes in the countrey , which through gods goodnesse are like to become very profitable to them ; but hath no more to doe in the managing of them then any here who have other their agents being expert in the worke . this gentlemans carriage is now changed , and is not onely ready to close with such as are discontented , but to bee a leader of such against the government , affront the authoritie god hath hitherto honored with his blessing , appeale from their justice , and thereby seeke to evade any censure ; and if he might be thus suffered , why not others ? and then wee must all give over ; for if we have not the power of government , and cannot administer justice seasonably on all occasions , well we may come back againe and take some other course , but wee cannot there subsist . a second of these is mr. john smith , who formerly lived about two or three yeeres in boston , but before this remonstrance , himselfe and wife were removed to road iland , but never had any personall inheritance in the countrey , and was now at the massachusets but as a stranger . a third is one mr. john dand , who hath lived in boston as a so●ourner since these warres in another mans house at board hire , whose businesse and occasions there are unknowne unto us ; and whose carriage till this present was seemingly faire , but all on a suddaine though no further interessed in the countrey he thus engageth himselfe against the authority of the place . thus taking mr. fowl● with them who was upon departure from the countrey as afore , you may see the persons to bee such as have no considerable interest amongst us , at least foure in seaven : and all this being true i have related , i suppose by this time the reader may conceive , or at least suspect their faire pretences and great glisterings are not pure gold . but besides all this take notice good reader , that our salamander wintred many moneths amongst them , very gracious and frequent in their companies , and no doubt a great helpe in furthering their designe in their remonstrance , which brake forth not long after his returne home the spring following : and indeed his company had beene enough alone to have produced such an effect ; and therefore for my part so well knowing the man i cannot wonder at it as many doe , assuring my selfe bee better knowes how to ripen such fruit then all the costermongers in london . and now let mee goe to the title of the booke which hath its relation to the petition aforesaid ; and after their gigge called new-englands jones cast up at london , they would make the world beleeve that divers honest and godly persons are imprisoned in new-england for petitioning for government in the common-weale , according to the lawes of england , and either for desiring admittance of themselves and children to the sacraments in our churches , or else for leave to have ministers and church government according to the best reformation of england and scotland . now these charges are most notorious false , and so knowne , for i came not alone from new-england , but accompanied with an hundred persons at least , which i beleeve can testifie in the case . and therefore major childe take notice how you are abused by them to father such devilish and slanderous reports as these . for the first , there were none committed for petitioning , but for their remonstrance and the many false charges and seditious insinuations tending to faction and insurrections sleighting the government , &c. and lest any should thinke ( as i heare some doe ) that the court of the massachusets hath dealt rigorously with them , and that the petition is very faire and orderly , &c. let the reader know that such thoughts must either proceed from great weaknesse in not understanding or discerning the many grosse charges in it , or else from partialitie or evill affection to the government which they neither love nor know ; for in their remonstrance they not onely defame the government , but controule the wisedome of the state of england in the frame of their charter which is under the broad seale of the kingdome by charging the government to bee an ill compacted vessell . secondly , they charge all the afflictions that have befallen the personall inhabitants either by sicknesses on the land , or losses at sea upon the evill of the government . thirdly , they goe about to perswade the people , that all the priviledges granted and confirmed under the broad seale to the governour and company of the massachusets belong to all freeborne english men ; which contrariwise belong onely to the said governour and company , and such as they shall thinke meet to receive . fourthly , they closely insinuate into the mindes of the people ( as the jealousies of others ) that these now in authoritie doe intend to exercise unwarranted dominion , and an arbitrary government abominable to parliament , &c. foretelling them of intolerable bondage , which is enough alone to stirre up a people to commotion . fiftly , how doe they goe about to weaken the authoritie of the lawes of the place , the peoples reverence of and obedience to them in this their remonstrance , by perswading the people that partly through want of the body of the english lawes , and partly that through the insufficiency and ill frame of those they have , they can expect no sure injoyment of their lives and liberties under them : when as the state well knew the english body of lawes was too heavy for us , and therefore as libertie is granted in our patents to make our owne lawes , so it is with this proviso , that they bee as neere the lawes of england as may bee , which wee understand as neer as our condition will permit , which i shall speake more of elsewhere . sixtly , they falsly charge the government with denying libertie of votes where they allow them , as in choyce of military officers , which is common to the non-freemen with such as are free . seventhly , their speeches in their remonstrance are charged to tend to sedition by insinuating into the peoples minds , that there are many thousands secretly discontented at the government , &c. whereby those that are so may bee emboldned to discover themselves , and know to whom to repaire ; and what greater meanes can bee used to unsetle a setled people , and to kindle a flame in a peaceable common-weale , if the lord prevent not , and authoritie should suffer such things to passe uncensured ? eighthly , they slander the discipline of the churches in the countrey , and the civill government also , by inferring that the frame and dispensations thereof are such , as godly , sober , peaceable men cannot there live like christians ; which they seeme to conclude from hence , that they desire libertie to remove from thence where they may live like christians : when as indeed our armes are open to receive such both into church and common-weal , blessing god for their societie . ninthly , they doe in effect charge the government with tyranny in impressing their persons to the warres , committing them to prison , fining , rating them , &c. and all unjustly and illegally , whereas no warre is undertaken , nor any presse goes forth , but according to law established ; but the thing they would have is that any english man may volens nolens , take his habitation in any government , bee as free as the best , &c. thus breaking all order , charters , and peace of societies : for if he be english borne ( by their principles ) no government may refuse him be he never so pestilent , whether jesuite or worse . tenthly , they ●ay a false charge upon the churches in affirming , t●●● christian vigilancy is no way exercised towards such ●● are not in church fellowship : whereas they cannot but know the contrary . for however wee have nothing to doe to bring them to the church , and cannot cast out those that were never within , yet privately wee performe the dutie of christians towards them , either in holding private communion with such as are godly , or reproving and exhorting the rest also as occasion and opportunity offereth . eleventhly , that this dirt might stick fast , and men might more easily receive these injurious charges against the government ; in the conclusion they proclaime , that our brethren in england ( meaning the independents ) dee flee from us at from a pest . when as for my part i beleeve that if our brethren were with us they would close with our practise , or at least wee should bee dealt more brotherly withall , and then wee should not only hearken to what counsel should be of god , from them or any other in gods way but bee willing to reforme any thing that is amisse either in church or common-weale . twelfthly , that it may appeare these injurious charges are their owne apprehensions , and pretenses rather then jealousies of any others , they have publiquely declared their disaffection to the government , in that being called to the court to render account of their mis-apprehensions , and evill expressions in the premises , they refused to answer : but by appealing from the government they disclaimed the jurisdiction thereof , ( what in them lay ) before they knew whether the court would give any sentence against them or not : when as indeed their charter injoyneth nor requireth any appeale , but have the power of absolute government by vertue thereof : but these seven petitioners , whereof three are meere strangers and have no proprietie within the government ( and a fourth then to depart and now departed from it ) will not beare it as the rest . and for my part if these foure that were inhabitants were not drawne in by the three strangers to make up the number of seven to trouble the commonweale , i should wonder ( well knowing their abilities otherwayes , especially of some of them ) there being no want of fit persons if many thousands discontented as they say about them upon such a straight ; but i looke upon this speech of theirs as tending rather to incite discontented persons to repaire unto them , then having any realitie in it . and for the matter of appeale from new-england hither , which is three thousand miles distant , it will bee found to bee destructive to them that there live : for no countrey can subsist without government , or repaire so farre to it ; nor will any wise man accept a place in government where hee shall bee exposed to goe so farre to give account of his actions , though they bee never so just : but the best is , the parliament is knowne ( and it is their duty ) to seeke the good of the subjects by all due meanes : and i doubt not ( if ever tendred to them ) but they will soone discover the mischiefe intended by our adversaries , or at least like to ensue ( if they prevaile ) by overthrowing those hopefull beginnings of new-england in straightning our priviledges at such a time , when englands are restored ; but wee hope to share with them rather by enlargement , being wee went out in those evill times when the bishops were so potent being persecuted by them , and in that wee suffered since with the parliament in adhering to them to the losse of ships , and goods , &c. but i shall rest on god in what is said , hoping the reader will bee satisfied in point of our innocency in regard of the evills charged on us ; and therefore to proceed . in the next place whereas they complaine of imprisonment , one of them being to goe to sea just when things were to bee heard , was required to give bond to stand to the award of the court , leaving six partners behind him to pleade his cause ; also mr. smith being a dweller in another government and not there , being present at that same time was required to doe the like ; which order they withstood for an houre or thereabouts , and were that time under the marshalls custody , but no sooner advised they with our salamander their counsell , but hee advised them to give security , which they accordingly did , and so were dismissed ; now this i suppose was because hee was to goe to sea with them immediatly , which they accordingly did . secondly , take notice that before doctor childe , &c. were committed , the businesse of the remonstrance was ended , and they censured by fine , every one according to his particular offence , and carriage in managing the whole , and it is not our manner to punish twice for one offence . thirdly , take notice that the government they charge was proved in open court to bee according to the law of england , and therefore not committed for petitioning for that they had . fourthly , let the reader know that the presbyterian government was as freely tendered them by the governour in the open court without any contradiction of any the assistants or other , ●s ever i heard any thing in my life , though it appeareth that our salamander is not a little troubled at it , as i shall have occasion to touch in my answer to the postscript , which i verily beleeve hee penned every word . lastly , let the reader take notice that doctor robert childe , mr. john smith , and mr. john dand , were committed for certaine papers upon close search of dands closet , there found the night before the ship came away , which were far more factious & seditious then the former . doctor childe being committed because one of the coppies was under his knowne hand , another coppy under mr. dands hand , and both in his custody ; mr. smith in that hee not onely offered to rescue the papers from the officers that were sent to make search : but when hee saw that hee could not rescue them , brake out into high speeches against the government : and amongst other things said , hee hoped ere long to doe as much to the governors closet , and doe as much to him as hee did for them , &c. or to the like purpose . and now major childe , let the world and you take notice together wherefore your brother & those honest & godly persons you pretend to speak of were committed . nor doe i beleeve that any people under the heavens that know what belongs to government and have the power of it , would doe lesse then the magistrates there did . but what the event will bee god onely knowes ; but this i know , they are in the hands of mercifull men , however they have beene abused , or may by our salamander ( whose reports i often meet with ) or by any other whatsoever . and for answer to their relation of the effects this petition produced , much of it is false and answered before , the rest not worthy the answering ; as concerning the elders , their long sermons to provoke the magistrates against them , &c. no wise man will beleeve as they relate . and thus much for answer to the second part of their booke concerning the petition and remonstrance . a briefe answer to the third head of their booke , concerning the capitall lawes of the massachusets &c. here i finde the capitall lawes of the massachusets reprinted , & the oath they administer to their freemen , which i suppose they are sorry they can finde no more fault with : and all these capitalls rehearsed to shew the danger doctor childe is under by vertue of the last , which followeth in these words . if any man shall conspire or attempt any invasion , insurrection or publique rebellion against our common-wealth , or shall indeavour to surprise any towne or townes , fort or forts therein , or shall treacherously and perfidiously attempt the alteration and subversion of our frame of policy or government fundamentally , hee shall bee put to death , numb. 162 sam. 3. and 18. and 20. now if together with this they had manifestd a liberty the court gives to any notwithstanding this law , fairely and freely to shew their grievance at any thing they conceive amisse , and needeth either alteration or repeale , then they had dealt fairly indeed : but because they leave it out , i take it my dutie to put it in . i know our salamander is not without some exception at any thing wee can doe : but because i finde none more then as before , i shall passe to the next head of their booke . an answer to their relation concerning the throwing the petition overboard as a jonas as they terme it . i acknowledge that mr. cotton taught from that text they mention in 2 cant. 15. take us the foxes the little foxes which destroy the vines , &c. and let the reader understand that this text tell in his ordinary course of lecture in going through that book , and not taken on purpose on that particular occasion . the points hee delivered from hence as i remember were these two . the first , was when god had delivered his church from the danger of the beare , and the lyon , then the foxes the little foxes sought by craft & policy to undermine the same . the second was this , that all th●se that goe about by fox-like craft and policy to undermine the state of the churches of jesus christ , they shall all bee taken every one of them . the text as i take it hee shewed belonged to that time of the church when they returned from babylon , and were building the temple ; and proved the first point of doctrine from that of tobias and sanballat that would have built with the jewes ; the second was amplified by the history of haman in the booke of hester : and so brought many other examples , and amongst others the story of the bishops in the dayes of hen. the eighth , edward the sixt , queen elizabeth , and to the beginning of these warres , who under a colour of building and being master builders in the lords house laid heavie burthens upon the saints , corrupted the worship of god and lorded it over his heritage , & when they were come to the top of their pride the lord jesus could endure them no longer , but they were taken even every one of them in the same snare they had set for others . but i forbeare the amplifying of it , and hasten to the application so farre as it concerneth this scornefull story by them penned of their feigned miracle , as they call it . his use of exhortation was twofold . first , to such as lived in the countrey , to take heed how they went about any indirect way or course which might tend to the prejudice of the churches of jesus christ in the same , or the governments of the land , which through gods mercy was not onely in the hands of such as truely feared the lord , but according to his revealed will so far as we can judge . and therefore if any ( though never so secretly or subtilly ) should goe about any such thing , the watchman of israel that slumbreth not nor sleepeth will not take it well at their hands : for he that hath brought his people hither , and preserved them from the rage of persecution , made it a hiding place for them whilst hee was chastising our owne nation amongst other the nations round about it , manifested his gratious presence , so apparently walking amongst his churches , and preserving and prospering our civill state from forraigne plots of the late archbishop and his confederates , and the domestick of the heathen where wee live ; there was no question to bee made but hee would preserve it from the underminings of false brethren , and such as joyned with them : and therefore , saith hee , let such know in the foregoing respect● it is the land of 〈◊〉 , a land that is pretious in the eyes of the lord , they shall not prosper that rise against it , but shall bee taken every one of them in the snares they lay for it . and this , said hee , i speake as a poore prophet of the lord according to the word of his grace in my text , which however in the proper sense of the holy ghost , belonged to that age of the church mentioned in the booke of nehemiah , yet it is written for our example and instruction : for god is the same yesterday , to day , and for ever ; no lesse carefull , no lesse able , and no lesse willing to save and deliver his people by ingaging himselfe in their case ; and who can stand before him ? in the second place , saith he , whereas divers our brethren are to goe for england , and many others to follow after in another vessell , let mee direct a word of exhortation to them also ; i desire the gratious presence of our god may goe with them , and his good angels guard them not onely from the dangers of the seas this winter season , but keepe them from the errours of the times when they shall arrive , and prosper them in their lawfull designes , &c. but if there bee any amongst you my brethren , as 't is reported there are , that have a petition to prefer to the high court of parliament ( which the lord in mercy goe on blessing to blesse as hee hath begun ) that may conduce to the distraction , annoyance and disturbance of the peace of our churches and weakning the government of the land where wee live , let such know , the lord will never suffer them to prosper in their subtill , malicious and desperate undertakings against his people , who are as tender unto him as the apple of his eye . but if there bee any such amongst you that are to goe , i doe exhort and would advise such in the feare of god when the terrors of the almightie shall beset the vessell wherein they are , the heavens shall frowne upon them , the billowes of the sea shall swell above them , and dangers shall threaten them , ( as i perswade my selfe they will ) i would have them then to consider these things : for the time of adversitie is a time for gods people to consider their wayes . i will not give the counsell was taken concerning jonah , to take such a person and cast him into the sea ; god forbid : but i would advise such to come to a resolution in themselves to desist from such enterprises , never further to ingage in them , and to cast such a petition into the sea that may occasion so much trouble and disturbance . but it may be hardnesse of heart & stoutnesse of spirit may cause such a person or persons with stiffe necks to persist , and yet in mercy with respect to some pretious ones amongst you , ( as i perswade my selfe there are many such goe in each vessell ) the lord may deliver the vessell from many apparent troubles and dangers for their sakes : but let such know , the lord hath land judgements in store for such , for they are not now free ( hee being the god of the land as well as of the sea : ) and if you turne to numb. 14. 36 , 37. you shall there see how hee threatned to destroy such as brought a false report upon his land with the plague : and truely god hath still plagues in store for such as bring a false report upon his church and people ; nay said hee , i heare the lord hath a destroying angell with the sword of pestilence in that kingdome , striking here and there , as seemeth good unto him , ( though not vehemently , blessed bee his name ) and who knowes what the lord will doe ? and therefore i advise such in the feare of god , and i speak it as an unworthy prophet of his according to that portion of his word i now speake from , to lay these things to heart , for it is the lord jesus hath said , take us the foxes , the little foxes , &c. or let them bee taken . and beleeve it for a truth , all those that goe about by fox-like craft and subtiltie to undermine the churches of christ jesus , they shall all bee taken , even in the very snare and ginne they set for others . and thus much for what mr. cotton delivered on this thursdayes lecture in beston , novemb. 5. 1646. which i have shewed to many eminent persons now in england who were present at this lecture , and judge it not onely to bee the summe of his exhortation but his very expressions , and are ready to testifie it on all occasions against all opposers , as mr. thomas peters and mr. william golding ministers ; h●rbert p●lb●● esquire , captaine william sayles , captaine leveret , captaine harding , mr. richard sadl●● , &c. and take notice withall good reader , that i never heard the good man deliver any thing with more earnestnesse and strength of affection then these things thus sleighted by our adversaries as thou seest . and for the second part of their story , viz ▪ their passage , and the passages of gods providence befell them in it ; take notice good reader , that however our salamander turned things into a jest as soone as they were delivered , asking whether hee were a great fox or a little one ; yet many others that were ingaged to goe but in the ship , their hearts trembled that they were to goe in such company . and mr. thomas peeters a minister that was driven out of cornewall by sir ralph hopton in these late warres , and fled to new-england for shelter , being called back by his people , and now in london , upon sight of what i have written gave mee leave before many , to adde this ; that upon mr. cottons exhortation , having shipped his goods and bedding to have gone in the ship with them , amongst other arguments this was the maine , that hee feared to goe in their company that had such designes , and therefore tooke passage to goe rather by way of spaine , &c. and to speake the truth , as the ship rode out many fearefull stresses in the harbour after they were ready , before they could goe to saile , the wind being faire but overblowing : so after they came to sea had the terriblest passage that ever i heard on for extremitie of weather , the mariners not able to take an observation of sunne or star in seven hundred leagues sayling or thereabouts . and when they were all wearied out and tired in their spirits , certaine well-disposed christians called to mind the things delivered by mr. cotton before mentioned , and seeing the tempest still to continue , thought meet to acquaint such as were conceived to be meant by mr. cotton , and that had a purpose to persist in such courses , that they thought god called them now to consider of the things delivered by him ; & hereupon a godly & discreet woman after midnight went to the great cabbin and addressed her speech in sobrietie and much modesty to them , whereupon one of the two answered in these words , or to this purpose ; sister i shall bee loath to grieve you or any other of gods people with any thing i shall doe , and immediatly went to his chest or trunke , and tooke out a paper and gave it her , and referred it to the discretion of others to doe withall as they should see good : which the woman not in a distracted passion ( as they reported ) shewed to mr. richard sadler and others , who although they knew it was not the right petition but that they were deluded , yet because they judged it also to bee very bad , having often seene it in new-england , but never liked the same , cut it in peeces as they thought it deserved , and gave the said peeces to a seaman who cast them into the sea . the storme for the present continued that night , say some , others say , some abatement of winde befell presently after , but all conclude it abated the next day ; but that they had divers stormes afterward being then 200. leagues short of the lands end , is most certaine : and in one of these hideous stormes , having no saile abroad , the ship lying adrist with the helme bound up , the master conceiving hee was to the southward of silley layed the ship to the norward the night being very darke . in the last watch of the night one of the quarter masters going to the pumpe discerned rocks ahead within a cables length , and made such an outery as the whole ship was awakened , and nothing but death presented them : there was much hast made to let loose the helme , and to come to saile ; but before it could bee done the ship was engaged amongst the rocks of silley , and nothing could bee discerned under water , but by the breaking of the waves , which was their best direction to cunne the ship : in this laby●inth the ship travelled for a quarter of an hower or more , in which time it was generally observed the ship readily obeyed her helme , ( or rather the great pilate of the seas ) upon the word given , which at other times shee was slow in . at length the ship drove in and came a ground between two ilands , and could not bee got off being ●bbing water ; and it was the speciall providence of god to place her there in much mercy and compassion on his poore afflicted ones , the vessell being full of passengers ; for on both sides and on head were desperate rocks , which were not discovered till the morning light , the ship all this while lying fast upon a bed of sand or owse ; when it was day the dangers which they had escaped in the night to our admiration presented themselves , nor durst the master worke the ship till hee had gotten a pilate from the shore , who undertooke to bring her to an anchor ne●re crowes sound . the deliverance was so strange as the inhabitants of silly were amased at it , some saying it was a miracle , another that god was a good man that should thus deliver us ; indeed all the iland wondred , and the passengers themselves most of all when they saw the breaches at low water so farre off at sea neere which they passed before they knew the danger , and the rocks they sailed by after they found themselves involved as it were between s●pll● and c●rybdis . much more might bee added to account the mercy , but this may suffice to let the world see 't is no such trifle as is pretended in their prophane relation , who had then other thoughts , being passengers also in the ship , and seemed willing to joyn● with the godly party in the ship in testimony of their thankfulnesse , to celebrate a speciall day of thanksgiving unto the lord for so great salvation , where mr. golding preached , being a passenger with them , and teacher to a church of christ in berm●d● . and now good reader what wilt thou judge of such as can turne such deliverances into a scoffe , witnesse their prophane title , new-englands jonas cast up at london ; the naked truth whereof thou hast heard related ; in all which jonas was but once accidentally named , and that by way of direct opposition to any such counsell . the master of the ship never spoke to , no speech between the woman and mr. vassall that i can learne , but betweene mr. fowle and her , shee under no distemper of passion , but modest discreet and sober in her carriage thorow out the whole . in briefe , all that i can meet with that were in the ship , especially the most eminent persons , affirme this relation of theirs to bee false , yea mr. fowle himselfe acknowledged it before captaine sailes late governour of bermudas , captaine leveret , and captaine harding all passengers in the ship , who all concu●●ed in the falshood of the same , and the three captaines not a little offended thereat , and mr. richard sadler and divers others are ready to testifie the same . but put the case they had deluded a poore weake passionate woman by a shadow instead of a substance : mee thinkes if any feare of god had been before their eyes , they might have trembled at so many and so great threatnings of the almightie , who followed them from one land to another over the vast ocean with his terrours , and have shewed greater thankfulnesse for such a deliverance as before recited , then to carry themselves as they doe ; labouring to delude the reader as well as themselves , and to ascribe all to the winter season ▪ as if all our passages were ordinarily such ( as appeareth by their note in the ma●gent , page 12. ) when as that is false also , witnesse some that came with them , who affirme they have bin in winter passages , but never in the like ; ( the master & his company all concurring therein ) being confident also they fared the worse for their company . and thus much ●●●n affirme , and at least an hundred more that came with me , who came away about the middest of december ( five weeks deeper in winter then they ) and yet through gods undeserved favour had a comfortable passage and landfall , which i thought good to adde to the rest that persons may not bee discouraged from the passage , though i must confesse the spring and fall are the best seasons . but let them go on , if nothing will reclaime them ; and i will waite and attend the word of the lord in the mouth of his servant , and observe the dispensation of his providence towards his churches , and the enemies of the same . and thus much for answer to the fourth head of their book published by major child● . an answer to the postscript . in this postscript which containeth more matter then the whole ● booke , i can trace our salamander line by line , and phrase after phrase , in his accustomed manner to del●de many simple ones , and weaken their respect to the government of new-england ; where hee did a great deale more hurt by his personall presence , than hee can doe here by such slanderous invectives as he either pin●●th upon others ( witnesse this silly peece called new-england● j●n●● ) o● any hee shall publish hereafter . to answer every particular at length , would bee too tedious . but because hee pretendeth an answer to some passages in a booke written lately by my selfe , called hypocrisie vnmasked , concerning the independent churches holding communion with the reformed churches ; at the request of many i came to a resolution as to answer the former passages ▪ so to reply to his malicious cavils in this ; who indeed hath not answered any one thing , but rather raised some scruples that may cloud what i did , and cause such as are ignorant to doubt where things are most cleare : but however i am 〈…〉 with in this case not onely by some of the independent 〈…〉 to answer ▪ yet withall am come to a resolution not to write any more in this kinde ; partly because the world are wearied with too m●n● controverfies of this nature : but more especially because our salamander so much delighteth in them as a●… by many year●●●●● experience , being restlesse and 〈…〉 therein , 〈…〉 answer . hee beginneth with the discovery of a 〈…〉 plot against the lawes of england , and the liberties of the english subjects ▪ &c ▪ and then secondly , hee would render mee odious to the world , as being a principall ●ppos●● of the l●●●● of england in new-england . thirdly hee would make our government of new-england to bee arbitrary . and fourthlyly , his malicious cavils and bitter indignation at any thing may tend to union betweene brethren , i meane the presbyterians and independents , but of these in order . and first , for the subtile plot , &c. which is contrived , saith hee , by writing against gorton , a man whom they know is notorious for heresie , that so behinde him they may get a shot at a bigger game , &c. answ . it is well knowne , and our salamander is not ignorant , that however gorton notoriously abused himself and every government of new-england where hee lived ; yet when that country was grown too hot for him , hee came over here and complained against us , to that honourable committee of parliament ; to whose care the well ordering the affaires of forraigne plantations is referred . the right honourable the earle of warwick , being governour in chiefe , and chairman of the same ; who , upon gorton and his companions complaints , sent over to the government of the massac●●sets , whom it most of all concerned to give answer to the same , &c. whereupon they to shew their respect to the parliament , sent mee to render a reason thereof , which i still attend till their more weighty occasions will permit them to heare . but when i came over , i found that gorton had enlarged his complaints by publishing a booke called simplicities defence against seven-headed policy , &c. which being full of manifold slaunders , and abominable falsehoods ; i tooke my selfe bound in duty to answer it , as i did by that treatise he mentioneth , called hypocrisie vnmasked , which was but an answer to gorton as this is to him , being necessitated thereunto in vindication of the country , whose agent i am , though unworthy . and yet our salamander would blinde the ignoram ▪ and make them beleeve wee tooke occasion to write such a thing to make the parliament have a good opinion of us , as it none of all this had preceded . next that hee might still turne our innocent simplicity into policy , hee takes advantage where none is , and layes hold on a request of mine , which i must still prosecute ( maugre his malice ) and i trust in god the parliament will bee sensible of it viz. that the committee would take into consideration how destructive it will bee to the wel-being of our plantations and proceedings there ( which are growing up into a nation ) here to answer the complaints of such malignant spirits as shall there bee c●●●●red by authority , it being three thousand miles distant , so far as will undoe any to come hither for justice , utterly disabling them to prove the equity of their cause , &c. now if hee had set downe this request as it is , i would never have answered word to it , nor need at present to any , but such as are ready to burst with malice , and the more satisfaction i shall give , the worse they will bee . and for the danger of the state of england is in by this plot , he could not more clearely have expressed the unevennesse of his spirit to any indifferent reader , then by such expressions , and therefore need no farther answer thereunto . secondly , whereas hee chargeth mee to be a principall opposer of the lawes of england in new england , &c. hee dealeth with mee here in this particular just as he did there . for our salamander having labored two years together to draw me to his party , and finding hee could no way prevaile , he then casts off all his pretended love , and made it a part of his worke to make mee of all men most odious , that so what ever i did or said might bee the lesse effectuall . as for the law of england i honour it and ever did , and yet know well that it was never intended for new-england , neither by the parliament , nor yet in the letters patents , we have for the exercise of government under the protection of this state : but all that is required of us in the making of our lawes and ordinances , offices and officers , is to goe as neare the lawes of england as may bee : which wee punctually follow so neare as wee can . for our letters patents , being granted to such , and their associates ▪ these associates are the freemen , whereof there are many in every town : now take notice good reader that as every corporation here send their burgesses to the parliament upon summons : so divers times a yeere the governour sending out his warrants , the towns choose their deputies , viz. two of a towne out of these freemen , which meeting together with the governour and his assistants , compose and make or repeale such lawes and ordinances as they conceive our 〈…〉 require : and however wee follow the custome and practise of england so neere as our condition will give way : yet as the 〈…〉 of a growne man would rather oppresse and 〈…〉 if put upon him , then any way comfort or refresh him , being too heavy for him : so have i often said the lawes of england , to take the body of them , are too ●●w●ldy for our weake condition : besides , there were some things supported by them which wee came from thence to avoid ▪ as the hi●rar●●y , the crosse in ●●ptisme , the holy dayes , the booke of common prayer , &c. all which i doubt not but this renowned parliament will utterly abolish as they have done in part to gods glory and their everlasting fame , ( i meane whi●●t time shall bee . ) but i have been so farre from sleighting the law of england as i have brought my owne booke of the statutes of england into our court , that so when wee have wanted a law or ordinance wee might see what the statutes provided in that kind , and found a great readinesse in our generall court to take all helpe and benefit thereby . and never did i otherwise oppose the law of england : nor ever stand against the liberties of the subject , but am ready to sacrifice my life for the same , when ever i shall bee called thereunto . indeed this i have said in answer to his cavils , that if the parliaments of england should impose lawe● upon us having no burgesses in their house of commons , not capable of a summons by reason of the vast distance of the ocean being three thousand miles from london , then wee should lose the libertie and freedome i conceived of english indeed , where every shire and corporation by their knights and burgesses make and consent to their laws , and so oppose whatsoever they conceive may bee hurtfull to them : but this liberty wee are not capable of by reason of distance , and therefore ▪ &c. and thus much for answer to that point , which will satisfie any equall minded man , but is nothing to him . thirdly , he chargeth our government to bee arbitrary . answ . i shewed before after what manner wee made our lawes ; and for the choyce of our officers once every yeere they are either chosen or renewed by election , and this is done by the freemen who are the associates to the governour , to whom all the power is granted . and these are to governe according to their lawes made and established , and not according to their wills . and however there are many that are not free amongst us , yet if understanding men and able to bee helpefull , it 's more their owne faults then otherwise oft-times , who will not take up their freedome lest they should bee sent on these service● ( as our salamander and most of his disciples who are too many i must confesse ) and yet it is the same with many thousands in this kingdome who have not libertie to choose : nor yet may the freeholders and freemen choose , any that are not freeholders , freemen , and gentlemen of such a rank or quality that are chosen . so that for my own part i see not but that as we go by the expresse of our letters patents , so we goe according to the practise of england ; the law made binding the maker as wel as any other , having o●●rule for all . as for our trialls between man and man , hee knowes wee goe by jury there as well as here : and in criminalls and capitalls wee goe by grand jury and petty jury . and where the death of any is suddaine , violent or uncertaine , the ●rowner sits upon it by a quest , and returneth a verdict , &c. and all according to the commendable custome of england , whom ▪ wee desire to follow . but their maine objection is ; that wee have not p●nall lawes exactly set downe in all cases ? 't is true i confesse , neither can they finde any common we●●●● under heaven , or ever was , but some things were reserved to the discretion of the judges , and so it is with us and no otherwise , our generall courts meeting together twice a yeere at least hitherto for that very end , and so continuing so long as their occasions and the season will permit ; and in case any ●●sdemeaner befall where no penaltie is set down , it is by solemne order left to the discretion of the b●nch , who next to the word of god take the law of england for their president before all other whatsoever . and as i said before , if i would enter into particulars i could here setdowne in a line parallel as i received it in answer to the petition of doctor robert childe , &c. mentioned in their booke , the fundamentalls of the massachusets concurring with the priviledges of magn● c●●●●● and the common law of england at large . but as i said before , it would bee too tedious for answer to this worthlesse and malicious charge . and yet i dare affirme that virgini● , barbadoes , christoph●rs , mevis and a●●i●g● have not all of them so many lawes as new-england , nor so many expresse penalties annexed . as for the ●●●ting of the foure colonies , i briefly shewed the reason of it in my former treatise , being necessitated thereunto ●●y a secret combination of the indians to ●●● in all off , as our salamander well knowes and approved ; and if in ▪ america we should forbeare to unite for offence and defence against a ●…on enemy ( keeping our governments still dist●●ct as wee d●● ) till wee have leave from england , our throats might bee allout before the messenger would bee halfe seas thorough ▪ but hee that will c●rpe at this , what will hee not doe ? and for not making of our warrants in the kings name which is another thing hee comp●●neth of : hee well knowes the practise of the countrey is various in that respect , some constantly observing it , others omitting to expresse it , but all deriving our authority from hence . but if any wonder why i say so much in answer to it as i doe , it is because i never purpose for reply to any thing he or any other shall write in this kinde to him , for 't is to no end to write many bookes , especially when wee have to deale with such an one as delights in contention and nothing else . in the last place take notice good reader how hee cavills , and is vexed at , rather then answers any thing i say tending to preserve peace and unitie betweene the presbyterian and independent brethren . and whereas hee saith there is fallacy in what i have written , how can that bee ? when i shew the very particular instances and persons that did and still do hold communion with us , and our salamander knoweth most of these persons , and i beleeve the very things also , and hath nothing to say against any one of the instances brought , onely hee asketh whether any of us the many thousands ( a great word ) that came from new-england , doe communicate here with the presbyterians . to which i answer by way of question to any rationall and indifferent man , whether a church or churches of ours , allowing and admitting any of the presbyterians or their members into full communion with them , doth not more fully answer the question or his cavill , and prove communion of churches on our part , then for a particular member of ours to joyne in communion with some of the presbyterian churches which it may bee that independent church whereof hee is may never heare of ? and sure enough if i should draw an argument from his proposition to prove it ; hee would bee sure to say your churches allow it not , &c. and therefore it proves no communion of churches at all . secondly , were i where i could not communicate with an independent congregation , and might with a presbyterian , and they walked orderly , i know nothing but i might comfortably partake in that ordinance of the lords supper with them : but i should not forsake that communion i more affected for that i lesse affected where i might enjoy either , nor i beleeve will any understanding presbyterian brother on the other side . and so much for answer to that cavill , and the many branches of it . in the second place , hee cavills at this , that i say in page 96. of my book called , hypocrisie 〈…〉 , that the french and d●tch churches are a people distinct from the world , and gathered into ●● holy communion : and then hee addeth , ( ●ee should ●●●● said c●●●n●●t , which is his sense ) and that the sixth person is not of the church , meaning , amongst them , and this , saith hee , wee have but his word for , and makes is a falshood in me : but i returne it upon himselfe , whose bold spirit dare affirme any thing against the apparent light of the sunne ; for however the dutch baptize the children of all nations that are presented to them , as well as their owne , as i shewed in my former treatise ; yet this their practise stands not upon the presbyterian bottome , nor doe i know , i confesse , what they take for their warrant in it ; yet i affirme , and that of my owne knowledge , having lived divers yeares amongst them , that their church is a select people , gathered together into an holy communion , which holinesse hee scoffes at , and which they call the ●●ement ; and that many thousands of those whose children they baptize , never are admitted to the lords supper , which they account church communion ; nor are ever brought before their classis , and there examined , admitted , occasionally admonished , yea , excommunicated if they submit not to the rule : and that all those that are admitted are such as tender themselves , and thereupon are examined , &c. in the classis ; as before . and for an instance of the truth of it , a godly english minister that had sometimes lived in rotterdam , told me ( upon this very occasion ) that the deacons of the dutch church at rotterdam , told him , that although there were almost 7000. houses in their city , and in many of them divers families , yet they had but 2000 persons in church-fellowship . and for the french churches , who know● not that the nation , i meane , the body of them are still papists , and yet ( as blinde as bayard ) our malicious salamander , whose tongue is known to be no slander from whence he came , doth charge me with falshood herein . 't is true , through gods mercy there are many thousand protestants amongst them , and i wonder that any man should bee so audacious , as to affirm these are not a distinct people from the rest that have undergone so many massacres and persecuti●●● for the testimony of their faith , and witnesse they have borne against the abo●inations of rom● , and the papacy , still so much admired in that nation by the body of it . and as i ●●●d of holland , the sixth person is hardly of the church ; so in france , the tenth man for ought i heare , is not a protestant . and how then they should be a nationall protestant church , i know not . as for his jeere about the covenant , let him goe on in his way of scorn and contempt of the covenant between god and his people ; and yet hee shall finde the church in the old testament established by a covenant ; and after their greatest desertions and declinings , upon solemne dayes of humiliation , their covenants againe renewed throughout the same . and the churches under the new testament are still the same , though the ceremonies and ordinances bee altered by the lord thereof ; yea , the scottish churches , ( which hee saith are nationall , and so would make a breach in that respect between them and us ) are solemne and serious in their covenant ; and the english in the late reformation no lesse serious , to gods glory bee it spoken ; when as there are many hundred thousands in both nations that will not take these their covenants , but remain in popish superstition , and wilfull ignorance . and for our tenders to the scots to live amongst us , and enjoy their liberty in the exercise of the presbyterian government formerly , and the late tender of the court of the massachusets to their petitioners for the enjoyment of it at present , themselves providing for it , 't is not so strange as true : but whereas they say , they hear not of the latter ( being since they came away : ) 't is false ; i have told them , and they may heare it by many others : but they have not the spirit of peace in them , nor will they take notice of any thing that tends thereunto ; but seeke , as appeareth by this postscript , to blow up the coal●s of contention and division , so much as possible may bee , hindering peace and good agreement between brethren , by all the meanes and courses they can use . and for what h●saith concerning mr. h●bbards censure ; daring mee to say , whether mr. hubbard were not punished directly or indirectly for baptizing some children whose parents were not members of the churches in new-england . for answer , i doe and dare affirme in my conscience , that i am firmly perswaded hee was not ; and however i doe not desire to meddle in the case , nor to engage in other mens controversies , but rather seeke to heale them by all due meanes , yet i thought good to answer his challenge in this particular , that so that cloud of jealousie might also be dispelled , so far as concerneth my own thoughts in the case ; and had hee but so much charitie in himselfe as becomes a christian man , i am confident hee would bee of the same mind with mee . and so much for answer to that particular , and the whole book , wherein the reader may see more malice in our accusers , then policy in us , whose simplicity is branded with subtilty , fallacy , and what not ? but blessed bee god , it is by such whose tongues are their owne , and will not bee controuled by any , and from whom i expect all that malice can invent ; but am come to a resolution , that whatever our salamander shal vent either in his own name , or by others ( as at this time ) i wil leave him to god , and referre our vindication to the lord jesus christ , who hath all power in heaven and earth committed to him , in whose eyes , i trust , we are precious , who undoubtedly will clear up our innocency , when these our proud enemies shall bee scattered before him . and to whom with the father and the spirit , god over all , blessed for ever , be glory and praise to all eternity . amen . finis . errata . page 3. l. 38. for another , r. any other ; p. 4. l. 2. for the , r. their ; p. 11. l. 35. for about , r. to put ; p. 19. l. 24. for our , r. their ; ibid. l. 30. for us , r. them ; p. 21. l. 28. for are , r. is . nihil respondes: or, a discovery of the extream unsatisfactorinesse of master colemans peece, published last weeke under the title of a brotherly examination re-examined. wherein, his self-contradictions: his yeelding of some things, and not answering to other things objected against him: his abusing of scripture: his errors in divinity: his abusing of the parliament, and indangering their authority: his abusing of the assembly: his calumnies, and namely against the church of scotland, and against my selfe: the repugnancy of his doctrin to the solemne league and covenant, are plainly demonstrated. / by george gillespie minister at edenburgh. published by authority. gillespie, george, 1613-1648. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a86004 of text r200413 in the english short title catalog (thomason e309_9). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 83 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 19 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a86004 wing g755 thomason e309_9 estc r200413 99861178 99861178 113306 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a86004) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 113306) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 51:e309[9]) nihil respondes: or, a discovery of the extream unsatisfactorinesse of master colemans peece, published last weeke under the title of a brotherly examination re-examined. wherein, his self-contradictions: his yeelding of some things, and not answering to other things objected against him: his abusing of scripture: his errors in divinity: his abusing of the parliament, and indangering their authority: his abusing of the assembly: his calumnies, and namely against the church of scotland, and against my selfe: the repugnancy of his doctrin to the solemne league and covenant, are plainly demonstrated. / by george gillespie minister at edenburgh. published by authority. gillespie, george, 1613-1648. [2], 34 p. for robert bostock dwelling in pauls church-yard, at the signe of the kings head., printed at london : 1645. a reply to: coleman, thomas. a brotherly examination re-examined (wing c5049). annotation on thomason copy: "nouemb: 13". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng coleman, thomas, 1598-1647. -brotherly examination re-examined -early works to 1800. church polity -early works to 1800. great britain -church history -17th century -early works to 1800. a86004 r200413 (thomason e309_9). civilwar no nihil respondes: or, a discovery of the extream unsatisfactorinesse of master colemans peece, published last weeke under the title of a brot gillespie, george 1645 14865 105 5 0 0 0 0 74 d the rate of 74 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the d category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-03 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-04 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-09 john latta sampled and proofread 2008-09 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2009-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion nihil respondes : or , a discovery of the extream unsatisfactorinesse of master colemans peece , published last weeke under the title of a brotherly examination re-examined . wherein , his self-contradictions : his yeelding of some things , and not answering to other things objected against him : his abusing of scripture : his errors in divinity : his abusing of the parliament , and indangering their authority : his abusing of the assembly : his calumnies , and namely against the church of scotland , and against my selfe : the repugnancy of his doctrin to the solemne league and covenant , are plainly demonstrated . by george gillespie minister at edenburgh . 1 tim. 1. 7. vnderstanding neither what they say , nor whereof they affirme . published by authority . printed at london for robert bostock dwelling in pauls church-yard , at the signe of the kings head . 1645. a discovery of the extreame unsatisfactorinesse of master colemans peece , published last week under the title of , a brotherly examination re-examined . after that master coleman had preached and printed such doctrine as i was in my conscience fully perswaded was contrary to the covenant of the three kingdomes , and destructive ( if it were put in practice ) to the reformation of religion : he having also flatly and publikely imputed to the commissioners from the church of scotland , a great part of the fault of hindering union in the assembly here . i thought my selfe obliged in duty and in the trust which i bear , to give a publike testimony against his doctrin , ( which others did also ) upon occasion not sought , but by divine providence , and a publike calling then offered , first for preaching , and after for printing ; in either of which i thinke there did not appeare the least dis-respect or bitternesse towards the reverend brother . the lord knowes my intention was to speake to the matter , to vindicate the truth , and to remove that impediment of reformation by him cast in : and if he , or any man else had in meeknesse of spirit , gravely and rationally , for clearing of truth , endeavoured to confute me , i ought not , i should not have taken it ill ; but now when this peece of his against me , called a brotherly examination re-examined ( i thinke he would or should have said examined , for this is the first examination of it ) i finde it more full of railing than of reasoning , of gibing than of gravity ; and when polemicks doe so degenerate , the world is abused , not edified . he tells me if i have not worke enough i shall have more ; i confesse the answering of this peece is no great worke , and the truth is , i am ashamed i have so little to make answer unto , yet i shall doe my best to improve even this worke to edification . when other worke comes i wish it be worke indeed , and not words . res cum re , ratio cum ratione concertet , as the father said ; arguments sir , arguments , arguments , if there be any : you have affirmed great things , and new things which you have not proved . the assertions of such as are for a church government in genere , and for the presbyteriall government in specie , are knowne ; their arguments are knowne , but your solutions are not yet knowne . if mr. prynnes booke against the suspension of scandalous persons from the sacrament be the worke for the present , which he meanes , i hope it shall be in due time most satisfactorily spoken unto both by others and by my selfe ; i desire rather solid then subitane lucubrations : in the meane while , let not him that putteth on his armour , boast as he that putteth it off . and let the brother that puts me in minde of other worke , remember that himselfe hath other worke to doe which he hath not yet done . i have for better method and clearnesse divided this following discourse into certaine heads , taking in under every head such particulars in his reply as i conceive to be most proper to that point . that master coleman doth not onely prevaricate but contradict himselfe , concerning the state of the question . he tels us often that he doth not deny to church-officers all power of church-government , but onely the corrective part of government : that the doctrinall and declarative power is in the ministery , see pag. 11. & 14 he denyeth that he did advise the parliament to take church government wholly into their owne hands , i never had it in my thoughts saith he , that the parliament had power of dispensing the word and sacraments . i must confesse it is to me new language which i never heard before , that the dispensing of the word and sacraments is a part of church government ; sure the word government is not , nor was never so understood in the controversies concerning church government : but if it be , why did the brother in his sermon oppose doctrine and government , give us doctrine , said he , take you the government . but behold now how he doth most palpaply contradict himselfe , in one and the same page ; it is the 11th . i know no such distinction of government , saith he , ecclesiasticall and civill , in the sence i take government for the corrective part thereof ; all ecclesiasticall ( improperly called ) government , being meerely doctrinall ; the corrective or primitive part being civill or temporall . againe within a few lines ; i doe acknowledge a presbyterian government , i said so expresly in my epistle , and doe heartily subscribe to the votes of the house . if he heartily subscribe to the votes and ordinances of parliament , then be heartily subscribeth that elderships suspend men from the sacrament for any of the scandalls enumerate , it being proved by witnesses upon oath ; this power is corrective , not meerly doctrinall . he must also subscribe to the subordination of congrigationall , classicall , and synodicall assemblies in the government of the church , and to appeales from the lesser to the greater , as likewise to ordination by presbyteries ; and i pray , is all this meerly doctrinall ? and will he now subscribe heartily to all this ; how will that stand with the other passages before cited ? or with page 17. where it being objected to him , that he takes away from elderships all power of spirituall censures ; his reply neither yeeldeth excommunication nor suspention , but admonition alone , and that by the ministers who are a part of the elderships , not by the whole eldership consistorially . againe , page 14. he confesseth ; i advised the parliament to lay no burthen of government upon them , whom he , this commissioner thinkes church officers , pastors and ruling-elders . now i argue thus ; he that adviseth the parliament to lay no burthen of government upon ministers and ruling elders , he adviseth the parliament to doe contrary to their owne votes and ordinances , and so is farre from subscribing heartily thereunto . but mr. coleman by his owne confession adviseth the parliament to lay no burthen of government upon ministers and ruling elders ; ergo , &c. how he will reconcile himselfe with himselfe , let him looke to it . page 11. he takes it ill that one while i make him an enemy to all church government , then onely to the presbyteriall ; onely is his owne addition . but i had reason to make him an enemy to both , for so he hath made himselfe ; yea , in opposing all church government he cannot chuse but oppose presbyteriall government : for the consequence is necessary , a genere ad speciem , negatively though not affirmatively . if no church government , then no presbyteriall government . the particulars in my brief examination , which mr. coleman either granteth expresly , or else doth not reply unto . my argument page 32. proving , that as many things ought to be established jure divino as can well be , because he cannot answer it , therefore he granteth it . pag. 5. he had in his sermon call'd for plaine and cleare institutions , and let scripture speake expresly . now pag. 7. he yeeldeth , that it is not onely a divine truth ( as i call'd it ) but cleare scripture , which is drawne by necessary consequence from scripture . he hath not yet ( though put in minde ) produced the least exception against the known arguments for excommunication and church government , drawn from mat. 18. and 1 cor. 5. he tells the affirmer is to prove ; but the affirmers have proved : and their arguments are known , ( yea he himselfe pag. 1. saith ; i have had the opportunity to heare almost what man can say in either side , speaking of the controversie of church government ) therefore he should have made a better answer , then to say that those places did not take hold of his conscience , yet if he have not heard enough of those places he shall i trust ere long heare more . he had said , i could never yet see how two coordinate governments exempt from superiority and inferiority , can be in one state , page 35. i gave him three instances , a generall and an admirall , a father and a master , a captaine and a master of a ship ; this pag. 8. he doth not deny , nor saith one word against it ; onely he endeavoureth to make those similes to run upon foure feete , and to resemble the generall assembly , and the parliament in every circumstance ; but i did not at all apply them to the generall assembly , and the parliament . onely i brought them to overthrow that generall thesis of his concerning the inconsistency of two co-ordinate governments , which if he could defend ; why hath not he done it ? his keeping up of the names of clergy and laiety being challenged by me , pag. 36. he hath not said one word in his re-examination to justifie it . i having pag. 37 , 38. confuted his argument drawn from the measuring of others by himselfe , whereby he did endeavour to prove that he had cause to feare an ambitious ensnarement in others as well as in himself , god having fashioned all mens hearts alike ; now he quitteth his ground and saith nothing for vindicating that argument , from my exceptions . i shewed pag. 40. his misapplying of the king of sodonus speech , but neither in this doth he vindicate himselfe . that which i had at length excepted against his fourth rule concerning the magistrate , and his confirmation thereof , he hath not answered , nor so much as touched any thing which i had said against him from the end of page 42. to the end of page 48. except onely a part of page 43. and of page 44. concerning 1 cor. 12. 28. some contrarious argumentations he hath page 21. ( of which after ) but no answer to mine . page 10. he digresseth to other objections of his own framing , instead of taking off what i had said . his abusing of the scriptures . master coleman did ground an argument upon psal. 33. 15 , prov. 27. 29. which cannot stand with the intent of the holy ghost , because contrary to other scriptures , and to the truth , as i proved pag. 38. he answereth in his re-examination that my sence may stand , and his may stand too ; but if my sence may stand , which is contrary to his , then his argument had no sure ground for it ; yea , that which i said was to prove that his consequence drawne from those scriptures did contradict both the apostle pauls doctrine and his owne profession , which still lyeth upon him since it is not answered . page 14. he citeth 1 cor. 10. 33. give none offence neither to the jewes nor to the gentiles , nor to the churches of christ ; to prove that all government is either a jewish government , or a church government , or a heathenish government , and that there is no third ; yes sir , your selfe hath given a third , ( for you have told three ) but transeat cum caeteris errorihus . to the matter . this is a perverting of scripture to prove an untruth ; for the government of generalls , admiralls , majors , sheriffes , is neither a jewish government , nor a church government , nor a heathenish government . neither doth the apostle speake any thing of government in that place ; he maketh a distribution of all men who are in danger to be scandalized , not of governments . and if he had applyed the place rightly to the parliament of england , he had said , they are either of the jewes , or of the gentiles , or of the church of god , and this needeth not an answer . but when he saith ; the english parliament is either a jewish government , or a church government , or a heathenish government , i answer it is none of these , but it is a civill government . pag. 15. declaring his opinion of church government , he citeth rom. 13. 4. for the punishment of him that doth evill ; to prove that the punitive part belongs to the christian magistrate . but what is this to the punitive part which is in controversie , spirituall censures , suspention from the sacrament , deposition from the ministery , excommunication . the punitive part spoken of rom. 13. belongeth to all civill magistrates whether christian or infidell . pag. 18. he maketh this reply to 1 thess. 5. 12. 1 tim. 17. heb. 13. 7. 17. why man ! i have found these an hundred and an hundred times twice told , and yet am i as i was . why sir , was the argument so ridiculous , i had brought those places to prove another government ( and if you will the institution of another government ) beside magistracy , which he said he did not finde in scripture . here are some who are no civill magistrates set over the thessalonians in the lord , 1 thess. 5. 12. paul writeth to timothy of elders that rule well , 1 tim. 5. 17. the churches of the hebrewes had some rulers who had spoken to them the word of god , heb. 13. 7. rulers that watched for their soules as they that must give an account , verse 17. now let the reverend brother speake out , what can he answer ? were these rulers civill magistrates ? did the civill magistrate speake to them the word of god ? if these rulers were not magistrates but ministers , i aske next , is it a matter of indifferency and no institution to have a ministery in a church or not ? i hope though he doe not acknowledge ruling elders jure divino , yet he will acknowledge that the ministers of the word are jure divino ; yet these were some of the rulers mentioned in the scriptures quoted . let him loose the knot , and laugh when he hath done . page 19. 20. he laboureth to prove from 1 cor. 12. 28. that christ hath placed civill government in his church , and whereas it is said , that though it were granted that civill governments are meant in that place , yet it proves not that christ hath placed them in the church : he replyeth ; i am sure the commissioner will not stand to this : he that placed governours was the same that placed teachers . but his assurance deceiveth him , for upon supposition that civill governments are there meant , ( which is his sence ) i deny it , and he doth but petere principium . god placed civill governments , christ placed teachers ; god placed all whom christ placed , but christ did not place all whom god placed . next , whereas it was said , that governments in that place cannot be meant of christian magistrates , because at that time the church had no christian magistrates ; he replyeth , that paul speaks of governments that the church had not , because in the enumeration , ver. 29 , 30. he omits none but helpes and governments . i answer , the reason of that omission is not because these two were not then in being ( for god had set them as well as the rest in the church , ver. 28. ) but to make ruling elders and deacons contented with their station , though they be not prophets , teachers , &c. thirdly , i asked how comes civill government into the catalogue of ecclesiasticall and spiritaall administrations . his reply is nothing but an affirmation , that christian megistracy is an ecclesiasticall admiration , and a quere whether working of miracles and gifts of healing be ecclesiasticall . answ. hence followeth , 1. that if the magistrate cease to be christian , he loseth his administration . 2. that though a worker of miracles cease to be christian , yet it is a question whether he may not still worke miracles . lastly , where i objected that he puts magistracy behind ministery , he makes no answer , but onely that he may doe this as well as my rule puts the nobility of scotland behind the ministery . no sir , we put but ruling elders behind ministers in the order of their administrations , because the apostle doth so . it is accidentall to the ruling elder to be of the nobility , or to nobles to be ruling elders : there are but some so , and many otherwise . that of placing deacons before elders , 1 cor. 12. 28 is no great matter , sure the apostle , rom. 12. placeth elders before deacons . his errors in divinity . 1. pag. 21. he admitteth no church-government distinct from civill , except that which is meerly doctrinall . and pa. 14. he adviseth the parliament to take the corrective power wholly into their own hands , and exempteth nothing of ecclesiasticall power from their hands but the dispencing of the word and sacraments . hence it followeth that there ought to be neither suspension from the sacrament , nor excommunication , nor ordination , nor deposition of ministers , nor receiving of appeals , except all these things be done by the civill magistrate . if he say the magistrate gives leave to do these things . i answer . 1. so doth he give leave to preach the word , and minister the sacraments in his dominions . 2. why doth he then in his sermon , and doth still in his re-examination , pag. 14. advise the parlament to lay no burthen of corrective government upon ministers , but keep it wholly in their own hands : it must needs be far contrary to his mind , that the magistrate gives leave to do the things above mentioned , they being most of them corrective , and all of them more than doctrinall . 3. he gives no more power to ministers in church-government then in civill government : for pag. 11. he ascribeth to them a ministeriall , doctrinall , and declarative power , both in civill and ecclesiasticall government . 2. pag. 11. and 14. he holds , that the corrective or punitive part of church-government is civill or temporall , and is wholly to be kept in the magistrates own hands . and in his sermon , pag. 25. he told us he sees not in the whole bible any one act of that church-government in controversie , performed . all which how erroneous it is , appeareth easily from 1 cor. 5. 12. put away that wicked person from among you : which mr. prynne himself in his vindication , pag. 2. acknowledgeth to be a warrant for excommunication , 2 cor. 2. 6. there is a punishment or censure inflicted by many , 1 tim. 5. 19. against an elder receive not an accusation but before two or three witnesses . where acts of church-government or censures were neglected , it is extremly blamed . rev : 2. 14 , 15. 20. was not all this corrective , yet not civill or temporall ? 3. pag. 9. whereas i had said that without church-government , ministers shall not keep themselves nor the ordinances from pollution . he replyeth pag. 9. that he understands neither this keeping of themselves from pollution , no● what this pollution of the ordinances is . i am sorry for it , that any minister of the gospel is found unclear in such a point . i will not give my own , but scripturall answers to both . the former is answered , 1 tim. 5. 22. be not partaker of other mens sins , keep thy self pure . it is sin to dispense ordinances to the unworthy whether ordination , or communion in the sacrament . for the other the pollution of ordinances is the scripture language . i hope he means not to quarrell at the holy ghosts language , ezek. 22. 26. her priests have violated my law , and have profaned mine holy things : they have put no difference between the holy and profane . mal. 1. 7. ye offer polluted bread , upon mine altar : vers. 12. ye have prophaned it . mat. 21. 13. ye have made it a den of theeves . matth : 7. 6. cast not pearls before swine , lest they trample them under their feet . 4. pag. 11. whereas i had objected to him , that he excludeth ruling elders , as well as ministers from government : he answers , that ruling elders are either the same for office and ordination with the minister ( which as he thinks the independents own , but not i ) or they are the christian magistrate , and so he saith he doth not exclude them . mark here he excludeth all ruling elders from a share in church-government , who are not either the same for office and ordination with the minister , or else the christian magistrate ; and so upon the matter he holdeth that ruling elders are to have no hand in church-government . those ruling elders which are in the votes of the assembly , and in the reformed churches , have neither the power of civill magistracy ( qua elders and many of them not at all being no magistrates ) nor yet are they the same for office and ordination with the minister , for their office , and consequently their ordination to that office , is distinct from that of the minister , among all that i know . and so excluding all ruling elders from government who are neither magistrates nor the same with ministers , he must needs take upon him that which i charged him with . 5. pag. 21. where he makes reply to what he had said against his argument from ephes. 1. three last verses . he saith he will blow away all my discourse with this clear demonstration . that which is given to christ , he hath it not as god , and christ as god cannot be given . but this place ( ephes. 1. three last verses ) speaketh both of dignity given to christ , and of christ as a gift given . therefore christ cannot be here understood as god . this is in opposition to what i said pag. 45. concerning the headship and dignity of christ , as the naturall son of god , the image of the invisible god . colos. 1. 15. and pag. 43. of the dominion of christ as he is the eternall son of god . this being premised , the brothers demonstration is so strong as to blow himself into a blasphemous heresie . i will take the proposition from himself , and the assumption from scripture , thus . that which is given to christ , he hath it not as god . but all power in heaven and in earth is given to christ , matth. 28. 18. life is given to christ , joh. 5. 26. authority to execute judgement is given to christ , ibid. ver. 27. all things are given into christs hands , joh. 3. 35. the father hath given him power over all flesh , joh : 17. 2. he hath given him glory , joh : 17. 22. ergo , by mr. colemans principles , christ hath neither life , nor glory , nor authority to execute judgement , nor power over all flesh , as he is the eternall son of god consubstantiall with the father , but onely as he is mediator god and man . as for the giving of christ as god , what if i argue thus . if christ as he is the eternall son of god , or second person of the ever blessed trinity , could not be given , then the incarnation it self , or the sending of the son of god to take on our flesh , cannot be called a giving of a gift to us . but this were impious to say . ergo . again , if christ as he is the second person of the blessed trinity could not be given , then the holy ghost as he is the third person cannot be given ( for they are coessentiall , and that which were a dishonour to god the son , were a dishonour to god the holy ghost ) but to say that the holy ghost cannot be given as the third person , were to say that he cannot be given as the holy ghost . and what will he then say to all these scriptures that speak of the giving of the holy ghost ? act. 15. 8. rom. 5. 5. 1 joh : 4. 13. &c. finally , as mr. colemans demonstration hath blown away it self , so it could not hurt me , were it solid and good ( as it is not ) for he should have taken notice that in my examination i did not restrict the dignity given to christ , ephes. 1. 21. nor the giving of christ , vers. 22. to the divine nature onely . nay i told pag. 44 , 45. that those words of the apostle hold true even of the humane nature of christ . 6. pag. 21. he concludeth with a syllogisme which he calleth the scope of my discourse ( i know not by what logick the proposition being forged by himself , and contrary to my discourse ) thus it is . whosoever do not manage their office and authority under christ and for christ , they manage it under the devill , and for the devill , for there is no middle , either christ or belial . he that is not with me is against me . but according to the opinion of the commissioner , christian magistracy doth not manage the office and authority thereof under christ , and for christ . therefore , he beleeves i shall be hard put to it , to give the kingdom a clear and satisfactory answer . it s wel that this is the hardest task he could set me . the truth is , his syllogisme hath quatuor terminos , and is therefore worthy to be exploded by all that know the laws of disputation . those words in the proposition under christ , and for christ , can have no other sence , but to be serviceable to christ , to take part with him , and to be for the glory of christ , as is clear by the confirmation added , he that is not with me is against me . but the same words in the assumption must needs have another sence , under christ and for christ , that is , vice christi , in christs stead . for that which i denyed was , that magistracy is derived from christ as mediator , or that christ as mediator hath given a commission of vicegerentship and deputy-ship to the christian magistrate to manage his office and authority under & for him , and in his name . as is clear in my examination , pag. 42. nay mr. coleman himself a little before his syllogisme , pa. 19. takes notice of so much . his words are these . the commissioner saith , magistracy i● not derived from christ : i say magistracy is given to christ to be serviceable in his kingdom : so that though the commissioners assertion be sound ( which in due place will be discussed ) yet it infringeth nothing that i said . now then quâ fide could he in his argument against me confound these two things which he himself had but just now carefully distinguished . if he will make any thing of his syllogisme , he must hold at one of these two sences . in the first sence , it is true that all are either for christ or against christ . and it is as true that his assumption must be distinguished . for de facto the christian magistrate is for christ when he doth his duty faithfully , and is against christ if he be unfaithfull . but de jure , it holds true universally that the christian magistrate manageth his office under and for christ , that is , so as to be serviceable for the kingdom and glory of christ . in the second sence ( which onely concerneth me ) taking under and for christ , to be in christs stead as his deputies or vicegerents : so his assumption , is lame and imperfect , because it doth not hold forth my opinion clearly . that which i did and still do hold is this . that the civill magistrate , whether christian or pagan , is gods vicegerent , who by vertue of that vicegerent-ship is to manage his office and authority under god , and for god , that is in gods stead , and as god upon earth . but he is not the vicegerent of christ as mediator , neither is he by vertue of any such vicegerentship to manage his office and authority under christ , and for christ , that is , in christs stead , and as christ mediator upon earth . this was and is my plain opinion ( nor mine alone , but of others more learned ) and mr. coleman hath not said so much as {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} to confute it . so much for the assumption . but in the same sence i utterly deny his proposition as being a great untruth in divinity , for the sence of it can be no other then this , whosoever do not manage their office and authority in christs stead , or as deputies and vicegerents of christ as he is mediator , they manage it in the devils stead , as the devils deputies and vicegerents . now i assume . pagan magistrates do not manage their office as the deputies and vicegerents of jesus christ , as he is mediator : ergo as the devils deputies . which way was the authority derived to them from christ as mediator . mr. coleman pag. 19. saith in answer to this particular ( formerly objected ) that christ is rightfull king of the whole earth , and all nations ought to receive christ , though as yet they do not . but this helpeth him not . that which he had to shew , was that the pagan magistrate , even while continuing pagan , and not christian , doth manage his office as christs deputy and vicegerent . if not , then i conclude by his principles , a pagan magistrate is the devils deputy and vicegerent , which is contrary to pauls doctrine , who will have us to be subject for conscience sake , even to heathen magistrates as the ministers of god for good . rom. 13. first 7 verses . by the same argument mr. coleman must grant that generals , admirals , majors , sheriffes , constables , captains , masters , yea every man that hath an office , is either christs vicegerent , or the devils vicegerent : then which what can be more absurd ? i might beside all these shew some other flawes in his divinity , as namely , pa. 9. and 13. he doth not agree to this proposition , that the admitting of the scandalous and prophane to the lords table , makes ministers to partake of their sins . and he supposeth that ministers may do their duty , though they admit the scandalous . but of this elsewhere . his abusing of the honorable houses of parlament . most honorable senators , i humbly beseech you to look about you , and take notice how far you are abused by mr. coleman . 1. while he pretendeth to give you more then his brethren , he taketh a great deal more from you , and ( so far as in him lieth ) even shaketh the foundation of your authority . the known tenure of magistracy is from god , he is the minister of god for good , and the powers that are , are ordained of god , saith the apostle ; the magistrate is gods vicegerent . but now this brother seeketh a new tenure and derivation of magistracy , which takes away the old . he told in his sermon , pa. 27. christ hath placed governments in his church , 1 cor. 12. 28. of other governments beside magistracy i find no institution , of them i do . rom. 13. 1 , 2. i find all government given to christ , and to christ as mediator , ( i desire all to consider it ) ephes. 1. three last ▪ vers. and christ as head of these given to the church . here you have these three in subordination . god , christ , and the christian magistrate . god gives once all government even civill to christ , and to him as mediator . well but how comes it then to the magistrate ? not straight by a deputation from god . mr. colemans doctrine makes an interception of the power . he holds that god hath put it in christs hands as mediator . how then ? the brother holdeth that christ as mediator hath instituted and placed the christian magistrate , yea and no other government in his church . this was the ground of my answer , pag. 42. that he must either prove from scripture that christ as mediator hath given such a commission of vicegerent-ship and deputy-ship to the christian magistrate : or otherwise acknowledge that he hath given a most dangerous wound to magistracie , and made it an emptie title claiming that power which it hath no warrant to assume . i added : as the mediator hath not anywhere given such a commission and power to the magistrate , so as mediator he had it not to give : for he was not made a judge in civill affairs , luk. 12. 14. and his kingdom is not of this world . joh. 18. 36. now but what reply hath he made to all this ? pa. 19. he saith granting it all to be true and sound , yet it infringeth not what he said . the commissioner ( saith he ) saith magistracy is not derived from christ : i say magistracie is given to christ to be serviceable in his kingdom . but by his good leave and favour he said a great deal more then this , for he spake of christ his being head of all civill governments , and his placing these in his church , as he is mediator . yea that fourth rule delivered by him in his sermon , did hold forth these assertions . 1. that god gave all government even civill to christ , and to him as mediator . 2. that christ as mediator hath power and authority to place and substitute under and for him the christian magistrate . 3. that christ hath placed and instituted civill governments in his church , to be under and for him as he is mediator . 4. that the christian magistrate doth , and all magistrates should manage their office under and for christ , ( that is , as his vicegerents ) he being as mediator head of all civil government . now in stead of defending his doctrine from my just exceptions made against it , he revileth , and having brought the magistrate in a snare , leaves him there . he endeavours to vindicate no more but this , that magistracy is given to christ to be serviceable in his kingdom . but if he had said so at first , i had said with him , and not against him in that point . and if he will yet hold at that , why doth he pag. 19. refer my assertion to further discussion ? secondly , he hath abused the parliament in holding forth that rule to them in his sermon , establish as few things jure divino as can well be . and yet now he is made by strength of argument to acknowledge pag. 5. that this is a good rule . establish as many things . jure divino as can well be . thirdly , i having stated the question to be not whether this or that form of church-government be jure divino , but whether a church government be jure divino ? whether christ hath thus far revealed his will in his word , that there are to be church censures , and those to be dispenced by church-officers . i said the brother is for the negative of this question , pa. 32. this he flatly denieth , pag. 5 , 6. whereby he acknowledgeth the affirmative , that there is a church government jure divino , and that jesus christ hath so far revealed his will in his word , that there are to be church censures , and those to be dispensed by church-officers . but how doth this agree with his sermon ? christ hath placed governments in his church . of other governments ( said he ) beside magistracie i find no institution , of them i do . is magistracie church-government ? are magistrates church-officers ? are the civill punishments church censures ? is this the mystery ? yes , that it is : he will tell us anon that the houses of parliament are church-officers ; but if that bolt doe any hurt i am much mistaken . fourthly , he professeth to subscribe to the votes of parliament concerning church-government , page 11. and yet he still pleadeth that all ecclesiasticall government is meerely doctrinall , ibid. the parliament having voted that power to church-officers which is not doctrinall ( as i shewed before ) and he adviseth the parliament to keep wholy in their own hands the corrective part of church-government , page 14. though the parliament hath put into the hands of elderships a power of suspention from the sacrament , which is corrective . fifthly , he did deliver in that sermon before the honourable house of commons , divers particulars , which being justly excepted against , and he undertaking a vindication , yet he hath receded from them , or not being able to defend them , as that concerning two co-ordinate governments in one kingdome , and his argument concerning the feare of an ambitious ensnarement in ministers ; these being by me enfringed he hath not so much as offered to make them good . sixtly , having acknowledged under his owne hand that he was sorry he had given offence to the reverend assembly , and to the commissioners from scotland , he now appealeth to the parliament , and tells us they are able to judge of a scandalous sermon , and they thought not so of it , page 3. i know they are able to judge of a scandalous sermon , that they thought not so of it , it s more then i know or beleeve ; however i know they have a tender respect to the offence of others even when themselves are not offended , and so they and all men ought to doe according to the rule of christ : for his part after he had acknowledged he had given offence , it is a dis-service to the parliament to lay over the thing upon them ; for my part , i thinke i doe better service to the parliament in interpreting otherwise that second order of the house , not onely desiring but injoyning mr. coleman to print that sermon ; as near as he could as he preached it . this was not ( as he takes it ) one portion of approbation above all its brethren ( for i shall not beleeve that so wise an auditory was not at all scandalized at the hearing of that which was contrary both to the covenant , and to their own votes concerning church-government ; nor at that which he told them out of the jewish records , that hezekiah was the first man that ever was sick in the world , and did recover ) but as i humbly conceive it was a reall censure put upon him : his sermon being so much excepted against and stumbled at , the honourable house of commons did wisely injoyne him to print his sermon , that it might abide triall in the light of the world , and lye open to any just exceptions which could be made against it abroad , and that he might stand or fall to himself . seventhly , he abuseth the parliament by arrogating so much to himselfe as that his sermon will in the end take away all difference , and settle union , page 3. and that his modell will be when he is dead the modell of englands church-government , as he saith in his postscript , whether this be prophecying or presuming , i hope we are free to judge and what if the wisedome and authority of the honourable houses upon advice from the reverend and learned assembly chuse another way than this ? must all the synodicall debates , and all the grave parliamentary consultations resolve themselves into master colemans way , like jordan into mare mortuum . eightly , he doth extreamly wound the authority of parliament in making their office to be a church office , and of the same kind with the ministers office , page 14. doe not i hold ministers church-officers ? and a little after . i desire the parliament to consider another presbyterian principle , that excludes your honourable assembly from being church-officers . if so , then the offices of the magistrate and of the minister must stand and fall together ; that is , if the nation were not christian , the office of magistracy should cease as well as that of the ministery ; and if he make the magistrate a church-officer , he must also give him ordination , except with the socinians he deny the necessity of ordination . his abusing the reverend assembly of divines . whereas i had objected that his sermon had given no small scandall and offence , he replyeth page 3. but hath it given offence ? to whom ? i appeale to the honourable audience . is this candide or faire dealing when he himselfe knew both that he had given offence , and to whom . i shall give him no other answer but his owne declaration which he gave under his hand , after he had preached that sermon . for much of what is reported of my sermon i utterly deny , and referre my selfe to the sermon it selfe ; for what i have acknowledged to be delivered by me , although it is my judgement , yet because i see it hath given a great deale of offence to this assembly , and the reverend commissioners of scotland ; i am sorry i have given offence in the delivery thereof . and for the printing , although i have an order , i will forbeare , except i be further commanded . tho. coleman . page 33. i had this passage : and where he asketh where the independents and we should meet ? i answer ; in holding a church government jure divino , that is , that the pastours and elders ought to suspend , or excommunicate ( according to the degree of the offence ) scandalous sinners . who can tell but the purging of the church from scandalls , and the keeping of the ordinances pure ( when it shall be actually seene to be the great worke endeavoured on both sides ) may make union between us and the independents more easie then many imagine . what reply hath he made to this ? pag. 6. sure i dreame ( awake then ) but i will tell you newes : the presbiterians and independents are ( he should have said may be ) united ; nay more , the lutherans and calvinists : nay more yet , the papist and protestant : nay more then so , the turk and christian . but wherein ? in holding that there is a religion wherein men ought to walke . no sir ; they must be united upon the like termes : that is , you must first have turkes to be christians , and papists to be protestants , and then you must have them as willing to purge the church of scandalls , and to keepe the ordinances pure . we will never dispaire of an union with such as are sound in the faith , holy in life , and willing to a church-refining and sin-censuring government in the hands of church officers . in the meane while it is no light imputation upon the assembly to hint this much , that the harmony and concord among the members thereof for such a government as i have now named ( though in some other particulars dissenting ) can no more unite them , than turkes and christians , papists and protestants can be united ; and now i will tell you my newes ; the presbiterians and independents are both equally interested against the erastian principles . he reflecteth also upon the assembly in the point of jus divinum , page 6. but what his part hath been in reference to the proceedings in the assembly is more fully , and in divers particulars expressed in the briefe view of mr. coleman his new modell , unto which he hath offered no answer . his calumnies . page 3. he desireth me with wisdome and humility to minde what church-refining , and sin-censuring worke this church-government with all his activity hath made in scotland , in the point of promiscuous communicating ; i shall desire him with wisdome and humility to mind what charity or conscience there is in such an aspersion ; i dare say divers thousands have keen kept off from the sacrament in scotland , as unworthy to be admitted , where i my selfe have exercised my ministery , there have been some hundreds kept off ; partly for ignorance , and partly for scandall . the order of the church of scotland , and the acts of generall assemblies are for keeping off all scandalous persons , which every godly and faithfull minister doth conscientiously and effectually endeavour ; and if here or there it be too much neglected by some archippus who takes not heed to fulfill the ministery which he hath received of the lord , let him and his eldership beare the blame , and answer for it . page 4. i having professed my unwillingnesse to fall upon such a controversie in a fast sermon . he replyeth ; how can you say , you were unwilling ? but how can you in brotherly charity doubt of it , after i had seriously professed it ? my doing it at two severall fasts ( the onely opportunities i then had to give a testimony to that presently controverted truth is no argument of the contrary . may not a man doe a thing twenty times over and yet doe it unwillingly ? page 5. he slandereth those that did in their sermons give a publike testimony against his doctrine , the occasion ( as he gives out ) not being offered , but taken . but had they not a publike calling and employment to preach as well as himselfe ? and if a fast was not occasion offered to them , how was a fast an occasion offered to him to fall upon the same controversie first , and when none had done the like before him ? a fourth calumny is this . he had first blamed two parties that they came byassed to the assembly ; i answered , how then shall he make himselfe blamelesse who came byassed a third way , which was the erastian way ; and that for our part we came no more byassed to this assembly then the forraine divines came to the synod of dort , alexander to the councell of nice , and cyrell to that of ephesus , and paul to the synod at jerusalem ; but now page 6. 7 , instead of doing us right he doth us greater injury , for now he makes us byassed not onely by our owne judgements , but by something adventitious from without , which he denyeth himself to be , ( but how truely i take not on me to judge : beholders doe often perceive the byassing better then the bowlers ) yea he saith , that i have acknowledged the byas , and justifie it . where sir , where ? i deny it ; it s no byas for a man to be setled , resolved , and ingaged in his judgement for the truth , especially when willing to receive more light , and to learne what needeth to be further reformed . hath he forgotten his owne definition of the byas which he had but just now given ? but he will needs make it more then probable by the instances which i brought , that the commissioners from scotland came not to this assembly , as divines by dispute and disquisition to finde out truth , but as judges to censure all different opinions as errours ; for so came forraigne divines to dort , alexander to the councell of nice , cyrill to ephesus . is it not enough to slander us , though he doe not for our sakes slander those worthy divines that came to the synod of dort , alexander also and cyrill , prime witnesses for the truth in their daies ? could no lesse content him then to approve the objections of the arminians against the synod of dort , which i had mentioned page 33 ? but he gets not away so ; the strongest instance which i had given he hath not once touched : it was concerning paul and barnabas who were ingaged ( not in the behalfe of one nation , but of all the churches of the gentiles ) against the imposition of the mosaicall rites , and had so declared themselves at antioch before they came to jerusalem . finally , whereas he doubts , though not of our willingnesse to learne more , yet of our permission to receive more : that very paper first given in by us ( which i had cited , and unto which he makes this reply ) did speake not onely of our learning , but of the church of scotlands receiving ; and which is more , there is an actuall experiment of it , the last generall assembly having ordered the laying aside of some particular customes in that church , and that for the nearer uniformity with this church of england , as was expressed in their owne letter to the reverend assembly of divines . a fifth calumny there is , page 9. 6. the commissioner is content that jus divinum should be a noli me tangere to the parliament , yet blames what himselfe grants . i was never content it should be a noli me tangere to the parliament , but at most a non necesse est tangere , for so i explained my selfe , page 32 , 33. if the parliament establish that thing which is agreeable to the word of god , though they doe not establish it as jure divino , i acquiesce ; in the meane time both they and all christians , but especially ministers ought to search the scriptures , that what they doe in matters of church-government they may doe it in faith and assurance that it is acceptable to god . it was not of parliamentary sanction , but of divines doctrinall asserting of the will of god that i said , why should ius divinum be such a nolime tangere ? 6 it seemes strange to him that i did at all give instance of the usefulnesse of church-government in the preservation of purity in the ordinances and in church-members . he saith for an independent to have given this instance , had been something ; but it seemes strange to him that i should have given an instance of the power and efficacy of government , as it is presbyteriall , and contradistinct to congregationall . this is a calumny against presbyteriall government , which is neither privative nor contradistinct , but cumulative to congregationall government ; and the congregationall is a part of that government which is comprehended under the name of presbyteriall . but in cases of common concernment , difficulty , appeals , and the like , the preserving of the ordinances and church-members from pollution , doth belong to presbyteries and synods . 7 he sayth of me , page 9. he ascribeth this power of purif●ing men , and means of advancing the power of godlinesse afterward , to government . a calumny . it was only a sine quo non which i ascribed to government , thus farre , that without it ministers shall not keep themselves nor the ordinances from pollution , pag. 23. but that church-government hath power to purify men , i never thought it , nor said it . that which i sayd of the power ( which he pointeth at ) was , that his way can neither preserve the purity , nor advance the power of religion ; page 40. and the reason is , because his way provideth no ecclesiasticall effectuall remedy for removing and purging away the most grosse scandalous sinnes , which are destructive to the power of godlinesse . god must by his word and spirit purify men , and work in them the power of godlinesse . the church-government which i plead for against him , is a meanes subservient and helpfull , so farre as removere prohibens , to remove that which apparently is impeditive and destructive to that purity and power . 8 having told us of the proud swelling waves of presbyteriall goverment , i asked upon what coast had those waves done any hurt , france , or scotland , or holland , or terra incognita ? he replieth page 12. i confesse , i have had no great experience of the presbyteriall government . why make you bold then to slander it , when you can give no sure ground for that you say ? he tels us , his feares arise from scotland , and from london . the reverend and worthy ministers of london can speak for themselves aetatem habent . for my part ( though i know not the particulars ) i am bound in charity not to beleeve those aspersions put upon them by a discontented brother . but what from scotland ? i my selfe ( sayth he ) did heare the presbytery of edingburgh censure a woman to be banished out of the gates of the city ; was not this an encroachment ? it had bin an encroachment indeed , if it had bin so . but he will excuse me if i answer him in his own language ( which i use not ) page 3 and 5. it is at the best a most uncharitable slander . and , there was either ignorance or mindlesnesse in him that sets it down . there is no banishment in scotland but by the civill magistrate , who so farre aideth and assisteth church discipline , that prophane and scandalous persons when they are found unruly and incorrigible , are punished with banshment or otherwise . a stranger comming at a time into one of our presbyteries , and hearing of somewhat which was represented to or reported from the magistrate , ought to have had so much both circumspection and charity , as not to make such a rash and untrue report . he might have at least enquired when he was in scotland and informed himselfe better , whether presbyteries or the civill magistrate doe banish . if he made no such enquiry , he was rash injudging . if he did , his offence is greater , when after information he will not understand . 9 he makes this to be a position of mine , pag. 13. that a learned ministery puts no black marke upon prophanenesse more then upon others . a calumny . for first he makes me to speake non-sence . secondly i did not speake it of a learned ministery , but of his way page 40. how long agoe since a learned ministery was knowne by the name of master colemans way ? his way is a ministery without power of government , or church censures . of this his way i said , that it putteth no black marke upon prophanenesse and scandall in church members more than in any others . and the reason is , because the corrective or punitive part of government he will have to be only civill or temporall ▪ which striketh against those that are without , as well as those within . put the apostle tells us of such a corrective governement , as is a judging of those that are within , and of those only 1 cor. 5. 12. and this way ( which is not only ours , but the apostolicall way ) puts a black marke upon prophanenesse & scandalous sins , in church members more then in any others . 10. he saith of me page 17. the commissioner is the only man that we shall meet with , that forsaking the words , judgeth of the intentions . a calumny . i judged nothing but ex ore tuo . but in this thing he himselfe hath trespassed . i will instance but in two particulars . in that very place he saith admonition is a spirituall censure in the commissioners opinion . whence knowes he that to be my opinion ? consistoriall or presbyteriall admonition given to the unruly , may be called a censure . and if this were his meaning , then ascribing to elderships power of admonition , he gives them some power of spirituall censures , and so something of the corrective part of government ; which were contrary to his owne principles . but he speaketh it of the ministers admonishing , who are but a part of the elderships , as himselfe there granteth . now where did i ever say or write , that admonition by a minister is a spirituall censure ? againe page 4. he so judgeth me , that he not only forsaketh but contradicteth my words , how can you say you were unwilling ? 11. he saith page 16. now the commissioner speaks out , &c ▪ what! not the parliament of england meddle with religion ? a horrid calumny . where have i said it . dic sodes . i never preached before 〈…〉 but i exhorted them to meddle with religion , and that in the first place and above all other things . i shall sooner prove , that master coleman will not have the parliament of england to meddle with civill affaires , because he makes them church officers . it s a non-sequitur . their power is civill , ergo they are not to meddle with religion ? it will be a better consequence . they are church officers . so he makes them , page 14. and christian magistracy is an ecclesiasticall administration . so he saith , page 20. ergo , they are not to meddle with civill government . the repugnancy of his doctrine to the solemn league and covenant . mr coleman , pag. 13. acknowledgeth that to assert any thing contrary to the solemn league and covenant , is a great fault in any , in himselfe more then in divers others , if made out : he having for his own part taken it with the first , and not only so , but having adminstred it to divers others : yes , and take this one circumstance more . in his sermon upon , jer. 30. 21. at the taking of the covenant , septemb. 29. 1643. he answereth this objection against the extirpation of prelacy . but what if the exorbitancies be purged away , may not i notwithstanding my oath , admit of a regulated prelacy ? for satisfaction to this objection ; he answereth thus , first , we swear not against a government , that is not . secondly , we swear against the evils of every government , and doubtlesse many materials of prelacy must of necessity be retained , as absolutely necessary . thirdly , taking away the exorbitancies , the remaining will be a new government , and no prelacy . let the brother now deale ingenuously ; what did he understand by those materials of prelacy absolutely necessary to be retained ? did he understand the dispensing of the word and sacraments , which is common to all pastors ? or , did he understand the priviledges of parliament ? were either of those two materials of prelacy ? and if he had meant either of these , was this the way to satisfie that scruple concerning the extirpation of prelacy ? again , what was that new government which he promised them , after the taking away of the exorbitancies of the old ? was it the ministers doctrinall part ? that is no new thing in england . was it the parliaments assuming of the corrective part of church-government ( as hee improperly distinguisheth ) wholy and soly into their own hands , excluding the ministery from having any hand therein ? this were a new government i confesse . but sure he could not in any reason intend this as a satisfaction to the scruples of such as desired a regulated prelacy , whose scruples he then spoke to ; for this had been the way to disswade them from , not to perswade them to the covenant . but i goe along with his re-examination , pag. 14. he explaineth himselfe and me thus , he should have said that i advised the parliament to lay no burthen of government upon them whom he this commissioner thinks church-officers , then had hee spoken true ; i thank him for his explanation . and i pray who were the church officers , whom i said hee excluded from church government ? were they not pastors and ruling elders ? and doth not himselfe think these to be church-officers ? yes , of the ministers he thinks so , but of ruling elders he seemes to doubt , except they be magistrates . well but excluding these church-officers from church-government he takes with the charge . why seeks he a knot in the rush ? but now , how doth he explaine himselfe ? he will have the parliament to bee church-officers ( of which before ) and such church-officers as shall take the corrective part of curch-government wholy into their own hands ; yet not to dispence the word and sacraments , but to leave the doctrinall part to the ministry , and their power to be meerely doctrinall as he saith , pag. 11. thus you have his explanation . but doth this salve the violating of the covenant ? nay , it makes it more apparent ; for the government of the church , which the first article of the covenant speaks of , is distinguished from the doctrinall part , that we shall endeavour the reformation of religion in the kingdomes of england and ireland in doctrine , worship , discipline , and government . so that excluding pastors and ruling elders from the corrective part of government , and from all power which is not meerely doctrinall , he thereby excludeth them from that discipline and government which the covenant speaks of , as one speciall part of the reformation of religion . come on to the reasons . i had given foure reasons : he takes notice but of three . this is the second time he hath told three for foure , yet even these three will doe the businesse . 1. the extirpation of church-government is not the reformation of it ; here the brother addeth these words following as mine , which are not mine , therefore he that finds no church-government , breaks his covenant . his reply is , we must reforme it according to the word of god : if that hold out none , here is no failing . he addeth a simile of a iury sworn to enquire into the felony of an accused person , but findes nor guilty : and of three men taking an oath to deliver in their opinions of church-government ( where by the way he lets fall , that i hold the nationall synod to be above all courts in the kingdom ; which if he meane of ecclesiasticall courts , why did he speak so generally ? if he meane above all or any civill courts , it is a grosse calumny . ) but now if this be the sense ( which he gives ) of that first article in the covenant , then 1. all that is in the second article might have been put into the first article ; for instance , wee might in mr colemans sense , have sworn to endeavour the reformation of prelacy , and even of popery it selfe , according to the word of god and the example of the best reformed churches : that is , taking an oath to deliver in our opinions of these things , according to the word of god , and to enquire into the evills of church-government by archbishops , bishops , deans &c. whether guilty or not guilty . i strengthned my argument by the different nature of the first and second article ; i said , the second article is of things to be extirpated , but this of things to be preserved and reformed . why did hee not take the strength of my argument and make a reply ? 2. by the same principle of his we are not tied by the first article of our covenant to have any either doctrine or worship , but only to search the scriptures , whether the word hold out any ; for doctrine , worship , discipline and government goe hand in hand in the covenant . 3. his owne simile hath this much in it against him . if a iury sworn to enquire into the felony of an accused person , should after such an oath , not only finde the person not guilty , but further take upon them to maintain that there is no such thing as felony ; surely this were inconsistent with their oath . so he that sweares to endeavour the reformation of religion in doctrine , worship , discipline , and government , and yet will not only dislike this or that forme of government , but also hold that there is no such thing as church-government , he holds that which cannot agree with his oath . 4. this answer of mr colemans , leaving it free to debate whether there be such a thing as church-government , being his only answer to my first argument from the covenant , must needs suppose , that the government mentioned in the covenant ( the reformation whereof we have sworne to endeavour ) is understood even by himselfe , of church-officers , their power of corrective government ; it being the corrective part only , and not the doctrinall part , which he casts upon an uncertainty whether the word hold out any such thing . 2. church-government is mentioned in the covenant as a spirituall , not a civill thing . the matters of religion are put together , doctrine , worship , discipline and government . the priviledges of parliament come after in the third article . the reverend brother replies , what if it be ? therefore the parliament is not to meddle with it , and why ? and here he runs out against me , as if i held that the parliament is not to meddle with religion ; an assertion which i abominate . princes and magistrates their putting off themselves all care of the matters of religion , was one of the great causes of the churches mischiefe , and of popish and prelaticall tyranny . but is this just and faire , sir , to give out for my opinion , that for which you are not able to shew the least colour or shadow of consequence from any thing that ever i said ? that which was to be replied unto , was , whether doe not the materials of the first article of the covenant differ from the materials of the third article of the covenant ? or whether are they the same ? whether doth the priviledge of parliament belong to the first article of the covenant ? whether is that government mentioned in the first article , a civill thing or a spirituall ? if civill , why is discipline and government ranked with doctrine and worship , and all these mentioned as parts of the reformation of religion ? if spirituall , then why doth the brother make it civill or temporall pag. 11. to all this nothing is answered : but , what if it bee ? then is my argument granted . and to put it yet further out of question , i adde other two arguments from that same first article of the covenant . one is this ; in the first part of that first article we sweare all of us to endeavour the preservation of the reformed religion in the church of scotland in doctrine , worship , discipline , and government : where all know that the words discipline and government ( especially being mentioned as two of the principall things in which the reformed religion in that church doth consist ) signifie church-government , and church-discipline , distinct both from doctrine and worship , and from civill government ( which , by the way , how mr coleman endeavoureth to preserve , i will not now say , but leave it to others to judge : ) therefore in that which immediately followeth , our endeavouring the reformation of religion in the kingdoms of england and ireland in doctrine , worship , discipline and government ; the words discipline and government must needs be understood in the same sense thus farre , that it is a church-discipline , and a church-government distinct from the civill power of the magistrate , and distinct also from doctrine and worship in the church ; for we cannot make these words discipline and government in one and the same article of a solemn oath and covenant , to suffer two senses differing toto genere , ( especially considering that the civill government is put by it selfe in another article which is the third ) unlesse we make it to speak so as none ▪ may understand it . the other argument which i now adde , is this ; in the third part of that first article we sweare that we shall endeavour to bring the churches of god in the three kingdoms to the nearest conjunction and uniformity in religion , confession of faith , forme of church government , directory for worship and catechising ; where 1. church government doth agree generically with a confession of faith , directory of worship , and catechising : i mean all these are matters of religion , none of them civill matters . 2. it is supposed there is such a thing as church government distinct from civill government ; and therefore it is put out of all question , that so farre there shall be an uniformity between the churches of god in the three kingdoms ( and otherwise it were an unswearing of what was sworn in the first part of that article ) but it tieth us to endeavour the nearest conjunction and uniformity in a form of church government ; which were a vaine and rash oath , if we were not tied to a church government in generall , and that as a matter of religion . 3 the uniformity in a form of church-government which we sweare to endeavour , must needs be meant of corrective government , it being clearly distinguished from the confession of faith , and directory of worship . so that mr colemans distinction of the doctrinall part , and of the dispensing of the word and sacraments cannot here help him . from these two arguments ( beside all was said before ) i conclude , that the covenant doth undeniably suppose and plainely hold forth this thing as most necessary and uncontrover●able , that there ought to bee a church-government which is both distinct from the civill-government , and yet not meerely doctrinall . and if so , what apollo can reconcile mr colemans doctrine with the covenant ? and now i go on . my last reason formerly brought was this : will the brother say that the example of the best reformed churches leadeth his way . for the covenant tieth us to a reformation of the government of the church both according to the word of god , and the example of the best reformed churches : that , as regula regulans : this , as regula regulata , the reverend brother replieth : 1. the best reformed church , that ever was , went this way , i meane the church of israel . answ. 1. is the church of israel one of the reformed churches which the covenant speakes of ? 2. was the church of israel better reformed than the apostolicall churches ? why then cals he it the best reformed church that ever was ? 3. that in the jewish church , there was a church-government distinct from civill government , and church censures distinct from civill punishments , is the opinion of many who have taken great paines in the searching of the jewish antiquities ; and it may be he shall heare it ere long further proved both from scripture , and from the very talmudicall writers . 2. i desire ( saith he ) the commissioner to give an instance in the new testament of such a distinction ( civill and church government ) where the state was christian . answ. i desire him to give an instance in the new testament of these three things , and then he will answer himselfe . 1. where was the state christian ? 2. where had the ministery a doctrinall power in a christian state ? 3. where doth the new testament hold out , that a church government distinct from civill government may be where the state is not christian , and yet may not be where the state is christian ? shall the churches liberties be diminished , or rather increased where the state is christian ? in the third and fourth place , the brother tels us of the opinions of gualther , bullinger , erastus , aretius . the question is of the examples of churches , not of the opinions of men . but what of the men ? as for that pestilence that walketh in darknesse through london and westminster , erastus his booke against beza , let him make of it what he can , it shall have an antidote by and by . in the meane while he may take notice that in the close of the sixth book erastus casts down that which he hath built , ●ust as bellarmine did in the close of his five books of justification . but as for the other three named by the brother , they are ours , not his in this present controversie . gualther expounds the fifth chapter of 1 cor. all along of excommunication , and of the necessity of church discipline , in so much that he expounds the very delivering to satan ( the phrase most controverted by erastus and his followers ) of excommunication ; and the not eating with the scandalous , v. 9 , 10 , 11. hee takes also to import excommunication . hee thinks also that ministers shall labour to little purpose , except they have a power of government . bullinger is most plaine for excommunication , as a spirituall censure ordained by christ : and so he understands , matth. 18. 17. aretius holds , that god was the authour of excommunication in the old testament , and christ in the new . and now , are these three master colemans way ? or doth not his doctrine flatly contradict theirs ? peradventure he will say , yet there is no excommunication in the church of zurik ( where those divines lived ) nor any suspension of scandalous sinners from the sacrament . i answer , this cannot infringe what i hold , that the example of the best reformed churches maketh for ▪ us , and against him ▪ for first , the booke written by lavater , ( another of the zurike divines ) de ritibus & institutis ecclesiae tigurinae , tels us of divers things in that church , which will make the brother easily to acknowledge that it is not the best reformed church : such as feastivall daies , cap. 8. that upon the lords daies before the third bell , it is published and made knowen to the people , if there be any houses , fields or lands to be sold , cap. 9. they have no fasts indicted , ibid. nor psalmes sung in the church , cap. 10. responsories in their letany at the sacrament , the deacon upon the right hand saith one thing , the deacon upon the left hand saith another thing , the pastor a third thing , cap. 13. 2. yet the church of zurike hath some corrective church government , besides that which is civill or temporall , for that same booke , cap. 23. tells us that in their synods , any minister who is found scandalous or prophane in his life , is censured with deposition from his office , ib officio deponitur . then followes , finita censura , singuli decani , &c. here is a synodicall censure , which i finde also in wolphius a professor of zurike . and the book before cited , cap. 24. * tells us of some corrective power committed to pastors and elders . which elders are distinguished from the magisteates . 3. the zurike divines themselves looked upon excommunication as that which was wanting through the injury of the times , the thing having beene so horribly abused in popery , and the present licentiousnesse abounding among people , did hinder the erecting of that part of the church discipline at that time . but they still pleaded the thing to be held forth in scripture , and were but expecting better times for restoring and setting of excommunication , which they did approve in genevah and in other reformed churches , who had received it . i give you their owne words for the warrant of what i say . i have beene the longer upon this point , as being the chiefe objection which can bee made by master coleman concerning that clause in the covenant , the example of the best reformed churches . hee hath onely one thing more , which may well passe for a paradox . hee will take an instance foresooth , from genevah it selfe , though presbiterian in practice . and why ? because in the genevah annotations upon , mat. 9. 16. it is said that , the externall discipline is to be fitted to the capacity of the church . this is no scotland presbytery , saith the brother . nay sir , nor yet genevah presbytery , for it doth not at all concerne presbytery . it is spoken in referrence to the chooseing of fit and convenient times for fasting and humiliation ; that as christ did not at that time tie his disciples to fasting , it being unsutable to that present time , so other like circumstances of gods worship which are not at all determined in the word , are to bee accommodated to emergent occasions , and to the churches condition for the time : which both scotland and genevah , and other reformed churches doe . if i have now more fully and convincingly spoken to that point of the covenant , let the brother blame himselfe that put me to it . the lord guide his people in a right way , and rebuke the spirit of error and division , and give us all more of his spirit to lead us into all truth , and into all selfe-deniall : and grant that none of his servants be found unwilling to have the lord jesus christ to reigne over them in all his ordinances . finis . faults in the printing . page 3. line 20. primitive , r. punitive , ib. l. 24. be r. he p. 8. l. 23. admiration , r. administration , p. 11. l. 6. he had , r. i had , p. 16. l. 10. revileth , r. resileth . p. 17. l. 17. being r. been , p. 21. cyrell r. cyrill . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a86004e-230 gualther archetyp ▪ in ● cor ▪ 5. 5. decrevi impurum hunc t●ad●ndum esse satanae , id est ●jiciendum ex ecclesia , &c ratio locution●s quia extra e●cl●siam ●atan regnat . in ver. 6 . ●●a ve●o in nuit disciplinam necessariam esse , ne contagiu● peccan●i se●p●t . in ver. 9. 10 , 11. catalogus eorum qui debent excomm●n ca●i , ibid. ●mo non su●●i●iunt ministri nisi publica authoritate juven●ur . idco paulus corint●io● tam 〈…〉 m●net , ut ecclesiae disciplinam instaurent , & sermentum omne expurgent . in ver. 13. tollite , &c. si christiani es●is si ecclesiam vul●is ●abere purem , utin ini jure ve●l●o . billinger in 1 ▪ cor. 5. v. 3 , 4 , 5 v●ri ergo apostolici & ve●re● quoque contum●ces & ecclesiastica ●●ns●● a digno●● co●●ubernio sanctorum a●jeceru●t , excl●den●e●●os à s●●ris 〈…〉 & communione c●rporl● & sangui●●● mysti●● . and a little after , quod sihis quoque addas ordinationem christi ex math●● , vide●is eam huc quoque specta●e , ut publi●è mulc●●tur quisp●●tis 〈…〉 in honest● per●exeri● vivere . esse enim e●●●icum & publi●●●um , est 〈…〉 è catalogo ecclesi●s●ico & recen●●ri haberique inter ●●cino●osos quibus nihil neque o●●icii , ●eque sinceri ●u●ò commi●●as . aret. theol. probl. loc. 133. a deo originem habit , & a christ● confirmata fuit . and after , supra de origine dixi , indicans ●●●o in●i●tam suisse ●anc disciplinam , &c. demum christus filius dei tandem ecclei●●u● commendavit . wolphius com . in li . esdrae pag. ●1 . atque hoc exemplo veteris testamenti discimus quid facto opus sit in n●vot nempe ut crebris synodis ac censuris , in vocationem in doctriuam , in vitam aec mores ecclesiastarum inspiciatur . * in ecclesiis 〈◊〉 tigurinae , deligantur seniores , qui un● cum pastore vitia corrigant . postea magistratus de 〈…〉 blasphemis , 〈…〉 s●mi● . bullinger in 1. cor. 5. et hac tenus de castigatione sceler●i ecclesiastica . hic tamen diligenter admoni●os ●olo fraires , vigilent , & omni diligenti● curent , ut salviare hoc pharmacum , è caetu sanctorùm pontificis avaritia eliminatum , reducatur , hoc est ut scelera offendentia plectantur . hic enim unicu● est excommunicationis fini● , ut mores excolautur & floreant sancti , prophani ve●ò coerceantur , ne mal● porro impudentia ac impietate grass●tur . nostram est ista ● fratres , summa cum diligentia curare . videmus enim & paulum cess●ntes hoc loco incicare . aretius ubi supra . magistratu● jugum non admittunt , timen● honoribus , licentium amant &c. vulgus quoque & plebs d●ssolutio● : major pars corruptissima est , &c. int●●●● non 〈◊〉 esse 〈◊〉 ●ateor dabit posterior aetas tructabiliores for●● anima● , minor● pectora , quam nostra habent seculas lavater in nehem . homil. 52. quia pontifices romani excommunicatione ●…endum ●suam tyrannidem abusi sunt , factum est ut nulla ferè justa discipl●na amplius in ecclesiis jnstitui possit nisi autem sl●g ●i●si coerceantur , omnia ruant in pejus necesse est . the schismatick sifted. or, the picture of independents, freshly and fairly washt-over again. wherein, the sectaries of these times (i mean, the principall seducers to that dangerous and subtile schisme of independency) are with their own proper pensils, and self-mixed colours, most lively set forth to be a generation of notorious dissemblers and sly deceivers. collected (for the most part) from undeniable testimonies under their own hands, in print; for the more fair and full satisfaction, and undeceiving of moderate and much misled christians; especially by the outward appearance of their piety of life, and a pretence of their preaching sound-doctrine. / by john vicars. vicars, john, 1579 or 80-1652. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a95897 of text r200902 in the english short title catalog (thomason e341_8). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 139 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 26 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a95897 wing v326 thomason e341_8 estc r200902 99861523 99861523 113660 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a95897) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 113660) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 55:e341[8]) the schismatick sifted. or, the picture of independents, freshly and fairly washt-over again. wherein, the sectaries of these times (i mean, the principall seducers to that dangerous and subtile schisme of independency) are with their own proper pensils, and self-mixed colours, most lively set forth to be a generation of notorious dissemblers and sly deceivers. collected (for the most part) from undeniable testimonies under their own hands, in print; for the more fair and full satisfaction, and undeceiving of moderate and much misled christians; especially by the outward appearance of their piety of life, and a pretence of their preaching sound-doctrine. / by john vicars. vicars, john, 1579 or 80-1652. [8], 41, [1] p. printed for nathanael webb, and william grantham, at the grey-hound in pauls church-yard., london: : 1646. annotation on thomason copy: "june 22th". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng sects -england -early works to 1800. congregationalism -early works to 1800. church polity -early works to 1800. great britain -church history -17th century. a95897 r200902 (thomason e341_8). civilwar no the schismatick sifted. or, the picture of independents, freshly and fairly washt-over again.: wherein, the sectaries of these times (i mea vicars, john 1646 22799 21 0 0 0 0 0 9 b the rate of 9 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the b category of texts with fewer than 10 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-06 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-06 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-11 elspeth healey sampled and proofread 2007-11 elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the schismatick sifted . or , the picture of independents , freshly and fairly washt-over again . wherein , the sectaries of these times ( i mean , the principall seducers to that dangerous and subtile schisme of independency ) are with their own proper pensils , and self-mixed colours , most lively set forth to be a generation of notorious dissemblers and fly deceivers . collected ( for the most part ) from undeniable testimonies under their own hands , in print ; for the more fair and full satisfaction , and undeceiving of moderate and much misled christians ; especially by the outward appearance of their piety of life , and a pretence of their preaching sound-doctrine . by john vicars . for sions sake , i cannot hold my peace . isaiah , 62. 1. now i beseech you , brethren , mark them which cause divisions and offences , contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned , and avoid them . for , these , that are such serve not our lord jesus christ , but their own belly ; and by good words and fair speeches , deceive the simple . rom. 16. 17 , 18. london : printed for nathanael webb , and william grantham , at the grey-hound in pauls church-yard . 1646. to the right honourable , and most worthily to be highly honoured thomas adams , esquire ; lord major of the most famous and renowned city of london ; i. v. prayeth all encrease of gracious honour , here and of glorious happinesse , hereafter . right honourable : it was the sad and unhappy complaint of the prophet jeremy in his dayes , and in that ungracious and ungratefull city , jerusalem ; that no man among them was valiant for the truth . jer. 9. 3. nay , the lord himselfe , by the same prophet , seeming to be , as it were , transported with holy indignation and just jealousie of neglect of his honour , and worship , bids them run to and fro through the streets of jerusalem , to see and seek if they could find any one man that loved the truth . jer. 5. 1. yea , this penury of pious men was not only among the poor and mean men , ver. 4. but even among the great men and rulers of jerusalem , ver. 5 but , ô the honour and happinesse of this most famous , faithfull and ever renowned city of london ! this city of our god , of which ( most justly ) so many glorious things are , and may , and must be spoken , to the glory of god , and honour thereof ! over which , such a renowned and religious , such a valiant and vertuous governour is set ( verifying that of the prophet , nah. 2. 3. ( though there , iconfess , spoken in another sense : ) that our valiant men are in scarlet , even your good lordship , who have bin , as it were , purposely placed and appointed by god himselfe for these times ; and who are so valiant and couragious for the truth of your god , and the glorious work of gospell reformation , as cannot be dampt or daunted with any vaporous and seeming eclipsing clouds of unworthy disgusts raised by the selfish and elfish envy of schismaticall spirits , which of late have , only , passed over the faire face and cleer sun-shine of your honours piety and integrity ; for with unvanquishable valour and vigour of zeal for god and his truth , ( like a pious patriot , indeed ) your honour hath most gravely and graciously dispell'd them all , standing still , like an immoveable , invincible , and impregnable rock ; or rather running on , like the active sun in the firmament with so much the more resplendent beauty , and radiant lustre , in a sweet and swift course of constant piety and magnanimity , for the advancement of the immaculate cause of your god , and the common-wealth , to the high honour of god , and singular joy and comfort of all the true presbyterian saints and sons of our english sion , both in city and country . ride on prosperously , then , ( my most honourable good lord , ) in the cause of truth and righteousnesse , backt with the sacred suffrages and faithfull affections of very many thousands of most peaceable honest-hearted and god-honouring covenanters , both in city and country , yea , even of a whole nation of loyall and loving scottish-brethren , who , with us , most justly look for and long for the happy and holy consummating of a glorious reformation of the kingdoms grievances , and establishment of a blessed church-discipline , according to the minde of our great master christ jesus , and the plain literal meaning of our sacred solemne covenant . and hence ( my honourable good lord ) i have bin humbly bold ( emboldened by your honours much experienced candor and courtesie toward me , the meanest and most unworthy of all your lordships votaries ) to dedicate this little , but , i hope , very necessary and usefull treatise ( considering these seducing staggering and unstable-times ) as a small symbol , and though poore and plain , yet true tessera of my bounden gratitude , to your honours pious patronage : thus , i say , both , to take fit occasion to manifest my obliged hearts thankfulnesse for your lordships many most free and friendly favours ; as also , by this , though succinct , yet sincere discovery of the sly and subtile dissemblers and deceivers of our dayes , and consequently the mayn molesters and disturbers of the happy settlement of a godly church-government among us ; as also thus to adde , at least , one small stick to encrease the flame ( though i am confident i need not ) of your good lordships godly zeale in this glorious work , so much and so maliciously opposed by the impious and impudent sectaries of these most sadly distracted times . which , humbly hoping your honour will with accustomed christian candor , and exuberant friendly favour , candidly accept ; the continued , yea perpetuated encrease of all honour and happinesse to your good lordship , in this your renowned majoralty , and to the period of your pious pilgrimage , shall be the daily devoted prayers of your honours most humble and eve● to be commanded , observant servant in the lord , john vicars . to the godly and impartiall reader . the great dishonour ( good reader ) which i have frequently observed to be done to my god , in the abuse of his truth ; and the strange cockering of errours and schismes , by truths too violent and virulent adversaries and antagonists : together with the familiar vilifying and extream undervaluing of truths loyall presbyterian propugnators , and the most unreasonable high esteeme and loud and lofty elogies which the foolish world falsly and fondly blatters forth in prayse of schismaticall independents , and the rest of these times most seditious and dangerous sectaries , whose great ( and yet most just ) unhappinesse it is , that they cannot mayntain any thing ( for the most part ) of what they schismatically professe , but by grosse untruths , brainsick enthusiasmes , fictitious new-lights , aliàs , old-blasphemous errours , and too often by down-right-lyes . all these respects , i say , have made mee ( the meanest and most unworthy of ten thousand of my godly presbyterian-brethren ) in fervent zeal to god and his truth , and in pure love and loyalty to her faithfull presbyterian friends , thus ( according to my talent ) to set pen to paper , and ( with as much faithfulnesse as resolved freedome ) with their own hands to stop the mouths , and with their own pens to give a check to the untrue tongues of these so high pretenders to such soundnesse in doctrine , and integrity of life and conversation , as they themselves and their schismaticall scycophants do most frothily and falsly brag and boast them to be . and although i doe ( as i must ) make account , herein , to passe through bad report , as well as good report for this my pains : yet , so i may bring any honour to god , and his most precious truth , and adde ( though but a mite of zeale ) toward the just vindication ( which i have in some measure , in this treatise endevoured ) of my reverend good friend , because truths fast friend , i mean , learned and religious mr. edwards , in his christian faithfulnesse and godly fervour ( especially in his learned and elaborate antapologie , that invincible weapon , which hath given our independent sectaries such an incurable wound as they will never be able to claw off or heal up ) against these truths most crafty and calumniating adversaries ; yet notwithstanding , i say , i passe or care not ( having , i praise my god , that murum aheneum , the testimony of a good conscience within me ) for all the false and flashy slanders , that any , or all of them can strugle to asperse and spatter mee with . however , beseeching the lord that this my poore and honest labour may produce so much good , as either to open the eyes of some pious and plain-hearted seduced-ones ( as , many such , i am verily perswaded , are among them , who heartily desire to know and love the truth ) if it be the lords good pleasure ; or , at last to stablish and confirme the hearts of those that already , really and cordially love the truth and peace , and heartily hate schisme and disorderly confusion , i rest , thine to serve thee in the lord jesus ; john vicars . the names of the five pious apologists , principally mentioned in this treatise . master thomas goodwin . philip nye . william bridge . jeremiah burroughs . sidrach simpson . the names of the seven religious remonstrants , mainly also mentioned , in this work . master william greenhill . thomas goodwin philip nye . william bridge . jeremiah burroughs . sydrach simpson . william carter . together with divers other heads of the independent faction . the schismatick sifted . having , not long since , dilucidated and plainly painted forth , to the sight of all ( in my picture of independency ) the basis or ground of that , as unhappy , as unholy-schisme of independency , to be spirituall-pride , self-seeking , and most grosse ingratitude to god and man : and having of late , and long time indeed , had many sad and serious thoughts , what should be the reason of the so constant and great growth of all-sorts of sectaries among us , which , as the superstructure , on that triple-foundation , have ( according to our old proverb , too true at this time , ill weeds grow apace ) mightily increased , and grown marvellous rife and ranke in the garden of god ( for want of serious and seasonable weeding ) to the great endangering , choking and stifling of the holy and wholsome herbs and flowers of unity , true peace and piety ; at last i found by sad and bad experience , that beside the great want of care and sedulity in the gardiners and guardians ( under god ) of his garden , the church , faithfully and effectually to weed and dresse it , i mean , through the strange impunity and intolerable toleration of sectaries and schismaticks , so out-facingly to flourish and sprout out among us ) beside this , i say , satan that old serpentine-seducer , had made use of an old sly stratagem of his , herein , to wit ; that those pernicious weeds should grow-up , and shoot-forth exceeding like unto most sweet and fragrant flowers and wholsome herbs , whereas , indeed , upon proof and experience , being used and smelt unto , they were nothing so , but , contrariwise , exceeding bitter , bad , poysonous and unwholsome . but , to speak plain-english ( for , since they so crave and cry-out for liberty of conscience , to do what they list , unjustly : i hope it is much-more lawfull for mee to desire liberty or freedome of speech , ( to speak nothing but truth plainly and honestly ) and to leave allegoricall expressions , and ( if it be lawfull in these doubling days ) to call a spade a spade , which i am resolved to do , yet with all possible christian moderation and godly temper that may be , considering the subject i write of ; i find , i say , that the two mayn stratagems which sathan useth , at this time , to cheat & deceive the world , yea , even many of the truly godly-party ; indeed , and to cause all sorts of schismes and errours thus to increase and multiply among us , i mean , especially , that most sly and subtile ( and therefore the most dangerous ) schisme of independency ; the two mayn stratagems , i say , for the more uncontroulable propagation hereof , are ; first , a popular appearance and outward habit of holinesse , ( if there be any more , i beseech them to let us see it by integer practice ) of life and conversation ; for , come and talk with any of our moderate ( if not neutrall ) or tender-conscienced even presbyterians , who ( many of them ) stand , as it were , on tip-toe , wavering which way to stand or fall , and ask them how it comes to passe , and possibly can be , that seeing these independents , anabaptists , &c. broach , and preach and practise such dangerous opinions and unwarranted church-ways ( as they call them ) to the great distraction and disturbance of the godly peace and tranquility both of church and state , when we have given them cleer demonstrations from the fountain of truth it self , that their ways and opinions are not according to christ and scripture-grounds ; yet , still , there answer is , o , i dare not but think and speak well of them , and hold them to be good christians , because they walk so holtly and religiously ; and also ( say they , in the second place ) because they preach and teach as sound doctrines as any of our presbyterian-ministers . and thus , i say , upon these two hinges turns the door of independents growing hopes of impunity , and a continued good opinion , even , i say , among our own presbyterian party , whereby , doubtlesse , they are greatly mistaken in them , and , i feare , grosly gulled by them , and , so , wrong the truth , in countenancing and encouraging her enemies , and retarding the work of reformation . for a briefe answer to both which ; though i intend not to enter into a polemicall dispute of these things ( which , i know would prove as endlesse as fruitlesse , especially with them who are familiarly known to love to live , salamander-like , in the fire of hot and heady disputes ) yet , i trust , by gods gracious assistance to give the godly , judicious and impartiall readers such pregnant proofs and demonstrative and reall testimonies ( and that briefly too ) of the exceedingly to be feared falsity and great mistake of both these , in our independents and their brother-sectaries , that they must in conscience , certainly , confesse the invalidity and weaknesse of their opinions and assertions of them , and see and say , that they are , surely , mistaken in them , and palpably deceived by them . to begin , then with the last of these first ; whereas it is pretended by some of our own , that they dare not but speak and think well of independents , because ( as they say ) they preach as sound-doctrines as any of the best-presbyterians doe : hereunto i answer , first , in generall ; that although i deny not , but that oftentimes they preach sound-doctrine ; yet , they frequently intermix much of their own unsavoury and unfound leven of false-opinions , together with the sound-doctrines , which they deliver . witnesse , that vehement , pernicious , yea even most damnable plea for a toleration of all opinions and liberty of conscience , the high-way to ruinate and destroy all religion and conscience ; together with their most ungodly inveighing against , both in pulpits and presses , that godly church-discipline , which is regulated , as neere as may be , by gods sacred word , and the pattern of the best and most purely reformed churches in europe ; and only crying-up a most licentious , unlimited and independent-destructive government of their own ungrounded invention ; whereby ( by a cleere and undeniable necessary-consequence ) they most undiscreetly , yea , irreligiously-endevour to overthrow and utterly , i say , to ruinate all sound-doctrine and pure truth it self . for , as it cannot be denied by any that the word of god soundly preached , and the sacraments purely administred , are gods field of corn , his precious vineyard , his garden of fragrant flowers and wholsome herbs ; and , as , a wise gardiner , or provident husbandman or vine-dresser , when he hath planted a garden or vineyard , or sown a corn-field , presently takes care to build a wall , or make a strong fence or hedge about the same , to preserve them from hurtfull beasts ; which otherwise would break-in , destroy the flowers or grapes , and root up and utterly spoyle the good corn : so ( although in the first place , it must be most justly granted , as i said before , that sound-doctrines , and the sacraments rightly administred , are the garden of god , and do contein the body and substance of soul-saving-truth , as being the fountain and foundation thereof ; yet ) it is as true , that godly-order , and scripture-discipline , or church-government is the hedge , wall , or strong-fence , which god , the most prudent and provident gardiner or husbandman , of this his pretious , garden , vineyard , or field of corn , hath planted and built round about the same , both to keep in safety and security the specious and pretious flowers , herbs , corn , and grapes , for the pious professours of his word and truth to be nourisht , cherisht and fed by them to eternall-life ; and thus to keep out the noysome and hurtfull wild-beasts and boars of the forrest , ( i mean , all sorts of tyrannizing misbelievers , hereticks , papists , and prophane atheists ) and all crafty foxes , yea , even the little-foxes ( i mean , anabaptists , antinomians , independents , seekers , and such like libertines , ) who , otherwise , all of them ( this wall , hedge , or fence being pluckt up or taken away ) would soon run in , ruinate and root up and destroy the pretious corn , fragrant flowers , and tender grapes thereof ; even utterly overthrow the fountain and foundation of sound-doctrine , and put in poyson of errours , and blasphemous and most dangerous , yea , damnable opinions and heresies among them , i say to the utter undoing and overthrow of the foundation or fountain , even of sound-doctrine and truth it selfe . this , i conceive , is a most faithfull and undeniable truth ; and ( though i know all sorts of sectaries will carp , snap and snarl at it ) shall therefore satisfie me , and may also , ( i think ) satisfie all other godly and moderate christians , who desire to be wise with sobriety ; but , if it will not , then to come to particulars , and so more closely to the point in hand . is not , to broach and preach that most wicked and accursed doctrine of toleration of all religions ( as i toucht before ) yea , of all heresies , errours , sects and schismes , under that slie , subtile , ungrounded and most ungodly pretext of liberty of conscience , forsooth , is not this , i say , a preaching of false-doctrine ? is not the broaching and preaching of the scripture , not to be the word of god ? of the performance of holy duties and expression of godly sorrow for sin , and penitent praying for forgivenesse of sin ; yea , and the performance of all these with an honest , humble , self-denying and christ-seeking broken-soul , to be called or counted no better than casting dirt ( as it were ) into gods face ? are not all these , my brethren , together with exceeding many more such like , yea , some far worse ( if it may be ) blasphemous and damnable doctrines and enormous opinions , set forth at large by reverend master edwards , in his gangraena , are not all these , i say , palpable preaching and broaching of false-doctrines ? and , if not all of them , yet many of them preached by our so admired independents ; and either few or none of all the rest , are at any time preached against ( nay are they not countenanced and encouraged ) by them ? wherefore , if any shall , still , object and say , that those forementioned dangerous opinions , and the rest related by master edwards are not the opinions of the more solid and temperate independents ; but , are the anabaptists , antinomians , and such like : i answer , they are moderate and most seeming solid independents which plead and preach mightily for toleration , and liberty of conscience , which , most directly are the inlets , open sluces , and wide-gaps for all the rest to rush and gush in amongst us ; and therefore , distinguish them as you please : and call them what you will , hereof i am most confident ; that though our most moderate and supposed most discreet independents may seem only in some things to differ and vary , and in their heads or brains ( as i may say ) to be somwhat distant from some of the rest of the dangerous sectaries ; yet are they all like sampsons foxes ) fast tyed by their tayls , with destructive firebrands of dissention , division , and confusion between them , to destroy ( as much as in them is ) the good-corn of gods-field , by their most ungodly struglings , studies , plots , and calumnies , to ruinate the wall , and pluck-up the hedge or safe fence , i mean ( as we all too sensibly feel at this day ) to hinder and oppose with all might and malice , power and policy , the settlement of the godly government and scripturall-discipline of our pious and peacefull presbyterians . and are these , now , the sound and orthodox men , that are so highly commended and blazoned abroad for their sincerity and soundnesse in doctrine ? who , thus dare , so boldly ( yet craftily , i confesse ) broach abroad such false doctrines , and thus preach and prate against gods most pure and soul-saving truths ? certainly , then , am i mightily mistaken . but , now , to come to the second or other main part of our own presbyterian friends common-plea for independents , & the other cause of their great growth amongst us , viz. their holines of life , which we have great ground and cause to feare , ( and more than to feare ) is but pretended and in appearance ; which , indeed , is , i say , the main thing i here intend to insist on , and principally to prove against them ( as i have promised ) and that , under their own hands , by most undeniable testimonies . and , herein , i shall first desire briefly to premise thus much by way of introduction to what is to follow ; namely , that this hath ever been ( even in all ages and times ) satans old-cloke , too well known to be almost worne quite thread-bare , by frequent and familiar use among deceivers . for if we look back to by-past times , and read ecclesiasticall histories , we shall most truly know , and unquestionably understand that those grand and grosse hereticks , and ring-leaders to dangerous and damnable heresies , errors , and schismes in the church of god , especially in the primitive churches , and former times , as arrius , pelagius , arminius &c. were all of them , men of extraordinary outward holy lives , and ( to see to ) of most integer conversation , even to generall admiration and approbation for their parts and piety , and to the singular love and liking of all the people among whom they then lived ; and yet they were , all of them , most notorious , dangerous , yea damnable hereticks . and look up also , even to our most blessed saviours time , and there we shall finde the scribes and pharisees to be outwardly , such demurely seeming saints ▪ such pure and holy persons to see to , that it was an universally received opinion , among all the common-people , the jews of those times , that if any two men in the world should goe to heaven and be saved , it was a scribe and a pharisee ; and yet , by our saviours own testimony , these were most notorious dissemblers , deceivers , and horrible hypocrites ; and , indeed , one main foul fault among them also , was , a most vile perverting of the law , to their own ayms and ends ; and teaching false-doctrines , and their own false glosses and intentions , in stead of sound-doctrine , which very thing made our blessed saviour himselfe to inveigh most bitterly against them as notorious hypocrites ; as is most evident in all the foure evangelists . the experience whereof also made the blessed apostle paul say ( having found false apostles in his times also , deceitfull-workers , transforming themselves into the apostles of christ ) that it was no marvail , for , satan , himselfe ( sayes he ) is transformed into an angel of light . and indeed there is very great politick reason hereof ; for , should not hereticks and schismaticks , first , put-on that brave embrodred-cloke of seeming holinesse , to dazle the eyes and understanding of their honest , innocent proselites ( as i believe many of these to be ) who i pray that had any light and sight of reason and religion , would so easily have received their so dangerous opinions , or damnable doctrines ? if satan should at first shew his cloven-foot , and the hornes on his head ( as fools , formerly , were made to believe the devill had such , to be frighted by them ) who , i say , would not , then fly from him , as , easily discerning him to be a devill ? so , i say , if heretical , erronious , & schismatical deceivers should at the very first shew the inside-danger & poyson of their aymes , plots , self-interests and designes intended by their heresies , errours , and schismes , who would so easily and instantly entertain them , and be so misled and abused by them ? therefore , dear christians take heed , for gods sake , of being taken with painted pretences of holinesse of life , in any man whatsoever he be : swallow not down , so easily , such gilded-pils ; or catching fish-hooks , which are onely covered-over with deceitfull baits to catch and undoe your poor plain-meaning soules . believe it , my christian friends , you try your mettalls by a very false and deceitfull touch-stone , if you look so on mens holy-lives and conversations alone ; nay , rather read , sound , and try men mainly and most especially by their soundnesse of doctrine ; for , if this fails , all is naught , i 'le warrant you . and that you may see 't is not mine , but the blessed apostle paul's judgement , and right rule of tryall , which cannot deceive , marke what he sayes , in two most pertinent places to this purpose . be yee followers of me , even as i also am of christ . no farther , or , no otherwise than i folow the lord jesus christ in sound doctrine and holinesse ; first and principally sound doctrine , and then holinesse : and to strengthen and back this to be his true meaning , indeed ; observe what this same blessed apostle , and faithfull servant of the lord sayes farther . there be some that trouble you , and would pervert the gospel of christ . but if either we ( even any of us apostles , though ever so holy ) or an angel from heaven ( for seeming sanctity or holinesse ) preach any other gospel ( or pretended truths ) than that which we have preached to you , let him be accursed to you . see here a time touch-stone , indeed , my friends , see first , to soundnesse of doctrine , without which , believe not nay , abominate , the seeming holiest men or angels , even angelicall-men that may pretend the greatest parts and piety that may be ; but having first , seen , by the right-rule , gods word , their doctrine to be sound , then , on gods name , search and see into their sanctimonie and integrity in life and conversation , and then you take the right way indeed , cordially to love and like , to follow , affect and imitate them . nay , i will bee bold to say and assure , and dare undertake to prove and justifie , by gods assistance , that , there is far more safety and sweetnesse for the soule to love and like , to follow and imitate , a christian or pastor , that is most sound and orthodox in doctrine and judgement , though subject to weaknesse : and humane infirmities : than him that seems to be most exact and strict in his outward walking and conversation , if he premeditately and invincibly ( against all perswasions and scripturall convictions ) goe on in the publike profession of errors and schismes ▪ destructive to the peace and edification of gods church and sound doctrine . but now without any farther digression ( having thus laid down these most necessary and pertinent premises ) i will by gods assistance come up close to the promised point , even our present main matter , touching the much boasted holines of life , of our independent sectaries , & shew how neer they come-up to down-right deceivers in their reall practice , testified , i say , by their own undeniable hand-writings . and , here , give me leave , good reader , in the first place for the better making fair way , and that , most briefly , for what follows ) to give unto thee , and from scripture it selfe , the perfect character , cognizance and description of a truly godly-man , a sure , pure saint , indeed , and sacred citizen of the new-jerusalem ; especially , in these two or three remarkable marks of him among divers others , viz. hee is such an one as speaks the truth from his heart ; and having thus spoken , promised , or sworn , keeps his promise , though to his own prejudice ; both these being fully and fairly connected and bound up together , in our blessed saviours most royall-law , and golden-rule : whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you , doe yee even so unto them : and then also , doe but consider herewith , what the spirit of the lord sayes , concerning the contrary practisers . he that loves or makes a lye , shall be shut out of the new jerusalem among dogs , sorcerers , whoremongers , murtherers , and idolaters . now , then , i say , if our independents be found ( and that by testimonies under their own hands ) to be such as speak not the truth from their hearts ; and when they have promised and covenanted , break their promise and violate their covenant ( witnessed , i say , by their owne hands against themselves ) yea , and that when as it could be no prejudice to their livelihood , or estates , save only ( perhaps ) to their ungodly private ends ; and such as do that to others , which they would not be content should be done to themselves : then can any truly-gracious or impartiall good-man choose but , at least , greatly feare that they are not so holy-saints & godly men as they should be , or as the world too vulgarly and easily takes them to be ? truly , me thinks , they cannot . thus , then , now , to come to the try all hereof ; and , here , i will , by way of preamble , tell the reader one pretty passage , not altogether impertinent to our present purpose , touching master peters & my-self , which briefly was this , i being occasionally ( about-half-ayeer since ) at westminster-hall , was there encountred by master peters , that most pragmaticall quicquid in buccam , &c. of whom i will only say this by the way , that , whosoever loves to laugh at a sermon ( which is satans musick ) let him go heare master peters preach . this gentleman seeing me singly walking in the hall , and being my old acquaintance , came unto me , together with his independent brother , master bachiler , who heard our conference all the while , which was this . o , master vicars ( says master peters ) certainly , a great deal of repentance must needs lye upon your soule . why , master peters ( said i ) what 's the matter , what have i done ? o ( sayes he ) in sadding and grieving the hearts of gods saints , as you have done in your book , which you call the picture of independency . why sir , ( said i ) pray tell me what 's amiss in it ? truly master vicars ( says hee ) 't is naught all over , ( just , like my self , he might have added ) naught all over . is it naught all over , master peters , said i ? then , i hope you have read it all over ; and if so ; then , i beseech you said i ) since , you know , dolosus versatur in generalibus , the deceiver loves to deale in generals , shew so much candor and ingenuity toward me , as to tell me one particular passage therein , which you can make evident to be false or naught , and i assure you ( said i ) i will yeeld you all the rest to be naught without any farther controversie ; whereunto , here was all his reply ; alas , master vicars 't is naught all over , naught all over ; which words he uttering in his old , quick blustering manner , instantly ran away swiftly from me , all , which , his brother bachiler can testifie ( if he will speake the truth ) to be most true , who stood by , and heard and saw all i have related , from the first to the last . and was not here , thinke you , a brave independent champion , fit to finde fault with other mens works , and then run away , when he should give account of his slanderous words ? but , now , to come to some more serious and sollid matter , and fully to make good and confirme what i have promised and affirmed , in the frontispice of this treatise , namely , that independents ( i meane very many of the best and bravest of them ) are a generation of notorious dissemblers , and sly deceivers . most sorry i am , the lord knows , that i can so truly ( indeed too truly ) say and assure these things against them ; but in regard of their so elated and selfe-flated conceit of themselves and others too-too high opinions of them ; and also the great injurie which gods cause receives thereby , many ways , therefore , for sions sake i cannot hold my peace , & for jerusalems sake i will not rest , until the righteousnes thereof ( and the unquestionable innocency & integrity of her presbyterians ) go forth as brightnesse . and for this end to add my poor mite of zeal ( what in me is ) to help to vindicate gods abused churches honour , against these her close and subtile enemies , who have made their great and gross untruths as so many satanicall stratagems and staulking horses , to abuse and disgrace even the godliest partie of the most innocent presbyterians , by thus suggesting and protesting their palpable untruths to the more moderate , indifferent , and too credulous presbyterians among us , whereas , themselves ( the lord knows ) are the main ( if not onely ) offensive and destructiue-partie , and all this , onely to uphold ( for ought that can , to this day , be discerned , to the contrary ) maintain and enlarge their too apparent spirituall-pride , and selfe-aymes and ends , which i conceive to be most vile and ungodly in them . and because master john goodwin , in his late supercilious and unsavorie treatise , entituled cretensis , pag. 5. sayes , that master edwards ( in his sectarystinging gangraena ) judges , so and so , onely of some few ( at least , as hee would have it ) of those that are the retrimentitious-party or dregs of the independents and other sectaries ( to use his own words and expression ) as if ( sayes he ) a man should judge of cheap-side , by the dirtie-channel that runs in the midst of it . i therefore , here ( omitting , purposely , the most notorious jugling of m. j. g. himself most properly & fitly termed cretensis ( that is to say a lyer ) both by himself , and by reverend m. edwards in his second part of his excellent gangraena ; and pretermitting also the most unworthy double-dealing of those two grandees of the independents , master burroughs and master greenhill ( and these are none , sure , of master goodwins retrimentitious partie ) in their unfaithfull dealing with master edwards , as hee hath most fully manifested to the world , against all these three , in his said second part of the gangraena , pag. 86 , 87 , 88 , &c. ) to omit these i say , as being so fully set forth as aforesaid , i will here in the first place shew to the godly and impartiall reader , diverse notable passages of some of the most eminent and highest prized independents , even of the five famous apologists , most cleerely setting forth , and that under their own hands , their most unfaithfull and deceitfull dealings with god and the world , and with their presbyterian-brethren . which i have extracted , and briefly culled-out from their so mightily magnified , and broadly bosted of apologeticall narration , attested and avouched under their own hands , of purpose ( as they , certainly , conceived and wee have justly deemed ) to paint out their own piety , and unspotted integrity to the world : whereas , contrariwise they have , thereby , even with their own pensils , blazoned abroad their own shame , and most unfaithfull double-dealing . first , then , i will begin with that poor delusive trick of theirs , of their pretended ( falsely so called ) exile or banishment out of england , which they themselves set forth in prima fronte libelli , in the very front and face of their apologie , to make the world take notice of that first and fair piece of their martyrdome , and to believe what rare suffering-saints and martyrs they were , insuffering , so sorely , for their tender-conscience sake . this you shall see apol. nar. pag. 2 & 3 where they tell you of their pitteous banishment , forsooth ; but , withall , fairely confesse it was a spontaneous or voluntary banishment , a banishment of their own choice and election , both for time , place , and company , ( and i may add , as easily undergone as undertaken ) for , they went into the choicest and fattest parts of all beautifull holland , no way pincht in body or purse ; for ( as reverend master edwards notes in his learned antapologie , and at large , most notably sets forth ) they were able ( some of them ) to spend two or three hundred pounds a year , and to doe other expensive acts besides . they went , i say , in their own time , were fitted with all conveniences for themselves and their families ; had brave company with them , gentlefolke of none of the meanest rank and quality ; and yet these call themselves gods poor exiles , or poor despicable , banished creatures : which , how fairly and fitly , let any godly judicious . christian , or even meer rationall creature which knows what banishment is , speake and judge by those forementioned premises . and now tell mee , good reader , whither these our independents be such fair dealers and truth speakers as the world deems them , and as the spirit of god would have them to be , according to the forementioned characters of the true saints and citizens of the new jeruselem . again , in their foresaid apologeticall narration , pag. 5 & 6 , they have these very words . for the congregations in england ( where , we were by the grace of christ converted , ( mark this ) and long exercised our ministry ) both in our own , and multitudes of the assemblies and parochiall-congregations thereof ( mark again those words good reader ) we make this sincere profession before god and all the world ( mark here again i beseech thee ) that notwithstanding all the defilements which we conceived to cleave to the true worship of god in them , or of the unwarranted power in church government exercised therein ; yet we ever esteemed and held this opinion of them , that they were the true churches and bodie of christ , and that the ministers thereof were true ministers , much lesse did it ever enter into our hearts to judge them antichristian : yea , wee always have protested that in these times ( pray marke these words well ) when the churches of england were most actually over-spread with defilements , and in the greatest danger thereof , we both did and would hold a communion with them , as the churches of christ , and baptized our children , and administred the lords supper in their parochiall congregations , and all this both before and since our returne from our foresaid exile . now , then , from all these premises , see and consider seriously , good reader , the independents most unjust and injurious separation from us , even under their own hands testified , and by such a deep and seeming-serious protestation , to god and the whole world protested against themselves ; wonderfull strange it is ( me thinks ) that truly , holy , and godly men should dare to deale thus , in so sacred and serious things ; nay those premises , touching our churches or congregations and ministers , being so granted by themselves , how most ungodlily and ungroundedly doe they now , and long time have forsaken our assemblies , as antichristian , and creep into corners , shops and chambers , and now adayes also some of their schismaticall brethren are not ashamed most impiously and most unjustly to preach , print , and prate against us and our assemblies directly under such notions , even as if we were abominable babylonians and antichristians . now truly my brethren , if this be to deale ingenuously , and to speake the truth from the heart , as becomes the truly godly saints and citizens of the new-jerusalem specified before to be davids character of a godly man , let any impartiall christian judge and determine . again , in the same apologeticall narration , pag. 24 & 25 , those five apologists and grandees of the independent faction , yea , those high-grown sauls that are taller then any of their presbyterian-brethren , by head and shoulders in parts and piety ( if we would believe the loud boasts of their sycophanticall proselites ) have these very words , in that foresaid place , evident to all that have eyes and understanding and wills , to see and read the same , viz. wee call god and men to witnesse , ( see how they here begin again with a deep asseveration ) that through the grace of christ , our spirits are , and have been so remote from a spirit of faction , division , pride , and singularity ( which are the usuall grounds of all schismes ) that we have expressed our constant forbearance , either to publish our opinions by preaching ( although wee had the pulpit free ) or to print any thing of our own or others for the vindication of our selves ( although the presses also were more free than the pulpits . ) marke good reader , i beseech thee , these their own words , and yet consider , how that most insolent and proud-spirited man mr. lilburn , in his most flashy and foul-mouthed letter , to ever to be honored mr. prinne , complains of the restraint of printers-presses , as a peece of their persecution forsooth , pag. 2 of his said letter ) or to act for our selves , or for our way . all these foresaid particular branches of their protested forbearance , were , indeed , by them , and the presbyterian city ministers mutually covenanted to be done on both sides , but how faithfully , religiously and conscienciously they have kept and observed the same , ( yea , notwithstanding their protesting before god and men , neither to write , preach , dispute , or any way to act for themselves or their church-way , and all this , thus promised , since their last returne into england , from their fore-mentioned pretty piece of banishment ) now we will see and discover , i say , how faithfully and fairly they have kept their word and engagement herein . although , 't is most true that learned and religious master edwards hath in his elaborate antapologie given his impartiall and unprejudiced reader aboundant satisfaction touching these things , and i might here multiply many testimonies from thence of our independents self-condemnation touching the premises : yet because i maynly endevour brevity in this little treatise , i will content my self with these few following most true and undeniable self-confutations extant there in print under their owne hands ; namely , that , even , not all these apologists ( who have thus protested , as yee have heard ) have not , according to their so deep protestation before god and men , forborn to preach or print any thing of their own in the behalf of their church-way . first , then , take master burroughs his self-conviction herein ; who , in his sermons and expositions on the three first chapters of hosea , hath preached and printed severall things about and for their church-way . as , for example ; in his first lecture on hosea the second , at , 1 , 2 p. 224 , 225. and the seventh lecture , hos. 1 , at , 11 , p. 173. and thirteenth lecture on hos. 2 , 15. together with many other places in those his lectures , now extant , in print . secondly , master simpson , another of these so deep protesters , as aforesaid ; in his sermon called reformations preservation , on isaiah 4 , 5. and on proverbs 8. 15 , 16. hath , there , many things for their church-way , and for a toleration , p. 25 , 26. 27. of those sermons . thirdly , also , master bridge , another of them , in his sermons , printed and published and entituled , babylons downfall ; and , that on zech. 1 , at 18 , 19 , 20 , & 21. together with many other , to be seen , in master edwards his most excellent antapol . afore-said ; but this truth being thus confirmed under the hands of three such eminent proofs and testimonies i think , it may give sufficient satisfaction herein ; besides , the very many other books and pamphlets . printed and reprinted for their church-way , since this parl. began , and since there covenant made to the contrary , all which for brevities sake , i say , and to avoid tediousnes , i willingly pretermit , and will not so much as mention , as , indeed , i need not , they being so notoriously known ( or may be known ) abroad to all that know ought herein . and as for their other kinds of acting , by themselves and others , in and for their church-ways advantage and advancement , i shall , i say , to avoid prolixity referre the reader , to the learned antapologie , p. 220 , 221 , &c. very worthy the reading for abundant cleer satisfaction in these premises . only i cannot forbeare to give thee one particular instance more hereof , which may ( mee thinks ) be instar omnium , to shew to the world their faithlesse craft and subtilty , yea , and most palpable double-dealing with their single-hearted presbyterian brethren , and thus , according to my promise , to let all men see ( that will not obstinately shut their eyes against such cleer and known truths ) what a godly-party and what holy-saints these independents are . the thing in brief , is this . about the beginning of the second yeer of the sitting of the parliament , the presbyterian pastors , in london , and the independents , met together , at reverend and religious master calamies house in aldermanbury , where , with mutuall consent , they all entred into an engagement one party to the other , that ( for advancing of the publike cause of a happy reformation ) neyther side should preach , print , or dispute , or otherwise act against others way ; and this to continue til both sides , in a full meeting , did declare the contrary , and by mutuall consent set each other at liberty , touching these things . and for the confirmation of this agreement , a writing or instrument was drawn , with full and cleer desire and assent of all , and also by all , there and then present , it was subscribed with every mans name ; and , this so done , was with a generall consent to be left , and so to abide , with master calamy , at his house , there to be seen at any time , by any of them that would have recourse unto it , to shew and see their agreement , all which was accordingly done , and this writing or instrument was left in master calamies custody . heere , now , let me hint this to the reader , by the way ; that , notwithstanding this writing or instrument of this their so solemne agreement ; no , nor their own fore-mentioned protestation of their own voluntary forbearance , so deeply ( but deceitfully ) professed and protested , in their apologie , to be so sacred unto them , & to be kept so strictly by them , with such deep silence ( for , these are their very words ) all these , i say , notwithstanding , they , in the interim , immediatly after , went on , in a too evident cōtrary practice , as hath bin before sufficiently declared ; and all these their protestations proved the most advantageous piece of policy , on their side , of any one that was , or could be done by them for the increasing of a party for them . just like the declarations set forth by king charles ( by means of the crafty bishops , in their late flourishing and domineering times ) that their should be no disputes , no preaching or printing on either side , for or against the arminian-points , which then were in great controversie : which declarations and inhibitions , being observed by many ministers , but not so , by the arminian-faction , was a mighty means to increase them , and to suppresse orthodox-doctrines . even so , i say , it fell out , heer , for , by this means of the agreement , nothing was preached or printed , or any way acted against their way , according to the foresaid agreement to hinder the growth of independents , on our side , ours making conscience most honestly and tenderly of their engagement . but , in the mean time , i say , many things were both preached and printed for it , as i have touched before ; which , if it were not apparent unfaithfulnesse and plain double-dealing , i know not what is . but now to come to this notable trick of theirs , acted by master philip nye , that notable independent-politician , and nimble-agent for their schismaticall church-way , which was this . the fore-mentioned writing or instrument of the mutuall agreement between the presbyterian and independent parties , being as aforesaid , left in the hands of reverend master calamy , by him to be kept and shewn and seen as occasion was offered ; it so fell out , that master nye came , one day , to master calamy , and pretended some reasons for his desire to see and borrow this writing of him for a little while ; whereupon , good master calamie , in his courtesie and singlenesse of heart , suspecting nothing amisse , but thinking he meant fairly , and would bring it again presently , as he had promised , let him have it . but he , after he had it , carried it away with him into yorkeshire , that so upon any complaints of the breach of the agreement when ours should have consulted with that writing , or shewn it against them , and brought their own hands subscribed thereunto , the writing was gone , and nothing now to shew against them ; as for conscience , they ( as it seem'd ) car'd not a rush for it ( no marvell , then , that they so cry out and plead for ( liberty of conscience ) for , this master nye hath ever since kept away this writing , and having been often intreated to restore it , his answer still hath been , that hee left it at hull among his other papers . this truth , is also fully related by reverend and faithfull master edwards , in his learned and most excellent independent frighting antapologie , and is backt also by the unquestionable testimony of our most grave and godly assembly of divines , in their most excellent answer to the seven independents most false and scandalous remonstrance , lately printed and published by the independents for the honour , forsooth of those seven authours thereof ; but which in the issue turned to their most just eternall , indelible dishonour . and are not these , then ( my deare presbyterian friends ) most soule blots and blemishes in so godly apartie , so gracious and holy saints , so cryed-up , rare christians , as independents are now a dayes hugely boasted to be ? doe these their practises , in word and deed answer to the characters of davids holy citizens of the new-jerusalem , to speake the truth from their hearts , and to keepe their promise though to their prejudice ? or , are they like our blessed saviours plain-dealing honest men , indeed , doing unto others , as they would bee done unto ? i know not , truly i cannot thinke they are . but to goe on , and to make their unfaithfull dealings , yet more evident and apparent to the whole world , and that , still , even under their own hands ; i shall now therefore , here , briefly add some few passages of their most gross double-dealing & unblushing slandering of the reverend and religious assembly of divines , in a most scandalous remōstrance of theirs touching a promised model of their new church way , most marvellously brag'd and boasted of , to be christs onely true and pure way of governing his church , and for the answerable production whereof they had been exceeding often and most earnestly urged and intreated , both by the reverend assembly , and by the religious pastors of london ; but , wherein all along from the first to this day they dealt most doubly , falsly and fallaciously . for even as at the first , when this often and urgent motion was made to them to bring in a modell of their church-government in writing to the assembly , & they accordingly promised it ; they were so far from faithfull performance hereof , first , that they secretly & sedulously had prepared printed , published & dedicated to the parliament their most proud , self-praysing ( & yet false ) apologetic all narration , never acquainting the assembly before-hand therewith , or tendring any writing of their church-government , to the assembly as they had promised , & in conscience ought to have done : just so , secondly , here , they again dealt with the reverend assembly ; for , wheras , stil the assembly earnestly moved them again and again ( for the surer and speedier composing of differences between them , and happier settlement of a blessed church government , so long and earnestly desired , as was hoped at least , by all ) that they would yet bring forth their modell of church-government ; yea , and since that also they had been earnestly importuned thereunto by master dury , a reverend , learned and godly minister of the hague in holland , ( as hath been testified by himselfe in a letter of his , sent to our assembly of divines , from the hague , march the seventh , 1643 , and extant in print , the substance whereof was to this effect . that he had oft required and intreated of these dissenting brethren , but never could obtein , to know the true points is difference , betwixt them and the other reformed churches . the like also had our london-ministers often desired but , could never , to this day , obtein their desire . but , now at length ( to come to the point ) with much fresh importunity , even almost beyond the bounds of modesty , they being thus urged , as it were , on all sides and not knowing how , with any credit , any longer to evade , they seemed ( now at last , i say ) to condescend to the thing ; and made choice of m. thomas goodwin to be the man that should manage the whole work of their promised modell ; to which purpose , hee also ( having undertaken the thing ) had for the space of at least six moneths , sequestred himself a part from his attendance on the assembly , and from his publike ministry , into the country , for his more conveniency to the work ; in which interim , ô what vaunts , brags and boasts had wee up and down by all their independent proselytes , what a rare new-modell was making , by m. thomas goodwin , and shortly to come forth , and all these brags , at least , three moneths before the famous upshot of all , and therefore great expectation was of it , on both sides , especially by all that were apt credulously to believe it , and all stood , as it were , gaping and gazing triumphantly , to see it . at last , about the end of the faid six moneths great and wonderfull expectation , that was rightly fulfilled , parturinnt montes nascitur ridiculus mus. for , in the issue of all , no modell could be produced , but instead thereof , they durst most ungodlily ( because most falsly ) and without all feare , or wit , or honesty ( as it may be feared ) exhibit to the assembly , a most absurd and scandalous apology or remonstrance , owned & subscribed by seven of their most eminent dissenting-brethren , which was afterward impudently printed and published ( and most craftily pretended to be so published clandestinely without the authours privity or consent ) under the name of a remonstrance ; both ( as they hoped ) to prop-up , if it be might be , the said authours crackt credit ; and also even perfidiously to dishonour and disgrace the whole right reverend assembly , if , i say , it had bin possible for them . in all this notwithstanding , both in their apologeticall narration , and in this their remonstrance , they seeme most seriously to professe and protest ( like cunning deceivers , indeed ) their integer carriage and honest meaning , in all the businesse , and their willingnesse and forwardnesse , always to make known what ever they held in church-government , together with their reasons , why , ( now , in the upshot of all ) they have not given in a modell of their church-government , laying the whole load ( just as our grandfather adam laid his offence upon god himself ) and the foul-fault of the only cause of their failing therein , upon the assembly of divines ; most shamelesly and falsly aspersing and bespattering the said reverend assembly , even all over ( in that remonstrance ) with very many intolerable slanderous accusations and imputations , false , i say , in every point and parcell of them ; as in the assemblies most excellent and abundantly satisfactory answer to the said remonstrance ( or reasons forsooth , of the independents or dissenting brethren ) lately set forth by authority of the honourable lords in parliament , may and doth most truly and abundantly appear . wherein pag. 4. they first prove the notorious unwillingnesse of these independents to make known what they hold in church-government , both from their own confession , in the forementioned apolog. narration , pag. penn'd and published by themselves , and also by the testimonie of reverend master durie aforesaid , as also of reverend and religious master apollonins , a learned divine of walachria , who also sent to the independents in london , an expresse letter , desiring them to informe him what their opinion was in those points , in difference betwixt them and the presbyterian-partie , that so he might not mistake them ( he being then appointed by the classis of walachria to set down the judgement of those reformed churches , concerning these controversies , now agitated with us in england ) but yet notwithstanding he could not obtain it from them , as himselfe hath complained , and as they themselves too well know , is most true against them . in brief , who ever desires most fully and exactly to see the falsity and notorious halting of that whole remonstrance and apologie of the independents , even all over , àcapite ad calcem ; let him seriously peruse that most full and fair answer of our learned , reverend , and religious assembly , and he shall receive abundant and most luculent satisfaction , both touching the assemblies most tender , fair and faithfull dealings with them all along ; and also touching the unquestionable truth of what i have herein writ of these unhappie independents , viz. their most unreasonable and irreligious slandering of the assembly , all along , in that remonstrance , not having delivered the truth from their heart , in any part thereof , but altogether spoken deceitfully or falsly in every of their assertions , or aspersions ( rather ) laid upon thē . and now , say ▪ good reader , are these dealings of these prime independent-remonstrants , the practises of precious saints ? are these fit actions think you , for the heads of a godly-party , so bigly boasted of , and most mightily blazed abroad in the world by the trump of flying ( i had almost said lying ) fame ? certainly then am i extremely mistaken in my poor ●udgement and knowledge in piety and probity . concerning which their most injurious molesting of the peace of gods church , and their unbridled endeavours to obtrude wayes and rules of governing gods church after their own conceited opinions , not having any ground out of gods word for the same ; i shall here desire to minde them of a most pertinent passage , very fit for this our present purpose , related by my reverend friend m. burton in his sermon entituled , for god and the king . where hee writes thus . were it a law in england as once it was among the loctians ; that whosoever would propound a new law , should come with a halter about his neck , that if it pleased not the senate , the hangman , being ready , should doe his office on him . this passage master burton , then , applyed ( and i confesse most fitly ) to the prelates of his time , for their illegall innovations , and this passage ( i verily believe ) i may as properly apply to our schismaticall independents and the rest and best of their fraternity of sectaries , who so strive and struggle to introduce ( by their new lights forsooth ) such new laws or ways of a church-government , which so justly may , and doe displease our honourable senate , and molest the whole kingdom , because they cannot prove or justifie them from gods word , if therefore that law were on foot and in force among us , at this time , and that these our sectaries should be made to come with halters about their necks , on that condition ; what a case , these our independents , together with their waspish-brethren , the anabaptists , and the rest of their rabble : of sectaries , would be in , let all wise men judge ? again , see yet farther , i pray thee , good reader , more of their palpable and apparent halting and double-dealing , still manifested under their own hands , against themselves , for , heretofore mr. john goodwin , in his innocencies triumph , his theomachia . pag. 48 , 49 , 50. and diverse others of his late pamphlets ; mr. burton also ( my old entirely beloved friend , for whom my soule mournes in secret , to see him so falne off from his former faithfull principles ) in his vindication , pag. 49 , 50 , 51. and pag. 68 , 69 , &c. christ upon his throne , master lilburn , also , in his frothie and most scurrilous letter , to ever to be honoured m. prinne ; the jesuiticall author or authors of the arraignment of mr. persecution , together with very many others , too tedious to recite , and to whose own abusive words , in their own writings , in high derogation of the parliaments honour and authority in ecclesiasticall affairs , for brevittes sake i refer the reader . all these independents and sectaries , i say , and many others of them did heretofore in those times of their then writings ( and , rebus sic stantibus ) when their fears were exceeding strong that the parliament would certainly establish the presbyterian-government , and their hopes extreme weake and flat of having their independent church-way set up , or so much as a toleration tolerated to them : o then i say , how was the power of parliaments in ecclesiasticall jurisdiction , or matters of religion , cryed down , abased and abused by m. goodwin , and the rest ? alas , for the parliament to take upon it the ordering of church government , or church discipline , o this was a most high and intollerable presumption in them , this was a most bold intrenching upon christs royall prerogative , with many such like terrible taxations , and heavy imputations of wrongfull usurping an antichristian legislative power and authority over the consciences ( forsooth ) of christs free born holy-ones : but now adays , of late , the case is altered , since the election of new-members of parliament in the house of commons , whereby they begin to dream , ( and i trust in god they doe but dream ) that their hopes are now upon the wing , and raised up to a high-flown pitch of conceit that the presbyterian-government shall either quite down , and not be established at all , or else so clog'd and clipt with commissioners , and such like supposed yokes , curbs and restrictions , as shall like pharao's chariots in the red-sea , take off the wheels , and make it drive on so heavily , that independents , anabaptists , and the rest , shall have fit and fair oportunities mightily to advance and hurrie on their own designes , their crafty ayms and ends , and in time bring them to perfection , and for the present enjoy a full allowance of that cursed cause of the ruine of all sound religion and sincere holinesse , libertie of conscience for all damnable sects and schismes whatsoever . o , now , therefore , i say , how is the power of parliament in matters of religion and setling of church government , cryed-up and magnified , yea , and wholy and onely , ( as it were ) appropriated to them as the main master builders of gods house , his church ? and as for the assembly of divines , they have nothing to doe therein , but so far onely as the parliament pleases to use or refuse them . witnesse , first , the peace-maker , lately printed and published , which now so struggles to uphold a peaceable-union between the parliament and the city of london , especially , ( wherein he does well , if that were all ) but why , ipray , is this designe so fairely prest and put on ? o , because we in the city may assure our selves ( sayes this peace-maker ) if through our dis-unions the parliament should miscarry in the main cause in hand , not all our most professed friends in the world can preserve us from perishing . marke these words well , good reader , the main cause in hand , and consider the times , now , and certainly the peace-maker must needs mean religion and church-government ( not the businesse of war ) to be the main cause in hand , and then take speciall notice also of his so zealously maintaining of the parliamentarie-covenant , but with this proviso , that it be in his sense , and with his glosse set upon it , which i should wonder how this author dares thus to doe ( but that i now see they dare to doe any thing ) since as he well knows what a most deadly danger the author of the protestation protested was in , in former dayes , for putting his sense , as the parliaments sense , upon that parliamentarie-protestation . besides , how does this peace-maker agree with that crafty caution-contriver , mr. i. g. in his twelve cautions against the hot-pressers of reformation ? ( as hee flashingly termes the pious presbyterians ) who cannot endure a parliamentary-covenant-reformation of religion , or rather , as i may say , a covenanting-preparative to the worke of reformation of religion , as in those his twelve serious cautions , he most subtilely and slily ( like himselfe ) insinuates , and therein paddles , and pleases his own contentious humour , pretending indeed onely piety , but ayming ( as is most easie there to be understood ) at his own most dangerous and factious ends , his principall practice and trade for these many years . besides this peacemaker , we have also one m. walwin , a most egregiously pharisaicall whisperer , pharisaicall , i say ; for , in his frothy whisper in m. edwards his eare , pag. 4. he takes occasion ( just as his independent masters , the five apologists did also , in their apolog. nar. of themselves , so he ) to magnifie himselfe , not whispering ( now ) but blowing a trumpet of his own high prayses , with a long-breath , and a lowd-stentorian-voice , about two pages long in quarto , and all to paint out his own person to be such a seraphicall and angelicall-saint , yea , as it were , of such an immaculate , and sublimely refined nature and celestiall-temper , as if there were nihil humani , in the man ; in so much , that , truly for my part , i professe sincerely i never read or heard of such a notorious self-flatterer in all my life ; yea , certainly far transcending the proud pharisee mentioned in the the gospell . this pharisaicall whisperer , i say , being , now , turn'd like a weathercock , with the winde of temporizing-policy hath these words in that piece of his whispering-stuff , pag. 4. as far as it can , in this nation ( there 's a juggle ) i am certain , it belongeth only to the parliament to iudge what is agreeable to the word of god , and not unto the assembly of divines . ah , sir , is the case thus alter'd , now ? must the parliament only be judge in matters of religion ? whereas , heretofore , neither parliament , nor assembly ( by our sectaries familiar sentence ) had any such power . nay , see how hee goes on . and god ( sayes he ) hath blessed all their undertakings , in a wonderfull manner , by the hands of conscientious people , because of their just and tender regard unto freedome in religion , notwithstanding all importunity to the contrary ; meaning , in suffering all sorts of sectaries to doe what they list , notwithstanding all honest endevours of pious presbyterians , against licentious libertines and independents . thus this whisperer . but , to go on ; see , again , the strange boldnes of these our independents , set forth yet farther , by that most audacious jesuiticall-independent , the most seditious , yea , trayterous authour of the last warning to london . how , first , he most impudently quarrels at all government , both regall , civill and ecclesiasticall , and then scornfully contends with a government established by the parliament , in these words , pag. 3. 4 , & 5. others ( meaning of the presbyterian partie ) are troubled with another as unreasonable a humour concerning ecclesiasticall government who are undone , ruined , and torne in peeces with rents and divisions if all the people may not be compelled to worship god as they doe , or in one uniforme way by the state established . yet ( sayes he ) p. 5. these are they that frame oaths and covenants for you in such ambiguous expressions ( like delphian-oracles ) that you shall seem to be bound to doe any thing they shall desire , be it ever so absurd or wicked . here , now , you see , this impudent independent will not endure a worship established by the state , when he fear'd the fall of his own partie , thereby : but look upon him a little farther , and see how notoriously he playes the jugler , and palpable impostor , pag. 7. in these very words . minde your own good ( this he also speaks to the city of london ) and cleave fast to the house of commons ; let no sorcerie or sophistrie divide you from them , be not importunate with them for church-government , but leave it to their wisdoms to measure-out unto the clergie , what may be for the quiet and profit of the people . see here now how the case is altered with this independent ; now , all must be left to the state , to the wisdome of the house of commons , now you see a parliamentary church government is the best . but , see again , how this satanicall-deceiver goes about most audaciously and sediciously to make a rent and division between the two houses of parliament . the lords ( says he ) are not to goe before the commons in determining what concerns the nations , their large answer to your last city-petition for church-government and suppression of conventicles , insinuates they would allure you from the commons , therefore observe them watchfully , and trust them accordingly , and let not any of these estrange you from that your faithfull councel , the house of commons . this is now adays , their tone and tune ; now , i say , that they suppose ( but most falsly i hope ) that the house of commons will either curb , or cast down the presbyterian-government , or at least grant a toleration to the independent-church way . but , in the meane season , judge ô my godly brethren , is not this a most satanicall dissembler , and abominable traitor too , to peace and truth ? and are not all these men brave and bold consciencious time-servers and time-observers for their own ayms and interests ? certainly , i think they are , or else i am still mightily mistaken . nay yet again , what a strange trick have they now of late taken up to abuse us withall ? even to make our solemne league and most sacred covenant that happy & heavenly tie upon our consciences to almighty god himself to be if possibly it may be ) a mayn snare and most da●gerous dilemma ( or nose of wax ) to undo us all ( in making us abominable and nauseous covenant-breakers ) by their false wrested comments and fallacious glosses & interpretations set upon it , for the surer and subtiller advance of their own wicked aymes and ends ; telling us that the parliament intended not the sense and acceptation of it , thus and thus , according to the letter of it , as we the presbyterians take it , and undiscreetly would have it ; neither for conformity to the church of scotland , or other reformed churches ; as my old deare , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 unhappy friend m. burton in his fore-mentioned peacemaker seems to come too neer to such an interpretation of that branch of our covenant , when he sayes ; and why not rather to the churches of new-england , & yet he sees ( or may if he please ) the very church of scotland nominatim , expressed plainly in the covenant : but the letter ( they say ) must not stand for good ( but an , &c. ) sense , like the bishops oath . much , also , to this purpose , speaks that most wicked and seditious , yea , apparently jesuiticall last warning to london ; and walwin also that whisperer , and self-flated-flatterer , before more fully mentioned . and thus this godly party , these precious saints , willingly forget ( as i touched before ) or are now adayes ( without fear or piety ) most carelesse and fearlesse of the great danger of their lives , or , at least , of some severe corporall punishment , as the author of the protestation protested , once was in ( as i touched before ) for daring to wrest the sense of the covenants , orders or edicts of our wise and honourable parliamentarie senators , to their own private and most pernicious aymes and ends o tempora ! o mores ! if ever certainly , now , is that of the prophet jeremiah most truly and clearly fulfilled , and too manifest in these our independents : take ye heed , everyone , of his neighbour , and trust yee not in any brother ; for , every brother will utterly supplant , and every neighbour will walk with slanders . and for a most particular ratification of this scripture , i shall here give the reader a cleere example in an eminent independent past●r , now and long resident in this city , and well known to almost all in the city , viz. doctor homes , who succeeded reverend and religious master faucet , who being a sickly gentleman , and finding hee could not have his health well in the city , contracted with doctor homes about exchange of their livings , the one for the city , the other for the country in case of consent of the inhabitants of each place . master faucets parishioners out of their good respect and love to him , and for his desired accommodation , consented thereunto , and the rather also , as knowing the doctor to be a man of able parts , and perswaded he would live lovingly , and deale honestly and conscienciously with them , as a godly and faithfull pastor ought with his own people . after which consent the doctor procured a presentation from the ( then ) lord keeper to the bishop , and the next thing to be done was to have an induction from the bishop , but there the doctor made a stand , and desired conference with the parishioners about it ▪ to whom he declared the tendernes of his cōscience , and that he could not digest such an induction , he holding it antichristian , and yet without which he could not have the living , as the case then stood . whereupon the parishioners having very good thoughts of the doctor in those dayes , and hoping for much good by his ministry amongst them , were all of them willing to accept of him for their pastor , though he was not ( as the manner then was ) legally possest of the living provided , that the doctor should enter into bond to save the parish harmelesse from the next incumbent , for delapidations or any thing else that might befall them in that respect of the living , he not being proper incumbent . to this the doctor consented , seald the parish a bond , for the purposes aforesaid , and so the parishioners thought all was well between them , and thus it continued some few moneths , the doctor constantly preaching and officiating in his ministry amongst them ; but now at last , the doctor began to flag , and to be discontented , and would neither preach , nor doe ought else among his people as their minister , or but very seldom and discontentedly , and told the parishioners hee was troubled in minde , and bound in his spirit , and could not goe on comfortably with them , and desired therefore a conference with them all together , whereupon a meeting there was , and he then declared to them that he was much troubled in minde by reason of his engagement , and that it was a grèat hinderance to his studies , and to his other contentments , and that he could not goe on in preaching to them , till his engagement was taken off from him , making this a great argument therein , namely , that he had a wife , and that if god should take him away from her , his wife would then beliable to make good what he was bound to , but , that she was utterly unfit to deal in businesses of such a nature , and therefore , i say , he desired he might have in his bond again , or else he could not goe on comfortably in his ministry , and that if they would thus far favour and respect him , they should see how highly he should value their love therein , and how he would studie and strive to deserve it of them , bidding them trust him upon his word and promise , which accordingly they most freely and lovingly did , and gave him in the bond presently , and ever since that , they have paid soundly for it , for very shortly after hee began boldly to play reexs , to stand upon termes on tiptoe , as it were , with his parishioners , gathered an independent congregation , excluding all his foresaid loving parishioners from christian communion in their own parish church , except they would enter into a covenant with him , to walke according to his rule , which they not willing to yeeld unto he having got the keyes of the church from their clerke , keeps all the parishioners out , and will not administer the sacrament of the lords supper to any of them , not baptize any of their children , nor doe any act of a minister or pastor to his people , save what he would doe to a very turke or pagan , unlesse they will dance after his independent pipe ; and thus now the parishioners wander as sheepe without a sheepherd , glad to run into others pastures , and this they have gotten by trusting to a grave independents bare promise . and are not now the prophets words before recited , here too truly verified and confirmed ? the truth of all which though not extant in print under the doctors own hands ( as for shame is not like to be ) yet i am able to justifie by the testimonie of divers of the honest , able , religious , and understanding parishioners or inhabitants of that place , to full satisfaction . again who ever looks upon that peece of changeable taffatie , for i confesse t is finely spun ( as so are all his ) and yet interwoven with sablesilke , that is , much black-slander and jettie-jeers , i mean mr. john goodwins twelve serious considerable cautions about reformation , together with his soft and smooth probationer thereof , his independent brother master john bachiler ; o what prettie tinkling and tampering shall he there finde ( to abuse and blind-fold the understanding of their most willingly deceived and abused independent proselytes ) between the licenser and the licentious author , both upon the serious perusall of the crafty cautions themselves , and the licensers slie protestations ( there ) that he sees nothing therein contrary to sound doctrine and good manners ; and thus , in effect , hee also deals by his full approbation of my late friend mr. saltmarsh his most foggie and suffocating or choking smoake of the temple , touching which , i think , learned , grave and godly mr. ley , a reverend divine of the assembly hath sufficiently shewn him his grosse failings and weaknesses , to say no more ; and also his grones for liberty out of smectymnius , in neither of which also can mr. bachiler see any thing contrary to sound doctrine nor good manners though they bee full fraught ( especially , the grones for libertie ) with very false , falacious , and grossely misapplyed parallels , and unsavorie comparisons , between the cases or conditions and times of the dommeering prelates , ouer the truly tender consciences of the ( then ) truly godly nonconfommists , and our ( now ) pious presbyterians in their gracious and most moderate desire of unity and uniformity in sound doctrine , and scripturall discipline , with his schismaticall sectaries , in their most ungodly and ungrounded grones , or rather grunts , for abominable , yea damnable libertie of conscience , forsooth . nor can this tender conscienced licenser , to his deare independent authors , see ought amisse in master sal●marshes subtile and deceitfull treatise of free-grace , the glorious and specious deep-promising title whereof ( as learned and reverend master gatakar truly sayes , in his learned answer to that book of m. salimarshes ) on the very frontispeece , were bush enough of it self , to invite & intice ( guests ) to tast of such pretended precious liquor ; yet very much dangerous drinke of errour to be found therein , as mr. gatakar , i say , in that his learned and pious reply cleerely discovers , together also with master saltmarshes most injurious exceptions and discontents at reverend and religious master edwards his gangraena , of whom ( i mean master edwards ) i can say thus much , from master saltmarshes own mouth , on mine own particular knowledge , that i having got master saltmarsh both to heare master edwards preach in christ-church , and afterward to have much particular conference with him at my house , i and others have heard master saltmarsh give master edwards such high and honourable testimony both for his godly , sound , and satisfactory preaching , and also for his gravity , solidity , & sweetly tempered moderation in conference , as that i am confident , hee is not able to give more or better testimony and commendation of any independent or sectarie , whatsoever : yea , and he added these words unto me . i professe , sir ( says he to my selfe ) had i not thus heard m. edwards my self , i could not have believed the half thereof ; but , i am now glad i have , thus heard him , and conferred with him , that now i may ( as i will ) on all occasions , vindicate his reputation and honour , when ever i heare him traduced or ill-spoken of . or words full , to this effect . and all this , i say , i can most faithfully witnesse and testifie and so can others ) on mine own particular knowledge . truly , therefore , me thinks , had i said no more , in these respects , than what that worthy authour ( who ever he was ) of that , though succinct , yet most solid piece , entituled toichoructa , or independents razing their own foundation . wherein , he most singularly deciphers how neer the spirit of independents comes to remish jesuits , in their deceits and dissimulations , stretching their consciences beyond the the line of all fair-dealing ; had i , therefore , i say , said no more , me thinks , i had spoken enough to convince them of deep impiety and most foul iniquity , in the very way of their destructive schisme among us . nay , yet farther , take speciall notice , i beseech thee good reader , of one more even unparalell'd piece of impiety , and ( doubtlesse ) of unpattern'd palpable iniquity most worthily mentioned to their eternall and indelible shame and infamy by the foresaid authour of that toichoructa , which you shall finde exactly set downe , in that notable piece , pag 4 , 5 , 6. wherein hee shews how notoriously dissemblingly and unconscionably the independents of the assembly at westminster dealt with their presbyterian brethren , there , about commissioners to judge of sins not ennmerated in the ordinance touching admitting or not admitting to the sacrament of the lords supper . against which , when our presbyterian-divines desired their dissenting-brethren of the independent faction to joyn in a petition with them to the house of commons ; and although it is a thing which independents cannot according to their principles allow of ; yet , now , upon this just desire of their presbyterian-brethren , they answered ; the thing the assembly desired was good , yet they could not joyn with them therein because it might be a hinderance to a greater good which themselves desired . here 's policie to the purpose , indeed . and ( as the same authour goes on ) whether the independents have not had their hands deep in the promoting the businesse of commissioners and obstructing those wayes which might have prevented it i appeale to their owne consciences . now , if any one ask ( as well as wonder ) upon what principles , the indep●ndents can , in conscience , consent and approve of , yea , promote and farther ( as 't is too evident they have ) the laying on of such burthens upon other mens shoulders , as themselves cannot in conscience submit unto ? i answer , on what principles of conscience they thus proceed , i know not , but their prin●iples of policy , are divers and deep ; as first , themselves never meant to be unde● such bonds , but either hoped to get a formall toleration for their way , and exemption from such a rule , or at least , resolved to practise toleration in their seperated congregations , whether the magistrate tolerate it or not , unto them ; and therefore cared not how straight and pirching those or any bonds were made for others . thus and more , to this purpose , this worthy authour . now if all these be not prety independent tricks to play fast and loose with their brethren , i know not what belongs to fair play above board . and all these things being so evident and apparent to all truly pious and impartiall christians , that are not wilfully blinde , and so conspicuous under their own hands ( for the most part ) even all i have hither●o written of them , i cannot but exceedingly wonder how it should come to passe , that mens eyes and understanding ( especially too many even of the intelligent presbyterian party ) should be so blinded or rather besotted , and that their reason should be so gull'd and del●…ded , as to believe these and such like pernitious and perfidious pr●ctices to be consonant and agreeable to such pious-men and precious-saints ( i mean , i say , the heads and ring-leaders of them especially ) as the world cals and conceives them to be ; and therefore , they say , they dare not speak against them , or think evill of them ; considering i say in the first place ( as a sure ground to build their judgement on ) these scripture-marks and characters of a truly holy-saint and gracious citizen of the new-jerusalem ; and how d●ame●rally opposite thereunto , these independent sectaries walk , and how egregiously discrepant and remote they are from them . and , since , as our blessed saviour says , in the mouth , or testimony of two or three witnesses , every word or truth shall be established . i hope , this cloud of unquestionable self-condemning-testimonies , even as it were out of their own mouthes , and under their own hands ( the most of them ) may be abundantly sufficient , for the future , to stop the mouthes of our independent antagonists , and to satisfie the false conceits of any neutrall gainsayers , yea , and to make ( if it bee possible ) the boldest of them to blush and hold their tongues , or hide their faces for shame of themselves and their deceitfull and wicked way . and yet , i must confesse , i may seem , herein , to be much mistaken ( especially in the opinion of independents , object . 1 and such as harken or adheare to them ) for , they have , most cunningly got a brave varnish to glaze over all these objections , and a fine back-do●e of evasion to get out at , from all these censures and surmises of presbyterians touching all these the independents seeming miscarriages ; namely , that all this which i have hitherto urged against them , as subtilties and deceivable errors , schismes or enormities , they finely and fairly call and count glorious new-lights , and rare-revelations . and , hence it is ( they will assure you ) that at the first they told us ( in their apologeticall narration ) that they would positively determine nothing in their church way or church-government , but forsooth , wait in expectation ( still ) of new-light , and so keep a reserve , to help themselves at a dead lift , for so are mr. burtons own words in his vindication . but hereunto , i answer , is not this a cleere jesuiticall juggle , and most like unto the popish equivocation , whereby the jesuits , seminarie-priests , and all jesuited papists did familiarly use to help themselves at a dead lift , answ . 1 when they were examined upon any serious questions , even by a mentall reservation or equivocation to help themselves , i say , and thereby did they the more cunningly deceive the most acute argumentators and interrogating disputans that came against them ? and would not our independents , now adayes , by this their fine-trick of new-lights , forsooth , befool our faith , and make us believe they doe all now , by rare revelations ? herein , i say , dealing with us , just as the jesuites did with their proselytes and opposites too , in the point of transubstantiation , labour to make them believe that the bread and wine in the lords supper , were truly ; really , and corporally transubstantiated into the very body and bloud of christ even the very same which suffered and was shed on the crosse in all respects , though there was no visible change ( either to sight or sense ) in the bread or wine , but they still remained the same which they were before they were consecrated , whereof , when they were told so , they presently answered that it was so trāsinutated or changed by a miracle , forsooth , which indeed was a ridiculous and absurd answer ; for we never read of any miracle wrought either by any of the prophets , christ himself , or his apostles , but it was reall , evident , and visible , both to sight and sense to be a miracle indeed : even so i say to out independents , concerning their reserve or new-lights , tell them of any of their new & upstart errors , or vaporous enthusiasmes , or newly-revived-opinions or conceits , but indeed meer old errours ( call them what you please ) rak't out of the rotten ashes of ancient hereticks and schismaticks , presently their smooth and deceivable answer is ; o sir , these are not errours but new-lights , newly and rarely revealed to us by some sodain and secret inspiration , and when we demand or desire to have it made out unto us by gods written word , that they are reall and demonstrative , new-lights indeed , that we may evidently discerne them to be such , by that truest tonch-stone , the word of god , and not to be empty meteors and crotchets of their own brains ; then , alas , either through ignorance and deceivablenesse they cannot , or else with as much impertinencie as obstinacie , they will foolishly and falsely urge that of the prophet joel , and it shall come to passe , that i will poure out my spirit upon all flesh , and your sons and your daughters shall prophesie , &c. and your young men shall see visions . whereas this prophesie of joel ( as the apostle peter told the jews ) was clearly prophesied of , and mainly fulfilled in those times of the apostles , and then after our saviour christs ascention ( which were called those last-dayes , as all the learned observe ) the lord indeed poured out his spirit on all flesh , on young and old , male and female , and gave them power of admirably doing miracles and wonders , and then i say ( as the apostle peter , in that forecited scripture said ) was this prophesie of joel most apparently fulfilled , and so continued all the time of the apostles lives , and some of their holy disciples , even to about the time of the destruction of jerusalem . but what 's this to our times , wherein ( and long time before ) miracles are ceased ? can any of us dare to assume the extraordinary power of the spirit of god , to doe miracles , and worke wonders ? is it a miracle or a wonder ( indeed , i confesse it may be , to see such intolerable impudence ) to see young saucie boyes ( in comparison ) bold botching taylors , and other most audacious illiterate mechanicks , to run rudely and rashly ( and unsent for too ) out of their shops into a pulpit ; to see bold impudent huswives , without al womanly modesty , to take upon them ( in the naturall volubility of their tongues , & quick wits , or strong memories onely ) to prate ( not preach or prophesie ) after a narrative or discoursing manner , an houre or more , and that most directly contrary to the apostles inhibition ; but where , i say , is their extraordinary spirit poured out upon them , either in the gift of tongues ( except it be the lying and the slanderous tongues , which are rather the gifts of the evil spirit , as the apostle james testifies ) in gifts of miraculous healing the sick and sore , and such like ? where , i say , are any of these in our old or young tradesmen , or bould beatriceses of the female sex ? and does not the apostle peter most punctually come up to this very thing of our independents , even to shew us this most notable dissembling and fallacious trick of new-lights , and fained revelations , which he foresaw would follow his departure out of his earthly-tabernacle , , and therefore forewarns the people of god to beware of them , telling them , verse 16. that he and the rest of the faithfull apostles used not cunningly devised fables ( or new inventions of their own or other mens brains ) when they made known the power and comming of the lord jesus unto them . adding at length this most immoveable and infalible rule for them to walk by , and to be guided with , ver. 19. but we have a more sure word of prophesie , whereunto you doe well that yee take heed , as unto a light that shineth in a darke place , till the day dawn , and the day-star ( of truth ) arise in your hearts . away , then , with this notorious deceitfull trick of new-lights ( for shame ) and of your rare revelations ; cheat not the people of god and your own soules , especially , with these deceivable devices of your own brains , and schismaticall spirits . but , this , most certainly , is the independent way , now adayes , among us , to the great disturbance of the peace and comfort of the people of the lord , and when we justly tell them of their unfaithfull dealing , and down right deceiving , by this their trick of new-lights ; o then , just as the jesuits and popish priests , in queene maries dayes , and of later times , called those that would not believe their popish trick of transubstantiation to be a miracle , they called and counted them , i say , hereticks : so these our independents ( if we will not , and cannot in our consciences , nor by any of their demonstrations , beleeve their trick of new-lights to be a scripture revelation of some rare truth of god not formerly known but a meere conceit , yea , a plain deceit ) ô then presently , i say , our independents call and count us ( as my selfe heard master burroughs deliver such an expression in one of his lectures at michaels in corn-hill ) carnall and prophane presbyterians , grievers and despisers of the saints and godly party , forsooth , and contemners of the gifts of the spirit , whereas indeed there is no such thing in them , but they most palpable and impudent impostors . and thus , the lord knows , they goe about deceiving and being deceived , and truly , hinc illae lachrima , heer 's the source , the rice and originall of all these unhappie and unholy jars and divisions between us ; they are so nimble and quick-sighted in apprehension of new-lights , and we are so dull and obtuse ( if they will have it so ) and hard of belief to be led , or rather misled by them , as not being able to discerne so much out of gods word , till when , we shall ever question and quarrell at this novell and vain device of theirs . but again , our independents have one trick more , at least to put us object 2 finely off from our just objurgations with them , and accusations of them , concerning their most dangerous and damnable errours , now adayes broacht by them , and brag'd of among them , viz. that wee are too uncharitable in thus upbraiding the saints with their infirmities , forsooth ; yea , and ( as i touch'd before ) in laying the failings and slips of onely the retrimentitious ▪ partie ( as master iohn goodwin terms them , as before ) that is , in plain english the excrements or dregs of sectaries , independents , anabaptists , and such like . where first answer . 2 take notice , good reader , by way of reply hereunto in generall , that master iohn goodwin confesses , there is a retrimentitious or excrementall-partie among his saints . secondly , that he calls and counts their dangerous , damnable , and blasphemous errours , with the rest of their foul impieties , but sins of infirmity . but more particularly to the first , i briefly answer , that as i have sufficiently made it clear , all along in this treatise , they are not onely the retrimentitious-partie of their independent saints , that deale thus dangerously and deceitfully with us , but the very best and bravest , yea , seemingly , gravest grandees of them all . secondly , is not master iohn goodwin , or any of the rest of them ashamed , to call such abusive and abominable errours and such foul and frequent facts of impiety ( as they are too justly taxed with , and found guilty of ) sins onely of infirmity ? can he or they make us beleeve that they know not how to distinguish between sins of weaknesse or infirmity , and reigning-sins , church-disgracing and conscience-wounding abominations ? for my part i conceive ( under correction ) sins of infirmity are such as are committed either ignorantly , or if knowingly , yet ) fearfully , and with much reluctation of spirit , seldom , and that with much vehement repentance and godly sorrow after conviction , with purpose and bent of heart ( by gods grace ) to be more watch full against them for the future , and such like . as for reigning-sins , i conceive them to be , sins committed or acted knowingly , affectedly , promeditately , resolutely , constantly , or frequently and familiarly against all evidences of conviction or exhortation against them , yea , and so far from repentance for them , as to justifie them and rejoyce and boast in them ; together with such like other sad symptomes thereof . now , whether very many of our profest independents embrace or act their dangerous errours , lying , double dealing , and the like , as aforesaid , in the former or in the latter capacity or condition , as sins of weaknesse or of wilfulnesse , and affected obstinacy , i leave themselves to judge and faithfully to examine their own hearts and consciences ( for , to their own master they stand or fall ) and to all others also , who impartially observe and take notice of their carriage and conversation ; especially , upon serious consideration of those characters of a true saint , which i have faithfully fore-mentioned to them ; all that i will , for my part , say herein , is , to tell you my strong fears , that , in regard of the premises , i cannot but greatly suspect and doubt , in the latter capacity ( i say , very many of them ) so proud , so pragmaticall , so insolent and obstinate are they in a most ungrounded defence of their evils and errours ; and on these grounds , i must confesse i cannot judge more tenderly of them . and again , i say , in yet more full answer to this objection ; how dare any of them call or account any the ( seeming ) least of their errours , small-sins or no-sins , being against the eternall truth , of our most pure object . 3 and holy god ? and whereas in the last place they cry out against us , and tax us , not onely of want of charity , but asperse us with plain impiety , for urging against them , and accusing them openly or inprint , of their foul offences , and openly taught and maintained dangerous errours , schismes , and enormities , and of their damnable doctrines and opinions : i say , and will avouch and maintain it , that our work and way herein , is both holy , honest , and warrantable from the word it self ; and particularly from that of the apostle paul , who answ . 3 himselfe tels us , that , when peter ( who at that time seemed a pillar of gods house , the church ) did that which was worthy of blame , and that , openly , to the prejudice and so and all of gods people and cause : this blessed apostle , i say , tels us , that he withstood peter and rebuked him , even to his face for his dissimulation , and for being a means ( thereby to ensnare barnabas also into the same foule fault with him ; even the very same , whereof i now here complain in our independents and their schismaticall brethren , namely , dissimulation or double-dealing . yea , and ( as the same blessed , wise , and holy apostle said ) they are most worthy to be even most sharply rebuked , and also openly , in regard they have offended and dissembled so openly , even in print , therefore are , i say , to be reproved in paint , whereas , indeed , had they offended but in private , god forbid , but we should tenderly have dealt in private with them . and this indeed hath been a main ground of the quarrell between reverend master edwards , and his independent antagonists , who have most injuriously abused him with slanders , onely , or mainly for his zealous opposing , and sharpe reproving the open errours , schismes , and scandalous miscarriages of these men , who can be content to dishonour god and his truth , but cannot endure to be taxt and told of it , though the apostle tels them they are worthy to be blamed for it , and therefore in this respect , though ( according to that old axiome , amicus socrates , amicus plato , magic tamen amica veritas , though such an one is my friend , and such an one is my old acquaintance and friend , yet , by gods grace , truth is and shall be my best friend , yea , and i say as my blessed lord and master christ jesus said , to this end was i born , and for this cause came i into the world , that i should bear witnesse ( with the rest of gods faithfull ones ) to the truth ; and fully and faithfully to speake and declare the truth with all holinesse , godly zeal , courage and impartiality against whomsoever , in this case neither regarding the favours or frowns of any , but onely ayming at the glory of my god , which , i say , was the main end of my creation . but to conclude and shut up all i have now to say , it is most probable that our independents , and the rest of their schismaticall fraternity ( for as i have formerly toucht , i make account all the rest of the sectaries , are for certain independents ) object . 3 will again , now at last object and say unto me ; that all this while i have but pleased my selfe , in beating the ayre , and shooting at rovers , being wide of the marke and much mistaken , in all that i have taxed and accused them with all , for none of them are at all perswaded or convinced in their consciences , that any of those which master edwards , or i , call errours or schismes , are schismes or sins , but ( as answer . 3 was touched before ) new-lights , and new-revealed truths . whereunto i answer , with sorrow of soule for their sakes , i easily , indeed , believe they will say so , and i cannot much marvell at it , since ( as those demetrians said ) by this craft they have got much gain . and since i see this is their obstinate and inflexible resolution , thus , still , to say and hold , and that they are before hand resolved ( for private interests and self-aymes sake ) that no clearest demonstrative reasons or argumentations ( no though from apparent scripture , or scripture-consequences ) shall beat them off , or disswade them from these satans strong stratagems of new-light , new-revelations , keeping reserves , and liberty of conscience ; i therefore will say no more unto them , but with the spirit of the lord , said to obstinate and incorrigible ones ; hee that is unjust , let him be unjust still , and he that is filthy let him bee filthy still ; and he that is righteous , ô let him be righteous still ; and hee that is holy , let him be holy still ? onely , i herein may comfortably say to mine own heart , liberavi animam meam : yet , as the religious bonds of piety and charity binde me ) from my soule i shall unfainedly pray ( as the lord knows i daily doe ) that god would in the riches of his grace in christ jesus open their eyes and speake to their hearts , shew them the evill of their ways , and the great danger of their destructive errours , to the ruine of the whole kingdom , yea , of the three whole kingdoms , if they doe not timely retract and repent of those great and gangrene evils and blasphemous errours , which have enflamed almost the whole kingdom ( by their new-lights ) as so many firebrands to set on fire three whole kingdoms , i say , if the lord in mercie ( by the wisdome , piety , and impartiallity of our parliament ) quench not the flame in time , and graciously reconcile us not together by godly peace , unity , and unanimity of spirit , which the lord in much mercie grant unto us for his sake , who is the prince of peace , truth , and love , and of all godly order , even the lord christ the righteous , to whom be all honour , praise , dominion , with holy and hearty universall obedience , for ever , amen . the opinion and advice ( as it is deemed ) of monsieur de moulin , professor of divinity , in the vniversity of sedan , in france ; concerning the opinion of those who are named independents , in england . wherein , the inconcinnity and unreasonablenesse , if not apparent impiety of independents , in the mayn point of classicall-discipline , is most evidently discovered , by this eminently reverend and learned divine , to the shame and silence of our obstinate independents . sir , a certain friend of mine , an honest religious man hath given me notice , that certain persons doe finde fault with the order and discipline established in our church ; in which , the consistory are subject to the colloquies , and the colloquies to the provinciall synod ; and the provinciall to the nationall synod . and their desire is to have every particular consistory or congregation of one and the same absolute authority , independent from any superiour authority or assembly whatsoever . upon which , my said friend earnestly desired to have my opinion or judgement on the matter ; which , being of such a nature and importance , i could not any way decline , or deny his request , which , i have here set down , and is as followeth . i say , that those which propound this opinion ought in no manner or wise to be hearkened unto ; for if in case this their opinion were followed , there could nothing else ensue but the certain ruine of the church , and an extreme confusion , for the severall reasons , heer following . first , it happeneth often times , that two ministers of one parish or congregation , fall our and are at variance , and thereupon they separate and divide the congregation into two factions , in such an occasion of necessity , there must needs be the helpe of a superiour authority . secondly , the church or congregation hath but one minister , and he leads an ungodly life , to the scandall of the church , and the consistory of that congregation censureth him , all being of one accord or if it happen that the said consistory be divided , and of two opinions , there can be ( surely ) in such a case , no remedy , but by a superiour power and authority of colloquies or synods , who have power to depose and appoint such ministers ( or such a minister ) if there be but one ) as they shall think fit , and they or he desiring to be deposeth ? who shall depose him , the elders onely of the consistory , or the whole congregation or assembly ? shall they give sentence against them or him ? thirdly , if any one of the congregation bee unjustly suspended from the holy communion or absolutely excommunicated , unto whom shall he direct himselfe to be re-admitted to the congregation ; or to whom shall be direct his complaint , if so be the consistory who have unjustly suspended or excommunicated him , have an absolute authority to themselves without dependencie upon any other ? if any new heresies happen to be raised in any church , and that some ministers and congregations become infected therewith , what remedy is there to avoid this great evill , but by a synod , who may examine and depose the obstinate minister or partie who infecteth the church ? had not the synod of dort remedied this evill , the arminianisme was spreading it selfe over that whole countrey , and had unavoidably prevailed . for in case that every consistory or parish had been absolute of themselves and independent , they might have refused the resolution of the said synod , alleadging that they were not subject to synods , but had an absolute authority within themselves . it is the chiefe and peculiar work of synods , which they always first take in hand , to heare the complaint of particular churches , and to judge of appeals : if these be taken away from the synods , they need no more to meet , for they have nothing to doe : for to no purpose should they pronounce their judgements , if they might govern according to their own mindes , as if every parish were made a particular soveraignty which would be an order , which was never practised nor used in any place since the apostles . there are many small parishes in the countrey , where the consistory is composed of one minister ( of none of the greatest capacity ) and of foure or five countrey-men , or clowns , who are elders of that church : and shall to such a church be given such an absolute independent authority ? and if their minister happen to die , will you believe those clowns sitting to judge of the capacity of a new minister , to give him the imposition of hands , or to order in this case what ever may be needfull ? if upon occasion of wars or distractions in the kingdom , it be necessary to keepe a day of fasting and humiliation , through all the churches in the kingdom , who shall ordain this fast , or who shall appoint the day of celebration thereof ? if it be necessary to remonstrate to the kings majestie , the complaint of all the churches in generall , who shall depute the partie that shall present the petition of the churches of the whole kingdom ? if upon any occasion it be found needfull to alter any thing in the discipline of the church in generall , and to make any new necessary orders in the same , to be observed generally , can this be done by particular consistories being independent , and who are not subject to any generall ordinance ? in brief , it ought to be believed that the dependencie of particular churches to superiour powers , is that which maintains the union of the church , and this being taken away , there would remain no more correspondencie , but a wilfull and wofull confusion would soon appear . no man ought to be judge in his own cause . but if there happen a contention between two churches ( as it happeneth too often ) neither of these two churches can be judge in their own cause , and of necessity there must be reliefe by a superiour authority , else all will be naught between them , i will not believe ( though i confesse there is cause of jealousie ) that those that desire this independencie have any intelligence with the enemie , and that thereby they seeke ( under pretence of reformation ) to bring us into a confusion , or at least to expose us to the laughter of our enemies , though , i say , i fear this , by many symptomes thereof , i rather will ( in charity ) believe they err through want of experience , and knowledge of what is profitable for the church of god . the end of every good christian and common-wealths man , is to glorifie god in maintaining his true religion , to serve the king in the preservation of his royall person and dignity , and to procure the common good in maintaining justice , and liberty of the subject and kingdom . all these ( though three branches ) arise and spring from one root , and have the same essense and being : but it is impossible that any man should truly affect the king or common-wealth that is slight and negligent in religion , nor can any man fully discharge his duty to god , that is not carefull of king and common-wealth , see then ô independents , by this foresaid solid judgement , how feeble and false , yea , how dangerous and destructive your independent church-way is . the lord open your eyes to see it , and give you hearts affected with much sorrow for your obstinacie in it , and in his good time , graciously convert you from it , to embrace peace and truth with your presbyterian brethren , thus prayes . yours , j. v. finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a95897e-2140 ill weeds grow apace . want of weeding of gods garden , the church . plain-english . 1 pretended piety and holinesse of life one great cause of the growth of independencie . 2 pretence of preaching sound doctrine another cause of independents growth among us . schismaticks are like salamanders . 1 pretence of preaching sound doctrine a cause of independents growth . sound-doctrine overthrown by our independents . a pregnant s●●●le . the word & sacraments are the vineyard or garden of the lord . godly government or scripturall church-discipline is the wall or fence about it . fals-doctrines preached and broached by independents and other sectaries . object . answ . toleration & liberty of conscience the only inlets for all other abominable opinions . iudges 15. 3 , 4. independents and all other sectaries compared most fitly to sampsons foxes . 2 pretended piety a second cause of independents growth among us . the seeming holinesse of hereticks of the primitive church . the outward seeming holy lives of the scribes and pharisees in our saviours time . 2 cor. 11. 13 , 14. mark this , ô all yee honest and plain hearted christians , that are apt to be deceived and seduced . holinesse of life is a false touchstone to try sound men by . 1 cor. 11. 1. soundnesse in doctrine is a true touchstone to try a sound man by gal. 1. 7 , 8. soundnesse in doctrine though accompanied with humane infirmities is a safer way to try men , than seeming-exact walking accompanied with errours in doctrine . the main promised point , now , proved . the certain characters of a truly godly-man . psal. 15. 24 , 4. matth. 7. 12. revel. 22. 15. a pretty passage concerning m. peters . independents a generation of notorious dissemblers & sly deceivers . isaiah 62. 1. cretensis , p. 5. m. iohn goodwins retrimentitious-party of sectaries . the five famous apologists . the apologeticall narration intended by the independents for their credit , proved far otherwise . the apologists are gods poore exiles ; and how . antapol . p. 190 191. apol. nar. p. 22. apol. nar. p. 5. & 6. see heere the most strange & unblushing false dealing of the independents with presbyterians , contrary to their own words and protestations . another notable and undenyable false dealing of the independents with the presbyterians . antapolo . p. 213 see heere also how most unblushingly the independents deal falsly with the presbyterians . a notable passage of fallacy , in the independents acted by mr. phil●p nye , one of their grand politicians . a remarkable discovery of the independents notorious subtilty & double-dealing . mr. nye palpably coozens mr. calamy of the writing or instrument that tyed the independents to be honest . antapol . p. 243 the most shamelesse & slanderous remonstrance against the assembly of divines owned and subscribed by seven of the most eminent independents . the independents double-dealing about their apolog. narration . the strange & most urgent & earnest importunity of the presbyterians to procure a modell of the independents church-government . answer to the remonstrance mr. tho : goodwin , at last , chosen , by the independents to frame their new-modell of their church-way . parturiunt montes nascitur ridiculus mus. a most shamelesse and slanderous remonstrance against the assembly exhibited to the assembly ( instead of their new-modell ) by seven of the most eminent independents . the perfect practice of deceives . an answer of the assembly of divines to the remonstrance of the independents in mr. burton in his sermon ; for god and the king , p. 109. a fair tale told by the sectaries for themselves . still , more notorious double dealing , under the independents own hands . mr. iohn goodwin . mr. burton . christ upon his throne . mr. iohn lilburn . arraignment of mr. persesecution . the notorious double-dealing of independents touching the power of parliaments in church-government and matters of religion . the peace-maker , pag. 3. &c. the protestation protested . mr. i. g. in his 12. serious . cautions , &c. luke 18. 11 , 12. the last warning to london . our holy covenant made an ensnaring dangerous dilemma to our consciences by the independents subtilties . the peace-maker . ierem. 9. 4. an independent jugling trick play'd by doctor homes with his parishioners . ier. 9. 4. mr. iohn bachilers approbation of a company of most pernicicious & schismaticall pamphlets , yet pretends all to be pious , sound and good . m. saltmarsh his singular testimony of m. edwards his preaching and conference . toichoructa , or , independents razing their own foundation . a remarkable piece of independents impiety . mat. 18. 16. a prettie independent evasion of all hitherto urged against independents . new-lights . vindication p. 58. donec ad triarios redieritres . independents emptie new-lights , and popish equivocation compared together . ioel 2. 18. acts 2. 16 , 17. the extreme impiety , folly , and absurdity of the audacious sectaries both man and wom●n of our times , under a pretence of new-light , from the prophesie of ioel. 1 cor. 14. 34 1 tim. 2 11 , 12 & 1 pet. 2. 15. iam. 13 , 14 , 15. here is an old light , and a true light indred . the independent saints infirmities must not bee medled with . cretensis , p. 4. not only the retrimentitious-party , but the gravest grandees of the independent-party . sins of infirmity briefly described . ragining sins briefly described . no errour into be accounted a small sin . the independents tax the presbyterians with piety for writing against their errours openly . galat. 2. 11. ibid. 2. 9. titus 1. 13. iohn 18 37. acts 19. 25. revel. 22. 11. male audis or an answer to mr. coleman his malè dicis. wherein the repugnancy of his erastian doctrine to the word of god, to the solemne league and covenant, and to the ordinances of parliament: also his contradictions, tergiversations, heterodoxies, calumnies, and perverting of testimonies, are made more apparent then formerly. together with some animadversions upon master hussey his plea for christian magistracy: shewing, that in divers of the afore mentioned particulars he hath miscarried as much, and in some particulars more then mr coleman. / by george gillespie, minister at edinbrugh. published by authority. gillespie, george, 1613-1648. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a86003 of text r200545 in the english short title catalog (thomason e317_16). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a86003) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 113393) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 52:e317[16]) male audis or an answer to mr. coleman his malè dicis. wherein the repugnancy of his erastian doctrine to the word of god, to the solemne league and covenant, and to the ordinances of parliament: also his contradictions, tergiversations, heterodoxies, calumnies, and perverting of testimonies, are made more apparent then formerly. together with some animadversions upon master hussey his plea for christian magistracy: shewing, that in divers of the afore mentioned particulars he hath miscarried as much, and in some particulars more then mr coleman. / by george gillespie, minister at edinbrugh. published by authority. gillespie, george, 1613-1648. [8], 56 p. printed for robert bostocke at the kings head in paules church-yard., london, : 1646. a reply to thomas coleman's "male dicis maledicis" (wing c5056) and to william hussey's "a plea for christian magistracie" (wing h3819). annotation on thomason copy: "jan: 24 1645"; the second 6 in imprint date crossed out. reproduction of the original in the british library. eng coleman, thomas, 1598-1647. -male dicis maledicis -early works to 1800. hussey, william, -minister of chiselhurst. -plea for christian magistracie. church of england -government -early works to 1800. church polity -early works to 1800. great britain -church history -17th century -early works to 1800. a86003 r200545 (thomason e317_16). civilwar no male audis or an answer to mr. coleman his malè dicis.: wherein the repugnancy of his erastian doctrine to the word of god, to the solemne gillespie, george 1646 25068 126 250 0 0 0 0 150 f the rate of 150 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the f category of texts with 100 or more defects per 10,000 words. 2007-03 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-04 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-07 john latta sampled and proofread 2008-07 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the preface to the reader . as i did not beginne this present controversie , so i doe not desire to hold up the ball of contention : yet having appeared in it ( neither alone nor without a calling and opportunity offered ) i hold it my duty to vindicate the truth of christ , the solemne league and covenant , the ordinances of parliament , the church of scotland , and my selfe ; for this end was i borne , and for this end came i into the world , that i might beare witnesse to the truth . wherunto i am so much the more encouraged , because it appeareth already in this debate , that magna est vis veritatis , great is the force of truth , and so great , that my antagonists ( though men of parts and such as could doe much for the truth , yet ) while they have gone about to doe somewhat against the truth , they have mired themselves in fowle errors ; yea ( so farre as in them lieth ) have most dangerously shaken and endangered the authority of magistrates , who are gods vice-gerents , and particularly the authority of parliament , and of parliamentary ordinances ; they have stumbled and fallen , and shall not be able to rise , but by the acknowledgement of the truth . in this following reply , i have not touched much of the argumentative part in master hussey his plea for christian magistracy , reserving most of it to an other worke , unto which this is a prodromus . ( howbeit much of what he saith , is the same with what i did confute in my nihil respondes , and his booke comming forth a moneth after , takes no notice of that second peece of mine , but speaketh onely to the first ) meane while , let him not believe that his bigge-looking title can like gorgons head , blockify or stonify rationall men , so as they shall not perceive the want or weakenesse of argument : it hath ever beene a trick of adversaries to calumniate the way of god and his servants , as being against authoritie . but , i will by gods assistance ) make it appeare to any intelligent man , that the reverend brother hath pleaded very much against magistracy , and so hath fallen himselfe into the ditch which hee hath digged for others , whiles i withall escape . but now what may be the meaning of master colemans cabbalisticall title , male dicis maledicis : great philologs will tell him , that maledico is taken in a good sense , as well as in a bad , according to the difference of matter and circumstances . if any kind of malediction be justifiable , it is maledicere maledicis , to speake evill to evill speakers ; for as he loved cursing , so let it come unto him : as he delighted not in blessing , so let it be farre from him . but , he doth worse , and his title with a transposition of letters , will more fitly reflect upon himselfe male dicis de amicis : you sir speake evill of your friends , and of those that never wronged you : for my part , i have not shared with him in evill speaking , nor rendred revilings for revilings . i am sorry that he is so extreamly ill of hearing , as to take reason to be railing , and good sayings to be evill sayings . he applyeth to himselfe the apostles words , being reviled , we blesse . but where to finde these blessings of his , those unwritten verities , i know not . i am sure he had spoken more truly , if he had said , being not reviled , we doe revile . for the matter and substance of his reply , there are divers particulars in it which serve rather to be matter of mirth , then of argument , as , that a parliament parasite cannot be called an abuser of the parliament , and that passage ; how can a clause delivered in a post script concerning my opinion of my way , be abusive to the parliament ? a great priviledge either of post-scripts , or of his opinions , that they can not be abusive to the parliament . many passages are full of acrimony : many extravagant and not to the point in hand : many void of matter ; concerning such lactantius gives me a good rule , otiosum est persequi singula ; it is an idle and improfitable thing to prosecute every particular . and much more i have in my eye the apostles rule , let all things be done to edifying ; i have accordingly endeavoured to avoid vaine jangling , and such debates as are unprofitable and unedifying , making choice of such purposes as may edifie , and not abuse the reader . peradventure some will think i might have wholly saved my selfe this labour ; i confesse i doe not looke upon that which i make reply unto , as if it were like to weigh much with knowing men , yet the apostle tells mee that some mens mouths must be stopped , and hierome tells me , there is nothing written without skill , which will not find a reader with as little skill to judge , and some men grow too wise in their owne eyes , when they passe unanswered . besides all this , a vindication and clearing of such things as i mentioned in the beginning , may by gods blessing anticipate future and further mistakes . reade therefore and consider , and when thou hast done , i trust thou shalt not think , that i have lost my labour . i pray the lord that all our controversies may end in a more cordiall union , for prosecuting the ends expressed in the covenant , and especially the reformation of religion , according to the word of god , and the example of the best reformed churches , and more particularly the practicall part of reformation , that the ordinances of jesus christ may be kept from pollution , prophannesse and scandals shamed away , and pietie commended and magnified . malè audis . chap. i. that master coleman doth still contradict himself in the stating of this present controversie about church-government . it was before both denied and yeelded by mr coleman , that there is a church-government which is distinct from the civil , and yet not meerly doctrinal . he did professe to subscribe heartily to the votes of parliament , and yet advised the parliament to do contrary to their votes , as i proved in nihil respondes , pag. 3. he answereth now in his maledicis , pag. 4. i deny an institution ; i assent to prudence ; where is the self-contradiction now ? and pag. 5. the advice looks to jus divinum ; the parliament votes to prudence . sir , you have spoken evil for your self ; you have made the self-contradiction worse . will you acknowledge you own words in your sermon , pag 25. lay no more burthen of government upon the shoulders of ministers then christ hath plainly laid upon them ; have no more hand therein then the holy ghost clearly gives them . the ministers have other work to do , & such as will take up the whole man , &c. i fear an ambitious ensnarement , &c. and in your re-examination , p. 14. he should have said , i advised the parliament to lay no burthen of government upon them whom he this commissioner thinks church-officers , then had he spoken true . now let the reverend brother take heed to check-meat ; and that three several wayes ( but let him not grow angry as bad players use to do ; ) for 1. eo ipso , that he denies the institution , by his principles he denies the prudence ; for he that denieth the institution , and adviseth the parliament to lay no more burthen of government upon ministers then christ hath plainly laid upon them , is against the setling of the thing in a prudential way , because it is not instituted . but master coleman denies the institution and adviseth the parliament to lay no more burthen of government upon ministers then christ hath plainly laid upon them . ergo , master coleman is against the setling of the thing in a prudential way , because it is not instituted . and how to reconcile this with his denying of the institution , and yeelding of the prudence , will require a more reconciling head then manasseh ben israel conciliator himself . 2. he that adviseth the parliament to lay no burthen of government upon ministers , because they have other work to do which will take up the whole man ▪ and because of the fear of an ambitious ensnarement , is against the laying of any burthen of corrective government upon ministers , so much as in a prudential way . but master coleman adviseth ▪ the parliament ▪ &c. ergo , the consequence in the proposition is necessary , unlesse he will say that it is agreeable to the rules of prudence , to lay upon them more work besides that which will take up the whole man , or to commit that power unto them , which is like to prove an ambitious ensnarement . 3. he that adviseth the parliament to lay no burthen at all of corrective government upon ministers and other officers joyned with them in elderships , but to keep that power wholly in their own hands , is against the prudence of the thing , as well as against the institution of it . but master coleman adviseth the parliament to lay no burthen at all of corrective government upon these , but to keep that power wholly in their own hands . ergo . the proposition is proved by that which himself saith , the parliament votes look to prudence . so that the parliament having voted a power of suspension from the sacrament , unto elderships , for so many scandals as are enumerate in the ordinance ( which power is a part of that which he calls corrective ) he that is against this power in elderships , is both against the prudence and against the ordinance of parliament . the assumption i prove from his re-examination , pag. 14. where after his deniall of the power to those whom we think church-officers , being charged with advising the parliament to take church-government wholly into their own hands , his answer was , if you mean the corrective power , i do so . and now after all this , i must tell the reverend brother that he might have saved himself much labour , had he in his sermon to the parliament declared himself ( as now he doth ) that he was onely against the jus divinum , but not against their setling of the thing in a parliamentary and prudential way . did i not in my very first examination of his sermon pag. 32. remove this stumbling block ? and withall , seeing he professeth to deny the jus divinum of a church-government differing from magistracy , why doth he hold p. 19. that the independents are not so much interested against his principles as the presbyterians ? did he imagine that the independents are not so much for the jus divinum of a church-government and church-censures as the presbyterians ? but , saith he , the independents church-power seems to me to be but doctrinall . but is their excommunication doctrinall ? and do they not hold excommunication to be jure divino ? either he had little skill in being perswaded , or some others had great skill in perswading him that the independents church-power is but doctrinall , and that they are not so much interested against the erastian principles as the presbyterians are , as if forsooth the ordinance of excommunication ( the thing which the erastian way mainly opposeth ) and a church-government distinct from magistracy , were not common to them both . lastly , if the reverend brother deny the institution of church-censures , but assent to the prudence , why doth he alledge the zurick divines to be so much for him ? maledicis p. 23. for it was upon prudentiall grounds , and because of the difficulty and ( as they conceived ) impossibility of the thing , that they were against it , still acknowledging the scripturall warrants for excommunication , as i shall shew , yea have shewed already . so that if master coleman will follow them , he must rather say , i assent to an institution , i deny a prudence . chap. ii. a confutation of that which master coleman hath said against church-government ; shewing also that his last reply is not more but lesse satisfactory then the former , and for the most part is but a tergiversation and fleeing from arguments brought against him , and from making good his own assertions and arguments , concerning the distinction of civill and church-government . 1. the reverend brother said in his sermon , i could never yet see how two coordinate governments exempt from superiority and inferiority can be in one state . to overthrow this general thesis , i brought some instances to the contrary , as the governments of a general and an admiral , of a master and a father , of a captain and a master in a ship . he being put to his vindication , replyeth , the commissioner acknowledgeth he did not apply them to the assembly ( i said the general assembly ) and parliament ; yet that was the controversie in hand , male dicis pag. 5. but by his favour , that was not the controversie , for he was not speaking particularly against the distinction of the government of the general assembly , and of the government of the parliament ( neither had he one syllable to that purpose ) but generally against the distinction of church government , and civil government , and particularly against excommunication , in all which , he excluded presbyteries as well as general assemblies . wherefore he doth now recede not onely from defending his thesis , but from applying it against the power of presbyteries . and so far we are agreed . 2. i having confuted his argument grounded on psal. 33. 15. prov. 27. 19. he shifteth the vindication of it , and still tells me he grounded no argument on those places , but spake by way of allusion , male dicis p. 6. now let the reader judge . his words to the parliament were these , might i measure others by my self , and i know not why i may not , ( god fashions mens hearts alike ; and as in water , face answers face , so the heart of man to man : ) i ingenuously professe i have a heart that knows better how to be governed , then govern ; i fear an ambitious ensnarement , &c. this argument there largely prosecuted , hath no other ground but the parenthesis using the words ( though not quoting the places ) of scripture . and now forsooth ▪ he hath served the parliament well ▪ when being put to make good the sole confirmation of his argument , he tells it was but an allusion . but this is not all ▪ i confuted the whole argument , drawn from his own heart to the hearts of others , and gave several answers : but neither before nor now , hath he offered to make good his argument . 3. the reverend brother cited 1 cor. 10. 33. to prove that all government is either , a heathenish government , or a jewish government , or a church government . this i denyed , because the government of generals , admirals , majors , sheriffs , is neither a jewish government , nor a church government , nor a heathenish government . what saith he to this ? i deny it , a jewish general is a jewish government , &c. male dicis p. 6. deny it : no sir , you must prove ( because you are the affirmer ) that a christian general , a christian admiral , are church governments . for i deny it : you tell us pag. 7. you are perswaded it will trouble the whole world to bound civil and ecclesiastical jurisdiction , the one from the other . you shall have them bounded and distinguished ere long , and the world not troubled neither . mean while you have not made out your assertion from 1. cor. 10. 33. 4. the reverend brother had cited rom. 13. 4. to prove that the corrective part of church government belongs to the christian magistrate . and now he brings in my reply thus , that i said he abuseth the place , because spiritual censures belong not to the civil magistrate : which saith he , begs the question , male dicis p. 7. i replyed no such thing upon this argument : look my words again . how can the brother answer it , to shape answers of his own devising , as if they were mine . my answer was , that the punitive part rom. 13. 4. belongs to all magistrates , whether christian or infidel , which he takes notice of in the second place , and bids me prove that scripture-commands belong to infidels : not observing that the question is not of scripture-commands , but whether a duty mentioned in this or that scripture , may not belong to infidels . there are two sort of duties in scripture , some which are duties by the law of god , written in mans heart at his creation , some principles and notions whereof remain in the hearts of all nations , even infidels by nature ; other duties are such by vertue of special commands given to the church , which are not contained in the law of nature . the first sort ( of which the punishing of evil doers mentioned , rom. 13. 4. is one ) belongs to those that are without the church , as well as those within . the other onely to those that are within . 5. the reverend brother had said in his sermon ; of other governments besides magistracy , i finde no institution . i cited 1 thes. 5. 12. 1 tim. 5. 17. heb. 13. 7 , 17. to prove another government ( yea , the institution of another government ) besides magistracy . and in my nihil respondes , i told he had laughed , but had not yet loosed the knot . now hear his two answers , male dicis p. 8. first , for the institution , for the commissioner affirms so much . had he said that these texts hold out an office or officer already instituted , the words would have bourn him out , &c. but the institution in this place i cannot see . see the like in master hussey , p. 19. 22. i thank them both . that scripture which supposeth an institution , and holds out an office already instituted , shall to me ( and i am confident to others also ) prove an institution ; for no text of scripture can suppose or hold out that which is not true : nay , hath master coleman forgotten that himself proved an institution of magistracy from rom. 13. 1 , 2 ? yet that text doth but hold out the office of magistracy already instituted : but the institution it self is not in that place . secondly , master coleman answereth to all these three texts . to that 1 thes. 5. 12. them which are over you in the lord , he saith that these words prove not that it is not meant of magistracy . but he takes not the strength of the argument . my words were , here are some who are no civil magistrates set over the thessalonians in the lord . this the reverend brother must admit to be a good proof , or otherwise say , that the civil magistrates set over the thessalonians , though they were heathens , yet were set over them in the lord . for that of 1 tim. 5. 17. he saith it doth not hold out ruling elders : whether it doth hold ruling elders or not , doth not at all belong to the present question . it is easie to answer something , so that a man will not tie himself to speak to the point . the place was brought by me to prove another government beside magistracy , which he denyed . now suppose the place to be meant onely of preaching elders , yet here is a rule or government , elders that rule well ; and these are no civil magistrates , but such as labour in the word and doctrine . come on now . but i will deal clearly , saith the brother , these officers are ministers , which are instituted not here but elsewhere , and these are the rulers here mentioned . and so have i loosed the knot . now sir , you shall see i will not male dicere , but bene dicere . my blessing on you for it . you have at last loosed the knot so perfectly , that you are come to an agreement with me , in this great point : which i thus demonstrate . he that acknowledgeth ministers to be instituted rulers , acknowledgeth another instituted government , beside magistracy . but master coleman acknowledgeth ministers to be instituted rulers . ergo , master coleman acknowledgeth another instituted government beside magistracy . to the other texts , heb. 13. 7. 17. he saith nothing against my argument , onely expounds the rulers to be guides , as master hussey also doth , of which , more elsewhere . mean while it is certain , that {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} is usually taken for a name of highest authority , yea , given to emperours , for which , see learned salma●ius in his walo messalinus , pag. 219 , 220. it is josephs highest title to expresse his government of egypt , acts 7. 10. it must the rather be a name of government , and authority in this place , heb. 13. 17. because subjection and obedience is required . obey them that have the rule over you , and submit your selves . when the word signifieth {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} sen viae ducem ( and it is very rarely so used by the septuagints , but frequently and almost in innumerable places , they use it for a name of rule and authority ) obedience and subjection is not due to such a one qua talis ; for obedience and subjection cannot be correlata to the leading of the way , when it is without authority and government . 6. i having charged master colemans doctrine with this consequence , that there ought to be neither suspension from the sacrament , nor excommunication , nor ordination , nor deposition of ministers , nor receiving of appeals , except all these things be done by the civil magistrate : which things i said , are most of them corrective , and all of them more then doctrinal . in stead of making answer , the reverend brother expresseth the error which i objected to him thus , that here are no church-censures , which is the quaesitum saith he , male dicis , pag. 10. here again he brings an imagination of his own , both for matter and words , in stead of that which i said , and doth not take the argument right . if the ministers power be meerly doctrinal , and government wholly in the magistrates hands , then all the particulars enumerated , for instance , suspension from the sacrament , and the receiving of appeals ( which he must not bring under the quaesitum , except he bring the ordinance of parliament under the quaesitum ) shall be wholly in the magistrates hand , and elderships may not suspend from the sacrament , classes and synods may not receive appeals , which yet by the ordinance they have power to do . one of the particulars ( and but one ) the reverend brother hath here touched , and it is thus ; for ordination of ministers , i say it is within the commission of teaching , and so appertains to the doctrinal part . this is the effect of his zeal to maintain , that all ecclesiastical ministerial power is meerly doctrinal . but mark the consequence of it . he that holds ordination of ministers to be within the commission of teaching , and to appertain to the doctrinal part , must hold by consequence ▪ that the power of ordination is given uni as well as unitati , that is , that every single minister hath power to ordain , as well as the classis . but master coleman holds ordination of ministers to be within the commission of teaching , &c. the reason of the proposition is clear , because the commission of teaching belongs to every single minister ; so that if the power of ordination be within that commission , it must needs belong to every single minister , quid respondes ? 7. the reverend brother having brought an odious argument against me , which did conclude , the magistrate to manage his office for and under the divel , if not for and under christ . i shew his syllogism to have four terms , and therefore worthy to be exploded . i get now two replies . first , this is an errour ( if one ) in logick , not divinity ; is it an errour in divinity to make a syllogism with four terms ? male dicis , pag. 15. see now if he be a fit man to call others to school , who puts an if in this businesse . if one ; who did ever doubt of it ? and if it be an errour in divinity to be fallacious , and to deceive , then it is an errour in divinity to make a syllogism with four terms , yea , as foul an errour as can be . secondly , he admitteth not my distinction ▪ of those words under christ , and for christ . i said the christian magistrate is under christ , and for christ , that is , he is serviceable to christ : but he is not under christ , nor for christ , as christs vicegerent vice christi , in christs stead as christ is mediator . the reverend brother saith , he foresaw that this would be said ( the greater fault it was to make his argument so unclear and undistinct ) but he rejecteth the distinction , as being distinctio sine differentia . if a magistrate , saith he , be thru far a servant of christ as mediator , that he is to do his work , to take part with him , to be for his glory ; then he doth it vice christi : he addes the simile of a servant : hence it follows , by the reverend brothers principles , that the kings cook , because he doth work and service for the king , therefore he doth it vice regis , and as the kings vicegerent : likewise , that a servant who obeyeth his masters wife , and executeth her commands , because it is his masters will , and for his masters honour , doth therefore obey his masters wife vice domini , as his masters vicegerent ; and by consequence , that the duty of obedience to the wife , doth originally belong to the husband ; for the capacity of a vicegerent , which he hath by his vicegerentship , is primarily the capacity of him whose vicegerent he is . these and the like absurd consequences will unadvoidably follow , upon the reverent brothers argumentation , that he who doth christ service , doth it vice christi , as christs vicegerent ; and that to be a mans vicegerent , and to do a mans work or service ( which i made two different things ) are all one . but further observe his tergiversation . i had pag. 13. proved my distinction out of these words of his own . the commissioner saith magistracy is not derived from christ : i say , magistracy is given to christ to be serviceable in his kingdom . so that though the commissioners assertion be sound ( which in due place will be discussed ) yet it infringeth nothing that i said . i asked therefore , quâ fide he could confound in his argument brought against me , those two things which himself had so carefully distinguished . there is no reply to this in male dicis . when the brother thought it for his advantage , he denied that the magistrate his being serviceable to christ , doth infer the derivation of his power by a commission of vicegerentship from christ ( for that was the derivation spoken of ) and yeelded that the magistrate may be said to be serviceable to christ , though his power be not derived from christ . now he denyeth the very same distinction for substance . 8. whereas the reverend brother had told the parliament , that he seeth not in the whole bible any one act of that church government which is now in controversie . i brought some scriptural instances against his opinion , not losing either the argument from matth. 18. ( concerning which , he asketh what is become of it ) or other scriptural arguments , which i intend by gods assistance to prosecute elsewhere . now hear what is replyed to the instances which were given : first to that 1 cor. 5. 13. put away that wicked person from among you ; his answer is , i say , and it is sufficient against the commissioner , if this be a church censure , then the whole church joyntly , and every particular person hath power of church censure , male dicis pag. 10. i hope sir , it is not sufficient against me , that you say it , so long as you say nothing to prove it . i told you that master prynne himself ( who holds not that every particular person hath power of church censure ) acknowledgeth that text to be a warrant for excommunication . and when you say every particular person , you say more then the independents say ; and i am sure , more then the text will admit ; for the text saith , put away from among you : therefore this power was given not uni ▪ but unitati . and this unitas was the presbytery of corinth , the sentence was inflicted {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} by many , 2 cor. 2. 6 , it is not said by all . i might say much for this ; but i will not now leave the argument in hand ; for it is enough against master coleman , that the place prove an act of church government , flowing from a power , not civil , but ecclesiastical . to whom the power belonged , is another question . to the next instance from 2 cor. 2. 6. ( which is coincident with the former ) a punishment or censure inflicted by many . it is onely a reprehension , saith he , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , which by all the places in the new testament , ●an amount no higher then to an objurgation , and so it doctrinal . answ . 1. he made it even now an act of the whole church joyntly , and of every particular person . why did he not clear himself in this , how the whole church , men , women , children , and all did doctrinally reprehend him ? 2. if the objurgation must be restricted , to whom ? not to a single minister ( yet every single minister hath power of doctrinal objurgation ) but to the presbytery , it was an act of those {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} i spake of ; and this is a ground for that distinction between ministerial and presbyterial admonition which master coleman , pag. 22. doth not admit . 3. if it were granted that {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} in this text amounteth to no more but an objurgation . yet our argument stands good ; for the apostle having in his first epistle required the corinthians , to put away from among them that wicked person , which they did accordingly resolve to do ( which makes the apostle commend their obedience , 2 cor. 2. 9. ) no doubt either the offender was at this time actually excommunicated and cast out of the church , or ( as others think ) they were about to excommunicate him , if the apostle had not by his second epistle prevented them , and taken them off with this sufficit ; such a degree of censure is enough , the party is penitent , go no higher . 4 when the reverend brother appealeth to all the places in the new testament , he may take notice that the word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} is no where found in the new testament , except in this very text . and if his meaning be concerning the verb {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , he may finde it used to expresse a coercive power , as in christs rebuking of the windes and waves , matth. 8. 26. mark 4. 39. his rebuking of the fever . luke 4. 39. his rebuking of the divel ( which was not a doctrinal , but a coercive rebuke ) mark 1. 25. and 9 25. luke 4. 35. and 9. 42. sometimes it is put for an authoritative charge , laying a restraint upon a man , and binding him from liberty in this or that particular , as matth. 12. 16. mark 3. 12. and 8. 30. luke 9. 21. the word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} i finde in the apocryphal book of wisdom , chap. 3. ●0 . it is said of the wicked {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} they shall have correction or punishment . the whole chapter maketh an opposition between the godly and the wicked , in reference to punishments and judgements . the hebrew {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ( which if the observation hold which is made by arias montanus , and divers others following kimchi , when it is construed with {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} signifieth ●bjurgavit , duriter reprehendit ; when without {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , it signifieth corrupit , perdidit , or maledixit ) the septuagints do most usually turn it {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , and that in some places where it is without {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , as psal. 119. 21. thou hast rebuked the proud , that are cursed ; {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . pagnin , disperdidisti , thou hast destroyed , so the sence is , it is rebuke with a judgement or a curse upon them : the second part of the verse in the greek is exegetical to the first part . thou hast rebuked the proud : {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , cursed are they , &c. so zech. 3. 2. the lord rebuke ( {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) thee o satan . ( the same phrase is used in jude vers. 9. ) which must needs be meant of a coercive efficacious divine power restraining satan . the same original word they render by {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , ( which signifieth to separate and to excommunicate ) mal. 2. 3. behold i will corrupt your seed &c. in the preceeding words god told them that he would curse them . the same word they render by {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , extermino , isa. 17. 13. a place which speaks of a judgement to be inflicted , not of a doctrinall reproof . yet aquila readeth there {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . likewise the word which the septuagints render {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , perdition , prov. 13. 1. and {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , wrath , isa. 51. 20. in other places they render it {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , as psal. 76. 6. at thy rebuke o god of jacob , both the chariot and horse are cast into a dead sleep . psal. 80. 16. they perish at the rebuke of thy countenance . these are reall rebukes , that is , judgements and punishments . 4. what saith master coleman to pasor , who expounds {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} to be the same with {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , mulcta , and that 2 cor. 2. 6. it is meant of excommunication , which he proves by this reason , because in the same place the apostle exhort the corinthians to forgive him . adde hereunto erasmus his observation upon the word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , ( vers. 8. to confirm your love towards him ) that it implies an authoritative ratification of a thing by judiciall suffrage and sentence . which well agreeth to the {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} vers. 6. that is , that they who had judicially censured him , should also judicially loose him and make him free . now therefore the circumstances and context being observed , and the practice 2 cor. 2. 6. compared with the precept 1 cor. 5. 13. i conclude that whether this {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} was excommunication already inflicted , or whether it was a lesser degree of censure tending to excommunication ; a censure it was , and more then ministeriall objurgation . and it is rightly rendred by the english translators punishment or censure . which well agreeth with the signification of the verb {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , given us by hesychius , and by julius pollux who makes {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} to punish or chastise , and {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} punishment or chastisement . clemens alexandrinus useth {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} as well as {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} pro poena vel supplicio . so stephanus in thes. ling. gr. from all which it may appear that the text in hand holds forth a corrective church-government , in the hands of church-officers ; the thing which master coleman denieth . to the next instance from 1 tim. 5. 19. against an elder receive not an accusation but before two or three witnesses : the reverend brother answereth , it is either in relation to the judgement of charity , or ministeriall conviction , as the verses following . answ . 1. that of two or three witnesses , is taken from the law of moses , where it is referred onely to a forensicall proceeding . but in relation either to the judgement of charity , or ministeriall conviction , it is not necessary that there be two or three witnesses . if a scandalous sin be certainly known to a minister , though the thing be not certified by two or three witnesses , yet a minister upon certain knowledge had of the fact , may both beleeve it , and ministerially convince the offender . but there may not be a consistoriall proceeding without two or three witnesses . 2. since he appealeth to the following verses , let vers . 22. decide it : lay hands suddenly on no man . to whom the laying on of hands or ordination did belong , to them also it did belong to receive an accusation against an elder : but to the presbytery did belong the laying on of hands or ordination , 1 tim. 4. 14. ergo , to the presbytery did belong the receiving of an accusation against an elder . and so it was not the act of a single minister , as ministeriall conviction is . to the last instance from rev. 2. 14 , 15 , 〈…〉 the reverend brother answers that he had striven to find out how church-censures might be there grounded , but was constrained to let it alone . but what is it in his opinion which is there blamed in the angels of those churches ? doth he imagine that those who are so much commended by christ himself for their holding fast of his name and of the true faith , did not so much as doctrinally or ministerially oppose the foul errours of the balaamites and of jezebel ? no doubt but this was done : but christ reproves them because such scandalous persons were yet suffered to be in the church , and were not cast out . i have a few things against thee because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of balaam : and vers. 20. thou sufferest that woman jezebel . and why was the very having or suffering them in the church a fault , if it had not been a duty to cast them out of the church ? which casting out could not be by banishment , but by excommunication . it did not belong to the angell to cast out the balaamites out of pergamos : but he might and ought to have cast them out of the church in pergamos . 9. master coleman hath another passage against the distinction of church-censures and civill punishments . but what are ecclesiasticall censures , saith he , ( let us take a taste ) is deposition from the ministery ? this kings have done &c. maledicis p. 7. now similia l●bra lactucis . but for all that , the taste is vitiated , and doth not put a difference between things that are different . deposition is sometimes taken improperly for expulsion , as balsamon in conc. nicae● . can. 19. doth observe . and so the christian magistrate may remove or put away ministers when they deserve to be put away ; that is , by a coercive power to restrain them , imprison or banish them ; and in case of capitall crimes , punish them with capitall punishments . king james having once heard a dispute in saint andrews about the deposition of ministers , was convinced that it doth not belong to the civill magistrate ; yet , said he , i can depose a ministers head from his shoulders . which was better divinity then this of master coleman . if we take deposition properly , as it is more then the expelling , sequestring , or removing of a minister from this or that place , and comprehendeth that which the councel of an●yra can. 18. cals {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the honour of presbytership to be taken away ; or a privation of that presbyteratus the order of a presbyter , and that {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} the authority and power of dispensing the word , sacraments , and discipline , which was given in ordination : so none have power to depose who have not power to ordain . it belongeth not to the magistrate either to make or unmake ministers . therefore in the ancient church , the bishops had power of the deposition as well as of the ordination of presbyters : yet they were bound up that they might not depose either presbyter or deacon , without the concurrence of a presbytery or synod in the businesse . mark of the synod , not of the magistrate . as for the testimonies brought by master coleman , he doth both here and in diverse other places name his authors , without quoting the places . it seems he hath either found the words cited by others , but durst not trust the quotations , or else hath found somewhat in those places which might make against him . however all that he can cite of that kinde concerning deposition of ministers by emperors , i● meant of a coercive expulsion , not of that which we call properly deposition . and to this purpose let him take the observation of * a great antiquary . and withall he may take notice that protestant writers do disclaime the magistrates power of deposing ministers ; and hold that deposition is a part of ecclesiasticall jurisdiction : ministers being alwayes punishable ( as other members of the common-wealth ) according to the law of the land , for any offence committed against law . chap. 3. that master colemans and master husseys opposing of church-government , neither is , nor can be reconciled with the solemne league and covenant . master colemans doctrine was by me charged to be a violation of the solemne league and covenant . this he acknowledged in his re-examination , page 13. 17. to be a very grievous charge , and a greater fault in him then in divers others , if made out : and he desired seriously , yea challenged it by the right of a christian , and by the right of a minister , that i should prosecute this charge ; whereupon i did in my nihil respondes prosecute it so farre , that by five strong arguments i did demonstrate the repugnancy of his doctrine to the covenant . about a moneth afterward comes out master husseys booke , wherein the charge it selfe ( before desired to be prosecuted ) is declined expresly by master coleman in the few lines by him prefixed ( which are ranked together with the errata ) in which he desires that the argumentative part may be so prosecuted , as that the charge of covenant-breaking may be laid aside , which if it be taken up , he lets me know before-hand it shall be esteemed by them a nihil respondes . it is also declined by mr. hussey , page 15. the argument of the covenant is too low to be thought on in this discourse : we are now in an higher region then the words of the covenant , &c. a tenent lookt upon by the reformed churches , as proper to those that are inspired with the ghost of arminius , for the remonstrants both at and after the synod of dort , did cry downe the obligation of all nationall covenants , oaths , &c. in matters of religion , under the colour of taking the scripture onely for a rule . well , we see the charge declined as nothing ; but this is not all : almost two moneths after my proofe of the charge , mr. coleman comes out with his maledicis , and declines both the charge it selfe ( which he calls an impertinent charge , pag. 22. ) and my five arguments too , without so much as taking notice of them , or offering replies to them ; yea all that i said in my nihil respondes , pag. 27 , 28 , 29 , 30 , 31 , 32 , 33 , 34. in prosecution of this argument concerning covenant-breaking , the reverend brother hath skipped over sicco pede in the halfe of one page , viz. pag. 23. all that followes is new and other matter , wherein he did not minde his owne answer to the learned viewer , pag. 33. i will keepe you to the lawes of disputation , and will not answer but as it is to the matter in hand , i leave it to be judged by men of knowledge and piety , whether such a one , doth not give them some ground to apprehend that he is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , that is self-judged , who first calleth so eagerly for making out a charge against him , and then when it is made out doth decline the charge , and not answer the arguments ; and such as esteeme the charge of covenant-breaking to be a nihil respondes , and the argument of the covenant too low to be thought on in a controversie about church-government , o my soule , come not thou into their secret , unto their assembly , my glory , be not thou united . it is in vaine for them to palliat or shelter their covenant-breaking , with appealing from the covenant to the scripture , for subordinata non pugnant . the covenant is norma recta , a right rule , though the scripture alone be norma recti , the rule of right . if they hold the covenant to be unlawfull , or to have any thing in it contrary to the word of god , let them speake out . but to professe the breach of the covenant to be a grievous and great fault , and worthy of a severe censure , and yet to decline the charge and proofes thereof , is a most horrible scandall ; yea , be astonished o yee heavens at this , and give eare o earth ! how small regard is had to the oath of god , by men professing the name of god . as for that little which the reverend brother hath replyed unto , first he takes notice of a passage of his sermon at the taking of the covenant , which i had put him in minde of , but he answereth onely to one particular , viz. concerning that clause , doubtlesse many materialls of prelacy must of necessity be retained as absolutely necessary . i asked what he understood by this clause ? now observe his answer . i answer ingenuously , as he desires , and fully , as i conceive , these materialls of prelacy are ordination . remember you said , many materialls of prelacy . i beseech you sir , how many is ordination ? ordination , ordination , ordination ; tell on till you thinke you have made many materialls ; and withall tell us ( if this be the meaning , that ordination should be retained without any power of ecclesiasticall government in the ministery : ) how was it imaginable that he could hereby satisfie that scruple which then he spoke to , viz. the scruple about the purging away of the exorbitancies of prelacy , and retaining a regulated prelacy ? and after all this , i shall desire him to expound that other clause ( which i desired before , but he hath not done it ) taking away ( said he ) the exorbitancies , the remaining will be a new government , and no prelacy . either he meanes this of a new church-government distinct from the civill , so that the ministery should have new power of government ; or he meant it of the way which now he pleads for . if the former , i have what i would . master coleman himselfe as well as other men took the covenant , with an intention to have an ecclesiasticall government distinct from the civill . if the latter , then let him answer these two things . 1. what good sence there was in applying such an answer to such a scruple , as if the erastian way , or the appropriating of all ecclesiasticall jurisdiction wholly to the civill magistrate , could be the way to satisfie those who scrupled the totall abolition of prelacy . 2. how will he reconcile himselfe with himselfe , for here pag. 22. he saith , that his way was in practice before i was borne , and the constant practice of england alwaies . this , as it is a most notorious untruth ( for the constant practice of england hath granted to the clergy ( as he calls them after the popish dialect ) a power of deposition and excommunication , whereas his way denies all corrective power , or church-censures to the ministery ) so if it were a truth , it is utrerly inconsistent with that which he said of the remaining part , namely , that it will be a new government . if it be his way , how will he make it the constant practice of england alwaies , and a new government too ? in the next place the reverend brother makes short work of my five arguments , to prove the repugnancy of his doctrine to the solemne league and covenant . they were too hot for him to be much touched upon , all is but this much , saith he , the covenant mentioneth and supposeth a distinct church-government . it is hard when arguments are neither repeated nor answered . he repeats a point which was proved ( and but a part of that ) but not the proofes . and so he answereth ( rather to the conclusion then to the arguments ) these two things . first , saith he , the expressions in the covenant are according to the generall apprehensions of the times , which tooke such a thing for granted ; yet i beleeve master gillespie cannot make such a supposition obligatory . now you yeeld sir what before you eagerly contended against , viz. that the covenant doth suppose a church-government . remember your simile of the jury sworne to enquire into the felony of a prisoner , which oath doth not suppose the prisoner to be guilty of felony , but he is to be tried , guilty or not guilty . we are now so farre agreed , that the covenant doth suppose a church-government distinct from the civill government , and yet not meerly doctrinall , for that was the point which i proved , and which here he yeelds . as for the obligation of an oath sworne upon such supposition , i answer . 1. it is more then supposed , the words and expressions of the covenant doe plainly hold out the thing as i proved , and as the reverend brother seemes here to yeeld . 2. that which an oath doth necessarily suppose , if the oath be lawfull , and the thing supposed lawfull , is without all controversie obligatory . now the reverend b●other doth acknowledge both the covenant it selfe , to be a lawfull oath , and that which the covenant supposeth , namely a church-government distinct from the civill government , and yet not meerly doctrinall to be a lawfull thing , for he professeth to yeeld it ( though not jure divino , yet ) in prudence , which he cannot doe , if he make the thing unlawfull . 3. that which an oath doth suppose is sometimes supposed vi materiae , or consequentiae , that is , the words of the oath doe necessarily imply such a thing , though it be not intended by the swearer ; and here i will tell master coleman one story of alexander for another . when alexander was comming against a towne to destroy it , he met anaximenes , who ( as he understood ) came to make intercession and supplication for sparing the towne , alexander preventeth him with an oath , that he would not doe that thing which anaximenes should make petition for , whereupon anaximenes made petition that he would destroy the towne , alexander found himselfe bound by the plaine words of his oath to doe what he intended , and so did forbeare . and to adde a divine story to an humane , joshua , and the princes of israel did sweare to the gibeonites upon a supposition that was not true , yet they found themselves tyed by their oath . so he that sweareth to his owne hurt must not change , the oath being otherwise lawfull , psal. 15. 4. yet that selfe hurt which is wrapped up in the matter of his oath was not intended in swearing . sometimes againe , that which is supposed and implyed in an oath lyeth also in the thoughts and intention of those that sweare . now where those two are co-incident ; that is , where the thing supposed in an oath is both implyed necessarily in the words of the oath , and is also according to the apprehensions of those that sweare ( which is the case here in the covenant , and is acknowledged by the reverend brother ) i should thinke it most strange how any divine can have the least doubt concerning the obligation of such a thing , except he conceive the thing it selfe to be unlawfull . his second answer is this , in my way , saith he , the governments civill and ecclesiasticall , are in the subject matter clearly distinct ; when the parliament handles matters of warre it is a military court ; when businesse of state , it is a civill court ; when matters of religion , it is an ecclesiasticall court . if this hold good , then it will follow . 1. that the parliament when they deliberate about matters of warre , or matters of religion , are not ( at least formally and properly ) a civill court ; else how makes he these so clearly distinct ? 2. that ministers may be called civill officers ; for consider his words in his re-examination , pag , 11. i doe not exclude mininisters , neither from ecclesiasticall nor civill government , in a ministeriall way , doctrinally and declaratively . compare this with his present answer , it will amount to thus much , that different denominations being taken from the different subject matter , ministers when they handle doctrinally matters of religion , are ecclesiasticall ministers ; and when they handle doctrinally matters of civill government , ( which himselfe alloweth them to doe , ) they are civill ministers . but now to apply his answer to the argument ; how doth all this salve the repugnancy of his doctrine to the covenant ? if he had examined my arguments , he had found that most of them proove from the covenant , a church-government distinct from civill government , suctjective as well as objective , that is , another government besides magistracy ; different agents , as well as different acts ; different hands , as well as handling of different matters : i know the christian magistrate may and ought to have a great influence into matters of religion ; and whatsoever is due to him by the word of god , or by the doctrine either of the antient or reformed churches ; i doe not infringe , but doe maintaine and strengthen it . but the point in hand is , that the covenant doth undeniably suppose , and clearly hold forth a government in the church , distinct from magistracy , which is proved by these arguments ; ( which ▪ as they are not yet answered , so i will briefly apply them to the proofe of that point which now master coleman sticks at , ) 1. the church government mentioned in the covenant , is as distinct from the priviledges of parliament , as the first article of the covenant is distinct from the third article . 2. the church-government in the first article of the covenant , the reformation wherof we are to endeavour , differeth from church-government by archbishops , bishops , &c. mentioned in the second article , as much as a thing to be reformed differeth from a thing to be extirpated ; so that the church-government formerly used in the church of england , is looked upon two waies in the covenant , either qua church-government , and so we sweare to endeavour the reformation of it , ( which i hope was not meant of reforming that part of the priviledges of parliament , whereby they meddle with religion in a parliamentary way , ) or , qua church-government by arch-bishops , bishops , &c. and so we sweare to endeavour the extirpation of it . this difference / betweene the first and second articles , between reformation and extirpation , proveth that the covenant doth suppose , that the church-government formerly used in the church of england , in so far as it was a church-government , is not eatenus , to be abolished , but in so far as it was a corrupt church-government , that is , prelaticall , 3. church-government in the covenant is matched with doctrine , worship , and catechising ; now these are subjectively different from civill government for the civill magistrate doth not act doctrinally nor catechistically , neither can he dispence the word and sacraments as master coleman acknowledgeth . 4. in the first part of the first article of the covenant , concerning the preservation of the reformed religion in the church of scotland , in doctrine worship , discipline , and government , it is uncontroverted , that discipline and government are ecclesiasticall , and subjectively different from civill government , that is , though divers who have a hand in the civill government are ruling elders ; yet it is as true that divers members of parliament , and inferiour civill courts , are not church officers● ; and of the ministery none are civill governours , which makes the two governments clearly distinct subjective . now the second part of that article concerning the reformation of religion in the kingdomes of england and ireland in doctrine , worship , discipline , and government , cannot so farre differ from the first part of that article in the sense of the words , discipline and government , as that the same words in the same article of the same covenant should signifie things differing t●to genere , which will follow , unlesse discipline and government in the second branch , and forme of church-government in the third branch , be understood of the power of church officers , and not of the magistrate . 5. we did sweare to endeavour the reformation of religion in the kingdomes of england and ireland , in doctrine , worship , discipline and government , according to the word of god , and the example of the best reformed churches . now the word of god holds forth another government besides magistracy ; for master coleman himselfe hath acknowledged , that he findes in the new testament ministers to be rulers , yea instituted rulers . and the example of the best reformed churches ( without all doubt ) leadeth us to an ecclesiasticall government , different from magistracy . neither hath the reverend brother so much as once adventured to alledge the contrary , except of the church of israel , which as it heterogeneous , ( being none of the reformed churches mentioned in the covenant ) so it shall be discussed in due place . from all which reasons i conclude , that the wit of man cannot reconcile master colemans doctrine with the covenant . i adde , 6. a confutation of him out of himselfe thus . no such church-government as master coleman casts upon an uncertainty , whether the word hold out any such thing , can be by his principles the power of magistracy in things ecclesiasticall , but another government beside magistracy . but the church-government mentioned in the first article of the covenant , is such a church-government as master coleman casts upon an uncertainty , whether the word hold out any such thing . ergo , the church-government mentioned in the first article of the covenant , cannot be by his principles the power of magistracy , but another government beside magistracy ; the proposition he will easily admit , unlesse he alter his assertions ; the assumption is cleare from his re-examination , pag. 15. chap. iiii. master coleman and master hussey their errors in divinity . master hussey all along calls for divinity schoolrs ; i confesse himselfe hath much need of them , that he may be better grounded in his divinity ; and that if he will plead any more for christian magistracy , he may not involve himselfe into such dangerous heterodoxies as have fallen from his pen in this short tractate . i instance in these : first , in his epistle to the parliament , he hath divers passages against synodicall votes , he will have no putting to the vote ; for votes , saith he , pag. 6 are of no other use but to gather parties , and ought no where to be used but by those that have the power of the sword . and pag. 3. he will have the businesse of assemblies to be only doctrinall , and by dispute to finde out truth ; their disputes ought to end in a brotherly accord , as in act. 15. much disputing , but all ended in accord , no putting to the vote . and pag. 5. he will have things carried with strength , of argument and unanimous consent of the whole clergy . behold how he joyneth issue with the remonstrants against the contra-remonstrants , to introduce not onely an accademicall , but a scepticall and pyrrhonian dubitation and uncertainty , so that there shall never be an end of controversie , nor any settlement of truth and of the ordinances of jesus christ , so long as there shall be but one tenacious disputer to hold up the ball of contention . one egge is not liker another , then master husseys tenent is like that of the arminians , for which see the synod of dort sess. 25. it was the nin●h condition which the arminians required in a lawfull and well constituted synod , that there might be no decision of the controverted articles , but onely such an accommodation as both sides might agree to . and generally they hold that synods ought not to meet for decision , or determination , but for examining , disputing , discussing . so their examen censurae , cap. 25. and their vindiciae , lib. 2. cap. 6. pag. 131. 133. secondly , in that same epistle to the parliament , pag. 4. he hath this passage ; will-worship is unlawfull , i meane in matters that are essentiall to gods worship , which are matters of duty , as for circumstantials of time and place ( except the sabbath ) which are matters of liberty , in these the common-wealth may vote , &c , and this is your christian liberty , that in matters of liberty yee make rules and lawes to your selves , not crossing the ends that you are tyed to in duty . and is the sabbath onely a circumstantiall of time contra-distinct from matters of duty ? it seemes he will cry downe not onely the jus divinum of church-censures with the erastians , but the jus divinum of the sabbath with the canterburians . and if will-worship be unlawfull onely in the essentialls of gods worship , why was the argument of will-worship so much tossed , not onely between prelates and non-conformists , but between papists and protestants , even in reference to ceremonies ? and whether hath not mr. hussey here ingaged himselfe to hold it free and lawfull to the christian magistrate , yea to private christians ( for he calls it christian liberty , not parliamentary liberty : now christian liberty belongs to all sorts of christians ) to make lawes to themselves for taking the sacrament anniversarily on christmasse , good-friday , and easter , or to appoint a perpetuall monethly fast , or thanksgiving : yea another parliament may ( if so it should seeme good to them ) impose againe the surplice and crosse in baptisme , fonts , railing of communion tables , the reading of divers passages of apocrypha to the congregation , doxologies , anthems , responsories , &c. as heretofore they were used : or they may appoint all and every one to sit in the church with their faces toward the east , to stand up at the epistles and gospels , &c. yea what ceremonies , jewish , popish , heathenish , may they not impose , provided they onely hold the foundation , and keepe to those essentials which he calls matters of duty : by restraining the unlawfulnesse of will-worship to the essentialls , he leaves men free to doe any thing in religion , pr●ter verbum , so that it appeare not to them to be c●ntra verbum ; any thing they may adde to the word , or doe beside the word , so that the thing cannot be proved contrary to the word . thirdly , mr. hussey , ibid. pag , 4. 5. saith , that the parliament may require such as they receive for preachers of truth , to send out able men to supply the places , and that without any regard to the allowance or dis-allowance of the people . where in the first part of that which he saith , there is either a heterodoxie , or a controdiction . a heterodoxie , if he meane that ministers are to be sent out without ordination : a contradiction , if he meane that they must be ordained ; for then he gives classes , a worke which is not meerly doctrinall . but most strange it is , that he so farre departeth from protestant divines in point of the churches liberty in chusing ministers , he tells us , pag. 14. that mr. herle for want of skill and theologicall disputations hath granted to people a right to chuse their minister . master herles skill both logicall and theologicall is greater then it seemes he can well judge of : neither can this bold arrogant censure of his derogate from mr. herles but from his owne reputation . for the matter it selfe , it is one and not the least of the controversies between the papists and protestants , what right the church hath in the vocation of ministers , read bellarmine de cleric . and those that writ against him , and see whether it be not so . the helvetick confession tells us that the right chusing of ministers is by the consent of the church , and the belgick confession saith , we beleeve that the ministers , seniors and deacons , ought to be called to those their functions , and by the lawfull elections of the church to be advanced into those roomes . see both these in the harmony of confessions , sect. 11. i might here ( if it were requisite ) bring a heape of testimonies from protestant writers , the least thing which they can admit of is , that a minister be not obtruded renitente ecclesia , factum valet , fieri non debet . it may be helped after it is done , without making null or void the ministery : but in a well constituted church there ought to be no intrusion into the ministery , the churches consent is requisite , for which also i might bring both scripture and antiquity : but that is not my present businesse . one thing i must needs put mr. hussey in minde of , that when the prelates did intrude ministers without any regard to the dis-allowance of the people , it was cried out against as an oppression and usurpation : and we are often warned by mr. prynne , by mr. coleman , and by my selfe , to cast away the prelates usurpation with themselves . but who lords it now over the lords inheritance , the presbyterians or the erastians ? nay he who will have ministers put in churches without any regard to the allowance or dis-allowance of people , falls farre short of divers prelaticall men , who did much commend the antient primitive forme of calling ministers , not without the churches consent . see dr. field of the church , lib. 5. cap. 54. bilson de gubern eccl. cap. 15. pag. 417. the author of the history of epic●pacy , part 2. pag. 360. fourthly , master hussey , epist. pag. 7. saith , that upon further consideration he found the minister charged onely with preaching , and baptizing . the like he hath afterwards , pag. 39. let any man prove that a minister hath any more to doe from christ then to teach and baptize . and againe , pag. 44. he propounds this quaere , whether christ gave any more government , ( he should have said any more to doe , for preaching and baptizing are not acts of government ) then is contained in preaching and baptizing , and he holds the negative . if only preaching and baptizing , then not praying , and reading in the congregation , ministring the lords supper , visiting the sick and particular families . fifthly , he holdeth , pag. 20. that a heathen magistrate is unlawfull , and for his government , if sinne be lawfull , it is lawfull . a grosse heterodoxie . the apostle exhorteth to be subject even to heathen magistrates , rom. 13. ( for there were no other at that time ) and to pray for them , 1 tim. 2. so that by mr. hu●sseys divinity the apostle would have men to be subject untoa and to pray for an unlawfull government . it is an an baptisticall tenent that an heathen magistrate is not from god : which gerhard de magistratu position , pag. 498. 499. fully confutes . sixthly , he saith of christ , pag. 40. he doth nothing as mediator , which he doth not as god , or as man . it is a dangerous mistake ; for take the worke of mediation it selfe , he neither doth it as god , nor as man , but as god-man . seventhly , he saith , pag. 35. nothing can be said of christ as second person in trinity in opposition to mediator , but in opposition to man there may . so that he will not admit of this opposition ; christ as the second person in the trinity is equall and consubstantiall to the father , but as mediator he is not equall to his father , but lesse then his father , and subject and subordinate to his father ; a distinction used by our divines against the antitrinitarians and socinians . now by his not admitting of this distinction , he doth by consequence myre himselfe in socinianisme , for christ as mediator is the fathers servant , isa 42. 1. and the father is greater then he , joh. 14. 28. and as the head of the man is christ , so the head of christ is god , 1 cor. 11. 3. if therefore it cannot be said of christ as he is the second person in the trinity , that his father is not greater then he , and that he is not subordinate to god as his head , then fare-well anti-socinianisme . i dare boldly say , it is impossible to confute the socinians , or to assert the eternall god-head of jesus christ , except somewhat be affirmed of him as the second person of the trinity , which must be denied of him as he is mediator , and something be denied of him as he is the second person in the trinity , which must be affirmed of him as he is mediator . eighthly , he saith , pag. 36. that christ by his mediation hath obtained from the father that he shall not judge any man according to rigor , but as they are in or out of christ ; all deferring of judgement from the wicked is in and for christ , which otherwise the justice of god would not allow . then christ did thus farre make satisfaction to the justice of god in the behalfe of the wicked , and dye for them , that judgement might be deferred from them : and thus farre performe acts of mediation for the savages , and mahumetans , and for them that never heard the gospell , that by such mediation he hath obtained of the father that they shall be judged not according to rigour , but by the gospel . which intimateth that christ hath taken away all their sinnes against the law , so that all men shall now goe upon a new score , and none shall be condemned or judged by the law , but by the gospell onely ; for if christ have not taken away their sinnes against the law , the justice of god will ●udge them according to the rigour of the law . must not every jot of the law be fulfilled ? and is there not a necessity that every one underlye the cusre and rigour of the law , o● el●e that the mediator hath underlyed it for them . ninthly , he propounds this quere , pag. 44. whether ministers have any right to those priviledges which are given to the church , more then another christian ; and he holds the negative . now the preaching of the word , and the administration of the sacraments , the power of the keyes are priviledges given to the church , that is for the churches good , for all things are yours , saith the apostle , whether paul , or apollo , &c. c. 1 cor. 3. 21 , 22. therefore by mr. husseys divinity , any other christian hath as much right to administer word , sacraments , keys , as the minister . come on now to mr. colemans errours in divinity , not to repeat what was expressed in my nihil respondes , but to take off the maledicis in the maine points . the tenth , heterodoxie shall therefore be this , that whatsoever is given to christ , he hath it not as the eternall son of god . into this ditch did mr. coleman first fall , and then mr. hussey , pag. 25. after him . i said this tenent leadeth to a blasphemous heresie . for the better understanding whereof let it be remembred what i did premise in my nihil respondes , pag. 11. in reply to his proposition , that which is given to christ he hath it not as god . this ( said i ) is in opposition to what i said , pag. 45. concerning the headship and dignity of christ , as the naturall son of god , the image of the inv●sible god , colossians , 1. 15. and pag. 43. of the dominion of christ , as he is the eternall sonne of god . this being premised , &c. mr. coleman without taking the least notice of that which i did purposely and plainly premise , begins to speake of god essentially , and that if something ma● be given to christ as god , then something may be given to god , and then god is not absolutely perfect , &c maledicis , pag. 13. 14. thus he turneth over to the essence and nature of god , what i spake of the second person in the trinity , or of christ as he is the eternall son of god . was not the question between him and me , whether the kingdome and dominion over all things may be said to be given to christ , as he is the eternall son of god ? this is the point which he did argue against , because it takes off his argument first brought to prove that all government even civill is given to christ , as he is mediator . and still from the beginning i spake of christ as the second person in trinity , or the eternall sonne of god . thus therefore the case stands ; the reverend brother to prove that an universall soveraignty and government over all things is given to christ , as he is mediator ; and to confute my assertion , that it is given to christ as he is the eternall sonne of god , doth frame this argument against me , that which is given to christ he hath it not as god . but here dignity is given to christ . therefore not here to be taken as god . where there is more in the conclusion then in the premisses , for the conclusion which naturally followes had been this , therefore christ hath not here dignity as god . it seemes he was ashamed of the conclusion , yet not of the premisses which inferre the conclusion . but this by the way . i speake to his proposition ; that which is given to christ he hath it not as god . these words , as god , either he understands {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} essentially , or {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} personally , that is , either in regard of the nature and essence of god , which is common to the sonne of god , with the father and the holy ghost , and in respect whereof they three are one , or in regard of the person of the word , as christ is the second person in the trinity , and personally distinct from the father and the holy ghost . if in the former sense , then he must lay aside his whole argument , as utterly impertinent , and making nothing at all against my theses , which affirmed that an universall dominion and kingdome over all things is given to christ , not as he is mediator , ( in which capacity he is onely king of the church , ) but as he is the eternall sonne of god . in opposing of which assertion , as the reverend brother was before nihil respondens , so now he is twice nought . but if in the other sense he understands his proposition , ( which i must needs suppose he doth , it being in opposition to what i said , ) then i still averre his proposition will inferre a blasphemous heresie , as i proved before by a cleare demonstration . that which is given to christ , he hath it not as god . but life , glory , &c. is given to christ ; ergo , christ hath not life , glory , &c. as god . the reverend brother saith , i acknowledge the conclusion unsound , and i deny not but that the major is mine owne , and the minor is the very scripture . yet he denies the conclusion , and cleares himselfe by this simile , that which was given this poore man , he had not before , but a shilling was given this poore man : ergo , he had not a shilling before . where both propositions are true , yet the conclusion is false , saith he , contrary to the axiome , ex veris nil nisi verum . you are extreamly out sir , your syllogisme of the poore man is fallacia ab amphibolia . the major of it is ambiguous , dubious , and fallacious , and cannot be admitted without a distinction . but here you acknowledge the major of my argument to be your owne , and so not fallacious in your opinion . you acknowledge the minor to be scripture . you have not found foure termes in my premisses , nor charged my major or minor with the least fault in matter or forme , and yet forsooth you denie the conclusion , and doe not admit that uncontrovertible maxime in logick , ex veris nil nisi●●rum , or as kekerman hath it . ex veris praemiss●s fal●●● conclusionem colligi est impossibile ; it is impossible that a false conclusion s●●uid be gathered from true premisses . now let us heare what he would say against my conclusion ; it is concerning the sense of the word hath , for hath , saith he , by me is used for receiving or having by vertue of the gift , but by him for having fundamentally , originally . you are still out sir ; i take it just as you take it ; for though the sonne of god , as god essentially , or in respect of the nature and essence of god , which is common to all three persons in the blessed trinity , hath originally of himselfe a kingdome and dominion over all , yet as he is the second person in trinity , begotten of , and distinct from the father , he hath the kingdome and dominion over all , not of himselfe , but by vertue of the gift of his father . so that the reverend brother is still nihil respondens , and therefore he shall be concluded in this syllogisme . he who holds that whatsoever is given to christ , he hath it not by vertue of the gift , as he is the eternall sonne of god , or second person in the trinity , but onely as mediator ; he holds by consequence , that christ hath not glory by vertue of his fathers gift , as he is the eternall sonne of god , or second person in the trinity . but master coleman holds the former , ergo , master coleman holds the latter . the consequence in the proposition is proved from joh. 7. 22. the glory which thou gavest me . the assumption he will owne , or else quit his argument against my distinction of the double kingdome given to christ , as the eternall sonne of god , and as mediator . the conclusion which followes is hereticall ; for wheras the nicen creed said that christ in regard of his eternall generation , that he is deus de deo , lumen de lumine , god of god , light of light ; master colemans argument will infe●●e that he is not onely ex seipso deus , but ex seipso filius ; and so denie the eternall generation of the sonne of god , and the communication of the godhead , and the soveraignty , glory , and attributes thereof , from the father to the sonne . for if christ , as he is the eternall sonne of god , hath not glory by vertue of his fathers gift , then he hath it not by vertue of the eternall generation and communication , but fundamentally and originally of himselfe . as for the other branch of master colemans argument , tending to prove , that christ as he is the eternall sonne of god cannot be given , which he indeavours to vindicate , pag. 14. 15. i answer these two things : first , granting all that he saith , he concludes nothing against me , for i did from the beginning expound those words , eph. 1. 22. and gave him to be the head over all things to the church , in this sence , that christ as mediator is given only to the church , to be her head , but he that is given as mediator to the church , is over all . so that the giving of christ there spoken of , is as mediator , and he is given to the church only , which i cleared by the syriak , and him who is over all , he gave to be the head to the church . but his being over all , there spoken of , if understood of glory , dignity , excellency over all , so christ is over all as mediator , ( yea in regard of the exaltation of his humane nature , ) and this helpeth not master coleman , who intends to prove from that place , that all government , even civill , is given to christ as mediator . but if understood of a kingdome and government , over all , so he is over all as he is the eternall sonne of god , or second person of the trinity , and not as mediator . secondly , the question which the reverend brother fals upon , concerning the personall inhabitation of the holy ghost , will never follow from any thing which i said , more then gods giving of his sonne to us , will inferre a personall inhabitation of the sonne of god in us . that which i said was to this intent , that both the sonne of god and the holy ghost are given , not as god essentially ; that is , in respect of the godhead it self , or as they are one in nature with the father , ( for so the father that giveth , and the holy ghost which is given , could not be distinguished ) but the sonne is given as the sonne proceeding from the father ; and the holy ghost is given as the holy ghost proceeding and sent from the father and the sonne ; whether he be given to dwell personally in us , or by his gracious operations onely , is another question , which hath nothing to doe with the present argument , and therefore i will not be led out of my way . the eleventh heterodoxy is this , i see an absurdity to hold that every man in authority is either christs vicegerent , or the divelo maledicis , pag. 16. here i make this inference ; heathen and infidell magistrates , either they are not men in authority ; or 2. they are christs vicegerents ; or 3. they are the divels maledicis . if he say they are not men in authority , he shall contradict the apostle paul , who cals them higher powers , rom. 13. 1. and men in activity , 1 tim. 2. 2. speaking in reference even to the magistrates of that time , which were infidels . if he say they are christs vicegerents , then 1. i must say , that christ as mediator reignes without the church , and is a king to those to whom he is neither priest nor prophet . 2. he must finde a commission given by christ to the infidell magistrate . 3. whom in authority will he make to be the divels vicegerents , if infidell magistrates be christs vicegerents ? if he say that they are the divels vicegerents , then it followes , 1. that they who resist the divels vicegerent , resist the ordinance of god , for they that resist an infidell magistrate and doe not submit to his lawfull authority , ( which his infidelity takes not away , ) is said rom. 13. v. 2. to resist the ordinance of god . 2. that the apostle paul bade pray for the divels vicegerent , 1 tim. 2. 1 , 2. the reverend brother doth but more and more winde himselfe into a lab erinth of errors , while he endeavours to take away the distinction of the two fold kingdome , and the two fold vicegerentship of god and of christ . the twelfth heterodoxy followeth ; now it is true , that christ being god as well as man , hath of himselfe originally as god , whatsoever he hath by vertue of gift as mediator maledicis , pag. 13. now subsume , christ hath by vertue of gift , as mediator , the priestly office . ergo , by master colemans principles , christ hath of himselfe originally as god , the priestly office . and if christ hath it of himselfe originally as god , then the father and the holy ghost hath it also ; so that by his doctrine the father and the holy ghost shall be the priests of the church as well as christ , for christ hath nothing of himself originally as god , which the father and the holy ghost have not likewise . the thirdteenth & last errour concerneth the office of deacons . not onely a widow but a deacon is denyed to be a church-officer , or to have any warrant from scripture . i hold not a widow a church-officer , saith he : no more doe i a deacon ; both having a like foundation in scripture , which truly is none at all . maledicis , pag. 9. if this was his opinion formerly , why did he not in so maine a point enter his dissent from the votes of the assembly concerning deacons , together with his reasons ? well , his opinion is so now , whereby he runneth contrary not onely to the reformed churches ( which it seemes weigh not much in his ballance ) but to the plaine scripture which speakes of the office of a deacon , 1 tim. 3. 10. and this could be no civill office , but an ecclesiasticall office , for the deacons were chosen by the church , were ordained with prayer , and laying on of hands , and their charge was to take speciall care of the poore , all which is cleare , act. 6. if he had given us the grounds of his opinion , he should have heard more against it . chap. v. the prelaticall way and tenents of master coleman , and master hussey : repugnant also in divers particulars to the votes and ordinances of parliament . 1 ▪ master coleman in his re-examination , page 14 makes the parliament to be church-governours , and church-officers to the whole kingdome . it was an argument used against the prelates that ecclesiasticall and civill government , spirituall and secular administrations are inconsistent in the same persons , either of which requireth the whole man . it was another exception against the prelate that he assumed the power of church-government , and ecclesiasticall jurisdiction over the whole diocesse , which was much more then he could discharge . how will master coleman avoid the involving the parliament into prelaticall guiltinesse , by his principles , which we avoyd by ours ? 2 ▪ the prelates sought great things for themselves rather then to purge the church of scandalls . what other thing was it when master coleman in his third rule , instead of exhorting to the purging the church , called onely for learning and competency , and told it out , that this will get us an able ministery , and procure us honour enough . master hussey in his epistle to my selfe tells me , that our attending on reading exhortation and doctrine ( without government ) will obtaine the magistrates love , more honour , more maintenance : something for shame he behooved to adde of the punishing of sinne , ( yet he will not have the minister called from his study to be troubled or to take any paines in discipline ) but behold the love of the magistrate , more honour , and more maintenance are strong ingredients in the erastian electuary . 3 master hussey will have ministers placed without any regard to the allowance or dis-all●wance of the people . epist. to the parliament . this is prelaticall , or rather more then prelaticall . 4 the prelates were great enemies to ruling elders . so are mr. coleman , and mr. hussey who acknowledge no warrant from the word of god for that calling , nor admit of any ruling elders who are not magistrates . a distinction which was used by saravia and bilson in reference to the jewish elders , and by bishop hall in reference to the elders of the ancient church , who were not preaching elders . assert . of episcop . by divine right , pag. 208 , 209 , 221. and now forsooth mr. hussey in his epistle to the parliament doth earnestly beseech them to set up classes consisting onely of ministers , whose worke should be onely to preach the word , &c. such classes i dare say the prelates themselves will admit of . sure the scottish prelates , when they were at their highest yeelded as much . 5 master coleman and mr. hussey hold that ruling elders and a church-government distinct from the civill government in the times of persecution and under pagan magistrates , can be no warrant for the like where the state is christian . this plea for christian magistracy was bishop whitgifts plea against the ruling elders . answ . to the admon . pag. 114. 6 master hussey , pag. 22. saith , that granting the incestuous corinthian to be excommunicated , the decree was pauls , and not the corinthians , and that it no way appertained to them under the notion of a church . this is saravia his answer to beza , de tripl . epist. genere , pag. 42 , 43 : yea the papists answer to protestant writers , by which they would hold up the authority and sole jurisdiction of the prelates ( as the apostles successors ) to excommunicate . they doe not more agree with the prelaticall principles , then they differ from the votes and ordinances of parliament , which is the other point that i have here undertaken to discover ; and i shall doe it by the particular instances following : first , the ordinance of the lords and commons assembled in parliament for the calling of an assembly of divines beginneth thus : whereas among the infinite blessings of almighty god upon this nation , none is , or can be more deare unto us then the purity of our religion , and for that as yet many things remaine in the liturgie , discipline , and government of the church , which doe necessarily require a further and more perfect reformation then as yet hath been attained : and whereas it hath been declared , and resolved by the lords and commons as●embled in parliament , that the present church-government by arch-bishops , bishops , &c. is evill and justly offensive , &c ▪ and that therefore they are resolved that the same shall be taken away , and that such a government shall be setled in the church , as may be most agreeable to gods holy word , and most apt to procure and preserve the peace of the church at home , and nearer agreement with the church of scotland , and other reformed churches abroad . afterward it was resolved and voted in both the honourable houses of parliament , and sent as one of the propositions to the treaty at vxbridge , that many particular congregations shall be under one presbyteriall government . now therefore what can be more contrary to the votes and ordinances of parliament , then that which mr: coleman and mr. hussey hold , that there ought to be no ecclesiasticall government , beside civill magistracy , except we please to take preaching and baptisme under the name of government , as if forsooth the parliament had meant by presbyteriall government , parliamentary government ; or as if by the purity of religion in point of the discipline of government of the church they had intended nothing but their civill rights and priviledges , or as if the wise and honourable houses had understood themselves no better then to intend that for a nearer agreement with the church of scotland , and other reformed churches , which is the widest difference from them , to wit , the erastian way . secondly , in the same ordinance of parliament for the calling of an assembly of divines , it is ordained , that the assembly after conferring and treating among themselves touching the lyturgie , discipline , and government of the church , or vindication and clearing of the doctrine of the same , shall deliver their opinions or advices of or touching the matters aforesaid to both or either of the houses of parliament , yet mr. hussey epist. to the parliament , pag. 3. 6. will not have classes and assemblies to put any thing to the vote , but to hold on the disputes till all end in accord , and in unanimous consent of the whole clergy . but how can the assembly after disputes , expresse their sence , and deliver their opinions and advice to the parliament , as they are required , except they doe it by putting to the vote . mr. coleman himselfe hath consented , yea sometime called to put things to the vote . and as for classes , will any man imagine that when both houses of parliament did vote that many particular congregations shall be under one presbyteriall government , their meaning was that the classicall presbitery shall onely schoole-wise dispute , and put nothing to the vote : or that the classicall presbitery shall in common dispence the word and sacraments to many congregations , and that either the classicall presbitery shall goe to the severall congregations successively , or the many congregations come to the classicall presbitery , for preaching and baptizing ? i admire what opinion mr. hussey can have of the parliamentary vote concerning presbyteriall government . thirdly , mr. hussey , epist. to the parliament , pag. 4 , 5. will have ministers placed without any regard to the allowance and dis-allowance of the people , yet the ordinance of parliament for giving power to classicall presbyteries to ordaine ministers , doth appoint that he who is examined and approved by the presbitery shall be sent to the church or other place where he is to serve ( if it may be done with safety and conveniency ) there to preach three severall daies , and to converse with the people , that they may have triall of his gifts for their edification , and may have time and leasure to enquire into , and the better to know his life and conversation : after which the ordinance appointeth publike notice to be given , and a day set to the congregation , to put in what exceptions they have against him , fourthly , mr. hussey in that epistle to the parliament , pag. 5. saith , oh that this honourable court would hasten to set up classes consisting onely of ministers , whose worke should be onely to preach the word , and weekly meet in schooles of divinity . here 's a double contradiction to the ordinances of parliament , for in the directions of the lords and commons for chusing of ruling elders , and speedy setling of presbyteriall government , it is appointed that ruling elders shall be members both of classes and synodicall assemblies , together with the ministers of the word . againe , the ordinance about suspension of scandalous persons from the sacrament appointeth other work to classes , beside preaching and disputing , namely the receiving and judging of appeales from the congregationall eldership . mr. coleman in maledicis , pag. 12. professeth that he excludeth ruling elders from church government , yet he can hardly be ignorant that as the parliament hath voted , that many particular congregations shall be under one presbyteriall government ; so their votes doe commit that government to pastors and ruling elders jointly . i will not here repeat the particulars wherein i shewed in my nihil respondes that mr. coleman hath abused the honorable houses of parliament , unto which particulars he hath answered as good as nothing . the honourable houses in their wisedome will soone observe , whether such men , whose avou●hed tenents are so flatly repugnant to the parliamentary votes and ordinances , are like to be good pleaders for christian magistracy . chap. vi . master coleman's wronging of the church of scotland . master coleman ends his maledicis with a resentment of accusations charged upon him by a stranger , a commissioner from another church . the lot of strangers were very hard , if when they are falsely accused to authority , they may not answer for themselves . he may remember the first accusation was made by himself , when in his sermon to the parliament , he did flatly impute to the commissioners from the church of scotland , a great part of the fault of hindering union in the assembly of divines , as having come byassed with a nationall determination : his doctrine also at that time being such , as did not onely reflect upon the government of the church of scotland , but tend to the subversion of the covenant in one principall point , without which there can be small or no hopes of attaining the other ends of the covenant ▪ since that time he did in his re-examination , and now again in his maledicis fall foully upon the church of scotland , not onely by grosse mistakes and misrepresentations of our way , but by most groundlesse aspersions , and most uncharitable and unjust calumnies . i am sure i am not so much a stranger to his doctrine as he is to the church of scotland , of which notwithstanding he boldly speaks his pleasure , in divers particulars which he will never be able to make good . first , he hath aspersed that church in the point of promiscuous communicating . this i confuted in my nihil respondes , and told him both of the order of the church , and practice of conscientious ministers to the contrary . now what replieth he ? first , this refining work , i think , is not one yeer old in scotland , or much more ; i was lately informed that in edinbrugh it is begun : whether anywhere else i know not . maledicis pag. 20. are not these now good grounds of censuring and aspersing a reformed church , ( whose name hath been as precious ointment among other churches abroad ) i think , i was informed , whether it be otherwise i know not ? he will sit in cornhill , and tell the world what he imagines or hears of the church of scotland , and that forsooth must be taken for a truth . yet there was both rules and practice in the church of scotland , for debarring ignorant and scandalous persons from the sacrament , before he was born : though all was put out of course under the prelats . secondly , saith the reverend brother , it is not a very effectuall , sin-censuring , and church-refining government , under which after fo●rscore yeers constant practice , divers thousands in the kingdom , and some hundreds in one particular parish , because of ignorance and scandall , are yet unfit to communicate . maledicis pag. 20. answ . 1. it is notoriously false that there hath been fourscore yeers constant practice of presbyteriall government in scotland : for the prelats there , were above thirty yeers standing . 2. shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day , or shall a nation be born at once ? saith the prophet , isa. 66. 8. it is no easie matter to get a whole nation purged of ignorant and scandalous persons . 3. he may take notice that the apostle paul almost in all his epistles , maketh mention of scandalous persons among those to whom he wrote , warning them not to have fellowship with such , to note them , to avoid them . if the apostolick churches were not free of such , what great marvel if we be not ? 4. before he objected promiscuous communicating . this being cleared to be a calumny , now he objecteth that there are such as are unfit to communicate . but while he thus seeketh a quarrel against church-government , he doth upon the matter quarrel the preaching of the gospel it self . for ●e that imputeth it as a fault to the church-government that there are still divers thousands , who by reason of ignorance or scandal , are unfit to communicate , doth by consequence , yea much more , impute it as a fault to the preaching of the gospel in england , scotland , ireland , france , germany , the low-countreys , switzerland , swede , poland , that in all these and other reformed churches after fourscore yeers constant preaching of the gospel ( which is appointed of god to turn unconverted and unregenerate persons , from darknesse to light , and from the power of satan to god ) there are not onely divers thousands , but divers millions who by reason of ignorance or scandal , are yet unfit to communicate . if the word do not open the eyes of the ignorant , and convert the scandalous , what marvel that church-government cannot do it ? church-government is not an illuminating and regenerating ordinance as the word is . but this church-government can and will do , yea hath done where it is duly executed ; it is a most blessed means for keeping the ordinances from visible and known pollution , which doth very much honour god , shame sin , and commend piety . it putteth a visible difference between the precious and the vile , the clean and the unclean , the silver and the drosse ; and may well be therefore called a church-refining ordinance . the second calumny was this , i my self , said he , did hear the presbytery of edinbrugh censure a woman to be banished one of the gates of the city . i answered him in his own language , it is at the best a most uncharitable slander . and told him , there is no banishment in scotland , but by the civil magistrate ; and that he ought to have enquired and informed himself better . now he doth neither adhere to his calumny , or offer to make it good , nor yet quit it , or confesse he was mistaken ; but propoundeth three new queres ( male dicis , pa. 21. ) still forgetting his own rule of keeping to the laws of disputation and matter in hand . for the particular in hand , he onely saith thus much , i did make enquiry , and from the presbytery it self , i received information ; but not satisfaction . he tells not what information he received . if he will say , that he received information that the banishment was by the magistrate , how could he then report that it was by the presbytery . if he say , that the information he had from the presbytery gave him any ground for the report which he hath made , let him speak it out , and the world shall know the untruth of it . he may remember withall , that by his principles an accusation may not be received against an elder ( much lesse against an eldership ) in reference either to the judgement of charity , or to ministerial conviction , except under two or three witnesses . if therefore he would have his accusation beleeved , let him finde two or three witnesses . thirdly , whereas i had rectified a great mistake of the reverend brother , when i told him it is accidental to the ruling elder to be of the nobility , or to nobles to be ruling elders ; there are but some so , and many otherwise : he is not pleased to be rectified in this , but replyeth , i say , first , it is continually so . secondly , the kings commissioner in the general assembly , is his presence accidental ? male dicis , pag. 10. see now here whether he understandeth what he saith , or whereof he affirmeth . that which he saith is continually so , is almost continually otherwise , that is , there are continually some ruling elders who are not nobles , and there are continually some nobles who are not ruling elders : so that if any thing be accidental , this is accidental , that an elder be of the nobility , or nobles be elders ; they are neither nobles qua elders , nor elders qua nobles . it is no lesse accidental , that the kings commissioner be present in the general assembly ; for there have been general assemblies in scotland , both before the erection and since the last casting out of prelacy , in which there was no commissioner from the king . and when the king sends a commissioner , it is accidental that he be of the nobility ; for the king hath sent commissioners to general assemblies , who were not of the nobility . a fourth injury , not to be passed in silence , is this , master coleman hath endeavoured to make the world beleeve , that the commissioners from the church of scotland , came to the assembly , byassed with something adventitious from without , which he calls a national determination , and that we are not permitted by those that sent us , to receive any further light from the word of god . i shall say no more of the byas , because as i told him before , the standers by see well enough which way the byas runs . but most strange it is , that after i had confuted his calumny , not onely from our paper first presented to the grand committee , but from the general assemblies own letter to the assembly of divines , shewing that they had ordered the laying aside of some particular customes in the church of scotland for the neerer uniformity with the church of england , so much endeared unto them ; yet he still adhereth to his former calumny ( male dicis , pag. 20. ) without taking notice of the evidence which i had given to the contrary . and not content with this , he still qua●relleth with my allegation of certain parallel examples , which are by him so far disesteemed , that he hath not stuck to passe the very same censure upon the forrain divines who came to the synod of dort , which the arminians did : the same he saith of alexander his coming to the councel of nice ; and of cyril his coming to the councel of ephesus . all these ( i say ) he still involveth under the same censure with us ; for whereas he had alleaged that i justified the byas , this i denyed and called for his proof ; his reply now is thus , is not the allegation of examples of the like doing , a justification of the act done ? male dicis , pag. 20. this reply can have no other sence but this , that i justified the thing which he thinks our byas , because i justified those other divines who ( as he holds ) came also byassed in like manner . i am perswaded this one particular , his joyning with the arminians in their exceptions against the synod of dort , would make all the reformed churches , if they could all speak to him uno ore , to cry male audis . and i am as firmly perswaded , that the confession which i have extorted from him in this place , that he knoweth no adventitious ingagements those divines had , makes him irreconcileably to contradict himself ; for he made them but just now byassed in the same manner as he thinks us , and made my allegation of their examples to be a justification of the byas charged by him upon us : as therefore he doth most uncharitably , and untruly judge us to be byassed with adventitious engagements , so doth he judge of them . neither can he assoil them , while he condemneth us ; for the articles concerning predestination , the death of christ , grace , freewill , and perseverance , were determined before the synod of dort , by most ( if not by all ) of those reformed churches who sent commissioners thither , as much as presbyterial government was determined in the church of scotland , before the reverend assembly of divines was called . and this preingagement and predetermination of those reformed churches , was the main objection of the arminians , against the forrain divines who came to the synod of dort. to conclude this point , master coleman himself in his reexamination , pag. 7. avoucheth roundly , that the forrain divines came to dort , not as divines by dispute and disquisition to finde out truth , but as judges to censure all different opinions as erroneous . chap. vii . calumnies confuted , and that question briefly cleared , whether the magistrate be christs vice-gerent . master hussey in his title page tels us he hath prosecuted the argumentative part without any personall reflections ; yet i could instance divers personall reflections in his book which any moderate impartiall man will extremely dislike ; but what should this be to the edifying of my reader , the end which next to the glory of god and the promoting of reformation , i have proposed to my self ? yet i must needs take notice of some calumnies . first , in his epistle pag. 8. he offereth it to be examined whether i was not beside my text , mal. 3. 2. when i pressed from it reformation by ecclesiasticall discipline ? whether that refiners fire and fullers sope , doth not point at another , and a nearer operation upon the souls and spirits of men by the blood , word , spirit , and grace of christ ? and whether such handling of a similitude in a text be to preach the mind of god , or mens own fancy ? it is no discontent to me but i shall rejoyce in it , that men of piety and judgement examine my doctrine by the word of god , and hold fast what they finde agreeable to the scriptures , and no more . but i● this brotherly , or fair , or conscionable dealing , to offer my sermon to be examined under such a notion , when he hath not onely said nothing , to confute any of my doctrines , as not arising from my text , or any of my applications , as not arising from my doctrines ; but hath also untruely represented my sermon , as coming short of , or not expressing that which indeed it hath most principally and most expressely in it ? that of reformation was but a part of my sermon : and that of church-censures against scandalous sinners was but the least part of that part . and why should not the fullers sope in the house of god , take off those spots in our feasts ? why should not the refiners fire purge away the wicked of the earth like drosse , so david calls them ? that reformation is one part of the holy ghosts intendment in that text , is gualther's opinion as well as mine , yet he thinks gualther his own . nay , i proved it from comparing scripture with scripture , which is the best way that i know to clear scripture . why did he not answer my proofes ? but beside all that i said of reformation , had i not other three doctrines out of that text , comprehending all that which master hussey hinteth as omitted by me and yet intended in the text ? dare he say that i did not take in purgation by the word ? ( though i confesse he doth not well prove it from the words which he citeth , is not my word an hammer ? but it is proved by the words which he citeth not ▪ is not my word like as a fire ? ) did i not expressely say that christ is to us as a refiners fire and as fullers sope , three wayes , by reformation , by tribulation , by mortification ? did i not handle the last two as well as the first ? oh let no more any such grosse calumnies be found among those who professe to be brethren . secondly , master hussey in his epistle to my self gives it out that i say we have leave from the civill magistrate to preach the gospel , which he interprets , as if i denied that we preach the word with authority from christ . it was de facto , not de jure , that i spake it . the magistrate hath power in his hand to hinder both doctrine and discipline , if he be an adversary : though it be the will of christ that there be both doctrine and discipline , and the authority of both is from christ . when the magistrate assisteth or countenanceth , or so much as he doth not hinder the preaching of the gospel , then he gives leave to it . thirdly ▪ master coleman in his maledicis pag. 1. saith , i am confident , the church of scotland sent this commissioner to dispute down our reasons , not to revile our persons . maledicis maledicis pag. 1. why did he not ( if he could ) give instance of some reviling word written by me against his person . i have not so learned christ . the lord rebuke every railing and reviling spirit . i have given him reason against railing ; he hath given me railing against reason , i spake to his doctrine , he speakes to my place and relation , which is both the alpha and omega of his maledicis . thirdly , ibid. knowledge saith he is onely with mr. gillespie , others understand neither what they say , nor whereof they affirms . he will sooner bring water out of flint , then prove this consequence out of my title page . although i confesse himselfe hath affirmed divers things of the church of scotland , which he doth not understand , as i have made plainely to appeare . if he take a review of the title page of his re-examination , he gives more ground for this consequence , that mr. coleman is the onely man that denies himselfe : others seeke great things for themselves . or from the title page of his maledicis , this consequence will be as good that mr. coleman is the onely man that blesseth , others are revilers . fourthly , thus saith mr. coleman , o y●e honourable house of parliament , take you notice that you manage that great place of yours under christ and for christ : he is your head and you are his servants . and take you notice withall that mr. gillespy accounts this your reproach . maledicis maledicis , pag. 17. but o ye honourable house of parliament , be pleased to take notice of my owne plaine expression of my minde in my nihil respondes , pag. 13. the christian magistrate manageth his office under and for christ , that is , so as to be serviceable for the kingdome and glory of christ . and now judge whether it be sutable to the sincerity and candor of a minister of the gospell , to endeavour to make me odious to authority , by imputing to me that which not onely i did not say , but the contrary whereof i did plainly expresse ? the thing which i charged his doctrin with was this , that by holding all government to be given to christ as mediatour , and from him as mediatour derived to the magistrate as his vicegerent , he shaketh the foundation of magistracy . i am sure that which i hold , that all lawfull magistrates are powers ordained by god ▪ and are to be honoured and obeyed as gods vicegerents , is a firme and strong foundation for magistracy . but that which mr. coleman and mr. hussey hold , viz. that the christian magistrate holdeth his office of , under , and for christ as he is mediator , and doth act vice christi , as christs vicegerent , gives a most dangerous wound to christian magistracy , which i can demonstrate in many particulars : i shall now give instance onely in these few . first , they must prove from scripture that christ as mediator hath given a commission of vicegerentship to christian magistrates , and appointed them not onely to be seviceable to him and to doe his worke : ( for that they must serve christ , and be for his glory , is not controverted , nay can never enough be commended to them ) but also to governe vice christi , in christs stead , and that not only as he is god ( which is not controverted neither , ) but as he is mediator . this ( i say ) they must prove , ( which they will never be able to doe ) or otherwise they doe by their doctrine leade the magistrate into a snare ; and leave him in it . for how shall he be acknowledged for a vicegerent who can shew no commission nor warrant for his vicegerentship ? secondly , their doctrine tendeth to the altering of the surest and best knowne tenure of magistracy , which is from god : for they hold that god hath put all government and all authority civill , and all into the hands of christ as mediatour ; if the tenure from christ faile , then by their doctrine the tenure from god shall faile too . thirdly , the vicegerent cannot act in that capacity nor assume that power which his soveraigne whose vicegerent he is , ought not to assume if he were personally present . so that by their principles it will follow that the christian magistrate can act no further , nor assume any other power of government , then christ himselfe might have assumed when he was on earth , or might now assume and exercise as mediatour if he were on earth . but christ himselfe when he was on earth neither did exercise nor was sent to exercise civill judgement , luke 12. 14. and the temporall sword . john 18. 36. nor externall observation and state . luk. 17. 20 , 21. and he declined to be an earthly king . john 6. 15. therefore by their principles the christian magistrate ought to forbeare and avoide all these . a fifth calumny is this , mr. coleman descanting upon the governments mentioned . 1 cor. 12. 28. chargeth me with a circular argumentation : he circularly argues saith he : they are civill because god placed them there , and god placed them there , because they are civill . maledicis maledicis . pag. 9. i neither argued the one nor the other : they are both sir of your owne forging . but this is not your first allegation of this kind . i sometime admire what oscitancy or supine negligence ( to judge it no worse ) this can be , to fancy to your selfe that i have said what you would , and then to bring forth your owne apprehensions for my arguments . chap. viii . that mr. coleman doth great violence both to his owne words , and to the words of others whom he citeth . the reverend brother hath offered extreme violence to his own declaration ; of which let the reader now judge , comparing his declaration with his interpretation . declaration . for much of what is reported of my sermon i utterly deny , and referre my selfe to the sermon it selfe ; for what i have acknowledged to be delivered by me , although it is my judgement , yet because i see it hath given a great deale of offence to this assembly , and the reverend commissioners of scotland ; i am sorry i have given ●ff●nce in the delivery thereof : and for the printing , although i have an order , i will forbeare , except i be further commanded . tho. coleman . interpretation . it is a truth , and a scripture truth which i have delivered , and because i see a scripture truth hath given offence to the commissioners of scotland , &c. i am sorry . this must needes be the sence ; i am sure this was the sence intended . maledicis , maledicis , pag. 18. surely if such orleance glosses be admitted upon mens declarations signed with their hands ; and if he who hath subscribed himselfe sorry that he hath given offence in the delivery of such a doctrine , shall be allowed to expound himselfe thus ; that he meant he was sorry others had taken offence at a scripture truth , that is , he was sorry for our fault not for his owne : i know not how men shall trust one anothers declarations : or how we can practically as well as doctrinally confute the jesuiticall aequivocations and mentall reservations . and if this must needes be the sence which now the reverend brother gives ; and was the sence intended , why saith he that he did publickly recall that declaration ? he might make a revocation of it , in the sence wherein i understood it : but how could he make a revocation of it , as himselfe understood it , and as he faith the sence must needes be ? was this his sorrow for our taking offence at a scripture truth , a sorrow to be sorrowed for ? why did hee not rather make a second declaration the next day , interpreting the former ? and whereas he thinks that his revocation ought to have beene mentioned together with his declaration , because the whole truth is to be told as well as the truth , his owne heart knowes that he himselfe hath not told the whole truth , for he could tell much more , if he pleased ; how he was brought upon the businesse , and particularly upon that revocation . why will he challenge others for not telling the whole truth , when himselfe doth it not ? i should have thought , that this revocation was neither here nor there , as to the point of scandall , for proofe whereof his declaration was brought : and that as it was not to the businesse in hand , so it might rather , serve for impairing his credit then for any thing else . but seeing himselfe thinks it more for his credit , to tell the world of his saying and unsaying , declaring and undeclaring , let him be doing . in the next place will you see how much violence he offereth to divines whom he citeth ? i had cited plaine and full testimonies of the zurick divines , shewing that gualther expounds i cor. 5. all along of excommunication : that bullinger holds excommunication to be instituted by christ , matth. 18. that aretius saith god was the author of excommunication in the old testament , and christ in the new ; all which see in nihil respondes , pag. 32. the reverend brother notwithstanding of their plaine testimonies speaking for me and against him in the maine controversie betweene him and me , doth still alledge that they are for him , not for me , maledicis , pap . 23. yet he doth not so much as offer any answer to their testimonies by me cited : onely he bringeth three other passages of theirs , intimating that there may be a true church without excommunication : that they thought it not necessary where they lived : that they thought it hard yea impossible : arduum nec non impossible , to introduce excommunication in those parts . by which citations the brother hath proved nothing against me , but confirmed what i said . let him remember , first , he himselfe makes the maine controversie betweene him and me , about the scripturall warrants of church censures : now in that , they are clearely against him . next aretius who thought it hard , yea impossible , to bring in excommunication at that time , saith also , dabit posterior at as tractabili●res forte animas , peradventure the following age shall bring forth more tractable soules : and thereupon he adviseth , not to despaire of the restitution of excommunication . i cited also other testimonies to shew that the zurick divines did endeavour and long for the discipline of excommunication , though as things stood then and there , they did prudentially supersede the restoring of it where they lived , because of the difficulty and apprehended impossibility of the thing . if mr. coleman will follow the zurick divines , he must change his tone , and quite alter the state of the question , and make it thus : whether as things now stand it be expedient to settle excommunication in the church of england ? now , if he make this the state of the question , then he must make a revocation of that word , i deny an institution , i assent to a prudence . for the tables were turned with the zurick divines : they assented to an institution , they denyed a prudence ; they held an affirmative precept for excommunication , but that it doth not bind ad semper , that the thing is not at all times , nor in all places necessary ; that weighty inconveniences may warrant the superseding of it . the reverend brother brings another testimony out of aretius against suspension from the sacrament ; and further saith he , for this grand desired power , suspension from sacrament , these are his words , &c. a testimony three wayes falsified . 1. aretius speaks not at all in that place of the power or duty of church-officers , of which suspension is a part : but he speakes of private christians , and what is incumbent to them . 2. he speakes of separation ( not of suspension ) from the sacrament ; that a man is not bound to withdraw and lie off from the sacrament , because everie one who is to communicate with him is not in his opinion a saint . 3. he speaketh against separation from both word and sacrament , because of the mixture of good and bad in hearing and in communicating : but scandalous sinners are invited to , not suspended from the hearing of the word . wherefore take aretius his words as they are , and then let the reverend brother consider what he hath gained . what hath this now to doe with church-officers their power of suspension from the sacrament ? observe another testimony which he addeth out of augustine lib. de fide , excommunicatio debet supplere locum visibilis gladii , which he englisheth thus , excommunication comes in onely to supply the want of the civill sword . but how comes in your onely sir ? augustines saith no such thing . and when i have expunged that word , i must tell you further , that i can find no such passage in augustines book de fide : but i find somewhat to this purpose in another book of his , which is entituled de fide & operibus , a book which he wrote against the admission of such persons to baptisme , as being instructed in the faith , are notwithstanding still scandalous in their lives ( which by the way will hold ● fortiori for the exclusion of notorious scandalous sinners from the lords supper : for they who ought not to be admitted to the sacrament of initiation , ought much lesse to be admitted to the sacrament of confirmation ) now because divers scriptures speake of a mixture of good and bad in the church , augustine takes there occasion to reprove those who abused these scriptures against the exercise of discipline and church censures : the necessity whereof he sheweth to be the greater , because the magistrate doth not punish by death all such crimes as under the law were punished by death : as namely adultery , ( the scandall chiefly by him insisted upon ) as for that passage concerning excommunication its supplying the place of the sword , it plainely holds forth excommunication under christian emperors and magistrates , ( for such they were at that time ) so farre it is from making against us . for these are the words which say no such thing as mr. coleman would make them say . and phine●as the priest did thrust through the adulterous persons found together , with the avenging sword . which was signified that it should be done by degradations and excommunications in this time , when in the discipline of the church the visible sword was to cease . if the reverend brother had let me know where to finde his other testimonies of origen and chrysostome : peradventure i had given him as good an account of them . tertullians words which he citeth , praesident probati seniores , i know very well where to find ; and i know also , that if there be a passage in all antiquity against the erastians , that is one . which therefore i here offer as it is to be considered . one instance more of his mis ▪ alledging and perverting of testimonies . in the close he citeth a passage of mr. case his sermon august 22. 1645. he ( christ ) is king of nations and king of saints . as king of nations he hath a temporall kingdome and government over the world , &c. and the rule and regiment of this kingdome he hath committed to monarchies , &c. here is erastia●isme , ( saith mr. coleman pag. 38. ) a steppe higher then ever i or erastus himselfe went . and i desire to know of mr. gillespy , if he will owne this as good divinity . yes sir i owne it for very good divinity , for my reverend brother mr. case , saith not that christ as mediator it king of nations , and hath a temporall kingdome in the world , and hath committed rule and regiment to monarchies or other lawfull magistrates , ( which is the point that you and mr. husses contend for , being a great heterodoxy in divinity ) but he saith of the sonne of god , that he is king of nations , and hath committed rule to monarchies , which i owne with all my heart . the distinction of the twofold kingdome of christ , an universall kingdome , whereby he raigneth over all things as god : and a speciall oeconomicall kingdome , whereby he is king to the church onely , and ruleth and governeth it , is that which being rightly understood , overturneth , overturneth , overturneth the erastian principles . let mr. coleman but owne this distinction and that which mr. case addeth concerning the kingdome which christ as king of saints ( and so as mediator ) doth exercise both invisibly in the conscience , and visibly in the church , first , by conquering a people and visible subjects ; secondly , by giving them laws distinct from all the lawes and statutes of all the kingdomes and republicks in the world isai. 33. 22. thirdly , by constituting speciall officers in the church not onely to promulgate these lawes , math. 28. 19. but to governe his people according to them , acts. 20. 28. rom. 12. 8. 1 cor. 12. 28. 1 cro. 14. 32. fourthly , in that he hath commanded all his people to obey these ecclesiasticall officers . heb. 13. 7. 17. fifthly , and hath appointed censures proper to this government . math. 18. 17. 1 cor. 5. 13. i say let mr. coleman but owne this doctrine of mr. case , which was printed by order of the honourable house of commons , as well as his was : then we are agreed . and so much for this time . errata . pref. pag. 4. marg. lib. ● . 3. 2. read lib. 2. cap. 4. p. 7. l. 12. bourn r. b●●ne . p. 13. l. 28. exhort r. exhor●eth . p. 21. l. 18. to do● r. not to doe . p. 25. l. 4. sch●●llrs r. sch●●lrs . p. 30. l. 9. cusre r. curse . p. 32. l. 28. falsum r. falsa●● . p. 33. l. 19. that r. of . p. 34. l. 29. ●nabsurdi●y r. ●o absurdity . ib. l. 30. div●ll r. divells . ib. l. 36. activity r. 〈…〉 . ● . 35. l. 1. i● . h● . p. 48. l. 35. ●● he doth r. as doth . the smaller typographicall faults the reader will pardon finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a86003e-30 math. martinius in lexi philol . maledico , malum loquor sive juste sive injuria . lib 2. c. 4. 1 cor. 14. 26 hieron. eustochio . notes for div a86003e-350 {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . quod propemodum valet ac si dicas , ●acite ut pondu● & auctoritatem habeat charitas erga illum . lequitur enim velut ad judices & concienem , quorum suffragiis velit absolvi eum , qui traditus fuerat satanae . nam {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} concionem significat , in qua creantur magistratus , quae latini vocant comitia , & diem alieujus rei causa praestitutum , & jus aliquod agendi . quin & {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} graeci dicunt scriptum authenticum , authoribus hesychio & suida . mihi videtur & ea sententia quae vicissetin suffragiis dicta fuisse {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . hesych ▪ {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . julius pollux lib. 8. cap. ● . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , &c. clemens alexandrinus paedag. lib. 1. cap. 10. useth promiscuously {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} and {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} in one and the same sentence to expresse punishment : {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . which gentianus hervetus his interpreter readeth thus : cum peccatorum poe●as , & facilem & tanquam ven●is perflabilem eorum dissipationem ostendisset paedagogus , per poenam a causa dehortatus est . again , paedag . lib. 3. cap. 2. ad finem : {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . the interpreter thus : quin etiam sichimitae puniuntur , qui lapsi sunt , sanctae virgini probrum inferen●es . sepulchrum eis est supplicium , & poen● monimentum nos ducit ad salutem . concil. antioch . sub constantio can. 4. si quis episcopus a sy●●do dep●situs , vel diaconus a proprio episcopo , sac●um celebrate a●sus fuerit &c. concil. hispal . 2. can. 6. ut nullus nostrum sine concilij examine , dejicere quemlibet presbyterum vel diaconum audeat . episcopus enim sacerdotibus & ministris solus honorem dare potest : au●erre solus non potest . vide etiam conc. afric . can. 20. conc. carthag. 4. can. 23. * salmas . appar. ad lib. de primat . pag. 298. 299. non enim potestatem quam in ordinatione accepit per impositionem manuum , potest ●ripere princeps , cum nec eam possit dare . si princeps igitur velit ministrum aliquem ob sua peccata prorsus degradari & {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , & ministerium simul cum ejus functione amittere , per pastores ipsos id faciendum debet curare , qui judices veri ipsius sunt , & auferre soli possunt quod per ordinationem dederunt . imperatores romani quos per vim ejicerent , quia intelligebant potestatem ministerij fungendi non aliter iis adimere posse , in exili●m eos mittebant . quod possemus infinitis testimoniis demonstrare . relegatus hoc modo episcopus remane●at nihilominus episcopus , non ordine excideba● episcopali , nec ad laicorum ordinem redigebatur . gerhard . loc. com. tom. 6. pag. 201. pro●ari nequit illorum pseudopoli●icorum opinio , qui ad jura re●alia magistrates rem●tionem ministrorum pertinere censent . see fr. junius ecclesiast . lib. 3. cap. 3. & animad. in be●● . co●●r . 4. ●●b . 1. cap. 20. not . 8. ●alduin . de cas. conscient . lib. 4. cap. 5. cas. 12. vide apud synod do●d●a● sess. 2● . conditione● syn●●● legit●im● instituendae quas remonstra●tes &c , con●it . 9. vt de controversis articulis non ●ia● decisio , sed accmodatiooni studeatur : cujus tamen via & ratio rata non ha●eatur , nisi accedente ●tri●●que partis consensu . ●●stem . l●g . lib. 3. cap. 5. aret. probl. theol. loc. 8. privatis satis est ferre utrinque utrosque ( infir●●s & p●●am s●●l ratos ) emendare autem quotie ▪ fort ex mplo & doctrina . si parum vel nihil etiam proficiat , non habet ob id causam seced ●di . nec est quod centaminationem m●●uat , modo no● consintist seel ribus &c nihil ad me attinet in communio●●●oen● domi i , in caeu public●●um audio verbum dei , ( which last clause mr. coleman leaves out without so much as &c ) quales singuli sint mecum participantes . aug. de fide & operibus cap. 2. et phi●es sacerdos adulteros simul inventos ferro ultore consixit . quod utique degradationibus & excommunicationibus significatum est esse f●●●endum in his tempore , cum in ecclesie disciplina visibilis fuerat gledius cessaturus . tert. apologet . cap. 39. ibidem etiam exhortationes , castigationes , & censura divina . nam & judicatur magno cum pondere , ut apud certos de de● conspectu : summumque futuri judicii praejudicium est , si quis ita deliquerit , ut a communicatione orationis , & conventus , & ●m is sancti commerc●i relege●ur . praesident probati quique seniores , bonorem i , iu● non pretio sed testimenio adepti . a fvll reply to certaine briefe observations and anti-queries on master prynnes twelve questions about church-government wherein the frivolousnesse, falseness, and grosse mistakes of this anonymous answerer (ashamed of his name) and his weak grounds for independency, and separation, are modestly discovered, reselled : together with certaine briefe animadversions on mr. iohn goodwins theomachia, in justification of independency examined, and of the ecclesisticall jurisdiction and rights of parliament, which he fights against / by william prynne ... prynne, william, 1600-1669. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a56167 of text r3868 in the english short title catalog (wing p3967). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 103 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 13 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a56167 wing p3967 estc r3868 11953745 ocm 11953745 51482 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a56167) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 51482) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 820:28) a fvll reply to certaine briefe observations and anti-queries on master prynnes twelve questions about church-government wherein the frivolousnesse, falseness, and grosse mistakes of this anonymous answerer (ashamed of his name) and his weak grounds for independency, and separation, are modestly discovered, reselled : together with certaine briefe animadversions on mr. iohn goodwins theomachia, in justification of independency examined, and of the ecclesisticall jurisdiction and rights of parliament, which he fights against / by william prynne ... prynne, william, 1600-1669. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a56167 of text r3868 in the english short title catalog (wing p3967). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread 24 p. printed by f.l. for michael sparke, senior : and are to be sold at the blew-bible in green-arbour, london : 1644. reproduction of original in huntington library. "certaine briefe animadversions on mr. john goodwins theomachia, in justification of some passages in my independency, examined, unmasked, &c." : p. 17-24. eng goodwin, john, 1594?-1665. -certaine briefe observations and antiquaeries on master prin his twelve questions about church-governement. goodwin, john, 1594?-1665. -theomachia. church and state -great britain. church polity. great britain -history -puritan revolution, 1642-1660. a56167 r3868 (wing p3967). civilwar no a full reply to certaine briefe observations and anti-queries on master prynnes twelve questions about church-government: vvherein the frivo prynne, william 1644 19270 90 5 0 0 0 0 49 d the rate of 49 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the d category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2002-05 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2002-06 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2002-07 john latta sampled and proofread 2002-07 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2002-08 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a fvll reply to certaine briefe observations and anti-queries on master prynnes twelve questions , about church-government : wherein the frivolousnesse , falsenesse , and grosse mistakes of this anonymous answerer ( ashamed of his name ) and his weak grounds for independency , and separation , are modestly discovered , refelled . together with certaine briefe animadversions on mr. iohn goodwins theomachia , in justification of independency examined , and of the ecclesiasticall jurisdiction and rights of parliament , which he fights against . by william prynne of lincolnes inne , esquire . socrates scholasticus eccles. hist. l. 5. c. 20. ecclesia cum semel esset divisa , non una divisione acquievit , sed homines ab se mutuò aversi , alter ab altero denuò scesserunt ; atque adeò exigvam levicvlamqve occasionem nacti , mutuae communionis consociationisque vincula disruperunt . have salt in your selves , and have peace one with another . mark 2. 50. to this end was i born , and for this cause come i into the world , that i should beare witnesse unto the truth . ioh. 18 , 37. am i therefore become your enemy , because i tell you the truth ? gal. 4. 16. imprimatur . october 14. 1644 iohn white . the second edition some what inlarged , with materiall additions . london , printed by f. l. for michael sparke senior , and are to be sold at the blew-bible in green-arbour . 1644. of all the vanities and vexations of spirit , enumerated by the royall preacher , this is one of the principall , [ a ] that for all travell , and every right works , a man is envied ( yea , many times hated , oppugned ) by his neighbour . this hath been alwayes my condition heretofore and now ; my best actions and publike services for the common good , have been misconstrued , traduced , nay censured in an high degree , as ●…vill , by many ; though ( blessed be god ) approved , yea gratefully accepted by the best-affected to the church and state . the importunity of some reverend friends , lamenting the deplorable distractions of our church , which threaten disunion , and so ruine to us , in these unhappy times of intestine warres , prevailed so farre as to induce me to compile and publish twelve considerable serious questions touching church-government ; out of a córdial desire ( as much as in me lay ) to close up , not widen our divisions . which though they have given ample satisfaction to many truely religious , of all ranks and qualities , who have returned me speciall thanks ; yet they have found very harsh entertainment from others , who of friends b are become my professed antagonists ( if not enemies ) in print , because i have told them the truth : to whom i should have returned no reply but silence ( there being nought in these observations worthy answer ) but only to rectisie some mistakes therin and shew the opposite party those common errours wherby they deceive themselves and others . the first thing this namelesse respondent quarrels with , is c for my writing by way of quere ; to which i answer , that i had both presidents and reasons for it . presidents , from our saviour himselfe , who both instructed , refuted , convinced his opposites and auditors by demanding * questions only . presidents from philosophers , fathers , school-men , and all sorts of writers , ancient , modern , over-tedious to recite . reasons : 1. i conceived the questions touching church-government were not rightly stated by most ; and that the right stating of them by way of question , would be the best and speediest meanes to decide them . 2. the independent party had neither then , nor since ( to my knowledg ) dogmatically resolved or discovered in print , what that church-government is they so eagerly contend for , and pretend to be so plainly set downe in the word of god ( being not y●…t all agreed what they hold , or should desire , except it be this , to be left at free libertie to doe what they please ) and therefore i conjectured such queries to be the only means to discover and refute their concealed platform . 3. the controversies concerning church-government , were then and now in agitation in the synod and high court of parliament , the properest iudges of them ; therefore i thought it better became me in point of modesty and good manners , to expresse my opinion of them by way of question , then decision . finally , i found all independents guilty of petitio principii , in their writings , sermons , discourses , peremptorily concluding their form of church-government , to d be the onely government instituted by christ , the onely way of god , which hath more of god and christ in it then any other ; the kingdom , scepter , and throne of christ himself , and no other way beside it ; e that by the beauty and perfect consonancy of this government with the word of god , it may very reasonably ( yea and upon higher terms then of reason ) be thought , that in time it cannot but overthrow all 〈◊〉 of ecclesiasticall government ( and i fear civill too by the self-same reason , & stand up it self in their stead , which they closeup with a faxit deus & festinet●… : and , that writi●…g or disputing against this government , or opposing it in any kind , yea in thought , is no lesse then f a fighting against god , which will bring certain ruine on our realme in generall , and all private , open opposers of it : yet not one of them ( nor this respondent ) hath hitherto fully discovered to us , what this way or government is ; nor produced any one scripture or reason to warrant these superlative encomiums of it , but we must take all they say as gospel , upon their own bare words , without examination or dispute : and therefore i proposed these , with 12 other subsequent questions to them , to induce them to make good these transcendent ( that i say not arrogant ) positions touching their way ; since i seriously professe before god , angels , and men , that i could never yet discover the least footsteps of it in scripture , or antiquity , nor descry this their patern in the mount , which no age till ours had ever the happiness to behold , if it be worth the viewing , when unvailed by them to us . having thus given this respondent the true grounds of my writing by way of question , i shall briefly answer all his materiall observations and anti-queries upon my twelve questions , pretermitting his impertinencies . 1. to the first question the respondent gives no answer at all to the things demanded , but only misrecites the question , without my limitations ; and then seemes to refute , what himselfe propounds , not i : he should have demonstrated by direct scriptures , that christ hath prescribed one set immutable forme of government to all christian nations , churches in the world , from which none must vary in the least degree , without sinne , schisme , or being no true churches of christ , with whom good christians may with safe conscience communicat ; and that nothing herein is , or can be left free to humane prudence , ( though themselves most stifly plead , that christ hath prescribed no * set form of praying or preaching to ministers , people , but left all men free to use their liberty and severall gifts in both ; on which grounds they condemne all set forms of publike ( if not private ) prayers , ( and some of them the use of the lords owne prayer ) together with there ading of set homilies ; upon which very grounds they must also deny all set formes of church-government , as well as of prayer and preaching : ) and then have positively delineated , exactly proved the modell of this pretended government , discipline , in every particle thereof , by gospel-texts , so far as to satisfie mens erronious judgments , consciences herein , that so they might either submit thereto without dispute , or propound their objections against the same . but in this maine point ( whereon the hinge of the controversie turnes ) the respondent is wholly silent , and i shall expect his answer ad graecas calendas . only lest he might seem to say nothing , he endevours to prove , that there is a set forme of church-government prescribed by christ in the gospel , not by direct texts , but from pretended absurdities of his owne fancying , ( for which he can produce no text nor reason ) wherein he hath prevaricated , and shewes himselfe absurd . first , ( writes he ) if this were granted ( that there is no such set form of church-government prescribed to all ) the gospell would be * straiter then the law , christ more unfaithfull then moses . if we deny these absurd consequences , you shall have these sound proofes of both subjoined ; god set a patterne to * moses of a carnal temple , ( you mistake good sir , it was a tabernacle , and that not carnall ) which he charged him not to vary from in a tittle : ( well , i grant it , because you produce * two full scriptures for it ) ergo , he hath prescribed a set pattern of church-government and discipline to all christian nations , churches in the new testament , from which they must not vary in one tittle . if he ( or any other ) can shew me such a pattern as he contends for , so clearly delineated to us in the new testament , as that pattern of the tabernacle god shewed moses was in the old , and then produce as direct precepts enjoyning all christians , republikes , churches , not to vary from it in one tittle , as moses had not to vary from his , i shall beleeve his sequell ; till then i shall deeme it a true independent argument , and as grosse a non-sequitur as this , which necessarily followes upon the concession of it . god shewed and prescribed to moses the expresse pattern or fashion of aarons and his sons garments , ornaments , under the law , exod. 28. ergo he hath likewise shewed and prescribed the expresse pattern , fashion , and colour , of all bishops , presbyters , ministers garments , ornaments under the gospel , ( most likely in the roman ceremoniall and pontificall . ) if the one consequence be ridiculous , the other must needs be so . but to quell this your principall argument , first , the patterne in the mount was meant onely of the materials , forme , vessels and utensils of the tabernacle , not of the government and discipline of the iewish church ; therfore very impe●…tinent to prove a setled church-government , discipline , under the gospel . secondly , it was shewed only to moses , the temporall magistrate and chief ruler of the israelites ; not to aaron , or any private independent priest or synagogue of the iewes ; yea moses ( not they ) was to make , or s●…e all things † made according to the pattern in the mount ; ergo ( if there be any consequence from this patterne ) not the independent minister or congregation , but kings , chief temporall magistrates , and parliaments ( the supreme civill powers , councels , ●…e likewise ( under the gospell ) to prescribe and set up such a church-government as is agreeable to gods word : as moses , joshua , david , solomon , hezekiah , joshiah , nehemiah , and other godly princes , governours , with their parliaments or generall assemblies did under the law : and then what becomes of your independent ministers , congregations claimes to this soveraigne temporall jurisdiction , ( a part of christs kingly office , delegated onely to kings , and highest temporall powers ) which was never conferred on them ? in fine , if there be any such expresse unalterable divine patterne of church-government under the gospel , i pray informe me , why it was not as punctually , as particularly described in the new testament , as the forme of the tabernacle , of its materialls with all the services , ornaments , appurtenances of it , and of the temple were under the law ? nay , why was the tabernacle altered into a * temple , different from it ? and why did the second * temple vary from the first , and that in the self same church and nation ? if these were patterns of the church-government under the gospel , and yet varied , altered successively in this manner ; then by consequence the government , discipline under the gospel is variable , alterable too , and so not fixed , nor immutable . his second argument . that christ should neither be faithfull as a husband , head , nor king of his church , if he should give others power to order it as they pleased to their owne civill government not setting downe his owne lawes for them to walke by , is both a fallacy & absurdity . there is no man doubts but that christ in the scriptures ( which some of you refuse to heare read in our churches , though * publike reading of them be gods owne ordinance ) hath prescribed to us all necessary rules lawes both for our faith lives either in a general or special manner which a●…l must pursue . but that he hath punctually or particularly set down any exact unalterable form of church-government , for all christian nations , churches to follow , under pain of being unfaithfull in all the former respects ; and that the independens modell alone is that very patterne ( the onely point in question ) remains on your part to make good . a man may be a faithfull husband , king , master , father , though he prescribe not distinct particular lawes , to regulate each particular action of his wife , subjects , servants , children : * let all things be done decently and in order , ( a generall rule for church-government ) is sufficient to excuse christ from these your presumptuous reproaches , and regulate all particulars , though left indefinite , as well as this generall rule for our christian conversation , phil. 1. 27. let your conversation be as becommeth the gospel of christ : and this other for our speech , eph. 4. 29. let no corrupt communication come out of your mo●… , but that which is good to the use of edifying . you may as well charge christ with unfaithfulnesse , for not prescribing to us a generall liturgy , or every particular action we should doe , every word we should speak , or ministers preach upon any occasion , as for not prescribing a particular forme of church-government . his third argument , that rev. 11. 1 , 2. we read of a † measuring of the temple ; and rev. 21. 1 , 2. of the new jerusalem comming downe from god out of heaven prepared as a bride adorned for her husband ; ergo there is a setled divine church-government universally prescribed to all christians in the new testament ; is no better a proofe of this assertion , then the angel of the church of ephesus , is of our prelats lordly hierarchy jure divino . he might as well , yea more properly have concluded thence , that the altar was measured as well as the temple , rev. 11. 1. ( referring only to the * jewish not christian church , which hath no * temple nor altar : ) ergo we ought to have an altar , yea one divine set form of altars in all christian churches under the gospel : which i hope you dare not aver . after these three independent arguments , he pretends my third quere contradicts the first , because i suppose a church-government may be consonant to gods word in the generall , which is not particularly prescribed in it : a pretty fancy ! as if nothing could be consonant to gods word , which is not particularized or verbally enjoyned in it : are not our materiall churches , garments , temporall magistrates , majors , corporations , parliaments , courts of justice , laws of all sorts , yea festivals , covenants , monthly fasts , &c. agreeable to gods word , because not literally prescribed in it ? are your private church-covenants , unmixt communions ( as you phrase them , ) erections of independent congregations without the licence of temporall magistrates , not consonant to the word in your owne opinions , though no where extant in it ? if not , then all your divine pretences for them vanish , and you yeeld your cause : if yea , you must then recant this pretence of a contradiction , till you are able to prove 〈◊〉 better then yet you have done . having played the logicians and contradictors part so well , he next betakes himself to his anti-queries to prove a set church-modell : which are three . 1. if no prescript forme ( of church-government ) in the word , why not episcopacy ( especially regulated and moderated ) as well as presbytery ? i answere , if you meane it of lordly episcopacy , there are abundant pregnant texts against it , to prove it opposite to gods word . if of moderated or regulated episcopacy , the same with presbytery : if the parliament by the synod●… advice unanimously establish it , as most consonant to the scriptures , and most agreeable to the civill government , i shall readily submit unto it without opposition , and why not you and all others ? 2. if church-government be suited to states , whether politicians are not more fit to consult about establishing it ? why is an assembly of divines called to search the word about it ? i answer , that my position is , that every church-government ought to be suitable to gods word , as likewise to the civill state ; therefore politicians and states-men are fit to be consulted with , to suit it best to the civill state ; and an assembly of divines , to square it likewise by and to the word : the true reason why in this our realme , and all other christian states ( as i can abundantly manifest if need be ) ecclesiasticall lawe●… and formes of government have ever been setled by parliaments , with the advice of synods , councells , wherein states-men and church-men have jointly concurred in their deliberations and votes , using both the bible and the law to settle it , and not throwing either of them aside , as incompatible , as ignorant or lawlesse persons deeme them , but joyning both together : true civill or ecclesiasticall policy , skill in government , arts , wholsome lawes , boing † gods gift , as well as spirituall graces . to his third anti-quere i answer , that it is more reasonable the * state should be subject to christs rule , then christ to its direction : but this quere is quite besides the question , till you prove infallibly , that christ hath prescribed a set unalterable divine government , to which all churches , nations , states , must necessarily conform ; and clearly manifest what this government is in all its particulars . till this be done the sole question is , whether christian princes , parliaments , states , synods , under the gospel , have not a lawfull power to prescribe ecclesiasticall lawes and forms of government , not repugnant to the word , not ( to christ himself , as you pretend , who is † king of kings , and lord of lords , above the reach or command of humane power ) but to all particular christian churches , congregations , subjects under their respective jurisdictions ? and whether the whole representative church and state of england in parliament , have not sufficient authority by gods law to over-rule and bind all , or any particular members or congregatious of it , as well as the major part of an independent congregation , power to * over-vote and rule the lesser part , and to order , yea bind any of their particular members ? a truth so clear , that no rationall man , good christian or subject can deny it : your prime argument then , wherewith you deceive poore silly people , that kings , parliaments , cannot prescribe lawes and canons to christ himselfe , the soveraigne lord and king of his church ; ergo , they cannot prescrib them to their christian subjects and churches , who by christs owne ordinance are subject to their lawfull soveraigne authority , is pure independent non-sence ; much like this ; a master , father , cannot prescribe laws , rules to the king or parliament , who are paramount him : ergo not to his servants , children , who are subject to him . as for the latter part of this querie , that the saints thinke christ is king alone over his churches , and hath not left them to substitutes , and the politicke considerations of men to bee governed by ; if hee meanes it onely of matters of faith , or of meere internall government over the soules of men , it may passe as tolerable ; but if hee intends it of externall ecclesiasticall government , discipline , or order in the church , or state as christian , hee must renounce his oath of allegeance , his late protestation , nationall vow and covenant , and make rom. 13. 1 , to 6. 1. pet. 2. 13 , 14. tit. 3. 1. 1 tim. 2. 1 , 2 , 3. to be apocryphall ; the confessions of all protestant churches heterodox ; and deny christian kings , magistrates , highest civill powers , to be christs substitutes , vicars , in point of government , ( to whom christ hath delegated his * kingly power ) as truely as ministers are his deputies in point of instruction , admonition , to whom he hath bequeathed his propheticall office . 2. in his answer to my second quere , he first wilfully misrecites it , then infers † a blind obedience from it to all superiours commands , be they never so unjust or contrary to gods word ; whereas my question speaks onely of lawfull decrees , &c. consonant to gods word , and to the civill lawes , government , and manners of the people ; to which every christian in point of conscience is bound to submit , ( without any danger of blinde obedience ) by the expresse resolution of rom. 13. 1 , to 6. 1 pet. 2. 14 , 15. tit. 3. 1. ezra 7. 26. josh. 1. 16 , 17 , 18. heb. 13. 17. if any man deny this verity , he must renounce not onely his christianity , but his allegeance and humanity too . but suppose ( saith he ) the whole parliament and synode should erre in commanding a government that is erronious or untrue , must we then submit unto it ? i answer , first , such an oversight is not to be presumed before it be actually committed ; and it is neither * christian , charitable , nor any way of christ , thus to prejudge their resolutions . secondly , if the decrees or government they establish be not directly against gods word , nor pernicious to our soules , though not altogether such as we could wish , yet we ought contentedly to submit unto it without opposition : if contrary to the word , we must then 〈◊〉 submit thereto for the present , and expect a redresse in gods due time . but if it be such a government and discipline under which we may freely enjoy the sincere and powerfull preaching of the word , the due administration of the sacraments , and all other ordinances of god necessary for our salvation and edification , ( as we may doubtlesse do under a presbytery , and that government our pious parliament intends to settle ) we ought cordially and cheerfully to submit thereto ; yea thankfully to embrace and blesse god for it , and can neither waiwardly oppugne nor refuse submission to it , without arrogancy , contumacy , and apparent schisme . as for his question concerning my owne and follow-brethrens sufferings , ( which we deeme our honour , not our shame ) i answer , that none of us suffered for opposing , writing , or speaking against the bishops legall authority , or any ceremonies established in our church by act of parliament ; but onely against their pretended divine right to their episcopall lordly power , diametrally contrary to scripture , fathers , councels , the best protestant and popish authors , the * statutes of our realm ; and against their innovations in doctrine , discipline , ceremonies , canons , &c. contrary to the lawes of the land , articles , and homilies of our church ( as the parliament hath resolved them ) as all our books demonstrate , and dr bastwicke in direct termes , in the preface of his flagellum : and therefore it could be neither pride , arrogance , nor schisme , but meer conscience and duty in us , to oppose them in these their usurpations and innovations only contrary to the laws of god and the realme : if he and his would containe themselves within these our bounds , our church should enjoy more peace , their persons more honour , then now they are likely to gaine , by opposing prejudicating both the parliaments and synods proceedings , though never so pious , consciencious , religious . 3. his pretended contradiction of the third quere to the first is formerly answered ; i shall onely adde , that things may be consonant to the * generall rules of gods word , though not precisely , prescribed in it : all independent ladies gentlewomen , ( and you i hope ) will grant , that their different fashions , habits , colours , attires , are all agreeable to gods word , ( if modest ) and warranted by this generall precept 1 tim. 2. 9. let women adorn themselves in modest apparel , though not particularized in the text : so may a church-government or dresse be consonant to scripture , though not precisely delineated or enjoyned by it . 4. to the fourth he gives no answer at all , but bids me prove it ; which i have done already in my independency examined , till it be disproved . 5. to the fifth , he grants that independency will overthrow all nationall churches and synods ; and the two independent brethren assure us in their reply to a. s p. 111 that in time it cannot but overthrow all other sorts of ecclesiasticall governments : is it not then a turbulent , dangerous , schismaticall , unquiet ( that i say not insufferable ) government , by your owne confessions , which will admit no equall nor corrivall ; nor yet any nationall church , synod , parliament , prince , or temporall magistrate , to exercise any ecclesiasticall , legislative , or magisteriall authority over any of their conventicles , members , persons , liberties , estates , much lesse over their consciences , as they are christians ? will any parliament , state , or nation , ( think you ) suffer such a government to take root among them , which will un-king , un-parliament , un-church , un-nation them altogether , and make each severall congregation an absolute monarchy , church , republick , nation , within it selfe , depending on , subordinate wholly to it selfe , as if it and they were no part or members of the publike ? the lord preserve us from such a dividing and overturning government . as for his invectives against the formality , tyranny , and enslaving of mens judgments in the presbyteriall way , as inconsistent with spirituall liberty and state priviledges ; they are meere groundlesse calumnies , to draw an odium on it , ( some of your male-contented party professing they would rather set up lordly episcopacy , which they have abjured , then it ) whereas these aspersions suit better with your independent modell , which is more rigid , uncharitable , unsociable , papall , tyrannicall , anti-monarchicall , anti-synodicall , yea anti-parliamentall , ( as i have elsewhere manifested ) then any other church-government whatsoever . for my pretended bitter expressions , they are so suitable to the effects and reall consequences of this new way , ( as you stile it ) that i could not expresse my self in other language , without injury to the truth : and if any of my best friends , who stood by me in my sufferings , deem themselves injured or reproached by them , ( as you pretend , though none of them have yet complained to me ) it is ( i hope ) onely scandalum acceptum , non datum ; and i presume my friends are so ingenuous , as not to be offended with me for * reproving only their errors with ingenuous freedom , in which i manifest my self their greatest friend , because i neither spare nor flatter them in their mistakes : however , though i really honour all my christian friends , as well independent as presbyteriall ( whom you most scandalously traduce as episcopall and time-servers heretofore ) yet i preferre the * truth of god , the peace and safety of my native , bleeding , dying church and countrey , ( now much endangered by our unhappy divisions ) before all friends or earthly comforts whatsoever . as for your pretended unsubjection of presbyterian synods and churches to the parliament in setling ecclesiasticall matters , i neither know nor plead for any such ; and our present assembly being both appointed , directed by , and submitting all their determinations wholly to the parliament , ( as they are obliged both by orders , protestation , covenant , and professe they ought to doe ) armes me sufficiently against any such improbable untrue surmise . 6. to the sixth quere he returnes no answer , but plainly yeelds , that there was never any independent church in any age or nation whatsoever , totally converted to the christian faith , till this present ; nor any one author that maintained it , till mr ainsworth ( a separarist ) from whom the apologists professe their dissent in some things . as for any reverend godly persons , who now contend for this new modell ( whose piety , eminecy make their errors not lesse false but farre more dangerous , & infectious ) though i reverence their persons , yea judgments : too in other things , yet i cannot subscrib to them in this new dangerous bypath , wch is not yet so beaten as to deserve the name of christs road-way . for the new supposed light , discovered in these dayes , touching church-government , if you meane it onely of your independency , ( which you borrowed from the brownists , or low-countrey anabaptists , the first inventors of this government ) i doubt when brought out to the light , and examined by the word of light , it will for the most part prove but twilight , * if not darknesse : if you meane it of any other light , that is truely such , we blesse god for it , and desire to walke brotherly and unanimously in it . in the seventh he grants , that the law of nature , which instructs men to unite themselves into one nationall state , or civill government , doth likewise teach them to joine themselves into , subject themselves unto one nationall church , and to nationall synods , parliaments , in point of church-government ; in which every particular man hath his vote though not in proper person ( which hee objects is necessarie , but i deny , since all cannot possibly assemble ) yet in their deputies , knights , burgesses , or selected commissioners : and though it bee t●ue , that christ hath not given magistrates such absolute authority over mens consciences as bodies , ( as you object ) yet hee hath enjoyned us to bee * subject to the higher powers , and to every lawfull ordinance of man ( not repugnant to his word ) even for conscience sake , and the lords sake too . for my passage , that there is no example of gathering independent congregations , not of infidels but of men already converted to , and setled in the christian faith , unlesse derived from the private conventicles of arrians , novatians , donatists , and other hereticks , who yet w●re not independent among themselves ; it is not a bitter speech , ( as you phrase it ) but a true one and onely bitter to you because undeniable : for as it was the * common practice of those seducing hereticks , sectaries to gather private conventicles of their own , and labour to draw other orthodox christians from their proper ministers to incorporate themselves into their private separated congregations , as historians informe us : so no such practice of alluring and stealing away other pastors sheep from their proper shepheard who first coverted them to , and edified them in the faith and grace of christ can be produced , but only in these hereticks and sectaries whose practice your independents imitate . as for those private conventicles ( as he phraseth them ) for which he saith i may blesse god , that i was remembred in them with tears , when others durst not name me ; as i do really blesse god for them and those who remembred me effectually in them , so i dare not stile them conventicles in an ill sense , since not † such by law , being only lawfull assemblies of private christians to seek unto god by prayer & fasting upon extraordinary occasions , which all good christians cannot but approve : but all these meetings were farre from being then stiled , reputed independent churches , or having any affinity with them ; so as they make nothing for his cause . 8. to the eighth quere he gives a negative answer , first in generall next in particular to some instances . first he grants , that there was a nationall church ( yea nationall assemblies , parliaments , determining church-affaires ) of the jewes , but these ( saith he ) cannot be a pattern for us now , because the covenant of the gospell is not made with any one particular nation , as with the jewes , but to all nations that embrace the gospel , and beleeve in christ ; you have no promise nor prophesie of any nation to be holy to god but the jewes nation , when they shall bee called againe . to which i reply , first , that independents have not the least precept or example for any solemne covenant made betwixt god and men , to walke in the wayes of god , &c. but onely * in the old testament , and church of the israelites , and that no private congregationall , but publ●…ke nationall covenant , prescribed by the supreme temporall magistrate and assembly , not by the priests or private synagogues ; yea the principall precepts , presidents for publike or private fasts , sanctifying the sabbath , &c. you likewise derive from the old testament and that church ; why then should not their nationall church be a pattern for us , and you to imitate , as well as their nationall covenant , fasting , sabbath-keeping ; the church of god being all one , ( as it is a church ) both under the old teastament and new ; and the pattern of it under the law a better pesident for the church under the gospel , ( of which it was a type and fore-runner ) then the pattern of the tabernacle shewed in the mount ( so frequent in your lips and books ) a president for your independent modell , to which it hath no analogy . 2. this reason is most absurd and false , the covenant of the gospel extending not onely to particular persons , but to * all nations and people whatsoever , who are both prophesied and promised to become christs own inheritance , possession , people , spouse , church and to be an holy nation , a pecvliar people &c. to the lord , in infinite texts both of the old and new testament , which i wonder the respondent should either not see , or forget , being ten thousand fold more cleare and visible then his independent platforme , which few or none can yet espy in scripture , history , or politiques . 2. he addes , that i cannot sh●…w any nation , every member whereof is qualified sufficiently to make up a church , which is christs body , unlesse i will take in drunkards , whore-masters &c. to be members of a church , whereas the word saith , they must be visible saints , and this cannot be avoided in a nationall church . i answer , that i dare not be wiser then my master christ , who informes me , that there will , and must be alwayes in the visible church on earth ( be it nationall , parochiall , presbyteriall , or congregationall ) * goats among the sheep , chaffe among the wheat ( which must grow together ●…ill the harvest , at the end of the world , to wit the day of judgment ; & good fish mixed with the bad in the churches net . 2. i finde a a judas , a devill , among the apostles , many b grosse sinners , idolaters , and corruptions in the jewish church ; many abuses , epicures , drunkards , wh●…re-masters , l bertines , unclean●… persons , and false teachers , in the churches of galatla , ephesus , colosse , pergamus , smyrna , thyatira and laodicea ; yet the scripture expresly stiles them c the body and churches of christ , and reputes such , members ( though corrupt ones ) of those churches ; who doe not actually cease to be members when excommunicated or suspended for a season , after they are baptized , and professe the christian faith : nor did any separate from these churches , though they had some corruptions and evill members . for you therefore to separate from , and unchurch such nationall or parochial churches , which have some such members in them , is to unchurch all churches both in the old , the new testament , and world it self , yea your own churches too . 3. the scripture is expresse , d that many are called , but few chosen and saved ; that all must be compelled to come into the church , though they want the wedding-garment : there never was , nor shall be here on earth , any one visible church compacted wholly of reall elected saints , without any mixture of reprobates , ; such a church we shall meet with onely in heaven , i am sure you can gather none such on earth . 4. are there no corrupt or drunken members in your independent churches , but onely reall visible saints ? are there no usurers , oppressors , corrupt dealers , covetous , proud , malicious , uncharitable , censorious persons ; no apparent hypocrites or dissemblers ? yea , are there not many sinnes and corruptions in the best , the choicest of all your members ; ( who cannot depart away , or quite separate themselves from their * own bosome corruptions , ) as there is and will be in the best of men during their mortality ? if your independent congregations consist of such members as these , of men subject to like passions , sinnes , infirmities as others in presbyteriall churches , what then is become of this your reason and principall ground of independency , or rather , separation , or brownism , its ancient proper title ? you may lay it up in lavander for another world , but can make no use of it in this , where you cannot so much as dream of a church of reall saints , without any mixture of corruption : and therefore rather then separate , or leave us in a p●…lt , because you cannot have your wills in all things , you should with blessed paul ( as tender-conscienced no doubt as any of you , and a lawfull pattern for your imitation , * to the iew become as iewes that you might gain the iewes , to them that are under the law , as under the law , that you might gaine them that are under the law : to them that are without law , as being not without law to god , but under the law to christ , that you might gaine them who are without law . to the weake you should become as weake , that you might gain the weak : yea be made all things to all men , that you might by all meanes gaine some . which how farre you in your new way are from , let all men judge . 3. for his answers to that of acts 15. all ages , churches , till this present , have held it both an expresse warrant and president for the lawfulnesse , usefulness of nationall and provinciall synods to determine differences in religion , ( which particular churches , persons cannot decide ) and making necessary canons for church-affaires ; neither can all his shifts elude it : to his first and second reasons or rather evasions i answer , it is clear by act. 15. 2. that the church of antioch it selfe could not decide the question , nor paul nor barnabas satisfactorily determine it , so farre as to quiet all parties ; and therefore they sent delegates to the apostles and elders at hierusalem , there to decide it : none is so ignorant but knowes , that there are many controversies now on foot concerning doctrine , discipline , and church-government , which no particular congregations , ( nay hardly an whole synod and parliament together ) are sufficient to settle and determine ; therefore there is a kinde of necessity of nationall synods as well as of parliaments , whence all ages , churches , have used them . to his third reason i reply , that it is evident by expresse words vers. 2. 5. 6. 7. 10. 19. 20. 24. that the principall end why the apostles went up to hierusalem , and why this synod ass●…mbled , was not to prove the false apostles lyars , ( as he affirmeth ) but to debate and consider this qvestion and matter , wheth●…r ●…he gen●…les ought ●…o bec●…rcumci s●…d ? to his fourth , i say , that though this meeting was occasional , yet it i●… a sufficient warrant for generall meetings , which are usua●…ly called , only upon speciall occasions of moment : in it there was a generall assembling of all the apostles , elders , and brethren at hierusalem , ( where there were then divers particular congregations , as our assembly long since resolved from acts 2. 6. 41 , 42 46 , 47. c. 4. 4. c. 5. 14 15 , 16 , 42. c. 6. 1. to 9. c. 8. 2 , 3 , 4. c. 11. 1 , 2. c. 12. 12 , 13. c. 21. 17 , 18 23 , 22. which if independents deny , then they must prove , that all the apostles and elders at hierusalem were pastors but of oneand the self-same individuall congregation ; and then what becomes of their independent churches ; which have no apostle , and onely one pastor , but scarce any elders in them ) who upon this speciall and some other publike occasions met all together , and that not to advise onely but determine and resolve , as is evident by vers . 6. to 32. c. 16. 4. c. 21. 25. which compared with the texts of the old testament in the margin of my quere , , where we finde frequent nationall generall assemblies , synods , or parliaments ( if i may so stile them ) among the israelites ( prescribed , appointed by god , and no wayes contradicted , revoked under the gospel ) determining † all ecclesiasticall controversies setling , ordering all church-affaires , matters concerning the arke , temple , sacrifices , passeover , priests , nationall covenants , fasting-dayes , festivalls , suppressions of idolatry , false-worship , reliques of idolatry , and the like ; are an impregnable evidence of the lawfulnesse of nationall synods , parliaments , assemblies , in all christian kingdomes , republikes , upon the like occasions , and that they are endued with equivalent authority ; there being no one text in the old or new testament , nor any shadow of reason , ( but mee●… shifts or obs●…inacy of spirit against publike govetment , order , and authority ) to controll it . if any pretend they doe it onely out of consci●…nce , if they will but seriously gage their owne deceitfull hearts , i feare their conscience will prove but wilfulnesse , having neithe●… precept pre●…dent , nor right reason to direct it : so as i may truely 〈◊〉 his own calumny against me on him and his , that his and their own name , will , or opinion , is their onely argument against this shining truth , which all ages , churches , have acknowledged , ratified , practised , without the least dispute . 9. to my ninth quere , and arguments in it he returnes nothing worthy reply , but upon this petitio principii , or begging of the thing disputed ; that the scripture and apostles have prescribed a set forme of government in all after ●…ges for the churches of christ , which he neither can , nor endevours to prove ; and that churches in the apostles dayes were independent though doubtlesse all churches were then subject to the apostles lawes orde●…s , edicts , decisions , though no immediate ministers or pastors of them . ( as appeares by their epistles to them ) therefore not independent : so as my arguments hold firme , and his answers weak . as for his retorted argument : that the scriptures were writ in the infancy of the church : therefore wiser and better scriptures may be writ now ; it is a blasphemous and absurd conclusion they being all writ by the spirit and inspiration of god himselfe the very * a●…cient of dayes , who hath neither infancy nor imperfection , as the church hath . to his second objection that i would needs mak a nationall church , state , more perfect , understanding , and wise , then a congregationall : i f●…are are not to averre it●… since warranted by * direct scriptu●…e and since your selves must grant , that the church under the law was more perfect then that before it ; the church under the gospell more perfect then under the law ; and the churches under the gospel , at the end of the apostles dayes , when furnished with more divine knowledge , scriptures , gospels , officers , and rules of faith , manners , discipline , more compleat and perfect then at their beginning to pre●… : no man doubts , that though a * new-born infant and christian have all the parts and members of a man and saint , yet they have not so much perfection , understanding , knowledg , judgment , strength of grace , or spirituall wisdome , as grown men and christians . an aged , experienced , growne minister , christian , is more compleat and perfect then a new converted † novice , or babe in grace ; ergo a growne and nationall church , then one but in the embryo . your independent churches , in their primitive infancy , when they had but two or three members onely in them , and wanted both elders , deacons , and other necessary church-officers ( as mr sympsons church first did ) i am certain in your own opinion were not so complete and mature as you intended to make them afterwards by degrees : a village is not so complete a republike or corporation as a city , nor a city as a † kingdom , not a family as a county , not a consistory as a synod , nor a cou●…t of aldermen as a common-cou●…cell , not that as a parliament : therefore an independent singular congregation not so complete as a nationall church , being oft enforced to pray in the aid of other churches for advice , assistance &c. ( as your selves confesse ) which an whole nationall church need not to doe . in 〈◊〉 himselfe confesseth , that the apostles made new rules for government and discipline as occasion served ; and that as god fitted occasions , so he made knowne new rules successively by degrees , not at once ; and added new officers , as evangelicall b●…shops , elders , deacons , widowes , evangelists , doctors , pastors , teachers ( which some distinguish from presbyters , and d●…fine to be severall offices : ) therefore the infant church in the apostles dayes was not so compleat , perfect in all parts as the multiplied and growne churches afterwards . 10. my tenth q●…re he wil●…ully misrecites as he doth the rest , else he had not the least shadow of exception against it , a●… propounded it , and then 〈◊〉 an answer by way of dilemma to it : to which i reply , that if the parliament and synod shall by publike consent establish a presbyteriall church-government , as most consonant to gods word , the lawes and reiglement of this kingdome , independents and all others are bound in conscience to submit unto it under paine of obstinacy , singularity , &c. in case they cannot really prove it diametrally contrary to the scriptures , and simply unlawfull in point of conscience , not by fancies , or remote inconsequences , but by direct texts and precepts ( which they can never doe ; ) and that because it is thus commanded ; established by the higher powers , to which in all lawfull or indifferent things wee are bound to render all ●…eatfull obedience , without resistance , even for conscience sake , by expresse gospel texts , rom. 13. 1 , to 7. tit. 3. 1. 1 pet. 2 14 , 15. which i wish you would p●…actise better , and make make more conscience of then now you doe . as for his crosse interrogatories , i answer , 1. that if the popes councels command lawfull things to those who a●…e subject to their power , they are as well to be obeyed as the commands of * heathen emperours , magistrates , parents , husbands , by christian subjects , wives , servants , living under them , are . 2. that there is a great difference between matters of opinion onely , and of practise ; that his instanced points , whether lo●… episcopacy be jure divino ; or their making out processe under their owne names and seales be agreeable to the law of the land are matters onely of opinion simply in themselves ; and if a synod and parliament should have determined the first , and the iudges resolved the last , affirmatively , their resolutions could not binde my judgement absolutely , so farre as to subscribe their opinions as undoubted truths , unlesse they could satisfie my arguments and authorities to the contrary ; but yet they should & ought to bind me for the present so far as to submit to their authority & processe in their own names in things within their legall cognisance : so if the parliament and assembly shall establish any church-government , as most agreeable to the scriptures and our lawes , though this binds not all independents to be simply of their opinion , unlesse the reasons and arguments produced for it be sufficient to convince their judgments , yet it binds them in point of practise and obedience , outwardly to submit thereto , and not to separate from it , under pain of arrogancy , faction , schisme , unlesse they can clearly manifest it to be absolutely unlawfull and repugnant to the scripture . as for my own objected challenge to the bishops & iudges , about the jus divinum of lordly prelacy and bishops processein their own names ; when i made it , i was certain i had both † scripture , fathers , councels , acts of parliament , the suffrages of all forraigne reformed churches , writers , and our owne learnedest bishops , authors in all times against the first ; and direct acts , resolutions of parliament , patents , unanswerable law-authorities , and reasons against the latter : therefore a few lordly prelates opinions in their owne case , or the subitane , forced , extra judiciall resolution of the iudges ( not then published ) could no more conclude my judgment , nor make me guilty of arrogancy , obstinacy , or schism then , than their forced judgments for the lawfulnesse of loanes and ship-money , against expresse acts and judgments of parliament , oblige me or others , then or now , not to deeme that taxe illegall : and when you can produce as many good authorities , reasons from scripture , antiquity , acts of parliament , writers of all sorts , against the lawfulnesse of presbytery , as i have done against lordly episcopacy by divine right , bishops making out processe under their own names , seals , and † ship-mony , neither of which were ever setled by any former parliament , and have all bin expresly voted against in this ; i shall then excuse you from arrogancy and schisme , but till this be done , ( as i presume it will never be ) the guilt of both these wil stick fast upon you , if you readily conforme not in outward practice to that government the parliament shall establish . if they should settle independency , i am certaine you would then write and preach for universall obedience to it , ( which you now publikely call for so eagerly without authority or proof of its divinity ) because thus setled , without dispute : therefore by like reason you ought to submit to a presbytery , or such other government as shall be resolved on by those intrusted with this care ; notwithstanding any thing you have said , or this new independent sencelesse argument of * mr i. g. which some of your partie much rely on : the saints shall judg the world ( at the day of judgment ) 1 cor. 6. 2. ergo , the parliament ( chosen by the rifraffe of the world ) and the synod , may not make any lawes in matters of discipline , worship , or government , to regulate or oblige saints now : they might better have concluded , ergo the parliament , or any secular magistrate , cannot judge them now for any secular matter ; since the apostle useth this expression onely to blame them for going to law before heathen ( not christian ) iudges , for secular matters , vers. 1. 6 , 7. such independent arguments will but ill support your independent fabrick . 11 to my 11. quere he gives only a negative answer , and then declaims against presbytery without ground or reason : but because i have proved the truth of what he denies in my independency examined , and in some following pages , i shal not trouble you with any further proof , except these two particulars : 1. that independency is in reality meer separation and brownism , lately christened with this new title , to take off its odium : and if so , i doubt not but it is a nursery of schisms , sectaries , &c. 2. that we finde by wofull experience , what bloudy divisions , warres schisms , the toleration but of one religion and sect in our realms contrary to that established , ( to wit popery and papists ) hath produced in all our dominions , to their imminent danger , and almost utter ruine ; what then will the free permission of many independent different forms of churches , sectaries do ? will it not produce many more troubles , dangers , wars , schisms , then we have hitherto felt ? yea , if every man ought to have freedom of conscience , to vent what opinions , & set up what governments he deems most conformable to the word in his own private fancie , you must indulge papists this liberty as well as others : and then how soone will they over-run us for the future , how justly can we take up armes to suppresse them for the present ? consider seriously of these and other publike mischiefes of your way , and that liberty of conscience you so much contest for , ( which in truth is nothing but meere lawlesnesse , or licentiousnesse , to do * what seemes good in your owne eyes , as if there was no king in israel , without respect to the publike peace , weale , or glory of god ) and then happily you may in time discerne , recant your errour . 12 to my twelfth quere he onely answers , that i fall a jeering of my brethren , ( a palpable untruth ) and that i put a nick-name on them , to make them odious ; to wit , the title of independents , which they disclaime ; not answering one syllable to the substance of the question . to which i reply : first , that the title of independency ( of which you are now ashamed ) was at first assumed , approved by your selves , and many of your party doe still owne , though some disclaim it , of purpose to evade the titles of separatists and brownists , with whom you really concurre in practice : besides , you very well know that this title was imposed on , and owned by you long before i writ ; therefore i could not father this brat upon you : but if you be offended with this name , i desire you in your next pamphlet to discover to us your owne christian name , with the true title of your party , and the government you plead for as the only way of christs institution , ( all which you have hitherto concealed ) and then ( god willing ) i shall give you a further answer to this cavill , or retract this title ; till then , i must informe you , that it most proper for your party , who will have every one of your owne private congregations , a complete absolute corporation , exempred from , unsubjected to , independent on any other , be it a nationall , synodall , provinciall , parochiall assembly , parliament or kings themselves in any church-affaires : you must therefore still retaine this title , whiles you maintaine such paradoxes both in opinion , practice , ( and that by meere independent inferences ) as justly appropriated to you ; conveniunt rebus nomina saepe suis , being never more exactly verified then in this your suitable name . but you object , first , that you are accountable for your actions to every neighbour church , that shall in the name of christ require it . secondly , that you stand not independent from , but hold communion with all other churches , both in the ordinances , and in asking counsell and advice mutually . to the first i answer , 1. that if you are accountable for your actions to every particular neighbour church , t●…n why not much more to a synod or parliament , whose ecclesiasticall jurisdiction over you or your churches is denied by you ? secondly , if you are thus accountable to every neighbour church , doe you intend it of parochiall . episcopall , or presbyteriall churches , as well as independent ; or of independent onely ? if of independent onely , as i suppose you doe , then you appeale onely to churches of your owne partie , frame , judgment , and make one of them subordinate , accountable to another , but not to any other church ; which is an apparent schisme , separation from all other churches , and contradicts your second objection : if of all other sorts of churches as well as independent , you must either grant them true churches of christ , and then you have no ground to sever from them ; or if false , or no true churches of christ , ( as you in truth repute them ) then by your own principles they are no competent iudges of ecclesiasticall affaires , nor you accountable to them . thirdly , how ( i pray ) doe you hold your selves accountable to every neighbour church ? by way of subordination , correction or just appeal ? that i am certain you will deny : or only by way of voluntary information and satisfaction , when required , which i conceive you mean ? if so only , then this is properly no account at all , or but arbitrary at most , which you may deny if you please ; and if you erre , or prove faulty , or refractory , this neighbour church can but admonish , not enforce you to correct your errours or injustice : and so this will prove but a meere mockery in stead of an account . to the second i answer , that if you stand not independent from other churches , but hold communion with them in ordinances , and in mutuall counsell and advice , then 1. why doe you separate from them as no true churches , and oppose their way of government with so much bitternesse ? secondly , why doe you refuse to administer baptisme and the lords supper to those who are their members , in your churches , unlesse they be professed members of some independent congregation ? thirdly , why do you not follow their advice counsell , or the parliaments synods admonition , and submit therto ; who now earnestly perswade you from your way of separation , division , in these distracted times ? the end of demanding good counsell and advice being but to follow , not reject it , where there is humility , ingenuity , or sincerity in those who ask it . you must therefore either disclaime these objected concessions , or become more tractable for the future . 4. you tell us in the next succeeding lines , that neither i ; nor synods , nor this synod , are infallible , but as subject to errours as others ; and that never † more dangerous errours have been confirmed then by synods : and therfore men are not bound in conscience to their decrees upon penaltie of sinne , arrogancy , &c. but pray sir may not you and your independent ministers , churches erre as well as others ? is infallibility annexed onely to your private chaires , conventicles ? if not , then why may not your new-minted way be a meere erronious by-path , and no way of christ as well as other waies , and you erre herein as well as synods in other things ? why will you have the major vote in your congregationall decisions to over-rule and bind the rest to obedience , ( as your practice and opinions intimate ) since the major part may possibly be mistaken , as well as the lesse dissenting ? shall nothing binde in any churches , but what is unanimously voted nemine contradicente ? or shall one or two dissenting voices over-rule the rest or not be bound by the most ? or where all consent , may not all yet be in an errour , and not discerne it , through selfe-love to their owne wayes and opinions , till others of contrary judgements discover and convince them of their errour ? away then with this fond argument and evasion ; synods and parliaments may erre in some things , ergo they must binde us in no thing : is this good logicke or divinity ? good ministers may and doe erre sometimes in some points of divinitie , ergo wee will beleeve them in none , no not in those things in which they doe not erre . will you throw away all the apple because one part of it only is rotten ? or reject communion with the best of men because they have some infirmities ? deal then with the ecclesiasticall decrees of synods and parliaments as in wisdome , in conscience you are bound to doe : where they are just , equall , not opposite to the word , embrace , submit unto them ; when erronious or contrariant to the expresse word ( not to your own sa●…s , inferences or opinions ) you may differ from them in judgment , but you must patiently suffer under them in point of practise & obedience ( if meerly practicall ) till a further season , and not disturb the churches peace by opposition or schism : which is as good , as seasonable christian advice , as that you conclude with unto me , which i heartily wish your selfe had first followed , who have more defamed the ways of christ and used more personall unchristian bitternesse then i am guilty of . you wish indeed , o that a spirit of love wore maintained among those that are brethren : though they differ in judgment , must they needs differ in affection ? i say the same . but o then why seperate you from us , yea passe uncharitable censures on us as if we were not your brethren ? one kingdom , one city , house , doth now , on●… heaven shall heareafter contain us both : why not then one church , government , one church militant , as well as one triumphant ? if you deem not your * selves more holy then your brethren , or be not swelled up with spirituall pride ( as your stiling your selves † men of rich anoynting from god , the most religiously affected , and best conscienced people of the land , the most precious men , &c. with your separation from us , and harsh censures of us , make most men suspect ) then why refuse you to close with us now , as you have done heretofore ? could our ministers , churches , when more corrupt , convert , regenerate , edifie , save you , and yet not now so much as hold you , when more refined and reformed ? if yea , then let us both shake hands without any more encounters ; if nay , then fairely chalke out your yet concealed independent way and platforme in all its severall lineaments , and beautifull native colours ; produce your severall punctuall scriptures , arguments , to maintain it , ( there being none of them extant in these your observations for ought i can find ) that so i may see the frame and grounds of this new fabricke , in as large or narrow a modell as you please : and then doubt not but an answer shall be given to what ever you modestly set forth , ( if worthy answer ) in case it be not satisfactorie ; or else a friendly embrace thereof , if agreeable to the spirit and word of truth , by him who hath learned pauls peremptorie resolution , 2 cor. 13. 8. we can do nothing against the truth , but for the truth ; in which resolution ( god assisting ) i resolve to live and die . certaine briefe animadversions on mr john goodwins theomachia , in iusti●…ion of some passages in my independency , examined , unmasked &c. and of the parliaments ecclesiasticall power . it is not my intention to repeate or refute all the unseasonable offensive passages in the epistle or body of this treatise , which tacitly reflect upon the present religious parliament and assembly , raising needlesse feares and jealousies of them both ( in matters of religion and church-government ) as if they really intended * to increase our misery and bondage , by rejecting and oppressing truth ; to conjure all mens gifts , parts industrie into a synodicall circle ; and that there is almost as little hope of gathering grapes from thornes , or figges of thistles , as of having the joy of our faith holpen , or encreased , or any decrease , but rather increase of evills by them ; the resolutions of councells , and synods themselves upon the matter and just account , being but the fruits , or puttings forth of the learning and judgment of a very few men , not alwayes of the most consciencious &c. i shall only select some few particulars worthy consideration ; to fill up my vacant pages . first , it may be justly questioned , whether the maine doctrine prosecuted in it b that it is the greatest imprudence under heaven , for any man or ranke of men whatsoever to appeare , or so much as to lift up an hand , or thought , against any way , doctrine or practise whatsoever clayming origination or descent from god , till we have securitie upon securitie , evidence upon evidence , yea all the securitie that men in an ordinary way are capable of , and foundations as cleare as the noone day , that such wayes , doctrines and practises , only pretend unto god as the author of them and that in truth they are not at all from him , but either from men , or from baser parentage ; that they are but counterfeits and pretenders only , and stand in no relation at all , but that of emnitie and opposition unto god ; and tha●… we are not to act the value of one haire of our head against them , untill we see their condemnation written with a beame of the sunne , by the finger of god himselfe ; untill he hath disclaimed or renounced it from heaven , either by giving such wisedome unto men , whereby to detest the vanitie of it , or else hath quite rased it out of the flesh and tables of the hearts of his servants , &c. be orthodox or tolerable ? for these ensuing reasons . 1. first , because it opens a wide gate to the reviving of all old , the spreading and propagating of all new heresies . errors , schismes , sects and opinions whatsoever , without the least timely opposition or prevention , to the endangering of infinite soules , and disturbance of the churches , kingdoms peace . for there is * no hereticke , schismaticke , or sectary whatsoever ( though never so pernicious , grosse or detestable ) but pretends his way , doctrine , practise , opinions to be the way and truth of christ , clayming their origination and descent from god , yea , * producing perverting the scripture it selfe to justifie them , as the * devill cited and wrested scripture to tempt christ : yea , our saviour and the scripture informe us , that many false teachers shall arise , and doe great miracles , signes and wonders , insomuch that they shall deceive many , yea the greatest part of the world , and if it were possible the very elect ; * that satan and his ministers also transforme themselves into angels of light : that false teachers usually come to seduce men in sheeps clothing , with all deceiveablenes and craftines , whereby they lye in waite to deceive ; and advise us frequently to beware of such , and not admit them into our houses , &c. and must we therefore not speedly oppose , resist , avoyd , suppresse them or any of them now , because they thus pretend they are of and from god himselfe ; but stay ●…ll we see their condemnation written with a beam of the sun by the finger of god himselfe , and till he hath disclaimed , renounced them from heaven , by some visible judgment or destruction ? if a●…rianisme , 〈◊〉 , socinianism , anabaptisme , or any anciently exploded heresies , or schismes should revive and sprout up among us ( as some have lately done ) should wee use such indulgence as this towards them , because they pretend their origination and descent from heaven ; and their opinions not disputable only , but warranted by the scripture ? alas what confusion , what inundation of heresies , schismes , and monstrous opinions would this presently introduce into our church to its destruction , ruine , if such a paradox were once admitted ? 2 secondly , because it is contrary to these expresse precepts and presidents both of the old and new testament , which you may peruse at leasure , deut. 13. 1. to 18. levit. 19. 17. joshua . 22. 9. to 24. psalme . 119. 104. 128. 2 kings . 22. 8. to 27. ier. 4. 30. 31. ( a pregnant place ) c. 14. 14. to 18. cap. 23. 13. to 23. cap 27. 15. to 19. c. 29. 8 , 9. ezra . 13. throughout matthew 7. 15. cap. 24. 11. 23. 24. 25. 26. mark . 13. 5 , 6. 22 , 23 , 24. acts 13. 6. to 14. cap 15. 1. to 33. cap. 17. 11. rom. 16. 17. 18. 2 cor. 11. 13. 14 , 15. galath. 1. 6. 7 , 8 , 9 10. c. 2. 4. to 18. ( a noted place ) c. 3. 1 , 2. 3. ephes. 4. 14 , 15. phil. 3. 1. 2. 3. coloss. 2. 8. 18. to the end , 1 thes. 5. 21. 2 thes. 2. 1. to 16. c. 3. 6. 7. 1 tim. 4. 1. to 7. chap. 1. 20. chap 5. 20 21 , 22. 2 tim. 2. 16. 17 , 18. 23 , 24 , 25 , 26. c. 4. 1. to 6. titus . 1. 9. to 15. chapter 3. 9. 10 , 11. 2 pet. 2. 1. 2 , 3. c. 3. 17. 18. 1 ioh. 4. 2. 3. 2 john 10. 11. jude 3. 4. &c. revel. 2. 14. 15. 20 , 21. compared together . f paul would not give way to false apostles no not for an houre , that the truth of the gospell might continue among the galatians , and resisted peter to his face , as soone as ever hee walked disorderly , and gave the least countenance to false teachers , though a chiefe apostle ; and did not demur upon the matter ; yea the churches * of pergamus , and thyatyra , are sharply blamed for suffering some among them to hold the doctrine of balaam , and the nicolaitans ; and to suffer jesabell the prophetesse to teach and seduce : and shall we permit them , now , without restraint ? 3 thirdly , because it is contrary to these received unquestionable maximes of divinitie , policie , and morality . principijs obstare : venienti occurrere morbo , to withstand the very beginnings of errors , heresies , mischiefes ; schismes : to crush these cockatrices in the shell ; rather to keep then cast them out , turpius ejicitur quàm non admittitur hostis . all wise men hold preventing physicke best for their bodies , states , and why not for their souls and churches ? since , sero medicina paratur , cum mala per longas invaluére moras . 4 fourthly , because contrary to the h policy , practise of most godly magistrates , princes , ministers , churches in all ages , nations , which never indulged such liberty to opinions , new wayes , practises , especially to new church-governments , schismes , and conventicles , ( which he here pleads for ) set up only by private spirits in opposition to the publick established church-regelment . indeed in some matters mearly of opinion which are not dangerous or schismaticall , some latitude may and must be left to men ; but matters of government are such tender things , as differences & varieties therin cannot be tollerated in one and the selfe same church and state without infinite inconveniencies and disturbances , especially where every church shall be independent , subject to no other canons , rules , but its own peculiar arbitrary dictates . 2 it may be questioned , whether the independent way he there so earnestly pleads for , be the way of christ , or not ? since he neither discovers to us what it is , nor produceth any one text to prove it christs own way , nor one example to warrant it in any age : but gives us good grounds to suspect it none of his without much scrutiny . 1 for first , he confesseth , i that this way is every where spoken against , even by some that would be thought prime men and pillars in the temple of god ; and insinuates ; that the parliament , assembly and generality of the k ministers and people of the realm , are bent against it ; therefore being a new way , never yet heard off in the world in any age , or church of christ , and thus generally opposed by our whole church and state even in these times of reformation ; we may l justly suspect it is no way of christ , till we see its approbation written in a beam of the sun with the finger of god himself , and till he hath justified and owned it as his , from heaven . 2 he tacitly acknowledgeth , it a m government set up by a few private men , not only without but against the authority & commands of the parliament and supream temporall magistrates : yea , which not only denyes but oppugnes the temporall magistrates , parliaments , synods directions or coercive power in ecclesiasticall affairs ; directly contrary to the scriptures , as i have largely proved by many texts , in my ( o ) independency examined . only i shall adde , that not only the kings and temporall magistrates of the israelites ; but even heathen p kings and princes ( as cyrus , artaxerxes , darius , nebuchadnezzar , the king & nobles of nineve &c. ) enacted good and wholsom laws , for the worship , honor and service of the true god , and to further his people in the building of his temple ; who thereupon were enjoyned to * pray for their prosperity , as the marginall scriptures evidence . yea , r paul himselfe even in matters of religion pleaded his cause before festus , felix , king agrippa , and at last appealed unto caesar an heathen emperor , herein ; yea he enjoyns all christians s to pray even for heathen kings . magistrates , and to submit to all their lawfull commands for conscience sake , to whose judicature and tribunals , t christ himself and his apostels willingly submitted themselves upon all occasions when brought before them , without demurring to their jurisdictions . therfore christian princes & magistrates who were long since predicted to become nursing fathers to the church under the gospel , have much more power and jurisdiction in church-government and affairs within their own dominions . 3 for that it appears to be away that will breed infinite confusions , disorders , by confounding v the bounds of parishes , renting congregations , families , and most relations assunder ; & giving way to every sect to chuse ministers , erect churches of their own without controle , in point of position ( though their practise be quite contrary where they have power , they admitting no other kind of government but independency in new-england , and excommunicating , or banishing those who will not submit unto it : ) a government inconsistent with royalty , and the civill government ; and so none of christs , who never erected any church-gouernment to clash with or controle the civill . 4 whereas he pretends , that x persons of one family or parish may be members of severall churches , without any inconvenience , schisme , or distraction ; as well as members of severall companies and trades ; and therefore independency is no occasion of divisions . i answer , 1. that y two cannot walke peaceably and lovingly together unlesse they are agreed , especially in matters of religion ; and those who in point of conscience cannot communicate or agree together in one church , will never questionlesse accord well together in one family , bed , parish , kingdom , as experience manifests . 2. there is a great difference between severall trades and halls in one city , parish , kingdome , and severall formes of church-government , in these particulars which occasion unity in the one , but schismes in the others 1. all trades societies hold one another lawfull , usefull , necessary , agreeable to the lawes of god and the realme without dispute ; & so they breed no contrariety of opinions or disaffection : but each different church deems the other unlawful , & in no way of christ , so as they cannot with safe conscience joyn or communicate together : and therupon they sever one from another . 2. every several trade and society , even in their very trade is subject to the general government , laws of the city & realm wherin they are , to which they appeale and have recourse upon all occasions of difference , none craving an exemption or independency from the whole corporation , parliament or supream magistrate in matters which concern their government , but deriving their corporations , charters , laws and priviledges from them : which subordination keeps them all in peace and unity . but independent churches deny any subordination , subjection to the ecclesiasticall lawes and edicts of parlements , of temporall magistrates or synods , and will be regulated , obliged onely by their own peculiar edicts : which must needs occasion infinite schismes , and disorders : therefore the cases are far different from one the other . thirdly , christians , as christians , are all of one and the self-same society and profession , as those of one trade or calling are ; therefore they should have all but one common church and government , as these trades have : to set then the comparison upright , we must state it thus ; if some of one fraternity in london ( suppose the merchant-taylers , sadlers , mercers , or the like ) should fall out among themselves , and one would have one forme of government , another another , and thereupon divide themselves into severall conventicles and petty meetings in corners , not at their common hall , and one chuse one government , master , or warden , another another , and so sever the company , and continue independent ; this ( no doubt ) would prove an apparent schisme , and seminary of infinite divisions , to the distraction , destruction of the whole company and fraternity . this is the true state of your independency ; yea mr goodwins present case in his own parish , miserably divided , disordered by his independent way : which hath induced him to refuse to administer the lords supper , ( yea baptisme to some children of parishioners ) for a yeares space or more , though they offer to be examined by him ; esteeming them none of his flocke , ( preaching but seldome to them , though he receive their tithes : ) and instead thereof to gather an independent congregation to himselfe , out of divers parishes and his owne , to whom hee prescribes a covenant ere they be admitted members of it ; preaching , praying , administring the sacrament to them alone in private conventicles , neglecting his parishioners : which hath engendred such discontents and rents in his parish , even among the well-affected and truely religious , that he must either desert it or his independent way . what schismes and discords this new way hath raised in other parishes , is so well knowne to the world , that i need no other evidence to prove it a schismaticall by-path , and so no way of christ the * prince of peace , who prescribes nought else but precepts of peace and unity to his churches , and is most offended with their schismes . finallie , i cannot thinke this way a way of christ , because i finde it a pioner and underminer of parliamentary authority , devesting parliaments of all manner of jurisdiction in matters of religion and church-government ; witnesse the passage of the two independent brethren recited in my independency examined p. 3. ( which certainly weares a maske as yet , since she never appeared bare-faced to the world , not one of her patrons hitherto presenting us with her in her native colours , or lineaments ) whose guilt this author by his explanation , to make it good , rather aggravates then extenuates . he writes , that the brethren in the mentioned period and expressions , reflected onely upon the generalitie of the land , who according to the lawes , yea according to the principles of all reason and equitie have the right of nominating persons unto parliamentarie trust and power , but have no avthority or power from christ ●…o nominate or appoint who shall be the men that shall order the affaires of christs kingdome , or institvte the government of his chvrches : these are that secular root , out of which the brethren conceive an impossibility that a spirituall extraction should be made ; that is , that a legitimate ecclesiastick power shovld according to the mind of christ , or any precept or president of scriptvre , bee by them conferred vpon any man . and this impossibility conceived by them they onelie illustrate and declare by that parallel expression in job , who can bring a cleane thing out of an uncleane ? &c. but to hold , that the persons so elected as hath been said , have a power by vertue of such nomination or election to enact lawes and statutes in matters of religion , and to order under mulcts and penalties how men shall worship and serve god , as it is a meanes to awaken the eye of jealousie upon them , and so is seven times more destructive unto , and undermining not onlie of their power , but of their honour , peace , and safetie also , then any thing that is found in the way so ill intreated ; so it is a setling of a power upon the electors of such persons , i meane the promiscuous multitude of the land , yea of a greater power then ever iesus christ himselfe had , at least then ever he exercised ; for as dare r●…gem , argues a greater power then esse r●…gem ; as hee that buildeth an house hath more honour then the house , hebr. 3. 3. so to nominate and appoint who shall have power to umpire in matters of conscience and of god , * to determine what shall be preached , and what not ; what shall be beleeved , and what not , is a branch of a greater root of power , then the exercise of the power that is committed to others in this behalfe . now though iesus christ had a power , and was authorized by god to be a law-giver himselfe unto his churches and saints in their spirituall republike , yet it is hard to prove , that he ever he invested any other with such a power : his apostles themselves were no lords over the faith of the saints , nor had they anie power or authoritie to impose any thing upon men , as † necessarie either to be beleeved or practised , but what they had in expresse commission and charge from jesus christ himselfe to impose upon such termes , &c. the summe of this large passage is , that there is not onelie an improbabilitie , but absolute impossibilitie , that the parliament should have any power at all to enact lawes and statutes in matters of religion , church-government , gods worship or service , because the people who elect them have no such power , and so an impossibilitie of deriving any such authoritie to them ; and to affirme the contrarie , is not onely to awake the eyes of jealousie upon them , but exceedingly destructive to , and undermining of not onely their power , but honour , peace , and safetie also . whether this be not directly to undermine the authority of parliaments and temporal magistrates in all church-affairs and matters of religion , contrarie to your late covenant and protestation , and that in the most ; transcendent maner that ever any have hitherto attempted in print , let all wise men judg : i am sory such ill passages should fall from so good a pen . but to give a short answer to this extravagant discourse : first , this objection might be made against the generall assemblies , parliament : kings of the israelites , who a were chosen by the people , yet they made lawes and statutes concerning religion , and gods worship , with his approbation , without any such exception , as i have elsewhere proved . secondly , god himself ( as i formerly ●…uched ) used the ministry , assistance of cyrus , artaxerxes , durius , with other heathen princes and magistrates , for the building of his temple , and advancement of his worship , for which they made decrees , statutes ; notwithstanding this objected reason reflects more upon them and their electors , then on such who are christians by externall profession . thirdly , most christian kings and magistrates in the world , ( even those who claime to be hereditary , as the yet continued formes of their coronations and instalments manifest ) come in by the peoples election , as well as such members of parliament who are eligible , yet you cannot without disloialty and absurdity , deny them authoritie in matters of religion and church-government . fourthly , your selfe doe not onely grant , but argue , b that every private man hath , yea ought to have power to elect and constitute his own minister : and no doubt you will grant , that private men have power likewise to set up independent congregations , which have authority to prescribe such covenants , lawes and rules of government , discipline , worship , as themselves think most agreeable to the word : if then they may derive such an ecclesiasticall authority to independent ministers and churches , why not as well to parliaments and synods likewise by the self-same reason ? fi●…hly , it is cleare by sundry instances in scripture , and your owne text , that god doth oft times make use of unsanctified persons , and the rude multitude , ( whom you so much under-value ) to advance his glory , propagate his gospel , promote his worship , vindicate his truth , and edifie his church : he can poure a spirit of prophesie upon c a baalam , a saul , a gamaliel , a persecuting high-priest ; he can make a d judas an apostle , yea send him to preach and build his church , as well as a peter : wee read in the evangelists , that none were so forward as the vulgar e multitule to beleeve , follow , professe christ , and embrace the gospel , though many of them did it out of sinister ends . therefore they may well have power to chuse such persons who shall and may make lawes to promote the gospel , and government of the church of christ . sixthly , those who have no skill at all in law , physick , or architecture , have yet judgment and reason enough to make choice of the best lawyers , physitians , architects , when they need their help . those who are unfit , or unable to be members of parliament themselves , ( as most of the electors are ) have yet had wisdom enough in all ages , and especially at this present , to elect the most eminent & ablest men for such a service : those who are unmeet to be kings , magistrates , commanders , or ministers , have yet skill enough to chuse able persons for such offices , & power to delegate to them such parliamentary , royall , magisteriall , pastorall authority , as is necessary for their severall offices , which those who elected them never had actually , but onely originally or virtually in them , not to use , but derive them unto others : why then may not our free-holders , who have voices in electing the members of our parliaments , and the commonalty of the land , ( whom you scandalously terme , the vilest and most unworthy of men , though there be a degree of vulgar people viler and unworthier then they in all respects , who have no votes in such elections ) have sufficient authority in them to elect and nominate such fitte persons , who by virtue of such nomination or election shall have right and power to enact lawes , statutes , in matters of religion , worship , and church-government , not dissonant from gods word , to which themselves and others by gods owne ordinance must submit ? if the common people , who neither are nor can be parliaments , * emperors , kings , judges , magistrates , ministers have yet a lawful power to make others such by their bare election , & to give them such authority and power as themselves never actually were or can be possessors of , then why by the self-same reason may they not likewise delegate a lawfull ecclesiasticall legislative authority in church-affairs , to their elected parliamentary and synodall members , which was never actually in themselves , as well as mr * goodwin delegate the power of determining who should be fit persons to receive the sacrament , and to become members of his independent congregation , to eight select substitutes , which was never actually vested in himselfe , nor transferrible thus to others by any law of god or man ? why may not a man bring an ecclesiastical or spiritual extraction out of a secular root , ( contrary to your paradox ) as * well as a r●…gall , magisteriall , parliamentall , ministeriall extraction , out of a meere popular or servile root ? or the best strong waters out of the vilest lees ; the richest minerals out of the coursest earth ? the most orient pearles out of the basest oisters ? in one word , the very choice these your vilest and most unworthy of men have made this parliament , may for ever refute this childish reason , the corner-stone of your independent fabricke , fastned together with independent crochets , unable to abide the test . therefore notwithstanding this your reason , our present parliament may and ought in point of right & duty , to make binding laws for regulating church-government , restraining heresies , schismes , innovations , erronious doctrines , unlawfull conventicles , and for setling the purity of gods worship and religion , notwithstanding this objection ; and with as much reason , justice , raise , and establish a new church-government , suitable to gods word and the civill state , as reforme or repeale the old , ( which grew to burdensome and offensive ) till independents can shew us better grounds against it then any yet produced : and informe us , why our whole representative church and state should not o●…right enjoy and exercise as great o●… greater ecclesiasticall jurisdiction , over all particular persons and churches who are members of our church and realme , as any independent minister or congregation challenge or usurp unto themselves , over their owne members ( this being the true state of the question , and not whether one particular church , or parish , hath superiority or iurisdiction over another ? as some mist●… it ) without , yea against both law & gospel for ought they yet have made appeare ? i shall say no more in so clear a case , but refer the author to the high court of parliament , ( whose undoubled priviledges he hath presumptuously undermined by the very roots ) to crave their pardon , or undergo their justice for this and other his anti-parliamentary passages , diametrally contrary to his , o●… , their late nationall vow and covenant , which they cannot without highest perjury permit any wilfully thus to violate in the most publike manner . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a56167e-360 eccles. 4. 4. b gal. 4. 16. c page 1. 2. * luk. 2. 46 , 47. mat. 11. 1 to 20. c. 12. 3 : to 13. 26 , 27 , 29. c. 21. 23 , to 43. c. 22. 18 , to 23. c. 16. 26. d the apologeticall narration , mr. sympson . a reply of two of the brethren , with others . e a reply of two of the brethren to 〈◊〉 , s. p. 111. f master iohn goodwins {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . * it seemes to me a kinde of contradiction , to assert one unalterable set-forme of church-government , and yet to condemne all set formes of common prayer or preaching : prayer and preaching being more essentiall to a church , then meere government or discipline . * he should say freer , where the government is left arbitrary . * exod. 25. 40 heb , 8 5. † i hope you wil●… not argue , carpenters , masons , goldsmiths , and other artificers , not priests or ministers , under the law built the tabernacle and material temple , ergo , the●… onely , not ●…nisters , ought now und●…r the gospell to build the church and spirituall temple : this would be but had logick , and worse divinity . * 2 chron. c. 8. to 2. * exod 24. 7. deut. 31. 11. ●…osh . 8. 34. 2 kings 23. 2. 2 chro. 34. 30 neh. 8 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 , &c c. 〈◊〉 . 3. c. 13. 1. 〈◊〉 . 36. 6. to 24 luke 4. 16. act. 13. 15 , 27 c. 15. 21 , 31. col. 4. 16 1 thes : 5. 27. † ezra 3. 10. 12. hag. 2. 3. to 10. * 1 cor. 14. 40 † belike the reed by which he measured . it was independency . * ezech. 40. & 41. * rev. 21. 22. 1 cor. 9. 13 , 14. heb. 7. 13. † 2 chron. 1. 10 , 11 , 12 * 1 kin. 3 5. to 15 exod. 35 : 30 to 35. c. 36. 1 , to 5. c. 31. 3 , to 7. deut. 1. 17 c. 2. 21 , 22 , 23. but very unreasonable that christ , the church , state , synod , parliament , should be subject to your dictates , not you to theirs . † 1 tim. 6. 15 rev. 17. 14 c. 19. 16. * this rule holds firm in all church-assemblies , synods , parliaments , elections by suffrages whatsoever . see 3. h. 8. c. 27. * 2 chro. 9 8 2 sam. 23. 3 deut. 1. 17 2 sam. 5. 2 rom. 13. 1 , 2 , 4 , 6. † your party are most guilty of it , who without discovery or proof of your newway , will have us blindly to submit unto it as the onely way of christ . 2. * 1 cor. 13. 5 , 7. * 37 h. s. c. 17 1 e. 6. c. 1. 1 eliz c. 1. see my breviate against bishops encroachments , &c. the vnbishoping of timothy and titus . the catalogue of authors in all ages concerning the parity and identity of bishops and presbyters . the antipathy of the english lordly prelacy . the q●…nchcoale , &c. * phil. 4 8. 1 thes. 5. 2●… , 22 nota. * lev. 19. 17 gal. 4. 16. c. 2. 11. 14. tit. 1. 13 , 14. rev. 3. 13. will justifie me herein . * pro. 23. 23. maximè amic● veritas . * if therefore the light that is in you be darkenesse , how great is that darkeness mat. 6. 23. * rom. 13. 5. 1 pet. 2. 14. * iustinian codicis . l. 1. ti . 8. socrates scholast. . eccl. hist. l 7. c. 5. l. 5 c. 4 , 5 , 15 , 20 , 21 23. l. 4. c. 12 , 13. l. 2. c. 33. * sec 35. eliz c. 1. † see 35. eliz. c. 1. none are conventicler but hereticks or schismatickes , who wholy seperate themselves from our publique assemblies established by law . justin codicis l. 1. tit. 8. * 2 chro. 15. 8 , to 16. c. 34. 29 , to 33. 8. 29 ●…10 . ezra 10. 3. neh. 9. 38. c. 10. 1. &c. * psal. 2. 8 , 9. psal. 72. 8 , to 18. ps. 82. 8. ps 86. 9 ps. 65 2. ps. 67. 〈◊〉 , 3. 4 5. ●…a 2 , 3. 〈◊〉 . 9. ●…2 , 23. c. 11. 9 , to 16. c. 54. 1 , 2 , 3. c. 60. 3. to 22. mich. 4. 1. to 5 mal. 1 11. zach. 8. 22. act. 13. 46 , 47 48. matth. 28. 19 , 20. mar. 14. 15. rom. 10. 18 , 20 c. 11. 4. isa. 62. to the end . 1 pet. 2. 9. 18. * matth. 3. 12 c. 13. 24. to 52 c. 25. 32 33. a joh. 6. 70 , 71 b see iudges , samuel , kings chronicles , nehemiah , ezra , and all the prophets . c see pauls . and johns , yea christs epistles to them , rev. 2 , & 3. i. cor. 11. 13 〈◊〉 34. c. 12 , 〈◊〉 27. d mat. 24. 14. 15. c. 26. 16. luk. 14. 23 , &c. c. 13. 23 , 24. * rom. 7. 15. to 25. jam. 3. 2. act. 14. 15 * 1 cor : 19 to 24 † 1 chro. 13. 1 , to 14. c. 28 , & 29. 2 chro. 5. 2 , &c. c. 6 , & 7. c. 15. 9 , to 29 c. 17. 7 , 8 , &c. c. 20. 3 , 4. 5. c. 24. 4 , to 16. c. 29. 3 , to 36. c. 30. v. 31. c. 34. 29 , to the end . c. 35. 1 , 〈◊〉 19. ezra & neh. throughout . 〈◊〉 . 9. 17. to 32. * da. 7 9. 13. * ephes. 4. 11. 12. 13. 2 cor 13. 9. heb. 6. 1. pet 5. 10. phil. 3. 12 15 heb. 13. 21. james 1. 4. * 1 cor. 13 , 11 , 12. c. 14. 20. c. 3. 1. 1 pet. 2. 2. heb. 5. 12 , 13 , 14. 1 ioh. 2. 11. to 15. ephes. 4. 15. 16 † 1 tim. 3 6. † ezek. 16. 13. * rom. 13. 1 , to 7. 1 tim 2 1 , 2 , 3. tit 3. 1 1 pet. 1. 2. to 24 c. 3. 1. 1 cor. 7. 1 , to 18. eph. 5. 22 23. c. 6. 1. to 10. col. 3. 18 , to 25. † see my catalogue , &c. the unbishoping of timothy and titus . a breviate and antipathy of the english lordly prelacy . † see my humble remonstrance against ship-money . * in his sermon on feb. 25 * deut. 12. 8. judges 〈◊〉 . 6. r. 21. 25. † yea , never more dangerous errours ref●…ted , suppressed , then in the 4. first general councels , and some synods since , as that of dort , and other protestant synods see the harmony of confession●…s : where therefore they determine rightly , you must submit unto them ; where they confirm apparent dangerous errours , there you may vary from them when proved such . * these are the true grounds of all s●…rations . esa 65. 5. luk. 18. 10 , to 16. lude 18. 19. witnesses the novatians , dunatists , of old : the severall orders of monks , nuns , erem●…s , anchorites , in the church of rome , and their new order of jesuits , each of them pre●…nding more sanctity and strictnesse then another , and so severing in their different orders , habits , mon●… , rules , covenants , one from another . † mr goodwins theomachia p 24 , 25. the reply of two of the brethren pas●… . notes for div a56167e-5420 * epistle to the reader , & p g. 11. 33. 44. to 52. b page 18. 22. 52. and else . gamaliell himselfe no apostle , nor christian , from whose words you yet take your text is gospell , was not altogether of this opinion . 1. * sec epiphanius , basil , augustine , and all the bookes of or against any hereticks and sectaries . * matth. 4 6. * mat. 24. 11. 23. to 27. c. 7. 15. 2 cor. 11 13 , 14 , 15. ephes. 4. 14. 2 thes. 2. 9. 10 rev. 13. 2. to ●…8 . 2 ioh. 10. 〈◊〉 . f gal. 2. 4. to 18 * rom. 19. 15 16 , 26. h see iustinian cod. l. 〈◊〉 . tit. 8. 1. eliz. c. 2. 35. eliz. c. 1. 2. 2 i page 21. k see the london ministers petition against it . 1 l see 1 cor. 11. 16. c 10. 32. 33. m see p. 30. to 52. 2 ( n ) p. 3 , 4. 11. 12. p ezra i. 1. to the end . c. 4 17. to 24. c. 6. 2. to 17. c. 7. 12. to 28. neh 2. 1. to 27. 2 chron. 36. 22 , 23. isay 44. 28. dan. 3. 29. c. 6. 25 , 26 , 27. ionah 3. 5 , 6 , 7. r acts 24 , & 5. & 26 , & 27 , 28. 2 tim. 4. 10. 17. s 1 tim. 2. 1 , 2. 3. rom. 13. 1. to 7. tit 3. 1 t matt. 10. 17 , 18. 21. c. 26 , 27. amos 13. 9. c. 15. acts 4. 1. to 24. c. 5. 17. to 4. c. 6. 12 , 13. c. 9. 1 , 2. 3. c. 11. 2 , 3 , 4. c. 16. 10. to 40. c. 18. 12. ( q ) tim. 2. 1 , ier. 29. 7. v page 38. 10 40. x pag. 30. 31 y amos 3. 3. * esa. 9. 6. see my twelve questions p. 7 , 8. * pag. 48 , 49 , 50. this he more fully expressed in a sermon in february last . note . gamaliell & your text never taught you any such anti-parliamentary doctrine . note . * the people having power to elect princes , magistrates , ministers , parliaments , synods have likewise authority ●…o nominate such who by the rule of gods word may limit these particulars , though not by their owne bare authority , without or against the word . † every magistrate , parliament , and synod , have power to declare and en jo●…n what is necessary to be beleeved , practised , by or according to gods word , not without or contrary to it . a see my appendix to the soveraigne power of parliaments and kingdomes p. 122. to 131. † twelve considerable queries p. 4 , 5. independency examined p. 2 , 11 , 12. b page 25 , 26. c num. 22. 35 c. 23 , & 24. 1 sam. 10. act. 5. 34. to 40. joh. 11. 49 , to 53. d ioh. 6. 70 , 71 mar. 6. 7. to 14. e matth. 5. 1. c. 13. 1 , 2. c. 8. 18. c. 9. 36. c. 14 14 ; 19 : c. 11. 32 , 33. c. 21 8 , 9 , 10. luk. 6. 17 , 19. c. 8. 44 , 45. joh. 6. 2 , 5. mar. 12. 12 , 37. luk. 13 17. c. 18. 43. c. 21. 38. c. 22. 1. joh. 7 40. 43. &c. c. 8. 2. act. 2. 47. * this he confessed , and it appeared by a writing before the committee of plundered ministers . * or as well ashimselfe extracts many spirituall doctrines out of gamaliels secular speech in these very sermons . * therefore your principall argument ; that the seven particular churches in asia had no iurisdiction one over another , ( being under different civil dominions , and not members of the selfe-same christian republike , ) ●…rgo the whol parliament and church of england have no iurisdiction over particular parish churches or independent congregations in england ; is a meere independency . the duty of pastors and people distingushed [sic]. or a briefe discourse, touching the administration of things commanded in religion. especially concerning the means to be used by the people of god (distinct from church-officers) for the increasing of divine knowledge in themselves and others. wherein bounds are prescribed to their peformances, their liberty is enlarged to the utmost extent of the dictates of nature and rules of charity: their duty laid downe in directions, drawn from scripture-precepts, and the practise of gods people in all ages. together with the severall wayes of extraordinary calling to the office of publike teaching, with what assurance such teachers may have of their calling, and what evidence they can give of it, unto others. / by john ovven, m.a. of q. col. o. owen, john, 1616-1683. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a90265 of text r2375 in the english short title catalog (thomason e49_6). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 169 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 30 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a90265 wing o741 thomason e49_6 estc r2375 99872039 99872039 155115 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a90265) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 155115) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 9:e49[6]) the duty of pastors and people distingushed [sic]. or a briefe discourse, touching the administration of things commanded in religion. especially concerning the means to be used by the people of god (distinct from church-officers) for the increasing of divine knowledge in themselves and others. wherein bounds are prescribed to their peformances, their liberty is enlarged to the utmost extent of the dictates of nature and rules of charity: their duty laid downe in directions, drawn from scripture-precepts, and the practise of gods people in all ages. together with the severall wayes of extraordinary calling to the office of publike teaching, with what assurance such teachers may have of their calling, and what evidence they can give of it, unto others. / by john ovven, m.a. of q. col. o. owen, john, 1616-1683. [4] 54, [2] p. printed by l. n. for philemon stephens, at the gilded lion in pauls church-yard, london : 1644. reproduction of the original in the british library. annotation on thomason copy: "may. 21". eng clergy -office -early works to 1800. church polity -early works to 1800. a90265 r2375 (thomason e49_6). civilwar no the duty of pastors and people distingushed [sic]. or a briefe discourse, touching the administration of things commanded in religion.: esp owen, john 1644 26578 15 105 0 0 0 0 45 d the rate of 45 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the d category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-06 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-06 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-09 elspeth healey sampled and proofread 2007-09 elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the duty of pastors and people distingushed . or a briefe discovrse , touching the administration of things commanded in religion . especially concerning the means to be used by the people of god ( distinct from church-officers ) for the increasing of divine knowledge in themselves and others . wherein bounds are prescribed to their performances , their liberty is enlarged to the utmost extent of the dictates of nature and rules of charity : their duty laid downe in directions , drawn from scripture-precepts , and the practise of gods people in all ages . together with the severall wayes of extraordinary calling to the office of publike teaching , with what assurance such teachers may have of their calling , and what evidence they can give of it , unto others . by john ovven , m. a. of q. col. o. london , printed by l. n. for philemon stephens , at the gilded lion in pauls church-yard . 1644. to the trvly noble , and my ever honoured friend , sir edward scot , of scots-hall in kent , knight of the honourable order of the bath . sir : having of late been deprived of the happinesse to see you , i make bold to send to visite you ; and because that the times are troublesome , i have made choise of this messenger : who having obtained a license to passe , feares no searching : he brings no newes ( at least ) to you , but that which was from the beginning , and must continue unto the end , which you have heard , and which ( for some part thereof ) you have practised out of the word of god . he hath no secret messages prejudiciall to the state of church or common-wealth ; neither i hope , will he entertain any such comments by the way ▪ considering from whom he comes , and to whom he goes ; of whom , the one would disclaime him , and the other punish him . ambitious i am not of any entertainment for these few sheetes , neither care much what successe they find in their travel ; setting them out meerly in my own defence , to be freed from the continued solicitations of some honest judicious men , who were acquainted with their contents : being nothing , but an houres country-discourse , resolved , from the ordinary pulpit method , into its own principles : when i first thought of sending it to you , i made ful account to use the benefit of the advantage , in recounting of , and returning thanks for some of those many undeserved favours which i have received from you . but addressing my self to the performance , i fainted in the very entrance ; finding their score so large , that i know not where to begin , neither should i know how to end : only one i cannot suffer to lye hid in the croud , though other engagements hindred me from embracing it , viz. your free proffer of an ecclesiastical preferment , then vacant , and in your donation . yet truly all received courtesies , have no power to oblige me unto you , in comparison of that abundant worth , which by experience i have found to be dwelling in you . twise by gods providence , have i been with you , when your county hath been in great danger to be ruined , once by the horrid insurrection of a rude godlesse multitude ; and againe , by the invasion of a potent enemy , prevailing in the neighbor county ; at both which times , besides the generall calamity justly feared , particular threatnings were daily brought unto you : under which sad dispensations , i must crave leave to say ( only to put you in mind of your selfe , if it should please god againe to reduce you to the like straights ) that i never saw more resolved constancy , more cheerfull unmoved christian courage in any man . such a valiant heart in a weak body , such a directing head , where the hand was but feeble , such unwearied endevours , under the pressures of a painful infirmity , so well advised resolves in the midst of imminent danger , did i then behold , as i know not where to parallel . neither can i say lesse in her kind of your vertuous lady , whose known goodnesse to al , and particular indulgences to me , make her ( as she is in her self ) very precious in my thoughts and remembrance : whom having named , i desire to take the advantage thankfully to mention her worthy son , my noble and very deare friend c. westrow , whose judgement to discerne the differences of these times , and his valour in prosecuting what he is resolved to be just and lawfull , places him among the number of those very few , to whom it is given to know aright the causes of things , and vigorously to execute holy and laudible designes . but further of him i choose to say nothing , because if i would , i cannot but say too little . neither will longer detain you from the ensuing discourse , which i desire to commend to your favourable acceptance , and with my hearty prayers , that the lord would meet you and yours in all those wayes of mercy and grace , which are necessary to carry you along through all your engagements , untill you arrive at the haven of everlasting glory , where you would be : i rest your most obliged servaent in iesus christ our common master : john ovven . the preface to the ensuing discourse . the glasse of our lives , seemes to runne and keep pace with the extremity of time : the end of those ends of the world a which began with the gospell , is doubtlesse comming upon us , hee that was instructed what should bee , till time should be no more , said , it was {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} the last houre in his time : much sand cannot be behind , and christ shakes the glasse : many minutes of that houre cannot remaine ; the next measure we are to evpect , is but a moment , the twinkling of an eye , wherein we shall all be changed ; now as if the horoscope of the decaying age , had some secret influence into the wils of men , to comply with the decrepit world , they generally delight to run into extreames : not that i would have the fate of the times to beare the faults of men , like him who cried , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} to free himself , intitling god and fate to his sins ; but only to shew how the all-disposing providence of the most hign , works such a complyance of times and persons , as may joyntly drive at his glorious aymes , causing men to set out in such seasons as are fittest for their travell . this epidemicall disease of the aged world , is the cause , why in that great diversity of contrary opinions , wherewith mens heads and hearts are now replenished : the truth pretended to be sought with so much earnestnesse , may be often gathered up , quite neglected , between the parties litigant ; medio tulissimus , is a sure rule , but that fiery spirits , pyrout eocus & aethon quartusque phlegon , will be mounting . in the matter concerning which , i propose my weake essay , some would have all christians to be almost ministers , others none but ministers , to be gods clergie : those would give the people the keys , these use them , to lock them out of the church , the one ascribing to them primarily al ecclesiasticall power for the ruling of the congregation ; the other abridging them of the performance of spirituall duties , for the building of their own soules : as though there were no habitable earth betweene the valley ( i had almost said the pit ) of democraticall confusion , and the precipitious rock of hierarchicall tyranny : when unskilfull archers shoot , the safest place to avoid the arrow , is the white : going , as neare as god shall direct me , to the truth of this matter , i hope to avoid the strokes of the combatants on every side . and therefore wil not handle it {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} with opposition to any man , or opinion , but {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} briefly proposing mine owne required judgement : the summary result whereof , is , that the sacred calling may retaine its ancint dignity , though the people of god be not deprived of their christian liberty ; to cleare which proposall , somethings i shall briefly premise , chap. i. of the administration of holy things among the patriarks before the law . 1. concerning the ancient patriachs ; from these , some who would have judaisme , to be but an intercision of christiauity derive the pedigree of christians , affirming the diference between us & them , to be solely in the name & not the thing it self : of this thus much at least is true , that the law of commandements , contained in ordinances did much more diversifie the administration of the covenant , before , and after christ , then those plaine moralities , wherewith in their dayes it was cloathed : where the assertion is dificient , antiquity hath given its authors sanctuary from farther pursuit . their practice then , were it cleer , can be no president for christians ; all light brought to the gospel , in comparison of those full and glorious beames , that shine in it selfe , is but a candle set up in the sunne : yet for their sakes , who found out the former unity , i will , ( not following the conceit of any , nor the comments of many ) give you such a bare naration , as the scripture will supply me withall , of their administration of the holy things and practise of their religion : ( as it seemes christianity , though not so called ) and doubt you not of divine approbation , and institution : for all prelacy , at least , untill nimrod hunted for preferment , was dejure divino : i finde then , that before the giving of the law , the chief men among the servants of the true god , did every one in their owne families with their neighbors adjoyning , of the same perswasion , performe those things which they knew to be required , by the law of nature , tradition , or speciall revelation ( the unwritten word of those times ) in the service of god , instructing their childeren and servants in the knowledge of their creed concerning the nature and goodnesse of god , the fall and sin of man , the use of sacrifices , and the promised seede , ( the summe of their religion ) and moreover performing {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} things appertaining unto god . this we have delivered concerning seth , enoch , noah , abraham , lot , isaack , iacob , iethro , iob , others : now whither they did this , as any way peculiarly designed unto it as an office , or rather in obedient duty to the prime law of nature , in which , and to whose performance , many of them were instructed , and incouraged , by divine revelation , ( as seemes most probable ) is not necessary to be insisted on : to me truely it seemes evident , that thert were no determiuate ministers of divine worship before the law , for , where finde we any such office instituted , where the duties of those officers prescribed ? or were they of human invention ? god would never allow , that in any regard , the wil of the creature should be the measure of his honour & worship ; but the right and exercise of the priesthood , say some was in the first borne ; but a proofe of this will be for ever wanting . abel was not adams eldest sonne , yet if any thing were peculiar to such an office , it was by him performed , that both the brothers carried their sacrifices to their father , is a vaine surmize : who was priest then , when adam dyed ? neither can any order of descent be handsomely contrived : noah had three sonnes , grant the eldest onely a priest ; were the eldest sonnes of his other sons priests or no ? if not , how many men , feareing god , were scattered over the face of the earth , utterly deprived of the means of right worship ; if so , there must be a new rule produced , beyond the prescript of nature , whereby a man may be enabled by generation to convey that to others , which he hath not in himselfe : i speake not of melchisedeck , and his extraordinary priesthood ; why should any speak where the holy ghost is silent ? if we pretend to know him , we overthrow the whole mystery , and run crosse to the apostle , afirming him to be {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} without father , mother , or genealogie ; for so long time then , as the greatest combination of men , was in distinct families ( which sometimes were very great ) politickes and oeconomicks being of the same extent , all the way of instruction in the service and knowledge of god , was by the way of paternall admonition : for the discharge of which duty , abraham is commended gen. 18. 19. whereunto the instructers had no particular ingagement , but only the generall obligation of the law of nature ; what rule they had , for their performances towards god , doth not appeare ; all positive law , in every kinde is ordained for the good of community : that then being not , no such rule was assigned , untill god gathered a people , and lifted up the standard of circumcision for his subjects to repaire unto : the world in the dayes of abraham , beginning generally to incline to idolatry and polutheisme , the first evident inreconcileable division was made betweene his people and the malignants , which before lay hid in his decree , visible signes and prescript rules , were necessary for such a gathered church : this before i conceive to have been supplyed by speciall revelation . the law of nature a long time prevailed for the worship of the one true god . the manner of this worship , the generalty had at first ( as may be conceived ) from the vocall instruction of adam , ful of the knowledge of divine things ; this afterwards their children had from them by tradition ; helped forward by such who received particular revelations in their generation ; such as noah , thence called a preacher of righteousnesse : so knowledge of gods will increased , untill sinne quite prevailed , and all flesh corrupted their wayes ; all apostacy for the most part beginnes in the will , which is more bruised by the fall , then the understanding . nature is more corrupted , in respect of the desire of good , then the knowledge of truth ; the knowledge of god would have flourished longer in mens mindes , had not sinne banished the love of god out of their hearts . the summe is , that before the giving of the law , every one in his owne person , served god according to that knowledge he had of his will . publike performances were assigned to none , further then the obligation of the law of nature , to their duty in their owne familyes . i have purposely omitted to speake of melchisedocke as i said before , having spoken all that i can , or dare concerning him , on another occasion , onely this i will adde , they who so confidently affirme him to be shem , the sonne of noah , and to have his priesthood in an ordinary way , by vertue of his primogeniture , might have done well to aske leave of the holy ghost , for the revealing of that which he purposely concealed , to setforth no small mystery , by them quite overthrowne . and he who of late makes him looke upon abraham and the four kings , all of his posterity , fighting for the inheritance of canaan ; ( of which cause of their quarrell the scripture is silent ) robs him at least of one of his titles , a king of peace ; making him neither , king nor peaceable , but a bloody grandsire , that either could not , or would not part his fighting children , contending for that whose right was in him , to bestow on whom he would . and thus was it with them in the administration of sacred things : there was no divine determination of the priestly office on any order of men : when things appertaining unto god , were to be performed in the name of a whole family ( as afterwards 1 sam. 20. 6. ) perhaps the honour of the performance was by consent given to the first borne : further , the way of teaching others , was by petarnall admonition : ( so gen. 18. 19 ) motives thereunto , and rules of their proceeding therein , being the law of nature , and speciall revelation . prescription of positive law , ordained for the good of community , could have no place , , when all society was domesticall . to instruct others ( upon occasion ) wanting instruction for their good , is an undeniable dictate of the first principles of nature ; obedience to which , was all the ordinary warrant they had , for preaching to any beyond their owne families , observed by lot gen. 19. 7. though his sermon contained a little false doctrine , ver. 81. againe , speciall revelation leaves as a great impression on the minde of him to whom it is made , so an effectuall obligation for the performance of what it directeth unto , the lyon hath roared , who will not fear ; the lord god hath spoken who can but prophes●e , amos 3. 8. and this was noahs warrant for those performances , from whence he was called a preacher of righteousnes , 2 pet. 2. 5. thus although i doe not finde any determinate order of priesthood by divine institution , yet do i not thence conclude with aquin. 12. ae quest . 3. a 1 ( if i noted right at the reading of it ) that all the worship of god , i meane for the manner of it was of humane invention , yea sacrifices themselves : for this will worship as i shewed before god alwayes rejected , no doubt but sacrifices and the manner of them were of divine institution , albeit their particular originall , in regard of precept though not of practice be to us unknowne ; for what in all this concernes us , we may observe that a superinstitution of a new ordinance , doth not overthrow any thing that went before in the same kinde , universally morrall , or extraordinary ; nor at all change it , unlesse by expresse exception , as by the introduction of the ceremoniall law , the offering of sacrafices , which before was common to all , was restrained to the posterity of levi : looke then what performances in the service of god , that primitive houshold of faith was in the generall directed unto , by the law of nature , the same regulated by gospel light ( not particularly excepted ) ought the generallity of christians to performe , which what they were may be collected from what was fore spoken . chap. ii. of the same among the jewes , and of the duty of that people distinct from their church officers . 2. concerning the jews after the giving of moses law , the people of god were then gathered in one , and a standard was set up for all his to repaire unto , and the church of god became like a city upon a hill , conspicuous to all ; and a certaine rule set downe for every one to observe that would approach unto him : as then before the law we sought for the manner of gods worship from the practise of men , so now since the change of the externall administration of the covenant , from the prescription of god ; then we ghessed at what was commanded , by what was done ; now at what was done , by what was commanded ; and this is all the certainety we can have in either kinde , though the consequence from the precept , to the performance ; and on the contrary , in this corrupted state of nature , be not of absolute necessity ; onely the difference is , where things are obscured , it is a safer way to prove the practise of men by gods precept , charitably supposing them to have been obedient , then to wrest the divine rule to their observation ; knowing how prone men are to deifie themselves , by mixing their inventions with the worship of god : the administration of gods providence towards his church hath been various and the communication of himselfe unto it , at sundry times , hath been in divers manners ; especially , it pleased him not to bring it to perfection but by degrees , as the earth bringeth forth fruit , first the blade , then the eare , then the full corne in the eare : thus the church before the giving of moses law , seems to have had two maine defects , which the lord at that time supplyed ; one in discipline , or government , in that every family exercised the publique worship of god within it self or a part . ( though some do otherwise conclude from gen. 4. 26. ) which was first removed , by establishing a consistory of elders , the other , in the doctrine wanting the rule of the written word being directed by tradition , the manifold defects whereof , were made up , by speciall revelatition : to neither of these defects was the church since exposed : whether there was any thing written before the giving of the law , is not worth contending about : austine thought enochs prophesie was written by him ; prophesie was written by him ; and josephus afirmes , that there were two pillars erected , one of stone , the other of brick before the stoode , wherein divers things were ingraven ; and sixtus senensis , that the booke of the wars of the lord was a volume ancienter then the bookes of moses ; but the contrary opinion is most received , so chrysost. hom. 1. in mali . after its giving , none ever doubted of the perfection of the written word for the end to which it was ordained , untill the jewes had broached their talmud , to oppose christ , and the papists their traditions , to advance antichrist ; doubtlesse the sole aime of the work , what ever , were the intentions of the workmen . the lights which god maketh , are sufficient to rule the seasons for which they are ordained ; as , in creating of the world , god made two great lights , the greater light to rule the day , and the lesser light to rule the night ; so in the erection of the new world of his church , he set up two great lights , the lesser light of the old testament , to guide the night , the darke space of time under the law , and the greater light of the new testament , to rule the glorious day of the gospel , and these two lights do sufficiently enlighten every man that commeth into this new world : there is no neede of the false fire of tradition , where god sets up such glorious lights . this be premised , for the pronass of men , to deflect from the golden rule , and heavenly polestarre in the investigation of the truth ; especially in things of this nature , concerning which we treat , wherein ordinary indeavours , are farre greater in searching after what men have done , then what they ought to have done ; and when the fact is once evidenced , from the pen of a rabbi , or a father , presently conclude the right : amongst many , we may take a late treatise for instance , intituled , of religious assemblies and the publike service of god , whose author would prescribe the manner of gods worship among christians , from the custome of the jewes ; and their observations , he would prove from the rabbines ; not at all taking notice , that from such observances , they were long agon recalled , to the law and to the testamony . and afterwards for them sharply rebuked by truth it selfe : doubtlesse it is a worthy knowledge to be able , and a commendable deligence to search into those coyners of curiosities , but to imbrace the fancy 's of those wild-heads which have nothing but noveltie to commend them , and to seeke their imposition on others , is but an abasing of their owne ceisure and others industry : the issue of such a temper , seemes to bee the greatest part of that treatise , which because i wait onely for some spare houres to demonstrate in a perticular tract . i shall for the present , omit the handling of divers things there spoken of , though otherwise they might very opportunately here be mentioned . as the office and duty of prophets , the manner of gods worship in their synagogues , the originall and institution of their latter teachers , scribes and pharises , & . and briefly onely observe those things , which are most immediatly conducing to my proposed subject . the worship of god among them , was either morall , or ceremoniall and typicall , the performances belonging unto the latter , with all things thereunto conducing , were appropriated to them , whom god had peculiarly set a part for that purpose : by ceromoniall worship , i understand all sacrifices and offerings , the whole service of the tabernacle , and afterwards of the temple : all which , were typicall , and established merely for the present dispensation , not without purpose of their abrogation , when that which was to be more perfect , should appear . now the severall officers with their distinct employments , in and about this service , were so punctually prescribed , and limited by almighty god , that as none of them might {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} without presumptious impiety , intrude into the function of others , not allotted to them , as numb. 16. 7 , 8 , 9 , 10. so none of their bretheren might presume to intrude into the least part of their office , without manifest sacriledge . josh. 22. 11 , 12. true it is , that there is mention of divers in the scripture that offered sacrifices , or vowed so to do , who were strangers from the priests office , yea from the tribe of levi , as jepha . judges , 11. manoah , jud. 13. david , 2. sam. 6. and again , 2. sam. 24. solomon , kings 3. and again , 1. kings 9. but following our former rule of interpreting , the practise , by the precept , we may finde , ( and that truely ) that all the expresions of their offerings signifie no more ; but , they brought those things to be offered , and caused the priests to do , what in their owne persons they ought not to performe . now hence by the way we may observe , that the people of god , under the new testament , contrary distinct from their teachers , have a greater interest in the performance of spirituall duties belonging to the worship of god , and more in that regard is granted unto them , and required of them , then was of the ancient people of the jewes , considered as distinguished from their priests , because their duty is prescribed unto them under the notion of those things which then , were appropriate onely to the priests ; as of offering incense , sacrifice ; oblations , and the like , which in their originall institution were never permitted to the people of the jewes , but yet tralatitiously and by analogie are injoyned to all christians , but of these afterwards ; the main question is , about the duty of the people of god , in performances for their owne edification , and the extent of their lawfull undertakings for others instruction ; for the first , which is of nearest concernment unto themselves : the summe of their duty in this kind may bee reduced to these two heads ; first , to heare the word and law of god read attentively , especially when it was expounded . secondly , to meditate therein themselves , to study it day and night , and to get their senses exercised in that rule of their duty . concerning each of which , we have both the precept , and the practise , gods command , and their performance . the one , in that injunction given unto the priest , daut . 31. 11 , 12 , 13. when all israel is come to appeare before the lord thy god , in the place that hee shall choose , thou shalt reade this law before all israel in their hearing : gather the people together , men , and women , and children , and thy stranger that is within thy gates , that they may heare , and that they may learne , and feare the lord your god ; and that their children which have not knowne may heare and learne . all which we find punctually performed on both sides , nehem. 8. 2 , 3 , 4 , 5. ezra the priest standing on a pulpit of wood , read the law , and gave the meaning of it , and the eares of all the people were attentive to the booke of the law . which course continued untill there was an end put to the observances of that law ; as act. 15. 21. moses of old time hath in every citie them that preach him being read in the synagogues every sabbath day : on which ground , not receding from their ancient observations , the people assembled to heare our saviour teaching with authority , luk. 21. 38. and s. paul divers times tooke advantage of their ordinary assemblies to preach the gospel unto them . for the other , which concernes their own searching into the law , and studying of the word wee have a strict command , deut. 6. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9. and these words which i command thee this day shall bee in thy heart , and thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children , and shalt talke of them when thou sittest in thy house , and when thou walkest by the way , and when thou lyest down , and when thou risest up , and thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thy hand , & they shal be as front lets between thine eyes , & thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house & upon thy gates : which strict charge is again repeated , cap. 11. 18. summarily comprehending all wayes whereby they might become exercised in the law : now because this charge is in particular given to the king , chap. 17. vers. 18 , 19. the performance of a king in obedience thereunto , will give us light enough into the practise of the people : and this we have in that most excellent psalme of david , viz. 119. which for the most part , is spent in petitions for light , direction , and assistance in that study , in expressions of the performance of this duty , and in spirituall glorying of his successe , in his divine meditations : especially vers . 99. hee ascribeth his proficiency in heavenly wisedome and understanding above his teachers , not to any speciall revelation , not to that propheticall light wherewith he was endued ( which indeed consisting in a transient irradiation of the mind , being a supernaturall impulsion commensurate to such things as are connaturall onely unto god , doth of it selfe give neither wisedome nor understanding ) but unto his studdy in the testimonies of god . the blessings pronounced upon , and promises annexed to the performance of this duty , concerne not the matter in hand : only from the words wherein the former command is delivered , two things may be observed , 1. that the paternall teaching and instruction of families in things which appertaine to god , being a duty of the law of nature , remained in its full vigor , and was not at all impaired , by the institution of a new order of teachers for assemblies , beyond domesticall then established : neither without doubt ought it to cease amongst christians , there being no other reason why now it should , but that , which then was not effectuall . secondly , that the people of god , were not onely permitted , but enjoyned also , to reads the scriptures , and upon all occasions , in their owne houses , and else-where , to talke of them , or communicate their knowledge in them , unto others : there had been then , no councell at trent to forbid the one , nor perhaps was there any strict canon , to bring the other within the compasse of a conventicle : but now for the solemne publique teaching and instructing of others , it was otherwise ordained , for this was committed to them in regard of ordinary performance , who were set apart by god ; as for others before named : so also for that purpose , the author of the treatise i before mentioned , concludeth that the people were not taught at the publike assemblies by priests , as such , that is , teaching the people was no part of their office or duty : but on the contrary , that seems to be a mans duty in the service or worship of god , which god requires of him , and that appertain to his office whose performance is expressely enjoyned unto him , as such , and for whose neglect , hee is rebuked or punished : now all this wee find concerning the priests publike teaching of the people : for the prof of which the recitall of a few pertinent places shal suffice , levit. 10. 11. we have an injunction laid upon aaron and his sonnes , to teach the children of israel all the statutes that the lord had spoken to them by the hand of moses . and of the levites it is affirmed , deut. 33. 10. they shall teach jacob thy statutes , and israel thy law . now though some restraine these places to the discerning of leprosies , and between holy and unholy , with their determination of difficulty emergent out of the law , yet this no way impaires the truth of that i intend to prove by them for even , those things , belonged to that kind of publike teaching , which was necessary under that administration of the covenant : but in stead of many , i will name one not lyable to exception : mil. 2. 7. the priests lips should preserve knowledge , and they should seeke the law at his mouth , for he is the messenger of the lord of hosts : where both a recitall of his own duty , that he should be full of knowledge to instruct , the intimation of the people , that they should seeke unto him , or give heed to his teaching with the reason of them both , for he is the lords messenger , ( one of the highest titles of the ministers of the gospell performing the same office ) doe abundantly confirme , that instructing of the people in the morall worship of god , was a duty of the priestly office , or of the priests as such . especially considering the effect of this teaching mentioned , vers. 9. the turning of many from their iniquitie . the proper end of teaching in assemblies : all which we find exactly perperformed by an excellent priest , preaching to the people on a pulpit of wood : nehem. 8. 5 , 6 , 7 , 8. further , for a neglect of this , the priests are threatned with rejection from their office : hosea 4. 6. now it doth not seeme justice , that a man should be put out of his office , for a neglect of that , whose performance doth not belong unto it ; the fault of every neglect , ariseth from the description of a duty : untill something then of more force , then any thing as yet i have seene , bee objected to the contrary , we may take it for granted , that the teaching of the people under the law , in publique assemblies , was performed ordinarily by the priests , as belonging to their duty , and office . men indued with gifts supernaturall , extraordinarily called , and immediately sent by god himselfe , for the instruction of his people , the reformation of his church , and fore-telling things to come , such as were the prophets , who when ever they met with opposition , staid themselves upon their extraordinary calling , come not within the compasse of my disquisition . the institution also of the schooles of the prophets , the employment of the sonnes of the prophets , the originall of the scribes , and those other possessours of moses chaire in our saviours time , wherein hee conversed here below , being necessarily to be handled in my observations on the fore-named treatise , i shall omit untill more leisure , and an enjoyment of the small remainder of my poore library , shall better enable me . for the present , because treating in causa facili , although writing without bookes , i hope i am not besides the truth : the booke of truth , praised bee god , is easie to bee obtained , and god is not tyed to meanes , in discovering the truth of that booke . come we then , to the consideration of what duty in the service of god , beyond those belonging unto severall families , were permitted to any of the people , not peculiarly set apart for such a purpose . the ceremoniall part of gods worship , as we saw before , was so appropriate to the priests , that god usually revenged the trangression of that ordinance , very severely , the examples of vzzah and vzziah , are dreadfull testimonies of his wrath in that kind : it was an unalterable law , by vertue whereof , the priests excommunicated that presumptuous king . for that whch we chiefly intend the publique teaching of others , as to some it was enjoyned , as an act of their duty , so it might at first seeme , that it was permitted to all , who having ability thereunto , were called by charity or necessitie ; so the princes of jehoshaphat taught the people out of the law of god , as well as the priests and levites , 2 chron. 17. 7 , 8 , 9 , 10. so also nehemiah , and others of the chiefe of the people are reckoned among them who taught the people , nehem. 8. and afterwards , when saint paul at any time entred into their synagogues ; they never questioned any thing but his abilities , if he had any word of exhortation to the people he might say on : and the scribes questioning the authoritie of our saviour for his teaching , were moved to it , not because he taught , but because he taught so , and such things , with authoritie , and against their traditions , otherwise they rather troubled themselves , to thinke how he should become able to teach : mark 6. 2 , 3. then him , because he did : there are indeed many sharpe reproofes in the old testament of those who undertooke to be gods messengers without his warrant , as jerem. 23. 21 , 22. i have not sent these prophets , yet they ran : i have not spoken to them , yet they prophesied . but if they had stood in my counsell , &c. to which , and the like places it may satisfactorily be answered , that howsoever by the way of analogie , they may be drawn into rule , for these times of the gospel , yet they were spoken only in reference to them who falsly pretended to extraordinary revelations , and a power of foretelling things to come : whom the lord forewarned his people of , and appointed punishments for them , deut. 13. with which sort of pretenders that nation was ever replenished , for which the very heathen often derided them : he , who makes it his employment , to counterfeit gods dispensations , had then no more glorious worke to imitate then that of prophesie , wherein he was not idle : yet notwithstanding all this , i doe not conceive the former discourse to be punctually true in the latitude thereof : as though it were permitted to all men , or any men , besides the priests and prophets to teach publikely at all times , and in all estates of that church . only i conceive that the usuall answers given to the fore-cited places , when objected , are not sufficient : take an instance in one , 2 chro. 17. of the princes of jehoshaphat teaching with the priests : the author of the book before intimated , conceives that neither priests nor princes taught at all in that way we now treat of , but only that the priests rode circuit to administer judgement , and had the princes with them to do execution ; but this interpretation he borroweth only to confirme his {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , that priests did not teach as such , the very circumstance of the place inforces a contrary sence ; and in the 19. chap. there is expresse mention of appointing judges for the determination of civill causes in every city , which evidently was a distinct work distinguished from that mentioned in this place : & upō the like ground i cōceive it to be no intimation of a moveable sanedrim , which although of such a mixt constitution , yet was not itinerant , and is mentioned in that other place : neither is that other ordinary glosse more probable , they were sent to teach , that is to countenance the teaching of the law ; a duty which seldome implores the assistance of humane countenance , and if for the present it did , the kings authority commanding it was of more value then the presence of the princes . besides , there is nothing in the text , nor the circumstances thereof , which should hold out this sence unto us ; neither do we find any other rule , precept or practise , whose analogie might lead us to such an interpretation : that , which to me seemes to come neerest the truth is that they taught also , not in a ministeriall way , like the priests and levites , but imperially , and judicially declaring the sense of the law , the offences against it , and the punishments due to such offences ; especially in as much as they had reference to the peace of the common-wealth : which differs not much from that which i rest upon , to wit , that in a collapsed and corrupted state of the church , when the ordinary teachers are either utterly ignorant and cannot , or negligent and will not performe their duty , gifts in any one to be a teacher , and consent in others by him to be taught , are a sufficient warrant for the performance of it : and then this , the places cited out of the old testament prove no more . for the proceedings of st paul in the synagogues , their great want of teaching ( being a people before forsaken of the spirit & then withering ) might be a warrant for them to desire it , and his apostolicall mission for him to do it ; it doth not then at all from hence appear , that there was then any liberty of teaching in publike assemblies granted unto , or assumed by any in such an estate of the church , as wherein it ought to be : when indeed it is ruinously declining every one of gods servants hath a sufficient warrant to helpe or prevent the fall : this latter being but a common duty of zeale and charitie , the former an authoritative act of the keyes , the minister whereof is onely an instrumentall agent , that from whence it hath its efficacy , residing in another , in whose stead , ( 2 cor. 5. 19 , 20. ) and under whose person it is done . now who ever doth any thing in anothers stead , not by expresse patent from him , is a plaine impostor ; and a grant of this nature made unto all in generall doth not appeare . i am bold to speake of these things under the notion of the keyes , though in the time of the law ; for i cannot assent to those schoole-men , who will not allow that the keyes in any sense , were granted to the legall priests ; their power of teaching , discerning , judging , receiving in , and casting out , import the thing , though the name ( no more then that of regnum coelorum , as hierom and augustine observe ) be not to bee found in the old testament . and doubtlesse god ratified the execution of his owne ordinances in heaven , then , as well as now : what the immediate effect of their services was , how far by their own force they reached , and what they typified , how in signification onely , and not immediatly they extended to an admission into , and exclusion from the heavenly tabernacle , and wherein lyes the secret power of gospell commissions beyond theirs to attaine the ultimate end , i have declared else-where . thus much of what the ancient people of god distinguished from their priests might not doe , now briefely of what they might , or rather of what they ought , and what their obedience and profession declared , that they thought themselves obliged unto : private exhortations , rebukings , and such dictates of the law of nature being presupposed ; we find them further , speaking often one to another , of those things which concerned the feare , and worship of the lord , malac. 3. 16. by their lips feeding many with wisedome , prov. 10. 21. discoursing of gods lawes upon all occasions , deut. 6. 6 , 7 , 8. by multitudes encouraging each other to the service of god , zach. 8. 20 , 21. isa. 2. 3. joyntly praising god with chearefull hearts . psalm . 42. 4. giving and receiving mutuall consolation , psal. 55. 14. and all this , with much more of the same nature , at their meetings , either occasionall , or for that purpose indicted . alwayes provided , that they abstained from fingring the arke , or medling with those things which were appropriated to the office of the priests : and concerning them hitherto . chap. 3. containing a digression concerning the name of priests , the right of christians thereunto by their interest in the priesthood of christ , with the presumption of any particularly appropriating it to themselves . and now the transaction of these things , in the christian church , presents it selfe , to our consideration ; in handling whereof , i shall not at all discourse , concerning the severall church officers instituted by christ and his apostles , for the edification of his body : nor concerning the difference between them , who were partakers at first of an extraordinary vocation , and those who since have been called to the same work in an ordinary manner , divinely appointed for the direction of the church : neither yet doth that diversity of the administration of government in the churches , then when they were under the plenitude of apostolicall power , and now when they follow rules prescribed for their reiglement , come in my way . further , who are the subject of the keyes in whom all that secondary ecclesiasticall power , which is committed to men doth reside , after the determination of so many learned men , by cleere scripture light , shall not by me be called in question : all these though conducing to the businesse in hand , would require a large discussion , and such a scholasticall handling , as would make it an inconsutilous piece , of this popular discourse : my intent being only to shew , that seeing there are , as all acknowledge , some under the new testament , as well as the old , peculiarly set apart by gods own appointment for the administration of christs ordinances , especially teaching of others by preaching of the gospell , in the way of office and duty , what remaineth for the rest of gods people to doe , for their own and others edification . but here before i enter directly upon the matter , i must remove one stone of offence , concerning the common apellation of those who are set apart for the preaching of the gospell : that which is most frequently used for them in the new testament is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , so 1 cor. 3. 5. 2 cor. 3. 6. and chap. 6. 4. and 11. 15 , 23. 1 tim. 4. 6. and in divers other places ; to which adde {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , 1 cor. 41. a word though of another originall , yet of the same signification with the former : & both rightly translated ministers : the names of ambassadours , stewards and the like , wherewith they are often honoured are figurative , & given unto them , by allusion only , that the former belonged unto them , and were proper for them , none ever denied but some rabshakes of antichrist ; another name there is , which some have assumed unto themselves , as an honour , and others have imposed the same upon them for a reproch : viz. that of priest , which to the takers seemed to import a more mysterious imployment , a greater advancement above the rest of their brethren , a neerer approach unto god , in the performances of their office , then that of ministers : wherefore they embraced it , either voluntarily , alluding to the service of god and the administration thereof amongst his antient people the jewes , or thought that they ought necessarily to undergoe it , as belonging properly to them , who are to celebrate those mysteries , and offer those sacrifices , which they imagined , were to them prescribed : the imposers on the contrary , pretend divers reasons why now that name can signifie none but men rejected from gods work , and given up to superstitious vanities ; attending in their minds , the old priests of baal , and the now shavelings of antichrist : it was a new etimologie of this name , which that learned man cleaved unto , who unhappily was ingaged into the defence of such errours , as he could not but see , and did often confesse : to which also he , he had an entrance made by an arch-bishop ; to wit , that it was but an abbreviation of presbyters , knowing full well , not only that the signification of these words , is divers amongst them , to whom belongs jus & norma loquendi , but also , that they are widely different in holy writ . yea farther , that those who first dignified themselves with this title , never called themselves presbyters , by way of distinction from the people , but only to have a note of distance among themselvs : there being more then one sort of them that were sacrificers , and which eo nomine , accounted themselves priests : setting aside then all such evasions and distinctions as the people of god are not bound to take notice of , and taking the word in its ordinary acceptation , i shall briefly declare , what i conceive of the use thereof , in respect of them , who are ministers of the gospell : which i shall labour to cleare by these following observations : 1. all faithfull ministers of the gospell , in as much as they are ingrafted into christ , and are true believers , may , as all other true christians , be called priests : but this inasmuch as they are members of christ , not ministers of the gospell : it respecteth their persons , not their function , or not them as such : now i conceive it may give some light to this discourse , if we consider the grounds and reasons of this metaphoricall appellation , in divers places of the gospell , ascribed to the worshippers of christ ; and how the analogie , which the present dispensation holds with what was established under the administration of the old testament , may take place : for there we find the lord thus bespeaking his people , ye shall be unto me a kingdome of priests , an holy nation , exod. 19. 6. so that it should seeme that there was then a twofold priesthood : a rituall priesthood , conferred upon the tribe of levi , and a royall priesthood , belonging to the whole people : the first is quite abrogated and swallowed up in the priesthood of christ , the other , is put over unto us under the gospell , being ascribed to them and us , and every one in covenant with god , not directly and properly , as denoting the function peculiarly so ca●led , but comparatively with reference had to them that are without ; for as those who were properly called priests , had a neerer accesse unto god , then the rest of the people , especially in his solemne worship , so all the people that are in covenant with god , have such an approximatiō unto him by vertue thereof , in comparison of them that are without , that in respect thereof , they are said to be prists : now the outward covenant made with them , who were the children of abraham after the flesh , was representative of the covenant of grace made with the children of promise , and that whole people typified the hidden elect people of god ; so that of both there is the same reason . thus as the priests the sons of levi are said to come neere unto god , deut. 21. 5. and god tels them that him whom he hath chosen , he will cause to come neere unto him , numb. 16. 5. chosen by a particular calling ad munus to the office of the rituall priesthood : so in regard of that other kind , comparatively so called , it is said of the whole people , what nation is there so great that hath god so nigh unto them , as the lord our god is in all things that we call upon him for , deut. 4. 7. their approaching nigh unto god made them all a nation of priests , in comparison of those dogs and unclean gentiles that were out of the covenant : now this prerogative is often appropriate to the faithful in the new testament : for through christ we have an accesse by one spirit unto the lord , eph. 2. 18. & 3. 19. we have boldnesse & accesse with confidence : so james 4. 8. draw nigh unto god , and he will draw nigh unto you : which accesse and approximation unto god , seemed as before was spoken to be uttered in allusion to the priests of the old law , who had this priviledge above others in the publike worship , in which respect only things then were typicall . since because we enjoy that prerogative in the truth of the thing it selfe ; which they had onely in type , we also are called priests : and as they were said to draw nigh in reference to the rest of the people ; so we , in respect of them , who are strangers to the covenant : that now are said to be afarre off , ephes. 2. 17. and hereafter shall be without , for without are dogs , &c. rev. 22. 15. thus this metaphoricall appellation of priests is in the first place an intimation of that transcendent priviledge of grace and favour , which jesus christ hath purchased for every one that is sanctified with the bloud of the covenant . 2. we have an interest in this appellation of priests , by vertue of our union with christ , being one with our high priest , we also are priests : there is a twofold union between christ & us : the one , by his taking upon him our nature , the other , by bestowing on us his spirit : for as in his incarnation he took upon him our flesh and bloud by the work of the spirit , so in our regeneration he bestoweth on us his flesh and blood , by the operation of the same spirit : yea so strict is this latter union , which we have with christ , that as the former is truly said to be a union of two natures into one person , so this , of many persons into one nature ; for by it , we are made partakers of the divine nature , 2 pet. 1. 4. becoming members of his body , of his flesh , and of his bones , ephes. 5. 30. we are so parts of him , of his mysticall body , that we and he become thereby as it were one christ ; for as the body is one , and hath many members , and all the members of that one body being many , are one body , so is christ , 1 cor. 12. 12. and the ground of this is , because the same spirit is in him and us ; in him indeed dwelleth the fulnesse of it , when it is bestowed upon us , onely by measure : but yet it is still the same spirit ; and so makes us , according to his own prayer , one with him : as the soul of man being one , makes the whole body with it , to be but one man ; two men cannot be one , because they have two souls ; no more could we be one with christ , were it not the same spirit in him and us : now let a man be never so big or tall , that his feet rest upon the earth , and his head reach to heaven , yet having but one soul , he is still but one man : now though christ for the present , in respect of our nature assumed , be never so far remote and distant from us in heaven , yet by the effectuall energie , and inhabitation of the same spirit , he is still the head of that one body , whereof we are members , still but one with us . hence ariseth to us a twofold right to the title of priests ; 1. because being in him , and members of him , we are accounted to have done , in him , and with him , whatsoever he hath done for us ; we are buried with christ , rom. 6. 4. dead with him , v. 8. quickned together with christ , ephes. 2. 5. being raised up , we sit together with him in heavenly places , v. 6. risen with him , colos. 3. 1. now all these in christ , were in some sence sacerdotall ; wherefore we having an interest in their performance , by reason of that heavenly participation , derived from them unto us , and being united unto him , that in them was so properly , are therefore called priests . secondly , by vertue of this union , there is such an analogie between that which christ hath done for us as a priest , and what he worketh in us , by his holy spirit , that those acts of ours , come be called by the same name with his , & we for them , to be termed priests . thus because christs death , and shedding of his blood , so offering up himself by the eternall spirit , was a true , proper sacrifice for sin , even our spirituall death unto sin , is described to be such , both in the nature of it , to be an offering or sacrifice ; for i beseech you brethren ( saith s. paul ) that you offer up your bodies a living sacrifice , holy , &c. rom. 12. 1. and for the manner of it , our old man is crucified with him , that the body of sin might be destroyed , rom. 6. 6. thirdly , we are priests as we are christians , or partakers of an holy unction , whereby we are annointed to the participation of all christs glorious offices ; we are not called christians for nothing ; if truly we are so , then have we an unction from the holy one , whereby we know all things , 1 ioh. 2. 20. and thus also were all gods people under the old covenant , when god gave that caution concerning them , touch not my christians , and do my prophets no harm , psal. 105. 15. the unction then of the holy spirit , implies a participation of all those endowments which were typified by the anointing with oyl , in the old testament ; and invests us with the priviledges in a spirituall acceptation , of all the sorts of men , which then were so anointed ; to wit , of kings , priests and prophets : so that by being made christians ( every one is not so that bears that name ) we are ingrafted into christ , and do attain to a kinde of holy and intimate communion with him , in all his glorious offices , & in that regard are called priests . fourthly , the sacrifices we are injoyned to offer , give ground to this appellation ; now they are of divers sorts , though all in generall , eucharisticall ; as first , of prayers and thanksgivings , psa. 116 17. i will offer unto thee the sacrifice of thanksgiving , and will call upon the name of the lord ; and again , let my prayer be set before thee as incense , and the lifting up of my hands be as the evening sacrifice , psa. 141. 2. so , heb. 13. 14. therefore let us offer unto god the sacrifice of praise , that is , the fruit of our lips . secondly , of good vvorks , heb. 13. 14. to do good , and to communicate forget not , for vvith such sacrifices god is well pleased . thirdly , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} or self-slaughter , crucifying the old man , killing sin , and offering up our souls and bodies , an acceptable sacrifice unto god , rom. 12. 1. fourthly , the sweet incense of martyrdom ; yea , and if i be offered up on the sacrifice and service of your faith , philip . 2. 17. now these and sundry other services acceptable to god , receiving this appellation in the scripture , denominate the performers of them priests . now here it must be observed , that these aforenamed holy duties , are called sacrifices , not properly , but metaphorically onely , not in regard of the externall acts , as were those under the law , but in regard of the internall purity of heart , from whence they proceed . and because pure sacrifices by his own appointment , where heretofore the most acceptable service to almighty god ; therefore now , when he would declare himself , to be very much delighted with the spirituall acts of our duty , he calls them , oblations , incense , sacrifices , offerings , &c. to intimate also a participation with him in his offices , who properly and directly is the onely priest of his church , and by the communication of the vertue of whose sacrifice we are made priests , not having authority in our own names , to go unto god for others , but having liberty through him , and in his name , to go unto god for our selves . not to lose my self and reader in this digression , the sum is , the unspeakable blessings which the priesthood of christ hath obtained for us , are a strong obligation for the duty of praise and thanksgiving , of which that in some measure we may discharge our selves , he hath furnished us with sacrifices of that kinde , to be offered unto god : for our own parts , we are poor , and blinde , and lame , and naked , neither in the field , nor in the fold , in our hearts , nor among our actions , can we finde any thing worth the presenting unto him ; wherefore he himself provides them for us , especially for that purpose , sanctifying and consecrating our souls and bodies , with the sprinkling of his blood , and the unction of the holy spirit . further , he hath erected an altar ( to sanctifie our gifts ) in heaven , before the throne of grace , which being spread over with his blood , is consecrated unto god , that the sacrifices of his servants may for ever appear thereon : adde to this , what he also hath added , the eternall and never expiring fire , of the favour of god , which kindleth and consumes the sacrifices laid on that altar : and to the end that all this may be rightly accomplished , he hath consecrated us with his blood , to be kings and priests to god for evermore . so that the close of this discourse will be , that all true beleevers , by vertue of their interest in jesus christ , are in the holy scripture , by reason of divers allusions , called priests , which name , in the sense before related , belonging unto them as such , cannot on this ground , be ascribed to any part of them , distinguished any wayes from the rest , by vertue of such distinction . secondly , the second thing i observe concerning the businesse in hand , is , that the offering up unto god , of some metaphoricall sacrifices , in a peculiar manner , is appropriate unto men , set a part for the work of the ministery : as the slaying of mens lusts , and the offering up of them being converted by the preaching of the gospel , unto god : so saint paul of his ministery , rom. 15. 16. that i should be the minister of iesus christ , unto the gentiles , ministring the gospel of god ; that the offering up of the gentiles might be acceptable , &c. ministers preaching the gospel , to the conversion of souls , are said to kill mens lusts , and offer them up unto god , as the fruit of their calling ; as abel brought unto him an acceptable sacrifice , of the fruit of his flock ; and so also in respect of divers other acts of their duty , which they perform in the name of their congregations . now these sacrifices are appropriate to the ministers of the gospel , not in regard of the matter , for others also may convert souls unto god , and offer up prayers and praises , in the name of their companions : but in respect of the manner , they do it publikely and ordinarily ; others privately , or in extraordinary cases ; now if the ministers , who are thus gods instruments for the conversion of souls , be themselves ingrafted into christ ; all the acts they perform in that great work , are but parts of their own duty , of the same nature in that regard , with the rest of our spirituall sacrifices : so that they have not by them , any further peculiar interest in the office of the priesthood more then others : but if these preachers themselves do not belong unto the covenant of grace , ( as god oftentimes out of his care for his flock , bestows gifts upon some for the good of others , on whom hee will bestow no graces , for the benefit of their own souls , men may administer that consolation out of the word unto their flock , which themselves never tasted , preach to others , and bee themselves castawaies . saint paul tells us that some preach christ out of envy and contention , not sincerely , but on purpose to adde to his affliction ; and yet saith he whether in pretence or in truth , christ is preached , and therein doe i . rejoyce , yea , and will rejoyce , philip . 1. 16 , 17 , 18. surely had there been no good effected by such preaching , saint paul would not have rejoyced in it ; and yet doubtlesse it was no evidence of sanctification , to preach christ meerely out of contention , ( and on purpose to adde to the affliction of his servants ) but i say if the lord shall be pleased at any time to make use of such , as instruments ; in his glorious worke of converting soules , shall we thinke that it is looked upon , as their sacrifice unto god ? no surely , the soule of the lord is delighted with the repentance of sinners ; but all the sacrifices of these wicked men are an abomination unto him , and therefore they have no interest in it ; neither can they from hence , be said to be priests of god , seeing they continue dogges and uncleane beasts , &c. so that all the right unto this priestly office , seemes be resolved into , and be the same with the common interest of all beleevers in christ , whereby they have a participation of his office : whence i affirme ; thirdly , that the name of priests is no where in the scripture attributed peculiarly , and distinctly to the ministers of gospel as such ; let any produce an instance to the contrary , and this controversie is at an end : yea that which puts a difference betweene them , and the rest of the people of gods holinesse , seemes to be a more immediate participation of christs propheticall office , to teach , instruct , and declare the will of god unto men , and not of his sacerdotall , to offer sacrifices for men unto god . now i could never observe that any of those , who wereso forward of late to stile themselves priests , were at all greedy of the apellation of prophets ; no , this they were content to let goe , name and thing ; and yet when christ ascended on high , he gave some to be prophets , for the edification of his body , ephes. 4. 11. none as wee finde to be priests : priests then ( like prelats ) are a sort of church officers , whom christ never appointed ; whence i conclude ; fourthly , that whosoever maintaineth any priests of the new stament , as properly so called in relation to any altar or sacrifice , by them to be offered , doth as much as in him lyeth disanull the covenant of grace , and is blasphemously injurious to the priesthood of christ ; the priest and the sacrifice under the new testament are one , and the same : and therefore they who make themselves priests , must also make themselves christs , or get another sacrifice of their owne . as there is but one god , so there is but one mediator of god and man , the man jesus christ , 1 tim. 2. 5. now he became the mediator of the new testament chiefly by his priesthood , because by the eternall spirit he offered up himselfe unto god , heb. 9. 14. 15. neither is any now called of god to be a priest as was aaron , and without such divine vocation to this office , none ought to undertake it , as the apostle argues , heb. 5. now , the end of any such vocation , and office is quite ceased ; being nothing but to offer gifts and sacrifices unto god , heb. 8. 3. for christ hath offered one sacrifice for sin for ever , and is sate downe at the right hand of god , heb. 10. 12. yea by one offering he hath perfected them that are sanctified , v. 14. and if that did procure remission of sins , there must be no more offering for sin , v. 18. and the surrogation of another makes the bloud of christ to be no better then that of bulls and goates . now one of those they must doe , who make themselves priests , ( in that sence concerning which we now treat ) either get them a nevv sacrifice of their owne , or pretend to offer christ againe ; the first seemes to have been the fault , of those of ours , who made a sacrifice of the sacrament , yet pretended not to beleeve the reall presence of christ in , or under the outward elements or species of them ; the other of the romanists , whose priests in their masse , blasphemously make themselves mediators , between god and his son , and offering up christ iesus for a sacrifice , desire god to accept him ; so charging that sacrifice with imperfection , which he offered on the altar of the crosse , and making it necessary not only that he should annually , but daily , yee hourely suffer afresh , so recrucifying unto themselves , the lord of glory . further , themselves confessing , that to be a true sacrifice it is required , that that which is offered unto god be destroyed , and cease to be , what it vvas , they doe confesse by what lyes in them , to destroy the son of god , and by their masse , have transubstanciatd their altars into crosses , their temples into golgatha's , their prelates into pilates , their priests into hangmen ; tormentors of iesus christ , concerning them and ours we may shut up this discourse , with what the apostle intimates to the hebrews , viz. that all priests are ceased , who were mortall , now small cause have we to beleeve them to be immateriall spirits , among whom we finde the workes of the flesh to have been so frequent . and this may give us some light , into the iniquity of those times , whereinto we were lately fallen ; in which lord bishops and priests , had almost quite oppressed the bishops of the lord , and ministers of the gospell ; how unthankefull men were we , for the light of the gospell , men that loved darkenesse rather then light . a wonderfull , and horrible thing vvas wrought in our land , the prophets prophesied falsly , the priests bare rule by their meanes , almost the whole people loved to have it so , and what shall we now doe in the end thereof , ierem. 5. 30. 31. such a hasty apostacy was growing on us , as we might justly wonder at , because unparalelled in any church , of any age : but our revolters were profound , hasty men and eager in their masters service . so what an height of impiety , and opposition to christ , the roman apostacy in a thousand yeeres attained unto , and yet i dare aver that never so many errors & suspitions in an 100. yeeres crept into that church , as did into ours of england in 16. and yet i cannot herein give the commendation of so much as industry to our innovators ; ( i accuse not the whole church , but particulars in it , and that had seized themselves of its authority ) because they had a platforme before them , and materialls provided to their hand ; and therefore it was an easie thing for them to erect a babel of antichristian confusion ; when the workemen in the roman apostacy were forced to build in the plaine of christianity without any praeexistent materialls , but were fain to use brick and slime , of their own provision ; besides they were unacquainted with the maine designe of satan , who set them on worke ; and therefore it is no wonder if those nimrods oftimes hunted counter , and disturbed each other in their progresse ; yea the first mover in church apostacy , knowes , that novv his time is but short , and therefore it behooves him to make speedy worke in seducing , lest he be prevented by the comming of christ . then having himselfe a long tract of time granted unto him , he allowed his agents to take leasure also ; but what he doth novv , must be done quickly , or his whole designe will be quashed : and this made him inspire the present businesse , with so much life and vigor . moreover , he was compelled then to sow his tares in the darke , while men slept , taking advantage at the ignorance and imbroylement of the times ; if any man had leasure enough to search , and learning enough to see and finde him at it , he commonly filled the world with clamors against him , and scarse any but his vowed champions durst be his advocates ; in our time he was grown bold and impudent , working at noone day ; yea , he openly accused and condemned , all that durst accuse him , for sowing any thing but good wheat , that durst say that the tares of his arminianisme and popery was any thing but true doctrine : let us give so much way to indignation , we know satans trade what it is , to accuse the brethren , as men are called after their professions , one a lawyer , another a physitian , so is he the accuser of the brethren ; now surely if ever he set up a shop on earth , to practise his trade in , it was our high commission court , as of late imployed , but {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . cap. 4. of the duty of gods people in cases extraordinary concerning his worship . this being thus determined , i returne againe to the maine {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , concerning the duty and priviledge of the common people of christianity , in sacred things : and first in cases extraordinary , in which perhaps it may be affirmed , that every one ( of those i meane before named ) is so farre a minister of the gospell as to teach and declare the faith to others , although he have no outward calling thereunto ; and yet in this case every one for such an undertaking must have a warrant by an immediate cal from god , and when god calls there must be no opposition , the thing it selfe he sends us upon , becomes lawfull by his mission , what god hath cleansed , that call not thou common , act. 10. 13. never feare the equity of what cod sets thee upon ; no excuses of disability or any other impediment , ought to take place , the lord can and will supply all such defects : this was moses case , exod. 10. 14. oh lord ( saith hee ) i am not eloquent , neither heretofore , nor since thou hast spoken to thy servant , but of a slow speech , and a slow tongue ; and the lord said unto him , who hath made mans mouth , have not i the lord ? so also was it with the prophet jeremy , when god told him , that hee had ordained him a prophet unto the nations , he replyes , ah lord god , behold i cannot speake , for i am a child ; but the lord ( saith hee ) said unto me , say not i am a child , for thou shalt goe to all that i shall send thee , and whatsoever i command thee , thou shalt speak , jer. 1. 6. nothing can excuse any from going on his message , who can perfect his praise , out of the mouth of babes and sucklings . this the prophet amos rested upon , when he was questioned , although he were unfit for that heavenly employment , either by education or course of life : i was no prophet , neither was i a prophets sonne ; but i was an heardman , and a gatherer of sycamore fruit ; and the lord tooke me as i followed the flock , and said unto me , go prophecy to my people israel amos 7. 14 , 15. so on the contrary , st. paul , a man of strong parts , great learning , and endowments , of indefatigable industry , and large abilities , yet affirmes of himselfe , that when god called him to preach his word , he conferred not with flesh and bloud , but went on presently with his work . gal. 1. 16 , 17. cap. v. of the severall wayes of extraordinary calling to the teaching of others ; the first way . now three wayes may a man receive , and be assured that hee hath received this divine mission , or know that he is called of god , to the preaching of the word : i meane not that perswasion of divine concurrence , which is necessary also for them , ●hat are partakers of an ordinary vocation , ( but which is required in extraordinary cases to them , in whom all outward calling is wanting . 1. by immediate revelation . 2. by a concurrence of scripture rules , directory for such occasions . 3. by some outward acts of providence necessitating him thereunto . for the first , not to speak of light propheticall , whither it consists in a habit , or rather in a transient irradiating motion , nor to discourse of the species , whereby supernaturall things are conveyed to the naturall facultie , with the severall wayes of divine revelation , ( for st. paul affirmeth it to have been {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} as well as {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) with the sundry appellations it received , from the manner whereby it came ; i shall onely shew , what assurance such a one as is thus called may have in himselfe , that he is so called , and how he may manifest it unto others . that men receiving any revelation from god , had alwayes an assurance that such it was , to me seemes most certain : neither could i ever approve the note of gregory on the 1. of ezek. viz. that prophets being accustomed to prophecying , did oftentimes speake of their own spirit , supposing that it proceeded from the spirit of prophesie . what is this but to question the truth of all propheticall revelations , and to shake the faith that is built upon it : surely the prophet jeremiah had an infallible assurance of the author of his message , when he pleaded for himself before the princes , of a truth the lord hath sent me unto you , to speake all these words in your eares . chap. 26. 15. and abraham certainly had neede of a good assurance whence that motion did proceed , which made him addresse himselfe , to the sacrificing the son of promise ; and that all other prophets had the like evidence of knowledge , concerning the divine verity of their revelations is unquestionable ; hence are those allusions in the scripture , whereby it is compared unto things whereof we may be most certaine by the assurance of sense . so amos 3. 8. the lyon hath roared , who will not feare ? the lord god hath spoken , who can but prophecy ? and jerem. 20. 9. his word was in my heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones , things sensible enough . happily satan may so far delude false prophets , as to make them suppose their lying vanities are from above : whence they are said to be prophets of the deceit of their owne hear , jerem. 23. 26. being deceived , as well deceivers ; thinking in themselves , as well as speaking unto others , he saith , vers. 31. but that any true prophets should not know a true revelation , from a motion of their owne hearts , wants not much of blasphemy . the lord surely supposes that assurance of discerning , when he gives that command ; the prophet that hath a dreame , let him tell a dreame , and he that hath my word , let him speake my word faithfully ; what is the chaffe to the wheate ? ierem. 23. 28. he must be both blind and mad , that shall mistake , wheat , for chaffe , and on the contrary , what some men speak of an hidden instinct from god , moving the mindes of men , yet so , as they know not wither it be from him , or no , may better serve to illustrate plutarchs discourse of socrates daemon , then any passage in holy writ . st. austin saies , his mother would affirme , that though she could not expresse it , yet she could discern the difference between gods revelation , and her own dreames : in which relation , i doubt not but the learned father tooke advantage from the good old womans words of what she could do , to declare what might be done , of every one that had such immediate revelations . briefly then , the spirit of god , never so extraordinarily moveth the minde of man to apprehend any thing of this kinde whereof we speake , but it also illustrateth it with a knowledge , and assurance , that it is divinely moved to this apprehension . now because it is agreed on all sides , that light propheticall is no permanent habit in the minde of the prophets , but a transient impression , of it selfe , not apt to give any such assurance , it may be questioned from what other principle it doth proceed . but not to pry into things perhaps not fully revealed , and seeing st. paul shewes us that in such heavenly raptures , there are some things unutterable of them , and incomprehensible of us , we may let this rest , amongst those {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , it apappeareth then from the preceding discourse , that , a man pretending to extraordinary vocation , by immdiate revelation , in respect of selfe-perswasion , of the truth of his call , he must be , as ascertained of it , as he could be , of a burning fire in his bones , if there shut up . cap. vi . what assurance men extraordinarily called , can give to others , that they are so called in the former way . the next thing to be considered , is , what assurance he can give to others , and by what means , that he is so called . now the matter , or subject of their imployment may give us some light , to this consideration : and this is either , the inchoation of some divine work to be established amongst men , by vertue of a new , and before never heard of revelation of gods will ; or a restauration of the same , when collapsed and corrupted by the sin of men . to the first of these , god never sendeth any , but whom he doth so extraordinarily and immediately call , and ordain for that purpose , and that this may be manifested unto others , he alwayes accompanieth them with his own almighty power , in the working of such miracles , as may make them beleeved , for the very works sake which god by them doth effect . this we may see in moses , and ( after iesus christ anointed with the oyl of gladnesse above his fellows to preach the gospel ) the apostles : but this may passe ; for nothing in such a way , shall ever again take place , god having ultimately revealed his minde , concerning his worship , and our salvation ; a curse being denounced to man or angel , that shall pretend to revelation , for the altering or changing one jot or title of the gospel . for the other , the work of reformation , there being , ever since the writing of his word , an infallible rule , for the performance of it , making it fall within the duty and ability of men , partakers of an ordinary vocation , and instructed with ordinary gifts ; god doth not always immediately call men unto it : but yet because oftentimes he hath so done , we may enquire what assurance they could give , of this their calling , to that imployment . our saviour christ informs us , that a prophet is often without honour in his own country : the honour of a prophet , is to have credence given to his message ; of which it should seem , jonas was above measure zealous ; yet such is the cursed infidelity and hardnesse of mens hearts , that though they cryed , thus saith the lord , yet they would reply the lord hath not spoken ; hence are those pleadings betwixt the prophet ieremie , and his enemies the prophet averring of a truth , the lord hath sent me unto you , and they contesting , that the lord had not sent him , but that he lyed in the name of the lord ; now to leave them inexcusable , and whether they would heare or whether they would forbeare , to convince them , that there hath been a prophet amongst them , as also to give the greater credibility to their extraordinary message , to them that were to beleeve their report , it is necessary that the arme of the lord should be revealed , working in and by them , in some extraordinary manner , it is certain enough , that god never sent any one extraordinarily , instructed onely with ordinary gifts , and for an ordinary end : the ayme of their imployment i shewed before was extraordinary , even the reparation of something instituted by god , and collapsed by the sin of man ; that it may be credible , or appeare of a truth , that god had sent them for this purpose , they were alwayes furnished , with such gifts and abilities , as the utmost reach of humane indeavours , with the assistance of common grace cannot possibly attaine . the generall opinion is , that god alwayes supplies such , with the gift of miracles . take the word in a large sence , for every supernaturall product , beyond the ordinary activity of that secondary cause whereby it is effected , and i easily grant it ; but in the usuall restrained acceptation of it , for outward wonderfull workes , the power of whose production consists in operation , i something doubt the universall truth of the assertion . we do not read of any such miracles wrought by the prophet amos , and yet he stands upon his extraordinary immediate vocation ; i was neither prophet nor the son of a prophet , but the lord called me , &c. it sufficeth then that they be furnished with a supernaturall power either in , 1. discerning , 2. speaking , 3. working : the power of discerning according to the things by it discernable , may be said to be of two sorts , for it is either of things present , beyond the power of humane investigation , as to know the thoughts of other mens hearts , or their words not ordinarily to be knowne , as elisha discovered the bed-chamber-discourse of the king of syria ( not that by vertue of their calling they come to be {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , knowers of the heart , which is gods property alone , but that god doth sometimes reveale such things unto them , for otherwise no such power is included in the nature of the gift , which is perfective of their knowledge , not by the way of habit , but actuall motion in respect of some particulars , and when this was absent , the same elisha affirmeth that he knew not why the shunamitish woman was troubled ) or secondly of things future and contingent in respect of their secundary causes , not precisely necessitated by their own internall principle of operation , for the effecting of the things so foreknown : and therefore the truth of the fore-knowledge , consists in a commensuration to gods purpose . now effects of this power , are all those predictions of such things which wee finde in the old and new testament , and divers also since : secondly , the supernaturall gift in speaking i intimate , is that of tongues , proper to the times of the gospel , when the worship of god was no longer to be confined to the people of one nation . the third in working , is that which strictly and properly , is called the gift of miracles : which are hard , rare , and strange effects exceeding the whole order of created nature : for whose production god sometimes useth his servants instrumentally , moving and inabling them thereunto , by a transient impression , of his powerfull grace ; of which sort the holy scripture hath innumerable relations . now with one of those extraordinary gifts at the least , sometimes with all , doth the lord furnish those his messengers of whom we treat : which makes their message a sufficient revelation of gods will , and gives it credibility enough , to stir up faith in some , and leave others inexcusable . all the difficulty is , that there have been simon magusses , and are antichrists , falsely pretending to have in themselves , this mighty power of god , in one or other of the forenamed kinds . hence were those many false prophets , dreamers , and wizards mentioned in the old testament , which the lord himselfe forewarnes us of , as also those agents of that man of sin , whose comming is after the working of satan with povver and signes , and lying vvonders , 2 thes. 2. 9. i meane the jugling priests and iesuits , pretending falsely by their impostures to the power of miracle vvorking ; though their imployment be not to reforme , but professedly to corrupt the worship of god : now in such a case as this , we have : 1. the mercy of god to relye upon , whereby he will guide his into the vvay of truth , and the purpose or decree of god , making it impossible that his elect should be deceived by them . secondly , humane diligence accompanied with gods blessing , may helpe us wonderfully in a discovery , whither the pretended miracles be of god , or no ; for there is nothing more certaine , then that a true and reall miracle , is beyond the activity of all created povver , ( for if it be not , it is not a miracle ) so that the divell and all his emissaries are not able to effect any one act truely miraculous : but in all their pretences there is a defect discernable , either in respect of the thing it selfe pretended to be done , or of the manner of its doing , not truely exceeding the power of art or nature , though the apprehension of it , by reason of some hell-conceived circumstances , be above our capacity . briefely , either the thing is a lye , and so it is easie to faigne miracles , or the performance of it , is pure jugling , and so it is easie to delude poore mortalls . innumerable of this sort at the beginning of the reformation , were discovered among the agents , of that wonder-vvorking man of sin , by the blessing of god upon humane endeavours ; now from such discoveries , a good conclusion may be drawne , against the doctrine they desire by such meanes to confirme : for as god never worketh true miracles , but for the confirmation of the truth , so will not men pretend such as are false , but to persvvade that to others for a truth , which themselves have just reason to be persvvaded is a lye ; now if this meanes faile , thirdly , god himselfe hath set downe a rule of direction for us , in the time of such difficulty , deut. 13. 1 , 2 , 3. if there arise among you a prophet or dreamer of dreames , and giveth thee a signe or a vvonder , and the signe , or the vvonder come to passe , vvherefore he spake unto thee , saying , let us goe after other gods to serve them , thou shalt not hearken to the vvords of that prophet , or dreamer of dreames , for the lord your god proveth you , to know whether yee love the lord your god , with all your heart , and all your soul . ye shall vvalk after the lord your god , and fear him , and keep his commandements , and obey his voice , and you shall serve him , and cleave unto him , and that prophet or dreamer of dreams shall be put to death . the sum is , that seeing such men pretend that their revelations and miracles are from heaven , let us search , whither the doctrine they seeke to confirme by them , bee from heaven , or no ; if it bee not , let them bee stoned , or accursed , for they seeke to dravv us from our god , if it bee , let not the curse of a stony heart , to refuse them , be upon us . where the miracles are true , the doctrine cannot be false ; and if the doctrine be true , in all probability the miracles confirming it , are not false ; and so much of them , who are immediatly called of god from heaven , what assurance they may have in themselves , of such a call , and what assurance they can make of it to others ; now such are not to expect any ordinary vocation ; from men below , god calling them aside to his worke , from the middest of their brethren : the lord of the harvest may send labourers into his field , without asking his stewards consent , and they shall speake what ever he saith unto them . chap. 7. the second way whereby a man may be called extraordinarily . secondly , a man may be extraordinarily called to the preaching and publishing of gods word by a concurrence of scripture rules , directory for such occasions , occurrences , and opportunities of time , place , and persons , as he liveth in , and under . rules in this kinde , may be drawn either from expresse precept , or approved practise : some of these i shall intimate , and leave it to the indifferent reader , to judge , whether or no they hold in the application ; and all that in this kinde i shall propose , i did with submission to better judgements . consider then , 1. that of our saviour to saint peter , luke 22. 32. when thou art converted , strengthen the brethren , which containing nothing but an application of one of the prime dictates of the law of nature , cannot , ought not to be restrained unto men of any peculiar calling as such : not to multiply many of this kinde , ( whereof in the scripture is plenty ) adde only that of saint james , brethren , if any of you do erre from the truth , and one convert him , let him know , that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way , shall save a soule from death , &c. from these and the like places it appeares to me , that 1. there is a generall obligation on all christians , to promote the conversion and instruction of sinners , and man erring from the right way : againe , consider that of our saviour , mat. 5. 15. men d●… not light a candle and put it under a rushell , but on a candlesticke , and it giveth light unto all that are in the house : to which adde that of the apostle , if any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by , let the first hold his peace , 1 cor. 14. 30. which words , although primarily they intend extraordinary immediate revelations , yet i see no reason why in their equity and extent , they may not be directory for the use of things revealed unto us by scripture light ; at least we may deduce from them , by the way of analogie , that 2. whatsoever necessary truth is revealed to any out of the word of god , not before known , he ought to have an uncontradicted liberty of declaring that truth , provided that he use such regulated wayes for that his declaration , as the church wherein he liveth ( if a right church ) doth allow . further see amos 3. 8. the lion hath roared , who will not feare ? the lord god hath spoken , who can but prophesie ? and jer. 20. 9. then said i , i will not make mention of his name , but his word was in mine heart , as a burning fire shut up in my bones , i was weary with forbearing , and i could not stay : with the answer of peter and john , to the rulers of the jews , acts 14. 19 , 20. whether it be right in the sight of god to hearken unto you more then unto god , judge yee , for we cannot but speake the things that we have seen and heard . whence it appeares , that 3. truth revealed unto any , carries along with it an unmoveable perswasion of conscience ( which is powerfully obligatory ) that it ought to be published and spoken to others . that none may take advantage of this to introduce confusion into our congregations , i gave a sufficient caution in the second rule . many other observations giving light to the businesse in hand , might be taken from the common dictates of nature , concurring with the many generall precepts we have in the scripture , but omitting them , the next thing i propose is the practise , &c. 1. of our saviour christ himselfe , who did not only pose the doctors when he was but twelve years old , luke 2. 46. but also afterwards preached in the synagogue of nazareth , luke 4. 18. being neither doctor , nor scribe , nor levite , but of the tribe of juda ( concerning which tribe it is evident that moses spake nothing concerning the priesthood . ) 2. againe , in the eight of the acts , great persecution arising against the church , after the death of stephen , they were all scattered abroad from jerusalem , ver. 1. that is , all the faithfull members of the church , who being thus dispersed , went every where , preaching the word , ver. 4. and to this their publishing of the gospell ( having no warrant , but the generall engagement of all christians , to further the propagation of christs kingdome ) occasioned by their own persecution , the lord gave such a blessing , that they were thereby the first planters of a setled congregation among the gentiles , they , and their converts being the first that were honoured by the name of christians , acts 11. 21. and 26. neither 3. is the example of saint paul altogether impertinent , who with his companions repaired into the synagogues of the jews , taught them publikely , yea , upon their own request , acts 13. 15. apollos also spake boldly , and preached fervently , when he knew only the baptisme of john , and needed himselfe further instruction , acts 18. 24. it should seeme then , in that juncture of time , he that was instructed in any truth , not ordinarily known , might publikely acquaint others with it , though he himselfe were ignorant in other points of high concernment ; yet perhaps now it is not possible that any occurrences should require a precise imitation , of what was not only lawfull , but also expedient , in that dawning towards the cleare day of the last unchangeable revelation of gods will . now in these and the like , there is so much variety , such severall grounds , and circumstances , that no direct rule can from them be drawn , only they may give strength to what from the former shall be concluded . for a further light to this discourse , consider what desolate estate the church of god , hath been , may be , and at this present , in divers places is reduced to : her silver may become drosse , and her wine be mixt with water , the faithfull city becomming an harlot , her shepheards may be turned into dumb sleeping dogs , and devouring wolves , her watchmen may be turned smiters , her prophets to prophesie falsely , and her priests to beare rule by lies , the commandements of god being made void by the traditions of men , superstition , humane inventions , will-worship , may defile and contaminate the service of god ; yea , and greater abominations may men possessing moses chaire by succession doe : now that the temple of god hath been thus made a den of theeves , that the abomination of desolation hath been set up in the holy place , is evident from the jewish and christian church : for in the one it was clearly so , when the government of it was devolved to the scribes and pharisees , and in the other , when the man of sin had exalted himselfe in the midst thereof . now suppose a man , living in the midst and height of such a sad apostacy , when an universall darknesse had spread it selfe over the face of the church , if the lord be pleased to reveale unto him out of his word some points of faith , then either not at all known , or generally disbelieved , yet a right beliefe whereof is necessary to salvation ; and further out of the same word shall discover unto him the wickednesse of that apostacy , and the meanes to remove it , i demand , whether that man without expecting any call from the fomenters and maintainers of those errors , with which the church at that time , is only not destroyed , may not preach , publish , and publikely declare the said truths to others ( the knowledge of them being so necessary for the good of their soules ) and conclude himselfe thereunto called of god , by vertue of the forenamed , and other the like rules ? truly for my part ( under correction ) i conceive he may , nay he ought , neither is any other outward call requisite to constitute him a preacher of the gospell , then the consent of gods people to be instructed by him ; for instance , suppose that god should reveale the truth of the gospel , to a meere lay man ( as they say ) in italy , so that he be fully convinced thereof ; what shall he now do ? abstaine from publishing it , though he be perswaded in conscience , that a great doore of utterance might be granted unto him , onely because some hereticall , symonaicall , wicked antichristian prelate , hath not ordained him minister ; who yet would not do it , unlesse he will subscribe to those errors and heresies which he is perswaded to be such : truly i think by so abstaining , he should sin against the law of charity , in seeing ( not the oxe or asse of his brother falling into the pit , but ) their precious soules , sinking to everlasting damnation , and not preventing it , when he might ? and were he indeed truly angry with his whole nation , he might have the advantage of an italian revenge . moreover , he should sin against the precept of christ , by hiding his light under a bushell ▪ and napkining up his talent , an increase whereof will be required of him at the last day : now with this i was alwayes so well satisfied , that i ever deemed all curious disquisition after the outward vocation of our first reformers , luther , calvin , &c. altogether needlesse ; the case in their dayes being exactly that , which i have laid downe . come we now to the third and last way , whereby men not partakers of any outward ordinary vocation , may yet receive a sufficient warrant for the preaching and publishing of the gospell , and that by some outward act of providence guiding them thereunto ; for example , put case a christian man , should by any chance of providence , be cast by shipwrack or otherwise , upon the country of some barbarous people , that never heard of the name of christ , and there by hs goodnesse that brought him thither , be received amongst them , into civill humane society ; may he not , nay , ought he not to preach christ unto them ? and if god give a blessing to his endeavours , may hee not become a pastor to the converted soules ? none i hope makes any doubt of it ; and in the primitive times , nothing was more frequent then such examples ; thus were the indians and the moores turned to the faith , as you may see in eusebius : yea great was the liberty which in the first church was used in this kinde , presently after the supernaturall gift of tongues ceased amongst men . chap. 8. of the liberty and duty of gifted , uncalled christians , in the excercise of divers acts of gods worship . and thus have i declared , what i conceive , concerning extraordinary calling to the publick teaching of the word ; in what cases onely it useth to take place , whence i conclude , that whosoever pretends unto it , not warranted by an evidence of one of those three wayes , that god taketh in such proceedings , is but a pretender , an impostor , and ought accordingly to be rejected of all gods people in other cases , not to disuse what outward ordinary occasion from them who are intrusted by commission from god , with that power , doth conferre upon persons so called , we must needs grant it a negative voyce , in the admission of any to the publick preaching of the gospell , if they come not in at that doore , they do climbe over the wall , if they make any entrance at all : it remaines then , to shut up all , that it be declared , what private christians , living in a pure , orthodoxe , well ordered church may doe , and how far they may interest themselves , in holy soule-concerning affaires , both in respect of their owne particular , and of their brethren in the midst of whom they live : in which determination , because it concerneth men of low degree , and those that comparatively may be said to be unlearned , i shall labour to expresse the conceivings of my minde , in as familiar plaine observations as i can ; onely thus much i desire may be premised , that the principles and rules of that church governement , from which , in the following assertions i desire not to wander , is of that ( to which i doe , and alwayes in my poore judgement have adhered , since by gods assistance , i had engaged my selfe to the study of his word ) which commonly is called presbyteriall , or synodicall , in opposition to prelaticall , or diocesan on the one side ; and that which is commonly called independant , or congregationall on the other . 1. then a diligent searching of the scriptures , with fervent prayers to almighty god , for the taking away that vaile of ignorance , which by nature is before their eyes , that they may come to a saving knowledge in , and a right understanding of them , is not only lawfull and convenient for all men professing the name of christ , but also absolutly necessary because commanded , yea indeed commanded , because the end so to be attained is absolutely necessarie to salvation : to confirme this , i need not multiply precepts out of the old or new testament , such as that of isa. 8. 20. to the law and to the testimony , and that of joh , 5. 39. search the scriptures , which are inumerable , nor yet heap up motives unto it , such as are the discription of the heavenly countrey , whither we are going , in them is cōtained , joh. 14. 2. 2 cor. 5. 1. revel : 22. 1. &c. the way by which we are to travaile laid down , iohn 5. 39. and 14. 5 , 6. jesus christ whom we must labour to be like , painted out , gal. 3. 1. and the back-parts of god discovered , deut. 29. 29. by them onely true spirituall wisdom is conveied to our souls , iere. 8. 9. whereby we may become even wiser then our teachers , psa. 119. in them all comfort and consolation is to be had , in the time of danger and trouble , psa. 119. 54. and 71 , 72. in briefe the knowledge of christ which is life eternall ioh. 17. 3. yea , all that can be said in this kinde comes infinitely short , of those treasures of wisdom , riches , & goodnes , which are contained in them ; the law of the lord is perfect converting the soule , the testimony of the lord is sure , making wise the simple , psa. 19. 7. but this duty of the people is cleere , and confessed ; the objections of the papists against it , being for the most part , so many blasphemies against the holy word of god ; they accuse it of difficulty , which god affirmes to make wise the simple , of obscurity , which openeth the eyes of the blinde ; to be a dead letter , a nose of wax , which is quicke and powerfull pearcing to the dividing asunder of the soule and spirit ; to be weake and insufficient , which is able to make the man of god perfect and wise unto salvation ; yea that word which the apostle affirmeth to be profitable for reproofe , is not in any thing more full , then in reproving of this blasphemy . 2. they may not onely ( as before ) search the scriptures , but also examine , and try by them the doctrine that publikely is taught unto them ; the people of god , must not be like children tossed too and fro , and carried about with every winde of doctrine , by the slight of men , and cunning craftinesse , whereby they lie in wait to deceive : ephes. 4. 14. all is not presently gospell , that is spoken in the pulpit , it is not long since , that altar-worship , arminianisme , popery , superstition , &c. were freely preached in this kingdom ; now what shall the people of god do in such a case ? yeild to every breath , to every puffe of false doctrine ? or rather try it by the word of god , and if it be not agreeable thereunto , cast it out like salt that hath lost its savour : must not the people take care that they be not seduced ? must they not beware of false prophets , which come unto them in sheepes cloathing , but inwardly are ravening wolves ? and how shall they do this ? what way remaines , but a trying their doctrine by the rule ? in these evill dayes wherein we live , i heare many daily complaining , that there is such difference , and contrariety among preachers , they know not what to doe , nor scarce what to believe ; my answer is , do but your own duty , and this trouble is at an end ; is there any contrarity in the book of god ? pin not your faith upon mens opinions , the bible is the touchstone : that there is such diversity amongst teachers is their fault , who should thinke all the same thing ; but that this is so troublesome to you , is your own fault , for neglecting your duty of trying all things by the word : alas , you are in a miserable condition , if you have all this while , relied on the authority of men , in heavenly things ; he that builds his faith upon preachers , though they preach nothing but truth , and he pretend to believe it , hath indeed no faith at all , but a wavering opinion , built upon a rotten foundation : what ever then is taught you , you must go with it , to the law , and to the testimony , if they speake not according to this word , it is because there is no light in them , isaiah 8. 20. yea , the bereans are highly extolled , for searching whether the doctrine concerning our saviour , preached by st. paul , were so , or no , acts 17. 11. agreeably to the precept of the same preacher , 1 thes. 5. 21. make triall of all things , and hold fast that which is good : as also to that of st. john , 1 epist. 4. 1. beloved , believe not every spirit , but try the spirits whether they be of god , because many false spirits ar● gone out into the world ; prophets then must be tried , before they be trusted ; now the reason of this holds still : there are many false teachers abroad in the world , wherefore try every one , trie his spirit , his spirituall gift of teaching , & that by the word of god . and here you have a door rule laid down , how you may extricate your selves from the former perplexity : nay , st. paul himself speaking to understanding christians , requires them to judge of it , 1 cor. 10. 15. i speake as to wise , judge ye what i say : hence are those cautions , that the people should looke that none do seduce them , matth. 24. 4. to which end , they must have their souls exercised , in the word of god , to discerne good and evil , heb. 5. 14. thus also in one place , christ biddeth his followers , heare the pharisees , and do what they should command , because they sate in moses chaire , matt. 23. 2 , 3. and yet in another place , gives them a caution to beware of the doctrine of the pharisees , matr. 16. 12. it remaineth then , that the people are bound to hear those , who possesse the place of teaching in the church , but withall they must beware that it contain nothing of the old leaven , to which end they must try it by the word of god : when as saint paul prayeth for the philippians , that their love might abound yet more and more in knowledge , and all judgement , that they might approve things that are excellent , phil. 1. 9 , 10. unlesse ministers will answer for all those soules they shall mislead , and excuse them before god , at the day of triall , they ought not to debar them , from trying their doctrine ; now this they cannot do , for if the blinde , lead the blinde both shall fall into the pit of destruction . and here i might have just occasion of complaint : 1. of the superstitious pride of the late clergy of this land , who could not endure to have their doctrine tried by their auditors , crying to poor men with the pharises , john 9. you were altogether borne in sins , and do you teach us ? a pretty world it is like to be , when the sheepe will needs teach their pastors ; nothing would serve them , but a blinde submission , to the loose dictates of their cobweb homilies : he saw farther sure , in the darkenesse of popery , who contended that a whole generall councell , ought to give place , to a simple lay man , urging scripture , or speaking reason . now surely this is very far from that gentlenesse , meeknesse , and aptnesse to teach , which st. paul requireth in a man of god , a minister of the gospel : secondly , the negligence of the people also , might here come under a just reproofe , who have not laboured , to discerne the voice of the hireling , from that of the true shepheard , but have promiscuously followed , the new fanglednesse , & hereticall errours , of every time serving starver of souls . whence proceedeth all that misery , the land now groaneth under , but that we have had a people , willing to be led by a corrupted clergy , freely drinking in the poison , wherewith they were tainted : the prophets prophesied falsely , the priests bare rule , by their meanes , the people loved to have it so , but what shall we now doe in the end thereof ; who could ever have thought , that the people of england , would have yeilded a willing eare , to so many popish errours , and an obedient shoulder , to such a heavy burden of superstitions , as in a few years , were instilled into them , and laid upon them : voluntarily by their own sinfull neglect , ensnaring their consciences , by the omission of this duty we insist upon , of examining by the word what is taught unto them ; but this is no place for complaints , and this is a second thing , which the people distinct from their pastors may do for their own edification . now whether they do this privately , every one apart , or by assembling more together , is altogether indifferent . and that this was observed by private christians , in the primitive times is very apparent . come we in the third place , what either their duty bindes them to , or otherwise by the word , they are allowed to doe , in sacred performances , having reference to others ; looke then in generall upon those things we finde them tied unto , by vertue of speciall precept : such as are to warne the unruly , comfort the feeble minded , support the weake , 1 thes. 5. 14. to admonish and reprove offending brethren , matth. 18. 15. to instruct the ignorant . joh. 4. 29. act. 18. 26. to exhort the negligent , heb. 3. 15. and 10. 24. 25. to comfort the afflicted , 1 thes. 5. 11. to restore him that falleth , gal. 6. 1. to visit the sicke ▪ matth. 25. 36 , 40. to reconcile those that are at variance , matth. 5. 9. to contend for the truth , jude 3. 1 pet. 3. 15. to pray for the sinner not unto death , 1 ioh. 5. 16. to edifie one another in their most holy faith , jude 20. to speak to themselves in psalmes and hymnes , and spirituall songs , ephe. 5. 19. to be ready to answer every man , in giving account of their faith , col. 4. 6. to marke them that make divisions , rom. 16. 17. with innumerable others to the like purpose , it remaineth them to consider : secondly , in particular , what course they may take , beyond private conference between man and man , by indiction of time or place , for the fulfilling of what by these precepts , and the like is of them required : to which i answer ▪ 1. lawfull things must be done lawfully , if any unlawfull circumstance , attends the performance of a lawfull action , it vitiates the whole worke , for bonum oritur ex integris ; for instance , to reprove an offender , is a christian duty , but for a private man to do it , in the publicke congregation , whilest the minister is preaching , were instead of a good act , a soule crime , being a notorious disturbance of church decency and order . 2. that for a publicke , formall , ministeriall teaching , two things are required in the teacher : first , gifts from god : secondly , authority from the church ( and i speake now of ordinary cases ) he that wants either , is no true pastor : for the first , god sends none upon an employment , but whom he fills with gifts for it : 1. not one command in the scripture made to teachers 2. not one rule for their direction : 3. not one promise to their endeavours , 4. not any end of their unemployment ; 5. not one incouragement to their duty , 6. not one reproofe for their negligence , 7. not the least intimation of their reward , but cuts off ungifted : idoll pastors , from any true interest in the calling : and for the other , that want authority from the church , neither ought they to undertake any formall act , properly belonging to the ministery , such as is , solemne teaching of the word ; for , 1. they are none of christs officers , ephes. 4. 11. 2. they are expresly forbidden it , ier. 23. 21. heb. 5. 4. 3. the blessing on the word is promised only to sent teachers , rom. 10. 14 , 15. 4. if to be gifted , be to be called , then , 1. every one might undertake so much in sacred duties , as he fancies himselfe to be able to performe . 2. children ( as they report of athanasius ) might baptise . 3. every ▪ common christian , might administer the communion : but endlesse are the arguments that might be multiplied against this fancy ; in a word , if our saviour christ be the god of order , he hath left his church to no such confusion . thirdly , that to appoint time and place , for the doing of that which god hath appointed indefinitely to be done , in time and place , rather commends then vitiates the duty ; so did jobs friends in the duty of comforting the afflicted , they made an appointment together to come and comfort him , job 2. 11. and so did they , zech. 8. 21. and so did david , psal. 119. 62. fourthly , there is much difference betweene opening or interpreting the word , and applying the word upon the advantage of such an approved interpretation , as also betweene an authoritative act , or doing a thing by vertue of speciall office , and a charitable act , or doing a thing out a motion of christian love . fifthly , it may be observed concerning gifts ; first , that the gifts and graces of gods spirit , are of two sorts , some being bestowed for the sanctification of gods people , some for the edification of his church , some of a private alley , looking primarily inwards , to the saving of his soule , on whom they are bestowed , ( though in their fruits also , they have a relation , and habitude to others ) other some , ayming at the common wealth or profit of the whole church , as such : of the first sort , are those mentioned , gal. 5. 22 , 23. the fruit of the spirit is love , joy , peace , &c. with all other graces that are necessary to make the man of god perfect , in all holinesse and the feare of the lord : the other are those {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , spirituall gifts of teaching ▪ praying , prophe●ying , mentioned , 1 cor. 14. and in other places . secondly , that all these gifts comming down from the father of lights , are given by the same spirit , dividing to every one as he will , 1 cor. 12. 11. he is not tied in the bestowing of his gifts , to any sort , estate , calling or condition of men , but worketh them freely , as it pleaseth him , in whom he will ; the spirit there mentioned , is that god which worketh all things , according to the counsell of his owne will , ephes. 1. 11. they are neither deserved by our goodnesse , nor obtained by our endeavours . thirdly , that the end why god bestoweth these gifts on any , is meerely , that within the bounds of their owne calling ( in which they are circumscribed , 1 cor. 1. 24. ) they should use them to his glory , and the edification of his church , for the manifestation of the spirit is given to every man to profit withall , 1 cor. 12. 7. christ gives none of his talents to be bound up in napkins , but expects his owne with increase : and from these considerations it is easily discernable , both what the people of god distinct from their pastors in a well ordered church , may do in this kinde , whereof we treate , and how : in generall then i assert , that for the improving of knowledge , the increasing of christian charity , for the furtherance of a strict and holy communion of that spirituall love and amity which ought to be amongst the brethren , they may of their owne accord , assemble together , to consider one another , to provoke unto love and good works , to stir up the gifts that are in them , yeilding and receiving mutuall consolation , by the fruits of their most holy faith . now because there be many vzzahs amongst us , who have an itching desire to be fingring of the arke , thinking more highly of themselves , then they ought to thinke , and like the ambitious sons of levi , taking too much upon them ; it will not be amisse , to give two cautions , deducted from the former rules : first , that they doe not , under a pretence of christian liberty and freedome of conscience , cast away all brotherly amity , and cut themselves off from the communion of the church ; christ hath not purchased a liberty for any to rent his body : they will prove at length , to be no duties of piety , which breake the sacred bonds of charity . men ought not under a pretence , of congregating themselves to serve their god , separate from their brethren , neglecting the pnblick assemblies , as was the manner of some , rebuked by the apostle , heb. 10. 25. there be peculiar blessings , and transcendent priviledges annexed to publick assemblies , which accompany not private men to their recesses ; the sharp-edged sword becomes more keene , when set on by a skilfull master of the assemblies ; and when the water of the word flowes there , the spirit of god moves upon the face thereof , to make it effectuall in our hearts : what , despise you the church of god ? 1 cor. 11. 22. secondly , as the ministry , so also ought the ministers , to have that regard , respect and obedience , which is due to their labours in that sacred calling : would we could not too frequently see more puffed up with the conceit of their owne gifts , into a contempt of the most learned and pious pastors ; these are spots in your feasts of charity , clouds without water , carried about of winds : it must doubtlesse be an evill roote , that bringeth forth such bitter fruit . wherefore let not our brethren fall into this condemnation , lest there be an evill report , raised by them that are without : but remember them who have the rule over you , who have spoken unto you the word of god , heb. 13. 7. there is no greater evidence , of the heavenly improvement , you make by your recesses , then that you obey them that are guides unto you , and submit your selves , for they watch for you soules , as they that must give an account , that they may do it with joy , and not with griefe , for that is unprofitable for you , ver. 17. let not them who despise a faithfull painfull minister in publick , flatter themselves , with hope of a blessing on their endeavours in private : let them pretend what they will , they have not an equall respect unto all gods ordinances . wherefore that the comming together in this sort , may be for the better , and not for the worse , observe these things : now for what gifts , ( that are as before freely bestowed ) whose exercise is permitted , unto such men , so assembled : i meane in a private family , or two or three met {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} in one . and first we may name the gift of prayer , whose exercise must not be exempted , from such assemblies , if any be granted : these are the times , wherein the spirit of grace and supplications , is promised to be poured out upon the jerusalem of god , zech. 12. 10. now god having bestowed the gift , and requiring the duty , his people ought not to be hindred in the performance of it : are all those precepts to pray in the scriptures , onely for our closets ? when the church was in distresse for the imprisonment of peter , there was a meeting at the house of mary the mother of john , act. 12. 12. manie were gathered together praying , saith the text : a sufficient warrant for the people of god in like cases : the churches are in no lesse distresse now , then at that time , and in some congregations the ministers are so oppressed , that publikely they dare not , in others so corrupted , that they will not pray for the prosperity of jerusalem : now truly it were a disconsolate thing , for any one of gods servants to say , during all these streights , i never joyned with any of gods children in the pouring out of my prayer in the behalfe of his church : neither can i see how this can possibly be prevented , but by the former meanes ; to which adde the councell of st. paul , speaking to themselves , in psalmes , and hymnes , and spirituall songs , making melody in their hearts unto the lord , eph. 5. 19. secondly , they may exercise the gifts of wisdom , knowledge , and understanding in the wayes of the lord ; comforting , strengthening , and incouraging each other with the same consolations , and promises , which by the benefit of the publicke ministry , they have received from the word : thus in time of distresse the prophet malachi tels us , that they that feared the lord , spake often one to another , and the lord hearkned and heard , &c. chap. 3. 16. comforting ( as it appeares ) one another in the promises of god , made unto his church , against the flourishing of the wicked , and overflowing of ungodlinesse , the persecution of tyrants , and impurity of transgressors . thirdly , they may make use of the tongue of the learned ( if given unto them ) to speake a word in season to him that is weary , isa. 50. 4. for being commanded to confesse their faults one to another , james 5. 16. they have power also to apply to them that are penitent , the promises of mercy : we should never be commanded to open our wounds , to them who have no balme , to powre into them : he shall have cold comfort , who seekes for councell from a dumbe man , so that in this , & the like cases , they may apply unto , and instruct one another in the word of god , doing it as a charitable duty , and not as out of necessary function , even as aquila , and priscilla , expounded unto apollos the word of god more perfectly then he knew it before , act. 18. 23. in summe , and not to inlarge this discourse with any more particulars , the people of god are allowed all quiet , and peaceable meanes , whereby they may help each other forward , in the knowledge of godlinesse , and the way towards heaven ; now for the close of this discourse , i will remove some objections , that i have heard godly men , and men not unlearned lay against it , out of a zeale not unlike that of joshua , for moses sake , the constitute pastors sake , to whom , though i might briefly answer , with moses , i would to god all the lords people were prophets ; i heartily wish that every one of them , had such a plentifull measure of spirituall endowments , that they might become wise unto salvation , above many of their teachers , in which vote , i make no doubt but every one will concurre with me , who have the least experimentall knowledge , what a burthen upon the shoulders , what a griefe unto the soule of a minister , knowing , and desiring to discharge his duty , is an ignorant congregation , of which , thanks to our prelates , pluralists , non-residents , homilies , service-book , and ceremonies , we have too toomany in this kingdom , the many also of our ministers in this church , taking for their directory , the laws and penalties of men , informing what they should not do , if they would avoid their panishment , and not the precepts of god , what they should as their duty do , if they meant to please him , and knowing there was no stature , whereon they might be sued , for ( pardon the expression ) the dilapidation of soules , so their owne houses were ceiled , they cared not at all though the church of god lay wast : i say , though i might thus answer , with opening my desire for the increasing of knowledge among the people ; of which , i take this to be an effectuall means , yet i will give briefe answers , to the severall objections . then this seemes to favour an allowance of licentious conventicles , which in all ▪ laces , the lawes have condemned , learned men in all ages have abhorted , as the seminaries of faction and schisme in the church of god . that ( under correction ) i conceive , that the law layeth hold of none , as peccant in such a kinde , but onely those , who have predeclared themselves to be opposers of the worship of god , in the publique assemblies of that church wherein they live : now the patronage of any such , i before re●●cted ; neither doe i conceive , that they ought at all to be allowed the benefit of private meetings , who wilfully abstaine from the publique congregations , so long as the true worship of god is held forth in them : yea , how averse i have ever beene , from that kinde of confused licentiousnesse in any church , i have somewhile since declared , in an answer ( drawne up for my owne , and some private friends satisfactions ) to the arguments of the remonstrants , in their apologie , and replies to vedelius , with other treatises , for such a liberty of prophecying , as they terme it . if then the law account onely such assemblies to be conventicles , wherein the assemblers contemne and despise the service of god in publique , i have not spoken one word in favour of them : and for that canon which was mounted against them , whether intentionally , in the first institution of it , it was moulded , and framed against anapabtists , or no , i cannot tell ? but this i am sure , that in the discharge of it , it did execution oftentimes , upon such as had christs precept and promise , to warrant their assembling , mat. 18. 19 , 20. not to contend about words , would to god that which is good , might not be persecuted into odious appellations , and called evill , when it is otherwise ; so to oppose it to the tyrannicall oppression , of the enemies of the gospell : the thing it selfe , rightly understood , can scarce be condemned of any , who envies not the salvation of soules . they that would banish the gospell from our houses , would not much care , if it were gone from our hearts ; from our houses i say , for it is all one whether these duties be performed in one family , or a collection of more ; some one is bigger then ten other ; shall their assembling to performe what is lawfull for that one , be condemned for a conventicle ? where is the law for that ? or what is there in all this more then god required of his ancient people , as i shewed before ? or must a master of a family , cease praying in his family , and instructing his children , and servants in the wayes of the lord , for feare of being counted a preacher in a tub ? things were scarcely carried with an equall hand , for the kingdom of christ , when orders came forth on the one side , to give liberty to the profane multitude to assemble themselves at heathenish sports , with bestiall exclamations , on the lords own day , and on the other , to punish them , who durst gather themselves together for prayer , or the singing of psalmes ; but i hope , through gods blessing , we shall be for ever quit of all such ecclesiasticall discipline , as must be exercised according to the interest of idle drones , whom it concerneth to see that there be none to try or examine their doctrine , or of superstitious innovators , who desire to obtrude their fancies , upon the unwary people ; whence comes it that we have such an innumerable multitude of ignorant stupid soules , unacquainted with the very principles of religion ? but from the discountenancing of these means of increasing knowledge ; by men who would not labour todo it themselves ; oh that we could see the many swearers , and drunkards , & sabbath-breakers , &c. in this nation , guilty onely of this crime ; would the kingdom were so happy , the church so holy ! men are apt , to pride themselves in their gifts , and flatter themselves in their performances , so that let them approch as nigh as the tabernacle , and you shall quickly have them encroaching upon the priests office also , and by an over-weening of their own indeavours , create themselues pastors in seperate congregations . it cannot be , but offences will come , so long as there is malice in satan , and corruption in men , there is no doubt , but there is danger of some such thing : but hereof the liberty mentioned is not the cause , but an accidentall occasion onely , no way blameable , gifts must not be condemned , because they may be abused , god-fearing-men will remember korah , knowing ( as one sayes well ) that vzzah had better ventured the falling then the fingring of the arke , they that truely love their soules , will not suffer themselves to be carried away by selfe-conceit , so farre as to help overthrow the very constitution of any church by confusion , or the flourishing of it by ignorance , both which , would certainly follow such courses ; knowledge if alone puffeth up , but joyned to charity it edifieth . but may not this be a meanes for men to vent and broach their owne private fancies unto others ? to foment and cherish errors in one another ? to give false interpretations of the word , there being no way to prevent it ? for interpreting of the word , i speake not , but applying of it being rightly interpreted ; and for the rest , would to god the complaints were not true , of those things that have for divers yeares in this church beene done publickly , and outwardly according to order : but that no inconvenience arise from hence , the care rests on them , to whom the dispensation of the word is committed , whose sedulous indeavour , to reprove and convince all unsound doctrine , not agreeing to the forme of wholesome words , is the soveraigne and onely remedy to cure , or meanes to prevent this evill . for the close of all , we may observe , that those who are most offended , and afraid , lest others should encroach upon their callings , are for the most part such , as have almost deserted it themselves , neglecting their owne imployment , when they are the busiest of mortals , in things of this world . to conclude then , for what i have delivered in this particular , i conceive that i have the judgement and practise of the whole church of scotland , ( agreeable to the word of god ) for my warrant ; witnesse that act of their assembly at edinburgh , an. 1641. wherewith the learned ruthersurd concludes his defence of their discipline , with whose words i will shut up this discourse ; our assembly also , commandeth goldy conference at all occasionall meetings , or as gods providence shall dispose , as the word of god commandeth , providing none invade the pastors office , to preach the word , who are not called thereunto by god and his church . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} finis . i have perused this discourse touching the administration of things commanded in religion , and conceive it written with much clearenesse of judgement , and moderation of spirit , and therefore do approve of it to be published in print . may 11. 1644. joseph caryl . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a90265e-650 a 1 cor. 10. 11 {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . revel. 10. 6. 1 epist. joh. 2. 18. matth. 24. 23. 1 cor. 15. 52. zanch. de fine sec . mol. acc. proph . rom. 9. 19. euseb. eccles. hist. lib. 1. cap. ambr. de sacra . lib. 4. ephes 2. 35. gen. 4. 26. cap. 5. 22. cap. 6. 8 , 9. &c. 8. 20. cap. 9. 25 , 26 , 27. cap. 18 18 , 19 cap. 19 9. cap. 28. 1 , 2. cap. 34. 26. cap. 35. 3 , 4 , 5. exo. cap. 3. 1. job cap. 1. 5. cap. 42. 8 , 9 , 10. tho : 22. ae q. 87. ad 3. jacob armin. de sacerd . ch. orat . gen. 14. 14. eccles. malignantum . august . con. faust . lib. 19. cap. 11. per incrementa temporum crevit divinae cognitionis incrementum es . regno . hom. 16. in ezek. a med. marke 4 18. aug. de civit . dei . lib 15. cap. 23. joseph . antiq. lib. 1. ca. 3. sixt. senens . bib. lib. 2. matth. 5. 6. 2 chr. 26. 19. cast him out , joh. 9. acts 13. 15. aquin. durand . tractatu de sacerdotio christi , contra armin socini : & papistas , non . dum edito . hook : eccles. polit lib 5. whitgift . ans. to the admon . rev. 1. 6. & 5. 10. & 20. 6. 1 pet. 2. 5. &c. for offering the host or their christ they pray : supra quae , propitio ac sereno vultu respirere digneris , & accepta habere ficut dignatus es munorae pueri tui justi abel , & sacrificium patriarchae nostri abrahae : with many more to that purpose . sciendum est quod aliquando prophetae sancti dum consuluntur ex magno usu prophetandi quaedam ex suo spiritu proserunt , et se hoc ex prophetiae spiritu dicere suspicantur . gregor : hom. 1. in ezek. dicebat se discernere ( nescio quo sapore quem verbis explicare non poterat ) quid interesset interdeum revelantem , & animam suam somniantem . aug. confess . the discovery of pretenders . ezek. 22. 27 , 28. &c. 8. 13. the third way . vos facite quod scriptum est , ut unodicente , omnes examinent , me ergodicente quod sentio , vos discern●…te & examinate ; orig. in josh. hom. 21. eusebius russ . eccles. 12. 9. 1. object . answ . 2. object . answer . 3. object . answer a pacifick discourse of the causes and remedies of the differences about religion, which distract the peace of christendom smith, thomas, 1638-1710. 1688 approx. 70 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 20 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2005-12 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a60563 wing s4226 estc r3425 12083596 ocm 12083596 53670 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a60563) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 53670) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 580:12) a pacifick discourse of the causes and remedies of the differences about religion, which distract the peace of christendom smith, thomas, 1638-1710. [3], 34, [2] p. printed for sam. smith ..., london : 1688. errata: p. 34. advertisement: p. 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users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng church polity. 2005-04 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2005-04 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-05 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2005-05 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion imprimatur , ●●g . 16. 1687. guil. needham . a pacifick discourse of the causes and remedies of the differences about religion , which distract the peace of christendom . london , printed for sam. smith at the prince's-arms in st. paul's church-yard . 1688. a pacifick discourse of the causes and remedies of the differences about religion which distract the peace of christendom . how much the saving doctrine of the christian religion doth conduce to the establishment of an universal peace in the world , beyond the utmost force and reach of humane wit and policy , it were to be wisht , it could be as clearly made out by fit and suitable events , and by the lives and behaviour of christians , as it is most justly demonstrable from the design of christ , and the proper and genuine ends of such an holy institution . for with what just severity doth that most perfect rule of life require of us to lay restraints upon our passions , and to stifle and suppress the first motions of them , lest our ill will and dissatisfactions break forth into enmity , and our enmity soon improve into downright malice and hatred ! how doth it give and restore to the mind a full power of reducing unto reason all those tumults and disorders , which either anger or lust are wont to raise ! with what great ●●re , even a care worthy of god , is it there provided for , that no one should deserve ill of his neighbour , nor so much as treat his enemy , as his enemy , that is , in a furious , disdainful , and hostile way , but rather forgive him , and shew him kindness and mercy : that we should be more afraid to do , or return , and revenge an injury , than undergo death it self : that we endeavour to the utmost of our power to do good to all , and in several cases have less regard to our own than anothers advantage , and sacrifice our lives and dearest interests to the publick peace ! under what terrible sanctions , and with what fulness and clearness of expression hath the divine author and establisher of the christian law enacted , that the rights of every one , whether founded in nature , or introduced by custom and the common usages of life , or by civil and municipal laws , should in no wise , and upon no pretense whatever be violated , but be preserved in their full extent and vigour ! how had the world been blessed with a solid and lasting peace , if these excellent rules had been observed , and if no unjust force had been used ; if men had religiously and conscientiously abstained from invading the right and property of others , and had been content with that state and condition of life , in which providence had placed them , without having recourse to fraud and evil arts , or to violence and arms ! thus we see christ hath consulted most wisely and effectually the peace and benefit of all mankind in general , beyond the institutions of the most famous law-givers whatever . but how more deeply and zealously concerned , and fuller of holy care was our blessed saviour for all such , as should believe in his name , and make profession of his religion in all ages of the world , that the mutual love , which the acknowledgment of the same faith , which the partaking of the same holy rites and mysteries , and which the hope of the same immortal happiness and glory to be enjoyed in the other world justly challenged , and required , and obliged them to upon so many excellent accompts , should be continually kept up , and made appear at all times by an hearty desire and readiness of doing good in their several stations , and whensoever an opportunity presented it self , by all offices of love and kindness ! he was so intent upon this necessary and essential part of christianity , in the last stage of his life , that in that divine discourse , which he made to his apostles , st. john chap. 14. just before he was to leave the world , and offer up his most pretious blood , as a just price and satisfaction for the sins of mankind , he commends nothing more to their imitation , and makes this the great characteristick of his religion : and shews , that nothing could be more dear and grateful to him , and more advantagious and beneficial to them , or could more powerfully and evidently shew their love to him , and better deserve their care , than their punctual and diligent observance of this new command , that they should love one another , as he had loved them . now this command being grounded on the greatest authority , and the highest reason , and equity imaginable , and which cannot be violated without the imputation of impiety and folly , and without great hazard of salvation , who would believe , that christians should be so unmindful either of god or themselves , as to dare to contravene it , as if they were not any longer to be known to be of that denomination , by reciprocal affection and charity , and by unity and harmony of mind , and by the most endearing acts of generous friendship , but by bitter invectives and reproaches , by siding with parties , and by disagreement and hatred one of another ? it is a long time since , that the catholick church of christ hath felt the sad effects and consequences of this foolish and mad perfidiousness , even almost soon after she was blest with peace , and freed from the horrid butcheries and cruel persecutions of the heathen roman emperours , ( who made it their business to keep up their idolatrous worship , with all the arts of subtilty and furious rage , and exterminate the very name of christian out of the world ) and hath been forced to endure and suffer far worse things from her own children , hurried on with the excesses of mad zeal , and all the bitterness of enraged passion : by reason of which unchristian misbehaviour she soon perceived , that she had but little reason comparatively to complain of the proceedings of nero , decius , diocletian , and the rest of her merciless persecutors . for this was the sad case and temper of those times , that they , whom fear , and modesty , and a due regard to , and reverence of the name of christianity , and whom common dangers and sufferings had endeared to each other , to the great astonishment of their enemies , now when they no longer stood in awe of the tribunals of the gentile magistrates , and of the pursuit and arrest of soldiers and officers of the civil courts ; when they were no longer in danger of being dragged to prison , or condemned to crosses , stakes , gibbets , and wild beasts in their amphitheaters ; when by the protection of the civil power they might profess christianity with all possible security , the whole empire becoming christian , and embracing that faith , which it had for some ages before endeavoured with so much fury and madness to root up ; these very persons , abusing this wonderful change , that god had brought about , when they had no enemies to exercise their faith and their patience , soon grew peevish , and froward , and insolent towards one another . the doctrine of faith , as it is proposed in the holy gospels , was slighted and carelesly past over , and fierce contests arose about matters of opinion and ceremony , as if nothing less than eternal salvation had been concerned in these niceties ; whence charity being wholly forgot and lost in these disputes , whilst each strove , not so much for truth as victory , evil suspicions and animosities took place , and opened a wide gap for schism to enter . hereupon altar was erected against altar , and contrary episcopal sees established in the same cities ; and furious and seditious preachers sounded in the pulpit an alarum to a holy war , as if they had been ready to engage with the professed enemies of christ in defence of the chief articles of religion . hence they first lookt upon it as a piece of becoming zeal , and as a mark of godliness to abstain from all external communion with each other : as if the danger and the guilt had been less to have been present at the heathen and jewish assemblies : afterwards followed odious crimes laid to each others charge , and most abusive and execrable titles and appellations , as if there had been a total apostasy and defection from the christian faith ; from which most unjust and scandalous censures there arose at last an irreconcileable enmity and hatred , which no art , no compliance in other matters , whilst these evil and perverse opinions were rooted in their minds , could be able to remove or mollify . but alas ! so far are these dreadful and fatal heats , with which the church for so many ages has been enflamed , from being abated , that upon the addition of fresh matter they have burst out with greater violence , which is almost irresistible . who is there so far forsaken and devoid of good nature , mercy , and pity , who is not filled with horror , when he reflects upon those horrid tumults and distractions , with which christendom is torn asunder at this very day ? i do not mean those distractions the natural effects of war , wherein thousands are daily sacrificed to ambition and other brutal passions , but such , as different opinions about matters of religion have brought upon the world , in which no mercy and charity are shewed to the souls of the adverse party , which , as far as furious zeal takes place , are consigned over to hell by peremptory sentences of excommunication : it being accounted a very godly and justifiable pretension , to think and judge amiss of those , who differ from them in lesser matters . in the mean time , whilst every one doth foolishly indulge to his ambition , same , and wit ; whilst they most partially favour that side , which either chance has cast them upon , or prejudice , education , and interest have recommended to their choice ; whilst the love of the world , and a fear arising thence , lest there should be any abatement and diminution of their secular pomp and advantage , shut out truth ; and whilst perversness and obstinacy of mind set a bar against mutual forbearance and condescension : altho out of modesty each may pretend to wish , that an happy end were put to these disputes , and endeavour with great earnestness to wipe off the envy of such a charge : yet it is too too evident , that they are kept up and maintained by pride and peevishness and base interest , whilst they do not follow , according to the excellent and wise advice of st. paul , after the things which make for peace , and things wherewith one may edify another . romans 14. 19. it is the design of this paper briefly to enquire , first into the reasons and causes of these differences arising about religion , which are still maintained with so great heat , to the great scandal of so holy and venerable a profession , and how it comes to pass , that the mild , the sweet , the merciful temper and genius , which christianity inspires her true votaries with , seems utterly lost , amidst the noise and fury of those hot debates , that prevail between parties of different communions : and then , secondly ; into the proper remedies of these horrid confusions and distractions , and see if there be any just reason and ground to hope for the restoring of ecclesiastical peace and unity to the divided countries of christendom . as to what concerns the first part of my enquiry , i shall comprehend the original and causes of the divisions among christians , and which hinder them from uniting in the same common worship and service of god , under these four following heads ; all others being of lesser moment , or else easily reducible to one of them . the first and principal is this , a manifest and great departure from the simplicity of faith . in the first beginnings of christianity , when the apostles , every of them in their distinct provinces , declared to the world the revelation of god our saviour , it was not , as to what concerns the doctrine of faith , any great matter of difficulty , nor required any great study or deep research to be a christian. the mysteries of it , as to their number , were but few , as is evident from the creed , which contains a brief form of words , clearly and nakedly proposed without any perplexity or ambiguity of expression ; so that although the matter of some of them do transcend the utmost strength and force of humane understanding , and cannot be comprehended by the most sublime and subtle wit whatever : yet persons of the meanest capacities and most ordinary understanding cannot complain , that they were neglected . now this doctrine of faith was at first one & the same every where , even in the most distant countries , which had no commerce one with another . at that time they believed no otherwise at rome , ephesus , alexandria , or corinth , than at jerusalem . the apostles being guided by the same infallible spirit , taught the same necessary articles of faith every where : whence arose that admirable concent and harmony of doctrine , as if that great work of the conversion of the world to the faith of christ had not been done apart , but had been jointly carried on by the common advice and direction of the college of apostles remaining in a fixed place . for then those here in britain agreed in judgment with those who were in india , when there was no passage through the great and vast ocean known , or so much as attempted : the polarity of the magnet being then unknown and undiscovered : and the like is to be said of the other parts of the world , as irenaeus shews in his first book against heresies chap. 3. where being about to evince the truth of the catholick faith from the agreement of so many nations , differing in language , and manners , and customs of living , so many seas running between , he adds , that there is the same force of tradition , notwithstanding this great variety of language , and that the churches in germany , spain , gaule , in the east , in egypt and lybia neither believed nor delivered down contrary doctrines : but as the sun , the creature of god , is one and the same in the universe , so the light and doctrine of truth shines every where , and enlightens all men , who are willing to come to the knowledge of it . so that all being admitted by the sacrament of baptism to the profession of the same faith , if chance or business , or curiosity of travelling brought christians of different nations together , upon the first acknowledgement of this faith , which shewed , that they were christians , they run into each others embraces , and found , that they agreed in the same points of religion , as if they had been bred up under the same masters , and had spent their whole time together . and indeed it could scarce be otherwise through the piety , innocence , zeal , and constancy of those times , not as if there were no opinions started , about which they might have different sentiments ( for that in such great variety and disproportion of understanding and temper was scarce possible ) but they held fast to the apostolical doctrine and tradition : and provided , that their faith in christ was entire and orthodox , in lesser matters liberty of judgment was allowed without censure . no one was oppressed with unjust suspicions and prejudices : they shunned not such an ones company , as if he had been excommunicated , but received and embraced him as a brother and fellow christian. the holy apostles , who by their unwearied diligence and preaching had form'd and establisht churches every where , that they might make just provisions for the christians of all ages after their decease , thought it highly concerned them to commit to writing the doctrine of faith , which they had taught ; that in case any doubt should arise in aftertimes , and new doctrines should be introduced by wanton and over curious wits , desirous and over apt to innovate in matters of religion under a pretense of apostolical tradition , these infallible oracles might be consulted , as the measure and standard of divine truth . accordingly to these sacred writings they had recourse as to the only rule of faith : they derived all the streams of saving truth from these uncorrupt springs ; here was the tryal , whether any one was sound or reprobate concerning the faith : so the great truths of religion were preserved entire , there was no trouble given to any one upon the accompt of any subtle or nice questions . all equally enjoyed the same right of communion ; they were present at the same holy offices of religion with a most agreeable piety ; they all were partakers of the same holy sacrament ; from which if any were by the strict discipline of the church debarred , it was wholly to be imputed to the miscarriages of life , whereof they were guilty , which the church desired to amend and make them sensible of by this severe course and method . but when the pertinaciousness of hereticks , relying upon the quirks and subtilty of unsound wit , would in no wise acquiesce in scriptural propositions of faith ; when with a sacrilegious boldness they would break into the very secrets of heaven , which were above the capacity of humane understanding fully to make out and comprehend ; when despising and rejecting the revelations of scripture , they disclaimed the profession and acknowledgment of the truths and mysteries of the christian religion ; and when by their evil designs , arts , and practices , the weaker sort of christians , whom they had infected with their corrupt and poisonous doctrine , were drawn away from the profession of the true faith ; it then became necessary and most worthy the serious thoughts and care of constantine the great , and the other pious emperors , to call general councils , in order to prevent those disturbances and breaches of the churches peace , which were likely to arise from the change and alteration of faith : and all the industry of those great men , who were summoned to attend and assist at those solemn and venerable assemblies , was laid out and imployed , not in inventing and making new articles , but in interpreting and explaining the old ones : for both their zeal and piety forbad , that they should give way to any innovation , or suffer the ancient catholick faith , which was at first delivered , to be antiquated , and the profession of it disused . for to use the words of a vincentius lirinensis , what other thing has the church of christ designed and effected by the decrees of councils , but that that which was before simply believed , might now be believed with greater diligence : that , which before was more rarely and gently preached , might now be preached with greater zeal and concern : and that , which was held and maintained more securely , might now be studied and maintained with greater care and solicitude ? so that to stop the mouth of heresy , and to give it its deaths wound , those heroes , mostly and chiefly relying upon the authority of the sacred scripture , and calling in to their aid and assistance the constant practice and consent of the orthodox christians of the preceding ages , and antient and catholick tradition , made a most excellent provision for the security of the christian faith , which arius , macedonius , nestorius , and the other infamous haeresiarchs had with their false glosses perverted , by laying down short forms and professions of faith : that so the several mysteries of it , upon the belief of which the true religion and the happiness of its professors depend , might be better and more easily admitted and understood . by this test the catholick church distinguished those of her communion from the hereticks , and by this unity of faith united their hearts in love and affection ; all who made profession of her doctrine , in what part of the world soever they were , being acknowledged and received for friends , for brethren , for catholicks . for there was no need of any other character or recommendation : and hence that pious and laudable custom and practice of keeping up and maintaining this ecclesiastical communion by the epistolae formatae , which were usually sent from one bishop to another ( nor did the bishop of rome exempt himself ) upon their instalment , had their original : nor was there any other proof exacted or demanded of their retaining the profession of the true christian faith , than a firm and hearty assent to those antient creeds . how happy it had been for the catholick church , if the terms of communion had continued thus enlarged , the meanest capacity may easily be sensible of ; for most assuredly , if the antient faith , the profession of which has saved so many myriads of christians , had been preserved uncorrupt and entire from the encumbrance and addition of novel opinions , which owe their original and propagation to meer phantasy , and superstition , and secular interest ; and if all , who acknowledge that faith , might have been present at the publick worship and service of god upon the same conditions , as in the first ages , according to the rules established by the supream ecclesiastical authority ; there had not been that great confusion every where in the world , as now there is . by this just and easy method , schism might have been prevented , and a liberty of judgment being allowed in matters no way fundamental and essential to faith , an eternal peace had been established . of the violation of which we justly accuse the roman church , which , having wholly neglected and laid aside the rules of primitive antiquity , has , as mistress of the faith of all christians , obtruded new articles , under the specious pretense and title of declaration , upon their consciences and understandings . but what injustice , what arbitrary proceeding , what tyranny is this , that the faith of the christian world should depend upon the humor and pleasure of the roman court , and the opinions of the schoolmen , without any regard to scripture and antiquity : and that all other churches should be excommunicated , unless they enslave themselves to her tenents , and that all should be branded with the odious name of schismatick and heretick , who dare maintain and defend their rights against the imposition of their novelties ! let the true faith be examined by the rule of scripture : let the doctrine of the first times be consulted in the proof and tryal of it : let the antient canons be restored : let no force be put upon the conscience ; and let all unjust conditions cease , and be for ever abrogated ; the peace of the church will then return , and we may hope to see good days in christendom . which suggests to me an other hindrance of ecclesiastical peace and unity , which ariseth hence , 2. that several opinions and tenents , which without prejudice to the true faith , we may be ignorant of , are too highly valued and esteemed , and by an overhasty and inconsiderate zeal are lookt upon as fundamental points , necessary to salvation . the apostle saint paul takes a particular and wise care in the 14th chapter of the epistle to the romans , lest they , who agreed in the faith of the eternal son of god , the true messias and redeemer of mankind , and were called by his blessed name , should upon some little differences in trivial matters , break out into hatred and ill will one to another . for there was not the same opinion among them about the ceasing of the mosaical institutions . they who had arrived to a greater degree of faith and maturity of judgment , very much rejoyced in their happy change and condition of life , that they were delivered from the grievous burden of the jewish rites and ceremonies , whilst others , who were not so well instructed and satisfied in the privileges and liberties of the christian religion , very fiercely contended , that no one , at least no jew , was exempt and freed from those observances . hence proceeded bitter and severe censures one against another , as transgressors of the divine law ; and hereupon they entertained those unjust opinions of one anothers condition as to the other world , as if one heaven could not hold two such contrary parties . but what says the apostle to all this ? he plainly shews , that this sharp , censorious , and fierce temper of mind is most displeasing to him , as being most disagreeable to the very rules of christianity : that in an affair of so slight a nature , no one runs the hazard of his salvation ; that the strong were herein to indulge and yield somewhat to the weak in faith , who were not so fully enlightned , as they were ; that they who thought that there was an obligation still lying upon them to observe the law of moses , had not upon this accompt abjured the faith of christ , and that they , who on the contrary thought that there was no obligation lying upon them , had not been guilty of the breach of a divine law : that they were not to abstain from communicating with each other : that in these matters a liberty of judgment was not to be denyed , so they had a right faith in christ ; that this common faith , in which both parties agreed , was a sufficient ground of christian communion : and lastly , that they were to be more studious of peace and mutual edification , than of useless controversies , which contributed little or nothing to the advancement of christianity , or to their own mutual benefit and advantage , or to the encrease of piety , and good manners . with what greater modesty and moderation had such , as having laid aside all thoughts of peace for the sake of opinions of far lesser moment , have gone about to make divisions in the catholick church , have carryed themselves , if they had imitated this apostle in this his most exemplary meekness and lenity ! hast thou faith ? sayes this wise and excellent person ; have it to thy self before god. let every one enjoy his own private opinions , of which sort there may be many , for the sake of which we cannot , without the highest injustice , give way to furious passion and strife : at least , if they cannot retain them in their breasts , but have an itch of venting them ; let them not impose them upon others , as oracles , as if all , who do not assent to them , were in a deplorable condition . the case is the same about particular churches , as about private men : whilst each retains the entire doctrine of the catholick church , let them make what laws , articles , and constitutions they shall think fit , to oblige their own members to uniformity ; this certainly being a privilege , which is essential to every national church in order to its better establishment . if these controversies concerning private and particular opinions had been confined to the schools , with a salvo to conscience and free judgment , by the fierce disputants on either side , the church might have received no prejudice and damage by them , and have been wholly uninterested in their quarrels . for this is to be allowed and permitted to humane wit , to be naturally prying into secrets and mysteries , and mostly to please it self in new speculations : and this it may do lawfully enough , so it doth not pass those due boundaries , which scripture , the creeds of the catholick church , and sober reason have set and fixt . let the schoolmen , over-run with the itch of curiosity , wrangle eternally , if they please ; seeing they not onely delight in it , but make it their trade and business to perplex and entangle the most obvious truths : although it is very apparent , that in these eager and sharp contentions , they aim more at victory and reputation than at truth : and let them enjoy the fame and credit of being accounted great sophisters and wits : let them flatter themselves , that they can explain the most difficult problem , and satisfy the most confounding objection with their nice and subtil distinctions : let them enjoy their phansy or their judgment , without the least disturbance and censure : seeing some are so in love with their errors , that they hate to be better instructed ; and to go about to convince them , is the way to disoblige them : provided all this be done as a tryal of wit , and as an exercise of a plodding brain . i add further , let any particular church , to prevent all disputes , which may have an influence upon its peace , and which , by the cunning contrivance of designing men , may introduce schism and disorder , make a body of articles and canons to be subscribed by all , who are entrusted with the administration of holy things , as an instrument of peace and concord : and where they pretend to state and determine controversial points , let them be esteemed by those of that church never so pious , never so credible , never so probable , no harm can possibly arise , so long as the summary of the christian doctrine is not violated ; so long as they are not ranked with the fundamental articles of faith ; so long as they do not impose them upon other churches , who are no way subject to a forraign jurisdiction ; much less upon the whole body of christians in all the parts of the universe , under the pretence of apostolical authority , and under the heavy penalty of an anathema . but that there should be no difference put between the novel opinions of the schoolmen , and the oracles of scripture ; that the same deference and honour should be paid to humane authority , very obnoxious to passion and error , which only infallible truth can justly challenge ; that the phansies of private men , as they were at first , should , many ages after , by a pretended church-power , be reckoned as fundamentals : and lastly , that we should be obliged to profess our assent to rash sanctions and definitions , which a corrupt part of the church for secular ends and advantages hath decreed and established ; this , this is that , which scandalizeth christendom , and obstructs its peace . this was the just complaint of the former century , which made way for the reformation , and which a conviction of the truth and reasonableness of it extorted from the mouths of several romanists , who yet had not the courage to relinquish the communion of that church , though confessedly corrupt in matter of doctrine , discipline , and worship . this was the trouble and heart-breaking of several excellently learned and pious persons in those times , and doth still distract the minds of all good men , even of considering romanists , not infatuated with superstition and furious bigotry , who pray for the restoration of catholick unity among all christians . but such a schism , so detestable , so deplorable , and so big with dismal effects , consequences , and events , has been brought into the church by corrupt interest , by base and disingenuous artifice and subtilty , and by the highest immodesty , and by downright force and violence , and this , confirmed by the free , holy , oecumenical council of trent , as they call it , when god knows it was neither free , nor holy , nor oecumenical , as that all hope of reconciliation among the different professions and perswasions of christians is taken away , unless the authors of this schism shall offer terms of an accommodation fit to be accepted , that is , by annulling or suspending for ever the authority of the tridentine council , which is a thing not to be expected from them , or rather , unless the princes of the roman communion shall force the pope to call another council , and in case of refusal , shall assemble several bishops and doctors of their respective countries to debate the controversies , which are now on foot , and to determine them by scripture , primitive antiquity , and apostolical tradition . it will yield just matter of astonishment to the serious reader to consider , that the institution of the holy sacrament of the eucharist , which christ left to his church in remembrance of his passion and death , and for a pledge of his love , and as a mark and token of the mutual love of christians , and of their faith in him crucified : whom that sacrament does truly and efficaciously represent and exhibit , should by the subtilty of the devil , and the perverse disputings of interested persons , be so far abused and perverted , that they should hence take occasion of envying eternal salvation , purchased by his precious bloud , and of denying it too , as much as in them lyes , to such , as are partakers of those holy mysteries according to his original institution . for what other reason can be alledged for that fury , which under the notion and pretext of zeal , has taken up arms ; as if the cause of god were concerned in it , and has brought that great confusion upon the world , unless because they have different notions and sentiments about this tremendous mystery , and disagree somewhat in their explications of it ? what great quantity of christian bloud has been spilt by an enraged party upon the accompt of these unhappy sacramentary quarrels , which have ended in bloudy wars and massacres ! what great havock and wast have they made , both by fire and sword , of thousands of their fellow christians , beyond the fury and madness of the heathen persecutions , who were in all other points innocent , and were therefore burnt , and had their throats cut , only for this one great crime , because they would not admit , believe , and acknowledge , contrary to scripture , reason , sense , and experience , the portentous and extravagant fiction of transubstantiation ! there is no christian , but believes christ to be really and truly , that is , spiritually , and to all the real effects and benefits of his passion and death , and by the efficacy of his grace and spirit , present under the sacred symbols , which yet retain their true and natural substance , as well as qualities , and that he receives the mystical body of christ after the consecration , according to the words of the institution , upon which the faith of all christians is founded , and what has been professed in all ages , and justly esteemed the badge of christian communion by all sober persons , whose judgments have not been perverted by passion and unjust prejudice . if every one , without any curious enquiry into this mystery , had contented himself with the plain and simple belief of it , and with all due care had intended the worthy partaking of it ; if the church of rome had not first of all in the lateran council , and after that in the council of trent , rashly determined the manner of the presence of christ in the sacrament : if the lutherans and others had onely determined for themselves , without prescribing to , or condemning others ; and if an explicite belief of this monstrous opinion had not been made a necessary term and condition of communion ; how might we have adored before the same altars , ( from which we are now excluded as profane , unworthy and excommunicate persons ; and from which we have reason to abstain and fly , as the primitive christians did from the sacrifices of idolaters ) and have been present at the most solemn services of religion with the same zeal , to the great advantage of christian charity and devotion . no priest would then have been afraid to admit any devout lay-person , approaching the holy sacrament with due preparation ; and no lay-person would then also have been afraid to receive it from the hand of such a priest , rightly ordained and constituted . the like may be said of many other points of religion , which without any prejudice to the doctrine of faith , are disputed and controverted : but whilst , all other interpretations and expositions being laid aside , men boldly decree and determine this or that opinion to be de fide ; whilst the niceties of the schoolmen , and the positions of contentious and polemical theology , which idle men , relying too much upon their subtil wit , and false and sophistical way of arguing , have introduced , are in such esteem and vogue with some , as to be lookt upon , as necessary appendages of the christian religion ; and whilst articles of faith , which were altogether unknown to the first ages , are hugely encreased and multiplied , as is too too manifest from the present state and condition of the roman church , and the obscure confessions of other churches ; what other effect can we expect should proceed from this mighty industry and zeal , but that christendom being divided into so many parties and factions , all just hope of union should be wholly removed and taken away , when the effecting of it hereby seems to be rendred morally impossible ? 3. the arrogant pretensions of the popes unbounded power contributes not a little to the heightning and augmenting the difference in christendom . it does not seem at this day to comport with the greatness of the roman church , to be content to be included within the antient limits of the suburbicary regions . for not satisfied with a primacy of order , or with her antient patriarchate , ( to whose jurisdiction the britannick churches were not of right subject ) or with her other privileges , conferred upon her out of a respect to the imperial city ; as if the spirit of the old romans were infused into her , she proudly affects an empire over the whole body of christians throughout the world . if the other patriachs , who owe that honour and dignity to the same original , the favour of princes , and the decrees and constitutions of general councils ( in the assignment of which , as it is most evident from the 28th canon of the council of chalcedon , they had onely a regard to the privileges and dignities of cities , to which the ecclesiastical government was accommodated ) defend their rights and liberties against the attempts and encroachments of the bishop of rome ; if they will not submit to a forraign yoke ; unless they with a base and a most unbecoming flattery adore rome , as their mistress and patroness , and obey her decrees and orders ; presently there is an end of them : they are arraigned and accused as guilty of schism ; nor shall they be thought worthy of the honour and favour of her communion . when some time after the empire was divided into east and west , there seemed to be a kind of agreement at least , and a fair and amicable correspondence kept up , the ambition and pride of the bishops of rome , who would needs busy and interest themselves in the affairs of the greek church , spoiled all . for to no other cause can the original of that sad and fatal separation be ascribed , altho it was afterward heightned , and the wound festered more and more , when the article of the procession of the holy spirit from the son was added to the constantinopolitan creed , without ever so much as consulting the oriental bishops , who upon the knowledge of it soon after vehemently opposed it ; justly alledging , that it was utterly unlawful so to do , it being expresly against the 7th canon of the council of ephesus . but things were more securely advanced and carryed on in the western empire , by the artifice and policy of the popes of rome : for the opposition , which was made now and then by two or three honest and stout men , to their tyrannical and arbitrary proceedings , signified little or nothing , and was run down with noise , violence , and power . when then they had no regard to the canons of antient councils , by which the catholick church was formerly governed ; when they had trodden under their feet all divine and humane law and right ; when they had arrogated to themselves the disposition of all church-affairs , and had usurpt a power over all christians ; and nothing for the future was to be admitted and believed , but what was agreeable to the bulls and decrees of the roman court ; can any one wonder , when things were brought to this pass , that christendom should at last awaken from its deep lethargy , and grown sensible of the miserable slavery of its condition , should complain of the exercise of this usurped , unjust , and tyrannical power , and seriously think of recovering its true , antient , original ( hristian liberty ? in the mean time , what did they at rome ? did they enter upon serious counsels and resolutions honestly and effectually to satisfy the requests and demands of kings , princes , and republicks concerning a reformation , which were continually sent thither by their ambassadors and agents ? did they restore their ill-gotten goods , which they had seized upon most unjustly , and as unjustly had detained by force and violence , i mean , the common rights and privileges , belonging to the bishops ; and to all christian people ? nothing less : they exclaim , they rage , they are furious and mad , and let fly their thunderbolts of excommunication from the vatican hill , and devote men to hell and damnation , only for this unpardonable fault , because they were at last quite tyred with , and weary of the slavery , which they had laboured under for so many years . this is that , which troubles and grieves them now at rome , and which they are endeavouring with so much art and policy to effect and bring about ; and this is that , which unless god shall vouchsafe to avert the omen , and open the eyes of all such , who are deluded by the witchcrafts and sorcery of rome , to forsake her communion , which is so dangerous to their salvation , will make the schism irreconcileable and eternal . for , as things stand at present , there can be no peace and accommodation with rome , unless we part with our liberties , and our laws , and our consciences , and our religion , the true christian religion , and every thing , which is dear to us : nor yet , such is the restlesness of that party , and especially of the jesuits , that if the counsels of such fiery bigots may prevail , we shall never be at quiet , unless we submit our necks once more most stupidly to the roman yoke , which our popish ancestors , even both before and after they were enlightned with the knowledge of the truths of god , threw off with great indignation , as not being able to bear it . lastly , we are convinced by sad experience , that these differences about religion , which have divided christendom into so many sects , to the great disturbance of its peace and quiet , owe no small part of their original to the great decay of true solid piety through idleness and carelesness , and to the departure from the most holy rules of living , which christ our blessed lord and master has prescribed us , which is every where so visible . i need not here labour in the proof of this by heaping up arguments , when the fact is so evident ; nor shall i tragically exclaim or inveigh against the unmanly softness , the luxury , the prophaneness , the wickedness of the age , and the evil lives of christians ; this reflexion deserving our sighs and tears rather than satyre and invective . i do not here mean so much those , whose wicked & corrupt principles and most scandalous lives sufficiently shew , that they have no sense of any religion , but i chiefly intend such , as make a fair shew of christianity ; how little of true piety is found about them ! but how much of superstition , and immoderate zeal for the peculiar tenents of their sect , by which they would be distinguished one from another ! in compliance of the genius of the age , which is concerned more for ingenuity , and learning , & the inventing new hypotheses , and satisfying curious enquiries into nature , than for the practices of moral honesty and christian vertue , and how we may foyl and baffle our adversaries by our wit , rather than adorn our holy profession with suitable lives . but alas ! by how much less pious we are , so by degrees we become more and more censorious and uncharitable . we bestow all our zeal in lesser matters , and lay the great stress of our duty upon it , being little solicitous about the ornaments of a christian life , as if by this fallacious and flattering kind of artifice we would compound with god for the want of them . it is in vain to complain of , and cry out upon the wickedness of the times , when we our selves are to blame , that they are no better , and if we would our selves , we might make them so . for if the true christian piety , and strict discipline , and integrity of manners , were but once restored ; and if we throughly minded the great duties of christianity , which consist in unfeigned devotion and holiness , in charity , and meekness , and patience , and forbids all bitterness , and wrath , and evil speaking , and hatred , and malice , and abstracts from all niceties and subtilities of disputation , and quarrels about scholastick notions and opinions , in which the essence of faith is no way interested ; it will be no vain , idle , or ill-grounded expectation , that we might live to see the different parties of christendom united , and ecclesiastical peace and unity restored . but whilst ill manners and a careless way of living prevail ; whilst charity and modesty are laid aside , and men grow over-wise and conceited in their opinions , and despise all others of a contrary judgment ; whilst to be of a party , and to maintain private phansies with fierceness and heat , is accounted a good argument of their being godly ; whilst being too much concerned for the externals of religion , and controversial points , we over-look our duty , and growing secure and careless , seem to have little or no regard to what christ and his apostles command us to look after with all possible care and diligence , and make our most serious study and business ; who can be so void of sense or good nature , as not to observe with grief and sorrow of mind , that by this ill imployed industry , and by these furious quarrels , christianity suffers , and that , new prejudices arising continually , the evil distemper grows worse and worse , and will soon become desperate and incurable ? no serious and honest reader can be so unjust , as to imagine , that i plead for a toleration of vile sects and opinions , or that i think it a matter of meer indifference , to what communion of christians we betake and joyn our selves . we of the church of england are obliged to render unfeigned and hearty thanks to almighty god , for his great mercy and goodness towards us , that he has made us members of such an eminently pure and apostolical part and branch of the catholick church ; that we were born and baptized , and live in the communion of a church , whose doctrine is truly christian and catholick ; government primitive and apostolical ; and liturgy conformable to the antient standard , and agreeable to the uses of true devotion , without the least mixture of superstition and foppery ; and where the sacraments are administred according to christs holy institution : and where all things necessary to make a true orthodox catholick christian , and to render him eternally happy in the other world , are to be found and met with . it highly becomes us in point of duty to be very sensible of this great blessing : and it ought to be the great comfort of our lives and deaths too : yet i cannot but oppose to all unjust censure that expostulation of saint paul , romans 14. 4. who art thou that judgest another mans servant ? to his own master he standeth or falleth : yea he shall be holden up : for god is able to make him stand : and will further add , that i doubt not in the least , but that at the dreadful day of judgment a virtuous , honest , and sober life will be more esteemed by christ himself , than niceness of knowledge and opinion , be it never so true ; that no one who has adorned his christian profession with an agreeable conversation ; notwithstanding his errors and misperswasions , if they be not aggravated and made pernicious by obstinacy of mind , and a wilful resisting and refusing the truth , will be rejected , and that those who now out of a furious zeal , ( if yet there be any who do this , besides some of the fiery men of the church of rome , who arrogantly call themselves religious , and their credulous & infatuated proselytes ) deny or scarse own salvation possible to others , who are not of their communion : which is a most unwarrantable , impudent , scandalously false , and unchristian opinion , the wickedness of which cannot be sufficiently aggravated : of what party of men soever , and are thus uncharitable one to another , if an holy and virtuous life be superstructed upon the foundation of faith , in which they all agree , by the grace and mercy of god , and the all-sufficient merits and satisfaction of christ , will be happy hereafter for ever in heaven . hitherto of the causes of those quarrels about religion which distract the quiet and peace of christendom . let us now briefly consider the remedies . in general , it is most evident , that all endeavours about composing these differences , are in vain and to no purpose , and that we cannot entertain the least ground of hope , to attain to the unity of the primitive church , unless all parties relax their censures , which have hitherto excluded love and charity , and make use of the same means in restoring it , as the christians of the first times did in retaining it . if with composed and settled minds and affections we would agree in this excellent method , we have no reason to despair , but that the pacifick counsels and pious endeavours of honest men , who labour after the blessed work of union and reconciliation among christians , might be very successful . now the means of obtaining this ecclestastical peace , consist in the removal of the causes above-mentioned , which have obstructed it , and are these . whereof the first is , that the antient , simple , christian faith , as it is contained in the scriptures , summed up in the creeds of general councils , and received in all the churches of christ , be only urged as necessary to be believed in order to salvation . for seeing that this common faith was made use of by the catholick church , as a tye and bond of holy communion ; seeing the catechumens , after praevious instruction , upon their profession of this faith , no other condition being exacted , were admitted to baptism , and had a right to partake of the holy mysteries of the eucharist ; seeing that in the profession of the same faith , all true christians do fully agree ; ( for the socinians , who go about to overthrow the whole frame of the christian doctrine , by arrogant presumptions of false reasonings , and by sophistical arguments , and by their blasphemies against christ , the eternal son of god , and turn the grace of god into the lasciviousness of humane wit , and deny the divinity of our saviour , are not to be honoured with this name : ) why should not the foundation and ground-work of ecclesiastical peace and unity , after the example and practice of the primitive church , be laid in the same faith ? with what pretense of reason ought any opinion , after the first preaching and establishment of the faith all the world over , after the conveyance of it down to so many ages , be superadded as a necessary point of faith , which was unknown to all antiquity ? by what right can such a number of articles be obtruded upon the understandings and consciences of christians , and especially such , as have been invented and propagated for base and secular interests and advantages , and to maintain worldly grandeur and reputation ? that christians do so little agree in some of their sentiments about religion , as if there were not the same rule of faith , equally and under the same obligation proposed to all ; this must not be imputed either to our b. saviour , or his apostles , or to the nature of his religion , which proposes in easy terms and propositions , to the most ordinary and less intelligent christians , enough to conduce to their obtaining eternal salvation , but to certain fiery zealots , who venting their beloved tenents and notions for oracles , impose them upon others under direful curses and anathema's . what fuller proof and argument can there be of this surious zeal , than what the romanists are guilty of , in inveighing against us , as they do most falsly and unjustly , for not receiving several tenents , which are but of a few ages standing , and which are destitute of all authority , whether of scripture or antiquity ? but this is our comfort , ( if yet it be any comfort to persons in distress , to have any to share with them in it ) we shall not be condemned alone : but at the same time they condemn us , they must draw into the guilt of the same heresy , as they are pleased most civilly to word it , all such , as have a true and just veneration of uncorrupt antiquity : and for this reason among others , reject the creed of pope pius the fourth . but if we are to think well of the condition of those , who in the first ages preserved the integrity and purity of the christian faith with creeds , and other holy writings , as so many sacred amulets and preservatives against the infection and poison of heresy truly so called ; who were ambitious of dying , and lost their lives for the profession of that faith , and embraced the flames rather than dissemble or disown it ; if the primitive saints and martyrs be happy and blessed ; we need not fear the noise of their thunder , which can do no execution upon us , and which are meer bug-bears to affright persons of weak and childish phansies : we tread in the steps of those holy saints and martyrs ; we are safe , we are secure ; provided we copy out their lives , and imitate those glorious examples they have set up of consummate piety as well as profess the same faith . wherever the christians were dispersed , whether in the patriarchate of rome , or alexandria , or any other ; by virtue of this profession of faith , they were received into communion and admitted to the common rights of religion , not denying or envying to each other salvation in the world to come , but by joint exercises of devotion mutually promoting and advancing it : nay their , charity was so great , that notwithstanding the most unchristian censures and unjust schism of the donatists , they lookt upon them as brethren still , though horribly perverted by a false and ignorant zeal to make a separation from them ; nay they did not pass a damnatory sentence upon a the arians , nor altogether despair of their s●●●ation , but left them to stand or fall to their own master . 2. upon and after a ready acknowledgment of the articles of faith , without which no one can pretend to be a christian , let a liberty of judging in other less material points of doctrine be allowed and indulged : for variety of opinions does no more dissolve the unity of faith , than variety of rites and ceremonies . how had that wide wound , which schism has made in the body of the church , been long since closed and perfectly healed , if this soveraign medicine had been applyed , and if they had not proceeded so dogmatically and boldly , by confessions of faith , and by new and unheard of canons to determine points uncertain and doubtful ! by which way of procedure the minds of christians are oppressed , and the doctrine of faith rendred perplext and obscure by scholastick subtilties and niceties . it were to be wisht indeed , that all christians , and especially those , who , for most just and weighty and indispensable reasons and motives , have relinquished the roman communion , could agree in a general systeme of theological opinions : but because this is not to be hoped for , considering the different apprehensions , tempers , inclinations , interests , judgments , way of education , method of study and arguing , and interpreting scripture , and consequently there not being the same light of knowledge , the same force and sharpness of wit and understanding , the same industry and impartiality ; why should we not for peace and quiet sake bear with others , who , though they may differ from us in some particulars , agree with us in fundamentals , as they are contained in easy texts of scripture , and in the ancient creeds , with all christian charity , and compassion , and moderation ? let that evil custom of reviling , which is almost become habitual and natural , and that odious calling of names and branding private notions with ill characters , if they may admit of a more favourable interpretation , without prejudice to the essential truths of the gospel , for ever cease , and be totally laid aside . for by this mutual indulgence and condescension , which all lovers of peace cannot but acknowledge to be most fit and equitable , there is no one whatever , be his capacity never so mean and dull , but he will foresee and presage , that a mighty benefit would redound to christendom , and a happy stop would be put to the disorders and confusions of it . 3. let the antient canons about church-government be restored to their full vigour , and every national church enjoy its just rights , and the bishop of rome be reduced to his original jurisdiction , and all pretensions to an oecumenical power for ever be abolished and annulled . for the romanists , in the height of all their pride and usurpations , which have violated the peace of the church , of which they cannot but be convinced in their consciences , may remember , that communion with their church was never held necessary , but onely , as it was a part , and branch , and member of the catholick church . besides , who can be ignorant of the great disputes maintained with the see of rome in antient and latter times , by the christians of other communions , in defense of their rights ? the churches , both in the east and south , divided into several patriarchates and bishopricks , vindicated their privileges , which they enjoyed according to the decrees of the council of nice , in their several limits and districts . the title of universal bishop was not then known or pretended to : no one had either the vanity or the ambition to usurp such an unlimited power . this honour was reserved for pope boniface the third , and his successors , as if all the world hence forward were to be included within the walls or pomoeria of the city of rome . the world was astonished at this procedure , and could not with any patience admit and suffer so great an imposition . christian carthage despised the insults of the bishop of rome , as much as their heathen ancestors did the senate : and although constantinople , unwillingly enough , allowed the honour of the first , and chief see to rome , yet it ever maintained its own liberty : and though now horribly oppressed and sadly groaning under turkish tyranny , is not so forgetful of its ancient honour , as basely to submit to the claims of rome . they would very willingly retain communion with her , and with all the branches of the catholick church , if the hinderances of that communion were once removed , and that pretended universal authority laid aside : in which holy desire we join with them . let the bishop of rome be the first of that order ; provided , that he be not lookt upon , as the sole universal bishop ; and that all others be deemed to be , as indeed they are , by the constitution of christ and his apostles , independent , and not his vicars and deputies : and provided also , that their rights , which rely upon the same ecclesiastical laws , be reserved to them in their full and just extent ; and that the decrees of the roman court be not imposed upon the world with a non obstante to apostolical constitutions ; and that its jurisdiction be contained within the limits of the antient canons . if this bar were removed , a way would quickly be opened to let peace into the most divided parts of christendom . this all good christians , all but such worldly-minded men , whose interest it is to keep up these differences , earnestly wish , sigh , and pray for , and would readily unite upon these honest and just conditions , if truths necessary to salvation were only proposed to be believed , according to the antient forms ; if all fiery censures and excommunications were utterly condemned and abolished ; and if superstition were removed from the service of god , and the publick offices of religion . unless this be done , we must , as in the presence of god , and his holy angels , and all mankind , lay the schism at the romanists door , and wholly impute it to them , that the catholick church does not enjoy the great blessing of ecclesiastical peace . in the mean while , we of the church of england , are very ready to admit of any conditions of obtaining this most blessed and glorious end , provided that by them the peace of our consciences be not violated and disturbed ; that they do not contradict and thwart the principles and analogy of faith ; that the scripture , and its best and most genuine interpreter , antiquity , be admitted to have the highest and only lawful authority in determining controversies of faith ; that no prejudice be done to ecclesiastical government ; and lastly , that all things be tryed by the rules and canons and customs , which were in use in the first ages of christianity , by which the catholick church was then governed . o happy , o blessed , o glorious day , in which all these confusions , which no good man can think of without great disorder of mind , shall be removed , and all , who worship the same crucified saviour , shall unite in brotherly love , charity , and communion ! but the wicked lives of christians , and base secular interest will not permit us to expect so great a blessing . we must first endeavour to restore the piety , the strictness , the humility , the disinterestedness of the antient christians , before we can pretend to the same hearty unity . but alas ! we degenerate from their examples : religion is no longer lookt upon as a rule and institution of life and manners , but is turned into an art of disputing , and our vices alienate our minds from all thoughts and designs of union : pride , and malice , and naughty affections , and love of worldly splendor and greatness shut out all hope of peace . it must be the work of almighty god , and the wonderful effect of his providence and grace , to dispose the hearts of the christian princes , and great ecclesiasticks of the roman communion , to set upon this great design of reforming in order to a perfect union and agreement : and i doubt not , but thousands of that communion , especially in the gallican church , where they have set bounds to the exorbitant power of the pope by their late decrees , in compliance with the antient canons , and in vindication of their own privileges , and where they begin to be ashamed of several gross errors , which have hitherto passed for good , wholsome , catholick doctrine , as appears by their new expositions , and interpretations , and catechisms , long to see this happily effected : for which purpose it becomes us all , to put up incessant prayers to god , that all , who call , and own , and profess themselves christians , may remember from whence they are fallen and repent , and ever after exercise themselves in the practices of all christian virtues , and in the acknowledging of the truth , which is after godliness , that laying aside all vain jangling about lesser matters , they may follow after things , which make for peace and mutual edification , and that being guided and governed by the good spirit of god , they may be led into the way of truth , and hold the faith , the truly christian , the truly apostolical , the truly catholick faith , in unity of spirit , in the bond of peace , and in righteousness of life . may the god of all mercy and comfort at last restore unity to his church , now labouring under grievous distractions , for the merits and intercession of our blessed lord and saviour jesus christ. amen . finis . errata . page 16. line 30. for contributes read contribute l. 31. for difference r. differences . books printed for sam. smith at the prince's-arms in st. pauls church yard . concio ad clerum habita coram academia cantabrigiensi junii 11. an. 1687. pro gradû baccalaur . in s. theologia . ubi vindicatur vera & valida cleri anglicani , ineunte reformatione , ordinatio . cui accessit concio habita julii 3. 1687. de canonicâ cleri anglicani ordinatione , latinè reddita & aucta . a t. browne , s. t. b. coll. d. joh. evang. soc. annexum est instrumentum consecrationis matth. parker archiepiscopi cantuariensis ex ms. c. c. c. cant. the state of the church of rome when the reformation began , as it appears by the advices givento paul iii. and julius iii. by creatures of their own. with a preface leading to the matter of the book . remarks upon the reflections of the author of popery misrepresented , &c. on his answerer , particularly as to the deposing doctrine ? in a letter to the author of the reflections . together with some few animadversions on the same author's vindication of his reflections . jacobi usserii archiepiscopi armachani , opuscula duo , nunc primùm latinè edita : quorum alterum est de episcoporum , et metropolitanorum origine : alterum de asia proconsulari . accessit veteris ecclesiae gubernatio patriarchalis , ab e. b. descripta . interprete r. r. e. b. p. praetereà accedit appendix , de antiquâ ecclesiae britannicae libertate , & privilegiis , miracles work 's above and contrary to nature ; or , an answer to a late translation out of spinoza ' s tractatus theologico-politicus , mr. hobb ' s leviathan , &c. published to undermine the truth and authority of miracles , scripture , and religion , in a treatise entituled miracles no violation of the laws of nature . the difference between the present and future state of our bodies considered in a sermon , by jeremy collier , m. a. the life of st. mary magdalene of pazzi , a carmelite nunn . newly translated out of italian by the reverend father lezin de sainte scholastique , provincial of the reformed carmelites of touraine . at paris , for sebast. cramoisy in st. james ' s street , at the sign of fame . 1670. and now done out of french : with a preface concerning the nature , causes , concomitants , and consequences of ecstasy and rapture , and a brief discourse added about discerning and trying the spirits , whether they be of god. the vanity of all pretences for tolleration , wherein the late pleas for tolleration are fully answered ; and the popular arguments drawn from the practice of the united netherlands are stated at large , and shown to be weak , fallacious & insufficient . the duty of servants , containing first , their preparation for , and choice of a service . secondly , their duty in service , together with prayers suited to each duty . to this is added a discourse of the sacrament suited peculiarly to servants . by the author of practical christianity . the history of the original and progress of ecclesiastical revenues : wherein is handled according to the laws , both ancient and modern , whatsoever concerns matters beneficial , the regale , investitures , nominations , and other rights attributed to princes . written in french by a learned priest , and now done into english. notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a60563-e170 a commonitor . cap. 32. a v. salvian . de gubernat . dei lib. 5. p. 100. ex editione baluzii . a sermon preached at the consecration of the right reverend father in god ambrose lord bishop of kildare in christ-church, dublin, june 29, 1667 / by the right reverend father in god, henry, lord bishop of meath. jones, henry, 1605-1682. 1667 approx. 122 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 45 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2005-12 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a47044 wing j948 estc r5267 09464174 ocm 09464174 43197 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a47044) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 43197) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 386:12, 1311:3) a sermon preached at the consecration of the right reverend father in god ambrose lord bishop of kildare in christ-church, dublin, june 29, 1667 / by the right reverend father in god, henry, lord bishop of meath. jones, henry, 1605-1682. [44], 31 [i.e. 42], [1] p. printed by john crook ... and are to be sold by samuel dancer ..., dublin : 1667. errata: p. [1] at end. reproductions of original in the cambridge university library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng jones, ambrose, d. 1678. bible. -n.t. -titus i, 5-9 -sermons. church polity -sermons. episcopacy -sermons. 2005-04 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2005-05 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-07 simon charles sampled and proofread 2005-07 simon charles text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion imprimatur mich. dublin . canc. a sermon preached at the consecration of the right reverend father in god ambrose lord bishop of kildare in christ-church , dublin , june 29. 1667. by the right reverend father in god henry lord bishop of meath . dublin , printed by john crook , printer to the king 's most excellent majestie , and are to be sold by samuel dancer in castle-street . 1667. to the most honourable james , duke , marquess , and earl of ormond , earl of ossory and brecknock , viscount thurles , lord baron of arklow and lanthony , lord of the regalities and liberties of the county of tipperary , chancellor of the universitie of dublin , lord lieutenant general , and general governour of his majesties kingdom of ireland , lord lieutenant of the county of somerset , the city and county of bristol , and the cities of bath and wells , one of the lords of his majesties most honourable privy councils of his majesties kingdoms of england , scotland , and ireland , lord steward of his majesties household , gentleman of his majesties bed-chamber , and knight of the most noble order of the garter , his grace , my lord , what of ecclesiastical government in the christian church , hath passed our fore-fathers unquestioned more than one thousand five hundred years , from the apostles downward , that , is become the unhappy dispute of this last age , both as to pen and sword. this had its rise at geneva , anno 1541. a the people having thence tumultuously expelled their bishop , and being thereby without government , and to seek for the way toward it , thereupon did calvin put himself on them , finding , in that , a fit introduction to greatness , and by his prudence , and learning , ( in both which he excelled ) became he there an oracle , and his will a law . of that made he use in meditating , forming , and proposing a model of church-government , ( it being desired of him by the people ; ) which he well ordered to his ends , and interests ; intermixing church , and lay-elders ; ( those fixed , these yearly elected ) appointing a double number of the laity , to what was of the other ; that is , six ministers , and twelve others , chosen out of their three councils of state , viz. six out of their council of two hundred , and four out of that of sixty , and two out of the twenty five ; wherein ( for pleasing the people ) the advantage of major votes was given them in decisions ; and in that , most of power in them ( seemingly ) placed ; whereas , indeed , all was thereby in himself , and in his church-elders principally , well judging , that the fewer ( being learned , leading , and lasting ) might easily influence , and overbear a greater number not so reaching , and changing , whose election also might be by the other so ordered , as to serve a church-interest . and least ( on consideration , ) this might be ( over-soon apprehended and avoided . therefore had calvin ( undertaking that form of government , desired of him ) first , politickly , obliged that people by oath to receive and submit to what should be so proposed ; provided , it were agreeable to gods word , and to the approbation of such of the reformed churches as should be thought fit to be therein consulted . and accordingly , did he carefully hold , in that , to scripture-names and words , knowing , that this could not but sound well howsoever , and that it might take with the less discerning , and would certainly pass with those , whose interest it was to be so satisfied . in which , he fixed principally on the name of elders ; a scripture-name , of which much is spoken in both testaments , but in the new testament sounding toward the frame of government in the christian church : yet , in the new testament was found the word bishop also : and this , as considerable , for church government as could be pretended to , in that other of elders ; and yet , must not ( notwithstanding ) the name of bishop be in this new model mentioned : for , the name would mind the injurious casting off of their bishop , and the thing stood in the way to other grandeures ; therefore with the person must the name of bishop be shut out also . but how may that be without force and wrong to scripture ? where , of the name and office of bishops , is mention frequent and honourable ; as to that , the expedient is readie and easie . it is but ordering the text to the gloss , and framing such an interpretation for that scripture-name bishop , that thenceforth ( although never till then ) by bishops , elders be understood : so as , whatsoever is in the new testament said of bishops , should be of elders onely , & that bishops and elders be as the same , not distinguished in office or work . but such avoiding of express scriptures by private constructions , could not satisfie all : therefore , what is short in that , is to be supplied otherwise ; that is , by the sense and approbation of other reformed churches : and to that is this new law-giver put ( unexpectedly ) by a reluctancy found in the people , they beginning to resent the design , and desiring ( if possible ) to get off , and loose from that , in which they now saw , ( but too late ) themselves intangled . and whereas their late obligation of an oath , could not but stick close , it behoved to seek their libertie some other way , and no other way appeared so ready , as that part of the mentioned proviso , the sense of other churches in the case , by which was hope for evading , it being observed , that no other church was then so modelled in government ; and therefore , was it hoped they might be inclined not to favour this , being new and strange . this , the people now press , and to four of the helvetian cities and churches is by them addressed , with which calvin closeth readily ; that being what he expected , and for what he was prepared , and of which he had already assurance . for , ( all that having been foreseen ) he had before ( underhand ) by letters , dealt with the principals of those churches , that they would not fail to declare for that form of government , in which he had so laboured for geneva , ( saying ) that religion , and piety , and the welfare of that church and people depended on it . whereby when that business was by all parties laid before those churches , the answer was readie ; which was , that they had heard of those consistorial laws , which they acknowledged for godly ordinances , and drawing towards the prescript of gods word : therefore did they think it good for the church of geneva , not to change the same , but rather to keep as they were . thus , is calvins work done , and setled , and the people brought to a succumbency ; onely , it remained , that whereas it had been by those compromising churches , more warily delivered concerning those laws of government , that they were godly ordinances ( which might seem a lean expression ) and that they did draw toward the prescript of gods word , ( which was short and diminishing ) therefore was something to be declared more absolute and positive in the case . and seeing it was not to be expected from other churches , it was thus therefore otherwise ordered ( and as effectually ) first , that this discipline be cried up ( as it was industriously ) for ancient , apostolical , and wholly scriptural ; and so , above all other forms whatsoever , and therefore , to be that to which other churches should conform ; and geneva ( as to church and government , ) to be esteemed of all , and above all best reformed : unto which , in that cursed national covenant in england , was respect had particularly . wherein is to be observed the prodigious growth of this last nights mushrom ; that this , but just now , standing on its good behaviour , and beholding to others votes and approbation ( and that begged ) for introducing it , and needing an oath ( slily imposed , and inconsiderately taken ) for holding the people to it , it self also looking on it self jealously , whether to be or not ; yet should it now from a politick government start up in a moment , and be transformed to what is divine . and therefore no longer begging , but commanding ; nor to be now confined to geneva , ( where first imposed , ) but geneva in that , giving laws to the world , and expecting from other churches conformity to that as the principal . by all which ( notwithstanding ) although other reformed churches had been in all this time , little influenced ; yet ( surely by some fatality ) hath it been with us in these kingdoms otherwise . for this geneva form well pleasing our english , fled to geneva in q. mary's persecution was by them brought thence in their return ; by whom it having been for a time hatched in private conventicles , at length was it brought forth , and after by strong hand imposed on our churches for imitation : as was that idol-altar at damascus patterned for jerusalem . b this began in scotland , where episcopacie was cast off by the reformers ( geneva principled ) and that ( as in geneva , ) in a way popular and tumultuary so imbibing reformation with schism . and although in th● other kingdoms episcopacy still held , and many years flourished after the reformation , ( to the glory of our church above all others reformed ) yet was that sacred hierarchy , in that time , by that party oft pushed at ; and at length , ( they getting head and power in our late dismal times ) our very foundations of government , civil , and ecclesiastical , regal , and episcopal , ( as by a general earthquake ) were at once , and together , overturned , and in their ruins buried : under which universal desolations lay these kingdoms , miserably , when ( as by miracle ) all were again raised and restored to their former beauty and lustre , by his sacred majesties glorious and happy restauration . ( and next and unto his majesty ) doth ireland own your grace in its settlement , both as to church and state , our general settlement of the kingdom by your great hand , speaking your glory to generations . and whereas all these mentioned evils and miseries , had been occasioned by schism , and by that particularly concerning church-government , and that this present generation hath been ( in a great measure ) bred and educated in an age , where that truth hath been silenced , and nothing heard but what hath been loudly against it , and the contrary magnified , as what only is according to scripture : and considering , that this , ( we must now say ) controversie , being cleared , mens minds ( or some of them ) might be satisfied in the truth , and thereby setled in obedience ; therefore ( occasion being for it ) did i take up this subject , in which episcopacy is asserted as apostolical , and the contrary examined , so far , as the short time then allowed me would admit ; which being by your grace commanded from me , it is thus in due obedience presented ; yet in some particulars here and there enlarged , above what was in publick delivery , what is so added , being what was intended to have been then spoken , had i not been enforced by the time , and work of the day , to contract . all which is now laid at your excellencies feet , and under your great and piercing judgment , there , leaving it humbly , and ever praying for your lordships happiness every way ; and that the lord would remember you according to the good by you done for the house of our god , and for the offices thereof . your graces in duty and service . henry midensis . dublin , 16. aug. 1667. my lord , i have more than once read your lordships very excellent sermon , and do think it not only so convincing in what it aims at , but so prudent and seasonable , that with your good leave , i wish it may be printed , and to that end have left the copy you sent me in my lord chancellors hands . what you are pleased to say of me , in your epistle to me , is the only questionable part of the work ; and if i have not been what you say , you teach me what i should be , and i receive the instruction as i ought , and remain . your lordships most affectionate humble servant , ormonde . for the right reverend father in god the lord bishop of meath . these . the preface to the reader . what is here withall now published , was at first intended to have been no farther publique , then as spoken . but it being since then , otherwise ordered , and concieving that so necessary a truth ( now dark and controversal , ) might require more for its explication and proof , then was , or could ( circumstances considered ) be , at that time , in speaking allowed . therefore is this intended in way of supplement at present , which may be hereafter farther enlarged , as opportunity shall be for it ; if not , perhaps , thereunto provoked by gain-sayers , whom i expect and provide for . the asserting the episcopal office and calling , and in that , the government ecclesiastical of the christian church , is that now before us , concerning which that may be found true , which god speaks of some other his truths , in corrupt times . i have ( saith he ) written to them the great things of my law , but they were counted as a strange thing . a and what is now so strange , as to hear of episcopacy , that it is the true , ancient , and apostolical government of the church ? and on the contrary , that the government without elders ( lay or others ) is but feigned , and novel ? yet , is this a great truth , episcopacy having been received , both in profession and practice in all ages of the church , from the first of christianity unto 〈◊〉 last age , whereas now we find this truth , not so much antiquated or forgotten , as utterly denied . but comparing scripture , and authentick records of ancient times 〈…〉 evident , that episcopacy is so far apostolically divine , 1. that bishops were in the 〈◊〉 times of the apostles . 2. and they by the apostles themselves ordained and appointed . 3. and that in those very times of the apostles , in the apostolical churches ( such as were by the apostles themselves planted , and setled , ) there had been an approved succession of bishops . 4. and that in all the following p●●●●tive ages of the church , the 〈◊〉 by bishops , so apostolically ordered , had been accordingly received , and continued , no one church contradicting in word , or practice . 5. lastly , nothing heard , in all that time , of a government by elders , lay , o● other . for manifesting which , briefly , in particulars , it appears , 〈…〉 ( taking that unto the death of 〈◊〉 john , an . 〈◊〉 ) 1. that st. james , ( not the son of 〈◊〉 who was killed by herod b but 〈…〉 killed the 〈◊〉 and the 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 brother c or kinsman ) was ( it may be on such respect● ) appointed by the apostles , bishop of jerusalem . he was there , therefore resident , while other the apostles were other where on their work . and on that account might he be ( probably , ) pointed 〈…〉 as principal among the 〈◊〉 d 〈◊〉 ( faith he ) show these things unto james , and to the brethren , speaking of his miraculous deliverance from herod , and from his prison . and after , in the great council 〈◊〉 hierusalem ( the greatest that ever was in the christian world , all the apostles being present ; ) st. james appears there as principal and president , by whom ( as 〈◊〉 by such usual ) the resolve of the council is last , and definitively declared . e also to st. james , is by st. paul at hierusalem expresly addressed . f and again , and again is he honourably mentioned among , and above others , g in which he was considered as bishop of hierusalem , which i need not prove , it being by the other 〈◊〉 〈…〉 ●ledged , & proved also , although with some tenderness , as to be willingly passed over . it seemeth ( say the authors of the annot. on the bible printed an . 1651. ) that he was assigned to stay at jerusalem . h but on what account was that ? they test us , i antiquity ( say they ) took him , ( james ) to be superintendent , or bishop of the church of jerusalem , chrys. hom . 33. in act. jerom. to 1 catal. ser. eccles. these are their words and proof for it , of that therefore i need not ( i hope ) say more . after st. james ( who governed that church thirty years ) his brother simon or simeon succeeded in that bishoprick ; k he , living until he was 120 years old , suffered under 〈◊〉 . 2. by appointment of st. peter , st. mark was appointed bishop of alexandria , and the first there . he died five or six years before s. peter or s. paul , and almost 40 years before s. john : him succeeded anianus , then abilius , and after cerdo , all in the apostles time . l 3. by s. paul was timothy made bishop of ephesus , and titus bishop of crete . the postscripts to those epistles stile them bishops ; which beside the antiquity of that testimony , is otherwise averred , for the authors of the centuries m say , that it is evident that paul appointed timothy pastor , and that he was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or president , which is with beza a bishop . n timothy had first the bishoprick of the church of ephesus , and titus of the churches in crete : so eusebius , o also jerome , p timothy was ordained of s. paul the bishop of the ephesians , and titus bishop of crete : and oecumenius on these words , 1 tim. 1. 3. i be sought thee to abide still at ephesus , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . here ( faith he ) he appointed him bishop . q and of titus , r that paul left him to ordain bishops , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 having first made him bishop . as for timothies successors in the apostles times ; you have the angel of that church mentioned by s. john , re● . 2. 1. also polycrates bishop of ephesus contemporary to polycarpus bishop of smyrna , ordained by s. john. and of others his successors after , we read in the council of chalcedon ; where stephanus bishop of ephesus being deposed , and it being debated by whom the new bishop should be appointed , whether by the council , or by the provincial synod of asia ; thereupon leontius bishop of magnesia ( of the province of asia ) said , thatfrom s. timothy to that time , there had been 27 bishops of ephesus , all ordained in the province . s as to crete , and of bishops , succeeding titus ; we read , that basil bishop of gortyna ( the metropolis of crete ) was present at the council of trullo . t 4. the apostles s. peter , and s. paul , about the year 45. appointed evodius bishop of antioch , who continued there bishop 20 years . him ignatius succeeded , and sate there 30 years ; both of them in the times of the apostles . u 5. in the year 56. the same apostles ordered linus bishop of rome , who is mentioned 2 tim. 4. 21. after whom followed anacletus , and clemens , w in the apostles times also . clemens did see the apostles , and conversed with them , saith irenaeus ( l. 3. c. 3. ) 6. s. john ordained polycarp bishop of smyrna . x and after his return from exile , he appointed several bishops in divers places . y and as we finde it thus in those apostolical churches ( by themselves , ordered ) so in others also hath it been in like manner , as to apostolical ordination and succession : of which tertullian : as the church of smyrna had polycarpus placed there by s. john , and the church of rome clement ordained by s. peter , so the rest of the churches also did shew what bishops they had received by the appointment of the apostles , to traduce the apostolical seed to them . z in all which are seen , bishops ordained by the apostles ; with their succession , and that , even in the times of the apostles , together with their times and places , ascertaining the truth of it . adde , the universal practice after , of all churches , both orthodox , and heretical ; ( for even the novatians , arians , and donatists , &c. retained the true government of the church by bishops . ) but on the contrary , no instances out of councils , fathers or histories , can be given ( in all that time ) of churches ordered without bishops by elders , of which kind soever ; allowing the time when churches were first constituted ; they being then under the immediate tuition and care of the apostles themselves respectively , until by their removal or otherwise , they found it necessary to appoint others in their places , in which case , the apostles being themsel●es bishops , they then stood in that capacity , which bishops after supplied . that general consent therefore of all churches from the beginning , evidenceth the truth in this undeniably ; if it be not supposed , that all those holy fathers and councils should joyn in one , throughout all those ages , ( no one contradicting , ) in setting up a government in the church ( episcopal , ) contrary to what was by the apostles appointed ; and utterly silencing ( without the least memory ) what the apostles had ordered ( if so it were ) of a government by elders without bishops . but that , were to suppose a conspiracy and combination , as to those holy men uncharitable , and in it self irrational and impossible . this i rather chuse to give in the very words of his late majestie charles i. ( the royal martyr for this church truth , as for the essential priviledges of his crown and kingdoms ) that , being by him delivered in answer to certain papers of the divines attending the commissioners of parliament at the treatie of newpors in the isle of wight anno . 1648. a he that shall find by all the best records extant , that the distinction of bishops from , and the superiority over presbyters was so universally and speedily spread over the face of the whole world ; and their government submitted to so 〈◊〉 by the presbyters that there never was any considerable opposition made there against before aerius ( and that cried down as an hereste ) nor since till this last age , and shall duely consider withall that if episcopal government had not had an indubitable institution from the authority of christ and his apostles ; or if any other forme of church government could have pretended to such instruction , it had been the most impossible thing in the world , when their neither was any outward certain power to enforce it , nor could be any general council to stablish it , to have introduced such a forme of government so suddenly and quietly into all christian churches , and not the spirit of one presbyter for 〈◊〉 that appeareth for above 300. years to 〈◊〉 been provoke either through zeal ; ambition or other motive to stand up in the just defence of their own and the churches libertie against such usurpation . these are his majesties words . thus doth episcopacy derive from the first times , and shews it self generally received , and continued by a succession of after ages , in the christian church . which that by elders without bishops , cannot shew . by this tertullian concludes for the catholick church against heretiques . let them ( saith he ) shew the beginning of their churches , let them run over the succession of their bishops , so as the first of them , may have one of the apostles , or apostolique men , to be a founder , or predecessor . so apostolique churches derive themselves ; so doth the church of smyrna shew policarpus placed there by john : and rome , clements , ordained by peter ; so have other churches those , who were by the apostles appointed bishops by whom the apostolique seed ( or race ) is derived , or continued ( so tertullian , de praescript . advers . haeretic . c. 33. ) thus was it of old , and from th beginning , unto these later times ; when the change of that ancient forme of church government began ; that being occasionally brought in ( it troubles to say it ) with the reformation . ( then i say ) was that occasioned , rather than designed , or approved by the first reformers . for , the truth and puritie of the gospel , being then opposed and persecuted by popish bishops , thereby were those reformers enforced to act in that work of reformation without those bishops , whom they could not gain , and who were to them so contrary . yet did not those reformers in that , cast off episcopacy , with aversness to the order ; but onely in respect of those individual persons of the popish bishops oppressing , they the reformers in the mean time professing for episcopacy , and greatly desiring it , if it might be . it is 〈◊〉 by us endea●oured ( say they ) that bishops be deprived of government , or power , but it is desired , that they suffer the gospel to be purely preached : b and we have oft protested , that we do greatly approve the ecclesiastial politie and degrees in the church , and as much as in us lieth , we desire to preserve them . we do not dislike the authority of bishops , so that they would not compel us to do against gods commandments : c and yet again , we do here protest , and we would have it to be recorded , that we would willingly have the ecclesiastical and canonical politie , if the the bishops cease to tyrannize over our churches . this our desire shall excuse us with all posterity , both before god and all nations . d all which we have in that famous augustan confession of the reformers , who from the word protest , so frequent there , had then and thence the name of protestants , they being there first called protestants , as first christians at antioch e this augustan confession , or profession , or protestation , was signed by the more eminently learned in that age , and work of reformation : among whom , even calvin was a subscriber . yet did others of the chief reformers , adhere to their professions made concerning the right of episcopacy , both as to order and jurisdiction , concluding , that in justice it ought not to be violated . f by what right or law ( saith melan●thon to camerarius ) may we dissolve the ecclesiastical politie , if the bishops will grant us what in reason they ought to grant : and though it were lawful , yet surely it were not expedient . and he writing to luther , you will not believe how they of noricum and others hate me , propter restitutam episcopis jurisdictionem , for restoring the jurisdiction of bishops . g and camerarius in the life of melancthon ▪ saith thus of him , ( h ) melancthon non modo adstipulatore sed etiam authore ipso luthero &c. ) melancthon not onely by the consent , but even by advice also of luther perswaded , that if bishops would grant free use of the true doctrine , the ordinary power , and administration of their several diocesses should be restored to them ; and even beza who succeeded calvin in geneva for the space of ten years in like authority , duering which time , he was strict in his judgment as to his discipline ; yet after danaeu's his comeing thither , whereby that course of continueing long in that place , was altered , and beza laid by ; then could he find those inconveniences in that course , which he could not now remedie , onely , wishing it were otherwise . so speaking of the 34th canon , of those called , the apostles canons , concerning the power of metropolitans over bishops , quid aliud ( saith beza ) hic statuitur , quam ordo ille , quem in omnibus eccles●is restitutum cupimus : what is in this appointed , but that order , which we wish maybe restored , in all the ghurches ? f i shall but add that of zanchius , ( one of the most learned of that side . ) he in a confession , or profession of faith by him composed , speaking of church orders , and saying that arch bishops and patriarchs may be defended , k and sending that his confession to others for their approbation , and consent in it ; he found exceptions taken at that said by him concerning those church orders : his words are . l a certain eminent person , did write to me thus : what you write of your confession , hath been by me , and by n. and others received with great delight ; it being learnedly written , and in an accurate method , with which i was greatly pleased , if you except what in the end you add of archbishops and that hierarchy . on which zanchius maketh for himself this apologie ; when ( saith he ) i wrote this confession of faith : i did write all things out of a good conscience , and as i believed so did i freely speak . now my faith is grounded chiefly and simply on the word of god ; something also , in the next place , on the common consent of the whole ancient catholique church , if that be not repugnant to the scriptures . i do also beleive , that what things were defined in councils and received by the godly fathers , gathered together in the name of the lord , by common consent of all , without any gainsaying of the holy scriptures , that those things also , ( though they be not of the same authority with the holy scriptures ) proceeded from the holy ghost . hence it is , that those things that ●e of this kind , i neither will , nor dare with a good conscience dislike . but what is more certain out of history , councils , and writings of all the fathers , then that those orders of ministers , whereof i speake , were established , and received by the common consent of all christendom ( quis autem ego ? &c ) and who am i , that i should disallow , what the whole church approveth : nor date all the learned men of our times oppose it ; knowing that it was both lawfull for the church so to order it : and that those things proceeded , and were ordained for the best ends , and for the edifying of the elect. ( so zanchius ▪ ) he , in that , agreeing with the sence of the moderate sort of reformers . notwithstanding which , as a little stepping out of the right way , and so proceeding , makes ( in long running ) the return more difficult , so those reformers stepping so , out of the right path of truth , in acting ( as they did ) without bishops ( although thereunto enforced ) thereby was occasion given to those following , to proceed in that error , and so farre , as not onely to be without bishops , but to be also to them ill spirited ; which their leaders , were not , and that , at length , ending in schisme , and seperation . but let such consider , that for that very thing was aerius by the fathers branded with haeresie ( as was before mentioned ? he , as an arian first opposed christ ; and after , his church , in its government ; and that obstinately , and schismatically ; the occasion whereof would be considered . it was his standing for a bishoprick , in competition with eustathius , both of them arians , and in an arian church ; ( for very arians also held the true government of the church by bishops ) but aërius being put by what he so ambitiously desired , and eustathius preferred to the bishoprick , thereupon discontented , ( discontent proyeing oft , a rise to haeresies , and schismes ) aërius did first , set himself against eustathius : and after against the whole episcopal order ; teaching ; that between a preshiter , and a bishop there is no difference : that the order is the same , and the honour alike in both &c ) ( the very doctrine of our late aëriaus ) but in that was he opposed by st. augustin m and by epiphanus . n both censuring that his opinion for heresie ; nor was he by them alone oppugned , but ( as epiphanus , who lived in the same times with him , addeth ) all churches both in city , and country , so detested him , and his followers , ( which were many ) that being abandoned of all they were forced to live in open fields , and woods o which opinion of aërius against bishops being so by the fathers adjudged heresie it was , in that , judged to be contrary to gods word ( for there is no heresie ) that is not contrary to gods word . ) and let those in his case among us , se to this : and how farre they are gone in this seperation , casting of the sacred order of bishops utterly , contrary to the sence of the first reformers , who would have bad bishops if they might , but these will not , though they may ; and those such bishops as are affectionate to them in the truth . and readie to receive them , ( returning ) with embracements of love in christian communion . which spoken of the reformed churches , acting in the first reformation without bishops , is not to be understood , as if they after continued without bishops ; for as soon as could be , they did , ( many of them ) set up that holy order of bishops and archbishops in their churches , yet ( i know not why ) with change of those good ancient names for worse ; in ecclesijs protestantium non desunt reips● episcopi , & archiepiscopi , quo● mutatis●onis graecis nominibus in male latina , vo●ant superintendentes , & generales superintendentes , ( saith zarichius ) the protestant churches , ( understand many of them . ) want not bishops and archbishops , haveing them in effect ; whom changing good greek names , into bad latine names , they call superintendents and general superintendents . p and when it is said , that of the reformed churches , retaineing episcopal government , there are many ; understand those many , for the more considerable . some of them holding to that order , in substance , but under varied names , ( as was said ) others , under the proper appollations of archbishops and bishops and that in their primitive lustre and dignity . among these , and above all , are the churches of great brittaine and ireland , in this , emmently glorious ; where , that apostolical government is here held up , in name , and forme , in title , and substance ; to the lasting honour of those our princes : who in that , as otherwise , well merited the title of defenders of the faith ; ( a glorious gemme in the royal diadem ) an honour ( i may say it ) peculiar to his sacre●d majesty charles the 〈◊〉 above all his 〈◊〉 progenitors they having but maintained what of this they found , and had been delivered into their hands in a long settlement , but he restoring what had 〈◊〉 by a stoole of iniquitie , as by ( a law , ) q 〈◊〉 out ( as they intended ) root and branch . the praise of the reforming princes of juda ( such were asa , jehosaphat , hezekiah , and josiah ) was next those , by whom gods worship was first setled ( david and solomon ) and in that above all others , although other ways good , in maintaining gods worship as they found it delivered to their hands . among these , hezekiah was eminent ; for he found all in confusion ( 〈…〉 29. ) the temple defiled , prophaned , and shut up , and its service neglected , and interrupted . he opened the doors of the house of the lord. ( v. 3. ) and ordered the carrying out the filthyness out of the sanctuary ( v. 5. 15. 16. ) after , setling those , appointed for the holy service , together with then worke ( v. 18. &c , ) and all that by him early begun , and soon perfected . for the first 〈◊〉 and first month of his reign ( v. ● ) and the first day of the month ( v. 17. ) he immediately on his comeing in , was this begun ▪ and so was it industriously followed , as that in sixteen days the work was finished ▪ ( v. 17. ) that expedition , shewing it to be from the ( lord , so is it observed ( v. 36. ) that god prepared the people , for the thing was done suddainly : and ( ch●●●● 〈◊〉 it is said , that in judah , the hand of god was to give the● one heart , to do the commandement of the king , and of the princes , by the word of the lord : on all which followed , great joy in salem ; for since the time of solomon , the son of david king of israell , there was not the like in hierusalem ( 2. chr. 30. 36. ) so was it in hezekiahs reformation . in which we see his sacred majestie our dread soveraign , in his glorious work of reformation , lively portrayed . 1. as to the greatness of the work all was among us in greatest confusion , and deformation , by a pretended reformation ▪ gods houses prophaned , his holy service neglected , interrupted , and despised ; and the sacred office , and officers of the church cast off , and 〈…〉 on : and ( in order to their 〈…〉 ) were the ample 〈◊〉 of the church ( the lords portion ) ●acrilegiously invaded , and designedly alienated into 〈◊〉 , great , and many thereby ingaged to oppose the very office for ever . 2. and as wene the proceedings in hezekiahs reformation , so were they 〈◊〉 of his majesties , answereably 〈◊〉 that work did he set himself early , even the first year , the first month , and the first day of the month , that is , immediately after his majesties happy entrando among his people , and before his own solemn settlement on his royal throne , then , were the doors of the lords house by him opened , and the sanctuary purged from filth , and prophanation ! then the holy offices of the church in gods service setled . and our apostolical church officers , ( arch-bishops and bishops ) set in their respective places . and soon after , were also restored the just possessions of the church , for support of those attending that sacred work . and all this done , as it were , on a suddain silently , and cheerfully , even to astonishment that , shewing it not to be from men , but from god ▪ who , as he ●owed the hearts of the people as one man to his majesties own royal person ; as to david r so the hand of god was on the people , that he gave them one heart , to do the commandement of the king , and of the princes towards this royal reformation as in hezekiah ( s ) and that as there , 〈…〉 with a general rejoyeeing : for the like thing had not been in england since the beginning of christianity . in all which , as we have to bless god greatly for such his goodness to his people : so to begg daily his preserveing to us his sacred majesty ( as our nursing father of his church , ) together with such of the princes , who ( under his majesty ) have been in this great work , eminently instrumental . tit. 1. ver . 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9. ver. 5. for this cause left i thee in crete , that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting , and ordain elders in every city , as i had appointed thee . 6. if any be blameless , the husband of one wife , having faithful children , not accused of riot , or unruly . 7. for a bishop must be blameless , as the steward of god : not self-willed , not soon angry , not given to wine , no striker , not given to filthy lucre . 8. but a lover of hospitality , a lover of good men , sober , just , holy , temperate . 9. holding fast the faithful word , as he hath been taught , that he may be able by sound doctrine , both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers . that , is here verified , which the great apostle of the gentiles s. paul speaketh of himself , his being daily pressed with the care of all the churches ; a that his care began in planting ; and was followed in watering , and continued in settling the churches planted and watered . first , planting where yet none were : in which his pains were great , labours indefatigable , and endeavours succesful ; so that from jerusalem , and round about unto illiricum , i have ( saith he ) fully preached the gospel of christ. b in which round about , are arabia , damafeus , antiochia , seleucin , cyprus , ●amphilia , pisedia , licaonica , siria , cilicia , ●hrygia , galatia , misia , troas , achaia , epirus , and many more ; over all which he passed in few years , in all , powerfully and effectually preaching the gospel of christ ; so were those churches planted . secondly , after that , was his care also in watering and confirming the churches so planted . and that did he : 1. by personal visits ( where it might be ) and staying with them also ( while it was permitted him ; ) so find we him wintering at nicopolis of macedonia , whence this epistle is sent , c and continuing about ephesus the space of three years . d 2. also , sending others for that work , where he himself could not be : so in corinth , where himself had planted , there apollo after watered e and thither sent he also timotheus , that ( saith he ) he should bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in christ , as i teach every where in every church . f 3. further also confirming , in appointing some to be more constant and resident , for instructing and ordering the churches ; so timothy at ephesus , g and titus in crete . h 4. that also by writing , where there was occasion : such are his epistles , whether to those appointed in chief over the churches respectively , as to timothy and titus , or to the churches themselves ; so to the romans , &c. hereby confirming the souls of the disciples , and exhorting them to continue in the faith , and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of god. i thirdly and lastly , his care was in setling the church planted and confirmed . in that , was his care ( as was said ) continued . this settlement of the church , was 1. by order and government there appointed ; ( without that , were no settlement ) for that , is titus left in crete , to set in order the things there wanting , &c. 2. in appointing persons fitly qualified for that work ; for which is here also provided ( v. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9. ) where you see those qualifications in such required . 3. in both , providing for the future , as for the present ; and that , by ordination , ordaining elders in every city . ordination is a standing church ordinance ; answering mortality , supplying vacancies , and extending to all in holy orders ; not to those of lower rank onely , to whom ( in common speaking ) ordination seemeth to be now almost rest ained ; but rising to the higher also , even to bishops , in respect of whom , it is now termed , commonly , consecration . consecration is the highest act of ordination . ordination includeth consecration ; so are bishops ordained , as timothy ordained bishop of ephesus ; k and , titus ordained bishop of crete . l this is the work of this day ; for which , and for what concerns it , are these words now chosen . in which words you have the persons in this sacred ministration considered , 1. in their place , order and work , ( v. 5. ) 2. in their qualifications , apting and fitting for that work ( v. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9. ) 1. as to the persons in this great work of church settlement ; see them here considered as chief and subordinate : first , the apostle , next , and under him , titus ; and by titus , others ordained and ordered : so was it there , so in other churches ; so was it then , and to be so in the church successively for ever ; which gives us this doctrinally , that in order and church-government , is church-settlement . in which , speaking of order , are excluded parity and community . 1. parity ; that , and government , are inconsistent ; for , if all equal , who then ruling ? who ruled ? who ordering ? who ordered ? inter pares non est potestas ; government there ceaseth . 2. community : that also is here excluded : community as to government , is but confusion . let quakers , and such , see to this ; among whom ( in divine things ) is no distinction of offices , or persons , no , nor of sexes , even very women ) to whom it is not permitted , but expresly forbidden , to speak in the church , the apostle crying shame on such so speaking , m yet even women so speaking , are among these allowed . lastly , all with them depending ( in divine duties ) on uncertain impulses , whensoever , and from whomsoever : wherein , let them see , if such impulses be ( what they pretend ) from god ; god disowning confusion , and that in the church especially : god is not the author of confusion , but of peace , as in all the churches of the saints . n and what greater confusion , than for a body to be all in a heap and lump , without head or foot , or distinction of members ? so is it there . levelling parity therefore , and confused community , are in this , excluded , as contrary to order , government and settlement . therefore order here intended , is that wherein is distinction of offices and persons , and degrees , in way of superiority and subordination : this nature , and reason , and scripture shew to be necessary . 1. so is it in the body natural ; where the the members are distinguished in order and use ; which is by the apostle excellently expressed , o shewing , that the body is not one member , but many ; p and , if the whole body were an eye , where were the hearing , and if the whole were hearing , where were the s●elling , q and if they were all one member , where were the body ? but now are they many members , yet but one body ; r shewing after , the use of that distinction , in the usefulness thereby of each member to other , and of all , to the body ; s and that thereby , there should be no schism in the body t applying all that to us ; that as the body is one , and hath many members , and all the members of that one ●od● being many , are one body ; so also ( saith the apostle ) is christ ( ver . 12. ) that is , christ mystical , considered as compleat in head and body , he the head , we ( taking in the church catholick , or universal ) being his body , and each of us distinct members in that body under him the head . lastly , all that , is applied to the present business ; god ( saith he ) hath set some in the church , first , apostles , secondarily , prophets , thirdly , teachers , after that , miracles , then gifts of healings , helps , governments , diversities of tongues ? ( adding ) are all apostles , are all prophets , are all teachers , are all workers of miracles , have all the gifts of healing ? do all speak with tongues , do all interpret ? ( ver . 28 , 29. ) so there . in all , you see a distinction of members in the body natural , distinct in order and use ; and that , every way , necessary . 2. see it so also in the body politique , in all civil societies of men in every condition , whether in families or corporations ( a word borrowed from the body ; ) or in states . in any of which , if no distinction of persons , or of callings , if not difference in place or degrees , how , in reason , can that family , city or kingdom subsist ? 3. and if so elsewhere generally , ( in the body natural and politick ) then so in the church , ( christs mystical body ) and there especially , the church being in this , leading to others . god ( saith the apostle ) is not the author of confusion , but of peace , as in all the churches of the saints w and in that , hath gods care appeared particularly , as is evidenced . 1. in the former ministration and government of the church under the law ; where god appointed , 1. one in chief , an high priest , superior to all in divine things ; he overseeing , ruling and judging gods house . x gods house is his church . y 2. vnder him the high priest , were levites , the lowest in that ministration , and more restrained in duty and at distance in the service of the tabernacle . z 3. from among the levites were priests chosen : who were , as to order , higher than levites , and in service more full , and nearer the altar , tabernacle or temple . 4. and whereas there were of these priests several courses ( 24 in number ) we find each of these 24 courses of priests to have had an overseer a or chief priest ; of which chief priests , much is spoken in the new testament . these chiif priests were in degree and dignity , next the high priest , and above all others . thus , and so , was the church then ordered , in way ( you see ) of preheminsnee and subordination : god himself so appointed it . but is it not now , under the new testament , otherwise ? is not that distinction now removed , all gods people being holy , b and all now a royal priesthood ? which is spoken of saints in a generality . c it is indeed what some would have ; therein , giving a general liberty to all , for acting in holy things in common , one as another ; or where that is by others restrained , they notwithstanding allow not in the church , government in chief , but taking that from others , that they themselves might rule . in which , as to that general liberty for acting in way of parity or community ; that is already cast off , it being inconsistent with order or government ( as hath been shewed . ) and as to that said of all the lords people being holy , therefore none to assume a propriety in divine offices more then others ( which is the consequence by such contended for ) there needs no more to be said of that , but to know whose reasoning that was ; was it not corah and his factious crew , by whom that was urged , against aaron and his d priesthood , which had been by god himself appointed ? that , therefore i ( hope ) will not be now again insisted on . lastly , to what is said of all gods people , that all are a royal priesthood e therefore all to act accordingly ; ( which is by some inferred ) 1. what priviledge is in that now , which had not been before , under the old testament ? for of them also is that spoken , f and yet none then so acted notwithstanding , who had not been thereunto peculiarly called . 2. all gods people are said to be kings also , as priests ; ( a royal priesthood , or a kingdom of priests . ) g and are all kings ? in a sense they are so ; and in that sense and not otherwise , are all priests also . all , that are truly gods , are kings , but that spiritually , and in a private capacity , as to our selves onely ; so are we kings ●ver our selves , ruling over our own hearts and passions , the greatest rule ; h he that is slow to anger , is better than the mighty ; and he that ruleth his spirit , than he that taketh a city ; so , are we all kings . and so , are all of us , priests also ; that is , spiritually ; so as are our sacrifices , an holy priesthood , to offer up spiritual sacrifices , acceptable to god by jesus christ. i all of us are also priests in our private capacities , all praying for our selves and others , and exhorting each other to good : this is incumbent on all christians , as christians , in way of private duty , not of office : for as to publick office , that appertaineth to such only as are thereunto expresly called , and peculiarly appointed ; no man taketh this honor to himself , but he that is called of god , as was aaron : so also even christ glarified not himself to be made an high priest , but he that said unto him , thou art my son , to day have i begotten thee ( as saith the apostle , hebr. 5. 4 , 5. and if not christ , until called to it , then surely none other ; therefore , was king vzziah sacrificing , justly of the high priest reproved , and by god himself punished : k to all it is given to be priests in way of private priviledge , not as to office publiquely . such were gods appointments in this , under the old testament ; nor is it now under the new testament otherwise : and so far is it from such a change now , that the new testament ministration may be observed , to be modelled to that of the old testament ; yet , with allowance of necessary variations , according to the change of times and things : this appears in both testaments , both as to service and government . i. as to service : see ours under the new testament , answering that of old ( although not the same . ) 1. for as there was then a priesthood , so now also : so was it prophesied of the gentile christian church , k i will take of them for priests , and for levites , saith the lord : the admitting gentiles into the priesthood was new , to what was formerly ; that is here promised . and see that expressed in an old testament stile , by priests and levites , shewing a conformisy in both testaments , in that , to each other . 2. as then were priests , so an altar , at which those priests officiated ; so now also have we our altar . let not this offend any ; it should not , they being the apostles words : we have ( saith he ) an altar , whereof they have no right to eat , which serve the tabernacle : l the words we , and they , distinguish persons , and times , and service ; yet both agreeing in an altar for each : but not now as then ; for otherwise , the right of those priests would be to this altar , as to that , but in that , the former priesthood is here excluded . 3. and as to the sacrifices on that altar ; bullocks , &c. were then offered ; m so have we ours also : but , the calves of our lips n prayer and praise , the fruit of our lips ( that is our sacrifice to god ) giving thanks to his name . o 4. maintenance also for those serving at the altar , is new , from what was formerly : do ye not know ( saith the apostle ) that they which minister about holy things , live of the things of the temple ; ( so then : ) even so hath the lord ordained , that they which preach the gospel , should live of the gospel . p 5. and even our very sacraments also are ( in matter ) from the old testament , although not now as then ; 1. our baptism is borrowed from their legal washings . 2. and our bread and wine in the lords supper , from the passeover rites ; but , as to nature , use and efficacy . vastly differing : so , have you seen the new t●stament service ( as to so much , and so far ) ordered and conformed to that before under the old testament . ( the time will not allow me to instance further in it . ) ii. see it so as to church-government also , ours and theirs : ours being now , in substance , modelled to the form of the old testament . 1. for as then there was an high priest over the house of god , supreme and ruling all there ; so is it now ; and such to us , is jesus christ our great high priest ; q of him , and of his priesthood and work , were those high priests , in their person , office and work , types and shadows ; therefore , they , and all that , to cease and give way , christ , the true high priest being manifested , and his work finished . 2. under that high priest were levites ( as you heard ) and they , lowest in that service , and more at distance , and short in ministring . to these answer our deacons , an office apostolically appointed , r and a name from ministring ; these , are with us lowest in office , and restrained in work , not admitted to all sacred duties ( for a time ) as it was with the levites of old . 3. as out of those levites , priests were called ; these being in degree higher and neerer the altar in their ministrings : so among us , are also priests ; ( called so as formerly ) or if called elders ( a name by some rather delighted in ) yet is even that , an old testament name also , s thence borrowed , and derived , and continued to us . these our priests , or elders , are ( as those before ) chosen out of our levite-deacons ; ( so from their conformity may i call them : ) and these our priests , as the other , are in order above deacons , and more enlarged in work and duty . 4. and as there , among those priests , there were some above others , who although of the same order ( both being priests ) yet were they in degrees differing , one being to the other superiour ; therefore termed overseers , and chief priests : these were as to place , next to the high priest , and above all others : and such with us were the apostles of our lord , they being ( in the rule and government of the church ) next unto christ the high priest , and above all others : hence , first apostles , is the place given them , t they are first , and among all other officers in the church the principal . in which apostolick order and work , were some things extraordinary , and some things ordinary . 1. extraordinary : ( for among the extraordinary offices in the church are apostles reckoned v that ( i say ) in this their office extraordinary , was their measure of gifts , infallibility of their doctrine , and the extent of their charge , their universal care of all the churches throughout the whole world ; for although some of them were for the circumcision , or for the jews principally ; and others for the vncircumcision , or gentiles more especially , w yet was not the extent of the apostolick power of either , in that limited , neither their universal care of all the churches ; the care of all the churches was on s. paul the apostle of the gentiles : x these things in the apostolick office extraordinary , were fix'd to their persons , and with themselves expired and determined . in that had they no successors ; therefore romes pretence to an universal bishoprick , and supremacy of care , and rule over all the churches in the world , and that , as s. peters successor , is but vsurpation , as the pretence to infallibility is also evidenced to be otherwise . 2. but in the apostolick office and work , was something also ordinary : such was their overseeing , ordering , ordaining , preaching and baptizing . this part of the work is lasting ; this is now , and ever holding in the church to all generations ; which is intended in their commission given them by our lord , y go ye and teach all nations , baptizing them , &c. and teaching them to observe all things whatsoever , i have commanded you , and lo i am with you alway ( saith christ ) to the end of the world . but how that to the end of the world ? of the prophets it is said , that they are dead , z and that is true of the apostles also . s. paul the aged , a had his time at hand in which he was to be offered up ; b so was s. peters tabernacle to be put off shortly ; c how then to the end of the world ? both are true ; for that which failed with their persons , lasts in their office , and in their work , and successors : so had the apostles successors . and accordingly do we finde them providing for succession , both as to persons and work . for that , were timothy and titus drawn in , and ordained by the apostle s. paul , to be then , his assistants , and to be after , his successors , for supplying his place , care , and work in their churches respectively ; he appointing them also to ordain others with , and under them , and others after to succeed these ; so , to generations unto the end of the world : of which , and of the correspondence of both testaments s. hierom speaks thus , d that we may see apostolical traditions to be taken out of the old testament , look what aaron and his sons , and the levites were in the temple , the same let the bishops , priests and deacons challenge in the church : and e we know bishops and priests to be what were aaron and his sons ; and s. cyprian calleth bishops the apostles successors : f all bishops are the apostles successors , saith s. hierom. g and as so , do we finde the apostles name , place and work , to have been by the apostles given to these their successors . ii. as to the name : the very name of apostle is so given to epaphroditus bishop of the philippians , as bullinger calls him ; h him doth s. paul call their apostle , philip. 2. 25. so is it in the original , whereas in our english ( it would be enquired how well ) it is rendred messenger . for s. ambrose on those words , i he ( epaphroditus ) is by the apostles made their apostle . and s. hierome writing on those words , my fellow souldier , and your apostle : fellow souldier ( saith he ) by reason of his honor , because he also had received the office of being an apostle among them k again , by those chosen by our lord , were others ordained apostles , as appears , in that to the philippians ( phil. 2. 25. ) epaphroditus your apostle , so s. hierom. ( coment . in gal. 1. 19. ) but that name apostle was not intended for a lasting name , as theodoret observeth , l in time past they called the same men presbyters and bishops , and they who are now called bishops , they named apostles ; but in process of time they left the name apostle to them properly called apostles , and the name of bishop they gave to them who had been apostles . apostle was their name , and even that name of bishop ( now more fixed ) is what they had from the apostles ; from whom they derive their office , that of bishop , was the apostles own name of office. so judas numbred with the apostles , and obtaining part of the same ministry with them the apostleship m that his apostleship is called his office ( so we read it ) but by the lxx , it is rendred , his bishoprick ) let another take his office or bishoprick ; n which word bishoprick is is used by the apostle s. peter , citing that in psalm 109. 8. according to the lxx , o and what is there called by the name of bishoprick , is after called apostleship : p the apostles were bishops , which are the words of s. ambrose ( in ephes. 4. 11. & 2 cor. 12. 28. ) and that name of bishop was derived to the apostles from those from whom ( under the old testament ) they derive ( if i may so say ) i mean these chief priests , called in our english , overseers , but by the lxx bishops : q overseers and bishops are the same ; r the holy ghost hath made you overseers , ( so in our english ) but in the greek , bishops : which the apostles name bishop is thus given ( you see ) to their successors bishops to this day . thus as christ the high priest hath the name of apostle ( heb. 3. 1. ) and bishop ( 1 pet. 2. 25. ) and as they sent by him ( his apostles ) were so also called ; so are in like manner they who are by the apostles substituted , as you have seen . ii. and as the apostolick name , so , the same work also , ( as , teaching , ordering , ordaining , &c. is by the apostles committed to their successors ; for this cause left i thee in crete , that thou shouldst set in order the things that are wanting , and ordain elders in every city , as i had appointed thee , saith the apostle here to titus his successor . s the same work being in all others in like place and trust in the church for ever . iii. and for carrying on that great work and name , had these , the apostles succssors , the apostles place and degree also in the church ; in being above others , and to be accordingly respected and esteemed . t among us ( saith s. hierome ) bishops have the place of the apostles : which his expression , among us , sheweth how bishops were esteemed among oxthodox christians ; other , than was among hereticks , such as montanus , and his followers , against whom he there writes ; blaming them , for so depressing and vilifying that sacred and high order , as they did ; and what is among us , chief and first ( speaking of bishops ) that is ( saith he ) last with them : ( with montanus and his faction ; ) with them bishops are in the third and last place . so , s. hierome ; on whom i fix rather then on many other , to that purpose , he being understood by the contrary side , not to have been of the best friends to bishops , yet in this , is the priviledge and preheminence of bishops by him acknowledged , asserted , and even ( you see ) contended for . thus was it in s. hieromes time , 400 years after christ ; it having been so continued to his days from the times of the apostles : so also after s. hieromes time , through all ages of the church , until that schism raised about 126 years since , in geneva , an. 1541 ( a year to us , in the next century , 1641. on the same account fata● : ) whereby , we find this sacred hierarchy trampled on by inferio● elders , by whom ( although the name of bishop would be forgotten ) yet is the place & power , and work of bishops by them notwithstanding ambitiously sought after , & sacrilegiously usurped , & to themselves alone appropriated ; affirming , all spoken of bishops to be intended onely of elders , and making elders and bishops the same , without difference of degree , or preheminence in any kind . some community there is indeed between bishops and elders , yet so , as that even in that , there appears sufficient to preserve to bishops their being , work and dignity , distinct and above those , who would themselves have all without sharing . let this be considered distinctly in that community , which is by these elders challenged with bishops both in name and work ; by which they conclude bishop and elders the same , and themselves all . as to the names of bishops and elders promiscuously used : for that , are these places of scripture , among others , by them , insultingly , insisted on particularly , acts 20. 28. where the elders of the church of ephesus ( v. 17. ) are v. 28 ) called overseers , or bishops ( so in the greek . ) also phil. 1. 1. the apostle saluteth the saints at philippi , with the bishops and deacons : see ( say they ) bishops ( plurally ) many of them in the same city ; therefore intended of elders , not bishops , and that there also bishops and deacons onely are named , not elders ; elders notwithstanding being intended ; therefore concluding , that in that of bishops , elders are understood , and not bishops . and even this text also ( tit. 1. 5 , 7. ) is by them urged to that purpose : where are elders in every city ( v. 5. ) and those elders ( v. 5. ) called bishops ( v. 7. ) 1. therefore ( say they ) to be meant of elders properly , and not of bishops ; on all , concluding that elders and bishops ( so promiscuonsly vsed ) are therefore the same , and not distinguished ; and therefore no preheminence in bishops over elders : these are the allegations and inferences , in this ; which are to be examined . but , the promiscuous using of those two names of bishops and elders ( the principal ground of these reasonings ) is far from such conclusions ; that because elders are called bishops , or bishops elders , both therefore to be the same , without priority or subordination ; whereas on the contrary , we find usually in scripture , the names of one degree given to another , without confounding them as the same ; or , in that , abating any way the dignity of the higher . see this in the name of deacons ( a name from ministring ; ) and that an order lowest in our ministration : yet , is that given to higher orders : so of timothy , bishop of ephesus , saith s. paul. if thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things , thou shalt be a good ( deacon ; ) we render it minister : v so speaks the apostle of himself , i paulam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a minister ( col. 1. 23 & the whole apostleship is also called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a deaconship , or ministry w ; and even jesus christ himself the great high priest , is called a deacon : jesus christ was ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) a minister of the circumcision ; x or , ministring to those of the circumcision . y but because our english readings in this , and in the original are diverse ; therefore not so clear to every apprehension ; let this therefore be considered in that other of elder , where it is more plain . in that , we finde the apostle s. john terming himself an elder , more than once , the elder to the elect lady , z and the elder to the well beloved gaius a : so s. peter of himself , the elders which are among you , i exhort , who am also an elder b . you see in that , the apostles called elders ; yet doth not that conclude , apostles and elders to be the same . for how oft do we read of apostles and elders as distinct . c nor doth it conclude , apostles and elders to be equal , because apostles are elders ; but , this it shews , that all apostles are elders ; not , all elders apostles , and that notwithstanding that community of names , they still are distinguished in degree and dignity . so is it as to bishops and elders in like manner , the name of elders is given to bishops , and of bishops to elders , both are true ; for in the bishop ( saith s. ambrose ) are all orders , because he is the first priest , that is , the prince of the priests d . again , e of a bishop and presbyter , there is one order for either of them as a priest , but the bishop is the first ; so that every bishop is a presbyter , but not every presbyter a bishop . so s. ambrose . thus all bishops are granted to be elders , and some elders are bishops , but all elders are not bishops . they who say they are , must prove it , before they can conclude any thing to purpose : nor will that do it , which they alledge out of acts 20. where the elders of the church of ephesus , ( v. 17. ) are termed overseers , or bishops : ( v. 28. ) for those elders were indeed bishops ; if not all , yet some of them , and to those some for all , is there spoken as bishops . this appears in that , ephesus was a see metropolitical , comprehending asia the less ( a large jurisdiction . ) so in the sixth general council of constantinople , theodorus bishop of ephesus thus subscribes , f theodorus by the mercy of god , bishop and primate of ephesus , the metropolis of the asian province , or diocess : g also of polycrates bishop of ephesus , eusebius saith , that he was ruler or chief of the bishops of asia ; h and that by his authority he did assemble a provincial synod to discuss the question about easter ; i and that he did write a synodical letter to victor bishop of rome ( euseb. l. 5. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) we find also in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or distribution of churches by leo the emperor , that ephesus was a metropolis , having 36 suffragane bishops ; k and so is ephesus to be understood in acts 20. as metropolical ; and that meeting of elders , or bishops there as provincial : for it is there called not the churches , but the church of ephesus , metropolitically ; yet , elders ( plurally ) implying . more than of one church : and as in a provincial meeting of the bishops of asia , together with other elders , ( both usually conveening on such occasions , ) might the apostle call those elders , litterally , bishops . irenaeus saith as much , that bishops and presbyters were there convocated from ephesus , and other adjoyning cities , &c. l and ( acts 20. 28. ) the holy ghost hath ( saith the apostle ) made you bishops ( so in the original ) or overseers ( so in our rendring : ) if therefore the holy ghost had made them bishops ; and the apostle call them so accordingly , we may then acquiesce in it , rather than to mince the matter according to pe●verse glossings , it being to so great a prejudice as the disturbance of the peace of the church ; ( so precious ) in this , have we to answer , what is alfo objected out of phil. 1. 1. the apostle sa●nting the saints at philippi , with the bishops and deacons , wherein the authors of the larger annotations on the bib●e , busie themselves exceedingly m in proving out of the second council of nice , and by cornelius bishop of rome ( there cited ) that there should be but one bishop in one city ; thence concluding , in favour of those times , that there being many bishops in philippi , therefore were not they bishops , but elders . but all this is grounded on a supposition , that philippi is restrained to that city of macedonia so called , whereas philippi was a metropolis in macedonia ; n and we read of the churches of macedonia ; o and of the brethren in all macedonia ; p and why may not philippi a metropolis , include its province ? and this epistle to the philippians be to that church at large , where many bishops were to be saluted , without those narrow inferences in confining philippi to a city within its walls , and the bishops and deacons at philippi , to those onely in that city inhabiting ; as to that farther objected from that text , phil. 1. 1. of bishops and deacons onely named ; and that elders being intended ▪ therefore , by bishops , ( say they ) elders are to be understood , and not bishops . but how follows that ? for , 1. may not elders be as well included in , and with that of deacons ? you have seen the name of deacon to have been sufficiently comprehensive of more , and greater than they . 2. or if elders be supposed to be included in that of bishops : let that suffice and satisfie , without excluding bishops : for shall elders included , and not named , exclude bishops , which are expresly named ? 3. or if presbyters be there signified in those many bishops yet was there one chief bishop over all , which was epaphroditus their apostle ( phil. 2. 25. ) of which theodoret q he calleth him apostle , to whom the charge of them was committed ; wherefore ( saith he ) it is manifest ) that they who in the beginning of the epistle were called bishops , were under him , they having the place of presbyters . but this text also , ( pit. 1. 5. 7. ) is pressed in favour of elders against bishops ; for elders ( so named , v. 5. ) are ( v. 7. termed bishops , adding , that there being elders in every city , therefore is that intended of elders properly , and not of bishops , who are not for every city . ( thus they ) 1. it is true , that in every city are to be elders , wheresoever is a meeting of people to be provided for ; so , are elders properly to be understood ; and the word city to be , in that case , strictly taken . 2. but as referring to bishops seats , the word city is to be understood more enlargedly ; not for every city , but such onely as are fit for it ; as places of note , and such as are extended in jurisdiction : we use to say ( traditionally ) that a bishops seat should be a city ; i. e. a place of note : so doth leo expound this very text , writing to the bishops of africa , r to appoint bishops in every city or town , is , ( saith he ) in the greater citres to place bishops , in the less to place priests : he in that , speaking according to the council of sardis ; it is not allowed saith that council ) that a bishop be appointed in every village , or smaller city , where one presbyter may suffice , for there , a bishop needs not be , that the name and authority of a bishop be not vilified : ( con. eard . c. 6. ) in every city , therefore , are to be elders ; and in every city fitting for it , a●e be to bishops . so , hath this been understood in the practice of the church accordingly . and well might crete be capable of many bishops , being an island of great extent , and populous . and titus his enlarged jurisdiction there , over many bishops , ( ordaining and appointing them where necessary , ) sheweth his power to have been archiepiscopal , a though he be stiled onely bishop of crete , as timothy bishop of ephesus ; ( so , in the poscript to those epistles ; ) and usual it is in the councils and elsewhere , to finde archbishops and patriarchs , under the name of bishops . and that cre●e had its archbishop and suffragans we also find . the archbishop of crete was nominated from gortyna its metropolis . dionysius of corinih ( who lived in the next age to the apostles ) writing to the church of gortyna , together with the rest of the churches of crete , commendeth philip 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , their bishop , for his singular piety and virtues s . the city of gnossus in crete , had pintus its bishop : and ( saith theodorus balsamo ) i have perused the ancient code of councils , and defind by the subscriptions , that basiil bishop of gortyna was present at the council of tru●lo . on the whole , therefore , from the community of the names between bishops and elders , is no ground for what is thence inferred , that therefore bishops and elders are the same , without dictinction of persons , offices , or degrees ; for , bishops are elders , and some elders are bishops , and both distinct , in degree , and dignity . but the the strength of the objection is it what concerns the work , common to bishops and elders : for if the same work be common to both , so as , what a bishop doth , that an elder doth also ; then what needs a distinction of persons and and offices ? these are not to be multiplied without necessity . and that the work is common , and the same , both to bishops and elders , is ( by that side ) instanced , in 1. ordination . 2. in overseeing , ( under this of overseeing , all the other pa●ts of the work are comprehended , as preaching , baptizing , &c. ) let these two , be therefore distinctly considered and examined ; whether in the work common to both bishops and e●ders , there be not sufficient to differente each from other . 1. as to ordination : to this , elders or presbyters pretend ; grounding on that , 1 tim. 4. 14. where the apostle exhorts timothy , not to neglect the gift which was given him by prophesie , with the laying on of the hands of the presbyterie . here ( say they ) presbyters ordain . 1. but ●et them take all together ; for doth not the same apostle say also to timothy , i put thee in remembrance , that thou stir up the gift of god which is in thee by the putting on of my hands ? ( 2 tim. 1. 6. ) here , we finde another hand ( the apostles ) beside those hands of presbyters imposed on timothy ; therefore , not the hands of presbyters alone : where therefore their hand onely is in the work , there is another yet wanting ; and the work short without it ; ( the case of necessity excepted . ) 2. ordination , must be granted to have been in the apostles primarily , and principally ; and not in elders or presbyters principally ; ( they but acting with the apostles , and that but subordinately : ) by my hand , saith the apostle ( ( 2 tim. 1. 6. ) with the hands of the presbytery ( 1 tim. 4. 14. ) it is by the apostles hand principally , and but with the other , in way of approbation . therefore , is the charge of oedination given principally to timothy , that he lay not hands suddenly on any ; so not to be partaker of other mens sins t : there , presbyters are not named , not as not assisting , but as onely assisting , and not as principals . it is , be not thou partaker of other mens sins ; not , be not ye , ( speaking of presbyters . ) so , you finde it here also as to titus ; to him is that work committed principally and in chief : i left thee ( titus ) in crete , that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting , and that thou shouldest orvain elders in every city , as i have appointed thee v . so is it to be understood , as to others , in like place with timothy and titus . bishops ordain others joyning with them . bishops will not do it without others ; and others must not do it without bishops ; concur elders may , but act in it alone , they must not : the contrary ( where necessity is not ) is an unwarranted usurpation . yet in giving but an hand in the work , they will have all. such notwithstanding are to know , that there is another hand in that work , as beside theirs , so before theirs , and above them : theirs is onely with , not without bishops ; and bishops in that principally . so , for ordination : in which work ( common both to bishops and elders ) is ( you see ) sufficient , notwithstanding , ) to difference both , in degree and office. ii. see it also in the other part of the work , in which bishops and elders act also in common ; as preaching , baptizing , and ordering the flock committed to them ; so , are both overseers . this is granted in common to both bishops and elders ; yet so , as that this is in both , differently : and , so in bishops , as not in others . 1. it is true , that preaching , baptizing , ordering , and overseeing the flock , are incumbent on all ; but in inferior elders more restrainly ; with respect to place and persons ; they acting within precincts , and parishes , among their own people , and within their own districts onely . to these , and there , are they overseers ; and not otherwise : so as , for any such to take on him to oversee , and see what others without , do , or do not , is to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . x a bishop in anothers d●ccess , or a busie body in other mens matters ( so is that in our english rendred ; ) whereas , the same work is in the hands of bishops far otherwise ; who as they do it themselves , so is it in them , in way of superintendency , to see it done by others also . so the chief priests under the law ( whom the apostles , and afther them , bishops , represent ; ) they were overseers to others , that the work be done in manner and order , as did become . thus are bishops overseers to those other overseers ; the care of many churches being on them , as was the cure of all churches on the apostles ; whereas the care of particular churches ( this or that ) is onely on others . 2. although presbyters have power to preach , and do what belongs to their function , yet are they in acting that power , limited and ordered by the bishop . wherein , we are to distinguish ( as in the schools ) between power of order , and of jurisdiction ; power of order , presbyters receive in their ordination , to do what belongs to their function , to which they are thereby qualified : but the power of jurisdiction to act that their power of order as ●astors , that , a presbyter hath in his institution from the bishop , being , thereby , appointed to a charge and place , and licensed to discharge the duty of his calling , to which he was before qualified , and now enabled . tertullian saith , y that the chief priest ( which is the bishop ) hath the right of giving baptism , and then the presbyters and deacons , but yet not without the authority of the bishops . so also s. hierome ; z without power from the bishop , neither presbyter nor deacon hath right to baptize . every presbyter therefore hath power in common with a bishop , to preach and administer the sacraments in fulness , ( which an inferior order , a deacon cannot do ; ) yet , the exercise of that power , is subjected to , and regulated by the bishops authority , to be permitted , directed , restrained or suspended , as should be necessary . in which the bishops priviledge of jurisdiction over elders , is he from them eminently differenced . it was said of elders , that they have a power of jurisdiction ; ( understand it , of a power of spiritual and inward jurisdiction , in foro conscienciae , in the court of conscience ) so , as pastors of the flock , is committed to them , the seeding , ruling , teaching , reproving , binding sinners notoriously scandalous ; by denouncing gods judgements in the word , and ( while unreformed ) excluding from the sacrament ; and again loosing , and releasing penitents , by applying the gracious promises of the gospel , and readmiting them to the use of the ordinances . but , that jurisdiction which is in bishops , is more extended , and that , even over elders themselves . for as presbyters are in their ordination , qualified , and by their institution authorized , to their work ; so , are they , after , to behave themselves in that as becometh . it is in bishops ( who are overseers of those overseers ) to expect and exact that from them authoritatively ; and on failing in duty , or manners , ( as to life , and conversation , ) to reprove and punish also . in this , is episcopal jurisdiction given them apostolically , and over inferior elders particalarlarly , to which they are subjected . such was timothies power in ephesus ; a rebuke not an elder ; and , against an elder receive not an accusation , but before two , or three witnesses , them that sin rebuke before all , that others may fear : which words , rebuke not an elder ; is not a restraining , but an ordering that rebuke , that it be not lightly , or on slight grounds ( as in 1 tim. 5. 19 , 20. ) by which appears a jurisdiction in bishops , above elders , directive , coercive , and corective : which is epiphanius his interence on these words , against a presbyter , &c. therefore ( saith he ) presbyters are subject to the bishop as to their judge b . he is their judge , as to doctrine ; that thou mayest charge some that they teach no other doctrine , saith the apostle to timothy , 1 tim. 1. 3. ) and to titus ( tit. 3. 10. ) a man that is an heretick ofter the first and second admonition , reject ; judge also , as of their doctrine , what they teach ; so of their conversation , how they live , as you have heard in that of 1 tim. 1. 5 , 17 , 20 , 21. therefore is the angel of the church of ephesus ( timothies successor ) commended , that he could not bear with them that are evil , and had tryed them which say they are apostles , and are not , and had found them lyars ( rev. 2. 2. ) on the contrary , the angel of the church of thyratira is reproved for suffering such ( rev. 2. 20. ) so as , although there be a community of names , ( in some cases ) between bishops and elders ( bishops are called , elders and elders bishops ; ) and notwithstanding that the worke also , be ( in a kind ) common ; yet is that community so differenced in both , that all pretences of elders , in that , for casting of bishops , as to their office , or divesting them of jurisdiction and dignity , is apparently inconsequent , and evil . for although the names of bishops and presbyters were confounded , and the work ( in a sort ) common to both , yet were not the offices of bishops and presbyters ever confounded until now . 1. and now to sum up al● ; you see the church under the new testamen ordered as before , in way of superiority and subordination ; and that apostolically appointed . so timothy in ephesus ; and titus in crete ; and others elsewhere in like manner ; they ordering persons and things appertaining to that sacred work , within their respective jurisdictions . 2. see those apostolically ordered to that care and charge in the church above others , to be by the apostles , dignified with their own name , ( that standing name of bishops . ) they standing also in their place and stead , and acting in their work , ( ordaining , overseeing , ordering , and correcting as is necessary . ) 3. what hath been by the apostles so ordered in the church , ( whose words christ would have to be observed as his own ; if they have kept my saying , they will keep yours also , john 15. 20. ) that , in this particularly , hath been by christ himself , the high priest approved . for , as the high priest , did christ appeare habited , being cloathed with a garment down to the feet , and girt vbout the paps with a golden girdle , c and also visiting his church ecclesiatim : each of the seven churches particularly , being by him inspected : d in that reproving what was amiss in any , and allowing , what was right . particularly , see that government which was ordered in each of those eminent churches , ( in ephesus and the other six ) under their respective angels , or chiefs , or bishops ; see that order ( i say ) in the church , approved of christ : for , the seven stars , ( the seven angels angels of those churches , their bishops ) were in christs right hand ( rev. 1. 16. 20. ) that is , under his care , and protection . and to those angels of the churches doth our lord direct himself principally in behalf of all under their charge ; expecting from them an accompt of the churches within their respective jurisdictions , each of them being responsible for all that was there , well , or otherwise . 4. lastly , what had been so ordered by the apostles , see it by the church received , and after continued throughout all ages from the beginning : whereby , what might ( seem ) doubtful in the first institution , may be cleared by observing what was of that understood , and after practised by the church accordingly : the church is the pillar and ground of truth ; e and what ( grounding on the scripture ) the church in all ages hath held from the beginning , that we may rely upon for truth . and how did the church understand the apostles appointing bishops and elders in the church for its government ? did they not understand it of bishops distinct from elders , and superior to them ? did they ever understand it of elders without bishops ? or of elders ruling in chief ? much less of lay-elders ? ( of which , is nothing to be found any where , in scripture or antiquity . ) let the constant practise of the church throushhout all ages be judge in that , how the apostles were therein understood . in which i shall use the words of judicious mr. hooker , f very strange it is ( saith he ) that such a discipline as ye ( elders ) speak of , should be taught by christ and his apostles in the word of god , and no church have found it out , nor received it till this present time ; contrariwise , the government against which ye bend your selves , be observed every where throughout all generations and ages of the christian world , no church ever perceiving the word of god to be against it ; ( adding ) we require you to finde out but one church upon the face of the whole earth , that hath been ordered by your discipline , or hath not been ordered by ours , ( that is to say ) by episcopal regiment sithence the time that the blessed apostles were 〈◊〉 conversant . this was mr. hookers challenge to that side in this case , and that , many years since : which hath never been to this day answered , onely by the sword ; and so , was it , indeed , put home to us perilously : antiquity is not to be despised , but that to be advised with , and submitted to in such cases . enquire of the former age and prepare thy self to the search of their fathers ( for we are but of yesterday and know nothing ) shall not they teach thee and tell thee , and utter words out of their hearts : said bildad , to job . 8. 8. 9. 10. so the lord directs by the prophet , thus saith the lord stand ye in the way and see , and ask for the old paths , where is the good way and walk therein and ye shall find rest for your soules : but they said we will not walke therein g which is even what these say in this ; refusing any such tryall in this dispute , well knowing themselves cast in it . but in matters of antiquitie to denye the credit of antiquitie in what is not contradicted by scripture , discovers one addicted to noveltie and singularity rather then to truth . let therefore our church levellers se to this ; who in such their schisme teare and rend the seamless garments of the church , and as a generation of vipers eat out , and through the bowels of their mother ; disturbing church unity and peace , drawing into factions , and filling all with confusions . herein let them see themselves in their forefathers ; for , such there were of old , under both testaments . se some under the old testament setting themselves even against what god himself had expresly ordered concerning the high priest-hood in aron h there , corah of the tribe of levy , raised a partie and faction of 250 princes of the assembly against moses and aron , having the confidence thus to tell them , yee take too much upon you , seing all the congregation are holy every one of them , and the lord is among them , wherefore then lift you your selves above the congregation of the lord ; but moses returns it to them again : yee take too much upon you yee sons of levy , seemeth it but a small thing unto you that the lord god of israel hath separated you from the congregation of israel to bring you near unto himself to do the service of the tabernacle of the lord , to stand before the congregation to minister unto them : and he hath brought thee neer unto him : and all thy brethren , the sons of levi with thee and seek ye the priest-hood also , so was it then . 2. and such corahs we find under the new testament also , of whom the apostle s. jude speaks with a woe i woe to them for they have gone in the way of cain and ran greedily after the error of balaam and perished in the gainsaying of core. where se them ranked with three notoriously wicked ; cain , and balaam , and corab : with cain for blood ; with balaam for covetousness , and with corah for faction , cain the accursed murderer of his brother , righteous abel : so was he the first persecuter of the church k balaam called on to curss the people of god. l and corah , a factious schismatique , to corahs schisme , are they moved , by balaams covetousnesss and ambition ; and to that , going on in the way of cain , in blood and cruelty . and for that see woe , and destruction ; begining with woe ( judgment denounced ) and ending with destruction ( judgment executed ) perishing in the gainsaying of core ; core ( or corah ) of all that faction , is alone mentioned ; others being but his followers in that wicked cause : his destruction being also more remarkable , whether as to those with him in that rebellion ; or as to those other two , notoriously wicked , ( balaam and cain , ) whose ends were not as of others , corah and his followers perishing not by an ordinary judgment like other men , the earth opening its mouth and swallowing up them , and theirs alive , in sight of all the people . m by the dreadfulness of the judgment , let the hainousness of the sin be estimated . 3. and , such have been our corah● also , ( authors of our late confusions and evills in church and state. ) by whom hath been in the church , and inlet and overflowing of blasphemies and of monstrous and pernicious doctrines ( horrible to be mentioned and not , in very confutations , to be remembred ) as if hell it self had broken loose ( the title of a book in which many of those abhominations are collected . ) and no wonder it should be so , church order and government having been , ( as it was ) cast off and trampled on . while that stood , all was well withus ; the face of our church was comely : and truth and peace secured , and the enemies to both , error , and schisme , not daring to shew themselves among us , the church is here militant ; so is it described n terrible as an army with banners ; with banner i. e. in order : so it is by the lxx . rendred 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 an army under its banners is in order : and in that order is both beauty and terror , and in that , security ; ( church security and church beauty is in order : ) thou art beautifull o my love as tirza , comely as ierusalem terrible as an army with banners ( cant. 6. 4. ) how pleasant is an army ranged under its banners ! so the church under its colours , leaders and officers , each in their place order , and degree . and as in that is beautie , so also , securitie ; securitie is implied where it is said to be terrible , that is , to enemies , ( to errors and heresies , enemies to truth ; and to schisme and faction , which are contrary to order and vnitie : ) these dare not appear while the church is under its government and in order ; each under his banners , in their order and place , being thereby ready to oppose what shall be contrary . it is otherwise , where order is not in the church but our banners cast down , and our chief leaders taken off ; what can be then 〈◊〉 deformitie for beautie and for order 〈◊〉 on ? what then but terror ? terror to our selves : ( so is , an army , in confusion , to it self terrible ; ) and thereby have enemies their advantages , about , and within ; therefore saith s. ierome . o the safety of the church dependeth on the dignity of the chief priest ( meaning the bishop ) to whom if power be not given , there must be as many schismes in the church ●s there are priests . so s. cyprian . p heresies or schismes have no other beginning but this , that gods priest ( meaning bishop ) is not obeyed . again ; q these be the beginnings of heretiques , these the risings and endeavours of ill minded schismaticks , that they please themselves and contemn their bishops with swelling pride , so do men depart from the church &c. and r hence do men rush into heresies and schismes when they speak evil of priests , and envy their bishops . all which we have found sadly in our late miserable church distractions . 2. and by those evils in the church did follow on our state also confusion and destruction . if the church be borne down , let not the state think to stand ; and we have seen evils designed to the state , carried on by attempting , first , on the church corahs opposition pretended principally against aron , rests not there , for others with corah , had their designes in that , against moses also : and in that against aron , came in moses immediately , they gathered themselves against moses and aron . and ( say they ) to moses ( even in a breach ) wilt thou make thy self altogether a prince over us : s therefore are both joyned by the apostle s. jude t with the gainsaying of core is a speaking evill also of dignities . in both , have we seen and felt the dismall effects of this church schisme . but blessed be god by whom : these breaches are now all made up and repaired both in church and state , by the happy restauration of his sacred majesty to his royall throne and government . 1. hereby , is settlement to the kingdoms . our judges being restored as at the first and our councellors as at the beginning . u 2. and thereby is our church also setled : so as at this day ( even this very day ) we have , and our eyes do behold among us here , such in the church , who sit and rule in chief , setting in order the things that are wanting and ordaining elders , ( bishops ) successively , as hath been apostolically appointed . in that , see we our church settlement . in church order and government , is church settlement ; which was that , in the words , first propounded with which i have now done . as to what remains of the text ( the qualifications of those persons to be called forth to this high and sacred calling and work ; ( of which you have much here v. 6. 7 , 8 , 9. ) of that i may not now speak ; time will not admit it nor needs it at present ; where , in the person now before us , and to be admitted into this sacred function , these qualification ; are already ; nor were it for me ( for me i say ) to shew it so . w i shall therefore conclude with the apostles clerum ( acts 20. ) wherein we have ( to our purpose , ) both exhortation and valediction . first exhortation : you have heard your place and honour asserted , see now your office and work : and in that your care and charge . x take heed unto your selves and to all the flock , over the which , the holy ghost hath made you overseers ( or bishops ) to feed the church of god which he hath purchased with his own blood . in that you have your charge ; ( see you now to the discharge . ) next , and last , follows an apostolical valediction , benediction , and prayer ; which shall be mine also , and with that i now conclude ; y and now brethren i commend you to god and to the word of his grace , which is able to build you up , and to give you an inheritance among all which are sanctified . finis . errata . epistle . p. 3. margin ep . p. 2. dele . p. 10. line 6. first dele p. 13. line 19. and dele p. 14. line 3. for the read this preface . p. 9. marg . ( z ) for contra marcione . 5. r. contra marcion . c. 5. p. 10. l. 2. for bishops r. being bishops p. 11. l. 20. for theire r. there p. 12. l. 20. for policarpus r. polycarpus l. 22. for clemets r. clemens p. 15. marg . ( g ) for 406. r. 306. ibid. marg . r. ( h ) camorar . in vita phil . molaneth sermon . p. 2. l. 7. for licaonica r. lycaonia ibid. marg . for act. 3. 12. r. tit. 3. 12. p. 7. marg . ( x ) for zech. 37. r. zech. 3. 7. p. 9. marg . ( d ) for nunb . 16. 3. r. numb ; 16. 3. ibid. marg . ( g ) for rev : 1. 6. 15. 10. r. rev : 1. 6 : p : 11. l. 28. legal dele p. 12. marg . ( r ) for acts. 1. 6. r. acts. 6. 1. p. 14. marg . ( a ) for phile 9. r. philem v. 9. p. 15. l. 26. for ii. r. i. p. 16. l. 1. sor for r. so l. 2. for apostles r. apostle l. 29. for is is r. is p. 17. l. 2. for in r. on p. 21. l. 29 , for as r. 〈◊〉 p. 22. marg . ( f ) for synod r. 6 : synod p. 23. l. 4. for conveening r. convening p. 25. l. 28. for conc . eard . 〈◊〉 . conc . sard. l. 30. for be to r. to be p. 26. l. 13. for nominated r. denominated p. 32. l. 18. for ofter r. after . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a47044-e140 a ric. hookers eccles. pol. pref. ep. p. 2● beza de grad . min. c. 11. b 2 kin. 16. 10 , 11. neh. 13. 14. notes for div a47044-e1740 a hos. 3. 12. b acts 12. 2. c gal. 1. 19. d acts 12. 17. e acts 15. 13 , &c. f 〈…〉 g 〈…〉 h annot. on acts 21. 18. i annot. on acts 12. ●7 . k hiero. catal. scrip. in sim. l niceph. l. 14. 〈…〉 euseb. l. 2. c. 24. doroth. in synop. hie. proëm . in math. & in catalog 〈◊〉 marco , & ad evagr. m cent. 1. l. 2. c. 10. in joh. evang. n beza in 1 tim. 5. 19 o euseb. l. 3. c. 4. p hier. catal . sc. q oecum . in 1 tim. 1. r oecum . in tit. 1. s conc. chalce . act . 11. t theod. balfamo . u euseb. l. 3. c. 22. ignat. ad anti ch . w euseb. l. 5. c. 6. & l. 3. c. 4. &c. 13. &c. 22. iren. l. 3. c. 3. hie. cata . in clement . x iren. l. 3. c. 3. euseb. l. 3. c. 35. hier. in catal . sc. y euseb. l. 3. c. 23. z tertul. de praescrip . c. 32. & l. 4. contra marcione . 5. a his majesties final answer concerning episco pac i. nov. 1. 1648 p. 9. b hist. confess : august per ●hytraeum c ibid pa. 109 , d apolog , confes , august per pap p , 137 , e acts , 11. 26. f hist. august . confess . per chytr . p. 389. g hist. august . confess ; p. 406. f beza de gra●minist . c. 20. k hier. zanch. de relig . cap. 25. l observat in c. 25. apho. 10. 11. m aug. haeres . 53. n epiph. haeres . 75. o id. ibid p zanch. observ . in c. 25. aphor. 10. 11. q psal. 94. 20. r 2. sam. 19. 14. notes for div a47044-e6800 a 2 cor. 11. 20. b rom. 15. 15. unto 22. c acts 3. 12. & in the proscript . d acts 20. 31. e 1 cor. 3. 6. f 1 cor. 4. 17. g 1 tim. 1. 2. h tit. 1. 5. i act● 14. 22. k 2 tim. postscript . l tit. postscript . doctr. m 1 cor. 14. 34 , 35. n 1 cor. 14. 33. o 1 cor. 12 p ver. 14 q ver. 17. r ver. 20. s ver. 21. t ver. 25. w 1 cor. 14. 33. x zac. 37. y 1 tim. 3. 15. z 1 chro. 23. 28 , 29 , 30 , 31 , 32. a 1 chro , 24. 7. to 19. num. 13 , 14 b numb . 16. 3. c 1 pet. 21. 9. d numb . 16. 3 : e 1 pet. 2 5 , 9. f exod. 19. 6. g exod. 19 6. rev. 1. 6. 15. 10. h prov. 16. 32. i 1 pet. 2. 5. k 2 chro. 26 , 16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , 20 , 21. k isa. 66. 21. l heb. 13. 10. m psal. 51. 19. n hos. 14. 2. o heb. 13. 15. p 1 cor. 9 , 13 , 14. q heb. 10 21. r acts 1. 6. 1. to 7. 〈◊〉 tim. 3. 10. s 2 ki. 19. 2 ita. 37. 2. t 1 cor. 12. 28. v 1 cor. 12. 28. w gal. 2. 7 x 2 cor. 11. 26. y mat. 28. 19 , 20. z zech. 1. 5 a phile. 9. b 2 tim. 4. 6. c 2 pet. 1. 14. d hi●r . ad evagr. e idem ad nepotianum . f cypr. l. 4. epist. 9. g hier. ad evagr. h bulling . in philip. 2. i ambros. in phil. 2. k hier. in phil. 2. l theod. in 1. tim. m acts 1. 17. n psalm 10● . 8. o acts 1. 2● . p acts 1. 25. q nehem. 11. 14. r acts 20. 28. s t it 1 5. t apud nos apostolorum locum tenent episcopi , apud eos , tertius est episcopus ; quod apud nos primum , apud illos est novissimum . hieronim . ep. 54. ad marceliam adversus montanum . 1. v 1 tim. 4. 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . w acts 1 , 17. x rom. 15. 8. y math. 15. 24. z 2 john. v. 1. a 3 john v. 1. b 1 pet. 5. 1 c acts 15. 2 , 4 , 6 , 22 , 23 & 16. 4. d ambr. in ephes. 4. e id. in 1 tim. 3. f s●n●d . constantin● . actione 17. g act. 18. h euseb. l. 5. c. 24. i ib. c. 25. k iur. 〈◊〉 90. l iraen . l. 3. c. 14. m annat . on phil. 1. 1. n acts 16. 12. o 2 cor. 9 1. p 1 thess. 4. 10. q theod. in phil. 2. r leo ad episc. afric . epist. 87. c. 2. s euseb. l. 4. c. 21. & 23 & 29. t 1 tim , 5. 22. v tit. 〈◊〉 . 5. x pet. 4. 15. 2. y tertul. de bapt. z hier. adver . lucif . a 1 tim. 5. 1 , 19 , 20. b epiphan . haeres . 75. c rev. 1. 13. d rev. 2. 3 e 1 tim. 3. 15. f rich-h●oker , of eccles. pol. preface n. 4. g jer. 6. 16. h numb . 16. 1 , 2 , 3 , 9 , 8 , 9 , 10. i jude 10. k math. 23. 35. l nam . 22. 56. m num. 16. 20 , 31 , 31 , 32 , 33 , 34. n cant. 6. 4 , 10. o here advers . lucifer . p cypr. 〈◊〉 . 1. epist. 3. q id. l. 3. epist. 5. r id. scr. 2. de zel● & li 〈◊〉 . s numb . 16. 3. 11. 13. t jude v. 8. 11. u is. 1. 26. w flaternam ut propriam tacere gloriam est modestie senec. x acts. 20. 28. y v. 32. christ on his throne. or, christs church-government briefly laid downe and how it ought to bee set up in all christian congregations. resolved in sundry cases of conscience. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a04417 of text s107732 in the english short title catalog (stc 14541). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 78 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 46 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a04417 stc 14541 estc s107732 99843428 99843428 8160 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a04417) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 8160) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1475-1640 ; 743:11) christ on his throne. or, christs church-government briefly laid downe and how it ought to bee set up in all christian congregations. resolved in sundry cases of conscience. burton, henry, 1578-1648, attributed name. [12], 78, [2] p. printed [by richard hearne?], [london] : in the year 1640. sometimes attributed to henry burton. printer's name conjectured by stc. the last leaf is blank. reproduction of the original in the british library. eng catholic church -controversial literature. church polity -early works to 1800. a04417 s107732 (stc 14541). civilwar no christ on his throne. or, christs church-government briefly laid downe; and how it ought to bee set up in all christian congregations. resol [no entry] 1640 14351 5 30 0 0 0 0 24 c the rate of 24 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2004-06 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-06 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-07 rachel losh sampled and proofread 2004-07 rachel losh text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion christ on his throne . or , christs church-government briefly laid downe ; and how it ought to bee set up in all christian congregations . resolved in sundry cases of conscience . ier. 6. 16. thus saith the lord ; stand ye in the wayes , and see and aske for the old paths , where is the good way , and walk therein , and ye shall finde rest for your soules . lvke 19. 27. but those mine enemies , which would not that i should raigne over them , bring them hither and slay them before me . printed in the yeare 1640. the preface to the reader . it is an observation as true as antient , that such workes of god as are done immediatly by himselfe alone , though for their excellent greatnesse farre surpassing not onely mans apprehension , but even admiration it selfe , yet are done by him without any rubbe or difficulty at all . such was that glorious and magnificall worke of creation . but such workes as god doth by instrumentall meanes , as by man , the greater they be , the greater difficulties they are attended with , and meet with many impediments . and this is most seene in great and generall reformations of churches or states . even christ himselfe , the onely potentate , the mighty god , when hee came to restore and re-erect the tabernacle of david , which was fallen downe , to wit , his spirituall temple or church , what opposition did hee meet withall ? what sweat did it cost him , before hee could finish this glorious and wondrous worke ? in which respect the antients were wont to say , that god with his word alone created the world ; but it cost the life of his onely begotten sonne to redeeme the world for this was opposed by devills and men . and so it was with the type of redemption , israels deliverance from egypt , where gods mighty wonders and plagues upon egypt , found a proud and hard hearted pharaoh , with his blinde egyptians obstinately resisting to the very last . so in the reparation of the temple in jerusalem , there wanted not most malignant spirits , envious men , is tatnai , shether boznai , tobiah , and sanballat , who mocked and accused the iewes to the king , and by force sought to hinder the worke . and therefore can wee wonder , when in the proceeding of so great a worke of reformation as we see begun in our dayes ( nothing inferior ( all circumstances considered ) to that deliverance from egypt , or to the restauration of religion after babylons captivity ) difficulties and impediments both great and many have and doe interpose themselves ? which when wee see wee should not be discouraged ; for discouragement in such cases is an argument and consequent of a mind too much relying upon outward meanes , which while they prosper , they are as a good gale filling the sayles of our hope to attaine the wished port. but when an adverse winde begins but to whistle a little up , we are afflicted , and are ready to cast away our hope , being left as a ship without an anchor floating , and without a rudder driven with every winde , ready to bee split on every rocke or shelfe . but in such a case , we must , as in the first place look up unto god the great master of the winds , yea and mover of the mindes of the violent men : so herein behold and observe the beaten wayes of the lord , how hee is pleased in all such great works to suffer himselfe and his people to bee opposed . and this he doth for speciall reasons , as to shew forth the deepe wisdome of his providence , in circumventing his adversaries , to crosse and thwart them even in those great and good workes which himselfe will have to be done , and certainly purposeth to accomplish , & which he calleth them unto , and commandeth them to doe , that so he may take them off from trusting in the outward meanes , though never so faire , and might teach them still and stedfastly to trust in his helpe , in his strength , in his faithfulnes , and not to cease to call upon him and depend on his promise , who will certainely save , and fully answer the prayers of his people , and in the happy issue of the work , that his glory may in all shine forth the more clearely , when nothing shall be left in man to glory in , but that we may give all the honour and praise of the worke to him alone . againe , in all such great workes of generall reformation , especially of religion , the difficulties prove to be the greater , by how much the vices and corruptions to be purged out ( as we see in naturall bodies ) are and have been of longer continuance , and such also as have received strength ( under pretence at least ) even from the lawes themselves , and by universall consent of the whole state . nor only this , but there is also in our natures a kinde of antipathy against that purity and power of religion , which ought to be the maine end that all true reformations should aime at . and besides all this , although the corruptions be so grosse , and of so high a nature , as they proclaime themselves intollerable grievances , no longer to bee borne , but doe by a kinde of necessity presse to a reformation : yet there stands so great a gulfe in the way , as untill it be removed , or so made up , as to be made passable , it will be found no easie matter to compasse so great a worke . now this gulfe is ignorance , and that of a long standing , contracted partly through a generall security and sloth , and partly through the want of meanes , while through the subtilty of the prelates , and cowardise of their inferiors , the light hath been put under a bushel . so as though the sense of our aegyptian burthens hath at length let us see in a great measure our misery , yea , and though god in his great mercy hath put into our hands such an opportunity of reformation , even armed with a kinde of necessity to worke it : yet how unresolved are many men of the manner and measure of this reformation , and what god requires at our hands herein ? yet can we not be otherwise perswaded , but that all good men would joyne together , quickly to goe through with this great worke , did they but apprehend it to bee as well a matter of conscience , as of grievance . for which cause , i have in these straits of time , thought it one part of my duty which i owe unto christ , and to his church , to propound , and briefly to resolve ( as god hath enabled me ) some important cases of conscience , which ( hoping they may conduce to the furthering of the great businesse now in agitation concerning religion ) i have adventured most humbly to recommend unto the serious consideration of this most just , sage and grave senate , as to which not only i , but all the people of the land doe owe our best service , and for whose happy successe of all their grave counsels , we are all bound daily , and that in a more than ordinary manner to solicite ( as we still doe ) the throne of grace , that the spirit of christ may be abundantly poured forth upon this most noble assembly , in all wisdome , and understanding , and in all judgement , zeale , courage , constancy , unity , unamity in the love of the truth , that such a perfect reformation may be wrought as christ at this time calleth for , as his word appointeth , as all gods people every where thirst after , and as the whole antichristian faction is afraid of , that so , when christ alone shall be set upon his throne over our soules , to rule us according to his word , and to dwell among us by his spirit , the kings throne may be for ever established in justice and judgement , and gods people in this land may enjoy both inward and outward peace unto the day of christ , and so our posterity after us may blesse god , and for ever call this parliament , the blessed parliament . let the reader correct as here he sees cause . errata . page 4. line 1. reade 3. hundred . l. 11. blot out 1. p. 6. l. 12. r. possibly be . l. 20. r. as is usuall . p. 7. l. 10. r. may be proved . p. 11. l. 19. r. truly ancient . p. 16. l. 8. r. order sake . l. ult. r. of false . p. 20. l. 10. r. of prelates . p. 16. l. 11. r. forme of liturgie . p. 24. r. in the test. l. 26. r. commandements of men . p. 28. l. 23. r. grievances . p. 31. l. 18. r. accommodate . p. 34. l. 11. r. and is surest . p. 38. l. 9. r. out of the way . p. 50. l. 16. r. said articles . p. 66. l. 4. r. and lay . p. 67. l. 14. r. 〈◊〉 . cases of concience . case i. whether diocesan bishops ( as they are commonly called ) be by divine right . the answer is negative , they are not . the reasons are : first , because the scripture knoweth no such creatures as diocesan bishops ; for the bishops mentioned in scripture , are none other than presbyters , whereof one or moe were set over their several congregations respectively , as we clearly reade , tit. 1. 5 , 7. act. 20. 17 , ●8 . so act. 14. 23. compared with philip . 1. 1. so as presbyters & bishops in scripture are convertible termes ; every presbyter a bishop , and every bishop a presbyter . secondly , because all such prelaticall jurisdiction and domination as our diocesans usurpe and exercise , is expresly forbidden by christ himselfe , as mat. 20 , 25 , 26. mark . 10. 42 , 43. luke 22. 25 , 26. thirdly , because the apostles condemned all such jurisdiction and domination as our prelats use : as 2 cor. 1. 24. 2 cor. 11. 20. 2 thess. 2. 4. 1 pet. 5. 3. 3 joh. 9. 10. fourthly , because apostles themselves , whose successors prelats pretend to be , never used any such jurisdiction as the prelats doe , neither in ordination of ministers , nor in excommunication , ( both which they doe most grosly abuse ) nor in making of canons , or setting up or imposing of ceremonies , both of meer humane invention , which the apostles utterly condemned , gal. 4. 9. 10. col. 2. 8 , &c. fiftly , because the prelats are never able to prove by any demonstration from scripture , that their jurisdiction is of divine authority : their allegations are meere pervertings of scripture ; as they alledge first , christs ordaining twelve apostles , and seventy disciples ; here was an inequality ( say they ) ergo a superiority of jurisdiction . but neither can hee prove here any such authority , as they pretend , or much lesse any subordination of the seventy , unto the twelve ; for the twelve neither ordained nor sent forth the seventy . secondly , they alledge the post-scripts after the second epistle to timothy ; and after that to titus ; which say , that those two were bishops . but 't is cleare , that those postscripts are no part of the text , as beza well sheweth . nor are they to be found in the vulgar latine translation , which was at the least an hundred yeares after christ . timothy and titus were both evangelists , not resident anywhere , but as the apostles called them from country to country , as we read in pauls epistles : and if they were to bee called bishops , according to the scripture , they must have beene bishops over one congregation respectively . thirdly , they aledge those seven angels , 1 revel 2 & 3. these ( say they ) were seven bishops . this they can never prove . and if bishops , yet diocesans they were not , seeing for some hundreds of yeares after , there were no such diocesse extant . and our last translation , in the contents of the second chapter of the revelation calls those angels the ministers of those churches . and for the angel to be meant of one single man , doth imply many absurdities , as that god should destroy a whole church for one mans sake : for god threatneth the angell of ephesus , if hee repent not , to remove his candlesticke out of his place ; to wit , that whole church . but god never doth so ; there is not in all the whole scripture any one example , that god ever rooted out a whole state or church , generall or particular , for one mans sinne , be he magistrate or governor . and if god for one pretended prelates sin , should remove or destroy a whole church , as that of ephesus ; as there he threatens the angell , who alone is charged with one onely sinne , which was a declination from his first love : then what security or safety can the whole church or state of england long promise to it selfe , so long as it harboreth in the bosome and bowels thereof such a crew and confederacy of most notorious and apostatised prelates , who have not now declined in some degrees from the faith formerly professed , but have openly oppressed and persecuted the preachers and preaching of the gospel , and that even unto bloud ? and againe , to goe about to proove the lawfulnesse of prelacy by the word of god , from a word of a darke and figurative signification , against cleer and expresse testimonies of scripture to the contrary , is most absurd and too presumptuous . for , for angell here to signifie a prelate , cannot possibly , because the scripture elsewhere ( as before ) damneth all prelacy in the church of christ . and there be many other reasons to confute them , that these angells were no such bishops , other than scripture bishops , as aforesaid : and that which was spoken to one , was by a senechdochae spoken to all , as is usually in scripture , and cleare in all those seven epistles . sixtly , the wisest and learnedest of the prelats at this day among us , doe warily decline the scripture in this point , & dare not stand to their authority , as being point blanke against them : but they fly to custom and antiquity , as the papists doe for all their unwritten traditions . case ii. whether the next age immediately succeeding the apostles , be not a sufficient warrant for prelaticall jurisdiction , seeing it may be mooved ( say they ) that there were then bishops . the answer is negative : first , because it is not a sufficient warrant to build the government of the church upon any humaine example , which hath not expresse warrant from gods word . secondly , because those who were there called bishops , cannot be proved to have been diocesan bishops , or to have had or exercised such a jurisdiction as our prelates usurpe . thirdly , could that be proved , yet being not according unto , but directly against the scripture , we ought not to regard it . fourthly , the very next age after the apostles , produced many grosse errours and superstitions , as eusebius tells us , and as the apostles premonished , act. 20. 29. yea , they complained of it in their own times , while they yet lived : for the mysterie of iniquity ( saith paul ) doth already worke , &c. which mysterie was , that of prelacy , as appeares clearely from that text , where the man of sin who exalts himself over the church , is set forth as the head and top of that mysterie , namely of the hierarchy , which is and hath been the l●rna or source of all iniquity . and jerome who lived in the fourth century said , that prelation over the rest of the ministers , was a thing of humane presumption , and not of divine ordination : and though it was first devised for a remedy against schisme , yet it proved in time the greatest schisme that ever was , namely the schisme of antichrist , and all his crew of prelates from christ ; the hierarchy being a meer enmity against christs kingdome , betweene which two there is as great a chasma or gulfe as between paradise and hell . case iii. but seeing episcopacy is of very great and reverend antiquity ( as they say ) is it not best to reduce the present prelacy to the antient condition of bishops in the primitive church . no ; unlesse they can proove these bishops to bee such as gods word alloweth . wee reverence that antiquity which is joyned with verity : but antiquitie without verity is oldnesse of error , as said old tertullian . when one asked christ , if it were lawfull for a man to put away his wife for every cause ? christ gave no indulgence at all , but reduced that antient abuse among the iewes , to the primitive institution of god in paradise . secondly , the matter in hand is of higher moment , than to be regulated by any humane ordinance , or reduced to any antiquity , other than the scripture it selfe . for the thing here in question concernes no lesse than the honour of christs kingdome , and his royall prerogative in the government of his kingdome , as we shall further see . thirdly , that which is originally vicious , cannot by tract of time bee made good . custome , we see , hath not made prelates better , but worse and worse in all ages . an evil egge brings forth an evill bird . and christ saith , an evill tree cannot bring forth good fruit . and , every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit , shall bee hewen downe and cast into the fire . and every plant which my heavenly father hath not planted , shall be plucked up by the roots . and , either make the tree good , and the fruit good ; or make the tree evill , and the fruit evill . if therefore the tree of prelacie be originally , and in its owne nature evill , as having no foundation in scripture , as being none of gods planting , it ought to be so far from being a patterne for its antiquity , as it ought utterly to be rooted up , as being a novelty , and not antiquity : for that only is truly currant , which is antiently true . case iv. but if the prelacy be plucked up and quite taken away , what government shall be left for the church of god ? for resolution whereof wee are to consider these necessary things : first , that that government alone be set forth , which christ himselfe hath left us in his word . for who but the king and law-giver of his church and kingdome of grace , should give lawes , and appoint how it shall be governed ? secondly , we are not to think that christ who was the law-giver of the old testament , was not also the law-giver of the new , and hath left us sufficient direction therin for the government of his people both for faith and manners . now in the old testament all must bee done according to the pattterne shewed to moses in the mount , even to the least pin in the tabernacle . so also for the temple and the forme thereof , david received all in writing by the spirit of god , 1 chr. 28. 12. 19. no place is left , nor power given to men to invent any thing , or impose the least ceremony in the worship of god . so in the new testament is layd downe a perfect platforme of wholsome words , which is profitable for doctrine , for reproofe , for correction , for instruction in righteousnesse , that the man of god may be perfect , throughly furnished unto every good worke . case v. but we see great difference in mens opinions concerning that forme of government which christ hath left in his word ; what then shall we do in this case , or what is that forme of governement which we shall pitch upon ? for answere hereunto : first , however all such governement as is contrary unto , and expresly condemned in the word of god , such as the hierarchy is , ought in no case to be admitted or maintained . secondly , as wee cannnot doubt but that christ hath left an exact prescript forme of governement in his word , for the church of the new testament ; so we ought diligently , in the use of all good meanes , to enquire after that good old way , and to finde as much of it as wee can , and to follow what we know . thirdly , if after all our search , there be not a full agreement in all godly mens judgements , in some things which seem somwhat more difficult or doubtfull ; we must not therefore either reject so much as is cleare , or yet breake communion and fellowship with those churches which differ from us in judgement or practise , so long as they maintaine not any government which cannot be warranted by the word of god : holding that rule of the apostle , let us ( saith he ) as many as be perfect , be thus minded , god shall reveale even this unto you . neverthelesse , whereto we have already attained , let us walke by the same rule , let us mind the same thing . case vi . how can the church be without prelates , in these respects especially : 1. for ordaining of ministers . 2. for inflicting of censures . 3. for calling of synods . 4. for determining of doubts arising in matters of faith . 5. in appointing of ceremonies . 6. for orders sake . 7. for confirmation of children , 8. for dedication of churches . 9 for the forme of doctrine . for answer hereunto , first in generall , there is no need at all of any such officers in the church as are not of any divine institution , as prelats are not , as aforesaid : yea , such officers , in stead of any profitable usefulnesse , are most unprofitable and pernicious : as the lord saith to false prophets , i have not sent them , therfore they shall not profit this people at all . secondly and particularly , first , prelates are no way requisite or necessary for ordaining of ministers : first , because they ordaine rather a new order of priests , than true ministers ; for which cause the booke of ordination calls them priests : whereas true ministers are never called in the new testament priests . secondly , they ordaine no true ministers of the gospell ( if wee may beleeve their practise ) but rather a sort of dumbe priests : for when they have ordained a full minister , ( as they call it ) having put the bible into his hand , saying , take thou authority to preach the word of god ; yet for all this hee may not ; must not preach at all , till he have obtained the prelates license , which he must purchase for a good fee . again , they make such priests as are dumb dogs and cannot barke , being meere ignoramuses and sir john-lacke-latines ; abusing those words , receive thou the holy ghost : and , take thou authority to preach the word of god . and lastly , they make no true ministers of christ , seeing they bind all with the oath of canonicall obedience , to be subject to their lawlesse laws , in the execution of their ministry . secondly , there is no use nor need of prelates for inflicting of censures . their power & practise of excommunication is altogether unlawfull , a meere usurpation , and contrary to gods ordinance ; and that in many respects . first , because the prelate is not the pastor of that congregation whose member is cut off by excommunication . because the prelate doth it alone , hee or his surrogate ; and this perhaps either a lay-man , or a dumb priest , without any consent of the people . thirdly , he excommunicates a man for every triviall cause , & that without due summons , & rashly , and for his fee absolves him without any repentance or reformation , & without satisfaction to the people offended . whereas excōmunication is the highest censure , & is to be done by the minister & congregation joyntly , after much means used to reclaim the offēdor , & for grievous scandals ; & not to be restored without hearty repētance , in a sad , serious & solemn maner . lastly , if prelats for the causes here alledged be of no use for the high censure of excommunication , how much lesse need is there of thē for inflicting corporall or criminall punishment upon reputed delinquents , as deprivation of liberty by imprisonmēt , of the ministry by deprivation , degradation , suspēsion , deprivation of means and livelihood , by imposing of intolerable fines , and restraining men from the exercise of their particular calling , to the undoing of them and theirs . thirdly , for calling of synods , cannot this bee without a prelate ? may not this be by a law dormant , giving liberty when occasion shall be , to have a synod , for the better ordering whereof , a moderator for the time being is by votes elected ? fourthly , for determining of doubts arising in matters of faith , what need is there for prelats ? are they fit or competent iudges in such things ? yea , are they not herein egregious usurpers , presumptuous and arrogant men ? yea antichrists , in sitting thus in the temple of god , over mens consciences , as lords over mens faith ? is not this a meere evacuating of the authoritie and sufficiencie of the scripture , which is the sole judge and rule of faith ? yet this prelates presume to doe , and challenge as their proper right : so as in the twentieth article , which is of the authority of the church , these words have beene of later dayes foisted in , namely , that the church hath authority in controversies of faith . fiftly , neither in appointing of ceremonies are prelates needfull : yea , for prelates or church , or any humane power to ordaine and impose ceremonies to binde the consciences in the worship of god , this is expressely condemned and forbidden both by christ himselfe , and by the prophets , and by the apostles . man may not impose the least ceremony in gods worship : if hee doe , he therein denies christ , col. 2. 19. he holds not the head . and yet the aforesaid article boldly affirmes saying , the church hath power to decree rites and ceremonies . so as this article , whether meaning by church the prelates ( as they meane it ) or any other humane power , ought to be to christians no article of faith , or binding any mans conscience . sixtly , for orders sake : for what order-sake are prelates necessary , or any way requisit ? what order they keep all men know : & what order can there be in a babylonish goverment , as the prelatical altogether is ? 7. for confirmation of children : this also is a babylonish sacramēt ; as if it did confer some grace ex opere operato , or some vertue dropping out of the bishops lawn sleeve . indeed this confirmation is a pretty knack to win credit to the prelacy frō the blinde vulgar , which to everie wel taught christian is both superstitious and ridiculous . 8 for dedication of churches ; this is a most notorious romish , popish superstition , & is rather a meer prophanation , than any dedication , except it be to superstition & idolatry , as they at rome do use their temples : & they would make the world beleeve , that by their many superstitious ceremonies , in crossings , censings , adorations , & the like , which they use in their dedication , there goes forth a vertue , by which holynes is infused into the wals & pews , especially into their sacred chancel . ninthly , for the form of liturgy , if we goe no farther than our service booke , which is an extract out of romes latine service , missall , or masse-booke , as it is confessed in the booke of martyrs , the romane latine being turned into english : if there were no more in it than this , that it is the forme of romes worship , and so ( as king iames once called it ) an ill sayd masse , it might a little startle such christians , as hold that christianity to be the purest , which hath least conformitie with antichrist and his superstitiōs . for if wee be commanded to come out of rome , & to have no communion with her idolatrous service ; let it then be well considered , whether christians may with a good conscience be present at the english liturgy , which is for the maine , the masse turned into english . for although it be objected , that it is purged from the popish drosse , yet if it should be brought to the touchstone , or tried in the text , let the wisest then judge how free from popish drosse it is , when therein they shall finde romish superstitious ceremonies maintained and prest upon mens consciences , as the surplice , crosse in baptisme , kneeling at the sacrament , standing at the creed , attended with their severall significations , as if man had a power to set up any significant ceremonies in gods worship , when as wee finde all kinde of signes and ceremonies in gods service under the old testament , though ordained by god himselfe , to be utterly abolished by christ , and forbidden to christians under the new testament : and much more all such as are of humane invention : all which are of that nature , as the apostle cals them , the yoke of bondage , to such as are intangled therein ; exhorting all christians to stand fast in the libertie wherewith christ hath made us free . and col. 2. he plainly shewes all such ordinances to be an evacuation of christs death , and so an apostacie from christ . and no christian , i hope , will plead for the use of humane ordinances in gods worship , when christ hath abrogated all ceremonies of divine institution , and hath left no footstep for any one ceremonie in the new testament , and flatly condemns all commandements of men in gods service : it beeing also a strange presumption for any man to think , that either he hath authority to prescribe how god should bee worshipped , or that god should be pleased with any such will-worship ; when in stead of being pleased , hee saith , in vain they worship me , teaching for doctrine the comments of men . for surely with vaine worship god is neither pleased nor honoured . againe , seeing we are here fallen upon the consideration or examination of the service booke , let all wise hearted and well instructed schollers in christs schoole , that have learned the art of separating the pretious from the vile : but tell me what they think of apocryphall bookes , publiquely read in churches , as if they were the holy scriptures ? what of the whole letanie , so stuffed with tautologies or vain repetitions ? what of the prayer in the letanie and of the collect , wherein bishops or prelates are prayed for , being antichristian and false bishops ; and all other ministers are prayed for , as being the curates of those bishops : than which what can be a greater reproach and shame to the ministers of the church of england ? what of so many carvings of scriptures into epistles and gospels , with their severall collects , for the maintenance and celebration of saints days , called holydayes ? what of the lame and incongruous , yea senseles translations of those sundry scriptures with the psalmes ? what of prayers at the buriall of the dead ? what of churching of women , aliâs , their purification , as some call it , and which answers to that under the law ? what of priestly absolution ? with many more particulars , too long here to rehearse . and in a word , what of so many prayers injoyned to be read , enough to blunt the edge of any true devotion , and so to tyre out the strongest sided minister , as hee hath neither strength nor time left for gods ordinance , namely the preaching of the word . and ( to say the very truth ) this kind of long service was devised by the popes successively , to that very end , namely to entertaine the people with a blinde devotion , and to retaine them in ignorance , when now no roome was left for preaching , which was by this meanes thrust by the head and sholders out of their churches . and thus what a deale of pretious time is taken up with a long , dull , and dead forme of prayer , which might and ought to be spent to edification of gods people on the lords owne day , which should be sanctified not in humane devises , but in gods owne ordinances , to the glory of him who is the lord of the day . i say againe ( for i speake nothing definitively , as passing myne own private judgement of these things ) let this wise and grave senate ( now assembled for a thorow-reformation , and removall of all abuses and grievanand primarily in the matters of god and of christ , maturely judge . case vii . whether any set forme of a liturgie or publique prayer be necessarie to bee used in the publique worship of god ? for answer : indeed if it bee necessary to have unpreaching ministers , and dumb dogs over the people of the lord , who can nor preach nor pray , then it will bee no lesse necessary to have some form of booke prayers or liturgy for such to officiate by . and for this cause the prelates have had some reason to hold up their liturgy to the full , as without which there had beene nothing for their mutes to do in the church . now though dumbe priests have need of such a liturgy , yet it doth not follow , that therfore able godly ministers , that know how to fit their prayers to all such severall occasions as do continually present themselves ( which a set prayer in a booke cannot do ) should be tied to any such precise set forme . for otherwise , this were to quench the spirit of prayer , and to muzzle the mouth of prayer , and to stoppe the course of gods spirit , which doth wonderfully improve it self in all those both ministers and people , on whom god hath powred the spirit of grace and supplication , and who do by daily exercise grow unto such a habit of prayer , and which doth powre it selfe forth in such a life and power , as is not possible for any set read prayer to exercise or have . for true , fervent , effectuall prayer is that which is the hearts expression by the spirit of god . as the apostle saith , i will pray with my spirit . and ( phil. 19. ) prayer is supplied by the spirit of jesus christ . this is that prayer which is first in the heart , before it come to the mouth , and is dictated by gods spirit , before it be uttered with the lippes : whereas a read prayer is in the mouth before it can come unto the heart , which in prayer is a speaking unadvifedly with the lips , before the heart hath first digested and suggested the matter . this is an abortive birth which never had a right conception , but a godly minister that is best acquainted with the state of his flocke , and of the church of god , can accordingly so inlarge and apply his prayer , by the supply of gods spirit , as may be most usefull to the congregation , as beeing most occmmodate to their spirits , when they finde the matter of the prayer to be that , the want whereof they are most sencible of : so as there is here a concurrence of the spirits both of the minister and people , which causeth a prayer to bee so much the more effectuall , lively , powerfull , and operative , and that not onely with god , but in the hearts of all those whose joint praier it is . whereas a read prayer is in comparison , a dead and dull formal prayer , without any life or power either to prevaile with god , or to profit the people : as beeing such a prayer as suits only such readers as are destitute of the spirit of grace , and supplication , and of faith and sanctification , and therefore such as god regardeth not . so as a true minister of christ ought not to be tyed with the bonds and lines of a written forme of prayer that must bee read , forasmuch as hereby the spirit of prayer in him is bound up , and both he and the people of god deprived both of the benefit of such a gift , and of that profit also which the prevailing prayer of christs spirit procures of god . yea , not even a set written prayer which the minister makes , & saith by heart , though he reade it not , and though it bee better to say it by heart , than to read it out of a booke , yet is ▪ or can be so lively and powerfull as that prayer which is not tied to a set forme of words . from such a prayer as is uttered by heart ( as we say ) the memory is more exercised , than the understanding and affections within him ; there beeing now a suspension of that worke of the spirit of supplication and grace , which breatheth forth with a lively power in a conceived prayer , wherein not the memory so much , as the whole mind , soule , spirit , & affections , have their joint operation . but it may be objected , that the reformed protestant churches beyond the seas have their set formes of publique prayer and sacraments 'ts true : but i take it that the ministers are not tied to those forms , further than they will themselves . as we see the ministers of the kirke of scotland now in england , use no set formes of prayer , but doe discharge the duty of prayer with an excellent freedome of spirit , & with such an apt accommodation thereof to the present condition of the hearers , and of the state of gods church , as that it serves greatly to the edification and raising up of the spirits of gods people sympathising with it , and is first ( of all other kindes of prayer ) to speed with the prayer-hearing god , who best knowes the meaning and language of that spirit of his , by which such prayers are poured forth . and surely were this well exercised by our ministers in england , in publique , as i know it is by many both ministers & people in private , it would no doubt much facilitate and hasten the accomplishment of that great worke of a thorow-reformation , so happily begun , and hopefully proceeded in , if flesh and bloud bee not too much consulted with , and humane policy ( which should have no hand in setting out or authorising any devised forme of gods worship , imposed on the conscience ) too much relied upon . case viii . what is the most ready and easie way or method , of finding out or obtaining christs government ? for resolution : it is usuall with those that stand for the hierarchy , to stop all ways of finding this out , by laying many stumbling blocks in our way . but if we will goe roundly to worke , first of all , of necessity all false government , as that of the hierarchy , must be quite taken out of the way , as the maine stumbling blocke . as hee that intends to build a new house in the place where the old standeth , must first pull downe the old , and rase it from the very foundation , that hee may lay a new foundation to beare up the new fabricke . but because he that thus intends to build , doth usually make a draught or model of his house before named : so it is thought necessary by some , that a modell of christs government be first drawn up , according to which the new fabrick may be in a readinesse to bee erected presently upon the removal of the old . this indeed stands with good reason , especially for the satisfaction of all doubts , and for the better accommodation of the church , and as a preparation of the materialls to the more speedy setting forward of the worke of reformation and yet this i dare say , that if in the first place the hierarchy , with all the trumpery and baggage of their ceremonies & will-worship in gods service , were quite abandoned and taken away , so as the ground where these degenerate plants doe grow , were cleared and purged , that not a root of them were left , the work of reformation were more than halfe done ; so as christs governement would even sponte sua , of its owne accord come in , and be set up without the noyse of so much as a hammer ; especially in all such congregations where godly and discreet ministers are . yet not so , as that we can expect such a perfection at the first , specially in this land , which hath been so long pestered and corrupted with the tyrannous and licentious prophane government of the prelates , and where godly ministers are so scarse , and most men through long custome , and want of meanes ( as before ) are not , by reason of ignorance ( though perhaps too quicke sighted in worldly matters ) so well fitted to apprehend , and to entertain such an exact government as god requires , and his word prescribes . case ix . whether , though the prelacy with its usurped jurisdiction , lordships , tempralties , power , pompe , &c. be quite removed out of the wayes , yet it be not expedient at least , if not necessary , to retaine the name of bishops , as a title appointed to those who are to be the principall among , and above other ecclesiasticall persons in the government of the church ? for answer : first , we ought not to abuse those titles which the scripture appropriates and ties to the persons and office of the true pastors of the church , by impropriating them from the true owners , and transferring them to such , as at the best ( beeing considered as pastors over their severall congregations respectively ) have but a common right with other pastors , and no peculiar title as proper to themselves alone ▪ and wherefore shall such onely be still called bishops more than others ? as having the only oversight over all other churches , and their ministers , and that by being invested in a perpetuity of such a dignity ? what is this , but a clipping of those wings , and a payring of those clawes , which will in time grow againe . * can the aethyopian change his skinne ? or the leopard his spots ? can we so quickly forget , what spirit the spirituall ambition of these men is of ? or can we imagine that they will leave their old haunt , in frequenting the court , and in courting the favor of great ones ? and from whose corrupt flatteries not the eares of the best princes can plead an exemption ? and may wee not justly feare , that if but the stump of this banefull tree be left unstubd up by the roots , so as not so much as the bare long usurped name thereof do remaine , may not the root still spread it selfe under ground insencibly ? and the stem through the sent of water put forth such sprouts and fruits , as by the bitternesse thereof therof the whole land may be troubled ? and may it not be just with god , yet againe to bring more plagues upon this state , by its suffering of such miscreant remainders , when hee had given so faire an opportunity to cut them off , root and branch ? did not saul for sparing one agag lose his kingdome ? and did not ahab for sparing the life of his false brother benhadad lose his owne life ? and were not those canaanites thornes and prickes in the israelites eyes and sides ? nor is it so small a matter to alienate the property of a name or title from the right owners , to whom alone god hath made it peculiar and proper : for such an alienation is an alteration not onely of the true property of the name , but also of the nature of that office to which it was first given of god . for ( as is shewed before ) the name of bishop is proper quarto modo , to every pastor over that congregation to which hee is lawfully called : and the name episcopus , or in english , bishop or over-seer , sets forth the office of such a pastor over his flocke . so as to take away this name from the pastor , and to appropriate it to one single man set over other ministers , to wit , one that is by man stiled and denominated a diocesan bishop ; what is this but utterly to pervert & overthrow christs ordinance , and the nature of his true church , and the office of a true pastor , who being stripped of his proper title , is withall stript of his office , and so of his flock , wherof another now is made the overseer or bishop , and the title and office of a curate onely is left him , according to the collect for bishops and curates . or if there be a mentall reservation to every minister of a congregation , of the office of pastorship ; yet when the title of bishop is given to one above him , even thus also is an invasion made upon christs owne title and prerogative , who is the onely {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} the chiefe shepheard or chiefe bishop of his church , besides whom and above whom all the pastors acknowledge none . and if of pastors , some onely be called bishops , and the rest not , here also christs sheepehooke is wrung out of his hand , as where he is called the shepheard and bishop of our soules . so easie a thing it is by the alienation or impropriation of a name , to set up such an office and government in the church , as wherby christs government & the proper office of his true ministers , are cast to the ground & trampled under foot . moreover , if ever this governement of bishops , falsly so called , shall bee set up or continued in maner aforesaid , yet farre bee it from those worthies of the land , whose justice is so cleare and unpartiall in other things , and namely in the cutting off of all monopolies in the civill state , to erect or ratifie , or any way to countenance such a monopoly in christs kingdome , so derogatory to his incommunicable prerogative , and to that stile and office wherein he hath so highly dignified and intrusted all faithful ministers . for what a monopoly is this , to take away the title wherein the office of all true pastors is comprehended , and to transfer it to one alone among many ? ob. but here it may be objected , that the reformed churches beyond the seas , as even geneva it selfe , have their overseers , which is a title and office equivalent to our diocesan bishops , episcopus signifying an overseer : why then is it not as lawfull to have the like in england ? i answer : the case is farre different ; for such overseers or moderators , as in other reformed churches they are called ( as in the kirke of scotland ) are chosen by the ministers and elders , and that but for one yeare , and whose office is to call the synods at certaine fixed times , and to collect the votes , & the like . but some say , that our usurping bishops shall bee perpetuall for their lives ; and how farre the power of their place and dignity may be extended , especially when they have their election from the court , either immediate and absolute per se , or by the means of a conge de lier , as whom so designed above , the ministers of the diocesse ( in stead of the deane and chapter ) are bound to elect . or if they be but triennial , & so to come under the visitation of a trienniall parliament ; yet who knows but such spirits may so work as in time to make parliaments as geason as heretofore ? when some of them have confessed , that they never dreamed to see a parliament againe . or if they shall be continued from three yeare to three yeare , yet this is also more than is used in forreine reformed churches ▪ and however , for them to retaine the name of bishop still ( as before ) is against gods word , and not onely derogatory to christs true ministers for the present , but also very prejudiciall to their liberty , when such bishops holding their favor in court , and their neerenesse to the chaire of state , may by that means grow awfull to those their curates , among whom some , and perhaps too many , may be found ready to prostitute their officiousnesse unto their bishop , in stead of christ , out of a hope to be made the heires apparant of the bishopricke ; which though it be now cropt and deplumed , yet will be still a bait for ambition , which must be doing , and will rather play small game than sit out . all which considered , i leave it to the wise to judge what may bee the consequents thereof , & whether by this means either we or our children may come to see as great corruption both in doctrine and manners , as now we doe . for ( as i sayd before ) the time may come , when god in his justice may deny this state the like opportunity ( so armed with a necessity of reformation , as we neither could have wished , nor any more can hope for ) to reforme episcopall insolencie . or suppose a possibility of prelates to become no worse than as the parliament shall leave them , yet the least rag of prelacie making a rent in christs coat , ( as it beeing the head of such a government as is condemned by the word of god ) ought no more to be pieced to christs livery , seeing it destroyeth christian liberty , both in ministers and people . and all this ( i say ) ariseth from the very name of bishop so misplaced ; for which cause it ought to be with the whole bishopricke utterly extirped ; and that no lesse , than the heathen romans rooted out the very name of the tarquins , for the tiranny which they had exercised . case x. whether the whole hierarchy being abolished , the 39 articles which were agreed upon in 62 , by the archbishops and bishops , &c. in both provinces , doe any longer binde ? or that ministers are bound to subscribe unto them ? i answer : first , that these 39 articles taken conjunctim together , no man can with a good conscience , rightly informed , subscribe unto them . for secondly , there be some of those articles which are very false ; as article 20 , which saith , the church hath power to decree rites and ceremonies , and authority in controversies of faith . both which are false ( as before is noted ) and were added since the same article was first made in king edward the sixt his dayes . againe the 36 article is no lesse false , which saith , the booke of ordination of archbishops and bishops ; and ordering of priests , &c. doth containe all things necessary to such consecration and ordering . neither hath it anything that of it selfe is superstious and ungodly . and therefore all so consecrated and ordered according to the rites prescribed , &c. wee decree to bee rightly orderly , and lawfully consecrated and ordered . now to this article all ministers subscribe , although they be false bishops consecrated after the order of rome ; and false priests that are by false bishops so ordered . thirdly , art. 3. it is sayd , as christ died for us , and was buried ; so is it to be beleeved that he went down into hell . which going downe into hell , imports a locall going downe into the place of hell ; which hath no proof in scripture , nor holds any proportion or analogie of faith , but crosseth the truth of scripture , and the current of all sound interpreters , and therefore not to bee beleeved as christs death and buriall . fourthly , some articles are made of late by the enemies of grace , the prelates , of so doubtfull and double a sence ( as those especially about grace and freewill ) that they have procured a declaration prefixed before the articles , in the kings name , prohibiting the free preaching of those points according to the scriptures . so as ministers canot resolve what it is they subscribe unto in the sayd article . and therefore it is necessary that the said false articles be wholly expunged , and the doubtful ( as they pretend ) more fully explained ; and so the said declaration prefixed , taken away . case xi . now all this done , and the whole antichristian yoke in the prelacy , with the burthen of all their rites and ceremonies removed from christians neckes : what is that particular form of government which is to be set up ? for answer : first we premised something hereof in generall , namely , that christs governement alone is to be set up in all true christian congregations , and so his yoke to be borne , as our glory , upon our neckes . but secondly , for further , and a more particular unfolding of this government of christ over every true church or congregation : first , we are to enquire what the true church of christ is . and secondly , what is that governement which christ hath appointed over every such church . for the first : a true church of christ is a congregation of true beleevers men and women , who by the word of god preached , are separated from the world , and the reigning lusts thereof , and declared to be such by the open profession of the true and right faith , and by the conversation of christian life conformable thereunto . such is a particular visible true church or congregation , and so is ( as farre as wee can judge ) a true branch of the holy catholique church , which is invisible , comprehending the number of gods elect , and is apprehended only by faith , & not by sight . now every such particular congregation as aforesaid , consisting of professed beleevers of the knowne truth of god , according to which they frame the course of their life and conversation , is in it selfe an absolute church , whose onely governor for matters of faith , and the true worship of god , is iesus christ . he it is that as king reigneth in this congregation , and in all the members therof , they acknowledge none other governor for matters of religion , but christ onely . for herein stands his kingly office : and the laws by which this king reigneth , and governeth his church , is his written word . and his vicegerent , by whom christ is alwayes present with every one of his severall congregations , is the holy ghost , which who so hath not is none of christs . now having thus defined what a true church of christ is , namely a congregation professing the known true faith , every member thereof being able in some measure to give a reason of the maine points of faith , and to make proofe of their profession by walking in a holy course of life : hence it appeares who they be that are not admitted to bee members of this congregation or church of christ , therein to participate of the holy sacrament , untill their repentance and reformation ; namely all ignorant and prophane persons , which neither beleeve a right , nor live accordingly . for the congregation of christ is called the communion of saints , being sanctified by faith in christ , and by his word and spirit . the second thing is , to enquire and consider how this church of christ is to be governed . to finde this out is no difficulty . first , sure it is , that none but christ is supreme and immediate lord , king , and governor of his church , whether of the catholique , or of every particular church or congregation rightly constituted ( as aforesaid ) so as no power on earth hath any authority to prescribe lawes for the governement of this church , whether for doctrine or discipline , whether for faith or worship , but onely christ , whose written word and law is the onely rule of this government ; which law all princes ( who are therefore called custodes utriusque tabulae ) are bound by him , whose vicegerents they are , to see well observed both by ministers and people . here then wee will speake of the officers which christ hath appointed over every christian congregation : and those are either ministers or other officers of the people . first for the ministers , they are called by sundry titles , as a bishops or presbyters , b pastors and teachers , c ministers , d labourers , and the like . their principall office is to * pray to preach the word to administer the sacraments . and these ministers , however stiled in scripture , are all of equall authority , not one over another , nor one over many , nor many over one , each being in his place & peculiar congregation under christ alone , as the king of his church , to whom he is accountable : and under christ , to the civill magistrate , as being a subject . but here a question may be moved , whether a synod of ministers , or of the churches , have not power over any one minister , and so over all the congregations , either to censure particular persons or congregations , or to prescribe and impose orders , rites , canons , or the like ? for answer : some are of opinion that a synod hath authoritie to binde particular churches to such rites as they shall prescribe and impose . and they alledge that synod or assembly of the apostles , wherein were determined certaine observances which they sent and imposed on the churches of the new convert gentiles , as necessary for them to observe , some wherof were iewish ceremonies . hence they conclude , that a synod collected of the churches , hath power over particular churches , to ordaine and impose ceremonies as necessary to bee observed . but this act of the apostles is no president or patterne for succeeding ages . the reason is first , because the apostles were inspired with the holy ghost , which wholly guided them in all matters of the church ; so as in that their determination they say expressely , it seemed good to the holy ghost and to us , to lay upon you no greater burthen . now what synod in any age after the apostles could ever say , that they were infallibly inspired and assisted by the holy ghost ? if any can infallibly assure me hereof , that a synod after the apostles cannot erre , but that they can truly say , it pleased the holy ghost and us : then i will obey all their decrees . secondly , that injunction of the holy ghost and of the apostles was but {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , for that present time , for the avoyding of offences betweene iewes and gentiles , who in every city conversed together : which james the apostle alledgeth for the only reason of that determination . but we reade not in all the writings of the apostles afterward , that they either ordained or imposed the least rite or ceremonie to bee observed in any of the churches of god ; yea , they expressely condemned all such ordinances , as before is shewed . but here another question ariseth : if particular congregations be not subject to bee ruled by synods , or the like jurisdiction , what order can be expected , or what meanes is left for ordaining of ministers over every congregation ? for answer , briefely : first for order ; what better or surer order can be , than that which christs word hath set down ? and if in any thing doubts arise in a congregation , they have other congregations with the ministers to consult with . for although every particular congregation be an absolute church , having no jurisdiction over it but christs alone , and that immediatly ; yet it is not separated or divided from the neighbour churches , so as that it should not hold communion with them , or a consociation , communicating together in all mutuall offices of helpe , counsel , comfort , resolution in doubts , advice in difficulties , and the like : this beeing the priviledge and benefit of the communion of saints , which is not limited to one particular congregation onely within it selfe , but comprehendeth all the members of the catholique church , wheresoever they are visible in any assemblies : so as if any one congregation fall into an errour , it is by others to bee admonished and conuinced , that it may be reformed . if it fall into any foule heresie ( which yet is not easie in a well constituted church ) it must bee dealt withall accordingly as the case shal require : the churches assembled must labour to reduce it , and if after all meanes it proove incorrigible , when there is no remedie they must renounce communion with that congregation . and if that congregation shall bee further troublesome , in breaking the peace of the churches , or of the civil state , it is liable to such punishments as by the good lawes of the land are allotted to such and such offences . for although no power on earth hath power over mens consciences in matters of religion , yet god hath in his ordinance set up civil powers and magistrates , whom he hath armed with authority to punish such as doe openly transgresse either the lawes of god , or the just lawes of the civil state . for the magistrate is gods minister , both for the punishment of evill doers , and for the praise and protection of them that doe well . and for the better and more easie way for the civill power to take cognisance of things of that nature , it will become the duty of all the churches , in a synod or otherwise to convince the parties offending , and if obstinate , to complaine of them to the civill magistrate . thus it is with a congregation as it stands in relation to other churches , and in a subjection to the civill power . now for a congregation considered in it selfe , if a member therof do offend in any kinde , what is to be done , or who shall censure it ? i answer : if the offence bee against the law of christ , or his governement over that congregation , then the same congregation hath power given from christ to censure the delinquent ; when after all due means he remains obstinate and incorrigible ; as 1 cor. 5. but if the offence be against the law of the civil state , he is then punishable according to that law , by the civill magistrate . but here another question ariseth , whether the minister or pastor of the congregation alone have power of censure committed unto him , or together with the congregation ? i answer : together with the congregation ; which therefore electeth certaine officers , such as are most eminent for integrity , gravity , holinesse , knowledge , and judgement in matters of the congregation , to represent the congregation , and to assist the minister in government and correction of manners : and who fitter to take knowledge of home-delinquents , than such as best know them ? and who are likeliest to use mercy , compassion , and moderation in such censures , and better means of the delinquents amendment , than such as are their godly neighbours ? and these officers , either for the gravity of their yeares or manners , are called elders . the * prelats cannot endure the name of lay elders ; but in scripture we find them . for {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , an elder , is taken both for a minister of the word , and for a lay elder , as they call it : as , 1 tim. 5. 17. let the elders that rule well , bee accounted worthy of double honor , especially they who labour in the word and doctrine . where elders plainly signifie both such as rule , and such as preach , distinct one from the other . so rom. 12. 6 , 7 , 8. he that ruleth is a distinct officer from him that teacheth & prophecieth . and so , 1 cor. 12. 28. after prophets or teachers , are set helps , governments , or helps in government , as our translation hath it . these governors then simply considered , were not ministers of the word , but lay men , as they call them . we could produce some antients that speake of these lay governors or seniors ; but at present for brevities sake wee omit them . the antient church of the iewes had such elders , as we reade , called masters of the synagogue , act. 13. 15. and if antiently ; in and after the apostles time , there were not such elders , how came it to passe afterward under antichrist , that the government of every particular congregation was delivered unto those of the laity , whom we call churchwardens and side men , who are to assist the minister in matters of the church , though not in matter of censure , which the prelacy hath wholly usurped and monopolized to it selfe , having thrust out and utterly exterminated , as much as in them lieth , the very name and memory of lay elders , had wee not some records thereof in the lasting monuments of the scripture ? yea , let the prelates tell us , how all that lay eldership ( as i may call it ) of chancellors , commissaries , and the rest , came to be set up , but to supply ( in some sort ) those antient lay elders , whom the apostles had set up , and whom antichrist puld down , as being the main hinderance of the setting up of his hierarchy ? for how had the prelacie mounted to that height of power over the whole church , had the lay elders still continued in governing , with godly ministers , the several congregations respectively ? so as the removing of the lay elders , and the bringing in of churchwardens and other lay officers into the church , all subject to the prelates jurisdiction , and made their sworne vassals , was the very up-setting of the antichristian throne in the temple of god . and this is that order of government , without which the prelates cry out , there is no order . whereas that order which the apostles left , in governing the church by ministers ann lay officers , is the onely true order . those words of christ , goe tell it to the church , doe shew , that censure of incorrigible faults was in the power of every congregation . so 1 cor. 5. 4 , 5. &c. in the second place , to the former question concerning the ordaining of ministers in every congregation , in case there be neither diocesan bishops , nor synods to perform it : i answer , first , that most men doe greatly mistake that here which they call ordination of ministers . the romanists have scrued it up to one of their seven sacraments , making the imposition of hands upon the priests head by the prelate , to be the outward signe of that inward grace , which ex opere operato ( as they say ) is conferred upon the priest . and even many protestants are of opinion , that ordination cannot be performed but by a prelate , or at least by ministers onely , as without whose imposition of hands it were no ordination , or as if it did confer such an order . whereas the prime and proper conferring of this order is by christ himselfe , inwardly calling and gifting a man for the work of the ministry . secondly then , what is that {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , ordaining and appointing of ministers ? and {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the imposition of hands , which the scripture speakes of ? i answer : {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , signifying properly a stretching out of the hand , it was used either in lifting up of the hands in token of sufferage in election of officers , or in stretching out of the hand upon the head of the man chosen , for confirmation . also when it was used by the apostles , it pleased god to bestow therwith the gifts of the holy ghost , and on some recovery of health . this was very frequent in the apostles times : but afterwards in successive ages there was no such gift annexed to the laying on of hands . secondly , therefore it was of use according to its antient and ordinary custome in sufferages in elections of officers , to declare assent and approbation of those for such and such places , when after prayer hands were layd on them . but by whom was this imposition of hands used at the choice of ministers ? i answer , by those who gave their sufferages or votes to the election ; and those were sometimes the congregation it selfe , and sometime others at their request joyning with them : as we reade , act. cap. 6. 5 , 6. and all ecclesiasticall stories tell us , that antiently the election of ministers was by every congregation respectively . so as to them also of right belonged the laying of their hands , as a token of their approbation and confirmation of him that was so chosen to that office . and though we reade in one place , that the apostle layd his hands upon timothy , as 2 tim. 1. 6. yet in another we reade , ( as 1 tim. 4. 14. ) that the presbyterie layd their hands upon him . which presbyterie comprehends as well the elders of the people , as those of the ministry . accordingly , wee exclude not the elders or ministers of other neighboring congregations from joyning in that worke , for assistance especially in prayer , for a blessing upon the new chosen minister . for so farre must we be from excluding any in this kinde , that wee highly commend consociation and communication of gifts for assistance , where it may be conveniently had . onely reserving to each congregation that peculiar interest and right , which every true church of christ hath in chusing their owne ministers , and other church officers . and this stands with good reason : for not onely antiquity both in and from the apostles times pleadeth for this , but even naturall reason and equity . for reason willeth that such as chuse should ratifie . secondly , those who give the maintenance should chuse the officer . thirdly , who have commonly better ministers than those congregations , that upon good advice and counsell chuse them themselves . fourthly , where is greater love betweene minister and people , than where the liberty of such a choyce is enjoyed . fiftly , what vertue at any time doth a prelates imposition of hands adde to ministers so ordained by him ? or what bee those ministers whom prelates usually place over the people ? and i would aske any reasonable christian , whether hee would not rather have the approbation , prayer , and imposition of hands , of the poorest godly man , than of the most glorious prelate ? yea , though hee were stiled even grace it selfe ? for as james saith , the effectuall fervent prayer of a righteous man prevaileth much . it is not sayd , the prayer of a great or learned man . case xii . how far may and ought true reformed christian congregations to hold communion among themselves ; and with other reformed churches ? for answer in generall : first in generall , it is agreeable to good and approved examples in scripture , to make firme leagues and faithfull covenants for the maintenance of the true faith and religion of christ . see for this , 2 chron. 15. 12 , 13. and chapter 34. 31 , 32 , 33. ezra 10. 3 , nehem. cap. 9. 38. severally , in particular : it stands both with christian piety and prudence , for all the members of a particular church or congregation , to enter into a firme covenant among themselves , to maintain a holy communion together in the profession of the truth , and practise of a holy life , as becommeth the communion of saints . thirdly , it stands with the like christian piety and prudence , to hold a sweet and inviolable bond and communion with all other churches or congregations rightly constituted , as we conceive , according to christs ordinance , and walking according unto it . fourthly , if there be any christian churches that doe in some small circumstances differ from us , in that forme of government which wee conceive and beleeve christ hath set up in his word , so as therein they may seem to come short of that exactnesse that is required , nor yet are able to attaine unto it , either in regard of some outward difficultie or human imperfection and frailty , the judgement being as yet not fully enlightned and perswaded ( concerning which the apostles rule is , let every man bee fully perswaded in his owne minde ) wee do notwithstanding not with-hold from them the right hand of fellowship ; but hold communion with them as the churches of christ , they holding the orthodox truth , and the substance of the government , which is suteable to the church of christ , and joyning with us against the common adversaries of the gospell : concluding with that excellent saying of our savior christ , they that are not against us , are on our part . the epilogve , or conclusion . having thus freely and faithfully ( though briefely , as the present straits of time would permit ) declared what i have and doe conceive and beleeve concerning christs kingdome , and that forme and frame of the government thereof in his church , as i finde it recorded in the scripture , whereof i am in my conscience fully perswaded : as my earnest prayer and trust is , that christ by his spirit and word will leade his into all truth necessary to salvation ; so my hope is , that however perhaps those things which i have here delivered according to the simplicity of my conscience , will not so bee relished of all , but that they wil seem bitter , especially to the ignorant and carnall minded , who savour not the things of christ : yet my confidence is , that all the wise hearted and wel affected to iesus christ ( for , if any man love not the lord iesus christ , ( that is , love not to have iesus christ set up as lord over their soules ) let him be anathema maranatha ) will embrace christs yoke , and to the uttermost of their power labour to advance his throne in all churches ; or if that , through sathans malice cannot bee effected , yet that they will set him up as sole lord and king over their owne soules , and so will joyne in communion with all those that doe or shall desire heere to serve iesus christ according to that purity of conscience which is required in every true christian ( as the apostle professed of himselfe ) and in that way wherein the name of christ shall bee most magnified , and his kingdome exalted heere on earth . and this shall the better be done , if a law be made this present parliament , that as antichrists kingdome in the prelacy shall and must be cast out , so christs kingdom may bee freely set up in this kingdome , while his people ( even as many as will ) are suffered freely to enjoy christs ordinances in their puritie , and so may at length recover that christian liberty wherewith christ hath made us free , and for which his precious bloud was poured forth , and whereof this land by the hierarchy hath beene till now deprived : it being our hearts desire , rather to live under christs governement in this our owne native countrey , than for want thereof , bee forced to flye into forreigne parts ; where how can wee so sweetely enjoy christ , without the bitter remembrance of our native soile , which wee shall never cease to wish worse unto , than to our owne soules . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a04417e-120 acts 15. 16. ezra 5. 6. nehem. 4. cum reflavit affligimur . cic. notes for div a04417e-500 so d. hall in his booke of episcopacie . 2 thess. 2. 7. mat. 19. 3. mat. 7. 17. mat. 15. 13. mat. 12. 33. 2 ti. 1. 13. & 3. 16. phil. 3. 15 , 16 ier. 23. 32. mat. 18. 17. & 1 cor. 5. mat. 15. 9. ecc. 29. 13. col. 2. 8. 18. vol. 2. p. 667. print . ed. 1631 gal. 4. 9 , 10. col. 2. 16. gal. 5. 1. 1 thess. 5. 1 cor. 14. 15 * ier. heb. 12. 1 sam. 1 king . 1 pet. 5. 4. 1 pet. 2. 25. rom. 8. act. 26. a act. 20. tit. 1. 5. 7. b eph. 4. 11. c luke . 1. 2. 2 cor. 11. 23. d luk. 10. 7. 1 cor. 3. 9. act. 6. 4. mat. 28. 20. act. 20. 7. mat. 20. 25 , 26. heb. 13. 17. quest . answ. act. 15. act. 15. 28. act. 15. 21. rom. 13. 1 pet. 2. 14. * d. hall , in his episcopacy by divine right . act. 8. 17. mar. 16. 18. iam. 5. 16. mark . 9. 40. notes for div a04417e-2970 1 cor. 16. 22. 2 tim. 1. 3. the agreement of the associated ministers & churches of the counties of cumberland, and vvestmerland: with something for explication and exhortation annexed. gilpin, richard, 1625-1700. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a86016 of text in the english short title catalog (thomason e498_3). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 149 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 31 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a86016 wing g774 thomason e498_3 99865192 99865192 117429 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a86016) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 117429) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 79:e498[3]) the agreement of the associated ministers & churches of the counties of cumberland, and vvestmerland: with something for explication and exhortation annexed. gilpin, richard, 1625-1700. [2], 59, [1] p. printed by t.l. for simon vvaterson, & are sold at the sign of the globe in pauls church-yard, and by richard scot, bookseller in carlisle, london : 1656. attributed to richard gilpin. titlepage in red and black. annotation on thomason copy: "august. 12". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng church polity -early works to 1800. great britain -church history -17th century -early works to 1800. great britain -history -commonwealth and protectorate, 1649-1660 -early works to 1800. a86016 (thomason e498_3). civilwar no the agreement of the associated ministers & churches of the counties of cumberland,: and vvestmerland: with something for explication and e gilpin, richard 1656 27161 8 160 0 0 0 0 62 d the rate of 62 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the d category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-07 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-07 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-03 elspeth healey sampled and proofread 2008-03 elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the agreement of the associated ministers & churches of the counties of cumberland , and vvestmerland : with something for explication and exhortation annexed . 1 cor. 1. 10 , 11 , 12 , 13. now i beseech you brethren , by the name of our lord iesus christ that ye all speak the same thing , and that there be no divisions among you : but that ye be perfectly joyned together in the same minde , and in the same judgment , &c. 1 cor. 3. 3 , 4. vvhereas there is among you envying , and strife , and divisions , are ye not carnal , and walk as men ? for while one saith , i am of paul , and another , i am of apollo ; are ye not carnal ? rom. 14. 19. let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace , and things wherewith one may edifie another . phil. 2. 4. look not every man on his own things ; but every man also on the things of others . rom. 16. 17 , 18. now i beseech you brethren , mark them which cause divisions , and offences , &c. and avoid them , &c. london , printed by of for ● vvaterson , & are sold at the sign of the globe in pauls church-yard , and by richard scot . bookseller in carlisle ▪ 1656. propositions agreed upon by the associated ministers of the covnties of cumberland , and vvestmerland . when we compare the present miseries and distempers with our former confident expectations of unitie , and reformation , our hearts bleed , and melt within us ; we are become a by-word to our adversaries , they clap their hands at us , saying , is this the city that men call the perfection of beauty ? piety is generally decayed , most men placing their religion in doting about questions which they understand not : prophaneness thrives through want of discipline ; error and blasphemie domineers ; jealousies , divisions , unmerciful revilings , and censurings , are fomented among brethren of the same houshold of faith ; the weak ones are discouraged and distracted by the multitude of opinions , and fierce opposition of each party , and that which is worst of all , gods honor suffers deeply , and the credit of religion is brought very lowe ; is this nothing to you , all yee that pass by ? though these things can never be sufficiently lamented ; yet seeing it is not sufficient barely to lament them , without indeavouring to heal them : and considering , that it is a duty incumbent upon all christians , ( according to their several places and abilities ) to promote the welfare of sion ; especially when wee have tasted so much of the bitterness of our divisions : and because a brotherly union hath so much of god in it , and consequently gives so much hope that god will take that course in establishing his church , when he shall arise to build ierusalem ; and seeing it is an unjustifyable pettishness and peevishness of spirit , to be averse from joyning together in any thing , because we cannot joyn in all things ; therefore we resolve ( setting aside all carnal interests , and casting our selves , with all our concernments , at the lords feet ) to walk together as far as we can for the present , not resting here , nor tying our selves from further progress in union , ( as the lord shall give light and satisfaction ) much less binding our selves from a submission to , and compliance with a more general accommodation , ( if any such thing should hereafter be agreed on ) which might be more sutable and fitted for the composure of the different principles of brethren throughout the nation . in order to the carrying on of this great work , wee lay down and assent unto these general rules , as the basis and foundation which must support and bear up our following agreement . 1. that in the exercise of discipline , it is not onely the most safe course , but also most conducing to brotherly union and satisfaction , that particular churches carry on as much of their work with joynt and mutual assistance , as they can with conveniency and edification , and as little as may be in their actings , to stand distinctly by themselves , and apart from each other . 2. that in matters of church discipline , those things which belong onely † ad melius esse , ought to be laid aside , both in respect of publication and practice , rather then that the churches peace should be hindered . 3. that where different principles lead to the same practice , wee may joyn together in that practice , reserving to each of us our own principles . 4. that where we can neither agree in principle , nor in practice , we are to bear with one another's differences , that are of a less and disputable nature , vvithout making them a ground of division amongst us . yet notwithstanding , we do not hereby binde up our selves from endeavouring to inform one another in those things wherein we differ , so that it be done with a spirit of love and meekness , and vvith resolutions to continue our brotherly amity and association , though in those particulars our differences should remain uncomposed . upon these grounds we agree as followeth . 1. seeing the lord hath called us out of his work , and hath imployed us as ambassadors , stewards , watchmen , and overseers , in his church , we resolve through his assistance , to endeavour the discharge of our duty and trust herein , unreservedly , and with all faithfulness , to the utmost of our power , though hereby vve hazard reproach , revilings , contempts , injuries , loss of friends , and maintenance , or whatsoever else may be dear to us . 2. to this end we resolve in the course of our ministery , to observe the temper , disposition , and capacity of the generality of the people , and to suit our selves not onely in our matter to the people's conditions , but also in our expressions to the people's apprehensions , that so our sermons may bee plain , piercing , seasonable , and profitable . 3. particularly , we resolve undauntedly ( and yet according to the rules of christian prudence ) to reprove the sins that most abound in our people , and shall mainly bend the force of our endeavours to convince men of their carnal security , to discover the rotten and deceitful props on which it is built , and to press them to the acceptance of christ according to the proffers of the gospel . 4. we will lay out our selves in keeping lectures ( as the seasons of the yeer will permit ) wherein we will more especially have regard to those places that are destitute of preaching . 5. we resolve to catechise and instruct the people committed to us , explaning to them the grounds of religion , that knowledge may increase among them ; and to this purpose we conceive it most fit to make use of the assemblies larger and shorter catechisms . 6. we resolve , besides the work of publike preaching , and catechising , to instruct them privately from house to house , ( so far as our publike work will permit ) that so we may have an opportunity of being more throughly acquainted with their state and condition , and of dealing with them more closely , and particularly , as occasion shal require , striving alwayes to improve our occasional discourses and commerce with them to that end , having our words seasoned with salt , that they may administer grace to the hearers . 7. forasmuch as affliction and sickness doth not onely call for ministerial help and advice in a more especial manner ; but also gives opportunity and advantage for counsel or reproof ; therefore wee resolve to be as diligent in visiting the sick and afflicted , as other labours , greatness of our charge , and ability to go abroad will suffer us ; and that not only the rich , and those that desire us , but also the poor , and those that send not for us . 8. seeing we are in scripture commanded to love all men , and as much as in us lieth , to follow peace with all ; and yet warned to reserve our brotherly kindness and delight for those that walk holily ; therefore we resolve in our society , as well as in dispencing of ordinances , to put a difference between the precious and the vile ; and though we intend not to deny that charity , help , civility and duty that we owe unto the scandalous , yet will we bestow our love of complacencie onely on those that order their conversations aright , lest by intimacie with wicked men , we strengthen the hands of evill doers , grieve the hearts of the godly , and ensnare our own souls . 9. seeing the sins of sabbath-breaking , swearing , fornication and drunkenness are so abominable in the sight of god and men , and yet so frequent , we resolve , besides the reproving of these sins in publike and private , to endeavor to bring such offenders to the punishment of the law , in thosed cases provided . 10. we will instruct our people publikely , concerning the nature of the discipline of christ , & shal press the necessity of their submission to it , according to the rule of scripture . 11 because it hath been the commendable practise of the saints of old , in order to the reformation of the churches , publikely and solemnly to renew the covenant with god ; and because in this age , temptations to apostacie , and back-slidings from the faith are strong and frequent , and because our hearts are so ready to start aside from the power of discipline , that we daily stand in need of all possible obligations to submission ; therefore we resolve to require from our people an assent to the truths of christ , ( contained in a short confession of faith hereunto annexed ) and a profession of their consent to submit unto , and accept of the terms of the covenant of grace , to take the lord for their god ; to walk in his wayes ; to fear , love , honor and obey him with all their heart , and with all their might , and to submit to discipline and government . yet 1. we are so far from resolving to satisfie our selves with the bare recital and repetition of the words of the profession , &c. that we shall endeavour to make the people not onely to profess with understanding , but ( so far as we can ) with feeling apprehensions of what they speak . 2. neither do we intend strictly to bind all to the same circumstances of professing their consent , but ( if any professing & owning the substance ) shall scruple at any particular circumstance , we resolve to use towards such , all possible meekness and condiscention . 12. besides a professed competent knowledge of the fundamentals of religion , we resolve to require an unblameable conversation in all those whom we shall admit to the sacrament of the lords supper , both these being necessary for the discovery of peoples present fitness and right , * in foro ecclesiae , to the actual enjoyment of that ordinance . 13. because the ordinances of god may , on the one hand , be prophaned , by the sinful neglect and carelessness of the church-guides ; and because on the other hand , people may be wronged by a rash and groundless exclusion ; therefore in the judging and determining of peoples present fitness for that sacrament , we resolve to set before us these following rules , both in point of knowledge and scandal . in point of knowledge . 1. because the truth of grace is utterly inconsistent with a total ignorance of the fundamentals of religion ; and because such persons , not being able to discern the lords body , would eat and drink judgement to themselves ; therefore we resolve , not to admit any that upon trial shall be found to be such , to the sacrament of the supper . 2. we shall not reject any as ignorant that have a competent knowledge of those heads of divinity , mentioned by the assembly in the form of church-government , pag. 28. all such persons who shall be admitted to the sacrament of the lords supper , ought to know , that there is a god ; that there is but one everliving and true god , maker of heaven and earth , and governor of all things ; that this onely true god , is the god whom we worship ; that this god is but one god , yet three distinct persons , the father , son and holy ghost , all equally god . that god created man after his own image , in knowledge , righteousness , and true holiness ; that by one man sin entred into the world , and death by sin , and so death passed upon all men , for that all have sinned ; that thereby they are all dead in trespasses and sins , and are by nature the children of wrath , and so lyable to eternal death , the wages of every sin . that there is but one mediator betwixt god and man , the man christ iesus , who is also over all , god blessed for ever ; neither is there salvation in any other . that he was conceived by the holy ghost , and born of the virgin mary ; that he died upon the cross to save his people from their sins ; that he rose again the third day from the dead , ascended into heaven , sitteth at the right hand of god , and maketh continual intercession for us ; of whose fulness we receive all grace necessary to salvation . that christ and his benefits are applied onely by faith ; that faith is the gift of god , and that we have it not of our selves , but it is wrought in us by the word , and the spirit of god . that faith is that grace whereby we believe and trust in christ for remission of sins and life everlasting according to the promises of the gospel ; that whosoever believes not in the son of god , shall not see life , but shall perish eternally . that they who truly repent of their sins , do see them , sorrow for them , and turn from them to the lord ; and that except men repent , they shall surely perish . that a godly life is conscionably ordered according to the word of god , in holiness and righteousnses , without which no man shall see god . that the sacraments are seals of the covenant of grace in the blood of christ ; that the sacraments of the new testament are baptism , and the supper of the lord ; that the outward elements in the lords supper are bread and wine , and do signifie the body and blood of christ crucified , which the worthy receiver by faith doth partake of in the sacrament , which christ hath likewise ordained for the remembrance of his death ; that whosoever eateth and drinketh unworthily , is guilty of the body and blood of the lord ; therefore that every one is to examine himself , left he eat and drink judgement to himself , not discerning the lords body . that the souls of the faithful after death doe immediately live with christ in blessedness ; and that the souls of the wicked do immediately go into hell torment ; that there shal be a resurrection of the bodies both of the just and unjust at the last day , at which time all shall appear before the judgement-seat of christ , to receive according to what they have done in the body , whether it be good or evil ; and that the righteous shall go into life eternal , and the wicked into everlasting punishment . 3. we must not expect from the ordinary sort of people , ( who through want of breeding , and other natural defects , are usually unable well to express their mindes ) a distinct or continued discourse of these things , and therefore we shall be satisfyed , if we can but perceive that they understand the substance . 4. we must take care not to make a question more difficult by our dark and cloudy expressions ; but must endeavor to propound things in the plainest terms we can . 5. though we may propound higher and more difficult questions , for discovery of , and provocation to growth in knowledge ; yet we wil always ( as neer as we can ) make their knowledge or ignorance in the points mentioned , the rule of our discerning and determination . 6. and in case any give not that satisfaction we desire , we will endeavour to discover whether it be , first , from their unacquaintedness with the terms & words of the question ; or secondly , from bashfulness or shamefacedness ; or thirdly , from natural impediments ; or fourthly , from ignorance of the thing it self ; and accordingly we wil propound the question in other words , or fetch a compass , to see if they can take a hint from something introductory ; however in case no satisfactory account can be given , we wil not set the parties aside , as if we took no further care , but shall endeavour to instruct them with all meekness and patience . 7. because we finde by experience , that many people speak of the fundamentals of religion in a meer form of words by roat , without understanding the sense and meaning thereof ; in propounding our questions we will of purpose forbear the words and method of ordinary catechisms . in point of scandal . 1. forasmuch as scandalous sinners cannot be admitted to the sacrament of the lords supper without great dishonor to god , defiling and abusing of that holy ordinance , sin and judgement to themselves , the indangering of the leavening the whole lump , & uncharitable unfaithfulness in those that knowingly admit them ; therefore we resolve not to receive any ( of what degree , quality or relation soever ) to this ordinance , that can be proved to be scandalously sinful . 2. in regard we can only take cognizance of peoples outward and ecclesiasticall right to ordinances ; therefore we resolve in matters of scandal , not to proceed against any according to our private satisfactions , suspitions , dis-satisfactions , or rumours ; but according to outward , visible , and full proof of the matter of fact . 3. because all sins are not alike heinous & scandalous , some being such in one single act ; others only in respect of continuance , & other aggravating circumstances ; thereforefore we resolve to distinguish betwixt sin and sin ; wherein that we may proceed both more unanimously and safely , we shall take the assemblies direction for our rule , looking upon those sins mentioned by them in the form of church government as scandalous , though but once committed . their words are these : all scandalous persons hereafter mentioned , are to be suspended from the sacrament of the lords supper : that is to say ; all persons that shall blasphemously speak or write any thing of god , his holy word or sacraments ; all renouncers of the true protestant religion professed in the church of england ; & all persons who shall by preaching or writing , maintain any such errors as do subvert any of those articles , the ignorance whereof doth render any person excluded from the sacrament of the lords supper ; an incestuous person , an adulterer , a fornicator , a drunkard , a prophane swearer or curser ; one that hath taken away the life of any person maliciously ; all worshippers of images , crosses , crucifixes , or reliques ; all that shall make images or pictures of the trinity , or of any person thereof ; all religious worshippers of saints , angels , or any meer creatures ; any person that shal profess himself not to be in charity with his neighbor ; all persons in whom malice appeareth , and they refuse to be reconciled ; any person that shall challenge any other person by word , message or writing to fight , or that shall accept such challenge , and agree thereto ; any person that shall knowingly carry any challenge by word , message or writing ; any person that shall upon the lords day use any dancing , playing at dice , or cards , or any other game , masking , wakes , shooting , bowling , playing , playing at foot-ball , stool-ball , wrestling ; or that shall make resort to any playes , interludes , fencing , bull-baiting , bear-baiting ; or that shall use hawking , hunting , or coursing , fishing or fowling ; or that shall publikely expose any wares to sale otherwise then is provided by an ordinance of parliament of the 6th . of april , 1649. any person that shall travel on the lords day without reasonable cause ; any person that keepeth a known stews , or brothelhouse , or that shall sollicite the chastity of any person for himself , or any other : any person , father or mother , that that shall consent to the marriage of their children to a papist , or any person that shall marry a papist ; any person that shall repaire for any advice to any witch , wizard , or fortune-teller ; any person that shall menace or assault his parents , or any magistrate , minister , or elder in the execution of his office ; any person that shall be legally attainted of barrotry ; forgery ; extortion or bribery . 4. much tenderness is to be used in judging of less sins that have more then ordinary advantage against men by sudden surprisal ▪ as passion ; &c. and in the out-breaking of sins that have formerly been customary , but are now striven against and weakned ; in such ordinary failings as are daily incident to the servant of god , in matter of debt , titles or particular interests ; & in all other things wherein the sinfulness is dubious and disputable . 5 we resolve in less sins to have regard to the constant tenure of the parties life and carriage ; as whether he be ordinarily otherwise strict or careless ; and to the circumstances of frequency , obstinacy , company , provocation , &c. which might either aggravate or lessen the offence . 6. in case the party offending upon reproof , shall manifest repentance by a serious profession of sorrow , ( not sleight and meerly verbal ) he ought to be received again . 7. and if the party professing repentance , shall readily return to the same sin once , and again ; or to any other scandalous sin , though he again profess repentance , yet we will defer his re-admission til we have trial of his reformation for some competent time . 8. because it often falls out , that mens actions are lyable to mis-constructions , and mis-apprehensions , especially amongst the weaker sort of christians , and when the party lieth under prejudice ; and lest brotherly inspection degenerate into an unbrotherly prying into , and discovering of other mens actions ; and generally for the avoiding of disorder , and other inconveniences , we resolve not to encourage any private christian , immediately to acquaint the church with the private failings of a brother , till he have first admonished him privately , and ( in case he hearken not ) before witnesses , and when the fruitlessness of these endeavours shall necessitate the publication of the fact , yet will we not countenance the bringing of the matter before the congregation , until the church-officers be first acquainted with it . 9. forasmuch as in the business of scandal it is unreasonable and uncharitable to take up against men old offences of any considerable distance from the time present ; and because in some cases it will be necessary to require some testimony of humiliation , even for sins of ancient date ; and in regard we cannot punctually determine how far back into the time past we may look for laying scandals to mens charge ; therefore we resolve to proceed warily in such cases , and not to do any thing without the advice of the association . 10. we shall do the like in those sins that render men obnoxious to the law , either in regard of life , liberty or estates , as also in any other case not foreseen , or provided for , in the foregoing rules . 11. vve agree , not to press a declaration of the time and manner of the work of grace upon the people , as a necessary proof of their actual present right to the lords supper , nor to exclude persons meerly for want of that , yet will we accept it , if any will be pleased to offer it freely . 15. vve agree , not to rest satisfyed with the bare exclusion of an obstinate scandalous sinner from the sacrament of the supper , but shall endeavour faithfully and sincerely ( as god shall enable us ) to prosecute the rule of christ , matt. 18. 17. against any such offender ; and if he refuse to hear the church , he shall be to us as an heathen , and a publicane , 16. because members living much distant from their pastors , and from one another , must unavoidably be ( in great part ) deprived of the priviledge , and come short of the duty , both of constant inspection , and mutual edefication ; and also for the preventing of disorders and offences , both in ministers and people , we agree , that we will not admit into any of our churches , those that live in other congregations ; execept , first , they haue no minister at all ; or secondly , one that is scandalous ; or thirdly , one that hath not competent abilities for the vvork of the ministry . yet 1. in case afterwards a godly able minister be established where there was none , or such as were scandalous and unfit ; then we will seriously advise those , whom in the cases aforesaid we have admitted , to joyn themselves to that minister . 2. we resolve to consult with the association concerning the justness or unjustnefs of exceptions in point of scansdal , or inabilitie of ministers , made by those that desire to be entertained in other congregations , because we conceive , that neither the people that desire to depart from such ministers , nor the ministers with whom they desire to joyne , are competent judges in such an interested case ; yet if the exceptions be such as are approved of by the association , we conceive it fittest for the reasons abovesaid , that they joyne themselves to the neerest congregation , where a godly and able minister is setled . 3. neither do we intend hereby to debar people from the occasional hearing of other ministers or from the occasional partaking of other ordinances in another congregation , so that this liberty be not used to the apparent prejudice of the ministry and discipline of their own congregation . 17. when a minister is to be ordained unto a congregation , we agree , that godly and able ministers of neighbor congregations , be called to be employed in the examination and trial of the fitness of the party to be set apart to that weighty office , and in the act of ordination . 18. though we differ about the first subject of the power of the keys , yet forasmuch as we all agree , that the affairs of the church are to be managed by the officers thereof , therefore we conclude that the examination and determination of things in cases of admission and rejections , and other church acts , shall be permitted by the officers ; yet so that the people have notice of what they resolve and conclude upon , in matters of moment , that in case any thing be done against which the people may ( upon probable grounds at least ) object from the word of god , it may either be forborne , or their satisfaction endeavoured . 19. and forasmuch as we cannot all proceed according to the ordinary rules in managing of the affairs of our particular congregations , through the want of fit persons to be made church-officers , and for other causes ; therefore we resolve by our mutual assistance to supply the want , because we may have ( according to scripture warrant ) recourse to an extraordinary expedient , the ordinary rule failing , and because this seems to us to come neerest the ordinary rule . yet 1. vve intend not that this should be perpetual , but only during the present want , and in order to the setling of our churches according to the rules of the gospel . 2. neither intend we hereby , to put into any ministers hand , a superior power over his brethren . 3. nor would we be understood , as making our many churches to be but one particular church , or giving the pastor of one church a true pastorall power and charge over other churches . 20. albeit we differ as to the power of associated churches over particular congregations ; yet , we agree that it is not only lawful and useful , but in many cases necessary , that several churches should hold communion and correspondency together ; and to that end we resolve to associate our selves , & to keep frequent meetings for mutual advice and help , as occasion shall require . 21. vve take our selves and our churches bound to follow whatsoever advice , direction or reproof , ( being agreeable to the word ) any of us shall receive from the brethren in association with us . 22. and in case it should so fall out , that our brethren in association should advise that which might seem less convenient in the judgement of the parties immediately and specially concerned , in the advice or reproof , or to the particular apprehensions of any other of us , ( it being of less moment , and not apparently contrary to scripture ) then we resolve to submit to it , rather then to endanger the peace of the churches , and to become examples and encouragers of disorder by our dissent and refusal . 23. particularly , forasmuch as the censure of excommunication is of great weight and concernment , wherein we are sure we can never be too ciruspect and careful ; therefore we resolve , first to advise with the association , before we proceed , by that sentence , to cast any out of our particular churches ; and whosoever shall thus be cast out of one church , wee wil repute him equally cast out of all , and avoid communion with him accordingly . 24. if it should so fall out , that any minister or particular church , should obstinately and wilfully , after many endeavours , and much waiting , reject the direction and counsel of the association , in things apparently agreeable to the word of god , then we resolve to draw the right hand of fellowship from such minister or church . 25. for the better carrying on of our intended association , we resolve to observe these following rules . 1. we judge it convenient to divide our selves into three associations , ( viz. ) at carlile , at penrith , and cockermouth , and shall meet once a moneth , or more or less , as occasion shall require , and the major part of the association shall think fit ; yet in this we do not intend to exclude any minister ( not being scandalous ) from any of the associations , that will be pleased to take the pains to be present there , nor yet the ministers of other counties that shall desire to joyne with any of them . 2. at these meetings we shall hear and determine things of common concernment , endeavour to resolve doubts , compose differences , consider the justness & weight of the grounds and reasons of ministers removals from any place , when such cases shall fall out , consult and advise about special emmergencies that may happen to our ministry or congregations in particular . 3. because ministers being men of like passions with others , can claime no exemptions from humane frailties and infirmities ; and in regard their miscarriages are more dishonorable to god and the gospel , more offensive and hurtful to private christians , therefore we resolve , impartially to hear complaints made against any minister in association with us ; and to this end we do all and every one of us ( in case any exception or complaint against any of us shall be made ) freely profess our resolution to submit to the admonition , reproof , censure or advice of our brethren ; yet we would not be here mistaken , as if we intended the encouragement of groundless and frivolous quarrels and exceptions , either in people against ministers , or in one minister against another ; for as we purpose ( the lord assisting us ) not to be too backward to reprove and rebuke when there shall be just cause , so shall we endeavour to be mindefull of that wariness which the scripture enjoyneth , in receiving an accusation against an elder . 4. though for conveniencie we divide our selves into three associations , yet we resolve sometimes to meet all together , especially when there shall fall out any thing of more extraordinary and publike nature or difficulty , which cannot be easily & satisfactorily decided in any of our particular associations . 5. if any that shall offer to ioyn with us in our association , lie under the common repute of scandal , then we will deferr his admission till he have cleared himself , or otherwise given satisfaction ; and for the prevention of offences , we resolve not to admit any into our associations without the consent of the whole or major part of them . 6. lastly , we will endeavour a closure of affection , as well as judgement and practise , and to that end we resolve , wholly to lay aside , and bury all names and terms of difference , to carry our selves each to other as brethren , forbearing ( as much as we can ) whatsoever might , either in word or action , occasion mis-reports and offences , or raise up grounds of iealousie and exception one against another . omnibus hisce consentimus , &c. the ministers of westmerland gave their consent in these words : we , whose names are here under-written , do subscribe to the forementioned propositions , except what concerns the county of cumberland in particular . the confession of faith . i believe that there is one only a living and true god , b who is a most pure spirit , c infinite in being and perfection d . and that in the unity of the godhead there are three dictinct persons , the father , the son , and the holy ghost ; and these three are one god , the same in substance , equal in power , and glory e . 2. i believe that god hath revealed his whole counsel , concerning his own glory , and mans salvation , in the scriptures of the old and new testament , which were given by divine inspiration f to be the perpetual and onely rule of our faith and obedience g . 3. i believe that in the beginning god created the heavens and the earth , h and all things in them of nothing , in the space of six dayes , and all very good ; and that he upholdeth i all things by the word of his power , and governeth k all things according to the counsel of his own will l . 4. i believe that god created man after his own image , in knowledge , righteousness , and true holiness ; m and that he gave him a law , n promising life upon perfect obedience , and threatning disobedience with death o . 5. i believe that man having broken this law , lost the image of god , and communion with him , p and brought himself & his whole posterity into an estate of sin and misery q . 6. i believe that man not being able to deliver himself from the curse , r god so loved the world , s that he promised , t and accordingly when the fulness of time was come , sent forth his son jesus christ u who took to him our nature , w and became man , x being conceived by the holy ghost in the wombe of the virgin mary , of her substance , and born of her , y yet without sin , z who having fulfilled all righteousness a was made a curse for us , b suffered death upon the cross , c was buried , and the third day he rose again , d ascended into heaven , e and sitteth at the right hand of god f making intercession for us g . 7. i believe that all the fruits of christs mediatorship shall be effectually communicated to all , h and onely i those who in him were elected unto salvation , before the foundation of the world , k which the holy ghost doth certainly apply by working faith in them , l thereby uniting them in their effectual calling to christ theirhead , m and into one church which is his body , n justifying , o adopting , p sanctifying q and bringing them into communion with him in all spirituall blessings r . 8. i believe christ hath appointed that those who profess his name , should for the begetting s and increase t of grace and knowledge , exercise an holy communion together , u under the administration of all his ordinances , w which they are carefully to observe till his second coming x . 9. i believe that christ shall come again at the end of the world ; y and that then the bodies of all those that shall bee found dead , shall bee raised , and the rest z changed , and all brought before him to judgement , which he shall pass upon them according to their works , † whereby the righteous shall be adjudged to eternal life in heaven , and the wicked to eternal death in hell * . i do heartily take the lord to be my god a and chief good , b and iesus christ to bee my onely saviour and redeemer , c and the holy ghost to bee my sanctifier , d giving my selfe up wholly to this one god , to love him with all my heart , with all my soule , and with all my might , e to obey him sincerely , and faithfully f in all his lawes contained in the holy scriptures , g though never so cross to my desires , or interest of credit , pleasure , and profit , h and all this to the death : i and in particular , i consent and resolve , in the strength of christ , to hold constant communion with the church of christ in the publike vvorship of god , k and to submit unto the discipline and government which christ hath ordained l for his own glory , and his peoples good , m and that i may have the opportunity of the injoyment of these priviledges , for the advancement of mine obedience , i resolve and promise to submit n to the ministeriall guidance and oversight exercised according to the rules of the vvord , in this congregation , and to the brotherly advice and admonition o of fellow-christians here . to all that proses the name of the lord jesus , in the counties of cumberland , and westmerland , both magistratates , and people . they that shall appear against the carnal interests and corruptions of men , in the confident expectation of a calm sea , and a generall acceptance , do forget that they deal with men whose distempers usually are awakened to the most vigorous angry opposition , by the sma●● of a searching ( though never 〈◊〉 and necessary ) medicine . or , that they deal with english men , ( pardon the expression ) whose former contentions and dis-satisfactions make their passions the more ready to take up armes , and become quarrelsome . or , that they deal with satan , who will the more best it himselfe to kindle and blow the fire , because hee knowes such undertakings are principally against his interest are kingdome : yet they who shall be affrighted from their duty by the report of giants and walled cities , ( difficulties that attend it , ) shew so much unfaithfulness in regard of their duty ; so much blockish regardlessness of gods honour , and the churches good ; [ which are of far more value then all our lives , if it should cost us so much , ] so much sordid basenese of spirit , as not daring to disquiet those humours , which if reuzed , might hazard them in their esteem , peace or maintenance ; so much atheisme and unbelief , as if the great jehovah were not able to bear them out , and to give unexpected success to contemptible beginnings ; or at least , to reward them plentifully for their toyle and care : that they declare before all the world , their unworthiness of that high trust , and those honourable titles of overseer , guide , ambassador , steward , stars and angells , which are then most glorious to a spiritual eye , when most scorned and vilified by the world . upon these and such like considerations , we have put our selves upon these resolutions , which herewith are presented unto you . we , who have engaged our selves in this undertaking , have ( we hope ) throughly considered , what in all probability it may cost us , that while we look for reproach & contradiction , which yet we would not willingly finde , our opposers may find that undaunted courage in our prosecution of this work , which they would not readily have looked for . the great distance of this from the first undertaking , and report of our agreement , doth necessarily draw forth this brief account of its birth and progress . about three yeers ago some of us joyned together in an expedient much of this nature , which we propounded to some of our brethren of different perswasions in these things , but it took not ; whereupon we resolved to prosecute it among our selves , and made some progress in it : at which time vvorcestershire association ; with mr. baxters explication , came forth : upon this we began to conceive more probability of some reconciliation ( at least ) of different judgements , in matters of church-government , then formerly , because we hoped , the prejudice which possibly might arise from our single attempt , ( in a business of that nature ) would be much removed , when they saw we were not alone , and that the way was led by others of so much worth and ability ; we therefore resolved to take up our former design again , and to propound it to the whole ministry of the county in general . to that end several meetings were desired ; and at last we agreed in these following propositions , which were cheerfully subscribed by several , both of the presbyterian , and congregational judgement . during the agitation of these things , some of us were much affected to observe : 1. the assent of men both able and judicious , and such as had throughly studyed the congregational way , and from whom ( in proprobability ) opposition might have been expected , in case these things had been inconsistent with these principles . 2. that prejudice ( which like a hateful monster , impoysons the best things , seeks fuel from its own ignorance and blindness , and from the very distance which it self caused ; like a fiery oven devours all that 's cast into it , and musters up all the passions to fight against it knows not what ) hath the greatest hand in hindering the unity and and concord of brethren . 3. that the best way to cure it , is friendly and brotherly debates , especially after it hath tyred it self with its own activity , and evaporated something of its fury . 4. that the churches peace ( if by all parties seriously laid to heart ) is a very forceable medium to infer a conclusion of unity . yet all was not done when we had proceeded thus far ; action ( the life of all ) was yet behinde ; satan is enraged , ( and surely that must needs be good which he so furiously opposeth ) and endeavours to stiffle it in the birth ; to effect which , he disgorgeth from his hateful stomack , a swarm of quakers ; these , at that very time , when all things were ready for practice , come upon us like a furious torrent ; all is on fire on the sudden , many are unsetled , the foundations shaken , and some apostatize ; here we are beaten off , and are forced to lay other things aside , that we might more fully binde our selves to quench these flames . after a while this storm abates , and we begin to think of our former work . but the last parliament was then sitting , and because something of that nature was expected from them , it was advised we should yet a little forbear , till we might see the issue . the parliament being ended , we encountered with an other demurrer which was this : the providence of god so ordered things , that many ministers in this county were unfixed , supposing they should be necessitated to remove ; and several did remove to other counties , so that we were again forced to let all alone , expecting what way things would be cast . and now all these things being over , we have once more re-assumed our ancient resolutions , casting our selves upon the lord , and looking up to him for assistance , that things concerning his honor and house , with so much difficulty now brought to the birth , may not miscarry . when these were now ready , it pleased the lord to give us this encouragement ; our brethren , the ministers of our neighbor-county of vvestmerland , desired of us a copy of our propositions and confession ; and after they had among themselves considered and debated them , they signified to us their free consent to all , except what concerned the county of cumberland in particular . these things we speak from the press ; 1. because we suppose it necessary that you have copies of these propositions , and this is the readyest way to procure them . 2. for prevention of mistakes and mis apprehensions , which might arise either from corrupt copies , or from report of our bare actions , while men only hear what we do , but are not acquainted with our grounds and principles . 3. that this may stand upon record as a testimony of our desires of , and endeavours for the healing of sion . we know not what success the lord may be pleased to give to this : when we look upon our selves , we profess our selves unworthy of that honour , of being imployed in any part of gods work , and unable of ourselves to do any thing in it ; and it may be the lords time of building ierusalem , is not yet come , or who knows but he may exclude you from such a priviledge , while he grants it to others ? yet when we look upon his power , his word , and his work upon some of you , we are not without hope : how ever it please the wise god to dispose of this , we are sure it is our duty to do our utmost in the prosecution of concord : and though our souls shall mourn in secret , if our dis-union and distractions continue ; yet it will be no grief of heart to us ( especially in our dying hour ) to consider that we did what we could to prevent them . it will not be requisite to speak much in explanation , or vindication of what we propose ; because in most things it is fully done to our hands , by judicious and learned mr. baxter , in his explication of the vvorceste-shire association , unto which we refer you for satisfaction , whiles we give a brief touch upon something in the general . 1. know that several things , as to method , phrase , and omissions , ( which those that are versed in the controversies about government , will readily observe ) were not done altogether upon neglect , or inadververtency , but on design . 2. that these were not calculated for every meridian ; we were forced to have an eye to the general temper of our people , as well as the differing judgements of one another : and therefore let it not be blamed , if it be found not suitable in all things to other places . 3. let it be carryed in your minde all along , that through the contexture of the whole work , our debates were , what we ought to do for the churches peace , and not what each of us might do , according to the latitude and utmost extent of the usual practice of different judgements . 4. in all this agreement there are no principles broken on either side ; and nothing condescended unto by any , which hath not the subscription and assent of eminent men on both parties in their writings . the chief corner-stones of this fabrick , are four , which present themselves in the entrance , whereof the first and last propositions neither fear opposition , nor require explication ; if any should question them , such evidence and general acception doth accompany them , that they will finde advocates in every place . the second ( we hope ) will not be accused ( by any that shall seriously consider all ) for entrenching too much upon the interest of truth . we acknowledge every truth to be precious in it self , and profess our selves unfeigned lovers of it ; neither are we ignorant how much those overtures of union , ( such as charls his interim , and cassanders designe ) wherein the difference is compremised with the loss of truth , are generally and justly distasted : neither can we blame those primitive fathers for sticking so peremptory to {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , refusing concord , rather then admitting one iota more to that word , where such a little litteral addition would make so great an alteration in sense and faith ; neither do we forget how apt the best men are ( with bucer haurire faeces ) to suck in the dreggs out of an eager thirst after peace . but no such thing can be fastned on what we assert ; we are not engaged to deny or renounce the least truth , much less any fundamental : all that the proposition speaks of , is onely a silencing and forbearing some truths . and this condiscention is , 1. terminated only on government . 2. on the confessed lower , and most questionable points thereof . and 3. this only so long , and so far as the churches peace requires it . if any think that union and peace should be hazarded , nay lost , rather then so great an injury done to truth ; let them consider , whether they be so great friends to truth as they pretend ; if the church be broken through dissention , we suppose truth will bleed and groan under its ruines . if the pillar shake or fall , truth that hangs on it , will be involved in the same fate . what if peace borrow something of truth ? will it not by that loane be enabled to repay all with advantage ? truth indeed is the way to peace , ( {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} greg. naz. orat. 12. de pace : ) yet when truth is questioned , then peace is the way to truth ; and the main thing to be looked at for the securing of its interest , is union ; {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . greg. naz. ibid. in so narrow a point doth truth lye , that men are not likely to have any full or certain view of it , till their spirits be calmed , and their eyes be freed from that dust which their contentious bickerings have raised . but have not the guides of the church in all ages been forced to make use of this plaster to heal the churches wounds ? did not the apostles betake themselves to this expedient , acts 15. 20. to allay the difference betwixt the christian iews and gentiles ? and were not circumcision and mosaicall ceremonies of greater moment then our differences ? and were not those truths , about our freedom from that yoke , silenced for that time , and the contrary practised even by themselves ? act. 16. 3. & 21. 24. 26. this is so clear an instance , that it is frequently urged in this case ; and indeed , so strong for us , that we doubt of being acquitted by it in the judgement of understanding men . consider , 1. that the laws concerning mosaical observations were abrogated at the death of christ , and therefore in regard of their present state ( or else as some call it ) neither lawful nor indifferent . 2. the apostle of the gentiles had laid them aside as useless , nay had spoken against them ; and hence arose the contest about them . 3. when the matter was referred to the synod of ierusalem , ( though before he had preached publikely against them ; yet ) he is so far from asserting , that every truth must be published what ever become of peace , that he forbears to speak publikely , and applies himself particularly ( {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) to those that were pillars , and of reputation , viz. peter , iames , iohn , &c. for dr. lightfoot , harm. n. t. p. 97. makes it the same journey with that mentioned gal. 3. 2. 4. the synod doth determine not only the silencing of this truth , viz. the abolition of ceremonies , and christians freedom from them ; but also permits the exercise of these to the jewes , and injoynes the practice of some of them to the gentiles . 5. the ground of the determination was the churches peace , acts 15. 21. 6. and in this regard they enjoyn them as necessary things , which they should do well to observe , acts 15. 28 , 29. till the church might have a competent time and means of satisfaction . the sum is this : the silencing of some truths for peace sake ( both in regard of publication and practice ) was by them judged necessary . since the apostles dayes , those who have most earnestly contended for the foundations , and things neer the foundation , have alwayes advised to condescention for peace sake . to recite all instances that might be given , would be tedious : we shall content our selves with two or three in stead of many . basil . ad presb. tarsenses epist. 203. adviseth to concord as necessary for the establishment of the church , and propounds condescention as a necessary means of it ; there is need ( saith he ) of a great deal of care and diligence for the helping of the churches , which cannot be but by uniting those that differ ; which union will be effected ( {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) if we condescend to the weak in things not prejudicial to the soul . luther gives the same advice in an epist. to the divines assembled in a synod at norimberge [ meum consilium fuerit ( cum nullum sit ecclesiae periculum , ut hanc causam sinatis , vel ad tempus sopitam ( utinam extinctam ) jacere donec tutiore & meliore tempore animis in pace firmatis & charitate ad unatis , eam disputetis ] my advice is that ( seeing no hurt can accrue to the church by it ) this difference might sleep , at least for a time , ( or rather indeed dye out ) till your mindes were confirmed in peace , and united in love , then might you more safely enquire into it . greg. nazi . is as peremptory as any against purchasing peace with the loss of truth ; witness his expressions [ {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . orat. 12. ] contention for piety is better then a vicious peace . and again , let none conjecture that i think all peace ought to be loved and embraced ( {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) for i know that as some kinde of disagrement is good , so some agreement is pernicious . ibid. and more fully , orat. 32. p. 518. let us not prosecute peace to the prejudice of truth . ( {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) nay , in such cases he tells us , we should contend as much , as if it were against fire and sword , and that hee that in other things is most milde and gentle , should here be most violent and pugnacious [ {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ] orat. 12. p. 198. 203. and yet he is as zealous for making way for peace , by silencing lesser truths , as any : how earnestly doth he urge a necessity of distinguishing of truths ? some are ( saith he ) sutable to our capacities , some above them ; some ( {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) concern the time present , others the world to come , &c. and then applies all thus : some things are not at all to be enquired after , others with moderation . some truths are to be contended for earnestly ; in others ( {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) condescention and forbearance to be used , &c. orat. 14. p. 220. and afterwards he exhorts those that worship the same trinity , to cut off and avoid superfluous questions , as the common disease of that time , and as so many ( {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) suckers , which rob the tree of its sap and fruit , or crooked windings , which lead the traveller into a maze and confusion ; and in the close of that excellent oration adds , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . let us yeeld a little in smaller truths , that we may receive that which is greater , viz. concord : let us yeeld that we may overcome . and much to the same purpose also he hath , orat. 12. p. 203. but we forbear . to this purpose we might urge the example of constantine the great , who in matters of greater consequence , ( viz. the difference betwixt arius and the orthodox ) propounds the forbearance of asking or answering questions concerning that difference as a necessary means to peace ; which he did as supposing it to be of lower concernment , vide soc. eccles. l. 1. c. 4. to the third we need say little ; onely to explain our meaning , know , that there are several things which both parties practise upon different grounds : as in matters of appeal , where one party gives power authoritative ; the other fraternal onely ; yet both own the thing : so in the exercise of the power of the keyes , where though the {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , ( i. e. ) the first subject be questioned , yet all agree , that ( in churches organical at least ) the officers are to manage them . to these may be added ordination by pastors of other churches , and the church-covenant , &c. now all we say here is this , that the difference of principles by which both parties are carried to the same thing , doth not make our conjunction unlawful . the 11th . proposition we hope will not be quarrelled with by sober minded men . 1. none will say that 't is unlawful to renew covenant with god . 2. nor will any deny the expediency and usefulness of it in reformation of churches . 3. nor that our particular churches ( so overgrown with ignorance and prophaneness , so beset with heresies , so weakned ( as to discipline and government ) through licencious liberty ) have no need of it . 4. in this we cross not any presbyterian principle . those that have most opposed an explicite church-covenant as the form of a church , do not deny the lawfulness and usefulness of the thing , but only the necessity of it , in reference to such an end ; and the extent of it , as to some particular articles ; vid. ruther . due right , p. 85. an explicite vocal covenant , saith he , we deny not , as if the thing were unlawful , &c. p. 86. nor deny we , that at the election of a pastor , the pastor and people tye themselves by reciprocation of oaths , &c. p. 88. nor do we question whether such a covenant may be lawfully sworn ; we think it may , &c. so also apollonius , p. 4. 5. the grounds and ends mentioned , and only imposed in the proposition , and the draught of the profession it self , will ( as we hope ) sufficiently clear us from the two fore-hinted exceptions . 6. the mentioning only of those grounds wherein all are agreed , doth not exclude a reipsa , any other further end of covenanting , ( if it have any such , ) nor bereave it of any of its proper effects : for so long as the thing is done , it will reach all its ends of institution , whether we particularly discover them or no . divine institutions , in respect of the effects immediately resulting ab earum positione & usu , are not enlarged , or narrowed , according to the largeness or straightness of our apprehensions , no more then our not apprehending the sun to be appointed to concurre to the production and growth of vegetables , will hinder its effects that way . so that the congregational brethren , being condescended unto in the practice of the thing , need not press the disputable ends and grounds of it : and the prebyterian brethren need not refuse the thing , they being not urged to do it upon those questionable grounds . the twelfth proposition shews our rule of admission , and the rules which we have propounded to our selves for our safer proceeding : we know that two parties will take exceptions against what we propound : some thinking us too strict ; others too open-handed . those that think this rigid and harsh dealing , let them be pleased to consider ; 1. that 't is none but the ignorant and scandalous , which we shall desire to debar from that ordinance . 2. that by putting bounds to our selves , we take away the aspersion of an indefinite , unlimited , arbitrary and uncertain government . 3. that in debarring such , the church-guides go not beyond their commission , but only execute that office , and discharge that trust that god hath laid upon them : are those not rulers and governors ? and doth not this engage and authorize them , to prevent and hinder the polluting and prophanation of his ordinances ? have those that are charged with holy things , a charge to give onely and not to debar ? the officers of the old-testament , were to exclude the unclean actually ; the porters of the temple were not to suffer the unclean to enter the temple , 2 chr. 23. 19. & in eze. 44. 7 , 8. shall we think that when god prohibits the unfit , he leaves the execution of this prohibition solely to every mans particular perswasion concerning himself , and leaves only a doctrinal declarative power to the officers ; and that though they may declare a person unfit , yet they may not refuse to give the ordinance to him whom they declare unworthy ; is the juridical , decisive power in every person for himself ? doth not this as much disable them from debarring and men , or men actually drunk ? if such intrude , can he do no more then declare them unfit ? or if he may debarr these juridically , because they are not in a capacity of improving the ordinance , * though from other causes , as ignorance , &c. and indeed , that the officers may juridically debar from the lords supper , cannot be denyed , by those that will acknowledge that the offended brother must tell the church ; the church then hath power to examine ; else , to what purpose is it to make known the grievance to it ? and doth not examination infer more then a declarative power ? neither can it be denyed by those that will grant excommunication ; if they can juridically cast out of the church , then it must be granted , they can juridically exclude from the supper , for this reason at least , because the former includes the latter . 4. the exclusion of ignorant and scandalous persons , is not a novel invention , or new device , but that which carries the stamp of antiquity upon it . the very light of nature seems to have hinted such a thing to the heathens ; as their proculite propahni at sacrificings testifieth . but if we look within the church , we have abundant evidence . dionysius areop. . an ancient writer ( though perkins and illyricus give sufficient reasons to evince that it was not he that was paul's schollar ) in eccles. hierar . cap. 3. p. 93. tells us , that the catechumeni , & energumeni , and others under penance ( {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) were admitted to hearing of scripture , &c. yet they were excluded these mysteries , and the perfect onely admitted . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . and afterwards p. 96. & 97. extends this exclusion , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , to the less perfect and unholy , and gives this reason for it , because it admits not {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , that which is not altogether holy , or that which in some respect comes not up to the image of god . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , &c. iustin martyr , apol. 2. is more express , and requites , 1. professed knowledge : it is not to be given ( saith he ) to any but {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} to him that believes the doctrine of the gospel to be true , which includes professed knowledge . and secondly , holy life , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . if we should search the decrees of counsels , we might shew you much to the same purpose ; but testimonies of this nature are collected by gillaspie , rutherford , and others , and therefore we forbear . neither are our proceedings herein different from what was prescribed and enjoyned by the episcopal divines ; knowledge was alwayes presupposed as a necessary qualification for the lords supper , and therefore catechising was to be used . and as for scandal , the canons of the church of england took care that it should exclude , can. 26. enjoynes , that no minister shall in any wise admit to the receiving of the holy communion , any of his cure or flock , which be known to live in any notorious sin without repentance , or who have maliciously and openly contended with their neighbours , untill they shall be reconciled . the same thing also was expressed in the rubrick of the common-prayer ; where the minister was not only to disswade persons in malice to come to the lords table , but not to suffer them : and not only such , but also whosoever shall be found to be an open and notorious evil-liver , * or such as wronged their neighbor in word or deed . there is then no difference 'twixt them and us in the rule , but only in the practice , in that they come not up to their own rule . so that if you will be finding fault , you must blame them for their neglect , not us for our strictness . we might also shew ( against the charge of novelty ) the papists asserting the same thing ; though of all men it might least be expected from them , seeing they affirm the lords supper to confer grace . aquinas part 3. q. 80 , in art. 6. * concludes thus ; divina majestas & evangelica disciplina exigit , ut manifestis ac publicis peccatoribus , ctiam petentibus sacra denegetu communio . and for this cites cyprian lib. 1. epi. 10. advising not to give the supper to stage-players , &c. as being contrary to the discipline and honor of the church . nay , those that plead most for a free admission , are so far from taxing this practice with novelty , that they yeild it to be a piece of the ancient and usual discipline of the church , to exclude the notorious and open scandalous , though not excommunicate ; neither do they so much plead for the admission of the scandalous , as for the excommunicating of them first , before a debarment from the sacrament . 5. if there were no such power , yet so long as 't is granted , that officers have charity , & may , & must use it to prevent our brothers danger , so long surely may we do all this ; if we had nothing else to bear us out , would not this engage us to help you to examine your selves ? ( & is the matter of so small moment , that you need no help ? ) nay , and to refuse to give you that which we see would hurt you ? will real love satisfie it self with a bare warning , without endeavouring to prevent ? will it only tell him 't is poyson he drinks , & not also take it out of his hand ? & have you any cause to be angry when we tel you the truth concerning your estates , or hinder you from destroying your selves out of love to you ? that when we love our peace or maintenance less then your good , you should so op-pose . when the physician puts the patient to some grief , in the application of a necessary medicine , is it reasonable either to refuse his medicine , or to abuse his person ? that the medicine is so sharp , is your fault , not ours . the lord knows we delight not in excluding , if we could admit you without your own hurt ; & if god laid not this duty upon us , can you imagine that men that know what they do , would unnecessarily provoke your hatred and opposition , when they might have love and good will ? but when we consider the weight of the blood of souls , and how bitterly many a poor creature shall in hell curse his man-pleasing minister , we are afraid . those that think us too large , let them be pleased to consider . 1. that god would not have the door so strait as many suppose ; we know that purity is amiable , and required of all in the church , and that it hath such a lovely aspect , that many so fix their eyes upon it , as if that were only to be attended and prosecuted in the constitution and reformation of churches ; yet with some confidence we dare affirm , 1. that the strictest way of admission is not therefore best , because strictest . 2. that 't is much safer , in the management of admissions , and more acceptable to god , to be so facile , as to hazard the admission of many unfit , rather then to exclude one that ought not to be excluded : mr. cotton saith , rather ninety nine should perish through presumption , then one humble soul belonging to christ , should sink under discouragement : way . p. 58. 3. that the admission of some less fit , can neither defile the ordinances to others , nor hinder their spiritual communion : non polluitur communio , licet minuitur solatio . 4. that censoriousness , revilings and contempt of weaker christians , errors , aversness to concede and yeild to brethren of different judgement in less things , for peace sake , ( though they make not so great a noise in the world ) are sins of a more dangerous consequence , more pernicious to the church , in themselves more infectious , and against which there lies more just exceptions , as to admission , then many other failings which usually are excepted against in the weaker sort . 5. that those churches have most of gospel-order , where unity and encouragement of the weak is equally regarded and prosecuted with purity , going hand in hand , but one not justling out another . 6. that if the best of men would but impartially weigh their private failings in the same scale in which they usually weigh other mens , with the application of matt. 7. 1 , 12. and would put on charity , 1 cor. 13. 4 , 5 , 6. with humility , they would not be so severe against others . 2. we cannot see any ground or scripture-warrant , for a stricter rule then this we walk by : 1. the fitness which comes under our cognizance , is only outward ; whether they that are only outwardly qualified , have a real interest in the seals of the covenant , before god , or not ; we think it unseasonable now to dispute ; that which we assert , is granted by all of both parties , ( that understand their principles ) that the seals are given to such ; and that in our enquiries and determinations , we are to go no higher , least we be guilty of prying into things secret , and of usurping the throne and scepter of the almighty . 2. the rule which must direct us to judge aright of this fitness , must of necessity have these properties ; first , it must be general ; or else , how shall it reach all men ? if it should be so short , or so narrow as to exclude any admissable , it could not be acknowledged to be true . secondly , it must be publike ; the officers are publike , and so is the act of admission , and so are the ordinances admitted to : and therefore it cannot be granted , that officers must manage these things by private instructions , and let in by a private door . thirdly , it must be a standing rule ; for if it be uncertain , unconstant , and bending , how shall it direct us to make any steady or certain tryal ? 3. the satisfaction wherein we are to acquiess , ought to be publike and ecclesiastical ; for if we were to admit only according to our private satisfactions or dis-satisfactions , who almost then could be admitted with some ? who sees not the uncertainty of such a rule ? if this were true , the same parties , under the same qualifications , without any alteration , might be lawfully admitted , and rejected by several churches , nay , by the same church at several times , some being more easily satisfyed then others . not that the use of charity in this case is denyed , when we have made as impartial a trial as we can ; the standing rules of charity must be made use of : but yet god hath not so referred the matter to charity , as if none were to be admitted , where our charity would not bring us up to a perswasion , or belief of regeneration ; we suppose this therefore to be a standing truth , that we may lawfully , and with peace of conscience , nay we ought to admit one , ( if coming up to the rule ) of whose integrity we may have particular dis-satisfactions . if this were well considered , the difference about rigid admissions would not be so great . mr. noton , cont. apoll. pag. 11. is full in this point , distinguishing 'twixt fideles {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} and {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , or ecclesiastice fideles , believers that are really such , and those that are reputed to be such : and plainly asserts , that we ought to carry our selves toward those , as if they were really godly ; and that we are not bound positively to believe every one admissable into the church to be regenerate : nay , that the church may sin in not admitting one ecclesiastically fit , although not really a believer ; and that the judgement of charity , is not a perswasion of the integrity of a man ; but , in doubtful facts where the evil is not evident , an inclining to judge the best , negative & practice , as he speaks . or if any shall not be satisfied with this , let them be pleased to consider , whether mr. burrows ( gospel vvorship p. 238 ) doth not speak more largely then we in the instance of iudas ; where he affirms our resting in ecclesiastical satisfaction so necessary , that though we had a private revelation from heaven , that such a one were an hypocrite , yet we are to communicate with him still , till he so far discover himself , that his evill can be proved publikely by witnesses . if any rule shall come short of these , we doubt not to call it defective ; and if any shall go further , we as little doubt to call it a strictness above what is written . that our rule is adaequate to outward fitness , hath the three forementioned qualifications , and affords sufficient ground of ecclesiasticall satisfaction , seems very clear to us , neither is it charged by any with defect , saving that it speaks not of the declaration of the work of grace , ( which is further required by some ) which how far it suits with what we have now hinted , we leave to the judicious to consider : and shall only add a word or two concerning the fifteenth proposition , which expresly relates to this . wherein take notice : 1. that it is not denyed , but that men converted may lawfully and profitably declare what the lord hath done for them . 2. that therefore we shall accept it where offered . 3. but the pressing of this as a {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} upon all , is that wherein we are not satisfied . 1. because some of us see neither scripture-precept , nor president for it : if the apostles had either pressed this themselves in their admissions , or prescribed it to us , good reason had it been we should have done 10. the most probable place for countenance of this practise , is 1 pet. 3. 15 , 16. which yet speaks nothing to a declaration of the work of grace ; but only that in those persecuting times , they should have so much knowledge of the principles of religion , as might enable them to justifie their profession , by giving a reason of the doctrine thereof , which he calls hope , as paul frequently doth , act. 23. 6. & 26. 7. & 28. 20. and that this is the meaning , appears from the context , v. 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 which shews he speaks of giving this reason of their hope to persecutors dissatisfyed with their doctrine , ( not with their integrity and truth of conversion ) and therefore not a declaration of the work of grace to church-officers for admission . to this some add mat. 3. 6. which indeed speaks of confession of sins , but nothing of a declaration of the work of grace ; they might acknowledge the sinfulness of their former estate , or acknowledge particular offences , and yet be far from that , for which some produce this text : or if this text would prove such a thing , it would only prove it voluntary on their part , but not enjoined by iohn ; nay , what ever it was , it will be very hard to prove that it was publike , or to iohn at all ; and as hard to prove it to have been before their admission by baptism , and not after , vid. dr. lightfoot , harm. evan. in loco . 2. though it should be granted ( which yet all wil not ) that the invisible church is the prime , and proper only subject to whom the seales belong ; and that saving qualifications are requisite to give a real interest in them ; and that we are to admit onely upon such evidences , as may give proof of interest ; yet there are other more satisfactory evidences , viz. from the tenour of a christians life , then this ; which would sufficiently demonstrate , ( so far as we either can , or are concerned to know ) though this were laid aside . if we had no mark but this , or none so demonstrative as this , or none sufficiently demonstrative without this , or none less questionable , or less open to inconveniences , we conceive much might have been said . 3. this is so inconsiderable an evidence , that it seems scarce any at all ( beside so much of it as is included in the former ) to some of us ; if there be any thing in it , it must be from the parties own word , that is , his own affirmation that he is converted ; which we suppose to be no proof in this particular . if you say there is more , it must be either from the thing spoken in the matter , or in the manner , viz. the affectionateness of utterance . for the former , we suppose none will say , that he only that hath the real experiences of grace and conversion , can declare such things , at least , as are ordinarily spoken and accepted in such cases . as for the latter , we suppose it will scarcefinde a patron for its evidenceship : and if his expression and affectionateness should , yet still it rests upon his own his word , whether it be so with him as he speaks . we intreat those that think this so full a proof , to consider how frequent it is , since this came into fashion , for vile men ( some of us could give instances , if it were convenient ) to speak so affectionately of their conversion , and tell you how they were cast down , and comforted , &c. that as to expression , they would match the holyest saint in the world . 4. 't is not adaequate to saint-ship , ( at least as 't is pressed and urged by some ) and therefore unfit to try by , as not reaching all admissable , according to the rule of christ . who knows not how secret a thing the work of grace is upon a soul , and how hardly discernable ? the gradual , and still proceedings , the long intervals of the spirits acts , the different method , the darkness and fears upon peoples hearts ; all these make it hard to be discovered . 5. we have seen some printed books of confessions , &c. which have as much satisfied us against it as any thing . we are afraid of putting our people upon these temptations and inconveniences , which in that course others have fallen upon . 6. there is a holy modesty and bashfulness , which either doth , or ought to attend those passages and transactions ( we mean the work it self , and not the shameful miscarriages of our lives ) 'twixt god and out souls , which may justly excuse them from publike view . 7. those of our brethren of the congregational way , do not press this as necessary to membership . mr. norton is full , cont. apoll. p. 3. non necessario quaerendum , &c. it is not necessary ( in admission into the church ) to require men to give a particular account of the signes of true grace , or the work of faith , and true repentance : mr. cotton , hol. ch. memb. pag. 19. admits those , 1. that profess ( publikely ) faith and repentance . 2. subjection to ordinances . 3. inoffensive conversation . and excludes , 1. the ignorant . 2. those that deny the faith . 3. the scandalous . mr. hooker insists only on these two , part 1. p. 15. persons , though they be hypocrites inwardly , yet if their conversations and expressions be such , so blameless and inoffensive , that according to reason , directed by the vvord , we cannot conclude , but in charity there may be , and is some special good in them ; these are fit matter of a visible church , &c. and , part 1. p. 24. ; he that professing the faith , lives not in the neglect of any known duty , or in the commission of any known evill ; and hath such a measure of knowledge , as may in reason let in christ into the soul , and carry the soul to him ; these be grounds of probabilities , by which charity , poized according to rule , may , and ought to conceive there be some beginnings of spiritual good . and more fully , part 3. p. 5. speaking of admissions , and of private members repairing to them , to enquire the time and manner of their conversion , he saith , i am afraid it is a presumed kinde of liberty , which wants precept and example , for any thing that ever appeared to me in scripture . and that not onely because it entrencheth upon the office of the elder ( as he saith ) but because the thing it self is inconvenient . hear his own words : all such pains misseth the end and fruit of it ; for the stress of the tryal lyes not there , nor can the last resolution of judicious and reasonable charity issue there : whether the person be a visible saint or no ? for there be many truly and savingly called , who never knew the time and manner of their conversion , and therefore cannot relate it to others , and yet express the power of grace in their lives , &c. and afterward , to that question ; what is the rule according to which satisfaction is to be regulated ? he answers thus : in a word , if a person live not in the commission of any known sin , or in the neglect of any known duty , and can give a reason of his hope towards god ( he means a professing of faith , as before he expressed himself ) this casts the cause with judicious charity , to hope and believe there is something of god and grace in the soul ; and therefore fit for church-society . so that the question is , whether such a mark which is questionable in its warrant , accompanyed with inconveniences , more open to counterfeiting , flexible , not general , and not insisted on as necessary by our brethren , ought to be rigidly pressed , to the hinderance of the churches peace ; when other sufficient , more certain , evidential , and generally agreed on evidences may be had : and seeing it is put to this issue , we hope our congregational-brethren will not take offence at any condescention herein . what we lay down , propos. 16. wherein we confine our selves to our own parish-bounds for membership , we hope wil not provoke the distaste of any brother . some of us cannot behold the different practice of our brethren in this point , without amazement : alas ! that men should no more lay to heart the divisions of the church , the disorders , and other inconveniences which arise from this liberty , that men are so ready to take to themselves ! how great a hand this hath in keeping of a closure of brethren , we need not tell ; look about , and see it . ingenuous and moderate mr. firmin , ( a new-england man ) calls this a dividing principle , in his epistle to his serious question , and the practisers of it , seekers of division ; and for the regulating of it , propounds the same that we do , in the forementioned proposition ; and supposeth , that if congregational men would but yeild in this one thing , it would much tend to the healing of our breaches . we earnestly beseech the contrary-minded , to consider seriously : 1. that the presbyterians never pleaded for local limits , or parish-bounds in this sense , as if church-membership did arise from thence : they are as ready as any to say , that co-habitation makes not men members of a church ; though ( it cannot but be observed ) that they are ( by several ) spoken against , as if this had been their assertion . surely ingenious men will not threap that upon them , which they with one voice do so much disown . 2. all that they say , ( in this case ) is this , that it is necessary that church-members do co-habit ; and that for order sake , it is fit that bounds be set and observed . and doth not scripture and reason say the same ? 1. in the new-testament , did not the people of god , living in a town or city , alwayes joyne together among themselves in a church-way ? for why else are churches denominated from places ? as the church of rome , corinth , &c. when will it be proved , or what scripture speaks it , that any lived in a neighborhood or town , where there was a church , and yet was a member of a church in an other town ? 2. is not this ( as 't is usually practised ) inconsistent with the ends of church-membership ? church-members may so live together , 1. that their pastor and officers may reside among them for inspection and rule . 2. that they may meet commodiously and frequently together for the enjoyment of ordinances . 3. that they may maintain communion for help and advice among themselves , &c. and all this with ease and conveniency . now how this can be done as it ought , where the members live so much distant , ( as is usual in many gathered churches ) let the moderate judge ? 3. how will contention , confusion and disorder be avoided , if this be kept up ? is it nothing for one minister ( by the invitation of such a proclaimed liberty ) to deprive another of the comfort of his prayers , tears and labours ? or for one church to bereave another of its help and comfort , in bereaving it of its choicest members ? or is it nothing to set such an example before the eyes of the weaker sort ? may not the pulling out of one pin endanger the ruine of the whole fabrick ? make the case your own , and then judge . would you be willing to be so dealt withall ? would you not think your selves wronged , if others should go about to withdraw from you the members of your churches ? it is wondered by some , how men can so confidently appropriate the title of gospel-order to their way , ( but that glorious pretences , and high words are more hopefull to prevail with the greater part of men , then solid arguments , ) when 't is so apparently peccant against the gospel rules of the god of order ? yet let not this be thought an accusation of all the congregational brethren . many there are ( we know ) that judge these proceedings irregular as well as we ; and that are afraid to boast in another mans line , of things made ready to their hand , choosing to wait with hope for the enlargement of their churches and comfort , from the reformation and growth of those that are under their own ministry , rather then to make up their churches by entring upon other mens labours , 2 cor. 10. 15 , 16. 3. that the principles of the congregational brethren come up so far , that we think there would be no difference in this point , if they were practised . 1. they say , co-habitation of members is necessary , upon many spiritual accounts . vid. hooker survey , part 1. p. 49. such co-habitation ( saith he ) is required , which is necessary for the dispensation of gods ordinances , and the administration of church-censures ; for otherwise the end of the covenant would be made frustrate , and the benefit of the whole prejudiced ; and hence there must needs be such a co-habitation of officers , and a convenient company of members , that they comely and conveniently meet together , to the exercise of all gods ordinances , act. 14. 27. 1 cor. 11. 20. & . 14. 23. to the same purpose , norton contr. apoll. p. 40. 2. they acknowledge our churches ( at least , most of them ) to be true churches . mr. hooker rejects the denyal of this with abhorrency . 3. that therefore 't is unlawful to separate from them , either for the want of some ordinances , or for the fin of some worshippers . vid. hookker preface to the survey : and norton , p. 156. that these three principles are owned by them , will not be denyed ; and that they are inconsistent with the common practice of gathering churches out of other parishes , is too evident . will they call our churches true , and yet unchurch them , by taking our members against our consent ? will they say , that 't is unlawful to separate from our churches , and yet entertain and encourage those that separate ? will they say , co-habitation is necessary , and yet receive those that live many miles distant ? if any seek to evade this by saying , that though many , yet not all congregations in england are true churches . we answer , 1. it should then first be proved , ( and not taken for granted ) that such a congregation as they desire to receive members from , is no true church . 2. but who ( of all that take this liberty ) doth make a difference 'twixt one congregation and another , and forbears to take ( if opportunity serve ) from a congregation , reputed a true church . 3. how easily will this be objected against any church whence members be had , that 't is no true church ; and how must the controversie be decided ? facile credimus quod volumus . if it be further urged , that though our churches be true , yet are they corrupt : so that it may be lawfuli to withdraw communion from the same ; as in the ans. of elders of new-england , to the 32. quest . pag. 29. answ. we acknowledge with grief , that many of our congregations are corrupt . yet [ 1. ] this doth not in any wise justifie the gathering of members that inhabit not within convenient limits . [ 2. ] nor the gathereing out of those congregations which are more purged , though not according to the hight of strictness which some require . ames ( usually cited by our brethren in this point ) cas. consc. lib. 5. cap. 12. q. 3. mentions but three causes of separation from a true church : 1. participation of their sins . 2. eminent danger of seduction . 3. persecution . and yet these are not applicable to many presbyterian churches , from whom nevertheless members are withdrawn . true indeed , mr. norton adds a fourth ; separation may be ( saith he , p. 168. ) for purer worship and edification , no great inconvenience ensuing . but there lies much weight in the last words ; otherwise upon this ground men might shift from one congregational-church to another for purer worship , as well as from a presbyterian to a congregational-church . but ( 3. ) is it the best , most warrantable , and most effectual course of curing a corrupt church , to take away from it the best christians it hath ? or are you sure that you can justifie before the lord , your weakning the hands and hearts of other ministers , that are upon the reformation of their more corrupt churches , which you unavoidably do by this practice . many have thought , that it were a better expedient to disperse good members into less pure churches , that so there might be most help , where there is most need . if any say , this is a grievous yoke for tender consciences . we answer : 1. tender consciences ought to be universally tender ; why also are they not tender of breaking rule , and of being examples of disorder , and introducing the many inconveniences that attend this practice ? 2. we think we have provided as much for a tender conscience , as a truly tender conscience can require . do we engage them to be without ordinances or membership , in case there be no minister of their own ? or do we engage them to scandalous and insufficient ministers ? if any will desire to depart when they can plead none of these ; we fear it be humor , or ignorance , more then tenderness of conscience , to those that would plead that we may tye them from church-ordinances , ( as in case the minister where they live forbear them upon the general unfitness of his people . ) 't is readily answered , we provide help for that , he may enjoy them for the present in other congregations . they that say , by this means they shall be hindered from some minister with whom they can most profit ; may be pleased to answer these questions : whence is your profiting ? is it from the minister and his ability , or from god ? is it likely that god will give the success you , expect out of his own way ? we deny not but the god of order may overlook your irregularities , and give divine influence while ye seek it in a disorderly way . but what reason have ye to expect it in your way ? do ye certainly know that ye have profited , or that all your joy which you have got in this course is solid ? are there not sensible consolations , even in holy men ? and do not these run with a violent stream ? may they not mistake their own spirits upon that account ? may you not profit more , for ought you know , in humble waiting on god where he hath set you ? and might you not more cheerfully expect it here then elsewhere ? many serious christians have thought , and found it to be the most hopeful , ready , certain way of a speedy increase of grace , and of attainment of more real and lasting comfort , for a man to bestirre himself in the instruction , reproof , and reformation of the people with whom he lives ( this affords opportunity and advantage for the exercise of grace ; and exercise is one of the best wayes to increase it ) rather then to remove to the ministery of a man of quicker and abler parts . some may ( possibly ) except against the condescention of our brethren of the congregational-judgement , in point of ordination , mentioned prop. 17. let such consider : 1. that ordination by the people is one of the main occasions of offence to the presbyterian brethren , who in this regard do not know how to own men , so ordained , for ministers ; and then surely , if it were possible , this offence should be removed . 2. this proposition doth not take away the election from the people , which the congregational-brethren look upon as the chief thing . 3. we are agreed , that such ordination shall be performed in the congregation , unto which the person is to be ordained . 4. albeit , the congregational brethren affirm , that an inorganicall church , and homogeneal , may ordain ; yet 't is not against their principles , that ministers of other churches do it for them . mr. hooker affirms as much out of didoc . survey part 2. p. 57. ( speaking of those that are to ordain ) by eldership then is meant the officers ; but whether they were the pastor and teacher , and the ruling elders of one congregation , called a consistory ; or whether they were the officers of many congregations together , termed a classis : i could never yet hear any arguments that could evince either by dint of undenyable evidence . and more fully , p. 59. though it be most comely that those of the same congregation should exercise it , yet the elders also of other congregations may be invited hereunto , and interested in the exercise of it , in an other church where they have no power . and the liberty which they allow to ministers of preaching and administring the seals in other congregations besides their own , as also the requiring of the counsel and help of other ministers for the tryal of a person to be ordained over an other church ( which is allowed and advised too by ames . bellar. enerv. tom. 2. & norton p. 101. ) will also prove this condescention sutable to their principles . mr. allin , and mr. shepheard in the defence of the 9. positions , p. 132. grant , that a minister may put forth an occasional act of power , or precariam potestatem to those in an other church , over whom he is no officer ( though it be not towards them as over his own flock ) and that though an officer of one church , is no officer over an other church , yet such an officer may put forth acts of his officer towards those that are not of his proper flock . and if so , why not this act of power as well as an other ? why may they not ordain , as well as administer sacraments in another church ? mr. firmin ( a congregational-brother , and one thus ordained ) in his epist. before his serious question , gives us the report , that of late this is practised in new-england ; which also we have had confirmed to us by others . and should not this then be yeilded unto for the churches peace ? 5. although the congregational-brethren should think the peoples election greater then ordination , yet if they yeild to ordination as aforesaid , the presbyterian-brethren can comfortably own them as ministers of the gospel ; for so long as they have both , there is no doubt to be made , but that they have all essentials of an outward call to the office of a minister ; though we run up severall lines , yet we all meet in the same point . one thing more there is which some may peradventure stumble at , which is the supplying the want of elders by the assistance of neighbouring-ministers , of which in prop. 19. the reasons of which practice are hinted in the proposition ; and the cautions for the right understanding of it , are subjoyned to it , so that we may say the less . we would not have adventured upon any thing not ordinary ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 did not compel us . they that understand the controversse about government , know , 1. that all are not satisfied concerning ruling elders . 2. and others are not satisfied concerning the power of a minister to act alone in these things , where elders are not to be had . and such is the general state of our people , that in case we were all satisfied in the first , yet can we not at present act in that course , for want of fit men to be imployed in that office . so that such of us as are not satisfied concerning the ministers sole power , must either take some such course , or do nothing . if our present case then be well considered , we hope men will not be so ready to except against it . that in such a case , where the ordinary course cannot be followed , some extraordinary way may be taken , is not only our assertion , but the assertion and practice of others ( in other cases ) whose authority we suppose will not be slightly overlooked by pious and intelligent men ; we mean the assembly , who in their advice concerning ordination , lay this down as a certain conclusion , which they prove 2 chron 29. 34 , 36. where the levi●●s ( which was beside the ordinary rule ) helped the priests to slay the burnt offerings , they being too few to do it by themselves . and also 2 chr. 30. 3 , 4. which proposition will as much justifie us in this particular , as them in an extraordinary expedient for ordination ; which as things then stood , was necessary ; and for which this was produced by them . that this course is neerest to the ordinary rule , we think is apparent . 1. the work is done by ministers , of which number the minister of the congregation is one : here is one part of the ordinary rule kept up . 2. the end may be as well attained in this , as in the ordinary course : none ( we hope ) will say this is a less safe proceeding , in reference to the justness of admission and rejection . 3. many suppose , that as in the planting of the first churches , all things were managed by ministers in common , till the churches were setled ; so in the reformation of corrupt churches , things cannot be carried on any other way , till the churches be brought into some order . 4. this is no other then what the assembly advise , in the form of church government , where in the want of an ordinary elder-ship , they direct , that such a congregation should be under the inspection of the associated neighbouring-officers . many other things there are which we would have insisted on , but others having writ so fully of them , we shall pass them over in silence . many exceptions also we foresee , some of ignorant & wilful men , which we conceive not worthy to be taken notice of ; others of learned men , which we apprehend not fit to trouble the weak withal . we are not ignorant , that the distinction of forum ecclesiae & dei ( which we make use of ) is questioned by some ; as mr. blake cov. sealed p. 141. but the sense in which we use it , lies not open to his exceptions . we deny not but that forum ecclesiae is a court of gods constituting , and in that regard , 't is also forum dei ; but we only use it to express that external right which professors have , by vertue of those directions which god hath given for the regulating of church-affairs ( whether this be a real , or onely an analogicall right we meddle not ) as it stands in opposition to the internal and gracious acceptance of god . the usual exceptions about scandals not enumerated , need not trouble us . when we assent to the assemblies directions , about sins scandalous in one single act , though we say that we look upon all the sins mentioned by them as such ; yet we say not that we look upon them only as such . so that when any thing of that nature falls out , we are agreed to consult the association about it . some may likewise think our using the assemblies direction ( in those principles of religion set down by them ) for tryal of knowledge , to be superfluous , seeing we might have made use of our confession for that end . but we have not done this without weighty reasons ( as seems to us ) which for brevitie sake we mention not . and seeing the worst that can be said against this , is but to charge us with an unnecessary redundancy ( which yet judicious men will not do ) we are the less careful to spend time about it . as for the confession it self , we have added it as an exposition to the creed ; and yet not out of any affectaion of novelty or singularity . they that know any thing of the history of the church , know that it hath not been unusual to compose and recommend several forms of confessions of faith ; and that in such cases those things were most insisted on , which were then most questioned and opposed ; wise men ( we know ) will not take exceptions against the thing it self . 't is not a new faith that we propound , but that which was of old delivered unto the saints ; none ( surely ) but blind and perverse men will think to bring it into contempt by calling it a new creed . if the exceptions lie against our persons , as unfit to compose or recommend such a thing ; we have this to say , that as we conceived such a thing necessary , ( as the case of the church now stands ) so were we most desirous to have used what others have done before us , rather then by our example to encourage a rash , indeliberate , or perverse undertaking of men in this kinde , or whatsoever inconveniences might follow the common practise hereof . yet while some confessions ( which others use ) pleased not all , as to method , and form , and the like : it was propounded that we should set the assemblies confession and catechism before us , as our rule , that a short confession should be drawn out of them , and as near as could be in their very words . and this course accordingly was agreed on : so that we would not have you to look upon it as ours , but the assemblies , onely epitomized by us . having put you in minde of these things , we shall now conclude with exhortation . 1. we beseech you brethren , in the name of our lord jesus , prosecute union and concord : let the peace of the church lie very neer your hearts . this is so much in mens mouths , prayers and wishes , that it would seem not to stand need of many arguments to inforce it : and indeed it would not , if mens endeavours were but answerable to their expressions ; but the thing is so precious , and men ( notwithstanding their complemental pretences ) so really backward , that it requires more then at present we can say . 1. our profession is a profession of peace ; concord is a necessary ingredient of religion , both in respect of its preservation and propagation . the scripture telling us of the bond of peace , and calling love the bond of perfectness , doth more then hint how much religion is beholding to it , both as to life and growth . the gospel indeed doth occasion wars , and thrives by them , while her professors are at peace among themselves : but if dissention among brethren arise , ruin hastens on , a kingdome divided cannot stand . so much of religion is wrapt up in it , that god stiles himself by that name . and christ looks upon it as one of his honourable titles , [ king of peace . ] and that we may know how much he delights to have us resemble him in this , he puts that name upon his gospel , and children . it runs through all the veins of religion , and is as inseperable from it as holiness , the wisdome from above is peaceable , as well as pure , sam. 3. 17. 2 how many ingagements hath the lord laid upon us for unity ? would he have inculcated his exhortations to amity and peace so often , if it had been a superfluous , unnecessary , indifferent accident of religion ? what book almost of the new testament is there that recommends it not ? read rom. 16. 17 , 18. and 15. 1 , 2 , 3. 1 cor. 1. 10 , 11. with many places more ; or would he have pressed it so earnestly , if he would not have had us forward in it ? paul exhorts and conjures the philippians chap. 2. ver. 1. by all the ingagements of love betwixt christ and them , and by all the bonds of affection , pitie and duty betwixt himself and them , to be {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} unanimous of the same soul ; his words are affectionate and pressing ; if there be therefore any consolation in christ ; if any comfort of love , if any fellowship of the spirit , if any bowels of mercies , fulfil ye my joy , that ye be like minded , &c. and in eph. 4. 1. 3 , 4 , 5 , 6. he urgeth it by seven strong motives : david in psal. 133. calls it not onely good in it self , but also pleasant in its fruits and exercise . christ makes it the great character of his disciples , and annexeth large and glorious promises to it . and besides all these , our own confessions of the happiness and necessity of concord ( wrung from our own lips , by the smart of our divisions ) and our prayers for it , as a choice blessing , are strong obligations upon us for the prosecution of it . 3. why is the rod yet upon our backs ? is not this one main cause , that we know not how to agree among our selves ? doubtless our falling out by the way is displeasing to the lord : when the lord was about to heal us we have fallen together by the ears , and set up altar against altar ; church against church : the lord hath seen it , and hath turned us back into the wilderness : shall wee not learn yet to be friends , when the lord hath been forced to whip us for our contention ? doubtless we cannot expect the healing of the land till our mindes are more peaceable , and the noise of the axe and hammer cease ; the house of god will not be built , till the materials be fitted for a close and orderly conjunction . 4. is it seasonable now to contend when we are upon the very brink of ruine ? if we were not asleep , or if god had not besotted and benummed us , in order to destruction , ( for quos perdere vult dementat ) would we not be more sensible of our danger then to trifle and contend when the ship is now almost overwhelmed with the waves ? what greater advantage can wee give to the common adversaries ? who looks upon our divisions as the hopefullest stratagem to further their design ? how easie is the conquest when wee have weakned our selves ? what will they have to do more then to look on , and gather the spoil ? forrain invasions is usually a means of cementing a nation , under civil contests : and why do not we see this necessary upon the churches account ? is it not enough for moab and ammon and mount seir to be against us , but we must needs be one against another ? true , divine anger hath stirred up the waves , and made the sea boisterous , and now ( as basil epist. 5. makes the comparison ) we are ready to bee destroyed , not so much from the violence of the storm , as our clashing one against another . oh! remember it 's easie to break a divided church ; but if once broken , who knows whether ever it may be made up again . basil in epist. 203. compares the church to an old garment which is soon torn , but not so soon mended ; he saith not at all , ( {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) and speaks of its recovery as hopeless . see how our strifes gratifie our adversaries ! 1. while we are busie one against another , we give them opportunity to undermine us ; the dust we have raised , gives incouragement to them that work unseen , and also afford tools to work withall , and advantages to work upon . 2. the scoffs they cast upon us keep off many , and so weakens us by with-drawing a party ; which though it close not with them directly , yet they serve as a blinde to cover their secret contrivances against us . 3. we put an argument into their mouths against our selves ; they conclude against the truth of our churches from our disagreement . the papists , as bellarmine , and all of that way that speak of the notes of a church , as also quakers make use of this to prove us no true church . how quarrels and divisions among christians occasioned the persecutions of the heathen emperors , and were made use of to justifie their cruelty , is too apparent . 5. we not onely hazard all for the future ; but at present we taste so much of the bitter fruits , as may make us lay aside our contendings : who sees not how much the honor of religion , the glory of the christian name , and of gods name too , is wounded by it ? we have striven so long about smaller matters , that others begin to question all , and with a daring hand to shake the main pillars of religion . and these strivings about government gave the first hint of takeing up notions , and encouragement to those errors to appear boldly with open face , which otherwise would not have dared to have peeped out of their graves . and those that adhere to the truth , are not a little prejudiced by it , as to piety and growth in grace : if that heat and diligence which hath been spent in the pursuance of these questions , had been laid out for the improvement of godliness , oh! what glorious christians should we have had ! how wearisome and tedious are these civill broyles ? what mistakes , revilings , and unseemly expressions have they occasioned ? how much hath our communion with god been interrupted by them ? and how much of our sweetness and inward peace , while we were necessitated to study , and dwell upon such unpleasing subjects ? o ye sons of peace ! why do ye so forget your name , your fathers name , the gospels name ? why are you so pitiless to the distracted church , your distressed mother ? hath custome so naturalized you to contention , that you will rather venture the reputation of religion , weaken your own graces , abate your comforts , straighten the passages of intercourse 'twixt god and your own souls , then be perswaded to bee at peace ? doubtless , if we hold long at this , we shall have cause to value peace at a higher rate than many of our questionings , when perhaps we cannot so easily obtain it . but this is a thing which ( by vertue of divine authority ) will claim a greater interest in our endeavours then our bare wishes and prayers will amount unto ; in rom. 14. 19. we are bid ( {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) to prosecute it while it flies from us ; not barely to meet and accept it , when it comes to us ; 't is a sad contradiction ( nay a self-conviction and condemnation ) to pray for it , and yet not to pursue it . true , all would have peace ; but then they would have others to come up to their terms , while they in the mean time refuse to descend to others ; so that the hinderance is from hence , not that peace is not desired , but not rightly prosecuted . there are fit mediums and foundations for peace , which we are ingaged to look after as well as peace it self ; in the fore-mentioned place the apostle bids us follow not barely {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} but {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} things that concern it , and may conduce thereunto ; would but men consider that they are ingaged to this , and conscienciously obey the divine command herein , peace would not long be a stranger to us . we know some that eagerly press peace , propound no other foundation for it then union of affection , with a mutual toleration of differences : but alas , this will not heal the wound , nay scarce skin it over , so long as no course is taken to heal our differences ( especially in those things wherein we intrench upon one anothers interest ) it will be found a task next to an impossiblity to cement affections : we know when all is done , there will be a need of that principle ; but yet it must be condescention in the smaller things of difference , that must do the work they that will not sacrifice their punctillo's for the churches peace , do not value peace of the church as they ought . the great controversie 'twixt believing jews and gentiles was thus composed by the synod of the apostles , act. 15. the gentiles were so far to condescend , on their part , as to submit to the four precepts of noah : and the jews so far to condescend to the gentiles , as not to press circumcision and other ceremonies upon them . neither do we see how peace can be setled in these churches upon other terms ; shall the presbyterian and congregational brethren stand at a distance still ? then they mutually hinder one anothers work , and betwixt them endanger the interest of the gospel : would you have either of them to drive on their way to the overthrow of the other ? that 's unchristian , unbrotherly , unmerciful : is there hope of convincing each other , and so of one party to come over to the other ? that 's not to be expected : is there a probability of union of affection while the difference stands as wide as before ? experience teacheth the contrary ; alienation of affections is the onely issue of different judgement and practice . what other thing then can be thought of , besides mutual condescention in less things ? and if both parties would but stand to what hath been written on either side , and improve their mutual concessions , the composure of the difference would in a great part be effected . and as for the remaining differences , if they were put to this issue , how far we ought to yeeld for peace ? it would ( through gods blessing ) be quickly compleaed . the greatest difficulty is from the distemper of mens heads and hearts ; the distance of principles is not half so great as the distance of affections . the due respect that ( for conscience sake ) is to be had to the common lafety and welfare of the church , together with what is already yeilded unto by the several parties , will take away a great part of the difference ; the disagreement in several other principles ( though it should continue ) need not hinder union in the practice of those very things about which the disagreement is , and an agreemen thus far is the most hopeful course to satisfie one another in other things ; to debate things in such a calm way , gives more hope of divine approbation and blessing , and less advantage to satan of working upon the humors and passions of men , which usually darken the judgement , even of those that seek the truth , and hinders satisfaction . if a composing designe prosper not , we suspect the hinderance will chiefly arise from some of these evills . 1. some are pleased with nothing which themselves propound not ; many are so desirous to be leaders , and have such an immoderate ambition after an ego primus inveni , that they think it a disgrace to be followers , though in a necessary work . this thistle will grow sometime in good ground , and good men have cause to watch against it : the disagreement of luther from oecolampadius in the business of pulling down of images , is said to have sprung from this root . 2. ignorance ( we fear ) will prove as great an enemy to peace , as any thing else : many understand only the practike part of their own way , not fully knowing the extent , limits , necessity , and indifferencie of their several principles : these even out of a zeal to truth , will stand off , as not knowing how far they may safely yeild . 3. many are engaged , and they will finde it a hard task to deny themselves in point of honor and credit , which they will think must be lost if they alter their course ; this will stick in the heart many a time , when the mouth will be ready to proclaim it to be the highest honor for any man to be conquered by truth and peace . 4. many ministers ( and yet they must be leading-men , if such a thing as this go on ) are so over-driven by their friends and members of their congregations , that they dare do little for fear of displeasing them ; an unworthy spirit in a minister of the gospel . 5. some are so imbittered and exasperated , that their blood is not easily cooled , to condescend to those whom but now they opposed . 6. some delight in quarrels , and are only whetted up to embrace a way , or to continue in it because of opposition ; their zeal is not so much from love or conviction of the truth , as from an angry desire to contradict ; like souldiers of fortune , who , because they live by the wars , are unwilling to hear of peace . 7. some want publike spirits ; others want publike principles ; the former care not , so much as they should , what becomes of other churches , so long as they have the ball at their own foot , and things go with them as they would have it . the latter are so straitned and pinioned in themselves , that , if they would , they cannot be very serviceable , these having but some one thing in their eye , ( as suppose purity or peace ) prosecute that to the ruine and neglect of other things necessary . 8. some have drunk in such strong prejudices against their brethren , that fancying the difference to be greater then it is , and supposing a closure either unlawful , or scarce possible , they are the more backward to hearken to any thing tending to a composure . 9. some place too much of their religion in standing off from others , as if the excellency & height of christianity lay in a rigid seperation from those professors which are of a lower size ; and therefore will be more hardly drawn to remit any thing of their supposed necessary strictness , rather desiring to please themselves , then to bear the infirmities of the weak , suspecting even necessary provisions for the admission of such as favouring too much of looseness , and that which may bring upon them a participation of other mens sins . 10. some ( it may be ) think , an utter refusal of peace with the presbyterians is but a just requital of that rigour and harshness which they used to others when they had the chair . we do not justifie the failings and irregularities of any ; all parties ( we think ) have too much cause to acknowledge themselves guilty before the lord , and to be humbled ; but if any make this a ground of distance , let him call to minde that , in so doing , he becomes guilty of that which he condemns in them : nay , let him know , that whatever were the miscarriages of some particular men at that time ; yet the assembly were even then no less desirous of concord with the dissenting brethren , then others are at this present : they that will read the papers of accommodation annexed to the reasons of the dissenting brethren , may sufficiently satisfie themselves in this . so powerful and so frequent are these distempers in many of all parties ( we intend them not as an accusation of any particular man ) that except the lord command these proud waves to be still , and take down the loftiness of all our hearts ( which is the root whence all these evils spring ) we cannot hope for any great success in this designe of concord , notwithstanding that our several principles make so fair a way for it . if it would please the lord to do this for us , & withal to stir up a constantine or a theodosius , that might rigorously press on this work , by countenancing it where it is endeavoured , by calling the godly ministery of the land to consultation , by charging them to agree , and holding them to it , we should quickly see the face of things altered ; ephraim would not any more envy iudah , and iudah would not vex ephraim . 2. we exhort you to submit to the discipline and government of christ : obey them that have the rule over you , and submit your selves ; for they watch for your souls , as they that must give account , that they may do it with joy , and not with grief , for that is unprofitable for you . heb. 13. 17. the great quarrel that carnal hearts have against christ , is about the laws and scepter of his kingdom : this is that that renders him so unlovely to them . to such men we shall propound four things , which we desire they should seriously weigh . 1. the government and discipline is not ours , but christs : true indeed , he hath appointed his officers to manage it , and for that end hath made them rulers over you , but yet they are over you in the lord , 1 thes. 5. 13. and as those that must give an account for you , and therefore charges you to obey and submit to such ; not only to obey their doctrine , but also to submit to their reproof and censures , heb. 13. 17. and because the consideration of their inspection may be a means to prevent sins in you , therefore he commands you to remember them which have the rule over you , v. 7. and in 1 thess. 5. 12 , 13. know them which labour among you ; that is , acknowledge ( for {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} non est simpliciter cognoscere sed agnoscere . zanch. ) them as rulers appointed over you by god , obeying and reverencing them accordingly ; and that not only in their teaching when they labour among you , but also in their ruling-work when they admonish you . and though the effect of this might be sometime displeasing to you , yet notwithstanding he chargeth you to esteem them very highly in love , ( {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) very abundantly , more then exceedingly for their work sake . oh! then take heed of that rebellious voice , which cost korah and his company so deer , numb. 16. 3. ye take too much upon you ; wherefore lift you up your selves above the congregation of the lord ? 2. if ye refuse and rebell , you do not so much despise us as christ , who hath imployed us ; the cause is not ours , but his ; and the contempt is principally against the king of peace : he fully tels you all this , luk 10. 16 that heareth you , heareth me ; and he that despiseth you , despiseth me ; and he that despiseth me , despiseth him that sent me . say not in your hearts as those wicked ones , vve will not have this man to rule over us . 3. consider the issue ; will ye think to gain any thing by rejecting his government ? do you not remember that he hath an iron rod , as well as a scepter of mercy ? if ye refuse the yokes of wood , can he not put an iron yoke upon your neck ? think not to bear out in a bravado against god , though like the wilde ass in the wilderness , you should snuff up the winde , and traverse on your way , or bend your brow against him ; yet , will the almighty be afraid of your frown ? or will he make supplications to you ? oh vain man ! bethink thy self how thou wilt answer thy contempt if thou dost continue . 4. there is nothing in the government of christ , that should make a rational man refuse it , ( we speak of government and discipline in the main , and not of the controverted points of it ) that there must be rulers and ruled in the church , is not questioned ; and that the ruled must submit to the direction , admonition and reproof of their rulers ; and that in some cases sinners must be sharply dealt withall by publike rebuke , 1 tim. 5. 20. and sometimes by excommunication , matt. 18. 17. 1 cor. 5. 4 , 5 , 13. all these are evident . now though these thwart the carnal interests of men , and are no wayes pleasing to flesh and blood , yet seeing all is for edification , and not destruction , 2 cor. 10. 8. & 13. 10. for the destruction of the flesh , that the spirit may be saved in the day of the lord iesus , 1 cor. 5. 5. what man is there , that prefers heaven before hell , or the safety of his soul before bodily ease and credit , that will turn his back upon these necessary , though sharp medicines ? how then can you profess christ , and yet refuse to submit to the righteous scepter of his kingdom ? 3. beware , lest you also being led away with the error of the wicked , fall from your own stedfastness ; be not children tossed to and fro with every winde of doctrine , by the slight of men , and cunning craftiness , whereby they lie in wait to deceive . 't is the glory of a christian to be steady and unmoveable , holding fast the faith once delivered to the saints . we would not be over-tedious , and therefore shall set before you but some of those many considerations which might here be urged . 1. god doth permit these swarms of errors for the tryal of his people , and the discovery of hypocrites and rotten professors . paul ( in 1 cor. 11. 19. ) tells us , heresies must be , ( they are not only possible but necessary ) that they which are approved might-be made manifest ; and that they that went out from us might be made manifest that they were not all of us , 1 joh. 2. 19. 2. do you not see it frequently , that they who make shipwrack of faith , make also shipwrack of a good conscience ? do not erroneous principles in wicked and licencious practices ? it is too visible in the carriage of many already , and of others , you may easily guess what will follow , when they are more hardened in error . and dare you take that for truth which hath a natural tendencie to looseness and liberty ? how far these principles of following the light within , and of absolute perfection , ( which will at last bring in either a denyal of fornication and lying , &c. to be sins , or to be theirs that act them ) and several others are directly improveable this way , we need not tell you . 3. have you not observed how fickle and uncertain error is ? when once men are turned off from the truth , they readily fall into a dislike of the errors , which at first they doted on , ( after they are stale ) for the entertainment of a new error , when grown into fashion ; and so from one error to another , till they arrive at atheism , if god in pitty stop them not ; like a stone , when once set a going down the hill , it rowles still till it come to the bottom . 4. consider the dreadful threatning of the lord against those that received the truth , but not in the love of it : read and study wel that text of 2 thess. 2. 11. for this cause god shall send them strong delusions , that they should believe a lye , that they all might be damned who believed not the truth , but had pleasure in unrighteousness . and forget not the danger of apostacie : see heb. 6. 4 , 5 , 6. & 10. 26. 't is a sad sentence , ( though we should take the most favourable construction that is given of it ) to say , there remains no more sacrifice for sins , and that 't is impossible to renew them again by repentance . 5. the hand of god is so visibly against them , that they that will not see it , are inexcusably blind . what god hath done in germany , and of late in new-england , ought not to be slightly passed over . and how heavy spiritual judgements are upon apostates , several of our own counties are sad and sufficient examples : when god suffers error to draw men beyond the bounds of reason , modesty and natural conscience ; when that which they seemed to have is taken away ; their gifts withered , and their former seeming religious observation of duty quite dryed up by the roots : surely his minde is , that we should take warning by their dreadful fall . as for the quakers , one would think their actions and principles would make a man that had any of common reason left , to abominate and abhor them : sure we are , the prevalency of that madness , is not from any strength of rational , or scriptural satisfaction , ( we have seen many strongly and passionately possessed with that , who yet neither understood it , nor could give a reason for it ) but from an {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} the efficacie and strength of delusion , through divine judgement upon them : shall we need to put you in minde of that which your selves know so well , and are eye and ear-witnesses of , as well as we ? how visible is the devils 〈◊〉 in the beastly nakedness of men and women in our assemblies ? in what a strange unchristian temper of railing , reviling , 〈◊〉 , and lying do they appear in publike , insomuch that a scold with a stento●●an voice , is the fittest antagonist to undertake a dispute with them . what gross principles do they maintain ? as of setting up their conceits and experiences , as being of equal authority with the scriptures ; and that the scripture bindes not them , if not let on their hearts by a present impulse : their denying interpretations of scr●pture , under the name of meanings and additions : their following the light within : their pleading for a necessity of being saved , as adam should have been , by an absolute perfection : their grievous conceits concerning christ , to the subverting of the doctrine or his nature , offices and satisfaction : their neglect and denial of the observation of the lords day and ordinances , as baptism , and the lords supper , &c. we might tell you of their ridiculous interpretations of scripture , ( interpretation of scripture is a fault in other men , but none in them ) of their placing their religion in trivial things , as thou-ing , and keeping on the har , when yet the weightier matters of communion with god , are neglected . as also we might reckon up their self-contradictions , their ignorant and sottish conceits about the unlawfulness of using words which the scripture useth not , ( as trinity , sacrament , &c. ) or habits which the scripture speaks not of , when yet they cannot excuse themselves from what they condemn in others ; neither is it to be forgotten , that when they have stuffed a paper as full of lying and non-sense as it can hold , ( and we have many of them in our hands ) they blush not to father all upon the spirit of god . consider we pray you the case of those that have been entangled , and yet are pluck'd out as a brand out of the fire . consider the relation of iohn gilping well , ( you see what pittiful shifts they are put to , when they would seem to say something in answer to it ) observe what a favourable aspect all their opinions have to popery , and how visibly those poor creatures are acted by the jesuits , as by relation of the man of bristol , and others , it appears . what progress in grace , and true religious walking can you observe in them since their apostafie ? where is now their constant family and private prayers ? where is that conscientious fear ( which sometime they seemed to have ) of speaking evill of what they know not ? lastly , doth not all that they say against us ( under the reviling terms of baals priests , or priests of the world ) strike also against all those martyrs , which in queen maries time , and before , have laid down their lives for the testimony of jesus ? oh! then beware , if you love your own souls ; what is there here that can be called christian ? we could tell you of some christians in cumberland , that have thought it their duty to humble themselves solemnly before god for their inclinations this way ( when the error first appeared , and was not then well known ) and also to return thanks to god for preserving them from the infection ; and the reasons of their dislike of the quakers ( given in writing ) were most of these that we have hinted to you . 't is good to learn the danger of the snare from other mens dear-bought experience . mark therefore them which cause divisions and offences , contrary to the doctrine which yee have learned , and avoid them : for they that are such serve not the lord iesus , but their own belly , rom. 16. 17. we shall conclude this with that of 1 tim. 6. 3 , 4 , 5. if any man teach otherwise , and consent not to wholesome words , even the words of our lord jesus christ , and to the doctrine which is according to godliness , he is proud , knowing nothing , &c. from such withdraw thy self . 4. lastly , walk worthy of the vocation wherewith you are called , and let your conversation be such as becomes the gospel of christ ; ye cannot be happy without holiness ; except you be redeemed from your vain conversation , and have crucified the old man with his deeds , the flesh with the lusts thereof , and be renewed in the spirit of your mind , ye shal perish , and shal not enter into his rest . ye are sure that you can never be too holy , or that you can never do too much for god . gird up therefore the ioyns of your minde , and run the race that is set before you : be not affraid of being too precise , or of being reviled and hated for a puritane : take courage ; you are unworthy of such a prince of righteousness , if ye dare not own him ; how wil you deny your selves , & take up his cross , and follow him ( & upon other terms you cannot be his disciples ) if a word or a frown of man do discourage you ? be not ashamed of christ & his ways , even in their strictness , lest he be ashamed of you in his kingdom , mar. 8. 38 therfore walk circumspectly ; avoid the appearances & occasions of evil . sanctifie the sabbath conscientiously : set up prayer and instruction in your families : deal uprightly with all men . set a watch over your lips . take heed of giving offences . let your zeal and moderation be known to all . forget not to do good , and to distribute . do not satisfie your selves with a form of godliness , but labour after the power of it . endeavour to grow in grace , and knowledge . edifie one another ; warn the unruly ; comfort the feeble-minded ; support the weak ; consider one another , to provoke unto love and good works . keep up christian communion and society : let those that fear the lord speak often one to another , mal. 3. 16. but yet manage it wisely ; let other mens miscarriages in this kinde be a warning to you . keep within your sphere ; take heed of pride , and contempt of the weaker sort . lose not the end of christian society , by doating about questions and strifes of words , whereof cometh envy , strife , railing , evill surmises , perverse disputings of men of corrupt mindes , and destitute of the truth , 1 tim. 6. 4 , 5. let your discourses be sober , tending to the promoting of grace , duty and assurance . these counties of cumberland and vvestmerland have been hitherto as a proverb and a by-word in respect of ignorance and prophaneness ; men were ready to say of them as the jews of nazareth , can any good thing come out of them ? let us now labour to become a blessing and a praise , that people may say concerning us , behold in the vvilderness waters have broken out , and streams in the desart ; the parched ground is become a pole , and the thirsty land springs of water ; it doth rejoyce and blossome as the rose . therefore beloved brethren , be ye stedfast , unmovable , alwayes abounding in the work of the lord ; for as much as you know that your labour is not in vain in the lord . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a86016e-240 † things not essential . * in respect of the church . notes for div a86016e-1650 a deut. 6. 4. 1 chron. 8. 4. 6. i believe in god , the father almighty , maker of heaven and earth . and in iesus christ his onely sonne our lord , which was conceived by the holy ghost , borne of the virgin mary , suffered under pontius pilate , was crucified , dead , and buried . he descended into hell . the third day hee pose againe from the dead . hee ascended into heaven , and sitteth at the right hand of god , the father almighty . from thence he shall come to iudge the quick and the dead . i believe in the holy ghost . the holy catholike church . the communion of saints . the forgiveness of sins . the resurrection of the body , and the life everlasting . amen . b 1 thes. 1. 9. ier. 10. 10. c io. 4. 24. d iob 11. 7 , 8 , 9. e 1 ioh. 5. 7. 2 cor. 13. 14. mat. 28. 19. f 2 pet. 1. 21. g 2 tim. 3. 16 , 17. eph. 2. 20. rev. 22. 18 , 19. h gen. 1. i heb. 1. 3. k ps. 103. 19. & 13 5. 6. l eph. 1. 11. mat. 10. 29 , 30. m gen. 1. 26 , 27. col. 3. 10. eph. 4. 24. n rom. 2. 14 , 15 o gen. 2. 17. gal. 3. 10. p gen. 3. 6 , 7 , 8 q gen. 2. 17. with rom. 5. 12. 18 , 19. eph. 2. 1 , 2. 3. r rom. 5. 6. & 8. 3. s io. 3. 16 , 17. t gen. 3. 15. 1 u gal. 4. 4. w heb. 2. 14 16 x 1 tim. 2. 5. rom. 5. 15. y luk. 1. 27 , 31 , 35 , 42. & 2. 7. gal. 4 4 z heb. 4. 15. 2 cor. 5. 2i . a mat. 3. 15. & 5. 17. b gal. 3. 13. c luk. 23. 33 ph. 2. 8. d 1 cor. 15. 4. e acts 1. 9 , 10. f eph. 1. 20. rom. 8. 34 g heb. 7. 25. h act 13. 48. i rom. 11. 7. k eph. 1 4 , 5. l eph. 2. 8. ioh. 6. 37. m eph. 3. 17. 1 cor 1. 9. col. 1 88. n eph. 1. 22. 23. & 4. 15 , 16. o rom 8. 30. p io. 1. 12. eph. 1. 5. q 1 co. 6. 11. eph. 2. 10. r 1 co. 1. 9. eph. 1. 3. s rom. 10. 17. t 1 pet. 2. 2. u act 2. 42. 46. w neh. 8. 1 , 2 3. acts. 15. 21. mat. 28. 19 , 20 2 tim. 4. 2. acts 2. 42. col. 3. 16. 1 cor. 11. 24 , 25 , 26. heb. 3. 13. levit. 19. 17. mat. 18. 17 , 18. 1 cor. 5. ult. x 2 cor. 3. 11. eph , 4. 12. 13. heb. 12. 27. matth , 28. 19 , 20. 1 cor. 11. 26. 1 tim. 6. 14. y acts 1. 11. 1 thes. 4 , 16 , 17 , z 1 cor. 15. 12. to the end . † 2 cor. 5. 10. * mat. 25 31. to the end . a deut. 26. 16 b psa. 73. 25. to the end . & 4. 6 , 7. c phil. 3. 8 , 9. d psal. 51. 11 eph. 4. 30. e deut. 6. 5. mat. 22 37. luk. 10. 37. f iosh. 24. 14. g numb. 15. 39 , 40. deu. 12. 32. h mat. 10. 38 16. 24. luk. 9. 23. & 14. 26. i rev. 2. 10. mat. 10. 22. k acts 2. 42. 46. heb. 10. 25. l mat. 18. 15 , 16 , 17. m 2 cor. 13. 10. & 108. n 1 thes. 5. 12 , 13. heb. 13. 17. o heb. 3. 13. lev. 19. 17. eph. 5. 11. notes for div a86016e-2510 * may he not then juridically debar others that are in a like capacity of improving the ordinance ? * by whom the congregation might be offended . * art. 4 , 5. notwithstanding this , calls the scandalous mans receiving , sacrilegii crimen , peccatum multis al●is gravius , and affirms the party mortaliter peccare , & sacramentum violare , & in art. &c. short and plaine animadversions on some passages in mr. dels sermon first preached before the honourable house of commons on novemb. 25. 1646. but since printed without their order setting forth the many dangerous and destructive assertions therein both to church and state, the covenant, and the reformation so much desired. together, with an answer to an unlicensed pamphlet annext to the sermon, entituled, a reply to master loves contradictions. by christopher love minister of anne aldersgate, london. the second edition. imprimatur ja. cranford. decemb. 17. 1646. love, christopher, 1618-1651. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a49256 of text r220429 in the english short title catalog (wing l3175). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 138 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 28 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a49256 wing l3175 estc r220429 99831831 99831831 36298 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a49256) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 36298) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 2128:1) short and plaine animadversions on some passages in mr. dels sermon first preached before the honourable house of commons on novemb. 25. 1646. but since printed without their order setting forth the many dangerous and destructive assertions therein both to church and state, the covenant, and the reformation so much desired. together, with an answer to an unlicensed pamphlet annext to the sermon, entituled, a reply to master loves contradictions. by christopher love minister of anne aldersgate, london. the second edition. imprimatur ja. cranford. decemb. 17. 1646. love, christopher, 1618-1651. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a49256 of text r220429 in the english short title catalog (wing l3175). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread [6], 33, [1], 33-44 p. printed by r. cotes, for iohn bellamie at the three golden lions in cornhill, neer the royall exchange, london : 1647. a reply to: dell, william. right reformation. "a short answer to an unlicensed pamphlet, entituled, a reply to the chiefe contradictions of master love's sermon" has caption title on e3r; register and pagination are continous. text and register are continuous despite pagination. reproduction of the original in the cambridge university library. eng dell, william, d. 1664. -right reformation -early works to 1800. church of england -government -early works to 1800. church polity -early works to 1800. great britain -church history -17th century -early works to 1800. a49256 r220429 (wing l3175). civilwar no short and plaine animadversions on some passages in mr. dels sermon first preached before the honourable house of commons on novemb. 25. 164 love, christopher 1647 25671 274 10 0 0 0 0 111 f the rate of 111 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the f category of texts with 100 or more defects per 10,000 words. 2002-12 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-01 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2003-02 olivia bottum sampled and proofread 2003-08 spi global rekeyed and resubmitted 2003-10 olivia bottum sampled and proofread 2003-10 olivia bottum text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-12 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion short and plaine animadversions on some passages in mr. dels sermon first preached before the honourable house of commons on novemb. 25. 1646. but since printed without their order . setting forth the many dangerous and destructive assertions therin both to church and state , the covenant , and the reformation so much desired . together , with an answer to an unlicensed pamphlet annext to the sermon , entituled , a reply to master love's contradictions . by christopher love minister of anne aldersgate , london . the second edition . gal. 2.11 . i withstood him to the face , because he was to be blamed . christianus magistratus animadvertit quidem in haereticos , verum sic moderatè ut sinc qui resipiscere possint , non patitur ut de fide doceant , nec permittit ut ecclesias colligant , episcopos ordinent , alios privat honoribus , alios adimit civitatis communionem ▪ alios proscribit , alios mulcta pecuntaria punit , quod augustini temporibus factum esse legimus . ipsos impostores ac seductores , ne illi postquam incorrigibiles apparent , ultra quenquam seducant carceribus iuclusos , tandiu coercet ac detinet donec in se reuersi resipiscant ; sic coercendi suit qui cogi se ad bonum non sustinent . wolf . musculus in locis com. imprimatur ja. cranford . decemb. 17. 1646. london , printed by r. cotes , for iohn bellamie at the three golden lions in cornhill , neer the royall exchange ; 1647. to his excellency sir thomas fairfax , generall of the army raised by the parliament , in defence of the true protestant religion , &c. may it please your excellency : it was ordered by a divine hand , that i should preach before you in windsor castle , at your very first marching forth with this successefull army , at which time i treated ( from psal. 60.10 ) of gods marching forth with israels army , the footsteps of whose presence hath been seen within your campe : by the same hand it was likewise ordered , that i should preach in your presence , the very first fast day after your returne to london as a conqueror ; at which time i had a faire occasion to presse , that such who had bin serviceable to the church of god in its necessitous condition , ought from those they doe assist to have a requitall , in which i know none deserves a greater share then your excellency . great generall , i have presumed to make my humble and particular addresse , in dedicating these few lines to your excellency upon a double ground : 1. to take off a malicious mis-construction , which some made of what i delivered , laying my words on the rack of a tortured mis-interpretation , forcing them to speake what i never meant , as if in some passages of my sermon , i had some reflections on your excellent selfe ; whereas i can appeale to heaven , i had rather my tongue should cleave to the roof of my mouth , then that a thought should be in my heart , or a word drop from between my lips , to darken that glory which god hath cast upon you . 't is true in handling this doctrine , that such who are serviceable to the people of god in their necessitous condition , ought from those they do assist , to have a requitall , and to be sharers with them in their mercies , lest there should bee an ill use made thereof , as if the requitall of men for their service should be so far extended , as that they must be indulged in their evils , i was forced , to prevent this mistake , to lay down this caution , viz. that the requitall of men for their good service , must not extend so far as to tolerate them in their evills . * in exemplifying which caution , i gave this supposition , suppose a commander , ( who hath been valiant and faithfull in your most successefull and serviceable army ) should run into damnable heresies , to deny the divinity of christ , the immortality of the soul , the authority of the scriptures , though his valour and fidelity pleads for a requitall for his service , yet not for a toleration in these opinions . now they who wrest these words as if they reflected on your excellency , doe you infinitely more wrong , then they doe to so meane an one as i am that spake those words ; such who apply those words to your excellency , what doe they bat lay you under cond●mnation , as if you denyed the divinitie of christ , the immortality of the soule , or authority of the scriptures , which thoughts are farre from your noble breast ; your moderation is knowne to all men , and the soundnesse of your judgement touching this matter ; yea , which is your glory , that notwithstanding the cl●shing controversies of the times , you have still pursued your duty , and not cleaved unto parties . there was another passage in the sermon which some wrested , as if i aimed at your excellency . in the close of the caution i made use of a story out of plutarchs moralls , of one manlius , who being to wage war with the samnites , hee being to withdraw from the army for a while , left his sonne to command in chiefe , with this charge , that he should not give the samnites battail , without speciall order from him ; his sonne seeing a faire opportunity against the enemie , gave them battaile , fought valiantly , and got the victory : returning to his father a conquerour , told him what he had done ; his father did commend him for his valour , yet told him hee should lose his head for his disobedience . i onely intended the story to this end , to shew that heathens observed this rule , to gratifie men for their services , yet were so just they would punish them for their evils : now they that apply this story to your excellency , what doe they lesse then charge you of disobedience to the state you serve ? which malice it selfe cannot fasten upon you . there is one thing more i would cleere my selfe in your thoughts , viz. from an unjust aspersion that master dell casts upon me in his epistle dedicatory , as if i preacht against the articles at oxford ; i had thought i did so cleerly expresse my self in that matter , that none would have been so shamelesse as to lay such a thing to my charge , when i desired the honourable worthies of parliament to cast their eyes on the university of oxford to reform it your excellency very well knows , i did premise this clause , that in what i should say , i would no waies reflect on the articles at oxford , which being made , stands with the honour and iustice of the parliament to have them kept ; how unjustly then doth master dell censure me ? this is the first ground of my humble addresse to your excellency , that i might be rectus in curia , cleare in your noble thoughts . the second ground is this , to leave it to your excellencies thoughts , whether so dangerously an opinionated a man as master dell is , is fit to be a chaplain in your army , who saith , that if the assembly should condemne the doctrines he preacht , they were the enemies of the truth of christ , and the last prop of antichrist in the kingdom : yea , he saith further that the worke of reformation so much desired by the orthodox and godly presbyterian ministers and people , is the last and subtillest worke of antichrist that is now in hand ; and he that prevailes in this encounter , hath antichrist under his feet for ever . although what is desired is no more then is practised in all reformed churches , as most agreeable to the word , and is in part confirmed by the authority of parliament ; surely such doctrines as these would not onely blemish , but disturbe your army ; and though god hath cloathed them with strength to conquer men , yet if such doctrines should spread among them , errours will conquer them in the end . most noble generall , however some men ( whose tongues are their owne ) are so lavish of their expressions , not caring what they lay to their charge who are for presbyterian government , as if against parliament , the gospel , the army , and your excellent selfe , and what not ? though all these things be most precious in their eyes : as for your self , the people blesse god that you were borne , and brought forth for such a time as this ; as god raised up a moses first to begin our deliverances : hee hath made you a joshua to accomplish our hopes , and to bring us into the promised land . i dare say , what metellus thought the romans should doe ( viz. thanke the gods that so brave a warriour as scipio was borne in rome , ) that the people of england have done , blesse their god that hee hath taught your hands to fight , and your fingers to war , and layed the necks of your enemies under your feet ; the lord remember you according to the greatnesse of his mercy ; and the memorable deeds that you have done for this nation , which is the earnest prayer of your excellencies most humbly devoted in all service and duty christopher love . short and plaine animadversions on mr. dells sermon . discovering therein many passages to be destructive to church and state , the covenant , and reformation so much desired . christian reader , the distractions and divisions of the times ( increased by furious spirits venting their luxuriant opinions ) threaten sad things ; as if god hath a controversie with the land , and is writing bitter things against it ; or , as if the troubles we have hitherto undergone , were but the begining of our sorrows : fox * in his acts and monuments reports that the inlet to the eighth persecution , was the divisions among the christians , and want of discipline ; i wish it be not an inlet to as sad a calamity now . i can appeale to heaven , i delight not in bitternesse , and breaches among brethren ; i had rather bring water to quench , then oyle to increase the flame that is kindled among us ; i could wish with jonah i were cast into the sea , so that the boysterous storms arisen among us might be allayed thereby ; or with curtius ( who did cast himself into the chasma at rome , that so the breach might be made up and the city not indangered ) cast my self into the breach , if so be i could but stop it . i acknowledge to god and the world , i am so sensible of my own infirmities that i would bring nothing into the presse , but that i am prest thereunto , lest the truth and my integrity should suffer by my silence . the truth is , had not mr. dell discovered such confidence and boldnesse in delivering so many unsound and erroneous tenets , i had not exprest a word of dislike in the pulpit , and had hee not since printed his sermon with his reply ( and that without order ) i should not have gainesaid him now in the presse , as i did then in the pulpit . before i begin to take notice of any clause in his sermon in particular , i shall advertise the reader about this in generall , that ( although as it is printed , it is justly to be excepted against , yet ) he left out some materiall passages he did preach , and inserted what he did not ; so that i may say mr. dell dealt with his sermon as apelles the painter did with antigonus , who painted that part of his face which was comely , but hid most of his deformities . i shall now addresse my self to give innocent touches on severall unsound passages in his sermon . in the managing whereof i shall indevour that my pen drop honey , not vineger , reason against his opinions , not railing against his person . in the first place i cannot but take notice how unhappy my mistaken brother was in the expounding of his text , which was , heb. 9.10 . vntil the time of reformation . now this reformation he described to be the mortifying and destroying and utter abolishing out of the faithfull and elect , all that sin , lust , corruption , that did flow in upon them by the fall of adam . mr. dels sermon , pag. 4. lin. 34. now this is not the reformation intended in the text , for that reforma●ion which consists in the mortifying and destroying sin , &c. the faithfull and elect had under the law as well as beleevers under the gospel , so that the times under the law might be called in this sense a time of reformation , as well as the times of the gospell ; for then there was such a kinde of reformation ( consisting in the mortifying and destroying sin , &c. in the faithful and elect as wel as now . now mr. dell expounding the reformation in the text to be the mortifying destroying sin , &c. and likewise affirming ( as he doth , p. 3. l. 26. ) that this time of reformation was not til christs comming in the flesh , he must of necessity maintain that al the faithfull before and under the law had no such reformation as the mortifying & destroying of sin ; and so lays them under an impossibility of being saved , and so falls in with the socinians , who hold that neither grace nor any thing of the spirit , not eternall life was enjoyed by the elect under the law , untill christs comming in the flesh . mr. dels mistake in expounding his text , would make one think that he made his sermon before he chose his text ; some notions about reformation swimming in his brain , here meeting the with word ( though not the thing intended ) forc't it to serve his purpose ; though indeed it is little to the purpose ; yet is he not ashamed to say , this the spirit would have us take notice of in these word , serm. p. 4. l. 12. although indeed the spirit of god intended some other thing in this text , viz. that christ changed the leviticall ceremonies and sacrifices by offering himselfe a sacrifice once for all for the redemption and justification of the elect ; now the priesthood being changed and christ our high-priest being come , the yearly sacrifices taken away , & christ sacrificed once for al ; there being now a better priest , a better sacrifice , a better tabernacle then was under the law , this was called a time of reformation , so that the text carryes a reference to a change in the jewish services , not in the christians hearts . thus having briefly laid down his mistake in expounding his text , i proceed now to view some passages in his sermon . that he might gain attention and beliefe , he ushers in what he intends to say with this insinuating preamble . i shall represent in some gospel-light ( to this honourable auditory ) the true reformation of the church of the new testament , and blessed is he who shall not be offended at it . what a great flourish doth the man make , what a large promise doth he give ? parturiunt montes , nascetur ridiculus mus . this which he calls gospels light , when it comes to the triall , will be found a false light to put off counterfeit commodities by , instead of being a true gospel-light , is it not an ignis fatuus to bring men out of their way ? if by this gospel-light , about church-reformation , hee meanes that secular powers cannot reform the hearts of men , christ alone must do that , what needs such a triumph and boasting , as if he had got the victory , when as touching this he shal have no adversary ? and why should hee cry up this to be such a gospel-light ( as if all men should light their candels at his fire ) when every eye sees , and all hearts acknowledge , both in the generations before us , and in this present age , that it is christs worke alone to reforme the heart , and not mans ? but if by this gospel-light about the reformation of the church , he meanes that the civill magistrate , seeing he cannot reform the heart , hee must not restrain mens exorbitant practises , which was the intendment and scope of the sermon ; this is so farre from being gospel-light , that i shall discover it anon to bee grossenesse of darknesse , and yet must the hidden things of darknesse goe under the name of gospel-light ; and oh how sad is it to consider that so good a term should be a cover for so bad a practise ; to bee made a pander to so many wanton and adulterated opinions ? but mark further how he is taken with his own fancies , and the conceptions of his own brain , that he pronounceth them blessed who shall not be off●nded at it . 't is a wordes he doth not place this blessing of his among the beatitudes in christs first sermon , mat. 5. he may as well adde to scripture in the new testament , as hee hath added passages of his own to the ol● , which i shall mention by and by : behold i beseech you upon what ea●●e termes blessednesse is to be had , for not being offended at the ma●er of his sermon , surely 't is his blessing , not christs , which he is so prodigall of to bestow upon his disciples that imbrace his d●ctrine ; and if they be blessed who are not offended at mr. dels sermon , then how far from blessednesse in mr. dels opinion is the honorable house of commons , who are most of them offended at it , and the many thousands in city and country , who are offended at the sermon , not blessed ones in his conceit i trow . if the law of moses could not make men perfect as pertaining to the conscience , much l●sse c●n any new laws invented now , and if any such laws should be imposed on the people of god now , the gospell hath the same strength in it self to make h●m void as the former . reader , observe that scripture phrase used by mr. dell , heb. 9.13 , 14. not to make perfect as appertaining to conscience , is thus interpreted by exposit●rs , that the jews could not obtain righteousnesse , justification or taking away the guilt of sin from their consciences , by any , or all of their leviticall ceremonies or sacrifices , but all the spirituall good they injoyed , was from christ the true sacrifice . now observe , mr. dell makes it the reason why the law of moses was to be abolisht , because it could not make perfect , as pertaining to conscience , as he layes it down p. 3. l. 7. now by this reason the morall law should bee abolisht as well as the ceremoniall ; for the morall law and our obedience to it , cannot make us perfect as pertaining to conscience , i. e. cannot justifie us in the sight of god , nor wipe off the guilt of sin from off the conscience ; so that it should seem he pleads against the morall l●w to have it abolisht as well as the ceremoniall , so shews himself to be a grosse antinomian , as well as a rigid anti-presbyterian . all such laws and ordinances devised by men that cannot make them that obey and practice them perfect , as appertaining to conscience , are therefore all to be at an end when this time of reformation comes . if all laws and ordinances devised by men that cannot make them that obey them and practise them perfect , as pertaining to conscience , are to end in this time of reformation , then will it follow , al● our stature laws , and our ordinances of parliament ; are to bee abolisht , for they are devised by men , and cannot make perfect as pertaining to conscience ; but if he say that he meanes such laws and ordinances of men , whereby the civill magistrate gives his civill sanction , to confirm and establish certain laws and constitutions for externall conformity , in outward duties of outward worship and government , as he speakes more plainly in p. 5. l. 26. if he meane that such laws and ordinances as these are to be abolisht , i demand whether this reflects not on the wisedome and honour of both the honorable houses of parliament , who have made certain laws and ordinances about church-government , and confirmed them by their civill sanction , yet these must be abolisht ; but 't is not to be doubted but that the honourable houses have shewed more wisdom and judgment in ratifying those ordinances , then mr. dell can shew strength of argument to abolish them . but i proceed , mr. dell afterward declaring that the time of the gospel , was the time of this reformation ( which were the words of his doctrine ) hath this passage . in the time of the law there were outward duties , and performances , and ceremonies , and sacrifices , and strict laws to injoyn the observation of these things , carrying along with them the severitie of death , yet notwithstanding all this , there was no true reformation . then he goes on , p. 4. l. 6. notwithstanding their strict forcing of men to outward duties , and notwithstanding the outward worship of moses , the people remained inwardly corrupt , filthy , and unclean , and without any true reformation before god , till christ , who was god in the fl●sh , came with the ministration of the spirit , and then indeed was the time of reformation . certainely the man seems to be a little angry , with the directions and lawes of god given to moses ; and if he had lived in moses his time , i doe verily thinke he would have pleaded for liberty of conscience , and exemption from them : he charges the lawes of moses with severity , pag. 3. lin. 35. and that then there was strict forcing of men to the duties of the outward worship of god , pag. 4. lin. 4. which he likes not , neither then nor now ; if hee blame any , it will reflect on the lawgiver , god himselfe , who prescribed those lawes to moses . but what hath master dell to alleadge against the compelling of men to the duties of the outward worship of god ? i am sure there is much to be said for it , this iehosophat , hezekiah , asa , and iosiah did , els magistrates are to behold men as indifferent spectator● ▪ not caring what religion the people be of ; in speaking of the magistrates coactive power , i would be cautiously understood . 1. tha● the coactive power of a magistrate is not gods way of planting the gospell in a heathen nation which never heard of the gospell before . procopius in arc● . histor. . saith that iustinian was blamed , because hee compelled the samaritans to embrace the christian faith . all the jewes , a nation professing the true god , were compelled to the duties of the outward worship of god ; but the heathens about them were not so . 2. you must know that there is a great deale of difference twixt an affirmative compulsion , to say i le make you bee of my minde ; and a negative compulsion , which saith you shall not spread , propagate this heresie and blasphemy ; thus the magistrate may compell . 3. the magistrate may compell to the meanes and externall acts of worship , but cannot compell to internall acts of faith , love , and such like , as having no power over the conscience . i shall have occasion to treate of the magistrates power more largely , upon some other passages of master dels sermon . but master dell goes on and saies , that during the time of moses his law , there was no true reformation , pag. 3.33 . and that the people were without any true reformation before god , till christ who was god in the flesh come . page . 4.8 . by this mr. dell discovers himselfe a downe-right socinian , hee saith there was no true reformation , the socinians sa● so too in effect ; that they who lived before christs time , had onely temporall and earthly blessings in their knowledge and affections ; holding resolutely that christ and eternall things , though they were promised in the old testament , yet they were not enjoyed by any till under the new ; whereupon they say , that grace and salvation was not till christ came , as if there had beene no eternall life , nor any thing of the spirit till christ came in the flesh : and doth not mr. dell say so much in effect ; when he saith , til this time of reformation , the faithfull were without true reformation before god ? what a heavy charge is this , that all the patriarks before the law , and all the elect of god under the law , were without this true reformation before god ? what is this but to deny that they are not justified , their sins not pardoned , their soules not saved ? for this is a certain truth , that none are justified , pardoned , or saved , but such as have this go●spell reformation , which he describes to a bee mortifying and destroying of sinne , if there was no such a reformation as this , how could any before christs coming in the flesh be sav●d ? master dell having described what this gospell reformation is , to be a mortifying and destroying of sin , &c. he now layes down an exclusive conclusion in these words this is true gospell reformation , and besides this i know no other ; but as he preacht it was thus ; this is true gospell reformation , and besides this the new testament knowes no other . he sayes it in expresse termes also , pag. 12. l. 22. the taking away of transgression for us and from us , is the onely reformation of the new testament . if it bee read as t is printed , that master del● knowes no other gospell reformation besides heart reformation , this bewrayes his ignorance , if it be read as t was preacht , that the new testament knowes no other reformation besides this , herein he shewes his errour , to bee for the erastian way . i must needs say , our dissenting brethren who are of the independent judgement have little reason to thank master dell for this assertion ; it strikes at the foundation of the independent reformation and government as well as at the presbyteriall . besides , if no reformation besides an heart reformation , surely it will follow that both kingdomes were greatly mistaken in the first article of our covenant , wherein wee stand bound to endeavour the reformation of religion in the kingdomes of england and ireland in doctrine , worship , discipline and government , according to the word of god , and the example of the best reformed churches . surely both kingdomes did not take this upon them , as if they could reforme the hearts of men , ( this they know is christ work , not theirs ) but another kinde of reformation in ecclesiasticall discipline , which hath been corrupted by the prelates : so that if mr. dels doctrine passe for currant that there is no other reformation under the gospell but a heart reformation , the first article of the covenant must stand either for a nullity or falsity . and therefore you see how grosly they are mistaken , who take gospell reformation ( onely to consist in the making , so t was preacht ) to bee the making of certaine lawes and constitutions by the sacred power or clergy , for externall conformity in outward duties of outward worship and government , and to have these confirmed by civill sanction , and inforced upon men by secular power . master dell himselfe , and others of his minde , not any body else that i know of , are mistaken ; for none of a presbyterian judgement holds that the making of certaine lawes for conformity in dutyes of outward worship backed by the civill sanction of the christian magistrate to be heart-reformation : but they say onely this , that a visible church is then in a good readinesse for reformation , when there is an externall conformity in duties of outward worship and government , when confirmed by civill sanction : indeed master dell saies much , but d●oves nothing about this . and to rectifie master dels mistake , i shall endeavour to prove that t is so farre from being a capitall crime , that it ●s a laudable and warrantable practice in the civill magistrate , to con●●rme by civill sanction , and enjoyne by externall penalties , externall conformity in outward duties of outward worship and government , which i shall evince by scripture and reason . 1. by scripture , did not darius make a law for externall conformity in matters of religion ? dan. 6.26 , 27. i make a decree , that in every dominion of my kingdome men tremble and feare before the god of daniell . nehemiah made a law , and that under penalty , to bring men in conformity to the observing and sanctifying of the sabbath , nehem. 13.21 , 22. yea , josiah made all that were present in judah and benjamin to stand to the covenant ; and made all that were present in israell to serve , even to serve the lord their god , 2 chron. 34.32 , 33. and king as● made a law , commanding iudah to seeke the lord god of their fathers , and to do the law and commandements , 2 chron. 14.4 . many instances more of the like nature might be brought . the reasons which evince the warrantablenesse of magistrates practice , to enjoyne externall conformity in outward dutyes of outward worship and government , and to confirme these by civill sanction , i shall lay down briefly . 1. because the magistrate is ordained by god , not onely to be a practicer of the law himselfe , but to be a protector thereof , and to punish the breach thereof in others , this not onely the presbyterians , but master burton the vindicator of the independent churches saith , a mans practises , if they bee against any of gods commands of the first or second table , it appertaines to the civill magistrate to punish , who is for that cause called custos utriusque tabulae the keeper of both tables : these bee his very words . now if a magistrate may protect the law , and punish the open breach of the law of the first table as well as the second , what should hinder but hee may enjoyne externall conformity to the law i know not . 2. reason , else a magistrate in a common-wealth should behold men as an indifferent spectator , not caring what religion they be of , whether papish , pagans , arrians , socinians , &c. unlesse he hath a power to enjoyn external conformity , in outward worship . 3. reason , else the holy princes and rulers , as asa , iehosaphat , hezekiah , iosiah , with others who are recorded to be zealous in enjoyning outward conformity ( and that under a penalty ) in outward worship , should lye under blame for thus doing , as doing a worke not belonging to them ; if mr. dels assertion were true , that secular power cannot enjoyne outward conformity in dutyes of outward worship . but observe good reader , how mr. dell doth endeavour to hinder the magistrate to countenance and confirm by law ( or civill sanction as he cals it ) the worship and government of christ , and externall conformity thereto , by this following passage . after this manner the old prelates reformed , who were wont to say in the kings , wee will study out the faith , and you shall maintain it ; and the faith they studied and brought to the kings , the kings must maintain and * not question but that it was jure divino . prithee reader observe master dels reasoning in this place is neither logicall nor theologicall ; this is the force of what he writes . the prelates desired their government to bee confirmed by kings to be iure divino ; therefore the assembly ( for i know not else who he should meane by that tearme which hee useth ironically , the sacred clergy ) who desire the parliament to settle their moddell of church government and confirme it by civill sanction , is not iure divino . if prelaes intreated princes to confirme by civill sanction , what was not jure divino , shall the assembly not petition the parliament to confirme what is ? but the more to cast dirt on that ecclesiasticall reformation , which the presbyterians desire of the parliament to settle , he doth reproach it with this scandall ; that after this manner the old prelates reformed , p. 5. l. 33. now observe how unjustly this is charged upon them , for , 1. the prelates desired the secular power to enjoyn conformity to boundlesse , groundlesse , burdensome , and superstitious ceremonies ; the presbyterians desired the removall of them all ▪ 2. the prelates desired the king to injoyn a law to prophane the sabbath ; the presbyterians desire lawes to bee still in force to have it sanctified . 3. the prelates ( saith master dell ) brought the faith they studied to the king● and kings must maintaine it , and not question it , but that it was jure divino ; but the presbyterians say not so , they acknowledge that it belongs to the magistrate to have his conscience satisfyed in the truth of that government of the church , which he will set up by his authoritie . 4. the prelats desired the civill magistrates to inflict heavier punishments , fo● not observing a fruitlesse ceremony , then for grosse sins in practice , or errours in judgement ; but the presbyterians doe not so . 5. the prelates had costly courts to picke the purse , and crush the person of him that came under their clutches ; the presbyterians desire none such . yea , 6. the prelates desired princes to settle a government , which had no footing in the word ; the presbyterians desire such a government settled , as may be most agreeable to the word of god , and the example of the best reformed churches : put these 6 particulars together , then doe but judge whether master dell spake true , that the prelat● of old , reformed after the same manner as the presbyterians labour for now . mr. dell having laid down some differences twixt heart-reformation , and ecclesiasticall-reformation , he hath this passage . civill ecclesiasticall reformation is onely outward and busieth it selfe in reforming the outward man in outward things , and is very industrious and elaborate about outward formes , and outward orders , and outward government , and outward confession , and outward practice , and thinkes if these be but put into some handsomenesse and conformity , they have brought about an excellent reformation , though the heart remain sinfull , &c. and so this reformation is like that reformation of the scribes and pharisees , notorious hypocrites ; who made cleane the outside of the cup or platter , leaving them all filthy-and unclean within . 1. in these words observe he runs into 4 mistakes . 1. he joynes civill and ecclesiasticall-reformation together , as if one and the same , whereas they are clearly distinct : as 1 there are distinct officers , secular rulers in one ; pastors , and teachers in the other . 2. there are distinct censures ; the one may abridge of liberty and life , the other only excommunicate from a church societie , but cannot inflict any bodily censure . 3. distinct in their ends ; church-reformation onely ayming at the gaining of our brother to god , and preserving the church from infection and offence : state-reformation reaching onely to the outward practice , ayming at the outward peace ; now though they be thus distinct , yet he jumbles them together , as if one and the same . 2. he condemnes ecclesiasticall-reformation , because it busieth it selfe in reforming the outward man , when it cannot reform the heart whereas this is rather a commendation to our government , that it can doe so much ( as by master dells owne confession , to reform the outward man ) then a discommendation to it , that it can doe no more . 3. take notice he is not onely an enemy to our government , but to the confession of faith , brought in by the revernd assembly to the parliament ; and to shew how he distastes it , he thinkes not one place enough in his sermon to manifest his dislike ; wherefore i observe hee hath 3 loose flings at the confession of faith , as in page 7. l. 16. and page 23. l. 28. and here in this place of which i am mentioning , pag. 7. l. 5. 4. he makes tha● reformation which the godly presbyterian ministers and people desire , to be no better then the reformation of the scribes and pharisees , notorious hypocrites ; though my conscience bears me witnesse , and his also could testifie , would hee become a judge of righteous thoughts , that they of a presbyterian judgement rest not in outward formes and professions , as the scribes and pharisees did ; but presse an inward change as well as an outward conformity : urge men to get into christ as well as into a church ; and entreate men to endeavour heart-reformation , as well as church-reformation : how unjust then is master dells uncharitable charge against that church-reformation which is laboured for ? reader , i thought fit to let thee know , that in page 7. l. 20. he hath added an objection & answer which he did not preach ; i am only ingaged to answer what he preacht , though the answer to the objection in the latter part is unsound , yet i shall passe it over with silence . i appeale to all that are spirituall , what heart or nature was ever changed by this sort of reformation ; so t is printed , but 't was preacht otherwise , in these words . i appeale to you all , and to all the kingdome , and to all the world , what heart was ever changed by this sort of reformation . t were well it could be found what the mystery is , that now mr. dell printing his sermon should appeale to them that are spirituall ; but when he preacht it , would not vouchsafe the parliament such an expression , but onely say i appeale to you all ; truely a man indifferent on both sides would give this reason ; as if master dell thought the parliament were not spirituall , but carnall and weake , and not competent judges of the matter , but in his appeale to the people would call them spirituall , as if there were among them more discerning judges . and truely there is a phrase in his reply , pag. 42. lin. 7. that strengthens me in this thought , as if this were his opinion ; for he tearmes them to be but the world that thinkes ill of his sermon : so that if the parliament should thinke ill of his sermon , they should lye under the same condemnation to be but the world ; and so not spirituall in his esteem . but let us looke what a braggadocian he is , in making his appeale , as if all the world were not able to controll him ; as if goliah-like none durst venture to encounter with him , or gaine-say what he affirmes . that which he appeales to all , is this , whether by an ecclesiasticall-reformation any heart or nature was ever changed , if hee would hearken to augustine , he saith quod perplurimi conversi suo tempore fuerunt ob metum paenae . hee affirmes that many of the donatists were converted , for feare of ecclesiasticall censures , and civill punishments from the secular powers . and sibellius on ( iude v. 23. ) these words , others save with feare pulling them out of the fire , expounds them of church-discipline , that the church should throw out and excommunicate obstinate and notorious sinners ; which should so terrify and affright their consciences , that it should be a meanes to saves their soules ; and paul saith that the end of ecclesiasticall-discipline is , that the soule might be saved in the day of the lord iesus , 1 cor. 5.5 . yea , though god might not give such frequent testimonies of conversion by ecclesiasticall-reformation , yet very often i finde the usefulnesse of it , in a way of conviction , 2 thes. 3.14 . when the discipline of the church was so strict that the members thereof kept not company with a scandalous sinner , this was the way to make him ashamed . so hymeneus and alexander being excommunicated , it was for this end , that they might learn not to blaspheme , 1 tim. 1.20 . mr. dell then in his appeale to all the world may finde some who were in the world , who held that god may so blesse ecclesiasticall reformation that some have beene converted , many convinced by it . mr. dell having by five differences distinguisht heart-reformation from ecclesiasticall reformation ; thinks that by casting a lustre on the former ( which indeed it deserves ▪ ) hee doth blemish the latter , but yet if severall passages in his sermon bee well weighed , instead of casting a reproach on ecclesiasticall reformation , god made the mouth of an adversary to a regular government speak what it never meant , and a commendation thereof to bee in his expressions , though farre besides his intentions ; so that instead of giving it a wound , he hath given it a plaister , and done much like that inraged man that plutarch speakes of , who bearing a grudge against prometheus the thessalian , meeting him , drew his sword , thrust him into the body , thought thereby to kill him , but it was so ordered by a divine hand , that the thrust of the sword was into his imposthume , by which the corruption was let out , his life saved , and his imposthume cured , which by all the care of friends , and skill of physicians could not be cured before : as god made caiphas prophecy truth concerning jesus christ , whom he neither knew nor reverenced , even so hath the lord made mr. dell speak well of that government which he neither understands nor loves , for observe what hee writes of ecclesiasticall reformation , that it busieth it selfe in reforming the outward man , serm. p. 7. l. 2. that it reaches to the body and orders that , yet a●taines not to the soule , p. ● . l. 35. that it reformes outward and grosse sinnes . p. 8. l. 14. that it brings men to outward order and conformity , p. 9. l. ult. now truely mee thinks this is a tolerable commendation of our church-reformation , that it can doe so much ( by mr. dells owne confession ) and no ground for the discommendation of it that it can doe no more , but leaves heart-reformation for jesus christ , whose work it is . master dell proceeds to make use of the lords speech to david , 1 kings 18.8 . whereas it was in thy heart to build mee a house to my name , thou didst well , it was in thy heart , neverthelesse thou shalt not build mee a house , but thy sonne shall , &c. and elsewhere the reason is rendred , because thou hast been a man of war●e , and hast shed blood . i have nothing to say against the scripture quoted ; i beleeve it to be unquestionably true ( though mr. dell was pleased to accuse mee , as if this scripture could not be quiet for me ) yet i have something to say against his sense of this scripture ; and his absurd application thereof . as i apprehend mr. dels sense of that text , he carryes it thus farre ; that it would bee absolutely evill in david to build the temple , because hee had had warres and had shed blood ; indeed this is the papists reason , from whence they argue ( as peter martyr well observes on the booke of samuel ) that clergy-men must not be in armes , must not be warlike men , and if this reason should hold good , it would be unlawfull for mr. dell , being a minister , to be a chaplain in the army ; now this could not bee the reason simply why david should not build the temple , because he had shed blood ; for this should then have hindered solomon from building the temple , for solomon had shed blood , had a hand in killing ioab and his brother adonijah also . the true reason why david should not build god a house , was this : because david had not leisure nor opportunity in regard of continuall wars , to set about the work , therefore god indulged him ; the lord considering that during davids seven yeares and a halfes reigne over judah , there was a continuall war between the house of saul and david , then after hee was king of israel , hee had wars with the iebusites in jerusalem , afterwards fought twice with the philistines , and still set upon by daily assaults ; it was inconvenient for him to build the temple , considering also that there was to bee above sevenscore thousand men to bee imployed about the building of the temple , which david could not conveniently spare from the warre during his reigne , this then was the onely reason why god dispensed with david , that hee should not build the temple ; not as if it had been evill in him to undertake it , but inconvenient for him , because he had not leisure or time to undertake so long and great a work . i have something likewise to say against his absurd application of that text in 1 king. 8.18 . he applies it thus to the parliament . so i say to you touching this work of reformation , you did well that it was in your hearts to reforme the kingdome of god , and the spirituall church which is christs dear bodie , neverthelesse you shall not reform it , for you have been men of war , and have shed much blood , but christ the prince of peace , he shall reforme the church of god : when you understand the reformation of the church to be as great as the work of redemption , you will acknowledge the work is too great for you. reader observe , there are no lesse than six absurdities in his application of the text , 1 kings 8.18 . to the parliament . first , he takes it for granted , that it was in the parliaments heart , as if they should undertake this work of heart reformation ; which doubtlesse was never in the thoughts of their heart , they well know and beleeve it is christs work and not theirs to reforme the heart . secondly , he takes for granted , that this was a good thought in the parliament to undertake the work of reformation in men ; whereas , if this thought had been in any of their hearts , ( which i beleeve never was ) it had been an impious and unwarrantable thought ; to think to doe that work , which belongs onely to jesus christ . as 't is a bad thoug●t in the pope to conceive he can give pardons for sin ; 't is as bad in any , if he should think hee can give grace to sinners . thirdly , he takes it for granted that the intention in the parliament to reforme was good , but the execution of that intention was evill : wherea● , certainly , if the action or the execution of a thought b● evill ▪ the intention to that action must be evill also ; if to act murther , adultery , theft , be evill , to intend to act any of these must be evill likewise ; so , if the parliament should make it their work to reforme mens hearts , and that be evill , then undoubtedly the thought and intendment of this work , must be evill also ; which may evince mr. dell , of a third absurdity , in holding that intention in the parliament to be good , and the execution of this evill . fourthly , he makes it the ground or reason why the parliament shall not make it their work to reforme the spirituall church ( as he calls it ) i. e. why they shall not undertake to reform mens hearts , because they have been men of warre , and have shed much blood ; so that belike , if the parliament had not been a warlike parliament , then it had been their work to undertake to reforme the hearts of men ; but they having shed much blood , must not now meddle with the reformation of the church ; well argued mr. dell. fifthly , by this manner of arguing , because the parliament have been men of warre , and have shed blood , and therefore cannot reforme the church ; if this reason stood in force as the impediment , then jesus christ himselfe should not undertake this work of reformation ( which would bee blasphemy to conceive ) for christ is a man of warre , and is said to have his vesture dipt in the blood of his enemies , which brightman expounds to bee the turk in the east , the beast , and the false prophet in the west . now all warres against turk and pope , are christs warres , done by his authority and approbation ; so likewise the warre which the parliament hath undertaken may be said to be rather christs warre then theirs , his cause , his people , his truth , his glory being concerned therein . now this reason would exclude christ ( which god forbid ) as well as any other , from setting about church-reformation . sixthly , hee layes a blemish on the honourable house of commons , as if they did not yet understand the reformation of the church ; and as if they did not yet acknowledge , that to reform mens hearts is too hard a work for them ; i beseech you observe whether his words bring him not into this absurdity . his words are th●se , pag. 14. l. 13. you did well that you thought to reform the church , but when you understand the reformation of the church , is as great a work as the redemption of it , you will acknowledge the work is too great for you. doe not these words plainly intimate , as if the parliament did not yet understand the reformation of the hearts of men to be as great as the work of redemption , and as if they did not yet acknowledge this work of reformation to bee too hard for them ; oh the impudence of the man that should cast such a shamelesse aspersion on so grave and judicious a councel , so intelligent and profound in matters spirituall and civill . christ sent his disciples not forth with any power of swords , or guns , or prisons to reforme the world , or with any power of states or armies , but sent forth poore illiterate and mechanick men , and onely armed them with the power of the word , and behold what wonders they wrought by that power alone ! 1. presbyterians ( as well as mr. dell ) grant that fire and sword , prisons , and the co-active power of the magistrate by inflicting corporall punishments , is not gods way of planting the gospel in a heathen nation which never heard of the gospel before : all protestant authors acknowledge that it is the word , not the sword that must propagate the gospel ; let the pope , spaniard , mahomet , propagate religion by the sword ; i know none of a presbyterian judgment that pleads for that . 2. those of a presbyterian way do utterly renounce this practise ; acknowledging the power of church-reformation extends not so farre as to reach to estate , liberty , or life , the censures of the church are onely spirituall , such censures that reach to estate , liberty , or life , are committed onely to the magistrates hand ; wherefore mr. dell is to blame here tacitly to suggest , as if some would have swords , guns , and prisons to be the churches weapons , and instruments ; and what hee doth but privately hint at , here he doth openly declare elswhere , as if some in this age preacht that the government of the church , which hath power over mens estates , bodies and lives , belongs not to king nor parliament , but to the ministers and their elders : some indeed may preach it , as mr. dell hath written it , upon hear-say , and so charge that on the presbyterians what they never meant ; unlesse he names the men , and proves the words , i shall not beleeve that any of a presbyterian judgement should preach thus : read over all the presbyterian authors about ecclesiasticall discipline , they unanimously renounce that the government of the church reaches to mens estates , liberty and lives , but that censures in those regards belong to the secular powers . 3. that because christ sent out his disciples without power of swords , states , or armies , to propagate the gospel ; it will not therefore follow , that states should not employ their outward power to preserve the gospel in safety from open enemies without the church , and in truth from perverting heretiques within the church , which is all that presbyterians desire that magistrates should doe . reader , take notice that mr. dell in handling the third generall , which was , by what meanes christ brought about this reformation ; he gives an orthodox answer , that 't is brought about by the word and spirit , serm. p. 14. but yet in the explicating and amplifying of these two meanes , hee hath very harsh and unsavoury passages against the morall law , which makes mee suspect him to be tainted with the antinomian errour . i 'll gather up his own words scattered up and downe his booke , as in pag. 17. lin. 23. hee saith , the word by which the church is reformed is not the word of the law , for the law made nothing perfect , but the word of the gospel , this , this is the onely-word that workes reformation , by which it seemes to mee hee excludes the law from being any way instrumentall for the converting and reforming of a sinner . then observe further in pag. 18. lin. 5. hee saith to the same effect , that the word whereby christ reformes , is not the word without us , as the word of the law is , but the word within us . then in pag. 19. lin. 3. hee saith , that the word of the gospel is the onely reforming word , and if there bee never so much preaching , if it bee but legall , it will reforme no body aright : now what he meanes by legall preaching , i cannot tell ; for my part i account that onely to bee legall preathing , either to cry up the observation of the ceremoniall law , or to preach justification by the workes of the morall law ; besides this , i know not what is legall preaching : surely mr. dell hath not such cause to taxe the godly ministers of this kingdome to be legall preachers , for who goes about to set up the ceremoniall law for the observation thereof , or the morall law to get justification thereby ? i know none : but if mr. dell meanes , that to preach the duties of the morall law , or the matter contained in the law , ( which to mee seemes to bee his sense ) that this cannot bee instrumentall to reforme the heart ; in this i am against him , and the scriptures also gain-say him touching this matter ; when the levites read the law , and expounded it , the people wept very sore , nehem. 8.8 , 9. a good evidence of the reformation of some among them ; besides the preaching of the prophets was but an expatiating and explicating the duties commanded in the law of moses , and shall we imagine that none were reformed by that way of preaching ? besides , to what end doth christ himselfe expound and presse the law , mat. 5. and the apostles after him urge the duties of the law , eph. 6.1 , 2. iames 2.8.10 , 11. if preaching the duties of the morall law , or the matter contained in it , could be no wayes instrumentall to reforme the hearts of men ? i have herein beene too large . i shall onely mention one unsavoury passage more about the law , then proceed to what else may be justly excepted against , 't is in page 19. lin. 14. in the law there was letter without the spirit , and so that could doe nothing , but in the gospell the word and the spirit are alwayes joyned together . here hee falls into the socinian error againe , as if the spirit did not accompany the ministery of moses , as if there was in the law onely the letter without the spirit , whereas indeed the efficacy of the spirit was as really operative then as now , though not so abundantly . doth not the scripture assure us that the spirit did accompany the ministery of the prophets , and did not christ by his spirit preach unto the old world in the ministery of noah ? how then dares master dell affirme that in the law there was letter without the spirit ? but then observe he runs into another error , that in the gospell the word and spirit are alwayes joyned . if this were true , then certainly none could perish that heare the gospel , which would be neare of kin to origens opinion , that all shall bee saved ; yea by this t is manifest that in the gospel the word and spirit are not alwayes joyned together , in that the gospel becomes a blocke of offence to some , and a savour of death unto death , 2 cor. 2.16 . which could not be if in the gospel the word and spirit were alwayes joyned together . object . yea but i hope you will allow secular power too , may not the spirituall church of christ bee reformed with worldly and secular power ? i answer , by no meanes , and that for these causes . so it is printed , but it was preacht thus ; i answer by no meanes , and what i say i shall make good out of the gospel , if it offend any , wee cannot helpe that the word of god should bee a stone of stumbling and rocke of offence . all these words are left out in the printed copy ; and what should be the reason thereof ? oh that the omission of these words did arise from a suspicion of the invalidity and impertinency of his proofes for what he intends : if this did abate his confidence in the presse from what it was in the pulpit , i should in time hope that he would with augustine write a booke of retractations , and reclaime his dangerous opinions ; i am not in despaire as touching this , for hee hath turned from episcopacy to independency , and now for anarchy ; and who knows whether he may not turne for presbytery in the end , which is my earnest desire to god for him , since i heard and read what opinions he holds . there is one thing more i might inquire into , what reason mr. dell had to use those words as a prologue to what hee was to say , if it offend any we cannot helpe that the word of god should be a stone of stumbling and rocke of offence . if hee intended onely that magistrates cannot reforme the heart , that is christs worke alone ; i doe not thinke there was one in the congregation that would bee , or could bee offended at that ; wherefore it made me thinke when hee used those words , that something either erroneous ( as indeed it was ) or controversall would fall from him , else there had beene no need of such a preamble as that was . i will now addresse my selfe to view over those causes or reasons he gives , why he will by no meanes grant the spirituall church of christ , to be reformed by worldly and secular power , which if hee meanes in this sense that secular powers cannot reforme the heart , hee might well spare his paines in alleadging reasons ; all the congregation was fully satisfied in that without further reasons ; but certainly something else these causes hee laies downe were intended for , to plead for some such thing as this , that because the magistrate cannot reforme the heart , therefore hee must not put to his hand to represse the divulging of hereticall opinions ; nor punish those persons that doe : i cannot discerne at what marke hee should aime at but this . i now come to consider of the causes or reasons as he layes them downe . his first reason : forcible reformation is unbeseeming the gospel , for the gospel is a gospel of peace not of force and fury ; civill ecclesiasticall reformation reformes by breathing out threatnings , punishments , prisons , fire and death . to strengthen this ; he quotes many authors , in page 21. observe 1. if by forcible reformation he meanes that a christian magistrate should not force by fire and sword , an heathen people to embrace the faith , i shall not contend with him ; but if he meanes that magistrates must not among people professing the faith , put forth their power to suppresse heresies , and punish the divulgers thereof , this is not unbeseeming the gospel , but most consonant unto it . for did not paul in the want of a christian magistrate in an extraordinary way doe the magistrates worke , inflict a bodily punishment on elymas the sorcerer , struck him blinde , onely because hee would have seduced paulus sergius from the faith ? acts 13.8 , 9 , 10 , 11. now what paul did extraordinarily , the christian magistrate may doe ordinarily as an ordinary act of his charge . there are a cloud of witnesses that affirme this , that it is the magistrates duty to suppesse errors , and punish the spreaders thereof . zanchy saith , that almost all divines in his time were of this minde , that hereticks were to bee punisht with the sword . so is beza likewise who saith , docemus christianis magistratibus praecipue dandam operam , ut purus ac sincerus dei cultus vigeat ejusque perturbatores ut res postvlat , authoritate sua legitime juadicatos , capitali quoque paena si necessitas et sceleris magnitudo postulent , coerceant potius , quam ecclesia detrimentum capiat . the christian magistrate ( saith beza ) should use his endeavour , that the pure & sincere worship of god might flourish , and that he should restraine and punish , and that with a capitall punishment , if need so require , all the disturbers thereof , rather then the church should receive any dammage . of the same minde is bullinger , conc. 18. fol. 89. and aretius in historia valentini gentilis . danaeus in ethic. christi , lib. 2. c. 13. fol. 199. so iunius in defensione , 2. de trinitate adversus samosatenianos edita heidelb . ann. 1591. p. 40. now lest it might invalidate what these orthodox divines assert as being of a presbyterian judgement ; i shall here insert what some of the independent way doe hold , touching the magistrates power , in suppressing heresies and punishing the promoters thereof . mr. iohn goodwin in a booke , intituled m. s. to a. s. pag. 50. saith that if the magistrate avoid this danger , that hee smite not the truth of god instead of heresie , and the worship of god instead of superstition , he professeth , that for his part when the civill magistrate shall bee far enough out of this danger of fighting against god ( in opposing truth instead of heresie ) hee hath nothing to say against his fighting with superstion , heresie , schisme , as well as corruptions in manners : hee grants what the presbyterian desire ; so doth mr. burton likewise in his vindication of the independent churches , pag. 70. you must distinguish betwixt mens consciences and their practice , the conscience simply considered is for god , but for mans practises , if they bee against any of gods commands of the first or second table , that appertaines to the civill magistrate to punish , who is for this cause called custos utriusque tabulae , the keeper of both tables . i shall only instance in one more , the glory of their way ; i mean that man of god , mr. burroughs , who quotes that text in deut. 13.6 . that the magistrate must not tolerate , but may inflict death for idolatry ; yea , as hee saith , lest any should put off this , saying this is in the old testament ; he therefore to take this off , doth urge , zach. 13.3 . he that takes upon him to prophecy , to speake lyes in the name of the lord , his father and mother that begat him , shall say unto him , thou shalt not live , and they shall thrust him through when he prophe●●eth . and this text he affirmes to be a prophecy of the times of the gospel ; not as if the paren●s should presently run a knife into him , but that they should bee the meanes that such an erroneous idolatrous prophet , or teacher , should bee brought before the civill magistrate to receive condigne punishment , even to the taking away his life . 2. observe that the many quotations in pag. 21. prove onely that an heathen people must not bee forc't by fire and sword to embrace the faith ; but contradicts not this , that a christian people should not by the christian magistrate , bee punisht for , or restrain'd from the professing of blasphemous opinions , or damnable heresies . 3. observe , 't is an unjust charge on ecclesiasticall reformation , as if that did breath out threatenings , punishments , prisons , death . the church by all its censures can inflict no corporall punishment , 't is the sword in the magistrates hand only must do that ; thus much in answer to the first cause . his second reason he layes downe , is , that forcible reformation is unsuitable to christs kingdome ; which if it bee meant in the sense mentioned in my animadversions on the foregoing reason , 't is no wayes unsuitable to christs kingdome , but is assented to by presbyterians and independents also , as consonant to the word . now under this second cause hee hath this groundlesse assertion , viz. you may as well goe about to bring the angels of heaven , under an outward and secular power , as the faithfull , who being borne of the spirit , are more spirituall then they , serm. p. 22. l. 21. if mr. dells assertion should be beleeved , that the faithfull are more spirituall then angels ; then foure absurdities would follow : 1 civill lawes must have no more to doe with the faithfull , then it hath with angels ; ( who are above the reach of humane laws . ) 2 if more spirituall then angels , then must they have no bodies , as angels have not . 3 if more spirituall then angels , then must they be more free from sin then they are ▪ 4 if more spirituall then angels , then men whiles they live here , should have a greater degree of grace then angels have . considering then that the faithfull here on earth are to bee subject to humane laws , which angels are not , seeing they have bodies which angels have not , and have sinne in their natures , and imperfection in their graces , which the angels of heaven have not , i cannot see reason why mr. dell should say , that the faithfull and elect were more spirituall then angels . his third reason , by ●orcible reformation , humane institution is set up . i shall bee as briefe in my answer , as hee is in this reason ; if humane institution should bee set up by the civill magistrate , ( which is not intended by any ) as a part of gods worship this would bee unjustifiable ; but if humane institutions bee set up ( circa sacra ) onely as a prop to gods worship , by their civill sanction to give protection for the free and publique exercise of the worship of god . against this there can be nothing justly objected . his fourth reason , it brings men into blind obedience . if ecclesiasticall reformation brings men into blinde obedience , this is but an accidentall effect , the fault lies not in the reformation , but in the ignorance of a mans owne minde , or perversnesse of will , that will not know or learne . his fifth reason : it makes men hypocrites , and not saints ; yea , saith afterwards , pag. 24. lin. 13. this reformation makes no saints , but all hypocrites . if church-reformation ( confirmed by the secular power ) makes hypocrites , this is but an accidentall effect as the former was , the fault is not in the reformation , but in the unsoundnesse of mens hearts . this would reflect on the sincere powerfull preaching of the word , as well as the reformation ; for by living under it , many are moulded into a forme of godlinesse , who yet are hypocrites ; shall the word be therefore blamed ? iosiah in that glorious reformation in iudah , caused all iudah to stand to the covenant , 2 chron. ●4 . 32. yet many of those that did so were but meere hypocrites , as they are charged by ieremiah , c. 3.6 , 10. shal therefore the covenant he then prest upon the people be ill thought of ; because many did shew themselves hypocrites after their taking of it ? his sixth reason , hee saith , it causeth disturbances and tumults in the world . in laying downe my answer to this sixth cause . i shall suggest these foure particulars . 1. that this effect is but accidentall , as the two former were : disturbance and tumults doe not arise from any thing in ecclesiasticall reformation , but from the turbulency and violence of mens spirits , who plead for a lawlesse liberty , and are loath to be restrained by the golden reines of discipline . 2. that disturbances and tumults following a reformation , is no grounded argument that that reformation is evill , for then this would condemne jesus christ himselfe , for when hee came from the bosome of his father to reforme his church , 't is said , that hee came not to send peace in the world , but a sword ; for i am come to set a man at variance against his father , and the daughter against her mother , &c. mat. 10.34 , 35. now because these offences and differences doe arise because of christ ; dare any lay the blame on him , as if hee were the cause thereof ? 3. where presbyteriall government is in use protected , and confirmed by the civill magistrate , there is most peace , union , and brotherly love , and least divisions and disturbances ; should i confirme this by quoting any author of a presbyterian judgement , some would not therefore beleeve it ; wherefore that holy man of god , mr. burroughs , though hee bee dead , yet hee speaketh , in a speech of his at guildhall , on friday , october 6. 1643. hee hath these words , that scotland is certainly a nation that god doth love , a nation that god doth honour , it is a nation that is united the most firmely under heaven ; wee may truly call it a phiadelthia , had wee the like union among us , o what great things had wee done before this time : so it should seeme in mr. burroughs opinion presbyterian government was no cause of disturbance● and tumults , but a bond to union : yea , mr. burroughs was not alone of this minde , but the other fou●e apologists , mr. goodwin , mr. nye , mr. bridge , mr. simpson acknowledge , that presbyterian government hath been accompanied with more peace then other formes of government , see the apologeticall narration , p. 4. is not mr. dels charge then unjust , that ecclesiasticall reformation which presbyterians desire to settle , doth breed disturbances and tumults in the world . 4. where errors and heresies spread , are connived at , or tolerated for want of ecclesiasticall reformation , there are likely to be● most disturbances and divisions . this generation can give a sighing testimony hereto . spanhemius in a small tract , or narration of the rise and progresse of the anabaptists in germany , declares that they occasioned many commotions , and the effusion of much blood in those parts of the world ; what the division of the times may doe among us , who knows ? these particulars considered , mr. dell and others of his minde had more ground to lay these brats of disturbances and tumults at their owne doores , that cry downe an ecclesiasticall reformation , and cry up a toleration , then father it upon them who desire unity , truth , and order . his seventh reason , christ useth no such outward force , it was foretold of him , that he should not strivel , nor cry , nor lift up his voyce in the streets , to call in outward and secular aide and power . 't is true , christ used not outward power , and who saith hee should : doe not ( as i have said before ) all presbyterians hold , that the word , not the sword must propagate the faith ; but what then , did not christ call for outward aide from the rulers of the world to preserve the faith ? are wee not enjoyned by christ to pray for kings , that they might protect us in the profession of godlinesse ? are not kings nursing fathers , appointed by christ to take care of his churches safety ? doth not mr. dell say as much , that the magistrate should protect us in godlinesse . it is worth your notice , that hee doth not onely corruptly expound , but impudently adde to the scripture . hee tells you , that it was foretold that christ should neither strive nor cry , nor lift-up his voice in the streets , to call in for outward and secular aide and power . hee quotes not the place where this prophecy is , least the reader should readily turne to it , and so discerne his perverting of the sense , and adding to the words this phrase , to call in for outward and secular aide , which is not in the text ; yet hee would make the world beleeve , as if it was prophesied of christ , hee should neither strive , nor cry , nor lift up his voice in the streets to call in for secular aide ; that holy prophecy ( which hee doth so grosly abuse ) is in isaiah 42.2 . hee shall not cry , nor lift up , nor cause his voyce to bee heard in the streets : which calvin expounds indeed to bee a prophecy of christ , ( but farre from what mr. dell intends ) signifying , that christ comming in the flesh , should bee without pompe and worldly glory , that hee should not bee received as the princes of this world , for when they come through some populous city , they are received in great state , and with loud acclamations from the people . and musculus saith to the same effect also , that christ delighteth not in pompe and vaine glory , as the princes of the world doe , but would live and lead an obscure life in the world . this i onely urge to shew his grosse mi●takes , and ●olly in adding that clause to isaiahs prophecy , which overthrows the prophets intendment in it . as the disciples shooke off the dust of their feet as a witnesse against them that received not their doctrine ; this is all that ministers of the gospel can doe to any that refuse their doctrine , and not goe to the secular magistrate to ask p●wer to punish them , or imprison them , &c. 't is one thing for a man not to receive the word , and another thing to vent blasphemies and errours against the word ; i grant , that ministers must not goe to the secular magistrate to have men punisht who doe not beleeve or receive their doctrine , nor are any punisht for this ; yet ministers must go to the civill magistrate to have heretiques and blasphemers punisht by his hand ; else guilt lyes upon them . now because i perceive the thing which mr. dell drives at , is to deny this , as appeares by a following passage , pag. 25. line 32. avoid an heretique , but not imprison him , or kill him , or banish him : ) i shall therefore make this good , that 't is no such new or unheard of thing , that ministers should call to the civill magistrate to have heretiques punisht ; i may make it evident from the most ancient and generall councell . the nicene councell after they had cast out arius the heretique out of the church of alexandria , made their addresses unto constantine the great that hee might bee punisht : so did the ephesian councell with nestorius that grand heretique , desire theodosius and valeminian to banish him , which was done accordingly . thus did the constantinopolitan councell with that grosse heretique macedonius : and the calcedon councell with the eutichean heretiques ; yea , not onely the generall councells , but the reformed churches they doe the like ; yea , in new-england also the churches did call to the civill magistrate to imprison some , and banish others , who were the broachers of damnable heresies and errours ; and 't is to bee observed , that gerrard who did much differ both from lutherans and calvinists in this controversie about punishing any heretiques with death ; yet hee grants this that i urge . quod magistratus ad fidem christi conversi auxilium contra haereticos orthodoxi implorare possint libenter concedimus , that is , that the orthodox may lawfully beg the power and help of the christian magistrate against heretiques . but it may bee objected , why the apostles and the church in the primitive times did not goe to the civill magistrate to have heretiques punisht ? sol. 't was not as if they thought they might not warrantably goe to the civill magistrate , but 't was because they knew the magistrate was not then christian , nor converted to the faith , so that if they had gone to have him punish others for being heretiques , they had bin punisht themselves for being christians ; this was the true reason of their forbearance ; and yet historians tell us , that the primitive christians did sometimes desire the heathen emperours aide against heretiques ; in particular , the christians petitioned aurelian●● the emperor to punish samosatenus that grosse heretique , which accordingly hee did , vide euseb hist. eccl. lib. 7. c. 29. if men bee wicked , is it not misery enough for them to refuse eternall life , except also they inflict on them a temporall death ? then hee brings in a saying of luthers ; quando non invocat brachium seculare ? et morte u●raque terreat mundum . 1. take notice that mr. dell makes the misery of wicked men , which they may endure hereafter , to bee an argument to exemp● them from all corporall punishments here , as if because it is misery enough to be thrust to hell for murder , treason , theft ; therefore the magistrate must not inflict on them temporall punishment for any of those offences . 2. take notice that the quotation of luthers speech doth not serve his purpose , to prove that magistrates must not punish heretiques ; but luthers speech tends to this , that the popish clergy did call for the secular powers to terrifie protestants under the notion of heretiques , with both kinde of deaths . now is this a good consequence , because the popish clergy did call for the secular powers against protestants , under the notion of heretiques , who were not so ; therefore godly ministers must not desire the secular power against heretiques , who are so ? they that doe these things , shall not inherit the kingdome of god , but not one word of outward and corporall punishment in all the gospel . here still hee harps upon the same string , as if , because a man shall not inherit the kingdome of god , therefore must have no corporall punishment . those that shall not inherit the kingdome of god , are mentioned by the apostle , 1 cor. 6.9 , 10. to bee fornicators , idolaters , adulterers , effeminate , abusers of themselves with mankinde , theeves , covetous , drunkards , revilers , extortioners , and such like , shall not inherit the kingdome of god ; and because of this , by mr. dells assertion , they must be exempted from corporall punishment ; certainly all the libertines in the land would gratifie master dell , could hee but justifie this doctrine . christ reproveth his disciples for discovering such a spirit of tyranny , as to punish men for not receiving him , luke 9. when the apostles of a prelaticall and antichristian spirit in that particular , desired fire to come downe from heaven upon them that would not receive him , christ did severely rebuke them : then afterwards saith , they were of the spirit of satan , and of antichrist , and that this was antichrist triumphant . you need not wonder that master dell should call the reverend assembly the last prop of antichrist , and other godly ministers the toes of antichrist ; hee that cannot affoord the apostles a good word , what can others of inferiour indowments expect from him ? oh what a censorious tongue hath this man , to asperse the apostles for every infirmity , with the foule blot of antichristianity ! 't is true , the desire of the apostles was inconsiderate and vindicative , and shall this mole-hill bee made a mountaine , to bee called in them a spirit of tyranny , a prelaticall and antichristian spirit ? yea , to charge it upon christ , as if hee should say , they were not of his spirit , but of satans , and of antichrists , and this to bee antichrist triumphant . oh what a shamelesse and senselesse aspersion is this ! how could antichrist bee said then to bee triumphant , when the mystery of iniquity did not begin to worke till afterward , nor did antichrist become triumphant till long after the romane emperours relinquisht rome , and gave way to the pope , 2 thess. 2.6 , 7 , 8. which was not till many yeares after the apostles desired fire to come down from heaven ? for my part i shall incline to thinke they to come nearest the apostolicall practise and spirit , at whom master dell casts forth his more bitter invectives . object . may a christian then live as hee list ? ans. no , by no meanes , for he hath the word and spirit in him to keep him from living as he list , and he knows that no man in gods kingdome may live as he wills , but as god wills . 1. observe , though hee saith that man should not live as he list ; yet for any thing the magistrate hath to doe with him , hee may live as he list . 2. he takes it for granted , as if the word and spirit did so keep a man in order , as if that man should not live as it pleaseth himselfe , but in all things please god . 3. he concludes , because men know they may not live as they will , but as god wills ; therefore that they doe live as god wills , which is not true . object . but would you have no law ? ans. no laws in gods kingdom , but gods laws , viz. the law of the new nature , the law of the spirit , and the law of love . all that i shall say touching this , is to desire master dell to looke into his heart , and try whether the law of a new nature , the law of the spirit , and the law of love , did guide him in preaching this sermon , and publishing his epistle : would the law of love make him so censorious of the assembly , to cal them the last prop of antichrist , and to censure other ministers to be but the toes of antichrist ? would the law of love make you asperse the apostles , that they discovered a spirit of tyranny , prelacy , and antichristianity ? truly love would keep you from thinking or speaking evil , but out of the abundance of the heart your mouth spake , it may be discovered what was in the heart , by what was heard from the tongue . object . but would you have sin suffered ? ans. no , but more through●y destroyed then any powers in the world can destroy it , even by the spirit of judgement and burning . it should seeme sinne must bee tolerated ( bee it what it will ) till the spirit comes to subdue it ; till the spirit of judgement comes it must be suffered . i crave leave to speake a few words in the behalfe of two kingdoms . vvhen i heard him begin to crave liberty to speak in the behalf of two kingdomes , i began to listen ; i was in hope he had been turned a scotist , that scotland should have had one good word from him , but when i heard him out the sentence , i perceived they came not into his thoughts ; hee is , i beleeve , as little a friend to their nation , as he is to their government . it grieves me to see how the city , country , country towns , villages , doe all rise up , for the most part , against the ministration of the spirit , for this is a certaine sign of the undoing of them all . vvhen i heard him lash the assembly , all the godly ministers and people of the land who are in the presbyterian way , i did verily imagine london should not escape his censure : i may say to thee , o city of renowne , famous things have been done in thee , and spoken of thee , o thou city of god , thou hast been a little sanctuary to the banisht ones , who were scattered from severall quarters of the land , relieved the needy , hast exhausted thy treasure to save the nation , countenanced and encouraged a godly and powerfull ministery within thy walls , and is this thy requitall , that thou must bee put in the front among those that rise up against the ministration of the spirit ? but you honorable and beloved christians , let not your soule enter into those mens secrets , neither yet walke in their open and publike wayes , for ruine and destruction are in their paths , the way of peace they shall never know , seeing god is to enter into controversie with all flesh , for their rising up against the ministration of the spirit . observe five harsh censures in these words : 1. that the presbyterians ( for i know not whom else hee can meane ) have some secret plots and contrivements , which hee wisheth the parliament to take heed of . this jealousie springs not from a good root ; nero that was unchaste himselfe , thought all men else to bee so , hee guesseth at other mens temper by his owne . 2. he seemes by his words to suggest , as if the parliament should not joyne with presbyterian ministers in that publique way of worship which is established . i know not what else hee should intend by that caution to the parliament , that they should not walke in our open and publike wayes . 3. he censures them of a presbyterian judgment , as if they should ruine and destroy others , or be destroyed themselves , i know not else what hee should meane by that phrase , ruine and destruction are in their paths . 4. that they shall never savingly understand the wayes or means pertaining to their salvation , for so doth hee pronounce , the way of peace they shall never know . 5. that they doe rise up against the ministration of the spirit , if such uncharitable censures proceed from him that pretends he is guided by the law of love , what would hee not say or do when he is swayed by a spirit of revenge ? and thus much unto you from the lord . those few graines of truth which were scattered thinly up and downe the sermon , was from the lord ; but those heapes of chaffe , and that masse of errour which thou seest here discovered , was from some one else : the false prophets when they vented the vanities of their owne hearts , would tell the people , the lord had spoken when hee had not , that their falshoods might bee lesse suspected ; undoubtedly there are many things in this sermon , which god will never own , though it may bee confidently told you , all is from the lord . a short answer to an vnlicensed pamphlet , entituled , a reply to the chiefe contradictions of master love's sermon . master dell , i little thought , that you who pretend so much to bee guided by the law of love , and of the spirit , would have brought forth such fruits of the flesh . the best word you can afford me ( who never spake ill word of you in my life ) is , satan , the old man , the false prophet , &c. well , your words shall provoke me to a diligent search in mine own soul , but not to a turbulent passion against your person , what ever you say of mee shall not exasperate mee to bring a railing accusation against you . the truth is , i am exceedingly unwilling to shew your nakedness to the world , for men to see your shame , and were it not that the truth of god is more concerned then my selfe , i shou●d be silent ; i cannot but say with the philosopher , amicus plato , amicus socrates , sed magis amica v●ritas . before i shal speak to your reply , i cannot but take notice of one passage in the title of your booke , viz. all published for the good of the faithfull at their desire . to which i have three things to say . 1. that your sermon , epistle , and reply tends directly to the hurt of the faithfull , not to their good ; for what tends it to ? but to pervert mens judgements , alienate mens affections from a regular government , and from the orthodox and godly ministers of the land ; and is this for the good of the faithfull ? your booke is stu●ft with selfe-contradictions , scripture-mis-interpretations , censorious expressions , and scandalous aspersions on the city , assembly , and ministry of the land ; and is this for the good of the faithfull ? yea , the publishing your book is likely to sow more seeds of discord , and kindle a greater fire of contention in the kingdome , then you will be able to quench ; and is this for the good of the faithfull ? i cannot but give you notice of one thing from your name del , which in the saxon language signifies division ( from whence our english word deale , to distribute , or divide comes ) and how unhappily doth your practice answer your name , and shew that mr. dell is not onely a dissenting but a dividing brother ; if so ? how can what you publish be for the good of the faithful ? 2 if by faithfull you mean such of your mind and way , that your book was published for their good , i can assure you , you misse your end , you could not doe your party a greater piece of dis-service then in publishing your book , wherein there are such weak ( yet confident ) assertions , such dangerous positions ) such vain-glorious expressions , and rigid censures , which hath made you lose more friends then you have purchased . whereas you say it was published at the desire of the faithfull ; i dare not say they are not faithfull , but i will say in this they were not wise , to desire you to publish that in print which was so much distasted ( by the honourable house of commons ) in the pulpit . i have no more to say to the title of your book ; i now addresse my self to answer your reply : wherein i must tell you that i have not had fair dealing from you , which i shall demonstrate in three particulars . 1. you charge me with that which i never mentioned in my sermon nor ever entred into my heart as if i should say , the reformation of iesus christ which hee works by his word and spirit in all the faithful , and in all the churches of the saints , is no reformation at all : then you demand , how durst you affirme this master love ? see mr. dells reply , page 34. line 10. i may retort upon you , how durst you say this mr. dell ? in what you have laid down for my words not a syllable tending to this purpose , is to be found : such a considerable charge against me would neither have beene left out by your notary , nor forgotten by you , had i spoken such words as those ; it makes me think you cannot confute what i speak , seeing you encounter with that which i spake not , a valiant champion i le assure you . 2. you deale not fairely with mee in this , in that you pervert my words , making them to prove that which was not intended by mee : that you may acknowledge i do not wrong you , i shall give you two instances in your reply , the one is in page 35. line 15. where you indeavour to invalidate that saying of the apostle ▪ ( the rest i will set in order when i come ) for that purpose i intended it ; in your reply you intimate as if i urged it to prove the power of the civill magistrate circa sacra which i did not ; i urged that scripture in confutation of that exclusive assertion you laid down in your sermon , page 5. line 2. this is true gospel reformation , and besides this i know no other , and elsewhere , that this is the onely reformation of the new testament , page 12.22 . you your selfe in writing downe my words cleere it , that i urged those words in answer to that exclusive assertion ; ( as you laid it downe , page 35. line 10 ) if no other reformation besides heart-reformation , then ( said i ) i wonder how paul could be ●o out , who said , when i come i will set all things in order ; whence i argued this must bee church-order , in reference to some reformation of things externally amisse among them ; and not an order about heart-reformation ; for paul , as i urged , could not order who should have grace , who not ; who should not have small measure of grace , who great , this was not in pauls power to order ; wherefore of necessity it must be an ordering of things by ecclesiasticall discipline , of things externally amisse in the church of corinth by their scandalousnesse of life , and unpreparednesse of heart , in comming to the lords supper , or something else about externall order , as the scope of the place ( being the close of pauls directions about comming to sacrament , 2 cor. 11.34 ) and the current of expositers will warrant : (b) calvin saith expresly the apostle meanes onely externall order in matters ecclesiasticall , c so doth pareus on the place , seeing ( saith he ) paul could not in short epistles expresse all things needful about the particular discipline of each of the churches : therefore hee promised when hee came hee would set what is amisse in order . (d) so saith piscator ; the rest i will set in order , that is , saith he , the things pertaining to the order of ecclesiasticall government . this text then is pertinent and prevalent enough to gainsay what you affirme ; viz. that there is no reformation but heart-reformation . the other instance i shall give of your perverting my words , page 39. where you accuse mee that the scripture could not bee quiet for me , as if i did deny that speech 1 kings 8.18 . where god said to david t was well it was in his heart to build but should not . alas , i meddle not with the scripture ; onely with your corrupt and absurd application of this to the honourable house of commons . 3. you deal not fairly with me in inserting what was most easy for you to cavil at ; and omitting the strength of the arguments i urged : and seeing you could not easily unty the knot , you wovld fairly cut it . and thus having shewed wherein you have not dealt ingenously with me , i come now to shew wherein you have dealt injuriously with the truth . i betake my ●elf to answer your reply : & that i might deal fairly with you , i shal lay down ( what you say were ) my own words , and lay down your reply so much as is needful ; then affix an answer . the words of mine , with which you begin , are . love . cast your eyes upon the begun reformation , though peradventure cryed down with confidence , no such thing as the reformation of the church . see reply pag. 33. reply . pag. 34. to which you reply : i taught indeed that the kingdom of christ is a spiritual kingdom , and the reformation of it is answerable ; but little thought that any man would have been so blind or worse , as to have affirmed the preaching of this spiritual and glorious reformation , was to preach against all reformation . is the reformation of jesus christ , which hee works by his word and spirit in all the faithfull , no reformation at all ? how durst you affirm this mr. love ? answ. mr dell to clear himselfe from what i charged him with ( viz. that he c●yed down all ecclesiasticall reformation ) saith , that he little thought any man would be so blind or worse , to affirm that the preaching of this spiritual reformation , was to preach against all reformation . to which i must needs confess , to preach of spirituall reformation , as it should be preacht , is not to preach against all other reformation : but to preach of spirituall reformation , as mr. dell preacht it , viz. exclusively , is to preach against all other reformation . yet mr. dell , to make men beleeve as if he were not against ecclesiasticall reformation , saith , that he thinks him mad or worse , that affirms spirituall reformation excludes all other reformation : truly i am of his mind . now that i might turn the edge of this assertion against mr dell i shall reduce it into this syllogism . major . that man that affirms spirituall reformation , excludes al other reformation , is either blind or worse . minor . but mr. dell affirms spirituall reformation excludes all other reformation . concl. therefore mr. dell is either blind or worse . the major proposition is evident , master del himself confesseth it in the page fore quoted , p. 34. the minor is as evident , viz. that mr dell affirms spirituall reformation , and excludes all other reformation ; for he saith expresly , that besides this spirituall reformation he knows no other , serm. page 5. line 2. and that this spirituall reformation is the onely reformation of the new testament , serm. page 12. l. 22. what then follows , but that m. dell is either blind or worse ? and whereas you lay to my charge in your reply , that i should affirm the reformation of iesus christ by his word and spirit in the faithful is no reformation : truly sir , i never durst hold so , it s farre from my heart , i acknowledg heart-reformation to be the most glorious reformation , yet not the only reformation . i had thought you would have answered what i spake , and not unjustly fasten upon me what i spake not , but i perceive your tongue is your owne . love . as if all were encompassed within the narrow heart of man . reply , yet i said plainly enough when the heart is reformed , all is reformed , and gospel reformation though it begins in the inward man , ends in the outward , did you sir , accuse me rightly then or no ? ans. 't is true , you said so in pag. 6. l. 22. and you said the quite contrary in pag. 5. l. 2. besides heart reformation i know no other ; and pag. 12. l. 22. besides heart reformation , the new testament knows no other . now if what you say in one place , you contradict in another , who can help it ? and whereas you demand whether i accused you rightly , in laying to your charge that you held onely for heart reformation denying all other . i answer , i did , and i stand to the accusation stil , for did not you say , besides heart ▪ reformation , there is no other reformation that you know of ; and that this is the onely reformation of the new testament ; let the reader judge whether i did not then accuse you rightly . love . if this be so , rase out the first article of the covenant . reply . page 37. i had rather the whole covenant were rased out , then the least truth contained in the word of god , though i like the covenant well enough according to the true intention of it . and again , if the thing be truly considered , it will appeare that you are more against the covenant then i , for the covenant engageth us to reform according to the word of god , but you it seems would reform without , yea , against the word , with outward and secular power , which you wil not suffer in t●e magistrates hands neither , but will needs have it in your owne . answ. i have laid down all your words in this reply , that others may discern , and you might bee convinced of the impertinency and falshood thereof ; and that in five particulars . 1. in this reply , you take not off what i urged , viz. if there be onely heart reformation , then must you rase out the first article of the covenant , which binds to a reformation in worship , discipline , and government , which is a reformation distinct from heart reformation ; but against this you speake not a word in this reply , then i 'le conclude that your silence gives consent . 2. you say you like the covenant wel enough according to the true intention of it : truly sir , you must pardon me , i cannot beleeve you ; and that upon these grounds . 1. the covenant , according to the true intention of it , tyes to the preservation of the reformed religion in the church of scotland in doctrine , worship , discipline , and government ; but you like not that : you had rather pull down then preserve the discipline of the church of scotland , it being presbyteriall ; yea ▪ you call that the carnal church that cals for the aide of the civil magistrate for his civil sanction , which scotland doth ; and will you make mee beleeve you would preserve that church or government ? 2. the covenant , according to the true intention of it tyes us to indeavour to bring the churches of god in the three kingdoms , to uniformity in religion , confession of faith , forme of church-government , directory for worship ; but you like not these ; you have in print and pulpit declared your dislike against most , or all of these : how then dare you say you like the covenant wel enough according to the true intention of it ? 3. you do untruly say , that i am more against the covenant then you . in this i hope i shall easily convince you by an induction of particular passages in the covenant . 1. i acknowledge the church of scotland a reformed church , so doe not you . 2. i would in my place ▪ and calling endevour to preserve the reformed religion in the church of scotland , in doctrine , worship , discipline , and government , so will not you . 3. i doe acknowledge the covenant holds ●orth that reformation of church government or discipline , mentioned in the first article , to be a distinct reformation from that mentioned in the end of the covenant , but so do not you ; for you hold that besides heart reformation there is no other . yea , 4. i , according to the covenant , endevour after uniformitie in matters of religion , but you do not so , unlesse your mind bee changed from what it was when you printed a book against uniformity . 5. i am for a confession of faith ; but you had three passages in your sermon against it . 6. i am for a form of church government ; but you not so , your sermon wil testifie against you . 7. i am for a directory for vvorship and catechizing ; you not so . 8. i acknowledge my selfe bound in my place and calling to indevour the extirpation of schism & heresie , as wel as popery or prelacy ; but you do not so . these things considered , with what face can you say , that i am more against the covenant then you ? i hope the ingenuous reader will be a judge of righteous thoughts about this matter betwixt us both . 4. you accuse me , and many others through my weake sides , as if we would reform without and against the vvord ; though the lord knows the purpose of our hearts , that wee desire to make the vvord the rule to square all our services by ; but because you onely say it , but not prove it , 't is not worth a words speaking more . 5. you most falsly accuse me , and others of the presbyterian judgment , that we will not suffer secular power in the magistrates hands , but will needs have it in our own ; we desire none of the magistrates power in our hands , which i have sufficiently spoken to in my animadversions on your sermon . i must needs say you shew not plain and christian dealing , that when you cannot overthrow what presbyterians say or practice , by convincing arguments , you would endevour to doe it by slanderous reports ; this is not fair . mr. love , if this doctrine be true , that gospel reformation is only spirituall , then i wonder how paul was so out , who said , when i come i will set all things in order ? surely this was a church-order . reply , page 35. but pray what outward or secular power had paul ( who suffered not onely much from the world , but most from the false apostles ) to set the church in order ? did paul thinke you use any worldly power to set the church in order , or only the power of the word and spirit ? but these men think if the church he set in order by the word and spirit only ( which were sufficient in pauls time ) it 's likely to be out of order for them . ans. having spoken to this reply before , i may spare my pains now ; yet m●st i let you know that you do me wrong in three particulars . 1. in laying down a part of my words which you thought might best serve your purpose , and leave out the other part of my words , on which the weight of my argument lay , in urging that text , 1 cor. 11.34 . the rest i le set in order when i come : i said this order must be about matters of ecclesiasticall discipline , and not ordering about heart reformation , for paul could not order any thing about this , who should have this reformation , who should not ; who should have grace , who not ; who should have small measures of grace , who great : so pauls words must have reference to externall order in matters ecclesiasticall , as calvin , piscator , and paraeus expounds it . 4. you doe mee wrong in laying downe my words to some other thing then i intended , as if i urged that text to prove the power of the civill magistrate in matters of religion ; which i did not ( other scriptures testifie that sufficiently i need not wrest this ) but onely to prove that the new testament warrants another kind of reformation besides heart-reformation ; consisting in ecclesiastical constitutions for externall order ; which this text affirms . 3. in affirming that i ( with others ) think , if the church b●e set in order by the vvord and spirit , it is like to be out of order for us . i acknowledg the church is then best ordered for us , when ordered by the vvord ; seeing that order allows not such confused disorders , as the want of church discipline would bring in . love . to cry down all kind of government under heart-government , and all reformation as carnall , because you have the civill magistrates hand to it ; is against that place in 1 tim 2 2. pray for kings and all in authority that we may lead a peaceable life in all godlinesse and honesty . reply . well argued now indeed . babes and sucklings you shall come forth and answer this master in israel , the sense of this place is evidently this , that christians should pray for kings and governours , that god would so incline their hearts , that whilst wee live in godlinesse under them , they would suffer us to live in peace , and not make us fare the worse in the world for our interest in the kingdome of god , and what one drop can mr. love squeeze out of this scripture to coole the tip of his tongue ? for the meaning is not that the magistrate should inforce godlinesse , but protect us in godlinesse . an. to this i have 4 things to say , 1. 't is true , you have my sense in the words you laydown for mine , but not my words . i said indeed , to cry down all government and reformation as carnall , because it hath the protection or civill sanction of the magistrate , doth crosse that place , 1 tim. 2.2 . and so i say still ; and in stead of your calling forth your babes and sucklings to answer this ; you your selfe dare not come forth and deny it . 2. you had need call for babes and sucklings to answer this ; some body else had need doe it , for indeed you doe not doe it your self ; nay , you grant as much as i affirme , which i shall declare presently . 3. i cannot but take notice what a charitable allusion you have in comparing me to dives , that i should squeeze a drop to coole the tip of my tongue ; excellent good language for you to have in your mouth , what a damned man in hell spake ( if it bee not a parable ) where the law of love did not beare sway . you that have borrowed this one expression from dives , have borrowed many other expressions from some one else , not farre from him . 4. you grant what i affirme from 1 tim. 2.2 . you say , the magistrate should not inforce godlinesse , but protect godlinesse ; so say i too ; if hee must protect us , how can this bee but by giving his civill sanction to allow us the publike exercise of that religion and government christ hath set up within his dominion ? ●hus instead of denying , you confirm what i said . love . to justle out the magistrates power , is to justle out the first article of the covenant ; and they that justle out that , wil ▪ justle out you shortly . reply . good sir , ascribe not your owne work to our hands , the justling out of the magistrate , have you not made it a chiefe part of your businesse now for a long while together ? and are you not still so diligent●y acting it every day , that now you thinke your worke is in some forwardnesse , and are pretty well able to deale with him ? and now because you would not bee mistrusted your selves , you pu●likely slander us with it ; wee see clearely through all your sl●nder disguises . answ. to return you an answer to this , i have three things to lay down , viz. 1. here you leave out my words , and vary from the sense that i intended them ; indeed i said , that to justle out the magistrates power , as if hee had nothing to doe with matters of reformation , was to justle out them from having any thing to do with the first article of the covenant , no more then any common man in the kingdom . 2. you ungroundedly say , as if i had made it , ( with others ) the chiefe part of our businesse for a long while together , to justle out the magistrate : the lord judge betweene you and us concerning this thing : magistrates never flourisht more , nor were they an● where more secured , then where the presbyteriall government was establisht ; and never was magistracy more sleighted and opposed , then where anabaptists and heretiques prevailed . 3. you say , that we slander you , that wee might not bee mistrusted our selves ; i could wish it were a slander , not a truth ; as for any mistrust that we would avoid , we fear none ; the simplicity of our hearts which we have in christ jesus , bears us up against all mistrusts , though we be slanderously reported . love . ezra was of another mind , ezra . 7.26 . whosoever will not do the law of thy god and the law of the king , let judgement be executed speedily upon him ; whether it be unto death , or unto banishment , or to confiscation of goods , or to imprisonment . reply . well sir , will you stand to this place , and shall this end the controversie ? pray marke then , this was part of the decree of artaxerxes a king of the nations touching the iews , for the rebuilding of the material temple , that they should have liberty to do it , and not be molested in their doing of it ; but should have what assistance the state could afford : the decree was this , ezra 7.13.21 . i make a decree , &c. answ. sir , instead of making a reply to that text , ezra 7.26 . which i quoted , you passe that over with silence , and spend but one line about it , & spend above fifty lines at least in clearing ezra 7.13.21 which i quoted not : whether this be a pertinent reply , let the reader judge . and whereas you vauntingly boast and triumph , as if you had got the day , daring me to stand to this , which i am not ashamed nor afraid to do , maintaining still that this scripture doth warrant , that the civill magistrate hath power to punish with death , banishment or otherwise ( as the evill deserves ) for transgrefling the lawes of god , as well as the kings : and to this purpose mr. burroughs ( with many others ) urgeth this text as well as i , and beza on the place saith , that these heathen princes thought it equall that a capitall punishment should be inflicted on the transgressors of gods law ; and ( saith he ) the spirit of god would have these decrees of heathen princes to be exstant to shame christian princes , if they should not do so now . i now come to view over what you lay down in page 38. to be the force of the place , ezra . 7.26 . 1. you say that the force of the place is that the magistrate may make a decree for all that are minded of their own free will to build the spirituall temple of iesus christ , and to gather up into a communion of saints . to which i have two things to urge , 1. here you speake for the civill sanction of the magistrate in matters of religion , that he make a decree ; but elsewhere you speake against this , as in serm. p. 5. lin. 28. where you expresse your self that the duties of outward worship and government should not be confirmed by civill sanction ; and in page 24. lin. 34. and ult. that christ called not for outward aid of the magistrate ; why then doe you here call in for his aide to make a decree to give you liberty for your selves , when you deny such a thing to us ? 2. the extent of this decree , which you say this place ezra 7.26 . doth in force , that who are minded of their free will to gather into communion of saints , should doe it ; what is this but to say , that this text doth warrant this , that the magistrate should give an universall toleration to any who will call themselves saints to assemble together , and publikely professe their way ; should the magistrate give this scope , that who will may gather into communion ; churches in time would be like that rude multitude ( who yet is called a church as the greeke word signifies ) in ephesus , who raised an uproare against paul ; could you make this place to inforce this , you would put a weapon into the hands of papisticall , prelaticall , anabaptisticall , anarchicall and malignant men , which they never yet used ; to plead for gathering together in communion , as well as you . 2. you say , this is the force of the place , that the magistrate ought to permit this to be d●ne according to the law of god in your hands , or rather the law of the spirit of life in your hearts , and not to inforce upon you any clergy-constitutions , page 28 ▪ answ. 1. this place warrants the magistrate to permit the free and publique exercise of the truth , not of errour ; the magistrate that is enjoyned by god to protect the true religion must not tolerate a false . 2. this place doth rather plead for a clergy-constitution ( as you scoffingly call it ) hen any wayes deny it ; for this decree of artaxerxes was granted upon the request of ezra , who was a priest ( compare ezr. 7.6 . with ez● . 10.10 . ) which place will warrant what you deny in your sermon , viz. that ministers may petition the civill magistrate to have idolaters , heretiques ; or other grosse transgressors of gods law to be punisht with death , banishment , or imprisonment , as the cause shall require ; this decree then of banishment , death , &c. being granted upon the request of ezra a priest , in that sense it may bee somewhat like a clergy-constitution . i shall say more to your third . 3. in the third place you say , that the force of this text is , that the magistrate may deterre me and the rest of the kingdome , that are of the like minde , from resisting and hindering you in gathering into communion , page 38. and a little before you say he may do it upon pain of death and banishment . answ. i am glad you speak out , now i know what you mean , and would you stand to any thing , i should know where to finde you . 1. you grant that the magistrate may deterre mee and others of the like minde , that we hinder not your gathering together in a communion of saints , and that upon pain of death and banishment : by this i see your spirit , that you would have the magistrate deterre , and that by death and banishment , the presbyterians who doe oppose your gathering into communion . oh what jugling hypocrisie is this , one while to cry downe the magistrates power , when presbyterians desire his aid against sectaries and heretiques ; anon to cry it up , that he should deterre upon pain of death or banishment , those of a presbyterian judgement ? presbyterians had neede looke about them , should mr. dells faction prevaile ▪ this is the best they can expect , th●● the magistrate should deterre them , and that with death , or banishment , should they oppose what mr. dell saith is the communion of saints . 2. but suppose i should fight with you with your own weapons , and argue by your owne principles ; presbyterians plead their way to be truth and your way to be wrong , and that they are bound to oppose it , ( and their consciences rest satisfied therein : ) now if they should oppose your way , the magistrate ( by your own principles ) cannot touch them , because they follow their consciences ; how then dare you say the magistrate may deterre men by punishments , for opposing you , and yet he must not deterre heretiques by corporall penalties for opposing the truth ? love . if it was good in your hearts to thinke to reforme it 's much better to doe it . reply . does not god say , it was well that david thought to build a temple , but yet for all that he should not build it ? and doe you dare to blame this very thing ? cannot the scripture be quiet for you ? answ. i might observe that you doe not onely leave out much of my words , but also pervert them ; 't is a fault so frequently committed by you , and reproved by me , that i am weary to tell you of it any more . i come to answer your interrogatories in your reply . you demand , doth not god say , it was well that david thought to build the temple , yet hee should not build it ? i say so too , and never said the contrary ; i acknowledge , god said , 't was well that david thought to build him an house , but yet he should not doe it , i denyed not that , but this i deny , that ever god said to the parliament , it was well in them to thinke to reforme , but yet they must not doe it . i have spoken to this at large in my animadversions on your sermon , wherefore i forbeare it now ; and whereas you charge mee that the scripture cannot bee quiet for mee , i answer ; i meddle not with the scripture , but onely with your corrupt application of it ; in which there were six absurdities , as i have evidently demonstrated in my animadversions on your sermon . love . you neede not feare losing a party . reply yea , but how if god be in that party ? what then sir , is it not better keeping a little poore despised party that hath god in it , then a great and numerous party without god ? again , did you preach before the parliament to make or cast off parties ; doth this appertain to the mystery of christ and the father ? reader , those men are so over-busie in making and marring parties , that i much feare they will in the end throw the kingdome into more misery and bloud , then their predecessors haue done . answer . there are no lesse then five mistakes , which run through the ve●nes of this reply . 1. that that party which opposeth presbyteriall government are the peculiar people who have god among them . 2. that the presbyterian party , though great and numerous , have not god on their side , but are still without god . 3. that i preacht before the parliament to make parties ; whereas the lord knowes , i did not intend to preach a word of all this : to which you reply , untill i heard the many falshood that you so confidently delivered . 4. that my preaching did not appertain to the mystery of christ and the father , because ( as you say ) i preacht to make parties ; but yours must go under the name of gospel-light , & preaching of christ , though the scope and intendment ; of your sermon was to make a party what else did you intend in your last addresse to the parliament , after you desired a toleration to assemble together , when and where and how you list ; if the parliament would grant you this liberty , how did you as the head of a partie assure the parliament in these words ? wee will be willingly contented to doe and suffer all things with you , wee will cheerefully runne through honour and dishonour with you , fame and infamy , gain and losse , trouble and quietnesse , peace and warre , life and death , and that you would desire nothing but this liberty , to preach and publish the truth . if this was not a party , if you might have a toleration , i understand not plaine english . 5. your fifth mistake is , in affirming that the presbyterians will throw the kingdome into more misery and blood then the prelates have done : alas , i may returne you an answer in your own words , that you ascribe your owne works to our hands ; if ever the kingdome be brought into misery and blood ( which god forbid ) you may thank your selves for crying up an universall toleration ; for making a causelesse seperation from communion with us ( whom yet you ( at least some of you ) acknowledge to bee a churches of christ ) for fostering divisions , alienating the people from their faithfull pastors , and broaching damnable heresies , which crying provocations may prove a grave to all our hopes , and a resurrection to all our former troubles , miseries and bloodshed . love . reformation is no forcing conscience , it meddles not with conscience , it retaines practice ; if a iesuite come from rome to kill a great person , he does it in conscience , but i meddle not with his conscience , i restrain his practise . reply . doth your reformation only restraine outward practice ? then to tye up mad dogs and beares and tygers is your most excellent reformation you that will not meddle with the consciences of men , it is no wonder you are making so many iron yokes for their necks , and so many snares and fetters to hamper the outward man , the proper subject it seems of your reformation ; and thus taking upon your selves the reformation of the outward man , you do indeed put the magistrates work to an end , and then the assembly may serve in the place of the house of commons , and sion colledge in the place of the lord major , aldermen , and common-councell . see ye not , oh you powers of the world , how the ecclesiasticall powers would eat you out ? &c. answ , in this part of your reply ( 't is so long i cannot write it all ) i perceive four bitter invectives , viz. 1. against ecclesiasticall reformation , as if it were not worthy the name of reformation , because it doth onely restrain outward practice ; whereas 't is rather a commendation to the reformation desired , that it can doe so much , then a discommendation of it that it can do no more . 2. you inveigh against reformation , that the excellency of it is to tye up mad-dogs , and beares , and tygers : to tell you the truth , i think those that tye up those un●uly creatures , doe better then they that let them loose to hurt and to destroy ; presbyterians ( as you confesse ) by their reformation tye up those savage beasts , but you by your universall toleration let loose heretiques , ( who in scripture are compared to hurtful beasts ) to have their liberty to vent errors , destroy souls , and make prey of the simple ; who then doe best , whether they that tye up mad-dogs , beares , or tygers , or those that let them loose , the reader will judge . 3. you inveigh against the reformation likewise , as if iron yokes and fetters for the outward man were the proper subject of this reformation : whereas presbyterians doe unanimously acknowledge the censures of the church are onely spirituall , they reach not the outward man neither in estate , liberty , or life ; that belongs onely to the civil magistrate : mr. dell , let me tell you 't is not fit , that when you cannot confute a party , you should belie them ; when you cannot overthrow what the presbyterians hold , to asperse them with what they hold not . 4. you inveigh against the assembly at westminster , and the ministers of london , as if the assembly would ●ome in the place of the house of commons , and sion colledge in the place of the lord major , aldermen , and common-councell , p. 40. i see at whom you levell your invenomed arrows , you carry an akeing tooth against the assembly and city ministers ; 't is your usual way , that those with whom you dare not dispute by arguments , you would disparage by slanders . time hath bin when you would have given better words of the convocation house , then you can now give the assembly , and of the lazy prelates , then you can now of painfull preache●s ; i wish you might repent of both . there are many other unsavoury passages in the latter end of your reply , which hath made your book to stinke before the people , both in vain commendations of your self , censorious expressions of me , and scandalous aspersions on others . is not the end of your reply stuft with a high conceit of your own sermon , and a false conceit of mine ? do not you boast that your sermon savors wel to the faithful , and ill to the world , and mine the contrary ? are not you so highly conceited of your sermon , that it might be preacht anywhere , where the gospel hath a free passage , and mine onely fit for rome , or some place else , where the precious word is under restraint ? do not you glory in your own light , which you call sometimes new , other whiles gospel light , and lay me under this condemnation , that i have but old light , and am but an old creature still ? i le not spend time in my own vindication , i had rather write an hundred lines to vindicate the truth , then one line to vindicate my selfe . but you rest not here , you are lavish in your censures of others also . do not you say ecclesiasticall powers would ●ate out the powers of the world ? do not you say that the ministers of this kingdome ( if you mean any body else tell , us so ) would exalt themselves in christs stead in the church , and set under their feet the magistrates power in the world , and that this is so evident , that there is some operation of satan upon him that sees it not . i need not returne answer to these vaine-glorious and censorious expressions , the very mention thereof will be a sufficient confutation to worke in the hearts of the people , a detestation of what you preacht and printed . i may end this answer as you doe ( almost ) your reply , concerning me , that there are many other weake , passionate , inconsiderate , and erroneous passages in your epistles , sermon , and reply , neither worth troubling the reader with , nor my selfe . a post-script , vindicating the author from many unjust aspersions cast upon him . master dell in his epistle to the honourable house of commons , reports that i preacht against the articles at oxford ; which i did not , for when i desired the honourable worthies of parliament to cast their eyes upon the universitie to reform it i did premise this , that in what i should say i would no wayes reflect on the articles at oxford ? which being made ( as i said ) stands with the honour and justice of the parliament to have them kept ; was this to preach against the articles ? 2. mr dell in his epistle also chargeth me that i called the parliament a mongrill parliament , which i did not ; indeed i said because errours and heresies spread , and the promoters thereof are not punisht therefore others accuse them to be so , but i never did . 3. it is reported that mr dell should shew me his notes before he preacht , and that i did approve the matter , yet spent time in study to gain-say what he delivered : the originall of this report i finde to be one mr ireton in pater-noster row ; who saith that his brother commissary ireton did affirm this to be true , which indeed is utterly false ; i never saw mr dels face untill the munday before the fast , nor had i any more words with him then to put to his choyce what part of the day he would chuse to preach on ; i never knew one word of his sermon untill i heard him preach it . 4. i am aspersed for gain-saying what was preacht , and that so suddenly and publickely ; the truth is , had i consulted with flesh and blood , to consider the greatnesse of the assembly , the scantling minute i had for meditation and recollection of what he preacht ; if i had considered also whom i should likely displease , what censures i should incur , i should have been silent ; but overlooking this and well weighing that i could not be true unto my own principles , nor my inward peace , nor to the truth it selfe , i was constrained in spirit to shew my dislike in giving some innocent touches on severall unsound passages in the sermon ; presuming if one man dare be so bold to publish error , another may take boldnesse to vindicate the truth . 5. i am censured for not printing my sermon , as if i were ashamed or recanted of what i said ( which i professe i do not ; ) well i had rather lye under this censure then run into mr dells error , to print a sermon preached before the parliament , without their order . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a49256e-280 * gainas being addicted to the arian heresie , petitioned arcadius the emperor , that he might have favor , within his territories , to have a church for the publike exercise of arianisme , making this the ground of his request , that he had done him great service , and gotten great victories for the romans ; yet arcadius the emperour denyed his request ( upon the advice of chrysostome , ) and although gain●s had done serv●●e in the wars , yet would hee not give him a toleration for the publike exercise of the arian heresie in the church ; see theod. hist. lib. 5. c. 32. mr. dells epistle● fifth leafe . mr. dells epistle to the reader . notes for div a49256e-850 * fox in his acts & monum. 1 vol. p. 88. mr. dell is mistaken in expounding his text . mr. dell by the expounding of his text declar●s himselfe to be a socinian mr. dells sermon . p. 2. l. ●6 . animadvers. ●r . dells serm. ●3 l. 16. ●nimadvers. ●r . dell an an●●nomian . ●r . dels serm. 〈…〉 . animadvers. mr. dels serm. p. 3 l. 3● . animadvers. ●r . burgesse in vindication the morall 〈◊〉 doth clear discover and ●●rnedly con●●●e this soci●ian tenet , ●32 . 〈◊〉 . dell is fal●●● into soci●nisme . mr. dels se●p. 5. l. 2. animadvers. mr dell aga●●● the first art● of the cove●nan● . mr. dels se●●p. 5. l. 2● . animadvers. ruthe●fo●d this place in sermon 〈◊〉 the ho●●rable house 〈◊〉 commons , 〈◊〉 . 31. 1643. th'that da●ius●●●uired 〈◊〉 subjecti●● to the god daniel , 〈◊〉 the word ●●mb●ing , and ●●ward subje●●●on under the ●ord s●are . ● . burtnons●●dication of ●●e indepen●●nt churches , ●●70 . mr. dell se●●p●l 33. * though i 〈◊〉 not a friend prelates , yet t is fit we should give the devill his due ; prelates renounce what mr. dell doth cha●● them with ; hee saith that what they brought to kings after they had studied ▪ they must maintai● and not question ▪ the prelates say otherwise , that kings must truely informe their consciences to●●ching the truth of that religion they do establish vide ; davenant : dispu●●de de judice ac no●ma fidei p : 7●ad 77. animadvers. see the ●●nsiderati●●s and cauti●●s agreed ●p●● by the mini●●●rs of london●●d westmin●●●r at sion●olledge iune● . 1646. p. 5. ● . ● . dells serm. ●7 . l. 1. ●●imadvers. mr. dells serm● p. 9 l. 8. animadvers. ●●gust in e●●st : 48. ●●bellius on ●●de v. 23. ioh. 11 . 5● mr. dells se●● ▪ p. ●3 . l. 30. animadvers. vide t●sta● bus●ens . in ch● 22.8 . king 5.15.6 ●r . dels serm. 14. l. 1. ●nimadvers. absurdity . absurdity . absurdity . 4 absurdity . 5 absurdity . brightman on revel. 19.13 . 6 absurdity . mr. dels serm. ● . 15. l. 31 animadvers. see mr. ru●herfords due ●●ght of presby●eries , p. 359. ●onclus . 1. ●ee mr. dels●pistle d●di●atory third ●ase . ●r . dels serm. ● . 19.14 . animadvers. 1 pet. 19.20 . mr. dell serm. p. 20. l. 3● . animadvers. mr. dell ser● . p. 21. l : 1 : animader● . ●neh●●m mis●●m . in cap de ●●gistratu sic ●●bit omnes fere nostra●ibus ●●ius sunt sen●tiae quod ho●●● si●t gladis ●●itudi . ●●a in librum ●●tra holderum ●●lac . andreae ●●no 81. edito 21. see mr. bur●roughs of he● divisions , p● & 21. mr. dels ser● p. 22. l. 16 mr. dells ser●p. 22. l. 21. animadvers. mr. dels serm. ● . 23. l. 1. ●nimadvers. ●r : dells serm. ● . 23. l. 9. ●nimadvers. mr. dell serm. ● . 23. l 35. animadvers. mr. del● serm. 24. l. 16. animadvers. ●panhemius●●argeth the ●nabaptists in ●ermany , to bee the occasion of ●any commoti●ns . mr. dells sermon , p. 24 l. 33 ●nimadvers ●eply , p. 36. ●ne 13. ●stendit qualis 〈◊〉 christi ad●●ncus sine pom●● aut apparatu ●●alis regibus ●●renis esse so●●● , adventu enim ●egum varit ●epitus & in●●ntes ac●lama●●nes , cal●●n in loc. ●●d . wolfe , ●usculus , in ●4 . 42.2 . mr. dels ser●p. 25. l. 16. animadvers. socrat. lib. 1. hist. eccl. c. 8 ●errard , loc. ●●om de magi●ratu politico●um . 33. mr. dels serm. ● . 25. l. 10. ●nimadvers. mr. dels serm. ● . 25. l. 33. animadvers. mr. dels serm p. 26. l. 1. animadvers. mr. dells ser●on , p. 26. l. 20 ●nimadvers. mr. dels serm. ● . 26. l. 24. ●nimadvers. mr. dels serm. ● . 27. l 9. ●nimadvers. mr. dells serm. ● 27 l. 27. animadvers. mr. dels ser● p. 30. l. 11 animadvers. mr. dels ser● p. 30. l. 33. animadvers. ●● . dells serm. ● 1. l. ult. ●●imadvers . notes for div a49256e-8270 see the title-page to mr. dells sermon . vide minsh●● 〈◊〉 his guide ●nto the ●ongues p. 125 ●n the word deale from the sax●n word deelen , dividere . a gr. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . mr. dels reply p. 34. line 10. 1 cor. 11. (b) certum paulus non nisi de exter●● decoro loq● tur , cal. in 1 cor : 11. c pareus in ●in diciti 〈◊〉 lus non po●●rat brevibu●● epistolis o●●nia comple●● quae ad pa●●cularem sin 〈◊〉 la●um ecclesiarum discip●●nam & errorum vitior●● que correc● r●m requir● 〈◊〉 ; ideo &c. (d) reliqua 〈◊〉 dinabo , ea 〈◊〉 pertinentia a● ordinem ec●●●siasticae poli●●tiae , piscator locum . mr. burroughs of heart-divisions , p. 24. principes bi fuere profani , ad quos lex illa forensis a mose ●●ta non pertineba● , & tamen aequum putabant , ut in impies capitali poena animadverteretur ; voluit igitur formulas illas edictorum extare spiritus sanctus ▪ ut principes christianos puderet in vindi●●nda religione , profanis regi●us priores concedere . beza de haereticis . acts. 19.32 . ● {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . 1. mistake ▪ 2. mistake . 3 mistake . 4 mistake 5 m●●eak p. 39. p. 40. a short ansvver to a. s. alias adam stewart's second part of his overgrown duply to the two brethren. together with certaine difficult questions easily answered; all which a. stewart is desired to consider of, without replying, unlesse it be to purpose. a. steuart [sic] in his second part of his duply to the two brethren. page 166. the civill magistrate cannot bee orthodox, and tollerate a new sect, (hee meanes independencie, and may as well say presbytery) unles hee tollerate us to beleeve that hee is either corrupted by moneys, or some other waye, so to doe. goodwin, john, 1594?-1665. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a85414 of text r8324 in the english short title catalog (thomason e27_6). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 98 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 21 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a85414 wing g1201 thomason e27_6 estc r8324 99873278 99873278 125743 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a85414) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 125743) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 5:e27[6]) a short ansvver to a. s. alias adam stewart's second part of his overgrown duply to the two brethren. together with certaine difficult questions easily answered; all which a. stewart is desired to consider of, without replying, unlesse it be to purpose. a. steuart [sic] in his second part of his duply to the two brethren. page 166. the civill magistrate cannot bee orthodox, and tollerate a new sect, (hee meanes independencie, and may as well say presbytery) unles hee tollerate us to beleeve that hee is either corrupted by moneys, or some other waye, so to doe. goodwin, john, 1594?-1665. [4], 36 p. s.n.], [london? : printed in the yeare 1644. annotation on thomason copy: "london. feb. 3d". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng steuart, adam. -second part of the duply to m. s. alias two brethren. church polity -early works to 1800. church and state -england -early works to 1800. a85414 r8324 (thomason e27_6). civilwar no a short ansvver to a. s. alias adam stewart's second part of his overgrown duply to the two brethren.: together with certaine difficult que goodwin, john 1644 17320 122 0 0 0 0 0 70 d the rate of 70 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the d category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-09 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-10 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-07 olivia bottum sampled and proofread 2008-07 olivia bottum text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a short answer to a. s. alias adam stewart's second part of his overgrown duply to the two brethren . together with certaine difficult questions easily answered ; all which a. stewart is desired to consider of , without replying , unlesse it be to purpose . a. steuart in his second part of his duply to the two brethren . page . 166. the civill magistrate cannot bee orthodox , and tollerate a new sect , [ hee meanes independencie , and may as well say presbytery ] unles hee tollerate us to beleeve that hee is either corrupted by moneys , or some other waye , so to doe . proverb . 12. 13. the wicked is snared by the trasgression of his lips : but the iust shall come out of trouble . printed in the yeare 1644. three of a stevart's conclvsions , with their paralells , which are added for better explanation of them ; their contradicting of themselves and their rebellious doctrine . conclusion . 1. pag. 105. the supreame ecclesiasticall judicature itselfe may fear that if they judge any thing amisse , their judgements will not bee approved , and put in execution in perticular churches ; and in all probability they are like to bee crossed [ iust as much as independents aske for , by this ensuing paralell . ] paralell . particular churches or congregations may examin the iudgements of the supreme ecclesiastical iudicature , and if they find them to bee amisse ▪ they may refuse to put them in execution , they may crosse them . conclvsion . 2. pag. 30. the civil magistrate is subject in a spirituall way unto the church ; hee must learne gods will by the ministers of the church who are gods ambassadours sent to him : hee must bee subject unto ecclesiasticall censures . conclvsion . 3. pag. 166. whatsoever the ecclesiasticall senate or presbiterie is bound not to tolerate , but must suppresse in the church ; that , the civil magistrate is bound not to tolerate , but must suppresse in the state : neither is the civil magistrate lesse bound to put it out of the state ; than the presbyterie is to put it out of the church ▪ [ exquisite poperie ; pestilent doctrine as appeares yet more clearely by this following paralell . ] paralell . if the presbytery shall think good to excommunicate king or parliament ; the civil magistrate , the people in whom the soveraign power resid●s originally , pag. 167. is absolved from all obedience , and bound to put them out of the civil state . a tast of a. stevart's extravagancies and contradictions in the second part of his duply to the two brethren . page 13. the civill magistrate [ even ] as christian , has power not to admit the true religion , to reject it , yea when it is receaved or approved , and confirmed by his secular and civill authority , to reject it and exile it . if the church bee corrupt ▪ and church officers negligent in their charge , and will not reforme it [ as the magistrate thinks good ; ] hee may command , yea compell them to do it . when the church is reformed , hee may command them , when they are negligent to bee diligent in their charge . if [ hee conceave ] they oppres any man in their ecclesiastical judgements and censures ▪ against the lawes of the kingdome , hee may desire them , yea command them to reverse their judgements ; and in case they reforme them not , [ againe ] command them , yea compel them by his civill power , to give him satisfaction , according to the lawes of the kingdome ▪ if [ hee conceave ] they derogate not from the lawes of god , [ which neither popish nor turkish magistrates will acknowledge , though their lawes bee never so contrary to the word of god . ] page . 166. the civill magistrate if hee follow gods word cannot grant a tolleration [ of independent churches ] without consent of the church , if hee judge it is not corrupted : [ as if the church being corrupted ; the magistrate may bee corrupt too , and tolerate what hee will . ] page . 47. how be it , the church compel not to subscribe ; yet the civill magistrate after sufficient conviction may compell to subscribe or to begon . pag. 179. what power hath the king or parliament to intrude and force upon the kingdome new religions or a tolleration of all sects ? the parliament assume no such power unto it selfe . a short answer to a. s. alias adam stewarts second part of his overgrown duply to the two brethren . sir ; had you concealed your selfe under the two first letters of your name , all the a. s'es in towne and country would never have beene able to cleare themselves ; for what you make but words of ; however , i may not adde a tittle in commendation of you for preamble to this pamphlet , as you tell us ( and is no more then requisite to justifie your own epistle ) is ordinary with writers in dedication of their bookes , least i bee put to a more shamefull recantation then a. s. was , and that for nothing but what charitie , as himselfe confesses , induced him to acknowledge in behalfe of the apologists . give mee leave then to observe first , that pag. 21. 23. you say idolatry is a sin against the second commandment . juris naturalis & perpetui ; insinuating that the power and duty of punishing both idolatrie and heresie is such also : if so ; then it obliges all nations of the world , and consequently supposes them capable to judge of all manner of idolatrie and heresie , which we see to bee notoriously false , and that , besides the confounding ecclesiasticall with civil power , whilest one state punishes this or that for heresie , it cannot possibly bee otherwise , ( since they are not onely different but diametrically opposite in profession ) but that another must canonize it for a sacred truth : secondly if states and powers must punish hereticks , they are bound to punish those for such onely , who in their owne judgements are such : and if you will engage states in punishing of hereticks , and they punish onely such as they find themselves obliged to punish in their own consciences and understandings , how can you according to your doctrine , blame them for punishing gods dearest children instead of hereticks , since they tooke them to bee hereticks , and thought they had done god and you good service to punish them ? if wee may not suffer hereticks to live amongst us ; then is the parliament to blame for suffering german , french , spanish , and portugal papists or dutch brownists and anabaptists to live here amonst us , though as marchants , onely for a time ; since their marchandizing gives them greater advantage of working people to their opinions by the respective civil conveniences and benefits , which they bring both to the whole nation in generall , and to some in particular ; nay , the very ambassadours of what states or potentates soever of different religions , ought not to bee permitted to reside ledgers amongst us under any pretence , if this doctrine bee evangelicall : so likewise may not wee under pretext of marchandize , live in turkish popish lutheran or other countreys differing from us in religion , travel into such parts for fashion sake as is usuall , nor keepe ambassadours there , nor bee by forrain states permitted to remain amongst them , if we would , or on any termes joine with such in wedlock ; man may by no meanes dispence herewith , if the command for punishing herecie and schisme bee naturall and perpetuall as is pretended &c. pag. 29. you quote out of deut. 17. 12. the man that doth presumptuously and will not hearken unto the priest , or unto the iudge , even that man shall dye ; aleadging , that there is the sa●e reason for the ministers of the new testament &c. but that wee may clearely see what dangerous consequences would follow hereupon , it may bee best to returne back unto the place in deut. 17. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. 13. the text sayes ; if there arise a matter too hard for thee in iudgement between bloud and bloud , between plea and plea , and between stroake and stroake , being matters of controversy within thy gates : then shalt thou arise and get thee up into the place which the lord thy god shall chuse : and thou shalt come unto the priests and levites , and unto the iudge which shall be in those dayes and enquire , and they shall show the sentence of iudgement : and thou shalt doe according to the sentence which they of that place ( which the lord shall chuse ) shall shew thee , and thou shalt observe to doe according to all that they enforme thee : according to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee , and according to the iudgments which they shall tell thee , thou shalt doe : thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall sh●w thee to the right hand nor to the left : then follows how the man that will do presumptuously and will not hearken unto the priest ( that standeth to minister there before ●●y lord thy god ) or unto the iudg , even that man shall dye and then shalt put away the evil from israel : and all the people shall ●eare , and feare , and doe no more presumptuously : to let passe all other exceptions to as . his misapplication of this text which was directed peculiarly to the iewes , and cannot concern any other people except papists who interpret rome to bee the place spoken of , verse 18. which god did chuse , and the pope to bee sole supreme infallible judge , priest and levite of these dayes to bee enquired after in matter of such difficulty and moment : if this law bee of naturall and perpetual obligation , as is insinuated by saying ; there is the same reasons for the ministers of the gospel , it will follow , that upon all matter of difference whether for blood , plea , or controversie verse 8. though any people , even gods owne , bee never so uniustly sentenced , ty●a●●i●ally enslaved , and most antichristianly persecuted ; they must by no meanes decline such sentence all the dayes of their life , least they bee thought to do presumptuously and so be put to death : what if a good number of the great turkes subjects should have their understandings enlightned to see the captivity and bondage they are brought into ? what if god should open the eyes of papists in spaine , italy , and france ▪ to see the spirituall fornication they are ravished into , and each of these nations in a submissive godly manner humbly implore their princes both for all common priviledges of nature , and christian liberties of the gospel ; if the respective priests and iudges instead of redressing their just grievances shall say as pharaoh did , exod. 5. 8. 9. 17. t ▪ is idlenesse which makes them seeke for lawfull priviledges and christian liberties , commanding their egyption task-masters to encrease both their civil and spiritual slavery ; must they not according to as . his divinity and pollicy still suffer themselves and their posterity to continue turkish bond-slaves and antichristian idolaters , lest they be judged to do presumptuously and so be put to death ? can as . avoyd this consequence ? will the priests levites and judges appointed in these times and countries unto which as . binds them over remedilesse , give other sentence ? deut. 17. 9. surely if the case bee so , wee might well desire that god would make us jewes to whom as i said those laws were given ; or send us christian laws to govern us withall . tell me a little ; when jereboam set up two calves of gold in dan and bethel , crying out behould your gods o israel , which brought you up out of the land of egypt : 1. king. 12. 28. 29. 30. &c. doe you not think hee did conjure the people not to go up so farre unto ierusalem to sacrifice , alleadging from your text in deut. 17. 8. 9. 12. that it was the sentence of the priest and judges it should bee so , from which they might no whitt decline , lest they were found to do presumptuously ? doubtlesse his plea was this ; from hence hee enforced his commandment for the peoples joyning with him in worshipping his gods , his calves ; and had as good a warrant for it then , as as . has now to say , there is the same reason for the presbyterian ministers of the gospel to legitimate their own inventions , their idolatry , the 12. and 13. chapters of the first of the kings are worth reading , that beholding their own , in iereboams sinnes , and calling to minde gods judgments on him , they may in time repent , lest a worse thing befall them . but wheras you would oblidge us unrepealably to stand to whatsoever your presbyterie degree concerning us , by sacriledgiously producing and blasphemously applying those reasons and effects which were only appliable at such a time , and to such a people as god was pleased to discover doubtfull cases to , as by oracle in the mouth of the high priest , chiefe judge , or levites ; i may not forbeare to tell you that your presbiterians are now noe better southsayers then their neighbours , they must either confesse to be of the same royall priesthood with their brethren in the masse 1. pet. 2. 9. and so pretend no more than others , or else be out of it , and so be baals priests , if any . but that wee may clearely understand the full ground , whereupon god required obedience from the people unto the sentence of the priests judges and levites , as also a commensurate reason , why the people might not onely without scruple , but with full and entire satisfaction yeeld such obedience , as was expected from them , it may bee exceeding requisite to make search into gods originall proceedings , as well before , as after , that hee imposed his commands upon the jewes in this behalfe . first , god calls upon moses saying , that hee would send him unto pharaoh to bring his israel out of egypt . exod. 3. 10. moses excuseth himselfe unto the lord , saying , they would not beleave him nor hearken 〈◊〉 him , alledging , that the lord had not appeared unto him . chap. 4 , 1. hereupon the lord furnished him with miracles from verse . 3. to 9. and 17. 21. ordering him to take aaron unto his assistance , saying , that he would bee with both their mouthes and teach them what they should say . verse , 12. 15. that aaron should put upon his heart the breast-plate of judgement wherin was vrim and thuminim , that he should beare the judgement of the children of israel upon his heart before the lord continually exod. 28. 30. lev. 8. 8. according whereunto iethro ( prophetically no doubt ) counselled moses his sonne in law not to ware out himselfe with continuall attendance of the people from morning untill evening to enquire for them of god , but that hee would provide able men out of all the people , who might judge of all smaller matters themselves , and bring the greater unto moses , who was to bee for the people to god-ward , and bring the causes unto god . exod. 18. from verse , 8. 13. to 22. and when moses was to bee gathered to his people , the lord required him to lay his hands on joshua , in whom was the spirit , that hee might bee enabled to goe in and out before the people , and stand before the priest who should aske counsell for them in all doubtfull matters . numb. 27. 13. 17. 18. 21. the priests and iudges being thus miraculously qualified , god commanded the people in all streights and controversies of difficulty to have recourse unto them for sentence or direction ; according whereunto they were required to yeeld absolute obedience without gain-saying or murmuring , lest they were put to death as those that did presumptuously , deut. 17. 8. to 13. and 19. 7. 2. ch. 19. 11. 1. sam. 9. 9. 2. sam ▪ 24. 11. 1 , king. 14. 3. 2. king. 8. 8. with diverse others : and well they did deserve it doubtlesse , when they might see such infallible evidence in these ministeres of the lord , that it was his divine pleasure it should be so , and that for their advantage too ▪ the children of israel therefore had recourse unto them upon all occasion , and the lord kept good correspondence with them , not answering them by amphibologies , doubtfull and delusive oracles , but by discovering to them , his will his purposes and intentions about whatsoever they enquired of him 1. sam 22. 13. 14. 15. jer. 23. 37. amos 3. 7. judg. 1. 1. and 20. 18 so on the contrary , when they tooke in hand an enterprise without asking his counsell and advice , we may observe it did not thrive with them , it proved otherwise than they desired , as when joshua made league with the gibeonites joshua 9. 14. and now not to send you againe to the jewes , though you will have much a doe to finde an other nation to which you may apply your text of deut. 17. 8. 9. in which the sentence spoken of , must either bee fallible , or infallible ; if fallible , then it followes that god required the people to hearken , and bee subject unto such sentences as might bee sinfull ; such as they apprehended to be unjust and sinfull ; such as were in themselves absolutely sinfull , ( for all these cases might possibly have hapned upon such a supposition ) which were blasphemy to imagine : if the sentence bee to bee presumed infallible , then questionlesse god might very justly require the people to bee subject to it and impose a law unalterable after the manner of the meades and persians , that such as would not harken to it , might bee condemned to dye , as one that did presumptuously : doe but prevaile then with your presbyters , in cortesie , to discover to us some gleanings of their prophetick spirit ; or let us see what signes and wonders god is pleased to do by their mediation , more then by other mens ; and then whosoever will not yeeld a proportionable honour and obedience to them , for my part , let artaxarxes his decree be put in execution against him , whether it be to imprisonment ▪ confiscation of goods , banishment , or death : ezra . 7. 26. in the mean time if there bee any thing of godlinesse , or understanding of a man in you , dispence with such as cannot make idolls , fall downe and worship them . pag. 30 ▪ sayes the civil magistrate is subiect in a spirituall way unto the church , and that the church is subiect to the civill magistrate in a civill way : but what if these different judicatiories will not bee subject to each other in their respective spher's ? what if the civill magistrate will not learne gods will by the ministers of the church ? as as . sayes hee must . pag. 30. what if hee become heretical , schismaticall ● must he● not bee proceeded against by the utmost of church censures , to wit , excommunication ? and if hee bee not worthy to remaine in the church ; must hee not by as . his doctrine bee turned out , or cut off from the civill state ? but some perhaps will be so court affected as to say , if the magistrate will be so , who can help it ▪ w●● must suffer what we cannot remedie : 't is true we must ; but pag , 166. you say that whatsoever the ecclesiasticall senate or presbyterie is bound not to tolerate but must suppresse in the church ; that , the civill magistrate or senate it bound not to tolerate , but must suppresse in the state , since he is a nurse of the state , and keeper of the two tables : and since whatsoever power the civill magistrates have , is derived from the people ; who sayes there is no remedie against a magistrate thus offending ? are not both houses of parliament , are not millions of the people enough to do justice in such a case ? but what if the civill magistrate be without , not of the church ? can you not with paul be contented that god should judge him ? 1 cor. 5 13. if you say 't is now too late to make such a querie , and that he was admitted into the church by baptisme so long since , will he not , think you , repent his baptisme , and co●● such little thanks as promised submission for him unto the church without his order and consent ? nay , will he not plead non-age ? you know there are many good lawes provided for relieving of the pupillage in money matters ; having then thus m●●acled the civil magistrate whilst he was in swadling cloutes , you say he must now be subject to the church ; and that if he be once turn'd out of the church , he must likewise be turn'd out of the civil state ▪ is not this the popish doctrin of l●●●ing subjects from their obedience to prince or parliament ? are we thus leap't out of the popish frying-pan into the midst of presbyterian firebrands ? but , i dare say , you●●● stagger , & deny the words , beeing laid unto your charge ; the truth is , i find by this discourse , that you haue a trecherous memory , which hath led you into such a company of unreconcileable contradictions , far worse than many theeves and harlots , but if your heart or understanding had been better than your memory , this doctrin had never issued : turn then to p● . 166 ▪ where you say that whatsoever the presbytery may not tolerate in the church , the civil magistrate must not tolerate in the state ; then turn to p. 179 where you say that al power is originally in the people , which makes them the supremest magistrate of al , above both king & parliament ; as king & parliament are above other inferiour and subordinate magistrates ▪ now if you know how to spel & put these together , this popish doctrin besides others will clearly arise from thence , to wit ; that if primes and magistrates become hereticks , they may be excommunicated ; if excommunicated , the subjects are freed from their obedience to them ; and the people which having al power in themselves originally , become the supremest magistrate of al , are bound to cut them off from the civill state , whether they be kings or parliaments . but let us beware of such infernal tenets , according unto which there would be found no safety , neither for prince nor parliament ; but each of them , and everie body else , all alike , be forced to be of whatsoever religion shall by most voyces in a consistorie or synod , be thought to be the true one ( which is too great a hazard ) or else be deemed to doe presumptuously , and so loose their lives : but ch. 3. you say , if the church be corrupt , and the church officers negligent in their charge , and will not reforme it , the civill magistrate may command , yea , compell them to do it ; or if they will not , he may extraordinarily do it himselfe ▪ good now ; who shall here reach the civil magistrate whether the church be corruptor no ? at what time the church officers be negligent in their charge , not willing to reforme ; and when they oppresse any man with ecclesiasticall censures ? if you say the civil magistrate himselfe may see it by bringing them to the rule of gods word ; do you not contradict your selfe in page 30. and elsewhere saying , the civil magistrate must learn gods will by the ministers who are gods ambassadours sent unto him ? is it possible to reconcile the civil magistrate unto the spirituall office-bearers in such a case as this ? nay , is it ever possible for as . to make his atonement with this present assembly for frustrating so many yeares endeavours as they are like to make of it , in saying the civil magistrate hath power not to admit the true church , to reject it , yea , when it is received or approved , and confirmed by his secular and civil authority , to reject it and exile it ibid ? which yet is true enough ; but do you think the synod would have taken soe great paines , and our scotch brethren have sacrificed so much of their own blood , if even at best it should have been so hazardous whether ever their presbyterian discipline should be received or no ; or when received ▪ rest in ●uch dayly danger to bee turned out againe with shame ? is it not an ea●●y matter for the civil magistrate to say , these presbyterian churches are growne corrupt , their way of government was never apostolical and good , they ▪ tyrannize over their brethren insted of feeding them ▪ aiming at no reformation soe much as to get themselves into the fattest , benifices , and so banish them into america or some worse place ? woe would it have beene for any independent to have beene knowne to publish such theologie such heresie : page 47. you say how be it the church compell men not by externall vi●l●●ce to subscribe contrary to their judgements , yet the civil magistrate after sufficient conviction may compell you to subscribe or to be gon &c. the church you say compels not externally , but the civil magistrate may : but whence hath the civil magistrate this power in church affaires ? or why may not the church use the civil externall armes in church matters , rather then the civil magistrate should e●terpose with his owne weapons in church affaires ? is it not all one , think wee , in the sight of god , for church-men , church officers themselves to hang such a one whom they deeme a heretick , as to set a crosse a gallowes , a marke upon him , out of a tacit compact with the civil magistrate to hang him whensoever , or wheresoever he should meet with him ? if a combination of any people should thus compasse the death of any man , would they not all equally bee found guiltie ? shall a politick reservation of popish canon or civil law to keepe the clergie from the peoples odium , thus delud all christians to the end of the world ? may church-men connive ▪ approve , teach , and applaud the civil magistrate in punishing whosoever they suppose to be hereticks by imprisonment or death ; and not as innocently as christianly bee executioners themselves ? perhaps they will say they have no authority nor call to become executioners , to banish ▪ imprison or put to death ( and yet they have as good a call as to approve it in the civil magistrate ; ) but this is not the poynt wee stand upon : what if a towne or principality were giuen unto a company of presbyterian clergie-men ? ( i cannot think they will refuse it ) would they in such a case imprison banish or cause hereticks to die in this their principality ? if they say ( as the pope in the same case ▪ as pilate when he crucifide iesus ▪ and bishop b●nner whilst he made so many protestane martyrs ) they may not wash their hands in the blood of hereticks ; i reply neither in the blood of civil delinquents by the selfe same principle of theirs ▪ if they referre such judicature and executing of spirituall or civil offenders unto laymen to be their deputies within this principality of theirs ; i answere that this is but a popish eua●ion ; and such blood being shed by their authority or approbation ; must be accounted for by them ▪ as if they themselves had sat upon the bench , passed sentence , and beene executioners : if hereticks were punishable by death as murderers and traitors , i know no cause but that clergie-men ▪ if neede were , might as actually assist at execution of the one , as of the other : but if any man should expect my opinion of what these presbyterian clergie-men may doe upon the proffer of such a principality ; i confesse the refusall thereof might seem a verie great degree of evangelicall perfection , and the excessive care and travel which is required to govern it , though by a substitute , are altogether inconsistent with the ministerie of the gospel ; but to interpret the passing sentence and execution of death by such deputies or their officers , to be so intirely the peculiar acts of such deputies only , as that the said presbyterian clergie-men from whom the jurisdiction is derived , had not even as great a share therein ▪ as if they had beene present upon the bench , is a meere popish invention and delusion . our saviour and his apostles did neither tell the magistrates that then were , that it concerned them so much more to become christians that they might compel their subjects to be so too ; nor yet gave the christians instructions , or left upon record any such order or warrant ▪ that when ever the magistrate did become christian they might constraine the people to christianity &c. but in the same pag. 74. you graunt these spiritual delinquents must be first sufficiently convinced , alleadging that after a sufficient conviction , it is , morally , and should be supposed that they know the truth ; or should know it ; or if they know it not , that nothing can have bl●dered them , but their owne pertinaciousnes , which cannot excuse , but rather aggravates their ●in : but what , i pray , or how much do you call sufficiently convinced ? how can any one do otherwise , than yeeld unto whatsoever you have convinced him of ▪ how can you bee infallibly assured that a man ●s sufficiently convinced , if he himselfe denyes it ? how know you which is gods ●●oure for convincing of a man ? may not you likewise possibly interpret a dulnesse of apprehension in him , or your owne want of truly and well informing him , to bee his obstinate wilfull rejecting of the truth ▪ are there not above 24 degrees of capacity and understanding between some men , and shall such whom god and nature have made more dull or lesse ingenious in judging of presbyterian discipline or doctrin be condemned to banishment or death for these defects of nature , beleeving , or discoursing about matters of beleefe , or but opinion only ? such you say the civil magistrate may compel to subscribe , [ against their conscience ] or to bee gon : but who gives the civil magistrate this authoritie ▪ or how comes hee to know or understand them to bee hereticks ? the presbyterian clergie-men , i hope , will be no more informers than executioners ; i am sure in most ( of such as are aleadged to bee ) christian countryes , the informer is counted more infamous than the executioner , because the one does all the busines for the most part in darknesse and under board ; whereas the other exposes his actions to the publick view ▪ but why may not church officers themselves as well hang or cut the throat of such a heretick , whom they have prepared and designed for the shambles of the civil magistrats execution , by their excommunicating of him ? if the putting him to death were just , they need not use any machivillian stratagem to prevent the peoples censuring them of cruelty , or make so nice to ●owle their fingers with the blood of such as they put to death deservedly : the levites when moses required them everie man to kill his son , his brother , companion , and his neighbour , were not so scrupulous exod. 32 27. 28. 29. and why may not the civil magistrate as well excommunicate , as banish or otherwise punish any hereticks ? doe not all punishments inflicted for spiritual offences , equally become spiritual ? or is it not necessary they should be spiritual to work a spiritual effect ? doubtlesse they bee , or ought to be so ; and if hanging of a spiritual offender bee as lawfull as excommunicating of him , surely , both the civil magistrate , and the presbyterian church officers may execute him , both alike . please then to satisfie me concerning these three queries : 1. by what authoritie does the civil magistrate punish a heretick ? 2. what is it he punishes him for ? 3. and thirdly , vpon what ●●●all and inditement ? if the few perticular warrants upon special occasion for punishing some certain idolaters expressy poynted it in the old testament , obliged all magistrates then ▪ and ever since to do the like ; you must condemne the greatest part of godly ▪ magistrates for omitting it ▪ and if you wil ha●● extraordinary 〈◊〉 to ●●gage th●● there unto upon all ordinary 〈◊〉 you must in●er that 〈◊〉 the people of the land who have entered into the la●e solemne league and covenant are bound with one accord to assault & cut the throats of al the papists they should meet withall , without any farther proces or impeachment , just as the israelites served mattan , b●als priest after that jehoida had made a covenant between the lord , the king , and the people 2. king 11. 17. 18. secondly , for what cause does the civil magistrate punish this church offender ? were it for civil delinquency , then is he no longer a meer heretick a bare church offender ; the church would have no jurisdiction to punish him for such civil delinquency : but that you may see it was for spiritual , for church offences for which he is unjustly banished , imprisoned or put to dea●h ; it wil appear upon the third query or inquiry , that the civil magist●ate proceeds against him after an implicit manner , by passing sentence by putting him to death upon the church triall and inditement only ; or else arraignes him the second time for the selfe same offence , ( a double injurie and injustice ) which , besides , being spiritual , the civil magistrate has no cognizance , is no competent judge thereof , nor can take upon himselfe any such authority without confounding the ecclesiasticall judicature with the civil . but i must trouble your patience a little longer with an other touch upon this string , this whipcord which you graunt the magistrate to scourge your brethren withal , in confidence your selves for this benevolence shall scape scotfree , and passe for white boyes , whatever offences you commit ; this no doubt wil expiate them all , and make attonement for them though they be never so many : you say the civil magistrate may compel [ men of different opinions ] to subscribe or to be gon ; nay , you say the civil magistrate may command and compel a corrupted church and negligent church officers into a reformation ; and that even when they are reformed , hee may command and compel them by his civil power , to give satisfaction , and reverse such ecclesiasticall censures and judgements , as the civil magistrate shall apprehend to bee oppressing unto any man , or contrary to the civil lawes : tell me , is this power which you present the civil magistrate withall in spirituall matters , a lesser , lesse spiritual or efficacious power , than what you reserve as peculiar to the church ? if it bee lesse , the civil magistrate surely is much beholding to you that you are so bountifull to him of such scrapps ; that you will set him ● work ( as the egyptian task-master did the israelites exo. 5. 18. ) with such leavings and shredds of discipline , and yet expect hee should doe that for you , which all your broad sides and batteries of decrees , ordnance , and canons of excommunication &c. could not effect ; and why i pray may not the church her selfe make use of small shot as well as greater ? but if you meane really side publica , and this power which you attribute to the civil magistrate concerning spiritual offenders and offences , be greater , more spiritual and efficacious to win and gain men unto true piety and godlinesse by fining , banishing , imprisonment or death ; can you not give him in the vantage ? can you not let him have the lesser of excommunication and other ceremonious ( in comparison of civil coercive ) censures ? briefly then ; if this power which you give the civil magistrate about the church , bee a toy or trifle , bate it him , and let not so many thousand ind●pendents your brethren be longer scandalized thereat ; but if you insist still to make it of so great concernment and necessity , teaching the people that the civil magistrate must likewise bee a terrour to spiritual offenders ; assure your selfe that both magistrate and people , will likely ere long see the injustice and absurdity , of having two magistrates to punish one offender for one fault , which also may disagree , may possibly contradict each other in their sentences , resolving through the corrupted principles which you instil , that the civil magistrate has power and understanding sufficient to discipline and govern both church and state . but perhaps you 'l say there is an act of parliament , a civil law declaring heresie , or any different , from the state opinions , such as for the present are in fashion to be censurable by the civil power : i answer not without all due respect unto the lawes and such as made them , that if there be any distinction betwixt a church state and a civil state , which all christians ●itherto acknowledged , the enacting civil lawes to punish spiritual offences , is not only a soloecisme an improprietie in state , but an incroaching on the churches power , a prophaning of the keyes , and injurious to the offender , who by this meanes is punished both beyond the degree and nature of his offence . but if you remember , as i put you in mind of before ; pag. 1●● , you say , whatsoever the ecclesiastical senate or presbyterie is bound not to tolerate , but must suppresse in the church ; that the civil magistrate is bound not to tolerate but must suppresse in the state : but if this bee true , must not the civil magistrate joyne with the ecclesiastial in judging of heresie , schisme and all church offences ? or if , forsooth , your meaning be the presbyterial officials shall have the preheminence and passe their verdict first ; are not the civil powers obliged to passe the like implicitly , to do the same good justice whether it bee right or wrong , or else set at large , to give a different judgment , and so , ips● fact● , condemne your doctrin as arrogant and heretical ? oh that you would but ba●e us these impertinencies , these inconsistencies ▪ how many fair sheetes of paper would it have saved from fowling ? but whereas you enthraule the magistrate hereunto as nursing-fathers and mothers ; you may as well engage your nurse to knock all children on the head , because they speake not so readily or plainly as your owne , though sublimated , extracted from mercuries braine : and yet this rule of yours needs not bee so stout to admit of no exceptions no qualifications ; since the off-spring of fornication or adultrie are forward imps , and forwardnes a character of such imps , though otherwise undiscovered to the world : but for the text in esa. 4● . 23. which propheside that the king● of the gentiles should become nursing fathers and their queens nursing mothers unto the church : mean you by their fighting for it ? by their cruel persecuting or tormenting christians ? 't is clearly by submitting themselves unto the churches spiritual yoake , by whose example their subjects might bee encouraged to do the like , of their owne free accord and godly disposition , without the least cullour of compulsion , in that the blessed spirit in the end of the same verse , brings for a reason of these kings and queens administring to the church , that they shall not be ashamed that waite for him ? now there would want a just capacity in them of being ashamed , for waiting on the church , or on christ the head thereof , if they were constrayned to wait . pag. 60. you say an ecclesiastical judicatore is nothing else but a certain n●mber of men endowed with an authoritive power according to gods word to judge of church ●usinesses according to gods glorie , and the weak of the church ; or in a word , the representative church of one parish , ●l●sse province , nation or of all the world : but where meet you with any such chimera of an ecclesiastical indicatorie in all the word of god ? where find you such an authoritive power as is by you insinuated ? where find you that it would be either for gods glorie , or the churches weale it should be so ? and last of all , where find you that a certain nomber of ecclesiasticall men , may be the representative church of the whole world ? though you rack and torture the 15th . and all other acts of the apostles by all the ecclesiasticall judicatories and authoritative powers which you can muster up , you will never bee able to get so much as a distinguishable eccho from them to this purpose : however , please your owne imagination ; erect as many consistorial babels as you will ; hammer out what decrees your selves think good ; and if you can , with a good conscience , tell us , wee may do well if wee observe them : but goe no farther ; since the church of jerusalem ( which you will , i beleeve , acknowledge your only president for assemblies ) did noe more ; and yet there were present there , apostles inspired men ; whereas if there be any thing else in the very best of your ecclesiasticall judicatories , as you call them , besides such infirmities a● are common to you , with any other nomber of your brethren , 't is more than all the world beleeves ; and therefore blame them not if they cannot run ●udwink'd with you into limbo , purgatorie or hell , since the way to heaven is too straight for men of implicit faith , blind zeale , orignorant devotion ( which are the best fruites your presbyterian disciplin can produce ) to light upon : and besides the manifold weighty exceptions which have been made already , and may yet bee farther multiplide , to prove that to bee no synod or ecclesiastical judicatorie in act. 15. tell mee , good sir , whether if they will make that a president ; the assembly which sits now at westminster may not according to the same grounds send their synodal decrees into germany , france , spaine , italie and other pretended christian countries , as well as they of jerusalem did into syrio , cilicia , who had noe r●presentatives in jerusalem , that we heare of , at the making of those decrees ? and by consequence , any certain nomber of men who have but confidence ●nough , and the civil sword to fight for them , ( else they will bee thought to say and do a● little to the purpose as their neighbours ) may take upon them to be an ecclesiastical judicature , the representative church , and so condemne the whole world into spirituall captivity , because their phansies tell them it is for gods glory and the churches weale it should bee so ? but suppose that antioch , syria and cilicia were willing to receive and yeeld obedience unto the decrees which were made by the church of jerusalem where there were present inspired apostles ; must this needs oblige all other churches now to do the same towards such as have no more infallibility than their brethren ? especially whether they will or no ? were not this to hang the christian libertie of the whole church militant upon the arbitrary proceedings of some few perticular congregations only ? good sir consider of it . to the exceptions which are justly alledged against the peremptorinesse of some ecclesiastical synods and assemblies which think they may parallel their own decisious with those of the apostolical church of jerusalem act. 15. which were infallibly certaine of the holy ghosts assistance , or else might possibly have erred , and consequently seduced all christians unto the end of the world , which would bee blasphemy of the greatest magnitude to imagine ; you aske wherefore may not every perticular minister say it seemeth good to the holy ghost and me ? to which i answer , that your ministers and you too , may bee rash in saying so , as you are in other matters : who can hinder you ? but must all the world bee mad or sottish to beleeve you ? because you are rash to say you know not what ? you say , that what seemeth good to the holy ghost , should likewise seeme good to all ministers ; i say so too ; but not contrariwise ? which rests on you to prove , or not require obedience as though the holy ghost were in your bosom , were at your beck : it is true , that whatsoever the church does rightly bind or loose on earth , is infallibly confirmed in heaven ; but that upon this presumption , every a s. a synod or assembly may take upon them to bind and loose , such as are not of their congregation prescribing both disciplin and doctrin unto their brethren , according to their owne imaginations ; much lesse expect that others should take their decisions to be oracles , and themselves little god almighties ; is a character of such high floane conceitednes and presumption , as since the creation was never equalized by any , except the son of the morning , lucifer himself es. 14. 12. 13. surely if god should say of these men ( as he did ironically of adam ) behold they are becom like us ; they can make new scriptures , new religions ; they are like enough to take him at his word , still soothing themselves in their fond attempts , until with adam they were excluded paradise : you think you may say it seemeth good to the holy ghost and you ; and what if i should graunt you may possibly in some sence ▪ say so unto your own heart with a good conscience ? must your conscience therefore become a rule , a yoake to other mens ? and if the blessed spirit should at any time be are witnes unto your spirit , or unto the spirit of a whole parliament and synod , what were this to the spirits of other men ? must not they waite with patience untill the blessed spirit bee pleased to visit their spirits likewise , before they can joyne with yours or the assemblies spirit ? but if the synods determination of this or that controversie should seeme good unto the holy ghost , as the churches decrees of ierusalem did ; must they therefore bee imposed upon the country , the whole world ? is not this to equalize your synodal canons with those decrees of the apostolical church of ierusalem , and so make scripture of yours as well as theirs ? is not this to adde to scripture ? nay , to alter it ? for adding to it is ipso facto altering , and it is said thou shalt not adde thereto ? deut. 4. 6. revel. 22. 18. can you or any synod say they are , or will be at any time , at their pleasure infallibly assisted by the holy ghost ? if not ; why doe you take so much upon you ? but you will say , you fast and pray ; you mean and hope well ; may not a companie of tinckers and coblers say the like ? but you are more wise , learned , noble , and therefore think it fitting that others should yeeld to your determinations ; rather than you to such as are rustick , illiterate , and obscure ; this in curtesie , may bee granted you , in part , that is , the not submitting your consciences to independents ; they seeke nothing lesse , beeing still willing to expect and pray for you with all long suffering and patience : what postumate dispensation then since ▪ the apostles leaving us , have you , not to doe the like ? they are the presbyterian doctors whose asses must passe for trumpeters , and whose geese are swans ; whose war a● must be thought better , and payde for deerer than any of their neighbours ; whatever they say must be accounted seraphical ; and mechanicks , all lay-men wave their owne reason and religion whilst they worship their's : 't is true , that jesus does tacitly commend nathaniel for beleeving in him , because he heard him only say , that hee saw him under the fig-tree ; yet withall he tels him that hee should see greater things than those ioh. 1. 50. that is , hee should see that , which would be a full and just ground of a higher degree and measure of faith in christ : in like manner , paul when he falls upon intergatories with the iewes his brethren after the flesh saying , how shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation ? he tells them withall that it was such a salvation as first began to be preached by the lord himselfe , and afterwards was confirmed unto us by them that heard the lord , god bearing witnes thereunto both with signes and wonders and with diverse miracles and gifts of the holy ghost hebr. 2. 2. 3. 4. from whence it followes , that wee may now much lesse beleeve new gospels , new doctrins which are not evident in scripture within the reach of our own capacities , and apprehensions ; or upon slender grounds , such as may possibly deceave us ; or upon any other lesse grounds than what are aboundantly able to satisfie both the strongest and weakest reasons and understandings of those from whom faith is required . it is said in pauls epistles to the ephesians that christ gave some to be apostles , some prophets , evangelists , pastours and teachers for the perfecting the saints , for the worke of the ministerie , for the edifynig of the body of christ , till we all come in the unity of the faith ; some whereof we find to have been more immediatly and largely gifted than the rest , as apostles prophets and evangelists , to whom in their rare indowm●nts and power of miracles , wee do not know any to have succeeded since the apostles dayes : but whether may wee not take the want of them as a grievous curse upon all christians with the rest of the world ever since ? whether can the gospel bee truly and throughly propagated without such infallible officers ? how can wee be assured that the gospel has beene inviolably conserved and preached unto ●● without such glorious witnesses to bare testimony thereto by signes and wonders ! how can the jewes bee certaine that they have the law and proph●ts conveyde unto them without beeing adulterated considering their severall captivities and persecutions ? who knowes whether ezra his memory might not faile him , in restoring unto them the scriptures , as is reported of him , after they were said to be almost all consumed by fire , when the chaldea●s tooke ierusalem ? sixtus senensis bibl : sanct. l. 1. ezra . pray , must their own or other mens reason be the handmaid to lead them through these laberinthes . wee see in genesis 27. that when isaack had an intension to blesse esauh ; jacob by his mother reb●ckah's counsell , having covered his hands and neck with kidskins , subtilly counterfetted himselfe to bee esauh , and so beguiled him of his blessing ▪ in the carriage whereof we see that isaack conceived it was iacob's voice , but that the hands were the hands of esauh ; whereof though he doubted , yet he suffered himselfe to beswaid that way , in regard that iacob affirmed himselfe to bee esauh ; verse 24. even so is it with multitudes of christians in many poynts of controversie , whilst the scriptures furnish us with testimonies which in some respect seeme to make for both sides ; however , in regard we cannot beleeve them both , i conceave a man may safely betake himself to that wherein he apprehends more evidence of the two ; and though it prove the wrong , yet god may accept of his indeavours and good intension , who did not blame isaack for thus blessing jacob through an errour , who yet since he had suspition of him by his voice , might have satisfyde himselfe concerning him , had he but felt the other parts of his body which were not counterfetted . paul likewise although he was a great blasphemer and persecuter 1. tim. 1. 13. act. 26. 9. 10. 11. yet he said of himselfe that hee had lived in all good conscience before god untill that day act. 23. 1. it is a very smale thing that i should bee judged of mans judgement ; i judge not my selfe , for i know nothing by my selfe 1. cor. 4. 3. 4. and rom. 14. 6. it is said hee that regardeth a day regardeth it to the lord , and hee that regardeth not the day unto the lord , he doth not regard it : hee that eateth , eateth to the lord for he giveth god thanks , and hee that eateth not , to the lord he eateth not and giveth god thanks : from all which way he gathered , that a good meaning and intention is greatly excusable before god , though it were in an erroneous way of fearing him : for all which respects the presbyterians do not only show themselves injurious in distip ●●ing , and ruling over their brethren , over whom they have no power , being freemen , free-christians equall to themselves ; but sacriledgious to gods bountifulnesse and long suffering , who like the scribes pharises hypocrites lay heavie burthens upon others , but they themselves will not put a finger to : luk. 11. 46. who streighten , if not quite dam up the way to heaven , not suffering others to enter , nor yet goe in themselves . math. 23. 13. good now let us fast or feast ; let us observe holy-dayes or not ; and so for other matters , according as gods spirit shall guide us thereunto , and not the spirit of a presbyterie , unlesse wee could see more in it than in our own . pag. 105. you say the supreame [ church ] iudicatorie may feare that if they judge any thing amisse , their judgments will not be approved , and put in execution with perticular churches ; and in all human probability they are like to be crossed : pray demur a little , and consider whether in these few lines you have not utterly demolished that mighty ( but imaginary ) babel of unlimmited authoritative jurisdiction which you had raised unto your classical presbyteries or superlative ecclesiastical assemblies ? doe you not here of your own accord acknowledge that in some cases , i. e. if they judge any thing amisse , the supreme church judioature it selfe may feare ●er judgements will not be approved and put in execution ( so much as ) in perticular congregations ? yea , and that in all humane probability they are like to be crossed ? since then you graunt your synods and highest church assemblies may judge amisse ; and that in such cases perticular churches may refuse to yeeld obedience ; will it not follow by undenyable consequence that such perticular churches must have power to examin and even judge the judgements of such assemblies according to their owne reasons and understandings ? and that whatsoever shall appeare to bee decreed or ordered amisse by such ecclesiastical assemblies , according to the light of their own reason and understanding which god has given them , and not to be submitted unto with a good conscience , ought and must not be put in execution by perticular congregations ? this is your owne doctrin sometimes though unawares ; for even on the top of the next page , 109. where you bring m. s. enquiring what should be done in case an oecumenical or general counsel erre ; you say you wil returne him answer , when hee tells you what must bee done in case the parliament should erre , or if the great sanedrin of the old testament or the councel of jerusalem had erred ; and yet you might remember to have objected thrice in this frivolous discourse of yours upon the like occasion , that quaestio non solvit qu●stionem : but do you not perceive a little spirit of perversenes in your selfe , that you can thus prevaricate ? thus play at fast and loose ? did you not just now confesse ( oh the power of truth ! that if the very supreme church judicature should judge amisse shee may feare her judgement will not be approved and put in execution by perticular congregations ? and doe you so soone boggle at the same querie afterwards ? will not this smal pittance of ingenuity reconcile you ( how fierce soever ) unto the independents ? either then recant this and such other passages ; or stand to them , and burn that confused volumne of sophistical distinctions and meere contradictions . pag. 170. 171. you say the example of the protestants in france suing for a toleration of their religion serves nothing towards the obtaining the like for independents in england : but why pray so magisteriall and peremptory ? have not the independents fought for the parliament against the cavaleers ? did they not refuse to joyn with the cavaliers in fighting against the scots ? your presbyterian disciplin had scarce been setled in scotland by civil and ecclesiastical authority , which you so much boast of in page 160. if independents had not done that for you which you were not able to do for your selves ? and doe you thus require them ? was there not the same reason for the scots some few yeares since to have submitted themselves unto the english service-booke , then adored by such an english uniformity , and sent , yea attempted to bee imposed upon them by the ecclesiastical authority of england ; as that the english and irish , two numerous and renowned nations , must now be subjugated by fire and sword unto a scotch directory ? surely if there be a god in heaven , or any conscientiousnesse on earth , it will never bee , or never long endure ; nescis quid serus vesper trabat : you say the protestants of france were compelled to idolatry and to bee actors in the damnation of their owne soules against the light of their consciences : and what if it be said the presbyterians professe and practise the same against the independents , against all that differ from them barely in opinion ? all the principles which concerne coercive discipline in , about , or for the church are common both to papists and presbyterians ? insted of arguments and reason , will you not say 't is false , foolish , fond , idle , ignorant , childish , currish , contradictorie , impertinent , non sence , nothing but wind and words of goodwin ? page 169. &c. how long will this great goliah of the presbyterians thus boast himselfe ? how long will the braying of this fowle mouth'd as . disquiet the people of god ? pack up your pedl●rs budget of such absurd distinctions abominable contradictions , unsufferable tautalogies , ( to say no worse ) and be gon , even anywhere , that we may be quit of you ; speake or write to instruction or edifying hereafter , or else hold your peace for shame of god and men : but do you not know that it shall be more tolerable for sodom and gomorrah , than for many people amongst whom christ wrought most of his miracles ? know you not that many who live and dye papists because through ignorance , ( as paul whilst he persecuted the saints 1. tim. 1. 13. whom god therefore had mercie on ) shall rise up in judgement against all protestants which know gods will and do it not ? doe you not take it to be mad doctrin of pauls when he presupposes there may bee a case when the best christians ( i say not presbyterians ) may , nay , ought never more eat flesh drinke wine , nor anything where at a brother stumbleth , is offended or made weake ? and yet if you beleeve rom. 14. 21. 1. cor , 8. 13. you may finde it evangelical , a little othergates , than such stuffe as you baptize with orthodox , and then think it pleaseth the holy ghost , ( because such men , such dust and ashes as your selfe know no better , ) that all the world , will they , nill they , must fall down and worship it : if independents say , they have no faith in communicating with your mixt multitude , and joyning in an english directory , alias a scotch common-prayer-booke ; and you notwithstanding by imprisoning or discountenancing compel them to it ; doe you not make them commit idolatrie ? are they not damned because they doubt thereof ? rom. 14. 23. can the priests in frame , the divels in hell , or presbyterians anywhere , do worse by protestants ? but you promise largely ; you say the presbyterians will not compel the independents to act against their consciences : only you will not suffer them to seduce other mens consciences : what an agrippa-like halfe christian paradox is this ? doth the truth constraine you to acknowledge that compelling independents to joyn with you in your mixt communions and stinted worship against their consciences , would amount unto idolatrie ? and may they not instruct their famelies , friends , brethren , and all such , who gaspe after a word of knowledge , or but desire to be instructed by them how to decline idolatrie , and worship god in sincerity and truth ? did not nature engrave it in the hearts of al men , that it is better to obey god than man ? did not the apostles for our clearer understanding resolve it when 't was made a question ? act 4. 19. are not all such condemned for unproffitable servants who put a candle under a bushel ? for lapping up their tallent in a napkin ? for not strengthning others after they themselves are converted ? and though you so often upbraid this as a licentious course and way , to let in all heresie and impiety ; have patience if i tell you the papists say the verie same for excluding protestantisme out of their dominions ; and neither you as profownd an as . as you take your selfe to be , nor all the presbyterians in the world , can say one tittle more than papists doe in this behalfe : now , wherein your divinity , your disciplin , your righteousnes exceeds not that of papists ; take it not so hainously , that independents who have not so learned christ , may not , dare not joyne with you : yet if upon a second consideration hereof you shall still remain head-strong , banishing all farther truth , left some heresies should creepe in therewith ; good now , do but discover to us a possibility how after the presbyterian rule , ( which , according to as . sayes the civil magistrate has power not to admit the true church , or to turne it out , though it had beene admitted and established by low . ) the roman church can ever be reformed , or the iewes converted to the gospel : concerning the churches of new-england , you say their independency is worse than heresie ; you strengthen your selfe in denying them a toleration in old-england , because they will not graunt you one in new-england , and yet you bid them begon thither and live in peace : but tell me a little ; how can they be secure in new-england from the omnipotency of the presbyterian disciplin which is as covetuous and ambitious as rome it selfe which claim 's no lesse than all the world ? ought you not to endeavour their conversion equal to your brethrens of old-england , and that as well unto your disciplin as to your doctrin ? are their soules not worth saving ? or their country not worth living in ? the soile is thought no whit inferiour , if not better then the best in old-england ; though there be not so good plundering for money and rich moveables : but why should not the soules of your new-english brethren bee as deare unto you , as those of old-england ? or though your brethren of new-england should know the way to heaven of themselves ; how can you with a quiet mind endure they should get thither without your passe , your mittimus , your peter-pence ? or why may not the old-english be thought as charitably on , or find the like favour from your over dilligent presbyerie ? but put the case you did really desire the new-english their conversion ? you approve of them in suffering no opinions to be published but their owne ? if this disciplin be strictly observed ; how can they possibly attaine to better light and knowledge ? what course will you take for their informing , for convincing them of this worse than heretical tenet as you call it , if to their's , and your church pollicy , they should lykewise attaine as sharp a civil sword as yours ? or put case that even your own most excellent doctorship were not so sound or orthodox as self conceited , which many have strong presumptions for , who are thought better able to judge thereof than as . himselfe , will you put your selfe in an impossibilitie of ever being reformed except tumultuously or illegally , both waies compulsively ? was ever any as . so dull , so stupid , so voide both of civil and christian policie ? but what shall i say unto you , since according to your theologie , nothing is so likely to prevaile with you as cudgelling ? page 172. you say that refusing to tolerate the independents will helpe to confirme the churches and people in the truth of presbyterian diciplin and doctrin ; that many men are led by authority , and take many things upon the trust of great men &c. phy as ! are you not asham'd thus to uncover the nakednesse of your churches ? to tell us and them that the presbyterian world takes up a religion and government upon trust ? and if the venerable and learned assemblie , as you stile them , should not graunt a toleration of any thing but poprie or turcisme , would not your good people whom you speake of , be as easily confirmed of the truth thereof ? surely they will , unlesse they bee wiser than their anchesters , which will not be beleeved . page 179. you ask what power hath either king or parliament to intrude and force upon the kingdome new religions or a toleration of all sects ? and say the parliament assumes no such power to it selfe : if this bee true ; how can it settle ( not to say intrude as as . does improperly and unmannerly ) the scotch presbyterian disciplin in england , more than the independency of new-english churches ? for since the churches of scotland and new england for doctrin agree in fundamentals , differ onely in disciplin , and as as . aleadges , doe persecute all opinions but their own ; how come the new-english and scots not to be both sects alike , since as . calls the apologists a sect ? but hee saies the presbyterian government is already established in england in the dutch , french , italian and spanish churches page 160. and i answer that hee may as well say the popish government was setled in england , because permitted to be made use of in in the queens chappells and so many ambassadours houses , little otherwise than was the presbyterian : but if the presbyterian government bee already established , what needs all this imprecating , this conjuring of as . yet for a farther setling of it ? but if the parliament may not , as as . saies , intrude and force upon the kingdome new religions ; and since the civil magistrate as you likewise say page 166. if he follow gods word cannot graunt a toleration without consent of the church if he judge it bee not corrupted : why doe you not then betake your selfe to the synod , forbearing to be farther troublesome unto the civil magistrate , untill it bee at leisure to talke with you for stigmatizing of it worse than mad , corrupted by bribery , or some other way , page 166. unlesse it descend unto such notions only as as . arrives to : and why , i pray , must the parliament needs tolerate all as . ' ses to think they are worse than madde , corrupted with money or some other way , if they should tolerate a new sect , you mean independents , i. e. any that but differ from one another in opinion , and such are all , as will not upon any occasion say , black is white , and white is black , or seeme to beleeve any thing else implicitely ? i know your meaning , your grand and common ( more than understood ) objection ; that there is but one true religion , but one faith , one way to heaven ; and why should wee then suffer men and women to bee of so many different waies faith's and religions ? for answer hereunto i can bee contented to graunt that there is but one true religion , one true faith and way to heaven ; but who can tell mee the precise and just precincts thereof ? what mean they by one true religion , one way , one faith ? the papists , luthrans , calvinists , all episcopal and presbyterian disciplind men generally are of this opinion ; each of them , whole nations and people , damn for the most part hand over head , all other professions but his own ; and even amongst these who by compulsion they will bee sure to make as good christians as themselves , to any mans thinking but their own , how few of them notwithstanding will they allow to get into heaven with them ? would it not be wonder if this circumference , this little continent of earth , should satisfie the vast desires of such , who seeme to think , that the heavens so infinitely more capacious , were only made for them and some few of their familiars ? o the malecontednesse of such spirits ! to say nothing of mahumetans nor any sort of pagans , no nor jewes who yet were the beloved nation of the lord , who promised to make all their enemies his owne ; to say nothing neither of papists , nor millions of christians , especially in the east which never heard more of poprie , than england had of presbyterie five yeares agoe ; ( which you may say was but a little , though since too much ) would it not be a harsh sentence for men of the classicall presbyterian-way to passe , which must send hedlong to hell all lutherans , calvanists , independents with sundry other differing protestants ? perhaps you will say though they live lutherans or independents , they may die converts , or well-willers to the presbyterian disciplin and doctrin : i answer , that this is such a may-bee , that if it come not whilst they live , i 'le passe my word 't will never happen afterward : you may as well say or think they may die jewes or papists , were you not apt to flatter your selfe , or glad to say any thing , rather than by plaine argument be made appeare as if you thought , god had first made the joyes of heaven , and in the fulnesse of time sent his son to repurchase them , for your fond opinions onely to vapour in ; but in case you doe not thus reprobate all lutherans , independents and such as differ from you in opinion , allowing them a possibilitie , even whilst they live and die lutherans or independents , to find the way to heaven ; why will you then not let them goe their own way ? what if it should seeme to you the farthest way about ? may it not prove the neerest home , according to the proverb ? i am certain it must be the surest way to them that know and apprehend no other : if then you cannot possibly decipher or chaulke out unto me exactly this only true religion and way to heaven , without imminent danger of streightning or enlarging it , do not take upon you to make enclosure of it , or compell others to leaue their owne way , unlesse you could bee infallibly assured , that were a better which you put them in , or were able to make them reraration , if it prove a worse . there are two great controversies which have set both state and church on fire , about which so many pamphlets have beene scribled , and not a few continued musing untill their heads grew addle , which yet , in my slender judgement , may be fully stated in a verie few lines only : that in the civil state , is betwixt magistrate and subject ; on the one side it is alledged , that if everie soule , the whole bodie of a people or nation must be subject unto the higher powers in all cases , whether they govern justly or tyrannically , then would it rest in the magistrates breast and power to ruin and destroy the whole nation at his pleasure : on the otherside , if the people may in some case deny subjection , it must bee in such as they apprehend themselves in imminent danger of destruction ; and then it will follow , that so often as they apprehend this imminent destruction , this necessitie ; soe often they may deny subjection , which would render the higher powers obnoxious unto the bare pretentions of the people , if they did but withall alledge their feares were reall : both these i confesse are great stumbling blocks , yet the latter , as i conceive , is to be adhered unto ; because it is a greater evil , to expose a whole nation to destruction , than a magistrate only : and lest it should be thought this tenet does expose the magistrate unto the inconstancie and violence of the people ; let such remember that magistrates are gods vice-gerents and as many times it happens that some scape better , for the present , for offending god than man but pay for it with a witnes afterwards ; soe if a people shall injuriously imploy that naturall power and might , which god has given them only for their defence , against the magistrates just commands and priviledges ; god becomes so much more engag'd to vindicate them , by how much being few in nomber , in comparison of the people , they want an arme of flesh to helpe themselves . as for the church controvesie , it may bee said in behalfe of independents , that unlesse differing and erroneous opinions bee tolerated ; the most orthodox and rectified are equally subject to bee persecuted : on the other side , presbyterians say , that the permitting differing opinions in a state , is to open a flood-gate to all manner of heresies and schysmes : what if wee did suppose these to bee the two great rocks of offence , which in some sense were no otherwise than scylla and charibdis ; one of which you could not avoide without adhering unto the other ? does it not remaine then , that wee should consider which of them is accompained with the greatest inconveniences ? the latter presupposes a possibilitie of entrance unto all heresies ; the former concludes a certainty of with-holding a great measure of truth , and even a possibility of keeping out the whole truth : now , this truth is like god himself ; even verie god himselfe , invallewable ; we may not hazard the least attom , the smalest proportion thereof , for al other possibilities or impossibilities whatsoever : what ? shall we put our selves into such a condition , that if we be in an errour it shall be impossible for us to get out of it againe , unlesse the whole civil state , the men of war , the world doe see it as clearely as our selves ? that if as yet wee have but some degrees of truth and knowledge , it shall be impossible for us to attain to greater ? that though we were in possession of the true religion , wee should bee liable to have it taken from us by everie sharper civil sword than our owne ? this is your doctrin page 13. where you say the civil mgistrate though christian has power to admit christian religion ; or when admitted to exile it afterwards ; but god keepe such presbyterian principles from farther taking root in england . but if king and parliament may not force a new religion or sect , suppose presbyterian , upon the kingdome ; much lesse can the synod which neither has , nor yet pretends , as is alleadged , to use the materiall sword ? and if for matters of religion , all power originally is in christ , as you sometimes acknowledge page 179. how can king , parliament , or synod wrest it from him ? nay , what thinke you ? is it not secondarily in the people , as well as civil power which you affirme in the same page ? and so doubtlesse is spiritual power ; unlesse you will make god to have provided mankind better of a safegard , or libertie to defend their bodies , than their soules : if then the spirituall power be so inherently in the people next under christ , as that they cannot so well renounce and part from it in many respects , by what they may of civil ; how can it be thought by any one that the king parliament or synod though never so much importun'd by a thousand such as . ses , should goe about to settle a n●w presbyterian scotch government , with an intention to force a conformity of the whole kingdome , three quarters whereof cannot , as yet be thought to submit unto it willingly , or for conscience sake ? page 180. and elsewhere , you advise the independents to quit their fat benefices ; but presbyterian know how to quit the leane benefices without your counsel : and where doe you find the independents in such fat benefices ? what if you cannot find one of them in a fat benefice ? will you not say good cause why , because the presbyterians would quickly heave them out , and get themselves ●n ? if they find any fatter than an other , and bee so liquorish ; if they regard neither flock nor the great shepheard of the flock christ jesus , but with esa●h or judas prefer 30. pence or a fat benefice before them both ; let them at least carry it more cau●elo●sly , and not ●●● skipping so , from one fat benefice or lecture unto a fatter , that all the world cry shame of them ; i need not name them , they are knowne to everie bodie but themselves . but prithee a. s , tell mee , do'st thou not intend this as a pious plot and master-peece of thine to accuse the independents of fat benefices , that they may bee provok'd to vindicate themselves by discovering who they were amongst the presbyterian rabbies that solicited so actively and dextrously , obtaining such an ordnance for tithes as all the subtle invention● of antichristian bishops could never get the like ? who they were that had more than a finger in helping sundrie ministers out of their livings partly for not paying the twentyeth part and other taxes ; and so soone as presbyterians had filld all benefices and lectures , to move , that ministers might then bee totally freed from all manner of ●essment● ; and is it not fitting it should bee so , think you ? that they should set and keepe the kingdome on ● fire , in ● desparate bloody civil warre , and yet bee totally exempted from contributing towards quenching , towards obtaining of a blessed peace ? i know these heathenish , jewish , popish notions of tythes , offerings , and 〈…〉 ons , were long since abominated ▪ and abolished amongst our scottish brethren ; and a. s. does well in not flattering the english presbyterians therein , lest independents should be farther scandaliz'd at him , who , it is well knowne , are not guilty of such si●oni● ; they 〈…〉 bargaine of the ministerie of the gospel , as if it were an unholy thing ; or themselves like so many coblers or shoe-makers to prostitute their labours , to them that proffer most ; they compel noe man to buy of them whether they will or no , much lesse at what price they themselves will , what god requires to be given for nothing , esa. 55. 1. 2 ; they force no man to pay for that he never had , as presbyterians doe such as cannot with a good conscience communicate with them in their ordinances ; as if a tayl●r or hatter should wrench your money from you though you lik'd not , would not have his wares , his service : who will , may see the bloody tenet , and iohn baptist concerning tythes more largely . pag. 181. you say the power of the ministerie , or ecclesiastical power is able and sufficient to beat down all fin spiritually : but pray tell me ; can fin be sin politically , and not be fin spiritually ? now if ecclesiasticall power can beat down sin spiritually as you acknowledge ; will it not follow , that fin so beaten down spiritually , ceases to bee sin at all either spiritually or politically , and consequently no neede of civil power to punish it ? but to be briefe , as the title promised for me ; our saviour bids us do as we would be done to ; that is , love our neighbours as our selves , on which commandment hangs the law and prophets , math. 7. 12. and 22. 39. 40. and paul tels us that love is the fulfilling of the whole law ; rom. 13 10. nay our saviour would not have us dare to aske forgivenesse of our heavenly father , otherwise , than as we forgive our brethren . math. 6. 12. 14. 15. now , amongst all sorts of transgressours , there is no one offendeth so highly , so undoubtedly against this law of loving his neighbour as himselfe ; or doing as hee would bee done to ; as he that persecutes , that but disturbs his neighbours welfare , because he differs from him in opinion , for cause of conscience though erroneous ; which i prove thus : every man hath so much of an athist in him , by how much he esteemes not the enjoyment of his conscience , above all enjoyments under heaven ; and though we have known many turne , some with more facility , others perhaps not without some difficulty , from popish opinions unto episcopal , and then from episcopal to presbyterial , according as either of them became more commodious , gainsome or fashionable ; yet , if athisme not having totally taken possession of their hearts , they began at any time to demur or scruple , according to the remnant of conscience which might be remaining in them ; it was never knowne that such were contented to have even these reliques of conscience persecuted or disquieted , howsoever absurd and heretical they might seeme to other men ; and therefore such as raise any manner of persecution against their brethren for conscience sake , which they could not be contented to have done unto themselves , unlesse they were very athists , must necessarily be the greatest offenders against this law of loving our neighbours as our selves , of any in the world : and although i am enforced at present to apprehend you in this gall of bitternesse , yet my prayers and hopes shall be , that with the apostle 1 cor. 6. 10. 11. it may be only said hereafter , that such were you once ; but you are now enlightned ; you are washed ; you are sanctify'de ; which god graunt in his good time and pleasure . twenty six difficult qvestions easily answered concerning a toleration of differing opinions . quest . 1. is it not the greatest presumption for a man to bee overswayde with his owne opinion , when others for the most part submit themselves to be governed by most voyces ? ans no : but far more presumptuous are they , who not content to injoy quietly their own opinions , proceed in compelling others to joyn with them therein , which yet may possibly bee as erroneous as other mens . q. 2. is it not the greatest hazard for men to build their faith upon their own private interpetations contrary to the decrees of synods and established lawes of kingdomes ? an. no : because broad is the gate which leadeth to destruction , and narrow is the path which leadeth to salvation ; though many bee called , few are chosen ; and every man must be saved by his own faith , not by the faith of parliaments or synods . q. 3. is it not great indiscretion to bee led away by a mans private reason and understanding contrary to the judgement and sense of many , and those perhaps the wise and learned ? an. no : because a man is to bee guided by his owne reason in all things and at all times ; and it would be a double errour , a sin against the holy ghost , not only to erre , but also to erre against his own reason and understanding . q. 4. may it not seeme singularity for some one , or a few inferiour people , to be totally governed by their own judgements and opinions , when the whole nation is uniforme ? an. no : because there is no mean betwixt beeing governed by a mans own reason , or that which is his implicitly , his ignorance . q. 5. is it not an ungodly thing to suffer men to be of any religion ? an. no : for both our saviour , his apostles and the primitive christians did the same , neither is it in the power of flesh and blood to hinder it . q. 6. is it not the most unseemly sight to see the people of one citty run scambling from their parishes to 20. conventicles where so many several doctrins are taught ? an. no : but far more monstrous and abominable in the eyes of god , for people of 20. severall opinions for feare or favour to assemble and joyn together hypocritically in one way of worship or church discipline . q. 7. but may wee not yeeld conformity of the outward man as a matter of great decencie and order in such cases which wee doe but doubt of , not certainly know to be forbidden ? an. no : because it makes us hypocrites , twofold more the children of the divel than we were before , and worse than they , who , yet unjustly , did overpresse us ro conformity . q. 8. ought we not then at least to keepe our different opinions and religion unto our selves in obedience to the civil magistrate that co●maunds it ? an. no : because it is better to obey god than man ; and christ sayes we must not feare them who can kill the body only ; bidding his disciples speake that in the light which he had told them in darknesse , and on the house tops what he had told them in the eare , affirming that he would deny whosoever should bee ashamed or deny him ; act. 4. 19. mat. 10. 27. 28. marke 8. 38. 2. tim. 2. 12. q. 9. if jesuited papists and other subtle hereticks be suffered , will they not likely seduce many unto their erroneous by-pathes ? an. though a toleration of erroneous opinions may gaine some to sathan , yet truth being therewith permitted to be published and improved , will in all probability , not only gain so many more to god ; but any one thus won to god , unto his truth , is worth thousands of those that fall from it , or rather from the seeming profession which they made thereof . 1 ioh. 2. 19. q. 10. but may not the multiplying of heresies stifle or expel the truth , like as the abounding of tares and weeds often choake the wheat , and for this cause not be permitted ? an. though it seeme so to many at the first , yet our saviour in the parable of the tares math. 13. teaches us a quite contrary doctrin , and forbids [ heresies ] the tares to bee pull'd up before [ the day of judgment ] the the harvest verse 30. 39. least the wheat [ the children of the kingdome true professours ] verse 30. 39. bee therewith rooted up . q. 11. is it not wonderful extravagant that men & women should have a latitude to yeeld obedience to no manner of disciplin or doctrin than what they themselves list ? an. no : unlesse you will have them obliged to yeeld unto whatsoever disciplin and doctrin others list , though they neither understand nor know it . q. 12. but may it not likely prove a subvertion of the civil state whilst such scrupulous people may upon all occasion pretend out of conscience to deny obedience to the civil powers ? an. no : for such as are truly conscionable in gods , though but supposed work , and seruice , are also more exact and conscientious in rendring all due obedience unto man , unto the lawes and magistrate , not only for feare , but more for coscience sake . q. 13. may not diversity of opinions cause dissentions or breach of love in a country or cyttie ? an. no : but rather the contrary , whilst the civil magistrate countenanceth all alike and each man finds his neighbour not only permitting , but in some manner assisting him out of love , in such a way to heaven as he apprehends to be the only true way . q. 14. is it not equally impossible for a church-society as for a cytie to continue long without a government ? an. yes : if you meane spirituall government with its spirituall relations ; for as a church society is spiritual ; so must bee the government in all relations and respects . q. 15. but do we not by dayly experience in all places and houses find the independents wrangling with the presbyterians about church controversies ? an. no : but rather the contrary ; for if you marke it well , you may see they are still the presbyterians who generally begin first to find fault , and pick quarrells with the independents opinions , not the independents with the presbyterians . q. 16. may not the permitting men to teach and imbrace new opinions be occasion that we quite loose old truthes ? an. no : for if all opinions be permitted , the true ones must necessarily be included . q. 17. but is it fitting then for everie man to be of what religion he will ? an. yes surely ; and far better so , than to bee of whatsoever religion an other will have him to be of , since one of them must necessarily fall out . q. 18. must we then suffer men to run headlong in the way to hell , if they have neither will nor understanding to prevent it of themselve● ? an. surely yes : wee must suffer what we cannot hinder . q 19 ▪ but may it not be hindered by hindering so many erroneous doctrins to be published , which if they never heare of they cannot long after , nor beleeve in to damn themselves ? an. n : because a mans own phansie , imagination and discourcive facul●y of themselves suggest and present unto his memory variety of opinions , though not so clearly perhaps at first ; which if it bee not graunted him freely to debate , aske counsel , judge and make choice of , his condition were worse than beasts , incapable of doing either good o evil ; and such as are carried away with every wind of novelty and false doctrin , were never sound in the true doctrin , though they might seeme so before , for want of oppertunity to show the contrary . qu. 20. if there be but one true religion , why should we suffer above one religion in a country ? a. if there be but one true religion we ought to be the more carefull how to get and keep it in the country ; not banishing any religion which in opinion of different judges may possibly be the true one , and by such as make profession of it , ( both , as wise learned and conscientious as our selves ) is proemptorily affirmed to be the only true one . q. 21. is it not a pious act to compel a companie of carelesse idle people to hear a good sermon , to do a good work whether they will or no ? an. no more pious an act , then for papists to use the like compulsion towards jewes and protestants in forcing them to heare their sermons , masse , or vespers . q. 22. yea : but though they bee thus compelled to heare good sermons at fi●st against their wills , the power and efficacy of truth is such , as that in likelihood it will win upon their affections , and work in them afterwards a desire to heare and practise them of their owne accord . an. this is not likely ; because we do not find in all the gospel , that such unwarrantable means were ever sanctifide to produce so good effect . q. 23. but have we not seen it by experience , that whilst the papists in england were made go to church , many of them were converted , and dyed protestants . an. the conversion of such papists was rather to be suspected counterfeit to save their purse ; and if it had been real at any time , we must attribute it to some private illumination , or other handy-work of god , and not to such means as are so contrary , both to the doctrin and practise of our saviour and his apostles . q. 24. may not the civil goverment interpose to punish such church-members with whom the spiritual , by reason of their refractorines cannot prevaile ? a. nothing lesse ; since the civil state or government has no more power nor virtue to make a papist turn protestant in england , than it can prevaile to make a protestant become a papist in spaine . q. 25. because papists do ill in compelling protestants to heare an idolatrons masse ; may not protestants do well to force papists to heare godly sermons ? an. a protestant sermon is as idolatrous to a papist , as a popish masse is to a protestant ; and neither of them can more judge with the understanding , than see with the eyes of the other , besides that god regards only such as serve him willingly . q. 26. but can there be any hurt in forcing refractory people to be present ●● religions orthodox assemblies , where , if they will , they may be informed of the truth ? an. yes : 1. because there can come no good thereof through want of willingnes , which god only regards , in him ▪ which i● thus compelled ; and 2. because this [ forcing ] is a doing evil that good may come thereof , which is prohibited , rom , 3. 8. finis . a vision of vnchangeable free mercy, in sending the means of grace to undeserved sinners: wherein gods uncontrollable eternall purpose, in sending, and continuing the gospel unto this nation, in the middest of oppositions and contingencies, is discovered: his distinguishing mercy, in this great work, exalted, asserted, against opposers, repiners: in a sermon preached before the honourable house of commons, april. 29. being the day of publike humiliation. whereunto is annexed, a short defensative about church-government, (with a countrey essay for the practice of church-government there) toleration and petitions about these things. / by iohn owen, minister of the gospel at coggeshall in essex. owen, john, 1616-1683. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a90296 of text r200768 in the english short title catalog (thomason e334_15 e334_16). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 174 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 31 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a90296 wing o825 thomason e334_15 thomason e334_16 estc r200768 99861428 99861428 159666 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a90296) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 159666) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 54:e334[15] or 54:e334[16]) a vision of vnchangeable free mercy, in sending the means of grace to undeserved sinners: wherein gods uncontrollable eternall purpose, in sending, and continuing the gospel unto this nation, in the middest of oppositions and contingencies, is discovered: his distinguishing mercy, in this great work, exalted, asserted, against opposers, repiners: in a sermon preached before the honourable house of commons, april. 29. being the day of publike humiliation. whereunto is annexed, a short defensative about church-government, (with a countrey essay for the practice of church-government there) toleration and petitions about these things. / by iohn owen, minister of the gospel at coggeshall in essex. owen, john, 1616-1683. 83, [1] p. printed by g.m. for philemon stephens at the signe of the gilded lion in pauls church-yard., london, : 1646. in three parts. reproduction of the original in the british library. eng church of england -government -early works to 1800. bible. -n.t. -acts xvi, 9 -sermons. sermons, english -17th century. fast-day sermons -17th century. grace (theology) -early works to 1800. church polity -early works to 1800. a90296 r200768 (thomason e334_15 e334_16). civilwar no a vision of vnchangeable free mercy, in sending the means of grace to undeserved sinners:: wherein gods uncontrollable eternall purpose, in owen, john 1646 27320 186 170 0 0 0 0 130 f the rate of 130 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the f category of texts with 100 or more defects per 10,000 words. 2007-06 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-06 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-07 john latta sampled and proofread 2008-07 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a vision of vnchangeable free mercy , in sending the means of grace to undeserved sinners : wherein gods uncontrollable eternall purpose , in sending , and continuing the gospel unto this nation , in the middest of oppositions and contingencies , is discovered : his distinguishing mercy , in this great work , exalted , asserted , against opposers , repiners : in a sermon preached before the honourable house of commons , april . 29. being the day of publike humiliation . whereunto is annexed , a short defensative about church-government , ( with a countrey essay for the practice of church-government there ) toleration and petitions about these things . by iohn owen , minister of the gospel at coggeshall in essex . london , printed by g. m. for philemon stephens at the signe of the gilded lion in pauls church-yard . 1646. die mercurii 29. april , 1646. ordered by the commons assembled in parliament , that m. ienner and sir peter wentworth do from this house give thanks to m. nalton and m. owen for the great pains they took in the sermons they preached this day , at the intreaty of this house , ( it being a day of publike humiliation ) at margarets westminster . and to desire them to print their sermons : and it is ordered that none shall presume to print their sermons , without license under their hand-writing . h. elsynge , cler. parl. d. com. i do appoint philemon stephens , and none else , to print my sermon . john owen . amplissimo senatui inclytissimo populi anglicani conventui ( ob ) prisca anglo-britannorum jura strenue & fideliter asserta : libertatem patriam ( nefarijs quorundam molitionibus paene pessundatam ) recuperatam : justitiam fortiter , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} administratam , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} in ecclesiasticis {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} dissolutam , ritus pontificios , novitios , antichristianos abolitos , privilegia plebis christianae postliminio restituta , potissimum protectionem dei o. m. his omnibus alijsque innumeris consilio , bello , domi , foras gratiose potitam , ) toto orbe jure meritissimo celeberrimo , toti huic insulae aeternâ memoriâ recolendo , viris illustribus clarissimis , sclectissimis ex ordine communium in supremacuria parliam , congregatis , concionem hanc sacram , humilem illam quidem , ipsorum tamen voto jussuque prius coram ipsis habitam , nunc luce donatam , ddc . joannes owen . a sermon preached before the honourable house of commons , on the day of their publike fast , april 29 , 1646. acts , chap. 16. ver. 11. and a vision appeared to paul in the night , there stood a man of macedonia , and prayed him , saying , come over into macedonia , and helpe us . the kingdom of jesus christ is frequently in the scripture compared to growing things ; small in the beginning and first appearance , but increasing by degrees unto glory and perfection . the shapelesse stone cut out without hands , having neither form , nor desirable beauty given unto it , becomes a great mountain , filling the whole earth , dan. 2. 35. the small vine brought out of aegypt , quickly covers the hills with her shadow , her boughs reach unto the sea , and her branches unto the rivers , psal. 80 8. the tender plant becomes as the cedars of god ; and the grain of mustard-seed to be a tree for the fowls of the air , to make their nests in the branches thereof : mountains are made plains before it , every valley is filled , and the crooked paths made straight , that it may have a passage to its appointed period ; and all this , not only , not supported by outward advantages , but in direct opposition to the combined power of this whole creation , as fallen , and in subjection to the god of this world , the head thereof . as christ was a tender plant , seemingly easie to be broken , and a root out of a dry ground , not easily flourishing , yet liveth for ever : so his people and kingdom , though as a lily among thorns , as sheep among wolves , as a turtle dove among a multitude of devourers , yet stands unshaken , at least unshivered . the main ground and foundation of all this , is laid out , ver. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , of this chapter , containing a rich discovery , how all things here below , especially such as concern the gospel and church of christ , are carried along , thorow innumerable varieties , and a world of contingencies , according to the regular motions and goings forth of a free , eternall , unchangeable decree : as all inferiour orbs , notwithstanding the excentricks and irregularities of their own inhabitants , are orderly carried about by the first mover . in the 6. verse . the planters of the gospel are forbid to preach the word in asia , ( that part of it peculiarly so called , ) and ver. 7. assaying to go with the same message into bithynia , they are crossed by the spirit , in their attempts : but in my text , are called to a place , on which their thoughts were not at all fixed : which calling , and which forbidding , were both subservient to his free determination , who worketh all things according to the counsell of his own will , ephes. 1. 11. and no doubt but in the dispensation of the gospel , thorowout the world , unto this day , there is the like conformity to be found , to the patern of gods eternall decrees : though to the messengers not made known aforehand by revelation , but discovered in the effects , by the mighty working of providence . amongst other nations , this is the day of englands visitation , the day-spring from on high , having visited this people , and the sunne of righteousnesse arising upon us , with healing in his wings , a man of england hath prevailed for assistance , and the free grace of god , hath wrought us helpe by the gospel . now in this day three things are to be done , to keep up our spirits unto this duty , of bringing down our souls by humiliation . 1. to take us off the pride of our own performances , endeavours , or any adherent worth of our own , not for your sakes do i this , saith the lord ; be it known unto you , be ye ashamed and confounded for your own wayes , o house of israel , ( o house of england , ) ezek. 36. 32. 2. to root out that atheisticall corruption , which depresses the thoughts of men , not permitting them in the highest products of providence , to look above contingencies , and secundary causes , though god hath wrought all our works for us , isa. 26. 12. and known unto him are all his works from the beginning of the world , acts 15. 18. 3. to shew that the bulke of this people are as yet in the wildernesse , far from their resting place , like sheep upon the mountains , as once israel , jer. 50. 6. as yet wanting helpe by the gospel . the two first of these will be cleared , by discovering , how that all revolutions here below , especially every thing that concerns the dispensation of the gospel and kingdom of the lord jesus , are carried along , according to the eternally-fixed purpose of god , free in it self , taking neither rise , growth , cause nor occasion , from any thing amongst the sons of men . the third , by laying open the helpelesse condition of gospel-wanting souls , with some particular application , to all which my text directly leads me . the words in generall , are the relation of a message from heaven , unto paul , to direct him in the publishing of the gospel , as to the place , and persons wherein , and to whom he was to preach : and in them you have these four things : 1. the manner of it , it was by vision , a vision appeared . 2. the time of it , in the night . 3. the bringer of it , a man of macedonia . 4. the matter of it , helpe for the macedonians , interpreted , ver. 10. to be by preaching of the gospel . a little clearing of the words will make way for observations . 1. for the manner of the delivery of this message , it was by vision : of all the wayes that god used of old , to reveal himself unto any in extraordinary manner , which were sundry and various , heb. 1. 1. there was no one so frequent , as this of vision : wherein this did properly consist , and whereby distinguished from other wayes , of the discovery of the secrets of the lord , i shall not now discusse : in generall , visions are revelations of the minde of the lord , concerning some hidden things present or future , and not otherwise to be known : and they were of two sorts ; 1. revelations meerly by word , or some other more internall species , without any outward sensible appearance , which , for the most part , was the lords way of proceeding with the prophets ; which transient light or discovery of things before unknown , they called a vision . 2. revelations , accompanied with some sensible apparitions , and that either : 1. of things , as usually among the prophets , rods and pots , wheels and trees , lamps , axes , vessels , rams , goats and the like , were presented unto them . 2. of persons , and those according to the variety of them , of three sorts ; first , of the second person of the trinity ; and this either 1. in respect of some glorious beams of his deity , as to isaiah , chap. 6. 1. with joh. 12. 41. to daniel , chap. 10. ver. 5 , 6. as afterwards to iohn , rev. 1. 13 , 14 , 15. to which you may adde the apparitions of the glory of god , not immediately designing the second person , as ezek. 1. 2. with reference to his humanity to be assumed , as to abraham , gen. 18. 1 , 2. to ioshua , chap. 5. 13 , 14 , 15 , &c. second , of angels , as unto peter , acts 12. 7. to the woman , mat. 28. 2. to iohn , rev. 22. 8 , &c. third , of men , as in my text . now the severall advancements of all these wayes in dignity and preeminence , according as they clearly make out , intellectuall verity , or according to the honour and exaltation of that whereof apparition is made , is too fruitlesse a speculation for this daies exercise . our vision is of the later sort , accompanied with a sensible appearance , and is called {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ; there be two words in the new testament signifying vision , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} and {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , coming from different verbes , but both signifying to see : some distinguish them , and say , that {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} is a vision , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , an appearance to a man awake ; {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , an appearance to a man asleep : called sometimes a dream , iob 33. 15. like that which was made to ioseph , mat. 2. 19. but this distinction will not hold : our saviour calling that vision , which his disciples had at his transfiguration , when doubtlesse they were waking , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , mat. 17. 9. so that i conceive paul had this vision waking ; & the night , is specified , as the time thereof , not to intimate his being asleep , but rather his watchfullnes , seeking counsell of god in the night which way he should apply himself , in the preaching , of the gospel : and such i conceive was that of later daies , whereby god revealed to zuinglius a strong confirmation of the doctrine of the lords supper , from exod. 12. 11. against the factours for that monstrous figment of transubstantiation . 2. for the second or time of this vision , i need say no more , then what before i intimated . 3. the bringer of the message , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , he was a man of macedonia in a vision : the lord made an appearance unto him , as of a man of macedonia ; discovering even to his bodily eyes a man , and to his minde , that he was to be conceived as a man of macedonia : this was , say some , an angel , the tutelar angel of the place , say the popish expositors , or the genius of the place , according to the phrase of the heathens , of whom they learned their daemonologie , perhaps him , or his antagonist , that not long before appeared to brutus all philippi : but these are pleasing dreams : us it may suffice , that it was the appearance of a man , the minde of paul being enlightened to apprehend him as a man of macedonia : and that with infallible assurance , such as usually accompanieth divine revelations , in them to whom they are made , as jer. 23. 28. for upon it , luke affirmeth , ver. 10. they assuredly concluded , that the lord called them into macedonia . 4. the message it self is a discovery of the want of the macedonians , and the assistance they required , which the lord was willing should be imparted unto them : their want is not expressed , but included in the assistance desired , and the person unto whom for it they were directed . had it been to help them in their estates , they should scarcely have been sent to paul , who i believe , might for the most-part say with peter , silver and gold have i none . or had it been with a complaint , that they , who from a province of greece , in a corner of europe , had on a sudden been exalted into the empire of the eastern world , were now enslaved to the roman power and oppression , they might better have gon to the parthians , then the only state in the world , formidable to the romans : paul , though a military man , yet fought not with neroe's legions , the then visible devil of the upper world , but with legions of hell , of whom the earth was now to be cleared ; it must be a soulwant , if he be entrusted with the supplying of it . and such this was , help from death , hell , satan , from the jaws of that devouring lion : of this the lord makes them here to speak , what every one in that condition ought to speak , help for the lords sake , it was a call to preach the gospel . the words being opened , we must remember what was said before of their connexion with the verses foregoing ; wherein the preachers of the gospel , are expressely hindred from above , from going to other places , and called hither . whereof no reason is assigned , but only the will of him that did imploy them : and that no other can be rendred , i am further convinced , by considering the empty conjectures of attempters . god fore-saw that they would oppose the gospel , saies our beda : so say i might he of all nations in the world , had not he determined to send his effectuall grace for the removall of that opposition : besides , he grants the means of grace to despisers , matth. 11. 21. they were not prepared for the gospel , says oecumenius : as well say i as the corinthians , whose preparations you may see , 1 cor. 6. 9 , 10 , 11. or any other nation , as we shall afterwards declare ; yet to this foolish conjecture adhere the papists and arminians . god would have those places left for to be converted by john , saies sedulius , yet the church at ephesus the cheif city of those parts was planted by paul , says ignatius , and irenaeus . he foresaw a famine to come upon those places , says origen ; from which he would deliver his own , and therefore it seems , left them to the power of the devil . more such fancies might we recount , of men , unwilling to submit to the will of god ; but upon that as the sole discriminating cause of these things we rest , and draw these three observations . 1. the rule whereby all things are dispensed here below , especially in the making out of the means of grace , is the determinate will and counsell of god : stay not in asia , go not into bithynia , but come to macedonia , even so , o father , for so , &c. 2. the sending of the gospel to any nation , place or persons rather then others , as the means of life and salvation , is of the meer free grace and good pleasure of god . stay not in asia , &c. 3. no men in the world want help , like them that want the gospel . come and help us . begin we with the first of these , the rule whereby , &c. or all events and effects , especially concerning the propagation of the gospel , and the church of christ , are in their greatest variety , regulated by the eternall purpose and counsell of god : all things below in their events , are but the wax , whereon the eternall seal of his purpose , hath left its own impression , and they every way answer unto it . it is not my minde to extend this to the generality of things in the world , nor to shew how the creature , can by no means deviate from that eternall rule of providence whereby it is guided , no more then an arrow can avoid the mark , after it hath received the impression of an unerring hand , or well-ordered wheels not turne , according to the motion given them by the master spring , or the wheels in ezekiels vision move irregularly to the spirit of life that was in them . nor yet secondly , how that , on the other side , doth no way prejudice the liberty of second causes , in their actions agreeable to the natures they are indued withall . he who made and preserves the fire , yet hinders not , but that it should burne , or act necessarily agreeable to its nature ; by his making , preserving and guiding of men , hindreth not , yea effectually causeth , that they work freely , agreeable to their nature . nor yet thirdly , to clear up what a straight line runs thorow all the darknes , confusion and disorder in the world , how absolutely , in respect of the first fountain , and last tendance of things , there is neither deformity , fault , nor deviation , every thing that is amisse , consisting in the transgression of a morall rule , which is the sin of the creature , the first cause being free : as he that causeth a lame man to goe , is the cause of his going , but not of his going lame : or the sun exhaling a smell from the kennell , is the cause of the smell , but not of its noisomnesse , for from a garden his beams raise a sweet savour : nothing is amisse but what goeth off from its own rule , which he cannot do , who will do all his pleasure , and knows no other rule . but omitting these things , i shall tie my discourse to that which i cheifly aimed at in my proposition , viz. to discover how the great variety which we see in the dispensation of the means of grace , proceedeth from , and is regulated by some eternall purpose of god , unfolded in his word . to make out this , we must lay down three things . 1. the wonderfull variety in dispensing of the outward means of salvation , in respect of them , unto whom they were granted , used by the lord since the fall : i say , since the fall , for the grace of preserving from sin , and conti●●ing with god , had been generall , universally extended to every creature , but for the grace of rising from sin , and coming again unto god , that is made exceeding various , by some distinguishing purpose . 2. that this outward dispensation being presupposed , yet in effectuall working upon particular persons , there is no lesse variety , for he hath mercy on whom he will have mercy . 3. discover the rules of this whole administration . 1. for the first , the promise was at first made unto adam , and by him doubtlesse conveied to his issue ; and preached to the severall generations , which his eyes beheld , proceeding from his own loyns : but yet by the wickednes of the old world , all flesh corrupting their waies , we may easily collect , that the knowledge of it quickly departed from the most : sin banishing the love of god from their hearts , hindred the knowledge of god from continuing in their mindes . 2. after many revivings , by visions , revelations , and covenants , it was at length called in from the wide world , and wholly restrained to the house , family and seed of abraham : with whom alone , all the means of grace continued , for thrice fourteen generations ; they alone were in goshen , and all the world besides in thick darknes : the dew of heaven was on them as the fleece , when else all the earth was dry . god shewed his word unto jacob , his statutes and judgements unto israel , he hath not dealt so with any nation , psal. 141. 19 , 20. the prerogative of the jews was cheifly in this , that to them were committed the oracles of god , rom. 3. to them pertained the adoption , and the glory , the covenants and the giving of the law , the service of god and the promises , rom. 9. 4. 3. but when the fulnes of time came , the son of god being sent in the likenes of sinfull flesh , he drew all men unto him : and god , who had before winked at the time of their ignorance , then called them every where to repent : commanding the gospel to be preached , to the universality of reasonable creatures , and the way of salvation to be proclaimed unto all ; upon which , in few years the sound of the gospel went out into all nations , and the sun of righteousnes displayed his beams upon the habitable parts of the earth . 4. but yet once more this light , by satan and his agents , persecutours and seducers , is almost extinguished , as was foretold , 2 thes. 2. remaining but in few places , and burning dim where it was , the kingdom of the beast being full of darknes , revel. 16. 10. yet god again raiseth up reformers , and by them kindles a light , we hope , never to be put out . but alas , what a spot of ground doth this shine on , in comparison of the former vast extents and bounds of the christian world . now is all this variety , think you , to be ascribed unto chance , as the philosopher thought the world was made by a casuall concurrence of atomes ? or hath the idol free-will , with the new goddesse contingency , ruled in these dispensations ? truly neither the one nor the other , no more then the fly raised the dust , by sitting on the chariot wheel ; but all these things have come to passe , according to a certain unerring rule , given them by gods determinate purpose and counsell . secondly , presupposing this variety in the outward means , how is it that thereupon , one is taken , another left ? the promise is made known to cain and abel ; one the first murtherer , the other the first martyr ; jacob and esau , had the same outward advantages , but the one becomes israel , the other edom , the one inherits the promises , the other sels his right for a messe of pottage : at the preaching of our saviour , some believed , some blasphemed ; some said he was a good man , others said , nay , but he deceiveth the people : have we not the word in its power this day , and do we not see the like various effects , some continuing in impenitency , others in sincerity closing with jesus christ ? now what shall we say to these things ? what guides these wheels ? who thus stears his word for the good of souls ? why this also , as i said before , is from some peculiarly distinguishing purpose of the will of god . to open the third thing proposed , i shall shew , first , that all this variety is according to gods determinate purpose , and answereth thereunto ; secondly , the particular purposes from whence this variety proceedeth . 1. ephes. 1. 11. he worketh all things according to the counsell of his own will : as man may be said to erect a fabrick , according to the counsell of his will , when he frameth it before in his minde , and maketh all things in event , answer his preconceived platform ; all things , ( especially {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , all those things , of which the apostle there treateth , gospel-things ) have their futurition , and manner of being , from his eternall purpose : whence also is the idea in the minde of god , of all things with their circumstances , that shall be : that is the first mover , continuing it self immoveable : giving to every thing a regular motion , according to the impression which from that it doth receive : for known unto him are all his works from the beginning of the world , act. 15. 18. if any attendants of actions , might free and exempt them , from the regular dependance we insist upon , they must be either contingency or sin ; but yet for both these , we have , besides generall rules , clear particular instances : what seems more contingent and casuall , then the unadvised slaying of a man , with the fall of the head of an axe from the helve , as a man was cutting wood by the way side ? deut. 19. 5. yet god assumes this as his own work , exod. 23. 13. the same may be said of free agents , and their actions : and for the other , see act. 4. 27 , 28. in the crucifying of the sonne of gods love , all things came to passe according as his counsell had before determined that it should be done . now how in the one of these liberty is not abridged , the nature of things not changed in the other , sinne is not countenanced , belongs not to this discourse : the counsell of the lord then standeth for ever , and the thoughts of his heart are unto all generations , psal. 33. 12. his counsell standeth , and he will do all his pleasure , isa. 46. 10. for he is the lord , and he changeth not , mal. 3. 6. with him is neither variablenes nor shadow of turning , james 1. 17. all things that are , come to passe in that unchangeable method , which he hath laid them down from all eternity . 2. let us look peculiarly upon the purposes according to which the dispensations of the gospel , both in sending , and withholding it do proceed . 1. for the not sending of the means of grace unto any people , whereby they hear not the joyfull sound of the gospel , but have in all ages followed dumb idols , as many doe unto this day . in this chapter of which we treat , the gospel is forbidden to be preached in asia and bithynia , which restraint the lord by his providence , as yet continues to many parts of the world : now the purpose from whence this proceedeth , and whereby it is regulated , you have rom. 9. 22. what if god willing to shew his wrath , and to make his power known , endured with much long suffering the vessels of his wrath fitted to destruction , compared with matth. 11. 25 , 26. thou hast hid these things from the prudent and wise , even so , o father , for so it seemed good before thee : and with acts 14. 16. he suffered all nations to walk in their own ways : now gods not sending the truth , hath the same designe and aim with his sending , the efficacy of errour , viz. that they all may be damned , who have it not : there being no other name under heaven , whereby they may be saved , but only that which is not revealed unto them : god in the mean time , being no more the cause of their sins , for which they incurre damnation , then the sun is the cause of cold and darknes , which follow the absence thereof : or he is the cause of a mans imprisonment for debt , who will not pay his debt for him , though he be no-way obliged so to doe : so then the not sending of the gospel to any people , is an act regulated by that eternall purpose of god , whereby he determineth to advance the glory of his justice , by permitting some men to sin , to continue in their sin , and for sin to send them to their own place ; as a kings not sending a pardon to condemned malefactors , is an issue of his purpose , that they shall die for their faults . when you see the gospel strangely , and thorow wonderfull varieties , and unexpected providences , carried away from a people , know , that the spirit which moves in those wheels , is that purpose of god which we have recounted . 2. to some people , to some nations , the gospel is sent , god calls them to repentance and acknowledgement of the truth , as in my text , macedonia : and england the day wherein we breath . now there is in this a two-fold aim : 1. peculiar towards some in their conversion ; 2. generall towards all for conviction , and therefore it is acted according to a two-fold purpose , which carries it along , and is fulfilled thereby . first , his purpose of saving some in and by iesus christ , effectually to bring them unto himself , for the praise of his glorious grace : upon whomsoever the seal of the lord is stamped , that god knows them and ownes them as his , to them he will cause his gospel to be revealed . acts 18. 10. paul is commanded to abide at corinth , and to preach there , because god had much people in that city : though the devil had them in present possession , yet they were gods in his eternall counsel . and such as these they were , for whose sake the man of macedonia is sent on his message . have you never seen the gospel hover about a nation , now and then about to settle , and anon scared and upon wing again , yet working thorow difficulties , making plains of mountains , and filling valleys , overthrowing armies , putting aliens to flight , and at length taking firm root like the cedars of god ? truly if you have not , you are strangers to the place wherein you live . now what is all this , but the working of the purpose of god to attain its proposed end , of gathering his saints to himself . in effectuall working of grace also , for conversion and salvation , whence do you thinke it takes its rule and determination , in respect of particular objects , that it should be directed to iohn , not iudas ; simon peter , not simon magus ? why only from this discriminating counsel of god from eternity , to bring the one , and not the other to himself by christ , acts 2. 47. the lord added to the church such as should be saved . the purpose of saving , is the rule of adding to the church of beleevers . and acts 13. 48. as many beleeved as were ordained to eternall life . their fore-ordaining to life eternall , gives them right to faith and belief . the purpose of gods election is the rule of dispensing saving grace . secondly , his purpose of leaving some inexcusable in their sins , for the further manifestation of his glorious justice , is the rule of dispensing the word unto them : did you never see the gospel sent or continued to an unthankefull people , bringing forth no fruits meet for it ? wherefore it is so sent , see isa. 6. 9 , 10. which prophecie you have fulfilled , ioh. 12. 41 , 42. in men described , iude 4. and 1 pet. 2. 8. but here we must strike sail , the waves swell , and it is no easie task to sail in this gulfe , the righteousnesse of god is a great mountain , ( easie to be seen ) but his judgements like the great deep , ( who can search into the bottom thereof ? ) psal. 36. 6. and so i hope ▪ i have discovered , how all things here below , concerning the promulgation of the gospel , are , in their greatest variety , straightly regulated by the eternall purposes and counsel of god . the vses of it follow . to discover whence it is , that the worke of reforming the worship of god , and setling the almost departing gospel , hath so powerfully been carried along in this nation : that a beautifull fabrick is seen to arise in the middest of all oppositions , with the confusion of axes and hammers sounding about it : though the builders have been forced ofttimes , not only with one hand , but with both to hold the weapons of warre : that although the wheels of our chariots have been knocked off , and they driven heavily , yet the regular motions of the superiour wheels of providence , have carried on the designe , towards the resting place aimed at ; that the ship hath been directed to the port , though the storm had quite pusled the pilots and mariners ; even from hence , that all this great variety , was but to worke out one certain fore-appointed end , proceeding in the tracts and paths , which were traced out for it from eternity ; which though they have seemed to us a maze or labyrinth , such a world of contingencies and various chances hath the worke passed thorow ; yet indeed all the passages thereof have been regular and straight , answering the platform laid down for the whole in the counsell of god . daniel , chap. 9. makes his supplication for the restauration of ierusalem , ver. 23. an angel is sent to tell him , that at the beginning of his supplication the commandment came forth , viz. that it should be accomplished ; it was before determined , and is now set on worke : but yet what mountains of opposition , what hinderances lay in the way ? cyrus must come to the crown , by the death or slaughter of darius ; his heart be moved to send some to the worke ; in a short time cyrus is cut off ; now difficulties arise from the following kings : what their flattering counsellours , what the malignant nations about them conspired , the books of nehemiah and ezra sufficiently declare . whence , ver. 25. the angel tells daniel , that from the commandment , to restore and build ierusalem , unto messia the prince , shall be 7 weeks , and 62 weeks , the street shall be built again , and the wall in troublesome times : that is , it shall be 7 weeks to the finishing of ierusalem , and thence to messia the prince , 62 weeks ; 7 weeks , that is , 49 years , for so much it was * , from the decree of cyrus , to the finishing of the wall by nehemiah : of which time the temple , as the jews affirmed , was all but 3 yeers in building , ioh. 2. 20. during which space , how often did the hearts of the people of god faint in their troubles , as though they should never have seen an end , and therefore ever and anon were ready to give over , as hag. 1. 2. but yet ye see the decree was fixed , and all those varieties , did but orderly worke in an exact method , for the glorious accomplishment of it . englands troubles , have not yet endured above half the odd yeers of those reformers task , yet , good god , how short breathed are men ! what fainting is there ? what repining , what grudging against the waies of the lord ? but , let me tell you , that as the water in the stream will not go higher then the head of the fountain , no more will the work● in hand , be carried one step higher , or beyond the aim of its fountain , the counsel of god , from whence it hath its rise : and yet as a river will break thorow all oppositions , and swell to the height of mountains , to go to the sea , from whence it came ; so will the stream of the gospel , when it comes out from god , break down all mountains of opposition , and not be hindred from resting in its appointed place . it were an easie thing to recall their mindes , to some trembling periods of time , when there was trembling in our armies , and trembling in our counsels , trembling to be ashamed , to be repented of , trembling in the city and in the countrey , and men were almost at their wits end for the sorrows and fears of those dayes : and yet we see how the unchangeable purpose of god , hath wrought strongly thorow all these straits , from one end to another , that nothing might fall to the ground , of what he had determined . if a man in those daies had gone about to perswade us , that all our pressures were good omens , that they all wrought together for our good , we could have been ready to cry with the woman , who when she had recount●d her griefs ●o the physicians and he still replied , they were good signes , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , good signes have undone me , these good signes will be our ruin ; yet behold ( we hope ) the contrary . our day hath been like that mentioned , zech. 14. 6 , 7. a day whose light is neither clear nor dark , a day known only to the lord , seeming to us to be neither day nor night : but god knew all this while that it was a day , he saw how it all wrought for the appointed end : and in the evening , in the close , it will be light , so light as to be to us discernable . in the mean time , we are like unskilfull men , going to the house of some curious artist , so long as he is about his worke , despise it as confused ; but when it is finished , admire it as excellent : whilest the passages of providence are on us , all is confusion , but when the fabrick is reared , glorious . learn to look upon the wisedom of god , in carrying all things , thorow this wonderfull variety , exact●y to answer his own eternall purpose : ●uffering so many mountains to lie in the way of reforming his churches , and setling the gospel , that his spirit may have the glory , and his people the comfort in their removall . it is an high and noble contemplation , to consider the purposes of god , so far as by the event revealed , and to see what impressions his wisedom and power do leave upon things accomplished here below , to read in them a temporary history of his eternall counsels . some men may deem it strange , that his determinate will , which gives rule to these things , and could in a word have reached its own appointment , should carry his people so many journies in the wildernesse , and keep u● thus long in so low estate ▪ i say , not to speak of his own glory , which hath sparkled forth of this flinty opposition , there be divers things , things of light , for our good , which he hath brought forth out of all that darkenesse , wherewith we have been overclouded : take a few instances . 1. if there had been no difficulties , there had been no deliverances : and did we never finde our hearts so inlarged towards god upon such advantages , as to say , well , this daies temper of spirit , was cheaply purchased by yesterdaies anguish and fear ? that was but a being sick at sea . 2. had there been no tempests and storms , we had not made out for shelter : did ye never run to a tree for shelter in a storm , and finde fruit which ye expected not ? did ye never go to god for safegard in these times , driven by outward stormes , and there finde unexpected fruit , the peaceable fruit of righteousnesse , that made you say , happy tempest , which cast me into such an harbour ? it was a storm that occasioned the discovery of the golden mines of india : hath not a storm driven some to the discovery of the richer mines of the love of god in christ ? 3. had not esau come against him , with 400 men , jacob had not been called israel ; he had not been put to it , to try his strength with god , and so to prevail . who would not purchase with the greatest distresse that heavenly comfort , which is in the return of prayers ? the strength of gods jacobs in this kingdom , had not been known , if the esaus had not come against them . some say , this war hath made a discovery of englands strength , what it is able to do . i thinke so also , not what armies it can raise against men , but with what armies of prayers and tears it is able to deal with god . had not the brethren strove in the wombe , rebekah had not asked , why am i thus ? nor received that answer , the elder shall serve the younger : had not two sorts of people strugled in the wombe of this kingdom , we had not sought , nor received such gracious answers . thus do all the various motions of the lower wheels , serve for our good , and exactly answer the impression they receive from the master spring , the eternall purpose of god . of this hitherto . the sending of the gospel to any one nation , rather then another , as the means of life and salvation , is of the meer free grace and good pleasure of god . now before i come to make out the absolute independency and freedom of this distinguishing mercy , i shall premise three things . first , that the not sending of the gospel to any person or people , is of gods meer good pleasure , and not of any peculiar distinguishing demerit in that person or people . no man or nation doth majorem ponere obicem , lay more or greater obsta●les against the gospel then another . there is nothing imaginable to lay a block in the passage thereof , but only sin : now these sins , are , or may be , of two sorts ; either first , against the gospel it self , which may possibly hinder the receiving of the gospel , but not the sending of it , which it presupposeth . secondly , against the covenant they are under , and the light they are guided by , before the beams of the gospel shine upon them : now in these , generally all are equall , all having sinned and come short of the glory of god : and in particular sins against the law and light of nature , no nation have gone farther then they which were soonest enlightned with the word , as afterwards will appear : so that the sole cause of this , is the good pleasure of god , as our saviour affirmeth , mat. 11. 25 , 26. secondly , that sins against the covenant of works , which men are und●r , before the gospel comes unto them , cannot have any generall demerit , that the means of life and salvation by free grace should not be imparted to them . it is true , all nations have deserved to be turned into hell , and a people that have had the truth , and detained it in ungodlinesse , deserve to be deprived of it . the first , by vertue of the sanction of the first broken covenant : the other , by sinning against that , which they had of the second ; but that men in a fallen condition , and not able to rise , should hereby deserve not to be helped up , needeth some distinction to clear it . there is then a two-foold demerit and indignity : one meerly negative , or a not deserving to have good done unto us : the other positive , deserving that good should not be done unto us . the first of these , is found in all the world , in respect of the dispensation of the gospel : if the lord should bestow it only on those who do not , not deserve it , he must for ever keep● it closed up in the eternall treasure of his his own bosom . the second is found directly in none , in respect of that peculiar way which is discovered in the gospel , because they had not sinned against it : which rightly considered , gives no small lustre to the freedom of grace . thirdly , that there is a right in the gospel , and a fitnesse in that gracious dispensation , to be made known to all people in the world ; that no singular portion of the earth should be any longer an holy land , or any mountain of the world lift up its head above its fellows . and this right hath a double foundation . first , the infinite value and worth of the bloud of christ , giving fulnesse and fitnesse to the promises founded thereon , to be propounded to all man-kinde , for through his bloud , remission of sins is preached to whosoever beleeves on him , acts 10. 43. to every creature , mat. 16. 15. god would have a price of that infinite value for sin , laid down , as might justly give advantage , to proclaim a pardon indifinitely to all that will come in , and accept of it , there being in it no defect at all , ( though intentionally only a ransom for some ) but that by it , the world might know that he had done whatsoever the father commanded him , jo. 14. 31. secondly , in that ●●conomy and dispensation of the grace of the new covenant , breaking forth in these later daies , whereby all externall distinction , of places and ●ersons , people and nations being removed , jesus christ taketh all nations to be his inheritance , dispensing to all men the grace of the gospel , bringing salvation , as seemeth best to him : tit. 2. 11 , 12. for being lifted up , he drew all unto him , having redeemed us with his bloud , out of every kinred and tongue , people and nation , apoc. 5. 9. and on these two grounds it is , that the gospel hath in it self a right and fitnesse , to be preached to all , even as many as the lord our god shall call . these things being premised , i come to the proof of the assertion . deut. 7. 7 , 8. moses is very carefull in sundry places to get this to take an impression upon their spirits , that it was meer free grace that exalted them into that condition and dignity wherein they stood , by their approach unto god , in the enjoyment of his ordinances : in this most cleerly rendring the cause of gods love in chusing them , mentioned , ver. 7. to be only his love , ver. 8. his love towards them is the cause of his love , his free love eternally determining , of his free love actually conferring those distinguishing mercies upon them : it was not for their righteousnesse , for they were a stiffnecked people , d●ut. 6 6. mat. 11. 25 ▪ 26. our saviour laying both these things together , the hiding of the mysteries of salvation from some , and revealing them to others , renders the same reason and supreme cause of both , of which no account can be rendred , only the good pleasure of god . i thanke thee , father : and if any will proceed higher , and say , where is the justice of this , that men equally obnoxious , should be thus unequally accepted ? we say with paul , that he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy , and whom he will he hardneth , and who art thou , o man , that disputest against god ? si tu es homo , & ego homo , audtamus dicentem , o homo , tu quis : to send a pardon to some that are condemned , suffering the rest to suffer , hath no injustice . if this will not satisfie , let us say with the same apostle , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , rom. 11. 33. o the depth of the , &c. yea so far is it from truth , that god should dispense , and grant his word and means of grace , by any other rule , or upon any other motive then his own will and good pleasure , that we finde in the scripture the direct contrary to what we would suppose , even , mercy shewed to the more unworthy , and the more worthy passed by , reckoning worthinesse and unworthinesse by lesse or greater sin , with lesse or more endeavours . christ preaches to chorazin and bethsaida which would not repent , and at the same time denies the word to tyre and zidon , which would have gotten on sackcloth and ashes , when the other continued delicate despisers , mat. 11. 21. ezekiel is sent to them that would not hear him , passing by them that would have hearkened , chap. 3. 5. which is most clear , rom. 9. 30 , 31. the gentiles which followed not after righteousnesse , have attained to righteousnesse , even the righteousnesse , of faith ; but israel which followed after the law of righteousnesse , have not attained to it . if in the dispensation of the gospel , the lord had had any respect to the desert of people , corinth that famous place of sinning , had not so soon enjoyed it , the people whereof , for worship , were led away with dumbe idols , 2 cor. 12. 2. and for their lives , ye have them drawn to the life , 1 cor. 6. 9 , 10 , 11. fornicatours , idolaters , adulterers , effeminate , abusers of themselves with man-kinde , thieves , covetous , drunkards , revilers , extortioners , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , which is to be repeated , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , some of you were fornicatours , some idolaters , but ye are sanctified : seem not these to the eye of flesh goodly qualifications — for the gospel of jesus christ ? had these men been dealt withall , according as they had disposed themselves , not fitter fuell for hell could the justice of god require : but yet ye see , to these the gospel comes , which the first , a light shines to them that sit in darknesse and in the shadow of death . if god send or grant the gospel , which is the means of grace , upon any other ground , but his meer good pleasure ; then it must be an act of remunerative justice : now there is no such justice in god towards the creature , but what is founded upon some preceding covenant , or with promise of god to the creature , which is the only foundation of all relation between god and man , but only those that attend creation and sovereignty . now what promise do you finde made to , or covenant with a people , as yet without the gospel : i mean conditionall promises , inferring any good to be bestowed on any required performance on their part ? free , absolute promises there are , innumerable , that light should shine to them that were in darkenesse , and those to be called gods people which were not his people ; but such as depend on any condition on their part to be fulfilled , we finde none . god bargains not with the creature about the gospel knowing how unable he is to be merchant for such pearls . if a man had all that goodnesse which may be found in man , without jesus christ , they would not in the least measure procure a discovery of him . i deny not but god may , and perhaps sometimes doth reveal himself to some in a peculiar and extraordinary manner . whereunto tends that story in aquinas , of a corps taken up in the daies of constantine and irene , with a plate of gold , and this inscription in it , christus nascetur ex virgine , ego credo in illum , o sol sub irenae & constantini temporibus iterum me videbis . but that this should be regular unto men living , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , in justin martyrs phrase , or using their naturals aright , ( which is impossible they should , the right use of naturals depending on supernaturals ) is wide from the word . if there be any outward motive of granting the gospel unto any , it is some acceptable performances of theirs , holding up to the rule and will of god : now this will and rule having no saving revelation but by the gospel , which should thus be procured by acts agreeable unto it , makes up a flat contradiction , supposing the revelation of the gospel , before it be revealed ; doubtlesse according to all rules of justice to us made known , it is an easier thing , to d●serve heaven by obedience , now under the covenant of works , then being under that covenant , to do any thing that might cause a new way of salvation , such as the gospel is , to be revealed . with some observations i descend to application . first , there is the same reason of continuing the gospel unto a people , as of sending it ; especially if oppositions rise high , apt and able in them●elves for its removall : never nation as yet enjoyed the word , that deserved the continuance of the word . god hath alwaies something agaist a people , to make the continuing of his grace , to be of grace , the not removing of his love , to be meerly of love , and the preaching of the gospel , to be a mercy of the gospel , free and undeserved . though there be worke , and labour , and patience for christs sake at ephesus , yet there is somewhat against ephesus , rev. 2. 4 , 5. for which he might justly remove his candlestick ; and if he doth it not , it is of the same mercy that first set it there . as god layes out goodnesse and grace in the entrance , so patience , long-suffering and firebearance in the continuance ; he bears with our manners , whilst we grieve his spirit . look upon the face of this kingdom , and view the body of the people , thinke of the profanenes , vill●ny , trampleing upon the bloud of jesus , ignorance , contempt of god and his waies , despising his ordinances , reviling his servants , branding and defaming the power of godlines , persecuting and tearing one another , and yet hear the joifull sound of the word in every corner ; and you will quickly conclude , that you see a great fight of gods love against our sins , and not of our goodnes for his love . secondly , there is the same reason of the reformation and the doctrine of the gospel corrupted with errour , and of the worship of god , collapsed with superstition , as of the first implantation of the gospel : god in his just judgement of late ages , had sent upon the western world the effi●acy of errour , that they should beleeve lies , because they received not the love of the truth , as he fore-told , 2 thes. 2. now whence is it , that we see some of the nations thereof as yet suffered to walke in their own waies , others called to repentance , some wildernesses turned into green pastures for the flock of god , and some places made barren wildernesses for the wickednesse of them that dwell therein ? how comes it , that this iland glories in a reformation , and spain sits still in darknes ? is it because we were better then they ? or lesse engaged in antichristian delusions ? doubtlesse no : no nation in the world drank deeper of that cup of abomination ; it was a proverbiall speech amongst all , england was our good asse ( a beast of burthen ) for ( antichrist whom they called ) the pope : nothing but the good pleasure of god and christ freely comming to refine us , mal. 3. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4. caused this distinction . though men can do nothing towards the procuring of the gospel , yet men may do much for the expulsion of the gospel : if the husbandmen prove idle or self-seekers , the vineyard will be let to others ; and if the people love darknesse more then light , the candlestick will be removed ; let england beware . now this men may do , either upon the first entrance of the gospel , or after some continuance of it : the gospel spreading it self over the earth , findes entertainment , like that of mens seeking plantations amongst barbarous nations , sometimes kept out with hideous outcries , at the shore , sometimes suffered to enter with admiration , and a little after violently assaulted . in the first way , how do we finde the jews , putting far from them the word of life , and rejecting the counsel of god at its first entrance , calling for night at the rising of the sun ? hence , acts 13. 41. paul concludes his sermon to them , with , hear , ye despisers , wonder and perish : and ver. 46. it was necessary the word should be preached to them , but seeing they judged themselves unworthy , they were forsaken : and ver. 51. they shake off the dust of their feet against them , a common symbol in those daies , of the highest indignation and deepest curse : the like stubbornes we finde in them , acts 28. whereupon the apostle wholly turned himself to the gentiles , ver. 28. how many nations of europe , at the beginning of the reformation , rejected the gospel of god , and procured christ , with the gadarens , to depart as soon as he was extred , will be found at the last day , written with the bloud of the martyrs of jesus , that suffered amongst them ? secondly , after some continuance ; so the church of laodicea , having for a while enjoyed the word , fell into such a tepid condition , so little moved with that fire that christ came to send upon the earth , rev. 3. 15 , 16. that the lord was even sick and weary with bearing them . the church of rome , famous at the first , yet quickly , by the advantage of outward supportments and glorious phansies , became head of that fatall rebellion against jesus christ , which spread it self over most of the churches in the world ; god hereupon . sending upon them the efficacy of errour to beleeve a lie , that they all might be damned that beleeved not the truth , but had pleasure in unrighteousnesse , 2 thes. 2. suffering them to det●in the empty names of church and gospel , which because they usurpe , only for their advant●ge here , to appear glorious , the lord will use for the advancing of his justice hereafter , to shew them inexcusable . o lord , how was england of late by thy mercy delivered from this snare ? a captain being chosen for the return of this people into egypt : on how hath thy grace fought against our backsliding ? and let none seek to extenuate this mercy , by catalogues of errours still amongst us , there is more danger of an apostasy against christ , and rebellion against the truth , in one babylonish errour , owned by men , pretending to power and jurisdiction over others , then in five hundred , scattered amongst inconsiderable disunited individuals : i would to god , we could all speake , and think the s●me things , that we were all of one minde , even in the most minutulous differences that are now amongst us ; but yet the truth is , the kingdom of jesus christ never shakes amongst a people , untill men pretending to act , with a combined mixed power , of heaven and earth , unto which all sheaves must bow or be threshed , doe by vertue of this trust , set up and impose things or opinions deviating from the rule , as it was in the papacy , errours owned by mixed associations . civill and ecclesiasticall are for the most part incurable , be they never so absurd and foolish : of which the lutheran ubiquities and consubstantiation are a tremendous example : these things being presupposed . let no flesh glory in themselves , but let every mouth be stopped , for we have all sinned , and come short of the glory of god . who hath made the possessors of the gospel to diff●r from others ? or what have they that they have not received ? 1 cor. 4. 7. why are these things hidden from the great and wise of the world , and revealed to babes and children , but because , o father , so it pleased thee ? mat. 11. 26. he hath mercy on whom he will have mercy , and whom he will he hardeneth , rom. 9. ah lord , if the glory and pomp of the world might prevail with thee to send thy gospel , it would supply the room of the cursed alchoran , and spread it self in the palaces of that strong lion of the east , who sets his throne upon the necks of kings ; but alas , jesus christ is not there . if wisedom , learning , pretended gravity , counterfeit holinesse , reall pollicy were of any value in thine eies , to procure the word of life , it would be as free and glorious at rome as ever ; but alas , antichrist hath his throne there , jesus christ is not there . if will-worship and humilities , neglect of the body , macerations , superstitions , beads , and vainly repeated praiers , had any efficacy before the lord , the gospel perhaps might be in the cells of some recluses and monks ; but alas , jesus christ is not there . if morall vertues , to an amazement , exact civill honesty and justice , that soul of humane society , could have prevailed ought , the heathen worthies in the daies of old , had had the promises ; but alas , iesus christ was farre away . now if all these be passed by , to whom is the report of the lord made known ? to whom is his arm revealed ? why ! to an handfull of poor sinners amongst the nations formerly counted feirce and barbarous . and what shall we say to these things ? o {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , o the depth , &c. let england consider with fear and trembling the dispensation that it is now under , i say , with fear and trembling : for this day is the lords day , wherein he will purge us or burne us , according as we shall be found silver or drosse : it is our day , wherein we must mend or end : let us look to the rock from whence we were hewed , and the hole of the pit from whence we were digged ; was not our father an amorite , and our mother an hittite ? are we not the posterity of idolatrous progenitors ? of those who worshipped them who by nature were no god● ? how often also hath this land forfeited the gospel ? god having taken it twice away , who is not forward to seize upon the forfeiture . in the very morning of the gospel , the sun of righteousnes shone upon this land , and they say the first potentate on the earth , that owned it , was in britain : but as it was here soon professed , so it was here soon abused . that part of this isle which is called england , being the first place , i read of , which was totally bereaved of the gospel ; the sword of the then pagan saxons fattening the land with the blood of the christian inhabitants ; and in the close wholly subverting the worship of god . long it was not ere this cloud was blown over , and those men who had been instruments to root out others , submitted their own necks to the yoke of the lord , and under exceeding variety in civill affairs , enjoyed the word of grace : untill by insensible degrees , like summer unto winter , or light unto darknes , it gave place to antichristian superstition , and left the land in little lesse then a paganish darknes , drinking deep of the cup of abominations , mingled for it by the roman harlot ; and is there mercy yet in god to recover a twice-lost over backsliding people ? might not the lord have said unto us , what shall i do unto thee , oh island ? how shall i make thee as admah ? how shall i set thee as zeboim ? but his heart is turned within him , his repentings are kindled together : the dry bones shall live , and the fleece shall be wet , though all the earth be dry . god will again water his garden , once more purge his vineyard , once more of his own accord he will take england upon liking , though he had twice deservedly turned it out of his service ; so that coming as a refiners fire , and as fullers soap to purify the sons of levi , to purge them as gold and silver , to offer to the lord an offering in righteousnes , to reform his churches , england , as soon as any , hath the benefit and comfort thereof : nay , the reformation of england shall be more glorious then of any nation in the world , being carried on , neither by might nor power , but onely by the spirit of the lord of hosts . but is this the utmost period of englands sinning , and gods shewing mercy , in continuing and restoring of the gospel ? no truly : we again in our daies have made forfeiture of the purity of his worship , by an almost universall treacherous apostasy : from which the free grace , and good pleasure of god hath made a great progresse again towards a recovery . there are two sorts of men , that i finde exceedingly ready to extenuate and lessen the superstition and popish tyranny of the former daies , into which we were falling . first , such as were industriously instrumentall in it , whose suffrages had been loud , for the choice of a captain to returne into egypt : men tainted with the errours , and loaded with the preferments of the times : with all those who blindly adhere to that faction of men , who as yet covertly drive on that designe . to such as these , all was nothing , and to them it is no mercy to be delivered . and the truth is , it is a favour to the lambe and not the wolfe , to have him taken out of his mouth : but these men have interest by those things which have no ears , against which there is no contending . secondly , such as are disturbed in their opticks , or have gotten false glasses , representing all things unto them in dubious colours : which way soever they look . they can see nothing but errours , errours of all sizes , sorts , ●ects , and sexes . errours and heresies , from the beginning to the end , which hath deceived some men not of the worst , and made them think . that all before was nothing , in comparison of the present confusion . a great signe they felt it not , or were not troubled at it ; as if men should come into a field , and seeing some red weeds and cockle among the corne , should instantly affirm , there is no corne there , but all weeds , and that it were much better the hedges were down , and the whole field laid open to the boar of the forest ; but the harvest will one day shew the truth of these things . but that these apprehensions may not too much prevail , to the vilifying and extenuating of gods mercy , in restoring to us the purity and liberty of the gospel : give me leave in a few words , to set out the danger of that apostasy , from which the good pleasure of god hath given us a deliveranc● . i shall ●●stance onely in a few things : observe then that . first , the darling errours of late years , were all of them stones of the old babel , closing and coupling with that tremendous 〈◊〉 : which the man of sin had erected to dethrone jesus christ : came out of the belly of that trojan horse , that fatall engine , which was framed to betray the city of god . they were popish errours , such as whereof that apostasy did consist , which onely is to be looked upon , as the great adverse state to the kingdom of the lord christ . for a man to be disorderly in a civill state , yea often times through turbulency to break the peace , is nothing to an underhand combination with some formidable enemy , for the utter subversion of it . heedles and headles errours may breed disturbance enough , in scattered individualls , unto the people of god : but such as tend to a peace and association , cum ecclesia malignantium , tending to a totall subversion of the sacred state , are far more dangerous . now such were the innovations of the late hierarchists ; in worship , their paintings , crossings , crucifixes , bowings , cringings , altars , tapers , wafers , organs , anthems , letany , rails , images , copes , vestments ; what were they , but roman vernish , an italian dresse for our devotion , to draw on conformity with that enemy of the lord jesus ; in doctrin , the divinity of episcopacy , auricular confession , free-will , predestination on faith , yea works fore-seen , limbus patrum , justification by works falling from grace , authority of a church , which none knew what it was , canonicall obedience , holinesse of churches , and the like innumerable , what were they but helpes to sancta clara , to make all our articles of religion speak good roman-catholike ? how did their old father of rome refresh his spirit , to see such chariots as those provided , to bring england again unto him ? this closing with popery , was the sting in the errours of those daies , which caused pining if not death in the episcopall pot . secondly , they were such as raked up the ashes of the ancient worthies , whose spirits god stirred up to reform his church , and rendred them contemptible before all , especially those of england , the most whereof died in giving their witnesse against the blinde figment of the reall presence , and that abominable blasphemy of the cursed masse ; in especiall , how did england , heretofore termed asse , turn ape to the pope , and furnished it with all things necessary for an unbloody sacrifice , ready to set up the abomination of desolation , and close with the god maozim , who hath all their peculiar devotion at rome ? thirdly , they were in the management of men which had divers dangerous and pernicious qualifications ; as first , a false repute of learning , i say , a false repute for the greater part , especially of the greatest : and yet taking advantages of vulgar esteem , they bare out as though they had engrossed a monopoly of it : though i presume the world was never deceived by more empty pretenders ; especially in respect of any solid knowledge in divinity or antiquity : but yet their great preferments , had got them a great repute of great deservings , enough to blinde the eyes of poor mortals adoring them at a distance , and to perswade them , that all was not only law , but gospel too , which they broached : and this rendred the infection dangerous . secondly , a great hatred of godlinesse in the power thereof , or any thing beyond a form , in whomsoever it was found ; yea how many odious appellations were invented for bare profession , to render it contemptible ? especially in the exercise of their jurisdiction , thundring their censures against all appearance of zeal , and closing with all profane , impieties ; for were a man a drunkard , a swearer , a sabbath-breaker , an unclean person , so he were no puritan , and had money , patet atri janua ditis , the episcopall heaven was open for them all . now this was a dangerous and destructive qualification , which i beleeve is not professedly found in any party amongst us . thirdly , which was worst of all , they had centred in their bosoms an unfathomable depth of power civil and ecclesiasticall , to stampe their apostaticall errours with authority , giving them not only the countenance of greatnesse , but the strength of power , violently urging obedience ; and to me , the sword of errour , never cuts dangerously , but when it is managed with such an hand . this i am sure , that errours in such , are not recoverable without the utmost danger of the civil state . let now , i beseech you , these and the like things be considered , especially the strong combination that was thorowout the papall world for the seducing of this poor nation : that i say nothing , how this viall was poured out upon the very throne , and then , let us all be ashamed and confounded in our selves , that we should so undervalue and sleight the free mercy of god , in breaking such a snare , and setting the gospel at liberty in england . my intent was , having before asserted this restauration of jerusalem , to the good pleasure of god , to have stirred you up to thankefullnesse unto him , and self-humiliation in consideration of our great undeserving of such mercy ; but alas ; as far as i can see , it will scarce passe for a mercy : and unlesse every mans perswasion may be a josephs sheaf , the goodnesse of god shall scarce be acknowledged ; but yet let all the world know , and let the house of england know this day , that we lie unthankefully under as full a dispensation of mercy and grace , as ever nation in the world enjoyed , and that without a lively acknowledgement thereof , with our own unworthinesse of it , we shall one day know what it is ( being taught with briars and thorns ) to undervalue the glorious gospel of the lord jesus . good lord ! what would helplesse macedonians give for one enjoiment ? o that wales , o that ireland , o that france , where shall i stop ? i would offend none , but give me leave to say , o that every , i had almost said , o that any part of the world , had such helpes and means of grace , as these parts of england have , which will scarce acknowledge any mercy in it : the lord break the pride of our spirits , before it break the staff of our bread , and the helpe of our salvation . o that the bread of heaven , and the bloud of christ might be accounted good nourishment , though every one hath not the sauce he desireth . i am perswaded , that if every absolom in the land , that would be a judge for the ending of our differences , were enthroned ( he spoke the peoples good , though he intended his own power ) the case would not be much better then it is . well , the lord make england , make this honourable audience , make us all to know these three things . first , that we have received such a blessing , in setting at liberty the truths of the gospel , as is the crown of all others mercies , yea , without which they were not valuable , yea were to be despised : for successe without the gospel , is nothing but a prosperous conspiracy against jesus christ . secondly , that this mercy is of mercy , this love of free love , and the grace that appeareth , of the eternall hidden free grace of god . he hath shewed his love unto us because he loved us , and for no other reason in the world , this people being guilty of bloud and murder , of soul and body , adultery , and idolatry , and oppression , with a long catalogue of sins and iniquities . thirdly , that the height of rebellion against god , is the despifing of spirituall gospel-mercies ; should mordecai have troden the robes under his feet , that were brought him from the king , would it not have been severely revenged ? doth the king of heaven lay open the treasures of his wisedom , knowledge and goodnesse for us , and we despise them ? what shall i say , i had almost said , hell punishes no greater sin : the lord say it not our charge : o that we might be solemnly humbled for it this day , before it be too late . to discover unto us the freedom of that effectuall grace , which is dispensed towards the elect , under the with the preaching of the word : for if the sending of the outward means be of free underserved love , surely the working of the spirit under that dispensatior , for the saving of souls , is no lesse free : for , who hath made us differ from others , and what have we that we have not received ? o that god should say unto us in our bloud , live ; that he should say unto us in our blood , live ; that he should breath upon us when we were as dry bones , dead in trespasses and sins ; let us remember , i beseech you , the frame of our hearts , and the temper of our spirits , in the da●es wherein we know not god , and his goodnesse , but went on in a swift course of rebellion ; can none of you look back upon any particular daies or nights , and say , ah lord , that thou shouldest be so patient and so full of forbearance , as not to sent me to hell at such an instant ; but oh lord , that thou shouldest go further , and blot out mine iniquities for thine own sake , when i made thee serve with my sins ; lord , what shall i say it is ? it is the free grace of my god : what expression transcendeth that , i know not . of caution : england received the gospel of meer mercy , let it take heed , lest it lose it by justice ; the placer of the candlestick , can remove it ; the truth is , it will not be removed unlesse it be abused , and wo to them , from whom mercies are taken for being abused ; from whom the gospel is removed for being despised ; it had been better for the husbandman never to have had the vineyard , then to be slain for their ill using of it ; there is nothing left to do them good , who are forsaken for for saking the gospel . the glory of god was of late by many degrees departing from the temple in our land . that was gon to the threshold , yea to the mount : if now at the returne , thereof , it finde again cause to depart , it will not go by steps , but all at once ; this island , or at least the greatest part thereof , as i formerly intimated , hath twice lost the gospel ; once , when the saxons wrested it from the britains , when , if we may believe their own dolefull moaning historian , they were given over to all wickednes , oppression , and villany of life : which doubtles was accompanied with contempt of the word , though for faith and perswasion we do not finde that they were corrupted , and do finde that they were tenacious enough of antique discipline , as appeared in their following oppositions to the roman tyranny , as in beda . secondly , it was lost in regard of the purity and power thereof , by blinde superstition and antichristian impiety , accompanied also with abominable lewdnes , oppression , and all manner of sin , in the face of the sun , so that first prophanenes , working a despising of the gospel , then superstion ushering in prophanenes , have in this land shewed their power for the extirpation of the gospel ; oh , that we could remember the daies of old , that we could consider the goodnes and severity of god , on them which fell severity , but towards us goodnes , if we continue in that goodnes , for otherwise even we also shall be cut off : yet here we may observe , that though both these times there was a forsaking in the midst of the land , yet there was in it a tenth for to returne as a teyle-tree , and as an oak whose substance is in them when they cast their leaves , so was the holy seed and the substance thereof , isa 6. 13. at in the dereliction of the jews , so of this nation , there was a remnant that quickly took root , and brought forth fruit , both in the one devastation , and the other , though the watcher and the holy one from heaven , had called to cut down the tree of this nation , and to scatter its branches from flourishing before him , yet the stump and root was to be left in the earth with a band of iron , that it might spring again ; thus twice did the lord come seeking fruit of this vine , doing little more then pruning and dressing it , although it brought forth wilde grapes : but if he come the third time and finde no fruit , the sentence will be , cut it down , why cumbreth it the gronnd ? now to prevent this i shall not follow all those gospel-supplanting sins we finde in holy writ , onely i desire to cautionate you and us all in three things . first , take heed of pretending or holding out the gospel for a covert or shadow for other things . god will not have this gospel made a stalking horse for carnall designes : put not in that glorious name , where the thing it self is not clearly intended ; if in any thing it be , let it have no compeer ; if not , let it not be named ; if that you aim at be just , it needs no varnish ; if it be not , it is the worse for it . gilded pills lose not their bitternes , and painted faces are thought to have no native beauty ; all things in the world should serve the gospel ; and if that be made to serve other things , god will quickly vindicate it into liberty . from the beginning of these troubles , right honourable , you have held forth religion and the gospel , as whose preservation and restauration was principally in the aims , and i presume malice it self is not able to discover any insincerity in this , the fruits we behold proclaim to all the conformity of your words and hearts . now the god of heaven grant that the same minde be in you still , in every particular member of this honourable assembly , in the whole nation , especially in the magistracy and ministery of it , that we be not like the boatmen , look one way , and rowe another ; cry gospel , and mean the other thing ; lord lord , and advance our own ends , that the lord may not stir up the staffe of his anger , and the rod of his indignation against us as an hypocriticall people . secondly , take heed of resting upon , and trusting to the priviledge , how ever excellent and glorious , of the outward enjoyment of the gospel . when the jews cryed , the temple of the lord , the temple of the lord , the time was at hand that they should be destroyed . look onely upon the grace that did bestow , and the mercy that doth continue it ; god will have none of his blessings rob him of his glory , and if we will rest at the cisterne , he will stop at the fountain . thirdly , let us all take heed of barrennes under it , for the earth that drinks in the rain that cometh upon it , and beareth thornes and briers , is rejected , and nigh unto cursing , whose end is to be burned , heb. 6. 7 , 8. now what fruits doth it require ? even those reckoned , gal. 5. 22 , 23. the fruit of the spirit is love , joy , peace , long-suffering , gentlenesse , goodnesse , faith , meeknes , temperance ; oh that we had not cause to grieve for a scarcity of these fruits , and the abundant plenty of these works of the flesh recounted , ver. 19 , 20 , 21. oh that that wisedom which is an eminent fruit of the gospel might flourish amongst us , jam. 3. 17. it is first pure , then peaceable , gētle , easy to be entreated , that we might have lesse writing and more praying , lesse envy and more charity ; that all evil surmisings , which are works of the flesh , might have no toleration in our hearts , but be banished for nonconformity to the golden rule of love and peace , but {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} : come we now to the last proposition : no men in the world want help , like them that want the gospel . or , of all distresses want of the gospel cries loudest for relief . rachel wanted children , and she cries , give me children , or i die ; but that was but her impatience , she might have lived , and have had no children , yea , see the justice of god , she dies so soon as ever she hath children : hagar wants water for ishmael , and she will go farre from him , that she may not see him die ; an heavy distresse , and yet if he had died , it had been but an early paying of that debt , which in a few years was to be satisfied . but they that want the gospel may truly cry , give us the gospel or we die , and that not temporally with ishmael , for want of water , but eternally in flames of fire . a man may want liberty , and yet be happy , as joseph was : a man may want peace , and yet be happy , as david was : a man may want children , and yet be blessed , as job was : a man may want plenty , and yet be full of comfort , as micaiah was : but he that wants the gospel , wants every thing that should do him good . a throne without the gospel , is but the devils dungeon . wealth without the gospel , is fuell for hell . advancement without the gospel , is but a going high , to have the greater fall . abraham wanting a childe , complains , what will the lord do for me , seeing i go childelesse , and this eliezer of damascus must be my heire ? much more may a man without the means of grace complain , what shall be done unto me , seeing i go gospellesse ? and all that i have , is but a short inheritance for this lump of clay my body . when elisha was minded to do something for the shunammite who had so kindely entertained him , he asks her , whether he should speak for her to the king , or the captain of the host ? she replies , she dwelt in the middest of her own people , she needeth not those things : but when he findes her to want a childe , and tells her of that , she is almost transported . ah how many poor souls are there , who need not our word to the king or the captain of the host ; but yet being gospellesse , if you could tell them of that , would be even ravished with joy ? think of adam after his fall , before the promise , hiding himself from god : and you have a perfect pourtraicture of a poor creature without the gospel : now this appeareth , 1. from the description we have of the people that are in this state and condition without the gospel ; they are a people that sit in darknes , yea in the region and shaddow of death , matth. 4 16 , 17. they are even darknes it self , joh. 1. 7. within the dominion and dreadfull darknes of death ; darknes was one of egypts plagues , but yet that was a darknes of the body , a darknes wherein men lived : but this is a darknes of the soul , a darknes of death , for these men though they live , yet are they dead ; they are fully described , ephes. 2. 12. without christ , aliens from the common-wealth of israel , strangers from the covenants of promise , having no hope , and without god in the world . christles men , and godles men , and hopeles men , and what greater distresse in the world ? yea , they are called doggs , and unclean beasts , the wrath of god is upon them , they are the people of his curse and indignation . in the extream north , one day and one night divide the year ; but with a people without the gospel , it is all night , the sun of righteousnes shines not upon them , it is night whilest they are here , and they go to eternall night hereafter . what the men of china concerning themselves and others , that they have two eies , the men of europe one , and all the world besides is blinde , may be inverted too , the jews had one eye , sufficient to guide them , they who enjoy the gospel have two eies , but the men of china , with the rest of the nations that want it , are stark blinde , and reserved for the chains of everlasting darknes . 2. by laying forth what the men that want the gospel , do want with it . 1. they want jesus christ : for he is revealed onely by the gospel . austine refused to delight in cicero's hortensius , because there was not in it the name of jesus christ . jesus christ is all and in all , and where he is wanting , there can be no good . hunger cannot truly be satisfied without manna , the bread of life , which is jesus christ : and what shall a hungry man do that hath no bread ? thirst cannot be quenched , without that water or living spring , which is jesus christ : and what shall a thirsty soul do without water ? a captive as we are all , cannot be delivered without redemption , which is jesus christ : and what shall the prisoner do without his ransom ? fools as we are , all cannot be instructed without wisdom , which is jesus christ , without him we perish in our folly . all building without him , is on the sand , which will surely fall : all working without him , is in the fire , where it will be consumed : all riches without him , have wings , and will away : mallem ruere cum christo , quam regnare cum caesare , said luther , a dungeon with christ is a throne , and a throne without christ a hell . nothing so ill , but christ will compensate : the greatest evil in the world is sin , and the greatest sin was the first ; and yet gregory feared not to cry , o felix culpa quae talem meruit redemptorem , oh happy fault which found such a redeemer ; all mercies without christ are bitter , and every cup is sweet that is seasoned but with a drop of his blood , he truly is amor & delitiae humani generis , the love and delight of the sonnes of men , without whom they must perish eternally : for there is no other name given unto them , whereby they may be saved , act. 4. he is the way , men without him , are cains , wanderers , vagabonds : he is the truth , men without him are liars , devils , who was so of old : he is the life , without him men are dead , dead in trespasses and sins : he is the light , without him men are in darknes , and go they know not whither : he is the vine , those that are not graffed in him , are withered branches , prepared for the fire : he is the rock , men not built on him , are carried away with a flood : he is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} and {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the first and the last , the author and the ender , the founder and the finisher of our salvation ; he that hath not him , hath neither beginning of good , nor shall have end of misery . o blessed jesus , how much better were it , not to be , then to be without thee ? never to be borne , then not to die in thee ? a thousand hels come short of this , eternally to want jesus christ , as men do , that want the gospel . 2. they want all holy communion with god , wherein the onely happines of the soul doth consist ; he is the life , light , joy , and blessednes of the soul : without him , the soul in the body is but a dead soul , in a living sepulchre . it is true , there be many that say , who will shew us any good ? but unles the lord lift up the light of his countenance upon us , we perish for evermore . thou hast made us for thy self , ô lord , and our heart is unquiet , untill it come to thee . you who have tasted how gracious the lord is , who have had any converse and communion with him , in the issues and goings forth of his grace , those delights of his soul with the children of men , would you live ? would not life it self , with a confluence of all earthly endearements , be a very hell without him ? is it not the daily language of your hearts , whom have we in heaven but thee ? and in earth there is nothing in comparison of thee ? the soul of man is of a vast boundles comprehension , so that if all created good were centred into one enjoyment , and that bestowed upon one soul , because it must needs be finite and limited , as created , it would give no solid contentment to his affections , nor satisfaction to his desires . in the presence and fruition of god alone there is joy for evermore : at his right hand are rivers of pleasure , the welsprings of life and blessednes . now if to be without communion with god in this life , wherein the soul hath so many avocations from the contemplation of its own misery , ( for earthly things are nothing else ) is so unsupportable a calamity , ah what shall that poor soul do , that must want him for eternity ? as all they must do , who want the gospel . 3. they want all the ordinances of god , the joy of our hearts , and comfort of our souls . oh the sweetnes of a sabbath ! the heavenly raptures of prayer ! oh the glorious communion of saints , which such men are deprived of ! if they knew the value of the hidden pearl , and these things were to be purchased , what would such poor souls not part with for them ? 4. they will at last want heaven and salvation ; they shall never come to the presence of god in glory : never inhabite a glorious mansion : they shall never behold jesus christ , but when they shall call for rocks and mountains to fall upon them , to hide them from his presence : they shall want light , in utter darknes , want life , under the second death , want refreshment , in the middest of flames , want healing , under gnawing of conscience , want grace , continuing to blaspheme , want glory , in full misery : and which is the sum of all this , they shall want an end of all this , for their worme dieth not , neither is their fire quenched . thirdly , because being in all this want , they know not that they want any thing , and so never make out for any supply . laodicea knew much , but yet because she knew not her wants , she had almost as good have known nothing : gospellesse men know not that they are blinde , and seek not for eye-salve : they know not that they are dead , and seek not for life ; what ever they call for , not knowing their wants , is but like a mans crying for more weight to presse him to death : and therefore when the lord comes to any with the gospel , he is found of them that sought him not , and made manifest to them that asked not after him , rom. 10. 20. this is a seal upon their misery , without gods free-mercy , like the stone laid upon the mouth of the cave by joshua , to keep in the five kings , untill they might be brought out to be hanged . all that men do in the world , is but seeking to supply their wants ; either their naturall wants , that nature may be supplied , or their sinfull wants , that their lusts may be satisfied , or their spirituall wants , that their souls may be saved . for the two first , men without the gospel , lay out all their strength ; but of the last , there is amongst them a deep silence . now this is all one , as for men to cry out that their finger bleeds , whilest a sword is run thorow their hearts , and they perceive it not : to desire a wart to be cured , whilest they have a plague-sore upon them ; and hence perhaps it is , that they are said to go to hell like sheep , psal. 49. 14. very quietly , without dread , as a bird hasting to the snare , and not knowing that it is for his life , prov. 7. 23. and there ly down in utter disappointment and sorrow for evermore . 4. because all mercies are bitter judgements to men that want the gospel ; all fuell for hell ; aggravations of condemnation ; all cold drink to a man in a feaver : pleasant at the entrance , but increasing his torments in the close : like the book in the revelation , sweet in the mouth , but bitter in the belly . when god shall come to require his bread and wine , his flax and oil , peace and prosperity , liberty and victories , of gospellesse men , they will curse the day that ever they enjoyed them ; so unspirituall are many mens mindes , and so unsavoury their judgements , that they reckon mens happines , by their possessions , and suppose the catalogue of their titles , to be a roll of their felicities : calling the proud happy , and advancing in our conceits them that work wickednes , mal. 3. 15. but god will one day come in with another reckoning , and make them know , that all things without christ , are but as cyphers without a figure , of no value . in all their banquets where christ is not a guest , their vine is of the vine of sodom , and of the field of gomorrah , their grapes are grapes of gall , their clusters are bitter , deut. 32. 32 , 33. their palaces , where christ is not , are but habitations of zim and ochim , dragons and unclean beasts . their prosperity is but putting them into full pasture , that they may be fatted for the day of slaughter , the day of consumption decreed for all the bulls of bashan : the gospel bringing christ , is the salt that makes all other things savoury . to shew us the great priviledge and preeminence , which , by the free grace of god , many parts of this island do enjoy . to us that sat in darknes and in the shadow of death , a great light is risen , to guide us into the waies of peace . let others recount , the glories , benefits , profits , outward blessings of this nation , let us look only upon that which alone is valuable in it self , and makes other things so to be , the gospel of christ . it is reported of the heralds of our neighbour monarchs , that when one of them had repeated the numerous titles of his master of spain , the other often repeated france , france , france ; intimating that the dominion which came under that one denomination , would counterpoise the long catalogue of kingdomes and dukedoms , wherewith the other flourisht . were we to contend with the grand signieur of the east , about our enjoyments , we might easily bear down his windy pompous train of titles , with this one , which millies repetitum placebit , the gospel , the gospel : upon all other things you may put the inscription in daniel , mene , mene , tekel , they are weighed in the balance , and found wanting , but proclaim before those that enjoy the gospel , as haman before mordecai , lo , thus shall it be done to them whom the lord will honour . the fox in the fable had a thousand wiles to save himself from the hunters : but the cat knew unum magnum , one great thing that would surely do it . earthly supports and contentments , are but a thousand failing wiles , which will all vanish in the time of need : the gospel and christ in the gospel , is that unnm magnum , that unum necessarium , which alone will stand us in any stead . in this , this island is as the mountain of the lord , exalted above the mountains of the earth , it is true , many other nations partake with us in the same blessing : not to advance our own enjoyments , in some particulars wherein perhaps we might justly do it : but take all these nations with us , and what a molehill are we to the whole earth , overspread with paganisme , mahumetanisme , antichristianisme , which innumerable foolish haeresies ? and what is england , that it should be amongst the choice branches of the vineyard , the top boughs of the cedars of god ? shews that such great mercies , if not esteemed , if not improved , if abused , will end in great judgements ; wo be to that nation , that city , that person , that shall be called to an account for despising the gospel , amos 2. 2. you only have i known of all the families of the earth , what then ? surely some great blessing is coming to that people , whom god thus knowes , and so ownes , as to make himself known unto them . no : but , therefore will i visit upon you all your iniquities . how ever others may have some ease or mitigation in their punishments , do you expect the utmost of my wrath . luther said , he thought hell was paved with the bald sculls of friers ; i know nothing of that ; yet of this sure i am , that none shall have their portion so low in the ●●thermost hell , none shall drink so deep of the cup of gods indignation , as they , who have refused christ in the gospel . men will curse the day to all eternity , wherein the blessed name of iesus christ was made known unto them , if they continue to despise it . he that abuseth the choisest of mercies , shall have judgement without mercy ; what can help them , who reject the counsell of god for their good ? if now england have received more culture from god then other nations , there is more fruit expected of england , then other nations . a barren tree in the lords vineyard , must be cut down for cumbring the ground , the sheep of god must every one beare twins , and none be barren amongst them , cant. 4. 2. if after all gods care and husbandry , his vineyard brings forth wilde-grapes , he will take away the hedge , break down the wall , and lay it waste . for the present the vineyard of the lord of hosts is the house of england , and if it be as earth , which when the rain falls upon it , brings forth nothing but thornes and briers , it is nigh unto cursings , and the end thereof is to be burned , heb. 6. men utterly and for ever neglect that ground , which they have tried their skill about , and laid out much cost upon it , if it bring not forth answerable fruits . now here give me leave to say , ( and the lord avert the evil deserved by it ) that england , ( i mean these cities , and those other places , which since the beginning of our troubles , have enjoied the gospel , in a more free and plentifull manner then heretofore ) hath shewed it self not much to value it . 1. in the time of straits , though the sound of the gospel passed thorow all our streets , our villages enjoying them who preached peace , and brought glad tidings of good things , so that neither we , nor our fathers , nor our fathers fathers , ever saw the like before us ; though manna fell round about our tents every day : yet as though all were lost and we had nothing , manna was loathed as light bread , the presence of christ made not recompence for the losse of our swine : men had rather be again in aegypt , then hazard a pilgrimage in the wildernes . if there be any here , that ever entertained thoughts , to give up the worship of god to superstition , his churches to tyranny , and the doctrine of the gospel to episcopall corruptions , in the pressing of any troubles , let them now give god the glory , and be ashamed of their own hearts , lest it be bitternesse in the end . 2. in the time of prosperity , by our fierce contentions about mint and cummin , whilest the weightier things of the gospel have been undervalued , languishing about unprofitable questions , &c. but i shall not touch this wound lest it bleed . for exhortation , that every one of us , in whose hand there is any thing , would set in , for the help of those parts of this island , that as yet sit in darknesse , yea in the shadow of death , and have none to hold out the bread of life to their fainting souls . doth not wales cry , and the north cry , yea and the west cry , come and help us ? we are yet in a worse bondage , then any by your means we have been delivered from : if you leave us thus , all your protection will but yeeld us a more free and joviall passage to the chambers of death . ah , little do the inhabitants of goshen know , whil'st they are contending about the bounds of their pasture , what darknesse there is in other places of the land ; how their poor starved souls would be glad of the crums that fall from our tables : ô that god would stir up the hearts , 1. of ministers to cast off all by-respects , and to flee to those places , where in all probability , the harvest would be great , and the labourers are few or none at all . i have read of an heretick that swom over a great river in a frost , to scatter his errours : the old iewish , and now popish pharisees , compasse sea and land , to make proselytes ; the merchants trade not into more countreys , then the factours of rome do , to gain souls to his holinesse : east and west , farre and wide , do these locusts spread themselves , not without hazard of their lives , as well as losse of their souls , to scatter their superstitions : only the preachers of the everlasting gospel seem to have lost their zeal . o that there were the same minde in us that was in iesus christ , who counted it his meat and drinke , to doe his fathers will , in gaining souls . 2. of the magistrates , i mean of this honourable assembly , to turn themselves every lawfull way , for the help of poor macedonians : the truth is , in this , i could speak more then i intend , for perhaps my zeal , and some mens judgements , would scarse make good harmony . this only i shall say , that if iesus christ might be preached , though with some defects in some circumstances , i should rejoice therein . o that you would labour , to let all the parts of the kingdom , taste of the sweetnes of your successes , in carrying to them the gospel of the lord jesus : that the doctrine of gospel might make way for the discipline of the gospel , without which , it will be a very skeleton . when manna fell in the wildernesse from the hand of the lord , every one had an equall share : i would there were not now too great an inequality in the scattering of manna , when secondarily in the hand of men ; whereby some have all , and others none , some sheep daily picking the choise flowers of every pasture , others wandring upon the barren mountains , without guide or food : i make no doubt , but the best waies for the furtherance of this , are known full well unto you , and therefore have as little need to be petitioned in this , as other things . what then remains ? but that for this , and all other necessary blessings , we all set our hearts and hands to petition the throne of grace . soli deogloria . a short defensative about chvrch government , toleration and petitions about these things . reader , this , be it what it will , thou hast no cause to thank or blame me for . had i been mine own , it had not been thine . my submission unto others judgements , being the only cause of submitting this unto thy censure . the substance of it , is concerning things now adoing : in some whereof , i heretofore thought it my wisedom , modestly haesitare , ( or at least , not with the most , peremptorily to dictate to others my apprehensions , ) as wiser men have done in weightier things : and yet this , not so much for want of perswasion in my own minde , as out of opinion that we have already had too many needlesse and fruitlesse discourses about these matters . would we could agree to spare perishing paper , and for my own part had not the opportunity of a few lines in the close of this sermon , and the importunity of not a few friends urged , i could have slighted all occasions , and accusations , provoking to publish those thoughts which i shall now impart : the truth is , in things concerning the church , ( i mean things purely externall , of form , order and the like , ) so many waies have i been spoken , that i often resolved to speak my self , desiring rather to appear ( though conscious to my self of innumerable failings ) what indeed i am , then what others incuriously suppose . but yet the many , i ever thought unworthy of an apology , and some of satisfaction ; especially those , who would make their own judgements a rule for themselves and others : impatient that any should know , what they do not , or conceive otherwise then they , of what they do ; in the mean time , placing almost all religion in that , which may be perhaps a hinderance of it , and being so valued , or rather overvalued , is certainly the greatest . nay , would they would make their judgements , only so farre as they are convinced , and are able to make out their conceptions to others , and not also their impotent desires , to be the rule : that so they might condemn only that , which complies not with their mindes , and not all that also , which they finde to thwart their aims and designes . but so it must be . once more conformity is grown the touchstone , ( and that not in practice , but opinion , ) amongst the greatest part of men , however otherwise of different perswasions . dissent is the onely crime , and where that is all , that is culpable , it shall be made , all that is so . from such as these , who almost hath not suffered ? but towards such , the best defence is silence . besides , my judgement commands me , to make no known quarrell my own . but rather if it be possible , and as much as in me lieth , live peaceably with all men , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , i proclaim to none , but men whose bowels are full of gall : in this spring of humours , lenitives for our own spirits , may perhaps be as necessary , as purges for others brains . further , i desire to provoke none ; more stings then combs are got at 〈…〉 wasps : even cold stones , smitten together , sparkle 〈…〉 the wringing of the nose , bringeth forth blood . neither do i conceive it wisedom in these quarrelsome daies , to entrust more of a mans self with others , then is very necessary . the heart of man is deceitfull ; some that have smooth tongues , have sharp teeth : such can give titles on the one side , and wounds on the other . any of these considerations , would easily have prevailed with me , stul●i●ia hac caruisse , had not mine ears been filled , presently after the preaching of the precedent sermon , which sad complaints of some , and false reports of others , neither of the lowest ranke of men , as though i had helped to open a gate , for that which is now called a troian horse , though heretofore counted an engine likelier to batter the walls of babylon , then to betray the towers of sion . this urged some , to be urgent with me , for a word or two , about church government , according to the former suggestions undermined , and a toleration of different perswasions , as they said asserted . now truly to put the accusers to prove the crimination , ( for so it was , and held forth a grievous crime in their apprehensions ) ( what is really so , god will judge ) had been sufficient . but i could not so evade : and therefore , after my sermon was printed to the last sheet , i was forced , to set apart a few houres , to give an account , of what hath passed from me in both these things , which have been so variously reported ; hoping that the reading may not be unusefull to some , as the writing was very necessary to me . and here at the entrance , i shall desire at the hands of men , that shall cast an eye , on this heap of good meaning , these few , as i suppose , equitable demaunds . 1. not to prosecute men into odious appellations ; and then themselves , who feigned the crime , pronounce the sentence . like him , who said of one brought before him , if he be not guilty , it is fit he should be : involving themselves in a double guilt , of falsehood and malice , and the aspersed parties , in a double misery , of being belied , in what they are , and hated for what they are not : if a man be not , what such men would have him , it is ods , but they will make him what he is not : if what he really is , do not please , and that be not enough to render him odious , he shall sure enough be more . ithacius will make all priscillianists who are any thing more devout then himself : if men do but desire to see with their own eyes , presently they are enrolled of this , or that sect : every misperswasion , being beforehand , in petitions , sermons , &c. rendred odious and intolerable : in such a course , innocency it self cannot long goe free . christians deal with one another in earnest , as children in their plaies , clap anothers coat upon their fellows shoulder , and pretending to beat that , cudgell him they have cloathed with it . what shall be given unto thee , oh thou false tongue ? if we cannot be more charitable , let us be more ingenuous ; many a man hath been brought to a more favourable opinion of such as are called by dreadfull names , then formerly , by the experience of false impositions on himself . 2. not to cloath our differences with expressions , fitting them no better then sauls armour did david ; nor make them like a little man in a bumbast coat upon stilts , walking about like a giant : our little differences may be met at every stall , and in too many pulpits , swelled by unbefitting expressions , into such a formidable bulk , as poor creatures are even startled at their horrid looks and appearance : whilest our own perswasions are set out , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , with silken words , and gorg●ous apparell , as if we sent them into the world a wooing . hence , whatever it is , it must be temple building , gods government , christs scepter , throne , kingdom , the only way , that , for want of which , errours , haeresies , sins , spring among us , plagues , judgements , punishments come upon us . to such things as these , all pretend , who are very confident they have found out the only way . such bigge words as these , have made us believe , that we are mortall adversaries ; ( i speak of the parties at variance about government ) that one kingdom , communion , heaven , cannot hold us . now truly if this course be followed , so to heighten our differences , by adorning the truth we own , with such titles as it doth not merit , and branding the errours we oppose , with such marks , as in cold blood we cannot think they themselves , but only in their ( by us supposed ) tendance do deserve , i doubt not , but that it will be bitternesse unto us all in the end . and quaere whether by this means , many have not been brought to conceive the kingdom of jesus christ , which himself affirms to be within us , to consist in forms , outward order , positive rules , and externall government . i designe none , but earnestly desire , that the two great parties , at this day litigant in this kingdom , would seriously consider , what is like to be the issue of such proceedings ; and whether the mystery of godlines in the power thereof , be like to be propagated by it . let not truth be weighed in the balance of our interest ; will not a dram of that , turn the scale with some against many arguments ? power is powerfull to perswade . 3. not to measure mens judgements , by their subscribing , or refusing to subscribe petitions in these daies about church government ; for subscribers , would every one could not see , with what a zealous nescience , and implicite judgement many are lead . and for refusers , though perhaps they could close with the generall words , wherewith usually they are expressed , yet there are so many known circumstances , restraining those words to particular significations , directing them to by , and secundary tendences , as must needs make some abstain : for mine own part , from subscribing late petitions , about church-government , i have been withheld by such reasons as these . 1. i dare not absolutely assert , maintain , and abide by it , ( as rationall men ought to do every clause , in any thing owned by their subscription ) that the cause of all the evils , usually annumerated in such petitions , is , the want of church-govenrment , taking it for any government , that ever yet was established amongst men , or in notion otherwise made known unto me . yea , i am confident that more probable causes in this juncture of time might be assigned of them ; neither can any be ignorant , how plentifully such evils abounded , when church-discipline was most severely executed ; and lastly , i am confident , that who ever lives to see them suppressed by any outward means ( when spirituall weapons shall be judged insufficient ) will finde it to be , not any thing , either included in , or necessarily annexed unto church-discipline , that must do it , but some other thing , not unlike that , which in daies of yore when all the world wondered after the beast , suppressed all truth and errour , but only what the arch enemy of jesus christ , was pleased to hold out to be believed ; but of this afterward . 2. i dare not affirm that the parliament hath not established a government already , for the essentialls of it , themselves affirming that they have , and their ordinances about rulers , rules , and persons to be ruled , ( the requisita and materialls of government ) being long since extant . now to require a thing to be done , by them , who affirm that they have already done it , argues , either much weaknesse or supine negligence in our selves , not to ●nderstand what is ef●ected , or a strong imputation , on those that have done it , either fraudulently , to pretend that which is false , or foolishly to averse , what they do not understand ; yet though i have learned to obey as farre as lawfully ● may , my judgement is exceedingly farre from being enslaved , and according to that , by gods assistance , shall be my practice ; which if it run crosse to the prescriptions of authority , it shall cheerfully submit to the censure thereof ; in the mean time , all petitioning of any party about this businesse , seems to thwart some declarations of the house of commons , whereunto i doubt not , but they intend for the main , inviolably and unalterably to adhere . adde hereunto , that petitioning in this kinde , was not long since voted breach in priviledge , in them , who might justly expect , as much favour and liberty in petitioning , as any of their brethren in the kingdom , and i have more then one reason to suppose , that the purpose and designe of theirs and others , was one , and the same . 3. there are no small grounds of supposall , that some petitions have not their rise from amongst them by whom they are subscribed , but that the spring and master wheels giving the first motion to them , are distant and unseen ; my self having been lately urged to subscription , upon this ground , that directions were had for it from above , ( as we use to speak in the countrey ) yea in this , i could say more then i intend , aiming at nothing but the quieting of mens spirits , needlesly exasperated , only i cannot but say , that honest men ought to be very cautious , how they put themselves upon any engagement , that might make any party or faction in the kingdom ; suppose that their interest in the least measure , doth run crosse to that of the great councell thereof , thereby to strengthen the hands or designes of any , by occasioning an opinion that upon fresh or new divisions , ( which god of his mercy prevent ) we would not adhere constantly to our old principles , walking according to which , we have hitherto found protection and safety . and i cannot not but be jealous for the honour of our noble parliament , whose authority is every day undermined , and their regard in the affections of the people shaken , by such dangerous insinuations , as though they could in an houre put an end to all our disturbances , but refuse it . this season also for such petitions , seems to me very unseasonable , the greatest appearing danger impendent to this kingdom , being from the contest about church-government , which by such means as this , is exceedingly heightned , and animosity added to the parties at variance . 4. a particular form of church-discipline is usually in such petitions , either directly expressed , or evidently pointed at , and directed unto , as that alone which our covenant engageth us to embrace ; yea , as though it had long since designed that particular way , and distinguished it from all others ; the embracing of it , is pressed under the pain of breach of covenant , a crime abhorred of god and man . now truly to suppose that our covenant did ty us up absolutely to any one formerly known way of church-discipline , the words formally ingaging us into a disquisition out of the word , of that which is agreeable to the minde and will of god , is to me , such a childish , ridiculous , selfish conceit , as i believe no knowing men will once entertain , unlesse prejudice begotten by their peculiar interest , hath disturbed their intellectualls : for my part i know no church-government in the world already established amongst any sort of men of the truth , and necessity whereof , i am convinced in all particulars , especially if i may take their practice to be the best interpreter of their maximes . fourthly , another postulatum is , that men would not use an over-zealous speed , upon every small difference , to characterise men ( otherwise godly and peaceable ) as sectaries , knowing the odiousnesse of the name , among the vulgar , deservedly or otherwise imposed , and the evil of the thing it self , rightly apprehended , whereunto lighter differences do not amount ; such names as this , i know are arbitrary , and generally serve the wills of the greater number . they are commonly sectaries , who ( jure aut injuria ) are oppressed . nothing was ever persecuted under an esteemed name . names are in the power of the many things , and their causes are known to few . there is none in the world can give an ill title to others , which from some he doth not receive : the same right which in this kinde i have towards another , he hath towards me : unlesse i affirm my self to be infallible , not so he : those names which men are known by , when they are oppressed , they commonly use against others whom they seek to oppresse . i would therefore that all horrid appellations , as increasers of strife , kindlers of wrath , enemies of charity , food for animasity , were for ever banished from amongst us . let a spade be called a spade , so we take heed christ be not called beelzebub . i know my profession to the greatest part of the world is sectarisme , as christianity : amongst those who professe the name of christ , to the greatest number , i am a sectary , because a protestant : amongst protestants , at least the one half , account all men of my perswasion , calvinisticall sacramentarian sectaries : amongst these again , to some i have been a puritanicall sectary , an aerian haeretick , because anti-prelaticall : yea and amongst these last , not a few account me a sectary , because i plead for presbyteriall government in churches : and to all these am i thus esteemed , as i am fully convinced , causelesly and erroneously , what they call sectarisme , i am perswaded is ipsissima veritas , the very truth it self , to which they also ought to submit , that others also though upon false grounds , are convinced of the truth of their own perswasion , i cannot but believe ; and therefore as i finde by experience , that the horrid names of haeretick , schismatick , sectary , and the like , have never had any influence or force upon my judgement , nor otherwise moved me , unlesse it were unto retaliation ; so i am perswaded it is also with others , for homines sumus ; forcing them abroad in such liveries , doth not at all convince them , that they are servants to the master of sects indeed , but only , makes them wait an opportunity , to cast the like mantle on their traducers . and this usually is the beginning of arming the more against the few , with violence : impatient of bearing the burdens , which they impose on others shoulders : by means whereof , christendom hath been made a theatre of blood : and one amongst all , after that by cruelty and villany , he had prevailed above the rest , took upon him to be the only dictator in christian religion : but of this afterwards . now by the concession of these , as i hope not unequitable demands , thus much at least i conceive will be attained , viz. that a peaceable dissent in some smaller things , disputable questions , not-absolutely-necessary assertions , deserves not any rigid censure , distance off affections , or breach of christian communion and amity : in such things as these , veniam petimusque damusque vicissim : if otherwise , i professe i can hardly bring my minde to comply and close in with them , amongst whom almost any thing is lawfull but to dissent . these things being premised , i shall now set down and make publike , that proposall , which heretofore i have tendred , as a means to give some light into a way for the profitable and comfortable practice of church-government ; drawing out of generall notions what is practically applicable , so circumstantiated , as of necessity it must be : and herein i shall not alter any thing , or in the least expression go off from that which long since i drew up at the request of a worthy friend , after a discourse about it : and this , not only because it hath already been in the hands of many , but also because my intent is not , either to assert , dispute , or make out any thing further of my judgement in these things , then i have already done , ( hoping for more leasure so to do , then the few houres assigned to the product of this short appendix will permit ) but only by way of a defensative , to evince , that the rumours which have been spread by some , and entertained by others , too greedily about this matter , have been exceeding causelesse and groundlesse ; so that though my second thoughts have , if i mistake not , much improved some particulars in this essay , yet i cannot be induced , because of the reason before recounted ( the only cause of the publication thereof ) to make any alteration in it , only i shall present the reader with some few things , which gave occasion and rise to this proposall . as 1. a fervent desire to prevent all further division and separation , disunion of mindes amongst godly men , suspisions and jealousies in the people towards their ministers , as aiming at power and unjust domination over them , fruitles disputes , languishings about unprofitable questions , breaches of charity for trifles , exasperating the mindes of men one against another : all which growing evils , tending to the subversion of christian love , and the power of godlinesse , with the disturbance of the state , are too much fomented by that sad breach and division , which is here attempted to be made up . 2. a desire to work and draw the mindes of all my brethren ( the most i hope need it not ) to set in , for a thorow reformation , and for the obtaining of holy communion , to keep off indifferently the unworthy from church priviledges , and prophaning of holy things . whereunto , i presumed the discovery of a way whereby this might be effected , without their disturbance in their former station , would be a considerable motive . 3. a consideration of the paucity of positive rules in the scripture for church-government with the great difficulty of reducing them to practise in these present times , ( both sufficiently evidenced by the endlesse disputes , and irreconcilable differences of godly , precious and learned men about them , made me conceive , that the practice of the apostolicall churches , ( doubtlesse for a time observed in those immediately succeeding ) would be the best externall help for the right interpretation of those rules we have , and patern to draw out a church way by . now truly after my best search , and inquiry , into the first churches and their constitution , framing an idea and exemplar of them , this poor heap following , seems to me , as like one of them , as any thing that yet i have seen : nothing at all doubting , but that if a more skilfull hand had the limning of it , the proportions , features and lines , would be very exact , equall and paralell : yea , did not extream haste , now call it from me , so that i have no leisure , so much as to transcribe the first draught , i doubt not but , by gods assistance , it might be so set forth , as not to be thought altogether undesirable ; if men would but a little lay aside beloved preconceptions : but the printer staies for every line : only i must intreat every one that shall cast a candid eye , on this unwillingly exposed embryo , and rude abortion , that he would assume in his minde , any particular church mentioned in the scripture , as of h●erusalem , corinth , ephesus , or the like , consider the way and state they were th●n , and some ages after , in respect of outward immunities and enjoyments , and tell me , whether any rationall man can suppose , that either there were in those places , sundry particular churches , with their distinct peculiar officers , acting in most pastorall duties severally in them , as distinguished and divided into entire societies , but ruling them in respect of some particulars loyally in combination , considered as distinct bodies ; or else , that they were such single congregations , as that all that power and authority which was in them , may seem fitly and conveniently to be entrusted , with a small handfull of men , combined under one single pastour , with one , two , or perhaps no associated elders . more then this , i shall only ask , whether all ordinary power , may not without danger , be asserted to reside in such a church as is here described , reserving all due right and authority , to councels and magistrates . now for the fountain , seat , and rise of this power , for the just distribution of it , between pastours and people , this is no place to dispute ; these following lines were intended meerly to sedate and bury such contests , and to be what they are intitled , viz. notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a90296e-650 ecclesia sicut lun● defectu● habet , & ortus frequentes ; sed defectibus suis crevit , &c. haec est ver● lun● , quae de fratris fui luce perpetua , lur●●en sibi immortalitatis & gratiae mutuatur amb. hex . lib 4. cap 8. psal. ●8 . 13. isa 54. 11. zach. 4 7. isa. 53. 3 , 4 , 5. 1 joh. 3 13. rev. 2. 10. 2 cor. 4. 4. isa. 53. 2. heb. 7. 25. cant. 2. 2. mat. 10. 16. psal 74. 19. eo ipso tempore quo ad omnes gentes praedicatio evangelij mittebatur , quaedam loca apostolis adire prohibebatur ab eo , qui vult omnes homines salvos fieri . prosp. ep ad rufin {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} hom. mal. 4. 2. 1. a quo . 2. ad quem . mod●● . temp●● . instrumentum . materia . isa. 1. 1. amos 1. 1. 〈◊〉 . 1. 1. obad. 1. jer. 1. 11. jer 1. 13. ezek. 1. 5 , 6 , 7. zech. 1. 8. & 3. 9 , 10 , &c. dan. 7. 8 , 9. zech. 2. 1. vid. aquin. 2. 2 q. 174. art. 3 , 4 scot . in dist. tert. a lapide , sanctius in locum , &c. me●● . apost. of later times . ●lut●rch . in vit. bru●i . calvin . in locum , dicebat se discernere , ( nescio quo s●pore , quem verbis explicare non poterat ) quid interesset inter deum revelantem , &c. aug. confes. acts 3. 6. ● lutarch , de defect . or●●u . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . respons . apoll. apud euseb. niceph. — a nullo duro corde resistitur , quid cor ipsum emollit . aug. ezek 36 26. deut. 30. 6. lapide . sanctius . in loc. rom script . synd ar . 1. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . ignat. epist. ad ep. irae lib. 3. cap. 3. qui causam quae sit voluntatis divinae , aliquid majus ●o quaerit , aug. voluntas dei nullo modo causam habet . aquin. p. q. 〈◊〉 . a 5. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . theophrast. . apud picum , de prov. providentia est ratio ordinis rerum ad finem . th. p. q. 22. a 1. c. ezek. 1. non tantum res , sed rerum modos . v●●etur ergo quod non s●t aliqua d●ordenatio , deformitas aut peccatum simpliciter in toto u●●verso , sed tantummodo respectu interiorum causarum , ordinationem superioris causa volentium , licet non vale●●ium pert●rbare . ●rad . de caus. dei l●b. 1. cap. 34. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . a●eo summa justitiae regula est dei volun ●as , ut quicquid vult , co●●so quo● vult justum ●abendum sit , aug. de gen. con ma● . l●b 1. isa. 46. 10. gen. 3 15. chap 4. 26. gen. 6. 5. gen. 5. ●5 . & 6. 18. gen. 12. 1. & 18. 1 , 2. psal. 76 1 , 2. joh. 4. 22. gal 4 4. joh. 12. 31. acts 17. 30. mark . 16 15. mal. 3. 4. prov 8. 31. see tertullian , lib. ad iudae . reckoning almost all the known nations of the world , and affirming that they all , that is , some in them , in his daies , submitted to the scepter of christ : he lived in the end of the second century . ioh. 7. 12. piscat. in loc. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} damascin satis imp●e . mat. 10. 29. iob 14. 5 ▪ prov. 16. 33. prov. 11. 1. ●0 . & 19 21. nihil fit , nisi omnipotens fieri velit , vel ipse faciendo , vel si●endo ut fiat . aug. gen. chap 4 , 5. 4 , 5 , 6 , 7. 1 king. 22. 19 , 20 , 21. 2 kin. 5. 18 , 19. psal. 76. 10. eccles. 7. 26. isa. 6. 9 , 10 , 11 , &c. deus no● operatur in malis , quod ei displicet , sed operatur per eos quod ei placet ; recipientur vero , non pro eo quod deus bene usus est ipsorum operibus malis , sed pro eo , quod ipsi mal● abusi sunt dei operibus bonis : fulgent . ad monim . 2 thes 2. acts 4. liberatur pars hominum , parte pereunte ; sed ●ur horum misertus sit deus , i●orum non misertus , quae scientia comprehendere potest ? later discretionis ratio , sed non late● ipsa discretio . prosp. de vocat . gen. rom. 8. 28 , 29. ephes. 1. 4. 2 tim. 2. 1● . ephes. 2. 2 , 12. non ob aliud dicit , non vos me elegistis , sed ego vos elegi , nisi quia non elegerunt eum , ut eligeret eos ; sed ut eligerent eum , elegit eos . non quia praescivit eos credituros , fed quia facturus ipse fuerit credentes . electi sunt itaque ante mundi constitutionem , ea praedestinatione , qua deus ipse sua futura facta praevidit : electi sunt autem de mundo e● vocatione , qua deus id quod praedestinavit implevit . august . de bon . persev . cap. 16 , 17. mat. 11 21. acts 13. 46. luk. 2. 34. 1 pet. ● . 7. ezek. 2. 5. matth. 2● . 15. rom. ● . 23. vse 1. n●h. 4. 17. zech. 4. 7. s●●l . de emend . temp. * i follow in this the vulgar or common account , otherwise there is no part of scripture chronologie so contended about , as these weeks of daniel : most concluding , that they are terminated in the death of christ , happening about the middest of the last week : but about their originall or rise there is no small debate , of the four decrees made by the persian kings about the building of ierusalem , viz. 1. by cyrus , 2 chron. 3. 6. 2. by darius ezek. 6. 3. 3. by arta●erxes , ezek. 7. of the same to nehemiah , chap. 2. following the account of their reign set down in profane stories , the last only holds exactly . tertullian ad iudae . begins it from darius , when this vision appeared to daniel , whom it seems he conceived to be darius hyslaspes , that followed the magi , and not medus , that was before cyrus : and so with a singular kinde of chronologie makes up his account . vid : euseb. demon . evan lib. 8. cap. 2. fun●c . com. in chron. beroald . chron. lib. 3. cap. 7 , 8 mon●acu . apparat. vse 2. prov. 18. ●0 . heb. 12. 11. pet ▪ mart. de relig. jud ▪ decad. . 1 l●b. 1. observ. 2. q●i liber●t●r , gra●iam diligat ▪ qui non liberatur , debitu●a a●roscar . aug. de bon ▪ persev . cap. 8. 1. ex nequissimis in ipso vitae exitu gratia invenit quos aaoplet ▪ cum multi , qui minus ●ocertes videantur , doni hujus alieni sunt . pros. de voc. gen. lib. 1. cap. 17. 1 cor , 1. 25 , 26. 2. act. 14. 16 , ●7 . ●h . ●7 . ●0 , 3● . 3. rom. ● . 22. joel 2. 28. joh. 17. 32. rom. 1 5 rom ▪ 10. 26. 2. rom. ● . 13. ephs ▪ 14 , 15. mat. ●8 19. august . si hoc voluntatum meritis voluerimus ascribere , ut malos negl●xisse gratia bon●s etegisse ●ideatu● . resistet vobis innumerabilium causa populorum , quibus per tot secula , coelest is doctrinae a●nu●tiatio non corruscavit , nec meltores ju●sse ●oru● posteros possumus ●icere , quibus scriptum est , gentium populus qui sedebat in ●encoris lucem vidit magnam , prosp de voc. gen. lib. ● . cap. 15. reason ● . si de d●bito quaeratur respectu creaturae , in deum cadere non pote●t , nisi ex a●i ●ua suppositione ipsi . deo volunt●ria , quae non potest esse nisi promissio aut pactio a●iqua , ex quibus fideli●at●s aut justitiae debitum ●●●risolet , zuat●z . de libert. divi . vol. disp. 1. sect. 2. num . 5. deus nulla ob ligatione tenetur ▪ antequam i●se fi●em suam astringat , ergo ante promissionem nulla justitia distributiva in deo reperitur . v●sq . in q. 21. ●1 . d●sp . ●6 . aqui● 2 , 2. q ● art . 7. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} justin . apo● , 2 2. obs. 1. hos. 11. 8 , 9. obser. 3. 2. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . ●●yrillus herol , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . revel. 13. 17. vse 1. britanoram inaccessa romanis locd , christo vero subdita . tertul. vse 2. britannian in christianam consentire religionem , o●●gen . hom. 4. in ezek. niceph. lib. 2. cap. 40. epist. eleuth . ad lucium , an , 16● . apud bar. anno 469. the saxons entred . nunc igitur si ● ▪ ominis edium ●st ▪ quis romirum reatus ? quae a●cu●atio vocabulo●●m ? nisi av● barbarum sonat aliqu● vox nominis , aut maledicum aut impudi●um . tertul. apol. ●d gen. cap. 3. see canterburian self-conviction , see ld dee . cell . &c. 2. coal from the altar . altare christianum . antedotum linco●n . case of greg. 3. 2. sapieatior sis socr●te ; doctior augustino , &c. clavinianus si modo dicare clam vel propalam , mox tartaris , moscis , afrus , turcisque saevientibus & jacc●is excaecratior , &c. 3. romes master-piece . royall favourite . vse . 2 non libertate gratiam , sed gratia libertatem consequimur . aug. de correp . & g●l . cap. 8. ezek 36. 26. acts 16. 14. p●il . 1. 39. & 2 , 13. vse ● gildas de excid . britanniae , omnia quae deo placebant & displicebāt aequali lance , pendebantur , non igitur admirandum est degeneres tales patria●illam am●ttere , quam praedicto modo maculabant . hist. m. s. apud foxum . obs. 3. ge● 30 1. gen. 35. 18. gen. 21. 16. gen. 15. 2. 2 king. 4. 13 , 14. gen. 3. 8. matth. 6. 23. luk. 1. 79. act. 26. 18. rom. 2. 19. ephes. 5. 8. col 1. 13. 1 pet. 1. 9. nomē iesu non erat ibi . joh. 6. 50. revel. 2. 17. joh. 4. 14. cant. 4. 1● . joh. 7. 37 , 38. 1 cor. 1. 30. paura igitur de christo . tertul. joh. 14. 5. joh. 1 3 , 4 , 5. ephes. 4. 18. mat. 7. 26 , 27. matth. 16 18. psal. 4. 6. psal. 42. 1 , 2. psal. 84. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , &c. revel. 6. 16. matth. 22. 13. luk. 16. 24. mark . 9. 43 , 44. isa. 66. 24. revel. 3. 17. josh. 10. 18. ego propero ad inferot , nec est ut aliquid pro me agas : advocatus quidam moriens apud bel. de arte mor lib. 2. cap. 10. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} vse 1. vse 2. vse 3. notes for div a90296e-32070 laudatur ab his , culpatur ab illis . see august . ep. 7. 28. 157. de orig. anim . — deferri in vicun vendentem thus & odores , & piper , & quicquid chartis amicitur ineptis . occidit miseros crambe repetita magistros . semper ego auditor tantum ? immortale odiū & nunquam sanabiic beliū , ardet adhuc , combos & tentyra , summas utrinque inde sucor culgo , quo● numina vicinorum odit uterque locus . juven. graece scire out polite loqui apud illos haeresis est : eras. de sc●olast . noli irritare crabrones , si lapidet teras nonne ignis erumpit ? ambros. lib. 1. cap. 21. prov. 30. 33. j●b 3● . 21. prov. 25. 18. vide remed. contra ●ravam , ratio 〈◊〉 germani●ae luth praesat . al lib. de concil. protest . 34. 〈…〉 . 4. conclus . that generally all writers at the beginning of the reformation . si accusasse suffic●et , quis erit innocens ? nec nos obniti contra , nec ten dere tantum sufficimus . sulo sever. epist. hist. eccles. plut. apoth. vid catal. baeret . aput tertul. de praescript . epiphan. aug. vincent . ●go ancillae tuae fidem ●a bui , nonne tu imp●den● , qui nec mihi ipsi credis ? philos. apud plut . apoth. nunc vero ●i nominis odium ●st , quis nominum reatus ? quae accusatio vocabulorum ? nisi aut barbarum sonat aliqua vox ●ominis ▪ aut maledicum , aut impud cum ? tertul apol. act. 24. 14. & 28. 22. haeresis christi . anorum . tertul secta christ . id . ●aeresit catholice , & haeresi● sancti●●ma , constant . epist. chr. syrac . mislenta systema : quo probare conatur calvinianos esse ●aeretices . hu● . calv. tur andrews epist ad moli●ae . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} pind , od. 10. oli●a . 〈◊〉 animadversions on the eight theses laid down, and the inferences deduced from them in a discourse entitl'd church-government part v, lately printed at oxford smalridge, george, 1663-1719. 1687 approx. 148 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 37 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2003-01 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a60381 wing s4001 estc r19272 11760020 ocm 11760020 48656 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a60381) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 48656) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-177 ; 548:6 or 649:22) animadversions on the eight theses laid down, and the inferences deduced from them in a discourse entitl'd church-government part v, lately printed at oxford smalridge, george, 1663-1719. [4], 68 p. printed at the theater, oxford : 1687. attributed to george smalridge. cf. dnb. this item is also bound with "church-government" (wing w3440) and "reflections on the historical part of church-government, part v" (wing s4003 -entry cancelled in wing 2nd ed.) at reel 649:22. reproduction of original in the university of illinois (urbana-champaign campus). library. entry for s4001 cancelled in wing (2nd ed.). created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng r. h., 1609-1678. -church government. -part v. -relation of the english reformation. church polity. 2000-00 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2002-01 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2002-03 tcp staff (michigan) sampled and proofread 2002-03 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2002-04 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion animadversions on the eight theses laid down , and the inferences , deduced from them , in a discourse entitl'd church-government . part . v. lately printed at oxford . they went out from us , because they were not of us : for if they had been of us , they would 〈◊〉 no doubt have continu'd with us ; but they went out that they may be made manifest , that they were not all of us. 1 joh. 2. 19. oxford , printed at the theater . anno 1687. imprimatur . io. venn vice-can . oxon. iun. 2. 1687. to the university reader . these papers neither have , nor need any other recommendation , then that of the cause which they maintain . they are extorted by the importunity of those adversaries , who have endeavour'd to wound us in all our nearest concerns , the honour of our university , the autority of our church , and the rights of our sovereign . the laborious author of the discourses spar'd no pains to shake the foundations of our religion ; and the designing publisher has with no inconsiderable expence , endeavoured a farther advantage from them , by casting a reproach npon these seminaries of our education . but it is justly hop'd , that their designs against the university will prove as successless as their attempts on the church ; of which we know , that tho' the rains descend , the flouds come , and the winds blow , yet it cannot fall , for it is founded upon a rock . the hopes of our enemies abroad have been entertain'd , and the solicitude of our friends awaken'd by the news of our oxford converts daily flocking into the bosom of the roman church . but we hope all men are by this time convinc'd that they deserve as little consideration for their number , as they do regard for their accomplishments . no one need to be alarm'd at the desertion of six or seven members , who shall consider their dependence on one who by the magazines , which he had stor'd up against us , shews that he has not now first chang'd his complexion , but only let fall the vizour . nor ought we more to regard the insinuations of those , who tell us of the secret promises of such as have not openly profest , as having no other ground but the confidence of the reporters . but be it as it will , god covers us with his feathers , and under his wings will we trust ; we will neither be afraid of the arrow that flieth by day , nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness : but we least of all fear any danger from this praesent attempt of our author , since the regal power seems engag'd with our church in one common defence ; for she is no farther concern'd in this present controversie , then as she is accus'd to have been too great a friend to the praerogative of the crown . and certainly that doctrine which invades the just rights of the prince , can hope but for few proselytes amongst those , who have constantly defended them in their writings , asserted them in their decrees , and upon all occasions vindicated them with their swords . for we do not lie open to the imputation of a condition'd and distinguishing loyalty , who have shew'd our readiness to imitate the glorious examples of our fathers , and were prepar'd ( had not god's good providence prevented our service ) to have transcrib'd that copy lately at sedgmore , which they set us formerly at edge-hill . and in truth our steady fidelity to the prince is so unquestionable , that our enemies have been pleas'd to ridicule what they could uot deny , and have made passive obedience bear a part in our character , when the muse has been inclin'd to satyr . as for our author and his theses there is nothing here advanc'd which was not in king edwards time fully answer'd by protestant writers ; and had he written in henry the 8th's reign , he might have receiv'd a reply from a roman catholic convocation ; so vain is it to urge us now with the stale pretences of a forreign iurisdiction , which our ancestors of the roman communion ejected with so universal a consent , and which our fathers of the reformation resisted even unto death ; i mean those glorious prelates , who here dying seal●d the truth of our religion with their blood , and left it as a legacy to us their children , by us to be convey'd to the generations yet to come . animadversions on the eight theses &c. as that person , who would prove himself a genuine son of the church of england , had need of more sincerity then this editor shew'd , whilst he profest to be of her communion ; so one , who has the ambition of appearing a potent enemy against her , had need of greater strength then he has either produc'd of his own , or borrow'd from others , since he has been her declar'd adversary . had he continued still to dissemble his faith , and affected an aequilibrium betwixt both churches , his writings would have been more suitable to such a character ; where the attentive reader will find the church of england but weakly attacq'd , and that of rome as faintly vindicated . but since some motives have prevail'd with him to assume the name of another church , as that which he has left has no great cause to lament the loss of such a member , so that which he would seem to have fled to will have little reason to boast that she has gain'd a proselyte . for how plausibly soever he may discourse of church-autority , he abounds in too great a plerophory of his own sense , to submit himself either to a convocation at home , or council abroad ; and altho' he would appear an enemy to luther , he seems at this very time to be drawing up a novell scheme of doctrines , and modelling to himself a new church . hence it is that in one of his treatises he has deserted the antient plea of transubstantiation , upon which the tridentine fathers founded their adoration of the host ; and from which all the great champions of that church have constantly deduc'd it . hence his modifying the council's sacramentum into res sacramenti , his prescinding from the symbols , his certain inferior cult only due to them , his stripping them even of the schoolmens latricall , qualified , secondary , improper , accidental co-adoration ; and such other his abstractive notions of that worship , as do indeed befit a nominal philosopher , but have no agreement with the avowed doctrines and practises of the roman communion . hence it is that in the discourse we are now upon , we read nothing of the dominus deus papa of the canonists ; nothing of the vicar of christ ; the holy , apostolick , and infallible see which their former writers have endeavour'd to establish iure divino ; nothing of the supreme pastour , governour and head of christ's church , the successor of s. peter , and other titles which even our representers of late ( whose business it hath been to mollifi● ) have furnish'd us with ; no not so much as of the modest bishop of meaux's primacy of s. peter's chair and common center of catholic unity ; but instead of these we are told of a western patriarch , one who pleads the prescription of some years for his autority , and thinks himself hardly dealt with , that because he claims more then his due , that which is his due should be denyed him . hence it seems to be that he is so wary in giving us his own opinions ; that he disputes so much , and affirms so little ; that he bounds all his positions with so many limitations that they seem contriv'd on purpose for subterfuges ; and that he very cautiously ventures not any farther then he thinks , tho' falsly , the autority of our writers will bear him out . hence those concessions ( which will perhaps by that party be judg'd over-liberall ) that images , and so the veneration or worship of them were very seldom , if at all , us'd in the primitive church . that the publick communion was then most commonly , if not allways , administred in both kinds unto the people . that the divine service which then , as now , was celebrated usually in the latin or greek tongue , was much better in those days then now understood of the common people . that the having the liturgy , or divine service , or the holy scriptures in a known tongue is not prohibited , nor the using of images enjoyn'd ; nor the priest's administring , and the people's receiving the communion in both kinds , if the supreme church-governours so think fit ( and we say they ill discharge the office of church-governours , who do not think fit our saviours institution should be observ'd ) declar'd unlawful by any canon of any council . ancient council he means , for latter councils have declar'd these unlawful . these are large grants from a romanist , and which give a great shock to their so much magnified pretence of universal tradition . had this author liv'd in those ages when the secular prince countenanc'd the beginnings of reformation , he would have scarce lost any thing for his too rigorous adhaesion to the c. of rome . for he thinks it probable that had the reformation only translated the former church liturgies and scriptures into a known tongue ; administred communion in both kinds , thought fit not to use images ; changed something of practise only without any decession from the churches doctrines , the church-governours would have been facile to license these . where by the way it seems something unintelligible how they should change practice without decession from doctrines , if doctrines enjoyn'd such practices , and if according to him , errours in practice allways presuppose some errour in matter of faith. but at least we may expect he would have outwardly complied , since he notes , that some outward compliance at the first , of those bishops , who made an open opposition afterward , might be upon a fair pretence , because the first acts of the reformation might not be so insupportable as the latter . where it is worth our observing , that the very first act , which gave life to the reformation , was shaking off all manner of obedience to the see of rome , then which i believe his holiness , contrary to this author's sentiments , thinks no act more unsupportable . these things consider'd , we could not have had a more easie adversary then this gentleman , and the church has less reason to fear his open opposition , then had he still continued in her bosom . for it seems not to be his province to publish what is material against us , but to publish much. but , god be thanked , our religion is not establish'd upon so weak a basis , as to be overthrown by a few theses unprov'd , and falsly applied . nor is it any wonder if that arguer doth not convince , who uses for principles conclusions drawn from praemisses , which the world never saw , and then assumes such things as every one acquainted with history is able to contradict . certainly his university-readers will not be very fond of the conclusion of that syllogism , whose major is a petitio principii , & minor a down-right fals-hood in matter of fact . they no doubt are surpriz'd to find consequents come before their antecedents , and church-government part the 5th to have stept into the world ( somewhat immaturely methinks ) before the other four . but the lawfulness of the english reformation was to be examin'd , and it would have took up too much time to shew why he impos'd upon us such a test. it might therefore be thought seasonable enough to examin the truth of his theses , when he shall be pleas'd to communicate to us whence they are inferr'd . in the meanwhile , it may not be unuseful to consider what disservice he had done to our cause , had his success aequal'd the boldness of his attempt . after all his theses and their applications , his correspondent alpha's and beta's , his perplex'd paragraphs , his intricate paratheses , and his taedious citations , what doctrine of the church of rome has he establish'd , or what principle of ours has he disprov'd ? should we grant that the clergy only have power in controversies of religion , that the secular prince has no autority to reform errours in the church , that our princes did wrongfully usurp such an autority , and that our reformation was not the act of the clergy ; will it hence follow ( which yet is to be prov'd by this author , e're he can perswade us to entertain any favourable opinion of popery ) that the second commandment ought to be expung'd out of the decalogue ? that idolatry is no sin ? or worshipping of images no idolatry ? that transubstantiation is to be believ'd in despight of sense , reason , scripture , and antiquity ? the service of god to be administred in an unknown tongue , as it were in mere contradiction to saint paul ? and the communion to be celebrated in one kind notwithstanding our saviours , drink ye all of this . it is indeed our happiness , that the reformation was carried on by the joynt concurrence of the civil and ecclesiastical power ; that we are united together by common rules for government and worship agree'd on by the bishops and presbyters in convocation , and made laws to us by the autority of the sovereign : we are allways ready to prove that the church of england being a national church , and not subject to any forreign jurisdiction , ow'd no obedience to the bishop or church of rome , & therefore might without their leave reform her self , and that accordingly our religion is establish'd by such laws as want no autority either civil or ecclesiastical , which they ought to have . this is a plea which we shall be allways prepar'd to justifie ; and a blessing for which we thank god , and for the continuance of which we shall never cease to pray . but now had those which we esteem corruptions of the roman church never been cast out , or were they reestablish'd ( which god in his mercy forbid ) by as good autority as that by which they are now abolish'd ; yet even then we could not submit to such determinations , and being concluded by an antecedent obligation to god durst not obey even lawful autority commanding unlawful things . he therefore that would gain a proselyte , who acts upon prudent and conscientious principles , in vain entertains him with schemes of church-government , since the things contested are such as no government in the world can make lawful ; it would be more rational to shew ( were not that an attempt long since despair'd of ) that the particular doctrines and practises to which we are invited , are agreeable to the word of god ; or that it doth not concern us , whether they be , or not . for if either it may be prov'd , that the errours of the church of rome were so great , that there was a necessity of reforming them , that every national church has a right to reform her self , that this right of the church of england in particular was unquestionable , that she us'd no other then this her lawful right , and that accordingly the reformation was effected by the major part of the then legal church-governours : or if in failure or this ( which yet we say is far from being our case ) it may be prov'd , that where evident necessity requires , and the prevailing errours are manifest , there the civil power may lawfully reform religion without the concurrence of the major part of the clergy , for secular interests averse from reformation ; or if lastly , supposing no such reformation made by lawful authority , but the laws which enjoyn such erroneous doctrines , remaining in their full force and vigour , every private christian can plead an exemption from his obedience to them , by proving them evidently contradictory to the known laws of god ; if any one of these pleas are valid , all which have by our writers been prov'd to be so beyond the possibility of a fair reply , then nothing which is aim'd at in these papers can affect us , and tho' the author would have shew'd more skill in proving his question , yet he had still betray'd his want of prudence in the choice of it . by what hath been sayd , the reader will be induc'd to think that these papers do not so much concern the church of england , as the state ; and that a reply to them is not so properly the task of a divine , as of a lawyer . the civil power is indeed manifestly struck at , and an answer might easily be fetcht from keble and coke . he may perswade himself that he acts craftily , but certainly he acts very inconsistently , who erects a triumphal statue to his prince , and at the same time undermines his autority ; in monumental inscriptions gives him the glorious and astonishing title of optimus maximus , and yet sets up a superiour power to his . if neither loyalty nor gratitude could perswade him to speak more rever●ntly , yet out of wariness he ought to have been more cautious in laying down such things , as seem to have an ill aspect on his majesties proceedings . for it may seem very rash to deny , that the prince can remove from the exercise of his office any of his clergy for not obeying his decisions in matters of a spiritual nature , when a reverend prelate suffers under such a sentence ; to assert that the prince , ought not to collate to benefices , where the clergy have canonical exceptions against the person nominated , whilst a friend of his thus qualified enjoys the benefit of such a collation ; to find fault with the reformers that they gave their prince leave to dispense with laws and constitutions ecclesiastical , when he himself is in that case most graciously dispens'd with . how far the regal power extends it self in these cases , especially as it may be limited by the municipal laws of the realm , i am not so bold as to determine ; but where such rights are claim'd by the sovereign , and actually exercis'd , there it becomes not the modesty of a private subject to be so open and liberal in condemning them . but then above all he renders his loyalty justly questionable , when he tells us it is disputed by the roman doctors , and leaves it a question , whether in case that a prince use his coactive jurisdiction in spiritual matters against the definitions of the church , then the pope hath not also virtually some temporal coactive power against the prince ? namely to dissolve the princes coactive power , or to authorise others to use a coactive power , against such a prince in order to the good of the church ? now i appeal to the judicious reader , whether the substance of that infamous libel , which was part of a late * traytour's indictment , and which was written by way of polemical discourse , as he pleaded , might not if manag'd by this author's pen have been thus warily exprest ; whether in case that a prince use his coactive jurisdiction in civil matters against acts of parliament , then the parliament hath not also virtually some temporal coactive power against the prince ; namely , to dissolve the princes coactive power , or to authorize others to use a coactive power against such a prince in order to the good of the state ? such bold problems as these ought not to be left undecided ; and one who had any zeal for his prince , would scarce let the affirmative side of the quaestion pass without affixing a brand on it . these expressions among others he might well be conscious would be offensive to any sir of known fidelity and loyalty to his prince ; and therefore such person 's good opinion was to be courted in an epistle apologetick● but certainly it was expected that the kind sir should read no farther then the epistle ; for if he did , he would find himself miserably impos'd upon . the author in this epistle praeacquaints him with these things . 1. that there is nothing touch'd in this discourse concerning the temporal prince his supreme power in such matters , as it is dubious whether they be spiritual or temporal , but only in things which are purely spiritual and ecclesiastical . 2. that he knows not of any ecclesiastical powers in this discourse denied to the prince , but which , or at least the chiefest of which , all other christian princes except those of the reformed states do forego to exercise . 3. nor of any , but which the kings of england have also foregone before henry the eighth . now i shall humbly beg leave to undeceive the unknown sir , and to represent to him that in all these he is misinform'd . as to the first , 1. that there is nothing touch'd in this discourse concerning the temporal prince his supreme power in such matters as it is dubious whether they be spiritual or temporal but only such as are purely spiritual and ecclesiastical . now if by dubious he means such things as he does not doubt , but they are spiritual , then this doth not reach our case ; because we may doubt whether some things are not temporal , which he doubts not but they are spiritual ; but if by dubious he means such things as are doubted by no body but that they are purely spiritual , then are we agreed ; since neither do we allow the temporal prince any power in things of which we our selves doubt not but they are purely spiritual . that there are some powers merely spiritual , appropriated to the clergy and incommunicable to the prince , no true son of the church of england will deny ; but now altho' the substance of those powers be immediately from god , and not from the king , as those of preaching , ordaining , absolving &c. yet whether these are not subject to be limited , inhibited , or otherwise regulated in the outward exercise of them by the laws of the land , and the autority regal is the thing quaestion'd . this cannot perhaps be better exprest then in the words of the reverend bp. sanderson ; the king doth not challenge to himself as belonging to him by virtue of his supremacy ecclesiastical the power of ordaining ministers , excommunicating scandalous offenders , or doing any other act of episcopal office in his own person ; nor the power of preaching , administring the sacraments , or doing any other act of ministerial office in his own person : but leaves the performance of all such acts of either sort unto such persons , as the said several respective powers do of divine right belong to , viz. of the one sort to the bishops , and of the other to the priests . * yet doth the king by virtue of that supremacy challenge a power as belonging to him in the right of his crown , to make laws as well concerning preaching , administring the sacraments , and other acts belonging to the function of a priest , as concerning ordination of ministers , proceeding in matters of ecclesiastical cognisance in the spiritual courts , and other acts belonging to the function of a bishop : to which laws as well the priests , as the bishops are subject , and ought to submit to be limited and regulated thereby in the exercise of those their several respective powers ; their claim to a ius divinum , and that their said several powers are of god notwithstanding . now to apply this ; that the deciding controversies of faith , and excommunicating offenders , &c. are the proper province of the clergy , we deny not ; but that the indicting synods in order to such matters , or making laws to regulate the exercise of them are purely spiritual , is not so undoubted as he would perswade us . again , that the spiritual autority which is to be exercised in the episcopal or sacerdotal functions can be derived from none but those spiritual persons who were invested with that autority , and power of delegating it to others , is willingly allow'd ; but that collation to benefices can be the act of none but the clergy will not be hence infer'd . for the spiritual autority it self , and the application of it to such an object are very different things . the power by which a clergy man is capacitated for his function is derived from the bishop which ordains him ; but the applying this power to such a place , the ordering that the ecclesiastical person shall execute that autority which he deriv'd from the church in such a peculiar part of the kingdom is not without the reach of the civil jurisdiction ; and therefore collation to benefices ( in the sence this author understands it ) should not have been reckon'd by him amongst those things of which it is not doubted but they are purely spirituall . another power of which he abridges the prince , and by consequence would have to be esteem'd purely spiritual , is the deposing from the exercise of their office in his dominions any of the clergy for transgressing of the ecclesiastical canons . now that the secular prince should have an obligation from god over all persons in all spiritual matters to bind them by temporal punishments to the obedience of the churches or clergy's determinations , and decrees ( as he words it ) and yet that the exercising this power , their performing what they are obliged to by god , should be without the reach of their autority , seems to me a paradox . that the christian emperors in the primitive times challeng'd such a power is plain from the undoubted testimony of the learned petrus de marca . * who tells us , that by the care of christian princes , hereticks were represt , the contumacy of bishops and clergy-men against the decrees of synods punish'd , and bishops restrain'd from oppressing their subjects by the violation of the canons . if we inquire how the princes secur'd the keeping of the canons ; * he tells us they did it by these 2 methods . 1st . by delegating magistrates to see they were observ'd . 2ly . by punishing those who were guilty of the breach of them . and he particularly mentions deprivation inflicted by the secular power for violation of the canons . * for that , they thought removal from the see within the reach of their jurisdiction , tho' not degradation , which is a punishment merely ecclesiastical . ( which neither did the reforming princes ever think in their power to inflict . ) and he * there gives instances of bishops so depriv'd . and indeed this seems to be a necessary branch of power , which naturally flows from his being custos canonum , which he is prov'd by this author at large to be . how far the prince may abridge himself of this power by the laws of the land , i meddle not ; it suffices to shew that it is not originally a power merely spirituall . and from this and the former instances the reader will be able to judge the truth of that assertion , that there is nothing touch'd in this discourse concerning such matters , as it is dubious whether they be spiritual , or temporal . come we now to that other assertion of his , that he knows not of any ecclesiastical powers in this discourse denied to the prince but which ( or at least the chiefest of which ) all other christian princes except those of the reformed states do forego to exercise . now if by the chiefest , which he excepts , he means preaching the word , and administring the sacraments , excommunicating , and absolving ; neither do the reformed states challenge the exercise of these ; and as for others it will appear that the princes of the roman-catholick communion extend their supermacy as far as the reformed . and here it may not be improper to instance in that right which the kings of spain enjoy in sicily , which seems to extend even to those spiritual powers which our author calls the chiefest . * and this i find usher'd in by a roman-catholick writer with an assertion quite opposite to that which is laid down in this epistle . it even surpasses ( saith he ) that which henry the eighth of england boldly took when he separated from the church of rome . the king of spain as king of sicily pretends to be legate à latere , and born legate of the h. see ; so that he and his viceroys in his absence have the same power over the sicilians as to the spiritual that a legate à latere could have . and therefore they who execute that jurisdiction of sicily for the king of spain have power to absolve , punish , and excommunicate all sorts of persons , whether laicks or ecclesiasticks , monks , priests , abbots , bishops , and even cardinals themselves , that reside in the kingdom . they acknowledge not the popes autority , being sovereign monarchs as to the spiritual . they confess that the pope hath heretofore given them that priviledge : ( so that his holiness it seemes thought even those chiefest powers of the church alienable ) but at the same time they pretend that it is not in his power to recall it ; and so they acknowledge not the pope for head , to whose tribunal no appeal can be made because their king has no superiour , as to the spiritual . moreover this right of superiority is not consider'd as delegate , but proper ; and the king of sicily or they who hold jurisdiction in his place , and who are lay-men take the title of beatissimo & santissimo padre attributing to themselves in effect in respect of sicily what the pope takes to himself in regard of the whole church ; and they preside in provincial councils . as for the title of head of the church which taken by the reformers so much offends our discourser , this critical historian farther observes ; it was matter of great astonishment that in our age queen elizabeth took the title of head of the church of england . but seeing in the kingdom of sicily , the female succeeds as well as in england , a princess may take the title of head of the church of sicily , and of beatissimo & santissimo padre . nay it hath happen'd so already in the time of iean of arragon & castile the mother of charles the 5th : so that this critick concludes that it may be said there are two popes , and two sacred colledges in the church , to wit , the pope of rome , and the pope of sicily , to whom also may be added the pope of england . what jurisdiction spiritual the king of france challenges will best be learnt from the liberties of the gallican church , publish'd by the learned pitthaeus and to be found in his works . two of them which seem to come home to our purpose are these . * the most christian king hath had power at all times according to the occurrences and necessity's of his own affairs , to assemble or cause to be assembled synods or councils provincial and national ; and therein to treat not only of such things as tend to the preservation of his state , but also of affairs which concern the order and discipline of the church in his own dominions ; and therein to make rules , chapters , laws , ordinances , and pragmatick sanctions in his own name and by his own autority . many of which have been received among the decrees of the catholique church , and some of them approv'd by general councils . * the pope cannot send a legat à latere into france , with power to reform , judge , collate , or dispence , or do such other things which use to be specified in the bull of his legation , except it be upon the defire or with the approbation of the most christian king. neither can the said legate execute his office untill he hath promised the king in writing under his seal , and sworn by his holy orders , that he will not use the said legantine power in his kingdom , countreys , lands and dominions any longer then it shall please the king ; and that so soon as he is admonish'd of the kings pleasure to the contrary he will cease and forbear ; and that whilst he doth use it , it shall be no otherwise exercis'd then according to the consent of and in conformity to the king , without attemping any thing to the prejudice of the decrees of general councils , the franchises , liberties , and priviledges of the gallican church , and the universities , and publique estates of the realm . and to this end they shall present the letters of their legation to the court of parliament , where they shall be view'd , verified , publish'd and registred with such modifications as that court shall think fit for the good of the realm ; and all processes shall proceed according to such restrictions , and no otherwise . in these two liberties , we find the autority of the french king farther extended , and the papal power more limited , then our author can be contented the regal jurisdiction should be enlarg'd , and the patriarchal confined by the reformed . what power the most christian king claims in confirming canons we may learn from petrus de marca * who lays it down for a rule which never fails , that the deliberations of the gallican church can be look'd upon no otherwise then as counsel given to the king ; and that they cannot be put in execution without his consent and confirmation . and he there saith , that the king may praeside in councils as * head. * and in another place proposing to himself this quaestion , * whether , since the supreme protection of the canons doth belong to the king , it thence follows that he can command that they be observ'd without expecting the sentence of the gallican church ? he answers , * that it is indeed certain that the observation of them will be the more sacred , if they be made with the universal consent of the clergy , because every one desires that that should take place , which he himself approves of : but then , that it is aequally certain , that the king with the advice of his council , may by his edicts decree , that the canons be observ'd , and may add such modes and circumstances as are necessary for the better execution of them , and accommodate them to the interest of the state. this autority he confirms from the examples of the first christian emperors , and the former french kings , and adds expresly * that the most christian kings still use that right . and now methinks the revising of the canons by the kings of england , especially when humbly besought to do it by the clergy , should not be an invasion of the churches rights , when the french kings even without such interposition of the church , exercise the same right , and yet do , according to our auther , leave to the management of the clergy all power in spirituals . i might here insist upon collation of benefices , which the french kings challenge by right of the regale ; but i shall choose rather to mention the assembling of councils , because a french king in the last century seems to have doubted whether his clergy might convene without his consent ; as appears from that bold speech of his embassadour in the council of trent , which because it gives us some insight into the freeness of that synod , i shall beg leave to transcribe the latter part of it from goldastus * we refuse to be subject to the command of pius the 4th , all his judgments and decrees we refuse , reject , and contemn ; and although , most holy fathers , your religion , life , and learning was ever and ever shall be of great autority with us , yet seeing you do nothing , but all things are manag'd rather at rome , then at trent ; and the things that are here publish'd are rather the placita of pius the 4th , then the decrees of the council of trent , we denounce and protest here before you all , that whatsoever things are decree'd in this assembly by the will and pleasure of pius , neither the most christian king will ever approve , nor the french church ever acknowledge for the decrees of an oecumenical council . in the mean time the most christian king commands all you his arch-bishops , bishops , abbots , doctors , and divines to depart hence ; then to return , when it shall please god to restore to his catholick church the ancient methods and liberty of general councils , and to the most christian king his honour and dignity . now i leave it to the reader to judge whether any reformed states ever assumed to themselves greater autority over the ecclesiasticks , then this r. catholick prince , or whether ever any protestant exprest himself with greater warmth concerning this council , then that protesting embassador . it might be easie to shew how much power the venetian republick exercises in spirituals , had not this been done so lately by another pen. but what hath been said may suffice to evince , that this epistolographer impos'd upon the credulity of his sir , when he told him , that he knew of no ecclesiastical powers denied to the prince but which ( or at least the chiefest of which ) all other christian princes , except those of the reformed state , do forego to exercise . but our discourser perhaps presum'd his friend a stranger to sorreign affairs , and therefore thought he might the more securely use a latitude in his treating of those ; it remains therefore to examine whether he has been a more faithful relator of our own history , and what truth there is in his last epistolary assertion , that he knows not of any ecclesiastical powers in this discourse denied to the prince , but what the kings of england have foregone before henry the 8th . now whatever in relation to a power in spirituals is in this discourse accus'd of nov●lty seems easily reducible to these two heads : 1st . a supremacy in causes ecclesiastical denied to the western patriarch : as appears by our princes taking away all manner of forreign jurisdiction , prohibiting all appeals to the see of rome , all bulls from it , and in generall all intercourse with it . 2ly . the same supremacy invested in the sovereign ; as appears by king henry's assuming the title of head of the church ; by the kings making ecclesiastical laws ; by that synodical act of the clergy not to assemble or promulgate any canons without his leave ; by that power granted to the king to visit ecclesiastical persons , and to reform errours and heresies ; by his collating to benefices without consent of the clergy ; and by hindring excommunications in foro externo . now in answer to this charge of novelty ; it is confest that the pope did for some years usurp such a superiority ; but then , as it is granted that he did de facto claim such a power , so that it did de jure belong to him is denied ; and not only so , but farther we affirm , that he neither from the beginning challenged such a power , nor was he afterwards in so full possession of it , but that our princes have upon occasion vindicated their own right against all papal , or , if he pleaseth , patriarchal encroachments . and here waving the dispute of right i shall confine my self to matter of fact , that being the only case here controverted . where 1st of the supremacy of the western patriarch . that when austin came over to convert the saxons , no such supremacy was acknowledg'd by the british christians is evident from the celebrated answer of dinoth abbot of bangor to austin requiring such subjection . notum sit vobis &c. * be it known unto you that we are all subject and obedient to the church of god , and the pope of rome ; but so as we are also to every good & pious christian , viz. to love every one in his degree and place , in perfect charity , and to help every one by word and deed , to attain to be the sons of god ; and for other obedience i know none due to him whom you call the pope , and as little do i know by what right he can challenge to be father of fathers . as for us we are under the rule of the bishop of caerleon upon uske , who is to overlook and govern us under god. this is farther manifest from the * british clergy twice refusing in full synod after mature deliberation to own any such subjection . that appeals to rome were a thing unheard of till anselms time appears from the application of the bishops and barons to him to disswade him from such an attempt ; * telling him it was a thing unheard of in this kingdom , that any of the peers , and especially one in his station should praesume any such thing . that legates from rome were for 1100 years unheard of in this kingdom , we may learn from a memorable passage in the same historian concerning the arch-bishop of vienna reported to have the legantine power over england granted him a. c. 1100 * the news of which being come to england was very surprizing to all people , every one knowing it was a thing unheard of , that any one should have apostolical jurisdiction over them , but the arch-bishop of canterbury . and the event of that legacy was suitable , * for as he came , so he return'd , being taken by no one for a legate , nor in any thing discharging the office of a legate . that the church of canterbury own'd no superiour bishop to her own but christ , appears from her being call'd , * omnium nostrum mater communis sub sponsi sui iesu christi dispositione ; and in another place , mater omnium anglicanarum ecclesiarum , quae suo post deum proprio laetatur pastore . that appeals to rome were prohibited in king henry the 2ds time is manifest from the famous capitula of clarendon , amongst which this is one article . if any appeals shall happen they ought to proceed from the arch-deacon to the bishop , and from the bishop to the arch-bishop , and if the arch bishop shall fail in doing justice , the last address is to be made to the king. that doctrines prejudicial to the popes power were then publickly maintain'd , appears from these propositions amongst others censur'd by becket . 1st . that none might appeal to the see apostolick on any account without the kings leave . 2d . that it might not be lawful for an arch-bishop or bishop to depart the kingdom and come at the popes summons without the kings leave . 3d. that no bishop might excommunicate any who held of the king in capite , nor interdict his officers without the kings leave . which propositions so censur'd are selected out of the capitula of clarendon ; to the observation of which all the arch-bishops , bishops , and other ecclesiasticks ( even becket himself amongst the rest , tho● afterwards falling of ) had oblig'd themselves by a solemn oath , acknowledging them to be the customs of the king's predecessours ; to wit , henry the 1st his grandfather , and others , and that they ought to be kept inviolable by all . to what party the bishops were inclin'd in these differences betwixt the king and becket we cannot better learn then from baronius , whose severe animadversion on these praelates , ( wherein● he teaches us what kings are to expect if they displease his holiness , and how dreadful his fulminations be when they come out with full apostolick vigour ) the reader may peruse in the * margin . a like warm expostulation upon these proceedings we meet with in stapleton ( de tribus thomis , in thoma cant. ) * what did this henry the 2d tacitly demand , but that which henry the 8th afterwards openly usurp'd , viz. to be supreme head of the church of england ? and again * what was this , but that the king of england should be pope over his own subjects ? so that according to this author , henry the 8th was not the first of that name who pretended to be supreme head of the church . it would be too tedious here to recite the several statutes made in succeeding reigns against the popes encroachments , viz. the 35 of edw. 1 25 edv. 3. stat. de provisoribus . 27 ed. 3. c. 1. 38 ed. 3. c. 1. 2. 4. stat . 2. 2 ric. 2. c. 3. 12 r. 2. c. 15. 13 r. 2. stat . 2. cap. 2. 16 r. 2. c. 5. 2 hen. 4. cap. 3. 2 hen. 4. cap. 4. 6 hen. 4. cap. 1. which speaks of horrible mischiefs and a damnable custom brought in of new in the court of rome . 7 hen. 4. cap. 6. 8. 9 hen. 4. cap. 8. 3 h. 5. c. 4. which see collected by rastal under the title of provision and praemunire . fol. 325. it may suffice to add the opinion of our * lawyers that the article of the 25 of hen. 8. c. 19. concerning the prohibition of appeals to rome is declaratory of the ancient laws of the realm ; * and accordingly the laws made by king henry the 8th for extinguishing all forreign power are said to have been made for the restoring to the crown of this realm the ancient right and iurisdictions of the same . which rights are destructive of the supremacy of the pope , as will farther appear by our 2d inquiry , how far the regal power extended in causes ecclesiasticall ? where 1st . as to the title of head of the church , we find that * king edgar was reputed , and wrote himself pastor pastorum , the vicar of christ , and by his laws and canons assur'd the world he did not in vain assume those titles ; * that our forefathers stil'd their kings patrons defenders , governours , tutors , and protectors of the church . and the king's regimen of the church is thus exprest by king edward the confessor in his laws . rex quia vicarius summi regis est , ad hoc est constitutus , ut re●num terrenum , & populum domini , & super omnia sanctam veneretur ecclesiam ejus , & regat , & ab injuri●sis de●endat . leg. edv. conf. apud lamb. where it is plain that he challenges the power of governing the church as being the vicar of god , so that it was but an artifice in pope nicholas the second to confer on the same king as a priviledge delegated by him , what he claim'd as a right deriv'd immediately from god * . to you ( saith that pope to the confessor ) and your successours , the kings of england we commit the advowson of that place , and power in our stead to order things with the advice of your bishops . where by the way if we may argue ad hominem this concession gives the king of england as much right to the supremacy over this church , as a like grant from another pope to the earl of sicily , gives the king of spain to his spiritual monarchy over that province . but the kings of england derive their charter from a higher power . they challenge from s t. peter himself to be * supreme , and from s t. paul that * every soul should be subject to them . and the extent of their regal power may be learn'd from s t. austin who teaches us * that the divine right of kings , as such , authorizeth them to make laws not only in relation to civil affairs , but also in matters appertaining to divine religion . in pursuance of which . 2ly . as to the power of making ecclesiastical laws ; that the kings of england have made laws not only concerning the external regimen of the church , but also concerning the proper functions of the clergy , namely the keyes of order and jurisdiction , so far as to regulate the use of them and oblige the persons entrusted with them to perform their respective offices , is evident to any one , who shall think it worth his leisure to peruse such laws yet extant . a collection of the laws made by ina , alfred , edward , ethelstan , edmund , edgar , ethelred ; canutus , and others we have , publish'd by mr. lambard , in which we meet with sanctions concerning faith , baptism , sacrament of the lord's supper , bishops , priests , marriage , observance of lent , appointing of festivals , and the like . and here it may not be unseasonable to urge an autority which our editor cannot justly decline ; i mean mr. spelman jun. in his book de vita alfredi written by him in english but publish'd in latin by the master of university college in oxford , in the name of the alumni of that society . this author , speaking of the laws made by king alfred in causes ecclesiastical , makes this inference from them . * these laws do therefore deserve our particular observation , because from them it is evident that the saxon kings alfred and edward were of opinion that they had a supremacy as well over ecclesiastical persons as lay-men ; and that the church which was within their dominions was not out of their jurisdiction , or subject to a forreign power and exempted from the laws of the countrey , as becket , anselm , and others afterwards fiercely contended . and again ; * from his ( king alfred's ) laws it is evident either that the roman supremacy was not yet risen to that heighth as in after ages , so as to lessen the jurisdiction of christian princes , or if it was , yet that king alfred did not so far subject himself to it . nay so far was king alfred from paying any such subjection that we are told * he found out a way to ruine and destroy that universal empire which the romanists in those dark ages had newly founded and were hastning to finish . which is spoken in reference to his restoring the second commandment expung'd out of the decalogue , of which thus that author ; * and here it may not be pass'd over , that in reciting the decalogue , the second commandment concerning the not making of graven images was according to the use of the 2d nicene council , which was celebrated an 100 years before , in its place omitted . but that this defect might be supplied out of the context of the holy bible , after that which we call the tenth commandment , another was added to complete the just number , in these words , thou shalt not make to thy self any gods of gold ; which being added by the king himself as it doth argue the church to have been corrupt in her doctrine , so it is a testimony of the kings orthodoxy . from which one instance it is plain that , contrary to the pretensions of our author , king edward the 6th was not the 1st that took upon him to reform liturgies ; for king alfred here restores the decalogue to its primitive integrity : to judge what is agreeable to the word of god ; for he supply's the defect , which he finds in the missal , from the scriptures : to judge contrary to the determinations of the church ; for the church is here said to have been corrupt in that doctrine in which the king was orthodox ; to alter the constitutions of general councils because repugnant to the law of god ; for this omission of the commandment was ex usu secundi concilii niceni , and the worshipping of images here forbidden was introduc'd by that council which the romanists acknowledge general . these passages cited i take to be some of the perperam scripta which the publisher of that life mentions in the * praeface . and accordingly we find that whatsoever is advanc'd against the papal autority in the text is qualified in the comment , and it is plain that king alfred was a greater adversary to the power of the pope then his alumnus the annotator ; so that it is matter of surprize to find him appear in the frontispiece of this treatise of church government , who was so great an enemy to the anti-regal designs of it . 3ly . as to the power of calling synods , we need no more to clear this point then the very words of the statute by him urg'd . 25 hen. 8. c. 19. where it is said , that the kings humble and obedient subjects the clergy of the realm of england had acknowledg'd according to the truth that the convocation of the same clergy is , always hath been , and ought to be assembled only by the kings writ . which is farther evident from the ancient from of calling and dissolving synods by a writ in each case directed to the arch-bishop of canterbury , as may be seen in d r. heylin * the clergy did indeed before this act of king henry 8th promulge and execute those canons by their own autority , which they here promise not to put in execution without the king's consent . but since no such canons could be put in ure till made ; nor be made but by the clergy assembled , nor the clergy be assembled but only by the king 's writ ; this executing of canons did in effect as much before this statute as after depend upon the king's pleasure . 4ly . as for visiting ecclesiastical persons , and reforming errors and haeresies by proper delegates , this is a necessary consequence from the supremacy they challeng'd . without such a power how shall the confessor regere ecclesiam , & ab injuriosis defendere ? if such a power as this be inconsistent with the principles even of roman-catholiques , whence is it that we find articles sent from queen mary to bp. bonner to be put in execution by him and his officers within his diocess ? whence is it that we find a commission directed to some bishops to deprive the reformed bishops ? but to speak of former times , if our kings had not such a power , whence is it that in king henry the fourth's reign upon the increase of lollardy we find the clergy thus petitioning that prince in the names of the clergy and praelates of the kingdom of england , * that according to the example of his royal praedecessors he would find out some remedy for the haerefies and innovations then praevailing ? whence is it that we find a commission from that king as defender of the catholick faith to impower certain persons to seize upon haeretical books , and bring them before his council , and such as after proclamation be found to hold such opinions , to be call'd and examined before two commissioners , who were of the clergy . * 5thly . as for collation of benefices . our learned lawyers assure us that all the bishopricks are of the king's foundation , and that they were originally donative , not elective ; and that the full right of investitures was in the sovereign who signified his pleasure therein per traditionem baculi & annuli by the delivery of a ring and crosier staff to the person by him elected and nominated for that office. * accordingly we find in the statute of provisors ed. 3. a. 28. the king call'd advower paramount of all benefices which be of the advowrie of people of holy church . and it is there said , that elections were first granted by the king's progenitors upon a certain form and eondition , as to demand license of the king to choose , and after election to have his royal assent , and not in other manner . that if such conditions were not kept , the thing ought in reason to resort to its first nature . lastly as for hindring excommunications in foro externo , it is one of the articles of clarendon ; that none that hold of the king in capite nor any of his houshold servants may be excommunicated , nor their land interdicted , unless our lord the king , if he be in the kingdom , be first treated with , or his iustice , if he be abroad ; so that he may do what is right concerning him . and amongst the articuli cleri . c. 7. it is complain'd that the king's letters us'd to be directed to ordinaries that have wrapt their subjects in sentence of excommunication that they should assoil them by a certain day , or else that they do appear and answer , wherefore they excommunicated them . this short account , however imperfect , may suffice to shew that the regal power in spirituals challeng'd by king henry the 8th was not quitted by his predecessors . and if the reader desires a more full account of these things i shall refer him to dr. hammond's dispatcher dispatch'd . c. 2. sect. 5. bishop brambal's just vindication c. 4. repl. to the bishop of chalcedon c. 4. sch. guarded c. 12. sect. 3. as also to sr. roger twisden in his historical vindication of the c. of england in point of schism ; which learned author has by a through insight into history , law-books , registers , and other monuments of antiquity enabled himself to give full and ample satisfaction to every unpraejudic'd reader concerning this subject ; and to convince him that this author knew very little either of the english history or of his own book , if he knew not of any ecclesiastical powers in this discourse denied to the prince , but which were foregone by the kings of england before henry the eighth . as for what he adds , that no more supremacy in such ecclesiastical matters , as are delegated by christ to the clergy and are unalienable by them to any secular power , can belong to the princes of one time or of one nation , then do to any other prince of a former time , or a diverse nation , we willingly acknowledge it , since no such powers belong to any prince , at any time , or of any nation . but then there is a supremacy in ecclesiastical matters delegated by god to the prince , which may be invaded by a forreigner under a forg'd pretence of his being head of the church ; and here secular laws may be made for the protection of such rights , and for the punishment of those who shall either invade them , or vindicate such invasion . and that person who under praetext of maintaining the churches rights shall impugn the just autority of his sovereign may be more a disloyal subject in these days , when this authority is by the laws vindicated from forreign usurpation , then he would have been in those days , when such usurpation was tolerated , and conniv'd at . having dwelt hitherto on the epistle , and discover'd so much insincerity in that , which yet was to bespeak the reader 's good opinion of the ensuing discourse , we have no great reason to expect any fairer dealing in the prosecution of his design . and here i shall be excus'd if i be the shorter in the examination of his theses , both because they are such as being propos'd only and not prov'd , it lies in our power to accept , or reject them at pleasure ; as also because they have already undergone the censure of a noble pen , and have not been able to abide a fair tryall . some of them are so ambiguously exprest that they may be either true or false according to the different construction they are capable of . the fals-hood of others is self-evident ; but then for the better vending of these , some truths are intermix'd according to the policy of luther's antagonist observ'd by his biographer * , who , to make his bad wares saleable , diligently mixeth some small stock of good with evil , so to make this more current , and all easily swallow'd down together by the imprudent and credulous . another artifice much practis'd by our author is that he lays down his propositions in general terms , but afterwards restrains them by such limitations , which if adher'd to would make them utterly disserviceable to his cause ; but then when they come to be applied , the these are refer'd to at large without any regard to such limitations . thus when in his first thesis he has propos'd that it is not in the just power of the prince to deny giving the ministers of christ license to exercise their office , and their ecclesiastical censures in his dominions , he means he saith in general , for he meddles not with the prince , his denying some of them to do these things whilst he admits others . now if this restraint be observ'd , then all which he would establish from this thesis will come to nothing . for he will not , i believe , presume to say that the reforming princes ever laid a general interdict upon all the clergy to prohibit them the exercise of their ecclesiastical functions . this is an act which the reformation detests , and which we leave to the charitableness of the universal pastor , who by virtue of our saviour's command of pasce oves ; challenges to himself a power of depriving the flock of all spiritual food . thus again , when in his third thesis he has asserted that the secular prince cannot eject from the exercise of their office in his dominions any of the clergy , nor consequently the patriarch from any autority which he stands possest of by ecclesiastical canons , he restrains such canons to those only that cannot justly be pretended to do any wrong to the civil government . now he knows that all canons which would obtrude upon us a forreign usurp'd autority are by us pretended ( whether justly or not , they will best judge who impartially weigh our reasons ) injurious to the civil government . another limitation of this thesis is that the civil power may judge , and eject , and disauthorize spiritual persons for moral and civil misdemeanors damageable to the common-wealth ; but this limitation is forgot when from this thesis he would prove the ejection of the bishops , in queen elizabeth's time unlawful ; for their deprivation was for refusing the oath of supremacy made first by roman-catholicks in king henry the 8th's time , and reviv'd by queen elizabeth ; so that the justice of it depends merely on the right of the civil power to make oaths for the better security of their government , and to impose such penalties as are exprest in the law on the violators ; and if such refusal be damageable to the common-wealth ( as it was then judg'd ) then the deprivation of those refusers will be justifiable according to his own principles . thus again in his 8th thesis when he has laid down , that as for things of meer ecclesiastical constitution , neither national synod , nor secular power may make any new canons contrary to the ecclesiastical constitutions of former superior councils , nor reverse those formerly made by them . he restrains it to those only as neither the prince can shew some way prejudicial to his civil government , nor the national synod can shew more prejudicial to their particular church , then the same constitutions are to the rest of christian churches . ( where by the way methinks it should suffice if they were aequally prejudicial , for one church is never the less wrong'd because another suffers . ) now we desire no more then the benefit of this limitation ; for if the prince may reverse such constitutions when prejudicial to civil government , and the national synod when praejudicial to their particular church , and each of these are judges of such praejudice , ( for neither doth aequity admit , nor doth he appoint any other arbiter ) then each of these have as much power granted them as they challenge , which is only to alter such constitutions as are prejudicial to them . having praemis'd thus much in general , and caution'd the reader against this piece of sophistry , which runs through the greatest part of this discourse , i shall now proceed to a particular survey of his theses . as for the first and second , i shall at present grant him that favour which he seems to request of all his readers , i. e. suppose them to be true , and shall content my self only to examin what inferences he deduces from them . and here i cannot but commend his policy for setting his conclusions at so great a distance from his praemisses , for they are commonly such as would have by no means agreed to stand too nigh together . from his first and second thesis , that the clergy have power to determine controversies in pure matters of religion , and to judge what is divine truth , what are errors ; & that they cannot alienate this power to the secular prince ; he infers that that synodical act of the clergy in k. henry the eighth's time , whereby they promise not to assemble without the king 's writ , nor when assembled to execute any canons without the king's consent , is unlawful . now it is to be observed that the clergy neither do deny that they have a power to determine controversies in pure matters of religion , which is what the first thesis would prove ; nor do they transfer such a power on the king , which might be against the tenor of the second . the utmost which can be deduc'd hence is , that the clergy did for prudential motives limit themselves in the exercise of one branch of their spiritual power ; and it will be difficult for this author to prove that he , who has a power jure divino , may not by humane laws be limited in the use of it . husbands have a power over their wives , fathers over their children , and masters over their servants by the law of god , and yet this power may be regulated by the laws of the land. thus the priest has a power to bind and loose from our saviour's commission , and yet according to this author , before the reformation the inferior clergy might not exercise any church censure contrary to the commands of their lawful spiritual superior . thus also if a general council have power to determine matters of faith , then according to his principles they have power to convene in order to such determination , and this power of theirs is unalienable ; and yet the romanists will not allow that such conventions may be made at pleasure , but that the hic & nunc are determinable by the pope , who only has power to indict councils , and to give autority to those decrees , which yet derive their power from the council's being infallible , and from the holy ghost assisting them . another act , which from the same thesis he accuses of injustice , is the clergy's beseeching the king's highness that the constitutions and canons provincial and synodal , which be thought prejudicial to the king's prerogative royal , or repugnant to the laws and statutes of this realm , or to be otherwise overmuch onerous to his highness and his subjects may be committed to the judgment of his highness , and of 32 persons , 16 of the temporalty , and 16 of the clergy of this realm to be chosen and appointed by the king's majesty , and that such canons , as shall be thought by the more part of them worthy to be annull'd , shall be made of no value , and such other of the canons as shall be approv'd to stand with the law of god &c. shall stand in power . now it is to be consider'd that the laws , which the clergy here desire may be revis'd , are of a far different nature , and therefore the inspection of them may well be committed to different judges . some of them were suppos'd prejudicial to the king's praerogative royal , or repugnant to the laws of the realm , and here the lay-commissioners , being persons of the upper and lower house of parliament ( see the stat. ) were the best judges ; of others it was to be enquir'd whether they were agreeable to the word of god or not , and here the clergy were ready to give their determination . and altho' they both acted in a joynt commission yet no good reason seems assignable why both lay and ecclesiastical judges should be appointed , but that , the matters to be examin'd being of different cognizance , those which related to civil affairs should be determin'd by the temporalty , those which were of a spiritual nature by the spiritualty . and if so , then the deciding of these matters is not transfer'd from the spiritualty to the temporalty , but from one part of the clergy to another . and this he himself , after all his descants upon this act , confesseth , for , whatever sense the words in the praeface of this act were or may be extended to , i do not think the clergy at first intended any such thing , as to make the king or his commissioners judges of matters of faith or divine truth : and for this opinion of his he gives us his reasons in that , and the subsequent pages . another act , which is by this author judg'd contrary to his first thesis , is that statute of king henry the eighth which orders that no speaking , holding , or doing against any laws call'd spiritual laws made by autority of the see of rome , which be repugnant to the laws and statutes of the realm , or the king's praerogative shall be deem'd to be haeresie , from which he infers that the king and parliament undertake to be judges of haeresie . now the king and parliament do not here in my opinion take upon them to decide matters of faith , but only to enact that in such a case the subject shall not suffer the punishment usually inflicted on haereticks ; whether such speaking or doing be haeresie or not , they have power to ordain that it shall not be deem'd so i. e. the speaker shall not suffer as an haeretick . something parallel to this we have in that statute of much concernment ( to use our author's expression of another act ) made 23. eliz. c. 1. wherein it is enacted that the persons who shall withdraw any of the queens majesties subjects from the religion established by law to the romish religion , shall be to all intents adjudg'd as traytors , and shall suffer as in cases of high treason , and the like of persons willingly reconcil'd . where without disputing whether every such reconciler , or reconciled , is necessarily for that act ipso facto a traytor , all that is here enacted is that he shall suffer as such ; for it is undoubtedly within the reach of the civil power to ordain where they will inflict or not inflict their secular punishments , without being accountable for this to any autority under god's . and it seems very hard that if a subject expresses himself , or acts against such laws of a forreigner as are repugnant to the laws of his own country , there the prince cannot exempt him from a writ de haeretico comburendo without invading the churches right . another act condemn'd by virtue of his 1st and 2d theses is the convocation's granting to certain persons to be appointed by the king's autority to make ecclesiastical laws , and pursuant to this , 42 articles of religion publish'd by the autority of king edward in the 6th year of his reign . now not to engage my self in a dispute whether these articles were not really what in the title praefix'd they are said to be ? articuli de quibus in synodo london , a. d. 1552. ad tollendam opinionum dissentionem , & consensum verae religionis firmandum inter episcopos & alios eruditos viros convenerat , regia autoritate in lucem editi , i shall only accept of what is by him granted that de illis convenerat inter episcopos & alios eruditos viros qui erant pars aliqua de synodo london . so that here is only a part of the synod employ'd in drawing up these articles , and not any jurisdiction spiritual transfer'd from ecclesiastial persons to secular , which was by him to have been prov'd . another inference , which he deduces from these theses , is the unlawfulness of the oath of supremacy . now how far the regal supremacy is by us extended , will best be learnt from our articles . * the king's majesty has the chief power in this realm of england , and other his dominions : unto whom the chief government of all estates of this realm , whether they be ecclesiastical or civil , in all causes doth appertain , and is not or ought not to be subject to any forreign jurisdiction . so far for the extent of this power ; but now for the restraint . where we attribute to the king's majesty the chief government , by which titles we understand the minds of some slanderous folks to be offended , we give not to our prince the ministring either of god's word , or of the sacraments , the which thing the injunctions also , lately set forth by q. elizabeth do most plainly testify , but that only prerogative which we see to have been given always to all godly princes in holy scriptures by god himself , that is , that they should rule all estates and degrees committed to their charge by god , whether they be ecclesiastical or temporal , and restrain with the civil sword the stubborn & evil doers . it is therefore by our author to be prov'd that they who give no more to their prince , then hath been given always to all godly princes in holy scripture by god himself , do alienate to the secular governour any autority or office which they ( the clergy ) have receiv'd and been charg'd with by christ , with a command to execute the same to the end of the world ; which being a contradiction i leave it to him to reconcile . that by this oath , or any other act of queen elizabeth a greater power was either assum'd by herself , or given to her by others , then is consistent with that autority that is given by our saviour to the church will be very difficult for any reasonable man to conceive who shall have recourse to the injunction of this queen to which this very article refers us ; * where she declares that she neither doth nor ever will challenge any autority , but what was challeng'd and lately us'd by the noble kings of famous memory king henry the 8th , and king edward the 6th , which is and was of ancient time due to the imperial crown of this realm ; that is , under god to have sovereignty and rule over all manner of persons born within these her realms , dominions , and countreys , of what estate either ecclesiastical or temporal soever they be ; so as no other forreign power shall or ought to have any superiority over them . and if any person that hath conceited any other sense of the form of the said oath , shall accept the same oath with this interpretation , sense , or meaning ; her majesty is well pleas'd to accept every such in that behalf as her good and obedient subjects ; and shall acquit them of all manner of penalties contain'd in the act therein mention'd , against such as shall peremptorily and obstinately refuse to take the same oath . so that it 's evident from this injunction that it 's no way here stated what autority belongs to the church , and what to the civil magistrate , farther then that the queen ( as justly she might ) challenged what was due of ancient time to the imperial crown of this realm , and neither did nor would challenge more ; but what that was , is not here determin'd ; and she is content without such determination , if any person would take this oath in such a sense as only to exclude all forreign jurisdiction whether ecclesiastical or civil . another act which he finds repugnant to his 1st . thesis is king henry the 8th's claiming a right that no clergy-man , being a member of the church of england , should exercise the power of the keys in his dominions in any cause or on any person without his leave and appointment . but it is to be remembred that the ecclesiastical . censures asserted to belong to the clergie in the first thesis have reference to the things only of the next world ; but the censures here spoken of , are such as have reference to the things of this world . the habitual jurisdiction of bishops flows , we confess , from their ordination ; but the actual exercise thereof in publick courts after a coercive manner is from the gracious concessions of sovereign princes . from the 1st and 2d thesis he farther condemns the taking away the patriarch's autority for receiving of appeals , and exercising final judicature in spiritual controversies , as also the taking away the final judging and decision of such controversies not only from the patriarch in particular , but also from all the clergy in general , not making the arch-bishop of canterbury or convocation , but himself or his substitutes the judges thereof . for which he refers us to stat. 25. h. 8. 19. c. but in that statute i find no mention of a patriarch , or spiritual controversies , but only that in causes of contention having their commencement within the courts of this realm no appeal shall be made out of it to the bishop of rome , but to the arch-bishop of canterbury , and for want of justice in his courts to the king in chancery ; upon which a commission shall be directed to such persons as shall be appointed by the king definitively to determine such appeals . here is nothing of determining controversies in pure matters of religion , of deciding what is gods word , and divine truth , what are errors in the faith or in the practise of gods worship , and service , nor any of the other spiritual powers by him enumerated in the 1st thesis ; or if any such quaestions should be involv'd in the causes to be tried , why may not the commissioners , if secular , judge according to what has been praedetermin'd , by the clergy ? or let us suppose a case never yet determin'd , how doth he prove a power of judging in such causes transfer'd on secular persons , since if occasion requir'd , the delegates might be persons ecclesiastical ? but not only the acts of state and church , but the opinions of our doctors are to be examin'd by his test , and therefore from the same theses he censures that assertion of dr. heylin * that it is neither fit nor reasonable that the clergy should be able by their synodical acts to conclude both prince and people in spiritual matters , until the stamp of royal autority be imprinted on them . now it is plain to any one that views the context , that the dr. speaks of such a concluding the prince and people in matters spiritual , as hath influence on their civil rights . for he there discourses of the clergy under king henry obliging themselves not to execute those ecclesiastical canons without the kings consent which formerly they had put in execution by their own autority . but the canons so executed had the force of civil laws , and the violators of them were obnoxious to secular punishments . the dr. therefore very justly thought it unreasonable any should be liable to such punishments without his consent , who only has the power of inflicting them ; nor is this inconsistent with our authors first thesis ( had he at so great a distance remembred it ) which extends church-autority only to ecclesiastical censures , which have reference to things not of this , but the next world. these are the inferences which i find deduc'd , from his first and second theses in the several parts of this discourse , which had they been as conclusive , as they are false , yet i do not find but that his own party ( if that be the roman catholick ) had suffer'd most by them . for if the supremacy given to king henry was so great an invasion of the churches right , what shall we think of that roman catholick clergy , who so sacrilegiously invested him with this spiritual power ? if that synodical act was betraying the trust which the clergy had receiv'd from christ , what shall we think of those pastours , who so unfaithfully manag'd the depositum of their saviour ? if denying the popes authority was so piacular a crime , what opinion shall we entertain of those religious persons in monasteries , who professing a more then ordinary sanctity , and being obliged by the strictest vows of obedience so * resolutely abjur'd it ? what of those learned in the * university , who after a solemn debate , and serious disquisition of the cause , so peremptorily defin'd against it ? what of the * whole body of the clergy , whose proper office it is to determine such controversies , and to judge what is gods word , and divine truth , what are errors , who in full synod so unanimously rejected it ? what of the leading part of those prelates , * gardiner , bonner , and tonstal , who wrote , preach'd , and fram'd oaths against it ? what of the * nobles and commons , persons of presum'd integrity , and honour , who prepared the bill against it ? what lastly of the sovereign a declar'd enemy of the lutheran doctrine , and defender of the roman catholick faith , who past that bill into a law , and guarded the sanction of it with capital punishments ? if all these acted sincerely , then it is not the doctrine of the reformed , but of the romanists which is written against : if not , we seem to have just praejudices against a religion which had no greater influence over its profesors , then to suffer a whole nation of them perfidiously to deny that , which if it be any part , is a main article of their faith ? but to return to our author , what shall we judge of his skill in controversie who from principles assum'd gratis , draws deductions which by no means follow , and which if they did follow , would be the greatest wound to that cause which he pretends to patronize ? but because he has offer'd something under this first thesis , why the prince should pay an implicit obedience to his clergy , i come now to consider it . he tells us therefore that the prince professeth himself with the rest of the christians as to the knowing of spiritual truths a subject and scholar of the church ; and he earnestly claims a supreme power and confesseth an obligation from god over all persons in all spiritual matters to bind them upon temporal punishments to obedience of the churches ( or clergy's ) determinations and decrees . but here he either willingly misrepresents , or ignorantly mistakes our principles ; for the prince claims a supreme power over all persons , to bind them by temporal punishments to the obedience not of the churches , but of christs laws ; or of the former , no farther then they are agreeable with the latter . but , saith he , if the prince meaneth here only where himself first judgeth such their decrees orthodox and right , this power is in effect claim'd to bind all persons in all spiritual matters only to his own decrees ; whilst he praetends an obligation both of himself and his subjects to the churches . but , what if the prince judge such decrees neither orthodox nor right ? must he here give them the autority of civil sanctions ? this is to establish iniquity by a law ; and a power is claim'd in effect to bind all persons to the decrees of the clergy , whilst , as has been said , he praetends an obligation of himself & subjects to the laws of christ. but he goes on and tells us , that all texts of the new-testament do ordain obedience of church-men to the pagan princes , that then reigned , no less then to others . from which i suppose he would infer an exemption from obeying the prince in spiritualibus . but supposing that all texts do aequally ordain obedience to princes pagan , and christain , yet the obedience to a christian prince will be of greater latitude , since because he professes the true religion , his commands in spirituals not contradicting our saviours will exact our compliance . obedience in licitis is all the subject ow's to a prince either christian or infidel ; but the christian prince will oftner challenge my obedience , because he more rarely transgresseth the bounds of licita . if as he adds , all princes are oblig'd with the sword which god hath given them to protect and defend his true religion , and service in their dominions , whensoever it offers it self to them ; since many religions offer themselves , it becomes the prince to take care which is the true ; and not to take , whatever is offer'd ; which would be utterly destructive of our authors principles . as for the acts of ancient councils obliging even without the emperours consent , we own their obligation over their proper subjects , so far as they were agreeable with the laws of christ , and his apostles ; and urge the autority of emperours no farther then as adding their civil power to the spiritual power of the church . and here we challenge no other power to our princes , then was exercis'd by christian emperours , that is , to call synods , and to have a liberty of confirming , or not confirming their decrees by civil sanctions . as for what he cites out of our writers , all amounts to no more then this , that there are some offices peculiar to the church ; which neither do we deny , nor did our princes ever invade these functions . but because from hence he would insinuate that the prince has no power at all in causes ecclesiastical , & in his citations from these writers comes up to that character which the * book of education gives us of the sly , the close , and the reserv'd , who take notice of so much as serves to their own designs , and misinterpret and detort what you say even contrary to your intention ; i shall as briefly as may be shew that their concessions are far from giving any countenance to his cause . bishop andrews doth indeed say ( as all other of our church ) potestatis mere sacerdotalis sunt liturgi●e , conciones . i. e. dubia legis explicandi munus ; claves , sacramenta , & omnia quae potestatem ordinis consequuntur ; but then there are other ecclesiastical powers which he challenges to the prince ; viz. a to have supreme command in the exteriour polity of the church ; b to be keeper of both tables ; c to exercise all that power which the good kings of israel did ; d to make ecclesiastical laws ; to e delegate persons to judge in causes ecclesiastical ; to f punish the breach of those spiritual laws ; to g learn the will of god not only from the mouth of the clergy , but also from the scripture ; to h have autority over all persons ; to i eject even the high priest if he deserve it ; to k pull down high-places l ; and to reform the church from idolatry and superstition . these he claims to appertain to the prince m iure divino . the next author is dr. carlton . he amongst other rights of the church reckons institution and collation of benefices , which this writer marks with italian characters , and makes much use of . but this apostolical institution and collation by the bishop alluded to , doth also involve in it ordination , even as the ordination ( which is observ'd by himself n from the bishop ) signified also institution in the charge and cure . but the collation challeng'd by our princes is of another nature , and signifies no more then the nominating a person to be ordain'd to such an office , or presenting a person already ordained to such a benefice ; and the right of investitures ( which is the same with such a collation ) is by this bishop o asserted to emperours . this being clear'd which was by him on purpose perplex'd , if we take the extent of the regal power from this bishop , he tells p us , that sovereign's as nursing fathers of the chu●●● are to see that bishops and all inferiour ministers perform their faithfull duties in their several places , and if they be found faulty to punish them . his next author is mr. thorndike , who is as large as any one in the vindication of the churches rights ; and yet he tells us q , that no man will refuse christian princes the interest of protecting the church against all such acts as may prove praejudicial to the common faith. he holds ( as this writer with great concern r observes ) that the secular power may restore any law , which christ or his apostles have ordained , not only against a major part , but all the clergy and governours of the church ; and may , for a paenalty of their opposing it , suppress their power and commit it to others , tho' they also be establish'd by another law apostolical . thus that considerative man , who held not the pope to be antichrist , or the hierarchy of the church to be followers of antichrist s . bishop taylour ( his next author ) doth with the rest assert , that the episcopal office has some powers annex'd to it , independent on the regal ; but then he farther lays down these rules , t that the supreme civil-power is also supreme governour over all persons , and in all causes ; u hath a legislative power in affairs of religion and the church ; x hath jurisdiction in causes not only ecclesiastical , but also internal and spiritual ; y hath autority to convene and dissolve all synods ecclesiastical ; z is ( indeed ) to govern in causes ecclesiastical by the means and measure of christ's institutions , i. e. by the assistance and ministry of ecclesiastical persons ; a but that there may happen a case in which princes may and must refuse to confirm the synodical decrees , sentences , and judgments of ecclesiastics ; b that censures ecclesiastical are to be inflicted by the consent and concurrence of the supreme civil power . the next author cited is the learned primate bramhal ; and we have here reason to wonder that one who praetends to have been conversant in his writings , dares appear in the vindication of a cause , which the learned author has so longe since so shamefully defeated . as for the right of sovereign princes , this arch-bishop will tell c him , that to affirm that sovereign princes cannot make ecclesiastical constitutions under a civil pain , or that they cannot ( especially with the advice and concurrence of their clergy assembled in a national synod ) reform errors and abuses , and remedy incroachments , and usurpations in faith or discipline , is contrary to the sense and practise of all antiquity , and as for matter of fact he will instruct him , d that our kings from time to time call'd councils , made ecclesiastical laws , punish'd ecclesiastical persons , saw that they did their duties in their calling &c. from this bishop's acknowledgment , that the bishops are the proper judges of the canon , this author that he may according to the language of a * modern pen , as well waken the taciturn with quaestions , as silence the loquacious with baffling fallacies , takes occasion briskly to ask whether this bishop doth not mean here that the bishops may both compose and execute canons in the king's dominions , and use ecclesiastical censures by their own autority ? but see , saith he , the bishops depriv'd of the former power in the reformation . to which i answer that the power of which they were depriv'd in the reformation was only of such an executing the canons as carried with it pecuniary and corporal punishments , and this power the bishop has told him they could not exercise by their own autority . and here it were to be wish'd that our author in reading this bishop's works had made use of his advice , e to cite authors fully and faithfully , not by halves , without adding to , or new moulding their autorities according to fancy or interest . the next advocate against regal supremacy is king charles the first ; but if we may take a draught of that blessed martyr's sentiments from his own portraiture , f he did not think his autority confin'd to civil affairs , but that the true glory of princes consists as well in advancing gods glory in the maintenance of true religion , and the churches good ; as in the dispensation of civil power with justice , and honour , to the publick peace . g he thought himself ( as king ) intrusted by god and the laws , with the good both of church and state , and saw no reason why he should give up , or weaken by any change , that power and influence which in right and reason he ought to have over both . he thought himself oblig'd to preserve the episcopal government in its right constitution , ( not because his bishops told him so , but ) because his iudgment was fully satisfied that it had of all other the best scripture grounds , and also the constant practice of christian churches . he was no friend of implicit obedience , but after he has told the prince , h that the best profession of religion is that of the church of england , adds i would have your own iudgment and reason now seal to that sacred bond which education hath written , that it may be judiciously your own religion , and not other mens custom , or tradition , which you profess . he did not give that glorious testimony to the religion established in the church of england , that it was the best in the world , not only in the community as christian , but also in the special notion as reformed ; and for this reason required and intreated the prince as his father , and his king , that he would never suffer his heart to receive the least check against , or disaffection from it ; till he had first tried it , and after much search , and many disputes thus concluded . these are the sentiments of our authors , in which if i have been over-long , the reader will excuse me , that i choose rather to intermix something useful from these great pens , then to entertain him altogether with the paralogisms and prevarications of this writer . there is nothing that remains considerable under this first thesis , but his sub-sumption , that whatever powers belong'd to the church in times of persecution , and before emperours had embrac'd christianity , are , and must still be allowed to belong to her in christian states . which i conceive not altogether so necessary that it must be allowed , and i am sure by our authors it is not . as for convening of councils ( the power of greatest concern ) bishop i andrews to this quaestion ( what say you to the 300 years before constantine ? how went assemblies then ? who call'd them all that while ? ) returns this answer . truly as the people of the jews did before in aegypt under the tyranny of pharaoh : they were then a church under persecution , until moses was rais'd up by god a lawful magistrate over them . the cases are alike for all the world . no magistrate did assemble them in aegypt , and good reason why ; they had none to do it . but this was no barr , but when moses arose , authoriz'd by god , & had the trumpets by god deliver'd to him , he might take them , keep them , use them , for that end , for w ch god gave them , to assemble the congregation — shall moses have no more to do then pharaoh ? or constantine then nero ? see also a dr field . his third thesis is , that the secular prince cannot b depose or eject from the exercise of their office in his dominions any of the clergy , nor introduce others into the place of the ejected . but the quaestion here is not , whether the prince can eject any of the clergy from the exercise of their office , but , whether he can depose any for not exercising it ? while the clergy faithfully discharge their office , the prince ought to protect them ; and if for this they suffer , no doubt but they are martyrs . but it is possible they may abuse their power , and then it is to be enquir'd , whether civil laws may not inhibit them the use of it ? this author holds the negative , and tell us 1st . they cannot eject them at pleasure , without giving any cause thereof . but he doth not pretend that the reforming princes ever ejected any without a cause given . and therefore he adds 2ly , neither may princes depose them for any cause which concerns things spiritual ; but with this limitation , without the consent of the clergy . i could wish he had here told us what he ment by things spiritual . for things , as well as persons spiritual are of great extent . ( d pope paul the 3d told the duke of mantua , that it is the opinion of the doctors , that priest's concubines are of ecclsiastical jurisdiction . ) but he gives us his reason for his assertion because it is necessary that a judge to be a competent one have as well potestatem in causam , as in personam , and the prince as has been mention'd in the 1st thesis has no autority to judge such causes purely spiritual . now the power denied to the prince in the ist thesis is to determine matters of faith. but may not the prince judge whether an ecclesiastick deserves deprivation without determining a matter of faith ? may not he judge according to what has been already determin'd by the church ? or may not he appoint such delegates as can determine matters of faith ? or are all the causes , for which a clergy-man may be depriv'd , merely spiritual ? by virtue of this thesis he proves the ejection of the western patriarch unlawful . now was not this matter of faith already determin'd by the clergy ? had they not unanimously decreed , that he had no more autority here , then any other forreign bishop ? and can the king be said here to have acted without the consent of the clergy ? and yet that matter of fact is applied to this thesis . as for the ejection of the bishops in king edward's time ; is not that confest to have been for not acknowledging the regal supremacy ? but this was a matter which wanted no new determination , for the church-autority had decided it in their synod in king henry's reign . but it is said , the judges were not canonical , as being the king's commissioners , part clergy , part laity . but neither was the cause purely canonical ; for denying the supremacy was not only an infringment of the canon , but also a violation of an act of parliament . as for the bishops , bonner and gardiner , they were accus'd for not asserting the civil power of the king in his nonage . nor do they plead conscience for not doing it , but deny the matter of fact * the same objections were then made against their deprivation , as are reassum'd by this author now ; and therefore it may suffice to return the same answers . that the sentence being only of deprivation privation from their sees , it was not so entirely of ecclesiastical censure , but was of a mix'd nature , so that lay-men might joyn in it ; & since they had taken commissions from the king for their bishopricks , by which they held them only during the kings pleasure , they could not complain of their deprivation , which was done by the king's autority . others who look'd farther back , remembred that constantine the emp. had appointed secular men to enquire into some things objected to bishops , who were call'd cognitores , or triers ; and such had examin'd the business of coecilian bishop of carthage , even upon an appeal , after it had been tried by several synods ; and given judgment against donatus , and his party . the same constantine had also by his autority put eustathius out of antioch , athanasius out of alexandria , and paul out of constantinople ; and though the orthodox bishops complain'd of their particulars , as done unjustly at the false suggestion of the arrians , yet they did not deny the autority of the emperors in such cases . but neither is the arch-bishop of canterbury by this author allow'd to be a proper judge ; & that , because he did not act by his canonical superiority in the church , but by the autority he joyntly with the rest receiv'd from the king ; as if he had ever the less the power of a metropolitan , because he was also the king's commissioner . by this way of arguing the decrees of oecumenical councils will be invalid , because they were call'd to determine controversies by the command of emperors . but how uncanonical soever king edward's bishops are said to have been , he does not except against queen mary's bishops , tho' they in depriving the reformed , acted by commission from the queen . as for the bishops ejected in q. elizabeth's time , it has been already said it was for a civil cause , i. e. refusing the oath of supremacy ; which why it should be lawful in her father's time , and unlawful in her's ; why it should be contriv'd by roman catholics in that reign , and scrupled by the same roman catholics in this ; why it should be inoffensive , when exprest in larger terms , and scandalous , when mitigated ; whence on a sudden the refusers espied so much obliquity in that oath , which they had all took before probably either as bishops or priests in the reigns of king henry the 8th , and edward the 6th ; whence this change of things proceeded , unless from secret intimations from rome , or their own obstinacy , will not easily be conjectur'd . as for his note , that what is sayd of the other clergy , may be said likewise of the patriarch , for any autority which he stands posses'd of by such ecclesiastical canons , as cannot justly be pretended to do any wrong to the civil government . he has been often told by our authors , that patriarchs are an humane institution ; that as they were erected , so they may be dissolv'd by the prudence of men ; that as they were erected by leave and confirmation of princes , so they may be dissolv'd by the same ; that the bishop of romes patriarchate doth not extend beyond the sub-urbicary churches ; that we are without the reach of his jurisdiction , and therefore that the power claim'd over us is an invasion ; that did not popes think fit to dispence with themselves for perjury , having sworn to keep inviolably the decrees of the eight first general councils , they would not in plain opposition to the a nicene and b ephesine canons pretend to any jurisdiction over us ; that they so invading ought to be judg'd by a free oecumenical synod if such an one could be had ; but that this remedy being praecluded us , each national church has liberty to free her self from such usurpation ; that the church of england pleads the benefit of this right ; and her sovereigns having power to transfer bishopricks , might remove the patriarchate from rome to canterbury , and justly exclude any forreign praelate from jurisdiction within their territories ; but that the power claim'd by the pope ( however mollified by the novices of that church ) is more then patriarchal , and that it is not our rule ( which this author so much dislikes ) but pope leo's the c 1st , that propria perdit , qui indebita concupiscit . this plea of a western patriarchate is fatally confounded by that one plain period of bishop d bilson . as for his patriarchate , by god's law he hath none ; in this realm for six hundred years after christ he had none ; for the last 6 hundred years looking after greater matters he would have none ; above or against the princes sword he can have none ; to the subversion of the faith , and oppression of his brethren he ought to have none ; he must seek farther for subjection to his tribunal ; this land oweth him none . so much for the first branch of this thesis ; the 2d is , that as the prince cannot eject , or depose the clergy , so neither can be introduce any into the place of those , who are ejected , or deceas'd without the concurrence of the clergy . if by the concurrence of the clergy , he means that the person assign'd by the prince to any sacred office cannot execute it till he be ordain'd by the clergy , no one will deny it ; or if he think that the ordainer ought to lay hands on none but whom he esteems fit for the discharge of so sacred an office ; here also we agree with him ; but how doth it follow that because ordination , which is consecrating men to the work of the holy ministry , is the proper office of the clergy , the prince may not recommend to the church a fit person so to be consecrated , or assign to the person already consecrated , the place where he shall perform that holy work ? as for the canons by him alledg'd , they being humane institutions are not of aeternal obligation , but changeable according to the different state of the church . if the 31st apostolick canon , which excommunicates all who gain benefices by the interest of secular princes , and forbids the people to communicate with them , still oblige ; then we are exempted from communion with the bishop of rome . how comes the latter part of the 6th canon of the nicene council which concerns the election of bishops still to be valid , and the former part , which limits the jurisdiction of patriarchs , so long since to be null ? why must the c. of england accept the 2d . nicene council in matters of discipline , which the * gallican church rejected in matters of faith ? were the canon of the laodicean council , here cited , pertinent to the purpose , as it is not , ( it being directed only against popular elections ) yet why must that be indispensable , when another canon , which enumerates the canonical books of scripture , has so little autority ? it is plain the manners of elections have varied much in the divers states of the church . the apostles and apostolical persons nominated their successors ; afterwards bishops were chose by the clergy , and the people ; after , by the bishops of the province , the metropolitan ratifying the choice ; in process of time emperors , when become christian , interpos'd and constituted and confirm'd even popes themselves * . nor is this power of princes repugnant to holy scripture , in which we find that * king solomon put zadok the priest in the room of abiathar ; that * jehosaphat set amariah the chief-priest over the people in all matters of the lord : that he * set of the levites , and of the priests , and of the chief fathers of israel , for the iudgment of the lord , and for controversies . as for his alledg'd inconvenience , that , if temporal governors can place , and displace the clergy , they will make the churches synods to state divine matters according to their own minds , and so the church will not be praeserv'd incorrupt in her doctrine and discipline , they who maintain the just rights of the prince are not obliged to defend the abuse of them ; there is perhaps no power ordain'd for our good , which may not be perverted to mischief ; were this right of placing and displacing left to a patriarch or a synod , yet either of these might so manage their trust that a corrupted majority of clergy might state divine matters according to their own minds , and so the doctrines of christ be chang'd for the traditions of men . but to these objected injuries which the church may suffer from a bad prince , we ought to oppose the benefit she receives from the protection of a good one ; nor is it more true that constantius an arrian , by his unjustly displacing the orthodox bishops , procur'd arrianism to be voted in several eastern synods , then that the succeeding emperors by justly displacing the arrian bishops procur'd the nicene faith to be receiv'd in succeeding synods . but for these mischiefs , which a national synod is liable to , our author has found out , as he thinks , a remedy in his fourth thesis , that a provincial , or national synod may not lawfully make any difinitions in matters of faith , or in reforming some error , or heresy , or other abuse in god's service contrary to the decrees of former superior synods , or contrary to the judgment of the church vniversal of the present age shew'd in her publick liturgies . but there is a thesis in our bibles , which seems to me the very contradictory of this . for saith the prophet expresly , * though israel transgress , yet let not iudah sin. tho' ten tribes continue corrupted in their faith , yet let the remaining tribe take care to reform her self . for that iudah had sinned , and consequently was here commanded to reform is plain from the words of scripture , where it is said , that * iudah kept not the commandments of the lord her god , but walk'd in the statutes of israel which they made . but this argument of national councils reforming without the leave of general has been manag'd with so great learning and demonstration by arch-bishop laud in his discourse with fisher , and his lordship's arguments so clearly vindicated by the reverend d. stillingfleet , that as it is great praesumption in this author to offer any thing in a cause which has had the honour to have suffer'd under those pens , so neither would it be modest in me to meddle any farther in a controversie by them exhausted . i shall therefore proceed to his fifth thesis , that could a national synod make such definitions , yet that a synod wanting part of the national clergy unjustly depos'd , or restrained ; and consisting partly of persons unjustly introduc'd , partly of those who have been first threatned with fines , imprisonment , and deprivation , in case of their non-conformity to the princes injunctions in matters purely spiritual , is not to be accounted a lawful national synod , nor the acts thereof free and valid ; especially as to their establishing such regal injunctions . now how this is pertinent to our case i can by no means conjecture . for it has been shew'd that neither were the anti-reforming bps. unjustly depos'd , nor the reformers unjustly introduc'd . but what he means by the clergy's being threatned with fines , imprisonment , and deprivation in case of their non-conformity to the prince's injunctions may be learnt from another passage in his discourse , where he tells us that the clergy being condemn'd in the kings bench in a praemunire for acknowledging the cardinal's power legantine , and so become liable at the king's pleasure to the imprisonment of their persons , and confiscation of their estates , did to release themselves of this praemunire , give the king the title of ecclesiae & cleri anglicani protector , & supremum caput . which act , saith he , so passed by them , that , as dr. hammond acknowledges , it is easie to believe that nothing but the apprehensions of dangers , which hung over them by a praemunire incurred by them could probably have inclined them to it . but here we have great reason to complain of the unpardonable praevarication of this author in so foully misrepraesenting dr. hammond . which that it may be the more perspicuous , and that the reader may make from this instance a true judgment of this writer's sincerity , it will be necessary to transcribe the whole passage as it lies in the doctor . * though the first act of the clergy in this was so introduc'd , that it is easie to believe that nothing but the apprehension of dangers which hung over them ( by a praemunire incurr'd by them ) could probably have inclin'd them to it , and therefore i shall not pretend that it was perfectly an act of their first will and choice , but that which the necessity of affairs recommended to them , yet the matter of right being upon that occasion taken into their most serious debate in a synodical way , and at last a fit and commodious expression uniformly pitch'd upon by joynt consent of both houses of convocation , there is no reason to doubt , but that they did believe what they did profess , their fear being the occasion of their debates , but the reasons and arguments observ'd in debate , the causes , as in all charity we are to judge , of their decision . thus the doctor . now this prevarication is the more culpable , because it is not an original , but copied from mr. sergeant , whom this writer cannot but be praesumed to have known to have falsified it . for bishop bramhal ( in whose writings we find him very conversant ) had detected this mis-quotation in mr. sergeant , and severely reprimands him for it . his words are so applicable to our author , that i cannot excuse my self the omission of them . * he citeth half a passage out of dr. hammond , but he doth dr. hammond notorious wrong . dr. hammond speaketh only of the first preparatory act which occasion'd them to take the matter of right into a serious debate in a synodical way ; he applieth it to the subsequent act of renunciation after debate . dr. hammond speaketh of no fear but the fear of the law , the law of praemunire , an ancient law made many ages before henry the 8th was born , the palladium of england to preserve it from the usurpations of the court of rome ; but mr. sergeant mis-applieth it wholly to the fear of the king 's violent cruelty . lastly , he smothers dr. hammond's sense express'd clearly by himself , that there is no reason to doubt , but that they did believe what they did profess , the fear being the occasion of their debates , but the reasons or arguments offer'd in debate , the causes ( as in all charity we are to judge ) of their decision . he useth not to cite any thing ingenuously . this author must be thought to have read these passages , and yet ventured the scandal of promoting this forgery , tho' without the honor of being the first inventor of it . such practises , as these , require little controversiall skill , but much fore-head ; and we have seen a machine lately publickly expos'd for this laudable quality of imbibing whatever is blown into it's mouth , and then ecchoing it forth again without blushing . whether this be not our author's talent , let the reader judg ; as also what opinion we ought to have of his modesty , who after all this has the confidence to desire us to read , together with these his observations on the reformation , dr. hammond of sch. c. 7. ( the very chapter whence this is cited ) least , saith he , i may have related some things partially , or omitted some things considerable in this matter . as for this objection of the clergy's being aw'd by fear in this act , he himself has unluckily cited a passage from the ( then ) lady mary , which shews the vanity of it . i am well assur'd ( saith she speaking of edward vi. in her letter to the council ) that the king his father's laws were consented to without compulsion by the whole realm both spiritual and temporal . i shall say nothing more to this thesis but oppose another to it , that could an oecumenical synod make definitions contrary to the word of god , yet that a synod wanting the greatest part of christian bishops , unjustly excluded , and consisting partly of persons unjustly introduc'd , partly of those who have been first bribed with mony , and promises of church praeferment , or praeengag'd by oaths to comply with the vsurpations of a praetended spiritual monarch , is not to be accounted a lawful oecumenical synod , nor the acts thereof free and valid , especially as to their establishing such usurpations . this is a thesis , which needs no application . i proceed to his sixth thesis . that the iudgment and consent of some clergy-men of a province , when they are the lesser part , cannot be call'd the judgment and consent of the whole clergy of the province . this assertion , that a lesser part is not aequall to the whole , is the only thing which looks like mathematics in the whole discourse ; and the reader may hence be convinc'd that our author doth sometimes travel in the * high road of demonstration . but here we desire it may be prov'd , either that the reformation was not effected by the major part of the clergy , or that a minor part judging according to truth are not to be obey'd rather then the major part judging contrary to it . in the mean time it is easily reply'd , that the judgment and consent of some few bishops ( * suppose 48. bishops , and 5. cardinals giving canonical autority to books apocryphal , and making authentical a translation differing from the original ) cannot be esteem'd the judgment and consent of the catholic church . 7th . thesis . that since a national synod may not define matters of faith contrary to former superior councils , much less may any secular person define contrary to those councils , or also to a national synod . the defining matters of faith we allow to be the proper office of the clergy ; but because every one must give an account of his own faith , every one is oblig'd to take care that what he submits to the belief of , be consistent with his christianity : i am oblig'd to pay all submission to the church-autority , but the church having bounds , within which she ought to be restrain'd in her determinations , if she transgresses these limits , and acts against that christianity , which she professes to maintain , i may rather refuse obedience , then forseit my christianity . if in a cause of this moment i make a wrong judgment , i am answerable for it at gods tribunal , not because i usurped a right , which was never granted me , but because i misus'd a liberty which was indulg'd me . this we take to be the case of each private christian ; and farther , that the prince having an obligation not only to believe a-right , and worship god ( as is praescrib'd ) himself , but also to protect the true faith and worship in his dominions , ought to use all those means of discovering the truth , which god has afforded , viz. consulting the pastours of the church , reading the word of god &c. and that , having discover'd it , he may promulgate it to his subjects by them also to be embrac'd , but not without the use of that judgment and discretion which to them also is allowed . if here it happens that the civil and ecclesiastical power command things contrary , there is nothing to be done by the subject but to enquire on which side god is ; and if god be on the king's side by a direct law in the matter , he is not on the churches side for her spiritual autority . thus a good king of israel might * take away the high places and altars , and say unto iudah and ierusalem , ye shall worship before the altar at ierusalem , because such a command was justifiable by the law of moses ; nor is it any praejudice against it , * that the priests of the high places refus'd to come up to the altar at ierusalem . thus might king alfred restore to the decalogue , and to its obligation the non tibi facies deos aureos , tho' veneration of images was commanded by the second nicene synod . and tho' the councils of constance and trent had thought fit to repeal our saviour's institution , yet king edward might revive the ancient statute , * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . as for his eighth thesis it has already been prov'd to be felo de ●e , and that the limitation destroys whatever the proposition would have establish●d . when the gallican church shall have receiv'd all the decrees of the council of trent , and the roman church observed the canons of the first general councils , when the western patriarch shall have rechang'd his regalia petri into the old regulas patrum ; it may then be seasonable to examine , how far national churches are oblig'd by things of meer ecclesiastical constitution . i should now proceed to examine the historical part of his discourse ; but that i understand is already under the consideration of another hand , from which the reader may shortly expect a satisfactory account . but i may not omit for the reader 's diversion a grammatical criticism which our author hath made upon the little particle as . it is enacted the 32d . hen. 8. 26. c. that all such determinations , decrees , definitions and ordinances , as according to god's word , and christ's gospel shall at any time be set forth by the arch-bishops , bishops , and doctors in divinity appointed by his majesty , or else by the whole clergy of england , in and upon the matters of christ's religion &c. shall be by all his grace's subjects fully believ'd , obey'd , &c. vpon which he makes this learned note . whereas under the reformation private men are tied only to obey and believe the definitions of councils when they are set forth according to god's word . i. e. when private men think them to be so , yet here this liberty was thought fit to be restrain'd , and private men tyed to believe these definitions when set forth as according to god's word . i. e. when the setters forth believe them to be so . to obey a thing defin'd according to god's word ; and to obey a thing defin'd , as being according to god's word , are injunctions very different . now a little skill in honest walker's particles would have clear'd this point , and a school-boy that was to turn this passage into latin , would have known that as is put for which ; accordingly keble abridging this statute makes it run thus , all decrees and ordinances which according to gods word , &c. but this it is for people to meddle in controversie at an age when they have forgot their grammar . notwithstanding therefore this aristarchus , we still retain the liberty of believing and obeying only such things , which be defined according to god's word . for which we are much blamed in the conclusion of this discourse . * in rejection of the churche's iudgment ( saith he ) let none think himself secure in relying on the testimony of his conscience or judgment . but what reason soever he may have to undervalue the testimony of a good conscience , we think it advisable from st. paul , * to hold faith , and a good conscience which some having put away , concerning faith have made ship-wrack ; of whom are — but saith he , let none think himself secure in any of these things , so long as his conscience witnesseth still to him this one thing , namely his disobedience and inconformity to the church-catholic . but our consciences do not witness to us any disobedience to the church-catholic , but only to that church which falsly praetends to be catholic . he means to the major part of the guides thereof . but the cause has not yet been decided by poll , that we should know which side has the majority . let him know that his condition is very dangerous , when he maketh the church-guides of his own time , or the major part thereof , incommunicable-with in their external profession of religion ; there was a time then , when to believe the consubstantiality of the son was a dangerous condition ; and this perhaps made pope liberius externally to profess arrianism . when for the maintaining of his opinions he begins to distinguish and divide between the doctrine of the scripture , and the doctrine of the church . but why not distinguish , where the church her self distinguishes , and saith , christ indeed in the scriptures instituted so , but i institute otherwise ; as in the case of denying the cup. between the doctrines of the catholic church of the former ages , and of the catholic church of the present . but here again the church her self distinguishes , when she tells us that * licet in primitiva ecclesia sub utraque specie sacramentum reciperetur , yet now the contrary custom habenda est pro lege quam non licet reprobare . between the church's orthodoxness in necessaries , and non-necessaries to salvation . if there be no difference betwixt these , why doth a * friend of the author tell us of an obedience of assent in the one , but of non-contradiction only in the other ? when he begins to maintain the autority of an inferior ecclesiastical iudge against a superior . but what if this be only where the inferior judge agrees tho' not with his immediate superior , yet with the supreme ? or of a minor part of the church-guides against a major . but that is not a case yet fairly decided . when they grant that god hath given them , beside the scriptures , guides of their faith. but those guides themselves to be guided by the scripture . and that they have in their judgment departed from those guides . i. e. the major part of them . but this we would have prov'd . which in a court consisting of many is the legall iudge . guides and judges are different things ; but we hope when this court sits , the judges will consult the scripture , the statute they are to go by , and if they judge according to that , they will judge well . these are the doctrines of blind-obedience which this author so studiously inculcates . for since doctrines are taught us different from scripture , we are advis'd to use another way of discerning doctrines , then what the gospel prescribes . our saviour bids us , * beware of the leaven . i. e. the doctrine of pharisee's , tho' sitting in moses his chair . we are now advis'd to embrace all the doctrines of those that sit in the chair of s. peter . christ bids us , * take heed that no man deceive us tho' coming in his name . we are now told that they who come to us in the name of christ cannot deceive us . st. paul saith , * that if an angel from heaven preach to us any other doctrine then that which he preach'd , let him be accurs'd . now , if we do not embrace whatever a patriarch from the west preaches , tho' never so contrary to the gospel , we are concluded under an anathema . the apostles tell us , that they * have no dominion over our faith ; but their successors exercise a despotic power in requiring a servile obedience to all their dictates . s. paul's practise was to * withstand peter to the face , when he saw that he walk'd not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel ; but st. peter's successor pleads that in no case he may be withstood , because it is impossible , but that he should walk uprightly in the truth of the gospel . the inspir'd divine bids us * come out of babylon , that we may not partake of her sins ; our modern theologists advise us to come back into * babylon , for that she only is impeccable . finis notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a60381-e360 pag. 21● §. 117. §. 118. pag 2. §. 2. pag. 140. §. 123. §. 5. p. 12. §. 7. p. 14. §. 28. p. 36. §. 16. p. 20. * see sidney's trial. * episcopacy not prejud . to reg power . p 22 * cura principum christianorum olim non solum haereticorum ●uroros compressi , contumacia episcoporum aut clericorum adversus synodorum sententias rebellium ab externa potentia repressa ; sed etiam principum studio prohibiti episcopi ne legibus secularibus vel canonibus violatis injuriam subditis inferrent de concord . l. 4. cap. 1. par . 2. * canonum custodiae duobu● modis prospiciebant principes , tum delegatione magistratuum , qui ve●arent ne quid contra canones tentareture , tum exactis poenis à contumacibus si quid perperam gestum effect . ●b par 4. * in manifestissima violatione , canonibus factam injuriam iis poenis principes ulsciscebantur , quae legibus irrogatae erant , nempe expulsione à sede . deturbationem enim illam quae vacantem ecclesiam redderet sui arbitrii esse putabant ; non autem regradationem vel dejectionem ab episcopali dignitate , quae erat poena mere ecclesiastica . ib. par . 6. * ibid. * hist. of eccl , rev by a learned priest in france . p. 116. * le rois tres-chrestiens ont de tout temps selon les occurrences & necessitez de leur pays , assemblè o● fait assembler synodes o● conciles provinciaux & nationaux , esquels entre autres choses importantes à conservation de leur estat , se sont aussi traitezles a●faires concernans l'ordre & discipline ecclesiastique de leurs pays , dont ils ont saict faire reigles , chapitres , loix , ordonnances , & pragmatiques sanctions sou● leur nom & autoritè : & s●en lisent encor aujourd huy plusieurs ès recueils des ecrets receus par● eglise universelle , & aucunes approuvees par conciciles generaux . * le papen envoy point en france legates à latere avec faculte de re●ormer , juger , conferer , dispenser , & telles autres qui ont accoustumè d'estre specifiees par les bulles de leur pouvoir , si non a lá postulation du roy tres-christien ou de son consentement : & le legat n' use de ses facultez qu' apres avoir baillè promesse au roy par escrit sous son sein , & jurè par ses sainctes ordres de n'user desdites facultez e's royaume , pays , tertes & seigneuries de sa suje●tion si non tant & si longuement qu'il plaira au roy ; & que si cost que le dir legat sera adverty de sa volonte ' au contraire , ils'en desistera & cessera aussi qu'il n'usera des dites facultez si non pour le regard de celles dont il aura le consentement du roy & conformement à iceluy sans entreprendre ny faire chose au saincts decrets conciles generaux , franchi●es , libertez , & privileges de l'eglise gallicane & des universitez , & estatez publiques de ce royaume . et à cette fin se presentent les facultez de tels legats a la cour de parlement , ou elles sont veus , examinees , verifiees , publiees & registrees sous telles modifications que la cour voit estre à fair pour le bien du royaume : suivant lesqnelles modifications se jugent tous les process & differents qui surviennent pour rai●on de ce , & non autrement . * de conc , l 6. c● 34. par . 2. nunquam discedere oportet ab hac certis●ima regula , deliberationes ec●lesiae gallica●ae considerari non posse a●●ter quam vel●t conssilium regi datum , ●asque execu●ioni non posse ma●dari absque consensu & confirmatione ej●s * tanquam caput , comme chef ibid. * an ex ●o quod ●uprema canonum pro●ectio ad regem pertiner , sequatur cum jubere posse ut observenture , non expectata etiam senten●ia ecclesiae gallica●ae . * certum quidem est carum constitutionum obseruationum sore sanctiorem , si conderentur cum generali cleri consensu ; quoniam unusquisque ●am rem obtinere modis omnibus cupit quam ipso suo judicio comprobaverit . n●hilominus aeque certum est regem ex sententia concili● sui , quod auget aut minuit prout ei luber , posse latis edictis decernere ut ●ano●es observenture , ac circumstantias & modos necessarios addere ad saciliorem eorum executionem , sive etiam ad veram eorum mentem explicandam , eolque accommodare ad utilitatem regni lib. 6. c. 36. par . 1. * utuntur adhuc eo jure reges christianissimi . ●b par . 3. * collect. const●tut . imperial . t. 3. p. 373 pi● quarti imperium de●ractamus , quaecunque sint ejus judicia & sentenciae rejicin●us , respui●●us , & contemnimus . et quanquam , pures sanctissimi , vestra omnium religio , vita , & eruditio magnae apud nos semper suerit & erit autoritatis , cum tamen nihil ● vobis● sed omnia magis romae , quam tridenti agantur , & quae hic publicantur magis p●● quarti placita , quam conci●ii tridentini decreta jure aestimentur , denunciamus & protest amur quaecunque in hoc conventu , hoc est , solo pii nutu & voluntate ●ecernuntur & publicantur ea neque regem christianishmum probat●rum● nequ● ecclesiam gadicanam pro de●reto o●cumenici concilii habituram . interea quo●quot estis galliae archiepiscopi , episcopi , abbates , doctores , theologi , vos omnes hinc abire rex christianissimus jubet , redituros ut primum l●eus optimus maximus ecclesi●e catholic in general 〈◊〉 counciliis antiquam sormam & libert●tem restituerit , regiautem christianissimo suam digni atom & majestatem . * spelm. conc. p. 1●8 . * spelm. a. c. 601. * inauditum in regno suo esse & usibus ejus omnino contrarium , quemlibet de principibus & praecipue te tale quid praesumere , eadm . p. 39. 30. * quod per angllam auditum in admirationem omnibus veni● , inaudi●um scilicet in britannia cuncti scientes quemlibet hominum super se vices . postolicas gerere nisi solum archiepiscop●m cantuariae . ead. p. 58. 41. * quapropter sicut venit , ita reversus est à nemine pro legaro susceptus , nec in aliquo legati officio sunctus . ibid. * ger dorob . coll. hist. angl. 1663. 24. col. 1615. 60. * episcopi angliae suffraganei sancti thomae literis ejusdem sui rchiepiscopi apostolica legatione fungentis exagitati , resilientes , haud ( ut par erat ) parere mandatis . salubres admon●tiones ●uscipere , catholicae ecclesiae u●i●●tati consulere , vendicantes ea●● à ●●iserrima servitute studuerunt , sed ex adverso oppositi pro rege contra ipsum ser●ptis , verbis , sactisque repugnant , ac tantum abest ut ( quod eorum muae●i erat , ad quod & suis cos literis exci●averat ipse sanctus ) adversus regein pro ecclesia starent , redarguerent , & comminarentur ; ostentantes qu●e in arcu sagittae paratae era●t ad ferie●dum . censuras nimirum ecclesiasticas ab ecclesia ●omana apostolico vigore prodeuntes , ut potius adversus ●undem pro ecclesiae libertate pugnantem sanctissimum virum bella cierent , telis oppe●erent jurgiorum , in scandalum omnium ista audientium episcoporum orthodoxorum . b. r. an. a. c. 1167. * quid aliud hic henricus secundus t●cte postulavit , quam quod henricus octavus completa jam malitia apert●u surpavit , nempe ut supremum ecclesiae caput in anglia esset ? * quid hoc est aliud , nisi ut rex angliae sit apud ●uos pap ? * cokes inst. l. 4. c. ●4 . * 1. eliz. c. 1. * tw●sd c. 5. par . 2. * chap. 5 par . ●4 . c. 6. par . 8. * vobis & posteris vestris regibus angliae committimus advocationem ejusdem loci , & omnium totius angliae ecclesiarum , & ut vice nostra cum concilio episcoporum statuatis ubique quae j'usta sunt . * 1 pet. ii. 13. * rom. xiii . 1. * in hoc reges , sicut eis divinitus praecipitur , deo serviunt in quantum reges sunt , si in regno suo bona jubeant , mala prohibeant , non solum quae pertinent ad humanam societatem , verum etiamu quae pertinent ad divinam religionem . aug. contra crescon . 1. 3. c. 51. * hae leges hactenus observationem merentur , quod ex iis . constat , etiam illis temporibus , reges saxonicos alfredum & edvardum sensisse se suprematum habere tam in ecclesiasticos , quam in laicos , neque ecclesiam , quae in ipsorum ditione esset , esse quid peregrinum , vel principi alicui extraneo subditam , domi autem civitatis legibus solutam , quod anselmus , beckettus , aliique deinceps insecuti acriter contenderunt . vita alfr. lib. 2. par . 12. * exipsius ( alfredi : legibus constat vel suprematum illum romanum ist is quidem temporibus nondum eo modo ; quo posterioribus saeculis , sase extulisse , scilicet ut christiani principes angustius reg●arent ; vel si eatenus pertigerit , non tamen eo usque se ei adjeci sse alfred . lb. * rex viam ingressus est , qua universali isti imperio , quod crassis temporibus recens extruxerant ( pontificii ) & absolvere deproperarant , ruinam & excrdium minaretur . l. 3. par . 98. * neque hoc sane penitus omittendum , videtur , quod inter decalogum recitandum secundum quidem praeceptum de sculptilibus non faciendis ex usu secundi concilii niceni ante centum annos celobrati suo loco plane praetermissum est . veruntamen ut ex ipso sanctorum bibliorum contextu quod deest suppleretur , post decimum quod dicimus mandatum aliud insuper ad justum numerum absolvendum , adjicitur . non tibi facies deos aureos . quod , cum ab ipso rege subjungitur , ecclesiam jam tum corrupti dogmatis arguit , rectae autem confessionis regi testimonium perhibet . l. 2. par . 5. * errores ( authoris ) retinuimus , & perperam scripta medicari potius , quam tollere maluimus . * ref , justif. p. j. c. 2. * quatenus inclytissimorum progenitorum & antecessorum vestrorum laudabilia vestigia gratiose considerantes dignetur vestra ●egia celsitudo pro conservatione dictae ecclesiae anglicanae ad deilaudem &c : super novitatibus & excessibus praedictis in praesenti parliamento providere de remedio opportuno tw . c. 5. par . 19. * lbid . * cokes instit. l. 3. s. 648. ep. * consid. concerning luther §. 48. p. 90. §. 3. p 4. §. 5. p. 12. §. 8. p. 16. §. 14. p. 18. §. 22. p. 29. §. 27. p. 36. §. 25. p. 31. §. 26. lb. § 34. p. 39. §. 43. p. 56. §. 166. p. 187. §. 185. p. 214. * art. 37. * sparrow's collection pag. 83. lond. 1684. pag. 36 pag. 99. p 240. * heylins ref. justified , part . 1. §. 6. * burn ref. ● . 3. p. 182. * convocatis undique dictae academiae theologis , habitoque complurium biorum spatio ac deliberandi tempore sasatis ampl● , quo interim cum omni qua potuimus diligentia , justitiae ●elo , religione & conscientia incorrupta perscruta remur tam sacrae scripturae libros quam super iisdem approbatissimo's interpretes , & eos quidem saepe & saepius a ●obis evolutos , & exactissime collatos , repetitos , & examinatos , deinde & disputationibus solennibus palam ac publice habitis & celebratis tandem in hanc sententiam unanimiter omnes convenimus ac concordes fuimus viz. romanum episcopum majorem aliquam jurisdictionem non habere sibi a deo collatam in sacra scriptura in hoc regno angliae quam alium quemvis episcopum . antiq. oxon lib. 1. pag. 259. * ref. 1. 2. p. 142. pag. 2. §. 2. * ibid. p. 137. * ibid. p. 144. * book of educ● ox. 1677 p. 86. a in ●●s , quae exterioris politiae sunt , ut praecipiat , suo sibi jure vindicat , tort , p. ●80 . b custos est non modo secundae tabulae , sed & primae . p. 381. c quodcunque in rebus religionis reges israel fecetunt , id ut ei faciendi jus sit ac potestas . ib. d leges autoritate regia ferendi , ne blasphemetur deus , ut jejunio placetur deus ; ut festo honoretur . ib. e delegandi qui de lege sic lata judicent ib. f siqui in leges ita latas committant , ●tsi , religionis causa sit , in eos autoritate regia an●madvertendi ib. g non ut totus ab alieno ore pendeat , ipse à se nihil dijudicet . ib. h omnibus omnium ordinum jus dicendi . ib. i abiathar ipsum , si ita meruit , pontificatu abdicandi . 382. k excelsa diruendi . i. e. peregrinum cultum abolendi . ib. l sive in idololatriam abeat vitulus aureus ; sive in superstitionem serpens aeneus , utrumque comminuendi . ib. m haec primatus apud nos jura sunt , ex jure divino . ib. n pag. 13. o jurisd , reg. ep. p. 137. p id. p. 10. q epilog . pag. 391. r church government , pag. 390. s church government , pag. 391. t ductor dub. 1. 3. c. 3. r. 4. u ibid. r. 5. x ibid. r. 7. y ibid. r. 7. n. 9. z ibid. r. 8. a ibid. r. 8. n. 6. b ibid. 1. 3. c. 4. r. 8. c bp. br. works tom. 1. p. 88. d ibid. p. 76. * educ . p. 98. e ibid. p. 156. f f. i. k. b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . adv. to the pr. of wales . g ibid. cap. 17. h adv. to the pr. of wales . i serm. of the right of assemblies . a field of the church . 1. 5 c. 52. b soave hist. of conc. tr. pag. 77. pag. 37. pag. 70. * burn. his. ref. part . 2. i. 1. p. 127. 165. ibid. p. 127. a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 can. 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 can. 7. here the council decrees that ancient customs should prevail ; that the priviledges of all churches in their distinct provinces should be kept inviolable . we desire the bishop of rome's patriarchate over the britannic churches should be prov'd to be an antient custom ; and if not that the priviledges of these churches may be preserv'd . b the fathers of the ephesine council having decreed that the cyprian prelates should hold their rights untouch●d and unviolated , according to the canons of the holy fathers , and the ancient customs , ordaining their own bishops , and that the bishop of antioch who then pretended jurisdiction over them , ( as the bishop of rome now doth over us ) should be excluded , add farther . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 &c. cone . eph. can. 8. let the same be observ'd in other diocesses , and all provinces every where , that no bishop occupy any other province , which formerly and from the beginning was not under the power of him or his predecessors . if any do occupy any province , or subject it by force , let him restore it . now we plead the cyprian priviledges , and desire we may be exempted from the jurisdiction of the bishop of rome till it is prov'd that he or his predecessors did from the beginning exercise any power in these churches . c ep. 54. d true dif . part . 2. * petr. de marc. l. 6. c. 25. §. 8. * marca de conc. imp. & sac. cap. 8. * 1 king. c. 2. v. 35. * 2 chr. 19. 11● . * v. 8. * hos. 4. 15. * 2 king. c. 17. v. 9. pag 26. * sch c 7. §. 5. * bp. br. wor. tom. 1. p. 360. ●p . 142. * educ . p. 119. * soave hist● conc. tr. p. 153. * 2 king. 38. 22. * 2 king. 23. 9. * mat. 26. 27. pag. 38. * p. 260. * 1 tim. c. 1. v. 19. * conc. const. sess. 13. * guide in controv. disc. 1. c. 6. par . 56. * mat. 16. 6. 12. * mat. 24. 4. * gal. 1. 8. * 2 cor. 1. 24. * gal. 2. 11. 14. * rev. 18. 4. * babylonia apud joannem romanae ●rbis figura est . tertuladv . marc. i. 3. c. 13. roma quasi secunda babylon●a est . aug. de civit● de● . i. 18. c. 2. baxter's book entitul'd the cure of church-divisions answer'd & confuted and he prov'd to be a physitian of no value who hath manifested his folly and weakness in undertaking a work which he hath so little understanding in / by thomas taylor. taylor, thomas, 1618-1682. 1671 approx. 142 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 32 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a64259) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 43016) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1317:5) baxter's book entitul'd the cure of church-divisions answer'd & confuted and he prov'd to be a physitian of no value who hath manifested his folly and weakness in undertaking a work which he hath so little understanding in / by thomas taylor. taylor, thomas, 1618-1682. 62 p. s.n.], [london : 1671. reproduction of original in the harvard university library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng baxter, richard, 1615-1691. -cure of church-divisions. church polity. 2004-07 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-09 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-10 melanie sanders sampled and proofread 2004-10 melanie sanders text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-01 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion baxter's book , entitul'd , the cure of church-divisions , answer'd & confuted . and he prov'd to be a physitian of no value : who hath manifested his folly and weakness in undertaking a work which he hath so little understanding in by thomas taylor . for , from the least of them , even unto the greatest of them , every one is given to covetousness , &c. — they have heal'd also the hurt of the daughter of my people with sweet words , saying , peace , peace ; when there is no peace , jer. 6.13 , 14. — but ye are forgers of lyes ; ye are all physitians of no value , job 13.4 . printed in the year , 1671. baxter's book , entitul'd , the cure of church-divisions , answer'd & confuted . richard baxter , a man , who through a shew of learning and religion , had gotten ( in oliver crumwel's dayes ) a great esteem in the minds of the ignorantly zealous professors of religion in this nation , and especially in the parts of worcester-shire , about kidderminster , where he then resided ) hath since the change of the times , and coming in of the old common-prayer-book again , much manifested his nakedness , confusion , and unsoundness to every eye , that in any measure is open to see the difference of truth and error in the ground of it , as by his works appear : and that it is so , amongst other things , that book of his , falsly call'd , the cure of church-divisions , which i have now under-hand to answer , doth plainly manifest : for , instead of curing divisions , he hath shew'd himself to be a physitian of no value , & so instead of curing hath struck at ( under a judas kiss of unity & concord ) the very life and foundation of all true christian unity and amity ; to wit , the free and perfect teachings , and gifts , and work of the spirit of truth ( the spirit of the father and son in his believing members ) whereby they cry in a spotless mind , abba father , and freely and powerfully declare the glory of his kingdom to the children of men ; and instead thereof , would bring in and establish that soul-deceiving and church-dividing doctrine of humane learning and humane helps , as absolutely necessary to the procuring and engaging , as it were , the holy unlimited god to give unto the creature his holy spirit , and the knowledge of the mysteries of his eternal will and kingdom for the same ; as in answer to an objection in the 6th page of his book , in his first direction ( so call'd ) is to be seen . the objection against his carnal reasonings , for old men's knowledge , is in pag. 5. where he saith . i know those that i have to do with will say , that divinity is not learn't by labour and men's-teaching , as other sciences and arts are ; but by teaching , ( i add , yea , and most free gift ) of the spirit of god , and therefore the youngest may have as much of it as the eldest . and to this r. b. there thus answers . answ. there is some truth ( saith he ) and some falshood , and much confusion in this objection . reply , but o the darkness , ye● , rather enmity , that is in baxter's heart against the free teaching of god's spirit ! that he would find any thing against so plain and manifest truth , as is in this objection ! but what will not flesh do that is lifted up with conceits of his own wisdom , to keep up its honour before the people , rather then the pure undoubted truth of the gospel , and self-abasing spirit of truth , should raign and have the preheminence . but let us hear how this r.b. proves that , that there is either 〈◊〉 or confusion in the objection . it is true ( saith he ) that the saving knowledge of divinity must be taught by the spirit of god ; but it is false , that labour and humane teaching are not the means which must be us'd by them who will have the teaching of the spirit . but to this i say , that a child of light , in the least measure , doth easily see the falshood of that spirit , by which this r.b. is acted in this his answer : for the wind of the spirit bloweth where it listeth , and thou hear'st the sound thereof , thou natural man ; but neither knows whence it comes , nor whither it goes ; so is every one that 's born of god : and without this birth , all thy knowledge is damning , not saving , john 3.7 , 8. &c. and job 32.7 , 8. i said dayes should speak , and multitude of years should teach wisdom : but there is a spirit in man ; and the inspiration of the almighty giveth them understanding . and saith god , it shall come to pass in the last dayes , that i will pour out my spirit upon all flesh ; and they shall all know me , from the least to the greatest : yea , and young-men shall see visions , and servants and hand-maids shall prophesie : and ye have receiv'd an unction from the holy one : and ye know all things , ( saith the apostle john ) and ye need not that any man teach you . this is the day of the lord , wherein these things are fulfill'd ; prais'd be god : and the new covenant aboundantly witness'd in the children of light , whom this wicked book of baxter's strikes at ; but his wickedness turns upon his own pate , and his own inquities shall slay him : for he , by his carnal wisdom ; would darken knowledge , and shut the kingdom of heaven against men , as his predecessors of old , the pharisees mention'd mat. 23. did : but the lord hath open'd a door to the believing souls this day , which all the powers of darkness shall never be able to shut ; glory to his name forever . but what is that labour and humane means that people must use for getting the spirit of god , or saving knowledge of divinity , as he calls it : is it tumbling over a ruck of books , stuffed with art and humane wisdom , or learning from below ; as this r.b. hath long done , to the darkning of his heart from the knowledge of god , and way of his spirit ; so that he knows nothing of it after all his long lost labour , but what he knows naturally , as a bruit beast ( and that 's plain ) for it sanctifies him not , as by his confessing , that his best duties , even his prayers are not without sin ; and affirming , that no man prayes without sin ? as in his book is to be seen , page 195 , and in his preface . and so the prayer of faith , and preaching by the spirit , he is ignorant of ; yea , preaching by the spirit is become a mock and a derision to him and his brethren at this day : but paul , and all the ministers of christ , magnifie the free grace and infinite gift of the spirit of god , according to that ( 2 cor. 3. ) saying , not that we are sufficient of our selves to think a good thought ; but our ability is of god , who hath made us able ministers of the new testament ; not of the letter , but of the spirit ; for the letter kills , but the spirit gives life : and that which the eye hath not seen , nor ear heard , nor hath entred into the heart of man ( or humane heart ) to conceive , hath god reveal'd to us by his spirit ; for the spirit searcheth all things , yea , the deep things of god ; and which things we preach or speak not in the words which man 's ( or humane ) wisdom teacheth , but which the holy ghost teacheth , comparing spiritual things with spiritual , 1 cor. 2. but this r.b. comparing spiritual things with carnal , is not wise , who , because old men , and long students in arts and worldly sciences are most wise , or likely to be so ; therefore they that labour and study most in books of divinity ( so call'd ) get most of the spirit 's teaching . o sad ! that ever the minds of the children of men should be so cover'd with darkness , and yet read the scripture of truth , which witnesses to no one thing more then to the free teachings of the spirit of god , without humane helps ! for all the help that is humane , or that man who is ( ab humo , that is ) from the earth can afford , is but natural , and of this world , which comes to nought ; therefore is it said , that none of the princes ( that is , the chief men ) of this world knew the mystery of christ and his kingdom then , which made them so band against him , see the 2d psalm . and the natural man , with all his natural means , discerns not the things of the spirit of god , because they are spiritually discern'd : so every one that would know the mind of the spirit of god , must come to feel ( through the most holy faith ) a measure of it in themselves : for , after ye believ'd , ye were seal'd with the spirit of promise , saith paul : and the word is nigh thee , even in thy heart and mouth : o thou that hast an ear to hear , hear what the spirit speaks , even the word of faith , which we preach . therefore go not forth from the anointing of god in thy heart , to hear the frothy and false doctrine of such as r.b. who have run and set up themselves by their humane helps , in the place of teachers , and god never sent them , and therefore they cannot profit the people at all ; but lead them about , like silly women , laden with divers sins and lusts ; yea , in their prayers and best performances , as is manifest ; and so , not being sent and enabled by god's spirit , they can never lead you to it , but from it , as is manifest . also r. b. in pag. 6. before mention'd , saith , the objection hath much confusion in it . ( and how proves he that , but by saying ) 1. it confoundeth the spirit 's teaching us , by inditing the scripture with the spirit 's teaching us the meaning of the scriptures . 2. and it confoundeth the common knowledge of divinity , with the saving knowledge of it . no man cometh to a common knowledge , fit for a teacher of others , without the spirit 's teaching by the scriptures ; for that was the first part of the spirits teaching us , to inspire the prophets and apostles , to deliver a teaching word to the churches , by which we might all be taught of god through all generations . but many men have excellent common knowledge by this word , and by the common help of the spirit , without that special help , which begetteth saving knowledg : and all knowledge requireth time and labour to obtain it , though the spirit giveth it , and though it may be sanctified to us in a little time ; but that may be a means of saving others , which saveth not the man that hath it . and in pag. 114. farther saith , take them not for no ministers that want grace totally : and marvel not that gifts are more necessary to the validity of ministration , then grace is ; he may perform the office of a minister to the benefit of the church , that hath no saving grace at all . thus for rich , baxter . o! what sorcery and egyptian-darkness is here , to make void the new covenant , and free gratious teachings of the spirit of god in these dayes , and to establish the letter in the room and stead thereof , which only witnesses to it , and is a declaration concerning what the spirit of god did in them , and in the world before christ's coming in the flesh , and what was done during his being in it , and what the spirit would do in the believing souls , and in the world after that time ? but this the hirelings do , that they by their trading with , and giving their false meanings upon the scriptures , they may keep the people in blindness , and so from the anointing , and teaching , and enjoyment of that spirit that was in them that gave forth scriptures , that they may not see their deceitful doctrines and merchandizes , lest they should buy no more of them : for no man that knows the badness of babylon will buy them any more , and then will the merchants of souls mourn : for , they that know the lord , and his spirit 's teaching in them , which is the good old way , yea , and the ever new , fresh , profitable , and living way ; will follow no more such men , as would bring in , and establish a graceless ministry , as this baxter doth here , to his everlasting shame . but such graceless priests the lord will have none of ; nor his people neither : for my sheep hear my voice , saith christ , and a stranger they will not hear : surely a graceless man is this stranger : they ( to wit , graceless men , saith john , 1 epist. 4. ) are of the world , and the world hear them ; we are of god ; stewards of the manifold grace of god , 1 pet 4 10 and they that are of god hear us . and so , ever bless'd and prais'd be the great and glorious name of the lord jesus , who hath restor'd to them that obey him , the glorious doctrine of the spirit 's teaching , as was in the apostles dayes , according to his true promise ; where all in the truth ( of which we , the people of god , in scorn call'd quakers , are members ) where all , i say , is done in and by the holy spirit , prais'd be god , and nothing own'd among'st us , but what is so done : here is praying in and by the spirit , and preaching in and by the spirit , and singing in and by the spirit of our holy lord god ; and so the head being spiritual , and the members of the body every one spiritual ( for we are all baptiz'd by one holy spirit into the one heavenly body ) our food is also spiritual heavenly bread , and heavenly wine , and the water spiritual that sanctifies us , and makes us clean to god in all our sacrifices and services : for christ gave himself for his church , which is his body , that he might wash it , and present it spotless to himself , and without all deformity , by the washing of water ( even the water of life ) in the word of life , the creating word of the everlasting father , which is spirit and life , the resurrection and the life in every believing soul ; for we are redeemed from death thereby , that we might forever hereafter serve god , in the newness of his own spirit , and not in the oldness of the letter , as all such do as know no other teaching word but the letter , as this baxter doth ; and so they having gotten a little brain-knowledge by their humane helps , and not by the spirit of truth , they wrest scripture to their own and others destruction , desiring and boasting themselves to be masters and teachers of others , whilst themselves need teaching what the very principles , or beginning doctrines of the true christian religion is , as is plainly manifested by his seeking to bring in a graceless minister , or woolf into christ's fold , surely the woolf comes not but to rob and destroy . all that ever came before me , saith christ , are thieves and robbers , and never came in by the door , as its plain , the graceless man , doth not , but hath clim'd up another way by his humane helps , as baxter speaks ; and to this purpose , see john the 10th , and mat. 23. where christ at large sets forth such woolfish teachers ; who can perk themselves up in places of teachers , by the world's help outwardly ; but will neither enter into the kingdom of god themselves , nor suffer others , but shut up the kingdom of heaven against men , by such deceitful doctrine and antichristian inventions , as this baxter hath , by saying , that gifts are more necessary to the validity of ministration , then grace is ; and that he may perform the office of a minister to the benefit of the church , that hath no saving grace at all ; and all knowledge requireth time and labour to obtain it , though the spirit giveth it ; which last saying doth directly thwort and contradict the scripture ; which saith , i was found of them that sought me not , i●a 65.1 . and paul sets believing and working in this great matter of the knowledge of god and christ to salvation , one against the other , as the way of the law and gospel , for 〈◊〉 that 〈◊〉 , saith he , is the reward recko●'d of debt , not gift of grace ; but to 〈…〉 it is of grace , to the glory of gods great love to man ; for saith scripture , god so loved the world , that he gave his son , that whosoever on him believe , should not perish ; but have life eternal ; and none can truely say , but those are the best 〈◊〉 , and wisest people that have eternal life in them ; though they never laboured for it , nor sought for it ; and so such as this baxter , who looks at all , as obtain'd by time and labour , they are those spiritual proud ones , who are swelled so big with spiritual pride , that self idolizing sin , which , as himself saith , in his second direction ( so called ) is the great rebel against god , the chief part of the devil's image ; that one sin which breaketh every commandment ; the heart of the old man , the root and parent , and summery of all other sin ; the antichristian vice , which is most directly contrary to the life of christ , &c. and these letter-wise-men , that have patched together a garment of fig-leaves , to cover their sinful nakedness , are proud of meer supposed spiritual excellencies ; for the way of the blessed spirit , and its free gifts , and free workings in the children of men , they are strangers unto ; and then through their humane , learning and lost labour , having gotten a little or a great deal of talk from the letter of the scripture concerning religion , in their earthly spirits , which sees nothing of the kingdom of god ; they condemn the generation of the just , whom god teacheth and blesseth with all spiritual knowledge in heavenly things , and call them spiritually proud ; because they cannot but speak very highly , and yet in the truest humility of heart , concerning the great things that god hath done for their souls ; and because they cannot joyn with the wicked whom god abhoreth , neither in their worship , nor other sinfull customs . and so out of that old bottel , come all those unsavory expressions of r. b. before mentioned , against the free teachings of god's spirit ; yea so great an enemy he is to the wholsom doctrine of free grace , that pag. 7. he saith , is it not blaspheming of god's spirit to make it the patron of mens sloth and idleness under pretence of magnifiying grace . to which i answer , that pretending we deny , and truely say , with the apostle , that god who commanded light to shine out of darkness , hath shined in our hearts , to give us ( yea , most freely without our own labour , or any humane help ) the knowledge of the glory of his kingdom ; and those that call this doctrine , either in the apostle , or us , a patronizing of sloth and idleness , are those that do really blaspheme god's spirit which teacheth it . but many texts ( saith r. b. ) commands us diligence ; and sloth is a great sin. to which i say , the scripture indeed commands a diligent improvement , and holy exercise of the free gifts which the spirit hath giveth the faithful : but the scripture never said , that humane labour and helps are the means to be used for getting the spirit 's teachings ; and without which no knowledge in spiritual matters is now received ; stir up the gift of god in thee , saith paul to timothy , so say i ; but he no where puts the humane or carnal man to work or labour to get the spirit ; for that is quite contrary to this scripture , gal. 3.2 . as also rom. 9.16 . obj. but this baxter asks this question , why hath god settled a teaching office in his church , and commanded all to attend , and hear , and learn ; if we are taught by the spirit without man's help ? why were the apostles sent forth into all the world , & c ? answer , here is the great stumbling of these unbelievers , ( the worldly wise ones indeed ) what , because god in his free unlimitted spirit did begift men , and in his own spiritual power sent them forth to preach and publish all abroad the glory of his kingdom , and good will to men ; cannot people therefore be taught by the spirit without man's help ? what reasonings this ? when the scripture expresly saith , that all the gifts and alities , helps , and means of bringing people to god , and the knowledge , and enjoyment of all the good things of his kingdom , are meerly , solely & wholly from god & his blessed spirit 's free gift in christ , and not from man at all : and therefore , when the corinthians began to look at man , whether paul , or apollo , or cephas , he calls it carnal , and said , christ was not divided ; signifying , plainly it was christ , and the spirit of his power that alone did all in all ; as christ said , john 15. without me you can do nothing ; for in the true church christ ever was , and ever will be all in all , & man nothing ; as paul said of himself , paul is nothing : but in the false church where r. b. is pleading for man ; yea graceless ministers , man is all , and christ suffered to have no rule : but those mine enemies , saith christ , that would not that i should rule , bring them and stay them before my face . but what sottishness is this in r. b. to ask such a question as this when himself confessed in the very last words before it ; that none are so forward to preach as these same men that cry down mens teaching : whereby it plainly appears that we do not deny god's teachings , and the spirit 's good and gratious gifts freely given for the edifying and building up of the body of christ ; till we all come to a perfect man , to the measure and feature of the fulness of christ , no more then the apostle did , ephes. 4.11 . &c. but that which we cry down , is that antichristian spirit in r. b. and all such men as by seting up self ; and flesh would draw from christ and his teachings in spirit to look at them , and their painted words , and love killing doctrines ; who are this day goliah like come forth to defie the armies of the living god ; but the stone cut out of the mountain , without hands , shall dash them and their images all to peices : glory to the lord for ever . and though they with their humane or earthly spirit and sorceries , withstand the truth and spirit thereof , as jamnes and jambres withstood moses , when he was about to call israel out of egypt ; yet as their folly was soon seen , so are these , and they shall not proceed far ; but israel out of egypt shall go , and those faithful ones that are escaped shall they not with all their inchantment bring back again into egypt : glory to the lord for ever amen . but wouldst thou indeed know , oh vain man , r.b. for what the apostles , who had ability to preach ( without mans help ) were sent forth , then thou mayst know , it was to reprove such as thee that would limit god to vain man's help , and to call his people from amongst you , who lay heavy burdens on mens shoulders , but will not touch them with one of your fingers ; it is even so . but whereas thou addest and say'st , those are taught of god , who are taught by those who are sent of god to be their teachers : it plainly shews the numerous company thou boasts of , who believe thee , are not taught of god ; for thy doctrine already mentioned shews most plainly that thou wast never sent of god ; for never did any , whom god sent , set themselves against the free and gratious teaching and gifts of god's spirit , to establish humane helps , as thou doest : but as if that which thou hast said were nothing , thou addest pag. 8. advise with the experience of all the world ; who was the man that ever you knew , able to expound one chapter in the bible by the inward teachings of the spirit alone , without any labour of his own , or help from others by voice or writting ? where dwelleth the man , who by meer inspiration can turn one chapter out of the hebrew or greek into the vulgar tongue ? and where is the man that can solidly unfold any doctrine of divinity , which he never read or heard of , or can teach that truth , and deny that religion which he was never taught by man. and afterwards in his second direction , and pag. 16. having led his wretched disciples into a laborinth or mist of words , about their uncertainties in their matters of knowledge ; and having advised them to humility , as he calls it , or not to think too highly of their own knowledge ; he there adds , and sayes in that 16th . page especially , if you know your advantages for knowledge have been less then other mens , that you are young ; or that it is but a few years since you entred upon the study of the scriptures ; or that you have not any stronger natural parts then other men ; that you have not had that measure of learning which might further your knowledge of the holy scriptures ; but that others that differ from you have had much more of all these helps and means then you , and have prayed more , and meditated more , &c. and in pag. 17. in his answer to an objection ; which is , that the learnedst men are not always the wisest in the matters of religion ; he saith , many men are learned in the languages and sciences , who are not learned in the scripture ; because they applyed not their studies that way ; and many men are learned in the scriptures and sacred languages who yet live in sin , though they are able to teach the truth , for others : ( here by the way ) all may take notice what a false teacher this baxter is , who is not ashamed to say , that man that lives in sin , may teach the truth for others ; for such as live in sin neither know the truth ( which is christ ) nor have seen him , ( as john's first epist. chap. 3. expresly saith ) but this baxter goeth on and saith : but those that well understand the scriptures without learning the languages which they are written in , and the customs of those times , and countries , or without much reading , and long study of the scriptures themselves , and the writings of them that better understand them , are so few , if any at all ; that if you will pretend to be one of them , you had need of some miracle , or somthing like a miracle , to make your selves or others believe that you are not deceived . i might here add his other false doctrines immediately following these in that his book , as his answer to an objection there set down against singularity , or so ; the objection is this : the greater number are not alwayes in the right ; therefore why should my singulary discourage me : but because his answer hath pretty many words in it , i refer it to another place , and to what he hath already said do answer , and say in brief thus . first , that as by his other words , so also by these it is most , manifest from what fountain this baxter's knowledge hath proceeded , to wit , not from the inspiration of the eternal spirit , which gave forth scripture ; but from his own earthly or natural spirit and humane industery and studies , and trading in books and letters without him , from which earthly or humane spirit and wisdom hath not come ( nor possible ever can come to any ) the right meaning and understanding of holy scripture ( as such as he would have it ) for the natural man as the apostle saith , perceiveth not the things that be of the spirit of god , 1 cor. 2.14 . but all false visions , and lying divinations have ever come from that earthly spirit , and all the cruel wrestings of the holy scriptures from the beginning to this day , have proceeded from it , to the miserable and wofull undoing of the generallity of that people called christendom ; as also the blood-sheds , and all the cruel usage of spiritual minded men , for their pure conscience sake , have issued from that fountain of the earthly spirit , and the false births thereof from the beginning , and that great whore found guilty of all ; for in her was found the blood of prophets , and of saints , and of all that were slain upon the earth , r●●● . 18.24 . for what spiritual man did ever ask such a question , or rather affirm ; for in him , his question is an affirmation , to wit , that no man is able by the inward teachings of the spirit alone to expound one chapter in the bible : and that there is none can solidly unfold any doctrine of divinity , which he never read or heard of , or can teach the truth , or defend that religion which he was never taught by man. oh happy therefore are they who are come to the everlasting covenant of god , and to know the inward teachings and leadings of his holy spirit in their heart , to lead them into all truth according to promise , joh. 16. without being beholding to vain man's help ; for whereof is he to be accounted , as is manifest , even as a thing of naught , is the best of them , out of the truth : for o! how ignorant of the ministry of god and christ , and the holy spirit 's inspiration , sufficient teaching , is this baxter , who is not content to sit among the parish teachers , as a fellow ; but even takes upon him to be a teacher of the teachers ? yea , so ignorant and unbelieving is he concerning the spirit 's power and sufficiency in these dayes , that without an outward miracle he will not believe any such thing : nay he would not have people believe , for themselves , that god teacheth their own hearts , unless it come in man's way , and by humane study , labour , and natural means : therefore the lord saw good for his own glory , and for the vindication of his own honourable and everlasting truth , which the hirelings had made void by their traditions ; and for the absolute necessity of his own beloved seed , to restore unto us the ancient doctrine of the holy spirit 's sufficiency in all the work of bringing man out of the fall to god , that the lord , the spirit , might be the first and the last ; yea all in all in their salvation , without man's help ; for he is worthy , who as he created all things , by his own alone power , and according to his good will ; so he restores all things according to the counsel of his own will , and not of flesh , nor of blood , nor of the will of man , as the apostle also speaks , joh. 1.13 . but , oh , how unlike is this doctrine of the apostle's , to baxter's ; for when the apostle had said , to them that received christ , to them he gave power to become the sons of god ; left any should think , as this baxter doth , that it was either by man's labour , or study , or humane endeavour , or art , or parts ; or any natural abilities or helps whatsoever ; he saith , it was not of flesh , nor of blood , nor of the will of man , but of god. and of his own will begat he us , by the word of truth , saith that other apostle , jam. 1.17 , 18. and he bids not err , as this baxter doth , to set up another fountain or root ; and that this word of truth is not any outward writing , voice , or any creature , john in his first chapter tells us , that in the beginning was this word , and the word was with god ; and is god ; and his name is called the word of god , revel . 19.13 . so this word , though it works according to the witness of the scripture , which it gave forth freely , and as it self pleaseth , in the children of men ; yet it is not the scripture ; for search the scriptures , or ye do search the scriptures , saith christ , that witness of me , but you will not come to me that you may have life ; and these were they that paul said , he bore them record that they had a zeal for god ( and scripture ) but not according to knowledge ; for they being ignorant of god's righteousness , went about to establish their own righteousness , and submitted not to god's : and so even so this baxter , and many such like , have a blind zeal , and a great talk of the scriptures without , and of the spirit 's teaching by the letter , and humane helps , and the like ; but will not come to christ , to know him in them , that they may have life , and wisdom and righteousness : but would establish their own , which is meer emptiness and vanity in the sight of god and all truly spiritual men , 2 cor. 13.5 . rom. 10.3 . and how far this baxter's language in those other words , where he saith , that if any will pretend to a good understanding of the scriptures , without learning the languages which they are written in , and the customs of those times , countries , or without much reading and long study of the scriptures themselves , and the writings of them that 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 them , had need of some miracle , or sounding 〈…〉 to perswade themselves , or others , that they are not deceived . how far , i say , is this doctrine and language in this 〈◊〉 from the language of the holy men of god that writ scripture let the spiritual man who best understands all things judge ; for the holy apostles magnified the free grace , and the free teachings of the spirit of grace , and debased man and all humane helps , as is said before , and as the scripture every where witnesseth : but this baxter tyeth the wait and main stress of all upon humane learning , natural parts , knowledge of customs and countries , much reading , long study , and the like ; insomuch , that without them , man must not look that any should believe him : nay , nor he must not own god's teaching in his own heart without these ; unlest seconded by some miracle , or the like . but , oh the misery therefore of such poor souls , as follow such wretched teachers , and their damnable doctrine , as i may well and oh forever blessed are they who are brought from off such barren mountains into the good fold , where all the lambs of christ lie down in the good pasture of the spirit 's fulness ; and walk up and down in the light of the lord , under the hand of the good shepherd christ jesus , where none can come to make afraid , nor deceive ; for in the light of our god , we see all these false teachers , and their devouring doctrines ; and by the holy power of god are delivered from them , and made able in the overcoming spirit of truth , to declare against them : glory to god forever , amen . again , let us revew , and consider in particular a little of those words of his before set down ; where he saith , as an argument to perswade his young ones and dissenters , to his falsly called humility . especially saith he , if you know your advantages for knowledge have been less then other mens ; that you are younger , or that it is but a few years since you entred upon the study of the scripture ; or that you have not any stronger natural parts then other men ; or that you have not had that measure of learning , which might further your knowledge of the holy scripture : but that others that differ from you , have had much more of all these helps and means then you ; and have prayed more , and meditated more . &c. to which i answer , that by these words it is easily seen , what manner of knowledge it is that this baxter trades in , and would have all slaves unto ; and what are his means for obtaining it ; to wit , a meer natural knowledge , which by meer worldly helps , and advantages may be attained : for a meer heathen accompanied with many years ; and much humane learning , and strong natural parts , that can but talk much of the scripture ; especially having on him a form of prayer , and the like , must needs go for a better knowing christian with him , then the dearest child of god ; especially if he be young in years , and want those natural helps , and outward appearances . oh what havock hath such doctrine , as this of baxter's , made amongst his deluded hearers ; and admirers in this nation so that now , let the man of god come to one of them in the purest evidence , and most powerful demonstration of the spirit of truth , if he appear not to them cloathed and accompanied with these natural and worldly abilities and indowments ; they are fenced against the lord's messenger with such arguments as these ; you are but young ; you have but studied a while ; you are of slender and mean natural parts ; and little or no schollar-ship ; and have prayed but little , &c. in comparison of our grave and learned divines , and the like : so that as christ said , so we find now true ; that publicans and harlots enter into the kingdom of god before such ; and now what a curer of church-divisions this baxter is like to prove is easily seen ; and therefore that charge which his self-condemned heart fear'd would come upon him , may justly be brought upon him here ; which in his preface to his book , he sets down thus . they will affirm saith he , that i have clawed with one party , and have girded at the other , and have sought to make them odious , by bringing them under the reproach of separation , of censuring and avoiding the ungodly ; and that being luke-warm my self , and a complier with sin , i would have others to do so too : and that these reconcilers are neither flesh , nor fish ; and attempt impossibilities , even to reconcile light and darkness , christ and belial , and that for the sake of peace , we would sell the truth , and would let in church corruptions , out of an over eager desire of agreement ; and when they have all done , neither parties will regard them . these are this baxter's words , in that preface of his to that book ; which is justly come upon him . and indeed ; he may as well go about to reconcile light and darkness , as bring the children of light , whom god hath delivered our of the darkness of , and filthiness of egypt and sodom spiritual , into unity with them again ; for there is enmity put between the two seeds , and those words of christ , in john 17.21 , 22. &c. which he deceitfully puts in the title page of his book , are only proper to the living members of the spiritual body of christ , ( which he calls mystical ) and not to any of the worlds churches , or visible mixt congregations of people whatsoever ; the words of the apostle in john. 17.21 . &c. are weightier then any hypocrite can bear , and they are these : that they all may be one , as thou father art in me , and i in thee , that thou also may be one in us ; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me ; and the glory which thou hast given me , i have given them ; that they may be one , even as we are one : i in them , and thou in me , that they may be made perfect in one ; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me , and hast loved them as thou hast loved me . god is arisen to drive hypocrites from under all such shelter of words , as they would hide themselves under ; for now is the city and kingdom truly manifested and witnessed , into which no uncircumcised , or unclean shall enter ; but only the redeemed born babes , and living members of christ. and now to the knowledge and experience , not of the evil world , but of all that know god do i appeal to judge , whether this r. baxter , or any of like spirit with him , can be said to know any thing of the oneness , betwixt the father and son , the members of his holy heavenly body , much less can be any of them , who are not afraid to affirm , that such are not to be disallowed from being ministers of the gospel ; though they want grace totally : and that gifts are more necessary to the validity of ministration , then grace is ; and that he may perform the office of a minister , to the benefit of the church , that hath no saving grace at all ; ( as pag. 114. of his book aforementioned , and that there is no man alive that worshippeth god without some sin ; and adds , do you ever pray your selves in secret , or in your families with out sin , as in pag. 19.5 . and in pag. 30. of his preface to that book , that there is no person , church , on worship on earth faultless , and with out corruption ; ( and saith there further ) i justifie not the faults of my own daily prayers , and yet i never pray without them . and in pag. 34. &c. that cain was the first born member , in the church of adam's family : and cursed cham was of the church of noah : and reckons lot's two sons in law ; and esau ; yea , and the ten tribes in their apostacy , to be of the church . and so having reckoned up , and raked together , all the faults of the blessed seed of abraham , before christ's coming in the flesh , and of all those called christians after that , mentioned in scripture ; he most wickedly , and imprudently sayes pag. 44. that no one member is in all these scriptures , or any other , commanded to come out , and separate from any one of all these churches ; as if their communion in worship were unlawful , directly contrary to 2 cor. 5.11 . revel . 18.4 , 5 , 6. &c. come out of mystery babylon ( the false church ) saith god , to his people . oh the blasphemy of such mens hearts , that dare intitle wicked men , for a bear profession sake of religion , to the glory of the benefit of this prayer of christ's , who prayes ( and his prayers were alwayes heard ) that his might be one , as he and the father were , and are one ; the father in christ , and christ in them , and so made fellow heirs , and pertakers of the glory of christ by free gift : but neither r. baxter , nor any graceless minister , nor sinful praying people , whom he pleads for , can ever be one , as the father and son are one : therefore i may safely say to you all who desires the good of your souls , and the glory of god : come out from amongst them , and joyn not with them : no , not in their worship actions ( as he calls them ) nor be ye partakers in any of their sins , or sinful worship , lese ye partake of their plagues ; for the temple of god is holy , and the worship of god is holy : and so r. baxter , with all his own corruptions , and all his heaps of lyes , and false accusations of the brethren of christ are for the lake ; it is so . and so i return to set down baxter's unchristian answer , to that former objection against the singularity of separation ; the objection is as before : the greater number are not alwayes in the right ; therefore , why should my singularity discourage me ? now to this baxter answers , pag. 17.18 . the greater number ( saith he ) through the world are not in the right about christianity ; for they are not christians , and the greater number of vulgar christians be not in the right perhaps , in many points of learning , and scholastick controversies ; because they are not learned in such controversies ; but all godly men , and christians , are in the right in all points essential to godliness and christianity : and therefore they are in the certain way of life . and if in any integral , or accedental point , you think you are wiser then the greater part of men , as learned , and as godly as your selves , you must give very good proofs of it , to your selves and others , before it is to be believed : i know that in all ages god giveth some few men more excellent natural parts then others ; and he engageth some in deeper , and more laborious studies then others ; and he blesseth some mens studies more then others ; and therefore there are still some few who know more then the rest of the country , or mankind ; and it were well for the rest , if they knew these , and would learn of them : but these are such , as come to their knowledge by hard and laborious studies , and meditation ; though also by the spirit 's blessing their endeavours : and they are such , as give proof of the knowledge they pretend to ; and they are such as imploy their knowledge to preserve the peace and concord of believers , and do not proudly make a stir with it to set up their own names , though hereby they set the world on fire . to which by way of reply , i answer and say , that there is not the least child of light : but doth truely , and easily see the nature of the spirit , by which this r. b. is still acted , and the end he drives at ; for as for the spirit by which he is acted , it still appears plainly to be the spirit of this world that never knew god , nor the mysteries of his holy and heavenly kingdom , by which earthly spirit ( by much poring on books without him ) he hath attained to a deal of unsanctified graceless ) knowledge , ( as himself speaks pag. 114. ) to deceive the simple people by , who are ignorant of satans devises ; and as for his end , it is also as manifest to be this , to wit , to bring people , who were in some measure pressing out of babylon back into egypt and babylon again , and yet to cover his deceit , lest the simple should see him without an interpreter , he brings in the spirit as to help his humane labour , and carnal endeavours : but the spirit of god , which he strikes at in all his writing , will be no drudge or slave to any such vain self-ended proud mind in any . but of these words , where he saith , that all godly men and christians are in the right , in all points essential to godlyness and christianity ; and therefore in the certain way of life , as he saith . let us consider ; for in his sence , they are most notoriously false and wicked : for as for godly men , who ever imagined otherwise ( much less denied in words or so ) that they were in the right ; but as for that he saith , that all christians , viz. all that were sprinkled when they were children , and that so being grown up , make an outward profession of christ ( for such in spiritual manner he means by christians , as is most manifest ) are in the right , in all points essential to christianity , and so in the certain way of life ; it is such a notorious peice of falshood , and so impudent an assertion , that no one saying can more gratifie the devil , and so help to build up his kingdom , then it doth : nay , it certainly gives the lye to the certain experience and testimony of all the holy men of god , both formerly and now ; for paul said in his day , that many professed , and nominal christians do so walk , as that they were enemies to the cross of christ , whose god was their their belly , and who gloried in their shame , and whose end was destruction , phil. 3. and were these in the right points essentiall to christianity , and in the certain way of life ? what contradiction and blasphemy is this ? and the same apostle tells some among the corinthians , that they had not the knowledge of god , cor. 15. and what , were these right also in all essentials ? what is not the knowledge of god an essential point of christianity ? nay , without the knowledge of god , no eternal life ; and yet this baxter , is not ashamed to affirm , that such as know not god , are in the certain way of life . and further , to the experience of all that know god do i appeal , whether this r. b. doth not here in his blindness , justifie the very papist ; yea , and all other sorts of people , who any way in the outward profess christ ; especially if they be outwardly sprinkled with water , young or old : for , saith he , in his preface , pag. 33. christ hath solemnly and purposely made the baptismal covenanting with him ( to wit , by outward washing ) to be the tearm and title to church-member-ship and communion , and the owning of this same covenant is the sufficient title of the adult ( or those of ripe years ) and the imposers that come after , and require another kind of evedence of conversion , or sanctification then this , do confound the church , and enslave the people , and leave no certain way of tryal . thus far , r. b. by which it appears , whether this baxter , by endeavouring to keep his credit with the world , is wandred beyond all the bounds of reason and modesty : nay , mystery babylon her self , though she be become a cage of every unclean and barefull bird , and a very habitation of devils , must not pass unjustified by him ; but be reckoned to be right in all the essentials of christianity , and in the certain way of life : for without all controversie , this mystery babylon is of that number who in words profess god and christ , and have a name to live , though they be dead , ( as this baxter is ) or it were not a mystery , if it were not covered from the worlds eye , with a shew of what it is not , revel . 17 , 18 , 19. chapters : yet so far is this baxter sunk into the dark pit of antichristian abomination ; that he acounts it an abuse , and false interpreting of scripture , to perswade any from that command [ come out of babylon ] to separate from professed or nominal christians , though full of iniquity , page 32. then which nothing more can gratifie his father , the wicked one , and his adulterous mother , the synagogue of rome ; for though he would seem in some words , here and there , in his book , to be no papist ; yet there is never an argument he brings , for the fellow-ship with dead and corrupted members ; and against those that separate from such ; but they will fully serve , to prove the company of the pope to be a church , and all them to blame who have separated from him in outward church-fellowship upon any pretence whatsoever . so foolish is the world's wisdom when it is set against truth : but this baxter having laid his wicked and false ground ; that all that are called christians are in the right , in all points essential to christianity , and in the certain way of life : he may easily conclude that to be unwarrantable separation which goeth from such : but then i say , how will the protestants warrant their first separation from popery ? or how did this baxter , with his presbyterians in oliver's time , with their directory , excuse their separating from the bishops , and their comon-prayer ? and how will be salve his old non-conforming brethren's flight into new-england ( where since they have shed the blood of the martyrs of christ ) from the former bishops ? but now his false ground and foundation being overturned , it is most manifest that , that separation is most lawfull , which is from such , who call good evil , and evil good , put light for darkness , and darkness for light , as baxter , and all the wicked do ; from whom the people of god in these days separate : and so in obeying the voice of our god , who saith , come out of mystery babylon my people , lest ye pertake of her sins , and so of her plagues , ( we are justified ) for the sins of the wicked , ( who in words , profess god and christ , but in deeds deny all ) is reached heaven at this day : and doth not the apostle say , if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator , or covetous , or an idolator ( and covetousness by the apostle's doctrine is idolatry ) or a railer , or a drunkard , or an extortioner , with such not to keep company , no not as to eat with them 1. cor. 5.11 . and doth he not say in an other place , have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness ( nor with the unfruitful workers in darkness as before ) but rather reprove them , ephes. 5.11 . must we not yet separate from them , yea , yea in their very worship actions as well as others ; and when even the greater number are so far defiled and tainted with the leprosie of unrighteousness ; that they are so far from amending , that they persecute all that will not be as bad as themselves : surely when the lord hath spued out a people , as he threatned to do luke-warm laodicea , revel . 3.16 . yea , and cast them off , for their resisting of his good spirit as he did the jews ; 't is no time for his people to stay amongst them then , and to continue with them in their worship-actions , as he calls them ; but every one to deliver his own soul , by coming out of such babylonish worships ; whose prayers are abomination to god , as all sinful prayers are ; and neither this baxter , nor any one that he knows upon the earth prayeth without sin , as himself before hath confessed ; and so all of them together do daily and continually that which they should not do , and leave undone what the lord commands them , and so have no health in them ; and so now that the true light shines so clear again from under the long cloud of antichristian apostacy ; it is the wisdom of all that love god and their own souls , to joyn to the lord in the covenant of his light and spirit , where no committers of sin can joyn ; for darkness , and the workers thereof , can never joyn with the light , and the workers thereof : so now that the trumpet hath sounded , all ought to come to the holy worship of god , amongst the holy worshippers , that worship in the spirit of holiness and truth ; ( where no worker of iniquity , nor hypocrite can come ) out of all the defiled worship of the world whatsoever or under what name soever in the fall : but this baxter is in such love of hypocrisie , that he makes a necessity , of the hypocrites being amongst the true members of christ , as though they knew not how to do without them ; as if the good corn , could not grow so well if the weeds were wanting ; saying , pag. 56. it is more for the sake of the truely faithfull , then for themselves , that the hypocrites have their station , and priviledges in the church ; god makes use of their gifts and profession for his elect , to many great services of the church . to which i answer , that this language berayes thee further to be of babylon , and not of zion , what r. baxter , with all his seeming zeal for reformation in oliver's dayes , become now a-pleader for the hypocrites , and their great service in the church ! but this is but like his doctrine of his graceless ministers which he pleads for , pag. 114. of his book ; so r. baxter , and his hypocrites , and graceless brethren , with their gifts ( or rather thefts void of grace ) have been so far from being serviceable to the elect true church , that they have done it ( and ever did ) all the injury that ever they can by their wicked doctrines , ungodly lives , and heaps of lyes and false accusations , and cruel persecutions ; in somuch that the growth of the heavenly seed , the lillies of god , the true heirs of the kingdom , hath been , and is , as a lilly among thorns : but christ and richard baxter , are directly contrary in their judgment one to the other ; for christ would not suffer the devil in the man to preach him , but commanded him to come out , and hold his peace , because christ never had need of devils , or wicked men , or hypocrites to preach him ; but saith to such , what hast thou to do , to take my laws and covenant in thy mouth , and hatest to be reformed , psal. 50.16 . &c. and so far are graceless priests and hypocrites from being serviceable in this matter to his church , that he saith , my sheep hear my voyce , and they follow me ; but the graceless minister and hypocrite , who is a stranger to me , they will not hear , for such come but to rob , and destroy , read john 10. and see if ever r. baxrter understood scripture , who talks so contrary to it : as did those pharisees of old , whom christ cried out so many times wo against , mat. 23. who would neither enter into the kingdom of heaven themselves , nor suffer others . and those in ezekiel who , sowed pillows under mens elbows , making glad the hearts of the wicked hirelings , by perswading people that they must not disown them from being ministers , though they be totally void of all saving grace ; and that hypocrites have a station in the church , for great services with their ( graceless ) gifts to the elect ; and by pleading for games , and fashions of apparel ; yea and the opinions in religion of bad people , yea to such a measure , that he is not ashamed to say , that many an error is taken up , by going too far from other mens faults , as is to be seen in pag. 224. of his book , with many such like heathenish sayings , up and down his book ; a few whereof i only touch here and there as they come to mind , that by those the reader may see the nature of that wretched spirit , that hath long lurked in him , under a cloak of zeal for reformation , when the world pretended to such things , but now that the world is for a manifest establishing of their old dark stuff , he turns about and is all for them as it were , and against zeal , against reformation , separation , revelation , or any thing that may manifest people to have a care of their souls : but oh the misery , the misery , the unspeakable misery of such as are not yet redeemed from under the slavery and egyptian bondage of such men : but the lord will break the rod of the oppressor , as in times of old , as in the days of midian and egypt , where both jannes and jambres who withstood the lord's servant moses , in his calling israel out of egypt were made manifest , and their folly by all clearly seen , as this baxter's is by every open eye : praised be the lord for his infinite love in all things . but the hearts of the righteous whom god delights to comfort , he doth all he can to make sad by perswading the dark cruel world , that the cause of all the miseries of the late years , yea , and at present in these islands , is much ( what if not mostly ) occasioned by those , who in tenderness of conscience to god , could not , nor cannot joyn with , nor uphold the popish customs , and antichristian imposition in matters relating to religion , and the soul , which is more pretious to them that know it , then all the world : and in the truth we may say , that if we should come amongst the steeple-house worshippers , or any other company , who are only separated from them in form , and not in life and power , and their exercise , or gift , and heavenly holy worship and service to the lord jesus christ our god , we should even sacrifice the abomination of the egyptians before their eyes ; and would you not stone us , or imprison us , or otherwise evil intreat us , even as you do , and ever have done ? yea yea , and as they dealt with the prophet isaiah for saying ( chap. 66.3 . ) he that killeth an ox , is as if he flew a man , he that sacrificeth a lamb as if he cut off a dogs neck , &c. and chap. 1.11 . &c. to what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me , saith the lord , i am full of them ; and who hath required it at your hands , to tread my courts ? bring no more vain oblations , &c. for which it is said they slew him ; so they would deal with us . and what measure have the dear servants of god in new-england met withal , not long since , for the like witness against those hypocrites , but death and cruel whippings , and banishment ; and in old england lately , but most savage and cruel usage ? and would this baxter yet have us , yea , and those he counts his brethren , and of his flock , who have any tenderness in them to communicate with such whose hands are full of blood ? if he were as the mouth of god , he would put a difference between the clean and unclean : but he being of an other spirit , is for leading people back again into egypt , not for bringing them out of egypt into the promised land ; and so his work and endeavour is accursed of god , and abhorred of all that know god , who are escaped out of sodom and egypt , and babylon spiritual , where our lord was crucified : and to us the lord hath said , let them return to you ( ye saved people ) but return not you to them ; for their pastors are become bruitish , and have not sought the lord ; therefore they shall not prosper , and all their flocks shall be scattered . jer. 10.21 . he that hath ears let him hear , and he that readeth let him understand , for the time is at hand ; for the lord is arisen to plead with all the false worshippers upon earth , and with him is no respect of persons . and now is the lord god of ever blessed power and love appeared in the earth , after the long night of apostacy , to restore all things , and now are the virgins called upon through the whole world , to trim their lamps ; for behold the bridegroom is come and coming , and now the foollish virgins , who have been long sleeping , and slumbering in a dead profession of christ and the scriptures , are found wanting in their faith , holiness , love , and all other christian vertues , and so in their unholiness shut out ; yea , and though they run to the hirelings , that set all things to sale , to buy , yet still before they come , the door is shut ; for whilst the lord stood waiting upon them , with his pure free and full grace and spirit , they would have none of it ; but rather chosed to go their own ways of carnal endeavours , and man commanded religion , and so like the jewes of old , going about to establish their own righteousness , have not submitted to the righteousness of god , which is by faith in christ jesus : but the wise virgins , who are of an honest heart , to fear god , and wait for the lord jesus christ , to appear in their spirits , to set up his heavenly and everlasting kingdom in them , they receive daily of his fulness , which filleth all in all , where the true oyl of the kingdom is found in their holy lamps , to the praise of the glory of the unspeakable love , and free grace of the almighty father , so be it . again , to that part of this baxter's former answer , where he saith , that in all ages , god giveth to some few men , more excellent natural parts then others ; and he engageth some in deeper and more laborious studies , and he blesseth some mens studies more then other ; and therefore there are still some few , who know more then the rest of the country , or mankind ; and it were well for the rest , if they knew these , and would learn of them . quer. but how may one know these hard , and laborious studiers , as he calls them ? oh , saith this baxter , they are such as give proof of their knowledge they pretend to ; and they are such to imploy their knowledge to the preserving of the peace and concord of believers ; and do not proudly make a stir with it , to set up their own names ; though thereby they set the world on fire . to which i answer and say , it is still more and more manifest , that this baxter layes all the weight and stress upon natural parts , and hard studies ; as though the kingdom of god , were not at all come , nor the promise of god concerning the free gifts , and plentifull pouring forth of the spirit , not yet fulfilled ; and so a necessity of learning at the feet of gamaliel , and earthly doctors still : but now that the spirit of truth according to god's blessed promise is come , and witnessed amongst us that believe , praised be god , we cannot go to such as this baxter , with all their natural parts , and hard studies ; for the spirit of truth leads us , and all that obey it into all truth ; but this baxter , and such as he leads , are in all error , as is manifest ; for they are of those , that lead about a company of poor souls , silly as women leaden with divers sins and lusts , ever learning , but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth , which sets free from sin ; for that ( and nothing else ) is the truth , which sets free from sin ; for saith christ , if ye know the truth , the truth shall set you free indeed . but this baxter , and all such , teach it for doctrine , that they are so far from being free from sin , that their very prayers and best performances are not free from sin , but sin is in them all : oh sad , that ever they should dare to pretend to the ministry of the gospel , who preach such a doctrine as make nothing perfect , but leaves them in sin all their lives long : and no wonder that they and their doctrine should be void of all good fruit ; for saith god , they have run , and i have not sent them ; therefore they shall not profit the people at all . and yet they would gladly have people know them , and learn of them , though they can do them no good at all ; and this is that sorry and bad proof , that the hirelings make of their great knowledge they pretend unto , which they have gotten with their natural parts , and hard studies ; and so thy own words shall witness against thee , oh baxter , and thy brethren , who have given no good proof of your knowledge to this day ; nor have thereby preserved peace and concord amongst believers , but done what you can to break it ; for that doctrine that makes not men free from sin , leaves all the seeds of discord and dissention , still in peoples minds ; for as sin separated man from god at first ; so doth it to this day keep them asunder , and so keeps them from love , for god is love ; and none live or dwell in love , but such as live and dwell in god : but such as live in sin , and never pray without it , are out of god , as the apostle said of people in unbelief , they were without god in the world. it is not any outward conformity , that will , or can make them to be at peace with , or love one another ; for if it were possible to bring papist , athist , and carnal protestants and professors of all sorts , into one form of outward worship , as for time , place , words , or the like : yet there would be neither love , peace , nor concord amongst them , for want of unity with god and his good spirit , the onely true ground and foundation of all true love , peace , and concord : and so , oh r. baxter , we have known thee this many years to be a great enemy of god , and therefore we may not learn of thee , nor any such , but of christ do we learn , ever praised be his name , who teaches his people to profit ; and so it s onely the poor deluded multitude that know● thee not , who learn of thee , and suck in such poysoned doctrine , as makes them most uncapable of the pure word of life and doctrine of salvation ; so that publicans and harlots , who make little or no profession , enter into the kingdom of god before you . and as for making a stir with thy knowledg , and striving to set up thy own name thereby , though thou set the whole world on fire by it ; who more notorious then thy self in this r. baxter , as witness all thy lying frothy words , books , and pamphlets which thou hast spoken and written , against the appearance of christ and his truth , in these late years ; but thy studies and thy works god hath cursed ; for no child of light , will ever buy any of thy merchandize , nor the deceitfull wares of any other merchants of babylon for evermore ; blessed be god for his unspeakable gift , amen . but the end of these words of setting the world on fire set down here by this baxter , is easily seen to be this , to wit , to perswade people that those , who are zealous for god in these days in publishing his everlasting gospel upon the earth , in a cross to the world , are such as set up themselves , and would set the world on fire : and so he is manifest to be one of the old evil generation of priests , who accused christ for a mover of sedition , and paul for a pestilent fellow : oh , it was that good stirring spirit of the lord jesus in himself , and his followers , which did so trouble the world , the combustible world in all ages that made , and doth make the hrieling priests , and their deluded followers so rage , and cry out ; but as for setting the world on fire , in a goodsence christ jesus saith , that he came to set fire in the earth : but for setting the world on fire in baxter's sence , that is sowing discord and dissention amongst people ; this is the work , and ever was the work of the hireling priests , who loved to be called of men masters , as this r baxter is ( as is said before ) witness not onely our own age ; but the holy scripture , and the histories of all times and ages , as those that read may understand : and yet these proud masterly and false teachers , were ever the first , and for wardst that cryed against christ and his followers , for disturbing the world's peace ; when as this doctrine of christ's spirit , though it did alwayes disturb the devil's ; yet it did alwayes tend to the working of the hearts and souls of the people into god's peace , and did ever , and doth at this day work this glorious and blessed effect in all that believe : whereof we are witnesses , praised be god , though for the testimony of christ , we are troubled on every side , by the wicked world : so that even now , when the wicked have no peace ( for there is no peace to the wicked ) we whom the world mock , stone and persecute under the nick-name of quakers , or so , have peace in all our dwellings : and within egypt is full of darkness , that one may feel it , yet in our goshen is plenty of light , ever praised be god : and when the world of false christians are learning war , and preparing weapons , we are ceasing from war , and not to learn it any more , as the lord hath said . and therefore , oh ye inhabitants of the earth , if ye knew us , ye would not hate us , and persecute us , but love us with your hearts , because of the good will of our hearts towards you ; for our weapons are not carnal , but spiritual : not for pulling down , or destroying of you , but your enemies , your sins , which wars against your souls : and the reason why we cannot joyn with you , in your liturgyes , and worship-actions , is not because we hate you ; but because we love god , and your souls ; for if we should joyn with you in your defiled worship , as your selves confess they are , we should strengthen you in an evil way : but by our separating from you , because of the unholiness of your sacrifices , occasion may be ministred to you to question your state , and so some of you in time may come out of your darkness , into the marvellous light of the lord jesus with us , and praise the lord in the land of the living , so be it . another of this baxter's follies , and false doctrines , i may here mention , as one may read it in that book of his , that i have under hand , to wit , in pag. 114. are these words ; it may be unlawfull saith he , in a ruler to command a thing that will do no good , because it is a vain command , and maketh men spend that time in vain , and yet be the subject's duty to do it . answ. this is just such doctrine as paul's enemies taught , who said , men might do evil , that good might come of it , whose condemnation was just . so to avoid sufferings from men , he would have us to obey unlawfull commands , which will do no good , but rather a great evil ; to wit , make people spend pretious time in vain : away with such antichristian stuff amongst the heathen , for all true christians abhor it in their hearts , as the lord the good shepheard hath commanded them . and now r. baxter to that part of thy feigned prayer , pag. 252. where in words thou seemest to desire , that god would stir up some faithful friend to tell thee with convincing evidence , where it is that thou hast miscarried , that contrition may prepare thee for the peace of remission . here the lord hath contrary to thy will and desire stirred up one in faithfulness and love to thy soul , and the souls of the poor deluded people whom thou hast deceived , to tell thee plainly of thy faults , and grievous miscarriages , as by what is convincingly in these lines set down doth appear , and might be more abundantly , if all the miscarrages in this book ( onely to let pass all thy other ) were answered unto in particular ; but these in this answer of mine , being as it were least of what the rest are , may satisfie at present . and oh that the righteous judgments of god may come upon thy heart , and the hearts of all them who are in the same false fleshly confidence with thy self ; whose very prayers are not without sin , that you may never have peace day nor night , until you humble your selves before the lord , and repent of all your hard speeches , and evil deeds that you have spoken and done against him and his servants for his truth 's sake ; that if it be possible you may be saved from the wrath that will certainly come upon you , if you repent not ; for that old wicked paper full of lyes , as i made manifest before thee , and some of thy company in thy study ( to thy shame ) at kidderminster , which thou writst in the pride of thy heart against us in oliver's dayes when thou wast lifted up , entituled reasons to perswade , why no reasonable man can be a quaker , amongst the rest of that kind , which thou art not humbled for to this day , as i perceive by this book , do all stand upon record before the lord , the righteous judge against thee ; for in those thy doings , and all of that kind against the manifest and manifold appearances of christ in his people of every degree , thou hast plainly declared thy self to be of rabshekaie's spirit , who raised against the living god and his dispised israel ; and of that spirit that jannes and jambres , who withstood moses in his work , under god , of calling israel out of egypt ; and as the lord pleaded the cause of his people in those dayes , so will he ( as he hath ) for ever plead our innocent cause against thee , and all his enemies ; for of a truth the lord god blessed for ever , hath raised us up to be his servants , sons and daughters , to bear his name in righteousness before the children of men , in a pure holy witness against all the false ways , and worships , of false man ( so be it ) and so it will be as hard for thee , and all , to kick against the pricks , as it was in persecuting saul , acts 9. read and consider , lest the day pass over you , as it did from the unbelieving jewes , who would not receive god come and manifest in flesh in those days , to whom christ said , ye will not come to me , that ye might have life ; but they would seek it in the killing letter , and as it were by the works of the law , until midnight darkness , and utter desolation came upon them . for , oh how the earth is filled with violence , because of such doctrines and teachings as this baxter and such men brings forth ; for behold how the field of his followers and admirers are all over-grown with briers and thorns , and noysom weeds , as the proper fruit of their accursed doctrines , as this baxter himself sets down , in his 48th direction , pag. 236. of his book , in these words , that is to say : oh friends , how bad are we our selves ? what pride is in our hearts ? what ignorance in our minds ! so wanting are we even in the lowest grace humility , that we have scarce enough to make us take patiently , as now we are giving out upon others ; so selfish , as dishonoureth our profession , with the brand of contradictedness , and partiallity ; so weak , that our duties are lyable to greater censures then we can bear ; and our inward graces weaker then our outward duties [ this must needs be so in the duties of the graceless minister thou pleads for ] of such ungoverned thoughts , that confusion and tumult instead of order and fruitfull improvement , are the daily temper and imployment of our immaginations [ this must needs be so in you that live in such opposition to the life of god manifest in his children at this day ] so passionate , impatient and corrupt , that we are a trouble to our selves and others , [ this must needs proceed from such a corrupt fountain ] and a dishonour to the gospel [ it is so ] and a hinderance to the conversion of those whom our holy examplary lives should win to god : so strange to heaven , as if we had never well believed it [ that is so , and therefore the sheep of christ deny your voyce , you who are such strangers to him ] and to say all in one , so empty of love to our dear redeemer , and to the god of love , that our hearts lie vacant to entertain the love of worldly vanities [ ye hypocrites , what have you to do to name christ , who are thus unbelieving and unredeemed ] and to fly back from the serious thoughts of god , which should be our daily work and pleasure , and fly from the face of death , as if we should be the worst , when neerest to our god. oh hypocrites , how can you for shame call god yours , when you are thus beyond measure bad , when scripture saith , he that saith he knows god , and keeps not his commandments is a lyar , and the truth is not in him , see 1 joh. 2.4 . and repent lest ye all perish together , priests and people ; for the lord is arisen to judgment , and none can stand before him , which hath unclean and filthy garments , as you are covered with , whom baxter here puts on to be teachers of others , and yet remain your selves with him under such woful sins and condemnation , as is here spoken of : but surely if you did believe , and feel inwardly that it were so bad with you , as here in words is signified , you could not go away so lightly with your burdens , as you seem to do , but it would stop your mouthes , and cause all your pride and glory to cease . for consider but the first thing , that this baxter would have you his principal and best taught hearers to confess , to wit. that pride is in your very hearts ; which if you were sensible of , you would cease calling god your father , and christ your redeemer in this wretched state ; for to you in this state , it may be truely said , as christ said to those unbelieving jews , ye are of your father the devil ; for pride of heart , is the chief part of his wicked image : and indeed , the main thing in this day , which hinders you from coming to christ ( the meek , pure , and lowly lamb of god ) is the pride of your corrupt hearts , as jeremiah said to the jews , if you will not give glory to god , before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains , my soul shall mourn in secret for your pride : it was the pride of their hearts , that was the ground of all their evils , as it is of yours ; for from the pride of your hearts , comes your ignorance of mind , and partiallity , and want of all good , to the dishonouring of your profession , and what not ? so that it may easily be known , who sent this baxter , who hath profited you nothing at all : for they have ran , and i have not sent them , saith god , therefore they cannot profit the people at all , jer. 23. and that this r. b. might make it fully appear under whose banner he fights , and for whose kingdom he pleads , lest the rest of his book should leave it doubtful : he is now come forth in his proper shape , as the absolute enemy of god , and all good men , that in any measure are looking heaven-ward , being burdened with the fellowship of the wicked , and instead of helping the lord 's little ones , against the great power of the dragon in the persecutors , he hath hammered forth all the wicked weapons that he can for the wicked persecutors , and against the tender hearted ones of god , who are travelling to the holy land , with egypt left behind ; as in that 55. direction so called , and pag. 254. of his said book appears , where he hath these words . little do many real separates , who cry out against the spirit of persecution , suspect that the same spirit is in them ; whence is persecution , but from thinking ill of others , and abhorring them , or not loving them ? and do you not so by those ( saith he ) whom you causlesly separate from ? answ. here by way of answer , before i set down any more of this naughtiness of his , i cannot but take notice of this word ) causlesly ) which here this baxter puts in , to cover his deceit ; for though at the first look one might judge , he intended only causless , or unwarrantable , or wicked separation ; yet reader thou must know , he intends as well the truely tender hearted people of england , who in conscience to god , and according to his holy commandment are come out , and separated from the fellowship of the wicked in these dayes , and so cannot take part in the offerings of the dead as well as others ; and at these in a special manner he strikes , after his accustomed manner , through the sides of others ; for his main envy is against the living members of christ : and so though those that separate without cause , may have the like mind to those they separate from , being different onely in form , but not in heart from them ; yet such as are separated by the power of god ( as paul was , whom god separated from his mothers womb , calling him by his grace ) have not ; for these stand out of their own thoughts and are in the will and work , and worship of god , whose worship is in spirit and truth : but to proceed , baxter saith further . you will say , that though you think them not to be true christians yet , you love them as men , and wish their good , and so will those say by you ( saith he ) whom you call your persecutors ; though they think you to be proud and humerous ; and disobedient , yet they say , they love you as men ; and do but correct you , to cure your self-willedness and humor , and to do you good , and to preserve the publick peace : they think you to be bad , and therefore imprison you : you think them to be bad , and therefore avoid communion with them . to this i cannot but by the way speak a word ; who is there that sees not the very spirit of the egyptian sorcerers acting in this very thing , to the hardening of pharoah's heart , lest he should let israel go ? but this baxter goes on in his wickedness , and saith , they ( to wit the persecutors ) think you so bad , as to be unworthy of civil liberty and priviledges : you think them so bad as to be unworthy of church priviledges and liberties : they think you unworthy to be suffered in the land perhaps ; and you think them unworthy to be suffered in the churches ; they cry against you , away with them , they are schismatical , or heretical ; you cry against them , away with them , they are prophane . answ. now in answer to this i say , that we who are of the world , scornfully called quakers , have everlasting cause to praise the lord , who hath redeemed our souls from among such devouring wolves , as this r. b. and from such a venomous spirit as he is acted by ; what heathen upon earth could strengthen the hands of the persecutors against the righteous more then this baxter , by such arguments as this doth ? what if this baxter had lived in the dayes of the apostles , and first christians , when god separated them from the congregation of the unbelieving jews ; surely he could not but have been but accounted famous , and worthy of great honour amongst those persecuting jews , for such arguments as these ▪ for never an argument he brings , for the persecutors now ; but it would as much have fitted the persecutors then against the christians ; yea , and it would formerly , yea , and doth at this day fit the papists against the protestants , as well as the persecuting prophane superstitious protestant against them , whom god hath drawn by his mighty power this day from amongst them . for seeing he sets but thought , against thought , the persecutors thoughts of the righteous , against the persecuted man's thoughts of him ; and seeing all thoughts are questionable , he leaves this ground for the persecuting jew , to reason to excuse himself against the first christians , according to his hellish invention on this wise , viz. ' you christians who separate from us , are of as bad a spirit as us jews , whom you call your persecutors ; for what is persecution , but a thinking ill of others , and abhorring them , or not loving them ? and do you not so by us , whom you causlesly separate from ? and though you say , though you think us not as servants of god , or so , yet you love us as men , and wish our good , so do we you , and that which we do against you , which you call persecution , is but a correcting of you , to cure your self-willedness and humor , and to do you good , and to preserve the publick peace : and though you think much , you christians , that we imprison you , deny you civil liberties and privileges , and count you unworthy to be suffered in the land ; yet all this by baxter's doctrine , is far less then you do to us jews ; for you think us so bad , that you avoid communion with us , and deny us church liberty and privileges ; yea and think us unworthy to be suffered in the churches . come baxter ; would this have been good and true reasoning by the jews against the christians , or by the papists against the protestants ? then if it would not ( as no sober man can say it would ) then forever stop thy mouth , and let shame cover thy face for ever speaking any more of things pertaining to christian , or christ's religion ; for an enemy to christ and his people thou art here manifest to be : and lest thou shouldst want any thing to make thee compleat in wickedness , thou goest on , and in answer to an objection , which is to this purpose : that the persecutors separated from , are bad , and prophane , and he that separates , saith he , charges them truely ; but he is not schismatical , or heretical , but they accuse him falsly . to this i say , this baxter with a whores fore-head , on the behalf of the persecutors , answers and saith : you ( to wit , you that separate ) say so , and they ( to wit , the persecutors ) say the same of you : they say you are schismatical ; but they are not prophane : now how shall a stander by know , [ saith baxter ] which of you are in the right , doubtess by the witnesses and evidences , [ saith he ] they try you in some court , or before some magistrate , before they punish you , [ saith he ] you never try them , nor hear then speak for themselves ; nor examine any witness publickly against them ; nor allow them any church justice ; but avoid their communion upon reports , or pretence of private knowledge : they judge you personally , one by one : you condemn whole parishes in the lump unheard : they condemn you , as for a positive crime ; but you condemn them , without charging any one crime upon them , &c. to which i answer for the lord and his truth , in this day of israel's trouble and tryals , and say . the lord rebuke thee , thou lying spirit , in this r. baxter ; was there ever heard such notorious falshoods and abominations come from one professing the gospel , yea , professing himself to be a minister of the gospel , yea , and taking upon him to be a teacher of the teachers , as is here from this r. b. oh , the envy , oh , the malice , the deep rooted iniquity of this man , against them that depart from iniquity in these islands , and cannot joyn with the people of this wicked world , in their bloody offerings : oh , the patience and long suffering of god towards such , though they continue long in their wickedness ; but the lord will certainly plead with thee , o baxter , and all his adversaries , for your great envy to his people , and work in these dayes : but come let us see again , if these lyes of baxter's , would not have suted as well for the persecuting jews against the first christians , or the persecuting papists , against the protestants , as it doth for the persecutors in these dayes against those , that in obedience to god are separated from them ? for what it tertullus , or any jewish lying orator had stood up in behalf of the jews against the christians , and said , the jews try you in some court , or before some magistrate , before they punish you ; but you christians never try them , nor hear them speak for themselves , nor examine any witnesses publickly against them , nor allow them any church justice , but avoid their communion upon report , or pretence of private knowledge , and so condemn them by the lump ; yea , a whole nation together ? &c. and so if the papist against the protestants had used the like reasoning , would it have been any thing but gross untruth and falshood in either of their mouthes ? or were either the first christians , or first protestants , any more to be blamed for their separation , because of such lyars ? nay , nay , neither are the people of god in these dayes any worss to be thought of for separating from the wicked , notwithstanding all these gross lyes of baxter , or any of his spirit : i say they are most gross lyes , if they be said of us the people of god , whom the world in scorn calls quakers , that we have not tryed them , &c. for we have tryed them , and heard them often what they can say for themselves , and we have by the spirit of the lord found them wanting of the life and power of godliness , like the heathen , who profess not christ , and publick witnesses there are of it , not onely their own works which are daily manifest in the face of the sun , but also their own words and confessions when they meet to worship ; for they say , they have left undone what god commands , and done what he forbids , and so have no spiritual health in them ; which signifies plainly , they have denied christ come in the flesh ; for whosoever receives him , receives god's saving health , and are saved people , spiritually healthful ; they have condemned themselves by their unbelief and evil deeds from the common-wealth and inheritance of israel : and so not onely the spirit of the lord in us , but even the witness of god in their own consciences charges not onely one , but even many great and greivous crimes upon them . and so baxter with all his lyes , and evil inventions , is for the lake ; and if ever he be saved , it must be through fiery terrible judgment , which will consume the adversary : for , oh! how hath satan blinded his eye ; that he should thus rise up against the people and work of god in these dayes to his hurt ? and when it is objected that of all men living , no man think that a persecutor is godly , and fit for church communion , he doth not like a christian confess to the truth there 〈◊〉 but after his accustomed manner , heathen-like , he invents his sorry shifts to avoid the force of the truth , by saying , did all the ministers and common people persecute you ? and then asking a question concerning the doings of the souldiers under oliver , and the like , which are meer shifts ; for what is the doings of any men , to make void the truth by it ? for whatsoever any in their ignorance of the truth , have done against the truth , serves nothing to the making void of this , to wit , that a persecutor of the godly , is not godly , nor fit for church communion ; but instead of giving glory to god , by confessing to truth , this baxter , after he hath wearied himself with his words , of what was done in oliver's time , or so ; he sums up his devilish doctrine of pleading for the persecutors , and against those whom god hath separated from them , ( saying to the same wicked purpose as before ) it is but one and the same sin in persecutors and the separates , which causeth the one to smite their brethren , and the other to excommunicate them ; the one to cast them into prison as schismaticks , and the other to cast them out of the church as prophane , &c. and so for this thy suming up and concluding , god hath concluded thee with the wicked persecutors , for the judgement of his great day o baxter : but hold baxter , thou that art thus hot , and without all fear in pleading for the devil's kingdom : i say when the lord bids us , and we obey him in separating from the wicked ; is this all one with the sin of persecution : oh thou unjust man , the lord will be terrible to thee in the day of his wrath , which is nigh at hand to come upon thee , for all thy villany against him , and for all thy daubing deceitful words , in the beginning and end of this direction ; the lord sees thee to be a fighter against him , and thy reward will be according to thy works , as he hath said , and all the rocks and mountains of the wicked world , for whom thou pleadest , shall not hide thee from his strook : as testifies the good spirit of the lord jesus , in his servant . some more of the bad , and strange sayings of this baxter in his book . pag. 219. godly men are much liker to be in the right , then ungodly men . answ. this shows what a stranger he is to the certainty of godliness . pag. 220. sometimes the worser sort of men , may hold fast the truth . answ. this is a gross lye ; for the bad cannot hold fast the good , unless in prison , or so . if any better persons deny infant baptism , the worser sort of people would be all against them , and yet be in the right . answ. thus sprinkling of infants , for which there is no scripture , must needs be wrong whosoever hold it ; and the corruption of it appears so much the more , because the worser sort are so much for it . many do take a form of prayer , or liturgy , to be unlawful , meerly because the most of the worser sort are for it . answ. what deceit is this ? if thy hearers so badly taught by thee do such things ; yet those that are taught of god , deny things , because they know them to be evil in themselves ; but what form , or liturgy is that , which the most of the worser sort of the people are for , even that which speaks peace to the wicked , by telling them they were regenerated by sprinkling a little water on their faces , or the like , when infants ? and that they shall be saved , though they continue in sin all their lives long : but the hour cometh , and now is , that neither in the invented forms of the hypocrite's long prayers , nor in the short invented forms and liturgies of the prophane , but in spirit and truth , as the lord jesus enables them , will god be worshipped , and served by his people ; for the day is dawned , and shaddows 〈◊〉 ; and as the day doth more and more arise in its glory , with all the things of vain men pass away , so be it . pag. 221. the some of his 44. direction by his own setting down runs thus . ye take the examples of religious men , to be one of your most perilous temptations ; and therefore labour to discover , especially what are the sins of professors , in the age that you live in , that you may especially watch and fortifie your souls against them : [ and adds ] that sometimes the strictest sort run in a gang after one opinion , and sometimes after another . answ. here i appeal to that of god in all that fear his name , and are alive to truth , whether this do not wholly tend to the hardening of pharaoh's heart , against the people of god in these dayes , who are in the truth it self , and not in opinions , as the hypocrites are ? for though such as are begotten into forms of ( religion without the truth ) by the hirelings , do never cease from erring , yet the truely religious , who are begotten to god by christ , walk in the way undefiled , which the fools , who are upright in heart cannot err in . but this his telling of running in a gang , is a filthy and reproachful speech , wholly of ashdod , and the lord will judge thee , o enemy , for thy work r. b. and therefore let all that fear god , take heed of this baxter's soul-defiling , and heart-hardning doctrine ; for out of the dark , and wicked kingdom , wherein he and all such live , is the lord calling his people . and to conclude , if any would see this harlot in its fine dress , and the crooked serpent in its glittering colour on the head which must be bruised , and yet with his sting in his tail , which is full of venom , let them consider that 44. direction , which runs thus . desire the highest degree of holiness , and to be free from the corruptions of the times , but affect not to be odd , and singular from ordinary christians in lawful things ; for instance , if it were to go in a meaner garb then others , and as the quakers , not to put off the hat ; or with the friars , to go bare foot , or in a distinguishing habit , that all men may see , and say ; this is a singular person in religion : it is easie to see how this gratifieth pride . answ. but now that the lord is arisen according to his promise , isa. 27.1 . which saith , in that day the lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the peircing serpent , even leviathan that crooked serpent , and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. therefore i say it is that the dragon is so wrathful to pour forth his floods of persecution after the heavenly woman , and her man-child : and therefore it is that the crooked serpent in such men ( as this baxter is ) is so at work , every way seeking with their cunning and crafty deceitful doctrines to peirce the heart , the life of truth , by their darts ; and so with their fair colourable words , as the apostle speaks , to deceive the hearts of the simple and ignorant people , but the lord taketh , the wily in their own craftiness , and the pit they digg for others , themselves fall into , and the lord 's spiritual sword of truth pierces through all their lives ; and dead in the great sea and puddle of their own iniquities before the lord , and his saints , this day they lie : glory to his name the mighty god over all who is worthy . for what more glistering and fair seeming words can the serpent give , then to say : desire the highest degree of holiness , and to be free from the corruptions of the time : but that this baxter intends no such thing , no nor believes that any shall ever attain to any such thing , whilst on the earth , is most manifest by the whole current of his doctrine ; for not onely in his former books , where he hath publickly declared , that sinless perfecttion , is the doctrine of the devil , hatch'd in hell , &c. but even in this very book , it fully appears what an enemy he is , not onely to the highest degree , but even to holiness it self , where amongst his other unholy doctrines he saith , as is before mentioned , from pag. 195. that there is no man alive , that worshippeth god without some sin , ( and adds ) do you ever pray your selves in secret , or in your families without sin : and a better state then this he doth not believe , that any shall here come unto ; and for being free from the corruption of the times ; what hast thou to do o baxter to talk of this , who art one with the corruptedst of times , pleading for conformity , even with the persecutors of godliness it self ? yea , seeking by all meanes to make such , as good and excusable before the lord in their persecutions of the godly , as the godly themselves are ● who in obedience to god , do separate from them : what is praying to god with sin in your hearts , the highest degree of your godliness ? oh hypocrites , yea it is ; and is your conforming to the worship-actions of the persecutors , who take god's name in vain , when ever they mention it in that state , no corruption ? and not onely so , but your oneness with the times in many of their corrupt customs of daily conversation , as every eye sees , no corruptions ? but above all , corruption is gone forth over all the land , even from the teachers , such as this baxter is , who in words can tell others of forsaking it ; for what greater corruption , then for the priests to love to be called of men masters , and to preach for hire , and divine for money , and to cry peace , peace to the wicked ; especially such as put into their mouthes : but if any put not into their mouthes , then they prepare war against them , as both in oliver's time and since they have done all england over , to the impoverishing and spoiling them that fear god of their goods , and imprisoning several to death upon the same account , what would christ ( mat. 23. ) and the prophets , jeremiah , and isaiah , and micah , and the rest , have cryed so vehemently against such things , if they had not been grievous corruptions of the times ? see jer. 5.30 , 31. isa. 56. micah 3.5 . &c. and so when the priests are proud , and covetous , and cruel ; what can their followers be , but like them ? it is not the priests telling people , they must desire after holiness , and forsake the corruptions of the times , that will do any good , so long as the teachers themselves live in unholiness and corruptions , and smite with the fist of wickedness ; for doth not that in the conscience say to such ? thou that teachest another ; why doest not thou teach thy self : but they have run , and god hath not sent them , therefore ( they are such bryars , and thistles , and ) cannot profit the people at all , jer. 23. and they say to every one that walkes after the imaginations of their evil hearts , ye shall have peace : but for these things , the lord hath , and yet will severely judge them , head and tail , root and branch , in his great day . and now to that which he saith to his disciples : be not odd and singular from ordinary christians in lawful things ; if it be to go in a meaner garb then others , or not to put off the hat , or to go bare foot , or in a distinguishing habit , or so ; this gratifieth pride . answ. to this i may say ; wo be to them that call evil good , and good evil , that account keeping on the hat in simplicity of heart to god , as we do our other garments without contempt to any , i say that account and call this evil , and yet account putting off the hat , in honour to proud flesh , good ; the apostle james saith , he that hath respect to persons commiteth sin , and is convinced of the law as a transgressor . jam. 2.9 . but baxter in this his pleading for the hat , saith [ it is lawful ] but to keep christ's commands , in having respect to christ , and not to the persons of men [ oddness and singularity ] and so , though this baxter , and his fellows , condemn us for this , yet christ justifies us , and so we have peace with god : and for going in a meaner garb then others ; whosoever he intend by this , we know that baxter , and all such proud masterly teachers , are far enough from this , for they are quite out in the other extream ; for if you will find pride and prodigality , who more notorious in the land then the priests and their families , who live in pride , idleness , fulness of bread , the sins of sodom ? and the poor people see it , though they are forced to labour and drudge for them , as the israelites in egypt : and so they spend their money , for that which is not bread , and their labours , for that which satisfies not their souls , as the prophet of old complain'd , and that which is most sad , they must do it by force ; for if the people do see them to be totally void of grace in their lives , yet according to baxter's doctrine , they must not take them for no ministers , how ever they must be at cost with them , to maintain them in their pride and idleness , or else look for a prison , or spoiling of their goods , and the like ; but the lord hath shaken his hand at such dishonest gain . but as for a distinguishing habit , which this baxter charges upon the friars ; how is it that he could not see himself , and his brethren , in their distinguishing habits of black gowns , black cloathes , tippets , hoods , surplices , and the like ? oh , these unjust men , who are all eye abroad , and none at home ; but this was ever the nature of such as were out of christ's doctrine . also whereas this baxter by these words [ that all may see , and say , this is a singular person in religion ] doth endeavour to make people believe , that , our not putting off our hats ( which we do meerly in obedience to god , who commands us not to honour proud flesh ) is done for a selfish end , and in our own wills , or so , to get a name , is such a piece of haughtiness and foolishness in him , that nothing but meer envy could have taught him such a piece of unreasonableness ; for who is there , that sees not the contrary effect to come of our not putting of our hat , to what baxter here sets down ? for it is so far from getting us a name of being religious amongst men , that they do as it were with one mouth cry out against us , unmannerly fellows , and the like , for it : and truely , but that the pure fear of god strengthens us , it were impossible for us to bear the reproaches , fineings , and beatings , and daily cross that attends this very same thing ; so that to cross proud flesh in this one thing , exposes the poor creature to great tryals in these degenerate dayes , even amongst them that profess christ ( who made himself of no reputation in this world ) from whom one might expect better usage , for so harmless a thing : but as christ and his apostles , and disciples found , no better usage amongst the professing jews of those dayes , for doing the will of god : so we are even made content to undergo all things for the truth 's sake from our own country men and professors in these dayes , even from all who profess the letter , and want the life and vertue of what they do profess : and praised be god for ever , who through his grace gives our souls the victory ; but as for this baxter and his followers , who are so full of that earthly faln wisdom , which receives honour of men , and judges of things according to the flesh ; i say , for them to seek god's honour , and glorifie him in such low contemptible things , as this is , is at present far from them ; but to put off the hat in honour to proud flesh , and to love greetings in the markets , and to go in long robes , as the old pharisees did , and to be called of men master , and the like , which gets praise and applause of the world , though christ forbid it never so much , i say these things they like better , the more is the pitty ; see mat. 23. and so it appears who are in the selfishness , pride and hypocrisie , and who are not , and so is the scripture fulfilled which saith , in that day it shall be seen , who are they that fear god , and who not ; glory to god for his unspeakable gift , and not unto us , but to thy name be the praise o lord. what would this baxter ( if he had been in those dayes ) have said of christ , of whom it was said , that he taught the way of god truely , and regarded not the persons of men , ( then surely he put not off his hat in honour to proud flesh , as ye do ) i say , would not this baxter have called him some odd conceited singular proud fellow , as his predecessors the pharisees of those dayes ( who received honour one of another ) did ? no question but he would ; for if he do thus to us his servants , what would he have done to him our lord and master ? but happy are all they in this day , who chuse rather to suffer the affliction and reproach with christ and his people , then to enjoy the pleasures of sin , which are but for a season ; so be it . also because this r. baxter in pag. 27. of his preface saith , that people are far more averse ( that is contrary or against ) to communion or concord with the parish churches , then the conforming ministers are ; and yet he seems in his epistle to bryan's book , to be unwilling that people should think he hath conformed , though he hath pleaded for it , and against separaing from the parish assemblies and worships , as now manag'd , and also seeing that bryan , as he saith , is , or was silenced for non-conformity himself : i desire all that reads these lines , to take notice of what a strange uneven and unrighteous spirit these men are of in their creeping , and twisting , and twining to and fro ; yet the eye of the lord , and his blessed spirit in his children this day doth easily spy them out : sometimes they are all for conformity , and against separation by any means , and plead the common-prayer-peoples cause with all their might , as it were ; and yet presently they are all on a fire against any that shall think they are conformists : nay , says baxter , how can any judge him to be a conformists , who is silenced for nonconformity ? but if this baxter ( sometime a head to those called presbyterians at and about kidderminster ) and bryan of the same nature , sometimes a teacher at coventry , be not conformed , or be not yet conformists , as well as others of their brethren , who have long since licked up their vomit , the old common-prayer service , which they vomited up in oliver's time , because it hindred them then from swallowing the peoples labours ; and seeing they plead so shamelesly for it , and also seeing this baxter , in express words confesseth , that they are not so much against conformity with the common-prayer service , as the people are ; what may be the reason of this strange thing , to wit ; that they do not in all things conform ; to wit , in deed and practice , as well as in words , save only , as is plain to me , this ; to wit , because they judge that their admirers are not yet sufficiently wearied out with keeping off , nor sufficiently moulded and fitted in their minds for coming in ; and therefore they have lingred , and may do yet linger a while longer before they do openly , and before all appear conformists , desiring if possible to see the people in before them ; for these two chief presbyterian priests , so called , are wholly already in the parish stuff , in their judgement , and with their minds and hearts already , or at lest would be thought so to be by the wicked world , of whom they are lovers : yet they see not how to vend their flattering doctrines , if their admirers conform not , and come not in with them , or rather be not in the pit before them ; so weak and wretched a thing is man , yea , the best seeming of the sons of men , out of the truth ; oh , how truely fulfilled by these men , are those words of the apostle , where he speaking of the false hypocritical out-side-teachers of that time , saith , with good words , and fair speeches , they deceive the hearts of the simple ? therefore ever praised be christ , who hath opened our eyes to see , and perswaded our hearts , to avoid such wolves in sheeps-clothing , as this baxter , and bryan are ; for , what finer , and higher talk , or skin , or clothing can the wolf get , then to make sermons of dwelling with god , and the like , as this bryan doth ? when it s manifest , he neither knows god , nor his way , nor his dwelling-place ; but is inwardly ravened , from that good and blessed spirit of truth and honesty which should commend him to god. the wolves nature in r. baxter is already in this writing set down and manifest ; and now i come in the light of the lord , to make manifest some of his brother bryan's . and first shall set down that blasphemous passage of his , in p. 291. and 292. of his sixth sermon , in that book of his intituled dwelling with god , &c. where he saith , i am not ignorant , that many of you , whose habitation , i question not but the lord is ; who have your habitation in several countries of this kingdom , have drunk a deep prejudice , against all the parochial congregations ; whereof you are legal members , and where all you were baptized , and thereby were made the members of christ , the children of god , and heirs of his kingdom : i fear some of you will startle at these expressions , found in the common-prayer : but if you consult the holy scriptures , you will find them warranted in a sacramental sence ; and your prejudice hath so far wrought upon you , that you have forsaken the assembling of your selves together with your neigbours , in the publick meeting-places ; thus far this bryan . answer , but ever praised be the lord , who hath delivered us from the mouthes of such manifest wolves , as these are , who in times past were hidden , but are now fully seen , ( who , though his brother baxter sayes , his mouth was stopt , or silenced for not conforming , yet here it seems it is wide open still , according to his and their custom , to manifest his folly and wicked-inside against the truth ; and for deceit ) that the simple-hearted might forever be warned , from following such any more ; for who would have thought , that ever ( him called ) doctor bryan of coventry , and richard ( called mr. ) baxter of kidderminster , who were so promoted in oliver's time , for conformity to oliver's laws , and religion , in opposition to the prelates , and their common-prayers , should now with a little blast of mens breath , be silenced ( as baxter's epistle to his book saith ) for a time , and so shattered , and confounded with the fall ; that when they awaked , and got a litle breath , that they should for fear of men , be so transformed into other shapes , as not to be ashamed , to get into their mouthes blasphemous words [ of making people members of christ , children of god , and heirs of his kingdom ] by having a little water sprinkled on their faces by a manmade-priest ; when they were infants , and understood nothing ; then which passage , there is not any passage in the liturgy , or common-service-book , nay , nor in any book in the world whatsoever , more contrary to the scriptures of truth , as all sober minded people well understand ; yea , and this bryan himself knows in his own conscience , that they are not sound words , though he most notoriously , and falsely say , to please the present evil world [ with all that the holy scriptures warrant them in a sacramental sence ] but i desire that all people , who fear the lord , would take heed of such dangerous heresies ; for the scriptures of truth , do not allow of falshood , in any sence at all , for its absolutely false in the sight of god , and to all good men , that infants by any such outward sprinkling , or doing ( as they call baptism ) are made the children of god , members of christ , heirs of his kingdom : seeing the scripture no where commands any such thing ; but saith , that except people be born from above , they cannot see the kingdom of god : but the day is dawned , that makes all things manifest , praises to god : and therefore people consider what a wretchedness those are under , who follow such blind guides , as turn and change with every time ; and can be any thing , or nothing in appearance , so that they can but keep up their name amongst men ? what was the common-prayers , and such things , so odious and damnable a thing in the eyes of these priests in oliver's time ? and is it now , yea the worst part of it , became such an idol in their eyes , as that those that dwell in god , must be condemned of deep prejudice for not conformity to it ; what will not that spirit that climbs over the door , and never was sent of god to preach the gospel say , or unsay , so as it can but please the present times ? but oh thou , blasphemous bryan , the accuser of the brethren ; can those that dwell with god deny to conform to that worship or service which is of god : and therefore it is safely and truely concluded , that the parish-service thou pleads for , is not of god , because for conscience to god , with whom they dwell , they cannot conform to it : but , oh how the serpent creeps upon his belly to do mischief , by seeking to perswade the consciencious people , that by their not joyning with the parish worships , and assemblies , they open their mouthes wide to cast a scandal upon their persons , as prophane , and upon the strict profession of walking precisely according to the written word , which they think ( sayes this bryan , in that pag. 292. of his book ) gives you no warrant for your separation , &c. and then down upon his belly he goes , saying , my humble and earnest request to you is , to lay aside your prejudice , and examine by the good word , whether your separation be not sinful ? answ. to which i answer in the word of the lord ; blessed for ever , that we , who for the work and word of the lord in our hearts and mouthes , are by the sinful parishes of england , and elsewhere , disdained , and scornfully called quakers , are not separated from them because of any prejudice , or the like , against them ; but god who by his everlasting light of truth hath shewed us the evil of their doings , and of our own , when we worshipped we knew not what amongst them ; he , i say , hath separated us from them , and joyned us to himself in christ jesus , where , with him our dwelling is indeed , ( though bryan think not so ) praised be the name of our most holy lord god for evermore : and so we are not yet to examine , whether our separation be sinful , or nay ; for that is done , and we do know it to be good , according to the good word from the beginning , most certainly : and so the offence which the parish-worshippers take , is offence without all cause on our parts given ; and so it is no other , then the unbelievers took in all generations , against them that feared god ; as the jews were offended at christ and his apostles , yea , and all christians in those dayes , because they could not worship with their neigbours in their superstitions , as this bryan would have us ; and not onely so , but they killed christ , and his apostles , and grievously persecuted the christians for their separation then , as they do us at this day ; and so the reproach of christ , is to us great riches , and the persecutors god will examine , and judge : and as moses did chuse rather to suffer affliction with the people of god , then to enjoy egypt's glory for a season , so blessed are all , that with us are perswaded in their hearts , to follow the lamb wheresoever he goes , not heeding what the wicked say , or judge of them ; but as the apostle exhorts , looking at jesus the author , and finisher of our faith , who for the joy that was set before him , endured the cross , and despised the shame ; and so through all the tryals and persecutions of this world , enter into god's glory , where none can come to make afraid . but if there be any , who through prejudice ( as this bryan speaks ) and not by the spirit of the lord , are separated from the parish-worship ; it is necessary for such , to see to themselves , and consider , lest their return be as shameful , as their separation was sinful , ( like this bryan and baxter ) who it seems all this while , have been no real and true separatists to god ; but have been onely in the self-separation according to the will and force of times : for though the poor deceived followers of such men be at present more averse from joyning with the superstitions of the times , then your hearers are ( as baxter sayes ) yet if you grow not out of their rotten root , into the root christ jesus , you will be weary , and faint in your way , before the end : but let all know , that these self-separatists , who have not their birth of god , are no real dwellers with god , though this bryan its like had an eye especially to such in his words , and to whom its like in a special manner he applies his fawning flattering words and desires ; but what 's the reason , may we say again , that these non-conforming ministers by baxter's report , are not so much against the parish-way of worship , as now managed , as their hearers are , save onely their gross hypocrisie , and self-seeking nature , and double mind , as was hinted before ? for they have carried the people in hand , that they would suffer ; yea , what would they not suffer , rather then conform ; and now behold how this teacher of teachers ( baxter ) hath bewrayed their nakedness : o people , people , who have been long deceived by such double-minded-ones ( who are unstable in all their wayes ) that you would turn your minds from them , to the true light of jesus christ in your conscience , that with it you might first see your selves , and so growing up in that true light , you might come to see jesus christ , who never fell , nor never changeth , to be your teacher and minister ; and so come from off the barren mountains , whether these , & the like , deceitful men ( baxter and bryan ) have led you , and left you ; for now is the lord making unto all people a feast of fat things , of wine on the lees well refined , ever praised be his name for it . and now , if after all the light that the lord hath set up in this day , you will not be warned , to come into the liberty of the sons of god , and so accept of god's freedom in his son freely tendered you ; what remaines ? but if you be fastned more in the pit of darkness with all unbelievers , it is just . but whereas this baxter tells of his brother bryan's silencing formerly for not conforming , it had been well for him , that he had been silent still , rather then have opened his mouth thus to the dishonour of god , and strengthning deceit in the deceitful , and so to the everlasting shame and confusion of his own face ; and all his raking up something here and there , as he could get hold of it in his dark imaginations , for parish conformity , it is so nothing to the purpose , and so well seen to be so , by all that are not wilfully blind , that it serves onely to discover his own nakedness , and rotten inside , as not onely by what hath been already said , but by what also now follows doth further appear , as in page 295. is set down , where he saith : it is no sufficient warrant to separate from a church , because it is guilty of such sins and corruptions as deserves god should forsake , & for which he hath threatned in his word , that he will forsake it ( here by the way take notice , that this bryan here considered not , that he fully makes manifest the hypocrisie of his brother baxter , who talks of his hearers forsaking the corruptions of the times , and yet is one with this bryan in perswading them to joyn with such a body , as is so corrupt , that deserves that god should , yea , and hath threatned that he will forsake them ) but to go on , bryan saith , yet people should not forsake that bad company , till it appear that god hath put in execution , that which he justly threatned , we ought to acknowledge it , and receive it as his house , and not refuse to dwell with him in it ; for shall man be holier then god ? and hate corruption more then he ? and we may not communicate with it , by consenting to any corruptions that are or shall be detected , or proved to be in it . answ. to which strange doctrine of this bryan , to which baxter in his epistle says , amen ; i say , in the first place , it is absolute blasphemy against the holy name and nature of god , either to say , or imagine , that god dwells with such a people as are guilty of such sins and corruptions , as this bryan here speaks of ; and how far unlike this bryan's spirit is to the spirit of the prophets , who said , god is of purer eyes , then to behold iniquity ; and your sins have separated betwixt you and your god : and the apostle saith expresly , that those that would have god to dwell in them ( and it s certain god dwells with none , but as he dwells in them ) they must be separated , and touch no unclean them 2 cor. 6.16 , 17 , 18. and doth the lord command us , to come out from amongst the unclean ? and will he himself , the holy one of israel dwell with the unclean , yea with such as are guilty of such sins and corruptions as deserve , that god should forsake them for them ; yea for which god hath threatned in his word , that he will forsake them ? and certainly there can be no way , nor meanes to stay or hinder the execution of god's judgments threatned and deserved , but by forsaking those sins , and corruptions , which such people are guilty of , which the people of england ( that this bryan ) would have us , and others to joyn with , are far from ; for , o england , england , thou and thy parishes are they that will not come to christ , that they might have life ; but persecutes them ( with all unreasonableness , and cruel usages ) that the lord hath raised up , to forewarn thee of his judgments : and so thy house being left desolate of god , and goodness , we are not more holy then god , nor hate corruption more then he , in our separating from thee , as this wicked man bryan would have thee falsly believe ; but in our separating from thee , we do the lord's command , and follow his blessed example ; and so we cannot receive that for god's house , which he dwells not in : and so thou art a false witness , o bryan , and a blasphemer of god and his tabernacle , for the temple and tabernacle of god is holy ; which temple are his holy members and body the true church ; not babylon , the false , sinful and corrupted church , which baxter , and bryan pleads for : and if any defile the temple of god , saith the apostle , him will god ( not call his house , and dwelling place , but ) destroy , 1 cor. 3.17 . again , how shall this gross contradiction , which this twisting twinding serpent makes , be salved ? for this bryan one while sayes , it s to be holier then god , to separate from such a sinful corrupt sort , as deserves god's judgments : and yet with the same mouth saith , we may not communicate with them , by consenting to any corruptions that are , or shall be detected , or proved to be in such a people ; what joyn with a manifest corrupted body , whose very prayers ( by their own confession ) are not without sin , and not so much as consent to any of their corruptions ? what a joyning is this , when it must not be a joyning ; no , not so much as in the consent ; what gross dark contradiction is here ( and now to bring this a little home to the business of england ) a docter ( so called ) and pleader for conformity and communion with the parish-worshippers of england , which are detected , and manifestly proved ; yea , and not onely by their words , but by their own confession also , to be miserable offenders against god ; yea , so guilty , and full of sins and corruptions , from the crown of the head , to the soles of their feet , as that they have no health , nor soundness at all in them , would have us conform to them ; and yet he saith , we may not communicate with them , by consenting to any of their proved corruptions : then i say , if we may not have fellowship with them in their corruptions , no , not so much as by consent ; then we must not have fellowship with them at all , for they and their corruptions are one ; for saith christ , ye are of your father the devil , for his works ye will do : but saith bryan , christ was a member of this church ( as he calls it ) of those wicked jews ; because he was circumcised , and frequented the temple , and eat the passover , or so ; then which saying of this bryan , nothing can be more false and blasphemous ; for what , though christ was circumcised , and went sometimes into the temple , and eat the passover , or so , which had been ordinances of god for their time , and were shaddows of good things to come ; what is that to prove christ a member of that body , whose house was left unto them desolate , and who were headed by the devil , which at length put them on to murder him ? o sad , that ever people in their love of the world should be so blind ! but what is christ's conforming to the shaddows of the law , which god gave for that time , and by him to be fulfilled , and so ended , to your requiring us to conform to you in that , or those things which god never ordained ? as sprinkling of infants ; and not onely so , but teaching for doctrine , that you make them thereby the children of god , members of christ , and heirs of his kingdom ; and also your giving david's psalms in rhime and meeter , to the wicked world , to sing to god's dishonour : and to hear a proud man , and covetous man ( who is an idolator ) preach and pray , whom god never sent ; yea , and to maintain him in his sins , contrary to all reason and religion ; also how can we conform to you in your corruptions of respecting persons , and of having mens persons in admiration because of advantage ? contrary to the express doctrine of the apostle , which saith , jam. 2.1 . &c. have not the faith of our lord jesus christ the lord of glory , with respect of persons : yea , and plead for their transgressions ; yea , how can we conform to such , as under the name of christians , do live manifestly in the sins of the heathen ; as fornication , covetousness , idolatry , drunkeness , and are railers , and extortioners , and lovers of pleasures more then lovers of god : from whom the apostle bids us turn away ? 2 tim. 3. and 1 cor. 5.11 . &c. with whom he forbids us to eat ; and yet with such , both baxter and bryan , for all their former seeming hypocritical zeal , would now have us to communicate , yet not so much as consent to their corruptions , neither as their daubing contradicting doctrine seems willing to have : then i say , we must neither have fellowship with them in their worship-actions , ( as baxter calls them ) nor in their ordinary conversation , for all is corrupt ; for what greater assent or consent can we give , then by joyning with them , or practising such things openly : but its better to obey god then man , both in this , and all things , and as the lord said to jeremiah , so in this case hath he said to us : let them return to thee , but return not thou to them ; for what fellowship hath light with darkness , or the temple of god with idols ? and now i come a little to set before you poor people , who have been deceived by such men as this baxter and bryan are , something of the answer they give to the arguments of the zealous people of old ( called brownists , or so ) who could not for conscience sake conform to their common-prayer , &c. their objection saith bryan , in page 297. of his book was this , to wit. that the people of england were never rightly called ; for in the beginning of the queens ( to wit , elizabeths ) reign , they were by her command and proclamation compelled to embrace the protestant religion , and to conform to god's worship : whereas in the new testament we have no example of people compelled to the service of god : christ commanding fisher-men to convert souls by preaching , not princes to make disciples by compulsion ; therefore the church of christ ( england he should have said ; for who ever denyed the church of christ ) had no right constitution ? but now see the wretched answer of this bryan to the said objection of the old non-conformists . if we speak ( saith he ) of a church first planted ; the people of such a nation are first called by the word , before they come to be a church : but it is not so ( saith he ) of a country , where for a long time true religion hath been professed , which is our case : and as to that part of the objection ; that there is no such example in the new-testament . first , the magistrates were then enemies to the christian religion . secondly , ( saith he ) it sufficeth that we have examples in the old-testament , 2 kings 23.21.2 chron. 15.13 , and 33.16 . and 34.33 . nor have ( saith he ) christian princes less power in their dominion to abolish idolatry , and by laws and penalties , to compel their subjects where there is a parity of reason . and after this , bryan having wearied himself , with setting down several words , to and against , both what the conformists said for , and the non-conformists said against these things : he takes breath , and sayes , he returns to satisfie the objection , to wit , the objection before mentioned about separation , with such words as these . it is not necessary and generally true ( saith he ) of all the members of the visible church , that they be called by the word . answ. to which i answer on behalf of truth : that it is the great love , and tender mercy of god to our souls , that he hath delivered us from under such men , as this bryan and baxter are , who know nothing as they ought to know ; but professing themselves to be wise , are become most foolish and bruitish in their minds and words , by such false , and soul-destroying doctrines as these ; affirming , that people may be called into the visible church without the word ; and if one ask him , if not by the word ; by what then ? his answer is , by sprinkling , when infants , or for fear of man : but what , are these calls into the visible church ? a strange church must that needs be for certain , where people are called into it without god's word ; for certain it s none of god's church , into which people are called , without his word : it s the visible company of such as know not god , thou shouldst have said : for god's church are the faithful ; and their faith cometh by hearing , and hearing by the word of god , and not without it : but , oh the desolation that such doctrine as this of bryan and baxter hath made amongst the poor people , whose eyes are not fully opened to see their deceits . also this antichristian doctrine being laid as a foundation in their house , it is no wonder to hear this bryan say , pag. 301. that ignorant and prophane persons have alwayes been in the church , and ever will be , at lest , till christ comes the second time. but by all these unfound , unchristian and ignorant sayings , it fully appears , that this bryan is one of them , who have neither seen nor known christ ; seeing he would bring in the heathen into the temple without the word : and so , who is more ignorant and prophane , then this priest bryan himself , as also his brother baxter , who is not ashamed to make such a one a tutor , or father of ministers , who is ignorant of the very door and entrance into the church , and of christ's second coming ? nay who is ignorant of his first appearance , which was for judgment , even to whip the buyers and sellers , and all prophane ones out of his house , as he said himself , for judgment come i into this world : and so , what pastors or teachers can such tutor , as are so ignorant of christ's kingdom ; and so admit the ignorant and prophane into their church , ( or cage of unclean birds ) for the church of christ , which is visibly seen , and known by the spiritual eye to be his body , is holy , and ●nto it can no unclean thing enter , as saith scripture , revel . ●1 . 27 . but into the world●s-church may , both ignorant and prophane enter and dwell ; but at such dishonest gain , as is gotten by such doctrines as this of bryan and baxter , hath the lord long shaken his hand ; is this your ware that you sell to the people at so dear a rate ? is this your straw and stubble , that you feed them with ? but no man of any understanding in venly matters , will buy any more of your merchandize forever . for god is come to teach his people himself , and the spirit of god is felt and witnessed amongst us , praised be god ; yea , and in our very hearts to teach us , and by which we feel christ come again the second time without sin to salvation , according to his holy promises , and by whose all powerful word of faith and heavenly presence in us , are we joyned together unto him , in one holy body ; glory to his name over all , for he is worthy , so be it . and for that saying , that christian princes have not less power to abolish idolatry , and by law and penalties , to compel their subjects in matters of religion , where there is a parity of reason , then the jewish kings under that law had . i answer , and say , that all are not christians , who are so called ; and this crying up the worldly magistrates power in matters spiritual , is the onely in let into persecution of the tender hearted people of god , who cannot bow to every thing the world sets up ; yea , though it come under the name or shew of christian religion ; and if the image be of gold never so goodly , yet wanting life and power , they cannot bow to it . i say , they who preach up the wordly princes under what name soever , to have power over the consciences of people in matters purely spiritual ( as the whole body of christian religion is ) are antichristian , and the great enemies of that liberty which christ hath purchased for his people , and which the apostles sealed unto with their blood , saying in such cases , let every man be fully perswaded in his own heart : and who art thou that judges ( much less force● and compellest as bryan and baxter's doctrine would have it ) another ? to his own master ( 10 wit , god the judge of all ) he standeth or falleth , see rom. 14th . at large ; but what account will these daubers give to the lord for all the innocent blood they have caused to be shed these many hundred years ? is sad to consider : for though such magistrates as are evil inclined , are not free , yet the false teachers , who by their lyes stir up , yea , and bring forth that evil inclination into real actings against the good , shall receive the greater condemnation : and yet notwithstanding all the evil , both in the one and in the other , the lord will certainly carry on his great work to his own praise , which he hath begun , glory to his name for ever : and the beast , whore and false prophet , shall alive together be cast into the lake prepared for them , and into the pit which they had digged for others , so be it . also whereas he saith , that it sufficeth , that we have examples in the old testament for the magistrates power in church matters ; though none in the new testament , or so . i say , it is no more true , then if we should reason for an outward worldly temple , and sacrifices , and circumcision now , because there is examples of these things in the old testament ; and for revenge and retaliation now , because it is mentioned in the old , just contrary to christ ; for though it hath been said of old ( saith christ ) an eye for an eye , and a tooth for a tooth ; yet i say to you , my disciples , under the new covenant : if any man smite you on the one cheek , turn to him the other ; and the apostle saith , dearly beloved , avenge not your selves ; but if thy enemy hunger , feed him , &c. and so christ being come , and all power in heaven and earth given him ; is not he in these spiritual matters relating to the very soul and conscience , the onely lord , law-giver and king , and supream , and ought of right to rule in his own house and temple , which is in man , and those that will not that he should rule , must bow before him , and be ashamed before his face , as saith scripture , 2 thes. 2. so that now the son of god being come , and seated by right of inheritance , the true king and heir upon david's throne , to rule in righteousness forever in the hearts of his children , he commands the true seed of israel , to obey his heavenly voice , law and doctrine , spoken and written within , as those outward and typical kings did , command the fleshly seed of abraham to keep moses's law , written without : and as those that obeyed not that outward law of moses , were lyable to the punishment of that law ; so they n●w that obey not christ's spiritual law written in the heart and conscience by his holy power , are lyable to the eternal judgment of jesus christ , the judge of quick and dead , as he saith , the father judges no man , but hath committed all judgment to the son : and as for the worldly magistrate , he is to rule in outward things , betwixt man and man , to see that every one , as to the body and outward estate , be well beheaved one towards another , and not to bear the sword in vain , as hath been too much in use , even amongst them called christian-magistrates , as well as others ; from whence it hath come to pass , that for the sake of the poor , whom the worldly powers have oppressed , as well in temporals as spirituals , the lord hath overturned them , one sort after another , as they were found in the abuse of that power and trust , which was put into their hands , for the protection of , and encouragement and praise of the good , and punishment of the evil-doers ; but not the contrary ; according to that of the prophet . i will overturn , overturn , overturn , till he come , whose right it is : and so until truth , righteousness , goodness , equity and justice rule , both in the hearts and lives of the children of men , there will neither be peace , nor establishment of any thing ; but as a wheel will the whole earth be , from generation to generation , saith the spirit , who is the sweet orderer in all things , for the holy seed's sake : glory to his name forever . and so in the love and kindness of the lord god , have i been thus enabled for the truth , and the poor people's sake , to lay open something of the deceits , and gross hypocrisie of these two men , called baxter and bryan , who have long under a cover or vizard of holiness , deceived the unstable souls of many : but now the covering being rent off ; their wolfish nature is fully manifest ; glory to the lord , the good work-man over all forever , so be it . t. t. the end . an ansvver to a letter vvritten at oxford, and superscribed to dr. samuel turner, concerning the church, and the revenues thereof. wherein is shewed, how impossible it is for the king with a good conscience to yeeld to the change of church-government by bishops, or to the alienating the lands of the church. steward, richard, 1593?-1651. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a93888 of text r201455 in the english short title catalog (thomason e385_4). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 106 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 28 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a93888 wing s5516 thomason e385_4 estc r201455 99861961 99861961 114107 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a93888) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 114107) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 61:e385[4]) an ansvver to a letter vvritten at oxford, and superscribed to dr. samuel turner, concerning the church, and the revenues thereof. wherein is shewed, how impossible it is for the king with a good conscience to yeeld to the change of church-government by bishops, or to the alienating the lands of the church. steward, richard, 1593?-1651. j. t. turner, samuel, d.d. [2], 53, [1] p. s.n.], [london : printed in the yeere, m dc xlvii. [1647] attributed to richard steward by wing. a printing of and reply to: a letter written to d. samuel turner, concerning the church, and the revenues thereof. the letter is signed "j.t." on b1r. place of publication from wing. a reissue, with cancel title page, of the edition with "wherein the point of sacriledge, with some others now in controversie, is handled, and fully stated." in title. in this edition a2r line 11 begins: plus ultra,. annotation on thomason copy: "apr: 26". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng church of england -government -early works to 1800. church and state -england -early works to 1800. episcopacy -early works to 1800. church polity -early works to 1800. great britain -history -civil war, 1642-1649 -religious aspects -early works to 1800. a93888 r201455 (thomason e385_4). civilwar no an ansvver to a letter vvritten at oxford, and superscribed to dr. samuel turner, concerning the church, and the revenues thereof.: wherein steward, richard 1647 19505 24 30 0 0 0 0 28 c the rate of 28 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the c category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-04 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-04 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-09 john latta sampled and proofread 2008-09 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2009-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion an ansvver to a letter vvritten at oxford , and superscribed to dr. samvel tvrner , concerning the church , and the revenues thereof . wherein is shewed , how impossible it is for the king with a good conscience to yeeld to the change of church-government by bishops , or to the alienating the lands of the church . printed in the yeere , mdcxi . vii . faults escaped , correct thus . page 5. line 30. for lawes read lands . p. 7. l. 30. r. preserving . p. 9. l. 8. r. this in the postscript . p. 12. l. 20. r. visum . p. 17. l. 15. r. and elsewhere , part . p. 18. l. 27. for then r. that . p. 19. l. 11. for since , r. sure . p. 19. l. 15. r. aliquid . p. 20. l. 20. for this r. the . p. 21. l. ult. r. that error . ibid. l. ult. r. that consent . p. 24. l. 8. r. creet . ibid. l. 27. r. apostolicall . p. 31. l. 14. r. vindicta . p. 35. l. 26. dele not . p. 39. l. 1 r. must not . p. 44. l. 5. for there , r. other . p. 47. l. ult. r. preserve . p. 50. l. 3. r. the commons . p. 51. l. 22. for 〈◊〉 , r. are . p. 52. l. 19. dele that . a letter written to d. samuel turner , concerning the church , and the revenues thereof . noble doctor , i expected when you had seen the kings last messages , your reason would have prompted you to have look'd this way , which caused a delay in sending unto you , untill the difficulty of the passage made me suspect whether this may come safe to you , and by the preparations and designes here , i feare i shall not have another oportunity ; take this therefore as a farwell-truth , that the moderate party here , are at their ne plus ultra , the presbyterians & independants will agree , and the scots and we shall not fall out ; and it must now be the wisdome of your selfe , and such as have power and interest with the king , to save him , your selves , and country from ruine : your visible strength to hold out , ( much lesse to prevaile ) is too well known here , and your hopes from france and ireland , will soon vanish , which if successefull by a victorious army ( which i beleeve you shall never see ) would but make you and us slaves to a forraign nation , and extirpate that religion , both sides pretend to maintaine . to be plaine , i know no way left you , but to accept such conditions of peace as may be had ; you are too much a souldier , to thinke a retreate ( upon so many disadvantages ) dishonourable to a generall , or acceptance of hard conditions by a starved beleagured garrison to the governour . in short , of evils choose the least ; and i must tell you , it is expected from you , ( and the more wise and honest party with you ) that they should make use of their reason , and advise the king to save what is left , wherein it is believed you may prevaile ; considering what hath already passed in so many free offers to give satisfaction in the militia , ireland , paiment of the publique debts , choice of judges , lord admirall , officers of state , and others , with an act of oblivion and free pardon , free exercise of religion , to presbyterians , and independants their own way , and a promise to endeavour in all particulars , that none shall have cause to complaine for want of security : things so farre beyond our former hopes , that i cannot doubt , but the same reason which moved the offer of these , will obtaine to concession of such others , as the parliament shall require in order to peace , which ( as neere as i can guesse ) will be either the removall and punishment of evill counsellors , and ministers , who have drawn the king into these troubles , or the busines of the church , ( all other materiall things to my apprehension being already offered . ) for the first of these , i know not how you can with reason gain-say the bringing offenders to justice ; and if the parliament prerogative streine justice in the tryall and punishment ( beyond example of better times ) it were wisdome for such as may therein be concerned , to withdraw , dum furer in cursu , for if it must come to suffering , melius unus quam unitas : for the busines of the church i wish it could be prevented , ( there are who can witnesse the labour and hazards i have undergone for that end ) conceiving no government equall to a well ordered episcopall , for the well-being of this church and state : but when the necessity of times hath proposed this sad question for resolution , whether consent to alter episcopall government in the church , or let both church and state ruine together , my reason assents to the former . i beleeve the doctrine of the place where you are , would perswade the contrary , and it hath been from thence transmitted hither as an orthodox truth , that the altering that government , being as they say jure divino , is sinfull ; and the taking away the church-lands , sacriledge , at least unlawfull ; which if i could believe , would change my opinion , for i cannot give way for the committing a sin for a good end , ( what ever the romanist , or jesuited puritan pretend in defence of it ) but if i mistake not , ( and if i doe , i pray reforme me ) the opinion that the government by bishops is jure divino , hath but lately been countenanced in england , and that but by some few of the more lordly clergy ; for we alwayes acknowledge the protestants of germany , the low countryes , and elsewhere , part of the reformed protestant catholique church though they had no bishops ; and i am certaine the king would never have given way for the extirpation of bishops in scotland , had he conceived them to be jure divino ; nor to the presbyterians , and independants here to exercise their religion their own way , ( as by his late messages ) when such a tolleration in the face of such a divine law , must needs be sinfull : and for the latter opinion against taking away of church lands , i am lesse satisfyed , being so farre from conceiving it sacriledge , that i do not conceive it unlawfull , but may be done without breach of any law , ( which must be the rule for tryal of the lawfulnes or unlawfulnes of every action ) nay though there be never so many curses or imprecations added to the donation : nor do i herein ground my opinion barely upon the frequent practise of former times , not only by acts of parliament , ( in the times of queen eliz , and king james , and king charles , if you have not forgotten the exchange of durham house ) aswell as henry the eighth ) but even by the bishops themselves , and deanes and chapters , insomuch , that if the wisdome of the state ( after clergy men were permitted to marry ) had not prohibited their alienations , and restrained their leases to 21. yeares , or 3. lives , their revenues at this day would not have been subject to envy . but to deale clearely with you doctor , i do not yet understand how there can be any sacriledge , properly so called , which is not a theft and more : viz. a theft of something dedicated to holy use , ( a communion-cup for instance , or the like ) & theft you know must be of things moveable , even by the civil law , and how theft can be of lands , or sacriledge committed by aliening church-lands , i pray aske your friend holbourne and his fellow lawyers , for ours here deride us for the question . as for the main quere , touching the lawfulnes of aliening church-lands , ( i use the expression for the lands of bishops , deanes , and chapters , ) good doctor give me your patience to heare my reasons . and first i lay this as a foundation , that there is no divine command that ministers under the gospell should have any lands , ( the hire of a labourer at most , a fitting maintenance is all to be challenged ) nor do we read that the apostles had any lands , ( which i mention to avoid the groundlesse arguments upon the lands and portions allotted to the tribe of levi by gods appointment , to whom our ministers have no succession ) and then it will follow , that they enjoy their lands by the same law of the state as others doe , and must be subject to that law which alone gives strength to their title ; which being granted , i am sure it will not be denyed , that by the law of the nation , he that hath an estate in lands in fee-simple , by an implyed power , may lawfully alien , though there be an expression in his deed of purchase or donation to the contrary : which being so , makes the alienation of bishops lands even without any act of parliament , to be lawfull , being done by those who have an estate in fee simple , ( as the bishop , with the deane and chapter hath . ) then further , i am sure it will be granted , that by the law of this nation , whosoever hath lands or goods , hath them with this inseparable implyed condition or limitation , viz. that the parliament may dispose of them or any part of them at pleasure . hence it is they sometimes dispose some part in subsidies and other taxes ; enable a tenant for life , to sell an estate in fee-simple , and not at all unlawfull , because of that limitation or condition before mentioned ; and who ever will be owner must take them according to this law : now hence comes the mistake , by reason there is not such an expresse condition or limitation in the deed of donation , ( which would silence all disputes ) whereas it is as cleare a truth , that where any thing is necessarily by law implied , it is as much as if in plaine words expressed , of which your lawyers ( if reason need a helpe from them ) can easily resolve . besides , it were somewhat strange , that the donor of the lawes should preserve them in the hands of the bishops , from the power of the parliament ; which he could not doe in his owne , and give them a greater and surer right then he had himselfe : nor doe i understand their meaning , who terme god the proprieter of the bishops lands , and the bishop the usufructuary . for i know not how ( in propriety of speech ) god is more entituled to their lands then to his whole creation ; and were clergie-men but usufructuaries , how come they to change , dispose or alter the property of any thing , ( which an usufructuary cannot doe ) and yet is by them done daily ? aske them by what divine law s. maries church in oxford , may not be equally imployed for temporall uses , as for holding the vice-chancellours court , the university convocation , or their yearly acts ? and for the curses ( those bug-beare words ) i could yet never learne that an unlawfull curse was any prejudice but to the author , of which sort those curses must needs be , which restraine the parliament or any other from exercising a lawfull and undenyable power , which in instances would shew very ridiculous , if any curse should prejudice anothers lawfull right . i am sure such curses have no warrant from the law of god or this nation . if this doth not satisfie the former doubts in your bishops , ( for i know you to be too great a master of reason to be unsatisfied ) aske them whether church-lands may not lawfully ( the law of the state not prohibiting ) be transferred from one church to another upon emergent occasions ? which i think they will not deny . if so , who knowes that the parliament will transferre them to lay-hands ? they professe no such thing , and i hope they will not , but continue them for the maintenance of the ministery , ( which prevents all disputes upon the last question ) but if they shall hereafter do otherwise , you know my opinion : onely mistake me not in this free discourse , as if i did countenance or commend the parliaments proceedings in their new reformation , but as a caution to you in the exigencies of times , what is fittest to be done , when ( i take it ) mistresse necessity in all things indifferent , or not unlawfull , must be obeyed , in which cases the most constant men must be contented to change their resolutions with the alteration of time . your party have been resolute enough to preserve the rights of the church , and further peradventure then wise men would have done , but at an ultra posse you and we must give over , especially for an imaginary right . and think seriously with your selfe , whether after all other things granted , it will be fit to run the hazard of the very being of this church and state , the king and his posterity , and monarchy it selfe , onely upon the point of church-government by bishops , or aliening the church-lands , or rather whether the kings councell ( in duty ) ought not to advise him the contrary , who should be wise as well as pious , yet herein may be both , ( for i doe not thinke conveniencie or necessity will excuse conscience in a thing in it selfe unlawfull , what ever states-men maintain to the contrary ) your interest with the king is not small , and your power with the lords ( who are guided by reason ) very considerable , you cannot doe better then make use of both at this time . if they have a desire to preserve the church , it were wel their thoughts were fixed upon some course for setling a superintendencie in the presbyteriall government , ( which no way crosseth the nationall covenant ) and preserve the revenues in the church , which i beleeve at uxbridge treaty would have been granted , what ever it will be now . i have given you my sense upon the whole businesse . si quid novisti rectius , candidus imperti , si non his utere . j. t. so farewell doctor . i give you commission to shew this to my lord dorset , ( who by + and something else can guesse my name ) and to as many more as owne reason and honesty . an answer to the foregoing letter , superscribed to d. samuel turner , &c. sir , you have put an odde taske upon me , in commanding my judgement on a letter lately sent to a doctor in oxford , with a commission to shew it to the lord of dorset , and to as many more as own reason and honesty ; for this is the postscript , and many the like passages in the letter , ( as that the more wise and honest party would make use of their reason , and i know you too great a master of reason , to be unsatisfyed ) makes me feare , that if i should perhaps dissent in opinion from this epistler , i might be thought , ( at least in his conceite ) to incurre a sharpe censure both in point of reason and honesty : which i confesse at first somewhat troubled me , untill i remembred you were wont to say , that when vessels do once make such noises as these , t is a very shrewd signe they are empty . he who wrote the letter seemes most desirous of peace , and truly sir so am i ; besides we agree in this , that we must not commit sinne for a good end ; so that if peace it selfe cannot be attained without that guilt , we must be content with a worse estate . but you very well know , with how many severall deceipts our affections can mislead our reason ; you remember who it was that said it unto the very face of a prophet , i have kept the commandement of the lord , and yet his sin remained still a great sinne , and much the worse because he excused it : for his guilt is lesse that commits a crime , then his that undertakes to defend it ; because this cuts off all repentance , nay , it makes a sin to grow up into that more wicked heighth of a scandall , and so t is not only a snare to the sinner himselfe , but it warrants many more to be sinfull . whether this oxford londoner , for so i take the epistler to be , hath not defended or made apologies for sinne , and hath not in that sense , done evil that good may come thereof , i am now to make an enquiry , and i shall follow him in his two generals . 1. the delivering up the kings friends , whom they above call evil counsellors . and 2. the businesse of the church . 1. for the kings friends . he sayes , — i know not how you can with reason gainsay the bringing offenders to justice : indeed nor i neither , but what if they be not offenders ? what if they must be brought to injustice ? i know no man that will refuse to be judged by a parliament , whose undoubted head is the king , and the king sitting there , with an unquestioned negative , nay for his majesty to referre delinquents to be judged by the house of peers , sitting in a free parliament , and judging according to the known lawes of the realme , is that at least which in my opinion would not be stucke at . but the parliament prerogative , which this letter speakes of , being now so extended , as we have cause to thinke it is , i doubt in this case , whether not only in point of honour , but in point of justice and conscience , the king for his own peace , can leave his friends to such men , whom he is clearely bound by so many grand ties to protect . but this sir i shall commit to you to determine , and if you returne me a negative , i shall not presume to question your reason or honesty ; nor shall i perswade the kings friends that they would banish themselves , unlesse it were only to do that great favour to the two houses now at westminster , as to keep them from some future foule acts of oppression and bloud , because they shall have none left to act upon . 2. for the busines of the church , which he againe divides into two parts , first that of episcopacy , & secondly of sacriledge . and in these sir i shall speake with lesse hesitation , i shall clearely tell you the epistler is cleane out ; and though you very well know me a great honourer of your profession , yet i cannot hold it fit to decide cases of conscience , or in humane actions to tell us what is sinne or no sinne : and i am confident , sir , you will not take this ill at my hands . first for episcopacy , his words are , if i mistake not , ( and if i do , i pray reforme me ) the opinion that the government by bishops is jure divino , hath but lately been countenanced in england , and that by some few of the more lordly cleargy . these last words make me suspect some passion in the writer , as being in scorne heretofore taken up by men , who for a long time were schismatiques , in their hearts , and are now rebels in their actions : and since the lawes of this land makes some church men lords , i do the more marvaile that the epistler lookes awry upon it : so that though his profession be , that he has undergone labours and hazards for the episcopall government , yet truly sir i must thinke , that t is then only fit for the church to give him thankes , when she has done all her other busines . but grant that tenet to be but of late countenanced , it thence followes not , that t is any whit the lesse true . for in respect of the many hundred yeares of abuse , the reformation it selfe was but of late countenanced here , yet i take it for an unquestionable truth that the laity ought to have the cuppe . and though i was not desired to reforme this epistlers errour , yet in charity i shall tell him , that he is out , when he affirmes that this opinion was but of late countenanced in this church , as i could shew him out of archbishop whitgift , and bishop bilson and others : and since perhaps he may thinke these to be but men of the more lordly clergy , i shall name one more who may stand for many , and who wrote forty yeares since , that most excellent man m. hooker , ( a person of most incomparable learning , and of as much modesty , who i dare be bold to say , did not once dreame of a rotchet ) he averres in cleare tearmes , there are at this day in the church of england , no other then the same degrees of ecclesiasticall order , namely bishops , presbyters , and deacons , which had their beginning from christ and his blessed apostles themselves , or as he expounds himselfe , bishops and presbyters , ordained by christ himselfe in the apostles and the seventy , and then deacons by his apostles ; i may adde bucer too , no man i am sure of the lordly clergy , who though he were not english born , yet he was professor here in king edwards time , and he wrote and dyed in this kingdome , bishops , saith he , are ex perpetua ecclesiarum ordinatione ab ipsis jam apostolis , and more , usum hoc est spiritui sancto : and sure if bishops be from the apostles and from the holy spirit himselfe , they are of divine institution . nay what thinke you if this tenet be approved by a plaine act of parliament ? i hope then it wants no countenance which england can give it , and it needs not fly for shelter under the wings of the lordly cleargy ; you have these words in the booke of consecration of archbishops and bishops , which is confirmed by parliament ; it is evident to all men reading holy scriptures , and ancient authors , that from the apostles times there have been these orders of ministers in christs church , bishops , presbyters and deacons . and againe , the prayer in the forme of consecration of bishops , almighty god giver of all good things , which by thy holy spirit hast appointed divers orders of ministers in thy church , mercifully behold this thy servant now called to the worke and ministery of a bishop ; and in questions to the person to be consecrated a bishop , are you perswaded that you be truly called to this ministration , according to the will of our lord jesus ? &c. i beseech you sir consider , whether these words , or this prayer could fall from any man , not possessed with this tenet , that episcopacy was of divine right : for if the three orders may be found by reading the holy scriptures together with ancient authors : if men are taught to pray , that god by his spirit has appointed divers orders in his church , and this made the ground of praying for the present bishop , if the person to be consecrated must professe that he conceives he is called according to the will of our lord jesus christ , either all this must be nothing else but pure pagentry , and then the parliament mocked god by their confirmation , or else episcopacy is grounded in scripture , is appointed by the spirit of god , is according to the will of our lord jesus , and all this hath not been said of late , nor countenanced only by some few of the more lordly cleargy . and we have the lesse reason to doubt that this tenet was countenanced in this church of ours , because we find it in those parts that have lost episcopacy , for we are told by doctor carlton , after bishop of chichester , and that wrote against the arminians , more then twenty five yeares since , that sitting at dort , he then protested in open synod , that christ instituted no parity , but made twelve apostles , the chiefe , and under them seventy disciples : that bishops succeeded to the twelve , and to the seventy , presbyters of an inferiour ranke ; he affirmed this order had been still maintained in the church , and then challenged the judgement of any learnned man , that could speake to the contrary . their answer was silence , which was approbation enough , but after , ( saith he ) discoursing with diverse of the best learned in the synod , he told them how necessary bishops were , to suppresse their then risen schismes ; their answer was , that they did much honour and reverence the good order and discipline of the church of england , and with all their hearts would be glad to have it established among them ; but that could not be hoped for in their state : their hope was , that seeing they could not do what they desired , god would be mercifull unto them , if they did but what they could . if they hoped for mercy that might pardon what they did , sure they must suppose that what they then did , was sinfull : nay , they thought their necessity it selfe could not totally excuse their sinne ; for then in that particular there had been no need to hope for gods mercy : nor could they well thinke otherwise ; since being pressed , they denyed not but that episcopacy was of christs own institution , and yet they were no lordly clergy , nor do i well see how either by charitable or civil men , they can at all be taxed either for want of reason or honesty . 1. indeed some seem to startle at this tenet , that episcopacy is of divine right : as if , because divine , it might therefore seem to endanger monarchal power . but under favour i conceive this fear to be among us very groundlesse , for since the tenents of our church are in this particular the very self same with the ancient times : as that the bishops have no power , but what is meerely directive only ; that all power co-active either in them or in others , is derived meerly from the royal authority ; that they cannot legally make use , no not so much as of this directive power , but only by the kings leave : so that if the temporall lawes should forbid them to preach that , which in point of salvation is necessary to be spoken , yet they cannot preach but upon the forfeiture of their heads , and those being demanded by the kings lawes , they must submit to a martyrdome , ( though t were sinne in them that demand it ) so that in the execution of all ecclesiastical power , the supremacy is in the king alone ; these i say being so much the tenets of our church , that i conceive there is no learned man amongst us , who would not readily subscribe to them , i cannot see at all where in the opinion we defend , any danger lies to this monarchy . but examine the presbyterian principles , and you will clearely find , kings and they cannot stand together , for either you consider that new government in the scotish sence , which allowes no appeale to any other power , and then t is plaine , that where men admit this , they admit of a supremacy , which doth not reside in the king ; and by consequent , of two severall supremacies within the bounds of the selfe same kingdome , which can no more stand with monarchy , then it can with monogamy to be maried to two severall wives . and though t is said that this presbyterian government meddles only with spirituall things , which concerne the good of the soule , and so it cannot hurt regall power , yet this is but onely said , and no more : for it is well known , that in ordine ad spiritualia , ( and all things may by an ordinary wit be drawn into this ranke , as they have been by the church of rome ) this government intrudes upon what things it pleaseth ; and indeed where a supremacy is once acknowledged , no wise man can thinke , that it will carry it selfe otherwise . so that king james his maxime was undoubtedly most true , upon this same ground we are on , no bishop , no king : for that most prudent prince did soone discerne , that if a power were once set up , which at least in the legall execution of it , did not derive it selfe from the king , there was no doubt to be made , but it would ere long destroy the very king himselfe . or consider presbyterian government in the english sense , as it is now set up by the two houses at westminster , which is a government limited by an appeale to the parliament , for either by parliament here they meane the two houses excluding the king , and then t is as plain as before , they set up two supremacies , his majesties and their owne : or else by parliament they meane the king with both houses , and then it will follow , that either there must be a perpetuall parliament , ( which sure neither king nor kingdome can have cause to like ) or else the supremacy will be for the most part in the presbytery ; because when ever a parliament sits not , there will be no judge to appeale to ; or if it be said the parliament may leave a standing committee to receive appeales in such ecclesiasticall causes ; then either in this committee the king hath no negative ; and in that case t is clear that the ecclesiasticall supremacy will be not at all in the king ; or else the king hath a negative , but yet is joyned with persons whom he himself chooses not , and so most probably will be check'd and affronted in any sentence he intends to give ; and this clearely overthrowes that which is already declared by parliament , to be a right in the king , as inherent in his crowne , that ecclesiasticall appeales may be made to him alone in chancery , ( for the statute names no other ) and that his majesty alone may appoint what commissioners he please for their finall decision : i say , consider the presbyterian government in the english parliament sense , and in the sense of the english assembly , for the presbyterians there are wholly for the scotish forme , as appeares by their quarrels at what the houses have already done in their ordinances ; so that their aime is not only to set up a new government , but in plain tearmes , a new supremacy : and hence , to say truth , he must see very little who discernes not , that though the presbyterian party seemes to strike at the bishops , yet their maine aime is at the king ; whose supremacy they endure not , as being a flower which they intend for their owne garland ; and so , though they hypocritically cry out ( that they may abuse the people ) against the pride of the lordly bishops , yet in the meane time , the wiser sort must needs see , that they intend to make themselves no lesse then indeed kingly presbyters . we acknowledge the protestants of germany , the low countryes , and part of the reformed catholique protestant church , though they had no bishops , &c. though we maintain episcopacy to be of divine right , ( i. e. ) of divine institution , yet hence it doth not follow , that germany are no protestant churces ; no , it must be a crime of a most horrid taint , that makes a church run into non ecclesiam ; for though that of the jewes was bad , and idolatrously bad ; yet god seriously protests he had not sent her a bill of divorce . nay no learned man of judgement durst ever yet affirm that the roman church her selfe was become no true part of the church catholique ; and yet she breakes a flat precept of christ , [ drinke yee all of this ] and shall we be thought to deny the same right to christians without bishops , when they breake but christs institution ? no , churches they are , true parts of the catholique church : but in point of ordination and of government apostolicall they are not . i am certaine the king would never have given way to the extirpation of bishops in scotland , had he conceived them to be jure divino , &c. grant it were so , yet of all mankind are kings onely bound , that they must not change their opinions ; or if perhaps they have done ill , must they for their repentance be more lyable to reproach , then subjects are for their crimes ? the king would not have given way to the presbyterians , and independents , to exercise their religion here their own way , ( as by his messages ) ▪ when such a tolleration in the face of such a divine law must needs be sinfull . there is a great mistake in this argument ; for to tollerate , doth not at all signifie either to approve or commend their factions , neither of which the king could at all do to those schismatiques without sinne . but it meerely implies not to punish , which kings may forbeare upon just reason of state , as david forbore to punish the murtherers of joab ; and we our selves in our english state , have no punishment for all sorts of lyars , and yet their sinne is against a flat law divine . we affirme then episcopacy to be of divine right , that is , of divine institution , and that must needs tacitly imply a divine precept too ; for to what end are things instituted by god , but that it is presumed , it is our part to use them ? and to what end should some men be appointed to teach , and to govern , but that its clearely implyed , then there are other men too , that ought both to heare and obey ? he that institutes or erects a bridge over a broad swelling stream , needs not ( you will think ) adde an expresse command , that men should not walke in the water : thus when our lord and saviour made his institution of that great sacrament of the eucharist , he gave command indeed concerning the bread , do this in remembrance of me ; and concerning the cup , drinke yee all of this , but he gave no expresse command to do both these together , and yet his institution hath been still held to have the nature of a command ; and so for a thousand yeares the whole church of christ did ever practise it , save only in some few cases , in which men supposed a kind of necessity : i say then episcopacy is of divine right , instituted by christ in his apostles , who since they took upon them to ordaine and to govern churches , you need not doubt they received an authority from their master to do both ; for since men will not thinke they would breake their own rules : no man taketh this upon him , but he that is called of god , as aaron was . episcopacy then was instituted in the apostles , who wer bishops et aliud amplius ; and distinguished by christ himself from the seventy , who were the presbyters . so the most ancient fathers generally , or if you will take s. hierom. opinion , ( who was neither a bishop , nor in his angry mood any great friend to that order ) they were instituted by the apostles , who being themselves episcopi et amplius , did in their latter dayes formalize and bound out that power which still we do cal episcopacy . and so their received opinions may stand together for episcopatus , being in apostolatu tanquam consulatus in dictatura , as the lesser and subordinate power , is alwayes in the greater : we may truly say it was instituted by christ in his apostles who had episcopall power and more , and then t was formalized and bounded by the apostles themselves , in the persons of timothy and titus , &c. so that call the episcopall order either of divine right , or apostolicall institution , and i shall not at all quarrell at it : for apostolicall will seeme divine enough , unto christians ; i am sure salmatius thinks so , ( a sharpe enemy to the episcopall order ) if ( saith he ) it be from the apostles , t is of divine right ; thus we find the power of ordination and of jurisdiction to be given to those men alone ; for then that power is properly episcopall , when one man alone may execute it , so s. paul to timothy , lay hands suddenly on no man , 1 tim. 5. 22. lay hands in the singular number , thou , & thou alone , without naming any other : against an elder , receive not an accusation , in the singular number too ; thou , receive not , thou alone , but under two or three witnesses ; and then the text is plaine , he and he alone might do it . so to titus for this cause , and that thou , and thou alone , shouldest set in order the things that are wanting , and ordaine elders in every city , tit. 1. 5. where plainly those two powers of government and ordination are given unto one man ; so s. iohn to the churches of asia , rev. 2. 3. when he presumes all the governing power to reside in the angels of those churches , and only in them alone , as all ancients understand it . and hence t is plaine , that though we should yeeld that the apostles only did institute bishops , yet in this revel. christ himselfe immediately in his own person , and the holy spirit withall , did both approve and confirme them : and the learned observe , that the bishops of those sees , are therefore called angels by s. iohn , who was born a jew , because in palestina their chief priests were then called their angels ; and so this appellation was taken up by the apostle in that place , because the bishops were those churches chiefes : this truth appeares not only from those cleare texts , but from the mutuall consent and pactise for more then 1500. yeares space of all the christian church ; so that neither s. hierome , nor any other ancient , did ever hold orders to be lawfully given , which were not given by a bishop , nor any church jurisdiction to be lawfully administred , which was not either done by their hands , or at least by their deputation . i know there are men lately risen up , especially in this last century , which have collected and spread abroad far other conclusions , and that from the authority of the text it selfe : but as t is a maxime in humane lawes , consuetudo optima legum interpres , custome and practice is the best interpreter : so no rationall man but will easily yeeld , it as well holds in lawes divine : for i would gladly aske , what better way can there be for the interpreting of texts , then that very same meanes whereby i know the text it selfe to be text ? sure the same course whereby i know the epistles to timothy and titus to have been written by s. paul , must needs be the best course to understand the sense of those epistles ; and if i therefore beleeve them to be written by that apostle , because the universality of the whole christian church has brought me to that beliefe , ( and there 's no other rationall way of beleeving it ) why doe i not beleeve the same christian sense , which the universal consent assures me they were written in ? shall i beleeve , and yet disbeleeve that selfe-same consent which is the best ground of my beliefe ? this is as it were in cleare terms to say , that i beleeve such a tale for the authors sake who hath told it , and yet i doe now hold the selfe-same man to be a lyar . men doe beleeve the testimony of universall consent , in the sense it gives of single termes , and why not in the sense it gives of sentences or propositions ? without the help of this consent , ( which is indeed the ground of our dictionaries ) how shall we know that {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} signifies the resurrection of the body , which the socinians at this day deny ? and i know no such way to confute your error , as by the authority of your consent . admit then of that rule , that consent universall is the best interpretation of texts ; and then i am sure , it is as cleare as true , that episcopacy is of divine or apostolicall right ; yea and that proposition , there can be no ordination , without the hands of a bishop , will clearely appeare to be as well grounded as this ; there can be no baptisme without a lawfull minister , which is good divinity amongst our new masters in scotland : and antiquity allowed of it , extra casum necessitatis : for i aske upon what text doe they ground this rule ? i suppose they will say upon our saviours words , to the eleven , matth. 28. go teach all nations , and baptize them : but in the institution of the eucharist he spake those words too ; but only to the twelve , drinke yee all of this , matth. 26. i demand then how shall i know that when our saviour spake those words unto the eleven , he spake them only as to lawfull ministers ; but when he spake the other , to the twelve he spake at large as unto them that did represent all christian men ? so that though only ministers may baptize , yet all christians may receive the cup : perhaps they will say , that the generall practise of receiving the cup , is manifest from 1 cor. 11. and i thinke so too , where s. paul seems to chide the whole church for their irreverence at that great sacrament : but if a quarreler should reply , that he there speaks but of the presbyters alone , whereof many were at that time at corinth : as when in the 5. chap. he seemes to chide the whole church for not excommunicating the incestuous person : yet t is plain , he meanes none but the men in government ( as sure all presbyterians will allow me ) i know not what could be said but to make it appeare out of the fathers , and others , that the whole christian church never tooke the words in that sense . and if to stop the mouthes of wranglers , we must at length be constrained to quote the authority of universall consent , and the common practise of christs church , then you will easily see that those two named propositions do stand fast on the same bottome , there can be no baptisme without a lawfull minister , extra casum necessitatis , for so the consent and practise of the universall church hath still interpreted that text : and againe t is true , there can be no ordination without the hands of a bishop , for so those texts both out of timothy and titus have been understood , and practised for 1500. yeares together by the consent of the whole church of christ . t is true that this precept , go ye teach , &c. runnes not in exclusive words , yee apostles , or yee lawfull ministers , and none but yee ; yet extra casum necessitatis , no man was allowed to baptise but a lawfull minister : so though these commands , [ lay hands suddenly on no man ] and [ do thou ordaine elders in every city ] runne not in verbis exclusivis , thou and none but thou , or men of thine order only : yet the church understanding and practising them in an exclvsive sense , no man for 1500 yeares in any setled church , was held rightly ordained , without the hands of a bishop . nay that there is something divine in the episcopall order , will appeare clearely by this , that immediately from the times of christ & his apostles , ( yea within the reach of those times ) t was universally spread throughout the whole face of the churches : so that no man can name a nationthat was once wonne unto the christian faith , but he shall soon find that there were bishops : so that there must needs be an uunversall cause , for an effect that was so universall . generall councell there was none about it , at which all christians might have met , and might have thence obeyed her directions . nor can any name a power to which all christians should submit ( for they were soone fallen into factions ) but only the authority of christ or of his apostles ; from them then must needs flow the episcopal order , and at that fountaine i shall leave it . i say within the reach of the apostles times , for before s. iohn dyed , there are upon good church records above 20. bishops appointed to the several sees ; as at hierusalem , alexandria , antioch , and rome , & ephesus , at creece , at athens , and colosse , & divers others , it being easie to draw a catalogue of them out of several ecclesiasticall writers . and here it will be plain , that its a foule corruption ; nay , how flat a sinne is brought into the church of christ , where episcopacy is thrown down ! and so where ordination is performed by any hands without theirs , t is as grosse , as if lay-men should be allowed to baptize , when a presbyter doth stand by : nay more , it is as bad as if the order of presbyters should therefore be thrown downe , that lay-men might baptize : and what 's this , but willingly to runne into a necessity it selfe , that wee might thence create an apology ? t is a corruption farre worse , then if a church should audaciously attempt to pull down the lords day ; since the observation of that time is neither built on so cleare a text , nor on the helpe of so universall a consent , as is the order of episcopacy : so that if men can thinke it sinfull to part with the lords day , though the institution of it be meerly apocryphall , they must needs confesse there is at least so much sinne , ( nay indeed more ) in parting with their bishops , and then the oxford doctrine which the epistler gybes at , and talkes of , as transmitted for an orthodox truth , will it seemes prove no lesse in earnest . secondly , for the point of sacriledge ; the better to cl●●●e this , i must premise these assertions . 1. that god accepts of things given him , and so holds a propriety as well in the new , as in the old testament . 2. that god gets this propriety in those things he holds , as well by an acceptation of what is voluntarily given , as by a command that such things should be presented to him . 3. that to invade those things , be they moveable , or immoveable , is expresly the sinne of sacriledge . 4. that this sinne is not only against gods positive law , but plainly against his morall law . 1. proposition . god accepts of things given , &c. for proofe of this , first i quote that text , i hungred and ye gave me meat ; i thirsted and ye gave me drinke , &c. mat. 25. if christ do not accept of these things , he may say indeed , yee offered me meat , but he cannot say that yee gave it : for a present is then only to be called a gift , when it is accepted as his own that takes it . and do's he thus accept of meat and clothing , and do's he not accept of those kind of endowments , that bring both these to perpetuity ? will he take meat and refuse revenues ? doth he like ( can you imagine ) to be fed and clothed to day , and in danger to be starved to morrow ? the men thus provided for , he calles no lesse then his brethren : in as much as you have done it unto the least of these my brethren , yee have done it unto me . whether these were of those brethren which he had enjoyned to teach others , or of those which he would have instructed , the text there doth not decide ; without doubt it must be meant of both ; for it were a strange thing to affirme that christ liked it extreame well to be fed and to be clothed , in all those he called his , but only in his seventy , and his apostles ▪ but to put it out of doubt , that what is done to them , is done to him too , his owne words are very plain , he that receiveth you , teaching disciples , receiveth me ; in the tenth of that gospell , where he sends all forth to preach , and that reception implyes all such kind of provisions , as is apparently plaine throughout the whole tenour of the chapter . and againe , i quote that so well known passage of ananias and saphyra his wife , act. 5. his sin was , he kept back part of the price of those lands he had given to god , for the publique use of the church , yea , given to god , and t is as plaine that he did accept it ; for s. peter you know thus reprooves him , why hast thou lyed , or why hast thou deceived the holy ghost ? for so {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} do's properly import , why doest thou cheat him of what is now his own proper right ? and againe , thou hast not lyed unto men , but unto god : and is this so strange a thing ? are not all our lyes to be accounted sinnes before god ? yes , all against god , as a witnesse and a judge ; but yet not all against god as a party : and therefore t is a more remarkeable , a more signall lye , thou hast not lyed unto men ; a negative of comparison , not so much to men , as to god : what 's done to them is scarce worth the naming , but thou hast lyed unto god , as a witnesse and a judge ; yea and a party too . thou hast lyed , & rob'd god by lying , and so runne thy selfe into an eminent sinne : and that shall appeare in gods judgement , so the fathers generally expound that place ; both of the greek and latine church , and affirme his crime was a robbing god of that wealth , which by vow or by promise was now become gods propriety : so the modern interpreters , yea , so calvin , sacrum esse deo profitebatur , he professed that his land should be a sacred thing unto god , ( sayes he ) on that place ; and there beza too , pradium deo consecrassent ; the the man and his wife , they consecrated this land to god , and he that will not believe so universall a consent in the interpreting a place of scripture , should do well to consider , whether upon the same ground ( as i told you before ) he may not be brought to doubt of his dictionary , for that is but universal consent ; he may almost as well doubt whether {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} signifyes god , and altogether as well , whether {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} signifyes the gospell . the new testament will afford more places for this purpose ; thou that abhorrest idols , committest thou sacriledge ? rom. 2. 22. t is true , these words are spoken as to the person of an unconverted jew , and may be therefore thought to aime only at those sinnes , which were descryed in the law of moses : but do but view s. pauls way of arguing , and you will quickly find they come home to us christians too : he there tells the jew that he taught others those things , which yet he would not do himselfe : and he strives to make this good by three severall instances , first , thou that preachest a man should not steale , doest thou steale ? secondly , thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery , dost thou commit adultery ? in both these , t is plain , that the jew he dealt with did the same things he reprehended : and straightway the third comes , thou that abhorrest idols , dost thou commit sacriledge ? so that hence 't will follow ( if s. pauls words have logique in them ) that these two sinnes are of the selfe same nature too : and that to commit a sacriledge is a breach of the same law , as to commit an idolatry : so that crime will appeare without all doubt a plain robbery of god ; for he that steales from men , yea though a whole community of men , though bona universitatis , yet he sinnes but against his neighbour , t is but an offence against the second table of the law , in these words , thou shalt not steale : but sacriledge layes hold on those things which the latine lawes call bona nullius , it strikes downright immediately at god , and in that regard no idolatry can out doe-it : as this is , t is a breach of the first table of the law , and both these crimes are equally built upon the self-same contempt of god ; the offenders in both kinds , the idolater and sacrilegious person both thinke him a dull sluggish thing ; the first thinkes he will patiently looke on , while his honour is shared to an idol ; the other imagines he 'l be as sottishly tame , though his goods be stoln to his face . this was without doubt the sense of all ancient churches ; for upon what ground could they professe they gave gifts to god , but only upon this , that they presumed god did stil accept them ? so s. iraeneus , we offer unto our god our goods in token of thankefullnesse . so origen , by gifts to god we acknowledge him lord of all : so the fathers generally ; so emperours and kings ; so charles the great , to god we offer what we deliver to the church , in his well known capitulars : and our own kings have still spoken in this good old christian language ; we have granted to god , for us and our heires for ever , that the church of england shall be free , and have her whole rights and liberties inviolable ; they are all the first words of our magna chart. her whole rights & liberties , words of a very large extent , and imply farre more then her substance : and yet these , and all these lands , and honours , and jurisdictions ; all these have beene given to god ; yea , and frequently confirmed by the publique acts of the kingdome : and yet if ananias might thus promise , and yet rob god , consider i beseech you , whether england may not do so too . 2. proposition , god gets this propriety as well by an acceptation of what is voluntarily given , as by a command , that such things should be presented to him . for the second , t is plaine in the text , that god did as much take the temple to be his , as he did the jewes tithes and offerings . these last indeed were his by expresse law & command , but the temple was the voluntary designe of good david , and the voluntary work of king solomon . nay god expresly tels david , that he had been so far from commanding that house , that he had not so much as once asked this service . and therefore in his apologie saint paul tels the jewes , neither ( sayes he ) against the law of the jewes , nor against the temple , have i offended any thing : for he might in some case offend against the temple , and yet not against the law : notwithstanding all this , god pleads as much for his temple in the prophet haggai , as he doth in malachi for his tithes , in this his words are , ye have robbed we in tithes and offerings ; in the other , is it time for you , o ye , to dwell in sieled houses , and this house lie waste ? therefore ye have sowne much , and bring in little , ye eate , but have not enough , so hag. 1. 4. and to affirme , that god in the new testament doth accept of meat , and drink , and cloathing , as it is plaine , mat. 25. he doth accept of money land was sold for , as in the case of ananias , and yet that he doth not accept land it selfe , is so contrary to all reason , so contrary to the practice not onely of the christian , but humane world , so contrary to what god himselfe has expressed in the old testament , and no where ●●called it in the new , that he ▪ that can quiet his conscience with such concepts as these , may i doubt not attaine to the discovery of some quirkes , which in his conceipt may either palliate murthers or adulteries : for to think that those possessions are indeed gods which he doth command , but not those which he doth accept , is to use god so as we would neither use our selves nor our neighbours : for no man doubts but that 's as properly mine which i accept as a gift from others , as what i attaine to by mine owne personall acquisition , be it by a just war , by study , by merchandice , or the like . 3. proposition . that to invade those things consecrated , be they moveable or immoveable , is expresly the sin of sacriledge . sacriledge is then committed , say the schooles and the casuists , ( and they speak in their owne profession ) quando reverentia rei sacrae debita violatur : when we violate that reverence due to a thing sacred , by turning it into a thing profane : so as the violation may be committed either per furtum , by theft , strictly so taken , by stealing a thing moveable ; or per plagium , which is the stealing of a man ; or per invasionem , which is a spoiling men of lands , or of things immoveable : for as any one of these done against our neighbour is no doubt in scripture phrase a theft , a sin against the 8. commandment , thou shalt not steale : so done against god , t is no doubt a sacriledge , and a breach of the first table , be it either against the first or the second commandement , i stand not now to dispute : for the word used in the new test . to expresse this sin , is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , from {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , praeda , or spolium : so that sacriledge is not to be defined onely by theft strictly taken , but t is a depredation , a spoliation of things consecrated , and so the word extends it selfe as properly ( if not more ) to lands , as it doth to things moveable . and hence aquinas is plaine , that sacriledge reaches out its proper sense ad ea quae deputata sunt ad sustentationem ministrorum , sive sint mobilia , sive immobilia : for it would be very strange to affirme , that in the sacking of jerusalem , nebuchadnezzar was sacrilegious , when he transported the holy vessels , but not at all when he burnt the temple . 4. proposition , that this sinne is not onely against gods positive law , but plainly against the morall law . for this common reason hath taught all , even pagan nations to hold sacriledge a sinne : so that lactantius observes , ( and he was well read in humane learning , which made him to be chose tutor to a sonne of constantine the great ) inomni religione nihil tale sine vindicto : god did still remarkably revenge this sinne , not onely in the true , but amongst men of the most false religions : and 't were easie to shew , that never any nation did yet adore a god , but they thought he did accept , and did possesse himselfe of some substance . i omit those proofs that would be thought far too tedious , t is enough to quote the prophets words , will a man rob god ? yet ye have robbed me , mal. 3. 8. a man , any man , though an ammonite , or a meere philistine , no pagan ( that must be the sense ) will doe it to his god , which you jewes doe to me ; for the law written in his heart ( and he can goe by no other ) that law controlls this offence , and so plainly tells him , that because his god may be robb'd , he may therefore have a propriety ; and if sacriledge be a sin against the law morall , it will follow , that what wee read in the old testament against that sinne , must be as morall , and that whereby we christians are as much obliged , as by what we read against theft , or against adultery ; save onely in those passages which are particularly proper unto the policie of the jews , and we may let them goe for judiciall . these assertions being premised , i returne to the epistler , who conceives it to be no sacriledge to take away the church lands ; [ nor do i ( saith he ) herein ground my opinion barely upon the frequent practise of former times , not onely by acts of parliament in the times of queen elizabeth , king james , and so king charles , if you have not forgotten the exchange of durham house , as well as h. 8. but even by the bishops themselves , &c. ] he will not ground his opinion upon the practise ; and indeed he hath little reason for it : for if from a frequent practise of sinne , we might conclude it were no sinne , we might take our leaves of the decalogue ; and as our new masters do , put it out of our directory , because our intent is to sinne it downe : and therefore i shall say no more of such lawes of hen. 8. then i would of davids adultery a that t is no ground at all to make men bold with their neighbours wives . queene elizabeth made a law ( so you have told me sir , for i do speake nothing in this kind but from you ) that bishops might not alienate their mannors , castles , &c. but only to the crowne , but if she sometimes tooke order that church , men should not be bishops , untill they had first made such alienations ( as i have heard you say they did ) i know not how to defend it , but must withall tell you , that if princes or subjects resolve to sell the church preferments , t is great odds but that in a clergy consisting of above 16000. persons , they shall not want chapmen for them : for king james , i must highly commend that most christian prince , who ( you say ) amongst his first lawes , tooke away that of queen elizabeth : not can i well tell why this epistler here doth quote that king for his purpose , unlesse it were only for the alienation of york ▪ house ; but i must informe him that that act was lawfull , because 't was for the advantage of the archiepiscopall see , there being cleare text for it , that the levits themselves might change what was theirs by a divine law , so they gained by the permutation ; and this answer will serve for what king charles did about durham house . but he thinks it an argument , that even by bishops themselves , deanes , and chapters , &c. such things were done , alienations made , and long leases granted : true sir , for those clergymen were but men , and their sinnes can at all no more abrogate gods law , then can the sinnes of the laity : yet i could name you church-men of great note , who totally refused to be preferred by that queene to any bishopricke at all , because they would by no meanes submit their conscience unto the base acts of such alienations , and one of them was bishop andrews : i could tell you too that those long leases he speakes of , might have one cause more then the marriage of the clergy ; for when they saw men so sharply set upon the inheritance of the church ; when they saw a stoole of wickednesse set up , of sacrilegious wickednes , that imagined mischiefe by a law , some , not the worst of men , thought it fit to make those long leases , that the estate of the church might appeare the more poore , and so lesse subject unto harpies , and then their hope was , at the length ▪ at least after many yeares spent , it might returne whole unto their successours . he goes on , but to deale clearely with you doctor , i do not understand how there can be any sacriledge ( properly so called ) which is not a theft and more , viz. a theft of some thing dedicated to holy use , ( a co●●munion cup for instance or the like ) and th●se you know must be of things moveable , 〈…〉 civil law , and how theft can be of lands , or 〈…〉 by alienating church lands ; i pray aske your friend holborne , and his fellow lawyers , for ours here deride us for the question . ) it seemes sir they are very merry at london , or at least this epistler thinks so ; for being winners he might perhaps conceive they make themselves pleasant at a feather . and that this argument is as light a thing , appeares before from my third assertion : for can any man thinke in earnest , that t is sacriledge , and so a sinne , to take a cup from the church , and t is none to take away a mannour ? as if ahab had been indeed a thiefe , had he rob'd naboth of his grapes , but eliah was too harsh to that good king , because he only tooke away his vineyard : indeed there is such a nicety in the civill law , that actio furti lyes only against him , who has stolne rem mobilem : for justinian it seemes in the composition of his digests ( which he tooke from the writings of the old jurisprudentes ) thought it fit to follow ulpians judgement , and yet sabinus in his booke de furtis , a man of note amongst those men , was known to be of another opinion : non tantum ( sayes he ) rerum moventium , sed fundi quoque , et aedium fieri furtum : a theft properly so call'd may be of things immoveable : i would gladly know of the epistler whether he thinks all men both divines and others , bound to frame all the phrases of their speech according to the criticismes of the civill law , as it s now put out by justinian ? if not , why may not some use the word furtum in sabinus his sense , as well as others may in ulpians ? and then sacriledge may be properly called a theft , and as properly in immoveables ; or if we will needs speake according to his sense whom justinian hath approved , i do not well see how men can spoile the church of her lands , and at the civil law escape an action of theft : for it lyeth against him that takes the trees , & the fruits , and the stones , and i am confident there is no church-robber , but he intends to make use of these kinds of moveables ; otherwise what good wil the church-land do him ? and if he does make this use , a thiefe he is in the civill law phrase , & then in the very sense of this epistler himself , he is without doubt a sacrilegious person : but where i wonder did that londoner learne , that furtum strictè sumptum , was the genus of sacriledge ? so that where there is no theft in the civill law sense there is none of this kind of sin : i am sure t is neither intimated by the greek , nor the latine word : nor i believe delivered by any learned authors on the subject : so that i must set down an assertion , ( i conceive well grounded too ) point blanck against this londoner , and affirme there may be a sacriledge properly so call'd , which is not a theft in the civill law-sense ( which has been grounded in the third assertion ) and then we need not trouble sir robert holborne ( that learned gentleman may have other busines ) nor his fellow lawyers , for i doubt not there are enough besides , who will here smile at this passage , and will thinke that this epistler hath met with a civill law quirke , which he knew not well how to weild : but to say truth he deales clearely with the doctor , and tels him that for his particular , he doth not yet understand ; which for my part i believe ; and do not only wonder , he would gibe at another man , in a point he could no better master . but these arguments it seemes are but only the forlorne-hope , the main battell is yet to come . he calls this the main quere , and desires patience from the doctor , first ( saith he ) i lay this as a foundation , that there is no divine command that ministers under the gospell should have any lands . true , the clergy under the gospell hold not their lands by a divine command , but they do by a divine acceptation by christs most gracious acceptance of such goods and possessions which have been given him by good christians : and this title you now heare will go as farre as a law , and that is we conceive farre enough , for it gives god a propriety in such lands , and so keeps men from a re-assumption . he goes on , the hire of a labourer at most , as fitting maintenance , is all that can be challenged : i but that maintenance must be honourable , or else we christians shall use god like no other men ; farre worse i am sure then do pagans : and when such a maintenance hath been once given in lands , the acceptation of christ will soone make it irrevocable : so that it signifyes little to say the apostles had no lands ; for they who had the money for lands fold , might ( no man can well doubt ) have still kept the lands had they liked it : but the church was straight to be in hot persecution , the disciples were to fly , and lands we know are no moveables , and it were very strange if not ridiculous to affirme that ananias and his wife sinned in taking back● that money which they promised , but if in specie they had given their lands , they might have revoked that gift without sacriledge . he proceeds , which i mention to avoid the groundlesse argument upon the lands and portions allotted to the tribe of levi by gods appointment ▪ to whom our ministere have no succession . our ministers challenge nothing which belongs to that tribe , by leviticall right : but where things are once given to god for the use of his ministers , they there get a morall interest ; and what wee read of this kind in the old testament , doth as much obli●ge christians , as if it were found in the now . [ and 〈…〉 that they enjoy their 〈◊〉 by the 〈…〉 others do , and must be subject to that law which alone gives strength to their title . ] out into 〈◊〉 : have church-men no title to those possessions they enjoy , but by the law of this land alone ? yes , besides these , they have christs acceptation , and so they are become theirs by law evangelicall : their lands are gods own propriety , and so they hold from him by the law morall too ; and therefore though by the lawes of the land they hold estates in fee-simple , and so may alienate without punishment from the law of england : yet they cannot do it without the guilt of sinne , as being a breach of the law evangelicall and morall : except then only when they better themselves by some gainfull , or at least by some not hurtfull permutation . besides , were the argument good , it would only follow , that the clergy by their owne act might alienate their lands , but no man else without their consent . and i conceive it would not now prove so easie a taske to bring church-men to such an alienation . but the parliament may do it ▪ for ( sayes he ) i am sure it will be granted , that ( by the lawes of this nation ) whosoever hath lands or goods , hath them with this inseparable limitation and condition : viz. that the parliament may dispose of them or any part of them at pleasure . this you have oft told me sir is strange doctrine ; for either the parliament , ( i hope he meanes the king in parliament ) doth this , as being the supreame power , or as being representative , and so including the consent of the whole people of england . if as being the supreame power , it will follow , that any absolute prince may as lawfully do the like ▪ and yet this hath been ever held tyrannicall in the great turk , as being against the rules of justice and humanity . indeed samuel 〈◊〉 the israelites , that since they would needs change their theocracy , the immediate government of god himselfe , though it were into monarchy , the best of all humane governments , the king should take their sons and their daughters , their fields , and their vineyards , &c. and they should cry , and should find no help : yet the best divines think , that this would be most unjust , most sinful in their king , and expresly against the law of moses , who leaves every man his propriety , onely the prophet there averres it should be not punishable in him , they should have no remedy , since being the supreame power , 't was in no subjects hands to judge him : so if the king in parliament should take away church-lands , there is ( i confesse ) no resistance to be made , though the act were inhumanely sinfull . or secondly , the parliament does this as representing the whole people ▪ and so including their consent ( for they who consent can receive no injury ) and then i understand not which way it can at all touch the clergy , who are neither to be there by themselves , nor yet ( god knowes ) by representation : or if againe they were there , i would gladly know what burgesse , or what knight of a shire , nay what clerke , or what bishop doth represent christ ( whose lands these are ) and by vertue of what deputation ? nor doe i beleeve that any subject intends to give that power to him that represents him in parliament , as to destroy his whole estate , except then onely , when the known laws of the land make him lyable to so high a censure . but grant that this were true in mens lands , yet sure it will not hold in god's . for since in magna charta ( that hath received by parliament at least 30. confirmations ) the lands we speak of are now given to god , and promise there made , that the church shall hold her whole rights and liberties inviolable . sure the kingdome must keep what she hath thus promised to god , and must now think to beginne to tell him of implyed conditions , or limitations : for it were a strange scorne put upon god , if men should make this grand promise to their maker , and then tell him after so many hundreds of yeares , that their meaning was to take it back at their pleasure : i believe there is no good pagan that would not blush at this dealing , and conclude , that if christians may thus use their god , without doubt he is no god at all . he goes on , [ hence is it they sometimes dispose some part in subsidies , and other taxes . ] the parliament disposeth part of mens estates in subsidies , and taxes , and with their consents , ergo , it may dispose of all the church lands , though church-men themselves should in down right termes contradict it : truly sir , this argument is neither worth an answere nor a smile : for i am sure you have often told me that the parliament in justice can destroy no private mans estate : or if upon necessity it may need this or that subjects land for some publique use , yet that court is in justice bound to make that private man an amends . subsidies you said were supposed to be laid on salvo contenemento , so that a duke might still live like a duke , and a gentleman like a gentleman : is it not so with the clergy too ? by their own consent indeed , and not otherwise ; they are often imposed , and they are paid by them ; but yet they are burthens which they may beare salvo contenemento : and they are paid not out of gods propriety , by alienating of his lands , but out of that usus fructus they receive from god : and so the maine doth still go on to their successors . so that to inferre from any of these usages , that the 〈◊〉 of bishops , and deanes , and chapters , may be wholly alienated from the church , is an inference that will prevaile with none but those , who being led by strong passions that it should be so , make very little use of their reason to oppose that passion . he proceeds , [ now hence comes the mistake , by reason there is not such an expresse condition or limitation in the deeds of donation , ( which would silence all dispute ) whereas it is as cleare a truth , that where any thing is necessarily by law implyed , it is as much as in plain termes expressed . ] no marvell if such conditions be not expressed in benefactors deeds of donation , because it would make pious deeds most impiously ridiculous : for who would not blush to tell god , that indeed he gives him such lands , but with a very clear intent to revoke them ; and what christian will say that such an intent is tacitely there , which it were impiety to expresse ? nay t is apparantly cleare , in the curses added by such donors , upon those who shall attempt to make void their gifts , that their meaning was plaine , such lands should remaine gods for ever : by magna charta these gifts are confirmed unto the church for ever , ( she shall have her whole rights and liberties inviolable ) and yet is there a tacite condition in the selfe-same law that they may be violated . no marvell if with us men cannot trust men , if god himselfe cannot trust our lawes . and if that charter , or any else made by succeeding princes , do indeed confirme such donations ( as without all doubt they do ) sure they must confirme such donations in that same sence wherein the donors made them ; for so do all other confirmations ; nay in this case of a totall dis-inhaerison , there cannot be in law any such tacite conditions or limitations as the epistler speakes of : for i have shewed such to be unjust ▪ and tyrannicall in a private subjects estate , and therefore in gods they are much more unjust ; because they are sure he cannot offend ; and an unjust and tyrannicall meaning must not be called the meaning of the law . the letter goes on . [ besides , it were somewhat strange , that the donors of the lands should preserve them in the hands of the bishops from the power of parliament , which he could not doe in his owne , and give them a greater and surer right then he had himselfe . ] the lay-donee might preserve them thus in his owne hands , suppose him but an honest person : for though a parliament may impunè disinherit such an innocent man , yet they cannot doe it justè ; and so in this regard both the donor and the donee are in the same condition . besides , t is no such strange thing , for the self-same right ( as a right suppose of fee-simple ) to become more sure in his hands that takes , then it ever was in his hands that gave it . for though the right it self be still the same right , ( for nemo dat quod non habet ) yet by gift it may now come into a more strong hand , and by this meanes that selfe-same right may become the stronger . and sure with us gods hand should be more strong then mans : nay hence , as some think , lands given to the church , were said to come in manum mortuam , as it were into a dead hand , which parts with nothing it hath once closed upon . and why the epistler should call this a strange thing , i doe not yet see the reason , because t is alwayes so , when any one benefactor doth by vertue of a mortmaine convey his lands to any kind of corporation . againe , [ nor doe i understand their meaning , who terme god the proprietor of the bishops lands , and the bishop the usufructuary . ] i conceive i have made this plaine , because such lands were first offered to god , and became his owne property by his owne divine acceptation : and if the dominium directum of these things doe once rest in god , the dominium utile , the usus fructus alone is the onely thing left to be the patrimony of his clergie . but he addes a reason , [ for i know not how ( in propriety of speech ) god is more entitled to their lands , then to his whole creation . ] here the epistler speaks out : for truly , sir , i feare the lawyer your friend is little better then an independent . how ? hath god no more title in propriety of speech to one piece of ground then another ? no more to a place where a church is built , then where men have now placed a stable ? our english homilies , which are confirmed by law , cry downe this crosse piece of anabaptisme . t is true , god made all things , and so the whole world is most justly his by that great right of creation : but yet the psalmists words are as true , the earth hath he given to the children of men . so as that great god is now wel content to receive back what men will give him : and this acceptance of his must needs in all reason make those things his more peculiarly . thus christ calls the temple his fathers house : 't was god's , and god's more peculiarly , not onely by right of creation , but by gift . thus lands given unto god are his , and his more peculiarly ; his , because he made them , and his againe , because having once given them to the children of men , upon their gift he did accept them : so that his priests , and his poore being sustained by them , he calls it in a more peculiar manner , his meat , his drinke , and his cloathing : and then if in point of acceptance with god , there be great difference between feeding his priests , and feeding them that doe him no such service , there must needs be as much difference between lands set out unto that sacred use , and lands of a more common employment . he gives a second reason , [ were clergie-men but usufructuaries , how come they to change , dispose , or alter the property of any thing , ( which an usufructuary cannot doe ) and yet is done by you daily ? ] how come they to change or dispose any thing ? yes , they may change , or dispose , or alter many kinds of things , for so without doubt any usufructuary may doe , so he wrong not his lord by an abuse done to his propriety . thus he may change his corne into clothing , or , if he please , his wool into books : nay he may alter the property of his possessions too , if he have expresse leave of his lord : and god himself did tell levi , that he was well content that men should alter some things that belonged to him , so it were for the tribes advantage , levit. 27. 13 : the letter goes on . [ aske them by what divine law s. maries church in oxford may not be equally imployed for temporall uses , as for holding the vice chancellors court , the university convocation , or their yeerly acts ? ] he might as well have asked , why not as well for temporall uses , as for temporall uses ? for if those he names be not so , his argument is naught ; and if they be so , t is not well put downe . his meaning sure was for other temporall uses , as well as for those . and truly sir , to put a church to any such kind of use , is not to be defended ; and therefore i excuse not the university : especially she having had ( at least for a good time ) so many large places for those meetings . yet something might be said for the vice-chancellours court , because t is partly episcopal , something for the act at least in comitiis , because t is partly divine ; but i had rather it should receive an amendment then an excuse . though it follow not neither , that because this church is sometimes for some few houres abused , therefore it may be alwayes so ; as if because sometimes t is made a profane church , t is therefore fit 't were no church at all . he proceeds . [ and as for their curses ( those bug-beare words ) i could never yet learne that an unlawfull curse was any prejudice but to the author : of which sort those curses must needs be , which restraine the parliament , or any there from exercising a lawfull and undenyable power , which in instances would shew very ridiculous , if any curse should prejudice anothers lawfull right . i am sure such curses have no warrant from the law of god , or this nation . ] no warrant from the word of god ? i conceive there is a very cleare one : & our mother-church commends it to the use of her sons in the expresse words of her commination , cursed be he that removeth away the mark of his neighbours lands : and all the people shall say , amen . deut. 27. 17. if he be accursed that wrongs his neighbour in his lands , what shall he be that injures god ? if a curse light upon him ( and a publique curse confirmed by an amen made by all the people ) who removes but the mark whereby his neighbours lands are distinguisht ; sure a private curse may be annexed by a benefactor unto his deed of donation , in case men should rob the very lands themselves that have been once given to their mother . that such curses restraine the parliament in its lawfull undenyable rights , is ( you have told me ) but a great mistake : for though the parliament may impunè ( which in some sense is called lawfully ) take away the church lands , ( though it may doe it without punishment , because ( the king being there ) it is the highest power ) yet that court it selfe cannot do it justè , cannot doe it without sinne , and that a fouler sinne then the removing a land-marke , and then a fouler curse may follow it . let the epistler then take heed of these more then bug-beare words ; for believe it , sir , in such curses as these there is much more then showes and vizards : and if you will give trust to any stories at all , many great families and men have felt it . his last argument is ( for all the rest is but declamation ) [ aske your bishops whether church lands may not lawfully ( the law of the state not prohibiting ) be transferred from one church to another upon emergent occasions , which i thinke they will not deny : if so , who knowes that the parliament will transferre them to layhands ? they-professe no such thing , and i hope they will not , but continue them for the maintenance of the ministery . ] i conceive the bishops answer would be , that t is no sacriledge to transferre lands from one church to another : but yet there may be much rapine and injustice , the will of the dead may be violated , and so sinne enough in that action ; many may be injuriously put from their estates , in which they have as good title by the lawes of the land , as those same men that put them out . to say then the church lands may be totally given up , because the epistler hopes the parliament will commit no sacriledge , is a pretty way of perswasion , and may equally worke on him to give up his own lands , because he may as well hope to be re-estated again , in that the parliament will do no injustice . and now sir , having thus observed your commands , i should have ceased to trouble you ; yet one thing more i shall adventure to crave your patience in : and t is to let you know , that if this epistler had been right in both his conclusions , that episcopacy is not of divine institution , & that sacriledge is no sinne ; yet if you cast your eyes upon his majesties coronation oath , wherein he is so strictly sworne to defend both the episcopall order , and the church-lands and possessions , you would easily acknowledge that the king cannot yeeld to what this letter aims at , though he were in danger of no other sinne then that of perjury ▪ and though i must needs guesse that the epistler knew well of this juratory tye , yet you will the lesse blame him for a concealment of this kind , because he was not retained of the churches counsell . his majesties oath you may read published by himselfe in an answer to the lords and commons in parliament . 26. may , 1642. it runnes thus : episcopus . sir , will you grant and keepe , and by your oath confirme to the people of england , the lawes and customes to them granted by the kings of england , your lawfull and religious predecessors , and namely the lawes , customes , and franchizes granted to the clergy by the glorious king s. edward , your predecessour , according to the lawes of god , the true profession of the gospell established in this kingdome , and agreeable to the prerogative of the kings thereof , and the ancient customes of this realme ? rex . i grant and promise to keepe them . episc. sir , will you keepe peace and godly agreement entirely ( according to your power ) both to god , the holy church , the clergy , and the people ? rex . i will keepe it . episc. sir , will you ( to your power ) cause law , justice , and discretion in mercy and truth to be executed in all your judgements ? rex . i will . episc. will you grant to hold and keep the lawes and rightfull customes which the commonalty of this your kingdome have , and will you defend and uphold them , to the honour of god , so much as in you lyeth ? rex . i grant and promise so to do . then one of the bishops reads this admonition to the king , before the people , with a loud voice . our lord and king , wee beseech you to pardon and grant , & to preserve unto us , & to the churches committed to our charge , all canonicall priviledges , and due law and justice : and that you would protect and defend us , as every good king ought to be a protector and defender of the bishops and churches under his government . the king answereth , with a willing and devout heart i promise and grant my part , and that i will preserve and maintaine to you and the churches committed to your charge , all canonicall priviledges , and due law and justice : and that i will be your protector and defender to my power , by the assistance of god , as every good king in his kingdome by right ought to protect and defend the bishops and churches under his government . then the king ariseth , and is led to the communion table , where he makes a solemne oath in sight of all the people to observe the promises , and laying his hand upon the booke , saith , the oath . the things that i have before promised , i shall performe , and keep ; so helpe me god , and the contents of this booke . in the first clause t is plaine , he makes a promissory oath unto the whole people of england , ( a word that includes both nobility , and clergy , and commons ) that he will confirme their lawes and customes : and in the second paragraph thereof he sweares peculiarly to the clergy , that he will keepe the lawes , customes , and franchises granted to the clergy by the glorious king s. edward : and more plainly in the fift clause , he makes like promissory oath unto the bishops alone in the behalfe of themselves and their churches : that he will reserve and maintaine to them all canonicall priviledges , and due law and justice , and that he will be their protector and defender . where first , since he sweares defence unto the bishops by name , t is plaine , he sweares to maintain their order : for he that sweares he will take care the bishops shall be protected in such and such rights , must needs sweare to take care that bishops must first be : for their rights must needs suppose their essence . and where a king sweares defence , what can it imply but defence in a royall kingly way ? tu defende me gladio , & ego defendam te calamo , is the well known speech of an old church-man to a prince : for sure where kings sweare defence to bishops , i do not thinke they sweare to write bookes in their behalfe , or attempt to make it clear to the people that episcopacy is jure divino : but a king , whose propriety it is to beare the sword , sweares to weare it in the defence of bishops ; for though t is against the very principles of the christian faith , that religion should be planted or reformed by bloud , yet when christian kings have by law setled christian religion , and sworne to defend those persons that should preach it , he ought sure to beare his sword to defend his lawes , and to keepe his soule free from perjury . and by canonicall priviledges that belong to them and their churches , there must needs be implyed the honour of their severall orders , as that bishops should be above presbyters , &c. together with all their due rights and jurisdictions . the words , due law and justice , cannot but import that his majesty binds himselfe to see that justice be done to them and the churches , according to the law then in force when he tooke that oath . and when the king sweares protection and defence , that clause must needs reach not only to their persons , but to their rights and estates ; for he sweares not onely to men , but to men in such a condition , to bishops and their churches ; and those conditions of men grow little lesse then ridiculous , if their estates be brought to ruine ; so that such a protection were neither at all worth the asking , nor the swearing , if the king should protect a bishop in his life , and yet suffer him to be made a begger , since to see himselfe in scorne and contempt , might more trouble him then to dye . and whereas he sweares to be their protector and defender to his power by the assistance of god , these words ( to his power ) may seem to acquit him of all the rest , if he fall into a condition wherein all power seemes taken from him : but that sir will prove a mistake ; for one of the greatest powers of the king of england is in the negative in parliament ; so that without him no law can be enacted there , since t is only the power-royall that can make a law to be a law ; so that if the king should passe a statute to take away the church-lands , he protects it not to his power : since t is plaine , that so long as a man lives and speakes , he hath still power to say , no : for it cannot be said that the church in this case may be as it were ravished from the king , and that then he may be no more guilty of that sinne then lucrece was in her rape , for though a chaste body may suffer ravishment , yet the strength of a tarquin cannot possibly reach unto a mans will or his assent . now in all promissory oathes made for the benefit of that party to whom we sweare ; t is a rule with divines , that they of all others do more strictly bind , except then alone when remission is made , consensu illius cui facta est promissio . so although the king sweare unto the people of england , that he will keepe and confirme their lawes , yet if you their commons desire these said lawes , be either abrogated or altered , t is cleare that oath binds no further , because remission is made by their own consent who desired that promise from him : and upon this very ground t is true , that the king sweares to observe the lawes only in sensu composito , so long as they are lawes . but should the desire either to alter or abrogate either law or priviledges , proceed from any other , but from them alone to whose benefit he was sworne , t is cleerely plaine by the rules of all justice , that by such an act or desire his oath receives no remission : for the foundation of this promissory oath is their interest he was sworn to and it cannot therefore be remitted but by them alone for whose sake the oath was taken . so that when ( in the second paragraph of the first clause , and more plainly in the fift ) he sweares a benefit to the bishops alone , in the behalfe of them and their churches , t is apparent that this oath must perpetually bind , except a remission can be obtained from the bishops themselves , and their churches he was sworne to . this then must be confessed to be the sense of the oath , that when the king hath first sworn in generall to grant , keepe and confirme the lawes and customes of the people of england , he farther yet particularly sweares unto the clergy , to preserve their lawes and priviledges , and customes ; because since they are not able to make a negative in parliament , so that the clergy may easily be swallowed up by the people and the lords : therefore in a more particular manner they have obtained an oath to be made unto them by the king , which being for their particular benefit , it cannot be remitted without their expresse consent , so that although an act of parliament being once passed by the votes of the king and both houses , it doth sir ( as you have told me ) bind the whole people of england : yea the whole people as it includes the clergy too ; yet it concernes the king by vertue of his oath to give his vote unto no such act as shall prejudice what he hath formerly sworne unto them , except he can first obtain their expresse consent , that he may be thereby freed from his juratory obligation . it may be said perhaps that in the consent given by both houses of parliament , the consent of the clergy is tacitely implyed , and so it is , ( say our lawyers as you have told me sir ) in respect of the power obligatory , which an act so passed obtaines upon them , for they affirme that it shall as strongly bind the clergy , as if they themselves had in expresse termes consented to it . although bishops being men barred from their votes in parliament , and neither they nor their inferiour clergy having made choice of any to represent them in that great councell , their consents can in no faire sense be said to be involved in such acts as are done as well without their representative presence , as they once without their personall . but the question is , whether a tacite consent , ( though it be indeed against their expresse wils ) can have a power remissory to absolve the king from his oath ; he that affirmes it hath , must resolve to meet with this great absurdity , that although ( besides his generall oath unto the whole people of england ) his majesty be in particular sworne unto the rights . of the clergy , yet they obtaine no more benefit by this , then if he had sworn onely in generall ; which is as much as to say , that in this little draught oathes are multiplyed without necessity , nay without signification at all , and that the greater part of the first , and the whole fourth clause , are nothing else but a meere painfull draught of superfluous tautologies . for his yeelding to the two first lines swears him to keep and confirme the lawes and customes of the whole people of england ; which word ( people ) includes those of the clergy too , and therefore in generall their lawes and customes are confirmed no doubt in those words , and so confirmed that they cannot be shaken but at least by their tacite consent in a parliamentary way . but since the king condescends to afford to their rights , a more particular juratory tye , there is no doubt but it binds in a way too , that is more particular ; so that his majesty cannot expect a remission of this oath , without their consents clearely expressed : for as when the king sweares to keep the lawes of the people in general , he cannot be acquitted but by the expresse consent of the people , or by a body that represents the people , quatenus the people ▪ so that when in particular he sweares unto the lawes and customes of the clergy , this oath must needs bind until it be remitted in an expresse forme , either by the whole clergy , themselves , or by some body of men at least , that represents the clergy , quatenus the clergy , and not only as they are involved in the great body of the people , so that he that shall presume to perswade his majesty to passe an act in prejudice of this ecclesiastical body ( to whom he is thus sworn ) without their expresse consent first obtained , councels him to that which is both grosly injurious unto his fellow subjects , nay which is indeed a most damnable wickednesse against the very soule of the king . sir , as i conceive t is now plaine enough , that if the parliament should destroy the episcopall order , and take away the lands of the church ; the houses in that act would runne themselves into two sinnes , and his majesty into three ; and upon this supposition the epistler and i are agreed : [ i do not thinke ( saith he ) conveniency or necessity will excuse conscience in a thing in it selfe unlawfull ] and before that , he calls the contrary the tenet of the romanist , or jesuited puritan : onely i would beseech him for his own soules sake to consider how great a scandall he hath given to mankind , in defence of such sinnes as these . for i conceive that durand offended more in holding fornication was no sinne against the law naturall , then shechem did ( who was onely under that law ) in his lust upon old jacobs daughter , fraudem legi facere , ( saith the civilian ) is worse then legem violare , it argues a more un-subject-like disposition for a man to put tricks and quirks upon his prince his lawes , then to runne himselfe into a down-right violation : and god we know is king , i am a great king ( saith the lord of hosts ) and a king in whose hand is vengeance , malach. 1. 14. t is true sir , we are thus put into a very sad condition , when the only option that seemes left us now , is either to choose sinne or ruine ; but yet ( if well used ) t is a condition glorious ; a condition wherein all that noble army of martyrs stood , before they could come at martyrdome , and if in preparation of mind we thus lay our lives downe at the feet of christ , i am undoubtedly perswaded t is our only way to preserve them . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a93888e-940 25. h. 8. c. 19. epist. ans. epist ▪ ans. epist. ans. 2 sam. 7. act. 27. 8. mal. 3. 8. aquin. 2. 2. qu. 39. art. 1. ibid. art. 3. 〈◊〉 verum de furto . gel. l. 11. c. ●lt . l. verum . a congregational church is a catholike visible church, or, an examination of m. hudson his vindication concerning the integrality of the catholike visible church wherein also satisfaction is given to what m. cawdrey writes touching that subject, in his review of m. hooker's survey of church discipline / by samuel stone ... stone, samuel, 1602-1663. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a61677 of text r13023 in the english short title catalog (wing s5734). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 145 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 26 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a61677 wing s5734 estc r13023 12001026 ocm 12001026 52213 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a61677) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 52213) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 77:12) a congregational church is a catholike visible church, or, an examination of m. hudson his vindication concerning the integrality of the catholike visible church wherein also satisfaction is given to what m. cawdrey writes touching that subject, in his review of m. hooker's survey of church discipline / by samuel stone ... stone, samuel, 1602-1663. mather, samuel, 1626-1671. cotton, john, 1584-1652. [52] p. printed by peter cole ..., london : 1652. cawdrey's remarks on mr. hooker's survey of church discipline occur in his inconsistencies of the independent way. "to the reader" signed: samuel mather. "to my reverend dear brother, m. samuel stone" by john cotton (p. [8]) in verse. errata: p. [52]. reproduction of original in harvard university libraries. eng cawdrey, daniel, 1588-1664. -inconsistencie of the independent way. hudson, samuel, 17th cent. -vindication of the essence and unity of the church catholike visible. church polity. a61677 r13023 (wing s5734). civilwar no a congregational church is a catholike visible church. or an examination of m. hudson his vindication concerning the integrality of the cath stone, samuel 1652 25526 175 150 0 0 0 0 127 f the rate of 127 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the f category of texts with 100 or more defects per 10,000 words. 2003-02 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-03 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2003-04 rina kor sampled and proofread 2003-07 aptara rekeyed and resubmitted 2004-11 andrew kuster sampled and proofread 2004-11 andrew kuster text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-01 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a congregational church is a catholike visible church . or an examination of m. hudson his vindication concerning the integrality of the catholike visible church . wherein also satisfaction is given to what m. cawdrey writes touching that subject , in his review of m. hooker's survey of church discipline . by samuel stone , teacher to the church of christ at hartford in new-england . london , printed by peter cole , at the sign of the printing-press in cornhill , neer the royal exchange , mdclii . to the reader . in most co●troversies , though in their issues and superstructures they rise to a marvelous height , yet in the beginning and bottom ground , the difference is not great . so in this , though the differences and contests , not so much of principles , as of spirits and persons ; partly through inward corruptions and prejudices , together with the secret wrath of god for them ; and probably also , through iesuitical bellows , blowing these unhappy flames , are now grown to a woful heîght , to desperate distunces and heart burnings ; yet the foundation is in this seemingly slight logical question , an ecclesia instituta sit genus an integrum ? reverend and learned m. hudson conceives it to be totum integrale ; m. hooker to be totum universale . that this is the bottom question hence appears , that the other contrary apprehensions in church discipline , are mostly the contrary consequences and deductions flowing from these two opposite principles . nor is it strange that so great a question in divinity should border so neer upon the principles of logick ; for all the arts are nothing else but the beams and rays of the wisdom of the first being in the creatures , shining , and reflecting thence , upon the glass of man's understanding ; and as from him they come , so to him they tend : the circle of arts is a deo ad deum . hence there is an affinity and kindred of arts ( omnes artes vinculo & cognatione quadam inter se continentur ; cicer. pro arch. poet . ) which is according to the reference and subordination of their particular ends , to the utmost and last end : one makes use of another , one serves to another , till they all reach and return to him , as rivers to the sea , whence they flow . now logick is of most general use . divinity . ratione finis ; for it is the universal end of all : physica ratione {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ; for every art riseth here : but logick ratione {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ; is most general ; there is no art but useth the help of logick ; nothing can shew it self to the eye of the mind of man , but in this light . hence mistakes in logick are not unusual in writers upon this subject . a man cannot apprehend m. hooker's double consideration of the church , as totum essentiale & organicum ; nor why as totum essentiale it is ecclesia prima , if he do not know genus and integrum and argumentum primum and ortum in logick ; nor judge his method to be other then leaping , if he do not know the method of the first part of logick . nor will his proving that christ gave the keys to a visible church , entitle the church of boston , or any other church to them , unless it be also proved , that the visible church is a genus , and that every individual church , as that of boston , is a species or part of this genus : nor will it ever appear whether the visible church be genus or integrum , till it appear what genus and integrum be . hence the first part of this discourse is taken up in clearing the nature of these and other logical notions : which cannot but be needful in this question , review , c. for m. cawdry was long troubled before he could find out m. 2. pag. 64. hooker's meaning , when he saith totum essentiale , not explaining it ; though upon serious observation he found it . the reader needs not be puzzled hereafter in that kinde , the explication is here done to his hand . and here by the way i am to advertise the reader that the publishing of this discourse may perhaps be a supersedias to any further labours , in answer to that reverend divine . his review glanceth at some passages , not alwaies at the main and most material ; when he shall strike at m. hooker's whole frame and principles , he may receive an answer {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} : mean while this may suffice , meeting ( though in pursuance of m. hudson ) with what seemes most material in the review . the second part of this discourse iuproving and applying the grounds laid in the former to m. hudson's discourse , would be wel attended by the reader . thou canst not judge aright till thou hast read the whole . if any shall attempt a reply , let me desire him to imitate this , which may be a patterne for all discourses of this nature in clearness , and succinctness , and close pursuing the point in hand , without distastful reflections and diversions from things to men . many polemical writers are so filled with oddpangs of their spirits , as causeth a secret kind of disrelishment and offence to the readers . the author hereof is one who sees about him , understands the principles and grounds he goes upon , and therefore knowes what he saith . his relation to m. hooker ( being teacher of the same church ) together with his personal abilities , caused many to judge him most meet to do this office of love to him and truth , but the fulness of his imployments , in his constant preaching , and other ways , was a sufficient plea of excuse in his judgement in his not rendring an answer to m. hudson's book ; yet upon the earnest desire of a friend ( who was then engaged for a voyage to england ) to have a few lines from him touching tho nature of a catholike visible church ( that being the first and main question betwixth m. hooker and m. hudson ; viz. what totum the visible catholike church is ) he was induced to promise , that if he might but have a fortnight free from other service , he would ( to satisfie the desire of his friend ) send after him some notes upon that subject ; which accordingly was performed by him , and is done accurately and strongly , though briefly , as the streights of time allotted him would permit . it was in his thoughts to have given some larger explication concerning the nature and distinction of the church , in such propositions as these . prop. i. the church considered as the subject of application , ( where it is first to be attended ) is the seed of christ . as the seed of adam is the subject of propagation , to whom his transgression is extended ; so the seed of the second adam are the proper subject of redemption , to whom it is applyed by his spirit , isa. 53. 10. prop. ii. the church is either militant or tryumphant . prop. iii. the militant church is the number of those to whom christ is applyed but in part , which is therefore wrestling with her spiritual enemies . prop. iv. the militant church is mingled with tares , i. e. with such who only seem to be the seed of christ , mat. 23. 24. to 31. and vers. 37. prop. v. the militant church mingled with tares , is distinguished into congregations , and is therefore accomodated with the rule of ecclesiastical policie , ephes. 2. 12. prop. vi . the word church used in the new testament , suits most exactly with a congregational political visible church . prop. vii . the political visible church is distinguished in respect of the times thereof . it was first in a family , then in a nation , lastly among al nations . prop. viii . the political visible church among all nations , is properly called a catholike visible church . it was also in his purpose , had there been time , to have given some reasons of his dissent from m. hudson's apprehension , concerning the visible ●eadship of christ . it is most true , that christ is head of the church as god-man : it is also true , that christ is visible according to his humane nature ; but that is not conceived sufficient to render him the visible head of the visible church . christ is head of the invisible church as god-man ; christ god-man is monarch of the world . but he is not the visible head of the invisible church , nor the visible monarch of the world . christ hath a more special influence into his church by his spirit , but his spirit is invisible . every invisible member of christ in the world , is not a visible member , yet every invisible member is a visible man . i am sorry to stay thee any longer in the porch ; only there are three sad hindrances of light in these points 1. pride . 2. wisdom . 3. prejudice . let me therefore leave upon thy heart three words of advice , if ever thou wouldst see the beauty of the lord in his temple , and the way of his house , or get the blessing and good of this , or any other good help for that end . 1. to be much in humiliation . it is a most remarkable passage of ezekiel 43. 10. if they be ashamed of all that they have done , shew them the house , the fashion and forms thereof , all the ordinances and laws thereof , &c. oh take heed there be not some unmortified unlamented secret lust to darken thine eyes from seeing these blessed truths of god . dues ineffabili lege spargit poenales caecitates super illicitas cupiditates ( august . confess . ) it would make one ●remble to see how dreadful the revenges of god whether for personal pollutions or for sinful compliances with the former devices and ways of men in the things of his house , or for secret contempt of the simplicity and power of the gospsl , are gone forth in penal blindnesses and other blasting strokes upon the souls of some in these times : they that will not see the visions of their own hearts , and of the secret distempers , and sins , and plagues there , mourning also for them ; god will not let them see the visions of himself , and of his power and glory in his sanctuary ; they shall ask the way to sion weeping , jer. 50. 4 , 5. going , and weeping as they go . 2. be not over wise , plainly thus ; seek not to accomodate the government of the church to the wisdom and policy of civil governments amongst men . we see that crookning the gospel to the unpurged relicks of the wisdom of nature , hath been the ancient plague and seduction of arminians ; let not the same distemper pervert thy tho●ghts in this matter . to conceive there are some reserved cases for christ himself to come in almightily by his owne especial guidance , to over-rule in particular congregations , as he hath done in that way of advice ; why is not this as safe , as to place the help in appeals and classical subordinations , where the same objection returns at last as strong as ever : for if the national or general councel wrong a man , as they have often done , there is no relief for him upon earth . that that 's useful in civil courts and iudicatories , as appeals may be , is ever hurtful and pernicious in church discipline , if not commanded by christ , but prudentially taken up . 3. beware of prejudices against the way and works of god . 1. against the way , therefore i make the same request with bucer in bucer contr. latom. another case , ut pari studio legas utriusque partis scripta . m. brightman conceives from . rev. 17. 3. that some faithful ones in a wilderness shall make the most full discovery of the mysterie of iniquity in all its abominations ; clariorem adhuc lucem solitudo dabit , haud veniet●e deserto nova ignominia &c. which words might have been lookt upon as tr●fles , had they dropt from some idle pen , but not from his . it is certain , the practise of the churches in new-england gives light enough to clear the congregational way from the most of those misprisions and injurious misrepresentations that ar● cast upon it . their consultation synod in the opinion time , was blest of god for their conviction , and clearing the country of them , no lesser then if the synod had assumed the highest jurisdiction . the mischievous consequences and sad effects which are alledged , are either meer mistakes and misreports in matter of fact , or fallaciae non causae pro causa . they rise not from the congregational principles . either come ●nprejudiced in thy inquiries and searches after truth , or thou wilt never find it . 2. against the works of god , which do certainly speak somthing both in england and scotland to such as have hearing hearts , and are not espoused to any interest . how precious the liberties of his people are to him , who hath bought them with his own blood , hath never been more abundantly and eminently discovered then in the dreadful changes and revolutions of providence in these nations , and in these days wherein we live . the lord iesus is of late gone forth into the world , with jealousie for sion , and with a great jealousie for jerusalem , to still the enemy , and the avenger , to vindicate the cause and controversie of his people , and to break the yokes of her oppressors , that the virgin of israel may return to sion , and be adorned with her timbrels as in the days of old . this is the desirgne he hath in hand . and rather then men shall hinder him when he is on his way and upon the wing in his travels of love and glory to his people , he is pleased we see to break the mountaines in peeces when they stand in the way of his revenge and holiness , and to bath his sword in the blood of heathen , even of professing people . the father of light enlighten and enable all the saints to close with him , both in the way of his worship , and in the way of his works . samuel mather . to my reverend dear brother , m. samuel stone , teacher of the church at hartford . how well ( dear brother ) art thou called stone ? as sometimes christ did simon cephas own . a stone for solid firmness , fit to rear a part in ztons wall : and it upbear . like stone of bohan , bounds fit to describe , 'twixt church and church , as that 'twixt tribe and tribe . like samuel's stone , erst eben-ezer hight ; to tell the lord hath helpt us with his might . like stone in davids sling , the head to wound of that huge giant-church , ( so far renownd ) hight at the church-catholike , oecumenical , or at the lowest compass , national ; yet poteck , visible , and of such a fashion , as may or rule a world or rule a nation . which though it be cry'd up unto the skys , by philist●ms and isralites likewise ; yet seems to me to be too neer a kin unto the kingdom of the man of sin : in frame , and state , and constitution , like to the first beast in the revelation . which was as large as roman empire wide , and ruled rome , and all the world beside . go on ( good brother ) gird thy sword with might , fight the lord's battels , plead his churches right . to brother hooker , thou art next a kin , by office-right thou must his pledge redeem . take thou the double portion of his spirit , run on his race , and then his crown inherit . now is the time when church is militant , time hast'neth fast when it shall be tryumphant . john cotton . a congregational church , is a catholike visible church . in this disquisition i shall attend two things ; first , the explication of some rules concerning genus , or totum genericum . secondly , the application of those rules to the question in hand . in the explication , i shall labour briefly to open the fundamental rules concerning genus and species ; and then build some conclusions upon those foundations , or deduce some consectaries from those principles . in the application , i shall return some answer to m. hudson's arguments contained in his fourth chapter ; and also propound some reasons tending to demonstrate , that a congregational church is a catholike church . chapter i. concerning the definition of genus and species . genus est totum partibus essentiale . the general , or the kind , or the general kind , is a whole essentia ! to the parts . aristotle saith , it is that which is one and the same in more : that is , in more species . he hath other expressions to the same purpose ; viz. that , the genus is that , whereby those that differ are the same according to essence ; that is , have community of essence : which is the same in substance with this definition which i have here propounded ; viz. that genus is a whole essential to his parts . there is another definition of genus , which aristotle gives , and his followers have received from him , which m. hudson hath taken up ; viz ▪ genus est totum quod de pluribus specie differentibus , potest praedicari in quid ; or affirmari in qu●stione , quid est . that is , the genus is a whole , which may be predicated or affirmed of more things differing in special kind , in the question , what is it ? it is said to be predicated in quid , because when the question is , what is the species ? the genus then must be predicated of it , in answer to it : as when the question is , what is homo ? what is man ? the answer must be , animal , a living creature . this last definition is not exact ; first , because genus containeth not the whole quiddity of the thing : for when this answer is given , man is a living creature ; there is yet no difference appearing between him and a beast ; a beast is a living creature : and the question yet remaineth what living creature he is . secondly , it is the proper office of the definition , to explicate the quiddity of a thing , and shew what it is . definitio est cum ex●licatur quid r●s sit : when the utmost bounds of the essence of a thing are laid forth , it is then distinguished from all other things . thirdly , there may be genus where no question is made . we shall speak somwhat briefly , tending to open the true definition of genus . in which we may consider , first , the thing defined ; secondly , the definition . the thing desired is genus ] the kind or general . the word firstly and properly signifieth a stock , linage , parentage , kindred , or family . genus is used in this signification in acts 4. 6. where {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} is translated ( and properly ) kindred : and as many as were of the kindred of the high priest . phil. 3. 5. paul was {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ▪ of the stock of israel . here it is taken for kind , community of nature and essence ; as animal is the gen●● of man and beast ; because the essence of living creature is common to both . the word is translated from families hither , by reason of similitude ; because as parents are causes of their children , so genus is of his species . and because those that are born in the same family , and are of the same house , stock or kindred , have all things in common between themselves , as names , sirnames , priviledges , &c. so in like manner species have a like nature in common between them ; as socrates and plato . the definition is est totum partibus essentiale . genus est ] genus is ; that is , it exists extra intellectum , without the understanding ; there are universals as well as singulars , and common nature as well as special . there is a generality , universality , and community , and common nature of things , me non cogitante . our understanding doth not give being to genus , but it is extant , and in print in rerum natura , whether we observe it or not . totum ] a whole . this is the general nature of it , wherein it agreeth with integrum . it is totum , a whole , because it is distributed into parts , and is the container of the parts . it is true , that there is more in the species then in the genus ; yet the genus holds them together : all the parts are held together in the whole , as in the common head to which they are reduced . they all agree and meet together in the genus , in one common matter , and a common form , as in one point or center . as animality is a common vinculum and bond ▪ containing and comprehending man and beast ; they cannot but agree in that common nature , and so far they must needs agree one with another ; that bond will bind them and hold them together while they have any existence or being in the world . there will be kindred and community of nature between homo and brutum , while the world stands . essentiale ] it is a totum which gives essence : herein it is opposed to integrum , for there the parts did give essence ▪ matter , and form to the integrum . we must not conceive that genus gives his community , generality , or universality to his species ; nor that it gives to the species all that they have : there is more in the species then is in the genus ; therefore the whole essence of the species is not in the genus . homo hath a special form , which animal hath not ; homo est animal rationale : here is somthing in man besides his animality , which is added to it . it is true in this respect , plus est in specie quàm in genere ; yet genus is totum essentiale ; because it symbolically containeth the causes of the species , and species answerably the effects of the genus . genus is not a c●usarum essential●um commnnium ; and imitates exactly the nature of those causes : as an essential cause argueth his effect , so genus argueth his species . hence . 1. genus gives esse to his species , as every cause to his effect : the species had never been , if it had not been for genus : sublato genere , tollitur species , take away animal , and homo will not be ; there will be no man in the world . homo gives being to socrates , and socrates will not be , cannot be without homo : and as rachel said , give me children , or else i dy ; so genus saith , give me species , or else i dy . posito genere , necessariò ponitur aliqua species . if homo be in the world , there will be iohn , thomas , or some other individuals or species of that kind . 2. the genus communicates matter and form to his parts ; as the parts did give matter and form to the integrum so the genus gives matter and form to the species ; because it is a note of the common essential causes , which are matter and form ; it therefore gives matter and common form to the species . 3. the genus communicates his whole essence to his species , his whole matter and form : though it doth not bestow upon the species all which they have , yet it is so free-hearted , that it bestoweth his whole essence and nature , and all that it hath within it self , upon the species : hence the whole essence of the genus is in the species , his whole matter and form ; as whole animality the whole matter and form of living creature is in homine & bruto ▪ in man and beast . there is nothing in the genus ( besides his universality ) which is not in the species . humanity with his whole matter and form is in socrates and plato . 4. the genus communicates the same essence to all his species . it is a note of the common essential causes , and therefore imparts it self impartially and equally to every one of his species , is common to all , all have one and the same common nature in them . the same common humane nature is in socra●es , plato , and all individuals . parubus essentiale ] essential to its parts ; totum est majus qualibet su● part● ; the whole containeth the single parts , as greater then any one of them , but containeth all , as being equal to them . there is no totum consisting of one part ; though the entire nature of the genus be in every species , yet not the universal nature : totum genus , non est nisi in cunctis speciebus ; one species cannot make up a genus : animal was not made up compleat , and perfect , till homo was created . we have finished the explication of the definition of genus , the kind ; and have heard how kind it is ( if i may so speak ) to all his species : we must now declare briefly what respect species beareth to genus in taking his part . species est pars generis ] the species is a part of its kind ; the special is a part of the general . species ] of the old verb sp●cie , to see or behold : it signifieth properly the ●utward face . countenance , or a sight ( non tulit hanc speciem , he could not abide to see that sight ) a thing seen or looked upon . graece , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , & {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , of {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , video , to see : it signifieth a visible shape , fashion , shew , appearance , image , or representation ; {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the fashion of his count●nance was altered ; luke 9. 29. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ▪ neither have ye seen his shape . joh. 5. 29. the same word is translated appearance , 1 thes. 5. 22. the reason of the name is , because the genus is seen in the species , in them it appeareth and sheweth his face . species est ] the species is ; that is , really existing in nature . the genus subs●sts in his species , and no where else ; it is no where else to be seen or found : homo is not to be seen but in socrates , or plato , alexander , or some other individuals which are his sp●cies . the genus being granted , doth necessarily imply the existence of the species . pars ] a part is that which is contained of the whole ; it is he●d together with some other part by the genus , and hath alwaies some fellow or other : for the genus cannot be divided into one part , but into several par●s ▪ a species is but one piece of it . if genus be the whole , a species is a part ; if animal be the whole , homo is a part . pars generis ] non integri : hereby it is distinguished from membrum , for that respects the integral , but species stands in reference to the genus , and participates of his essence , together with other species . aristotle gives the same definition of it . cicero saith , it is pars quae generi subest : it is pars generis subjectiva , sub icitur generi in ordine & gradu descensionis . as man and beast are comprehended under animal , as inferiour to animal contained under that head : animal is before homo , and above him in order of nature ; those species , viz. homo and brutum are cast under animal , as a more general head of beings . 2. the species is subject to the genus in predication ; make an axiome of genus and species , and we shall see the species to be the subject more often then the genus ; as homo est animal , socrates est homo . chapter ii. concerning the distribution of genus and species . genus est generalissimum aut subalternum ] the genus is most general , or subalterne . the species is subalterne , or most special , the genus is distributed into two kinds ; most general , and subordinate : the species is also divided into two kinds ; intermediate , or most special . god hath ranked things in order , that there is a subordination of things one to another , and one under another . there must be extreams on either side , somthing highest , somthing lowest ; a most general , and a most special ; and some between both . the subalterne genus and species , as they stand in respect to their superiours , they are species ; as they respect their inferiours , they are kinds , or generalls : that is , they receive their essence from their superiours , and communicate it to their inferiours . as man receiveth his essence from animal , a living creature , and therefore is said to be his species : and again he communicates his essence with singular men ; whence he is called their genus . the highest genus is most general ; the lowest species is most special ; the intermediate kinds , which come between these , are the genus of their inferiours and the species of their superiours ; which by reason of this vicissitude and changing , by courses and turns , are called subalterne , genus generalissimum est cujus nullum est genus . the most general genus is that of which there is no genus . genus generalissimum ] the most general genus ( which in greek is called {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the most general , and the first ) it is that which hath none more general going before it , but is the prime and first genus of all . it is called the most general kind , because it is the supream and highest kind , which never descends , but always keepes the highest ranke , and can be nothing but genus . subalternum genus is not onely and always genus ; bu●generalissimum is only and always genus . genus generalissimum est ] there is a most general genus , est enim quoddam in suo genere in qualibet arte supremum , there is somthing which is highest in every art ; as argument in invention . look also how many arts there are , so many supream kinds there are . if god hath ordered and disposed things by certain degrees one above another , there must be somthing supream and highest , which is the most general kind . cujus nullum est genus ] of which there is no genus : this being the highest , hath no genus above it , and therefore hath no genus at all , and in never species . it is supremum in suo genere non datur processus in infinitum , there cannot be an infinite motion and procession in creatures ; ergo standum est in aliquo primo : we must rest in some first , and highest thing . art in general is the genus of all the special arts ; and ens the most general genus of all beings . the subaltern genus , as also the subaltern species , is that which is the species of one , but the genus of another . all things comming between the supream genus , & species infima , are subalternal kinds and species . this is the forme of subaltern genus and species ; to be genus in respect of inferiours , and species in respect of superiour , and higher things : the same thing cannot be a species in respect of superiour and inferior , no more the alexander can be son and father to the same philip ; subalternum genus & speci●s may be the same , differing only in a respect ; and therefore one definition may serve both : genus potest esse species , quia potest esse pars generis ; it may be a part of a genus which is above it ; and species may be genus , because it may be totum partibus essentiale to his inferiours which are under it . cause is a species to argumentum absolute consentaneum , but a genus to matter and forme . species specialissima est , quae est individ●a in ●lias species . ] the most special species is that which cannot be divided into other species . species specialissima ] the most special , the lowest species . est ] is ; est enim quoddam infimum in natura ; there is somthing lowest : as there is a highest , above which we cannot ascend ; so there is a lowest , beneath which we cannot descend . we must proceed from the highest by the intermediate , to the lowest , and there rest . qui est individua in alias species ] which cannot be divided into other species ] we may divide it into members , but we cannot divide it into any lower species : there cannot be lower then the lowest . as genus generalissimum hath no genus above it ; so species specialissima hath no species under it ; it is perpetually a species , and never a genus : it always takes his essence from his superiours , but never communicates it with inferiours ; because it hath nothing beneath it , into which it may be distributed . singular men take their essence from homo as their genus , but never communicate it to inferiours ; for there is nothing inferiour to those singulars . thus this singular matter , and this singular form are most special species● : and socrates , plato , and all individual men , are most special spe●ies ; which is individual into other species . this is that which is commonly called individuum , an individual . that every individual is a species , i shall labour to demonstrate when we come to the consectaries . to make way for this especially , i have touched briefly upon the distribution of genus and species in this chapter . chapter iii. wherein is propounded certain corollaries , or consectaries , deduced and flowing from the explication of genus and species . first from the explication of genus , there is a double consectary . that genus doth partly agree with integrum , and partly dissent from it . it agrees with it , because it is totum ; it dissents from it , because it is totum partibus essentiale . first we shall therefore speak to their agreement in several conclusions . the first conclusion concerning the agreement of totum universale , and totum integrale , totum universale , & totum integrale , the universal , and integral whole , are both immutable in actu signato ( if i may so speak ) and mutable in actu exercito : they are both signed with an immutable and unchangeable rule and definition ; but are changeable in the particulars . the english is , the rules concerning these are eternal and immutable ; but the special examples are mutable , fluxile and variable . here mr hudson is mistaken , for he makes immutability an affection of genus ; and mutability a property of integrum . his words ( p. 81. ) are , that totum which is mutable and fluxile , is an integrum ; for a genus is immutable , constant , permanent , 〈◊〉 veritatis . answer , it is true that genus is immutable in actu signato ; and it is as true , that integrum is immutable , constant , permanent , aeternae veritatis . for every rule of art is eternally true , and without possibility of being false ; being all the rules of the eternal wisdom of the first being . genus est totum partibus essentiale , is an eternal immutable rule : int●grum est totum ●ui partes sunt essentiales , is likewise an eternal and standing rule , incapable of mutation . the rules concerning mutable things are immutable . i cannot concur with m●hudson ( p. 79. ) in his definition of totum integrale . his words are these . quod habet partes extra partes est totum integrale , sed ecclesia visibilis universalis ●abet par●es extra partes , ergo . the major is the very definition of totum integrale . answ. how can that be the very definition of totum int●grale , when genus ●abet partes extra partes ? socrates , plato , paul , &c. are species , and therefore partes ●●minis , and yet are not one within another , but different one from another . but take any example of genus or integrum , and both are mutable ; for all kinds of things in this inferiour world are mutable those kinds of things that live a springing life are corruptible ; and so are those kindes of beings which live the life of sense . the whole kind of trees , and the whole kind of brute beasts shall utterly perish at the last . in this respect totum genus plantarum & brutorum , are mutable and fluxile . man is now of a shorter life then he was before the flood ; i speak of man as genus hominum , of man in general . hence that rule which mr hudson propounds is not true , viz. that totum which is mutable and fluxile , is an integral . for tree-kind and brutekind are mutable and fluxile , and yet neither of them is an integral , but each of them is a genus . conclusion ii. totum genericum & integrale are both of them argumenta o●ta : arguments arising and springing from the first as their root ; being derived from thence , as streams from their fountain , and children from their parents , ; resembling and representing their nature . they are as the image and shadow of the first , symbolically , tacitely , and secretly comprehending the prints and footsteps of those first arguments , wearing their badge and livery . these having the force of the first communicated to them , argue as they in respect of their force and affection of arguing , but in a new way and manner , as second notions at the second hand : look what force the cause hath to argue its effect , the same force hath an argument arising from the cause to argue the symbol of the effect . as the matter and forme argue their effect , so the members argue the integrum . hence it apears , that genus is not causa materialis , as mr hudson pag. 78. judgeth ; for this he speaks of it ; as it doth exist in the individual , it is causa materialis individui . answ. genus is not causa materialis , or materia ; for that is a first argument deriving this force of arguing from no other . it is symbolum materiae ; not as it relates to genus ( as mr hudson there speaks ) but as genus : for genus relates not genus . 2. hence it also appears , that mr hudson pag. 78. is mistaken in conceiving that the genus only is a second notion , and that thereby it is distinguished from the integral . the genus being a second notion : and also in the same page , but universality is of another nature , being an abstract second notion , answ. it is true , genus is a second notion ; but it is not thereby distinguished from integrum ; for that is a second notion , arising from some first ●rgu●●ent . conclusion iii. genus and integrum are both capable of admission and ejection of parts . that is not a true rule which mr hudson pag. 81. propounds . that totum whereunto there is admission , wherein there is nutrition and edification , and out of which there is ejection , that is an integral : his meaning is , it is not genus . answ. that totum may be a genus ; for animal admitted beast and man at the first under his wing : when a man is born and admitted into the world , he is admitted into mankind : when an individual lyon comes into the world , he is admitted into lyon-kind : when bucephalu● was foaled , he was admitted genus equorum , and was nourished , &c. and when he dyed , he was ejected and cast out of that kind : when an individual lyon dyes , he is excommunicated from lyon-kind . all beasts at the last shall be excommunicated , and cast out of the society of animal , a living creature . when a scholler is admitted into a colledge and university , he is admitted into a new kind of society , where he is nourished and edified in good literature : when he is expelled from thence , he is cast out of that kind of society . the reason is , because there is no individual integral corporation or society , but is of some kind or other . conclusion iiii. there is a reciprocation between the whole and the parts . although the parts are not the whole , yet they are adaequate and equal to the whole . this rule belongs to distribution and definition ; in quâ utraque affectio reciprocationis est , illic partium omnium cum toto , hîc definitionis cum definito . the whole contains just as much as the parts , and the definition as the definite : & contrà partes simul sumptae , are equal to the whole , neither more nor less ; they will reach as far as the whole , and no farther ; and the whole will extend it self as far as all the parts , and no farther . they are like vessels holding the same measure , of equal latitude and extent , one as large as the other ; as two pints , and a quart . having the whole , you have all the parts ; and having the parts you have the whole . omnis divisio debet exhaurire totum divisum . but one part alone is narrower , and reacheth not so far as the whole : this reciprocation is partium omnium cum toto ; not of any one . for if one part alone were equal to the whole , all the parts together were greater then the whole . but that is a clear standing everlasting rule , that the whole is greater then the part ; that is , then any one part . and this being a property of totum , as such , is true of totam universale , and integrale . 1. of totum universale . the genus is greater then any any one species ; homo is greater or larger then socrates ; and animal larger then homo . the totum genus , the whole genus is not in every part or species ; the generality or universality of the genus , is not in every species ; humanity universally considered in the whole latitude and extent of it , is not in socrates . the reason is , because genus is totum a whole ; and species est pars generis : the sp●cies is but a part of the genus . genus gives it self to be divided among all his species , but gives not it self wholy and altogether to any one species . it is a whole containing many or several parts , and is not wholy or universally in one part or species . there is but a part of the genus in one species ; and therefore when we say socrates est homo , socrates is a man ; we mean not that he alone is a man : for then socrates should be genus , giving and communicating essence to his species , which cannot be : tota humanitas & universa , all humanity universally considered , is not in socrates : for part of humanity is in plato , &c. it is proper to genus to be totum universale , this cannot belong to any part : the genus is of larger and wider extent then any one species ; animal extends it self beyond brutum , and comprehends homo also within its compass . quest . when brutum was made , and not homo ; where was animal ? when brute beasts were made , and not man ; where was living creature . answ. animal , living creature , that genus or kind was still in making , and not perfect till homo was made , 2. it is as true of totum integrale ; all the members are equal to the whole , but not any one . hence an integrum , an entire thing , cannot have his whole integral entire nature preserved in one part or member . mr hudson affirmeth , that the catholike integral church , i. e. the church catholike , which he affirmes to be an integral , may be brought into a narrow room , and haply to one congregation ; it is possible : ( saith he in p. 88. ) yet all the essence and priviledges of the church catholick visible , are contracted and reserved therein . this position is as cross to reason , as that one is two or three ; integrum cannot be made of one member ; for all the members give essence , and being to the in●egral . a part , cannot be the whole ; the eye cannot be the whole body ; 1 cor. 12 , 17. if the whole body were an eye , where were the hearing ? if the whole body were hearing , where were the smelling ? v. 18. but now , god hath disposed the members every one of them in the body , at his own pleasure . v. 19. for if they were all one members , where were the body ? v. 20. but now are there many members , but one body . a mutilated , and maimed body , cannot be a perfect and entire body . m. hudson will not affirm that a city may be preserved entire in one members ; for a city contains many citizens : there cannot be {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , of {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ; multus , where there is but one man . m. hudson consents to this , that the nature of a flock is not reserved in one sheep ; or a corporation in one man ; or that a swarm of bees cannot be in one bee . integrum is not made of one member , as m. hooker chap. 15. pag. 26. speaks . i wonder to what end m. hudson speaks of a flock and a sheep ; which are integrum and membra ; when he would shew that the whole nature of the genus is not in una specie . conclusion v. genus and integrum are both existing , and measurable by time and place . i find m. hudson clearly and fully expressing his judgement , that genus doth not exist , and that it is not measurable by time and place : i shall present some of his expressions concerning this business , to the reader ; viz. in page 78. he saith , universality is of another nature , being an abstract second notion . and again in the same page he hath these words ; genus being a second notion , existeth not ; but in intellectu nostro : habet fundamentum in rebus , non existentiam ; for as it doth exist , it is an integral , and loseth his abstract nature , wherein the universality doth consist . and again in page 88. genus is a notion not existing . i shall name but one place more , in page 81. where he expresseth himself in these words ; that totum which is measured by time and place , is an integral ; for genus which is a notion , is capable of neither of them . by which , &c. it appears , that m. hudson apprehends that this is one main difference between genus and integrum : that genus is a notion not existing , nor measurable by time and place ; but integrum exists , and is measured by time and place . answ. i conceive and affirm , that both of them ( genus as well as integrum ) are existing things , measured by time and place ; and that both of them shew their faces in rerum naturâ ; and that the understanding finds neither of them lurking or lying hid in the bottomless pit of non existence . the existence of integrum is so palpable and plain , that m. hudson hath no scruple about it , suspects it not in the least measure , but gives in his clear testimony concerning the existence of it ; that he hath seen it standing out from all his causes , and that time and place have taken measure of it , or at least are able to do it ; he affirms that it is measurable by both . only i conceive that he offers some wrong and indignity to genus , to deny it the same priviledge . we shall therefore plead , ( so far as the laws of logick , and ancienstatutes of reason will give in evidence for us ) and labour to demonstrate , that existence is a priviledge duly belonging to genus ; and that he cannot be denyed it in the court of argumentation , without the violation of the rule● of reason . in the touching or handling this cause , we shall speak some things , first , by way of explication ; secondly , by way of confirmation of the truth . the question being stated , we shall give the explication in several propositions . proposition i. second notions are as real as first notions : argumenta orta are as real as prima : arising arguments are as real , true existing things , as the very first arguments from whence they arise ; and have as real a being and entity as they . adam was the first man , but all his sons are true men as well as himself : so those arguments which arise and spring from the first , as their ancestors or predecessors , are real things or beings , as well as their parents , from which they descend . those which some call nominal ( because the force of arguing is in the name ) yet have a reality in them , and are not meer fictions ; but here the force of arguing lieth in the things themselves . definition is not a first argument , but is beholding to the first arguments for his birth , nativity , and breeding ; and hath derived his whole existence and being from them ; and yet is not a meer notion , crept into the understanding of man , before it was duely entred and enrolled into the artificial fabrick of reason ; which is one of those vestigia and impressions which the first being hath left behind him . those who read in the great book of the world , and turn over those leaves and volumes , may find the explication of the quiddity , and being of things , or the bounds of their being unfolded ; which is nothing else , but their definition . e. gr. homo est animal rationale , a man is a reasonable creature : this is the definition of man . men and angels could never make this to be the definition of man , but find it made before their eyes ; they gather it up with the hands of their understandings ; which they could never have gathered , if there had been no such fruit growing in the garden of nature , or in artificio rei . totum integrale is listed in the number of arising arguments , being a symbol of the effect : and yet is never so much as charged or accused by m. hudson , or any other ( that i have heard ) for non-reality or non-existence . we have gained thus much already in pleading the cause of genus , that his ortive or derivative nature is no prejudice at all to his real being , and existence . we cannot deny , but that the impressions of other second notions , have been extant many thousands , of years ; and what reason have we ( if we desire to deal impartially ) to say , that genus is not extant , because it is a second notion ? for my part , i cannot deny but that it is come abroad in the world , as the impression of the first being , who is author , entium & ar●ium , unless i had some spleen against this more then against other second notions ; to which this ( if it may have its right ) is not inferiour . proposition ii. abstractio vel ' {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} est sejunctio {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . the abstraction of the {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , is that whereby the understanding can seperate , and sever the arts one from another , that are confounded in the {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ; which is opus motu ●rtis factum . as a geometrician can take magnitude ( length , breadth and thickness ) from a body in conceit ; that is , he can understand those dimensions which are found only in m●terial things , not considering or looking at the matter . this abstraction is common to all arts , there is the impression of all arts in the things ; and one may abstract the workmanship of one art from the workmanship of another art . as suppose seven artificers have bin at work in building a ship ; the carpenter , smith , glasier , &c. a man by his understanding may sever the work of the glasier , or the work of the smith , from the work of the carpenter , &c. the first being ( having all arts in himself ) hath left an impression of them in the frame and building of the world ; and here a man by his understanding may sever the fabrick of one art from another . when a man looks upon a tree , by the eye of logick , he may abstract , and draw away the artificium logicum from it ; he looks upon it as bringing forth fruit ; and in that respect he sees a cause and effect there ; as it is of such a colour or quantity , he sees a subject there ; as it is placed in such an orchard , he sees it as an adjunct ; as it containes root , body , and branches , he finds integrum and membra there ; as it is a vine , fig-tree &c. he finds genus and species there , &c. the phylosopher looks at the artificum physicum : the grammarian looks at the word , &c. the arichmetician at the number , &c. this abstraction is nothing but severing the work and artifice of one art from that of another , in my understanding ; not considering the other frames that are there growing together with it . as there is an abstraction of the work of one art from the work of another ; so there is also an abstraction of some part or piece of the work of one art , from other parts and pieces of the work of the same art growing together with it in the same frame . one may abstract the workmanship of a carpenter appearing in the frame of the windowes made by him , and look upon that piece of his art , without consideration of the rest of the building , or any other part of it . so here i can abstract the consenting , arguments from the rest in my consideration , or i can leave them , and consider the arising arguguments ; as the genus , definition , &c. and this abstraction is not a real separation of those arguments and affections from the things , but only a mental separation , whereby a man sees a thing distinct from another , and looks upon it alone distinctly . i can consider the nature of a thing in the abstract , that never subsists by it self but in the concrete . as i can take colour from a body coloured ( although no colour can subsist alone by it self ) and consider that quality alone by it self in its own nature , without consideration of the subject , in which this quality is inherent . so likewise we may abstract moysture from the ayre , and consider it only in its own nature , as a quality whereby a thing is ready to flow out of its own bounds , and to take the figure of another thing . lastly , thus we may abstract humanity from socrates , plato , &c. and conceive the idea of it in our minds , without the consideration of socrates , plato , &c. proposition iii. the abstraction of a logical notion from the thing , is no prejudice to its existence : when a man by the rule of g●ometry abstracts magnitude from a body , in his mind ; it followes not from hence , that there is no magnitude existing in bodies ; i can abstract moysture from the ayr , and consider it abstractively and sejurctively in its own ●ature ; and yet there is moysture really existing in nature . proposition iiii. the abstraction of genus , or the general universal nature of things , from the things themselv●s , by mental consideration ; is no argument to demonstrate the non-existence of genus and universals in rerum naturâ . the abstraction of heat from fire , or dryness from the earth , or a colour from a boby coloured , i. e. the consideration of any of these in their own distinct nature , is no evidence that these things are not really existing in nature ; so likewise , the abstraction of genus and universality , is no evidence against their real existence and being in nature ; but a good argument ( as we shall perceive presently ) of their real entity , and that they are extant in rerum naturâ . is there no colour really existing , because i can abstract it ? the universality of things doth not consist in their abstract nature ( as m. hudson p. 78. conceives ) as the quantity and quality of things consist not in their abstract natures ; that is , they are not so , because i discerne them ; but they are existing , and therefore i discerne them . i know not the reason why mr hudson should call the nature of things , their abstract nature : for the nature of things is the same , when they are not abstracted and discerned , and when they are taken into consideration by our understanding . colours are the same seen or unseen : our apprehension cannot change the nature and property of things . i cannot assent to that notion of mr hudson p. 78. that as the genus exists , it loseth his abstract nature ; for by that reason , nothing existing could be abstracted . i can consider the nature and definition of integrum , without the consideration of this or that integral ; and yet mr hudson confesseth , that integrum is always existing . proposition v. the subsistence of universals in singulars , is no argument of their non-existence , universals are subsistent in singulars ; and genus subs●sts in individuals ; as animal in homine & bruto ; and homo in socrates , alexander , cicero , &c. and we must look for genus in individuis , and there we shall find it ; it is where individuals are . but this doth not argue and demonstrate , that it hath no real existence . quantity and quality have no subsistence , but in their proper subjects ; and yet there are such things really extant in the world . colour , savour and odour , have no subsistence , but in mixt bodies ; and yet are real things . there is such a thing as paternity existing in the world ; and yet cannot subsist without filiation ; integrum is a real thing , and yet never subsists without his members . and as integrum hath his subsistence in his members , so genus in his individuals . as integrum is , where the members are ; so genus is , where the indviduals are . a flock is , where the sheep are , which are the members of that body . there cannot be the whole body without the head , hands , feet , or members of which it is made . so it is with genus and species : there cannot be homo without individuals , as socrates , plato , &c. this seemeth rather to be an argument , and demonstration of the real existence of universals : for how could they be in singulars , if they were not really existing ? if quantity and quality are in their proper subjects ; it is certain that there are such things in the world . so likewise , if universals are subsisting in singulars ; it is most certain that there are such things in rerum naturâ . proposition vi . genus is capable of time , and place , and may be measured by both . this mr hudson p. 81. denyeth , but we affirme . 1. it is capable of time , and may be measured by it . the essence of a thing stands in the union of matter and form ; the duration or continuance of the act of the forme upon the matter , or the holding together of the matter and form , is an adjun●t of the essence : and this is time . 2. there is a duration of the matter and forme of individuals . the matter and forme of gabriel have continued together above 5000. years . 3. gabriel , and other individual angels , have been existing in the world above 5000. years : his duration and theirs is measured by time . 4. hence the totum gen●s , angel-kind , the whole kind of angels were created in beginning of time , and have been in the world a certaine space of time ; the duration of the whole kind is equal with the duration of the individuals , and is therefore measured by time . there was a time when there was no kind of inconstant natures in the world , viz. the sust 12. hours , when there was nothing but the third heaven , and the angels created ; and the first matter , after that all the several sorts and kinds of things ▪ which were per●ected by degrees , came into the world in their order , successively one after another , all the kinds have continued in the world for many 1000 years . the existence of all these kinds is measured by time . all these kinds also are measured by place ; for where the individuals are , there are the kinds . all the individuals of every kind are in some place or other ; and therefore it may be truly affirmed , that all kinds of things were seated in some place or other . the stars , the whole kind of them remain in the element of fire to this day . i conclude this proposition ; the genus subsisting in individuals , which are in time and place , in that respct is it self also in time and place . having premised these things , we shall now state the question , and give some arguments for the confirmation of the truth . that which is to be demonstrated , is , that genus is not a notion ( as mr hudson p. 81. calls it ) that is , a meer notion : we shall labour to prove that genus is not a meer notion floting only in the brain ; it is not a meere fantasme or fantastical thing , existing only in intellectu nostro , and no where else : but a real thing . universalia non sunt intentionalia , sed realia ; universal things are real things , existing in nature , and rebus ipsis . that genus is existing in rerum naturâ , may appear by these reasons . 1. reason , every artificial argument is in rerum naturâ , existing really in nature : genus is an artificial argument ; therefore genus is in rerum naturâ the major or first proposition is evident , for that is an artificial argument , which is in artificio rei : in the frame , fabrick , and nature of the thing immediately . the minor is also clear , that genus is an artificial argument : for it is either an artificial argument , or a testimony ; but it is not a testimony : ergo . it argues not by an as●umed force as a testimony , but in , and of it self . the genus is arguing and claiming an interest in his species , as parts of himself , before any man give testimony of it . 2. reason , that which may be invented and found in rerum natur● , is in reru● naturâ . genus may be invented and found in rerum naturâ . therefore genus is in rerum naturâ . invenire est in rem venire , to invent is to come in upon a thing : and it is impossible to finde a thing in nature , that is not there to be found . a man cannot find fruits or flowers growing in orchards or gardens where they never grew : nor mines of gold , in places where the sun never made any . if g●nus were not in fabrica rei , in the frame of things ; it could never be found there . genus may be invented , for it is an argument in the first part of logick , which is nivention . reas. 3. that which may be abstracted from the things , is in rerum naturâ . genus may be abstracted form the things . therefore genus is in rerum naturâ . that genus may be abstracted , is granted by mr h●dson : and abstracted and drawn away it could not be , if it were never existing in the things . men cannot gather grapes of thorns , or figges of thistles , where they never grew . if genus were not growing and springing up in the garden of nature , it could never be abstracted and drawn from thence by the consideration of our understandings . to abstract ( as we have heard ) is to see a thing distinct from another , that grows together with it in the frame . if magnitude were not really existing in a body , and adjoyned to it , it could never be abstracted from it by geometry . reason , 4. every totum whose parts are real things , really existing in nature , is it self in rerum naturâ . genus is a totum , whose parts are real things , really existing in nature ; therefore genus it self is in rerum naturâ . the first proposition is fair and rational ; for there is a reciprocation of all the parts with the whole . the whole contanies just as much as the pars ; and it cannot contain so much as the parts , if the parts be full of entity and reality ; and the whole be a vain thing , having no reality , or real entity , and being in it . if genus be a meer fantastical thing , and notion , which men have got in their crowns , it is an empty vessel , and holds no real entity at all ; and then the parts must be empty . a vessel full of ayre or wind is empty , in comparison of that which is filled with water or precious liquor . if the species are real things , and the genus an empty notion , an empty vessel , how can it hold as much as the species ? if that be an empty thing it pours out nothing but emptiness into the species ; and they receive nothing but emptiness from it . animal is as real a thing as homo and brutum : and homo as real , as socrates , or plato . the minor is most true , that species , especially the individual species , are real things . mr hudson will not deny , that peter , abraham , and david &c. are real things . reason , 5. that which gives and communicates real essence and being to other things , is in r●rum naturâ . genus gives and communicates real essence , and being to other things ; therefore genus it self is in rerum naturâ . that which is a meer fanta●ie or fantastical thing , can give no essence . how can that which is onely in the brain give essence ? if it were onely mental , it could not give being ; nihil dat , quod non habet . it is a strange thing to conceive that a notion should sit in a mans understanding , and brood so many real things : all the species of things should then have a mighty dependance upon mens understanding : for upon this account , if there were no reasonable creatures , having understanding to catch and hold this bird ; it would imediately make use of its wings , and flee as an eagle out of the world , and the compass of beings , and vanish into just nothing . all universalls would betake themselves to their flight , they would all take their leave . but if there should be but one rational creature produced in the world , they would come flocking in thick and threefold , and build their nests in his understanding ; and being well seated there , would out of their emptiness pour out themselves as freely upon their species , and make them as real beings as ever they were . genus gives and communicates being to other things , i. e. to his species : for genus est totum partibus essentiale . the essential causes , which constitute the essence , are comprehended in the genus , and the forme . homo est animal rationale : animal , a living creature is essential to man : it containes part of the essence of man . for the definition layeth out all the essentiall causes . reason , 6. if there be a community of nature and kindred between beings , and general kinds of things in rerum naturâ , genus is in rerum naturâ , but there is community of nature ; and kindred between beings , and general kinds of things in rerum natura ; therefore genus is in rerum naturâ . i shut up diverse arguments in one , and conclude this question . i know no exception against either of the propositions . i see no ground to question the first : for what is in the genus but community of nature , and kindred between beings from the first ? if therefore some special things have the same nature in common one with another ; and if there be such neer affinity and kindred between beings ; there is genus in rerum naturâ . if there be general kinds of things , varia genera rerum , there must be genus ; for what is genus , but the general kinde ? the minor , or second proposition may easily appear . what is more evident then this , that there is community of nature , a kindred between beings , and general kinds of things in nature ? constant natures , as angels , have the same angelical nature in common one with another , divided between them . the elements have one common nature , being a kin , i. e. of the same generall kinde one with another . so likewise have the elementaries , which are made of them . all living things are of a kindred . things that live the life of sense , are of a neere kindred : and those that live the life of reason , together with the life of sense , have a neer agreement of nature , and are neer a kin one to another . iam. 3. 7. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} : hath been tamed of the humane nature , or of mankind ( as it is in our translation ) which are both one for the substance : all mankind having the same humane nature in common . so also there is a kindred of arts ( as cicero speaks : he affirms that ) poetry is a kin to oratory ; because all arts have a common vi●culum and bond , and a certain kindred between them , by which they are contained , and held together , &c. and that there are diverse general and special kinds of things in nature appeares , gen , 1. 11. 12 , 21 , 24. there are various kinds of trees , as a vi●e , fig-tree , &c. and several kinds of apple-trees under that general kind . several kinds of living creatures , fishes , birds , beasts ; and diverse sorts under one kind : under the general kind of beasts , there are lyons , horses , &c. who can reckon up their manifold kinds ? there is angel-kind , mankind , &c. all these kinds of things are real things : and all other kinds besides mankind , were come into the world and had a real being and existence before the understanding of man was created , and sitted to receive them . they could not exist then in intellectu nostro : where could they exist , but in rerum natura ? we have heard of the agreement ; we are now to speak concerning the difference of totum universale , and integrale . difference i. the genus is a not of the causes ; the integrum is a note of the effect : genus and species are notes of the causes and effects : and integrum and membra , are notes of the effect and causes . the integrum is a totum , to which the parts are essential : they give essence , i. e. causes . the essential causes are the matter and form ; therefore these parts give matter and forme to the whole . every member gives a portion of matter and forme ; and all members make up a common matter and forme of the whole : and of the matter and forme of every part , is made up the matter , and forme of the whole ; the matter of the whole is made of the matter of the parts ; and the forme of the forme of the parts . and as these contain the matter and forme of the whole , so the genus being essential to the parts , containeth the matter and common forme of the species . a perfect definition containes all the the essential causes of the thing , which are the matter and form , the general , and proper nature : the forme is exprest , and the matter is included in the g●nus , which containes the matter and common forme . difference ii. the genus comm●nicates his whole essence , and his whole entire nature to the species . species habet naturam generis integram , non universam . the entire nature of the genus is in the species : and in this respect , tota natura generis conservatur in unâ specie : all the entire nature of man was preserved in adam ; because the genus is essentiall to its parts : it communicates his whole entire essence to every one of them . it is not so in integrum ; there the parts did give their essence to the whole , and not the whole to them . there therefore the rule is , quicquid convenit membr● ▪ convenit integro ; because the members were essential to it . but the rule here is , quicquid convenit generi , convenit speciebus ; because the genus is essential to them . and in this respect , species recipit generis sui definitionem : not in actu signato ; the definition of the genus is not the definition of the species : we must not say species est genus ; but in actu exercito , ( as i said ) that is , take any example of genus , as homo is genus to his individuals : and here the definition of homo is communicated to peter . man is a reasonable creature ; peter is a man ; therefore peter is a reasonable creature . animal is indued with sense , a lyon is animal ; therefore a lyon is indued with sense . mr hudson p. 79. doth somwhat dissent from this : his expressions are these . though it be said that tota natura generis conservatur in unâ specie , and by this rule in uno individuo , it must be fundamentaliter only , non formaliter , for there is no such universality formally in specie , & multo minis in individuo . i answer , that i know no man who affirms that the universality of the genus is in specie formally ; the universality is not there , but the entire nature of man is in socrate , &c. the evidence which mr hudson brings for the demonstration of this , is , that the nature of an integrum cannot be preserved in one member : his words are , as the nature of a flock is not reserved in one sheep , or a corporation in one man ; to use mr hooker's own words . answ. he useth mr hooker's own words indeed , for mr hooker disputes against mr hudson , and demonstrates clearly , that the nature of an integrum cannot be preserved in one member : but he professeth , that he yeilds that which all writers and rules confirme ; that tota natura generis conservatur in una specie . if mr hudson can prove that genus & int●grum are the same , his instances will serve to some purpose ; otherwise they are propounded in vain ; for a flock is an integrum ; and so is a corporation : an individual sheep cannot be a flock ; but an individual sheep hath the whole entire nature of a sheep in it : there is nothing in the nature of a sheep . that is wanting in this or that individual sheep . difference iii. the genus communicates all his essential properties to his species , but the integrum doth not communicate his properties to his members . genus is essential to his species , communicates his essence and nature , and therefore he communicates all his essential properties to his species . dans formam , dat form●e consequen●ia : quicquid tribuitur generi convenit speci● . convenire is to come together : all the essential properties of the genus do come together into the world with the sp●cies : for nothing can be without his essential properties . if homo be risibilis , socrates est etiam risibilis . if a plant hath seed within it self , a vine also hath seed within it self ; gen , 1. 11. if art be practical , logick is practical . and on the other side , those properties which agree not to the genus , agree not to the species . if art be not a habit , logick is not a habit : the nature of a thing and the properties go both together . tollens naturas , tollit proprietates : tollens proprietates , tollit naturas . i wonder that m. hudson p. 80. should affirme , that a genus is not capable of adjuncts . that which hath inherent accidents existing in it as its own , that is an integral : for a genus is not capable of them . answ. risibility is an adjunct of man existing in him as his own , it is his own propriety he doth not borrow it from any other . it is a property of man firstly , and agrees to socrates because he is a man . it is a catholike property belonging to man as man . homo est animal risibile , is a catholike axiom which it , called {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} primum de toto because this is first true of the whole , and then of the parts ; it is first true of homo , and then of socrotes , and plato , omne animal risibile est hom● : omnis homo est animal risibile . but it cannot be said truely , that omne animal risibile est plato . we have heard that the properties of the genus are communicated to the species ; but the properties of the integrum are not communiaated to the members ; for the members are essential to the integral . socrates est risibilis , yet it cannot be said properly , pes socratis est risibilis ▪ socrates est capax discpinae , but you cannot say that his heel is capable of discipline mr hudson p. 93. saith , that this is true only of integrum dissim●lare , not of similare . for a whole pint of water ( saith he ) doth moysten and cool ; and so doth every drop . answ. these proper●ies agree to a drop , not as it is a part , or member of a pint , but because it is a sp●cies of water , having the forme of water in it to which all the properties do belong . one bee makes honie not because it is a member of this swarme , but because it is a species of bee in general having all his essential properties . difference iiii. genus communicates his operatio●s to his species ; but integrum doth not communicate his operations to all his members . all the essential operations of the genus are in every species . if the genus commu●ica●e his entire nature , and all his essential properties to his speci●s , he communicates also all his essential operations ; operatio sequitur esse . if it communicate his qualities , and principles of acting it communicates his operations : for frustr à fit pot●nt●a , quae nunquam reduc●ur in actum . it is true that genus exists and acts in his species ; and integ●um acts not without his members : if a star shines the north star shines . mr hudson conc●ives that genus is inefficacious , that ( saith m. hudson ) which hath actions and operations of its own , is an integral ; for a genus is not capable thereof . ●eason , 1. every real being is capable of operations . genus is a real being . therefore genus is capable of operations . the major is clear ; because operatio sequitur esse , the operation of a thing followeth the being of it . omne ens agit ; because it is propter finem : that which is for an end , workes or can worke for that end : but every being is for an end : ergo . the minor , that genus is a real being hath been prov'd before . reas. 2. a second reason that genus is capable of operations , is taken from his properties , and qualities ; we have proved that genus is not empty of such things as those are . that which hath proper qualities and principles , whereby it is able to work , is capable of operations . genus hath proper qualities , and principles , whereby he is able to worke . therefore genus is capable of operations . we have made it evident , that genus hath properties , and proper qualities : and frustrà fit potentia , quae nunquam reducitur in actum . reas. 3. a third reason is from the sad consequence which followes upon this position . if no genus , no kind of things is capable of operations , all kind of things are made in vaine : but all kind of things are not made in vaine ; therefore genus is capable of operations , for it is certain , that no kind of thing can attaine his end without operation ; where there is no {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , there can be no {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , or well working ; which is the end of every kind of being . reas. 4. if there be operations proper to every kind , genus is capable of operations . there are operations proper to every kind . therefore genus is capable of operations . there are some operations proper to angel-kind , some to mankind , some to other kinds . to bring forth fruit is proper to a tree , not to be expected from a star , &c. to bring forth , and to bear grapes , is proper to a vine , &c. men do not gather grapes of thorns , or figs of thistles . matth. 7. 16. there are some operations peculiar to lyons , some to bees &c. 1 mean , that are proper to the whole kind . difference v. the name of the genus may be given to the species ; but the name of the integral cannot be given to the member : because the genus is totum essentiale , communicating his whole nature , and all his essential properties and operations to his species : and the names of things are sutable to their natures homo , the name of a man , is given to socrates , plato &c. but the name o man is not given to his finger or toe : for a member hath but part of the nature of the whole in it . obj. pars similaris hath the name of the integrum : a drop of water is water . answ. a drop of water is species . aqua , and haec aqua , are genus and species , as mr hooker speaks . that aqua and haec aqua are genus and species , may appear . res. 1. where there is an essentiall predication of the whole of his part , there is genus and species ; but in aqua , and haec aqua , there is an essential praedication ; of the whole of his part . ergo . the reason is , because genus onely is totum essentiale partibus . res. 2. haec aqua hath some genus . but this water hath no genus but water ; therefore this water hath water for his genus . res. 3. if two drops of water are ejusdem generis , then aqua is their genus . but two drops of water are ejusdem generis . ergo . it is not absurd that there should be many thousand sp●cies of water in one pailful , and many thousand sands in one handful , and many thousand bees in one hive . difference vi . genus est {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} prius speci●bus , & membra int●gro priora : the genus is before his species in priority of nature , and the member before the in●corum . the reason is , because genus is a note of the causes , integrum of the effect : the causes are in order of nature before the effect , and the effect after the causes . the genus is essentiall to his parts , giving causes to the species ; the members are essential to the integral , communicating essence to it ▪ the more universal , general , or common any thing is , the more priority of nature it hath . animal est prius homine ( est e●im termiais comm●nior quàm homo homo before socrates . as genus is prius so it is notius naturâ . claritas generis non dependet à claritate specici , sed 〈◊〉 s●se commnni●at ; singulars may be better known to us , but universais are by nature be●ter known then specials : homo is better known then socrates , or plato ; animal better known then any of them ; and substance better then that : ens à primo is better known then any of them all : because it drawes neerer to ens primum which is notissimum , & maximè intelligibil● . prius & notius naturâ eadem sunt . but the members are before the integral in order of nature , for that is made up of the members ; and therefore cannot be before them . a house cannot be before the foundation and superstruction : a tree cannot be before the root , body , and branches . mr hooker p. 255. in his rational discourse about the nature of integrum , made it appear as clear as the sun , that the members which make up , and constitute the whole , are in order of nature before it . yet mr hudson p. 219. seemeth to plead for the priority of an integral ; affirming , that the nature of the church catholike , visible in respect of the particulars , is like to the priority of a kingdom , to the parts of it ; or of a corporation , in respect of the parts of it which is not meant ( saith mr hudson ) in a mathematical or techtonical consideration : for so the particular buildings are prima , and the whole city orta . yet , ( saith he ) so m. hooker understands me . answ. mr hooker speaks not of a city only in respect of the artificial buildings : but he speaketh of a civil body or corporation , and a politicial kingdom : which bodies politick , and corporations hold correspondence with a city , having many houses and buildings in it ; which houses and buildings are in nature before the whole city ; which is the effect arising from those causes : so likewise the members of every body politick , are in nature before the entire body it self , which is made up of those causes . a city in a techtonical consideration may be first in intention , perfection and dignity , as well as a civil , or ecclesiastical corporation . mr hudson speaks , as if a city attended in a techtonical consideration , could not be first intended . for mr hudson opposeth these ; which is not meant ( saith mr hudson ) in a techtonical consideration , but in regard of intentions , &c. but it is a common rule , that which is first in intention , is last in execution , & contrà . the finishing and compleating the whole city is last in execution in a techtonical consideration ; why may it not be first in intention ? but no integral body is first in essence . mr hudson p. 219. affirms , that the integral church is first in ess●nce ; which i confess is above the reach of my shallow reason ; for the members give essence to the whole ; that is , matter and form ▪ and the integrum receives essence from them ▪ being a symbol of the effect . and how is it possible to conceive that that should be first in essence , that is last in essence , receiving his essence from the essence of the parts ? neither can any integrum be first cognitione distinctâ & noscibilitate perfectâ : it may be notius nobis analytically , but not notius naturâ genetically . when we analyse the frame and workmanship of god , we meet with the effects , and go from them to the causes , which we perceive by their effects : but the causes are better knowne by nature : because as res sese habent in esse , ita in cognosci , the intelligibility and cognoscibility of things , followeth their entity and being . mr hudson p. 278 speaks well and truly , cognitio sequitur ordinem naturae in se , but how the kingdom of england can be known without or before the knowledge of the distinct parts , i am not able to conceive . a man may indeed know the policy , laws , and priviledges ; and not know all the severall towns : but the towns are not the members of the laws and priviledges . a man cannot know the body of laws distinctly , before he knows any of the particular laws ; for it is certain , that as the essence of a thing consists in his causes , so the knowledge of the essence of a thing consists in the knowledge of the causes . the common place of causes , is the fountain of all science ; scirique demum creditur , cujus causa teneatur : ut merito dicatur à poëtâ . foelix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas . it is a speculative happiness , and the ●oelicity of the understanding , to know the causes of things . but there is but small happiness to see the outside of the thing , not understanding the essentiall causes , and ingredients into the essence , and being of it : a man may as well know the nature and essence of a thing distinctly , without the knowledge of his distinct nature and essence ; as know a thing distinctly , without knowledge of his causes . we have heard of some consectaries , from the definition of genus ; i shall observe two things from the definition of species specialissima ( which is that which cannot be divided into other species . ) the first is that individuum est species . the second is that though species specialissima cannot be divided into other species , yet it may be divided into members . 1. individuum est species every singular , or individuall thing is a sp●cies . touching this question i shall first explicate , secondly confirm the truth . 1. the explication may be given in these following theses , or positions . thesis . i. the variation onely of scituation or accidents , is not sufficient to vary the species 1. here i concurre with mr hudson p. 91. this man is an english man ; this english man is a suffolk man ; this suffolck man is an ipswich man . this praedication is denominatio adjunctae personae à subjectis . if a man remove his habitation from one country to another , or from one land to another , this make him not another species . as it is sayd coelum non animum mutant &c. so i may say , coelum non speciem mutant , qui trans mare currunt . the place is but a subject , and not essentiall , and cannot make an essentiall difference between a man and himself . 2. augmentation in stature , old age , &c. make not a specificall difference ; gradus non variant speciem . 3. variation of sex doth not vary the species ; the same person may be mas , & foemina . an hermaphrodite , or androgyne , is not two persons or species ; and yet is both man and woman . 4. various species must be various things , between which there is an essentiall difference . thesis . ii. various species must fall under the essential predication of some kind , which is of a more general or comprehensive nature : for species est pars g●neris ; and the genus is totum partibus essentiale : there must be therefore an essentiall praedication of something more general , upon something more special ; as homo , est animal : haec aqua , est aqua . thesis . iii. when we say socrates est homo , there is an essentiall praedication of homo , which is more generall ; upon socrates , which is more speciall . homo is essentiall to socrates , and comprehends socrates and plato under him : this mr hudson p. 89. grants freely . thesis . iiii. socrates and plato are opposita , opposite one to another : they are disparata , that is , such things whereof one is opposed to many ; in like manner as a blew colour is opposed to red , green , &c. in like manner socrates is opposed to plato , cicero , aristotle , equally to one as well as to another . hence socrates and plato , are not only diverse , dissenting in some logical respect ; but opposite , dissenting re & ratione , really and indeed , they dissent in their own nature , as they are things ; there is a bar in their nature , they are set one against another , that they can never be one and the same ; as black cannot be white . socrates and plato are two , one cannot be the other , there is an essentiall difference between them . thesis . v. socrates and plato are distinguisht one from another by their proper and essentiall formes . as a man and a lyon differ in their common forme , so socrates and plato in their proper form . all opposition is firstly from the form ; hereby a thing is that which it is , and is therefore by this distinguished from all other things . all essentiall distinction and opposition is from the forms of things ; they differ not only accidentally , but essentially one from the other , and are distinguisht one from another by their essentiall forms . thesis . vi . the numericall difference between socrates and plato , is an argument of their specificall distinction : it includeth and implieth an essentiall difference between things , being distinguished by their proper individuall essentiall forms . it is true , that our intellectualls are so wounded by the apostacy of the first man , that it is exceeding hard for us to find out the forms of things : we are forced many times to describe the forms of things by their accidents ; as we are constrained to describe the elements by their proper qualities arising from their forms : yet every one of them hath a proper forme . the existence of every thing is from all the causes : nothing can exist and be that which it is , without its proper form . and the difference of the proper form is no less then the difference of the common form , but rather greater . look how much greater the similitude and agreement is between singulars in regard of their common forms , so much greater is the difference of their proper forme . the difference and opposition of contraries is the greatest and strongest ; and yet they communicate in the same genus : these are more opposite one to another then things that are not under the same genus : white and black are more opposite , then white and bitter , &c. gravia bella fratrum . to differ so numerically is to differ formally ; to differ in number , is to differ in forme : for number is an affection or proper adjunct following the essence . socrates and plato have two distinct forms : hence they differ in essence ; hence they have two distinct essences and beings ; hence they are two : one cannot be the other , they cannot be both one and the same : hence they differ numerically one from the other . where there is one humanity and essential forme of man , there is one essence of man , and one man : and where there are two humanities , and essentiall , proper , individuall forms of man , there are two men : hence they differ numerically , and one is not the other , or the same with the other . socrates is not plato , but is numerically different from him socrates is one , and plato is another : as london is one city , and york another . the difference of number is nothing but the difference of the proper and individuall forme , and to differ in number , is to differ in forme : two men have two different forms , two lyons have two different formes . if socrates and plato , or any other individuall men differing in number , should not differ in essence and forme , they should differ only accidentally one from the other ; as one man differs from himself , or as socrates in his old age , differs from socrates in his youth ; being the same man , and differing onely in accidents , not in essence . socrates should be plato ; and plato , socrates . and when alexander rides bucephalus , aristotle sits in the same saddle : and it were impossible not to set the saddle upon the right horse ; for every horse is the same essentially ; and he that stealeth one horse , he stealeth all the horses in the world ; because the essence of the one is the same with the essence of the other . there is a difference indeed in accidents , but none in essence ; there being ( according to this accompt ) no essentiall or substantiall difference between them . lastly , hence there is ( upon the same accompt● no essential and substantial man in the world but only ideal : for all generals subsist in individuals , and individuals onely subsist in themselves . if therefore individualls differ not essentiall one from another but only accidentally ; there is no substantiall or essentiall man subsisting by himself : because individuall men only subsist in themselves . if therefore no individuall , proper , essential , humane forme , there is no individuall essentiall man subsisting ; and therefore no individuall substantiall man in the world . every individuall man is an accidentall man , having no proper , substantial , individual form or essence . he that hath no substantial proper form hath no substantial proper essence ; and therefore cannot be a substantial individual man . and hence there is no substantial individual man in the world , but only ideal and common : and socrates and plato should differ essentially no more one from another then doctor mar●in , and doctor luther . but the truth is , they have not one and the same essence , but differ in their essentiall forme one from another . for an accidentall forme cannot be the prime and principall essentiall cause of a substance . thesis . vii . the name agrees most properly to individuals speci●s of the old verb specio to see , or behold ( as we have heard ) signifieth the visible face or appearance of a thing , a sight or thing seen : the greek word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} of {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , video , signifyeth a visible shape , forme , image or representation of a thing : ( as we have heard ) the reason is , because individualls are onely visible in themselves , we may see some of their faces daily with our bodily eyes . generalls cannot beseen but in individualls ; man cannot beseen ▪ but in socrates , and plato , and other individualls . it is clear therefore , that the name which is a note and representation of the thing , sutes best of all with singulars and individualls . thesis . viii . logicians will grant , that individuum est species . not onely ramus , berhusius snellius , gutberleth , &c. but aristotle will grant it : he testifyeth that the last and lowest generall kindes are next above the individualls , as man is arist. lib. 3. above individuall men . extrema , seu ultima g●nera supra indivi-metaph . c. 4. dua sunt , ut homo . i might easily name severall authors who conceive , that homo is the genus of individuall men , and that individuall men are species . but those are onely inducements , not convincements , being onely inartificiall arguments . we shall therefore ( having propounded these preparatives and expl●ations , somwhat helping to understand the cause in hand ) present some artificiall arguments and reasons for the demonstration of this truth , that individuum est species . singular lyons are species of lyon in generall . socrates , cicero , aristotle , solomon , plato &c. are species of homo . reason . i. if homo be the genus of socrates and plato , socrates and plato are species of homo . but homo is the genus of socrates and plato ; therefore socrates and plato are species of homo . major : genus and species stand in a mutuall respect , and look one to another , so that homo cannot be genus , socratis & platonis , unless socrates and plato are species hominis : genus , as such , hath an eye upon his species , and respects nothing else in the world : as the cause argues nothing but his effect , so the genus argues nothing but his species . minor . the proof therefore of the minor is most of all here to be attended , viz. that homo is the genus of socrates and plato : which may appear thus , reas. 1. that to which the definition of genus agreeth , is genus : but the definition of genus agreeth to homo , as he standsin respect to socrates and plato ; therefore homo is genus , as he stands in respect to socrates and plato . genus is totum partibus essentiale ; and homo is totum partibus essentiale , giving essence to socrates , plato , and the rest of his individualls . reas. 2. if homo stand in the same respect to his individualls , in which animal stands to homo and brutum ; homo is the genus of all individuall men : but homo stands in the same respect to his individualls , in which animal stands to homo and brutum ; therefore homo is the genus of all individuall men . major prob. if homo respects and argueth his individualls , as animal respects and argues homo and brutum , homo hath the affection and respect of a genus to his individualls ; for animal hath the affection of a genus to homo and brutum ; and therefore , that being granted , there is as good reason that homo should be genus to individuall men . minor prob. homo stands affected as much and in like manner to singular men , as animal to homo and brutum . is animal more general then homo ? homo is more general then socrates , &c. doth animal comprehend homo & brutum ? homo comprehends socrates , & plato , and all other individuall men under him . is animal essentiall to man and beasts ? hom● is as essential to socrates and his other individualls . doth animal communicate himself , and his whole essence to homo ? homo is as liberall to socrates , and cicero , and his other individualls ; keeps nothing to himself , but unlockes all his treasures of humanity , and bestowes all his whole estate , and all his humane excellencies , his entire nature , matter , and forme , his name , dignity , nobility , and all his titles of honour upon socrates , & his other individualls , and challengeth as great an interest in them , as animal can challenge in homo and brutum . if homo can say , i am animal ; socrates can stand upon the same termes with homo , and say i am homo . if homo can say animal is mine , and all that he hath ; socrates can say homo is mine , and all that he hath . reas. 3. homo is either genus , or species , in respect of individual men ; but homo is not species , in respect of individual men . therefore homo is genus in respect of individual men . major . homo stands in some respect to individuals and singulars : let any man put any other respect upon homo , as he respects his singulars , but either genus or species . minor . it cannot be a species ( as some would have it ) for it is called species onely in respect of his genus . if it be a species of singular men , of socrates , plato , &c. then those individuals must be his genus , and socrates should be more general then homo . but it is clearer then the light of the sun , that homo is more general . reas. 4. if all individual men are ejusdem generis , of the same kind , all comprehended under mankind , homo is genus . but all indiuidual men are ejusdem generis , of the same kind , all comprehended under mankind ; therefore homo is their genus what else can be their next genus ? rebsan ii. if the definition of species agreeth to socrates and plato , socrates and plato are species : but the definition of species agreeth to socrates and plato ; therefore socrates and plato are species . minor prob. species est pars generis , a part of the kind : socrates and plato are parts of mankind ; they are of that stock and kindred , comprehended under that kind , and are parts of it . they can be no other but parts of mankind universally considered . if all the men in the world should be annihilated but socrates and plato , there were yet a part of mankind remaining in the world . reason iii. those parts which have the entire nature , matter , forme and properties of the kind communicated to them , are species : socrates and plato have the entire nature , matter , form and properties of the kind communicated to them ; therefore socrates and plato are species . major , it is proper to the species ( as we have heard ) to have the entire nature and properties of the genus communicated to it . if a member had the entire nature of the genus communicated to it , a member were an integrum . minor , socrates est animal rationale , and hath the whole nature of homo , and all his properties communicated to him : he is risibilis , and hath all humane properties which are essentiall to the whole kind . reason . iiii. those things which have one and the same common nature , and are specifically distinguisht one from another , are species : socrates and plato have one and the same common nature , and are distinguished specifically one from another . therefore socrates and plato are species . the major is evident primo aspectû : the minor shall be cleared . those which are distinguished one from another by their proper essentiall forms , are specifically distinguished one from another : socrates and plato are distinguished one from another by their proper essentiall formes ; therefore socrates and plato are specifically distinguished one from another . we have made it clear in some of those theses which we have propounded , that socrates and plato are distinguished one from another , not accidentally , but by their proper essentiall formes : and that to differ numerically , is to differ by their proper forme . reason v. speciall beings comprehended and contained under that which is more generall , are species . socrates and plato are speciall beings comprehended under that which is more generall ; therefore socrates and plato are species . what are species , but speciall beings i. e. , such beings as have a more speciall nature and forme comprehended and contained under some more generall head ? individuall men are speciall beings , &c socrates and plato are speciall men , each having a speciall forme ( as we have heard ) they are speciall men , more contracted then homo in genere . whatsoever is more contracted , is more speciall : but the idea of plato or socrates is more contracted then the idea of homo in generall ; therefore they are more speciall : socrates is not a generall , but a speciall man , having a speciall nature , besides his common nature . socrates springs not from the same speciall individuall principles out of which plato is made . reason . vi . singular parts , bearing the name of the whole , are species : socrates and plato are singular parts , bearing the name of their whole ; therefore socrates and plato are species . a member not having the entire nature of the integrum , is never called by the name of the integrum , as we have heard . but the species having the whole essence , and definition of the genus in it , is called by the name of the genus . a foot not having the entire nature of homo in it , is not called homo : but socrates having the entire nature of humanity in him , is called homo . he hath integram naturam hominis in se . there is nothing in humanity , which is not to be found in him : and therefore the name of man may well be given to him ; he is an intire man . qui habet humanitatem in se integram , est homo ; socrates habet humanitatem in se integram , ergo socrates est homo . the second thing to be observed concerning species specialissima , is this conclusion which followeth . although species specialissima cannot be divided into other species , yet it may be divided into members . socrates who is species specialissima may also be considered as an integrum , & so be divided into members . an individuall vine cannot be divided into more species : but as it containeth root , body , and branches , it may be divided into members . divers respects may fall upon the same things or may concrescere and grow together upon the same subject . dialectica concrescit cum seipsâ , & cum al●is omnibus concresoentibus . a singular vine , as it beareth grapes , is causa : as it exists from its principles or causes it is an effect : as it stands in the vineyard it is an adju●ct : as it containeth root ▪ body and branches , there are integrum & membra : as it respects a vine in gener● , it is species . the definition , rule and notion of species and integrum are different ; integrum and species are diverse and various logical respects , which cannot be the same one with another ; yet the same thing which is integrum , may also be sp●cies . suppose a man should reason thus , that vine which hath root , body , and branches , is an integrum : this individual vine hath root , body , and branches ; therefore this individual vine is an integrum . it may appear from hence , that which is species specialissima , may be also integrum . and this may serve to make one of our former principles appear with greater clearness and evidence , viz. that the entire nature of the genus is in the species : the entire nature of a vine is in this individual vine . in like manner every individual church hath the entire nature of a church in it . an individual church is a species , as it respects a church in general , under which it is comprehended ; yet as it containeth members , it is an integral . hence it is that every individual church containeth members , because it is an integrum ; and yet is a species as it stands in reference to a church in genere . hence also a church in genere may be said to have members and officers in it , not considered under the nature of genus ( the arguments of genus and integrum cannot be the same : genus and integrum cannot be the same in actu signato ) but because the species speci●lissima containeth members as it is integrum ; and this species specialissima is comprehended under the genus . in this sense a genus may be truely said to have officers in it . this mr hudson p. 2. denieth , his words are , a genus is not capable of officers . a. it is true in actu signato , but that which is genus , comprehending the species and individualls which containe members ▪ may in that respect be said to comprehend members and officers . this may appear by observing some formes of reasoning which may be propounded . ex. gr. every entire ecclesiastical body politick containeth officers & other members : boston church is an entire , ecclesiasticall body politick ; therefore boston church containeth officers and members . this argumentation is a genere ad speciem : an entire ecclesiastical body politick is the genus , and boston church the species . this may serve to answer that argument which mr hudson p. 84. 85 , 86. useth , to prove that the church catholike is an integral , taken from the several appellations which are given to the church catholike in scripture . it is called a body , a kingdom , a tabernacle , a city , an army , a sheepfold , a wheat field , a barn-floor , a drag-net , a loaf of bread . now all these ( saith m. hudson p. 86. ) and many more appellations have no analogie to a genus , but to an integrum . i answer , that those and such appellations are firstly and properly appellations of an integrum , having analogie to totum integrale . but this totum integrale is species specialissima ; or every individuall church being species specialissima , is also an integrum , and containeth members : and the genus comprehending all his species under him , it comprehends the individualls with all their members under it , or within it self . hence those appellations which are given to an individual church , are given to the church in general . quicquid affirmatur & negatur de specie , etiam affirmatur & negatur de genere particulariter : et quicquid essentiale affirmatur & negatur de genere , affirmatur etiam & negatur de specie . if a church be a body , then this or that individual church is a body and all the members , of it are {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} one and the same body , of one and the same corporation . a church is a bodie : boston corgregation is a church ; therefore boston congregation is a bodie . mr. husdon p. 84. saith that a genus●s no body . ans. yet a body or integrum considered in g●nere , is genus . mr hooker p. 85. doth not say that a genus is a body , and the particular species are ●tly joyned together and compacted , by that which every joynt supplyeth ; as mr hudson insinuates : but mr hooker p. 268. affirmeth that the particular members of a congregation are compacted together , and where there are many particular churches there is totum genericum existens . i might say the like of the other appellations ; a church is a kingdom , tabernacle , temple , city , &c. boston corgregation is a church ; therefore boston cong●egation is a kingdom , tabernacle , temple , citie &c. we have heard of the rules concerning genus ; we now proceed to the application of those rules to the question in hand , where we shall first return answer to mr hudson his arguments . secondly propound reasons tending to prove that a congregational church is a catholike church . chapter iiii. containing an answer to mr hudson his arguments propounded in his fourth chapter ; wherein he laboureth to prove , that the church catholicke visible , is one integral , or totum integrale . i cannot enlarge as i would ; i shall therefore return a brief answer in these several conclusions following . conclusion i. to●um genericum existit in rerum natur● . the general or universal whole is really exis●ing in nature . see the fifth conclusion concerning the agreement between genus & integrum . this answers mr hudson his first argument p. 78 , 79. conclusion ii. totum gen●ricum h●bet partes extra partes . see the first conclusion concerning the agreement of genus and integrum . this answers mr hudson his second argument p. 79. conclusion iii. individual christians , which are not members of any particular congregation , are not formally politicall church members . visible saints are the matter of a visible church ; and in that respect may be said to be members materialiter , but not formaliter ; because they are not confederate . the woman of canaan was a visible saint and beleever , yet was not formally a member of the iewish church : a proselyte was called filius foederis , a son of the covenant . a regenerate man excommunicated , is no political church member . the apostles were members of the church at jerusalem , acts i. vers. 2 , 3 , 13 , 14 , &c. the apostles had an extraordinary commission and influence into all churches : but this is not sufficient to demonstrate that all churches made one integral . this may serve to answer mr hudsons third argument p. 79 , 80. conclusion iiii. a genus is capable of inherent accidents . see the third difference between genus and integrum . a church compacted according to the institution of christ , is visible , beautifull , terrible . boston church is compacted according to the institution of christ ; therefore boston church is visible , terrible , beautiful . by this manner of reasoning , a genere ad speciem , it is evidentil that those accidents to properties do firstly belong to the genus , or to a church in genere ; and then to an individual church , as a species of that genus . a genus is also capable of being majus and minus , in actu exercito . mankind is capable of increase : vertue shall increase at the calling of the jewes : if humility , chastity , justice , faithfulness , and contentation ( which are the species of vertue ) shall increase , then vertue which is the genus shall increase ; when injustice abounds ( which is species peccati ) peccatum ( which is the genus ) abounds : if the species be extended , the genus is extended also ; quicquid affirmatur & negatur de specie , etiam affirmatur & negatur de genere particulariter . that the genus may be mutable and fluxile , we have heard . see the first conclusion concerning the agreement of genus and integrum . genus also is measurable by time and place . see conclusion fift concerning the agreement of genus and integrum . these may answer mr hudson his fourth argument . p. 80 , 81. conclusion v. a genus may be capable of admission and ejection of parts . see second conclusion concerning species specialissima , wherein we may find an answer to mr hudson his fifth argume●t p. 81. 82. conclusion vi . a genus may be capable of officers . see conclusion second , concerning species specialissima . every entire compleat ecclesiastical society or church is furnished with officers . boston congregation is a compleate intire church , or a compleate ecclestiastical society therefore boston church is furnished with officers . this is part of an answer to mr hudson his sixth argument p. 82. i shall add a word more to fill up the answer . there are no habituall officers in the church : all officers in the church are actuall officers . habitual officers are non ens possibile , quod non est sed potest esse . lawyers may in this sense be called habitual officers of the church , for they may officiate in a church when they are called . conclusion vii . the church catholike hath actions and operations of its own ; it is true that it exists and acts in its individualls , yet his properties are his owne , and so likewise are his operations . see the fourth difference between genus and integrum . this answers his seventh argument p. 82. conclusion viii . the several appellations which are given to the church catholike , are not a sufficient demonstration , that it is an integrall . see conclusion second concerning species specialissima . this answereth mr hudson his eighth argument p. , 84 85. and also his ninth argument p. 86 , 87. conclusion ix . the invisible church ( not being distinguished into several political bodies ) may be an integrum : yet the visible political church , distingushed into several congregations , may be a genus : and those several congregations , the several species . the name of the whole may be given to one , and not to the other . a thousand visible beleevers in confoederation one with another , &c. may be called a visible church : but a thousand invisible saints cannot be called an invisible church . here is no visible political vinculum or bond to bind all churches together in one integral body . this may answer mr hudson his tenth argument . p. 87. conclusion x. the church covenant is not onely a covenant between man and man , but also between god and man . we read of two staves , zach. 11. 7 , 10 , 14. beautie and bands : there was not onely a covenant between man and man , signifyed by bands ; but also a covenant , which god made with his people , signifyed by his staff , beauty . we may find this double covenant exprest isaiah 62. 5. as a bridegroom rejoyceth over the bride , so shall thy god rejoyce over thee . here is implyed a covenant between god and his people . and as a young man marrieth a virgin , so shall thy sons marry thee . there is implyed a covenant between man and man . when we enter into church covenant , we binde our selves to god , and to our bretheren , to walke with god and one with another , according to the rules of divine politie . we make not the covenant between man and man the forme of the church . here mr hudson is mistaken : who affirmes , that the covenant of particular congregations is a covenant between man and man : and this ( saith mr hudson ) we make the form of particular congregations . see mr hudson pag. 90. conclusion xi . baptisme is an adjunct priviledge of a political church member , as circumcision was a priviledge of the members of the iewish church ; gen. 17. those acts 2 , were admitted into the church , and then baptized . they are said to be baptised in the name of the lord iesus ; not because the apostles could alter the forme of baptisme prescribed by christ ( they were to baptise all in the name of the father , & in the name of the son , & of the holy ghost . math. 28. 19. ) but because they submitted to the power of christ in his church and ordinances , and owned him for their lord , and politicall head , and then were baptised . the same expression also we find acts. 10. 48. the eunuch was a proselyte , a member of the iewish church . obsignation with the initiall seale of baptisme implyeth confoederation , and admission into the church . suppose a master of artes in one university , takes the same degree in another university , without repetition of his former degree , which is included in the second ; this is no argument that all universities are members , and that there is one integral universitys consisting of them all . a man that hath been baptized in one church , and received the lords supper there , if he remove to another church and receive the lords supper there , without repetition of his baptisme ( for that must not be repeated ) this is no evidence , that there is one integral church of which all churches are members . this may serve to answer that which mr hudson writes pag. 90. his apprehension is , that a man who is no member of any particular congregation , may be baptized . conclusion xii . a congregation may remove from one place to another , and yet be the same individual congregation . a man do h not vary his species ▪ as often as he ●arieth his place : a church doth not vary its species , as often as it varieth its place ; yet two distinct congregations , are distinct species , as two men are . this answers to that question of m. hudson p. 91. conclusion xiii . genus containing the common matter , and also the common forme of the species , because the speciall forme is a member of the species , the genus may be said to contain the special forme , and to hold together the one with the other . a man may be said to hold a sword in his hand , when he holds only the hilt , haft , or handle in his hand he holds the sword by the handle , which is but a part of it . so likewise the genus holding , the species by the common forme , which is but a part of the species , yet , because the proper forme is another part , and joyned to it , the genus may be said to contain the species : as homo holdeth socrates by his common forme of humanity , to which his proper forme of socrateity being adjoyned , homo holdeth socrates , and so may be said to contain individual men , which are his species . this may answer that which mr hudson propounds pag. 95. totum essentiale sive genericum doth not comprise the forme of the species in it self , but giveth the matter or common nature to the species . i cannot but dissent from mr hudson his judgement concerning the constitution of the catholicke church , expressed in the next following words of the same pag. viz. p. 95. the church catholike is made up of the matter and forme of the particular churches conjoyned ; as a whole house of the particular rooms in it . for mr hudson saith that the catholicke church is first in essence : but a whole house is not first in essence , before the particular roomes of which it is made up . i never heard of a house consisting of several rooms , that was first made up of all the rooms in it , having the rooms made afterwards . one room may be made before a whole house consisting of several rooms ; but it is impossible ( i conceive ) that the whole house containing all those rooms , should be made up before the several rooms are made . chapter v. containing arguments tending to demonstrate that a congr●gational church is a 〈◊〉 universal visible church : wherein a few propositions are premi●ed , by way of explication . proposition i. the church of christ at jerusalem was the mother of us all : the primitive church ou● of which all the true visible churches in the world have swarmed , gal. 4. 25. proposition ii. the greek word {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ( latine conci● ) in english ▪ church ; in a theological sence , is proper●y given to an ecclesiasticall political body : for it signifies properly an assembly of citizens , lawfully called together by a be●dle , ●own clark or such like publick officer ; to attend their civil affaires as in cambridge the beadles call a congregation ; it is used acts. 19. 32. ●9 . 41. translated assembly . it is taken therefore in the theologicall use of it for an assembly of heaven●y ( i●izens joyned together in a political society and corporation , and meeting together according to divine institution , to worship christ , and attend the affairs of his house and kingdome . a congregational church is the proper subject of the rules of ecclesistical discipline and policie , which is to be guided to its publick foelicity by the rules of divine policy ; as a civil society is guided by the rules of civil policy to i●s civil happiness this was one piece of the misery of the ephesians and other ●entiles before their calling ; they were not onely dead in sin , children of wrath by nature &c. for so were the jewes , but they were also without christ , as political head of the visible church and aliens from the policie of israel . ep● . ● . 12. the ground of it we find in the same place and that is , they were strangers from the covenants : that is , from the church covenant , which is not only a covenant between god and man , but also between man and man ; and was often renued in the old testament : and for those reasons especially , it is called covenants in the plural number ; and from thence followed a double misery : first ▪ that they were without those faire hopes and possibilities of the good things promised . 2. and without the worship of god or ordinances of divine worship , which the jewes had , being church mem●ers . proposition iii. all the visible churches of the gospel , which are the genuine children of that primitive church , are political bodies . visibilis dicitur ecclesia propsohnius scrip. ter ordinem ecclesiasticum , ac formam exteriorem , ac visibile● , m●thod . ●qua quidem fecit , ut ecclesia sit , et dicatur visibilis : sohnius . proposition iv. the catholike visible church is to be found in the churches of the gospel , and in the dayes of christ . before his exhibition there was a domestical church , and a national church , but no catholike church ; which is opposed to the jewish church . the church was first in families , and then in populo , and that was either in populo israelitico , or catholico : when the son of god himself came into the world , it was too light a business for him to raise up the tribes of israel , but he must be a light to the gentiles , and salvation to the end of the earth : he must haue his honours , and royal houses , and keep his court among all nations . the church is not confined to iudea , or limited to any part or corner of the earth , but may be extended far and wide over all the world . therefore the field is called the world . proposition v. the name catholike doth most properly agree to a generical church , to a church as the genus of al churches . integrum , an integral whole , or totum , is called {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} & {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} bu●totumgenericum , or genus is properly called {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} a generical whole is properly called catholike and universal : genus and universale are all one and the same notion ; an integral church may be called a whole church , or ( if you will ) a synholick church , but not so properly a catholike church . proposition vi . a congregationall church is a catholike generical church , the genus of all churches in the world . a church or congregation is the genus of all congregations ; and the several churches and individual congregations , as boston church , capel church , hartford church , are the species of church in genere . reason i. that which comunicates his whole essen●e to boston church , capel church , and all individual churches , is a catholike generical universal church , and the genus of those individuals : a congregational church communicates his whole essence to boston church , capell church , &c ▪ therefore a congregational church is a catholike , generical universall church , and the genus of these individuals . the major is clear at the first sight , if we consider the definition of genus , which is totum partibus essentiale . the genus is that which is essential , i. e. that which communicats his whole essence consisting of matter & form , to his parts . the minor is apparent , for a congregational church communicates his whole essence , his matter and form to boston church , and the whole essence of a vis●ble , political congregational church is found in boston church , and in all true churches and faithful congregations of christ . there are visible saints which are the matter of a church we read of saints at rome , corinth , &c. and all churches are churches of the saints ; i cor. 14. 33. these are the materials of this glorious temple . saints are men separated from the world , dedicated unto god . this is the glory of a congregation to be of such glorious materials . it is a pleasant sight to see churches filled with such men ; with men that know god , and love god , having derived a principle of life from christ by faith . all church members must be visible saints , having a competent measure of knowledge , and blameless life : mat. 5. 19. rev. 22. 14. i. there is also a confaederation , either explicite or implicite ; whereby church members stand bound to walk with god , and one with another in the wayes of the worship of christ , according to the rules of divine policie . an explicite covenant is not essential to a church , because explicitness is but an adjunct of the covenant ▪ and because christ hath had visible churches in all ages since the primitive church , and yet an explicite covenant cannot be found in all ages ; yet it is to be desir●d , and there is much of the visible glory of christ appearing in it : when men visibly bind themselves , and their children also to christ , they cannot bind them to a better master . isaiah 44. 5. all iacobs children were inrolled in the catologue of the church . reason ii ▪ that totum which giveth his name to boston church , cap●l church , and all individual churches , is a catholike , generical , universal church , and the genus of all those churches . a congregational church giveth his name to boston church , capel church , and all individual churches : therefore a congregational church is a catholike universal church , and the genus of all individual churches . it is true ( which m ▪ hudson speaks , pag. 90. ) that every visible beleever is a christian ; and it is as true , that a christian is a generical , and paul an individual christian , and these are genus and species . every church member is a member of christ his kingdom , because every church is a kingdom of christ . we have proved that pars similaris is species ; and that aqua , and ●aec aqua , are genus and species ; and tha● it is the peculiar prerogative of the g●nus to communicate his name with his nature to his species . integrum cannot communicate his whole essence to every member ; for then there would be so many men in every man , as there are fingers , and toes , and members in his body . therefore every finger , and toe , and member cannot be called by the name of a man . the members of a man , being essential to him , make him a man : but a man cannot communicate his whole humanity to all his members , and make them so many men . it is most just and meete therefore , that a mans finger , not being a man , should want the name and title of a man , because such names must be given to things as may hold proportion with their natures . minor , boston church , capel church , and every individual church , is a congregational church , and is called by the name of a church or congregation . therefore a congregational church is a catholike , universal church , and the genus of all churches . reason 3. there is a genus of all individual churches : there is no genus of individual churches , but only a congregational church ; therefore a congregational church is the genus of all individual churches . their community of nature is an evidence that they have a genus , and are comprehended under some more general head : and there is no other next genus , but only a congregational church ; i speake only of their next genus : for a body politick is genus generalissimum , or a higher and more general genus . reason 4. if all individual churches are species , a congregational church is the genus of all individual churches : but all individual churches are species ; therefore a congregational church is the genus of all individual churches . that all individual churches are species , is evident , because all individuals are species , as wee haue proved in the first conclusion concerning species specialissima reason 5. if all individual churches are ejusdem generis , and are distinguished specifically one from another , a congregational church is a catholike generical universal church , and the genus of all individual churches : but all individual churches are ejusdem generis , ● and are distinguished specifically one from another ; therefore a congregational church is a catholike , generical , universal church , and the genus of all individual churches . they are all ejusdem generis , of the same kind , being all congregational churches ; boston church is a congregational church , capel church and hartfora church are of the same kind . all have the same general matter and form , the same ordinances and officers de jure , they differ not one from another in their general kind , having all the same common nature , and that they are distinguished specifically one from another ; is as evident boston church , hartford church , capel church , are disparata , and therefore opposita , and essentially distinguished one from another ; it is impossible that one should be the other . the assembly of saints at philippi are not essentially the same with those at ephesus ; those at ephesus are not the same with those at corinth . we have proved before that individuals are really , formally and essentially distinguished one from another . reason 6. if a congregational church communicate all his essential properties or proper adjuncts to individual churches , a congregational church is a catholike generical , universal church , and the genus of all individual churches : but a congregational church communicates all his essential properties or proper adjuncts to individual churches ; therefore a congregational church is a catholike , generical universal church , and the genus of all individual churches . the integrum doth not communicate all his propeties to every members ; a mans finger is not risible , is not indued with a power of laughter : but the genus comunicating his whole essence , communicates all his essential properties to his species , as we have heard . a congregational church communicates all his essential properties to individual churches . ecclesiastical ordinances , officers , seales , and censures , are the proper priviledges of a congregational church . and all these are to be found there . all the springs of god are there psal. 87. 7. there we may meet with jehovah himself the first being . all the water in springs is derived from the sea by secret pipes and channels under the earth . the first being is an infinite sea of being and goodness , and he communicates himself , and poureth out most glorious sweet influences of himself in his own ordinances , and wayes of his own appointment , and those who wait upon him herein , may drink of the rivers of eden , psal. 36. 8. one day here is better then a thousand . psal. 84. 10. it is cleare from this discourse : there is no catholike , integral , political church : for an integrum is species specialissima , and cannot be divided into species , as wee see the catholike church is . and therefore i shall add no more for the present . finis . errata . in the epistle , page 4. l. ul●-read cousultative . p. 6. l. 38. r. quae . p. 17. l. 2. r. invitation . p. 21. l. 18. for it , r. is . p. 37. l. 26. r. university . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a61677e-1160 ioh. 1. 42. iosh. 15. 6. & . 18. 17. 1 sam 7. 12. 1 sam. 17. 49 ▪ 50. rev. 13. notes for div a61677e-1730 {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , aristot. m. h●dson page 77. continue , of con & , t●nco , to hold together . m. hud●on p. 89. 90 , 91. observations on the first and second of the canons, commonly ascribed to the holy apostles wherein an account of the primitive constitution and government of churches, is contained : drawn from ancient and acknowledged writings. burnet, gilbert, 1643-1715. 1673 approx. 180 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 66 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a30396) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 108034) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1647:10) observations on the first and second of the canons, commonly ascribed to the holy apostles wherein an account of the primitive constitution and government of churches, is contained : drawn from ancient and acknowledged writings. burnet, gilbert, 1643-1715. 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text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion observations on the first and second of the canons , commonly ascribed to the holy apostles . wherein an account of the primitive constitution and government of churches , is contained . drawn from ancient and acknowledged writings . glasgow , by robert sanders , printer to the city and university , 1673. the first canon . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . a bishop shall be ordained by two or three bishops . a bishop . this word is sometime taken for a spy , so estathius ad homeri k. sometime for a defender ; so hector was called bishop of troy by homer , iliad 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . there was among the athenians a publick office so called : and in this sense , it was also used among the romans ; so cicero ad atticum , lib. 7. epist. 11. tells , that pompey would had him to be , quem tota compania & maritima ora habeant episcopum , ad quem delectus & summa negotii referatur , ff . de mun . & hon . leg . ult . parag . item episcopi sunt , qui praesunt pani & caeteris rebus vaenalibus . this term is sometime in the old testament . and clemens romanus epist. ad rom. proves bishop and deacon to be no new terms , from isai. 60.17 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but in our edition , we find : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( where , on the way , mark how different the present edition of the septuagint is , from that which clemens made use of ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is also psalm 109.8 . among the iews , he who was the chief of the synagogue , was called chazan hakeneseth , the bishop of the congregation ; and sheliach tsibbor , the angel of the church . and the christian church being modelled as near the form of the synagogue as could be , as they retained many of the rites , so the form of their government was continued , and the names remained the same . but more of this afterward . clemens romanus in his epistle , speaks only of bishops and deacons . polycarp again in his epistle , speaks only of presbyters and deacons ; where some object that it would seem , that both in the church of corinth , to which clement wrote , and in that of philippi , to which polycarp wrote , there were but two orders of churchmen , whom the one calls bishops , the other presbyters . but if polycarp's epistle be genuine , then these of ignatius , which he there mentions , must be so too , and in them the matter is past controversie . epiphanius lib. 3. baer . 75. tells , that at first there were only bishops and deacons , which he saith he had 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; and that ubi episcopi erant jam constituti , scripsit episcopis & diaconis . non enim omnia statim potuerunt apostoli constituere . presbyteris enim opus est & diaconis , per hos enim duos ecclesiastica compleri possunt ; ubi vero non inventus est quis dignus episcopatu , permansit locus sine episcopo . ubi autem opus fuit , & erant digni episcopatu , constituti sunt episcopi ; cum autem multitudo non esset , non inventi sunt inter ipsos , qui presbyteri constituerentur , & contenti erant solo episcopo in loco constituto . verum sine diacono impossibile est esse episcopum . so it seems , that from these profound histories which he had read , it appeared , that in some villages there were only presbyters and no bishops , because in those places none were found worthy of it . but certainly these places were obliged to depend upon some place where there was a bishop constitute : for if none were worthy to be bishops , much less were they worthy to constitute a church within themselves , and independent . it also appears , that in some places at first , they had no presbyters : and indeed where the number of christians was so small ( as no doubt it was in many places at first ) a bishop alone might well have served a whole city : but where the christians were more numerous , there were need of more hands , to assist the bishop in his work . as for that of polycarp's naming no bishop , but only presbyters and deacons , perhaps he wrote in the vacancy of the see : so we find many letters of cyprian's ad clerum romanum , when there was no bishop . besides , it is known that at first the names of bishop and presbyter were used promiscuously . presbyters were so called , not from their age , as they were men , but from the age of their christianity : for a neophite was not to be ordained , and the presbyters did jointly with the bishop , both rule and feed the flock . but some do stretch this too far , as if always the eldest presbyter had been chosen bishop . the commentaries upon the epistles , commonly called ambrose's , but truly hilary , the deacons ( of which i shall say nothing , it being now agreed among the criticks , that they are his ) upon the 4th of the eph. after he hath at length shewn the difference which was betwixt the churches in the apostles times , when they were not fully constitute , and the ages that succeeded , he tells how at first all in the clergy baptized and preached , and that on any day , or where they had opportunity . but afterwards deacons were restrained in this , and things were astricted to certain times and places . hinc est ergo ( saith he ) unde nunc neque diaconi in populo praedicant , nec clerici , nec laici baptizant . — ideo , non per omnia conveniunt scripta apostolica ordinationi , quae nunc in ecclesiâ est , quia haec inter ipsa primordia sunt scripta . nam & timotheum à se creatum presbyterum , episcopum nominat , quia primi presbyteri , episcopi appellabantur , ut recedente eo , sequens ei succederet . denique apud aegyptum presbyteri consignant , si praesens non sit episcopus : sed quia coeperunt praesentes episcopi indigni inveniri , ad primatus tenendos immutata est ratio , prospiciente concilio , ut non ordo , sed meritum crearet episcopum . multorum sacerdotum judicio constitutum , ne indignus temere usurparet , & esset multis scandalo . and like to this is , what he saith on 1 tim. 3. from which words , it would appear , that he thought the elder presbyter , without any election or ordination , succeeded unto the chair of the deceased bishop . but this is directly contrary even to what ierome himself saith : neither do we find any such constitution as that he mentions , either in the acts of the council of nice , or of any other . it is true , clemens romanus saith , that the apostles ordained their first fruits , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to be the bishops and deacons of them who should afterward believe : but he adds , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , trying them by the spirit ( that of discerning spirits being among their extraordinary gifts ) and though they ordained no neophyte , yet there is no reason to believe , that either they made the eldest christians , presbyters , or the eldest presbyters , bishops . the choice of matthias , and of the seven deacons , shews that it went not simply by age . st. iames the younger was bishop of ierusalem , and timothy was but young , when ordained . yet the difference of bishop and presbyter seems not to have been unknown to clemens , as appears from these savings of his , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 praepositis vestris subditi & seniores inter vos debito honore prosequentes . — 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . qui nobis praesunt revereamur , seniores inter nos honoremus , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . which by the words that follow , must certainly relate to some ecclesiastical constitution among themselves , to which he accommodates the terms of the temple hierarchy . all which i propose without any peremptory decision in this matter , submitting it to the judgment of the impartial reader ; for i know there are exceptions against these words , yet they do clearly imply a difference and subordination betwixt the presbyters , and their presidents : and what he saith of the ranks of the high priest , the priests , the levites , and the laicks , hath certainly a relation to the orders of the church . the next opinion about the origine of episcopacy , is that of ierome , and he hath given it very fully , both in his epistle to evagrius , and on the epist. to titus , cap. 1. he holds , that all things at first were governed in the church , communi presbyterorum consilio , and that the bishops were above the presbyters , non ex dispositione dominicâ , sed ex ecclesiae consuetudine ; and by divers arguments from scripture , he proves , that bishop and presbyter are one and the same , acts 20. they who v. 17. are called presbyters , are v. 28. called bishops . titus 1.5 . he left him to ordain elders , and v. 7. it is added , for a bishop , &c. whence he infers , that bishop and presbyter are one and the same . as also phil. 1. the apostle writes only to bishops and deacons . and 1 tim. 3. he gives the rules only to bishops and deacons . s. peter also called himself 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and s. iohn designs himself the elder . but he adds , after there arose schisms , and one said , i am of paul , &c. toto orbe decretum est , ut unus caeteris super imponeretur ad quem omnis ecclesiae cura pertineret , & schismatum semina tollerentur — ut schismatum plantaria evellerentur ad unum , omnis sollicitudo est delata . and ad evagrium , he tells how alexandriae à marco evangelist â usque ad heraclam & dionysium , presbyteri semper unum ex se electum , in excelsiori gradu collocatum episcopum nominabant . — quid enim excepta ordinatione facit episcopus , quod presbyter non facit . — et , ut sciamus traditiones apostolicas sumptas de veteri testamento ; quod aaron , & filii ejus , atque levitae , fuerunt in templo , hoc sibi & episcopi , & presbyteri , & diaconi vendicent in ecclesia . and from these words we may observe , that he accounted the difference of bishop and presbyter , an apostolical tradition , which came in place of the difference that was betwixt aaron and his sons : as also , that this began from the time of the apostles , and of mark the evangelist : that it was done to evite schism , and that it was appointed through the whole world : as also , that the whole care and chief power was in the hands of the bishop , of which he saith further , dial adv . luciferianos . ecclesiae salus in summi sacerdotis dignitate pendet , cui si non exors quaedam , & ab omnibus eminens detur potestas , tot in ecclesiâ efficientur schismata , quot sacerdotes . it may seem likewise probable , from him , that presbyters choosed their bishop out of their own number , and that in alexandria they made him bishop without any new ordination . and of this eutychius patriarcha alex. who was not very long after ierome , speaks more plainly , for he in his origines ecclesiae alexandrinae , published by selden , pag. 29.30 . tells , that there were twelve presbyters constitute by s. mark , and when the see was vacant , they did chuse one of their number to succeed , and to be their head , and the rest laid their hands upon him , and bless'd him : yet this cannot hold true , as shall afterwards appear . but all ignatius his epistles , are full of the subordination of presbyters to bishops , not without very hyperbolical magnifications of the bishops office. it is true , in the vulgar editions these expressions are much more frequent ; but in the medicean codex ( published by vossius , which agrees not only with the old latin one published by usher , but also with the citations of theodoret , and athanasius , and other ancient writers which they have taken out of them ) there is a great deal of the subordination of presbyters to bishops . ep. ad tral . he saith , necessarium est , quemadmodum facitis sine episcopo nibil operari . — omnes revereantur episcopum ut iesum christum existentem filium patris , presbyteros autem , ut concilium dei , & conjunctionem apostolorum . to the ephes. he bids them be subject 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and concludes that they should obey these 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . in his epist. to the magnesians , he saith , quantum episcopum quidem vocant , sine ipso autem omnia operantur : wherefore he adviseth them , ut omnia operentur praesidente episcopo in loco dei , & presbyteris in loco confessionis apostolorum . and there he speaks of the age of damas their bishop , who was but a young man , which he calls according to the vulgar edition , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but in the medicean codex , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , from which some will infer , that episcopacy was then newly invented , but suppose that were the true reading , which some question , who in this prefer the vulgar reading , it is clear from the whole epistle that he is speaking of the bishops age , and not of episcopacy . and from 2 tim. 2.22 . we see 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is properly youthful , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is that which is new . and what tho ignatius , who lived so near the apostles time , did call episcopacy a new order ? many other places to the same purpose of the difference among these offices occur through all his epistles , neither is there any room for debate : but if these epistles be his , the difference of bishop and presbyter hath begun in the apostolical times . but that debate would prove too long a digression here ; therefore i refer the reader , if he desire a full discussion of that question to the incomparably learned and exact defence of them , lately published by doctor pearson , whose harvest is so full , that he hath not so much as left work for a gleaner . that of the angel in the revelation , is brought by many , and that not without ground , to prove that there was some singular person in these churches to whom each epistle was directed , and we have a great deal of reason to believe that polycarp was then bishop of the church of smyrna . iren. lib. 3. cap. 3. and apud euseb. lib. 4. cap. 13. tells that polycarp was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . now irenaeus tells how he was polycarp his hearer and disciple , and had conversed with him in his youth , and had often heard him teach . and as it were great uncharitableness to suspect the truth of his narration in a matter of fact , so we cannot think he could have been mistaken in a matter of that importance . but whatever jealousie may fix upon irenaeus , there is no shadow of ground , for suspecting either the veracity , or good information of the church of smyrna , who ( giving an account of his martyrdom in an epistle inserted by euseb. in his history , lib. 4. cap. 14. ) call him bishop of the catholick church of smyrna . all that can be alledged against this , is , that in their stile bishop and presbyter were one and the same thing . but the contrary of this is clear from iranaeus , who speaks always of bishops as distinct from presbyters : and tho he sometimes call bishops presbyters , yet he never calls presbyters , bishops ; which is also the stile of these few writers of that age , who sometimes call bishops , presbyters . eusebius tells from the testimony of the church of lions , how he was first a presbyter in lions under pothinus : after whose martyrdom he succeeded him in the chair , and died bishop there . and if we will hear himself , lib. 3. cap. 3. when he is reckoning up the tradition of the faith from the apostles , he deduceth it by all the bishops who did sit in rome from the apostolick times : whence two things will follow ; one , that he judged there had been still bishops in that church . the other , that he looked on the bishop , as the chief depositary of the faith . further , euseb. lib. 5. cap. 24. sets down his epistle to victor bishop of rome , wherein he chides him for excommunicating the eastern bishops ; and there he lays the whole blame upon victor , without sharing it among the presbyters , and also commends the former bishops of rome for their greater gentleness ; whereby it plainly appears , that he judged that the power of discipline lay chiefly in the bishops hands . polycrates also ( apud euseb. lib. 5. hist. cap. 23. ) vindicates the practice of their church about the day of easter , not only from the example of the apostles among them , but of the seven bishops who preceded him in his see. from which we may not only infer , that there was but one bishop in a city , from the days of the apostles ; but that his authority was great , since what they did , passed for a precedent to their successors . and indeed the difference of bishop and presbyter , is so evpress in irenaeus , that the most learned assertors of parity , confess the change was begun before his time , which was in the end of the second century . now how this change could have been introduced , when there was neither council , nor secular prince to establish it , when churchmen were so pure ( polycarp an apostolical man , having died but about thirty years before ; besides many other apostolical men who had long survived ) when the church was in the fire of persecution , and so less dross could be among them ; when there was no secular interest to bait them to it : for on the contrary this subjected them to the first fury of the persecution , seems strange . and it is not easie to be imagined , or believed , how this could have been so suddenly received through all the churches , both eastern and western , and that there was none to witness against it ; and that neither the sincerity of some presbyters , nor the pride of others , should have moved them to appear for their priviledges against this usurpation : and how neither heretick , nor schismatick , save one , and that about two hundred years after , should have charged the church with this : on the contrary , all of them having their own bishops ; and how this government continued in so peaceable possession through the succession of so many ages , till of late , that even fundamentals are brought under debate ; if this superiority were either so criminal , as some hold it to be , or had not been introduced at least by some apostolical men , if not by the apostles themselves , will not be easily cleared . in the next century we have tertullian speaking clearly of the difference of bishops , presbyters and deacons , lib. de bapt . dandi quidem jus habet summus sacerdos , qui & episcopus , dehinc presbyteri & diaconi , non tamen sine episcopi authoritate , propter ecclesiae bonum . idem de praescript . advers . haer . cap. 32. caeterum si quae ( praescriptiones ) se audent inserere aetati apostolicae , ut ita videantur ab apostolis traditae . — edant ergo origines ecclesiarum suarum , evolvant ordinem episcoporum suorum , ita per successiones ab initio decurrentem , ut primus ille episcopus , aliquem ex apostolis , vel apostolicis viris , qui tamen cum apostolis perseverarent , habuerit authorem & antecessorem ; hoc enim modo ecclesiae apostolicae census suos deferunt , sicut smyrneorum ecclesia habens polycarpum , à ioanne collocatum refert : sicut romanorum à petro clementem ordinatum edit . proinde utique & caeterae exhibent , quos ab apostolis in episcopatu constitutos apostolici seminis traduces habeant ; confingant tale aliquid baeretici . he also lib. 4. cont . marcionem , cap. 5. saith , ordo tamen episcoporum ad originem recensus , in joannem stabit authorem . by which we see that he both judged bishops to be of an apostolical origene , and that he counted them different from presbyters . a little after him was clemens alex. who 6. strom. p. 667. speaking of the constitution of the christian churches , saith , there were among them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which he thinks was taken from the angelick glory , and from their oeconomy and administration . we shall also find through all cyprian his epistles this disparity so clear , that it cannot be denied , that yet we find him as condescending as any . epist. 6. writing to his clergy : he saith , solus rescribere nihil potui , quando à primordio episcopatus mei statuerim nihil sine consilio vestro , & sine consensu plebis meae , pivata gerere sententia . but even this looks like a yielding to a diminution of that plenitude of power to which he might have pretended , epist. 65. writing to , rogatian , who had advised with him concerning a deacon that had carried insolently toward him , he writes : pro episcopatûs vigore , & cathedrae authoritate , haberes potestatem , qua posses de illo statim vindicari . ( and about the end ) haec sunt enim initia baereticorum , & ortus atque conatus schismaticorum male cogitantium , ut sibi placeant , ut praepositum superbo tumore contemnant , sic de ecclesiâ receditur , sic altare profanum foris collocatur , sic contra pacem christi , & ordinationem , atque unitatem dei rebellatur . likewise we find epist. 31. written to cyprian , by the clerus romanus , the seat being then vacant , what sense they had of the bishop's power , when they say : post excessum nobilissimae memoriae fabiani , nondum est episcopus propter rerum & temporum difficultates constitutus , qui omnia ist a moderatur , & eorum qui lapsi sunt possit cum authoritate & consilio habere rationem . and if in any case we receive a testimony , it should be from the mouth of those who can only pretend to be injured . my next witness shall be dionysius of alexandria , whose same and authority was inferiour to none of the age he lived in . i do not bring his words to prove there were bishops in the church in his time , since that is denied by none : but to prove how full and absolute the authority of the bishops was then , and that the presbyters were simply determined by their commands . great care was used to keep the christian assemblies pure ; and therefore such as fell in scandalous sins , chiefly these who apostatised in the persecution , were not admitted to the communion of the faithful , but after a long and heavy penitence : and a question rising , what should be done with those who died before they finished their penitence : he in his letter to fabius bishop of rome , telling that signal story of serapion , shews that in his diocese the presbyters sent the eucharist to the sick who desired it , though they died before they had compleated their penitence : and he adds how this was by his authority , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . where from the stile of ● command given by him , which was the rule of his presbyters , and the rest of that epistle , it is as clear as any matter of fact can be , that the authority of bishops over their presbyters was then full , absolute , and undisputed . if we will believe eusebius , who certainly hath been a diligent and great collector , as any of all the ancients , the whole tract , both of his history and chronology , runs fully in this strain ; and he gives us the catalogues of the bishops of the patriarchal sees , from the days of the apostles to his own time . and tho it is not to be denied that he hath been too credulous in some instances ; yet it is hard to think he could have been mistaken in such a tract of so many particulars . and we see from the sixth canon of the council of nice , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . that the power of metropolitans over bishops , was then accounted by that council an ancient custom ; neither was there ever any opposition made to this before aërius , who upon that account is reckoned an heretick by epiph. lib. 3. haer . 75. and also by augustin ad quod vult deum , haer . 53. epiphanius adds , that he was an arrian , and gives the account of his opinion in this matter , thus : aërius being a presbyter in sebastia , was offended when eustathius was preferred before him to that bishoprick : and tho eustathius took all ways to gain him , and committed the xenodochium that was there to his inspection , yet aerius too deeply irritated at the preference , said : quid est episcopus ad presbyterum ; nihil differt hic ab illo , unus enim est honor , unus ordo , & una dignitas . imponit munus episcopus , ita etiam presbyter ; lavacrum dat episcopus , similiter & presbyter . dispensationem cultûs divini facit episcopus , facit & presbyter similiter ; sedet episcopus in throno , sedet etiam presbyter . by which he deceived many , and had divers followers : but it seems they have died with their author , for we hear no more of them . medina in the council of trent , numbred with aerius , jerome , ambrose , augustine , chrysostom , theodoret , primasius , and sedulius , as if they had been of the same mind , wherein he certainly spoke rashly , and was either ignorant or indeliberate . we have already considered both jerome and ambrose , or rather hilary the deacon , their opinions in this matter . all that is gathered from augustine , is , ep. ad hieronymum , where he saith : quanquam secundum honorem vocabulorum , quae jam usus obtinuit , episcopatus presbyterio major fit , multis tamen in rebus augustino hieronymus major est . whence some would infer that the difference of these was only in words , and brought in but by custom : but how thin and weak this is , it being but a smooth complement , will appear to all , especially if they set it in the balance with the great evidence that stands upon the other side . chrysostom . hom . ii. on i tim. when he is giving the reason , why the apostle passeth from bishops to deacons , without giving rules to presbyters , saith , the reason was , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and a little after , he taxeth what that little betwixt them was , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . but this is far from saying that they were all one ; and that there ought to be no difference betwixt them . chrysost. also in his first homily on the phil. i. cap. on the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , saith , quid hoc rei est ? an unius civitatis plures erunt episcopi ? nullo modo . verum sic presbyteros vocavit , tunc enim nomina invicem communicabant , & diaconus dicebatur episcopus . and there he shews that bishop and presbyter were taken promiscuously ; for which he cites that of timothy's being ordained by the imposition of the hands of the presbytery , which he saith is to be understood of bishops . quia presbyteri episcopum non ordinassent . ( and a little after ) etiam presbyteri olim appellabantur episcopi , & diaconi christi , & episcopi christi , unde nunc etiam multi presbyteri & diaconi scribuntur episcopi . but he adds , that in process of time , each had their proper names appropriated to them . oecumeneus and theophylact , in this , and all other things , follow chrysostom 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . as also primasius , who on i tim. 3. gives the reason , why the presbyters are not named . eos in episcoporum ordine comprehendit , quia secundus , imo pene unus est gradus . sedulius scotus on the i. of titus , saith verbatim , that which jerome hath on the same place , and so it is to be considered as all one with him on the matter . but theodoret's opinion is a little more perplext , who on i tim. tells , that the same persons were called sometimes presbyters , sometimes bishops : but these who are now called bishops , were then called apostles , and that in the progress of time they left the name of apostles , and the name of bishops was appropriated to them who were first called apostles . thus he . these words it seems dropped from him without consideration , for there is no shadow of ground to believe it was so ; otherwise how came it , that the apostle gave no rules for them , under that name . but these words are sufficiently tossed by petavius and wallo messalinus . and thus far we have an ingenuous account of the various sentiments of the fathers , about the disparity of bishops and presbyters . the next thing in this canon to be consider'd is , what is meant by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . it is unquestionable , that by this is understood ordination by imposition of hands , for all the ancients use 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 promiscuously : but criticks judge that by the former we are to understand all that pertained to the ordination , and the whole office of it , and that the latter is to be restrained to that particular rite of imposition of hands given in the ordination . nor do i remember of any place , where 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 stands for the election of churchmen , except in the fifth canon of laodicea , which discharges it to be in the presence of the hearers : and if we compare that with the 13th canon of the same council , which discharges the popular elections , we shall see the reason why they likewise forbid the elections to be in the peoples hearing , which was for avoiding tumults . balsamon on this canon refutes their mistake , who understood it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , who founded their gloss on that canon of laodicea , ( which zonaras and aristenus doth ) quae enim fit in ecclesia ordinatio per preces mysticas peragitur , etiamsi fiat coram multis . and he proves his gloss from the 4. canon of nice , which appoints the elections of the bishops to be by the whole bishops of the province , or by three at least . therefore this canon cannot be meant of the elections of bishops , since two suffice by this rule for a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; and by the recurring of this same word in the next canon , he confirms his assertion , since presbyters and deacons were not ( according to him ) elected by suffrages . whence we see , how groundless a nicety theirs is , who would distinguish them , as if the former had been the election , the latter the ordination . it is true 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is in the greek authors almost constantly taken for the election of magistrates , which was ordinarily done in greece by the extention or elevation of the hand ; so budaeus upon the word , and cicero pro flacco speaks of their psephismata porrigenda manu , profundendoque clamore concitata . but that distinction is not observed in sacred writings , in which these minute critical modes of speaking are not attended to , and since , before they were to lay on hands , they were to stretch forth their hands on the head of the person , this word is not improperly used for that action : and therefore , acts 14. 23. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is used of paul and barnabas their ordaining of elders , where it is clear , it cannot be meant of the election by the people , but of their ordination of pastors . this word in scripture is also used for an appointment , or election , acts 10. 41. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is taken for god's election ; and 2 cor. 8.19 . it is applied to these who were chosen to carry a message . as for the ordination of churchmen , it is nothing else but a solemn ceremony of blessing them , by laying on of hands . we find of old , that all who were called out for any divine service , were solemnly separated for it , so were both kings , priests , and prophets . and the law of nature saith , that to all functions for which a great veneration is due , there should be a solemn inauguration . the laying of the hand upon the head , was the rite of benediction , gen. 48. 14. jacob blessing joseph's children doth it with that ceremony : in like manner , deut. 34. 19. did moses bless joshuah . we see also by the sinners laying on their hands on the head of the sacrifice , that is was a ceremony used in the devoting of things to god , whence might rise that phrase among the latins caput devovere . and upon these accounts , this was appropriated to the ordination of churchmen , who are to be both blessed , and devoted to god. we find this ceremony also used in the new testament on many and different occasions ; sometimes when they healed diseases , mark 16. 8. they shall lay their hand on the sick , and they shall recover . and our lord usually touched the sick with his hand . acts 28. 8. s. paul lays his hands on publius . likewise , when they conferred the holy ghost on any who were baptized , they used this ceremony , so acts 8.17 . and 19. 6. and farther , when they appointed any for the ministery of the gospel , they separated and blessed them , by the laying on of hands ; so 1 tim. 4.15 . and 5.22 . and 2 tim. 1.6 . deacons were also ordained by this ceremony , acts 6. 6. as also when they sent any on a particular mission , though already sanctified for the work of the gospel , they laid hands on them : so acts 13. 3. paul and barnabas were ordained for the ministery of the gentiles . from all which it is clear that they used imposition of hands , as the constant ceremony of benediction , and as a concomitant of it , and not as a ceremony of it self significant and sacramental . among the ancients , imposition of hands was used not only in confirmation , which is undoubted , and is by many founded on that of hebrews 6.2 . where laying on of hands being joined with baptism , and reckoned among foundations , seems to be common to all christians . but they also used it in the receiving of penitents : so 19th canon of laodicea . as for the form of ordaining bishops , we see here it was to be done by bishops , which is agreed to by all , only eutychius seems to say , that in alexandria presbyters ordained the bishop . but as for the number of the bishops who were to ordain , this seems to be later , and more sutable to the state of the churches after they were constituted , than while they were under persecution . the number of three was appointed , conc. arel . 1. can. 21. nic. can. 4. arel . 2. can. 5. carth. 2. can. 12. and see more of this gratian dist . 64. this seems to have been founded on timothy's ordination , which is said to have been done by the presbytery , which chrysostom understands of a company of bishops . but it is not probable , that in the time of persecution , when bishops neither durst leave their own flocks , nor meet in any number , this was then observed ; and divers accounts are given of ordinations , where we hear only of one bishop ordaining . gregory thaumaturg was ordained by fidimus bishop of amasia , who went to the wilderness to seek him . and there are many instances among the lives of the solitaries , of such as were brought to a bishop , and ordained by him , without any other assisting him . so synesius epist. 67. tells how siderius was ordained a bishop , only by philo bishop of cyrene ; and tho he call that a transgression of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and confesseth it was not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , since he was neither ordained in alexandria , nor by three bishops ; yet he justifies it from the necessity of the times wherein such freedom of assemblies was not safe . and gregory the great allowed augustine to ordain alone in england ; who upon that did ordain some bishops alone , as beda relates . dionysius the areopagite cap. 5. de eccles. hierar . giving the account of the ordination of bishops , represents it as done by one person . anno 555 after vigilius bishop of rome his death , pelagius who got himself made his successor , being suspected of accession to his death , could only get two bishops , to wit , joannes perusinus , and bonus ferentinus , who with andreas presbyter of ostia , laid hands on him . and here is a presbyter laying hands on a bishop . the church of rome , at this day , ordinarily dispenseth with this , so that one bishop and two abbots do often ordain bishops . the areopagite loc . cit . gives the account of the bishops ordination , whom he always calls 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , thus : he who was to be ordained , was brought to another bishop , and kneeling before the altar , the gospels were laid on his head , and the bishops hand , and so he was consecrated with a holy prayer , and then marked with the sign of the cross ; and last of all , saluted by the bishop , and whole holy order . his theory on this is : their coming to the altar , shews the subjecting of their whole life to god. laying on of hands , is as a father's blessing of his child . the sign of the cross signifies , that they are to follow christ , even to the cross . their salutation signifies their union one with another : and the gospel is laid on the bishops head , because he being the head of the hierarchy , is to illuminate the rest . with this agrees the fourth council of carthage , where the rules are at length set down for the tryals and qualifications of bishops : and canon first , at the end , we have , cum in bis omnibus , examinatus , fuerit inventus plene instructus , tunc cum consensu clericorum & laicorum , & conventu totius provinciae episcoporum , maximeque metropolitani vel authoritate vel praesentiâ , ordinetur episcopus . and canon second : episcopus quum ordinatur , duo episcopiponant & teneant evangeliorum codicem super caput & cervicem ( aliter verticem ) ejus , & uno super eum fundente benedictionem , reliqui omnes episcopi , qui adsunt , manibus suis caput ejus tangant . and of this see gratian dist . 23. & 77. where we find a bishop was to be five years a lector or exorcist , fourteen years an acoluth or subdeacon , and five years a deacon , ere he be a presbyter , and then he may hope for the highest degree . but in another chapter it is said , he must be ten years a presbyter , ere he can be a bishop . and in another chapter , none could be a deacon under twenty five years of age . but by the civil law , the age both of bishop and presbyter is the same ; to wit , thirty five . these previous degrees were introduced , and the years of tryal in them were appointed , that all might be prepared and rightly formed before they were admitted to the government of the church . among other ceremonies in the ordination of bishops , in some places they were anointed with the chrisma . nazianz . orat. 20. tells , that his father had so anointed basile : and orat. 5. tells , that himself was so ordained : but it seems that that was a custom peculiar to that country , since we meet not with it so early elsewhere . as for the elections of bishops , we have seen from ierome and eutychius , how the presbyters did choose the bishop . but in africk , the synod with the clergy , and the people did it ; of which we have a full account from cyprian , epist. 68. de traditione divinâ & apostolicâ observatione tenendum est , & observandum quod apud nos quoque , & fere per provincias universas tenetur , ut ad ordinationes rite celebrandas , ad cam plebem cui praepositus ordinatur , episcopi ejusdem provinciae proximi quique conveniant , & episcopus delegatur plebe praesente , quae singulorum vitam plenissime novit , & uniuscujusque actum de ejus conversatione perspexerit . and a little before , he saith , plebs ipsa maxime habet potestatem vel elegendi dignos sacerdotes , vel indignos recusandi . and from that of numb . 10. where moses stript aaron , and clothed eleazer before all the congregation , he proves that it was of divine authority , that the sacerdotal ordinations should not be , nisi sub populi assistentis conscientiâ , ut plebe praesente , vel detegantur malorum crimina , vel bonorum merita praedicentur , & sit ordinatio justa & legitima , quae omnium judicio & suffragio erit examinata . and this course , he saith , held in the ordination both of bishops , priests and deacons . and epist. 33. he excuseth himself , that he had ordained one a lector without the consent of his people , though he had been a confessor in the persecution . the epistle is directed to the presbyters , deacons , and the whole people , and begins : in ordinationibus clericis solemus vos ante consulere , & mores ac merita singulorum communi consilio ponderare . all that we meet with concerning this in scripture , is the chusing of the deacons by the people , acts 6. for that of acts 14.23 . is clearly misapplied . 1 tim. 3. a deacon should be first approved , and titus 1.6 . a bishop must be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; and thereby it appears , that certainly some enquiry was to be made into his conversation , which at least must have been a promulgation before-hand . so we find conc. chalc. can . 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and lampridius in the life of alexander severus tells , that he used such a course before he made any governor of a province . dicebatque grave esse non fieri in provinciarum rectoribus , cum id christiani & fudaei facerent in praedicandis sacerdotibus , qui ordinandi sunt . but there were frequent disorders in these elections , which occasioned the 13. canon of the council of laodicea , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : and by the canon goeth before that , the election of bishops is committed to the bishops of the province , which was also established by the council of nice , fourth and sixth canon . likewise justinian , nov. 123. cap. 1. excludes the people from the election of the bishop , but leaves it to the clergy , and the primores civitatis , to name a list of three , out of which the metropolitan was to choose one . the bishops were to be ordained in the presence of the people , where every one might propose his exceptions , why he might not be ordained , which were to be examined before they proceeded to the ordination . so conc. antioch . canon 19. and carthag . canon 49. and iustinian tit . 1. nov. const. 1 , 2.17 . according to photius in nomocan , tit . 1. cap. 8. yet these popular elections were not wholly taken away , and at least the peoples consent was asked : but there were great disorders in these elections . nazianz. orat. 14. at his father's funeral instanceth them in two cases at cesarea , where his father was present ; in which there were factions at the election of the bishop : in one of them it was that basil was chosen . ammian mercellin tells what tumults were at rome in the elections of their bishops , of whom he saith , supra modum humanum ad rapiendam sedem episcopalem ardebant : so that at the election of damasus the faction betwixt his electors , and those that were for urcisinus , brake out into such a tumult , that there were in basilicâ sicinini , ubi ritus christiani est conventiculum , centum triginta septem peremptorum cadavera reperta , lib. 27. and he adds , it was no wonder they struggled so about it , because id adepti futuri sunt ita securi , ut ditentur oblationibus matronarum , procedantque vehiculis insidentes , circumspecte vestiti , epulas curantes profusas , adeo ut eorum convivia regales superent mensas , qui esse poterant beati revera , si urbis magnitudine despecta quam vitiis opponunt , ad imitationem quorandam provincialium antistitum viverent , quos tenuitas edendi potandique parcissimè , vilit as etiam indumentorum & supercilia humum spectantia perpetuo numini , verisque ejus cultoribus , ut puros commendant & verecundos . because of those disorders in elections , it was that nazianz. orat. 19. wished , that the elections were only or chiefly in their hands who served at their altar . sic enim nunquam ecclesiis male esset . therefore he desires they should no more be committed iis qui opibus ac potentiâ pollent aut plebis impetui ac temeritati , atque etiam plebeiorum vilissimo aut contemptissimo cuique , as had been before . adding , that the disorders which were in such elections , made him loath his life , and long to be in a wilderness . one effect of these confused elections was , that some who were not presbyters , nay not so much as christians , were chosen bishops : for orat. 20. on basil , when he tells how basil was first ordained a presbyter , he regrates that many bishops oft-times leaped into the chair without any preceding degree , which was contrary to nature and reason , since among saylors none is made at first a pilot : nor is there any at first made a general among soldiers . nunc autem periculum est , ne ordo omnium sanctissimus , omnium maximè sit ridiculus : non enim virtute magis , quam maleficio , & scelere sacerdotium paratur , nec digniorum , sed potentiorum throni sunt . adding , that none is called a physician , before he understand diseases , nor a painter before he can mix colors . antistes contra facile invenitur , non elaboratus , sed recens . — uno die sancto fingimus , eosque sapientes & eruditos esse jubemus , qui nihil didicerunt : nec ad sacerdotium quicquam prius contulerunt quam velle . and orat. 19. he tells how in cesarea at an election of a bishop , his father and other bishops being present , there arose a great sedition about it , which could not be easily composed , partly thorow the peoples fervor about the faith , partly thorow the eminence of the chair , which made the contentions greater . but at length the whole people with one consent made choice of a person of great quality , but not yet baptized , to be their bishop : from which he was very averse , but they took him by force , and by the assistance of some soldiers then in the city , haled him to the church , and desired the bishops , not without threats , to ordain him : whereupon they overawed by fear and force , first purified him , and then set him upon the throne ; but more with their hands than with their heart . chrysost . also lib. 3. de sacerdotio , cap , 15. shews the evil of these popular elections , and that in them they looked more to riches and honor , than to true worth . but where the synodical elections were set up , the people were not wholly excluded from their interest in the choice , as we see particularly in the churches of milan and hippo. neither were these synodical elections so regular as nazianzen hoped , which appears from two famous instances of nectarius and ambrosius . nectarius came to the council of constantinople in the company of diodorus bishop of tarsus : and then it was , that upon some differences ( as you shall see afterwards ) nazianzen retired from constantinople . and nectarius thinking to go home to his country , came to his bishop diodorus to ask his blessing , and receive his commands . but at that time all diodorus thoughts were , how a fit person might be found for constantinople , and looking on nectarius , considering his gravity , his gray hairs , and sweet temper , he thought ( it seems by a divine inspiration ) what if he were made bishop . and thereupon pretending another errand , he took him to the bishop of antioch , and whispering him in the ear , bid him consider how fit a person nectarius might prove for the bishoprick of constantinople . meletius laughed in his heart at diodorus his simplicity , who should think of nectarius , when so many famous men had been named for that see by their bishops . after that , theodosius the emperor commanded the synod to give him in writing a list of such persons as were judged fit for that chair , which being laid upon miletus to draw , he to gratifie diodorus , puts nectarius among them . the emperor at first reading began to think of nectarius : but at second reading , positively concluded that he must be the bishop . the synod was amazed , and began to enquire about him , and found that he was but a catechumen , whereupon they desired the emperour to change his mind ; but he continuing resolute , the synod yielded : and after they had baptized him , they ordained him bishop . and by this we see that the synod made the list , but the emperour named the person . near of kin to this is the story of ambrose . after auxentius the bishop of milan his death , valentinian the emperor called a council of bishops , and appointed them to chuse some holy and fit person to be bishop there , cujus authoritati & nos subjiciamur , cujusque reprehensiones ferre non dubitemus . etenim ut imperatores nos simus , & rerum potiamur , homines tamen esse nos , & humanis lapsibus obnoxios fatendum nobis est . but the synod referred the election back to him , that he might name the person , yet he refused it , and told them , it was their business , adding , ego vero , id & viribus meis majus & ab officio meo alienum judico . but as they went to consult about this , the people of milan did all run together to the church to chuse their bishops , some of them were arrians , and others orthodox , and each party was contending to have the bishop chosen of their own side . at that time ambrose a noble roman of the consular order , was prefect there , to whom valentinian , when he sent him to that charge ; said , vade , age non ut iudex , sed ut episcopus . he fearing that the concourse of the people might end in a tumult , came among them to prevent that , and with great sweetness exhorted them to calmness and unity ; whereupon they much taken with his speech , cryed out with one accord ; let ambrose be bishop . but he resisted this as much as he could , and did chide them for their indeliberate choice of a secular person , who was a stranger to ecclesiastical affairs , and not so much as initiated into the faith , for he was not then baptized . yet the synod approving of their election , he was first baptized , and then ordained bishop . but paulinus adds , that after his baptism , he past in order through all the ecclesiastical degrees , and on the eighth day was ordained bishop there . thus went the synodical elections : but it was a great while before that , even in the elections of the bishops of rome , the people were wholly barred from their priviledges . and of all this see at large antonius de dominis , lib. 3. de repub. eccles. cap. 3. metropolitans were chosen by the patriarchs , and the patriarchs by the emperours : but in some cases , the emperours took the elections simply to themselves ; at other times , they reserved only the ratification of them to themselves : and so for a great while , the elections of the bishops of rome were to be ratified , either by the emperors of the east , or by their exarchs at ravenna . and after that charles the great assumed the empire of the west , it was decreed in a synod at rome , that the election of the roman bishop belonged to him : and accordingly he was in possession of it , though his successors did simply slip from it . now the elections are in the hands of the canons and prebends , which is an art to make the election go what way the superior will. but the chapters chusing the bishop , was not known to the ancients , it belonging to the whole college of the presbyters without distinction . and all who desire the restitution of church discipline , think , that the erecting of provincial synods , and giving the power of electing bishops to them , is both the best method , and most agreeable to all antiquity . a see was not to lie vacant over three months , nor the ordination of a bishop delayed , except upon an inexcusable necessity , otherwise the metropolitan was liable to censure , conc. chalc. can. 25. and in the council of sardice , can. 10. osius proposed , that none should be bishop till he had passed through all the inferior degrees , and had finished the ministery of a lector , deacon , and presbyter ; and to this all the bishops there present gave their consent : but by the instances already marked , we see that this order was not universally observed . nov. 123. it is decreed , that a bishop be at least three months among the clergy , before he be ordained , that he may be instructed in the ecclesiastical ministery and service . another custom there had been of bishops ordaining successors for themselves : so euseb. lib. 7. cap. 26. or according to the greek division , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . tells how theotecnus bishop of cesarea , ordained anatolius to be his successor , and that for some time they were both bishops together . in other places they did not ordain , but only design their successors . yet augustin was ordained bishop of hippo by his predecessor valerius ; but he apologizes for this , epist. 110. and saith , that he did not know that it was contrary to the council of nice , which decreed that there should be but one bishop at once in a city . and from that epistle we see it was ordinary for bishops to design their successors , which was done to prevent the tumults were usually in elections . and augustin tells us of a disorder which had been in a neighbor town , because the bishop , though he had designed his successor , yet had not published it . therefore he to evite that hazard , designed eradius to be his successor , to which all the people assented . yet lest this might have opened a door for bishops to have transmitted their sees to their kindred or friends , it was decreed in the council of antioch , can. 23. that any such designation of successors made by bishops , should be declared null , and that the election of the bishop should be in the hands of the bishops of that synod where the see lay . there might be but one bishop in a city for unities sake , yet sometimes there were coadjutors : so nazianzen was coadjutor to his father . and augustin in his second conference with the donatists , offered that if the donatists overcame , then they should yield their bishopricks to them ; but if the donatists were overcome by them , and so should return to the community of the church , they should admit them to be conjunct bishops with them . so was the schism in antioch betwixt the meletianists and the paulianists setled , that both should be bishops together , and all should obey him that survived ; to this they all agreed , confirming it by oath . yet flavianus , one of miletus his disciples , after his death , got himself chosen bishop , but was in that condemned by all . it is true , that the novatians in divers sees had distinct bishops , but these were schismaticks . yet in the beginning of christianity , it would appear that there were more bishops in one place : for tertullian and epiphanius assert , that clemens was ordained bishop of rome by s. peter . and yet all reckon linus to have succeeded him . so also evodius is generally reckoned to be the first bishop of antioch ; thus eusebius , origen and ierome . yet chrysostom and theodoret say , that ignatius was ordained there by s. peter . if there be any authority in clemens his constitutions , they offer a clear account of this , that evodius was appointed bishop of the circumcision , and ignatius bishop of the uncircumcision ; and that after evodius's death , both churches grew in one . the same also is applied to the difference about linus , and clemens by others , as if linus had been bishop of the circumcision , and clemens of the uncircumcision ; and that after cletus's death they all grew in one , and submitted to clemens . however , it is clear that in every church there was but one bishop : and accordingly was decreed , conc. nic. can. 8. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . by which stile we see they guarded against the disorder of two bishops in a city , as a thing undoubtedly irregular , which hath been accounted so before that time : so that this of one bishop in a city , is not to be accounted an act of that council ; but a reference to some former act , or at least an universally received practice . yet the first succession of the bishops of rome , tho always perplexed , is much more so , from the most learned vossius ( his observations in his letter to rivet , subjoined to doctor pearson's vindiciae of ignatius his epistles : ) who from all the manuscripts of damasus his lives of the popes , informs us , that s. peter did ordain both linus and cletus bishops of rome : and after some enquiry into the matter , he concludes , that at first there were three bishops in rome at once , linus , cletus , anencletus . in the next succession , he places cletus , anencletus and clemens ; but anencletus surviving both the other , sate alone at rome : after whom there was but one bishop there . yet i know not if damasus ought to have such authority , that upon his testimony we are bound to believe a thing so different from the accounts given by elder and more unquestioned writers . all ambitus was condemned in bishops ; but it seems that in nazianzen's time it was too common : for he in his apologetick regrates how some 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , tanquam non virtutis exemplum , sed victûs parandi occasionem & subsidium hunc ordinem esse judicantes : ac non munus referendis rationibus obnoxium , sed imperium ab omni censurâ immune . and a little after : prius fere quam primam comam abjecetimus , puerilique more balbutire desierimus . — si duo aut tria pia verba didicerimus , eaque non ex lectione , sed ex sola auditione bausta , an t davidi paulum operae dederimus , aut pallium scite contraxerimus , aut zonâ tenus philosophati fuerimus , pietatis quandam speciem nobis illinentes , ô praefecturam ! ô elatum animum ! justinian . const. nov. 137. cap. 1. complains , that absque examinatione , atque honestatis vitae testimonio ordinantur episcopi , presbyteri , & diaconi , &c. and there divers places out of nazianzen's apologetick are cited , to shew that ordination should be gone about cum omni diligentiâ atque rigore , cad . de epis. & cler. leg . 31. tantum ab ambitu debet esse sepositus , ut quaeratur cogendus , rogatus recedat , invitatus effugiat , sola sibi suffragetur necessitas excusandi . profecto enim est . indignus sacerdotio , nisi fuerit invitatus , invitus . chrysostom in his third book de sacerdotio , cap. 10. among the qualifications of a bishop , reckons for a chief one 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . nam si ad eum principatum adipiscendum vehementi animi affectu rapietur , eo adepto impotentiorem sane suae ambitionis flammam incendet : ac vi tandem captus , ut sibi adeptum honorem stabiliat , nulli non peccato serviet : seu adulandum , seu servile quidpiam atque indignum sustinendum , seu res magno pecuniae sumptu tentanda : nam quod nonnulli caedibus ecclesias compleverint , contaminarintque tum ejus honoris gratiâ depugnantes , civitates aliquot funditus everterunt dicere hic praetermitto , ne quibusdam videar ea in medium afferre quae fide majora sunt . and to preoccupy the objection from 1 tim. 1.3 . he adds , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and among other advantages of one who wants this too forward desire , he reckons this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and with a great deal of ingenuity , he confesseth how strong that unlawful desire was in himself , which frighted him from entering in holy orders . how far nazianzen was from all ambitus , the whole tract of his life doth fully discover . he was no sooner ordained a presbyter , than he with his friend basile , at that time likewise ordained , fled to pontus , where they lived a great while , purifying their souls in the exercise of prayer and mortification . after which they returned home . nazianzen out of compassion to his father who pressed his return , and basile out of zeal to religion , and the church then out of zeal to religion , and the church then over-run with arrians ; s. basile by the means of old nazianzen , was chosen and ordained biship of cesarea , and he ordained nazianzen bishop of sasime : but he , what through his love of retirement , what because sasime being a stage of the waggoners , was full of stirs and disorders , immediately left that place , in which he was set against his heart . and some say that he never ordained any in it , nor consecrated the eucharist while he was there : neither could ever his father obtain of him to return to it . and when his father dealt earnestly with him , not without threatning of imprecations , that he would accept the charge of nazianzen in his old age , he with great aversion yielded to his entreaty , declaring he would stay no longer there than his father lived . during which time , he managed that see with a great deal of success and applause : but after his father died , which was in the hundred year of his age , he continued a little longer there , till his mother who survived her husband sometime , died also . and then he retired to a house of holy virgins in seleucia , that in his absence they might chuse another bishop ; but returning thither a little after , he found they had chosen none ; yet he continued stiff as an oak , and neither prayers nor tears could prevail with him . afterward constantinople was in great disorder through the heresies of was in great disorder through the heresies of apollinaris and macedonius lately sprung up , beside the arrian , which was there before : and he being inwardly called of god to go thither , and prompted by his friend basile , and invited by many bishops , and honourable citizens , went and laboured among them : not behaving himself as their bishop , but as a temporary overseer . and though all the churches were then possess'd by the hereticks , none remaining for the orthodox , save only anastasia ; yet through his labours the face of affairs was quickly altered in constantinople . when theodosius came to constantinople , he possessed him of the great church : and all the people desired that he might be enthroned , the emperour concurring with them in that : but he declined it : and though the emperour took great pleasure in him , yet he went seldom to the palace . then was the second general council called to constantinople , and he was by the authority of miletus bishop of antioch ( of whom we made mention before ) confirmed in the bishoprick of constantinople by the council . but after this , there arose some contention by timotheus bishop of alexandria , who came later to the council , and alledged upon the prerogative of his see , that that matter should not have been decided without him . upon this , hot and sharp contentions arose among the bishops , not so much out of any displeasure they had at nazianzen , as out of their mutual jealousies , though he that writes his life , faith , that this was occasioned by miletus his death . but therein he was mistaken ; for miletus out-lived not only this action , and gave the lift to theodosius of those who were designed to succeed him ( sozom. lib. 7. cap. 8. ) but he also out-lived the council , and subscribed its acts , and died a little after that in constantinople . upon this contention , nazianzen finding many of those who had before established him , beginning to resile , told them how at first he had refused that government , tho the church there had been by his labours and pains setled , and enlarged ; but for that he expected his reward from god : yet it seemed strange to him , that after he had been forced to accept of it , out of his love to the flock , and pressed to it with their united suffrages , they should now think of undoing what themselves had done . this he said , not that he desired riches , or the nobleness of that seat , and to be called bishop of the imperial city : but he confessed , the loss of his children could not but affect him : besides , he feared they might seem to proceed out of envy or lenitv . however , if they desired it , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . — mihi quidem solitudo & olim chara fuit & nunc eft : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . whereupon he went out , and retired from the house wherein he dwelt , to one more secret . but many of the people flocked about him , and with tears besought him to have compassion on them : yet he finding the dissention about him growing hotter among the bishops , went again to the council , and charged them by the holy trinity , that they would compose their differences peaceably , adding : but if i seem the occasion of any dissention among you , i am not more worthy than the prophet jonas : throw me in the sea , and these raging billows shall quickly be calmed , since i shall choose any thing you please , so if i be innocent , for drawing you to agreement on my account . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . after which he went to the emperor , and with great earnestness begged his permission to retire : which having obtained , he called the clergy and people together , and with many tears took leave of them , charging them to continue stedfast in the faith . this being done , he retired to arianze , a village of cappadocia , which belonged to him by inheritance , and continued in his retirement , giving himself to his poetry , till he died in an old age . that which next occurs to be considered is , in what places bishopricks were founded , and bishops setled . we find in all cities where the gospel was planted , and churches constituted , that bishops were also ordained . among the jews , where ever there were an hundred and twenty of them together , there did they erect a synagogue . compare with this acts i. 15. where the number of those that constituted the first christian church , is the same . so it is like where ever there was a competent number of christians together , that a church was there setled . yet in some villages there were churches and bishops ; so there was a bishop in bethany : and s. paul tells of the church of cenchrea , which was the port of corinth . it is true , some think that the church of corinth met there . so these of philippi went out of the city by a river side to prayer , acts 16.13 . but we find acts 18. that there was a synagogue in corinth , and that s. paul stayed in the house of justus , near the synagogue : and therefore there is no reason to think that the christians should have had their meeting without the city , since there was no persecution then stirring : and neither in the acts , nor in any of the epistles , is there mention made of their going out to cenchrea . therefore it is probable that the church of cenchrea was distinct from corinth : and since they had phebe for their deaconness , it is not to be doubted but they had both bishops and deacons . from the several cities the gospel was dilated and propagated to the places round about . but in some countries we find the bishopricks very thick set . they were pretty throng in africk , for at a conference which augustine and the bishops of that province had with the donarists , there were of bishops two hundred eighty six present , and one hundred and twenty absent , and sixty sees were then vacant , which make in all four hundred sixty and six : there were also two hundred seventy nine of the donarists bishops . sozom. lib. 7. hist. cap. 19. speaking how differently constituted some churches were , he tells how in scythia , though there were many cities , yet there was but one bishop . but in other nations there were bishops even in their villages , as he knew to be among the arabians and cyprians . theodoret tells , that there were eight hundred parishes within his diocese , epist. 113. but it is to be observed , that in those places where the gospel was latest of planting , the bishopricks are fewer , and consequently larger . it is reported that in the vast tract of the abyssin churches , there is one only bishop at abuna . balsamon on the 57. canon of laodicea tells , that at that time in some churches of the east , it was neither safe nor expedient for them to have bishops : and they were supplied by visiters , sent them from other bishops , so that they had no bishops of their own : which was occasioned both by their poverty , and the smalness of their number , yet they were under the care and charge of other bishops . some churches lay long vacant and without bishops . in carthage , when hunnerick invaded them , they wanted a bishop twenty four years : and he offering them one , providing the arrians might have the free exercise of their religion among them , they answered , that upon these terms ecclesia non delectatur episcopum habere , so victor lib. 2. pers . v and. when miletus was driven out of antioch , for ten years together diodorus and flavian two presbyters ruled that church , theodor. lib. 4. hist. cap. 23. some places are alledged to have had the gospel long before there were bishops among them , and particularly scotland , for major lib. 2. cap. 2. faith , per sacerdotes & monachos , sine episcopis scoti in fide eruditi erant . the time of our conversion to the faith is reckoned to have been an. 263. and palladius reckoned the first bishop came not for an hundred and seventy years after that in the year 430. fordown in his chronicle , lib. 3. cap. 8. faith , ante palladii adventum habebant scoti fidei doctores , & sacramentorum administratores , presbyteros solum , vel monachos ritum sequentes ecclesiae primitivae . these were called culdes , though in some bulls they be celli dei. boethius thinks it is culdei , quasi cultores dei : but others judg that it is from the cells wherein they lived , which were held in great esteem , and after their death were turned into churches : and from thence they think the name kil is to this day so much used , as kilpatrick , kilmarnock , kilbride , &c. of these boethius saith , that by common suffrage , they made choice of one of their number to be chief over them , who was called episcopus scotorum : so lib. 6. fol. 92. this is contradicted by buchanan lib. 5. who faith , that before palladius his coming , ecclesiae absque episcopis per monachos regebantur , minori quidem cum fastu , & externâ pompâ , sed majore simplicitate & sanctimoniâ . but all our old manuscripts being gone , it will not be easie to come to a decision about this matter . the gothick churches are said to have been planted and constituted before ulphilas their first bishop came unto them for seventy years together . in the beginning the bishop's whole charge was called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and by the strain of ignatius his epistles , especially that to smyrna , it would appear , that there was but one church , at least but one place , where there was one altar and communion in each of these parishes : for he saith , there was one bishop , one church , and one altar . and cyprian phraseth the erecting of a schism , by the erecting of an altar against an altar : which seems to import , that there was but one altar in the bishops parish . while the number of the christians was but small , they might well have all met together in one place ; but as they increased , and the persecutions grew upon them , they must have had several meeting places , and consequently several persons to preside and officiate in these meetings . but damasus and platina reckon , that evaristus who was bishop of rome about the 106 year , was the first , qui titulos in urbe româ presbyteris divisit : so that before his time , the presbyters have all officiated here or there indefinitely according to the bishop's appointment . and evaristus seems to have given them assignments to particular places . as for the meaning of the word tituli , it is to be considered that the christians met about the places where the martyrs were buried , and so their meeting places were called memoriae martyrum . now upon burials some title or inscription being usually made , it followed that the place of the burial or gravestone was called titulus among the latins : so gen. 35.20 . jacob's erecting a pillar upon rachels grave , is rendred by the vulgar latin , erexit titulum super sepulchrum : and gen. 28.18 of jacob's stone at bethel , it is said , erexit in titulum , and 2 sam. 18. absalom his pillar is called titulus : hence it is that evaristus his dividing of the titles is to be understood of his giving particular assignments of several churches to presbyters . the next thing to be examined is , what were the actions appropriated to bishops . if we believe ierome , the bishop did nothing which presbyters might not do , except ordination : by which we see , that he judged ordination could not be done without the bishop . athanasius in his second apology inserts among other papers , an epistle of the synod of alexandria , mentioning that ischyras his ordination by coluthus being questioned and examined , and it being found that coluthus had never been ordained a bishop , but that he had falsly pretended to that title and character , all the ordinations made by him were annulled : and ischyras with such others who were so ordained , were declared laicks . which is an undeniable instance , that at that time , it was the general sense of the church , that none but a bishop might ordain . neither in any author do we meet with an instance of any that were ordained by presbyters , save one , that cassian , who was about the 500. year , collat. 4. cap. 1. gives of one paphnutius a presbyter in the desert of scetis , who delighting in the vertues of one daniel , ut quem vitae meritis & gratiâ sibi parem noverat , coaequare sibi etiam sacerdotii ordine festinaret . — eum presbyterii honori provexit . but what a few devout solitaries might do in a desert and undiscerned corner , will be no precedent for a constituted church : else we may allow of baptism with sand , for that was once done in a desert . but socrates had another opinion of this , who lib. 1. cap. 27. tells , that ischyras did a thin 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and in the third council of toledo , set down by gratian , dist . 23. cap. 14. this canon was made . quorundam clericorum dum unus ad presbyterium duo ad levitarum ministerium sacrarentur , episcopus oculorum dolore detentus , fertur manum suam super eos tantum imposuisse , & presbyter quidam illis contra ecclesiasticum ordinem benedictionem dedisse , sed quia jam ille examini divino relictus , humano judicio accusari non potest , ii qui supersunt gradum sacerdotii vel levitici ordinis quem perverse adepti sunt , amittant . by which we see how far they were from allowing of any ordination , wherein a bishop had not intervened . it is further clear , that the bishop was looked upon as the pastor of the flock , who was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and that presbyters or deacons could finish nothing , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and that he was to give an account of the souls of the people : and indeed in these days a bishoprick was onus more than honos . the common treasury of the church was also committed to his care , so infra can. 4. and as the offerings of the faithful were laid down at the apostles feet , acts 4.3.4 . so were the collectae , and the other goods of the church laid in their hands . for all the goods os the church and collectae , were at first deposited in the bishop's hand , and distributed by him , tho afterwards there was an oeconomus appointed for that work . ignatius epist. ad magnes . tells , that they were to do nothing without their bishop . and ad smyrn . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and 5. canon of laodicea , they might no nothing , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . idem . can. 19. arel . 1. as for baptism , tertull , de bapt . saith , dandi quidem jus habet summus sacerdos , qui & episcopus , dehinc presbyteri & diaconi , non quidem sine episcopi authoritate , propter ecclesiae bonum , quo salvo salva pax est , alioquin laicis etiam jus est . firmilian ad cyprianum , which is reckoned the 75. among cyprian his epistles , faith , majores natu ( and by what is a little after , where he calls these bishops , it is clear he means not of presbyters ) in ecclesiâ praesidebant , & baptizandi , & manum imponendi , & ordinandi , potestatem possidebant . pacian . serm . de bapt. lavacro peccata purgantur , chrismate spiritus super funditur , utraque , purgantur , chrismate spiritus super funditur , utraque , vero ist a manu & ore antistitis impetramus . and even ierome himself contra luciferianos , saith , sine chrismate & episcopi jussione , neque presbyter , neque diaconus jus habent baptizandi . by all which we see , that baptism was chiefly the bishop's work , and that the presbyters did not baptize without his order . as for the eucharist , ignatius ad smyrnenses , saith , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and a little after 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . iustin in his second apol. giving the account of their eucharist and whole service , reckons all to have been managed by the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and tert. de cor . mil. non de aliorum quam praesidentium manibus sumimus . but all this is very unjustly applied by such as would pretend to the whole ecclesiastical authority ; but would exempt themselves from the great labor of it . for it is clear , that according to the primitive constitution , the bishop was the immediate pastor of the flock , and the presbyters were assumed by him in partem sollicitudinis : the greatest of the load still lying on his own shoulders , and this might have been some way managed by him , where the dioceses were smaller . but the enlarging of the dioceses hath wholly altered the figure of primitive episcopacy . all that the bishop can now do being to try entrants well , and oversee these that are in charge ; which ought not to be performed either by these overly visitations in synods , or by a pompous procession through the diocese , but by a strict and severe examen both of their lives and labors , performed in such visitations , as are sutable to the simplicity and humility of the gospel . as for preaching , it was ordinary at first , even for persons not ordained to preach , not to mention that of the corinthians , where every one brought his psalm , his interpretation , or his doctrine to the meeting , which may be called extraordinary ; under which notion , most reject everything in scripture that doth not please them . but this continued longer in the church . euseb. lib. 6. hist. cap. 20. tells , that origen before he had gotten the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( mark how this word stands here for the order and degree of presbyterat ) was invited earnestly by the bishops not only to dispute , but also to expound the scriptures , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the publick assembly of the church . for the vindication whereof alexander bishop of ierusalem , and theoctistus bishop of cesarea , wrote to demetrius bishop of alexandria thus : quod autem in literis adjunxeris nunquam antea auditum , neque jam usurpatum , ut laici praesentibus episcopis disputarent , scripturásve exponerent in eo mihi , nescio quo modo , videris falsa dixisse : nam ubi idonei & habiles reperiuntur , qui fratribus in verbo dei adjumento sint , à sanctis episcopis rogantur , ut populum dei instituant in verbo , sicut larandis euelpis à neone , iconii paulinus à celso , & apud synadas theodorus ab attico , qui omnes beati ac pii fratres crant : ac verisimile est , quamvis nobis obscurum & minime cognitum sit , illud idem in aliis locis fieri . tert. in his apologetick cap. 39. tells , that post aquam manualem & lumina , quisquis ut de scripturis sanctis , vel de proprio ingenio potest provocatur in medium deo hymnum canere . and of this remember what was before cited from hilary the deacon on the 4th of the ephesians . sozom. lib 7. cap. 19. saith , that at rome neither the bishop , nor any other taught in the church : but that in alexandria the bishop alone taught , that not being allowed to any presbyter , after arrius broached his heresie . it remains only to be enquired who was the proper minister of confirmation . but because this whole matter of confirmation comes not in so properly upon any of the other canons , i shall therefore examine all that relates to it here , and shall consider upon what grounds it was used , how early it was practiced , with what rites it was administred , who was the proper minister of it , and for what end it was introduced , and continued in the church . from acts 8.15 . and 19.6 . all the fathers have pleaded for this rite : for there we have the laying on of hands practiced , as a rite clearly distinct from baptism : and tho we find the holy ghost conferred by that imposition of hands , thence it will not follow that that action was extraordinary , and so to have expired with the apostles : for we find extraordinary effects following upon their ordinary actions , such as ordination , excommunication , & c. and yet none will plead that these actions are now to be disused , because they are no more attended with such effects . but heb. 6.2 . speaks most plainly for this , where among the foundations of religion , the laying on of hands is joined with baptisms : and this seemed so clear to calvin commenting on that place , that he judges this to have been a rite derived from the apostles . the constant ceremony of it was that which is often mentioned in scripture , imposition of hands . but besides this , they began very early to use a chrisma of consecrated oil , with which they anointed them in the brow . this it seems hath been taken from the mention that we find made of anointing , 2 cor. 1.21 . where some think the whole rites of confirmation are set down in these words : now he which stablisheth us with you in christ , and hath anointed us , is god , who hath also sealed us , and given us the earnest of the spirit in our hearts . and 1 ioh. 2.27 . we are told of an unction from above , and a holy anointing . but that in these words no material anointing , but the extraordinary conferring of the holy ghost is meant , seems clear from the text : and so christ is said to be anointed with the oil of joy above his fellows , tho we hear nothing of a material anointing . it is true , james 5.14 . there is clear mention made of an anointing with oil , in which certainly there is no metaphor , but that relates nothing to our purpose . however , it is like from these places it was that the ancients used the chrisma , for we find that this was very early practised in the church . theophilus alexandrinus , who flourished about the year 170. lib. 1. ad antolycum , saith , we are for this reason called christians , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . et quis mortalium est , qui vel ingreditur in hanc vitam , vel certat in arenâ & non oleo inungitur . iren. lib. 1. cap. 18. tells , that valentinus used both confirmation and anointing in the receiving of his disciples , and tells , that he used a mixture of water and oil with opobalsamum . and this seems to imply that to have been the practice of the church ; for he tells , that valentinus had adapted and transformed the rites of the church into his character . tert. de bapt . cap. 7. makes mention of the unctio benedicta , qua egressi de lavacro perunguntur . and cap. 8. dehinc manus imponitur per benedictionem advocans & invitans spiritum sanctum , idem de refur . carnis , cap. 8. saith , caro abluitur — caro ungitur — caro signatur , caro manus impositione adumbratur , ut & anima spiritu illuminetur . and lib. de praescript . cap. 36. aquâ signat , spiritu sancto vestit , eucharistiâ pascit . yet tert. de cor. mil. cap. 3. when he recounts these ceremonies which he judged to have been of apostolical tradition , doth not reckon this for one . cyprian epist. 73. ad iubaianum , speaking of s. peter and s. iohn their laying on of hands at samaria , shews it was no new baptism : sed tantummodo quod deerat id à petro & ioanne factum esse , ut oratione pro iis habitâ , ac manu impositâ , invocaretur & infunderetur super eos spiritus sanctus : quod nunc quoque apud nos geritur , ut qui in ecclesiâ baptizantur praepositis ecclesiae offerantur , & per nostram orationem & manus impositionem spiritum sanctum consequantur , & signaculo divino consummentur . and epist. 70. after he hath spoken of baptism , he adds , ungi quoque necesse est cum qui baptizatus sit , ut accepto chrismate id est unctione esse unctus dei , & habere in se gratiam christs possit . and he tell , that both the eucharist & oleum unde unguntur babtizati , in altari sanctificatur . cyril of ierusalem his third mistagogical catechism is , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , wherein he describes the anointing we have from god ; and the consecrated oil , which was the rite expressive of the former , comparing it to the dove that descended from christ , and was his spiritual anointing . which is also done by optatus , lib. 4. cont . paramenianum , and the areopagite de eccles. hier . cap. 4. where he at length describes the rites used in the consecrating of the chrisma . yet this chrisma was not so peculiar to confirmation , but that it was also used upon other occasions . nazianzen tells ( as is above cited ) that such as were ordained , were also anointed . it was also used in baptism , so both tertullian , cyprian , and ierome , and the 48. canon of the council of laodicea decrees , that the illuminati post baptisma should be anointed with this unguentum coeleste . but by the i. can. of the council of orange , it was decreed , that he who was not anointed at baptism , should receive the chrisma at his confirmation : by which it seems they did not repeat the ceremony of anointing , to such as had received it at baptism . likewise these who returned from heresie , by the 7. can. of the second general council were to be anointed & fronte , & oculis , & naribus , & ore , & auribus , & signantes eos dicimus donum spiritus sancti . and like unto this is the 7. can. of laodicea . and author resp. ad orthod . that goeth under iustin's name , ad quoest . 14. cum hoereticus ad veram fidèm accedit , corrigitur lapsus falsae opinionis , sententiae , mutatione : baptismi , sancti chrismatis unctione ; ordinationis , manum impositione : nihilque quod prius erat , indissolutum manet . now by this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which he mentions , is not meant a new ordination , which was not given to these that returned from heresie . for as appears by the council of nice , the orders which they got among the hereticks were held valid , and not to be renewed : but this is meant of the ceremony ordinarily given in the absolution and receiving of penitents . august . cont . donatist . lib. 5. cap. 23. confesseth , that the baptism of hereticks was valid , but denies that they conferred the holy ghost , and therefore imposition of hands was given to those who returned from heresie . besides this chrisma , they used also in confirmation the sign of the cross , of which that phrase of tertullian is to be understood caro signatur . and aug. in psal. . 141. speaking of the sacraments , saith , quaedam sicut nostri ore accipimus , quaedam per totum corpus . and a little after , tegat frontem crux domini , which words are to be understood of the eucharist , baptism and confirmation . he calls this also sacramentum chrismatis , lib. 2. cont . petilianum , cap. 104. applying to it that of the ointment on aaron's beard , psalm 133. but elsewhere he calls that bread which was blest , not with the eucharistical and sacramental benediction , but with that lower degree , called eulogy , which might be given to the catechumens , sacramentum catechumenorum ; using this term largely , as he saith epist. ad marcellinum . signum cum ad rem sacram applicatur , sacramentum appellatur . of this sign of the cross , is likewise to be understood that of the signaculum dominicum , mentioned by cyprian , ep. 73. the next thing to be enquired after is , who was the minister of confirmation ? in the western church the bishop did only administer it . so ierome adv . luciferianos , brings in the luciferian in the dialogue . an nescis ecclesiarum hunc morem esse , ut baptizatis postea manus imponantur , & ita invocetur spiritus sanctus ? exigis ubi scriptum est ? in actibus apostolorum . etiamsi scripturae authoritas non subesset , totius orbis hanc in partem consensus , instar praecepti obtineret . then he makes the orthodox to answer : non equidem abnuo hanc esse ecclesiarum consuetudinem , ut ad eos qui longe in minoribus urbibus per presbyteros & diaconos baptizati sunt , episcopus ad invocationem sancti spiritus excurrat . and asking why the holy ghost was not given , but by the bishop ? he answers , that was potius ad honorem sacordotii , quam ad legis necessitatem . aug. de trin. lib. 15. cap. 16. speaking of the apostles conferring of the holy ghost , saith , orabant , ut veniret spiritus sanctus in eos quibus manum imponebant , non enim ipsi cum dabant , quem morem in suis praepositis etiam nunc servat ecclesia . but in the greek church , presbyters might confirm : so the above cited hilary on the 4 of the ephes. denique apud aegyptum presbyteri consignant , ubi praesens non sit episcopus : and lib. quaest . in vet. & nov. test. called augustin's , but believed to be the same hilary's , quaest . 101. faith , in alexandriâ , & per totam aegyptum si desit episcopus consecrat presbyter . by the comparing of which places , it appears , that it is the same thing which is exprest by these various names of consecration and consignation : but what is meant by it , is not agreed to . it is absurd to think that ordination can be meant by it . for that decision of the case of ischyras shews that in alexandria they were far from allowing presbyters to ordain without a bishop . some think that because consecration is more usually applied to the blessing of the eucharist ; therefore both it and consignation , is so to be understood here . and whereas it is objected that in the cited places some custom peculiar to alexandria seems to be mentioned ; but it was universally allowed in the bishop's absence for the presbyter to consecrate the eucharist : therefore some other thing must be there meant . it is answered to this , that in other places presbyters might not consecrate sine episcopi jussione ; according to what was cited out of ignatius ; and that the custom in alexandria hath been , that the presbyters without any such express mandate , might have consecrated in the bishop's absence . but the general practice of the greek church inclines me to think , that confirmation is meant by the cited places , which was usually phrased by consignation 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , only the consecrating af the chrisma and oil , was peculiar to the bishop , as his work ; so that the greeks seem to have made a difference betwixt the hallowing and applying of the chrisma . the first could only be done by the bishop , but the second was not denied to the presbyters . even as in the eucharist none might consecrate but presbyters , , yet laicks of both sexes , in case of necessity , might have carried and given it to the absents . of confirmation administred by presbyters , some instances do meet us in the latin church . the first canon of the council of orange , permits the use of the chrisma to the priests , who are appointed to carry some of it always about with them . conc. epaunense , cap. 16. permits the presbyters to give the chrisma to such hereticks as were converted on their death beds . and the second canon of the council of orange is : haereticos in mortis discrimine positos , si catholici esse desiderant , si episcopus desit , à presbyteris cum chrismate & benedictione consignari placuit . and the council of toledo permits a presbyter to do it in the bishops absence , or in his presence , if commanded by him . but both east and west , it was agreed , that the chrisma could not be sanctified by presbyters . conc. romanum sub sylv. cap. 5. decreed it . but as that council is much suspected , so the reason there given is a very poor one . quia christus dicitur à chrismate . but canon sixth , cod. afric . is more authentick , ut chrisma à presbyteris non fiat . and synod tolet. can. 20. quamvis pene ubique custodiatur ut absque episcopo nemo chrisma conficiat , tamen quia in aliquibus locis vel provinciis dicuntur presbyteri chrisma consicere , placuit ex hoc die nullum alium nisi episcopum hoc facere . and the areopagite , as he at length describes it , and descants upon it , so he appropriates it to the bishop . gregory the great , lib. 3. epist. 9. writing to ianuarius bishop of caralis in sardinia , discharges presbyters to anoint with the chrisma on the brow , appointing that to be reserved to the bishop : for sardinia , and the other isles , had observed the customs of the greek church : but gregory epist. 26. writing to that same person , tells , that he heard how some were scandalized , because he had discharged presbyters the use of the chrisma , which he therefore takes off in these words : et nos quidem secundum usum veterem ecclesiae nostrae fecimus , sed si omnino hac de re aliqui contristantur , ubi episcopi desunt , ut presbyteri etiam in frontibus baptizatos chrismate tangere debeant concedimus . but 200 years afterwards , nicolaus first bishop of rome , observed not that moderation . for the bulgarians who were converted by the greeks , receiving the chrisma from the presbyters according to the custom of that church ; nicolaus sent bishops to them , and appointed such as had been confirmed by presbyters to be confirmed again by bishops . but upon this , photius , who was then patriarch of constantinople , called a synod , it which it was decreed , that the chrisma being hallowed by a bishop , might be administred by presbyters . and photius in his epistle contends , that a presbyter might , unguento signare , sanctificare , consummatos angere , & expiatorium donum baptizato consummare , as well as he might either baptize or offer at the altar . but nicolaus impudently denied , that this had ever been permitted , and upon this account it is , that many of the latins have charged the greek church , as if there were no confirmation used among them . but this challenge is denied and rejected by the greeks . and so much of the minister of confirmation . it is in the last place to be considered , what value was set upon this action , and for what ends it was practised in the church . we have already heard augustin call it a sacrament . it is likewise so termed by cyprian epist. 72. and in the records of the council held by him for the rebaptizing of hereticks . but as was marked before , they took that term largely for an holy rite or symbolical action : whereas a sacrament strictly taken is a holy rite instituted by christ for a federal stipulation , by which the promises of the gospel are sealed , and grace conveyed to the worthy receivers . now in this sense it is visible , that confirmation is no sacrament : it neither being instituted by christ , nor having any grace appended to it . neither is it so totally distinct from baptism , being but a renovation of the baptismal vow , joined with prayer , and a solemn benediction . some have thought , that confirmation was only used by the ancients , as an appendix , or a consummatory rite of baptism , which mistake is founded upon this , that some of the riper age being baptized , got this imposition of hands after baptism . for the clearing of which some things must be considered : first , the ancients used an imposition of hands before baptism , to such as were admitted to be catechumens , who were in the christian church , like the proselytes of the gates among the iews : for they having renounced idolatry , were admitted to some parts of the christian worship , and instructed in the faith for some time , before they could commence christians . and an imposition of hands was used , when any were admitted to this order : so it is express in the 39. canon of elib . and in the greek euchology there is a prayer 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . where it is said , inflat signat & manum imponit . and in the liturgy called s. marks , quotquot ad baptismum dispositi estis accedite , ac manus impositionem & benedictionem accipite , dem manum imponit sacerdos . and euseb. de vitae const. lib. 4. faith of constantine ; confessione factâ precum particeps factus est per impositionem manuum . the areopagite makes mention also of this as done twice before baptism ; and aug. de mer. & remis . pec . lib. 2. cap. 26. catechumenum secundum quendam modum suum per signum & orationem manuum impositionis puto sanctificari . and cyprian ad steph. makes baptism a superaddition to that imposition of hands : which he draws from the example of cornelius , upon whom the spirit falling first , he was afterward baptized . it is true , he is there speaking of such as turned from heresie , who he judged should be rebaptized , after an imposition of hands first given them . but as the 39. canon of elib . speaks of an imposition of hands given before baptism , so the 7. canon of that same council , mentions another given after it . si quis diaconus regens plebem sine episcopo , vel presbyteris , aliquos baptizaverit , eos per benedictionem perficere debebit . and by the 33. canon of that council , any laick that was baptized , and was no bigamus , might baptize a catechumen if sick . ita ut si supervixerit , ad episcopum cum perducat , ut per manus impositionem perficere ( or as others read it perfici ) possit . if the first be the reading , it will relate to confirmation ; if the second , it will relate to the compleating of the baptism . the 48. canon of laodicea is , illuminatos post baptisma unguento caelesti liniendos esse . to infer from that , that confirmation was immediately to follow upon baptism is , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , doth not imply that it was to be done immediately after , but only that baptism was to go before it : and we find that same phrase in the canons immediately preceding this , applied to such as had been of a great while baptized . but tho such as were of riper years had been confirmed immediately after they received baptism , it will no more prove that confirmation was an appendix of baptism , than that the eucharist was so likewise , which was also given to them at the same time . so the areopagite tells , how such as were baptized , were carried by the priest to the bishop . ille vero unguento consecrato virum ungens sacrosanctae . eucharistiae participem esse pronunciat . and tho even children were confirmed immediately after baptism , that doth not prove the one but a rite of the other : for we find that not only in the african churches , but also in the roman church , the custom of giving children the eucharist immediately after baptism , continued long : for the ordo romanus , held by some a work of the eleventh century , appoints , that children be permitted to eat nothing after they are baptized , till they received the eucharist . that same practice is also mentioned by hugo the s. victore , lib. 1. cap. 20. in the twelfth century . and all the greek writers assert the necessity of childrens receiving the eucharist , and yet none asserted the eucharist to be but a rite of baptism . cornelius tells of novatian ( apud eusebium , lib. 6. hist. cap. 35. ) how he was baptized clinicus , and being recovered nec reliquorum particeps factus , quae secundum canones ecclesiae obtinere debuerat , nec ab episcopo obsignatus est . ( it is true , it is in the greek 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as if it were explicative of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which in the former words he said he wanted ; whence some infer , that confirmation was but one of the baptismal rites . but it is clear that the true reading is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and so nicephorus hath read it ) quo non impetrato , quomodo spiritum sanctum obtinuisse putandus est . yet from the story it appears that confirmation was judged only necessary ad bone esse , and not to the esse of a christian ; since notwithstanding the want of this , fabian bishop of rome ordained novatian a presbyter . the greek euchology shews , that such as were baptized , were after their baptism anointed , and so to be confirmed : and it subjoyning that the eucharist was to be given to them , proves no more the one to be a rite of baptism than the other . the whole current of the fathers runs , that in confirmation the holy ghost was conferred . august . de bapt. cont . donatistas , lib. 3. cap. 16. spiritus sanctus in solâ catholicâ , per manus impositionem dari dicitur , which he derives from the apostles , tho these extraordinary effects of speaking of tongues , or the like , did not follow upon it : sed invisibiliter & latenter per vinculum pacis , est eorum cordibus charitas divina inspirata . and concludes , quid enim est aliud nisi oratio super hominem . and certainly , were confirmation restored according to the apostolical practice , and managed with a primitive sincerity , nothing should give more probable hopes of a recovery of the christian church , out of the darkness and deadness in which it hath continued so long . it might quicken persons more seriously to consider to what they were engaged in baptism , when they were put to so solemn a renovation of it . but the more denuded it were of all unnecessary rites , such as oil , and the like , it might be more sutable to the evangelical spirit . and we see likewise from antiquity , that there is no reason for appropriating this action wholly , or only to the bishop . it should not be gone about till the person were ripe in years , and not only able by rote to recite a catechism , but of a fitness to receive the eucharist immediately after . but i shall conclude this whole matter with calvin's words , lib. 4. instit. cap. 19. sect . 4. & sequentibus : where after he hath laid out the primitive practice of confirmation , he subjoins : haec disciplina , si bodie valeret , profecto parentum quorundam ignavia acueretur , qui liberorum institutionem , quasi rem nihil ad se pertinentem , negligunt ; quam tum sine publico dedecore omittere non possent . major esset in populo christiano fidei consensus , nec tanta multorum inscitia , & ruditas , non adeo temere quidam novis , & peregrinis dogmatibus , abriparentur ; omnibus denique esset quaedam velut methodus doctrinae christianae . a supplement about the rural bishops , called chorepiscopi . it hath been already marked , that the extent of the dioceses was not all of one proportion : and generally the villages which lay adjacent to cities , having received the gospel at first from them , continued in subjection to the city , as to their mother church : whereby the bishops parish was not limited to the city , but did also include the adjacent villages . the inscription of clemens his epistles insinuates this : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . by which we see , that the churches of rome and corinth were made up not onely of such as inhabited the towns , but also of such as dwelt about them : and this is yet clearer from ignatius his inscription of his epistle to the romans ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . neither did they judg it fit to ordain bishops in smaller or lesser cities , as appears by the council of sardis , can. 6. where it is decreed , that a bishop should not be ordained 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . adding , that it was not necessary that bishops should be ordained there , lest the name and dignity of a bishop should be vilipended . but before this , it was decreed in the council of laodicea , can. 57. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ( for so reads the manuscript of oxford , dionysius exiguus , isidore mercator , hervetus , and iustellus ; and not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , vel , as binius ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : who were to do nothing without the knowledg of the bishop of the city , whom the learned beverigius observes ( on this canon ) to have been distinct from the rural bishops ; which he makes out both from the civil law , and a place of gennadius , where the orders of churchmen being reckoned , these circular visitors are set in a middle rank betwixt the rural bishops and presbyters . frequent mention is also made of these visitors in the acts of the council at chalcedon . this course therefore they took for these villages to send presbyters from the city , who were called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : and because the bishop could not immediately over-see them himself , he did therefore substitute a vicar and delegate who was generally called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . the first time that we meet with any of these , is in the beginning of the fourth century , in the councils of ancyra , neocesarea , and antiochia . these differed from presbyters , in that they got an ordination distinct from theirs , called by the council of antioch 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . they also might have ordained subdeacons , lectors , and exorcists , and given them commendatory letters . but they differed from bishops in these things : first , that they were ordained but by one bishop , as appears by the tenth canon of the council of antioch , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and therefore it is true that balsamon calls them , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . now we have already seen , that a bishop must be ordained by two bishops at least . next , these 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 were ordained 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , saith zonaras . and therefore in their subscriptions of the councils , they only design themselves chorepiscopi , without mentioning the place where they served , as the bishops do . now bishops could not be ordained but with a title to a particular charge and see. thirdly , their power was limited , and in many things inferior to the power of bishops . so pope leo the first , in his 88. epist. quamvis , cum episcopis plurima illis ministeriorum communis sit dispensatio , quaedam tamen ecclesiasticis regulis sibi prohibita norint , sicut presbyterorum & diaconorum consecratio . they might in general do nothing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and both the council of ancyra : , canon 13. and that of antioch , canon 10. discharge them the ordaining of presbyters or deacons . the words of the council of antioch are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which words clearly import , that the bishop must have intervened in the ordination , and so are wrong rendered by an old latin edition , praeter conscientiam episcopi . as if they had heen only limited not to ordain unless the bishop gave warrant . and thus these bishops of the villages and lesser cities were reduced from the degree of bishops , to an inferiour and limited office , and were undoubtedly of the episcopal order , tho their authority was much abridged . in the council of neocesarea their relation to the bishop , is compared to that of the seventy disciples to the apostles , and they are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and that which is there marked as their chief work , is their care of the poor . but by the canon of antioch , they might have ordained lectors , sub-deacons , and exorcists . and yet basil in his 181. epist. saith , that they might not have ordained , even these inferiour ranks , without having first advertised the bishop , and sent their testimonies , and the suffrages of their election to him : which is observed by aristenus in his gloss on the 13. canon of ancyra : and by mattheus blastares in his syntagma , cap. 31. but damasus , who was about the year 370. writes his whole fourth epistle against them , telling that he found it decreed by his predecessors , that they should be abolished , prohibititam ab , hac sacrâ sede , quam à totius orbis episcopis . — nam ( ut nobis relatum est ) quidam episcoporum , propter suam quietem , eis plebes suas committere non formidant . and falls severely on these bishops , and compares them to mercenaries and whores , that give out their children to others to suckle . he proves they were not bishops , because not ordained by three bishops , and descants upon the canons of neocesarea and antioch , which seem to import , as if they had the ordination of bishops ; adding , cesset ergo , cesset tot vicibus damnata praesumptio . and yet pope leo ( as we have already cited ) who was bishop of rome about 70. years after him , makes mention of them . and notwithstanding all he saith against them , of their being condemned , it doth not appear when or where it was so done . express mention is made of them in the council of nice , canon 8. as of a rank distinct from presbyters . it being there provided , that such 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as returned to the unity of the church , should continue in that same order of the clergy , wherein they were before , only such of them as were bishops might not continue bishops of a city , where there was already a bishop placed : because there could not be two bishops in one city : but if it pleased the bishop , they might either retain the bare name of a bishop , or be made chorepiscopi , or continue among the presbyters . mention also is made of them in the 2. canon of the general council of chalcedon , which shews , that at that time they were not wholly taken away : but the latest accounts we have of them is in france , where it seems they continued longest . conc. paris . an. 829. they are cap. 27. compared to the 70 disciples , according to that of neocesarea , and bishops are appointed to see that they did nothing beyond what was permitted to them by the canons . the like is decreed conc. meldensi , an. 845. cap. 44. and it is expressed there , that they might neither give the holy chrisma , nor the holy ghost , nor confer any order above that of a subdeacon , nor consecrate churches . conc. metensi , anno 888. cap. 5. it was decreed , that churches consecrated by them were to be again consecrated by a bishop , and any thing they did which was proper to a bishop was declared null , and they are reckoned all one with presbyters ; and here we lose sight of them , hearing no more of them : for as they arose insensibly , so they vanished in the like fashion . so much of them and upon the first canon . the second canon . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . a presbyter shall be ordained by one bishop , so likewise a deacon , and the rest of the clergy . we find most of the fathers , even ierome himself , drawing the subordination among churchmen from what was under the law ; and therefore deacons were ordinarily called levites . but there is more ground to think , it was immediately taken from the form of the synagogue , tho that constitution might have had its rise from the model of the temple-service . i shall not here engage in a large examen of the first origine and rise of the synagogues , or of the worship performed in them , or debate whether they began before the captivity , in it , or after it . nor what ground there may be from the word synagogue used psalm 74.8 . to assert their early date . but certain it is , that the temple worship was merely typical , in which the whole people were to assist , but as a few returns of the year . and beside this , the law of nature dictates , that god is to be frequently and solemnly worshipped by such as acknowledge his great name , which will plead for an early rise to these assemblies . but be in that what may be , two things are certain . the one is , that synagogues were constitute in our saviour's time , and that there were rulers , and chief rulers in these synagogues , that in them prayers were said , the law was read , expounded , and exhortations made upon it , and discipline was used , and such as were faulty were cast out of these synagogues . all this is evident from the new testament : and much more than this can be gathered out of iewish writings . now our saviour's going into these synagogues , reading the law , and preaching in them , doth abundantly evince , that this constitution was not unlawful . another thing is as clear from the old testament , that there was neither written command , nor warrant for such assemblies ; and the contrary of this none can undertake to make out . from which positions , both of them equally clear and certain , a great step might be made for the calming and composing of debates about government , were heats and prejudices out of the way . it being apparent , that there was an entire frame of church government , and worship among the iews , which was not unlawful , though not of divine institution . in the synagogues there was ( as is marked before ) first , one that was called the bishop of the congregation . next , the three orderers , and judges of every thing about the synagogue , who were called tsekenim , and by the greeks 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . these ordered and determined every thing that concerned the synagogues , or the persons in it . next them , were the three parnassin or deacons , whose charge was to gather the collections of the rich , and to distribute them to the poor : and these were called septem viri boni civitatis . the term elder , was generally given to all their judges : but chiefly to these of the great sanhedrin , so we have it , matth. 16.21 . mark 8.31 . 14.43 . and 15.1 . and acts 23.14 . and for a fuller satisfaction to this , i must refer you to such as have given an account of the synagogue out of the iewish writers . next , a great deal might be said , to prove that the apostles in their first constitutions , took things as they had them modelled to their hand in the synagogue : and this they did , both because it was not their design to innovate , except where the nature of the gospel dispensation obliged them to it . as also , because they took all means possible to gain the jews , who we find were zealous adherers to the traditions of their fathers , and not easily weaned from these precepts of moses , which by christ's death were evacuated : and if the apostles went so great a length in complying with them in greater matters , as circumcision , and other legal observances , ( which appears from the acts and epistles ) we have good grounds to suppose , that they would have yielded to them in what was more innocent and less important . besides , there appears both in our lord himself , and in his apostles , a great inclination to symbolize with them , as far as was possible . now the nature of the christian worship shews evidently , that it came in the room of the synagogue , which was moral , and not of the temple-worship , which was typical and ceremonial . likewise , this parity of customs betwixt the iews and christians , was such , that it made them be taken by the romans , and other more overly observers , for one sect of religion : and finally , any that will impartially read the new testament , will find , that when the forms of government , or worship are treated of , it is not done with such architectonical exactness , as was necessary , if a new thing had been instituted , which we find practiced by moses . but the apostles rather speak , as these who give rules for the ordering , and directing of what was already in being . from all which it seems well grounded and rational to assume , that the first constitution of the christian churches , was taken from the model of the synagogue , in which these elders were separated , for the discharge of their imployments , by an imposition of hands , as all iewish writers do clearly witness . so the presbyters of the christian church were ordained by an imposition of hands . their power was not only to preach , which ( as i shewed already ) was common to others , but also to administer sacraments ; so that it is true which ierome saith , communi consilio presbyterorum res gerebantur . we have already considered , how necessary it was judged , that no ordination of presbyters might be gone about without the presence and concurrence of the bishop , as the principal person , which was judged necessary ( as i suppose ) more upon the account of unity and order , than from the nature of the thing in its self : for taking things in themselves , it will follow , that whatever power one hath , he may transmit to another ; and therefore there seems to be small reason , why one who hath the power of preaching the gospel , and administring sacraments , may not also transmit the same to others : and it seems unreasonable so to appropriate this to a bishop , as to annul these ordinations which were managed by presbyters , where bishops could not be had . maimonides saith , every one regularly ordained , hath power to ordain his disciples also . there remains nothing to be cleared about this from antiquity , save the 13 canon of the council of ancyra , which runs thus . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ( others read ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . others read 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . now the difficulty raised about this canon is this , that if the reading be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , then it will follow , that the presbyters of the city might have ordained without the bishops presence , if they had his warrant in writing . yea , they also infer , that it is probable that before that , they ordained even without the bishops warrant , to which they were limited by this canon : and upon this wallo messalinus triumphs not a little . but blondel chused rather to read the canon 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; as if the meaning of it were , that the chorepiscopi could not have ordained either presbyters or deacons ; nor the presbyters of the city without the bishops warrant in writing ; which will infer , that they might have done it being so warranted . it is true , binnius hath read it so ; so also hath gentianus hervetus , as appears by his latin version of this council . the arabick manuscript also favors this . and it is directly asserted by zonaras on this canon , and aristenus . but it is contradicted by the whole tract of antiquity , whom we find all concurring in this , that the chorepiscopi might neither ordain presbyters , nor deacons without a bishop , as was cleared in its due place . fut for that of wallo messalinus , it will appear to be ill grounded : for first , it is certain that the chorepiscopi were a dignity above presbyters . it will be therefore unreasonable to think that presbyters could do that which was unlawful to the other . besides , how bad an inference is it from one canon of a provincial council , of which there are such various readings , to argue for a thing which is not only without any other ground , but also contrary to the whole current of antiquity ? and it was but few years after this , that in alexandria the ordinations given by colutbus , who was but a presbyter , and only 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , were annulled . now ancyra being in asia the lesser , and divers bishops out of syria being there , in particular the bishops of antioch and cesarea , who subscribed first ; how came it that there was no notice of this had at alexandria , to have prevented their severe sentence in the case of colutbus ? but to consider the readings of the canon , binius reads it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so iustellus : it is true , he hath on the margin ( aliter 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) hervetus hath translated it , in alienâ parochia . now if this be the true reading , the meaning of it will run thus . whereas by a great many other canons , presbyters were so tied to their bishop , that no bishop was to receive the presbyter of another bishop , without his bishops warrant and licence , and his literae pacificae , and dimissoriae . so here the presbyters of the city are discharged to go and assist at ordinations , in other parishes , without a written licence from their own bishop . but as this canon is read ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) by some , so they seem to have added to it , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; so that the meaning of it is , that the presbyters of the city might do nothing without the bishop's warrant and licence in writing : thus have both isidorus mercator , and dionysius exiguns read it , as appears by their latin versions which are , sed nec presbyteris civitatis ( licet ) sine episcopi praecepto , aliquid amplius imperare , vel sine authoritate literarum ejus ' in unaquaque parochiâ aliquid agere . and this is according to binius's edition of them . but in another edition of dionysius exiguus by iustellus , he seems to have read it simply 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , without any supplement . another old latin edition published by iustellus hath , sed neque presbyteris civitatis licere , sine jussione episcopi , sed cum ejusdem literis eundi ad singulas parochias . ioannes antiochen in his collectio canonum , reads it simply 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ferrandus in his breviatio canonum , canon 92. cites this part of the canon thus : ut presbyteri civitatis , sine jussu episcopi , nihil jubeant , nec in unaguaque paroeciâ aliquid agant . alexius aristinus in his synopsis , hath the first part of the canon , but wants the second part . ( and in his gloss agrees with zonaras , as was before observed . ) and so doth simeon logotheta , in his epitome canonum . and by this diversity of reading , it will appear how little ground there is for founding any thing upon this canon alone , especially when that alledged from it , is contradicted by undeniable evidences . but as presbyters might not ordain without bishops , so neither could bishops ordain without the advice , consent , and concurrence of their presbyters conc. carth. 4. canon 22. ut episcopus , sine concilio clericorum suorum , clericos non ordinet , ita ut cirvium testimonium & co●●iventiam quaerat . and it was laid to chrysostone's charge , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and in the roman council held by sylvester ( if credit be due to the registers of that council , which are indeed justly questionable ) it was decreed , cap. 11. that one was to be ordained a presbyter , cum omnes presbyteri declararent & firmarent , & sic ad ordinem presbyterii accederet . and none was to be made a bishop , nisi omnis clerus expeteret uno voto perenni . it is likewise certain , that all things were done by the joint advice of bishop and presbyters . neither were these wretched contests , of the limits of power , much thought on , or tossed among them . the bishops pretending to no more , than presbyters were willing to yield to them ; and presbyters claiming no more than bishops were ready to allow them . their contentions lay chiefly with these that were without ; those intestine fewds and broils being reserved for our unhappy days . but as we find cyprian amply declaring , how he resolved to do nothing without the consent of his clergy , and people : so in the african , churches , that course continued longest in vigor . divers instances whereof appear in the 4. council of carthage ; one i have already cited , to which i shall add three more , can. 23. episcopus nullius causans audiat , absque praesentiâ clericorum suorum , alioquin irrita erit sententia episcopi , nisi clericorum praesentiâ confirmetur . can. 34. episcopus in quolibet loco sedens , stare presbyterum non patiatur . and can. 35. episcopus in ecclesiâ , & in consessu presbyterorum , sublimior sedeat ; intra domum vero , collegam prebyterorum sese esse cognoscat . there were two ranks of presbyters , as clearly appears from the 13. canon of neocesareo , to wit , the presbyters of the city , and the presbyters of the country . the former were the more eminent , in so far that the latter might not consecrate the eucharist within the church of the city in their presence , which appears from the cited canon . over the presbyters of the country were the chorepiscopi , of whom already ; but the presbyters of the city being next at hand , were the bishops counsel , and advisers in all matters . the bishop and they had the oversight of the souls within the city . they were also to be maintained out of the treasury of the church , and were called canonici or praebendarii . the reason why they were called canonici , was either , because of their regular observing of the course of worship , and hours of prayer : or because of the distributions that were made among them , according to the canon or rule , and from the share that was assigned to them , called praebenda , they got the name praebendarii . this consessus or collegium presbyterorum , was afterwards designed by the barbarous word capitulum . the chief over them , or the vice praeses next to the bishop was called archipresbyter , or decanus , idem quod decurio , qui decem militibus praeerat : and insensibly the whole ecclesiastical jurisdiction crept into their hands . the presbyters of the country either neglecting it , or being neglected in it . but without the capitulum , nothing that the bishop did was valid . however , when the first servor and vigor of church discipline slacken'd : avarice and ambition creeping in apace into the hearts of churchmen , these chanoins or praebends not contented with their allowances out of the church of the city , which were too small for their growing desires , got churches in the country annexed to them : and for most part serv'd them by substitutes , except at the return of some solemn festivities : and by this means it was , that church discipline fell totally into the bishops hands ; and the ancient model being laid aside , new courts which were unknown to antiquity , were set up . as these of the arch-deacons , chancellors , officials , surrogates , &c. however the praebends , though they had deserted their interest in church-discipline , yet two things they stuck to , because of the advantage and power that followed them . the one was the capitular elections of the bishop , and the other was the meddling with , and disposing of the church revenues , and treasure . but it was a gross contradiction to the ends of government , that the bishop alone might manage the spiritual part of his charge , but must be limited to the advice of his presbyters for the governing of the temporality . yet this was a farther proof of that saying , religio peperit divitias , & filia devoravit matrem . and thus far we have seen what interest presbyters had within their own parish , ( mark that at first the bishops precinct was called parish , and not diocese ) neither was the meeting of the bishop with his presbyters called a synod : by which we see how weak that allegiance is , that there were no diocesan bishops in the first centuries , it being merely a playing with the word diocess . but let us next consider what interest presbyters had in provincial or national councils . if that of the acts 15. was a synod , in it we have presbyter subscribing with the apostles . brethren are also there added , not as if there had been any laicks elected out of the laity , such as these are who are now vulgarly called lay-elders , but some more eminent christians , whom as the apostles call'd then , so the bishops continued afterward to consult and advise with in ecclesiastick matters . but that presbyters sate in provincial synods in the first and purest ages , is undeniably clear . when victor held the council at rome about the day of easter , damasus tells that it was collatione facta cum presbyteris & diaconibus . likewise in the council that cyprian held , about the rebaptizing of hereticks , there were present , episcopi plurimi ex provinciâ africanâ , numidiâ , mauritaniâ , cum presbyteris & diaconibus , praesente etiam plebis maximâ parte . and his contemporary firmilian , whose epistle is the 75. among cyprian's , tells us , how there were yearly synods of bishops and presbyters , quâ ex causâ , saith he , necessario apud nos sit , ut per singulos annos seniores & presbyteri , ( by which it is clear , that he can mean none , but presbyters and bishops ) in unum conveniamus , ad disponenda ea , quae curae nostrae commissa sunt . eusebius lib. 6. cap. 35. tells , that upon the account of novatus's schism , there was held at rome 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which consisted of sixty bishops , and many more presbyters , and deacons , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . he likewise tells , lib. 7. cap. 27. how that upon samosatenus's heresie , there was a great synod held in antioch : and after he hath set down the names of some bishops there present , he adds , that there were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and their synodal letter is written in the name of the bishops , presbyters and deacons . in the council of eliberis in spain , there were 19. bishops , residentibus originta sex presbyteris , abstantibus diaconibus & omni plebe . in the provincial council at arles , which judged in the matter of donatus's schism , constantine the emperor being present , where were about two hundred bishops from divers nations , from italy , france , spain , sicily , sardinia , africk , numidia , and britain , the canons of that council are subscribed by many presbyters and deacons . and if the story of the council of rome under sylvester be true , it is subscribed by 284. bishops , 45. presbyters , and 5. deacons . now all these being before the council of nice , evince that in the first and best ages , presbyters voted and judged in provincial councils , and if in provincials , why not in general ones ? the council of nice is subscribed by some chorepiscopi , and one chorepiscopus subscribes in the council of ephesus , and if chorepiscopi be ( as it is the opinion of some ) in their natural dignity only presbyters , then we have presbyters also subscribing general councils . besides that in the council of constantinople , and ephesus , divers bishops subscribed by presbyters : from all which it is clear , that there is no ground from antiquity to exclude presbyters from a suffrage in national and general councils : and it is but a frivolous distinction that they may have a consultative , tho not a deliberative suffrage , since we see them subscribing both the decisions of faith and canons of discipline . the next thing to be examined , is the qualification , election , and ordination of presbyters . for their qualification , great care was used to train them up long in an abstracted and devote life , that so they might be well prepared for that holy function . and therefore it was , that many of the primitive bishops lived in monasteries among them , whom they were educating for holy orders , as appears from the lives of basil , augustine , and martin : neither was one to be ordained a presbyter , but after a long probation and tryal , and all these degrees , of which we shall speak afterward , were so many steps and preparations through which all were to go , before they could be initiated . and indeed it seems against reason , at first step to ordain a man presbyter , and commit the care of souls to him , before a long previous probation had of him . therefore the ancient monasteries , as they were sanctuaries for such as designed to leave the world , and live devoutly , so they were also colleges for the education of churchmen . it is true , the years of probation may seem too too many ; but they ordinarily dispensed in that , as they found persons worthy and qualified . but none might be presbyter before he were thirty years of age , according to the council of neocesarea , even tho he were highly worthy ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ) and the reason given for this , is , because christ was thirty years of age before he entred upon the discharge of his holy function . likewise a clinicus , that is , one baptised in sickness , by the twelfth canon of neocesarea , could not have been a presbyter , because he was not a christian , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and this was not to be dispensed with , but upon his following faith and diligence , or that others could not be had . and in the canon law , dist . 77. cap. siquis , among other prerequisites for a presbyter , one is : si poenitentiam publicam non gesserit , holding that any gross scandal committed after baptism , should be a bar upon a man from being ordained a presbyter . as also dist. 56. cap. 1. the children of presbyters are discharged to be ordained : presbyterorum filios à sacris altaris ministeriis removemus , nisi aut in coenobiis , aut in canonicis religiose probati fuerint conversari . it is like , this was either to discourage the marriage of churchmen , or to obviate the scandal might have been taken , if they had been partial to their own children . yet this was neither old nor universal ; for nazianzen was both a presbyter and a bishop , though a bishop's son. and in the next chapter of that same dist. many instances are alledged by damasus to the contrary . further , none who had been soldiers , and were curiales , and obstricti curiae , could have been ordained without a dimission , and that they had been fifteen years in a monastery , and three parts of four of their estate were adjudged to the fisk ; so dist. 53. and iustinian 123. nov. now this might be first , left any weary of the service to which they were obliged , should upon that pretence shake it off , and run from their colors , or other employments . but next , that men who had been much involved in the world , and particularly men of bloud , might not enter into holy orders , without a long precedent change of the course of their life ; it not being easie to pass of a sudden from a course of secularity , to that sublimity of holiness which is necessary for such a sacred function . and finally , all ambitus was condemned in presbyters , as well as in bishops , though we see both from chrysostom's books de sacerdotio , and nazianzen's apologetick , that there was enough of it among both kinds . yet many there were who resisted the calls given them to church-offices with great earnestness , some flying from them to the wilderness , as from a persecution : some cutting off their noses , and other members , that they might be thought unworthy of it ; some continued to the end in their refusal : others were not ordained without being haled even by force ; many receiving this sacred imposition of hands with trembling and many tears . and indeed were the greatness of the charge more weighed , and the secular advantages less looked at , it is like there might be yet need of some force to draw men to accept of it ; whereas all are so forward to rush toward it , blown up with pride , or provoked by covetousness . we saw already how averse nazianzen was from entring in sacred orders : but no less memorable is the history of chrysostome , who ( with his friend basil ) having engaged in a monastick life , was struck with fear when a rumour rose that they were both to be ordained presbyters . ( and by the way observe , that he calls it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ) but chrysostome was silent , lest the expressing of his aversion should have deterred basil ; and his his silence was judged by basil a consent , and so proved one of his chief inducements to accept of orders . but when the day came wherein chrysostome knew that the bishops designed to ordain them , he withdrew privately , so that he could not be found : yet the bishops upon another pretence , carried basil to the church , and there ordained him , much against his mind . but when he first met with his friend chrysostome , he melted down in tears , challenging him severely for his withdrawing from him ; whereof chrysostome gives his apology at large in these six excellent books of his de sacerdotio ; wherein by way of dialogue betwixt him and his friend , he layeth out the great dignity and weight of that charge , chiefly in the third book , where he shews , that a priest should be like one of the angels of god , cap. 4. and he blames these elections that were rashly made , cap. 10. upon which he charges most of the disorders that were then in the church . and cap. 11. he confesseth how guilty himself was of that unlawful ambitus for church employment ; which being yet unmortified in him , did frighten him from entring in holy orders . cap. 14. he saith , episcopum convenit studio acri & perpetuâ vitae continentia tanquam adamantinis armis obseptum esse . in the fourth book he speaks of the great caution was to be used in elections and ordinations , complaining that in these , regard was rather had to riches and honor , than true worth . through the fifth book he shews the great evil and hazard of popular applause , and the sin of being much pleased with it . and lib. 6. cap. 2. he hath that excellent saying , that the soul of the priest should be purer than the very beams of the sun themselves . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and cap. 12. he accuses himself of his vain desires and other faults , whence it was that he had so great a horrour of attempting at that for which he knew himself so unworthy : preoccupying that objection , that a man in that is to submit to the judgment of others , by the examples of one who hath no skill in physick , and knowing himself ignorant , is not to administer physick , though all the world should desire him to undertake a cure , declaring their opinion and confidence of his skill : for if upon another mans opinion of his skill he should offer to meddle in it , and give physick , he might as well kill as cure . so neither one unacquainted in military affairs , was to undertake the leading of an army , knowing his own unfitness , though never so much solicited to it : whence he subsumes more strongly , that none should undertake the leading of souls , as long as he knew his own unfitness , were the importunities and solicitations of others never so many . and so far of the qualifications of those who were to be ordained presbyters . their election hath been touched already , for it went the same way with the elections of bishops , and so was partly popular , at least was to be ratified by the approbation , and consent of the people . possidius in vita augustini , tells how he was chosen a presbyter by the people . we have the ordination of the presbyters set down thus , conc. carth. 4. canon . 3. presbyter quum ordinatur , episcopo eum benedicente , & manum super caput ejus tenente , etiam omnes presbyteri , qui praesentes sunt , manus suas juxta manum episcopi super caput illius teneant . dionysius the areopagite in the forecited place tells , that the presbyter whom he calls 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , was ordained in the same form that a bishop was ordained , save only that the gospel was not laid on his head . from which simplicity of the primitive forms , we may see , how far they were from all these superstitious fopperies now used in the romish church in ordination . and so much concerning presbyters . deacons are next to be treated of . the original of them is by the general current of the ancients taken from the levites under the temple , and therefore in not a few of the antient councils , they go under that designation . but as was formerly observed , it is more probable , that the christian church took its immediate model from the synagogue , tho that might have been taken from the temple . now in the synagogue , as there was a bishop and presbyters , so there were also deacons called parnasin . there were three of them in each synagogue , two were to gather the collections , and all the three together did distribute them . the first origine of them in the christian church is set down , acts 6. where their primitive institution shews , that their first design was for looking to the necessities of the poor , who had been neglected in the daily distribution of the charity , and there they are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . it is true , that term luke 4.20 . is used in another sense , for there the minister of the synagogue , to whom christ delivered the book , could be no other , than their chazan or bishop , whose office it was to call out any to read the law in the synagogue . but since all church-office is for service , and not for domination , christ himself not coming to be ministred unto , but to minister , it is no wonder , if that term should then have been promiscuously used . we also find s. paul applying to himself ( 1 cor. 4. a term equivalent to this . ) but though the primitive institution of deacons import only their looking to the necessities of the poor : yet from the levites ministring to the priest in the sacrifices , it came to be generally received and used , the deacons should serve the bishops and presbyters in the administration of the sacraments . the institution of them doth also discover , that they were persons to be separated for that holy service , and consecrated for it by an imposition of hands ; and so were to be no more secular , but ecclesiastical persons : and the usual practice of the church was to account that office a step , degree and probation , in order to ones being made a presbyter . and therefore our mungrel lay-deacons differ vastly , both from the first institution of the scripture , and current of all antiquity . the arcopagite gives the account of their ordinations thus : that the deacon being brought to the bishop , kneeled down on one knee , and so received imposition of hands . the fourth canon of the fourth council of carthage is : diaconus quum ordinatur , solus episcopus , qui eum benedicit , manum super caput illius ponat ; quia non ad sacerdotium , sed ad ministerium consecratur . as for their election , at the first institution they were chosen by the whole body of the people , so acts 6. and tho the people were barred their suffrage in the choice of other church officers , yet there might be good reason why they should still chuse the deacons , their office being almost wholly temporal , to receive and distribute the peoples alms . but whatever right people might pretend to in this , it will never be proved that by divine right , the people should chuse those who had the charge of their souls . for reason would infer , that none could make a choice , who were not able to give a judgment of the qualifications , and worth of a churchman , that being peculiar to the clergy . and hence it is that more than a consent cannot be justly pretended to by the people . but after all this , if this place prove anything , it will prove in favor of the whole body of the people , and not of a few selected lay-elders . all the deacons were in their degree and order inferiour to presbyters , which will appear from these canons of the 4. council of carthage , canon 37. the deacon is declared to be the minister of the presbyter , as well as of the bishop . canon 39. he might sit in the presence of a presbyter , if desired by him . canon 40. in conventu presbyterorum diaconus interrogatus , loquatur ; so that he might not speak , except desired . it is therefore a disorder in church-discipline , that the archdeacon should not only be a presbyter , but also exercise jurisdiction over presbyters . and therefore petrus blesensis , epist. 123. hath well observed , how turbato ordine dignitatis , archidiaconi bodie sacerdotibus praeeminent , & in eos vim ac potestatem suae jurisdictionis exercent . jerome is the first that makes mention of these arch deacons , telling how the deacons did chuse one of their number to be over them , quem archidiaconum vocabanst : and in the same epistle to evagrius , he severely inveighs against those deacons , who pretend to an equality with , or preference over presbyters , saying : quid patitur mensarum & viduarum minister , ut supra eos tumidus sese esserat , ad quorum preces corpus sanguisque christi conficitur . because of the first number seven , the custom was to have but seven deacons in a city were it never so great : so it was decreed in the council of neocesarea 14. canon . their office was chiefly to look to the poor , and to serve in the administration of the sacraments . just in martyr in the end of his second apology tells , that the eucharist was sent by the deacons to such as were absent . cyprian lib. 3. epist. 15. reckons it as a part of the deacon's office to wait upon the martyrs , and epist. 17. of that same book , he tells , that where there was no presbyter , & urgere exitus coeperit . the deacon might receive the exhomulagesis of penitents , and absolve them by imposition of bands . optatus lib. 2. calls them the defenders of the holy table ; telling how the donatists had broken through the roof of a church , and had killed and wounded some of the deacons , who preserved the holy elements from their sacrilegious attempt . the deacons distributed the eucharist , and sometime they did give it to the presbyters , but that was forbidden by the 18. can. of the council of nice . yet in the fourth council of carthage , can. 38. diaconus , praesente presbytero , eucharistiam corporis christi populo si necessitas cogat , jussus eroget . cyril of jerusalem in his 17. catechism , counts the deacon the minister of baptism , as well as the bishop or presbyter . and certain it is , that generally baptism was administred by the deacons , as well as by the presbyters . some parts of the publick worship were also discharged by the deacons . chrysostome hom . 14. ad rom. tells , that the deacons offered prayers for the people ; and hom . 17. ad heb. he tells , that the deacons stood in a high place at the administration of the eucharist , and calling with a terrible voice , as heraulds , invited some , and rejected others from these holy mysteries . and thus far i have given an account of the sense which the ancients had of the offices of bishop , presbyter , and deacon , which three were the only ones they accounted sacred and divine . and this held good even at the time , that the areopagites's pretended books were written ( i call them pretended , because there is none now so simple as to believe them his ) for he reckons the ecclesiastical hierarchy to consist in these three degrees . to this account given of deacons , i shall add somewhat of deaconesses , of whom mention is made , rom. 16 1. where phebe is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the deaconess ●f the church of cenchrea . they are likewise so called in the 15. canon of chalcedon ; but more ordinary in ancient writings 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ijerome on that place to the romans , speaking of phebe , understands her to have been a deaconess : and adds , etiam nunc in orientalibus diaconissae mulieres in suo sexu ministrare videntur , in baptismo , sive in ministerio verbi , quia privatim docuisse foeminas invenimus sicut priscillam . he likewise understood the widows mentioned , 1 tim. 5. to be diaconesses : tales eligi voluit diaconissas quae omnibus essent exemplum vivendi . origen likewise takes it as undoubted , that phebe had a particular office in the church of cenchrea : and saith on that place , hic locus apostolica authoritate docet etiam foeminas in ministerio ecclesiae constitui , in quo officio positam phaeben apud ecclesiam quae est cenchreis . chrysostome likewise understood it to be an office : and saith on that place , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . if any credit be due to the apostolical constitutions , they tell us many things of their office , tho with a great alloy of much idle stuff . they tell , that no woman might come to a bishop or presbyter , except in the company of a deaconess , lib. 2. cap. 26. and that they were to go to womens houses to instruct them , which had been scandalous for churchmen , lib. 3. cap. 15. they did likewise receive them in baptism , cap. 16. and kept the gates by which women entred into the church , lib. 8. cap. 28. so it seems their office was to instruct and teach women . and so s. paul , phil. 4.3 . speaks of women who laboured with him in the gospel . and rom. 16. we find mention not only of priscilla , but of tripbona , triphosa and persis , who laboured in the lord. and it is like their office was also to minister to the necessities of churchmen : and therefore when s. paul speaks of leading about a sister and a wife , as well as other apostles , he may be well understood to speak of one of those who might both have supplied his wants , and assisted him in the conversion of women ; but for eviting scandal , they were not to be under sixty years of age . mention is made of them by pliny , lib. 10. epist . 97. who writing to trajan , of the enquiry he was making of the christians , saith , necessarium credidi ex duabus ancillis quae ministrae dicebantur quid effet veri & per tormenta quaerere . they were received by an ordination in tertullian's time : for he speaking of them , saith , ( de castit . cap. 13. ) ordinari in ecclesia solent . and ad uxorem , lib. 1. cap. 7. viduam allegi in ordinationem nisi univiram non concedit . the 19. canon of the council of nice , reckons the deaconesses among those that were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but saith that they had no imposition of hands , so that in all things they were reckoned among the laicks ; but hints that they had a particular habit , calling them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . balsamon's gloss on this is , that the virgins who dedicated themselves to god , continued in a laical habit till they were forty years of age ; and were then , if found worthy , ordained deaconesses , by a particular imposition of hands . to this zonar as adds , that the virgins in the twenty fifth year of . their age , got a particular habit from the bishop . the 74 canon of nice , according to the arabick edition , appoints the office of a deaconess to be only the receiving of women in baptism . epiph. baeres . 79. after he hath proved that a woman is not capable of the publick service of the church , adds , that the order of the deaconesses was instituted out of reverence to that sex , that when the womans body was naked in baptism , they might not be so seen by the priest. and with this agrees the 12th canon of the fourth council of cartbage : vidue vel sanctimoniales quae ad ministerium baptizandarum mulierum eliguntur tam instructae sint ad officium , ut possint apto & sano sermone docere imperitas & rusticus mulieres tempore quo baptizandae sint , qualiter baptizatori interrogatae respondeant , & qualiter accepto baptismate vivant . this is also confirmed by the 6. chap. of the 6. novel , which appoints the age both for virgins and widows to be fifty years : sicque sacram promereri ordinationem . and their office is denied to be adorandis ministrare baptismatibus , & aliis adesse secretis quae in venerabilibus ministeriis per eas rite aguntur . and the rest of that chapter gives divers other rules concerning them . the 15. canon of chalcedon , appoints a deaconess not to be ordained till she were forty years of age ( it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the canon ) and it is appointed that it be done after a strict examination ; but that after she was ordained , and continued some time in the ministery , if she gave her self in marriage , she ( as one that had reproached the grace of god ) was to be anathematized with her husband . zonaras reconciles this age with the apostle , that the apostle speaks of widows , and this canon of virgins , tho it be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the canon . yet it seems some of these deaconesses have given scandal in the church , and perhaps proved like the females among the pharisees , whom the rabbins reckoned among these who destroyed the world : and so we find the western church being scandalized at some miscarriages in this order , they are discharged to be ordained by the first council of orange , can. 26. diaconissae omnimodo non ordinandae , si quae jam sunt benedictioni quae populo impenditur , capita submittunt . and in the beginning of the sixth century , it seems they gave great scandal ; for canon 22. council epaun. they are simply discharged : viduarum consecrationem quas diaco●as vocant ab omni regione nostra penitus abrogamus , solam eis poenitentia benedictionem si converti ambiant imponendo . and anno 536. con. aurel. 2. c●● . 17. benedictio diaconatus , is said to be given to the women contra interdicta canonum . and the next canon of that council is , placuit etiam ut nulli postmodum foeminae diaconalis benedictio pro conditionis hujus fragilitate credatur . yet they are mentioned in the council of worms in the year 868. canon 73. where the 15. canon of chalcedon is wholly insert . one scandal we find occasioned by these deaconesses , was , that they presumed to distribute the elements in the eucharist ; which gelasius blames in his ninth epistle written to the bishops of lucani● , quod foeminae sacris altaribus ministrare ferantur . and this it seems hath continued longer : for we find ratherius of verona in the tenth century , appoints in his synodal epistle ( which in the tomes of the councils is printed as a sermon of pope leo the fourths ) nulla foemina ad altare domini accedat . and matthaeus blastaris in his syntagma , lit . 1. cap. 11. concludes it to be unknown what the office of the deaconesses was . some judged that they ministred to women , who being in age received baptism , it being accounted a crime for a man to see a woman naked . others thought that they might enter to the altar , and exercise the office of deacons , who proved this from many things , particularly from some words of nazianzen's oration at his sisters funeral , but that was afterwards forbidden 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; yet he doubts much the truth of that , it not agreeing with reason , that women who were not suffered publickly to teach , should be admitted to the office of a deacon , whose duty it was by the ministery of the word , to purifie these who were to be baptized . and after that he gives an account of the form of their ordination . mention likewise is made of them in the council in trullo , canon 14. a deaconess was not to receive imposition of band 's , before she was forty years of age . which is more expressly appointed in the 40. canon , where they decree , that though the apostle made the age 60. yet the canons had allowed their ordination at 40. because they found the church was become firmer in the grace of god , and had advanced forward : and by the 48. canon of that council , a bishop's wife , when separated from her husband by consent , was to live in a monastery , and if found worthy might be made a deaconess . basil by his 18. canon allows virgins to be received at the sixteenth or seventeenth year of their age , but by his 24. he reckons it a fault to receive a widow into the order under 60 : yet it seems that was not peremptorily observed . for in his 44 canon he speaks of deaconesses found in fornication , who might not be allowed to communicate before seven years had been past in penitence . whence this order failed in the greek church , we know not ; but balsamon on the 15. canon of chalcedon tells . that in his time deaconesses were no more ordained , and his reason is , because no woman was suffered to enter unto the altar , though ( saith he ) some women were abusively so called . as for the inferiour degrees of subdeacon , acolyth , &c. as they were only iuris ecclesiastici , so they were not designed for any sacred performance , nor had they any holy character upon them : but were intended as steps for those whom they were training up to sacred employments , and were but like the degrees given in universities . no mention is made of them in the first two centuries : ignatius is express that there is no intermedial step betwixt the laick , and the deacon , which stile we also meet in all the fathers before cyprian's time . he , epistle 24. speaks of the lectors and subdeacons , telling how he had ordained saturus a lector , and optatus a subdeacon , quos jam communi consilio clero proximos feceramus . and of the lectors , he saith , epist. 34. caeterum presbyterii honorem nos illis designasse sciatis . and by what follows , it is clear he means of a share in the maintenance of the church . epistle 28. he speaks of the subdeacons and acolyths , shewing how they likewise had a share in the divisions of the offerings made to the church . epistle 33. he tells of one aurelius , who had been twice a confessor in the persecution , whom he had ordained a lector , apologizing that he had done it without the consent of his clergy and people . in ordinationibus solemus vos ante consulere , & voces ac merita communi consilio ponderare ; sed expectanda non sunt testimonia humana , cum praecedant suffragia divina . and after he hath laid out the merits of the person , he adds , placuit tamen ut ab officio lectionis incipiat , quia & nihil magis congruit voci quae dominum gloriosâ praedicatione confessa est , quam celebrandis divinis lectionibus personare . of the same strain is his following epistle concerning celerinus , who had refused to be ordained a lector , until he was persuaded to it by a divine revelation in the night . likewise in his 76. epistle , he makes mention of exorcists : who are also mentioned by firmilian in his epistle , which is reckoned the 75. among cyprians . and at the same time cornelius , the bishop of rome , in his epistle ( insert by eusebius , lib. 6. cap. 43. ) wherein he gives account of the clergy were then at rome ; tells , that there were 46 presbyters , 7 deacons , 42 acolyths , 50 exorcists , lectors , and porters . these inferiour orders we see were then in the church . and since we have no earlier accounts of them , we may conclude their rise to have been about this time . a short account will suffice for their several employments , which will be best gathered from the several canons of the 4th council of carthage . canon 5. subdiaconus quum ordinatur , quia manus impositionem non accipit , patinam de episcopi manu accipiat vacuam , & calicem vacuum . de manu vero archidiaconi urceolum cum aquâ , & mantile , & manutergium . so his office was to look to the vessels for the eucharist , and to serve the deacons in that work . canon 6. acolythus quum ordinatur ab episcopo quidem doceatur , qualiter in officio suo agere debeat . sed ab archidiacono accipiat ceroferarium cum cereo ut sciat se ad accendenda ecclesiae luminaria mancipari , accipiat & urceolum vacuum , ad suggerendum vinum in eucharistiam sanguinis christi . as for these cerei , they shall be spoken of upon the next canon . the work of acolythus was to light the candles , and provide the wine : and from the ratio nominis , we may believe their office was particularly to wait upon the bishop , and follow him . canon 8. lector quum ordinatur , faciat de illo verbum episcopus ad plebem , indicans ejus fidem ac vitam , atque ingenium . posthaec spectante plebe tradat ei codicem , de quo lecturus est , dicens ad eum : accipe , & esto lector verbi dei , habiturus , si fideliter & utiliter impleveris officium , partem cum eis , qui verbum dei ministraverunt . and by what hath been already cited out of cyprian compared with this , it appears , that the office of the lector was judged that of the greatest importance of them all . canon 9. ostiarius quum ordinatur postquam ab archidiacono instructus fuerit , qualiter in domo dei debeat conversari , ad suggestionem archidiaconi , tradat & episcopus claves ecclesiae de altario , dicens : sic age , quasi redditurus deo rationem pro bis rebus , quae his clavibus recluduntur . canon 10. psalmista , id est , cantor potest absque scientia episcopi , solâ jussione presbyteri , officium suscipere cantandi , dicente sibi presbytero ; vide , ut quod ore cantas , corde credas ; & quod corde credis , operibus comprobes . now the psalmistae were these that were the singers , for it was appointed in the council of laodicea , that none might sing in the church , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that is , those of the suggestum , or pulpit . but because the 7. canon will afford more matter of question , i have reserved it last . exorcista quum ordinatur , accipiat de manu episcopi libellum , in quo scripti sunt exorcismi , dicente sibi episcopo : accipe , & commenda memoriae , & habato potestatem imponendi manum super energumenum , sive baptizatum , sive catechumenum . but for examining this of the exorcist , we must run a little back . the iews under the second temple were much addicted to magick . in the talmud it is given as a necessary qualification of one that might be of the sanhedrin , that he should be skilled in all magick doctrines and charms . and in the inner court of the temple , called the court of israel , there was a chamber said to have been built by one parva a magician , by the art of magick , from whom it was called happarva : and much of what they say of the bath-col , seems to hint that it was an effect of magick . many places are also cited out of the talmud , of their rabbies killing one another by that art ; and so highly do they extol it , that many of them thought that all miracles were wrought by the exact knowledg of the cabbalistick arts , and it is well enough known how that abounded among the heathens . ulpian made a law against these physicians who cured diseases by exorcisms . we see our lord triumphed over the powers of darkness , who were then raging through the world : and that the oracles were silenced at this time , is confessed by heathens . neither did this gift of casting out devils , conferred by our lord on his disciples , die with them , but remain some ages in the church . tertullian speaks of it as a gift communicated to all christians . de coronâ mil. he tells , that some soldiers did exorcismis fugare spiritus malignos : and de idololatriâ , cap. 11. quo ore christianus thurarius ( this is one that offered incense to idols ) si per templa transibit , fumantes aras despuet , & exsufflabit , quibus ipse prospexit : quâ constantiâ exorcizabit alumnos suos , quibus domum suam cellariam praestat . so that he hath understood this power of exorcizing to have been the effect of every sincere christian's prayer . origen in his 35. tract . on matth. condemns the form of doing it , by adjuring the devils , saying that christ hath given us power to command them . est enim iudaicum adjurare daemonia . cyprian speaks of an exorcism ordinarily preceding baptism ; but prefers the vertue of baptism to that of exorcism , epist. 76. hodie etiam geritur , ut per exorcist as voce humanâ & potestate divinâ flagelletur , & uratur , & torqueatur diabolus ; & cum exire se & dimittere homines dei saepe dicat : in eo tamen quod dixerit , fallat — cum tamen ad aquam salutarem , &c. and ad demetrianum , he saith , o si audire eos velles , & videre , quando à nobis adjurantur & turquentur spiritalibus flagris , & verborum tormentis , de obsessis corporibus , ejiciuntur ; quando ejulantes & gementes voce humanâ , & potestate divinâ flagella , & verbera sentientes , venturum judicium confitentur . and much of this nature is to be met with among the primitive writers , which shews that the power of exorcising was an authority over devils . yet if this had been a formal office , reason will say it should rather have been among the highest than lowest orders , the work being so great and miraculous . but from the areopagite , and others , we are told , that before baptism there was used a renunciation of the devil , with a prayer for casting him out : and there is some probability that these called exorcists were only catechists , who had some formuls , whereby they taught , such as they instructed , to renounce the devil : and this with the prayer that accompanied it , was called an exorcism . nazianz. orat. in bapt. ne exorcismi medicinam asperneris , nec ob illius prolixitatem animo concidas , nam vel ut lapis quidam lydius est , ad quem exploratur , quam sincero quisque pectore ad baptismum accedat . cyril of ierusalem , praefat. in catech. festinent pedes tus ad catecheses audiendas , exorcismos studiose suscipe , etiamsi exorcizatus & inspiratus jam sis , salubris enim est tibi res ista . the council of laodicea , can. 26. discharged all to exorcize either in churches or houses , except these appointed for it by the bishops . and by the tenth canon of antioch , the rural bishops are warranted to constitute exorcists , from which we see they could not esteem that a wonder-working office. and balsamon in his sholion , makes them one with the catechists , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and on the canon of laodicea , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and towards the end of his gloss on that canon , he saith , that an exorcist though appointed by the chorepiscopus , and not by the bishop , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and beveregius cites harmenopolus to the same purpose on the tenth canon of antioch . from these evidences it is most probable to think , that the exorcists at first were nothing but catechists ; but afterwards , as all things do in any tract of time degenerate , they became corrupt , beyond perhaps either these of the iews or the gentiles ; so that the books of exorcisms now in the roman church , are so full of bombast terms , and odd receipts , that they are a stain to the christian church . and it is the most preposterous thing can be imagined , that what was given in the new testament for the greatest confirmation of the christian faith , should be made a constant office , and put in so mean hands . and to this i need not add the base arts and cheats discovered among that sort of people . i shall conclude this long tedious account of the sense the ancient church had of the several officers in it , with some words of tertullian , which i shall barely set down , without any descant on them , tho they have occasioned much perplexity to divers good antiquaries . tertullian in exortatione ad uxorem , cap. 7. saith : nonne & laici sacerdotes fumus ? scriptum est regnum quoque nos & sacerdotes deo & patri suo fecit . differentiam inter ordinem & plebem constituit ecclesiae authoritas , & honor per ordinis consessum sanctificatus . ideo ubi ecclesiastici ordinis non est consessus , & offers , & tingis & sacerdos es tibi solus , sed ubi tres sunt , ecclesia est , licet laici . but others read these words differently , their copies having them thus : sanctificatus à deo . ubi ecclesiastici ordinis est consessus , & offert , & tingit , sacerdos qui est ibi solus : sed ubi tres , ecclesia est , licet laici . finis . polyhistor to basilius . your desire , and my own promise , have engaged me to send you the enclosed papers : for the trouble the reading them may give you , my apology lies in my obedience ; and yet i have contracted things as much as i could , and perhaps have exceeded in my abridging : for had i let loose my pen in a descant on every particular , these few sheets had swelled to a volume . and my design was not to act the critick , but to be a faithful historian . these gleanings were intended partly for my own use , and partly for the direction of some under my charge in the study of antiquity ; and were written some years ago , when i had no thoughts of making them more publick , than by giving a few transcripts of them . but now i leave the midwifry of them to you , that you may either stifle this embryo , or give it a freer air to breath in . i have here only given you what related to the constitution and modelling of churches , referring to my observations on other canons , matters that come to be treated more properly upon their texts , as of the administration of all the parts of the pastoral charge , of all their forms in worship , and church-discipline , of their zeal against heresies and schisms , together with the methods used for reclaiming them ; and of the poverty , simplicity , abstraction from secular affairs , and sublime sanctity of the primitive bishops and presbyters . these with many other particulars , if well examined , as they will make the work swell to a huge bulk , so they will bring pleasure , as well as advantage , to such as desire a better acquaintance with the state of the church of god in her best times ; but what through the entanglements of affairs , and other avocations , what through their want of books , are not able to engage in so laborious an enquiry by searching the fountains themselves . i assure you , i have not gone upon trust , having taken my observations from the writings themselves , that i have vouched for my warrants . i once intended to have cited all the testimonies i brought in english ; and so to have avoided the pedantry of a babylonish dialect , as the french begin now to write . but observing that the foul play many have committed , hath put a jealousie in most readers of these citations , where the author's words are not quoted , i chused rather to hazard on the censure of being a pedant , than of an unfaithful wrester in my translations . only to save the writer the labour of writing much greek , which i found unacceptable , i do often cite the latin translations of the greek authors . i shall only add , that as i was causing write out these papers for you , there came to my hands one of the best works this age hath seen , beveregius his synopsis canonum . i quickly looked over these learned volumes , that i might give these sheets such improvements as could be borrowed from them , which indeed were not inconsiderable . i detain you too long , but shall importune you no more . i leave this to your censure , which i know to be severely critical in all such matters . your judgment being the wonder of all who know you , especially who consider how little your leisure allows you , to look unto things so far without the orb you move in : though nothing be without the vast circle of your comprehensive understanding , if you let loose these papers to a more publick view , let this paper accompany them , which may some way express the zeal of your faithfullest servant , who humbly bids you adieu . a sermon preached before the right honourable the house of lords in the abbey church at westminster, upon the 27th of august, 1645 being the day appointed for solemne and publique humiliation : whereunto is added a brotherly examination of some passages of mr. colemans late printed sermon upon job 11.20, in which he hath endeavoured to strike at the root of all church-government / by george gillespie, minister at edenburgh. gillespie, george, 1613-1648. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a42767 of text r30413 in the english short title catalog (wing g759). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 123 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 25 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a42767 wing g759 estc r30413 11310319 ocm 11310319 47415 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a42767) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 47415) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1461:46) a sermon preached before the right honourable the house of lords in the abbey church at westminster, upon the 27th of august, 1645 being the day appointed for solemne and publique humiliation : whereunto is added a brotherly examination of some passages of mr. colemans late printed sermon upon job 11.20, in which he hath endeavoured to strike at the root of all church-government / by george gillespie, minister at edenburgh. gillespie, george, 1613-1648. [4], 44 p. printed by f. neile for robert bostock ..., london : 1646. reproduction of original in the harvard university library. eng coleman, thomas, 1598-1647. bible. -o.t. -malachi iii, 2 -sermons. sermons, english -17th century. church polity -sermons. a42767 r30413 (wing g759). civilwar no a sermon preached before the right honourable the house of lords, in the abbey church at westminster, upon the 27th. of august. 1645. being gillespie, george 1646 24052 113 75 0 0 0 0 78 d the rate of 78 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the d category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2003-04 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-05 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-03 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2005-03 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a sermon preached before the right honourable the house of lords , in the abbey church at westminster , upon the 27th . of august . 1645. being the day appointed for solemne and publique humiliation . whereunto is added a brotherly examination of some passages of mr. colemans late printed sermon upon job . 11.20 . in which he hath endeavoured to strike at the root of all church-government . by george gillespie minister at edenburgh . hieron , in epitaphio fabiolae . alie sunt leges caesarum , aliae christi : aliud papinianus , aliud paulus noster praecipit . london : printed by f. neile for robert bostock dwelling in pauls church-yard at the sign of the kings head . 1646. to the christian reader . i have in this sermon applied my thoughts toward these three things ; 1 the soul-ensnaring errour of the greatest part of men , who choose to themselves such a way to the kingdom of heaven as is broad , and smooth , and easie , and but little or nothing at all displeasing to flesh and blood ; like him that tumbled down upon the grasse and said , utinam hoc esset laborare . 2 the grumbling and unwillingnesse which appeareth in very many , when they should submit to that reformation of the church which is according to the minde of jesus christ ; like them that said to the seers , see not ; and to the prophets , prophecy not unto us right things ; speak unto us smooth things ; and again , let us break their lands asunder , and cast away their cords from us . 3 the sad and desolate condition of the kingdom of scotland , then calling for our prayers and tears , and saying , call me not naomi ( pleasant ) call me morah ( bitter ) for the almighty hath dealt very bitterly with me . we were pressed out of measure , above strength , and had the sentence of death in our selves , that wee should not trust in our selves , but in god which raiseth the dead ; who delivered us from so great a death , and doth deliver , in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us ; our brethren also helping together by prayer for us , that for the mercy bestowed on us by means of the prayers of many , thanks may be given by many on our behalf . the lord liveth , and blessed be our rock , and let the god of our salvation be exalted . he is our god , and we will prepare for him an habitation ; our fathers god , and we will exalt him . blessed be the lord god the god of israel , who onely doth wondrous things : and blessed be his glorious name for ever , and let the whole earth befilled with his glory . scotland shall yet be a crown of glory in the hand of the lord , and a royall diademe in the hand of our god , and shall be called hephzi-hah and beulah . only let us remember our evill wayes , and be confounded , and never open our mouth any more because of our shame , when the lord our god is pacified towards us . now are both kingdoms put to a triall , whether their humiliations be siliall , and whether they can mourn for sin more then for judgement . and let us now hear what the spirit speaketh to the churches , and not turn again to folly . new provocations , or the old unrepented , will create new woes ; therefore sin no more , lest a worse thing come unto us . a sermon preached before the right honourable the house of peers , at a late solemn fast .. malachi 3.2 . but who may abide the day of his coming , and who shall stand when he appeareth ? for he is like a refiners fire , and like fullers sope. if you ask , of whom speaketh the prophet this , of himselfe or of some other man ? it is answered , both by christian and jewish interpreters : the prophet speaketh this of christ , the messenger of the covenant , then much longed and looked for by the people of god , as is manifest by the preceding verse : and as it was fit that malachi the last of the prophets should shut up the old testament with clear promises of the coming of christ ( which you find in this , and in the following chapter ) so he takes the rather occasion from the corrupt and degenerate estate of the priests at that time ( which he had mentioned in the former chapter ) to hold forth unto the church the promised messiah ; who was to come unto them to purifie the sons of levi . but if you ask again , of what coming or appearing of christ , doth the prophet speak this ? whether of the first , or of the last , or of any other ? the answer of expositors is not so unanimous . some understand the last coming of christ in the glory of his father , and holy angels , to judge the quick and the dead . this cannot stand with ver. 34. he shall purifie the sons of levi , and purge them , &c. but at the last judgement it will be too late for the sons of levi to be purified and purged ; or for juda and jerusalem to bring offerings unto the lord , as in the dayes of old . others understand the first coming of christ ; and of these , some understand his incarnation , or appearing in the flesh : others take the meaning to be of his coming into the temple of jerusalem , to drive out the buyers and sellers , at which time all the city was moved at his coming . this exposition hath better grounds then the other , because the coming of christ ( here spoken of ) did not precede , but soon follow after the ministery of john baptist ; and therefore cannot be meant of our saviours incarnation , but rather of his appearing with power and authority in the temple . but this also falleth short , and neither expresseth the whole , nor the principall part of what is meant in this text : for how can it be said , that the prophecy which followeth , vers. 3 , 4. ( which is all of a peece with vers. 2. ) was fulfilled during christs appearing and sitting in the temple of jerusalem ? or how can it be conceived , that the offerings of juda and jerusalem were pleasant to the lord at that time , when the gentiles were not , and the jews would not be brought in , to offer unto the lord an offering in righteousnesse ? so that whether we understand by juda and jerusalem , the jewish church , or the christian ; this thing could not be said to be accomplished , while christ was yet upon earth . and in like manner , whether we understand by the sons of levi , the priests , and levites of the jews , or , the ministers of the gospel , it cannot be said that christ did in the dayes of his flesh purifie the sons of levi , as gold and silver . i deny not , but the lord jesus did then begin to set about this work . but that which is more principally here intended , is christs coming and appearing in a spiritual , but yet most powerfull and glorious manner , to erect his kingdom , and to gather and govern his churches , by the ministery of his apostles and other ministers , whom he sent forth after his ascension . of this coming he himself speaketh , matth. 16.28 . verily i say unto you , there be some standing here which shall not taste of death , till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom . mark addeth with power . neither was that all . he did not so come at that time , as to put forth all his power , or to do his whole work . he hath at divers times come , and manifested himself to his churches . and this present time is a time of the revelation of the son of god , and a day of his coming . we look also for a more glorious coming of jesus christ , before the end be ; for the redeemer shall come unt● sion , and turn a way ungodlinesse from jacob . and he shall destroy antichrist with the brightnesse of his coming , 2 thes. 2.8 . in which place the apostle hath respect to isai. 11.4 . where it is said of christ , the rod of jesse , with the breath of his lips shall be slay the wicked . there withall , you have the churches tranquility , the filling of the earth with the knowledge of the lord , and the restoring of the dispersed jews , as you may read in that chapter . some have observed ( which ought not passe without observation ) that the chaldee paraphrase had there added , the word romilus : he shall slay the wicked romilus : wherupon , they challenge arias montainus for leaving out that word to wipe off the reproach from the pope . however , the scriptures teach us , that the lord jesus will be revealed mightily , and will make bare his holy arm , as well in the confusion of antichrist , as in the conversion of the jews , before the last judgement , and the end of all things . by this time you may understand what is meant in the text , by the day of christs coming , or coming in , as the septuagints read , meaning his coming or entering into his temple , mentioned in the first verse : by which temple , jerome upon the place , rightly understandeth the church , or spirituall temple . when this temple is built christ cometh into it , to fill the house with the cloud of his glory , and to walk in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks . the same thing is meant by his appearing , when he appeareth , saith our translation : when he shall be revealed , saith the chaldee : others read , when he shall be seen , or in seeing of him . the originall word i find used to expresse more remarkable , divine , and glorious sights , as gen. 16.13 . have i also here looked after him that seeth me ? gen. 22.14 . in the mount of the lord it shall be seen . from this word had the prophets the name of seers , 1 s●m . 9.9 . and from the same word came the name of visions , 2 chron. 26.5 . zechariah who had understanding in the visions of god . now but what of all this , might some think ? it christ come , it s well : he is the desire of all nations . o but when christ thus cometh into his kingdom among men with power , and is seen appearing with some beams of his glory ; who may abide , and who shall stand , saith the text ? how shall sinners stand before the holy one ? how shall dust and ashes have any fellowship with the god of glory ? how shall our weak eyes behold the sun of righteousnesse , coming forth like a bridegroom out of his chamber ? did not ezekiel fall upon his face at the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the lord ? did not isaiah cry out , wo is me , for i am undone , for mine eyes have seen the king , the lord of hosts ? but why is it so hard a thing to abide the day of christs coming , or to stand before him when he appeareth in his temple ? if you ask of him as joshua did , art thou for us , or for our adversaries ? he will answer you , nay , but as a captain of the hoste of the lord , am i now come . if you ask of him , as the elders of bethlehem asked of samuel ( while they were trembling at his coming ) comest thou peaceably ? he will answer you as samuel did , peaceably . what is there here then to trouble us ? doth he not come to save , and not to destroy ? yes , to save the spirit , but to destroy the flesh . he will have the heart blood of sin , that the soul may live for ever . this is set forth by a double metaphor : one taken from the refiners fire , which purifieth metals from the drosse . the other , from the fullers sope ; others read , the fullers grasse , or the fullers herb . some have thought it so hard to determine , that they have kept into the translation , the very hebrew word borith . jerome tels us , that the fullers herb which grew in the marish places of palestina , had the same vertue for washing and making white , which nitre hath . yet i suppose , the fullers sope hath more of that vertue in it , then the herb could have . however , it is certain that borith cometh from a word which signifieth to make clean , according to that , mark 9.3 . his raiment became shining , exceeding white as snow : so as no fuller on earth can white them . but to whom will christ thus reveal himself ? and who are they whom he will resine from their drosse , and wash from their filthinesse ? that we may know from the two following verses . he is not a resiners fire to those that are reprobate silver , and can never be refined : neither is he as fullers sope to those whose spot is not the spot of his children . nay , christ doth not thus lose his labour : but he refineth and maketh clean the sons of levi , also judah and jerusalem . this ( i doubt not to aver ) doth principally belong to the jews , for to them pertain the promises , saith the apostle , and the naturall branches shall be grafted into their own olive-tree . but it belongeth also to us gentiles , who are cut out of the wilde olive-tree , and are grafted into the good olive-tree , god hath perswaded japhet to dwell in the tents of sem. and so we are now the judah and jerusalem , and our ministers , the sons of levi. gods own church and people , even the best of them have need of this refiners fire , and of this fullers sope . and so much for the scope , sence , and coherence of the text . the generall doctrine which offereth it self to us from the words , is this : the way of christ , and fellowship with him , is very difficult and displeasing to our sinfull nature : and is not so easie a matter as most men imagine first of all , this doth clearly arise out of the text . as when the people said to joshua , god forbid that we should forsake the lord , to serve other gods . joshua answered , ye cannot serve the lord , for he is an holy god , he is a jealous god . just so doth the prophet here answer the jews , when they were very much desiring and longing for the messiah , promising to themselves comfort , and peace , and prosperity , and the restoring of all things according to their hearts desire , if christ were once come . nay , saith the prophet , not so : who may abide the day of his coming , and who shall stand when he appeareth ? secondly , other scriptures do abundantly confirm it . the doctrine of jesus christ was such as made many of his disciples say , this is a hard saying , who can hear it ? and from that time many of them went back , and walked no more with him . a young man , a ruler , who came to him with great affection , was so cooled and discouraged at hearing of the crosse , and selling of all he had , that he went away sad and sorrowfull . the apostles themselves having heard him say , that , it is easier for a camel to go thorow the eye of a needle , then for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of god ; they were exceedingly amazed at this doctrine , saying , who then can be saved ? as for his life and actions , they were such , not onely did the gadarens beseech him to depart out of their coasts ; but his own friends and kinsfolks were about to lay hold on him ; for they said , he is beside himself . his sufferings were such , that all his disciples did forsake him , and went away every man to his own home again . and what shall be the condition of those that will follow him ? if we will indeed be his disciples , he hath forewarned us to sit down first , and count our cost . he hath told us , it will cost us no lesse then the bearing of the crosse , the forsaking of all , yea , ( which is hardest of all ) the denying of our selves : we must even cease to be our selves , and cannot be his , except we leave off to be our own . and what shall the world think of us , all this while ? know ye not , ( saith james ) that the friendship of this world is enmity with god ? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world , is the enemy of god . let no man deceive himself , saith paul : if any man among you seem to be wise in this world , let him become a fool , that he may be wise . what do ye think now ? are not all these hard sayings for flesh and blood to hear ? i might adde much more of this kinde . but thirdly , thus it must be , to set the higher value upon christ , and upon the lot of gods children . will i offer burnt-offerings to the lord my god , saith david , of that which doth cost me nothing ? and shall our lines fall to us in pleasant places ? or shall we have a goodly heritage , which doth cost us nothing ? how should the preciousnesse of the saints portion be known , if we lose nothing that is dear to us , to come by it ? phil. 3.7 . what things were gain to me , those i counted losse for christ . matth. 13.44 , 45 , 46. the kingdom of heaven is like unto a treasure hid in a field , the which when a man hath found , he hideth , and for joy thereof , goeth , and selleth all that he hath , and buyeth that field . again , the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant-man seeking goodly pearls , who when he had found one pearl of great price , he went and sold all that he had , and bought it . jacobs family must give away all the strange gods , and all their ear-rings also , before they get leave to build an altar unto the lord at bethel . abraham must get him out of his countrey , and from his kinred , if he will come unto the land which the lord will shew him . moses must forsake the court of egypt , if he will take him to the heritage of jacob his father . the disciples must leave ships , nets , fathers , and all , if they will follow christ . and as they who come in sight of the south-pole , lose fight of the north-pole : so when we follow-christ , we must resolve to forsake somewhat else , yea , even that which is dearest to us . fourthly , if it were not so , there should be no sure evidence of our closing in covenant with christ : for then ( and never till then ) doth the soul give it self up to christ to be his , and closeth with him in a covenant , when it renounceth all other lovers , that it may be his onely . shall a woman be married to a husband , with the reservation of another lover , or upon condition that she shall ever stay in her fathers house ? so the soul cannot be married to christ , except it not onely renounce its bosome-sins , lusts , and idols ; but be content also to part with the most lawfull creature-comforts for his sake . forget thine own people , and thy fathers house , saith the psal. 45.10 . the repudiating of creature-comforts , and a covenant with christ , go hand in hand together , isa. 55.2 , 3. nahash would not make a covenant with the men of jabesh-gilead , unlesse they would pluck out their right eyes , intending ( as josephus gives the reason ) to disable them from fighting , or making war : for the buckler or shield did cover their left eye when they fought , so that they had been hard put to it , to fight without the right eye . this was a cruell mercy in him : but it is a mercifull severity in christ , that he will make no covenant with us , except the right eye of the old man of sin in us be put out . o then let us learn from all this , how miserably many a poor soul is deluded , imagining as the jews did , that christ shall even satisfie their carnall and earthly desires , and that the way of salvation is broad , & easie enough . if the way of christ be such as you have now heard , then surely they are far from it ; who give loose reins to the flesh , as david did to adonijah , who have not displeased their flesh at any time , nor said , why hast thou done so ? who do not withhold their heart from any joy , and whatsoever their eyes desire , they keep it not from them : who are like the wiide asse used to the wildernesse , that snuffeth up the winde at her pleasure ; and like the swift dromedary , traversing her wayes : who cannot endure to be inclosed into so narrow a lane , as ministers describe the way to heaven to be . these are like fed oxen , which have room enough in the meadows , but they are appointed for slaughter ; when the labouring oxen which are kept under the yoke , shall be brought home to the stall and fed there . was it not so with the rich man and lazarus ? nay , and many of the children of god fall into this same errour , of making the way of christ broader and easier then ever christ made it , and taking more libertie then ever he allowed . therefore mark ye well our saviours words , matth. 7.13 , 14. enter ye in at the strait gate ; for wide is the gate , and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction , and many there be which go in thereat . because strait is the gate , and narrow is the way which leadeth unto life , and few there be that finde it . there be but few that seek it , and yet fewer that finde it , but fewest of all that enter in at it . but how doth all this agree with matth. 11.30 . my yoke is easie , and my burthen is light : and 1 joh. 5.3 . his commandments are not grievous ? i answer . 1. that is spoken to poor souls that are labouring , and heavy loaden ; a metaphor taken from beasts drawing a ful cart , which both labour in drawing , and are weary in bearing . but my text speaketh to those that are like undantoned heifers , and like bullocks unaccustomed to the yoke : the same christ is a sweet and meek christ to some ; but a sowre and severe christ to others . 2. christs yoke is easie in comparison of the yoke of the law , which neither we , nor our fathers were able to bear . 3. as wisdom is easie to him that understandeth , so is christs yoke easie , & his burthen light to those that are well acquainted with it , and have good experience of it , prov. 4.12 . when thou g●est , thy steps shall not be straitned , and when thou runnest , thou shalt not stumble : this is spoken of the way of wisdom ; but he saith , when thou goest , not , when thou beginnest , or , when thou enterest . if thou art but once upon thy progresse , going and running , thou shalt finde the way still the easier , and still the sweeter . 4. mark christs own words . it s a yoke though an easie one ; and a burthen , though a light-one . a yoke to the flesh , but easie to the spirit : a burthen to the old man ; but light to the new man . he poureth in wine and oyl into our wounds . oyl to cherish them , and wine to cleanse them . he can both plant us as trees of righteousnesse , and at the same time lay the ax to the root of the old tree . he will have mercy upon the sinner , but no mercy upon the sin . he will save the soul , but yet so as by fire . and thus much in generall of the difficulty and hardship of the way of christ ; the great point held forth in this text , which i have the rather insisted upon , as a necessary foundation for those particulars , which i am to speak of . were this principle but rightly apprehended , it were easie to perswade you , when we come to particulars . some papists have alledged this text for their purgatory . here is indeed a purgatory , and a fire of purgatory ; and such a purgatory , that we must needs go thorow it , before we can come to heaven : but this purgatory is in this world , not in the world to come . the flesh must go through it , and not the soul separated : and it must purge us from mortall , not from veniall sins : and by a spirituall , not a materiall fire . i will now come to the particulars . christ is to us as a refiners fire , and as fullers sope , three wayes : in respect of 1. reformation . 2. tribulation . 3. mortification . which make not three different sences , but three harmonious parts of one and the same sence . i begin with reformation , concerning which i draw this doctrine from the text . the right reformation of the church , which is according to the minde of iesus christ , is not without much molestation , and displeasure to mens corrupt nature . it is a very purgatory upon earth : it s like the fire to drossy silver : and like fullers sope to slovenly persons , who would rather keep the spots in their garments , then take pains to wash them out . look but upon one peece of the accomplishment of this prophecy , and by it , judge of the rest . when christ cometh to jerusalem meek , and sitting upon an asse ( as the prophet said ) all the city is troubled at his coming , matth. 21.5 , 10. when he had but cast out the buyers and sellers out of the temple , the priests and scribes begin to plot his death , luke 19.45 , 47. nay , where christ and the gospel cometh , there is a shaking of heaven and earth , hag. 2.6 . the lesse wonder , if i call reformation like a refiners fire . the drosse of a church is not purged away without this violence of fire . this is the manner of reformation held forth in scripture , and that in reference . 1. to magistrates and states men . 2. to ministers . 3. to a people reformed . 4. to a people not reformed . in reference to magistrates and states-men , reformation is a fire that purgeth away the drosse , isa. 1.25 , ●6 . and i will turn my hand upon thee , and purely purge away the drosse , and take away all thy tin . here 's the refiners fire : and the chaldee paraphrase addeth the fullers borith . then followeth , and i will restore thy judges as at the first , and thy counsellors as at the beginning : afterward , thou shalt be called the city of righteousnesse , the faithfull city . interpreters note upon that place , that no effectuall reformation can be looked for , till rulers and magistrates be reformed ; and that therefore the lord promiseth to purge away the drosse and tin of corrupt rulers and judges , and to give his people such judges and rulers as they had of old , moses , joshua , the judges , david , solomon , and the like . in reference to ministers , the doctrine is most clear . the next words after my text , tell you ; that this refining fire is specially intended for purifying the sons of levi. the same thing we have move largely , though more obscurely , in 1 cor. 3.12 . to ver. 15. i do not say , that the apostles there meaneth onely of times of reformation : but this i say , that it holdeth true , and most manifestly too , of times of reformation ; and that this is not to be excluded , but to be taken in as a principall part of the holy ghosts intendment in that scripture . he is speaking of the ministers of the gospel and their ministery , supposing alwayes that they build upon christ , and hold to that true foundation : upon this foundation some build gold , silv er , precious stones , that is , such preaching of the word , such administration of the sacraments , such a church-discipline , and such a life as is according to the word , and favoureth of christ : others build wood , hay , stubble , whereby is meant whatsoever in their ministery is improfitable , unedifying , vain , curious , unbeseeming the gospel ; for the ministers of christ must be purified , not onely from heresie , idolatry , prophanenesse , and the like , but even from that which is frothy and unedifying , which favoureth not of gods spirit , but of mans . now saith the apostle , every mans work shall be made manifest , for the day shall declare it , because it shall be revealed by fire , and the fire shall try every mans work of what sort it is . the church shall not alwayes be deluded and abused with vanities that cannot profit . a time of light and reformation discovereth the unprofitablenesse of those things wherewith men did formerly please and satisfie themselves . there is a fire which will prove every mans work , even an accurate trial and strict examination thereof , according to the rule of christ : a narrow enquiry into , and exact discovery of every mans work ( for so do our divines understand the fire there spoken of ) whether this fiery triall be made by the searching and discovering light of the word in a time of reformation , or by afflictions , or in a mans own conscience at the hour of death . if by some or all of these trials , a ministers work be found to be what it ought to be , he shall receive a speciall reward & praise ; but if he have built wood , hay , and stubble , he shall be like a man whose house is set on fire about his ears , that is , he shall suffer losse , and his work shall be burnt , yet himself shall escape , and get his life for a prey , so as by fire , that is , so that he can abide that triall and examination , whereby god distinguisheth between sincere ones and hypocrites ; or , so that he be found to have been otherwise a faithfull minister , and to have built upon a right foundation . in the third place , you shall finde reformation to be a refining fire , in reference to a people or church reformed . he that is left in zion shall be called holy , saith the prophet , when the lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of zion , and shall have purged the blood of jerusalem from the midst thereof , by the spirit of judgement , and by the spirit of burning , isa. 4.3 , 4. where you may understand by the filth of the daughters of zion , their former idolatries , and such like abominations against the first table ( which the prophets call often by the name of filth and pollution ) and by the blood of jerusalem , the sins against the second table . these the lord promiseth to purge away by the spirit of judgment , that is , by a spirit of reformation ( according to that , joh. 12.3 . now is the judgement of this world , now shall the prince of this world be cast out : ) which spirit of reformation is also a spirit of burning ; even as the holy ghost is elsewhere called fire , and did come down upon the apostles in the likenesse of cloven tongues of fire . the spirit of reformation may be the rather called the spirit of burning , because ordinarily reformation is not without tribulation ( as we shall hear ) and by the voice of the rod doth the spirit speak to mens consciences . when the lord hath thus washed away the filthy spots , and burnt away the filthy drosse of his church , then ( isa. 4.5 . ) she becomes a glory or a praise in the earth , and the promise is , that upon all the glory shall be a defence : but you see she is not brought to that condition , till she go thorow the refiners fire . it is no easie matter to cast satan out of a person ; how much lesse to cast his kingdom out of a land ? another place for the same purpose we find , zech. 13.9 . when two parts of the land are cut off , the remnant whichescape , the third part which is written to life in jerusalem , even they must be brought thorow the fire i will bring the third part through the fire , saith the lord , and will refine them as silver is refined , and will try them as gold is tried . this is the fiery triall of affliction , but the fruit of it is a blessed reformation to make the church , as most pure refined gold . they shall call on my name , and i will hear them , that is , they shall no longer worship idols , but me onely , and they shall offer to the lord an offering in righteousnesse , which shall be accepted ; and what more ? i will say , it is my people ; and they shall say , the lord is my god : behold , a reforming people , and a covenanting people : but he that hath his fire in zion , and his furnace in jerusalem , doth first refine them , and purifie them . we are not reformed in gods account , till the refining sire have purged away our drosse , till we be refined as silver is refined , and tried as gold is tried . lastly , in reference to a people not reformed , hear what the prophet saith , jer. 6.28 , 29 , 30. they are brasse and iron , they are all corrupters : the bellows are burnt , the lead is consumed off the fire , the founder melteth in vain ; for the wicked are not plucked away . reprobate silver shall men call them , because the lord hath rejected them . the chaldee paraphrase expoundeth it of the prophets who laboured in vain , and spent their strength for nought , speaking to the people in the name of the lord , to turn to the law and to the testimony ; but they would not turn . i might draw many vses from this doctrine : but i shall content my self with these few . first of all , it reproveth that contrary principle which carnal reason suggesteth : reformation must not grieve , but please it must not break nor bruise , but heal and binde up ; it must be an acceptable thing , not displeasing : it must be as the voice of harpers harping with their harps , but not as the voice of many waters , or as the voice of great thunders . thus would many heal the wound of the daughter of zion slightly , and daub the wall with untempered morter ; and so far comply with the sinfull humours and inclinations of men , as in effect to harden them in evil , and to strengthen their hands in their wickednesse ; or at least , if men be moralized , then to trouble them no further . saith not the apostle , if i yet pleased men , i should not be the servant of christ ? and again , the carnall minde is enmity against god , and is not subject to the law of god , neither indeed can be . so that either we must have a reformation , displeasing to god , or displeasing to men . it is not thright reformation , which is not displeasing to a tobijah , to a sanballat , to a demetrius , to the earthly-minded , to the self-seeking polititians , to the carnal and profane . it s but the old enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent . nay , what if reformation be displeasing to good men , in so far as they are unregenerate , carnal , earthly , proud , unmortified ? ( for who can say , i have made my heart clean , i am pure from my sin ? ) what if a joshua envie eldad and medad ? what if an aaron and a miriam speak against moses ? what if a religious asa be wroth with the seer ? what if a david will not alter his former judgement , though very erroneous , and will not ( no , not after better information ) have it thought that he was in an errour ? what if a jonah refuse to go to nineveh , when he is called ? what if the disciples of christ must be taught to be more humble ? what if peter must be reproved by paul for his dissimulation ? what if archippus must be admonished to attend better upon his ministery ? what if christ must tell the angels of the churches , that he hath somewhat against them ? if reformation displease both evil men , and ( in some respect ) good men ; this makes it no worse then a refiners fire ; and so it must be , if it be according to the minde of christ . my second and chief application shal be unto you , my noble lords . if you be willing to admit such a reformation as is according to the minde of christ , as is like the refiners fire and fullers sope ; then , in the name of the lord jesus christ , ( who will say , ere long , to every one of you , give an account of the stewardship ; for thou mayest be no longer steward ) i recommend these three things unto you ; i mean , that you should make use of this refining fire in reference to three sorts of drosse . 1. the drosse of malignancy . 2. the drosse of heresie and corruption in religion . 3. the drosse of profanenesse . touching the first of these , take the wise counsell of the wise man , prov. 24.4 , 5. take away the drosse from the silver , and there shall come forth a vessel for the finer . take away the wicked from before the king , and his throne shall be established in righteousnesse . remember also the fourth article of your solemn league and covenant , by which you have obliged your selves , with your hands lifted up to the most high god , to endeavour the discovery , triall , and condign punishment of all such as have been or shall be incendiaries , malignants , or evil instruments , by hindering the reformation of religion , dividing the king from his people , or one of the kingdoms from another , or making any faction or parties among the people contrary to this covenant . there was once a compliance between the nobles of judah and the samaritanes , which i hope you do not read of , without abominating the thing : you find it , nehem. 6.17.19 . in those dayes , the nobles of judah sent many letters to tobijah , and the letters of tobijah came unto them . also ( saith nehemiah ) they reported his good deeds before me , and uttered by words to him . but you have also the errour of a godly man set before you as a rock to be avoided , 2 chron. 19.2 . shouldst thou help the ungodly , and love them that hate the lord ? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the lord . i am not to dwell upon this point : i speak as to wise men , judge ye what i say . in the second place , think of the extirpation of heresie , and of unsound dangerous doctrine , such as now springeth up apace , and subverteth the faith of many . there is no heretick nor false teacher , which hath not some one fair pretext or another : but bring him once to be tried by this refining fire , he is found to be like a potsheard covered with silver drosse . what is the chaff to the wheat , saith the lord ? and what is the drosse to the silver ? if this be the way of christ which my text speaketh of , then ( sure ) that which now passeth under the name of liberty of conscience , is not the way of christ . much hath been written of this question . for my part , i shall for the present onely offer this one argument : if liberty of conscience ought to be granted in matters of religion , it ought also to be granted in matters civil or military . but liberty of conscience ought not to be granted in matters civil or military , as is acknowledged : therfore neither ought it to be granted in matters of religion . put the case now there be some well-meaning men ( otherways void of offence ) who from the erroneous perswasion of their consciences , think it utterly sinfull , and contrary to the word of god , to take arms in the parliaments service , or to contribute to this present war , or to obey any ordinance of the lords and commons , which tendeth to the resisting of the kings forces : now compare this case with the case of a socinian , arminian , antinomian , or the like : they both plead for liberty of conscience : they both say , our conscience ought not to be compelled ; and if we do against our conscience , we sin . i beseech you , how can you give liberty of conscience to the heretick , and yet refuse liberty of conscience to him that is the conscientious recusant in point of the war ? i am sure there can be no answer given to this argument , which will not be resolved into this principle . mens consciences may be compelled for the good of the state , but not for the glory of god . we must not suffer the state to sink ; but if religion sink , we cannot help it . this is the plain english of it . when i speak against libertie of conscience , it is far from my meaning to advise any rigorous or violent course against such as being sound in the faith and holy in life , and not of a turbulent factious cariage , do differ in smaller matters from the common rule . let that day be darknes , let not god regard it from above , neither let the light shine upon it , in which it shall be said that the children of god in brittain are enemies and persecutors of each other . he is no good christian who will not say amen to the prayer of jesus christ , that all who are his may be one in him . if this be heartily wished , let it be effectually endeavoured . and let those who will choose a dividing way , rather then an uniting way , bear the blame . the third part of my application shall be to stir you up ( right honorable ) to a willing condescending to the setling of church-government in such a manner , as that neither ignorant nor scandalous persons may be admitted to the holy table of the lord . let there be in the house of god fullers sope to take off those who are spots in your feasts , and a resining fire to take away the drosse from the silver . thou puttest away all the wicked of the earth like drosse , saith david . take away therefore the wicked from before the king of glory ; for they shall not stand before him who hateth all workers of iniquity . you see god puts all profane ones in one categorie , and so should you . there is a like reason against seven , and against seventy scandals . or , if you please to make a catalogue of seven , you may , provided itbe such as god himself makes in the fifth verse of this chapter , where seven sorts are reckoned forth ( as some interpreters compute ) but the last of the seven , is generall and comprehensive , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , as the septuagints have it , and those that fear not me : those , saith one , who are called in the new testament {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ungodly . jerome noteth upon the place , that though men shall not be guilty of the aforementioned particulars , yet god makes this crime enough , that they are ungodly . nay i dare undertake to draw out of erastus himself ( the great adversarie ) a catalogue of seven sorts of persons to be kept off from the lords table , and such a catalogue as godly ministers can be content with . but of this elsewhere . most horribly hath the lords table been prophaned formerly in this kingdom , by the admission of scandalous persons , god will wink at it no longer : now is the opportunity of reformation . the parliament of england ( if any state in the world ) oweth much to jesus christ ; and he will take it very ill at your hands if ye do him not right in this . i say do him right , for , alas , what is it to ministers , it were more for their ease , and for pleasing of the people , to admit all : but a necessity is laid upon us that we dare not do it , and wo unto us , if we do it . and for your part , should you not establish such a rule as many put a difference between the precious and the vile , the clean and the unclean ; you shall in so far make the churches of christ in a worse condition , and more disabled to keep themselves pure , then either they were of old under pagan emperours , or now are under popish princes . you shall also strengthen instead if silencing the objections both of separatists and socinians , who have with more then a colour of advantage opened their mouthes wide against some reformed churches , for their not exercising of discipline against scandalous and prophane persons , and particularly for not suspending them from the sacrament of the lords supper . nay which is yet more , if you should refuse that which i speak of , you shall come short of that which heathen● themselves in their way did make conscience of : for they did interdict and keep-off from their holy things all such as they esteemed prophane and scandalous , whom therefore they called {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , that is , accused or delated persons : in this manner was alcibiades excommunicate at athens , and virginia at rome : the former recorded by plutarch , the latter by livius . i trust god shal never so far desert this parliament , as that in this particular , pagan and popish princes , separatills , socinians and heathens shall rise up in judgement against you . i am perswaded better things of you , and things that accompany salvation : and , namely , that you will not suffer the name and truth of god to be through you blasphemed and reproached . do ye not remember the sad sentence against eli and his house , because his sons made themselves vile , and he restrained them not , 1 sam. 3.13 . the apostle tels us , that the judgement of god abideth not onely those that commit sin , but those also who consent with them : roms. 1.32 . aquinas upon that place saith we may consent to the sins of others two waies . 1. directly by counselling , approving , &c. 2. indirectly , by not hindering when we can . and so did eli consent to the vilenesse of his sons , because though he reproved them he did not restrain them . there is a law , exod. 21.29 . if an ox were wont to push with his horn in time past , and it hath been testified to his owner , and he hath not kept him in , but that he hath killed a man or a woman , the ox shall be stoned , and his owner also shall be put to death . it could be no excuse to say , i intended no such thing , and it is a grief of heart to me , that such mischief is done . that which i ayme at , is this . the directory which you have lately established saith , the ignorant and the sca●d●lous are not fi● to receive this sacrament of the lords supper : and therefore ministers are appointed to warn all such in the name of christ , that they presume not to come to that holy table . it is now desired , that this ( which you have alreadie acknowledged to be according to the word of god and nature of that holy ordinance ) may be made effectuall● and for that end that the power of discipline be added to the power of doctrine : otherwise you are guilty in gods sight of not restraining those that make themselves vile . in the third and last place , i shall apply my doctrine to the sons of levi , and that in a twofold consideration . 1 actively . 2 passively . actively , because , if we be like our master , even followers of jesus christ , or partakers of his unction , then our ministery will have not onely light , but fire in it , we must be burning as well as shining lights ; not onely shining with the light of knowledge , and of the doctrine which is according to godlinesse , but burning also with zeal for reforming abuses , and purging of the church from the drosse thereof . which made ang●s●ine to apply propologically to ministers that which is said of the angels of heaven , psal. 104.4 . who maketh his angels spirits , and his ministers a flaming fire . sathan hath many incendiaries against the kingdom of christ . o that we were christs incendiaries against the kingdom of sathan . if we will indeed appear zealous for the lord , let it not seem strange if the adversaries of reformation say of us as they said of the apostles themselves . these that have turned the world upside down , are come hither also . yet it shall be no grief of heart to us afterward , but peace and joy unspeakable , that we have endeavoured to do our duty faithfully . passively also the application must be made , because the sons of levi must in the first place go through this refining fire themselves , and they most of all other men have need to be and must be refined from their drosse . i find in scripture that these three things had a beginning among the priests and prophets . i sin , error , and scandall beginneth at them . jer. 50.6 . their shepherds have caused them to go astray . and jer. 23.15 . from the prophets of jerusalem is prophanenesse gone out into all the land . 2 judgement begins at them . ezek. 9.6 . slay utterly old and young , and begin at my sanctuary . 3. the refining work of reformation beginneth or ought to begin at the purging and refining of the sons of levi , so you have it in the next words after my text , and 2 chron. 29. 4 , 5. &c. where hezekiah beginneth his reformation at the sa●ctifying of the priests and levites . but as it was then in judah , it s now in england , some of the sons of levi are more upright to sanctifie themselves then others . the fire that i spake of before will prove every man and his work . i am sorrie i have occasion to adde a third application but come on and i will shew you greater things than these . what will you say , if any be found among the sons of levi , that will neither be active nor passive in the establishing of the church-refining and sin-censuring government of jesus christ , but will needs appear upon the stage against it . this was done in a late sermon now come abroad , which hath given no small scandal , and offence . i am confident every other godly minister will say , let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth , before i do the like . i have done with that which the text holds forth concerning reformation . the second way how christ is like a refiners fire , and like fullers sope , is in respect of tribulation which either followeth , or accompanieth his coming into his temple . affliction is indeed a refining fire , psal. 66.10 . for thou o god hast proved us : thou hast tried us as silver is tried , vers. 12. we went through fire and through water , 1 pet. 1.6 , 7. ye are in heavinesse through manifold temptations , that the triall of your faith being much more precious then of gold that perisheth , though it be tried with fire , might be found unto praise , &c. affliction is also the fullers sope to purifie and make white , dan. 11.35 . and 12.10 . many shall be purified and made white , and tried : where the same word is used from which i said before , the fullers sope hath its name . the doctrine shall be this . tribulation doth either accompany or follow after the work of reformation , or purging of the house of god . so it was when christ himself came into his temple . luk. 12.49 . i am come to send fire on the earth , vers. 51. suppose ye that i am come to send peace on earth , i tell you nay ; but rather divis●●on . so it was when the apostles were sent forth into the world . peter applieth to that time the words of joel . and i will shew wonders in heaven above , and signes in earth beneath , blood and fire , and vapour of smoke , the sun shall be turned into darknesse , and the moon into blood . acts 2.19 , 20. the meaning is , such tribulation shall follow the gospel , which shall be like the darkening of the great lights of the world , and as it were a putting of heaven and earth out of their course , so great a change and calamity shall come . the experience both of the ancient and now-reformed churches doth also abundantly confirm this doctrine . neither must we think that all the calamities of the church are now overpast . who can be assured that that houre of greatest darknesse , the killing of the witnesses is past , and all that sad prophecie , rev. 11. fulfilled . and if some be not much mistaken , it is told , dan. 12.1 . that there shall be greater tribulation about the time of the jews conversion , then any we have yet seen . at that time , saith the angel to daniel , there shall be a time of trouble , such as never was since there was a nation , even to that same time : and at that time thy people shall be delivered , every 〈◊〉 that shall be found written in the book . i make haste to the uses , and first , let me give unto god the glory of his truth , if we have been deceived , surely he hath not deceived us , for he hath given us plain warning in his word , and hath not kept up from us , the worst things which ever have or ever shall come upon his church . and now when the sword of the lord hath gotten a charge against these three covenanting and reforming kingdoms , is this any other then the word of the lord , that when christ cometh into his temple , who may abide the day of his coming , and who shall stand , when he appeareth ? so he is like a refiners fire , and like fullers sope . and for the invasion of scotland by such an enemy after a reformation , is it any new thing ? may we not say that which is , hath been ? did not senacherib invade judah , after hezekiahs reformation . 2 chro● . 32.1 . and though after the reformation of asa , and after the reformation of jehosaphat also , the land had a short rest and a breathing time , yet not long after a forrain invasion followed both upon the one reformation and the other . nay , look what is the worst thing which hath befallen to scotland as yet , as much , yea worse hath formerly befallen to the church & people of god toward whom the lord had thoughts of peace , and not of evil ; to give them an expected end . i say it not for diminishing any thing either from the sin or shame of scotland ; the lord forbid , we will bear the indignation of the lord because we have sinned against him , we will lay our hand upon our mouth , and accept the punishment of our iniquity , we will bear our shame for ever , because our father hath spit in our face , our rock hath sold us , and our strength hath departed from us . but i say it by way of answering him , that reproacheth in the gates , and by way of pleading for the truth of god . some have objected to our reproach , that when the lord required the israelites to appear before him in jerusalem thrice a yeer , he promised that no man should invade their habitations in their absence , exod. 34.23.24 . which gracious providence of his , no doubt , saies one , continues still protecting all such as are employed by his command ; yet thath not been so with scotland , during the time of their armies being in england . i answer , besides that which hath been said already , even in this , the word and work of god do well agree , and that scripture ought not to be so applyed to us , except the canaanites , and the am●rites , and the jebusites of our time had been all cast out of our borders , ( we find this day too many of them lurking there , and waiting their opportunity ) for the septuagints , and many of the interpreters read that text thus , for when i shall cast out the nations before thee , and enlarge thy borders , no man shall desire thy land , when thou shall go up to appear before the lord thy god thrice in the yeer . and this is the true sence , read it as you will . for the promise is limited to the time of casting out the nations and inlarging their borders , ( which came not to passe till the dayes of solomon ) it is certain that from the time of making that promise , the people had not ever libertie and protection for keeping the three solemne feasts in the place of the sanctuary : as might be proved from divers forrain invasions and spoylings of that land for some yeers together , whereof we read in the book of the judges . but i go on . in the second place , let god have the glory of his just & righteous dealings . let us say with job , i will leave my comp●aint upon my self , and say unto god , shew me wherefore thou contendest with me . but by all means take heed you conceive not an ill opinion of the covenant and cause of god , or the reformation of religion , because of the tribulation which followeth thereupon . say not , it was a good old world when we burnt incense to the queen of heaven , for then we were well , and saw no evil . but ( said the people to jeremiah ) since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven , and to poure out drink-offerings to her , we have been consumed by the sword , and by the famine , jer. 44.17 , 18. to such i answer in the words of solomon , say not thou , what it is the cause that the former times were better then these , for thou diest not enquire wisely concerning this . was the peoples coming out of egypt , the cause why their carcasses did fall in the windernesse ? or was it their murmuring and rebelling against the lord , which brought that wrath upon them . if thou wilt enquire wisely concerning this thing , read zephaniah , cap. 1. in the dayes of i siah , even in the dayes of judahs best reformation , the lord sent this message by the prophet , i will utterly consume all things from off the land . v. 2. and i will bring distresse upon men , that they shall walk like blind men , and their bloud shall be poured out as dust , and their flesh as dung , vers. 17. what was the reason of it ? it is plainly told them , ( and let us take it all home to our selves ) because notwithstanding of that publick reformation , there was a remnant of baal in the land , and the chemarins , and those who halt between two opinions , who swear by the lord ( or to the lord which is expounded of the taking of the covenant in josiahs time ) but they swear by malcham also v. 4.5 . there are others who do not seek the lord nor enquire after him , and many that turn back from the lord in a course of back-sliding , v. 6. other clothed with strange apparell , vers. 8. others exercising violence and deceit , vers 9. a number of atheists also living among gods people , ver. 12. for these and the like causes doth the land mourn . it is not the covenant but the broken covenant , it is not the reformation , but the want of a reall and personall reformation , that hath drawn on the judgment . blessed are they who shall keep their garments clean , and shall be able to say , all this is come up on us , yet have we not forgotten thee , nor dealt falsely in thy covenant . thirdly , give god the glory of his wisdom , many are now crying , how long lord wilt thou hide thy self for ever ? shall thy wrath burn like fire ? your answer from god is , that the rod shall be indeed removed , and even cast into the fire in your stead , but when ? it shall be when the lord hath performed his whole work upon mount zion , and on jerusalem . isa. 1 0 12. if the iudgement have not yet done all the work it was sent for , then they shall go out from on fire , and another fire shall devoure them , saith the lord . god is a wise refiner , and will not take the silver out of the fire , till the drosse be purged away from it . he is a wise father who will not cast the rod of correction , till it have driven away all that folly which is bound up in the hearts of his children . behold , therefore saith the lord , i will gather you into the midst of jerusalem , as they gather silver and brasse , and iron , and lead , and tinne into the midst of the furnace , to blow the fire upon it , to melt it : so will i gather you in mine anger , and in my fury , and i will leave you there , and melt you . he speaks it to those who had escaped the captivity of jeboiakim , and also the captivity of jehoiachin , and thought they should be safe and secure in jerusalem , when their brethren were in babylon , i will gather you , saith the lord , even in the midst of jerusalem , and when thou think you are out of one furnace , you shall fall into another ; and if you will not be refined from your drosse , you shall never come out of that furnace , but i will melt you there , and leave you there , which did so come to passe ; for the residue that escaped to egypt , and thought to shelter themselves there , as likewise these that remained in jerusalem , and held out that siege with zedekias , even all these did fall under the sword , and the famine , and the pestilence , till they were consumed ; jer. 24.8.10 . let those that are longest spared , take heed they be not ●orest smitten . say not with agag , the bitternesse of death is past . the child chast●ed in the afternoon , weeps as sore as the child chastised in the forenoon . remember the lord will not take away the judgement till he have performed his work ; yea his whole work ; and that upon mount zion and jerusalem it self . it is no light matter , the rod must be very heavy before our uncircumcised heart can be humbled , and the furnace very hot , before our drosse depart from us . we have need of all the ●ore strokes which we mourn under , and if one lesse could do the turn it should be spared , for the lord doth not afflict willingly ; we our selves rive every stroke out of his hand . but in the fourth and last place , let us give god the glory of his mercy also , he means to do us good in our latter end . it is the hand of a father , not of an enemy : it is a refining , not a consuming fire . the poor mourners in zion are ready to say , our bones are dried , and our hope is lost , we are cut off for our parts : we are like to lie in this fire and furnace for ever , because our drosse is is not departed from us , we are stil an unhumbled , an unbroken , an unmortified generation ; yea , many like ahaz in the time of affliction trespassing yet more against the lord , many thinking of going back again to egypt . to such i have these two things to say for their comfort : first , there is a remnant which shall not onely be delivered , but purified , and shall come forth as gold out of the fire . the third part shall be refined , and the lord shall say , it is my people , zach. 13.9 . and a most sweet promise there is after the saddest denunciation of judgement , ezek. 14.22 , 23. yet behold therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought both sons and daughters , ●ehold they shall come forth unto you , and ye shall see their way and their doings , and ye shall be comforted concerning the evill that i have brought upon jerusalem , even concerning all that i have brought upon it . and they shall comfort you when you see their wayes and their doing● : and ye shall know that i have not done without cause all that i have done in it , saith the lord god . dan. 12.10 . many shall be purified and made and tried : but the wicked shall do wickedly , and none of the wicked shall understand , but the wise shall understand , jer. 24.7 . after the promise of delivering those that were carried away to babylon , there is a nother promise added of that which was much better : i will give an heart to know me that i am thy lord , and they shall be my people , and i will be their god , for they shall return unto me with their whole heart , psal. 130.8 he shall redeem israel from all his iniquities , zebp . 3.12 , 13. i will also leave in the mid●● them an afflicted and poore people , and they shall trust in the name of the lord . the remnant of israel shall not do iniquity , not speak lies , neither shall a deceitfull tongue be found in their mouth . let your souls now apply these and the like promises , and cry , lord remember thy promise , and let not a jot of thy good word fall to the ground . secondly . as the promises of spirituall and eternall blessings , so the promises of peace and temporall deliverances , are not legall but even evangelicall : if we be not refined and purged as we ought to be , that is a matter of humiliation to us , but it is also a matter of magnifying the riches of free mercy , isa. 48.9 , 10 , 11. for my names sake will i deferre mine anger , and for my praise will ●refrain for thee . behold , i have refined thee , but not with silver , i have chosen thee in the fornance of affection , for mine own sake , yea for mine own sake will i do it . the lord is there arguing with his people , to humble them , to convince them , and to cut off all matter of glorying from them . and among other things , left they should glory in this , that what ever they were before , they became afterward as silver refined seven times in the fornace ; nay , saith the lord , i have refined you in some sort , but notas silver , not so as that you are clean from your drosse : but i have chosen you , and set my love upon you , even while you are in the fornace not yet refined : and i will deliver you even for my own names sake , that you may owe your deliverance for ever to free mercy , and not to your own repentance and amendment . a land is accepted , and a peoples peace made with god , not by their repentance and humiliation , but by christ beleeved on , micah 5 : 5. this man shall be the peace when the assyrian shall come into our land . there were sin-offerings , and burnt-offerings appointed in the law for a nationall atonement , levit. 4.13.21 . num. 15.25 , 26. which did typifie pardoning of nationall sins through the merit of jesus christ . we must improve the office of the mediator , and the promise of free grace , in the behalf of gods people , as well as of our own souls , which ( if it be indeed done ) will not hinder , but further a great mourning , and deep humiliation in the land . and so much of tribulation . the third thing held forth in this text ( of which i must be very short ) is mortification : this also is a refining fire , matth. 3.11 . he shall baptize you with the holy ghost and with fire , mark 9.49 . for every one shall be salted with fire ; and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt . he hath been before speaking of mortification , of the placking out of the right eye , the cuting off the right hand , or the right foot , and now he presseth the same thing by a double allusion to the law , there was a necessity both of fire and salt , the sacrifice was seasoned with salt , and the fire upon the altar was not to be put out , but every morning the wood was burnt upon it , and the burnt offering laid upon it . so if we will present our selves as a holy and acceptable sacrifice to god , we must be seasoned with the salt , and our corruptions burnt up with the fire of mortification . the doctrine shall be this : it is not enough to joyn in publick reformation , yea to suffer tribulation for the name of christ , except we also endeavour mortification . this mortification is a third step distinct from the former two ; and without this , the other two can make us but almost christians , or , not far from the kingdom of god in the parable of the sower and the seed , as we find it both in matthew , mark , and luke , this method may be observed , that of the four sorts of ground , the second is better then the first , the third better then the second ; but the fourth onely is the good ground , which is fruitfull , and getteth a blessing . some mens hearts are like the high way , and the hard beaten road , where every soul spirit , and every lust hath walked and converted , their consciences through the custome of sin , are as it were seared with a hot iron : in these the word takes no place , but all that they hear doth presently slip from them . others receive the word with a present good affection and delight , but have no depth of earth , that is , neither having had a work of the law upon their consciences for deep humiliation , nor being rooted and grounded in love to the gospel , nor paradventure so much as grounded in the knowledge of the truth , nor having counted their cost , and solidly resolved for sufferings ; thereupon it comes to passe , when suffering times come , these wither away , and come to nothing . thing . there is a third sort , who go a step further , they have some root , and some more solid ground then the former , so that they can suffer many things , and not fall away because of persecution , yet they perish through want of mortification . one may suffer persecution for christ , not being sore tried in that which is his idol lust , yet enduring great losses and crosses in other things . of such it is said , that the cares of this world , and the deceitfulnesse of riches , and the lusts of other things entering in , choke the word , and it becometh unfruitfull . mark that , the lusts of other things , that is , whether it be the lust of the eyes , or the lust of the flesh , or the pride of life ; and he speaks of the entring in , meaning of some strong tentation coming upon a man to catch him in that which is the great idol of his heart , and his beloved lust , what ever it be , such a tentation he never found before , and therefore thought the lust had been mortified , which was but lurking . did not judas suffer many things with christ , during the time of his publike ministery ? did not ananias and saphira suffer for a season , with the apostles and church at jerusalem ? what was it then that lost them ? they neither made defection from the profession of the truth , nor did they fall away because of persecution : but having shined in the light a sound profession , having also taken up the crosse , and born the reproach of christ , they make shipwrack at last upon an unmortified lust . i shall enlarge the doctrine nofurther , but touch upon some few uses , and so an end . first , let all and every one ofus be convinced of the necessity of our further endeavouring after mortfication . the best silver which cometh out of the earth , hath drosse in it , and therefore needeth the refiners fire ; and the whitest garment that is worn , will touch some unclean thing or other , and therefore will need the fullers sope . the best of gods children have the drosse of their inherent corruptions to purge away , which made paul say , i keep under my body , and bring it into subiection ; lest that by any means when i have preached to others , i my self should be a castaway . it is a spee●h borrowed from reprobate silver which is not refined from drosse , and so is the word used by the septuagints , isa. 1.22 . thy silver is become drosse . the apostle therefore sets himself to the study of mortification , lest , saith he , when i have been refining and purifying others , i my self be found to be drossie silver . and as there is inherent drosse , so there is adherent uncleannesse in the best , and who can say , that he hath kept his garments so clean that he is unspotted of the world , or that he hath so separate himself from the pollutions of the world , as that he hath touched no unclean thing . so that there is an universall necessity of making use both of the refiners fire , and of the fullers sope . secondly , let us once become willing and contented , yea desirous to be throughly mortified . a mans lus●s and corruptions are indeed so strongly interested in him , that sin is himself , and his corruptions are his members , therfore when we leave off sin , we are said to live no more to our selves . and morification is the greatest violence that can be done to nature , therefore it is called a cutting off of the chief members of the body , mark 9.43.45.47 . a salting with salt , and a burning with fire , ver. 49. a ciccumcision , col. 2.11 . a crucifying , rom. 6.6 . so that nothing can be more difficult or displeasing ; yea , a greater torment to flesh and blood . yet now art thou willing , notwithstanding of all this , to take christ on his own terms , to take him not only for rightousnesse and life , but to take him as a refiners fire , & as fullers sope ? o that there were such a heart in thee . when christ bids thee pluck out thy right eye , and cut off thy right hand , say not in thy heart , how shall i do without my right eye , and my right hand . nay thou shalt do well enough , thou shalt even enter into life without them , thou shalt be a gainer , and no looser . say not thou , how shall i go through this refining fire : fear not , thou shalt lose nothing but thy drosse . thus get thy heart wrought to a willingnesse , and a condesending , in the point of mortification . lastly , if you say , but after all this , how shall i attain unto it ? put thy self in the hands of iesus christ , trust him with the work , if you mark the text here ; and the verse that followeth , christ is both the refiner , and the refiners fire : thou shalt be refined by him , and thou shalt be refined in him . thou deceivest thy self if thou thinkest to be refined any other way but by this refiner , and in this refiners fire . the blood of christ doth ! not onely wash us from guilt , but purge our consciences from dead works to serve the living god , heb. 9.10 . and they that are christs , have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts , gal. 5.24 . here you may see the thing is feceable and attainable , and not onely by an apostle or some extraordinary man , but by all that are christs . being his and in him , they are inabled through his strength to crucifie the flesh with the affections and lusts thereof . finis . a brotherly examination of some passages of mr. colemans late sermon upon job 11.20 . as it is now printed and published : by which he hath to the great offence of very many , endeavoured to strike at the very root of all spiritual and ecclesiasticall government , contrary to the word of god , the solemn league and covenant , other reformed churches , and the votes of the honourable houses of parliament , after advice had with the reverend and learned assembly of divines . i have before touched this purpose in the third branch of the third application of my second doctrine : and did in my sermon in the abbey church , expresse my thoughts of it at some length . but as i was then unwilling to fall upon such a controversie so publickly , & especially in a fast sermon , if that which i intend to examine had not been as publikly and upon the like occasion delivered : so now in the publishing , i have thought good to open my mind , concerning this thing distinctly , and by itselfe . that which had been too late to be preached after sermon , is not too late to be printed after sermon . others ( upon occasion offred ) have given their testimony against his doctrine ; and i should think my self unfaithful in the trust put upon me , if upon such an occasion i should be silent in this businesse : and i beleeve no man will think it strange , that a peece of this nature and strain get an answer : and i go about it , without any disrespect either to the person or parts of my reverend brother . onely i must give a testimony to the truth when i hear it spoken agai●st , and i hope his objections have made no such impression in any mans mind , as to make him unwilling to hear an answer . come we therefore to the particulars . foure rules were offered by the reverend brother , as tending to unity , and to the healing of the present controversies about church-government . but in truth his cure is worse than the disease : and instead of making any agreement , he is like to have his hand against every man , and every mans hand against him . the first rule was this . est●blish as few things jure divino as can well be . which is by interpretation , as little fine gold , and as much drosse as can well be . the words of the lord are pure words , as silver tried in a furnace of earth , purified seven times . what you take from the word of god is fine gold tried in the fire . but an holy thing of mans devising is the drosse of silver . can he not be content to have the drosse purged from the silver , except the silver it self be cast away ? the very contrary rule is more sure and safe , which i prove thus . if it be a sin to diminish or take ought from the word of god , in so much that it is forbiden under pain of taking away a mans part out of the book of life and out of the holy city : then as many things as are to be established jure divino , as can well be . but it is a sin to diminish or take ought from the word of god , in so much that it is forbiden under pain of taking away a mans part out of the book of life , and out of the holy city . therefore as many things are to be established jure divino , as can well be . it must be remembred withall . 1. that the question is not now whether this or that form of church-government be jure divino ? but whether a church-government be jure divino ? whether jesus christ have thus far revealed his will in his word , that there are to be church-censures , and those to be dispenced by church-officers ? the brother is for the negative of this question . 2 neither is it stood upon by any ( so far as i know ) that what the parliament shall establish concerning church-government , must be established by them jure divino . if the parliament shall in a parliamentary and legislative way establish that thing which really and in it self is agreeable to the word of god , though they do not declare it to be the will of jesus christ , i am satisfied , and i am confident so are others . this i confesse , that it is incumbent to parliament-men , to ministers , and to all other christians , according to their vocation and interest , to search the scriptures , and thereby to info●● their own and other mens consciences , so as they may do in faith what they do in point of church-government , that is , that they may know they are not sinning , but doing the will of god : and it ought to be no prejudice nor exception against a form of church-government that many learned and godly divines do assert it from scripture , to be the will of god . and why should jus divinum be such a noli me tangere ? the reason was given : this was the onely thing that kindered union in the assembly , ( saith he ) two parties came biased , the reverend commissioners from scotland , were for the jus divinum of the presbyteriall ; the independents for the congregationall government . how should either move ? where should they both meet ? if it was thus , how shall he make himself blamelesse , who made union in the assembly , yet more difficult , because he came byased a third way , with the erastian tenents ? and where he asketh , where the independents and we should meet ? i answer , in holding a church-government jure divino , that is , that the pastors and elders ought to suspend or excommunicate ( according to the degree ofthe of the offence ) scandalous sinners . who can tell , but the purging of the church from scandals , and the keeping of the ordinances pure ( when it shall be actually seen to be the great thing endeavoured on both sides ) may make union between us and the independents more easie than many imagine . as for his exception against us , who are commissioners from the church of scotland , i thank god it s but such , yea not so much as the arminians did object against the forrai●ne divines who came to the synod of dorti . they complained that those divines were pre-ingaged and byased in regard of the judgement of those churches from which they came : and that therefore they did not help but hinder union in that assembly . and might not the arrians have thus excepted against alexander , who was ingaged against them before he came to the councell of nice ? might not the n●storians have made the same exception against cyrill , because he was under an engagement against them , before he came to the councell of ephesus ? nay , had not the jewish . zealots , the very same objection to make against paul and barnabas , who were ingaged ( not in the behalf of one nation , but of all the churches of the gentiles ) against the imposition of the mosaicall rites , and had so declared themselves at antioch , before they came to the synod at jerusalem ? act. 15.2 . it 's not fault to be engaged for the truth , but against the truth : it 's not blame-worthy , but praise-worthy to hold fast so much as we have already attain'd unto . nothwithstanding we , for our part , have also from the beginning professed , that we are most willing to hear and learn from the word of god , what needeth futher to be reformed in the church of scotland ? the second rule which was offered in that sermon , was this ; let all precepts , held out as divine institutions , have clear scriptures , &c. let the scripture speak expressely , ( saith he . ) i answer ; the scripture speaks in that manner , which seemed fittest to the wisdom of god , that is , so as it must cost us much searching of the sripture , as men search for a hid treasure , before we find out what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of god concerning the government of his church . will any divine in the world deny that it is a divine truth , which by necessarie consequence is drawn from scripture , as well as that which in expresse words and syllables is written in scripture ? are not divers articles of our profession , for instance the baptisme of infants necessarily and certainly proved from scripture , although it make no expresse mention thereof in words and syllables ? but let us hear what he hath said concerning some scriptures ( for he names but two of them ) upon which the acts of spirituall or ecclesiasticall government have been grounded . that place , 1 cor. 5. takes not hold ( saith he ) on my conscience for excommunication , and i admire that mat. 18. so should upon any . it 's strange that he should superciliously passe them over without respect to so great a cloud of witnesses in all the reformed churches , or without so much as offering any answer at all to the arguments which so many learned and godly divines of old and of late have drawn from these places for excommunication ; which if he had done , he should not want a reply . in the meantime , he intermixeth a politick consideration into this debate of divine right . i could never yet see ( saith he ) how two co-ordinate governments exempt from superiority and inferioritie , can be in one state . i suppose he hath seen the co-ordinate governments of a generall , and of an admirall ; or if we shall come lower , the governments of parents over their children , and masters over their servants , though it fall often out , that he who is subject to one man as his master , is subject to another man as his father . in one ship there may be two co-ordinate governments , the captain governing the souldiers , the master governing the mariners . in these and such like cases , you have two co-ordinate governments , when the one governor is not subordinate to the other . there is more subordination in the ministers and other church-officers toward the civil magistrate . for the ministers of christ must be in subjection to the magistrate ; & if he be not , he is punishable by the law of the land as well as any other subject . the persons and estates of church-officers and all that they have in this world is subject to civill authoritie . but that which is chri●s and not ours , the royall prerogative of the king of saints , in governing of his church , according to his own will , is not subject to the pleasure of any man living . but the reverend brother might well have spared this . it isnot the independency of the church-government upon the civil government , which he intended to speak against . it is the very thing it self , a church-government , as is manifest by his other two rules . i come therefore to his next , which is the third rule , lay no more ●urthen of government upon the shoulders of ministers , then christ hath plainly laid upon them . he means none at all , as is manifest not onely by his fourth rule , where he saith , that he finds no institution of other governments beside magistracy , but also by the next words , the ministers have other work to do , saith he , and such as will take up the whole man : he might have added this one word more , that without the power of church-government , when ministers have done all that ever they can , they shall not keep themselves nor the ordinances from pollution . before i proceed any further , let it be remembred when he excludes ministers from government : first , it is from spirituall or ecclesiasticall government , for the question is not of civill government . secondly , he excludes ruling elders too , and therefore ought to have mentioned them with the ministers , as those who are to draw the same yoke together , rather then to tell us of an innate enmity between the clergie and the laity . the keeping up of the names of the clergy and laity savoureth more of a domineering power , then any thing the brother can charge upon presbyteries . it is a point of controversie between bellarmine and those that writ against him , he holding up , and they crying down those names , because the christian people are the {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} the heritage of the lord , as well as the ministers . thus much by the way of that distinction of names . and for the thing it self , to object an innate enmity between the ministers of the gospel and those that are not ministers , is no lesse then a dishonouring and aspersing of the christian religion . to return , you see his words tend to the taking away of all church-government out of the hands of church-officers . now may we know his reasons ? he fetcheth the ground of an argument out of his own heart ; i have a heart ( faith he ) that knews better how to be governed , then govern . i wish his words might hold true in a sence of plyablenesse and yeelding to government . how he knows to govern i know not ; but it should seem in this particular he knows not how to be governed : for after both houses of parliament have concluded , that many particular congregations shall be under one presbyteriall government ; he still acknowledgeth no such thing as presbyteriall government . i dare be bold to say , he is the first divine in all the christian world that ever advised a state to give no government to church-officers , after the state had resolved to establish presbyterian government . but let us take the strength of his argument as he pretendeth it . he means not of an humble p●iablenesse and subjection ( for that should ease him from his fear of an ambitious ensnarement , and so were contrary to his intention ) but of a sinfull infirmity and ambition in the heart , which makes it fitter for him and others to be kept under the yoke , then to govern . and thus his argumentation runs , might i measure others by my self , and i know not why i may not ( god fashions mens hearts alike ; and as in water face answers face , so the heart of man to man ) i ingeniously professe , i have a heart that knows better how to be governed , then govern : i fear an ambitious ensnarement , and i have cause ; i see what raised prelacy and papacy to such a height , &c. the two scriptures will not prove what he would . the first of them , psal. 33.15 . he fashioneth their hearts alike , gives him no ground at all , except it be the homonomy of the english word alike , which in this place noteth nothing else but {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , all mens hearts are alike in this , that god fashioneth them all , and therefore knoweth them all aeque or alike ( that is the scope of the place . ) the hebrew jachad is used in the same sence , ezra 4.3 . we our selves together will build ; they mean not they will all build in the like fashion , or in the same manner , but that they will build all of them together , one as well as another . so psal. 2.2 . the rulers take counsell together , jer. 46.12 , they are fallen both together . the other place , prov. 27.19 . if you take it word by word as it is in the hebrew is thus , as in water faces to faces , so the heart of man to man . our translators adde the word answereth , but the hebrew will suffer the negative reading , as in waters faces answer not to faces . the septuagints read , as faces are not like faces , so neither are the hearts of men alike . the chaldee paraphrase thus , as waters and as countenances which are not like one another , so the heart of the sons of men are not alike . thus doth master cartwright in his judicious commentary give the sense , as in the water face doth not answer fully to face , but in some sort , so there may be a conjecture , but no certain knowledge of the heart of man . but let the text be read affirmatively , not negatively , what shall be the sence ? some take it thus , a mans heart may be someway seen in his countenance , as a face in the water . others thus , as a face in the water is various and changeable to him that looketh upon it , so is the heart of man inconstant to a friend that trusteth in him . others thus , as a man seeth his own face in the water , so he may see himself in his own heart or conscience . others thus , as face answereth face in the water , so he that looketh for a friendly affection from others , must shew it in himself . it will never be proved that any suchthing is intended in that place , as may warrant this argumentation : there is such a particular corruption in one mans heart , for instance , ambition , which makes him unfit to be trusted with government ; therefore the same corruption is in all other mens hearts : even as the face in the water answereth the face out of the water so just , that there is not a spot or blemish in the one but it is in the other . i am sure pan ! taught us not so , when he said , in lowlinesse of minde let each esteeme other better then themselves , phil. 2.3 . nay , the brother himself ha●h taken off the edge of his own argument ( if it had any ) in his epistle printed before his sermon , where speaking of his brethren , from whose judgement he dissenteth in point of government , he hath these words , whose wisdom and humility ( i speak it confidently ) may safely be trusted with as large a share of government as they themselves desire . well , but suppose now the same corruption to be in other mens hearts , that they are in great danger of an ambitious insnarement , if they be trusted with government . is this corruption onely in the hearts of ministers , or is it in the hearts of all other men ? i suppose he will say in all mens hearts ; and then his argument will conclude against all civill government . last of all , admit that there be just fears of abusing the power and government ecclesiasticall ; let the persons to be intrusted with it be examined , and the power it self bounded according to the strictest rules of christ . let abuses be prevented , reformed , corrected . the abuse cannot take away the use , where the thing it self is necessary . why might he not have satisfied himself without speaking against the thing it self . once indeed he seemeth to recool , and faith , onely i would have it so bounded , that it might be said , hitherto shalt thou come , and here shalt thou stay thy proud waves ; yet by and by he passeth his own bounds , and totally renounceth the government to the civill power , which i shall speak to anon . but i must first ask , whence is this fear of the proud swelling waves of presbyteriall government ? where have they done hurt ? was it upon the coast of france , or upon the coast of holland , or upon the coast of scotland ? or where was it ? or was the dashing upon terra in cognita ? he that would forewarn men to beware of presbyteriall usurpations , ( for so the brother speaking to the present controversie about church-government must be apprehended ) and to make good what he ●aith , fals upon the stories of pope paul the 5. and of the bishop of canterbury , is not a little wide from the mark . i should have expected some examples of evils and mischiefs which presbyteriall government hath brought upon other reformed churches . well , the reverend brother hath not done , but he proceedeth thus ; i●n as the king of sodomes speech to abraham , give me the persons , ta●eth ● the goods ; so say i , give us doctrine , take you the government as 〈◊〉 said : right honourab . c , give me leave to make this request in the behalf of the ministery , give us two things and we shall do well ; 1 give us earning ; and 2 give us a competency . this cals to ●inde a story which clemens alexandrinus tells us ; when one had painted helena with much gold , apelles looking upon it , friend , ( saith he ) when you could not make her fair , you have made her rich ; learning and competency do inrich : the jesuites have enough of both , but that which maketh a visible ministeriall church to be beautifull as tirzah , comely as jerusalem : that which maketh fair the outward face of a church , is government and discipline , the removing of scandals , the preserving of the ordinances from pollution . he had spoken more for the honour of god , and for the power of godlinesse , if he had said this in the behalf of the ministery , it were better for us to want competency and helps to learning , then to partake with other mens sins , by admitting the scandalous and prophane to the lords table ; his way which he adviseth , will perhaps get ●s an able ministery , and procure us honour enough , as he speaketh , but ( sure ) it can neither preserve the purity , nor advance the power of religion , because it putteth no black mark upon prophanesse and scandall in church members , more then in any others : the king of sodoms speech cannot serve his turn , except it be turned over , and then it will serve him as just as any thing , thus , give us the goods , take you the persons , ( or the souls , as the he●rew and the chaldee hath it ) give us a competency , saith he , here he asketh the goods , take you the government , here he quitteth the persons or souls to be governed onely by the civill power ; however , as at that time abraham would take nothing that was not his own , insomuch as he answered the king of sodome , i will not take from a thred , even to a shoe latchet , and i will not take any thing that is thine : so this parliament , i trust , shall be so counselled and guided of the lord , that they will leave to the church , what is the churches , or rather to christ what is christs : and as a●raham had lift up his hand to the most high god , to doe that ; so have the honourable houses , with hands lifted up to the most high god , promised to do this . and now seeing i have touched upon the covenant , i wish the reverend brother may seriously consider , whether he hath not violated the oath of god , in advising the parliament to lay no burden of government upon church officers , but to take the government of the church wholly into their own hands . in the first article of the solemn league and covenant , there is thrice mention made of the government of the church ; and namely , that we shall indeavour the reformation of religion in the kingdoms of england and ireland , in doctrine , worship , discipline , and government , according to the word of god , and the example of the best reformed churches . where observe , 1. the extirpation of church-government is not the reformation of it . the second article is indeed of things to be extirpated ; but this of things to be preserved and reformed . therfore , as by the covenant prelacy was not to be reformed , but to be abolished : so by the same covenant church government was not to be abolished , but to be reformed . 2. church-government is mentioned in the covenant as a spirituall , not a civill thing . the matters of religion are put together ; doctrine , worship , discipline , and government : the priviledges of parliament come after , in the third article . 3. that clause , according to the word of god , implieth , that the word of god holdeth forth such light unto us , as may guide and direct us in the reformation of church-government . 4. and will the brother say , that the example of the best reformed churches leadeth us his way , that is , to have no church-government at all distinct from the civil government ? and so much concerning his third rule . the fourth was this : a christian magistrate , as a christian magistrate , is a governor in the church . and who denieth this ? the question is , whether there ought to be no other government in the church , beside that of the christian magistrate . that which he driveth at , is , that the christian magistrate should leave no power of spirituall censures to the elderships . he would have the magistrate to do like the rich man in the parable , who had exceeding many flocks and herds , and yet did take away the little ewe-lamb from the poor man , who had nothing save that . the brother saith , of other governments besides magistracie , i finde no institution ; of them i d● , rom. 13.1 , 2. i am sor●y he sought no better , else he had found more . subjection and obedience is commanded , as due , not onely to civil , but to spirituall governors , to those that are over us in the lord , 1 thes. 5.12 . so 1 tim. 5.17 . let the elders that ru●e well , be counted worthy of double honour . heb. 13.7 . remember them which have the rule over you , who have spoken to you the word of god . vers. 17. obey them that have the rule over you , and submit your selves ; for they watch for your souls . and what understandeth he by him that ruleth , r●m . 12.8 ? if the judgement of gua●ther and bullinger have any weight with him ( as i suppose it hath ) they do not there exclude , but take in , under that word , the ruling officers of the church . but now in the close , let the reverend brother take heed he hath not split upon a rock , and taken from the magistrate more then he hath given him . he saith , christian magistrates are to manage their office under christ , and for christ . christ hath placed governments in his church , 1 cor. 12.28 , &c. i finde all government given to christ , and to christ as mediator ( i desire all to consider it ) eph. 1.3 . last vers. and christ as head of these given to the church . if this be good divinity , then i am sure it will be the hardest task which ever he took in hand , to uphold and assert the authority either of pagan or christian magistrates . first , he lets the pagan or infidel magistrate fall to the ground , as an usurper who hath no just title to reign , because all government is given to christ and to him as mediator : but which way was the authority of government derived from christ , and from him as mediator , to a pagan prince or emperour ? next , he will make it to fare little better with the christian magistrate : for if the christian magistrate be the vice-gerent of christ , and of christ as mediator ; and if he be to manage his office under and for christ ; then the reverend brother must either prove from scripture , that christ , as mediator , hath given such a commission of vice-gerent-ship and deputy-ship to the christian magistrate ; or otherwise acknowledge that he hath given a most dangerous wound to magistracie , and made it an empty title , claiming that power which it hath no warrant to assume . god and nature hath made magistrates , and given them great authority : but from christ as mediator they have it not . i finde in scripture , that church-officers have their power from christ as mediator , and they are to manage their office under and for christ , and in the name of the lord jesus christ do we assemble our selves together , matth. 18. 20. in his name do we preach , luke 24.47 . acts 4.17 , 18. and 5.28.44 . and 9.27 . in his name do we baptize , act. 2.38 . and 4.12 , 16. and 19.5 . in his name do we excommunicate , 1 cor. 5.5 . but i do not find in scripture that the magistrate is to rule , or to make laws , or to manage any part of his office in the name of the lord jesus christ . and as the mediator hath not anywhere given such a commission and power to the magistrate : so , as mediator , he had it not to give : for he was not made a judge in civil affairs , luke 12.14 and his kingdom is not of this world , job . 18.36 . how can that power which christ as mediator hath not received of the father , be derived from christ to the christian magistrate ? i know that christ , as he is the eternall son of god , and thought it no robbery to be equall with god , doth with the father and the holy ghost reign and rule over all the kingdoms of the sons of men . he that is mediator , being god , hath , as god , all power in heaven and earth , ( and this power was given to him , matth. 28.18 . both by the eternall generation , and by the declaration of him to be the son of god with power , when he was raised from the dead , rom. 1.4 . even as he said to be begotten , when he was raised again , act. 13.33 . he had relinquished and laid aside his divine dominion and power , when he had made himself in the form of a servant ; but after his resurrection it 's gloriously manifested . ) and so he that is mediator , being god , hath power to subdue his and his churches enemies , and to make his foes his footstool . but as mediator he is onely the churches king , head and governor , and hath no , other kingdom . the phatinians have defined the kingly office of christ thus . it is an office committed to him by god , to govern with the highest authority and power all creatures endued with understanding , and especially men , and the church gathered of them . but those that have written against them have corrected their definition in this particular , because christ is properly king of his church onely . as for those two scriptures which the brother citeth , they are extremely misapplied . he citeth . 1 cor. 12.28 , to prove that christ hath placed civil governments in his church . if by the governments or governors there mentioned , be understood the civil magistrates ; yet that place saith not that christ hath placed them , but that god hath done it . next , the apostle speaks of such governors as the church had at that time ; but at that time the church had no godly nor christian magistrates . this is calvins argument , whereby he proves that ecclesiasticall , not civil governors , are there meant . thirdly , i ask , how can we conceive that civil government can come into the catalogue of ecclesiastical and spiritual administrations ? for such are all the rest there reckoned forth . lastly , the brother , after second thoughts , may think he hath done another disservice to the magistrate , in making the magistracy to be below and behinde the ministery . the apostle puts them in this order : god hath set some in the church , first apostles , secondly prophets , thirdly teachers , after that miracles , then gifts of healings , helps , governments , &c. how makes the brother this to agree with his interpretation ? next , he citeth eph. 1.21 , 22 , 33. to prove that all government is given to christ , and to him as mediator ; and christ , as head of these , given to the church . but this place maketh more against him then for him : for the apostle saith not that christ is given to the church as the head of all principalities and powers . the brother saith so ; and in saying so , he makes christ a head to those that are not of his body . the apostle saith far otherwise , that god gave christ to be the head over all things to the church , which is his body ; which the syriack readeth more plainly , and him who is over all , he gave to be the head to the church . he is a head to none but the church : but he who is head to the church is over all , god l●●sed forever , rom. 9.5 . yea , even as man , he is over or above all . the very humane nature of christ which was raised from the dead , being set at the right hand of the majesty of god , is exalted to a higher degree of honour and glory , then either man or angel ever was , or ever shall be : so that he that is head of the church , is over all , because he doth not onely excell his own members , but excell all creatures that ever god made . it is one thing to say that christ is exalted to a dignity , excellency , preeminence , majesty , and glory , far above all principality , and power , and might , and dominion : another thing to say that christ is head of all principalities and governments , and as mediator excerciseth his kingly office over these . the apostle saith the former , but not the latter . shall i need to illustrate this distinction ? is there any thing more known in the world ? will any say , that he who excels other men in dignity , splendor , honour , and glory , must therefore reign and rule over all those whom he thus excels ? the apostle saith indeed , in another sense , that christ is the head of all principality and power , col. 2.10 . but that is spoken of christ not as he is mediator , but onely as he is god : and the apostles meaning in those words is nothing but this ; that christ is true god , saith tosanus ; that he is omnipotent , saith gualther ; that he , being the naturall son of god , is together with the father lord of all things , saith bullinger . that this is the meaning , will soon appear : 1. from the scope of the place , which is to teach the colossians not to worship angels , because they are but servants , and the son of god is their lord and head . 2. the apostle expounds himself , how christ is the head of all principality and power , col. 1.15 , 16 , 17. who is the image of the invisible god , the first-born of every creature : for by him were all things created that are in heaven , and that are in the earth , visible and invisible , whether they be thrones , ord●minions , or principalities or powers : all things were created by him , and for him ; and he is before all things , and by him all things consist . now all this is without controversie , to be understood , not of the office , but of the person of jesus christ ; not of his governing and kingly office , as he is midiator , but to prove that he is true and very god . therefore beza , zanchius , gualther , bullinger , t●ssanus , m. bayne , and divers other interpreters upon the place , do generally agree , that the apostle , vers. 15.16 , 17 , speaks of the dignity and excellency of the person of jesus christ , proving him to be true god ; and that vers. 17. he cometh to speak of his office , as he is mediator : and be is the head of the body , the church , &c. so that we may distinguish a twofold headship of jesus christ . one , in regard of his godhead ; and so he is head of all principality and power : another in regard of his office of mediatorship ; and so he is head of the church onely . the present question is of the later , not of the former . the former is common to the son of god , with the father and the holy ghost : the latter is proper to christ god and man . the former shall continue for ever : the latter shall not continue for ever . the former doth not necessarily suppose the latter ; but the latter doth necessarily suppose the former . christ can reign as god , though he reign not as mediator ; but he cannot reign as mediator , and not reign as god . the object of the former is every creature : the object of the latter is the church gathered out of the world . this digression concerning the headship of jesus christ , may for the future prevent divers objections . so i shall return . and now ( i desire all to consider it ) there is not one word in those three last verses of eph. 1. which will give any ground for that which the brother with so much confidence averreth . vers. 21. affordeth this argument against him . the honour and dignity of jesus christ there spoken of , hath place not onely in this world , but in that which is to come . but the kingdom and government which is given to christ as mediator , shall not continue in the world to come ( for when christ hath put his enemies under his feet , he shal deliver up the kingdom to the father , and reign no longer as mediator , 1 cor. 15.24 , 25. ) therefore the government given to christ , as he is mediator , cannot be meant in that place , but the dignifying , honouring , preferring and exalting of christ , to a higher degree of glory then either man or angel . come on now , and see whether vers. 22. maketh any whit more for him ; he hath put all things under his feet ; that is , saith zanchius , all things but the church , which is his body . but this must be meant in respect of the decree and foreknowledge of god , as hierome expounds the place ; and so doth the scripture expound it self , heb. 2.8 . but now we see not yet all things put under him . 1.15.25 . he must reign till he hath put all his enemies under his feet . acts 2.34 , 35 sit thou on my right hand till i make thy foes thy footstool . now when christ shall have put down all rule , and all authority and power , and shall put his enemies under his feet ; then he shall cease to reign any more as mediator ( which i have even now proved : ) but before that be done , he reigns as mediator . so that it can never be proved , that the meaning of these words , he hath put all things under his feet , is , that all government in this world is given to christ as mediator : and whoever saith so , must needs acknowledge , that christs exercising of government ( as he is mediator ) over all principalities and powers , shall continue after all things shall be put under his feet ; or that christ shall not govern as mediator , till all things be put under his feet ; which is so contrary to the apostles meaning , that christ shall then cease to reign as mediator . the next words , and he gave him to be the head over all things to the church , do furnish another argument against him . christs headship and his government as mediator , are commensurable , and of an equall extent . christ is a head to none but to his church : therfore no government is given to him as mediator , but the government of his church . the last verse doth further confirm that which i say : for the apostle continuing his speech of the church , saith , which is his body , the fulnesse of him that f●lleth all in all . he cals the church christ fulnesse , in reference to his headship , that which makes him full and compleat so far as he is a head or king : having his church fully gathered , he hath his compleat kingdom , his perfect body ; and this being done , he wants nothing , so far as he is mediator . so that the holy ghost doth here as it were on purpose anticipate this opinion , lest any should think all c●●●l government is given to christ as mediator . though , as god , he filleth heaven and earth ; yet , as mediator , his filling of all in all extends no further then his body , his church ▪ which is therefore called his fulnesse . finally , to avoid the mistake of this place , and upon the whole matter ; let these three things be well distinguished , in the mediator jesus christ . 1. his {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} or {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} his eminence and highnesse in respect of the glory and majesty he is exalted to , far above whatsoever is highest among all the creatures . 2. his {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} the power , by which he can , and doth by degrees , and will more and more subdue his and his churches enemies , and dash them in pieces like a potters vessel , and break them with a rod of iron . 3. his {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , his kingly power , by which he exerciseth acts of government . these three are distinguished in an earthly king , the first two being of a larger extent then the third . the conclusion of that prayer which our lord taught his disciples , doth distinguish the same three in god . thine is the kingdom , and the power , and the glory . now these being distinguished in the mediator jesus christ , i conclude with these three distinct assertions ( the truth whereof i hope i have made to appear . ) 1. as mediator , he is exalted and dignified above all creatures , and his glory is above all the earth . 2. as mediator , he exerciseth acts of divine power and omnipotency over all creatures , in the behalf of , and for the good of his church , and restraineth , or diverteth , or destroyeth all his churches enemies . 3. as mediator , he is king , head , and governour to none but his church : neither was all government put in his hand , but the government of the church onely . i could enlarge my self further against that most dangerous principle , that all government , even that which is civil , is given to christ , and to him as mediator . but let these things suffice for the present . the reverend brothers opinion will finde better entertainment among the jews , who expect a temporall monarchy of the messiah ; and among papists , who desire to uphold the popes temporall authority over kings , as christs vicegerent upon earth . die iovis 28. aug. 1645. it is this day ordered by the lords in parliament assembled , that mr gillespie who preached yesterday before their lordships in the ab'ey church westminster , it being the day of the publique fast , is hereby thanked for his great pains he took in the said sermon : and desired to print and publish the same , which is onely to be done by authority under his hand . jo. brown cleric . parliament . i appoint robert bostock to print this sermon . geo. gillespie . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a42767e-180 isa. 30.10 . psal. 2.3 . psal. 2.3 . ruth 1.20 . cor. 1.8 , 9 , 10 , 11. psal. 18.46 . exod. 15.2 . psal. 72 , 18 , 19 isa. 62.3 , 4. ezek. 16.63 . notes for div a42767e-510 act. 8.34 . the meaning of the text searched . matth. 21.10 , 11 , 12. mark 9.1 . isa. 59.20 . rom. 11 26. brought on revel 9. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ezek. 1 28 , isa. 6.5 . iosh. 5.13 , 14. 1 sam. 16.4 , 5. in ier. 2.2 . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ier. 6.30 . deut. 32.5 rom. 9.4 . rom. 11.24 . doctrine 1. proved first from the text iosh. 24.16 . iosh 6.19 . 2. from other scriptures . ioh 6.60 . mar 10.21.22 mat. 19.24 , 25. matth 8.34 . mark 3.21 . luk. 14.28 . ioh. v. 26 , 2 , 33. matth. 16 , 24. iames 44. 1 cor. 3.18 . 3. from the excellency of christ . 1 sam. 24.24 . gen. 35.4 . 4. from the nature of the covenant . the use . 1 king. 1.6 . eccles. 2.10 . ier. 2.23 , 24. luk. 16. ●5 . an objection answered four wayes . 2 doctrine . cleared in four branches thereof . gualt. hom 8. in malach. vult enim docere propheta , venturum quidem christum , sed reformatorem fore , & accrrimum divini cultum vindicum . gualther on the place . martyr on the place . accessione temporis declarantur . experimur hodie retegicōplura quae á multis annis la●uer unt . gualther . orietur dies , id est , clarior lux veritatis , quae omnia protrabet . tossanus . mundus tandē agnoscet vanitatem traditionum humanarū chamier-panst. tom. 3. lib. 26. cap. 13 , 14. bullinger on the place . matth. 3.12 . act. 2.3 . ribera upon the place . first , application to the opposers of reformation . revel. 14.2 . gen. 3.11 . prov. 20.7 . num. 11 28 , 29. & 12.1 , 2. 2 chron. 16.10 2 sam. 19.29 . ionah 1.3 . mark 9.33 , 34 , 35. gal. 2.11 . col. 4.17 . revel. 2. & 3. 2. application to the parliament , in 4 , particulars . luk. 16.2 . 1 touching connivence a● or correspondence with malignants . 2 touching liberty of conscience . prov. 26 23. ier. 3.28 . iob 3.4 . ioh. 17 . 2● . 3 touching the restraint of scandalous persons from the sacrament psal. 119.119 . psal. 5.5 . grotius annot. in malac : 3. see mr. robinsons apology , cap. 12. faustus socinus wrote a book to prove that all those in the reformed churches of poland who desire ●o be truly godly , ought to separate themselves and oyn with the assemblies who ( faith h● ) are falsly called arrians and abioniles . one of his arguments is this , because in those reformed churches there is a great neglect of church discipline , whereby it cometh to passe that scandalous persons are admitted to the lords table the same argument is pressed against some lutheran churches by schlichringius disput pro socino contra ms sacrum . p● . 484 l●et 〈◊〉 dolendum sit ta●a promissed passimque fieri , & abiiss● in ●orem : pejus tamen adhue est quodmalis is● is , praeter concienes interdum aliquas , quibusdam in locis , nulla adh●beatur medcina , ne● rectores ecelesiarum haec cura tangat , ut vitia tam latè grassantia , discipliná & censurá ecclesiasticá , ab ipso christo & apostolis institutacoercean●ur . vnde sactum est ut non solum ista peccata , qu● lev● ora videntur , sed c●iam alia graviora , put a comessati ones , compotationes , ebrietrates , scorrationes , libidines , ira , in 〈◊〉 , nine , obtrectationes , caedes ac bella , di● uvio quodam ecclesiastico nundarins . 3 application to ministers . ioh. 5.35 . enar , in psal. 104. cum audis , ignis ●st minister dei , incensurum illam putas ? incendat licet sed foenn●● tuum , id est , car . nalia omnia tua desideria . act. 17. 6. ● c●ron . 29.34 . 3 doctrine ▪ brightman & alstod . in dan. 1● . ● . ● chron. 14.9 . and 20.1 . an●wer to mr. prynnes 12 questions . cajetan in exod. 34.24 . non obligabat ( praeceptum apparendi ●er in anno● ) usque ad ' di●tatos terminos terrae promissae , qu●do secura unive saregio sutura erat d riv. ● . comme●t in illum loc. tum quia deus ●jecturus ●rat hos●es ex corum terminus : tum quia di●atatus ernt fines populi sui , ut vicinosnon tam haberent hostes . quam subditos & tributarios . 2 vse . iob 10.1 , 2. eccl. ● . 10 . psal. 44.17 . 3 use . psal. 89.46 . ezech. 15.7 . 4 vse . ezek. 37. ●● . bulling gualt. & a. cularius on the place . levit. 2.13 . lev. 6.12 , 13. 4 doctrine . matth 13. mark 4. luk 8. mark 4.19 . i vse . 1 cor. 9.27 . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} isa 1.27 . 2 vse . 2 cor. 5.15 . 3 vse . notes for div a42767e-6530 psal 12.6 . rev. 3.18 . grotii apologet . cap. 5. extranci autem quorum maximus ●sse debu●rat usus in p●ce conciliandâ , ex partium alicrâ erant conqus●sit● . et infra ●osa mandata externis data damma ionum remonstrantium prae se serebant , ut & orationes habitae ante ●aulum cognitam . the arminians in their examen censurae cap. 25 p. 86. ●87 . hold this as a necessarie qualification of those that are admitted into synods , that they be not stricted to any church , nor to any confession of faith . in our first paper presented to the grand committee . bellarm. de cler. l. 3. c. 1. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} una simul from {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} u●ire . maldonat & mercerus . melanchton . jansenius diodati . d. jermin . paedag. lib. 2. cap. 12. gen. 14.23 . vers. 32. religion●s christianae b●evis institutio , ●nno , 1634. ca. 23. qud ●st regium munus ? ref. est munus ipsi à deo commissum omnes creaturas intelligentia praeditas , as imprimis homines & ex iis collectam , summa c●in auctoritate 〈◊〉 potestate gubernandi . iac. martini synops. relig. photin . cap. 23 〈◊〉 non negomus christo jam ad dextr●m dei sedenti subjecta esse omnia , inimicosque ipsi subjici● 〈◊〉 siab ellum pedum suorum , &c. praprie tamen d●citur rex suae ecc●esiae , uti etiam ecclesia , proprie joquendo ejus regnum est sic enim de ipso vat cinatus est zecharias , cap. 9. v 9. &c. vnde 〈◊〉 cum me●e●r ferro osstium christi regium defiaimus , quo christus ciues suos verbi 〈◊〉 vio usque ad mundi fiacra colligit , consque praeclaris donis ornat , contra hostes ( in quorum medio domitatur ) sortiter defendis , as ●and● aeterna gloria & honore coronat . fr. gomar . aral . prop. obad. vers ult. is autem jesus christus , in n.t. exhibitus rex . qui ut cum patre habet 〈◊〉 generale omnipotentiae : it a habet speciale , de quo bic agitur , mediationis . p. martyr . loccom class 2. cap. 17 p. 293. regnare interdum accipi quasi sit , excellere , eminere prae caeteris , & summum locum tenere . ac ista significatione christus perpetuo regnabit . sin vero dicamus regnare idom quod officia regis exercere , &c. christus non semper reguabit zanchius in eph. 1.271 . expounds the latter part of that verse of the eternity of christs kingd●me : but he addes , f●●crit regnand . hoc modo quo j●● ; egnat , tanquam mediator . the true form of church government first instituted by christ, novv used and practised in all the reformed churches of germanie, france, and scotland: humbly presented to the high and honourable court of parliament, at this time most happily assembled. plainly proved by scripture, rectifide reason, and the testimonie of the church, some hundreds of yeares after the apostles time, and the generall consent of the churches rightly reformed in these latter times, contrary to the romish, and our archiepiscopall government. udall, john, 1560?-1592. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a64633 of text r218880 in the english short title catalog (wing u16). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 189 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 40 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a64633 wing u16 estc r218880 99830434 99830434 34885 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a64633) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 34885) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 2022:25) the true form of church government first instituted by christ, novv used and practised in all the reformed churches of germanie, france, and scotland: humbly presented to the high and honourable court of parliament, at this time most happily assembled. plainly proved by scripture, rectifide reason, and the testimonie of the church, some hundreds of yeares after the apostles time, and the generall consent of the churches rightly reformed in these latter times, contrary to the romish, and our archiepiscopall government. udall, john, 1560?-1592. [12], 67, [1] p. [s.n.], printed at london : 1642. by john udall. with marginal notes. running title reads: the true government of the church instituted by christ. reproduction of the original at the harvard university library. eng church polity -early works to 1800. a64633 r218880 (wing u16). civilwar no the true form of church gouernment, first instituted by christ, novv used and practised in all the reformed churches of germanie, france, an udall, john 1642 35539 689 0 0 0 0 0 194 f the rate of 194 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the f category of texts with 100 or more defects per 10,000 words. 2004-06 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-07 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-08 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2004-08 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the true form of church government , first institvted by christ , now used and practised in all the reformed churches of germanie , france , and scotland : humbly presented to the high and honourable court of parliament , at this time most happily assembled . plainly proved by scripture , rectifide reason , and the testimonie of the church , some hundreds of yeares after the apostles time , and the generall consent of the churches rightly reformed in these latter times , contrary to the romish , and our archiepiscopall government . printed at london 1642. to the supposed governours of the church of england , the archbishops , lord bishops , arch-deacons , and the rest of that order . many , and most evident have our declarations beene concerning the truth of that government , which christ hath prescribed in his word for the ruling of the church ; which we have manifested unto you , both by our writings and speeches , as occasion hath beene offered : never hath any one of you taken in hand to say any thing against it , but it hath made his eyes to dazle , as the clearest sunne-shining ; whereby hee hath beene driven to wander hither and thither , groping for evasions , and yet could not escape , but hath fallen into infinite most monstrous absurdities , and blasphemous assertions , ( as by their writings yet extant it may appeare ) so forcible is the truth , to amaze the gaine-sayers thereof , and so pregnant is falshood to beget and bring forth thousands of absurdities , and every one worse then other . and will you still continue in your damnable ▪ and most devillish course ? have you sold your selves unto sathan , to fight for him untill you be damned in hell with him ? have you morgaged the salvation of your soules and bodies , for the present fruition of your pomp and pleasure ? is it because you see not what you should doe ? it may be so , for many are so blinde , that they grope even at noone day ; but mee thinks it can hardly be so , unlesse you be they that have eyes and see not , for the cause hath beene ( by the blessing of god ) so managed , that many ploughmen ▪ artificers , and children doe see it , and know it , and are able by the word of god to ju●tifie it , and condemne you to be adversaries unto the gospell in resisting it . but you think that government not so needfull , and your fault but small ( if it be any ) in continuing your course begun . the necessity of the thing is many wayes apparant , both in th●t it hath so plentifull warrant from gods owne word , ( as the course of this book doth evidently declare ▪ ) and also in that the gospell can take no root , nor have any free passage , for want of it : and the greatnesse of your fault appeareth ●y this , that in so doing , you are the cause , of all the ignoran●e , atheisme , schismes , treasons , poperie , and ungodlinesse , that is to be found in this land , which we challenge to prove to your faces , if wee may ind●fferently be heard , and whereof in the meane wh●le we will give you a taste : for the first it is cleare , that you are the cau●●r , of that damnable ignorance , wherein the people are so generally wrapped , for that you have from time to time stopped the streames of knowledge in th●se places where the lord in mercy bestowed the same , and in stead of able and painfull ministers , have pe●●ered the church , either with presumptuous proud persons , that are esteemed learned , and take no paines to bring the people unto the knowledge of iesus christ , or ( which is the greatest ●u●ber ) such ignorant asses , and filthy swine , as are not worthy to live in a well ordered common wealth : and that you are the c●us● of all atheisme , it is plaine , for one may ( as in deed many doe ) p●o●●sse it , and you say nothing to him for it . if the most filthy liver will ●awne up ●n you ▪ and bribe your servants , you will not onely favour him , but assist him against any godly mini●ter whatsoever : but if any that feare god , refuse to come under the least of your popish c●remonies , he shall be molested , till his purse be empty , or else ●y your tyrannous dealing , hee have made shipwrack of a good conscience . and are not you the cause of all schismes , that make a h●tch-pot of true religion and popery , and so give some an occasion to fall into this course , and others into that ? and it is as cleare , that you are so far●e the cau●e of all treasons , ●s without you they had not beene : for if every church had had her govern●ent according to christs i●stitution ; our young ge●tlemen , and stud●nts , had not beene ( f●r want of teaching and carefull oversight ) mad a prey unto the seducers ; and consequently to th●se pract●s●s ▪ which have brought the bodies of so many unto ty●orne , and their soules into hell ; and who ●ut you be the caus● of popery , whi●est you use them so wel , let them doe what the li●t yea ▪ and keepe them in office and authority under you , yea ( which m●re is ) give them such offices as none that 〈◊〉 popish can execute : i speake not of the ignorance which by ▪ 〈…〉 every wh●re , which ( as they confe●●e ) 〈…〉 their devot●●n , and you are the wretched father● of that 〈…〉 wh●r●by you mu●t needs ●e grandfathers 〈…〉 kind of popery . and who can ( without blushing ) denie 〈…〉 be the cause of all ungodlinesse , seeing your government is that which giveth leave to a man to be any thing , saving a sound christian . for certainly it is more free in these dayes , to be a papist , anabaptist of the family of love , yea any most wicked one whatsoever , then that which we should be ; and , i could live these twenty yeares , any one of these in england ( yea in a bishops house it may be ) and never be much molested for it ; so true is that which you are charged with , in a dialogue lately come forth against you , ( and since burned by you ) that you care for nothing but the maintenance of your dignities , be it to the damnation of your owne soules , and infinite millions more : enter therefore now at the last , into the serious consideration of these things : remember that one day , you must be presented before the tribunall seat of iesus christ , to be arraigned for all the soules that have gone to hell ( seeing you will needs be the rulers of the church ) since the gospe●l ●irst appeared in this land , then shall you not be excus●d with this . the queene and councell will have it so : nor with that ; our state cannot beare it . for it shall be sa●d unto you , why do you not informe them better of my will ; why taught you them not to worship with trembling and feare , and to kisse the son lest he 〈◊〉 angry ; why did you not tell them , that all states must be rul●d 〈◊〉 my word , and not my word by them and their polic●e● . whe● these things shall be laid to your charge , your con●ci●nces sh●ll ●n●wer ; that if you had done so , you should have lo●t your dig●i●ies , which you loved and sought for especially : then shall you wish , that the mountaines would fall upon you ▪ and the h●l●s cover you ●rom the pre●ence of the lam● , and from the presence of h●m that 〈◊〉 upon the throne . and i am perswaded ▪ that you are 〈◊〉 league with hell and have made a c●venant with death ; yea , y●u doe pe●swade yourselves that there is no go● , neither sh●ll 〈◊〉 be any such day of ●●count ; or it were 〈◊〉 , that you 〈◊〉 give you 〈…〉 disputations by , and then shal it easily appeare , who hath the lord on his side , and who not . the truth will prevaile in spite of your teeth , and all other adversaries unto it , ( for god disdaineth to be crossed , by dust and ashes . ) therefore be not obstinate so long , as untill you be found fighters with god ; but prevent his wrath , lest it break forth against you like fire that none can quench , because of the wickednesse of your inventions . venture your bishopricks upon a disputation , and wee will venture our lives , take the challenge if you dare : if the truth be on your side , you may hereby , be restored to your dignities , and be no more troubled by us : but if the truth be against you , what shall it profit you to win the whole world ▪ and afterward lose your owne soules . if you refuse still our offer , then must you needs be guilty either of this , that you know your cause will not abide the triall , or of this , that you will take no paines to confute us that keepe such a stirre in the church . doe not think that because you have humane authority on your side , therefore you are safe ; for hee , whose authority is on our side , is the greatest , to whose voice all the devils in hell shall stoope ; much more the silly arme of sinfull flesh . wee have sought to advance this cause of god , by humble suit to the parliament , by supplication to your convocation house , by writing in defence of it , and by challenging to dispute for it ; seeing none of these meanes used by us have prevailed . if it come in by that meanes , which will make all your hearts to ake , blame your selves ; for it must prevaile , maugre the malice of all that stand against it , or such a iudgement must overtake this land , as shall cause the eares that heare thereof to ti●gle , and make us a by-word to all that passe by us . the lord open your eyes , that you may see the confusions whereof you are the cause , and give you true repentance , or confound you in all your purposes that be against him , and the regiment of his sonne iesus christ . the same lord , for the love hee beareth to his poore people , open the eyes of his majestie , and the honourable councellers , that they may see your godlesse practises , and in pitie to gods people , rid us from you , and turne away his iudgements , which the rejecting of his holy yoke hath deserved , not punishing them that mourne for the desolation of sion ▪ with those that spoil and make havock of the lords inheri●ance . amen . to the reader . infinite and unspeakable ( christian reader ) are the miseries from which iesus christ our saviour hath freed us , and the benefits and blessings , wherewith in this life he beginneth , and for ever will continue to adorne us . the consideration whereof ( if our thankefulnesse unto his majestie , were any way proportionable , to that which wee endevour unto towards men ) should make us continually to devise , and all the dayes of our life to studie how we might shew our selves ( at least in some sort ) carefull to glorifie his blessed name , above all things that we desire , by how much as his love towards us , excelleth whatsoever can e●se ( according to our wish ) befall unto us : but if we doe with equall ballance ( on the other side ) looke into the course of mans life ▪ how well this dutie is performed , we shall see , that men declare themselves rather bent to spit in his face , and to defie him , then any way to honour him as their head and soveraigne : for ( to say nothing of the prophane life , and godlesse conversation , wherewith the generall number , that professeth iesus christ , is wholly defiled ) we see that many nations ▪ people and languages are very willing to receive iesus christ as the●r priest to sacrifice for their sinnes , but that he should become their king , to prescribe lawes unto them , whereby they may be ruled , is of all other things the most unsavoury , yea ( if it be offered ) the most grievous tidings ▪ and unreasonable request : wherein , albeit many nations that have renounced that where of rome , are heynously sinfull against his glorious majestie , yet is there none in the whole world so farre out of square as england , in reteyning that popish hierarchie , first coyned in the midst of the mistery of iniquity , and that filthy sink of the canon law , which was invented and patched together ▪ for the confirming and increasing of the kingdome of antichrist· wherein as great indignity is offered unto iesus christ , in committing his church unto the government of the same , as can be ▪ by meane unde●lings unto a king ; in committing his beloved spouse unto the direction of the mistresse of the stewes , and enforcing her to live after the orders of a brothel-house . for the reformation whereof while some have w●itten , and others according to their callings , c●●efully st●od ▪ how heinously it hath beene taken , how har●ly they have beene used , and what ●hamefull reproches have beene off●red ( even unto the course of the gospell ) for spite that hath been ●●rne unto ref●●mation ▪ almost by all estates and degrees , lamentable ex●●●i●nce ●●th ta●g●● many ●f us· but our posterity shall know it more p●●ticularly , and the church th●oughout the world shall discerne and ●udge of it more evidently , when their bodyes are rotten in the dust , and their ●en●es ( if they repe●t not ) in eternall and intollerable torments ; who have re●ected a request so holy , profitable , and reasonable ; yea , and handled the intreaters for the same so cruelly , unchristianly , and unlawfully : but th●y would gladly perswade themselves ( if their conscience would let them ) that they have onely executed justice upon us as malefactours , and they perswade men that we desire a thing , not warr●nted by the word , not heard of in the church of god , untill within this few yeares , nor tollerable in any christian common-weale whatsoever : the which monstrous slanders , albeit they have beene many wayes , and by many men of most worthy gifts detected , and made knowne in those severall bookes that have beene published concerning the same : 〈◊〉 have i thought it necessary ( in another course ) to write also of it . the course of my enterprise , is first in respect of the favourers of the desired reformation ; secondly of the adversaries of the same ; the favourers of it are also of two sorts ; ministers of the word , and private persons , and both i hope , may have profit by it . concerning the former ▪ when these wofull troubles that were renewed upon us ( by that wretched su●scription , that was every where urged ) and begin to incre●●e , ● thought it meete to bet●ke my selfe unto that which i had read or might any way by study find out , concerning the cause , and collected all into a briefe summe , and referred every thing unto some head ; whi●h being ever present with me , might furnish me to answer in the defence of the truth , th●ugh it were of a sudden , by which ( through the bl●ssing of god . i found such profit in my severall troubles , that i thought it a course not altogether unprofitable for others also , and upon that occasion betooke my sel●e unto a more seri●us meditaion about the matter , and communicating the thing with divers very worthy men , i f●und encouragement and heartening on , generally by 〈◊〉 whom i made acquainted th●rewith : so that i trust the iudgements ▪ yea and 〈◊〉 al●o of others , so ●●●ping with mine ) many min●st●rs that love the cause , and have not throughly studied it as were meete they should , may reape some profit thereby . now concerning private men that love the cause , some have great affaires in hand , and have no leasure to reade the severall bookes of this argument : some when they reade , are not of sufficient capacitie to conceive the force of a reason , or to make use of it , to enforme themselves in the grounded knowledge of the cause thereby : some ( which is the generall fault of our religious gentlemen ) will take no paines to reade , some are poore and not able to buy the bookes which might let them see the cause , all these ( i hope ) may find helpe in some measure hereby . now concerning the adversaries unto the cause , they are of two sorts also , they that know is , and they that are ignorant of it : the former , if they write any thing against it ▪ are contented to deale in so roving a course as may rather arise unto great volumes , then soun●ly to say any thing against the cause : wherein d. whith●ft , but especially d. bridges , have given us an evident example : and these with others of their judgement ( though none in these latter dayes , have written more unlearnedly then they , of any argument of divinity whatsoever ) are contented to make the world believe ( if men will be so wilfully seduced ) that our arguments be no arguments , that they be grounded upon false foundations , and that we are not able to conclude our cause in any forme of reasoning the course that is here taken ( i trust ) shall shew that they are liars . the other sort of adversaries be they that be meerly ignorant of any thing , either for it or against it ; and perswading themselves that the sway and shew of the world must needs carry the truth with it , doe ( like blind bayards ) boldly venture to say any thing against it , and thinke they , doe well . now of all these sorts of people , i have to request something ; i hope i shall obtaine my request ( at the le●st ) at the hands of some of them . the first sort of favourers ( which be the ministers ) i intreat , that as they tender the glory of god , and honour of the cause which they stand in ; so they would diligently imploy themselves in this , that they may be found able to defend the same by sound and evident grounds out of the word , and so much the rather , for that the adversaries doe greatly triumph , when they meet with one that professeth the cause , and is not able to defend it , and confute the gainsayers of it . the second sort of favourers , be the private persons that l●ve the cause , whom j beseech to be carefull ( as of all other points of religion ) of this , that they grow in the knowledge of the word of god , whereby they may be able ▪ upon their owne knowledge to defend the truth , and not give the enemy any occasion to thinke or say , that they be of that mind , because such and such ministers , whom they doe affect , doe think● so . now concerning the former sort of adversaries , to wit , they that know it , j pray them to looke into their owne hearts , and they shall find they mislike it ; either because it correcteth their excessive pompe and maintenance , or requireth more travaile in their ministerie , then they are willing to undergoe , or at the least , controlleth that dissol●●enesse of behaviour , wherein they willingly wallow : and if it would please god to bring them to a serious meditation of this , that it is the will of the mighty god ( before whom they must be called to give an account ) which they doe resist , they would ( i doubt not ) more carefully looke about them . and lastly for them that being ignorant of the cause , speake evil● of that they know not , let them ( if they will be admonished ) vouchsafe to reade this little booke , and weigh the reasons with an upright judgement , which shall cause them ( at the least ) to suspend their sha●pe censures , which so usually appeare i● their ordinary communication : and concerning us all , let us know ( for one day we shall be sure to feele it ) that the controversie is not about goats w●ell ( as the proverb saith ) neither light and ●●●fling matters ▪ which may safely bee followed or re●ected ( as indeed the enemies of this cause doe confidently affirme ) but about no lesse matter then this , whether jesus christ shall be king or no ; for if none is said to bee a king , but he that ruleth by the scepter of his lawes , then the turning out of these orders which christ hath prescribed in his word , for the ruling of the church , is to give him the tytle , and deny him the authority belonging to the same , and so ( in truth ) to make him an idol , making him to carry a shew of that which he is not , and ( with the crucifiers of him ) to put a reede in his hand , in stead of his jron rod ; and crowning him with thornes , in stead of the crowne of greatest glory ; which is the cause that so many atheists spit in his face , and so many godlesse persons , doe make but a jest of him : but when hee commeth to shew himselfe in his glorious majestie , it shall be said unto all these sorts of adversaries , those mine enemies which would not that i should raigne over them , bring hither , and ●lea them before me , luke 19.27 . the which fearefull sentence , that wee may avoid , let every one of us ( as may stand with our severall callings ) carefully endevour , to advance this kingdome here , which ( among other assurances given us from the lord ) shall be a testimonie unto us , that we shall have part in that glory , which shall be revealed hereafter . now concerning the order of this booke ; to direct thee ( good reader ) unto thy further instruction , in the points thereof , thou hast in every chapter , divers proofes out of the holy word of god , which must be the things wherewith thou mayest safely informe thy conscience : then shalt thou find also arguments drawne from reason rightly ruled by the same word : and lastly , ( because our adversaries charge us , that we desire a thing not knowne unto the old writers , nor agreed upon among the new ) thou hast here the witnesse of them both in so plentifull and uniforme wise , as may plainely declare , that all godly learned men of all times , have given testimony unto the truth of it . if thou be satisfied therewith , give god the glory , and promote the cause by prayer , and all other good meanes that thy calling may afford : and pray for us , that we may never shrinke , nor be overthrowne by the strength of them that fight against it . finis . the true government of the church according to christs first institution , and the present practices of the reformed churches . chap. i. the generall proposition . that the word of god describeth perfectly unto us , tha● forme of governing the church which is lawfull , and the officers that are to execute the same ; from the which 〈◊〉 christian church ought to swerve . admonition in the preface . ecclesiasticall discip. fol. 5. tho. cartwrights first booke , page 26. discourse of government , page 1. &c. the assertion of the bishops and their adherents . the word of god describeth not any exact forme of discipline , neither are the offices or officers , namely , and particularly expressed in the scriptures , but in some points left to the discretion and libertie of the church . whitgift in praeface , and page ●4 . answer to the abstract , page 33. the proofe of the former is the disproofe of the latter , which is thus declared . 1. these things write i unto thee , &c. out of which place i reason thus . that end which paul respected in writing unto timothy , doth the holy ghost direct all ministers unto for ever ; for it must be kept , 1. ti● 6.14 ▪ but hee wrote to direct him in the establishing ●nd building of the church . therefore that word must direct ministers for ever : and consequently they neither may adde to , nor take from it , but governe it onely by the rules that be there prescribed . 2. every house ought to be ruled by the orders of the skilfull , wise , and carefull housholders onely : but the church is the house of god , and god is such a housholder : therfore the church ought to be ruled by the orders of god onely , which are no where to be had , but in his word . 3. that which teacheth every good way , teacheth also how the church must be governed : but the word of god teacheth every good way , pro. 2.9 . therefore it teacheth how the church must be governed . 4. we cannot glorifie god , but by obedience to his word ; in all that we doe , we m●st glorifie god , 1 cor. 10.31 . therefore in all that we doe , there must bee obedience to the word ; and consequently in governing his church . 5. if meat and drinke be not sanctified unto us , but by the word and prayer , then much lesse is any thing holy which is done in the government of the church besides the word : but the former is true by the testimonie of the apostle , 1 tim 4.5 . therefore the latter must be true also . 6. all lawfull things are of faith , rom. 14.23 . all lawfull things that are of faith , have a warrant from the word ; for the word is the foundation of faith : therefore all things lawfull , have their warrant from the word ▪ and consequently every lawfull action in the government of the church . 7. either hath god left a prescript forme of government for the church , under the new testament , or he is lesse carefull for it now , then he was under the law ▪ for his care is in guiding it : but he is as carefull now for his church as he was then : therefore hath he left a prescript forme to governe it . 8. he that was as faithf●ll as moses , left as cleere instruction , both for the building of faith , and government of the church , as moses did : but christ was as faithfull in gods h●use , heb ▪ 3.2 . therefore he left as cleare instruction for them both as moses : but moses gave direction even for every particula● , ●s appeareth in the building of the tabernacle , and order of the priesthood : therefore hath christ also given particular direction for the government of the church . 9. if the word of god have described sufficient ministers and ministeries , for the building of the church , and keeping it in good order , then is our assertion true : but it hath set downe sufficient for doctrine , exhortation , overseeing , distributing , and ordering of every particular church or generall synode : therefore is our assertion true . 10. that government which the apostles taught and planted , is expressed it the word of god : but the apostles taught and planted , pastours and teachers for instruction ; elders for over-sight , and deacons to distribute , and that uniformly in every church , as appeareth by their writings and practises : therefore a certaine forme of government is expressed in the word . 11. every lawfull offi●● and action in the building of the church , is from heaven , matth. 21.25 , 26. every thing that is ( in the ordinarie building ) from heaven , is revealed in the word : therefore every lawfull office and action is revealed in the word . 12. if god continued ( in regard of the substance ) the church administration , as well as the things to bee administred , then as the forme of discipline described in the word : but the former is true , as appeareth by the particular● ; for priests , pastours ; for teaching levites , or doctors of the law , teachers ; for rulers of the synagogue , elders ; for leviticall lookers to the treasurie , deacons ; for the sanedrim , the eldership : therefore the forme of government is prescribed in the word . 13. every wise king that is carefull for his subjects , setteth down lawes for the government of the same , and will have th●m tyed to no other : but christ is such a king unto his ch●rch : therefore hath he prescribed lawes unto hi● church , which none therein can alter or disobey ; and cons●quently , the certaine forme of government of the church is described in the word . 14. that which the ministers must teach the people to observe , is set downe in the word of god , for they may teach nothing but that which is there , matth. 28.20 . but they are to teach them to observe , and be obedient unto the particular forme of the church government : therefore the particular forme is set downe in the word . 15. every government consisteth in the governours matter whereabout they are to be imployed , and ma●ner of doing it : but in the word are described all these particulars ▪ as it is sh●wed in the 9. reason : therefore the word prescribeth a prescript forme of government . 16. the christian religion shall f●●d , that out of this scripture , rules of all doctrine have sprung , and that from hence doth sp●ing , and hither doth returne , whatsoever the ecclesiasticall discipline doth containe . 17. we may not give ourselves the liberty to bring in any thing that other men bring of their will ; we have the apostles for authours , which themselves brought nothing of their own will , but the discipline which they received of christ , they delivered faithfully to the people . 18 it is adulterous , it is sacrilegious , whatsoever is ordained by humane fury , that the divine disposition should bee violated . therefore if timothie was written unto , that he might be directed by the word , in disposing of the churches ; if the lawes of god onely being the housholder , must be followed in the church , his house ; if the word of god teach us in every good way , whereof the government of the church is one ; if god must be glorified in the ruling of his church , which cannot be , but by obedience to his word ; if nothing be lawfull , but that which is of faith , warranted by the word ; if god have shewed himselfe as carefull for his church under the gospell , as under the law ; if christ was as faithfull to give direction as moses , if in the word be described sufficient ministers and ministeries , to build up the church ; if that government , which the apostles taught and pract●sed , be in the word ; if every lawfull office and action in an ordinary building , be from heaven , and revealed thence by the word ; if god continued the same forme ( in respect of the substance ) in the time of the gospel , that was under the law ; if every wise carefull king , doe set downe lawes for the direction of his subjects ; if the apostles have taught us to obey that which christ commanded ; if both the governours matter of government , and manner of doing it , be set downe in the word ; if all that pertaineth to ecclesiasticall discipline , spring from the scriptures ; if wee may bring nothing into the discipline of the church , but that which the apostles have delivered us ; lastly , if that be adulterous and sacrilegious , that is not according to the word : then it must needs follow , that god doth describe perfectly unto us out of his word , that forme of government which is lawfull , and the officers that are to execute the same : from the which it is not lawfull for any christian church to sw●rve . and contrariwise , that is a most untrue assertion to say . that the officers and offi●es are not particularly expressed , but left to the discretion of the church . the reasons that they alleadge against this , are in effect ●one , and their objections to these reasons , not worthy to be mentioned . chap. ii. every officer in the church , must be placed in some calling warranted by the word of god , and some congregation must have need of such a one , before hee be called to any function . wherein are these propositions . 1 no calling is lawfull in the church , but that which is directly warranted out of the word , unto him that executeth it . the bishops and their adherents think otherwise , as their practise in ordaining archbishops , lord bishops , deanes , archdeacons , chancellors , officialls , &c. doth plainly declare . 2 the name and office of an archbishop is contrary to the word of god . 3 no man may be ordained unto any office in the church , untill there be such a place void as he is fit for : t.c. 1 book , page 61. they think otherwise , as their making of so many ministers at once proveth , and as is holden , whitgift page 222. 1 the first is proved thus : if iohn was constrained to prove his minister●● out of the scriptures when the priests accused him ; then is no calling lawfull , that hath not his warrant in the word , for if any be priviledged , the extraordinary ministers ( whereof he was one ) are specially excepted ▪ but hee proved his ministery by the word , as appeareth by his answer unto them ▪ in the 23 verse . therfore no calling is lawfull in the church , that hath not his wa●rant in the word . 2 the callings under the gospell must have as good warrant as they had under the law , because the light of the gospell is ( at the least ) as cleare as that of the law : but there was never any lawfull calling under the law ( excepting those that were by miraculous manner confirmed from heaven ) which had not his direct warrant out of the word . therefore no calling is lawfull in the church , which is not directly warranted in the word . 3 if corah , dathan , and abiram ( though they were levites ) were punished for that they had no warrant for that which they presumed to take in hand , then is every lawfull calling , both in generall warranted out of the word , and particularly layd upon the parties from the lord : but the former is true , as the historie teacheth us : therefore must the latter needs be true also . 4 that which giveth comfort unto a man in the time of his troubles , must have a warrant out of gods word : but every lawfull calling giveth comfort unto a man to the time of his troubles : therfore every lawfull calling hath a warrant out of gods word . 5 that which helpeth gods people forward in god●ines , must have a warrant out of gods word : for god hath promised a blessing to his owne ordinance onely : but every lawfull calling in the church , helpeth gods people forward in godlinesse : therefore every lawfull calling hath a warrant out of gods word . therefore if john did prove his calling out of the scriptures ; if every calling under the law , was warranted out of the scriptures ; if corath , &c. were punished for enterprising that which they had no warrant for , out of the scriptures , if comfort in troubles commeth onely from the scriptures ; and lastly , if every h●lp to godlinesse is warranted in the scriptures ; then , &c. they confesse all these reasons to be true ; but doe denie that the archbishops , l. bishops , &c. be distinct ministers from others . whitgift page 303. which we hold , t. c. 2. book page 438. and prove it thus . 1 those things that have divers efficient causes , are divers : our bishops and the ministers of the word have divers efficient causes , for the one is the ordinance of god , the other the constitution of humane policie , as themselves doe confesse : therefore they are distinct ministers from others . 2 a divers forme maketh divers things : the ministers of the word , and the l. bishops have divers formes : for their ordination ( even in the church of england ) is divers , seeing one l. bishop may ordaine a minister : but there must be three to ordaine one of them : therefore they are distinct ministers . 3 members of one division are distinct one from another : the l. bishops and ordinary ministers be members of one division : for usually the minist●rs be divided into the rulers , and them that are to be ruled : therefore they are distinct ministers . 4 the things that have divers effects , are divers in themselves one from another : the l. bishops and other ministers have divers effects ; for the one effecteth rule and government , the other subjection and obedience : therefore they are divers and distinct ministers . 5 they that be imployed about divers things are divers one from another : the l. bishops and the ordinary ministers , be imployed about divers things ; for the one is exercised in generall view of many congregations , and the other in the particular direction of one : therefore they be distinct ministers . 6 that which is perpetuall , and that which may be taken away by men , are distinct one from another : the office of the minister is perpetuall , ephes. 4.13 . and the bishops may be taken away as themselves confesse : therefore they are divers , & distinct ministers . therefore if the ministers of the word , and l. bishops proceed from divers causes ; if they have their being by divers formes ; if they be members of one division , which ( in nature ) cannot be one ; if they produce divers effects ; if they be exercised about divers subjects : lastly , if the one be perpetuall , and the other but for a time , then must it needs follow , that they are divers and distinct ministers one from another . the name of an archbishop , and also the office that he executeth , is contrary to the word of god . first , the reasons that prove it unlawfull to give the name unto any man in the church , are these . 1 no man may have the name given him , which is prope● to our saviour iesus christ : but the name of archbishop is proper unto our saviour iesus christ , as appeareth in the places quoted : therefore no man may have the name of archb. given unto him . 2 if the name pope be therefore odiou● , because of that antichrist , who is intituled therwith , then must also the name of archb. when it is ascribed unto any mortall man ; forsomuch as it is the title of a speciall member of that kingdome of antichrist : but the former is true even by their owne confession . whitgift page 300. therefore must the latter be true also . but they object divers things against this , for the proving of the name archb. to be lawfully given unto some men , which together with their answers doe brief●y follow . 1 objection . clemens alloweth of those names , as polydor reporteth , lib. 4. cap. 12. answer . polydor is but the reporter , and m ▪ ●ewell hath proved evidently against harding that clemens is counterfeit , and worthy of no credit . 2 objection . erasmus saith , that titus was an archbishop . answer . he spake as the times were wherein hee lived : but that proveth not that he held him one indeed , no more then our naming of the archbishop of canterbury when wee speake of him , proveth that we like and allow his authority . 3 objection . anacletus saith , that james was the first archbishop of ierusalem . answer . hee is forged ( as our answers to the papists have shewed ) but a witnesse of better credit calleth him onely a bishop , euseb. lib. 2. cap. 23. and simon bishop after him , lib. 3. cap. 22. and iraeneus saith , lib. 4 cap 63. that the apostles ordained bishops every where , making no mention of archb. 4 objection . the councell of nice , canon 6. mentioneth a metropolitan bishop . answer . that proveth nothing , for it was onely as much as to say , the bishop of the chiefe citie . secondly , the reasons that prove the office of the archb. unlawfull be these . 1 every ministery that is lawfull , must be of god : the office of the archb. is not of god , for that ●ee is not 〈◊〉 i● he word , and themselves confesse that hee is of humane policie : therefore the office of the archb. is unlawfull . 2 that ministery whose originall is unknowne , hath no warrant from gods word , and consequently is unlawfull . the originall of the archb. is unknown as they confesse ; whitgift page 351. therefore it is unlawfull . 3 that office which is needlesse in the church , is also unlawfull to be exercised in the same : the office of the archb. is needlesse , for the ministery is perfect without it , as the apostle proveth , ephes. 4.13 . therefore the office of an archb. is unlawfull . 4 if all the gifts needfull for the perfecting of the church , be appropriated unto other m●nisteries , then is his ministery unlawfull : but all the needfull gifts , are appropriated unto p●stors , doctors , elders and deacons , whereof he is none : therefore his office is unlawfull . 5 that office is unlawfull , which none may lawfully give : but none may lawfully bestow the office of an archbishop , because none can give any new gifts to adorne him withall : therefore his office is unlawfull . this reason being used of all sound divines against the pope , is of the same value against the archb. 6 if the office of an archb. be lawfull , then it is either in respect of his excellencie above other men , or the place whereof hee is above other places : but neither of these have ever beene , neither hereafter can be : therefore that office is unlawfull . therefore if the office of the archb. be not of god ; if the originall of it be unknowne ; if in the church it be needlesse ; if all the gifts that god hath bestowed upon his ministery be appropriated unto those church officers , whereof he is none ; if none may lawfully bestow such an office upon any ; if it can neither be incident unto any one man for his excellencie , nor his place for preheminence , then must it needs follow , that his office is unlawfull . calvin in his instit. book 4 cap 11. sect ▪ 7. alleadgeth divers reasons to this purpose , and beza in his book of divorcements , stretcheth the same to all the inferiour officers under him , saying : officials , proctors , promotours , and all that swinish filth , now of long time ●ath wasted the church . so doth peter martyr upon the rom. 13. speaking against civill iurisdiction in bishops , doth by the same reasons condemne it in their subst●tutes . but this being the corner stone of their building , they labour to support it with many prop● , the most speciall whereof are these . 1 ob●ection . cyprian saith ▪ lib. 1. epist. 3. ad cornelium , neither have ●aresies and schismes risen of any other occasion , then of that , that the pri●st of god is not obeyed neither one priest for the time , and one judge for the time in the stead of ch●ist thought upon , to whom if the whole brotherhood would be obedient according to gods teaching , no man would move any thing against the colledge of priests . answer . this place is alleaged for the pope , and the answer that m. jewell and others make to it , serveth our turne : onely let this be noted , that cyprian speaketh of the people at rome , that had received another bishop ( besides cornelius ) who was an haeretick ; for all the course of his writing● , condemneth this superiority . it is expounded by m. jewel , booke 1. sect 4. division 5. of every bishop : and so it is by m. nowell against dorman , booke 1. page 25. and also by m. fox . tom 1. fol 93. see t. c. in his 1. reply , page 98. &c. 2 ob●ection the authority of the archb. preserveth unity . answer cyprian lib. 4. epist 9. saith ▪ that un●ty is reserved by the agreement of bishops , that is of ministers , one with another . 3 objection . it compoundeth controversies , that else would grow to many ●eads without any speciall remedy . answer . cyprian lib. 1. epist 13. saith , that the plentifull body and company of elders ▪ are ( as it were ) the glew of mutuall concord , that if any of our company be author of haeresie , the rest should help . 4. objection . ierome upon tit. 1. saith that in the beginning a bishop and priest ( meaning a teaching elder ) were all one : but when men began to say , i am of paul , i am of apollo , &c. it was decreed that one should be chosen to beare rule over the rest . answer . from the beginning it was not so : the saying of tertul. contra prax. is fit for this : that is true whatsoever is first , and that is false whatsoever is latter : and ierome saith in the place alledged , that this authority is by custome , and not by any institution of god ; if it had beene the best way to take away divisions , the apostles ( in whose times the controversies did arise ) would have taken the same order . 5. objection . calvin saith that the apostles had one among them to governe the rest . answ. that was not in superioritie , but for order , to propound the matters , gather the voyces , and such like ; which ●s meete to be in every well ordered meeting : but his authority is no more over the rest , then the speaker in the parliament hath over the other knights and burgesses . 6. ob●ect . paul was superiour to tim●thy and titus . answ. paul and they had divers offices , whereof the apostles office was the chiefe , the like is to be said of timothy and titus , having superiority over the other ministers , for that they were evangelists , a degree above ordinarie ministers . ther●fore if the place alledged out of cyprian , make nothing for archb. if unity be not preserved by him , but by the bishops among themselves ; if his authority make nothing to the taking away of controversies ; if it be meerely invented by man , and not from the beginning ; if it bee by custome , and not by any ordinance of god ; if neither one apostle over the rest , nor any of them over the evangelists , nor of the evangelists over the pastours and teachers , will serve to prove their authority : then must it needs follow , that it is utterly unlawfull . no man may be ordained unto any office in the church , untill there be such a place voyd as he is fit for , t.c. booke 1 , page 61. whitgift , page 222. 1. as was the 12. place for matthias , so is a certaine church , to every church officer : but matthias was not ordained unto the place of an apostle , untill judas by hanging himselfe , had made it void , act. 1.20 . therefore may none be ordained unto any office in the church ▪ before the place where he may be imployed , be destitute of such a one . 2. as the apostles did in planting of the churches , so must it be done in the building thereof for ever : but they ordained neither pastour , teacher , elder or deacon , but to some certaine church that had need thereof : therefore may none be ordained unto any office , untill a place be void that hath need of him . 3. those things that be of one beginning , continuance and ending , cannot be one , before or after another : but a minister , and the execution of his ministry in a lawfull standing be so ; for they bee relatives , and have reference one unto the other : therefore a minister ought not be ordained before there be a ministery whereunto he is to be allotted . 4. if none ought to be called to be a shepheard , that hath no flock of sheepe to keepe : neither any watchman , that is not allotted to some place to watch : then may none be ordained to any office , before there be a place void for him : for ministers are in this sence tearmed shepheards and watchmen : but the former is true , as every simple man can easily perceive : therefore the latter is true also . 5. to doe contrary to the precepts and practize of the apostles is unlawfull : but to ordaine any officer , without a certaine place wherein he may be imployed , is contrary to the precepts and practize of the apostles , as it appeareth , tit. 1.5 . act. 14.23 . therefore to ordaine any officer of the church , without a certaine place whereunto he is to be allotted , is unlawfull . 6. it was ordained that no elder , deacon , or any other ecclesiasticall officer , should be ordained a apolelymen●s , that is loosely , or let at randone ( but a● afterward is expounded ) specially in a church of citie or towne , 7. the ordination that is made without a title , let it bee void : and in what church one is intituled , let him there remaine . 8. he complaineth that ministers were ordained , being chosen by no church , and so went here and there , h●ving no certaine place . 9. that action , which never is read to be practized , but by idolaters , is unlawfull : to have wandring officers , is onely ●ound to be in idolaters , as appeareth , iudg. 17.8 . therefore it is unlawfull . therefore , if the apostles ordained not matthias ▪ untill the place was void ; if in planting of churches , they ever alotted officers to their proper places ; if minister and ministery be of one beginning , continuance and ending ; if it be with a minister , and his ministery , as with a shepheard and his flocke , that he cannot bee the one , but in respect of having the other ; if it be unlawfull to transgresse the precepts and practice of the apostles ; if no minister in the church , be ordained at randone ; if the ordination that is without a title be voyd ; if jerome complained of it , as a great fault in his time ; if no example be found of it , but in idolaters : then must it needs follow , that to ordaine any church officer , untill there be such a place void as he is fit for , is utterly unlawfull : and so the bb. making of many ministers at once , and licencing of wandring preachers , is contrary to the word of god . they will have something to say for every action they doe , be it never so shamefull : that which they alledge for this , is , that paul and barnabas did wander . the apostles office ( and so the evangelists as assistants unto them ) was to preach the word , and plant churches in every part of the world : but the order that they left , is a president for us , which is that every church have their proper officers , and that there bee no other elsewhere to be found . chap. iii. every church-officer ought to execute the office committed unto him ▪ with all faith●ull diligence , and consequently be continually resident upon his charge , t.c. book 1. page 65. they deny not the proposition , but the consequent that is inferred upon it , as appeareth by their writings , whitgift page 246. and by their daily practice in giving dispensations for many benefices . the reasons we alledge to prove the necessitie of perpetuall residence , and the unlawfulnesse of nonresidence be these that follow . 1. a shepheard hath a flocke to the end to feed it continually : the minister is a shepheard , and his charge a flocke : therefore he ought to feed it continually , and consequently to bee perpetually resident , for how can he feed them from whom he is absent ? 2. where god doth place any man , there his continuall travaile is needfull , for god is most wise in disposing every thing : but god placeth every right minister over that people , which is his charge : therefore his continuall travaile is needfull there , and consequently he may not discontinue . 3. flockes that are in danger , are ( by carefull shepheards ) watched night and day , luke 2.8 . every congregation is a flock in danger , for the enemy goeth about like a roaring lyon , ●pet. 5.8 . and soweth tares whilest men sleepe , matth. 13.25 . therefore every congregation is to be watched night and day by the minister thereof , and consequently he may not be non-resident . 4 if his duty to them requireth so much travaile , as may continu●lly set him on work , then may he not be non-resident : but it is evident ( that it doth so ) to all them that either know by the word of god , what study , prayer , doctrine , exhortation , &c , be required of him , or maketh any conscience of giving account for the souls committed to their charge : therefore may not they be non-resident . 5 if the minister cannot apply himselfe fruitfully , to the capacity of his people , unlesse he have particular knowledge of their disposition , and capacity , th●● is it not lawfull for him to be non-resident : for by continuall residence among them , hee may know them and not else : but the former is true , as the small knowledge that the people get by generall teaching , doth evidently declare : therefore it is not lawfull for him to be non-resident . 6 if the ministers of the gospell , be as narrowly tyed to their charges , as the priests under the law , then may they not be non-resident : for they were alwayes ready in the temple , to answer the doubts , 1 sam. 1.9 : but it is cleare that they are , because men are now as hardly trayned unto godlines , and the enemie is as wrathfull as he was then : therefore they may not be non-resident . 7 if the minister must be an example to his people ; then must he be daily present with them , that they may behold him : but the former is true , 1 tim. 4 12. therefore is the latter true also . 8 he whom the sheep are to follow in and out , ●nd must know by the voyce , ought to be continually among them : a good minister of the word is such a one , john 10.4 . therefore he must be resident among them . 9 none can be alwayes ●eady to feed his flock , that is absent from it : every minister must be alwayes ready to feed his flock , because it dependeth upon him . 1 pet. 5.2 . therefore every minister is to be resident with his flock . 10 he that must take heed to his flock , watch over it , and feed it , must be resident continually with it : every mini●ter must doe so ▪ act. 20 28. therefore &c. 11 if satan be the cause of non-residence , then is it utterly unlawfull : but satan is the cause of it , 1 thes. 2.17.18 . therefore it is utterly u●lawfull . 12 that which abridgeth the love of god to his people , and comfort to the minister , that same is unlawfull : but not to be resident doth both : therefore it is unlawfull . 13 that which hindreth the loving familiarity that should be betwixt the minister and his people , that same is unlawfull : but non-residence doth so , for it maketh them strange one to another , and argueth small love in him towards them : therefore it is unlawfull . 14 to be absent from them that have interest in us , and continuall need of us , is unlawfull , which wee can see to be true in our servants , &c : but the congregation hath an interest in the minister , and continuall need of him : therefore it is unlawfull for him to be absent from them . 15 if the priests might not dwell farre from the temple , then may not ministers be non-resident : but the former is true , as appeareth by this ; that they had houses builded close to the temple . 1 chron. 28.13 . therefore the latter is true also , seeing the residence of the one is as needfull as the other , as appeareth in the sixt reason . 16 let no clerk be placed in two charges , for it is filthy merchandise , and no man can serve two masters , and every one must tarry in that place whereunto he is called . 17 damasus compareth them that set over their charges to others , to harlots that put out their children , that they may give themselves to lust the sooner . 18 it was ordained that none , either bishop or elder , should goe from citie to citie . therefore , if a mini●●er have the charge of a flock committed unto him , to the end to feed it ; if god place men , to the end to have them there imployed ; if flocks in danger have need of continuall watch ; if the ministers duty to his flock requireth all that travaile that hee can performe ; if hee cannot be fruitfully profitable unto them , without continuall residence ; if his residence be as strictly required as theirs under the law ; if hee cannot be a patterne unto them without he be resident ; if they cannot follow him , nor know him if he be absent ; if he cannot be alwayes ready to feed his flock , unlesse he be there ; if he cannot take heed to them , feed them , and watch over them , without his presence ; if satan be the author of non-residencie ; if his absence abridge gods love to them , and comfort from himselfe ; if absence be an hinderance to the loving familiarity that should be betwi●t him and them ; if they have interest in him , and continuall need of him ; if hee may no more be absent , then the priests dwell from the temple ; if the councel of nice did upon good grounds forbid it ; if absence be like to the practise of an harlot ; if it be not lawfull to goe from place to place ; then is non-residence unlawfull , and the practise thereof contrary to the word of god . the belly ( for which non-residencie is defended and practised ) hath no cares , therefore it is that they heare not these evident sounds ; yet have they very little to say for it , so grosse is the error thereof ; so much as hath any shew of reason , is here set down and answered . 1 objection . two parishes may be united , why then may not one have charge of them both before , when they be two . answer . because one shepheard may keepe one flock though it be great , but he cannot keepe two , being very little , and going in divers pastures ; againe , one man may have so many flocks as hee can lead in and out every sabbath , to the exercises of religion , which is very plaine that hee cannot doe , to more then one congregation . 2 ob●ection . parishes were divided by men , as especially by denis the monk , pope of rome . answer . that is untrue , for the apostles divided the church into congregations , and placed elders over every one of them , as the whole course o● the acts and epistles of the apostles proveth : and whitgift confesseth page 250. therefore these mists , notwithstanding non-residencie , must needs be unlawfull : and certainly those that have any sparkle of conscience , feare of god , or love to their flocks , will never defend it , much lesse enter into the practise of it . chap. iiii. it belongeth to the church , to make choise of those officers which christ would have placed in the same : t. c. 2 booke , 1 part , page 193. ecclesiast . discip. fol. 40. and whitgift confesseth it , page 164. they deny this , as their denying of all the arguments that bee brought for it doth prove , whitgift page 154.166 , &c. and their practise of allowing patrons , and also being such themselves doth evidently decla●e . if the former be proved true , then the latter must return to antichrist , which ●s thus declared . 1 that which was the continuall and constant practise of the church in the time of the apostles , that same is to be followed for ever , which appeareth by this , that the ordinances given from god by paul , 1 tim. 6.14 . are enjoyned to be kept untill christ come to judgement : but it was the constant , and the continuall practise of the churches , then to have a stroke in the choise of their owne ecclesiasticall officers , act. 1.26 . where the apostles presented two , to the peoples liking : whereof god was to be prayed unto , to make one an apostle , act. 6.3 . where the church is willed to choose their deacons , and act. 14 25. where they gave their consent in the choosing of their elders , by the stretching forth of their hands : therefore it belongeth to the church to choose their own church officers . 2 if the people had an interest in the liking of their teaching levites , ( which were of the tribe of aaron ) then much more must the people now , for there was greater likelihood , that they were sent of god , then any of the common sort of men : but the former is true , as appeareth by the manner of the setting of them aside unto that office in the law : therefore must the latter needs be true also . 3 that which pertaineth unto all , ought to be approved of all the congregation : but every ministery in the church , pertaineth to all the congregation : therefore , authority to approve of them , pertaineth to all the congregation . 4 that election which is most effectuall to bring the people to obedience , is of all other the best , and to abridge it , is unlawfull : but election by common consent , is most effectuall to bring the people to obedience ; when they shall see him teach or rule , whom they themselves have chosen : therefore election by the church is the best , and all other kinds of elections unlawfull . 5 that election which procureth greatest reverence of the people to their teachers and rulers is meetest , and all others unlawfull : but for the people to consent in the election of their governours , procureth greatest reverence , in their hearts towards them : therefore election by the people is the best , and all others be unlawfull . testimonies of the ancient writers . 6 the minister should be chosen ( the people being present ) in the eyes of all , and should be by the common judgement , and testimony approved worthy and fit , &c. therefore this is the lawfull vocation by the word of god , where those which are chosen , be appointed by the consent and approbation of the people . for which also , he bringeth divers authorities out of the scriptures . 7. that is truly and certainly a divine election of a bishop , which is made by the whole church . 8. let the people have authority to choose their clerkes and ministers . 9. they runne ( speaking of the life of the clerkes ) to bishops suffra●a●● certaine times of the yeare , and bringing some summe of money , they are anoynted and ordained , being chosen of none , and afterward the bishop without any lawfull election , is chosen in huggermuger of the canons , or prebendaries onely , without the knowledge of the people . 10. in the oration of the death of his father , approveth the election by the people , at large , and confuteth them that would hinder it 11. when he appointed eradius to succeed him , faith , it was the approved right and custome , that the whole church should either choose o● consent unto their bishop . 12. anthimius choosing a bishop without the peoples consent , filled all armenia with sedition . 13. why did peter communicate the election with the disciples ? left the matter should have turned to a braule , and have fallen to a contention . testimonies of generall councells . 14. it is meete that you should have power , both to choose , and to give their names that are worthy to be among the clergie , and to doe all things absolutely according to the lawes and decrees of the church , and if it happen any to dye in the church , then those which were last taken , are to be promoted , to the honour of him that is dead , if they be worthy , and if the people choose them . 15. let the people choose , and the bishop approve , and seale up the election with them . 16. in an ep●stle to damasus , ambrose , &c. saith , wee have ordained nectarius bishop of constantinople , &c. the whole citie decreeing the same ; and flaviarus was appointed bishop of antioch , the whole citie appointing him . 17. when he hath beene examined in all these and found fully instructed , then let him be ordained bishop , by the common consent of the clerkes and lay people . 18. let not him be counted a priest in the church , whom the clergie , and people of that citie where he is , doe not choose . 19. if any bishop after the death of his predecessor , be chosen of any , but of the bishops of the same province , and of the clergie and citizens , let another be chosen : and if it be otherwise , let the ordination be void and of none effect . testimonies out of the emperours lawes . 20. following the doctrine of the holy apostles , &c. wee ordaine , that as oft as it shall fall out , that the ministers place shall be void in any citie , that voyces be given of the inhabiters of that citie , that he ( of three which for their right faith , holinesse of life , and other things , are most approved ) bee chosen to the bishopricke which is most meete o● them . 21. being not ignorant of the holy canons : that the holy church should use her honour the more freely , we assert unto the ecclesiasticall order , that the bishops be chosen , by the election of the clergie and people 22. he decreed , that he should be bishop of rome , whom all the people of rome should consent to choose 23. lodovicke the second , commanded by h●s letters , the romans to choose their owne bish●p ▪ not looking for other mens voyces , which ( being strangers ) could not so well tell wh●t was done in the common-wealth , where they were strangers , and that it appertained to the citizens . 24. let the people ( saith otho the emperour ) choose and i will approve it . the testimonies of the new writers . 25. the new writers , as musculus , in his common places , in the t●tle of magistrates : bullinger upon 1 tim. 4. calvin . justitut . bo●ke 4 chap. 3. sect 15 harmon . confes. helvet . cap. 18. and many others are on our side in this behalfe . 26. if there be none that write against it , but the papi●●s , and no arguments us●d against it , but those which b● borrowed out of the popish writers , then doth it belong to the church to choose their owne church officers : but the former is true , as a●l that doe reade them that write o● this argument doe know , and as is manifest , by compari●g pighius , hosius , &c. with whitgift : therefore the latter is true also . therefore seeing the interest of the church in choosing of their church officers , is grounded upon the word of god , both in commandement , and continuall practize , both in the old and n●w testament ; seeing it is warranted by the l●ght of common ●eason ; seeing it is commended unto us , by the manifold practize of all ancient times , so long as any sinceritie remained , not onely in the time of persecution , but also o● peace ; seeing it hath beene confirmed by so many generall councels , and ratified by the decrees of so many emperours ; seeing it hath such a cloude of witnesses , both of ancient and latter times , of the best approved writers ; seeing none doe set themselves against it , but the papists , or they that invade it onely with the same weapons that are fetched out of the popes armory , it must needs follow , that it belongeth unto the church to choose their church officers : and that the taking away of this freedome , abridgeth the liberty that christ hath endowed his church withall , and bringeth her into great bondage , as musculus truly affirmeth . their ob●ections against those things are these . 1 ob●ect . they were then under the crosse , ●ew in number , and therfore it was easily knowne who were fit . answ. the gospell was dispersed thorowout all asia , affricke , and much of europe , and they could lesse keepe together , or meete , and therefore that maketh rather for us . 2. object . wee have many hypocrites , to whom it were dangerous to commit such waighty actions . answ. it is true , that we have many : but it is a principle in hypocrisie , to be forwardst in such publike actions , that they may get fame thereby . 3. object . they had knowledge to doe it , but our people be ignorant . answ. we should also find our people to have knowledge , if they had teaching : but howsoever they choose , they cannot have worse then ordinarily are chosen by the bishops and patrons . 4. object . the church was not then established . answ. that is untrue , for though it wanted the help of magistrates ▪ yet the apostles could and did better establish without them , then we can with the help of them : but if this order might be altered , it had bin fitter then , for now the magistracie may compound the differences of the elders , which help then they lacked . 5. object drunkards , papists , &c. will choose them that be like themselves , and we know the best disposed be alwayes the fewest . answ. such are not of the church , but without , 1 cor. 5.12 and therefore are not ●o meddle in any holy action : but if the people should choose an unmeet man , the eldership that governeth the action , is to reforme them : besides this , if gods order had her place , the schooles of the prophets would send them none , ( for the ministers especially ) to make choyse of , but meet men , that whomsoever they tooke , he should be found sufficient . 6. object . paul commandeth , 1 tim. 5.22 . to lay his hands on no man rashly : therefore one did it . answ. he teacheth what to doe for his part , and though others would be rash , yet he should not joyne with them in it , as appeareth in the latter end of that same verse , for that is ascribed unto him , which also belonged unto others , because he was the director : calvin and musculus expound the place so . 7. ob●ect . the councell of laodi●ea decreed that the people should not elect . answ. that is , as calvin taketh it upon acts 16. they might not elect alone , without the direction of some grave and good minister , which should be the manner in the elections , that ( according to gods word ) we desire . chap. v. none is to be admitted unto any publike office in the church ▪ untill he be thorowly examined by the eldership , both concerning his state of christianity , and ability to th●● place whereto he is to be called , t.c. 1 book . page 38. disci . ecclesiast . fol. 46. they thinke one may doe it , as appeareth by the booke of o●dering , &c. whitgift , page 134. & 135. and their slight passing it over , thorow the archdeacons hands ▪ the former is proved , and the latter disproved thus . 1. those that are to ordaine , must have particular knowledge of the parties to be ordained , ( or else they breake the rule pr●scribed them , 1 tim. 5.22 . ) which cannot be without examinat●on : but the eldership is to ordaine every church officer , a● shall appeare in the chapter of ordination : therefore it belongeth to the eldership to examine , & ● . 2. the matter of greatest importance in the government of the church , must be done by the most able governours of the same : the approving or disproving of church officers ▪ is the matter of greatest importance , because the consequence of ruling well is the best , or ill the worst : and the eldership is the senate of most able governours in the church , as shall appeare in the chap. of eldership : therefore the eldership is to examine , &c. 3 the way whereby a mans insufficiencie is best espied , and his ability discerned , is the fittest to examine them that are to be admitted : but by the eldership ( consisting of divers ) his insufficiencie is best espied , and his ability best discerned , for the common proverb telleth us , that many eyes doe see more then one : therefore it belongeth to the eldership , &c. 4 they are to examine church officers , that are least subject to be blinded with partiality : but the eldership is least subject to partiality , both for that they be many , who are not so easily over-ruled by affection or favour , as one , as also ( and that especially ) for that it being the lords owne ordinance ( as shall appeare ) we are to perswade our selves , that his spirit shall guide them : therefore it belongeth to the eldership , &c. 5 the way that was used in the apostles time in examining , is of us to be followed , unlesse some reason out of the word to perswade the conscience , can be alleadged to the contrary , which none have ever yet done : but many used in the apostles tim● to examine , as appeareth in chosing out one to be in the place of judas , act 1.22.23 . and fit men for deacons , act. 6.5 . whereof the governours especially were some , for that they were to ordaine upon knowledge , ●s is said in the first reason : therefore it belongeth to the eldership , &c. 6 they whose testimony the people may best credit , are to examine them that are to be admitted : but the people may best credit the judgement of a company of able and sufficient men , which the eldership rightly established must needs be : therefore it belongeth to the eldership , &c. 7 examination belongeth unto them which may most perswade the people of his sufficiency , and so procure greatest reverence unto him in his place : but the examination by the eldership is such : therefore it belongeth to the eldership &c. therefore if they that are to ordaine , must examine : if it be a matter of greatest w●ight in the government of the church , and they the most able to dispatch it ; if by them his sufficiency or ins●fficiency be best found out ; if they be hardliest ca●ied away with affection or partiality ; if the examination was such in the apostles time ; if the people may ( in reason ) give most credit to the examination that is by such ▪ if that kinde of examination p●rswade the people best of his sufficiency , and procure him greatest reverence in his place : then must it needs follow , that it per●aineth to the eldership to examine those that are to be admitted to any office in the church . there is nothing objected against this , that hath any shew of ●eason in it , and therefore it were needlesse to set any thing downe . chap. vi . before consent bee given to any man unto any calling in the church , it must appeare ( by sufficient triall , and due examination ) that he is qualified with those gifts , that the word of god requireth in one of that place , discipl . ecclesiast . fol 44. t.c. 2. book , 1. part , page 368. and in many other places . they gain-say this in two points : first , in maintaining their reading ministery : secondly , in governing the church , by their commissaries and offic●als : which both shall be overthrowne . ●f wee prove these two propositions following , to b● true by the word of god . no man ought to be received unto the ministery , but such as be able to teach the truth , and convince the gain-say●rs . the church ought not to be governed by commissaries officials and chancellours . 1 hee that may be received into the ministery , must be able to teach the people , whatsoever christ hath comm●nded , math 28.28 . onely he that is able to teach the truth and convince the gain-sayers , can teach the people whatsoever chr●st hath commanded : therefore none must be received into the ministery , but such as be able to t●●ch ▪ &c. 2 that which is to be done conditionally , may not be done , if that condition be not kept : men are to be received into the ministery conditional●y , that is , if they be unreproveable , tit. 1.5 6. therefore if they be not such as be there described , they may not bee received : and consequently , none may be received , but such as be able to teach ▪ &c. 3 that which cannot be done without the manifest breach of gods commandement , may not be done at all : to receive any that be not able to teach , is a manifest breach of gods commandement . 1 tim. 3.1 . tit. 1.9 . therefore no man ought to be received into the ministery , that is not able to teach , &c. 4 they whom the lord refuseth to be his ministers , may not be received into the ministery : for the ministery being the lords harvest , we may admit none to labour therein , but only such , as he hath given liking of , by the rules of his word : the lord refuseth to be his ministers , all these that cannot teach , hosea 4 ▪ 6. therefore such as are not able to teach , may not be received , and consequently none may be received , but those that be able to teach , &c. 5 he that may be admitted into the ministery , must be able to divide the word of god aright , 2 tim. 2.15 . only he that is able to te●ch and convince the gain-sayers , can divide the word of god aright : therefore none may be admitted into the ministery , but hee that is able to teach , &c. 6 he that may be admitted into the ministery , must have a treasury , furnished with old things and new , and must be abl● to ●ri●g it forth as occasion shall serve , matth. 13.52 . onely hee that is able to teach , &c. is such a one : therefore onely he may be admitted ▪ &c. 7 he that can espy the enem● , & give warning afore hand now to resist him , may be receiv●d into the minis●●ry ▪ ●z●k 33 7. none can espy the enemie , and give warning afore-han● how to 〈◊〉 him , but both t●is able to 〈◊〉 &c. th●ref●r● one ma● be ad●itted ●nto the minist●ry ▪ but he 〈…〉 to t●ach , &c. 8 〈…〉 his people into hell , may not be adm●●te●●nto the mini●tery : he th●t ●s not a●le to te●ch and convince the gai●-●ayer lea●eth him●e●f and his p●●ple in●o 〈◊〉 ▪ ma●h 15.14 . th●refore 〈…〉 no● able to teach &c. may not be admitted into the mi●●ste●y . 9 he that ●reachet●●ot ▪ but ●oldeth his peace , murdereth . 10 he t●at preacheth not , i● not 〈◊〉 , and so hee beg●tteth no ●aith in man . 11. in that s. paul requireth that a bishop should be wise , he barreth thos● , that under the name of simplicity , excuse the folly of ministers 12 we condemne all 〈◊〉 ministers , not endued with gifts necessary for a 〈…〉 that should feed his flock . therefore ▪ if a minister mu●● tea●h unto his people all t●at christ hath commanded ; if none may be made ministers , but conditionally , if they be qualified with gi●t● meet for the same ▪ if unpreaching ministers cannot be made without the manifest breach of the commandement of god ; if th●y may not be made ministers , whom the lord refuseth to have ; if every min●ster must have a treasury well furnished ▪ and be able to bring forth of it when need requireth ; if every m●nister mus● have ●kill to see the enemie , and to give warning aforehand how to resist h●m ; if unlearned ministers draw their people to hell a●ter them ; if he that preacheth not , be a murtherer ; if he be not sent , and so doe no good : if hee be barred from the ministery : lastly , if hee be condemned , as not to be in such a place : then must it needs follow , that none may be received into the ministery , but such as be able to teach the truth , and to convince the gain-sayer . many are the arguments that be alleadged to this purpose , and many moe may be alleadged , ( for the whole course of the scriptures tend thereunto ) the testimony of all sorts of writers , is very plentifull for this purpose : yea of the very canon law , ( as the author of the abstract hath learnedly proved ) and yet doe not our prelates rest in the same , but have set themselves ( though in a silly manner ) against it , in this sort that followeth . 1 objection . there must be reading in the church , therefore a reading ministery ▪ whitgift page 252. answ. by that reason we must have an officer for every particular action , for there must be breaking of bread in the church , and powring of water ; but it followeth not , that therefore there must be one , whose office must be only to break bread , or to powre water . 2 objection . it is better to have readers then none , for preachers cannot be had for every congregation . answer . it is not better , for if they had none , they would seeke for him that they should have ; whereas now , they that have a reader only , think themselves in case good enough : but if there be such want of preachers , why are so many of the most diligent and able ones , turned out ? 3 objection . it is impossible to have preachers every where , and such as can be had , must be taken . answer . sometimes you say all is well : and is it now impossible that our state should obey the lords ordinance ; this is the greatest disgrace to it that can be : and yet it followeth not , for no necessity may warrant us , to violate the decrees of the highest . 4 objection . it were uncharitablenesse to turne them out that be bare readers , for so they , their wives and children might beg . answer . this is to sell mens soules for morsels of br●ad : shall wee rather feare the begging of three or foure , then the damnation of a thousand ? but they may be otherwayes provided for ; they need not beg , many of them may returne to their occupations againe . so that all these objections notwithstanding , the conclusion remaineth sure , which is grounded upon so many certaine and unmoveable foundations . the church ought not to be governed by commissaries , and officials , and chancellours . 1 they which are no elders of the church , have nothing to doe in the government of the same , 1 tim. 5.17 . these chancellours , commissaries , and officials , are no elders in the church ; whether we expound elder for a minister , and him also , that is assistant unto the minister in overseeing the church , or for a minister onely as they do : for none of them be ministers , and if they be , they doe not rule in this respect , that they are ministers : therefore the church ought not to be governed by them . 2. they that must governe the church of god , must have a warrant for their so doing , from iesus christ the head of the church : but chancellors , &c. have no warrant so to doe , from iesus christ the head of the church : there●ore the church ought not to bee governed by them . 3. those whose names , offices and practize , bee derived from antichrist , may have nothing to do in the government of the church ▪ for who will suffer his wife to be governed by the master of a 〈…〉 : but the names , offices , and practise of chancell●rs , 〈◊〉 ●nd commissaries be such , which is plaine by this , that they have the●r ground in that filthy dunghill the c●non law : therefore they may have nothing to doe in the government of the church . 4. they that being inferiours , doe proudly tyrann●z● over the●r superiours , ought not to rule the church of god , for it is meet it should be ruled by modest ▪ humble and orderly men : but suc●●re they ( for being inferiours to the ministers of the word , as our adv●rsa●i●s doe confesse , and is plaine also by the canon law they crow over th●m as ●f they were their slaves : ) and if they doe not so 〈◊〉 can doe nothing : therefore they ought not to rule the church of god . 5. they that live by the faults of men , are not fit t● rule the church of god : for they will rather increase off●nces ( that their 〈◊〉 m●y ●ncrease ) then orderly lessen them , as experience ( a●so ) prov●th : but such are all chancellours , commissaries and official● : therefore they ought not to rule the church of god . therefore , if chancellors , commissaries , and officials bee no elders of the church ; if they have no warrant from jesus christ ▪ the head of the church ; if their names , offices , and practize , be derived ●rom antichrist ; if their office compell them ( being inferiours ) to tyrannize over their superiours : if they live onely by the faults and offences of men : then it must needs follow , that the church of god ought not to be governed by them . chap. vii . every officer of the church must be ordained by the laying on of the hands of the eldership , t.c. 2. booke , 1. part . page 274. discip . ecclesiast . fol. 53. they say if ought to be done by the bishop alone , whitgift ▪ page 196. their daily practize doth likewise shew it . the former is proved , and the latter disproved by these reasons follo●ing . 1. as church officers were ordained in the apostles time , so must they be continually , for they did lay the plot , according whereunto the church must be built unto the end : but they were ordained in the apostles time by the laying on of the hands of the eldership , act. 6 6. & 13.3 . therefore the church officers must be ordained by laying on of the hands of the eldership . 2. church officers must bee ordained by them that have warrant from the word , to assure the parties ordained , that they are called of god : onely the elders●ip hath such a warrant , 1 tim. 4 ▪ 14. therefore they ought to be ordained by the eldership . 3. many of the sentences alledged before , out of councels , emperours lawes ▪ histories ▪ and 〈◊〉 writers both old and new , for election not to be by one ▪ but by divers , speake also of ordination , and so are forcible to this purpose . 4. e●agrius came to the office of a b●sh●p unlawfully , because onely paulinus ordained him ▪ contrary to the 〈◊〉 of many canons , which provide , that they should not bee orda●n●d , ●ut by all the bishops of the prov●nce , or ( at the least ●y three . 5. when a b●shop is to be ordai●ed , &c one bishop shall pronounce the blessing ▪ and the rest of the bishops with the elders pr●sent , shall all l●y on their ●ands . 6. when a bishop was to be ordained , the bishops adjoyning did ordaine him . therefore if church officers were ordained in the apostles time , not by one , 〈◊〉 by the e●dership , consi●ting of many ; i● they be to ordaine , that have warrant out of the word , to assure the parties ordained , that they are called of god ; if ordination by one b●sh●p be unlawfull and contrary to many canons of councels ; if the bishops and elders were to lay on their h●●ds : lastly , if the b●shop● adjoyning were to ordai● , 〈…〉 needs follow that church offic●rs are not to be ordained 〈…〉 the laying on of the hands of the eldership . but t●ey fight ha●d aga●nst this , because it s●riketh at a maine pillar of their ●ingdom● , their chiefe grounds be these . 1. object . paul and barnabas ordained elders , where is no mention of an eldership . answ. they are said to ordaine , because they being the chiefe procured it ; so is joshua , 5.3 . said to circumcise , which was the levites office , so say we , the queene hath made a law , and yet not she alone maketh any . 2. ob●ection . though it were so then , yet is it not so required now , no more then the community in the apostles time . answer . there was no more communitie then ( for they that thinke otherwise , are in that point anabaptists ) then is to be required now , so that instance maketh for us . 3. ob●ect . examples are no generall rules to be followed . answ. examples not contrarying any rule , or reason of the scripture , be to be followed , as if they were commandements , so that notwithstanding any thing alledged to the contrary , it remaineth upon the former gro●nds most stedfast , that it belongeth to the eldership to ordain those church officers that are to be imployed in the publike service of god . chap. viii . the ordaining of church officers must be done with humble prayer of the eldersh●p , and the congregation ▪ discip. ecclesi . ●ol 50. their unreverent beginning and proceeding therewith i● a c●rner , is contrary to this : which is condemned by the proofe of our asser●ion by these reasons . 1. we are to behave our selves in these actions , as they by whom we have direction to doe them , have set us an example : but the apostles and elders , when they ordained church officers , did alwayes commend the action to god by prayer , together with those congregations , over which they placed them , act. 6 6 & 14. ●3 . therefore the ordaining of church officers must bee done by humble prayer of the eldership , and congregation . 2. the greater the action i● that is in hand , the more carefull must they bee that have it in hand , to humble themselves by prayer , for the lords assi●tance there●n : bu● the ordaining of church officer● , is an action of most weighty importance : ●h●refore they that have it in hand ( which be the eldership to ordain him , and congregation to receive him ) ought to hum●le themselves in earnest pra●er before hand . 3. they that shall have part in the comfort or discomfort o● the action , are to joyne tog●ther in pr●yer un●o god for the better event , and against the wors● : but the eldership and people , shall both have part in the event ●f t●e action : therefore th●y are to joyne together in humble prayer before hand , &c. chap. ix . church officers must be ordained by laying on of hands ; in this they agree with us , concerning the ceremonie it selfe , albeit neither in the parties by whom , nor on whom it must be conferred . the profit of this ceremonie appeareth in reasons following . 1. that which stirreth up every partie , to pray with more fervencie , is profitable to be used : but such is this ceremonie , for it affecteth the ordainers , when they feele him for whom they pray ; and the ordained when he feeleth a calling and charge from god ( as it were ) sensibly comming upon him , and the congregation , when they see him separated from the rest , by whom they shall reape much comfort or griefe : therefore the use of it is very profitable . 2. that which helpeth forward the party ordained in his care , to walke with a good conscience in his calling , is profitable to be used : such is the imposition of hands , for both it declareth unto him , that he is separated of god for that purpose , and also giveth him hope , that his hand who allotted him thereunto , will alwayes assist him in the course of that calling : therefore it is of a profitable use . 3. that which worketh a more acknowledgment of gods ordinance in the hearts of the people , is profitable to be used : such is the laying on of hands , for it declareth unto them , that the lord hath placed him in that calling over them : therefore it is profitable to be used . therefore seeing the ceremonie of laying on hands is forcible , to increase the fervencie of every partie , when they pray ; seeing it assureth the calling to the party ordained , and giveth him an argument of good hope , for the blessing of god upon him in the course of the same ; and seeing it procureth a more perswasion in the people , that he is allotted unto them from the lord himselfe ; it is evident that it is not a vaine and idle ceremonie ( as many doe imagine ) but of good and profitable use , in all ordinations . chap. x. the lord hath ordained that there should bee one bishop or pastor ( at the least ) president over every congregation , who are of equall authority in their severall charges , and in the generall government of the church , t.c. 1 bo●ke , page 22. & 2 booke , 1 part , page 515. they maintaine contrary unto this , these two . 1. that one may have two or mo charges , and be absent from them , ●s their dispensations and practize doe prove . 2. that one minister may have a soveraigntie and lordship over his ●●llow ministers , which both being disproved , the former ●ssertion will remaine still sure . 1. one man may not have mo charges then be is able in any measure to discharge : no man is able in any measure , to discharge the dutie that is belonging to mo flocks then one , seeing hee cannot preach unto them , both in season and out of season : therefore no man may have more charges then one . 2. that which maketh an open entrance to the enemy to spoyle , cannot be lawfull : for one to have moe charges then one , maketh open entrance for the enemy to spoile , for the woolfe watcheth to devoure , whilest the shepheard is absent : therefore no man may have mo charges then one . 3. the which hath neither precept , nor president for it , either in gods word , or any approved writer , ●ut onely from antichrist , is unlawfull : but such is the having of mo charges th●n one : therefore it is unlawfull . 4. that which declareth a minister to be more desirous of the fleece , then to profit the flocke , that same is unlawfull : but such is the having of moe charges then one , for were it not for the gaine , they would thinke one a burden as heavie as they could beare : therefore it is unlawfull . 5. all the reasons that be alledged in the third chapter , against non-residence , are forcible to this purpose , for if he may not be nonresident , he may not h●ve mo charges , unlesse he be willing to be quartered , that every charge may have a piece of him . he reckoneth them among theeves , and their action to be theevery , condemned by that commandement . therefore , if one man cannot in any tollerable measure discharge mo charges then one ; if to have mo maketh an open entrance to the enemy to spoyle ; if it have neither precept , nor president for it , but onely in the kingdome of antichrist ; if it declare the practizers to be more desirous of the fleece , then to feed the flocke ; if all the reasons that condemne nonresidencie be against it ; lastly , if it be plaine theevery : then must it needs follow , that one may not have two , or mo charges . their objections ( such as they be ) are set downe in the 3 chapter , and the answers unto them . the second proposition that they hold is thi● . one minister may have a sover●igne authoritie , and lordship over his fellow ministers : which is thus disproved . 1. they that have their commission indiff●rently given them , without difference betweene one and another , are of equall authoriti● , and may not be one over another : but such is the commission of all gods ministers indifferently , as appeareth , matth. 28.19.20 . therefore they are of equall authority , and may not have any dominion one over another . 2. that which christ hath directly forbidden , that may not in any case be allowed but is ever unlawfull : but christ hath directly forbidden , that one minister should have dominion over another , matth. ●0 . 25 . luk. 22 25. therefore one minister may not have superioritie or dominion over another . 3. they that may not be lords over the people of god , may much lesse be lords over the ministers , for the ministers be ( in respect of the ministery ) above the people : but a minister may not be lordly over gods people ( as is testified by him on whom they would father the greatest lordlinesse ) 1 pet. 5.3 . therefore one minister may not bee lord , or have superiority over another . 4. it is ordained , and is equall and right , that every mans cause be heard , where the fault was committed : and it is meete to handle the matter there , where they may have both the accusers , and witnesses of the fault ; which sheweth that every minister had authority over his owne flocke , and no other to meddle . 5. bishops , wheresoever they be in all the world , are equall to our bishops , or parish ministers and preachers ; of none it can be said one is lord , another is servant : whatsoever belongeth to the church , belongeth equally to all , saving that some are of better gifts then others , howbeit such gifts cause no inequallitie or lordship in the church . 6 in the apostolike church , the ministers of the word , were none above another , and were subject to no head or president , &c. 7. the honour of a bishop , being taken from the rest of the ministers , and given to one , was the first step to papacie . 8. christ did most severely forbid unto the apostles and their successors , primacie and dominion . 9. equall power and function is given to all ministers of the church , and that from the beginning , no one preferred himselfe before another , saving onely that for order , some one did call them together , propounded the matters that were to be consulted of , and gathered the voyces . therefore , if all ministers have their commission indifferently given unto them , if christ have forbidden , that one minister should have dominion over another ; if no minister may exercise dominion over gods people ; if authoritie to handle controversies , belonged to every severall congregation ; if a bishop and parish minister be all one ; if in the apostles time , no minister was above another ; if the superiority of one above another , was the first step to the papacie ; lastly , if they have equall power and function from the beginning : than must it needs follow , that no minister may have superiority , or exercise dominion over another . their objections hereunto ( so many as are worthy any answer ) be these . 1. object . christ math. 20.25 . forbiddeth onely ambition , and not dominion , as musculus expoundeth it . ans. musculus his judgement appeareth in the 6 and 7 reasons , the place is expounded against superiority by calvin , bulling . zwing . g●alter , hemingi●s , &c. but let it be so expounded : that dominion is am●ition , because it causeth a man to aspire above his ●ellow ministers . 2. object . the greek word signifieth rule with oppression , which is the thing that is forbidden . answ. that is not so , for luk. 22 25. useth the single verbe kurieuein , which signifieth simply to rule : the sonnes of zebedeus desired not to oppresse but to rule , which desire ●e reproved . 3 objection . christ saith not , no man shall be so , but hee that will be so , desiring it . answer . but luke saith , let the greatest be as your servant , and therefore that is but a silly shift . so that their assertions being overthrown , and their objections answered , it remaineth , that we prove yet more directly , that the lord hath ordained , that there should be a bishop resident over every congregation ; which is thus proved . 1 if a bishop and minister be all one , then must there be a bishop in every congrega●ion , for every man will confesse that every congregation ought to have a mi●ister : but a bishop and a minister is all one , as appeareth by this tha● s. paul describeth not one quality for the bishop , but it is also the quality of every good minister ; and also in that hee describeth no other minister but the bishop : therefore there ought to be a bishop in every congregation . 2 s. pauls bishops and his deacons were appointed to one place , as appeareth both in the description of them , and the practise of the apostles : but the deacons were in every congregation , which appeareth , phil. 1.1 . acts 6.2 . that office being needfull every where ; and in that it continued so , longer then the office of bishops , athanasius apol. 2. jerome contra 〈◊〉 , &c. therefore there ought to be a bishop in every congr●●●t●●n . 3 that which paul enjoy●●● to titus , is also to be practised alwayes in the like 〈◊〉 : but he commanded him to ordaine elders in every citie , tit. 1.5 . which are expounded in the next verse to be bishops : therefore there must be a bishop in every congregation . 4 every church should have her communion table , and every church her bishop . 5 where there was found any worthy to be a bishop , there a bishop was appointed , and where there was not to furnish both bishop and preaching el●er ( hee meaneth the doctor ) there the apostles made a bishop , and left the elder . 6 if a bishop runne into a slander , and many bishops cannot suddenly be gathered ; his cause shall be heard of twelve bishops &c. 7 if an elder be accused , hee may call six bishops from the places hard by . s●ories make mention of bishops of little townes , as (a) soti●us bishop of the village cuman : (b) mares , bishop of a sm●ll towne called solicha : (c) gregory , bishop of a small citie , called nazianzum : (d) the bishop of a castle . 9 a minister , that is to say , a bishop , ●nd ( a little after ) the apostle doth plainly teach , that a minister and a bishop i● all one , and ( upon titus ) a bishop and a minister are the same : and ( ad ocea●um ) with the ancient fathers , bishops , and elders were all one . 10 d. barnes ( in his 〈◊〉 article ) saith , i will never beleeve , neither can i ever beleeve , that one man may by the law of god , be a bishop of two or three cities , yea ● a whole country , for that it is contrary to the doctrine of s. paul , who writing to titus , commandeth that ●e should ordaine a bishop in every towne . 11 it is pitie to see how farre the office of a bishop is degenerated from the originall in the scripture ; it was not so in the beginning , when bishops were at the best , at the epistle to titus testifieth , that willeth him , to ordaine in every citie , &c. they know the primitive c●ur●h had no such bishops as we have , untill the time of silvester the first . therefore , if a bishop and a minister be all one ; if bishops were to be where deacons are who were in every congregation ; if paul enjoyne●titus to ordaine bishops in every citie ; and if every church had her b●shop a long time after the apostles , as appeareth by the testimonies of councels , histories , and learned writers , both old and new : t●en mu●● it needs follow , that there ought to be a bishop in every congregation . chap. ii. for the further revealing of the truth , god hath ordained , that there should be in the church doctors , whose office is to be imployed in teaching of doctrine , and is an office different from that of the pastour . the latter part of this proposition , is the thing which especially they doe deny , which is thus prooved to be true . 1. those which the apostle ( in speaking of distinct officers ) doth distinguish one from another , are severall and distinct one from another : but the apostle doth distinguish the pastour and teacher , one from another , rom. 12.7.8 . and ephes. 4.11 . even as he distinguisheth man and woman . gal. 3.28 . see the greek of them both : therefore the office of pastour and doctor are distinct one from another . 2. as are the gifts that adorne offices , so are the officers themselves , for the execution of the office , consisteth in the employing of the gifts : but the gifts of the pastour and doctor are divers , as appeareth 1. cor. 12.8 . and by experience , for some hath an excellent gift in doctrine , and not in application , and others excell in application and exhortation , that ●re very meane , in delivering of doctrine : therefore the office of a pastour and teacher , are distinct one from another . 3. those that are to take a divers course in teaching are divers , and different in their functions , for else why should they be enjoyned to take a divers course : but the pastour is to take one course , and the doctor another , for the one is to direct himselfe principally to exhort , and the other to attend upon doctrine : rom. 12.7 , 8. therefore the office of pastour and doctor , be distinct offices the one from the other . 4. the ecclesiasticall stories ( especially speaking of the church of alexandria ) doe usually make a difference betwixt the bishop and the doctor . 5. cathedrall churches have yet some shew thereof left in them , who ( besides the bishop ) have also one that readeth a lecture in divinity . 6. if the distinguishing of them , make more for the building of the church , then the uniting of them ; then are they to be distinguished , & not made all one : but the form●● is true , as appeareth by this , that hardly is a people brought to asound knowledge of godlines , by him that inst●ucteth in doctrine continually , & as hardly are we stir●ed up to a zealous care of our duetie , th●ugh we be ex●orted contin●ally ; which both should be with lesse continuance , if one man were to performe all : therefore they are to be esteemed distinct offices , and not parts of one office , which one is to performe . therefore , if the apostle paul distinguisheth them one from another ; if god do● usually bestow doctrine and exhortation upon severall persons , where in each is found to excell , and to be no body in the other ; if the pastour be commanded to take one course in teaching , and the doctor another ; if ecclesiasticall stories doe usually distinguish them ; if cathedrall churches have yet some steps left of the distinction ; if to distinguis● them ; maketh more to the building of the church , then to unite them : then must it needs follow , that the office of pastour and doctor be distinct , and different the one from the other . chap. xii . every congregation ought to have elders to see into the manners of the people , and to be assistant unto the ministers , in the government ecclesiasticall . t. c. book 1. pag. 174. disc. fol. 120. which they denie , whitg●ft p. 627. and their practise in keeping them out of the church : but it is proved to be true , by these reasons following . 1. that which the apostles established in every congregation , ought still to continue , seeing the church must be ruled by the same lawes , that it was ruled by then , and needeth as great furtherance now , as it did then : but the apostles established elders in every congregation , act ▪ 14.23 . which cannot be understood of preaching elders onely ; considering that the scarcity of them was such , as paul was constrained to send timothy and titus to great cities , which he could hardly spare , as he often testifieth : therefore ther● ought to be such elders , as are onely to assist in government i● every congregation . 2. those which god hath ordained to help forward the building of the church , ought to be in every congregation , unlesse it may appeare that some congregation needeth not so much helpe , as christ hath appointed : but christ hath ordeined elders in the church , for the helping forward of the building of the church 1 cor. 12.28 . therefore such elders ought to be in every congregation . 3. that which being wanting , the body cannot be entire , that same must be in every congregation : but the elders cannot be wanting , and the church be an entire body rom. 12.8 . which every congregation should be , rom. 12 , 4. therefore there ought to be such elders in every congregation . 5. if the word of god doe describe such elders in the church , then ought they to be in every congregation , which is cleare by this , that every congregation hath need of them , as well as any : and that every congregation must have all the other officers of the church : and that every congregation is of equall dignity in the body of christ : but the word of god describeth unto us such elders . 1. tim. 5.17 . therefore they ought to be in every congregation . 5. there is no church , that can stand without her eldership or councell . 6. it belongeth onely to the bishop to baptize , and the elder and deacon may not do it , but upon the bishops licence . 7. neither elder nor deacon have right , but upon the bishops commandement ( so much as ) to baptize . 8. elders fell away thorough the ambition of the teachers . 9. valerius the bishop did contrary to the custome of the apostolicall churches , in appointing augustine to preach , being but an elder . 10. after that arrius was convicted of haeresie , it was decreed that elders should no more preach . 11. the number of the elders of every church , ought to be encreased , according to the multitude of the people . 12. speaking of the elders that were to assist the minister , he lamenteth , that it is so fallen out of the church , that the name doth scarce remaine . 13. certaine of the people were joyned with the pastour , in the governement of the church , because the pastour was not able to doe all himselfe . 14. there were elders , that did assist the minister , in the government of the church . &c. 15. whitgift confesseth , that in the primitive church , they had in every church certaine seniors , pag. 638. let it then appeare out of the word , to satisfie the conscience , how it may be left out . 16. if the platforme set downe to timothy and tit●s be for all churches , then must elders be in all ; for these elders are there described : but it is a platforme for all churches , and that to the end of the world , 1 tim. 6.14 . therefore they ought to be in every congregation . 17. that which is contained in every minsters commission to teach and practize , must be in every congregation : but the ordination and practize of that office , is in every ministers commission , mat. 28.20 . or else they ordained elders without warrant from christ , which none dare affirme : therefore there must be elders in every congregation . 18. wheresoever a bishop must be , there must also the elder bee , which appeareth by this , that where the one is described , there is the other also : but a bishop must be in every congregation , as i have proved sufficiently in the 10. chap. therefore there ought to be elders in every congregation . 19. if the apostles laboured for uniformitie in the least things , and established in all churches one order , then must there be elders in every congregation , for they were in some , as all men doe confesse : but the former is true , as not onely the view of their practize declareth , but also the apostles expresse words ▪ thus i teach in all churches : therefore the latter is true also , that in every congregation there must be such elders . therefore if the apostles established elders in every congregation ; if christ hath esteemed their helpe needfull to further the building of his church ; if without them a congregation cannot be entire ; if the word of god say that they ought to be in the church ; if it was continued so long after the apostles time : and be approved by the testimony of many very learned , both old and new writers , and confessed by the greatest adversary unto them ; if they be within the compasse of every ministers commission ; if they are to be , wheresoever a bishop must be ; if the apostles established uniformity , even in the meanest thinges ; then must it needs follow , that there ought to be such elders in every congregation , as are to assist the minister in the government of the same . they confesse it was so in the apostles time , but seeme to say somewhat that it cannot be under a christian magistrate thus : 1. object . god hath given the soveraigne authoritie over his church to the christian magistrate , which these elders would abridge . answ. no more then the eldership abridged the soveraigntie of david over israel , for his governement is temporall , and theirs spirituall . 2. object . gualter upon the 1 cor. 5. denieth it to be needfull under a christian magistrate . answer . gualter denieth excommunication under a christian magistrate , hee is as partiall in this argument at whitgift . 3. objection . the prince hath the authority that the elders had . answ. that is no truer , then to say the prince hath authority to preach the word , &c. for these be things , that his high authority must see done , but he may doe none of them himselfe . but there bee many reasons which may bee alleadged , to prove that they are ( at the least ) as necessary under a christian magistrate in these dayes , as they were in the time of the apostles , as namely these : 1. the lesse able that ministers are to direct their people in the waies of godlinesse , the more neede they have of the assistance that god hath allowed them in his word : but ministers are now lesse able ( especially under christian magistrates , when men are overtaken with ease and peace , which quench go●d things ) then they were in the time of the apostles : therefore there is as great ( if not greater ) neede of elders now , then was in the time of the apstoles . 2. if christian magistrates bee to maintaine the order that christ hath set downe for the governement of his church , then must there be elders in it under a christian magestrate , for elders are appointed of 1 cor. 12.8 . but christian magestrates are to maintaine the order that christ hath set downe for the ruling of his church , isai. 49.23 . therefore there must be elders in the church , under a christian magestrate . 3. if the rule of christ cannot bee perpetually observed , tell the church , unlesse there be elders ; then must there bee such under a christian magestrate : but the former is true , for by the church is there meant the seanate of ministers and elders , as shall be proved in the chapter of excommunication : therfore there must be elders , under a christian magistrate . 4. if the whole governement of the church described in the epistles to timothie and titus , bee to bee observed untill the end , then must there bee elders under christian magestrates , for they are contained in those epistles : but the former is true 1 tim. 6.14 . therefore there must be elders under a christian magistrate . 5. where sinners ate more outragious , and the best most subject to waxe cold , there is greatest neede of all the helpes that god hath ordained to punish sinne , and to cherish well doing : but so it is under a christian magistrate especially in the peace of the church , as whitgift confesseth , pag. 643. therefote there is ( at the least ) as great neede of elders ( seeing they are helpers uppointed of god ) under a christian magistrate , as at any other time . therefore if mininisters be lesse able now , then in the apostles time ; if christian majestrates must maintaine the order prescribed by christ ; if else the rule of christ , ( till the chru●ch ) cannot be still observed ; if the whole goverment described by saint paul , must be kept for ever ; lastly if there bee , ( at the least ) as great neede of all the helpes that can be , as ever there was : then must it needes follow , that elders are as necessary in the church under a christian magestrate , as in the time of persecution . chap. xiii . there ought to be in every congregation certaine deacons , endued with those qualities , which the word of god describeth ; whose office is onely in receiving the liberty of the saints , and destributing it unto the needy , t. c. 1 booke , pag. 190. discip. eccles. fol. 119. this assertion hath two branches , which both are gaine said by our adversaries , the first whereof is this . the office of the deacon , consisteth onely in receiving and distributing unto the poore , the liberality of the saints , which they deny whitgift pag. 582. the booke of ordering , &c. that maketh 〈◊〉 a degree of the ministrie : but the proposition being proved true , maketh their opinion and practise appeare false , which is thu● . 1. that wherein stephen and the rest were imployed , is the office of a deacon : for the first institution of them by the apostles , is in that example : but they were onely to attend upon the provision for the poore , acts 6.4 &c. therefore the office of the deacon , is onely to attend upon the distributing the poore , from the libe●alli●y of the saints . 2. that which the apostle maketh an ordinary and distinct office from others in the church , must be attended upon by them , that are in the same office ▪ and not bee mingled with any other ; but the apostle rom. 12.8 . maketh destributing in simplicity , such an office as it is expounded by m. calvin , beza , bucer , martyr . &c. therefore the deacons office must bee attended upon , and consequently , it consisteth onely in dist●●buting , &c. 3 that which the apostles found themselves insufficient for , that can no man now discharge in any tollerable measure , for they were more adorned with gifts , then any be now : but they found themselves insufficient for the ministrie of the word , and destributing unto the poore also , acts. 6.2 . therefore no man can in any tollerable measure , discha●ge the office of a minister and deacon also , and consequently , the deacon is to attend upon distributing onely . 4. if the ministeries of the word bee perfect , without the deacon , then may ●ee not meddle in the same , for how may one lawfully labour , in that wherein there is no neede of him : but such is the ministery of the word , where the severall ministers thereof are named , ephes. 4.11 . wherein the deacon is not contained , as whitgift c●nfesseth , pag. 308. & 309. therefore the deacon may not meddle with the ministry of the word , and consequently must be implyed onely in destributing &c. 5. if there be no qualitie required in the perfect description of the deacon , which is proper to the ministery of the word , then is not be to medle with the same : but the former is true , as appeareth , 1 tim. 3.8 . therefore the latter is true a so , and consequently , hee must attend onely upon distributing , &c. 6. if it belong to the deacons office , to meddle with the minestery of the word and sacraments , then it is greater , then that of the pastor , for that the doing of both , requireth greater gifts then the one : but it is not a greater , but inferiour office to the pastor , as appeareth by all those places , wherein they are described , that the deacon is described after the bishop : therefore his office is not to meddle with both , and consequently hee must attend upon distributing , &c. 7. deacons are ministers of tables , and not of holy things . 8. in the ministers sicknesse , the deacons shall roade the homilies of the fathers . 9. the deacons have neede of great wisedome , although the preaching of the word bee not committed unto them : and further , it is absurd that they should doe both the office of preaching , and caring for the poore , concidering that they bee not able to doe both thorowly . 10. although the ( goods of the chvrch increasing ) there were besides the deacons , subdeacons and archdeacons , and yet the deacons remained still in their charge for the poore , and were not as yet mingled with the bishoppes or priests , and with the order of them which taught . 11. the office of deaconshippe , was religiously kept in the chvrch , untill it was driven out by antichrist . 12. this office must of necessitie bee restored as it is described , acts the sxth , if england ( for hee speaketh it in the behalfe of our church ) will receive the discipline of christ . 13. speaking of these deacons , lamenteth that this order , is so fallen out of the church that the name doth scarse remaine . 14. describing the deacons of the apostles time , saith , that wee after their example , ought to have the like . 15. the office of distributing the goods of the church , is an ordinary function in a chvrch lawfully constituted ; the which section thirty , hee calleth the deaconship . therefore if stephen and the rest were imployed , onely in distributing the goods of the church ; if the apostle maketh the deacons office , an ordinary and distinct office from all others in the church ; if the apostles were not sufficient for the ministery of the word , and distributing ; if the ministeries of the word be perfect without the deacon ; if in the description of the deacon , no qualitie be required , that is proper to a minister of the word ; if to deal in both would make the deacon a g●eater officer then the pastor ; if the councels , ancient writers , and the sound writers of latter times , do declare that the deacons were to be wholly imployed in the distributing of the goods of the church ; then must it needs follow , that his office is not to meddle with any part of the ministery of the word and sacraments , but to attend onely upon the distributing of the liberalitie of the church , unto them that stand in need thereof . their objections hereunto , be these two that follow . 1 objection . philip one of the seven deacons did preach , act. 8.8 . therefore deacons may preach the word . answer . philip was a deacon of the church at jerusalem , while they abode together , but now he was not any more so , but an evangelist , as he is ever tearmed after , by vertue of which office he did preach . 2 object . steven , being a deacon , preached , act. 7.2 . answ. he preached not ; for all that is there , was but his apology at the seat of judgement , which every man in the like case may do , and which many of the martyrs have done . so that the former proposition being true , upon the grounds alledged , notwithstanding these objections , we are to proceed to the second , which is this . there ought to be such deacons ( as are described in the former proposition ) in every congregation , which is thus proved . 1 that office which every congregation hath need of , ought to be in every congregation : but every congregation hath need of the deacons office , which appeareth by this , that they have poore to provide for ( or else they must regard the necessitie of others ) and the liberalitie of others to distribute : therefore deacons ought to be in every congregation . 2 that which is indefinitely appointed for the good of the church , belongeth unto every congregation , as well as to any one : but such is the appointment of the deacons . 1. tim. 3.8 . therefore there must be deacons in every congregation . 3 every church ought to have their office of deaconship . 4 all the reasons ( or the most of them ) that are alledged , chap. 10. for a bishop in every congregation , and chap. 12. for elders in every congregation ; are forcible hereunto . therefore , if there be the like need of deacons in one congregation , that is in another ; if they be appointed indefinitely for the good of the church ; if every church must have their office of deaconship , and l●●tly , if there be like reasons to prove them belong to every church , that be for bishops and elders : then must it needs follow , that there ought to be deacons in every congregation . chap. xiiii . there ought to be in every congregation , an eldership , consisting of a pastor or pastors ▪ doctor ( if there be any ) and elders , whose authoritie christ hath ordained to be perpetuall in his church , to govern the same onely by the rules of gods word : t.c. 1. book , pag. 175. discip. ecclesiast . 123. which containeth these 3. particular propositions , defended by us , and gainsaid by the bb. and their adherents . 1 the eldership ought to be in every congregation . 2 the office of the eldership is perpetuall . 3 the church must be governed , onely by the rules of gods word . the first is denied by them , whitgift pag. 627. and by their practise , in tying the government of many churches to the bb. sea , it is thus proved . 1 whatsoever chr●st hath ordained , as a means , to keep men in obedience to the gospel , that same must be in everie congregation , for particular men are in particular congregations : but christ hath ordained the eldership for that end , as appeareth , matth. 18.15 . &c. where chrysost ▪ expoundeth : tell the church : that is , saith he , the governours of the church : therefore the eldership ought to be in every church . 2 where all sorts of elders ought to be , there must be also the joyning of their offices in one , for the good of that congregation over which they are placed : but all sorts of elders ought to be in every congregation , as is proved in the 10. chap. for bishops , the 12. for elders , &c. therefore there must be an eldership in every congregation . 3 if no particular congregation have greater priviledges given thereunto by the word of god then others have , then must there either be no eldership at all ( which is false , in that elders are proved to be by the word of god in the church ) or else it must be in every congregation : but every congregation is of like priviledge , which appeareth by this , that it is a perfect body of it self : therefore there must be an eldership in everie congregation . 4 the same warrant that is in the word of god , for to have an eldership in one place , is a warrant for it in all ; for the word of god tyeth it , not to churches in cities , but indefinitely to the church : but there is warrant for it out of the word to be some where , as appeareth by this , tha● the apostles are said to establish it , and make mention of it : therefore it must be in every congregation . therefore , if the eldership be ordained by christ , as a means to keep men in obedience unto the gospel ; if all sorts of elders must be in every church ; if every congregation be of equall priviledges ; lastly if there be the like warrant for it in every church , that is in any : then must it needs follow , that there ought to be an eldership in every congregation . whatsoever is objected against this , that hath any shew in it , is answered in the 12. chap. of elders . the office of the eldership is ordained by christ to be perpetuall , and ordinarie for the government of his church , t. c. 1. book , 177. denied by them ▪ whitgift , 627. and by their practice in keeping it out : but the truth of it appeareth by these reasons that do follow . 1 if the causes why christ would have an eldership in his church be perpetuall , then must also the thing it self be perpetuall : but the causes are perpetuall , which be to govern the church by the rules of his word , and that ecclesiastically : therefore the eldership is perpetuall . 2 if christ be the author of the eldership , and left it by the apostles to be established in the church , then it is perpetuall ; for his commission given to the apostles , is to be observed unto the end of the world : but christ is the author of it , as appeareth both by his giving of the gifts for the particular members thereof , and the whole body of it ; as also in that the apostles did establish it in the church , who went not from their commission , 1. cor. 11.12 . therefore the eldership is perpetuall . 3 whatsoever is the commandment of god , once delivered by him , is never repealed again , and to be acknowledged of every spirituall man ; that same is to be received by the church of god to be perpetuall : but such is the government of the church by pastors , doctors , and elders , and so of the whole eldership , as appeareth in that they are all mentioned in the writings of s. paul , which are so esteemed : 1. corinth . 14.37 . therefore the government of the church by an eldership is perpetuall . 4 that whose severall parts is perpetuall , and which hath perpetuall gifts given , for the furnishing thereof for ever ; that same must needs be perpetuall : but the severall parts of the eldership , as pastor , doctor ▪ and elders , be perpetual , as is proved in the 10. & 12 chap. therfore the eldership is perpetual . 5 whatsoever is grounded upon the generall commandments , and rules of the scriptures , that same is perpetual : but the governing of the church by the eldership , is such , as hath partly been proved in election and ordination , and execution of the severall church officers , which is the greatest part of government , and shall further appear , in the censures of the church hereafter : therefore the government of the church by the eldership , is perpetuall . 6 whatsoever manner of government hath sufficient power , and that from god , to begin , continue , and strengthen , both the governors of the church in their callings , and the people in the course of obedience unto christ ; that same government is to be perpetuall : but such is the government by the eldership , as appeareth by this , that the apostles used no other : therefore the eldership is to be perpetuall . 7 that government which the 12 apostles , and paul ▪ before they consulted together , did uniformly ag●●e in , that same must needs be of god , and consequently perpetuall , unlesse the repealing of it do appear : but such is the government by the eldership , ( for all the adversaries thereunto , confesse that it was in the apostles time : ) therefore it is perpetuall . 8 whatsoever hath the same grounds , that the preaching of the wo●d and ministration of the sacraments have , the same is perpetuall : but such is the government of the eldership , for it is grounded upon the commandments of christ ▪ and practise of the apostles : therefore it is perpetuall . 9 that which hath the like grounds to be perpetuall , that the apostles , prophets , and evangelists , had to be for a time , the same is perpetuall : but such is the government of the church by an eldership , which appeareth by this , that they are therefore ceased , because their gifts of immediate calling , &c. be gone , and the gifts of these , joyntly and severally do remain : therefore it is perpetuall . 10 whatsoever is the perpetuall and ordinarie remedie to cure diseases of the church , and strengthen the health of the same , that same is perpetuall : but such is the government by the eldership , as appeareth by the necessitie , and profit of the severall offices thereof , and of this , that we are still to observe in causes of extremities : tell the church , matth. 18.17 . therefore it is perpetuall . 11 that government which was in the church appointed of god under the law , and continued ( in respect of the substance ) by christ and his apostles , and bettered ( in respect of the accedents ) by them , that same is perpetuall : but such is the government by the eldership , as appeareth in the 12. reason of the 1 chap. therefore it is perpetuall . 12 if there be any reason why this government should be alterable ( being once set in the church by christ ) it is either in respect of the extraordinarie offices ceased , or the addition of the magistrate : but not of the former , because the church hath never had any need of extraordinary gifts , but god hath given them , and so will he ever : nor of the latter , for that the magistrates office is to defend the building of the church by that order which christ hath set downe , and not to alter any thing therein : therefore it is perpetuall . 13 either this government is the best and perpetuall , or els there is none , and so christ should be thought to have left his church without a government , which is disproved in the 7 and 8 reasons in the first chap. for this was once established by christ , and so was no other : but some government must needs be the best and perpetuall : therefore this is perpetuall . 14 no man may justly forbid ( speaking of the church-government ) to returne to the old constitution of the church of god , and to receive it before the custome of men . 15 experience teacheth this order ( speaking of the church government ) was not for one age , but necessary to all ages . 16 though the common-wealth change her government , yet the church must keepe hers still . 17 lamenteth , that some were found among them that are esteemed forwardest , which would not have the same discipline used now adayes , that was in the apostles times , objecting the difference of times and men . 18 the apostles have written these lawes , ( speaking of discipline ) not for a day , or for the first age , but to endure for all times to come ; and therefore have ratified them with a most earnest obtestation : 1 tim. 6.14 . that these commandements should be kept untill the day of the lord . therefore , if the causes of once ordaining an eldership , be perpetuall , if christ be the author of it , and left it in the church by the apostles ; if it be gods commandement , not yet repealed ; if the parts of it , and gifts for it be perpetuall ; if it be grounded upon the generall commandements and rules of the scriptures ; if it have sufficient power from god , to begin , continue , and confirme a church ; if it was agreed upon by the twelve apostles and paul , before they met together ; if it have the same grounds with the preaching of the word ; if it have as good grounds to be perpetuall as the apostles , &c ▪ to be for a time ; if it be the perpetuall remedy against all the diseases of the church ; if it was under the law , and inriched by christ and his apostles under the gospell ; if it be neither alterable in respect of the extraordinary offices ceased , nor the magistrate added to the church ; if it be the onely government , that challengeth authoritie from god ; if no man may justly forbid it , if it be necessary for all times ; if the common-wealth may change her government , but not the church ; if the difference of times and men be nothing against it ; lastly ▪ if the rules that the apostles gave for it , be confirmed with a charge , to be kept untill the comming of christ : then must it needs follow , that the government of the church by an eldership , ought to be perpetuall . they object , that many inconveniences would follow upon this government , which are severally to be answered . 1 objection . by this every parish shall follow their seniors , and then there will be so many elderships , so many divers fashions , seeing one may not meddle with another . answer . the government desired is uniforme for every church , and admitteth no change , no not in outward ceremonies , without a synode of the choyce men of severall elderships . 2 objection ▪ if they being all meane men , chuse an earle , he may not refuse , but be at their bo●k and commandment . answer . no man that is chosen is compelled to an office against his will , but he that despiseth to consult with others in gods matters , because they be poore , reproacheth god that made them , pro. 17.5 . 3 objection . it overburdeneth the parish , to provide for the nourishment of so many church-officers . answer . it is not necessary that they should provide for any moe of them , saving those that are exercised in the ministery of the word , unlesse any of the rest may need the liberalitie of the church . 4 objection . it bringeth in a new popedome and tyranny into the church . answer . it is blasphemie to tearme the government of christ so , because we refuse the tyranny of the pope , shall we therefore doe what we list , and ●o● yeeld obedience to the scepter of christ . 5 objection . it is a kinde of donatisme to challenge such authoritie over princes . answer . and it is flattery to suffer princes to do what they list ; this is the objection of gualter , who is a professed enemy to discipline . 6 objection . it taketh away princes authoritie in causes ecclesiasticall . answer . no more than it did from david in his time , nor so much as the bb. doe now ▪ for the prince requireth but this , to see the church well ordered , which the eldership alloweth and craveth . 7 objection . it transformeth the state of the common-wealth , into a meere popularitie , and will alter the government thereof . answer . it neither transformeth nor altereth any thing in it , for let it be shewed what damage would come by this discipline to any magistracy , from the princes throne , to the office of the headborough . 8 objection . it will breed contention and partialitie in judgement . answer . where can be greater contention than the bb. maintaine for their kingdome , or greater partialitie than in them , to their kinsfolks , servants , sycophants , &c. 9 objection . it will be contemned , and so good order neglected . answer . none ever deserved more contempt , than the bb. and their officers doe , for all their pompe : but god whose ordinance it is , will procure sufficient awe unto it ; mark how these objections stand together , in the fourth it was tyranny , and here it is too contemptible ; these be contrary . 10 objection . all alterations be dangerous . answer . never ( where we change from the obedience of antichrist , to the service of the living god ) was it ever dangerous to amend things amisse , by that course which is described of god : if it were , let the particular of it appeare , this might well have beene stephen gardiners reason for popery , in the time of king henry the eight . the church must be governed onely by the rules of gods word , this is in effect , the proposition of the first chapter , whereunto all those reasons there alledged may be referred ; there is advouched generally , the certain grounds of the whole discipline , against the imagined libertie left to the church : here is affirmed the particular direction of the church-government , by the authoritie of the eldership , to proceed according to the rules of gods revealed will , and not by that cursed and monstrous cannon law , which is made manifest unto us by these reasons . 1. all governours are to execute their authoritie , by the same warrant from which they have it : but the governours of the church of god , have their warrant to be gove●nours onely from the word , 1 cor. 12.28 . therefore they must govern● the church onely by the word . 2. the church is to be governed by that which the ministers may teach unto the same , for they are taught to the end that they may obey , and so be governed by the same : but the ministers may teach nothing but the word of god . 1 cor. 11.23 . therefore the church is to be governed onely by the word of god . 3. that which maketh the church obedient unto christ , must be the direction whereby it is to be governed : onely the word of god maketh the church obedient unto christ : therfore it is to be governed by the rules of gods word . 4. every kingdome or houshold , must be governed onely by the lawes of the king , or orders of the housholder : the church is the kingdome and house of god , and his word is the onely law that he hath given for the same : therefore it must be governed onely by the word of god . 5. that which was ordained to destroy the church of god , cannot be a good rule to governe the same by : but such is the cannon law , for it was ordained to strengthen the kingdome of antichrist ▪ abstract . therefore it cannot be a good rule to direct the church by , and consequently , it must be governed by the word , for no other rule is offered unto us , but the one of these twaine . 6. that which was invented by the dragon , that persecuteth the woman and her childe , that same cannot be good for the church , which is that woman : but such is the cannon law ▪ for it was invented by antichrist , which is that dragon : therefore it cannot be good for the ruling of the church , and consequently , &c. 7. that which strengtheneth the power of darknesse and ignorance , cannot be good to guide them , that must walk in light and knowledge : but the cannon law strengtheneth the power of darknesse and ignorance , for it increaseth popery , as appeareth by this , that there is scarce an officer towards it , in these dayes of knowledge , but he is a papist : therefore it cannot be good to guide the church of god . 8. that which destroyeth the church of god , cannot be good to rule the same : but the cannot law destroyeth it , for it crosseth every faithfull minister in the discharge of his dutie , and every go●d christian , walking in the wayes of godlinesse , and nippeth in the head every good action , as experience teacheth us : therefore it cannot be a good rule to governe the church by . 9. that which hath bred moe trayterous papists in england , than the seminaries at rom● and rhemes ▪ that same cannot be good to governe the church of god : but such is the cannon law , for it hath kept out discipline , nourished ignorance , and fostered superstition and popery , in all estates of people , that never came at those seminaries : therefore it cannot be a good rule to governe the church of god by . 10. that which nourisheth the hope of antichrist to returne hither againe , cannot be good to direct in the government of the church : but such is the cannon law , for it keepeth the cages for those uncleane birds ; as archb. and l. bb. seas , arches , cathedrall churches , &c. therefore it cannot be a good rule for the direction of the church . 11. that which all the churches have cast off , as unfit for the government of the church , cannot be good for the same : but all the churches , that have forsaken the pope ( yea they that have not received the discipline of christ wholly ) have cast off the cannon law : therefore it cannot be good for the same . 12. yea , we our selves mislike it , as appeareth by a statute made under edw. 6. therefore , if governours are to rule by the same authoritie whereby they are governours ; if the church must be governed , by that which the ministers may teach ; if the word of god onely , make the church obedient unto christ ; if every kingdome must be ruled by the lawes of their king ; and if the cannon law be ordained to destroy the church ; if it was invented to persecute the church ; if it strengthen the power of darknesse and ignorance ; if it kill the church of god ; if it breed moe traiterous papists , than the seminaries at rome and rhemes ; if it nourish the hope of antichrists returne : lastly , if all the churches that have forsaken the pope , have cast it off also ; yea , if we our selves doe mislike it : then must it needs follow , that the church ought to be governed , onely by that golden rule of gods word , & not by that leaden lump of the cannon law . chap. xv . the office of the church-government , is meere ecclesiasticall , and therefore the governours of the church may not meddle , but onely in church-matters ; as for example , vocation , and abdication , deciding of controversies , in doctrine and manners , so far as appertaineth to conscience , and the church censures , t.c. book 1. pag. 206. discip. eccle. 126. but they thinke that church-governours , may also meddle in civill causes : whitegift pag. 749. and their practice , that take upon them to be councellers of state , to judge civilly , as punish with imprisonment , &c. but this is disproved , and so the former proved by these reasons . 1. that which our saviour christ refused , because it belonged not unto him , ruling and teaching the church , that same is not lawfull for any ecclesiast . person to doe : but christ refused to divide the inheritance , luk. 12.14 . onely because he came to build a spirituall kingdome ▪ for otherwise he being god , had authoritie over all things : therefore it is not lawfull for ecclesiasticall persons to be judges of civill causes . 2. that which was forbidden the apostles , is unlawfull for every ecclesiasticall officer , for they were the chiefe under christ , and had ( after a sort ) all offices in themselves , untill they could plant them in others : but such dominion was forbidden them , as the kings of the nations , and other civill magistrates have , luk. 22.28 which is , to rule civilly : therefore they may not exercise any civill authoritie . 3. if necessary duties are to be left , rather than our duties to the church should not be thorowly discharged , then may not a church officer deale in civill jurisdiction , which is lesse necessary unto him : but the former is true , as appeareth by the words of christ , to him that would have buried his father , luke 9.59.60 . therefore they may not exercise any civill authoritie . 4 if he that hath an office must attend upon it , then may he not meddle in another , for he cannot attend them both at once : but the former is true , rom. 12.7 . therefore may no church-officer , meddle with temporall jurisdiction . 5 as the souldier is in his warfare , so are church officers , in the ruling of gods church : but the souldier entangleth not himself in the things of this life , because they are of another nature to his warfare ; which place cyprian alledgeth against a minister , that became an executor to his friends will : therefore church-officers may not meddle with civill-officers , because they are of another nature , then his calling . 6 those things that in themselves are of contrarie qualitie , cannot concur in one subject : but the governments of the church and common-wealth be such , not onely in this , that they are the next speciall members of one generall , but also , in that the one is spirituall , and the other temporall , the one respecteth the soul , and the other the body . therefore they cannot be in one man together , and consequently , &c. 7 if the government of the church , both in every particular mans office , and in the generall eldership , be a matter of great weight , and the ability of man , very small in every good action , then may not a church-officer meddle in another calling , whereby he is made lesse able to discharge his dutie : but the former is true , as all men may see , that look into the word of god , what is required of such men , and know by the same word , the manifold infirmities and untowardnesse of man : therefore the latter must needs be true also . 8 if the apostles ( who were the most able of all others ) found themselves unfit for two offices , which were both ecclesiastical ; then is the best church-governour unfit for two , which be of more difference one from another , as be the government of the church and commonwealth : but the former is true , as appeareth , act. 6.2 . therefore the latter must needs be true also . 9 that which we justly reprove in the papists , must needs ( if we do like ) be found more unlawfull and intolerable in our selves : but we justly reprove the papists , for having in their hands both the swords , that is , the ecclesiasticall and civill jurisdiction : therefore it is more intolerable being found in any of us . 10 if it be lawfull for an ecclesiasticall person , to exercise the office of the civill magistrate , then ( on the contrary ) it is lawfull for the civill magistrate , to exercise the offices of ecclesiasticall persons , for there is as good reason for the one , as the other ▪ but the latter is unlawfull ; for who would like of any l. major , to step into the pulpit and preach , &c. therefore the first is unlawfull also . 11 they may not intangle themselves with worldly offices , but attend upon their ecclesiasticall affairs . 12 none of the clarks or clergie , shall receive any charge of those which are under age ▪ the cause of that decree , is there said to be , for that there were certain ministers , that were stewards to noblemen ; and in the 7. canon , that none of them should receive any secular honours . 13 the bb. shall onely attend unto prayer , reading and preaching . 14 he bringeth divers reasons to prove , that bb. may neither usurpe , nor take ( being offered unto them ) any civill office . 15 he sheweth how the offices are to be distinguished , and in what sort it is said , that the fathers dealt in the things of this life , and how the corporall punishments by the apostles were particular and extraordinarie . 16 when both the offices meet in one man , the one hindreth the other , so that he that exerciseth the one , cannot minister the other . 17 there is no man so wise and holy , which is able to exercise both the civill , and ecclesiasticall power , and therefore he that will exercise the one , must leave the other . therefore , if christ refused to judge in temporall causes , because it belonged not to his office ; if civill dominion was forbidden the apostles ; if necessarie duties are rather to be left undone , then our diligence in the matters of the church should be lessened ; if he that hath an office , must attend upon it ; if we may not be intangled with any hindrance ; if the civill and ecclesiasticall functions , be of contrary natures ; if every office in the church , be more then any one can perfectly discharge ; if the apostles found themselves unfit for two offices of like nature ; if we justly reprove the papists for their two swords ; if a magistrate may not preach ; if they may not meddle with worldly offices , nor be tutors to orphans , but attend onely unto the ministery of the word , &c. if they may neither usurpe , nor take ( being offered ) any civill office ; if they be to be distinguished to severall persons , or else one hindreth the other ; lastly , if none be able to execute both , then must it needs follow , that ecclesiasticall officers may not bear civill offices : and consequently the office of the church-government , is meer ecclesiasticall . their objections hereunto be these . 1 objection . it countenanceth and maintaineth religion , to have civill authoritie . answ. it is ( in deed ) the papists reason for their two swords , which m. calvin confuteth : instit. book 4. cap. 11. sect. 9. 2 obj●ction . it is good to punish vice by corporall punishment , that gods word may be the better obeyed . ans. it is good to preach gods word to men that they may obey their prince for conscience sake ; may the magistrate therfore preach ? we may not do every thing that is good , but onely that which is agreeable to our callings . 3 object . eli and samuel , were both priests and judges . answ. they were extraordinary ( for god separated those two offices in moses , and gave the one unto aaron ) and so was eliahs killing of the false prophets ▪ and christs whipping of the buyers and sellers out of the temple . 4 object . peter killed ananias , therefore bb. may have prisone . ans. it was by his word onely , and not by any civill punishment , if they can do the like ▪ peters example will serve their tu●n● , if not , then must it be ( with the former ) extraordinarie . chap. xvi . the placing and displacing of church-officers , appertaineth unto the eldership . this is proved in the 7. chap. & their objections are there answered for the first part , which is the placing : but the latter part is to be cleared by some moe reasons , because the bb. do displace the best ministers at their pleasure , which is proved to be a most wicked action , by these reasons . 1 those that are called unto the ministery by the lord from heaven , and outwardly by the means of men , so long as they are blamelesse in doctrine and conversation 1. tim. 3.10 . cannot be displaced ▪ without hainous wickednesse against the manifest wil of god : but such are the ministers that the bb. do daily displace , as they confesse themselves , when ( even ) in their sermons they justifie their doctrine , in saying that they differ onely in outward rites ; and as their greatest enemies will say , when they are asked of such mens lives : therefore they cannot be displaced without great wickednesse . 2 those that are carefull to discharge the dutie of gods ministers , both in teaching ▪ and giving example to their flocks , cannot be displaced without great impietie : such are these ministers , that are daily displaced , as appeareth by this , that they preach more diligently then any other , and that they follow not the course of the world , in adding living unto living , but many of them ( being as worthy for their gifts , as the worthiest ) live poorely , rather then they will want the comfort of a good conscience : therefore they cannot be put to silence without great sin . 3 to deprive gods people of their spirituall comfort , is a grievous and horrible wickednesse : to put such to silence as are before mentioned , is to deprive gods people of their spirituall comfort : which if any man will denie , all the godly where such a one dwelleth , shall tell him he lieth : therefore to displace such ministers , is a hainous and horrible wickednesse . 4 that which giveth occasion to the weake to stumble and fall away from the gospel , is a hainous and horrible sin : but such is the displacing of those ministers , as appeareth by this , that many doubt whether that which he hath taught be true , whom the professors of the gospel do display , and by this , that many who had made good beginnings , by the discontinuance of their teachers , do fall away : therefore to displace those ministers , is a hainous and horrible sin . 5 those whose labours god doth blesse , cannot be displaced without fighting against god , and consequently great impietie : but such are th●se ministers that the bb. do daily displace , as all that love the gospel in every countrey can witnes : therefore to displace them is great impiety . 6 that action which giveth the common enemy just cause to rejoyce , and hope to get the victory , is a hainous and horrible offence : but such is the displacing of those ministers , as appeareth in every countrey , where such ministers are displaced , and such enemies do dwell : therefore to displace such , is a hainous and horrible offence . 7 that action that causeth the doers thereof to be esteemed enemies to the gospel , must needs be a hainous sin : but such is the putting of those ministers to silence , for it maketh the people that have any love to religion , think that they are not of god in so doing , for , say they , he that loveth christ , cannot crosse the course of the gospel as these men do : therefore the displacing of them is a hainous sin . 8 that which letteth in more wickednesse at once , then the diligent preaching of the word could drive out in divers yeers , must needs be a hainous sin : but such is the displacing of these ministers : for , prophaning of the sabbath , and all disorder , cometh into a congregation the same day that such a minister , that hath long laboured against it is displaced , as experience in such places proveth : therefore to displace such ministers is a hainous sin . 9 that which interrupteth the course of the gospel , without warrant either from gods word , or the laws of the land , is a hainous and horrible sin : such is the displacing of those ministers , as is proved in all the writings on our side ; and lastly , in the answer to d. bridges : therefore to displace such ministers , is a hainous and horrible sin . therefore if the ministers that be usually displaced , be called of god ; if they discharge the dutie of good ministers , both in doctrine and life ; if the displacing of them , be to deprive gods people of their spirituall comfort ; if it give occasion to some to doubt of the gospel , and to fall away ; if god give a blessing unto their labours ; if the displacing of them give the enemy matter to rejoyce , and hope to overcome ; if it c●●se the displacer● to be esteemed enemies to the gospel ; if it let in more wickednesse in one day , then preaching can throw out in many yeers ; if it interrupt the course of the gospel , without warrant either from the word of god , or laws of the land ; th●n must it needs follow , that the displacing of those ministers is a most hainous , and horrible sin against the lord . chap. xvii . the eldership is to admonish every one , by whom offence appeareth unto them to grow in the church : there is no question between us , about admonition it self , but this they deny , that the execution of any discipline ( and therefore of this point ) belongeth unto the eldership ; which point is proved in the severall chapters going before : so that i need not say any thing of this , saving with ( a reason or twain ) to shew the necessitie and benefit of it in the church of god . 1 that which private men offended , are commanded to seek unto for the redresse of the offender , is a necessarie , and an ordinarie way for the amendment of them that do offend in the church of god : but such is the admonition of those that are in authoritie , and carry the name of the church , matth. 18.15 . see chap. 14. and the 1. proposition of the same : therefore admonition in such cases by the eldership , is a necessarie and ordinarie way , for their amendment that do offend . 2 that which is more available to bring the offender to repentance , than private admonition ▪ either by one , or moe , that same is very profitable and necessarie in the church of god : but such is the publike admonition by the governours of the church , as appeareth by this , that christ maketh it a remedie , when the other two will not prevail , matth. 18.15 . therefore it is verie profitable and necessarie in the church of god . 3 that which maketh men more afraid to offend , then an● admonition that private men can give , is profitable and necessarie in the church of god : but such is the eldership , before whom men know they shall be brought if they do not amend : therefore it is very profitable and necessarie in the church of god . 4 that which hath a greater promise to do good , then private admonition , is very necessarie in the church of god : but such is the admonition that is given by the eldership , because it prevaileth when the former doth not : therefore it is profitable in the church of god . 5 that without which , all duties of charity cannot be exercised towards sinners , is needfull to be in the church of god : but without admonition by the eldership , all duties of charitie cannot be exercised towards sinners : therefore it is needfull to be in the church of god . 6 that which would bridle the outragious sins of some , and keep in the derision and mockerie , that private admonitions do receive , is needfull to be in the church of god : but this would admonition by the eldership do ; for if men knew that they should answer unto the church for their ill dem●●nour , to them that rebuke them for sinning ▪ they would refrain ( at least for fear ) from such kinde of outrage : therefore it is needfull to be in the church of god . therefore seeing publike admonition before the eldership is to be sought , by those that are offended , and cannot be satisfied ; seeing it is more available then private admonition ; seeing it maketh men more afraid to offend ; seeing it hath a greater promise ; seeing without it all duties of charitie , cannot be exercised towards the sinner ; lastly seeing it would bridle the outragious sins of many ; therefore it must needs follow , that it is very profitable , and necessarie to be in the church of god . chap. xviii . those that be not reclaimed from their faults by admonition , are by the eldership to be suspended from the lords supper , or being officers of the church , from the execution of their office , untill they do either give good testimonie of their amendment , or just cause to be further proc●●ded against . neither is there any controversie betwixt them and us , about this point ; saving that ( as in the former ) they will denie it to appertain to the eldership , which is proved before . i will therefore ( for their understanding that desire direction in the truth ) first , shew that it is a course that hath warrant in the scripture● ; secondly , that it is of very profitable use in the church of god : the first is thus proved . 1 whatsoever is enjoyned , as a dutie to be done by every christian , if he leave it undone , he is to be compelled by the governours of the church to do it , luke 14.17.23 . but if a mans brother have any thing against him , and he make no conscience to leave his gift there , and be first reconciled , mat. 5.24 . he is to be compelled to do it : therefore separation from the lords supper is warra●ted by the word . 2 if that commandment of christ , matth. 7 5. give not that which is holy unto dogs , can neither be properly understood of them , that were never of the church , nor them that be excommunicated ; then it is a warrant for such separation of the unworthy , and consequently , that separation is warranted in the word : but the former is true , as appeareth by this , that the meanest of the jews did know , that holy things belonged to neither of them , and so the commandment had been needlesse : therefore suspention is warranted by the word . 3 if there be sinners that are not to be excommunicated , and yet it were offensive to give them the lords supper , then is this course warranted by the word , for else should christ have left his church destitute of direction , in common and usuall difficulties , which is proved in the first chapter to be otherwise : but such s●●ners there are as the notorious sinner repenting ; men mainly suspected of notorious transgressions , &c. therefore suspention hath his warrant in the word . 4 the course that god prescribed in the shadow , for corporall purifyings , must in the body ( in respect of the substance ) be observed in the spirituall clensing of every member of the church : but many were separated from the publike sacrifices for a season , by reason of their corporall uncleannesse , who , yet were not worthy to be excommunicated ▪ therefore must also some be kept from the lords supper for a season , who yet appeare not so hainously to have sinned , as to deserve excommunication . 5. the church cannot without great offence , suffer one that hath fallen into some open sinne , or that is vehemently s●spected , to have hainously offended , continue in the administration of any publike function : but the church cannot justly displace such a man at the first , making shew of repentance , or standing upon his purgation : therefore he must be separated for a time . 6. that which was commanded under the law to be done to the priest , that was uncleane in body , or suspected to be a leaper ; that same must much more under the gospell , be done unto the minister , or other church-officer , that hath sinned , or is suspected to have committed a great sinne . but such a priest was to be separated from offering of sacrifices for a certaine time : therefore much more must the like be done to a church-officer in the like case . therefore , if the church be to compell a private man to doe his dutie ; if , give not holy things to dogges , be understood of them within the church ; if there be sinners that cannot without offence be admitted to the lords supper , and yet deserve not excommunication ; if for corporall uncleannesse under the law , they were to abstaine a certaine time ; and if the church cannot without great offence , suffer him that hath committed an open sinne ( though he repent ) or that is vehemently suspected of a notorious sinne , continue in the execution of his office , untill the congregation be satisfied ; lastly , if the priest that was uncleane , or suspected of leprosie , might not offer sacrifices : then is it plaine , that both the separation of some men from the lords supper , and other from the execution of their publique function for a time ; is a thing warranted by the word of god . the latter part , which is that this kinde of suspention hath a profitable use in the church of god , is thus proved . 1. that which keepeth the godly in more carefull obedience , and keepeth in the hypocrites , that they breake not out , is very profitable for the church of god : but such is the use of the separation from the lords supper , and from executing publike function in the church : therefore it is profitable in the church of god . 2. that which removeth ( even ) the appearance of offence , from the church of god , is very profitable for the same : but such is the separation : therefore it is profitable for the church of god . 3. that which declareth unto the world , that the church of god is carefull to practice that which it professeth , is very profitable : but such is this separation , for it sheweth that they cannot away with ungodly life ; no , not among themselves : therefore it is profitable for the church of god . 4. that which giveth occasion to the church , to be exercised in the actions of religion , with more sound comfort , is profitable for the same : but such is this separation , for every one shall see thereby , the unworthy ( for whose sakes , god might be angry with them all , josh. 7.11 . ) weeded from among them : therefore it is profitable for the church of god . 5. that which is a speciall meanes to procure the lord ( in mercy ) to continue his word unto his church , is profitable for the same ▪ such is this separation ; for it is a notable means to keep men in obedience to that which they professe : therefore it is profitable for the church of god . therefore , if separation of the knowne or suspected sinner , from the lords supper , and such a church officer from the execution of his publike function , doe keepe men in obedience that be godly , and restraineth hypocrites from outrage ; if it remove the very appearance of evill ; if it let the world see , that the church laboureth to practice that which it doth professe ; if it make every member of the church to be exercised in the actions of religion , with greater comfort ; lastly , if it be a speciall mean to procure the lord in mercy , to continue his word ; then must it needs follow , that it is of very profitable use unto the church of god . chap. xix . when neither admonition , nor suspention will serve to reclaim the offender , but that it doth appeare , that he abideth in impenitency , and is incorrigible , the eldership , after mature deliberation , and commending of the party unto the prayers of the church ( he yet remaining obstinate ) is to proceed to excommunication : which containeth these propositions in question betwixt us and the bb. 1. it may not be done , but upon great and waightie occasion . 2. it may not be done by any one man , but by the eldership , the whole church consenting thereunto . the former is holden by us , t. c. 1 book , pag. 183. discip. eccles. 130. and denied by them in their practice , that send it out ( many times ) for not paying of six pence . but our assertion is thus proved , and their godlesse practice disproved . 1. that which christ hath ordained for the last remedy against sinne , and onely to be used when neither admonition , reprehension , nor separation from the externall communion of the saints for a time will serve ; that same is not to be used , but upon great extremitie : but such is excommunication , as appeareth , matth. 18.15 . therefore it may not be used , but upon most waightie occasion , that is , in the case ( onely ) of extremitie , when no other meanes will serve the turne . 2. that which cutteth a man off from the church of god , and giveth him over unto satan , as one in a desperate case , that same may not be used , but in greatest extremitie : but such is excommunication , being used according as god hath left it unto his church , 1 cor. 5.5 . therefore it may not be used , but in greatest extremitie . 3. that which a man will do in the cutting off , of his hand or his foote , that same must the church doe , in excommunication ; for it is the cutting off , of a member : but a man will try all other wayes , and will never cut off his hand or his foote , untill he see it incurable , and ready to infect the other parts of his body : therefore excommunication may not be used , but in case of greatest extremitie . 4. that which is contrary to naturall affection , and worketh that which a loving heart doth tremble to thinke of ; that same may not be done , but in greatest extremitie : but such is the excommunication , for it depriveth the party excommunicated of our love , and throweth him into the most wretched case , that can be fall unto man in this life : therefore it may not be done , but in cases of greatest extremitie . therefore , if excommunication be ordained of christ , as a remedy , onely when all other helpes will not serve ; if it cut the partie from gods church , and give him over unto satan ; if it must ●e proceeded unto , 〈◊〉 a man doth ●o the cutting off of his hand 〈◊〉 ●oote ; lastly , if it be a worke contrary unto the naturall affection of man , and 〈◊〉 that which a loving heart doth tremble to thinke upon : then must it needs follow , that it is to be proceeded unto , onely in the cases of greatest extremitie , and af●●● that all other meanes have beene us●d ▪ and doe appeare not to 〈◊〉 . the latter point ( which is , that excommunication may not 〈◊〉 done by one man , but by the eldership , the whole church consenting thereunto ) is holde● 〈◊〉 as , t.c. book 1. pag. 183. discip. ecclesiast . 130. &c. and denied by them , whitgift , pag. 662. and their continuall practise ; but our a●●e●tion is th●● proved , and their opinion and practice , found to be erroneous and ungodly . 1. that which christ command●d to be done by the church , may not be done by one man , unlesse you take my l. grace for the church , 〈◊〉 whitgift doth , pag. 662. which needeth 〈◊〉 confutation ▪ but christ commended that excommunication should 〈◊〉 done by the church , matth. 18.15 . therefore it may not be done by one man . 2. that which paul enjoyned the church , when they were met together , to doe , may not be done by one man : but he commanded them 〈…〉 the incestuous person , when they were met together , 1 cor. 5.5 . therefore it may not ●● done by one man . 3. that which hath need of greatest advice , and greatest authoritie , may no be done by one man ▪ but such is the matter of excommunication , being the denouncing of that against a man , which he will most hardly beleeve , and being the waightiest point of discipline : therefore it may not be done by one man . 4. those must excommunicate , that are to deale in the other parts of discipline , as shall appeare in the reasons following , and ( a● i thinke ) no man will deny : but the other parts of discipline are exercised not by one , but by the church , as hath beene proved : therefore not one , but the church is to excommunicate . 5. as it was ministred among the jewes , so must it be in the church forever ; which appeareth by this , that it is translated unto us from them ( as the greeke word synedri●n , being by a corrupt imitation , called sanedrim , by the rabbins , doth import ) and had nothing ceremoniall in it : but it was executed among them by the church , and not any one , joh. 9.22 . therefore the church is to excommunicate , and not one man . 6. saith , he would never doe any thing in his charge , without the counsell of his elders , and consent of the people . 7. the elders , and other church-officers , have as well power to absolve , as the bishop . 8 for so much as absolution belongeth unto all , i alone dare not doe it . 9. if there be any that have committed such a fault , that he is to be put away from the partaking of the prayers of the church , &c. there doe beare rule , certaine of the most approved ancients or elders of the church , which have obteined this honour , not by money , but by good report . 10. it helpeth much to make the party more ashamed , that he be excommunicated by the whole church : also in his books of baptisme , against the donatists often . 11. the elders have interest in other censur●s of the church , and the church it selfe in excommunication . 12. s. paul accuseth the corinthians ▪ for that the whole church had not excommunicated the incestuous person . 13. the elders had the government in excommunication . 14. it is very dangerous to permit so weightie a matter to one man , and therefore that tyranny may be avoyded , and this censure executed with greater fruit and gravitie , the order that the apostle there useth , is still to be observed . 15. he sheweth that it pertaineth not to one man , that it is a wicked fact that one should take the authoritie to himselfe , that is common to others ; that it openeth a way to tyranny ; taketh from the church their right , and abrogateth the ecclesiasticall senate , ordained by jesus christ . 16. the bishops , when they excommunicated of themselves alone , did it ambitiously , contrary to the decrees of godly cannons : see bucer against gropper , and upon ephes. 4. de animi c●ra , also zuinglius in ecclesiast . 17. it is plentifully forbidden ( even ) by that filthy puddle , the cannon law , and therefore it must needs be a hainous sinne , when it findeth fault with it . therefore , if excommunication be to be executed ( by the commandement of christ ) of the church ; if s. paul enjoyned it unto the church ; if it have need of greatest advice and authoritie ; if it belong to them that may execute the other parts of discipline ; if it was so executed among the jewes ; if to absolve , be as well in the elders power , as the bishops ; if cyprian durst not doe it alone ; if it was the action ( in tertullians time ) of the most approved elders ; if to be by the whole church , helpeth much to make the partie more ashamed , if the whole church have interest in it ; if the whole church at corinth was reproved , for not doing it ; if it be too waightie a matter for one man ; if the executing of it by one , overturneth the order appointed by christ ; bringeth in tyranny ; maintaineth ambition ; and lastly , be forbidden by the cannon law it selfe . then must it needs follow , that it belongeth not unto one man to excommunicate , but unto the eldership , and that with the consent of the whole church . their objections hereunto in defence of their owne practice , be these : 1. objection . the right of excommunication , was in s. paul , and not in the rest . answer . he gave onely direction in that , as in all other matters , which he wrote of unto them , but if they had not throwne out the incestuous person , he had remained still unexcommunicated , for all that which s. paul had said unto them . 2. objection . christ gave peter and every apostle power to binde and loose in earth and in heaven , which interpreters expound by matth. 18.15 . a●●wer . that power was of denouncing gods judgements ▪ or pronouncing his mercy in preaching , and not of this action : they are expounded one by another , because of the ratifying of them both in heaven alike . 3. objection . paul did excommunicate hymeneus and philetus . answer . that is , being moderator of the action , he pronounced it , not that he did it alone ; the same answer , is to be made unto the fathers , as ambrose , &c. who are said to excommunicate . therefore , upon these grounds of scriptures , fathers , councels , emperours , lawes , histories , new writers , and cleare light of reason . i conclude , that a christ hath prescribed unto us an exact , and perfect platforme of governing his church at all times , and in all places ; which is this , b that there ought to be no ministers of the word , but pastors and teachers , which are to be c called by the people , and d ordained by the eldership , are of e equall authoritie in their severall congregations , must f with all faithfull diligence imploy themselves , in the ministery of the word and sacraments , g that there are to be in every congregation certaine elders , whose office is to oversee the behaviour of the people , and assist their pastour , in the government of the church ; h also deacons , who are to be imployed onely in receiving , and bestowing the liberalitie and goods of the church to the reliefe of the poore ▪ and other necess●ry uses : i lastly , that there must be in congregation an eldership of pastour , teacher ( if they can have any ) and elders , who are in common , to see that the church be well governed , not onely in maintaining the profession and practise of the word in generall , k but also in admonishing , reprehending , or l separating from the lords supper , them that walke offensively ; ●nd m lastly , in excommunicating them , that by no other meanes can be reclaimed . so that all and every government , contrary or besides this , whether in part or in whole , swarveth from that order , which christ hath set downe in his word , and therefore is unlawfull . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a64633e-80 omni● cum 〈…〉 bonum . notes for div a64633e-300 1 tim 3.14 15. prover● 2 9 1 cor. 10 31. 1 tim. 4 5. rom. 14 23. heb. 3.2 . rom 12 5 , 6 , 7. 1 cor. 12 28 ephes 4.11 , &c. see coun●●rp page 11. matth. 21.25 , 26. matth. 28.20 . cy●rian in serm●●● de baptism● ch●isti . cypri●n de presc●●p adv●●sus 〈◊〉 . cyprian lib. 1. epist. 8. the conclusion . notes for div a64633e-950 the first proposition . the second proposition . reason for the first proposition . iohn 1.23 25. numb. 16. the conclusion . the conclusion ▪ the 2 p●oposition and reasons for the proofe of it . that the name of archb. may be given no man . 1 pet 5 41 heb 13 20. acts 3.15.5.31 . heb. 12.2 . obiections for the name of archb and answers thereunto whitgift page 318. that the office o● archb. is unlawfull . the conclusion . obiections for the office o● the archb. and answers therun●o . the conclusion . the 3 proposit●on and reasons for it . acts 1.20 . concil. calcedon . c●p . 6 art . 15. concil vrb●num test . gratuu● d●●t●0 . ier●m ad nepotia● . the conclusion . an obiection . the answer . notes for div a64633e-3470 our assertion . their assertion ▪ concil. nice canon 15. concil. 〈◊〉 . 2. theodoret lib. 1. cap 19. the conclusion . notes for div a64633e-4050 our assertion . acts 1. ●● numb. 8.9 . cyprian bo●kes . epist 3. ambrose epist. ●2 . ierome ad ruf●● 〈◊〉 . ad nepo●●●num . this is right ou● 〈◊〉 ●a●hion . nazianzen . augustine . basil epist●8 . chrysost in act . 1. concil nicen. 〈◊〉 theodoret. the same c●●test hist. trip●r● l●b 2. con●il constan. ●est 〈◊〉 part hist. lib. 9. cap 14. concil carthag. ca●●● . concil 〈◊〉 . test d●st . 51. concil. 〈◊〉 . canon . 10. ●usti●i●n in ●od . carolus m●gn●● di●t 63 〈…〉 . lodovic● caro●● 〈◊〉 . p●atin● in vita 〈…〉 . idem in vita leonis 〈◊〉 . the conclusi●n t c. 2. booke 1 part . page 212. notes for div a64633e-5630 the conclusion . notes for div a64633e-5870 the 1. proposition . the 2. proposition . the 1 proposition is ●hus proved . august lib. de 〈…〉 g●egor 1. epist. 33. 〈◊〉 ad oc●●men●um . cons●● ▪ ●elvet . the 2. proposition ●s thus proved . conclusion ▪ notes for div a64633e-6650 theod●●et book 5. cap. 3 ●concil ▪ cart●ag . c●p 23. cypri●n , lib. 1. epi●t . 4. the conclusion . notes for div a64633e-7220 conclusion . notes for div a64633e-7300 reasons against the first propositi●n . hooper upon 1 command . the conclusion . the second proposition that they hold , and reasons against ●t . cyprian lib. 1. epist. 3. luther adver●●s papa●● a satan● fun●●t . muscul. loc. com de manist . ve●bi . the same upon 2 thes. 2. co●fes helvet ▪ cap. 17. the same cap. ●8 . the conclusion . a bishop should be in every congregation . ignatiu● 〈…〉 . 〈◊〉 l●b 3. 〈◊〉 . 1. 〈◊〉 ▪ 75. 2 c●ncil . ca●t●ag t●m . 1. cap. 10 3. 〈…〉 4 cap 8 ▪ (a) 〈◊〉 lib. 5. cap. 16 (b) 〈◊〉 . lib. 5 cap. 4. (c) 〈◊〉 4 ●6 . (d) quaest 16. 〈◊〉 ●0 〈◊〉 evagri●●● . act a●d monum●nts , fol. 216. hooper upon 8 comma●d . pag. ●0 . the conclusio● . notes for div a64633e-8770 ignat. ad trail . tertul. de baptist . ierome contra lucif . ambros. upon 1 tim. 5. possidonius in vita augusti●i socrat. libr. 5. cap. 22. bucer de regno christs book 1 p. martyr upon rom. 1● . the same upon 1. cor. 12. calvin institu● lib 4. cap. 3. sect. 8. the conclusi●n ▪ reasons prooving elde●s as necessary under a christian magistrate , as in the apostles time . the conclusion . notes for div a64633e-9580 the first proposition . 6. council . constant . cap. 16. 2. council . vasens . can. 4. chrisost. upon acts. 6. pulling ▪ decard ● . ser. 2. bu●er de reg. christ ▪ 14. the same de reg. &c. and upon ephes. 4. p. mart. rem . 12 calvin insti. lib. 4. cap. 3. sect. 9. beza confes. cap. 5. sect. 23. the conclusion . the 2. proposition . ign●t . ad philadelp . the conclusion . notes for div a64633e-10270 the proofe of the 11. proposition . the conclusion . the 2. proposition . see the answer to d. bridges , pag. 132. conf. helvet . t●●ur . bern. ge●ev● , pelo●●● , h●rgari● , scotland , cap. 18. calvin instit. lib. 4. cap. 3. sect. 8. p. martyr upon r●● . 3. bu●er de reg. ch●ist . 15. mr. whitaker against duraeas . the conclusion . objections against the perpetuitie of the eldership , and answers to the same . the thi●d proposition . the conclusion . notes for div a64633e-11670 canon . apost. cap. 80. concil. calced· cap. 3. & 7. 4. concil. carth. ca. 20. calvin . instit. li . 4. ca. 11. sect 9. beza . confes● . ca. 5. sect. 32. & 42. p. martyr upon rom. 1● . bucer upon matth. 5. the conclusion . objections for ciuill offices in ecclesiasticall persons . notes for div a64633e-12480 the conclusion . notes for div a64633e-12640 the conclusion . notes for div a64633e-12770 suspention warranted by the word , being upon such grounds as the word setteth down . the conclusion . the us● of suspention profitable in the church . the conclusion . notes for div a64633e-13020 the proofe of the first proposition . the conclusion . the proofe of the second proposition . cyprian lib. 3. epist. 10. epist. 14. epist. 19. tertul. apol. cap. 39. august lib. 3. cont. epist. per●●● . jerom. ad demetriad . epist. 1. bucer de regro christi lib. 1. cap. 5● . p. martyr in 1 cor. 5. the same upon the same place . calvin instit. lib 4 cap. 11. sect. 6. chap. 12. sec● ▪ 6 see abstract . pag. 165. the conclusion . the conclusi●n of the w●●le b●●ke . a chap. ● . b chap. 1● . & 11. c chap. 4. d chap 7. e chap 10. f chap. 10. g chap. 12. h chap. 13. i chap. 14 k chap. 17. l chap. 18. m chap. 1● . a vindicaton of churches, commonly called independent, or, a briefe answer to two books the one, intituled, twelve considerable serious questions, touching church-government, the other, independency examined, unmasked, refuted, &c. : both lately published by william prinne ... / henry burton ... burton, henry, 1578-1648. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a30650 of text r20892 in the english short title catalog (wing b6176). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 185 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 39 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a30650 wing b6176 estc r20892 12047280 ocm 12047280 53107 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a30650) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 53107) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 861:31) a vindicaton of churches, commonly called independent, or, a briefe answer to two books the one, intituled, twelve considerable serious questions, touching church-government, the other, independency examined, unmasked, refuted, &c. : both lately published by william prinne ... / henry burton ... burton, henry, 1578-1648. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a30650 of text r20892 in the english short title catalog (wing b6176). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread [4], 72 p. printed for henry overton ..., london : 1644. reproduction of original in union theological seminary library, new york. eng prynne, william, 1600-1669. -twelve considerable serious questions touching church government. prynne, william, 1600-1669. -independency examined. church polity. a30650 r20892 (wing b6176). civilwar no a vindication of churches, commonly called independent: or, a briefe ansvver to two books; the one, intituled, twelve considerable serious q burton, henry 1644 35356 286 50 0 0 0 0 95 d the rate of 95 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the d category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2004-06 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-06 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-07 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2004-07 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a vindication of churches , commonly called independent : or a briefe ansvver to two books ; the one , intituled , twelve considerable serious questions , touching church-government : the other , independency examined , unmasked , refuted , &c. both lately published by william prinne , of lincolnes-inne , esquire . by henry burton , a brother of his , and late companion in tribulation . mat. 10. 34 , 35 , 36. think not that i am come to send peace on earth ; i came not to send peace , but a sword . for i am come to set a man at variance against his father , and the daughter against her mother , and the daughter in law against her mother in law : and a mans foes shall be they of his owne houshold . if any man will come after me , let him deny himselfe , and take up his crosse daily , and follow me . luk. 9. 23. the second edition . entred and printed according to order . london ; printed for henry overton , in popes-head alley . 1644. to mr. william prinne , &c. my deare brother , and late companion in tribulation , you propound your twelve questions to all sober minded christians , cordially affecting a speedy setled reformation , and brotherly christian union in all the churches , ( as you write in front ) and myselfe being one of these , ( and no other you shall find me ) doe with the right hand take your propositions as made to me among the rest ▪ craving your leave to returne you a brotherly answer . and brotherly in nothing more , then by a candid and christian dealing with you all along , and that also in a matter of such high moment , as concernes the kingdome and glory of jesus christ . the zeale whereof is that alone , which puts me upon this task ; it being otherwise far beyond my thoughts , that you and i , having been fellow-sufferers , and spectacles to the world , upon that tragicall stage of antichristian tyranny , should ever come upon the theatre as antagonists , one against the other , about the kingdome of jesus christ . but surely as an antagonist against you i come not , but in the bowells of a brother . and had not the book had your name in the front , my stomack had not stooped so low , as to take it up or downe . but because most men are apt to take all upon trust , where they find mr. prinnes name engaged : and the cause being so precious , as it hath by right taken up my whole heart , to become an advocate to plead the excellency of it : i could not , though the meanest of all , but for the love of christ constraining me , and by his grace assisting , undertake this taske . otherwise unwilling in hoc ulcere esse unguis , as the roman orator said in another case . and this answer was brought to the birth soone after yours : but it wanted a midwife , whereof you have plenty . and i have had many interruptions . nor am i so quick of foot , as you . but i may say , as ierome once to young augustin ; bos lassus fortiùs figit pedem . and so in the spirit of love i come to your booke . a vindication of churches , commonly called independent . you are for a speedy accomplishment of a reformation . and so am i , and so our late covenant taken , binds every man to begin with himselfe , and those under him , and each to prevent other in the worke . but yet this is sooner said then done . for * shall a nation be borne at once ? shall a corrupt , prophane , polluted land , not yet washed from her old superstitions , not yet wained from the aegyptian fleshpots , not yet wrought off from the spirit of bondage , become all on a sudden a reformed nation ? but yet optandum est ut fiat , conandum est ut fiat , ( to use augustins words of the conversion of the jewes ) it were to be wished , and should be ind●voured . but as rome was not built in one day , nor the mystery of iniquitie perfected in one day : so neither can rome be so easily pulled downe in one day : nor can england become a mount sion in one day ; first the old rubbish will require some time to be removed out of your church-walls , but how much longer time out of mens hearts , where they have been so long , so fast incorporated ? and you know , that the materialls of that typicall temple , the timber , the stone , were all ●ewed first , and squared , before they came to make up the building . therefore soft and faire . the people are generally ignorant of a right reformation . a right reformation is a setting up of christs spirituall kingdome , first over the hearts and consciences , and then over the severall churches . for this , the * carpenters and masons must be set a work , godly and able ministers must be sought out , and sought for of the lord , to fit the crooked timber , and rugged stones , for the spirituall temple . for england is generally ignorant of the mysterie of christs kingdome ; the prelates usurped all , suppressed altogether this spirituall kingdom ; no ministers durst so much as mutter a word of it . who durst say , that mens consciences are subject to none , but christ ? that christ is the only law-giver of his church ? that the churches of christ ought not to be burthened with any humane ordinances in gods worship ? that all humane rites and ceremonies invented by men , and imposed on men in gods service , are all a * will-worship , condemned by the apostle ? and the like . and yet wee deny not that every member in a church is to be subject to the officers thereof , holding out the word , for conscience sake , hebr. 13. 17. now if the people have not heard of christ thus a king , no , not to this day in most congregations of england do heare , or understand any thing of christs kingly office over consciences and churches , as whereupon a right reformation doth principally depend : how can such a reformation be speedily set up , when the preaching up of christs kingdome is altogether silent , as if ministers mouths were not yet freed from their old muzzle ? therefore , i conceive , if the better heed be not taken , there may be more hoste to a reformation , then good speed : when among so many congregations , so many thousands in england , very few would be found to have on the wedding garment . a reformation therefore , such as god requires , will necessarily require longer time yet , that we may not go blind-fold about it . you tell us , that importunity of some reverend friends hath drawn from you your digested subitane apprehensions of these distracting controversies . who those reverend friends are , it matters not . but had i been accounted worthy to be reckoned among those reverend friends , to have been made acquainted with such a purpose , i should have used all importunity ▪ seasoned with strong reasons , to have disswaded you from those subitane apprehensions . and seeing i come to know them , though somewhat too late , in that they cannot be recalled ; admit your self were aristotle , and your friend plato , yet i will say , amicus aristotles , amicus plato , sed magis amica veritas . and therefore i must be plaine with you , otherwise i should neither love you , nor your friend , nor yet the truth it selfe . to be plaine therefore , though i know you to be a very heluo librorum , of vast & indefatigable reading , and to have a stomack proportionable , of a strong digestion : yet give me leave to tell you , as my loving and beloved friend and brother , that the subject you here deale with , is not of so easie a digestion , as that subitane , or sudden apprehensions thereof may be w●ll said to be digested . strong meats , you know , taken downe liberally into the stomack , doe require the longer time for a kindly digestion . and a sudden digestion is apt to leave many indigested crud●●ies , ingendring malignant humours in the body . you digest your apprehensions into considerable questions , ( as you call them ) to be solemnly debated by sober minds : but passing along ( brother ) i find your questions turned into your owne resolutions , so as in stead of debating them by sober minded men , you forestall them , and tell us , that these independents , ( as you style them ) are guilty of arrogancy , schisme , contumacy , and liable to such penalties , as are due to these offences , in case they shall not submit to such a publick church-government , rites , discipline , as a synod and parliament shall conceive most consonant to gods word , &c. and all along , your queries are so digested by you , as that they cast up a very ill sent , if not rather a judiciall sentence against those churches , which not honoris causa you name independents . but we shall answer to the particulars , as they come in order . thus much of your proeme , or preface . to your first question . before i punctually answer this , and so the rest of your questions , let me premise this , as an {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , which i must demand of you a due to my profession : that forasmuch as you are a learned lawyer , and able to speake much of lawes , and customes of nations , and churches , and my selfe am a professor of divinitie , the rules and principles whereof , are all of them laid downe in the scripture , unto which alone all questions about faith and religion are so reducible , and finally determinable , as who so denieth this , denieth the faith , and is not to be disputed with , as a denier of principles : therefore i require of you , as a christian brother , to joyne issue with me in this point , that all your questions may be resolved by cleare scriptures , and reason , evidently deduced from them ; and this with all brevitie and perspicuitie . now to your first question , the summe whereof is , whether every severall nation , republick , and nationall church , hath not under the gospell a * liberty and latitude left them to chuse and settle such an orderly forme of church-government , discipline , and ecclesiasticall rites , as is most suteable to their particular civill government , lawes , manners , customes , being not repugnant to the word of god . this being ( as i conceive ) a generally received truth among all protestant churches . and whether some things in all church-governments , discipline , ceremonies whatsoever , are not , and must not be left to humane prudence , for which there is no direct precept nor pattern in sacred writ ? which truth is assented to by all parties , churches , whatsoever , in theory or practice . this is the substance of your first question . to which i answer : and first to your quotation of the harmony , i will answer one for all . sect. 16. august . confessio 4. traditiones de ●●riis , &c. we condemne not traditions of holy-dayes , of the lords day , of the nativity , of easter , and the rest , for a politick end . here , you see , they put the observation of the lords day , among humane traditions , which i suppose you doe not approve . again , they allow onely such observations , as god by the morall law , and the voyce of nature it selfe commandeth . and thirdly , that humane rites be not imposed , ne conscientiae onerentur , that mens consciences bee not burthened . and in a word : to shape religion in point of church-government , discipline , ceremonies , to every nation , republick , nationall church , and to civill government , lawes , manners , customes , and so to humane prudence , ( as you say ) what is it but to shape a coat for the moone ? whereas the scripture holds forth unto us , but onely one forme of church-government , and discipline , which ought not to be altered according to the diversitie of humane lawes and customes in all kingdomes and common-weales , as you affirme . and whereas you make a proviso , alwayes provided , every thing bee consonant , and no way repugnant to the word of god : to what purpose is this , when the very liberty you give of altering church-government and discipline as may be sutable to humane laws and customes , is it self repugnant , and no way consonant to the word of god ; as we shall shew by and by . this is transformare ecclesiam in humanam politiam , to transforme the church into a humane politie . * hae imaginationes omnibus aetatibus inde usque ab initio mundi nocuerunt ecclesiae , & semper nocebunt , these imaginations , or fancies , have in all ages from the beginning of the world hurt the church , and will alwayes hu●t . thus the harmony * now , brother , whereas you seem to challenge us infallibly to evidence by any gospel text , that christ hath peremptorily prescribed one and the self-same form of ecclesiasticall government , discipline , rites , to all nations , churches , in all particulars , from which they may in no case vary , under pain of mortall sin , schisme , or being no true churches of christ , with whom good christians may not safely communicate : first , what evidence from scripture can you bring , why it should not necessarily be so ? you would seeme to make this a ground why church-government , discipline , rites , should be alterable according to the severall laws and customes of severall nations : because ( say you ) christ enjoyned the preaching of the gospel to all nations and people whatsoever , who have their severall established defferent formes of civill government , laws , manners , rules and customes , sutable to their respective dispositions , climes , republicks . by this reason you might argue , that therefore the gospel it self may be preached variously , according to the variation of the climate * : and if not so , then ( say i ) neither is the church-government and discipline to be varied according to the diversity of nations , laws , customes , climates . for , brother , the church-government and discipline now in the time of the gospel , is a part of the gospel , as being the gospel-government , and discipline of the evan 〈…〉 l churches . and , brother why should you think that christ now under the gospel , or new testament , hath ●e●t a greater liberty to men to alter that form of church-government and discipline , which in the new testament is laid down , then he did in the old testament under the leviticall law ? what a strict charge did this law-maker give to moses ? see ( saith he ) that thou do all things according to the pattern shewed thee in the mount . he must not vary one pin * . but some will say , when the tribes of israel were reduced under a kingly government , as in davids time , the service of god was in greater state and externall pomp , when the temple was built , then it was before in the tabernacle ; whereby it may appear , that there was a liberty left to david to alter the form of worship so , as was sutable to the regall state . but i answer , here was no liberty left to man to alter any thing in the worship of god , or in the church-government . for god was so exact in this , that he would not leave it to david himself , though both a king and a prophet , and a man after gods own heart , to set up what worship he pleased in the temple , but god gave him an exact patterne of all , and that not onely by his spirit , but in writing , that he might neither adde nor omit in the least tittle , 1 chron. 28. and you know it was never left to the kings of judah , to do the least thing in point of reformation , but onely to see , that the priests do all strictly , ( not any thing as seemed good to them , but all ) according to the precise rule of the law , 2 chron. 31. now was the great law-giver so strict under the old testament , and is he grown more remisse under the new ? in ezekiels vision of the temple , or church in the time of the gospel , ezek. 43. 10 , 11. wee reade of a patterne , form , fashion of everie particular thing of the house of god , which is his church , exactly set down , and measured by gods own speciall direction . or are men more wise and more faithfull now then david was , that christ should trust every nation with such a liberty as this , to alter and diversifie church-government and discipline , so as might be most agreeable to this or that kingdoms , common-weales , countreys custome , commodity , conveniencie ? and as for your nationall church here mentioned , we shall take a just measure of it when we come to your ninth question . and whereas you quote in the margine , 1 cor. 14. 40. & 11. 34. on which you ground your liberty to form your church-government & discipline sutably to each particular civill government : alas , brother , these very scriptures our prelates abused to maintain their unlimited liberty of setting up their rites and ceremonies , as sutable to the civil government ; which absurdity i have fully refelled in my reply to canterburies relation . whereas the apostle there exhorteth , that all things be done decently and in order , according to those rules they had received of him : to which agreeth the other place alledged by you , other things will i set in order when i come , as titus 1. 5. he left titus in crete , that he might set in order the things that remained ; but all according to the apostles direction for church-government , and choice of officers . and we should have a mad world of it , if civill states in severall countreys should have liberty to frame church-government and discipline , as should most sute with their particular conditions . this liberty is that which both ecclesiasticall and civill states usurping , turned the spirituall kingdom of christ over consciences and churches , into a temporal and secular kingdom , or rather indeed an anti-christian tyranny , or hierarchy , so as by this means it came to passe , that the second beast ascending out of the earth , to wit , the pope , ( revel. 13. 11. ) commands the inhabitants of the earth to make an image , that is , to set up a forme of religion and church-government , sutable to the image of the first beast , to wit , the imperiall state of rome . and thus came to be erected the hierarchicall church-government , in all pomp and points sutable with the romane monarchy . so dangerous is that libertie which brings such bondage . according to that , licentia sumus omnes deteriores : this brings not liberty , but licentiousnesse . your second question is : whether if any kingdome or nation shall by a nationall councell , synod and parliament , upon serious debate , elect such a publick church-government , rites , discipline , as they conceive to be most consonant to gods word , to the laws , government under which they live , and manners of their people , and then settle them by a generall law ; all particular churches , members of that kingdome and nation , be not therefore actually obliged in point of * conscience and christianity , readily to submit thereto , and no wayes to seek an exemption from it , under pain of being guilty of arrogancie . schisme , contumacie , and liable to such penalties as are due to these offences . i answer : that is , whether the kingdome and nation of england , &c. the summe is , you would here make way for a politicall state church-government , or a mixt church-government , partly , according to gods word ; and partly to the laws and government under which we live ; and partly , to the manners of the people . humano capiti cervicem jungere equinam . or , populout placerent , &c. truly , brother , your very question is hereticall , you must pardon the expression , which otherwise would not come home to the full truth . and your word elect , imports no lesse . for elect taken in that sense , as you here apply it , to set up a form of religion , of church-government , and discipline , with rites and ceremonies sutable to the laws and customes of a state , and manners of the people : and , as men conceive , is of the same signification with {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , which signifieth a taking up an heresie upon humane election ; or , as you say , as they conceive . for you say not , such a church-government , &c. as is most consonant to gods word : but such as they conceive to be most consonant . so as you hang your church-government upon mens conceit , or opinion of consonancy with gods word , and not upon a reall and essentiall consonancy . just like the prelate of canterbury , who in his relation hangs the credit of the scripture upon the author , and the opinion we have ( saith he ) of his sufficiency . which i have noted in my reply . but thus you open a wide sluce , to let in an ocean of inundation of all sorts of religion into all parts of the vvorld , vvhen every religion shall be measured by the line of mans conception , what men conceive agreeable to gods word . thus might henry 4. the late french king ( to make his way the easier to the crown through so many difficulties ) apostatize from the protestant religion , and turn to popery , as conceiving it sutable to the word of god , to comply with the state of france , and the manners of the people , for the establishing of his kingdome ( as he conceived , though he was deceived ) by becoming himself a popish king . and so jeroboam with his counsell might conceive it agreeable enough to gods word , to set up his calves most sutable to the new laws and customes of that state , and to the manners of the people , who are apt enough to embrace idolatry and superstition , as ephraim willingly walked after the commandment , hos. 5. 11. and so in the rest . now that is an heresie which is an error conceived and maintained against the word of god . that the maintaining of such a liberty as you assume here , is so , we have in part shewed already from the scripture , whence you are not able to bring the least shadow of reason to maintain it . nay , we need go no further for the disfranchising of this your liberty , but your own words . your words are asistata , they cannot cohere in any true theologicall sense . for first , we ought not to assume , or pretend a liberty , as left us of god , when we want our evidence , and are not able to produce our charter out of the magna charta , the scripture . and this , brother , not you , nor any man can do . again , nothing is more presumptuous ; then to attempt to mingle heaven & earth together , that is , to mingle christs kingdom with the kingdoms of the world , or to these to frame and fashion that , which what is it else , but to set up a babylonish church-government . did the apostles thus ? did they frame christs kingdom & church-government to the laws and customes of the romance empire ? or did they vary their orders for church-government & discipline , according to the different manners and customes of those nations , countreys or provinces where they planted their churches ? had they one order for the church of corinth , and another for the churches of galatia , and a third for the churches of asia and the rest ? no : but * so ordain i in all churches , saith the apostle . and * concerning the collection for the saints , as i have given order to the churches of galatia , even so do ye . so also for making of ministers and other church-officers , act. 1. & 14. 23. again , your church-government must be conceived to be consonant to gods word , yet with this restriction or limitation , that it be also consonant to the laws and government under which we live . you speak indeed like a pure lawyer , & one that will stand for your profession , were this the way to uphold it . but cannot your law , and our gospel cotton together , unlesse the gospel weare the laws livery , like to your serjeants gown , made up of two severall colours ' ; or unlesse law and gospel be woven together into a linsey woolsey garment ? but what if your law present , stand still in force for church-government , without being repealed ? must the gospel be brought again under your prelaticall church-government ? or rather why should not a generall law ( to use your words ) be enacted , to inhibite all formes of church-government and discipline , which are not every way consonant to gods word , without this addition , and to the laws and government under which we live ? for certainely , if the lawes and government of the state under which we live , be good and just , there is no need why you should put upon christs kingly government in his church , such hard conditions , as not to be admitted , but so farre as it is consonant to mans laws . as tertullian said , when upon the emperour tiberius his motion to the romane senate , that christ might be admitted and enrowled among romes gods , and the senate refused , because they had made a law , that none should be chosen for a god , unlesse first propounded by the senate : ergo nisi homini placuerit , deus non erit deus ; therefore if it please not man , god shall not be god . so let it be lawfull for me to say ; if it please not man , not the senate , christ shall not be king , his kingdome shall have no place in this or that nation . as if the good laws of a civill state , and the good laws of christs kingdome , could not , ought not to stand together in their distinct forms unmixed ; when certainly a state stands strongest , while most consonant to gods word , and to the church-government and discipline of christ , and not when christs kingdome and government is made sutable to the laws and customes of the state . famous was that answer of eleutherius , bishop of rome , to lucius king of britaine , when this countrey of britaine first received the faith ( being the first province that received it ) where the gospel began freely to be preached , without impeachment or inhibition of the prince ( as the * story saith ) and that without any ceremonies at all : king lucius sending to e●eutherius for some modell , or form of church-government and discipline : he received this answer ; that christ had left sufficient order in the scripture for the government of the church ; and not onely for that , but also for the regiment of his whole realme , if he would submit himself to follow that rule . you require of us ( saith he ) the romane ordinances , with the imperiall statutes also to be sent unto you , which you desire to practise : the romane laws we may find to be faulty , but gods laws never . you have received of late through gods mercy , in the realme of britaine , the law and faith of christ ; you have with you both volumes of the scriptures : out of them therefore by gods grace , and the counsell of your realm , take you a law , and by that law through gods sufferance rule your kingdome . now this eleutherius being the 14th bishop of rome , by platina's account , it shews unto us the great difference between that , and after-times , wherein the mystery of iniquity grew up to its height , in assuming such an unlimited liberty to set up such a church-government , and ceremonies of humane invention , as were haled in by the head and shoulders . but brother prinne , you see here , how in those purer primitive times , even the bishop of rome himselfe was so farre from admitting a church-government sutable to the severall lawes and customes of every nation , ( as you would have it ) as he tels king lucius , he hath both the testaments , by the rule whereof he should not onely see the church to be governed , but his own realme also . ergo , the kingly government of christ in his church is not to be fashioned and moulded according to the lawes and customes of temporall and civill states , but contrarily the lawes of civill states are to be reduced to the rule of gods word . but you adde also , and manners of their people : that is , in their severall countries , and common-weales . surely this reflects mine eye upon that reformation begun in king edwards reigne . but now what church-government and discipline was to be set up ? why , the manners of the people must be the line and plummet to regulate this building by . the people of england had beene so long rooted in a superstitious egyptian soyle : but because fat , and filling their flesh-pots with onions and garlick , they could the better brook the burthens which their taskma●●ers the prelates inured their shoulders withall . and withall they must have their masse-service , though translated out of the roman into the english language . this in king edward his letter to the cornishmen , standing up for their masse-book , stilled the babes when they understood the english service-booke was no other then the romish masse clad in an english weed , though since it hath put off many of those ragges , but not all it should . so much it importeth , to have an eye to the peoples manners , and how they stand affected . when the lord cromwell had set forth the primmer , or psalter , without the letany , all the popishly affected , which were not a few , could not be quiet till they had cried up the letany again into its old place . so as in sine , through the love of superstition in the people , and the love of the world in the prelats ( alias the reformers , many of whom afterwards god reformed and purged in the flames of martyrdome ) such a reformation was set up , as for church-government and discipline ( onely translating the popes headship , and setting it upon the kings shoulders ) was the very same with that which was in henry 8. his dayes , and is at this day in rome ; and did so well sute with the civill government and manners of the people , that a generall law was enacted for the ratifying of that prelaticall government and discipline , which hath bred such manners in the people generally to this day , as if another reformation shall be set up , wherein the peoples manners shall be no lesse looked upon , then in the former ( as you here doe more then seeme to plead for ) i can conjecture , if not certainly divine , what a reformation both for church-government and discipline , your church of england is like to have . for if you aske the prelaticall party , consisting of multitudes of their priests , and of their ignorant and prophane people , together with all the kings army , they will all with one voyce and vote , roare it out at the canons mouth , w will have the bishops church-government and discipline continued without alteration . if ye aske the ordinary protestant professors at large , they cry , no , no ; not that ; but we will have such a church-government , as under which we may injoy no lesse libertie for our manners , then we had under the prelates . but you referre us to the serious debate of a nationall counsell , synod , parliament . but yet give us leave to put a vast difference between all these , and the scripture , christs owne voyce . if they truely informe us of the minde of christ in the scripture , we will blesse god for it : but yet if we can find out the mind of christ by his immediate voyce , we dare not suspend our beliefe and practise of it , until we have it at the second hand from men . and should we waite never so long upon the issae of their debate , commended unto us to be such as men conceive to be agreeable and cons●nant to gods word : yet for as much as we dare not * pinne our soules upon mens sleeves , as not knowing ( as one said ) whither they might possibly carry them : therefore we must examine all mens determinations in matters of religion by * searching the scriptures , and laying every thing to this line and rule . for the bereans are commended , as the more noble , in that they examined diligently and daily , even the apostles doctrine by the scriptures : and much more are wee to try the spirits of men , that are not apostles , and so not immediately inspired by the holy ghost with infallibility of truth , as never any generall councell after the apostles hath been so as you know how miserably and shamefully generall councels have erred . the first councell of nice , consisting of 318. bishops , how did they all agree to bring in a doctrine of devills , prohibiting priests marriage , had not one confessor , paphnutius , by evidence of scripture , and reason , cryed it downe , and so swayed the whole councell ? and you know very well , that generall councels , as well as nationall , have not infallibilitie of judgement in all things . and it cannot be unknowne to you , that even this assembly of divines are of different judgements about church-governement and discipline ; nor have they perhaps had so much time since their being under the prelacy , as to be throughly informed of the way of churches , commonly called independent , but that many of them may possibly gaine much more knowledge of it , by spending some more time and study in it . but sir , besides all this , you seeme to lead them such a way , ( should they follow you ) as would necessarily bring them into an inevitable and inextricable errour , in case they should elect such a publick church-government , rites , discipline , as they conceive to be most consonant to gods word , to the lawes , government under which we live , and manner of the people . for if they looke upon the manner of the people , which they must needs finde to bee for the most part very loose ( to speake nothing of ignorants and popish malignants ) some men might conceive , that such a church-government and discipline were most sutable , as doth most comply with , and give some indulgence to such manners , as cannot easily be brought to enter in at the straite gate , and narrow way , that leads into christs kingdome . and whatsoever church-government and discipline comes not full home in all things to the word of god , is not that which is consonant thereunto ▪ and so not pleasing unto god ; and the more consonant it is to gods word , the more strict and holy it will be found to be , and so the lesse consonant to the common prophane manners of this nation at this day . worthy of our observation is that of the lord to the prophet jeremy , jere. 15. 19. if thou take forth the pretions from the vile , thou shalt be as my mouth ; let them returne unto thee , but returne not thou unto them . whereupon the most learned interpreter ( as the learned beza constantly styles him ) calvin , among many other excellent observations on this place , thus concludeth ; summa est , veritatem dei non debere flecti ad hominum arbitrium , quae deus non mutatur ▪ ita nec verbum ejus ullam varietatem admittit : the summe is ; that the truth of god ought not to bee bended according to mans will or conceit , because god is not mutable , so neither doth his word admit of any change . now the forme of church-governement and discipline laid downe in the new testament , is a doctrine of christ , and no more alterable according to the varieties of mens customes and manners in all nations and ages , then the gospel it selfe is ; which the apostle would not have to bee altered into another gospel ; though another gospel cannot bee ; as neither another kingdome of christ , another church-governement , another church-discipline ought not to be , but that alone which we find in gods word , which must not bee reduced or conformed ( as a nose of waxe , to which the papists , as hosius , and pighius doe compare the scripture ) to the fashions of worldly governments , ( rom. 12. 2. ) and popular manners , but these must be conformed to the scripture . hence it may appeare , how rough your conclusion of this question is , if to such a generall law , as you propose , all particular churches , members of this kingdome and nation , should not yeeld to be actually obliged in point of conscience , and christianitie , and readily to submit thereunto , and no waies to seeke an exemption from it , under paine of being guiltie of arrogancy , schisme , c●ntumacy , and lyable to such penalties , as are due to these offences . good brother , be not so legall . what if that resolution of an assembly , and that generall law for the confirmation of it , be such ; as the conscience of godly people cannot without sinne submit thereunto ? must they either violate their consciences , or bee undone by your unavodable intolerable penalties , as both to suffer in their good names for arrogant , contumatious , schismatick● , yea and in their consciences too under the guilt of these , and to bee liable to i wot not what penalties besides ? and no waies to seeke an exemption from it ? why , good brother , if we should goe and live under the turkish government , and could not in conscience turne turkes in the religion there by law established , yet there is a way to seeke an exemption from it , namely , by becomming tributary to that state , as many christians doe . good brother let 's not have any of dracoes lawes executed upon innocents . and remember how not long agoe the prelates served us ; we could not have the benefit of law , of appeale , no exemption from bloud letting , and eare-cropping , and pillorying , &c. and shall wee now turne worse persecutors of the saints , then the prelates were ? non ignara mali miseris succurrere disco , saith that heathen princesse . but in the margent you put some places of scripture to prove this . but truly , when i well view the places , i find them not to answer to what you would seeme to prove by the quotation . the first is , 1 cor. 14. 32 , 33. for the spirit of the prophets is subiect to the prophets . and what of this ? ergo , the spirit of all the prophets in england must be subiect to the prophets in the assembly upon paine of being guiltie of arrogancy , schisme , contumacy , and liable to such penalties , as are due to these offences . o brother prynne , you must as well note , as quote the place . but let me note it for you . the apostle there speaks both to , and of the church of corinth , when assembled together in one place : that the prophets should observe order , and give place each to other in prophecying ; as the reason is rendered , and not of any such assembly of that sublime and supreame authoritie , or the onely prophets , to whom all other prophets wheresoever dispersed must be subject . ver. 33. for god is not the author of confusion , but of peace , as in all churches of the saints . which place also is no lesse wide from your purpose . what ? will there be no peace , but all confusion , unlesse all be subject to the assembly upon such paine , as before ? the apostle speaks here of the order to be observed in every church , as in all the churches of the saints . the other places quoted by you , are no lesse misapplyed . will they prove , trow you , blind obedience ? but come on brother , ( if you will needs put us upon such hard exigents , as to give us no quarter , without present laying down our armes and cause , and so captivating our consciences to the dictates and decrees of men ; if you will make no covenant with us , but upon this one onely condition , that you might thrust out all our right eyes ; and if there bee no other remedy , yet give us leave to capitulate with you about some terms of accomodation , that wee may not altogether betray our consciences and liberties , which our redeemer christ hath so dearly purchased for us . and the first and main is this : first , brother , make it cleare unto us , that an assembly of men learned , pious , what you will , living in ages succeeding the apostles , have , or ever had , infallibility of judgement , so as to say , ( as acts 15. 28. ) it pleased the holy ghost and us , to make these decrees , that so wee may without further scruple of conscience , submit and conforme thereunto . but ( i say ) you must give us very good assurance and evidence hereof , that they are infallibly guided by the holy ghost , that when they shall say , it pleased the holy ghost and us , we may safely believe them . for when you can resolve us of their conclusions no further , then as they conceive to bee consonant to the word of god : alas ! sir , you leave us in a wood , or maze , whence no extricating of our selves , without ariadnes thread , gods word , to set us where wee were before . for you knew what variety of conceits many men have , quot capita , tot sententiae . this is the first and main condition we stand upon ; and truly it were sufficient alone . we might in a second rank ( but not equall to the former ) name a selfe-deniall , and humble spirit , &c. you know the story of the monkes of bangor comming before austin the first archbishop of canterbury , whom they seeing to fit in his pontificall chaire , and not rising up , nor moving unto them , they left him as a man no● sent of god : and so , if wee should behold men carrying themselves loftily over their brethren , who are not of their counsell , we should be apt to suspect that christs spirit is not there , because there is not the spirit of humility , neither the spirit of truth to be found . a cardinall in the conclave at viterbium , after almost three yeares agitation about the election of a new pope , ( as many yeares as we have been about to set up a reformation , and the foundation not yet laid ) each cardinall ambitiously a spiring to be the pope , * one of them rose up and said , domine , &c. let us uncover the roose of this chamber , seeing the holy ghost cannot get in unto us through so many tiles . but this by the way . and so enough of this question . the third and fourth questions . i come now to your third and fourth question . but lest my answers may prove too voluminous , and so fastidious to everyday-newes readers , i shall in the rest contract my selfe . and this i must doe by trussi●g up your questions within the list of a syllogisme , respectively . for ( as i noted before ) all your questions are rather conclusive then interrogatory , rather positive resolutions , then unresolved questions . the summe therefore of your third and fourth questions ( for this dependeth on that ) is reduced into this syllogisme : that which hath sufficient ( if not best ) warrant for it in the new testament , the examples of the primitive church , &c. most prevents heresies , schismes , injustice ; is to be received as a true and undoubted church-government , and to be preferred before that , which hath no such expresse warrant in scripture , no patterne for it in the primitive , or best reformed churches , &c. but the presbyteriall forme of church-government , if rightly ordered , hath sufficient ( if not best ) warrant for it in the new testament , &c. the independent not so . therefore the former is to be preferred and received before the latter , without any long debate . the answer . both your propositions are lame and interfeere one against the other . sufficient ( if not best ) warrant , will not prove so sufficient a warrant , as if there be found a better . and so your argument , by crossing shins with it selfe , falleth to ground . again , your presbyteriall government hath neither best , nor any sufficient warrant , as wee judge , in the new testament , no nor any warrant at all in gods word . but the true forme of church-government hath both sufficient , and ( without comparison ) best warrant in the scripture . and in truth , whereas you oppose presbyteriall and independent ( as you call it ) one against the other ; let me tell you , that that which you call independent , is the onely true , originall , and primitive presbyteriall . which presbytery is proper and peculiar to every particular church of christ● and is not a presbytery collective of many churches by way of jurisdiction one , or many over each , or of a nationall church , as you terme it . for neither of these can you find either in the new testamens , or in the old. in the old we read of one church , to wit , that of the nation of the jewes : but that whole church was one intire congregation , act. 7. 38. they had one church officer over all , it is called the tabernacle of the congregation in the singuler ; and they all assembled three times in the yeare at jerusalem , in the temple , where they offered sacrifice , and not else where : so as the church was a type of every particular church of christ under the new testament , as being both one intire church and absolute , subject to no other form of government , but only that of the only law-giver and mediator jesus christ ; and no pattern of any such nationall church as you would have . every particular church now , consisting of visible saints , is under christ , as the onely head , king , governour , law-giver of it , and so is subject to no other jurisdiction then that of christ , his spirit , his word . were there none other particular church in the world , then one , as that of abrahams family , should it not be a compleat church , untill there were other churches on whose jurisdiction it should depend ; though for ordinary families , they cannot have such a number as is requisite to make up a ministeriall body , & so are bound to unite to others for this end . wee hold communion and consociation of churches for counsell in doubts , and comfort in distresse : but we deny any such combination of churches as whereby the true liberty of every particular church is taken away , and this communion of churches doth no lesse ( if not more ) prevent heresies , schismes , injustice , then your presbyteriall . nor can you shew reason to the contrary . and yet would you have our churches more perfect then those of the apostles own planting and gathering as to bee altogether exempted from heresies , schismes , injustice ? did not the apostle tell the church of corinth , there must bee heresies eve among you , that they which are approved may be made manifest ? and could those primitive churches after the apostles , preserve themselves from heresics ? how soone did the whole world groane and wonder , that it was become an arian ? and this within the fourth century after the birth of christ , when the churches were governed by the bishops and their presbyteries . and how soone did the kingdome of the beast mount up to such a height , as it overtopt all the westerne churches , and brought them under his dominion ? and for our truly and properly presbyterian churches ( your independents ) to which you deny expresse warrant in scripture ; the whole new testament is both an expresse and ample witnesse on our side . all those particular churches which the apostles planted , were all of absolute ▪ authority amongst themselves respectively , and equall one of the other . you can shew unto us no rule or example to the contrary . that in act. 15. is a transcendent , and stands alone , not to be paralleld , and therefore very impertinently objected by many , before you , as wee shall have occasion to shew afterwards . and for pattern in the primative churches after the apostles we are not curious to seeke it in the corrupt current of succeeding ages , when we find it the pure fountaine . it appeares , say the centurists , cent , 1. 7 tit●de consociatione eccles. that the government of churches in the second hundreth yeare , was almost popular , every church had equall power of ordaining or casting out , if neede were , those ministers they had ord●ined , with other things very materiall in that whole title , as also in the title de synodis privatis . and for the best reformed churches , if in them we cannot finde that patterne so fully followed as the scripture holds forth unto us , wee cruve leave without prejudice , to take it as wee finde it in the word , without the least variation . and you may know● , in the beginning of protestant reformation , could they ▪ so clearly see in the dawning , as wee may now in the meridian , if we will but open our eyes ? the reformed churches have taken up one or other of them upon the matter the maine things we contend for : 1. the church of holland receive none to the table , nor have a vote as a member of that church ; but such as first give satisfaction to the elderships and then to the congregation : and 2. have a forme of covenant propounded by them . secondly , the french churches exercise excommunication in their particular congregations , though with liberty of appeale . and this was the governement of the primitive churches in the 2d hundreth yeare , as appeares , cent. 2. c. 7. tit. de synodis : but especially . tit. de consociatione eccles. so as no long debate neede to be , if but christs word alone may take place , without the necessary accommodation of humane lawes , customes , manners of the people , as you doe plead . and lastly for appeales in case of injustice , you know , brother , that if injustice be done in any civill matter , if redresse may not be had by the mediation of the church , whereof the parties are members , then the law is open there to appeale for justice . and if it be about the churches censure for some miscarriage of a member towards the church ▪ or any member thereof , if the censure bee unjust , the party grieved may desire to have his cause heard by some other churches , who may accordingly deale with their sister-church to require a brotherly account of the whole businesse , as is the duty of all the churches in such cases . and if it be in matter of opinion , here the appeale lies principally and in the first place , to the scripture , as the supreme judge ; and if the things be obscure , & too hard for that church to resolve by the scripture , then to call in the helpe of other churches for their best information . and in summe , brother , there is no case can fall out in any church , which hath not as many helpes by a free communion of churches , wherein every churches peculiar liberties and priviledges are preserved as they ought to be : as any you can name to bee in your obligatory combination of churches , wherby the liberty of each church is by cōmon consent sold over to others , by which it ceaseth now to be a free church of christ , under his onely jurisdiction and government . so as herby great mischiefes may redound even to the purest church , when once things come to be carried by the vote of a generall or classicall assembly of divines , swaying things besides the rule , and stretching them beyond their line . and therefore famous was that saying of nazianzens , * that he never saw any good to come of generall councels ; because commonly camelion-like they change their hue with the nearest object , complying with the condition of the present times , and state : as suppose prelaticall spirits should turne to be your presbyterians , or as when ( in case the lord christ shall resume his kingdome over his churches in a civill state ) we should perhaps see some of your presbyterians as fast to turn independants , were the preferments sutable . but some may object , that one church standing by it selfe , is more subject to fall into errour , then when combined with other churches . to which i answer ; that every particular church injoying its own freedome , without any injoyned combination with other churches , may much longer preserve it selfe from danger of errour , when it hath its free choise in matters of difference or difficulty , to consult onely with those churches , which it knows to be most sound and orthodox , then when it is fast bound , and incircled with this or that combination of churches , being in number twelve or twenty , or more or lesse , whose votes must carry every controversie , according to the severall humours of such and such , at all adventure . and ( brother prynne ) the world is not so plentifull of sound spirits , as to supply every hundred in the land with twelve or twenty able and godly ministers to be of a combination . nay , you may observe what poore shifts are used for the supplying of places with godly and able ministers , which are grown so geason , that the city now is faine to be supplyed with plundered countrey ministers , in stead of their out-cast malignants : and suppose all these to be as good as they should be , where shall those country-places be supplyed ? and besides , such is the penury of good ministers ( if not of care to provide better , if possible ) that such as are for their demerits cast out of one place , are ( for i wot not what merits ) put upon some other people , where their good qualities are not knowne . being such as verifie the proverb , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ; they change their mansion , but not their manners . and besides all this , he is one very meanly gifted now adayes , that will be wooed and won to take a benefice under a hundred or sixescore pounds . and brother , why should godly ministers indeed be yoked with such earth-wormes , and mammonists , as are in some parishes , and as some of your presbyterian combinations would necessitate us unto ? if you say , if things goe amisse in lesser classes , they may be remedied in a generall assembly : then i say , there is the like reason of a generall assembly , that there is of all the severall classes put together . for , totius & partium eadem est ratio ; if all the members be corrupt , so also must the whole body be . therefore the case must needs be hard , when one or two churches in a classis or combination , that are sound , should be bound to the decisions of the rest being unsound ; and so for the generall assembly in the like proportion . the fifth question . it is reduced thus ; that , whose grounds and reasons tend inevitably to endanger , overthrow , and embroyle ecclesiasticall or civill formes of government , ought not to be suffered . but such is the independent church-government : it tends inevitably , &c. therefore it ought not to be suffered , i deny the assumption : the grounds and reasons of true church-government , do not in their own nature tend to the indangering , overthrowing , and embroiling of ecclesiasticall or civill formes of government ( horm . confess . sect. 11. of the confess . of a●spurg . art . 7. ) power ecclesiasticall no more hindreth the civill , then the skill of musicke , neither is it to be confounded with civill . and ibid. they , to wit , the prelates , transforme the church into a humane government . for they would doe all in imitation of civill government . but if they produce any such effect , it is onely accidentall , and the maine cause is in such ecclesiasticall or civill bodies , when they shew some antipathy in their constitution to christs kingdome and government , by their opposing or oppressing of it . hereupon christ saith ; * think not that i am come to send peace on the earth ; i came not to send peace , but a sword . and it was the preaching of the gospel of the kingdome , both by christ , and his apostles , for which they were exclaimed against , and persecuted , as troublers of the state , both ecclesiastick and politick , as movers of sedition , and perverters of the people , and the like . and will you thereupon conclude , that the preaching of the gospel , and setting up of christs kingdome in his churches , is a troubler of the state , and a mover of sedition , and a seducer of the people , because hierarchicall government hath an antipathy with christs spirituall kingdome , and church-government ? the sixth question . the summe where of is : that which from the beginning of the preaching of the gospel downwards , till this present age , had no being in the world , can doubtlesse be no church-government of christs , or his apostles . but such ( say you ) is the government of independent churches . therefore not christs ; or the apostles church-government . i deny your assumption . and for further answer thereto , i referre you to my answer to your third and fourth question , where is cleerely proved , that all the churches , founded and planted by christ and his apostles , were in themselves respectively absolute and free churches , which though they had communion with all their sister-churches , yet you can never prove your classicall , or synodicall jurisdiction of either a provinciall church ( as you call it ) or a generall counsell over every particular church , to have the least footing , or beeing at all in the scripture . 2. in the ecclesiasticall histories for the first 200. yeers we finde ( as was noted above ) sufficient ground for it ; but none for the combined coercive presbytery ; let that be shewn ; afterwards indeed , as times grow worse , you finde your p●r●archall , metropoliticall , prelaticall , nationall , provinciall church-governments , generall and provinciall councels , subordination and subjection of the lesser churches to the greater , by which very meanes the papall antichristian kingdome came gradually to be erected ; ( as is noted before ) but can you shew us the least print of one footstep in the word of god , of any such hierarchie , or of any such subordination and subjection of one church to another ; and if the mystery of iniquity began to worke even in the apostles own times , which was the very hierarchie it selfe , in the affection of primacy ; as we see practised by di●trepes , who is noted to bee {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , a lover of primacy , or preheminence , and that even above the apostle john himselfe ; with other like sutable practises ; this mistery growing up and spreading mightily by degrees , after the apostles were dead , and so prevailing as a generall deluge over the face of the earth , as nothing could bee seene but diocesan bishops seas , overflowing every where : therefore were there never such churches extant ? but suppose there were no examples to be found of it in church story , which yet we have proved the contrary , neverthelesse , you know brother , when a mans evidences of lands are lost , there be publicke records , as the rowles of chancerie , where they may be found againe . and if there they be found , will you not allow them , because the man cannot otherwise shew them ? now we have the sacred scripture , where our evidences are safely recorded . suffice it then , that there we shew them . the contrary opinion doth manifestly establish traditions unwritten , as the papists doe . and to give the reader some intimation how the churches of christ came in time ( and that in short time after the apostles ) to lose their liberties ; i crave leave of you to note that passage in ambrose ( who lived within the fourth century ) upon 1 tim. 5. synagoga , & postea ecclesia , &c. the iewes synagogue , and afterwards the ▪ christian church had elders , without whose counsell nothing was done in the church . which by what neglect it grew out of use , i know not , unlesse is were perhaps the sl●ath , or rather pride of the teachers , whilst , alone , they would seeem to be some body . so ambrose the bishop of millan confessed . i confesse i cannot shew many such instances or records , as perhaps your selfe in your multifarious reading may observe : but this one , from such a reverend and ancient author too , of pious memory , may serve instead of many ; considering also that this is the greater rarity , and antiquity , and much to be wondred at , how it escaped the expurgatorie index , by those that were the first fathers of the mystery of iniquity , that they did not quite expunge this record also , that not a pin of the old patterne should remaine . now that the church this ancient there speaketh of , was particular congregation , answerable to the synagogue , governed by the counsell of its own elders , cannot be denyed . whereby all men may ▪ cleerly see , in how short a time the governement of churches , instituted by christ and his apostles , came to bee changed from being free churches , to become servile and subject to the usurpation of the greater , the prelates and their clergie now making up the church , as if the congregations themselves were no churchs , as being stripped of all their rights and priviledges , yea and of crist their king , his kingdome now being turned into an oligarcy ▪ or oligarchill tyranny , mixed of two of the worst forms of government ; though you seem to put oligarchy in the ranke of the the best ; but i suppose you would have said , instead of oligarchy , ( having named monarchicall , and aristocraticall ) democratie : oligarchy being heterogeneall to the other two . but enough of this . the seventh question . thus reduced ▪ those churches , which do not conforme their church-government to some one or other publike forme of civill government , dividing themselves into many parochiall churches , dioceses , provinces , but doe gather , churches not out of infidels , but of men already converted to ▪ and setled in the chiristian faith , and do admit them into the church by way of covenant ; no one example , or direct scripture , reason , or authority can be produced , to satisfie conscience of the lawfulnesse of them . but such are the independent churches , they do not conforme as afore ; therefore conscience cannot be satisfied of the lawfulnesse of them . the argument ( or question ) containes many branches , scarce reducible to one head : but i have bundled them in one coard , as well as i could. and for answer , first this question is coincident with all that went before , and so is already in that respect answered . secondly , your parallell betwixt the civill association and ecclesiastick , is not grounded on scripture ; for neither god taught , neither the churches practised any such necessarie union and dependance of one church on another , though they might have done it , and had need of it , as being in times of persecution ( which hindered it not , no more then it doth in france now ) 2. you confidently affirm , that all ecclesiasticall histories testifie so much , which is manifestly untrue , as hath been shewed before . 3. though churches springing out of other churches had dependence on them , what is this to churches that are far distant one from another , and never had such a ground of relation one to another ? besides the harmonie of confessions , which you quote for you ▪ ( though i finde not that in those places they say any thing to the point ) yet sect. 11. cap. of the keyes , that the keyes are committed to each particular , even the least ecclesiasticall society . thirdy , christs true churches here on earth , are not to be * limited to this or that place ; as , because there are so many parishes , dioceses , provinces , in a civill state , therfore those must be so many fixed , parocihall , diocesan , provinciall churches . and here , brother prynne , would reduce ( tanquam ex postliminio ) the provinciall , diocesan , parochiall church ▪ government , to the same forme it had before ? would you have the provinciall arichbishops ▪ with their diocesan bishops , and parochiall clergie , or priests set up again ? for a prouince hath relation to its provinciall , and a diocese to its diocesan , and a parish ( to speak in the old dialect ) to its parish-priest . da veniam verbo . and as for division of provinces , dioceses , and parishes , into so many churches , you know where and when it began . for in the yeer 267. dyonisius bishop of rome made this division : which division turned the churches into a babylonish confusion ; when now all that dwelt together in every parish , and so in every diocese , who ever they were , tag , and rag , must make up a church , as so many members do one body : whereas the churches planted by the apostles , were called and gathered out of the wide world , where the word of god came , and took place . so as not every citie became a church , but so many as were called in every citie . paul writes not to all in corinth , but to the church there , consisting of the saints only . but you object the gathering of churches , not of infidels , but of men already converted to , and setled in the christian faith , of which forme of congregating churches , you say you could never discern example , or any direct scripture to satisfie conscinces . we would gladly say amen to that assertion , that the whole nation is christian , established in the faith ; but if not , you dispute ex falso supposito . may it please you then , brother , to take notice of the example both of john baptist and of christ himself , and of the apostles , who * all of them did call and gather christian churches out of the jewes church : which might suffice to satisfie any mans conscience in this point ; and so much the more , when they consider this is a time of reformation , and we have all taken a covenant each to go before other , in reforming not only our selves , but all others within our line , according to the word of god . and again , the case between our reformation at this time , and that of the jewes church , is much alike : for as th a was the gospell-reformation , so is this ; as that was a gathering of such churches out of that of the jewes , as acknowledged christ to be their onely king and law-giver , to govern consciences and churches by his word , when the rest of that church , even the main body of it , did reject christ , and renounce him for their king , this being the very title set over him on his crosse , for which they crucified him : so the preaching up of christs kingdome in these dayes , is that which calleth and gathereth those unto christ , who acknowledge him alone for their king to govern them ; and this out of those , that doe not , or will not submit unto his kingly government , but depend upon the sole determination of men , what kinde of church-governement they will set up in the land , which you tell us must be sutable to the lawes and customes of the realme , and manners of the people . but there is yet one thing more , for which you say , you can see no ground , and that is particular church-government . why , brother , why should the lawfulnesse of this be doubted , whether explicit or implicit ? it is the churches wisedome and care , yea , conscience and duty too , as we humbly conceive to admit of none but such as can give some account of the worke of grace wrought in them , though but in the least degree , yet in truth , so far as we may discern them to be saints : for such onely are fit members of a church , or body of christ , so as to partake of those holy ordinances of christ , which none but visible saints ought to partake of . and who are fit to receive the seales of the covenant , but such as professe to be in covenant ? and surely if any shall refuse to make this profession of their being in covenant , as being ashamed thereof , with what conscience can the church admit them into fellowship ? and you know this is a time of reformation , and we have long been under a yoke of antichristian-government , and of humane ordinances in the worship of god ; wherein we have all violated our vow and covenant made in our names in our baptisme : now , doth not reason require , that we should renew our covenant in our own persons , when we come to enter into the way of reformation , and that in as full a manner as possibly we can ? and when the people of god came out of babylon to inhabit ierusalem again , they made a covenant among themselves , when seeking the way with their faces thitherward , they say , come and let us joyn ourselves to the lord in a perpetuall covenant that shall not bee forgotten . the case is ours in a great measure , who are now inquiring the war to sion , with our faces thitherward ; and shall we be abashed to come to sion from all the reliques of babylon , and not incite one another , as they did , to enter into a perpetuall covenant with the lord christ , as our onely king not to be forgotten ? and the like wee read ezra 10. 5. and nehem. 9. 38. so did king asa , 2 chron. 15. 12. now if any require an example hereof in the new testament , i answer , what needs it , when wee have it in the old ? what example have we in the new testament for baptizing of infants ? yet having a * commandement in the old for circumcising the infants of beleeving abraham , as being included in the same covenant with faithfull abraham ▪ the intaile of this covenant never yet out off , but reaching to all abrahams seed , walking in the steps of abrahams faith now under the gospel ; infants of beleeving parents professing to be in covenant , have the same right unto baptisme , as being within the covenant , which the infants of beleeving ▪ abraham had unto circumcision ( in stead whereof baptisme by gods institution succeeded ) and this by a strict charge and command from god ( gen. 17. 13 , 14. ) which is as strong now for baptizing of infants of beleeving parents , as it was to the infants of beleeving abraham for circumcision . again , what example , yea or precept is there of giving women the lords supper in the new testament ? yet upon good consequence it is drawn from thence . but this by the way . and to conclude this point , what reason can any man bring against this particular church-covenant ? and if any doe disrelish it , they are onely such as take a disgust of the way itselfe , and then no marvell if every thing about it be quarrelled and questioned , though no other reason can be given of it , but a nolumus : such as the jewes gave when they said of christ , nolumus : * we will not have this man to reigne over us . which speech was the more notorious , as being delivered by an embassage , a solemne act of state of the eldership , and they his own citizens , though a little after ( vers. 27. ) he declares them his enemies , and for this very thing , that they would not hee should reigne over them , commandeth them to be brought and slaine before him . but this by the way , though not unworthy of wise mens sad observation . object . but it will be said , wee have covenanted already in the nationall covenant . answ. this is against things upon supposition , that we were convinced of the evill of them , but not about our own persons , as enquiring whether we indeed are willing to give up ourselves to the lord iesus . 2. this was put in by such outward authority , that many for feare tooke it , which a church-covenant under the gospell ( where the people are to be such as come willingly ) will not beare ; for under the law indeed there was another order , but appointed by god , that they might be forced to the covenant that they had received in their ▪ fathers : but our fathers were over-awed , and secondly , no such order now . the eighth question . this question , though somewhat involved and perplexed with many branches , yet the scope being to prove a nationall church , and so a common presbyterian classicall government , to which particular congregations , persons , ought to be subordinate , and thereby an apparent subversion of the novell independent invention . ( these are your words . ) the whole i reduce into form thus : where there bee infallible proofes of nationall churches , there of necessity must be a common presbyterian , classicall government , to which particular congregations , persons , ought to be subordinate , to the apparent subversion of the novel independent invention . but there be infallible proofes of nationall churches ; as the catholick church , the nationall church of the jewes , the synodall assembly of the apostles , acts 15. who made and sent binding decrees to the churches ; seconded with all oecumenicall , nationall , provinciall councels , synods , and the church-government exercised throughout the world in all christian realmes , states , from their first reception of the gospell , till this present ; compared with twelve places of scripture at the least , &c. therefore there must be of necessity , a common presbyterian classicall government , to which particular congregations , persons , ought to be subordinate , to the apparent subversion of the novell independent inventions . now for answer to this large argument , brieflly : and first , to the proposition . i deny that you can bring any infallible proofes , or one proof , that there either are , or ever have been any nationall churches by any other institution , but meerly humane ; nor any one of divine institution , but onely that of the jewes in the old testament , and now wholly dissolved ; of which we have spoken sufficiently before : and which also was not onely nationall , but in a manner oecumenick and universall , as appeares acts 2. and such therefore as i hope you contend not for now ; for then there would be a pope , as there was an high priest then &c. and brother , you must give us leave to stand upon this , as for our lives , that we dare not admit of any churches , as the true and genuine churches of christ , which are not of his owne institution , that is , such as are not called and gathered by the voyce of christ in his word , and by that scepter of his swayed , and by that alone law of his governed . and therefore be intreated , good brother , not to presse upon us such your churches , whose not onely institution in their severall divisions , but government also in their combinations , is meerly humane , and therefore as a house founded on a sand , which against a storme cannot stand you must first be able to found your nationall church in the scripture , or assure yourselfe , if a man will build upon it a common presbyteriall classicall government , and dwell there , he will bring an old house upon his head , when god shall begin to storm it . but to come to your perticular instances in the assumption , for the proofe of your nationall church . the first is , the catholicke church throughout the world . what is this to a nationall church ? though the catholick include all the true churches throughout the world , yet doth it not therefore conclude any church to be nationall . the second instance is , the nationall church of the jewes , and from hence you can conclude as little for your nationall churches ; as before we have shewed . for bring us any one nationall , that is one intire church , or congregation , as that of the jewes was : or , that is of one family , as that was : or , that is a type of christs spirituall kingdome , as that was : or , that is the universall church of god visible on earth , as that was : or , that is governed by the like lawes , that that was : when your selfe doe confesse , that the government of your nationall churches is to be regulated by humane lawes , customes , manners , and not by gods word alone ; whereas that of the jewes was wholly governed by gods own law , and not at all by the lawes of men , untill it came to be corrupted , contrary to the expresse law of god . and you confesse also , that the government of your nationall churches is alterable , according to the lawes , customes , manners of severall nations : whereas the government of the church of the iewes was unalterable , till christ himselfe did put a period to that oeconomy . in a word , your nationall churches are a mixed multitude , consisting for the greatest part of prophane persons , being as a confused lu●p , whereof there are nine parts of leaven to one of pure flowre , so as the whole is miserably soured , and the flowre made altogether unsavoury : but that of the iewes , in its naturall and externall constitution , was all holy , * an holy nation , a royall priesthood , a peculiar people , * all the congregation holy , every one of them : so as in no one particular , doe your nationall churches hold parallell with that of the iewes , no not in the least resemblance ▪ your third instance is the synodall assembly of the apostles , elders , and brethren at ierusalem , acts 15. who made and sent binding decrees , to the churches . and what of this , brother ? therefore nationall churches , or generall councels , or provinciall , have the like power to make and impose binding decrees , and send them to the churches ? why , first of all , that assembly was not any nationall church representative . secondly , neither was it a generall or provinciall councell . thirdly , being an assembly of the apostles ▪ with the elders and brethren , it could not erre : for the apostles had infallibility of judgement , being guided by the holy ghost infallibly , and the elders and brethren did assent to their determinations . and was there ever such a synodicall assembly since that ? had euer any councell besides that , infallibility of judgement ? shew it , brother , and then wee will beleeve they may make binding decrees , and wee will submit unto them . nay , dare any assembly of men on earth , say , it seemed good to the holy ghost , and us ? that 's enough for the black mouth of blasphemy , the roman lying oracle . but in your second thoughts , you traverse this * place more largely , which wee shall consider when we come to it . in the mean time , what i have here and before said , may suffice to stay the readers stomace . but you adde , all this is seconded with all occumenicall , nationall , provinciall councels , synods , and the church-government throughout the world in all christian realmes , states , &c. alas , brother , all these put together , are in no sort sutable to make a second to that apostolicall assembly ; they cannot hold the least proportion with it , to make a second to that unsampled sample , though they make never so great a summe . and whereas you make the up-shot of this your question , to the apparent sub version of novell independent invention , ( these be your words ) we have proved it to be neither mans invention , but gods own institution , nor novell , as having its foundation in the new testament ; nor yet independent , otherwise then that it depends not upon any humane authority , or jurisdiction out of it self ; not upon any such conformity to humane lawes , or customes , or manners of every nation or people , as you speake of . neither doe you take away our argument from the most usuall phrase of the apostles calling the churches in the plurall , by saying , historians often speake of the churches in england : for they doe not so speak when they mean the congregations , but the material temples : but speake of england as one church when they understand the people ; and there hath not been shewen any dependence of those churches , as the dependency of the english churches is knowne . the ninth question . thus reduced in summe : that liberty which the apostles had and used in ordaining , supplying , instituting new rites , orders , canons , &c. for the churches peace and welfare , they transmitted to posteritie : but the apostles had and used such liberty &c. therefore the same liberty have all churches in the world , in all ages succeeding the apostles , in ordaining , supplying , instituting new rites , orders , canons , for the churches peace and welfare . i answer to the proposition : 1. that the apostles themselves had no other libertie to doe any thing about the calling , planting , ordering , and regulating of churches , but what they had immediarely given them by christ , and his spirit . 2. this liberty so given them reached no further , then to those things onely which were given them in charge , and which they accordingly , as faithfull stewards , did practise concerning the churches . even as christ himselfe , being the son of god , and set over his house , was faithfull in all things , doing nothing , but what he had by speciall commission and command from the father . so as ▪ if the son himselfe , god blessed for ever , took not the liberty to himself to doe what himselfe pleased , as mediator , though as the sonne he thought it no robbery to be equall with god the father ; but did every thing as he had received commandment from him ▪ how much lesse have the servants of god any liberty to doe what pleaseth them , but that , and those things alone , which they have in command from their master . if therefore they who prosesse to succeed the apostles in their severall generations , will challenge the same liberty , which the apostles had and used about the churches of god , they must first of all shew us their immediate commission from christ , as the apostles had . secondly , they must all shew us , that what they doe in church-matters , under colour and pretence of apostolicall liberty , is none other , but what they have by expresse command from christ by his spirit . and thirdly , because they are not able to shew this , they must use their liberty no further , then the lists and limits of scripture doe permit , which holds forth an exact and perfect rule , for all precisely to observe , without the least variation . as knowing that severe law of god , often used in scripture , and wherewith , as with a bounder-stone , the whole book of god is closed up , and that with a solemne protestation of christ himselfe : if any man shall adde unto these things , god shall adde unto him the plagues that are written in this book ; and if any man shall diminish ought thereof , god shall take away his part out of the book of life , and out of the holy citie . but some will haply object ; this is meant , not in point of church-government , discipline , rites , ceremonies , as left to mans liberty to ordaine , adde , supply , institute , according to the diversity of the lawes and customes of every nation ; but in matter of doctrine , story , and prophecy . to which i answer ( though sufficiently noted before , and now in one word ) if god were so exact about the forme of the tabernacle , ( a type of christs church under the gospell ) to have all things observed according to the patterne , even unto the least pin ; what reason can any reasonable man give , why christ , the same law-giver ▪ and patterne it selfe , should be lesse carefull over his church in the new testament , so as to leave it at six and seven , to the liberty of all kingdomes and nations of the world , to set up in the church what government , discipline , rites , ceremonies , canons , they pleased , upon what pretence soever as for the churches peace and welfare ? hath not the opening of this one sluce , let in such an inundation of all manner of humane inventions in this kind , as hath wel-nigh drowned the whole world in all manner of superstition and errour ? therefore , my deare brother prinne , assure your selfe , not all the wits , not all the learning in the world , will be able to assert this your assertion , but that it must of necessity fall to around with its owne weight ; and there ▪ brother ▪ let it lie , or father die , and bury it there , whence it came . all that christ appointed is exactly to be followed , though christ was not so ●●act in circumstantials under the gospell ; because 1. that was a typicall and figurative worship . 2. christ now looks more to substantialls , joh. 4. 24. wherein he is more strict , 1 cor. 5. and where you say , that as in the apostles times , christians multiplied , so also their churches , church-officers , and their church-government , discipline varied : consider that here was no variation of the rule ; but by degrees the rule of church-government and discipline was perfected , not varied . the temple was seven yeares in building , first hewing , squaring , then erecting stone after stone , timber after timber ▪ each in his proper place , here was no variation of the frame and forme of the temple all this while , but the worke went up day by day , till it came to perfection , according to the patterne in writing given to david by the spirit . even so , while the spirituall temple is framing , the daily goings up of it by order after order , and rule after rule , is no variation , but a graduall tending to perfection , till all be finished ; as we now see the whole frame of church-government for all true evangelicall churches so compleated in the new testament , as nothing under the paine aforesaid , may either be diminished , or added to it . and the same orders are prescribed to all the churches ; so ordaine i in all churches , saith the apostle , 1 cor. 7. 17. so for the collection for the saints , and for the first day of the weeke for publick meetings ( as before ) the same order he gives to the church of corinth which he doth for the churches of galatia , 1 cor. 16. 1 , 2. so officers chosen and ordayned in every church , act. 14. 23. tit. 1. 5. 7. so as if one church for the smalnesse of it have fewer officers , and another church for the largenesse of it more in number ( as the church in jerusalem had need of seven deacons , both for the magnitude of the congregation , and the multitude of the poore therein , act. 6. ) yet this makes no variation in the forme of church-government , as differing one from another either for substance , or circumstance , saving onely socundum magis & minus , as a little man is a man , as well as the tallest man . in a word , those arguments , which you by way of derision set downe in your owne forme of words , with their ergoes , for as much as they are of your own devising , i therefore leave them with you to consider better of them . onely one i cannot passe by , without wrong to christ , to his word , to his spirit , to his apostles . every man ( say you ) in his infancy , is borne destitute of religion , of the use of speech , reason , understanding , faith , legs , &c. ergo , he ought to continue so , when he is growne a man . yet this is the maine argument of some independents ; say you : o brother ! of what independents ? as whence this argument ? because they hold , that in nothing they ought to swerve from the exact rule , gods word , for the government of churches ? and doe you compare the scripture ( as it was in the apostles time ) to a child in his innocency , destitute , & c ? so as , if we will not transgresse the bounds of scripture for church-government , we doe as much in effect , as argue , every man in his infancy is borne destitute of religion , &c. ergo , he ought to continue so , when he is growne a man ? we dare goe no further , then the scripture leads us ; therefore we are a company of infants . good brother , call in these extravagants . 2. we say the churches were as perfect then as ever since ; they had all ordinances , the most eminent officers , the most large gifts , &c. and as many in a place called to the faith , as can be shewen in any one place since , to have come in voluntarily to the gospell , act. 8. 10. 12. chap. 21. 20. the tenth question . this question is reduced thus ; such as cannot produce any one solid reason , why they ought not ( in point of conscience ) willingly submit to a presbyteriall government , in case it shall be established among us , by the generall consent of the synod , and parliament , as most consonant to gods word , the lawes & government of our realme : ought to be reputed to be in a high degree of obstinacy , singularitie , arrogancy , self-ends , and peremptory schisme . but independents cannot produce any one solid reason , why they ought not so to doe , as aforesaid . therefore independents ought to be reputed to be in a high degree of obstinacy , singularity , arrogancy , self-ends , and peremptory schisme . now truly brother , a heavie charge you lay upon those poore creatures you doe so becall independents . as 1. of obstinacy . if that be obstinacy , against mens consciences not to yield blind obedience to mens commands in point of religion . 2. of singularity . if that be singularity , for a few to enter in at the strait gate , and to walk in at the narrow way . if that be singularity , to doe that which the multitude will not doe : to ●o●ne under the government of christs kingdome , in the government of our consciences , and of his churches which is a principle ▪ you your selfe in termes cannot , dare not deny . 3. of arrogancy : if that be arrogancy , for one church not to exalt it selfe over another , or for pastors not to lord it over their flocks . 4. of selfe-ends : if that be self seeking ▪ which ( if any other ) is a self-denying , and a taking up of our crosse dayly , as malefactors ready to be crucified , as without which resolution wee cannot follow christ . if that be selfe-seeking , to strip our selves of the preferments and favours of the world , to be exposed naked to the reproach of all , to be accounted the out-casts of the world , and the off-scouring of all things , as at this day . and lastly , of peremptory schisme : if that be schisme whereby we ought to separate our selves from all doctrines contrary to what is delivered , rom. 16 , 17. and so farre as is possible , from all the ●udiments of the world , from the ordinances of men , which are not a●ter christ , that so wee might adhere to him , and walke in him , being taught by him , as the t●●th is in iesus . but ●o● , that these independents should undergoe all these , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , hard speeckes , and yet not to be able to shew one solid rason for it , surely then , a fools cap and a bell were fittest for them . but i hope , brother , if you have but read hitherto , and well weighed in a just ballance , the many reasons we have already given you , perhaps in some of them at least , if not in all , you will find something , that may challenge the title of solid , in your clearer and more solid judgment . now to your argument ▪ first of all i might deny the necessity of the consequence of your proposition . for it is not necessary that every truth should cease to be truth , because every one cannot shew a solid reason for it . the fire hath an essentiall form , and yet no man can find it ou● , it burneth , yet none can shew a solid reason why . the martyrs some of them professed they could not dispute for that truth they held : but ( say they ) we can dye for it . and what if that church-government , which your silly independents hold , be a truth , and yet some of them not able to shew one solid reason for it ? must it therefore not bee a truth ? as the apostle saith ; what if some did not beleeve ? shall their unbeleefe make the saith of god without effect ? but i flatly deny your assumption ; and affirme , that your independents both have , and doe , and can produce many solid reasons , why they may not , ought not in point of conscience , willingly submit to such a presbiteriall government , as you prescribe , because framed by the generall consent of a synod and parliament , conc●●ved by them as consonant to gods word , the lawes and government of our realme . one reason is , consonant to gods word , and conforme to the lawes of this , or any other realme , cannot stand together ; as before is shewed . and the reason hereof is , because christs kingdome is so transcendent , so absolute , distinct , independent , ( if you will ) as it is not obliged to conforme and stoop to humane lawes , and peoples manners , as you put a necessity upon it . a second reason ; because you require obedience to that , which men shall conceive consonant to gods vvord , &c. touched also before , and now againe to put you in mind . and therefore upon this ground we ought not in point of conscience to subject and captivate our saith to mens opinions . a third reason , why we may not doe it , is , because you require absolute obedience to the generall consent of assembly and parliament . now wee dare not pin our faith upon generalitie of mens opinions , the generality of the votes of the jewes state carried it away , to crucifie their king . if the whole world might vote this day , the generality would be against christ , as hee is indeed the onely anoyn●ed king , priest , and prophet . what if the generality vote amisse , while yet they may conceive all to bee right , because consonant to what they most ●ffect ? no , though orthodox and godly , as was shewed before in the instance of paphnutius in the councell of nice , a fourth reason ; because we acknowledge christ alone to be lord of our conscience , and no power of men on earth herein to be joyned with him . harm. confess . sect. 11. the magistrate rules the body , not the minde . and therefore we dare not subjucate our conscience to humane lawes , customes , and manners , as to gods word , with which you doe so equally yoake them . so as wee answer you with the apostles , when all the syn●dri●n of the iewish state with one generall voyce interd●cted them from preaching in christs name : whether it be equall in the sight of god , to o●ey you rather then god , judge ye . a ●●●●● reason : because the holy ghost by the apostle expresly condemns all humane ordinances in matters of faith and religion , whereof church-government is a branch . and a doct●inall part , so as mans law therein may not bind the conscience ; as col. 2. from verse 8. to the end of the chapter . a sixth reason : because it is antichristian to deny iesus to bee the christ , that is , the onely king , priest , and prophet of his church hee is an antichrist , that denieth any of these three offices . but to deny christ to be the onely king of his church , is to deny him in one of his incommunicable offices . and they thus deny iesus to bee the christ , that place man with christ in his throne , that set humane lawes and customes of all nations cheek by jowle with the word of god . here jesus is denied to be the christ . i could here adde many more reasons to those : but these may suffise , that you may see there bee some reasons which your independents can produce , and those so solid , as the gates of hell shall not prevaile against . but , say you , if we thus claime exemption from such binding decrees of men in the matters of christ , and that in point of conscience , then may also papists , anabaptists , and all other ●ects claim the like exemptiens , upon the like groun●s . brother , for that , i hope you will put a difference between orthodox churches , and he●erodox . but i say againe , for any mans conscience , bee it never so erroneous , as that of papists , yet certainly the conscience of such simply considered in it selfe , nor you , nor any man in the world hath any thing to doe , further then to instruct and admonish and labour to enforme and iectifie : enforce it you may not . but shall we tolerate popery , and so idolatry in our land ▪ i answer ; ●t is one thing to tolerate popery and idolatry publickly in a land , and another to tolerate a man in his conscience . magistrates may not tolerate open popery and idolatry to be set up in the land : but the conscience o● a papist , they are no masters , or judges of . if the civill magistrate see any of gods commandements actually violated , hee beareth not the sword for naught ; evill actions he must punish : but hee hath no power , over the conscience of any , to punish a man for that , so long as he makes no open breach of gods commandements , or the just lawes of the land and so in the rest . and , brother , in your twelfth question , you confesse so much reproving ( but how justly ) you independents for censuring the very hearts and spirituall estates of others ; and alleadging that scripture , that forbids men to judge , because god onely knows mens hearts . now , brother , that which you deny to others , as to bee judges of mens hearts , and spirituall estates , why will you either assume it to your selfe , or attribute it to others , by placing them in christ● throne , and thereby displacing christ himselfe ? as the apostle saith , who art thou that judgest anothers servant ? to his master he standeth , or falleth . much more , who art thou , that judgest gods servant ? and ver. 10. and why dost thou judge thy brother ? or why dost thou set at ●aught thy brother ? we shall all stand at the iudgement se●t of christ . christ therefore is the ●ole iudge o● every mans conscience ; even hee alone , that is the iudge of quicke and dead . and brother , let me put it to your conscience , doe you think it equall , that either your conscience should be a rule of mine , or mine of yours ? and if no one mans conscience may be the rule of anothers ; certa●nly neither may all the mens consciences in the world be the iudge of any one mans . 2 how ever we finde neither rule , example , nor reason from scripture , to force men to religion originally ; ye the r●bins say , if man kept the seven precepts of noah , hee might not bee forced further . the eleventh question . concerning this question , it containeth in it nothing but grievous invectives against the way you call independent : you call it a seminary of schismes and dangerous divisions in church , state : so did tertullus the ●ews advocate against paul , charge him for a pestilent fellow , and a mover of sedition among al the iews , throughout the world , acts 24. 5. you pretend to ponder it in the ballance of scripture , or right reason ; but you neither shew us scripture not right reason , to ballance it in . you call it a floodgate to let in an inundation of herefies , errors , sects , libertinisme , and lawlesnesse , without means of suppressing them , when introduced . for this you bring mr. williams his bloody tenent . now suppose him , or his booke , hereticall : will you make the way of christ so too ? there was one judas a traitor , shall therefore all the rest of the apostles , or their apostolicall calling , be so too ? you alleadge also anabaptisticall , ●ntinomian , hereticall , ath●ishicall opinions , as of the soules mortality , divorce at pleasure : will you therefore father all these upon ch●ists kingly government ? in luthers time ●undry heresies sprung up ; was luther therefore either the cause or occasion of them ? doe we not know , that mothes are bied in the parest cloth ? and the dunghills send forth strongest savours when the sunne shines hottest . is either the cloth the proper cause of the moth , or the sunne of the stinking vapour ? never greater errors have bin , then since the gospell hath clearly shined forth . true it is indeed , that th●se divisions , and diversities of opinions , are with bleeding hearts to be bewailed : but shall the gospell of the kingdome beare the burthen of all ? this were , as with the christians in rome in neroes time ; when any judgement of god fell upon the city , he would still im●●●e it to the christians , and punish them for it . but we are taught better . when the good ▪ husband-man sowed pure wheat in in his field , the enemy came and supersemina●ed tares ; shall wee therefore blame the wheat , because the t●res come up with them ? but that you impu●e to this way libertinisme and lawlesnesse : good brother conside● , are we libertines ? or are wee lawlesse ? nay may wee not herein plead for our selves , that in all things we indeavou● to conforme ou● selves wholly to the law of christ● and if many thing we off●nd ju●●ly any just law o●●h● l●n● , wee re●u●e not to suffer . only , brother , le● not ●a● impe●iall edict be revived , that if any confessed themselves to be christians they should be put to death ; so such as you call 〈…〉 , should for this very name suffer . as tertullian said , nomen pro●●●i●ine , when the very name of christian was taken for a crime ▪ ●nd for meanes of suppressing errors , what meanes could suppresse those many errors that sprung up to the successive ages o● the church ? was not the word of god the onely meanes , and not humane power ? yea humane power is as well a meanes to maintain heresies , as to suppresse them . you know what constantine and his sonne did to maintain the arrian heresie . and orthodox independent churches are as good means as any other ; together with the care and countenance of the magistrate , if it may be had , to defend them , and inable them to send forth labourers , without which the presbytery will bee as barren , breast and womb , as any other . the twelfth question . the sundry passages of this question , as i find them scattered along , i shall glean them , and so bundle them up for a conclusion at this time : for this question seems to be a lerna of queries . and first , you quarrell the title of independencie . truly , brother , none of all those whom you thus intitle , doe at all glory in this name , so as to give you thanks for your so often stiling them thus in one poore sheet of paper , seeing th●y cannot imagine you doe it honoris gratia , while every where you set it as a brand . notwithstanding we are not so ashamed of it , as utterly to disclaime it ; and that for two reasons . first , for distinction sake between us , and that which you call your presbyteriall government . the second is , because this word independent is to signifie , that we hold all particular churches of christ , to bee of equall authority , and none to have or exercise jurisdiction over another , but that each church is under christs government , as the sole head , king ▪ lord , law give● thereof . but wee would not that you should give us this as a nick name , or a name of reproach , or badge of scorne : no● that you should call us so , as if we denied subjection to civill authority in matters of civill government nor yet that you should mean such an independe●cie , as if we held not good correspondence with all sister-churches , by way of conseciation , consultation , communion , communication , mutuall consolation , supportation and ( in a word ) in all things , duties , offices , as wherein christs kingdom is held up , the graces of the churches exercised , & the liberties of each church preserved intire , which is the glory of christ , which we have touched before . and therefore , brother , you mightily mistake the matter , when you interpret independency , as not needing both the communion and assistance of other persons , nations , churches . then secondly you question , whether the nationall covenant dothin sundry respects strongly ingage the nation against independency ? truly , brother , not at all , so long as all our reformation is to be reduced to , and regulated by the word of god . and that is a sure foundation , whereon our independencie dependeth . in which respect the nation is by the covenant ●●g●ged for independencie . thirdly , you queree , whether if independencie ( rightly taken still as before ) if stript of all disg●ising pretences , be not pharisaicall , vainglorious , selfe-conceitednesse , &c. here , brother , you lash us with a whip of many cords , but that our armour is p●oo● . so you have done more then ten times , yea all along . and that all this should come from a friend , a brother , a suffe●er , from a companion , & counsellor , how hard is it to be born ? 〈…〉 you tell us of disguising pretences , if stript ; and for this , you have provided an unma●king for us . o brother , we have no such d●sguisings , as to feare your unmaskings . we may in this boldly answere with the apostle , 1 i hess . 2. 3. 4. 5. and for pharisaicall ▪ spirituall pride , vain-glory , singularity , selfe-constitednesse of superlative holinesse , which as dirt you throw so liberally in our face ; to this brother , i will say no more but this : s● sat est accusasse ▪ quis innoeens erit ? it a bare and malicious accu●a●ion be e●ou●h to fasten a crime , who shall be innocent ? and did you ever enter into our hearts , to see what secret spirituall tumours , and apostumations be there ? and if not , how come you presently , in the very same sentence , and with the same breath to blow all this besmearing dust into your owne face ? for you charge us with passing uncharitable censures upon mens hearts , and spiritual ●states ; of which ( say you ) god never made us iudges , and forbids us for to judg because he onely knowes mens hearts ( as was noted before . ) now then , brother , why doe you thus judge the hearts and spirituall estates of your brethren ? consider it well in cold blood . and , brother , what doe you see in the independencie , that you should thus judg them ? the tree is knowne by the fruits . are they ambitions of preferments , of glory of the world , of favour of great ones , of praise of men that doe voluntarily forsake all , and strip themselves of all to follow naked christ ▪ pharisees indeed loved the prayse of men more then the praise of god . that 's pharisaicall , so in the rest . therefore brother , tell not the world what malice may suggest unto you to think of us , but what you ●●e or observe in us . and yet , brother , the ●n●e of charity is , that you should first tell your brother privately o● his fault , before you blaze it to the world . but thus at least we come to know our ●a●●t . and what is it ? wee doe , ( say you d●●m our selves too transcendently hol● s●●stified and religious a●ov●o he●s ; that we esteem them altogether unworthy of yea who●● exclude them from our communion & ourch-society , as publicans , heathens , or p●of●ne ●ersons ( though perhaps as good , or better then our selvs ) unlesse they will submit to their church-covenants , & government , ref●sing ●l true brotherly familiarity ▪ society with them . so you . now , brother pryn , i confesse i am one of th●se , whom you call independents ▪ and did you ever observe any such supercisious strang●nesse of ●●r●●age in me towards you , and other of your and my friend ▪ 〈…〉 e zealous against independents , then your selfe , ●s youchange us withall ? have there not been many interchangeable invitations between you and me , with loving acceptations , whereby we have enjoyed mutuall society , in all friendly and brotherly entertainment , saving ●●ill some quarrels about 〈…〉 way , but ever parting friends ? and more frequent it had been , had your occasions , and sometimes mine owne , permitted ▪ and neither at this day , since these you● invectives came forth , ( though they were no small griefe to me , and that even for your sak● ) am i become a greater stranger to you , either in face or affection , then i was be o●● for i am so perswaded of your good nature , thar did you truly epprehend , and dive into the mystery of christs kingly government in his churches and children , certainly you would never have thus sharpened and imbittered your style against your brethren ; the lord open your eyes to see it . but however , brother , either be more moderate in censuring , or else censure not at al● , without ju●● cause . but we exclude ( say you ) as good or better then our selvs from communion and church-society with us . surely it may be so ; but , brother , we exclude them not ; but they exclude themselves . and you give the reason , because they wil not submit to the churches government . but it doth not hence follow , that wee therefore deem either our selves so transcende●tly holy ( as you say ) or others altogether unworthy . but , brother , we esteem the government of christs church so holy ▪ as we cannot think them fit to be admitted ( be they never so good ) that think so slightly of the way , and of them that walk in it , that they refuse to agree to walk in this way with the people of god . would you admit of a member into your family who is disaffected with your courses , and orders of the family ? what cause then hath he to complain , if upon knowledge thereof you refuse to entertain him ? if therefore every family should be carefull to provide for its own peace , by having all in it of like affection and judgement , ( if possible ) why not christs owne house and family ? and , brother , the truth is , ( for we love no disguising , as to need any unmasking ) wee love not in a time of reformation , after a generall tincture of superstition and will-worship , blindly to goe to work , to admit of all commers , and to cast christs pearles and holy things to such as we know not . or if we b● perswaded they be truly godly , and yet they are not perswaded of the warrantablenesse of this way , how can they with a good conscience desire communion with us ? and if not , how can the church receive them ? nor indeed doe any such offer themselves ; nor doth the church impose any such conditions , as a godly christian hath cause not to accept . we desire to doe those things that please god , namely , such as he commends and commands . rev. 2. 2. christ commends the angell of the church of ephesus , for not hearing with those that are wicked , and for trying those that sayd they were apostles , and were not , but were found ly●rs . so some may come that professe themselves to be christians , that is , to be godly , to be beleevers , but we dare not receive them without triall : if they refuse to be tried , we may the more suspect them . and what interest hath any to church communion , that is not a member , or to the seal , that is not in covenant ? and we love not to do that , for which to repent afterwards . we desire all our members may be such as they may peaceably and sweetly continue with us . we are loath to have the world offended by the unworthy walking of any one member . and we desire by our best providence to prevent , that none once admitted , should ever be cast out again . and brother , all this we hold to be our duty , for the preferring of the honour of christ , and of his ordinances , and of his churches in the beauties of holinesse . others may take a broader way , if they please ; wee dare not . the church and body of christ is not of so slight account with us , as that we should carelesly and promiscuously admit of every one that offer themselves , without some triall of them , both for the churches satisfaction , and for the account shee must make to jesus christ . how strict the jews were , airsworth in gen. 12. v. 17. relates out of the r●●bines . and even bellarmine himselfe had such a cleare apprehension of the generall nature of christs church , ( though himselfe did not experimentally and particularly know it ) that hee useth th●se words : ecclesia precip●è , &c. the church especially and intention●lly , gathereth onely beleevers , such as have true faith in their heart . and when any hypocrites are mingled among , such as truly beleeve not ▪ i● falleth out besides the intention of the church . for if it could know them , it would never admit them ; or being casually admitted , it would so thwith exclude them . thus bell●rmi e ; which he sets down as a most true speculative prinple ( though but ill applied , and worse practised by him and his , and such like , ) which yet all true churches should be carefull to observe , and pot in practice . and truly , brother , we desire to do this , that , if it be possible , no misbeleever , no prophane liver , no hypocrite be admitted a member of christs body ( though an hypocrite having his viz rd on , may sometimes * creep in unawares into the church ) and therefore diligent circumspection is used for prevention . and ●urpius ejicitur , quam non admittitur h●s●es : a guest is in refairly kept out , then cast out . this , brother , is our course , that we hold in admitting of members ; we think we cannot be too wary , though too strict we are not . we suspect the gold that will not abide the touch . a christian name may silver over the copper , such as the scripture calls reprobate silver , ierem. 6. 30 ▪ though we know each currant coin hath its allowance of allay ; and each beleeving saint so many grains allowance ; but all sincere , no thing counterfeit . and as for church covenant , we have sufficiently spoken before . the last charge you lay upon independencie , is , uncharitablenesse , carelesnesse , and neglect of one another welfare , and the like . brother , for uncharitablenesse , let our practises , the best proofes of true charity ▪ plead for us . we ●●ve manifested our love and loyalty to the state , whereof we are natural and politicall members . for the safety thereof we have powred out our estates to the very bottome . we dare herein compare with all others of our rank and meanes . my selfe a poore man , am out for the state ▪ between foure and five hundred pounds ; and , i blesse god , i have done it with a cheerfull heart , nor for squint respects to lay out so much at once , to receive of the state so much annuity . yet i speak it not to glory , but you have compelled me . and besides their means , none have more prodigally adventured and spent their lives for the state , then your independents have ; and for none hath the god of battels appeared more . and but for stirring up envie ( which needs not ) i should put you in mind of marston-moore . in a word , brother , we dare challenge all the world in point of fidelity to the state , and our native countrey . where be they that more love , honour our senat , synod , syn●drion ? who pray more frequently , more fervently for them ? so that herein you cannot say we are independents , as for want of true love , and that of the best kind , to the publick cause and state , from which our independencie is so farre from separating our hearts and affections , with all our abilities to serve it , as that it hath cleared it self to be as fast & firmly united unto it , as any other whatsoever . and for true charitablenes ▪ brother , where is it to be found , if not in those churches you call independent ? but you will say , this love is among our selves . and god grant it may ever be so : yet it ends not here , but extends to all ▪ and , brother , for a close , i challange you to shew me any one parochiall congregation in england , where in there is , or can be the like love one to another , the like care one for another , the like spirituall watchfulnesse one over another , the like union and communion of members in one mysticall body , in a sympathy of affections , in such a fraternitie as is described , psal. 133. a lively type of a true church of christ . till you shew us the like in any of your parochiall assemblies , consisting of your mixed multitude , good brother , restrain your spirit so mightily imbittered against us , lest in charging us with uncharitablenesse , your self alone be found to be uncharitable . and so i have done with your first twelve questions . a vindication of churches , commonly called independent . or an ansvver to mr. prynnes second book . my deare brother , to your twelve new interrogatories i present you with a new answer . i call it new , because i shall cull out such passages , as i find new , or not so much insisted on in your former twelve . which as they are fewer , so i shall be the shorter , for as much as in the former , i have been the larger . but brother , i find not that in your book , which you pretend in your title , to wit , the unmasking of independency . nor can we expect it of you : for in your proeme you say , that the independents have not dogmatically , and in direct termes , discovered the full truth of what they assert . if not , what kind of visage will you discover , when you have taken off the mask ? surely , by your handling of the matter , you mean to unmask some hags face , such as pleased the painter . which when you have done , it will appeare to all the wise-hearted , that it is not the face of independency , as wherein there shines forth such a beauty , as it seemeth you yet never saw . in your preface to the courteous r●●der , you say , we politickly conceale the principall grounds , and more deformed parts of our church-platforme , for feare of miscarrying . good brother , who told you so● remember your own lesson before , judge not . but indeed , had you reproved us ( yet in love and meeknesse ) for not setting forth more fully a compleat modell of this fabrick , or spirituall house , it had been something . which yet if it were done , you would not impute it to policy , that it was not sooner done . but when it is exactly done , you will find no deformed parts at all in it : but contrariwise a greater beauty then in that famous temple that solomon built , as being the spirituall temple of jesus christ ; so as i am sorry you are put to the paines of pumping out our determinations ( as you say ) by your questions : when as you should rather find it as a fountaine flowing forth in the streets . but brother , how doe you write by question , not decision ( as you say ) when your questions prove to be decisions , as your former twelve are ? and what doe you els , but refute upon bare conjectures , andabatarum more pugnando , as those at blind-man-buff . for your charges upon us are very sore , and ( as many doe say ) bitter , so farre beyond reason , as you are not able truly to say , wherefore . for your first question , whether the independent forme of church-government be anywhere to be found in the old or new testament : this we have resolved in your former twelve questions : so as this is no new interrogatory , unlesse you put the greater difference between questions , and interrogatories . and though it were in no antiquitie ( which yet we have shewen before ) neverthelesse , if it be found in the scripture ( as there it is ) whatsoever clouds of the mastery of iniquitie have darkened the lustre of it for so many hundred yeares : yet this cannot plead prescription against it . for if nullum tempus occurrit regi : then surely no tract of time can prescribe against the law of christs kingdome , which we finde upon sacred record . but where , say you ? why , brother , this house of god wherein christ rules as king , stands upon so many principles , as so many maine pillars , not to be shaken . as 1. it is a spirituall house , whose onely builder and governour is christ , and not man . 2. it is a spirituall kingdome , whose onely king is christ , and not man . 3. it is a spirituall republick , whose onely law-giver is christ , and not man . 4. it is a spiritual corporation , or body , whose onely head is christ , and not man . 5. it is a communion of saints , governed by christs spirit , not man's . 6. christs church is a congregation called and gathered out of the world by christs spirit and word , and not by man . these principles are such , as the adversaries themselves of this kingdome of christ , cannot , dare not deny . and out of these principles doe issue these conclusions . 1. that no man is the builder of this spirituall house . 2. that no man , nor power on earth hath a kingly power over this kingdome . 3. that no earthly law-givers may give lawes for the government of this republick . 4. that no man may claime or exercise a headship over this body . 5. that no man can , or ought to undertake the government of this communion of saints . item , that none are of this communion , but visible saints . ergo , a true visible church of christ cannot be defined , or confined to a parochiall multitude . item , ●hat , that government of this communion , is not extrinsecall , but intrinsecall , by the spirit of the word , and by the word of the spirit . 6. that men may not appoint , limit , constitute what congregations of all sorts they please , to be churches of christ , as nations and parishes . but you confesse in generall , christ to be the builder , the king , the law-giver , the head , the governour , the caller , the gatherer of his churches . if you doe , you must approve of those churches you call independent , as whereof christ is the onely builder , king , law-giver , head , governour , caller , and gatherer . if you doe not , in denying christ in these relations , you deny christ in his absolute regalitie . but in your answer to your antiquerist , pag. 6. you doe in part grant christ to be king internally in the soule , which , you say , may passe for tolerable . o brother ! no more but may passe for toleráble ? you that are so l●rge-●earred to your friends , are you so strait-laced to christ ? surely , brother , christ is the full and sole king , raigning in the heart and conscience of every true beleever . it were intolerable , not to grant this in its full latitude . but you absolutely deny christs sole kingly government , externall over his churches . brother , this is no lesse christs kingly prerogative , then the former . hee that is king over every part of the body , must needs be king over the whole body . it therefore christ be the only king over every mans conscience , so as no man , nor power on earth , may sit with him in this his throne : then consequently by the se●f-same reason , must he by the word of the kingdome , as the only law thereof , exercise his kingly office over his churches ; so as no humane power or law may intermeddle to prescribe rules for the government , or forms of this spirituall house , and kingdome . for otherwise , if man should set up a form of government over the church of christ , to which all must conforme ; then of necessitie should man b● lord over the couscience , which is the highest presumption against the most high . and then what mischiefs would follow● what intolerable tyrannie over the conscience ? then must your words ( ibid. ) come to passe : if a moderated or regulated ep●scopacie the same with presbyterio , should by the synods advice , be unanim●usly established in parliament , as most consonant to the scriptures , and most agrerable to the civill government , i shall readily submit unto it without opposition , and why not you , and al● others ? so you . o brother , i stand amazed ! but i go on . then againe , the scripture , as it sets downe the qualifications of the members of this body , so the forming of them in the body in the parts thereof , more principall , and lesse , superiour and inferiour , for order and well-being : as pastors and teachers , teaching and ruling elders , helpes , governments , bishops , and deacons , or by what other means soever they are diversified in scripture . and this is one uniforme forme of government , which christ hath fixed in his churches , without any difference at all , but secundum●magis & minus ( as before ) as lesser churches have fewer officers , greater moe . so as , brother , if the old wine be better , old presby●erie , old unlordly episc●p●cy , surel ▪ the independents do justly challenge it : which had you once truly tasted of , you would never have desired to drink other . the lord remove that aguish humor * vexatus f●bre recus●t ●ptima . your second interrogatory is , about the lawfull powe● of civill magistrates in all matters of church-government , wherein you tax some independents for extraordinary eclipsing the same . some : what some may say , is one thing , must therfore the independent church-government say it too ? you alledge for this a passage in the answer of two of the brethren to a. s. for wch one of them is lately questioned : but , i hope , he wil clear himself . but the weight of this whole interrogatory lies in your marginall note : where you peremptorily conclude ; that the chief government and ordering of the church , and power of making ecclesiasticall lawes , or canons to bind it , before the law belonged to the patriarks and others , was not as they were priests , but rulers , and fathers of their families : under the law ( say you ) it belonged to moses , to the kings of iudah , israel , and the morall assemblies or congregations of the princes , nobles , chiefe captains , heads , and elders of the people : therefore under the gospel , by like reason and equity , and because it is a part of christs kingly , not priestly , or propheticall office ▪ it must needs belong to christian princes , magistrates , parliaments , to whom christ hath delegated his kingly office ; not to ministers , to whom he hath given onely his propheticall or priestly authoritie , not the royall , as the scriptures at large relate : nor yet to particular congregations , who are not magistrates , nor higher powers , invested with christs royall authoritie . so you , where you tell us many strange things , but prove nothing . but , brother , in such a weighty argument as this , your {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , will not serve the turne : yea , you here overthrow those principles forementioned , that christ is the onely king , so the onely priest , the onely prophet of his church ; which his three offices are incommunicable to any creature , as they are proper and peculiar onely to him ; he is the onely king , &c. now to be solus , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , the onely potentate , the king of kings , and lord of lords ; this is christs regall prerogative , which is in communicable to any , or to all the powers on earth . it is no lesse incommunicable , then his omnipotencie , his omniscience his omnipresence , and the rest of his incommunicable attributes ; no lesse then his mediatorship . those patriarchs and princes of israel before the law , and under the law , from adam to christ , never had this power or prerogative , to make ecclesiasticall lawes , or binding canons ; no nor yet moses , no● kings of iudah , israel , and generall assemblies , princes , nobles , chiefe captaines , and elders of the people , as you muster them up together in your marginall note . a seeming goodly army indeed ; but so many shadowes of men , for any such power they had , as you would with your penfull of ink paint cut unto us . and first for those before the law was given in sinai : had they this power you speak of ? cain and abel brought their sacrifices . what ? was it a * will-worship of their own election ? if so , god had regarded abels sacrifice no more then cains . how then ? their sacrifice was of gods own appointment : adam had it from god , and his children from him . for as god revealed to adam , christ , so those sacrifices , types of christ . whence the learned interpreter calvin saith , tenendum est , &c. we are to hold , that the manner of sacrificing was not unadvisedly devised by them , but delivered to them from god ▪ for seeing the apostle res●●res the dignity of abels sacrifice , as attributed to faith , it followes , he offered it not without gods commandement . so as it could not have pleased god , had it not been according to his commandement . so calvin . nor is all here expressed : no doubt they had an altar also , whereon to offer for the sanctifying and accepting the offering ; which altar was a type of christ the true * altar , to whom abels faith had respect . though we read not of altar before gen. 8. 28. we read also of difference of beasts clean , & unclean , gen. 7. by all which it is evident , that god gave a law to adam and his off-spring , sutable to that in mount sinai , for a rule of divine worship ; so also for church-government . and this further appeareth by the law in sinai afterwards , where moses is expresly charged to do all things ( both for worship and church-government ) according to the patern shewed him in the mount ; as before we noted . and when the temple was to be built , god gave to david an exact patern of all things , yea , of every particular , both in writing and by his spirit , not onely for worship , but for the whole ministration about the temple , a type of christs church under the gospell , so as neither moses nor kings of iudah , had the least power to devise any other forme , then that prescribed of god . the keeping of the passover once in the second month by ezechiah , was extraordinary , upon a case of necessity . and for the kings of israel , will you equall them with the kings of judah ? had they lawfull power , as jerobam , to set up his two golden ●●lvs , and so to change the form of worship & church-government ? when that king a●as set up his damascen altar , was it by a regall power invested in him from god ? so of other kings of juda , good or bad , they had no lawfull power at all to alter the form prescribed of god , one jor . and therefore , brother , you are wondred at , that being a man of much reading , and mightie parts , you should utter such strange things ( ne quid dicam durius ) as these are , and that so confidently , when you neither doe , nor ever can bring the least proofe , yea or colour of what you affirm . and therefore your inference upon such empty premises , that therefore under the gospel , by like reason and equity , it must needs belong to christian princes , magistrates , parliaments , to whom christ hath delegated his kingly office , &c. is no consequence . whence i note two things : 1. like reason and equity . now in your premises there is neither reason nor equity , because no truth in them . 2. christ hath not delegated his kingly office to any princes , magistrates , parliaments , to set up any form of worship or church-government of their devising , or conceiving , no more then hee did to all , or any of those you reckon up in the old testament . i pray god give you a better understanding in this mystery of christ , and godly sorrow for these things . take then the counsell of this great king : bee wise therefore , and understand ; and kisse this king , this sonne of god , by obeying him in all that he saith , as being not onely the onely king , but the onely prophet of his church ( as before ) whom whoso heareth not in all things , shall even be cut off from his people . but how then doe you say , this is a part of christs kingly office , not priestly , or propheticall , to set up a government ; and , hee hath not communicated those other offices to princes and parliaments : whereas christ doth in all things regulate his kingly office by his prophetical office ? and again , how say you , christ hath not given his kingly office to ministers , but onely his priestly and propheticall ; and yet you make an assembly of ministers as rector chori to be the leaders and guides to a form of reformation , and that necessarily ? and denying such to bee kings , or to have a kingly office , you exclude them out of the albe of those faithfull ones , whom christ hath made ▪ a * royall priesthood ; even * kings and priests to god his father . but so much of this second interrogatory . the third interrogatory . touching this : 1. wee assume not the power to gather churches , but being sent or called to preach the word of the kingdome , thereby people thus called of god , come to be gathered into church-fellowship , and so by consent doe chuse their officers . 2. such as are thus called , to acknowledge christ their onely king , were not begotten to this acknowledgment by such ministers as you speak of , who deny , disclaime , and preach against christs kingly government over mens consciences and churches . so as such a conversion as you speak of , comes not home to whole christ : and such , with their converters , doe deny christs kingly government ; what kind of converts call you these ? or at least and best they are converted but in part ; and that main thing wanting , to wit , christs kingly office , they come up to by the preaching thereof . 3. such ministers , when they set up christs government , may ( being agreed upon by all sides ) have those parishioners again , that for want of it at the first went from them . 4. our solemne vow and covenant obligeth us not to any thing that is prejudiciall to the authority of gods word , and the libertie of a good conscience , considering how churches are gathered out of all the world , not this place , nor that , not this house nor that , but out of * every nation , such as fear god , and * out of every house the sons of peace , & out of * every citie or town , all that receive the gospel , are called and gathered to christ . 5. concerning christian liberty in joyning to severall churches , as in the same house some to affect one , some another : you know what christ saith , luke 12. 51 , 52 , 53. and it is god that perswadeth i●ph●t to dwell in the tents of shem. and , brother , all that noyse you make all along , with extreame aggravations , as confusion , distraction , implacable contestations , schismes , tum●lts , &c. what are they but the very out-cries which the prelats ever used for the crying and keeping up of their hierarchy , built upon the same sandy foundation . this is well noted in the harmony of confessions , sect. 11. confession of ausburg . these senater-like declamations though they be very plausible , and incense the mindes of many against us , yet they may be confuted by most true and substantiall arguments . as , all the prophets and apostles were true lovers of the peace and concord of nations and people : yet were they constrained by the commandement of god , to warre against the devils kingdome , to preach heavenly doctrine , to collect a church unto god , and the like . and , the true doctrine of god , and his true worship , must needs be embraced and received ; and all errors , that tend to the dishonor of god , must be abhorred and forsaken , though all the world should break and fall down . and much more there . 6. though we are fully perswaded by gods word and spirit ▪ that this our way is christs way ; yet wee neither doe , nor dare judge others to be reprobates , that walk not with us in it , but we leave all judgement to god , and heartily pray for them : we our selves have been formerly ignorant of it , therefore wee pitie others . 7. where you object , that under pretence of christian liberty , whole houses , parishes , counties , may thus come to be divided into severall formes of churches , as some for the presbyteriall , some for the hierarchicall , and so cause schismes and ruines ; or at least unavoidably subvert all ancient bounds of parishes , all setled maintenance for the ministery by tythes , &c. brother , for christian libertie , who shall perswade the conscience , or who hath power over it , but he that made it , even god , the onely judge thereof ? and for difference of mens judgements in points of religion , how can it be avoided ? and yet it followes not , that upon such differences should come ruine to a state . what serveth the magistrate , and the lawes of a civill state for , but to keep the peace ? and as for parishes , will you allow no churches but parishes ? or are parishes originally any other but of humane , politicke , and civill constitution , and for civill ends ? or can you say , that so many as inhabit in every parish respectively , shall bee a church ? should such churches and parishes then necessarily be churches of gods calling and gathering ? are they not congregations of mans collection , constitution and coaction meerly ? what churches then ? and as for tithes : what tithes , i pray you , had the apostles ? such as be faithfull and painfull ministers of christ , he will certainly provide for them : as when hee sent forth his disciples without any purse , or provision , he asked them , lacked you any thing ? they said , nothing . surely , the labourer is worthy of his hire . and as for ministers maintenance by tithes , i referre you to the judgment of your learned brother mr. selden . and as for your independent ministers , they plead no other maintenance then the new testament holds forth , yet not denying the magistrate and state a power to appoint maintenance for the preaching of the word , as is done in new england , to those that are not members of churches . and where you charge them , for having the faith of christ in respect of persons , as if they admitted the rich , rather then the poore : brother , i hope it is not so with others ; i am sure , not so with me . and lastly , for your marginall young interrogatories : as , 1. of how many members each congregation ? i am sure your congregations admit neither augmentation nor diminution , but according to the capacitie of every parish . 2. within what precincts ? christs churches are not limited either to place or number . 3. what set stipends allowed ? sufficient more or lesse . 4. when and where churches should assemble ? for when ? at times convenient . for where ? not necessarily in this or that place . 5. who shall prescribe extraordinary times of fasting , or thanksgiving to them upon just occasions ? if the occasion be the churches peculiar interest , the church agrees upon the time . but if it be publick , concerning the politick body of the state , whereof we are native members , in whose weale or woe we sympathize , either we keep dayes of our own appointment extraordinary , or if the civill state command and appoint a day , we refuse not to observe it . 6. who shall rectifie their church-covenants , discipline , censures , government , if erroneous , or unjust ? first , each church useth her best meanes left her of christ , within her selfe . secondly , if need require , she useth the help of sister-churches . thirdly , if any other , as the civill state , be not satisfied , shee * refuseth not to yeeld an account of her actions , being required . 7. shew us ( say you ) a sufficient satisfactory commission from gods word for all they doe , or desire , before they gather any churches . brother prynne , you say you will pump out our thoughts ▪ yea , it seemes , you will exanclate , pumpe out every drop that is in us . but stay , brother , you are not yet a magistrate . and 2. wee hope you will not take up againe the oath ex officio to pump out all our secrets . and 3. though i have for my part dealt very freely with you , as my brother , all along : yet give me leave to keep a reserve , done● ad triarios redieritres , untill it come to a dead lift , in case we shall be brought before * princes and rulers , to give an account of what we doe , or desire . and 4. you put us upon too unreasonable a taske , to satisfie you in all that we doe , or desire . first make your particular exceptions , and demands for this , or that ▪ and then we shall know the better how to shape you an answer , as you see we have here done . what are all your books of law ▪ cases , all the volumes of the casuists , to the resolution upon general grounds , of incident matters , which could not be ruled till they happened ? and yet the government of states is one , and the doctrine of the scripture in all generally necessary poynts cleare . and we desire you not too too much to grow upon us , when you see we are so coming , and free . the fourth interrogatory . this is much like the next before . for that was about ministers power to gather churches : this , concerning the peoples power in uniting themselves in a church , choosing their minister , erecting such a government , as they conceive most sutable to the scripture . and so all manner of hereticks may set up churches , and all manner of heresies , sects , be brought in . i answer , as before . a church is a citie of god , which by her charter becomes a citie , being called of god , and by the same charter ( the scripture ) chuseth her own officers : and sets up no other government , but what her charter prescribes . if any other doe otherwise , and doe pervert the scripture , it is not to be imputed to the church of christ . her liberties are no law for others licentiousnesse . it was so in the apostles times , and the next ages after . the true churches liberties were no true cause of so many heresies ; no more then the christians of old were the cause of the calamities of the citie or empire of rome , because nero and other tyrants falsly charged them , and as injuriously dealt with them . nor may we cast away the priviledges of christians , because others abuse them . yea , whether we use our priviledges , or no , errours and heresies will be . the apostles , and apostolick churches , could neither keep , nor cast them out ; as is shewed before . but brother , where you say , that if this liberty of setting up an independent church-government be admitted : then by the selfe-same reason , they must have a like libertie to elect , erect what civil forme of government they please : to set up a new independent republick ▪ kingdome , &c. by the selfe-same reason ? surely by no reason at all . shew us a reason hereof , and take all . and you know , that republicks , kingdomes are independent , though not of churches electing , erecting . it is unsatisfiable injury , and extreame irrationality thus to argue ; for hath christ given the same command to his people , as such who are not of this world , nor their kingdome , as he hath done to them in spirituals which he commands them to practise whosoever forbids ? 2. they set up no forme , but take that which is prescribed , which god hath not done in civill government , but left it free , 1 pet. 2 rom. 13. the fifth interrogatory . herein you make a comparison between presbyteriall and independent churches ; why not that , as well as this ? and if this , why doe we not shew solid proofe of it ? i answer : we desire to enjoy ours , without making comparison with yours ▪ for proofe we have shewed sufficient . then to a second quere ; the answer is , not the minister alone , nor the congregation alone , but both together admit members , and set up christs government , not their own . and how ever you make us a conventicle , consisting of inconsiderable ignorant members : i beleeve , brother prynne , when you shall have any thing to doe with the most contemptible of such conventicles , as you esteeme us , you will not altogether find us such , as you are pleased to terme us . and for nationall parliaments , states , wee honour them with whatsoever honour is due unto them , as gods * word commandeth us . and for a nationall councell , as this is , called to advise , not to be peremptory judges in the matters of god over our consciences , wee detract not their due honour too , as they are pious , and learned men . 2. where you would have them have the same power in a parliament and synod , that they have in a church , if they be members , it is answered , that all power is restrained to its own sphere and place , so that we may have a greater power in another kind , and yet not that ; as no parliament man hath the power of a master of a family in the parliament , though he have a greater . the sixth interrogatory . this interrogatory hath sundry branches : the answer whereunto respectively , will intimate what they be . 1. wee say , as before , none of our ministers doe by any usurped authoritie gather churches . 2. we cannot conceive , that any law of the land is against the setting up of christs kingdome in the hearts of his people ; and in those congregations called and gathered by the voyce of his word . nor doth the ministery of christs word more in this , then it did by john baptist , christ himselfe , and his apostles , when they called christian congregations out of the jewes nationall church . even the imperiall heathen roman lawes gave way to the preaching of christs kingdome , and gathering of churches within their territories , provinces , cities . 3. for church-government , covenant , wee have said enough before . 4. concerning a nationall church also , we have spoke already in the former answer . and i desire brevitie , and not to answer all your repetitions and aggravations , lest i may nauseam movere . 5. it is one thing for a state to set up a new forme of ecclesiasticall government , and another to pull downe the old . this they were bound unto by the word of god : but not so that , unlesse it be the same church-government which christ sets downe in his word ; besides which none other ought to be set up , though never so much pretended , and by men conceived to be according to gods word , when made sutable to the lawes , customes of every nation , and manners of the people , as you affirme ; of which before . lastly , this church-government , which we professe , you shall never be able to prove ridiculous and absurd , as you conclude your interrogatory . the seventh interrogatory . this interrogatory is about the dismissing of members : 1. to become members of presbyteriall churches : 2. or of other independent churches . i answer , if any will desert their congregation , who can let them ? yet it is the churches care and duty to preserve it selfe , and all the members in unity of the body ; and also from whatsoever may be sinfull . if any shall repent , and fall back , churches are not more free , then * christ himselfe was . if any for conveniency sake , or necessary occasion , desire to joyne with some other church , doe you think it unreasonable , first to acquaint the church with their desire ? and doe you not allow of letters of recommendation , when any is to passe to other churches ? may not els jealousies and suspicions arise , and heart-burnings between churches ? do you not remember , what divisions and emulations the want hereof did cause among the churches of old ? and , brother , we desire to doe all things in love . and we desire that others should doe no otherwise unto us , then we doe unto them : as you object . you twit us againe , for respecting the rich , more then the poore . if it be true , it is * our fault , and ought not so to be : if not true , it is yours , and that so often as ( as you doe ) you cast it in our dish . the eight interrogatory . this interrogatory is to charge us , for not admitting to baptisme any infants of such parents , who are not members of our churches . and , brother , you make this a most hainous and intolerable thing . why , you know , if we would admit of all , it would be no small benefit and advantage to us , especially when we are to deale with rich mens children , such as you say we have in such high estimation . therefore that we doe it not for rich men , you may thinke there is something in it , that covetousnesse is not ▪ so predominant in us ▪ as to corrupt our conscience . and therefore brother , let some charitable thought take place in you , that we doe it rather of conscience , then of covetousnesse . and what say you to this , brother ? we preach christ to the parents . we preach him no lesse a king , then a priest and prophet . we preach him the onely king of our conscience , and the onely law-giver and governour of his churches . we exhort them to set up this king in their hearts . wee exhort them to become and professe to be those saints , of whom he is king . for he is * king of saints . but , brother , they will not beleeve us ; they will not depend upon christ , as the onely lawgiver , and king over their consciences . now , what would you have us to doe in this case ? baptize the infants of such parents , as will not , in this respect , professe , nor confesse christ to be their king ? why , doe you not know , that no infants have any title to baptisme , that are not within the covenant visibly ? and how are they within the covenant visibly , but by vertue of their parents faith outwardly professed ? and what outward profession of faith in the parents , that refuse christ for their onely king ? that are ashamed , or afraid , to professe to be in covenant with christ , as their king ? if therefore the parents professe not ▪ yea refuse thus to be in visible , covenant , can the children be said to be in visible covenant , and so to have a right to baptisme , the externall seale of the covenant ? brother , here is obex , a barre put . if you say , the child shall not beare the iniquitie of the father . true ; but the parents keep themselves off from the covenant by refusing christ , in whom alone the beleever hath right to the covenant ; and so the child is withall kept off . for it is not now under the gospel , as it was from abraham to christ , the covenant was made with abraham and his seed , so as by vertue hereof all the male infants of beleeving abraham were and ought to be circumcised . but now under the gospel , those onely are accounted abrahams seed , who professe the faith of abraham , which faith looked upon christ , and embraceth whole christ in all his offices , and professe the same outwardly , rom. 10. 9 , 10. so as the covenant is entayled onely to beleevers now , and so to their children ( as act. 2. 39. ) if then the parents by refusing christ as their king , as the jewes did ( luk 19. 14. ) doe hereby out themselves off from the covenant , they do therewith cut off their children too : and this not to be recovered in the child , untill either the parent be restored , or the child coming in time to beleeve , and to professe the faith of christ , doe hereby claime his right to the covenant , and so to baptisme , as being a * childe of abraham . let this suffice for the present , why we dare not baptize the children of those parents , that refuse to professe the faith of christ , as their onely king , as well as their onely priest and prophet . for christ divided , becomes no christ to the divider . this is , according to the vulgar latin translation , ( 1 joh. 4. 3. ) solvere iesum , to dissolve jesus , that is , to receive him only in part , and not in whole . which is the spirit of antichrist . besides , willing disobedience to any good order in a church , deprives a man of the liberties of the church : ( for so he may not eat of the provender , that will not undergoe the yoake ) now this of a voluntary profession to walk with the saints of such a place , according to christ , is a thing so just , as following the example of the old church , who were in particular covenant with god . 2. in the new , they professed their giving themselves to god , 2 cor. 8. 5. 3. all societies require some promise of their members . if it be said , we are members of the universall church by faith and repentance : we reply , 1. this faith must be shewen by a voluntary giving our selves to christ visibly , and then to some church of his , if opportunitie serve ; for christ will not have his people to be wandring sheep , when they may have a fold ; nor to be individua vaga , when they may be reduced to order . the ninth interrogatory . this interrogatory lays a charge upon independents , for refusing to admit to the lords supper such as are not notoriously scandalous , nor grossely ignorant , but professe repentance , &c. which you say , is a very uncharitable , arrogant , yea unchristian practise , contrary to christs own example in admitting iudas to the lords supper ; also to that of paul , 1 cor. 11. you calling it also a transcendent straine of tyrannicall usurpation over soules and consciences , and gods ordinances , worse then our most domineering lordly prelates , &c. yea lording over christ himselfe , and more then ever the apostles did , but onely by their extraordinary calling , &c. i answer in one word ( omitting your copious aggravations , and sharp censures ) that we look further , then to a generall profession and conversation , namely , to their faith in christ , that it be sound intire , and whole , and namely , whether they hold him to be as the onely prophet and high priest , so the onely prince of his people , the onely lord , and lawgiver to every mans conscience , and over every congregation or church of his saints . if they thus acknowledge not christs kingly office , as well as his other offices , we doe not , we dare not receive them . and what have they to do with the seales , that refuse by covenant to own christ for their king ? as for judas , he received the sop , not the supper ; for , after the sop , he went out * immediately , saith john . so as it appeares , the other evangelists relate some other passages by a hysteron proteron , as is not unusuall in scripture story . and none of them saith , that he received the supper . and suppose ●e did : the churches censure had not yet past upon him : onely john by a secret signe knew he was to be the traytor . for that of the apostle , 1 cor. 11. 28. that was a true church , though now disordered ; and the apostle refers the redressing of their abuses to themselves . the case is otherwise here , so as all your accumulated calumniations fall to ground . and concerning the apostles extraordinary calling , if we must expect the like calling , we must not in the meane time admit of any , either to baptisme , or to the lords supper ; neither should there be any gathering of churches at all ; as some from hence doe gather . besides , what shall the authority be , that luther gathered the churches by , and those that followed him ? and what lawfull gathering then have the reformed churches ? for your marginall note of moses , david , solomon , about setling religion by gods own direction : herein you come home to that i said before , alledged against your unlimited law . but in that you now restraine by their example , all church-government to the civil magistrates ; you must make it out by holding close to the rule , that is , to settle religion by gods own direction , as you here confesse , and not to elect , erect a forme of religion , and church-government , such as they shall conceive sutable , &c. as before you told us . and moses , david , solomon , were all types of christ , who put an end to all such . and while you there exclude the priests from having any thing to doe in reforming , or advising : what will the assembly say to you ? but they may advise , you will say . but the priests might do nothing , but according to gods prescript law ; no more then moses , david , solomon . and if the priests ( as you say ) had no ruling votes : then by this reckoning , what votes do you allow the assembly-men , in their mixt committees with the members of parliament , or in the assembly it selfe ? reconcile these i pray you . the tenth interrogatory . this interrogatory questions , or rather ( as all the rest ) concludes , that that text ( mat. 18. 15 , 16 , 17. ) is not meant of any ecclesiasticall censure , as of excommunication , but onely of the civill court of justice . brother , if you did speake hereas a divine , and not meerly as a lawyer , you would not have , against the judgment of most learned divines , ancient and modern , and not papists , &c. so interpreted this place . and what speak i of divines ? the text it selfe is its own clearest interpreter . for it is immediatly added ( v. 18. ) verily i say unto you , whatsoever you shall bind on earth , shall be bound in heaven ; and whatsoever you shall loose on earth , shall bee loosed in heaven . which is without controversie spoken of church-censure , or of the power of the keyes in exercising church-discipline ; as that ( matth. 16. 19 ) is spoken of doctrine , as the learned calvin well observeth . so as this very context cleareth the former to bee meant of church-censure , as it was among the jewes . you alledge on the contrary , that learned lawyer whom wee all honour for his learning . good brother , i could wish that all this zeale of yours against independents , might not arise from any jealousie , as if church-censures should prejudicate or trench upon your pleadings at the barre of civill justice . farre be it , that we should have our motion beyond our own spheare . content your self with your own orb , and we shall confine our selves to ours , i dare warrant you . again , to what purpose do you urge this interpretation of this text against us ? do not all the presbyterians expound it so ? and if this text , which is made the great pillar of presbyterian excommunication , be taken off , you leave no more to a classis then we , scil. to consult and advise . and with this foot you have dashed all the milk you gave them . the eleventh interrogatory . this interrogatory is to perswadeus , that in that assembly , or evangelicall synod ( as you call it ) acts 15. the apostles voted not as they were apostles infallibly guided by the holy ghost , but rather as they were in their ordinary capacitie , as elders and chiefe members of it . whereupon ( producing your six reasons for it ) you peremptorily conclude , that this is an undeniable scripture-authority for the lawfulnesse , use of parliaments , councels , synods , under the gospel , upon all like necessary occasions ; and for their power to determine controversies of religion , to make canons in things necessary for the churches peace and concernment , maugre all evasions , exceptions ( of independents ) to elude it . but let us examine your six reasons , why the apostles sate not as apostles , but as ordinary elders , &c. where first , we lay this ground for the contrary , scil. that they sate as apostles , because not ordinary elders , as elders , can say , it seemed good to the holy ghost and to us . but the apostles , as apostles , might say so , because in any doctrinall point they had the promise of the spirit , to bee led into all truth , as upon whom the church was to bee built , eph. 2. 20. secondly , if they sate as ordinary elders , then their decrees did no further bind , then as they might appeare to agree with scripture ; otherwise elders , as elders , may bind the conscience , let the decree bee never so wicked . but to your reasons : first , for else ( say you ) paul and barnabas being apostles themselves , might have decided that controversie at antioch , without sending to ierusalem . answ. 1. by your favour , brother , barnabas was not ( to speak properly ) an apostle , though an apostolicall man . 2. they argued with those legalists at antioch , sufficiently to convince them ; but they comming from judea , and pretending the use of circumcision , and moses law , to be still in force in the church at jerusalem , and the controversie being between two great parties , the christian jews , and christian gentiles ; hereupon the church at antioch thought it requisite , for the fuller satisfaction to all parties , to send paul and barnabas to the apostles and elders at jerusalem . and 3. because paul and barnabas are thus sent , doth it follow , that they were not sufficient ( yea paul alone , as an apostle infallibly guided by the holy ghost ) to have decided the question at antioch ? as no doubt sufficiently they did , though not so satisfactorily to all . and 4. that they are thus by the church at antioch sent to the apostles and church at jerusalem : here is a good example for the use of communion of churches , as in doubtfull cases to consult one with another . 2. else ( say you ) the church at antioch would have sent to none , to resolve their doubts , but to the apostles onely , and not to the elders . i answer : in that they sent to the elders also , it shewes the respect that one church should have to another . 2. those elders were men endowed with the gifts of the holy ghost . 3. though they had not infallibility , as the apostles had , yet their assent to the determination , was a witnesse-bearing to the truth thereof . 3. else ( say you ) paul and barnabas would have put the question to the apostles onely , not to the elders and church , as well as to them , vers. 4 , 5 , 6. this is answered in the former . 4. else the apostles would not have called all the elders and brethren to consult , v. 6. when themselves might have done it alone . i answer : 1. though the apostles might have done it alone , yet they would not , but called together the elders and brethren , yea , and the whole church at jerusalem ( vers. 4 , 22. ) hereby to give a precedent to all presbyters , or elders of churches , that in cases of difference arising , they call the whole church together , for assistance and counsell therein . 2. in so doing , the apostles diminished nothing of that judicial power and authority which christ left with them for deciding of controversies , being infallibly guided by the holy ghost , while they thought it not fit to doe such things in a corner , which concerned the whole church . 5. peter and iames ( say you ) would not have argued the case so largely , and proved it by arguments and scriptures , as they did , one after another , but have peremptorily resolved it without dispute , had they sate and determined it by their extraordinary infallible power . i answer : this followes no more then the former . for the arguments they used , with the conclusion , were by the direction of the holy ghost . and 2. the holy ghost is not so peremptory , but will have his truths examined by the scriptures , as acts 17. 11. the bereans are commended by the holy ghost for examining pauls sermon by the scripture , though hee were an apostle , and spake by the holy ghost . and 3. the churches assent was taken in for a witnesse ex abundanti . 6. the finall resolution ( say you ) letters and canons of this synod , had run onely in the apostles names , had they proceeded onely by their apostolicall infallible authority , and not in the names of the elders and brethren too . i answer : there is as little reason in this , as in all the rest of your reasons : for then by this reason sundry of pauls epistles , which were all dictated by the holy ghost , did not proceed from that infallibility of spirit alone wherewith the apostle was guided , because we find others , not apostles , joyned with him . as ( 1 cor. 1. 1. ) paul , called to be an apostle of iesus christ , and softhenes a brother , to the church of god &c. and 2 cor. 1. 1. paul an apostle of iesus christ , and timothy a brother , to the church , &c. and gal. 1. 1. paul an apostle , &c. and all the brethren that are with me , to the churche ▪ of galatia , &c. so phil. 1. 1. col. 1. 1. 1 thess. 1. 1. paul , and sylvanus , and timotheus , to the church , &c. in all which places , though there was but one apostle , guided with infallibility of the holy ghost to write the scriptures , yet many brethren are joyned in the salutation of the churches ; and yet paul , as apostle , did write those epistles , and not simply as a brother , or fellow-servant with them of jesus christ . neither are those brethren ( so named ) accounted the pen-men of the scripture , as paul of right is . thus you see , brother , there was no necessity , that either the apostles names should be put alone , because they only were guided by the spirits infallibility : or that the names of the elders and brethren should not be put , without a necessary conclusion deduced thence , that the decree there was therefore binding , as being the decree of a synod , and so exemplary for all parliaments , councels , synods , to make the like binding decrees . but ( good brother ) for all your punctuall quotations of that scripture , you doe not all this while tell us ▪ ( which is the main of all ) that which we find in the 28. verse of that chapter , it seemed good to the holy ghost and vs , to lay vpon you no greater bvrthen , then these necessary things . now , brother , we chalenge you to shew us any parliament , councell , synod , ever since the apostles , that could or can say thus , it seemed good to the holy ghost and vs , to determine controversies of religion , to make and impose canons to bind all men , &c. shew this to us , at this time , and we will obey . but if you cannot , as you never can , never let any man presse upon us that scripture , that synod , which hath no parallel in the whole world , and so is no precedent , pattern , for any councell , synod , parliaments . let me conclude with a passage of the learned and famous chamierus , that grand antagonist of bellarmins . bellarmine upon the same scripture you alledge ( act. 15. ) ( as also our late prelates have usually done ) would deduce the same conclusion , that you doe , for humane authority in binding mens consciences . to which chamierus thus answereth : that this consequence holds not : quia non eadem sit authoritas apostolorum , & reliquorum ecclesiae pastorum : because there is not the same authoritie of the apostles , and of other pastors of the church . for with those the holy ghost was extraordinarily present : so as what they propounded , did simply proceed of god . but other pastors have no such extraordinary assistance of the spirit : and therefore their decrees are not to be paralleld with the apostles decrees . which is a speciall difference in binding of the conscience , which hath it selfe for witnesse , and god for the onely iudge : therefore , when it hath any thing commanded of god , it must needs stand bound . where ( inter caetera ) is to be noted , that god is the onely iudge and binder of the conscience . the great question in controversie at this day . obj. but you will here object , that although ( as before you say of priests ) a councel , or synod , have not this authority to make and impose binding decrees , yet a parliament hath ; and you deduce it from this synod , act. 15. answ. now truly , brother , by your favour , this doth no way hold proportion , that that which you call a synod ( as a patterne for binding decrees ) should not qualifie a synod of divines with the like power , and yet transmit it over to a parliament for binding authority over the consciences of a whole nation : surely that apostolike assembly , or church meeting , was neither a parliament , nor diet , nor senate , nor any such thing , that you should build any such power of parliaments upon it , for the making of binding decrees over the consciences of men . therefore , good brother , be not so peremptory , but take in your top-sail , too high to bear up against so stiffe a gale , both of scripture and reason . but i come to your twelfth and last interrogatory . the twelfth interrogatory . this interrogatory is concerning the lawfull coercive power of civil magistrates in suppressing heresies , &c. or , setters up of new forms of ecclesiasticall government , &c. for answer hereunto , wee do acknowledge and submit unto the lawfull coercive power of civill magistrates , according to the scripture , rom. 13. but brother , however , you must distinguish between mens consciences and their practices . the conscience simply considered in it self , is for god , the lord of the conscience , alone to judge , as before . but for a mans practices , ( of which alone , man can take cognizance of ) if they be against any of gods commandments of the first , or second table ; that appertains to the civill magistrate to punish , who is for this cause called , custos utriusque tabulae . the keeper of both tables : and therefore the apostle saith , ( rom. 13. 3 , 4. ) for rulers are not a terror to good works , but to the evill . wilt thou then not be afraid of the power ? do that which is good , and thou shalt have praise of the same : for hee is the minister of god to thee for good ; but if thou do that which is evill , be afraid , for he beareth not the sword in vain ; for hee is the minister of god , a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evill . so as we see here , what is the object of civill power , to wit ; actions , good , or bad . not bare opinions , not thoughts , not conscience , but actions . and your self exempts the preaching of the gospel and truth of god , from being restrained by the civill magistrate . but now brother , the time hath been , and somewhere is , and will be , that the * truth of god hath been with-holden in unrighteousnesse , and by the civill magistrate punished with death , being condemned for heresie . and you see in these dayes , great diversities of mens opinions and judgements : one judging thus , another so ; you think my way erroneous , and i may do as much for you . but do you or i , do that which is evill , in actually breaking of any of gods commandments , or any just lawes of the land ? then we lie open to course of civill justice ; but so long as wee differ only in opinion , which of us shall be punished first ? or which of us is in the error ? you write books , i write against them ; yet sub judice lis est , who shall be judge ? you ? or i ? surely neither . among other things , you would have the civill magistrate to suppresse , restrain , imprison , confine , banish the setters up of new forms of ecclesiasticall government without lawfull authority . it may be you will involve me in the number . but what if i prove that which you call a new form , to be the old form : and the lawfull authority of setting it up , to be of christ ? must i therefore undergo all these your terrible censures , because you so judge ? what if your judgement herein be altogether erroneous ? what punishment then is due to him that condemnes the innocent ? you may be a civill judge one day ; remember then , brother , that if i come before you , you meddle not with my conscience , nor with mee for it . if i shall offend any of your just lawes , punish mee and spare not . but if you should make a law like to that of the jewes , that who so shall confesse christ to be the son of god , and the only law-giver , lord , king , governour over consciences , churches , and not man , not assemblies , not councels , or senates , though after much fasting , prayers , disputes , ( as you say ) i confesse , i shall be apt to transgresse that law ; but yet take you heed how you punish me for that trangression , with an ense recidendum , or i wot not what club-law . so ends your book , and so my answer . now brother , you have since published a third book , partly in answer to your first answerer , and partly touching mr joh. goodwin ; i leave the parties interessed to acquit themselves ; only your stating the question in the conclusion of the book , i could not omit . you sta●● it thus : whether a whole representative church and state , hath not as great , or greater ecclesiasticall iurisdiction over the whole realm & churches , with all the members , then any one independent minister or congregation challenge over their members . brother , i answer , if you can prove your jurisdiction good , we will easily grant it to be greater . but if the jurisdiction of the churches you call independent be good , as having christ for the founder and owner of it , as we have cleerly proved , then certainly , it will prove the greater : for , magna est veritas , & praevalet : for christs kingdome shall stand up , when all opposite earthly kingdomes , like earthen vessels , shall with his iron rod be dashed in pieces : this for the clause . another passage in the same book , is touching my person : where you say , that none of us three-brethren-sufferers , suffered for opposing bishops legall authority , or any ceremonies by act of parliament established : here brother , give me leave to answer for my self : first , for all manner of ceremonies of humane ordinance , imposed upon the conscience in the worship of god , i openly , for the space almost of a twelvemoneth , immediately before my troubles , preached against them , every lords day , out of col. 2. from the 8th verse to the end of the chapter ; so as when i was summoned into the high commission court , the articles read against mee , were not only for my two sermons , nov. 5th , but also for those other sermons against the ceremonies : so as this might challeng to be one ingredient in my censure in star-chamber , and no lesse then a pillory matter . and concerning my opposing of bishops themselves , not only their extravagancies ( for which i also was censured , and suffered ) you may remember one passage in that book , for god & the king , affixed to the information ; were there a law in england , as once among the locrians , that who should come to propound a new law , he● should come with a rope about his neck ; i would be the first my self , to petition the parliament , that the government of bishops might be abolished , and another set up more agreeable to the scripture , ( although i confesse , were i to make such a proposition now , i should ●● much alter my style , as the condition of this present time differs from that , i should mount much higher . ) and do you not think , brother , that this helped to put the hang-mans knife ( though not the halter ) so close to the very root of mine ears , that it opened the wider sluces for the blood to stream out ( with yours my dear fellow-sufferers ) to fill the whores cup , and make her drunk and spue , and fall , and rise up no more ? although the more cautelous and self-wise , or discreet any of us ( but especially my self ) then was , to avoid the fear of men , or force of law , certainly now , brother , it abates so much the more of the honour of that suffering ; and the lesse honour , the more shame . but take we the shame to our selves , and give we all the honour to whom it is due ; and brother , wherein we then came short , let us now make it up , by being zealous for our christ , in labouring to advance the throne of his kingly government in all our souls , and over all the churches of the saints , and with those four and twenty elders , cast our selves and crowns before him that sitteth on the throne , saying . thou art worthy , o lord , to receive glory , and honour , and power , for evermore . amen . and let this be our main contention , who shall most honor christ , and most love one another , farewell . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a30650e-320 pag. 2. * esa. 66. 8. * zach. 20. * col. 2. 23. pag. 3. qu. 2 , 3 , 4 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12. contranegantem principia non est disputandum . * 1 cor. 14. 40. & 11. 34. harm. of confessions , sect. 10 11 , 26. ibid. observationes brevissimae in totam harmoniam . sect. 19. append. sect. 10. vide appendices locorum , &c. ibid. * ibid. * see also the close of gualter . homil. in the acts . not but that we grant a vari●ty in the meth●d and manner in po 〈…〉 t of circumstance , so the sub 〈…〉 ce b● k 〈…〉 , ●s repentance f●●m dead work● , & fai●● towards our saviour iesus christ : so in church-government . exod 25. 40. heb. 8. 5. * but we do not say that the same things are prescribed under the gospel , nor doth it come to such circumstantia●s ● but we say , what it prescribeth , is to be kept . * 1 cor. 14. 32 , 33. rom. 13. 1● . 1 pet. 2. 13 , 14 , 15. 1 cor. 10. 32 , 33. 1 cor. 7. 17. 1 cor. 16. 1. * hollinshed● description of britaine , chap. 7. about the yeer 187. fox his monuments . * act. 17. 11. cambdens remains . * act. 17. 11. 1 sam. 11. 2. quest . 3. rroposition . assumptions which takes up the fourth question . conclusion . 1 cor. 11 ▪ * see also nicolas de clemangüs , super materia concilii generalis , circa initium . non oportet nos ecclesiae triumphantis , ecclesiae titulos ascribere , ut infallibilis sit , &c. obj. answ. proposition . assumption . * mat. 10. 34. luk. 23. 2. 14. act. 14. 5. proposition . assumption . synagoga , & postea ecclesia s●n●o●●● habu●t , quoru● si●e ●onsis●o nihil age●atur in ecclesia . quod qua negligentia obsol●v●●it nescio , nisi doctorum desidia , aut magis sup●rbia , dum soli volunt aliquid videri . comment. ambrosii in c. 5. epist. ad tim. 1. 5. proposition . assumption * iohn 4. acts. 10 35 matth 28. 20. polydor vi●g●l de ●nven t● ib rerum . lib 4 cap 9. 1 cor. 1 2. so rom. 1. 7. so ephes. 1. 1 , &c * mat. 3. 5. 7. io● . 4 1. acts 2. 40. ierem. 50. 5. gen 17 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14. rom. 4. 11 , 16 * luke 19. 14. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . proposition . assumption . conclusion . exod. 5 , 6. 〈◊〉 . 1● . 3. * act. 15. proposition . assumption . conclusion . heb. 3. ● . revel. 22. 18 , 19 ▪ so deut. 4. 2 ▪ and 12. 32 ▪ prov. 30. ● . 1 chron. ●8 . proposition . assumption . conclusion . luke 9. 23 ▪ eph. 1. 21 ▪ col. 2. 6. iude 15. formae rerum nesciuntur . scaliger . exerci● ▪ rom. 3. 3. act. 4. 1● . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , &c. 1 iohn 2. ●● ▪ obj. answ. rom. 13. rom. 14. 4. nudum christum , nudus sequere ▪ hieron ecclesia prae●●pue & ex intentione , fi ●●●s tantum ●ol●● gi● , qui veram fidem in corde ●●●●nt . cum autem admiscentur a●●qui ●ic●i , qui verè non credunt , id accidit praeter intention●m ecclesiae si ●n●m cos n●sse posset , nunquam admitteret , aut c●su admissos , continuè excluder●t . bellar. de eccles. l 3. c. 10. see also d. field of the church , book 1. cap. 7. * such were called of old , {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} euseb. notes for div a30650e-8190 * eph. 2. 21. prov. 5. 16. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. obj. ans. 1 tim. 5. 17. phil. ● . 1. 1 cor. 12. 28. a●●● 6. & 20. * ●alingen . 1 tim. 6. 15. gen. 4. 4. * heb. 13. 10. 15. col. 2. 23. calv. comment . in gen. cap. 4. tenendum est , non fuisse temerè ex cogitatu● ab illis sacrificandi morem , sed traditum divinitus , &c. * heb. 13. 10. 15. 1 chron. 28. 11. 12 , &c. to v. 19. psal. 2. act. 3. 22. * 1 pet. 2. 4. * revel. 1. 6. * mat. 13. 19. * act. 10. 3● . luke . 19. 6 , 7 , 8 , 10. * act. 10. 3● . luke . 19. 6 , 7 , 8 , 10. gen. 9. 27. * act. 25. 11. * mat. 10 ●● . * rom. 13. 7. * ioh. 6. 66. * 1 cor. 11 , 22. * revel. 15 ▪ 3. obj. ans. * rom. 4. 11. 16 * iohn 13. 30. the writings of b●za and er●stus one against the other , are extant . panstratie catholicae . tom. 3. de libertate christiana . lib. 15. c. 10. de prohibitis idolothytis , sāguine , & suffocato . illis aderat extra ordinē spiritus sanctus : adeo ut quae illi proponerēt , a deo simpliciter manarēt . atreliquis pastoribus adsistentia spiritus nulla extra ordinem : itaque ne eorū quidō sanctiones eodem loco habitae cū apostolorum sanctionibꝰ . precip autē discrimé in obligatio ● conscientiae , quae se restem habet , deū solum judicem : ideo ūhabet aliquid imperatum a deo , non potest nō obstringi . * 2 thes. 2. rev. 4. 10. the nature of church-government freely discussed and set out in three letters. burthogge, richard, 1638?-ca. 1700. 1691 approx. 183 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 29 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2003-11 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a30632 wing b6152 estc r30874 11675156 ocm 11675156 48089 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a30632) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 48089) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1481:9) the nature of church-government freely discussed and set out in three letters. burthogge, richard, 1638?-ca. 1700. [4], 52 p. printed for s.g., london : mdcxci [1691] attributed to burthogge by wing and nuc pre-1956 imprints. imperfect: pages cropped with loss of print. reproduction of original in the cambridge university library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng church polity -early works to 1800. 2003-04 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2003-05 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2003-09 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2003-09 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the nature of church-government , freely discussed and set out . in three letters . london , printed for s. g. in the year mdcxci . to my noble friends , svv . y.b. t.r. en me. sirs , i present you in the following letters , the true idea ( as i take it ) of church-government ; which could it be received by all others , with the same degree of candour i assure my self it shall by you , would be of infinite advantage to end those fatal controversies that for many ages have perplexed , and , in this last , almost destroyed the church . i prefer the way of letters to set out the notion , for two reasons : one , because it is the more insinuative , and a way that is much taken , at this time ; the other , because really there were letters sent by a non-con . to a conf. in which most of the things were said that are in these ; only now they come refined from all the reflections that were personal , and from some mistakes . for my own part , i have nothing of fondness in me for any opinions ; nor do i hold my self obliged unto these in the letters , further than as they shall endure the tests of truth : i am very willing they should undergo them all , by strict examination ; though , i confess , i am as loth they should be put to torture . if upon the severest enquiry any thing can be found in them , or duly inferred from them , as to the main , that will not stand with good authority , sound reason , good order of policy , or christian piety , i shall soon shake hands with them : but till then i cannot believe it any crime to own what i am fully perswaded of , and what i am sure is no popery , that ecclesiastical government is a prudential thing and alterabl● ; and that the only true english of [ jure divino ] in the present case , is [ by law established . ] i am , iune 8th . 1690. sirs , your most humble and obliged servant . the first letter . sir , it must be acknowledged that you took a very right method in the business of church government , to search , ( as you say you did ) into its very original ; and had not some of the prejudices of your education , or of your circumstances ; stuck too fast to you , i suppose that way you would at least have discovered the institution of the twelve apostles at first , before our lord's passion , and of the seventy disciples to have been only temporary ; as well as in accommodation to the mosaical policy , in which were twelve philarchs or heads of tribes , and seventy elders . after our lords passion , when he was risen again from the dead , and about to ascend into heaven , concerning himself no further with the seventy ( of whom under that denomination , we read nothing afterwards in the christian church ) he gives a new and large commission to the twelve apostles , and assigns them two works . the first , the making of disciples or christians all the world over , by declaring and publishing every where , what , upon their own knowledge , they were certain of , in reference to christ , that so , by being witnesses unto him , they might both aver the truth of christianity , and ( being many ) even compel belief of it . and after they had made christians , to put them under orders , according to the rules which christ had given them , acts 1. 3. in two words the apostles were first to make christians , and then to frame them into churches . in this properly the nature of an apostle consisted , that he was a person authorized to preach the gospel of christ upon his own knowledge , as being himself a witness of him ; and in this his office differed from that of an evangelist ; for though an evangelist , as such , did preach the gospel where it was not heard of before , and consequently made christians and planted churches , in which his office agrees with that of an apostle ; yet herein it differs , that to be an evangelist ▪ it was not necessary ( as it was to be an apostle ) that he should be a witness to christ ; it was enough to qualifie an evangelist , for evangelizing that he had certain tradition ; but to be qualified for an apostle , he must , by the evidences of his own senses have had certain knowledge of christ. this notion of the apostleship is not only couched by our saviour in what he tells the apostles , iohn 14. 26. and at his ascension , acts. 1. 8. but is intimated also in the history of the election of matthias unto the apostleship , acts 1. from 15 to the 26. and most plainly set out in all of them taken together in conjunction , for so they make it demonstrable . iudas was once numbred with the apostles , as being one of the twelve , but he fell from that degree and honour by his transgressions , and therefore that the scripture might be fulfilled , which had said another should succeed him , peter at an assembly of the believers proposes the ordination of one in his room . and the better to regulate the election , he first instructs them in the nature of the office , and work of the apostleship , to which that ordination was to be made , and this he says , is , with the rest of the apostles , to be a witness unto christ , and particularly to his resurrection ; and then informs them , how a person must be qualified to become capable of being ordained to this office , to wit , that he must be one of those that had accompanied with them , all the while the lord jesus went in and out among them , even from beginning to end , from first to last , beginning from the baptism of john , unto that same day that he was taken up from them ; he must , it seems , be such an one as had always been with the lord , or else he could not be qualified to be one of the twelve 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , says peter , therefore must one of these men that have accompanied with us , &c. and why must one of these ? but that it was the proper business and work of such an apostle , as was one of the twelve , to be a witness of christ to all that he had said , and done , and suffered ; and none could be such a witness but one that had been always with him , from first to last . and if the former is the true idea of an apostle ( as you may plainly see it is ) then no diocesan bishop or any body else indeed can be one now , for whoever is an apostle must be a witness to christ , and must have seen him , and that too after his resurrection : and to be one of the twelve , must also have been always with him from first to last , even to s. paul himself , who having not conversed with christ upon the earth , and therefore could not properly be one of the twelve , our lord appeared in an extraordinary manner to qualifie him for the apostleship ; so that as all the apostles were extraordinary officers , it might be said of paul , that he was an extraordinary superadded apostle . it is true the apostles were called bishops by s. cyprian , but it had been more ( though even then not much ) to your purpose if he had called bishops apostles ( as somewhere he does : ) christ is called a bishop , and that by a greater man than cyprian , and yet i believe you will not infer from thence , that the bishops are christs , or are the successors of christ. i acknowledg also , that the apostleship is stiled an episcopacy or a bishoprick , acts 1. but then it is called in the same chapter a deaconry too , verse 25. and therefore i hope you will no more infer , that an apostleship and a bishoprick are the same thing from the communication of the names , than for the same reason , that the apostleship and a deaconry are so . the apostleship was an episcopacy , but not such an episcopacy as that is which you contend for , any more than because it was called a deaconry , it was such a deaconry as that which was not instituted till some time after , acts 6. episcopacy is a word of ample signification ; for , not to mention prophane authors , as homer , plutarch , cicero , &c. in which we read the word : it is certain basil applies it often unto god ; peter in his first epistle applies it unto the elders , and here in the acts 1. it is applied unto the apostles ; and therefore being a word of so general signification , nothing is deducible from it , as to the special nature of any office , except by way of analogy . to be plain with you , the writers of the first century ( cyprian was in the third ) had no thoughts that appear of any such succession of bishops in the office of the apostleship , as you imagine ; even that ignatius you so much admire and who pleads so much for the prelacy of bishops , though he compares them sometimes to god , and other times to christ ( which i believe you insist not upon , because you thought it a little too much ) , yet he never that i can find compares them to the apostles : their college , if you will believe ignatius , was imitated , not to say succeeded by the presbytery . i add , that eutichius in his annals of alexander tells us , as hierom also does , that st. mark ordained , that the presbytery of the church of alexandria should consist of 12. and no doubt in imitation of the college of the apostles , the presbytery of that church did very early consist of that number , though possibly not so early as to be an institution of the evangelist mark. in fine , not one word in clemens romanus ; a writer of the first age , of any such succession of bishops distinct from presbyters , in the office of the apostleship ; he knew but two orders of apostolical institution , to wit , the bishops and deacons ; of which more hereafter . now if the proper work and office of the apostles consisted in their being , by office , the first preachers , and witnesses of christ , by whom they were immediately sent for that purpose , then certainly that work and office , as well as their mission to it , was extraordinary , and but temporary . and if after they had made christians by their preaching , and had framed them under perpetual standing orders , they did on some occasions interpose their own authority , either by way of direction upon new emergences , or else for reformation of abuses and miscarriages ; that was extraordinary too , and by vertue of a jurisdiction naturally arising , and remaining in them , ( as also in the evangelists ) as they were the fathers and founders of churches . but that this authority which was paramount and extraordinary , is devolved upon any other persons , as successors of the apostles , lyes on you to evince ; and i think it is an hard province : for either the apostles instituted such successors which you call bishops , ( and i for distinction-sake will call prelates ) while themselves were living ; or else they did not institute and induct them while themselves were living , but only ordained , that after their decease there should be such prelates in the church , as their successors , but not before . if you say the apostles instituted and inducted prelates as their successors while themselves were living , i demand how that could be ? can any come into the places of others , even while these others possess them ? and again i demand , whether there were , or could be any officers instituted by the apostles over whom themselves retained not jurisdiction ? for if the apostles retained their jurisdiction ( which i suppose you will not deny ) over the prelates they instituted ( if they instituted any ; ) then they trans●erred not their jurisdiction to these prelates , that is , the prelat●s were not such successors of the apostles as you conceit them ; for none does give that which he keeps . i believe therefore you will say , the apostles did not institute and induct the prelates while themselves were living , but ordained , that after their decease there should be such in the churches , as their successors . but where i pray you is the ordinance recorded ? in what scripture , in what fathers of the first age ? or how came you to know of such an order ? if no tradition either of the holy scripture , or of the most ancient and primitive fathers transmits it ? all of any aspect this way , in any father of the first age , is in clemens romanus , and he is against you ; for having premised what is very remarkable , and much to our purpose , that the apostles knowing through our lord jesus christ the strife that would one day be about the business or name of episcopacy , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , he adds , that for that cause ( to wit , to end such strife ) they ordained bishops and deacons , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , they appointed the forementioned officers , and the officers forementioned were only bishops and deacons , of whom he had said before , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they , ( namely the apostles ) appointed the first fruits ( of those cities and countries where they had preached ) approving of them by the spirit for the bishops and deacons of those that should afterward believe . this is a plain testimony ( so plain , that i see not how it can be evaded ) that the holy apostles instituted only two orders of officers in the church , of which one indeed was that of the bishops : but this order of bishops being the order that is contradistinguisht unto that of the deacons as well in this father and in others , as in the sacred scriptures , it must be understood of the presbyterian , and not of the prelatical orders . and when intimated that the two orders of bishops and deacons were the fixed standing orders , which the apostles had instituted , to continue in the church from time to time , i did it with good authority ; for clement having asserted that the apostles instituted bishops and deacons , to put an end to all contentions about the office of episcopacy ( which would have been endless had not the apostles thus provided against it : ) he adds , and moreover they gave it in direction , that as often as it should happen that those persons whom they had appointed should decease , others that were approved and worthy should receive their charges . by this time you may see how little that transaction about the incestuous corinthian on which you insist so much , does serve your purpose : for s. paul his interposition in that business was purely apostolical and extraordinary , from beginning to end , the cognisance he took was extraordinary , by his apostolical spirit or revelation , as hierome interprets it ( absent in body , but present in spirit ; ) the censure extraordinary , which was to give the incestuous up unto satan , as to a tormentor : so hierome carries this also ; and the manner of the execution extraordinary too , to wit , by delegation of his apostolical spirit , to the church of corinth , ( when you come together and my spirit . ) so that the whole proceeding was extraordinary ; and though you are pleased to call it an act of episcopal or prelatical authority , and to make an argument of it for diocesan jurisdiction ; yet , unless you can find diocesans now that have the spirit , that can have a cognisance of things at distance by revelation , that can give up persons to satan as to a tormentor , and that can delegate their spirit to a congregation , the exception lying against it will still continue in force . wherefore as yet i see no other prelacy instituted by the apostles , but that of the presbyters over the people ; nor are there any officers now of any denomination , which ought to have ( though you seem to intimate that some ought ) a mission like to that of the apostles ; for as they were ambassadours , that were sent immediately by christ , as he was by god , and brought their credentials with them , sealed by the holy ghost ; so i will not scruple to call them extraordinary upon this account too , any more than to call the presbyters and deacons ordinary , even though the papists and the socinians do so : the first missions were extraordinary , whiles the church was to be constituted ; but in a constituted setled church , in which the officers are ordinary , their calling is so likewise . but to let you know what standard there is of extraordinaries , ( for this you demand ) i believe i have no more to do but to remind you of what you already know , that the use of speaking or common language is that standard ; for certain , you that have read so often in cicero ( not to mention livy , suetonius and others ) of honores extraordinarii , praesidium extraordinarium , potestas extraordinaria , cannot be ignorant that that is extraordinary , which being not the setled standing perpetual order and use , is only for some certain time , and on some particular special occasion or accident . and it is in this sense of the word that the roman magistrates , in respect of time , are distributed by lipsius into extraordinary and ordinary , when he says , aut enim ( magistratus ) à tempo●ibus dividuntur , ut ordina ii extraordina●ii . illi dicti qui statis temporibus , & semper in republicâ essent , u● consul●s , praetores , ediles , tribuni , quaestores ; isti qui nec eodem tempore , nec semper , ut dictatores , censores , inter-reges , &c. it is true you tell me , that the commission , matth. 28. is not peculiar to the apostles , and that therefore it does not evidence , they were extraordinary officers ; for ( say you ) there is indeed a charge given them to baptize and teach , but it seems a wonderful way of proving them to be extraordinary officers , from the authority they had to do that which any ordinary minister may do : and that by vertue of this commission . by vertue of this commission ! excuse me as to that , every body will not yield it ; some think , that this commission was personal , given only unto the apostles . go ye ; and inforced with a promise that related only to them directly , lo i am with you to the end of the world ; that is , to the consummation of the mosaical seculum ; for so they understand that phrase , and apprehend , they have sufficient reason to do so , upon comparing it with matth. 24. 3 , 14. but let that be as it will. indeed ! is the commission given to the apostles , matth. 28. not peculiar to them ? are they empowered by it to do no more than every ordinary minister may ? i had thought that ordinary ministers had been limited and local , not unlimited and oecumenical officers ; and that , by their institution , they were confin'd to teach and rule the particular churches over which they were appointed , and not to teach and rule the whole world , or ( as the apostles had ) to have care of all the churches . i pray tell me , is a parish-priest of as great authority , as a diocesan ? and yet a diocesan compared with an apostle , is less than a parish-priest : the whole world was the diocess of the apostles . go ye , teach all nations . i profess i am much surprized to find you deny , without distinction , that the apostles were extraordinary officers ; especially after dr. cave in his history of the lives of the apostles ( which i believe you have read ) distinguishes their work , and shews what was extraordinary in it , and what was ordinary . but possibly you foresaw , that should you have spoken plainly , and have said as he does , that their ordinary work [ the standing and perpetual part of it , was to teach and instruct the people in the duties and principles of religion ; to administer the sacraments ; to institute guides and officers , and to exercise the discipline and government of the church . ] i would easily reply , that the apostles had provided themselves of successors , as to all this work , but that these successors were the presbyters which they instituted in every church , to feed and govern it ; and that having ordained no others , it looks as if they saw no need of others . but having this occasion , i beg your pardon if i use it , to set out more fully the institution which the apostles made , for the government and edification of the churches , and how that institution came to be altered , and by what steps . first then the apostles instituted a senate , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a college of presbyters in every church , to feed and govern it ; and this is evident from acts 14. 23 , 25. where paul and barnabas are said not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in the churches but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , — in every church to have ordained elders ; a college of elders , not a single elder or bishop . and as they are not said to have ordained a single bishop or elder in any church , so much less are they ( said ) to have ordained any prelate or intendant over many churches ; every church , as a body politick compleat , had sufficient power within it self , for all its ends : they ordained elders in every church . and to me it is plain that clement had regard to this practice of the apostles , when , in the place i cited before upon another occasion , he says of them , that going through countries and cities preaching the gospel , they appointed the first fruits of them to be bishops and deacons , having approved or confirmed them by the spirit . that the apostles instituted many presbyters , and not a single presbyter , in every church , is further confirmed , not only from the frequent mention of a presbytery found in ignatius , which ( as i shall shew hereafter ) was congregational , but by the express testimony of clement , who blames the church of corinth for raising a sedition and stir against their presbyters , ( and therefore there were many in that church ) only upon the account of one or two persons ; so that it is plain , there was a college of presbyters in the ancient apostolical church of corinth again , in the presbytery or college , which was ordained in every church , though all the presbyters were equal , the institution making no difference ; for paul and barnabas are said to constitute elders , but not to constitute elders and a bishop , as a superiour over them ; yet it being requisite for order-sake , that some one in every assembly should have the direction , and that honour naturally falling on the eldest presbyter unless some other course be resolved ; it is most probable , that at first , the eldest presbyter as he had the first place , so he had the first direction of matters : but afterwards , it being found by experience , that the eldest was not always the worthiest and fittest for that purpose , it came to pass , that the place devolved not any longer by seniority , but was conferred by election : and in this s. ambrose ( if it be he , and not rather hillary ) in his comment on the fourth to the ephesians is plain . vid. sixt. senens . bibl. sanct. l. 6. annot . 324. and admitting that all the presbyters were called bishops , as undoubtedly at first they were , it is easie to conceive how the first presbyter came to be called the bishop , and at last , for distinction-sake , to have the name of bishop so appropriated to him , that the rest retained only the denomination of presbyters . but all this while the bishop was but the first presbyter , and had no more authority in the college of presbyters , than is allowed to s. peter in the college of the apostles , by all protestants . even epiphanius himself ( if we may believe danaeus ) was at last compelled to confess , that in the time and age of the apostles , no such distinction [ as that is which you contend for , ] was to be found between the bishops and presbyters . again , though all the presbyters in every church had like authority to preach and rule , ( both functions being comprehended in the episcopacy assigned to them , 1 pet. 5. 2 , 3. ) yet some of them being better qualifyed for the one , and some for the other , it is probable , that they exercised their different talents accordingly ; some of them more in the one , and some more in the other . this ( as strange as you may make it ) seems plainly intimated in that injunction of the apostles , 1 tim. 5. 17. let the elders that rule well be accounted worthy of double honour , especially they who labour in the word and doctrin : for here is a plain distinction of elders , of which some being better at ruling , and some at preaching , they exercised themselves according to the talent they had ; those that were better at ruling , in ruling , and those that were better at preaching , in labouring in the word and doctrin . and since labouring in the word and doctrin had the special honour , no question but the first presbyter , as most honourable , was always of the number of those that laboured that way ; so that the bishop was the pastour also , or preaching elder , that is , the preaching spiritual work became appropriated to him , at first eminently , but afterwards entirely ; and then nothing lay in common between him and the presbyters but only rule . and this is what i can gather from scripture of the apostolical settlement . upon the whole it is evident , that a diocesan bishop was unknown in the first age of the church , and the only bishop to be found then , was the presbyter ; which is further confirm●d , in that the scot● , who received the knowledg of christianity very early , even in that age , had not any knowledge for many ages after , that appears , o● any but presbyterian jurisdiction . even bishop spotiswood , in his history of the church of scotland , tells us out of boethius , and boethius from ancient annals , of the culdees , or ancient scottish priests and monks ( who , he believes , were called culdees , not because culteres dei , as most think , but because they lived in cells , their names , as he says , being kele-dei and not culdei , in old bulls and rescripts . ) he says of these culdees , that they were wont for their better government to elect one of their number by common suffrage to be the chief and princip●l among them , without whose knowledge and consent nothing was done in any matter of importance , and the person so elected was called scotorum episcopus , a scots bishop ; and this was all the bishop that he could find in the first times : but b●cha●an is plainer , who tells us , that no bishop ( to wit an order superiour to that of the presbyters ) ever presided in the church of scotland before paliadius his time ; the church ( says he ) unto that time was governed by monks , without bishops , with less pride , and outward pomp but greater simplicity and holiness thus i have e●idenced what the s●a●e of things was in the first times of the christian churches , to wit , that those were governed by presbyteries , in which all the presbyters were equal , and all bishops , only , for order-sake , there was a first presbyter , who having more care and more work , had yet no more authority and power than any other ; but as the best men are but flesh and blood , and the best institutions lyable to rust and canker , so these were not exempted ; there was a diotrephes in the apostles own times , and those that followed him improved upon the example : the first presbyter soon became advanced into another order , and from being first , commenced prince of the presbyters . we are told by d●naeus , who citeth epiphanius ( and he might have cited others ) that this departure from the primitive institution began in alexand●ia ; and it is very probable , that the appointment of twelve presbyters , besides a president ( for so eutichius assures us it was there ) did give occasion to the president , who easily took the hint , to challenge to himself the place and authority of christ , when the very number of presbyters , over whom he presided , made it manifest that they were an imitation of the apostles . but whether other churches took their pattern from that of alexandria or no , 't is easie to conceive in what manner , and by what means the mistake might gain upon them : for after the first presbyter became elected , and consequently was separate by prayer and imposition of hands , no wonder he was ●oon taken for an officer of another order , much superiour unto that of the presbyters , who was distinguished from them by that token of a new ordination , and was in place above them . ay , it is highly probable , that the first recess from the primitive institution , even in alexandria , began this way , if that be true that grotius hath observed , that the election of the president presbyter came not in use there but after the death of mark : so that it was not ( as eu●ichius reports it , ) an institution of this evangelist . but what way soever this alteration had its beginning , one may be tempted ( if the epistles going under the name of ignatius be indeed his ) to think that it had it very early ; for this father doth every where speak of the bishop in respect of the presbyters , as of god in respect of christ , and of good or christ in respect of the college of the apostles ; and these are such magnificent expressions of superiority , that though they proceeded not from any elation of mind in him that used them at first , and used them perhaps but as rhetorick , yet they could not but occasion other sentiments in others , viz. as of the bishops being of a superiour order , so , of something of domination and lordship in his office. and yet how great soever the degeneracy was in the time of ignatius , or very near it , it was not so great then as in the following ages ; ignatius his bishop for all the gawdiness in which he dresses him , was only a congregational , not a diocesan bishop ; those first times knew nothing of the diocesan princely prelate , even the president , that iustin martyr mentions , was but a congregational pastour . that ignatius his bishop was only pastour of a single congregation is evident in many passages , but i will cite but two or three to evince it . the first is in his epistle to the ephesians , where he speaks of the prayer of the bishop , and the whole church , ascending in consort unto god ; so that the bishop was the mouth of the congregation . and afterward , in the same epistle , in an exhortation to these ephesians , when he presses them to obey their bishop , he speaks of them , as of a single congregation , that could meet together for acts of worship . again , in his epistle to the magnesians , whom he also presses to obey their bishop ( for this indeed is the burthen of all his epistles , ) he plainly speaks of them as of a single congregation ; do you all assemble and meet ( saith he ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , together , for so that expression is rendred 1 cor. 14 23. i have shewed what the primitive institution was , as to church-orders , and have shewed also how and how early , the alteration that was made in congregations came on ; it was first a presbytery , and the senior presbyter the president ; then a presbytery , and the president elected , but still a presbyter ; afterward a president and no presbyter , not an ab beth din , but a nasi ; not a senior presbyter , but a prince , or chief over the presbytery . and certainly one need to have but a little experience , in the course of things , to make a clear and distinct conception of what hath been said upon this subject . that which remains to compleat the discourse , is to shew the same way , from common principles , how the ecclesiastical prelate , ( or that bishop over several congregations ) of the better fort , such as cyprian , augustin , &c. ( if indeed they were such ) did first spring up . i conceive ( with submission to better judgments ) that this bishop ( of whom we read nothing that i know of in the first age , or till towards the end [ if then ] of the second , ) arose from the large progression , and spreading of christianity ; for then in great cities , and their appendages , the number of professors grew so great , that all could no longer meet together in one place , to celebrate divine offices , so that necessity compelled them to divide into several congregations ; which , if settled , must have several officers , as bishops , presbyters and deacons ; yet still the bishop of the mother congregation as he had the main hand ( which is to be presumed ) in forming and settling the daughter churches , so he still pretended to keep an authority and jurisdiction over them . and this indeed had something of a resemblance unto the apostles ; who as they planted many churches , so they had always a care of them ; but how far the analogy will hold , or where it strikes out , i shall not trouble you now to say ; it is enough for the present to have shewed , that ecclesiastical prelates had not apostolical institution , and that , at best , they arose but by occasions , and prudentially only , upon the increase of believers . what confirms this notion is , that we never read in the first age , and but rarely ( if ever ) in the second , of bishops that pretended it of themselves , or that were affirmed by others , to be the successors of the apostles . in those first times , no such pretentions had place ; but afterwards , when necessity arose in the churches of sending out their colonies , then the bishops of those churches , that sent them out , soon found , in the jurisdiction of the apostles , something , that by way of analogy , and with a little stretching might serve to countenance theirs , over those that they had settled . these are the sentiments i have as to the ius divinum of episcopacy ; in which i have made evident what episcopacy it is i do believe is ●ure divino , and what not : but i intend not to discourse now of the ius ecclesiasticum , by which only a diocesan bishop , or of the ius civile , by which the lord bishop is constituted . my province now , is only to shew , what i have shewed , that the presbyter is the only bishop iure divino & apostolico ; and that prudential considerations only made the prelate , first the congregational , and afterward the diocesan prelate , of the better sort . and in these assertions i have my vouchers , and those fathers , and fathers as learned , and as pious as any churches ever owned , and cited too by bishop iewell . verily ( saith he ) chrysostom saith , inter episcopum & presbyterum interest fermè nihil , between a bishop and a priest ▪ in a manner , there is no difference . s. hierom saith somewhat in a rougher sort : audio quendam in tantam erupisse vecordiam , ut diaconos , presbyteris , id est , episcopis anteferret , cum apostolus perspicue doceat , ●osdem esse presbyteros quos episcopos . i hear say there is one become so peevish , that he setteth deacons before priests , that is to say , before bishops : whereas the apostle plainly teacheth us , that priests and bishops are all one . s. augustin saith , quid est episcopus nisi primus prepbyter , hoc est , summus sacerdos ? what is a bishop but the first priest , that is to say , the high priest ? so saith s. ambrose , episcopi & presbyteri una ordinatio est : vterque enim sacerdos est , sed episcopus primus est . there is but one consecration of prie●● , and bishop , for both of them are priests , but the bishop is the first . and to what these fat●ers say , we may add the testimony of learned grotius , who , for the reputation he hath justly gained in the world , o● great knowledge , and exact criticism , may possibly signifie somewhat with you . he in his epistle to bigno●ius commending that of cl●ment , which i have often cited ; among other considerations that induced him to approve thereof , as genuine , notes this as a main one , quid ●us●qu●m me●●nit exortis iliius episcoporum auctoritais quae ecclesiae consuetudine post marci mortem alex n●●iae , atque ●o exemplo alibi introduci coepit , sed-pla●è ut paulus apostolus , ostendit ecclesias communi prisbytero●um , qui iidem omnes & episcopi ipsi pauloque dicuntur consi●io ●uisse gubenatas . that clement no where makes any mention in his epistle , of that eminent authority of bishops , that by the custom of the church , began when mark was dead , to be introduced at alexa●d●ia , and after that example in other places ; but he plainly shews , as the apostle paul also does , that the churches were [ then ] governed by the common council of the elders , all of which are stiled bishops by him , as well as by s paul. by what i have said you may see how little satisfaction i received in the proofs you gave me of the early distinction between bishops and presbyters , for none of them do reach home unto the first age , and to the d●ocesan prelatical bishop ; and if they did , would move me but little . for as for tertullian , he more than seems to be on my side , when speaking of the christian congregations , both as to their discipline and government , and to their worship , he says , praesident probati quique seniores , hon remistum non pretio , sed testimonio adepti ; that the presbyters have the rule and government in them . as for clemens alexandrinus his imitations of the angelical glory [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] , in which you do imagine you have found the orders of the celestial hierarchy , imitated in the bishop , presbyter and deacon ; this is but a flourish of rhetorick in that father ; who though in his pedagogue he speaks of bishops , presbyters and deacons , as also of widows ; yet in his stromata ( lib. 6. & 7. ) where he treats of the ecclesiastical orders more at large , he mentions but two , the presbyters , and deacons , and plainly intimates , that the bishop was only a presbyter honoured with the first seat. but i am much surprized at your citation of the emperor adrian his epistle to servianus recorded by phlegon , and related by vopiscus ; for certainly it appears by that epistle that adrian had but little acquaintance with the egyptian christians , and then , his authority is of as little moment ; or else , these christians were of the worst of men ; for he represents them , as well as the other inhabitants of egypt , to be a most seditious , vain , and most injurious sort of men , and particularly says , that those which worship serapis were christians , and that the bishops of christ were devoted unto serapis : he adds , that the very patriarch ( ipse ille patriarcha ) coming into egypt , was constrained of some to worship serapis , and others ( to worship ) christ. was ever any thing more virulently said of christians ? and indeed more mistakingly ? for as for the devotion of their bishops to serapis , i cannot imagine any occasion that these christians should give , which , with any colour , should render them suspected of that idolatry , but their signing with the sign of the cross ; and this might , it being a way of professing christianity , that at that time was newly become the mode , and probably it had the fate of new modes , which is , to be approved of by some , and be rejected and nick-named of others . i am the more inclined to think that this story of serapis had some relation to the christian bishops , who signed with the sign of the cross , because i find in pignorius , in his exposition of the mensa isaica , that serapis was used to be denoted by a cross , vrceo ( says he ) superne infixa crux serapidem notat . and says rhodiginus , lect. ant . l. 10. c. 8 , 9. figuram ejusmodi ; ( speaking of the cross ) serapidis pectori insculp●bant egyp●ii : adding , out of suidas , that in the time of the emperour theodosius , when the temples of the greeks were destroyed , there were found in the sacrary of serapis certain hieroglyphic letters which resembled a cross. but to let this pass , i see no cogency in the citation you make from the emperour adrian to evidence any such distinction between a bishop and a presbyter to have been in that time as is in ours , and as you do plead for ; for in that epistle there is only the name of bishop and presbyter , without any specification of office signified by it , either as to its nature or limits ; a●d possibly some will tell you , that by the coherence of t●e epistle , it is not so clear , but that adrian might intend the same officers by bishop and presbyter . but i have no list to engage in such a dispute ; and therefore hasten to tell you what is above any , that i am , sir , your humble servant . the second letter . sir , i expected , that as i had essayed to set out a scheme of church-government , and such a one as i believed and do still believe , to have been the primitive and original , and of apostolical institution ; so you likewise would have given a scheme according to your sentiments ; and then , by comparing scheme with scheme , and each with the account of the scriptures , and other undoubted accounts of the first century , we might at last come to have made a surer judgment , which was the right and which the wrong , than now , in the parcelling and retailing way you take , it is possible to do . indeed , to gain a true light into the nature and frame of church-government , in the whole extent of it , one ought to distinguish the several states and circumstances in which the church hath been , and accordingly consider the several orders , which were in it , in those several states , and the grounds and reasons of those several orders . now the church ( i speak of the catholick or evangelical church ) may be considered , either as it was a constituting , before it had received external form and shape , as to orders : or after it was constituted ; and that the apostles , who had not only received instructions from their master what to do in things pertaining to the kingdom of god , but were likewise invited by the concidence of events , had put their last hand unto it . again , the church , after its being constituted and clothed with orders , undergoes a double consideration , for it may be considered , either as it subsisted and stood alone , singly , in a state of separation from secular governments of the world , or as it is united to them by the laws and ordinances ( that in several countries are several ) which they have enacted and established about it . whosoever considers the church whilst constituting , before it had received its external form and orders , ought at the same time to acknowledg , that of necessity there must be persons to constitute it , and cloth it with these orders ; which persons , if vested with authority so to do , are properly officers : but yet , in that performance , cannot be conceived to be or act as ordinary officers , these being permanent and standing , and belonging to the church as constituted ; whereas that office had its place before the constitution of the church , as being ordained to constitute it . this office ( as i evinced in my former paper ) appertained to the apostles , it being their work to lay the foundation of the christian church , by preaching the doctrin of christ , as true upon their own knowledg , and consequently making believers or disciples , which was to gather the church ; as also by instituting of officers , and giving rules about them ; which was to put the church under orders , and to settle its government . on this account the church is said to be built upon the foundation of the apostles and the new jerusalem , the city of god , ( or the evangelical church in its most reformed state ) is described in the revelations to have twelve foundations , answering to the twelve apostles ; who by the doctrin which they preached and witnessed , and the order which they setled , did indeed lay the foundation of the christian church , and set it on foot . it is true , the evangelists as well as the apostles were ( in part at least ) the founders of particular churches ; but the apostles only ( with the prophets ) have the honour of being stiled founders of the church ; these being the only persons that were commissioned by our lord christ for that end : he immediately sending and directing his apostles , but these sending and directing the evangelists , who are therefore called by some ( and not unfitly ) apostoli secondarii , apostles of the second order : so that i do distinguish between the founding of the church which was done by the apostles only ; and that of particular churches , which was performed by the evangelists as well as by the apostles . by the church , which for distinction sake i call essential , to discriminate it from particular constituted churches , i mean nothing but the whole multitude or company of the faithful , as they are united to christ , and hold communion with him , as well as one with another , by one common faith , and by the participation of the holy spirit . and of this church all that do believe in , and make a true profession of christ ( though as yet they are not ranked in any particular one ) are members , and have their several uses , according to the measure of the dispensation given them ; from which measure some are principal and some are less principal members ; he gave some apostles , and some prophets , &c. this essential church , though it is a kind of a body , society and city , yet it is not a secular politick body ; i mean not a body , united in it self , under one external visible head , by any universal politick orders and dependencies that run throughout it , such as are in secular governments , whether monarchical , aristocratical or democratical , to make them one . but it is a spiritual mystical body , a body united unto christ the head by the spirit of faith and love , under the laws and rules of christianity ; a religion which obliges all its members to communion one with another ( as much as is possible ) for mutual edification and comfort . could all the members of the christian church have held communion one with another , and ordinarily have met together for the discharge of common duties and offices ; and all have been subject unto one external government , common to them , there would still have been but one congregation of them , as there was at first , and consequently but one church , as to external orders . but the christian church , in the nature of it , being catholick and univers● , that is , not walled in and confined by distinguishing rites and customs , as the jewish was , unto a particular people , but lying in common to all nations , as much as unto any ; so that such external communion and government was absolutely impracticable in the whole , as taken together ; therefore it was necessary that it should be practised ( as indeed it was ) only by parts , each of which parts was to bear the denomination of the whole , as being the whole in little. this is the original of particular churches ; in reference to which churches it may be observed , that as the jewish church ( which some call the synagogue ) was founded in a nation , so the christian church , eminently stiled the church , was founded in a particular assembly ; the mother church at ierusalem was only a single congregation . it was for the former reason , as well as for others , that the apostles , when they instituted church-government , did not give any general scheme that should relate to the catholick church , as to an external body , or to provincial , or to national churches ; but they only setled particular churches , as homogenecal parts of the whole : and these in this order , that as the whole church was a free people that had not one only , but many apostles , who , by the original institution , were to take the care of it ; so in every particular church ( which was to be a vicinage under orders , or a company of professing people , that could conveniently meet together for the discharge of christian offices ) there should be not one only , but many presbyters ( a college of presbyters answering to the college of the apostles , ) who should rule and govern , but as over a free people , and therefore , in all material businesses , with their approbation and suffrage . thus in the mother-church at ierusalem , besides the apostles , which were extraordinary , there was a senate or college of elders , as the ordinary standing officers ; and these , with the whole church , or body of the people and brethren , are convented upon the business of antioch , and thus the apostles paul and barnabas , every where , in every church or congregation , are said to have established a senate or presbyters , and that too by the suffrage or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the people . so that the original government of the church , of apostolical institution , was only congregational ; which congregational government consisted of the people or brethren , and of the presbyters or senate ; in which senate he that presided , tho' in process of time he was called bishop , by appropriation of the name which all the presbyters enjoyed at first in common , yet , in the original institution ( he ) was no more than the first-named presbyter , and so no otherwise distinguished in it , than as peter ( was ) in the institution of the college of the apostles , who is still first named in it . and such a bishop i do acknowledg to have been from great antiquity , namely , a congregational bishop , that had the first direction of matters , a person that was primus , presbyter , a presbyter only in order , and the first of that order in the college of presbyters : but a diocesan bishop invested with the power of sole ordination and jurisdiction , and he a suffragan too ( for this is the bishop that is in controversie between us , ) this bishop you must prove , if you can , and nothing is done if you do not prove him to be apostolical . sure i am that s. cyprian considered himself but as a first presbyter ; and therefore as his name for the bishop is always prepositus , in respect of the people : so he calls the presbyters his compresbyters , ep. l. 4. ep . 8. [ ques ed primitivum compresbyterum nostrum : et l. 4. ep . 6. literae tuae per quintum compresbyterum missae . ay! the 25th epistle of the 3d book is directed to ( his ) compresbyters . and in the 24th epistle of the same book he calleth rogatianus his compresbyter ; but he no where calls the deacous ●●s condeacors ; clearly implying by that denomination , that when he was made bishop he ceased not to be a presbyter , as not become of another order , only he was now a president in it , and possessed of the first chair . i do not find you deny the institution of the presbytery ( the which i have abundantly evinced , ) or so much , that in the first times , the bishop was only the president of it , or the first presbyter , which yet is the main of the cause : and you can as little deny , if you will be just , the power and interest of the people , who are called in scripture sometimes the church and sometimes the brethren , and in tertullian and cyprian the phbs. thus you find in the acts of the apostles , the people concerned in the election of matihias [ peter spake to the whole assembly , men and brethren , &c. ] so in that of the deacons [ wherefore brethren look you cut among you seven men of honest report , &c. ] and in the ordination of the presbyters , for paul and barn●bas , ordained with the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the people , acts 14. 23. again , they are concerned in the censure of the incestuous corinthian , not only by way of approbation , as where it is said , when you are gathered together , &c. 1 cor. 5. 4. but by way of judgment and ex●cution , verfe 12 , 13. in fine , even in the debate and decision of controversies ; for the brethren were together with the apostles and elders , and there was much disputing , ( which , i should think , was rather among the people than among the apostles and elders : ) and the decretal epistle goes as well in the name of the brethren as in that of the apostles and elders , , acts 15. 1 , 7 , 22 , 23. nor were the people entirely deprived and outed of their original power or interest in elections and censures , even in the time of s. cyprian ; for he plainly asserts to them the chief share , both in the election of the praeposii , or bishops that are worthy , and in the rejection of the unworthy ; and this he doth both by the congruity of the old testamet , and the practice recorded in the new ; not only allowing to them ( as some would have it ) a presence in all transactions , but affirming their power ( cypri n's word is potestas ) and their suffrage . propter quod , plebs obsequens praecepiis dominicis & deum metnens , à pectore praeposio separare se debet , cum ipsa maxime habeat potestatem v●l eligendi dignos sacirdotes , vel indignos recusardi . for which reason a people that observes the lord's commands and fears god , ought to separate themselves from a bishop that is wicked , in as much as they , principally , have the power both of electing worthy priests , and of rejecting the unworthy . this is further evident in the resolve , that cyprian ( as himself professes ) assumed at his coming first to the bishoprick , which was , that he would do nothing of business by himself , and singly without the counsel of the elders , and deacons , nor without the consent of the people : solus rescribere nil potui , cum à primordio episcopatus mei statu rim nil sine concilio vestro , ( writing unto the elders , and deacons ) & sine consensu plebis , meâ privatim sententiâ gerere . in fine , in clemins romanus , who preceded cyprian , as living in the age of the very apostles themselves , we have a plain intimation of the interest and right of the people , in the election of presbyters , and in their rejection ; from which also we may conclude the share they had in other matters ; for in his epistle to the corinthians , he says , those who were appointed by the apostles , or by other excellent men 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , with the consent and approbation of the whole church , and who lived worthily , ought not to be ( injuriously ) deprived of their ministration . [ and , by the way , this te●imony of clement shews in what senfe it is said , that paul and barnabas did chirotonize elders , it being evident that it relates to that which stands upon record in the acts of the apostles , of what was done by those two in that kind of business . ] after the former evidences , i do not see how it can be questioned , that the government of particular churches was at first ( what i have affirmed it ) popular and democratical , as consisting of the authority of a senate , and of the power of a people , or in s. cyprian's language , of the majesty of the people , and the authority of priesthood : thus resembling the greek republicks and their ecclesiae , or popular assemblies , which , at athens , were composed of proedri , who directed and ordered matters , and of the people who voted . and even origen against celsus , l. 7. as mr. thorndike tells me ( for i have not origen at present by me ) compares the government of the churches of christ , as i have , to the republicks of the cities of greece . but possibly you will grant me , that congregational government was of apostolical institution ; but it will be a matter of too hard a digestion to yield , there was no other government that was likewise so : and yet , if you cannot give me an apostolical draught of any other church-government , nor one instance ( as i believe you cannot ) of any church in the first century , or till toward the end of the second , ( if then ) but what was congregational , nor of any officers ( besides the apostles , evangelists , and prophets , ) which were not local , and limited to particular congregations : it must then be acknowledged , that no other government ( intended for after times ) but the congregational was absolutely primitive , and of apostolical original ; say not , it might be , though not recorded ; for eadem est ratio non apparen●●um & non existentium ; to us it was not , if it appears not ; perhaps but one church in one city or town at first ; but no instance can be given of one pastor over divers cities and towns. the former ●truth is so great a one , that even in the time of s. cyprian ( when yet too many novelties , not to say corruptions , had invaded the church ) the usurpation that was then begun upon the rights of the people , had not prevailed so far , but that as the bishop of that time was congregational only , and local , ( to speak generally ; ) so he was not ordained at large , but to a certain people , and cure. thus , saith s. cyprian , was sabinus ordained . the passage is very remarkable , and since it not only evidences the point i have asserted , but does also vindicate the presbyterian way of ordination used now , as a way that was used at that time , to wit , by the concurrence of preaching ministers , prepositi , or bishops of several congregations , and the laying on of their , or one of their hands , for this reason i will cite it at large . propter quod ( saith he ) diligenter de traditione divinâ & apostolicâ servandum est & tenendum , quod apud nos quoque , & fere per provincias universas tene●ur , ut ad ordinationes rise celebrandas , ad eam plebem cui praepos●us ordinatur , episcopi ejusdem provinciae proximi quique conveniant , & episcopus delegatur plebe praesente , quae singulorum vitam plenissimè novit & uniuscujusque actum de ejus conversatione perspexit ; quod & apud vos factum videmus in sabini collegae nostii ordinatione , ut de universae fraternitatis suffragio , & de episcoporum qui in praesentia convenerant , quique de eo ad vos litteras fecerant iudicio , episcopatus is deferretur , & manus ei in locum basilidis imponeretur [ or imponerentur . ] wherefore it ought diligently to be observed , and maintained as a thing of divine tradition , and of apostolical practice , the which also is observed by us , and almost in all the provinces , that to the end ordinations may be rightly made , the bishops of the same province , which are nearest to that people for whom , a minister is ordained , do all meet , and that the bishop be chosen , the people being present , who have a perfect knowledge of the life that every one hath led , and also do throughly understand his ability by his conversation . and this we see you also have observed in the ordination of sabinus , our colleague , on whom , as well by the suffrage of the brotherhood , as the judgment of all the bishops , both those that were then present , and those that sent you their letters about him , the bishoprick was conferred , and hands imposed in place of basilides . those learned men that have told us that the christian church was formed after the fashion of the synagogues and not of the temple , or rather the tabernacle , did certainly own a true idea of this business : there was but one temple in all iudea , as but one church , and one high priest , to whom the other priests , as also the levites , in severel orders , were subordinated , as well as one to another , in a certain line of dependance . but the synagogues were many , and many in one city , even some hundreds in ierusalem , and in every synagogue , ( if all had one form ) there were many rulers : now particular churches are unto the catholick church , the same , in proportion , that synagogues were to the jewish . to be sure , this is manifest to whosoever considers it , that christ and his apostles did carefully avoid the imitation and similitude of the tabernacle in all their institutions , and all their orders : the apostles were never called chief priests , nor the presbyters priests , the ministers the clergy , nor the people the laity ; no national form of church government was ever established , no consecration of officers ; no garments or holy days , or other such like observances , were ever appointed by them , in conformity to those of the tabernacle . but when the judaizing opinion , which prevailed mightily even in the days of the apostles , had , after their decease , diffused and spread it self farther , so that christians came into an admiration of the orders , beauty and pomp of the temple , which was but a fixed tabernacle , and christianity it self became considered ( as by some it is this day ) but as another kind of judaism , then ministers were turned into priests , deacons to levites , and ordination to consecration ; the sacrament of the lord's supper was turned into a sacrifice , the table to an altar . the tabernacle , times and seasons of easter and whitsuntide , became generally observed , ( only with some little bowing , and bending of themselves to christianity , ) and the tabernacle maintenance in time became insisted upon also , as well as the tabernacle title . thus began the defection , which upon the tabernacle grounds , and by pretences of some analogy unto the orders of that fabrick , did afterwards grow up to a great height in most countries , in a national form and dependance , but in none to that perfection , as under the papacy ; which as it doth divide its rites and observances ( almost all ) from the tabernacle , so it can pretend to very little authority for them , but what conceited analogies , and some congruities of reason , taken from the tabernacle orders , and the tabernacle worship , do afford unto them ; but christ and his apostles appointed not any national forms , as that under the tabernacle was . indeed , had the apostles owned any pretentions of a design to erect a national ( much more an universal ) hierarchy , or form of external government in the church , or had they done any thing to occasion a just suspition of such a design , it would have much obstructed the true design and end of their mission , which was the planting and spreading of christianity . for then , magistrates and rulers , in their own defence , and for preservation of their own inherent prerogatives and rights , must have always opposed it ; since the permission of such an authority , such a power over their subjects , that would not only possess an interest in their consciences , but be strengthened , as a secular empire , by a close connection of all the parts of it , and an exact dependance and subordination , would render their own precarious ; such a pretence must needs have awakened the jealousie of kings , as indeed it did , when christ but spake of a kingdom , though spiritual , and but in hearts ; much more then , had it been an external and visible kingdom , for then , reason of state , would for ever oppose christianity . but notwithstanding all that i have said , i doubt not but you will tell me , that the government of the church is universal , and that there is a catholick hierarchy ; that the apostles were ordinary standing officers , and that , as apostles , they were the very same in the primitive church , that diocesan bishops are now ; and dioccsan bishops , the same now the apostles were then ; that the apostles exercised juridiction over the particular churches which they instituted ; and that timothy and titus , who were bishops ( not congregational , but diocesan bishops ) were ordained such by s. paul. and as you will tell me these and the like , very plausible things , of bishops ; so i make no question but others will tell me as plausible of the council at ierusalem , and of the government of the catholick church by councils and synods of bishops , in correspondence to that ; that the apostles , as apostles , should be diocesan bishops , and that diocesan bishops , as such , should be apostles , seems so strange an assertion , and so much against the common sense of most believers , that i would rest the controversie on that issue . sure i am , nilus archbishop of thessalonica tells us expre●ly , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . &c. the pope is no apostle , for the apestles did not make or ordain apostles , but pastors or teachers ; much less the chief of the apostles : thus he . and indeed there were but twelve apostles originally , which number was so stated that it gave denomination to their order , they were called the twelve . as for paul , who also was an apostle , and not of the twelve , he was the minister of the gentiles ; and as these were a kind of proselytes to the jewish church , so he was a kind of proselyte or super added apostle : himself expresses it , that he was one born out of due season , 1 cor. 15. 18. and for the offices of apostleship and episcopacy , i have shewed in my former letter how much they differ . 't is true , you say , that bishops are sometimes called apostles , and that too by the fathers ; but , you may remember , i acquainted you they were not stiled so by any fathers of the first century , or till towards the latter end ( if then ) of the second : else , that bishops are sometimes called apostles i know , and dr. cave hath many citations to that purpose , to which you have added some , and might have added more : but the sense in which they were called apostles , is that only which is of any concern to us : and certainly , notwithstanding all that you have said to the contrary , it doth not as yet appear , that those bishops that were called by the antient fathers , apostles , were diocesan bishops ; for they might be , and really , for all that glorious denomination , they were but congregational prelates , who , because in a sense they were successors of the apostles , and the same , in some proportion , unto particular churches , that the apostles themselves were to the general , even for that reason they were called apostles , and all as well as any diocesans . that the bishops compared to the apostles by s. cyprian ( who is one of the first that compares them so , ) were only presbyterical and congregational bishops , is evident , in that , even there where he so compares them , he doth plainly contradistinguish them to the deacons ; for even there he mentioneth but two orders , as s. paul to timothy doth ; and therefore must be understood to mean as he doth , the one of the bishops , and praepositi , which he compares to apostles , and the other of the deacons , who , he saith , were appointed by the apostles , as indeed they were , acts 6. to be their , and the churches servants , meminisse autem diaconi debent , quoniam apostolos , id est , episcopos & praeposi●os dominus eligit , di●conos autem post assensum domini in coelos , apostoli sibi constituerunt episcopatus sui & ecclesiae ministres . and 't is plain in that citation , which i made before from s. cyprian , that his bishop or praepositus ( for both in him are expressions of one and the same office ) was a preaching minister , ordained unto a certain people [ ed eam plebem cui praeposi●us ordinatur , &c. ] again , that the preaching ministers or pastors of congregations were considered , as in a sense , successors of the apostles , and compared to them on that account , is farther evidenced from the testimony of nilus , who , in his book of the primacy of the pope of rome , hath these words , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and what then may one say ? is not the pope entirely the successor of peter ? yes he is , but 't is as he is a bishop , and is no more than what every bishop that was ordained by peter may easily challenge . but there were may that by his ( namely peters ) hand received this grace of episcopacy ; ay , every priest this way is a successor of that apostle , from whom , by tradition , he received priesthood , and thus there are many successors as well of peter as of other apostles ; but in other respects they have no successors . thus he speaketh plainly , that bishops and pastours succeeded the apostles , but not in the apostleship ; of this there is no succession : and dr. reinolds is fully of the same opinion , and speaks home . indeed it is a point ( saith he ) well worth the noting , that as you do notoriously abuse the church of christ ( speaking to hart ) for you perswade the simple , and chiefly young scholars , who trust your common-place books , that chrysostom spake of peter and peter's successors , in the same meaning , that the pope doth , when he saith , that peter and peter's suceessor is the head of the church , and bindeth by solemn oath to be obedient to the bishop of rome , the successor of peter , whereas s. chrysostom meant by peter's successors them whom christ doth put in trust to seed his sheep , as the master of the sentences and thomas of aquin do give the name of peters successors to all priests and prelates ( as they term them ) that is , to all pastors and doctors of the church ; as s. augustin teacheth , that it is said to all when it is said to peter , dost thou love me ? feed my sheep . as s. ambrose writeth , that he and all bishops have received the charge of the sheep with peter ; as the roman clergy apply it to the rest of the disciples of christ , and the clergy of carthage too . thus dr. reinolds . but i stay too long on a matter that in no degree deserves it ; for to inferr , that all bishops are properly apostles , because they have the name of apostles , is to imply , that identity of names , will inferr an identy of offices , at which rate ioseph the mittendary in epiphanius , whom he calleth an apostle , would have the honour of being a bishop , and indeed , on that account his title is all as good as bishop epaphroditus's . 't is true , you tell me , you believe as s. hierome likewise did , that epaphroditus was really the bishop , because he is called the apostle of the philippians , phi. 2. 25. but as it is true , that in the greek it is [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] your apostle , so it may well be acknowledged , that our english translators do render that expression very well [ your messenger ] since nothing is more evident than this , that the coherence and connexion of the text will carry it to that sense . i suppose it necessary to send to you epaphroditus my brother and companion in labour , and fellow soldier ; but , your messenger [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] and minster of my necessities ; which indeed he was , as appears by chap. 4. 15 , 18. now the philippians know that no church communicated with me , as concerning giving and receiving , but ye only ; i am full , having received of epaphroditus the things ( which were sent from you , ) but my god shall supply all your need , &c. to wit , as you by him have supplied mine . that the apostles exercised a jurisdiction over particular formed churches , and over those particularly , which themselves had founded , is as little to your purpose , if bishops are not ( which they are not ) either of the order of the apostles , or else founders of churches , as these were ; as in it self it is a truth , and not to be questioned . the jurisdiction of the apostles over particular churches undergoes a double consideration , in neither of which it symbolizeth with the diocesan or episcopal ; for it may be considered , either as it was an appurtenance and incident to the office of the apostleship , to wit , as the apostles were founders of the church essential and thus all the apostles , as they had one commission , so they had equal authority , equal jurisdiction over all the churches . or it may be considered as accruing to the apostles from more particular respects , to wit , as they were the fathers and founders of particular churches : the former i call essential , the latter accidental jurisdiction of the apostles . take the jurisdiction of the apostles in the first consideration , and then diocesan bishops can no more pretend thereto , than they can to the office of the apostleship [ which was oecumeuical for its extent , as well as infallible for its execution , ] it being an appurtenance and incident only unto this , and dyed with their persons ; or , take it more particularly , for that authority which they assumed , and were understood to have , in a more particular manner , over the persons they had converted , and the churches they founded , ( between which and themselves on that foot , there was a more particular relation than between others and them ) although in this consideration the jurisdiction of the apostles was no other than what was common to them , with the evangelists or any other persons that planted christianity , made conversions and setled churches in any particular regions or places ; yet even this is as far from being diocesan as from being ordinary . a founder that institutes a college , settles orders and makes statutes , though he doth not constitute himself ( as rarely any does ) a visitor , yet , on extraordinary occasions , and in difficulties arising about the meaning of statutes , or their application , upon incident emergencies he would think it but a duty , while himself lived , and the founded should think it theirs , to have recourse unto him and to take his directions ; but he dying , that authority , as being incident only unto his person , dyes with him ; founders , as such , have no successors . i touched in my former letter on this latter jurisdiction , in respect whereof , in a right sense , one apostle may well be affirmed to have had an authority and power , in some places , and over some persons , more than another ; for thus , in a particular manner , paul was stiled the apostle of the uncircumcision , as peter was of the circumcision . the apostle paul , 1 cor. 4. expostulates with the corinthions on this account ; he assereth the authority he had over them , and shews the ground of that authority ; for he affirms , that as he was their father in christ , so he had an authority over them , as a father over his children , ver . 14 , 15 , 16. i write not these things to shame you , but as my beloved sons i warn you ; for though you have ten thousand instructors in christ , yet have you no : many fathers ; for in christ iesus i have begotten you through the gospel . thus he claims an authority over them as being their father , or one that had converted them , which authority he plainly distinguishes from theirs , who were only instructors . now bishops as such , are but instructors of churches , not fathers ; they may convert and proselite single persons , but as bishops they do not found churches , but only feed the churches already founded . in vertue of this authority , as he was their father and founder , the apostle exercised that jurisdiction over the church at corinth , which you call episcopal ; a thing so evident , that nothing can be more , to one that observes the connexion : for in the latter end of the fourth chapter , he evinced ( as i said ) that he had a paternal authority over them , as well as care for them ; and immediately in the beginning of the 5th . as an instance of that authority , he gives them that direction about the incestuous person , upon which you i● sist. so that in this transaction ( with the corinthians ) the apostle acted not as an ordinary bishop , but acting by vertue of that authority which he had over them , as he was the person that had converted them , and was their father and founder . the quality he acted in was extraordinary , and particular . again , the cognisance he took was extraordinary too , he was present in spirit , and not in care and affection only , [ affectu et sollicitudine ] as , by a supposed parallel in the expression , coloss. 2. 5. you would have me believe ; for he makes his presence the ground of his proceeding in the censure or judgment which he pronounced , for i verily as absent in body , but present in spirit , have iudged already , and all judgment must proceed upon evidence , by view , or proof , not affection , and therefore his presence , which is the ground of his proceeding , must be a spiritual view . the report or general scandal , which is mentioned ver . 1. on which you insist , was but a motive ( to the apostle ) to invite him to consider the matter , it was not the ground on which he proceeded in his censure : this , as he plainly affirms , was his spiritual view , or presence in spirit . and what spirit ? but that same spirit mentioned afterwards in the same text ; ( which spirit you must yield to be extraordinary , and apostolical ; ) when you come together , and mr spirit ; it being but reason , that the same spirit which gave in evidence , should also assist at the execution . but this latter spirit ( you say ) was but a letter , or authority , conveyed by the apostles letter ; and why ( say i ) the latter spirit not the same with the former ? and where , i pray you , is ( spirit ) taken for a letter , or for anthority conveyed by it ? i am sure this same apostle distinguishes letter , word , and spirit , 2 thess. 2. 2. and therefore , [ and my spirit ] should not be [ and my letter , ] especially when joyned in the manner it is here with the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the mighty power of our lord jesus christ ; which , what it is , may more particularly be understood by act. 1. 8. but you shall receive the power of the holy ghost coming upon you . and the sentence passed by s. paul , was as extraordinary as the cognisance whereon he grounded it : for [ to deliver to satan ] was not to excommunicate , either with the lesser excommunication , which is suspension from the sacrament , or with the greater , which is a solemn excision from the church . some will tell you it was a censure wholly unknown unto the jews , who yet had all the forms of excommunication , nidui , cberem and maranatha ; and that in the whole new testament , nothing in the least is said to support this thought , that tradition to satan is excommunication . the delivery to satan ( as many of the the antient fathers believed , some of whom your self do cite ) was certainly a judiciary giving the dilinquent to the devil , as to a tormentor , for so the apostles phrase doth carry it , when he saith it . it was done 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , for the destruction of the flesh ; and it was practised only by the apostles , by their apostolical power , of which see petrus molineus in his vates , l. 2. c. 11. you do indeed acknowledg at last , that corporal asfliction , or pains inflicted by the devil as by a tormentor , had place in the first times , and by virtue too of apostolical censure ; but then , by way of qualification , you say also , that it was a consequent of excommunication : but this is a thing that will not be received mee●ly upon your authority , or upon the authority of any men , that lived in times remote from the first ; for it requires a proof , either from some text of the holy scriptures , or from some other record of that same time. it is clear to me , that the exaresis , the separation or taking away from among them , is the only excommunication that is mentioned by the apostles in 1 cor. 5. and yet i fancy , since it answered to the jewish nidui which excluded not from the temple , it is not that which you intend . however , it is plain that this exeresis was not a delivery unto satan ; for the apostle speaks of the separation or taking away of the man from among them , as of a thing they ought to have done of themselves , without any interposition of his , verse 2. and you are puffed up , and have not rather mourned , that he that hath done this deed night be taken away from among you ; to wit , according to the purport of a former epistle v. 9. whereas the delivery unto satan was the apostle's own proper act , effected by his apostolical spirit , and by the mighty power of the lord jesus christ , verse 3 , 4 , 5. again , it is plain that this exaresis was nothing but their noncommunicating and nonconversing with the incestuous , the corinthians being obliged in point of duty , to have excluded him from their society , so as ordinarily not to keep him company ; for such a direction had bin given to them by the apostle in a former epistle , v. 9. as a rule of their deportment towards the ungodly , which rule he yet found himself obliged to explain and qualifie in thi , as which was only to be understood of their demeauour towards professou●s , and indeed , ( unless they would go out of the world ) practicable only towards these , and so , not to be understood absolutely and unlimitedly , of all , verse 11. and having touched their remisness , verse 2. and reinscrced his direction with its due limitation and qualification verse 10 , 11. ●e presses them to follow it in their carriage towards this incestuous person , verse 13. therefore put away from among your selves , that wicked person ; therefore , to wit , because i did write unto you in a former epistle , not to accompany with fornicators , which now i tell you must be understood of professors that are such , therefore put away from among your selves that wicked fornicator ( and so purge out the old leaven ) by avoiding conversation and society with him , as much as is posfible . the connexion sheweth , that not accompanying with this wicked one , is the same with purging out the old leaven ; and not accompanying with him was their putting him away from among themselves : not accompanying with him was their judgment upon him , but the delivery of him unto satan was the apostle's ; no instance can be given of any persons that gave up any unto satan but the apostles . thus , if you please to take the trouble of reviewing the text , a second time , with its intire coherence , you cannot but observe , that it shews , that something must be done by the apostle's own power , and something by the people's : in what relates unto the apostle's , there is first the motive or inducement he had to consider the matter , and this was the general scandal of it , verse 1. secondly , the evidence whereupon he did proceed to pass this sentence , which was his own spiritual view , though he was absent in body , yet he was present in spirit ( the antithesis must be marked ) and therefore he judgeth , verse 2. thirdly , the sentence which he passed , and that was , that the criminal should be delivered to satan , verse 5. fourthly , the manner how this sentence was to be executed , and that was , in a full congregation , in the name of christ , with the apostolical spirit , and by the mighty power of the lord iesus christ , verse● . and shew me the diocesan that can do all this . what follows in the chapter relates to the judgment of the people , and their putting of the incestuous away ; which ( as i have shewed , and that by the reference and coherence ) is quite another thing than the delivery of him to satan . by this time i believe it is very manifest , that diocesan jurisdiction cannot be founded with any clearness of title upon the instance alledged , this being plainly apostolical , and grounded on that authority which s. paul had in a particular manner over the church of corinth , both as he was an apostle , and as their apostle and founder ; and no example must be pressed further than the ground and reason thereof will carry it . as for timothy and titus , who are honoured by you ( as well as by other . ) with the title of bishops , there is fo● much said toward the unbishoping of them by mr. prinne and by smectymnuus , &c. that i need say nothing ; wherefore i will only offer , that neither of them is stiled a bishop in the holy scripture ( for the epistolary postscripts are none ) when-ever it mentions the being of them at their reputed bishopricks ; the one at ephisus , the other at crete . again , timothy in effect is stiled an evangelist by s. paul ; for when this apostle exhorts timothy to make a faithful discharge of the office committed to him , his expression is , do the work of an evangelist , 2 tim. 4. 5. and indeed as an evangelist was a secondary apostle , that is , not a settled standing officer , fixed in any one planted constituted church , but an assistant to the apostles in planting and settling churches ; so we find timothy , as an itinerant officer , often going from place to place upon occasion , as he was invited or imployed by paul. the stay he makes even at ephesus , was only upon the desire of that apostle , and not from any obligation arising from the duty of his place , as had he been a bishop it would certainly have been ; for 1 tim. 1. 3. paul is said to request timothy to stay at ephesus , but is not said to have ordained him bishop there . in short , the tenor of the epistle , that mentions the being of timothy at ephesus , as it directs him in the choice of officers , and gives him disciplinary rules , so it sheweth plainly , that his business there was to perfect the work of the settlement of the church begun by paul ; and this is the more probable , because his stay and business is limited to that apostle's return , 1 tim. 1. 3. compared with chap. 3. 14 , 15. chap. 4. 13. and for titus , it is as evident that all his business at crete was that of an evangelist as that timothy's was so at ephesus , for he was left at crete ( that is the expression ) he is not said to be ordained bishop or metropolitan there , no more than timothy is said to be ordained the bishop of ephesus , but as the latter is affirmed to be requested to stay , and not to have been settled as bishop there , fo the former is only said to be left at crete . and what for ? but to do the work of an evangelist , for so it was , to assist and help the apostles in the work of founding and settling the churches ; for this cause left i there in crete , that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting , or left undone ( to wit , by paul ) and ordain elders in every city , t it 1. 5. in the acts of the apostles paul and barnabas are said to ordain elders in every church , and here titus is said to be left in crete to do it . indeed both timothy and titus in what they did , the one at ephesus the other at crete , were only deputies that acted as by delegation of s. paul , according to the instructions which he gave them ; for this apostle saith to titus , i left thee in crete to ordain elders , as i had appointed , and sets out the qualifications that titus must observe in the elders he ordained , tit. 1. verse 6 , 7 , 8 &c. in like manner he instructs timothy , how he was to behave himself in the house of god , in settling elders and deacons , 1 tim. from 1 , to 15. so that if bishops be not evangelists , as well as apostles , i do not see of what advantage timothy and titus their business at ephesus and at crete can be to your cause . 〈…〉 of our lord was bishop of ierusalem , 〈…〉 and that he is stiled bishop by s. luke , who yet had a fair occasion 〈◊〉 it in his acts of the apostles , had iames been indeed such a bishop ; nor is he so styled by any other of the sacred writers ; and if we except the r●● clement ( in an epistle said to be his ) the first that stiled him so was hegesippus , who lived at least a whole century after . another clement , he of alexandria , is also cited by theodorus mitochita and by others , to prove it ; but really the story as clement tells it , ( if they represent him right ) carries its own confutation ; for they make him say , that iames , by divine appointment , was ordained to be the first bishop of ierusalem , to prevent any emulation and dispute , that peter , iohn and the other iames might otherwise have had for that honour . but however that was , i do acknowledge for my own part , that iames was bishop of ierusalem , but i acknowledge it only in the sense in which he was bishop of all the other churches , and he was no more in the opinion of the first clement , if we credit bishop iewell ; for this bishop in the defence of his apology , part 2. page 98. brings in clement speaking thus , i send greeting unto iames the brother of our lord , and the bishop of bishops , governour of the holy church of the jews at ierusalem , and also of all the churches , that by gods providence are every where founded ; here , faith bishop iewell , iames is the head of all churches whatsoever . by this testimony it plainly appears , that iames the reputed bishop of ierusalem , as he was iames the apostle , so he was no otherwise bishop of that city , than as peter was of rome , and how that was , dr. reinolds has told us in his conference with hart , where he saith , but whether eusebius , or hierom , or damasus , or whosoever have said that peter was a bishop , either they use the name of [ bishop ] generally , and so it proves not your purpose , or if they meant it , as commonly we do , they missed the truth : for generally a bishop is an overseer , in which signification it reaches to all who are put in trust with oversight and charge of any thing , as eliazer is called bishop of the tabernacle , and christ the bishop of our souls . but in our common use of speech it notes him to whom the oversight and charge of a particular church is committed , such as were the bishops of ephesus , philippi , and they whom christ calls the angels of the churches : now peter was not bishop after this latter sort : for he was an apostle , and the apostles were sent to preach to all the world ; wherefore when the fathers said he was a bishop , either they meant it in the former sense , or ought to have meant it . in fine , it may not be amiss on this occasion to take notice of an observation made by a learned man ( and he too a bishop ) in reference to the testimony of fathers , to wit , that they wrote things they saw not , and so fram● matters according to their own conceits ; and many of them were taint● with partial humours ] : which another , more softly , expresseth thus ; t●● they , ( namely the fathers ) finding the name of bishop continued in the 〈◊〉 cession of one paster after another , judged 〈…〉 according to them that lived in their times ] an observa● 〈…〉 use , with respect to the fathers , that lived at a greater distance than 〈◊〉 be of clement did , from the apostolical time . thus i have briefly touched the arguments offered by you in affirmance of diocesan episcopacy ; only to that , which is taken from the angels of the churches in the revelation , i have said nothing , because i do not think it worthy of a particular consideration : for since these angels , for ought we know , might be only so many several presidents of the presbyteries in congregational churches , the instancing of them makes but little for your purpose , who do affirm diocesan prelacy . but as you have argued for diocesan authority , which you would have of apostolical institution , so others do for the synodical , which ( as they apprehend ) is grounded upon the synod ( so they call the assembly ) at ierusalem , that was convened upon the appeal made by the believers at antioch . for , say they , this controversie was absolutely and finally decided by that0 synod , and a decree or canon made , and this sent not only to the church at anticch , but to all the churches besides , of syria and cilicia . i deny not that the former practice was the occasion of synods , or assemblies of bishops ; but i affirm that that assembly , though it had something in it of more resemblance to a synod properly so called , than is in meer convocations , of the clergy , the brethren ( as well as the apostles and elders ) being in that assembly , who generally are excluded from convocations ; yet it was not properly a synod . a synod properly , whether diocesan , provincial or national , being but an ecclesiastical parliament , of the one sort , or of the other ; in which all that are obliged by the determinations and resolutions of it , must be understood to be in person , or by representation ; as either being there themselves , or else electing those that do compose it , to represent and stand for them . the controversie at antioch was about a doctrinal subject , of great concernment , whether circumcision and obedience to all the mosaical laws was necessary to salvation ; for this some of iudea taught the brethren , and were opposed for it by s. paul and barnabas ; but the contention running high , and neither side yielding , all agreed to send to ierus●lem to the apostles and elders , ● to the original deliverers of the christian doctrin , which being a doctrin ●f faith , and not of discourse and ratiocination , they rightly judged that it ●ust be resolved at last , into the testimony and witness of those who had re●ived it from christ , and those particularly , whose office it was to transmit it ●to others , and to vouch it . so that in this respect the case is particular , the ●peal was made unto the apostles and elders , or old disciples , as those ●o having conversed with our lord , had immediately received the christian ●trin from him ; which reason for the appeal was peculiar to those persons ●made and received it , and therefore can be none for others , taken either in the private , or in representative capacities . further , there is something else in this business that was very peculiar ; i know it is affirmed , that the holy ghost did assist in this assembly in a special manner , and that the same assistance and guidance is promised to all others that convene in christ's name , either for the decision of controversies , or for government of the church ; and that any synod lawfully called , and proceeding lawfully , may say in their decrees , as the apostles , and elders , and church do hear , it seemed good to the holy ghost , and to us . i acknowledge them very learned and worthy men that think so , but i must beg their pardon if i differ from them ; for , with submission , i conceive that the phrase [ it seemed good to the holy ghost ] hath no relation to any assistance and guidance of the holy ghost that was afforded by any extraordlnary illumination of mind , to them that met on that occasion , and so it makes nothing for infallible direction in council ; rather , it relates unto the decision which the holy ghost in effect had already made of that controversie , by his descending upon some of the gentiles , who had believed in christ as peter preached him , without any mention of moses , or of his law , acts 10. from 34. to 45. for it was the descent of the holy ghost upon the believing gentiles , who were strangers to the law [ a descent that was not transacted immediately by the laying on of the hands of any apostles , but was an immediate descent , such an one as that was which had been made before upon the apostles themselves on the day of pentecost , ] it was this descent that ( being a sealing of them by the holy ghost , ephes. 1. 13. ) was urged by the apostle peter as an argument against the imposition of the mosaical yoke , which argument was confirmed and strengthened by barnabas and paul , and at last by iames , ( who doth not give a difinitive sentence as the translation carries it , and you somewhere say , but only gives his judgment . ) and this , in fine , did carry the matter ; so that it is evident , that no council , synod , or assembly of men may say , [ it seemed good to the holy ghost , and to us ] in their decisions , as the apostles and elders did , and because they did , if that council , synod , or assembly has not such a particular manifestation of the holy ghost , to bottom their decisions , as the apostles and elders had ; when the apostles and elders said [ it seemeth good to the holy ghost , and to us , ] they meant , it seemed good to the holy ghost by his descent , and to themselves upon full debate . but to return ; the church wilest it stood in its state of separation from secular government , must be considered to have been in a double condition ; the first while the apostles were living , who as they had an extraordinary charge , so they had a proportionable power over all the church ; the second , after the decease or other removal of the apostles , when the church was left to it self : for in these different circumstances , the proceedings were very different , both as to the punishing of offenders , and to the ending of controversies . whilst the apostles ( who had an extraordinary and supernatural rod ) were living , and in a condition to use that rod , as there needed no other discipline but that , to terrifie flagitious and great offenders ; so i find no other used , and that too , but rarely ; the greater excommunication had no place , that i can find , ( unless where diotrephes ruled ) in that state of the church : besides the apostolical rod , it was only non conversing with , or abstaining from the society of offenders , that was used as a remedy for the reducing of them ; and this by apostolical order . indeed , the apostles were not so much for cutting off from the church , as for inviting and calling men into it : the kingdom of heaven is compared to a dragnet . but after the decease or other removal of the apostles , when the terrour of their rod was vanished , and when god himself did no longer ( as at first he seem'd to have done ) in extraordinary manner , particularly punish for particular sins , as in the case of the corinthians , [ for this cause many are sick and weak among you , &c. ] and no assistance could be had from the sword of the magistrate without scandal ; in that state , necessity grew upon the church to make its discipline straighter and more awful , that so , having something in it of severe and rigorous , the terrour ( of it ) might restrain , and the execution reform . hence came the church-covenant or voluntary subjection , which ( saith lewis du moulin ) is intimated by pliny in his epistle to trajan , in his sacramento obstricti ; and ( says mr. selden ) by origen contra celsum , when he spake of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the christians . and hence , by degrees , and as occasions obliged , it came to pass , that excommunications , the greater and the lesser , grew into use ; the former not so much by a positive institution , as by the common law of society ; and the latter by congruity to the apostles direction , 1 cor. 5. 11. both which though they carryed terrour in themselves , yet , to add , to it ( as the estimate of the privation ever doth depend upon that of the possession ) admission into the church , and consequently to the lord's table , were practised with more formality than in the apostles times . now comes in a solemn distinction of chatechuneti and fideles , and the candidates of christianity must take time before them , must 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , must pass through many degrees before they can attain to the happiness of being admitted to a participation of the priviledges and rights of the faithful . it was now also that the notion of a catholick vnity obtained , which was not understood at that time to be internal and spiritual , an unity of faith and charity only . but to consist in something external , relating unto order and discipline ; as being an unity that was to be maintained by communicatory , and other letters , and by orders , and ( that ) was intended to support the notion of but one bishoprick in the church , and that every bishop participated of that one bishoprick in solidum . a notion , that was of great use to make their dicipline and power the more pointed ; for if but one church , then to be cast out of any part of the church , was indeed to be ejected out of the whole ; and if but one bishoprick to be participated by all the bishops , what was done by one , was done by all ; all did censure , if one did ; the expulsion made by one bishop , out of any church , was in effect , an expulsion from all the churches ; and so a cutting off entirely from christianity , and all communion of saints . thus they aimed in a general bishoprick , at what the church of rome doth in a personal ; in affirming which i do not impose upon you ; for s. cyprian is plain , hoc ●rant utique ( says he in his tractate de simplicitate praelatorum ) & caeteri apostoli quid fuit petrus , pariconsoriio praediti , & honoris & potestatis ; sed exordium ab unitate proficiscitur , ut ecclesia una monstretur , &c. quam unitatem firmiter tenere & vindic●re debemus , maximè episcopi qui in ecclesia praesidemus , ut episcopatum , quoque ipsum unum utque indivisum probemus . thence also came the rails about the table , i mean , the differences of communions , clerical and laical , ( to wit ) to raise the reputation and credit of the clergy , and withal to make their ceusures the more solemn and awful ; as also that the clergy , who were obliged to a stricter and more exemplary life , if they did not live it , might have a peculiar punishment ; which was to be thrust from the clerical communion , and be degraded to that of the laity . in fine , hence publick confessions and rigorous shaming penances in all the decrees of them [ fletus , auditio , substractio , consistentia ] had their beginning ; and also solemn absolutions , by the imposition of the hands of the bishop and of the presbyters ; which things , as being only human and politick , tho' not unnecessary for the time , are all of them alterable , and some actually altered . again , as controversies arose in the churches , either about matters of doctrin or of discipline , the apostles , while they lived and were in a condition ( those especially which founded such particular churches where they arose ) did take care to end such differences , and were accordingly repaired unto for that purpose . thus , in the business of antioch appeal is made unto all the apostles , and for the corinthians , galatian , &c. s. paul particularly cared . but after the decease of the apostles , or a failure of the apostolical infallible guidance by other means , the controversies that arose in any church , became determined by the common counsel and advice of other churches , either by their letters , or by a solemn discussion and debate in an assembly of bishops and elders in provincial councils . we do not read indeed of any rule for this practice ; but the light of nature or common reason directed it ; and there was something too that did lead unto it in the first assembly at ierusalem : for as the apostles and elders were appealed unto by them of antioch , so the whole church was convented , and the business considered and debated by the whole , and by the whole resolved . in sum , the churches of christ in this separate state subsisted by themselves , like so many little republicks , as being only in the world , but not of it , and therefore concerned not themselves in any business with the secular powers : and yet seeing their members were men as well as others , and in the world as well as others , and consequently liable to passions and misgovernment , to common accidents of providence , and to differences too , arising in worldly matters , it was absolutely necessary that some provision should be made , in all these respects , in the church it self , by officers on purpose , or else ( since there was no other remedy ) all would run to confusion . hence , as the ancient christians had deacons for the poor , so they had wisemen ( as the apostle calls them ) or elders , who , to prevent the scandal of their going to law before the heathen , determined matters by way of arbitration ; and likewise restrained and suppressed exorbitant and evil manners , by censuring them : out of the church , to provide for the poor , to end controversies between man and man , and to punish evil doing , was the business of the magistrate . and this reminds me of the third state of the church , when magistrates and powers becoming christians , the christian religion was taken by them into civil protection , and became incorporated into the laws , as that of israel was into theirs , so that now states became churches ; a state professing christianity being a national church , and a national church nothing but a christian nation ; in a word , a holy commonwealth . great was the alteration that was made in the government and face of the church in this condition , from what it was before ; for after the time that emperours became christian , and that they shewed kindness to the church , the hierarchy became a secular thing , it being in this state , that that and the power of councils attained to their full growth ; but yet , in several countries , by several steps and occasions . lavius in his commentary of the roman commonwealth , lib. 1. fol. 22. tells us , that the episcopal diocesses of the christian religion , do , by many very great tokens represent the roman antiquity ; and well he might , for it is plain the form of civil administration after the roman empire became christian ( and in some degrees before , ) was imitated in the church , and that both in the provinces and bounds of the empire , and in the city it self . for as the roman empire was divided into several pretories , which pretories were called pretorian diocesses or sees , and these pretories again ( were ) subdivided into provinces ; and that in every pretory there was a prefect ( of the pretory ) who resided in the metropolis , called sedes prima , to administer and rule the diocess ; and under the prefect , in the several provinces , there were other principal officers , called presidents , to rule and govern them ; so in the church there were the metropolitan primates , or archbishops , who were seated in the metropolis or capital cities , and answered to the prefects of the pretories ; and there were bishops that resided in the inferious citie , who were called suffragan bishops , and those resembled the presidents of the provinces : l , and the parallel holds out further , since a person ( as ioseph scaliger observes ) might be a bishop with archiepiscopal ornaments , and yet not be an archbishop , in like manner as one might be an officer with consular ornaments and yet not be a consul . the same scaliger , in his epistles , hb. 2. ep . 184. also acquaints us , that , in the time of constantine the great , there were four prefects , of pretories , the prefect of the pretorium of constantionople , the illirian prefect , the prefect of the pretorium of rome , and the prefect of the pretorium in the gallia ; adding , that seeing the prefect of the pretorium was of the same degree that at this day a vice-roy is , he had under him vicars , and the vicar , he saith , was the governour of a diocess , or one that had under him a whole diocess , and a diocess was a government that contained under it several metropolies or capital cities , as a metropolis had under it several cities . he further adds , that the ecclesiastical bishop of a diocess , who was in the same degree with an imperial vicar , was called by the greeks a patriarch , and among the latines was a primate of primates , as the bishop of vienna , who had under him two primates , the primate of aquitain and the primate of narbona ; igitur ( saith scaliger ) codem ordine & gradu patriarchs , quo & vicarius praefectus , imperatoris , uterque enim diaecosios est 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ut canones loquintur , ille 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; and ( says barlaam , and indeed the whole greek church ) the deference and respect that was rendred to the see of rome , by the fathers , was so , in this regard ( and only in this , ) because that city was the principal seat of the empire . mr. thorndick , in his book de rat . & jure fin . controv . c. 22. agrees in this sentiment , and is very particular . regiminis forma ( saith he ) quam in imperium à constantino introductam diximus , in praefectorum praetorio potestate iuris dicundi supremo loco à principali , sita fuit . nam praefecto praetorio galliarum suber at galliarum vicarius , qui treviris sedebat . vicarius hispaniarum , qui ut videtur tarracone : vicarius britannarum , qui eboraci ; proprerea enim concilio arelatensi primus subscribit eboracensis , &c. the sense of which i find in dr. stilling fleet , ( now bishop of worcester ) when he says , in his rational account , part 2. ch . 5. f. 394 , 395. for our better understanding the force and effect of this nicene canon , we must cast our eye a little upon the civil disposition of the roman empire by constantine , then lately altered from the former disposition of it under augustus and adrian . he therefore distributed the administration of the government of the roman empire under four praefecti praetorio , but for the more convenient management of it , the whole body of the empire was cast into several jurisdictions , containing many provinces within them , which were in the law called diocesses , over every one of which there was appointed a vicarius or lieutenant , to one of the praefecti praetorio , whose residence was in the chief city of the diocess , where the pretorium was , and justice was administred to all within that diocess , and thither appeals were made ; under these were those pro-consuls or correctores , who ruled in the particular provinces , and had their residence in the metropolis of it , under whom were the particular magistrates of every city : now , according to this disposition of the empire , the western parts of it contained in it seven of these diocesses , as , under the praefectus praetorio galliarum , was the diocess of gaul , which contained seventeen provinces , the diocess of britain , which contained five ( afterwards but three , in constantine's time ; ) the diocess of spain seven . under the praefectus praetorio italiae , was the diocess of africa , which had six provinces ; the diocess of italy , whose seat was millain , seven ; the diocess of rome ten . under the praefectus praetorio illyrici , was the diocess of illyricum , in which were seventeen provinces . in the eastern division were the ciocess of thrace , which had six provinces , the diocess of pontus eleven , and so the diocess of afia , the oriental , ( properly so called ) wherein antioch was , fifteen : all which were under the praefectus praetorio orientis . the aegyptian diocess , which had six provinces , was under the praefectus augustalis ; in the time of theodosius the elder : illyricum was divided into two diocesses ; the eastern , whose metropolis was thessalonica , and had eleven provinces ; the western , whose metropolis was sy●mium , and had six provinces according to this division of the empire , we may better understand the affairs and government of the church , which was modelled much after the same way , unless where ancient custom or the emperour's edict did cause any variation . for as the cities had their bishops , so the provinces had their archbishops , and the diocesses their primates , whose jurisdiction extended as far as the diocess did ; and as the convenius iuridici were kept in the chief city of the diocess for matters of civil judicature , so the chief ecclesiastical councils for the affairs of the church , were to be kept there too ; for which there is an express passage in the codex of theodosius , whereby care is taken that the same course should be used in ecclesiastical which was in civil matters ; so that such things which concerned them should be heard in the synod of the diocess . this adjustment of the church to the civil state in those times , might happily be furthered by a consideration , that even in the first and best there was something that resembled it ; for what the apostles paul and barnabas are said to do 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in every church , titus , when he did the same , is said to do it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in every city ; as if to ordain presbyters in every church , and to do it in every city , was but one thing , and that churches , at that time , were only settled in cities , and but one church in one city ; as indeed at first before the enlarging and spreading of christianity , it seems to have been ord●narily . but whatever induced it , it is certain that christian emperours and kings ( particularly the famous constantine and charles the great ) did out of a pious zeal incorporate the church into the state , strengthen it with laws , and accomodate it and conform it ; but yet so , that notwithstanding that incorporation , the two jurisdictions were still kept too much divided ; the church had officers of its own linked each to other by a mutual dependance , courts of its own , and councils of its own too , as well as the state. i say too much divided , for as it is true , that the church at first did hold its politick administration in some subordination unto emperours and kings ; that these both called and directed councils , gave investiture to bishops , and at last claimed homage from them . and that archbishops that received their palls from the pope , did yet receive their ferulae . ( the ensigns of their jurisdiction ) from the emperours : so , tho' this were something , it seems however to have been an errour in the first projectors , that they made not this subordination and dependance greater , since by this omission empires and kingdoms were in a manner put into a state of war , by setting up in them divided separate jurisdictions . i acknowledg the errour though great , and pardonable only to the zeal and unexperience of the times , remained undiscovered for a while , to wit , till the church had found its own legs ; but then , changing tenure , and claiming iure divim , the hierarchy began to strike at the heads of those who had raised and exalted it , and then emperours and kings themselves must be bearded , and threatned too on all occasions with the spiritual sword , by men , who , but for the temporal , might still have lived upon alms. in fine , the kingdom and priesthood every where contended for superiority , and not a government but had its guelfs , and its gibellines , and then no wonder if iure divino for the most part did carry the point , especially before the reformation . this error was the less excusable , because it was a departure from the great , and in truth , the only example of a holy kingdom , which such pious politicians could propose to themselves , i mean , that of the hebrews , in which , though matters that were purely mattes of religion , were distinguisht from matters purely civil ; the matters of god , from the matters of the king ; yet the jurisdictions that related to them were not divided ; the same senate ( only in distinct capacities ) as it was composed of fathers , as well as of priests and levites , so it had the cognizance of all matters ; nothing distinguished the court in respect of the two kinds of causes , religious , and secular , but that it had two presidents , ( which possibly were to take the chair as the nature of the cause required , ) am●ziah was over them in matters of the lord , and zebadiah in matters of the king , and all by an authority and power derived from the king as sovereign , and supream in all , moreover in ierusalem did iehosaphat set , &c. in truth , the church having submitted to receive incorporation into the civil state , or being favoured with it , ( for you may take it either way ) , it was no longer obliged to continue a divided separate jurisdiction ; for the reason of the churches separate jurisdiction now failing , ( the magistrate being become christian , and consequently ayding , ) the jurisdiction that it had before must fail with it , and so revert to the magistrate . and reason good it should , and that by a reason taken even from the nature of government ; for there ought to be , and indeed there can be , but one spring and fountain of jurisdiction , in one kingdom and government . besides , ecclesiastical government cannot reach but to the external actions of men , and therefore is very improperly called spiritual , since it is not internal ; and the external actions of men , as such , do properly come under the cognisance of the magistrate , [ he being ordained to be the avenger of all evil doing , as well as for the praise of them that do well ; ] and then nothing can remain for the church to do , unless the same actions must be subjected to the cognisance of divided unsubordinate jurisdictions ; which should they be , would breed a great confusion , ( which i must insist upon ; ) and be a great injustice . breed great confusion , for that a person in the same cause , should be absolved by one jurisdiction , and be condemned by another , and this without any means of composure ; for example , that he should be acquitted at the assizes by twelve of the neighbourhood , and yet be convicted in the bishops court , ( which may well happen where the jurisdictions are divided , and then no means is left neither of any composure , if they are also unsubordinated , ) this is confusion : as , that he should be twice condemned , and punish'd twice for one fact , would be great injustice . as for single congregations , they are only as so many little fraternities , gilds , or corporations , and consequently may have constitutions and by-laws of their own , as these have , without the least danger or other prejudice that can be thought of to the states that permit , or protect them . certainly the kingdom of christ , the true hierarchy , is a kingdom that is not secular , or of this world , that is , it is not an external but a spiritual kingdom , a power erected in the hearts and consciences of men , in which he rules and governs by his word and spirit ; and therefore it doth not , it cannot as such , pretend to any jurisdiction ( properly so called ) , there being no jurisdiction ( properly so called ) without coercion and compulsion , and coercion and compulsion is a way that is not used by christ. all the subjects of christ are volunteers and freemen , whom as he brings into his kingdom , so he keeps in it , only by perswasions , exhortations , counsels , and such like methods . and this tertullian believed , who , in l. ad scap. says , humani iuris & naturalis est unicuique quod put averit colere , nec aliis aut obest aut predest alterius religio : sed nec religonis est cogere religionem , quae sponte suscipi debeat , non vi , &c. it is the first and chief right of humane nature , for every man to worship what he thinks he ought ; nor does the religion of one , either hurt , or profit another , nor can it be any religion to compel religion ; religion ought to be taken up of choice , and not by force or constraint , &c. ] so far gone was that father for liberty of conscience ; however , it must be confessed , that if any persons refuse to observe the rules of christian society ( and particularly the rules of that society of which they are members ) it is but reason that they should leave it ; and if otherwise they will not , that they be constrained to leave it : but this by the by . to be sure , the essential church hath no one form of external government assigned to it in the whole ; and it was as great wisdom not to settle any in particular , for national churches : for seeing the church must be extended into all nations , the government and policy of it must be of a nature either ambulatory , so as to be accommodated upon occasion , or ( it must be ) such an one as without interfering with them , can consist with all the several forms of civil and secular government . in my judgment the lord bacon speaks excellently well to this matter , when he says , i for my part do confess , that in revolving the scriptures , i could never find any such thing [ as one form of discipline in all churches , and that imposed by necessity of a commandment and prescript out of the word of god , ] but that god had left the like liberty to the church-government , as he had done to the civil government , to be varied according to time , and place , and accidents , which nevertheless his high and divine providence doth order and dispose : for all civil governments are restrained from god to the several grounds of justice and manners , but the policies and forms of them are left free ; so that monarchies and kingdoms , senates and signories , popular states , and communalties are lawful , and where they are planted , ought to be maintained inviolate . so likewise in church matters , the substance of doctrin is immutable , and so are the general rules of government ; but for rites and ceremonies , and for the particular hierarchies , policies , and discipline of churches , they be left at large ; and therefore it is good , we return unto the ancient bounds of unity , in the church of god , which was one faith , one baptism , and not one hierarchy , one discipline ; and that we observe the league of christians , as it is penned by our saviour , which is in substance of doctrin , thus : he that is not with us is against us ; but of things indifferent , and of circumstance , he that is not against us is with us . bacon's considerations touching pacification , in resuscit . fol. 237 , 238 this sentiment of that excellent person will be much confirmed , if we consider church policy but in one important instance , the calling of bishops ; for this as it has received frequent alteration , and been very different in different times and countries , so it was all upon prudential regards : in cyprian's time , as in that of the apostles , it was as it were iussu populi , authoritate senatus ; by choice of the people , and appointment of other bishops ; how it is now , all know ; and in the intermediate times it has not always been after one manner but various , according unto various times and occasions . in short , the business of pastors and teachers , who are permanent and standing officers in the church of christ , is to feed the flock , by preaching and administring the sacraments , and , on occasion , to denounce eternal torments ( the true spiritual censure ; ) and this will be their business to the worlds end● ▪ but for external rule and jurisdiction , this being but accidental to their office , and arising only from the particular circumstance in which the church was , while separate from the state , now that the magistrate is christian , it doth entirely devolve upon him ; the christian magistrate is the ruling presbyter , and whom he appoints as overseers of the poor , may be called the deacons . it is certain , that in our english constitution , ( not to speak of the french , and that of other foreign kingdoms , ) however some may talk of iure divino , all government or jurisdiction , the spiritual ( as they call it , ) as well as the temporal , is derived from the king ; who , in this sense , is supream ordinary , bishop , and governour , in all causes , and therefore in all courts and jurisdictions . this is evident both as to the legislative part of the government , and to the strictly jurisdictive ; for , as my author tells me , out of the british councils , all the church laws in the time of the saxons were made in the micklemote : and indeed it were easie to evince , that most of the ancient synods and councils in england , as well as in other countries , were meer parliaments . as for the consistory court , which every archbishop and the bishop of the diocess hath , as holden before his chancellor or commissary , this seems not to have been divided from the hundred or county court , before a mandate was given to that purpose by william the conqueror , the exemplification of which mandate is in mr. dugdale , in his appendix ad hist. eccles. cathol . st. pauli , f. 196. before the normans entrance , says mr. dugdale , from sir h. spelman , the bishops sate in the hundred court with the lord of the hundred , as he did in the county court with the earls , in the sheriffs turn , with the sheriff . but to set out the matter by more authentick records ; in the statute of provisors it is affirmed , that the church of england was founded in the state of prelacy by edward the first , ( grand-father to edward the third ) and his progenitors . and in 25th of henry the eighth , chap. 19. in the submission of the clergy , these acknowledge , ( as they say ) according to truth , that the convocation of the same clergy is , always hath been , and ought to be assembled , only by the king 's writ , and farther promise in verbo sacerdo●is , that they will never from henceforth presume to attempt , alledge , claim or put in ure , enact , promulge , or exact any new canons , constitutions , ordinances , provincial , or other , or by whatsoever name they shall be called in the convocation , unless the king 's most royal assent and licence may to them be had , to make , promulge , and exact the same , and that his majesty do give his most royal assent and authority in that behalf . and it was then enacted , that the king should at his pleasure assign and nominate 32 persons of his subjects , whereof 16. to be of the clergy , and 16 of the temporality , of the upper and lower house of parliament , who should have power and authority to view , search and examine the canons , constitutions and ordinances provincial and synodal heretofore made , and with his majesty's assent under his great seal , to continue such as they judge worthy to be kept , and to abolish , and abrogate the residue , which they shall judge and deem worthy to be abolished . it was also provided in the same act , that no canons , constitutions , or ordinances shall be made or put in execution within this realm by authority of the convocation of the clergy , which shall be contrary to the king's prerogative royal , or to the customs , laws or statutes of this realm ; [ there the ecclesiastical legislation is subjected to the king. ] and enacted , that it shall be lawful for any party grieved in any of the courts of the archbishops of this realm to appeal to the king's majesty in the court of chancery , upon which appeal a commission is to be directed under the great seal , to persons named by the king , his heirs or successors , which commissioners have full power to hear , and finally determine upon such appeal ; [ and here the jurisdiction of the church is acknowledged to be originally in the king , and derived from him ; for there the sovereign supream power lodges , where the last appeal , the last resort is . ] add , that in the first year of edward vi. in an act entituled an act for election of bishops , it was enacted , that none but the king by his letters patents shall collate to any archbishoprick , or bishoprick . it was also declared , that the use of archbishops , and bishops , and other spiritual persons to make , and send out summons in their own names , was contrary to the form , and order of the summons and process of the common law used in this realm , seeing that all authority of jurisdiction , spiritual and temporal , is derived , and deducted from the king's majesty , as supream head of these churches and realms of england and ireland , and so justly acknowledged by the clergy of the said realms . it was therefore enacted , that all courts ecclesiastical , within the said two realms , be kept by no other power or authority either foreign , or within this realm , but by the authority of the king's majesty , and that all summons and citations , and other process ecclesiastical be made in the name , and with the style of the king , as it is in his writs original and judicial at the common law. and it is further enacted , that all manner of persons that have the excercise of ecclesiastical jurisdiction , shall have the king's arms in their seals of office , &c. this act was passed in a parliament of the profession of the church of england in 1 eward 6th . and though it were repealed by one of another character in 1 mariae ; yet this repealing statue being again repealed in 1st of iames 1. 25. it seems plain that that of the first year of edward the sixth is revived : but supposing it is not ; yet , in that case , though , the constitutive part remain void , the declarative will still stand good , as shewing the common law. nor doth the late act of 13 car. 2. ch . 12. that restored the bishops only to their ordinary and lawful jurisdiction , invest them in any new , or any that is unlawful at the common law , or that is contrary to the prerogative of our kings . all that i have said on this occasion might receive a further confirmation ( were there need of more ) by the famed character of king kenulphus made to the abbot of abington , in which was a grant of exemption from episcopal jurisdiction ; as there also was in that of king off a made to the monastry of s. albans ; by the title of king edgar , who stiled himself vicar of god in ecclesiasticals , by the offering that wolstan made of his staff and ring ( the ensigns of his episcopacy ) at the tomb of edward the confessor ; by the petition of the archbishop and clergy at the coronation of our kings ; by the form of the king 's writ for summoning a convocation , and of the royal licence that is commonly granted before the clergy and convocation can go upon any particular debates . in fine , by the statutes relating to excommunication , that do both direct and limit the execution of that censure , and the proceedings upon it , as to capias's , &c. and thus much for church-government , in the third state of the church , as it is become incorporated by civil powers : in discoursing of which i have made it plain , that as no national draught is of our lord christ's , or his apostles designing ; so that national churches are all of human institution , and their government ambulatory , that is , alterable according as times and occasions , and as the forms of civil governments in states , that do incorporate the church , oblige it to be , to make it fit and suitable . i am , sir , your humble servant . the third letter . sir , i have always acknowledged some episcopacy to be of primitive antiquity ; but you will please to remember , i have likewise shewed , that that episco pacy was presbyterial not prelatical ; congregational not diocesan ; and that the primitive bishop was only a first presbyter , that is , a chairman in the college of presbyters , and not ( as in the diocesan hierarchy , ) a prelate of a superior order that presided over several congregational churches , and was invested with the power of sole ordination and jurisdiction ; much less was he an officer that kept courts , that had under him chancellours , commissaries , officials , registers , apparitors , &c. and that judged [ per se aut per alium ] in certain reserved cases . to make this out , i presented to you a scheme of the government of the church , both as it was established and settled by the apostles , and as it was afterwards : i shewed , that the apostles in all their institutions did carefully avoid any imitation of the temple-orders , to which orders the prelatical hierarchy doth plainly conform . i shewed also , that the government settled by the apostles was only congregational , the apostles in planting of churches proceeding only after the model and way of the synagogues . ay! all the churches that we read of in scripture , that were constituted by the apostles , were only congregational , not national or provincial ; that is , they were as so many little republicks , each consisting of a senate or eldership , with the authority , and of a people with the power ; but all independant one of another , and all possessed of all that jurisdiction and authority over their members , that was to be standing and ordinary . for this reason , tho' every congregation was but a part , and a small one , yet it had the denomination of the whole , every particular congregation was stiled a church . this will appear more evident , if we consider , that the interest of the people had at first , and long after , ( for above 150 years ) in the ordination of officers , was very great . it is true , the word [ ordination ] or that which answers to it in the greek , is never used throughout the whole new testament , for the making of evangelical officers , nor did it , in this sense , come into use among christians till after the christian church began to accommodate to the language , as well as to the orders of the jewish . but then , as the people was called laity and plebs , so the clergy was called ordo , and this in the same sense of the word , as when we read of the order of aaron , and of that of melchisedeck ; and then too , the calling of any person to the ministry , as it was a calling of him to be of the clergy or order , so it was stiled an ordination , ordination being nothing but the placing of a person in the order of the clergy . but tho' the word [ ordination ] was not as yet in use , in the first times , the thing was , which is the creation of officers in the church ; and in this the people possess'd so great a share ( which is a very good argument of the church's being framed at first after the model and way of republicks ) that even the action it self is called chirotonia by s. luke in the acts of the apostles , , and ever since by the greek fath●rs . ay , the creation of officers is not usually called chirothesia ; for this with the greek fathers was the word that was mostly , if not always , used for confirmation , not for ordination , tho' imposition of hands , the ceremony signified by that word , was the rite which was used by the jews in creating of rabbies and doctors : the act of ordination is usually , if not always denominated chirotonia , or extension of hands , which , in the greek republicks , was the name or word for the popular suffrage . indeed paul and barnabas are said to chirotonize , or , as our translators render the word , acts 14. 23. to ordain them elders in every church . but ( says mr. harrington ) they are said to do so , but in the same sense that the proedri , who were magistrates , to whom it belonged to put the question in the representative of the people of athens , are , in demosthenes , said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to make the suffrage ; and the thesmothetae , who were presidents in the creation of magistrates , are in pollux said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to chirotonize the strategi , who yet , ever since the institution of cliethenes , that distributed the people into ten tribes , were always used to be elected and made by the popular suffrage . nor was this manner of speaking peculiar unto the greeks , but , as calvin , in his institutions l. 4. c. 4. f. 15. observes , it was a common form used also by the roman historians , who say , that the consul created officers , when he only presided at the election , and gathered the votes [ of the people . ] et c'est uniforme commune de parler : comme les historiens disent quun consul creoit des officiers , quand il recevoit le voix du peuple , & presedoit sur l' election . so plain it is that s. luke , in saying that paul and barnabas did chirotonize the elders , intended to signifie no more , but that the elders were made by the suffrage of the people , paul and barnabas presiding at the election , and declaring or making the crisis : and so the new latin translation in beza and piscator renders the text , , qu●mque ipsis per suffragia creassent , &c. i know that some have told us , that iosephus uses the word with reference unto god , he saying , that god did chrirotonize aaron thrice , and therefore to chirotonize is not always to be taken for the popular suffrage ; nor is chirotonizing always taken so . but supposing that the word [ chirotonize ] was used by iosephus , as afterwards it came to be by others , in a second sense , for any creation of officers in general , yet in the primary and proper use it signifies the popular suffrage ; for chirotonia in suidas is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . election , ratification made by all. and this also was the common use of the word at that time when , and in the places ( most of them republicks ) where the apostles are said to chirotonize : and certainly no man can imagine with reason , that the making of elders in its first institution should be called chirotonia , and bear the name of the suffrage of the people , especially in that time , and in such places , had these elders been made in any other manner than by the popular suffrage ; for then the name of the action would have been distinctive or proper , as all original names of things are used to be . besides , what if it should be said , ( as indeed it is by mr. harrington ) that when the congregation or people of israel , upon the several miraculous appearances in favour of aaron , did recognize him again and again for high priest , this chirotonia of the people was the chirotonia of god ? why might not god as president of the congregation in that theocracy , as well be said ( as he is by iosephus ) to chirotonize when the people did , as the proedri who presided in the assembly of the people at athens , be said , by demosthenes to make the diachirotonia ; the thesmothetae by pollux , to chirotonize the strategi ; and the consul who presided at the election of officers at rome , be said by the roman historians , to create these officers ? as for the diachirotonia , tho' you think it the act only of the magistrates , not of the people , because hesychius says , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , you will give me leave to acquaint you , that the diachirotonia was as much the act of the people , or of those suffrage● , as the chirotonia it self ( was . ) for those that suffraged or made the chirotonia , are said , in cases of competition , to diachirotanize , because then , by their suffrages , they did distinguish one of the competitors from the other , and he of the competitors that was distinguished to his advantage , as carrying the office by most voices , was said to be diachirotonized ; and a declaration was made , that he was elected , which declaration was called crisis . all this is evident from plato , who treating ( l. 6. de leg . ) concerning the election of the strategi , in case of competition , says , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . whoever appears to be diachirotonized , [ or to have most voices ] be it declared [ let the crisis be ] that he is elected . here he distinguishes very plainly between the diachirotonia , which he attributes to those that suffraged , and the crisis or declarative judgment , which was the act of those that presided : but he does it afterward more plainly , whe● ordaining that the same rule that was observed in the making of the strategi , should be also observed in that of the taxiarchi , he says , let the same be observed both as to the epichirotonia and the crisis ; that is , as to the suffrage and to the resolve : so that hesychius his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , must be interpreted a discrimination , or preference made by suffrage . as for the jurisdiction of the apostles , i make no doubt but that the apostles , who were elders as well as apostles , 2 pet. 5. 1. acted in setled congregations , where any of them happen'd to be or to reside , with the elders of such congregations , in that capacity of elders ; but as this authority was not properly or purely apostolical , so that which was , both that i call the essential , that was incident to the apostles , as they founded the church , and the accidental , that was incident to them , as they founded particular churches , was extraordinany and peculiar , as being only for that emergent occasion , and not for continuance . to speak generally , governing the churches was as much an ordinary work as ●reaching , and was common to all the elders , whether apostles or not ; but to do it in such a particular manner , with such a rod , and with so large a superintendence , as , in some cases , the apostles did , was extraordinary and peculiar to them . no officers that are now can pretend to a rod like that of the apostles , acts 5. 3 , 4 , 5 , &c. 1 cor. 4. 21 : and therefore none that are now can exercise such a discipline as they did . those that will truly evidence that the prelatical hierarchy is apostolical , ought to demonstrate , that besides the officers setled in all particular churches , to feed and govern them , the apostles and evangelists setled others , as a kind of visitors general , over all , or over many churches together , with the same authority that themselves had exercised , and this for continuance ; without this nothing is done to any purpose . as for the transaction 1 cor. 5. i am still of the mind it was wholly extraordinary , and that it cannot be drawn into example . the apostle says , when you are gathered together , and my spirit , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , [ not with the authority , but ] with the ( mighty ) power of the lord christ , [ to the end ] to deliver such an one unto satan . whence it follows very clearly , that without the apostles spirit , and the mighty power of christ , the corinthians were unable to deliver that incestuous to satan ; for else i see no reason why they should have the conjunction and assistance of these , [ the apostles spirit and christ's power ] for that end , since then there would be no need of it . and if they could not deliver the incestuous to satan without the assistance of the apostolical spirit , and the mighty power of christ , it also follows , that to deliver to satan , was not meerly to excommunicate , eject or suspend him , since this was so much in their own power , that they might have done it of themselves , without such extraordinary and miraculous aids . to be sure , this effect , whatever it was , if it bore ( as every effect must do ) proportion unto its cause , it must be something that was extraordinary ; for it came not only from the spirit of the apostle , but also from the miraculous power of christ , for such a power that is , which 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies , as is evident , acts 1. 8. 't is true , you infer from 1 cor. 5. 2. that the corinthians could not put away the incestuous without a new commission from the apostle , who was their bishop , and consequently you understand the power was given to them , only of a commission or authority . but on the contrary , the word used for power is ( as i have said before ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ) a word that commonly signifies strength , not authority . besides , if this putting away v. 2. must be understood ( as certainly it must ) of the same putting away with that v. 13. nothing can be plainer than that it was a censure the people could and ought to have made of themselves , without expecting any new commission ; as being in a matter that by the apostles own concession , they had a proper cognisance of , and over a person too , whose competent judges they were ; as the same apostle tells them , do not you judge them that are within , therefore put away , &c. putting away is grounded on the peoples judgment , but delivery unto satan upon the apostles . and yet however putting away may well be called an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or rebuke , and be a kind of punishment ; for to be excluded from the common society and conversation of the faithful , cannot deserve a milder expression . you still insist , that there is and ought to be a disparity of ministers , because there was a disparity between the 12 apostles and the 70 disciples , and with blondel think , that the 70 continued in the same office after the ascension of our lord , that they had before ; for you say , you cannot believe they withdrew their hands from the plow , or that our saviour deposed them from their office , or depressed them into the rank of private men. but tho' you do not believe ( as i know no need you should ) that the 70 withdrew their hands from the plow , or that our saviour deposed them from their office , or depressed them into the rank of private men , yet , if their office was only occasional , that is , if they were sent by our saviour to the house of israel , as messengers upon some particular occasions , and about a particular business ; then their office ceased of course at their return , like that of a prince's envoy , whose office ends with his business , that is , as soon as his message is done , and he returned with the account of it . i know of no jurisdiction the 12 apostles had over the 70 , but am sure , the office and work of the 70 ( whatever it was ) related but to the jews , as being a business only for that time , a time that was the crepusculum or twi-light between the law and gospel , judaism and christianity , while as yet the kingdom of heaven was only at hand , but not come , luke 10. 9. i add , that the office of the 70 is not reckoned in the number of the ascension gifts , eph. 4. 11. and , which is more , that the apostles themselves , had they not received another , a new commission after the re●urrection of christ , they , by their former old one ( which confirmed them unto iudaea , as that of the 70 also did them , and which was only for a preliminary work , matth. 10. 7. as that of the 70 also was , ) could not have had an authority to preach the gospel unto the gentiles , and so to lay the foundation of the catholick church and therefore the first commission as it was limited , so it was temporary , and expired ( at furthest ) when a second was given them , matth. 28 , 18 , 19. acts 1. 8. not but that the 70 as well as the 12 had business in the kingdom of heaven , or the evangelical state ; but they had it not under the denomination of the 70 , or in vertue of their first commission or mission , but only as they came to be officers in this kingdom , by being constituted evangelists , or prophets , or pastors and teachers , or deacons , &c. you offer again in confirmation of your notion of the apostleship of bishops , that timothy and titus , and the angels of the churches in the revelation were bishops , constituted by the apostles with the same authority themselves had ; and that the twelve apostles and paul were not all the apostles that the scripture speaks of , for barnabas and others were apostles too as well as they . ] i acknowledge barnabas to be an apostle , but i cannot acknowledge that he was an apostle of the same rank with the twelve , and paul ; for as paul himself distinguishes , gal. 1. 1. all apostles were not of the same rank , but some were in the first , some in the second order ; that is , some were apostles sent immediately by christ himself , and so were legates à latere , and some were sent , not immediately by christ himself , but by men. now paul insists , that himself was an apostle of the first order , and in the same rank with the twelve , gal. 1. 17. whereas it is plain , that barnabas and all the others who are called apostles , can pretend to be but of the second ; they being sent , not immediately by christ himself , as those of the first were , but only by man ; either by the apostles that were of the first order , as timothy and titus by paul , or by some church , as barnabas , acts 11. 22. for here the church is said to send forth barnabas as their apostle ; and not barely to dismiss him , as the word imports that is used , acts 13 3. apostles of the second order are called also evangelists , and it was their business to be assistant unto those of the first , if not always to their persons , yet , at least , to their work , which was to plant churches , by making of conversions , and setling orders : and of this sort of apostles i again acknowledge timothy and titus to have been . i proved in my former paper , that timothy and titus were evangilists ; but it seems , the argument i used loses all its force with you , because its strength , like that of the arch-work , lies in the combination and concurrence , and you consider it only in pieces ; not as a whole , and all its parts together and united , but only separately , and part by part . as for timothy , methinks we do too often find him with s. paul in his perambulations , to have any reason to conceive that he was resident bishop of ephesus ; and for titus , his diocess seems too large for any ordinary bishop . crete is famed to have had an hundred cities in old time , and pliny assures us , ( l. 4. c. 12. ) that in his there were forty , which were enough for so many bishopricks . titus had it in charge , tit. 1. 5. to ordain elders in every city , and to ordain elders in every city , was to settle a church in every city ; so that if every church must have a bishop ( as some are confident it must , ) then every city in crete that had a church , had also a bishop , and so possibly there were as many bishops and bishopricks in crete , as there were cities . this consideration , if well weighed , will much abate of the authority of the postscript of the epistle to titus , in which this evangelist is stiled the ordained bishop in the church of the cretians ; for according to the language of that time , had titus been indeed the bishop of that whole island , he ought to have been stiled bishop of the churches ( and not of the church ) of the cretians . but it seems it is taken for granted , that a bishop must have but one church , and therefore , that titus may be a bishop of the cretians , all the churches of crete must be consolitated into one ; else among all the churches in crete , i would fain know , which was the church of the cretians , where titus resided . if titus was bishop over all the churches in crete , he was a bishop of bishops , and at least a metropolitan , which indeed would be most in favour of the hierarchy , could it be evidenced . but this could not be the settlement that was made in crete . for it would be strange , that the apostle should appoint a hierarchy in crete , that should differ from the form of government setled upon the continent by himself and barnabas , who constituted elders in every church , without appointing ( that we read ) of any superiour bishop or metropolitan that should have a general care and inspection over the several churches . for my part , i could not see how titus should understand his commission , which was to ordain elders in every city , to carry any other intention with reference to crete , than the very same words do , when they are used to signifie what paul himself , who gave him this commission , had done upon the continent , where he and barnabas ordained elders in every church . and therefore as paul and barnabas established single congregations only , and organized them with elders , and then left them to govern themselves by their own intrinsick powers ; so in the like manner , titus established churches in every city , and organized them with elders , which having done , it is very probable that he returned again unto s. paul , to give an account of his commission . thus titus his business in crete , has the very idea and signature of that of an evangelist , or a secundary apostle , without the least mark of an ordinary bishop ; nor is there any hint in all the authentick scriptures , of his being ordained bishop of crete , or indeed of any place else . and the like must be said of timothy , with reference to ephesus , who was sent to the church there as a visitor only , with apostolical authority , and so as s. paul's delegate . nor it titus his ordaining of elders , a good argument for sole ordination ; for the word , tit. 1. 5. is the same that is used in acts 6. 3. in the matter of the deacons , who were appointed by the apostles ( not one of the apostles , but all ) and chosen by the people . and one might well admire that the same word which is translated [ appointed ] in one place , should be rendred [ ordained ] in another , but that titus is said to ordain , and not to appoint only , that it might look as if there were a plain text for sole ordination . but what if timothy and titus had a power of sole jurisdiction ? and a power too of making canons , for the government of the church ? ( which latter yet is an authority that every bishop will not pretend unto , after their example . ) the church then , was in a state of separation from secular government , and among heathen , just as the jews are now , among christians ; so that all it could do at that time , was to perswade ; it could not compel : and therefore it will not follow now that the church is protected , and not only protected by , but incorporated into , the state , that the officers of it must have the same powers , and exercise them in the same manner , as before , or ( as mr. selden expresses it ) that england must be governed as ephesus or crete . it is certain that kings would gain but little by the bargain , not to say , they must depart with their sovereignty to incorporate the christian religion , should this be admitted , that church-authority , church-power must be still the same after such incorporation , as before . for a separate national jurisdiction exercised by one or many , is a solecism in state , especially if it claim by the title of iure divino , a title that renders it independent upon , as well as unboundable and uncontroulable by all that is human . such a jurisdiction would weaken that of kings ; and other states . all their subjects would be but half subjects , and many none at all ; and it is no more nor less but that very same thing , that heretofore was found so inconvenient and burden some under the papacy , and that made the best and wisest , and greatest of our kings so uneasie . a clergy imbodied within it self , and independent on the state , is in a condition of being made a powerful faction upon any occasion , and easie to be practised upon , as being united under one , or a few heads , who can presently convey the malignity to all their subordinates , and these to the people . so that i lay it down as a maxim , that nothing can be of greater danger to any government than a national hierarchy , that does not depend upon it , or is not in the measures and interests of it . fresh experience has learned us this . i know not with what design it was said by padre paulo sarpio of venice , but his words are very remarkable , as i find them cited from an epistle of his to a counsellor of paris , in the year 1609. [ i am afraid ( says he ) in the behalf of the english , of that great power of bishops , though under a king. i have it in suspicion when they shall meet with a king of that goodness , as they will think it easie to work upon him , or shall have any archbishop of an high spirit , the royal authority shall be wounded , and bishops will aspire to an absolute domination . methinks i see a horse sadled in england , and i guess that the old rider will get on his back : but all these things depend on the divine providence . ] thus he , very prudently as to the main , though perhaps with some mistake as to his conjecture . for my part , i think it but reason that such persons as have the benefit of human laws , should in so much be guided by them ; and that the sword which owns no other edge but what the magistrate gives it , should not be used but by his direction ; as indeed the practice in england has always been . for as mr. selden observes , whatever bishops do otherwise than the law permits , westminster-hall can controul , or send them to absolve , &c. he also says very well , that nothing has lost the pope so much in his supremacy , as not acknowledging what princes gave him ; 't is a scorn ( says he ) on the civil power , and an unthankfulness in the priest. but , adds he , the church runs to iure divino , lest if these should acknowledge what they have by positive laws , it might be as well taken from them , as given to them . ] ay , this excellent person goes further , so much further as to tell us , that a bishop , as a bishop had never any ecclesiastical jurisdiction [ in england ] ; for as soon as he was electus confirmatus , that is , after the three proclamations in bow-church , he might exercise jurisdiction before he was consecrated , and yet till then [ that he was consecrated ] he was no bishop , neither could he give orders . besides , says he , suffragans were bishops , and they never claimed any jurisdiction . ] as for the angels in the revelation , i see no evidence in what is said ( tho' much is said ) to prove them to have been diocesans . it will not follow they were single persons , because they are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as who would say they are compared to stars , and not to constellations ; for the truth is , both these words are used promiscuously , as well for the constellations as for the single stars , so that no stress is to be laid upon the word that is used , for either side . besides , some are of the opinion , that to the making of it clear that these angels were only single persons , and for that cause compared but to single stars , and not to constellations , sufficient reason ought to be given why the holy ghost , who expresly limits the number of the churches , doth not in like manner limit the number of the angels belonging to them : for , say they , when the holy ghost said , the seven candlesticks are the seven churches , had he intended to signifie that the angels were but seven , as the churches were , he would in like manner have said , the seven stars are the seven angels of those seven churches . but as i am not satisfied that any great stress should be laid , in things of moment , upon such critical nicities , so , should i yield , without granting that these angels were stars or single persons , yet i should also think it but equal to demand , what reason there is to perswade , that these stars were other than the seven president presbyters , who were chair-men in the several presbyteries of those seven churches ? which churches i take to be single congregations . for i see as yet no reason , but that as a letter intended for the honourable house of commons , may be directed to the speaker , so these epistles intended for the seven churches ( for that they were , rev. 2. 7 , 11 , 17 , &c. ) might be superscribed [ for the chief pastor or president presbyter ] who probably at that time was stiled the bishop , by way of appropriation . in fine , what if by the name of angel , an angel properly so called should be understood ? and that the epistles intended for the churches [ pastors and people , ] were sent to them under the name of their guardian angels ? should this ●e so , then farewel to any ground for diocesan bishops in the directions of the epistles to the angels . and that it should be so is very agreeable to the prophetical spirit in the revelation : for the revelation goes much upon the hypothesis and language of daniel , and in daniel we read of the guardian angels of nations , and in such a manner , that what refers to the nations , or to their governours , is said of the angels themselves , dan. 10. 13 , 20 , 21. which is further confirmed , in that it seems to have been an hypothesis , obtaining in the first age of christianity , that the several churches or assemblies of christians had their guardian angels ; for it is very probable that in relation and aspect unto this hypothesis , the apostle paul does tell women , 1 cor. 11. 10. that they ought to have power over their heads , because of the angels ; the expression seems to imply , that there were angels , guardians of the assemblies ; who observed the demeanour of all , and therefore they ought to be circumspect , modest and decent in their behaviour and in their fashions and garbs , out of respect to those guardians . and indeed the former account of the title of angels , is a more agreeable and easie one than that which some others give , who by angel understanding a bishop in the modern sense of that word , believe the denomination given with reference to a practice among the jews , who ( they say , as from diodorus ) attributed to their high priest the title of angel. but should it be yielded that the jews had any such practice [ to attribute the title of angel to their high-priest ] what could this amount unto in our case , since every bishop is not an high priest , in the sense of the jews ? for in their sense there could be but one , and then , that one among christians must be a pope , or a sovereign bishop over all the bishops ; as , among the jews , the high priest was over all the priests . but in reality the jews had no such practice , nor does the alledged diodorus say they had , [ to call their high priest angel ] they called him high priest [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ] that was his name ; but indeed , he adds , that they had a belief of him , that he was ( often ) made a messenger or angel of god , [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ] as really he was , when he had the urim on him ; and this is all that diodorus affirms . your other argument ( for diocesan episcopacy , ) which you ground upon the traditional succession of bishops in several sees , down from the times of the apostles , and in the seats of the apostles , has no more of cogency in it than the former . i know tertullian l. de praescript . adv . hae etieos , says , precurre ecclesias apostolicas apud quas ips● adhus cathedrae apostolorum suis locis praesidentur , &c. and i acknowledg , the apostles may well enough be said to have sate in chairs , and others to succeed in them , if the chairs be understood of chairs of doctrin , in the same sense in which the scribes and pharisees are said to sit in moses's ; for in this sense , all those churches were apostolical , and had apostolical succession , which being founded upon the doctrin of the apostles , had such perso●s only in any authority over them , as did continue therein . but else , i cannot believe my self obliged to assent that the apostles had chairs in particular churches , tho' tertullian's words at first sight may seem to sound that way , than to believe the story of the cells of the 70 translators ; a story that s. hierom not only confutes but ridicules , tho' it has this to be said for it , that iustin martyr affirms he saw the ruins of those very cells , and that they were in the pharos of alexandri , tertullian flourished but in the beginning of the third century , by which time many fob traditions past current ; of which truth too many instances are obvious in the writings of that father , as well as of other fathers . indeed eusebius has given us catalogues of the succession of bishops in several churches , but these catalogues are only conjectural and traditionary . himself , in the proem of his ecclesiastical history , tells us of a great chasm that was in that kind of history for the three first centuries , and that being alone and solitary in this kind of performance , he had nothing but fragments here and there to help him , from any of those who preceeded ( him . ) ay , in the third book of that history , chap. 4. he says expresly , as to the persons that succeeded the apostles in the government of the churches , that it is hard to tell particularly and by name , who they were [ quorum nomina non est facile explicare per singulos . ] and that in making his catalogues he went by way of collection and inference , from what is written by s. paul ; [ ex apostoli tamen pauli sermonibus colligere possumus , &c. ] so that the catalogues of bishops deduced from the apostles , for ought i see , deserve but little more of credit , as being but little better ascertained than the catalogue of the british kings , deduced from brute . in truth , the task is a little uneasie to make it clear , that the apostles were properly bishops , in the modern sense of the word , and that they had fixed seats , which yet is the basis upon which such catalogues must stand ; sure i am , athanasius in his comment upon the epistle to the romans , ad c. 2. v. 1. affirms their office to have been to go up and down and preach , circumvagari ( as his translator renders him ) & evangelium praedicare ; so that in the judgment of this so celebrated a father , the apostles ( as such ) were but itinerant preachers , a sort of officers that were unfixed . as for epaphroditus , i cannot be peswaded by the bare authority of s. hierom ( whom yet i take for a very learned as well as pious father , ) much less by that of walo messalinus , to believe against the analogy of the text , that he was bishop of the philippians , only because he is called by s. paul their apostle , phil. 2. 25. the observation walo has made of the word [ apostle , ] that it is never used by the evangelists , by s. paul in any other place , or by the other apostles , but only de sancto ministerio , will hold no water ; for i take it that iohn 13 16. in which place the word is used in a common promiscuous sense , and rendred so by our translators , stands impregnable , as a plain , direct and unavoidable instance against him . irenaeus is also cited , to prove that such a superiority as the apostles themselves had in the church , was transmitted by them unto bishops ; for , say you , this father , who distinguishes between the bishops and presbyters , affirms , that the apostles delivered to the bishops , suum ipsorum locum magisterii , their own place of magisteriality or government . irenaeus flourished towards the end of the 2d century , and yet so near as he was to the apostles own times , if he affirmed , as he is ageed by the most ( tho' not by all ) to have done , that our lord christ did undergo his passion in the fiftieth year of his age , we shall have little reason to be fond of his authority , in matters which he takes upon trust , and by meer report . but admitting irenaeus's authority ( which i am unwilling to lessen ) to be as unblemished and as tight as one could wish it , yet on this occasion it will do you but small service ; for the force of the testimony which you cite from him , depends on the word magisterium ; and magisterium signifies not , as you understand it , [ a masterly authority ] but [ teaching and doctrin ; ] for in this latter sense the word is often used by other fathers , and particularly by s. cyprian , as you may see l. 1. ep . 3. and in other places ; but this is a sense that maketh nothing for you , for then irenaeus means no other than what tertullian also affirms , and none will deny , that the apostles delivered over to the bishops their own chairs of doctrin ; so that succeeding bishops or pastors were obliged to deliver no other doctrin unto their flocks , but that same which themselves had first received from those that were the founders of christianity . in fine , as to what you mention ( but somewhat invidiously ) concerning the judgment of the assembly of divines , the gangrene of mr. edwards , and the overflow that was of sects and heresies in the late times ( of the interreign ) which you would insinuate to be occasioned by the intermission of episcopacy . i answer , that there were sects and heresies even in the times of the apostles , and that irenaeus , s. ausrin , philastrius and epiphanius have furnished the christian world with large catalogues of them , and of some in their own times ; and yet i doubt not you will acknowledge , there were bishops in the church , even in those times ; so that episcopacy , if it be not coercive , is no such remedy against sects and heresies , as you would have us believe ; and if it be coercive , it is not purely christian and spiritual , but , in so much , has something in it of secular and worldly . thus i have reinforced my main argument , and removed such exceptions as you take against it ; and now i shall not make your trouble much longer , but to elucidate some incident and by passages , which i will do with all the brevity i can , and without formality of method , only as they come to my mind peter is first named where ever the whole colledge of the apostles is called over ; but i do not in●er , nor does it enforce , that any primacy was due unto him , other than that of precedence , which all protestants ( generally speaking ) allow him . it doth not appear that iames at the council of hierusalem , spake with more authority than the other apostles , as bishop of the place and president of the synod . iesephus indeed takes notice of him under an eminent character , for piety ; but not a word in that author of his eminent dignity , as a prelate . as for paul , he calls him but plain iames , not bishop iames ; and though he put him before peter and iohn , gal. 2. 9. that preference might be only in respect of his being the lord's brother , gal. 1. 19. and consequently is no great argument of his prelacy , in the modern sense of that word . so zomen's censure of the practice of having more bishops than one in one city , does prove that practice ; though he did not approve it ▪ epiphanius also is cited by many to evidence that practice . i yield not that 1 cor. 14. 34. which may be translated [ in the assemblies , ] will demonstrate , that there were , at that time , several separate meetings for christian offices in one city or town , where was but one church ; and yet i grant it might happen to be so , upon occasion ; for our experience evinces it has been so of late , in a time of persecution , among the dissenting churches , and what has been in our time , might on like occasions have been before it . however , this accident would not prove , nor indeed do i find any other proof , that there were in the first times of christianity , pastors who had the care of several churches ; or , that any church at that time did take in several cities or towns , which were remote ; a church properly being a coagregation , and consequently the people of a vicinage or neighbourhood , under orders . cenchrea , though one of the ports of corinth , had a church of its own , distant from that at corinth ; and none , i think , will say , that that church was diocesan . the council of chalcedon prohibited absolute ordinations . that the end of the world , matth. 28. 20. is literally to be understood of the end of the jewish policy , or the mosaical seculum , seems evident , by comparing that text with the 24. chapter of the same evangelist , ver ▪ 2 , 14 , and 24. the meaning of mat. 1. 29. is , that ioseph did not know his wife till she had brought forth her first-born , and that it will not follow , that he knew her afterward ; and in this sense of [ until ] i make it parallel with mat. 28. 20. so that when christ says , he would be with his apostles , until the end of the jewish world , he is plain , he would be with them so long , but doth not imply by that [ until ] that he would be with them no longer . without the favour that we commonly allow to popular expressions , what is said , mat. 28. 20. will not hold in the usual sense that is given it , as to the apostles successors , and with that favour , i see no strength in any arguments against mine , which carries it , in the letter unto the apostles . if the apostles must not be understood to stand personally , and only for themselves in that commission , mat. 28. they must be understood to stand in it representatively , for the whole church , or body of christian people , in that same manner as they stood for them in the istitution of the lord's supper , when it was said to them [ do this in remembrance of me . ] these words being said to them , not as they were ministers , but as communicants , take ye , eat ye , take , drink , do this in remembrance of me ; for else there is no canon of communion for the common people , or laity . now i pray tell me , which of these notions did the apostles stand in when they received that commission , mat. 28. was it given to them as they stood personally , for so many single men , or as they represented the whole community and body of christians ? in one of these two , they must necessarily stand ; for the apostles collectively and all together , as a body are never taken but in one or the other sense ; they no where representing only the ministers or pastors ; so that , by the letter of the commission , which is directed to the body of the apostles , either all christians are impowered to baptize and preach , which i suppose you will not say , or else only the apostles . i acknowledge that cyprian , though he calls the presbyters his compresbyters , yet never calls them his colleagues ; he does not call them fellow bishops , tho he calls them fellow presbyters because tho every bishop was a presbyter , yet every presbyter was not a bishop , in the appropriate sense of that word . however , tho he does not say of presbyters in so many words , that they are the colleagues of a bishop , yet he comes very near it , when he tells them they are compresidents with him , which he does l. 1. ep. 3. when writing to cornelius that was a bishop , he has this expression [ florentissim● clerotecvm praesidenti ] . to the most flourishing clergy that presides together with thee . and in truth , one must have read but little in s cyprian , to be ignorant that in his time the presbyters or clergy were joyned with the bishop in acts of jurisdiction ; and that not only the clergy , but even the people too , had a great share therein , as well as the bishops . and this , as in other matters , so even in those that related unto bishops themselves . no 〈◊〉 than all this is implyed in that expostulation of cyprian● : an ad hoc frater carissime deponenda ecclesiae catholicae dignitas , & plebs int●s positae fidelis atque in corrupta maiestas , & sacerdotalis queque avthoritas , ac potestas , iudicare vell● se dicant de ecclesiae praeposito ex●●● ecclesiam constituti ? what most dear brother , is the dignity of ( a ) ( or the ) catholick church , the faithful and uncorrupt majesty of the people that is in it , and also auhority and power of the priesthood to be brought to this , that such must talk of judging concerning a bishop of the church , who themselves are out of the church ? to conclude : that alterations have been often made in the church , both as to government and discipline , is so great and plain a truth , that none that knows the history can doubt of it some of these came in early , by several steps , and others afterwards upon occasions that could not be foreseen . some things in the church are fundamental , and of an immutable nature . but there are 〈◊〉 that relate to government , discipline and administration , which depending upon the variable circumstances of times , places , and occasions , are , and must be , left to christian prudence . the grounds i go upon in my scheme , in which i have set out the principal alterations that have been made , are owned by the church of england , as to one instance , ( and the reason of that one will hold in more . ) when in its canons and constitutions , agreed an. dom. 1640. can. 1. it says , the power to call and dissolve councils both national and provincial , is the true right of all christian kings , within their own realms , and teritories ; and when in the first times of christ's church prelates used this power ; 't was therefore only , because in those days they had no christian kings ] but it is time to end your trouble , and therefore i will add no more but to own my self , june 8th . 1690. sir , your humble servant . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a30632-e220 basil in rom. in plat. 32. & alibi . ignat. in epist. ad smyrn . & alibi . clem. epist. ad corinth . clem. ep. ad corinth . cipryan ep. l. 3. ep. 9. clem , ●bi supra . hierom. com. in ep. 1. ad cor. lips. tract . de magist. vet. pop. rom. c. 2. clem. epist. ad . corinth . dan. com. in august . de haeres . c. 53. spotiswood hist. b. 1. f. 4. dan. com●men ; ad august . de aeres . gr●● . epist. 154. ad gall. notes for div a30632-e2590 cyp. ep. l. 1. ep . 4. vid. & ep . l. 1. ep . ep . 3. 9. l. 4. ep . 2. cypr. epist. l. 3. ep. 10. cypr. ep. l. 1. ep. 4. bact . lex c. rab. advoc . 〈◊〉 mark 5. 22. acts 13. 15. nil . l. de papa primatu . riensid's conf. with har● . f. 230 , 231. vid. bu●t . lexis . rab. ad voc . nidui . selden de jur . uat . & gent. l. 4. ● . 9. theod. motech 〈◊〉 r m. p. 61. lud. molin . in paraen . c. 13. vid. cypria . ep . l. 3. ep . 11. loz . com . reip . rom. l. 1. f. 141 , &c. ios. scal. ep . l. 4. ep . 345. barlaem de papae princip . c. 5. see dr. burnel's abridgment of the hist. of the reformation b. l. f. 107. and his hist. of the rights of princes spain gl●ssat . ad v. c. bomag . vid. albert. cra●zia . metrop . l. 1. c. 25 , & 30. l. 2. c. 2 , 19. & 21. 1. 3. c. 1 , 5 &c. 〈◊〉 schel . bist . 〈◊〉 l. 1. ● . 20. vid. buat . lexie . rab. ad voc . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 2 chron. 19. 8 , &c. socrat. in proem l. 5. hist. ecel . nath. bacon , histor. disccurs . part. 1. ● . 1. see dugdale's antiquities of warwickshire in the preface . notes for div a30632-e8950 vb. em● . in descr . reip . athen. plut. in vit . p●oc . vindiciæ catholicæ, or, the rights of particular churches rescued and asserted against that meer (but dangerous) notion of one catholick, visible, governing church ... wherein by scripture, reason, antiquity, and later writers, first, the novelty, peril, scandal, and untruth of this tenet are cleerly demonstrated, secondly, all the arguments for it, produced by the rev. apollonius, m. hudson, m. noyes, the london ministers, and others, are examined and dissolved ... / by john ellis, jun. ellis, john, 1606?-1681. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a39282 of text r18753 in the english short title catalog (wing e593). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 247 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 47 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a39282 wing e593 estc r18753 12283474 ocm 12283474 58801 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a39282) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 58801) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 183:4) vindiciæ catholicæ, or, the rights of particular churches rescued and asserted against that meer (but dangerous) notion of one catholick, visible, governing church ... wherein by scripture, reason, antiquity, and later writers, first, the novelty, peril, scandal, and untruth of this tenet are cleerly demonstrated, secondly, all the arguments for it, produced by the rev. apollonius, m. hudson, m. noyes, the london ministers, and others, are examined and dissolved ... / by john ellis, jun. ellis, john, 1606?-1681. [8], 85 p. printed for henry overton, and are to be sold at his shop ..., london : 1647. pages 81 and 84 misnumbered 73 and 76. reproduction of original in thomason collection, british library. eng hudson, samuel, 17th cent -theology. apollonius, willem, 1602 or 3-1657 -theology. noyes, james, 1608-1656 -religion. church polity -early works to 1800. a39282 r18753 (wing e593). civilwar no vindiciæ catholicæ, or the rights of particular churches rescued: and asserted against that meer (but dangerous) notion of one catholick, vi ellis, john 1647 43052 135 95 0 0 0 0 53 d the rate of 53 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the d category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2006-10 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2006-10 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-06 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2007-06 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion vindiciae catholicae , or the rights of particular churches rescued : and asserted against that meer ( but dangerous ) notion of one catholick , visible , governing chvrch : the foundation of the ( now endeavoured ) presbyterie . wherein by scripture , reason , antiquity , and later writers first , the novelty , peril , scandal , and untruth of this tenet , are cleerly demonstrated . secondly , all the arguments for it , produced by the rev. apollonius , m. hudson , m. noyes , the london ministers , and others : are examined and dissolved . to the parliament of england , and assembly of divines . by john ellis jun. gal. 5. 1. stand fast in the liberty wherewith christ hath made you free . si primat●m aliqu●m unius ●●●is agnesceret : nonne i● medium afferre debuit , unum caput ministeriale membris omnibus praefectum , cujus auspicijs in unitatem colligamur ? certe aut pauli oblivic excusari nequit , qui imprudenter , quod maxime appositum erat , adeoque praecipuum in causa pratermiserit : aut satendum est , rem esse a christi institutione alienam : imo aperte fictitiam . calv. in ephes. 4. 11 : london , printed for henry overton , and are to be sold at his shop in popes-head-alley . mdcxlvii . to the high court of parliament of england . to the assembly of divines . to the christian magistrates , and reformed churches abroad . honourable and reverend , all that shall be prefaced unto you , is an humble sute for your prudent consideration of the sequele . for if i have rightly collected ; the opinion contended with , represents you all guilty of schisme against the catholicke church ; yea and of a higher crime , so many of you as have with hands lift up to heaven ( of which number my selfe am one ) ingaged your selves in materiall points of reformation ; not onely without the authority or endeavouring to have the minde of the catholicke church ; but have also concluded and established contrary to what it hath determined in all those assemblies which our brethren stile the representatives of it . from which transgression the truth here pleaded doth in that respect absolve you : in the comfort whereof , i would here also leave you . but seeing there are those , who would not onely have the opposed tenet embraced for a fundamental truth in church government , and propound it as a ground thereof ; but that it should also be constituted and established an article of faith and confession thereof ; i crave leave to adde a supplication , and with all submission , doe beseech you , that the expedient of a great man about these affaires , in his advice for the restoring of peace in the church may be diligently weighed : the summe ( saith he ) of our religion is peace and unanimitie ; of which there is little hope , unlesse those things that shall be injoyned as matters of faith , bee as few as may bee ; and that wee leave mens judgements free in many things ; by reason that the obscurity in a number of them is exceeding great , &c. how much lesse then such opinions , as are not onely new ( in the sence now propounded ) and controverted , but moreover appugned constantly also , by the most eminent of our owne party , ( and is as inconsistent with your liberties , as episcopacy , which you have condemned . ) withall i presume you will not disdaine the wisedome and practise of the most ancient churches after the apostles times : we see all their confession of faith in that briefe called the apostles creed , and afterward the nicene creed ; made by the first generall councell , and for the explication of the former ; in how few words is it comprehended , yea and the confessions of the reformed churches , and our owne 39. articles are but briefe and for the most part cleere . austin saies the rule of faith is common to the weak and to the wise . which vsshers in the explication of one , almost as great , upon it : inferring , that ( therefore ) the rule of faith must containe such truthes onely , as are generally agreed upon , by the consent of all true christians , and without controversie . many things should not be rendered of the substance of faith ; for the denyall of which the crime of heresy and schisme , and for the doubt whereof , the penalty of rejection from the family , and worke of the lord must be inflicted . the great apostle every where exhorts , with all those who hold in the maine the forme of sound words , and yet are in other things diversly minded ; to preserve the vnitie of the spirit in the bond of peace . the lord restore the churches to their just freedomes and keepe them from using their liberty as an occasion to the flesh , but by love to serve one another : and the same god raise and uphold the spirit of all states and magistrates to be nu●sing fathers to them : and continue to returne this your work of faith , and labour of love , seven fold into your bosome . so prayes an unworthy minister of christ , son of the church , and servant of this state . john ellis . jun. to the pious and ingenuous reader . touching my call to this undertaking i shall give account in the following tractate : but the occasion of my falling on it , was my defence against mr edwards , or rather the authour of the letters , which hee hath published in the first part of his sanious gangrena , where i being charged to have said in publique : that popery would come in again under presbytery as well as under episcopacy , if the magistrate did not intervene . i distinguished of popery doctrinall and rective , or in point of government ; which latter i shewed was very probable ( for the substance , though not the formalitie of it ) to follow upon the presbyterie on the ground that it is now endeavoured , viz. a catholique visible governing church , whereunto when i had written ; it seemed convenient to publish that argument alone ; and because one of the authours of this opinion had invited mee to deal in the point ; i was obliged to reply to him : but seeing others also had written on the subject , it had beene an imperfect opposition if i had not taken in the rest also : for i knew no prohibition from replying to any : neither are the hands of any tyed from answering unto me ( if they shall see cause ) at least mediately . and let no man be offended that so ordinary an instrument as my self deales with so many , and so considerable persons . the contest of one paphnutius , and he a lay person , with the whole ( first and best ) councell of nice is vulgar . as also that of the canon law : one laique if he speak scripture , his testimony is to be prefered before the decrees of a councell . what ever distances there may be in other respects , as years , learning , name , pietie , &c. yet in point of truth hee is on the highest ground , that hath the advantage of that ; as the example of the young man elihu , in job , instructeth us . now this i first publish rather then the former answer , ( delayed not for want of innocency , but of opportunity , somewhat else impedeing also ) as men assayled by an adversary , and a breach of sea at once ; first stop the inundation that will drowne all , though the enemie in the mean time prevail the more . the contents . 1. the occasion , and first authors of the opinion of one catholick visible governing church . together with the intent and scope of this treatise : as also the authors call to this service . chap. 1. page 1. 2. the state of the question . chap. 2. page 4. 3. the just prejudices and strong probabilities against the former notion . chap. 3. page 10. 4. demonstrations against it from the efficient cause of church government , from the material , from the formal and final . chap. 4. page 19. 5. answers to the arguments produced for it , chap. 5. 1. by apollonius , page 33. 2. by m. hudson , page 51. 3. the reverend assembly , page 60. 4. m. noyes , page 70. 5. the london ministers , page 78. 6. the conclusion , chap. 6. page 83. 1. illatory , or by way of corrollary . 2. hortatory to the brethren of this opinion . to the reader . whereas i have reckoned ( chap. 1. ) mr randal [ in his treatise of the church ] among mine adversaries , in the argument i handle : upon better search i finde him not to be so ; but to hold the catholicke church , as others did , and my selfe doe , as by a marginall quotation i have made appear . chap. i. the occasion and first authors of the question : together with the intent and scope of this treatise . as also the authors call unto this service . sect. i. god having put it into the heart and hand of the parliament of england , to set upon reformation of the church as well as of the common-wealth : they for that end conveened an assembly of such learned and godly men as they adjudged meet for their direction in that work ; and those of known different judgements , ( episcopal , presbyterial , and congregational , ) that they might by their opposition , the better discern what way of church government and reformation they should countenance and strengthen with their authority . now the episcopal way ●aving rendered it self odious by its imperiousnesse and otherwise , the contest remained betwixt the other two : whereof the presbyterian , being practised ( in some things ) in certain reformed states and churches ( who were partly constrained thereunto ) there being some hints of scripture also that might be apprehended to look that way , some other things withal concurring : got place , either in the interests or affections , of a great part of the assembly , parliament , city , and ministers in the country . hereby also they were eyed the more by the churches abroad that were of that way , and had the opportunity to improve their endeavours for their assistance . the congregational way in the mean time , though it wanted not assertors very learned and godly , and of great name in the church , and had the advantage of an amiable pattern of it in the new-english plantations ; and withall , the daily accesse and addition of the most knowing and conscencious sort of professors : yet by reason of the former disadvantages , it was not rendered so considerable among the churches abroad , as to depart from received principles , or neglect to appear in the defence of the former , for consideration of it . hereupon the walachrian classis in holland ( among others ) being sollicited by the presbyterian partie here for their assistance : they appoint g. apollonius , pastor of the church at middelburgh , to take on him this province , and having according to his principles acquitted himself of that service ; in a tractate intituled [ a consideration of certain controversies which concern the government of the church of god , agitated in england ] the approbate of the classis is added to the book , and published 1644. both in latin and english . this author observing as it seems , that the assault on the way of the presbyterian government was like to be strong ; and fearing that the former basis and foundations of it , [ viz. that the government of the church was to be by the elders , and they in equal povver . 2. that it is alvvaies convenient ( if attainable ) and sometimes necessarie , that churches be associated and act in combination vvith joynt consent . 3. that as princes and states have an independent povver within their owne limits , so churches under the government of one prince or state , have no absolute or necessary dependance on other churches in point of ecclesiastick power and government , &c. ] these grounds as was said , being doubted whether defensible : the author in the third chapter of his discourse which treates [ of the visible instituted church ] betakes himself to a larger medium , and of all men ( that i know ) of the presbyterian , and almost of the protestant judgement , he first layes down this conclusion : that there is a certain universal outward church , dispersed through the whole world , described in the scriptures , which in a certain visible government doth make one onely corporation , ministerial church-body , or political society : under which all particular churches , classical , provincial , and national ( as it were parts of the vvhole ) are conteyned . apollonius is followed herein by m. hudson in his book written on this subject [ intituled the essence and vnitie of the church catholick visible : ] also by the reverend assembly of divines , ( as we shall see afterward ) again by m. noyes a minister of new-england , in his book [ intituled the temple measured ] and lastly by certain london ministers in their tract [ of the divine right of the presbyterian government ] by which it seems the notion is so amiable , that there is as it were a kind of ambition who should appear first , in being the authors or owners of it : though the truth is , this conceit ( for substance ) hath been before all these the tenet of some others , whom it is not any great honour to be followers of in this : as first the papists generally : also a few episcopal men : as crakanthorpe , m. randall , and perhaps some others . and it may be by some absolute royalists ( for that spirit must needs work in church affairs to some such opinion ) i remember one of them being in conference about church-government , acknowledged indeed the church of rome to have abused its power that way : but conceived that it was necessary for the catholick church to have some one standing court and place of residence , whereunto to have recourse on all occasions , and which might have authority over , and influence upon the vvhole : to this effect was his discourse : which opinion cannot be avoyded , if the notion of one catholick visible church be granted , as shall appear hereafter . now the scope of this treatrse is not to unfasten the ground of all church combinations , and to lay a foundation for absolute independencie . the conveniencie and somtime the necessity of classes and synods for direction and determination ( and that by divine authority ) is freely acknowledged ( though not with power properly juridical ) yea , i add , that episcopacie it self was and might be maintained , as also presbyterie , ( if confined to a particular church , and not subjected to superior ecclesiastical power , which was the most ancient way of it ) without the notion of one visible catholick church ; and might both consist together in a particular one . so that as neither episcopacie nor presbyterie ( absolutely considered ) are engaged to owne the opposed tenet ; so neither doth that truth i plead for , constrain me to oppose either , if within the forementioned limits . my aim is the plucking up of that root from whence sprang the exorbitancy of both , and what was worse then either . and as i am not obliged to oppose , so i would not be interpreted to plead for the one or other . my businesse is to deal with the subject of church government , and that onely in its exrent and limits . now for a call to this service , though it challenge the most exercised abilities , and that other more able hands have undertaken it ( which i heard not of , till these papers were almost in the presse ) yet one of the * authors i reply unto , having done me the favour to invite me to a disputation about the argument , and afterward farther obliging me , by sending one of the printed books to me ( for which i am his debtor ) with desire , that if i excepted against any thing in it , i ●ould send my thoughts in w●iting to him privately : i conceived my self particula●ly engaged to deal in this argument , and that not privately , but publickly , because what i was to speak to , was published first . chap. ii. the state of the question . that we may know what we speake , and vvhereof vve affirme , ( as the apostle phraseth it ) the true state of the controversie is to be expounded , the mistake whereof is the rise of much of the dispute about this question . for the clearer proceeding wherein , four or five termes are to bee explained : first the word chvrch , secondly , the onenesse , or unitie of it , thirdly , the vniversalitie , fourthly , the visibility , fifthly , ( that which is included in the other ) the povver of it . concerning the first , the word chvrch , is taken ( as in other acceptations so ) 1. mystically and essentially , for a company of tho●e that have owned the doctrine * of christ . 2. politically , as such a company are cast into one society , corporation , republique or body politique . and this againe is considered either totally , as comprehending those in heaven also , ephes. 3. 15. the vvhole family in heaven and earth : or partially , for those on earth onely : and this , either generally for all , as some would understand the word , ( though we cannot give an instance of this signification in scripture ) or particularly ; for those who live together in one place , and are associated into one body , called a particular church , as the church of rome , jerusalem &c. the next terme is onenesse , or vnitie , which is 1. essentiall and in nature , such as is that of all particular things in their generall heads : all men as they partake of the common nature and essence of man , ( rationalitie , which is one ) are in that respect called one nation or man●inde , in the singular . 2. there in an accidentall unitie when the agreement is in that which is not of the essence and nature , but adventitious to the things , as time , place , appurtunances , &c. as some spanjards , some french , some english may be one company , as by occasion they are met in one place , or as kingdomes and states at generall diets , or by mutuall leagues become one accidentally , by such unions . 3. an integrall or bodily onenesse ( as i may so speake ) when many particulars are joyned together , as one whole , and this is , 1. of a similer or homogeneall body , whereof all the parts are of the same nature with the whole and one with another , such as is the onenesse of drops of water in the sea , and sands on the shore , or ● . of a dissimilar and hetrogeneall one ; when the parts differ from the whole and among themselves , and this is double , 1. physicall and naturall , as ●hen all the parts and members make but one individuall substance , as the head , feet , trunke &c. are all one naturall body . 2. politicall or by way of morall corporation , and republique , when many single ones are bound up in one sociall relation , as divers persons into one family , severall families into one corporation , many corporations into one common wealth : and this union againe is twofold , 1. misticall , when things are one in some hidden relation , that is not visible to the sence , as all families descending from some first house , such are all the sonnes of adam and of abraham , all professours of the same faculty , be they never so farre asunder . 2. visible and outward , when the union of all parts is obvious and evident to the eye and sence , as the union of the members in the bodie of man , or members of a society when they are met , and act visibly together ; as the city of london in common councell , the kingdome of england in parliament . 4. there is a collective or aggregative onenesse , which differs from the former , in that this is only by collection , or gathering as an heap of stones is one by being gathered together into one place : but in a body , whether naturall or politique , there is required moreover a mutuall incorporation and inward dependance on one another , &c. thus of the second terme . the third is vniversall or catholick ; it is taken 1. properly , for that common nature in which particular things agree , as common to them all . rationall creature , in the general , is the universall nature in respect of all particular men . and in this sence , universality is only a notion framed in the minde of man , and collected from observation of severall particulars , but hath no reall actuall being in time and place . 2. improperly , for that which though it be a single thing , ( either naturall or by way of relation ) is yet in regard of the wide spreading of its parts , called universall catholicke and generall : as we say the kingdome of england in generall or universall doth this or that , though it be but one single kingdome , &c. and in this sence that which is called universall may have an actual being and existence . the fourth terme is visibilitie : it is an accident or addition to the nature of things , as they are perceiveable to the eye , or ( in a large acceptation ) by any other sence ; the subject whereof is alwaies a corporal or bodily thing , representing it selfe as one unto the sence . the last terme ( included , though not expressed ) is church power ; it is first doctrinall ; vix . teaching discussive , determinative and concluding ( in points of controversie ) by the word . 2. active : and this is either general and common : and answers to that power that all men by vertue of the onenesse of nature , and onenesse of the law of nature , have in order each to other . as 1. to take care of , and do good to one another : to protect each other from violence , &c. 2. properly rective and iuridical : and this is either 1. extraordinary , in some unusuall cases : as every man hath power of life and death , in case of his owne ( otherwise unavoidable ) peril of life . or 2. ordinary : which is that which it is actually and constantly endued with , and which it is daily to exercise as occasion serves . and this againe is 1. imperative , or by way of command , and imposition of truthes , or duties in the name of christ . 2. coercive , and executive by censure : by admonition and excommunication , or cutting off from the body of christ . and thus far of the explication of the termes , now we come to the stating of the question . and 1. negatively , what is not the question . the doubt then is not 1. whether there be a company of persons in several , or in all parts of the world , that diuisim and in their several places do visibly , outwardly , and openly professe ( for substance ) the same faith , seals , worship and government , and so may be said to be one company , one society , one congregation in nature and essence ( i. e. acknowledgement of the same faith ) as we say the turke or turkes are one company of men , because their profession of religion is one : though those of constantinople and of persia have no dependance one on another , either civil or religious in point of government . nor 2. is it the quaere whether the several companies or churches of this profession as they are one in nature , so also in spirit and affection , and thereupon in the engagement of mutual care one of another , and to take notice what doctines are dispersed , what conversation used among the churches . brethren of the same first family are bound to do this , though they be every one master in his owne house . nor 3. is it doubtful whether such churches may voluntarily as occasion shall require , associate together for mutual assistance , and act ( in many things ) by common and joynt consent , as it was at the first in the church of geneva . this the scripture and the light of nature dictates , even then when the same scripture and light of nature reserves entire and distinct liberties to the particulars , as in the present conjunction of england and scotland : and so in the conjunction of the apostles and churches at jerusalem , acts 15. nothing was done there of particular jurisdiction , as the decreeing of excommunication , or the like , to those that should be refractory : this was left to the particular churches . now to these two latter , and not to the point of government properly so called , belongs those testimonies out of the ancients , alledged by crakanthorp ( to prove that all the bishops joyntly and severally are set over the whole church in common , and not the pope onely ) : for these testimonies expresse onely a generall obligation of duty and charity : not of special office . 4. neither is it the scruple whether all or most of the churches in the world may not possibly become occasionally one by their messengers in a general councel : though such a thing never yet was , nor perhaps ought to be , of which hereafter . thus of the first four termes : in regard of the last , viz. the power of the church ; the question is not 1. whether an association of churches lesse or more , and especially a general counsel have not a power more then barely consultative , or by way of meer counsel and advice : and whether they have not , so far as the object of their commission reacheth , an authoritative power , ( at least virtual ) from christ to act . in all facul●ies there is a certain power given both by god and man to the allowed professors of them , to give authoritative , not advice only , but directions and rules , to which the conscience is bound to submit , unlesse special cause disswade us : and this authority is the more august and solemn , though not greater , ( or more or lesse vary not the kind ) the greater the number is , and the more publicke the manner of giving forth the precepts shall bee . as for instance : an allowed lawyer or physician , have not onely ability to give advice in point of estate or health , by vertue , of their skill , ( which others possibly may doe materially as well ) but have authoritie and legall power from god and man , to appoint , direct , determine and prescribe rules and waies to be observed in both ; to which the person ought to be obedient that seeks advice : and this the more ; if it shall be done by an assembly of lawyers or judges , or colledge of physitians by publick consent convened for that purpose : though neither the one , nor other have power to compell the clyent or patient to follow their directions , nor obtain they any new and superiour power by being gathered ; so in the affaires of the church of god . in doubtfull cases ; or upon occasion of grosser errours and scandalls : god hath by or dinance ( virtual ) appointed recourse to others , especially churches , whose prescriptions , not disagreeing from the word , are to be obeyed , not only because they are materially good , but formally theirs : that is , the determinations of many of those , who are appointed by god for such offices in their severall places , so that their acting is the acting of officers , but not as officers , ( for such they are only in their severall churches ) but yet by reason of 〈◊〉 relation , they are the more fit for that work , but do not act in another and superiour right and relation when assembled , and therefore have not any power coercive more then before to constraine by church-sure , excommunication &c. to their decrees . neither do we find that the apostles themselves , when holding such a councel ( in our brethrens opinion ) did more , then ( in the name of the holy ghost ) decree , and command ; but did not impose any such penalty by authority of the councel , upon the disobedient in the particular churches . 2. neither is the question properly , what power the catholick church may possibly have in unusual and extraordinary case or accident , and which in ordinary it cannot do , nor is the proper subject of such power , as we saw before in the instance of necessary self defence . 3. yea further ( ad hominem ) in respect of the practise and condition of most of those bretheren who plead this catholick visible onenesse of the church : the question would not be what power the vniversal visible church might have ( if possibly convenable ) together ; as it was at jerusalem ( in which case we grant what is contended for ) as what the parts of it have asunder , and without endeavouring the joyning with the other . for even in a kingdom , though all the corporations gathered in one , have power over all particulars : yet not some of these , much lesse a few of them asunder ; which is the way our bretheren now practise . none of these is the point in controversie . but secondly , it is positively this , viz. whether the whole company of christians on earth , are in their ordinary and setled church constitution , so one entire single common-wealth , corporation and congregation , as that of right , and by the will and appointment of iesus christ , it is the first subject of all church power : by authority whereof , and commission from which all particular churches act , and to the determinations of the major part whereof , they are to yeeld obedience ( if not apparently contrary to the word ) and the catholick governing power whereof , resides immediately as in its proper subject under christ , onely in the ministers and elders ; and they not taken severally , but joyntly as one entire colledge or presbyterie : to whose charge severally and joyntly , the whole and every particular church is committed &c , or more briefly : whether the whole be one corporation , whereof the elders joyntly are governors ; and the members gouerned . chap. iii. just prejudices , and strong probabilities against an universal visible governing church . it is the custome of warre to skirmish first , and to begin with the lighter armed souldiers : this method shall be here followed : and first such things as render this opinion vehemently suspicious and questionable . whereof the first is ; the novelty of it : the saying of tertullian is received : quod antiquiss . veriss . truth is ancient , and error novel : but m. noyes would avoid this prejudice , where he saith , that the fathers so predicated the unity of an universal church , that they laid foundations for an universal bishop . i shall therefore endeavour to shew the novelty of it , and first absolutely considered in it self . secondly relatively , and that first in respect of the protestant , and then of the presbyterian party . 1. absolutely . if we credit the * centurists , the particular churches in the first hundred of years after the apostles , did exercise all church-gouernment within themselves : * they did ordain and depose ministers , admonish and excommunicate obstinate offenders : held synods or meetings , wherein they determined the affairs of their own body : in doubtful cases they consulted with other churches , not by reason of their superiority , but upon the ground of common charity . but no hint of this catholick governing body among them . object . but in occasions which concerned many churches , they held that they should be transacted in synods and councels : and they did accordingly in such meetings exercise superior power in the particular churches ; as excommunication , ordination , deposition of ministers , determining of controversies &c. besides several expressions of the ancients imply as much . to which i answer , first , to the synods and councells : that what concerns many , should be debated by many &c. doth not conclude them a corporation , no more then the common treaties of nations in things of joynt concernment . secondly , their exercising the acts above mentioned in their particular churches , and their acting these things in synods were ( it is certain ) at some distance of time : and seeing the former way of government is mentioned first ; it may well be , that the latter came in as the discipline of churches began to be corrupted , and decline to worldly policie : which happened in this first age also , say the same * authors . 3. it might be by decree and judgement onely , not by actual execution of such things , as 1 cor. 5. i haue determined that when ye are gathered &c. and john 4. 2. christ baptized more disciples then iohn , though christ himself baptized not , but his disciples . 4. howsoever their practise in this ( if it were at the same time , and not after discipline declined ) must be expounded to be consistent with their other practise within themselves , whereby they owned entire , ( and of right ) independent power from any other church or churches . so that in such united synods or councells , each church might act its owne power , though in union with other ; and all act as so many several and distinct churches united ; not as one entyre universal body , in the nature and notion of it , different , distinct , and superior to the particular churches . so that being gathered , they had a larger power , but not a greater nor another power as a general councel , but as so many particular churches or elders congregated . they acted not as a parliament , but as a dyett of so many free-states . or to take m. hudsons owne similitude . as a heap of stones , have no more inward vertue because they are an heap , then if they were each one by themselves ; they have a larger , but not a more excellent one , or of another kind ; neither doth the power of working , ( what ever their vertue be ) agree to them first , bebecause they are an heap , but because they are stones of such and such a nature . so here ; they might excommunicate then , but it might be from their owne heap ( as we may so speak ) or societies onely : not as out of the catholick visible church also , unlesse per accidens ; in as much as he that is rightly excommunicated out of one church , is really excommunicated out of all ( because they are essentially and mystically one , and to go by the same rule ) though formally he may not be so . as he that is justly condemned for a traytor in one of the kings dominions , is really and vertually condemned in the rest : because these domions are politically one in their head ; yet may they be independent one from another in their proper governments and rights , as was said above concerning england and scotland . fifthly , it was but a voluntary association , or by right of fraternity only , and not of onenesse of corporation : which appears by astringing and confining , even in after times , in some councells , the power of bishops and ministers , to , and within their owne diocesses and churches , so as to pronounce all the acts they did elsewhere ( unlesse by call or permission ) void , and of none effect . whether it were judgement , ordination , excommunication , it shall be ( say they ) of no force : as the councels and canon law are cited by crakanthorp himself ; one of our adversaries in this cause . so cyprian saith , that stephan bishop of rome , put his sithe into other mens harvest , when he endeavoured by authority to restore two whom the bishops of spain had deposed . now if they had apprehended the whole church to be but one corporation or great congregation : and all the bishops and ministers to be over this one church in common : why then ( though in regard that each man was assigned by the church to his particular place for the avoyding of confusion ) such acts out of their owne churches might be disorderly and irregular ; yet could they not be formally void : for that the whole church , being committed to each and to all ; they had been within their charge , seeing they had an habitual and fundamental right thereunto , as being officers per se , and properly of the whole church , and not of any particular church , but by accident onely . and let it be remembred ; that these constitutions were much later then the churches we spake of before . this for churches and councells . we come now to particular , ( and those the most eminent ) persons : let us hear themselves speak . first chrysostome : the sacrifice or passeouer was to be eaten in one house , and not to be conveied out : that is , the house is one that hath christ : and the many houses of the hebrews have but onely one * power , nature , and condition , as the churches throughout the world , and in several provinces being many in numbers , are but one church . where he makes them one in that they have one nature and condition , but saith , they are many in number . whereas this opinion makes all the churches in the world to be but one in number , in respect of corporation and government : as all the houses in a city make but one single corporation : and all the corporations in england , make but one single kingdom . so that this testimony ; taking the distinction above mentioned , of onenesse in nature of those , that are many in number : looks as much , if not more , on us , then on our opposites . 2. clemens alexand. * there is absolutely but one ancient and catholick church in the vnity of one faith : whereunto agreeth that of calvine : the unitie of the church consists in the unitie of the faith , and ( expresly against this universal visible government ) he addes , it is not necessary that we see it ( the church catholick ) and that it be visible , for preservation of that unity . 3. cyprianus : when he professedly disputeth the question about the unity of the church ( passing by the corruptions added in this place , and some of his * epistles , by the papists ) defineth the unity of the church by doctrine and discipline : and saith , this onely is the cause of schismes : quod magistri coelestis doctrina suis quod idem est ecclesiae vivitas non servatur . that the doctrine of our heavenly master , or which is all one , the unity of the church is not preserved : and as there is one god , one christ , one faith : so there is one church , one discipline in it : one bishoprick , whereof in the whole every one hath his share : and as the sun hath many beams , but one light ; and the boughes of a tree many , but one trunk , so many particular churches , whereof ( unum lumen , unum caput , una origo ) one light , one head , one original : in all which he makes the unity of the church to consist in onenesse of nature , faith , spirit , head ; not in number and government . as the leaves and boughes are not one in number , and in themselves , but in their original and root : so are the churches one in christ , and the spirit , and nature ; though different in suppositum and government . 4. hieron. it is called one altar : as it is said one faith , and one baptisme , and one church : but faith and baptisme , are said to be one in respect of kind and nature , not integrally , and numerally . 5. augustine : he , speaking of the first subject of the keyes or church power , saith , for all the saintes the●efore that doe cleave inseparably to the body of christ did peter receive the keyes of the kingdom of heaven : because not he alone : but ( universa ecclesia ligat solvitque peccata ) the universal church doth binde and loose sins . but that he doth not mean joyntly as one body or corporation ; but severally , every church by it selfe ( and so the onenesse of the church here implyed , is in nature and kind , not in number ) appeares by what he saith in other places ; as where repeating that about excommunication . mat. 18. if he hears not the church let him be unto thee as a heathen : he saith : he who joyneth him to himself , which is after this order cast out , he not permitting ( being orthodox ) by vvhom he is cast out ( juris sacredotij sancti limites excedit ) doth violate the rights of holy priesthood . he doth imply , that particular churches did excommunicate within themselves , or the universal church distributively taken . 6. eucherius . the church dispersed throughout the whole world : consists in one and the same faith , and fellowship of catholique truth : and vvheras there is an innumerable multitude of the faithfull , yet they rightly are said to have one heart , and one soul , in respect of their society in the common faith and love . where all the universal onenesse hee implyeth it of faith and love . this opinion then doth not appeare in prime and best antiquitie , nor with any evidence in those that followed : so that till better testimonies appeare , we must say that it is therefore absolute new . 2. it is more new relatively . 1. in reference to the protestant party ; who generally ( save very few excepted ) have never owned it : but on the contrary constantly opposed it , as shall be shewed anon . but it is most nevv in regard of the presbytirians : these brethren being the first we have met with : or , as it seemes , themselves either , for those they quote , make rather against them , ( as will appeare afterward ) certaine it is , that calvine whom they vouch as the first restorer of that government ( though his was but a voluntary association ) as we saw before , gave evidence expresly against it . also chamier speaking the sence of the french churches as afterward must be related : but we need not be sollicitous to prove this ; seeing the brethren of this opinion confesse this conceit to be opposed by the greatest part of the protestant writers : as wil appear in the fourth argument . if therefore novelty and new light be a prejudice against other opinions , it cannot but reflect suspition upon this . 2. another just prejudice against this opinion , may be , that it is of dangerous consequence . for if the whole church that is visible and to be seen on earth , be one single corporation or kingdom ; and the first subject to whom all government in church affairs belongeth , and in whose right , and by power from which , all particular churches do act : then of necessitie . 1. there must be viniversal and general officers , and some one above the rest , to whom the particular churches may have continual recourse . for all corporations have officers , that are officers of the whole corporation , and over all , and not particular onely : as not onely the constables of the severall parishes , or aldermen of cath ward , but the major also of the whole ; who hath ( though not a divided , yet ) a distinct and superior power in order to the corporation , above the rest , though conjoyned . 2. seeing christ hath provided a seasonable and standing means , for the continual exercise of the government of his church , that may be made use of as occasion requires : therefore these officers must have alwaies residence in some one place , though they may also remove to another : they must have an actual being and residence , as being the officers for the exercise of the power of the universal church . for it is impertinent to say , that it is sufficient the universal church meet by parties in severall countreys and ages : for the meeting of officers of corporations must be in one place and time ; as the parliament , convocation , consistory , &c. and it were notably vaine to imagine that christ hath committed the government of his church first & chiefly to that body that should not meet six times in sixteen hundred yeares : * nay never ; for there never was yet any universal meeting of the catholick church nor its officers : though some councells have been called generall , because of the number of bishops , unitie of places from whence they have come , and the emperours latitude of dominion that called them . 3. from hence would follow that very many particular churches would be in peril to be greatly damaged : seeing in appeals they must be adjudged by those that are many thousand miles distant from them , and could not have perfect * cognizance of the cause : nor in case they wanted information for their guidance in judgement , could by reason of distance have it in time . 4. great would be the vexation , charges , travel , &c. that would arise from such a court , as whereunto appeals were to come : and yet such there must be , if the whole church be but one corporation . 3. a third and fourth prejudice and probable exception against this opinion is , t is papal , and anti-protestant . 1. papal , not indeed in regard of the height of it ( as it refers the root and head of this universallity unto rome onely ) but in regard of the opinion it self : an universal visible church : a mayne ground of the former . m. hudson ( and so m. noyes ) indeed would avoid this prejudice also , but with labour in vain : he saith he stateth not the question as the papists do : because they take visible for glorious : catholick , for romane : and subject it to the pope for 1. whatsoever the papists add to the question , yet the substance and substratum of it , is the same . in vain should they fix the seat of it at rome , and subject it to the pope , if it might not be in it self one corporation and republique . 2. again they do not take visible for glorious : but for that which is obvious to the sense : though they make glorious an adjunct thereunto . 3. they so fix the seat of the church at rome , and subject it to the pope ( severall of the most eminent of them ) as that it is onely in the absence of a general councel , which they make above the pope , as being the church catholick representative , as is shewed else-where . but to return . bellarmine ( de eccles. lib. 3. cap. 11. ) haveing related the opinion of the protestants , and propounded the romish in opposition thereunto , viz. there is a visible catholick church . he proves it by the same places , that the authors of this opinion do , to wit . mat. 16. vpon this rock i will build my church : and chap. 18. tell the church ( which though in that place he bring to prove it visible : yet it implies to make it universal also : for both these joyntly [ catholick , visible ] he was to prove in opposition to the protestants ) for as they say this could not be meant of a particular church , so hee , that it cannot be meant of an invisible . and he defines it to be one visible church , or congregation of men bound together by the profession of the same faith , and participation of the same sacraments , under the government of lawfull pastors , and especially , of that onely vicar of christ on earth , the pontiffe or bishop of rome . in the definition it is to be noted that hee makes all beleevers but one single corporation or congregation , ( though divided in places , ) under one single governent , under one visible head the pope of rome . in all but the last clause ( which is not essential to the thing , though it be to those persons ) the definition agrees to the minde of the authours of the opinion here impugned . and 2. it is anti-protestant , being opposed generally by them . calvine disputing against the papists , about the unitie and visibilitie of the church , saith ( as was noted before ) the onenesse of the church consisteth in the onenesse of faith . and for the visibilitie , he saith : it is not necessary for the preserving of this unitie , that we should see the church with our eyes . chamier in his answer to hardings argument against jewell , ( art. 4. sect. 17. urging that every multitude in it selfe one , did stand in need of one governour by whom it might be managed : but the church visible , is in it self one ) saith : the church as it is catholicke or vniversall is not one in it selfe , because it is one generall , or universall , gathered and aggregated of many particular churches , as if one should say , the kingdome , or a kingdome , not this or that kingdome , but kingdome in generall , the parts whereof are all particular kingdomes , the french , spanish , english . for so the word chvrch being taken , it is compounded ( mark , not constituted ) of infinite particular churches , the romane constantinopolitane , &c. now that which is one in that sence , it is manifest that it needs no one governour : for not as to every kingdom there is a king , so to all kingdomes there is one king , that , that which is called kingdome in generall may have a being , and therefore not in the church , neither : as it is understood to be one collected of many particular churches : is it necessary that one should be president . he evidently both denyeth , and excellently refuteth this catholick union , by this very thing , because the church is catholicke , therefore not really one , but notionally only , as all the kingdomes in the world are one in the nature and notion of kingdomes , but not one corporation , or one government . and so before him bishop jewell in answer to the same papist , ( proving the minor or second part of the former argument , viz. that the church is one visible congregation or societie , because ( as our brethren do ) there is one faith and baptisme , one calling , so one church : as saint paul saith , ye all are one body and members one of another : and in our creede wee all professe to beleeve one holy catholick and apostolick church ) saith , that whereas mr harding had proved the major also , out of aristotles 12. booke of his metaphysicks , out of homer : never did aristotle or homer dreame of this new fancy , that one king should rule over the whole world : and by consequence or that the whole world was but one kingdome ; and so he implyeth it to be as ridiculous that all churches should bee but one governing church : and hee addeth what is ( considerable in this argument , wherein reason is followed , rather then scripture : ) his reason were better if either peter or paul , or any catholick father had used it : and then citeth austin , ( de doct. christ . l. 3. c. 28. ) who saith , to attribute much to discourse of reason in understanding scripture ( haec consuetudo periculosa est , ) this custome is dangerous ; ( per scripturas enim divinas , multo tutius ambulatur ) it is far safer following of the scripture . so that bishop jewell conceiveth this against both scripture and antiquitie . mr rutherford also [ due right of presbytery , pag. 231. titleing the page thus : how our church hath been visible ] makes it out only by this that in all ages there have been some who have held the same points with us in the main . implying the visibility , and by consequence , the onenesse also to consist in onenesse of faith and doctrine . but he hath a little before ( pag. 206. ) a considerable passage ( at this time ) about the call of our first reformers : and saith that any enlightened by the spirit of god , and members of the catholick church , should teach , informe and help their fellow members , being seduced and led by blinde guides , is agreeable to the law of nature . also that , in extraordinary times , men may go beyond the ordinary path so the thing done be materially good . but this by the way . lastly , the professors of leyden ( cited for this opinion by apollon. which is much to be wondered at ) doe distinguish betwixt the church catholick and particular : and say , that the former is one in doctrine and faith , but the latter one in discipline and government also . evidently implying the universall church not to be one in gouernment , or not to be one corporation . and thus of the third and fourth inconveniences of this opinion , and so much also for the first generall head of exceptions against it , viz. the just prejudices , and suspicious appearances of it , as being novell , dangerous , papall and anti-protestant . chap. iiii. demonstrations against an vniversall visible governing church . hitherto have been handled the lesse artillery , and as 't is hoped , not without successe : the main batterie now follows : by arguments demonstrative , and such as necessarily conclude against this opinion : and that this may be done , i premise as granted these principles . 1. that the author of all ecclesiastick power in the churches , is iesus christ ; for unto him all of it was committed , and from him derived . 2. that he expressed , plainly enough , whatsoever was of great consequence for the well ordering of his house ; as for all other things concerning the salvation of his people . 3. that the apostles were appointed by him to perfect by themselves , or deputies whilest themselves were living , either by precept or practise , whatsoever concerned the churches in such particulars . 4. that they accordingly did faithfully discharge this trust . 5. that christ and his apostles in those their precepts and practise , are a rule to all churches to the end of the world . i am with you , ( viz. ) in observing these things which i have commanded you ) unto the end of the world . 6. that they are our rule both negatively and positively : i. e. what they did not in such and such cases when they had opportunity , we may not in the like : and what they did , we must do so also , as occasion requires , and opportunity serves . the former particulars are plain enough : the last not difficult : if these places following , and the like be considered . act. 15. 24. the apostles charge the urgers of circumcision upon the gentiles , not onely because they taught such doctrine ; but also because they taught it having received no such commandment ; unlesse we understand those words as having reference to what those teachers it may be boasted : viz. that they had commission from the apostles for that doctrine . again , the apostle in the epistle to the hebrews insinuates it to be sufficient proof , that the priesthood did not at all belong to the tribe of iuda , but of levi ; because the scripture speakes nothing ( saith he ) concerning the former in that respect . the speech of balaam implies as much and that other of the prophet ; if the lord have not spoken , who can prophesie . we know how the lord thundereth against those who prophesyed , and the lord had not spoken to them ; which yet we would have understood ( as was said before ) with this caution , viz. not spoken , neither expresly , nor by neer consequence , in things of special concernment to the church . 7. that the government of the church of christ ( it being his house ) and the knowledge of the first subject or chief trustee to whom the keys of that house is committed , is of very great concernment ; and therefore to be laid down in scripture : at least by such evidence , as with moderate opening , to godly , knowing , and impartial men , may comfortably be perceived . these things premised : we come to the arguments . the first whereof is taken ( negatively ) from the author and founders of the church : viz. the silence of christ and his apostles touching one catholick visible governing church . this i conceive is not to be found in scripture ; unlesse by such strayning of reason , as ( we saw before ) austin saith is dangerous in the things of god . what is brought on the contrary out of scripture , shall be examined in another place , to wit , in the fifth chapter , when the arguments for this opinion ( if god permit ) shall severally be discussed : onely for methods sake , this being the joint for this argument naturally to fall into , 't is here mentioned . the second argument is from the same persons positively : to wit : the contrary institution of christ and his apostles , gathered plainly from their teaching and practise . 1. if the keyes of government were given first and fully with entire power immediately to a particular church , then there is no universal visible governing church ( because that is therefore contended for as the first subject of government ) but the first is true , therefore the latter . the former is thus proved . all church power was given first and fully to the church of the jews : but the church of the jews was a particular church , not the universal ; unlesse by accident : because so it was , that there was no other church state in the world at that time : unlesse we shall hold , as * some do , that there were other societies of beleevers that were not united to the jewish church ; as iob and his family , &c. but this is doubtful , i therefore omit it . the church of the jews was a particular one . 1. it is every where called one congregation . 2. all the church in the chiefest sex of it , met together to solemn worship at one place , in the temple three times a year constantly , and oftner as occasion served , in fasts , war , thanksgiving , consultations , &c. neither had they any thing to do with those that joyned not themselves to their body : as cornelius act. 10. a beleever , and yet one that peter might not go to . and though it be granted , to have been a type of the church of the new testament , yet not as catholick , but as congregational , as it self was : or else as mystical : for even our brethren denie that order of governours to bind under the gospel : though the papists contend for it . 2. the first institution of the church under the new testament by christ , does give entire power of government immediately to a particular church , matth. 18. if thy brother offend thee , &c. tell the church , if he hear not the church , let him be as a heathen . &c. now this was a particular church , for it was such an one as one might complain to , and it was endued with entire power , even to excommunication . 2. if the power and presence of christ be so with a particular society , that whatsoever they binde on earth shall be bound in heaven &c. and this be given immediatly to a particular society of christians , then the assertion is good , but so it is in that chapter : when two or three are gathered in my name , i am in the midst : and so , as that what they binde on earth shall be bound in heaven . &c. as by the coherence may be gathered . object . but this is meant of the jewish church . answ. 1. if so , the former argument takes place . but 2. it is not * likely , for where is the jewish consistory called the church ? it is called by christ matth. 5. the lower assembly , a councel : the greater sanhedrin , a iudgement , but not a church . 2. he had chap. 16. spoken of his church ; and it is like , had explained himself more fully about it : for all could not be written , ( as iohn informes us chap. 21. ult. ) 3. in the former chapter matth. 18. 18. he giveth the greatest ecclesiastick power to a congregation of christians , whatsoever ye shall binde on earth , shall be bound in heaven &c. it is added immediately upon his precept of telling the church , as the reason of it ; and to corroborate it ; he assures them in the same place , that what they should aske in his name should be done : and to strengthen that , he promiseth , that when they were gathered together , he would be in the middest of them . by all which it appears , that he speaks of a particular christian church , and which is to be noted , without any mention of appeal to a higher judicatory , if right should not be done there . 3. the first execution of the greatest act of entire power , was by admonition and command of the apostle himself , but not by his power , exercised in a particular church , without appeal to , or consulting of the universal church , ( which they might have done , according to this opinion , the apostles then being surviving , ) viz. delivering one over to sathan : the apostle saith , when ye ( of corinth ) are gathered , and my spirit ( consent and approbation , or the holy ghost acting in you and me ) by the power of our lord iesus christ , not which he hath committed to me , but which is among you ; for ( besides that paul ( according to this opinion ) being but one of the catholick ministers , could not orderly have excommunicated this man , without consulting with , or by authority of the rest of the apostles , representatives of the universal church , if the catholick church be the first subject of church power . ) it is certain that ecclesiastical power i●herent in any , cannot be delegated or transmitted over to another , but of transmitting apostolical power we read not . 4. if entire power were first committed to particular men , then not to the catholique church , and so it was not the first subject of church power , and so not one visible governing church ; but entire power was committed to the apostles severally , and to all joyntly , as hath been hitherto confessed by all : ergo , &c. object . but the apostles represented the catholick church ? answ. 1. not in all the power they received , for they might do that which all the churches cannot , as constitute articles of faith , &c. 2. they represented the church , not as united , but as multiplyed : for paul had as much power as any , and yet he was not personally united to them , as appears gal. 1. 17. 3. howsoever they had no successors in apostolick power , as neither had moses in his . at the first planting of a church , more power is to be used , then afterward is needfull : as our brethren of scotland alleadge , both for their having at the first , and for not reteining generall visitors still . 5. if the first reproofe from christs own mouth for the englect of exercise of church power , was directed to particular churches alone by themselves , and not to the combination of them , though neere one the other ; much lesse to the universall church : then particular churches had entire independent ecclesiasticall power as single churches , and not as parts of one visible catholicke : but the former is true , from the second and third chapters of the revelation , where christs reproofs are directed to the particular churches , and not to the presbytery over all , or to the catholicke church , though some of these churches were but 8. or 10. miles one from the other , and the furthest but two hundred , ( being all in the lesser asia ) and this after christianity had been about 70. years in the world : so that they had time to have combined or united into an vniversall , or at least into a nationall or provinciall societie or classis , if it had been so taught them , by the churchfounders , christ and his apostles . 2. sort of arg. from the matter or members of this universall governing church , laying for ground what was noted before , viz. that every subject or agent that hath reall and actuall properties and effects , must some time or other have existence and being as one ; if one naturall then so ; if one civil , then must they be as one body gathered into one place , as the jewish nation , as we said before , corporations in their halls , kingdomes , in their parliaments . this being undenyable ( though mr hudson deny it , ( against all experience and reason ) because it is sufficient ( saith he ) that they are under one king , and governed by the same laws : but how should they be so , if they never met , at least by their deputies formally , or virtually , to yeeld to such a government ; not ( as was proved before ) any ( cleare ) institution , left by christ for such incorporation . ) the 1. argument is , that which never had an actuall being , and existence in the world , that neither is , nor is the subject of church povver , much lesse the first : but this church catholick [ as such ] never had a being , because it was never together gathered into one place , neither in its members , nor in its deputies : and therefore can bee one not actually , or really in it self , but by * imagination onely , and conceit ; either in regard of the same onenesse of kinde and nature that is betwixt churches , or of relation they have to one head , and in order to , and dependance on one rule or law the word of god . as several armies , ( to use m. hudsons similitude ) gathered by commission from one generall , in severall parts of a kingdome or of an empire , or of the world ; and never yet brought together , nor intended so to be , but to abide under their severall particular commanders , one perhaps in england , another in india , might be called one army , in regard of one commission and one chief general . yet such a similitude will not here so properly serve , because the onenesse of the church is denyed by our brethren to be such as is of an army , where all are under the command of one : the whole church ( and its officers ) are by them said , to govern all particulars . object . but mr hudson saith , 1. that it is sufficient that the church catholick have existence and a being in the particulars , as a heap of stones in particulars stones , the element of water in the particular drops , churches in particular families , and families in particular persons , and whole things in their parts . but t is much that this authour ( or authours , a man-midvvife may be father also ) doth not see that his owne similitudes overthroweth his opinion , and fully cleareth what is here asserted : for none of these things were one , if they were not together in one place . were it one heap of stones , if one lay at m. hudsons dore , another at m. calamies , ( the licenser of his book ) which are many miles asunder : and another at a third mans . object . 2. but he saith that the catholick visible church hath sometimes met , as in a general councel , by their commissioners , as a ministerial church catholick . answ. 1. it is utterly denyed that ever there was any general councel which might be said to be the catholick church ; unto which , as himself seems to insinuate , the particular churches sent their commissioners . for 1. they were never sent to all . it was the first general and most famous , which was called by constantine , called the first councel of nice , wherein there were 318 bishops ? but how many places were there that were christian , over whom constantine reigned not ? and he sent but to those under his dominion . 2. it is probable he sent not to all neither ( for after the synod he wrote to those that were not there ) but to the most conspicuous places ; now we know in a free and lawful parliament of the kingdome , the smallest corporations must be sent to . 3. he called for the bishops chieflie , if not onely ; and i hope our brethren will not defend their being the orderly representatives of so many churches as were under them . m. cartwright ( on act. 15. and matth. 18. ) requires the presence also of the people . 4. he , not they , assumed governing catholick power , at least supreme , in calling and dissolving the councel : he received the papers , he concluded , he dismissed the bishops , &c. moreover here the whole catholick church representative , if it were such , had one visible head , and that not a minister , but a magistrate ( though afterward it turned to a minister , in the popes of rome ) and so in our owne kingdom : it being granted that the whole nation is one church ; the magistrate being head of the nation , declareth himself head of the church also : and this , or the other is like to be the issue of this opinion . 2. that society whose members never can have an actual being [ as such ] that is not to be defended either to be , or to be the first subject of church power ; but the universal visible church can never have a being as such ; that is , as one congregated united body , consisting of the elders ( at least ) of every particular church . for what place could be capacious to hold them ; now it hath been shewed that they must all at somtime meet so . now the company , though but the elders of each church , would be innumerable ; for who shall exclude any church from sending , that professe the name of christ , till excommunicated , and who shall do that . 2. if we shall adde to this , that no church can delegate or commit to commissioners their church power , it will strengthen much more the argument , for thence it will follow that they must all personally meet , &c. a third sort of arguments is from the form and nature of all bodies corporate , which consists in order of superior and inferior : they are truly described in that definition of bellarmine before recited , a little altered : viz. a society of men professing the same faith ( laws ) partaking of the same sacraments ( * oath ) under lawful pastors ( common magistrates ) and especially under one chief priest ( supreme magistrate ) now in such a body , the nature and forme , lies not in so many several men or families indued with particular priviledges of their owne ; and onely coming together , and joyning their several interests and priviledges to make up one aggregated priviledge ; as a heap of stones of many stones ; or a company of constables of many constables ; who have no greater or new power by being gathered , then if they were but single : but the forme and nature of a corporation is , that all are bound in one single body , under lawes and officers common to all , and that of one place , distinct from others : and their officers made by the consent of the whole , or by him or them that represents the whole : and are officers to the whole , some above other , officers of officers ; if the body be great , and one , ( for the time above the rest in place and power , at least in some kinde and respect ( as the speakers in the houses of parliament ) besides the officers of the particular parts of the corporation : as besides the aldermen or constables of several wards , there is the major &c. object . if it be objected that christ is the absolute king of his church , and that he hath instituted his corporation different from others , by that place , matth. 20. 26. it shall not be so among you . answ. we say , so hath he made it different from other societies in this also , that it is not one single corporation , as a kingdome of this world ; but many in number , though one in nature . but if it must be one corporation ( though aristocratical , and as a parliament , yet ) then there ariseth these inconveniences . 1. they must existe in some one place , at least at some time in their owne persons , and alwaies in the persons of those who , in the absence of the whole society , are to be the officers for the execution of the decrees of the catholick church : and then if any prince arise that is more potent , he will make the seat of the universal governing church where he pleases , it may be at rome , as constantine did at nice , for a season . 2. then must the whole church be governed by some constant and standing officers , that are not officers , but of the whole ( at least for the time they sit ) as corporations that are lesse , are governed in ordinary by the aldermen and major or bayliffes : kingdoms in absence of the representative kingdom , which is a parliament ( answerable to a general councel , according to our brethrens opinion ) by a king and councel : so must the church by a committee at least , and a chayr-man . and these two are further evident , in as much as whilest the church-government had any appearance of vniversal : there was such a set company of officers , and they had a certain place of residence , that they might be resorted to , viz. the apostles at hierusalem . 3. there must be one common form of faith , discipline , worship , and profession : in all particulars the same agreed on , and to be formally propounded and taken as occasion shall require , by all the beleevers in the world ; and this forme to be made either in a general councel , or by that representative church or presbyterie . 4. then all churches must act from the authority , and by vertue of commission from the catholick church , for they act in the name of the catholick church . so the assertors of this opinion expressely : but then it follows unavoydably , that all particular churches , whether national or congregational that shall innovate , change , and alter any material thing in doctrine , worship , or government , without the consent of the catholick church , are schismaticks , and if they be resolute in it , against what might be said to the contrary , they are hereticks : as those have done , that have changed in part , doctrine , worship , and that government which those general councells did owne and establish : much more those , who have sworne to such alterations , expresly against such things as the universal church in those councels did decree . 5. then all magistrates are deprived of power of reformation within their jurisdictions , before authority derived from the church , either in general councel , or from their committee : and hence is that cited out of our owne lawyers : quod omnes tangit : ab omnibus approbari debet . that which concernes all , must be allowed of all . viz. that are of the same visible corporation . 6. lastly , ( that i may add no more ) there must be a solemne meeting for the election of such general officers as are to governe the universal church in the absence of the universal ministerial representative church : for if one corporation should choose burgesses that should vote in the businesse of the whole kingdome , it would not be valid ; if there had not been first an agreement of the whole kingdome in parliament gathered , that these so and so chosen should be officers general , and have votes in the publick . object . if it bee said that christ himselfe hath appointed such generall officers , by appointing ministers in every congregation , and then synods for publicke occasions . it is answered , this follows not : 1. because an officer chosen in one particular corporation , as a major or alderman is not an officer in the whole kingdome ; no though all the majors in the kingdom were gathered together are they officers of the whole kingdome , unlesse by way of distribution and as in relation to their severall places ; and but remotely and by accident only to the whole kingdome : so though all the corporations of the kingdome were gathered , yet are they not a parliament , and supreme court , simply because they are meerly gathered together ; but it must be on former consent according to such lawes , whereby they become a new and a superiour body to all the kingdome , both joyntly , ( so long as they continue a parliament ) and severally : much lesse should they have any more power because they are many , but dis-joyned farre asunder : so it is in the church . 2. they may be officers of synods and councels though never so generall , and yet not be officers generall of the whole world , in point of jurisdiction , as one entire body : because their meeting doth not make them a new body , nor give them as such a body any superiour juridical power ( but onely consultative , and decretory ) whether we look on any scripture precept or practise of the churches in the new testament . 3. it is denyed that christ hath instituted any such catholicke visible body , or the representative thereof : an oecumenicall or generall councell [ much lesse the abstract of it a catholick committee or presbyterie ] and there is reason for it : for the multitude of persons , difference of spirits , languages , &c. danger , and want of ground to delegate from hand to hand , ecclesiasticke power , would occasion great confusion , and such as god is not the authour of . the fourth and last sort of arguments are taken from the end , the authours of this opinion aime at , from the issue of the opinion it selfe , and from the true scope of church government . the former seems to be ; either to found the right of such presbyteriall government as is now endeavoured ; and to deprive particular churches of intire power in themselves , or at least of independency in their government from other churches : or else it is to lay groundwork of a more effectuall cure and remedy then hitherto , for all distempers of particular churches , whether nationall or other . touching the first ; what will it profit if they gaine by this notion , the jurisdiction of the whole world for a while , and afterward loose their own and others liberty ? ( and perhaps souls also : for the former being lost , truth will be soone oppressed , as is to be seen in the papacy ) of which straightway . again absolute independency so as no other church shall have any thing to do with an erring or delinquent church is disavowed , both in doctrine and practise , by the greatest patrons of that way in this kingdome , and beyond the seas . * concerning the second ; all distempers of churches , as farre as the apostolicall churches were cured of them , have beene healed sufficiently without this opinion , yea and better then by those who have owned and practised this principle ; for they have cured some , but made others greater and stronger then they were before ; as we see in the church of rome . 2. but whatsoever their aime be , they should remember that the true end of church government , is not only to avoid confusion and disorder &c. but also to preserve the rights and priviledges of particular persons and churches , to prevent tyranny and invasion that way , ( evils that are as dangerous to the church and as introductive to heresie as the former ) unto which this opinion , in the issue of it , opens a wide gappe . my baynes , ( whom the london ministers quote with honour ) saith , dioces triall q. 1. pag. 21. that those who subject themselves to a presbytery , as being under it by subordination , may in effect as well be subject to an episcopall ( and by consequence i say , to a papall ) consistory . for if the church universall be one visible governing body , a man will readily conclude it must have universall officers ; and among many , there must be some one chief : and christ that hath ordered this , hath surely designed by some intimation or other who this should be , and where the seat of the vniversall church should reside : and then how readily will that place of matthew 16. thou art peter , &c. be understood to place it upon him , and his successors : and then the question is , where hee was bishop ; and because the scripture saith nothing , therefore * ecclesiasticall writers must be credited , and then the place is rome : and the rather because 1. their faith was spoken of throughout the whole world . 2. there was the seat of the empire &c. so that this opinion if not in the end of the authours , yet in the issue of the things , leads a man by the hand back to egypt and babylon again , as it hath done many . if it bee replyed no ; for that in this vniversall body politique , all churches and their elders shall be equall , and so in the generall councell conveened , whereas in the papacy all ( is {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) depends upon , and is referred to the pope . i answer , 1. ( besides what is said above ) the popes themselves in some actions , insinuate that they are not supreme in their owne personall relation , but as the head , president , or chair-man , of the vniversall representative presbyterie ; which are the colledge of cardinalls representing the colledge of apostles ( said to be the generall presbyterie , representative of the catholicke visible church ) hence the forme of some instruments in the popes name , is : by the advice of the most reverend the cardinalls , his holinesse decrees such or such a thing : in imitation of kingdomes ( which christ forbiddeth his church , as being of an other nature ) where the parliament represents the kingdome ; and in their absence the king and councel represent them both : hence perhaps it is , that in proclaimations the forme often is ; wee ( saith the king ) by the advice of our privie councell , &c. 2. papists of chiefest note , * yea popish vniversities ; yea popish councells does assert a generall councell ( which is nothing else , but an vniversall presbytery ) to be above the pope . so that it may be really popish , though all do not depend on , or bee referred to the pope firstly and primarily . now that this catholique visible church , as our brethren have represented it , may degenerate or rather advance thereunto : let it be considered that papall government it self had the like originall . it is granted even by bishops themselves , that the bishop at first was but the president or chaire-man of the presbyterie or assembly of ministers . afterwards partly by the ambition of those who were chosen to that place , partly by the sloth , flattery and slavishnesse of the rest of the ministers and people , all came under him . so also at first each church did all things among themselves , as ordaine , excommunicate , &c. afterwards they associated with the great churches : in time , what was of voluntary consent , became a necessity and due subjection . so the bishops of rome , at first for civilities sake , because it was the emperours seat , had the precedency for a time , at length claimed it as due . so here if an universall coporation , there must be universall officers ; over these one president , or super-intendent , or chaire-man : hee perhaps may have it for his life , if an able man ; and may obtaine to act with a committee as the representative of a generall councell in their absence : and what hinders , but if another boniface and phocas ; an ambitious president and wicked emperour meet , hee may be made vniversall bishop . men are more loose in their ecclesiasticall then civil liberties : and if this government bee not of god , he will leave it to corrupt it selfe , even as the other did . but thirdly , necessarily and of it self , it tends to the depriving of all particular churches of their libertie ; yea , though they should be nationall churches . 1. because in them particular churches are not left to their choise ; but are bound by this opinion to associate and to send elders to the councells and presbyteries ; so the reverend assembly . * 2. though they should not doe it , yet are they neverthelesse under the government of the catholique church , which is the first subject of church power : and so are bound to act according to the letter or plaine sence of the determinations of the catholicke church , without adding , altering or detracting in any materiall thing , especially which might concern the whole church ; * and then what will become of the reformations of all the reformed churches . 2. in particular in respect of the protestant churches of europe , 1. because they are much fewer then the other churches of the world , that are in the maine orthodox , ( as some whiles since a * presbyterian writer hath given in the account . ) 2. who shall exclude the popish and other heterodox churches from being members of the catholicke visible church , till by a generall councell they be heard , and excommunicated , or non communioned : and whether the major part of the churches in the world will consent to such an excommunication or non-communion is uncertaine , and then they must vote also : and so the orthodox churches will be the more over-borne . object . 1. but it may be it will be said , the throat of the cause is yet safe , because it seems sufficient , that the major part of those that are of the same judgement ought to governe the lesse . to which i reply , that in all corporations and common-wealths , ( as our brethren say , the vniversall visible church is ) not the major part of a part ; but the major part of the whole body , are to rule the rest ; and that not divided in severall places at a distance , but convened together , at least in some neernesse of place . object . 2. if it be said that by reason of distance of place , and multitude of persons this cannot be done , viz. the collection of the catholicke visible church . i answer and say , 1. therefore such an opinion is not to be asserted which unavoidably and necessarily enforceth such a gathering . 2. that in respect of the commissioners general , some for many churches ( which the authours of this opinion doe , or must allow ) it may be done for matter of companie or number . 3. princes from one end of the world to the other , hold leagues and correspondencies together : as doth the kingdom of england with russia in the north ; and persia in the east . 4. rome governs in all parts of the world as a single corporation , notwithstanding distance of place . 5. lastly , the churches of europe at least , might have met for the reformations they have endeavoured , as many of them did in the synod of dort about arminius . chap. v. the arguments for an vniversal visible governing church , with the answers to them . hitherto we have , as it were , battered and taken the assailants worke : it remains that we seise on their ammunition and weapons : the opposite reasonings produced by them . and first to the arguments of appollonius : who ( by the way ) i observe to give the cause in all particulars but one or two , to those of the congregational way : and well he could not avoid it ; seeing that the churches of holland , go by the same principles ; except that of the authority of synods ; and baptizing of all children : which latter , how it stands with their denying church-fellowship to all , ipsi viderint . but to his arguments . the first is taken out of 1 cor. 12. 28. god hath set in the church some apostles , some prophets , some evangelists , some pastors and teachers : which church there is said to consist of divers and heterogeneal members ; but the ministry , the apostles , &c. are not given to any particular church , and the apostles &c. were the governours of the catholick church ; ergo , the visible catholick church is one governing body under which all particular churches are subjected and conteyned answ. at the stating of the question i premised the distinction of onenesse in essence and mysterie , and onenesse in integralls and accidents . hence i answer 1. that it is utterly à non sequitur , and inconsequent to say , because this scripture , and other like , speak of the church as of one in mysterie , in nature , and in essence , that therefore it s one in number , or one visible single body : that because the church is somevvay one , therefore integrally , and by way of single corporation visible . now the apostle speaks of the church as one in mysterie and nature , not visibly , and in number , appears from verse 13. where he saith , ye are all baptized into one body , and been made to drink into one spirit . now compare this with its parallel , eph. 4. 4. 5. where the apostle saith , there is but one baptisme , one faith : and so makes the onenesse of the body to consist in these , uniting the members to one christ , by one spirit , to one god . in which place two things are observable : first , that as he saith the church is one , so he saith baptisme is one , and faith is one ; shall we therefore say that there is but one single baptisme , or one single faith , visibly and integrally one in the vvorld ? surely any man would answer that the former are said to be one mystically , invisibly , and in respect of their kinde and nature , because all true faith is of the same kinde , and so all true baptisme ; but are as many several faiths in number , and baptismes , as there are several beleevers and baptised persons . secondly , that the onenesse of the church essentially , consists in the onenesse for kinde of faith , hope , baptisme : as also , in the onenesse of its head , its spirit , and its god : which doth indeed make it one mystical body , but it doth not conclude them to be one , visibly , outwardly , and externally : because some of these things wherein they are one , are invisible , others not on earth : as the faith , the hope , spirit , are invisible : god and christ are not on earth visibly ; and therefore the onenesse here mentioned , makes not one visible corporation on earth , and as one to be considered , and to act . vve willingly grant that this union mystical doth imply an union visible also , as much as may stand with the institution of christ , and the edification of the church : but neither christs institution , nor the edification of the church implies , but opposes such an vniversal , visible , vnited corporation , as we saw before . but of this more in our answer to his second argument . now to return . as we say of the body , and of baptisme , faith , hope , &c. so in the like sence we grant that the church is one , hath but one vvorship , and but one government , viz. for nature , and kinde in the substantialls of it , or that general platforme of it matth. 18. and what else is to be gathered from the precepts and practise of the apostles : but as the church is not one visible policie , or corporation in number , so neither in the outward government of it . for this as other accidents follows the nature of its subject . so then , when the apostle saith , god hath set in the church some apostles &c. the church must be taken for one ; not in regard of the outward or accidentall state of it , but indefinitely , and in regard of its inward nature and essence : that is , neither as visible , nor invisible ; nor as universal or particular : for all these are outward or accidental to the church . object . 1. but he mentioneth baptisme , various gifts , and members , divers ministries , as apostles , &c. all which are visible , therefore he meaneth the visible church . object . 2. and whereunto belong both jewes and gentiles , yea all that are baptised ; to which also the apostles , evangelists , and various gifts are given ; therefore it is the vniversall church . therefore i give a second answer , i grant that hee speakes of the church , whether visible or invisible , vniversal or particular , but not of it in these respects : but mystically , and totally , as comprehending those in heaven also ; and this sence i will stick unto . and it appears from the scope of the place , ( the * not attending whereof , hath occasioned ( saith bucer ) great calamities in all ages to the church , whilest men catch at words that make for their purpose , not weighing the drift of the author in such passages : ) the apostles intent there , is plainly this : viz. to perswade the corinthians to concord among themselves ( and with the beleeving jews , as seems to be implyed ▪ verse 2. and 13. ) and contentednesse in their gifts , and to the right use of them . now for the fastening of this , he laies for ground , that all christians , whether tryumphant or militant , are but one mystical body of christ , vers. 12. and then teaches them that gifts , they are all from one spirit for mutual edification , and for the distinguishing of the members of one and the same body , and that there might be no schisme or rent in the body about these gifts , which are bestowed for the better uniting of it : that all members cannot be in the same office , nor have the same gifts , but yet may be of the same body , whereof the church of corinth was a part . this is all the apostle aimes at here : and so also in that other parallel place , eph. 4. 3 , 4 , 5. &c. his scope is the same , to exhort to unity among themselves , and with the beleeving jews whom they stood at a distance from , as they from them ( as appears in peters withdrawing from the gentiles when the jews came , gal. 2. ) and this is implyed ephes. 3. 6. the gentiles fellow-heirs , and of the same body : and verse 15. he extends it to those in heaven also : the whole family in heaven and earth : and having named the church vers. 10. and verse 21. he saith in this church should be glory to god vvorld vvithout end : but then he must take the church for the whole mystical body in heaven and earth . and so when afterward chap. 4. he saith there is one body , , and he gave some apostles &c. for the perfecting of the body , he must mean the whole , and not that on earth onely : for the body of christ is not one part onely , but the whole , which must be perfected by union of jews and gentiles ; those on earth to be added to those in heaven . he takes the body entirely , not for the visible part onely . now in this body , or in this church as chap. 3. 6. or in this family in heaven and earth , as verse 15. he hath set some apostles , some pastors . though these have exercise of their functions onely , in that part which is one earth , and in that part of it on earth which is visible : yet they are placed in the whole . answ. 3. should i grant ( which i doe not ) that the apostle , is to be understood of the church on earth , yet hee speaks as well of a particular church , ( when he saith , god hath set some in the church , ) as of the generall . it s evident ; 1. if the word apostle , ( which alone grounds the objection ) be taken properly , in that he applies his speech particularly , though not exclusively , to the corinthians ; ye are the body of christ , ( to wit yee are a particular body ) and members in particular , and so chap. 3. 21. 22. all are yours , whether paul or apollos ( let apolonius note ) or paul , or cephas , or life , or death , all are yovrs ; and ye ( corinthians ) christs , &c. where all are the whole churches , and each churches in particular , as their occasions require ; each in their order ; some vniversal officers which shall have power in corinth , or any other church ; some particular to each church . so that the sence i● , he hath given or set in the church : i. e. in this church of corinth , and so in that of ephesus , &c. some apostles , &c. as their need shall require : yet not therefore making them one externall societie ( among themselves ) as some generall officers make not england and scotland one kingdome . 2. if we take the word apostle , as it is taken in some other places , * and so may be taken here , for such officers as were sent out with commission from any church upon speciall occasion , ( which is the literall signification of the word ) and is so taken 2 cor. 8. 23. barnabas and the rest , are called the apostles of the churches : and phil. 2. 25. epaphroditus the apostle of the philippians : according to which ; the sence would bee ; god hath set some of corinth in the office of apostles , some prophets , as chap. 14. &c. and so the argument hence were voided . but 4. were it granted that the apostle in these places meanes by the church , the church visible catholicke : yet this opinion gaines nothing thereby ; for it doth not follow that because it was so then , and in respect of the apostles , that therefore it was to be so to the end of the world , and in it selfe . christ who is the king of his church hath the same liberty in his kingdome speciall ; that god hath over the world , which is his kingdome general : now at one time the lord would have the whole world almost , one kingdome or monarchy under nebuchadnezar , jer. 27. 8. and threatneth with heavy plagues that nation that should refuse to serve him ; giving this reason , that himselfe is king of all nations , vers. 5. which is also repeated again , dan. 4. 22. so that the whole world was one kingdome upon the matter ; yet it was not the will of god it should alwaies bee so . in the like manner in moses , the church and common wealth affaires were chiefly under the magistrate ; but afterward they were distinct , unlesse under those kings that were prophets also . so the twelve tribes were under saul , david and salomon , one kingdome : yet it was of the lord , that afterwards they were two : and afterward one againe , after the captivity . so likewise christ taketh the same power over his church , when hee saw it , for the advantage of it ; hee set over it one company of officers , who ruled it in common , viz. the apostles , in relation to whom , the churches were one , though not in themselves ; but that doth not argue that hee meant it should alwaies so continue after their decease . it is a generall rule in all proceedings , that things at their first plantation and beginning need some things that afterward would be inconvenient , as a stick by a twigge , a bladder to him that swimmeth , a standing-stole to a childe . so at the first constitution of the jewish church , god made moses an extraordinary officer , so that hee had no successor so absolute till christs time . so at the first erection of the christian church , apostles and evangelists , which now are generally apprehended to be ceased . yea also in scotland , ( as we heard above ) at the beginning of their reformation , they had certaine officers in the nature of bishops , whom they called visitors , which the authour informes us were then necessary ; but the church being setled , not now any longer needfull . 2. nor were the churches one in themselves , ( as we said before ) but one in the apostles , and that by accident also ) as england and scotland are one in the king , because he governs both ; but they are not therefore one kingdome in themselves considered . but 3. though wee grant this , that whiles the apostles were living , there was one body of officers over the whole church , and so in respect of them the church might bee said to bee one governed body , yet i say , it was never one governing body ; for whiles the apostles lived , the vniversall governing power was committed to the apostles onely , and not with them to any other officers , or churches ; no and not to all the churches together , but they with their officers were all in subjection to them : and when the apostles deceased , the scripture speaks nothing of instating any other collected and vnited body to succeed them in that vniversall government ; no nor can it be gathered by consequence : but the contrary , namely ; that because the use of that vniversall power ceased , therefore the office , officers and subject of it . object . but church government did not cease . answ. that kinde or way , of church government did , that is an vniversall one ; but there continued the government still , though administered in another way , viz. by way of distribution , each church as a church , ( i. e. as having the essentiall notes of a church in it , viz. the true doctrine , or faith of christ ) received that power for it self , though not in so eminent a degree , yet as immediately from christ , that all the apostles had for all churches . 6. but i may deny the former supposition , and rightly affirme that the apostles were not one joynt ministery : for besides , that each had entire power ; some had one part committed to them , and some another , as paul expressly affirmeth , gal. 2. 8. the uncircumcision was committed to me , the circumcision to peter . hence chap. 1. he saith , he went not up to hierusalem , to those that were apostles before him ; which he ought to have done , if the government had beene committed to the apostles joyntly , and not severally ; whence also his going up thither , act. 15. about the question of circumcision , was not on this ground ; but to satisfie the christians of antioch , about his doctrine , as consonant to that of the other apostles . on the former principle , he professeth ( 2 cor. 10. 13. &c. ) he had not intruded into another mans line ; alluding , as it seems to the shareing out of inheritances by line , ( as psal. 16. 6. ) for this reason , the epistles of peter , iames and iohn are called catholicke , because written to the dispersed iewes throughout the severall nations , as is the expression in the entrance of those epistles . hence also paul is sent from ierusalem as not his place , act. 22. 18. and though sometimes he disputed with the jews , yet it was but as making way to the gentiles , neither did hee greatly prevaile with them , as appears , act. 13. 40. 41. chap. 28. 16. 7. to conclude therefore , our reply to this argument , if it follow not , when we say , god hath set in the world some emperours , some kings , some princes , some inferiour officers and magistrates : therefore the whole world is but one governing kingdome , and all particular kingdomes do but governe in the right of the kingdome of the world , in common ; the officers whereof are the kings of the severall kingdomes , who being gathered together , or a part of them , have the povver of giving lavves to other kingdomes , according to the lavv of god and nature , ( which are the rules of all just government ) and this also to bee done by the kings and princes themselves , vvithout any authority from , or any dependency on the people , ( unlesse for quietnes sake , and as far as they see cause : ) if ( as was said ) this follow not : neither doth it follow , that because the scripture saith , god hath set some in the church apostles , &c. therefore the church throughout the world is but one congregation , to whose officers first , as the generall officers of the whole church , not by way of distribution , but as a notionally ( at least ) collected body of officers : the power of government is committed : by authoritie whereof , and dependence upon which common officers and body , the officers of every particular church do act : and those without any dependency upon the concurrence of the people , as co-operating and acting with them , unlesse for peace sake . by which means ( let it be observed by all sorts , the power being given , not to any one church , but to the whole church , as one body ; and not to the members with the officers , but to the officers onely ) there is derived a very transcendent power and authoritie upon every particular minister ; more then any parliament-man hath , yea more then a king , ( who is limited to his dominion ) it makes every minister one of the standing officers of the christian world , to whom with his collegues ( not severally and by distribution , but joyntly , and as one body ) is committed the government of the whole christian world , and managing of the affaires of the son of god throughout the face of the earth . and so hee is one of christs vicars generall , ( and not particular onely , which i acknowledge every minister to be in his place ) magnum surely , et memorabile nomen . but if this bee so , great reason is it that the church of the whole world should choose these vniversall officers , and so the church of a nation the nationall officers , &c. by whom they are to be governed in that which is of dearest and highest moment , viz. the precious soule : or else their condition is most sad . if every one that can get a little learning and desires to live upon the sweat and cost of others ; and to become a minister ( though i professe that calling to be most difficult on earth ; and also , that the lord hath appointed that those that preach the gospel should live of the gospel ) and so being willing to submit to such conditions as is required , shall have a friend , patron , or a purse to make one ; and come into the ministery and a living ( which is the kings road , in some churches , and is the way whereby many of those who now are to be presbyters came in ) he shall become a parliament man , and joynt governour of the whole church on earth ; by whose one vote , all the liberties and truth of religion in them may be destroyed : a glympe whereof we have seen in the convocations or synods in our owne nation . this i say is sad ; yea more sad then the condition of men in their civil liberties in our owne kingdom : where none attains the honour of being an universal officer , a parliament man , but by the consent ( formal or virtual ) of all , or the major part of them : there having been a precedent act by joynt consent of the whole nation , that persons chosen by the free vote of the major part of corporations &c. should ( if loyal ) be officers pro tempore , to their owne corporations , and to the whole . but such agreement hath not been made , ( no not tacitely ) by the catholick church ; nor no such institution of christ hath appeared yet . and these answers also are applyable to what the same author hath else where from the word chvrch , as when he denieth a particular church to be the proper subject of the covenant of grace , and priviledges of it ; because saith he , the chvrch to which these promises are made , is perpetual . jer. 31. 36. the strength of which reasoning lies on this , that the word church , and not churches , is used in these places ; and so it is represented as one . answ. as if it were not common to call that perpetual which is so by succession of those of the like nature and kinde ; because the lord saith day and night shall not cease to the worlds end ; doth it therefore follow that all the essential properties of day or night do not agree to this or that particular day ? is it not a rule in nature and reason , that all the essential properties of general and common beings , are really existent in the individual and partilars . man is to continue on earth to the end of the world , does not therefore the essential properties of man agree to peter or paul , because they were not to continue . his second and third argument there , is ; that a particular church cannot be the subject of the covenant of grace : and consequently of church power ( for the reason is the same ) because the church which hath these is sanctified , is the spouse of christ , hath the law written in the heart of it : &c. but a particular church [ as it is particular ] cannot be said to be such . answ. but 1. it was never said that one particular church is so the subject of these , as that another is not . secondly , to speak properly , the church not as visible , nor as particular , nor as invisible , nor as universal , is the subject of these things , but as a church ; i. e. a society of beleevers : and under that nation , a particular church considered as a church , hath right to all , and is the subject of all these . all are yours , saith the apostle to the corinthians , whether paul or christ . &c. so that this author by adding this clause [ as particular ] hath praevaricated and altered the state of the question . his last argument in that place , is from the testimony of the professors of leyden , and amesius . to which i answer , that the former say nothing ; but , that the covenant , and promises , and priviledges , belong to true beleevers , and the invisible church , whether in a [ particular church ] or dispersed through the world . so that this testimony seems rather to make against him . the other is expresly against him , and speaks our very sense , yea and terms almost insomuch that i wonder this author is brought in as a witnesse : his words are , even as they are cited by apollonius himself : these things agree not to the whole multitude that professe christ , but onely to those that are truly faithful : or they agree to the church militant , in respect of its essential nature , which is proper to the truly faithful . so then , not to a church as vniversal or particular , as visible or invisible , but as essentially a church , which a particular church may be . and the former replies also will serve unto what the other authors urge from such like scriptures and places : as 1. m. hudson from act. 8. 3. saul made havock of the church , gal. 1. 13. i persecuted the church , 1 cor. 10. 32. give none offence to the church of god . 1 cor. 12. 28. god hath set some in the church . 1 tim. 3. 15. that thou mayest know how to behave thy self in the church of god . also when it is called the kingdom of god , a barne , a draw-net , a marriage : and because 1. cor. 12. the church is said to be one body , and one woman , apoc. 12. one sheepfold , john 10. one dove , cant. 2. 2. all which ▪ and other places wherein the word church is used , are to be understood , as hath been evidenced , either of the church in respect of the nature and essence of it : as all beleevers and churches have the same kind of faith , doctrine , &c. or else as one mystical and invisible body of christ : but doth not at all insinuate , much lesse prove : that they are all one external and visible corporation . 3. m. noyes who useth the same places of scripture as the other ; as also apoc. 11. 1 , 2 , 3. the church is described as one city , one new jerusalem &c. answ. that place is taken by great expositors , to signifie such a state as is not yet in being ; what it will be when that shall exist , is uncertain . secondly , we grant it to be one city and kingdome as a mysticall body : 1. in respect of christ the head . 2. in regard that all churches in their severall places , walke by the same laws &c. i. e. as essentially agreeing together , but not visibly governing as one body . 4. the london ministers part 1. pag. 3. who urge the forenamed place 1 cor. 12. and that the apostle maketh the whole church but one organical body ( a contradiction to their assertion praefat. p. 11. that the church is a similar body ( which overthrows their present tenent ; for in a similar body all the parts together have no more internal power then single ; as in drops of water , single corporations , as single , though united in place . ) so part 2. p. 66. where also they say that eph. 4. 4. christ is considered mystically , not personally ; and if mystically , not visibly . ) answ. first the apostles scope , and then the supposition he goes on , are to be eyed . the scope is to exhort to humility in great gifts , to contentednesse in mean gifts , and to love and edification by all gifts . the supposition he grounds his argument on , is the relation wherein believers stand , viz. of members of one and the same body , s●il . of christ mystically considered ( as the ministers speak ) but he neither expresseth nor implyeth the visibility of this body , or the outward onenesse of it : if he mean the catholick , and not the particular church of corinth . 5. lastly , the reverend assembly ; who in the places above mentioned , quote eph. 4. 3. &c. to which answer hath been given above ; and may again when we come particulary to reply unto them . and thus much in answer to the first argument of apollonius and others drawn from expressions that speake of the church as one : one body , house , kingdome , family , sheepfold , which is indeed the achileum , or fort royall in this garison ; and which , if i be not greatly overseene , hath been , by the former weapons out of christs armory absolutely taken and demolished . the second argument followes which is : there is certaine societie and ecclesiasticall communion by divine institution , and therefore a certain universall body : for there is a certain internall fellowship and obligation to mutuall offices , eph. 4. 3 , 4 , 5 , 6. which doth require an externall and outward society , and commuion ecclesiasticall , in exhorting , reproving , comforting , edifying one another — and that fellowship which the members of a particular church retain among themselves , in a due proportion churches provinciall and nationall ought to keep — by which communion ecclesiasticall , all nationall churches do grow up to one vniversall ecclesiasticall body . ans. this reason no way concludes the intended proposition : i willingly grant there is a mutuall fellowship , and spirituall communion ; which also requires an outward communion in many respects , and particularly , in those named by this author , viz. exhortation , reproof , &c. and indeed , this was all the combination that was in the most primitive churches : and such inward and outward communion there is to bee betwixt all good men , friends , brethren , nations , &c. but this argues not that therefore they must be one body in point of government . neighbour nations are to retain this inward communion , and outward , so farre as may make for mutuall good , and there may bee a society or league betwixt them , as betwixt solomon and the king of aegypt , betwixt solomon and hiram , king of tyre . so men of the same trade and profession in regard of the same art , have an internall communion together , and this requires some outward communion also , as occasion serves ; but it no way concludes , that therefore they must needs be one body or corporation ; suppose some dwell at london , some at yorke , some in england , and some in france . 2. it is also granted , that the same vnion that the members of a church have one with another , the same have the severall churches among themselves , in a dve proportion , which are the words of the author ; but this proportion is not identitie , or samenesse of relation ; that is , it is not so neer a relation , nor gives that power that the former relation doth . as the same relation that the members of a family have one unto another ; the same in a due proportion have particular families one to another ; but no man will say that what the members of a family , especially some of them , may doe one to another ; the same may a corpoporation of families do among themselves , there is some neernesse , but not altogether the same . and this also is sufficient for the second argument . i shall meet with it again anon in the first argument of the reverend assembly . the third . there were certaine meetings in the new testament which did represent the whole church , and wherein the businesse of the whole church was transacted , to wit , the calling of an apostle ; which was a part of ecclesiasticall discipline : and there were the pastors of the universal church , for they were sent unto all the world , matth. 21. 19. and therewere the brethren out of galilee and jerusalem . answ. 1. i deny ( with the protestant divines against the papists ) that there is any representative church properly so called , or that this was one ; it was onely at present a particular congregation whereof the apostles were members , though principall ones , but not yet actually instituted officers , neither of this , or the whole church , which appears vers 4. 8. tarry ye ( saith he ) in jerusalem till you have received power from on high . but it was indeed that first church from whence all churches were to be produced , and the apostles ( especially ) and the rest of these members were those , who were severally or joyntly to plant those churches ( for some members of this church did plant other churches , and not the apostles onely , as is expressed chap 8. ) as one man that is father by generation of many families ; neither is an universal man , nor doth ever represent them ; neither is he the governour alwaies of them , but for a certain time onely . 2. if it were the representative of the universal church , because the apostles , the universal officers were there ; yet it was their priviledge , as was shewed above , to be the universal officers , and that severally ; so that though the churches were one body under one number of officers then ; yet they having no successors in the latitude of their power , the church now becomes many : else you may as well conclude , that all the world must still be one under one sort of governours , because it was so in the time of adam and noah . 3. this act declares very small power in the apostles or universal church ; for they could not make an universal officer ; whereas every particular church can make its particular officers : and this shews there was then no catholick government , properly such , but that was reserved to christ alone . 4. if it conclude ; it argues , that the catholick church is formally to chuse its catholick officers ( for so they did ) and to come together for that purpose . 5. it puts the brethren into great liberty and priviledge , for they choose , and the apostles onely put them upon the work , and prayed over it . but to avoid this , else-where labour is used to prove that here were onely the apostles or elders in this election : quid non mortalia pectora cogis ( regni ) sacra fames . the second argument there , is , that the businesse of the universal church was transacted , scil. the election of an apostle . answ. adam did represent all mankinde , and transacted the affairs and businesse of the universal catholick world , both before and after his fall : so likewise noah and his family after the flood , gen. 8. doth it therefore follow that the whole world should be but one kingdom or corporation . it is usual for kingdoms to send out colonies into forraigne parts , and to give them power to become common-wealths of themselves , without dependence , unlesse voluntary , upon that kingdom from whence they had their original , as new-england . so fathers of families yeild their sons an entire governement in their owne families , without necessarily engageing them to the families of their brethren , further then mutuall love and relations shall require . but before the colonies be sent out , the nation from whence they arise , doth represent and transact the businesse both of themselves , and of all those colonies : and the father of the families both represents and transacts the businesse of the families that spring from him : yet are both the one and other afterward , without any absolute and necessary dependence either upon the one or other . so in the matter of christs church . the church of jerusalem was as it were the mother to the rest ; the apostles &c. spiritual fathers , who represented and transacted the affairs of all churches that should flow from that ; but so , that when such churches came to be planted , they shewed by their practise that the apostles had instated them in entyre power , without any necessary dependence on other churches , whether single or combined , as is evident out of the first and second chapters of the revelation , noted before , and other places . 3. the third particular is of little moment : for the brethren that are called galileans , vers. 11. were so by countrey ; but now were by habitation and dwelling , in all probability of hierusalem . and howsoever , the thing is not much material , seeing there was then no other church or societie of christians visible , but that at hierusalem . besides , the former answers take off this also . and thus the first scripture , viz. from act. 1. is answered . the second followes out of act. 15. 22. where that assembly of apostles , elders and brethren , which by ordinary power prescribed , ecclesiasticall cannons and decrees to all the churches of the gentiles , and by authority imposed them on them ▪ this assembly is called the church ; but to doe so could not bee in the power of any provinciall or nationall assembly ▪ much lesse of a congregationall , but it is the act of the catholique church , which therefore this assembly represented . answ . 1. the former answers touching the prerogative of the apostles , and of the mother church , are equally applyable to this also . 2. it is not called the church indefinitely , but with reference to that place scil. of hierusalem , as by the context appeares , for vers. 22. 't is said , it seems good to the church to send chosen men of their own company ; but the whole assembly as constituted of the church of hierusalem , and the messengers of antioch , &c. is not called the church . 3. it was not then the representative of the catholick church , as it was in the first chapter ; there beeing now other churches planted , which were not there by their messengers . neither was the colledge of the apostles there , the standing and supreme court of the catholick church , to which all churches were to appeale , and to whose judgement they were to stand ; but every one of the apostles in the churches they planted . for paul as he went not up to hierusalem himselfe at first ( as was noted above and therefore could not teach the churches any such duty of necessity binding them ) so neither did he now either himselfe or others therefore go up from antioch to hierusalem , as if he had not plenary and full power to have determined the controversie ; but for satisfaction of the brethren ; who either were told by those that came from hierusalem , ( as it seems by what the apostles wrote in their letter , vers. 24. to whom we gave no such commandement : implying that those persons had given out that they had such command from the apostles ) or else they desired the mind of the other ▪ apostles also for further confirmation ; therefore doth paul goe up . also in divers of his epistles , hee joynes timothy , sylvanus and sosthenes , &c. with himself ; yea , and all the brethren , gal. 1. 1. as here the apostles joyned the elders and brethren ; yet these examples doe not argue that the apostle , or the apostles had not absolute power of themselves to have determined the controversie . 4. it is denyed that this assembly did act by an ordinary power ; for if the apostles presence made not the assembly extraordinary : then was it but an ordinary and particular church , or two , or three partcular churches at the most ; ( there being many other churches then planted , who had no elders there , nor were sent to , so farre as is related , ) and then it will fall out , either that they did conclude and injoyne onely doctrinally , ( though with authority ) or else that a particular and ordinary church , or two or three churches by ordinary power may prescribe , and by authoritie injoyne lawes to all churches in the world , by way of jurisdiction . it will not be easie to get safe from betwixt the hornes of this argument . 5. but it will not prejudice me to yeeld it an ordinary assembly , for it is granted to any assembly of one church or more , to do as much as is here expressed this councell to have done , viz. 1. to meet for the discussion of any doctrine that afflicts the churches , especially if they bee sent unto as these were . 2. to conferre scriptures together which concerns those points . 3. light appearing by the spirit of god and scripture , they may represent their results , as the will of god , and minde of the holy ghost , and so may 4. ministerially impose and enjoyn to all other churches what appears to be the clear mind of christ , as paul did , 1 cor. 7. having no expresse command : and as any of our brethren do when they preach the word : do they not injoyne obedience in the name of christ ? but withall they disclaim having sole jurisdiction , so as to excommunicate any alone by themselves , if they obey not : and yet they do the former by authority , because the ministery of the word is an ordinance of god . object . but it was an assembly representing the catholick church because of the apostles , who were the catholick officers , and the whole acted by the ordinary power of the catholick church . answ. 1. the reason overthrowes the argument : for if it was therefore an assembly of the catholick church , because of the presence of the apostles . then if the apostles had been absent , it had been but the assembly of a particular church . and the apostles when assembled alone , had made an assembly of the catholick church . so the universality or catholicisme of the assembly , depended wholely and solely on the apostles . or else secondly , the apostles if alone out of this assembly , neither severally nor joyntly , should have been able to determine and do what was here done . or else thirdly , the apostles in this assembly did denude and strip themselves of their apostolical power ( or at least suspend it it for that time ) and acted onely as ordinary elders of the catholick church : but then it would follow , either , that that particular church of jerusalem was the catholick church ( as rome is said to be ) for there were messengers from few ( if from more then one ) other churches : or that the apostles though laying aside their being elders of the universal church , ( for that was their apostleship ) did yet act as elders of the universal church : all which are ( {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , ) crasse interferings . i thinke this church acted 1. as the mother church . 2. as having an accesse of authority by the presence of the apostles . 3. as being the church from which the scandal enquired about , was conceived to arise . neither doth the joyning of the elders and brethren wholy take off the eminency and authority of the apostles above the rest ( for their speeches onely are recorded ) no more then paul's joyning others with him in his epistles : though it do argue , that the church of antioch had not that esteem of them as infallible alone . and thus much also for that other place brought for confirmation of the third argument , [ a representative catholick church in scripture . ] the fourth and last argument is from the testimony of some reformed divines ; viz. walaeus , and the professors of leydon . but the first speaks nothing for him but what all acknowledge , and was granted above . scil. the church saith he , may be considered two waies . 1. vniversally , for the church which by the preaching of the gospel is called out of the world , throughout the world , which in a certain sense , or in some respect , may even be called catholick : or for a particular flock , tyed unto one place . in which sense i know none denie a catholick church ; it being one of the articles of the ordinary creed , that there is a catholick church , that is ; that the church is now no longer bound to any one place , as under the jewish government . but that the church in respect of the several members and societies of it , is dispersed over the face of the earth . but this doth no more conclude that therefore they are one visible corporation , then when we say ; mankinde is spread over all the world , that therefore all men are one company or body politick . 2. the professors of leyden are against him ; for they distinguish betweene a visible and particular church , and betweene the invisible and universal : and say , that a visible church is considered two waies , 1. as a company or society of one towne , city , or province , which are united not onely in the unity of faith and sacraments , but also in the [ forme of outward government ] or else it is considered as a certain oecumenical and vniversal body , dispersed in several places throughout the whole world ; although they differ in the externall forme it selfe of chvrch-governement and circumstantial rites very much : yet agreeing in the essential vnity of faith , and of the sacraments . whence that is common in cyprian : episcopatus unus est , cujus à singulis in solidum pars tenetur . w●ich words evidently destroy this opinion . for first they make the essentialunion or forme of the society and onenesse of the church , to consist in the onenesse of faith and sacraments . secondly , they imply , that government is one as it is in christ , but divers as it is in severall churches , and in the hands of severall officers ; for so calvine ( in ephes. 4. 11. ) expounds that of cyprian : the episcopacie he gives to christ alone , in the administring whereof , every one hath his part . thirdly , and ( which chiefly assaulteth the heart of the cause for which it is brought by this author ) they make the very difference betwixt the universal church and a particular church to be this , that they disagree in the outward or visible forme of church-government ; therefore in the sense of the professors of leyden , the vniversal church is not one governing body , for then the government must be one , not only in essence , nature , and kinde , but one in number , existence , single and indivual being . and thus much for answer in particular to apollonius , who indeed hath the substance of what hath been said for this opinion : others that follow , having taken his grounds , and dilated them a little but not much strengthened them thereby , as will appear in the sequele . 2. the next defendant of this opinion is m. hudson , cited in the first chapter : his sense is the same , his words and expressions not so distinct as the former . before i come to his arguments ( such as seem to differ from those before ) 1. note that the scripture he brings to signifie the whole company of the * elect , are the same in sense with those which he brings to signifie one * visible vniversal body : and so are they expounded ( as i have done ) by the best interpreters , even those he makes use of . his first place is eph. 5. 26. christ loved the church , and gave himself for it , &c. this ( saith he ) is to be understood of the elect. so also saith beza , but beza parallels and make the same in sense with it 1 cor. 12. 12. 27. eph. 1. 22. and eph. 4. 15. 16. as is to be seen in his larger notes on m. hudsons second place cited for this church of the elect , viz. coloss. 1. 18. which place * calvin understands of the church as it is governed by christ : so that these places , if they be to be understood of the mystical body of christ , and not of a visible vniversal body , then so are the other in the judgement of those interpreters . besides * calvin on that place whereon m. hudson and the rest build their greatest strength , 1 cor. 12. 12. 27. doth evidently make the body and corporation , whereof beleevers are members , to be a spiritual and mystical one , and doth so distinguish it from the society and corporation they have as a politick or a civil body of a towne or city . 2. this authors definition doth not reach the subject of his question , but contains what is of all hands confessed , it is this . the vniversal visible church is the whole company of visible beleevers throughout the world . thirdly , he brings the description of the church visible out of several authors ; none of which ( not austins , nor calvins , nor bullingers , nor kekermans , nor zuinglius his , nor gerards , nor byfields , who all take vniversal in the sense now described , and not as m. hudson . ) but one or two speak to the question : viz. apollonius , and perhaps p. ramus : the former of which was pre-ingaged ; and touching the latter , i referre the reader to m. beza's judgement of him , and that ( as it seems ) with reference to this opinion . — predixi , quod in caeteris disciplinis-ausus esset , mox etiam in theologia tentaturum — quid non ille ante mortem molitus est , ut & in dogmatibus quibusdam , & in tota ecclesiastica disciplinâ gallicas ecclesias inter se committeret — vtinam ipsius scripta periissent , quandoquidem haec est mundi insania . bezae epist. ad vrsinum in organ . aristot . 4. he acknowledges among other authors * ames to be against him , and yet in the very * next page , cites him as for him . 5. yet those words of this author which he cites , speak nothing for him , if compared with the authors meaning : they are : we acknowledge a catholick visible church in respect of its external and accidental forme , in its parts ( or members ) both severally and joyntly . which is no more but this ; that christians as they are single men , and as they are combined into particular churches , are visible . but m. hudson might have known or remembred , that m. ames doth expresly , and in terminis , reject an universal visible church in m. hudsons sense : his words elsewhere are : the church since christs coming is not one catholiqve , so as that all the faithfull dispersed throughout the whole world should be united in one and the same bond for outward relation ) and depend upon one and the same visible pastor , or assembly of pastors ( or presbyterie , marke it : ) but there are so many churches as there are particular congregations . for although the church mystical , as it is in its members is distinguished into its subject and adjuncts , as the english church , the french , the belgick : as we use to call the sea by the name of the coast it beats upon , as the brittish , the belgick , the baltick sea , although it be one and the same sea : yet notwithstanding instituted churches are several distinct species , or kindes , or single bodies partaking of the same common nature , as severall springs , several schools , several families ; although perhaps many of them , or all , may be called one church in respect of some affection which they all have in commune . like as many families of one and the same noble and eminent family , are called by one name , as the house of nassau , or the house of austria , which comprehends the emperour and king of spain , who yet have no dependence in point of government one on another . now wee know who taxes some-body for this fault , of citeing authors for them , who are known to be in the main , against them . 6. his explication of his question both confutes his opinion , and also contradicteth plainly what he speaks of it . for he saith , that the church catholicke visible is one whole body , all whose parts or particular churches are alike , and of the same nature : and avouches for this purpose the authority of ames ▪ who indeed saith so . now in a body all whose parts are of like nature and quality , as so many drops of water , or stones in a heap : each part hath the same vertue and power that the whole , and all the parts together , ( the whole sea , or whole heape of stones ) have no other kinde of vertue or power then one drop , or one stone . or to make it cleer by another similitude , severall kingdomes in the world , and severall corporations in a kingdom , and severall families in corporation , if they bee all but members alike of the same kingdome , and not of a higher body , whereof when they are met , they may be members , ( as kingdomes of an empire , corporations of a parliament , families of a corporation , ) they should have no more nor greater power when met , then when assunder ? as a multitude of single men , that are not of a corporation , though they bee met ; yet have they not the more power then each one simply , for their meeting ; their meeting addes no power , unlesse they meet as members of a body superiour to them , when severall . 2. this explication contradicteth expresly what he adds in the same place , ( pag. 21. ) and which is his opinion , that hee would establish , viz. that the church , ( visible catholique ) is an organicall , ministeriall governing body ; that is ; not such a body as is the element of water or ayre , every part whereof is of the same nature , vertue and power in it selfe considered ; but such a body as a man hath , which is distinguished by severall members , some principall , some lesse principall , some governing , as head eyes ; some acting , as hands fee● ; some governed , as the body by the head eyes , &c. and such a body as all corporations are . now this contradicts plainly the former , both opinion and expression ; for if the church be a similar body , and all congregations alike ; and the whole nothing differing in nature or constitution , or power from the parts ; then the catholick vniversall visible church , is no more the governing church , then a particular . as the whole sea is no more water then one drop , nor all men , if they be taken as single men , have no more or higher authority then one man : nor all families then one family : nor all corporations then one corporation . wee see that 't is not one sort of men onely that are obnoxious to contradictions , both verball and reall . besides , the author he seem● to follo● , ( viz. apollonius ) enterprets that place , eph. 4. 16. the whole body fitly joyned together , to be meant of an organicall ministeriall body differing in members ; which mr hudson expounds to be meant of a similar and body whose parts are all alike . wee see here also , that even persons of this opinion cannot agree among themselves , shall wee therefore say they know not what they would have , seeing one would have one thing , another another ? we must then reach out the same ingenuity unto others , differing in like manner , that we stand in need of our selves . about his answers to the objections he brings against his opinion , we may note severall things , as first , in his answer to the 1. objection , he saith , that the dwelling in one towne where there is a church , and being member of another church , is a kinde of dis-churching that church which is in the tovvne where he dwells . but the answer is ready according to his opinion ; for they remaine still of the same integrall body , if the whole church bee but one visible congregation : and so we see what way by this opinion is made to the scattering of particular churches , seeing men may remove , though not in dwelling , yet in relation at pleasure , without danger of schisme ; for they remaine still of the same single ( though larger ) bodie , as a man may dwell in one corporation , and be a member of another , yet he still abides a member of one and the same single kingdome . his 2d . objection is , that if all particular churches bee all one church , they must all meet some times . his answer is , 1. no , it is sufficient that it have the same king , lavves , spirit , &c. but was there ever in the world such a kingdome or corporation , that the members of it do not meet sometimes , if it be not a meere visible monarchy , as under popery . if it have any liberty left to the subjects ▪ they must meet sometimes , at least by their deputies , as the kingdome of england in parliament , the empire of germanie in the states of the empire , &c. his 2d . answer is , that the church catholicke visible , hath met in generall councells , as a ministeriall church ( and mark , it is now ministeriall and heterogeneall , which was before similar and homogeneall ) but this is replyed to above , where was shewed , 1. that the most primitive churches did not so act . 2. that the whole church did not meet in them . 3. that they either acted as a similar body acts in the name of those , and within the churches that sent them each for their owne , and all for all those , whose deputies they were for ought we have learnt yet : or else that they acted much by regall power , as by constantines , in the councell of nice , and others by other emperours : and they acted also in late councels by episcopall , archiepiscopall and patriarchal power , and not as a similar body . 4. if those were the catholick church visible representative : how dare any particular churches at most but ( if ) national , abrogate and sweare against , the ordinances and government established by the catholicke church . let him minde this . againe he saith , the power of a general councel , or of the catholick visible church , is but extensive , and the power of particular churches intensive : but 1. this overthrowes his tenet ; for then the catholicke church hath no more power in it selfe , and properly , but meerely by accident , then a particular church . and 2. this plucks up his second tenet , viz. that this catholick church is the first church , to whom power is given : for if its power be extensive onely , and not inward , it cannot be the first subject of power . the 3d. object . hee moves against himselfe is : a visible catholicke church must have a visible ( catholicke ) head . his 1. answer is , that it is sufficient that christ is the head , though in heaven . but this is altogether an unsufficient answer . for christ is the head invisible , and thence our divines affirme his body the church to be mysticall also and invisible , taken properly . 2. he saith that the church ; in regard of the head , the government of it is absolutely monarchicall , but in regard of the officers it is aristocraticall . but this answers not the objection : for be it monarchicall or aristocraticall ; yet if the body bee one visible corporation , then must the governours of it bee one visible , either person or company of men usually , or at sometimes ordinarily meeting together , or at least to be considered as one body or colledge of men , by whom this body is joyntly and together , ( and not asunder ) to be governed . and this is the force of calvins reason ( on eph. 4. 11. ) though applyed to the papacy . for if wee must bee one visible corporation , there must bee one visible governour , either person or society : which the apostle omitting , in that place where it was necessary to have been mentioned it , if it had beene an ordinance , cannot , saith he , be excused . his 4th . objection is : that if the catholicke church bee one visible body , it must have a visible existence and being , as it is universall and catholicke ; but universalls have no beeing of their owne , but they exist and have their being onely in particular ; as mankinde in generall hath no being a part by it selfe from single men , but hath its being in them onely . his answer is : that all gathered aggregated , or collected bodies do exist and have their beings so . as a heape of stones hath its being only in the particular stones : the water in particular drops : particular churches consist of particular families : and families of particular persons : and an army in the severall brigades , which yet are one , though they should never meet . but this reply amounts not to an answer . for no collected body that is made up of severall things , hath its being in these things severally considered and apart , but as united altogether ; it is not a heape of stones if one lye at yorke , some at london , others in france , spaine &c. so a church is not a church , or one companie as the families are severall but as met together in one assembly ; and so an army ; brigades may be sent out of it , but if that part were never united to the army by 1000. miles , nor intended to be , and if they be not governed either by one visible head , or by one visible councell of warre , no man will say they are one army : especially if one be in england and the other in america . do wee not say , the parliament hath had severall armies under severall distinct commanders in cheife , who had no dependence one on another ( as it was a good while after the earle of essex had his comission ) and yet under the command of the parliament , and lawes martiall published by them . so christ from the father by the spirit is the governour of all churches , which churches have no necessary dependence , further then that of mutuall love spirit and law , one on another . his 5th . and last objection is : the catholicke church may bee by persecutions , &c. reduced to one congregation . his answer is : it may be so ; but that in that one congregation there remaines all the essence and priviledges of the catholicke church visible , though it be but one single congregation at present , yea , that it hath then more properly the notion of the catholicke church , then of a particular one , yea , though but of one family , as it was in noah's family in the arke . but we see what straights this large conceipt of the universall visible church doth drive into ; for this implyes what was denyed before , namely , that the church catholick is a species , or lower kinde , and the particular churches the severalls of it : for else confounds vniversall and particular together : making an universall thing reducible to a particular , and this extendible to an universal . 2. how could it bee vniversall , but as containing the essence ; seeing in respect of its visible and present being it is particular . in which sence , every single man is a catholique and vniversal creature , because he containes in him the same essence and nature that is in all men ; and adam should have been so in a special manner , as being the first . 3. a particular thing doth not therefore become an vniversall one because it is first in its kinde and others that are produced from it , particulars . vniversalitie is a notion ( though founded in nature ) not an existing thing , to which any order of actual being can be attributed . 4. if the first in each kinde have all the priviledges of that kind whilest it remaines alone , it shall bee a looser when it hath company , if it then part with them ; unlesse it hath somewhat as good in lieu , which here appears not ; but the contrary . 5. it no way followes that because from one , many of the same kinde may spring , that therefore either this first ( suppose a family ) must have government over them all , or they over it , or over one another , whether joyntly or severally , unlesse they so agree , or there be an institution of one superiour to them all . now how should it appeare there hath been , or ought to bee any such grant here ; seeing there is no such record in scripture ; and besides hath beene the occasion of the rise of papacy , as mr noyes acknowledges . and thus much of the things to bee noted before his arguments . 2. now the arguments themselves follow to bee answered : they are of two sorts , 1. certain places of scripture . 2. one argument from reason . but seeing the former , almost all ; runne upon the word chvrch , set downe indefinitely , they have been replyed to before . his argument is ; if particular churches be visible , then there is an universall visible church , for every particular or part , belongs to some generall and whole ; and such as the particulars are , such the generall : if those be visible , then this also . answ. more ●are should have beene taken , then to use so lax à medium in so weighty an argument , as mr. ● . in the licence , acknowledgeth this to be . but to the matter . there is great difference betweene natural ; and betweene metaphysicall , and ●ivill or politicke bodies . for in a naturall body , all whose parts and members are actually and naturally joyned and united together : the whole is visible because the parts are visible● but in a metaphysicall body , or totum , or whole : that is , in generalls that are , by the reason of man drawne from particulars , the case is farre otherwise , the particulars are visible , the generall or universall invisible : peter , iames and iohn , are visible , but manhood or mans nature ( animal rationale ) which is the vniversall agreeing to them all , is not visible : it is not to bee seene with the eye . so also in civil bodies or corporations , though the severall men may be seene , yet the corporation if great , ( an empire , kingdome , and large cittie ) cannot be seene , in it selfe : but in the parts , unlesse by way of representation , as in parliament , common-councell , &c. but 2 ▪ the whole is visible because the parts are so ; it is untrue , even in the smallest bodies , but where the parts are actually united and joyned together ; not where they are thousands of miles asunder : such a body ( as a body ) cannot bee seene with the eye , but it may be conceived , to be one in the minde , by vertue of some agreement or other betwixt the members of it , or of its union in some visible head ; but it is visible onely in respect of the severall parts of it . now in this sence , none denies the universall church to be visible : that is , that all christians , who are one in respect of their religion they professe , are visible in the severall places where they dwell . but this is to prevaricate , and to prove that which is not in question . so that this reason is not so much as probable ▪ if it bee taken in the former sence ; much lesse any necessary concluding argument , and least of all a demonstration ( which was promised by the authour . ) and in the other sence ▪ it is besides the questio● . and thus much for mr hu●son's first question , viz. ●ha● there is a catholique visible church . his 2d . is : that this church is the first subject of ecclesiastique power ▪ but because the proofs are much from the same places of scripture which are answered above , and the reasoning wholly on the same foundation : viz. that ●ivers things are spoken of the church which cannot agree to a particular church as particular , which also was replyed to before ; i shall not after too large a discourse already , adde any more here , nor shall i need : for if i have acquitted my selfe in the former discourse , in opposition to the notion of one universall visible church or corporation ; i neede not contend whether it be the first subject of church power ; for it having no actuall being and existence at all , it cannot be the subject of any power or act , ( as non entis nulla sunt attributa ; so , non existentis nullae sunt operationes ) onely the reader may observe , that the root of all the mistake in the former , this authour and the rest , about these questions is : ●ither the not distinguishing the nature and essence of the church ( in which respect it hath the names and things they urge , given to it ) from the relations of vniversall and particular ; which are notions , and accidentall to it : and confounding the essence , and existence , the nature and the actuall being of the church together ; applying that to the particular being ; as particular ; which is spoken of them , being particular , but in respect of the common essence and nature , not as particular . or 2. not differencing betwixt the mystical● and visible state of it ; much being said in the former respect , which they apply to the latter . the third defendant , or rather assaylant , is the reverend assembly of divines ; their assertion is : the whole church is but one made up of the collection and aggregation of all who are called out of the world by the preaching of the word to professe the faith of christ in the unity thereof : their first argument ( implyed ) is this : from this union there ariseth unto every one such a relation unto ▪ and dependence upon the catholique church , as parts have to the whole , and are to doe all christian duties , as parts conjoyned unto the vvhole , and members of the same ( that must be single ) common vvealth and corporation . answ. such is the advantage of truth , that the greatest abilities grow weak when they dash against it . 't is sensible in this argument and authors of it . for it doth not at all follow , that every company of men that in some respect have an union together , and in that respect may be conceived as one whole brotherhood or fellowship , should ▪ herefore be one common-wealth or corporation . for as was said before : the brethren or families of the same first parent ( suppose of the house of essex , manchester , or fairfax ) have an union of blood together , and in that respect are called the house in the singular number ( not the houses ) of such a family : from which union there ariseth to every one of that house , such a relation unto , and dependence upon the house or family in general , as parts have to the whole , and are to do all such brotherly duties , as parts conjoyned to the whole : yet doth it not hence follow that all these persons and their families ( which possibly may be many ) are therefore one corporation . the same might more evidently be illustrated by the whole race of mankinde , who are one in nature , one in parent , one in office general ( the government of the world and worship of god ) one in the common laws of nature ; one in the principal governour : god is the king of all the earth &c. and from this union , there ariseth unto every man such a relation unto , and dependence upon the catholick world , or mankinde in general , as parts have to the whole , and are to do all humane duties , as parts conjoyned to the whole of mankinde : hence the philosopher , when rebuked for giving an almes to a needy , but naughty fellow , replyed : i give it ( {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) not to the man , but to mankinde : yet how will would the honourable assembly of parliament take this consequence from the reverend assembly of divines ; if therefore they should conclude ; that all the men in the world are but one common-wealth and corporation : for then , as the former assertion , of the onenesse of the visible church , hath made them schismaticks in the church , and such also as have sworn to be so : in like manner this inference would represent them seditious in the world in the same degree , and with them , all particular churches , kings , and kingdoms likewise . object . but they say , that the union of the church is neerer , and the relation closer , and obligation strickter betwixt the members of the church , then betwixt the persons of men , because it is spiritual and heavenly . to which is answered 1. that the relation and union seems to be equally neer and close in their several kindes : men as men , are as much , and have as neer an union , and are as much engaged one to another , christians , as christians ; and churches , as churches ; though the relation of christians is more noble and excellent ; and the motives stronger . as beasts are as much one in their kind as men , though the nature of man be more excellent . 2. but be the relation of christians yet closer ; yet that is in spirit , faith , mystical vnion , &c. not outward and visible further then to carry on the invisible , according to the institution of christ : but neither this , nor the former , is by this notion countenanced , but the contrary , as hath been evidenced . there may be a society in faith , as there was in many parts and persons where there was no onenesse in government : job was not alone in the world , some other church god then had ; and so he was one in the faith , and profession , and kinde of church administration with them ; but not united in one body of ou●ward government . the place alledged for strengthning this argument , viz. eph. 4. 3 , to 14 , hath been ansvvered above ; and implies no more but an essential or mystical union ; which necessarily implyeth an outward one in all duties in respect of the substance onely , not the subject of them ; but prudentially and occasionally : such an union integrally ( per modum suppositi , & subjecti ) and by way of onenesse in a visible way of joynt government ; as shall be expedient for edification ; which ordinarily is best promoted , within such a society as may ( at least upon occasion ) meet together in one place ; or howsoever live together in some neernesse at least . which is the more evident ; because the largest churches mentioned in scripture did so , as the jewish church : ( all whose males met thrice a year at one place ; and whose whole territorie or land was but small , scarce the fourth part of england : and therefore might the better be one entire congregation or church : but had they lived some at one end of the world , some at the other , as christians do ; there is no likelyhood they should have been one church integral ) and as the christians in jerusalem , and in other cities ; at the first plantation of the gospel . the second argument : all the ministers and officers of the church are given to the vvhole church . answ. all the magistrates and officers of the world are given to the whole world for the governing of it ; but not to the world conjunctim , and as one single common-wealth or corporation made up of several corporations and common-wealths ; but divisim in respect of the several corporations and common-wealths . the places alledged for proof , 1 cor. 12. 28. eph. 4. 11. are answered above , whither we refer the reader . the third argument is drawn from the third , fourth , and fifth supposition ( page 48 ) when the church was no more then could meet in one place , the officers governed them as one undivided body respectively : but their number increasing , so as they could not meet altogether , they divided into severall companies , which are in scripture called churches : ( to some one of which every beleever is bound to joyne himselfe ) but these severall churches should not act or worke as if they were independent corporations , but onely as parts of christs body , and are all to regard the common good of the whole , eph. 4. 1. &c. and for that end are as much bound ( if it may be ) to associate ( into presbyteries , &c. as particular men and families into churches , there being as much need of the one as of the other : and so as many men or families make but one particular visible church ; so all particular churches by this association make but one catholick visible church ministerial , and governing of right all the rest . answ . god and christ have disposed and ordered the government of the world , and the church according to the severall conditions whereinto the providence of the one and the other hath determined to bring them . when wee are children , god hath appointed one kinde of government for us , viz. to be under tutors and governours until the time of age , and then we are not so : when afterward a man is disposed in marriage , though he have a relation to his parent , yet not a necessary dependence on him in point of government . so whilst a family is but one , it is gouerned as one body , by one or more parents of officers who in point of government are one single body : but as was said , if this family multiply beyond the bounds of that first house , they are not now still to be fancyed to be but one catholick family , to be governed in common . take for instance the family of adam or noah ; the whole world was but then one family , and governed by one man &c. shall we need to repeat the absurdity of the consequence , if therefore we should conclude , that the severall kingdoms and nations are not therefore to act as independent corporations ; but as parts of the body politick of the world which is gods kingdom general . and yet there is a relation betwixt all societies of men , as men , by vertue whereof they are all to regard the common good of mankinde &c. in like manner doth christ in his church : when beleevers are babes , he would have them the more absolutely to subject themselves to their spiritual parents : when growne up they have a greater freedom , and are to be otherwise governed : the apostle bids timothy not to rebuke an elder , but to intreat them as fathers , &c. so when the whole church was but one company , they were governed as such , and by one company of officers that had charge over them all , and every one particularly , according to their several offices : as the pastors to teach every one ; the rulers to watch over every one ; the deacons to provide for every one &c. but this family of the second adam , and second noah ( as peter implies him to be ) spreading into many particular families , and nations : the scripture never ( i say never ) represents them as one visible body in respect of their outward association and government , but still speaks of them as many : the churches of judea , which yet under the legal government was but one ( the church act. 7. ) pray , why this difference of speech ; but to confute this onenesse visible of all churches ? when they are called the church , it reflects upon them as one in faith , spirit , kind of worship and government , as the place alledged eph. 4. 1. plainly expresses . and yet i denie not that these particular churches are to have a regard to the common good of all churches , and not to act as if they were in relation to none but themselves ; and for this end also it is convenient and sometimes necessary , if it may be done , to associate with other churches for mutual assistance , and to meet in synods and councels together , as did the church of antioch and jerusalem , and the churches in the primitive times . the kingdom of england , and so other nations are bound in some cases , to associate with other kingdoms , and are actually associated with them , as also was solomon with the king of aegypt , and hiram king of tyre : but is england not to act as an independent kingdom ; from france , spain , scotland , or the kingdom of israel , or independent ( saving the articles of association ) for all * that . they add in the same place as a prevention of an objection : that as the mutual consent of particular men and families orderly into churches gives them power and authority , ( ecclesiasticall ) one over another , without destroying the liberty of such persons and families , but helping of it : so also in this association of churches , their mutuall consent orderly regulated , gives them a sufficient call for their elders to exercise their power of elders , ( over the congregations in common ) without impeaching the liberties , &c. but 1. this similitude doth not truely represent these brethrens opinion : who hold that the catholicke visible church is before any particular church : and is the first subject of all church power : and the mother out of which particular churches spring : whereas this similitude makes the particular churches to exist . first as mothers to the universall : this being according to their expression , now nothing else but a collection or aggregation of them . secondly , this seems inconsistent with the former reasoning ; for if by divine right all particular churches are but one universall and generall church or corporation , and all particular men and families : by gods appointment are to associate with some particular church , then have the churches right to this common government , not from any consent , but from gods institution : whether the members or persons consent or consent not : yea , and hence is it that churches and presbyteries may , by our brethrens principles , bee excommunicated : for we may suppose some churches will not consent to such associations . objection if it bee said , this consent grounds the relation to this or that particular church with which they shall associate . i reply , that this removes not the objection ; for in generall they are ingaged unto subjection to the universall church , and the particular church to which they joyne is but a necessary condition , that they may the better bee under the universall discipline . 3. the case is not the same betwixt particular persons , and families joyning into some particular congregation ; and the association of several churches into one body : much lesse of all into one generall common-wealth : for the former instance plainly confutes it . a man or family is ordinarily bound to be of some kingdom , common-wealth , or state ; but it doth not therefore follow that all states or kingdoms must needs be associated together into one general common-wealth : neither is the reason the same . for a whole kingdom , state , or society is better able to defend it self against injuries , and to accomodate it self with necessaries , than a particular person or familie ; and what is wanting may be sufficiently supplyed by meer voluntary , arbitrary , and temporary association in a common-wealth ; which in a family or person is not so . 4. it must not be said by rational men , that 1. all men are bound to associate , and so all churches . 2. they being associated are to be governed ; by others which are more then themselves ; and yet their liberty is not diminished , but strengthned : if the reverend assembly shall say , that their security and safety may possibly bee thereby strengthened , it might in some cases be admitted . but surely , as the liberty of a particular man or family , is not the same before he is bound to others , and afterward , though his safety may be the more , so here . 5. how are we slidden from one integral entire body , flowing from one church at jerusalem &c. to a body made up of voluntary associations . the kingdom of england is one entyre common-wealth or body , corporate of it selfe intrinsecally ( politically : ) the vnited provinces are one by aggregations and voluntary association . but these two reipublicks do greatly differ : now the church general is asserted by the reverend assembly , to be one common-wealth , and body corporate ; to whom as one , yea and as first , before all particular churches : the officers , ordinances , and governement of the church is concredited and committed . of like incompossibility is what is there added for illustration sake , viz. that this joyneing is such as proceeds , ex charitate , ex debito mutuae societatis colendae : as is betweene friends and equalls : non ex debito inferioris conditionis ad praestandum obsequium . as betwixt masters and servants : for what is this ? ( but verba dare , rem auferre . ) the honourable houses of parliament , and assembly of divines , kingdome and churches of england : take their liberty now to reforme the state and church , as they judge agreeable to law , reason , and religion . this opinion by consequence makes this kingdome but a depending member of the vniversall monarchy of the world ; and doth expresly affirme the church or churches in this nation to act but as such in respect of the vniversal church . whence it inevitably and evidently follows ; that they ought to be in actuall association with all the rest of the nations , and churches of the world : these being an hundred times more in number , have power at pleasure to over-vote them , and to governe them : and yet must the parliament , assembly , the nation , and churches of this kingdome : even when actually so overborne , perhaps against their minde , and wills , fancie and coneit themselves as free , and enjoying as much liberty as now they do . may wee not ascend by a predicamentall ladder ( classibus vniversalium . kek. ) must it bee by a transcendent , even to reason it self ? another confirmation of this third argument , is taken from the light of nature : which requires , say these reverend gentlemen , that the meanes for ( the edification of ) particular christians , should be as applyable to whole companies of them ; unlesse gods word hath some where forbidden it . to which i return , 1. that this light of nature should not be too much urged , for it will plead hard for episcopacie and a pope . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , will bussle shrewdly here . 2. that the method of the light of nature is to follow the scriptures in matters of christian religion , and not to move in them where the scriptures stand still , and are silent ; hence i note in the ranging of the arguments of the ministers of london in their divine right of the presbyterie : that they place the light of nature first , which though they do as intending it for the lowest step , yet it is not justifiable to make it any at all in the things of christ ; but where it hath some precedent hint from scripture . 3. the light of nature i have shown before , doth make a difference betwixt the necessity of associating of particular persons , and of common-wealths ( such as the church is said to be , ) and differenceth also the associations of the one and the other : making the former a necessary onenesse and singlenesse of corporation and government ; but the other meerly an arbitrary and temporary friendship . 4. the scripture hath more to forbid all churches to associate into one body vniversal politick ; then it hath that particular churches should be entire body politicks or corporations of themselves ; seeing there is often expresse mention of particular visible governing churches , but none expresly of an universal one . 5. i retort the way of reasoning ; the light of nature teaches there is not the same reason betwixt particular persons , and common-wealths in this particular , and therefore not to bee made all one , unlesse the scripture had commanded it . the last particular which may seem to be ( though not brought here by them for that end ) a confirmation of this tenet , is ( by occasion ) alledged in page 61. from the parallel of the church of christ with the church of the iews , to whom the whole tribe of levi was given as their ministry . 1. as to one body together , when in the wildernesse . 2. to them as one body fixed , and dispersed in canaan . this is replyed to before ; i repeat now , that these being and living together in one small territory ; and meeting all the males three times a yeer in one place , jerusalem ; at one meeting house , the temple : doth not argue the church scattered throughout the world to be therefore one : no more then because one kingdom may be one common-wealth , and have officers in common , therefore , all kingdoms must be one . 2. besides ; this instance engages all the churches to meet at some one place : to have one chief governour besides the elders in common , with such other inconveniences as are usually urged against this parallel . we have done with the arguments ; one passage or two i shall animadvert upon , and ( with due respect ) take my leave . whilest they endeavour to maintain : that it is not left free , but is a duty of every congregation ; to associate with others : they say : all are enjoyned to be of some congregation ; but when they joyn to this rather then to that , the mutual consent between them and the congregation with whom they joyn , is that which immediately gives them that special relation one to another , &c. from which i note : that here is implyed a liberty in particular christians , to joyn to such churches as they shall see cause . if this be so , how is it that the violation of parochial limits is so insisted on ( though oft-times manifestly prejudicial to edification , &c. ) and those who keep not unto their parishes , presented and persecuted ; and those ministers that admit christians of other parishes , resented as the destroyers of particular congregations , and such who ( novo & inaudito exemplo ) gather churches out of churches ? now it will not salve to say , 1. that at the first constitution of parishes there was such voluntary consent : seeing 1. which parishes did so , doth not appear : and secondly , in many , 't is evident they were cast into parishes by those who were lords of those mannors . 3. neither is it rationally probable , that the whole nation to one man did voluntarily receive the gospel it self : seeing fraud and force ( neither of which are voluntary motives ) were the tooles of popery , under which the conversion national was made . 4. and though at first the union of such might be convenient : yet afterward it may become an hinderance . yet am not i for the drawing of any godly , able , and faithful ministers people from him , who is for the substance of reformation , though with many defects in lesser things ▪ nor 2. will it be sufficient to say , that when they choose to dwell in such parishes , that then they consent to be of such a congregation : for we know men do that on civil , and oft-times necessitated grounds , as most convenient for lively-hood ; when yet they are altogether unsatisfied either in the minister or congregation . a 2. passage is p. 62. the several congregations chuse or accept their particular officers , and all the congregation united , choose or accept their common presbyterie : yet page 58. 't is said their office is conferred on them by the church : either then , the common presbyterie is the church when they choose the elders for the several congregations ; for they do but accept of them on the matter ; or else it was not a plain declaration of their mindes , when they said the church chooses ; or else this is inconsistent with the other . the 4th assertor is mr noyes , whose tenet is : that the church of christ on earth , is one integral body visible , and hath power to act in synods and councels unto the end of the world . his 1. argument is : the apostle were members . 2. officers of the catholicke , not any particular church . these are replyed to above . 3. they admitted members into the catholicke church , as the eunuch and cornelius , the jaylor , &c. answ. these persons were admitted into the church or company of those who professe christ ; and were made visible members of that societie and corporation which is invisible ; as the sacraments are said to be visible signes of invisible grace . the church catholique is visible in respect of its severall members and societies or churches ; but not in respect of its whole being , as one corporation . society and corporation , properly so called , differ . all men are one society , but not one corporation : so in the church . now according to nature of the society , are the priviledges : common society hath certain common rights : proper societies have peculiar ones . now the church in generall is a society to all the members , of which there belong certain common rights and priviledges ; as spirituall food , the word sacraments , the right of government in the generall , &c. but this implies not , that it should be properly one corporation , no more then it concludeth because mankinde is a society , and every one that is born , is already by his birth admitted a member of humane societie : and so into all the rights of men , as they are men , as to have right to food , clothes , protection , and government in the generall ; that therefore all the men in the world are one corporation or kingdome . 2. they were admitted by baptisme immediately and directly into christ and his mysticall body ; but into the visible company onely by accident . if there had beene but one beleever on earth ; baptisme had had its use and end . argum. 4. christ is one visible head , &c. by vertue of his lawes , ordinances , providences , walking in the midst of the church , and of two or three gathered together , as the king of engl. is visibly king of sco●l . though residing at london in engl. therefore the king being one the church his kingdom , is one too . answ. hee cites in the margent * beza : saying that the church is not a common wealth , nor an aristocracy , but a kingdome : and if so ; surely christ is the absolute monarch of it : but that argues the church to bee one , in respect of christ onely , his spirit and lawes , but not at all in respect of its visible government by it selfe ; unlesse it be proved that christ hath instituted on earth one visible single person or society of men to governe as one company together , the whole church on earth . 2. a king though absent from one place , yet is visible somewhere in his kingdomes , but christ not personally visibly now . 3. a king of more kingdomes then one , though they be one as they meet in his person , and in some respects , and have some common priviledges ; yet may their governments be distinct , as england and scotland . 4. as christ is one , so god is one , and as the church is christs kingdome , so is the world gods kingdome : his law of nature one , his providence governing one : but is it therefore but one outward kingdome ? arg. 5. the church of the jews was a type of the christian church : the great sanhedrin figured the apostles , and generall councells ; they were many tribes , but one church . arg. 6. rev. 11. 1. 2. 3. the universal church is represented by one city , the new iernsalem : and called the church , mat. 16. 1 cor. 12. eph. 4. answ. the jewish church was a type , but not in all things , for then must wee have one visible high priest , one temple , must meet altogether there ; &c. but as these ended in christ , so that national church , till it be called the second time . 2. that church was but one single intire congregation , there they met all of them , thrice a year before the lord , and the tabernacle ; called the tabernacle of the congregation . 4. the church and common-wealth were one body * as such : which i think mr noyes will not judge to hold in all nations . 2. to that of one jerusalem , i say , that it is questionable whether those places speak of the church , as it shall be before the comming of christ or after . 3. whether they speak of the state of it before the calling of the jews or after ; the latter is affirmed by several expositors ; and they urge the word ierusalem , it shall be the state of the jews : but 4. howsoever , figurative and symbolical places are not argumentative alone . 5. the church is no mystical ierusalem , though not visible ; neither doth that vision argue it to be visible ; no more then the holy ghost his appearing in the shape of a dove , conclude that the holy spirit is visible . argum. 7. the mysticall union of brotherhood makes one mysticall body : ergo the visible union one visible body . answ. it beggs the question . for 't is denyed that there is such a visible onenesse , as is the mysticall : the mystical union catholick is reall : the visible notionall only : so all men have a mysticall union of nature , yet not in outward government : nor would it be convenient they should . argum. 8. all naturall grounds of fellowship in particular churches in respect of ordinary execution , bespeaks fellowship in one catholick church , in respect of lesse ordinary . brotherly union , christian profession , the celebration of the name of christ , who is glorified more eminently in the great assembly ; all these are prevalent . the notion of a relation doth cherish affection : pride , and independency are inseparable . answ. 1. does all relations of persons one to another , and obligations of mutuall duties in regard of those relations , argue that they must be one corporation , and one government : the twelve children of iacob , if god had seene it good , might have beene so many severall churches and kingdomes , and yet have preserved unitie , and done their duties of their relation of brotherhood . the twelve apostles were independent in power one from another ( see gal. 7. chap. 2. ) yet were in relation one to another , and did performe all mutuall offices for the good of the whole . 2. as pride and independency are inseperable , so also pride and usurpation , pride and invasion of the rights of particulars , under notion of a common society ; pride and tyranny , which hath its way paved in the church by this notion , as hath beene found by experience ; and 't is acknowledged by this author in this chapter to have beene the occasion of the rising of the man of sinne , viz. some of the ancients their high doting on the unity of the visible church . 3. some kinde of independency may bee without pride ; such as was in the apostles ; and is in the severall kingdomes , and free states in the world : ( whereof new england the place of this authours habitation is one ) and all kinde of it , and an absolute independency is disavowed by persons of the greatest note in that way ; as the apologists expresly call absolute independency as a proud and insolent title ; so the elders of new-england , and particularly m. * cotton . this author therefore should either have explained himself touching independency , or else have used some other expression , then that which he could not but know , would be ( ad salviam ) indeed to the palate of some , but ( ad contumeliam ) an addition to the pressure that others ( good and sober men ) are oppressed with . but it may be the superstition of certain of the old * heathen takes at this day ; who in sowing some kinde of graine , apprehended it would grow the better , if it were done with reviling and reproaching each other . i would willingly hope , that example of tertullian is so well known to mr ▪ noyes , that no provocation from the church should excite him to satisfie himself upon it . injuriae parentum ferendae sunt . argum. 9. the covenant or profession of all israel together , was to walk before the lord : and converts in the primitive church , promised to walk with all saints , in all the ordinances : the church is one citie , having many gates ; or particular churches , by any gate or church entrance is had into the whole church , &c. answ. 1. there must be difference made betwixt the state of the jewish and christian church ; because they were joyntly one common-wealth , and one particvlar congregation , and not the universal church , unlesse by accident , in as much as there was then no other visible church ; except , as we said before , we follow those who hold that iethro , iob , &c. lived in those times ; and were particular churches . 2. whether the covenant in the primitive time ran in such a forme , doth not appear to me : but for the sense of it , it may be admitted , according to what hath been often said ; men are ingaged , and may promise to do the duties of their relations to those to whom they have any tye , and so in that respect are one with them ; and yet it followeth not that this body is a visible body or corporation , it may be a mystical one ; or it may be visible in some respect , and not in point of government : or yet the government may be visible in several parts ; but not as one in the whole . all the apostles were engaged to assist one another , yet did they not depend one on another in point of government ; as after i had said this above , i found m. cotton to have taught it before , whom then i had not read . all men are bound to offices to all men ; do good to all men saith the apostle ; are therefore all men one visible corporation or body politick ? 3. by one church we are let into all churches in respect of their essential being , rights , and common priviledges , mystical union , &c. not in respect of particular jurisdiction . a man that is borne of one parent , is let into the whole society of men , and all common prerogatives ; but not into the rights of each citie , &c. his 10. and last argument , it is generally supposed that all churches have power to act together , and to expect power of jurisdiction in a general councel . calvin is expresse ( inst. l. 4. c. 8. and 9. ) therefore the church is one visible body , else it could not so act . operari sequitur esse . answ. 1. it hath been granted that a company in some sense may be a visible body or corporation , in respect of some more common and lesser acts ; but not properly so , and in respect of the parts of government and jurisdiction properly so called . 2. the acting of a general councel , yea though it were to the highest points of jurisdiction , as ordination , and excommunication , may proceed on our grounds , and not on the visible and integral onenesse of all churches into a corporation ; for it may proceed on the ground of voluntary association , and communion of churches , whereby all particular churches are willing to unite freely , and not of necessity , their power ; and to act for the use of their particular bodies , and in order to the whole ; but not as being one incorporated reipublick ; nor as having any new , or properly larger power ( being met ) as such a body , but onely by accident , as being aggregated and collected together . after which manner was the first presbyterian church erected , viz. at geneva , the several congregations uniting voluntarily , as so many distinct bodies into one aggregated body . and as the kingdom of england and scotland , and some free cities in germany upper and lower act together : which neither makes a new or greater power in the assembled or general body , nor destroyes the entire power of the particular societies : in which sense our opinion would admit of the power of a general councel : but i cannot owne it ; because it is partly groundlesse in scripture ; partly impossible , and partly dangerous in the thing it self , as hath been observed above . 3. not all acting together , nor all acts that in some sense may be said to be acts of power , doth imply an onenesse of corporation , or jurisdiction properly so called . i have shewed before that a colledge of physicians may meet to consult and give advice in point of health , which they have power by their profession , and by the lawes to do : and the patient is obliged by the lawes of nature , prudence and conscience ; unlesse there appear a sufficient impediment : but this neither argueth that all these physicians are of one colledge , yea or kingdom ; nor that they have power to constrain the patient to obey . calvin in the very chapters quoted by this author , he laies down ground for the overthrow of this opinion : as where he teacheth , that as the writings of men though godly , so neither the authority either of particular churches , or of the whole church in general is such , as was the authority of the apostles , for they may not establish any new article of faith , &c. and also answers divers of the arguments of this author , and the other : by affirming that the promises of not leaving the church , of guiding it in all truth , &c. ( and so we might add all the other almost before mentioned ) are made no lesse to each beleever , then to the whole chvrch : which i desire may be observed . again , he makes the authoritie of a general councel to depend on that promise : when two or three are gathered in my name &c. and then saith , that this as well agreeth to any particular company of christians , as to a generall councel . 2. it doth not appear to me in those chapters that hee ownes general councells on any such grounds : nor do i see how he can , by what he saith on eph. 4. 11. above cited . 3. if these councells he there approves did excommunicate &c. yet he doth not mention his approbation of them in those things , and wee may apprehend he might count such actions among those particulars of their failings which he there enumerates . 2. after his argument he makes the objection m. hudson had done , viz. the whole church hath no visible head , ergo , it is no one visible corporation or body . he replies to this 1. particular churches are visible churches , though destitute of officers . but i reply , should they be so , if they had not one common bond of particular laws , administred by one person , or one visible society of officers ? 2. they may all meet as one visible body : the universal church then must either meet so , or else have some visible officers universal over the whole . secondly he saith , christ is supposed the visible head in some respect . answ. but that is not the question , but what visible existent head there is on earth , by whom it may appear one visible bodie : as we saw before out of calvin on ephes. 4. 11. 2. how can we contain christ visible properly . 3. he saith , the church is one so as to act ordinarily , as one , divisim , dividedly , and yet by reason of the mutual consent in all churches , one act of power done in one church , is by authority of the universal church , and reaches to all churches as excommunication out of one , is excommunication out of all . but 1. there was never any society or corporation , that acted as one dividedly and in parts unlesse it did first act as one joyntly together , and in a body , wherein power was given to such divided bodies to act so , unlesse it were upon some sudden and extraordinary accident that required immediate action before the body could convene . 2. every society though it may act in parts , as a kingdome in severall corporations , and a corporation in severall wards , or halls , and companies , yet hath it withall one common , ordinary and standing officer or officers visible to governe in chiefe , to whom all maine causes are referred &c. but 3. that the particular church that acteth in the right of the universall church by reason of mutuall consent in all churches , is not proved by that medium : for mutuall consent , may be voluntary and accidentall , and so a figure onely : whereas hee is to prove that all churches are necessarily essentially , by way of institution , and for ever to be one body , whether they consent or consent not . but a particular church acteth , first , in the right of christ , who is the first subject of church power , ( matth. 28. 28. ) secondly , it acteth in the right of a church , that is of a societie that hath embraced the faith of christ , which , as a church indefinitely and essentially is the next subject of church power , because we see such power committed to every church : so we heard even now , calvin to expound that promise , matth. 18. when tvvo or three are gathered &c. which i finde also the forepraised author to have said before me , whom at the writing of this above , i had not seene in the particular . 4. that he that is excommunicated out of one church ( if duely ) is excluded out of all : is not because the whole church is one visible body ; but because all the particular churches agree in nature , and essence of doctrine , worship and government , so that he that is unfit to be a member of one , is so of all : because they all require the same essentiall conditions , as he that is cut off by the hand of justice , for violation of the lawes of nature , in one common wealth , is cut out of all , yet it doth not follow that all men are one common wealth . or as hee that is out-lawed in one corporation justly , is outlawed in all congregations virtually , and upon the matter , though not directly and formally , till hee be so declared by them , if those corporations go all by the same lawes ( for substance ) and government ; though it doth not follow that these severall corporations are therefore one , or under one generall body , ( which as i take it is the case betwixt england and scotland , where by reason of union under one king , though the governments remaine distinct , yet one that is borne in either kingdome , is not an alien , but a free-borne denizon of both ; and so by consequence ( as i apprehend , for i may be mistaken in a law notion , and i bring it but for illustration ) hee that is out-lawed in one kingdome cannot remaine under the protection of the lawes of the other : and yet the bodies are distinct in power and government , though not divided wholy , but in some respect . so in the church . in the third and last place he comes to authorities : but here either he cites those who are nothing for him , or when they dispute the point professedly , are expressly against him ; as his first author chamier : who though he say , that if not every pastor , yet all of them are set over the whole church . yet when he argueth the point , he explaineth himselfe to mean all distributively , every one in his charge , as all the ma●ors and sheriffes governe the whole kingdome , but not joyntly , but severally : for hee denyeth such an one visible universall church , as mr hudson acknowledged , and as we saw before . the 2. are other moderne divines , whom mr noyes would have not to consist with themselves , whilest they deny an universall visible church , and yet grants judiciall power to synods : but it hath beene shewed before , that this may be granted , though the other be denyed , &c. the 3. are the fathers , who ( he saith ) so predicated an universall visible church , they laid the foundation for an universall bishop . if so ; then let this author take heed he lay not a foundation to raise him out of the grave againe , in his image , ( as i have heard a reverend elder of new england called an universal visible church in respect of the papacy ) and to bury the liberties of all the christian churches in his grave . the 4. author is polanus , who saith , the things of god are administered ( synodali {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) by the determination of the synod ; but are confirmed ( regia {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) by the kings authoritie . wee allow the power of determining ( with calvin above cited ) according to the word of god to synods , and are well content and thankfull that kings will become nursing fathers to the church . the 5. and last are the professors of leyden , who say , that in the synod is the top of authoritie , the unitie of the whole church , the establishment of order . but they speake of particular synods in particular churches , and do not subvert what was shewed out of them above . in fine , he acknowledgeth that the papists would build their babell on this foundation ; which i thinke they well may , or some-what like it ; and so i remit this author to the reverend elders of new england , who are much more able to deale with him ; and of some of whom , hee will heare about this argument i suppose very shortly . the 5. and last that to my view have appeared in defence of this notion are the london ministers : before i come to their arguments i shall ( after the example of a reverend member of the assembly ) do right to some of both sides . principal men there are in those waies , and even of the assembly it selfe , whose judgements and practise have not beene truely represented by the ministers in their collation of the opinion of the presbyterians and the independents . i will instance onely in one present question . the independents are said to hold no other visible church of christ , but only a single congregation meeting together in one place to partake of all ordinances . but this is not their opinion . that it is essentially required to the very being of a visible church that it meet in one place , they hold it ( de benè esse ) for conveniency , not absolutely necessary : now it is not ingenuous to fasten upon a way or man generally , that which some ( such as wil be in any profession ) particular , and perhaps weak or passionate men may hold . 2. these brethren observe not that themselves are in the whole fault of that which the independents owne in this charge : scil. making no other a visible church then a single congregation , for if the brethrens opinion bee true ; the catholique visible church is made but one single congregation or corporation ( though too bigge to meet together , but in their deputies . ) for if it have the same visible lawes , under the same visible order of officers , and these officers one visible societie or colledge , over each , and over the whole , then is it as much one particular and single corporation , as stepny or cripple-gate . now on the contrary for that opinion that is opposed to this , and said to be the judgement of the presbyterians : viz. that there is one general visible church of christ on earth , whereof all particular churches and single congregations are but as similar parts of the whole : there is not onely no one presbyterian could hitherto be shewed to be of that judgement , till the sitting of this assembly , ( in favour of whom apolonius wrote ) but also divers above evidenced to be against it , and acknowledged so by the authors of this opinion : plain dealing is the best policie : but to their arguments , 1. they urge the forenamed place , 1 cor. 12. and say , the apostle speaks of one generall church , because he saith [ church , ] not churches . 2. because he speaks of it in such a latitude , as to comprehend all gifts of the spirit , all members , all officers ordinary and extraordinary , which cannot agree to a particular church . answ. 1. wee have shewed that the church taken essentially , is one : though integrally and in respect of its existence and particular government , it is as manifold , as there are particular churches . now to the church in the former sence , are those things given , all men in essence and nature are one : to man in this respects is given governours and government , arts and gifts , &c. must all therefore be one common wealth ? 2. or else , which i rather adhered to ; the church is taken in that place mystically , for the whole society or family in heaven and earth , as was then evidenced . 3. all these officers and gifts were given to the church of corinth immediately , though not solely and onely . the light of the sun is given immediately to that particular place on which it shines , with all the brightnesse and influence of it , but not solely . 4. in this superintendency over the whole church , whether severally or joyntly , the scripture hath instituted no successors to the apostles . 5. by apostles might be meant the chief officers of corinth . a second place ( and wherein they handle this subject more expresly ) is part 2. chap. 8. where their first argument is drawne onely from those places that name the church ( indefinitely ) as on this rock will i build my church . he hath set some in the church apostles , &c. and their second taken from such places as compare all visible professors to one [ organical body ] which are some of the same places they used in the first argument , as 1 cor. 12. we being many , are one body : so rom. 12. 4. ephes. 4. 11. answ. 1. these have been replyed to above . 2. they do not make the whole visible catholick church one [ organical ] but one [ similar ] body in our brethrens first assertion : but organical and similar are opposite , as was shewed in answer to m. hudson , whom in this inconsistencie , opinion and expression , they have either followed , or he some of them . 3. next they endeavour to prove that the word ministry , ordinances , and particularly baptisme , are given to the generall visible church : ( the method mr hudson used , moses mother was his nurse also ) whence it will follow ; that there is a generall visible or catholique church . therefore i shall take this for a third head of arguments , and answer to it . 1. the word ministery , ordinances , &c. all of them are given immediately to every particular church , where they are , and where there may be use of them ; though not solely : and the first two places quoted , speak immediately of the church of ephesus ; and the third immediately of the church of corinth ; the fourth of the church at rome . 2. they are given to the church , as one essentiall or mysticall body . but no way concludes they must bee one visibly , no more then the gifts of reason , arts , speech , the government of emperours , kings , princes ; the order of inferior and superiour members given by god to mankinde : doth prove that therefore all men are one visible , general corporation or common-wealth ; or integral , organical , similar bodie , consisting of parts , as a similar body , altogether alike : and as an organical body of parts heterogene , and nothing alike : which even a plain reader will perceive to be as uncouth logick as divinity . chap. vi . the conclusion . 1. corrollaryes . 2. a word to the authors of this opinion . and thus ( by the assistance of god ) an answer hath been given ( though 't is like they will not so be answered ) to these brethren : and therein i hope i have spoken as the oracles of god , both for truth and sobernesse . sure i am , i have endeavoured ( though perhaps not without some failing ) to observe that of the father ( worthy saith * one , to be written on the chairs of all divines and disputants ( uncialibus literis ) in capital letters : ) we pursue not ( saith the * ancient ) our opponents with reproches and contumelies , as the most do , sheltring the weaknesse of their reasons and arguments with revileing speeches ; not unlike the ( fish ) sepia , which * they say , casts out a black inkie matter , whereby she avoids the fisher . but that we make war for christ , we evidence by this argument , that we contend after the manner of christ , who is meek , and peaceable , and bare our infirmities . now from the precedent tractate , when i have inferred a corollary or two , and breathed out a word of love into our brethr●ns eares and bosomes : i have done . as to the former . 1. if there be one visible vniversal governing church , ●hen the ( now endeavoured ) presbyterie ( consisting of the presbyteries of the whole world as one entire body , and claiming so by divine right , as on the ground of one catholick visible governing church ; hath no foundation in scripture : and so is in that respect [ * ens fictum ] a divine nothing . 2. there is no visible church or corporation ecclesiasticall , properly so called ; and as the immediate receptacle of church-power ; but a particular church ( i. e. the church of one place ) though not as particular , but as a church indefinitely , essentially , and absolutely considered . 3. then there are no universal governing officers at large ; that being ordained in one church , are governours every where ; no more then a major of one corporation , is so in another ; or that a ruling elder or deacon of one church , hath the same power in another , though perhaps in combination with the former . whence it will follow , first , that no minister can do an act properly of power ministerial out of the church , whereof he is an officer , that is formally valid : i. e. as from him , being an officer . 2. that the ordinances administred by ministers either of no congregation , or out of their owne , are void formally and uneffectual . 3. that churches destitute of ministers , must remain without ordinances , &c. the three first main inferences i acknowledge to be consequent to the foregoing discourse : but to the conclusions drawn from them , i must speak something . 1. some distinguish betwixt power purely ministerial , and properly governing , because we finde the apostles did preach and baptise whilest christ was on earth ; and before they were endued with power from on high , to administer discipline and government : and they say ministerial power is of larger extent , and governing power restrained to a political body or corporation . 2. others say , that by vertue of the communion of churches , all officers are common amongst them ( quoadusum , non quoad dominium ) to use , though not to owne as theirs . but secondly , to avoid dispute , i shall omit these , and what else might be replyed more exactly ; and adhere at present to another answer , viz. factum valet , fieri non debuit . that the vulgar axiome holds here : things that are in themselves right , i. e in the essential causes ( matter and forme ) good , and according to institution , though not proceeding by standing rule in some externalls ( as in the outward efficient , or minister , or circumstantial manner of doing ) are not therefore void formally . for instance , first in natural things : those creatures that are begotten both by generation of their dammes ; and also by putrefaction , and heat of the sun ( as divers creeping things are ) though the latter differ in the outward instrumental cause , yet are they as true in their kinde as the former : so the serpent , the lice , the froggs , &c. that moses made before pharaoh ; and the wine that christ made at the banquet : were as true in their kinde as those wrought by ordinarie causes . so secondly in spiritualls , zipporahs circumcising her child ( though m. mead gives another interpretation of it ) the circumcision administred by the idolatrous priests . jehojadahs , and afterward the maccabees administration of ecclesiastick and civil power , to wit , the kingdom and priesthood together : was valid . the high priests in the time of christ had no orderly power , as being not the persons designed by god for that office , as not being of aarons line , nor coming in by a lawful way , &c. yet their acts were valid , and christ present at them . 3. to the third particular i say , 1. this is no greater inconvenience , then that a corporation must be without many those acts which onely officers may doe , whilest they are destitute of them . 2. there would bee ordinarily ministers enough , and a succession of them in every church , if the congregations or parishes , were divided , and limited by scripture and reason , that is : according to the number of christians , and conveniency of habitation : and not according as the bounds of lordships accidentally fell ; or superstition prompted ( to get offerings , or merit pardon ) or wealth and pride suggested ( when some grown rich would not sit so low as before ) which are the common originalls of the multitudes of parishes , especially in cities and great townes . thus of the corrollaries . 2. in the next place ; for our brethren , the assertors of the opposed tenet . as a bishop must be apt to teach ; so hee must bee willing to heare also ; for he must not bee self-willed , nor soone angry with those that p●t him in remembrance . on these footings , and the evidence of the truth now pleaded ; i take liberty , ( with due respect unto the persons and places of them with whom i deale ) to advance a step or two neerer to them , and speak ( in os ipsum ) as the saying is , mouth to mouth . there is a general and sad complaint ( and that not without cause ) of novelty , variety and danger of opinions . i shall not injure ye brethren if i put you in minde , that the opinion ( in your sense at least ) is ●ew light , and cannot but increase the differences and disputes exceedingly ; especially when men shall be engaged to subscribe it as an article of faith ; or else be secluded from emploiment in the church of god ; which occasioned so many controversies about liturgie , episcopacie , ceremony , &c. formerly . that it is like also to prove of the greatest danger to the churches and their reformations : even your owne ; was shewed above . now how incongruous is it , that those persons who have with so much zeal inveighed against others for like things , should have the beam of that in their owne eye : and how imprudent would it seem to be , if men of repute for wisdom and piety , should be so far transported , either with distaste to any party , or fear of danger to their owne ; as to admit a forraigner ( with intent to evert their adversary , and secure themselves ) who will prey on both . now if ye will needs maintain a litigious title : can ye not live on the inheritance of your fathers ? presbyterie hath stood without this proppe ; and it is not safe to remove a building from its old foundation : this new peece put to the old garment , is like to make the rent : it proved so in the late church-government . whilest they held it ( a ex usu ecclesiae ) by custome of the church , as of old ; or ( b gratia regis ) by the favour of the c prince ; as of later dayes : they stood even in great stormes , as we know ; but when they would settle it on a new bottom : intitle god to it immediately : it was not long after the returne of light , but ( corvuit funditus ) it came tumbling downe . withall , let bitternesse , and calumny in word and writing : such as a late reproachful and ingrateful book unto our d nation hath : but especially injurious dealing ( with orthodox , godly , peaceable , and publikely useful dissentients ) be removed . for besides that experience hath hitherto lessoned us , that the wrath of man worketh not the righteousnesse of god ; and hence all endeavour of the same will not do as yet ; what is desired ; let it be remembred , that the top-weeds that god will strike at till he hath struck off , are superstition and oppression . these ruined those who were in the chair before ye , kill not the man because he wears his clothes ill-favouredly , or perhaps will go naked . starve not the children though froward or wanton , if they will take in but some wholesome food . tithe not mint and cummine , and neglect in the mean time justice and judgement to the soules of the gospellesse people . devour not widdows houses ( by depriving their husbands and children of means of livelyhood , for very disputable matters , under pretence of prayer , government . &c. to close : there are who rejoyce in such sparks as these , which themselves have kindled ; and in the curious ( but combustible ) fabricks which they have raised on the foundation : yet when they shall see the fire seise upon their work : and that they must suffer the losse of it : though themselves be saved , and in that respect they depart in peace ; yet reflecting on their former damage , have this from the hand of god , that they lie down in sorrow : but i hope better things of many of them , and such , as not onely accompany salvation ; but as do precede a full reward . the end . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a39282e-280 general councells . cap. 5. §. 3. era●m . in praef. ad hilarium : summa religionis nostri , pax est & unanimitas , ea vix constare poterit , nisi de quam potest paucissimis definiamus , & in multis literum relinquamus suum cuique judicium , propterea quod nigens sit rerum plurimarum obscuritas , &c. ep. 57. ad dardan . regulum fid●i pusillis magnisque comm●nem , in ecclesiam te●●nt . ● vshers answer to the iesuite , page 418. rom. 4. c. 15 , 1 cor. 8. c. 10. phil. 3. 15. notes for div a39282e-810 gratian , notes for div a39282e-1230 considerat . quarundam controvers . ad regimen ecclesia dei spectant quae in anglia agitantur : edit. 1644. conclus . 3. § 2. the first authors of this opinion . apollonius , hudson , the assembly of divines . m : noyes . ministers of london , m. vv. sometimes of this parliament . § 3. prov. 15. 22 , § 4. * m. hudson . notes for div a39282e-1780 termes expl . 1. church . * so tilenus syntag. thes. de eccles. calvine and other add sacraments , and some discipline : but these as notes , not as formal causes of it . 2. onenesse . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} acts 17. 26. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . 3. vniversality . vniversalium fundamentum in rebus forma in mente . 4. visibility . 5. church power , state of the quest baynes dioces . pag. 21. declar. h. com. about the disposal of the kings person . defensio eccles. ang. cap. 28. cotton keyes kingd . h. cap. 6. page 18. ecles. 4. 1● . act. 15. 2. state of the quest . in respect of the patr. of this opinion . 2 state of the quest . positively . apol. ubi supra . lond. min. div. right presb. cap. 11. pag. 163. notes for div a39282e-3330 levis armaturae militibus velitare * see their praises apud montag . apparat . sacr. praefat : and d. vvheare de meth. leg. hist. * cent. magd. cent. 2. cap. de regim. eccl. tit. de privat . syn. de tit. de consoc . eccles. object . crakanthorp ubi supra . answ . * cent magd. ubi supra in principio cap. de reg. eccles. conc. gen. 2. c. 2. conc. antioch . temp. iul. c. 13. conc. sardic. . can. 19. caus. 9. q. 2. c. null lib. 1 , ep. 4. serm. 1. de pasch . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} &c. * {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} , lib. 7. strom. * {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . instit. l. 4. c , 1. * de unitate eccles , sive de simplicitate praelator . iames corrupt : fath. perk. praepaer . prob . scultet . medull . patr. in loc. insolidum . robur unum : vnum altare dicitur , quod una fides & unum baptism● & una ecclesia . hierona● is . 10 : 2● tract. in ioh. 124. de duodec . abus. grad. 1. lib. 3. reg. cit. cent . 5. cap. 4 , tit ▪ de eccles. dilatata per orbem ecclesia , in una eademque fide , & veritatis catholica societate consistit : & tum innumera sit multitude fidelium : unnm tamen cor , unam habere animam , pro fidei & delectionis societate , merito dicantur . 2. preiudice , dangerous ▪ * there are but four generall c●●●cels received . the first of which was three hundred years after christ , the last above a thousand years ago . * preface to m. cotton , of the keys of the kingdome of heaven ▪ and cyprian lib , 1. epist. 3. page 10. 11. bellarmines definition of the catholick visible church , compared with the definition of these authors . instit. l. 4. c. 1. 5. de oecum . pont. l. 1. c. 8. harding . vnum {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . loc. citat . hardings proof the same with these brethrens . {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} m. ●utherford for preaching without speciall ordination in some cases . synops . th●s. de e●cles . n. 33. notes for div a39282e-5900 the apost. useth the metaphor , eph. 6. 1 some undeniable suppositions premised . matth. 28. chap. 7. 14. numb. 23. lam. 3. 37. ier. 23. 21. ezek. 13. 2 arguments , 1. acausa efficiente , 1. negativa seu deficiente , if we may so speak●●ection 1. 2. positiva sive contra dicente . * ball tryall of separat . grounds , and others . exod. 28. ●● . object . ansvv. * cartwright in lo● . 1 cor. 5. calvin . histor● motuum 〈◊〉 . pag. 8. videantur geograph 2. a materia , sect. 2. p. 22. 1 ab ejus non existentia . * as m. r●ndall speaks : otherwise an episcopal man . of the ch. pag. 76. pag. 24. object . answ . object . 2. pag. ●ad . answ . vid. eus●● . euseb. de vit. const. l. 2. c. ●6 . scult. medul. in anal. h. conc. 2. ab impossibilitate existendi . 3. a fo●ma . * § 3. sacramentum . object . answ . my kingdome is not of this world iohn 18. 36. with rom. 12. 2. apollon. c. 3. p. 41. hudson a pag. 25. quest . 2. declar. parl. ex flo●a & all . object . ansvv. 4 a fine , 1. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} § 4. * apollog . narrat . pag. 14 , cottons way of churches . chap. 6 2. {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} the anabyst● of a papists faith upthis principle . * euseb. l. 3. c. 1. object . ansvv. de●●nsilio reverendiss . cardinal . * gerson . schola parisienfis . concil constansien●● basiliense &c. bishop vssher●t a conference ●● hatfield . se also the centuries , cent. 2. and 3. cap. de reg. eccles ▪ platin. in bonif. 3. * l●eis infra citand . * the church of rome writing to cyprian say , that what concerned the whole church , was to be determined by a general councel . * cypr. epist. lib. 2. ep. 7 pagets christianography . notes for div a39282e-9330 apollon. cap. 3. sect. 1. & cap. 1. rejicimus 1. § 1. profess . leyd. disp . 40. thes. 33. aiun● ; essentialem communitat fide & fa●ra●m : constare : & hance esse ubi regiminis , fom●a inter se differunt . object . apollo● . ubi supra . object . ansv . * ●ucor in mat. 13. 1 cor. 12. 2● . explained . eph. 4. 3 , 4 , 5 , 6. explained , apolles to apollonius . rom. 16. 7. * 1 cor. 4. 9. 2 cor. 11. 13. hebr. 3. 1. apoc. 2. ● . v. trigland de potestat . eccles. & civili cap. 12. hist. mo●uum in scotia edit. 1641. object . ansvv. euseb : lib. 3. cap. 1. thomas ( {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} ) sortitus est parthiam . andreas scithiam . ioannes as●am &c. apollon. cap. 3 ▪ sect. 4. asserimus . ius divin. of the presbytery , p. 43. and cap. 11. p. 163. apollon. cap. 1. p. 8 reijcimus . arist. disp . 40. thes. 29 , 30 , 31. antibell . tom. 2. l. 〈◊〉 . 10. m. hudson . m. noyes . the london ministers . assembly of divines . arg. gen. 2. arg. gen. 3. apollon. ubi supra . vers. ● cartwright on the place . 〈◊〉 petit il●e , cavento . m. brinsley of yarmouth : sacred and soveraigne church remedy , pag 45. saith , the other churches though they were not bound formally , yet virtutually they were , in regard of the equity of the decree . he implies it was not the catholick church ▪ for that would have formally and not virtually onely have bound them , according to his judgment . object . answ . loc. com. loc. de eccles. p. 458. 〈◊〉 respectu . disp . 40. thes. 27. thes. 33. multum § 2. 2. m. hudson ▪ * page 1. * page 13. * meo quidem judicio de guhernatione loquitur . calv. in coloss. 1. 18. * calv. verum inter christian , longe alia est ratio . neque enim corpus politicum ( loquitur de civili ) duntaxat efficiunt , sed sunt spiritvale & arcanvm christi corpus . sic. v. 17. * page 11 ▪ * page 12. bellarm. e●ervat . medull . l. 1. c. 3● . n. 20. 21. m. edw. gangr . part 1. pag. 20. 21. totum integrale similare . mr ca●drey , preface to v●●dic . clavium . vide caudrey ubi supra . object . ansvv. instance , object . 2. ansvv. instance ▪ object . 3. answ . instance . object . 4. answ . instance ▪ object . 5. answ . the like hath apoll●nius . instance , vid. cent. eccles. ● . scriptures . 2. one argument from reason . a causa necessaria aut effectur , & contra . the radical mistake in this question . compare beza his exposition of 1 cor. 12. and eph. 4. 4. with theirs . § 3. 3. assembly of divines . reply to the dissenting brethren ▪ to the third proposit. . p. 48. and confession of faith , cap. 25. n. 2 , 3 , 4. arg. 1. ansvv. arist. object . ansvv. every one to be of some particular congregation in the judgement of the reverend assembly . answ . 1 pet ▪ 3. 20. * see the house of commons answ. to the scots papers , about the kings person . suppos . 7. object . answ . object . answ . light of nature . divine right of presbyterie , in the analys. of the book . sect. 4. temple measured , cap. 1. act. 1. c. 10. c. 16. epist. 83. pag , 367. ecclesia non est reipubl . non arist●●ratia , sed regnum ▪ see this argu● . urged for the power of the magistrate in church affairs fully answered by trigland . de civil . & eccles. potestat . cap. 12. vid. cottens keys , ch. 6. apoil●g. narrat . pag. 14. * keyes of the kingdom of heaven , cap. 6. * amamae epist , ad m. marsenn . o●ymum serere cum convitiis . hieron. de v. illustr. . & ●ent . mag. 3. c. 10. tit. de doctr 2 chron. 15. 12. c. 34. 31. cottons keyes , chap. 6. toward the end . ●aynes dioces . tryal . page 21. cap. 8 , sect. 9. sect. 11. cap. 9. sect. 2. mat. 18. object . answ . cottens keys . ch. ● . see dr austin of allegeance , in calvins case . chap. 4. chap. 4. mr cotten in his exposition upon the ●ialls . § 5. divine rights in presbytery , in epist. & ▪ part 1. c. 1. pag. 3. & part 2. c. 8. pag. 65. mr cheynell rise of socinians . pag. 65. preface pag. 13. 1 tim. 3. 15. eph. 4. 11. 1 cor. 12. rom. 12. 4. to ● . notes for div a39282e-19130 1 pet. 4. s ▪ amam . epist. ad m. marsenu . nazians . orat. 3● {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} {non-roman} . * pli● . lib. 9. § 1. corroll . 1. * so calvin ( for the substance of the thing ) on ephes. 4. 11. corroll . 2. corroll . 3. exod. 4. 25. 2 chron. 30. 11. 17 , 18 , 19 , 20. iosephus . see seld●● of tithes , cap. 6. sect. 3. and papists petition to king iame● , 16●4 . sect. ● . exhort to the brethren . tit. 1. 7. 2 iohn confession of faith , c. 25. n. 2 , 3. 4. cap. 3. episcopacy . a episcopi ●verint , se magis consuetudine ( ecclesiae ) quamdispositionis dominica veritate , presbyteris esse majores . hieron. in tit. 1. 5. b quanquam enim s●●undum honorum vocabula , quae jam ecclesiae vsvs ob●inuit , episcopatus , presbyterio , major sit ; tamen in multisrebus augustinus hieronymo minor est . aug. epist. ●9 . ad hieron. c iewell , whitguift , &c. d honor . reggius de stat● relig. in anglia . 1647. capita papaverum . superstition and oppression the sum of sathans decalogue , as religion is of gods . isaiah sectaries vnmasked and confuted. by the treating upon divers points of doctrine in debate betwixt the presbyterialists and sectarists, anabaptists, independents, and papists. / by george palmer wel-wisher to a warrantable uniformity in godly religious exercises. palmer, george, b. 1596 or 7. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a90720 of text r201662 in the english short title catalog (thomason e396_27). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 169 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 31 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a90720 wing p229 thomason e396_27 estc r201662 99862163 99862163 114314 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a90720) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 114314) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 63:e396[27]) sectaries vnmasked and confuted. by the treating upon divers points of doctrine in debate betwixt the presbyterialists and sectarists, anabaptists, independents, and papists. / by george palmer wel-wisher to a warrantable uniformity in godly religious exercises. palmer, george, b. 1596 or 7. [8], 32, 41-68 p. printed by richard cotes, london : 1647. in four parts. part 2 has a separate dated title page which reads: the voice of infants by infants defender; part 3 caption title reads: certain observations, cautions, and instructions for mr. lambe, and other anabaptists, to prevent their perverting of others to errors and schisme; part 4 caption title reads: an appendix for the reader, shewing the cause of our distractions, .. ; pagination and register are continuous. text is continuous despite pagination. annotation on thomason copy: "july 6th". reproduction of the original in the british library. eng lamb, thomas, d. 1686 -early works to 1800. church polity -early works to 1800. christian sects -england -early works to 1800. great britain -church history -17th century. a90720 r201662 (thomason e396_27). civilwar no sectaries vnmasked and confuted.: by the treating upon divers points of doctrine in debate betwixt the presbyterialists and sectarists, ana palmer, george 1647 32350 147 0 0 0 2 0 52 d the rate of 52 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the d category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-05 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-06 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-07 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2007-07 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion sectaries vnmasked and confvted . by the treating upon divers points of doctrine in debate betwixt the presbyterialists and sectarists , anabaptists , independents , and papists . by george palmer wel-wisher to a warrantable uniformity in godly religious exercises . out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast ordained strength , because of thine enemies , psal. 8. 2. matth. 21. 15 , 16. if these should hold their peace , the stones would immediately cry out , luke 19. 40. and my speech , &c. was not with enticing words of mans wisdome , but in demonstration of the spirit , and of power , that your faith should not stand in the wisdome of men , but in the power of god , 1 cor. 2. 4 , 5. london , printed by richard cotes , 1647. to the christian reader . beloved , it may seem strange to you , that i am approached to the presse ; and i confesse it is strange to my self . and therefore , both you and i may revive the ancient proverb , viz. is saul among the prophets ? but yet considering the great distractions among the children of god generally , and that in a time after so manifest issues of blood , which have been mortall to many hundred thousands , and yet notwithstanding wee being in want of the two happy staves ; viz. the staffe of beauty , and the staffe of bands : and that they are obtained , first , by a warrantable uniformity in godly exercises of our true religion , which is compared ●o a staffe of bands ; and the second ( which is a consequence of the first ) viz. unity of affection , which is compared to a staffe of beauty , these two being the supporters of a people from confusion and destruction , where-ever they have their being . secondly , considering also , that although a man ought to see to his owne house , and not to adventure to meddle with his neighbours dwellings , untill hee bee called by an outward voice , as well as by an inward provocation , and that notwithstanding upon an extraordinary case of danger , hee may ( if not absolutely prohibited ) put to his helping hand when a whole city is on fire , for it is then expected that their neighbours should come without an outward call , and put to their helping hands . provided that when hee appeareth , hee bee allowed and approved by those in authority there , that he bee able to doe good and not hurt ; and also , considering how many have adventured now in these times of danger , that have been much defective in some things by them put forth : and further seeing some have thrust forth the poyson of aspes to the increasing of our kingdomes sicknesse : and also that many have been permitted to use their pens , who were but private men , and perhaps , they have not all of them brought gold , nor much silver , yet accepted too : these things being by mee thus considered , and being absolutely perswaded that i have some water to quench the fire ; and also some gold , if not silver , and pearles , to helpe repaire what wilde fire hath exhausted ; i therefore have adventured toward the ruinated house of this our israel : and my chiefe care is to bring such materialls as is most wanting to it , for if i come not with fitting matter , i shall doe little good , if not much hurt , as some others have done before mee : yea , i , in so doing , may too easily increase the flame . for sometimes , the lesse straw or combustible matter is best , especially when the fire is too neare the thatch already ; and so many ( that seeme to bee friendly helpers ) are crafty hinderers in this our great necessity : and truly i see many at worke , and labour at it too , but they cannot well conclude about those things that are wanting to this house . therefore i am busied in the viewing of the materialls , which ( as i thinke ) bee those that truly belong to some speciall parts of this frame ; the which are sought for by many , and yet scarce found ; ( especially by divers of the sectaries : ) one saith , this is the piece that ought to be next ; and another saith to him , that that piece doth not belong to any part of the building , but that it belongs to romes synagogue ; and another hee would lay a foundation where there is a good one already ; and a fourth , hee would take away both that good one already laid , and the other that perhaps should lye somewhat neare it too ; and a fifth , hee like a cunning fox , would perswade them that it doth not belong to any of them all to build about that frame , and tells them in plaine termes , that they are not lawfully called to build there in this workmanship ; his policy was no other , but to keep them at strife from building , untill the house were quite consumed by his wilde-fire brought from rome , to which place hee did belong , ( but that hee had cloathed himself in a sheeps skin , and would be thought to bee a true sheep , that hee might the more easier deceive . ) but i am sure there are many honest builders , and they are lawfully called too , and also that they have true materialls , but that notwithstanding this fox , with wolves , and certaine beasts of the bottomlesse pit doe hinder them , by putting all the parts of the materialls of the house in such a mixture of confusion , that many who have least policy , cannot easily finde the true piece that is to bee laid next in the building : and some other of them doe know the right pieces , but will not confesse which they are , because they would hinder the other builders , that so they may take some of the parts of it , and build little caves for their owne private profit and gaine ; my paines herein , is to describe the true parts of this frame , and to lay them in order ready for those that are the true builders , and to unmaske the counterfeit builders , ( or rather , the pullers of it downe ) as also to helpe the weake in judgement , who can scarce know the right piece , or true part of the building , because the smoakie flame hath discoloured it : i doe perswade my selfe , if this could well bee done , wee should soone build peaceably , lovingly , and in a godly uniformity , though some peevishnesse would bee still amongst many , because they have suffered some losse since this flame began . my endeavour is to shew what the church of christ in the largest sense , doth consist of , and who ought to feed them , and who ought to ordaine those pastors ; and where , or how they should dwell , and many particular points that are in difference betwixt the presbyterialists , and those that dissent from them in the government of the church , &c. if you thinke mee too tart in my passages , i pray consider with me , that the government of the church is no light fly ; it is either a great happinesse if it be in a good frame , or a great misery if it be in confusion , we have experience of it too much already . secondly , my sharpnesse is not intended to any , but to those that deserve it , to others it is not meant . thirdly , i beleeve that rationall men , and single-hearted , will not much dissent from me in those things which i have laboured to prove and maintain for truth . fourthly , i am ready to receive a confutation in any thing wherein you can with either scripture or reason confute mee ; provided , that you doe not argue against scripture , where a babe may not onely read , but as easily conclude what is truth . sixthly , perhaps my plainnesse in phrase and method may dislike some that have more learning in the tongues , and other liberall arts to display truth with , i intreat them to note what my end is in this my paines , not to come with excellency of speech , if i had it , i aime at truth of matter , for it is that which we have need of in these times . seventhly , i beleeve that they are the vulgar sort of people that have most need of helpe in these points i treat of ; for the learned i hope , there are not many of them that doe much miscarry in these things , nor will dissent from the substantialls in them . eightly , if i chance to come out a second time , it may hap i may sore higher then some looke for , but i would first appeare to the weakest , for they are those that the wolves doe watch to make a prey of chiefly ; therefore i would endeavour to secure them , and then i passe very little to meet with both fox , wolfe , and all the frogs of rome : and so much i beleeve you will conclude upon , when you see their skins so pulled about their eares , as in this booke they lye , if a course be but timely taken with them , they will rather be gone from us , then stay to be so mangled , as here they be . ninthly , i intreat you to bee advised by mee in this one thing , especially , viz. when any point is treated upon in any booke , wherein the text to prove a doctrine by , is not expressed at large by the author , but the place named by figures onely , there take good heed lest you ( too soone ) make a conclusion of a ( supposed ) truth , before you looke in the text it selfe ; for many writers doe not rehearse the sentence it self , but name the place , and so goe on in argument with it ; and many times the reader makes a conclusion as the author of the booke doe conceive to bee the truth , although it bee many times false ; therefore it were good that all writers would rehearse the sentence of the scripture they quote to prove any thing by , at least in a matter that is of any great weight , as in this book i doe . another thing i intreat of you , which is this , that you will read seriously , and minde onely that you read ( free from distraction or trouble of minde ) as you read ; and read through a point from the beginning to the end , when you read . and when you have a booke , whose matter is sure divinity , and short for memory , and plaine for capacity , keep that by you to view continually . i intreat the reader to accept of this my good will to doe him good , and by his so doing , i shall bee well satisfied ; and bee ready in any way i may or can be able to be your servant george palmer . canterbury , june 11. 1647. sectaries unmasked and confuted . no separation ought to bee in the church of christ , nor divisions , or forsaking the assemblies of our selves together in the publick ordinances of godly and religious exercises ; rom. 16. 17. mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which yee have learned , and avoid them , &c. 1 cor. 1. 10. now i beseech you brethren , by the name of our lord jesus christ , that yee all speak the same thing , and that there bee no divisions among you ; but that yee bee perfectly joyned together in the same minde , and in the same judgement . and in chap. 3. 3. yee are yet carnall ; for whereas there is among you envie and strife , and divisions , are ye not carnall ? &c. and heb. 10. 24 , 25. let us consider one another , to provoke unto love and to good workes : not forsaking the assembling of our selves together , as the manner of some is , &c. 1 cor. 12. 24 , 25 , 26. god hath tempered the body together , having given more abundant honor to that part which lacked , that there should be no schisme in the body , but that the members should have the same care one of another , that they should suffer one with another . by all these places of scriptures it doth appear that the church should have no divisions , viz. christs body : i say it should not have divisions ; for although at some times it had some divisions , yet the apostles did alwayes endeavour to reclaime them from such divisions , as you may see by these texts of scriptures here now quoted . but it is to bee now considered , what kind of divisions those were ( at least chiefly ) that the apostle doth disclaim , which was amongst those members hee then did dehort these corinthians from : and how farre he then ( for the present ) did ( condescending to their weaknesse ) permit them liberty of conscience ; for , as i said , hee did endeavour to settle them in one way of religious exercises void of division , though ( for the present ) hee permitted them some liberty of conscience in some things that were of least concernment , and not destructive to the whole body , or indanger it to an absolute confusion ; and to this end , i will first look over the texts already quoted , and produce what i am able from them ; and after that produce reasons to shew the inconveniences that comes by the divisions that are amongst christians in their religious exercises . briefly , and also the happines that we may attain unto by a godly unity in affection ; and next after i will by arguments endeavour to shew , that this unity in affection is much forwarded by a uniformity in religious exercises , where it may be attained in a warrantable way ; and next , whether we may not now in these our dayes attain unto these things , without offending ( at least much ) any ( good ) conscience though weak . and then i will hang forth some signes or characters by which wee may collect which party is in most fault in their conversations between those that stand for the presbyterialists government , ( or at least nearest it ) and those that dissent from it , and proceed to the independent ways , which they call congregationall , that so we may by that meanes see our hearts more clearly : for doubtlesse many of us that are assured that we have some goodnes in truth in us , are not so forward and apt to espy our sinister ends , or by-respects ; and that it is a great tryall to a man ( who having once interessed himself to maintaine an opinion ) to undergoe a disgrace by renouncing it afterwards , though he be convinced in his judgement ; and i will briefly note some things that may move us to give god the glory , and our selves take some shame , seeing wee all deserve it . and lastly , indeavour to perswade those that stand for the presbyteriall government to imbrace those ( that renounce the other wayes , or any sins whatsoever ) without casting their sins in their teeth ; for , in many things wee sin all . the first text quoted , is , rom. 16. 17. now i beseech you brethren , marke them which cause divisions and offences , contrary to the doctrine which yee have learned , and avoid them ; for they that are such , serve not our lord jesus christ , but their own belly and by good words and faire speeches deceive the hearts of the simple . the scope of these texts , is , to prevent divisions in the church of these romans which in some was already begun , and that division was in their not assembling themselves according to the apostles institution , and that in some pretence , that all that paul had taught , was not an absolute truth , for they divided contrary to the doctrine , which they had received ( saith the text ) ( for in some case a man may divide , but he must have some warrantable cause ) but the end of this their division was not to serve christ jesus , but their own bellies ; ( for so saith the text ) and this must be done in or by some faire colourable demeanor , viz. good words , and fair speeches ( saith the text ) but all this was but to deceive , ( saith the apostle ) and because they could not delude the wise , therefore they would tamper with the ignorant , ( for so saith the text ) they deceive the hearts of the simple ; from hence i note also , that these were false teachers , that did make this division for their own private gain ; viz. to suck from the poore silly people , in way of pretence to teach them the truth ( for they did it to serve their belly . ) you shal see more of them in some of the next scriptures following . the next scripture quoted , was 1 cor 1. 10. now i beseech you brethren , by the name of our lord jesus christ , that yee all speake the same thing , and that there be no divisions among you , but that you be perfectly joyned together in the same mind , and in the same judgment . in this scripture the apostle perswades these corinthians , from division amongst the common hearers there , ( chiefly at least ) and shewes some cause of it in them , and that was for want of a mind and judgement well informed , and therefore they did much contend with each other , as in the 11 verse you may see . and therefore they were partiall in respecting and affecting of their teachers without just cause ; ( for those preachers were so knowing , that they did not differ in their judgements in those things they taught ) but this was their carnality in affecting the preacher more for his wisdome in words and phrases , &c. rather then for the truth of matter , ( as is very likely and cleare in the 17 verse ) for there hee saith he did not preach the gospel with wisdome of words , ( that is , chiefly ) lest the crosse of christ should be made of none effect . but by what hath been observed here chiefly for our purpose , is , that there ought to have been no divisions amongst them , seeing there was no cause ; and in chap. 3. ver. 3. he did also forbid divisions , and tells them the reason of it , viz. they were carnall , and lookt upon their teachers more then to gods word and working by the ministery of their preachers , as is to be seen in the fifth verse : and truly i must note one thing more from the words of the third verse , and that is this ; the reason why men have not their judgement better informed , is , because they doe not renounce their carnall corruptions , for the more a man desi●eth to renounce his corruptions , the better understanding he shall have in the word of god ; yee are carnall , said hee . but i passe to the two other scriptures named , for they are those which i doe most intend for my ( chiefe ) purpose . the first of them is heb. 10. 24 , 25. these are the words of the text , not forsaking the assembling of our selves together , as the manner of some is , &c. in this verse the apostle pre-admonisheth them to beware that they bee not drawne away from their publick assemblies in their godly exercises by the examples or enticing of some that had already forsaken them . by the apostles expression in this verse it seems those that did forsake , did not shew forth any notorious evill ayme or end , ( for the present ) wherefore they did forsake the assembling of themselves together with those that the apostle here forewarneth , therefore those might have some close colourable pretence , which as yet did not breake out , but some evill ayme they had , for the apostle noteth them and forewarneth the rest , selah . surely , it was an evill in them , ( for the apostles constitution was good in the government he had established amongst them ) it seemes here also that amongst the church of god divisions are naught , for the apostle endeavours the contrary , what ever the intent be of those that forsake and divide without some apparent and weighty cause . the next place is 1 cor. 12. 24 , 25 , 26. i will name but part of the first verse , and then all the rest ; these are the words , god hath tempered the body together , having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked , that there should bee no schisme in the body ; but that the members should have the same care one of another ; and whether one member suffer , all the members suffer with it ; or one member be honoured , all the members rejoyce with it ; the apostle in these verses excellently alludeth to the body of a man , to shew the constitution or frame of christs mysticall body , viz. his church on earth , that , as the body of man consists of divers members , so doth the church of christ , and have their severall offices of care and good performances one unto the other , and if any member suffer , the residue are sensible of its wants of prosperity ; and if it bee well and healthfull , the residue of the members of the body rejoyce with it , because the honouring of one member is the honouring of the whole , ( as a gold-ring on the finger , is esteemed an ornament to the whole body ) &c. thus it is with the mysticall body of christ , ( saith the apostle in ver. 27 , 28. ) they are to take care one of another , as the corporall body of man , the which it cannot doe if it bee divided member from member ; therefore ( saith the apostle in ver. 24. ) god hath tempered the body together , &c. and in ver. 25. he tells us , that the end of gods joyning the members together thus , is , that there should be no schism in the body , but that the members should have the same care one of another ; thus it is with the mysticall body of christ , if the members be divided , then is the body ( spirituall ) weakned , and in great imperfection and danger , especially if many members be either lame , or quite divided from it . thus you see by all these texts of holy scriptures , that schismes , divisions , and forsakings the assemblies ( of gods people ) in the onely way of religious exercises is utterly forbid , and the reasons ( in some particulars ) also rendred by the apostle in the words of this 12 chap. of 1 cor. 24 , 25 , & 26 verses : now next i am to perform three things which i have promised you , before i come to the goliah and his younger brethren , and of these three things i will be briefe , ( for i long untill i come to the main ones . ) the first is , to shew by reasons , that divisions in godly exercises of our religion , do occasion great inconveniences to the church or children of god ; first , it estrangeth and weakeneth their affections one towards the other : this we have experience of enough already on both sides , amongst us in these dayes : i shall not need to use many words to cause you to conclude with me this truth , for by our divisions in some points of doctrine , and much more in the government of the church , and the severall ways that severall persons and congregations steer ; the church is divided or weakned in their affections . secondly , by these divisions there is produced an evill opinion one of another , whereupon one is jealous of the other , lest the one do circumvent the other in his way , which hee hath resolved to walke and rest in , ( for all men in every way in religion , accounts his one way best , and therefore thinks him not so good as himselfe that differs from his wayes ) whereupon ( upon smal occasions ) they wil be ready to flout and scoffe at each other , and to fall at length to blows perhaps too . thirdly , when our affections are so weake towards each other , then civill wars are apt to bee amongst us , for every one will bee jealous lest the other would rob him of , or divert him from that which hee accounts so precious in his own way of religion . fourthly , when wee be so much divided , then wee are liable to be a prey to a common enemy . fifthly , by divisions ( in these kinds ) we are liable to have teachers of divers errors , to a farther confusion in religion ; for the severall preachers of the word of god , that are preachers to so many severall sorts of sects , will bee as strange to each other themselves , so that they will not meet to conferre together about religion ( or at least but few together ) because there are but few of many sects , that are of good ability in knowledge ( as preachers ) and so they will bee the more unable to know and preach the truth to the people . sixthly , there will bee little power in any to punish or restrain those that are to be restrained or punished , because the state will bee so divided both in opinions and severall companies : in sum , we shall be an absolute babel . the next in order ( which i promised you ) is the benefit or happinesse which we may attaine unto by a godly unity in affection ; i hope much need not to bee said of this , for all people have experience of it ( unlesse fooles and little infants , &c. ) but yet something of it i will note in particular . first , i will ( in summe ) conclude in this truth , that the deprivation of inconveniences is an injoying of happinesse ; for if that which is evill bee taken away , there remaineth that which is good , and so saith solomon in these words , take away the drosse from the silver , and there remaineth a vessell for the refiner . wee shall then bee joyned in our affections to love each other , the which will have joyned to it a good opinion of each other , and this is in holy scripture called the staffe of beauty ; neither shall we be so jealous of each other with an evill suspition , nor fall to blowes , nor jars , nor civill wars . for then we shall be joyned together in one , and be a staffe of bands ; and being so , wee shall the lesse feare a common enemy ; then shall our preachers meet , advise , and conferre together , for to be the better able to teach us the truth , yea , they and we shall bee so amiable to each other , as that they will bee incouraged to watch over us with joy , and not with grief , the which will be ( not unprofitable , but ) profitable unto us ; then we may retain a power to restrain errors , heresies , and stubbornnesse in evill ; ( in sum ) i say , we shall not be a babel of confusion , but as a flock of doves or sheep , by this blessed unity in godlinesse , here in this world , and attain everlasting blisse after this life ended , in heaven with god and his holy angels . one point more i have to wade in , before i come to the hydra and his young ones ; and that is this , viz. that a godly unity in affection is much forwarded by a lawfull uniformity in divine ordinances . i hope i shall not need to trouble my self nor the readers hereof with many arguments to make this good , seeing we now are taught it by wofull experience , ( by the want of it ) but yet i will begin with an authentick scripture , and that is in matter of religion , for that is it which most occasions either unity , ( if we well comply together ) or divisions , if we dissent from others in it , ( for we esteem that best , which wee think will most advantage us ) for men do not usually strive much for chaffe or drosse , but for wheat , gold , silver , or pearles , or such like things . this scripture is heb. 10. 24 , 25. these are the words , let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works , not forsaking the assembling of our selves together , as the manner of some is ; but exhorting one another , &c. let us , said hee , ( we who are not disunited in our way of our godly exercises of religion ) provoke one another to love and good works ; as if hee should say , wee who are not divided from each other in our ways of godly exercises , are not divided in our assemblies , whereby we may be helpfull one to each other , in provoking each other to love , ( that is , unity in affection ) and good works . and that this is the true genuall sense of the verse , it will appeare in the next verse , where he dehorteth them from forsaking the assembling of themselves together , as the manner of some then was . in which words you may see that some ( having forsaken the uniformity in those godly exercises , which these that are here exhorted did perform ) had forsaken their assemblies also , and therefore had lost this good opportunity which these in ver. 24. had ( that is to say ) to provoke unto love and to good works ; you may know by experience , that what one man disliketh in another , doth cause so much the less love or liking in him towards that man in whom he imagineth something worthy of his dislike ; for the true proverb is , like loveth its like , and the more they faile in their likenesse , the lesse they love : and this holdeth in every thing that is esteemed good , and the more good the matter or thing is accounted by one party , and disliked by the other , the more will their affections of love bee abated , especially in mankinde , and much more in divine things and heavenly ordinances . now i come to the chiefe master-piece , or goliah with his armour-bearer : and that is , whether wee in these our times may not attaine to this uniformity in a warrantable way , without much offending any good conscience , ( though weake ) that so we may attaine to this unity of affection in godlinesse , and thereby attaine to the happinesse i spake of , both in this life and the world to come sempiternally . and i will name some points of doctrine which those that stand for the presbyteriall government ( or nearest it ) doe hold and maintaine , the which those that doe dissent from us doe oppose , some of them in one point , and some of them in another point , &c. the which points are not ( amongst most of us ) held to bee fundamentalls of our religion , as in truth they are not ; that is to say , both parties ( if honest and true hearted in the fundamentalls ) may bee saved without them : ( if they could hold and continue so to the end of their dayes , and their seed also successively ) but those things we differ in are such as are to maintain and preserve us in those fundamentalls chiefly , and without which we cannot long stand upon them , but shall fall off : and these points doe chiefly concern the government of the church , and divers particulars in the demeanors or manners in the same ; as also , who ought to bee accounted worthy to bee esteemed a member of the church , and accordingly received to be of the company and partakers of the ordinances belonging to the church . therefore i will name so many points , as i have heard differenced between those that are for the presbyteriall government ( or nearest it ) and their opposites , ( and perhaps i will insert a few more points too ) and produce what scriptures i can remember to cleare the truth of the points , and bring divers reasons for some points too , by which meanes many may not pretend liberty of conscience without just cause , and bring ruine to the whole body spirituall : to name these points in order ( strictly ) i will not promise content to every one : and first for the church , viz. who are it : to this i answer , in strict knowledge of it , none but god can tell ; but so farre as the scriptures give us light to see , so farre we are to conclude in a charitable esteem , and that is thus , those that professe to be saved by faith in christ jesus ( according to the fundamentalls contained in the word of god ) and are partakers of his ordinances , and frame their lives according to his commandements . now herein we differ much about this latter part , the independents and we presbyterialls . the presbyterialls say , that there be divers degrees of sanctification , which in some is more , and in some is lesse , yea , so little in some , as that they doe but eschew the habituall acting of capitall sins in their outward demeanors to mans view , ( so to speak comparing one sin to another ) as those the apostle hath laid down as a rule for us to be guided by in this particular point now in hand , viz. to judge and account of a fit member ( in some degree ) of a church , as we may see in ephes. 5. 5. no whoremonger , nor unclean person , nor covetous man , which is an idolater , hath any inheritance in the kingdome of christ , and of god . 1 cor. 6. 9 , 10. neither fornicators , nor idolaters , nor adulterers , nor effeminate , nor abusers of themselves with mankinde , nor theeves , nor covetous , nor drunkards , nor revilers , nor extortioners , nor such like , shall inherit the kingdome of god . but the independents , or ( as they will rather be called ) the congregationall party , they hold , that except there be a more greater and more larger or stricter walking in the wayes of god , there can be no conclusion made that those persons have any saving grace in them at that time , and therefore not to bee received as members of a church , but that if they will be esteemed members of the true church , they must have such godly exercises in their families in a more demonstrative degree and manner , then doe appeare to bee in them that are for the presbyteriall government , ( for the more part ) and more zealous and frequent in the exercises of divine ordinances , or else they are not to be received as members of christs mysticall body . now to decide this question , i will bring divers scriptures to prove , that there were divers sins , and divers sorts of sins both of omission and commission amongst the true beleevers , not onely in the time of the old testament , as the sins of david a man after gods own heart , ( as the scripture termeth him , and divers others also of good report : ) but in the primitive churches , in the apostles time . and first i will begin in 1 cor. 3. 1. to 5. these are said to be carnall and addicted to strifes &c. and yet they are called babes in christ ; heb. 5. 12 , 13. these are such as are said to have need to be taught again the first principles of the oracles of god , &c. they were not capable of strong meat , but had still need of milk , ( viz. babes diet ) for they were still babes , these were relapsed in part , yet christian babes ; col. 3. the former verses , these had their affections too much set upon the things of this life ; 2 pet. 1. 5 , 6. these must then adde to their faith , vertue , and to vertue , knowledge , &c. 1 thess. 4. 1. to the end of ver. 6. and also ver. 10 , 11. these are wanting in knowledge and holinesse , and were addicted to carnall lusts , to uncleannesse , and to fraud and deceit , ( as too many professors are now adayes . ) 2 cor. 7. 1. these were exhorted to cleanse themselves both of flesh and spirit too ; 1 thes. 3. 12 , 13. these were to increase in love one toward another , and toward all men , that god might establish their hearts unblamable in holinesse ; chap. 5. 23. here the apostle prayeth for these , that god would sanctifie them wholly , &c. heb. 13. 5. these were dehorted from covetousnesse ; col. 1. 9. the apostle prayeth for these , that they might bee filled with the knowledge of gods will , in all wisdome and spirituall understanding , and that they might be fruitfull in every good worke ; joh. 17. 17. in this place christ prayed for his apostles , that they might be ( yet more ) sanctified ; and the corinthians were too much hankerers after fornication and adultery , as you may see in 1 cor. 6. 23. to the end of the chapter , and some of the former verses also ; and in the eight first verses you may see a great fault in them , reproved by the apostle , viz. so great a defect of love and good will each to other , that they went to law one against another , and that before the ( unjust ) unbeleevers , yea , they themselves did use fraud to each other , as in v. 8. appeareth , and yet these to whom this reproof was given , were beleevers , as you may see in ver. 6. by all these scriptures it doth appeare , that many ( in the present state of grace ) have been charged and reproved for many sins and corruptions at that time when they were in the faith , and present state of salvation ( yet the apostle did not make a separation , nor divisions , nor schismes . ) i doe not note these faults and defects of sanctification ( which betoken weaknesse in the faith ) to strengthen any in sin , far be it from me to incourage or comfort any in their persisting in vice ; but i would not have any judge of men too rashly and uncharitably , contrary to the rule of gods word , lest wee condemne some to be in the way of damnation , when they are in the present state of salvation . and from this mistake ariseth a spirit of uncharitable and unwarrantable , and dangerous separation from all the ordinances and meanes of salvation ( or at the least the most part of them ) by this their blind judging without the true rule . how shall such weake christians ( beset with corruptions ) be helped and strengthened against their sinnes and ignorances , if the stronger christians separate from them . we that are strong ( saith the apostle ) ought to bear the infirmity of the weake , viz. instruct them , exhort them , reprove them , and allure them by the word of truth , by the danger of damnation in hell , and salvation in heaven . now consider these things , you that are so forward to censure men so much uncharitably , as to separate your selves from men that are not worse in their conversation then these men aforesaid were ; nay , you separate from some that are not so scandalous as many of these now quoted were , and you do debar these and such like men from receiving the holy sacrament of the lords supper which is due to all christians , and such as you are to account so , ( they being not worse then these aforesaid , in their outward demeanor ) nay , we are to hope better of some that are worse then these before quoted . see for this also in 2 thess. 3. 14. these are the words , if any man obey not our epistle , note that man , and have no company with him , that he may be ashamed ; yet count him not as an enemy , but admonish him as a brother , as in v. 25 , & in the 6. such a person is named to them also ; and in 1 thess. 5. 14. are these words , warne the unruly : by all these places it doth appeare , that these were not to bee separated from the church , for still they were to admonish them as brethren , which they were not to doe , if they were utterly cast out or rejected , onely they were to estrange themselves from them , that is to say , not to have so much familiarity as before , or as with those that were not so disorderly or unruly , but yet admonish him as a brother still , and thus much shall suffice for this point , now thus stretched and tagged . now having found a rule out of gods word , by which we are to esteem and receive a member of the church , viz. the body of christ , ( lest we cast out or reject more lambs of christ then wee shall retaine sheep : ) in the next place it is requisite to know who ought to feed them , or bee their most publike teachers , ( for although the members of christ are all to bee helpfull each to other , that is , as the apostle commandeth , edifie one another ) yet the same apostle did ordaine publike preachers over the flocks , as we may see easily in timothy and titus , and divers other places , and that successively too , as i shall afterward shew in the point for the ordination of the ministers of the gospel : now for this , i will be brief , thus , they ought to be the teachers , that are best able , and true christians , according to the former rule in the former point , that is , those that are most knowing , and obedient to the will of god so known , according to the rule which god hath given us to judge by , and of those two properties neither ought to bee wanting , but if a man have in some good measure the latter , and have not the former , viz. knowledge , he then cannot give strong meat to any ; and if such a one be a teacher , we shall have but babes at the best , yet ( which is worst ) he will for the more part bee medling with the matters too high above his reach , and so lead those whom he teacheth to errours and heresies ( as we have too much experience of at this time . ) but some may demand , how if the preachers have knowledge ( in a competent degree ) and too little honesty , he will doe much hurt that way by his ill-example , for men live more by example then by precept , ( for the more part , ( if they bee very ignorant especially . ) to this i answer thus , briefly , were it not for the love of god to us , we should have neither knowledge nor honesty , neither the preachers nor hearers ; therefore we are to look to god in this point , more especially , for if those that are the people to be taught , do frame their lives according to that little measure of knowledge that god doth give them in faith and obedience in christ ; he then wil provide such as shall be both able and honest too , to be their guides and examples also ; however we may not choose a novice , 2 tim. 3. 6. for wee must take it as a curse of our god to us , when we want such as should be able and honest too , the scriptures of god do testifie thus much , & thus i prove it , when the people of israel did perversly sinne against their god , ( after long instruction and meanes of their edification in the will and word of god ) then he did threaten them , and said thus , by men of other tongues , and stammering lips , will i speak to this people , &c. as in esa. 28. 11. and in ezek. 3. 26. it is said thus , i ( said god ) will make thy tongue cleave to the roof of thy mouth , that thou shalt bee dumbe , and shalt not bee to them a reprover , for they are a rebellious house . these places are clear for this purpose , that god will send unable teachers to a people as a curse to them for their sins against him in time of plentiful knowledge : and for their sins he did at another time tell them that he would let them have as bad prophets in their lives and conversations , to be evil examples for them , see this in mich. 2. 11. these are the words , if a man walking in the spirit of falshood doe lye , saying , i will prophecy of wine and strong drinke , even he shall be the prophet of this people ; and in another place it is said , there shall be like people , like priest . and so much for to prove that , because of the peoples disobedience when they have the word of god taught them truly ; they shall have evill teachers as a curse to them , in the stead of good and fit guides : and now that god will give better teachers of his people , when they walke obediently to him , according to his will revealed in his word , is also as true ; for in a certaine place god promised to send them pastors that should teach them with knowledge and understanding . and when the people under king sauls government were well humbled , and brought down by his oppressing them ; then god heard their cry , and pityed them in their misery , and provided them a blessed guide and feeder of them with knowledge and understanding , viz. the kingly prophet david ; thus you may see , that it is the love of god to us , in giving us able teachers , the which wee shall have when wee live obediently to him with all our hearts , according to his will revealed in his word : and thus much shall serve for this point , viz. who ought to bee the publick teachers , and also some objections answered . and i have concluded , that those that are best able ought to bee the publick preachers of the word of god to the people . but now followeth in good order another point , and this is a speciall one too , and this point the independent party , ( for some congregations at least ) and almost all sectaries are against me in ; onely the presbyterialls are on my side ; and this point is concerning the proving , allowing , and ordaining these preachers for the work of this great ministration : i shall for this , pitch upon scriptures in the first place , and after that confirm the point by reasons , and my reasons will be strong i am sure ; this question is , who ought to ordain the preachers of the gospel . i answer , that chiefly and ordinarily ( at the least ) the preachers of the word of god ought to doe it : and the first scripture is act. 14. 23. and when they had ordained them elders in every church , and prayed with fasting , they commended them to the lord on whom they beleeved : for the places where they did ordaine them , you may see in the end of ver. 21. if you doubt whether these were preaching elders that the apostles did there ordain , i must say , that it is very likely they were : but if not , yet it makes for my point in hand , for if it belonged unto the apostles to ordain inferiour elders , then i am sure you will grant me the other , viz. that they did ordain the preaching elders , i can prove it out of other scriptures plainly , but i know you will not oppose me in this . but here is another objection , and that is this , although the apostles did it , yet we are not to follow that rule still , unlesse we had a command left unto us , so to doe for evermore successively . to this i answer , that what the apostles did then , was for our imitation in that particular , for they did not give or leave any other order or rule to us in the word of god , and therefore wee must say as paul said , whatseever was written , was written for our instruction . but i will proceed to other texts , titus 1. 5. to the end of ver. 9. these are the words , for this cause left i thee in cre●e , that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting , and ordain elders in every city , as i have appointed thee . that these were preaching elders which titus was to ordain ( or at least some of them ) is apparent in vers . 7. for those that in ver. 5. paul had called elders , he in this verse called bishops ; now in that titus was left to ordain those bishops , you may see a succession of the ordination of preachers of the word of god , by the preachers of the word of god ; and 2 tim. 2. 2. you may see what paul commanded timothy ; these are the words , the things that thou hast heard of mee among many witnesses , the same commit thou to faithfull men , who shall be able to teach others also . 1 tim. 5. 22. lay hands suddenly on no man ; neither be partaker of other mens sins , keep thy self pure ; here you may see a second succession of the ordination of the ministers of the word of god , by the ministers of the word of god , for now timothy must commit the doctrine or the word of god to others that he could find able and fit to teach others also : the word commit carries weight with it , and signifieth the leaving in trust ( as it were ) the word of god , to their dispensation to whom it was to be so committed ; here you may see that the common hearers were not to ordain the preachers of the word of god , and the true reason thereof is rendred in 2 tim. 3. 10. in these words , thou hast fully known my doctrine , &c. it seemeth paul knew well , that those that were best able in knowledge , were the fittest to ordain the preachers , and they were most knowing men , that were then the preachers of the word of god ; and farther paul gave him a rule whereby hee might know who were those fit men to bee the preachers of the word of god , as you may see in 1 tim. 3. to the end of ver. 13. whom in ver. 1. he called bishops , yea , he had characters given him , whereby he might know how to choose fit and able deacons also , as in ver. 8 , 9 , 10. are to be seen , and they did use to lay hands on them that they ordained for the ministery of the word of god at that time , as in 1 tim. 4. 14. & in chap. 5. 22. & 2 tim. 1. 6. at which time timothy had a speciall gift given him when paul ( or others with paul ) did ordain him to be a preacher of the gospel , and also in heb. 6. 2. alas , if every one may be permitted to preach that would doe it , we ●hen must needs have a babel , therefore they ought to be proved by the preachers of the gospel before they do preach . and now i demand of those that would have every congregation ordaine their own pastor or preacher , why those that are in the synod ( or ministers like them ) should not be the ordainers of men for to bee the preachers of the word of god , rather then those that are more ignorant by thousands of particulars in the word of god , and so many honest men there too : what , are they not so ? i say they are , and ablest , and honest too ; but put case , some should be thought otherwise , you know that no company of any sort is usually so intirely good , but that some may be defective ; what think you of your selves , may there not bee some worse then others ? nay , may there not be hypocrites and varlets too , if so , then you every way are worse then the learned , and therefore every way more unfit for to ordain men to be preachers of the word of god . now a touch of one thing more , and then i will passe to another point , and this is somewhat differing from the former , but i will joyn them together , and that is this ; the preachers of the word of god were superintendents of other preachers in the apostles time , and this i prove as followeth , 1 tim. 1. 3 , 4. where you may see that timothy was to charge some ( that were already the preachers of the gospel ) that they should teach no other doctrine , then that which they had received , &c. from the which some had already then swarved and turned aside to vaine janglings , as many doe now amongst us in these dayes ; and in 2 tim. 2. 14. you may read the like , these are those words , charge them before the lord , that they strive not about words to no profit , but to the subverting of the hearers ; these men , to whom this charge was to be given by timothy , are those men that are deciphered in ver . 2. of this chapter , that is to say , to those that were already in the ministry of the gospel , this authority the apostle sent to timothy to exercise towards those preachers , and did not send it unto those preachers directly , this power to give the charge was seated in timothy by the authority of the apostle : and truly if it may not bee somewhat like it now at the least , in some degree , we shall be in great danger to bee distorted upon all occasions , though i can well wish that some choise men from among the people may bee joyned with them too , in this superintendency ; for it will give the people great satisfaction from their feares of an unjust compulsion . this one thing more i will note as the great cause of our distractions , yea , the greatest of all , ( next the peoples sins in generall ) and that is the allowing of men , and ordaining them to be ministers of the gospel , before they were fitted for that great employment . alas , i have seen some in the pulpit that have thought a sentence in latin would have given such a box on the eare , that it would make an opposer of truth to have the staggers , and if he brought in a phrase of greek , it must needs beat him to the earth ; but if hee produced some scraps of hebrew , that would beat him into the earth , so deep , as that he could never rise more untill the generall day of resurrection ; although the matter bee poore and un●ound divinity , and his method as bad ; i am not against the knowledge in the tongues , and other liberall arts , but honor the learning of the same ; but if they are not better grounded ( or at least as well ) in divinity , what should then the pulpit doe with them ? poore silly ignorant people come to learn matter wherby they may be saved , and if the teacher be not well grounded in divinity , how can hee defend the ignorant from sophisticall and knavish foxes , and devouring wolves ? the next point which the separatists pretend to be unwarrantable in our ministers for to ordaine preachers of the gospel , is , that they are of the popes order , and receive their owne ordinations from him ; it being first and primarily received of him , and therefore ( he being the maintainer of idolatry ( from whom they had their ordination ) they cannot be the lawfull preachers of the word of god , and therefore ought not to bee the ordainers of the preachers of the gospel . this objection is like a remora who turns his belly upward , ( as is said ) opens his legs , or some such parts of his body , & claspeth about this goodly ship of ours , viz the church , to the hindering of us from arriving pleasingly and safely to our heavenly haven . but i will knock him off thus , first , you cannot prove that ( if in case they have their ordination from the pope ) the pope at first was absolutely an idolater , but that he then held the fundamentalls of the true gospel , though he then was received as the universall head of those that subjected themselves unto him : that this may appear a truth to you , i pray you take a view of a book called the apology of the protestants , written about the time of the massacre in france , dedicated to the king of navarre , in which you may see the canons of the pope and popes at first , and also those that had been made by succeeding popes since untill that time , and there you may observe that those canons that were made by the former popes , are so much different from those that have been made since , as that if he would hold himself to those first canons of those first popes , hee must then renounce his antichristianity and idolatry , and so joyn with us , and walk together to heaven , although it was a sin in him to assume that universall stile and power . but secondly , put case it had been so , yet this makes little for you , for if they see the evill that he persisted in , and yet themselves hold the fundamentall truths of the gospel of christ , ( though perhaps tainted in some particulars ) and so part from him to hold to christ , what is or may be objected against them for their so doing ? shal we condemn them for their forsaking the badnes of the pope , and adhering to the goodnes of the truth of christ ? god forbid ; nay , i will say more in their behalf , they have converted ( instrumentally ) many thousands to the true faith by their ministery , and built them up in it also , which is a sign that they were true ministers of the gospel of christ , and thus much the apostle avoucheth in these words in one of his epistles , 1 cor. 9. 2. if i am not an apostle to others , yet doubtlesse i am unto you , for the seale of our apostleship are yee in the lord , &c. it seems there were some such jesuiticall tricks in some of his adversaries , at that time , who were subtle prevaricators , or dangerous sectaries ; from such cunning foxes , and barking dogs , good lord deliver us ; i condemn not all , there may be honest men , but yet deluders must needs bee there ; and so much for this point , with this conclusion , viz. where we had one was bad before , if this remain , you 'l have a score . now seeing i have found out a church , according to the rule the apostle hath left us to esteeme and judge the church by , ( for secret things belong unto the lord : ) and also who are fittest to feed , or to be the preachers of the word of god to it : and who are to ordaine those that ought to be their preachers ( at least chiefly and ordinarily ) with other points ( as younger sisters to those chief points : ) now it follows in the next place for me , to view out a habitation for them , viz. where it is fittest they should dwell , or in what order , manner , or fit accommodation they should be in . i shall be very briefe in this , especially if i doe not meet with some ravening wolves in the way , who perhaps will think that i am labouring to prevent them of their prey . in brief thus , they ought to live neare together , both shepheard and sheep , for conveniency , that so in the first place they may have more familiar acquaintance one with the other , thereby performing neighbourly duties each to other , knowing thereby so much the better each others wants , and accordingly accommodating themselves the better together in the more frequent exercise of edifying themselves in the truth , by the admonishing of themselves in the principles of religion , ( though not in things too high for their intellectuall faculties , ( for that more chiefly is the publick pastors duty , ) and also in the accommodating themselves in these outward comforts of the things of this life . and it is fit that their preachers of pastors should live amongst them also , that so they may the better view and know the state of their severall flo●ks , that they may give them their meat in due season , as they are able to digest it , ( for some must have milk being babes ) and some ( at some times ) may be able to concoct and digest stronger meat ; and also that he may keep out wolves the better , that would devour the flock ; and theeves that would rob them of their fleeces , and especially in cold weather , viz. when they cannot well spare it ; and that they may the better maintain their own pastors or teachers , that so they may have a maintenance for themselves and their families , and provide some portions for their children , yea , leave their wives some better maintenance after their death , ( if they chance to survive them ) and not leave them in want to their grief and disgrace ; yea , their pastors or teachers should have to give to those that want , viz. to the poore especially , that so he may bee a good example to his flock , and so be well incouraged to take care of his flock with joy , and not with grief ; because that will be unprofitable for themselves , viz. the flock . not like some that would have them live anywhere scattered abroad as sheep without a shepherd among them , somewhat like some in some times , whose pastors would have them come from every quarter ; yea , and to allure them to them from other their faithful watchers and feeders that are abler then themselves , yea , draw as many as they can get from all parts , under pretence that their pastors are not able to teach them truth , nor that they are lawfully called to be preachers of the gospel unto them , and so discourage them in the ministery of the gospel , & deprive them of a maintenance for their livelihood , and their wives and children ; they thus occasioning such people with fair words and insinuations to approach too often ( as is said ) to their boles or basins or such like thing , or some other thing in stead thereof ; which if this be , and be permitted long time together , they will ( as perhaps some of them hope ) ere long have as great sums of mony , as some whom they have condemned for having too much . and further , what ( think you ) will become of the residue of the poor sheep , left in all those parishes , from whom these were thus allured ? they must starve , for their pastors or teachers have not wherewith to live , therefore if they stay there still , many of them may starve , and hunger you know is a sharp sauce , surely they must leave the rest of the flock , and then that remnant of the flock must starve for want of spirituall food ; and this wil occasion them to be more wicked , to the dishonour of god , and their own damnation , and the perverting of the whole kingdome . judge now if this way of the separatists be not a dangerous way , thus dividing without just cause , doubtlesse this is a sin that will be closely laid to their charge that are the workers of it ; therefore if you will doe it still , cause them then to allow to their own pastors that are able and honest ( in some competent degree ) their own maintenance , and this you may easily do , by not suffering them to follow you , or be of your company , unlesse they will doe this their duties to their own pastors or teachers , that so you may not be thought to have silver coloured fingers , and golden coloured hearts . but me thinks i spy a monster now appearing , arising out of the bottomlesse pit , with a foxes head , and a crocodiles heart ; its heart had a dark superscription on it , hard to be read ( but that god gives some some ability in times of great danger to discern it ) but looking wishfully upon it , i discerned it to bee anagrammatticall , and then i knew how to read it , & the word was ( as i had put the letters in their due place ) covetousnesse ; as for his head , i did read presently what that did portend or foreshew , i knew there must be subtlety , i bethought my selfe of this mysterie , and thus interpreted it ( summarily . ) this monsters heart whose name is covetousnesse ( in the mystery ) doth imploy his foxes head to prevent this fair accommodation of the church , which i am now working with my pen , and me thought he presented to me an objection , to prevent my diverting of him of his ungodly ( and kingdom-destroying ) gain ; and that was this as followeth , viz. you cannot prove that there is any promise that a nationall church is to be anywhere , at least not now under the gospel ; upon this me thought i soon understood his head , and the anagram of his heart also , and then i compared them together , and easily and truly knew him to be one of baalzebubs crew ; and from that conclusion i quickly drew another , and that was this , he ( that is ) this monster , under pretence of a more purified church , ( which i wish also ( but with a true heart in the sight of god ) would in pleading against a nationall church , overthrow parochiall churches , otherwise he could never have hopes to obtaine his desire . then i bethought of what i had before concluded concerning the church of christ , what it doth consist of in the largest sense , and that is this , those that make an open profession of faith to bee saved by the merits of jesus christ , and declare it in the partaking of his ordinances , and frame their lives accordingly , viz. do not habitually act capital sins , though it may sometimes fall out ( through more then ordinary temptation ) they be , as it were , overtaken now and then , as david was sometime one way , and others some another way ; these we are to esteeme the church of god , although perhaps they may not have grace in their hearts , nor yet be saved ; but this is the rule that we ought to be guided by , to esteem of a supposed member of christs mysticall body , untill hee declareth the contrary by wicked words , or more sinfull deeds ; for secret things doe belong to god onely , and the strict knowledge of the heart is one of those secrets . thus when i had noted againe this point , i then thought , and was fully satisfied , that christ hath more members amongst us , in most parishes , then this monster did pretend , although by reason he hath much hindered the setling of the government of the church with us in the presbyteriall way ( or at least very neare that way . ) many for want of a good discipline and laws to restrain vice , be lame in their practise of godlines , &c. i then adventured as a lion ( me thought ) to encounter this monster , and i took the way which my saviour did in the wildernesse , viz. it is written psal. 33. 12. blessed is the nation whose god is the lord , &c. this was spoken of the jewes then the people of god : gen. 22. 18. in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth bee blessed : gen. 18. 18. all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in abraham . i know some will not be satisfied fully with these texts of scripture , and i know their objections , therefore i will produce some other , although i know these are for the same purpose . another scripture saith , that nations shall flow to thee , viz. to christ . but let us see what the lord saith by the mouth of his prophet esay , chap. 55. ver. 5. these are the words , thou shalt call a nation whom thou knowest not , and nations that knew not thee , shall run unto thee , viz. to christ ; he did not mean that whole nations should , or would run to christ singularly generall , viz. not every particular man or woman should bee converted to christ ; but that the nation should in the more generall profession embrace the doctrine of christ ; and many of them in truth of heart , as the jews did at that time , when david the kingly prophet spake those words now quoted out of the 33 psalm aforesaid , though there be many rebellious corahs , and other sinfull murmuring people and wicked transgressors amongst these , as there was amongst those jews , as they were in the way to canaan land ( the type of heaven . ) and now me thinks this monster is stopped in his aime and hopes ; i therefore now will proceed to another point , as i have proved it by reason and scripture , that divisions in the divine exercises of our religion , is naught and dangerous to the state of christians : and also that it is a great happinesse to bee united together in a warrantable uniformity in the divine ordinances of our religion ; now i come to prove more particularly what speciall decrees and ordinances the apostles did ordain and appoint for the churches of god in the primitive time , the better to accommodate them in a warrantable uniformity , and thus i prove it , acts 15. 23. to 31 , & 4● . compared with chap. 16. v. 4. in ver. 23. wee may see the apostles and elders , and brethren sent greeting to the brethren in antioch , in syria , and cilicia , ( these were divers churches ; ) and in ver. 29. you may see what the decrees were that they had decreed for them , or at least what some of the decrees were , the which were for ( all ) those churches . and in chap. 16. paul and silas going through the cities , delivered them the decrees for to keep that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at jerusalem . here wee may see , that all those cities had but one sort of decrees , as is more then likely , for the apostles did ordain for antioch , syria , and cilicia , but one sort of necessary things as in ver. 28 , 29. of chap. 15. doth appeare plainly ; the which paul and the rest delivered to those in antioch , as in ver. 30. appeareth , and afterward they came to syria and cilicia , as in ver. 41. you may see , and those ordinances did much confirme the churches , as you may see in the last words of this 41. ver. aforesaid ; and in ver. 5. of chap. 6. also ; surely uniformity in the truth is a meanes of confirmation and unity of affection ; and in 1 cor. 7. 17. thus ordain i in all churches ; in this place the apostle resolves some questions to the corinthians , and putteth them and other churches into one uniformity , as is cleare by the words of the text , viz. thus ordain i in ( all ) churches , and so in 1 cor. 16. 1 , 2. as i have given order to the churches of galatia , even so doe yee ; there was a uniformity in providing for the poor . thus we may see the blessed apostle did endeavour uniformity in all the churches of god , i wish the like practice were amongst us in these dayes , viz. uniformity in godly wayes . but some may demand a question , if the apostle did not sometime in some cases give leave to christians in case of conscience for want of true knowledge in some particulars , to doe , or not doe . it 's true , he did so , but not in those things that were of any danger to the state of the church or churches , for those that were weak in knowledge for the present , that they might not sin against their conscience in eating of herbs , by him that did think he might not eat flesh ; & likewise to celebrate service to god upon some speciall day or dayes rather then in some other days , ( provided that they did not doe it as having respect to the old types or shadows ) that did foreshew the comming of christ , the substance , lest they either be intangled with justification by works , or else in stead of relying on the true christ already come , should ( as the jews do now ) look for a jesus to come , as hee is already come : but this liberty the apostle did not confirm to be as a law alwayes for them to rest on , as not to seek for better assurance of knowledge therein , for hee at that time did shew the very legs of that statue , in these words , viz. he that eateth herbes is weake , and so said he of him that should bee opinionated about the observation of a day ; not that which before was to be observed as a type , gal. 4. 10. but that we may set apart some days more especially then others for divine exercises , for the apostle had done so himself very likely , setting apart the first day of the week , as in 1 cor. 16. 2. and as you may perceive by their usuall meeting upon the lords day , and other dayes so often spoken of in the scriptures . but what is all this to those things that are now in these our dayes so much pleaded for ? alas , those things were but flea-bitings , to them that some would have now adayes ; shall we give way to such things as are so materiall , as will ruinate the state of christians ? god forbid , the government of the church is of a higher nature , the apostles did not give toleration in such great matters ; this is the staffe of bands , the which if it be broke , i am sure the other staffe called beauty , wil soon be all to shivers . if all that plead tendernesse of conscience may have liberty as they desire , every one that is without grace will take up that plea ; do you not think that a very varlet , or peevish , or perverse man , out of a malignant disposition will plead liberty of conscience to act meer knavery ? surely yes . i condemne not all , but if men may bee allowed to plead , and in pleading obtain liberty as they list , you will hold them in no good duty : to speak plain , and short , hee that hath been a professor of christianity any competent time , and yet is pleading for liberty of conscience against those things that common capacity can fathome , is either a vain professor , or else his teacher or guider is to be much suspected ; and i fear such leaders teach not sincerely , to shew what is the truth in those things , but hold men blind for their own advantage , especially if it bee any long time together . but take this for a rule , that if we find a man that is apprehensive in matters of divinity in the generall , among many things , and yet is defective in his confession of some truths that are as easie , and of as low a nature , as those he confesseth to be truth , and sensible too , and thus remaineth a long time together , such a one is ( ungodly ) wilfull in his way , against his own conscience , and ought to be dealt withall by force , for he hath an obstinate or malignant spirit ; and you may know , that after a man have persisted in sinne wilfully against his conscience , god doth then usually blind the eyes of such a one ; yea , sometime the very children of god have some lower degrees of this blinding ( for a time ) but the froward much more . these things considered , wee have cause to dislike like confusion , and love a godly uniformity , imitating the apostles in the same . but i suppose many that plead so much for diversity of government , ( which is confusion ) doe not beleeve that it is the best way for christians so to be ; but that indeed there is some greater matter lyeth couchant in this heap of confusion . and in plaine english , i think it is a blind uncharitablenesse in many , mixt with malignity in their intellectuall faculty and heart together ; i would not have caused my pen to have drawne this curtaine , at this time , but that mee thought i heard one at my elbow , longing to heare something of the cause ( in some measure ) of our kingdoms confusion ; for some things may be accounted and esteemed less worthy of so much striving for to maintain this confusion on the sectaries part , then some wil allow of , although we have no expresse command for it ; if you think otherwise , why then did the apostle st. paul deliver some things in such generall termes , as he did in 1 cor. 14. 41. in these words , let every thing be done decently and in order ? it seemeth paul knew well , that those who had any measure of true knowledge , and true sincerity together , ( far from hypocrisie ) might be able to judge what was fit in some things of a low nature , without any strict precept for every particular wagging ones finger ; 1 cor. 14 43. god is not the author of confusion but of peace , as in ( all ) churches of the saints , and chap. 11. 44. yea , from the 6. to the end of the 15. these are some of the words , judge in your selves , &c. and phil. 4. 8. are these words , viz whatsoever things are comely , &c. and so rom. 14. 17. these are those words , the kingdome of god is not meat and drinke , but righteousnesse , peace , and joy in the holy ghost ; for hee that in these things serveth christ , is acceptable to god , and approved of all ( good ) men . it seemeth that this apostle had no such intent , as to have them hazard their peace , or endanger themselves to a civill war , nor give an occasion to a forain enemy to break in upon us , nor yet to hinder those that are without , to stand off the further from being of our true religion , to their everlasting damnation . neither is it necessary to let men alone in their separations and divisions , for such matters as the government of the church , ( for that 's of a high nature ) lest their leaders ( viz. some of them ) do make the divisions so great ( in time ) that there will be no power to reclaim them : therefore those things that you know not , and therefore have scruple in your conscience concerning them ; you should ( to satisfie your selves therein ) ask of your teachers : but because it hath been so long time your weaknesse , and yet is so still , it doth cause some to think , you are either wilfully obstinate , ( not all so ) or else your pastors ( many of them ) doe forbear in policy from revealing them unto you , lest you should forsake them and joyn with those that are on the presbyteriall way , which ( for the more part ) are the most knowing men : and truly it is a great sign that the sectaries are the weakest in knowledg in divinity , because ( as it is reported ) most of the women-kind bendeth that way . if these things bee not so , then i will tell you what the next apprehension is , ( as many say and absolutely conclude ) and that is this , there are some preachers that lead the silly weake people in this way into by-corners , because they want ability to give them strong meat , or little better then such as is fit for babes , and so occasion the building our babel of confusion with the content they have in their boles and basins , &c. ( as some think and say ) to the undoing of the parishioners lawfull pastors , and occasioning and hindering those ministers that are able for the work of the ministery of the gospel from undertaking the cure of soules , and perhaps to the undoing of those so blindly led by them , and the starving of the soules of those inhabitants that remain behind in those parishes too . i know what objection some subtle head will make to this my latter assertion , but i will prevent him , because i would not have him shew forth openly his weaknesse or subtlety to his shame , or else his wickednesse to his open condemnation ; his answer is this , those people that have a mind to come out and heare the word of god , may , if they will come and follow us , and heare us preach in our owne houses , and sometimes in some other places also , and all of them may pay us as others doe for their comming to us , and hearing of us ; and we will have one free way for it , viz. a common offering . but i answer , by this meanes of their alluring them , to their private houses , &c. they keep themselves from shewing what their inabilities are from them that are more judicious in many points which they teach in private ; yea , and by those points , so in private taught , they hold these silly lambs to them as they list for their owne sinister ends ; making them believe , that those points are of such concernment , that if they desert from them , as they themselves with mouth ( though perhaps not with heart ) do teach , they then are in exceeding great danger , and then the poore lambes in stead of safe refuge , are held in the wolves clawes ; i hope better of some . and thus much shall serve for this point , and i hope all honest men will joyn with me : some doe invent malignity , with breezes in their eares ; the truth his mouth doth so untie , of god he has no feares . now in the next place i will treat upon another point in difference between the presbyterialls and some of the sectaries , and they are called led antinomians : i shall pitch upon scripture to confute these , who hold this cursed tenet ; i told you that the last monster ( as i thought ) did arise out of the bottomlesse pit from baalzebub , but i think this is that old dragon himself ; neverthelesse i beleeve , some honest people might be intangled in this error also , because this hath been a time of difference , in many things among the learned ; the first scripture is , acts 21. 20. compared with ver. 24. in ver. 20. you may see , that the jewes that were beleevers were zealous of the law ; and in ver. 21. you may easily collect , that they still observed the old ceremonial rites and customes from which paul did disswade them in teaching ; but in ver. 24. you may see it clearly , that paul observed the old morall law still , for there you may perceive that some had given a false information of pauls not observing the law , ( as is very likely ) the which is by those jewes mentioned in this verse , and confessed to be an untruth , being now better informed , for these are the words of the text , at the latter end of it , all may know that these things whereof they were informed concerning thee , are nothing , but that then thy self also walkest orderly , and keepest the law . now paul had alwayes preached down the ceremoniall law : that were but types and figures of christ , &c. therefore it was the morall law : and truly , why not to be observed by us under the gospel , as well as by the beleevers before christs comming in the flesh ? provided we observe it but as those beleevers did , for they used it but as a guide to live honestly by , for abraham , isaac , and all the servants of god recorded in the scriptures of truth are said to be justified by faith , and therefore god commanded the jewes that were beleevers in the promise of everlasting life , by faith in christ , in the time of the prophet malachi , to remember the law of moses , which he had commanded in horeb ; these are the words of that text , remember yee the law of moses which i commanded him in horeb for all israel , &c. & rom. 7. 14. we know the law is spirituall , saith the apostle there , viz. it is suitable to the pure spirit of god , by the which our spirits should be qualified and guided to thoughts , words , and deeds , and therefore in matth. 5. 17 , 18. our saviour christ forbiddeth us to have so much as a thought , that the law or the prophets should be destroyed , but shall continue till all things be fulfilled , ( and that will not be till heaven and earth be passed away , &c. ) now that he meant the written law in this text is plaine , for the words are , vntill heaven and earth passe , the law shall not passe ; but if hee had meant the law onely written in the hearts of the godly , darkly , ( for so it is but darkly in the best ) then he would not have said , till heaven and earth passe ; for the law spirituall in the hearts of those that are to be saved shall be more perfect in them for evermore . and beside , to put you out of all doubt , see 1 cor. 9. 21. where paul confesseth ingenuously , that hee was then under the law to christ , even then when hee was a beleever in christ for salvation ; yea , as in rom. 7. 22. hee confessed hee did delight in the law of god , after the inner man , but even then there were some that did slander him in this very point , ( as is more then likely ) as you may easily perceive in rom. 3. 31. by his speech there as by way of vindication ; the words are these , doe we then make void the law through faith ▪ god forbid , yea , we establish the law ; thus you may see that he did not null the moral law , by his preaching of faith , nor yet by his beleeving it , therefore o yee antinomians detest your cursed tenet , for the best of us doe see our sins but dimly in our selves ; and although the more a man is sanctified the more hee can discerne the remnants of his sins in him , yet he cannot see them all : and you know the lesse a man is sanctified , the darker he is in his judgement in the knowledge of sin ; to speak plainly thus , we have all ( even the best of us ) need of a guide , for god hath ordained outward meanes , as well as inward , for the edifying of his saints ; and if we retain the law for a looking-glasse to shew us our deformities , and not to be justified by it , what hurt then is there in the retaining it ? it is to us not a curse but a blessing ; but if we reject it , and cast it off from using it , i am sure we shall thereby procure not a blessing but a curse , therefore beware lest you have unawares admitted of some jesuiticall spirits . i will note one thing more out of that in mat. 5. 17. viz. that our saviour joynes the law and the prophets together , and saith , that he was not come to destroy the law or the prophets ; why will you understand one of them in the spirituall sense onely , and the other in the literall onely ? for i hope you will all conclude , that he spake of the prophets in the literall sense , that their prophesies that are written shall last no longer then the end of the world ; therefore it is the law also that is written that our saviour meant , and not the law written in the hearts of his children ; and i hope that in 1 cor. 9. 21. and also that in rom. 7. & 22. will fully satisfie any honest man , that is capable of babes meat ; but i feare they hold another dangerous tenet , which this latter cursed tenet doth produce , viz. god is not angry with his children , though they act or commit such actions or deeds which god by his morall law hath forbid , as adultery , or fornication , or theft , or idolatry , and the rest ; and consequently , that a man needs not repent after any such vile actions . to this i answer , that god is angry with them when they so transgresse against him , and also did usually afflict them sore ; see for this , deut. 9. 20. the lord was angry with aaron , even to destroy him , in making the golden calf , although he were occasioned therunto , through fear of the peoples doing him some hurt ; this evill deed of aaron you may see in exod. 32. 21 , 22 , & 23. 24 , 25. deut. 4. 21 , 22. moses said , that the lord was angry with him for their sakes , for they occasioned him to be rash and unadvised in his words ; as in psal. 106. 32 , 33. and hee smote the rock in a rash anger , and therefore god was angry with him , deut. 3. 26. & 2 chron. 19. 1. therefore is wrath upon thee from before the lord ; for my part , i doe conclude with saint paul , and say , i am under the law to christ , 1 cor. 9. 21. for he , in ( almost all ) his epistles brings some of the morall law against them , dehorting them from sins contained in it ▪ as for this morall law , it brings to us no curse , that rule may still us awe , and we be ne'r the worse . now in the next place ( having found a law by the which we ought to walk by as a guide to us ) we are to encounter with another enemy , and this is one that would run where he pleaseth , and doe what he list without controule , and this i thought came so fierce as though hee came from bedlam , for he seemed to be a stark mad atheist , for he ran against his captain , reason , and his lievtenant both together ; the points of divine threats hee laboured to blunt , and nothing must restrain him , neither must he be punished for any of his mad and unruly deeds ; he will obey no law , but what he out of his inherent devillish inclination thinketh fittest , and yet he ( being blind ) will not bee restrained from dashing himself in pieces : i knew not how , or which way to meddle with him at the first , untill i heard of a pair of stocks , a cage , a gaole , and a jibbet , and then i began to walke a little nearer him , remembring what ( as it is said ) a champion once did with a spear ( though on hors-back ) his name was called george for england , and when i came neare him , i intending to joyn battail with him , ( as hee thought ) he began to pause , being almost weary and out of breath ; so then i began to endeavour to perswade him to a fair and right understanding to the yeelding to be ruled by some wholsome restraint of correction , alledging the authority of heaven against him ; my first allegation was deut. 25. 1 , 2. if there bee a controversie between men , and they come into judgement , that the judges may judge them ; then they shall justifie the righteous , and condemn the wicked . and it shall be , that if the wicked man be worthy to be beaten , that the judge shall cause him to lie down , and to be beaten before his face , according to his fault , by a certain number of stripes ; and in deut. 21. 18. it is thus written , if a man have a stubborn and rebellious son which will not obey the voice of his father , or the voice of his mother ; and then when they have chastened him , will not hearken unto them , then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him , and bring him out to the elders of the city , and unto the gate of his place ; and they shall say unto the elder● of his city , this our son is stubborn and rebellious , he will not obey our voice , he is a glutton and a drunkard , and all the men of the city shall stone him with stones that he die ; so shalt thou put evill away from among you , and all israel shall heare and feare ; and in exod. 32. 26 , 27 , 28. you may see that moses called a host of men to put idolaters to death , ( for those idolaters were many at that time ) they had a calfe-god made of gold ; and 2 chron. 15. 15. whosoever would not seek the lord god of israel , was to be put to death , ( by a covenant which they then made ) therefore they had the use of the magistrate at that time also : and surely a compulsive law to make people come to the ordinances of god ( in a kingdom where there is a power seated in the magistrate , hereditary , or otherwise ( among a people , especially that do profess the religion of god , as these in 2 chron. did ) ought so much the more to be used & put in execution , as those laws were in the time of asa , as in the place before quoted ; & so much you may easily conclude from that of our saviour , luk. 14. beginning at v. 16. and so forward to the end of v. 24. for the jewes being invited to the great supper , made light of it ; for which cause they were rejected of the king , viz god the father ; upon which rejection we gentiles were , and are invited , and in case we be unwilling to come to the supper , the servants have power put into their hands to compell men to come into this feast , ( that is to say ) the fatted calfe ; for these are the words of the text , go out into the high wayes and hedges , and compell them to come in , that my house may bee filled , viz. that they may partake of the ordinances of salvation , and yet all these had not on the wedding garment , as another of the evangelists informeth us , there was no strict choyce to bee made of all that mixt company that were in the high-ways and hedges ( at first ) before they were partakers of the ordinances of god , ( so to speak in the spiritual sense . ) if any object , that st. paul in acts 19 made a separation , and therfore we may also separate from them , and not punish . i answer , that paul had no power to compel the unbeleevers to submit themselves to him , neither had he power to punish them for any fault , for hee , and those that were then converted had not the lawfull power of superiority ; but if the principal powers of that people had been beleevers , then they might have punished the people for not obeying their commands in matters of the gospel , as well as they then would have done it for any other misdemenor , neither would the apostle have forbad them ; but when a man comes into a strange place , he may not exercise any authority of superiority , it belongs to the magistrate , and if the magistrate or magistrates , ( in whom the power is seated , together with the chief part of the people ) will not comply with the gospel of god , nor be favourable to the beleevers in christ , but oppose , and be injurious to the professors of salvation by faith in christ , then may the saints separate from the unbeleevers ; and we may see in the booke of nehemiah , ch. 13. v. 25. that nehemiah did not onely curse the jewes with the curse of god , ( that is , wished them some punishment ) but he also smote them , and plucked off their haire , &c. if we were but so wise , as to note the end wherefore punishment was ordained and appointed by god , to be exercised upon the bodies of men , ( for the more part ) we might soon see more clearly then blinde men doe ; for these are the words at the ends of many texts of the holy scriptures , viz. all israel shall heare and feare , and doe no more so : and again , so shall you put away evill from among you . but i wish with my heart and soule , that our punishing or afflicting were such as god appointed by moses , at least , in most particulars ; corporall punishment was then the command of god ( most ordinarily ) and that without respect of persons , or very little favour to those that were higher then others , ( amongst those that were under the king : ) surely men would more feare and be ashamed of bodily punishment , then of purse-punishment , for he that hath this worlds goods , maketh very light of paying a competent sum of mony for his offence ; but if ( as god commanded ) they might bee otherwise afflicted , viz. on their bodies , without much partiality , they would forsake their sins sooner ; but this would then hinder the filling of many purses , & therefore me thinks i hear their owners crying out against me : but if this were amended , i hope many that would have now no civill magistrates , would then easily conclude with the apostle st. paul , and yeeld obedience to principality and powers , as in tit. 3. 1. & rom. 13. 1 , 2. and if they will not bee a terror to good works , but to the evill workers , and will bee protectors of those that doe well , then i hope many will obey for conscience sake , as in ver. 3 , 4 , 5. o that all had hearts to say with me this truth . amen . the next point that hinders us and the independents , and divers sectaries from joyning in a uniformity in the government of the church , is the images , pictures , yea , and the monuments of idolatry , because they are not more fully taken away , the which causeth them to doubt , that idolatry will increase in this our kingdome again , ere long time be . but for this , i will answer them thus , the parliament hath made a good progresse already against them , and therefore i hope well for time to come , that there will be some farther progresse in this particular ; and for my part i will willingly joyne with you in this point , and i hope to produce clear scriptures for it too , for unlesse we have a speciall care to keep idolatry out , i know the wrath of god will fall upon us , for that is the sin which our saviour christ himselfe did say would bring desolation : my first scripture , is deut. 7. 25. burn the images , covet not the silver nor gold that is upon them , &c. and chap. 9. 21. moses burnt the golden calfe with fire , and stamped him , and ground him small even to dust , and cast the dust thereof into the river , and made the people drinke it , ( in a holy indignation against them , and the golden calfe , as you may see in exod. 32. 20. ) and in 2 king. 18. 4. was the like zeale of hezekiah , in breaking in pieces the brazen serpent , the which was set up for a good use and end at the first , ( but that the people had afterwards idolatrized to it , and therefore it was broken , to take away , or cut off the occasion of idolatry in future time : ) and he called it nehushtan , viz. a piece of brasse , in way of detestation , &c. so that we shall wel enough agree herein , and i hope all honest men wil say amen to this ; for see ezek. 43. 7 , 8 , 9. and there also you may learne , that god would not be appeased towards those jews , unlesse the carkasses of those kings that had been idolaters were taken away , which then lay there as monuments , &c. another point which those that divided from us are afraid of very much , is this , viz. lest idolatry be occasioned to be in this kingdom , by reason of the permitting of idolaters to live amongst us ; and some peoples marrying with those that are idolaters ; and truly that is some cause to be feared : yet wee have good grounds of hope to the contrary too , for much is amended in this kinde already , we may expect a farther care will be taken herein , by the chiefe eyes of this our israel , for it is a dangerous sin , as we may prove by scripture and experience too : we will produce them as followeth , the first is exod. 34. 12 , 13 , 14 , 15 , 16. in this place you may see that the parents of those people there mentioned , viz. the jewes , might not take the daughters of the idolaters , ( that were idolaters ) to be their sons wives , nor give their daughters to be wives to their sons , as you may see in deut. 7. 3 , 4. and therefore those were to be drove out of the land from the people of god , as you may see in exod. 23. 31 , 32 , 33. but the people would not doe as god had commanded them , but mixed themselves amongst them , and ( too soon ) learned their works , as you may see in numb. 25. 2 , 3 , 4. and the lord was so fiercely angry with them for this their so doing , that hee spake to moses to take the heads of those people , and hang them up against the sun , that the fierce anger of the lord might be turned away from israel ; i pray you see the place . and by this their mixing with them they learned their works , as you may see in psal. 106. 34 , 35 , 36. and ahab was forwarded in idolatry , by marrying of a daughter of a zidonian king , for which cause the lord sent a sore famine , as you may see in 1 kings 16. 30 , 31. it is such a bewitching sin , that even wise solomon himself was led and occasioned to it by such marriage , as you may see in 1 kings 1. 2 , 3 , 4. and therefore he lost ten tribes of his kingdom from his son afterwards for it . thus we see how prevalent a thing it is to be mixed with idolaters , but more especially to have a wife lie in his bosome that is an idolater ; and see what severity nehemiah used to the jews in his time for this sin , even for such marriages ; he did separate them again , and pulled them by the haire , and smote them for it also , even for this their sinne , as in nehem. 13. 23. to the end of that chapter . doubtlesse his heart cannot be right with god , that liketh idolaters no worse , then to take of them to be his bosome friend , and especially in marriage ; and popish idolaters are worse then those ; if any will say that the papists are not idolaters : to this i answer , they are worse then many other idolaters ; and thus i close against them : first , their images are idols , which they bow unto , and therefore their worship is idolatry , see 2 chron. 33. 7. if they say they doe not worship the image , but that they worship god by that image ; i say they lie : 1 they cannot make a resemblance of god . and 2 they cannot prove that ever god commanded any such manner of worship . 3 god hath forbid the making of such images throughout the holy scriptures , but hath commanded his servants to break them down ; and if you look in zeph. 1. 5. you may see the jews had intended some such hodge-podge , for they worship the lord , and yet they would sweare by their malchom too ; and you may read , 2 kings 17. 41. that the israelites at that time are said to feare the lord , and yet they then served their images too , where you may see clearly , that those jews pretended to worship god by way of those images ; and this is just so as our papists do plead for their idolatrous worship , or worship by images ; and so in many places in that chapter aforesaid are the like passages : where you may see also , that the lord threatens them for it ; yea , those in zephany 1. aforesaid , are threatened to be cut off , as in the former part of that first chapter you may see , in deut. 4. god forbad the making of any resemblance of him , and tells them by moses , that they saw no manner of similitude , in the day the lord spake with them in horeb , &c. lest they should corrupt ●hemselves , and make a graven image , the similitude of any figure , the ●ikenesse of male or female , or the likenesse of beast , fowle , fish , or ●reeping thing , or sun , moon , or stars , or host of heaven , and so they ●hould be driven to worship them , and serve them ; i pray observe the word , driven , viz. god will deliver such a one up to the power of sa●an , and so become a worshipper of the image it self : and truly it is the onely way to become an idolater : first , to invent a similitude of god , and make it accordingly ; and then worship god by it ; and after that to worship and adore the thing it selfe ; and history doth declare thus much to us , as we may read in the book of wisdome , chap. 14. ver. 12 , 13 , 14. to the end of ver. 20. now if we have cause to beware of idolaters , then much more of popish idolaters , for they are more dangerous then those former idolaters were , for these do more persecute the true servants of god , then those idolaters did ; these professe they do god good service in slaying of us the true servants of god , as our saviour foretold , and we always have found it to be true , by all their treacherous and murtherous plots ; yea , they are so much the more dangerous , because ( that although they call themselves christians in way of dissimulation ) they call us hereticks , and our religion heresie too ; and therefore wee ought to bee more wary of them , then of other idolaters , for all the devils in hell cannot devise a more dangerous people and religion then they , and theirs is , therefore it is good to lay out some of their tenets , by the which we may see them the more clearly to bee the doctrine of devills , leading to damnation . and thus i do begin briefly , they hold that there is a purgatory , or a place to purge us of our sins , after this life , so that if wee bee not the true servants & children of god in this life , yet notwithstanding we may be there made capable of everlasting salvation in heaven : the which will nourish all men in sin that so beleeveth ; for if men be perswaded that there is another place after their death to prepare them for heaven , then they will live here as they list , and so be damned : but to what end is the doctrine of faith and sanctification so much preached in this life , both by the prophets , our saviour , his apostles , and succeeding ministers ; and why is dives complaining in hell , ( so to speak ) if this be a truth ; those that are not converted in this life , shall not be acknowledged by christ after this life ended , he will then say to them , goe yee cursed into everlasting fire , prepared for the devil and his angels . secondly , that images of god and saints are to bee worshipped . thirdly , that prayers to saints departed are to be made , and their intercession to be required . fourthly , that there is a propitiatory sacrifice to be offered daily in the masse for the sinnes of the quick and dead . fifthly , that a man may merit heaven by his good works . sixthly , that it is a mortall sin to read the scripture , ( but by the popes dispensation . ) seventhly , that their clergy ought to preach in an unknown tongue . eightly , that if the pope do pronounce a man to be a saint , he then is one , and must be so . ninthly , that there is a vertue in their water with which they baptize their infants , that doth conjure the evill spirits out of them , putting oyle upon them , and salt and spittle in their mouths . tenthly , that the pope cannot erre in his judgement or decrees . 11 that the laity are not to drink the blood of christ in the sacrament , viz. the wine . 12 that those are hereticks that have recourse to the hebrew and greek tongues . 13 they represent god the father in the similitude of an old man . 14 they represent god the son sometimes like a lambe , &c. they may as well make a rock , a brasen serpent , a pillar in a cloud , &c. 15 they resemble the holy ghost like a dove , and why not as cloven tongues , as fire ? but as the holy ghost saith by the prophet esay , 46. 5. to whom will ye liken me that i may be like him ? 16 they pray to the crosse blasphemously , in these words , haile crosse our only hope , give to the godly righteousnesse , and to the guilty pardon : yea , all that passe by it must worship it , otherwise they are liable to be punished . 17 they offer cakes to the picture of the virgin mary , and worship it . 18 bonaventure hath transformed the psalter of david , to the honor of the virgin mary , changing god into goddesse , and lord into lady , and where it is said by david , praise the lord , by him it is said , praise the lady ; and for , trust in the lord , trust in the lady ; and in his 35 psalm are these words , incline the countenance of god upon us , and compell him to have mercy upon us . 19 bellarmine affirmed , that if the pope did erre , commanding vice , forbidding vertue , the church should bee bound to believe vice to be good , and vertue to bee evill , except shee would sin against conscience . 20 they offer incense to the saints in generall , and pray unto them , and sweare by them . 21 the roman church maintaineth that the merits , intercession , and blood of the saints and martyrs , are mixed as satisfactory with the blood , merits , and intercession of christ : o horrid blasphemy ! 22 they baptize bels and ships . 23 they blesse holy water , ( as they call it , and sprinkle it upon men and beasts upon st. anthonies day , ( as they call it ) and on all the horses and beasts in the countrey , ( as some that are converted from their religion affirm ) whereby the monks get abundance of mony to maintain them in their base knavery and idlenesse a long time afterward . 24 they allow incestuous marriages , contrary to the fourth commandement . 25 they deny concupiscence to be formally sin after baptisme , as if in any article of time it might bee said of man , that he is without sin . 26 ( notwithstanding all these blaspemies and abominations ) hee yet affirmeth himself to bee the vicar of christ , yea , the head or supreme over the catholick church of christ . and now i will note the popes pride : 1 frederick barbarossa was forced to lay down his neck upon the stairs of the church of st. mark ( as it is called ) in venice , to bee trod upon by that proud man of sin ; and his son ( after the pope had crowned him ) was uncrowned again , by the popes kicking off his crown with his foot , &c. 2 kings and emperors must act the parts of foot-grooms , to lead his horse by the bridle , and supporting him by holding his stirrup , and mounting him upon his horse . 3 they must be as pioners or porters to beare him upon their shoulders . 4 they must be as pages , to hold water to his hands . 5 he commands the angels to transport soules out of purgatory , ( i hope you will say he is climed very high now . ) 6 he ( even the pope ) wears a triple crown , signifying that he is the three-one-god ; and so much the apostle saith of him in 2 thess. 2. in some of the former verses , that he should sit in the temple of god , shewing himself that he is god . and now ( according as i have collected out of history ) i wil note the horoscope of his nativity ; and thus i begin it : this popery was conceived in the apostles time , as in 2 thess. 2. is shewed . 2 it was quickned in the time of victor . 3 it did stir more powerfully under stephanus and cornelius , bishops of rome . 4 more under damasus and others following . 5 it moved more strongly in the time neare its birth , under leo the first . 6 it was born and brought to the view of the world by boniface the third , upon whom the title of universall bishop was conferred by phocas the emperor . 7 it came to its height and ripenesse in the time of hildebrand , in whom antichrist was visible , france and germany espyed it then , and greece , syria , africa , and aethiopia hath disclaimed his power , as antichristian ; i will adde one people more in particular , that have and doe now see him to bee antichrist , and child of the devill , and those are we in england ; now those that have seen him in these colours , may well ( if they have any saving grace in them ) know and beleeve , that both the independents , ( so many as are sincere hearted ) and wee the presbyterialists , have great cause to be jealous of his wiles ▪ and fear lest he get footing again with us in england , i hope in this we shall all be joyned in uniformity . but now in order i come to note another great hinderance of many of the sectaries joyning in a uniformity in this presbyteriall government , and that is this , viz. they have a feare lest we should have some want of laws to punish those that shall hap to be idolaters amongst us : for if so , then the sheep that as yet have not the scab will soon bee itchy , and be spoyled too , for ( say they ) the true proverbe is , that one scabbed sheep will spoile the whole flock : it 's true so , i am not against you in this neither , because you have the word of god for your direction to this conclusion , both commands , and the reasons for it too , and examples of the inconveniences that have followed the neglecting of the putting in execution those good laws that god hath commanded us to use against idolaters , to prevent this so great a mischief , yet now i hope we shall have care taken by the parliament for this matter too , and we have some experience of it already . let us now see what it is that god hath commanded in this case , and then we willl endevour to make a true conclusion from the word of god , ( for he is no honest man that will refuse to be ruled and guided by that ) i will produce some scripture for this point also , and the first place is in deut. 13. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10. where we may see , that those that were occasioners of idolatry in israel were to bee put to death , yea , though it were a mans own child , yet he must die for it , and his parent must not conceal him , but bring him out that he may die for it : and the parents hands must be first upon him to put him to death ; and a speciall reason is rendred for it too in ver. 11. viz. all israel shall hear and fear , and doe no more such wickednesse ; pray see these texts , for i conclude it is a most hellish sin in any man to make a separation between god and his people , thereby robbing god of his glory , and his people of their salvation ; and in 2 kings 23. you may read that josiah did put to death the idolatrous priests , and eliah did the like to the priests of baal , as it is to be seen in 1 king. 18. 40. and in exod. 22 20. you may see gods command is so there , these are the words , he that sacrificeth ●o any god , save to the lord only , shall be slain & l●v . 26. 30. yea , the bones of idolaters that were dead and lay in the m●numents were burnt , 2 kin. 23. 16. and the bodies of the idolatrous kings , must not lye near the place of gods worship and service , as you may see in ezek. 43. 7. let us leave this a while to the parliament to consider of : thus you see that i am willing to yeeld to you in any thing that is certainly to be concluded on . and thus much for this point . if nought but truth you will maintaine , i strive to have the same , if you the golden truth would claime , then i am for that name . now appeareth another point unto me ready for its taggs , sent to me as from a messenger of heaven , bemoaning and lamenting in the behalf of the lords prayer , sanctified with his own lips . and truly this almost affrighted me . and i wondered what beast ( amongst those in the apocalyps mentioned ) this was , that sent forth such a smoaking sulphurous favour . at length , i thought i had espyed two kinds of creatures ; and the one me thought was a subtle jesuite in an honest mans habit , who seeing an honest man willing and forward to run away from rome , and that they had but a weak judgment , ( and therefore might run too farre ) hee therefore fluttering with the invented wings of either dedalus , or the wings of his son i●arus ) beat the wind so close to their backs as they ran , that they were too far gone of a sodain , and were almost in the red sea before they were aware of it , and were like to have been drowned in their own bloud . and then i was well perswaded in my minde concerning this beast , and knew hee was one of romes croaking frogs : but as for the other , me thought he had some goodnesse in him indeed , but yet hee had some malignity and peevishnesse in him against those that had abused the formes of prayer before , ( for there is some malignity in some of those that are in the most right way ) and so he helped forward this distemper . i seeing thus where the distemper lay , did resolve to walke in the middle way of truth , that so i might guide the simple , and settle him in the truth , and send the croaking frog to his home at rome ; and thus i began to argue ; first , that a form of prayer of it selfe , being the word of god , must needs be good . secondly , that a man may pray to god in the words of that form ; for though some doe but babble in a form , yet you may not conclude that all are babblers that use a form , for then you will condemn our saviour , for hee used a form two or three times together a little before his death ; and the psalms of david were penned for praises to god for some mercies before received , and were to be sung afterwards to gods glory ; this you cannot deny i am sure . and if you say , men do now but speak the words of it ; and therefore if they were debarred of them , then they would pray in the spirit , ( if they have any saving grace in them . ) to this i answer in the first place , with the words of st. paul , to the pure , all things are pure , but to the contrary party nothing is pure , for their mindes and consciences are defiled ; the meaning is this , that those that have honest hearts , will honestly make use of honest things . again , if you would utterly deprive all sorts of a form of prayer , how then shall ignorant youths , and little young maids pray ? nay , many times old men are but new converts , and what will you have them do ? if they use many words in a prayer , they will too soon ask they know not what , like the mother of zebedees children ; yea , they ( being ignorant ) will presently in their pride of spirit think themselves fit to fit at the elbows of christ in heaven , ( for they will think they are fitter for the place then moses or aaron ; ) surely it were safer for such to use that form which god taught the people in the time of moses , deut. 28. it was to them a form , viz. amen . but if you can pray knowingly , then poure out your hearts to god according to true knowledge : but i have heard some pray , or say many words , and but little matter , but chiefly it was tautologie , and often repeating the same words , and could not proceed farther , and thought themselves highly gifted too ; therefore take heed of spirituall pride , judge of your abilities with a single eye . i know some that have applauded a minister for making such an admirable prayer , as none near him was to be compared unto him , but it was the sillyest tautologie , that i was ashamed to heare it . doe you think in your conscience , that if you were taught in a form to ask for a hundred pounds of some that are both able and willing to give it ; and also you wanted bread to put in your belly , ( being hungry and empty ) that then you could not ask in that forme ? yes , i warrant you ; therefore beware of spirituall pride . but now having thus a little prepared you ( as i hope ) for some sure instruction , i now come more home to you , luke 11. 1. you may see that our saviour taught his disciples a form of prayer , ( they not knowing how to pray , as it seems ( unlesse some short prayer , as at some other times they did , as in these words , lord increase our faith , &c. ) in these words , when ye pray say , our father which art in heaven , &c. here you may see that they were to use the words that he taught them . and although luke hath it in this manner , pray you , that 's nothing to overthrow this evangelist , for both wayes are lawfull ; nay , god sometime did bid the jews that they should take unto them words , and come to him in prayer , and taught them a form of words too by the prophet h●sea , 14. 2 , 3. these are the words , take unto you words , and turn to the lord ; say unto him , take away all iniquitie , and receive us graciously , so will wee render the calves of our lips ; ashur shall not save us , we will not rid : upon horses ; neither will we say any more to the work of our hands , ye are our gods , for in thee the fatherlesse findeth mercy . all this form of prayer the lord taught the people by the prophet hosea : and col. 3. 16. let the word of christ dwell in you richly in all wisdome , teaching and admonishing one another in psalms , hymnes , and spirituall songs , singing with grace in your hearts to the lord , &c. he did not here mean ( in this place ) any new psalmes or hymnes , for he bad them admonish each other in those psalmes and hymnes ; therefore those psalmes and hymnes were then canonicall : although i could wish that upon some occasion , ( were it not for startling the weak in knowledge ) that some preacher that were a solid man , would frame a psalm for that speciall occasion , ( for he that can make a prayer according to the word , is able also to make a psalm ) but this i think would be inconvenient ; but this is fit to bee done , viz. the preacher himself should fit a psalme out of the book of psalmes for the severall occasions , and suitable to his sermon . and thus much for this point also , with this conclusion : now since we had no prayer-booke , the sabbath afternoons ; the sleep so much , some heads have tooke , that dead they are in swoons . some scriptures we in stead thereof , might safely entertaine ; lest wee so much from it be off , that there wee sit in vaine . and now me thinketh i see another stand by , with a question in his mouth ; ( for these times are fraught with them now ) and this is it , viz. how if pipes and organs should chance to be put upon us againe , as they were before the parliament begun , will not that bee idolatry thinke you ? and if so , then i hope you will graunt us a warrant to run out of the church ? to this i answer , first , what is lawfull in it selfe is one thing , and what is an inconvenience , is another thing ; therefore ye ought to be informed well in your judgement before you bee too forward to make a conclusion . first , if in it selfe it be idolatry now , what was it all that time , when god himself in davids time allowed it , in the praises of his people ? if you say that the pope useth it to his idols , and therefore it is idolatry . i answer , so did the heathen very likely ; and besides , if that be it by the which you would gather a conclusion , viz. that because the papists use it , therefore we may not use it , then may not we sing unto the true god because the papists sing unto their idols , ( for singing is melody ) therefore this your argument is of no validity . but here is another question put to mee , and this is the maine one , viz. in the time of the old law it was lawfull , but is not now , it being not now commanded , therefore it is unlawfull . to this i answer , briefly : if you consider the end wherefore it was at the first allowed , you may easily make conclusion . the end why it was first allowed was this , to occasion joyfulnesse or chearfulnesse in the users and hearers of it , that so they might praise god with the more lively affections , ( for all know it is an outward occasion of naturall joy ; ) and the word of god being then used with it , viz. in psalmes or hymnes , doe turn the use of it ( by the operation of gods spirit ) to the more hearty praising of god . secondly , to your question more fully , that is , because it is not commanded by the apostles , therefore it is not now lawfull for us to use it in the praises of god . why , the apostles would have us to use all meanes possible to inable us to praise god the more chearfully : but ( saith some ) some doe regard the melody more then the matter they sing , or god to whom they sing . to this i answer , so without all question doe some that sing without musicke , and have no devotion to god . therefore the apostles conclusion must bee ours , viz. to the pure , all good things are pure , but to them that are otherwise is no good thing pure . thirdly , but the parliament hath forbid it now , and therefore it is unlawfull . i doe answer , that many things at this time are forborn for divers reasons . first , it is ( and especially hath lately been ) a time of mourning , yea , to mourne with sorrowfull hearts , rather then joyous hearts , although wee bee godly disposed at that time , ( for you know in the time of david musick was not used , when they fasted to god , and were humbled for some punishment that then was upon them . ) secondly , it might be forbid by the parliament to satisfie the people who are weake in their judgement and thought every thing was popery or idolatry , because some did begin to leave that way , and then it ought to be taken away for the present . thirdly , because the people were addicted to idolatry , ( many of them ) therefore it ought to bee taken away . for the brasen serpent that was set up ( at first ) for good use , was taken downe , yea , and broken in pieces , in way of detestation and called a piece of brasse , when the people had idolatrized to it ; but this shall be my conclusion , it is no great matter whether it be or bee not , and so i end this point , with a generall reason why i have treated thus much in it , which is this , i would gladly learn the reader hereof , to make some distinctions ; for , for want of this , many mischiefs are amongst us ; and the leaders of the sectaries , either cannot or will not doe it : what the reasons are i leave to you , to be guided by some of those i mentioned in my former points , viz. policy . but now i will set to your view some scriptures to you to pitch your judgement on more clearely , both out of the old and new testament : first in exod. 15. 20. miriam the prophetesse did praise the lord with instruments of musick . judg. 11. 34 , 35. there you may see jephthah's daughter did it too . chap. 21. 19 , 20 , 21. there was a feast at shiloh yearly , a feast of the lord , ( saith the text ) and the daughters of shiloh did use to dance there at that feast . psal. 149. 3. l●t them praise the lord in the dance , let them sing praises to him with the tymbrell and harpe : and psal. 150. & psal. 33. 2 , 3 , 4. psal. 108. 1 , 2. and i will end with that in the revelation of john , chap. 14. v. 2 , 3. and i pray consider of it ; these are the words , i heard the voice of harpers , harping with their harps , and they sung , as it were , a new song before the throne , &c. and chap. 15. 2. 3. these are the words of those that had gotten the victory over the beast , they had harps of god , ( saith the text ) and they sang the song of moses the servant of god , and the song of the lamb , saying , great and marvailous are thy workes lord god almighty , just and true are thy wayes , thou king of saints . and thus much for this point . some have such tender sculls , they 'l dye with little haile ; as goslings tender be , alas what doe they aile ? and now i desire to know wherein the difference lyeth betwixt those that stand for the presbyteriall government , and those that separate from them , by reason of those things contained in those points thus lately treated of ; and consequently why we may not joyn together in the presbyteriall government . and now i come to the first of the last three things i promised to touch , and that is to answer some of the sectaries to some things which they affirm of themselves , concerning their conversation , that they are the most godly people in their lives and conversations , and therefore they have the better judgements . to this i answer , wee may not take your bare word for it neither ; for if men plead for a confusion , it is rather a sign of the contrary . secondly , it is is an ill signe in you , to be so uncharitable in your censures of us the presbyterials , you account most of us to be uncapable of the sacraments , although you cannot prove us to live in such sins , ( and especially in that degree in those sins ) which the word of god doth exclude a man for ; and is this a good sign think you ? thirdly if you say that you are more zealous in your following the preachers , and the exercises of religion ; & therefore you are better , and more godly then the presbyterials . i answer , so might the pharisees have said , for which cause they had their name zelotes ( many of them ; ) yea , this was the cause that they did separate from the residue of the people , and would be called pharisees , the which word commeth of the hebrew word phares , which signifieth to make a breach by separating from others ; and is this a commendation alwayes think you ? you know the pharisees were worse then the common people were from whom they separated , for inwardly they were full of rottennesse ; yea , our saviour said of them , that they were ravening wolves , although they were so zealous to pay tithe of mint , anise , and cummin . by all this you see now , that your argument therein is stark naught ; besides , i have found that the presbyterialls are more forward to neighbourly goodwill , and to accommodate a man with what they can , then you are : this i have proved to be true ( although i have not any thing of any man , but what i pay for . ) but the independents are full of shifts and excuses , ( so many as i have been acquainted with ) i wish they would not equivocate so much as they doe ; i hope they will ●eale truly in their shops . fourthly , they say they have more knowledge in the word and will of god then the presbyterialls have . i answer , ( if this were true ) you are so much the worse , if your hearts are not thereby made better ; for you come much short of the pharisees in our saviours time , in the literall knowledge of divine things , yet they were the worst of people . besides , it is not true neither which you affirm of your selves , viz. that you are the most knowing , for you are exceeding weak in your judgements , ( for the more part ) and many of the presbyterialls , which have not the tenth part of literall knowledge , have notwithstanding a better understanding in many things in the word of god , and sincere hearted too . fifthly , i wish i might not say that there is with you too many mountaines of spirituall pride ; for there was another sect among the jews , that called themselves sadduces , and would be thought to be more just in their dealings then other men , and yet were not such as had saving grace in their hearts , they called themselves sadduces from the hebrew word tsedek , ( as some expositors affirm ) and yet they denyed the resurrection from the dead , therefore this is no true infallible signe neither . sixthly , are you not as forward to corporall pride , as the presbyterialls too ? ( although i think you are not so sick of the fashions , as some of the presbyterialls are . ) seventhly , are you not more obstinate in your way of separation after conviction , then the presbyterialls are ? i wish i could not justly complaine of this ; for i have knowne many , when they have yeelded in many chief things in their way of separation , and yet would go on still in their way of divisions ; so that with you is wilfull obstinacy also . i doe not speak this to excuse the presbyterialls from many sins , no , i blame our selves exceedingly too : but this is the maine thing which i aime at , to beat downe men from esteeming of themselves above that which they are . and thus much for this point also . some have such shallow-heads and gnats about their eares ; i think their hearts be dead ; where is their hopes , their feares ? now farther ( you say ) that many of our side are ignorant in the word of god , and live loosly in their conversations ; it is true , they doe so ; and you say they be proud and scornfull in their carriage to their inferiours , and think to have others to stoop to them because of their gay-cloaths and big looks , they having ( many of them ) much of this worlds good ; but yet they have little or no vertue in them ; the which is that which is worthy of the true respect , and not a bare title . in this i will not dissent from you , but will conclude , that a wise man will not much respect any thing that is but an adjunct of a man , and is no part of the man , for dives was gay , and had this worlds goods , but yet he was not any whit the better esteemed of god , but hell must be the place of such a one : but yet these with us may have some saving grace in them ; for you must endevour to distinguish degrees of good and evill , otherwise you will never bee able to make a true conclusion . and truly this is a great reason for me to conclude that your leaders are either ignorant of these things , or else they keep you blinde on purpose , that so you may remaine separatists still . you may know that those that have this worlds goods are lyable to many temptations , which other inferiour people are more free from ; and though they themselves fail as much another way perhaps too . have you never seen a man that being holden in from occasions of temptations , by being in a mean estate , and thereby afflicted ; who , afterwards , having been raised to a greater estate , was more vaine then those whom hee before counted wicked ; see how good david failed in godlinesse , when great temptations encountred him , as being at rest in his kingdom of wealth , walking and solacing himself upon his house top , and having such an object of carnall delight ; and that sin did occasion another as great , o that was a great one indeed ! for having faln into the sinne of adultery , and thereby being lyable to disgrace , he thought to cover it , by using policy , and yet that policy must neverthelesse goe somewhat neare him too ; but yet he thought , having such an occasion to hazard vriah in battail , it would be the more tolerable , and therefore hee adventured upon the cutting off of vriah , that so he might take her to be his wife , to cover the sin from being known : to be short , they are more lyable to carnality and vanity then many other men are , although they have saving grace in them . but what is all this for the point we stand for , viz. the government of the church ? i still stand for truth , although abuses be ; for i know , no outward accommodations will bestead us at the great and dreadfull day of judgment . no strouts , nor clouts , nor words that swell , that will bestead us then ; for i know well , and doe you tell 't is vertue maketh men . and now in the next place i must note another thing which is prevalent in keeping men from renouncing an opinion once maintained by them , though now convinced ; and that is the undergoing of some disgrace , lest others doe deride them ; and truly my heart almost bleedeth to think of it , for it is a great tryall indeed , and especially if men have not a great measure of grace ; but yet i hope we do consider that god is to have his glory , what ever we undergoe ; let god be true , and every man a lyer . and i hope , ●f the presbyterialls be well admonished , they will forbeare scoffing at those that shall come and joyn with us . for , ( as one once said , so say i ) are there not sins with us also ? yes surely , in many things we sin all : o that we could joyn together , then might wee easily prevail of the parliament , wholsome laws , yea , and officers too , to keep us in a more stricter way in godlinesse . now let us take some notice of such things as may whet our affections more specially to perform our duties severally : first , god is worthy of all honour , and to have all glory ascribed to him , yea , all good is ( and ought ) to be ascribed to him , for he is the totality of all things ; in him we live , move , and have our being ; and in him all things consist , whose goodnesse doth appeare in his creating of us after his own image , in holinesse and righteousnesse , and knowledge , and other qualities ; in a fit degree for creatures to have resemblance of their creator , and to be blessed for evermore ; whose purity may be seen in his law which he hath set to our view , to behold his excellency in ; the which moses the man of god admired with these words to the children of israel , what nation is there under heaven that have lawes so righteous as ye have ? and david saith thus of them to god , thy law is very pure , therefore thy servant loveth it . and consider also how wee ( in the loines of our first parents ) are falne from that happy estate of that blessed creation ; and also what is due to us now by falling from god by our disobedience , even everlasting damnation and torture , and torment in hell for evermore . consider also the goodnesse of god in providing for us a remedy , that we may not be subjects of torments in hell , but be vessels of glory in heaven , onely upon good and honest conditions , faith in the merits of his son our saviour , and requi●eth nothing of us but to walk honestly , righteously , and godly in this world , according to those graces of his holy spirit knocking at the doores of our hearts , and bidding us open , yea , that giveth us power and ability to open , onely that we be not wanting in the not using those abilities which he doth give us ; but if we slight and neglect this second great mercy of his , then must we be subjects of the greater torments in hel for evermore with dreadful devils , and cursed fiends , and damned angels , and with men in a woful condition , being tortured and tormented , easless , and endless , gnashing their teeth in anguish and pain . consider this , and beware , and take heed in time , before time be no more . now let us consider what allurements the lord our god hath set forth in his scriptures of truth for our encouragement , the prophet daniel in his 12 chapter , saith , those that be wise shall shine as the sun ; and those that turn many unto righteousnesse , shall shine as the stars for ever , and ever . and in the book called the ap●calyps or revelation , are many allurements for us to be whetted on in godlinesse ; to him that overcommeth will i give ( said god ) to eate of the manna that is hid ; and to walk in white ; and to drink of the water of the pure river of god that is in that celestiall paradise ; yea , to weare a crown ; and to eat of the tree of life in the midst of the paradise of god ; and to have power over the nations , ( which betokeneth the glory of an emperor ; ) and to have a morning star ; yea , he shall be a pillar glittering in the temple of god ; yea , christ will write upon him the name of god ; and the name of the city of his god , new jerusalem , &c. yea , christ will write upon him his own name also . rev. 3. 12. and be will s●p with him , yea , ●e shall sit in the throne of christ with him , ver. 21. thus we see the goodness of god in giving us such allurements to become his sons and heires of the celestial kingdom . and these are held forth to us , to the end we might not be weary in wel-doing , though we meet with many discouragements ; for god hath ordained , that wee must through many afflictions enter into the kingdom of heaven ; these things made moses , joseph , and the rest of the patriarchs ( or the most of them ) to undergo many tryals ; and the prophets to bee content to be sawne asunder , beheaded as iohn baptist was , and to be slain as iames the apostle , and divers of the rest of them , and to bee cast into dungeons , as ieremiah ▪ &c. to be bound and imprisoned , and slaine or beheaded , as paul was ; yea , to be so tortured as those you may see in heb. 11. and cruly i wish some in these our dayes would beware lest they use some little better then those that stripped honest joseph of his goodly coat , because it seemed in their eyes to be too good for him ; i am sure at length they confessed that their trouble and afflictions were repayed into their own bosomes , because they were guilty concerning their brother ; and therefore behold , ( said reuben ) his blood is required . i will conclude with that holy and heroicall-spirited habakkuk in 3 chap. & 17 , 18 , 19 verses ; these are his words , although the fig should not blossome , neither fruit be in the vines ; though the labour of the olive should faile , the field should y●eld no meat ; though the flock should be cut off from the fold , and there bee no herd in the stalls , yet i will rejoyce in the lord , i will joy in the god of my salvation ; the lord god is my strength , and ●e will make my feet like hindes feet , and he will make me to walk upon mine high-places ; to the chief singer on my stringed instrument , &c. here followeth a few other points , that some fearfully doe miscarry in , and the first i stand amazed at , viz. that any should either beleeve or say , that our saviour took not flesh of the virgin mary ; i will onely quote scriptures to satisfie some , lest weak honest soules do chance to stumble and fall by such hereticks ; the first is rom. 9. 5. whose are the fathers , and of whom as concerning the flesh christ came ; here you see that christ came of the fathers , yea , that of them he received his flesh . rom. 1. 3. jesus christ was made of the seed of david according to the flesh ; here the apostle saith , that he was made of the seed of david , &c. act. 22. 30. of the fruit of davids loines according to the flesh , god would raise up christ to sit on his throne . acts 13 23. christ was of the seed of david according to the flesh . and so much for this point . another sort there is , ( i know not what to call them ) that hold that the soule of man is begot or derived from its parents , or one of them ; but this is such a fancy , that i detest to think of it : first , a word or two by reason , against it , why should not every childe have two souls and so be a monster , if that your conclusion were a truth , by receiving it from its parents ? for although the matter of the body is to be derived by reason of its nourishment which it receiveth from the 4 elements , yet the soul is not to bee derived so from the parents , for that is a spirituall inspiration , and is not nourished by any of the four elements , but hath its existence and subsistence from god onely . and now i come to scriptures , the first is mal. 2. 15. when god made one , yet ●e had the residue of the spirit , &c. therefore man had no more spirit , neither hath any man , any more spirit or soul but what he hath received from god immediatly , for saith the text , god had the residue of the spirit . eccles. 12. 7. the spirit shall return to god who gave it ; and hence it is ( very likely and chiefly ) that god is said to be the god of the spirits of all flesh , rather then of the flesh it self ; for although god be the god of the flesh too , yet that being made of the four elements , is not so specially regarded of god , as the spirit or soul is ; and hence it is very likely that moses calleth god , the god of the spirits of all flesh , as in numb. 16. 22. let the lord the god of the spirits of all flesh , set a man over the congregation : so much shall serve for that point . gods dearest children sometimes falling into some capitall sinne or sins , may thereby occasion the lord to scourge them temporally for it , especially if it be openly committed or publickly known , though they repent of it , and more especially if it be not more speedily repented of , as we may see in david for his numbring his people in his pride , and 2 sam. 12. 10. there you may see , that a man may have a scourge for som sin as long as he liveth ; for because of davids sin with bathshebah , and his slaying of vriah in a kind of politick way to save his credit , and cover his sin , the sword did never depart from his house : let us beware of sin in that regard also . now a word for the comfort of all that are in christ by faith , to prevent some mens discouraging of good christians , telling them that they cannot be sure of everlasting life , so long as they are here on earth . here followeth some scriptures to prove that a man may be assured of his salvation here in this world ; the first is in joh. 6. 47. verily , verily i say unto you , he that beleeveth on me hath everlasting life ; here the evangelist doth not barely say , that a beleever hath life , but that he hath everlasting life ; & in ver. 54 also , & joh. 5. 24. he that beleeveth on him that sent me , hath everlasting life , and shall not come into condemnation ; but is passed from death to life ; & 2 pet. 1. 10 , 11. make your calling and election sure ; for if you doe these things you shall never fall , for so an entrance shall be ministred unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our lord and saviour iesus christ ; now if you would know what things those bee that you must have , that so you never fall , but be assured to be entred into heaven , as it were , before-hand , then look in ver. 5 , 6 , 7. going before , and there you may see them ; the which if you get , you are sure never to fal i doe not affirm that all beleevers have that faith of assurance , spoken of in this last text , but that it is and may be obtained . the reason why men doe not see the salvation of god in christ is ( among many ) especially because they doe not yeeld obedience in their hearts to so much of the morall law , as they know , either in the letter of it , informing their hearts or consciences ; or without the letter , viz. written in their conscience . if any man will doe his wil , he shall know of the doctrine whether it be of god , or whether i speak of my self , jo●. 7. 17. psal. 50. 23. to him that ordereth his conversation aright , will i sh●w the salvation of god ▪ ezek. 43. 10 , 11. if they be ashamed of all that they have done , shew them the form of the house , &c. i know there must bee some generall hopes in a man that hath the knowledge of his sins which hee seeth in him ; although that knowledg be not with saving faith in the merits of christ , but some generall notions that will not bestead him that resteth in them . 2 cor 3. 16. when the heart shall be turned to the lord , the vail shall be taken away . until a man repenteth himself of those sins which god hath convinced him of in his conscience , he shall remain blinde in the matter of salvation by christ , for there must goe a legall repentance before an evangelicall repentance ; therefore christ saith , mat. 21. 23 ▪ you when you heard , repented not that you might beleeve him ; god giveth many gifts , but man neglecteth him . here are places to shew , that there is a difference between a man that is in the true justifying faith concerning inherent holinesse , and a man that is out of christ , contrary to some mens conclusion , that all men are alike in their inward hearts or quali●ications ; the first place is psal ▪ 18. 19 , 20 , 21. to the 26. & psal. 26. psal. 28. psal. 131. 1 , 2. & in 2 sam. 22. very largely . see all these places , and there you may have assurance that a man may speak in his owne defence concerning his owne integrity of heart , if in case others would blast his due reputation ; provided that it bee so in deed and in truth . i speak this to stop the mouths of some wicked people , that are ready to say that there is no difference among men , viz. that all are alike now in the state of grace , excepting onely the imputative righteousnesse of christ ; yea , i have heard with my own eares to my great grief , some man say , that those that are justified have no inherent holinesse nor righteousnesse . but if this be a truth , why then did our saviour pronounce a blessednesse to those that are pure in heart ? and why did all the apostles preach sanctification to be inherently in the justified ones ? yea , if any man be in christ he is a new creature , yea , paul himselfe ( in the behalf of himself , and the residue of the apostles and brethren ) said thus , god hath revealed the hid mysteries to us his holy apostles and prophets , &c. and all the apostles calleth upon men to be ( not onely beleevers in christ , but ) sanctified throughout both in body and soule , &c. but yet notwithstanding it is imperfect in regard of degrees ; and therefore it is that the prophet concluded that all our righteousnesse were as filthy rags ; and the apostle james affirmed , that in many things we offend , &c. this point is to shew how many subjects have neglected , refused and opposed their kings commands , when those commands were unjust by gods expresse word ; yea , they did hinder their king from acting sin himself , and that by force too . my first scripture is 2 chron. 26. 16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , 20. azariah , and fourscore valiant men withstood vzziah their king , to hinder him from sinning against god , in doing that which belonged to his subjects to be done , he being forbid by gods speciall command ; and if they had not hindred him , then they should have smarted for it as well as their king. 1 sam. 14. 45. sheweth , that the people of israel did hinder their king saul from committing a sin against one of his subjects , which he had sworn to doe , but they did resist him , and swore that jonathan should not die , ( seeing he did not deserve death : ) jonathan knew not of his fathers oath concerning that thing ; if the oath it self had been lawfull , as you may read in ver. 27. and such a one was to be pardoned by gods command , as in ezek. 45. 19. numb. 15. 27 , 28. & levit. 4 , 27. and this is noted also as a good deed of the people , in opposing their kings in these things . and in 1 sam. 20. 30 , 31 , 32 , 33. and so forth , jonathan would rescue good david from sauls ma●●cious and murderous intent , though he had sauls displeasure so farre , as to the hazarding of his own life , for this his so doing . this did good jonathan contrary to the command of his father , though the king ; and this also is recorded for his commendation . but contrariwise when the people did not hinder their kings , but joyned with them in that which was evill ; then they and their kings must smart for it too ; as you may see by the peoples joyning with their king ahaziah , against elijah the prophet , as in 2 king. 1. and so alwayes throughout the scriptures , you may observe the like punishment upon the people for seconding their governors in evill . yea , this was the very cause of the casting off of the jewes chiefly ; for they joyned with their high-priest , chiefe priests and pharisees , and the rulers of the jewes in crucifying of christ ; and therefore his blood is upon them , as well as upon their governours unto this day : do you not think it had been happy for the people of the jewes , if they had opposed their elders and governors , and kept them from slaying our saviour christ ? yes truly , it had been well for that people . and the subjects of ahab were accessory to ahabs sparing of benhad●d , and see what they were to receive of god for that sin , as in 1 king. 20. 42. they must die for it . here followeth certain scriptures shewing what was to be done to the places where the idolaters worshipped their false gods , viz. the places that were built for that purpose , and so used publickly ; and the reason rendred by god himself , viz. to take away , or destroy the name of idolatry , ( and idolaters ) out of that place , &c. neverthelesse their cities , vineyards , and dwelling houses were to stand still for their habitations , ( except those places where they publickly or usually wove hangings for their groves , &c. 2 kin. 23. 7. ) as you may see in deut. 6. 10. and chap. 19. 1. idolatry ( it seemes ) is too easily entertained into the hearts of men by small occasions ; and we have had wofull experience of it with us , in not watching to prevent it , before it was entertained into many hearts , so prevalent is this sin with the sons of men . how soon were the asian churches be-pestered with corruption in this sin , as others also , but that god out of his infinite mercy forewarned them before they were utterly faln away ; and so have we now been warned from god by many instruments which hee hath stirred up in his cause , to set us in a right way again , contrary to the expectation of the roman frogs , which have troubled us with baalzebubs sulphur . when some did wink , and closely think to leave us in their lurches ; god did provide with pen and ink , his johns to save his churches . finis . the voice of infants by infants defender . luke 9. 50. forbid him not ; for he that is not against us , is for us , is there not a cause , 1 sam. 17. 29. behold the babe wept , exod. 2. 6. and i brethren , when i came to you , came not with excellency of speech , or of wisdome , declaring to you the testimony of god , 1 cor. 2. 1. but truly i am full of power by the spirit of the lord , and of judgement , and of might to declare unto jacob his transgressions , and to israel his sins , micah 3. 8. i thank thee o father , lord of heaven and earth , because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent , and hast revealed them to babes : even so father , for so it seemed good in thy sight , matth. 11. 25. now i beseech you brethren , mark them which cause divisions and offences , contrary to the doctrine which yee have learned , and avoid them ; for they that are such , serve not the lord jesus christ , but their own belly ; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple , rom. 16. 17 , 18. london , printed by r. cotes , 1647. an advertisement to the reader , for the better understanding of the subject in the ensuing discourse , as a preparative . 1. i pray you note the occasion of this discourse , it was upon a challenge to dispute the case of baptisme , at which time i found the party so weak , that i was both ashamed to observe his imbecillity , and grieved to observe people so misled ; therefore out of pity i have thought good to shew the chief heads of the discourse , though it bee not so exquisite as perhaps you all could wish it ; but i did not intend any more should see it then himself , and some few of his followers ; but perceiving the importunity of some of my acquaintance , i supposed they would cause it to bee somewhat more publike : but had my thoughts stretched so farre at first , i would have inlarged the matter , and drawn the discourse into more particulars , and more orderly , whereas now you have but the substantialls summarily , and somewhat confusedly . 2. observe , i have shewed the institution of circumcision , and that it was an outward sign or token of inward circumcision in the party to whom it was first given , he being a man , namely , abraham . 3. that his seed were to receive the same signe in their infancy , whether they had inherent holinesse , yea , or nay , as having a right to the ordinance , they being children of the faithfull , or at least children of the professors of the faith of abraham . 4. that this sign of circumcision was belonging to those that were not of abrahams naturall seed also , if they would joyn to abraham and his seed in the profession of the same faith ; and that then the children of those strangers were to receive the same signe of circumcision also , and to the same end that abraham and his seed were , untill the comming of christ , at which time the sign of faith was changed from circumcision to baptism to the beleeving jewes , or those of abrahams naturall seed , as well as to the gentiles which then did beleeve . 5. that the signe being changed from circumcision to baptisme , them , for with their mouth they shew much love , but their heart goeth after their covetousnesse . and loe , thou art unto them as a very lovely song , of one that hath a pleasant voyce , &c. ezek. 33. 31 , 32. and ●ee that departeth from evill maketh himselfe a pray , and the lord saw it , and it displeased him , &c. esay 57. 16. i will make thy tongue cleave to the roofe of thy mouth , that thou shalt be dumb , and shalt not bee to them a reprover , for they are a rebellious house , ezek. 3. 26. by men of other tongues and stammering lips will i speake to this people , &c. isay 28. 11. if a man walking in the spirit of falsehood doe lie , saying , i will prophesie of wine and strong drinke , even hee shall bee the prophet of this people , micah . 2. 11. oh ephraim what shall i doe unto thee ? oh judah what shall i doe unto thee ? for your goodnesse is as a morning cloude , and as the early dew it goeth away , hosea 6. 4. repent and turne your selves from all your transgressions , so iniquitie shall not bee your ruine , ezek. 18. 30. come and let us returne unto the lord , for hee hath torne , and hee will heale us ; hee hath smitten , and hee will bind us up , hosea 6. 1. turne yee , oh turne yee , for why will yee die o yee people of england ? ezek. 33. 11. let us search and try our wayes , and turne againe to the lord , let us lift up our hearts with our hands unto god in the heavens , lam. 3. 40 , 41. to the law , and to the testimony , if they speake not according to this rule , it is because there is no light in them , esay 8. 20. if any man will doe his will hee shall know the doctrine whether it bee of god , or whether i speake of my selfe , john 7. 17. when the heart shall bee turned to the lord , the vaile shall bee taken away , 2 cor. 3. 16. to him that ordereth his conversation aright , will i shew the salvation of god , psal. 50 ▪ 2● . if yee bee willing and obedient , yee shall ●ate the good of the land , but if yee bee wicked , and rebell , yee shall bee consumed with the sword , &c. esay 1. 19 , 20. finis . machine-generated and other supplemental data notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a90720e-7980 the texts a● named . question , wh●● divisions thos● were , to bee examined . the inconveniencies of divisions promised to be observed . the excellen●ie of godly u●ity . this unity is much forward●d by a uniformity . and whether we may not ar●●in it now . the hinderers of this uniformity to be ex●mined . ●t's a great tryal ●o them that ●ave once inte●essed themselves in an op●osing way , to ●eforme from 〈◊〉 , though con●inced , because ●f disgrace . motives to the ●ontrary : ●erswading ●hose that stand ●●r the presby●erians to im●●ace them &c. the text ex●mined and ●bserved . the text proper to the point intended , viz. not to forsake the assembling , &c. the chief text or illustration the doctrine ●ncluded on . the first reason to prove that such divisions are naught ; it estrangeth their affections 2 reason , it causeth an evil opinion of each other . 3 reason , it occasious civil wars . 4 we are lyable to a common enemy , &c. 5 errors will hereby be increased , &c. 6 wee shall have little restraint of evill , &c. the benefit ●●at comes by a ●●dly unitie . 〈◊〉 godly unitie 〈◊〉 affection is ●uch forwar●ed by a law●●ll uniformi●●e in divine ●rdinances . whether wee may not attain● to this uniformity in a warrantable way . the chiefe points named . the first chiefe point aimed at viz. who are the church , &c. these are without the pale of the church . what corruptions were in those that were beleevers in the apostles time . ●●om those ●remises ari●eth their sepa●ation . these were ●●ruly , and yet ●aul gave no order for sepa●ation , but to ●dmonish them ●till . the chiefe point now followeth in order , concerning the ministers of the word . &c. those that are best able , ough● to be the teachers . if a minister have honesty , & want knowledge , then he● is dangerous , hee will lead men into errors . if hee want honesty , and have knowledge , how then , what 's to be done then ? yet wee mus● not choose a novice , as in 2 tim. 3. 6. it is a punishment of god to us , when wee want fitting preachers . who ought to ●rdaine the ●reachers of ●●e gospel . the preachers ●well qualifi●d ) ought to ●rdain the mi●isters of the gospel . titus was to ordaine elders for the ministry of the gospel . the ministry of the word of god , was to be committed to those that timothy could find fit to be the teachers of the people . the reason why timothy shall ordaine &c. timothy did choose deacons also . they used to lay ha●ds on them that were ordained . some ministers were superintendents of o●hers too . some being ordained to be ministers of the gospel before they are able , do much hurt . the separatist's objection against our ministers , viz. they are of the popes order , &c. the true signe of a minister of god . where it is fittest the church of christ should dwel , or how neer to each other , viz. together . the preacher ought to live among , or very neare those he is to bee the preacher unto , &c. the peoples preachers are undone by others that draw their flocks from them . and the residue of the poore sheep must starve . the monster . the objection against a nationall church . the nation should in the more generall profession embrace the doctrine of christ . the special de●e●s that the apostles did ●eave with the churches for ●heir rule or ●uide . some cases of conscience . the government of the church is of greater weight then 〈◊〉 &c. if men may have what they list , under pretence of tender conscience , then knaves may plead for knavery . a rule to judge by in some measur● ▪ ●t is wilfulness ●ather then ●enderness of conscience . divers general precepts are so ●eft to the church for small matters . it 's fit wee should have some way to restrain those that make such confusion . whether their leaders do no● hold them in these errors o● purpose , &c. boles and basins &c. the sectaries answer , to maintaine his drawing of inhabitants to him , and leaving the rest toget●● what they can , and where . the antinomians . some hold that god is not angry ▪ the use of the ●ivill magi●●ate . compelling men to heare the word of god . ●●ages , pi●●ures , and mo●●ments an of●●nce to the ●●ctaries and ●●esbyterialls ●●c . idolatrous marriages , &c. the permitting idolaters to live with us , doth offend sectaries ; and that is no fault in them . papists are idolaters . how idolatry came into the world , as history reports . the papists call us hereticks . the popes tenets , or some of them . the popes pride . the assenden● of the popes nativity . ●●e indepen●●nts ( many of ●●em ) doe fear ●●at we shall ●●ve no lawes 〈◊〉 punish ido●●ters as god ●●●h comman●ed . the lords prayer . tit. 1. 15. of musicke . signes to shew whether party is the best in their conversations . coruptions in gods people , and especially in those that live in wealth , and at ease . davids failings . the hinderances that keep men from the ●●nouncing an opinion , ●hough convinced of it in their conscience . motives to the presbyterialls to be kinde to those that renounce the other wayes . motives to ●oth parties to perform our duties , whatsoever hap to us , ( so to speak ) viz. look to the great allurements mentioned in the word of god , and the punishment if we neglect our duty , &c. ●ereticks deny ●●at christ ●●ok flesh of ●●e virgin ●ary . ●ome hold ●●at the childe ●eriveth or re●eiveth its soul ●●om its pa●●nts . if gods people sin some capitall sin , ( especially openly ) they may smart temporally for it as long as they live here , though repented of . a man may be assured of his salvation . men ( not repenting of known sinnes ) are still left blind in matter of salvation . a man may speake in the defence of his own integrity , ●f the same be ●n him indeed , &c. accidentall ignorance pardoned . this is zan●hi●s resolution also , who was a good reformer . an husbandmans harrow to pull down the ridges of the presbyteriall government and to smooth, a little, the independent ... containing divers new and unanswerable arguments ... / written by ellis bradshavv ... bradshaw, ellis. 1649 approx. 265 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 56 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a29130) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 97084) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 409:11) an husbandmans harrow to pull down the ridges of the presbyteriall government and to smooth, a little, the independent ... containing divers new and unanswerable arguments ... / written by ellis bradshavv ... bradshaw, ellis. [17], 88 p. printed for the author ..., london : 1649. reproduction of original in huntington library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng presbyterianism. congregationalism. church polity -early works to 1800. 2006-05 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2006-05 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2006-07 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2006-07 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-09 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion an husbandmans harrow to pull down the ridges of the presbyteriall government and to smooth , a little , the independent . that they and others may walk together upon plain scripture grounds , without stumbling on the ridgedness of either , or both . containing divers new and unanswerable arguments , properly deduced from sacred scriptures to this purpose , that have never yet been proposed by any on either partee , which induceth the husbandman to make thus bold whether welcome or no. and having prooved also the said scripturall arguments , that like teeth of steel , they will pull down the ridges , before they break or bend ; having been forced to try them upon ridged lands : because he could not walk upon either of their grounds without stumbling on the ridges . written by ellis bradshavv of the parish of bolton , in the county of lancaster , husbandman . london , printed for the author , and are to be sold at the black spread eagle at the west end of pauls . 1649. to the reader . beloved brethren ; who ever you be that shall read or hear , and understand those things that are here exprest . i desire briefly in the name of god , and the lord jesus christ , to admonish and exhort , yea , to kindle , and incourage you in the ways of truth , of meekness , and of righteousnesse , as psal . 45. & hebr. 1. but to danke , and daunt , and discourage the adversaries in every respect , wherein they doe oppose , or exalt themselves against the lord jesus , or against his scepter ; yea , against his kingdom , against his truth , and meekness , and righteousnesse , as hebr. 1. 8 , 9 , &c. for the time is come , that he hath taken to himself ( even ) his great power , and hath in ( measure ) raigned , as revel . 11. 17. nay , there is heard ( already , even ) a loud voyce , saying in heaven ; ( to wit , in the church ) now is salvation , and strength , and the kingdome of our god , and the power of his christ ; for the accuser of our brethren , ( to wit , sathan ) is already cast down , which accused them before our god day and night , as revel . 12. 10 , 11 , 12. and they have ( in measure alredy ) overcom by the bloud of the lamb , and by the word of their testimony . and if you aske ( who ) that have thus overcome . they are plainly noted what stamp they are [ of ; ] for they are of such , as have not loved their lives unto the very death . this is their stamp , and let it be their motto , for there is none more proper , neither any more precious , or truly honourable amongst the sons of men . and therefore rejoyce ye heavens , ( to wit , yee churches ) and ye that dwel in them . but wo be to the inhabitants of the earth , and of the sea , for the devil himself is come down unto you , [ and that ] having great wrath , knowing that he hath but a short time , till he must be inclosed , and chained up , in the bottomless pit , for a thousand years , as chap. 20. 1 , 2 , 3. for he must be shut up , and a seale set upon him , that he shall deceive the nations no more , till the thousand years shall be fulfilled : though after that , he must be loosed , for a little season . and therefore to dank , and dant , and discourage the adversaries ; and for terror and amazement , even to the people of god ; yea , such as fear his name , whether they be small or great . lest they should be ingaged on the adversaries part ; against michael , and against his angels , as revel . 12. 7. even against him , i meane , that is the first and the last , that liveth , and was dead , but that is now alive for evermore , amen : who hath the keys of hell and of death , chap. 1. 17 , 18. yea , for terror unto such , as shall ingage against him ; i might write a book , not only within , but on the backside ; like that spoken of in ezekiel ; and all full , even of bitter lamentations , and mournings , and woes . though it is doubtful , it should but be in ( vain to the most part . ) for even the people of god , that are his elect and precious , are many of them grown , even secure and careless ; yea , dull and uncapable of any deep impressions , either of fears , or hopes : and they are too apt , either not to [ hear , ] or when they have heard , to let the wordsslip , as heb. 2. 1 , 2 , 3. and so incur to themselves so much greater judgements , unless they repent . and therefore , woe , woe , and alass for ever , to all that do but neglect ; much more , that despise so great salvation , hebr. 2. 3 , 4 , to 9. yea , woe , woe , and alass for ever , to the inhabitants of the earth that forget god. and above all , unto them , that in measure know god , and yet in no measure will glorifie him as god , neither are thankful ; but become vaine in their imaginations , &c. as rom. 1. 21. yea , who have changed the truth of god into a lye : and worshipped , and served the creature ( yea any creature ) more then the creator , who is god indeed , blessed for ever , amen . yea , woe , woe , and alass for ever , unto those , who not likeing to retaine god in their knowledge , nor in their minds and thoughts , he shall give them over to a reprobate minde , to doe those things which are not convenient , being filled with all unrighteousness , &c. as the particulars are enumerated , rom. 1. 28 , 29 , 30 , 31 , 32. yea , woe unto the world because of offences : and though it must needs be , that offences shall come , yet woe unto such , by whom they come : it were better for them that a mill stone were hanged about their necks ; and they were cast into the sea , then that they should offend but one of the least of those little ones , ' that beleeve in christ , as matth. 18. & 3. to 14. and what ever men thinke , yea , though they care not to despise or offend , and reproach , yea even murther and destroy , and seek to root out , even the very names and posterities of any such little ones , that beleeve in christ ; making no more account of the killing of such , then of so many fleas . yet , it is not the will of their heavenly father , that so much as one of these little ones should perish , as vers . 14. and therefore it is , that he doth admonish us , how to deale with such , if they trespass against us , vers . 15 , &c. for precious in the sight of the lord is the death of his saints . and he will doubtless preserve their souls , though cruel cains , shall destroy their bodies : yea , he will doubtless , preserve the faithful , and plenteously reward every proud doer . but let it admonish such who are faithful , and that obey his voyce , to take heed unto themselves ; and if their brethren sin against them , tell them of their faults ; and if they repent , forgive them , &c. yea , though seven times over in one day , as mat. 18. for we are not allowed to hate our brethren in our hearts ; but to tel them of their faults plainly . neither is it lawful to judg and censure them , as rom. 15. 4. 7 , 10 , 12 , 13 , 19 , 22. & chap. 15. 1 , 2 , 3 , 5 , 6 , 7. according to appearance , but righteous judgement ; we are not allowed to account them as enemies , but to admonish them as brethren ; yea though they so far disobey , even the apostles sayings , as that we are necessarily ingaged , to withdraw from them , as 2 thes . 3. 6. and therefore woe unto such , what ever they be , whether presbyterians , or independants , that shall resist the truth , of which they are convinced , and shal , through partial respects to their own parts , seek the destruction either of other , and remain implacable , and malign , and hate , and despise their brethren , because in every respect they cannot accord to be of their minds , nor walk with them just in their ways , when yet not withstanding if partiallity do not blind their eyes , they may both see faults in their own ways , in which they are engaged , which no engagement ought to bind them to maintain or abide in after they are discovered , but they ought freely to confess their faults each to others , as james 4. 11. 12. & chap. 5. 16. being convinced of them , and both of them ought to consent freely to the wholesom words of our lord and saviour even jesus christ , and to the doctrine which is according to godliness , & not to teach otherwise ; but if any do , the apostle telleth us plainly , ( and we are apt to beleeve it , ) that such are puft up , and know nothing , but dote about questions and strifes of words , whereof cometh envy , strife , railing , evil surmisings , perverse disputings , of men , of corrupt minds , and destitute of the truth , supposing that gain is godliness : and biddeth timothy , from such to withdraw himself , as 1 tim. 6. 3 , 4 , 5. and we are apt to do as he advised timothy , for if it was good for timothy , it is in all liklihood good for us also ; and how shall we think such men honest , that will not approve of the things that are honest , as the apostle injoyneth them in another place ? for it is not enough not to oppose , or resist , and speak against such things , but they ought to approve them , and testifie their assent and agreement thereunto , so far forth as they are apparently honest or true , &c. else they do implicitely oppose and resist them , or shew their unwillingness to embrace and obey them , and that they are stubborn and rebellious , and even at enmity with god in those respects , because he crosseth them even in their own devices and ways , &c. and doubtless many good men in these our days are deeply engaged in this very sin , and yet we are not allowed to judg and censure them as enemies and apostates , but should love , and pity , and pray for them , considering our selves as also subject to the same failings . beloved brethren , the scripture is clear concerning jonas , that he was a prophet of the lord , and was immediately called and sent of god , as a choyce and famous man , to prophesie against nineve , and yet because that he knew the goodness and mercy of god , and that upon repentance he would pardon ; he was unwilling even to preach the preaching which the lord commanded him , in all likelihood , lest his future prophecying should be the worse credited ; and how rebelliously he carryed and demeaned himself , till he was forced through extremity , by the power of god , to submit unto him , and humble himself , and out of the belly of hell even to cry unto him : and after all that , being but a little afflicted for want of the gourd , how passionately angry and teeny he was , and durst profess stubbornly , even in the presence of god , speaking it vocably unto him , that he did well to be angry , even to the very death ; like a man desperate , and as he had been at enmity even with god himself ; and yet he was , doubtless , a man inspired with the spirit of god , and very intimate and familiar with him : look for this jonas 4. and therefore strange is the temper , and natural frailties and dispositions ( by nature ) of some good men : nay , who can we read of almost in scripture , though never so holy and fully inspired , but we may read likewise of their failings and infirmities , and of some of their gross and notorious sins ; as david in the matter of uriah ; peter in his dissimulation , and building up that by his practise , which he destroyed by his doctrine : and paul had his infirmities and pricks in the flesh after his conversion and calling to the ministry . elias also was a man subject to like passions , as the apostles were , who confessed themselves subject to like passions as others , acts 14. 15. and yet they were men full of faith , and of the holy ghost ; so was barnabas , so was peter , so were all the apostles , and many others , in whom we might instance ; and it would be useful to determine from murder , or [ hating ] of their brethren , which is no better then [ man-slaughter , ] as 1 john 3. 5. which many are too apt to take liberty to do , ( because they see some faults and miscarriages in them , ) as if it were a ground fully sufficient to excuse their malice , because they have some spots , yea some flesh , as well as spirit : and they will not beleeve , that any such have the spirit of god , because they have also a spirit of flesh , a law in their members , by which they are led captive , against the law of their minds ; for they will not consider that they have but the spirit of god in measure : and that it is needful they be sometimes left to their own strength , that they might remember , and freely acknowledg , by whose strength they stand , and give the glory to god ; for who is there , but is apt to think , that their mountains are made strong , so that they shall never be moved , and to judg , and censure , and condemn their brethren , and say of themselves like the proud pharisee , [ we are not like other men ? ] if they should not sometimes have pricks in the flesh , and messengers of satan sent to buffet them , a little matter will puss us up ; and therefore it is that the apostle admonisheth , that he that thinketh he standeth , should take ( special ) heed lest he fall . for by how much the more confident any man is in his own strength , by so much the more likely he is to fall : and by how much the more severe , rigorous , censorious , or uncharitable , any man is in judging of others ; by so much the more likely and sure he is so to fall himself , as to be justly culpable of the same , or worse then those whom he judged , condemned and censured . and therefore it is , that christ himself hath admonished us , judg not , that you be not judged , mat. 7. 1 , 2 , &c. rom. 2. 1 , to the end . chap. 7. and chap. 14. and should not they that are strong bear the infirmities of the weak , but they must please themselves ? should not every one of us please his neighbor in that which is good to edification , as christ himself also did ? rom. 15. 1 , 2 , 3. and chap. 14. and 1 cor. 16. 14. is it not the advice even of the holy ghost ? is it not the will of our heavenly father , that we should study the things that make for peace , and that might provoke unto love ? not unto wrath , nor to enmity nor hatred , but that which is the end of the commandment , and the very life and strength of all community , and of the commonwealth ; yea , the happiness and felicity of all kingdoms , yea governments , whatsoever , civil or ecclesiastical , and the subjects thereof . and it is the onely , or at least the chief sign of the dwelling of god , either in or amongst us : if we love one another , god dwelleth in us , and his love is perfect in us ; for god is love , and he that dwelleth in love , dwelleth in god , and god in him , 1 joh. 4. 12 , 16 , 20 , 21. and not onely so , but it is a token of his blessing likewise , for there the lord commandeth the blessing , yea , even permanent blessing , and that the chief of all , to wit , [ life ] for evermore , that is to say , where there is unity of brethren , and that they dwell so together , psa . 133. and continue in their love . and though it be true that in some good measure the spirit of life from god is already entred into the two witnesses , and they are creeping up to stand upon their feet ; so that great fear is ( in measure ) faln upon them that saw ( and insulted over ) them , as rev. 11. 10 , 11. yet , let us never expect the approbation of god , and to be called up to heaven , nor to ascend in a cloud to such eminent respect in the [ church universal ] which is meant by [ heaven ] vers . 12. till faith and love , which are the two proper and essential [ witnesses ] that are here meant , be inspired into us by the spirit of life from god , and shall raise and advance us , who are but the subjects in whom they recide , and who are but the instruments in whom they act , as a visible express of their invisible power and nature , &c. for the glory of god , and the terror and amazement of all his adversaties : for it is by faith , if we prevail with god , or do any thing worthy of respect with him , or in the sight of men , as heb. 11. and faith worketh by love ; and he that beleeveth hath the witness in himself : see 1 john 4. 7 , 8. so that if these two witnesses be inspired into us , and we be acted by them , it will be indeed to the terror and amazement of all our enemies , that are enemies of god. and there shall be such an earthquake in the same hour as shall affright a remnant , who shall give glory to the god of heaven ; and we shall bear a part in that triumphant song , vers . 15. to 18. and therefore edifying one another in faith and love , which are in christ jesus , ought to be the end and chief endeavor of all our business in church affairs , as it is the end of the whole law , and as i hope in god it shall be mine , who am , your brother in the lord jesus , ellis bradshaw . the contents . containing by way of preambulation , the grounds and rules , according to which the following discourse is held forth , drawn from the end of the commandment , which is love out of a pure heart , and a good conscience , and of faith unfeigned . pag. 1. 2. 3. 1. first , shewing the end of the commandment to be better in value , and more to esteemed then the means to accomplish it , and therefore ought to be chiesly eyed in all the way that leadeth thereunto . 2. secondly , the illustration and application of the foresaid end of the commandment , prescribed as foure rules , to try all laws , arguments , doctrines , & motives by , ●hether they lead properly to the end of the commandment , yea or no , that so we might embrace , or avoid them as we ought to do . pag. 4. 5. 6. 7. 3. thirdly , four grounds and arguments drawn from scripture , as intending , and tending to a reconciliation of the churches of god , in respect of the government and discipline there of , pa. 7. 1. the first from the lawfulness of chastity or marriage . pag. 8. 9. 2. the second from the lawfulness of community of goods , amongst such who can so agree , or the claiming of propriety amongst such who cannot . pag. 9. 10. 3. the third from the lawfulness of fasting , and prayer ; or of eating and drinking . pag. 10. 11. 4. and the fourth from the lawfulness of such , who think they ought , of being of the strictest sect of the true religion , such as were the pharisecs , or one more remisse , such as was the scribes . pag. 12. intending chiefly hereby to clear , that no man ought to blame anoother , for being more strict and conscientious , then he himself 〈◊〉 , or it may be [ needs ] or ought to be ; his calling of god , not ingaging him to it , as it doth the other , being bound in spirit to the quite contrary , and in conscience both . pag. 12. and one the other part , that those that are stricter ought not to blame such as are more remiss in some respects ; because for ought they know , they are so ingaged , and called of god , and either bound in conscience , or bound in spirit , within their own sphere . pag 12. conseq . the consequence where of being to this purpose , that they ought not therefore to compel each other , unto conformity , either to the strictness of the one , or the remisness of the other : proving that the magistrate ought to tollerate , or suffer both , and not to ingage them one against the other . pag. 12. 4. fourthly , the application of the aforesaid grounds , and arguments to the matter in hand ; to wit , to the churches , and the government thereof . pag. 13. 14. 15. 5. fiftly , first the application of the aforesaid grounds and conclusions by way of just reproofe unto both parties , because they do not agree , and live , and love , and carry as brethren . pag. 15. for which end the rule of charity is proposed , and a little proscsecuted pag. 16. 17. 18. 2. the punctual application of the precedent conclusions are briefly asserted ; first to the one , and secondly to the other , and a general consequence concluded thence . pag. 19. 6. an objection proposed and answered at large ; to wit , that seeing presbyteries plead that independents rules and ways of discipline , are not more strict , but more remisse , and loose in many respects , giving way for liberty of all religious without controule by the civil state , as so they speak of them : pag. 19. it is answered at large , that the rules and principles , according to which they engage to act , are manifestly stricter , and lawfully too , in divers particulars , which are held forth in several assertions , wherein likewise they are engaged , in duty and conscience , so to do : though it is not denyed , but many presbyterians are engaged in conscience to do the contrary , and are fully perswaded that they ought so to do for the time present . p. 20. 1. it is asserted , that they are justly stricter with whom they do incorporate and joyn themselves in church policy , because that , so far forth as their joyning together hath respect to the policy and government of the church , no church can be too strict . pag. 20. though , in other respects , they ought to joyn according to the rule of charity , and not of certainty , as in administration of the word and sacraments , as 1 cor. 16. 14. chap. 13. & chap. 10. 32 , 33. 2. it is asserted , that ( for the same ends , and reasons , and respects , alledged in the former ) they are justly strict and conscientious , and teach it as a duty , that all that are found , and known to be men of approved fidelity , within convenient bounds , should thus incorporate and joyn themselves ; and to engage themselves in covenant unto god , for better security and deeper engagement unto all brotherly and christian duties , and to deal impartially in all such business , as concerns them all , for the glory of god , and the churches good ; and to be wise as serpents , though innocent as doves . p. 21 , 22. 3. it is asserted , and proved at large , that the principles of independents are stricter , and neerer to the scripture rules , for edifying of the church , in that they do not limit the holy one of israel to speak in publique by the learned onely . p. 22 to 47 for proving whereof , 1. it is asserted from 1 cor. 12. 7 , to 12. that naturally and manifestly flows from hence ; that to whomsoever the manifestation of the spirit is given , it is given to such to profit withall . pag. 23. 2. it is proved against an objection to the contrary , that such who have the spirit of god , and are spiritualiz'd thereby , may discern all things , yea , the deep things of god , as 1 cor. 2. 10. 15. yea , though they be unlearned in the tongues ; and that the manifestations of the spirit may be evident and demonstrable , even in these our days , to such who are spiritual , though not unto others , as vers . 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10. pag. 23. 24. 3. the particular gifts , or notes , or qualifications , or operations , or administrations , are the chief of them produced from sacred scripture , whereby the manifestation of the spirit of god , and of power , &c. may be evident and demonstrable in such as are not of those that are learned in the tongues , nor graduates in the schools , even in these our days , yea , and that in such who do no miracles . pag. 24. 4. it is asserted and proved against an objection , that these particular gifts and administrations , which are reckoned up by the apostle paul , cannot be so counterfeited by the carnal , but they may easily be discerned by those that are spiritual p. 24 , 25. and to that purpose there is divers notes from sacred scripture , which ( being found in any ) do prove for certain , and do evidently demonstrate , that it is indeed even the spirit of god that speaketh in them , yea though they do no miracles . pag. 25. 1. the first from john 7. 18. ibid. 2. from john 10. 10. 28. pag. 26. 3. from james 1. 17 , 18. ibid. 4. from john 16. 8. ibid. 5. from 1 cor. 4. 5. & chap. 14. 24 , 25. ibid. 6. from john 3. 21. ibid. 7. from phil. 2. 15 , 16. & ephes . 5. 13 , 14. ibid. but that the chiefest of all these particulars , or any that can be exhibited , is a clear understanding and knowledg of god , and of the sacred scriptures , and the secrets thereof , and of the secrets and mysteries of his sacred kingdom : because without all controversie , great is the mysterie of godliness , as the apostle saith , col. 1. 26. 27 , 28. rom. 16. 25. ephes . 3. 9. 2 tim. 1. 10. titus 1. 2. pag. 27. to which a reason is rendred , drawn from the contrary , luke 8. 10. mark 4. 33 , 34. mat. 13. ibid. and a consequence gathered , backed with 1 cor. 4. 5. & matth. 10. 19. ibid. and an objection answered , to satisfie such who count it immodesty . pag. 28. 1. and another to satisfie such who object , that speaking unto men to edification , and exhortation , and comfort , is not properly to prophecy , because prophecying is foreshewing of things to come ; which is fully answered , and clearly vindicated , that it is properly prophecying , as the apostle asserteth it from heb. 11. 1. & john 10. 10. & 1 john 5. 11 , 12 , 13. 1 cor. 14. 1 , 3 , 4. and the chief of all for the perfecting of the saints , and for the work of the ministry , and for the edification of the body of christ , ephes . 4. 11 , 12 , 13 , 14 , 15 , 16. pag. 29. 2. and secondly , that it is a more present evidence and demonstration of the spirit then shewing of things to come , as agabus did ; for till the things be come , they do not manifest the spirit of god. pag. 29 , 30. 3. and thirdly , the danger is shewed to those that despise , or resist , and disparage these things or ways , &c. or them that use them ; or to any authority that will not suffer it , and give liberty to all them , whose spirit god hath raised , to build up the churches in their most holy faith , lest wrath be upon them from the lord , as ezra 1. 5 , 6. & chap. 13. 16 , 23. & chap. 8. 22 , 23. & psal . 2. pag. 31. 32 , 33. yea , that it is matter of dangerous consequence , either to act , or comply with such ; shew'd by many reasons , and all objections answered fully , which are too many , and too large to abreviate . pag. 47. 4 assertion is , concerning their independency , in respect of other churches , whiles they do well , as rom. 13. 3 , 4. & 1 pet. 3. to the 23. & chap. 4. 1 , 2. & 12. with the reasons that necessarily engage them so to stand , which are unanswerable . pag. 47. to 53. 5 assertion is , concerning their maintaining the power , and kingdom , and supremacy of christ ; in which it is shewed , that they necessarily assume democracy to maintain his monarchy against antichristian tyranny and usurpation . pag. 53. to 56. 6 assertion is , that they are justly stricter in keeping themselves within their own sphere , in not judging those that are without in the apostles sense , 1 cor. 5. 12. in a spiritual way , as mat. 18. 15. to 21. pag. 56. 57 , 58. having done with the presbyterians for the time present , here is three grand particulars instanced in against the independents , and punctually argued from scripture grounds . 1. first , concerning ordination of ministers , and other officers . pag. 58. to 63. 2. secondly , concerning the authoritative acting of an assembly of churches in the name of god , and the lord jesus christ , wherein is proved , that withdrawing of communion is not sufficient , but they ought to proceed even to excommunication , yea even to execration , if their sin so deserve , as for toleration of idolatry , blasphemy , and such haynous sins in their church-members or officers . pag. 63. to 68. 3. thirdly , concerning their strictness in tryal of all whom they admit to partake of the sacraments , which is named pag. 68. but prosecuted and argued against them from pag. 72. to the end of the book . but betwixt pag. 68. and pag. 72. the authors apprehensions , partly abreviating what hath formerly been said , are proposed briefly by way of result ; and then objections answered concerning this main difference about admission to the sacraments , and other particulars before named , to the end of the book . forasmuch as the author doth in all things hold forth charity , which is the bond of perfectness , col. 3. 14. and that we are bound to prove all things , hold fast that which is good , 1 thes . 5. 21. therefore , i say unto the ensuing treatise , imprimatur theodore jennings . august 9. 1649. an husbandmans harrow to pull down the ridges of the presbyteriall government , and to smooth a little the independent ; that both they and others might walk together upon plaine scripture grounds without stumbling on the ridgeness of either or both . the end of a thing ( saith wise solomon ) is better then the beginning thereof . therefore it follows , that the end of a thing ought chiefly to be eyed as a mark to shoot at , yea , as the complement , and perfection of all endeavours , and means , and waies to attain such end . and so likewise the apostle paul , by the spirit of god , giveth us clearely to understand , that the end of the commandement is love , out of a pure heart , and a good conscience , and faith unfained , 1 tim. 1. 5. from which we may justly argue ; that if love , &c. be the end of the commandement : and if the end be better , then the means , to attain it . cons . then the means for the accomplishment , ( and that should lead unto , or acquire such an end , ) ought not to be pleaded , or set against ; nor valued and esteemed above the end . reas . for then it utterly frustrates , and makes the meanes void , if we rob or spoile it of its proper end ; and so both end and means are utterly vain . instan . as for instance he that pleadeth the law against justice or legality of proceedings in matter of state , against the good , and peace , and safety of the people . he pleadeth against both the law , and justice , and against the good and safety of the people : and not only so , but he disparageth the law , and legall proceedings . as if they intended not , or at least , were not able to attaine their end , but were made on purpose to obstruct such justice , as ought to be their end , for which they are made . and though it is true , that the law of god , being of absolute perfection , can never properly be so pleaded ; yet unjustly , and improperly , it both may , and is ; though it ought not so to be , but the quite contrary , as hath been said . but how much more ought the lawes of men , ( being not absolutely perfect , nor sufficently wise to attain their end ) never to be pleaded ; but with chief reference , and cleare respect to the end thereof . so that he that objects , or pleads them at all ; should hold forth with them , even the end it self ; and should make it manifest , how the law he pleadeth , tendeth as a means , to acquire unto , or bring about such end : lest he plead the law against justice , as some have done ; though deeply learned in the laws of the land ; endangering thereby , to establish arbitrary , tyrannicall power , greater then before : concerning which , there is enough already , and at large exprest to the whole kingdom . only this i add , that i cannot but wonder , how any rationall man can ever desire such enslaving power ; or delight to use it , if he had it granted , considering 1. first , they can never rationally , nor justly expect , nor be certainly assured , of the cordial affection of any such subjects , who are but subjected by arbitrary , cruel and tyrannical power . for all subjection , that is but meerly enforc'd , is evidently clear , to be defective in love . 2. secondly all meer force by power , &c. is so far short of provoking unto love , or any cordial affection , or honor indeed ; as that it dis-ingageth and repels the affection , and force of love , and of all proper uniting principles ; and quite diverteth them into enmity and hatred , and dis-esteem : especially , in case , when the honor and service which is forc'd unto , is not just and proper ; but undue , unsuitable , and more then just , and without desert . 3. thirdly , as the scripture speaks , for a man to seek his own glory , is not glory , no , it is his shame ; for when pride commeth , then cometh shame : and it is not only lawful but even the bounden duty of them that love the lord , to hate evil , as pride , and arrogancie , and the evill way . and even the mouth that speaketh proud things , they ought to hate . 4. fourthly , what honor is it , or what glory , or renown , for a man to rule and have the command ; yea , or to sway a scepter over a kingdom of slaves ? were it not his shame amongst kingdoms of men ? and what renown could he possibly get in time of wars , by leading forth his slaves to battel , to engage them in service against armies of men ? would they not cowardly desert him , and leave him naked , rather then lose their lives , which are alwaies deare unto slavish men ? they are alwaies so ignoble , and of such timorous spirits , in case of danger . and then also , in regard they are not ingaged , nor bound cordially unto him , through personall love , and of their voluntary accord , but enslav'd through force ; they will not care , if they find an opportunity for their owne safety , and release from him , if they sell him into the hands of their greatest enemies , or lay violent hands on his person themselves , as it often is ; yea , and for the most part , there is few tyrants that escape murther , or just execution , but it is their end . by the just judgement of the merciful god , who loveth mercy , but hateth cruelty , wrong , and tyranny , and will avenge it , though justice faile in the hands of men , one time or other , look isai . 14. 18 , 19 , 20 , 21 , 22 , 23. look also vers . 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14 , 15 , 16 , 17. for the same measure , that men mete unto others ; the same shall be measured unto them again . but why should i wonder , to see us all prone to be ambitious , proud , haughty ; seeing we are not fully and throughly rational , but in a great measure lead with sensuality . but were we throughly rational , how could we be proud , that are dust and ashes , and know our selves such , and that we are but mortal ? seeing he alone , who is the only potentate , the king of kings , and lord of lords , hath immortality , and dwelleth in light which is inaccessible , which no man can approach unto , whom no man hath seen , nor can see ; to whom alone be ascribed , honour and power everlasting , amen , amen . but thus much briefly , by way of introduction , or preambulation , to what i chiefly intend to fall upon , as of all points most meet and necessary , to be insisted on in these contentious , quarrellous , and perillous times : i mean , in regard of that great dissention , that is now amongst us , about the churches government , and discipline , &c. concerning which , i shall endeavour , through the grace of god , to keep close to the principles that i have premised , and that as briefly as may be . and shall cast in also even this poor mite into the churches treasury , and that by way of proposal , as ayming chiefely at the proper end , which is the end of the commandement , as hath been said . for without all controversie , that which is the end of all the commandements , should be all our ends , in all our endeavours , and undertakings . but the undoubted end of all the commandements , is doubtless , [ love ] out of a pure heart , and good conscience , and faith unfeigned . this therefore being the proper end ; i shall hold it forth in all the means , that i shall propose , from the law of god ; and shall carry it along in my own intention ; and also make it manifest , as much as possible , how such meanes , properly tendeth to atchieve that end ; and how useful and necessary such means is , to attain there unto , the lord assisting : who is able to do it , and to make it clear . 1. and first then , because it do appeare to be against [ love ] to god above all , and our neighbours as our selves . it is worthy to be rejected ; for even the whole law is contained in this ; yea , what ever it be that is against love , is against god ; for god is love , and love cometh of god ; and is shed abroad in our hearts by the holy ghost ; and if we be partakers of this divine love which is shed in our hearts , by the holy ghost ; we are made partakers of the godly nature ; and it is of all others , the first and chiefest of those fruits of the spirit , and the most essentiall , 1 joh. 4. 7 , 8 , 12 , 13 , 16 , 17. and so is a clear evidence , that god dwelleth in us , and we in him ; for the love of god is essentially of god , such love , i meane as cometh of god. 2. and secondly , if it do appear to be against this love , out of a pure heart ; it is also worthy to be rejected ; for what ever law , doctrine , or argument shall be proposed , to oblige men to in purity , either in heart , or life , it is without all controversie against the law of god ; for blessed are the pure in heart , for they shall see god , and men ought to keep themselves pure , mat. 5. 8. 1 tim. 5. 22. especially in heart , for thereout cometh the issues of life . 3. thirdly , if it be propos'd against a good conscience , it is worthy to be rejected , as not included in the law of god. for all laws , doctrines , or arguments , whatsoever they are that would ingage us against a good conscience , manifestly grounded on the word of god , and of sound doctrine , that cannot be reproved ; we ought to reject them , and yeeld no obedience , nor approbation thereunto , either in obedience unto men , or to please them , &c. for we must not be men pleasers , nor servants of men , but obey god rather then men ; and ought to love , and therefore serve , and honor , and please him , rather then men . for all the men in the whole universe , cannot by any meanes give men liberty of conscience to commit sinne ; if their conscience tell them , and be convinced from the law of god , that they ought not to do it , as rom. 2. 11 , 12 , 13 , 14 , 15. but their consciences , will accuse , and condemne them also ; and that in the day of judgement , when god shall judge the secrets of men , by jesus christ , according to the gospel . therefore , as they cannot properly give men liberty of conscince , no more then save , and exempt men from punishment due for their sinnes against conscience ; they ought not to binde , or engage men to obedience unto any law , against a good conscience , rightly grounded on the law of god , as hath been said ; but should give men libertie , to be as strict and severe , and as carefull , and watchful , and as inquisitive is they please , how to keep a good conscience , voyd of offence both to god and men . 4. fourthly , if any law , or argument , or motion whatsoever , shall be made against faith ; to wit , unfaigned faith , as that we should not beleeve or trust in god , but in something else ; or that we should beleeve , or put hope and confidence in any thing else ; or that we should not beleeve whatsoever he saith , or proposeth to us in his sacred word , or biddeth us beleeve , &c. we ought to reject it ; yea , though all the men and churches in the world , would ingage us to beleeve , what they assert and resolve upon , as being most able , because wise and learned ; and because a multitude of counsellors to determine and resolve , what ought to be beleeved in such a case . yet if we certainly know , that the word of god affirmeth the contrary ; we ought to beleeve it , and to reject their resolves , and counsels and assertions , be they what they will ; and must not conform , nor comply with them , nor approve the same . but if an angel from heaven , or the whole world being become an arrian , should decree , or teach us , the arrian heresie , we should let him be accursed ; and so also for any other doctrine , then may be made manifest , as it ought to be , from sacred scripture . there is a time spoken of zach. 13. when men shall be so zealous against false prophets , and false prophesying , that a mans father and his mother that begat him , shall say unto him , thou shalt not live ; for thou speakest lyes in the name of the lord ; and his father and his mother , that begat him , shall thrust him through , when he prophesie , zach. 13. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6. we must therefore resolve , to let god be true , and every man a lyar , and therefore rather to beleeve him , then all , and every , or any man in the whole world . and also we must and ought to draw neer unto god , in full assurance of faith , not casting away our confidence in god , which hath great recompence of reward ; for faith in god is of all other graces , love excepted , the most chief and principal , and the most essential ; for it is said of faith and love , that they are in christ jesus ; yea , though now in heaven . it is not said , that they were in christ ▪ to wit , when he was on earth , but that they are in christ jesus ; for when the apostle writ so of him , he was ascended already into heaven ; yea , and though he be in heaven , yet he is said to dwel in mens hearts by faith. and therefore such faith may well be called a precious faith , being so properly essential to the spirit of christ ; as that where faith dwelleth , christ also dwelleth properly and essentially , even by his holy spirit : for faith and love , which are in christ jesus , are not onely fruits , but they are essentiall witnesses of his holy spirit abiding in us : he that beleeveth ( saith the apostle ) hath the witnesse in himself : 1 joh. 5. 10. and so he that loveth , it is also a witness that he is born of god , and knoweth god , chap. 4. 7. and that he also dwelleth in us , vers . 12. and that he hath given us of his spirit , vers . 13. and so that we are made partakers of the godly nature , 2 pet. 1. 4. and have in some measure , even the mind of christ , and the spirit of christ , though yet but in measure , because of our finite capacities : whereas in christ , even the fulness of the godhead dwelleth bodily , or rather essentially . therefore it follows , that what ever arguments , or laws , or doctrines , make against faith , or that but tend to the weakning thereof , or that would hinder our edifying , and being built up in faith and love , which are in christ jesus ; should utterly be rejected , as ungodly , unjust , untrue , opposite , and contradictory to the law of god , and to his sacred word , which is one , and cannot be broken , nor alleged properly for such an end ; and therefore these foure rules may stand as cautions , that we admit not any thing , contrary hereunto ; though it should be urged , and presented to us , or proposed , or commanded , in the name of god ; or as being grounded on his sacred word : for it it crosse , or oppose , or would deprive us , or make void to us this end of the commandement , to wit , love out of a pure heart , and good conscience , and faith unfained ; it is false , and wicked , and that which will not stand with the law it self , and therefore ought to be rejected of all good men : and therefore with full purpose to keep to these rules , as the end also of what i do intend , i shall further propose these ensuing grounds and arguments , both as intending and tending to a reconciliation , and full agreement of the church of god , in respect of government , and the discipline thereof , as hereafter follows . 1 ground is , that it is lawful , yea , and the bounden duty of some men , and of some women , to be more abstenious from things lawful in themselves , and to bind themselves to a stricter discipline then others need to engage themselves , or be bound unto , or be absteni●us from . reas . for it is the duty of some men , and of some women , to make themselves chaste for the kingdom of heavens sake , mat. 19 ●● . & 1 cor. 7. for the kingdom of heavens sake , that is to say , that they might be more free , both from the cares of this life , and from all carnal engagements , or disturbances , or distractions , and inducements whatsoever ; that might either trouble , or molest them , or engage their mindes , or withdraw their affections , or hinder their devotions , both of bodies and spirits , in respect of god. but that they might fully consecrate , and devote themselves , both soules and bodies , to the sacred government of his grace and spirit ; that the kingdom of god , by his grace and spirit , might have full scope and dominion in them , both of their soules and bodies ; and that they might more freely attend , and waite on the lord , without separation , or without disturbance , or cumber , or distraction , by any meanes : but might glorifie god both in their bodies and spirits : and that with all their hearts , with all their souls , with all their minds , and with all their strength , as so the law of god requires they should . for this is the measure of our love to god , that the law requires , and that christ exemplified , and commanded likewise , that he that can receive this , should receive it . and it is also the apostle pauls advice , by the spirit of god , as better for such , who can abstain that they should not marry , if they had power over their own wills ; that is to say , had they gift of continency , as matth. 19. 10 , 11. 1 cor. 7. 37 , 38 , 39. 40. and this also the apostle exemplified , and wished that all men were even as he himself in that particular . and thus therefore , i hope that no man will deny , but that it were better for some , both men and women ; such especially , who have the gift of continencie , to abstain from marriage , and make themselves chaste , for the kingdom of heavens sake , but that they may thus doe , it is good for such not to touch a woman , as 1 cor. 7. 1. and yet for all this , marriage is honourable amongst all men , and is ordained of god , and some are called of god to that estate ; and do in that estate , live a holy and a blameless life . enoch walked with god , after he begat methuselah , three hundred years , and begat sons and daughters , gen. 22. 24. of whom it was witnessed , that he had pleased god , and that he was therefore translated , that he should not see death , hebr. 11. 5. and it was lawfull for peter to lead about a wife , a sister , and so for the brethren of the lord , and cephas . and zachary and elizabeth were both righteous before the god , walking in the commandements , and ordinances of the lord blameless , as luke 1. 5 , 6. and david was a man after gods own heart , save in the matter of vriah : and yet had many wives , and concubines : and adam in innocency , before he sinned , had his wife , and was commanded to be fruitfull , and multiply , and replenish the earth , &c. and how else should men be multiplied , and succeed , &c. but by means of procreation , as god hath ordained , and appointed , and called men ; as doubtless , he hath , some after this manner , and some after that : for it were a wicked antichristian doctrine , to forbid to marry , or to command to abstaine from meats , which god hath commanded , to be received with thanks-giving , 1 tim. 4. 3 , 4 , 5. but such who are so called , and inclin'd for marriage , are not very suitable for consociation with such-as make themselves chaste , nor they for them , in these respects . 2. and secondly , it is lawful for some , to give all their goods unto the poor , and to give their bodies to be burned , 1 cor. 13. 3. and in case , when called of god , and required so to do , it is their duty . for the young man in the gospel , ought to have done so , as christ advised him , that he might be perfect . and it had been good for him so to have done ; for in consideration thereof , he might have had treasure in heaven , and have followed christ , math. 19. 21. and also , whosoever will save his life , ( when christ calleth him to part with it ) shall lose it ; but whosoever shall lose it for his sake , shall finde it , math. 16. 24 , 25 , 26. and math. 10. 32 , 33 , 34 , 35 , 36 , 37 , 38 , 39. and it is lawfull for such , who are of one heart , and of one soul , to have all things common , and not to title , or claime any thing , that any of such possesseth as his own , acts 4. 32. but such , amongst such , as are possessors of lands , may lawfully sell them , and bring the price thereof , and lay it down at the ministers feet ; that distribution may be made unto every man , ( amongst them ) according as he hath need ; as vers . 34. 35. 37. but this community is only proper amongst such as are of one heart . and yet for all this , he that provideth not for his own , especially them of his houshold , he is worse then an infidel . and riches are given to some , as great blessings ; as to abraham , and david , and salomon , and joab , &c. and it is a more blessed things to be a giver , then a receiver . and men have a true and just propertie in their own goods , or estates , as acts 5. 4. and it is in their own power , neither ought any to be compelled to such community of goods , and estates ; nor to distribute and communicate , but as they doe it freely , of their own voluntary minds without grudging , or any impulsion , as of necessity , either to the poor , or to the ministery , as gal. 6. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10. and 2 cor. 9. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , &c. and the apostle moved them ; not as speaking by commandement , but by reason of the forwardness of others , and the example of christ , who being rich , for their sakes became poor ; that they through his poverty might be rich , as chap. 8. 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 14. and that supplying each others , there might be equallity , as vers . 14. 15. as doubtless , to such who are mutually affected , it is no more , but equal , and therefore a duty , but otherwise not , but were a sin . 3. it is lawful for a man to beat down his body , and to bring it in subjection , by fasting , and by labour and travaile night and day , as 2 cor. 11. 23 , 24 , 25 , 26 , 27 , &c. it is not unlawfull to fast often ; yea , twice in the week , like the scribes and pharisees . yea , it is lawful for man and wife to defrande one another , with consent , for a time ; that they may give themselves unto fasting and prayer , so they come together again ; that satan tempt them not , for their incontinency , as 1 cor. 7. 5. and they that do thus , doubtless may see cause for it , why they should fast ( sometimes ) when they give themselves unto prayer . as first , because when the stomack is empty , the whole strength of the soul , and spirit , is set at liberty ; ( it not being bent and imployed in digestion of meat . ) that with full bent of all the powers , and faculties , both of soul and body , they may strive and wrestle with god in prayer , and be the more faithfull and confident ; and the more capable and apprehensive of spiritual understanding : for when the stomach is burthened and cloyed with meat , the strength of the spirit is necessarily engaged , for digestion of the same ; and makes the minde drowsie , and dull , and the more uncapable , and unfit for communion and fellowship with god , and for the presence and power of his holy spirit , working therein , and acting , and exercising , and inlarging the same , according to his will ; making request for the saints , according to the will of god , even with sight , and groans , that canned be expressed . it is therefore meet , upon serious occasions , of seeking unto god , that we fast and pray , with fulness of devotion , and fervencie of spirit , if we would obtain . and secondly , in regard that some things are not attainable ; some kind of devils not cast out , but by fasting and prayer , mar. 9. 29. which cleerly implies , that fasting and prayer jointly , are more powerfull and prevalent with god , then when severed , as prayer only . and yet for all this , it was lawful for peter , and the rest of the apostles to eat and drink , &c. and who could eat , or who else could hasten unto outward things , more then wise salomon , who seriously concludes ; that there is nothing better for a man , then that he should eat and drink , and he should make his soul to enjoy the fruit of his labour ; and this he saw , that it was of the hand of god. for god giveth to a man that is good in his sight , wisdom , and knowledge , and joy ; but to the sinner , he giveth travaile ; to gather , and to heap up , that he may give to him , that is good before god , eccles . 2. 24 , 25 , 26. and the lord jesus , even christ himselfe , as his own words do plainly declare ; that contrary to the practice of john the baptist , he the son of man came eating , and drinking , eating bread , and drinking wine ; insomuch that they said of him , behold a gluttenous man , and a wine-bibber , a friend of publicans and sinners , luke 7. 34. and the disciples of john fasted often , but his disciples fasted not whiles he was with them . and therefore it follows ; that as there is diversities of gifts , and of administrations , and operations given out by the self same spirit , dividing to every man severally as he will. even so accordingly , men are called of god , one after this manner , and another after that ; and have so also their proper gifts of god , as 1 cor. 7. 7. and as god hath distributed to every man , as the lord hath called every one , so he ought to walk , for so the apostle ordained in all churches , as vers . 17. and therefore it follows , that it must not be expected , that every man should be alike absteneous from the things of this life ; not bind themselves to so strict a discipline , both over their bodies and minds , &c. as some others , both will , and can , and ought , to doe . 4. the apostle paul , after the most strict sect of the jewish religion , he lived a pharisee ; which clearly implies , that at least , there were three that were several sects of the jewish religion ; of which the pharisees were the strictest ; and yet they were all religious men , and of the true religion too : there were scribes , and pharisees , and saduces , and all religious and zealous also in their own wayes , and according to their own traditions , and doctrines ; though they something differed amongst themselves ; yet they were all tolerated by the civil state ; and the civil state was not reprehended either by john the baptist , or by christ himself , for such toleration : but their false doctrines , and covetousness , and hypocrisie , were reproved , and sharply too . 1. consequence , and therefore it follows , that all ought not to be compell'd to engage themselves , to so strict , and holy , and severe a discipline , as ought to be tolerated , and practised by others who can embrace , and freely engage to endure the same , considering these grounds before named . 2. and secondly it follows , that a stricter discipline ought to be tolerated by the civil magistrate ; that such who please , and can freely accord , to engage themselves to the exercise thereof , ( amongst themselves ) may have liberty to doe it : provided they offer not to inforce their way . then ought to be imposed , or made as a general , and binding rule , or way of government , to which all must necessarily be ingaged in or bound unto . reason . for it is the duty of some men , as hath been said , to bind themselves to a stricter discipline then others need , or ought to doe . the one being qualified , through the grace of god , and fitted for it ; and so manifestly ingaged and called of god , so to doe : but the other not qualified ; nor so disposed , through the grace of god , are manifestly , engaged , and called of god , to the quite contrary , as in these foure instances , above written . 1. concerning chastity or marriage . 2. concerning community of goods , or claiming of propriety . 3. concerning fasting , or eating and drinking . 4. concerning being of the strictest sect of the true religion , such as was the pharsees ; or of one more remiss , such as was the scribes . but it will be demanded , how these may be applicable to the matter in hand ? i answer , that as the case stands betwixt man and man in these particulars ; so it doth also betwixt church and church : for they are all governed by the same law , and by the same spirit , and the case is the same in every respect ▪ 1. for such who make themselves chaste for the kingdom of heavens sake , it is good for such not to touch a woman , as 1 cor. 7. 1. and therefore they ought to be carefull how they carry themselves in such respects . and it is not lawful for such to marry , if they so resolve , and know they have power over their own wills , as hath beer said before . even so a church being rightly constituted , and having divine power , and authority given her , through faith in god , and the lord jesus christ : and that desires to be presented , as a chaste virgin onely unto christ , and to be governed by him . it is not lawful , for such a church , or at least , not good for her , to binde her selfe , to be subject to the vote , or power and jurisdiction of other churches that are not constituted as a chaste virgin onely unto christ ; and to be ruled by him , and by his word and spirit . or if they be not resolved , to be as chast as she , and as fully subject to the rules , and laws , and waies of christ , but think they ought to consociate with such , who are more loose in their doctrine , and government , and ways , &c. which as yet she cannot resolve to do , upon any principles she hath yet received from christ her head . and there is a resemblance nto a little remarkable , held forth to us by the holy ghost , betwixt the husband and wife , and christ and his church , ephes . 5. 22. &c. both of them , being bound to be subject alike , though yet in the lord. and as it is so , that there is cause of jealousie , that some women will not continue chaste . so there is cause of jealousie , that some churches will not be espoused unto one husband : that they may be presented , as a chaste virgin to christ ; but their minds will be corrupted from the simplicity that is in christ , as 2 cor. 11. 2 , 3 , 4. secondly , as it is with a man , as hath been said , so it is with a church , in the second particular : for , if a particular church shall amongst themselves , being of one heart , and of one minde , have all things common , and none of them claime propriety of goods , as meerly his own ; but that they may be distributed , as every one hath need . as so it is lawful , if they can so agree , and do it freely without grudging , or repining : yet it were unlawful , and a folly , and madness , to joyne themselves so in community of goods , to such in whom they could not expect the like community , they being quit of a contrary minde , and heart , &c. like ananias and saphirah , covetous and hypocritical , and only ayming at carnal ends . thirdly , and so likewise , as it lawful for a particular man , to give themselves much unto fasting and prayer , as hath been said . even so it is likewise , for a particular church , if they so agree amongst themselves , to give themselves much unto fasting and payer , as in their apprehension , they shall think they have cause ; for the good of their soules , in general or particular . where it may be on the contrary , some other churches , in their apprehensions , have more cause of thankfulness ; finding for the present , that the bridegroom is with them . as so for this reason , the disciples of christ fasted not , whereas the disciples of john fasted often . and why then , should churches of different judgments , in these respects , be bound by authority , all to rejoyce , or all to mourn , and fast , and pray , at the same times , and no more frequently ; but as all can agree , so to humble themselves . and how should it chuse , but ingage men to hypocrisie , save only in case of some general judgment , of which we are certain , that all are sencible and affected with it . and fourthly , and lastly , as it is lawful for a particular man , to be of the strictest sect of the true religion , such as were the pharisees . so it is lawful for a particular church , to be of the strictest way , in respect of government , doctrine , and discipline , that can be devised , or made good from scripture , as lawful , &c. and the magistrate ought not to enforce her , to conform unto any churches , that are more remisse and loose , or careless , or not so strict , or careful , and conscientious , as they ought to be . though i will not deny , but the magistrate ought to tollerate , such who think they ought not to be so strict , as well as the other . for as all good men whose general bent , is the glory of god ; cannot attain such measures , or degrees of grace , and wisdom , as of faith and holiness , and of zeal , &c. one as another . even so all churches , though they be true churches , cannot possibly attain , to be so rightly constituted , and so severe , and strict , in discipline , and government , and doctrine , &c. as others can , though the stricter , the better , in some respect , as i shall hereafter shew ; though in some things to be over strict is a foule fault . the one conceiving , that they ought to proceed , according to the rule of charity , and the other of certainty . the one expecting , but faith historical , in their admissions ; but the other searching , for faith justifying , such as appeares by works , in all such whom they doe approve . as there is strong arguments , that might easily be produced on both patties , even from sacred scripture , that it is not easie to reconcile . i hope , they will not say , that either of them yet , have clearly demonstrated , from sacred scriptures , their owne resolves concerning baptisme : i shall therefore , it may be , propose betwixt them ; something of that . but from these precedent grounds , first , it is clear , that these conclusions , will justly reprove , and , i hope , convince , both the independents , and presbyterians ; in that they do not labour to accord , and love , and strive to live and carry as bretheren , and communicate together in all the ordinances , as bretheren ought , and as occasion serves . but the one striving to enforce conformity to their wayes , and rules , and principles , &c. to which ( in conscience ) they , it may be , are engaged . and the other , blaming , and condemning them , as too remisse , and not so upright and conscientious , nor walking by so just and strict a rule , in constitution , government , and discipline of the congregations , as they ought to do , and as they are resolved to engage themselves , and therefore seek for liberty so to do . by this means they fall at varience , and fall out by the way , and about the way , though they be bretheren , and so doe know , and acknowledge each other . and first then , let them both consider , this falling out by the way , is not ( like ) as they were bretheren , for by this saith christ , all men shall know that ye are my disciples ; if ye love one another . is this like love , which is the end of the commandement , as is before proposed , even thus to bite , and devoure , and destroy one another ? and all because that both parties , but seeing in part , and knowing in part , and understanding in part , are of different judgements . as so they are likely as yet to be in some thing or other , whiles it is so with them , as that they are not perfect , till that which is in part shall be done away . and what then , will they never agree , till they all be perfect ? will they never love , till in every particular , they be of one judgment ? but it will be objected , that men who think themselves in a right way , and others wrong ; and holding forth their arguments from cleare scripture grounds that are sufficient to convince themselves : they are apt to think that the other are obstinate , and that they see , and will not see , nor acknowledge the truth : so that they cannot chuse but be in a great measure out of charity with them : as accounting them perverted , and men that sin , being damned of their own consciences . answ . i answer , that if we can know for certain , after once or twice admonition , that men sinne , being damned of their own consciences , it is a foule thing , such ought to be rejected , tit. 3. 10 , 11. but such must be known to be hereticks , and obstinate , &c. and therefore observe the nature of love in this kind , that we be not censorious , and too too injurious , in judging our bretheren in this kind . for charity , ( saith the apostle ) suffereth long , and is kind : charity envieth not , nor vanteth not it self , nor 〈◊〉 it pufft up : doth not behave it self unseemly ; seeketh not her own , is not easily provoked , thinketh no evill : rejoyceth not in iniquity , but rejoyceth in the truth ; beareth all things , beleeveth all things , hopeth all things , endureth all things , &c. 1 cor. 13. 4 , 5 , 6 , 7. and seeing that all these are natural properties of that love which is the end of the commandment : let us try our selves by all these properties , whether we have behaved , and carried our selves accordingly towards such , before we censure , and let our hearts loose , to reject and oppose , and deal with them as enemies of god. we ought not to hate , nor to deal with such as enemies at all ; but to love , and pitty , and pray for them ; and acknowledge them brethren , and admonish them as brethren , though they seem to walk disorderly , and obey not the word even of god himselfe in some things , 2 thess . 3. 14 , 15. and mat. 5. 44 , 45 , 46 , 47 , 48. though i doe confesse , that if any man love not the lord jesus christ , he ought to be held even in execration , if it manifestly appear . and we ought to contend earnestly for the faith which was once delivered to the saints , jud. 3. and we should stand fast to our christian liberty wherewith christ hath made us free , and not be entangled again with yokes of bondage , nor suffer men to rule over us at their pleasure , according to their own fancies , or arbitrary wills , not submitted to the laws of god ; nor holding to the head , and to the foundation , &c. coloss . 1. 18. and chap. 2. 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , &c. but still always , with due respect to their persons ; as pittying their ignorance , weakness , infirmities , failings , and imperfections that we discover in them . as considering our selves , lest we also be tempted , and that we also have been in like condition , in one particular respect or another ; having been erronious , and misapprehensive , and offensive unto others , in such respects : for who that lives , but if he will examine , he may remember that he hath erred from the truth , in some thing or other : and been reduced and convinced by others ; or by searching of the scriptures have seen our selves ( as of our selves ) subject to all , or to any error . and that we ought to acknowledge , that it is of grace , and the gift of god ; that we are sufficient , or able to know or understand any thing of the things of god. and why then should we be high minded , and not rather fear , least we also fall , or fail , &c. of the grace of god ? or why then should we be too confident , either that we do not , or that we cannot err ? and if we do not expect , that men should think so of us , why are we so angry , that all men are not just on our minds ? and that they will not follow us , nor conforme unto us , just in our wayes ? doth it not imply , that we think of our selves above that which is meet ? to wit , that we cannot erre , and expect that others should thinke so likewise . and what is this lesse then the pope , that antichrist , and the church of rome challenge to themselves ; and by reason thereof exalt themselves above the magistrates , above all that is called god , or that is worshipped ▪ &c. whereas on the contrary part , it is manifest , that the generality of the whole christian world , hath erred iexceedingly : was it not once said , that the whole world was become an arrian ? nay , were not all the opposers of the arrian heresie , in an error likewise , both one and another ? to wit , those that maintained , that the trinity of persons was one substance . for though the trinity of persons be one and the same in essence , yet they are not one substance , for the blessed deity is all essence , as the scripture is clear , exod. 3. 14. i am that i am : to wit , that he [ is , ] is all essence . but no proof can be made from scripture ground ; that the invisible god is any substance at all , but an infinite essence , and not locally circumscriptible , as all substance is : but unlimitably existent ; filling both all place , and every substance , both in heaven and earth , and infinitely beyond them on every side : circumventing all things , and filling all things , even from the very top of the highest heavens , to the middle , and bowels or center of the earth : and yet he himself is not cirumvented , with any thing at all ; no , not with [ place ] it self : in which , as phylosophers speak , all things stand : but is infinite and unlimitable , without circumference , and without center ; the heavens of heavens are not able to containe him , but he filleth all things : as the scripture is clear , and as might evidently and convincingly also be made to appeare to any rational man , by reasons and arguments , drawn from the motion and government of all things , and constant course , and subsistence of the heavens , and of the earth , and waters , and all visible creatures : for who else is the efficient cause of their being , and subsistence , and of their motion , &c. look rom. 1. 18 , 19 , 20 , 21. and psalm . 19. 1 , &c. but if all may erre , and every one hath erred ; and it may be doth erre in some thing or other : then all and every particular man , ought to fear himself , lest he also do erre , and that in such particulars , wherein he thinketh , that he justly opposeth , and condemneth others : and ought to search the scriptures , and to search the meaning of the spirit , even in the scripture it self : and to be sure of that , before he be too confident , and surious in opposition , or judging of others , as hereticks , &c. he that thinketh he standeth , take heed lest he fall . he that thinketh he knoweth any thing , knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know , saith the spirit of god. then we ought therefore to put on charity , which is the bond of perfectness : and not to break off love , but upon sure grounds , that they are enemies of god , whom we so judge , and censure , &c. but for more punctuall applycation of these precedent conclusions unto both parties , to wit , to the independents and presbyterians , i shall briefly assert these cleare consequences from the aforesaid grounds : first to the one , and then to the other . and first then , to the presbyterians i assert as followeth , in behalf of the independents . 1. that it is lawful yea and the bounden duty of some men , to binde themselves to a stricter discipline , then others need or ought to do : the one being quallified , through the grace of god , and fitted for it , and so manifestly ingaged , and called of god so to do , for the time present , whiles they think they ought . 2. to the independents , that the presbyterians not being so qualified , or disposed , or called , through the grace of god ; but manifestly ingaged , to the quite contrary ; and as is it were bound in spirit , within their own sphere , or place , or calling , or way , &c. ought so to continue , whiles they think they ought , till they be convinced from scripture grounds that it is their duty ; and that they are called of god , to a stricter rule , and way of discipline , then they yet do practise ; or can freely embrace , or engage to indure , as witness the foure precedent examples . consiqu . and therefore it followes , that a stricter discipline ought to be tollerated , by the civil state ; that such who please , and can freely accord , to engage themselves to the exercise thereof amongst themselves , may have liberty to do it : provided alwaies , that they do not offer to inforce others unto their way : but only the freedom , and liberty of themselves , and of their own , &c. then ought to be imposed , and made as a general , and binding rule , and way of government ; to which all must necessarily be ingaged in , or bound unto : as hath been said before . object . but it will be objected , seeing i propose this assertion to the presbyterians , in behalf of independents ; that it will be necessary , that i shew wherein the independents rules , and ways of discipline , are stricter then theirs ; for they are generally accounted , by the presbyterians , more remiss and loose in many respects ; giving way for libertie of all religions , without controule by the civil state , as so they speak of them . answ . i answer that their rules and principles , according to which they engage to act , are manfestly stricter , and lawfully too , in divers particulars , wherein i shall briefly instance : and wherein i thinke they are likewise ingaged , in duty and conscience so to do , though i will not deny , but many presbyterians are ingaged in conscience , to do the contrary , and are fully perswaded , that they ought so to do for the time present . 1. and first , they are stricter with whom they incorporate , and joyn themselves in church policy : and so far forth , as any particular church is politically joyned , for the government thereof , and for the good of the body in every respect . a church can never be too strict , but the stricter the better : and the more likely it is , to be well ordered and governed , and built both in faith and love , and all other graces and vertues whatsoever ; that may tend for the benefit and good of the whole . and therefore , their principles are to admit none to be incorporated with them , but men of approved fidelity : because according to their princples , they having liberty , and power in all church affairs , that are of joynt concernment , and that respect them all , as in elections , or ejections , admissions , or deprivations , receptions , or rejections ; receiving in , or casting out , from amongst themselves , they all having interest , as members of the body , have liberty , and power , for vote , or sufferage , as they are bound in conscience , and can see just cause , and render a reason of their faith , hope , or desires therein ; grounded upon scripture evidence , as so they ought to have . they , i say , according to their principles , having this power and liberty , &c. are bound to be strict , with whom they incorporate and joyn themselves : lest by sway of vote ; things should be carryed antichristian-wise , to the dishonour of god , and of the church , &c. by male administration of all the ordinances that concern them all , to be carefull of in the sight of god. for if men be admitted to have vote in election of ministers , and elders , and deacons , &c. that are not approved , for ficelity and fitness , to discern , in some good measure , whether they be men of good and honest report , and full of the holy ghost , and of wisdom , suitable for such a place ; they may cause the election and approbation of such as will defile the church with corrupt doctrine , and unsound principles , and ways , and manners , to their own destruction . and therefore all that are accounted to be truly religious , are not fit to be incorporated , as members of the body , to have liberty and power in such respects , till they come to ripeness and maturity of judgment in spiritual respects : in like case , as the levites , though they all were given as a gift unto aaron and to his sons , to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation , yet they were not to administer and wait on the service of the tabernacle , but from twenty and five years old , and up wards : and from the age of fifty years they were to cease waiting on the service thereof , and should serve no more , as numb . 8. 24 , 25 , 26. clearly implying , that onely in case of ripeness of judgment , and ableness , and fitness , for such a business , they ought to be used , and admitted , &c. but not otherwise , least they spoyl the government , of discipline , and service , that belongs unto them : however , notwithstanding , all that are accounted to be truly religious , ought to be admitted unto all the ordinaces , yea , even to the sacrament of the lords supper , though never so weak in understanding and knowledg , as all the levites , even during their minority ; yet aaron was appointed to bring them with him , for they might be present , though they did no service : and through they might not administer , and do the service of the tabernacle , yet they might be admitted to come neer with the rest , and to offer for themselves , though not for others , as the rest of the priests , as numb . 18. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , & chap. 16. 45. so that whatsoever concerned but themselves onely , they might come neer , and approach to do it , ( whereas no stranger might intermeddle ) though they might do no service that concerned the tabernacle , till they came to years : but of this more fully in another place . 2. and secondly , as they are stricter with whom they do incorporate , and joyn themselves , for these respects : even so , for the same ends and respects , they are very strict and conscientious , and ought so to be , that all that are found , and known to be men of approved fidelity , should thus incorporate and joyn themselves ; i say , their principles are , that all ought so to do , that live not too remote , but within convenient bounds , and in convenient numbers , for frequent assembling of themselves together : and to engage themselves in covenant unto god , in these respects , and unto all brotherly and christian duties , for better security , and deeper engagement , both to god and men , not to deal unfaithfully in all such business , as concerns them all , but without partiality , or respect of persons , as before god , and the lord jesus christ , and the elect angels . and all the account will be little enough , in things that concern the good of their souls , and the souls of posterities , that may yet succeed , to the end of the world ; for whom they ought to provide , and be careful for , that the gospel of peace , and of glad tydings , and all the ordinances , might be preached and administred , when they are gone in power and purity , as well as to themselves : and to beware of dogs , and evil workers , and wolves , &c. and as much as possible , to keep them out , least ungodly men , being crept in , should turn the grace of god into wantonness &c. and this gospel of peace , being a pearl so invaluable , as it were easie to shew , in every respect , can never be guarded with too great security , or deep engagement , nor too strictly kept from being soyled or defiled with the hands of men and though it be true , that the men of this world are wiser in their generations , ( and for conservation of their own liberties , priviledges , pearls and estates , and to confirm and secure them , even to their posterities after them , if possible for ever , ) then the children of light , as luk. 16. 8. mat. 7. 24 , 25. and may justly also rise up in judgment , and condemn our folly and carelessness herein : yet no man will say but that the children of light ought to be as wise in their generations , and in their precious things , and in the things of god , and that concern their souls , for so we ought , even to be wise as servants , though innocent as doves . and therefore to incorporate such as stand approved , and are men of fidelity , within convenient bounds , is doubtless the duty of all , and every such , in times of liberty , for publique administration of the ordinances of god , and for government and discipline : and in times of persecution , at the least privately , they ought so to do , without being restrained by the civil state , and limited , and kept within parochial bonds , against their christian liberties , and duties also , both to god , and men . 3. and thirdly , the principles of independents are stricter and neerer to the scripture rules for edifying of the church ; they do not limit the holy one of israel to speak in publike by the learned onely : for first , as the apostle saith , the manisestation of the spirit is given to every man to profit withal . 1 cor. 11. 7. assertion . from whence it naturally and manifestly flows , that to whomsoever the manifestation of the spirit is given , it is given to such to profit withal . it is objected . that the manifestation of the spirit are not so evident and perspicuous in these days , as in the primitive times ; and the witnessing thereunto by miracles is ceased , and therefore we may easily be deceived ; especially such who are unlearned and unstable , are easily deceived . ans . 1. i answer first , whether any now adays hath the manifestations of the spirit , yea , or no ; yet this assertion is true , for it doth not assert either . ans . 2. secondly , i answer , that if the manifestations of the spirit be not evident and demonstrable in these days , how can even the learned ministers preach as they ought , and as the apostles did , in the clear evidence and demonstration of the spirit , and of power , that so mens faith might not need to stand in the wisdom of men , but in the power of god , 1 cor. 2. 4. 5. ans . 3. thirdly , though for want of the witnessing thereunto by miracles , those who are carnal and do not beleeve , cannot discern the manifestations of the spirit , and the power of god , whereby men speak , as vers . 8 , 14. yet for all that , they may speak wisdom among them that are perfect ; yea , even the wisdom of god in a mystery , even the hidden wisdom , which god hath ordained before the world unto their glory ; and those secret mysteries , which eye hath not seen , neither ear heard , &c. which god hath prepared for them that love him , he doth reveal unto such by his spirit , vers . 6 , 7 , 8 , to 16. consequence . such therefore , though they be unlearned in the tongues , ( i mean ) who having received the spirit of god , are thereby spiritualiz'd , may discern all things , as vers . 10 , 15. yea , even the deep things of god. therefore it follows , that the manifestations of the spirit may be evident and demonstrable , even now in these days , to such who are spiritualiz'd through faith in god , though not to the carnal or worldly &c. who do account these spiritual things foolishness , as vers . 14. and wanting an eye of faith , cannot discern them ; because they are invisible : for as the light of the body is the eye , matth. 6. 22 , 23. so the light of the soul , whereby , and where-through it understandeth , or discerneth spiritual and invisible things , is the eye of faith. for as god himself being invisible , is only seen , or comprehended , and known through fatih : so are also the things of god , undiscernable without faith , heb. 11. quest . 1. but in what particular gifts , or qualifications , or administrations , or operations , are the manifestations of the spirit of god , and of power , evident and demonstrable in any that are not learned in the tongues , now in these days ? answ . i answer , that many of those , yea , and the chief of all those , that are reckoned up by the apostle , and are by him asserted , as manifestations of the spirit , 1 cor. 12. 8 , 9 , 10. and chap. 13. 3. are doubtless evident , and demonstrable in some unlearned in the tongues , even in these days . as 1. the word of wisdom . 2. the word of knowledg . 3. faith. 4. prophesying ; to wit , in speaking unto men , to edification , and exhortation , and comfort , which is the chief of all . 5. discerning of spirits . 6. interpretation of scriptures , that are dark and mysterious , and generally not understood . quest . 2. but may not some men , by means of good education , attain to a great measure of wisdom and knowledge , even in spiritual things : and so to the word of wisdom , and of knowledge , and to speak unto men to edification , and exhortation , and comfort ; and yet not have the spirit of god , nor his power evidently demonstrable , as is asserted ? answ . i answer , no : for the natural man perceiveth not the things of god , neither [ can ] he know them , saith the apostle , because they are spiritually discerned . and therefore he neither can know them , nor speak of them feelingly , and apprehensively : but only theoretically ; according to the largeness and capacity of his memory : as he hath learned , and is grounded in the principles of religion , and of faith , and doctrine ; as it were in a catachetical child-like manner ; who can keep to the words , but know not the sence ; and doe by art of memory , speak in the same words , and phrases , and manner , and form of doctrine with others . but as for feeling apprehension , and spiritual understanding , and knowledge [ indeed , ] of what they speak ; they are utterly uncapable , whiles they want faith . and this is easie to discern , by their coldness on the one hand , or their zeal on the other , in delivery thereof : and by their emphatical , or loose and light expressions , and arguments , and motives , and meanes &c. it is easie to discern , whether a man speak in spirit , that is to say , whether it come from the heart , and affection ; or but from the brain only . neither is it easie to counterfeit hearty affection , but it may easily be discern'd , that it is but forc'd . a very ideot may , by strength of memory , speak the bare words of a sermon , and rabble them over ; but he cannot keep to the distinct sense of every period , according to the proper intended emphasis , or meaning thereof ; but may by improper periods and interceptions , make the sence seem quite contrary to what it is indeed : but a man that understands it , and is apprehensively affected , according to it , can expresse it suitable to the true intent and meaning thereof . even just so it is , betwixt men that are spiritual , through faith in god ; and such as are carnal in all their expressions , concerning spiritual things . obj. but though it be difficult , and hard to counterfeit , yet it may be done ; so as few , or none , can discern , but they are as spiritual and as sound as others . qu. what notes therefore is there to prove , for certain , and that will evidence , and demonstrate indeed , that it is the spirit of god , that speaks in such , miracles excepted ? ans . there is many notes , by which men may be known , to speak in the spirit , and by the spirit of god. but some are more certain and infallible then others . i shall therefore instance , in some of the most certain : and those that on purpose are given out , by the spirit of god , as evident demonstrations , of the same spirit , and of power , &c. 1. and first , that note given out by the lord jesus christ himself , is an evident demonstration , that men are sent of god , and come not of themselves ; to wit , seeking his glory , ( if that do appeare ) for saith christ , he that commeth of himself , seeketh his owne glory ; but he that seeketh his glory that sent him , the same is true , and no unrighteousnesse is in him , joh. 7. 18. their zeal therefore for the glory of god , and self-denial , is a manifestation of the spirit of god. 2. that , joh. 10. 10. the thief commeth not , but for to steale , and to kill , and to destroy . but the good shepherd 〈◊〉 that they might have life , and have it more abundantly , to wit , spiritual life ; so that a desire will appear in the good shepherds ; that the sheep of christ might have a spiritual life , through faith , and that they might be edified and built up further in the same faith , even from strength to strength . and rather then saile of this their ends , they will not stick to lay down , even their lives for the good of their sheep , as vers . 11. but will continue to build them up further in faith , and love , which are in christ jesus : as vers . 28. 3. the wisdom which is from above , is first , pure ; not dark , and confused , darkning the councell with words without knowledge , but pure words , psalm . 12. 6. 2. it is peaceable ; not wrangling , and froward , angry , and contentious . 3. it is gentle and meeke ; not sowre , and proud , and harsh , and furious . 4. it is easie to be intreated ; not self-willed , and obstinate , obdurate and implacable , but ingenious , and tractable . 5. it is full of mercy , and good fruits , both in word and deed : and not cruel , and unmerciful , pittiless , and careless of doing good ; neither to the just , nor unjust . look jam. 17. 18. 4. it is the property of the holy ghost , when he cometh , or by whomsoever he speaketh , to convince the world of sin , of righteousness , and of judgement , joh. 16. 8. 5. and to lighten things that are hid in darknesse : and make the councels of the hearts manifest ; as 1 cor. 4. 5. and chap. 14. 24 , 25. the first , by a clear unfolding , and interpreting of sacred scriptures , that are dark , unto others , and not formerly opened : and this of all others , is the most manifest evidence of the spirit of god. and secondly , a speaking to the heart , and to the souls and consciences of men ; discovring their very thoughts , and councels : and approving themselves , to every mans conscience in the sight of god. 6. their comming to the light that their deeds might be made manifest , that they are wrought in god , is a cleare evidence , that they do truth , as john. 3. 21. their end appearing to be such , that they meane no falshood . 7. their shining forth as lights in the world ; and holding forth the word of life , phil. 2. 15. 16. yea , even the faithful word , that cannot be reproved : and making it manifest ; as they ought to do : for therefore they are called , the light of the world : marth . 5. 14. for all things that are reproved , are made manifest by the light : for whatsoever doth make manifest , is light , ephes . 5. 13 , 14. but the chief of all these particulars , is a cleare understanding , and knowledge of god , and of the sacred scriptures , and of the secrets and miseries of the kingdom of god ; for without all controversie , great is the mystery of godlinesse , as the apostle saith , coloss . 1. 26. 27 , 28. rom. 16. 25. ephes . 3. 9. 2 tim. 1. 10. tit. 1. 2. 1. pet. 1. 20. reas . for to them that are without , and unbeleeving , all things ( saith christ ) are done in parables , luke 8. 10. and mar. 4. 33 , 34. matth. 13. 11 , 12 , to 18. how much more then are the secret mysteries of god , and of christ , and of our spirituall union , and communion with him ( which is onely spiritual , through faith and love ) parables and misteries unto all such , who have no knowledge of god at all ; but only as they have heard of him , by the hearing of the eare ; or barely theorettical , without an eye of faith. consiq . therefore it follows ; that he that speaketh understandingly , and apprehensively of these secret mysteries ; doth evidently demonstrate , that he speaketh by the spirit , through the power and grace of the spirit of god ; who onely revealeth , and giveth understanding of the things of god ; as hath been said : so that it is manifest , that it is not they that speak , but the spirit of their father that speaketh in them . and by how much more they shall lighten things , that are hid in darkness ; and make the councels of the hearts manifest , as 1 cor. 4. 5. by the cleare unfolding , or interpretation of sacred scripture , and of the secrets thereof ; especially such as are dark and mystical , and hid from others ; or that have not formerly been explained , and opened ; or not convincingly , as a cleer result , producing an infallible assent . by so much the more evident , and demonstrable it is ; that it is not they that speak ; but the spirit of their father that speaketh in them , matth. 10. 19. 20. yea , that they are sent to speak , or to declare those things , being thrust forth , even by the spirit of christ who dwelleth in them ; and being lord of the harvest thrusteth forth labourers into his hanvest . for how is it is possible , that things that are hid from the wise and learned , should be revealed even unto babes , and to the foolish , &c. ( in respect with this world , ) if they were not inspired , and revealed unto them by the spirit of god , seeing they have not learned them by humane documents , but from god onely . object . but it will be objected , that it were immodesty , yea presumption , and a tok●n of spiritual pride in men , if they should so much as acknowledg , much less affirm , that they are taught of god , and that immediatly , by the inspiration of his blessed spirit ; and that it is not they that speak , but the spirit of their father that speaketh in them : but especially for unlearned men , that are but as babes , compared with the wise and learned , it were a shameful thing in them to do it , above all compare . answ . i answer , if they understand and know such things as have been said , even the secrets and mysteries of the kingdom of god , which they have not learned , not bin taught of men . to whom then should they ascribe the glory ? ought they to ascribe it to their own wisdom ? dare the learned ascribe their spiritual understanding , and knowledge of god , and of the things of god , either to their own wisdom , or their learnedness in the tongues , which a carnal man may attain unto , that can know nothing of the things of god , as hath been said ? were this to give god the glory , and to do it as of the ability that god administreth , that in all things god might be glorified ? were this to speak as the oracle of god , and in his name ? 1 pet. 4. 11. might not such justly expect the judgment of herod , to be struck with an angel of the lord , and to be eaten up of worms , because they give not the glory unto god of what they do or speak , in his sacred name , that is good , or excellent , and true &c. and it is doubtful , at least , that such who utterly exclude all that are not learned in the tongues , i mean , from speaking unto men to edification , and exhortation , and comfort , or from any ministration in the name of god in publique , especially that they thereby intimate , that their abilities for spiritual ministration are onely attained through learnedness in the tongues ; for how else durst they be so bold , as to limit the holy one of israel , that he shall not speak but by the learned onely ? object . but it will be objected , that speaking unto men to edification , and exhortation , and comfort , is not properly to prophecy ; for prophecying is properly foreshewing of things to come , though such who prophecy , do ordinarily also speak unto men to edification , &c. as well as prophecy of things to come . ans . 1. i answer , first , that they that edifie the church , build them up in faith ; and faith is of things invisible , and chiefly of things to come ; for faith is the ground of things hoped for , and the evidence of things not seen , heb. 11. 1. and therfore edifying , or building men up further in the true faith , and giving them better evidences and grounds of things hoped for from sacred testimonies , is , of all other , the chiefest prophecying , and most useful , powerful , and comfortable , for giving life to the souls of men , both in this life , and in the life to come , spiritual life i mean , even joy and comfort unspeakable and full of glory , see joh. 10. 10. 28. and 1 joh. 5. 11 , 12 , 13. yea , for perfecting of the saints , as eph. 4. 11. to 16. 2. and as for the other , as of foreshewing new things to come , as agabus prophecyed of the dearth and famine over all the world . though it be a part of prophecying not so ordinarily attainable , and more difficult in these days , yet it is not so needful nor useful as the other : and though it be a more certain and evident demonstration of the sacred spirit inspired into such , when the thing is accomplished and come to pass ; yet that part of prophecying which the apostle commends as the chief of all , to wit , speaking unto men to edification , &c. is both far more profitable , and a clearer evidence ( for the time present ) of the spirit of god , then the other is . and therefore i say , first , it is the most present evidence , and most immediate demonstration of the spirit , and of power , because foreshewing of things to come is no present and immediate evidence of it self , till the things be come to pass that are in truth foreshewed ; though it is true , that foreshewing of things to come , is the very complement and perfection of prophecying , and the most visible demonstration of the spirit of god , as deut. 18. 22. and joh. 16. 13. when the things are accomplished . 2. but , secondly , yet this prophecying intended by the apostle , is the most useful , and the most profitable of all other gifts , for the edifying of the church : and therefore saith the apostle , follow after charity , and desire spiritual gifts , but chiefly that ye may prophecy . 1 cor 14. 1. and the reason is rendered vers . 3. because he that prophecyeth , speaketh unto men to edification , and exhortation , and comfort : which is the chief end of all gifts ▪ for all that are zealous of spiritual gifts , should seek that they might excel to the edifying of the church , as vers . 12. although the gift of tongues , and so also foreshewing of things to come , is a more evident demonstration to convince them that beleeve not , as vers . 22. yet look the end of all gifts , as 1 cor. 14. 12. ephes . 4. 12. 1 pet. 4. 10 , 11. rom. 12. 6 , 7 , 8. for [ that ] should be our end . but prophecying , saith the apostle , serveth not for them that beleeve not , but for them that beleeve , vers . 22. and therefore is of greater and more profitable use for the edifying of the church . but wherefore , or wherein is it more useful ? the apostle answers , and brings it in as a reason , to wit , for he that prophecyeth , speaketh unto men to edification , exhortation , and comfort . consequ . and therefore it follows , that speaking unto men to edification , and exhortation , and comfort , is of all other gifts the most useful , and most to be desired and sought after , and to be most esteemed , and accounted of by the church of god : and so are all such who have that gift , and do not hide it in a napkin , but use it accordingly for the same end for which it is given , whiles they keep unto sound doctrine that cannot be reproved ; and speak but according to the law and testimony , and seek but onely and chiefly hi glory that sent them ; and that they might excel to the edifying of the church , and to convince the world of sin , of righteousness , and of judgment : and if they contend earnestly , if it be but for the faith that was once delivered to the saints ; or do but stand and fast to the christian liberty where with christ hath made us free , and that they might not be entangled with yokes of bondage , not be as men pleasers or servants of men , after they are bought with a price , provided they preach nor seek any liberty at all to do any evil , either in word or deed ; nor to be contentious and disobedient to the truth of god ; i say of such , they are sent of god : and whosoever resuseth , resisteth , disparageth , disgraceth , or despiseth such , doth even the same to him that sent them : and such , of all others , ought to be hon●red , even with double honor , that both rule well , and also labor in the word and doctrine by speaking unto men to edification , and exhortation , and comfort , as hath been said . and therefore all that are in authority ought to give liberty to all them whose spirit god hath raised to build up the churches in their most holy faith , lest wrath be upon them from the lord , as ezra 1. 5 , 6. and chap. 7. 13 , 16 , 13. and chap. 8. 22 , 23. and psa . 2. it is therefore a matter of dangerous consequence , either to act , or so much as seem to act , or comply with such , who doc exclude all from any spiritual ministration , in the name of god , and of the lord jesus christ , yea even in publique , ( i mean ) that are not learned in the tongues ; for they exclude , it may be , such as peter and john and all the church which was at jerusalem , who were all scattered abroad , and went every where preathing the word , see acts 8. 1 , 4. psa . 2. throughout . and the apostle speaking to the hebrews , tells them , that when for the time they ought to have been [ teachers , ] yet they had need to learn , &c. heb. 5. 12. 1 reas . for what is it else , but to limit the holy one of israel , that he shall not speak , but by the learned onely , either in private or publique ? who hath told us plainly , that he hideth things from the wise and learned , that he revealeth unto babes , luk. 10. 2. reas . and what is it else , but clearly to oppose the apostles rules , given out for direction in such cases , to wit , 1. as every man hath received the gift , so let him administer the same , as good disposers of the manifold grace of god. and 2. let every man administer according to the measure or proportion of his faith. 3. and how dangerous is it to advise , much less to compel any man to hide his talent in a napkin , and not to suffer him to occupy with it for his masters advantage , least it be taken from him ? yea , though it be that [ man ] that hath but one poor talent , who doubtless ought to put it forth in his place and calling , as well as those that have five or more , see heb. 10 , 22 , to 26 , &c. heb. 5. 12 , to 15. &c. 4. and how shall those things be made known to the church that are on purpose hid from the wise and learned , and onely revealed unto babes , &c. if we cannot be content to learn them at babes , as good old eli both did , and was glad to do , at the child samuel ? and hath not god on purpose done it ; and chosen the base and foolish things of this world , to confound the wise and the mighty , &c. as 1 cor. 1. 2 , 27 , 28. 29. and chap. 2. 11 , 12 , 13 , 14 on purpose i say . yea , that no flesh should rejoyce in his presence , but that he that glorieth , might glory in the lord. was not the word of the lord , revealed unto the childe samuel , rather then to good old eli : and did not eldad and midad prophesie in the camp , as well as the rest , and as lawfully too ; the spirit of the lord coming upon them : did moses forbid them till he had blessed them ; or till their callings of god should be evidenced by miracles ; as moses was , and as some do expect ; or they will not heare an unlearned man ; see john 11. 9 , 10 , 11. john did no miracle , though all men held john as a prophet . or shall we charge them with immodestie , for offering to preach , without ordination ? was no prophet accounted a prophet , but that wrought miracles , or was ordained by men : and learned in the tongues ? look joh. 10. 41. was not amos an herdman , and a gatherer of sacamore fruit ; when the lord took him , and sent him to prophesie ? and do not his words good , to them that walk uprightly , by whomsoever he sendeth them ? is it not lawful for the lord jesus christ , to thrust forth labourers into his harvest ; without licence from the learned in the tongues ? or doe not they that refuse , whomsoever he sendeth , refuse him ? or is it lawful to forbid any , whom he sendeth ; to preach unto men , that they might be saved ? like the wicked jewes , the salvation of souls being their chief end , as the drift of their doctrine will easily shew . is it not lawfull , for them that know the terror of the lord , to perswade men ? and should not every man administer according to the measure of his faith ; and be as good stewards of the manifold grace of god ; as hath been said , without licence , from the learned in the tongues ? and must they but only be suffered , to administer according to the measure , and degrees of their learnedness , and knowledge in the tongues meerely ? have none the manifestation of the spirit , but the learned in the tongues ? or dare we cross the apostle , and say , that the manifestation of the spirit , is not given to every man , to profit withal ? or that the chief grace and gift of the spirit , and that which is most profitable , and usefull to the church for edification ; and therefore most chiefly to be desired , is [ not ] that men might prophesie ? or what is this prophesying , that is so much to be desired , above all other gifts ; yea , above the gift of tongues ? is it not speaking unto men to edification , and exhortation , and comfort ? 1 cor. 14. 1 , 3. is is not preferred before the gift of tongues ? how much more then is it to be prefer'd before [ learnedness ] in the tongues ; which is onely taught by humane document ; and is not given as a manifestation of the spirit : but is that which a carnal man , that knoweth nothing , neither can know any thing , concerning spiritual things , may attain unto , 1 cor. 2. 14. therefore learnedness in the tongues , being no manifestation of the spirit at all ; is therefore no signe , that men are called of god , and sent to preach . but he that hath prophesie , let him prophesie according to the proportion of faith . but who is this [ he ] that hath prophesie , in the apostles sence in this place ? but he that speaketh unto men ; to edification , and exhortation , and comfort . and yet further by way of directory , he giveth forth a most exact rule , to wit : quest . but how , and what order must be used ? answ . let the prophets speak , two or three , and let the rest judge : and if any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by , let the first hold his peace . quest . but why so ? answ . for ye may all speake one by one , that all may learn , and all may be comforted , vers . 29 , 30 , 31. quest . but where , and when , and in what company must this be , that the prophets may all speak one by one ? answ . when the whole church of the corinthians was come together , as vers . 23 , 24 , 25 , 26 , 27. and therefore also , when any whole church , rightly constituted ; as the corinthians was , are come together , they may do the like , quest . but were not this immodesty , in these dayes , when the whole church is come together in some place ; and every one hath a psalme , hath doctrine , hath a tongue , hath revelation , hath an interpretation ; that all these one by one , should be communicated for the good of the whole , as vers . 26 , 27 , 31 , 32. all that are prophets i meane , for so is the directory ? vers . 29. 24. answ . was this the practise of the churches in the primitive times , by the apostles direction ? might all that were zealous of spiritual gifts , seek that they might excell , to the edifying of the church ? as vers . 12. and must it therefore now , be accounted immodesty , because it is not the custome in our churches , before these times ? yea , must it be accounted immodesty , to use the same liberty in those churches ; which are of purpose so constituted ; that the gifts of al that are so qualified , may be most useful and profitable unto all : that all might learne , and all might be comforted , and all might be edified ; as vers . 30. 31. and might grow in grace , from faith to faith , and from strength to strength , till they come to be tall men and women , in jesus christ : as psal . 84. 7. yea , that holding the head , from which all the body by joynts and bands , having nourishment , ministred and knit together , might the more increase , with the increase of god ? as coloss . 2. 19. and chap. 3. 12 , 13. to 18. and why should any member of the mystical body of jesus christ , be therefore despised as uselesse , and unprofitable , because unlearned in the tongues ? hath not god himself , on purpose , so provided and tempered the body together , and given more honour to that part which lacked : that there might be no schisme in the body : but that the members might learn , to have the same care one of another : seeing the heat cannot say to the feet , i have no need of you : as chap. 12. 13. &c. to the end . proposing the usefulnesse , and propriety and necessity of every member of our natural bodies ; to be as patterns unto bodies spiritual : that all the members , in their several places , might be accounted of , incouraged , honoured , comforted , edified , and esteemed of , as they ought to be , necessary and useful for the good of the whole ; shewing that the most feeble members ought not to be despised , but , as much as in us lieth , honored and clothed with more abundant comeliness : and every one called forth , employed , desired , and deputed ( by such who can discern their proper gifts , or fitness and abilities , for the necessary use and good of the whole , or of any other parts or members of the body ) to such employments as they are fittest for : and this calling and deputation would take away all appearance or suspition of immodesty in any such members , to what ever employment they are called unto . but while it is otherwise , and that the very constitution of our presbyterian churches require , that none be admitted , but that is so and so learned ( and that enters in by the learned's door ) it were immodesty to observe the apostles rules in such presbyterian churches . and it is no marvel if such who do it ( yea though in other churches ) be accounted silly fellows , and tubpreachers by the rude people , who it may be account them , as they did paul and others , no better then mad , as vers . 23. for they are so accounted , and spoken of too , and that by our grave divines , so reverendly they esteem of the gifts of god , and of the graces of his spirit , which are the more perspicuous , by how much more they are unlearned in the tongues . and therefore it is no marvel if it be so unto them all , as is spoken in these scriptures , isa . 29. from the 9 , to the end , micab 3. 5 , 6 , 7 , 8. hosea 8. 12. let them look to it that despise prophecying , that resist and spirit ; yea , that like jannes and jambres resist the truth , and that despise but the least of those little ones that beleeve in christ ; for they do despise , and resist him and his sacred truth . and it is to be feared , that many are guilty even of speaking [ words ] against the holy ghost ; a dangerous sin ( as it needs must be ) that shall never be forgiven either in this life , or in the life to come , as mat. 12 , 30 , 31 , 32. it is no marvel , if such ministers , yea though the chiefest of all on the face of the earth , have no manifest vision , as once it was in the days of eli , when they caused the people to despise the offering of the lord ; even so i mean , they cause the people to despise such service , and offerings , and sacrifice , as god now requires , as rom , 12. 1● . rev. 1. 6. 1 pet. 2. 7 , 8 , 9 , 10. for they that despise these things , despise not men , but god. it is no marvel , if they must be content either to learn it at babes , or to be without , and dye without knowledg , as 1 sam. 3. 1 , 17 , 18. hos . 4 5 , 6. object . but it will be objected , that the like ways for edifying of the church in these days , that were practised in the apostles times , are not suitable now , because that those extraordinary gifts are ceased . ans . 1. i answer , that the chief and most profitable of all those gifts , for edifying of the church , is still on foot , to wit , prophecying , speaking unto men to edification , and exhortation , and comfort , as hath been said , 1 cor. 14 , 1 , 2 , 3. secondly , i answer , that the same spirit worketh also now , in them that beleeve , and is as full of power , and as willing also to edifie the church ; for it is not changeable : and what know we , but some now adays are full of matter ? the spirit within them constraining them to speak , job 32 , 18 , to 22. so it was with elihu , who had not another , but even the self-same spirit ; who divideth to every man severally as he will : and so it was with david , and paul , and jeremiah , and others , as a fire within them . but it is to be feared , as least , if not a thing obvious and manifest , that there is some , even now adays , as in the days of old , that shut the doors of the kingdom of god , and neither enter in themselves , nor suffer them that would , as christ himself told them . yea , light is wanting , and vision faileth them , and they walk in darkness , and yet despise the help of any new lights , though many old lights ( that are publique and clear , and manifest unto others , and that of old likewise , ) would be new lights unto them , if they could discover them , 1 joh. 2. 10 , 11. but they are in darkness , and walk in darkness , and know not whither they go ; nor what they speak , nor whereof they affirm , but even speak evil of the things they know not , 2 pet. 2. 12. and yet , for all that , would be accounted , and expect to be followed , and obeyed of all , as if they were omniscient , like god himself , and could not possibly err , vers . 10. but all have not the knowledg of god ; this may be spoken to all our shame : else they would know , that he that thinketh he knoweth any thing , knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know . object . but there is ordinarily scriptural examples alledged against this which hath been said , concerning preaching of unlearned men that are not learned in the tongues , nor graduates in the schools , to deter men from presumption in such respects , to wit , the examples of vzza , and vzziah , and of korah and his company . but they are mis-applyed for the most part , as i shall make it manifest from sacred scripture . 1. for first , whereas they are applyed against all unlearned men that take upon them the priests office ; they apply them also against peter and john , as acts 4. 13. & 8 , 1 , 4. 2. and secondly , it is manifest in scripture , that in some sence , all the elect are truly and properly called priests , and both do , and ought to offer sacrifice , and to take upon them so far forth , even a priest-like office . reas . for the apostle peter , writing to the strangers , scattered through pontus , galatia , cappadocia , asia , and bithynia , that were elect , &c. 1 pet. 1. 1 , 2. calleth them a chosen generation , a royal priesthood , &c. chap. 2. 9. and a holy priesthood , vers . 5. and that also to offer up spiritual sacrifice , acceptable to god by jesus christ . and that they might shew forth the praises of him who hath called them out of darkness into his marvellous light . and rev. 1. 6. it is said of christ , that he hath made us kings and priests unto god and his father . i hope therefore , that none will deny but all the elect may offer these sacrifices , to wit , these spiritual sacrifices of prayers , praises , and virtuous living , to shew forth the virtues , and praises of him that hath called us , &c. and that also , without danger of being struck with leprosie , or death , or being swallowed up of the earth , like korah and his company , or being destroyed with fire , or any such judgment , if they do it in sincerity , and offer not strange fire , like nadab and abihu ; and if they charge not others with taking too much upon them , that are called of god and precious , &c. like korab and his company . object . but it will be objected , but what , is there no difference then , but all that are elect may take upon them to preach ? i answer , yes , there is diversities of gifts , and diversities of operations , &c. and there is degrees and measures given out of the same spirit : it is onely true of the lord jesus christ , that to him was not given the spirit by measure : and as all members of the body are not fit for , neither have the same office ; so it is also in the body spiritual , that one and the self-same spirit giveth out to every one severally and variously as it pleaseth him : there is and ought to be feet and hands , as well as eyes and mouth , which are most properly placed in the head . and though it be true . that if any man have not the spirit of christ , the same is none of his . yet it therefore follows not , that all that are his have the manifestations of the spirit . it is one thing to have the spirit , and another thing to have the manifestations of the spirit . but where ever the manifestation of the spirit is given to any man , it is given ( saith the apostle ) to prosit withal , in their several places and degrees , according to the measure , or nature , or property of their gifts , and calling ; and qualifications : for , to one is given by the spirit , the word of wisdom ; to another the word of knowledg , by the same spirit : and to another faith , by the same spirit : to another the gifts of healing , by the same spirit : to another the working of miracles , to another prophecy , to another discerning of spirits to another divers kindes of tongues , to another the interpretation of tongues . as 1 cor. 12. 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12 , &c. i shall therefore compare such , who ( in any of these particulars mentioned by the apostle ) have the manifestation of the spirit , to the sons of aaron ; to whom belonged the priesthood in a peculiar manner , above the rest of the sons of levi : for such , who have ( in any of these particulars ) the manifestations of the spirit , they have , as it were , a visible unction from the holy one , 1 joh . 2. 20 , 27 according as aaron was anointed , and his sons also with him , and sprinkled with holy oyl , levit. 8. 30 , 31. and so were consecrated , and appointed to their charge at the lords appointment , as vers . 33 , 34 , &c. and as aaron was above his sons , and wore the brest-plate , and other ornaments that were peculiar unto him , as vers . 7 , 8 , 9. and to him onely as the chief priest ; so the ministers of the word are chief , and ought to be so accounted and esteemed in the church ; and all other officers , as elders and deacons , who are resembleable to the sons of aaron , ( if such as they ought , ) ought to be chosen and consecrated likewise , as well as the ministers : and they should be known approved , as men full of the holy ghost , and wisdom , and of honest report likewise , or else they are not suitable to be joyned with the ministers , nor consecrated by them , unto any office in the church of god , as appeares , act. 6. 3. but all that are such , having the manifestation of the spirit , both lawfully may , and ought to desire the office of bishop , as a worthy work ; or any such office , or liberty in the church : whereby they might be useful or profitable to the same any kind of way . for as the manifestation of the spirit is given to every man to profit withall ; so , to profit the church ought likewise to be their end , and the desire , and endeavour of all that have such gifts : and they may and ought , even to seek occasions , that they might doe good , and desire of god that they might be sent : as the good prophet isaia , when his lips had been touched with a coal from the altar , and that his iniquity was taken away , and his sin purged : he readily answered the lord , even before he had his message ; here am i , send me , isai . 6. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9. and they that are zealous of spiritual gifts , ought to seek , that they might excel , to the edifying of the church . and such , whose end is only the edifying of the church , ought not to be restrained , but rather put on and encouraged , and called forth ( by such who can , and do discerne their proper gifts and abilities for the same ) to such employments and ministrations , as they are fittest for ; and might be most useful in : for the good of all , or any part thereof . 1. i say therefore , we may justly compare all such who have the manifestations of the spirit , to aaron , and his sons ; and they are all fitted and qualified on purpose for spiritual ministration , or profit to the church in one kinde or other , as their gifts and abilities are fittest for ; and ought to be called and consecrated thereunto , and suffered to administer , as occasion serves , and as need requires . he that hath prophesie , ought to prophesie according to the proportion of faith ; or ministry , should wait on his ministry ; or he that teacheth , on teaching ; or he that exhorteth , on exhortation ; he that giveth , should do it with simplicity ; he that ruleth , with diligence ; and he that sheweth mercy , with cheerfulnesse , rom. 12. 6 , 7 , 8. one way or other , such who have the gifts , though differing one from another , ought to use them , for the edifying , and good , and benefit of the church : and ought not to hide their talents in napkins ; but to occupy with them for their masters profit . and he whomsoever , that despiseth these things , despiseth not man but god , who hath given unto some , that are unlearned in the tongues , even his holy spirit , 1 thess . 4. 8. 2. and secondly , we may justly compare all the rest of beleevers ( that as yet , for the present , have no such gifts , or manifestations of the spirit ) to all the rest of the tribe of levie , who thought they did not beare the iniquity of the sanctuary , and the iniquity of their priesthood , nor minister before the tabernacle of witness , nor might not come nigh the vessels of the sanctuary , and the altar , lest they should die : yet aaron was appointed to bring them with him , that they might be joyned unto him , and minister unto him ; and keep his charge , and the charge of all the tabernacle of the congregation , for all the service of the tabernacle . whereas a stranger might not come neer unto them . but aaron and his sons must keep the charge of the sanctuarie , and the charge of the altar , that there might be no wrath any more upon the children of israel : as there had formerly been occasioned by the rebellion of corah , and in part of all the congregation , numb . 18. 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , and chap. 16. 45. for as the lord told aaron , that behold he had taken their brethren , the levites , from among the children of israel ; to them they were given as a gift for the lord , to doe the service of the congregation . but he , and his sons with him , should keep the priests office , for every thing of the altar , and within the vaile ; and that they should serve ; for he had given their priests office unto them , as a service , or gift ; and the stranger that came nigh should be put to death : as chap. 18. 6 , 7. even so we may justly say , behold , the lord hath taken all true beleevers , from amongst their neighbours , and give them as a gift of the lord , to be joyned with the ministers , and other officers in the church of god , to do the services of the congregation , and to keep all the charge of the church , in all outward respects , as for receiving in or shutting out from the publike assembly , joyntly with them . but the ministers , and officers are to keep the charge of all within the vaile ; as of the word , and sacraments , which they are to administer , in the name of god , and of the lord jesus christ ; and to take care , that none be admitted , but such who are outwardly , or at least , professedly clean ; having their hearts purified through faith , and repentance , &c. though yet , this always provided , that as the levites , levit. 8. 14 , 15 , 16 , 18 , 19. thought they all were given as a gift unto aaron , and his sons , to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation : ( yet ) they were not admitted , to administer and wait on the service of the tabernacle of the congregation , but from 25 years old , and upwards ; and from the age of 50 years they should cease waiting on the service thereof , and should serve no more , but should minister with their brethren in the tabernacle of the congregation , to keep the charge , as numb . 8. 24 , 25 , 26. even so also , though all beleevers are given as a gift to the ministers , and officers of the church , to be joyned with them , in opening , and shutting ; in binding and loosing ; in all such respects as concern the whole church , for the good of all , as when all must receive , or all reject ; all approve , or dis-allow ; all elect , or eject , &c. because that all are accessary , or joyntly ingaged in such generall business , as members of the body , 1 cor. 3. 16 , 17. yet they are not admittable , in this respect , neither , till they come to ripeness , and maturity of judgement in christianity ; and be established in the faith , and in the trade and practise of christianity , in all duties belonging thereunto : for there is a childhood and minority , as well in grace , as nature , 1 cor. 3. 1 , 2. and therefore saith the apostle , receive the weak , but not unto doubtful [ disputations : ] rom. 14. even so say i , the weake ought to be received , but not to intermeddle in doubtful [ elections ; ] or ejections , &c. in which they have no skill , nor judgement , and experience in . for so the wisdom of god accounted fit , to appoint the levites , in such like service , and respects , that belonged to their charge : lest by any means , their service and office should be despised , through male-administration , or childish ignorance or defection , and therefore they must not administer , till they came to the age of 25. years , &c. and therefore to conclude , an abrevate , from all these comparisons ; it is thus much in effect . abrev. to wit , all the elect , that are built upon christ by a lively faith , are lively stones , built up a spiritual house , yea , an holy priesthood , to offer up spiritual sacrifice , acceptable to god by jesus christ , 1 pet. 2. 5. and chap. 1. 2. so that all beleevers are accounted as priests , even from their first ingrafting into christ by faith , ( in some respects ) as is before specified . but as there was priests of divers orders ; so also ought the true beleevers to be distinguished . i compare therefore the newly converted to the levites in their minority , till they came to years : and all the grown christians , that are approved and experienced in the trade and practise of christianity , to the levites when they came to years of discretion . and all the elders and officers elected by the church , or that are full of the holy ghost and of wisdom , i compare to the priests , the sons of aaron , yea , though they be of such as are not learned in tongues , if they have such gifts , and qualifications , as are manifestations of the spirit of god. and so the ministers of god , i compare to aaron , who in many things was above his sons , as hath been said . and who knoweth , but the lord jesus christ , upon whose shoulder the government lieth , will govern his church after these examples , seeing the apostle peter doth thus compare them , as resembling the priesthood , and not as resembling the jewish nation , both priests and people ? for that he doth not , see also , mal. 4. 4. and then the danger lieth not against men unlearned , that have the manifestation of the spirit , and of power , least they should perish in the gainsaying of korah , because they take upon them , being called by the church , to preach and administer in the name of god. but the danger lies against such who are sensual , having not the spirit , and yet will take upon them ministerial functions in the name of god , because they are learned in the tongues , and graduates in the schools , jude 11 , 18 , 19 , 20. see zech. 12 , 13. chap. these are strangers that may not come nigh , &c. as numb . 18. 4 , 22. but it will be objected , that if unlearned men be suffered to preach , they that are unlearned , and unstable , may wrest the scriptures to their own destruction , as 2 pet. 3. 16 , 17. and may lead others into errors and schisms , and cannot be hindered , nor supprest ; neither can it otherwise be avoyded ; but men that know not the originall , should ordinarily mis-understand dark places of scripture , and so like blinde guides lead men into the ditch . answ . i answer that it is true , that men that are both unle arned and unstable , do , and will wrest some places of scripture ; and it cannot be avoyded , but there will be false teachers , even amongst us in these days , as well as there was false prophets in the days of old , as 2 pet. 2. 1. and such also , it may be as shall privily bring in damnable heresies , even denying the lord that bought them , and shall bring upon themselves swift destruction : and there is no security given out in scripture , that none that is learned in the tongues should be of the number of these false teachers : for men that are learned in the tongues , may be unstable , and wrest the scriptures : and by how much the more they , that are unstable , are learned in the tongues , they are even so much the more dangerous , if they should be suffered . and therefore unstableness is a greater fault , and more dangerous then unlearnedness in the tongues : and men may he learned in the scriptures , or unlearned either , and yet learned in the tongues . men ought not therefore to be inhibited to preach , ( lest they should be unstable , and wrest the scriptures ) for then the learned , as well as the unlearned , should both be inhibited . but such , who ( being proved ) are found unstable , and that they do wrest the scriptures , no man will deny , but such may , and ought to be inhibited , when they are found out , and convicted of error , or of schism , &c. yea , though they be of the learned . but to inhibit men before , were to censure and condemn men before they be heard . and see ezek , 18. 20. the righteousness of the righteous ought to be upon him , as a badg of honor ; but the wickedness of the wicked should but be upon himself . but the best and surest way to prevent the sowing and spreading of errors , or schisms , is to give liberty , that any whomsoever , that preacheth in publique , may in publique also be reprehended ( be they learned or unlearned ) if they preach erroneously in any congregation ; that so the same auditory , that hears them preach any error , or schism , or false doctrine , may , by just reprehension from clear scripture-evidence , be satisfied to the contrary ; and have such evil seed purged out quickly , before it grow up , or be spread any further ; for so it ought to be : and those churches are not rightly constituted , where this liberty is either wanting , or not in use , when the truth of god is wronged , and wrested , and turned into a lye ; and when his sacred word is handled deceitfully , and mis-applyed , as it often is , even by the learned in the tongues , that are unstable &c. and yet no man allowed to reprehend them for it , nor convince them of it , at least not in publique : and how then shall the same auditory be purged from it , if their reprehension be not as publique , as the doctrine is preached ? for who knows that all the congregation shall every one of them be assembled again ? and the doctrine may be such , as may lead them to perdition and destruction , both of their souls and bodies . and this liberty being in use , will doubtless make both the learned and unlearned a great deal more careful , to keep unto sound doctrine that cannot be reproved . and they that plead so much against liberty of preaching of men unlearned in the tongues , for fear of the spreading of errors and schisms , and yet will not allow this publique liberty of reprehension ( as hath been said ) to prevent , and avoyd , and purge the same . i can hardly beleeve that the spreading of errors and schisms is the chief cause that makes them zealous therein , but some other by , or self-respects , which they will not own . for no man , that is zealous against such spreading gangrenes , but he will allow , and justifie , and approve all possibe means to avoyd or stay them , else he is not cordial in that respect : and what means possibly can be more awful , and more suitable , and even necessary , then publique reprehension of publique errors ? the apostle paul reprehended peter before them all , gal. 2. 14. and them that sin ( saith the apostle ) rebuke before all , that others also may fear , 1 tim. 5. 20. but it will be objected , that it were an immodest part for any man to implead his minister in the publique congregation ; and might disgrace , and disparage , and dishonor him for ever . ans . i answer , that it is far greater immodesty in such ministers to need to it , and to give just occasion by dealing immodestly with the truth of god , to the disgrace , and disparagement , and dishonor of god ; in respect of whom , and for maintenance of whose truth , we must not know either father or mother , son or daughter , minister or master , brother or friend ; but to undervalue , disgrace , dishonor , disparage , yea , and even hate them , in comparison thereof ; and rather then baulk the truth , that concerns the good of immortal souls , especially in case , when it may endanger the loss of souls , so precious is the redemption of souls , and their continuance for ever : and of so high esteem ought the glory of god to be valued of us . he that valueth himself , or his own honor , or grace and glory , yea , or his own life , better then the truth and the glory of god , deserveth no better , but shame and dishonor for his self-ish ends and pride , &c. and he that doth truth , and cometh to the light , that his deeds may be made manifest that they are wrought in god , he will be desirous to be tryed by the touchstone , even the truth it self ; and will love him better that lets him see his error ( in such a case ) then him that flattereth with his lips , or holdeth his tongue , and lets him run on in erroneous paths , either in life or doctrine . and it is a sign , that such men do [ evil ] that hate the light , and that will not abide the tryal by the touchstone , in as open and publique a place , as they have held forth doctrine , provided always that it be done with meekness , in a loving way , as it ought to be ; for so saith the apostle , let all your things be done in love . and that there be also a free acknowledgment , by them that do it , of their own weaknesses , and subjection of themselves to all or any error , and to be likewise tempted and drawn aside ; and that they onely stand , and are upheld by the grace of god , of his free accord ; and with a clear manifestation of such material and weighty causes , and considerations , moving them thereunto , as are of greater value and consequence , then the credit , and reputation , and honor due unto such a minister ; for it ought not to be done upon slight occasion , but matters of weight , and such as will over-ballance all the shame and disgrace that may possibly fall upon such a minister . and it is a signe , that men come of themselves , ( and are not sent of god ) if they seek their own glory : or if their own glory be so near and dear unto them , that they cannot be content to undervalue it , to the glory of god , or to his sacred truth ; if they cannot be content to let god be [ true ] and every man a lyar ; but will rather oppose the truth of god , then acknowledg themselves to have erred from the truth , jam. 5. 19 , 20. it is a shrewd sign , that there is in such men , a spice of that pride , that exalteth the pope , above all that is called god , or that is worshipped : who arrogateth power , and dominion to himself , as if he could not erre ; for all men must beleeve , what he asserteth ; and punctually obey his commands , and decrees , though never so untrue , or unjust &c. yea , though quite contrary to the word of god , and to the light of reason : or else they must be excommucate , out of their churches : oh horrible pride ! and yet a spice thereof , is doubtlesse to be found in all men by nature : and in the natures of many , that yet notwithstanding have the grace of god ; for they are partly flesh , and partly spirit ; and it is rare to finde out such a man , as can deny himself , and take up his crosse , and follow christ [ fully : ] that can endure the cross , and despise the shame ; for men can very hardly endure to be [ crost ; ] yea , though they cross and oppose , even the truth of god ; how much lesse then , would they endure the cross , and the shame , and spitting ? and they cannot endure to be despised , and dishonoured , when they doe despise , and dishonour god. how much less then , can they despise the shame , in respect of the honour and glory of god ? but it will be objected , that if this were suffered , any man ( that would ) might implead the minister , if he think he erre , even when he hath preached the truth of god. and so many raise controversies of disputation , when ever they please , to disturbe and trouble the congregations ; amongst which , there are some that are weake , that ought to be received , but not unto controversies of disputation . i answer , as before , that it ought not to be done , but in matters of weight , that may be clearly evinced from the word of god. and if any oppose , or contradict the truth , either through malice , or ignorance ; it may minister occasion to such a minister , to convince gain-sayers ; and then the shame , and dishonour , will light on them , and the truth of god be the more splendorous , in that respect ; and if it be done of malice , his malice that doth it will be discovered ; and if it be through ignorance , he may be convinced , and better informed ; and will have cause of thankfulness , both to god , and the minister , that hath converted him , and resolved his doubts . but if it were the custom , that judicious men might not ( onely in case of erronious doctrine , but of things dark and mysterious , that are not fully cleared in their ministration ) put them on by way of question ; or desire them to illustrate , or clear such a point ; or inlarge themselves in profitable points , and confirm them better ; it might be very profitable to the church of god : for the people will more regard and consider better , of such particular points , as have been the subject of such discourse , and are , as it were , vindicated , and concluded upon ( and so confirmed against all objections , or obscurities whatsoever , even in the publike congregation , and by the most judicious in reputation amongst them ) then of other particulars . and this also would be a meanes , to debar all such from usurping the ministry , that are not able for it : and to convince gainsayers , and stop their mouths ; and to maintain also , and vindicate the truth . yea , it would be a means to seclude all such , as are not men of self-denying spirits , such as the lord jesus requires ; that such should be ( if they would attaine to be his disciples ) especially , his ministers . 4. the independent principles are likewise stricter , in standing fast to such christian liberties ( in other respects ) wherewith jesus christ hath made us free ; then the ways and principles , or at least , the practises of presbyterians will suffer . 1. as first , concerning their independency , in respect of other churches whiles they do well , as rom. 13. 3 , 4. & 1 pet. 3. to 23. & chap. 4. 1 , 2. & 12 , &c. for as it is granted by [ all : ] that in case of necessitie , as when a church liveth where it cannot govern in a presbyterial way , in a classical , and synodical manner ; because there is no churches to combine with , within convenient bonds : or at least , none that are willing . they allow them power within themselves , both for constitution , and dissolution of such a church , as they see occasion , for the benefit of the same ; and the glory of god , and their souls health . and therefore seeing all power both for government , and discipline , is necessarily allowed them in such a case . though they are not against the consociation of true christian churches , for the mutuall advice , and edification , and help , and comfort of one another ; or in case of admonition , &c. yet they utterly deny , to submit themselves , as under the jurisdictive authority of any such churches , save only in case of advice or councel , or admonition ; or at most , as sister churches in every respect , and as they shall convince them from scripture grounds ; that their decrees , or results , are according to god , and to his laws and testimonies , concerning them , either in doctrine , or government . and therefore will not submit , to binde themselves to be ordered or governed , by the votes of such , in any respect , till they first know , what their votes are that they submit unto ; lest they should be enslaved to the wills of men , against their consciences ; which are , or ought to be onely bound by scriptural decrees , or loosed either : and therefore ought not to be submitted to the decrees of men , not infallibly guided , though never so numerous , or wise and learned ; who all may erre , and often do : and therefore ought not to challenge any binding authority , or power whatsoever , or loosing either , but onely in case , and so far forth as they can and doe , even convince the conscience , from scripture evidence , in the name of god , and of the lord jesus christ ; that their decrees are just , and ought to be obeyed , and submitted to : and it is lawfull as well for a church , as a particular man , to goe to the law and to the testimony , as they are injoyn'd . and to search the scriptures dayly , whether those things be so , that are decreed , or taught us ; or that are preached unto us , yea , though by an angel from heaven : and if we finde they teach us another gospel then what we have received , we must let them be accursed . and it is evident , that the apostles , and elders , and the whole church being assembled with one accord ; resolved of nothing , till it was cleared from scripture ; that all assented , and agreed to it , even the whole church , as acts 15. 22 , 25. and it is certaine , that either a particular man , or particualar church , having scriptural grounds , may say as [ they , ] it seemed good to the holy ghost , &c. for what the scripture decrees , the holy ghost decrees . and therefore all assemblies , congregational , presbyterial , classical , synodical , national , or oecumenical , should onely be as this in the acts , to consider of such matters , as vers . 6. and to resolve them from scripture ; that all being assured from scripture ground , may with one accord , passe sentence with them , being fully assured , that it seemeth good to the holy ghost , as well as unto them , what ever is resolved , or decreed , or done in his sacred name . else they are presumptuous and self-willed , and do usurp authority over the church of god ; if they take upon them to binde and loose , and do not make it manifest , as they ought to do , from scripture evidence ; that it seemeth good to the holy ghost , as well as them , coloss . 4. 4. and though it is true , that we ought to obey them that have the oversight of us , and that have the rule over us , and to follow their faith , as hebr. 13. 7 , 17. yet it must be in case , when we know them to be such , as watch for our souls , as they that must give account ; that they may do it with joy , and not with grief . and it must be upon consideration of the end of their conversation : that it is jesus christ yesterday , and to day , and the same for ever . for they that preach unto us the word of god , should not be changeable ; least they carry us about with divers and strange doctrines , as vers . 8. 9. which we must not be , to follow their faith ; nor in obedience unto them , that turne away their ears from the truth , and are turned unto fables , as 2 tim 4. 3 , 4. 1 tim. 6. 3. 4. 5. & 2 tim 3. 2 3 , 4. 2 thes . 3. 6. 7 , 8. and if any come unto us , and bring not the true doctrine , we must not receive him to house , neither bid him god speed , as 2 joh. 10. how much lesse , may such be received as ministers of god ; and maintan'd either by tythes , or other maintenance . and how unlawful is it ( therefore ) either for magistrates , or others , to force maintenance , of any such ; or to limit men by parochiall bounds ; that in case a parish , shall heap to themselves teachers after their owne hearts , having itching ears , that turn from the truth : yet men must be inforced , to maintain such teachers , and to heare them likewise ; and must not withdraw themselves , as the apostle injoynes us ; nor go elsewhere , unless we can remove our habitations also ; which cannot chuse but be sometimes inconvenient ; and to our utter overthrow in wordly respects . all which bondage , is a great infringement to our christian liberty , in them that do it , and ought not to be approved nor assented to , by any that desires to keep a good conscience voyd of offence , both to god and man. reas . for how many thousand parishes , both have been , and are , not onely here , but in other kingdoms , by this means , kept utterly destitute of any spiritual food , for the good of their souls : and that sometimes , even for a whole age together , during the parsons or vicars life , who once enstall'd , can never be removed , if he be conformable , to the government on foot , and can please the greater , or most of the parish ; yea , and though he be never so carnal ; if he have but learning , and an outward form of doctrine and profession , in respect of religion , like the generality of the congregation : though he utterly deny the power of godlinesse ; yet all his parishoners , ( though never so godly and conscientious ) must hold them contented , during such a mans life , for they must allow him his tythes , or maintenance ; and they must not obey the apostles direction , to wit , from such turn away . but they must keep to their own church , and be bound to submit to their own minister , unless they can remove out of such a parish . and so in all likelihood , famish the souls of their whole families ; if god be not mercifull , in stretching forth his immediate hand in an extraordinary unexpected way : [ for the ordinary way ] is by the foolishness of preaching , ( as so the world accounts i● ) to save them that beleeve . and therefore let men say what they will , but there is no other way , to keep such men out , for intruding themselves , and being intruded upon them ; but to let all that are godly , and consciencious , have free liberty , to approve , and receive , or admic , and in stall , whom they generally allow off ; or to dis-approve , reject , turn from , dis-install , or eject , whom they dissavow . for how else can they , in such respects , obey the apostles direction ; and keep a good conscience , void of offence both towards god and man , heb. 13. 8 , 9. 2 tim. 3. 4 , 5. 1 tim. 4. 3 , 4. 2 thess . 3. 6 , 7 , 8. 2 joh. 10. & joh. 10. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , to 16. let any man tell me but [ how ] and i shall silence for ever in that respect . how , i mean , they shall answer these scriptures as they ought to do . if it be promised that the presbyterial govenment will so provide , that none shall be admitted , and approved off , but such as are truly spiritual , and of the most able , and fit for the ministry , that can be found ; and then it need not to trouble the conscience of any man in that respect . i answer , that i cannot beleeve it , till i see it done , or by what means it should be effected ; whiles [ all ] have vote , and power in election , and may , either chuse whom they think good , or be without , all ( i meane ) that have taken the covenant , many of whom , have so little understanding in spiritual things , that they are not thought worthy to receive the sacrament . and how then can such discern , whether men be spiritural and able for the ministy ; or they be but carnal , and such as can know nothing of spiritual things , to wit , of the things of god. as a corinthians , 2. 14. the natural man perceiveth not the things of god , neither can he know them , because they are spiritually discern'd ; to wit , through an eye of faith . but the spiritual man , to wit , a man throughly spiritualized , through faith in god ; discerneth all things , yea , even the deep things of god object . it will be objected , that all that are godly , and truely conscientious , are not able to discern of the fitness of men , for spirituall imployment . and therefore it is more wisdom , to commit the apporveal of all spiritual men , to the wise and learned , and to the elderships , &c. answ . i answer , that he that entreth in by the door , ( which is christ himself , our archbishop , is the shepherd of the sheep ; ) as joh. 10. 2. 9. and to him the porter openeth , and the sheep hear his voice , and he calleth his own sheep by name , and leadeth them out : and when he putteth forth his own sheep , he goeth before them ; and the sheep follow him , for they know his voice . and a stranger will they not follow , but will fly from him ; for they know not the voice of strangers , as vers . 3. 4 , 5. this is the promise , and the plain assertion of christ himself ; that his sheep know his voice , by whomsoever he sendeth it ; for the porter , to wit his ( holy spirit ) openeth their hearts , as he did the heart of lydia , even to hear , and obey , and to follow , and doe ; to imbrace , and to receive , yea , to love , and honour ; even such , who bring them such glad tydings , of life , and peace , and of truth , &c. and therefore , though they be not able to discern , and discover , and judge who is fittest , and the most able ; for such , and such imployment ; yet they can discern , who are sent of god , and bring his message ; so far , at least , as not to follow a stranger : for the voyce of strangers , is strange unto them ; and such as they will not follow : so that the general approbation , of the sheep of christ ; such especially , who are known to be his , is the note of a shepherd that is called of god , and sent to preach ; or that is called to officiate in any place about spiritual things . and though they cannot discern who is fit for office ; yet if the wise , and learned , should appoint them a stranger , or an hireling , and that careth not for them ; or such whose voice they know not , or to whom the porter openeth not : they ought not to follow , but to fly from them , as from thieves and robbers : yea , as sheep from wolves , that would murder , and destroy , and devoure their souls : as vers . 5. 8. 10. 12 , 13. but if this be their duty , as doubtless it is ; if they once discern who are such or such : then it necessarly follows , that they ought not by authority to be otherwise impelled ; but that in such respects , ( as do so highly concern the good of their souls , and the souls of their housholds , and their posterities after them , till the world determine , ) they might have liberty of conscience , as they dare answer it , at the great tribunal ; to deale impartially in all such cases , of such concernment , to approve , or reject , as they think they ought . and as considering themselves , even now already in whatever they doe ; to be before god , and the lord jesus christ , and the elect angels : as 1 tim. 5. 21. and this is a liberty , wherewith jesus christ hath made us free ; to which it is our duty to stand fast . and to beware of such as shall come unto us , in sheeps cloathing , that yet inwardly are ravening wolves . and he hath promised , that we shall know them by their fruits , mat 12. 30 , to 35. and they that would spoil us of any such liberties , are in that respect , to be accounted no better then theeves and robbers : yea , spirituall theeves , that would spoile our soules . and such therefore we ought not to receive , nor to bid them god speed , where they teach such doctrine ; unless in hope that they do it ignorantly : and that we onely receive them , in hope to reduce them , from such dangerous error . if it be objected , that men will not allow any maintenance to such whom they may not have vote in election of ; unless it be compelled or forced from them , which is not warrantable , as hath been said , and proved by some . i answer briefly , that whatever others that are malignant , and enemies to the church of god , will do or refuse , give or with-hold in such a case , that doth not exempt thosewho are godly and conscientious form doing their duties , and from being impartial in such weighty business that concerns the good of their immortal souls ; in which cases all things should be done without partiality or respect of persons . and they ought rather so to joyn themselves , as to maintain a ministry upon their own charges , then to give their sufferage or vote for such to be installed in a place , as ought not to preach . and if it were so , that the truly religious would joyn themselves , and engage in covenant each to others , for this end , that all of them might speak even the same thing , without partiality or respect of persons . there would scarce any accept of a place , but that were either called or approved by them ; nor would they continue against their wills , nor act contrary to their general results from scripture grounds . but whiles they sit loose , and are partially engaged , and do not assemble themselves ( even their own selves ) for these and such like business that concerns them all ; how is it possible that they should know the mindes each of others , or the grounds or reasons upon which they act ? or how to resolve fully , so as all may assent , and be satisfied in conscience from sacred scripture , that so they ought to resolve in such and such cases . and therefore they ought thus to joyn and assemble themselves , and be engaged deeply each unto others , that things of this nature might be justly carried , without partiality or respect of persons , yea , at least in private , if authority will not suffer them to engage in publique ; if there be so many within convenient bounds , as may in any possibility do good this way . 5. they are stricter in maintaining the power , and kingdom , and supremacy of christ , then the presbyterian government ( as in now stands ) will allow or suffer . reas . for though they do allow , that the body of the church should be obedient and subject to the ministers and elders of the same , so far forth as they hold forth the word and voyce of christ , as joh. 10. 4. and do make it manifest ( as they ought to do ) from the law and testimony , that their ways and words , or judgments , and censures , or proceedings , are right , as in the way of the churches of new england , appers pag. 100. chap. 5. yet in case , when the officers of a church shall err , and commit an offence , or miscarry the business that concerns them all , or that in any respect concerns the glory of god. they make bold to over rule them , and to maintain the truth , and rescue the innocent , or condemn the guilty , and to elect , or eject , receive , or refuse ; yea , to remit or retain , as they finde cause and ground form scripture ; yea , though quite contradictory to the judgments , and decrees , and results of their elders ; and in case of obstinacy , even to proceed to censure and to cast them out , as unsavory salt , if their sin so deserve . and this democracy is necessarily assumed and exercised by the church , in choosing their officers , and joyntly with them in admitting members ; and in censuring , or acquitting , and remitting offenders : and that to preserve the monarchy of christ from antichristian usurpation , lest they should be in forced to let men at their pleasure bear rule over them , and become as men pleasers , and servants of men , as many have done ; and that without all remedy , or hope of remedy , whiles their officers live , as hath been said before , in the like case : and all , because that they had not power within themselves to censure and remove them ; but having their power to seek ( form other churches , or from without their own , ) could never finde it to remove them by , as in conscience they ought . but were forced to yeeld even blinde obedience , and to submit themselves to what ever decrees were imposed on them , whether right or wrong , truth or falshood , good or evil . and what else can be justly expected form the presbyterial government , if they require obedience to what ever they decree or determine by vote , in classis or synod , or congregational presbytery , when they make it not manifest as they ought to do ; from sacred scripture , that such decrees are just , and ought to be executed and obeyed , &c. by all or any whom they do concern , that are under the government , and of the kingdom of christ ? for what is this but to give them liberty for the absolute exercise of arbitary power , after men are chosen to such anoffice ? for what is it but arbitrary power ( in spiritual respect : ) that is not submitted to the word of god , to the lord jesus christ , and to his law and testimony , as well as such is accounted arbitrary power ( in civil respects ) that is not submitted to the laws of the land ? and this cannot chuse but at least sometimes engage or enforce us unto blinde obedience ( if we submit thereto , ) and that unto men , as if we were necessitated to account of them , as if they could not err . and therefore doubtless such ( whoever they are ) that either claim ( as due ) or expect such obedience , do extol themselves even above the apostles , and expect more obedience , and honor , and service , then they ever required , who were ( notwithstanding ) more infallibly guided . for they rather commend , then blamed the bereans , for searching of the scriptures , whether those things were so , that were preached by them . and what may this prove , but not onely the infringement of the churches liberties , but even the just rights and liberties of the subjects , yea , and the priviledg of parliament : for if the parliament were bound , as in duty to god , to establish and confirm what ever a synod , or an assembly of divines , should conclude , or decree amongst themselves , to be just and right in the sight of god , and that without evidence form sacred scripture , what a gross slavery might even their very consciences be subjected to ? for was not this the means of introduction of popery and all superstition that ever was establisht in the christian world ; to wit , obedience unto synods , as if they could not err ? and is it not as dangerous now , lest men should yet err , and mislead the parliament , and the whole kingdom , yea , and all the churches ? are we sure that they are more infallible , then in former ages ? doubtlesse , i say , they ought not to challenge , nor expect or plead for any such obedience , nor that they either do or can do any thing authoritatively indeed , but what they make good and manifest from scripture ; for then onely , and onely so far forth , they may authoritatively say , it seemed good unto the holy ghost and us ; as hath been said before : for even the apostles were but drawn together to consult and consider of those things , neither did they decree , till james stood up and resolved the matter from sacred scripture , by concluding such a result , as to which they all assented : it was not carryed by multiplicity and majority of votes , what should be decreed ; but by the best scripture evidence . neither are any such either fit or worthy to be members of an assembly , synod , or classis , or congregational presbytery , that can be content to let things pass upon slender debate , and without result from scripture grounds upon bare votes , it may be inconsiderately gathered , to be made as decrees , for the churches government , and that about matters in controversie , concerning faith and doctrine , or ways and manners , or any such like . considering that the eyes of the chief seers , in a whole kingdom or nation , yea in the whole universe , may be covered : and the sacred scriptures may be unto them all as a sealed book ; yea , they may account even the great things of gods own law as a strange thing ; as isai . 29. vers . 9. to the end . micah 3. 5 , 6. 7 , 8. hosea 8. 12. and yet may think it strange , that such men as they should either be , or be accounted blinde ; as those that said unto christ , are we blinde also ? and therefore it behoves the magistrates , and all in authority , to restrain and limit them in these respects that so highly concern even the life and death of their immortal souls , and of posterities after them , unto all ages : i say , to restrain and limit them to the law and testimony in what ever decrees they decree to establish : else they are guilty even of the blood of souls , which they lay open to be bought and sold at the will and pleasure of presumptuous men , that are self-willed , and lovers of their own selves , covetous , boasters , proud , &c , of which sort there is many in these last days . 6. they are stricter , and justly too , in keeping themselves within their own sphere , in that they require not obedience from all the inhabitants within parochial , no nor local bonds ; to the decrees of synods , classis , and presbyteries , as jure divino ; for that can never be proved from scripture grounds , to be either duty or lawful , but onely so far forth as their decrees are just , and held forth also from scripture grounds , in the name of god , and the lord jesus christ : to be obeyed , or disobeyed ; not as they tender the displeasure of men , in what ever authority , place , or power , ecclesiasticall , or civil ; but as they [ tender ] the breach of the law of god , or their obedience unto him , or as they fear his wrath , or expect his love , and blessing , &c. neither do they resolve , to deal with all indefinitely , in a spiritual way ; as they are admonished to deal with brethren , matth. 18. to 21. by way of private reproof and admonition ; and after that , to tell it to the church ; before they be unto us as heathens , and publicans ; for many are so to us , even as heathens and publicans ; even in the judgement of charity , and certainty both : being yet without in the apostles sense , 1 cor. 5. 12. and what have we to do with them that are without ; to whom all things ( as yet ) are done in parables , what have we , therefore , to do to judge them , the apostle knew not , that we had any occasion , nor proper interest or power so to do , save only in general in the publike ministry . neither are we injoyned , ( for altogether ) not to company with such ; nor not to eate with such ; if they be but ( fornicators , or covetous , or extortioners , or idolaters of this world , ) as 1 cor. 5. 10 , 11. & chap. 10. 27. for we are not bound to rebuke scorners , and deale with them as brethren , in spiritual respects ; we are only bound to deale with breathren , such who are so called , and accounted of , through their visible profession of christianity : ( not of atheisme , and grosse prophanness ; ) such , who never yet thought themselves fit to receive the sacrament of the lords supper : for how are they within , or in fellowship with us , or in company together , who abhor and hate , and had rather almost be in company with devils , then with such , whose waies are a rebuke unto theirs . and how then shall we in any respect , withdraw from such , who never yet were in company with us , but against their wills ; 1 thes . 3. 6. and how is it proper , to judge , or censure ; or to remit , and pardon , ( as 2 cor. 2. 7 , 8. 1 cor. 5. 12 , 13. joh. 20. 23. ) such who are utterly uncapable of any proper impression , or sence , or dinte of a divine rod ; a spiritual censure , or admonition , or rebuke , &c. yea , or of being remitted , though they outwardly reform , till they inwardly repent , and be at peace with god , not only for open , but for all their sins , open , and secret ; unless men purposely intended to delude their souls : for though for trespass against man , he that is injur'd , upon repentance may forgive it ; as mat. 18. but sins against god , he only can pardon , who sees the heart , and whether they repent indeed . and men can only do it , declaratively and effectually , in his sacred name ; according to the appearance or visibility of their cordiall repentance ( in their apprehension ; ) not for one onely , but for for all their sins , jam. 2. 10 , 11. & 1 sam. 2. 25. and thus much briefly against the presbyterians , for the time present , though i have more particulars to have instanced in ; yet if in these particulars , a reconcilement were made , the rest would follow with more ease . but these things being true , as i am confident that any rational man ( that will but seriously consider of these particulars , with the grounds and reasons , that are here alledged , with an impartial eye ) will freely confess , that the independents are justly stricter , and ought so to be , in these particulars ; and that their grounds and reasons are sound and substantiall for so doing , and that the magistrate ought not to restrain or limit them , in the prosecution of these just , and lawful , and godly ends : but to tollerate , and protect them , and incourage them hereunto , by all possible means : yea , though in these respects , they be manifestly stricter then the presbyterial government , as it now stands , will permit and suffer . and now having done with the presbyterians , for the time present , in behalf of the independents : i shall turn my hand to the independents , in behalf of presbyterians ; for though i cannot charitably conceit them , in respect of their ends ; to wit , that they are not good ; yet , i have something against them , in respect of their ways , and dare not be partial in the things of god ; but must speak out , according to my apprehension , as well against them , as the presbyterians ; for it is dangerous to be partial in the law , or respect persons . job . 32. 22. 1. and first then , though it is not denyed , but that in case of necessity such a congregation so incorporated , ( being men of fidelity ; faithful men ) may ordain themselves pastors , elders , and deacons , as they stand in need , and exercise all spiritual jurisdictive power amongst themselves , as they see cause , for the glory of god , and the churches good . for in case , when no other pastors of other churches can conveniently be obtained to assist them therein , to whom it more fitly and properly appertains , being called by the church so to do ; it is confessed they may doe it themselves . reas . but in ordinary propriety , as the apostle saith , the lesse is blessed of the greater ; for he so concludes , hebr. 6. 7. that it is so without contradiction , proving that melchisedec was greater then abraham , because he blessed him , vers . 4. 7. argu. but ordination by imposition of hands , is an act of blessing ; and is effectual to confer a blessing in the name of god , if administred in faith , matth. 18. 19. though otherwise not , as jam. 1. 6 , 7 , 8. conseq . 1. and therefore by consequence , the more faithful that men are , and the more likely , such their blessing is to be effectual , and to be conferred indeed ; as many instances mght easily be produced . conseq . 2. and therefore it follows , that the most faithful that can be obtained , is the most fit for such an act ; because it is most likely , that such their blessing will be effectuall , the more and rather . reas . and therefore it was , that john the baptist did , according to modesty , object against christ , when he came to his baptisme , i have need ( saith he ) to be baptized of thee , and commest thou to me ? but our saviour answered , that he should let be now , because that thus it became them , to fulfil all righteousnesse . and the reason was , because in common reputation ( at that time ) iohn was greater then he : for all men held that iohn was a prophet : but christ as yet had not shewed forth his glory , in so eminent a manner , as to be so esteemed . object . but it is objected , that a [ church of beleevers ] or a company of the [ presbytery ] are , in comon reputation , greater then [ one , ] to wit , any [ one ] man whom they may ordain , and so in that respect , the lesse is blessed of the greater , as hebr. 6. 7. for two , ( saith solomon ) are better then one . and the promise is made unto two or three . mat. 18. therefore it follows , if two or three be preferred to one , that a whole church of faithful men are better then two or three , and greater in esteem , and their prayers , or blessings , are the more likely to be valide and effectual . and therefore it is not unfit in that respect , but proper and comely , and so much the more hopeful , that such their blessing , through faith in god , will be effectual , though they want the assistance of some more eminent men ( then such yet are ) whom they do ordain : the prayer of a righteous man availeth much , saith james , if it be fervent , jam. 5. 16. and how much more available may we expect the prayers of a whole church will be with god , as it was when peter was in prison ? act. 12. 5. ans . i answer briefly , that it is not unlawful , but may be done , and not improperly , in case of necessity , as hath been said . but , first , observe , that the addition of some more eminent men to be , as it were , the mouth and hands of such a whole church , doth not deminish , but encrease their number of faithful men , if such can be obtain'd to assist them therein , and so by their own argument so much greater blessings are likely to be conferred at their request . and it may he sometimes that the prayers of some one man being more earnest then the rest , may obtain the blessing , or some particular request , rather then all the rest ; as it is said of elias , james 5. 17. 18. and 2 kings 2. 12. the charrets and horsemen of israel . reas . for it is not because of the number of intercessors , nor because of the righteousness [ only ] of such , or so many as shall pray unto him , that he grants their request ; but it is rather because of their faithfulness and fervency in such very particular for which they pray , as jam. 1. 6 , 7 , 8. & chap. 5. 16. for it sometimes falls out , that men that are the most faithful ordinarily , yet may in some particulars be more diffident then the weakest , so that their faith failing them , they begin to sink ; as peter on the water , though he had walked already , through the power of god , yet the sight of a storm struck him into doubts ; and you know the place where it is said of christ himself , that he [ could ] do no great works there , because of their unbelief . and therefore it is not the bare form of ordination , though administred by never so many , or never so eminent men , that can prevail for a blessing on such or such a man ; but it is the fervency and faithfulness of such who do ordain them that obtains the blessing ; for by how much stronger men are in faith in that very particular , so much the more powerful they are with god to obtain his blessing , and the presence and power of the holy ghost to be in greater measure conferred upon him to enlarge and enable him for such a work , and for service to his name in such an office . and therefore such men , who in the general apprehension of such a church , are the most faithful and fervent in spirit that can be obtain'd , and the most inward and familiar with god , ought to be requested , and sought unto by such a church to assist them in ordination of any such officer , and to be their mouth and hands unto god , even the mouth and hands of the whole church , who ( as it is granted ) ought to be present , and to joyn in prayer together with them . and thus to do , is not to [ aliene ] their own liberties in that respect , for they may do it themselves in case of necessity , as hath been said , when there is not to be had more eminent and faithful men then is amongst themselves , or if they cannot obtain them : for it doth not take such liberties from them , nor power to use them , in case of necessity , because that others assist them at their request , no more then another minister , praying or preaching together with them at their request , takes away from them their proper liberty of praying themselves . and therefore i shall much wonder if any godly consciencious man shall oppose this doctrine , though the custom hath been ( as they were instructed by some of their ministers ) to practise otherwise : yea , and though i also speak it in behalf of those of the presbyterial way , for i do not speak it in behalf of men ; but in behalf of the truth , which i ought to esteem before all the men on the face of the earth ; i therefore speak it , because i beleeve , that thus it becometh them , to fulfil all righteousness : for greatness in reputation ought to be preferred in such publike ministrations above greatness in deed , for christ was greater [ in deed ] then john the baptist , though not in [ reputation ] at the time of his baptism , and therefore so it became them ; to fulfill all righteousness , mat. 3. 24 , 15. for without all contradiction the less is blessed of the greater in ordinary ways , at least of the greater in reputation : john had need to be baptized of christ , the less of the greater , to this christ assents ; but john was greater in reputation at that present time , therefore it became them rather to follow the general reputation , then the inherent power for baptization , wherein subsisted the greatness in deed in respect of power . for the original of power is only in god , 1 cor. 3. 5. not not in him that planteth , nor in him that watereth : and is but apprehended , or fetched out by faith , as by an immediate hand , and accordingly administred , according to the strength or measure of faith , in such an instrument , by whom such blessing or benefit whatsoever is mediately administred . it was not properly the spirit of moses that was put upon the elders , numb . 11. though it was so called , vers . 17. even the spirit that was on him ; but it was more properly even the spirit of the lord , as vers . 29. that rested on the elders , and on moses both ; and in that respect only it is properly said , that the lord took off the spirit that was on him , and put it upon them , as vers . 25. 26 , 17. for it was no other but the self-same spirit , even the spirit of god , though measured out as it pleased him , as 1 cor. 12. we must not therefore expect the blessing , because administred in such a way , or in such a manner , no , nor by faithful men , ( though we may the rather , ) but because administred through faith indeed , in the name of god , whom we ought to acknowledg as the onely fountain and original spring from whence it is derived , and variously disperst , as it pleaseth him , as jam. 1. 16 , 17 , 18. and is not in the power or custody of men to give the encrease , or blessing indeed , as 1 cor. 3. 7. and therefore all the ordinances ( though never so purely and properly administred , in respect of order , and forms of government or administrations ) will be utterly vain , invalid , empty , fruitless , and unprofitable , unless ministred in faith , yea , through faith in god , and the lord jesus christ , and that in every particular : for it is not sufficient that such administrators have faith in god for the saving of their souls , but they must have faith to apprehend his promises , concerning such particulars , whatever they administer , or desire of god to be done for them upon such occasions ; or else they may not expect to receive such things , as jam. 1. 6 , 7. and therefore the most faithful is weak enough for the meanest administration in the church of god. and therefore the end of ordination being the blessing , the means to attain it should be so ordered , as is most likely to attain unto , or acquire this end : we should so run , that we might obtain : for , in such publique cases , men often take gods name in vain for want of ayming chiefly at the proper end of any service , duty , or ordinance that men take in hand . but thus much briefly for this particular , because i hope no man will contradict what is here asserted . 2. a second thing that i have against the independent government , is briefly this , to wit , that though they do allow of consociation of churches for advice and counsel , and for the help and encouragement , resolving , comforting , &c. or for the discouragement , forsaking , and conviction , or withdrawing from , as need requires : yet they do not allow of any authoritative acting , by an assembly of such churches , either for , or against any particular church , though need require so to do ; but do account it sufficient to withdraw communion , if they so deserve , according to mat. 18. as the direction is , to deal with a brother in case of trespass , not considering that this directory is onely given out , how we ought to deal , in case of trespass , against man , one brother against another , and that in such trespasses as deserve not excommunication out of such a church , but a private withdrawing of brotherly fellowship by that particular man against whom the trespass is committed , to wit , let him be unto thee as an heathen man , and as a publican , vers . 17. it is not said , that either such a man , or any other , for trespass properly against man , should be excommunicated from the publique ordinances ; but they are first admonished to note such by a letter , and have no company with them , that they might be ashamed , to see how that will work to bring them to repentance ; but they must not for such faults account them as enemies , but admonish them as brethren , as 2 thess . 3. 14 , 15. and bear them patiently , yea , though we think of them , that they are evil men , 2 tim. 2. 24 , 25 , 26. for we may easily be deceived , especially in our own cause , and be apt to judg and censure without moderation : and excommunication ought onely to be administred in case of sin against god , when we can scarce , in the judgment of charity , think any better of them , but that they are wicked men , cast out from amongst your selves : that [ wicked man ] saith the apostle , 1 cor. 5. 13. and of this sort also were hymeneus and alexander , who had made shipwrack of faith , and fell to blasphemy ; besides which , or for such like gross and notorious sins , and that against god , we read not of any that were delivered unto satan like those , 1 tim. 1. 19 , 20. argu. but this directory of our blessed saviour , going no further but to private withdrawing , in case of trespass , brother against brother , is not sufficient to direct the church how she ought to deal , in case of sins deserving that dreadful sentence of excommunication : but we must likewise take in , for further direction , that 1 cor. 5. and many other scriptures , as you shall hear anon . consequ . therefore it follows , that as a particular church is bound as well to deal with offendors ( if they so deserve ) by that heavy sentence of excommunication , as withdraw their communion and fellowship from them in case of lesser sins : even so in like case , churches consociated ought to deal with offending churches ( if they so deserve ) by that heavy sentence of excommunication , as well as withdraw their communion from them in case of lesser sins : and the churches censures of excommunication ought not to be bounded within the verge of particular churches against particular persons ; but ought to be executed against whole churches by the sister churches ( consociated and assembled for that very end ) if their sin so deserve ; as in case of toleration of blaspemy , or idolatry , or sabbath-breaking , or adultery , and such like gross prophaness in the members of the church , as 1 cor. 5. 10 , 11 , 12. and do not censure them for it . and take notice by the way , that i therefore say [ in the members of the church ] because such who are profane , and never professed repentance , nor faith in god , and the lord jesus christ , though they come to the church , yet they are not capable of excommunication , because that even in the judgment of charity they are as yet without , in the apostles sence , and are not of such as are called brethren ; but being already without , and in the power , and slavery , and captivity of satan , need no more casting out , nor delivering unto him : but it were gross foolery to spend the churches censures upon such wicked men , neither could it be expected to be effectual against them , nor take impression on them ; and therefore the apostle doth not for altogether inhibit our companying together with such , as vers . 10. but with such ( amongst such ) as are called brethren ; with such a one , that they should not eat : whereas in another place , if any man that beleeved not invited them to a feast , if they were disposed to go , they might go ; for he giveth them no inhibition in that case , but onely a directory how to carry themselves , as 1 cor. 10. 27. and it is but a foolish thing to bring men to the stool of repentance for some one particular notorious sin , till they can also profess and seriously too , as before god , that they repent for all , both secret and open , and do hope for pardon . and it is but a deluding of mens consciences , to put them in hope of pardon for one , till they repent for all , and do resolve to forsake them , jam. 2. 10. 11. and thus much by the way ; i do now come to the point , and do briefly assert : assert . that it is the duty of true christian chuches , joyntly consociate , or assembled together , not only to admonish , and withdraw communion , as hath been said ; and as it is granted by mr. cotton , in the way of the churches of n. e. pag. 109. sect. 6. to wit , that they look at it , as their duty , to be faithfull one church to another ; in like sort , as the brethren of one church are called to be faithful one towards another ; in regard that churches enjoy , and professe communion one with another , as well as brethren of a particular church ; alledging cant. 8. 8. & 2 cor. 11. 28. look also sect. 7. but that therefore , it likewise follows , even from their own argument ; that an assembly of churches , is also bound to deliver unto satan , in the name of god , and the lord jesus christ , and by his power &c. any such church , as shall so deserve ; or the officers , or ministers of any such church , who shall so deserve , if their own church shall neglect to do it ; else , they deal not faithfully with such ministers , or brethren , not with such a church , as in duty they are bound , 1 cor. 5. after the apostles doctrine and example , 1 tim. 5. 19. 20. as hath been said : nay , if they but call themselves brethren , or ministers of christ , rev. 2. 2 , 20. 21. or churches of christ , as chap. 3. 9. yea , jews and are not . they ought , i say , to be dealt with , by divine authority , in the name of christ , as synagogues of satan , as false apostles , as wicked iezebels , as lying brethren ; and so proclaimed ( joyntly ) by the churches , with one consent , and delivered to satan , that they might learn , not to blaspheme , or not to seduce , and deceive the servants , and people of god ; nor call themselves apostles and ministers of christ , when they are not ; or his ministers and embassadors , in such things and messages , wherein they are not ; as revel . 2. 2 , 20. or call themselves jews , or of the people of god , and are nothing so , as chap. 3. 9. but do lye notoriously , and that in the name of christ . i say , the censures of the church ought to pass upon them , in as publike and declarative a way and manner , acco●ding to their sin , as their sin shall deserve ; and that in the name of god , and the lord iesus christ ; whose judgement it is , that ought to be administred , and publikely held forth in his sacred name , with the grounds thereof , from the law and testimony , if men so deserve , even to execration . reas . for the like care , and the like meanes in every respect , is to be used , held forth , and exercised over such sister churches ; whether false or true , if they be so deemed , through their own profession , as is , and ought to be used over particular brethren , by a particular church ; whether such brethren be false or true , that through their own profession , are deemed brethren , or called brethren , as 1 cor. 5. 11. and if admonition , and in some cases excommunication , be ordinances of god , sanctified for the healing of the soules of gods people gone astray ; it were a sacrilegious injury , either to the ministers , or elders , or to whole churches , when they goe astray , to deprive them of the benefit of such wholesome medicines , when the estate of their souls stand in need thereof : as so their own arguments doth plainly resolve , in the way of the churches of n. eng. pag. 101. chap. 5. sect. 6. but it cannot be denyed , but even whole churches may so far apostatize , and go astray , either in life , or doctrine , or government , &c. as well as particular members of a congregation . reas . for suppose all the congregation do not act so wickedly , as to be fornicators , idolaters , or adulterers , &c. yet they may be induced to connive , and indulge , and be accessary with such in a great measure , as the corinthians were , with the incestious person , and therefore were sharply reprehended by the apostle paul. and if after admonition in such cases , as are proper for such gradual proceedings , there follow not repentance , and reformation ; or if any church shall tollerate idolatry , blasphemy , or prophaness , all sister churches ought in such cases , to proceed roundly against them . look in the way of the church of new eng : pag. 93. but for more certain testimony , examine and compare these scriptures following , to wit , 1 cor. 5. 11. 2 cor. 2. 6. deu. 13. 5 , 6 , &c. to the end . exod. 33. 7. acts 13. 45 , 46. iudg. 20. iosh . 7. 13 , 24 , 25 , 26. deut. 27. 15 , &c. ioshua 22. 16 , &c. iere. 48. 10 , mal. 1. 14. and such like many prophetical , popular , and national curses , which are exemplary for us to use in like cases : and they are no other , but the express mind and will of god ; which being unchangeable , ought to be published , and declaratively held forth , as occasion requires ; and the more publike , and the more visible and general that it is , and the more faithfully , and emphatically that it is exprest , and the better it is , and the more likely that it should be effectual for the end thereof ; yea , the more voyces that proclaim it , or assent unto it , with affection of minde , and faith in god , sutable thereunto ; and it is the more available , and acceptable with god , and efficacious and operative on the hearts of men , to deter , and restrain them from any such wickedness . and what need we any more , or more plaine injunction , then the apostle hath given us : to wit , if any man love not the lord jesus christ , let him be had in execration , yea maranatha : 1 cor. 16. 22. 1 tim. 1. 19 , 20. they had once occasion to have used these curses in the name of god , against some members of famous churches in new england ; and some it may be , might finde occasion to use them here , against such spies as bring an evill report upon the land of canaan ; the [ spiritual ] i mean. and doubtless , if used in faith , as they ought , they would be effectual ; for many such spies are culpable of judgement from the hand of god , as wel as these , who dyed of the plague before the lord ; as numb . 14. 36 , 37. yea , good men , whose souls shall be saved , may yet deserve to be made exemplary by the hand of god , in such a case , for the terror of others ; as so ( no doubt ) were nadab , and abihu , and vzza , and others , as we may well hope ; for even aaron himself , was admonished by moses , how to carry himself , lest he also should dye before the lord , if he were provoked , numb . 18 3. and this kinde of divine authority is far more awful , and fit to be used in all such cases ; then carnal , worldly , and humane authority ; as the effects would prove , if ministred in faith , as james 1. 5 , 6 , 7 , 8. and by the power of our lord jesus christ , as 1 cor , 5. 4. to wit , through faith in his name ; confidently beleeving , that according to his promise , he will make it effectual ; and ratifie in heaven , what ever they agree on , or binde on earth or denounce , &c. as matth. 18. for if a man have faith in god , yea though never so little , if it be but as a graine of mustard-seed , provided it be concerning such very particulars , is he prayeth for , or desireth to be done ; yea , though it were for removing trees , and planting them in the middest of the sea , it should doubtlesse be effectual , matth. 21. 25. yea , what ever yee aske of god in prayer , beleeve that ye shall receive it , and it shall be given you , saith our savior christ , mar. 11. 22 , 23 , 24. mat. 17. 20. luk. 17. 6. and this divine authority , this power through faith , being ministred in his name , as it ought to be , is a far greater , and more awful authority , then any humane power , or carnal authority , that can be given by men , in what place soever ; for it is indeed the power of our lord and saviour jesus christ , spoken of , 1 cor. 5. 5. it is the power god. mat. 18. 18 , 19 , 20. fetched down from heaven , by the hand of faith . 3. a third thing that i have against the independent government , is their strictness in trial of all , whom they admit to partake of the sacraments . but lest i should be over-tedious , and there being many arguments , which have long been opposed each against other , concerning this maine difference , which if once reconciled , all other differences , would easily be agreed . i shall therefore propose my own apprehensions , partly abreviating what hath formerly been said in some particulars , by way of result , and then shall answer some objections concerning this main difference , and shall so conclude , lest my book should swell to a tedious volumn . after that a particular church is constituted and organiz'd , for administration of all the ordinances they ought to observe ; these ensuing rules , as most consonant with the practice of the apostles , and of all the churches in the primitive times , and most sutable to the word of god , and the rule of charity therein contained ; and to his own ways , held forth to us for our imitation , who profess oour selves to be followers of god as his dear children , and to walke in love , as christ hath loved us ; and do account the end of the commandment to be love , out of a pure heart , and a good conscience , and of faith unfeigned . 1. first , it ought to be their chief care and endeavour , that the preaching of the word ( which is the chief means that god hath appointed for the saving of souls ) be with all diligence , publickly administred , both to beleevers and infidels , even to all comers , with this end , and respect chiefly , that such who are already beleevers , might be edified in faith and love , which are in christ jesus , and that others might be convinced , and converted , and turned to the faith , yea , and that even all such whom god hath ordained to eternal life through jesus christ : for care should be taken , that non should be lost , nor go astray , nor be offened in any respect , that neither bruisedreeds should be broken off , nor smoking flax extinct , or quenched ; nor that which is halting be turned out of the way , but rather healed , and restored , yea blown and kindled , and bound up , and mollified , and helped , and strengthned , by all possible means that god hath appointed in his holy word . 2. secondly , as saving of soul , and edifying of the church , is the chief business to be cared for , and indeavoured by the church , and as the ministry of the word is the chief means tending thereunto : so it necessarily follows , that not only for the present , but for future likewise , provision be made , that none be elected , nor admitted into office , as minister of the word , to labour in the word and doctrine , nor to rule and govern , or minister to the poor , as deacons , &c. but such who are so qualified , as the word of god requires they should ; that so they might not be lead , either by blind guides , or idol shepherds , dumb dogs , devouring wolves , soul-murtherers , false prophets , that sew pillows under all armholes ; and flatter men into a fools paradise , being partial in the law , or profane and scandalous in any respect : as the scripture is large for direction herein , how they ought to be qualified , through faith , and love , which are in christ jesus , act. 6. 3. not any officer , no not the deacons , but care should be taken , that they should be men of honest report , full of the holy ghost and wisdom . 3. thirdly , that in any possibility , this might be secured , and provided for , not only for the present , but for future generations ( as much as possible ) it ought to be the care of every member of that body corporate , that visible church so joyned , and constituted ; that none be admitted , and joyned , or incorporated together with them , either first , or last , either for the time present , or for future generations : but such only , in whom all the members of the said body ( in the judgment of charity ) may justly confide , that they will not , to their knowledge ( either in elections , or ejections , approbations , or results , in any church-busness , either for receiving in , or casting out , or any matter wherein their voice or sufferage is justly requisite , as a member of the body ) deal unjustly or impartially , perfidiously or unfaithfully , but as before god , and the lord jesus christ , and the elect angels ; lest in after times , by means of ungodly men , which might be crept in , if care be not taken , and provision made , to keep such out , they that are ungodly might heap to themselves teachers after their own hearts , such as have been mentioned : and therefore so far forth as such body corporate is in any respect politically joyned , for the good of the whole , every member being part of the whole , and therefore having interest in the whole it self , and that not onely for the good of the rest , but for it self likewise ; and therefore ought in conscience to have vote and sufferage amongst the rest , in all such cases as concern the whole , for the good of all . so every member ought to be careful , that none be admitted as joynt members , and incorporated with them , as a body politique , but such in whom they do and can confide ; that they will not , to their knowledg , in any such case , either deal unfaithfully concerning the whole , or any particular member , in any such respect ; but , as hath been said , for the glory of god , and the good of the body . and not onely so , but tryal should be had concerning their knowledg and spiritual understanding , both in the things of god , and that concern the church , in respect of government and discipline thereof , that they be both sound , and able to discern even of things that differ , in some good measure ; and be likewise conscientious , suitable thereunto . for , as they that are weak ought to be received , though not unto doubtful disputations : so , they that are weak ought to be received , but not unto doubtful elections , and such like business , as necessarily require , that men should understand and know , what they do , when they act therein . and therefore it was , that though all the levites were accepted of god , and taken for all the first born of the children of israel : and given as a gift to aaron and to his sons , from among the children of israel , to do the service of the children of israel in the tabernacle of the congregation : and to make an attonement for the children of israel , that there be no plague among the children of israel : when the children of israel came nigh unto the sanctuary , &c. yet they were not required , as called of god , to go in , and wait on the service of the tabernacle of the congregation , but from twenty five years old and upwards ; and so but to continue till they came to fifty years old , and were then to cease waiting on the service thereof , and should serve no more , as levit. 8. 18 , 19 , 24 , 25. so that it evidently appears , that till they came to ripeness of years , and to a suitable discretion and gravity , for such holy service , it did not appertain unto them to administer in such a service . and so no more it doth to men that are true beleevers , and truly faithful , till they come to maturity and ripeness in knowledg , and have their wits exercised , as the apostle saith , to discern both good and evil . for it is all one , to be led by others that are blinde guides , as to act of our selves ignorantly and blindly ; not knowing what we do , or speak , or whereof we affirm ; for we may speak evil or good , and that injuriously , of the things we know not : and so , through blinde guidance , perish in the ditch . 4. and fourthly , this being so , and that such church affairs are of such weighty consequence and concernment to every member , and for the good of all , and for the saving of souls ; that it is not possible men should be too provident and circumspect in these respects . it is therefore requisite , and that which is the duty of every member of such a body , to take care , that none be admitted to be incorporated , and joyned with them , to have power and vote in the general business , but such onely as are known and approved for faithfulness and sincerity in true christianity , in the practise of piety and of religious service and worship of god in all such duties both private and in publique , as god requires . and though they be thus known and approved by some that are officers and members of such body politique , yet for fuller satisfaction unto all the rest , it will be needful that they should openly and publiquely , before all the church , not onely profess their faith in god , and the lord jesus christ , and their repentance and resolution through the grace of god , to forsake all their sins , and to carry themselves suitable unto such profession both before god and men . but , for further security and satisfaction to all the church , they ought to be engaged , by entering into covenant both with god and the church , to continue faithful and just , and to deal impartially in all such respects , according to their knowledg , as god shall assist and strengthen them so to do ; and thus far , and in these respects , such particular body can never be too careful , nor take too strict tryal of such who are admitted to be members of the same . but if they be not careful and strict herein , the men of this world shall rise up in judgment against them , and condemn them herein ; who in civil corporations are careful and strict , that none be admitted to have vote amongst them , in election of officers , for the government thereof , but such only as ( having served an apprenticeship some certain time ) are experienced amongst them , and practised in their trades , and are so made free ; and that saying of christ is justly verified against all such , that the men of this world are wiser in their generation , then the children of light , and will be applyed in displeasure against them , if they know these things , and will not obey and do accordingly ; yea , even the blood of souls will one day be required even at their hands , if they will not be careful and faithful , and provident in the use of means , which properly tend to the saving or damning of immortal souls . 5. and fifthly , on the other part , for the administration of the sacrament of baptism , and of the lords supper , such particular church ought not to be strict , nor ridged and severe , but with all charity , meekness and patience , bear the infirmities and burdens of others , and may not please themselves ; as these scriptures hold forth unto us , 1 cor. 16. 14. & chap. 13. & chap. 10. 32 , 33. & acts 2. 41. 42. chap. 16. 15. chap. 8. 37. 1 cor. 1. 16. mat. 3. 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11. and therefore , first , the sacrament of baptism ought to be administred unto all such children , one or both of whose legitimate parents are true beleevers , i mean , beleevers of the true christian faith , though yet for the present their faith is not justifying , in respect of themselves , but meerly historical , as acts 8. 37. if they be not dogs or swine , scorners of , or barkers against the ways of god , and his church and people . and this also is but only to be expected to be held forth or manifested to the church in the serious and publike profession and acknowledgment thereof in the publike congregation . for it was no more that philip required of the eunuch , and peter of the jaylor , whose whole houshold was baptized of him upon such profession : yea , though they be such men who are not admittable to the blessed sacrament of the lords supper , by reason of scandal , which may lie upon them , yet if they earnestly desiring the salvation of their children , and being such who , in their minority , were baptized likewise , and professing a purpose to amend their ways , and turn unto god , they ought not to be put back , but to be baptized , and their parents admonished how they ought to instruct them and bring them up , and that they themselves also should bring forth fruits meet for repentance , as the covenant of god made with them in baptism in their minority requireth of them , if they will not be accounted coveant-breakers both with god and man ; and so their charge lyeth even at their own doors , and the minister is clear , and the church satisfied , if it be serious and in publike , &c , for all outward ordinances ought to be administred according to the judgment of charity , and ought not to be restrained to the judgment of certainty , but according to love or charity , the properties whereof are not to think evil , but to beleeve all things , hope all things , and to take all things in the better part , and not to judg or censure according to the appearance , but righteous judgment , and as we can make it manifest that we ought so to judg . 2. and secondly , in like manner for administration of the blessed sacrament of the lords supper , it is only needful that such who would be admitted to partake of it , should in the publike congregation make open profession of the true christian faith , and confession of , and repentance for their sins , with a resolution to abandon and forsake them , and to walk worthy of that vocation whereunto they are called of god , and of such communion and fellowship with the church of god whereto they are admitted . provided always , that they be admonished beforehand of the danger and judgment that they are liable unto ( if they either for the present shal deal hypocritically with the church of god in such publike profession , & do but lye and dissemble before god & men ) as did but justly befall ananias and sapphirah : and likewise of the judgment and censure that the church is bound publikly to denounce & pronounce against them in suspending them again from such communion ; if they turn again with the dog to his vomit , and with the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire , and will not be reclaimed by gentle means to forsake their sins , and so the fault shall lie at their own doors , if they do dissemble , or turn again ; and both the minister and the church is guiltless herein before god and men , for they cannot justly deny them the ordinance , though they have sinned notoriously , if they freely confess such their notorious sins , and profess repentance , and a full purpose of amendment of life , and that they are perswaded that god hath pardoned , and doth and will accept them in jesus christ , and save their souls . for what know the ministers , or the whole church , but that they are converted , and truned unto god with all their hearts , if they so profess ? and upon what grounds can they lawfully deny to administer the same unto any such , though their sins aforetime have been as scarlet or crimson dye in the sight of men ? and who knoweth but such publike engagement may oblige them in conscience for future time , and for fear of the judgment of god against them , to keep their covenant , & amend their lives , and turn unto god , and cleave unto him even with all their hearts , and find mercy with him ; whereas on the contrary , if they should be rejected , or deferred and rebuked , and not accepted and beleeved , when they so profess , they should do as much as in them lyeth , even to destroy their weak faith , and to quench the sparkles of their smoaking flax , and break in peeces such broken reeds , whom , for ought we know , god hath freely accepted and received unto mercy , and for whom christ hath dyed , and ordained such ordinances to encrease and strengthen their feeble faith , as well as for the strong and most faithful members of the church of god : for who would have thought that christ should have called zachous , the publican , and dined with him , rather then any of the faithful and godly people of the jews at jerusalem , who doubtless beleeved as well as he , and to have eaten and drunken with publicans and sinners ? but he gives the reason , for he came not to call the righteous , but sinners to repentance , &c. but it will be objected , 1. that these are novel distinctions and divisions , that some should be admitted to have their children baptized , and neither of the parents admitted as yet to the sacrament of the lords supper . 2. and again secondly , that some should be admitted to the sacrament of the lords supper , and yet not be admitted to be incorporated members of that particular church , nor have votes in elections , and admissions or ejections , and censures , &c. as the members have ; this is novel and strange . i answer , that it is no more novel , then the sacred scripture and primitive examples , as i nothing doubt , but to make it manifest ; and that these distinctions and divisions are of absolute necessity in a church rightly constituted , and governed , and disciplined ; and the ordinances of god rightly administred , both to the weak and strong , as they ought to be . 1. and first then , i shall endeavor to make it good , that the children of such have been baptized by the apostles themselves , upon bare profession of historical faith , without either confession of their sins , or profession of their repentance , and a resolution of amendment of life , that we read of in scripture . and in my apprehension , this is either clear form the baptism of the iaylors houshold , and from the ordinary tender of baptism to the whole housholds of all that professed bare historical faith , to wit , that jesus christ is the son of god ; or else our grounds are to seek for the baptism of infants , acts 16. 15 , 31 , to 34. and acts 8 37. and if they be such parents , who have been baptized in their minority , their childrens case is no other , but in equal respect with the grand children of such parents whose grand-fathers are holy , but their own parents profane , who yet ordinarily are accounted admitable . 2. and secondly , concerning admittance of all to the sacrament of the lord supper , that do desire admittance , and will in the publique congregation profess a true justifying , and lively faith in jesus christ ; and if their sins have been notorious , do freely confess them , and profess repentance , and a resolution of amendment of life : i cannot see how any church can deny to admit them , whatever they have been in former times ; but that they ought to administer the outward ordinance upon that ground , without any further tryal or examination ; and ought not to defer the acceptance of them , with all brotherly love , and kinde respects , as dear brethren ; for so in the judgment of charity ( seeing they cannot know the contrary of certainty ) they ought to judg , as hath been said before : and there was never more required of any in the primitive times , as 1 cor. 16. 14. & chap. 13. & chap. 10. 32 , 33. & acts 2. 41 , 42. i shall therefore engage any that oppose this doctrine , to shew a scriptural example on the one hand , as there is many on the other . 3. but thirdly , that all these should , at their first admission to the outward ordinances , being but babes in christ , be likewise admitted as visible saints , and members of a visible church , and should so be approved of by such a church and every member thereof , and incorporated with them politically to have power and vote in elections , &c. ( in my apprehension ) were very absurd . 1. for , first , till their sanctification be visible indeed unto such a church , how can they approve them as visible saints ? this were deeply to engage the members of the church to dissemble their judgments , which is not lawful , for they must lay aside all guile and dissimulation , as well as all uncharitableness , in judging of one another , as 1 pet. 2. 1. 2. and secondly , they ought not to make any judgment at all , but leave it to god , whether they stand or fall to their own masters ; but in cases of certainty , in which they have good ground for a full perswasion this way or that way , lest by any means , they should wrong their brethren , or the church of god ; for they should sometimes quench the smoking flax , and break also the bruised reed ; and sometime again disparage and disgrace the judgment of the church by approving such as do but deal hypocritically . 3. and thirdly , this were as much as if the levites should all have been admited to attend on the service of the tabernacle of the congregation from their very childhood , as well as after that they were come to years of discretion : for the case is justly paralel , as these scriptures will prove , levit. 8. 18 , 19. 24 , 25. and 1 pet. 2. 5 , 9. rev. 1. 6. reas . for thus i compare them , all the elect that are built upon christ by a lively faith , are lively stones built up a spiritual house , an holy priesthood , to offer up spiritual sacrifice , acceptable to god by jesus christ , 1 pet. 2. 5. & chap. 1. 2. so that all beleevers are accounted as priests , even form their first ingrafting into christ by faith. but as there was priests of divers orders ; so also ought the true beleevers to be distinguished ; i compare therefore the newly converted to the levites in their minority , till they came to years ; and all the grown christians , that are experienced in the trade and practise of christianity , to the levites , when they came to years of discretion : and all the elders and officers , elected by the church , i compare to the priests , the sons of aaron ; and so the ministers to aaron himself ; and who knoweth but that the lord jesus christ will govern his church after these examples paralel hereto , seeing the apostle peter doth thus compare them as resembling the priesthood ? 1 pet. 2. 5 , 9. & chap. 1. 2. as hath been said before . 4. and fourthly , this double reception is clear also , in my apprehension , from the apostles own words ; them that are weak ( saith he ) receive , but not unto doubtful disputations ; and therefore by consequence not to act , or vote , or exercise power in doubtful elections , and intricate business , which , for want of understanding , they are not able for , till their wits be exercised in spiritual things to discern both good and evil . it is not proper to admit them , or approve them as joynt members of such body politick , till all the rest of the members be in some good measure satisfied , both of their abilities sutable , and of the sincerity of their hearts and intentions for the good of the same . but for further satisfaction , that these are no novel distinctions or divisions of the church , but of ancient use in the policy of the churches in the primitive times : consider the words of origen , alledged against the remonstrant , who recites the words of origen to be these , to wit , that it was the custom of the christian teachers first to examine such as desired to hear them , of whom there were two orders . the first were catechumeni , or beginners . the other was of such as were more perfect . among whom there were some or dained to enquire into the life and manners of such as are admitted into the church . that they may banish such from the publike assembly , that perpetrate scandalous acts . i say , let it be considered , whether the policy of the church in those times was not justly paralel to that which hath been said , and whether it be not also sutable to the policy of some civil corporations , who ought to be followed in all wise policies , that may tend for good of a body spiritual , as hath been said . consider therefore whether those 〈◊〉 or [ beginners ] of which origen spake , were not like [ appren●io●● ] that had not served out their time in a city or corporation , and therefore had no voyce in election of officers as majors and aldermen , and those of the common counce : and secondly , whether those whom he speaketh of , that were more perfect , were not like free-men of a city , who have a vote in election of officers for the government of the whole , and of a common-councel , &c. and thirdly , whether those that were chosen and ordained out of that order , which they accounted more perfect , whose office , to which they were ordained , was to enquire into the life and manners of the people , and to banish , &c. were not like the aldermen and common-councel of a city , to whom all is committed ? and fourthly , whether the christian teachers of those times were not over all , as majors of cities , who are chosen by vote of all the freemen , and of none but freemen ; for apprentices have no vote , till their freedom be examined , and approved likewise ? and the children of light ought to be as wise in their generation as the men of this world ; and the church is compared to a city or corporation : so that the paralels in every particular do hold correspondency both with the levitical priesthood , to whom the apostle compares the church , and to the practise of the churches in the primitive times , is origen relates them , and to the civil government of bodies corporated , and to the reason and end of all policy civil and ecclesiastick , to wit , the good , and benefit , and safety of the whole . 1. as first , those that upon profession of the true christian faith , and repentance for their sins , and or a resolution to amend their lives , are admitted to the sacrament of the lords supper ; are justly paralel to all the levites , that , during their minority , were not admitted to attend upon the service of the tubernacte : and they are justly paralel to those that , in the primitive times , were called cateemement or beginners : and they are justly paralel to apprentices in a city that have not served out their time : and they hold correspondency with the reason and end of all government and policy , which is the good of the whole : for as the heir , so long as he is a child , differeth nothing from a servant , though he be lord of all , but is under tusors and governors , till the time appointed of the fat , her , as the apostle saith in a case not unsutable ; so for the veny same reason , there being a childhood and minority in [ grace ] as well as [ nature , ] reason tells us , that it is not fit , nor good , nor safe , nor likely to tend for the good of the body ; that power of government , or vote in elections should be committed unto such , who are not yet capable of such a business , or are doubted of , whether they do intend the good of the whole , no more then women are to have vote amongst them , nor any specified in these parallels instanced in . 2. and secondly , those who are admitted , not only to the sacrament , but to be incorporated as joynt members , of a particular church , upon such trial and approbation , as hath heerv said , and justly parallel to all the levites , that being come to yeare of discretion , and gravity , were admitted to attend on the service of the tabernacle , if without blemish . and they are justly parrallel , to those in the primitive times , that were more perfect then the beginners . and they are justly parallel , to the freemen of a citie , who have votes in elections , and out of whom the common councel is chosen , as their representatives ; and to act for them as neeed requires . 3. and thirdly , the elders chosen , by all the joynt members of such a particular church , and ordained ; &c. are justly parallel to the sons of aaron , to whom belonged the priesthood , in a peculiar manner , above the rest of the sons of levi , for they were anointed with the holy oyle , as well as aaron , levit. 8. 30 , 31. and were ordained , and consecrated to the priests office . and they are justly parallel , to those that were chosen and ordained in the primitive times , to look into the lives , and manners of such as were admitted into the church , and to banish , &c. and they are justly parallel , to the aldermen of a citie or corporation . 4. and fourthly , the ministers of the churches , that are chosen by the eldens , and all the rest of the body , numb . 4. 16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , 20 , 27. are justly parallel , to aaron the chief priest , who figuratively represented the lord jesus christ , and governed , and ministred in his sacred name , and was above his sons . and they are iustly parallel , to the teachers in the primitive times , who were chief in government , as well as in all other ministrations , in the name of god , and the lord jesus christ ; and therefore are called angels . revel . 2. and they are also parallel , the to majors of cities ; who though they are chief in power and command , yet it is by consent , and according to the agreement ; both of the aldermen , and of the common councel , who are chosen by the freemen as well as the major , for the agitation and transaction of all their businesse , for the good of all . but it will be objected on the other part , that this publique profession of faith , and repentance , and of a resolution to amend our lives , and to walke worthy of such vocation , will be thought too much , considering that many both men and women , are bashfull , and timorous , and unfit to speak , and declare themselves in the open congregation . answ . i answer briefly , that they may come before hand to the ministers and elders , and signifie their minds and desires unto them , and desire them to express so much in publike on their behalf , to satifie the congregation of their desires and resolutions , and of their repentance , and hope in these respects , and it will be sufficient , that they testifie their assent to what they express for them , and in their names and behalf . and how can the whole congregation be more easily satified in these respects , that men are cordial and sincere in such desires , then by doing it publikely in the open congregation , who may all beare witness of such profession ? and if they turn back , and live not sutable in some good measure , they may all joyne in their publike censure , in like manner , as in their admittance . and it cannot be denyed , but that which is the duty of every man and woman to beleeve , and do , before he approach to receive the sacrament ; that he ought not to deny , to profess in publike before all the congregation , that are of that profession , with whom he desires communion . and no man will deny , but that these ensuing duties are requisite , and necessary to be beleeved and done , before we approach to this ordinance . 1. first , repentance for all our sins , with confession of them , such as have been notorious and publike , if they be objected against us , even in the publike congregation ; with a resoltuion to forsake them , and amend our lives , &c. 2. faith is a necessary duty , before we approach to receive the sacrament of the lords supper ; for without faith we cannot receive the things signified ; we cannot eate the flesh , and drinke the blood of the lord jesus christ , but by a lively faith. for the outward bread and wine , being but the sacrament or signe thereof , is not the thing it self , that is thereby signified ; for the one may be eaten by dogs and swine , but the other cannot , but by him onely that hath true justifying and saving faith. and therefore this faith must at least be [ professed , ] else the most charitable judgement cannot think them prepared for this ordinance , if they deny to profess it before the whole church . 3. thirdly , love is also a necessary duty ; love unto god , and the lord jesus christ . and love to our brethren , and neighbours , and the whole church of god. for a true faith worketh by love ; and he that loveth not , knoweth not god ; for god is love , and he that loveth not his brother , abideth in death , &c. and therefore no man is fit to receive the sacrament , that is not reconciled , both to god and men , and in charity with all , as these scriptures shew . but it will be objected , that if all children of such beleeving parents , who outwardly profess , that jesus christ is the son of god , must be admitted to the christian baptism ; then , all must be admitted without distinction : for all will profess , that they so beleeve , though they be never so wicked and malicious enemies to the church of god , and even unto christ himself ; but our holy things must not be given unto dogs and swine , mat. 7. 6. i answer . true , if they be dogs or swine ; that is to say , if they be such , as bark against , and speake evill of the waies of god , and of his name and truth , or of his ministers , or disciples , and children , &c. for righteousness sake : they may , and ought to be excluded from all such priviledges , and their children likewise . or if they be despisers and scorners of such holy things ; turning with the dog to his vomit , and with the saw that was washed to her wallowing in the mire ; they may be excluded , and ought so to be , if they can be proved apparently to be such . but as the lord inhibited the condemning of any man , or putting him to death under two or three witnesses : yea , though one witness , might never so fully assert and assure it to the judgements of men , yet it must not stand . even so also , it must either be apparent , and clearly witnessed . or it is not sufficient to exclude their children from their outward ordinance ; they themselves being such , who have been baptized in their minority : for they are no other but in like condition with grandchildren of godly parents , who are not approved as actuall beleevers , and yet their children are admitted unto baptisme ; if they be not so profane , as to account them dogs , or swine , &c. as hath been said . if they turn not to be enemies to the church of god. he that is not against us , is with us , saith christ . object . but it will be objected ; if the root be not holy , how may we expect that the branches should . but the apostle plainly asserteth it , that such , whose parents are both of them unbeleeving , are unclean . now this he only meaneth , that they are outwardly to be accounted unclean ; for he doth not so judge , as if all were reprobates , that are borne of such parents , but that they are not to be admitted , as the children of the church , to the outward priviledges , till their hearts be purified through faith in god , when they come to years : and therefore this doctrine , is quite contrary to the apostles assertion . i answer briefly , that i list not to be contentious in this matter ; for in this case , as no man ought to be compell'd to bring his children unto christian baptisme ; so no man ought to be compell'd to baptize any ; but to doe in these things , as their charitable judgments shall engage them in conscience of their duty unto god , and to their christian neighbours , and to the church , &c. for there is strong arguments on both sides , the quintessence whereof , i shall briefly propose on both parties , and leave them to their consciences , to engage them to either , as they think best : and first then , for answer to this precedent objection , i do confesse that this argument were unanswerable , if it were certain that the apostle spak it , of such beleevers , as have true visible , saving , and justifying faith : and that such as they can likewise demonstrate for satisfying of the church that they are such beleevers . but if the apostle only mean it , of such a faith , as upon profession whereof , the ennuch was admitted ; to wit , a beleeving that jesus christ is the son of god. and that there is no name given under heaven , by which we can be saved , but the name of jesus christ. if such as these , i say , be the beleevers , intended by the holy ghost in this place , then we remain still , in the same dubitations as we were before . and so all that profess ; yea , or do but confess , that jesus christ is the son of god , must be accounted in the judgement of charity , as born of god , because that flesh and bloud could never have revealed so much unto them , as 1 john 4. 2. as christ said unto peter . provided always , that such their profession be serious and cordial , at the least , outwardly . object . but it will be objected , that abraham recived the signe of circumcision a seal of the righteousness of faith , which he had when he was uncircumcised , rom. 4. 11. conseq . therefore it followes , that their seal of the now covenart , to wit , baptisme , should not be administred unto any but such , or to their seed , that have faith before , as abraham had , to set this seal to . answ . i answer , that this argument migh likewise hold the better ; if the faith here spoken off , vers . 3. were beleeving in god , to justification . but it is but as the other before spoken off : it is but said ; abraham beleeved god , and it was imputed to him for righteousness . now beleeving god , that what ever he promiseth shall come to passe . and beleeving in god unto justification , are far different ; for the devils had the first but only the elect do attain to the second . for even abraham himself , as the apostle saith , was justified declaratively by works , and not by faith onely ; namely , when he had offered his sonne upon the altar , james 2. 19 , 20 , 21 , 22 , 23 , 24. conseq . therefore it follows , that this faith also , though it was imputed unto him for righteousness , and shall also be imputed to all that so beleeve god. yet it is of it self but a bare historical , and only an outward historical profession in the sight of men , and it is no more but such as the devils have , and therefore tremble ; but it is not saving and justifying faith , till men can apply the promises of god , through jesus christ , peculiarly to themselves , as to beleeve that god is [ their god , ] and that christ is [ their saviour , ] which many of the elect can hardly attain to till their death beds , their faith is so weak ; but we must not destroy their weak faith , for whom christ dyed ; we must not quench any smoaking flax , nor break asunder the brused reeds , nor turn aside that which yet halteth out of the way ; but it should rather be healed , or bound up , or blown , and kindled by all such ordinances , as might incourage them to hold on , or that might strengthen their faith , for they ought to be dealt with as [ children , ] by such doctrines and principles as are accounted the first principles of the oracles of god , because they have need of milk , more then of strong meat ; and what is baptism , but one of the first principles ? as heb. 5. 12 , 13 , 14. & chap. 6. 1 , 2. yea , baptism is such an ordinance as the apostle paul asserteth plainly , that he was not sent to baptize , but to preach the gospel ; accounting baptism a more inferior ordinance then preaching of the word , though they sometimes minister it . for the ministry of the word is a more spiritual ordiance and ministration , for it is not baptism that now saveth us , to wit , not the putting away of the filth of the flesh , ( which is but the outward sign ) but the answer of a good conscience , when our hearts are purified through faith by the holy ghost . and the word is called , the word of faith which the apostles preached , and they did attend more constantly on the word , and commanded others to administer baptism that were of less esteem for the ministry of the word , that they might not be hindred neither by that , nor by serving of tables , from that spiritual ordinance for the saving of souls . and it is plain from john the baptists confession , that even his baptism was far inferior to that of christs by his holy spirit ; and it is plainly said , that there went out unto him jerusalem , and all judea , and all the region round about jordan , confessing their sins ; yea , such whom he accounted generations of vipens were likewise baptized of him ; for by a continued discourse by way of admonition he speaketh ( even to them ) saying , vers . 11. indeed baptize [ you ] with water to repentance , &c. i mat. 3. 5 , 6 , &c. but it may be objected , that even john the baptist prophesied of christ , that he should baptize them with the holy ghost , and with fire , and so he also did within a few days after his ascension ; and that his fan is in his hand , and that he will throughly purge his floor , and gather his wheat into his garner , but will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire , as vers . 12. and therefore it follows , that though john admitted all that came in a promiscuous manner , yet christ will purge more throughly , and blow away the chaff , when he hath gathered his wheat ; and therefore it appears , that it is his mind that his floor should be throughly purged , and all his wheat garner'd . i answer true , but heed must be taken , that none of the wheat be lost ; it were better to retain the chaff and all , then lose any wheat ; and there is sometimes wheat so clothed with the chaff , that it cannot be unclothed by the threshing instrument , but it will appear like the other chaff ; and again , there is some other chaff that is so like wheat , that you can hardly discern it , till you know it by the weight ; and so it is likewise with men not infallibly guided , they cannot discern to judg at all by the rule of certainty , and therefore of necessity they must only judg by the rule of charity ; till the lord himself shall come , and sit as a refiner and purifier of siver , and shall restore all things , as mal. 3. 3. & chap. 4. 5. 6. i mean , in spirit , first , to restore all things before that great and fearful day of the lord , for every mans work shall be tryed by fire , to wit , [ the fire of his spirit , ] of what sort it is ; and this day of the lord is near at hand ; the fire is a little already kindled , and the light thereof doth a little shine , but our gross combustibles are long in kindling , and there is much water cast upon them by such who should blow them to make them flame , yet such waters shall be dryed up to their prejudice and loss , though they may be saved themselves . it will be objected , that the promise runs both to abraham and his seed , and therefore the seal of circumcision must needs be applyed to all abrahams seed in their generations , till the coming of christ , who was that peculiar seed , in which all nations , yea all families of the earth should be blessed : but now the promise , and so the covenant runs , but to them and their seed that are of the faith of abraham , who , in that respect , is the father of us all ; they that are of faith , the same are the children of abraham ; but not the other . argu. but wicked men that have lived all their life long where the gospel hath been preached , and yet live not only as infidels , but rather like athists : how is the promise and covenant properly sealed unto them , or to their seed , save only so many of them as the lord our god shall call ? how shall it so , so much as seem 〈◊〉 , to apply it to their children , especially considering they do it but of custom , more then conscience , when they bring their children ? and this custom was , it may be , chiefly incur'd by the laws and canons of the church formerly in use , to which impulsive means was adjoyned ; so that if they had not brought them , they might , for ought they knew , have been excommunicate both out of church and markets , for so far the excommunications , after aggravations , were extended ; and how then shall we know their desires to have them baptized now are so much as cordial , much less can it be known that they are so much as meer historical believers , that continue so obstinately prophane after so much preaching , which they have long heard , and the gospel read , which all that were ordined to eternal life , believed at the first preaching of it in the primitive times , and how then shall we so much as think that they believe the scripture , or any such thing , as salvation in christ , either temporal or eternal ? ans . i answer , what know we but their children are elected , and are of those to which god will shew mercy : what know we , but some of their predecessors were such as loved god , and kept his commandments , and therefore the promise of shewing mercy unto thousands in them that so do is ground of hopes unto them , exod. 20. and besides , the promise runs but to the children of believers , that are of faith , for those only are the children of abraham ; and then it will necessarily follow , that so many of those children of believers that prove not believers , but prophane , must not have their children baptized , no more then the other , till they come to years , and do desire it themselves being believers also , which will condemn some independents practise , and enforce them to yield , either to the one or the other ; or at least wise , that if such as bring their children to be baptized , can but prove that any of their predecessors , even to a thousand generations , have loved god , and kept his commandments , they must bantize them , as well as such children of prophane parents , that were both born , and educated under faithful parents : for their profanness is so much the more gross , and obstinate , and incorrigible , by how much better means , and cause they have had of amendment of life ; and therefore grant the one , and you lose the other . object . but it will be objected , that all that were baptized in the primitive times , as act. 2. 41. were admitted likewise unto all ordinances , if at years of discretion , as act. 2. 41 , 42. it is said , that they that were baptized , as vers . 41. continued stedfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship ; and in breaking of bread , and in prayers , as vers . 42 , &c. conseq . now then it will necessarily follow , that none were admitted unto baptisme but that were likewise admittable unto all ordinances , if at years of discretion , and therefore none ought now to have their children baptized , but that are admitted one or both parents to the sacament of the supper . considering both ordinances are alike sacred , as appeares from these primitive examples . ans . i answer , true ; and so we ought to account them , in respect of administring them to any at years of discretion . and as for the childen of such ; if you grant the one , the other is confessed . but the difference still doth hold , as before , whether men should be admitted , and their children likewise , upon profession of faith meerly historical , or upon the holding forth of justifying faith , as visible beleever concerning which , i am of opinion as is before shewed , but desire that both parties , might in this respect , without offence , or hart-burnings each unto others , walk in love , and by the rule of charity , without judging or censuring each other , as every man thinketh , and is fully perswaded in his own heart , as before god , and not as following men though never so eminent in other respects ; for they are not infallible . and this is certain , that we read not in scripture , of any at all , that desired baptisme that were put put back ; and it is not safe to act on principles , that are not grounded there ; but on the other part , all that gladly received the word , without any more trial , even three thousand souls were added to the church in one day , act. 41. they had no time for any great trial of so many . but the the arguments being so strong on both sides , especially concerning baptisme , so that many godly and grave divines , and holy men , are fully perswaded in their very souls and consciences , that they ought to doe the quite contrary one to the other in this respect . it therefore followes , that neither of them ought to compel each other to their own principles nor ways herein , neither ought the magistate to authorize the one against the other , but leave them both at liberty in these respects , to be stricter or remisser , as they think they ought ; seeing a full , and clear , and satisfactory result , cannot easily be produced from sacred scripture , to which all must necessarily assent unto . for to impel unto either , by civil power , were manifest tyranny over the very consciences of the one , or the other ; and therefore ought not to be done ; but as they tender the wrath and displeasure of god , and will expect his judgement who having begun , will also make an end , deut. 32. 41 , to 44. & 1 sam. 3. 12 , 13 , 14 , & ps . 2. if such be of the seed of the jews ( spiritual jews i mean ) see ester 6. 13. for he is not a jew that is one outward , as rom. 2. 28 , 29. i have more particulars to propose betwixt them , tending to unity , concerning other points wherein they are at variance , which i could not conveniently include in one volumne ; as the case stands with me at this time : but i purpose ( god willing ) with all possible speed , to put them forth ; proposing them as ( in my apprehension ) an infallible result from sacred scriptures , clearly deduced ; by unanswerable arguments . 1. what kind of civil government was commended to the jews , by the lord himself , as the best form , or way of government for them to establish in their common-wealth , of all other , who were his peculiarly beloved people above all the nations under heaven . 2. how far forth the magistrate ought to compel by force and power , to the keeping of the law ; to wit , the moral law of god. and how far forth it is not lawful to use any force in that respect . 3. what is the best rule to observe , and use , and the most proper and warrantable , to assure an honourable , and liberal maintenance to all godly and faithful ministers of the gospel of christ . finis . a letter of many ministers in old england requesting the judgement of their reverend brethren in new england concerning nine positions written anno dom. 1637 : together with their answer thereunto returned, anno 1639 : and the reply made unto the said answer and sent over unto them, anno 1640 / by simeon ash, and william rathband. ashe, simeon, d. 1662. 1643 approx. 316 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 50 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2008-09 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a70435 wing l1573a estc r11945 12094848 ocm 12094848 53955 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a70435) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 53955) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 238:e59, no 20 or 111:6) a letter of many ministers in old england requesting the judgement of their reverend brethren in new england concerning nine positions written anno dom. 1637 : together with their answer thereunto returned, anno 1639 : and the reply made unto the said answer and sent over unto them, anno 1640 / by simeon ash, and william rathband. ashe, simeon, d. 1662. rathband, william, d. 1695. [12], 90 [i.e. 86] p. printed for thomas vnderhill ..., london : 1643. errata: p. [2]. reproduction of original in thomason collection, british library and harvard university libraries. marginal notes. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng church polity -early works to 1800. congregational churches -doctrines. new england -church history -17th century. great britain -church history -17th century. 2006-02 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2006-03 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-04 ali jakobson sampled and proofread 2007-04 ali jakobson text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a letter of many ministers in old england , requesting the judgement of their reverend brethren in new england concerning nine positions . written anno dom. 1637. together with their answer thereunto returned , anno 1639. and the reply made unto the said answer , and sent over unto them , anno 1640. now published ( by occasion mentioned in the epistle to the reader , following in the next page , ) upon the desire of many godly and faithfull ministers in and about the city of london , who love and seeke the truth . by simeon ash , and william rathband . 1 thes . 5. 21. prove all things ; hold fast that which is good . london , printed for thomas vnderhill , at the signe of the bible in great woodstreet . 1643. i have diligently perused this reply to the answer , of the ministers of new-england , to the nine positions which i have approved , and judge very necessarie , and seasonable to bee printed , and published , iuly the fifth , 1643. iames cranford rector of christophers london . errata . page 22. marg. read romae . p. 33 line 27 r. society . p 37. l. 21. r. of all true churches . p 37. l. 3● . r. parium . p. 47. l. 41 r. saith . p 48. l. 30. r. quin. p. 50. l. 31 r. ordinance . the faults escaped in the quotation p. 5● . in some copies , the reader is desired to correct by beza de presb. p 57 l. 7. r. is the same . p 61 l 25. r. objection . p. 61. l. 28. r. were dispensed . p 64 l ●4 r. which without . p. 67. l. 14. r parium . p. 67 l. 29 ▪ r. therefore to them , p. 6● . l. 28. r. with christ . to the reader . good reader , vpon the receipt of the answer returned unto the nine positions , master ball moved by the request of brethren , drew up this reply , which upon perusall and joynt approbation , was directed unto the reverend elders of the severall churches in new england . the reply sent miscarrying in the hand , to which it was committed , though both letters and printed bookes trusted in the same hand were delivered : hereupon another copie was from new england desired , and accordingly prepared in the yeare following . in the meane time , the answer being tendered to the presse , it was judged more meete to keepe the reply in readinesse to attend the publishing of the answer , then to part with it in the other way . this intelligence was the last yeare conveyed into new england , since which time , there hath been an expectation to see that in print , which now is sent abroad to open view . by this relation it is manifest who are voluntiers , and who are pressed to come forth as defendants in these controversies . these differences betwixt the loving brethren of old england and new , had not been made thus notorious , if some who cry up the church way in new england , as the only way of god , had not been forward , to blow them abroad in the world . but surely the providence of god is remarkeable in bringing these questions into debate at this time . when the ministers of the gospell from all the counties in the kingdome are called together by both houses of parliament , to consult about the healing of our breaches , which are very many and dangerous : the copie of this reply being committed to our custodie we are necessitated to appeare in the publication of it : yet we shall preface nothing concerning the treatise it selfe , because our known respects to the reverend and judicious author will tender us partiall , and our testimony can adde no credit to his works which withall indifferent readers will plead sufficiently for their own acceptance . if this discourse shall adde any discovery of light unto them , who desire a sound judgement in the controversies here agitated , our end is obtained , and our prayers answered , who are . thy servants in and for the truth , simeon ash , william rathband . the letter of those ministers in england , who requested to know the judgement of their brethren in new england , in nine positions , wherein the reasons of this their request , are truly reported . ( reverend and beloved brethren ) whiles we lived together in the same kingdome , we professed the same faith , joyned in the same ordinances , laboured in the worke of god to gaine soules unto his kingdome , and maintained the puritie of worship against corruptions , both on the right hand and on the left . but since your departure into new england , we heare ( and partly beleeve it ) that divers have embraced certaine vain opinions , such as you disliked formerly , and we judge to be groundlesse and unwarrantable . as that a stinted forme of prayer , and set liturgie is unlawfull ; that it is not lawfull to joyne in prayer , or to receive the sacrament , where a stinted liturgie is used . 3. that the children of godly and approved christians , are not to be raptized , untill their parents bee set members of some perticular congregation . 4. that the parents themselves , though of approved piety are not to be received to the lords supper , untill they bee admitted as set members . 5. that the power of excommunication , &c. is so in the body of the church , that what the major part shall allow , that must be done , though the pastors and governors , and part of the assembly be of another minde , and peradventure , upon more substantiall reasons . 6. that none are to be admitted as set members , but they must promise , not to depart , or remove unlesse the congregation will give leave . 7. that a minister is so a minister to a particular congregation , that if they dislike him unjustly , or leave him he ceaseth to be a minister . 8. that a minister cannot performe any ministeriall act in another congregation . 9. that members of one congregation may not communicate in another . these and other such like ( which we omit to reckon up ) are written and reported to be the common tenents in new england , which are received with great applause , maintained with great confidence , and applauded , as the only church way , wherein the lord is to be worshipped . and letters from new england have so taken with divers in many parts of this kingdome , that they have left our assemblies because of a stinted liturgie , and excommunicated themselves from the lords supper , because such as are not debarred from it . and being turned aside themselves , they labour to ensnare others , to the griefe of the godly , the scandall of religion , the wounding of their owne soules ( if they did advisedly consider the matter ) and great advantage of them , that are wily to espy , and ready to make use of all advantages to prejudice the truth . ( beloved brethren ) if you stood in our places , we are well assured it would be no small griefe unto you , to heare and see the people led afide to the disgrace of the gospell , upon weake and groundlesse imaginations , and in rash and inconsiderate zeale to deale with that which is of god ▪ as if it were of man. and if it be to us griefe of heart to heare that you have changed from that truth which you did professe , and embrace that for truth which in former times upon sound grounds you did condemne as erroneous , we hope you will not be offended . you know how oft it hath beene objected , that non-conformists in practice are separatists in heart but that they goe crosse to their own positions , or smother the truth for sinister ends . they of the separation boast that they stand upon the non-conformist's grounds . a vainglorious flourish and sleight pretence . but both these are much countenanced by your sudden change if you be changed , as it is reported . how shall your brethren bee able to stand up in the defence of their innocencie and the uprightnesse of their cause , when your example and opinion shall be cast in their dish ? must they leave you now , with whom they have held society ? or will you plead for separation , which you have condemned as rash and inconsiderate ? you know that thy who have run this way have fallen into manifold divisions , and may not you justly feare , lest the same befall you ? some warnings you have had already , and have you not cause to feare every day more and more ? errour is very fruitfull and will spread apace . a cracke in the foundation may occasion a wide breach in the building , where there will not be means , or mind to amend it . experience every day may tutour us herein . but to let passe all inconveniences , our request in all meeknesse and love is , that if these , or any of the forementioned opinions be indeed your tenants you would be pleased to take a second review of your grounds , and send us your strongest reasons that have swayed you in these matters : and if we shall find them upon due examination to be such as will carry weight , we shall be ready to give you the right hand of fellowship ; if otherwise you shall receive our just and modest animadversions in what we conceive you have erred from the truth . you will not judge , if we cannot apprehend the strength of your grounds , it is because we love not the truth , or bee carryed with by-respects ( though these conceipts prevaile too much : ) such rigid and harsh censures , cannot lodge in meeke and humble breasts . weighty reasons promote the truth not unadvised judging . you your selves have judged that to be errour , which now you take to be truth when yet you were not blinded with by-respects , nor hudwinked your eyes , that you might not see the light . and if you have just warrant from god to pull downe what you have builded , and to build what you have pulled downe , we desire you would lovingly and maturely impart it ▪ for as yet we have scene none , which we are not ready to prove , and shew by the rule of truth to be too weake to carry any burthen . we adore with you the fulnesse of the scripture , and we know the counsell of the lord shall stand : if you can shew that you walke in the wayes of god , we shall heartily rejoyce to walke with you : but if you have turned aside , we shall earnestly desire that you would be pleased seriously to consider the matter , and speedily reforme , what is out of order . thus not doubting of your favourable interpretation of this our motion , for the preventing of distraction , maintenance of peace , and searching out of the truth , whereby we may be directed to live to the praise of god the good of his people , and comfort of our soules , beseeching god to lead and guide us into all truth and holinesse , and keepe us blamelesse untill his glorious appearance , we rest your loving brethren . an epistle written by the elders of the churches in new-england , to those godly ministers fore-mentioned that sent over the positions . reverend and beloved brethren : in these remote coasts of the earth , whereunto the good hand of god hath brought us , as we doe with much comfort of heart call to mind the many gracious blessings , which both with you , and from you , we injoyed in our christian and holy communion , ( the memory and fruit whereof we hope shall never be blotted out ) so we have also seen cause to looke back to our former administrations there , and to search and trie our wayes ; that wherein soever we have formerly gone astray , we might judge our selves for it before the lord : and that seeing now god hath set before us an open doore of libertie , wee might neither abuse our libertie in the gospel , to runne out into any groundlesse unwarrantable courses , nor neglect the present opportunitie to administer ( by the helpe of christ ) all the holy ordinances of god , according to the patterne set before us in the scripture ; in our native countrey , when we were first called to the ministery , many of us tooke some things to be indifferent and lawfull , which in after-times we saw to be sinfull , and durst not continue in the practise of them there ; afterwards some things that we bare as burthens , that is , as things inexpedient , though not utterly unlawfull ; we have no cause to retain and practise the same things here , which would not have been not onely inexpedient , but unlawfull : such things as a man may tollerate when he cannot remove them , hee cannot tollerate without sinne , when he may remove them ; besides some things we practised there ( which wee speak to our shame and griefe ) which we never took into serious consideration whether they were lawfull , and expedient or no , but took them for granted , and generally received ; not onely by the most reformed churches , but by the most godly and judicious servants of god amongst them ; which neverthelesse when we came to weigh them in the ballance of the sanctuarie , we could not find sufficient warrant in the word to receive them , and establish them here : of one of these three kinds will these our present practises appeare to be , which you call our new opinions , or , innovations here ; except it be some few of them , which though they have been reported to you to be our judgements and practises , yet are indeed farre from us : the partieulars are too many , and too weightie to give you account of them , and the ground of our proceedings about them in a letter . but to give you ( if it be the will of god ) the better satisfaction , we have sent you a short treatise touching each particular , that according to your desire you might understand from us how farre we do acknowledge any of these tenents , and upon what ground , hoping that according to your promise , if upon due examination you shall find any weight in them , you will give us the right hand of fellowship . but if otherwise , you will send us your just and faithfull animadversions , and we doe not suspect your loves to the truth , or your sincere speaking according to your conscience in the sight of god. neither taxe we you as siding from the truth with by-respects , whereof you complain , verily we abhorre such rash , harsh , and presumptuous notoriousnesse , we see as much cause to suspect the integritie of our own hearts , as yours ; and so much the more , as being more privie to the deceitfulnesse of our own hearts then to yours . and we cannot but with much thankfulnesse of heart acknowledge the many rich precious treasures of his grace , wherewith the lord hath furnished sandrie of you above your brethren , which causeth us with great reverence to accept , and receive what further light god may be pleased to impart unto us by you . but as we have beleeved , so have we hitherto practised , and so have most of us spoken this our answer to your particulars , most of us we may say , because there wants not some brethren amongst us who proceed further , even to looke at all set formes of prayer invented by men of another age or congregation , and prescribed to their brethren to be read out of a book for the prayers of the church , as images , or imaginations of men , forbidden in the second commandement ; but as we leave them to their libertie of their own judgements without prejudice , so do we also concurre with the rest of them , so farre as we all goe in bearing witnesse against any set formes , or the corruptions in them ; in dispatching whereof , we have been the more slow because it behoved us first to inquire into , and to settle some controversies amongst our selves , before we could well attend to entertaine discourse about forraigne questions which do not so neerely concerne our present estate and practise . besides your letters being sent to the ministers of the churches , and some of us dwelling farre asunder , it was not an easie thing for all of us often to meet together to consider of these questions , much lesse to resolve upon one just answer . but having at length ( by the assistance of god ) brought our answers to this issue , we commend it to the blessing of the lord , and in him to your christian , and judicious consideration ; where if all things bee found safe , and duely warranted from scripture grounds ; do you also as seemeth vigilant watchmen of the lords flock , and faithfull witnesses to god ; if any thing seeme doubtfull to you , consider and weigh it very well before you reject it : if any thing appeare to be unsound , and dissonant from the word ( which we for our parts cannot discerne ) we shall willingly attend to what further light god may send unto us by you : in the meane while wee intreat you in the lord , not to suffer such apprehensions to lodge in your minds , which you intimate in your letters ; as if we here justified the wayes of riged separation , which sometimes amongst you we have formerly borne witnesse against : and so build againe the things we have destroyed ; you know they separate from your congregations , as no churches ; from the ordinances dispensed by you as meere . antichristian , and from your selves as no visible christians . but wee professe unfainedly , we separate from the corruptions which we conceive to be left in your churches , and from such ordinances administred therein as we feare are not of god , but of men ; and for your selves , we are so farre from separating as from no visible christians , as that you are under god in our hearts ( if the lord would suffer it ) to live and die together ; and we looke at sundrie of you as men of that eminent growth in christianitie , that if there by any visible christians under heaven , amongst you are the men , which for these many yeeres have been written in your foreheads ( holinesse to the lord ) which we speake not to prejudice any truth which our selves are here taught and called to professe , but we still beleeve though personall christians may be eminent in their growth of christianitie : yet churches had still need to grow from apparent defects to puritie ; and from reformation to reformation , age after age , till the lord have utterly abolished antichrist with the breath of his mouth , and the brightnesse of his comming to the full and cleare revelation of all his holy truth ; especially touching the ordering of his house and publick worship ; as a pledge of this our estimation of you , and sincere affection to you , we have sent you these answers to your demand , and shall be readie , by the help of christ , to receive back againe from you , wise , and just , and holy advertisements in the lord. now the lord god , and father of our lord jesus christ , your lord and ours ; lead us all unto all truths , purge out all leaven out of his churches , and keepe us blamelesse and harmlesse in his holy faith and feare , to his heavenly kingdome , through him that hath loved us ; in whom we rest , your very loving brethren , the elders of the churches in new-england . reverend and dearely beloved brethren , it is not to be doubted but while we live here , we shall have just cause to search and try our ways , look back upon former courses , and call things done to more strict examination . for being over-clouded with ignorance , compassed about with infirmities , and beset with many temptations to sinne , knowing what we know best , but darkly and in part , no marvell , if in many things we offend ignorantly , of frailty for want of due consideration , rashly mistaking errour for truth , condemning truth for errour , suspecting evill without cause , and not suspecting where is just reason , drawing erronious conclusions from sound principles , and maintaining truths upon weak grounds ; so that in examination of our wayes , and endevours of their reformation wee had need to looke warily , that wee turn not to the right hand or to the left , for in the one we add to the word of god , as well as in the oother , and of our selves are apt to strike aside to both . a loose conscience will be profane , a tender , scrupulous . it stands us therefore upon to have our selves in suspition , in as much as experience teacheth that many have swerved from the path of sound peace and comfort on each hand . wherefore ( beloved brethren ) if since your comming into new england , upon serious review of former actions you have discovered any truths heretofore not taken notice of , we shal be so far from rejecting them because of your former judgment and practice , that we shall heartily desire to know and imbrace the same with you , and blesse god for you as the happy instruments of his glory , our instruction & the advancement of the truth . but if the discoveries be of the like nature with the positions mentioned in the letter ; as before , so still , we conceive them to be new opinions , and not warranted by scripture , which is the true antiquity . opinions we say , not practices , for not changing your opinion , you might lawfully alter your practice ; nay , what you did tolerate formerly as a burthen , in case not free , you might well forgoe being at your liberty . your judgement being the same , you might use your liberty in forbearance of a set liturgie , and yet retaine the same judgement of a stinted liturgie , that you had before ; you might forbeare for a time upon speciall reason ( such as present state and occasion might suggest ) to receive to the sacrament approved christians , not set members of a particular congregation ; as some brethren do ) who yet dare not think it unlawfull to communicate with such in the act of worship , or deem it just and right altogether to debar them , as having no right nor title to those priviledges of the church . it is your opinions whereto we had respect , not simply your practice . it never entred into us to perswade you to a set liturgy , much lesse to complain that you had not accepted ours . but that all stinted liturgies should be condemned as devised worship , and so condemned as that none may lawfully be present at , or pertake of the sacraments administred in a stinted or devised forme , this wee called a new opinion . neither do we mention it because we knew it to be the private opinion of some brethren among you , whom we had left to the liberty of their owne judgment , so far as the maintenance of the truth , and a just call did not ingage us : but because it was cryed up , and advanced with all diligence , and endeavour of some among us standing affected england-ward , as if a chief point of holinesse consisted in separation . you know how great a fire a little sparkle kindles . and seeing this distraction and rent had its originall , growth and continuance from some brethren in those parts , or affected to that way , when in loving and friendly manner we could neither receive grounds at home for our conviction , nor procure just satisfaction to the contrary ; what could wee doe lesse then call upon you joyntly to know your judgment , and either by sound proof to be by you convinced ( if happily you should approve their separation ( which we esteem groundlesse , rash , unlawfull , and prejudiciall to outward peace ) or being backed by a testimony of its dislike from you , we might the better be both incouraged , and furnished to endevour the quenching of that fire which was kindled but in too many places , in other perticulars also , wee conceive , you goe beyond commission given of god : granting them authority to whom god hath not committed it , debarring others from the priviledge of the sacraments , who have title thereto by the covenant of grace . your love in that you were pleased to signifie first your kinde and respective acceptance of our letter , and now also to send us an answer thereto , we acknowledge it with all thankfulnesse , and shall endevour ( through the grace of god ) to return like affection in truth of heart , if in measure we fall short . of your respect to us in particular , we make no question , your expressions are beyond that we could expect , as also what we dare own . but we humbly beseech the lord to direct , uphold , and guide us , that in some measure we may walk worthy of our vocation , and approv our selves faithfull to your consciences . it was one end of our writing to be satisfied in this point , whether you approve the ways of separation ( whereof wee complain ) and their courses who laboured with all their might , ( when they conceived hope to be heard ) to perswade therunto . against which ( if we knew your judgment ) you testified among us . you know they that separate are not all of one straine and temper . some deny all communion with us publick and private , some admit of private , but deny all publick , and some joyne in prayer before , and after sermon , as also preaching of the word ( because in their esteeme , this may be done without communion in a church-way ) but refuse to partake of the sacraments . all which separations wee judge uncharitable , contrary to the commandement of christ , and have ever thought that you ( whilst with us ) and we were of one minde herein . if of late we have conceived fears of some of you ( deere brethren ) as leaning too much to what formerly you disliked , we beseech you weigh what urgent and pressing reasons forced us thereunto , and we shall most gladly ( wee heartily desire you to rest assured ) lay hold of every line and syllable , that may tend to dislodge such apprehensions . for as we conceive , the dispute to be unreasonably moved , the rent offensive , the opinions themselves prejudiciall to the cause of god , and the advancers thereof to have passed the limits prescribed by god ; so wee shall esteem it an inestimable blessing , if ( now what hinders being removed ) wee might joyn with one heart and soule , in one way of god to promote his glory , and seek the good of his church and people . we trust in the lord , we should not draw back in any course wherein wee may see the lord going before us , nor be an offence to any to keep the lords way ; wee seek the truth , and are perswaded it is the cause of god which we defend : we plead for communion with the churches of christ , no further then they hold communion with christ , still desiring to keepe the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace , with your selves and all others , who walke in the right way of truth , peace and comfort . how the lord may be pleased to deale with us , or dispose of us wee know not ( his blessed will be done . ) but of this we are resolved , through his grace , not willingly to raise trouble or dissention among you , if through ignorance or infirmity we shall not so fall in , as to be of one minde with you in these matters . and here we desire you to consider that in these particulars you dissent as much one from another as we dissent from you , and that wherein we dissent from you ( and perhaps from the lesser part of you ) you dissent from the judgement and practice of all reformed churches . this wee speake not to prejudice your cause , but to intreat your serious re-examination of what you have sent us , and this tryall thereof , by the touchstone of the word . for if we mistake not , in many things it will not abide the test . you have written in great love and tendernesse , that your positions might be so scanned , and wee shall endeavour with such affection to try all things , and hold fast that which is good . and now ( beseeching the guidance of the spirit ) with your leave , wee shall endeavour to deale fully and plainly , as the nature of the cause requireth , intreating you impartially to consider the grounds whereupon we , go and weigh what wee shall say in the ballance of the sanctuary . the lord of his rich mercy in jesus christ , direct us in discerning what is right and pleasing in his sight , cast offences out of the church , close up rents and divisions , reveal his truth more and more , set up and mayntain the purity of his own ordinances , unite the hearts of his people to the love and feare of his holy name , teach us self-deniall , and keep us blamelesse to the comming of the lord jesus christ . amen . i position . that a stinted forme of prayer and set liturgie is unlawfull . answ . before we proceed to declare our selves concerning this position : it will be needfull that some thing be premised , for the explication of the terms thereof . we suppose , 1 by a liturgy and forme of prayer , you mean not a forme of private prayers composed for the helpe and direction of weaker christians : but the system or body of publike prayers generally used in the english parishes , compiled for the churches use by other men not infallibly guided by god , to be said or read out of a book by their ministers as the churches prayers . and that this is your meaning , may appeare from your letter it self , wherein you complain that divers in many parts of that kingdome have left their assemblies , because of a stinted liturgy . now we know not of any other stinted liturgy from which the people do absent themselves , but onely that which is in use in the english churches . for as for a forme of prayer in generall , wee conceive your meaning cannot be of that . for it is evident that many preachers constantly use one set form of prayer of their own making before their sermons , with whom the people refuse not to joyn . 2 by stinted and set , you mean such prayers , as are so imposed upon the churches and ministers , as that they are limited to that very form of words expressed in the book without addition , diminution , or alteration ; for that liturgy and forme among you , is in this sense set and stinted . 3 by unlawfull , you mean that we looking at that form , as swerving from the rule ; neither dare first practice it our selves , nor secondly approve the use of it by others . this being the true state of the question , so far as it appears to us , from the letter . we answer , 1 for our own practice , the churches here doe not use any stinted forme of prayer and set liturgy , for these and other such reasons . 1 because we finde no necessity of any stinted liturgy to be used among us , by vertue of any divine precept . and seeing the commission of the apostles limited them , to ●each men to observe and do onely what christ did command them in matters of this nature , math. 28. 20. who are we and what are our churches , that we should presume above this commission ? and , we hope , it will not be offensively taken by any godly brethren , that we stand fast in the liberty wherewith christ hath made us free in this , as well as in all other things . secondly , because the lawfulnesse of set forms and stinted liturgies is questioned and doubted of by many faithfull servants of god : whereas for church-officers to edifie the churches by their own gifts , as well in praying as in preaching , all sorts without controversie grant it to be lawfull . now spirituall prudence guideth believers , when two ways are set before them , one doubtfull though ventured on by some , the other certainly safe and good , though neglected by many , to choose that which is safe , declining the other . thirdly , because primitive paterns of all the churches of god in their best times ( when as touching this point they kept the rule in their eye ) whether jewish before christ , or christian above a 100 yeers after christ , yield not the least footstep to shew us another safe way to walk in , then this which we have chosen . as for after times towards the end of the second , and beginning of the third century , we know how far the churches were then degenerated and declined from the first purity ; neither do we marvell at it , seeing in the apostles time the mystery of iniquity began to work , and it was then foretold , that the power of godlinesse would be in aftertimes exchanged for empty formes . in which respect , we look not at them as our guides neither in this , nor other particulars not warranted by the rule , herein following the advise of cyprian , who himself saw the corruption of those times , non est attendendum quid aliquis ante nos faciendum putaverit , sed quid qui ante omnes est christus fecerit & faciendum praeceperit . to conclude , seeing our christian liberty freeth us from binding our selves to any religious observances , whereunto the written word doth not bind us . and seeing spirituall prudence directs us to choose those ways , which on all hands are confessed to be s●fe , avoiding those that be doubtfull and hazardous . and seeing it will not be safe for us , needlesly to swerve from the constant practice of all churches that are recorded in scripture , and there held forth as a cloud of witnesses for us to follow in matters of this nature , wee therefore may not , doe not , dare not use set forms of prayers and stinted liturgies in these churches . more particularly , in that we doe not use that forme of prayer and stinted liturgy , which is in use among your selves : these and such other like reasons have induced us thereunto . 1 the many and just exceptions whereunto that liturgy is lyable both for matter and manner ; for the proofe whereof wee referre you to those faithfull servants of god , who have gone before us in witnessing against the same : amongst others to master cartwright , and the abridgment . 2 in as much as that liturgy was never commanded of god , and hath been greatly abused to idolatry and superstition , and is not of any necessary use , and therefore we are affraid to bring it into the worship of god , as knowing the jealousie of the lord , in matters of this nature ; exod. 20 , and how strictly hee commandeth his people , that all monuments and remnants of idolatry and superstition should be abolished from among them , deut. 5. 25 , 26. exod. 23. 13. esay 30. 2● . 2 cor. 6. 17. in which respect the holy ghost hath greatly commended iacob , david , iehu hezechia and iosiah for taking away the remembrance of such things , gen. 35. 2 , 4. psal . 16. 4. 2 king 10. 26 , 27. & 18. 4. & 2● . all the chapter . and where other kings of iudah came short of the like zeale , the scripture notes it as a blemish in them that the high places were not taken away , albeit the people did not sacrifice in them to false gods , but onely to the lord , 2 chron. 15. 17. & 20. 33. & 33. 17. yea , moreover , it appeareth by the scripture , that somethings that had a good originall and use ( if they be not still necessary and commanded of god ) are unlawfull when once they are knowne to be defiled by idolatry , and abused to it , 2 king. 18. 4. hos . 2. 16 , 17. as the brazen serpent was at the first an institution though but temporary : but when the children of israel burned incense to it , hezechiah , is commended for breaking it in pieces , and the lord witnesseth of him that he did that which was right in the sight of the lord , and according to his commandement , which he commanded moses , 2 king. 18. 3 , 6. how much more in the like case ought other things to be removed , which never were commanded of god , but onely were devised by men ? and that that liturgy hath been superstitiously abused , may be cleer to any that shall consider that it is the same for substance that was used in the days of popery . and therefore when the papists in devonshire and cornwall , had made a commotion and rebellion upon the change of religion , in the days of king edward the sixth . it was told them by the king , for the pacifying of them : that it was the self-same service in english , which had been before in latine : and if the service of the church was good in latine , it remayneth good in english , for nothing is altered : fox acts and monuments , edward 6. and pope pius the fifth did see so little variation in it from the latine service , that had been formerly used in that kingdome , that he would have ratified it by his authority , if q. elizabeth would have so received it . and many of the people put such holinesse in it , that they think god is not rightly worshipped , nor his sabbath well observed , nor the sacraments sufficiently administred , if there be no reading of that service . and others put such holinesse and necessity in it , that they preferre it before gods holy ordinance of preaching the word . in so much as the ministers are in the danger of being called in question , and of being censured , if they doe not read that liturgy every lords day without omitting any part thereof , either in respect of preaching or otherwise . 3 in regard of the many wofull scandals , and dangerous consequences of using that liturgie , of which we suppose you are not ignorant . to mention but two , viz. the hardning of papists who are imboldned to think better of their own breviaries , masse-books , portuisses , seeing that liturgie hath bin extracted out of those books , and rather fetched from them then from the forms used in any of the reformed churches . 2 the conntenancing and establishing of an unlearned idol ministery , of not-preaching curates , non-residents , pluralities , &c. in whose skirts is to be found the blood of so many mens souls living and dying in their sins , while they ignorantly content themselves with , and harden themselves in some empty forms of religion and blinde devotion , which are begotten and cherished chiefely by such prayers and ministers . neither is there lesse scandall hereby ( we meane not onely taken but given ) then by the eating of an idolathite , in the idols temple condemned by the apostle 1 cor. 8. 7 10. for if the eating of an idolathite by him that had knowledge , and knew that an idol was nothing , and that all meats were lawfull , did imbolden others to honour the idol , and therefore was a scandall given , so also it is in this case . 4 seeing that booke is so imposed as that the minister in reading of it , is limited to the very words set downe without any diminution , addition , or alteration ; therefore we dare not use it . for 1 the lord himselfe hath not limited his people to his own formes and therefore we see not , how it can be lawfull to be limited to other mens formes ; for in thus doing we should subject our selves to the exercise of such an authority and power of the prelates , as in this case puts forth a stronger act of limiting power then christ himselfe , who doth not limit us to those formes , which himselfe hath set downe in scripture : for though we acknowledge the lords prayer and other formes set down in scripture , may be lawfully used as prayers ( due cautions being observed ) yet there is not a limitation lying upon the churches in the use of those prayers . and therefore we do not find that the apostles ever used that form taught by christ in those very words , much lesse limited themselvs to it , when they prayed , nor did they teach the churches so to doe . 2 if the lord would not have us limit our selves in our own forms , whiles we are exercising our own gifts ( which he hath specially sanctified to edify his church act. 6. 4. eph. 4. 8. 1 cor. 12. 7. ) least we should quench or at least straiten his spirit in prayer , 1 thes . 5. 19. would he then have us limited to other mens forms , which have not beene in like sort sanctified of god , but will rather quench or straiten the spirit of god , whiles we are so limited to them ? 3 the entertainment of this form hath been a manifest snare unto the churches who upon the same ground on which they have received this forme into the desks have beene limited to others in the pulpit , by meanes whereof the poore church of christ hath bin wholly deprived of the publike use of the ministers gifts in prayer , and the spirit of prayer in the ministers in publike , hath beene greatly restrained . as for our judgement concerning the practice of others , who use this liturgie in our native countrie , we have alwayes beene unwilling to expresse our mindes there against unlesse we have been necessarily called thereunto , and at this time we thinke it not expedient to expresse our selves any further concerning this matter , as loath to intermeddle with the affaires of other churches , but contenting our selves with , and blessing the lord for those liberties which we , by the mercie of god , do here enjoy , reserving also due reverence to the judgements of our beloved brethren and deere countreymen , who may concerning this matter be otherwise minded . reply . this position cannot beare that meaning which you give it , if you take it according , o our mindes , and the plain construction of the words . we never questioned why you made not use of a stinted liturgy , much lesse why you did not wholly and in every part tye your selves unto , and approve of that forme in use amongst us . you might well thinke we had little to doe to put forth such a demand , viz. whether you thinke it lawfull to approve in others and practice your selves , what swerveth from the rule , and we thinke it strange you should give our words such a meaning . the thing we craved resolution in was , whether in your judgements all stinted and set formes of prayer and liturgies be unlawfull . the reason hereof was because in writings from new-england , we had seene all set liturgies , and set formes of prayer condemned as devised worship which god would not accept , and partaking in the sacraments of the supper in our assemblies , therefore disallowed , because administred in a stinted liturgie , which things were received with such likeing among some brethren with us , and by them imparted and recommended to others , that they occasioned that rent and distraction whereof we complain . it is true , the people among us separate from our forme of prayer or liturgy , but the reason hereof is because it is stinted , not because this or that or ours in particular . you confesse you want not some brethren among you who look at all set formes of prayer invented by one of another age or congregation , and prescribed to their brethren , to be read out of a booke for the prayers of the church , as images and imaginations of man forbidden in the second commandement , and that the lawfulnesse of liturgies , and set formes is questioned and doubted of by many faithfull servants of god , such also as come over occasionally , who withdraw themselvs from the sacraments in the congregation , doe it on this pretence , that a stinted liturgie is a humane invention . and if we examine the reasons brought against stinted formes and liturgies , we shall finde them to strike at all formes and liturgies though devised by men of the same age and congregation , and to be used but now and then , or but once on set purpose , and that either in publike or in private , as elsewhere we may have occasion to shew . you say it is evident , many preachers constantly use a set forme of prayer of their own making before their sermons with whom the people refuse not to joyne ; and you know ( we doubt not ) that such set formes are disliked also . and if the grounds be examined ( in our understanding ) they make as much against the one as the other . view but the reasons why you admit not a stinted liturgie and forme of prayer , and see whether the two last will not in the same terms directly conclude gainst both . but what ever is to be thought herein , or whether mens practises agree with their opinions we now dispute not . this is plaine and manifest , that mens opinions are to be judged by their expresse words and reasons , not by their practises . the brownists ( as they are commonly called ) can separate from no stinted liturgie amongst us , but that which is in use , and for ought we know they may joyne with their owne pastors , though they oft use the same forme of prayer in whole or in part , in thanksgiving before meat , or in prayer before sermon , or the like . and yet their opinion is that all stinted liturgies and set formes of prayer be unlawfull , humane inventions forbidden by the second commandement . but if any thing had beene left doubtfull in the letter , that it might be strained to another sence , either because we were short in expression , or many of you not informed in the passages which gave occasion to the question , it is well knowne what the words meane in ordinary construction . and we doubt not but many brethren among you , might and could fully informe you of our meaning that there need no such straining to find it out . that which followeth in your answer to the position ( as you interpret it ) wee passe over , because it is not to the matter intended . and wee are as unwilling to trouble you with the affaires of other churches taking you from your owne weightie occasions , as you are unwilling to be interrupted . onely in regard of promise , and because plaine dealing serves to maintaine love , we thinke good to advertise you these few things . 1 that your reasons why you accept not of a stinted lyturgie be ambiguously propounded , for sometimes you plead onely for your libertie herein , and that a stinted forme is not necessary , and sometime you speake so , as they that looke at stinted lyturgies , as images forbidden in the second commandement will easily draw your words to their meaning . 2 the reasons you bring against a set forme of prayer or liturgie doe hold as strong against a set forme of catechisme confession and profession of faith , blessing , baptizing and singing of psalmes . 3 wee have not called upon you at this time to witnesse for , or against the corruptions in the communion-booke . this you fall upon by straining the sense of our demands contrary to the true meaning thereof . the reasons which you bring against it , we cannot approve them all ; the exceptions which have bin taken both from the matter and manner thereof we know : but to esteeme the whole for some corruptions found therein , a monument of idolatry , that we have not learned . the argument in the abridgement which is used against conformity to the ceremonies did not in their judgement who were authors of the booke hold against the lyturgie , of which opinion we are also . 4 if these reasons be intended onely to shew why you receive not our forme of administration , it is that which ( we are perswaded you know ) we never required of you . if to disallow the use of the booke amongst us altogether in things lawfull , good and pertinent , they will not hold weight . 5 you are generally ( as you say ) loath to meddle with the affaires of other churches , unlesse you have been necessarily called thereunto . but when some upon the request ( as we suppose ) of private friends , and others out of their zeale and forwardnesse have laboured to draw many to separation from the sacrament , because ministred in a stinted lyturgie : wee cannot apprehend any just ground of this apologie . the rent is wide , and some brethren had their hands deepe therein , which made us at this present to crave your judgements , and the reasons thereof to make up the breach . 6 i. d. objecteth to master p. that his manner of preaching was disorderly in carrying that matter , he speakes of , to the classes , before he had declared to the church the equity of his refusing the ministers desired by the scriptures . and may not we with like reason object , that this manner of proceeding is disorderly in seeking to draw men to separation , because of stinted liturgie , before you had shewed to us or other brethren ( whom it may concerne ) by scripture , or reasons drawne from thence , that a stinted liturgie was unlawfull ? but of this wee may intreat more fully elsewhere . ii. position . that it is not lawfull to joyne in prayer , or receive the sacraments where a stinted liturgie is used , or as we conceive your meaning to be in this , as in the former question viz. where , and when that stinted liturgie is used . answer . it seemeth by this your letter , the ground of this position hath beene the separation of divers from your assemblies , because of a stinted liturgie : and we are not ignorant of the rigid separation of divers people , who withdraw themselves from an able faithfull ministry , as no ministry of christ , and from their godly congregations as no churches of christ ; because of some corruptions from which ( through want of light , not love of the truth ) they are not throughly cleansed . against which practise we have ever witnessed . as for our judgement concerning the position it selfe , we would promise two things ; first concerning the persons reading this liturgie , which may be either an ungodly or unable minister , or an able and a godly . secondly , concerning the liturgie it selfe , which may be either of the whole or some select prayers , which may be conceived to be the least offensive . now if the question be of joyning in prayer with , and when that whole liturgie is used , or where that which is used , is read by an unable and ungodly minister , we then see not how it can be lawfull to joyne in prayer in such cases ; for 1 the prayers of the minister are not his private prayers , but the publike prayers of the whole assembly , whose mouth he is to god. and when the prayers offered up by the minister , as a living holy , and acceptable service to god , are not through humane frailty , but otherwise for matter and manner corrupt , wee see not what warrant any one hath to joyne with such prayers , mal. 1. 13. 14. 2 when men ioyne therein with an insufficient ministry , they doe not only countenance them in their place and office , whom the lord hath rejected from being his priests . hos . 4. 6. but also set up those idolls and means of worship to edifie themselves by , which god never appointed in his holy word ezeck . 11. 17. but if the question be of joyning in some few select prayers read by an able and painfull minister out of that booke as on the one side wee are very tender of imputing sin to the men that so joyne : so on the other side , we are not without feare , least that such joyning may be found to be unlawfull : unlesse it may appeare that the ministers with whom the people have communion in reading those prayers doe neither give any scandall by reading of them nor give unlawfull honour to a thing abused to idolatry , and superstition , nor doe suffer themselves to be sinfully limited in the reading of them . reply . sufficient hath been spoken of the meaning of the position and the grounds thereof and if we have not mistaken your judgment & practice both , you have born witnesse against both that you call the rigid seperation , and this more moderate also ; and we humbly wish , the moderate doe not degenerate into the rigid ere long . it is very strange , if they take not great incouragement upon your grounds . the truth of our ministery , churches , ordinances , and calling is questioned , and where men will stay the lord knoweth , and what more common then that our liturgie is unlawfull , because it is the devise of man ; the author ( or publisher at least ) of a letter against our service booke beginneth with such like distinction . against this prayer-booke ( saith he ) divers have pleaded in a different manner . first some arguments are proper to the separatists qua tales , viz. that it is offered in a false church ; 2. by a false minister ; 3. in the behalfe of the subjects of the kingdome of antichrist . these are properly theirs , being the grounds whereupon they make a totall separation from all the churches in this land , as no churches of christ . these i approve not , yet note them that yee may see upon what different grounds , the same position is maintained by severall persons , and that yee may be delivered from the prejudice , which hinders many from receiving those truths , because they feare the reproach of brownisme . secondly , there are other grounds which are common to all that plead for the the puritie of christs ordinances , and which doe not necessarily inferre such separation , but only serve to shew the unlawfulnesse of that practise , and our communicating therein . thus the epistle wherein the same distinction of separation is noted : but how truly , let the indifferent judge . if none must be counted separatists , but such as have pleaded against the booke of common prayer as unlawfull , because offered up in a false church , &c. then are there none such in the world , that we have knowne or heard of : for it is apparent they cast us off as no churches of christ , because our service is a humane devise , will-worship , idolatry ; and not on the contrary , that our service is will-worship , or idolatry , because our churches are false churches . against all communion with us they plead , because we are a false church , but against our stinted liturgie they argue not in that manner . the grounds on which that authour builds ( which he saith are common to all , that plead for the purity of gods ordinances ) are one and the same with the grounds of the separatists , shafts taken out of the same quiver and peculiar to them , some few brethren onely excepted , who of late have looked towards that opinion . see how affection will transport . those reasons shall be common to all that plead for the purity of christs ordinances , which were never taken to be sound and true , either by the reformed churches abroad , or by the godly brethren at home , whether now at rest with the lord , or for the present living , or yet by the most of the brethren among whom they live , and with whom they hold societie , or by any minister or societie which did hold the unitie of the spirit in the bond of peace for the space of this 1400 yeares and upwards , by your owne confession , unlesse within these few dayes , and that by a few onely . if this be not to strengthen the hands of the separatists , or at least , to lay blocks of offence in their way , what is ? as yet we thinke most of them that have separated , are not so farre gone , as to condemne all our assemblies as no churches of christ , but we judge they have proceeded further then christ the lord and saviour of his church hath given them commission or allowance , that the grounds whereon they build are unsound , and such as make way for further danger , if the lord prevent not . and that the reasons mentioned in the letters are the proper grounds of separatists , and not common to all them that seeke the purity of religion , for they are not approved by your selves : and if all this tend not to turne them who halt , out of the right way , wee heartily intreate you to consider . your judgement concerning the position , you deliver in three propositions ( for so many they be for substance ) in respect of the persons reading the liturgie , or the thing it selfe that is read . as if any part of the liturgie bee read , ( put case some few selected prayers onely , by an unable and ungodly minister : it is unlawfull ( say you ) for the people to joyne in that case . but if it be unlawfull for the people to joyne , when an ungodly minister readeth some few select prayers , it is either in respect of the minister , or the prayers themselves . not of the prayers themselves , for they be select and choyce , faultlesse both in respect of matter and manner , as it is taken for granted , unlesse this distribution be to no purpose ; if in respect of the minister , then it is not lawfull to joyne with such a one in any ordinance of god whatsoever . for if the minister make it unlawfull , then all communion in any part of gods worship , with such ministers is unlawfull , and so the church in all ages of the world , the prophets , our saviour christ , the apostles , and the faithfull in the primitive churches sinned , in holding communion with such , when the priests were dumbe dogges that could not barke , and greedy dogges that could never have enough ; when the prophets prophesied lies , and the priests bare rule by their meanes ; when the priests bought and sold doves in the temple , and tooke upon them to provide such things for them that were to offer ; when the pharisees corrupted the law by false glosses , taught for doctrines mens precepts , made the commandements of god of none effect through their traditions , under pretence of long prayer devoured widowes houses , taught the law , but practised it not ; when they were such , and did such things , they were ungodly ministers ; but we never find that the prophets , our saviour , the apostles , did either forbeare themselves , or warne the faithfull not to communicate with such in the ordinance of worship . we reade our saviour charged his disciples , to beware of the leaven of the scribes and pharisees , to let them alone , because they were the blind leaders of the blind , but he never forbade to communicate with them in the ordinances of god. it is not then for private christians to withdraw themselves from the ordinance of worship , and communion of the church , because such are permitted to deale in the holy things of god , whom they judge or know unfit : when men joyne in the worship of god with unworthy ministers , they doe not countenance them in their place and office , but obey the commandement of god , who requires their attendance upon his highnesse in that way and meanes . to goe no further then the text you quote , because thou hast despised knowledge , i will also reject thee , &c. properly the text is spoken of the ten tribes called israel , and the priests among them who worshipped the calves which ieroboam had set up , whom the lord threatneth to reject , because they had rejected knowledge being either wilfully ignorant , or withholding the truth in unrighteousnesse . whether they were for the present absolutely rejected , or the lord threatens only to reject them we will not dispute . this may suffice that it is not to be found either in this or any other text of scripture , that the people joyning in the true worship of god , with unworthy ministers , do countenance them in their place thereby . on the contrary , if you will extend this text to all unworthy ministers of what sort soever , whom the word of truth doth condemne as not approved ministers of god , the scripture teacheth evidently not onely that the people by joyning do not countenance them in their place and office , but that they must and ought to joyne with them in the worship of god , and in separating from the ordinance they shall sinne against god , much lesse then do they in such joyning set those idols and meanes of worship , which god never appointed in his word . for the worship is of god , and the ministery is of god , the person unworthily executing his place , is neither set up by some few private christians , nor can by them be removed . and warrant to withdraw themselves from the worship of god , because such as ought not , are suffered to entermeddle in the holy things of god , they have none from god. dumbe dogs , greedy dogs , idol-sheepheards , false prophets , strangers , are unworthy ministers , but they that communicate with such in the ordinance of worship , are never said to set up idols or means of worship which god never appointed . the sheep of christ will not heare strangers in the lords sense , but outwardly they heard those strangers preach ( if the scribes and pharisees were such ) and by hearing them discovered them to be strangers , i. e. false prophets ; some strangers at least , of whom our saviour speaks , were of the true church , and of israel , but brought false doctrine tending to kill the soule , such strangers none should heare , that is , believe and follow : but as they be tolerated in the church , so they may hear them , so long as they bring the truth . unworthy ministers are no ministers for themselves , but they are ministers for the people of god , that is , so long as they be in the place of ministers , the acts of their administrations are of force to the faithfull , if they observe the forme of administration prescribed by christ ; for christs ordinances have their efficacy from him , not from them that serve about them , and evill ministers minister not in their own name , but in christs and by his commission . it hath evermore bin held for a truth in the church of god , that although somtimes the evill have chiefe authority in the ministration of the word and sacraments , yet for as much as they doe not the same in their own name but in christs , and minister by his commission and authority , wee may use their ministery both in hearing the word , and receiving the sacraments ; neither is the effect of christs ordinance taken away , by their wickednesse , nor the grace of gods gifts diminished from such as by faith , and rightly doe receive the sacraments administred to them which are effectuall ; because of christs institution and promise , although they be ministred by evill men . beza de presbyt . et excōmunicat . p. 25 26. ista vero , quia nonnulli à sacris caetib . & sacrament . usu propter aliorum vitia ultro abstinent i. e. seipsos excommunicant magnam reprehensionem merentur . the reasons whereby the ancient churches condemned the donatists and catharists for their voluntary and seditious separation and the moderne churches condemne the anabaptists for their unwarrantable departure from , and so renting of the body of christ , will hold against separation from the prayers of the congregation , because they are read by an ungodly minister . the second proposition . where the whole liturgie is used , though by an able and godly minister , it is not lawfull to joyne in prayer in that case . herein wee cannot be of your judgement ; for in the times of the prophets , and our saviour christ , as great abuses , no question , were found in the church of the jews in the administration of holy things of god as can be imagined in our liturgie or forme of prayer : but the prophets and our saviour who taught the people to keepe themselves pure and undefiled , never taught them to separate from the administration of the holy things of god. and if the presence at our forms of prayer be not lawful by reason of the corruptions alleaged , there can be no visible society named throughout the world since 200. yeeres after christ or thereabouts , wherein a christian might lawfully joyne in prayer , reading the scripture , hearing the word or participation of the sacraments . for compare the doctrines , prayers , rites at those times in use in the churches with ours , and in all these , ( blessed be the name of the lord ) wee are more pure then they . but no man will be so bold ( we hope ) as to affirme the state of the churches within 200. yeeres after christ , to be so miserably decayed that the faithfull could not without sin hold communion with them in the aforesaid ordinances . the prayers of the minister , whether conceived or stinted in a set forme , be not his private prayers , but the publike prayers of the whole assembly , whose mouth he is to god both in the one and the other . but you will not say , the people ought not to joyne with their pastor in the publique assembly , if ought bee amisse in his prayer for matter , or manner , or both . it is all one to the people in this case , whether the fault be personall ( as some distinguish ) or otherwise knowne beforehand or not knowne : for if simple presence defile , whether it was knowne beforehand or not , all presence is faulty . and if simple presence defile not , our presence is not condemned , by reason of the corruptions knowne , whereof we stand not guilty , whether the corruption be through humane frailty or not , it is not in us to enquire , but rather whether we be called to come , and the faults such as one christian cannot or must not tolerate in another without breach of charity . for if the errour be such as may be tolerated , and i am called to be present ; by such fault i am not defiled though knowne before . if the error be such as in conscience may not be tolerated , though not knowne before hand , i am bound , if present some way to professe against it . this distinction of personall and ministeriall faults in this case untill it be cleared by some text of scripture or sound reason from the word , must goe for the devise of man. a church , a minister , or a christian may be stiffe in an error ( being misperswaded it is a truth ) after many meanes long used to convince them , with whom yet we must hold communion in the ordinances of religion : and the error may be such as we cannot without hypocrisy or denyall of the truth hold communion , though such meanes of conviction have not gone before . but the corruptions alleadged against our forme of prayer for matter or manner , are such as one christian may and must tolerate in another where he hath no power to redresse them . hath not christian wisdome and experience of humane frailties lessoned you ( deere brethren ) to beare one with another in matters of greater consequence then any have or can be objected truly against the form of prayer in use among us ? and why such corruptions should not be ascribed to humane frailty ; we see not : for if a godly minister make use of a book in things which he judgeth lawfull for matter and manner , the corruption in him that useth it according to his judgement , from what cause can it spring but humane ignorance and frailty ? we rest assured you question not the integrity of many , who make much more use of the booke then onely in a few select prayers . from the bottome of our hearts we desire and pray that god would remove out of his church and worship whatsoever offendeth for matter or manner , and that all things may be so done , not onely that they may be tolerated but that they might be approved in the conscience of all men . but we are perswaded that not onely some few select prayers but many prayers & other exhortations may lawfully be used , with fruit and edification to gods people . to aggravate faults especially when it tends to draw away people from the ordinances of god , is no lesse fault then to excuse them , it may be greater , and therefore we dare not esteeme the prayers read by a godly and faithfull minister according to the booke in use among us , a corrupt sacrifice whether in such as read them , or them that be present . in them that join according to christs command ( and liberty of absence from christ hath not beene shewed ) notwithstanding the corruptions , we hold the prayers to be an holy and acceptable sacrifice to god , and pleasing to jesus christ . the corrupt sacrifice is that , which the deceiver bringeth voluntarily , and out of neglect , having a male in his flock : but the faithfull bringeth himself and his godly desires according to the will of god , and as for corruptions , whether respecting matter or forme , they are none of his , they cleave not to his sacrifice to staine or pollute it . as for the text of the prophet mal. 1. 13 , 14. it is cited by many in this businesse , and to many purposes applyed , but we cannot finde that in the prophet for which it is here brought , the deceiver is accursed that offereth a corrupt thing to the lord. this we reade and beleeve , but that a godly man , being present at this forme of prayer among us , read by a godly and faithfull minister , is the deceiver , who offereth a corrupt thing unto the lord , that is not proved . no argument can be brought from this place to the purpose , but by analogy , which is a kinde of arguing of all other most ready at hand , but lyable to most exceptions , and apt to draw aside , if great care be not had , ( which in this place we finde not ) to take the proportion in every materiall point just and right . and we desire such as alleadge this passage of scripture against simple presence at the prayers of our liturgy , advisedly to consider whether god allow them to make such application of his truth which wee much doubt of , to say no more . your third proposition . that as you are very tender of imputing sinne to those men that joyne in some select prayers read by an able and godly minister : so on the other side you are not without feare , least such joyning may be found unlawfull , unlesse it may appeare that the ministers with whom the people have communion in reading those prayers , neither give any scandall by reading them , nor give unlawfull honour to a thing abused to idolatry and superstition , nor doe suffer themselves to be sinfully limited in the reading of them . 1 we cannot conceive how you should imagine the practice of a godly minister in reading some few select prayers to be scandalous or offensive in their congregations when the people generally , not in their assemblies onely , but throughout the whole land , were perswaded of the lawfulnesse of that course till now of late some have beene drawne away to separate , who yet by warrant of scripture produce nothing of weight to countenance that practice . 2 if the booke should be as you take it an idolathite , latent offence doth not oblige . if any man say unto thee , this is sacrificed to idols , eat it not , so that if it doe not manifestly appeare that this practice is scandalous ; it is not lawfull for the people to withdraw themselves . 3 the book ( we speake of the liturgie so far as it is sound and good ) by your confession is no idolathite , neither was it taken out of the masse-book in such sense as you object , but rather the masse & other idolatrous prayers were added to it , for popery is as a scab or leprosie cleaving to the church , and many truths belonging to the church as her proper legacie were stollen and heaped together in that denne . and why the true man may not challenge his goods where ever he finds thē , or the thiefe plead title to the true mans goods by prescription , we know not ? it is no hard taske to shew that our service-booke was reformed in most things according to the purest liturgies which were in use in the church long before the masse was heard of in the world . and if that could not be shewed , yet formes of speech generally taken ( we speak not of this or that speciall word or phrase ) is no more defiled by idolatry then the light aire , or place where idolatry is committed . it is not unlawfull to pray , lord helpe , or lord have mercy , or to give thankes , praised bee god , because the papists say , lady helpe , or , praised be god and the virgin mary . fourthly , put case the minister in reading such prayers gives offence , or attributes unlawfull honour to a thing abused to idolatry and superstition , or suffer himselfe to be sinfully limited in the reading of them , what is that to the faithfull ? this can be no just ground of the people 's not joyning with them in the worship of god , for that offence is personall onely , and not the sin of them that be present , they joyn in prayer onely , and not in his reading or limiting himself . not to say that every particular person must be herein both accuser and judge . if he give offence must they stumble at the stone , and separate from the ordinance of grace ? wee should rather think it is their duty to look unto their feet , that they goe not awry . let it be shewed out of the word of god , that either the minister is guilty of giving unlawfull honour , or that the people may lawfully withdraw themselves in case he should do so , and we will then say as you do , but untill that be proved , ( being pressed and called to proffer our judgements ) we believe that separation is scandalous and sinfull , never taught of god , nor confirmed by the approved example of the godly in any age or time of the church : yea , against the positive law of god , injurious to the churches distracting christians , bringing contempt upon the ordinances of god , and defrauding believers of the spirituall food of their souls , which is indeed to infringe their christian liberty , and what ever may be thought of it now , in former times it hath been accounted no small offence . fiftly , if this and such like scruples make it unlawfull to joyn in the ordenance of worship , we must hold communion with no society under heaven . for may not the brethren which hold all stinted liturgies , and set forms unlawfull say with like strength of reason , it is unlawfull to joyn in conceived prayer with others , if either they give too little honour to it , as deeming the other lawfull , or sinfully limiting , or suffering themselves to be limited to one stinted forme , though conceived at first by them selves ? and may not the brethren who hold a stinted forme lawfull in like manner object ? it is unlawfull to joyn in prayer with them because they attribute too much honour to conceived prayer , as making their device and method the worship of god ? and may not the brethren which hold it lawfull to use some selected prayers according to the forms among us , upon the same grounds condemne communion with both sorts ? and all of them one with another , because they either limit themselves too much , or too little ? you say in the exposition of the first position , many preachers constantly use a set form of prayer of their own making before their sermons , must you not say upon this ground , that it is unlawfull to joyn with them , because they sinfully stint themselves ? in probability a christian may presume , that in the publike worship of god , there will be through humane ignorance & infirmity somwhat amiss for matter , or manner , or both , & that upon this ground , he must joyn with no society in any part of gods worshipat all . the advancing of every small difference to this height , is that which will bring all to confusion , if men walk uniforme to their own principles . it is well observed by master i. da. that unlesse men will yield so much favour each to other in some difference of opinions , a dissolving not onely of churches , but of humane societies also must necessarily follow , & not onely not two ministers , but not two men should live together , which were to put off even humanity it selfe . sixtly , wee have credibly heard that you hold fellowship with professed , rigid separatists without any acknowledgment of their errour , and receive them as members , or communicate with them in the priviledges of the church , though you professe you approve not their opinion or practice . and if in godly wisdome , you can see grounds to joyn with them , we marvell you should be so timorous in this particular . seventhly , if you judge the practice of such godly ministers , scandalous to them that separate from the ordinance , because it is not administred in this , or that but in a stinted form . it is a scandall taken , and not given ; and by forbearing , if to confirme men in errour , be to scandalize them , they should offend them the more : yea , they should prejudice the truth , and it might be an occasion to beget needlesse scruples in others , and draw them ignorantly from the fellowship of the saints in the holy ordinances of god , and strengthen them who by your owne confession , are run too far into schisme already . iii position . that the children of godly and approved christians , are not to be baptized untill their parents be set members of some particular congregation iv position . that the parents themselves , though of approved piety , are not to be received to the lords supper , untill they be admitted as set members . answ . these two positions may be maintained with one and the same defence , being somewhat coincident , and therfore we joyn them as if they were but one . therefore to prevent all mistakes , it may please you to take notice that we are not of their judgement who refuse all religious communion with such as are not church members , nor doe wee appropriate communion in this priviledge of the seals only to the members of our own churches , excluding all other churches of christ from the same , though they may be through errour or humane frailty defective in some matters of order , provided that the liberty of our churches be preserved , of receiving such satisfaction as is meet ( as well by letters of recommendation , or otherwise if it be requisite ) concerning those whom wee admit unto fellowship in the seals . for as we account it our duty to keepe the unity of spirit inviolate with any , in whom we discerne any fruits of the spirit , so we hold our selves bound to discharge this duty , according to order . spirituall cōmunion in prayers , holy conferences & other religious actions of like nature we maintain with al godly persons , though they be not in church order : but church communion we hold onely with church members admitting to fellowship of the seals the known and approved , & orderly recommended members of any true church . but into fellowship of the censures , admittance of members and choice of officers , onely the members of that particular church whereof they and we ( any of us ) stand members . these things being premised , the considerations whereupon our judgement and practice is swayed for administration of the seals onely to such as are in order of a true visible church are these that follow . reply . vvhat is here premised to prevent all mistakes , doth seem more to raise then to abate scruples if we mistake not your meaning . you refuse not all religious communion with all that are not church members , and so much they professe , who formerly have gone for , and professed themselves separatists from our assemblies . you do not appropriate this priviledge of the seals onely to the members of your own churches , excluding all other churches of christ from the same ; if your meaning be onely this , that you deny not the sacraments administred in other churches to be the true sacraments of christ for substance , then you ascribe little more to the churches of christ in this , then to the synagogue of satan , the church of rome . for you will not deny baptisme administred among them to be true for substance : if you deny not to have fellowship with them in the scals , and to admit them to the sacrament , and to communicate with them : then either your judgment is contrary to your practice , or you exclude the churches of england from the number of true visible churches of christ , which is to destroy what you formerly builded , and here professe . all possible care to keep the ordinances of god from contempt , we allow and commend , provided you go not beyond the lords warrant , and deny not the priviledges of the church to them , to whom they are due by divine appointment , nor the name and title of church to those societies , which god hath plentifully blessed with means of grace , have received the tables and seals , and have entred into covenant with his highnesse . your liberty to receive such satisfaction as is meet , is not called into question , nor whether you are to keep the bond of the spirit inviolate according to order . but whether this be to keep the bond of the spirit inviolate ( viz ) to exclude from the sacrament true visible believers or knowne recommended christians , formerly members of visible churches among us ; and their children ; because they are not members ( as you speak ) in church order . and whether god alloweth to put this difference between church mēbers of your societies & other visible believers walking in holines , though not admitted members of any society according to your church order , as to receive the one , though members of another society , unto the seals , and to debar the other and their children . these are the things to be considered in these present positions . and first we will examine your reasons for your judgment and practice by themselves , and then so far as we judge meet , try your answers to the objections you make against it . 1 consideration . the seals baptism & the lords supper are given to the church , as a priviledge peculiar therto in ordinary dispensation . indeed the preaching of the word is not so , being an ordinance given not onely for the edifying of the church already gathered but also for the gathering of men to the churches that yet are without : wheras the dispensing of the seals is gods ordinance , given onely for the edifying of the church being gathered , and not for the gathering of it : and because there is now , no universall visible church on earth wherein the seals are dispenced , there being no place , nor time , nor officers , nor ordinances appointed in the new testament by christ our lord , for any such assemblies as the iewes had under moses . it remains that the christian churches , whereunto these priviledges were given , are congregationall , consisting onely of so many as may and do meet together ordinarily in one place for the publike worshipping of god , and their own edifying . hence it is that we read so much in the new testament of the churches in the plurall number , the churches of christ , the churches of god , the churches of the saints : and not onely when they were of divers nations , the churches of the gentiles , but also of the same nation , the churches of iudèa , and not onely when that country was of large extent and circuit , the churches of asia , but also of a small part of the country , the churches of galatia : yea , when congregations in severall cities are spoken of , they are called churches , as the churches of ierusalem , the churches at antioch . to wind up all , seeing the churches in the gospell are congregationall , and that baptisme and the lords supper ( being church priviledges ) belong onely to the churches , it will follow , that as city priviledges belong onely to citizens and their children : so baptisme and the lords supper being church priviledges , belong onely to the members of particular churches , and their seed . and that seeing sigillum sequitur donum , to apply them to others what is it but to abuse them ? as a seal of a corporation is abused if added to confirme the grant of priviledges which are peculiar to any towne corporate to one that being no free-man of that corporation is uncapable thereof . reply . if by the church be understood the society of men , professing the entire faith of christ , the seales are given unto it as a peculiar priviledge ; but if by the church you understand onely a congregationall assembly in church order , the seales were never appropriated to it . but to examine every thing in order as it is propounded . 1 the seales , baptisme , and the lords supper , are given to the church as priviledges peculiar thereunto , not onely in ordinary ( as you say ) but also in extraordinary dispensation . true baptisme is not without the church , but within it ; an ordinance given to it , and they that are baptised , must needes be of a church . the sacraments are the seales of the covenant to the faithfull , which is the forme of the church , and when for substance rightly used , tokens and pledges of our spirituall admittance and entertainment into the lords family , and symbolls or testimonies whereby the people of god are distinguished from all other nations . this is most certain , as in the ordinary ; so in the extraordinary dispensation of the seales , as is confirmed by the texts of scripture alleadged in the margine . for the apostles ( as you say ) dispenced the seales in an extraordinary way , but the seales dispenced by the apostles were seales of the covenant , priviledges peculiar to the church , priviledges of spirituall admittance and entertainment into the lords family . and when you say the dispencing of the seals is an ordinance given onely for the edifying of the church being gathered , and not for the gathering of it , must it not be understood in extraordinary , dispensation as wel as ordinary : to what pupose then are those words ( in ordinary dispensation ) added to the proposition ? if thereby you would intimate that the sacraments be not the peculiar priviledges of the church , and seales of the covenant in extraordinary dispensation , it is evidently crosse to the text you cite , and to your selves afterward . if your meaning be , that in ordinary dispensation the sacraments doe of right belong to them onely , who bee set members of a visible congregation , it is all one with the conclusion , that which is in question and should be proved , and that which this very scripture doth plentifully disprove ' ; for they that were baptised were not set members of a particular congregationall church whereunto they were baptised , nor in a church way before baptisme ( as is evident and granted by the most of your selves ) but by baptisme solemnly admitted into the church , and then it is not for your purpose ; or they were set members ( as some of the brethren seeme to contend in answer to the objection framed against this consideration ) and then the words are more then superfluous . added , they were to prevent the objection which you foresaw might be made from the apostles practice and example but so as they cut asunder the sinews of the consideration it selfe , and make it of no force . for as those beleivers were of the church : so are approved christians and their seed among us : therefore the priviledges of the seales belong unto them . 2 and as the seales : so is the word of salvation preached and received a priviledge of the church . if by the preaching of the word you understand nothing but the tender of salvation or the publishing of the will of god , concerning the salvation of man , whether by private or publike persons ; it is not proper to the church but an ordinance given for the gathering of men to the church , and not only for the edifying of the church . for the apostles first preached to the gentiles when infidels , that they might be converted ; and we doubt not but a minister or private christian comming into a country of infidells , may as occasion is offered , and as they shall be inabled , instruct and perswade them to receive the faith of christ : but if by the preaching of the word be meant the giving of the word to a people , to abide and continue with them , and consequently their receiving of it at least in profession then it is proper to the church of god. the word makes disciples to christ , and the word given to a people is gods covenanting with them , and the peoples receiving this word and professing their faith in god through iesus christ is the taking of god to bee their god. the lawes and statutes which god gave to israell , was the honour and ornament to that nation , and a testimony that god had separated them from all other people , even the gentiles themselves being iudges . the word of reconciliation is sent and given to the world reconciled in iesus christ , and they that receive the doctrine , law , or word of god are the disciples , servants and people of god. in your second consideration you intimate that there is a two fold preaching , the one by office and authority , the other in common charity , or how ever else it may be called . for thus you write . god hath joyned to preach ( viz by office ) and to baptize together , therefore we may not separate them . now to preach unto , that is to instruct or counsell in charity is a duty which may be performed to an infidell , but to preach by office is proper to them that are called to that office : and so to be taught and instructed by officers in the church is proper to the church . to have pastors who shall feed with knowledge and understanding is a gift of matrimoniall love which god vouchsafeth unto his church . the apostles first gathered churches and then ordained elders in everie citie or church ; so that it is proper to the church to be fed and guided by true spirituall pastors who teach and blesse in the name of the lord. and if the word preached and received bee a certaine note of the true church , they that have intyrely received the word of salvation and have pastors godly and faithfull to feede and guide them , they and their seed have right and interest unto the seales in order . moreover the true worship of god is an inseparable and infallible marke of the true church of god , for where christ is , there is his church . this is the prerogative of the church . the prince shall be in the midst of them , and he shall go in when they goe in , &c. and christ saith , where 2. or 3. are met together in my name there am i in the middest among them . and for certain they are gathered in the name of christ that being lawfully called doe assemble to worship god and call upon his name in the mediation of iesus christ . in times past , the church was acknowledged by the feare of god , and entyre service of his majestie , by the professing of the true faith and faithfull calling upon gods name . the signes of apostolike churches are these . the continuance in the apostles doctrine and fellowship , and breaking of bread and prayer . and if faith , true and lively ( though mixed with many doubtings and errors ) make a man a living member of iesus christ , the entyre profession of true faith joyned with holynesse of life in some measure answerable thereunto , makes a man a true member of the visible church . and if the feales belong to the church in right and orderly dispensation , they that joyne together in the true worship of god , according to his will , with godly and faithfull pastors , they have right and title to the sacraments according to divine institution . thirdly , that there is now no visible catholike church in your sense will easily bee granted . i. e. there is no universall society consisting of all such as are accounted or to bee esteemed christians , subjected to one or many vniversall pastors or guides , wherwithall subordinates must communicate in some sacred things which may make them one church and which may and can be performed by that vniversall and head church only . such an vniversall christian church christ never ordained , no not in the dayes of the apostles , to whom all the care of all the churches , was committed . the churches planted by the apostles had all the same substantiall lawes and customes , the same guides and officers for kinde , the same ordinances of worship and meanes of salvation : but one flock or society in the fore mentioned acceptation they were not , because they were but subordinate to one visible head , christ , with which they were to hold union and communion in some worship to be performed by them all jointly assembled at some speciall solemnity , nor subjected to the government of any supreame tribunall constantly to be erected and continued among them . neverthelesse , in some respects of reason , the visible church , may be called the church , sheepfold or flock of christ ; for if the whole society or body mysticall of christ be one , this church militant in like sort is one : the unity of which society consists in that uniformity , which all severall persons thereunto belonging , have by reason of that one lord whose servants they all are , and professe themselves , that one spirit whereby they are animated as the body by one soul ; whereby they believe in christ , and which they acknowledge and professe , that one baptisme inward and outward , whereby they put on christ , and are initiated . this society is one in the inward fruition and enjoying of the benefits of christs death and resurrection , and in outward profession of those things which supernaturally appertain to the very essence of the church , and are necessarily required in every christian , this acceptation of the word is not unusuall in scripture . as god hath set some in the church . his bodies sake which is the church . the church viz. whereof paul was made a minister , and whereunto the rest of the apostles were ordained , which was the catholike visible church , the society of men professing the faith of christ throughout the world , divided into many particular churches whereof some are pure , others impure , some more , others lesse sound . hereunto it may be added , that every multitude and society of believers are indefinitely called the church , i persecuted the church of god. the house of god which is the church of the living god. in which sense all the churches in the world may truly be called one . and thus the apostle peter writing to many dispersed churches , who could not assemble in one place nor be fed by one shepherd , speaketh of them singularly as one flock . feed the flock of god which is among you . but that flock are the strangers dispersed through pontus , galatia . asia , cappadocia , and bythinia , which could not possibly joine together in the ordinances of worship , or make one distinct congregated assembly . and if the catholike militant church be one society , the seals that are given as a prerogative to the church are given unto it , and the true members of the catholike church have right and title to them in due order , though they be not admitted into the church fellowship you speak of . for as the flock or society is one : so is the ministery , faith , covenant , and sacraments , which are given as a communion prerogative unto the whole church , and not appropriated to this or that part ormember , as separated from the whole ; which is further evidenced hereby , that sometime it hath , and too often it may fall out , that a christian may be a true member of the universall visible church ( i. e. he may hold , professe , and maintain that holy catholike faith , pure , and undefiled , without which no man can be saved ) who for the present is no actuall member of any particular or visible society in church order . as for example , a man may be cut off by excommunication , from all commerce with the present visible church wherein hee was bred and born , when hee is not cut off from the catholike , orthodoxall church . hee may be deprived of participation of the ordinance in every particular society , when his right and title to them is much better then these who have most injuriously cast him out , or debarred him of the means of salvation . the communion of saints , whether visible or invisible is the effect and property of the church catholike , and agreeth to the severall parts and members thereof , as they be members of that body under the head , and if particular churches have communion together it must of necessity be , that they bee parts and members of the whole body which is one . 4. though there be no universall congregation or assembly nor can be imagined , yet there are and have beene many visible assemblies or societies , true churches of christ , to whom the prerogative of the seals is given , which have not beene united and knit together , in church-order into one congregationall body or society , for every society in covenant with god is the true church of god : for what is it to be the flock , people or sheepe of god , but to be the church of god ? and where there is a covenant , there is the people of god. they that are of the faith of abraham , are the children and seed of abraham , and within the covenant of abraham ( though but two or three ) and so of the same church with him by that covenant . the communication and accepting of the tables of the covenant is an undoubted token of a people in covenant or confederate , but every society professing the true and entire faith , joyning in prayer and thankesgiving , receiving the truth of god to dwell among them , and in some measure conforming themselves to the obedience of gods commandements , is in covenant with god. it is simply necessary to the being of a church that it be laid upon christ the foundation , which being done , the remaining of what is forbidden , or the want of what is commanded , cannot put the society from the title or right of a church . for christ is the foundation and head corner stone of the church , and a people comming unto christ , united unto him , built upon him , having communion with him and growing up in him , are the true church of god : and if the seals be annexed to the covenant by god himselfe , as we cannot deny a people in covenant to be the church , so we must not deny their right and title to the sacraments . if therefore the meaning of the proposition be , that the seales be given to the church , that is , to true and sound christians , and people in covenant with god , as a priviledge whether in ordinary or extraordinary dispensation we accept it as good and sound , but it makes against your judgement and practice in keeping away such as have right and title to the ordinances . if you meane the seales are given to the church , that is , onely to set members of some particular society combined by covenant ( as it is among you ) we cannot receive it , because it implieth a distinction not taught in scripture , and crosse to your selves . and for the thing it selfe the scripture hath nothing but many things against it as hath beene shewed . 5 if it be granted that the seales are the prerogative of a particular visible church , known and approved christians among us , and their seed are members of true and visible churches , and so to be esteemed among you before they be entred into church membership as you call it . for every society professing the intire and true faith , and joyning together in the right use of the sacraments in matters substantiall is the true church of god , and every visible beleever receiving the word and professing the true intire faith , admitted to the right and lawfull participation of the sacraments is a visible member of the true church , if he have neither renounced that society , nor deserved justly to be cast out by excommunication or church censure . for the intire profession of the truth , the dwelling of the truth among men , the right use of the sacraments ( which is ever joyned with truth of doctrine , and to be esteemed by it ) is proper to them that be in covenant with god , and they that truly partake of the seales must needes be of a church , for the seales are not without but within the church an ordinance given unto it , and if they be true members of the true churches of jesus christ , other churches , are bound to hold communion with them in the ordinance of worship as divine providence shall minister occasion . in answer to the ninth position you say the members of other churches , well known and approved by vertue of communion wich churches , doe mutually and with good acceptance communicate each of them at others churches , even so often as gods providence leads them thereunto , and themselves desire it . in your preface to this consideration , you say you admit to fellowship of the seales , the known , approved , and orderly recommended members of any true church , and if knowne and approved christians , members of our churches comming over into new england , shall desire either to have their children baptized , or to be admitted themselves to the lords supper before they be set members of any society these , we desire to know upon what grounds from god you can deny them , if you acknowledge our churches , ministery , and sacraments , to be true and of god ( as you professe ) and the members of the church be known and approved , orderly recommended unto you . it is the priviledge of christians baptised themselves , and walking in the faith , that their children should have right to baptisme in all true churches in the world . it is the priviledge of christians lawfully and justly admitted to the lords supper in one visible church , and walking in covenant with god , that they have right to this priviledge in all churches professing their intire faith , and you must shew just and sound reasons from god of your judgement and practice in debarring their seed from baptisme , and parents themselves from the supper , or else ( to use the words of a reverend elder among you , in a case of lesse importance , and not concerning so many ) you will be found guilty of adding to the words , and making eleven commandements , and setting up humane customes , and selfewill against gods appointment . for the sacraments are given to the church as a priviledge peculiar thereunto , but you deny this priviledge to the true visible members of the church , ( as your selves confesse . ) for if the ministers be the ministers of christ , and their congregations the churches of christ , then knowne and approved christians are members of the church . in your opinion the members of the jewish church might be received unto baptisme , upon confession of the christian faith , before they were entred into church fellowship , and it is more then strange to us that you should not thinke the true visible members of the churches of christ to have as much title and interest to the seales , as the members of the jewish church to the sacrament of baptisme . 6 the distinct churches mentioned in the new testament , it is not certain that they were congregationall societies consisting onely of so many as might and did meete together ordinarily in one place at one time for the publike worship of god , and their own edification , and if this were granted it would not carry the weight that was laid upon it , but because it may make way for the clearing of some other points pertaining to discipline and church orders , we intreat leave to set downe , and desire you to examine what may be objected against it . we will not insist upon this that the least circuite wherein there is mention of churches is ample enough to containe some diocesses and the least city , populous enough to make many numbersome congregations . nor upon this , that to meete at one time and one place , as one assembly is a thing meerely accidentary to the unity of the church and society ecclesiasticall which is still one , when they are dispersed asunder , and no particular man of that society at first remaining now alive . the number of beleevers was so great in some cities as they could not conveniently meete in one place as one assembly to worship the lord according to his will and for their edifying . that there was a church gathered in the city of samaria by the ministery of phillip will not be denyed , for they received the word and were baptised , but that the church in that city was onely a congregationall assembly is more then can probably be concluded out of scripture . for the whole city or the greatest part could not ordinarily assemble in one place to their edification : but the whole city of samaria , in a manner , ( as it is probable ) imbraced the faith . as the whole city from the least to the greatest had given heede to simon magus before , so to phillip now when he preached christ , and the text saith expresly that samaria received the gospell . the christian church at ierusalem was one and distinct , but it grew and increased first to 3000. then to 5000. afterwards multitudes of men and women were added , and the multitude of disciples increased ; it is also noted that a company of the priests received the faith . the syriacke hath it of the jews , ( scil . ) inhabiting judea , but the greeke , arabian , vulgar , chrisostoms & ethiopians approve the former , and the number of the priests was not small : there is mention also of millions of beleevers . and when all the apostles , or the greatest part of them remained at jerusalem for a time continuing in the ministery of the word and prayer , and that they might doe it the more earnestly and diligently , left the care of the poore to others : how can we thinke but that church did grow exceedingly , and the number of beleevers there to be more then could fitly meete ordinarily in one congregation . without question the number of beleevers in antioch was not small , of which it is said expresly , that a great number beleeved , turned to the lord and that a great multitude was added to the lord by the preaching of barnabas , and that paul and barnabas continued there one whole yeere preaching the word of god , and teaching the multitude , so that the disciples were first called christians at antiach . after that this church was visited by paul and barnabas , who continued there teaching and preaching the word of god with many others also , and may wee not thinke that this church did quickly rise to such bignesse that they could not well assemble in one congregation as now wee call them ? it will easily be credited that the number of believers was not small at ephesus , if we call to minde that when paul had been there but two yeers , all they that dwelt in asia had heard the word of the lord both iews and grecians , that a great doore and effectuall was opened to him at ephesus , that the art for making shrines , and dianaes temple was in danger to be set at nought , and that those that had used curious arts , came and burnt their books in the sight of all men , which could not be done without great danger unto the church , unlesse a great part of the city had believed . where a church did comprehend a city with its suburbs and the country circumjacent , i. e. the believers who professed the faith within that circuit . it might well be that the number did so increase through the extraordinary blessing of god , which accompanied the preaching of the word in those primitive times , and first planting of the heavenly kingdome , that they could not well meet ordinarily in one place , and yet continued one society . for when a number is gathered in small villages , or some added to the number already gathered , it is not meet they should be neglected because small , nor divided from the body , because the number not competent to make an intire and perfect body of it selfe . the increase of the churches doth require an increase of elders , and ( if they grow to bignesse more then ordinary ) an increase of places for their assembling , when the essence of the visible church is not changed , nor one multiplied or divided into many . and it is more available for the good of the church , and further removed from all ambition , if the society shall assemble occasionally in divers places as parts and members of the body , then to constitute a distinct free society consisting of a few believers , not fit to make up an intire body contrary to the precedent examples of the apostles . in times of grievous and hot persecution the churches of god could not assemble in any great number in publick places , but have been compelled to meet in woods , caves , dens , and dark corners , as the lord hath offered opportunity , one and the same society in sundry places : so that either it is not essentiall to the church to meet together in one place ordinarily , or their society is broken off by persecution , when their meeting together in one place is interrupted . it is said by some where the church grew greater , sometimes by the suddain and extraordinary conversion of more then could well so assemble , then was there presently a dispersion of the former , and a multiplication of more particular assemblies . but in the scriptures quoted no such thing doth appeare , but rather the contrary as hath been proved . in aftertimes when the church was within the cities as of rome , ephesus , alexandria , carthage , ierusalem , &c. the number of believers did greatly exceed the bignesse of a convenient and fitting assembly which might ordinarily congregate in one place to worship god according to his appointment when the church was but one . seventhly seeing then both the seals in ordinary and in extraordinary dispensation belong to the church , id est , to the faithfull , and repentant , taught made disciples , who have received the word , believe , and professe the faith , have received the holy ghost , and walke in obedience , who are members of other visible churches , or to be made members of a visible church for the time being , by admittance unto the sacraments , and not unto set members of congregationall assemblies only . and seeing the godly and faithful ministers among us are the true ministers of christ , and their godly congregations , true churches , and knowne , and approved christians , true members of visible churches formerly baptized , and admitted to the lords supper . this consideration is of no weight to justifie your opinion and practice in debarring known and approved christians , professing the faith , members of the true visible churches amongst us from the lords supper , or their seed from baptisme , because they be not yet received as set members of some particular cōgregation amongst you : and if such believers are not to be received to the seals , we desire you to consider if ever the sacraments of the new testament , were rightly dispensed in the church of the new testament from the first plantation thereof unto this day . the seale doth follow the grant , and as the seale is prophaned , if it be put to a false grant or charter , so are the faithfull wronged if the seale in a lawfull way desired , be denied to them that have received the grant , i. e. have right unto jesus christ , and communion with him . but the faithfull who have received the word with gladnesse , believe , and professe , be members knowne and approved by other visible churches , or such as desire to be admitted members of that visible society for the time by communicating in the ordinance , are already partakers of the grant or charter , have right and interest in christ , may lawfully desire the seals , and may be admitted as members for the time being of that particular society . therefore to debar such , from the lords supper , and their seed from baptisme , is against the law of nature , and the positive law of god , an injury to the faithfull and their seed , a wrong to the catholike visible church , that particular society , and the pastors themselves that so debar them . they sinned grievously who deferred baptisme to the end of their life , and the negligence of pastors and teachers who did not instruct the ignorant and reprove the superstitious , was great . and is not the severity in debarring such as crave and desire to be admitted to the seals an injury to be reprehended ? answ . 2 confider the ordinary administration of the seales is limited to the ministery and the ministery to a particular church ; therefore the seals also must necessarily be proper to the church and to the members thereof . 1. that the administration of the seales is limited to their ministery is evident from the first institution math. 28. 19. where god hath joyned ( to preach ) viz. by office , and ( to baptize ) together , therefore wee may not separate them . for howsoever : any man may by the appointment of the lord and master of the family , signifie his minde and deliver his message from him to the family , yet the dispensing of a fitt portion of food to everie one of the houshold is a branch of the stewards office . indeed the keies are given to the whole church yet the exercise and dispensation of them in this as well as in other particulars is concredited to the ministers who are called to bee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 1 cor. 4. 1. and no church office can be orderly performed by any , but one that is called thereunto nor will god vouchsafe his presence , and blessing ( wherupon all spirituall efficacy depends ) in an ordinance dispensed , but when it is dispensed by those whom he hath ordayned and appointed therunto . 2. that the ministery is limited to the church appeares as from evident texts of scripture : so also upon this ground . 1 the office is founded in the relation betweene the church and the officer , wherfore take away the relation , and the office and the worke ceaseth . for where he hath not power , he may not doe an act of power , and he hath no powerwhere he hath not a relation by office . herein the proportion holdeth between an officer of a towne corporate , and of a church that as the power of the former is only within his owne corporation : so the power of the latter is confined to his owne congregation . reply . the proposition is granted that the dispensation of the sacraments in the new testament both ordinary and extraordinary is limited to the ministery . but in that you alleadge for confirmation , somethings may be noted . 1 the first institution of baptisme is not contained in that passage math. 28. 19. but confirmed ; for the seales of the new testament were instituted by christ before his death , and his disciples had baptized many which they could not doe before the institution of the sacrament . secondly we see not how you can apply that text to preaching by office , which according to our exposition must bee a dispensing of a fit portion of food to everie one of the houshould . for it is plaine the apostles were sent forth to preach to everie creature or unto the world , to convert men unto god , to make them disciples and not to preach unto disciples only , or members of the houshould . the apostles certainly had authority , and preached by authority , but they preached not to infidells and heathens , as to disciples or members of the church , much lesse did they give a portion to them as to the houshold which is the preaching by office , which you acknowledge . thirdly if under the power of the keyes you comprehend preaching by office , dispensing the seales , casting out , and receiving againe into the bosome of the church wee deny the power of the keyes to belong to the church or community of the faithfull : we cannot find in scripture that christ ever granted such power to the faithfull , as faithfull joyned together in covenant in those passages which speake of this power , the execution of this authority is given to them to whom the authoritie is committed . if the power of the keyes be given to the whole church the apostles themselves must derive their authoritie immediatly from the church , and not from christ , for the power must be derived from them , unto whom it was given ; but their power , and authority was not from the church , but from christ immediatly . and if the dispensation , and exercise of the keyes , be concredited to the ministers ; doth it hold in all things or onely in the dispensation of the sacraments , and preaching by office ? doe they dispense the seales as the stewards of christ , from whom they receive their authority immediately or as the servants of the church , from which they derive their authority ? if in the first sense ; the power of the keys is not in the community of the faithfull . if in the second , the office of a minister is not the immediate gift of christ , nor the minister , so much the servant of christ , as of the church , from whom he must receive lawes , in whose name he must doe his office , and to whom he must give an account . we could wish you had explained in what sense , you hold the dispensation , and execution of the power of the keyes is concredited to the ministers , and by whom . for if the community of the faithfull have to doe in all matters concerning the body , to admit members , and cast them out , to make and depose ministers , to bind and loose by authority derived from christ , wee cannot see how in your judgement the dispensation , and execution of the power of the keyes is concredited to the ministers . fourthly that which you add , that god will not vouchsafe his presence and blessing to an ordinance but when it is dispenced by those , whom hee hath ordayned and appointed thereunto , must bee warily understood , or it may occasion errors and distractions not a few , you know what corruptions soone entred into the church of god , both in respect of doctrine , worship , offices , and entrance thereunto , and how ready and apt is the conclusion from your words , that christ hath not vouchsafed his presence , and blessing in his ordinances to his church ? but of this before . and on the contrary , seeing god hath vouchsafed his blessing in his ordinances dispensed by your selves , when you stood as visible ministers in the congregation , and churches of old england , you must confesse , did approve both your standings and his ordinances dispensed by you . secondly , as for the assumption , that pastors and teachers are limited to a particular charge or society ; but that flock is not ever one congregationall assembly meeting in one place , neither the band so streight , whereby they are tied to that one society , that they may not upon occasion performe some ministeriall act or office in another congregation , or to them that be not set members of their proper assembly . for first to dispence the seals of the covenant is a ministeriall act , an act of office , and not an exercise of gifts onely : but the pastors of one assembly may dispence the sacrament to the set members of another society upon occasion , as you confesse in this and in your answer to the ninth position . and if the members of one church may lawfully upon occasion receive the sacrament of the supper in another society from the pastor thereof , then may the pastor of one congregation performe a ministeriall act to the members of another , and if to the members of another then in another congregation with consent , and upon occasion . secondly , as the ministers are exhorted to feed their fleek : so is every christian and minister to try and examine himselfe whether hee be in the faith , but you will not allow this conclusion . i must examine my self . ergo no man is debarred from the sacrament for his unworthinesse , or to be tried or examined by others , to be observed , admonished , and brought to repentance for notorious sin . no more can it be rightly gathered from the former passages of scripture , that the minister is not upon occasion to performe any ministeriall act to any other people or society , because ordinarily he is to attend his own flock . thirdly , as the ministers have peculiar relation to their particular flocks , so the people unto their particular ministers , unto whom they are ried in speciall manner , as to their overseers , who must give account for theirsculs . and if this peculiar relation betwixt the people & the minister doth not hinder the people from receiving the lords supper at the hands of another minister ; nor the minister from performing the ministeriall act to the members of another congregation . neither doth his peculiar relation to his own flock hinder him , from administring unto others upon just occasion being intreated thereunto . as the combining of the people to their peculiar minister , doth not quite cut off their communion with other ministers : so neither doth the restraining of a minister to a peculiar flock quite cut him off from administring upon occasion : unto another people . paul appointeth the ephesian elders unto the care & charg onely of their own particular flock , but so to attend them ordinarily according to the rules of the scripture ; that as occasion was offered , might performe some ministeriall acts in another congregation . the taking heed unto their flocks which paul requires in this place doth cōprehend under it the administration of the word , prayer , and sacrament , and if it must be restrained to their owne particular churches onely , it is unlawfull for a pastor to preach or call upon the name of god in any publike assembly save his own , upon any occasion , as these be duties prtaining to common confession or profession of faith . ordinary pastors and teachers it is true , are not apostles , who are to go from place to place , from country to country , to plant and erect churches , but they are tied ordinarily to one flock , as the text proveth , and to which purpose it is commonly cited . but that a pastor is so tied to his flock , that he can perform no ministeriall act to any other upon any occasion that it proveth not , nor can we find that it was ever so understood by divines ancient or modern . w. b. telleth us , the learned bring these allegations to this purpose . but the authour in alledging the consent of the learned was very carelesse or much abused , for there is not one that speaketh to the purpose . i. d. disclaimeth that position ; and for the rest it is a matter notorious , they were never thought to be of that opinion ; and wee doubt not if any could be named to free this allegation from suspition of novelty , you would have cited one or more as you have done in that which followeth . feed the flock of god ( saith peter . ) but he speaks of all those dispersed churches to whom he writes , which he calls a chosen generation , a royall priesthood , a peculiar people : and in some respect of reason , under which we may apprehend them , are one flock , but not really as combined under the same pastor , or meeting in one place . and as these dispersed believers , or socieities make one flock : so the ministers attending their flocks or societies , and the ministery exercised by them is , or maketh one . 4 a minister chosen and set over one society , is to looke unto his people committed to his charge , and feed the flock over which the lord hath made him overseer , but he is a minister in the church universall , for as the church is one , so is the ministery one , of which every minister ( sound or orthodox ) doth hold his part , and though he be minister over that flock onely which he is to attend , yet he is a minister in the universal church . the functiō or power of exercising that function in the abstract , must be distinguished from the power of exercising it , concretely , according to the divers circumstances of places . the first belongeth to a minister every where in the church , the latter is proper to the place and people where hedoth minister . the lawfull use of his power is limited to that congregation ordinarily . the power it self is not so limited and bounded . in ordination , presbyters are not restrained to one or other certaine place , as if they were to be deemed ministers there onely , though they be set over a certain people . and as the faithfull in respect of a community betwixt them , must and ought to performe the offices of love one to another , though of different societies , so the ministers in respect of their communion , must and ought upon occasion to performe ministeriall offices towards the faithfull of distinct societies . 5 if this be not so , what shall become of the poore flock when the pastor is driven away by personall persecution , so that he cannot , if others may not afford them helpe and succour : what when the congregation it selfe is dispersed , must no sheepherd receive them into fold , when they are driven from their own , or neglected by him ? 6 if the pastor may be absent from his flock upon necessary , just , and weighty occasion , respecting his own good , the good of that society , or the common good of churches consociate , then may the pastor , the society , the churches procure some man to supply the defect , and doe the office of a pastor , preach the word , pray , and as occasion is offered , administer the sacrament in that congregation unto that assembly untill their sheepheard shall returne . shall the people be left as sheepe without a sheepheard ; because for the good of the churches their owne sheepheard is called from them for a time , that he might returne with greater joy and comfort ? the pastor is appointed to feed his own flock , and yet for the good of the whole church he may be called to leave , if not the care , yet the over-sight of his flock fot a while ; and by the same reason a pastor of another flock or congregation may performe the office , and doe the acts of a minister in his congregation during absence : yea if for the good of the churches he be called away , doe not the churches stand obliged in conscience to provide that the flock sustain no hurt by his absence which possibly yee cannot doe if one minister may not performe a ministeriall act in another congregation . 7 if the prophets of one church may prophesy in another , and apply their doctrines , exhortations and prayers to any of the occasions of the churches where they speake , whereof they are not set members , what hinders why the pastor of one congregation , may not preach and pray , administer the sacraments in another ? the pastor of one congregation is appointed to his peculiar charge but he is a minister in the universall church , as well as the prophets of one church may bee called prophets of the universall church by vertue of that communion which all true churches have one with another . without consent the prophet may not prophesie by exhortation , and with consent the pastor may administer the sacraments . 8 in the primitive churches when elders were ordained in every city , they were not onely to looke to their flock but indeavour the conversion of poore infidels among whom they lived , and the inlargement of christs kingdome , for the worke of the lord must be done in its season , and then was the time of the calling of the gentiles : it was not their office proper and essentiall to travail from countrey to countrey as did the apostles , nor were they pastors of the infidels , but by private instruction and publique teaching ( if any of them would bee penitent ) they were to labour the comming of them to god. and these infidels converted to the saith were to be baptised of the elders ordinarily in those cities , though the number might bee so great as they could not well meete in one congregation , nor be subject to the same pastor ; for either they must bee baptized by the pastors among whom they lived , ( being converted to the faith ) or continue unbaptized untill they were a number convenient to make a distinct society , or grow together into one body , and to elect and choose their own minister by whom they may be baptised : but that either they must stay so long without baptisme , or that a society of unbaptised men had power in those times to elect and choose their minister , by whom they should be baptised is contrary to all presidents in scripture . 9 and so if a pastor may not performe a ministeriall act to any other person or people but his own flock onely , then a company newly converted from infidelity , which cannot joyne themselves as set members to another assembly , must remain unbaptised till they have chosen their minister to doe that office . then must the people thus converted want officers til there be among themselves able men to pray , preach , exhort in the congregation at the ordination of their minister , or ( if that may bee omitted ) till there be fit men among them to examine the fitnesse of him that is chosen . 10 if subtile heretikes arise , and seduce , and draw away many from the faith , and the body of the society be not able to convince them , either they must be let alone or cast out without conviction , for neighbouring ministers stand in peculiar relation to their flocks onely , and must not meddle beyond their calling according to your tenent . 11 there is no precept or example in scripture more to warrant the admitting of a set member of one congregation unto the supper in another , or the baptising of his child , occasionally in another assembly then there is for receiving of knowne and approved christians and their seede that are not set members . the pastor is no more the pastor of the one then of the other , nor the one more of his flock then the other , neither of them set members , and both sorts may be members for the time being , and they most properly who are of longest abode among them . but as we heare it is frequent among you ( as at dorchester , &c. ) to baptise the children of another assembly , and usually you admit to the supper of the lord , members of other churches , and therefore the minister is not so limited to his particular church or flock but he may dispence the seales to others , which in this consideration is denyed . 12 if the want of one officer in a congregation for a time may be supplyed by another , as the want of the doctor , ruling elder , or deacon , by the pastor ; why may not the defects of some congregation or christians be supplyed by pastors or ministers of another congregation , when they are requested and desired ? the minde herein is godly , and the means lawfull , and well pleasing unto god. 13 and if a synod consisting of sundry members of particular churches , met together in the name of christ about the common and publike affaires of the churches shall joyn together in prayer and communion of the supper , wee can see no ground to question it as unlawfull , although that assembly be no particular congregation or church , hath no pastor over them , make not one ecclesiasticall body as a particular congregationall church , unlesse it be for the time onely . the minister therefore may do an act of office to them that be not set members of his flock as he may stand in relation to them for the time . 14 your comparison betwixt an officer of a town corporate , and of a particular congregation is not alike , unlesse you will say that a member of another corporation occasionally comming into the towne , is thereby a member of that society , and subject to the authority of the officer . for so you professe that the members of one society may occasionally communicate with another , and so be subject to the pastor for the time being , which if you grant , it overthrows the whole strength of this consideration . howsoever the comparison it selfe is very perilous if it be pressed . for if the officer of a town corporate , presume to doe an act of power out of his owne corporation , it is a meer nullity , but if a minister of the gospell dispence the sacrament of baptisme , or the lords supper to believers of another society ( though done without consent ) it was never deemed or judged a nullity in the church of god. let the comparison hold good , and most christians have cause to question whether they be truly baptized , or ever lawfully received the sacrament of the lords supper . if it may not be doubted , whether ever the sacraments of the new testament were truly or by authority dispenced , especially if we consider what follows in the other considerations . this argument from comparison is very usuall in the writings of brethren against communion with our churches , but for the most part greatly mistaken , to say no more . answer 3 consideration . circumcision and the passoever were to be administred onely to the members of the church . ergo , baptisme and the lords supper is so to be administred also . the consequence is made good by the parity of these ordinances . for if the argument hold strong for the proofe of paedo-baptisme which is taken from the circumcision of infants , why may we not as well infer a necessity of church membership to baptisme , from the necessity of it to circumcision . and that circumcision was peculiar to the church members of the church , may appeare in that persons circumcised , & onely they , might eat the passeover , and they onely might enter into the temple , which were the priviledges of church members . in our answer to the second objection against the first consideration we have shewed that circumcision was not administred to all that were under the covenant of grace ( which all believers were ) but onely such of them as joyned themselves to the church , at first in abrahams family , whereunto baptisme doth so far answer that the apostle counteth these expresse equivalent to be circumcised in christ with circumcision made without hands , and to be buried with christ in baptisme . indeed , in somethings they differ as onely the males were circumcised , whereas with us females are also baptized . the reason is because god hath limited circumcision to the males , but under the gospel that difference is taken away . againe , circumcision was administred in the private family ; but baptisme , onely in the publick assemblies of the church . the reason of this difference is , because they were bound to circumcise the males on the eighth day , but that could not stand with going to the temple which was too far off , for the purpose , to bring every child thither from all parts of judaea to be circumcised the eighth day . nor had they alway opportunity of a solemne convention in the synagogue on every eighth day ; when some child or other might be to be circumcised . but there is no precise day set downe so baptisme , nor are opportunities of publick assemblies so remote where churches are kept in a congregationall frame , but that every first day of the week baptisme may be administred if it be required . again , for the aforesaid reason , circumcision required not a peculiar minister ( for ought we finde in scripture ) but it is not 〈◊〉 in baptisme , as was shewd in the second consideration . but no good reason can be given , why , in this they should not both agree , viz. that they are both to be dispensed onely to members of the visible church , as it hath been proved in the first consideration . reply . this whole reason as it is propounded makes onely against it selfe ; who eve● thought that the seals of the covenant were not proper to confederates or th● church of god ? but of old all visible believers under the covenant of grace walking in holinesse , were of the visible church , and in church order according to the dispensation of those times , though not joyned in externall society with the family of abraham . and to exclude melchisedeck or iob , because they were n●● members of the visible church , when yet they were visible believers under the covenant of grace , and in church order as those times required , is well-nigh a contradiction , and so it is to debar known and approved christians members of ou● congregation , and their seed from the seals , because they be not of the visible church , for they are members of the church , and so to bee held and esteemed all true churches and members of the church , the true & proper meaning of this consideration , is that as circumcision and the passeover were not to be dispensed to all visible believers under the covenant of grace , but onely to such as were joyned to abrahams family , or to the people of the god of abraham , no more may baptisme and the lords supper be administred to any believers now , unlesse they be joyned to some particular congregation in church membership , or unlesse by solemne covenant , they be set members of some particular assemblies . the strength of this consideration stands in the parity which is betwixt the sacraments of the old and new testament , circumcision and baptisme , for parum par est ratio , but this parity is not found in every thing ( as is manifest by the particulars alleadged in the consideration it self . ) and wee must justly require some reason to prove them like in that particular , but to unfold it more fully , we will consider three things . first , how far an argument may be drawn soundly from one sacrament to another , or wherein the sacraments agree , and wherein they differ . secondly , what wee are to think of the proposition it self . thirdly , whether the reason of circumcision and baptisme be one in that particular . first the sacraments of the old testament and the new agree in their common ●uthor , nature and end , and therfore what is spoken of one in respect of the common author , nature and end that doth hold true of everie one . if circumcision be of divine institution a seale of the righteousnesse of faith , and of the covenant of grace , a sacrament in generall is an ordinance divine , a seale of the covenant pro●er and peculiar to them that bee confederates . but what is peculiar to one sacrament that agreeth not to another . what is proper to the sacraments of the old te●●ament , in respect of the manner of dispensation that agreeth not to the new , as if ●he sacraments of the old testament be with bloud , obscure in signification , painfull ●or use , peculiar to one nation , and to bee abolished , the sacraments of the new testament must be without bloud , cleere for signification , easie for use , universall ●o all nations , and perpetuall to continue in the church for ever . circumcision and baptisme are both sacraments of divine institution , and so they ●gree in the substance of the things signified , the persons to whom they are to bee ●dministred , and the order of administration , if the right proportion bee observed . ●s circumcision sealed the entrance into the covenant the righteousnesse of faith , and ●ircumcision of the heart : so doth baptisme much more clearly : as abraham and ●is houshold , and the infants of beleiving iews were to be circumcised , so the faithful , ●heir families , and their seed are to bee baptized . none must eate the passeover who was not circumcised , women excepted , who were circumcised in the males . nor may a man unbaptized be admitted to the lords supper . circumcision was but once applied by gods appointment and the same holds in baptisme according to ●he will and good pleasure of god : but circumcision and baptisme agree not in ●heir speciall forme , and manner of dispensation appointed of god. and in these ●hings a reason cannot be drawn from the one to the other affirmatively . the males onely were to be circumcised as only capable of that signe : but males and females both ought to be baptized . the infants males were to be circumcised the eighth day because seaven dayes they were legally uncleane . but the seed of the faithfull are not to bee reputed uncleane . ergo , no set tyme is appointed for baptisme . circumcision as other ceremonies did distinguish the iewes from the gentiles ; but christ now of two hath made one . circumcision signified christ to come , baptisme is the seale of ●he new covenant made in christ already come . and so in the degree of grace given , some difference may be put : the other differences alleadged in the considerations with the reasons thereof are not so cleere and undoubted : for baptisme is not tyed to the first day of the weeke : and the jewes might gather an assembly on ●he eighth day as occasion required , and it might be appropriated to the priests and levites though done in private : but in whatsoever they agree or differ we must ●ooke to the institution and neither stretch it wider , nor draw it narrower then the lord hath made it . for hee is the institutor of the sacraments according to his owne good pleasure . and it is our part to learne of him , both to whom , how , and for what end the sacraments are to be administred , how they agree , and wherein they differ . in all which we must affirme nothing but what god hath taught us , and as he hath taught us . secondly , as for the proposition it selfe ; certaine it is , circumcision and the passeover were to be administred onely to the visible members of the church , i e. to men in covenant , professing the true faith ; but that in abrahams time none were visible members of the church , which joyned not themselves in church orders to the family of abraham , wee have not learned . in the first institution of circumcision , we find that god gave it to abraham , as the seale of the covenant formerly made with him : but of any church covenant or order whereunto abrahams family should enter before circumcision we read not . melchizedeck , lot , iob , &c. were not onely visible beleevers under the covenant of grace , but visible members of the church , according to the order and dispensation of those times . wee read not ( you say ) that melchizedeck , lot or iob were circumcised , but that is no good reason to inferre negatively that they were not circumcised . we read not that iohn the baptist , or the apostles , or the 500. brethren were baptized , wee must not forthwith conclude , that they were not initiated by that seale . moreover , if they were not circumcised , it may bee the institution of that sacrament was not knowne unto them , or the authour of circumcision ( upon whose will and pleasure they must depend ) did not command it unto them , or require that they should joyne themselves in covenant with abrahams family : and in that case if they had circumcised themselves they had transgressed . but then the reason why they were not circumcised was not this , that they were not ( as you speake ) in church order : but because circumcision was appropriated to abrahams family by divine institution in some speciall and peculiar respects belonging to the manner of administration . after the church of the jewes was constituted ( when wee can no more imagine that there was a church among the gentiles , then that there are christians among the barbarians at this day ) we finde none must be admitted to the passeover that was not first circumcised , but nothing was required of a stranger to circumcision , but that he professe the true faith , and a vouch the god of abraham to be his god , which of necessitie must be done before he could be reputed a visible beleever , or under the covenant of promise . thus a learned and reverend divine , circumcision was a seale of the covenant , that god made with abraham concerning christ that should come as concerning the flesh of isaac and so of iacob of whom were the 12 tribes who were the israelites , &c. rom. 9. 4. 5. so that as in abrahams time none were bound to be circumcised but those that were of his family as being borne there or bought , and so brought thither which were not of his seed : so afterwards none were bound to be circumcised which were not borne in the family of jacob and patriarchs , or joyned to them . and after their comming out of egypt none were bound to be circumcised but the children of the iewes ( then the only church of god , ) and those that desired to joyne unto them . the summe is thus much , god gave circumcision to abraham as a seale of the covenant but whether it was given to other beleevers in his time it is ( at least ) a thing uncertaine . and if they were not circumcised it was by reason of the speciall institution of god , and peculiar manner of administration of the covenant of promise which in some respect was proper , to the family of abraham , and not common to all the visible members of the church at that time in church fellowship and order . afterwards when there were none in covenant but the seed of iacob or strangers professing the faith of abraham , circumcision was not to be administred to any man who was not in covenant nor any man to bee admitted to the passeover who was not circumcised . this is the most that can be said with any probability : but hence it will not follow by iust analogie or proportion , that the seed of the faithfull must not bee admitted to baptisme , or visible beleivers be received to the lords supper unlesse they bee set members of some particular congregation united in church order . thirdly , presupposing therefore that melchizedeck , lot and iob , were not circumcised , we say there is not the like reason of circumcision and baptisme in this particular . for , first if circumcision was ever appropriated to the family of abraham , and might be communicated to other visible beleevers , it was in the first institution and administration ; but in the first institution and administration of baptisme , it was not observed that beleevers should be first gathered into a politicall body or christian church membership , and then baptized . iohn the baptist baptized such as came to him confessing their sins . the apostles baptized disciples , such as gladly received their doctrine , beleeved in jesus christ , and received the gifts of the holy ghost , before they were gathered into christian church order , or made fit members of a christian congregationall assembly . 2 if circumcision was by speciall institution given as a priviledge to the males of abrahams familie , melchizedecke , iob , lot , and other visible beleevers were not bound to joyne themselves as members to abrahams familie , or desire and seek to be circumcised : but they that have received the doctrine of salvation , beleeve christ , and professe the faith , are bound to seek , and desire the priviledge of the seals in an holy manner . 3. melchizedech , job , and lot were not onely visible beleevers , but visible members of the church , according to the manner of dispensing in those times : but the seals ( as you confesse ) belong to all beleevers knit together in church-covenant . 4. if circumcision be appropriated to the family of abraham , it is because the covenant sealed by circumcision is peculiar to abrahams posteritie , ( sc . ) that christ should come as concerning the flesh , of isaac . but baptisme is the seal of the covenant of grace without any peculiar or speciall tye or respect . 5. you contend , that baptisme did belong to such beleevers as were members of the then jewish church , which cannot stand , if abrahams familie did answer to a christian societie or congregationall assembly ; just reason therefore may be given why circumcision was dispensed onely to the males of abrahams familie , when baptisme is not to be limited onely to the set members of a particular societie ; and if this consideration be applied to the purpose , instead of saying , circumcision and the passeover were to be administred onely to the members of the church , you must say circumcision was to be desired of or administred unto all the true approved visible members of the church . and if there be the same reason of both , then all visible approved members of the church must not desire nor be admitted to the seals , but this conclusion you will not acknowledge . answ . 4. consideration . they that are not capable of the church censures , are not capable of the church priviledges . but they that are not within church-covenant are not capable of church censures . ergo. the proposition is evident , the assumption may be proved , 1 corinth . 5. 12. what have i to do to judge them that are without . now to be without is not onely the case of heathens and excommunicates , but of some beleevers also , who though by externall union with christ they are within the covenant of grace , yet being not joyned externally to the visible bodie of christ ( a particular church ) are in regard of visible church communion said to be without . to this purpose is this text alledged by other divines also , as dr. ames cas . of consci . l. 4. c. 24. q. 1. resp . 5. reply . first , men are capable of church censures in two respects , either in having the power of the keyes , and authoritie to dispense them according to god , or as subject to the censures of the church . in the first sense , many are capable of church priviledges that are not capable of church censures , as the seed of christian parents , children and women . you say you admit to the seales the knowne and approved , and orderly recommended members of any true church : but to fellowship in the censures , admittance of members , and choice of officers onely , the members of that particular church whereof they and we ( any of us ) stand members . in the second sense also many are capable of church priviledges who are not subject to church censures : as the children of christian parents are capable of baptisme , the known and approved members of any true church are capable of the seales in other congregations among you who are not subject to the censures of that other society . spirituall communion in publick prayer is a church priviledge , which is not denied to visible beleevers and godly persons , though not in church order , and so not in subjection in your sense to church censures . secondly , a person baptised is not baptised in that particular congregation onely , but into all churches , and every particular church where he cometh he hath all the priviledges of a baptised person in respect of his baptisme , and is so to be esteemed by them . now the priviledge of a baptised person who is able to examine himself , and walketh in the truth , is to be admitted to the lords supper . all circumcised persons had right thereby to eat the passeover in any societie , in the place which god should chuse to put his name there . exod. 12. 4. 47. deut. 16. 1 , 2. so all baptised persons have true and intire right to the lords supper in everie true church where god hath set his name . thirdly , there is not the same reason of every church priviledge , for one may have right to some , who is not to meddle with others . the members of one society may hear the word , joyne in prayer , and receive the sacraments in another , when they are not to meddle in the election and ordination of their teachers . the ministers of the gospel may preach the word , and administer the sacraments in another congregation , and hereto he needs no other calling but that god offers an opportunitie ; there is much need of his help , and he is intreated , or hath leave from them in place or office ; but he is not to admit members into the societie , or cast them out that be admitted . and if the pastor of one church shall preach or administer the sacraments in another , contrary to the liking and approbation of the society and governours , though the act be irregular , it was never esteemed a nullitie ; but if he shall presume to excommunicate the members of another societie , without the consent o● the church , and approbation of pastors and teachers , under whose charge and jurisdiction they live , it hath been judged a meer nullity . therefore the proposition is not so evident as to be taken without proofe , that they have no power to admit a beleever into communion in any church priviledge who have no power to excommunicate . fourthly , that visible beleevers baptised into a true church professing the true faith , and walking in holy obedience , and godly conversation , that they and their seed should be judged such as are without in the apostles sense , because they be not externally joyned as set members to some particular congregation in church-covenant is affirmed , not proved . 1. it hath , and may fall out many times through the ignorance , rashnesse , or pride of a prevailing faction in the church , that the true members of the catholique church , and the best members of the orthodox visible flock , or congregation of christ may be no members of any distinct visible societie . and shall their posteritie be esteemed aliens and strangers from the covenant , and debarred from the sacraments , because their parents are unjustly seperated from the inheritance of the lord ? surely as parents unjustly excommunicated do continue still not onely true members of the invisible body ; but visible members of the flock of christ : so the right of baptisme doth belong to the infants of such parents , though not actuall and constant members of this or that present assembly in church order . 2. if they be without , because no members of a politike bodie or spirituall fellowship : then all members which are of one societie are without to another : for they that be not of the bodie are not capable of church censures , or subject to the authoritie one of another . and so not being under the judgement of that particular church to it they are without ; whereas in ancient and moderne times distinct societies did communicate together , admit and receive each other as brethren , to testifie their fellowship in the faith . if the reason whereupon the apostle saith the church of corinth was not to judge them that were without , was because they were not within the church of corinth , and so not under their censure or judgement : this holds true of them that be of another society admitted to the sacrament , as well as of such as be no set members desiring to be received to the lords supper . 3. ( the fornicators of this world ) do they not explaine whom the apostle pointeth unto by the title of being without , ver . 10. 11. such as had not received the covenant of grace . 4. church order is necessarie we denie not ; but this order that a man should be a constant and set member of a particular societie by covenant , to make him a true member of the visible church , or to give him title or interest to the publick order , this is not taught of god. 5. paul divides all men into two ranks , the first and greater without ; the last and lesser within : but that beleevers who have received the holy ghost , and have been baptised into jesus christ , that they and their children should be reckoned among them that are without , that we read not in this nor any other scripture , but in phrase of scripture hereticks themselves are within the church . 6. the beleevers not yet gathered ( as the godly learned think ) into a certain distinct body are called beleevers , brethren , disciples ; but that they should be comprehended under them that are without , it hath not been beleeved in the church . 7. without ( saith the apostle whether alluding to this place or not , let others judge ) are dogs , inchanters , whoremongers , not such as are called faithfull and holy , walking in integritie , beleeving in and professing jesus christ to be their saviour . 8. they that are without in the apostes sense are aliens from the common-wealth of israel , strangers from the covenant of promise , having no hope , and without god in the world : but we hope you will not passe such rash and unadvised censure upon your brethren , who be not gathered into your societie as set members . 9. let the interpretation stand , and he is without , not onely who is no set member of some congregationall assembly , but he that is not subject to the censure of the community of that particular combination few or many , with , or without officers . and so all the reformed churches in the world who ascribe the power of the keyes to the presbitry or classes , and not to the community , and some amongst your selves ( if not the most ) shall be without also . and therefore we cannot think approved christians desiring to be received unto the sacrament , either to be without , or uncapable of church censures for the time being if they should offend , though not set members of any particular congregation : for desiring baptisme for their children or themselves to be admitted to the lords supper for the time they put themselves under the ordinance of jesus christ there . and as they are members for the time , so they might be proceeded against according to the rule prescribed by our saviour , as they would proceed with an offending member . 10. if upon just and good reason a passage of scripture can be cleared to prove that for which it was never alledged by any writer , we are not to except against any truth of god , because it wanteth mans testimonie . onely if we desire credit in such cases , our reasons must be weightie and convincing . but for your exposition of this text of scripture , as yet we have not observed one substantiall ground , or approved author to be alledged . doctor ames shewing the necessitie of christians ioyning themselves to some particular church , giveth this reason , quoniam alias fieri non potest qu●● conturbentur signa illa quibus fideles ab infidelibus discerni possunt . 1. cor. 5. 12. but herein dr. ames manifestly sheweth that by them that are [ without ] heathens , and unbeleevers must be understood , and not beleevers and godly men though of no particular setled societie for the time , for thus we conceive he argueth . the signes and evidences whereby the faithfull are to be discerned from unbeleevers , must not be confounded : but unlesse christians make themselves actuall members of a societie or church , the signes whereby the faithfull are discerned from unbeleevers , will be obscured and darkned . and if this be his reason how can that text of scripture be alledged for confirmation , unlesse by [ men without ] infidels be understood . again doctor ames in the same book , lib. 4. ca. 27. speaking of infants to be received , it is required ( he saith ) that they be in the covenant of grace in respect of outward profession , and estimation in respect of their parents , and that there is hope they shall be instructed and brought up in the same covenant . 2. that baptisme doth most properly belong to those infants whose parents , at least one of them is in the church , and not without , because baptisme is a signe and seale of the covenant of grace . 3. that children that are cast forth are in charitie to be esteemed the children of christian parents , when there is no just cause of presuming the contrary , that in admitting unto baptisme a difference must be put betweene the infants of those who in some sort belong to the church , but openly break the covenant of god , and the children of others . 1. because a distinction must be observed in holy things betweene the cleane and uncleane ; seeing else the ordinance of god cannot be preserved from all pollution . to say nothing of that which he addeth touching the baptisme of infants borne in fornication , excommunication , and papists , which is more then sufficient to cleare his meaning in the former passage . to this may be added that he holdeth it not necessarie that christians should gather themselves into a particular society , but as opportunitie and occasion should offer it self . so that it was never his mind to censure them who be not gathered into church-covenant , because they want means or opportunitie as men without in the apostles sense . his judgement is further manifested in his second manuduction , pa. 33. so many parish assemblies of england ( saith he ) as have any competent number of good christians in them , united to worship god ordinarily in one societie , so many have the essence and integrall forme of a visible church , and all they have intire right to christ , and to all the meanes of injoying him , how ever they are defective in the puritie of their combination , and in the compleat free exercising of their power , whereupon a reverend * elder now among you draws this conclusion , ergo to dischurch them wholly , and to separate from them as no churches of christ , or to denie baptisme to the infants of their known members is not warrantable by any rule of scripture that i know , nor justified by any assertion or practise . answ . 5. consideration . vve may adde hereunto for a fifth consideration , the evill and pernicious consequences of extending communion in church priviledges beyond the bounds of church fellowship : for thus , 1. the extraordinarie office of the apostles , and the ordinarie office of pastors and teachers will be much confounded , if the latter be as illimited as the former in the execution of their office beyond the bounds of their own particular churches . 2. the distinction of church assemblies from the confused multitude is abrogated , if without membership in a particular church the parents may communicate with the churches in the lords supper , and their seed in baptisme . 3. the church shall indanger the profaning of the seals , and want one speciall meanes whereby the grace and pietie of men may be discerned and made known ; for if without respect to their church estate men of approved pietie ( as you say ) are to be admitted to fellowship in the seales , how shall their pietie be approved to the church not by their own report of themselves alone without attestation of such as are approved by the church ; and how can such beare witnesse to their approved pietie , who against light refuse to professe subjection to the gospel of christ by orderly joyning themselves in fellowship with some approved church of christ as members thereof when they have opportunitie thereunto , seeing such fellow-ship is an action of pietie required of all beleevers in the second commandment ; and true pietie frameth mens spirits to have respect to all gods commandments . and we have had much experience of it , that men of approved pietie in the judgement of some have been found too light , not onely in the judgement of others , but even of their own consciences , when they have come to triall in offering themselves to be members of churches , with such a blessing hath god followed this order of taking hold of church-covenant by publick profession of faith and repentance before men be admitted to the seales ; but this meanes of discoverie of mens pietie and sinceritie would be utterly lost , if men should be admitted unto the lords table without entring in church-fellowship . reply . if it be repugnant to divine institution to admit of approved christians lawfully baptized , walking in the faith , members of the visible churches , and partakers of church priviledges among us to the lords supper , or their children to baptisme , because they be not entred into church fellowship according to your order , then it is unlawfull though no such evill consequences are to be feared . but if by accident some abuse should fall out , the evill is to be prevented by all lawfull meanes : but the faithfull are not utterly to be debarred of the order of god , whereto they have right and title by his free grant and gracious invitation . and no question but the seales of the covenant may be profaned many times when it is not in the power of the dispensers to put back or expell such as profane them . if the congregation shall admit of , or tolerate an unworthy member , the churches priviledges are profaned ; and yet we conceive you will say the pastor is not faulty in receiving him , when the church doth tolerate unworthily , if he do what pertaineth to his office to keep the holy things of god from contempt . but in the case propounded there is no feare or danger of such consequences necessarie to follow : for the question is not of all sorts at randame , but of christians professing the faith intirely , lawfully baptised , known , and approved to the consciences of the wise and judicious visible members of the churches of christ among us often admitted to the lords table , whether these either sufficiently knowne unto you , or orderly recommended may upon desire and suite themselves be admitted to communicate in the lords supper , and their children to be baptized , what feare is there now that the extraordinarie office of the apostles , and the ordinarie office of pastors and teachers shall be much or little confounded ? is this to take as illimited power as the apostles did in the execution of their office ? how shal this tend to abrogate the distinction of church assemblies from the confused multitude ? or how is the profanation of the seals thereby indangered ? you aske if without respect to their church estate men of approved pietie ( as we say ) are to be admitted into fellowship in the seals , how shall their pietie be approved to the church , not by their own report of themselves alone , &c. do not you say the same , that there be many godly persons , and of approved pietie among us , who are not approved by their own report of themselves ( unlesse ye will take their wisedome , faith , patience , courage , constancie , and holinesse of life for their report ) approved , we say by as ample and sufficient testimonie as the apostles exacted of them whom they received into church fellowship , or can be required of members admitted unto the priviledges of the church , if men will follow the lords direction , or as you can give to ordinances members of your societies . you professe high respect of your brethren in old england , but it seemes you judge them insufficient to give orderly testimonie of the sinceritie and uprightnesse of approved christians , well known unto them , and living among them , which two cannot well agree . we speake not of such who against light refuse to professe subjection to the gospel of christ to joyne themselves orderly in fellowship with some approved church : but of such as do with all readinesse professe subjection , and walk accordingly , and heartily desire to joyn themselves to the most pure and compleat churches so farre as they are taught of god , or have opportunitie thereunto . and if exception be taken against them onely , who refuse against light to submit themselves to the gospel ; by what rule do you proceed when you judge men to refuse against light , or debarre them who do not refuse against conscience , but for lacke of opportunitie . no doubt ( as you say ) but now and then a man of approved pietie in the judgement of some may be found too light , yea and in the judgement of his owne conscience when he hath come to triall . and no question but many have been admitted by the church , who indeed and truth are much too light ; and some refused who deserved better then they that cast them off , we will not dispute what errours have been committed , nor what blessing ye have found upon your proceedings ; we heartily beseech the lord to keep your congregation pure , make his ordinances more and more effectuall , go before you in the way wherein you should walk , and multiply his mercies upon you in the same . but this we are perswaded , and therefore we speak , that in debarring godly christians from the lords supper , and much more the children of those parents who are in covenant with god , from holy baptisme you exceed your commission you have received from god , and go beyond your due bounds . and notwithstanding your circumspection more worthy and faithfull christians have been denied when of lesse worth , and meaner sufficiencies have passed , and been by you received . answ . 6. consid . none have power to dispence the seales but they that are called to the office of ministery ; and no man can be so called till first there be a church to call him , seeing the power of calling ministers is given by christ unto the church ; and thence it follows , that all those that desire to partake of the seales , are bound to joyne themselves in church state , that so they may call a minister to dispense the seales unto them . and this dutie by the appointment of god lieth not onely upon some christians , but equally upon all : ergo no christian can expect by the appointment of god to partake in the seals till he have joyned himselfe in church fellowship , and in the call of the minister . and indeed seeing a church , and a minister called by the church , is of such necessitie for the dispensing of the seales , it may seeme unreasonable that some christians should be bound to become a church , and to call a minister that so the seales may be dispensed , and other men ( when this is done ) have equall libertie to the seals who refuse to joyne unto the church . reply . this conclusion is not to the question propounded , for we speake of such as cannot , not of such as refuse to joyne themselves unto the church ; or if they do not joyne , it is not out of contempt or wilfull neglect of gods ordinance , or desire of carnall libertie , and not to be in subjection to christ , but for lacke of opportunitie , or through their fault that should admit them but do not . for if in any of your churches you shall require more of members to be admitted then christ the chiefe shepherd of the flock doth , or presse that upon their consciences which they cannot consent unto , if they shall sit downe quietly for the time and serve god in private , when they cannot injoy church priviledges , it is your fault and not theirs . and they may more justly challenge the assemblie as injurious and tyrannicall , then you them as wilfull despisers of gods ordinance . we accuse not the wisedome and discretion of your chuches , but we know the zealous multitude may sometimes be rash ; and when a reason is craved of your judgement , why you do debarre the most knowne and approved christians which come over , and their children from the seals of the covenant , we dislike you should put this note upon them , as if against light they refused orderly to subject themselves to the gospel of jesus christ : what warrant you have thus to censure , what use of this manner of dispute we leave it to your godly wisedome to judge . in the consideration it self there are many propositions couched together , which we must examine severally as they have reference to the conclusion intended , and then try whether it can be raised from them . the first proposition , that none have power to dispence the seales , but they that are called to the office of ministery , is freely granted . the second , that no man can be so called till first there be a church to call him , needeth explication . for by the church you must understand the community of the faithfull , as they are one bodie , without officers or guides . and such a church there cannot be without a ministery to call and admit them into church-fellowship . the apostles baptised not themselves , but by the help of others , & those not called of the people to be baptised , 1 cor. 1. 17. the apostles appointed by electiō , elders in every city or church . and so there was a church before elders were set over it , but this church was a societie of beleevers by baptisme admitted into church-fellowship . there can be no church to call a minister to feed the flock , and dispence the seals , till they have received the doctrine of salvation intirely , and by the seale of initiation be solemnly received into the societie of men professing christ . a company of men converted to the faith being unbaptized , may and ought to desire baptisme , but they have not power to elect and chuse one among themselves to dispence the seales unto the rest for ought is to be found in scripture : the churches constitution into which christians are to gather themselves must be apostolicall , and not one day or houre younger in nature and forme of it , thus the first church of the new testament . but it can never be shewed in scripture that any societie of unbaptised persons did first chuse from among them a pastor or teacher by whom they might be baptised : you cannot produce one example or other proofe in the scripture , of one man teaching the gospel ministerially but he was baptised , and a member of a true church , or of a societie who made choice of a pastor and teacher , but they were baptised persons . the third proposition , that the power of calling ministers is given by christ unto the church , must also be rightly understood : for by the church must be meant the societie of the faithfull , not onely ingrafted into christ , set into the state of salvation , and made heires apparent of everlasting blessednesse , but solemnly entred and inrolled into the societie of christs flock , and acknowledged members by free admission into the seales of the covenant . againe , by the church if we speake of ordinary calling , must not be understood of the faithfull alone , but their guides and officers together with them , who are to goe before the rest , and to direct and governe them in their choice . neither can we say , that any two or three beleevers linked together in societie doe make such a church , as to whom the calling of the minister doth belong : but that right was given by christ to such churches as were gathered and established by the apostles . the church hath a ministery of calling one whom christ hath described , that from christ he may have power of office given him in the vacant place . but the office , gift , and power of the ministery , is immediately from christ and not from the church . the church doth neither virtually nor formally give power to her officers but ministerially onely , as ministring to him who hath power and vertue to conferre it . and this right of election is so given to the communitie and body of the people , that if they have consented to give away their right , or if it be taken injuriously from them , the calling of the minister notwithstanding may be true , and ministeriall acts done by him that is thrust upon the people without their consent may be effectuall to their salvation . a wrong it is altogether to debarre the godly of their consent in the calling of such as must watch for their soules ; but it makes not the calling it selfe a meere nullitie ; for then many churches in the world within a few hundred yeares after christ should have wanted both ministery and sacraments , and they would have been altogether destitute of both ministery and sacraments for many hundred yeares . the fourth , that all those who desire to partake in the seales , are bound to joyne themselves together in church-state , that so they may call a minister to dispence the seales unto them , will not follow from the former rightly understood . we deny not but christians are bound to joyne themselves together in holy fellowship , if god give them opportunitie : but they must partake in the seales before they can joyne themselves together in church-state . and such as for lack of meanes and opportunitie cannot joyne themselves into such an estate , or be dispersed by persecution , or be destitute of pastors and teachers , may for a time desire and seek to have the seales dispenced unto them by the pastors and teachers of other societies , with whom they hold communion in the faith . the people also who are deprived of right and libertie to choose their pastor , may desire and seek to have the seales dispenced unto them by him who is set over them . if a company of infidells should be converted to the faith , they must desire to partake in the ordinances of grace before they could joyne together in a church-way to call a minister of their own , who might administer the sacraments unto them . to make disciples and baptize are joyned together . and if these propositions be allowed for current , a nation or people plunged into idolatry or infidelitie , or otherwise dischurched , cannot by ordinary meanes recover into a church-estate , wherein they may lawfully and according to gods appointment desire or expect that the seales of the covenant should be dispenced to them . the fifth proposition riseth beyond measure , that no christian can expect by the appointment of god to partake in the seales till he have joyned himselfe in church-fellowship and the calling of the minister . wee conceive you will not say that children and women have to doe in the call of the minister ( for women they are debarred by their sex as from ordinary prophesying , so from any other dealing wherein they take authority over the man ) if some part of the congregation doe not consent in the election of pastors or teachers , have they not right to expect to have the seales of the covenant dispenced to themselves or their seede ? if the people be deprived of that libertie to choose or call their minister , must they seperate from the ordinances of worship there dispenced , and from the congregations as no true churches ? if some persons by the providence of god live in such places where they cannot joyne in church-fellowship and call of the minister ( as suppose the christian wife , childe , or servant ) nor lawfully remove to any such societie must they and their children live as strangers and aliens from the covenant of grace , wherein they may not expect to partake of the seales ▪ if infidels be converted to the faith , must they not partake in the seales , because they cannot joyne in church-fellowship and call of the minister , before they be admitted to baptisme ? here you say the people must joyne together in the call of the minister , before they can lawfully desire to be admitted to the seales . and another hath zealously affirmed ( it is a presumptuous sin in any to choose an officer not trained up and tryed ( scil . ) in the debating , discussing , carrying , and contriving of church-affaires , as also in admonition , exhortation , and comfort , publickly occasioned and so manifested ) lay these two together , and let it be considered how long many a poore soule converted to the faith must be compelled to want the comfort of gods ordinances . besides , if a people be joyned together in church-fellowship , and have called a pastor to feed and watch over them , wee desire ( not words but ) proofe why the poore dispersed christians wanting means or opportunitie to joyn themselves together into societie , ought not to desire , and that others be not bound in conscience to afford them the comfort of gods ordinances . if the propositions may stand for good , i feare we shall scarce finde that ever in ordinary way , the sacraments were lawfully dispenced or received in the christian churches of god since the first foundation of them . now the premises being liable to so many exceptions , the conclusion to be laid upon them , will fall of it selfe . and thereunto wee oppose the direct contrary . that infidels converted to the faith , or godly christians , formerly visible beleevers , knowne and approved members of congregations professing the intire faith , and joyning together in the lawfull use of the sacraments for substance according to the institution , may and ought to desire and expect the seales of the covenant to be dispenced to them , and to their seede , though for the present they be not joyned into such church-state and call of ministers as you require . answer 7. consideration . that our practise may not be censured as novell and singular , give us leave to produce a president of the like care observed and approved by publick countenance of state in the dayes of edward 6. of blessed and famous memory , who in the yeare 1550. granted johannes alasco a learned noble man of poland under the great seale of england , libertie to gather a church of strangers in london , and to order themselves according as they should finde to be most agreeable to the scriptures . among other godly orders established in that church , that which concerned the administration of baptisme to prevent the prophanation of it we will repeate in alascoes owne words . baptisme in our church ( saith he ) is administred in the publique assembly of the church after the publique sermon : for seeing baptisme doth so belong to the whole church that none ought to be driven thence , which is a member of the church , nor to be admitted to it who is not a member of it , truely it is equall that that should be performed publiquely in the assembly of the whole church , which belongs to the whole church in common . againe , he addeth ; now seeing our churches are by gods blessing so established by the kings majestie , that they may be as it were one parish of strangers dispersed throughout the whole citie , or one body corporate ( as it is called in the kings grant ) and yet all strangers doe not joyne themselves to our church , yea there are those who while they avoyde all churches , will pretend to the english churches that they are joyned with us , and to us that they are joyned to the english churches , and so doe abuse both them and us , lest the english churches and the ministers thereof should be deceived by the impostures of such men ( and that under colour of our churches ) wee doe baptize their infants alone who have adjoyned themselves to our churches by publique confession of their faith , and observation of ecclesiasticall discipline . and that our churches may be certaine that the infants that are to be baptized are their seede , who have joyned themselves thereto in manner aforesaid , the father of the infant to be baptized ( it possible he can ) or other men and women of notable credit in the church , doe offer the infant to baptisme , and doe publickly professe that it is the seede of the church , yet wee suffer no stranger to offer infants to baptisme in our churches , who hath not made publique profession of his faith , and willingly submitted himselfe to the discipline of the church , lest otherwise they who present their children to baptisme , might in time plead that they belong to our churches , and so should deceive the english churches and their ministers . to those which presented infants to baptisme , they propounded three questions , the first was ; are these infants which yee offer the seed of this church , that they may lawfully be here baptized by our ministery ? &c. answer , yea. this instance is the more to be regarded , because alasco affirmeth in the preface of that book , that this libertie was by the king granted to them out of his desire to settle alike reformation in the english churches , which in effect you see the same with our practise in this particular . reply . the practise of the church of strangers in london , recorded by john alasco , is farre different from your judgement and practise , not in some by-circumstances , but in the maine point in question ; for your judgement is that true visible beleevers , baptized and partakers of the lords supper in other churches not yet gathered into church-estate or fellowship , have no right or interest in the seales , ( they nor their seede ) but this church of strangers held no such opinion as their own words ( which you have omitted ) doe plainly speake . and paul testifyeth ( say they ) that by christs ordinance the church it selfe without exception of any member of it , is to be accounted cleane or holy by the ministery of baptisme . whence we may easily see , that baptisme doth neither belong to those who are altogether without the church , nor to be denyed to any member of the church . secondly , they held communion with the church of england as one and the same with theirs . for so they professe : yet neverthelesse , that we may openly shew that the english churches and ours are one and the same church ( though we differ somewhat from them both in language and ceremonies ) we doe not refuse that the english may as publick witnesses of the church offer the infants of our members to baptisme in our churches , if they have both the use of our language and a certain testimony of their piety . as in like manner our members are accustomed to offer the infants of the english to baptisme in the english churches . if your judgement be this of the english churches , your judgement in acknowledging us members of true churches , and practise in debarring visible beleevers and their seede from the seales , are opposite the one to the other . thirdly , this order was observed by them to prevent the impostures of some , who whilst they avoyded all churches , pretended to the english , that they were joyned to the strangers , and to the strangers that they were joyned to the english . but you debarre knowne christians who desire to joyne themselves with you , not to prevent impostures of them who avoyde all churches : yea , you debarre them as men having no right to the sacraments , because they be not in church-fellowship : and herein you can shew no president ancient or moderne , either from scripture or monuments of the church : and as your practise is without example , so without warrant from the word of god. and this is the maine reason why we cannot consent unto you in this particular which we thus propound . 1 reason . that sacred order which god hath set in his visible church for all his saints to keep and walk by , that is religiously to be observed . but for men to set up that as a necessarie order which god never allowed , approved , or commanded , is great presumption . now the lord hath not ordained that a man should be a set member of a particular societie , or body politique of faithfull people joyned together in spirituall church-fellowship by covenant , before he be admitted unto the lords supper , or that the parents should be actuall visible set members of some particular distinct body before their children be baptised . they that beleeve in jesus christ have received the word of promise and walk therein , they and their children are within the covenant , and have right and title to the seales of the covenant , but in their order , the infants to baptisme , parents baptised , to the lords supper . and if in that state by divine grant they have interest to the sacraments , the church in debarring them because they be not yet grown into one distinct separate societie of mutuall covenant , doth exceed the bounds of her commission . for a ministeriall power onely is committed to the church to admit or refuse them who are to be admitted or refused by authoritie from god : but the church if she thrust beleeving parents from the supper of the lord , and their seed from baptisme ; she denieth these benefits to them who by the grace and gift of god have lawfull right and title thereto . 1. for first , the baptisme of john was true baptisme , and truly administred by him : and they that were baptized by him received the seales of the covenant , and were esteemed members of the visible church : but john never demanded of them who came to his baptisme whether they were entred into spirituall fellowship by mutuall covenant one with another . this was not then knowne to be a necessarie and essentiall point in the lawfull , due , and orderly administration of the sacrament . the disciples of our saviour made and baptised disciples professing the faith , but not combined into church-state or fellowship . the apostles commission was first to teach the gentiles , and then to baptise them having received their doctrine . and this they carefully observed in the execution of their ministery upon grounds and reasons common to them and us : for as soone as any man or number of men gladly received the doctrine of salvation , and gave their names to jesus christ , if they desired to be baptised forthwith they accepted them , never excepting , that they were no set members of a distinct visible congregation . when the first 3000. converts , being pricked in their consciences , came to peter , and the rest of the apostles , saying . men and brethren , what shall we do ? peter returns this answer , repent and be baptised every one of you in the name of jesus , &c. for to you is the promise made , and to your children , and to all that are afar off , &c. as soon as the samaritanes beleeved , philip who preached the things that concerned the kingdom of god , they were baptised both men and women . when the eunuch asked of philip , see here is water , what doth let me to be baptised ? he answereth not if thou beest first received as a set member into a visible congregation thou mayest : but if thou beleevest with all thy heart , thou mayest . can any man forbid water ( saith peter , speaking of the gentiles upon whom was powred the gift of the holy ghost ) that these should not be baptised who have received the gift of the holy ghost as well as we ? at that time it was not held a bar sufficient to keep them from the sacrament of baptisme , because they were not set members of a distinct societie , which had it been essentiall to the lawfull and orderly administration of the sacraments , questionlesse it had been observed in the first institution and administration of them . annanias baptised paul before he was any set member of a congregationall assembly . lydia and her houshold , the jaylor and his house were baptised without regard to their church-estate . for in the same night which he was converted , he was baptized with all his houshold . and this was done not by the apostles onely upon speciall dispensation , but by others upon grounds and reasons common to them , and all ages , viz. because they were disciples , beleeved , gladly received the word , had received the holy ghost , were called , and the promise was made to them , and to their seed , even to all them that were afarre off . now if the apostles dispensed the seales to them that were not in church-fellowship upon common grounds , it is not essentiall to the lawfull dispensation of the seales , that all partakers should be under such a covenant . if the baptised disciples , beleevers , such as gladly received the word , and had received the gift of the holy ghost , then the seals of the covenant belong unto such , and by the grace of god they have right and title unto those priviledges . 2. as we received the sacraments from god by divine institution ; so must we learne from him , how and to whom the same are to be administred , observing what he hath commanded without addition or diminution . but we have learned from christ the author of baptisme , and the constant practise of the apostles ( the first dispensers of these holy seales who best understood the mind and pleasure of the lord herein ) that such as be called of god to whom the promise is made , who have received the gifts of the holy ghost , beleeved in the lord jesus , professed their faith in him , and repentance for sins past with purpose of amendment for the time to come , that such have right unto , and desiring it ought to be received unto baptifme , and are greatly wronged if they be deprived of that unspeakable benefit . 3. by a lively faith a man is made a living member of jesus christ , and hath internall communion with him by the intire profession of christian faith joyned with conformity of life in righteousnesse , and holinesse , and fellowship of love , he is a member of the visible congregation or flock of christ , though no set member of a free distinct independant societie . and baptisme is the seale of our admission into the congregation or flock of christ ; but not evermore of our receiving into this or that particular societie as set members thereof . this latter is accidentall to baptisme , not essentiall . it may fall out to be so , but it is not ever necessarie ; nor is the sacrament to be denyed , nor can we say it is imperfectly administred where it cannot be attained . for the catholique church is one intire bodie , made up by the collection and agregation of all the faithfull unto the unity thereof ; from which union there ariseth unto every one of them such a relation to , dependance upon that church catholique as parts use to have in respect of the whole . and this holds true , not onely of sound beleevers in respect of internall fellowship with christ their head , and so one with another ; but of all men professing the true and intire doctrine of faith and salvation in respect of them that hold and professe the same faith of christ , and worship god according to his will ; whereupon it followeth that neither particular persons , nor particular guides , nor particular churches are to worke as severall divided bodies by themselves , but are to teach , and be taught ; and to do all other duties as parts conjoyned to the whole , and members of the same flock or societie in generall : and so beleevers professing the faith , and walking in holinesse , may and ought to be admitted to the seales as actuall members of the church of christ , and sheep of his pasture , though not set members of one congregationall church . 4. not to insist upon this here , that it hath and may fall out many times through ignorance , rathnesse , or pride , of a prevailing faction in the church , that the true members of the catholique church , and the best members of the orthodox visible flock , or church of christ , may be no actuall members of any distinct societie , and shall they for this be accounted men out of covenant , and their posteritie be esteemed aliens and strangers : but if they be in covenant , then are they holy in respect of the covenant , and their children holy as pertaining to the covenant , and have right to the sacrament of initiation . thus mr. rob. frameth the argument . the sacrament of baptisme is to be administred by christs appointment , and the apostles example onely to such as are ( externally , and so far as men can judge ) taught and made disciples , do receive the word gladly , do beleeve , and so professe , have received the holy ghost , and to their seed . and thus the church of god ever since the apostles dayes understood the covenant and promise , and their practise in receiving beleevers and their seed to the seales of the covenant was answerable , as might be shewed at large , if it was not a thing confessed . hereunto you answer . answer . vvhere the holy ghost is given and received ( which was the case of the centurion ) and where faith is professed according to gods ordinance ( which was the case of the rest ) there none may hinder them from being baptised , viz. by such as have power to baptise them . in the instances given baptisme was administred either by apostles or evangelists , not ordinary pastors : the persons baptised , if they were members of churches , had a right to baptisme in their state , and the apostles being officers of all churches might dispense the seales to them where ever they came , which yet will not warrant ordinary officers to do the same . nor is it improbable but that all these were in church-order , aret , on act. 18. 1. is of opinion , that the centurion had a constituted church in his house ; the eunuches coming to jerusalem to worship , argueth him to be a proselyte , and member of the jewish church not yet dissolved : and therefore upon the profession of the christian faith capable of church priviledges at that time . as for lydia and the gaylor it appeareth that in the beginning of the gospel there was a church at philipp● which communicated with paul as concerning giving and receiving : as he expresly saith , before his departure was from macedonia , which departure was immediately upon the gaylors conversion . in which respect what should hinder that lydia and the gaylor should first be joyned to the church , and then to be baptised though it be not mentioned in that story ? as neither there is mention of a christian church , which paul mentioneth in his epistle to the philippians . at least it is probable that lydia was a member of the jewish church , because she is said to be one that worshipped god. but if any man think they were not members of any church yet baptised , though we see not how it will be proved , yet if it were so , the object doth no whit weaken the argument , which speaketh of the ordinary dispensation of the seales , and not of what was done in an extraordinary way . so that suppose that in the cases alledged , baptisme dispensed to some that were not in church-fellowship , yet the examples of the apostles and evangelists in so doing will not warrant ordinary pastors to do the like . the reason of the difference why apostles and evangelists might administer baptisme out of church-order , whereas pastors and teachers may not , is double . 1. because their calling gave them illimited power over all men , especially christians wheresoever they came . but we do not find that ordinarie pastors and teachers can do an act of power , but onely over their own church , which hath called them to watch over them in the lord. 2. because they were assisted with an immediate direction and guidance of the holy ghost , in the places of their administration in the cases alledged . but ordinary church-officers are to walke according to ordinary rules of the scripture in the dispensation of the seales , and not to expect immediate inspirations and extraordinary revelations for their helpe in such cases . this difference between apostles and ordinary church officers must needs be acknowledged , or otherwise a man might from their example justifie baptisme in private houses . reply . this answer stands of many parts , wherein things doubtfull are affirmed , and that which more weakeneth the force of the consideration before alledged , and the answer it selfe , then of the reason whereunto it is applyed . for first , if where the holy ghost is given and received , and where faith is professed according to gods ordinance , there none may hinder them from being baptized , viz. by such as have power to baptize them : then either men that have received the holy ghost , and professe the faith , be members of the church , or baptisme is not a priviledge of the church , then it is not essentiall to the first institution of baptisme , that it should be dispenced to none but such as were entered into church-fellowship , or were set members of a congregationall assembly . then the apostles in dispensing the seales unto such , or commanding them to be dispenced , did walk according to the rules of scripture , and upon grounds common to them and us , viz. they admitted them unto the sacraments who had right and interest to them , according to the minde and pleasure of the institutor , not extraordinarily revealed , besides the common rules , or by speciall dispensation and prerogative excepted from the common rule , but made knowne in the institution it selfe . and then the difficultie remaining is onely this , whether a pastor or teacher hath authority from christ to dispence the seales of the covenant to one who hath right and title to them , and doth orderly desire that benefit because he is not as yet received as a set member of that particular societie which your practise in admitting of set members of other congregations unto the seales doth manifestly convince . for if both have equall interest unto the seales , the pastor upon lawfull suite and request hath equall authoritie to receive the one as well as the other . secondly , in the particular instances given , it is not probable that baptisme was evermore administred by apostles or evangelists ; for before the death of christ , the disciples baptized when they were properly neither apostles nor evangelists : after the death of christ ( not to insist upon conjectures whether any assisted the apostles in the baptizing of the first three thousand converted ) it is not certaine , whether peter baptized cornelius and his family , or commanded others then present with him to baptize them : the words may be read : et jussit eos baptizari in nomine domini . syr. & arab. praecepit eis ut baptizarentur . the interlineary glosse leaveth it doubtfull , associis suis vel a scipso . others are of opinion that peter did baptize them himselfe . it cannot be proved that philip and ananias were both evangelists , when the one baptized the samaritans and the eunuch , the other paul. paul himselfe baptized but a few as he testifieth of himselfe , and reason to convince that others converted by his preaching were baptized by evangelists , we know not any . and if philip , ananias , and others might baptize such as had right and title to the seales , being as yet no set members of any particular congregation : and a congregation destitute of their proper pastor , may desire another to baptize their infants , and dispence the sacrament of the supper to them in that their necessitie . and if the members of one congregation may lawfully communicate in another , then may the pastors of particular congregations upon occasion admit to the seales of the covenant such known and approved christians , as have right and title thereunto , and duely and orderly require the same ; for of all these the reason is like and perpetuall . thirdly , it is very improbable that the persons baptized , were in church-state or order . if they were members of the jewish church not yet dissolved , this is not to the purpose ; for men have not right to baptisme , because they were members of the jewish church , but because disciples and ( as you say ) joyned together in covenant , and have fellowship and calling of their minister , who is to dispence the seales unto them . and baptisme is the sacrament of initiation , not into the jewish but the christian churches . secondly , when you say , the seales in ordinary dispensation are the priviledges of the churches . there are no ministers but of particular churches . baptisme and the lords supper are to be administred onely to the members of the church . no societie may lawfully desire the seales , unlesse they have joyned in the choice and calling of their minister . beleevers not yet joyned in church-order are without . doe yee not in all these understand a christian societie , united in a church-way , &c. which cannot agree to the members of the jewish church , not yet dissolved . thirdly , the constitution of the church ( saith mr. robin . ) is the orderly collection and conjunction of the saints into and in the covenant of the new testament ; but the members of jewish churches not yet dissolved , were not in such constitution . if the eunuch and centurion were proselytes and members of the church of the jewes ; the samaritanes whom philip baptized were not so . and that any gentiles , or the gailor whom paul baptized in the apostles times , were set members of a christian assembly before baptized , is very strange if there was a church at philippi , yet the gailor who was baptized and converted the same night , could not be a set member by solemne admission before baptisme . it is said the apostles baptized these persons in an extraordinary way . but in this practise of the apostles two things are to be considered . 1. the circumstance of the action . 2. the qualitie or substance of the act . in some circumstances the baptizing of some of these persons might be extraordinary , but the substance and qualitie of the action was grounded upon rules perpetuall and common to us with them . 1. that is done in an extraordinary way , which by peculiar priviledge of dispensation is made lawfull to some one or few men , which is unlawfull to all others , not having the same dispensation , but where the ground and reason of the action is common : we must not conceive the thing to be done in an extraordinary way by speciall dispensation . what was done by the apostles upon speciall revelation and immediate direction , besides the ordinary and common rule , in that wee are not to immitate or follow them , because we have not their warrant . but what they did upon reasons and grounds reaching unto us no lesse then unto them , in that we have the same libertie , allowance , or commandement that they did walk by . in one and the same action there may be and oft is something ordinary , something extraordinary or peculiar to speciall times or persons . so it was in the apostles administration of the seales : but in every place where they came by illimited power ( as you speake ) they did baptize disciples , if they did baptize ; this was proper to them , and could not be communicated to any others by them ; for there is no passage of scripture which teacheth this , that one officer may communicate his power to another , or doe that which particularly belongeth to his office by a deputie : but that they baptized beleevers professing their faith in the lord jesus , and repentance towards god , such as had gladly imbraced the word , and received the gifts of the holy ghost : this was common to them with all pastors and teachers , because they did it , not by power illimited or speciall dispensation , but upon this standing perpetuall reason , that the promise was made to them and to their seede , and to as many as the lord shall call , that they had received the holy ghost , and the kingdome of heaven belonged to them . and if the grounds and reasons of their practise be common reaching to us , no lesse then unto them , the practise it selfe was not extraordinary . to say nothing that this answer will not stand with the former ; for if the parties baptized were set members of particular societies , the apostles did not baptize them in an extraordinary way , they did it by the guidance and direction of the spirit , that is true , but not by guidance of dispensation , or prerogative , whereby that was made lawfull without such inspiration had been unlawfull . but they were infallibly guided to doe that which was according to the word of god , and might stand for our direction : that in case it be orderly desired a pastor hath authoritie in his owne congregation , to receive knowne and approved christians to the seales of the covenant , hath been proved before . if the apostles dispenced the seales onely to the church , disciples , faithfull , who received the doctrine of salvation with gladnesse of heart , and were partakers of the holy ghost , then they dispenced the seales in an ordinary way , for such have title and interest to the seales by the institution and appointment of god. and every pastor by his office may and ought to dispence the seales unto such , within the bounds and limits of his calling : but the apostles dispenced the seales onely to the church , disciples , faithfull , &c. 2. an argument followeth necessarily from particular example to a generall ; when one particular is proved by another particular , by force of the similitude common to the whole kinde , under which those particulars are contained : but the practise of the apostles in baptizing disciples and faithfull , by force of similitude common to the whole kinde , agreeth with the practise of ministers receiving to baptisme the seed of the faithfull , though as yet not set members of any particular societie , in some circumstances there may be difference when yet the reason is strong , if the difference be not in the very likenesse it selfe whereupon the reason is grounded . one circumstance that is materiall to the point may overthrow the likenesse pretended , and twenty different circumstances , if they be not to the point in hand make no dissimilitude . now in this matter wee speake of , no circumstance is or can be named why we should thinke it lawfull for the apostles to baptize disciples as yet being no set members of particular societies , and the same should be unlawfull in all cases for ordinary pastors in their particular congregations , though it be desired . 3. what is done by extraordinary dispensation , that is lawfull for them onely who have received such dispensation , and by them cannot be communicated to others . but the apostles baptized by others seldome by themselves , as hath been shewed . 4. we might urge the rule which a reverend elder among you , giveth in another matter , ( scil . ) those examples which are backed with some divine precept , or which are held forth in the first institution of an ordinance , being part of the institution , or which were the constant lawfull actions of holy men in scripture , not civill but sacred so binde us to imitation , as that not to conforme thereunto is sinne . for the assumption to this proposition , it is plaine and naturall : but the practise of the apostles in receiving the faithfull , disciples , &c. is backed with divine precept , held forth in the first institution , and was their constant lawfull practise , agreeable to the practise of all others who were imployed in that service ; ergo , &c. 5. in the first consideration , you prove the seales to be the priviledge of the church in ordinary dispensation , by this passage of scripture , then they that gladly received the word were baptized : but if apostles baptize by extraordinary dispensation in your sense this testimony is insufficient for that purpose . 2 reason . our second reason . in due order , the seales belong to them to whom the grant is given , viz. baptisme to the seed of the faithfull , and the lords supper to beleevers , able to try and examine themselves : but the grant is vouchsafed to the faithfull and their seed , forgivenesse of sinnes , sanctification , adoption , and what other good things are promised in the covenant of grace are the grant or good things sealed in the sacrament . but those are granted to beleevers according to the covenant ; and they are so linked together , that under one promised all are understood ; and if one be vouchsafed , none is denied . when god promiseth to circumcise the heart , the forgivenesse of sinnes is implyed . and when circumcision is said to be the seale of the righteousnesse of faith , the circumcision of the heart by spirituall regeneration is included . to whomsoever then the spirituall gift , or inward grace of the covenant is given and granted , to them the seales of that gift and grant doth belong in their due order . but the spirituall gift or grace which is the thing signified in the sacrament , is freely granted to true beleevers , who have received the doctrine of salvation , and walk in the wayes of truth and righteousnesse , therefore the priviledges of the seales belong unto them . to this you answer . the scope of the apostle in the place , rom. 4. 11. is not to define a sacrament , nor to shew what is the proper and adequate subject of the sacrament ; but to prove by the example of abraham that a sinner is justified before god , not by works but by faith . thus as abraham the father of the faithfull was justified before god , so must his seed be ( that is , all beleevers whether jews or gentiles , circumcised or uncircumcised ) for therefore abraham received circumcision which belonged to the jews to confirm the righteousnesse which he had before , while he was uncircumcised , that he might be the father of both : but lest any one should think his circumcision was needlesse if he was justified by faith before circumcision ; he addeth that his circumcision was of no use as a seale to confirme to him his faith , and the righteousnesse which is by faith : yet as justification is not the onely thing that circumcision sealed , but the whole covenant also made with abraham and his seed was sealed thereby ; so abraham is to be considered in using circumcision not simply , or onely as a beleever without church relation , but as a confederate beleever , and so in the state and order of a visible church . though the apostle maketh mention of the righteousnesse of faith as sealed thereby , which was not that which served for his purpose . now that circumcision also sealed the church-covenant , may appear from gen. 17. 9. 10 , 11. where you may find that abraham and his seed , though beleevers , were not circumcised till god called them into church-covenant ; and there is the same reason & use of baptisme to us which serveth to seal our justification as circumcision did , yet not that alone , but also the whole covenant with all the priviledges of it , as adoption , sanctification , and fellowship with christ in affections , and the salvation of our souls , and the resurrection of our bodies . and not onely the covenant of grace which is common to all beleevers : but church-covenant 1 cor. 15. 19. covenant also which is peculiar to confederates . according to that of the apostle , by one spirit we are baptized into one body , 1 cor. 12. 13. and by one bodie he meaneth that particular church of corinth whereunto he writeth and saith , now ye are the body of christ , and members in particular , ver . 27. and ergo church-membership is required as well to the orderly partaking of baptisme as it was of circumcision . nor do we find that circumcision was administred to all that were in the covenant of grace ( as all beleevers were ) but onely to such of them as were joyned to the people of the god of abraham . melchizedech was under the covenant of grace , so was lot , so was job and his foure friends ; yet we no where read that they were circumcised , nor do beleeve they were . so that if circumcision was administred to none but those that were joyned together in abrahams familie , and to the church of god in his seed , then may not baptisme in ordinarie course be administred to any beleevers now , unlesse they be joyned to the church of christ , for parum par est ratio . but the first is true , ergo , the second also . reply . the particulars in this answer hath been examined alreadie , and might have well been passed over , because it is tedious to repeat the same things againe and againe . two things are affirmed by you . 1. that the scope of the apostle , rom. 4. 11. was not to define a sacrament , nor to shew what was the proper and adequate subject of a sacrament . but this weakneth no part of the argument , for if the apostle do not fully define a sacrament , nor mention every particular benefit or prerogative sealed in the sacrament ; yet he sheweth sufficiently to whom the sacraments in due order do appertaine , even to the heires of salvation , to them that are justified by faith , and walk in the steps of our father abraham . and thus we argue from the text of the apostle . they that are partakers of the good things sealed in the sacrament , to them belong the seales of the covenant , according to gods institution . but they that are justified by faith are partakers of the good things sealed in the sacrament , to them belong the seales of the covenant according to gods institution . if justification be not the onely thing that circumcision sealed , this is nothing to the point in hand . for the gifts of the holy ghost is not the onely thing that is sealed in baptisme : but you confesse in your answer immediately going before , that they have right to baptisme who have received the holy ghost ; and the reason is the same of justification . besides if justification be not the onely thing that is sealed in the sacrament , it is one principall thing which doth inferre the rest . for the blessings of the covenant of grace in christ are inseparable ; where one is named , others are implyed : and where one is given , no one is absolutely wanting . christ is made of god wisedome , righteousnesse , sanctification , and redemption : whom god doth justifie , them he doth sanctifie , and them he will glorifie . 2. the second thing you affirme is , that not onely the covenant of grace which is common to all beleevers ; but church-covenant also which is peculiar to confederates is necessarie to the participation of the seales . this sense your words must beare , or else they reach not the point in hand : but this is that which should be proved substantially , and not barely affirmed ; and which ( as we conceive ) is contrary to the first institution of the sacrament , and the lawfull practise of john the baptist , our saviour christ , his apostles , and all others who are recorded lawfully to administer the seales . in gen. 17. we find the first institution of circumcision recorded , and that it was the seale of the covenant to abraham and his seed , to them that were borne in his house , or bought with his money : but we find no mention of any church covenant besides the covenant of promise which god made with abraham . there is no mention of any church-order into which abrahams family was now gathered more then formerly . god gave circumcision to abraham and his seed as a seale of the righteousnesse of faith ; but that this family was first gathered into church-order as you speak we cannot beleeve , because the scripture saith it not whether lot , job , melchizedech were circumcised or not , we will not dispute ; but if they received not the seale , we cannot think the reason to be because they were not in church-order as those times required , if any such thing had been required , we cannot think that either they were ignorant of it , or that they walked against their light : but accordiug to the dispensing of those times we judge as they were visible beleevers , so they walked in that church fellowship which god prescribed ; and therefore if circumcision had been the seale of such church-covenant as you conceive , it should have been given to them no lesse then to abrahams family . but of this sufficient is said before . as for baptisme it is the seal of the whole covenant , which the passages quoted prove it to be . whether it be the seale of our fellowship which christ in affliction , and the resurrection of our bodies , we leave it to your consideration : but that it should be a seal of a church-covenant which is peculiar to confederates , that to us is very strange . that it is a solemne admission into the church of christ , and that of necessitie it must be administred in a particular societie ( though in the passage to the corinthians the mysticall bodie of christ be understood ) will easily be granted . but that it is the seale of any other covenant but the covenant of grace we cannot digest . the sacraments are of god , and we must learne of god for what end and use they were ordained . but by the institution of baptisme recorded in scripture we have learned it belongeth to the faithfull , to disciples , to them that are called of god : and as for any other covenant necessarie to the right participation of the seales , there is deep silence of it in the institution , in the lawfull and approved practise of the first dispensers of these sacred mysteries . enough hath been said to this matter alreadie , but we will conclude it with the words of that reverend author whom we have cited many times before upon occasion . afterwards ( saith he ) john the baptist walked in the same steps , and by the same rule administred baptisme in the church whereof he was a member , required of all that came to his baptisme a profession of repentance , and amendment of life for remission of sinnes whereof baptisme was a seale , and preached christ to them . this order our lord jesus christ after his resurrection established to continue in the christian churches , giving a commission to his disciples to preach the gospel to the gentiles , and to gather all such as should beleeve through the world , as a testimonie to them , that the righteousnesse of faith did belong to them also , and not to the church of the jews onely . accordingly the apostles and servants of christ were carefull to observe this rule in their administring baptisme . thus peter when he saw those three thousand souls pricked in their hearts , preached unto them concerning repentance , remission of sin , christ , the promise , baptisme , faith , amendment of life , baptised those that gladly received his word , and testified the same by joyning together in the prosession thereof . the same course philip took with the church that was gathered in samaria , where many were baptized , but none till they professed their beliefe of the gospel , and their receiving of the word of god. and therefore it is said expresly , when they beleeved philip preaching the things concerning the kingdome of god , and the name of jesus christ , they were baptised both men and women . when ananias was commanded to go and baptise paul , he objected against it at first , till the lord assured him that he was one to whom the seale of the covenant belonged , and then he went and did it . when peter and those that came with him saw that the holy ghost fell on cornelius , and those that were assembled at that time in his house , whilest he spake these words , to him give all the prophets witnesse , that through the name of jesus whosoever beleeveth on him shall receive remission of sinnes . peter demanded , can any man forbid water that these should not be baptised , which have received the holy ghost as well as we ? in this catalogue we see profession of faith and repentance required in them that were admitted to partake in the seals ; but there is not a word of church-covenant , either in the institution or administration of the seales before they were admitted to them . that christians are solemnly ingrafted into the body of christ , and into particular societies by the seales , is a truth acknowledged on all sides : but that ever it was deemed necessarie , that a christian should be a set member of a particular congregationall church before he were admitted to the seales , or that by divine institution any such thing is ordained as necessarie thereunto , that upon the grounds before mentioned we denie , and cannot account it lesse then an addition to the institution . for if the sacraments be seales of the covenant of grace , and baptisme by divine institution belong to disciples , faithfull , saints , who have gladly received the word of grace , are justified by faith , sanctified by the spirit , adopted to be the children of god by grace , and heires apparent to the kingdom of heaven ; then to debarre such from the seales , and their seed from baptisme , because they be not in church-covenant ( as you speake ) is an addition to the ordinance of grace , and many wayes injurious to the people of god. v. position . that the power of excommunication is so in the body of the church , that what the major part shall allow must be done , though the pastors and governors and the rest of the assembly be of another minde , and that peradventure upon more substantiall reasons . answer . if the question had been , whether the power of excommunication lies in the body of the congregation , consisting of officers and members ; our answer should be affirmative , and according hereunto is also our practise , and wee hope your judgement and ours are not different herein : but seeing the question is , whether it is so in the body of the congregation , that what the major part doth allow that must be done , though the pastors and governors , and the rest of the assembly , doe dissent upon more substantiall reasons . our answer is negative , viz. that the power of excommunication is not sealed in the congregation , neither ought it to be so in any of the churches of the lord jesus , who ought not to carry matters by number of votes against god , as this position implyeth , but by strength of rule and reason according to god. the power of the apostles was not to doe things against the truth but for the truth , 2 cor. 13. 8 and not for destruction , but for edification , 2 cor. 10. 8. and the same may be said concerning the power which god hath given to the church , and if any church among us have swerved from the rule ( which is more then we know ) we doe not allow them in such a practise , but should be ready as the lord should helpe to convince them of their sin therein . reply . this question is much mistaken , for the demand is not whether in the congregation matters should be carryed by number of votes against god , as you interpret the position , but whether the power of excommunication so lye in the body of the congregation as that sentence must proceed in externoforo , according to the vote and determination of the major part , and so whether power of admission of members doe so reside in the communitie , as that they must be refused whom the major part refuse , though the pastors and governors and part of the congregation be of another judgement , and he admitted whom the major part doth approve . and though the church hath received no power against god , but for god , yet in the execution of the power no doubt the members of that church may be of different judgements and affections , wherein the one side or other doth erre , and is deceived . now the question hereupon moved is , whether the power of the keyes be so given and committed to the society of the faithfull , as that in externall court that act or sentence must stand and be in force which the greater part shall determine amongst them which hold the power of the keyes to be given to the church . some a distinguish betwixt the power it self which they give to the church , and the execution and exercise of it , which they confine to the presbytery : b others give the power of the keyes with the exercise thereof to the whole body of the church , or if in the dispensation they attribute any thing to the officers , it is but as servants of the church , from whom they derive their authoritie . by church also some understand the communitie of the faithfull , together with their officers and guides . and here lyeth the stone at which they of the seperation stumble , and which we conceive to be your judgement and practise , wherein we required your plaine answer , with your reasons , but have received no satisfaction . you referre us to mr. parkers reasons to prove the power of the keyes to belong to the whole church , who are of farre different judgement from mr. parker in the point it selfe . and if your judgement and practise be according to that of the seperation ( which we feare ) you dissent from him , and we cannot but dissent from you upon these considerations . 1. no power agreeth to the multitude or communitie of the faithfull , but that which is given them of the lord by his positive law ; for the whole spirituall power for the gathering and government of his church is given to christ as mediator . and if the power of the keyes be derived from , and communicated by christ unto his church , of necessitie it must draw its originall from divine positive law , and can agree to none but as it is communicated . but the communicated power of the keyes with the execution thereof , christ hath not given immediately to the whole multitude , but to some persons and officers designed and appointed thereunto . peruse the severall passages of scripture , wherein power and authoritie of preaching the gospel , administring the sacraments , binding and loosing is given to the church : and it is apparent that distinct severall persons are spoken of , and not the whole communitie ; goe teach all nations , and baptize them , &c. whose sinnes yee remit , they are remitted , &c. feed my lambes , feed my sheepe , &c. were these things spoken to the whole communitie , or to speciall persons ? 2. if christ gave this power to the communitie , was it from the beginning of the church , or tooke it effect after the churches were planted and established by the apostles . not the first , for then the apostles themselves should derive their power from the communitie and societie of the faithfull , which they did not , but from christ immediately , both in respect of gifts and graces , their calling it selfe , and the designation of their persons . it is said the power of the keyes given to the apostles was given to the church , in tuitu ejusdem tanquam finis & totius . and it is true the apostles were given to the church , and the power they received was for the good of the whole ; but this is not enough . that power may be said to be received immediately by the church , as the first receptacle of it , and from it derived to others . but this power must be in the communitie as the first subject , from whom it commeth to the officers . as the power of seeing is not onely given in tuitu hominis , as the end of it , and the totum to whom it agreeth , but is in homine as the first subject from which it commeth to the eyes . the apostles and other governors were given of christ for the church as for their end , and all their authoritie was given unto them for the church as for the whole : but the authoritie it selfe was immediately derived from christ , and is not in the church as the immediate subject , nor derived from the church , but from christ the king of the church . the authoritie of governors is given of christ for a gift to the church , but not for a gift absolute , that it may reside in the power of the whole church , to whom it is given , but for a conditionall gift communicated to the governors themselves for the good of the whole . it is one thing then to aske for what end or use the keyes are given , another to whom . to every one is given the declaration of the spirit for profit , i. e. for the good of the church . but was this gift given to the communitie of the faithfull first and immediately ? no ; by gift and possession it was given to some , but for use and profit it was publick . after the churches were established it tooke not effect ; for then it must be shewed where christ committed the power of god , first to the apostles , and after to the communitie of the faithfull . but that is no where to be found in holy scripture . the ministers and guides of the church were immediately of jesus christ , from whom immediately they derive their power and authoritie , by whom they are set over their charge , in whose name they must execute their office , whose stewards , legates and ambassadors they are , and unto whom they must give an account . yea , pastorship is the gift of christ no lesse then apostleship , and that the more because it is perpetuall in the church ; every pastor is not immediately called , but the office and order of pastors , the calling , authoritie and jurisdiction is immediately from christ , and not from the church : the steward is appointed of the master of the family alone , and hath all his authoritie and jurisdiction from him : every ambassador in the cause of his ambassage doth immediately depend upon him from whom he is sent . but if the function , order and authoritie of pastors and teachers , be immediately from christ , then it is not received from the church as the immediate receptacle . thus protestant divines dispute against papists . if bishops receive their power and authority of exercising immediately from christ , by mandate , mission , and commission from him , then they derive it not from the pope . and if presbyters receive their order jurisdiction and power of execution from christ by his mandate and commission , then they receive it not from the bishop . and by the same reason , if the power of the keyes be the immediate gift of christ to his ministers , then they derive not their power and authoritie from the people . it is usually objected that the church cannot convey what she never had , but the people may elect their pastor . whereunto the answer is direct and plaine . nothing can give that which it had not formally or virtually , unlesse it give it as an instrument ministring to one who hath it , but so it may give what it never had , nor is capable of . a steward may give all the offices in his masters house , as ministerially executing his masters pleasure . electors have not evermore authoritie over him whom they elect : but power and authoritie onely to apply that power to him whom they choose . the power and authoritie whereunto a minister is elected , is not in the people that elect him , but from christ the king and head of his church , who out of power doth conferre that office upon him . if we consider what men give , or give not universally , it must be deemed that any men can make ministers , because they give not the office , gifts , or authoritie , which are from christ alone . 3. if ecclesiasticall and spirituall power be in the multitude and community of the faithfull , the church doth not onely call , but make officers out of power and vertue received into her selfe , and then should the church have a true lordlike power in regard of her ministers . for as he that will derive authority to the church maketh himselfe lord of the church : so if the church derive authoritie to the ministers of christ , she maketh herself lady and mistris over them in the exercise of that authoritie over them . for all men know it is the property of the lord and master to impart authoritie . did the church give power and authoritie to the pastors and teachers , she might make the sacraments and preaching which one doth in order no sacraments , no preaching . for it is the order instituted of god that gives being and efficacie to these ordinances . and if the power of ruling , feeding , and dispensing the holy things of god , do reside in the faithfull , the word and sacraments in respect of dispensation and efficacie shall depend upon the order and institution of the societie . if the power of the keyes be derived from the community of the faithfull , then are officers immediately and formally servants to the church , and must do every thing in the name of the church , rule , feed , bind , loose , remit and retaine sinnes , preach and administer the sacraments , then they must performe their office according to the direction of the church more or lesse , seldome or frequent , remisse or diligent . for from whom are they to receive direction how to carry themselves in their office but from him or them from whom they receive their office , whose works they do , and from whom they expect their reward ? if their power and office be of god immediately , they must do the duties of their place according to his designement , and to be accountable unto god : but if their power and function be from the church , the church must give account unto god , and the officers unto the church whom she doth take to be her helpers . if it be said that god will have the church to chuse officers to execute the power committed unto her . the answer is , either god will have her elect officers of his designement to do his work according to that power which he shall give them , and by his direction , and then they are god servants , and not the churches , and receive their charge and function immediately from god , and not from the people : or he leaveth it to the arbitriment of the church , to chuse according to their pleasure such as must receive charge and authoritie from her . and then they must execute their office in her name so as shall seeme good unto the church , and neither longer nor otherwise . for if the ministers of the church be subject to god and christ by the intervention of the people onely , they have it from them , and not from god : but they preach or administer the sacraments , rule , or feed , and if they depend immediately upon the faithfull , viz. two or three gathered together in covenant , they must draw what in order they are to preach unto them in the name of the lord ; for from him must the ambassadour learne his arrand from whom he receiveth his commission . we forbeare to presse the a confessions and reasons of such as maintaine this opinion , that the officers of christ be both of and for the people , and that in relation as the officers are called servants , the church may be called lord. 4. moreover if the power of the keyes be given first and immediately to the community of the faithfull , what reason can be alledged why in defect of officers the church might not rule , governe , feed , bind , loose , preach and administer the sacraments , or if any faile in any office , why she might not supply that want by her power . for the power of the keyes doth containe , both authority and exercise , power being given to this end , that it might be exercised as it is vouchsafed . but the church when she is destitute of officers , cannot exercise those acts of rule , nor by her power supply the want of any officer . onely she hath a ministery of calling one whom christ hath described , that from christ he may have power of office given him in the vacant place . for these reasons ( not to insist on any more ) we judge the multitude or community of the faithfull not to be the immediate receptacle of ecclesiasticall authoritie , and so the power of excommunication not to belong to them . if consent of the churches of god be asked in this point ( to omit others ) the churches of scotland speake fully and expresly for us , in the second book of disci . cap. 1. the church as it is taken for them that exercise spirituall functions in the congregation of them that professe the truth , hath a certain power granted by god according to which , it useth a proper jurisdiction and government exercised to the comfort of the whole flocke . power is an ecclesiasticall authority granted by god the father through the mediator jesus christ unto his kirke , gathered , and having its ground in the word of god , and to be put in execution by them unto whom the spirituall government of the church by lawfull calling is committed . the policie of the kirke flowing from this power is an order or spirituall forme of government which is exercised by the members appointed thereto by the word of god , and therefore is given immediately to the office-bearers by whom it is exercised to the weale of the whole body . vt universam scripturam evolvat d. erastus , nunquam tamen inventurum verba ligandi , & solvendi aliis quam publico ministerio fungentibus , & quidem met aphoricè , divinae videlicet & spiritualis potestatis respectu , tribui . sunt enim judicialia haec verba . &c. beza de presb. p 60. see helvet . conf . ca. 18. sect. nunc ergo , &c. belgic . confess . art . 3. argentinens . conf . art . 13. bohem. confes . art 14. vi. position . that none are to be admitted as members but they must promise not to depart or remove unlesse the congregation will give leave . answer . our answer hereto is briefly this . we judge it expedient and most according to rule , that such brethren as are in covenant with the church , and ours as fellow-members , and have committed their soules to our charge as ministers , should not forsake our fellowship , nor obruptly breake away from us when and whither they please ; but first approve themselves therein to their brethrens consciences , and take their counsell in so weightie a matter . for which we propound to confider these two reasons following . the former is drawne from the nature of the church-covenant , which consists in these foure particulars . 1. every member at his admission doth openly professe , and solemnly promise , that by christs helpe assisting , he will not onely in generall give up himselfe ( as to the lord to be guided by him , so ) to the church according to god to be directed by it , which is no more then the members of the church of macedonia , did in a parallel case , 2 cor. 8. 5. but also in particular , that he will performe all duties of brotherly love and faithfulnesse to all the members of the body , as of diligent watchfulnesse over all his brethren , thereby to prevent sin , so of faithfull admonition after their falls to regaine them to the lord , from their sinne , the former being injoyned , hebr. 3. 13. and the want thereof deeply condemned in cain , that would not acknowledge that duty of being his brothers keeper , gen. 4. 9. the latter given in charge to the church-members of israel by the hand of moses , levit. 19. 17. and so by christ himself , matth. 18. 15. and by paul also to the galat. c. 6. 1 , 2. secondly , the ingagements are not made onely by the members admitted into the church , but by the church back again to the member . so that thereby the whole church in generall , and every member thereof in particular , stand as well in conscience bound to performe all duties of love and watchfulnesse to him , as he doth to them ; and this we do according to the golden rule of love and equitie injoyned by our saviour , matth. 7. 12. fearing that contrary practise of scribes and pharisees so much condemned by christ , of laying greater burthens upon others , then we our selves are willing to undergo . matth. 23. 4. 3. these promises thus lawfully and mutually made , that member , as also the whole church , are bound not onely every one for himselfe , actively to performe them , but passively also to suffer his brethren to do those offices upon and towards himself : if he neglect the former , he shall falsifie his covenant so solemnly before god , angels , and men made , and so not onely breake promise to his brother , contrary to psal . 15. 4. but also in some sort commit the sinne of ananias and saphira in lying against the holy ghost , condemned and punished severely by gods own hand , act. 5. 3. 5. 10. if he faile in the latter , he shall not onely be guiltie of the same sinne of breach of covenant with god and man as in the former ; but shall also be guilty of this folly of despising counsell so much condemned , prov. 12. 15. and 1. 7. and shall also proclaime this his folly and pride by shewing to all the church that he is wise in his own eyes , and leanes to his own wisedome both reproved , prov. 3. 7. and 23. 4. seeing need of no further light to be held forth by his brethren , then what he apprehends himselfe , which is one of the greatest properties of folly . 4. from all these things premised , it appears that we can do no lesse ( and yet we do no more ) then require a member before he depart according to our covenant thus lawfully , deliberately , and mutually made , to expresse to his brethren his desire of departing , and the place and societie to which he tends , whether to a godly church where he may be edified ; or to some corrupt assembly where he may be destroyed . and 2. his grounds and reasons which move him so to do , which if they hold good being scanned by the word , he may be not onely confirmed in his way by the consent and advise of many , but counselled also how to manage his departure for his best comfort . and so after all , solemnly with the whole churches prayers , and blessings in the name of christ dismissed : but if his grounds either be none at all , or weake and sinfull , and that his desire of departing savours of self-will , inordinate love of gaine , rash precipitancie , or a spirit of schisme , more strongly then of sound reason , then what can we do lesse without breach of covenant , then in love and tendernesse shew him his weaknesse , disswade him from his purpose , and refuse to consent . yet if after all this we see his spirit stedfastly and stiffely bent for a departure , then though we dare not act against our light by consenting or counselling , yet if his finne be not apparent , and danger eminent , we use rather ( through indulgence in cases of like nature ) to suspend our vote against him , as not willing against his will to detain him , abhorring to make our churches places of restraint and imprisonment . but if any should object that this argument holds firme where this church-covenant is allowed to be lawfull , but with some it is questioned , and with them it avails not . ans . some indeed have questioned the necessitie of our church-covenant , but none ( we hope ) of these our reverend brethren that we write unto do question the lawfulnesse of such a covenant being nothing else for the matter of it , but a promise of doing such christian duties as the gospel of christ requires of all saints in church-estate ; for we doe not herein promise to performe any new dutie to our brethren which was not before commanded us of the lord , but onely revive and renew our purposes afresh of performing such duties unto that particular body into which we are then incorporated as were before injoyned in the word , as to love each other , and to watch over each other out of love for their good , to be ready to give counsell to , and to take counsell from each other , to prevent sinne in them , or to gaine them from sinne . all which are plentifully and frequently held forth in the scriptures ; for the defect of which care and watchfulnesse , all the body shall be wrapt in the same guilt & punishment with the member that commits the sinne , as the whole church of israel was in achans sinne and punishment . secondly , it s a thing very reasonable , and a knowne fundamentall rule in all societies , that he that is incorporate thereto , and so participates of the priviledges thereof , should ingage himselfe to conforme to all such lawfull rites and orders as are expedient for the well being of that societie , the contrary whereto will be a thing injurious in him to offer , and confusion to themselves to accept . the second ground is drawne from the necessitie that may fall upon the body if every particular member should depart at his owne pleasure . for as every societie , so much more a church of saints , both from principles of nature and christianitie also , not onely lawfully may , but in dutie are bound to endeavour the preservation of it selfe , and ergo timely to foresee and wisely to prevent all such things as would bring destruction to it selfe . now if any member might , when , whither , and wherefore he please without consent of the church depart away from it , this may by unavoydable consequence dissipate the whole ; for if one man may so depart , why may not another also , though never so usefull in that body , and whose absence might much shake the well-being of it : and if one why not two , six , ten , twent● as well ? for where will yee stop seeing any may plead the same libertie , and if members may so doe why not the pastor and teacher also ? seeing they are tyed to him by the same relation that he is to them , and so the principalls falling , the whole building must downe : and if this may be so in one church , why not in all , and so christ should have no setled church on earth . reply . it is one thing abruptly to breake away when and whither they please , and forsake fellow-ship , another thing not to depart or remove habitation , unlesse the congregation will give leave . also it is one thing mutually to compound and agree not to depart from each other without consent and approbation , another to require a promise of all that be admitted into societie , that they shall not depart without the churches allowance . if such a promise be required of all members to be admitted , we cannot discerne upon what grounds your practise is warranted . first , you exclude all such as be not set members from the sacrament of the supper , and their children from baptisme , and yet hinder them from entrance into church societie , because they cannot promise continuance in the place where they are resident for the present . here we desire to be satisfied from the word of god by what you require it . did the apostles ever stipulate with such as desired to be baptized , that they must abide in particular societie , and not remove thence without approbation from the church ? or did they deny the seales unto them , because they could not make any such promise ? was it ever heard of in the church of god from the beginning thereof unto this day , that any such thing was propounded unto , or required of , members to be admitted into church-fellowship ? that church covenant which is necessary was not in use in the apostles times , but the covenant they entred into bound no man to this condition for ought we reade . they did not prescribe it , no church ever yet covenanted it as necessary to the preservation of the body . secondly , it pertaines not to the whole congregation to take notice of , be acquainted with , or judge of the cause of every particular members removall . may not a servant remove from his master to another congregation ? or the father bestow his sonne or daughter in marriage to one of another congregation , but the whole church must be called to councell in this matter ? if the assembly once grow to be populous , of necessitie they must be negligent in , or weary of such an heavy taske ; and for the present , for every one to challenge so much authoritie over other is usurpation . let it be shewed that ever by divine right this power was committed to the church , and then we will confesse it to be expedient and necessary . but till then we thinke the church is over ridged in exacting such a condition of the members , and the members themselves goe beyond their measure as busi-bodies in other mens matters , and things whereof they are not well able to judge many times , if they arrogate such power unto themselves wee allow not rashnesse , or precipitancy , pride or self-conceitednesse , we know it is meete that weightie matters should be mannaged by councell , but it is not necessary to bring every particular thing to the whole church . in the multitude of councellors there is peace , but over many councellors oft causeth distraction , and different apprehensions breed delayes . the nature of your church-covenant , as you describe it , inferreth not a necessitle of bringing every such businesse unto the church ; for you binde your selves mutually to watch over one another , and in love to admonish one another in the lord , to prevent sinne and to encourage in well-doing , as it concerneth every man within the limits of his place and calling . but this essentially tyeth not any man to a perpetuall residence in one place , for then even occasionall absence should be a breach of covenant , unlesse it be by consent and approbation of the church . you say in your covenant you promise to performe no new dutie to your brethren which was not before commanded of the lord , but onely revive and renew your purposes afresh of performing such duties to that particular body into which you are then to be incorporated , as were before injoyned in the word . but in the word of truth , it is not commanded either expresly or by consequent , that no member of a congregation should remove , or occasionally be absent from the place of his habitation , before he have acquainted the church whither he goeth , and upon what occasions , and whether the place be dangerous , where he is likely to be infected ; or safe , where he may be edified . these things are matters of weight and to be undertaken with advice , but the knowledge thereof belongeth not to every particular member of the societie . and the church shall burden her selfe above measure if she take upon her to intermeddle in all such occasions . neither is it safe to commit the determination of such matters ever to the vote of the multitude , or weight of reasons , as they shall apprehend the matter . and if such businesse must be determined on the lords day , and to goe before the administration of the word , sacraments , and almes , least the holy things be polluted by notorious obstinate offenders , wee feare the time appointed for the exercise of religion shall be prophaned with unseasonable disputes . instances might be alledged , if it were a matter to be insisted upon . as for the covenant it selfe which you mutually enter into , if therein you exact nothing but what god requires both for tryall and stipulation , far be it that we should disallow it , but if yee constraine men to meddle with things that belong not to them , and winde them up higher then god would , and straine every thing to the pitch that you seeme here to doe in this branch a godly and sober minde may well pause before he make such promise . all members of the church are not equally necessary to the preservatiō of the whole body ; & if to the removall of some , it were expedient to have the cōsent , not only of the whole society , but of neighbouring societies , ministers especially , it is very much to draw this to the removall or abode of every particular member . and if any man shall not intermeddle with every businesse of this kinde , as questioning whether it doth belong to him or no , or not aske the advice of the whole societie , as knowing the most to be unfit to counsell in such a case , doth he break his covenant therein , and so commit a sinne in a sort like the sinne of ananias and saphira ? judge your selves if in other cases you would not censure this to be an high incroachment upon christian libertie , and a strict binding of mens consciences by humane constitutions . may you not expect to heare from your own grounds that herein you have devised an expedient , or necessary rite or custome to preserve the unitie , and prevent the dissolution of the body , which never came into the minde of the lord jesus , the saviour of the church , and that in so doing ( if your exposition will hold good ) you breake the second commandement . rites and customes expedient to prevent confusion for the time , let them be observed as customes expedient , and what god requires in the examination or admission of members , let that take place according to the presidents given in the scriptures , and the constant practise of the universall church in the purest times . but to presse customes onely expedient for the time , as standing rules necessary at all times , and for all persons , to put that authoritie into the hands of men which god never put upon them , to oblige men to intermeddle further in the affaires of men , then the word doth warrant , to binde the conscience , and that under so heavy a penalty as the sinne of ananias and saphira , where god hath not bound it , and to debarre known and approved christians from the seales of the covenant , because they cannot promise as setled members to abide and stay in the societie , unlesse they shall obtaine leave of the congregation to depart , and to charge them in the meane season to be men , who against light refuse subjection to the gospel ; this is that which we cannot approve , which yet wee suspect will follow from your judgement , and desire to be resolved of in your practise . and here we intreat leave to put you in minde of that which you have considered already , schil . that the church and every member thereof hath entred into covenant , either expresly or implicitely to take god for their god , and to keepe the words of the covenant and doe them , to seeke the lord with all their hearts , and to walke before him in truth and uprightnesse : but we never finde that they were called to give account of the worke of grace wrought in their soules , or that the whole congregation were appointed to be judge thereof . you stand all of you this day ( saith moses ) before the lord your god , &c. that thou shouldst enter into covenant with the lord thy god. all the people that were borne in the wildernesse joshua circumcised , but it is incredible to thinke that among that great multitude , there was not one who did not give good testimony of the worke of grace in his soule : we reade often times that israel after some grievous fall and revolt , renewed their covenant , to walke with god , to serve him onely , and to obey his voyce , as in the dayes of joshua , the judges , david , samuel : also joash , josiah , and nehemiah , &c. but no particular enquiry was made , what worke of grace god had wrought in the hearts of every singular person . but the confession and profession of obedience was taken . when john baptist began to preach the gospel , and gather a new people for christ , he admitted none to baptisme but upon confession of their sinnes ; but we reade of no question that he put forth unto them to discover the worke of grace in their soules , or repelled any that voluntarily submitted themselves upon that pretence . it appeareth many wayes that when the apostles planted churches , they made a covenant between god and the people whom they received . but they received men upon the profession of faith , and promise of amendment of life , without strict in quirie what sound work of grace was wrought in the soul . in after ages , strangers from the covenant were first instructed in the faith , and then baptised upon the profession of faith , and promise to walk according to the covenant of grace . now the profession at first required of all that were received to baptisme was that they beleeved in the father , sonne , and holy ghost . this was the confession of the eunuch when he was baptised , i beleeve that jesus christ is the sonne of god. the creed is honoured of the ancients with glorious titles , as the rule of faith , the summe of faith , the body of faith , the perswasions of faith : but by the creed they understand that rule of faith , and law of faith , and institution of christ which was then given when he was about to ascend into heaven , and commanded his disciples , saying , go teach all nations , &c. it is true , that in after times as occasion required some other articles were added as explanations of the former , to meet with the heresies of the times which began to trouble the church . but for substance of matter in things to be beleeved , the church never required other acknowledgement of them that were to be received into the congregation of christs flock , and admitted into her communion . and for things to be done , or the practicall part , she requireth of them that were to be received to baptisme an abrenuntiation of the devill , the world , and the flesh , with all their sinfull works and lusts . the first principles then of the doctrine of christ being received , and the foresaid profession being made , the apostles , and the church following the example of the apostles , never denied baptisme unto such as sought or desired it . if this be the covenant that members admitted into church-fellowship do enter into , and this be all you require of them whom you receive , you have the practise of the apostles , and the whole church in after ages for your president . but if you proceed further then thus , and put men to declare what worke of grace god hath wrought in their soul , in this or that way , which perhaps is not determined by the word of grace , at least not agreed upon among your selves , we beseech you consider by what authority you do it , and upon what grounds you stand . but we will enter no further upon this matter , because it comes not within the compasse of these positions , and to attribute so much to private letters , as to make them the ground of another dispute we may not . vii . position . that a minister is so a minister of a particular congregation , that if they dislike him unjustly , or leave him , he ceaseth to be a minister . answer . our answer to this consists in two branches . 1. in case a minister be set aside by the church meerly through his own default . 2. by the churches default without any desert of his . in the former case it is evident he ceaseth to be a minister to them any longer , as appears in foure conclusions . 1. it is cleare from the word , that a pastor or teacher in these dayes hath no apostolicall power over all churches , but onely limited to that one church where god hath set him . paul gives not the elders at ephesus a generall commission to go teach all churches , but to go feed that one flock over which the holy ghost hath made them over-seers . act. 20. 28. so peter gives direction to elders to feed that flock of god onely which was among them , and take the over-sight thereof . 1 pet. 5. 2. 2. it is as cleare that all this power of feeding which the minister hath in that church is nextly derived to him from christ by the church , who hath solemnly called him to the work , and promised to obey him therein : for if he have it elsewhere , it must be either from christ immediately , or from some other men deputed by christ to conferre it on him , or he must take it up of himselfe . not the first , for that was proper to the apostles or apostolicall men , therefore paul proving his apostleship , saith he was called not of men , nor by men , but by jesus christ himself . gal. 1. 1. not the second , for we never read in gods word that any ordinary officers , or other besides the church , that had any commission given them from christ to call ministers unto churches . not the third , for no man taketh this honour , viz. of a priest under the law , or of a minister under the gospel , but he that is called of god , hebr. 5. 4. therefore it must needs be from christ by the church . 3. as the church in the name of christ gave this power to a minister to be what he is , and do what he doth amongst them : when such a minister shall make and manifest himself apparently , unworthy , and unfit to discharge the place , which they thus called him unto , so that they may discerne that christ the head of the church hath refused him , from being a minister unto him , they may then upon as good grounds depose him from it , as they called him to it . 4. when a church hath thus in christs name put forth this power of shutting , as before it did of opening to a minister , then he must cease to be a minister unto them any more , for we know no such indelible character imprinted upon a minister , that the ministery ceasing , the minister ceaseth also . 2. in case the church shall without cause , or sufficient weightie cause , rashly or wilfully set him aside whom christ hath set over them , and whom they so solemnly called , and promised before the lord to submit unto , and so abuse their power given them by christ ; it is doubtlesse a very great wrong unto the minister , and sinne against christ himselfe before whom it was done ; and not onely christ himself will take it ill at their hands , for such contempt done to him in his ministers according to christs speech , luke 10. 16. he that rejecteth you , rejecteth me . and gods speech , 1 sam. 8. 7. they have not cast off thee but me . but even other churches also may admonish them . and if they prove obstinate therein , withdraw the right hand of fellowship from them ; and concerning the minister himself thus deposed , seeing it is done not by christ , but by the church without christ , yea against the mind of christ , we conceive though he be by them deprived of the execution of his ministery among them , yet untill he accepts of a call to another people , he doth yet still remain a minister of christ , in whose account ( notwithstanding such deposition ) he hath true right of administration among that people . reply . the question is of ministers unjustly forsaken , or driven from the church or congregation : and your answer is for the most part of ministers set aside or deprived through their own default . we never purposed to speak one word for any unworthy minister whom christ hath put out of office , and therefore your labour to prove that such justly rejected by the church are no longer ministers might well have been saved . but sitting them aside , we will in few words examine your conclusions upon which you bind the certainty of that sentence you passe against them . first , it is certain and clear from the word , that a pastor or teacher neither in these dayes hath , nor in any other age of the church , ought to have apostolicall power over all churches . the apostles had onely power to serve the church with the personall service of their apostleship . but pastorall power of ordinarie ministers or teachers they never had : and if the apostles had not the power of ordinarie ministers , much lesse can pastors receive the power of apostles , for christ gave both the one and the other order . but as the apostles were not pastors of that church to which they preached , and among whom they continued for some space ; no more do pastors become apostles if they preach the word , or dispence the sacraments to another flock or people beside their own , whereof they have the speciall oversight . but of this matter we have spoken before , and of the texts of scripture here alledged , therefore we will not repeat what hath been said alreadie : onely it seemeth somewhat strange , that you should cite those texts of scripture , as if the apostle had said , feed one flock , or feed that flock of god onely . for we find the word ( one ) or ( onely ) neither in the text expresly , nor in the sense for which it is here alledged , viz. as if he might not perform any ministeriall act in another congregation upon any occasion whatsoever . secondly , the power of feeding which the minister hath is neither confined to one societie onely , nor nextly derived to him from christ by the church . the office and authoritie of a pastor is immediately from christ . the deputation of the person which christ hath designed is from the church ministerially , but neither virtually nor formally . the consent of the people is requisite in the election of pastors and teachers we grant , the direction of the elders going before or along with them ; but the authoritie , office , and gift of a pastor is not from the people or elders , but from christ alone . when an apostle was to be chosen in the place of judas , act. 1. 22 , 23. no one had the handling of that businesse , but peter declared unto the brethren present , what an one ought to be taken , and they present two , whereof one was elected by lot . in this example somethings are extraordinarie , for one onely was to be chosen , and that immediately by god himselfe : and somethings ordinarie for our imitation . for if peter would do nothing without consent of the disciples , thenmay not ordinarie elections be passed without consent and approbation of the church , but it is not a popular election , not governed by the fore-direction of elders , which is concluded from this passage of scripture : but a church election by the free consent , and judgement of the faithfull with the fore-leading of the presbyterie . when deacons were to be chosen , act. 6. 1. 6. in the church of jerusalem , it was done by the consent of the church . the mutinie of the hellenists against the hebrews occasioned that election , but was no cause why it was made by free consent . the apostles shew what persons must be chosen , and who ever thought the church was left at libertie to chuse as she please without direction . but in this election the people did first chuse , the apostles onely directing whom the people ought to make choice of : when most commonly the apostles instructed the people , and went before them in the election , and they consented . act. 14. 23. the apostles by consent chose elders , and so in every matter of great importance belonging directly to the whole bodie of the church , whether severally in one congregation , or joyntly in many , the consent of the faithfull by observation of the apostles was required . act. 11. 22. and 15. 22. and 16. 4. 1 cor. 8. 19. but in the primitive times after the apostles , one church might elect and chuse a pastor for another . as ignatius exhorts the phyladelphians , that they would elect a pastor for the church of antioch . and so when the east church was infected with arrianisme , basil . epist . 69. 70. 74. thought it a fit meanes to remove the heresie , if the bishops of italie being sent thither did condemne the heresie , and he imploreth the aid of the bishops of italy , france , and all the east . cyprian saith , all bishops sunt mutuae concordiae glutine copulati : that if any hold heresie the rest should help . it would be too long to reckon up examples which in this case might be produced . if here it be questioned whether your election of the people be essentiall to the calling of a minister : we answer . 1. a thing is essentiall two wayes . first , as absolutely necessarie , so that the thing can have no existence without it . secondly , as necessarie to the integritie of the thing , so that it is maimed without it . againe , either the people be few in number , and simple apt to be led aside , unable to judge of the sufficiencie of their minister , or they be more in number , increased in wisdome , sound in faith , and able to discern betwixt things that differ . in the first sense the election of the people is not necessary or essentiall ; but in the second we cannot say he is no minister that is not chosen by the people , but his calling in that respect is maimed . if the people be few and simple , apt to be deceived , they stand in more need of guidance and direction , both from their own elders , and other churches . if the people be many in number , full of wisdome and understanding , their libertie to choose is the greater ; and it is the greater wrong to be deprived of it . the practise of the apostles and the primitive churches for many ages will confirme this ; for sometimes men were propounded to the church to be chosen : sometimes the choice was wholly left to them : and was not that for our direction , that more libertie is given where the danger is lesse , and more restraint and caution used where the danger is more apparent , that if they be left to themselves , either an ill or unfit choice will be made ? in reason this is evident , for the childs consent is required in marriage , but the more able he is to choose for himselfe , the more libertie may parents grant , the lesse able , the more watchfull must they be ; and so in this businesse . brotherly societie requires that we mutually exhort , admonish , reprove and comfort each other as occasion requires , and as need requires . it is a dutie of neighbour-churches to lend their helpe to their brethren in the choice and election of their minister . when the scripture willeth that one should admonish another , it is not onely a command to every singular man towards his fellow , but also to any whole company too : another societie bellarmine asketh , quo jure unus populus episcopum alterius populi elegere potest ? junius answereth ; certe charitatis jure & communione sanctorum . and paul when he teacheth that all the faithfull are members of one mysticall body of christ , who ought to have a mutuall care one of another , laid the foundation of this policie . it is a blemish in the calling of a minister , if either the people be not fit to choose , or being fit they be shut forth from the choice , but this maime doth not make a nullitie in his calling ; for in every true church where the word is preached and received , and the sacraments for substance rightly administred , there is a true and lawfull ministery , and a true and lawfull calling of that ministery , though in some things defective . in the church of god all sound and saving truth is to be found , for it is the pillar and ground of truth , and where the true profession of all saving truth , with the right use of the sacraments for substance is to be found , there is the church , which ordinarily cannot be had , maintained and continued without a lawfull ministery , nor that without a calling . the saving truth of god & a lawfull ministery , are both essentiall to a true church . something of this remaines in every compleat societie that hath any thing of the church ; and for essence and substance they are true in every true , lawfull , compleat societie . the profession of the truth may be true and sound in all necessary and fundamentall points , though mixed with diverse errors , and the ministery for truth and substance lawfull , though many wayes deficient . in the true church there is a true ministery , but the true church hath continued there by the blessing of god , where the election of ministers hath been given away by the people , or taken from them . in the primitive church , when the people had a voyce in the choice of their pastor , oftentimes there were factions in the church , the people stood against their guides and challenged the whole power of election to themselves . sometimes they were divided among themselves . sometimes they gave away their power , at least in part , and sometimes ministers were set over them without their councell and advice , whose ministery notwithstanding was not reputed voyde and of none effect . if it be objected that many things were amisse in those primitive elections , what will follow thence , but that the ministery may be lawfull and good , where there be many wants in the manner of calling ? if this be not granted , what shall be done when the people and their elders be divided in the choice of a fit officer . if the people prevaile against their elders , he whom they choose is no minister to them , because not chosen by their suffrages : if the elders against the people , he whom they approve is no minister unto theirs , because not chosen by their suffrage ; and so if there be dissention they must seperate from , or excommunicate one another , because he is no minister to the one whom the others approve . the orthodox pastors did professe , so that the donatists would returne to the true and apostolicall doctrine , they would not disallow their bishops , that they might understand that catholiques did not detest christian consecration ( as augustine speakes ) by humane error . the high priesthood was bought and sold for money , and sometimes made annuall , and every yeare new high priests created , sicut isti praefecti quos singulis annis promutant reges , as sol : jarchi saith . that as every man would lay out more or lesse money , he should get or lose the priesthood , which may be seene in the examples of jason or menelaus . neverthelesse , so long as the jewes continued the true church of god , the priesthood was true also . the reformed churches who have seperated from the abhominations of rome , professe the first reformers among them received some ordinary calling in the romane synagogue . they that thinke the basest of rome , will acknowledge baptisme unduely administred by priests or jesuites , to be for substance the holy sacrament of christ . and if the baptisme of god may be derived from the ministery , it is no absurditie to thinke that the first seekers of reformation derived authoritie from christ to preach the word and administer the sacraments by them , as stewards used of god to set them in that office : for the seekers of reformation derived their authoritie from god , and that which is instituted by christ , is not made voyde by the corruptions of men . the third and fourth consideration we will passe over , because from what hath been spoken , it is easie to understand in what sense they may be admitted , and in what denyed , and we have no desire to trouble you with the examination of that which falleth not into question . as for the second branch of your answer , that in case the church shall without cause , or without sufficient weightie cause , rashly or wilfully set him aside whom christ hath set over them , yet he still remaines a minister of christ ( untill he accepts of a call from another people ) in whose account , notwithstanding such depositions , he hath true right of administring among that people : we know not well your meaning ; if this be your minde that a minister lawfully called and set over one congregation , is to be esteemed a minister in the usuall church , as the particular church hath unitie with , and is part of the universall or catholique : and as a partie baptized is not baptized into that particular congregation onely , but into all churches ; and that the ministery is one , cujus à singulis in solidum pars tenetur , as cyprian speakes ; and therefore though the minister be unjustly cast off by one congregation , yet he is not to be esteemed as no minister , we freely consent . but if your meaning be that he is onely by right a minister of that particular congregation , because unjustly deposed , as formerly in the execution of his office he was a minister to them onely , and to none other societie whatsoever , or in what respect soever ; your opinion is contrary to the judgement and practise of the universall church , and tendeth to destroy the unitie of the church , and that communion which the churches of god may and ought to have one with another ; for if he be not a minister in other churches , then are not the churches of god one , nor the ministers one , nor the flocke which they feed one , nor the communion one which they have each with other . and if the pastor derive all his authoritie to feede from the church , when the church hath set him aside , what right hath he to administer among that people . if they erre in their deposition , it is true they sinne against christ . but as they give right to an unworthy man to administer among them , if they call him unjustly , so they take right from the worthy if wrongsully they depose him . the minister is for his ministery the office for the execution , and so the pastor and the flocke are relatives : and therefore if their election gave him authoritie among them to seed , their casting him off hath stripped him of the same power which formerly they gave him . and his ministery ceasing , he should cease to be their minister , if he stood as minister onely to that congregation in every respect . whit. depont . q. 4. sec. 10. pa. 559. certe lex naturae & ratio clamitat cujus est instituere ejus est destruere , sive destituere , ad quem institutio pertinet ad eundem destitationem , seu destructionem pertinere . rob. aga . b. p. 214. if the congregation may chuse and elect their governours , then they may refuse and reprobate them . viii . position . that one minister cannot performe any ministeriall act in another congregation . answer . if you take ministeriall act improperly as sometimes it is taken by some , onely when the minister of one church doth exercise his gifts of praying and preaching in another church , being by themselves so desired . then we answer , in this sense a minister of one church may do a ministeriall act in another , which he doth not perform by vertue of any calling , but onely by his gifts ; and thus upon any occasion we mutually perform those acts one in anothers churches : but if you meane by ministeriall act , such an act of authoritie and power in dispensing of gods ordinance as a minister doth perform to the church , whereunto he is called to be a minister ; then we deny that he can so perform any ministeriall act to any other church but his own , because his office extends no further then his call . for that solemne charge , act. 20. 28. is not to feed all flocks , but that one flock onely , over which the holy ghost hath made them over-seers . if the question were propounded to any minister so exercising in an others church , which was once to our saviour by the chief priests and elders : by what power doest thou these things , and who gave thee this authoritie ? let that minister whosoever he be , study how to make an answer . reply . the preaching of the word , publick prayer in the congregation met together solemnly to worship god , and the administration of the sacraments , are acts properly ministeriall ( if any other ) to be performed by power and authoritie from christ , as you acknowledge , for the preaching of the word , and dispensation of the seales in your second consideration . but these acts one minister may performe in another congregation , or towards the members of another church . you know by whom your question hath been propounded touching one ministers exercising in another ministers church , and how it hath been answered ; and if you see more light and truth then formerly , we would desire you substantially to confute what answers some of you have returned to that demand . to admit ( saith mr. j. d. ) those that are known members of another church to communion in the sacraments upon fitting occasions i hold lawfull , and do professemy readinesse to practise accordingly . again , i conceive that ( besides my membership else where , and the right which those churches give to known passants of being admitted to the communion for a short time ) both himself and the whole church acknowledge me for a member with them for the time of my abode in that service , which they testified by desiring the help of my publick labours , and their cheerfull admittance of me to that ordinance during that time without the least scruple . and if a minister may pray , preach , blesse the congregation in the name of the lord , and receive the sacrament with them , being thereunto requested ; we doubt not but by consent of the pastor and the congregation he may lawfully dispense the seals amongst them also as need and occasion requires . that distinction of preaching by office , and exercising his gifts onely , when it is done by a minister , and desired of none but ministers , and that in solemne , set , constant church-assemblies , we cannot find warranted in the word of truth , and therefore we dare not receive it . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a70435-e890 it is truly observed by master davenport out of ambros . offic. l 1. c. 1. et quantum libet quisque profecerit , nemo est qui doceri non indigeni dum vi●it . appoll . preface to the reader . wrence these men ( saith cann against robi ) superstitiously addicted to their new devise , that beware how to reject the unanimous judgment and practice of all learned men and true churches . stay against straying . pag. 47. i am and shall be always ready to give all due respect to those good customes of churches , which are taken upon good warrant and ground , and long continued among gods people . i. d. apol. p. 31. good customes taken up by the churches upon good grounds should not lightly be broken or laid downe , wherein i doe fully agree with the authour of that elaborate commentary upon the fourth chapter of iohn , i. d. apol. sect. 12. examina . p. 251. notes for div a70435-e1210 this argument is used by the abridgment against conformity to the ceremonies , and we do not see but it is as strong against this liturgy . whereas the publisher of this answer to the six positions , refers the reader to mr. cottons answer unto mr. ball for satisfaction in this point concerning set formes of prayer . the reader is earnestly intreated to compare master balls treatise , and mr cottons answer with seriousnesse and indifferencie , because mr ball having received that answer before the publishing of his treatise ( being much enlarged , whereof mr , cotton was ignorant ) was confident , that with addition of some marginall no●es ( which in reference thereto he added ) his treatise would sufficiently defend it selfe , against all the assaults , which that answer made against it . notes for div a70435-e2000 we may not communicate at all in that ministery , which is exercised by an unlawfull person or in an unlawful . place robinson against bern. counsell debated p 17 ibid. pag 79 esa . 56. 10. ezech 4● . 7 , 8. mic 3. 11 , 12. ier. 5. 31. esa . 9 15 , 6. ioh. 2. 16. math 5. 20 , 21. & 15. 4 , 5. & 23 1 ▪ 3. 14. math. 16 6. 12. & 15. 14. see whitak de pontif q 4. f : 10. pag. 557. phil. 1. 15. hos . 4 6 , 7. 1 sam. 2. 12 , 13 , 14 , 17 , 14. ier. 8. 8 , 9. mic 3. 11 , 12. phil 1. 15. helv conf . cap 18 § 11. & 19 §. 9 , gal. conf . art . 28 arg. conf . art. 13. saxon. conf . art. 12 zep. de sac l. 2. c. 6. art. of religion , hybera . art 70 carlton praelect de ecclesia , cap. 20. we see no warrant why for every particular act , that in a larger sence is idolatrous , adjoyned to gods true worship , we should forbeare our presence at the true worship it self . unreason . of seperation . answ to 6. argument . compare what ' master i. d. hath written in defence or excuse in resorting to the assemb . of the separatists , called brownists . apol. sect. 5. exam . p. 6● . & apol. sect. 28 exam . pag. 246. notes for div a70435-e2680 rom 16 16. 1 cor. 11 16. & 14 33. rom 16 4. gal ● 22. 1 thess 2 14. 1 cor 16 19. gal. ● 2. act 15 2. & 19 37. & 15. 25 38. eph. 4. 4 , 5. acts. 2. 38. 41. gen 1. 10. math. 28. 14 20. robins . against bern. reas . discus . pa. 77. lev 2. 13. deut. 29. 12. & 26. 17. 18. rom. 3. 2 deut. 4 6. psa . 247 19 20 neb. 9. 13. act. 7. 38. luk. 16. 29. 2 cor 5 19 & 11. 2. deut 33. 3. 10. 8. 30 robin against bern p 159. act 14 22. t it 1 5. rob : against bern. act 11 26. in the same verse the same persons are called the church disciples , and christians pag. 106 107. 211 &c. also pag. 51 ezeck . 46. 10 see lava●er on ezek math 18. 20. ier. 14. 9. ios. 24. 14 rom. 10. 14 act 2. 42 as christ is that one great pastor , so hath hee generally one fold and flock , iohn 10. 16. ezeck . 34 22 , 23 which is his church , as he saith . and ye my flock , the flock of my pasture are men , ezek 34. 31. aynsw . cant 1. 8. sure it is that hee is none of christs sheepe visibly , or in respect of men which is without christs sheepfold , for there is one sheepfold and one sheepheard . iohn 10 16. robins against bern likelihoods , p. 61. hieron . tom . 2. ep. 85. nec altera romae urbis ecclesia , alteratotius orbis existimanda est , & gallia , & britannia , & asia , &c. & omnes barbarae nationes unum christum adorant , unam observant regulam veritatis . 1 cor 12. 28. col. 1. 21. 1 cor. 12 , 13. 1 cor. 15. 9. gal. ● . 13. phil. 3. 6. 1 tim. 3. 15. 1 pet. 5. 2. pastores sunt omnes , sed grex unus qui ab apostolis omnibus unanimi consensu pascatur . cypr. de unitate ecclesiae . etsi pastores multi sumus , unum tamen gregem pascimus , cypr. l. 3. epistola 13. cum sit a christo una ecclesia per totum mundum in multa membra divisa item episcopatus unus episcoporum multorum concordi numero diffusus , &c. cypr. l. 4. ep. 7. iohn 9. 22 35. & 12. 42 & 16. 2. a●●anasius may be for an example . gen 17. 7. lev. 16. 12. apo. 1 11. 13. heb. 16. 10. rob. against bern. pa. 127. rom. 4. 12. ●8 . gen. 12. 3. gal. 26 , 7 , 3 , 15 , 16 , 17 rob. against b●r. pa. 2●2 . see mr. i. d. apol. 11. sect. exam p. 117. i. d. apol. 5. sect. exem . pag. 61 , & 18. bucer . diss . ep 3 pa 43 & ep 48. pa. 226. act. 8. 6. & 15 4. act 8. 12. 14. & 18. 12. acts 2. 41. & 4. 4. & 5 14. & 6. 1. & 6. 7 ezra . 2. 36 , 37 , 38. act. 6. 2 & 81. 15. 2 , 4 , 6 , 22 , 23 & 16. 4. & 21 18. 28. act 11. 21. act. 11 24 26 act. 13 12 et 14. 27. et 15. 30 34 , 35. acts 19 10. & 16. 9 & 29. 27. acts 19. 19. robinson against bern p. 196. euseb h●st l. ● c. 35 ●at 43. g●ae● 33. raff . 1 hit de sacra contr de bapt . qu 2 & 3 pag 237 , 238. a●●ers . of the sacr : l. 2 c 6 fol. 211. 〈◊〉 de p●es●y● . pag. 79. act. 14 ●3 col. 4. 17 1 pet 5. 2 act 20. 28 ioh. 4. 2. & 23 23. mark. 9. 15. act 17 22 23 32. & 19. 8. 9 rob. against ●ern . p 151 these keyes in d. &c. in the corporation ( the church ) there is alwayes the whole power of christ to residing , which you may call officers for the use of it selfe , to which it is sufficient that it can without officers use this power for things simply necessary ; as for receiving in of members by profession of faith and confession of sins , for edifying of them by exhortation and comforts in the ordinance of prophesying , and so for excommunication . rob. against b. pag. 224. see rob. against ber. pag. 130. 131. 132. if you call it consultation in an assembly wherein all have equall power and voyce in determining things some one going before the rest idem pag 202 robins against bern. coun. debated , p 32. ibid. p. 79. 1 cor. 11 28. 2 cor. 23. 5. beza de presbyt . & excom . pag. 32 robins against bern. pag. 252. acts 20 28 the word of god and canons of councels will have pastors so to care for their own flock , that they forbid them not to care for the whole church , especially in a time of common combustion . the answer of some brethren , pag 12. publica dei invocatio non minima pars communis in unâ fide consensionis . beza contra erastum , de presbyt pap . 13. euseb . hist 5. c. 26. graec. cham●●● panst . tom 2. l. 10. c. 8. sect. 16. the churches plea , pag 44. ap●l pag. 117 & 298. orig. in isa . hom. 6. qui vocatur ad episcopatum , vocatur ad servitutem totius ecclesiae . chrysoft . in 2 cor. hom . 18. vniversae curam gerimus . see cham panstr . tom. 2. pag. 10. cap. 12. sect. 8 , 9 , 10. &c. jun. animadv . in bellar. contro . 5. lib. 1. c. 3. not . 3. & cap. 7 not . 7. act. 13. 15. rom. 16 3. 12. phil. 2. 15 , 16. & 4. 2. ●am 5. 19 , 20. act. 4. 26. 40 & 9 38. & 10. 5. & 11. 19. 21 1 cor. 14. 23 , 24. esay 2. 3. ezr. 8. 23. 10. 1. 41. 45. & 42. 9. & 12. 20. revel . 3. 9 what example have you but grounds for the baptising of infants ? or where read you of any officer excommunicated by any rob. against ber. p. 214. we may not expect examples of any pastors in scriptures : who did thus . i. d. apol. 9. sect. exam p. 1●3 . see i. d. apol. texts . exam pa. 288. exod 1248. exod. 447. col 2. 11 , 12. erast so objects against bern. sicut a circumcisione ad baptismum argumentamur ut probemus infantes esse baptizandos , ita etiam licet ab agno paschatis ad coenam domini , &c. whereto hee truly replyeth . ego vero , non negolicere &c. at non temere & universaliter . beza contra erast . pag. 23. ●ev . 12. 23. & 22. 7 exo. 22. 30 , eph. 215. etiam si daremus nullam legi ab apostolis excommunicationem non tamen sequeretur ita esse , quum satis constet non omnium singularia apostolorum gesta perscripta fuisse . bez. de presb. p. 7. et si de melchizedeck & iobo quae huc adferuntur non sunt extra controversiam . nam foedere cum abra. inito non excluduntur ij qui ante erant in foedere sed accensentur foederi . ita autem se habuit melchizedeck , &c. omnino enim consors promissionis divine fuit ante foedus cum eo initum . gen. 17. job vero & credens fuit promissionibus foederis & de sententia veterum fuit circumcisus etiam haereditarià circumcisione a paterno maternaque sanguine . vt elegantèr scribit author libri de verà circumcisione qui hieron . ad scribitur . iun. anim adv . in bellar . contrav . 4. lib. 3. cha . 16. not . 13. 1● . d. exam 〈◊〉 tents p 309. mat. 3. 7. 10 42. act. 2 37 , 38. 41. & 8 37. & 10. 47. 48. 1. cor. 5. 12. 1. job . 2. 19. 1. cor. 11. 19. rev. 22. 15. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 1. tim. 3. 7. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , & script . ethnici apud patres audiunt . 01 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . matth. 8. 11. ephes . 2. 12. rob. against ber. p. 101. * mr. 10. d. apol. sect. 40. exam p. 182. what though this inconvenience do arise sometimes through mans corruption it should be otherwise ; and we must ever consider of the nature of gods ordinances in their right use , &c. rob. against ber. pa. 213. respondit caam nullam fuisse cur 10. bapt. istos accedentes rejiceret ut qui ad ejus bapt . venirent cum peccatorum agnitione nec ipse potestatem haberet eos excommunicandi etiamsi fuissent excom . digni . beza de presb. p 23. recte sane quis illos à sacris prohibuerat , &c. etsi sit tam sceleratus quispiam quam esse exist imatur tum si tale judicium sibi quisque sumat quae mox fuerit ecclesie facies ? sed pretered tenendum est istud in hoc negotio inita cujuspiam cons . non probabillas rectam alterius consciam . id. pa. 26. id in privatorum arbitrio relinquere ut alibi diximus & periculosum nimis & toti ecclesiae valde damnosum fuisset . id. p. 80. demonstr . of disc . ca. 4. rob. against bern. likely veiwed . p. 40. john 4. 2. math. 28. 19. 1 cor. 14. 34 , 35. tit. 2. 11 , 12. rob. ag . ber. pa. 206. rob. ag . bern. pa. 239. matth 3 6 , 7. iob. 4 2. and 3. 22. matt. 28 19. 20. act. 2. 37 , 38. act. 8. 12. act. 8. 47. & 11. 16. 17. act 8 37. act. 10 47. and 11. 16. 17. act. 9. 18. act. 16 , 14. 33. 1. cor. 1. 17. matth. 28. 19. act. 2. 41. and 8. 12 , 13 , 37. helv. conf . c. 20. gallic . sect. 35. anglic. & ab eo neminem qui velit profiteri nomen christi ne infantes quidem christianorum hominum , &c. scot. conf . c. 23. belgi● . act . 34. zengerm , conf . de bapt. insant . pro. 44. argent . conf . ca. 17. saxon , confes . ca. 14. palab . conf . sect. ad usum vero ipsum , &c. rob. against ber. pa. 92. matth. 28. 19. act. 2. 41. & 8. 12 13 37. and 10. 47. and 2. 39. 1 cor. 7. 19. act. 8. 27. act. 4. 15. joh 4. 2 , 3. & 3. 27. act. 10. 48. whit. de sacra . q. 3. de bap. cap. 2. pa 260. act. 8. 12. & 9. 18. 1 cor. 1. 17. against b. pa. 88. see j. d. ap. sect. 12. pa. 152 , 153 , 154. deut. 30. 6. rom. 10. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9. rom. 4. 11. gen. 17. 11 , 12 and 26. 4. act. 2. 38. gal. 3. 26. 27. tit. 3. 5. mat. 20. 23. 1 pet. 3. 21. 1 cor. 1. 30. matth. 3. 6. 7. mark 1. 4. 5. luk. 13. 3. 16. matth. 28. 19 , 20. mar. 16. 15 , 16. act. 2. 37. 47. act. 8. 12. 14. act 9. 11-17 . act. 10. 43-48 . notes for div a70435-e8780 vid. park . pol. ecclesiastica . l. 3. c. 1 , 2 &c. a fen. theol. lib. 7. park . de pol. lib. 3. c. 1. j. d. apol. 27. sect. exam . p● . 238 , 239 , 240. b rob. against ber. pa. 182. by two or three are meant the meanest communion or societie of saints , with or without officers . rob. against ber. certaine observations , p. 4. onely he that is of the true visible church and furnished with the power of christ , the keyes of the kingdome for the censure can admonish his brother in order , and those degrees which the word prescribeth mat. 28. 15. 17. id. pa 99. the power as to receive in , so to cut off any member is given to the whole body together of every christian congregation , and not to any one member apart , or to more members sequestred from the whole , using the meetest number for pronouncing the censures , id. pa. 124-126 . if the brethren have libertie in the ordinance of prophesying , they have also libertie in the other ordinance of excommunication , for they are both of the same nature ; looke to whom christ gave the one key of knowledge , to them he gave the other key of discipline , rob. against bern. pa. 238 , 239. mat. 28. 19 28. joh. 20. 21 , 22. & 21. 15 , 16. gal. 1. 1. ioh 21. 22. whit. de pont . q. 8. c. 2. 3. 1 cor. 3. 22. & 4. 1. 1 tim. 3. 15. authoritas rectorum pro dono quidem ecclesiae à christo data est , sed non pro dono absoluto , ut penes totam ecclesiam resideat cui datur , sed pro dono conditionali , ut rectoribus ipsis communicetur ad totius aedificationem , park . de polit. lib. 3. cap. 8. 1 cor. 12. 7. 1 cor. 3. 12. 1. tim. 3. 15. 1 cor. 4. 1. act. 20. 28. eph. 4. 8. 11. 1 co. 12. 28 , 29 2 co. 5. 19 , 20. tit. 1. 7. successor habet jurisdictionē ab eo a quo praedecessor , alioqui non verè succedit . but pastors and teachers are the successors of the apostles . whit. de pont . q. 8. c. 3. fr : victor rel . 2. de potest ecclesiae q. 2. alphons . de castr . li. 2. c. 24. de insta baret . whit. de pont . q. 8. c. 1. cham. panstr . tom . 2. lib. 11. c. 18. sect . 11. in the church the officers are the ministers of the people , whose service the people is to use for administration and executing their judgements , that is , pronouncing the judgement of the church ( and of god first ) against the obstinate . rob. against ber. p. 136. the officers in the church are both christs and the peoples servants and ministers . id. p. 165. ames bel. enerv . tom . 2. l. 3. c. 1. ministri ecclesiastici sunt ecclesie tanquam objecti circa quod versantur ministri sunt christi tanquam principalis causae & domini à quo pendent ministri sed nullo modo episcoporum . omnis legatus in causâ legationis suae immediatè pendet ab eo à quo mittitur , & instrumento mandatorum in corrupto est indelebili . a we denie the order of elders to be superiour to the order of saints , since it is not an order of mastership but of service . rob. against bern. pa. 201. it were a strange thing that men could have no command over their servants , as i have oft shewed the church-officers to be her servants . id. p. 214. the order of servants is inferiour to the order of them whose servants they are : but the order of church-officers is an order of servants , and they by office to serve the people , id. p. 215. 227. notes for div a70435-e9550 heb. 13. 1. pro. 12. 19. & 1 7. 23. gen 4. 4. 9. levit. 19. 17. mat. 18. 15. gal. 6. 1. rob. ag . bern. pa. 230. exod. 24. 37. deut. 2. 14. & 4. 3. 4. & 9. 7. ezek. 16. 6. 8. nū . 23. 48. 50. deut. 29. 10. 11 , 12. josh 24. 1. 14. 23 , 24 , 25. iudg. 2. 8. 11. & 3. 9. 15. & 6. 7. & 10. 10-17 . 2 chr. 15. 12 2 kin. 11. 17. & 23. 3. 2 chr. 34. 31. heb. 10 29. 30 act. 2. 38. & 8. 37. & 19. 17 , 18 , 19. act. 8. 37. notes for div a70435-e10210 whit. de pontq . 1 ca. 1. p. 14. ep. 13. li. 3. rom 15. 14. heb. 3. 13. bel. de cler. li. ● . c. 7. jun. animad . contr . 5. l. c 7. no● . 13. rom. 12. 12. theod. hist . l. 4. c. 6. aug epist . 110. & 225. socrat. hist . l 7. c. 34 , 35. 39. zozom . hist . l. 2. c. 18 , 19. nazian . in epitaphium patris evagr. l. 2. c. 5. 8. theod. hist . l. 5. c. 23. jun. animadver in bel. cont 5. l. 1. c. 7. nor . 16 , 17. cartur . reply 2d . part 1. pa. 212. illiris . catal . test . li. 2. tit . ecclesiae gubern . jos . antiq. l. 20. c. 18. c. 4. see ambros . de officijs . l. 1. c. 50. hieron . ad ocean & epist. ad nepotian . t. c. reply 1. pa. 41. a rever . cathol . orth . tract . 2. q. 8. sect. 3. cartw. reply 2. par . 1. pa. 273. notes for div a70435-e10930 to baptise is a duty of the pastors pastoriall office . ● . d. apol ser. exam . pa. 287. exam. of texts , pa. 290. apol. exam . of texts . p. 288. a tryall of the nevv-church vvay in new-england and in old ... by that learned and godly minister of christ, john ball of whitmore ; penned a little before his death and sent over to the new england ministers, anno 1637, as a reply to an answer of theirs in justification of the said positions ... ; now published ... by william rathband and simeon ash. ball, john, 1585-1640. 1644 approx. 321 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 50 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2006-06 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a63200 wing t2229 estc r20975 12295359 ocm 12295359 59009 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a63200) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 59009) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 160:11) a tryall of the nevv-church vvay in new-england and in old ... by that learned and godly minister of christ, john ball of whitmore ; penned a little before his death and sent over to the new england ministers, anno 1637, as a reply to an answer of theirs in justification of the said positions ... ; now published ... by william rathband and simeon ash. ball, john, 1585-1640. rathband, william, d. 1695. ashe, simeon, d. 1662. letter of many ministers in old england requesting the judgement of their reverend bretheren in new england. [12], 90 p. printed by t. paine and m. simmons for thomas underhill ..., london : 1644. a reissue, with cancel t.p., of a letter of many minsters in old england, requesting the judgement of their reverend brethren in new england concerning nine positions. london, 1643. reproduction of original in harvard university libraries. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy 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proquest page images 2006-03 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2006-03 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-04 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a tryall of the nevv-chvrch vvay in new-england and in old . wherein are handled these questions following . 1. whether a stinted forme of prayer and set liturgie be unlawfull . 2. whether it be unlawfull to joyne in prayer , or receive the sacraments where a stinted liturgie is used . 3. whether the children of godly and approved christians , be not to be baptized till their parents be set-members of some particular congregation . 4. whether the parents themselves being of approved pietie , ought not to be received to the lords supper , untill they be first admitted as set-members . 5. whether the power of excommunication , &c. be so in the body of the church , that what the major part shall allow , that must be done , though the pastors and governors , and part of the assembly be of another minde , and peradventure upon more substantiall reasons . 6. whether those that are admitted as set-members , ought not to depart or remove , without the consent of that congregation whereof they are members . 7. whether a minister be so a minister to a particular congregation , that if they dislike , or leave him , he utterly ceaseth to be a minister . 8. whether a minister may not performe ministeriall acts to another congregation then his owne . 9. whether members of one congregation , may not communicate in another . by that learned and godly minister of christ , john ball , of whitmore . penned a little before his death , and sent over to the new england ministers , anno 1637. as a reply to an answer of theirs in justification of the said positions . now published ( by occasion mentioned in the epistle to the reader following in the next page ) upon the desire of many godly and faithfull ministers , in and about the citie of london , who love and seek the truth . by william rathband and simeon ash . 1 thes . 5. 21. prove all things , hold fast that which is good . london : printed by t. paine and m. simmons , for thomas vnderhill in great wood-street , 1644. to the reader . good reader , vpon the receipt of the answer returned unto the nine positions , master ball moved by the request of brethren , drew up this reply , which upon perusall and joynt approbation , was directed unto the reverend elders of the severall churches in new england . the reply sent miscarrying in the hand , to which it was committed , though both letters and printed bookes trusted in the same hand were delivered : hereupon another copie was from new england desired , and accordingly prepared in the yeare following . in the meane time , the answer being tendered to the presse , it was judged more meete to keepe the reply in readinesse to attend the publishing of the answer , then to part with it in the other way . this intelligence was the last yeare conveyed into new england , since which time , there hath been an expectation to see that in print , which now is sent abroad to open view . by this relation it is manifest who are voluntiers , and who are pressed to come forth as defendants , in these controversies . these differences betwixt the loving brethren of old england and new , had not been made thus notorious , if some who cry up the church way in new england , as the only way of god , had not been forward , to blow them abroad in the world . but surely the providence of god is remarkeable in bringing these questions into debate at this time , when the ministers of the gospell from all the counties in the kingdome are called together by both houses of parliament , to consult about the healing of our breaches , which are very many and dangerous : the copie of this reply being committed to our custodie we are necessitated to appeare in the publication of it : yet we shall preface nothing concerning the treatise it selfe , because our known respects to the reverend and judicious author will render us partiall , and our testimony can adde no credit to his works , which withall indifferent readers will plead sufficiently for their own acceptance . if this discourse shall adde any discovery of light unto them , who desire a sound judgement in the controversies here agitated , our end is obtained , and our prayers answered , who are . thy servants in and for the truth , simeon ash , william rathband . the letter of those ministers in england , who requested to know the judgement of their brethren in new england , in nine positions , wherein the reasons , of this their request , are truly reported . ( reverend and beloved brethren ) whiles we lived together in the same kingdome , we professed the same faith , joyned in the same ordinances , laboured in the worke of god to gaine soules unto his kingdome , and maintained the puritie of worship against corruptions , both on the right hand and on the left . but since your departure into new england , we heare ( and partly beleeve it ) that divers have embraced certaine vain opinions , such as you disliked formerly , and we judge to be groundlesse and unwarrantable . as that a stinted forme of prayer , and set liturgie is unlawfull ; that it is not lawfull to joyne in prayer , or to receive the sacrament , where a stinted liturgie is used . 3. that the children of godly and approved christians are not to be baptized , untill their parents bee set members of some perticular congregation . 4. that the parents themselves , though of approved piety are not to be received to the lords supper , untill they bee admitted as set members . 5. that the power of excommunication ▪ &c. is so in the body of the church that what the major part shall allow , that must be done , though the pastors and governors , and part of the assembly be of another minde , and peradventure , upon more substantiall reasons . 6. that none are to be admitted as set members , but they must promise , not to depart , or remove unless the congregation will give leave . 7. that a minister is so a minister to a particular congregation , that if they dislike him unjustly , or leave him , he ceaseth to be a minister . 8. that a minister cannot performe any ministeriall act in another cogregation . 9. that members of one congregation may not communicate in another . these and other such like ( which we omit to reckon up ) are written and reported to be the common tenents in new england , which are received with great applause , maintained with great confidence , and applauded as the only church way wherein the lord is to be worshipped . and letters from new england have so taken with divers in many parts of this kingdome , that they have left our assemblies because of a stinted liturgie , and excommunicated themselves from the lords supper because such as are not debarred from it . and being turned aside themselves , they labour to ensnare others , to the griefe of the godly , the scandall of religion , the wounding of their owne soules ( if they did advisedly consider the matter ) and great advantage of them , that are wily to espy , and ready to make use of all advantages to prejudice the truth . ( beloved brethren ) if you stood in our places , we are well assured it would be no small griefe unto you , to beare and see the people led aside to the disgrace of the gospell , upon weake and groundlesse imaginations , and in rash end inconsiderate zeale to deale with that which is of god , as if it were of man. and if it be to us griefe of heart to heare that you have changed from that truth which you did professe , and embrace that for truth which in former times upon sound grounds you did condemne as erroneous , we hope you will not be offended . you know how oft it hath beene objected that non-conformists in practice are separatists in heart , but that they goe crosse to their own positions , or smother the truth for sinister ends . they of the separation boast that they stand upon the non-conformists grounds . a vainglorious flourish and sleight pretence . but both these are much countenanced by your sudden change if you be changed , as it is reported . how shall your brethren bee able to stand up in the defence of their innocencie , and the uprightnesse of their cause , when your example and opinion shall be cast in their dish ? must they leave you now , with whom they have held society ? or will you plead for separation , which you have condemned as rash and inconsiderate ? you know that thy who have run this way , have fallen into manifold divisions , and may not you justly feare , lest the same befall you ? some warnings you have had already , and have you not cause to feare every day more and more ? errour is very fruitfull and will spread apace . a cracke in the foundation may occasion a wide breach in the building , where there will not be means , or mind to amend it . experience every day may tutour us herein . but to let passe all inconveniences , our request in all meeknesse and love is , that if these or any of the forementioned opinions be indeed your tenents , you would be pleased to take a second review of your grounds , and send us your strongest reasons that have swayed you in these matters : and if we shall find them upon due examination to be such as will carry weight , we shall be ready to give you the right hand of fellowship ; if otherwise you shall receive our just and modest animadversions in what we conceive you have erred from the truth . you will not iudge , if we cannot apprehend the strength of your grounds it is because we love not the truth ▪ or bee carryed with by-spects ( though these conceipts prevaile too much : ) such rigid and harsh censures , cannot lodge in meeke and humble breasts . weighty reasons promote the truth not unadvised judging . you your selves have judged that to be errour , which now you take to be truth when yet you were not blinded with by re-respects , nor hudwinked your eyes , that you might not see the light . and if you have just warrant from god to pull downe what you have builded , and to build what you have pulled downe , we desire you would lovingly and maturely impart it , for as yet we have seene none , which we are not ready to prove , and shew by the rule of truth to be too weake to carry any burthen . we adore with you the fulnesse of the scripture , and we know the counsell of the lord shall stand : if you can shew that you walke in the wayes of god , we shall heartily rejoyce to walke with you : but if you have turned aside , we shall earnestly desire that you would be pleased seriously to consider the matter , and speedily reforme , what is out of order . thus not doubting of your favourable interpretation of this our motion , for the preventing of distraction , maintenance of peace , and searching out of the truth , whereby we may be directed to live to the praise of god , the good of his people , and comfort of our soules , beseeching god to lead and guide us into all truth and holinesse , and keepe us blamelesse untill his glorous appearance , we rest your loving brethren . an epistle written by the elders of the churches in new-england , to those godly ministers fore-mentioned that sent over the positions . reverend and beloved brethren : in these remote coasts of the earth , whereunto the good hand of god hath brought us , as we doe with much comfort of heart call to mind the many gracious blessings , which both with you , and from you , we injoyed in our christian and holy communion , ( the memory and fruit whereof we hope shall never be blotted out ) so we have also seen cause to looke back to our former administrations there , and to search and trie our wayes ; that wherein soever we have formerly gone astray , we might judge our selves for it before the lord : and that seeing now god hath set before us an open doore of libertie , wee might neither abuse our libertie in the gospel , to runne out into any groundlesse unwarrantable courses , nor neglect the present opportunitie to administer ( by the helpe of christ ) all the holy ordinances of god , according to the patterne set before us in the scripture ; in our native countrey , when we were first called to the ministery , many of us tooke some things to be indifferent and lawfull , which in after-times we saw to be sinfull , and durst not continue in the practise of them there ; afterwards some things that we bare as burthens , that is , as things inexpedient though not utterly unlawfull ; we have no cause to retain and practise the same things here , which would not have been not onely inexpedient , but unlawfull : such things as a man may tollerate when he cannot remove them , hee cannot tollerate without sinne , when he may remove them ; besides some things we practised there ( which wee speak to our shame and griefe ) which we never took into serious consideration whether they were lawfull , and expedient or no , but took them for granted , and generally received ; not onely by the most reformed churches , but by the most godly and judicious servants of god amongst them ; which neverthelesse when we came to weigh them in the ballance of the sanctuarie , we could not find sufficient warrant in the word to receive them , and establish them here : of one of these three kinds will these our present practises appeare to be , which you call our new opinions , or , innovations here ; except it be some few of them , which though they have been reported to you to be our judgements and practises , yet are indeed farre from us : the particulars are too many , and too weightie to give you account of them , and the ground of our proceedings about them in a letter . but to give you ( if it be the will of god ) the better satisfaction , we have sent you a short treatise touching each particular , that according to your desire you might understand from us how farre we do acknowledge any of these tenents , and upon what ground , hoping that according to your promise , if upon due examination you shall find any weight in them , you will give us the right hand of fellowship . but if otherwise , you will send us your just and faithfull animadversions , and we doe not suspect your loves to the truth , or your sincere speaking according to your conscience in the sight of god , neither taxe we you as siding from the truth with by-respects , whereof you complain , verily we abhorre such rash , harsh , and presumptuous notoriousnesse , we see as much cause to suspect the integritie of our own hearts , as yours ; and so much the more , as being more privie to the deceitfulnesse of our own hearts then to yours . and we cannot but with much thankfulnesse of heart acknowledge the many rich precious treasures of his grace , wherewith the lord hath furnished sundrie of you above your brethren , which causeth us with great reverence to accept , and receive what further light god may be pleased to impart unto us by you ; but as we have beleeved , so have we hitherto practised , and so have most of us spoken this our answer to your particulars , most of us we may say , because there wants not some brethren amongst us who proceed further , even to looke at all set formes of prayer invented by men of another age or congregation , and prescrib●d to their brethren to be read out of a book for the prayers of the church , as images , or imaginations of men , forbidden in the second commandement ; but as we leave them to their libertie of their own judgements without prejudice , so do we also concurre with the rest of them , so farre as we all goe in bearing witnesse against any set formes , or the corruptions in them ; in dispatching whereof , we have been the more slow because it behoved us first to inquire into , and to settle some controversies amongst our selves , before we could well attend to entertaine discourse about forraigne questions which do not so neerely concerne our present estate and practise . besides your letters being sent to the ministers of the churches , and some of us dwelling farre a sunder , it was not an easie thing for all of us often to meet together to consider of these questions , much lesse to resolve upon one just answer . but having at length ( by the assistance of god ) brought our answers to this issue , we commend it to the blessing of the lord , and in him to your christian , and judicious consideration ; where if all things bee found safe , and duely warranted from scripture grounds ; do you also as seemeth vigilant watchmen of the lords flock , and faithfull witnesses to god ; if any thing seeme doubtfall to you , consider and weigh it very well before you reject it : if any thing appeare to be unfound , and dissnant from the word ( which we for our parts cannot disterne ) we shall willingly attend to what further light god may send unto us by you : in the meane while wee intreat you in the lord , not to suffer such apprehensions to lodge in your minds , which you intimate in your letters ; as if we here justified the wayes of riged separation , which sometimes amongst you we have formerly borne witnesse against ▪ and so build againe the things we have destroyed ; you know they separate from your congregations , as no churches ; from the ordinances dispensed by you as meere antichristian , and from your selves as no visible christians . but wee professe unfainedly , we separate from the corruptions which we conceive to be left in your churches , and from such ordinances administred therein as we feare are not of god , but of men ; and for your selves , we are so farre from separating as from no visible christians , as that you are under god in our hearts ( if the lord would suffer it ) to live and die together ; and we looke at sundrie of you as men of that eminent growth in christianitie , that if there be any visible christians under heaven , amongst you are the men , which for these many yeeres have been written in your foreheads ( hoiinesse to the lord ) which we speake not to prejudice any truth which our selves are here taught and called to professe , but we still beleeve though personall christians may be eminent in their growth of christianitie : yet churches had still need to grow from apparent defects to puritie ; and from reformation to reformation , age after age , till the lord have utterly abolished antichrist with the breath of his mouth , and the brightnesse of his comming to the full and cleare revelation of all his holy truth ; especially touching the ordering of his house and publick worship ; as a pledge of this our estimation of you , and sincere affection to you , we have sent you these answers to your demand , and shall be readie , by the help of christ , to receive back againe from you , wise , and just , and holy advertisements in the lord. now the lord god , and father of our lord jesus christ , your lord , and ours ; lead us all unto all truths , purge out all leaven out of his churches , and keepe us blamelesse and harmlesse in his holy faith and feare , to his heavenly kingdome , through him that hath loved us ; in whom we rest , your very loving brethren , the elders of the churches in new-england . reverend and dearely beloved brethren , it is not to be doubted but while we live here , we shall have just cause to search and try our ways , look back upon former courses , and call things done to more strict examination . for being over-clouded with ignorance , compassed about with infirmities , and beset with many temptations to sinne , knowing what we know best , but darkly and in part , no marvell , if in many things we offend ignorantly , of frailty for want of due consideration , rashly mistaking errour for truth , condemning truth for errour , suspecting evill without cause , and not suspecting where is just reason , drawing erronious conclusions from sound principles , and maintaining truths upon weak grounds ; so that in examination of our wayes , and endevours of their reformation wee had need to looke warily , that wee turn not to the right hand or to the left , for in the one we add to the word of god , as well as in the other , and of our selves are apt to strike aside to both . a loose conscience will be profane , a tender , scrupulous . it stands us therefore upon to have our selves in suspition , in as much as experience teacheth that many have swerved from the path of found peace and comfort on each hand . wherefore ( beloved brethren ) if since your comming into new england , upon serious review of former actions you have discovered any truths heretofore not taken notice of , we shal be so far from rejecting them because of your former judgment and practice , that we shall heartily desire to know and imbrace the same with you , and blesse god for you as the happy instruments of his glory , our instruction & the advancement of the truth . but if the discoveries be of the like nature with the positions mentioned in the letter ; as before , so still , we conceive them to be new opinions , and not warranted by scripture , which is the true antiquity . opinions we say , not practices , for not changing your opinion , you might lawfully alter your practice ; nay , what you did tolerate formerly as a burthen , in case not free , you might well forgoe being at your liberty . your judgement being the same , you might use your liberty in forbearance of a set liturgie , and yet retaine the same judgement of a stinted liturgie , that you had before ; you might forbeare for a time upon speciall reason ( such as present state and occasion might suggest ) to receive to the sacrament approved christians , not set members of a particular congregation ; as some brethren do ) who yet dare not think it unlawfull to communicate with such in the act of worship , or deem it just and right altogether to debar them , as having no right nor title to those priviledges of this church . it is your opinions whereto we had respect not simply your practice . it never entred into us to perswade you to a set liturgy , much lesse to complain that you had not accepted ours . but that all stinted liturgies should be condemned as devised worship , and so condemned as that none may lawfully be present at , or pertake of the sacraments administred in a stinted or devised forme , this wee called a new opinion . neither do we mention it because we knew it to be the private opinion of some brethren among you , whom we had left to the liberty of their owne judgment , so far as the maintenance of the truth , and a just call did not ingage us : but because it was cryed up , and advanced with all diligence , and endeavour of some among us standing affected england-ward , as if a chief point of holinesse consisted in separation . you know how great a fire a little sparkle kindles . and seeing this distraction and rent had its originall , growth and continuance from some brethren in those parts , or affected to that way , when in loving and friendly manner we could neither receive grounds at home for our conviction , nor procure just satisfaction to the contrary ; what could wee doe lesse then call upon you joyntly to know your judgment , and either by sound proof to be by you convinced ( if happily you should approve their separation ( which we esteem groundlesse , rash , unlawfull , and prejudiciall to outward peace ) or being backed by a testimony of its dislike from you , we might the better be both incouraged , and furnished to endevour the quenching of that fire which was kindled but in too many places , in other perticulars also , wee conceive , you goe beyond commission given of god : granting them authority to whom god hath not committed it , debarring others from the priviledge of the sacraments , who have title thereto by the covenant of grace . your love in that you were pleased to signifie first your kinde and respective acceptance of our letter , and now also to send us an answer thereto , we acknowledge it with all thankfulnesse , and shall endevour ( through the grace of god ) to return like affection in truth of heart , if in measure we fall short . of your respect to us in particular , we make no question , your expressions are beyond that we could expect , as also what we dare own . but we humbly beseech the lord to direct , uphold , and guide us , that in some measure we may walk worthy of our vocation , and approve our selves faithfull to your consciences . it was one end of our writing to be satisfied in this point , whether you approve the ways of separation ( whereof wee complain ) and their courses who laboured with all their might , when they conceived hope to be heard to perswade thereunto . against which ( if we knew your judgment ) you testified among us . you know they that separate are not all of one straine and temper . some deny all communion with us publick and private , some admit of private , but deny all publick , and some joyne in prayer before , and after sermon , as also preaching of the word ( because in their esteeme , this may be done without communion in a church-way ) but refuse to partake of the sacraments . all which separations wee judge uncharitable , contrary to the commandement of christ , and have ever thought that you ( whilst with us ) and we were of one minde herein . if of late we have conceived fears of some of you ( deere brethren ) as leaning too much to what formerly you disliked , we beseech you weigh what urgent and pressing reasons forced us thereunto , and we shall most gladly ( wee heartily desire you to rest assured ) lay hold of every line and syllable , that may tend to dislodge such apprehensions . for as we conceive , the dispute to be unreasonably moved , the rent offensive , the opinions themselves prejudiciall to the cause of god , and the advancers thereof to have passed the limits prescribed by god ; so wee shall esteem it an inestimable blessing , if ( now what hinders being removed ) wee might joyn with one heart and soule , in one way of god to promote his glory , and seek the good of his church and people . we trust in the lord , we should not draw back in any course wherein wee may see the lord going before us , nor be an offence to any to keep the lords way ; wee seek the truth , and are perswaded it is the cause of god which we defend : we plead for communion with the churches of christ , no further then they hold communion with christ , still desiring to keepe the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace , with your selves and all others , who walke in the right way of truth , peace and comfort . how the lord may be pleased to deale with us , or dispose of us wee know not ( his blessed will be done . ) but of this we are resolved , through his grace , not willingly to raise trouble or dissention among you , if through ignorance or infirmity we shall not so fall in , as to be of one minde with you in these matters . and here we desire you to consider that in these particulars you dissent as much one from another as we dissent from you , and that wherein we dissent from you ( and perhaps from the lesser part of you ) you dissent from the judgement and practice of all reformed churches . this wee speake not to prejudice your cause , but to intreat your serious re-exmination of what you have sent us , and this tryall thereof , by the touchstone of the word . for if we mistake not , in many things it will not abide the test . you have written in great love and tendernesse , that your positions might be so scanned , and wee shall endeavour with such affection to try all things , and hold fast that which is good . and now ( beseeching the guidance of the spirit ) with your leave , wee shall endeavour to deale fully and plainly , as the nature of the cause requireth , intreating you impartially to consider the grounds whereupon we , go and weigh what wee shall say in the ballance of the sanctuary . the lord of his rich mercy in jesus christ , direct us in discerning what is right and pleasing in his sight , cast offences out of the church , close up rents and divisions , reveal his truth more and more , set up and mayntain the purity of his own ordinances , unite the hearts of his people to the love and feare of his holy name , teach us self-deniall , and keep us blamelesse to the comming of the lord jesus christ . amen . i position . that a stinted forme of prayer and set liturgie is unlawfull . answ . before we proceed to declare our selves concerning this position : it will be needfull that some things be premised , for the explication of the terms thereof . we suppose , 1 by a liturgy and forme of prayer , you mean not a forme of private prayers composed for the helpe and direction of weaker christians : but the system or body of publike prayers generally used in the english parishes , complied for the churches use by other men not infallibly guided by god , to be said or read out of a book by their ministers as the churches prayers . and that this is your meaning , may appeare from your letter it self , wherein you complain that divers in many parts of that kingdome have left their assemblies , because of a stinted liturgy . now we know not of any other stinted liturgy from which the people do absent themselves , but onely that which is in use in the english churches . for as for a forme of prayer in generall , wee conceive your meaning cannot be of that . for it is evident that many preachers constantly use one set form of prayer of their own making before their sermons , with whom the people refuse not to joyn . 2 by stinted and set , you mean such prayers , as are so imposed upon the churches and ministers , as that they are limited to that very form of words expressed in the book without addition , diminution , or alteration ; for that liturgy and forme among you , is in this sense set and stinted . 3 by unlawfull , you mean that we looking at that form , as swerving from the rule ; neither dare first practice it our selves , not secondly approve the use of it by others . this being the true state of the question , so far as it appears to us , from the letter . we answer , 1 for our own practice , the churches here doe not use any stinted forme of prayer and set liturgy , for these and other such reasons . 1 because we finde no necessity of any stinted liturgy to be used among us , by vertue of any divine precept . and seeing the commission of the apostles limited them , to teach men to observe and do onely what christ did command them in matters of this nature , math. 28. 20. who are we and what are our churches , that we should presume above this commission ? and , we hope , it will not be offensively taken by any godly brethren , that we stand fast in the liberty wherewith christ hath made us free in this , as well as in all other things . secondly , because the lawfulnesse of set forms and stinted liturgies is questioned and doubted of by many faithfull servants of god : whereas for church-officers to edifie the churches by their own gifts , as well in praying as in preaching , all sorts without controversie grant it to be lawfull . now spirituall prudence guideth believers , when two ways are set before them , one doubtfull though ventured on by some , the other certainly safe and good , though neglected by many , to choose that which is safe , declining the other . thirdly , because primitive paterns of all the churches of god in their best times ( when as touching this point they kept the rule in their eye ) whether jewish before christ , or christian above a 100 yeers after christ , yield not the least footstep to shew us another safe way to walk in , then this which we have chosen . as for after times towards the end of the second , and beginning of the third century , we know how far the churches were then degenerated and declined from the first purity ; neither do we marvell at it , seeing in the apostles time the mystery of iniquity began to work , and it was then foretold , that the power of godlinesse would be in aftertimes exchanged for empty formes . in which respect , we look not at them as our guides neither in this , nor other particulars not warranted by the rule , herein following the advise of cyprian , who himself saw the corruption of those times , non est attendendum quid aliquis ante nos faciendum putaverit , sed quid qui ante omnes est christus fecerit & faciendum praeceperit . to conclude , seeing our christian liberty freeth us from binding our selves to any religious observances , whereunto the written word doth not bind us . and seeing spirituall prudence directs us to choose those ways , which on all hands are confessed to be s●fe , avoiding those that be doubtfull and hazardous . and seeing it will not be safe for us , needlesly to swerve from the constant practice of all churches that are recorded in scripture , and there held forth as a cloud of witnesses for us to follow in matters of this nature , wee therefore may not , doe not , dare not use set forms of prayers and stinted liturgies in these churches . more particularly , in that we doe not use that forme of prayer and stinted liturgy , which is in use among your selves : these and such other like reasons have induced us thereunto . 1 the many and just exceptions whereunto that liturgy is lyable both for matter and manner ; for the proofe whereof wee referre you to those faithfull servants of god , who have gone before us in witnessing against the same : amongst others to master cartwright and the abridgment . 2 in as much as that liturgy was never commanded of god , and hath been greatly abused to idolatry and superstition , and is not of any necessary use , and therefore we are affraid to bring it into the worship of god , as knowing the jealousie of the lord , in matters of this nature ; exod. 20. and how strictly hee commandeth his people , that all monuments and remnants of idolatry and superstition should be abolished from among them , deut. 5. 25 , 26. exod. 23. 13. esay 30. 2● . 2 cor. 6. 17. in which respect the holy ghost hath greatly commended iacob , david , iehu , hezechia and iosiah , for taking away the remembrance of such things , gen. 35. 2 , 4. psal . 16. 4. 2 king 10. 26 , 27. & 18. 4. & 23. all the chapter . and where other kings of iudah came short of the like zeale , the scripture notes it as a blemish in them that the high places were not taken away , albeit the people did not sacrifice in them to false gods , but onely to the lord , 2 chron. 15. 17. & 20. 33. & 33. 17. yea , moreover , it appeareth by the scripture , that somethings that had a good originall and use ( if they be not still necessary and commanded of god ) are unlawfull when once they are knowne to be defiled by idolatry , and abused to it , 2 king. 18. 4. hos . 2. 16 , 17. as the brazen serpent was at the first an institution though but temporary : but when the children of israel burned incense to it . hezechiah , is commended for breaking it in pieces , and the lord witnesseth of him that he did that which was right in the sight of the lord , and according to his commandement , which he commanded moses , 2 king. 18. 3 , 6. how much more in the like case ought other things to be removed , which never were commanded of god , but onely were devised by men ? and that that liturgy hath been supertitiously abused , may be cleer to any that shall consider that it is the same for substance that was used in the days of poperty . and therefore when the papists in devonshire and cornwall , had made a commotion and rebellion upon the change of religion , in the days of king edward the sixth . it was told them by the king , for the pacifying of them : that it was the self-same service in english , which had been before in latine : and if the service of the church was good in latine , it remayneth good in english , for nothing is altered : fox acts and monuments , edward 6. and pope pius the fifth did see so little variation in it from the latine service , that had been formerly used in that kingdome , that he would have ratified it by his authority , if q. elizabeth would have so received it . and many of the people put such holinesse in it , that they think god is not rightly worshipped , nor his sabbath well observed , nor the sacraments sufficiently administred , if there be no reading of that service . and others put such holinesse and necessity in it , that they preferre it before gods holy ordinance of preaching the word . in so much as the ministers are in the danger of being called in question , and of being censured , if they doe not read that liturgy every lords day without omitting any part thereof , either in respect of preaching or otherwise . 3 in regard of the many wofull scandals , and dangerous consequences of using that liturgie , of which we suppose you are not ignorant . to mention but two , viz. the hardning of papists who are imboldned to think better of their own breviaries , masse-books , portuisses , seeing that liturgie hath bin extracted out of those books , and rather fetched from them then from the forms used in any of the reformed churches . 2 the conntenancing and establishing of an unlearned idol ministery , of not-preaching curates , non-residents , pluralities , &c. in whose skirts is to be found the blood of so many mens souls living and dying in their sins , while they ignorantly content themselves with , and harden themselves in some empty forms of religion and blinde devotion , which are begotten and cherished chiefely by such prayers and ministers . neither is there lesse scandall hereby ( we meane not onely taken but given ) then by the eating of an idolathite , in the idols temple condemned by the apostle 1 cor. 8. 7 10. for if the eating of an idolathite by him that had knowledge , and knew that an idol was nothing , and that all meats were lawfull , did imbolden others to honour the idol , and therefore was a scandall given , so also it is in this case . 4 seeing that booke is so imposed as that the minister in reading of it , is limited to the very words set downe without any diminution , addition , or alteration ; therefore we dare not use it . for 1 the lord himselfe hath not limited his people to his own formes and therefore we see not , how it can be lawfull to be limited to other mens formes ; for in thus doing we should subject our selves to the exercise of such an authority and power of the prelates , as in this case puts forth a stronger act of limiting power then christ himselfe , who doth not limit us to those formes , which himselfe hath set downe in scripture : for though we acknowledge the lords prayer and other formes set down in scripture , may be lawfully used as prayers ( due cautions being observed ) yet there is not a limitation lying upon the churches in the use of those prayers . and therefore we do not find that the apostles ever used that form taught by christ in those very words , much lesse limited themselvs to it , when they prayed , nor did they teach the churches so to doe . 2 if the lord would not have us limit our selves in our own forms , whiles we are exercising our own gifts ( which he hath specially sanctified to edify his church act. 6. 4. eph. 4. 8. 1 cor. 12. 7. ) least we should quench or at least straiten his spirit in prayer , 1 thes . 5. 19. would he then have us limited to other mens forms , which have not beene in like sort sanctified of god , but will rather quench or straiten the spirit of god , whiles we are so limited to them ? 3 the entertainment of this form hath been a manifest snare unto the churches who upon the same ground on which they have received this forme into the desks have beene limited to others in the pulpit , by meanes whereof the poore church of christ hath bin wholly deprived of the publike use of the ministers gifts in prayer , and the spirit of prayer in the ministers in publike , hath beene greatly restrained . as for our judgement concerning the practice of others , who use this liturgie in our native countrie , we have alwayes beene unwilling to expresse our mindes there against unlesse we have been necessarily called thereunto , and at this time we thinke it not expedient to expresse our selves any further concerning this matter , as loath to intermeddle with the affaires of other churches , but contenting our selves with , and blessing the lord for those liberties , which we , by the mercie of god , do here enjoy , reserving also due reverence to the judgements of our beloved brethren and deere countreymen , who may concerning this matter be otherwise minded . reply . this position cannot beare that meaning which you give it , if you take it according , o our mindes , and the plain construction of the words . we never questioned why you made not use of a stinted liturgy , much lesse why you did not wholly and in every part tye your selves unto , and approve of that forme in use amongst us . you might well thinke we had little to doe to put forth such a demand , viz. whether you thinke it lawfull to approve in others and practice your selves , what swerveth from the rule , and we thinke it strange you should give our words such a meaning . the thing we craved resolution in was , whether in your judgements all stinted and set formes of prayer and liturgies be unlawfull . the reason hereof was because in writings from new-england , we had seene all set liturgies , and set formes of prayer condemned as devised worship which god would not accept , and partaking in the sacraments of the supper in our assemblies , therefore disallowed , because administred in a stinted liturgie , which things were received with such likeing among some brethren with us , and by them imparted and recommended to others , that they occasioned that rent and distraction whereof we complain . it is true , the people among us separate from our forme of prayer or liturgy , but the reason hereof is because it is stinted , not because this or that or ours in particular . you confesse you want not some brethren among you who look at all set formes of prayer invented by one of another age or congregation , and prescribed to their brethren , to be read out of a booke for the prayers of the church , as images and imaginations of man forbidden in the second commandement , and that the lawfulnesse of liturgies , and set formes is questioned and doubted of by many faithfull servants of god such also as come over occasionally , who withdraw themselvs from the sacraments in the congregation , doe it on this pretence , that a stinted liturgie is a humane invention . and if we examine the reasons brought against stinted formes and liturgies , we shall finde them to strike at all formes and liturgies though devised by men of the same age and congregation , and to be used but now and then , or but once on set purpose , and that either in publike or in private , as elsewhere we may have occasion to shew . you say it is evident , many preachers constantly use a set forme of prayer of their own making before their sermons , with whom the people refuse not to joyne ; and you know ( we doubt not ) that such set formes are disliked also . and if the grounds be examined ( in our understanding ) they make as much against the one as the other . view but the reasons why you admit not a stinted liturgie and forme of prayer , and see whether the two last will not in the same terms directly conclude gainst both . but what ever is to be thought herein , or whether mens practises agree with their opinions we now dispute not . this is plaine and manifest , that mens opinions are to be judged by their expresse words and reasons , not by their practises . the brownists ( as they are commonly called ) can separate from no stinted liturgie amongst us , but that which is in use , and for ought we know they may joyne with their owne pastors , though they oft use the same forme of prayer in whole or in part , in thanksgiving before meat , or in prayer before sermon , or the like . and yet their opinion is that all stinted liturgies and set formes of prayer be unlawfull , humane inventions forbidden by the second commandement . but if any thing had beene left doubtfull in the letter , that it might be strained to another sence , either because we were short in expression , or many of you not informed in the passages which gave occasion to the question , it is well knowne what the words meane in ordinary construction . and we doubt not but many brethren among you , might and could fully informe you of our meaning that there need no such straining to find it out . that which followeth in your answer to the position ( as you interpret it ) wee passe over , because it is not to the matter intended . and wee are as unwilling to trouble you with the affaires of other churches taking you from your owne weightie occasions , as you are unwilling to be interrupted . onely in regard of promise , and because plaine dealing serves to maintaine love , we thinke good to advertise you these few things . 1 that your reasons why you accept not of a stinted lyturgie be ambiguously propounded , for sometimes you plead onely for your libertie herein , and that a stinted forme is not necessary , and sometime you speake so , as they that looke at stinted lyturgies , as images forbidden in the second commandement will easily draw your words to their meaning . 2 the reasons you bring against a set forme of prayer or liturgie doe hold as strong against a set forme of catechisme confession and profession of faith , blessing , baptizing and singing of psalmes . 3 wee have not called upon you at this time to witnesse for , or against the corruptions in the communion-booke . this you fall upon by straining the sense of our demands contrary to the true meaning thereof . the reasons which you bring against it , we cannot approve them all ; the exceptions which have bin taken both from the matter and manner thereof we know : but to esteeme the whole for some corruptions found therein , a monument of idolatry , that we have not learned . the argument in the abridgement which is used against conformity to the ceremonies did not in their judgement who were authors of the booke hold against the lyturgie , of which opinion we are also . 4 if these reasons be intended onely to shew why you receive not our forme of administration , it is that which ( we are perswaded you know ) we never required of you . if to disallow the use of the booke amongst us altogether in things lawfull , good and pertinent , they will not hold weight . 5 you are generally ( as you say ) loath to meddle with the affaires of other churches , unlesse you have been necessarily called thereunto . but when some upon the request ( as we suppose ) of private friends , and others out of their zeale and forwardnesse have laboured to draw many to separation from the sacrament , because ministred in a stinted lyturgie : wee cannot apprehend any just ground of this apologie . the rent is wide , and some brethren had their hands deepe therein , which made us at this present to crave your judgements , and the reasons thereof to make up the breach . 6 i. d. objecteth to master p. that his manner of preaching was disorderly in carrying that matter , he speakes of , to the classes , before he had declared to the church the equity of his refusing the ministers desired by the scriptures . and may not we with like reason object , that this manner of proceeding is disorderly in seeking to draw men to separation , because of stinted liturgie , before you had shewed to us or other brethren ( whom it may concerne ) by scripture , or reasons drawne from thence , that a stinted liturgie was unlawfull ? but of this wee may intreat more fully elsewhere . ii. position . that it is not lawfull to joyne in prayer , or receive the sacraments where a stinted liturgie is used , or as we conceive your meaning to be in this , as in the former question , viz. where , and when that stinted liturgie is used . answer . it seemeth by this your letter , the ground of this position hath beene the separation of divers from your assemblies , because of a stinted liturgie : and we are not ignorant of the rigid separation of divers people , who withdraw themselves from an able faithfull ministry , as no ministry of christ , and from their godly congregations as no churches of christ ; because of some corruptions from which ( through want of light , not love of the truth ) they are not throughly cleansed . against which practise we have ever witnessed . as for our judgement concerning the position it selfe , we would promise two things ; first concerning the persons reading this liturgie , which may be either an ungodly or unable minister , or an able and a godly . secondly , concerning the liturgie it selfe , which may be either of the whole or some select prayers , which may be conceived to be the least offensive . now if the question be of joyning in prayer with , and when that whole liturgie is used , or where that which is used , is read by an unable and ungodly minister , we then see not how it can be lawfull to joyne in prayer in such cases ; for 1 the prayers of the minister are not his private prayers , but the publike prayers of the whole assembly , whose mouth he is to god. and when the prayers offered up by the minister , as a living holy , and acceptable service to god , are not through humane frailty , but otherwise for matter and manner corrupt , wee see not what warrant any one hath to joyne with such prayers , mal. 1. 13 , 14. 2 when men ioyne therein with an insufficient ministry , they doe not only countenance them in their place and office , whom the lord hath rejected from being his priests . hos . 4. 6. but also set up those idolls and means of worship to edifie themselves by , which god never appointed in his holy word ezeck . 11. 17. but if the question be of joyning in some few select prayers read by an able and painfull minister out of that booke as on the one side wee are very tender of imputing sin to the men that so joyne : so on the other side , we are not without feare , least that such joyning may be found to be unlawfull : unlesse it may appeare that the ministers with whom the people have communion in reading those prayers doe neither give any scandall by reading of them nor give unlawfull honour to a thing abused to idolatry , and superstition , nor doe suffer themselves to be sinfully limited in the reading of them . reply . sufficient hath been spoken of the meaning of the position and the grounds thereof and if we have not mistaken your judgment & practice both , you have born witnesse against both that you call the rigid seperation , and this more moderate also ; and we humbly wish , the moderate doe not degenerate into the rigid ere long . it is very strange , if they take not great incouragement upon your grounds . the truth of our ministery , churches , ordinances , and calling is questioned , and where men will stay the lord knoweth , and what more common then that our liturgie is unlawfull , because it is the devise of man ; the author ( or publisher at least ) of a letter against our service booke beginneth with such like distinction . against this prayer-booke ( saith he ) divers have pleaded in a different manner . first some arguments are proper to the separatists qua tales , viz. that it is offered in a false church ; 2. by a false minister ; 3. in the behalfe of the subjects of the kingdome of antichrist . these are properly theirs , being the grounds whereupon they make a totall separation from all the churches in this land , as no churches of christ . these i approve not , yet note them that yee may see upon what different grounds , the same position is maintained by severall persons , and that yee may be delivered from the prejudice , which hinders many from receiving those truths , because they feare the reproach of brownisme . secondly , there are other grounds which are common to all that plead for the the puritie of christs ordinances , and which doe not necessarily inferre such separation , but only serve to shew the unlawfulnesse of that practise , and our communicating therein . thus the epistle wherein the same distinction of separation is noted : but how truly , let the indifferent judge . if none must be counted separatists , but such as have pleaded against the booke of common prayer as unlawfull , because offered up in a false church , &c. then are there none such in the world , that we have knowne or heard of : for it is apparent they cast us off as no churches of christ , because our service is a humane devise , will-worship , idolatry ; and not on the contrary , that our service is will-worship , or idolatry , because our churches are false churches . against all communion with us they plead , because we are a false church , but against our stinted liturgie they argue not in that manner . the grounds on which that authour builds ( which he saith are common to all , that plead for the purity of gods ordinances ) are one and the same with the grounds of the separatists , shafts taken out of the same quiver and peculiar to them , some few brethren onely excepted , who of late have looked towards that opinion . see how affection will transport . those reasons shall be common to all that plead for the purity of christs ordinances , which were never taken to be sound and true , either by the reformed churches abroad , or by the godly brethren at home , whether now at rest with the lord , or for the present living , or yet by the most of the brethren among whom they live , and with whom they hold societie , or by any minister or societie which did hold the unitie of the spirit in the bond of peace for the space of this 1400 yeares and upwards , by your owne confession , unlesse within these few dayes , and that by a few onely . if this be not to strengthen the hands of the separatists , or at least , to lay blocks of offence in their way , what is ? as yet we thinke most of them that have separated , are not so farre gone , as to condemne all our assemblies as no churches of christ , but we judge they have proceeded further then christ the lord and saviour of his church hath given them commission or allowance , that the grounds whereon they build are unsound , and such as make way for further danger , if the lord prevent not . and that the reasons mentioned in the letters are the proper grounds of separatists , and not common to all them that seeke the purity of religion , for they are not approved by your selves : and if all this tend not to turne them who halt , out of the right way , wee heartily intreate you to consider . your judgement concerning the position , you deliver in three propositions ( for so many they be for substance ) in respect of the persons reading the liturgie , or the thing it selfe that is read . as if any part of the liturgie bee read , ( put case some few selected prayers onely , by an unable and ungodly minister : it is unlawfull ( say you ) for the people to joyne in that case . but if it be unlawfull for the people to joyne , when an ungodly minister readeth some few select prayers , it is either in respect of the minister , or the prayers themselves . not of the prayers themselves , for they be select and choyce , faultlesse both in respect of matter and manner , as it is taken for granted , unlesse this distribution be to no purpose ; if in respect of the minister , then it is not lawfull to joyne with such a one in any ordinance of god whatsoever . for if the minister make it unlawfull , then all communion in any part of gods worship , with such ministers is unlawfull , and so the church in all ages of the world , the prophets , our saviour christ , the apostles , and the faithfull in the primitive churches sinned , in holding communion with such , when the priests were dumbe dogges that could not barke , and greedy dogges that could never have enough ; when the prophets prophefied lies , and the priests bare rule by their meanes ; when the priests bought and sold doves in the temple , and tooke upon them to provide such things for them that were to offer ; when the pharisees corrupted the law by false glosses , taught for doctrines mens precepts , made the commandements of god of none effect through their traditions , under pretence of long prayer devoured widowes houses , taught the law , but practised it not ; when they were such , and did such things , they were ungodly ministers ; but we never find that the prophets , our saviour , the apostles , did either forbeare themselves , or warne the faithfull not to communicate with such in the ordinance of worship . we reade our saviour charged his disciples , to beware of the leaven of the scribes and pharisees , to let them alone , because they were the blind leaders of the blind , but he never forbade to communicate with them in the ordinance of god. it is not then for private christians to withdraw themselves from the ordinance of worship , and communion of the church , because such are permitted to deale in the holy things of god , whom they judge or know unfit : when men joyne in the worship of god with unworthy ministers , they doe not countenance them in their place and office , but obey the commandement of god , who requires their attendance upon his highnesse in that way and meanes . to goe no further then the text you quote , because thou hast despised knowledge , i will also reject thee , &c. properly the text is spoken of the ten tribes called israel , and the priests among them who worshipped the calves which ieroboam had set up , whom the lord threatneth to reject , because they had rejected knowledge being either wilfully ignorant , or withholding the truth in unrighteousnesse . whether they were for the present absolutely rejected , or the lord threatens only to reject them we will not dispute . this may suffice that it is not to be found either in this or any other text of scripture , that the people joyning in the true worship of god , with unworthy ministers , do countenance them in their place thereby . on the contrary , if you will extend this text to all unworthy ministers of what sort soever , whom the word of truth doth condemne as not approved ministers of god , the scripture teacheth evidently not onely that the people by joyning do not countenance them in their place and office , but that they must and ought to joyne with them in the worship of god , and in separating from the ordinance they shall sinne against god , much lesse then do they in such joyning set those idols and meanes of worship , which god never appointed in his word . for the worship is of god , and the ministery is of god , the person unworthily executing his place , is neither set up by some few private christians , nor can by them be removed . and warrant to withdraw themselves from the worship of god , because such as ought not , are suffered to entermeddle in the holy things of god , they have none from god. dumbe dogs , greedy dogs , idol-sheepheards , false prophets , strangers , are unworthy ministers , but they that communicate with such in the ordinance of worship , are never said to set up idols or means of worship which god never appointed . the sheep of christ will not heare strangers in the lords sense , but outwardly they heard those strangers preach ( if the scribes and pharisees were such ) and by hearing them discovered them to be strangers , i. e. false prophets ; some strangers at least , of whom our saviour speaks , were of the true church , and of israel , but brought false doctrine tending to kill the soule , such strangers none should heare , that is , believe and follow : but as they be tolerated in the church , so they may hear them , so long as they bring the truth . unworthy ministers are no ministers for themselves , but they are ministers for the people of god , that is , so long as they be in the place of ministers , the acts of their administrations are of force to the faithfull , if they observe the forme of administration prescribed by christ ; for christs ordinances have their efficacy from him , not from them that serve about them , and evill ministers minister not in their own name , but in christs and by his commission . it hath evermore bin held for a truth in the church of god , that although somtimes the evill have chiefe authority in the ministration of the word and sacraments , yet for as much as they doe not the same in their own name but in christs , and minister by his commission and authority , wee may use their ministery both in hearing the word , and receiving the sacraments ; neither is the effect of christs ordinance taken away , by their wickednesse , nor the grace of gods gifts diminished from such as by faith , and rightly doe receive the sacraments administred to them which are effectuall ; because of christs institution and promise , although they be ministred by evill men . the reasons whereby the ancient churches condemned the donatists and catharists for their voluntary and seditious separation , and the moderne churches condemne the anabaptists for their unwarrantable departure from , and so renting of the body of christ , will hold against separation from the prayers of the congregation , because they are read by an ungodly minister . the second proposition . where the whole liturgie is used , though by an able and godly minister , it is not lawfull to joyne in prayer in that case . herein wee cannot be of your judgement ; for in the times of the prophets , and our saviour christ , as great abuses , no question , were found in the church of the jews in the administration of holy things of god as can be imagined in our liturgie or forme of prayer : but the prophets and our saviour who taught the people to keepe themselves pure and undefiled , never taught them to separate from the administration of the holy things of god. and if the presence at our forms of prayer be not lawful by reason of the corruptions alleaged , there can be no visible society named throughout the world since 200. yeeres after christ or thereabouts , wherein a christian might lawfully joyne in prayer , reading the scripture , hearing the word or participation of the sacraments . for compare the doctrines , prayers , rites at those times in use in the churches with ours , and in all these , ( blessed be the name of the lord ) wee are more pure then they . but no man will be so bold ( we hope ) as to affirme the state of the churches within 200. yeeres after christ , to be so miserably decayed that the faithfull could not without sin hold communion with them in the aforesaid ordinances . the prayers of the minister , whether conceived or stinted in a set forme , be not his private prayers , but the publike prayers of the whole assembly , whose mouth he is to god both in the one and the other . but you will not say , the people ought not to joyne with their pastor in the publique assembly , if ought bee amisse in his prayer for matter , or manner , or both . it is all one to the people in this case , whether the fault be personall ( as some distinguish ) or otherwise knowne beforehand or not knowne : for if simple presence defile , whether it was knowne beforehand or not , all presence is faulty . and if simple presence defile not , our presence is not condemned , by reason of the corruptions knowne , whereof we stand not guilty , whether the corruption , be through humane frailty or not , it is not in us to enquire , but rather whether we be called to come , and the faults such as one christian cannot or must not tolerate in another without breach of charity . for if the errour be such as may be tolerated , and i am called to be present ; by such fault i am not defiled though knowne before . if the error be such as in conscience may not be tolerated , though not knowne before hand , i am bound , if present some way to professe against it . this distinction of personall and ministeriall faults in this case untill it be cleared by some text of scripture or sound reason from the word , must goe for the divise of man. a church , a minister , or a christian may be stiffe in an error ( being misperswaded it is a truth ) after many meanes long used to convince them , with whom yet we must hold communion in the ordinances of religion : and the error may be such as we cannot without hypocrisy or denyall of the truth hold communion , though such meanes of conviction have not gone before . but the corruptions alleadged against our forme of prayer for matter or manner , are such as one christian may and must tolerate in another where he hath no power to redresse them . hath not christian wisdome and experience of humane frailties lessoned you ( deere brethren ) to beare one with another in matters of greater consequence then any have or can be objected truly against the form of prayer in use among us ? and why such corruptions should not be ascribed to humane frailty ; we see not : for if a godly minister make use of a book in things which he judgeth lawfull for matter and manner , the corruption in him that useth it according to his judgement , from what cause can it spring but humane ignorance and frailty ? we rest assured you question not the integrity of many , who make much more use of the booke then onely in a few select prayers . from the bottome of our hearts we desire and pray that god would remove out of his church and worship whatsoever offendeth for matter or manner , and that all things may be so done , not onely that they may be tolerated but that they might be approved in the conscience of all men . but we are perswaded that not onely some few select prayers but many prayers & other exhortations may lawfully be used , with fruit and edification to gods people . to aggravate faults especially when it tends to draw away people from the ordinances of god , is no lesse fault then to excuse them , it may be greater , and therefore we dare not esteeme the prayers read by a godly and faithfull minister according to the booke in use among us , a corrupt sacrifice whether in such as read them , or them that be present . in them that join according to christs command ( and liberty of absence from christ hath not beene shewed ) notwithstanding the corruptions , we hold the prayers to be an holy and acceptable sacrifice to god , and pleasing to jesus christ . the corrupt sacrifice is that , which the deceiver bringeth voluntarily , and out of neglect , having a male in his flock : but the faithfull bringeth himself and his godly desires according to the will of god , and as for corruptions , whether respecting matter or forme , they are none of his , they cleave not to his sacrifice to staine or pollute it . as for the text of the prophet mal. 1. 13 , 14. it is cited by many in this businesse , and to many purposes applyed , but we cannot finde that in the prophet for which it is here brought , the deceiver is accursed that offereth a corrupt thing to the lord. this we reade and beleeve , but that a godly man , being present at this forme of prayer among us , read by a godly and faithfull minister , is the deceiver , who offereth a corrupt thing unto the lord , that is not proved . no argument can be brought from this place to the purpose , but by analogy , which is a kinde of arguing of all other most ready at hand , but lyable to most exceptions , and apt to draw aside , if great care be not had , ( which in this place we finde not ) to take the proportion in every materiall point just and right . and we desire such as alleadge this passage of scripture against simple presence at the prayers of our liturgy , advisedly to consider whether god allow them to make such application of his truth which wee much doubt of , to say no more . your third proposition . that as you are very tender of imputing sinne to those men that joyne in some select prayers read by an able and godly minister : so on the other side you are not without feare , least such joyning may be found unlawfull , unlesse it may appeare that the ministers with whom the people have communion in reading those prayers , neither give any scandall by reading them , nor give unlawfull honour to a thing abused to idolatry and superstition , nor doe suffer themselves to be sinfully limited in the reading of them . 1 we cannot conceive how you should imagine the practice of a godly minister in reading some few select prayers to be scandalous or offensive in their congregations when the people generally , not in their assemblies onely , but throughout the whole land , were perswaded of the lawfulnesse of that course till now of late some have beene drawne away to separate , who yet by warrant of scripture produce nothing of weight to countenance that practice . 2 if the booke should be as you take it an idolathite , latent offence doth not oblige . if any man say unto thee , this is sacrificed to idols , eat it not , so that if it doe not manifestly appeare that this practice is scandalous ; it is not lawfull for the people to withdraw themselves . 3 the book ( we speake of the liturgie so far as it is sound and good ) by your confession is no idolathite , neither was it taken out of the masse-book in such sense as you object , but rather the masse & other idolatrous prayers were added to it , for popery is as a scab or leprosie cleaving to the church ; and many truths belonging to the church as her proper legacie were stolen and heaped together in that denne . and why the true man may not challenge his goods where ever he finds thē , or the thiefe plead title to the true mans goods by prescription , we know not ? it is no hard taske to shew that our service-booke was reformed in most things according to the purest liturgies which were in use in the church long before the masse was heard of in the world . and if that could not be shewed , yet formes of speech generally taken ( we speak not of this or that speciall word or phrase ) is no more defiled by idolatry then the light aire , or place where idolatry is committed . it is not unlawfull to pray , lord helpe , or lord have mercy , or to give thankes , praised bee god , because the papists say , lady helpe , or , praised be god and the virgin mary . fourthly , put case the minister in reading such prayers gives offence , or attributes unlawfull honour to a thing abused to idolatry and superstition , or suffer himself to be sinfully limited in the reading of them , what is that to the faithfull ? this can be no just ground of the people 's not joyning with them in the worship of god , for that offence is personall onely , and not the sin of them that be present , they joyn in prayer onely , and not in his reading or limiting himself . not to say that every particular person must be herein both accuser and judge . if he give offence must they stumble at the stone , and separate from the ordinance of grace ? wee should rather think it is their duty to look unto their feet , that they goe not awry . let it be shewed out of the word of god , that either the minister is guilty of giving unlawfull honour , or that the people may lawfully withdraw themselves in case he should do so , and we will then say as you do , but untill that be proved , ( being pressed and called to proffer our judgements ) we believe that separation is scandalous and sinfull , never taught of god , nor confirmed by the approved example of the godly in any age or time of the church : yea , against the positive law of god , injurious to the churches distracting christians , bringing contempt upon the ordinances of god , and defrauding believers of the spirituall food of their souls , which is indeed to infringe their christian liberty , and what ever may be thought of it now , in former times it hath been accounted no small offence . fistly , if this and such like scruples make it unlawfull to joyn in the ordenance of worship , we must hold communion with no society under heaven . for may not the brethren which hold all stinted , liturgies , and set forms unlawfull say with like strength of reason , it is unlawfull to joyn in conceived prayer with others , if either they give too little honour to it , as deeming the other lawfull , or sinfully limiting , or suffering themselves to be limited to one stinted forme , though conceived at first by them selves ? and may not the brethren who hold a stinted forme lawfull in like manner object ? it is unlawfull to joyn in prayer with them because they attribute too much honour to conceived prayer , as making their device and method the worship of god ? and may not the brethren which hold it lawfull to use some selected prayers according to the forms among us , upon the same grounds condemne communion with both sorts ? and all of them one with another , because they either limit themselves too much , or too little ? you say in the exposition of the first position , many preachers constantly use a set form of prayer of their own making before their sermons , must you not say upon this ground , that it is unlawfull to joyn with them , because they sinfully stint themselves ? in probability a christian may presume , that in the publike worship of god , there will be through humane ignorance & infirmity somwhat amiss for matter , or manner , or both , & that upon this ground , he must joyn with no society in any part of gods worshipat all . the advancing of every small difference to this height , is that which will bring all to confusion , if men walk uniforme to their own principles . it is well observed by master i. da. that unlesse men will yield so much favour each to other in some difference of opinions , a dissolving not onely of churches , but of humane societies also must necessarily follow , & not onely not two ministers , but not two men should live together , which were to put off even humanity it selfe . sixtly , wee have credibly heard that you hold fellowship with professed , rigid separatists without any acknowledgment of their errour , and receive them as members , or communicate with them in the priviledges of the church , though you professe you approve not their opinion or practice . and if in godly wisdome , you can see grounds to joyn with them , we marvell you should be so timorous in this particular . seventhly , if you judge the practice of such godly ministers , scandalous to them that separate from the ordinance , because it is not administred in this , or that , but in a stinted form . it is a scandall taken , and not given ; and by forbearing , if to confirme men in errour , be to scandalize them , they should offend them the more : yea , they should prejudice the truth , and it might be an occasion to beget needlesse scruples in others , and draw them ignorantly from the fellowship of the saints in the holy ordinances of god , and strengthen them who by your owne confession , are run too far into schisme already . iii position . that the children of godly and approved christmas , are not to be baptized untill their parents be set members of some particular congregation iv position . that the parents themselves , though of approved piety , are not to be received to the lords supper , untill they be admitted as set members . answ . these two positions may be maintained with one and the same defence , being somewhat coincident , and therfore we joyn them as if they were but one . therefore to prevent all mistakes , it may please you to take notice that we are not of their judgement who refuse all religious communion with such as are not church members , nor doe wee appropriate communion in this priviledge of the seals only to the members of our own churches , excluding all other churches of christ from the same , though they may be through errour or humane frailty defective in some matters of order , provided that the liberty of our churches be preserved , of receiving such satisfaction as is meet ( as well by letters of recommendation , or otherwise if it be requisite ) concerning those whom wee admit unto fellowship in the seals . for as we account it our duty to keepe the unity of spirit inviolate with any , in whom we discerne any fruits of the spirit , so we hold our selves bound to discharge this duty , according to order . spirituall cōmunion in prayers , holy conferences & other religious actions of like nature we maintain with al godly persons , though they be not in church order : but church communion we hold onely with church members admitting to fellowship of the seals the known and approved , & orderly recommended members of any true church . but into fellowship of the censures , admittance of members and choice of officers , onely the members of that particular church whereof they and we ( any of us ) stand members . these things being premised , the considerations whereupon our judgement and practice is swayed for administration of the seals onely to such as are in order of a true visible church are these that follow . reply . vvhat is here premised to prevent all mistakes , doth seem more to raise then to abate scruples if we mistake not your meaning . you refuse not all religious communion with all that are not church members , and so much they professe , who formerly have gone for , and professed themselves separatists from our assemblies . you do not appropriate this priviledge of the seals onely to the members of your own churches , excluding all other churches of christ from the same ; if your meaning be onely this , that you deny not the sacraments administred in other churches to be the true sacraments of christ for substance , then you ascribe little more to the churches of christ in this , then to the synagogue of satan , the church of rome . for you will not deny baptisme administred among them to be true for substance : if you deny not to have fellowship with them in the seals , and to admit them to the sacrament , and to communicate with them : then either your judgment is contrary to your practice , or you exclude the churches of england from the number of true visible churches of christ , which is to destroy what you formerly builded , and here professe . all possible care to keep the ordinances of god from contempt , we allow and commend , provided you go not beyond the lords warrant , and deny not the priviledges of the church to them , to whom they are due by divine appointment , nor the name and title of church to those societies , which god hath plentifully blessed with means of grace , have received the tables and seals , and have entred into covenant with his highnesse . your liberty to receive such satisfaction as is meet , is not called into question , nor whether you are to keep the bond of the spirit inviolate according to order . but whether this be to keep the bond of the spirit inviolate ( viz ) to exclude from the sacrament true visible believers , or knowne recommended christians , formerly members of visible churches among us ; and their children ; because they are not members ( as you speak ) in church order . and whether god alloweth to put this difference between church mēbers of your societies & other visible believers walking in holines , though not admitted members of any society according to your church order , as to receive the one , though members of another society , unto the seals , and to debar the other and their children . these are the things to be considered in these present positions . and first we will examine your reasons for your judgment and practice by themselves , and then so far as we judge meet , try your answers to the objections you make against it . 1 consideration . the seals baptism & the lords supper are given to the church , as a priviledge peculiar therto in ordinary dispensation . indeed the preaching of the word is not so , being an ordinance given not onely for the edifying of the church already gathered , but also for the gathering of men to the churches that yet are without : wheras the dispensing of the seals is gods ordinance , given onely for the edifying of the church being gathered , and not for the gathering of it : and because there is now , no universall visible church on earth wherein the seals are dispenced , there being no place , nor time , nor officers , nor ordinances appointed in the new testament by christ our lord , for any such assemblies as the iewes had under moses . it remains that the christian churches , whereunto these priviledges were given , are congregationall , consisting onely of so many as may and do meet together ordinarily in one place for the publike worshipping of god , and their own edifying . hence it is that we read so much in the new testament of the churches in the plurall number , the churches of christ , the churches of god , the churches of the saints : and not onely when they were of divers nations , the churches of the gentiles , but also of the same nation , the churches of iudea , and not onely when that country was of large extent and circuit , the churches of asia , but also of a small part of the country . the churches of galatia : yea , when congregations in severall cities are spoken of . they are called churches as the churches of ierusalem , the churches at antioch . to wind up all , seeing the churches in the gospell are congregationall , and that baptisme and the lords supper ( being church priviledges ) belong onely to the churches , it will follow , that as city priviledges belong onely to citizens and their children : so baptisme and the lords supper being church priviledges , belong onely to the members of particular churches , and their seed . and that seeing sigillum sequitur donum , to apply them to others what is it but to abuse them ? as a seal of a corporation is abused if added to confirme the grant of priviledges which are peculiar to any towne corporate to one that being no free-man of that corporation is uncapable thereof . reply . if by the church be understood the society of men , professing the entire faith of christ , the seales are given unto it as a peculiar priviledge ; but if by the church you understand onely a congregationall assembly in church order , the seales were never appropriated to it . but to examine every thing in order as it is propounded . 1 the seales , baptisme , and the lords supper , are given to the church as priviledges peculiar thereunto , not onely in ordinary ( as you say ) but also in extraordinary dispensation . true baptisme is not without the church , but within it ; an ordinance given to it , and they that are baptised , must needes be of a church . the sacraments are the seales of the covenant to the faithfull , which is the forme of the church , and when for substance rightly used , tokens and pledges of our spirituall admittance and entertainment into the lords family , and symbolls or testimonies whereby the people of god are distinguished from all other nations . this is most certain , as in the ordinary ; so in the extraordinary dispensation of the seales , as is confirmed by the texts of scripture alleadged in the margine . for the apostles ( as you say ) dispenced the seales in an extraordinary way , but the seales dispenced by the apostles were seales of the covenant , priviledges peculiar to the church , priviledges of spirituall admittance and entertainment into the lords family . and when you say the dispencing of the seals is an ordinance given onely for the edifying of the church being gathered , and not for the gathering of it , must it not be understood in extraordinary , dispensation as wel as ordinary : to what pupose then are those words ( in ordinary dispensation ) added to the proposition ? if thereby you would intimate that the sacraments be not the peculiar priviledges of the church , and seales of the covenant in extraordinary dispensation , it is evidently crosse to the text you cite , and to your selves afterward . if your meaning be , that in ordinary dispensation the sacraments doe of right belong to them onely , who bee set members of a visible congregation , it is all one with the conclusion , that which is in question and should be proved , and that which this very scripture doth plentifully disprove ; for they that were baptised were not set members of a particular congregationall church whereunto they were baptised , nor in a church way before baptisme ( as is evident and granted by the most of your selves ) but by baptisme solemnly admitted into the church , and then it is not for your purpose , or they were set members ( as some of the brethren seeme to contend in answer to the objection framed against this consideration ) and then the words are more then superfluous . added , they were to prevent the objection which you foresaw might be made from the apostles practice and example but so as they cut asunder the sinews of the consideration it selfe , and make it of no force . for as those beleivers were of the church : so are approved christians and their seed among us : therefore the priviledges of the seales belong unto them . 2 and as the seales : so is the word of salvation preached and received a priviledge of the church . if by the preaching of the word you understand nothing but the tender of salvation or the publishing of the will of god , concerning the salvation of man , whether by private or publike persons ; it is not proper to the church but an ordinance given for the gathering of men to the church , and not only for the edifying of the church . for the apostles first preached to the gentiles when infidels , that they might be converted ; and we doubt not but a minister or private christian comming into a country of infidells , may as occasion is offered , and as they shall be inabled , instruct and perswade them to receive the faith of christ : but if by the preaching of the word be meant the giving of the word to a people , to abide and continue with them , and consequently their receiving of it at least in profession then it is proper to the church of god. the word makes disciples to christ , and the word given to a people is gods covenanting with them , and the peoples receiving this word and professing their faith in god through iesus christ is the taking of god to bee their god. the lawes and statutes which god gave to israell , was the honour and ornament to that nation , and a testimony that god had separated them from all other people , even the gentiles themselves being iudges . the word of reconciliation is sent and given to the world reconciled in iesus christ , and they that receive the doctrine , law , or word of god are the disciples , servants and people of god. in your second consideration you intimate that there is a two fold preaching , the one by office and authority , the other in common charity , or how ever else it may be called . for thus you write . god hath joyned to preach ( viz by office ) and to baptize together , therefore we may not separate them . now to preach unto , that is to instruct or counsell in charity is a duty which may be performed to an infidell , but to preach by office is proper to them that are called to that office : and so to be taught and instructed by officers in the church is proper to the church . to have pastors who shall feed with knowledge and understanding is a gift of matrimoniall love which god vouchsafeth unto his church . the apostles first gathered churches and then ordained elders in everie citie or church ; so that it is proper to the church to be fed and guided by true spirituall pastors who teach and blesse in the name of the lord. and if the word preached and received bee a certaine note of the true church , they that have intyrely received the word of salvation and have pastors godly and faithfull to feede and guide them , they and their seed have right and interest unto the seales in order . moreover the true worship of god is an inseparable and infallible marke of the true church of god , for where christ is , there is his church . this is the prerogative of the church . the prince shall be in the midst of them , and he shall go in when they goe in , &c. and christ saith , where 2. or 3. are met together in my name there am i in the middest among them . and for certain they are gathered in the name of christ that being lawfully called doe assemble to worship god and call upon his name in the mediation of iesus christ . in times past , the church was acknowledged by the feare of god , and entyre service of his majestie , by the professing of the true faith and faithfull calling upon gods name . the signes of apostolike churches are these . the continuance in the apostles doctrine and fellowship , and breaking of bread and prayer . and if faith , true and lively ( though mixed with many doubtings and errors ) make a man a living member of iesus christ , the entyre profession of true faith joyned with holynesse of life in some measure answerable thereunto , makes a man a true member of the visible church . and if the seales belong to the church in right and orderly dispensation , they that joyne together in the true worship of god , according to his will , with godly and faithfull pastors , they have right and title to the sacraments according to divine institution . thirdly , that there is now no visible catholike church in your sense will easily bee granted ▪ i. e. there is no universall society consisting of all such as are accounted or to bee esteemed christians , subjected to one or many vniversall pastors or guides , wherwithall subordinates must communicate in some sacred things which may make them one church and which may and can be performed by that vniversall and head church only . such an vniversall christian church christ never ordained , no not in the dayes of the apostles , to whom all the care of all the churches , was committed . the churches planted by the apostles had all the same substantiall lawes and customes , the same guides and officers for kinde , the same ordinances of worship and meanes of salvation : but one flock or society in the fore mentioned acceptation they were not , because they were but subordinate to one visible head . christ , with which they were to hold union and communion in some worship to be performed by them all jointly assembled at some speciall solemnity , nor subjected to the government of any supreame tribunall constantly to be erected and continued among them . neverthelesse , in some respects of reason , the visible church , may be called the church , sheepfold or flock of christ ; for if the whole society or body mysticall of christ be one , this church militant in like sort is one : the unity of which society consists in that uniformity , which all severall persons thereunto belonging , have by reason of that one lord whose servants they all are , and professe themselves , that one spirit whereby they are animated as the body by one soul ; whereby they believe in christ , and which they acknowledge and professe , that one baptisme inward and outward , whereby they put on christ , and are initiated . this society is one in the inward fruition and enjoying of the benefits of christs death and resurrection , and in outward profession of those things which supernaturally appertain to the very essence of the church , and are necessarily required in every christian , this acceptation of the word is not unusuall in scripture . as god hath set some in the church . his bodies sake which is the church . the church viz. whereof paul was made a minister , and whereunto the rest of the apostles were ordained , which was the catholike visible church , the society of men professing the faith of christ throughout the world , divided into many particular churches whereof some are pure , others impure , some more , others lesse sound . hereunto it may be added , that every multitude and society of believers are indefinitely called the church , i persecuted the church of god. the house of god which is the church of the living god. in which sense all the churches in the world may truly be called one . and thus the apostle peter writing to many dispersed churches , who could not assemble in one place nor be fed by one shepherd , speaketh of them singularly as one flock . feed the flock of god which is among you . but that flock are the strangers dispersed through pontus , galatia , asia , cappadocia , and bythinia , which could not possibly joine together in the ordinances of worship , or make one distinct congregated assembly . and if the catholike militant church be one society ; the seals that are given as a prerogative to the church are given unto it , and the true members of the catholike church have right and title to them in due order , though they be not admitted into the church fellowship you speak of . for as the flock or society is one : so is the ministery , faith , covenant , and sacraments , which are given as a communion prerogative unto the whole church , and not appropriated to this or that part or member , as separated from the whole ; which is further evidenced hereby , that sometime it hath , and too often it may fall out , that a christian may be a true member of the universall visible church ( i. e. he may hold , professe , and maintain that holy catholike faith , pure , and undefiled , without which no man can be saved ) who for the present is no actuall member of any particular or visible society in church order . as for example , a man may be cut off by excommunication , from all commerce with the present visible church wherein hee was bred and born , when hee is not cut off from the catholike , orthodox all church . hee may be deprived of participation of the ordinance in every particular society , when his right and title to them is much better then these who have most injuriously cast him out , or debarred him of the means of salvation . the communion of saints , whether visible or invisible is the effect and property of the church catholike , and agreeth to the severall parts and members thereof , as they be members of that body under the head , and if particular churches have communion together it must of necessity be , that they bee parts and members of the whole body which is one . 4. though there be no universall congregation or assembly nor can be imagined , yet there are and have beene many visible assemblies or societies , true churches of christ , to whom the prerogative of the seals is given , which have not beene united and knit together , in church-order into one congregationall body or society , for every society in covenant with god is the true church of god : for what is it to be the flock , people or sheepe of god , but to be the church of god ? and where there is a covenant , there is the people of god. they that are of the faith of abraham , are the children and seed of abraham , and within the covenant of abraham ( though but two or three ) and so of the same church with him by that covenant . the communication on and accepting of the tables of covenant is an undoubted token of a people in convenant or confederate , but every society professing the true and entire faith , joyning in prayer and thankesgiving , receiving the truth of god to dwell among them , and in some measure conforming themselves to the obedience of gods commandements , is in covenant with god. it is simply necessary to the being of a church that it be laid upon christ the foundation , which being done , the remaining of what is forbidden , or the want of what is commanded , cannot put the society from the title or right of a church . for christ is the foundation and head corner stone of the church , and a people comming unto christ , united unto him , built upon him , having communion with him and growing up in him , are the true church of god : and if the seals be annexed to the covenant by god himselfe , as we cannot deny a people in covenant to be the church , so we must not deny their right and title to the sacraments . if therefore the meaning of the proposition be that the seales be given to the church , that is , to true and sound christians , and people in covenant with god , as a priviledge whether in ordinary or extraordinary dispensation we accept it as good and sound , but it makes against your judgement and practice in keeping away such as have right and title to the ordinances . if you meane the seales are given to the church , that is , onely to set members of some particular society combined by covenant ( as it is among you ) we cannot receive it , because it implieth a distinction not taught in scripture , and crosse to your selves . and for the thing it selfe the scripture hath nothing but many things against it as hath beene shewed . 5 if it be granted that the seales are the prerogative of a particular visible church , known and approved christians among us , and their seed are members of true and visible churches , and so to be esteemed among you before they be entred into church membership as you call it . for every society professing the intire and true faith , and joyning together in the right use of the sacraments in matters substantiall is the true church of god , and every visible beleever receiving the word and professing , the true intire faith , admitted to the right and lawfull participation of the sacraments is a visible member of the true church , if he have neither renounced that society , nor deserved justly to be cast out by excommunication or church censure . for the intire profession of the truth , the dwelling of the truth among men , the right use of the sacraments ( which is ever joyned with truth of doctrine , and to be esteemed by it ) is proper to them that be in covenant with god. and they that truly partake of the seales must needes be of a church , for the seales are not without but within the church an ordinance given unto it , and if they be true members of the true churches of jesus christ , other churches , are bound to hold communion with them in the ordinance of worship as divine providence shall minister occasion . in answer to the ninth position you say the members of other churches , well known and approved by vertue of communion with churches , doe mutually and with good acceptance communicate each of them at others churches , even so often as gods providence leads them thereunto , and themselves desire it . in your preface to this consideration , you say you admit to fellowship of the seales , the known , approved , and orderly recommended members of any true church , and if knowne and approved christians , members of our churches comming over into new england shall desire either to have their children baptized , or to be admitted themselves to the lords supper before they be set members of any society the●e , we desire to know upon what grounds from god you can deny them , if you acknowledge our churches ministery , and sacraments , to be true and of god ( as you professe ) and the members of the church be known and approved , orderly recommended unto you . it is the priviledge of christians baptised themselves , and walking in the faith , that their children should have right to baptisme in all true churches in the world . it is the priviledge of christians lawfully and justly admitted to the lords supper in one visible church , and walking in covenant with god , that they have right to this priviledge in all churches professing their intire faith , and you must shew just and sound reasons from god of your judgement and practice in debarring their seed from baptisme , and parents themselves from the supper , or else ( to use the words of a reverend elder among you , in a case of lesse importance , and not concerning so many ) you will be found guilty of adding to the words , and making eleven commandements , and setting up humane customes , and selfewill against gods appointment . for the sacraments are given to the church as a priviledge peculiar thereunto , but you deny this priviledge to the true visible members of the church , ( as your selves confesse . ) for if the ministers be the ministers of christ , and their congregations the churches of christ , then knowne and approved christians are members of the church . in your opinion the members of the jewish church might be received unto baptisme , upon confession of the christian faith before they were entred into church fellowship , and it is more then strange to us that you should not thinke the true visible members of the churches of christ to have as much title and interest to the seales , as the members of the jewish church to the sacrament of baptisme . 6 the distinct churches mentioned in the new testament , it is not certain that they were congregationall societies consisting onely of so many as might and did meete together ordinarily in one place at one time for the publike worship of god , and their own edification , and if this were granted it would not carry the weight that was laid upon it , but because it may make way for the clearing of some other points pertaining to discipline and church order , we intreat leave to set downe , and desire you to examine what may be objected against it . we will not insist upon this that the least circuite wherein there is mention of churches , is ample enough to containe some diocesses and the least city , populous enough to make many numbersome congregations . nor upon this , that to meete at one time and one place , as one assembly is a thing meerely accidentary to the unity of the church and society ecclesiasticall which is still one , when they are dispersed asunder , and no particular man of that society at first remaining now alive . the number of beleevers was so great in some cities as they could not conveniently meete in one place as one assembly to worship the lord according to his will and for their edifying . that there was a church gathered in the city of samaria by the ministery of phillip will not be denyed , for they received the word and were baptised , but that the church in that city was onely a congregationall assembly is more then can probably be concluded out of scripture . for the whole city or the greatest part could not ordinarily assemble in one place to their edification : but the whole city of samaria , in a manner , ( as it is probable ) imbraced the faith . as the whole city from the least to the greatest had given heede to simon magus before , so to phillip now when he preached christ , and the text saith expresly that samaria received the gospell . the christian church at ierusalem was one and distinct , but it grew and increased first to 3000. then to 5000. afterwards multitudes of men and women were added , and the multitude of disciples increased ; it is also noted that a company of the priests received the faith . the syriacke hath it of the jews , ( scil . ) inhabiting judea , but the greeke , arabian , vulgar , chrisostoms & ethiopians approve the former , and the number of the priests was not small : there is mention also of millions of beleevers . and when all the apostles , or the greatest part of them remained at jerusalem for a time continuing in the ministery of the word and prayer , and that they might doe it the more earnestly and diligently , left the care of the poore to others : how can we thinke but that church did grow exceedingly , and the number of beleevers there to be more then could fitly meete ordinarily in one congregation . without question the number of beleevers in antioch was not small , of which it is said expresly , that a great number beleeved , turned to the lord and that a great multitude was added to the lord by the preaching of barnabas , and that paul and barnabas continued there one whole yeere preaching the word of god , and teaching the multitude , so that the disciples were first called christians at antioch . after that this church was visited by paul and barnabas , who continued there teaching and preaching the word of god with many others also , and may wee not thinke that this church did quickly rise to such bignesse that they could not well assemble in one congregation as now wee call them ? it will easily be credited that the number of believers was not small at ephesus , if we call to minde that when paul had been there but two yeers , all they that dwelt in asia had heard the word of the lord both iews and grecians , that a great doore and effectuall was opened to him at ephesus , that the art for making shrines , and dianaes temple was in danger to be set at nought , and that those that had used curious arts , came and burnt their books in the sight of all men , which could not be done without great danger unto the church , unlesse a great part of the city had believed . where a church did comprehend a city with its suburbs and the country circumjacent , i. e. the believers who professed the faith within that circuit . it might well be that the number did so increase through the extraordinary blessing of god , which accompanied the preaching of the word in those primitive times , and first planting of the heavenly kingdome , that they could not well meet ordinarily in one place , and yet continued one society . for when a number is gathered in small villages , or some added to the number already gatherd , it is not meet they should be neglected because small , nor divided from the body , because the number not competent to make an intire and perfect body of it selfe . the increase of the churches doth require an increase of elders , and ( if they grow to bignesse more then ordinary ) an increase of places for their assembling , when the essence of the visible church is not changed , nor one multiplied or divided into many . and it is more available for the good of the church , and further removed from all ambition , if the society shall assemble occasionally in divers places as parts and members of the body , then to constitute a distinct free society consisting of a few believers , not fit to make up an intire body contrary to the precedent examples of the apostles . in times of grievous and hot persecution the churches of god could not assemble in any great number in publick places , but have been compelled to meet in woods , caves , dens , and dark corners , as the lord hath offered opportunity , one and the same society in sundry places : so that either it is not essential to the church to meet together in one place ordinarily , or their society is broken off by persecution , when their meeting together in one place is interrupted . it is said by some where the church grew greater , sometimes by the suddain and extraordinary conversion of more then could well so assemble , then was there presently a dispersion of the former , and a multiplication of more particular assemblies . but in the scriptures quoted no such thing doth appeare , but rather the contrary as hath been proved . in aftertimes when the church was within the cities as of rome , ephesus , alexandria , carthage , ierusalem , &c. the number of believers did greatly exceed the bignesse of a convenient and fitting assembly which might ordinarily congregate in the place to worship god according to his appointment when the church was but one . seventhly . seeing them both the seals in ordinary and in extraordinary dispensation belong to the church , id est , to the faithfull , and repentant , taught made disciples , who have received the word , believe , and professe the faith , have received the holy ghost , and walke in obedience , who are members of other visible churches , or to be made members of a visible church for the time being , by admittance unto the sacraments , and not unto set members of congregationall assemblies only . and seeing the godly and faithful ministers among us are the true ministers of christ , and their godly congregations , true churches , and knowne , and approved christians , true members of visible churches formerly baptized , and admitted to the lords supper . this consideration is of no weight to justifie your opinion and practice in debarring known and approved christians , professing the faith , members of the true visible churches amongst us from the lords supper , or their seed from baptisme , because they be not yet received as set members of some particular cōgregation amongst you : and if such believers are not to be received to the seals , we desire you to consider if ever the sacraments of the new testament , were rightly dispensed in the church of the new testament from the first plantation thereof unto this day . the seale doth follow the grant , and as the seale is prophaned , if it be put to a false grant or charter , so are the faithfull wronged if the seale in a lawfull way desired , be denied to them that have received the grant , i. e. have right unto jesus christ , and communion with him . but the faithfull who have received the word with gladnesse , believe , and professe , be members knowne and approved by other visible churches , or such as desire to be admitted members of that visible society for the time by communicating in the ordinance , are already partakers of the grant or charter , have right and interest in christ , may lawfully desire the seals , and may be admitted as members for the time being of that particular society . therefore to debar such , from the lords supper , and their seed from baptisme , is against the law of nature , and the positive law of god , an injury to the faithfull and their seed , a wrong to the catholike visible church , that particular society , and the pastors themselves that so debar them . they sinned grievously who deferred baptisme to the end of their life , and the negligence of pastors and teachers who did not instruct the ignorant and reprove the superstitious , was great . and is not the severity in debarring such as crave and desire to be admitted to the seals an injury to be reprehended ? answ . 2 confider the ordinary administration of the seales is limited to the ministery and the ministery to a particular church ; therefore the seals also must necessarily be proper to the church and to the members thereof . 1 that the administration of the seales is limited to their ministery is evident from the first institution math. 28. 19. where god hath joyned ( to preach ) viz. by office , and ( to baptize ) together , therefore wee may not separate them . for howsoever : any man may by the appointment of the lord and master of the family , signifie his minde and deliver his message from him to the family , yet the dispensing of a fitt portion of food to everie one of the houshold is a branch of the stewards office . indeed the keies are given to the whole church yet the exercise and dispensation of them in this as well as in other particulars is concredited to the ministers who are called to bee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 1 cor. 4. 1. and no church office can be orderly performed by any , but one that is called therunto nor will god vouchsafe his presence , and blessing ( wherupon all spirituall efficacy depends ) in an ordinance dispensed , but when it is dispensed by those whom he hath ordayned and appointed thereunto . 2 that the ministery is limited to the church appeares as from evident texts of scripture : so also upon this ground . 1 the office is founded in the relation betweene the church and the officer , wherfore take away the relation , and the office and the worke ceaseth . for where he hath not power , he may not doe an act of power , and he hath not powerwhere he hath not a relation by office . herein the proportion holdeth between an officer of a towne corporate , and of a church that as the power of the former is only within his owne corporation : so the power of the latter is confined to his owne congregation . reply . the proposition is granted that the dispensation of the sacraments in the new testament both ordinary and extraordinary is limited to the ministery . but in that you alleadge for confirmation , somethings may be noted . 1 the first institution of baptisme is not contained in that passage math. 28. 19. but confirmed ; for the seales of the new testament were instituted by christ before his death , and his disciples had baptized many which they could not doe before the institution of the sacrament . secondly we see not how you can apply that text to preaching by office , which according to our exposition must bee a dispensing of a fit portion of food to everie one of the houshould . for it is plaine the apostles were sent forth to preach to everie creature or unto the world , to convert men unto god , to make them disciples and not to preach unto disciples only , or members of the houshold . the apostles certainly had authority , and preached by authority , but they preached not to infidells and heathens , as to disciples or members of the church , much lesse did they give a portion to them as to the houshold which is the preaching by office , which you acknowledge . thirdly if under the power of the keyes you comprehend preaching by office , dispensing the seales , casting out , and receiving againe into the bosome of the church wee deny the power of the keyes to belong to the church or community of the faithfull : we cannot find in scripture that christ ever granted such power to the faithfull , as faithfull joyned together in covenant in those passages which speake of this power , the execution of this authority is given to them to whom the authoritie is committed . if the power of the keyes be given to the whole church the apostles themselves must derive their authoritie immediatly from the church , and not from christ , for the power must be derived from them , unto whom it was give ; but their power , and authority was not from the church ; but from christ immediatly . and if the dispensation , and exercise of the keyes , be concredited to the ministers ; doth it hold in all things or onely in the dispensation of the sacraments , and preaching by office ? doe they dispense the seales as the stewards of christ , from whom they receive their authority immediately or as the servants of the church , from which they derive their authority ? if in the first sense ; the power of the keys is not in the community of the faithfull . if in the second , the office of a minister is not the immediate gift of christ , nor the minister , so much the servant of christ , as of the church , from whom he must receive lawes , in whose name he must doe his office , and to whom he must give an account . we could wish you had explained in what sense , you hold the dispensation , and execution of the power of the keyes is concredited to the ministers , and by whom . for if the community of the faithfull have to doe in all matters concerning the body , to admit members , and cast them out , to make and depose ministers , to bind and loose by authority derived from christ , wee cannot see how in your judgement the dispensation , and execution of the power of the keyes is concredited to the ministers . fourthly that which you add , that god will not vouchsafe his presence and blessing to an ordinance but when it is dispenced by those , whom hee hath ordayned and appointed thereunto , must bee warily understood , or it may occasion errors and distractions not a few , you know what corruptions soone entred into the church of god , both in respect of doctrine , worship , offices , and entrance thereunto , and how ready and apt is the conclusion from your words , that christ hath not vouchsafed his presence , and blessing in his ordinances to his church ? but of this before . and on the contrary , seeing god hath vouchsafed his blessing in his ordinances dispensed by your selves , when you stood as visible ministers in the congregation , and churches of old england , you must confesse , did approve both your standings and his ordinances dispensed by you . secondly , as for the assumption , that pastors and teachers are limited to a particular charge or society ; but that flock is not ever one congregationall assembly meeting in one place , neither the band so streight , whereby they are tied to that one society , that they may not upon occasion performe some ministeriall act or office in another congregation , or to them that be not set members of their proper assembly . for first to dispence the seals of the covenant is a ministeriall act , an act of office , and not an exercise of gifts onely : but the pastors of one assembly may dispence the sacrament to the set members of another society upon occasion , as you confesse in this and in your answer to the ninth position . and if the members of one church may lawfully upon occasion receive the sacrament of the supper in another society from the pastor thereof , then may the pastor of one congregation performe a ministeriall act to the members of another , and if to the members of another then in another congregation with consent , and upon occasion . secondly , as the ministers are exhorted to feed their flock : so is every christian and minister to try and examine himselfe whether hee be in the faith , but you will not allow this conclusion . i must examine my self . ergo , no man is debarred from the sacrament for his unworthinesse , or to be tried or examined by others , to be observed , admonished , and brought to repentance for notorious sin . no more can it be rightly gathered from the former passages of scripture , that the minister is not upon occasion to performe any ministeriall act to any other people or society , because ordinarily he is to attend his own flock . thirdly , as the ministers have peculiar relation to their particular flocks , so the people unto their particular ministers , unto whom they are tied in speciall manner , as to their overseers , who must give account for theirsouls . and if this peculiar relation betwixt the people & the minister doth not hinder the people from receiving the lords supper at the hands of another minister ; nor the minister from performing the ministeriall act to the members of another congregation . neither doth his peculiar relation to his own flock hinder him , from administring unto others upon just occasion being intreated thereunto . as the combining of the people to their peculiar minister , doth not quite cut off their communion with other ministers : so neither doth the restraining of a minister to a peculiar flock quite cut him off from administring upon occasion : unto another people . paul appointeth the ephesian elders unto the care & charg onely of their own particular flock , but so to attend them ordinarily according to the rules of the scripture ; that as occasion was offered , might performe some ministeriall acts in another congregation . the taking heed unto their flocks which paul requires in this place doth cōprehend under it the administration of the word , prayer , and sacrament , and if it must be restrained to their owne particular churches onely , it is unlawfull for a pastor to preach or call upon the name of god in any publike assembly save his own , upon any occasion , as these be duties prtaining to common confession or profession of faith . ordinary pastors and teachers it is true , are not apostles , who are to go from place to place , from country to country , to plant and erect churches , but they are tied ordinarily to one flock , as the text proveth , and to which purpose it is commonly cited . but that a pastor is so tied to his flock , that he can perform no ministeriall act to any other upon any occasion that it proveth not , nor can we find that it was ever so understood by divines ancient or modern . w. b. telleth us , the learned bring these allegations to this purpose . but the authour in alledging the consent of the learned was very carelesse or much abused , for there is not one that speaketh to the purpose . i. d. disclaimeth that position ; and for the rest it is a matter notorious , they were never thought to be of that opinion ; and wee doubt not if any could be named to free this allegation from suspition of novelty , you would have cited one or more as you have done in that which followeth . feed the flock of god ( saith peter . ) but he speaks of all those dispersed churches to whom he writes , which he calls a chosen generation , a royall priesthood ▪ a peculiar people : and in some respect of reason , under which we may apprehend them , are one flock , but not really as combined under the same pastor , or meeting in one place . and as these dispersed believers , or societies make one flock : so the ministers attending their flocks or societies , and the ministery exercised by them is , or maketh one . 4 a minister chosen and set over one society , is to looke unto his people committed to his charge , and feed the flock over which the lord hath made him overseer , but he is a minister in the church universall , for as the church is one , so is the ministery one , of which every minister ( sound or orthodox ) doth hold his part , and though he be minister over that flock onely which he is to attend , yet he is a minister in the universal church . the functiō or power of exercising that function in the abstract , must be distinguished from the power of exercising it , concretely , according to the divers circumstances of places . the first belongeth to a minister every where in the church , the latter is proper to the place and people where he doth minister . the lawfull use of his power is limited to that congregation ordinarily . the power it self is not so limited and bounded . in ordination , presbyters are not restrained to one or other certaine place , as if they were to be deemed ministers there onely , though they be set over a certain people . and as the faithfull in respect of a community betwixt them , must and ought to performe the offices of love one to another , though of different societies , so the ministers in respect of their communion , must and ought upon occasion to performe ministeriall offices towards the faithfull of distinct societies . 5 if this be not so , what shall become of the poore flock when the pastor is driven away by personall persecution , so that he cannot , if others may not afford them helpe and succour : what when the congregation it selfe is dispersed , must no sheepherd receive them into fold , when they are driven from their own , or neglected by him ? 6 if the pastor may be absent from his flock upon necessary , just , and weighty occasion , respecting his own good , the good of that society , or the common good of churches consociate , then may the pastor , the soaiety , the churches procure some man to supply the defect , and doe the office of a pastor , preach the word , pray , and as occasion is offered , administer the sacrament in that congregation unto that assembly untill their sheepheard shall returne . shall the people be left as sheepe without a sheepheard ; because for the good of the churches their owne sheepheard is called from them for a time , that he might returne with greater joy and comfort ? the pastor is appointed to feed his own flock , and yet for the good of the whole church he may be called to leave , if not the care , yet the over-sight of his flock fot a while ; and by the same reason a pastor of another flock or congregation may performe the office , and doe the acts of a minister in his congregation during absence : yea if for the good of the churches he be called away , doe not the churches stand obliged in conscience to provide that the flock sustain to hurt by his absence which possibly yee cannot doe if one minister may not performe a ministeriall act in another congregation . 7 if the prophets of one church may prophesy in another , and apply their doctrines , exhortations and prayers to any of the occasions of the churches where they speake , whereof they are not set members , what hinders why the pastor of one congregation , may not preach and pray , administer the sacraments in another ? the pastor of one congregation is appointed to his peculiar charge , but he is a minister in the universall church , as well as the prophets of one church may bee called prophets of the universall church by vertue of that communion which all true churches have one with another . without consent the prophet may not prophesie by exhortation , and with consent the pastor may administer the sacraments . 8 in the primitive churches when elders were ordained in every city , they were not onely to looke to their flock but indeavour the conversion of poore infidels among whom they lived , and the inlargement of christs kingdome , for the worke of the lord must be done in its season , and then was the time of the calling of the gentiles : it was not their office proper and essentiall to travail from countrey to countrey as did the apostles , nor were they pastors of the infidels , but by private instruction and publique teaching ( if any of them would bee penitent ) they were to labour the comming of them to god. and these infidels converted to the faith were to be baptised of the elders ordinarily in those cities , though the number might bee so great as they could not well meete in one congregation , nor be subject to the same pastor ; for either they must bee baptized by the pastors among whom they lived , ( being converted to the faith ) or continue unbaptized untill they were a number convenient to make a distinct society , or grow together into one body , and to elect and choose their own minister by whom they may be baptised : but that either they must stay so long without baptisme , or that a society of unbaptised men had power in those times to elect and choose their minister , by whom they should be baptised is contary to all presidents in scripture . 9 and so if a pastor may not performe a ministeriall act to any other person or people but his own flock onely , then a company newly converted from infidelity , which cannot joyne themselves as set members to another assembly , must remain unbaptised till they have chosen their minister to doe that office . then must the people thus converted want officers til there be among themselves able men to pray , preach , exhort in the congregation at the ordination of their minister , or ( if that may bee omitted ) till there be fit men among them to examine the fitnesse of him that is chosen . 10 if subtile heretikes arise , and seduce , and draw away many from the faith , and the body of the society be not able to convince them , either they must be let alone or cast out without conviction , for neighbouring ministers stand in peculiar relation to their flocks onely , and must not meddle beyond their calling according to your tenent . 11 there is no precept or example in scripture more to warrant the admitting of a set member of one congregation unto the supper in another , or the baptising of his child , occasionally in another assembly then there is for receiving of knowne and approved christians , and their seede that are not set members . the pastor is no more the pastor of the one then of the other , nor the one more of his flock then the other , neither of them set members , and both sorts may be members for the time being , and they most properly who are of longest abode among them . but as we heare it is frequent among you ( as at dorchester , &c. ) to baptise the children of another assembly , and usually you admit to the supper of the lord , members of other churches , and therefore the minister is not so limited to his particular church or flock but he may dispence the seales to others , which in this consideration is denyed . 12 if the want of one officer in a congregation for a time , may be supplyed by another , as the want of the doctor , ruling elder , or deacon , by the pastor ; why may not the defects of some congregation or christians be supplyed by pastors or ministers of another congregation , when they are requested and desired ? the minde herein is godly , and the means lawfull , and well pleasing unto god. 13 and if a synod consisting of sundry members of particular churches , met together in the name of christ about the common and publike affaires of the churches shall joyn together in prayer and communion of the supper , wee can see no ground to question it as unlawfull , although that assembly be no particular congregation or church , hath no pastor over them , make not one ecclesiasticall body as a particular congregationall church , unlesse it be for the time onely . the minister therefore may do an act of office to them that be not set members of his flock as he may stand in relation to them for the time . 14 your comparison betwixt an officer of a town corporate , and of a particular congregation is not alike , unlesse you will say that a member of another corporation occasionally comming into the towne , is thereby a member of that society , and subject to the authority of the officer . for so you professe that the members of one society may occasionally communicate with another , and so be subject to the pastor for the time being , which if you grant , it overthrows the whole strength of this consideration . howsoever the comparison it selfe is very perilous if it be pressed . for if the officer of a town corporate , presume to doe an act of power out of his owne corporation , it is a meer nullity , but if a minister of the gospell dispence the sacrament of baptisme , or the lords supper to believers of another society ( though done without consent ) it was never deemed or judged a nullity in the church of god. let the comparison hold good , and most christians have cause to question whether they be truly baptized , or ever lawfully received the sacrament of the lords supper . if it may not be doubted , whether ever the sacraments of the new testament were truly or by authority dispenced , especially if we consider what follows in the other considerations . this argument from comparison is very usuall in the writings of brethren against communion with our churches , but for the most part greatly mistaken , to say no more . answer 3 consideration . circumcision and the passoever were to be administred onely to the members of the church . ergo , baptisme and the lords supper is so to be administred also . the consequence is made good by the parity of these ordinances . for if the argument hold strong for the proofe of paedo-baptisme which is taken from the circumcision of infants , why may we not as well infer a necessity of church membership to baptisme , from the necessity of it to circumcision . and that circumcision was peculiar to the church members of the church , may appeare in that persons circumcised , & onely they , might eat the passeover , and they onely might enter into the temple , which were the priviledges of church members . in our answer to the second objection against the first consideration we have shewed that circumcision was not administred to all that were under the covenant of grace ( which all believers were ) but onely such of them as joyned themselves to the church , at first in abrahams family , whereunto baptisme doth so far answer that the apostle counteth these expresse equivalent to be circumcised in christ with circumcision made without hands , and to be buried with christ in baptisme . indeed , in somethings they differ as onely the males were circumcised , whereas with us females are also baptized . the reason is because god hath limited circumcision to the males , but under the gospel , that difference is taken away . againe , circumcision was administred in the private family ; but baptisme , onely in the publick assemblies of the church . the reason of this difference is , because they were bound to circumcise the males on the eighth day , but that could not stand with going to the temple which was too far off , for the purpose , to bring every child thither from all parts of judaea to be circumcised the eighth day . nor had they alway opportunity of a solemne convention in the synagogue on every eighth day ; when some child or other might be to be circumcised . but there is no precise day set downe for baptisme , nor are opportunities of publick assemblies so remote where churches are kept in a congregationall frame , but that every first day of the week baptisme may be administred if it be required . again , for the aforesaid reason , circumcision required not a peculiar minister ( for ought we finde in scripture ) but it is not so in baptisme , as was shewd in the second consideration . but no good reason can be given , why , in this they should not both agree viz. that they are both to be dispensed onely to members of the visible church , as it hath been proved in the first consideration . reply . this whole reason as it is propounded makes onely against it selfe ; who ever thought that the seals of the covenant were not proper to confederates or the church of god ? but of old all visible believers under the covenant of grace , walking in holinesse , were of the visible church , and in church order according to the dispensation of those times , though not joyned in externall society with the family of abraham . and to exclude melchisedeck or iob , because they were no members of the visible church , when yet they were visible believers under the covenant of grace , and in church order as those times required , is well-nigh a contradiction , and so it is to debar known and approved christians members of our congregation , and their seed from the seals , because they be not of the visible church , for they are members of the church , and so to bee held and esteemed all true churches and members of the church , the true & proper meaning of this consideration , is that as circumcision and the passeover were not to be dispensed to all visible believers under the covenant of grace , but onely to such as were joyned to abrahams family , or to the people of the god of abraham , no more may baptisme and the lords supper be administred to any believers now , unlesse they be joyned to some particular congregation in church membership , or unlesse by solemne covenant , they be set members of some particular assemblies . the strength of this consideration stands in the parity which is betwixt the sacraments of the old and new testament , circumcision and baptisme , for parum par est ratio , but this parity is not found in every thing ( as is manifest by the particulars alleadged in the consideration it self . ) and wee must justly require some reason to prove them like in that particular , but to unfold it more fully , we will consider three things . first , how far an argument may be drawn soundly from one sacrament to another , or wherein the sacraments agree , and wherein they differ . secondly , what wee are to think of the proposition it self . thirdly , whether the reason of circumcision and baptisme be one in that particular . first the sacraments of the old testament and the new agree in their common author , nature and end , and therfore what is spoken of one in respect of the common author , nature and end that doth hold true of everie one . if circumcision be of divine institution a seale of the righteousnesse of faith , and of the covenant of grace , a sacrament in generall is an ordinance divine , a seale of the covenant proper and peculiar to them that bee confederates . but what is peculiar to one sacrament that agreeth not to another . what is proper to the sacraments of the old testament , in respect of the manner of dispensation that agreeth not to the new , as if the sacraments of the old testament be with bloud , obscure in signification , painfull for use , peculiar to one nation , and to bee abolished , the sacraments of the new testament must be without bloud , cleere for signification , easie for use , universall to all nations , and perpetuall to continue in the church for ever . circumcision and baptisme are both sacraments of divine institution , and so they agree in the substance of the things signified , the persons to whom they are to bee administred , and the order of administration , if the right proportion bee observed . as circumcision sealed the entrance into the covenant the righteousnesse of faith , and circumcision of the heart : so doth baptisme much more clearly : as abraham and his houshold , and the infants of beleiving iews were to be circumcised , so the faithful , their families , and their seed are to bee baptized . none must eate the passeover who was not circumcised , women excepted , who were circumcised in the males . nor may a man unbaptized be admitted to the lords supper . circumcision was but once applied by gods appointment and the same holds in baptisme according to the will and good pleasure of god : but circumcision and baptisme agree not in their speciall forme , and manner of dispensation appointed of god. and in these things a reason cannot be drawn from the one to the other affirmatively . the males onely were to be circumcised as only capable of that signe : but males and semales both ought to be baptized . the infants males were to be circumcised the eighth day because seaven dayes they were legally uncleane . but the seed of the faithfull are not to bee reputed uncleane . ergo , no set tyme is appointed for baptisme . circumcision as other ceremonies did distinguish the iewes from the gentiles ; but christ now of two hath made one . circumcision signified christ to come , baptisme is the seale of the new covenant made in christ already come . and so in the degree of grace given , some difference may be put : the other differences alleadged in the considerations with the reasons thereof are not so cleere and undoubted : for baptisme is not tyed to the first day of the weeke : and the jewes might gather an assembly on the eighth day as occasion required and it might be appropriated to the priests and levites though done in private : but in whatsoever they agree or differ we must looke to the institution and neither stretch it wider , nor draw it narrower then the lord hath made it . for hee is the institutor of the sacraments according to his owne good pleasure . and it is our part to learne of him , both to whom , how , and for what end the sacraments are to be administred , how they agree , and wherein they differ . in all which we must affirme nothing but what god hath taught us , and as he hath taught us . secondly , as for the proposition it selfe ; certaine it is , circumcision and the passeover were to be administred onely to the visible members of the church , e. to men in covenant , professing the true faith ; but that in abrahams time none were visible members of the church , which joyned not themselves in church orders to the family of abraham , wee have not learned . in the first institution of circumcision , we find that god gave it to abraham , as the seale of the covenant formerly made with him : but of any church covenant or order whereunto abrahams family should enter before circumcision we read not . melchizedeck , lot , iob , &c. were not onely visible beleevers under the covenant of grace , but visible members of the church , according to the order and dispensation of those times . wee read not ( you say ) that melchizedeck , lot or iob were circumcised , but that is no good reason to inferre negatively that they were not circumcised . we read not that iohn the baptist , or the apostles , or the 500. brethren were baptized , wee must not forthwith conclude , that they were not initiated by that seale . moreover , if they were not circumcised , it may bee the institution of that sacrament was not knowne unto them , or the authour of circumcision ( upon whose will and pleasure they must depend ) did not command it unto them , or require that they should joyne themselves in covenant with abrahams family : and in that case if they had circumcised themselves they had transgressed . but then the reason why they were not circumcised was not this , that they were not ( as you speake ) in church order : but because circumcision was appropriated to abrahams family by divine institution in some speciall and peculiar respects belonging to the manner of administration . after the church of the jewes was constituted ( when wee can no more imagine that there was a church among the gentiles , then that there are christians among the barbarians at this day ) we finde none must be admitted to the passeover that was not first circumcised , but nothing was required of a stranger to circumcision , but that he professe the true faith , and avouch the god of abraham to be his god , which of necessitie must be done before he could be reputed a visible beleever , or under the covenant of promise . thus a learned and reverend divine , circumcision was a seale of the covenant , that god made with abraham concerning christ that should come as concerning the flesh of isaac and so of iacob of whom were the 12 tribes who were the israelites , &c. rom. 9. 4. 5. so that as in abrahams time none were bound to be circumcised but those that were of his family as being borne there or bought , and so brought thither which were not of his seed : so afterwards none were bound to be circumcised which were not borne in the family of jacob and patriarchs , or joyned to them . and after their comming out of egypt none were bound to be circumcised but the children of the iewes ( then the only church of god , ) and those that desired to joyne unto them . the summe is thus much , god gave circumcision to abraham as a seale of the covenant but whether it was given to other beleevers in his time it is ( at least ) a thing uncertaine . and if they were not circumcised it was by reason of the speciall institution of god , and peculiar manner of administration of the covenant of promise which in some respect was proper , to the family of abraham , and not common to all the visible members of the church at that time in church fellowship and order . afterwards when there were none in covenant but the seed of iacob or strangers professing the faith of abraham , circumcision was not to be administred to any man who was not in covenant nor any man to bee admitted to the passeover who was not circumcised . this is the most that can be said with any probability : but hence it will not follow by iust analogie or proportion , that the seed of the faithfull must not bee admitted to baptisme , or visible believers be received to the lords supper unlesse they bee set members of some particular congregation united in church order . thirdly , presupposing therefore that melchizedeck , lot and iob , were not circumcised , we say there is not the like reason of circumcision and baptisme in this particular . for , first if circumcision was ever appropriated to the family of abraham , and might be communicated to other visible beleevers , it was in the first institution and administration ; but in the first institution and administration of baptisme , it was not observed that beleevers should be first gathered into a politicall body or christian church membership , and then baptized . iohn the baptist baptized such as came to him confessing their sins . the apostles baptized disciples , such as gladly received their doctrine , beleeved in jesus christ , and received the gifts of the holy ghost , before they were gathered into christian church order , or made fit members of a christian congregationall assembly . 2 if circumcision was by speciall institution given as a priviledge to the males of abrahams familie , melchizedecke , iob , lot , and other visible beleevers were not bound to joyne themselves as members to abrahams familie , or desire and seek to be circumcised : but they that have received the doctrine of salvation , beleeve christ , and professe the faith , are bound to seek , and desire the priviledge of the seals in an holy manner . 3. melchizedech , job , and lot were not onely visible beleevers , but visible members of the church , according to the manner of dispensing in those times : but the seals ( as you confesse ) belong to all beleevers knit together in church-covenant . 4. if circumcision be appropriated to the family of abraham , it is because the covenant sealed by circumcision is peculiar to abrahams posteritie , ( sc . ) that christ should come as concerning the flesh , of isaac . but baptisme is the seal of the covenant of grace without any peculiar or speciall tye or respect . 5. you contend , that baptisme did belong to such beleevers as were members of the then jewish church , which cannot stand , if abrahams familie did answer to a christian societie or congregationall assembly ; just reason therefore may be given why circumcision was dispensed onely to the males of abrahams familie , when baptisme is not to be limited onely to the set members of a particular societie ; and if this consideration be applied to the purpose , instead of saying , circumcision and the passeover were to be administred onely to the members of the church , you must say circumcision was to be desired of or administred unto all the true approved visible members of the church . and if there be the same reason of both , then all visible approved members of the church must not desire nor be admitted to the seals , but this conclusion you will not acknowledge . answ . 4. consideration . they that are not capable of the church censures , are not capable of the church priviledges : but they that are not within church-covenant are not capable of church censures . ergo. the proposition is evident , the assumption may be proved , 1 corinth . 5. 12. what have i to do to judge them that are without . now to be without is not onely the case of heathens and excommunicates , but of some beleevers also , who though by externall union with christ they are within the covenant of grace , yet being not joyned externally to the visible bodie of christ ( a particular church ) are in regard of visible church communion said to be without . to this purpose is this text alledged by other divines also , as dr. ames cas . of consci . l. 4. c. 24. q. 1. resp . 5. reply . first , men are capable of church censures in two respects , either in having the power of the keyes , and authoritie to dispense them according to god , or as subject to the censures of the church . in the first sense , many are capable of church priviledges that are not capable of church censures , as the seed of christian parents , children and women . you say you admit to the seales the knowne and approved , and orderly recommended members of any true church : but to fellowship in the censures , admittance of members , and choice of officers onely , the members of that particular church whereof they and we ( any of us ) stand members . in the second sense also many are capable of church priviledges who are not subject to church censures : as the children of christian parents are capable of baptisme , the known and approved members of any true church are capable of the seales in other congregations among you who are not subject to the censures of that other society . spirituall communion in publick prayer is a church priviledge , which is not denied to visible beleevers and godly persons , though not in church order , and so not in subjection in your sense to church censures . secondly , a person baptised is not baptised in that particular congregation onely , but into all churches , and every particular church where he cometh he hath all the priviledges of a baptised person in respect of his baptisme , and is so to be esteemed by them . now the priviledge of a baptised person who is able to examine himself , and walketh in the truth , is to be admitted to the lords supper . all circumcised persons had right thereby to eat the passeover in any societie , in the place which god should chuse to put his name there . exod. 12. 4. 47. deut. 16. 1 , 2. so all baptised persons have true and intire right to the lords supper in everie true church where god hath set his name . thirdly , there is not the same reason of every church priviledge , for one may have right to some , who is not to meddle with others . the members of one society may hear the word , joyne in prayer , and receive the sacraments in another , when they are not to meddle in the election and ordination of their teachers . the ministers of the gospel may preach the word , and administer the sacraments in another congregation , and hereto he needs no other calling but that god offers an opportunitie ; there is much need of his help , and he is intreated , or hath leave from them in place or office ; but he is not to admit members into the societie , or cast them out that be admitted . and if the pastor of one church shall preach or administer the sacraments in another , contrary to the liking and approbation of the society and governours , though the act be irregular , it was never esteemed a nullitie ; but if he shall presume to excommunicate the members of another societie , without the consent or the church , and approbation of pastors and teachers , under whose charge and jurisdiction they live , it hath been judged a meer nullity . therefore the proposition is not so evident as to be taken without proofe , that they have no power to admit a beleever into communion in any church priviledge who have no power to excommunicate . fourthly , that visible beleevers baptised into a true church professing the true faith , and walking in holy obedience , and godly conversation , that they and their seed should be judged such as are without in the aposles sense , because they be not externally joyned as set members to some particular congregation in church-covenant is affirmed , not proved . 1. it hath , and may fall out many times through the ignorance , rashnesse , or pride of a prevailing faction in the church , that the true members of the catholique church , and the best members of the orthodox visible flock , or congregation of christ may be no members of any distinct visible societie . and shall their posteritie be esteemed aliens and strangers from the covenant , and debarred from the sacraments , because their parents are unjustly seperated from the inheritance of the lord ? surely as parents unjustly excommunicated do continue still not onely true members of the invisible body , but visible members of the flock of christ : so the right of baptisme doth belong to the infants of such parents , though not actuall and constant members of this or that present assembly in church order . 2. if they be without , because no members of a politike bodie or spirituall fellowship : then all members which are of one societie are without to another : for they that be not of the bodie are not capable of church censures , or subject to the authoritie one of another . and so not being under the judgement of that particular church to it they are without ; whereas in ancient and moderne times distinct societies did communicate together , admit and receive each other as brethren , to testifie their fellowship in the faith . if the reason whereupon the apostle saith the church of corinth was not to judge them that were without , was because they were not within the church of corinth , and so not under their censure or judgement : this holds true of them that be of another society admitted to the sacrament , as well as of such as be no set members desiring to be received to the lords supper . 3. ( the fornicators of this world ) do they not explaine whom the apostle pointeth unto by the title of being without , ver . 10. 11. such as had not received the covenant of grace . 4. church order is necessarie we denie not ; but this order that a man should be a constant and set member of a particular societie by covenant , to make him a true member of the visible church , or to give him title or interest to the publick order , this is not taught of god. 5. paul divides all men into two ranks , the first and greater without ; the last and lesser within : but that beleevers who have received the holy ghost , and have been baptised into jesus christ , that they and their children should be reckoned among them that are without , that we read not in this nor any other scripture , but in phrase of scripture hereticks themselves are within the church . 6. the beleevers not yet gathered ( as the godly learned think ) into a certain distinct body are called beleevers , brethren , disciples ; but that they should be comprehended under them that are without , it hath not been beleeved in the church . 7. without ( faith the apostle whether alluding to this place or not , let others judge ) are dogs , inchanters , whoremongers , not such as are called faithfull and holy , walking in integritie , beleeving in and professing jesus christ to be their saviour . 8. they that are without in the apostles sense are aliens from the common-wealth of israel , strangers from the covenant of promise , having no hope , and without god in the world : but we hope you will not passe such rash and unadvised censure upon your brethren , who be not gathered into your societie as set members . 9. let the interpretation stand , and he is without , not onely who is no set member of some congregationall assembly , but he that is not subject to the censure of the community of that particular combination few or many , with , or without officers . and so all the reformed churches in the world who ascribe the power of the keyes to the presbitry or classes , and not to the community , and some amongst your selves ( if not the most ) shall be without also . and therefore we cannot think approved christians desiring to be received unto the sacrament , either to be without , or uncapable of church censures for the time being if they should offend , though not set members of any particular congregation : for desiring baptisme for their children or themselves to be admitted to the lords supper for the time they put themselves under the ordinance of jesus christ there . and as they are members for the time , so they might be proceeded against according to the rule prescribed by our saviour , as they would proceed with an offending member . 10. if upon just and good reason a passage of scripture can be cleared to prove that for which it was never alledged by any writer , we are not to except against any truth of god , because it wanteth mans testimonie . onely if we desire credit in such cases , our reasons must be weightie and convincing . but for your exposition of this text of scripture , as yet we have not observed one substantiall ground , or approved author to be alledged . doctor ames shewing the necessitie of christians joyning themselves to some particular church , giveth this reason , quoniam alias fieri non potest quum conturbentur signa illa quibus fideles ab infidelibus discerni possunt . 1. cor. 5. 12. but herein dr. ames manifestly sheweth that by them that are [ without ] heathens , and unbeleevers must be understood , and not beleevers and godly men though of no particular setled societie for the time , for thus we conceive he argueth . the signes and evidences whereby the faithfull are to be discerned from unbeleevers , must not be confounded : but unlesse christians make themselves actuall members of a societie or church , the signes whereby the faithfull are discerned from unbeleevers , will be obscured and darkned . and if this be his reason how can that text of scripture be alledged for confirmation , unlesse by [ men without ] infidels be understood . again doctor ames in the same book , lib. 4. ca. 27. speaking of infants to be received , it is required ( he saith ) that they be in the covenant of grace in respect of outward profession , and estimation in respect of their parents , and that there is hope they shall be instructed and brought up in the same covenant . 2. that baptisme doth most properly belong to those infants whose parents , at least one of them is in the church , and not without , because baptisme is a signe and seale of the covenant of grace . 3. that children that are cast forth are in charitie to be esteemed the children of christian parents , when there is no just cause of presuming the contrary , that in admitting unto baptisme a difference must be put betweene the infants of those who in some sort belong to the church , but openly break the covenant of god , and the children of others . 1. because a distinction must be observed in holy things betweene the cleane and uncleane ; seeing else the ordinance of god cannot be preserved from all pollution . to say nothing of that which he addeth touching the baptisme of infants borne in fornication , excommunication , and papists , which is more then sufficient to cleare his meaning in the former passage . to this may be added that he holdeth it not necessarie that christians should gather themselves into a particular society , but as opportunitie and occasion should offer it self . so that it was never his mind to censure them who be not gathered into church-covenant , because they want means or opportunitie as men without in the apostles sense . his judgement is further manifested in his second manuduction , pa. 33. so many parish assemblies of england ( saith he ) as have any competent number of good christians in them , united to worship god ordinarily in one societie , so many have the essence and integrall forme of a visible church , and all they have intire right to christ , and to all the meanes of injoying him , how ever they are defective in the puritie of their combination , and in the compleat free exercising of their power , whereupon a reverend * elder now among you draws this conclusion , ergo to dischurch them wholly , and to separate from them as no churches of christ , or to denie baptisme to the infants of their known members is not warrantable by any rule of scripture that i know , nor justified by any assertion or practise . answ . 5. consideration . vve may adde hereunto for a fifth consideration , the evill and pernicious consequences of extending communion in church priviledges beyond the bounds of church fellowship : for thus , 1. the extraordinarie office of the apostles , and the ordinarie office of pastors and teachers will be much confounded , if the latter be as illimited as the former in the execution of their office beyond the bounds of their own particular churches . 2. the distinction of church assemblies from the confused multitude is abroagated , if without membership in a particular church the parents may communicate with the churches in the lords supper , and their seed in baptisme . 3. the church shall indanger the profaning of the seals , and want one speciall meanes whereby the grace and pietie of men may be discerned and made known ; for if without respect to their church estate men of approved pietie ( as you say ) are to be admitted to fellowship in the seales , how shall their pietie be approved to the church not by their own report of themselves alone without attestation of such as are approved by the church ; and how can such beare witnesse to their approved pietie , who against light refuse to professe subjection to the gospel of christ by orderly joyning themselves in fellowship with some approved church of christ as members thereof when they have opportunitie thereunto , seeing such fellowship is an action of pietie required of all beleevers in the second commandment ; and true pietie frameth mens spirits to have respect to all gods commandments . and we have had much experience of it , that men of approved pietie in the judgement of some have been found too light , not onely in the judgement of others , but even of their own consciences , when they have come to triall in offering themselves to be members of churches , with such a blessing hath god followed this order of taking hold of church-covenant by publick profession of faith and repentance before men be admitted to the seales ; but this meanes of discoverie of mens pietie and sinceritie would be utterly lost , if men should be admitted unto the lords table without entring in church-fellowship . reply . if it be repugnant to divine institution to admit of approved christians lawfully baptized , walking in the faith , members of the visible churches , and partakers of church priviledges among us to the lords supper , or their children to baptisme , because they be not entred into church fellowship according to your order , then it is unlawfull though no such evill consequences are to be feared . but if by accident some abuse should fall out , the evill is to be prevented by all lawfull meanes : but the faithfull are not utterly to be debarred of the order of god , whereto they have right and title by his free grant and gracious invitation . and no question but the seales of the covenant may be profaned many times when it is not in the power of the dispensers to put back or expell such as profane them . if the congregation shall admit of , or tolerate an unworthy member , the churches priviledges are profaned ; and yet we conceive you will say the pastor is not faulty in receiving him , when the church doth tolerate unworthily , if he do what pertaineth to his office to keep the holy things of god from contempt . but in the case propounded there is no feare or danger of such consequences necessarie to follow : for the question is not of all sorts at randame , but of christians professing the faith intirely , lawfully baptised , known , and approved to the consciences of the wise and judicious visible members of the churches of christ among us often admitted to the lords table , whether these either sufficiently knowne unto you , or orderly recommended may upon desire and suite themselves be admitted to communicate in the lords supper , and their children to be baptized , what feare is there now that the extraordinarie office of the apostles , and the ordinarie office of pastors and teachers shall be much or little confounded ? is this to take as illimited power as the apostles did in the execution of their office ? how shal this tend to abrogate the distinction of church assemblies from the confused multitude ? or how is the profanation of the seals thereby indangered ? you aske if without respect to their church estate men of approved pietie ( as we say ) are to be admitted into fellowship in the seals , how shall their pietie be approved to the church , not by their own report of themselves alone , &c. do not you say the same , that there be many godly persons , and of approved pietie among us , who are not approved by their own report of themselves ( unlesse ye will take their wisedome , faith , patience , courage , constancie , and holinesse of life for their report ) approved , we say by as ample and sufficient testimonie as the apostles exacted of them whom they received into church fellowship , or can be required of members admitted unto the priviledges of the church , if men will follow the lords direction , or as you can give to ordinances members of your societies . you professe high respect of your brethren in old england , but it seemes you judge them insufficient to give orderly testimonie of the sinceritie and uprightnesse of approved christians , well known unto them , and living among them , which two cannot well agree . we speake not of such who against light refuse to professe subjection to the gospel of christ to joyne themselves orderly in fellowship with some approved church : but of such as do with all readinesse professe subjection , and walk accordingly , and heartily desire to joyn themselves to the most pure and compleat churches so farre as they are taught of god , or have opportunitie thereunto . and if exception be taken against them onely , who refuse against light to submit themselves to the gospel ; by what rule do you proceed when you judge men to refuse against light , or debarre them who do not refuse against conscience , but for lacke of opportunitie . no doubt ( as you say ) but now and then a man of approved pietie in the judgement of some may be found too light , yea and in the judgement of his owne conscience when he hath come to triall . and no question but many have been admitted by the church , who indeed and truth are much too light ; and some refused who deserved better then they that cast them off , we will not dispute what errours have been committed , nor what blessing ye have found upon your proceedings ; we heartily beseech the lord to keep your congregation pure , make his ordinances more and more effectuall , go before you in the way wherein you should walk , and multiply his mercies upon you in the same . but this we are perswaded , and therefore we speak , that in debarring godly christians from the lords supper , and much more the children of those parents who are in covenant with god , from holy baptisme you exceed your commission you have received from god , and go beyond your due bounds . and notwithstanding your circumspection more worthy and faithfull christians have been denied when of lesse worth , and meaner sufficiencies have passed , and been by you received . answ . 6. consid . none have power to dispence the seales but they that are called to the office of ministery ; and no man can be so called till first there be a church to call him , seeing the power of calling ministers is given by christ unto the church ; and thence it follows , that all those that desire to partake of the seales , are bound to joyne themselves in church state , that so they may call a minister to dispense the seales unto them . and this dutie by the appointment of god lieth not onely upon some christians , but equally upon all : ergo no christian can expect by the appointment of god to partake in the seals till he have joyned himselfe in church fellowship , and in the call of the minister . and indeed seeing a church , and a minister called by the church , is of such necessitie for the dispensing of the seales , it may seeme unreasonable that some christians should be bound to become a church , and to call a minister that so the seales may be dispensed , and other men ( when this is done ) have equall libertie to the seals who refuse to joyne unto the church . reply . this conclusion is not to the question propounded , for we speake of such as cannot , not of such as refuse to joyne themselves unto the church ; or if they do not joyne , it is not out of contempt or wilfull neglect of gods ordinance , or desire of carnall libertie , and not to be in subjection to christ , but for lacke of opportunitie , or through their fault that should admit them but do not . for if in any of your churches you shall require more of members to be admitted then christ the chiefe shepherd of the flock doth , or presse that upon their consciences which they cannot consent unto , if they shall fit downe quietly for the time and serve god in private , when they cannot injoy church priviledges , it is your fault and not theirs . and they may more justly challenge the assemblie as injurious and tyrannicall , then you them as wilfull despisers of gods ordinance . we accuse not the wisedome and discretion of your chuches , but we know the zealous multitude may sometimes be rash ; and when a reason is craved of your judgement , why you do debarre the most knowne and approved christians which come over , and their children from the seals of the covenant , we dislike you should put this note upon them , as if against light they refused orderly to subject themselves to the gospel of jesus christ : what warrant you have thus to censure , what use of this manner of dispute we leave it to your godly wisedome to judge . in the consideration it self there are many propositions couched together , which we must examine severally as they have reference to the conclusion intended , and then try whether it can be raised from them . the first proposition , that none have power to dispence the seales , but they that are called to the office of ministery , is freely granted . the second , that no man can be so called till first there be a church to call him , needeth explication . for by the church you must understand the community of the faithfull , as they are one bodie , without officers or guides . and such a church there cannot be without a ministery to call and admit them into church-fellowship . the apostles baptised not themselves , but by the help of others , & those not called of the people to be baptised , 1 cor. 1. 17. the apostles appointed by electiō , elders in every city or church . and so there was a church before elders were set over it , but this church was a societie of beleevers by baptisme admitted into church-fellowship . there can be no church to call a minister to feed the flock , and dispence the seals , till they have received the doctrine of salvation intirely , and by the seale of initiation be solemnly received into the societie of men professing christ . a company of men converted to the faith being unbaptized , may and ought to desire baptisme , but they have not power to elect and chuse one among themselves to dispence the seales unto the rest for ought is to be found in scripture : the churches constitution into which christians are to gather themselves must be apostolicall , and not one day or houre younger in nature and forme of it , thus the first church of the new testament . but it can never be shewed in scripture that any societie of unbaptised persons did first chuse from among them a pastor or teacher by whom they might be baptised : you cannot produce one example or other proofe in the scripture , of one man teaching the gospel ministerially but he was baptised , and a member of a true church , or of a societie who made choice of a pastor and teacher , but they were baptised persons . the third proposition , that the power of calling ministers is given by christ unto the church , must also be rightly understood : for by the church must be meant the societie of the faithfull , not onely ingrafted into christ , set into the state of salvation , and made heires apparent of everlasting blessednesse , but solemnly entred and inrolled into the societie of christs flock , and acknowledged members by free admission into the seales of the covenant . againe , by the church if we speake of ordinary calling , must not be understood of the faithfull alone , but their guides and officers together with them , who are to goe before the rest , and to direct and governe them in their choice . neither can we say , that any two or three beleevers linked together in societie doe make such a church , as to whom the calling of the minister doth belong : but that right was given by christ to such churches as were gathered and established by the apostles . the church hath a ministery of calling one whom christ hath described , that from christ he may have power of office given him in the vacant place . but the office , gift , and power of the ministery , is immediately from christ and not from the church . the church doth neither virtually nor formally give power to her officers but ministerially onely , as ministring to him who hath power and vertue to conferre it . and this right of election is so given to the communitie and body of the people , that if they have consented to give away their right , or if it be taken injuriously from them , the calling of the minister notwithstanding may be true , and ministeriall acts done by him that is thrust upon the people without their consent may be effectuall to their salvation . a wrong it is altogether to debarre the godly of their consent in the calling of such as must watch for their soules ; but it makes not the calling it selfe a meere nullitie ; for then many churches in the world within a few hundred yeares after christ should have wanted both ministery and sacraments , and they would have been altogether destitute of both ministery and sacraments for many hundred yeares . the fourth , that all those who desire to partake in the seales , are bound to joyne themselves together in church-state , that so they may call a minister to dispence the seales unto them , will not follow from the former rightly understood . we deny not but christians are bound to joyne themselves together in holy fellowship , if god give them opportunitie : but they must partake in the seales before they can joyne themselves together in church-state . and such as for lack of meanes and opportunitie cannot joyne themselves into such an estate , or be dispersed by persecution , or be destitute of pastors and teachers , may for a time desire and seek to have the seales dispenced unto them by the pastors and teachers of other societies , with whom they hold communion in the faith . the people also who are deprived of right and libertie to choose their pastor , may desire and seek to have the seales dispenced unto them by him who is set over them . if a company of infidells should be converted to the faith , they must desire to partake in the ordinances of grace before they could joyne together in a church-way to call a minister of their own , who might administer the sacraments unto them . to make disciples and baptize are joyned together . and if these propositions be allowed for current , a nation or people plunged into idolatry or infidelitie , or otherwise dischurched , cannot by ordinary meanes recover into a church-estate , wherein they may lawfully and according to gods appointment desire or expect that the seales of the covenant should be dispenced to them . the fifth proposition riseth beyond measure , that no christian can expect by the appointment of god to partake in the seales till he have joyned himselfe in church-fellowship and the calling of the minister . wee conceive you will not say that children and women have to doe in the call of the minister ( for women they are debarred by their sex as from ordinary prophesying , so from any other dealing wherein they take authority over the man ) if some part of the congregation doe not consent in the election of pastors or teachers , have they not right to expect to have the seales of the covenant dispenced to themselves or their seede ? if the people be deprived of that libertie to choose or call their minister , must they seperate from the ordinances of worship there dispenced , and from the congregations as no true churches ? if some persons by the providence of god live in such places where they cannot joyne in church-fellowship and call of the minister ( as suppose the christian wife , childe , or servant ) nor lawfully remove to any such societie , must they and their children live as strangers and aliens from the covenant of grace , wherein they may not expect to partake of the seales ▪ in infidels be converted to the faith , must they not partake in the seales , because they cannot joyne in church-fellowship and call of the minister , before they be admitted to baptisme ? here you say the people must joyne together in the call of the minister , before they can lawfully desire to be admitted to the seales . and another hath zealously affirmed ( it is a presumptuous sin in any to choose an officer not trained up and tryed ( scil . ) in the debating , discussing , carrying , and contriving of church-affaires , as also in admonition , exhortation , and comfort , publickly occasioned and so manifested ) lay these two together , and let it be considered how long many a poore soule converted to the faith must be compelled to want the comfort of gods ordinances . besides , if a people be joyned together in church-fellowship , and have called a pastor to feed and watch over them , wee desire ( not words but ) proofe why the poore dispersed christians wanting means or opportunitie to joyn themselves together into societie , ought not to desire , and that others be not bound in conscience to afford them the comfort of gods ordinances . if the propositions may stand for good , i feare we shall scarce finde that ever in ordinary way , the sacraments were lawfully dispenced or received in the christian churches of god since the first foundation of them . now the premises being liable to so many exceptions , the conclusion to be laid upon them , will fall of it selfe . and thereunto wee oppose the direct contrary . that infidels converted to the faith , or godly christians , formerly visible beleevers , knowne and approved members of congregations professing the intire faith , and joyning together in the lawfull use of the sacraments for substance according to the institution , may and ought to desire and expect the seales of the covenant to be dispenced to them , and to their seede , though for the present they be not joyned into such church-state and call of ministers as you require . answer 7. consideration . that our practise may not be censured as novell and singular , give us leave to produce a president of the like care observed and approved by publick countenance of state in the dayes of edward 6. of blessed and famous memory , who in the yeare 1550. granted johannes alasco a learned noble man of poland under the great seale of england , libertie to gather a church of strangers in london , and to order themselves according as they should finde to be most agreeable to the scriptures . among other godly orders established in that church , that which concerned the administration of baptisme to prevent the prophanation of it we will repeate in alascoes owne words . baptisme in our church ( saith he ) is administred in the publique assembly of the church after the publique sermon : for seeing baptisme doth so belong to the whole church that none ought to be driven thence , which is a member of the church , nor to be admitted to it who is not a member of it , truely it is equall that that should be performed publiquely in the assembly of the whole church , which belongs to the whole church in common . againe , he addeth ; now seeing our churches are by gods blessing so established by the kings majestie , that they may be as it were one parish of strangers dispersed throughout the whole citie , or one body corporate ( as it is called in the kings grant ) and yet all strangers doe not joyne themselves to our church , yea there are those who while they avoyde all churches , will pretend to the english churches that they are joyned with us , and to us that they are joyned to the english churches , and so doe abuse both them and us , lest the english churches and the ministers thereof should be deceived by the impostures of such men ( and that under colour of our churches ) wee doe baptize their infants alone who have adjoyned themselves to our churches by publique confession of their faith , and observation of ecclesiasticall discipline . and that our churches may be certaine that the infants that are to be baptized are their seede , who have joyned themselves thereto in manner aforesaid , the father of the infant to be baptized ( if possible he can ) or other men and women of notable credit in the church , doe offer the infant to baptisme , and doe publickly professe that it is the seede of the church , yet wee suffer no stranger to offer infants to baptisme in our churches , who hath not made publique profession of his faith , and willingly submitted himselfe to the discipline of the church , lest otherwise they who present their children to baptisme , might in time plead that they belong to our churches , and so should deceive the english churches and their ministers . to those which presented infants to baptisme , they propounded three questions , the first was ; are these infants which yee offer the seed of this church , that they may lawfully be here baptized by our ministery ? &c. answer , yea. this instance is the more to be regarded , because alasco affirmeth in the preface of that book , that this libertie was by the king granted to them out of his desire to settle alike reformation in the english churches , which in effect you see the same with out practise in this particular . reply . the practise of the church of strangers in london , recorded by john alasco , is farre different from your judgement and practise , not in some by-circumstances , but in the maine point in question ; for your judgement is that true visible beleevers , baptized and partakers of the lords supper in other churches not yet gathered into church-estate or fellowship , have no right or interest in the seales , ( they nor their seede . ) but this church of strangers held no such opinion as their own words ( which you have omitted ) doe plainly speake . and paul testifyeth ( say they ) that by christs ordinance the church it selfe without exception of any member of it , is to be accounted cleane or holy by the ministery of baptisme . whence we may easily see , that baptisme doth neither belong to those who are altogether without the church , nor to be denyed to any member of the church . secondly , they held communion with the church of england as one and the same with theirs . for so they professe : yet neverthelesse , that we may openly shew that the english churches and ours are one and the same church ( though we differ somewhat from them both in language and ceremonies ) we doe not refuse that the english may as publick witnesses of the church offer the infants of our members to baptisme in our churches , if they have both the use of our language and a certain testimony of their piety . as in like manner our members are accustomed to offer the infants of the english to baptisme in the english churches . if your judgement be this of the english churches , your judgement in acknowledging us members of true churches , and practise in debarring visible beleevers and their seede from the seales , are opposite the one to the other . thirdly , this order was observed by them to prevent the impostures of some , who whilst they avoyded all churches , pretended to the english , that they were joyned to the strangers , and to the strangers that they were joyned to the english . but you debarre knowne christians who desire to joyne themselves with you , not to prevent impostures of them who avoyde all churches : yea , you debarre them as men having no right to the sacraments , because they be not in church-fellowship : and herein you can shew no president ancient or moderne , either from scripture or monuments of the church : and as your practise is without example , so without warrant from the word of god. and this is the maine reason why we cannot consent unto you in this particular which we thus propound . 1 reason . that sacred order which god hath set in his visible church for all his saints to keep and walk by , that is religiously to be observed . but for men to set up that as a necessarie order which god never allowed , approved , or commanded , is great presumption . now the lord hath not ordained that a man should be a set member of a particular societie , or body politique of faithfull people joyned together in spirituall church-fellowship by covenant , before he be admitted unto the lords supper , or that the parents should be actuall visible set members of some particular distinct body before their children be baptised . they that beleeve in jesus christ have received the word of promise and walk therein , they and their children are within the covenant , and have right and title to the seales of the covenant , but in their order , the infants to baptisme , parents baptised , to the lords supper . and if in that state by divine grant they have interest to the sacraments , the church in debarring them because they be not yet grown into one distinct separate societie of mutuall covenant , doth exceed the bounds of her commission . for a ministeriall power onely is committed to the church to admit or refuse them who are to be admitted or refused by authoritie from god : but the church if she thrust beleeving parents from the supper of the lord , and their seed from baptisme ; she denieth these benefits to them who by the grace and gift of god have lawfull right and title thereto . 1. for first , the baptisme of john was true baptisme , and truly administred by him : and they that were baptized by him received the seales of the covenant , and were esteemed members of the visible church : but john never demanded of them who came to his baptisme whether they were entred into spirituall fellowship by mutuall covenant one with another . this was not then knowne to be a necessarie and essentiall point in the lawfull , due , and orderly administration of the sacrament . the disciples of our saviour made and baptised disciples professing the faith , but not combined into church-state or fellowship . the apostles commission was first to teach the gentiles , and then to baptise them having received their doctrine . and this they carefully observed in the execution of their ministery upon grounds and reasons common to them and us : for as soone as any man or number of men gladly received the doctrine of salvation , and gave their names to jesus christ , if they desired to be baptised forthwith they accepted them , never excepting , that they were no set members of a distinct visible congregation . when the first 3000. converts , being pricked in their consciences , came to peter , and the rest of the apostles , saying , men and brethren , what shall we do ? peter returns this answer , repent and be baptised every one of you in the name of jesus , &c. for to you is the promise made , and to your children , and to all that are afar off , &c. as soon as the samaritanes beleeved , philip who preached the things that concerned the kingdom of god , they were baptised both men and women . when the eunuch asked of philip , see here is water , what doth let me to be baptised ? he answereth not if thou beest first received as a set member into a visible congregation thou mayest : but if thou beleevest with all thy heart , thou mayest . can any man forbid water ( saith peter , speaking of the gentiles upon whom was powred the gift of the holy ghost ) that these should not be baptised who have received the gift of the holy ghost as well as we ? at that time it was not held a bar sufficient to keep them from the sacrament of baptisme , because they were not set members of a distinct societie , which had it been essentiall to the lawfull and orderly administration of the sacraments , questionlesse it had been observed in the first institution and administration of them . annanias baptised paul before he was any set member of a congregationall assembly . lydia and her houshold , the jaylor and his house were baptised without regard to their church-estate . for in the same night which he was converted , he was baptized with all his houshold . and this was done not by the apostles onely upon speciall dispensation , but by others upon grounds and reasons common to them , and all ages , viz. because they were disciples , beleeved , gladly received the word , had received the holy ghost , were called , and the promise was made to them , and to their seed , even to all them that were afarre off . now if the apostles dispensed the seales to them that were not in church-fellowship upon common grounds , it is not essentiall to the lawfull dispensation of the seales , that all partakers should be under such a covenant . if the baptised disciples , beleevers , such as gladly received the word , and had received the gift of the holy ghost , then the seals of the covenant belong unto such , and by the grace of god they have right and title unto those priviledges . 2. as we received the sacraments from god by divine institution ; so must we learne from him , how and to whom the same are to be administred , observing what he hath commanded without addition or diminution . but we have learned from christ the author of baptisme , and the constant practise of the apostles ( the first dispensers of these holy seales who best understood the mind and pleasure of the lord herein ) that such as be called of god to whom the promise is made , who have received the gifts of the holy ghost , beleeved in the lord jesus , professed their faith in him , and repentance for sins past with purpose of amendment for the time to come , that such have right unto , and desiring it ought to be received unto baptisme , and are greatly wronged if they be deprived of that unspeakable benefit . 3. by a lively faith a man is made a living member of jesus christ , and hath internall communion with him by the intire profession of christian faith joyned with conformity of life in righteousnesse , and holinesse , and fellowship of love , he is a member of the visible congregation or flock of christ , though no set member of a free distinct independant societie . and baptisme is the seale of our admission into the congregation or flock of christ ; but not evermore of our receiving into this or that particular societie as set members thereof . this latter is accidentall to baptisme , not essentiall . it may fall out to be so , but it is not ever necessarie ; nor is the sacrament to be denyed , nor can we say it is imperfectly administred where it cannot be attained . for the catholique church is one intire bodie , made up by the collection and agregation of all the faithfull unto the unity thereof ; from which union there ariseth unto every one of them such a relation to , dependance upon that church catholique as parts use to have in respect of the whole . and this holds true , not onely of sound beleevers in respect of internall fellowship with christ their head , and so one with another ; but of all men professing the true and intire doctrine of faith and salvation in respect of them that hold and professe the same faith of christ , and worship god according to his will ; whereupon it followeth that neither particular persons , nor particular guides , nor particular churches are to worke as severall divided bodies by themselves , but are to teach , and be taught ; and to do all other duties as parts conjoyned to the whole , and members of the same flock or societie in generall : and so beleevers professing the faith , and walking in holinesse , may and ought to be admitted to the seales as actuall members of the church of christ , and sheep of his pasture , though not set members of one congregationall church . 4. not to insist upon this here , that it hath and may fall out many times through ignorance , rashnesse , or pride , of a prevailing faction in the church , that the true members of the catholique church , and the best members of the orthodox visible flock , or church of christ , may be no actuall members of any distinct societie , and shall they for this be accounted men out of covenant , and their posteritie be esteemed aliens and strangers : but if they be in covenant , then are they holy in respect of the covenant , and their children holy as pertaining to the covenant , and have right to the sacrament of initiation . thus mr. rob. frameth the argument . the sacrament of baptisme is to be administred by christs appointment , and the apostles example onely to such as are ( externally , and so far as men can judge ) taught and made disciples , do receive the word gladly , do beleeve , and so professe , have received the holy ghost , and to their seed . and thus the church of god ever since the apostles dayes understood the covenant and promise , and their practise in receiving beleevers and their seed to the seales of the covenant was answerable , as might be shewed at large , if it was not a thing confessed . hereunto you answer . answer . vvhere the holy ghost is given and received ( which was the case of the centurion ) and where faith is professed according to gods ordinance ( which was the case of the rest ) there none may hinder them from being baptised , viz. by such as have power to baptise them . in the instances given baptisme was administred either by apostles or evangelists , not ordinary pastors : the persons baptised , if they were members of churches , had a right to baptisme in their state , and the apostles being officers of all churches might dispense the seales to them where ever they came , which yet will not warrant ordinary officers to do the same . nor is it improbable but that all these were in church-order , aret. on act. 18. 1. is of opinion , that the centurion had a constituted church in his house ; the eunuches coming to jerusalem to worship , argueth him to be a proselyte , and member of the jewish church not yet dissolved : and therefore upon the profession of the christian faith capable of church priviledges at that time . as for lydia and the gaylor it appeareth that in the beginning of the gospel there was a church at philippi which communicated with paul as concerning giving and receiving : as he expresly saith , before his departure was from macedonia , which departure was immediately upon the gaylors conversion . in which respect what should hinder that lydia and the gaylor should first be joyned to the church , and then to be baptised though it be not mentioned in that story ? as neither there is mention of a christian church , which paul mentioneth in his epistle to the philippians . at least it is probable that lydia was a member of the jewish church , because she is said to be one that worshipped god. but if any man think they were not members of any church yet baptised , though we see not how it will be proved , yet if it were so , the object doth no whit weaken the argument , which speaketh of the ordinary dispensation of the seales , and not of what was done in an extraordinary way . so that suppose that in the cases alledged , baptisme dispensed to some that were not in church-fellowship , yet the examples of the apostles and evangelists in so doing will not warrant ordinary pastors to do the like . the reason of the difference why apostles and evangelists might administer baptisme out of church-order , whereas pastors and teachers may not , is double . 1. because their calling gave them illimited power over all men , especially christians wheresoever they came . but we do not find that ordinarie pastors and teachers can do an act of power , but onely over their own church , which hath called them to watch over them in the lord. 2. because they were assisted with an immediate direction and guidance of the holy ghost , in the places of their administration in the cases alledged . but ordinary church-officers are to walke according to ordinary rules of the scripture in the dispensation of the seales , and not to expect immediate inspirations and extraordinary revelations for their helpe in such cases . this difference between apostles and ordinary church-officers must needs be acknowledged , or otherwise a man might from their example justifie baptisme in private houses . reply . this answer stands of many parts , wherein things doubtfull are affirmed , and that which more weakeneth the force of the consideration before alledged , and the answer it selfe , then of the reason whereunto it is applyed . for first , if where the holy ghost is given and received , and where faith is professed according to gods ordinance , there none may hinder them from being baptized , viz. by such as have power to baptize them : then either men that have received the holy ghost , and professe the faith , be members of the church , or baptisme is not a priviledge of the church , then it is not essentiall to the first institution of baptisme , that it should be dispenced to none but such as were entered into church-fellowship , or were set members of a congregationall assembly . then the apostles in dispensing the seales unto such , or commanding them to be dispenced , did walk according to the rules of scripture , and upon grounds common to them and us , viz. they admitted them unto the sacraments who had right and interest to them , according to the minde and pleasure of the institutor , not extraordinarily revealed , besides the common rules , or by speciall dispensation and prerogative excepted from the common rule , but made knowne in the institution it selfe . and then the difficultie remaining is onely this , whether a pastor or teacher hath authority from christ to dispence the seales of the covenant to one who hath right and title to them , and doth orderly desire that benefit because he is not as yet received as a set member of that particular societie which your practise in admitting of set members of other congregations unto the seales doth manifestly convince . for if both have equall interest unto the seales , the pastor upon lawfull suite and request hath equall authoritie to receive the one as well as the other . secondly , in the particular instances given , it is not probable that baptisme was evermore administred by apostles or evangelists ; for before the death of christ , the disciples baptized when they were properly neither apostles nor evangelists : after the death of christ ( not to insist upon conjectures whether any assisted the apostles in the baptizing of the first three thousand converted ) it is not certaine , whether peter baptized cornelius and his family , or commanded others then present with him to baptize them : the words may be read : et jussit eos baptizari in nomine domini . syr. & arab. praecepit eis ut baptizarentur . the interlineary glosse leaveth it doubtfull , associis suis vel a seipso . others are of opinion that peter did baptize them himselfe . it cannot be proved that philip and ananias were both evangelists , when the one baptized the samaritans and the eunuch , the other paul. paul himselfe baptized but a few as he testifieth of himselfe , and reason to convince that others converted by his preaching were baptized by evangelists , we know not any . and if philip , ananias , and others might baptize such as had right and title to the seales , being as yet no set members of any particular congregation : and a congregation destitute of their proper pastor , may desire another to baptize their infants , and dispence the sacrament of the supper to them in that their necessitie . and if the members of one congregation may lawfully communicate in another , then may the pastors of particular congregations upon occasion admit to the seales of the covenant such known and approved christians , as have right and title thereunto , and duely and orderly require the same ; for of all these the reason is like and perpetuall . thirdly , it is very improbable that the persons baptized , were in church-state or order . if they were members of the jewish church not yet dissolved , this is not to the purpose ; for men have not right to baptisme , because they were members of the jewish church , but because disciples and ( as you say ) joyned together in covenant , and have fellowship and calling of their minister , who is to dispence the seales unto them . and baptisme is the sacrament of initiation , not into the jewish but the christian churches . secondly , when you say , the seales in ordinary dispensation are the priviledges of the churches . there are no ministers but of particular churches . baptisme and the lords supper are to be administred onely to the members of the church . no societie may lawfully desire the seales , unlesse they have joyned in the choice and calling of their minister . beleevers not yet joyned in church-order are without . doe yee not in all these understand a christian societie , united in a church-way , &c. which cannot agree to the members of the jewish church , not yet dissolved . thirdly , the constitution of the church ( saith mr. robin . ) is the orderly collection and conjunction of the saints into and in the covenant of the new testament ; but the members of jewish churches not yet dissolved , were not in such constitution . if the eunuch and centurion were proselytes and members of the church of the jewes ; the samaritanes whom philip baptized were not so . and that any gentiles , or the gailor whom paul baptized in the apostles times , were set members of a christian assembly before baptized , is very strange . if there was a church at philippi , yet the gailor who was baptized and converted the same night , could not be a set member by solemne admission before baptisme . it is said the apostles baptized these persons in an extraordinary way . but in this practise of the apostles two things are to be considered . 1. the circumstance of the action . 2. the qualitie or substance of the act . in some circumstances the baptizing of some of these persons might be extraordinary , but the substance and qualitie of the action was grounded upon rules perpetuall and common to us with them . 1. that is done in an extraordinary way , which by peculiar priviledge of dispensation is made lawfull to some one or few men , which is unlawfull to all others , not having the same dispensation , but where the ground and reason of the action is common : we must not conceive the thing to be done in an extraordinary way by speciall dispensation . what was done by the apostles upon speciall revelation and immediate direction , besides the ordinary and common rule , in that wee are not to immitate or follow them , because we have not their warrant . but what they did upon reasons and grounds reaching unto us no lesse then unto them , in that we have the same libertie , allowance , or commandement that they did walk by . in one and the same action there may be and oft is something ordinary , something extraordinary or peculiar to speciall times or persons . so it was in the apostles administration of the seales : but in every place where they came by illimited power ( as you speake ) they did baptize disciples , if they did baptize ; this was proper to them , and could not be communicated to any others by them ; for there is no passage of scripture which teacheth this , that one officer may communicate his power to another , or doe that which particularly belongeth to his office by a deputie : but that they baptized beleevers professing their faith in the lord jesus , and repentance towards god , such as had gladly imbraced the word , and received the gifts of the holy ghost : this was common to them with all pastors and teachers , because they did it , not by power illimited or speciall dispensation , but upon this standing perpetuall reason , that the promise was made to them and to their seede , and to as many as the lord shall call , that they had received the holy ghost , and the kingdome of heaven belonged to them . and if the grounds and reasons of their practise be common reaching to us , no lesse then unto them , the practise it selfe was not extraordinary . to say nothing that this answer will not stand with the former ; for if the parties baptized were set members of particular societies , the apostles did not baptize them in an extraordinary way , they did it by the guidance and direction of the spirit , that is true , but not by guidance of dispensation , or prerogative , whereby that was made lawfull without such inspiration had been unlawfull . but they were infallibly guided to doe that which was according to the word of god , and might stand for our direction : that in case it be orderly desired a pastor hath authoritie in his owne congregation , to receive knowne and approved christians to the seales of the covenant , hath been proved before . if the apostles dispenced the seales onely to the church , disciples , faithfull , who received the doctrine of salvation with gladnesse of heart , and were partakers of the holy ghost , then they dispenced the seales in an ordinary way , for such have title and interest to the seales by the institution and appointment of god. and every pastor by his office may and ought to dispence the seales unto such , within the bounds and limits of his calling : but the apostles dispenced the seales onely to the church , disciples , faithfull , &c. 2. an argument followeth necessarily from particular example to a generall ; when one particular is proved by another particular , by force of the similitude common to the whole kinde , under which those particulars are contained : but the practise of the apostles in baptizing disciples and faithfull , by force of similitude common to the whole kinde , agreeth with the practise of ministers receiving to baptisme the seed of the faithfull , though as yet not set members of any particular societie , in some circumstances there may be difference when yet the reason is strong , if the difference be not in the very likenesse it selfe whereupon the reason is grounded . one circumstance that is materiall to the point may overthrow the likenesse pretended , and twenty different circumstances , if they be not to the point in hand make no dissimilitude . now in this matter wee speake of , no circumstance is or can be named why we should thinke it lawfull for the apostles to baptize disciples as yet being no set members of particular societies , and the same should be unlawfull in all cases for ordinary pastors in their particular congregations , though it be desired . 3. what is done by extraordinary dispensation , that is lawfull for them onely who have received such dispensation , and by them cannot be communicated to others . but the apostles baptized by others seldome by themselves , as hath been shewed . 4. we might urge the rule which a reverend elder among you , giveth in another matter , ( scil . ) those examples which are backed with some divine precept , or which are held forth in the first institution of an ordinance , being part of the institution , or which were the constant lawfull actions of holy men in scripture , not civill but sacred so binde us to imitation , as that not to conforme thereunto is sinne . for the assumption to this proposition , it is plaine and naturall : but the practise of the apostles in receiving the faithfull , disciples , &c. is backed with divine precept , held forth in the first institution , and was their constant lawfull practise , agreeable to the practise of all others who were imployed in that service ; ergo , &c. 5. in the first consideration , you prove the seales to be the priviledge of the church in ordinary dispensation , by this passage of scripture , then they that gladly received the word were baptized : but if apostles baptize by extraordinary dispensation in your sense this testimony is insufficient for that purpose . 2 reason . our second reason . in due order , the seales belong to them to whom the grant is given , viz. baptisme to the seed of the faithfull , and the lords supper to beleevers , able to try and examine themselves : but the grant is vouchsafed to the faithfull and their seed , forgivenesse of sinnes , sanctification , adoption , and what other good things are promised in the covenant of grace are the grant or good things sealed in the sacrament . but those are granted to beleevers according to the covenant ; and they are so linked together , that under one promised all are understood ; and if one be vouchsafed , none is denied . when god promiseth to circumcise the heart , the forgivenesse of sinnes is implyed . and when circumcision is said to be the seale of the righteousnesse of faith , the circumcision of the heart by spirituall regeneration is included . to whomsoever then the spirituall gift , or inward grace of the covenant is given and granted , to them the seales of that gift and grant doth belong in their due order . but the spirituall gift or grace which is the thing signified in the sacrament , is freely granted to true beleevers , who have received the doctrine of salvation , and walk in the wayes of truth and righteousnesse , therefore the priviledges of the seales belong unto them . to this you answer . the scope of the apostle in the place , rom. 4. 11. is not to define a sacrament , nor to shew what is the proper and adequate subject of the sacrament ; but to prove by the example of abraham that a sinner is justified before god , not by works but by faith . thus as abraham the father of the faithfull was justified before god , so must his seed be ( that is , all beleevers whether jews or gentiles , circumcised or uncircumcised ) for therefore abraham received circumcision which belonged to the jews to confirm the righteousnesse which he had before , while he was uncircumcised , that he might be the father of both : but lest any one should think his circumcision was needlesse if he was justified by faith before circumcision ; he addeth that his circumcision was of no use as a seale to confirme to him his faith , and the righteousnesse which is by faith : yet as justification is not the onely thing that circumcision sealed , but the whole covenant also made with abraham and his seed was sealed thereby ; so abraham is to be considered in using circumcision not simply , or onely as a beleever without church relation , but as a confederate beleever , and so in the state and order of a visible church . though the apostle maketh mention of the righteousnesse of faith as sealed thereby , which was not that which served for his purpose . now that circumcision also sealed the church-covenant , may appear from gen. 17. 9. 10 , 11. where you may find that abraham and his seed , though beleevers , were not circumcised till god called them into church-covenant ; and there is the same reason & use of baptisme to us which serveth to seal our justification as circumcision did , yet not that alone , but also the whole covenant with all the priviledges of it , as adoption , sanctification , and fellowship with christ in affections , and the salvation of our souls , and the resurrection of our bodies . and not onely the covenant of grace which is common to all beleevers : but church-covenant also which is peculiar to confederates . according to that of the apostle , by one spirit we are baptized into one body , 1 cor. 12. 13. and by one bodie he meaneth that particular church of corinth whereunto he writeth and saith , now ye are the body of christ , and members in particular , ver . 27. and ergo church-membership is required as well to the orderly partaking of baptisme as it was of circumcision . nor do we find that circumcision was administred to all that were in the covenant of grace ( as all beleevers were ) but onely to such of them as were joyned to the people of the god of abraham . melchizedech was under the covenant of grace , so was lot , so was job and his foure friends ; yet we no where read that they were circumcised , nor do beleeve they were . so that if circumcision was administred to none but those that were joyned together in abrahams familie , and to the church of god in his seed , then may not baptisme in ordinarie course be administred to any beleevers now , unlesse they be joyned to the church of christ , for parum par est ratio . but the first is true , ergo , the second also . reply . the particulars in this answer hath been examined alreadie , and might have well been passed over , because it is tedious to repeat the same things againe and againe . two things are affirmed by you . 1. that the scope of the apostle , rom. 4. 11. was not to define a sacrament , nor to shew what was the proper and adequate subject of a sacrament . but this weakneth no part of the argument , for if the apostle do not fully define a sacrament , nor mention every particular benefit or prerogative sealed in the sacrament ; yet he sheweth sufficiently to whom the sacraments in due order do appertaine , even to the heires of salvation , to them that are justified by faith , and walk in the steps of our father abraham . and thus we argue from the text of the apostle . they that are partakers of the good things sealed in the sacrament , to them belong the seales of the covenant , according to gods institution . but they that are justified by faith are partakers of the good things sealed in the sacrament , to them belong the seales of the covenant according to gods institution . if justification be not the onely thing that circumcision sealed , this is nothing to the point in hand . for the gifts of the holy ghost is not the onely thing that is sealed in baptisme : but you confesse in your answer immediately going before , that they have right to baptisme who have received the holy ghost ; and the reason is the same of justification . besides if justification be not the onely thing that is sealed in the sacrament , it is one principall thing which doth inferre the rest . for the blessings of the covenant of grace in christ are inseparable ; where one is named , others are implyed : and where one is given , no one is absolutely wanting . christ is made of god wisedome , righteousnesse , sanctification , and redemption : whom god doth justifie , them he doth sanctifie , and them he will glorifie . 2. the second thing you affirme is , that not onely the covenant of grace which is common to all beleevers ; but church-covenant also which is peculiar to confederates is necessarie to the participation of the seales . this sense your words must beare , or else they reach not the point in hand : but this is that which should be proved substantially , and not barely affirmed ; and which ( as we conceive ) is contrary to the first institution of the sacrament , and the lawfull practise of john the baptist , our saviour christ , his apostles , and all others who are recorded lawfully to administer the seales . in gen. 17. we find the first institution of circumcision recorded , and that it was the seale of the covenant to abraham and his seed , to them that were borne in his house , or bought with his money : but we find no mention of any church covenant besides the covenant of promise which god made with abraham . there is no mention of any church-order into which abrahams family was now gathered more then formerly . god gave circumcision to abraham and his seed as a seale of the righteousnesse of faith ; but that this family was first gathered into church-order as you speak we cannot beleeve , because the scripture saith it not whether lot , job , melchizedech were circumcised or not , we will not dispute ; but if they received not the seale , we cannot think the reason to be because they were not in church-order as those times required , if any such thing had been required , we cannot think that either they were ignorant of it , or that they walked against their light : but according to the dispensing of those times we judge as they were visible beleevers , so they walked in that church-fellowship which god prescribed ; and therefore if circumcision had been the seale of such church-covenant as you conceive , it should have been given to them no lesse then to abrahams family . but of this sufficient is said before . as for baptisme it is the seal of the whole covenant , which the passages quoted prove it to be . whether it be the seale of our fellowship which christ in affliction , and the resurrection of our bodies , we leave it to your consideration : but that it should be a seal of a church-covenant which is peculiar to confederates , that to us is very strange . that it is a solemne admission into the church of christ , and that of necessitie it must be administred in a particular societie ( though in the passage to the corinthians the mysticall bodie of christ be understood ) will easily be granted . but that it is the seale of any other covenant but the covenant of grace we cannot digest . the sacraments are of god , and we must learne of god for what end and use they were ordained . but by the institution or baptisme recorded in scripture we have learned it belongeth to the faithfull , to disciples , to them that are called of god : and as for any other covenant necessarie to the right participation of the seales , there is deep silence of it in the institution , in the lawfull and approved practise of the first dispensers of these sacred mysteries . enough hath been said to this matter alreadie , but we will conclude it with the words of that reverend author whom we have cited many times before upon occasion . afterwards ( saith he ) john the baptist walked in the same steps , and by the same rule administred baptisme in the church whereof he was a member , required of all that came to his baptisme a profession of repentance , and amendment of life for remission of sinnes whereof baptisme was a seale , and preached christ to them . this order our lord jesus christ after his resurrection established to continue in the christian churches , giving a commission to his disciples to preach the gospel to the gentiles , and to gather all such as should beleeve through the world , as a testimonie to them , that the righteousnesse of faith did belong to them also , and not to the church of the jews onely . accordingly the apostles and servants of christ were carefull to observe this rule in their administring baptisme . thus peter when he saw those three thousand souls pricked in their hearts , preached unto them concerning repentance , remission of sin , christ , the promise , baptisme , faith , amendment of life , baptised those that gladly received his word , and testified the same by joyning together in the profession thereof . the same course philip took with the church that was gathered in samaria , where many were baptized , but none till they professed their beliefe of the gospel , and their receiving of the word of god. and therefore it is said expresly , when they beleeved philip preaching the things concerning the kingdome of god , and the name of jesus christ , they were baptised both men and women . when ananias was commanded to go and baptise paul , he objected against it at first , till the lord assured him that he was one to whom the seale of the covenant belonged , and then he went and did it . when peter and those that came with him saw that the holy ghost fell on cornelius , and those that were assembled at that time in his house , whilest he spake these words , to him give all the prophets witnesse , that through the name of jesus whosoever beleeveth on him shall receive remission of sinnes . peter demanded , can any man forbid water that these should not be baptised , which have received the holy ghost as well as we ? in this catalogue we see profession of faith and repentance required in them that were admitted to partake in the seals ; but there is not a word of church-covenant , either in the institution or administration of the seales before they were admitted to them . that christians are solemnly ingrafted into the body of christ , and into particular societies by the seales , is a truth acknowledged on all sides : but that ever it was deemed necessarie , that a christian should be a set member of a particular congregationall church before he were admitted to the seales , or that by divine institution any such thing is ordained as necessarie thereunto , that upon the grounds before mentioned we denie , and cannot account it lesse then an addition to the institution . for if the sacraments be seales of the covenant of grace , and baptisme by divine institution belong to disciples , faithfull , saints , who have gladly received the word of grace , are justified by faith , sanctified by the spirit , adopted to be the children of god by grace , and heires apparent to the kingdom of heaven ; then to debarre such from the seales , and their seed from baptisme , because they be not in church-covenant ( as you speake ) is an addition to the ordinance of grace , and many wayes injurious to the people of god. v. position . that the power of excommunication is so in the body of the church , that what the major part shall allow must be done , though the pastors and governors and the rest of the assembly be of another minde , and that peradventure upon more substantiall reasons . answer . if the question had been , whether the power of excommunication lies in the body of the congregation , consisting of officers and members ; our answer should be affirmative , and according hereunto is also our practise , and wee hope your judgement and ours are not different herein : but seeing the question is , whether it is so in the body of the congregation , that what the major part doth allow that must be done , though the pastors and governors , and the rest of the assembly , doe dissent upon more substantiall reasons . our answer is negative , viz. that the power of excommunication is not sealed in the congregation , neither ought it to be so in any of the churches of the lord jesus , who ought not to carry matters by number of votes against god , as this position implyeth , but by strength of rule and reason according to god. the power of the apostles was not to doe things against the truth but for the truth , 2 cor. 13. 8 and not for destruction , but for edification , 2 cor. 10. 8. and the same may be said concerning the power which god hath given to the church , and if any church among us have swerved from the rule ( which is more then we know ) we doe not allow them in such a practise , but should be ready as the lord should helpe to convince them of their sin therein . reply . this question is much mistaken , for the demand is not whether in the congregation matters should be carryed by number of votes against god , as you interpret the position , but whether the power of excommunication so lye in the body of the congregation as that sentence must proceed in externo foro , according to the vote and determination of the major part , and so whether power of admission of members doe so reside in the communitie , as that they must be refused whom the major part refuse , though the pastors and governors and part of the congregation be of another judgement , and he admitted whom the major part doth approve . and though the church hath received no power against god , but for god , yet in the execution of the power no doubt the members of that church may be of different judgements and affections , wherein the one side or other doth erre , and is deceived . now the question hereupon moved is , whether the power of the keyes be so given and committed to the society of the faithfull , as that in externall court that act or sentence must stand and be in force which the greater part shall determine amongst them which hold the power of the keyes to be given to the church . some a distinguish betwixt the power it self which they give to the church , and the execution and exercise of it , which they confine to the presbytery : b others give the power of the keyes with the exercise thereof to the whole body of the church , or if in the dispensation they attribute any thing to the officers , it is but as servants of the church , from whom they derive their authoritie . by church also some understand the communitie of the faithfull , together with their officers and guides . and here lyeth the stone at which they of the seperation stumble , and which we conceive to be your judgement and practise , wherein we required your plaine answer , with your reasons , but have received no satisfaction . you referre us to mr. parkers reasons to prove the power of the keyes to belong to the whole church , who are of farre different judgement from mr. parker in the point it selfe . and if your judgement and practise be according to that of the seperation ( which we feare ) you dissent from him , and we cannot but dissent from you upon these considerations . 1. no power agreeth to the multitude or communitie of the faithfull , but that which is given them of the lord by his positive law ; for the whole spirituall power for the gathering and government of his church is given to christ as mediator . and if the power of the keyes be derived from , and communicated by christ unto his church , of necessitie it must draw its originall from divine positive law , and can agree to none but as it is communicated . but the communicated power of the keyes with the execution thereof , christ hath not given immediately to the whole multitude , but to some persons and officers designed and appointed thereunto . peruse the severall passages of scripture , wherein power and authoritie of preaching the gospel , administring the sacraments , binding and loosing is given to the church : and it is apparent that distinct severall persons are spoken of , and not the whole communitie ; goe teach all nations , and baptize them , &c. whose sinnes yee remit , they are remitted , &c. feed my lambes , feed my sheepe , &c. were these things spoken to the whole communitie , or to speciall persons ? 2. if christ gave this power to the communitie , was it from the beginning of the church , or tooke it effect after the churches were planted and established by the apostles . not the first , for then the apostles themselves should derive their power from the communitie and societie of the faithfull , which they did not , but from christ immediately , both in respect of gifts and graces , their calling it selfe , and the designation of their persons . it is said the power of the keyes given to the apostles was given to the church , in tuitu ejusdem tanquam finis & totius . and it is true the apostles were given to the church , and the power they received was for the good of the whole ; but this is not enough . that power may be said to be received immediately by the church , as the first receptacle of it , and from it derived to others . but this power must be in the communitie as the first subject , from whom it commeth to the officers . as the power of seeing is not onely given in tuitu hominis , as the end of it , and the totum to whom it agreeth , but is in homine as the first subject from which it commeth to the eyes the apostles and other governors were given of christ for the church as for their end , and all their authoritie was given unto them for the church as for the whole : but the authoritie it selfe was immediately derived from christ , and is not in the church as the immediate subject , nor derived from the church , but from christ the king of the church . the authoritie of governors is given of christ for a gift to the church , but not for a gift absolute , that it may reside in the power of the whole church , to whom it is given , but for a conditionall gift communicated to the governors themselves for the good of the whole . it is one thing then to aske for what end or use the keyes are given , another to whom . to every one is given the declaration of the spirit for profit , i. e. for the good of the church . but was this gift given to the communitie of the faithfull first and immediately ? no ; by gift and possession it was given ●o some , but for use and profit it was publick . after the churches were established it tooke not effect ; for then it must be shewed where christ committed the power of god , first to the apostles , and after to the communitie of the faithfull . but that is no where to be found in holy scripture . the ministers and guides of the church were immediately of jesus christ , from whom immediately they derive their power and authoritie , by whom they are set over their charge , in whose name they must execute their office , whose stewards , legates and ambassadors they are , and unto whom they must give an account . yea , pastorship is the gift of christ no lesse then apostleship , and that the more because it is perpetuall in the church ; every pastor is not immediately called , but the office and order of pastors , the calling , authoritie and jurisdiction is immediately from christ , and not from the church : the steward is appointed of the master of the family alone , and hath all his authoritie and jurisdiction from him : every ambassador in the cause of his ambassage doth immediately depend upon him from whom he is sent . but if the function , order and authoritie of pastors and teachers , be immediately from christ , then it is not received from the church as the immediate receptacle . thus protestant divines dispute against papists . if bishops receive their power and authority of exercising immediately from christ , by mandate , mission , and commission from him , then they derive it not from the pope . and if presbyters receive their order jurisdiction and power of execution from christ by his mandate and commission , then they receive it not from the bishop . and by the same reason , if the power of the keyes be the immediate gift of christ to his ministers , then they derive not their power and authoritie from the people . it is usually objected that the church cannot convey what she never had , but the people may elect their pastor . whereunto the answer is direct and plaine . nothing can give that which it had not formally or virtually , unlesse it give it as an instrument ministring to one who hath it , but so it may give what it never had , nor is capable of . a steward may give all the offices in his masters house , as ministerially executing his masters pleasure . electors have not evermore authoritie over him whom they elect : but power and authoritie onely to apply that power to him whom they choose . the power and authoritie whereunto a minister is elected , is not in the people that elect him , but from christ the king and head of his church , who out of power doth conferre that office upon him . if we consider what men give , or give 〈◊〉 universally , it must be deemed that any men can make ministers , because they give not the office , gifts , or authoritie , which are from christ ●●ene . 3. if ecclesiasticall and spirituall power be in the multitude and community of the faithfull , the church doth not onely call , but make officers out of power and vertue received into her selfe , and then should the church have a true lordlike power in regard of her ministers . in the church the officers are the ministers of the people , whose service the people is to use for administration and executing their judgements , that is , pronouncing the judgement of the church ( and of god first ) against the obstinate . rob. against ber. p. 136. the officers in the church are both christs and the peoples servants and ministers . id. p. 165. for as he that will derive authority to the church maketh himselfe lord of the church : so if the church derive authoritie to the ministers of christ , she maketh herself lady and mistris over them in the exercise of that authoritie over them . for all men know it is the property of the lord and master to impart authoritie . did the church give power and authoritie to the pastors and teachers , she might make the sacraments and preaching which one doth in order no sacraments , no preaching . for it is the order instituted of god that gives being and efficacie to these ordinances . and if the power of ruling , feeding , and dispensing the holy things of god , do reside in the faithfull , the word and sacraments in respect of dispensation and efficacie shall depend upon the order and institution of the societie . if the power of the keyes be derived from the community of the faithfull , then are officers immediately and formally servants to the church , and must do every thing in the name of the church , rule , feed , bind , loose , remit and retaine sinnes , preach and administer the sacraments , then they must performe their office according to the direction of the church more or lesse , seldome or frequent , remisse or diligent . for from whom are they to receive direction how to carry themselves in their office but from him or them from whom they receive their office , whose works they do , and from whom they expect their reward ? if their power and office be of god immediately , they must do the duties of their place according to his designement , and to be accountable unto god : but if their power and function be from the church , the church must give account unto god , and the officers unto the church whom she doth take to be her helpers . if it be said that god will have the church to chuse officers to execute the power committed unto her . the answer is , either god will have her elect officers of his designement to do his work according to that power which he shall give them , and by his direction , and then they are gods servants , and not the churches , and receive their charge and function immediately from god , and not from the people : or he leaveth it to the arbitriment of the church , to chuse according to their pleasure such as must receive charge and authoritie from her . and then they must execute their office in her name so as shall seeme good unto the church , and neither longer nor otherwise . for if the ministers of the church be subject to god and christ by the intervention of the people onely , they have it from them , and not from god : but they preach or administer the sacraments , rule , or feed , and if they depend immediately upon the faithfull , viz. two or three gathered together in covenant , they must draw what in order they are to preach unto them in the name of the lord ; for from him must the ambassadour learne his arrand from whom he receiveth his commission . we forbeare to presse the a confessions and reasons of such as maintaine this opinion , that the officers of christ be both of and for the people , and that in relation as the officers are called servants , the church may be called lord. 4. moreover if the power of the keyes be given first and immediately to the community of the faithfull , what reason can be alledged why in defect of officers the church might not rule , governe , feed , bind , loose , preach and administer the sacraments , or if any faile in any office , why she might not supply that want by her power . for the power of the keyes doth containe , both authority and exercise , power being given to this end , that it might be exercised as it is vouchsafed . but the church when she is destitute of officers , cannot exercise those acts of rule , nor by her power supply the want of any officer . onely she hath a ministery of calling one whom christ hath described , that from christ he may have power of office given him in the vacant place . for these reasons ( not to insist on any more ) we judge the multitude or community of the faithfull not to be the immediate receptacle of ecclesiasticall authoritie , and so the power of excommunication not to belong to them . if consent of the churches of god be asked in this point ( to omit others ) the churches of scotland speake fully and expresly for us , in the second book of disci . cap. 1. the church as it is taken for them that exercise spirituall functions in the congregation of them that professe the truth , hath a certain power granted by god according to which , it useth a proper jurisdiction and government exercised to the comfort of the whole flocke . power is an ecclesiasticall authority granted by god the father through the mediator jesus christ unto his kirke , gathered , and having its ground in the word of god , and to be put in execution by them unto whom the spirituall government of the church by lawfull calling is committed . the policie of the kirke flowing from this power is an order or spirituall forme of government which is exercised by the members appointed thereto by the word of god , and therefore is given immediately to the office-bearers by whom it is exercised to the weale of the whole body . vt universam scripturam evolvat d. erastus , nunquam tamen inventurum verba ligandi , & solvendi aliis quam publico ministerio fungentibus , & quidem metaphoricè , divine videlicet & spiritualis potestatis respectu , tribui . sunt enim judi●ialia haec verba . &c. beza de presb ▪ p 60. see helvet . conf . ca. 18. sect. nunc ergo , &c. belgic . confess . art . 3. argentinens . conf . art . 13. bohem. confes . art . 14. vi. position . that none are to be admitted as members but they must promise not to depart or remove unlesse the congregation will give leave . answer . our answer hereto is briefly this . we judge it expedient and most according to rule , that such brethren as are in covenant with the church , and ours as fellow-members , and have committed their soules to our charge as ministers , should not forsake our fellowship , nor obruptly breake away from us when and whither they please ; but first approve themselves therein to their brethrens consciences , and take their counsell in so weightie a matter . for which we propound to consider these two reasons following . the former is drawne from the nature of the church-covenant , which consists in these foure particulars . 1. every member at his admission doth openly professe , and solemnly promise , that by christs helpe assisting , he will not onely in generall give up himselfe ( as to the lord to be guided by him , so ) to the church according to god to be directed by it , which is no more then the members of the church of macedonia , did in a parallel case , 2 cor. 8. 5. but also in particular , that he will performe all duties of brotherly love and faithfulnesse to all the members of the body , as of diligent watchfulnesse over all his brethren , thereby to prevent sin , so of faithfull admonition after their falls to regaine them to the lord , from their sinne , the former being injoyned , hebr. 3. 13. and the want thereof deeply condemned in cain , that would not acknowledge that duty of being his brothers keeper , gen. 4. 9. the latter given in charge to the church-members of israel by the hand of moses , levit. 19. 17. and so by christ himself , matth. 18 15 and by paul also to the galat. c. 6. 1 , 2. secondly , the ingagements are not made onely by the members admitted into the church , but by the church back again to the member . so that thereby the whole church in generall , and every member thereof in particular , stand as well in conscience bound to performe all duties of love and watchfulnesse to him , as he doth to them ; and this we do according to the golden rule of love and equitie injoyned by our saviour , matth. 7. 12. fearing that contrary practise of scribes and pharisees so much condemned by christ , of laying greater burthens upon others , then we our selves are willing to undergo . matth. 23. 4. 3. these promises thus lawfully and mutually made , that member , as also the whole church , are bound not onely every one for himselfe , actively to performe them , but passively also to suffer his brethren to do those offices upon and towards himself : if he neglect the former , he shall falsifie his covenant so solemnly before god , angels , and men made , and so not onely breake promise to his brother , contrary to psal . 15. 4. but also in some sort commit the sinne of ananias and saphira in lying against the holy ghost , condemned and punished severely by gods own hand , act. 5. 3. 5. 10. if he faile in the latter , he shall not onely be guiltie of the same sinne of breach of covenant with god and man as in the former ; but shall also be guilty of this folly of despising counsell so much condemned , prov. 12. 15. and 1. 7. and shall also proclaime this his folly and pride by shewing to all the church that he is wise in his own eyes , and leanes to his own wisedome both reproved , prov. 3. 7. and 23. 4. seeing need of no further light to be held forth by his brethren , then what he apprehends himselfe , which is one of the greatest properties of folly . 4. from all these things premised , it appears that we can do no lesse ( and yet we do no more ) then require a member before he depart according to our covenant thus lawfully , deliberately , and mutually made , to expresse to his brethren his desire of departing , and the place and societie to which he tends , whether to a godly church where he may be edified ; or to some corrupt assembly where he may be destroyed . and 2. his grounds and reasons which move him so to do , which if they hold good being scanned by the word , he may be not onely confirmed in his way by the consent and advise of many , but counselled also how to manage his departure for his best comfort . and so after all , solemnly with the whole churches prayers , and blessings in the name of christ dismissed : but if his grounds either be none at all , or weake and sinfull , and that his desire of departing savours of self-will , inordinate love of gaine , rash precipitancie , or a spirit of schisme , more strongly then of sound reason , then what can we do lesse without breach of covenant , then in love and tendernesse shew him his weaknesse , disswade him from his purpose , and refuse to consent . yet if after all this we see his spirit stedfastly and stiffely bent for a departure , then though we dare not act against our light by consenting or counselling , yet if his sinne be not apparent , and danger eminent , we use rather ( through indulgence in cases of like nature ) to suspend our vote against him , as not willing against his will to detain him , abhorring to make our churches places of restraint and imprisonment . but if any should object that this argument holds firme where this church-covenant is allowed to be lawfull , but with some it is questioned , and with them it avails not . ans . some indeed have questioned the necessitie of our church-covenant , but none ( we hope ) of these our reverend brethren that we write unto do question the lawfulnesse of such a covenant being nothing else for the matter of it , but a promise of doing such christian duties as the gospel of christ requires of all saints in church estate ; for we doe not herein promise to performe any new dutie to our brethren which was not before commanded us of the lord , but onely revive and renew our purposes afresh of performing such duties unto that particular body into which we are then incorporated as were before injoyned in the word , as to love each other , and to watch over each other out of love for their good , to be ready to give counsell to , and to take counsell from each other , to prevent sinne in them , or to gaine them from sinne . all which are plentifully and frequently held forth in the scriptures ; for the defect of which care and watchfulnesse , all the body shall be wrapt in the same guilt & punishment with the member that commits the sinne , as the whole church of israel was in achans sinne and punishment . secondly , it s a thing very reasonable , and a knowne fundamentall rule in all societies , that he that is incorporate thereto , and so participates of the priviledges thereof , should ingage himselfe to conforme to all such lawfull rites and orders as are expedient for the well-being of that societie , the contrary whereto will be a thing injurious in him to offer , and confusion to themselves to accept . the second ground is drawne from the necessitie that may fall upon the body if every particular member should depart at his owne pleasure . for as every societie , so much more a church of saints , both from principles of nature and christianitie also , not onely lawfully may , but in dutie are bound to endeavour the preservation of it selfe , and ergo timely to foresee and wisely to prevent all such things as would bring destruction to it selfe . now if any member might , when , whither , and wherefore he please without consent of the church depart away from it , this may by unavoydable consequence dissipate the whole ; for if one man may so depart , why may not another also , though never so usefull in that body , and whose absence might much shake the well-being of it : and if one why not two , six , ten , twentie as well ? for where will yee stop seeing any may plead the same libertie , and if members may so doe why not the pastor and teacher also ? seeing they are tyed to him by the same relation that he is to them , and so the principalls falling , the whole building must downe : and if this may be so in one church , why not in all , and so christ should have no setled church on earth . reply . it is one thing abruptly to breake away when and whither they please , and forsake fellowship , another thing not to depart or remove habitation , unlesse the congregation will give leave . also it is one thing mutually to compound and agree not to depart from each other without consent and approbation , another to require a promise of all that be admitted into societie , that they shall not depart without the churches allowance . if such a promise be required of all members to be admitted , we cannot discerne upon what grounds your practise is warranted . first , you exclude all such as be not set members from the sacrament of the supper , and their children from baptisme , and yet hinder them from entrance into church societie , because they cannot promise continuance in the place where they are resident for the present . here we desire to be satisfied from the word of god by what you require it . did the apostles ever stipulate with such as desired to be baptized , that they must abide in particular societie , and not remove thence without approbation from the church ? or did they deny the seales unto them , because they could not make any such promise ? was it ever heard of in the church of god from the beginning thereof unto this day , that any such thing was propounded unto , or required of , members to be admitted into church-fellowship ? that church covenant which is necessary was not in use in the apostles times , but the covenant they entred into bound no man to this condition for ought we reade . they did not prescribe it , no church ever yet covenanted it as necessary to the preservation of the body . secondly , it pertaines not to the whole congregation to take notice of , be acquainted with , or judge of the cause of every particular members removall . may not a servant remove from his master to another congregation ? or the father bestow his sonne or daughter in marriage to one of another congregation , but the whole church must be called to counsell in this matter ? if the assembly once grow to be populous , of necessitie they must be negligent in , or weary of such an heavy taske ; and for the present , for every one to challenge so much authoritie over other is usurpation . let it be shewed that ever by divine right this power was committed to the church , and then we will confesse it to be expedient and necessary . but till then we thinke the church is over ridged in exacting such a condition of the members , and the members themselves goe beyond their measure as busi-bodies in other mens matters , and things whereof they are not well able to judge many times , if they arrogate such power unto themselves wee allow not rashnesse , or precipitancy , pride or self-conceitednesse , we know it is meete that weightie matters should be mannaged by councell , but it is not necessary to bring every particular thing to the whole church . in the multitude of councellors there is peace , but over many councellors oft causeth distraction , and different apprehensions breed delayes . the nature of your church-covenant , as you describe it , inferreth not a necessitie of bringing every such businesse unto the church ; for you binde your selves mutually to watch over one another , and in love to admonish one another in the lord , to prevent sinne and to encourage in well-doing , as it concerneth every man within the limits of his place and calling . but this essentially tyeth not any man to a perpetuall residence in one place , for then even occasionall absence should be a breach of covenant , unlesse it be by consent and approbation of the church . you say in your covenant you promise to performe no new dutie to your brethren which was not before commanded of the lord , but onely revive and renew your purposes afresh of performing such duties to that particular body into which you are then to be incorporated , as were before injoyned in the word . but in the word of truth , it is not commanded either expresly or by consequent , that no member of a congregation should remove , or occasionally be absent from the place of his habitation , before he have acquainted the church whither he goeth , and upon what occasions , and whether the place be dangerous , where he is likely to be infected ; or safe , where he may be edified . these things are matters of weight and to be undertaken with advice , but the knowledge thereof belongeth not to every particular member of the societie . and the church shall burden her selfe above measure if she take upon her to intermeddle in all such occasions . neither is it safe to commit the determination of such matters ever to the vote of the multitude , or weight of reasons , as they shall apprehend the matter . and if such businesse must be determined on the lords day , and to goe before the administration of the word , sacraments , and almes , least the holy things be polluted by notorious obstinate offenders , wee feare the time appointed for the exercise of religion shall be prophaned with unseasonable disputes . instances might be alledged , if it were a matter to be insisted upon . as for the covenant it selfe which you mutually enter into , if therein you exact nothing but what god requires both for tryall and stipulation , far be it that we should disallow it , but if yee constraine men to meddle with things that belong not to them , and winde them up higher then god would , and straine every thing to the pitch that you seeme here to doe in this branch a godly and sober minde may well pause before he make such promise . all members of the church are not equally necessary to the preservatiō of the whole body ; & if to the removall of some , it were expedient to have the cōsent , not only of the whole society , but of neighbouring societies , ministers especially , it is very much to draw this to the removall or abode of every particular member . and if any man shall not intermeddle with every businesse of this kinde , as questioning whether it doth belong to him or no , or not aske the advice of the whole societie , as knowing the most to be unfit to counsell in such a case , doth he break his covenant therein , and so commit a sinne in a sort like the sinne of ananias and saphira ? judge your selves if in other cases you would not censure this to be an high incroachment upon christian libertie , and a strict binding of mens consciences by humane constitutions . may you not expect to heare from your own grounds that herein you have devised an expedient , or necessary rite or custome to preserve the unitie , and prevent the dissolution of the body , which never came into the minde of the lord jesus , the saviour of the church , and that in so doing ( if your exposition will hold good ) you breake the second commandement . rites and customes expedient to prevent confusion for the time , let them be observed as customes expedient , and what god requires in the examination or admission of members , let that take place according to the presidents given in the scriptures , and the constant practise of the universall church in the purest times . but to presse customes onely expedient for the time , as standing rules necessary at all times , and for all persons , to put that authoritie into the hands of men which god never put upon them , to oblige men to intermeddle further in the affaires of men , then the word doth warrant , to binde the conscience , and that under so heavy a penalty as the sinne of ananias and saphira , where god hath not bound it , and to debarre known and approved christians from the seales of the covenant , because they cannot promise as setled members to abide and stay in the societie , unlesse they shall obtaine leave of the congregation to depart , and to charge them in the meane season to be men , who against light refuse subjection to the gospel ; this is that which we cannot approve , which yet wee suspect will follow from your judgement , and desire to be resolved of in your practise . and here we intreat leave to put you in minde of that which you have considered already , schil . that the church and every member thereof hath entred into covenant , either expresly or implicitely to take god for their god , and to keepe the words of the covenant and doe them , to seeke the lord with all their hearts , and to walke before him in truth and uprightnesse : but we never finde that they were called to give account of the worke of grace wrought in their soules , or that the whole congregation were appointed to be judge thereof . you stand all of you this day ( saith moses ) before the lord your god , &c. that thou shouldst enter into covenant with the lord thy god. all the people that were borne in the wildernesse joshua circumcised , but it is incredible to thinke that among that great multitude , there was not one who did not give good testimony of the worke of grace in his soule : we reade often times that israel after some grievous fall and revolt , renewed their covenant , to walke with god , to serve him onely , and to obey his voyce , as in the dayes of joshua , the judges , david , samuel : also joash , josiah , and nehemiah , &c. but no particular enquiry was made , what worke of grace god had wrought in the hearts of every singular person . but the confession and profession of obedience was taken . when john baptist began to preach the gospel , and gather a new people for christ , he admitted none to baptisme but upon confession of their sinnes ; but we reade of no question that he put forth unto them to discover the worke of grace in their soules , or repelled any that voluntarily submitted themselves upon that pretence . it appeareth many wayes that when the apostles planted churches , they made a covenant between god and the people whom they received . but they received men upon the profession of faith , and promise of amendment of life , without strict inquirie what sound work of grace was wrought in the soul . in after ages , strangers from the covenant were first instructed in the faith , and then baptised upon the profession of faith , and promise to walk according to the covenant of grace . now the profession at first required of all that were received to baptisme was that they beleeved in the father , sonne , and holy ghost . this was the confession of the eunuch when he was baptised , i beleeve that jesus christ is the sonne of god. the creed is honoured of the ancients with glorious titles , as the rule of faith , the summe of faith , the body of faith , the perswasions of faith : but by the creed they understand that rule of faith , and law of faith , and institution of christ which was then given when he was about to ascend into heaven , and commanded his disciples , saying , go teach all nations , &c. it is true , that in after times as occasion required some other articles were added as explanations of the former , to meet with the heresies of the times which began to trouble the church . but for substance of matter in things to be beleeved , the church never required other acknowledgement of them that were to be received into the congregation of christs flock , and admitted into her communion . and for things to be done , or the practicall part , she requireth of them that were to be received to baptisme an abrenuntiation of the devill , the world , and the flesh , with all their sinfull works and lusts . the first principles then of the doctrine of christ being received , and the foresaid profession being made , the apostles , and the church following the example of the apostles , never denied baptisme unto such as sought or desired it . if this be the covenant that members admitted into church-fellowship do enter into , and this be all you require of them whom you receive , you have the practise of the apostles , and the whole church in after ages for your president . but if you proceed further then thus , and put men to declare what worke of grace god hath wrought in their soul , in this or that way , which perhaps is not determined by the word of grace , at least not agreed upon among your selves , we beseech you consider by what authority you do it , and upon what grounds you stand . but we will enter no further upon this matter , because it comes not within the compasse of these positions , and to attribute so much to private letters , as to make them the ground of another dispute we may not . vii . position . that a minister is so a minister of a particular congregation , that if they dislike him unjustly , or leave him , he ceaseth to be a minister . answer . our answer to this consists in two branches . 1. in case a minister be set aside by the church meerly through his own default . 2. by the churches default without any desert of his . in the former case it is evident he ceaseth to be a minister to them any longer , as appears in foure conclusions . 1. it is cleare from the word , that a pastor or teacher in these dayes hath no apostolicall power over all churches , but onely limited to that one church where god hath set him . paul gives not the elders at ephesus a generall commission to go teach all churches , but to go feed that one flock over which the holy ghost hath made them over-seers . act. 20. 28. so peter gives direction to elders to feed that flock of god onely which was among them , and take the over-sight thereof . 1 pet. 5. 2. 2. it is as cleare that all this power of feeding which the minister hath in that church is nextly derived to him from christ by the church , who hath solemnly called him to the work , and promised to obey him therein : for if he have it elsewhere , it must be either from christ immediately , or from some other men deputed by christ to conferre it on him , or he must take it up of himselfe . not the first , for that was proper to the apostles or apostolicall men , therefore paul proving his apostleship , saith he was called not of men , nor by men , but by jesus christ himself . gal. 1. 1. not the second , for we never read in gods word that any ordinary officers , or other besides the church , that had any commission given them from christ to call ministers unto churches . not the third , for no man taketh this honour , viz. of a priest under the law , or of a minister under the gospel , but he that is called of god , hebr. 5. 4. therefore it must needs be from christ by the church . 3. as the church in the name of christ gave this power to a minister to be what he is , and do what he doth amongst them : when such a minister shall make and manifest himself apparently , unworthy , and unfit to discharge the place , which they thus called him unto , so that they may discerne that christ the head of the church hath refused him , from being a minister unto him . they may then upon as good grounds depose him from it , as they called him to it . 4. when a church hath thus in christs name put forth this power of shutting , as before it did of opening to a minister , then he must cease to be a minister unto them any more , for we know no such indelible character imprinted upon a minister , that the ministery ceasing , the minister ceaseth also . 2. in case the church shall without cause , or sufficient weightie cause , rashly or wilfully set him aside whom christ hath set over them , and whom they so solemnly called , and promised before the lord to submit unto , and so abuse their power given them by christ ; it is deubtlesse a very great wrong unto the minister , and sinne against christ himselfe before whom it was done ; and not onely christ himself will take it ill at their hands , for such contempt done to him in his ministers according to christs speech , luke 10. 16. he that rejecteth you , rejecteth me . and gods speech , 1 sam. 8. 7. they have not cast off thee but me . but even other churches also may admonish them . and if they prove obstinate therein , withdraw the right hand of fellowship from them ; and concerning the minister himself thus deposed , seeing it is done not by christ , but by the church without christ , yea against the mind of christ , we conceive though he be by them deprived of the execution of his ministery among them , yet untill he accepts of a call to another people , he doth yet still remain a minister of christ , in whose account ( notwithstanding such deposition ) he hath true right of administration among that people . reply . the question is of ministers unjustly forsaken , or driven from the church or congregation : and your answer is for the most part of ministers set aside or deprived through their own default . we never purposed to speak one word for any unworthy minister whom christ hath put out of office , and therefore your labour to prove that such justly rejected by the church are no longer ministers might well have been saved . but setting them aside , we will in few words examine your conclusions upon which you bind the certainty of that sentence you passe against them . first , it is certain and clear from the word , that a pastor or teacher neither in these dayes hath , nor in any other age of the church , ought to have apostolicall power over all churches . the apostles had onely power to serve the church with the personall service of their apostleship . but pastorall power of ordinarie ministers or teachers they never had : and if the apostles had not the power of ordinarie ministers , much lesse can pastors receive the power of apostles , for christ gave both the one and the other order . but as the apostles were not pastors of that church to which they preached , and among whom they continued for some space ; no more do pastors become apostles if they preach the word , or dispence the sacraments to another flock or people beside their own , whereof they have the speciall oversight . but of this matter we have spoken before , and of the texts of scripture here alledged , therefore we will not repeat what hath been said alreadie : onely it seemeth somewhat strange , that you should cited those texts of scripture , as if the apostle had said , feed one flock , or feed that flock of god onely . for we find the word ( one ) or ( onely ) neither in the text expresly , nor in the sense for which it is here alledged , viz. as if he might not perform any ministeriall act in another congregation upon any occasion whatsoever . secondly , the power of feeding which the minister hath is neither confined to one societie onely , nor nextly derived to him from christ by the church . the office and authoritie of a pastor is immediately from christ . the deputation of the person which christ hath designed is from the church ministerially , but neither virtually nor formally . the consent of the people is requisite in the election of pastors and teachers we grant , the direction of the elders going before or along with them ; but the authoritie , office , and gift of a pastor is not from the people or elders , but from christ alone . when an apostle was to be chosen in the place of judas , act. 1. 22 , 23. no one had the handling of that businesse , but peter declared unto the brethren present , what an one ought to be taken , and they present two , whereof one was elected by lot . in this example somethings are extraordinarie , for one onely was to be chosen , and that immediately by god himselfe : and somethings ordinarie for our imitation . for if peter would do nothing without consent of the disciples , then may not ordinarie elections be passed without consent and approbation of the church , but it is not a popular election , not governed by the fore-direction of elders , which is concluded from this passage of scripture : but a church election by the free consent , and judgement of the faithfull with the fore-leading of the presbyterie . when deacons were to be chosen , act. 6. 1. 6. in the church of jerusalem , it was done by the consent of the church . the mutinie of the hellenists against the hebrews occasioned that election , but was no cause why it was made by free consent . the apostles shew what persons must be chosen , and who ever thought the church was left at libertie to chuse as she please without direction . but in this election the people did first chuse , the apostles onely directing whom the people ought to make choice of : when most commonly the apostles instructed the people , and went before them in the election , and they consented . act. 14. 23. the apostles by consent chose elders , and so in every matter of great importance belonging directly to the whole bodie of the church , whether severally in one congregation , or joyntly in many , the consent of the faithfull by observation of the apostles was required . act. 11. 22. and 15. 22. and 16. 4. 1. cor. 8. 19. but in the primitive times after the apostles , one church might elect and chuse a pastor for another . as ignatius exhorts the phyladelphians , that they would elect a pastor for the church of antioch . and so when the east church was infected with arrianisme , basil , epist . 69. 70. 74. though it a fit meanes to remove the heresie , if the bishops of italie being sent thither did condemne the heresie , and he imploreth the aid of the bishops of italy , france , and all the east . cyprian saith , all bishops sunt mutuae concordiae glutine copulati : that if any hold heresie the rest should help . it would be too long to reckon up examples which in this case might be produced . if here it be questioned whether your election of the people be essentiall to the calling of a minister : we answer . 1. a thing is essentiall two wayes . first , as absolutely necessarie , so that the thing can have no existence without it . secondly , as necessarie to the integritie of the thing , so that it is maimed without it . againe , either the people be few in number , and simple apt to be led aside , unable to judge of the sufficiencie of their minister , or they be more in number , increased in wisdome , sound in faith , and able to discern betwixt things that differ . in the first sense the election of the people is not necessary or essentiall ; but in the second we cannot say he is no minister that is not chosen by the people , but his calling in that respect is maimed . if the people be few and simple , apt to be deceived , they stand in more need of guidance and direction , both from their own elders , and other churches . if the people be many in number , full of wisdome and understanding , their libertie to choose is the greater ; and it is the greater wrong to be deprived of it . the practise of the apostles and the primitive churches for many ages will confirme this ; for sometimes men were propounded to the church to be chosen : sometimes the choice was wholly left to them : and was not that for our direction , that more libertie is given where the danger is lesse , and more restraint and caution used where the danger is more apparent , that if they be left to themselves , either an ill or unfit choice will be made ? in reason this is evident , for the childs consent is required in marriage , but the more able he is to choose for himselfe , the more libertie may parents grant , the lesse able , the more watchfull must they be ; and so in this businesse . brotherly societie requires that we mutually exhort , admonish , reprove and comfort each other as occasion requires , and as need requires . it is a dutie of neighbour-churches to lend their helpe to their brethren in the choice and election of their minister . when the scripture willeth that one should admonish another , it is not onely a command to every singular man towards his fellow , but also to any whole company too : another societie bellarmine asketh , quo jure unus populus episcopum alterius populi elegere potest ? junius answereth ; certe charitatis jure & communione sanctorum . and paul when he teacheth that all the faithfull are members of one mysticall body of christ , who ought to have a mutuall care one of another , laid the foundation of this policie . it is a blemish in the calling of a minister , if either the people be not fit to choose , or being fit they be shut forth from the choice , but this maime doth not make a nullicie in his calling ; for in every true church where the word is preached and received , and the sacraments for substance rightly administred , there is a true and lawfull ministery , and a true and lawfull calling of that ministery , though in some things defective . in the church of god all sound and saving truth is to be found , for it is the pillar and ground of truth , and where the true profession of all saving truth , with the right use of the sacraments for substance is to be found , there is the church , which ordinarily cannot be had , maintained and continued without a lawfull ministery , nor that without a calling . the saving truth of god & a lawfull ministery , are both essentiall to a true church . something of this remaines in every compleat societie that hath any thing of the church ; and for essence and substance they are true in every true , lawfull , compleat societie . the profession of the truth may be true and sound in all necessary and fundamentall points , though mixed with diverse errors , and the ministery for truth and substance lawfull , though many wayes deficient . in the true church there is a true ministery , but the true church hath continued there by the blessing of god , where the election of ministers hath been given away by the people , or taken from them . in the primitive church , when the people had a voyce in the choice of their pastor , oftentimes there were factions in the church , the people stood against their guides and challenged the whole power of election to themselves . sometimes they were divided among themselves . sometimes they gave away their power , at least in part , and sometimes ministers were set over them without their councell and advice , whose ministery notwithstanding was not reputed voyde and of none effect . if it be objected that many things were amisse in those primitive elections , what will follow thence , but that the ministery may be lawfull and good , where there be many wants in the manner of calling . if this be not granted , what shall be done when the people and their elders be divided in the choice of a fit officer . if the people prevaile against their elders , he whom they choose is no minister to them , because not chosen by their suffrages : if the elders against the people , he whom they approve is no minister unto them , because not chosen by their suffrage ; and so if there be dissention they must seperate from , or excommunicate one another , because he is no minister to the one whom the other approve . the orthodox pastors did professe , so that the donatists would returne to the true and apostolicall doctrine , they would not disallow their bishops , that they might understand that catholiques did not detest christian consecration ( as augustine speakes ) by humane error . the high priesthood was bought and sold for money , and sometimes made annuall , and every yeare new high priests created , sicut isti praefecti quos singulis annis promutant reges , as sol : jarchi saith . that as every man would lay out more or lesse money , he should get or lose the priesthood , which may be seene in the examples of jason or menelaus . neverthelesse , so long as the jewes continued the true church of god , the priesthood was true also . the reformed churches who have seperated from the abhominations of rome , professe the first reformers among them received some ordinary calling in the romane synagogue . they that thinke the basest of rome , will acknowledge baptisme unduely administred by priests or jesuites , to be for substance the holy sacrament of christ . and if the baptisme of god may be derived from the ministery , it is no absurditie to thinke that the first seekers of reformation derived authoritie from christ to preach the word and administer the sacraments by them , as stewards used of god to set them in that office : for the seekers of reformation derived their authoritie from god , and that which is instituted by christ , is not made voyde by the corruptions of men . the third and fourth consideration we will passe over , because from what hath been spoken , it is easie to understand in what sense they may be admitted , and in what denyed , and we have no desire to trouble you with the examination of that which falleth not into question . as for the second branch of your answer , that in case the church shall without cause , or without sufficient weightie cause , rashly or wilfully set him aside whom christ hath set over them , yet he still remaines a minister of christ ( untill he accepts of a call from another people ) in whose account , notwithstanding such depositions , he hath true right of administring among that people . we know not well your meaning ; if this be your minde that a minister lawfully called and set over one congregation , is to be esteemed a minister in the usuall church , as the particular church hath unitie with , and is part of the universall or catholique : and as a partie baptized is not baptized into that particular congregation onely , but into all churches ; and that the ministery is one , cujus à singulis in soliaum pars tenetur , as cyprian speakes ; and therefore though the minister be unjustly cast off by one congregation , yet he is not to be esteemed as no minister , we freely consent . but if your meaning be that he is onely by right a minister of that particular congregation , because unjustly deposed , as formerly in the execution of his office he was a minister to them onely , and to none other societie whatsoever , or in what respect soever ; your opinion is contrary to the judgement and practise of the universall church , and tendeth to destroy the unitie of the church , and that communion which the churches of god may and ought to have one with another ; for if he be not a minister in other churches , then are not the churches of god one , nor the ministers one , nor the flocke which they feed one , nor the communion one which they have each with other . and if the pastor derive all his authoritie to feede from the church , when the church hath set him aside , what right hath he to administer among that people . if they erre in their deposition , it is true they sinne against christ . but as they give right to an unworthy man to administer among them , if they call him unjustly , so they take right from the worthy if wrongfully they depose him . the minister is for his ministery the office for the execution , and so the pastor and the flocke are relatives : and therefore if their election gave him authoritie among them to feed , their casting him off hath stripped him of the same power which formerly they gave him . and his ministery ceasing , he should cease to be their minister , if he stood as minister onely to that congregation in every respect . whit. de pont . q. 4. sec. 10. pa. 559. certe lex naturae & ratio clamitat cujus est instituere ejus est destruere , sive destituere , ad quem institutio pertinet ad eundem destitutionem , seu destructionem pertinere . rob. aga . b. p. 214. if the congregation may chuse and elect their governours , then they may refuse and reprobate them . viii . position . that one minister cannot performe any ministeriall act in another congregation . answer . if you take ministeriall act improperly as sometimes it is taken by some , onely when the minister of one church doth exercise his gifts of praying and preaching in another church , being by themselves so desired . then we answer , in this sense a minister of one church may do a ministeriall act in another , which he doth not perform by vertue of any calling , but onely by his gifts ; and thus upon any occasion we mutually perform those acts one in anothers churches : but if you meane by ministeriall act , such an act of authoritie and power in dispensing of gods ordinance as a minister doth perform to the church , whereunto he is called to be a minister ; then we deny that he can so perform any ministeriall act to any other church but his own , because his office extends no further then his call . for that solemne charge , act. 20. 28. is not to feed all flocks , but that one flock onely , over which the holy ghost hath made them over-seers . if the question were propounded to any minister so exercising in an others church , which was once to our saviour by the chief priests and elders : by what power doest thou these things , and who gave thee this authoritie ? let that minister whosoever he be , study how to make an answer . reply . the preaching of the word , publick prayer in the congregation met together solemnly to worship god , and the administration of the sacraments , are acts properly ministeriall ( if any other ) to be performed by power and authoritie from christ , as you acknowledge , for the preaching of the word , and dispensation of the seales in your second consideration . but these acts one minister may performe in another congregation , or towards the members of another church . you know by whom your question hath been propounded touching one ministers exercising in another ministers church , and how it hath been answered ; and if you see more light and truth then formerly , we would desire you substantially to confute what answers some of you have returned to that demand . to admit ( saith mr. j. d. ) those that are known members of another church to communion in the sacraments upon fitting occasions i hold lawfull , and do professe my readinesse to practise accordingly . again , i conceive that ( besides my membership else where , and the right which those churches give to known passants of being admitted to the communion for a short time ) both himself and the whole church acknowledge me for a member with them for the time of my abode in that service , which they testified by desiring the help of my publick labours , and their cheerfull admittance of me to that ordinance during that time without the least scruple . and if a minister may pray , preach , blesse the congregation in the name of the lord , and receive the sacrament with them , being thereunto requested ; we doubt not but by consent of the pastor and the congregation he may lawfully dispense the seals amongst them also as need and occasion requires . that distinction of preaching by office , and exercising his gifts onely , when it is done by a minister , and desired of none but ministers , and that in solemne , set , constant church-assemblies , we cannot find warranted in the word of truth , and therefore we dare not receive it . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a63200-e680 it is truly observed by master davenport out of an. bros . offic. l 1. c. 1 et quantum libet quisque profecerit , 〈◊〉 est qui doceri non indige●● d●m vivit . appoll . preface to the reader . were not these men ( saith cann against robin ) superstitiously addicted to their new devise , that beware how to reject the unanimous judgment and practice of all learned men and true churches . stay against straying . pag. 47. i am and shall be always ready to give all due respect to those good customes of churches , which are taken upon good warrant and ground , and long continued among gods people . i. d. apol p. 31. good customes taken up by the churches upon good grounds should not lightly be broken or laid downe , wherein i doe fully agree with the authour of that elaborate commentary upon the fourth chapter of iohn , i. d. apol. sect. 12. examina . p. 151. notes for div a63200-e1030 this argument is used by the abridgment against conformity to the ceremonies , and we do not see but it is as strong against this liturgy . whereas the publisher of this answer to the six positions , refers the reader to mr. cottons answer unto mr. ball for satisfaction in this point concerning set formes of prayer . the reader is earnestly intreated to compare master balls treatise , and mr. cottons answer with seriousnesse and indifferencie , because mr ball having received that answer before the publishing of his treatise ( being much enlarged , whereof mr , cotton was ignorant ) was confident , that with addition of some marginall notes ( which in reference thereto he added ) his treatise would sufficiently defend it selfe , against all the assaults , which that answer made against it . notes for div a63200-e1840 we may not communicate at all in that ministery , which is exercised by an unlawfull person or in an unlawful . place robinson against bern. counsell debated p 17 ibid pag 79. esa . 56. 10. ezech 41. 7 , 8. mic. 3. 11 , 12. ier. 5. 31. esa . 9. 15 , 6. ioh. 2. 16. math 5. 20 , 21. & 15. 4 , 5. & 23 1 — 3 ▪ 14. math. 16 6. 12. & 15. 14. see whitak de pontif . q. 4. f 10. pag. 557. phil. 1. 15. h●s . 4 6 , 7. 1 sam. 2. 12 , 13 , 14 , 17 , 24. ier 8. 8 , 9. mic 3. 11 , 12. phil. 1. 15. helv cons . cap. 18 § 11. & 19 §. 9 , gal. conf . art . 28. arg. conf . art. 13 saxon. conf . art. 12 zep de sa● l. 2. c. 6. art. of religion , hybern . art. 70 carlton praelect de ecclesia , cap. 20. beza de presbyt . et excōmunicat . p. 25 26. ista vero , quia nonnulli à sacris caetib . & sacrament . usu propter aliorum vitia ultro abstinent i. e. seipsos excommunicant magnam reprehensionem merentur . we see no warrant why for every particular act , that in a larger sence is idolatrous , adjoyned to gods true worship , we should forbeare our presence at the true worship it self . unreason . of seperation . answ to 6. argument . compare what master i. d. hath written in defence or excuse in resorting to the assemb . of the separatists , called brownists . apol. sect. 5. exam . p. 61. & apol. sect. 28 exam . pag. 246. notes for div a63200-e2560 rom. 16 16. 1 cor. 11 16. & 14. 33. rom 16. 4. gal ● . 22. 1 thess . 2. 14. 1 cor 16 ▪ 19. gal. 5. 2. act 15 ▪ 2. & 19 37 & 15. 25. 38. eph. 4. 4 , 5. acts 2. 38. 41. gen 1. 10. math. 28. 14 20. robins . against bern. reas . discus . pa. 77. lev 2. 13. deut. 29. 12. & 16. 17. 18. rom. 3. 2 deut. 4. 6. psa . 247 19 20 neh. 9. 13. act. 7. 38. luk. 16. 29 2 cor 5 19 & 114. deut 33. 3. io. 8. 30 robin against bern p 15. act. 14 22. tit. 1 5. rob : against bern. act 11 26. la the same verse the some persons are called the church disciples , and christians pag. 126. 127. 211 &c. fo pag. 51 ezeck . 46. 10 see lavater on ezek math 18. 20. ier. 14. 9. ios. 24. 14 rom. 10. 14 ▪ act 2. 42 as christ is that one great pastor , so hath hee generally one fold and flock , iohn 10. 16. ezeck . 34 22. 23 which is his church , as he saith . and ye my flock , the flock of my pasture are men , ezek. 34. 31. aynsw . cant 1. 8. sure it is that hee is none of christs sheepe visibly , or in respect of men which is without christs sheepfold , for there is one sheepfold and one sheepheard . iohn 10. 16. robins against bern likelihoods , p. 61. hieron . tom . 2. ep. 85. nec altera roma urbis ecclesia , altera totius orbis existimanda est , & gallia , & britannia , & asia , &c. & omnes barbarae nationes unum christum adorant , unam observant regulam veritatis . 1 cor 12 28. col. 1. 2● . 1 cor. 12 , 13. 1 cor. 15 9. gal. 1. 13. phil. 3. 6. 1 tim. 3. 15. 1 pet. 5. 2. pastores sunt omnes , sed grex unus qui ab apostolis omnibus unanimi consensu pascatur . cypr. de unitate ecclesiae . et si pastores multi sumus , unum tamen gregem pascimus , cypr. l. 3. epistola 13. cum sit a christo una ecclesia per totum mundum in multa membra divisa item episcopatus unus episcoporum multorum concordi numero diffusus , &c. cypr. l. 4. ep. 7. iohn 9. 22. 35. & 12. 42 & 16. 2. athanasius may be for an example . gen. 17. 7. lev. 26. 12. apo. 1. 11. 13. heb. 16. 10. rob. against bern. pa. 127. rom. 4. 12. 18. gen. 12. 3. gal. 3 6 , 7 , 8 , 15 , 16 , 17 rob. against ber. pa. 222. see mr. i. d. apol. 11. sect. exam p. 117. i. d. apol. 5. sect. ex●m . pag. 61 , & 18. bucer . diff . ep . 3. pa. 43. & ep 48. pa. 226. act. 8. 6. & 15 4. act. 8. 12. 14. & 18. 12. acts 2. 41. & 4. 4. & 5 14. & 6. 1. & 6. 7 ezra . 2. 36 , 37 , 38. act. 6. 2 & 8. 1. 15. 2 , 4 , 6 , 22 , 23 & 16. 4. & 21. 18. 18. act. 11. 21. act. 11 24 25 act. 13 12 et 14 27 et 15. 30. 34 , 35. acts 19 10. & 16. 9. & 19. 27. acts 19. 19. robinson against bern p. 196. euseb hist l. 6. c. 35. lat 43. graec. 33. ruff. ●hit de sacra contr . de bapt . qu 2 & 3. pag 237 , 238. atters . of the sacr : l. 2. c. 6 fol. 211. 〈◊〉 de presbyt . pag. 79. act. 14 23. col. 4. 17 1 pet 5. 2 act 20. 28. ioh. 4. 2. & 23 23. mark. 9. 15. act 17 22 23 32. & 19. 8. 9 rob. against bern. p 151 these keyes in d. &c. in the corporation ( the church ) there is alwayes the whole power of christ to residing , which you may call officers for the use of it selfe , to which it is sufficient that it can without officers use this power for things simply necessary ; as for receiving in of members by profession of faith and confession of sins , for edifying of them by exhortation and comforts in the ordinance of prophesying , and so for excommunication . rob. against b. pag. 224. see rob. against ber. pag. 130. 131. 132. if you call it consultation in an assembly wherein all have equall power and voyce in determining things some one going before the rest idem pag. 202 robins . against bern. coun. debated , p. 32. ibid. p. 79. 1 cor. 11 28. 2 cor. 23. 5. beza de presbyt . & excom . pag. 32 robins . against bern. pag. 252. acts. 20 28 the word of god and cano is of councels will have pastors so to care for their own flock , that they forbid them not to care for the whole church , especially in a time of common combustion . the answer of some brethren . pag. 1● . publica dei invocatio non minima pars communis in unâ fide consensionis . beza contra erastum , de presbyt pap . 13. euseb hist . 5. c. 26. graec. chami●● . panst . ●om 2. l. 10. c. 8. sect. 16. the churches plea , pag 44. apol. pag. 117 & ●98 . orig. in isa . hom. 6. qui vocatur ad episcopatum , vocatur ad servitutem totius ecclesiae . chrysost . in 2 cor. hom . 18. vniversae curam gerimus . see cham panstr . tom. 2. pag. 10. cap. 12. sect. 8 , 9 , 10. &c. jun. animadv . in bellar. contro . 5. lib. 1. c. 3. not . 3. & cap. 7 not . 7. act. 13. 15. rom. 16 3 12. phil. 2. 15 , 16. & 4. ● . iam 5. 19 , 20. act. 4. 16. 40 & 9 38. & 10. 5. & 11 19. 21 1 cor. 14. 23 , 24. esay 2. 3. eza 8. 23. io. 1. 41. 45. & 42. 9. & 12. 20. revel . 3. 9 what example have you but grounds for the baptising of infants ? or where read you of any officer excommunicated by any rob. against ber. p. 214. we may not expect examples of any pastors in scriptures : who did thus . i. d. apol. 9. sect. exam . p. 103. see i. d. apol. texts . exam pa. 288. exod 12 48. exod. 44 7. col 2. 1 1 , 12. erast so objects against bern-sicut a circumcisione ad baptismum argumentamur ut probemus infantes esse baptizandos , ita etiam licet ab agno paschatis ad coenam domini , &c. whereto hee truly replyeth . ego vero , non nego licere &c. at non temere & universaliter . beza contra erast . pag. 23. lev. 12. 2. 3. & 22. 27 exo. 22. 30 , eph. 2 ▪ 15. etiam si daremus nullam legi ab apostolis excommunicationem non tamen sequeretur ita esse , quum satis constet non omnium singularia apostolorum gesta perscripta fuisse . bez. de presb. p. 7. et si de melchizedeck & iobo quae huc adferuntur non sunt extra controversiam . nam foedere cum abra. inito non excluduntur ij qui ante erant in foedere sed accensentur foederi . ita autem se habuit melchizedeck , &c. omnino enim consors promissionis divinae fuit ante foedus cum eo initum . gen. 17. job vero & credens fuit promissionibus foederis & de sententia veterum fuit circumcisus etiam haereditariâ circumcisione a paterno maternoque sanguine . vt elegantèr scribit author libri de verâ circumcisione qui hieron . ad scribitur . iun. animadv . in bellar . contrav . 4. lib. 3. cha . 16. not . 13. io. d. exam of tents p 309. mat. 3. 7. io 4 2. act. 2 37. 38. 41. & 8 37. & 10. 47. 48. 1. cor. 5. 12. 1. joh. 2. 19. 1. cor. 11. 19. rev. 22. 15. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 1. tim. 3. 7. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , & script . ethnici apud patres audiunt . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . matth. 8. 1● . ephes . 2. 12. rob. against ber. p. 101. * mr. io. d. apol. sect. 40. exam . p. 182. what though this inconvenience do arise sometimes through mans corruption it should be otherwise ; and we must ever consider of the nature of gods ordinances in their right use , &c. rob. against ber. pa. 213. respondit caam nullam fuisse cur io. bapt. istos accedentes rejiceret ut qui ad ejus bapt . venirent cum peccatorum agnitione nec ipse potestatem haberet eos excommunicandi etiamsi fuissent excom . digni . beza de presb. p 23. recte sane quis illos à sacris prohibuerat , &c. etsi sit tam sceleratus quispiam quam esse existimatur tum si tale judicium sibi quisque sumat quae mox fuerit ecclesie facies ? sed preterea tenendum est istud in hoc negotio inita cujuspiam cons . non probabillas rectam alterius consciam . id. pa. 26. id in privatorum arbitrio relinquere ut alibi diximus & periculosum nimis & toti ecclesiae valde damnosum fuisset . id. p. 80. demonstr . of disc . ca. 4. rob. against bern. likely veiwed . p. 40. john 4. 2. math. 28. 19. 1 cor. 14. 34 , 35. tit. 2. 11 , 12. rob. ag . ber. pa. 206. rob. ag . bern. pa. 239. matth. 3. 6 , 7. ioh. 4. 2. and 3. 22. matt. 28. 19. 20. act. 2. 37 , 38. act. 8. 12. act. 8. 47. & 11. 16. 17. act. 8. 37. act. 10. 47. and 11. 16. 17. act. 9. 18. act. 16 , 14. 33. 1. cor. 1. 17. matth. 28. 19. act. 2. 41. and 8. 12 , 13 , 37. helv. conf . c. 20. gallic . sect. 35. anglic. & ab eo neminem qui velit profiteri nomen christi ne infantes quidem christianorum hominum , &c. scot. conf . c. 23. belgic . act . 34 zengerm . conf . de bapt. infant . pro. 44. argent . conf . ca. 17. saxon. confes . ca. 14. palab . conf . sect. ad usum vero ipsum , &c. rob. against ber. pa. 92. matth. 28. 19. act. 2. 41. & 8. 12 13. 37. and 10. 47. and 2. 39. 1 cor. 7. 19. act. 8. 27. act. 4. 15. joh 4 , 2 , 3. & 3. 27. act. 10. 48. whit. de sacra . q. 3. de bap. cap. 2. pa 260. act. 8. 12. & 9. 18. 1 cor. 1. 17. against b. pa. 88. see j. d. ap. sect. 12. pa. 152 , 153 , 154. deut. 30. 6. rom. 10. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9. rom. 4. 11. gen. 17. 11 , 12 and 26. 4. act 2. 38. gal. 3. 26. 27. tit. 3. 5. mat. 20. 23. 1 pet. 3. 21. 1 cor. 15. 19. 1 cor. 1. 30. matth. 3. 6. 7. mark 1. 4. 5. luk. 13. 3 16. matth. 28. 19 , 20. mar. 16. 15 , 16. act. 2. 37. 47. act. 8. 12. 14. act 9. 11-17 . act. 10. 43-48 . notes for div a63200-e9420 v●d . park . pol. ecclesiastica . l. 3. c. 1 , 2 &c. a fen. theol. lib. 7. park . de pol. lib. 3. c. 1. j. d. apol. 27. sect. exam . pa. 238 , 239 , 240. b rob. against ber. pa. 182. by two or three are meant the meanest communion or societie of saints , with or without officers . rob. against ber. certaine observations , p. 4. onely he that is of the true visible church and furnished with the power of christ , the keyes of the kingdome for the censure can admonish his brother in order , and those degrees which the word prescribeth mat. 28. 15. 17. id pa 99. the power as to receive in , so to cut off any member is given to the whole body together of every christian congregation , and not to any one member apart , or to more members seque●tred from the whole , using the meetest number for pronouncing the censures , id. pa. 124-126 . if the brethren have libertie in the ordinance of prophesying , they have also libertie in the other ordinance of excommunication , for they are both of the same nature ; looke to whom christ gave the one key of knowledge , to them he gave the other key of discipline , rob. against b●rn . pa , 238 , 239. mat. 28. 19 28. joh. 20. 21 , 22. & 21. 15 , ●6 . gal. 1. 1. ioh 21. 22. whit. de pont . q. 8. c. 2. 3. 1 cor. 3. 22. & 4. 1. 1 tim. 3. 15. authoritas rectorum pro dono quidem ecclesiae à christo data est , sed non pro dono absoluto , ut penes totam ecclesiam resideat cui datur , sed pro dono conditionali , ut rectoribus ipsis communicetur ad totius aedificationem , park . de polit. lib. 3. cap. 8. 1 cor. 12. 7. 1 cor 3. 12. 1 tim 3. 15. 1 cor. 4. 1. act. 20. 28. eph. 4. 8. 11. 1 co. 12. 28 , 29 2 co 5. 19 , 20. tit. 1. 7. successor habet jurisdictionē ab eo a quo praedecessor , alioqui non verè succedit . but pastors and teachers are the successors of the apostles . whit. de pont . q. 8. c. 3. fr : victor rel . 2. de potest ecclesiae q. 2. alphons . de castr . li. 2. c. 24. de insta . haeret . whit. de pont . q. 8. c. 1. cham. panstr . ●om . 2. lib. 11. c. 18. sect . 11. ames bel-enerv . tom . 2. l. 3. c. 1. ministri ecclesiastici sunt ecclesiae tanquam objecti circa quod versantur ministri sunt christi tanquam principalis causae & domini à quo pendent ministri sed nullo modo episcoporum . omnis legatus in causâ legationis suae immediatè pendet ab eo à quo mittitur , & instrumento mandatorum in corrupto est indelebilis . a we denie the order of elders to be superiour to the order of saints , since it is not an order of mastership but of service . rob. against bern. pa. 201. it were a strange thing that men could have no command over their servants , as i have oft shewed the church-officers to be her servants . id. p. 214. the order of servants is inferiour to the order of them whose servants they are : but the order of church-officers is an order of servants , and they by office to serve the people , id. p. 215. 227. notes for div a63200-e10320 heb. 13. 1. pro. 12. 19. & 1. 7. 23. gen 4. 4. 9. levit. 19. 17. mat. 18. 15. gal. 6. 1. rob. ag . bern. pa. 230. exod. 24. 37. deut. 2. 14. & 4. 3. 4. & 9. 7. ezek. 16. 6. 8. nū . 23. 48. 50. deut. 29. 10. 11 , 12. josh 24. 1. 14. 23 , 24 , 25. iudg. 2. 8. 11. & 3. 9. 15. & 6. 7. & 10. 10-17 . 2 chr. 15. 12. 2 kin. 11. 17. & 23. 3. 2 chr. 34. 31. heb. 10. 29. 30. act. 2. 38. & 8. 37. & 19. 17 , 18 , 19. act. 8. 37. notes for div a63200-e11120 whit. de pont . q. 1. ca. 1. p. 14. ep 13. li. 3. rom 15. 14. heb. 3. 13. bel. de cler. li. 1. c. 7. jun. animad . contr . 5. l. c 7. not . 13. rom. 12. 12. theod. hist . l. 4. c. 6. aug epist . 110. & 225. socrat. hist . l 7. c. 34 , 35. 39. zozom . hist . l. 2. c. 18 , 19. nazian . in epitaphium patris evagr. l. 2. c. 5. 8. theod. hist . l. 5. c. 23. jun. animadver in bel. cont . 5. l. 1. c. 7. not . 16 , 17. cartur . reply 2d . part 1. pa. 211. illiric . catal . test . li. 2. tit . ecclesiae gubern . jos . antiq. l. 20. c. 18. c. 4. see ambros . de officijs . l. 1. c. 50. hieron . ad ocean & epist. ad nepotian . t. c. reply 1. pa. 41. a revet . cathol . orth . tract . 2. q. 8. sect. 3. cartw. reply 2. par . 1. pa. 273. notes for div a63200-e11870 to baptise is a duty of the pastors pastoriall office . i. d. apol . ser. exam . pa. 287. exam. of texts , pa. 290. apol. exam . of texts . p. 288. a dissertation concerning the government of the ancient church by bishops, metropolitans, and patriarchs more particularly concerning the ancient power and jurisdiction of the bishops of rome and the encroachments of that upon other sees, especially the see of constantinople / by william cave ... cave, william, 1637-1713. 1683 approx. 344 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 201 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2008-09 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a31419 wing c1595 estc r19344 12605651 ocm 12605651 64253 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a31419) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 64253) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 347:9) a dissertation concerning the government of the ancient church by bishops, metropolitans, and patriarchs more particularly concerning the ancient power and jurisdiction of the bishops of rome and the encroachments of that upon other sees, especially the see of constantinople / by william cave ... cave, william, 1637-1713. [47], 334, [8] p. printed for r. chiswel ..., london : 1683. errata on p. [47]. advertisements: [8] p. at end. reproduction of original in union theological seminary library, new york. marginal notes. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng church polity -history -early church, ca. 30-600. episcopacy -early works to 1800. patriarchs and patriarchate. papacy. 2006-07 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2006-07 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-06 robyn anspach sampled and proofread 2007-06 robyn anspach text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a dissertation concerning the government of the ancient church , by bishops , metropolitans , and patriarchs . more particularly , concerning the ancient power and jurisdiction of the bishops of rome , and the encroachments of that upon other sees , especially the see of constantinople . by william cave , d. d. one of his majesties chaplains in ordinary . omne genus ad originem suam censeatur , necesse est . tert. de praescript . c. 20. p. 208. london , printed for r. chiswel , at the rose and crown in s. paul's church-yard , mdclxxxiii . to the right reverend father in god henry lord bishop of london , one of the lords of his majesties most honourable privy-council . my lord , in compliance with the good old rule of s. ignatius , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , do nothing without leave from the bishop , i have taken the confidence to lay these papers at your lordships feet ; being well content , they should receive from you a sentence of life or death ; either to come abroad into open light , or be condemn'd to be thrown aside , if you shall judge them useless and unprofitable . for i am not so fond of my own undertakings , as to flatter my self , that any thing that i can do , will work much upon the obstinate humour of a perverse and contentious age. my lord , the church of england is usually assaulted by two sorts of adversaries . the one declar'd enemies to the episcopal government , or if at any time in a good humour they allow the name , they deny the thing making the bishop of the primitive times no more in effect than a meer parish-priest . the other are great pretenders to antiquity , and strongly enough assert the episcopal order , but withall would obtrude upon us a supreme and universal bishop , to whom all others are to be subject and accountable , and he we may be sure is the bishop of rome . as for the first of these , i have not directly enter'd the lists with them , though what is here said concerning the ancient church-government might be enough to satisfie men modest and unprejudic'd ; and more i did not think fit to add . they have been so often baffled upon that argument , that nothing but a resolv'd obstinacy could make them keep a post , so utterly indefensable . but the men of that way seem generally too over-weaning and opiniative , and i have no hopes of doing good upon that man , that 's wiser in his own conceit , than seven men that can render a reason . indeed the nature of my design led me more immediately to encounter with the other party , whose cause ( so far as it relates to the subject under debate ) i have examin'd , and brought to be tried by the standard of antiquity , the truest rule to proceed by in this matter ; and this managed without any needless exasperations . for i never could think it a reasonable method of conviction to rail at popery , or to load the bishop of rome with ill names , and spiteful characters . the best way sure in such cases is to appeal to the judgment of the ancients , and to enquire what power and authority was allow'd him in the wiser and better ages of christianity . which i hope i have done with all truth and fairness in the following discourse . my lord , your lordships known zeal for the protestant cause , and ( what next the goodness of the divine providence is the strongest bulwark and defence of it ) the honour and interest of the church of england , might give you a just title to this discourse , though there were no other inducement to it . but we that are the clergy of your diocess , think our selves oblig'd to take all occasions of letting the world know , how much we rejoyce under the happy influences of your care and conduct ; how much we are beholden to that great example of pastoral industry and diligence , you daily set before us ; that we have to deal with a temper so incomparably sweet and obliging , and that not only in private converses , but in all public cases that concern the church under your charge , you are pleased so freely and familiarly to consult and advise with us . 't is this ( to mention no more ) that creates in us so just a regard and veneration for your lordship . and i verily believe , since the primitive times there never was a more mutual endearment and correspondence . never bishop , that treated his clergy with a more paternal kindness and condiscention ; never clergy that paid a greater reverence , and a more chearful obedience to their bishop . that this concord and agreement may not only continue , but encrease , and the happy effects of it visibly spread over your whole diocess , and especially this great city , is the earnest prayer of , my lord , your lordships faithful and sincerely devoted servant , william cave . to the reader . among the several virtues , wherewith the religion of our lord does at once refine and adorn humane nature , there are none conduce more , both to the peace of the world , and the quiet of private and particular persons , than humility and contentment ; the laying aside the vain and fond opinion of our selves , a lowliness of mind to esteem others better than our selves , in honour preferring one another ; an easiness and satisfaction under that place and portion , which the wisdom of the divine providence has thought fit to allot us , and a generous contempt of those little and sordid arts , by which men hunt after power and greatness , and impatiently affect dominion and superiority over others . a noble and divine temper of mind , which our lord has effectually recommended both by his doctrine , and the example of his life . he has taught us , that we should not , after the proud and hypocritical manner of the pharisees , do our works to be seen of men , make broad our phylacteries , and enlarge the borders of our garments , love the uppermost rooms at feasts , and the chief seats in the synagogue , and greetings in the markets ; that we should not affect proud titles , and the honour of a name , to be call'd of men , rabbi , rabbi , for that one is our master , even christ , and all we are brethren , ( not that our lord here absolutely forbids all honour and precedence , no more than he does all mastership and superiority in what follows , but only an inordinate desire , a vicious and irregular inclination toward these things , and an undue and tyrannical exercise of them ) that we should call no man our father upon earth , that is , in the same sence , and with the same respect , wherewith we do god , for that one is our father , which is in heaven , neither that we be called masters , for that one is our master , even christ : for that whosoever should exalt himself , shall be abased , and he that should humble himself , shall be exalted . and then for his own practice , how openly did he protest against seeking his own glory , or receiving honour from men ? how studiously did he stifle the fame of his own miracles , and whatever might raise him in the esteem and value of the world. when an appeal was made to him to judge a cause , he rebuk'd the motion with a who made me a judge , and a ruler over you ? when the jews were resolv'd to have made him king , he fled from the very shadow of a crown . when there was a strife amongst his own apostles , which of them should be accounted the greatest , like the kings of the gentiles which exercis'd lordship and authority over their subjects , he ended the controversy with a short decision , but ye shall not be so . this charge s. peter particularly applies to the bishops and rulers of the church , that they should not be lords over god's heritage ; that the younger should submit themselves to the elder ; yea , all of them be subject one to another , and be cloathed with humility : for that god resisteth the proud , and giveth grace to the humble . had the excellent rules here laid down by s. peter , been observ'd by those who pretend to be his successors , the christian world had been free from those infinite disturbances and distractions , which the pride and ambition of the roman bishops have brought upon it . for certainly among all the corruptions and innovations of that church , nothing is more palpable and notorious , than an intolerable usurpation over the rights of their brethren ; nothing more wild and extravagant , than the challenging a supremacy over the christian church , as affix'd to the see of rome , expresly contrary not only to the scripture , the great canon of our faith , but to the laws of all ancient councils , and the practice of the church ; which however it allow'd a primary honour and respect to the roman prelate , yet still set him out , as it did to all other bishops , the particular extent of his jurisdiction . this is that which i have endeavoured to evince in the following discourse , wherein i have trac'd the papal authority to those proper bounds and limits , within which it was confin'd of old . and upon that occasion have briefly survey'd the frame and constitution of the ancient church , and that policy and government , whereby it was manag'd in its purer and better times . that which gave birth to the whole discourse , was this : i had elsewhere in relating the acts of the second general council , represented the third canon of that council , which decreed , that the bishop of constantinople , upon the account of its being new rome , or the imperial city , should have the priviledge of honour next to the bishop of rome . a canon which they of rome could never pardon , as which limits the power of the roman prelate , and declares the foundation upon which it stands . for the illustration of this canon , i intended im that place to have added a digression concerning the ancient power and precedence of the bishops of rome ; but upon second thoughts , referr'd it to an appendix at the end of the book . but that book swelling into too great a bulk , and this discourse being grown beyond the proportion that was at first design'd , i was over-perswaded by some friends to venture it abroad alone . a thing which had i intended from the beginning , it had come forth , at least in some parts , more perfect than it is , and with some advantages which now it is forc'd to go without . i have wholly wav'd all debates concerning the jus divinum of episcopacy , and the controversies that depend upon it , ( enough has been said upon that argument ) and have chiefly insisted upon those branches of the ecclesiastic government , which have been less canvassed amongst us . for the same reason i have more lightly touch'd upon the pope's universal supremacy , 't was his metropolitical and patriarchal power i principally design'd to enquire into . i know volumes have been written de primatu papae , de ecclesiis suburbicariis , &c. and therefore i have reduc'd what concerns those matters into as narrow a compass as i could , and have said no more than what is necessary to clear the argument , and express my own sense about it . if what is here said shall administer any light to this part of church-antiquity , i shall be very glad ; if not , i am content it should follow the fate of many much better books to be thrown aside . 't was never design'd to instruct the learned , but only to form a short scheme of the true state of things , for the benefit of those , who have not been much conversant in the antiquities of the church ; at least to give some aid and direction to the younger sort , who first apply themselves to the study of those ancient times . and if it may but attain this end , i shall think my time and pains have been well bestow'd . the contents . chap. i. the state of the church-government , and power of the roman bishops 'till the council of nice . an equality among the apostles as church governours appointed by christ . peter's pretended supremacy over the rest shewed to be vain and groundless . if any such had been granted , it belong'd not to the roman bishops . early appearances of the pride and usurpation of the bishops of that church . special advantages of that see to set up for tyranny and usurpation . the foundation of that church by two great apostles , peter and paul. rome the seat of the empire . the honour and advantages of that church thereby . the catholick faith long time preserv'd entire in the church of rome . it s large revenues affording liberal hospitality . it s sending forth emissaries to plant christianity in other countries , and thereby claiming superiority over them . the pride of that church severely censur'd by s. basil . a general scheme of the subordination in the government of the primitive church , by bishops , archbishops , and patriarchs , and the conformity herein to the civil state. episcopal government , how it spread it self at first ? metropolitans introduc'd , and why ? a brief account of the ancient way of ecclesiastical administration out of cyprian and others , by the bishop and his clergy , by provincial synods . what things usually manag'd there . foreign churches how mutually transacting with one another . the bishops of rome had no more authority in this period , than the bishops of other greater sees . pope melchiades appointed commissioner by constantine . donatus appeals from his judgment . his sentence brought under examinations in the synod of arles . page 1 chap. ii. the government of the church , and power of the bishops of rome , as 't is represented in the canons of the nicene council . the sixth canon of the synod of nice set down , with the occasion of it . seven observations drawn from that canon . i. that the larger bounds of ecclesiastick jurisdiction were the roman provinces . a. province , what . whether the countries in italy so called . ii. that the chief church-governour in every province was the metropolitan . the prudence and convenience of that way of government . patriarchs prov'd not to be intended in the nicene canon . iii. that the bishop of rome no less than the rest had his proper and limited metropolitical power . this own'd by some of the greatest champions of rome . iv. that the metropolitick sees of rome , alexandria and antioch , were ever of the greatest note in the christian church , and of these rome the chief . the eminency of sees according to the greatness of the cities wherein they were planted . this gave precedency to the church of rome . the three sees of rome , alexandria and antioch ascribed to s. peter . blasphemous things spoken of the pope upon that account . primacy allow'd to the see of rome . no supremacy belonging to it . the christian church then knew of no such supereininent power . v. that the rights of the roman metropolitan were not due by any divine constitution , but by custom and the practice of the church . this plainly shew'd to be the sence of this and other following councils . vi. that the ordination of provincial bishops was one of the prime rights and priviledges of every metropolitan within his own jurisdiction . the fourth , sixth , and seventh canons of this council noted to that purpose . the same shew'd to be the determination of other synods . what other rights belong'd to metropolitans . vii . that this way of ecclesiastick administration was not any late novel institution , but founded upon ancient custom and practice . what this antiquity implies . the original of metropolitans briefly enquir'd into . several instances of this way of government noted in the second and third centuries . the word metropolitan not met with 'till the council of nice . but the thing long before . the sum of the observations upon this canon . page 46 chap. iii. the extent of the bishop of rome's jurisdiction , considered as a metropolitan . a search into the proper bounds of the roman bishop . his power fourfold , episcopal , metropolitical , patriarchal , apostolical . the first not controverted ; the last discharg'd as extravagant and groundless , and as frequently baffled , both by the reformed , and greek church . l. allatius's jeer of his country-men . his metropolitical jurisdiction considered , as concurrent with that of the provost of rome . that how great , and how far extending . the suburbicary regions , what . sicily no part of the urbicary regions . the usual conformity between the extent of the civil and ecclesiastick jurisdiction in those times . the power of the roman metropolitan confin'd within an hundred miles of rome . rufinus his exposition of the suburbicary churches . greatly quarrell'd at by the romish writers . his authority in other cases allow'd sufficient and unquestionable . his book approv'd by pope gelasius and others . no probability of his being mistaken in the sence of the canon , or the extent of the roman metropolitanship , or the suburbicary churches . his explication confirm'd by most ancient interpreters of this canon . the bishops of rome and italy distinct . the bishop of milan rank'd with him of rome . the objection of the bishop of rome's being confin'd to so narrow a compass , consider'd and answer'd . the majores dioeceses in the epistle of the synod of arles , what . the bounds of the roman bishops shew'd to have been heretofore small from an ancient notitia episcopatuum . the fraud in the first publication of that notitia . morinus noted . the greatness of rome equivalent to a large extent . page 98 chap. iv. an enquiry into the rise and original of patriarchs in the christian church . an enquiry into the rise and original of patriarchs in general . none before the council of nice . what that council contributed to them . civil dioceses , when , and by whom introduc'd . these gave start to primary metropolitans . dioceses , when first brought into the church . the title of patriarch borrow'd from the jews . who their patriarchs , and whence descended . exarchs , what . the word patriarch , when first us'd by church-writers in a strict and proper sence . the patriarchs among the montanists , who . a short survey of the four great patriarchates . the extent of the patriarchate of alexandria . the dioecesis aegyptiaca , what . the patriarchal jurisdiction in what sence larger than that of the augustal prefect . little gain'd to this patriarchate more than a title of honour . the patriarchate of antioch commensurate to the eastern diocess . the contest about cyprus , how determin'd . palestine for some time under antioch . the patriarchship of constantinople . by what degrees it arose . what privilege conferr'd upon it by the second general council . the bishops of it hence forwards exercising a kind of patriarchal power over the churches of the neighbouring provinces . the power granted to that see by the council of chalcedon . its ninth , seventeenth , and eight and twentieth canons considered to that purpose . jurisdiction over the three dioceses of asiana , pontica , and thrace . this setled upon a full debate and discussion of the matter . this power own'd by the synod to have been exercised of a long time before . this grant urg'd against the universal supremacy of the see of rome . the extent of the constantinopolitan patriarchate in after times manifested from several ancient notitiae . the patriarchate of jerusalem . the honour confirm'd to this church by the nicene council . it s subjection to the see of caesarea . when first attempting a metropolitical power . the contest between this bishop , and the bishop of antioch , how determin'd in the council of chalcedon . when first styl'd patriarch . the extent of this patriarchate . page 137 chap. v. the bounds of the roman patriarchate . a return to the roman patriarchate . the limits hereof not expresly set down by the ancients . unjustly pretended to reach over the whole west . this granted by them of the greek church , and why . the pope's patriarchal power disown'd by the churches of milan , aquileia , and ravenna . the independency and opposition of those churches to the roman see , severally evinc'd by particular cases and instances . the power of metropolitans in france kept up independant from rome . the truth of this confess'd and clear'd by de marca . other instances of preserving their rights against the pretensions of rome , hincmar of rhemes , and the synod of metz. two other national churches instanc'd in , the african , and the britannick churches . the famous case of appeals in the church of africk . a clear account of that matter . their publick rejecting the power which the pope challeng'd over those churches . the letters of the council of carthage to pope boniface and caelestine to that purpose . several useful and proper corollaries deduc'd from this story , for the evincing the vain pretensions of the papal power over those churches . the boldness of some in denying the truth of this whole story . the state of the britannick church . the progress of religion and church-government here 'till the times of pope gregory . the church govern'd here by an archbishop and bishop at austin's arrival . their customs wholly different from , and independant upon rome . their absolute refusal to own the authority of austin or the pope . the slaughter of the bangor-monks suspiciously charg'd upon austin . the pope's proper patriarchate most probably shew'd to be of equal extent with the jurisdiction of the vicarius urbicus . what provinces under his government . the roman synod consisting of the bishops of those provinces . a twofold patriarchate of the pope trifling and precarious . the bishops of rome daily amplifying their jurisdiction . the means whereby they did this briefly intimated . page 198 chap. vi. the encroachments of the see of rome upon other sees , especially the see of constantinople . the roman bishops breaking the bounds of all laws and canons . their taking hold of all occasions of magnifying their own power . instances of julius , damasus , innocent , zosimus , to this purpose . the briskness and activity of pope leo. his many letters written to advance the reputation of his authority . his jealous eye upon the growing greatness of the see of constantinople . the attempts and actings of his legates in the council of chalcedon . their mighty opposition against the passing the xxviii . canon of that synod . the fraud of paschasinus in citing the sixth canon of nice . their protestation against the power granted to the bishop of constantinople . pope leo's zeal and rage against these synodal proceedings . faelix his excommunicating acacius of constantinople . the pretended occasion of that sentence . the same spleen continued and carried on by pope gelasius . a reconciliation procur'd by the emperour justin between the bishops of rome and constantinople . pope john's insulting over epiphanius in his own church at constantinople . john the second's ranting letter to justinian . the bishop of constantinople assumes the title of oecumenical patriarch . this in what sence ( probably ) meant . the passionate resentment of pope pelagius hereat . the same zeal shew'd by his successor gregory the great . his letters written upon that occasion . the hard words he every where bestows upon that title . his mistake about the offer of that title to the pope in the chalcedon council . the true state of that case . this title frequently given to the constantinopolitan bishops in the council under mennas , before john assumed it . baronius's poor evasion of that matter . gregory still continues to thunder out anathema's against this title . all this suspected to be but noise , and the quarrel only because themselves had not the title . phocas his usupation of the empire . the monstrous villany and wickedness of that man. pope gregory's scandalously flattering caresses to him and his empress . boniface the third makes suit to phocas , and procures the title of oecumenical to be affixt to the see of rome . the pope's daily enlargement of their power and tyranny , and their advantages for so doing . the whole concluded with the canons or dictates of pope hildebrand . page 267 errata . page 5. line 8. read whosoever . p. 52. l. 21. r. administration . p. 73. marg . r. iii. p. 75. l. 12. r. head . p. 110. l. 19. r. crustuminum . p. 133. l. 15. r. larger . p. 136. l. 3. r. desire . p. 152. l. 12. after who , add are . p. 173. l. 4. r. this . p. 187. l. 22. r. them . p. 300. l. 4. r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p. 304. l. 13. r. isidore . a dissertation concerning the government of the ancient church , by bishops , metroplitans , and patriarchs , &c. chap. i. the state of the church-government , and power of the roman bishops till the council of nice . an equality among the apostles as church governours appointed by christ . peters pretended supremacy over the rest shewed to be vain and groundless . if any such had been granted , it belong'd not to the roman bishops . early appearances of the pride and usurpation of the bishops of that church . special advantages of that see to set up for tyranny and usurpation . the foundation of that church by two great apostles , peter and paul. rome the seat of the empire . the honour and advantages of that church thereby . the catholick faith long time preserv'd intire in the church of rome . it s large revenues affording liberal hospitality . it s sending forth emissaries to plant christianity in other countries ▪ and thereby claiming superiority over them . the pride of that church severely censur'd by st. basil . a general scheme of the subordination in the government of the primitive church , by bishops , arch-bishops and patriarchs , and the conformity herein to the civil state. episcopal government how it spreads it self at first ? metropolitans introduc'd and why . a brief account of the ancient way of ecclesiastical administration out of cyprian and others , by the bishop and his clergy , by provincial synods . what things usually manag'd there . foreign churches how mutually transacting with one another . the bishops of rome had no more authority in this period than the bishops of other greater sees . pope melchiades appointed commissioner by constantine . donatus appeals from his judgment . his sentence brought under examinations in the synod of arles . i. order and government are so essentially necessary to the peace and welfare of mankind , that no society whether civil or sacred can subsist without it : where there is none to command , there will be none to obey , and where every one is left to do what he please , there must be confusion and every evil work . no sooner therefore had our blessed saviour laid the foundation of the christian church , but he chose twelve , whom he named apostles , to whose care and conduct he committed the administration of it . these he invested with equal powers , upon these he deriv'd the same mission , which he himself had receiv'd from god , as my father sent me , so send i you . all had the same authority to preach , plant , and propagate the church , to feed and rule the flock of christ , to go teach and baptize all nations ; the same keys of the kingdom of heaven committed to one as well as another , that whatsoever sins they should remit , they should be remitted , and whosoever sins they retain , they should be retained : the same holy spirit breathed upon all with a receive ye the holy ghost . notwithstanding all which , it is confidently pretended on the behalf of s. peter , that a paramount authority was conferr'd upon him , and that not only above , but over the rest , that he was constituted by our lord , prince and head of the colledge ; the other apostles were indeed shepherds of the flock , but were themselves christs sheep , and st. peter appointed pastor over them ; with a great deal more , boldly asserted at a venture , and attempted to be made good by such warrant from scripture , as any thing , but the necessity of maintaining a desperate cause would be ashamed to produce . and as no such charter can be produc'd , sign'd by our saviour , so neither do we find s. peter challenging , much less exercising any such superiority . he submitted to the orders of the apostolical colledge , and rendered himself accountable to them for his actions , styles himself no more than their fellow-presbyter , and cautions against lording over god's heritage . how openly did s. paul assert , that he came not a whit behind 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the very chiefest apostles ? and that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto him , as well as that of the circumcision was to peter . james and john are said to be pillars as well as he ; nay , the whole twelve apostles are equally styl'd the twelve foundations of the new jerusalem , that descended out of heaven , and it was indifferently promised to all , that they should sit upon twelve thrones , judging the twelve tribes of israel . nay , when a strife arose amongst them , which of them should be greatest in his kingdom , our lord on purpose to silence all such ambitious attempts for the future , plainly told them , that though the kings of the gentiles exercised dominion over their subjects , and they that are great exercised authority upon them : yet ye shall not be so ; but whosoever will be great among you , let him be your minister , and whosoever will be chief among you , let him be your servant . ii. and yet after all should it be granted , that our lord gave s. peter some kind of superiour power over the rest , yet what is this to the bishops of rome ? unless it could be prov'd , that those priviledges were to be haereditary , and were not to determine and expire with s. peter's person . bellarmine * pleads , that it is founded in a right of succession , and this right settled jure divino , and by our lords own institution , who expresly commanded s. peter to fix the apostolical seat at rome . the proofs he brings to make good this command are a passage out of an apocryphal epistle of pope marcellus , long since discarded together with the rest , as the most notorious cheat and imposture that ever was put upon the christian church ; and at best an uncertain story of our lords appearing to peter , and that too nothing to his purpose . and therefore not daring to trust to them , he fairly quits * the jus divinum , and confesses that the pontifical succession has no foundation in scripture : however , that 't is not improbable , and that 't is a thing piously to be believed ; that is , perhaps it may be so , and perhaps not , we may do well to believe it , but there 's no certain ground for it . an admirable foundation to build so important a claim upon , and for the sake whereof they have now for many ages created so much trouble and disturbance to the christian world. and besides , there 's a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in this case lies at the bottom , it being generally taken for granted , that s. peter was in a proper sence bishop of rome , which yet i believe can never be made good . that he constituted that church , and laid down his life there for the confirmation of it , i easily grant , but this makes him not properly bishop of it , and consequently the popes cannot properly be his successours . dye he might there , but how comes this to entitle the bishops of rome to the succession ? if so , then ( as a learned man * of the greek church long since urged in this case ) because our lord died at jerusalem , therefore the bishop of jerusalem , as possessing the seat of our great high-priest , may claim an universal superiority , and challenge to be as much greater than the bishop of rome , as christ is than peter . once more , let it be suppos'd that this supremacy was entail'd not only upon s. peter , but upon his successors , how comes it to pass that it was not lodg'd in the see of antioch , where they grant s. peter resided as bishop several years before he went to rome , and which therefore in all reason ought to challenge a primary title ? an objection which bellarmin with all the subtilties of his wit and learning is not able to claw off . so many insuperable barrs are there lying in the way to this soveraign and unaccountable authority of their church . iii. but what power soever the bishops of rome may pretend to derive from s. peter , sure i am they thus far inherit too much of his spirit and temper , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i mean , that rash and busie fervour and eagerness , so frequently noted in him by the ancients : forward like him to speak , run , and interpose at every turn ; and forward like him too to smite with the sword , when meeting with the least opposition . no sooner were the heats of the fifth persecution somewhat cooled , and the church entred a little upon more calm and prosperous days , but we find pope victor , an. 196. picking a quarrel with some of the eastern churches about the time of celebrating easter , and though they justified themselves to the christian world by apostolical practice , and a constant uninterrupted observation ever since , yet because refusing to comply with the custome of the church of rome , he hastily threw them under excommunication , to the great disturbance and amazement of the christian world , for which he was severely rebuked by the wise and good men of that time , especially the mild and peaceable irenaeus . it was not much above half an age after this , when the practice of baptizing a new those who had been baptized by hereticks begun mightily to prevail in some parts of the east , but especially in the african churches . stephen , who was then bishop of rome , storm'd hereat , and in a great rage publickly declared , that he would hold no communion with them ; and when , according to the custome whereby churches mutually acted in those days , they sent some bishops to give him an account of their opinion and practice , he proudly refused * either to see them , or speak with them ; and not content to deprive them of the peace and communion of the church , he denied them the common offices of humanity and charity , forbidding the christians at rome so much as to entertain them . to cyprian he gave very hard words , calling him false christ , false apostle , deceitful worker ; and no better did he treat firmilian bishop of caesarea in cappadocia , and the churches of iconium . but cyprian ( though a man otherwise of great gentleness and moderation ) plainly told him , * that this was nothing but the effect of a proud , impertinent , imprudent , self-contradicting humour , that it proceeded from blindness and perverseness , from obstinacy and presumption , and directly tended to the patronage and encouragement of error and heresie . firmilian charg'd * him with inhumanity , audaciousness and insolence , with doing very unjust and unwarrantable things ; that they at rome , however vainly pretending apostolical authority , did not themselves exactly observe primitive tradition , that he could not but disdain stephens open and manifest folly , who while he boasted so much of the eminency of his episcopal place , and contended that he had the succession of peter , upon whom the foundations of the church were laid , did yet hereby introduce several other rocks , and build new churches upon them . and when not long after the controversie came to be canvass'd in a synod of eighty seven african bishops , whom cyprian had assembled at carthage for that purpose , in the speech that he made at the opening of the council , cyprian tax'd the pride and ambition of the bishop of rome , telling * them that they should all freely speak their minds , without judging , or excommunicating any that were of another opinion , that none of them took upon himself to make himself bishop of bishops , or by a tyrannical threatning to force his colleagues into a necessity of compliance : since every bishop , according to the power and liberty granted to him , had his proper rule and jurisdiction , and could no more be judg'd by another , than he himself could judge others ; that in these matters they were to expect the judgment of our lord jesus christ , who alone had power both of appointing governours over his church , and of calling them to an account for their administration . iv. by these instances ( and many more no doubt , which the history of those times would have set before us , had the churches records come safe to us ) it appears , how early the bishops of rome set out to usurp a dominion over the church , and though they generally met with opposition , yet they still went on , and vigorously improv'd all advantages , with what success , the christian world has now for many ages found to their cost . and certainly never any stood fairer to start and carry on such a design . for , first , their church was not only apostolical , but had been founded by two of the most eminent apostles , peter and paul , which gave a mighty reputation to it in after ages ; the christian world bearing an extraordinary reverence to those great names , which the bishops of that see knew how to improve to their own advantage . for this reason irenaeus * calls the church of rome the greatest and most eminent church , and most universally known , as being founded by the two most glorious apostles peter and paul ; and s. augustine * says , that in it there always flourished the principality of the apostolick chair ; and origen took a journey * on purpose to rome , to gratify his curiosity with the sight of so ancient and renowned a church . and upon this account must be discharged very many of those great things , which several of the fathers speak so liberally concerning the church of rome ; who thought they could never express a veneration big enough towards s. peter , and consequently towards the place which he had honoured with his doctrine and residence , and watred with his blood : which however spoken by them out of a devout intent , prov'd the first rounds of that ladder , by which the roman bishops mounted up to a supremacy above the rest . it happening in a few ages that nothing was talkt of at rome , but of the prince of the apostles , and the authority of the apostolick see , 'till almost every thing there became apostolical , and was covered with s. peters name . secondly , their church was planted in the imperial city , a place that seem'd born for empire and soveraignty , that had long since conquered , and at that time governed the greatest part of the world ; a city that was the center of all nations , and the seat of majesty and magnificence , where all great affairs were transacted , and all the scenes of glory and greatness represented in a little compass . which could not but reflect a more than ordinary lustre upon those bishops that sat at the upper end of the world , and make them appear considerably bigger , more conspicuous and useful than the rest of their brethren , and by reason of the general confluence of all nations to rome , enable them in a little time to draw the cognizance of ecclesiastick causes from all parts thither . 't was this conveniency of situation gave them opportunity to insinuate themselves into the favour of the emperors , and by their power to enlarge their own borders , yea , and to succour and relieve their clients and dependants , which made many to court their protection and assistance , though often with the loss of their own freedom and liberty . this was especially done after the emperours became christians , the roman church being by them enrich'd with vast honours and priviledges , accounting that the greatness of that church would not a little contribute to the splendour and magnificence of the empire . and though the imperial seat was quickly translated to another place , yet besides that the emperours a long time retain'd their affection for rome , what the pope lost in one sence , he gain'd in another , making use of the emperours absence to enhance his own power and revenue , 'till he was able not only to lord it over his brethren , but over princes themselves . thirdly , the roman church continued for several ages the seat of true apostolick doctrine , maintaining that character that s paul had given them , that their faith was spoken of throughout the whole world , it being here preserv'd pure and uncorrupt , while a great part of the christian world besides was over run with error and heresie , and torn in pieces by schisms and factions . this made rome in those days ( while it remain'd sound and orthodox ) in a manner the standard of catholick communion , most other churches veering in point of communion , as they found the wind blow from that quarter , and saw how the business far'd at rome . accordingly theodosius in the beginning of his reign resolving to reform the doctrine of the church , then miserably degenerated in the eastern parts , commanded , * that that faith only should take place , that was profess'd by pope damasus , and peter of alexandria , that faith and religion which s. peter had delivered to the church of rome , and which had all along 'till that time flourisht there . this made way for appeals , every party being desirous to gain the good will of that church , and to have its bishop pronounce for their cause , 'till from an honourary arbitration it came to be claim'd as a right and due . and persons ( especially those who were persecuted in their own countries for their adherence to the catholick faith ) were the more encourag'd to repair hither , because here they were kindly treated , and hospitably entertain'd ; a piece of charity which the bishops of that church by reason of their ample possessions and large endowments , were very capable to afford . for besides their standing rents and revenues , their gains by collections and oblations was so great , that by them alone in the time of pope damasus , they were enabled to live in a state and grandeur like that of temporal princes , if we may believe the account given by ammianus marcellinus ; * and the story is known of praetextatus ( a zealous gentile ) design'd to be consul , who reflecting upon the plenty of that see , was wont pleasanly to tell * pope damasus , make me but bishop of rome , and i will immediately become a christian . 't is certain that church could never want plentiful incomes flowing in upon it ; and as charitable it was in those days , as it was wealthy , and was not only very kind to strangers when they came thither , but was wont to transmit very liberal distributions of its charity to forreign churches , to relieve the necessities of the brethren that were under persecution , and were condemned to the mines , as dionysius bishop of corinth tells us in his letter * to soter bishop of rome , written about the year clxxiv . and that this had been the custome of that church from the very infancy of christianity . fourthly , the church of rome by the advantage of the imperial city was capable of propagating the christian doctrine into several parts of the west , to send out disciples , receive dispatches , transmit directions , and supply all emergencies that might arise . accordingly upon this foundation the popes built and advanc't a claim to superiority and dominion . thus damasus writing * to the bishops of africk , tells them , that in all doubtful cases they ought to have recourse to him as to the head , and thence to take their determination , from whence they had received their institution and instruction in the christian faith. and pope innocent tells * decentius bishop of eugubium , that all the churches in those parts ought to take their measures from rome , and nothing to be valid , but what 's received from thence ; it being evident , that no churches had been planted in italy , france , spain , africk , sicily , and the interjacent islands by any , but such as had been ordain'd by s. peter , or his successors . and this is the plea we are so often urg'd with , whereby the roman see challenges jurisdiction over england , its commissionating augustine the monk to convert the saxons , and settle religion in these parts . but were there no more to be offered in answer to it , this were enough , that christianity had for several ages been planted here , before ever austin set his foot on english ground : as perhaps we may have occasion to shew afterwards . in short , though it became churches thus planted , to bear a very grateful respect to that mother church , that was the instrument to convey to them the christian faith ; yet did it lay them under no obligation to subjection and servitude : however the church of rome has handled the matter to its own advantage , and from the lenity and tenderness of a parent , had degenerated into the pride and cruelty of a stepmother ; and not content to exercise authority over its own colonies , began to advance its banners over all the rest ; proudly proclaiming it self the mother and mistres of all churches . i observe no more , then that pride seems to be a vice more peculiar to rome , than other places : 't was this put the old romans upon subduing the world ; and by this the emperors tyrannized over it for some ages , and when rome shifted its lords , it did not change its task-masters ; the ambition which the emperors laid down , the popes took up , and prosecuted it by far worse arts and methods , than ever the romans did of old . s. basil more than once complains * of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the pride of the west , and how little help was to be expected from them that neither understood the truth , nor would be content to learn it ; that he was resolved to write to the pope , to let him know that it did not become him to insult over and add to the miseries of the afflicted , nor to think pride to be honourable ; a thing alone sufficient to render a man odious in the sight of god : and elsewhere he expresses * a very passionate resentment , that he hated the pride of that church . v. furnished with these advantages , the roman prelates set up for themselves , and gave not over , till they had by right and wrong spread such an ecclesiastic empire over the world , as would admit neither superior nor equal . in order to the discovery whereof , it will be necessary to enquire what was of old the proper jurisdiction of the bishops of rome , before they removed those antient land-marks which the fathers had set . we have elsewhere * observ'd , ( what has been remarkt by many , and indeed is evident to any one vers'd in church-antiquity ) that in the primitive times , the external polity of the church was conform'd as near as might be to the mode that obtain'd in the civil state. now the whole roman empire consisted of thirteen dioceses , ( for so they began to style those large divisions about the time of constantine , ) whereof seven in the eastern parts , egypt , the orient , or east properly so call'd , asiana , pontica , thrace , macedonia and dacia ; and six in the west , italy , afric , illyricum , france , spain , and britain ; besides the roman praefecture , extending to the provinces round about the city , which had anciently been a peculiar government , equal , yea superior in dignity to any diocess ; whereof hereafter . in each of these diocesses were several provinces , ( 118 in all ) the chief city whereof in every province , was the metropolis , that had a kind of jurisdiction over all the rest ; both title and dignity being peculiarly settled by imperial constitution . now the civil and ecclesiastical jurisdiction , were concurrent after this manner ; in every city there was a civil judge , who presided over it , and the towns about it ; and to him answered the bishop of that city : in every province a proconsul or president resided at the metropolis , govern'd that whole division , received appeals , and determined all important cases brought before him from the inferior cities . correspondent to him was the metropolitan , or ( as they after call'd him ) the archbishop , whose see was in the same city , who superintended the several churches , and ordained the several bishops within his province . and then in every diocess , there was a vicarius or lieutenant , who kept his residence in the principal city , thence dispatcht the imperial edicts , and there heard and decided those causes , that were not finally determin'd by inferiour courts . and concurrent with him in ecclesiastical matters was the primate , or ( as some of them were more eminently stiled ) the patriarch , who presided over the several metropolitans within that diocess , appointed the conventions of his clergy , umpir'd the differences that arose between the several bishops , and gave the last determination to all appeals brought before him . and thus by an orderly subordination of deacons and presbyters to their bishops , of bishops to their immediate metropolitans , of metropolitans to their respective primates or patriarchs , and by a mutual correspondence between the several primates of every diocess , the affairs of the christian church were carried on with great decorum and regularity . vi. this excellent platform was not fram'd and set up all at once . in the more early ages christianity being generally first preacht and planted in the greater cities , and the ecclesiastical government settled there , thence spread it self into the neighbouring country , and persons were thence dispatcht to preach and attend the ministeries of religion in those rural plantations , who yet were in all things steer'd and directed by the bishop and his ecclesiastick senate residing in the city . as churches multiplied , and christianity extended it self into wider circles , it was found necessary to fix a particular bishop almost in every city , to whom was committed the care and superintendency over all the clergy and people there , and in all the towns and villages belonging to the jurisdiction of that place . but because controversies began to arise between the several bishops ( and sometimes between them and the inferiour clergy ) which could not easily be determin'd , where every ones authority was independant , it was necessary that some one should preside over all the other bishops of that province , as the proconsul did in the civil state , who might convene synodical assemblies , adjust the differences , and manage the ordinations of the provincial bishops . and for this none could be so fit as he that resided in the metropolis of the province ( thence call'd metropolitan ) partly because the countries for the most part round about had originally derived their christianity from thence , and 't was but fit they should pay a peculiar respect to the mother-church , partly because most persons had occasion to resort thither for the dispatch of business , and might with the same opportunity conveniently transact both their civil and ecclesiastick matters , and partly because 't was but reasonable , that the bishop of so eminent a place should 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 have an honourable presidency over the rest , as the council of antioch particularly provides * in this case ; ordaining accordingly , that tho every bishop might ordain presbyters and deacons , and manage the affairs of his own 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or particular diocess ( as we now call it ) yet that all the bishops of the province should acknowledge the metropolitan , and attempt nothing of moment without his knowledge and consent ; which they there enact , not as any novel constitution , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as they tell us , according to a most ancient rule and canon , that had been in force from the times of their fore-fathers . to the metropolitan then upon every extraordinary occasion the provincial bishops addressed themselves , to him also other metropolitans , such especially as lay nearest to him , were wont to send letters of communion , to testify their consent with him in the faith ( a confession whereof every new metropolitan us'd to send abroad upon his advancement to his see ) and mutually to consult each others advice in all important cases . vii . this 't is plain from the writings of s. cyprian and others , was the way of administration during those first and most early ages of christianity : private causes every bishop judg'd of within his particular jurisdiction , where taking to him the assistance of his clergy , his presbyters and deacons , they did communi consilio ponderare , * weigh things by common advice and deliberation ; where the case was of greater importance , or more general concernment , it was referr'd to a provincial synod , wherein the chief bishop of the province presided , and directed all affairs . here the ordination of bishops was usually perform'd , or where a synod could not conveniently be had , by as many bishops as could be got together , the rest * who were absent by writing under their hands testifying their consent , and the whole either actually manag'd by , or at least done by the allowance and confirmation of the chief bishop . here also criminal bishops were depos'd , and the same way of general suffrage observ'd : thus when cornelius and his synod at rome * had condemn'd and cast out novatian for his schismatical usurpation of that see , the bishops that were not present at the council , did by their letters ratify and subscribe that decree . viii . in reference to the affairs of churches abroad , they acted by a kind of mutual consociation , they communicated councils , interpos'd in differences , oppos'd the same common enemies , and upon all occasions afforded ready help and assistance to one another , that dilectio communis , that cyprian so often speaks of , * the common bond of love and charity obliging them to advise together , that so by joynt consultations things might be carried on to the best advantage of ecclesiastick administration . for they look'd upon themselves , he tells us , * as members of the same body of the church , though stretcht out into many several provinces , and that therefore they were bound to have care one of another , and to watch over the welfare of the whole body . upon a persons election to any of the greater sees , they were wont to send their congratulatory letters , to give him joy of that place , to signify their concurrence with his advancement to a share of the government of the church , and their communion with him in the faith. thus cyprian by letters * approv'd cornelius his election to the see of rome , which he did , he tells us according to divine tradition and ecclesiastick institution ; nay he sent to all the bishops of his province , requiring them by their letters to do the like . and when marcian bishop of arles was depos'd for his siding with novatian , cyprian wrote * to pope stephen to send him word who succeeded in that bishopprick , that so he might know to whom to direct his communicatory letters . when any person was duly excommunicated in on church , he could not be admitted to communion in another . thus when felicissimus , who had been excommunicated by cyprian and the african synod , fled to rome , * and came thither guarded with a potent faction , he found the doors shut against him , whereof cornelius advis'd cyprian by letters , which the good man commends as replenisht with brotherly love , ecclesiastick discipline , and episcopal censure . and when the legats of novatian ( who had procur'd himself to be irregularly ordain'd bishop of rome , for which he was synodically condemn'd ) came into africk , cyprian rejected them , * and utterly refus'd to receive them to communion . in short , no sooner did any extraordinary emergency arise , but notice was presently given of it to other churches , and advice return'd what was fit to be done in those matters , and all possible assistance afforded towards the dispatching of them . in all which transactions the bishop of rome was no otherwise considered than ( as all others were ) as a bishop of the catholick church , nor was his sentence any more regarded than that of other bishops . donatus à casis nigris accus'd * cecilian bishop of carthage to constantine the great . the emperour referr'd the case to pope melchiades , and three french bishops , together with whom assembled fifteen bishops of italy , who gave judgment against donatus . wherein as the pope acted as the emperours delegate , and had no more power than the rest of his collegues , so the sturdy african slighted his judgment , and appeal'd from it . constantine hereupon referrs the business to a synod at arles in france , ann. cccxiv . where the former sentence is again brought under examination , and this thought no injury or dishonour to the bishop of rome , nay , his legates in that council subscribed only in the fifth place , * as the subscriptions publisht by sirmoud out of an ancient copy , stand at this day . in short , 't is ingenuously confess'd by pope pius the second , * then cardinal , that before the time of the nicene council very little regard was had to the church of rome . by all which we see how the government of the church in those days was carried on ; bishops superintended the affairs of the church in every city and its adjacent territory , over them were metropolitans and provincial synods , and with foreign churches they transacted by a mutual agreement and confederation for the good of the whole , but without any coercive power over one another . chap. ii. the government of the church , and power of the bishops of rome , as 't is represented in the canons of the nicene council . the sixt canon of the synod of nice set down , with the occasion of it . seven observations drawn from that canon . i. that the larger bounds of ecclesiastick jurisdiction were the roman provinces . a province what . whither the countries in italy so called . ii. that the chief church-governour in every province was the metropolitan . the prudence and convenience of that way of government . patriarchs prov'd not to be intended in the nicene canon . iii. that the bishop of rome no less than the rest had his proper and limited metropolitical power . this own'd by some of the greatest champions of rome . iv. that the metropolitick sees of rome , alexandria and antioch were ever of the greatest note in the christian church , and of these rome the chief . the eminency of sees according to the greatness of the cities wherein they were planted . this gave precedency to the church of rome . the three sees of rome , alexandria and antioch ascrib'd to s. peter . blasphemous things spoken of the pope upon that account . primacy allow'd to the see of rome . no supremacy belonging to it . the christian church then knew of no such supereminent power . v. that the rights of the roman metropolitan were not due by any divine constitution , but by custome and the practice of the church . this plainly shew'd to be the sence of this , and other following councils . vi. that the ordination of provincial bishops was one of the prime rights and priviledges of every metropolitan within his own jurisdiction . the fourth , sixth and seventh canons of this council noted to that purpose . the same shew'd to be the determination of other synods . what other rights belong'd to metropolitans . vii . that this way of ecclesiastick administration was not any late novel institution , but founded upon ancient custome and practice . what this antiquity implies . the original of metropolitans briefly enquir'd into . several instances of this way of government noted in the second and third centuries . the word metropolitan not met with till the council of nice . but the thing long before . the sum of the observations upon this canon . in this condition stood things at that time when the great council assembled at nice , an. cccxxv . where what had hitherto been transacted only by custome and mutual consent , became then a law of the church . for alexander the venerable bishop of alexandria having complain'd to the synod , that the metropolitical rights of that see had been invaded by the irregular and ambitious attempts of meletius , the schismatical bishop of lycopolis in thebais , who during the late persecution had amongst other crimes taken upon him to ordain bishops , and to confer inferiour orders where-ever he came , the synod did not only depose meletius , and in a manner null his ordinations , but pass'd among others this following canon . let ancient customs still take place ; those that are in egypt , libya and pentapolis , that the bishop of alexandria have power over all these ; because such also is the custome of the bishop of rome . and accordingly in antioch , and in other provinces , let the priviledges be preserved to the churches . this also is altogether evident , that if any man be made a bishop without the consent of the metropolitan , this great synod decrees such a one to be no bishop . and if two or three , out of a contentious humour , shall oppose the common election duly and regularly made according to the canon of the church , let the majority of voices in this case prevail . in this canon , which has been the subject of infinite debate and controversie , there are several things very observable to our purpose , which every impartial unprejudicate reader will see do naturally flow from it . first , that the larger bounds of ecclesiastical jurisdiction at that time were concurrent with the roman provinces . secondly , that the chief church governour within every province was the metropolitan . thirdly , that the bishop of rome no less than the rest had his proper and limited metropolitical power . fourthly , that the metropolitick sees of rome , alexandria and antioch were ever of greatest note in the christian church , and of these rome the chief . fifthly , that the rights of the roman metropolitan were not due by any divine constitution , but flow'd only from custome and the practice of the church . sixthly , that the ordination of provincial bishops was one of the prime rights and priviledges of every metropolitan within his own jurisdiction . seventhly , that this way of ecclesiastick admiration was not any late novel institution , but was founded upon ancient custome and practice . all which observations i shall briefly explain and make good . 1. that the larger bounds of ecclesiastick jurisdiction were the roman provinces . every city , besides what was within its walls , and immediate suburbs , had usually some adjacent territory , whither its government did extend , as strabo * notes of nemausus or nismes , a city of the gallia narbonensis , that it had under it twenty four villages , all well peopled and inhabited , and so commonly in other places ; and these were the towns and villages ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as they are call'd in the ninth canon of antioch ) that were under the superintendency and jurisdiction of the city-bishop . but a province was a collection of many cities , with all the tracts and territories belonging to them ; and was greater or less according to the custome of places , or as the will of princes had set them out . augustus ( as strabo who lived about that time informs * us ) when he resolv'd to commit some parts of the empire to the immediate care of the senate , and to reserve the rest to himself , divided each moiety 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 into several provinces , and caus'd a rationarium or book to be made of it ( this he did out of the commentaries * of balbus , whom he had appointed to measure the several parts of the empire : ) some account of these provinces strabo there gives us , but a more full and particular account is given by dion cassius . * how these provinces stood divided in the following ages , especially from the times of constantine , is distinctly and accurately set down in the notitia imperii , compos'd under the reign of the younger theodosius . i observe no more then that if at augustus his settlement ( which is taken notice of , and objected by some * ) the countries in italy were not styl'd provinces , but regions , ( he divided it says pliny * into eleven regions ; whence italy and the provinces , and jus italicum , and jus provinciale are frequently distinguisht ) yet this distinction held not long , nor universally , the words being promiscuously us'd , as is evident from the scriptores rei agrariae ( some whereof if their titles bely them not , liv'd not long after augustus his age ) where we find more than once , the territory of the province of picenum , as well as the region of picenum , the province of apulia and calabria * , of valeria ‖ , of tuscia * , and the like . and for after ages , especially from the times of constantine , no man can doubt of it , that has but once lookt either into the justinian , or theodosian code . ii. that the chief church-governour within every province was the metropolitan , that is , the bishop that resided in the metropolis , or mother-city of the province . for as the preventing schism and disorder had necessitated provincial bishops ( who being all equal had no power one over the other ) to chuse one common president to umpire and determine differences , and manage those affairs which could not be done by every single bishop , so reason and conveniency , the example of the civil government , and the greatness of the place , pleaded for the bishop of the metropolis to be the person , who hence deriv'd the title of metropolitan . and this salmasius * himself , how ill a friend soever to the whole episcopal order , cannot but confess was wisely contriv'd , and that had but metropolitans contain'd themselves within their proper bounds , there could not have heen a more useful and laudable institution . his business was upon all important occasions synodically to summon together the bishops of his province , and therein to enquire into their miscarriages and misdemeanors , to judg of the contentions that arose between them , to ordain persons to vacant bishopricks , or at least to ratify their ordination , and to direct all transactions that were of greater and more general concernment . therefore the fathers of antioch take care , that forasmuch as all that have any business to dispatch , are forc'd to go to the metropolis , therefore the bishops in every province should own , honour and give precedence to the bishop that presided in the metropolis , and attempt nothing of moment without his concurrence , and this according to a more ancient canon derived to them from their fore-fathers . by the ancient canon here spoken of cannot be meant this of nice , which was but sixteen years before it , and therefore without doubt referrs to the xxxiv . canon of the apostles , which almost in the same words commands the bishops in every nation to own him who is first or chief amongst them , and to esteem him as head , and to do nothing of moment without his consent , which truly expresses the ancient practice of the church ; these apostolick canons being nothing else but a collection of rules and customes agreed upon in the first ages of christianity . for ( that i may note this by the way ) 't is vain to think , that a thing then first began to be , when we find it first mention'd or enjoyn'd by a synodal decree ; the canons in such cases being very oft expressive of a more ancient practice , which they then take notice of , or enforce , only because some extraordinary accidents at that time may have given particular occasion for it . as here at nice , in the case of the rights of metropolitans , which the canon mentions and resettles , only because meletius's usurpation had brought it into question . it had been long before an ancient custome , and having lately received some little shock , the church no sooner had an opportunity of meeting together in a general council , but it establisht these metropolitical priviledges by its oecumenical authority . there are , i know , and they too men of no mean name and note , both heretofore and of later times , who tell us , that this nicene canon is to be understood not of metropolitans , but patriarchs : but where does the council say , or so much as hint any such thing , the synod both here and in all other places constantly calls them metropolitans , and makes the bounds of their jurisdiction to be provinces , not diocesses . and indeed the word diocese , as relating to this extent of ecclesiastick government , was not in use till above an intire age after . nay perhaps at this time it was scarce in use for the larger division of countries in the civil state : for it was but about this time that constantine new modell'd the government , and brought in dioceses as comprehending several provinces under them . so that either here must be patriarchs without dioceses , or if the canon be meant ( as some explain it ) of metropolitani metropolitanorum , of some prime and principal metropolitans , that presided over the metropolitans of the several provinces within their jurisdiction , then 't is plain the synod must intend such whereever it mentions metropolitans , for it all along speaks of them as of the same . in the fourth canon it provides , that in every province a bishop ordain'd shall be confirm'd by the metropolitan ; which is necessarily to be restrain'd to proper provincial metropolitans . in this sixth canon it speaks more particularly , and because the metropolitick rights had been invaded in egypt , ordains that the bishop of alexandria , no less than he of rome , and that he of antioch , and the churches in all other provinces should still enjoy their ancient priviledges . where we see it speaks of them all without any difference in this respect as provincial churches . and thus the ancient version of this canon ( whereof more hereafter ) understood it , when it rendred it thus , in caeteris provinciis privilegia propria reserventur metropolitanis ecclesiis , that at antioch , and in the other provinces , the metropolitan churches should have their own priviledges . and to put the case out of doubt what the council meant , the canon adds in the close , that no bishop should be made without the consent of the metropolitan . nothing therefore can be more absurd , than to say , that patriarchs are meant in the former part of the canon , and metropolitans only in the latter , when as the canon it self makes no difference . and indeed were that the meaning , the grave and wise fathers of that council took an effectual course that posterity should never understand their mind . if we look into the following canon , that secures the rights of the metropolitan church of caesarea in palestine , and though it grants the next place of honour to the bishop of jerusalem , yet still it subjects him to his own metropolitan . and i suppose it will puzzle any man to give a wise reason , why the church of jerusalem ( for which the christian world ever had so great and so just a veneration ) should be subject to that of caesarea , but only that caesarea was the metropolis of that province , and so had been ever since the time of vespasian , and accordingly josephus says * 't was the greatest city in the country , and tacitus * calls it the head of judaea . so miserably does alexander aristinus blunder in his exposition of this canon , when by virtue of it he makes the bishop of jerusalem to become a patriarch , and yet withal to be subject to the metropolitan of caesarea , or , which is all one , that the metropolitan of caesarea should not hereby lose his ancient power and dignity . as if any patriarch , and much more one of the five greater , could be subject to a private metropolitan , or a metropolitan could have his ancient rights reserv'd to him , when at the same time a considerable part of them are taken from him . but patriarchs were not then heard , or so much as dreamt of in the church ; nothing being truer than what balsamon has observ'd * in this case , that anciently all the metropolitans of provinces were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 absolute and independent , and ordain'd by none but their own provincial bishops . iii. that the bishop of rome no less than the rest had his proper and limited metropolitical power . this is so evidently the sence of the canon , that few , who have otherwise will good enough , have yet the hardiness to oppose it . the sun it self is not clearer at noon-day , than that hereby the council design'd , that the bishop of alexandria should have the same power within his province , that the bishop of rome had in his . let the bishop of alexandria ( says the canon ) have all his ancient and accustomed powers and priviledges in egypt , libya and pentapolis , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 since , or forasmuch as the bishop of rome has the like custome , that is , ( as a learned and zealous champion * for the popes supremacy does yet with great ingenuity expound it ) that he and none but he should exercise jurisdiction within his own bounds ; as the alexandrian bishop has prescrib'd limits to his diocess , so also has he of rome : and as he of rome manages the affairs of his own diocess without the interposal or medling of any other person , so we will that he of alexandria shall have the same power , and that none shall obstruct him in the exercise of it . the canon then makes a double comparison between these two metropolitans , the one respecting the extent of their jurisdiction , that one was confin'd and limited as well as the other ; the other the fulness of their power , which they might exercise within their respective limits , and that none might presume to invade or hinder it , but by the same right by which the roman prelate govern'd his churches , by the same might he of alexandria the churches subject to him . one of the greek scholiasts * summs up the canon into these words . let the bishop of alexandria have power over egypt , libya and pentapolis : and the roman bishop over those places that are subject to rome . harmenopulus * expresses it in somewhat more general terms : let the ancient customes of arch-bishops still prevail , and every one have power over his own province . i enquire not now what were the peculiar bounds , within which the power of the bishops of rome was terminated . 't is enough at present , that whether larger or narrower , limits he had , which he might not regularly pass , and that the church of rome was in those days accounted a particular church , and as much a member of the church universal , as alexandria , antioch , or that of any other province . iv. that the metropolitick sees of rome , alexandria and antioch , were ever of greatest note in the christian church , and of these rome the chief . hence they are here particularly named , while others are dismist with an et caetera , and rome as the most eminent , made the exemplar according to which the rights of alexandria were to be recovered and resettled . 't were impertinent to shew that respect was always paid to places proportionable to their temporal power and greatness ; s. cyprian * long since told us , that the reason why rome had the precedency of carthage , was pro magnitudine sua , because 't was the greater city . and 't were as endless as 't is needless to prove , that the places mention'd in this canon were capital cities of the empire : rome was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( as athanasius styles * it ) the metropolis , or chief city of the roman world , it had for several ages been the governing city , and was still the seat of empire , the greatness whereof the geographical poet * has no less briefly than elegantly thus summ'd up . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 rome triumphs in th' imperial seat , and is wealth 's store-house , and the world's metropolis . alexandria besides the vastness of the place , numerousness of its inhabitants , the riches and plenty of its traffick , was the seat of the imperial vice-roy , call'd the augustal prefect : indeed it was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 * the second city under the sun , that is , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as aristides * styles it , the greatest next to rome ; and thence by ancient writers * emphatically call'd the city . antioch was frequently the court of emperors , constantly the residence of their lieutenants , the most ancient , rich and populous city of the east , commonly styl'd antioch the great : now the greatness of these places added a proportionable reputation to their several bishops , it being but reasonable that they should 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( as the fathers at antioch speak * ) precede others in honour , who presided in the most eminent and honourable cities . and because rome was confessedly the greatest and noblest city of the empire , hence the church there had an honourary precedency before all others , and the bishops of it in all publick meetings and consultations had the first place allowed them , and upon all occasions a mighty deference and respect paid to them , and their favour was courted , and addresses made to them from all parts . and in this sence 't is plain the ancients understood the honour due to the roman bishop . when the council of constantinople decrees , * that the bishop of that city shall have the next place to him of rome , for that constantinople was new rome , it sufficiently shews upon what foundation the precedency of the roman prelate stood . and that of chalcedon * much more expresly , that the cause why the fathers gave priviledges to the see of old rome was , because that was the imperial city . and in pursuance of these canons ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) the emperour justinian enacts , * that the bishop of old rome should be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the first of all bishops . i know there are , ‖ who place the eminency of these three great sees upon another bottom , and tell us it was , because they were all founded by s. peter , two of them by himself , and that of alexandria by the ministry of s. mark his peculiar disciple , sent thither by his immediate direction and authority : and the assertion further improv'd , that these three cities being severally the chief cities of the three then known parts of the world , europe , asia and africa , thence it follows that the government of these three great churches , and in them of the whole christian world is lodg'd in s. peters successour , and 't is added * ( with greater boldness shall i say , or blasphemy ? ) that s. peter herein exprest a lively representation both of the unity of the godheads , and of the holy trinity , and that as 't is but one and the same episcopal office that is in a bishop , a metropolitan , and a patriarch , so a trinity of patriarchs meets in the unity of the pope ; so that in the see of the prince of the apostles , there is an unity in trinity , and a trinity in unity . but where men can suffer their wits want only to sport at this rate ( though 't is gravely brought in by way of argument , by some otherwise learned enough ) 't is no wonder , that nothing should be stuck at , true or false , that may serve their cause . but i spare any farther censure of this authour , finding by his life * ( publisht since the writing of these papers ) that he repented afterwards of so hasty and inconsiderate an undertaking , and oft intended to have brought that work under a review and castigation . and indeed any man may at first sight discern 't was the issue of a juvenile heat , and wanted the corrections of calmer and maturer thoughts . but perhaps it might prove no such easie task to make it out that s. peter founded those three sees , and if he did , that any such authority as is claim'd , is thence deriv'd to the see of rome . antioch and alexandria did always maintain their jurisdiction independent , though the popes frequently inculcated their being originally instituted by s. peter , as a kind of obligation to rome , and that which reflected the greatest honour upon those churches . and the fathers we see found their preheminence upon the glory and majesty of their cities , and none more expresly than that of rome , the bishop whereof was therefore honoured , caress'd and add rest unto , because bishop of rome . and had he contented himself with that place and deference which the fathers gave him , and not broken down inclosures , and trampled over the heads of his brethren , we should neither have envied , nor denied it . and though perhaps it might admit some dispute , whether rome having for so many ages lost the honor of being the imperial city , the privileges conferr'd upon that church , upon that account , ought not in reason to abate proportionably ; yet we are willing to grant , what genuine antiquity did allow , that the bishop of that place containing himself within primitive rules and orders , should be esteemed the most honourable among all christian bishops , that he should be first , but not lord , much less tyrant over his brethren . the priviledges assign'd him by the ancient canons , were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( says a late learned patriarch of alexandria * ) priviledges of honour , not conveyances of a tyrannical power to make or abrogate laws as he pleases . and therefore suppose the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the primacy of the church of rome ( mention'd in the beginning of this sixt nicene canon , as 't is quoted by paschasinus the popes legate in the council of chalcedon ) were granted , yet who knows not that there is a primacy of order as well as power ; a primacy amongst equals ; and such 't is plain was that which the ancient councils did assign him , not an universal , monarchical , uncontroulable power and supremacy over the whole christian church , which would have fundamentally destroy'd the very design of this nicene canon , which makes the bishops of alexandria , antioch , the other provinces , independent , and as supream within their own limits , as the pope is in his . is there no difference between precedency and supremacy , between dignity and dominion ? let the roman church be the head of all churches ( as 't is sometimes styl'd by the ancients , and frequently challeng'd by the popes ) 't is so only in an honourary sence , and in that respect other churches , especially that of * constantinople , have the same title given to them . where then shall we find the soveraign , arbitrary , and unbounded power of the bishop of rome ? and where , but in the pride , ambition and usurpation of that see ? certain i am it has not the least footing in this or any other ancient council . nor can it be suppos'd , that had the fathers of this venerable synod known of any such supereminent power of the roman bishop , as is now pretended to ( and know it they must , if there had been any , meeting from all parts of the world ) we cannot suppose , i say , they would have given the bishops of alexandria , antioch , &c. equal power within their respective provinces , without inserting into the canon a salvo to the supreme rights and prerogatives of the see of rome , especially when we find them in the very next canon , giving the bishop of jerusalem an honourable session , but still with a proviso to preserve the rights of the metropolitan of that province . v. that the rights of the roman metropolitan were not due by any divine constitution , but flow'd only from custome and the practice of the church . this is here laid down as one of the main foundations upon which the whole body of the canon is built , the right here convey'd not being divine institutions , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ancient customs , introduc'd by time and use and a wise contrivance . which is not only the case of metropolitans in general , but is particularly applied to him of rome , it being ( says the canon ) the custome for the bishop of rome to have such metropolitick power . had these good fathers known of any peculiar commission given by christ to peter , and in him to the bishop of rome , to be his supream and universal bishop upon earth , to govern his church by a despotical unaccountable power , or that our lord had but so much as authorized and appointed him to be superiour to all the bishops within the roman province , it had been hard , not to say unjust and unreasonable in them to conceal it , and an irreparable injury to that church , to derive its authority from any meaner original . an injury , which we cannot conceive but that the popes legates , who were then in council , must have immediately entred their protest against . but the christian world was as yet unacquainted with such notions , and the popes then either did not claim any such power , or to be sure durst not challenge it in that assembly , where they knew it must be shamefully baffled and rejected . what power soever our lord or his apostles convey'd to bishops , this is certain , that all bishops as such stand upon a common level , and that superiority and subordination among them is meerly from humane positive institution , borrowed from the forms in the civil state , and with great reason brought in to comply with the conveniencies and necessities of the church . and to this the fathers usually refer it . thus we see they here determined the case of metropolitans . and in the following canon the bishop of jerusalem's taking place next to his metropolitan before all the other bishops of that province , is ascrib'd to custome , and ancient tradition . in the council of ephesus the bishop of antioch was complain'd of for invading the rights of the metropolitan of cyprus , in deciding whereof the fathers affirm , * it would be sufficient prejudice to his cause , if he had not ancient custome on his side : and having determin'd the case against him , decree , that every province should enjoy those original rights pure and inviolable , which had been deriv'd to them by long continuance , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , according as the power of ancient custome had prevail'd . and when some years after by reason of the incursions of the barbarous people , the metropolitan of cyprus was forc't to remove to nova justinianopolis in the hellespont , the fathers of the sixt council in trullo confirm'd * his rights to him , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , according to ancient custome : for the holy fathers ( say they ) have determin'd , that customs should be preserv'd in every church . vi. that the ordination of provincial bishops was one of the prime rights and priviledges of every metropolitan within his own jurisdiction . no man in those days was bound to go beyond his own metropolis , much less did they know of any obligation to seek to rome either for consecration , or confirmation . and for this the laws of the church are as express and peremptory as words could make them . our great council had made provision herein by their fourth canon , that a bishop should be ordain'd by all the bishops in the province : but because pers haps business , or distance , might render that inconvenient , and sometimes impossible , they decree that it should be done by three , the rest testifying their consent in writing ; and that the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the validity of what was done , should be from the confirmation of the metropolitan in every province . and because the case of meletius was then before them , and had rais'd a mighty noise and clamour , they again establish this matter in the close of the sixth canon by way of recapitulation , that whoever should be made bishop without the consent of his metropolitan , his ordination should be null and void , and that if any doubt and dispute arose in this case , the majority of votes should carry it : accordingly in their synodical epistle * to the church of alexandria they tell them , they had taken care about the election of their bishops , and that it must be with the concurrence and confirmation of the bishop of alexandria . this constitution we find unanimously ratified by almost all following councils ; by that of antioch a most expresly , by that of laodicea b , by that of sardica c , by the second d and fourth e councils of carthage , by the general council of chalcedon f , who take notice of the neglect of some metropolitans in delaying the ordinations of their provincial bishop ; and in the particular controversie between anastasius of nice , and eunomius of nicomedia g , they all with one voice ratify the nicene canon . in all which canons , and infinite more that might be mention'd , there is not the least intimation given of any prerogative peculiar to the bishop of rome , or that he has any power to take this right out of the hands of the respective metropolitans . nor is ordination the only priviledge which the synod of nice vests in metropolitans , for though they more particularly insist upon this , because meletius had given such fresh occasion by violating the metropolitan rights of alexandria , yet in the beginning of the sixt canon they establish their priviledges in general , that they should have 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 all the ancient powers and priviledges that belong'd to their churches in every province . what these were , practice and the subsequent canons of the church do inform us ; to take care that vacant sees were well supplied , to call provincial synods , to disperse canons there agreed on for the common good , to end controversies between their bishops , to admonish the unruly , to censure and suspend the irreregular , to give communicatory letters to their provincial bishops that were to go into foreign parts , and such like . in short , the synod of antioch ( than which perhaps none ever made wiser and better rules for the government and discipline of the church ) order * the bishops of every province not only to honour their metropolitan , but to do nothing of moment without his consent . lastly , i observe hence , that this way of ecclesiastick administration was not any late novel institution , but was founded upon ancient custome and practice . 't was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , says the canon most expresly . how far this antiquity does extend , it is not easie precisely to determine . salmasius * himself grants it for an hundred years before the synod of nice : and we would not have thankt him for a larger concession , had the state of things before that council been as clearly transmitted to us , as they were afterwards . indeed the records and writings of those early ages are generally lost , and the defending christianity from the assaults of heathens on the one side , and hereticks on the other , take up the far greatest part of those few that remain . so that little light is afforded us to discover the originals of particular churches , and to trace out the gradual advances of polity and church-discipline . whether the apostles themselves fixt a superiour bishop in every metropolis of the civil state , as some will have it ; or whether the apostles only form'd the scheme and draught , but left it to following ages to erect and set it up , as de marca * thinks , i leave it to the reader , who is curious about these matters , to weigh their arguments , and then pass his sentence . to me it seems probable that it actually commenc'd not long after the apostolick age , when sects and schisms began to break in apace , and when the apostles who were the supream governours and moderators being remov'd off the stage , and controversies multiplying between particular bishops , it was found necessary to pitch upon one in every province , to whom the umpirage of cases might be referr'd , and by whom all common and publick affairs might be directed . in the declining part of the second century we find philip styl'd * not only bishop of the diocess of gortyna , ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) but also of all the rest of the churches or dioceses ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) in crete , among which pinytus is reckon'd bishop of the parochia of gnossus . towards the latter end of the same century we find several provincial synods conven'd for determining the paschal controversie * : pope victor presided in that at rome ; in that of palestine , theophilus bishop of caesarea , and narcissus of jerusalem ; where narcissus is joyn'd with theophilus , because the bishop of jerusalem had ever the place of honour next to his metropolitan of caesarea , and this ( say our nicene fathers ) from custome and ancient tradition . polycrates bishop of ephesus , at the request of victor summon'd a synod of the bishops of asia ( i. e. of the lydian or proconsular asia , whereof ephesus was the metropolis ) wherein he was president , who all subscrib'd his opinion , as he tells us in his letter to pope victor . in france there was a convention 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , of the bishops of the several gallick dioceses , wherein irenaeus bishop of the metropolis of lyons was chief moderator . bacchylus also bishop of corinth ( that was a metropolis too ) held a synod of the bishops of achaia ( if s. jerome * understand eusebius aright ) and in their name wrote an epistle about this matter . this the author of the ancient synodicon * calls a provincial synod , and expresly styles bacchylus arch-bishop of corinth . how oft does s. cyprian * mention his province , and his fellow-bishops in it , to whom he communicated affairs of the church , and commanded ( mandavimus is his own word ) their help and assistance : and this province no mean one neither , as extending over africk properly so call'd , numidia , and the two mauritania's . nor can i see any reason with salmasius * to understand it of the civil province , especially when the best reason he gives , is , that the power of primates or metropolitans was not yet in force , which is a plain and shameful begging of the question . indeed if he means it only of the title , by which they were call'd , i grant that the word metropolitan is very rarely , if perhaps at all , to be found in any authentick writer before the time of the nicene council : they were in those days styl'd 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the first bishops , and the heads of provinces , ( as is plain from the xxxiv . apostolick canon ) i. e they were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the chief bishops that resided in the several metropoles , as zonaras truly expounds that canon . but whatever becomes of the title , the thing it self is plain to all that are not byass'd by prejudice and partiality , that there was a superiour bishop in every province , resident at the metropolis , who partly by himself , partly by the assistance of his provincial bishops meeting in council , usually manag'd all the more important church-affairs within that province . the sum in short of this great nicene canon amounts to this that the greater limits of ecclesiastick jurisdiction were concurrent with the provinces of the roman empire , that the prime governours within those bounds were the metropolitans , and though some were more honourable than others , by reason of the eminency of their episcopal stations , yet that every metropolitan had a free and independent power of ordination , and steering the main affairs of the church within that province ; that the bishop of rome had the same , and no more within the roman province ; a power not granted by any immediate commission , or divine authority , but introduc't for conveniency , and setled by custome and long continuance . chap. iii. the extent of the bishop of romes jurisdiction , considered as a metropolitan . a search into the proper bounds of the roman bishop . his power four-fold , episcopal , metropolitical , patriarchal , apostolical . the first not controverted . the last discharg'd as extravagant and groundless , and as frequently baffled , both by the reformed , and greek church . l. allatius's jeer of his country-men . his metropolitical jurisdiction considered as concurrent with that of the provost of rome . that how great , and how far extending . the suburbicary regions what . sicily no part of the urbicary regions . the usual conformity between the extent of the civil and ecclesiastick jurisdiction in those times . the power of the roman metropolitan confin'd within an hundred miles of rome . rufinus his exposition of the suburbicary churches . greatly quarrell'd at by the romish writers . his authority in other cases allow'd sufficient and unquestionable . his book approv'd by pope gelasius and others . no probability of his being mistaken in the sence of the canon , or the extent of the roman metropolitanship , or the suburbicary churches . his explication confirm'd by most ancient interpreters of this canon . the bishops of rome and italy distinct . the bishop of milan ranckt with him of rome . the objection of the bishop of romes being confin'd to so narrow a compass , considered and answered . the majores dioeceses in the epistle of the synod of arles what . the bounds of the roman bishops shew'd to have been heretofore small from an ancient notitia episcopatuum . the fraud in the first publication of that notitia . morinus noted . the greatness of rome equivalent to a large extent . i. thus far then we have gain'd ; that the bishop of rome as well as the rest was bounded within his metropolitical province ; the council supposing this as the ground of its constitution , that the bishop of alexandria should have jurisdiction over all within his province , as the bishop of rome had in his . 't is true , the council does not assign the proper limits of the roman metropolitanship , as it does that of alexandria , there being a more particular reason why it should specify the latter , that being the subject under debate , and the main , if not only occasion of the canon ; we must therefore search it out some other way . and here we are told * of a three-fold power vested in the pope ; episcopal , patriarchal , and apostolical ; or as others * distinguish a little more accurately , he may be considered under a four-fold capacity , as a bishop , as a metropolitan , as a patriarch , and lastly as pope , or as he is the vicar of christ , and head of the universal church . in which capacity he is not only more honourable than all other bishops and patriarchs , but has full authority over them , to consecrate , confirm , or depose them , yea when he pleases , to suppress old , and to erect new episcopal sees . hereby ( they tell us ) he is constituted judge over all churches in the world , and may at pleasure visit , govern , and give laws to them . for the first of these , as he is a private bishop , we have no controversie with him : and for the last , his supreme and apostolical power over the whole christian church ; 't is so wild and extravagant a claim , so groundless and precarious , so utter a stranger to scripture and primitive antiquity , that it 's needless to take pains in the refuting of it . nay , the popes themselves how desirous soever to amplify their own power , have not yet dar'd to challenge it where they knew it would be disputed or denied . in the discourse that past between constantius and pope liberius about the condemnation of athanasius , the emperour askt him , * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , what great part of the world are you , that you only should take his part ? and that ( as he urges a little before ) when the whole world had past sentence upon him . the proper answer to which ( had liberius known of any such power ) had been this . i only am intrusted by christ with supream authority over the whole church , and i having acquitted him , 't is no matter though the whole world besides has condemn'd him . and so no doubt he would have answered , had he been aware of any such prerogative affixt to his see. but popes had not then set this claim on foot , nor 't is like dreamt of it , nor if they had , was the world as yet dispos'd to receive it . something we said to this before , when we considered the bishop of rome as standing uppermost among the metropolitans mention'd in the nicene canon . to add more , were a vain , and impertinent loss of time ; especially after so much as has been said upon this argument , both by the writers of the greek church , ( alexius aristinus , zonar as , balsamon , matthaeus blastares , pet. antiochenus , macarius ancyranus , demetrius chomatenus , barlaam , nilus thessalonicensis , nicetus seidus , nilus doxopatrius , geo. coressius , gabriel philadelphensis , maximus margunius , meletius alexandrinus , &c. whom leo allatius * in a scornful insultation over the deplorable state of his own country is pleas'd to style graecanica ingenia , the witts of greece ) and by them of the reform'd religion , and by some too of their own church , by whom all pleas and pretences to this power have been so often and so shamefully baffled , that a man would wonder if at this time of the day they should be again rallied , and brought into open field . it remains then that we consider him in his metropolitical , and patriarchal capacity . ii. and first we shall enquire what were the bounds of his metropolitical power . and the best measures we can take in this matter , will be to enquire into the extent of the civil jurisdiction of the provost of rome , with which that that of the roman prelate must run parallel , no man can doubt , that considers the course of things in those times , when in this respect the church and the state went so fairly hand in hand . a thing not only affirm'd by protestants , but granted by the most learned and zealous writers of the church of rome . let us therefore consider first how the case stood in the civil state. the prefect of rome was an officer of great antiquity , instituted in the very infancy of that state , while govern'd by kings , but being only of a pro tempore-use , was never made fixt and ordinary till augustus , who being much engag'd in foraign wars , appointed a magistrate , who might in the interim supply his room , manage his affairs , and administer justice at home . his publick appearances were very pompous and stately , and he had several great officers under him , as may be seen in the notitia imperii . the greatest persons in the city were not exempt from his power , for calling five persons of the senatorian order to his assistance , he might try and pass sentence upon the head of a senator himself . his government extended not only to rome , but to an hundred miles round about it , where the limits of his jurisdiction ceas'd , as is expresly said in a rescript a of the emperour severus . ditioni suae non solum roma commissa ( quamvis in illa contineantur universa ) verum etiam intra centesimum miliarium potestatem te protendere , antiqua jura voluerunt , as his patent runs in b cassiodore . within this compass were several countries , which partly from their lying round about , partly from their subjection to , and dependance upon the praefecture of rome , were usually styl'd urbicariae c and suburbicariae d , and suburbanae regiones e , sometimes also regiones solitae f , the countries within which the governour of rome was wont to exercise his solemn jurisdiction , and vicinae regiones g , countries that lie next to the city . and these i doubt not are those four regions mention'd in a law h of constantine m. directed to orfitus praefect of the city . iii. this circumference salmasius conceives * ( though herein stiffly oppos'd by his learned antagonist ) to be the romana regio , mention'd in an old inscription at nola , and by the historian ( as he corrects * him out of an ancient manuscript ) in the life of probus , where 't is oppos'd to verona , benacum , and other regions of italy ; and that this was the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the region of the romans , spoken of by ignatius in the front of his epistle to that church . what these four regions were , mention'd in the law of constantine , is not agreed by those that have searcht furthest into this matter . gothofred * makes them to have been tuscia suburbicaria ( another part of it being call'd annonaria ) picenum suburbicarium ( to distinguish it from the annonarium ) and of these there is no doubt : the other two he makes to be latium vetus , and latium novum , lying south of rome , and extending as far as sinuessa upon the river safo , which divided beween latium and campania . salmasius * will have the latium vetus and novum to have been but one and the same , and which was afterwards call'd campania latina , and to fill up the number , substitutes the province of valeria , so call'd from the valerian way , that lay through it . another french lawyer , * who takes upon him in less than half a sheet of paper ( which he publisht on purpose ) to state the controversie , will have five of the eleven regions ( into which pliny tells us augustus the emperour divided italy ) to belong to this , viz. the first , fourth , fifth , sixth and seventh , as those that lay next the city , and were bounded with the rivers tifernus and silarus on the east , and marca and constantinum on the west . but herein he offers no other evidence than his own conjecture . sirmondus * ( and others after him ) extends the number of the suburbicary countries to ten , which he makes the same with the ten provinces , that were under the vicarius urbicus , and to have thence taken their denomination . but there are two things amongst many others that lye strongly in prejudice of that opinion , and with me turn the scales . first , that some of these ten provinces , especially the three islands of sicily , sardinia and corsica lay too remote to come under the notion of suburbicary regions : for urbicarium , and suburbicarium , suburbanum , and suburbicum all importing the same thing ( as the learned jerom aleander * readily grants ) must necessarily imply their lying within some tolerable neighbourhood to the city . secondly , that sicily , one of the ten provinces belonging to the vicarius urbicus , is most expresly distinguish'd * from the urbicary regions , and as equally as 't is from italy , strictly so call'd , that is , the seven provinces that constituted the italick diocess . a case so clear , that sirmond * though he endeavours to say something to it , yet 't is so thin and trifling , that it rather shews he had a good mind to answer it , than that his answer would ever hold water . others * are willing to suggest , as if in that law of constantius , illyricum ought to be read instead of sicily : but this is thrown in only as a conjecture , and that too against all reason , illyricum belonging at that time to another jurisdiction . for by the famous distribution * which constantine the great made of the parts and offices of the empire , illyricum was under a praetorian prefect of its own , and so i suppose continued all the time of constantius ( in the latter part of whose reign this law was made ) though afterwards a great part of it was laid to the command of the praetorian prefect of italy . but morinus * like a young and daring champion that was resolv'd to do the work , is for quite dashing it out of the body of the law , as a word contrary to the usage of that time . all which shuffling artifices are a shrew'd sign it was a bad cause they had to manage . in short , though men of learning may by tricks and subtilty intangle and perplex an argument ( as they have done in this controversie ) yet two things are plain beyond all just exception . first , that the jurisdiction of the city-praefect reacht an hundred miles about rome . secondly , that the urbicary and suburbicary regions lay chiefly , and in all likelyhood , intirely within that compass , and deriv'd that title from their vicinity to the city , and their immediate dependance upon the government of its provost . and i cannot but a little wonder that sirmond , who more than once grants * the praefect of rome to have had jurisdiction within an hundred miles , should yet as often deny * , that he had any provinces under his government , as if there had been no provinces within that compass , when they are expresly call'd the suburbanae provinciae in the theodosian code * , and the ordinary judges in those parts commanded to return all greater causes to the tribunal of the city-praefect , and this in contradistinction to the course of other provinces , which were to be accountable to the praetorian praefect . iv. having thus found out the jurisdiction of the roman praefect , it should one would think be no hard matter to discover that of the bishop of rome , there being so known a correspondence between the civil and ecclesiastical government of those days . and though this did not always , nor universally take place ( and how should it , when time , and the will of princes made such alterations in the bounds of places and provinces ? ) yet did it generally obtain . a thing introduc'd at first for greater conveniency , founded upon long custome , and settled by several laws and canons of the church , insomuch that if a change or alteration had been , or should hereafter be made by imperial authority in any city , that then the order of episcopal sees should follow the civil and political forms , as is expresly provided by two general councils , the one of chalcedon * , the other of constantinople * . nor can any reason be given , why the bishop of alexandria should exercise a pastoral authority over three such large provinces , as egypt , libya and pentapolis , but only because they were under the civil government of the praefectus augustalis , the imperial vice-roy , who kept his residence in that city . the jurisdiction then of the bishop of rome being of equal circumference with that of the roman provost , must extend to all the city-provinces , that lay within an hundred miles round about it . accordingly we find that when great disturbances were made in the church of rome by the manichees , and other hereticks and schismaticks , valentinian the third writes * to faustus praefect of rome to expel them all out of the city ; but especially to proceed against those who separated themselves from the communion of the venerable pope , and whose schism did infect the people ; commanding him , that if upon warning given they should not within twenty days reconcile themselves , he should banish them one hundred miles out of the city ; that so they might be punisht with their self-chosen solitude and separation . the emperour thinking it but just , that they who had voluntarily rejected , should be themselves cast out of the bounds of his jurisdiction , that they who had perverted many in the capital city , should not be left within any part of his diocess to infect the people . and this was done in compliance with the course observ'd in civil cases , where notorious malefactours were so us'd . thus symmachus * the gentile was for his insolence banish'd an hundred miles out of rome . and some ages before that , severus having cashiered the souldiers that murdered the emperour pertinax , banisht * them , and charg'd them at the peril of their heads not to come within an hundred miles of rome , that is , within the limits of the city-praefecture . and more plainly yet , in the case of ursicinus , who had rais'd infinite stirs at rome about the choice of pope damasus , and had set up himself as competitor in that election , for which he had been banish'd into france , valentinian the elder afterwards ( as appears by his rescript * directed to ampelius the city-provost ) gave him and his companions leave to return into italy , provided they came not to rome , nor any place within the suburbicary regions , that is , within the jurisdiction of the roman bishop . but rufinus has put the case beyond all question , who in his short paraphrase ( for for a translation we may be sure he never intended it ) of the sixt nicene canon , tells * us , that according to ancient custome , as he of alexandria had in egypt , so the bishop of rome had the care and charge of the suburbicary churches . the champions of the roman church finding themselves sorely pinch'd with this authority , have no other way to relieve themselves but to throw it quite off their necks , and to fall foul upon rufinus , loading him with all the hard names and characters of reproach , charging him with malice , falshood , ignorance , want of learning , and indeed what not . but the world is not now to be taught that rufinus was a man of parts and learning , witness the reputation which his works had of old , and still have to this day . pope gelasius with his synod of seventy bishops allow'd * them ( the case only of free-will excepted : ) and among the rest his ecclesiastical history , wherein this very nicene canon is extant , and gives him too the title of a religious man into the bargain . so that rufinus his exposition has the popes own approbation on its side . and surely if ever his judgment be infallible , it is , when he has his council about him to advise and assist him . and though perhaps that gelasian synod , if searcht into , may not be of that authentick credit , as to lay any considerable stress upon it , yet however it stands good against them , that own its authority , and thereby approve its determination . and though it had not given this testimony to rufinus , yet there wants not other evidence that the thing was so . accordingly hincmar of rhemes , speaking of this very book of rufinus whence this passage is taken , assures us * , it was one of those that were receiv'd in the catalogue of the apostolick see. nay , his ecclesiastical history obtain'd such credit , that it was wont solemnly to be appeal'd * to by fathers and councils in some of the most weighty and important cases of the church . v. nor is there any shadow of probability , that he should be mistaken either in the sence of the nicene canon , or in the province of the bishop of rome . he was himself an italian , born not above twenty years after the synod of nice , baptiz'd , and perhaps born at aquileia , a famous city of friuli , ( honoured heretofore with the residence of augustus and some other emperours , and made afterwards a metropolis , and the seat of the praetorian prefect ) and himself a presbyter of that church : he had been frequently conversant at rome , had travell'd over most parts of the christian world , and had convers'd with persons of the greatest note and eminency in every place . in all which respects he could no more mistake the jurisdiction of the see of rome , than we can suppose , that a prebend of york born and bred in the church of england , should be ignorant how far the province of canterbury does extend . nor can there be the least reason to imagine , either that by suburbicary churches rufinus should mean any other , than what lay within those provinces , that were universally known by that title , or that he should dare so openly , and in the face of the world to shut up the bishop of rome within those suburbicary regions , had not his power at the time of the nicene council ( whose canon he must in all reason be suppos'd to explain as things stood at the time of that synod ) been notoriously known to have been confin'd within those limits . but what need we take pains to vindicate the credit of our witness ? he stands not alone in this matter , his testimony being sufficiently justified by concurrent evidence . the ancient version of the nicene canons ( publish'd by sirmond * out of the records of the vatican , and another exactly agreeing with it by mons. justell , from a very ancient manuscript ) the author whereof was perhaps not much later than rufinus , renders it by suburbicaria loca , the suburbicary places ; the three arabick versions , the alexandrian , that of the melchites , and the paraphrase of joseph the egyptian , all express it to the same effect , that he should have power over his countries and provinces , and what ever lay next to him : alex. aristenus , and sim. logotheta , two greek canonists , and a third ancient epitomizer of the canons , mention'd by leo allatius * , by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the places and provinces that lay under rome , i. e. the suburbicary countries . nor will it a little contribute to the further clearing of this matter , to observe , that as the civil government of the roman provost is distinguish'd from that of italy in the writings of those times , so is this of the roman prelate : and this distinction very ancient . when paul of samosata bishop of antioch refus'd to give domnus possession of that church , an appeal was made to the emperour aurelian , who referr'd the decision of the case to the bishops of italy and of rome , as eusebius * tells us : and in the title of the letter written by the sardican synod to the church of alexandria , 't is said , * that the bishops assembled from rome and italy , i. e. italy taken in its strict and peculiar notion , as 't is there distingusht from campania , calabria , &c. thence milan as being head of the italick dioces , is in an ecclesiastick sence call'd * the metropolis of italy , and dionysius bishop of that church styl'd * bishop of the metropolis of italy , and sulpitius severus speaking of priscilian and his company coming into italy , says * they address'd themselves to damasus bishop of rome , and ambrose of milan , as bishops that had the greatest authority in those days . and in this respect in the civil sence berterius * truly makes rome to be the metropolis of the suburbicary regions , as milan was of the rest of italy . vi. but it seems no small prejudice to the great men of that church , that so venerable a person as the bishop of rome should be pent up within such narrow limits , much inferiour to many others , especially him of alexandria or antioch . but besides that the eastern dioceses ( as some think ) were generally larger than those of the west , the ecclesiastick provinces ( as we noted before ) were restrain'd to the form of the civil constitution , and were more or fewer , as it happened in the political distribution : wherein if the roman bishop had not so large an extent as some others , yet was it made up in the number , and frequency of episcopal sees , beyond what was in all those times in other places of the like extent . and therefore when the synod at arles in their letter * to pope sylvester , say that he did majores dioeceses tenere ( a passage frequently quoted by the writers of the roman church ) possess greater dioceses ; besides , that the place as salmasius * observes is very corrupt , and affords no currant sence , 't is plain that the word diocess there cannot be understood of patriarchal dioceses ( constantine not having yet made the division of the empire , nor dioceses come up in a civil , much less in an ecclesiastical sence ) and must therefore be meant of single bishopricks , in the modern use of the word , and which was not unusual in those days , as is evident from the code of the african church , and the conference between the catholicks and donatists at carthage , where nothing is more common and obvious than this usage of the word diocess , for a single episcopal see ; the places * are too numerous to be reckon'd up . and thus also . pope leo uses * the word in the case of restitutus an african bishop . vii . and indeed that the bounds of the church of rome for several ages after the nicene council were much narrower than some others , appears from an old greek notitia episcopatuum , wherein the five patriarchates are distinctly reckon'd up , with all the provinces and bishopricks contain'd under them . where under him of rome , are set down no more than six provinces ( whereof the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the province of urbicary rome is the first ) containing not above one hundred and eight episcopal sees . a number far inferiour to the rest , especially the patriarch of constantinople , who had subject to him xxxiii provinces , and in them ccclxxxix bishopricks , besides some others then newly added to him . this notitia had been heretofore publisht by carolus a s. paulo in his geographia sacra , but when he came to that part of it that concerns the diocess of rome , he quite leaps over it , pretending the manuscript copy to be imperfect , and that the words were so corrupted , that scarce any one remain'd entire ; leaving somewhat more than a bare suspicion , that he himself , or some before him had purposely rac'd the manuscript , least the nakedness of the country , the thinness and smallness of the roman diocess in comparison of others , should be discovered . but to their great confusion it has been lately publish'd * intire and perfect out of the oxford library , where the account that we have given is plain and notorious . all which considered , with how little reason and pretence to truth does morinus * appeal to the ecclesiastick notitia's , even such as were made long after the times of constantine , to prove the amplitude of the roman province , as to the jurisdiction of the bishop of rome . but to return , there can be no reason to expect , that the ecclesiastick limits in those days should be longer than those of the state , which were the standard and measure , by which the others were ordinarily regulated . nor is the greatness of any jurisdiction so much to be measured by the largeness of its extent , as by the honor and authority of the place , where 't is exercised ; as that of the lord mayor of london , though reaching no further than the liberties of the city , ( which take not in half the suburbs ) is yet a more honourable authority , than that of a sheriff of the largest county in england . in this regard the bishop of rome had though a shorter cut , a better and more noble jurisdiction , than any other prelate in the world besides ; rome being the seat of majesty and power , the residence of the emperours , the highest court of justice , the place to which all parts paid either homage , or at least respect and veneration , honoured with the title of rome the great , the provost whereof was reckoned next * in honour to the emperour , and upon all occasions went equal in dignity to the praetorian prefect , who yet commanded ten times as many provinces : he had the precedence a of all the great officers of rome , and to him belong'd civilium rerum summa , b the management of all civil affairs . hence the title given to sylvester , is that of bishop of the imperial city c and the council of chalcedon tells us , that the fathers therefore gave a prerogative to the see of rome , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , because that was the governing and imperial city ; and constantius the emperour though he had already condemn'd and depos'd athanasius , did yet to put the better colour upon it , desires to have it ratified by the authority enjoy'd by the bishops of the eternal city , as the heathen historian * has remark'd . and thus much may serve for the metropolitical bounds of the roman prelate . chap. iv. an enquiry into the rise and original of patriarchs in the christian church . an enquiry into the rise and original of patriarchs in general . none before the council of nice . what that council contributed to them . civil dioceses when , and by whom introduc'd . these gave start to primary metropolitans . dioceses , when first brought into the church . the title of patriarch borrowed from the jews . who their patriarchs , and whence descended . exarchs what . the word patriarch when first us'd by church-writers in a strict and proper sence . the patriarchs among the montanists , who . a short survey of the four great patriarchates . the extent of the patriarchate of alexandria . the dioecesis aegyptiaca , what . the patriarchal jurisdiction in what sence larger than that of the augustal prefect . little gain'd to this patriarchate more than a title of honour . the patriarchate of antioch commensurate to the eastern diocess . the contest about cyprus how determin'd ? palestine for some time under antioch . the patriarchship of constantinople . by what degrees it rose . what priviledge conferr'd upon it by the second general council . the bishops henceforwards exercising a kind of patriarchal power over the churches of the neighbouring provinces . the power granted to that see by the council of chalcedon . it 's ninth , seventeenth and eight and twentyeth canons considered to that purpose . jurisdiction over the three dioceses of asiana , pontica , and thrace . this settled upon a full debate and discussion of the matter . this power own'd by the synod to have been exercised of a long time before . this grant urg'd against the universal supremacy of the see of rome . the extent of the constantinopolitan patriarchate in after times manifested from several ancient notitiae . the patriarchate of jerusalem . the honour confirm'd to this church by the nicene council . it s subjection to the see of caesarea . when first attempting a metropolitical power . the contest between this bishop , and the bishop of antioch how determin'd in the council of chalcedon . when first styl'd patriarch . the extent of this patriarchate . i. proceed we in the second place to consider him as a patriarch , the highest degree of ecclesiastick government which the church ever owned . and in order to the better clearing the whole matter , it will be of some advantage , and perhaps not unpleasant to the reader , to enquire briefly into the rise and original of patriarchs in general , and then survey each particular patriarchate . the rise of patriarchs is but obscurely delivered in the records of the church , the thing not being particularly and by name taken notice of , 'till like a river that has run a great way , and gathered many tributary rivulets , it had swell'd it self into a considerable stream . that there were none at the time of the nicene council we shew'd before , the chief church-governours then being the metropolitans , some of which soon after set up for more room , and began to enlarge the bounds of their jurisdiction . and two things there were greatly contributed to that attempt . first , the mighty reputation which the synod of nice had given to metropolitans , and especially to the particular sees of rome , alexandria and antioch . this inspir'd them with an ambitious affectation of extending their superiority and jurisdiction , and prepar'd the way among their brethren , for the easier reception of it . socrates observ'd , * that long before his time ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which must reach as far as the council of nice at least ) the bishop of rome ( as he also of alexandria ) had gone beyond the bounds of his place , and had aspir'd 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to a power and dominion over his brethren . a remark so very clear and plain ( especially as to the bishop of rome ) that nothing is more obvious in the whole history of the church . the synod of nice was beholden by all with a just regard and veneration , and its decrees receiv'd as oracles from heaven , and the christian world finding what particular care it had taken of those three great sees , were the more ready to submit and strike sail to their usurpations . hence the following popes , but especially leo the first , do upon all occasions magnifie the nicene canons , and amplify their meaning beyond what was at first intended by them . secondly , the late division of the empire , and the alteration of it from that form , whereinto it had been cast , first by augustus , and afterwards by the emperour hadrian , new modell'd by constantine the great much about the time of the nicene council , gave a singular advantage and opportunity to promote and further this design . ii. for constantine introduc't four praetorian praefectures , each praefecture containing several dioceses ( xiii . in all ) and each diocess comprehending several provinces , the vicar or civil lieutenant residing in the metropolis of every diocess , and presiding over all the provinces within that division . and how easie was it , the world being so prepar'd and dispos'd , and the church so readily embraceing the forms of the civil state , for the chief metropolitan of every diocess to set up for himself . the dignity of the city where he resided , and the resort of people thither for the dispatch of business made him at first be esteem'd and honored as the first bishop of the diocess , and this in a little time brought on the priviledge of ordaining the metropolitans of the several provinces , and to be intrusted with almost the same powers over metropolitans , which they had over provincial bishops . and no doubt it made persons more willing to comply with such a model , that haveing frequent occasion of repairing to the metropolis , ( as is intimated in the ninth canon of antioch ) they might with the greater conveniency dispatch their civil and ecclesiastical affairs both at once . it serv'd not a little to help on this business , that the second general council gave the bishop of constantinople the next place of honour to him of rome upon the account of its being the imperial city ; which gave no small encouragement to the bishops of all diocesan metropoles to attempt the extending their superiority equal to that of the imperial governour that kept his residence in that city . but that which puts the case past dispute is ▪ that that council took in the form of civil dioceses into the church , at least , approv'd what was already taken in : for so they provide * that bishops should not go beyond the diocess to meddle in churches that were without their bounds . socrates * giving an account of this canon , says expresly , that the fathers of the synod having made division of the provinces , constituted patriarchs . and though perhaps by patriarchs socrates means no more than those pro tempore commissioners who were within such and such places appointed to judge who should be received to catholick communion ( as we have elsewhere * observ'd ) yet very plain it is , that the council there intends diocess properly , and in an ecclesiastick sence , and therefore opposes it to province , ordaining that bishops should not ordinarily go out of the diocess to celebrate ordinations , or any other church-offices ; and that the canon concerning dioceses being observ'd , the synod in every province should manage the affairs of it according to the nicene constitution . and in the sixt canon they speak yet more expresly , that if any take upon him to accuse a bishop , he shall first exhibit and prosecute his charge before the provincial synod ; and in case they cannot end it , that then the accusers shall apply themselves 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to the greater synod of the bishops of that diocess , who shall be assembled for that purpose . and if any slighting the bishops of the diocess , shall sue to the emperour , or the secular tribunals , or to a general council , he shall not in any wise be admitted to exhibit an accusation , but be rejected as a violator of the canons , and a disturber of ecclesiastick order . and to name no more in a case so evident , pope innocent * in a letter written about the year ccccviii . says of the church of antioch , that its authority reacht not over a single province , but over a diocess ; though withal he falsly makes it to have been so settled by the synod of nice . nay long before all this we meet with ecclesiastick dioceses in this sence . for by a law * of the emperour gratian bearing date may the xvii . ann. ccclxxvi . it is provided , that the same customs that were in use in civil judicatures , should obtain in church matters , and the final decision and determination of ecclesiastick causes should be made in their proper places , and by the synod of every diocess . and this course the emperour insinuates , as that which was not then first introduc't . iii. from all this it appears that according to the political constitution , diocesan or , as 't was after call'd patriarchal , jurisdiction was brought into the church , and that accordingly the bishops of some of those cities , who had hitherto been but metropolitans , advanc't into the title and dignity of primates ( which was the word that generally obtain'd in the western parts , the word patriarch being late , and little us'd in the western church ) extending their superintendency commensurate to the jurisdiction of the vicar of the diocess . and because some of these metropoles were cities of far greater eminency and account than others , as rome , alexandria , &c therefore the bishops of them were ( in the east especially ) honoured with the title of patriarchs , differing at first from other primates not so much in power , as in dignity and honour , they were diversorum nominum , sed ejusdem officii , as gratian * notes . that this title of patriarch was borrowed from the jews , there can be no doubt . upon the final destruction of their church and state , they were dispers'd into several countries , especially in the eastern parts , where not being capable of continuing their levitical polity , exactly according to the mosaick institution , they constituted some persons to exercise the chief authority among that people , who kept their residence in some of the greater cities , as at babylon , alexandria , tiberias , and afterwards probably at jerusalem . the persons thus made choice of , are thought to have been of the tribe of judah , and more particularly to have descended from the line of david . epiphanius * seems to make them ( at least them of tiberias ) to have been the posterity of gamaliel , the great councellour spoken of in the acts. but theodorit * has a more peculiar fancy , that they were the descendants of herod the great , who was by his fathers side an ascalonite , by his mothers an ●dumaean . but however descended , they were entrusted with the chief power and government over the jews within their particular jurisdictions . these are they who so often calld 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the heads of the exiles , and otherwhiles princes , and frequently patriarchs ( though besides these supream , it seems probable from some of the imperial laws , that they had an inferiour sort of patriarchs , who were but just superiour to their presbyters , or elders ) of these jewish patriarchs there is frequent mention both in jewish a , and christian b writers , and especially in the theodosian c code : whence also 't is evident that this office and title ceas'd , or rather was abolisht by the imperial authority not long before the year d ccccxxix . in the time of the younger theodosius . but though it be plain whence this title was deriv'd , yet when it first sprung up in the christian church , it is hard to say . in the canons * of the chalcedon council he is call'd exarch of the diocess , and any bishop or clergy-man that has a controversie with his own metropolitan , is allow'd to appeal to him ( the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 indifferently notes any chief person in place or power , and the sence or it is to be determin'd according to the circumstances of the case : thus the canons mention both exarch * of the province , and exarch of the diocess , the first denoting a metropolitan , the second a patriarch ) but in the acts * of that council we are told of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the most holy patriarchs of every diocess ; and in the several libels * exhibited against dioscurus , pope leo is intitled patriarch of great rome . and that this title was not then newly taken up we are assured from the letters * of theodosius and his empress placidia , about calling the third general council , holden at ephesus ann. ccccxxxi . in both which leo is styl'd the most reverend patriarch . this is the first time that i remember to have met with a patriarch strictly so call'd , unless we will understand the passage of socrates i mention'd concerning patriarchs in a proper sence . iv. indeed the montanists or cataphrygians , who started up under the reign of the emperour antoninus , had their patriarchs . they had three orders * of church-officers , patriarchs , cenones and bishops . but besides that they were an odd and absurd sect , whom the catholick church alwas disown'd , 't is not easie to guess what they meant by patriarchs , whom they plainly make distinct from bishops . they were it seems their prime ecclesiastick governours , the chief whereof resided probably at pepuza in phrygia , which they fantastically call'd * jerusalem , affirming it to be the new jerusalem , that came down out of heaven , and this 't is like in imitation of the jewish high-priest ; for from the judaical constitution they borrowed many of their devices , and perhaps might borrow the very name as well as thing from them , the prime church-officer among the jews after the destruction of the temple , and the abrogation of that polity , being styl'd patriarch , as we noted before . but it may be doubted , whether the montanists had those three orders from the beginning of their sect , it being taken notice of by none elder than s. jerome , nor that i know of , mention'd by any other ancient writer after him . however 't is certain , that in the common use of the word , it occurrs not till the time of pope leo , and the ephesine and chalcedon councils . after that the title became fixt , and nothing more common than the word patriarch , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 patriarchal sees in the writings of the church . what and how many these particular sees were , we are told by the sixt council in trullo * , where they are particularly enumerated , and their order and precedency adjusted in this manner , rome , constantinople , alexandria , antioch , jerusalem . from hence then we descend to survey these particular patriarchates ; not designing to meddle with secondary and later patriarchates , such as that of aquileia , grado , russia , the patriarchs of the maronites , jacobites , armenians , the catholick or patriarch of bagdad or mauzel and the like . our business now is with the five ancient , and eminent patriarchships , and though first in order , we shall reserve that of rome to be treated of in the last place , intending to discourse more fully concerning it . v. we begin with the patriarch of alexandria ( for i shall take them in order , as i conceive they grew up in time ) who seems to have gain'd little by his new patriarchship besides the honour of the title , whether we consider him in point of precedency , in point of power , or in the extent of his jurisdiction ; nay in some respects he was a loser rather than a gainer by it . in point of precedency , he was before the second metropolitan in the whole christian world , whereas now he was thrust down into the third place . in point of power he was before this change sole metropolitan of those parts , and the ordination of his suffragan bishops intirely belong'd to him , or depended upon his consent and confirmation , which now according to the constitution of church-policy must be devolv'd upon the several metropolitans under him : nor was he much advanc't in the extent of his jurisdiction . 't is true the dioecesis aegyptiaca consisted of six large provinces , all under the government of the augustal praefect , who constantly resided at alexandria ( and consequently in spirituals belong'd to the patriarch of that place : ) these in the notitia imperii * we find thus reckon'd up ; libya superior , libya inferior , thebais , aegyptus , arcadia , augustanica . whereas in the nicene canon the alexandrian metropolitanship is said to extend but over three , egypt , libya and pentapolis . but when it is considered , that thebais , arcadia and augustanica , were of old parts of , and lay hid under the more general name of egypt , and that pentapolis was the same with the upper libya , the account will be much the same . we find in the council of nice * that the bishop of alexandria was appointed to give an account of those synodal transactions to the churches throughout all egypt , libya and pentapolis , and the neighbouring countries as far as the provinces of india . where the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or whole egypt ( in opposition to the other two which were but single provinces ) takes in egypt strictly so call'd , thebais , arcadia and augustanica ; and by the neighboring regions that lay as far as india , are doubtless meant the frontier countries that bordered upon the roman provinces , and were perhaps confederate with the empire , and wherein 't is like the bishops of alexandria had propagated christianity ( as we know athanasius did in india ) whose churches therefore own'd a dependance upon the see of alexandria . and in this respect i grant the bishop had somewhat a larger jurisdiction than the augustal praefect , tho otherwise they were the same . upon the erection of this see into a patriarchate , several metropolitans start up : ten of the metropolitans of his diocess , the emperour theodosius * commanded dioscorus to bring along with him to the council of ephesus . how many more he had is not certain . nilus doxopatrius in his notitia * says there were thirteen ; the old greek notitia we mention'd before a reckons ten provinces , and in them ninety nine bishopricks , which surely argues that a miserable desolation had laid waste those countries , and reduc't the number of episcopal sees . seeing before the time of the nicene council there met in synod near an hundred * bishops out of egypt and libya , whom alexander had summon'd to the condemnation of arius . and that so many there were , athanasius expresly * tells us more than once . and how greatly bishopricks were multiplied afterwards , the reader who is vers'd in these matters needs not be told . vi. the see of antioch always took place next that of alexandria , being ever accounted the prime city of the east . like the rest it arose by degrees into a patriarchate , first getting an honourary , then an authoritative superiority over that diocess . during the session of the second general council , the bishops not only of that province , but of the eastern diocess met together to ordain flavianus bishop of antioch , whose act herein was ratified by the vote of that council , as the remaining part of the synod , meeting again the next year , tell * pope damasus in their letter to him . about this time , or rather sometime before , i guess the bishop of antioch had set up for a patriarchal power , and had begun to enlarge his jurisdiction from a province to a diocess . now the eastern diocess * under the care of the comes orientis contain'd fifteen provinces , the three palestine's , phoenice , syria , cyprus , phoenice libani , euphratensis , syria salutaris , osrhoëna , mesopotamia , cilicia secunda , isauria and arabia ; cyprus indeed stood out , and would not submit to the see of antioch , and though the bishop stickled hard to bring them under , yet the cyprian bishops stoutly maintain'd their ancient rights . the case was canvass'd and debated at large in the council of ephesus * , and upon hearing the whole matter , the council adjudg'd it for the cyprian churches , that they should still enjoy their ancient 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 their liberties independent upon the see of antioch , and pass'd a particular canon in favour of them . and so they continued for many ages : and therefore in the old notitia * cyprus is not plac'd under any of the patriarchates , but is noted to be a province 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 having jurisdiction within it self . but the rest of the provinces for any thing that appears , submitted , and the bishop of jerusalem with his metropolitan of caesarea , were both for some time under the see of antioch . and this renders s. jerom's meaning plain enough in that known passage * , when he tells john bishop of jerusalem , who in the controversie between him and epiphanius had appeal'd to theophilus of alexandria , that if he would have appeal'd , it should have been either to him of caesarea , who was his metropolitan , or to the bishop of antioch as metropolitan of the whole east , that is , of the eastern diocess . but when he says , this course was settled by the synod of nice , 't is plain 't was his mistake . and indeed his own ni fallor shews he was not very confident and peremptory in the case . the account of this patriarchate , as delivered by * nilus doxopatrius ( with whom in the main concurr many other ancient notitiae * ) stands thus . immediately subject to the patriarch were viii . metropolitans , who had no suffragan bishops under them , and viii . or as others reckon , xii . arch-bishopricks : besides which he had xiii . metropolitick sees ; tyre containing under it xiii . bishopricks ; tarsus vi ; edessa xi . or as others x ; apamea vii ; hierapolis xi , the latine notitiae reckon but viii ; bostra xix , or xx ; azarbus ix . seleucia in isauria xxiv ; damascus xi ; amida viii , or as the latins vii ; sergiopolis v , but by some one less ; daras x , the latin notitiae call it theodosiopolis , and allow but vii . episcopal sees ; and lastly emesa containing vi. this was the state of that once venerable patriarchate . vii . the next that succeeds is the patriarchate of constantinople , which though starting later in time , soon got beyond the other two . the bishop of byzantium or constantinople had for several ages been only a private bishop , subject to the metropolitan of heraclea , which anciently had the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( as procopius * tells us ) the primacy of all the cities of that country ; in acknowledgment of which subjection the bishops of heraclea had ever the priviledge to ordain the patriarch of constantinople . but no sooner was that city made the seat of the empire , but great things were spoken of it , 't was styl'd the governing city , the metropolis of the whole world a , a great city ( says nazianzen b in one of his sermons to the people of that place ) and the very next to rome , nay not at all yielding the primacy to it , it being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the first and chiefest city of the empire . and now the bishop of constantinople began to appear considerable in the world , and both church and state conspir'd to render him great and powerful . the fathers of the second general council holden in that city , considering that constantinople was new rome , conferr'd * upon him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the priviledge of honour and respect next to the bishop of rome . this at one lift set him over the heads of the bishops of alexandria and antioch . accordingly in the preceding canon of that council , and in a law * of theodosius conforme thereto concerning the bounds of dioceses , and catholick communion , he is set before both the bishops of those sees ; and if the subscriptions to this synod be of any credit , we find nectarius subscribing first to the decrees of the council . and when the acts of the clancular synod at ephesus were read in the chalcedon council * , and it was found that the bishop of constantinople was therein put in the fifth place , the bishops presently rais'd a clamour , why had he not his proper place , why was he thrust down into the fifth place ; whereupon paschasinus the popes legate declar'd that he held anatolius of constantinople in the first place : which diogenes of cyzicum affirm'd was according to the constitutions of the fathers . but to return to what we were upon . though this canon of constantinople gave the bishop no direct power , yet it gave him so mighty a value and reputation , that he wanted not opportunities enough to carve for himself . he was soon courted on all hands , his mediation requested , and his interposal desired for the ending differences , and where provincial bishops could not agree about the election of their metropolitans , the case was very often referr'd to him , and he perform'd the ordination . this in time begat a right , at least a claim , over the churches in those countries that lay next him , especially the dioceses of asiana , pontica and thrace , in which 't is plain he exercised a patriarchal power . thus to omit other instances , s. chrysostom synodically heard the cause of antoninus bishop of ephesus ( the metropolis of the asian diocess ) and afterwards went himself in person thither , where he conven'd a synod of lxx . bishops of those parts , heard the cause over again , gave judgment upon it , and ordain'd a metropolitan in that city . he likewise depos'd gerontius bishop of nicomedia , which lay in the diocess of pontica , and some others , and fill'd up their sees ; whereof we have elsewhere given an account at large . and this very instance we find produc'd and pleaded in the chalcedon synod * to prove the rights of the constantinopolitan see over those churches . i know the validity of these good mans proceedings in this matter is disputed by some , and was of old put among the articles exhibited against him to the synod at the oke . but no doubt can be made , but chrysostom thought he had sufficient authority and right to do it , and would not have attempted it , had it not been warranted by the practise of his predecessors . in the mean time i cannot but smile at the grave fancy of a learned man * , who without the least shadow of any other warrant than his own conjecture , will have chrysostom to have acted herein as the popes legate , and to have done all this by vertue of his absolute and supreme authority . so quick-sighted and acute are men to discern what never was , and so willing to believe , what 't is their interest should be true . viii . but to proceed with our patriarch of constantinople , he held on much at this rate till the general council at chalcedon holden there ann. ccccli . when what he had hitherto holden by custome , canonical authority made his right . by their ninth canon they provide , that if any bishop or clergy-man have a controversie with his own metropolitan , it shall be at his liberty to appeal either to the exarch , that is , primate of the diocess , or to the see of constantinople , where his cause shall be heard . a canon that invested him with a vast power , putting him into a capacity of receiving and determing final appeals from all those parts . the same they again ratify by their seventeenth canon , and by their twenty-eight make a more particular provision for him . first , they profess in general altogether to follow the decrees of the holy fathers , then they recognize the third canon of the second general council ( which was then read before them ) and decree the same priviledges , and upon the same account , as that had done to the church of constantinople . forasmuch ( say they ) as the reason why the fathers conferr'd such priviledges upon the see of old rome , was , that it was the imperial city . and upon the same consideration the bishops of that second general council gave equal priviledges to the see of new rome ; rightly judging ( as the canon goes on ) that the city which was honoured with the empire , and the senate , and enjoy'd equal priviledges with old imperial rome , should also in ecclesiastical matters have the same honour with it , only coming after it in the second place . and because the bishop of constantinople had hitherto had no certain diocess , nor any place wherein to exercise jurisdiction , but what he held precariously , and as it were by courtesie , in the latter part of the canon they fix his bounds , giving him power over the three dioceses of pontica , asiana and thrace , that the metropolitans of all those places , and all the bishops of the barbarous countries belonging to those dioceses , should be bound to come , and receive their ordination from the bishop of constantinople . and now he lookt like bishop of the imperial city , being invested with so ample and extensive a jurisdiction . for the three dioceses of asiana , pontica and thrace were great and large . the first * containing eight provinces ( viz. pamphylia , lydia , caria , lycia , lycaonia , pisidia , phrygia pacatiand , and phrygia salutaris , both which were anciently comprehended under the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or greater phrygia , as it stood oppos'd to the lesser , that lay upon the hellespont : ) the second * eleven ( bithynia , galalatia , paphlagonia , honorias , galatia salutaris , cappadocia prima , cappadocia secunda , hellenopontus , pontus polemoniacus , armenia prima , armenia secunda : ) the third * six ( europa , thracia , haemimontus , rhodopa , maesia secunda , scythia . ) the popes legates were infinitely enrag'd at this canon , and the powers and priviledges hereby given to the see of constantinople , and us'd all possible arts to overthrow it , but all in vain , it pass'd clearly , and was subscrib'd by all the bishops then present in the synod , amounting to a very great number , whose subscriptions are still extant * in the acts of the council . after a full discussion of the whole matter , that no pretence of force or fraud might be objected , as many of the bishops of asiana and pontica as were then in the synod were desir'd to declare whether they had freely submitted to this constitution . who accordingly stood up , and one after another did most solemnly protest that they had voluntarily and unconstrainedly assented to , and subscrib'd the canon , and that nothing was more acceptable to them . and many of them expresly declar'd they did it for this reason , because not only themselves , but their predecessors had been ordain'd by the bishops of constantinople , and that the see of constantinople had these rights 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , from canons and precedent customs . so that it 's more than probable that the bishop of constantinople had exercised this power within those dioceses almost ever since the time of , and by virtue of the third canon of the second general council . and 't is observable what eusebius bishop of dorylaeum , a city of the greater phrygia , tells the synod upon this occasion , that he had been at rome , and there in the presence of the clergy of constantinople that were with him had read the canon ( i suppose he means that of the second general council ) to the pope , who approv'd and received it , ( which i the rather take notice of because not only modern writers , but gregory the great * so confidently affirms , that the church of rome neither had copies , nor did admit the acts and canons of that council . ) and whereas eusebius of ancyra scrupled to subscribe , yet he confest , that he himself had been ordain'd by the bishop of constantinople , that he had ever declin'd ordaining provincial bishops , and had done it only by direction of the bishop of constantinople . and after thalassius of caesarea in cappadocia told the synod , that they were of arch-bishop anatolius his side , and did decree the same thing . the judges hereupon having weighed all that had past , declar'd , that in the first place 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that precedency and singular honour should according to the canons be paid to the arch-bishop of old rome ; and that withal the arch-bishop of the imperial city of constantinople , being new rome , ought to enjoy the same priviledges of honour , and to have besides 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , power of himself , and by his own authority to ordain the metropolitans within the dioceses of asiana , pontica and thrace ; the election being first duly made within every province , and that then it shall be at the choice of the arch-bishop of constantinople , whether the metropolitan elect shall come to him for his consecration , or whether by his permission it shall be done at home by the provincial bishops ; and that this shall no ways prejudice the rights of metropolitans and provincial bishops in ordaining private and particular bishops , wherein the arch-bishop of constantinople shall not interpose . whereupon all with one voice cried out , 't was a righteous sentence , that they were all of that mind , that this just judgment pleas'd them all , that the things that had been establisht should take place , and that every thing had been done decently and in order . in conclusion , they wrote a synodical letter * to pope leo , acquainting him with what had past , and upon what grounds they had done it , and desiring his concurrence in it . and we may observe they tell him , that in settling this power upon the see of constantinople , they did but confirm 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the custome which that church had of a long time obtained over those three dioceses . which puts it past all peradventure what we noted before , that from the very time of the second general council , the constantinopolitan bishops had exercised a kind of patriarchal jurisdiction over those churches , though never till now settled by canon . ix . and now let the reader impartially reflect upon the whole affair , and when he has considered what this wise and great council expresly affirm , that the priviledges which the fathers gave to the see of rome were meerly upon the account of its being the imperial city , and that for the very same reason they gave equal priviledges to the see of constantinople , only reserving a honourary precedence to him of rome ; let him tell me , whether it can be suppos'd , they could or would have said and done this , had they known , or but so much as dream't of any supream authority , which christ had immediately given the bishops of rome over the whole church of god. nor was this the only council that thus honoured the constantinopolitan see ; somewhat more than two ages after met the sixt general council in the trullus , or great arch'd-hall or secretarium of the pallace , who confirm'd * what both the former councils , that of constantinople , and the other of chalcedon , had done in this matter , and assigned each patriarch his proper place . x. what additions , or alterations after ages made in the see of constantinople , the reader may perceive somewhat by perusing the following accounts . in the greek notitia publisht * not long since out of the bodleian library , compos'd in the reign of the emperour leo the wise , about the year dcccxci . this patriarchate had under it xxxiii . metropolitans , who had under them ccclxxv . episcopal sees , besides xli . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or independent arch-bishopricks , subject to no metropolitan . leunclavius * presents us with another 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or disposition of the churches of this patriarchate made by this same emperour , wherein are set down lxxxi . metropolitans , containing under them dlxxiv . suffragan sees , and xxxix . arch-bishopricks . but surely this list is either greatly interpolated , or must be of a later date than it pretends to , being so different from the other both in the number , and the names of places , and not very consistent with it self . for whereas it reckons up lxxxi . yet when it comes to set down each metropolitan with his particular suffragans , it gives but an account of lvii . of the number . but however this be , within an age or two after , partly by the addition of new provinces , partly by erecting new metropoles , it was enlarg'd for in the notitia , or discourse concerning the five patriarchal sees written by nilus doxopatrius the archimandrite , ann. mxliii . the account stands thus . * metropolitans lxv . under the bishopricks dcxl. arch-bishopricks without suffragans , and immediately subject to the patriarch xxxiv . ann. mcclxxxiii . andronicus palaeologus entred upon the empire : he publisht an order * according to which the metropolitans were to take place , wherein they are reckon'd up to the number of an hundred and nine . and in another , agreed upon by the emperour and the patriarch , put out by leunclavius * , but without any date either of time or persons , are mention'd lxxx . metropolitical sees , archiepiscopal xxxix . and thus much for the patriarchship of constantinople . xi . the fourth that remains is the patriarchate of jerusalem , the last in time , and least in circuit . for several ages the bishop of jerusalem was no more than a private prelate , subject to the metropolitan of caesarea . for so the notitia publisht by william archbishop of tyre informs * us , that according to ancient tradition , and records of good authority in those parts , the church of jerusalem had no bishop under it , nor enjoy'd any , or very little prerogative till the reign of justinian , and the times of the fifth general council ; though always out of reverence to the place , custom and ancient tradition ( as the fathers of nice inform * us ) had allow'd him a peculiar honour , and therefore those fathers decree him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the consequence of honour , that is , that he should have respect and precedence before all the bishops of that province next to his own metropolitan . and indeed whatever they of the church of rome may talk of the merit of s. peter , as the foundation of the supereminent authority of that church , surely if any church might have pleaded merit , one might have thought it should have been that of jerusalem , which for so many ages had been the metropolis of the jewish nation , the seat of their kings , adorn'd with a most magnificent temple , and all the solemnities of divine worship ; the place where our blessed saviour spent the greatest part of his publick ministry , where he preacht so many sermons , wrought so many miracles , where he suffered , died , and rose again , and whence he ascended into heaven , where the apostolical colledge was kept for some years , and all affairs of the church transacted there ; where s. james the brother of our lord was made ( and that say some of the ancients by our lords own hands ) the first christian bishop of that see ; the place where the first church was planted , and from whence christianity was propagated into all other parts of the world. this was the true mother church , and if merit might have challeng'd primacy and power , it had more to say for it self , than all other churches in the world besides . but caesarea happening to be the metropolis of that province , and the seat of the roman governour , carried away the superiority , and so jerusalem though it had an honourary respect , continued a private see , subject to the metropolitan of caesarea , as he for some time was to the patriarch of antioch . but after that the empire was become christian , and that constantine the great , and his mother helena , and some following emperours began to reflect some peculiar favours upon that place , and had grac'd it with stately and magnificent buildings , and other marks of honour ; and after that the devotion of christians began to pay an extraordinary respect to the places of our lords crucifixion , sepulchre , and resurrection , the bishops of that church lookt upon themselves as hardly dealt with to be coop'd up within so narrow a compass , and to be subjected to another jurisdiction , and therefore resolv'd to throw off the yoke , and to get what power they could into their own hands . the first that graspt at the metrpolitick rights was s. cyrill , who disputed the case with acacius bishop of caesarea , for which acacius depos'd him , and persecuted him both in the synod at seleucia , and in that which followed at constantinople about the latter end of constantius his reign . what immediately followed in this controversie , is uncertain , the history of the church being silent in that matter . in the council of ephesus , juvenal bishop of jerusalem laid claim to the metropolitical jurisdiction of that province , and sought to have it confirm'd by a decree of that synod . but cyrill of alexandria president of the council , oppos'd and hindred it . after this a high contest arose between him and maximus bishop of antioch , who challeng'd jerusalem and palestine as within his diocess . the case was brought before the chalcedon council * , where it was debated , and at last by compromise between the two contending parties brought to this issue , that the bishop of antioch should retain the two phoenicia's and arabia ( which it seems were also in dispute ) and the see of jerusalem should have the three palaestine provinces for the bounds of his ecclesiastick jurisdiction . this was assented to , and ratified by the decree of the council . and now the bishop of jerusalem had his peculiar diocess , though of no very great extent , allotted him , and the tables were turn'd , and caesarea it self subjected to him , and the fifth and last place among the patriarchs assign'd to him ; as appears from the constitution of the sixth general council . and because jerusalem lay in the borders both of the antiochain , and alexandrian patriarchates , therefore to make up its jurisdiction , we are told * that something was taken out of each , the metropolitick sees of rabba and berytus , from him of alexandria , as caesarea and scythopolis from him of antioch . and that as a badge of his ancient subjection , the metropolitan of caesarea still had the honour * to ordain the patriarch of jerusalem , as upon the fame account he of heraclea had to consecrate the patriarch of constantinople . and in this patriarchal capacity we find the bishop of jerusalem subscribing in all councils , and upon occasions summoning the bishops of his patriarchate . thus ann. dxviii . we find john bishop of jerusalem with his synod of the bishops of the three palaestines sending a letter * to john patriarch of constantinople . and when the council at constantinople under mennas had condemn'd anthimus , severus , and the rest of the acephali ann. dxxxvi . peter patriarch of jerusalem ( as he is all along call'd in the acts * of his council ) summon'd a patriarchal synod of all the bishops of the three palaestine provinces , who confirm'd what had been done in the council at constantinople . and thenceforwards the patriarchate of jerusalem runs smooth and currant through the history of the church . as to what bishops and metropolitans he had under him , the old notitiae * give us this account . the patriarch himself had immediately under him xxv . bishops , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , nilus doxopatrius * calls them , independent bishopricks , because subject to no other metropolitan ; besides which he had four metropolitans : the metropolitan of caesarea , who had twenty bishops under him ; he of scythopolis or basan , who had nine ; rabba moabitis , or as doxopatrius has it , petra , who had twelve , and berytus , who had xxxv . which by the authors we have cited are particularly reckon'd up . chap. v. the bounds of the roman patriarchate . a return to the roman patriarchate . the limits hereof not expresly set down by the ancients . unjustly pretended to reach over the whole west . this granted by them of the greek church , and why . the popes patriarchal power disown'd by the churches of milan , aquileia and ravenna . the independency and opposition of those churches to the roman see , severally evinc't by particular cases and instances . the power of metropolitans in france kept up independant from rome . the truth of this consess'd and clear'd by de marca . other instances of preserving their rights against the pretensions of rome ; hincmar of rhemes , and the synod of metz. two other national churches instanc't in : the african , and the britannick churches . the famous case of appeals in the church of africk . a clear account of that matter . their publick rejecting the power which the pope challeng'd over those churches . the letters of the council of carthage to pope boniface , and caelestine to that purpose . several useful and proper corollaries deduc't from this story for the evincing the vain pretensions of the papal power over those churches . the boldness of some in denying the truth of this whole story . the state of the britannick church . the progress of religion and church-government here 'till the times of pope gregory . the church govern'd by an arch-bishop and bishop at austin's arrival . their customs wholly different from , and independant upon rome . their absolute refusal to own the authority of austin or the pope . the slaughter of the bangor-monks suspiciously charg'd upon austin . the popes proper patriarchate most probably shew'd to be of equal extent with the jurisdiction of the vicarius urbicus . what provinces under his government . the roman synod consisting of the bishops of those provinces . a two-fold patriarchate of the pope trifling and precarious . the bishops of rome daily amplyfying their jurisdiction . the means whereby they did this briefly intimated . i. having thus dispatcht the other patriarchs , we return to him of rome , ever allow'd to be the first , and most honourable of the number . what his patriarchal bounds were , the records of the church have not so particularly set out , as they have done the rest . and here the champions of that church when they find themselves prest upon , and that rhe popes universal and apostolical power is a post not to be defended , presently retreat to his patriarchate , which with great confidence they extend over the whole western world , being content with half , when they cannot have all . and to this prodigious latitude some * of them stretch the suburbicary churches , ( as if the whole western empire had been nothing but the suburbs of rome ) and in this sence they tell us rufinus meant the canon of nice , and this upon no wiser reason than ( what is as trifling and precarious as the other ) that the whole west was the special diocess of the bishop of rome . but this looks rather like fancy and romance , than that grave and sober arguing that becomes those great names that use it . omitting therefore this extravagant notion of suburbicary churches , come we to the thing it self . and herein it must be granted , they have the later greeks , zonaras , balsamon , barlaam , nilus , &c. on their side , who very liberally give him all the western provinces , and that too by vertue of the sixth canon of nice . a concession which they make not so much out of any kindness to the church of rome , as partly out of a design to magnifie the power and greatness of their own patriarch of constantinople , who was to share equal priviledges with him of rome ; partly because they were willing to keep the pope within any bounds , whose restless ambition they saw carrying all before it , and therefore car'd not to throw him the west for his portion , for which they had no care or concernment what became of it , being mainly intent upon preserving their jurisdiction at home . and here i cannot but by the way remark the indiscreet and injudicious zeal of a very learned man * , who confidently asserts , that in the expedition of the franks for the recovery of the holy land , god by a peculiar providence let the eastern parts be subdued by the western armies ; that so those famous patriarchal sees might learn to strike sail to the see of rome , and own the greatness and dignity of that church . besides , 't is to be considered , that in this concession the greeks took their measures of things from the state of the church as it was in their time , when the pope had in a manner intirely subdued the western provinces to the see of rome . but in the better and more early ages the case was otherwise . and indeed that the popes patriarchal jurisdiction was far enough from extending over the whole west , there can be no better evidence , than that there was scarce any western church in those days , that did not upon occasion oppose the power , and remonstrate against the usurpations of the see of rome . in italy we need go no further than to those churches that lay next it , i mean the great churches of milan , aquileia , and ravenna . ii. how great milan was , and of how great reputation the bishop of it , so that he stood upon a level with him of rome , we briefly noted before ; it being next rome , the largest , richest , most plentiful , and populous city of the west , as procopius * tells us . s. ambrose his election and ordination to that see was made purely by the provincial bishops , and at the command of the emperour , without the least notice taken of the roman bishop . a case so clear , that de marca * fairly gives up the cause , and confesses that in those times and for some ages after , the pope had nothing to do in the ordination of the metropolitan of milan : nay , that this was the case of all metropolitans out of the popes jurisdiction in italy , where the bishops of every province constantly ordain'd their own metropolitans without any authority ; or so much as consent had from the bishop of rome . but then not being able to shift off the evidence of truth , and yet willing withall to serve his cause , he does in order to that design , distinguish the roman patriarchate into ordinary , over a great part of italy , and extraordinary , over the whole west . a distinction wholly precarious , and which is worse , false . and indeed what kind of patriarchate that must be , that could consist without right of ordaining metropolitans , the first and most inseparable branch of patriarchal power , would have become a person of his , i say not ingenuity , but wisdom and learning to have considered . as for milan , the metropolitick rights of that church , he confesses , continued independant at least till the year dlv. and indeed 't is plain from the epistle * of pope pelagius ; who confesses that the bishops of milan did not use to come to rome , but they and the bishops of aquileia ordain'd each other : and when he was not able to reduce them by other means , he endeavour'd to bring them in by the help of the secular arm , as appears from his letter * to narses the emperours lieutenant to that purpose . and afterwards upon a difference that hapened , milan withdrew it self from the communion of the church of rome for two hundred years * together . and though with others it was brought at last under the common yoke , yet upon every little occasion it reasserted its original liberty . thus when ann. mlix . great disturbances arose in that church * , pope nicolaus the second sent peter damian as his legate to interpose . this made it worse , the common out-cry presently was , that the ambrosian church ought not be subject to the laws of rome , and that the pope had no power of judging , or ordering matters in that see ; that it would be a great indignity , if that church which under their ancestors had been always free , should now to their extream reproach ( which god forbid ) become subject to another church . the clamour increas'd , and the people grew into an higher ferment , the bells are rung , the episcopal pallace beset , the legate threatned with death , who getting into the pulpit , and having in a short speech set forth the pope's and s. peter's power , and wheedled the people with some popular insinuations , reduc'd things to a better order . iii. the church of aquileia was much at the same pass with that of milan , the bishops whereof mutually ordain'd one another , without so much as asking the pope leave . and though pelagius * would insinuate , that this was done only to save the trouble and charge of a journy to rome , yet de marca * honestly confesses the true reason was , that milan being the head of the italick diocess , the ordaining the metropolitan of aquileia belong'd to him as primate ; and the ordaining the primate of milan belong'd to him of aquileia , as being the first metropolitan of the diocess of italy . upon this account , and that of the tria capitula , this church held no correspondence with that of rome for above an hundred years , and when gregory the great having got the emperour on his side , attempted by force and armed violence to bring them to answer their stubbornness at rome , the bishop of aquileia with his provincial synod met , and wrote an humble remonstrance * to the emperour mauricius , wherein they set forth the true state of their case , and the unjust and violent proceedings of the pope , and plainly tell him that they had at the time of their ordination given caution in writing to their metropolitan , which they never had , nor would violate , and that unless his majesty was pleas'd to remove this compulsion , their successours would not be suffered to come to aquileia for ordination , but would be forc't to fly to the arch-bishops of france , as being next at hand , and receive it there . the emperour was satisfied with their addresses , and wrote * to the pope ( baronius calls them imperious letters , written more tyrannico , like a tyrant ) commanding him to surcease the prosecution , and to create those bishops no farther trouble , 'till the affairs of italy were quieted , and things might more calmly be enquired into . baronius is strangely angry at this letter , even to the heighth of rudeness and passion , especially towards so good an emperour , that he should take upon him arroganti fastu , with so much pride and arrogancy not to beseech , but to command the pope , which he again says was done not like an emperour , but a tyrant . but the istrian and ligurian bishops , little regarded how it thundred at rome . nay , to make the ballance hang more even , they had some time since advanc't their metropolitan to the title and honour of a patriarch , which baronius * himself grants was done while paulinus was metropolitan of aquileia about the year dlxx. an honour a long time resident at aquileia , then translated to grado , and at last fixt at venice . though withal aquileia having recovered its broken fortunes , resum'd the style and dignity of a patriarch , an honour which it retains to this day . iv. let us next view the church of ravenna , and see whether that was any more conformable to rome than the rest . ravenna had for some time , especially from the days of honorius , been the seat of the roman emperours ; and in the declining times of the empire , the exarchs of italy , who govern'd in chief under the emperour , constantly resided there , while rome was under the command of a petty duke : swell'd with so much honour and advantage , the bishops of ravenna for some ages disputed place with them of rome , the exarchs taking all occasions to curb and repress the pope . ann. dcxlix . maurus , sometimes steward of that church * , entred upon the archiepiscopal see of ravenna . a man as my author grants , wise , and of a shrew'd sharp wit. he without taking any notice of rome , was consecrated by three bishops of his own province , ordain'd his own provincial bishops , and was so far from seeking any confirmation from the pope , that he received his pall from the emperour . this gave infinite distaste to pope martin , and 't is like to his successour eugenius , who sat but one year . but pope vitalian who succeeded , would not so put it up , but summons maurus to appear , and answer his contempt at rome , but he slighted the summons , for which the pope excommunicated him , and he in requital did the like to the pope , nay upon his death-bed oblig'd his clergy never to submit themselves to the bishop of rome . reparatus his successour trod in the same steps , and procur'd the emperours rescript to free that church from any subjection to the roman see. ann. dccviii . * felix of ravenna was content to receive his ordination at the hands of the pope , but when he came thither , an oath of allegiance and fidelity was required of him to the see of rome . this he utterly denied , a confession of his faith he offered , but homage he would not pay , nor engage to send money to rome . nor more he did , but home he goes , where his people gave him little thanks for what he had done , and both agreed to defend their liberty ; but it cost the old man dear , and them too for that attempt . for justinian rhinotmetes the emperour ( who favoured the pope ) being made acquainted with what was done at ravenna ; a fleet is sent under the command of theodorus patricius , the city besieg'd , and taken , several of prime quality lost their lives and fortunes , and the poor arch-bishop had his eyes put out , and was banisht into pontus , where he remain'd , 'till the severity of discipline had taught him better manners . the same courage in asserting the priviledges of their church against the papal encroachments was afterwards shewn by john , and guibert successors in that see , as were it necessary , might be particularly related . but the case is too evident to be denied , and the argument thence too strong to be evaded , how little those times understood of any patriarchal jurisdiction which the pope had over all italy , much less over the whole west . v. if we look into france , we shall find them careful to secure the rights of metropolitans , and the priviledges of provincial bishops , without being oblig'd to fetch them from rome . the second council of arles ann. cccclii . decree * , that no bishop shall be ordain'd without his own metropolitan , and three of the provincial bishops , the rest testifying their consent by letter . the second of orleans holden ann. dxxxiii . renew * the ancient form and manner of ordaining metropolitans , that it shall be done by the bishops of the province , which shews how little they depended upon any foreign power in this matter . but it 's needless to insist upon this point , which the learned de marca * has so fully cleared and vindicated , as a fundamental part of the liberties of the gallican church , and has deduc't it through the several ages and dynasties of their kings . i shall only remark , that when hincmar arch-bishop of remes had depos'd rothald bishop of suessons for great misdemeanours , rothald appeal'd to rome , and pope nicolaus espous'd his cause , wrote sharply to hincmar , and cited him to appear , and answer what he had done at rome . but hincmar would not stir , but publisht a large apologetick * to the pope , wherein he justifies his act , and though he gives good words , and great deference to the see apostolick , yet stoutly contends , that he ought to be content with a general care and inspection , and not interrupt the ordinary rights of metropolitans , and that 't was infinitely reasonable , that the criminal should be referr'd to the judgment of his own province . two years before this , viz. ann. dccclxiii . a french synod met at metz * about the marriage of king lotharius , wherein they determin'd contrary to the liking of the papal legates . however they sent letters with the reasons of their proceedings by guntharius arch-bishop of colen , and theatgaud of triers to pope nicolaus . the pope upon their arrival call'd a synod , wherein he excommunicated the synod of metz , and depos'd the two arch-bishops that were sent with the letters , and publisht * a manifesto of what he had done . to this the bishops return'd an answer , wherein having represented the personal affronts , and ill usage they had met with from him , they tell him chap. iv. that as for his froward , unjust , and unreasonable sentence , contrary to all canons , they did not own it , yea as being illegal and unwarrantable , they together with the rest of their brethren slighted and despised it , and utterly renounc'd communion with him , contenting themselves with the communion and fellowship of the whole church , over which he had so proudly exalted himself , and from which through his pride and contempt he had separated himself . and whereas he had styl'd them his clerks , they bid him take notice they were none of his clerks , but persons , whom , if his pride would have suffer'd him , he ought to have own'd and treated as his brethren and fellow bishops , with much more there spoken with a just , but smart resentment . and now can any man believe , the pope should have met with such treatment upon all occasions , and that from the wisest , gravest , most learned , and eminent persons in their several ages , had his title to the jurisdiction of the west been so clear and unquestionable , as some men seem to represent it . the same might be shew'd in other countries , and he must be a great stranger to church-history , that can be at a loss for instances of this nature . i shall therefore instance only in two more ( and with them dispatch this argument ) the african and the britanick churches . vi. i chuse to instance in the churches of africk , because so confidently challeng'd by them of rome at every turn , and because they were under the civil jurisdiction of the praetorian praefect of italy . and here omitting infinite arguments that offer themselves , i shall insist only upon the famous case of appeals , commenc'd under pope zosimus , ann. ccccxviii . and not ended 'till some years after , which will furnish us with a plain and uncontroulable evidence , how little authority more than what was honourary , the see of rome in those days had over those churches . the case , as briefly as it can well be summ'd up , stands thus , * apiarius a presbyter of sicca in africk had been depos'd by his diocesan urbanus for very notorious and scandalous offences , and the sentence ratified by a provincial council . hopeless of any relief at home , over he flies to rome , tells his tale to pope zosimus , who restores him to communion , espouses his cause , and sends him back with faustinus an italian bishop , and two roman presbyters into africk , to see him resettled in his former place . when they arriv'd in africk , they found a council of african bishops to the number of ccxvii . sitting at carthage , to whom they delivered their message partly by word of mouth , partly by writing . but the writing being demanded , a memorial was produc't containing instructions from pope zosimus what they should insist upon ; it consisted of four heads . first , concerning the appeals of bishops to the see of rome . secondly , against the busie resorting of bishops to court. thirdly , concerning the handling the causes of presbyters and deacons by the neighbouring bishops , where they were unjustly excommunicated by their own . fourthly , concerning the excommunicating bishop urban ( who had depos'd apiarius ) or at least his appearing at rome , unless he corrected what he had done amiss . but the main thing insisted on was that of appeals , and the popes sending legates thither to hear causes , and this too challeng'd by zosimus in his memorial by vertue of a canon of the council of nice , giving leave to bishops accus'd or condemn'd to appeal to rome , and power to the pope to hear and determine those appeals , either immediately by himself , or by commishoners which he should send to that purpose . the african fathers were infinitely surpriz'd to hear such a power claim'd , and more to hear it claim'd as due by a canon of nice . they had search'd into the canons of that council , which they found to be but twenty , and not one of that number to this purpose . while these things were debating , zosimus dies , and boniface succeeds , and the case is again canvast , and the result of the consultation was , that for the present things should rest upon that bottom , whereon the popes memorial had plac't them , 'till they could send to the three great churches of constantinople , antioch and alexandria for authentick copies of the nicene canons , to adjust and decide this matter . they wrote likewise to pope boniface by his legates ( who then return'd ) acquainting him with the state of the case , and what was done in it , and withal tell him , that if it were as those pretended canons claim'd , the issue would be intolerable to them : but they hop'd it would be found otherwise , no such thing appearing in their copies of that council . however they had sent to the eastern churches for such as were most authentick , and intreated him also to do the like . vii . some years pass'd in this matter , at length the messengers that had been sent into the east return'd , and brought letters * from cyril of alexandria , and atticus of constantinople , importing that they had sent 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 most true and exact copies of the authentick synod of nice , preserv'd in the archives of their churches , copies of which they had also sent to pope boniface . hereupon a full council of african bishops is conven'd , to which pope caelestine ( for boniface was lately dead ) dispatcht faustinus as his legate . and now the case of apiarius is again brought under examination , and found worse than it was before , the farther they rak'd into it , the more foul and offensive did it appear to them , 'till the conviction of his conscience , though sore against his will , forc'd him to confess all , and save them the trouble of any farther scrutiny . and now this cause being over , and the pretence of appeals overthrown by the authentick copies of the canons of nice , nothing remain'd but to write to caelestine , which they did in a quick and smart strain , wherein they first give him an account of the case of apiarius , and how troublesome and injurious his legate faustinus had been to the whole synod , in asserting the priviledges of the church of rome , and by vertue thereof challenging that apiarius should be readmitted to communion , because his holiness ( believing his appeal , which yet could not be made good ) had restor'd him to communion , a thing which he ought in no wise to have done . next they proceed earnestly to beseech him , that henceforth he would not so easily give ear to those that came from hence , nor admit any to communion , whom they had excommunicated , which he might easily perceive was prohibited by the council of nice , which if it has taken so much care about the inferiour clergy , how much more did it intend it in the case of bishops , that where any are suspended from communion within their own province , his holiness should not rashly and unduly readmit them , that he should , as became him , reject the unwarrantable repairing of presbyters and others of the inferiour clergy , there being no canon of any council that has depriv'd the african church of this right , and that the decrees of nice have most plainly committed both the inferiour clergy , and the bishops themselves to their own metropolitans ; having most wisely and justly provided , that all affairs shall be determin'd in the very places where they arise , and that the grace of the holy spirit will not be wanting to every province , whereby equity may be prudently discern'd , and constantly maintain'd by the ministers of christ , especially since every man has liberty , if he be offended with the determination of his judges , to appeal to a provincial , or if need be , to a general council : unless perhaps any one can think , that god should enable single persons to examin the justice of a cause , and deny it to a vast number of bishops assembled in council . or , how shall a judgment then made beyond sea be valid , whereto the persons that are necessary to give in evidence , either through the infirmity of their sex , or age , and many other impediments that will intervene , cannot be brought ? for that any commissioners should be sent hither by your holiness , we do not find ordain'd by the fathers in any synod . for as to what you long since sent us by faustinus as part of the nicene council , in the true and authentick copies of that council ( which we received from cyril of alexandria , and atticus of constantinople , and which we sent to your predecessour boniface ) we could find no such matter . in conclusion , they advise him , that he should not upon the request of any man , send any of his clerks thither to execute his sentence , nor grant such leave to any , lest they should seem to introduce the smoaky pride of the world into the church of christ , which holds forth the light of simplicity , and the brightness of humility to all them that are desirous to see god : that as to faustinus , they are confident , that brotherly love continuing through the goodness and moderation of his holiness , africa shall no longer be troubled with him . such was their letter to the pope , a letter not fuller fraught with true matters of fact , than fortified with clearness and strength of reason . viii . from this naked and unartificial representation of the case , its plain ; first , that whatever power the ●●shop of rome claim'd in africk , was even by his own tacit confession , founded upon the canons of the church . zosimus did not pretend a commission from christ , or a delegation from s. peter , but only a canon of nice to justify his proceedings . secondly , that the canons of the church give the bishop of rome no power over foreign churches , either to receive their excommunicated members , to hear and decide their causes , or to restore them to communion , or to send legates and commissioners with authority to determine the cause at home ; for this , say the african fathers , nullâ invenimus patrum synodo constitutum . thirdly , that zosimus was guilty of a notorious forgery and imposture in falsifying the nicene canons , pretending a canon of sardica to be a canon of nice , and as such endeavouring to impose it , and his own power by it upon the african churches . can it be suppos'd , that zosimus should be ignorant what and how many the nicene canons were ? the popes legates were present , and as we are often told , presided in that synod , brought the decrees home with them ( as all other great churches did ) where they were no doubt carefully preserv'd among the records of that church , and the frequent occasions of those times , made them be daily lookt into . was not the pope , think we , able to distinguish between nice and sardica , between an oecumenical council , and a synod only of western bishops , call'd in another emperours reign above twenty years after . no , no , it was not a sin of ignorance , but the pope knew well enough which council would best serve his turn , that the world had a just and a mighty veneration for that of nice , and that his design would be easily swallowed , if he could gild it over with the reputation and authority of that synod . it was obvious to except against sardica , that it was but a particular council , and that the canon it made for appeals to rome was only a provisionary decree , when the injur'd person was not like to meet with justice at home , but the whole mass of bishops was corrupted , and set against him , as was the case of athanasius and two or three more in respect of the arians , who were the occasion , and for whose sakes that canon was made . but that of nice was universal , and unexceptionable , and which he hoped would pass without controul . but the african bishops according to the humour of that nation were of too honest and blunt a temper to be cajol'd by the arts of rome . they requir'd to have the matter brought to the test , and to be judg'd by the original canons , and so the fraud was discovered , and brought to light in the eye of the world. fourthly , that the church of africk , and accordingly every national church , has an inhaerent power of determining all causes that arise within it self : that this right is founded both upon most evident reason , ( nothing being fitter than that controversies should be ended in the places where they began , where there are all advantages of bringing matters to a more speedy and equal trial ) and upon the wisdom and justice of the divine providence , which would not let his assistance be wanting in one place more than another , and especially there where doing right to truth did more immediately make it necessary ; and that 't was as probable two or three hundred should sift out truth as a single person . that the nicene synod had made this the right of the african no less than other churches , and they did not understand how they had forfeited it , or that any council had taken it from them . fifthly , that it was not lawful for any person , accused or proceeded against in africk , to appeal to transmarine churches , no not to the see of rome . this they tell coelestine most expresly , and call them improba refugia , wicked and unwarrantable refuges . against this they had particularly provided in the council at milevis * not long before this contest arose , that if any clergyman had a controversie with his bishop , the neighbouring bishops should hear and determine it . but if there were any occasion of appealing , they should appeal no further than to an african council , or to the primates of those provinces . and that if any should resolve to appeal to any transmarine judgment , no man in africk should admit them to communion . the canon 't is true expresses only the appeals of presbyters , deacons , and the inferiour clergy ; but as the fathers in their letters to caelestine argue strongly , if this care be taken about the inferiour clergy , how much more ought it to be observ'd by bishops . sixthly , that the power which the bishop of rome sought to establish over other churches , evidently made way to bring pride , and tyranny , and a secular ambition into the church of god , and that if this course were follow'd , it would let in force , and domination , and a scornful trampling over the heads of our brethren , and perhaps the calling in the secular arm to remove the opposition it would meet with ; principles and practices infinitely contrary to the mild and humble spirit of the gospel . and now let the reader judge what power the pope had over the african churches , so solemnly denied , so stiffly oppos'd , not by two or three , but by two or three hundred bishops , twice met in council upon this occasion , and their judgment herein not precipitated , but past upon most mature and deliberate debate and consultation , and after that the cause had been depending for five or six years together . the truth is , so great a shock is this to the papal power , that the advocates of that church know not which way to decline it . at last stands up one , * who not being able to unty , resolv'd to cut the knot , directly charging both the acts of the council , and the epistles to boniface and caelestine , without any warrant from antiquity , to be forg'd and supposititious . but the best of it is , the writers in this cause that came after him , had not the hardiness to venture in his bottom . nor have any of the many publishers of the councils since that time stigmatiz'd them with the least suspicion of being spurious , nor taken any notice of the trifling exceptions he makes against them . ix . from africk let us sail into britain , and see how things stood in our own country , the first nation of the whole western world that received the christian faith ; it being planted here ( as gildas , an authour of untainted credit , and no inconsiderable antiquity , informs us , and he speaks it too with great assurance ) * tempore summo tiberii caesaris , in the latter time of tiberius his reign , which admit to have been the very last year of his life ( he died march the xvi . ann. chr. xxxvii . ) it was five or six years before 't is pretended s. peter ever came at , or founded any church at rome . christianity though struggling with great difficulties , and but lukewarmly entertain'd by some , yet as gildas assures us , made shift to keep up its head in the following ages , as is evident from some passes in origen , tertullian , and others , and from the known story of king lucius ( leuer maur as the britains call him , the great brightness ) the first christian king. but this we have particularly noted elsewhere * . religion being settled , that church government grew up here as in other countries , by bishops and then metropolitans , or superiour bishops , there can be no just cause to doubt . at the council of arles ann. cccxiv . we find three british bishops among others subscribing the decrees of that synod , eborius of york , restitutus of london ( the same perhaps that subscrib'd the determination made by the sardican synod ) adelfius de civitate coloniae londinensium , with sacerdos a priest , and arminius a deacon . after the empire had submitted to christianity , we cannot question but that religion prospered greatly in this island , and that constantine who made it his business to advance it in all places , would much more give it the highest encouragement in that place , to which he owed both his first breath and empire . what progress it made afterwards , i may not stand nicely to enquire ; 't is certain it flourish'd here under the roman government 'till the declension of the empire , when that guard and protection being withdrawn , the country became a prey to the neighbour picts and scots , as not long after to the saxons , a war-like but pagan nation , whom the britains had call'd in to their assistance , who drove the remainder of the britains , and with them religion into the mountains , where yet it throve under the greatest hardships . things continued thus , when ann. dxcvi. pope gregory the great sent austine the monk to convert these saxons , who after his first expedition being at arles consecrated arch-bishop of canterbury , applied himself more closely to this errand than he had done before . he found paganisme covering the greatest parts of the island , but withal a considerable church among the britains ; seven bishops * they had as bede informs us ; a number says bale * , conform'd to the seven churches of asia ; their sees were hereford , tavensis or landaff , lhan-padern-vaur , bangor , elviensis or s. asaph , worcester and morganensis , suppos'd by many to be glamorgan , but that being the same with landaff , r. hoveden * reckons chester in the room of it , or as bishop usher * thinks not improbable , it might be caer-guby or holy-head in the isle of anglesey . these seven were under the superintendency of a metropolitan , whose archiepiscopal see had been formerly at caer-leon upon uske ( the famous river isca ) in monmouthshire , but some years before austins arival had been translated to menevia or s. davids ( so call'd from the bishop that translated it ) in pembrook-shire , though for some time after retaining the title of arch-bishop of caer-leon . and to him were the welsh bishops subject , and by him ordain'd , as he by them , until the time of king henry the first . besides these episcopal sees , the britains had colledges or seminaries , and in them vast numbers of christian monks , who dwelt especially at bangor under the care and superintendency of abbot dinooth . but that which spoil'd all was , that this church had rites and usages * vastly different from them of rome , both in the observation of easter , the administration of baptism , and many other customes . a most infallible argument , that the britannick church had no dependance upon , had held no communication with the church of rome . their celebration of easter after the manner of the ancient asiatick churches , clearly shewing that they had originally deriv'd their religion from those eastern parts . to reduce therefore this church into subjection to rome , was a great part of austins work . in order whereunto by the help of king ethelbert , he procur'd a conference with them at a place upon the borders of worcester-shire , call'd from this occasion augustins oke . austin us'd all his arts to prevail upon them , perswaded , intreated , threatned , but in vain . after a long disputation they declar'd they preferr'd their own ancient traditions and customs , from which they might not depart without leave and liberty from their own church . nay , if the british fragment produc'd by one of our great antiquaries * be of any credit , abbot . dinoth plainly told him with a be it known to you , and without doubt , that they ow'd no more to the pope of rome , than to every godly christian , vzi. the obedience of love and brotherly assistance , other than this he knew none due to him , whom they call'd pope , and who claim'd to be own'd and styl'd father of fathers ; that for themselves they were under the government of the bishop of caer-leon upon uske , who under god was to oversee and guide them ▪ austin saw 't was to no purpose at present to treat further , and so reserv'd himself for another conference . a second therefore and a more general meeting is propounded and agreed to , whereto came the seven british bishops , and many other persons of learning , especially of the college of bangor . austin as before press'd them to a compliance with the roman and apostolick church . but they , offended with his proud and contemptuous treatment of them , never so much as rising out of his chair , at their coming to salute him , told him plainly , they would do nothing of what he demanded , nor would they own him for archbishop ; prudently arguing among themselves , if he would not now vouchsafe so much as to rise up to us , how much more when we have submitted to him , will he despise and scorn us . austin finding no good was to be done upon them , parted from them with this passionate farewel , that since they would not have peace with their brethren , they should have war from their enemies , and for as much as they refus'd to preach the way of life to the english , they should be punisht with death by their hands . and his word it seems was made good : for soon after ethelfrid king of northumberland , at the instigation ( as is said ) of ethelbert king of kent , march'd with a powerful army to caer-leon , and made great havock and destruction , and among the rest slew twelve hundred of the innocent monks of bangor , who were come along with their army , by fasting and prayer to intercede with heaven for its prosperous success . that austin was the first spring of this fatal tragedy , moving ethelbert , as he did ethelfrid , there are not only strong suspicions , but the thing is expresly affirm'd by several historians of no inconsiderable credit and antiquity . 't is true bede says this happened not till after austins death . but besides the inconsistency in point of chronology , 't is suspicious that passage was foisted into bede , it being wanting in the ancient saxon translation of king alfred , done within cl. years after bedes death . nay , though we should grant the slaughter to have happened after the death of austin , yet who knows not but he might easily lay the design with ethelbert , though himself liv'd not to see the execution . and the proud and haughty spirit of the man gives but too much encouragement to the suspicion . what became of the british churches after this , i am not concern'd to relate . 't is enough to my purpose , that from the very originals of this church it was independant upon rome , and that for six hundred years together ; nor could be brought to strike sail , 'till fire and sword ( the most powerful arguments of the papal cause ) had converted , that is , in effect ruin'd and destroy'd it . x. from the whole of what has been said , laid together , the impartial reader will easily make this conclusion , how vain and frivolous the pretences are to the popes patriarchal authority over the whole west , when there 's scarce any one western church that did not in those times stoutly appear against the incroachments of rome . but you 'll say , where then shall we find the roman patriarchate ? certainly within much narrower limits . and here nothing can offer it self with so much rational probability , as that his patriarchal jurisdiction was concurrent with that of the vicarius urbicus , or the lieutenant of rome , as his metropolitical was with that of the praefectus urbis , or city-provost . now the vicarius urbicus had ten provinces * under his government , four consular , viz. campania , tuscia , and umbria , picenum suburbicarium ( the suburbicary as well as other provinces being in some cases * , especially that of tribute , under the inspection of the praetorian praefect , and his lieutenant ) sicilia ; two correctorial , apulia with calabria , and lucania brutiorum ; four praesidial , samnium , sardinia , corsica , and valeria . this was the urbicary diocess , distinct from the italick diocess , the metropolis whereof was milan . within these bounds the bishops of rome , especially after the times of the nicene council took upon them to exercise jurisdiction , to call synods , ordain metropolitans , and dispatch other church-afairs . hence they had their usual synod , which was a kind of council in ordinary to the bishop of rome , and met upon all important occasions . such was the synod of pope damasus , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and of the bishops that assembled with him at rome , mention'd by athanasius * , as conven'd about his cause . such that of the bishops 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in those parts , spoken of by pope julius * , as concurring with him in his letter to the eastern bishops . the old roman notitia ( produc'd by baronius * out of the records of the vatican , but of an age much later than the times we write of ) tells us this synod consisted of lxx . bishops . and much about that number , we find them in the acts of councils , as in the synod under pope gelasius a , and in that under symmachus b . thus we find pope leo c requiring the bishops of sicily to send three of their number every year upon michaelmus-day to meet the roman synod , fraterno concilio soc●andi . and the synod of sardica * sending their decrees to pope julius , desire him to communicate them to the bishops in sicily , sardinia and italy , ( i. e. that part of italy that lay within the urbicary diocess ) that none of them might receive communicatory letters from any that had been depos'd in that council . and this was the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the multitude of bishops wherewith pope leo was encompast , and whom by vertue of the power and preheminence 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , of his own proper place and jurisdidiction he had conven'd out of many cities in italy , as the empress galla placidia speaks in her letter * to theodosius . not but that sometimes here ( as in other places ) ▪ we find foreign bishops convening in synods , with those under the jurisdiction of the roman bishop , especially upon some extraordinary emergencies : but then this was only in a brotherly way , and at the invitation of the chief bishop of those parts , and not that they were under his charge and government . he had no direct and immediate influence over any but those who lay within the bounds , over which the civil governours who resided at rome , extended their authority , and who no doubt fell in the willinglier with his jurisdiction , for the conveniency of their being aided and assisted by the church of rome . by all which we see , that no sooner were dioceses divided and settled by the civil constitution , but the roman bishop began to extend his jurisdiction commensurate to the urbicary diocess , within which his metropolitical was at last swallowed up . this the learned arch-bishop of paris * readily grants , and thinks is intimated in the ancient version of the nicene canon , which we mention'd before , where the bishop of rome is said to have principality over the suburbicary places , and all the province ; the first denoting the government of the provost , the latter that of the vicarius , or lieutenant of rome , and consequently the one represents the popes metropolitical , the other his patriarchal jurisdiction . 't is true he often tells us of a two-fold patriarchate the pope had , ordinary , and extraordinary , the one reaching to the urbicary diocess , the other over the whole west . but with how little reason and pretence of truth we noted before . we grant the pope had always great honour given him by all , and more by the western churches , but authoritative power he had not but over his own special diocess , nor does s. basil's styling him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the chief of the western bishops , imply any more than dignity and precedence ; or the empires being divided into east and west , and in allusion thereto the churches being sometimes distinguish'd into eastern and western make any more for his western patriarchate , than it did for the bishop of constantinoples being patriarch over the whole east . arguments which i should be asham'd to mention , but that they are produc'd by such great names , and are indeed the best they have in this matter . i grant that according to the ambitious humour of that church they were always attempting to enlarge their borders , and to propagate their power beyond its just limits : and partly by recommending persons to be bishops in foreign churches , and thence proceeding to impose them , partly by interposing in ordinations , and exacting an oath of obedience to the see of rome from the persons consecrated , partly by challenging the immediate decision of episcopal causes , and a power to confirme , translate , excommunicate , depose , or restore all delinquent bishops , partly by drawing appeals to rome , and taking the determination of matters from the cognizance of their proper judges , and arrogating the sole priviledge of judging and condemning heresies , partly by claiming to preside in all councils , and if disoblig'd , withholding their assent to the decrees of synods , partly by sending their legates into foreign countries to hear and decide cases , and take up controversies , by taking off , and engaging brisk and active bishops by honourary imployments , by sending commissions to the bishops of the greater sees , and lodging certain powers in their hands to act as their vicars within their several provinces , that so they might seem to derive their authority from the roman see , as they did at thessalonica , corinth , justiniana prima , arles , &c. partly by giving all imaginable encouragement to persons , whether of the clergy or laity to send to rome for the resolution of difficult and important cases , and partly by dispatching missionaries to convert pagan countries ; by these and infinite other the like arts and methods , they grew in time though not 'till some ages , to challenge and exercise a power over all the churches of the west . but from the beginning it was not so . the summ then of all that has been discours'd hitherto is this ; that as 't was the dignity of the city of rome gave the bishops of that place preheminence above all other primates or patriarchs , so 't was the division of the empire made by constantine , exalted his power from that of a metropolitan to a patriarch , and enlarged it to an equal extent with the diocess of the lieutenant of rome ; within which bounds they pretty well contain'd themselves 'till their pride and ambition began more openly to break out , and to disturb the peace and order of the church . chap. vi. the encroachments of the see of rome upon other sees , especially the see of constantinople . the roman bishops breaking the bounds of all laws and canons . their taking hold of all occasions of magnifying their own power . instances of julius , damasus , innocent , zosimus to this purpose . the briskness and activity of pope leo. his many letters written to advance the reputation of his authority . his jealous eye upon the growing greatness of the see of constantinople . the attempts and actings of his legates in the council of chalcedon . their mighty opposition against the passing the xxviii . canon of that synod . the fraud of paschasinus in citing the sixth canon of nice . their protestation against the power granted to the bishop of constantinople . pope leo's zeal and rage against these synodal proceedings . faelix his excommunicating acacius of constantinople . the pretended occasion of that sentence . the same spleen continued and carried on by pope gelasius . a reconciliation procur'd by the emperour justin between the bishops of rome and constantinople . pope john's insulting over epiphanius in his own church at constantinople . john the seconds raving letter to justinian . the bishop of constantinople assumes the title of oecumenical patriarch . this in what sence ( probably ) meant . the passionate resentment of pope pelagius hereat . the same zeal shew'd by his successour gregory the great . his letters written upon that occasion . the hard words he every where bestows upon that title . his mistake about the offer of that title to the pope in the chalcedon council . the true state of that case . this title frequently given to the constantinopolitan bishops in the council under menans , before john assum'd it . baronius's poor evasion of that matter . gregory still continues to thunder out anathema's against this title . all this suspected to be but noise , and the quarrel only because themselves had not the title . phocas his usurpation of the empire . the monstrous villany and wickedness of that man. pope gregory's scandalously flattering caresses to him and his empress . boniface the third makes suit to phocas , and procures the title of oecumenical to be affixt to the see of rome . the popes daily enlargement of their power and tyranny , and their advantages for so doing . the whole concluded with the canons or dictates of pope hildebrand . i. though custome and the canons of the church had set out the bishop of rome his proper portion in the ecclesiastick government , yet how hard is it for covetousness and ambition to keep within any bounds ? a spirit of pride still fermented in that see , that made them restless , 'till they had thrown down all enclosures , and that their sheaf alone ( as it was in joseph's vision ) arose and stood upright , and the sheaves of their brethren stood round about , and did obeysance to it . in the discovery whereof we shall only remark the more general attempts they made concerning it . and first nothing made more way to their usurpt dominion , than the magnifying their own power , and the priviledges of their church upon all occasions . ii. to begin no earlier than pope julius ; in his letters to the bishops of antioch , to make them more willing to submit their cause to be tried at rome , he had it seems highly extoll'd the greatness of that church , and the dignity and authority of his see , as appears by the summ of their answer * , and his rejoynder to their letter . not long after pope damasus writing also to the eastern bishops , commends * them that they had yielded due reverence to the apostolick see : and though this was spoken with modesty enough ( aw'd hereinto perhaps by the synod at rome , in whose name he wrote ) yet in his epistle * to them of numidia , and in general to all catholick bishops ( if that epistle be genuine ) he speaks out , telling them that according to ancient institutions , they did well in all doubtful cases to have recourse to him as to the head , and that this was founded upon custome and ecclesiastick canons ; concluding his long epistle thus , all which decretals , and the constitutions of all my predecessors , which have been publish'd concerning ecclesiastical orders and canonical discipline , we command to be observ'd by you , and all bishops and priests , so that whoever shall offend against them , shall not be received to pardon , the cause properly respecting us , who ought to steer the government of the church . this was most pontifically spoken , and boldly ventured at , especially if we consider how little the african bishops regarded the authority of the roman church , when the case of appeals arose a few years after , as we have already seen at large . siricius came next to damasus , and he in his letter * to himerius of taragon in spain , magnifies the roman church as the head of that body , and bids him convey those rules he had sent to all the bishops in that and the neighbour countries , it not being fit that any bishop should be ignorant of the constitutions of the apostolick see. innocent the first , more than once and again styles * the church of rome the fountain and head of all churches , and this built upon ancient canons ; and yet perhaps meant no more , than that it was the principal and most eminent church of the christian world : an honour , which upon several accounts intimated before , antiquity freely bestow'd upon it . zosunus in a letter to the council of carthage ( produc'd by baronius * out of a vatican copy ) makes a mighty flourish with the unlimited power of s. peter , that he had the care not only of the roman , but of all churches , ratified by the rules of the church , and the tradition of the fathers , that both by divine and humane laws this power descended upon the bishop of that see , whose sentence none might presume to reverse . iii. leo the great entred that see about the year ccccxl. a man of somewhat a brisker and more active temper , than those that had been before him , and one that studied by all imaginable methods to enlarge his jurisdiction , and being a man of parts and eloquence , did amplify and insinuate his power with more advantage . he tells * the mauritanian bishops , that he would dispence with the election of those bishops , who had been immediately taken out of the laity , so they had no other irregularity to attend them , not intending to prejudice the commands of the apostolick see , and the decrees of his predecessours ; and that what he pass'd by at present , should not hereafter go without its censure and punishment , if any one should dare to attempt , what he had thus absolutely forbidden . and elsewhere * that bishops and metropolitans were therefore constituted , that by them the care of the universal church might be brought to the one see of s. peter , and that there might be no disagreement between the head and the members . and in a sermon upon the martyrdom of peter and paul , in a profound admiration he breaks out * into this rhetorical address . these ( says he ) are the men that have advanced thee to this honour , that thou art become a holy nation , a peculiar people , a royal and priestly city , that being by the holy see of s. peter made head of the world , thou mightest govern farther by means of a divine religion , than by worldly power . for although enlarg'd by many victories , thou hast extended the bounds of thy empire both by sea and land , yet is it far less which thou hast conquer'd by force of arms , than that which thou hast gain'd by the peace of the church . iv. but leo was a man not only for speaking , but for action . he saw the emperours and the eastern bishops were resolv'd to advance the see of constantinople , that it might bear some proportion to the imperial court , and that the synod of constantinople had already adjudg'd it the place of honour next to rome ; that therefore it concern'd him to bestir himself to stifle all attempts that way , well knowing that the glory of that would eclipse his lustre , and cramp those designs of superiority and dominion , which the bishops of rome were continually driving on over the church of christ . a general council was now call'd to meet at chalcedon , ann. ccccli . wherein were present no less than six hundred and thirty bishops : hither pope leo sent his legates , furnished with peremptory instructions ( which they afterwards read openly in the synod ) to keep a quick eye upon all motions that way , and with all possible resolution to suppress them . at the opening of the council , the legates cunningly slipt in a clause , telling * the fathers , that they had such and such things in command from the most blessed and apostolical bishop of the city of rome , which was the head of all churches : which either was not heeded by that synod , or pass'd by in the sence before declar'd , as allowing it an honourary preheminence above the rest . in the fifth session of that council * the papal legates mov'd that the epistle of leo about the condemnation of nestorius might be inserted into the very definition of the council against that heresie . craftily foreseeing what a mighty reputation it would give the pope in the eye of the world , and to what vast advantage it might be stretch'd afterwards . but the council stiffly oppos'd the motion , and said , they freely own'd the letter and were ready to subscribe it , but would not make it part of the definition . the legates were angry , demanded the letter back again , and threatned to be gone , and to have a synod at rome . and when the emperour intimated some such thing , the bishops cried out , they were for the definition as it was , and they that did not like it , nor would subscribe it , might if they please get them gone to rome . after this , all things went on smoothly 'till they came to frame the canons , among which one was * , that the bishop of constantinople should enjoy equal priviledges with the bishop of rome ; and then the legates could hold no longer , plainly telling them , that this was a violation of the constitution of the great synod of nice , and that their commission oblig'd them by all ways to preserve the papal dignity , and to reject the designs of any , who relying upon the greatness of their cities , should attempt any thing to the contrary . to prove that this was contrary to the nicene decrees , they produc'd the sixth and seventh canons of that council , beginning thus as paschasinus repeated them , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 &c. the church of rome ever had the primacy . let egypt therefore have this priviledge , that the bishop of alexandria have power , &c. where instead of the first words of that canon 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 let ancient customs still take place , the legate shuffled in this sentence as more to his purpose , the church of rome ever had the primacy . and admitting here that this was only the title to that canon in the roman copy , yet 't is somewhat more than suspicious , that paschasinus intended it should be understood as part of the canon it self . which if so , there could not be a bolder piece of forgery and imposture . but the fathers were not to be so impos'd upon . aetius arch-deacon of constantinople produc'd a copy from among the records of that church , which he delivered to constantine the secretary , who read it according to the genuine words of the canon , without any such addition , let ancient customs still take place , &c. and in confirmation of that were next read the second and third canons of the second general council at constantinople . and because the legate had objected that the canon had been procur'd by fraud , the judges requir'd the bishops concern'd to declare their minds , who all readily declar'd the contrary . the case having been thus fully debated , and nothing material being alledg'd against it , the canon pass'd by the unanimous suffrage of the fathers , the roman legates only entring their protestation , and resolving to acquaint the pope with what was done , that so he might judge both of the injury done to his own see , and the violence offered to the canons . v. no sooner did the news of what had pass'd in the synod arrive at rome , but pope leo storm'd to purpose , wrote * to anatolius bishop of constantinople , charging him with pride and ambition , with invasion of the rights of others , with irreverence towards the nicene canons , contrary to which he had exalted himself above the bishops of alexandria and antioch . he dispatch'd * letters also to the emperour marcianus , to his lady the empress pulcheria , and to juvenal bishop of jerusalem , and the rest of the fathers of the synod , all to the same effect , complaining of the pride of anatolius , and the irregular proceedings of the council , that the priviledges of churches were destroy'd , the bounds of metropolitans invaded , many depressed to make way for one , venerable decrees made void , and ancient orders trodden in the dirt . that whatever rules were made contrary to the canons of nice were null , that the care and inspection of these things was committed to him , a duty which he could not neglect without being guilty of unfaithfulness to his trust , that therefore by the authority of s. peter he repeal'd and made void what ever any council had agreed upon , repugnant to the nicene canons , yea , though done by many more in number than were in that venerable synod , declaring that no regard or reverence was to be paid to their constitutions . in all which though nothing appear above ground but a mighty zeal for the honour of the nicene canons , yet 't is plain enough 't was his own ambition , his envy and emulation that lay at the bottom . and indeed , neither leo , nor any of the bishops of that see could ever pardon the chalcedon synod , not only for making the bishop of constantinople equal to him of rome , but for placing the primacy of the roman church , not in any divine right , but only in romes having been the seat of the empire . vi. henceforward they beheld the bishops of that place with an evil eye , as competitors with them in the government of the church , and the likeliest persons to give check to their extravagant designs , and therefore laid hold upon all occasions to weaken their interest , and to vent their spleen against their persons . and it was not long after , that a fit occasion presented it self . john the tabennosiot * had by gifts and bribes ( enabled thereto by being steward and treasurer of that church ) procur'd himself to be made bishop of alexandria , expresly contrary to his oath lately made to the emperour zeno , that he would never attempt that see. for which he caus'd him to be expell'd , and peter mongus , who had been heretofore consecrated to that place to be restor'd . peter was a patron of the eutychian heresie , but which at first he craftily dissembled , insinuating himself into the favour and friendship of acacius bishop of constantinople , who constantly held communion with him . but was so far from siding with him in any heretical sentiments , that no sooner did he hear * that peter had publickly anathematiz'd the chalcedon council , but he dispatch'd messengers to alexandria to know the truth of things , before whose eys peter cast a mist , having form'd a judicial process about that matter , and brought in persons to depose that he had done no such thing . nay , he himself wrote * to acacius , assuring him , that the charge was false , and that he had , and did confirm and embrace the council of chalcedon ; though all this was pretence and elaborate hypocrisie . john driven out from alexandria , flies to rome , giving out himself to be a martyr for the cause of pope leo , and the faith of the chalcedon synod . welcome he was to pope simplicius , who wrote to the emperour in his behalf ; but dying not long after his arrival , his successour faelix readily espous'd the quarrel , and after some preparatory messages and citations ( wherein he required of the emperour zeno , that acacius might be sent to rome , there to answer what john of alexandria laid to his charge ) taking advantage of two synods at rome , held one soon after the other , twice excommunicated and depos'd acacius , for communicating with him of alexandria . letter after letter he wrote both to the emperour , and the clergy and people of constantinople , that the sentence against acacius might be own'd and put into execution , who yet continued in his see 'till his death , without any great regard to the sentence from rome , which he so far slighted * , that to be even with him , he struck the popes name out of the diptychs , to shew the world he renounc'd all communion with him . this so much the more enrag'd his enemies at rome , who all his life long pelted him with continual clamours and threatnings . nay , faelix and his successours persecuted his very memory , denouncing censures against any that should mention his name with respect and honour . and i cannot but observe that in the edict * that was pass'd against him at rome , mention is made of nothing but contumacy against the popes admonitions , the ill usage and imprisonment of his legates , and the affront therein offered to his person , and in the excommunicatory letter sent to acacius himself , though favouring of hereticks was the great and indeed only thing pretended abroad , yet the very first thing wherewith he charges him , is contempt of the nicene council , and invading the rights of other mens provinces . it seems though he was loth to speak out , it was the decree of the late synod of chalcedon still stuck in his stomach , by which the constantinopolitan patriarch had been advanc'd to so much power in the east , and made equal to him of rome . and indeed gelasius , who came after faelix , says * plainly , that the apostolick see never approv'd that part of the chalcedon canons , that it had given no power to treat about it , and by its legates had protested against it , and thence most infallibly inferrs , that therefore it was of no authority or value ; and accordingly peter of alexandria , which was the second see ( i. e. according to the constitution of the nicene canon ) could not be duly absolv'd by any other power then that of the first see , i. e. his own ; accounting that of constantinople ( as he elsewhere * asserts ) not to be reckon'd so much as among metropolitan sees : and as he argues in his epistle * to the emperour anastasius , if christians be oblig'd in general to submit to their regular bishops , how much more should submission be made to the bishop of that see , to whom both god and the subsequent piety of the church have always given the preheminence above all bishops ; and so he goes on , according to the custome of the men , to speak big words of the authority and priviledges of the apostolick see. vii . several years this breach that had been made remain'd , 'till justin , a man of very mean originals , having by no good arts gain'd the empire , thought it his interest to oblige and unite all parties . and first he begins to court the pope , to whome he wrote * , giving him an account of his advancement to the empire , and begging his prayers to god to confirm and establish it . this hormisda in his answer calls a paying the first fruits of his empire due to s. peter . hereupon reconciliation is offered , and john bishop of constantinople writes to him to that purpose , which he at length consents to upon this condition , that the name of acacius might be stricken out of the diptychs ; which at last is done , and that of the pope again put in , and so a peace is piec'd up , and the catholick faith profess'd on both sides , according to the decrees of the four general councils . and though epiphanius , who succeeded john in the see of constantinople , maintain'd the same correspondence , yet when ever it came to any important instance , the pope could not forget his proud domineering temper over the bishops of that church . which sufficiently appear'd about this very time , when john the first , hermisda's successour , being by theodorick king of the goths sent embassadour to constantinople , with this message to the emperour justin , either that he should restore to the arians their churches in the east , or expect that the catholicks in italy should have the same measures , he departed from rome with weeping eyes and a sad heart , being grieved not more to be made the bearer of a message , so contrary to his judgment , than to be put upon an imployment that seemed a diminution to the papal dignity ; he being ( as marcellinus * observes ) the only pope that had ever been commanded out of the city upon any such errand . however arriving at the imperial city , he resolved to keep up his port , entred with great state , and being invited * to sit upon a seat even with that of epiphanius bishop of that church , he refus'd , telling them he would maintain the prerogative of the apostolick see , not giving over , 'till a more eminent throne was purposely plac'd for him above that of the bishop of constantinople . as if it had not been enough to reproach and vilify him at a distance , unless contrary to all laws and canons , and to the rules of modesty , civility and reason , he also trampled upon him in his own church . nay , anastasius * adds , that the emperour in honour to god came before him , and prostrated himself upon the ground to adore and worship him . pope john the second , about ten years after writing * to justinian ( though there want not very learned men , who question the credit of that epistle ) talks stylo romano , just after the rate of his predecessours ; he tells the emperour , 't was his singular honour and commendation , that he preserv'd a reverence for the roman see , that he submitted all things to it , and reduc'd them to the unity of it , a right justified by s. peter's authority , conveyed to him by that authentick deed of gift , feed my sheep ; that both the canons of the fathers , and the edicts of princes , and his majesties own professions declar'd it to be truly the head of all churches . where yet ( as in infinite other expressions of that nature in the pontifical epistles ) he warily keeps himself within general terms , capable of a gentler or a brisker interpretation , as it stood with their interest to improve . viii . wearied out with continual provocations , oppositions and affronts from rome , the patriarchs of constantinople began to think upon some way , by which they might be better enabled to bear up against them . to this end , john who from his extraordinary abstinence was sir-nam'd nesteutes or the faster , being then bishop of that see in a synod conven'd there ann. dlxxxix . about the cause of gregory bishop of antioch , procur'd the title of oecumenical or universal bishop to be conferr'd upon him ; with respect probably , to that cities being the head seat of the empire , which was usually styl'd orbis romanus , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the universe , or whole world , and it could not be therefore thought extravagant , if the bishop of it did assume a proportionable title of honour , nothing appearing that hereby he laid claim to any extraordinary jurisdiction . nor indeed is it reasonable to conceive , that the eastern patriarchs ( who as evagrius , who was advocate for gregory in that synod , tells us * ) were all either by themselves or their legates present in this council , together with very many metropolitans , should at one cast throw up their own power and authority , and give john an absolute empire and dominion over them ; and therefore can be suppos'd to grant no more , than that he being the imperial patriarch should alone enjoy that honorable title above the rest . besides that every bishop as such , is in a sence intrusted with the care and sollicitude of the universal church , and though for conveniency limited to a particular charge , may yet act for the good of the whole . upon this ground it was , that in the ancient church , so long as order and regular discipline was observ'd , bishops were wont upon occasion not only to communicate their councils , but to exercise their power and functions beyond the bounds of their particular diocess , and we frequently find titles and characters given to particular bishops ( especially those of patriarchal sees ) equivalent to that of universal bishop : i cannot but mention that passage of theodorit , who speaking of nestorius his being made bishop of constantinople , says * , that he was intrusted with the presidency of the catholick church of the orthodox there , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which was nothing less then that of the whole world. a passage which perhaps might the more incourage and invite john at this time to assume the title . ix . but in what sence soever intended , it sounded high ▪ but especially made a loud noise at rome , where they were strangely surpris'd to find themselves outshot in their own bow ; for though they had all along driven on the design with might and main , yet they had hitherto abstain'd from the title . pelagius , who at this time sat in that chair , was extreamly netled at it , and immediately dispatch'd letters * to john and the bishops of his synod , wherein he rants against this pride and folly , talks high of the invalidity of all conciliary acts without his consent and approbation , charges them , though summon'd by their patriarch , not to appear at any synod , without authority first had from the apostolick see , threatens john with excommunication , if he did not presently recant his error , and lay aside his unjustly usurpt title of universal bishop ; affirming that none of the patriarchs might use that profane title , and that if any one of them were styl'd oecumenical , the title of patriarch would be taken from the rest , a piece of insolence which ought to be far from all true christians ; with a great deal more to the same effect . i know the last publishers of the councils make this epistle to be spurious , a false piece of ware patch'd up in insidore mercators shop . but however that be , plain it is from s. gregory * , ( who sent copies of them to the bishops of antioch and alexandria ) that pelagius did write such letters , wherein by the authority of s. peter he rescinded the acts of that synod , propter nephandum elationis vocabulum , for the sake of that proud and ungodly title , prohibiting his arch-deacon then at constantinople , so much as to be present at prayers with the patriarch of that place . x. gregory the great succeeded pelagius , whose apocrisiarius , or agent he had been at constantinople when the thing was done . a man of good learning , and greater piety , and of somewhat a more meek and peaceable temper , then most of those that had gone before him , which perhaps he owed in a great measure , to those sad calamitous times , he so oft complains of , wherein he liv'd : and yet as tender in this point as his predecessours . john of constantinople had lately sent him an account * of the proceedings in the case of john presbyter of chalcedon , wherein he took occasion to style himself oecumenical patriarch almost in every sentence . this touch'd pope gregory to the quick , and as he had an excellent talent at writing letters , he presently sends to mauritius the emperour , to the empress constantina , to the patriarchs of alexandria and antioch , to john himself , and to sabinian his own deacon then residing at constantinople . in all which he strains all the nerves of his rhetoric to load the case with the heaviest aggravations , complaining * that by the contrivance of this proud and pompous title , the peace of the church , the holy laws , and venerable synods , yea and the commands of our lord jesus himself ( who by that instrument , tu es petrus , &c. had committed the care of the whole church to peter , prince of the apostles ) were disturb'd and shatter'd ; that it better became bishops of this time rather to lye upon the ground , and to mourn in sackcloth and ashes , than to affect names of vanity , and to glory in new and profane titles , a piece of pride and blasphemy , injurious to all other bishops , yea to the whole church , and which it became the emperour to restrain : * that by this new arrogancy and presumption he had lift up himself above all his brethren , and by his pride had shewn , that the times of antichrist were at hand ; that he wondred the emperour should write to him to be at peace with the bishop of constantinople , chiding * sabinian his deacon for not preventing the emperour's commands being sent to him . to eulogius bishop of alexandria , and anastasius of antioch ( whom elsewhere * he tickles with their three sees being the only three apostolical sees founded by s. peter prince of the apostles , and that they mutually reflected honour upon each other ) he represents , * how great a diminution this was to their dignity , that they should therefore give none this title , for that so much undue honour as they gave to another , so much they took away of what was due to themselves ; that this fond attempt was the invention of him , who goes about as a roaring lyon , seeking whom he may devour , and a forerunner of him , who is king over all the children of pride . he tells john * himself , and that as he pretends with tears in his eyes , that unless he quitted this proud foolish title , he must proceed further with him , and that if his profane and ungodly humour could not be cur'd by gentler methods , it must be lanc'd by canonical severity ; that by this perverse ▪ title he had imitated the devil , and had made himself like to lucifer son of the morning , who said , i will ascend above the heights of the clouds , i will exalt my throne above the stars of god ; telling us , that by clouds and stars we are to understand bishops , who water by their preaching , and shine by the light of their conversation , whom while he despis'd and trod upon , and proudly lift up himself above them , what did he but aspire above the height of the clouds , and exalt his throne above the stars of heaven ; that such proud attempts had been always far from him or his predecessors , who had refus'd the title of universal bishop , when for the honour of s. peter prince of the apostles , the venerable council of chalcedon offered it to them . xi . in which last passage ( inculcated by him at every turn , no less * than four or five several times ) i cannot but remark either his carelesness , or insincerity ; carelesness , in taking such an important passage upon trust ; or insincerity , if knowing it to be otherwise , to lay so much stress upon so false and sandy a foundation . for the truth is , neither were his predecessors so modest , that i know of , as to refuse such a title , neither did the synod of chalcedon ever offer it to them . there being nothing in all the acts of that council that looks this way more than this , that four persons that came from alexandria with articles against dioscorus their bishop , exhibited their several libels of accusation , which they had presented to pope leo ( who had beforehand espoused the quarrel ) with this inscription , to leo the most holy and religious oecumenical archbishop and patriarch of great rome . these libels the papal legats desired might be inserted into the acts of the council ; which was done accordingly ( as is usual in all judiciary proceedings ) for no other reason ( as the synod it self tells * us ) but this , that remaining there , they might thence be again rehears'd in council , when dioscorus himself should appear , and come to make his defence . this is the true state of the case , and now let the reader judge , whether the council offer'd the pope this title , when they were so far from approving it , that they did not so much as once take notice of it . i do not deny , but that the pope's legats might have an eye that way , and design to have that title remain among the records of the council ( as they were watchful stewards to improve all advantages for their master ; ) and therefore we find them sometimes subscribing * themselves vice-gerents of leo of rome , bishop of the universal church , which yet elsewhere * they thus explain , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the apostolical and chief bishop of the whole church . but however they intended it , certain it is for any thing that appears to the contrary , that the fathers themselves never dreamt of any such matter , and accordingly when they came * singly to declare their judgments about the epistle of pope leo , they style him only pope , or archbishop of rome , nor do his legates there give him any other title . and in their synodal epistle * to him , they superscribe it only , to the most holy and blessed archbishop of rome . binius * indeed will have the word oecumenical to have been in the inscription , and that it was maliciously struck out by some transcriber , because ( says he ) in the body of the epistle the fathers own leo to be the head of the universal church , and the father of all bishops . when as the letter has not one word to that purpose , more than this , that as the head presides over the members , so did leo over the bishops in that synod ; which can import no more than his presiding by his legates ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in his qui tuas vices gerebant , as the last publishers of the councils truly correct the translation ) in that council . but suppose the pope had had this title conferr'd upon him , ( as gregory untruly affirms ) 't was no more than what was frequently given to the patriarch of constantinople , as , to omit other instances , is evident from the council holden there ann. dxxxvi . under mennas , and another under john 18 years before , where john and mennas , successively bishops of that see , have both in the acts of those councils , and in libels of address from whole synods , the title of oecumenical patriarch near twenty times bestow'd upon them . and this was several years before it was assum'd by that patriarch john whom we mention'd before . and 't is methinks a sorry evasion of baronius * , and his footman binius ‖ ( though 't is that which they always have at hand , when an argument pinches , which they know not how to decline ) that this title was foisted into the acts of the council by some later greeks . and yet they produce no authority , no nor shadow of pretence from any ancient copy that ever it was otherwise . and what if the church of rome did receive the acts of that council , and yet make no such clamours and loud outcry against it ? perhaps it did not intirely admit the acts of that synod under john of constantinople ann. dxviii . binius himself says , they were but magna ex parte recepta , in a great measure receiv'd by the church of rome . and who knows whether this title might not be some part of what was rejected . but if not , perhaps the popes might slight it as a title only accidentally given , not claim'd as due . whereas pelagius and gregory rant so much against the other john , because he assum'd it in opposition to rome , and had it by a solemn synodical act conferr'd upon him . i observe no more concerning this , than that leo allatius * ( who is not wont to neglect the least hint that may serve his cause ) speaking of this passage , barely takes notice of baronius's inference , without the least sign of his approving it . but to return . xii . while gregory was venting these passionate resentments , john the patriarch dies . but the quarrel died not with him , cyriacus , who came after him , keeping up the title . this put the popes passion into a fresh ferment , and now all the hard things are said over again , and cyriacus * is warn'd to lay aside the scandal of that ungodly title , that had given so much offence ; and that * he would hold no communion with him 'till he had renounc'd that proud and superstitious word , which was the invention of the devil , and laid * a foundation for antichrist to take possession , nay peremptorily affirms * with an ego autem fidenter dico , that whoever either styles himself , or desires to be styl'd by others , universal bishop , is by that very pride of his a fore-runner of antichrist . and when he understood that john bishop of thessalonica , urbicius of dyrrachium , john of corinth , and several others , were summoned to a synod at constantinople , not knowing whether a snake might not lye hid in the grass , he writes * to them , giving them an account of the rise and progress of that proud and pestiferous title , ( as he calls it ) cautioning them not only not to use it themselves , but not to consent to it in others , nor by any overt act to approve or own it ; and if any thing should be craftily started in the synod in favour of it , he adjures them by all that is sacred , that none of them would suffer themselves to be wrought upon by any arts of flattery and insinuation , of rewards or punishments to assent to it , but stoutly oppose themselves against it , and couragiously drive out the wolf that was breaking into the fold . xiii . he that shall view these passages , and look no farther than the outside of things , will be apt to think , surely s. gregory was the most self-denying man in the world , and that he and his successors would sooner burn at a stake , than touch this title . and yet notwithstanding all these passionate outcries , 't is shrewdly suspicious , that they were levell'd not so much against the title it self , as the person that bore it . we have taken notice all along what an inveterate pique the bishops of rome had against those of constantinople , ever since the emperours and councils had made them equal to them , and this now added to all the rest , seem'd to exalt constantinople infinitely above s. peter's see. had this title been synodically conferr'd upon the pope , we had heard none of this noise and clamour ; but for him to be pass'd by , and his enemy the patriarch of constantinople to be crown'd with this title of honour , 't was this dropt the gall into his ink. and therefore in the midst of all this humility he ceas'd not to challenge a kind of supremacy over that bishop : who doubts ( says he * ) but that the church of constantinople is subject to the apostolic see , a thing which both the emperour , and eusebius the bishop of it , daily own . but this 't is plain is there spoken in the case of rites and ceremonies , wherein it seems all churches must take their measures from rome ; unless with spalato * we understand it of a subjection in point of order and dignity , that rome was the first see , and constantinople the second . the truth is , to me the passage seems suspected , and that constantinople is there thrust in for some other place ; and the rather , because there was no eusebius at that time bishop of that see , nor for a long time either before or after . however , gregory had all his eyes about him , that no disadvantage might surprise him ; and therefore in his letter to the bishops of greece ( mentioned before ) that were going to the synod at constantinople , he tells them , that although nothing should be attempted for the confirmation of the universal title , yet they should be infinitely careful , that nothing should be done there to the prejudice of any place or person : which though coucht in general terms , yet whoever understands the state of those times , and the pope's admirable tenderness in those matters , will easily see , that he means himself . and indeed , that the bishops of rome look'd upon the title of oecumenical bishop to be foul and abominable only 'till they could get it into their own hands , is evident , in that gregory had scarce been 12 months cold in his grave , when pope boniface the third got that title taken from constantinople , and affix'd to the see of rome ; the manner whereof we shall a little more particularly relate . xiv . mauricius the emperour had in his army a centurion call'd phocas , one whose deformed looks were the index of a more brutish and mishapen mind . he was * angry , fierce , bloody , ill-natur'd , debauch'd , and unmeasurably given to wine and women ; so bad , that when a devout monk * of that time oft expostulated with god in prayer , why he had made him emperour , he was answer'd by a voice from heaven , because i could not find a worse . this man taking the opportunity of the soldiers mutinying , murder'd the emperour , and possess'd his throne , which he fill'd with blood , and the most savage barbarities . ten of the imperial family * he put to death , and so far let loose the reins to fierceness and cruelty , that he had it in design , to cut off all those , whom nobility , or wisdom , or any generous or honourable actions had advanc'd above the common rank . and yet as bad as this lewd villain was , scarce was he warm in the throne when he receiv'd addresses from pope gregory , who complemented the tyrant , and that too in scripture-phrase , at such a rate , that i know not how to reconcile it with the honesty of a good man. his letter * begins with a glory be to god on high , who , according as it is written , changes times , and transfers kingdoms , who gives every one to understand so much , when he says by his prophet , the most high ruleth in the kingdom of men , and giveth it to whomsoever he will. the whole letter is much of the same strain , representing the happy advantages the world would reap under the benign influences of his government . and in another * written not long after he tells him , what infinite praise and thanks they ow'd to almighty god , who had taken off the sad and heavy yoak , and had restor'd times of liberty under the conduct of his imperial grace and piety . he wrote * likewise to the empress leontia ( one who is said to have been not one jot better than her husband ) with flattering caresses ; and under abundance of good words , courts her kindness and patronage to the church of s. peter , which he fails not to back with , thou art peter , and upon this rock , &c. to thee i will give the keys , &c. xv. not long after gregory dies , and sabinian , who succeeded , living not full six months , boniface the third of that name takes the chair . he had very lately been apocrisiarius , or the pope's legate at constantinople , where he wanted not opportunities to insinuate himself into the favour of phocas , and the courtiers . and now he thought it a fit time to put in for what the popes notwithstanding all the pretences of self-denial , so much desir'd , the title of universal bishop , and the rather because cyriacus patriarch of constantinople , was at this time under disfavour at court. from the very first entrance upon the papacy he dealt * with phocas about this matter , and at length gain'd the point , though not without some considerable difficulty and opposition , aegre nec sine multa contentione , as my authors have it . at last out comes an edict from phocas , commanding , that the church of rome should be styl'd and esteem'd the head of all churches , and the pope universal bishop . a rare charter sure , not founded upon the canons of the church , but upon an imperial edict , and this edict too granted by the vilest and the worst of men. but so they had it , no matter how they came by it . and now that title that had so lately been new , vain , proud , foolish , prophane , wicked , hypocritical , presumptuous , perverse , blasphemous , devilish , and antichristian , became in a moment not only warrantable , but holy and laudable , being sanctified by the apostolic see. xvi . from henceforth the church of rome sate as queen , and govern'd in a manner without control . for the empire being broken in the west by the irruptions of the lombards into italy , and its power declining in the east by the successful invasions of the saracens , the emperours were but little at leasure to support and buoy up the honour of the constantinopolitan patriarchate . advantages which the popes knew well enough how to improve . and indeed every age made new additions to the height of the papal throne , and the pride of that church increasing proportionably to its power and grandeur , hector'd the world into submission to the see of rome , which as imperiously imposed its commands and principles upon other churches , as tyrants do laws upon conquer'd countries . witness ( for a concluding instance ) those extravagant canons * or articles , ( dictates he calls them ) which pope gregory the seventh publish'd about the year mlxxv. i know monsieur launoy ‖ has attempted to shew that these dictates concerning the prerogative of the see apostolic were not fram'd by gregory the seventh . whether his reasons be conclusive , i am not now at leasure to enquire . sure i am they are without any scruple own'd for his by baronius , and generally by all the writers of that church : and launoy himself is forc'd to grant , that several of them are agreeable enough to the humour , pretensions , and decrees of that pope . they run thus . 1. that the church of rome is founded by our lord alone . 2. that the bishop of rome only can be truly styl'd universal bishop . 3. that he alone has power to depose or reconcile bishops . 4. that his legate , though of an inferiour degree , is above all bishops in council , and may pronounce sentence of deposition against them . 5. that the pope may depose absent bishops . 6. that where any are excommunicated by him , we may not , among other things , so much as abide in the same house with them . 7. that he only may , according to the necessity of times , make new laws , constitute new churches , turn a canonry into an abby , and on the contrary divide a rich bishoprick , and unite such as are poor . 8. that it is lawful only for him to use the imperial ornaments . 9. that all princes shall kiss none but the pope's feet . 10. that his name alone shall be recited in churches . 11. that there is but one only name in the world [ that is , that of pope . ] 12. that it is in his power to depose emperours . 13. that in case of necessity he may translate bishops from one see to another . 14. that wheresoever he please , he may ordain a clerk to any church . 15. that whoever is ordain'd by him , may have the government of any other church , but may not bear arms , nor may receive a superiour degree from any bishop . 16. that no council ought to be call'd general without his command . 17. that no chapter nor book shall be accounted canonical without his authority . 18. that no man may reverse sentence past by him , and he only may reverse all others . 19. that he ought not to be judg'd by any . 20. that none presume to condemn any person that appeals to the apostolic see. 21. that the weightier causes of every church ought to be referr'd to that see. 22. that the church of rome never err'd , nor , as the scripture testifies , shall ever err . 23. that the bishop of rome , if canonically ordain'd , is by the merits of s. peter undoubtedly made holy , as s. ennodius bishop of pavia bears witness , favour'd herein by many of the holy fathers , as is contain'd in the decrees of the blessed pope symmachus . 24. that by his leave and command subjects may accuse [ their superiours . ] 25. that without any synod he may depose and reconcile bishops . 26. that no man shall be accounted catholic , that agrees not with the church of rome . 27. that it is in his power to absolve the subjects of unjust governours from their fealty and allegiance . these were maxims with a witness , deliver'd like a true dictator and head of the church . and it shew'd , the world was sunk into a prodigious degeneracy , when a man durst but so much as think of obtruding such principles upon the consciences of men , and imposing them upon the belief of mankind . the end . books printed for , and sold by richard chiswell . folio . speed's maps and geography of great britain and ireland , and of foreign parts . dr. cave's lives of the primitive fathers , in 2. vol. dr. cary's chronological account of ancient time. wanley's wonders of the little world , or hist . of man. sir tho. herbert`s travels into persia , &c. holyoak's large dictionary , latine and english . sir rich. baker's chronicle of england . wilson's compleat christian dictionary . b. wilkin's real character , or philosophical language . pharmacopoeia regalis collegii medicorum londinensis . judge jones's 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hook's new philosophical collections . dr. burnet's relation of the massacre of the protestants in france . dr. burnet's conversion and persecutions of eve cohan a jewess of quality lately baptized christian . dr. burnet's letter written upon discov . of the late popish plot. dr. burnet's impiety of popery being a second letter written on the same occasion . dr. burnet's sermon before the lord mayor upon the fast for the fire , 1680. dr. burnet's fast serm. before the house of com. dec. 22. 80. dr. burnet's sermon on the 30. of january 1681. dr. burnet's sermon at the election of the l. mayor . 1681. dr. burnet's sermon at the funeral of mr. houblon . 1682. dr. burnet's answer to the animadversions on his history of the rights of princes , 1682. dr. burnet's decree made at rome 1679. condemning some opinions of the jesuites and other casuists . published by dr. burnet , with a preface . dr. burnet's a letter giving a relation of the present state of the difference between the french 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antiquitate & dignitate . de ▪ physiognomia & de monstris . cum figuris & authoris notis illustratae , octavo . d. spenceri dissertationes de ratione rituum judaicorum , &c. fol. notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a31419-e270 epist . ad philadelph . p. 30. vid. ad trall . p. 16. notes for div a31419-e510 mat. xxiii . 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 12. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 chrysost . in loc . 1 pet. v. 3 , 5. life of s. greg. naz. sect. v. num. ix . notes for div a31419-e3100 joh. xx . 21. 1 pet. v. 1 , 2 , 3. 11 cor. xi . 5. gal. ii . 7. — 9. rev. xxi . 14. matth. xix . 28. matth xx . 25 , 26 , 27. * de rom. pontif. l. 2. c. 1. col. 5●9 . c. 12. col. 628. l. 4. c. 4. col. 803. * l. 2. c. 12. l. 4. c. 4. ubi supr . * barlaam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 25. edit . graec. * firmil . ep. ad cypr. inter ep. cypr. p. 150. * epist . 74. ad pomp. per tot . p. 129. * epist . supr . cit . p. 143 , &c. * synod . carth. apud cypr. p. 282. * adv. haeres . l. 3. c. 3. p. 232. * epist . 162. col . 728. * euseb . h. eccl. l. 6. c. 14. p. 216. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 herod . hist . l. 1. in vit . commod . p. 32. tibi proficiscentium major facultas fuit : primò , quia in commune imperii caput undique gentium convenitur ; tum , quod clementissimum principem in hac parte degentem , varia omnium desideria vel necessitates sequuntur . symmach . l. 4. epist . xxviii . ( ad protad . ) vid. sis not lectii . * de fid . cathol . c. th. leg . 2. vid. soz. l. 7. c. 4. p. 708. * lib. 27. p. 1739. * hieron . ad pammach . adv . error . jo. hierosol . p. 165. * ap. euseb . h. e. l. 4. c. 23. p. 145. * epist . v. concil . tom. ii . col . 876. * innoc. epist . i. ibid. col . 1245. * epist . 10. ad gregor , p. 54. * ap. baron . ad an. 372. t. 4. p. 322. * prim. chr. part. 1. ch. 8. p. 227. edit . 1. vid. breerwoods quaer . 1. & berter . pithan . fere per tot . aliique . * can. 9. * cypr. epist . xxxiii . p. 47. xxxii . p. 46. * vid. cone . nic. can. iv . * cornel. epist . ad fab. antioch . ap . eus . l. 6. c. 43. p. 245. * epist . xxix . p. 41. * epist . xxx . p. 42. * epist . xlii. p. 56. * epist . lxvii . infin . * epist . lv. p. 78. * epist . xli. p. 55. * optat. l. 1. p. 27 , &c. & const . epist . ad melch. ap . euseb . l. 10. c. 5. p. 391. * vid. conc. tom. 1. col . 1428. * epist . cclxxxii . p. 802. vid. epiph. haeres . 68. p. 307. sozom . l. 1. c. 24. p. 438. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nist territorium est universitas agrorum intra fines cujusque civitatis : quod ab eo dictum quidam aiunt quod magistratus ejus loci intra eos fines terrendi , id est , submovendi jus habet . l. 239. § 7. de verb. signific . * geograph . l. 4 p. 186. vid. plin. l. 3. c. 4. p. 39. * lib. 17. p. 84. * vid. j. front. de colon . inter s●r . rei agr. à goes . edit . p. 141. frag . de term. ib. p. 148. * lib. 53. in vit . august . * sirmond . censur . p. 1. c. 2. p. 10. aleand . refut . conject . p. 1. c. 3. p. 25. * lib. 3. c. 5. p. 41. front. ib. p. 118. 123. & alibi . * ib. p. 127. ‖ ib. p. 144. * hyg . de limit . ib. p. 211. * appar . ad primat . pap . p. 273. can. ix . * de bell-jud . l. 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 854. * hist . l. 2. p. 359. * in can. ii. concil . c p. p. 88. * l. allat . de consens . eccles . orient . & occid . l. 1. c. 12. n. 4. p. 190. * alex. arist . in loc . * epit. can. sect. i. tit. i. in jur. gr. rom. p. 1. * epist . xlix . p. 63. * epist . ad solit . p. 644. * dionys . de script . orb. vers . 355. p. 8. * dion . orat. xxxii . ( ad alex . ) p. 362 * orat. in rom. p. 358. tom. 1. * alexand. ap . eustath . comment . in homer . i●iad . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . stephan . in v. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . * can. ix . * can. ii . * can. xxviii . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , p. 8. edit . graec. vid. barlaam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p. 26. * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p. 374. fac . 2. edit . graec. ‖ l. allat . ib. c. 2. n. 6 , 7 , &c. p. 12 , &c. morin . exercit . eccles . l. 1. exerc . 1. p. 9. * morin . ib. p. 8. 11. vide sis etiam hieron . aleand . de region . suburb . dissert . 11. c. 2. p. 90. * vit. i. morin . p. 5. 7. * melet. alex. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p. 14. * constantinopolitana ecclesia omnium aliarum est caput . lib. 1. cod. just . tit. 11. l. 24. * concil . ephes . can. viii . * can. xxxix * ap. theod. l. 1. c. 6. p. 31. a can. xix . b can. xii . c can. vi . d can. xii . e can. i. f can. xxv . g conc. chalced. act. xiii . col . 715. * can. ix . * de primat . c. 4. p. 57. * de concord . l. 6. c. 1. n. 9. p. 176. * epist . dionys . corinth . episc . ap . eus . l. 4. c. 23. p. 144. * euseb . h. eccl. l. 5. c. 23. p. 190 ▪ * de script . in bacchyl . c. 44. * a papp● edit . p. 7. * vid. epist . xlii. p. 56. xlv . p. 59. * loc. ●itat . * l. allat . ib. c. 8. n. 1. p. 158. filesac . de s. episc . auctor . c. 9. §. 3. p. 225. * bellarm. de r. pont. l. 2. c. 18. col . 659 aleand . de reg . suburb . part. ii. c. 4. p. 142. sirmond . censur . p. ii. c. 5. p. 76. * ap. theod. l. 2. c. 16. p. 94. * ib. 16 n. 2. col . 240. a ap. vlp. de offic praef . urb . l. 1. ff . §. 4. lib. 1. tit. 12. & collat . ll. mosac . tit. 14. de plag . b form. lib. 5. p. 207 c l. 3. c. th. lib. 9. tit. 30. l. 3. lib. 11. tit. 3. l. 9. tit. 16. ib. d l. 9. c. th. lib. 11. tit. 1. l. 12. tit. 16. ib. l. 12. tit. 28. e l. 13. c. th. lib. 9. tit. 1. f vlp. ubi supr . §. 13. g l. 4. c. th. lib. 14. tit. 10. h l. 1 c. th. lib. 14. tit. 6. * epist . ad amic . p. 4. euchar. p. 1. c. 1. p. 7. p. 11. c. 1. p. 249. * euchar. ib. p. 11. & not . salm. in vit . probi . * conjectur . de region . suburb . c. 5. p. 27. 30 , 31. & com . ad c. th. lib. 14. tit. 6. l. 1. * epist . cit . p. 23 , 24. eucharist . 1. c. 5. p. 170. 186 , &c. * io lechasser . observat . de eccles . suburb . p. 4 , 5. * censur . conject . l. 1. c. 4. p. 23. advent . p. 1. c. 3. p. 31. * refut conject . p. 1 c. 3. p. 26. * lib. 11. c. th. tit. 16. l. 9. p. 120. * censur . ubi supr . c. 6. p. 38. vid. advent . ib. p. 36. * aleand . ubi supr . c. 2. p. 23. * vid. zosim . hist . l. 2. p. 688. * exercit. eccles . l. 1. c. 30. p. 243. * cens . c. 1. p. 9. adv. c. 1. p. 7. * cens . p. 12. propemp . l. 1. c. 7. p. 87. * lib. 9. tit. 1. l. 13. * conc. chalc can . 17. * conc. c. p. in trull . c. 38. * l. 62. c. th ▪ lib. 16. tit. 5. * prosp . de promiss . div . p. iii. prom . 38. p. 60. * herodian . hist . l. 2. p. 97. * ext. ap . baron . ad ann. 371. vid. item rescr . ad maxim . v. v. ibid. * h. eccl. l. 1. c. 6. * distinct . xv . c. 3. sancta romana . p. m. 34. * adv. hincm . laud. cap. 21. p. 100. * vid. conc. nic. ii. act. 1 con. t. vii . col. 80. 85. vid. cyril . epist . ad pp . afric . conc. t. 2. col . 1143. * censur . p. ii . c. 4. p. 68. * de eccl. occid . & or. consens . l. 1. c. 12. s. 4. p. 191. * h. e. l. 7. c. 30. p. 282. * ap. athan. apol. ii. p. 588. vid. ad solitar . p. 640. * ap. ath. ib. p. 643. * ap. theod. h. eccl. l. 2. c. 15. p. 91. * sac. hist . l. 2. p. 169. * pithan . p. 1. c. 3. p. 26. * ext. conc. t. 1. col . 1429. * de primat . c. vlt. p. 390. * vid. cod. can. eccl. afric . can. 53. 56. 71. 93. 98. 99. 117. 118. 119 123. & in collat . carthag . passim . * epist . lxxxvii . c. 2. p. 158. * a d. bevereg . inter annot. ad can. xxxvi . conc. vi. in trull . p. 135. * exerc. eccl. l. 1. exercit . xxx . p. 250. * — adoratum populo caput , & crep●t ingens sejamis : deinde ex facie toto or be secunda , &c. juvenal . satyr . x. vers . 62. orbe &c. ] quia praefectus vrbi fuit venerabilis , secundus à caesare tiberio . vet. scholiast . ibid. — erubuit tanto spoliare ministro imperium fortuna tuum : stat proxima cervix ponderis immensi — p. stat. sylv. l. 1. c. 4. vers . 5. de rub. gallico . p. v. vid. gothofred . conjectur . dissert . i. c. 1. ii. c. 5. & j. dartis . de reg. suburb . part. i. c. 16. p. 147. a l 3. c. lib. 1. tit. 28. symmach . l. 10. epist . 36. p. 503. b id. ib. epist . 30. p 459. c ap. eus . de vis. c. l. 3. c. 7. p. 487. can. 28. * a. marcell . hist . l 15. p. m. 1454. * l. 7. c. xi . p. 347. * concil . c. p. can. 11. * l. 5. c. 8. p. 275. * life of greg. nazianz . sect. v. num. 8. * epist . xviii . non longe abinit ▪ * lib. 16. c. th. tit. 2 l. 23. * distinct . xcix . p. 302. * haeres . 30. p. 60. * dial. 1. tom. iv . p. 22. a seder olam , r. abraham , r. dav. ganz . in zemach , david . benjamin in itin . &c. b epiph. haeres . xxx . ubi supra . cyril . catech. xii . p. 261. hieron . comm. in esa . c. 3. p. 18. & alibi . chrysost . adv . jud. l. 4. p. 448. & de hisce intelligendus est locus in epistola hadriani ap . vopisc . in saturnino p. 960. c lib. 16. tit. viii . de judaeis . l. 1. 2. 8. 11. 13 , 14 , 15. 17. 22. 29. d vid. c. th. ubi supr . l. 29. & theod. loc . supr . citat . * can. ix . & xvii . * con. sard. can. vi . * conc. chal. act. ii . col . 338. tom. 4. * ib. act. iii. col . 395. * ext. ibid. col . 57. * hieron . epist . ad marcellam . p. 28 t. 2. habent primos de pepusa phrygiae patriarchas . secundos , quos , &c. * vid. apollon . ap . euseb . l. 5. c. 18. p. 184. &c. 16. p. 180. * can. xxxv . * ca. 116. fol. 76. ubi vid. comment . panciroll . * gel. cyz . h. conc. nic. l. 2. c. 32. p. 268. * conc. chalc. act. i. p. 100 t. iv . * ap. l. allat . de cons . eccl. or. & occid . l. 1. c. 9. n. 2. p. 167. a chap. 2. num. 7. * vid. alexand . epist . encycl . ap . socr. l. 1. c. 6. p. 11. * apol. ii. p. 611. vid. p. 560. * ap. theod. l. 5. c. 9. p. 211. * not. imp. orient . c. 104 fol. 71. * act. vii . col . 787. &c. tom. iii. * vbi supr . p. 147. * hier. ad pammach . tom. 2. p. 178 * ap. l. allat . l. 1. c. 9. n. 1. col . 165. * ap. guil. tyr. l. 23 mirae . notit . episc . &c. * de aedific . justin . lib. 4 c. 9. p. 87. vid. chron. alex. ad an. const . xxv . p. 666. a chrysost . homil. iv . de verb. esai . t. 2. p. 865. b orat. xxvii . p. 472. * can. iii. * c. th. lib. 16. tit. 1. l. 3. * conc. chalc. act. 1. col . 116. * act. xi . col . 669. * morin . l. 1. exercit. xiv . p. 102. impp. theodosius & honorius aa . philippo pf . p. illyrici . omni innovatione c●ssante , vetustatem & canones . pristinos ecclesiasticos , qui nunc usque tenuerunt , per omnes illyrici provincias , servari praecipimus : tum , si quid dubietatis emerserit , id oporteat , non absque scientia viri reverendissimi sacrosanctae legis antistitis vrbis constantinopolitanae ( quae romae veteris praerogativa laetatur ) conventui sacerdotali sanctoque judicio reservari . dat. prid. jul. eustathio & agricola coss. [ 421 ] * vid. notit ; imp. c. 122. fol. 78. * ib. c. 126. fol. 79. * ib. c. 132. fol. 82. * act. xvi . col . 798 , &c. tit. iv . * lib. 6. indict . xv . epist . 31. col . 614. * ext. ib. col . 833. vid. ib. col . 838. a. * can. xxxvi ▪ * inter annot . d. bevereg . ubi supr . * jur. gr. rom. l. 2. p. 88. * ext. ap . l. allat . loc . cit . c. 24. col . 411 , &c. * ext. ad calc . codin . cle offic . cp . p. 117. * ib. l. 3. p. 244. * ad colc . lib. 23. histor . suae p. 1015. * can. vii . * act. vii . col . 614. &c. * guilielm . tyr. loc . citat . * nil . doxopatr . ap . l. allat . ubi supr . c. 9. n. 5. col . 196. * ext. conc . t. v. col . 188. * ext. ibid. col . 276. &c. * ap. guil. tyr. ibid & miraeum notit . episc . p. 48. * vbi supra . * sirmond . censur . de eccl. suburb . c. 4. p. 69. advent . p. ii c. 1. p. 63. * ph. berter . pithan . diatrib . ii. c. 3. p. 170. 171. * goth. lib. 2. c. 7. p. 406. * deconcord . l. 6. c. 4. n. 7. 8 p. 188. vid. n. 6. * ext. conc. t. v. col . 805. * epist . v. ib. col . 794. * plat. in vit . steph. ix . p. 172. * p. dam. act. mediol . à seipso conscript . ext . ap . baron . t. xi . p. 265. & jo. monach. de vlt. p. dam. c. 16. * epist . supr . laud col . 815. * loc. supra citat . * ext. ap . baror . an. 590. n. xxxviii . tom. 8. * ext. ib. n. xliii . * tom. 7. p. 568. * hieron . rub. hist . ravennat . l. 4. ad ann. dcxlix . p. 203. 205. 206. vid. bar. ad ann. 669. n. ii . iii. t. 8. * baron . cod . an n. ii . iii. iv . rub. ibid. p. 213. 214. * can. v. conc. t. 4. col . 1012. * can. vii . ib. col . 1781. * de concord . l. 6. c. 3. per tot . c. 4. n. 3. 4. * ext. ap . bar. ad ann. 865. t. 10. n. xxxv . &c. * annal. incert . auct . ad ann. 863. inter script . coetan . a pith. edit . p. 62. * ext. loc . cit . * epist syv. afric . ad bonifac. concil . t. ii . col . 1670. item ad coelest . ib. col . 1674. concil . carth . vi . col . 1589. cod. can. eccles . afric . in init . * ext. ubi supr . col . 1143. * conc. mil. ii . can. xxii . t. 2. col . 1542. * m. a. capell . de apellat . eccl. afric . c. 4. p. 118. * gild. de excid . brit. non longe ab init . * antiq. apost . life of s. paul. §. x. n. 7. introd . to the apostolici . n. 8. 9. * bed. l. 2. c. 2. p. 111. vid. galfr. monomuth . l. 11. c. 12. girald . cambr. itin . cambr. l. 2. c. 1. p. 856. & not . d. powell . ibid. * de script . cent. i. n. 70. p. 64. * annal. par. post . sub joann . r. fol. 454. * de primord . eccl. brit. c. 5. p. 91. * bed. ubi supr . p. 110. * spelm. conc. brit. an. 601. t. 1. p. 108. * notit . imper . c. 48. fol. 149. * vid zosim . hist . l. 2. p. 688. * epist ad afric . in init . * ep. ad orient . ap . athan . apol. ii . p. 580. * ad. ann. 1057. tom. xi . p. 243. a concil . t. iv . col . 1260. b ibid. col . 1312. c ep. iv . c. 7. p. 101. * ext. ep. ap . hilar. in fragm . col . 407. * conc. t. 4. col . 53. * de concord l. 1. c. 7. §. 6. p. 26. * ap. sozom. l. 3. c. 8. p. 508. ap . alban . apol. ii. p. 579. * theod. h. e l. 5. c. 10. p. 212. * dam. epist . v. conc. t. 2. col . 876. * epist . 1. c. 15. ib. col . 1022. * vid. innoc. epist . 21. 24. 25. conc. t. 2. * ad an. 418. tom. 5. * epist . 87. c. 1. p. 157. * epost . 84. c. 11. p. 155. * serm. 1. in natal . app. c. 1. p. 79. * conc. chalc. act. i. conc. t. 4. col 93. * act. v. col . 555. &c. * ibid. act. xvi . col . 810. * epist . 53. c. 2. p. 130. * epist . 54. 55. 61. 62. 105. * evagr. h. e. l. 3. c. 11. 12. &c. p. 343 & seq . vid. gest . de nom . acacii . conc. t. 4. col . 1081 gelas. epist . 13. ad epp. dard. ib. 1199. & tom. de anath . vincul . ib. col . 1227. * evagr. ib. c. 16. p. 347. * ext. epist . ib. c. 17. * basil . cil. h. eccl. ap . niceph. l. 16. c. 17. p. 683. * ext. in calc . gest . de nom . acac. ubi supr . col . 1083. faelic . epist . vi . ib. col . 1073. * tom. de anath . ubi supr . * ad epp. dard. ib. col . 1207. * epist . viii . ib. col . 1182. * inter epist . hormisd . conc. t. 4. col . 1469. * chron. indict . 3. philox . & prob. coss . p. 61. * niceph. h. e. l. 17. c. 9. p. 746. * in vit . joan . 1 ▪ conc. t. 4. col . 1601. * epist . 2. ibid. col . 1745. * h. eccl. l. 6. c. 7. p. 450. * haeret. fab . l. 4. c. 12. t. 4. p. 245. * pelag. epist . viii . conc. t. 5. col . 949. * lib. 4. indict . 13. epist . 36. col . 549. vid. etiam epist . 38. ibid. * lib. ● ▪ pist . 39 ▪ 555. * ib. epist . 32. * epist . 33. * epist . 39. * lib 6. ind. 15. epist . 37. * lib. 4. epist . 36. * epist . 38. * epist . 32 , 36 , 38. lib. 7. epist . 30. * conc. chalc. act. iii. col . 419. conc. t. 4. * ib. act. vi . col . 579. * act. xvi . col . 818. * act. iv . col . 472. &c. * ext. ib. col . 834. * not. in loc . col . 997. * ad an. 518. t. 7. p. 5. ‖ not. in conc. sub menna . conc. t. v. col . 274. * de consens . eccl. or. & occ. l. 1. c. 19. n. 7. col . 289. * lib. 6. epist . 4. ( vid. l. xi . epist . 47. al. 45. * ib. ep. 24. * epist . 28. * ib. ep. 30. * lib. 7. epist . 70. * lib. 7. epist . 64. * de rep. eccl. l. 4. c. 4 , n. 28. p. 582. * cedren ▪ compend . hist . p. 404. * cedren . ib. p. 407. vid. anastas . sinait . quaest . xvi . p. 182. * vid. niceph . l. 18. c. 41 , 55. * l. xi . epist . xxxvi . indict . vi . col . 793. * ib. ep. xliii . col . 796. * ib. ep. xliv . * sabell . ennead . viii . l. 6. col . 528. plat. in vit . bonif. iii. p. 85. naucher . vol. ii . gener. xxi . p. 754. adon . martyrol . prid . id. novembr . * ext. inter epist . greg. vii . ad calc . ep. lv . conc. t. 10. col . 110. & ap . baron . ad ann . 1076. p. 479. ‖ epist . part. vi . epist . 13. ( ad ant. faur . ) the ivstification of the independant chvrches of christ being an answer to mr. edvvards his booke, which hee hath written against the government of christ's chvrch and toleration of christs, publike worship : briefely declaring that the congregations of the saints ought not to have dependancie in government upon any other : or direction in worship from any other than christ their head and lavv-giver / by katherine chidley. chidley, katherine. this text is an enriched version of the tcp digital transcription a32820 of text r5068 in the english short title catalog (wing c3832). textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. the text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with morphadorner. the annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. this text has not been fully proofread approx. 234 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 46 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. earlyprint project evanston,il, notre dame, in, st. louis, mo 2017 a32820 wing c3832 estc r5068 12793306 ocm 12793306 93961 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a32820) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 93961) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 256:e174, no 7) the ivstification of the independant chvrches of christ being an answer to mr. edvvards his booke, which hee hath written against the government of christ's chvrch and toleration of christs, publike worship : briefely declaring that the congregations of the saints ought not to have dependancie in government upon any other : or direction in worship from any other than christ their head and lavv-giver / by katherine chidley. chidley, katherine. [8], 81 (i.e. 82) p. printed for william larnar ..., london : 1641. an answer to thomas edwards' reasons against the independent government of particular congregations. reproduction of original in thomason collection, british library. eng edwards, thomas, 1599-1647. -reasons against the independent government of particular congregations. church polity -early works to 1800. a32820 r5068 (wing c3832). civilwar no the justification of the independant churches of christ. being an answer to mr. edvvards his booke, which hee hath written against the gover chidley, katherine 1641 45608 286 0 0 0 0 0 63 d the rate of 63 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the d category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2004-06 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-06 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-07 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2004-07 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion the ivstification of the independant chvrches of christ . being an answer to mr. edvvards his booke , which hee hath written against the government of christs chvrch , and toleration of christs publike worship ; briefely declaring that the congregations of the saints ought not to have dependancie in government upon any other ; or direction in worship from any other than christ their head and lavv-giver . by katherine chidley . 1 sam. 17. 45. thou commest unto me with a sword , and with a speare , and with a sheild , but i come unto thee in the name of the lord of hoasts the god of the armies of israel , whom thou hast defied . ivdges 4. 21. then iael , hebers wife tooke a naile of the tent , and tooke an hammer in her hand , and went softly unto him , and smote the naile into his temples and fastened it into the ground , ( for he was fast asleepe and weary ) and so he died . london , printed for william larnar , and are to be sold at his shop , at the signe of the golden anchor , neere pauls-chaine . 1641. to the christian reader ; grace , mercy , and peace , from god the father , and from our lord jesus christ . it is , and hath beene ( for a long time ) a question more enquired into than well weighed ; whether it be lawfull for such , who are informed of the evills of the church of england , to separate from it : for my owne part , considering that the church of england is governed by the canon lawes ( the discipline of antichrist ) and altogether wanteth the discipline of christ , and that the most of them are ignorant what it is , and also doe professe to worship god by a stinted service-booke . i hold it not onely lawfull , but also the duty of all those who are informed of such evills , to separate themselves from them , and such as doe adhere unto them ; and also to joyne together in the outward profession and practise of gods true worship , when god hath declared unto them what it is ; and being thus informed in their minds of the knowledge of the will of god ( by the teaching of his sonne jesus christ ) it is their duty to put it in practise , not onely in a land where they have toleration , but also where they are forbidden to preach , or teach in the name ( or by the power ) of the lord jesus . but mr. edwards ( with whom i have here to deale ) conceiving that the beauty of christs true worship , would quickly discover the foggy darkenesse of the antichristian devised worship ; and also that the glory of christs true discipline , grounded and founded in his word , would soone discover the blacknesse and darkenesse of the antihristian government ( which the poore people of england are in bondage unto ) hath set his wits a work to withstand the bright comming of christs kingdome ( into the hearts of men ) which we are all commanded in the most absolute rule of prayer to petition for ; for the turning aside whereof mr. edwards hath mustred up his forces , even eight reasons , against the government of christ , which hee calls independant ; and hath joyned unto these eight , ten more ; which he hath made against toleration ▪ affirming that they may not practise contrary to the course of the nation wherein they live , without the leave of the magistrate , neither judgeth he it commendable in them to aske the magistrates leave , nor commendable in the magistrate to heare their petitions , but rather seeketh to stirre up all men to disturbe their peace , affirming most unjustly , that they disturbe the peace of the kingdome , nay , the peace of three kingdomes , which all the lands under the kings dominions know to be contrary , nay i thinke most of the kingdomes in europe cannot be ignorant what the cause of the disturbance was ; but this is not the practise of mr. edwards alone , but also of the whole generation of the clergie ; as thou maist know , christian reader , it was the practise of the bishop of canterbury to exclaime against mr ▪ burton , doctor bastwicke , and mr. prynne , calling them scandalous libellers , & innovators ( though they put their own name to that which they write , and proved what they taught by divine authority ) and this hath beene alwayes the practise of the instruments of sathan , to accuse the lords people , for disturbing of the peace , as it hath beene found in many nations , when indeede the troublers be themselves and their fathers house . but in this they are like unto athalia crying treason , treason , when they are in the treason themselves . but for the further strengthning of his army , he hath also subjoyned unto these his answer to sixe reasons , which he saith , are theirs , but the forme of some of them seemeth to be of his owne making ; all which thou shalt finde answered , and disproved in this following treatise . but though these my answers are not laid downe in a schollerlik way , but by the plaine truth of holy scripture ; yet i beseech thee have the patience to take the paynes to reade them , and spare some time to consider them ; and if thou findest things disorderly placed , la●our to rectifie them to thine own mind . and if there be any weight in them , give the glory to god ; but if thou feest nothing worthy , attribute not the weakenesse thereof to the truth of the cause , but rather to the ignorance and unskilfulnesse of the weake instrument . thine in the lord jesus , katherine chidley ▪ the answer to mr. edvvards his introdvction . _● hearing the complaints of many that were godly , against the booke that mr. edwards hath written ; and upon the sight of this his introduction , considering his desperate resolution , ( namely ) that he would set out severall tractates against the whole way of separation . i could not but declare by the testimony of the scripture it selfe , that the way of separation is the way of god , who is the author of it , * which manifestly appeares by his separating of his church from the world , and the world from his church in all ages . when the church was greater than the world , then the world was to be separated from the church ; but when the world was greater than the church , then the church was to separate from the world . as for instance ; when caine was a member of the church , then the church was greater than the world ; and caine being discovered , was exempted from gods presence ; * before whom he formerly had presented himselfe : c but in the time of noah , when the world was greater than the church d then noah and his family who were the church , were commanded to goe into the arke e in which place they were saved , when the world was drowned . f yet ham being afterward discovered , was accursed of his father , and shem was blessed , and good prophesied for iaphat . afterward when the world was grown mightier than the church againe , then abraham was called out of vr of the caldeans ▪ both from his country and from his kindred , and from his fathers house g ( because they were idolat●rs ) to ●●●ship god in canaan . moreover , afterwards moses was se●● , and his brother aaron , to deliver the children of israel out of the land of egypt when pharaoh vexed them , h at which time god wrought their deliverance , i separating wondrously between the egyptians and the israelites , and that which was light to the one , was darkenesse to the other . afterwards , when cerah and his congregation rebelled against god , and were obstinate therein k the people were commanded to depart from the tents of those with 〈…〉 l were the children separated from the parents , and those who did not separate ▪ were destroyed by fire , m and swallowed by the earth , n upon the day which god had appointed * as 〈…〉 noahs time , who repented not ▪ were swallowed by wate● moreover , when god brought his people into the promised land , he commanded them to be separated from the idolaters , and not to meddle with the accursed things . and for this cause god gave them his ordinances and commandements ; and by the manifestation of their obediance to them , they were known to be the onely people of god , * which made a reall separation . and when they were carried captive into babylon a● any time for their sinnes : god raised them up deliverers to bring them from thence : and prophets to call them from thence p and from their backesliding . q and it was the practise of all the prophets of god , ( which prophesied of the church under the new testament ) to separate the precious from the vile , and god hath declared that hee that so doth shall be as his mouth , jer. 15. 19. and we know it was the practise of the apostles of the lord iesus , to declare to the people that there could be no more agreement betweene beleevers and unbeleevers , than betweene light and darkenesse , god and belial , as paul writing to the corinthians doth declare , when he saith , be not unequally yoked together with unbeleevers ; for what fellowship hath righteousnesse with unrighteousnesse ? and what communion hath light with darkenesse , and what concord hath christ , with belial ? or what part hath he that beleeveth with an infidell ? and what agreement hath the temple of god with idolls ? for yee are the temple of the living god , as god hath said , i will dwell in them , and walke in them , and i will be their god , and they shall be my people ; wherefore come out from among them , and by yee separate , saith the lord , and touch not the uncleane thing , and i will receive you , and i will be a father unto you , and yee shall be my sonnes and daughters , saith the lord almighty , 1 cor. 6. 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , 18. moreover , they are pronounced blessed , which reade , heare , and keepe the words of the booke of the revelation of iesus christ ; r among which sentences , there is a commandement from heaven for a totall separation . s these things ( in briefe ) i have minded from the scriptures , to prove the necessitie of separation ; and though the scripture be a deepe well ▪ and containeth in the treasures thereof innumerable doctrines and precepts tending to this purpose ; yet i leave the further prosecution of the same , till a fitter opertunity be offered to me , or any other whom the lord shall indue with a greater measure of his spirit . but mr. edwards , for preparation to this his desperate intention , hath sent these reasons against independant government , and toleration , and presented them to the honorable house of commons ; which reasons ( i thinke ) he would have to be get a snake , to appeare ( as he saith ) under the greene grasse ; for i am sure , he cannot , ●ake the humble petitions of of the kings subjects to be a snake , for petitioning is a way of peace and submission , without violence or venum ; neither can it cast durt upon any government of the nation , as he unjustly accuseth the protestation protested , for that author leaveth it to the magistrate , not undertaking to determine of himselfe what government shall be set ever the nation , for the bringing of men to god but leaveth it to the consideration of them that have authority , and whereas mr. edwards grudges that they preach so often at the parliament ; in this he is like unto amaziah , who bid the prophet amos to flee away into the land of ju●●a , and not to prophesie at bethel , the kings chappell , and the house of the kingdome . * and though mr. edwards boast himselfe heare , to be a minister of the gospell , and a sufferer for it , yet i challenge him , to prove unto me , that he hath any calling or ordination to the ministry , but that which he hath successively from rome ; if he lay claime to that ; he is one of the popes household ; but if he deny that calling ▪ then is he as void of a calling to the worke of the ministry , and as void of ordination , as any of those ministers , whom hee calleth independant men , ( which have cast off the ordination of the prelates ) and consequently as void of ordination as a macanicall trades man . and therefore i hope that honourable house that is so full of wisedome ( which mr ▪ edwards doth confesse ) will never judge these men unreasonable , because they do petition , nor their petitions unreasonable before they are tried , and so proved , by some better ground , then the bare entrance of mr. edwards his cavit , or writ of ne admittas , though he saith he fo●ched it from heaven ; for i know it was never there , neither is it confirmed by the records of holy scripture , but taken from the practise of nimrod , that mighty hunter before the lord , * and from the practise of haman that wicked persecucuter , * & from the evill behaviour and malicious speeches , and gesture of wicked sanballet , * and tobias , who were both bitter enemies to god , and sought to hinder the building of the walles of jerusalem . but the prophet haggai , reproveth not onely such as hindred the building of the lords house ▪ but also those that were contented to live in their seyled houses , and suffer the lords house to lie waste , hag. 1 an ansvver to mr. edvvards his booke , intituled , reasons against the independent government in particular congregations . mr. edwards , i understanding that you are a mighty champion , and now mustering up your mighty forces ( as you say ) and i apprehending they must come against the hoast of israel , and hearing the armies of the living god so defied by you , could not be withheld , but that i ( in stead of a better ) must needs give you the meeting . first . whereas you affirme , that the church of god ( which is his house and kingdome ) could not subsist with such provision as their father gave them : which provision was ( by your owne confession ) the watering of them by evangelists , and prophets , when they were planted by the apostles , and after planting and watering to have pastors and teachers , with all other officers ▪ set over them by the apostles & their own election , yet notwithstanding all this provision , the father hath made for them , it was evident ( say you ) they could not well stand of themselves , without some other helpe . this was the very suggestion of sathan into the hearts of our first parents ; for they having a desire of some thing more then was warranted by god , tooke unto them the forbidden fruit , as you would have the lords churches to doe when you say they must take some others besides these churches and officers , and that to interpose authoritatively ; and these something else you make to be apostles , evangelists , and elders of other churches , whereas you confessed before , that these are the furniture of christs kingdome ; and wee know their authoritie was limitted , within the bounds of the word of god : as first , if any of them would be greater , he must be servant to all . secondly , they were forbidden to be lords over gods heritage . thirdly , they were commanded to teach the people , to observe onely those things which christ had commanded them . and whereas you seeme to affirme , that these offices were extraordinary and ceased , and yet the churches have still neede of them : you seeme to contradict your selfe , and would faine cure it againe , in that some other way which you say , you have to supply the want of them , but this other way you have not yet made known : you presuppose , it may be by some sinods and councels , to make a conjunction of the whole . if you meane such a counsell ▪ as is mentioned ▪ acts 15. 4. 22 , consisting of apostles and elders with the whole church : then you have said no more than you have said before , and that which we grant , for this is still the furniture of the kingdome ; but if you intend that your counsell should consist of an armie of arch-bishops diocesan bishops , deanes , suffragans , with the rest of that rabble , which be for their titles names of blasphemy , and such as were bred in the smoake of the pit . i deny that any of these be ordained of god , for they have no footing in his word ; therefore indeede these are a part of the fruit of the forbidden tree , which the churches of god have taken and eaten ; and this seeking out inventions of their owne , after that god made them righteous , hath brought them into a state of apostasie , even as ieroboams high places and calves did the people of israel ; which may plainely appeare by the churches of asia . if these be that some other supply which you meane and have produced to helpe the churches , and cities of god ( as you call them ) to determine for those churches and cities the cases of doctrine and discipline in stead of those many ministers which , you conceive them now to want , it tends to make ( as they have now done ) a conjunction not onely of all the churches professing one faith into one body ; but also of all the armies of the man of sinne , and so to confound the church and the world together , which the ministers of the gospell ought to divide , by separating the precious from the vile ▪ and whereas you affirme , the independent congregations now have but few ministers ; it is very true , for indeede they are but a few people , and a few hands will feede a few mouths sufficiently , if god provide meat . but whereas you affirme , that those congregations may have no officer , at all by their owne grounds , and yet be independent . i thinke , they conceive by those grounds , the office onely of pastor , and teacher ; but not that the church of god hath need at any time of the helpe of any other , then god hath given and set in his church , which be all the officers that are before mentioned , as apostles , prophets , evangelists , pastors , and teachers ; and to have recourse to any for counsell , helpe , or assistance , either of church or ministry , which is not of christs owne , were very ridiculous . for it is recorded , ephe. 4. 11. 12. that he gave these for the gathering together of the saints for the worke of the ministry , and for the edification of the body of christ , being so gathered ; the time they must continue is , till all the saints be in the unitie of faith . the reason wherefore they were given , was to keepe people from being tossed too and fro with every winde of doctrine . and these are they , by whom all the body is coupled and knit together , by every joynt for the furniture thereof , according to the effectuall power , which is in the measure of every part , and receiveth increase of the body unto the edifying of it selfe in love . and this is according to the promise that christ made , matth. 28. 19. 20. to be with his ministers in teaching his people to the end of the world . and thus you may see mr. edwards , you cannot gather from our owne words , that we have neede of the helpe of any other churches ▪ or ministers , to interpose ( as you unjustly affirme ) as it may plainely appeare by mr. robinsons owne words in the justification of the separation , pag. 121. 122. these are his words ; it is the stewards duty to make provision for the family ; but what if he neglect this duty in the masters absence ? must the whole family starve , yea and the wife also ? or is not some other of the family best able to be employed for the present necessity ? the like he saith concerning the government of a ship , of an armie ▪ and of common wealths ; alluding to the church of christ . and further expresseth , that as a private citizen may become a magistrate , so a private member may become a minister , for an action of necessity to be performed , by the consent of the rest , &c. therefore it appeares plainely by all that hath binsaid , that the churches of christ may be truely constituted according to the scripture , and subsist a certaine time without pastor and teacher , and enjoy the power of christ amongst themselves having no dependancie upon any other church or churches which shall claime authority or superiority over them . and thus much for your first reason . now in your second reason , which runneth upon the calling of the ministry , you affirme , that the government of the independent congregations is not of divine institution . which i utterly denie , and will prove it , by disproveing the following instances by which you affirme to prove it . whereas you affirme , that their independencie forces them to have ministers without ordination . i answer , it is a plaine case by the foregoing answer , to your first reason , that you speake untruely , for their practise is there made knowne to be otherwise ; and if you will still affirme , that they have not power so to practise , you will thereby deny the truth of the scriptures ; for the apostles were commanded to teach the churches , to observe all things whatsoever christ had commanded them . but christ commanded the apostles to ordaine elders in every church by election ; therefore the apostles taught the churches to ordaine elders by election also . and whereas you bid us produce one instance ( if we can ) for an ordinary officer to be made without ordination , it is needlesse ; for we ( whom you call independant ) strive for no such thing , as you have proved it plainely out of mr. robinsons booke , apol. chap. 1. 18. to which i send you to learne better . further , you alleadge , that if they be ordained , it is by persons who are not in office . now if you meane , they have no office because they are not elected , ordained and set apart by the clergie to some serviceable , admini●●ation ; i pray you tell me who ordained the apostles , prophets , and evangelists to their worke or ministry ? if you will say they were ordained of god , i will grant it , and doe also affirme that god hath promised the supply of them , to the end of the world , as before hath beene mentioned , from ephe. 4. as also , it appeares by pauls charge to timothy ; 2 tim. 2. 2. that what things he had heard of him , among many witnesses , the same he should commit to faithfull men who should be able to teach others also : but i verily doe beleeve , that as titus , so timothy heard of paul that elders must be ordained by election in every city , and that titus was as much bound to communicate the things unto others , which he had learned of paul , as timothy was , and timothy ( we know ) was to teach faithfull men , and those faithfull men were to teach others those things that they had heard of timothy , among which things ordination was one , as it was delivered to titus ; and we are not to doubt of timothius faithfulnesse in the declaring of this part of his message more than the rest , but if those to whom timothy delivered it , were not faithfull in the discharge of their duty : but that in due time the ordinances might possibly grow out of use , as the churches ▪ did by little and little apostate ; yet that hinders not but that it was still written in the scripture ▪ that the generations to come might recover againe the right use of the ordinances when god should by his spirit direct them to know the same . moreover ▪ i affirme , that all the lords people , that are made kings and priests to god , have a free voyce in the ordinance of election , therefore they must freely consent before there can be any ordination ; and having so consented they may proceede to ordination , notwithstanding they be destitute , of the counsell or assistance of any neighbour church ; as if there were no other churches in the land , but onely one company of beleevers joyned together in fellowship , according to christs institution . the promise made in the 14th . of iohn 12. 13. is made unto them , where christ said . the workes that he did they should doe ●s● ; & that whatsoever they should aske in his name , that he would do for the● , that the father may be glorified , and that the spirit of truth should ●●ide with them for ever . and that he should teach them all things , and bring all things unto their remembrance , as it is said in the following verses of the same chapter . this ( you may see ) is the portion of beleevers , and they that have this portion are the greatest in the world , and many of them are greater than one , but many joyned together in a comely order in the fellowship of the gospell , according to the scriptures , are the greatest of all and therefore have power to ordaine , and to blesse their ministers in the name of the lord . thus the lesser is blessed of the greater . now mr. edwards , i hope you will confesse , that you spake unadvisedly , when you affirmed , the maintenance of independensie , was the breaking of gods ordinance , and violating of that order and constant ●●y of ministers recorded in the word . to this i answer , that if the church doe elect one , he must be elected out of some more , & those that are not elected , may be as able to blesse the church in the name of the lord , as he ; therefore one of these who are not elected , being chosen by the whole church , to blesse him in the name of the lord , whom the church hath ordained , is the hand of the whole ( who are greatest of all , and so a sufficient officer for that worke which hee is put a part to doe . thus you may see ( mr. edwards ) that we doe not hold ordination extraordinary and temporary ; neither doe we hold it the least of gods institutions , for we have respect unto them all ; but that nothing in matter of order hath so cleare and constant a practise as this ( as you do affirme ) and also say , the whole frame of church and discipline , hath not so much ground in the word for it as this . i deny , and doe affirme , that not onely this , but all gods ordinances have as much ground and footing in gods word also . yet notwithstanding you say , that calvin confesseth , that there is no expresse precept concerning the imposition of hands : hath the imposition of hands no footing in gods word ? and yet hath not all the forme of gods worship so much footing as it ? here mr. calvin and you , will now pin all the forme of church and discipline , upon unwritten verities . further , you rehearse confusedly , the opinion of zanchius to strenghen yours who ( say you ) would have the example of the apostles and ancient church , to be more esteemed of , and to be instead of a command . i pray you , how doe you know it to be their example , if it be not written ? and whereas you alledge , that zanchius saith , it is no vaine ceremony but the holy spirit is present to performe things inwardly ▪ which are signified by this ordinance outwardly . i have granted you that already , where i affirme , that the church having the spirit of god hath power by an instrument of her owne chusing , to blesse the party to his worke in the name of the lord ; and i am also bound to beleeve , that god will accompany that his owne ordinance ( which is performed by them outwardly ) with his owne spirit inwardly , to furnish the party ( so blessed by them ) with the knowledge of the scripture , which is able to furnish the man of god to every part of his duty . and thus you may see , that we have not departed from christs way , nor gone any other way , in things concerning his house and officers , then he hath directed . and whereas you demand for what cause paul left titus at cr●●te ? i answer , that i have told you before , that it was to communicate the things unto others , which hee had learned , whereof ordination was one . and no doubt but hee declared the same to faithfull men , that they might teach others also , therefore he was there employed in preaching of the gospell , as well as if he had gone preaching with paul . the next thing you goe upon , is the triall of the gifts of ministers , and this you attribute to them which have the greatest measure of the spirit , for you say , examination belongeth to the most skilfull , and they who have most authority . all these things are well allowed of by us , for who hath a greater measure of the spirit than beleevers ? and who hath more skill than he that hath beene trained up in the schoole of christ ? and hath learned this lesson to be obedient to his master christ in keeping of all his commandements ? and who hath greater authority upon the earth then they that are visible saints ? and what makes men visible saints ? if not the manifestation of their obedience to god the father , and christ his sonne , in the practise of all his ordinances , and not to have some other presbyters present with them , to assist them , ( as you affirme ) for by these other presbyters , i know not yet who you meane . and whereas you say , that the church may be led into errours , or kept in a low estate by unfit pastors and elders . i answer , it is a cleare truth ; as wofull experience teacheth us , who live here in the land of england . and whereas you affirme , that visible saints cannot ordaine officers , because they have no gifts of prayer . i answer , here you make prayer the ordination of ministers . and whereas you say they are not able to conceive prayer . here you give the holy ghost the lie : for beleevers have received the spirit of adoption to cry abba father , but say you , they cannot conceive prayer according to the action in bo●● . here you would seeme to make beleevers , which have the spirit of god , to leade them into all truths , more voide of common reason , then men that have but gifts of nature . againe , you say , they have not gifts to make publike exhortation , and admonition . to which i answer , if they had first knowledge to feele the want of a pastor , and also divers able men out of whom to elect and ordaine a pastor , then they out of whom this person is chosen , are able to exhort , and to admonish : for he that hath not the gift of teaching , may have the gift of exhortation : againe , the man that undertaketh to teach others , ought to be taught by god , and likewise to be able by sound doctrine to withstand the gainesayers , but a man may give good exhortations , ( and that publikely ) that is not able to withstand the gainesayers by ●ound doctrine . by this you may see , the church of god can never be without some ministers , except it be ( according to that spoken by zacha●iah ) in the day of very small things indeede , when god shall take away their ministers by death , prison , or exile : for seeing the churches were planted by ministers of gods owne ordaining ; therefore they were not without ministers in the very beginning : and still the churches are planted by the ministeriall power of the lord jesus , which cannot be exercised without fit instruments ; yet that they must want the word preached , or sacraments administred , till they have pastors and teacher in office , is yet to be proved , but that page of mr. robinsons , which hath beene alledged before , is sufficient for this present purpose against you , even to prove that the family must not be unprovided for , either for the absence or neglect of a steward . but now you seeme to insinuate an affirmation , or a supposition , i cannot well tell whether , that a ruleing elder may be destitute of the guift of discering , and seeme to imply , that if he be destitute , then all the church must be destitute , if there be no more officers then be . here you would faine make the ruling elders , the eyes of the church , and then all the rest of the body must be blinde , and so unfit to have any hand in election , and also voide of the spirit of grace to discerne the gifts by , though it hath beene proved unto you before , that she is the greatest of all , having the spirit of god to leade her into all truth , being the spouse of christ , and endowed with all his riches , gifts , and donations . and thus you still deny the authority , & ability of the church giving to the persons in office all power and deserning . but this is indeede according to your practise here in england , but not according to the minde and spirit of god . and for the neighbour churches counsell , i deny not , but that it may be imbraced , and the saints have cause to praise god for any helpes of gods ordaining . but if they want the helpe of a neighbour church to counsell them , or neighbour ministers to direct them : yet if they be a church of jesus christ , they have ( as hath beene said before ) power among themselves to elect and ordaine their owne officers ; as also the spirit of discerning ▪ whereby to try their gifts , and yet be farre from falling into that evill , which they complaine against in the episcopacie ( namely ) for one man to have the sole power of ordination . by all these particulars , you may clearely see all your pretended proofes and former assertions disproved , as i promised you , in the entrance of this my answer to your second reason . so that these two first reasons , being ( as i conceive ) the greatest champions , which you have sent out in this skirmage , are now both slaine , and made voide of all the life that ever was in them , for , they were made most of suppositions , and of things that appeared unto you by likelihood , without any ground from the scriptures : and of some other thing than gods word allowed : and of some triviall affirmations which were not grounded upon any truth of gods word . now , these two being thus turned aside , by one of the meanest of all the army of jesus christ , you may justly feare , that all the rest of your souldiers will run away wounded . in your third reason , ▪ you say it is not to be thought , that christ would institute such a government of his church which affords no helpe ; nor allowes no way or remedy for innocent persons that are wronged . which thing i grant to be very true ; but touching the means and helpes which you pleade for , that is , some other synods to appeale unto , i tell you i know not what synods you meane . but this i affirme that there are no larger synods to be kept to settle church differences , then the comming together of the ministers , and brethren , as it is mentioned in the 15th . of the acts , which i have granted you in my answers to your former reasons . and whereas you strive for appeales : i answer , it is the rule of christ , that if one brother doe trespasse against another ; and if the brother offending will not be reclaimed by the private admonition of the brother offended , he is to be admonished by one or two other brethren with him ; but if he will not heare them , the brother offended is to tell the church ; and if he will not heare the church , then he is not to be accounted a brother but as a heathen man and a publican ; if not as a brother , then out of the fellowship : then if the wrong be any personall injury , as oppression , or fraud , or any other sinne of these natures , the law is open , where he may appeale for justice to the magistrate in any part of the kingdome , where-ever he liveth ; but if it be a matter of scandall ; as if hee should be a drunkard , or incontinent , or the like , then he hath sufficient remedy , when such a one is cast out of his society . by this you may see , the way of government given by christ jesus , the king of peace , is the way of peace and righteousnesse . and whereas you affirme , that if the controversie touching circumcision , should have beene ended in the church of antiochia , then parties must have beene iudges . here , you would seeme by this to make the whole church of antioch leavened with the doctrine of justification by circumcision , which to doe is a very great slander , as it appeares by paul & barnabas opposing them there , and that churches sending paul and barnabas to have the churches advise at ierusalem concerning this matter . but whereas you affirme , that the church of antiochia , judged it unequall to decide the case among themselves : i answer , that they judged it unequall , is more than is expressed in that place : but if that should be granted , it will make against you , for their reason in sending the matter to ierusalem , was , because the parties were members of the church of ierusalem , as it appeares by acts. ●5 . 1. 5. 24. the first verse sheweth , that they were men of iudea ; the 5th . verse proves that they were beleevers ▪ the 24th ▪ verse declares , that they went out of the church of ierusalem unto them . and by this you may see plainely , that this chapter ( above all the chapters that i can finde ) proves independencie upon your owne ground ; that the church of antiochia judged it an unequall thing for them to judge the members of the church of ierusalem . and by this you may perceive , how you have either erred , not knowing the scriptures or else you have done worse in labouring to darken the truth by evasions , or false glosses . thus much for your third reason . in your fourth reason you affirme , that the light and law of nature , with right reason , is against the independancie of particular churches ▪ which is an unjust affirmation as hath beene plainely proved before in the answer to your third reason . ▪ but a few words concerning this reason . you say it is found necessary , in bodies naturall , that the particular members doe joyne in one , for the good of the whole , and that the whole being greater than a part , the severall parts should be subject too , and ordered by the whole : all this i have granted you freely ▪ already in the answer to your second reason ; where i have plainely proved unto you , that the hands of the church are ordered by the whole body , in the ordination of the ministery : and this is according to the very scripture it selfe , for the holy ghost speaketh so , in 1 cor. 12. comparing the church of god to the naturall body of a man ; and therefore when the hand lanceth the foote , it cannot be said properly to be the action of the hand alone , because the hand is set a worke , by the body ; neither can the body set the hand a worke , if it be destitute of the power , for the motion of the body commeth not from the hand ▪ but the motion of the hand from the body ; and thus you may see i have granted your comparison . and the nearer politicke bodies doe goe to this rule ; the more orderly they are guided ; for as all the cities and country of england , make up but one kingdome , and all the people in england ought to be subject to one king ; so all the independant congregations in england , and out of england , ( that are guided by the lawes of christ ) make up but one kingdome spiritually to him that is their king . now concerning armies ; though i be very ignorant in these things ▪ yet thus much i conceive , that all the armies , that belong to the kingdome ought to be under the banner of their owne king ; even so all the particular congregations of christ , are to be guided by the lawes of their owne captaine christ , who rideth before them with his garments dipt in blood , and they follow after him riding upon white horses , revel. 19. 11 , 12. 13 , 14. we reade also in the scripture of another armie , which were gathered together against the lord , and against his christ : and this armie ( i conceive ) consisteth of those locusts , which ascended out of the bottomlesse pit , rev. 9. and these , as i told you before , are arch-bishops , diocesan bishops , deanes , prebends , &c. and the rest of that rable ; and these also have a king over them , which is the angell of the bottomlesse pit , who is said to be the great red dragon the devill and sathan , rev. 12. 3. 9. and 20. 2. who gave unto this armie his power and throne , and great authority , rev. 13. 2. therefore , to any counsells that are held , or canon lawes that are enacted by any captaine of this armie , the churches of christ ought not to submit , though they should be commanded , by any statute law of the kingdome ; for those statute lawes are not according to christs rule , but ought by all councells of state to be repealed . and whereas you say , it is alledged by the separation ; that hold independancie , that the magistrate of leyden cannot governe in delph : this i hope you will grant ; for i am sure the magistrates of coventry cannot execute their office in shrewsbury , neither can the one towne chuse magistrates for the other : and this still proves independencie , for either of these may chuse their owne , and guide their owne at all times , except they forfeit their charter . now whereas you say , the people alleadge for themselves , that the law of nature teacheth them to make a covenant ; though there be neither precept nor practise of it in the word . i suppose you misconster their sayings , for the text alleadged in thessalonians 4● doth not prove that brotherly love was never written of in the scripture ; but that it had beene so sufficiently taught of god by written precepts , that it needed not to be written againe . besides , i am able to prove by the scripture , that there is both precept and practise for a church covenant : the which i will answer you in the answer to your 6th . reason , where you begge the question . concerning what is asserted by some divines of scotland , that in such things as are alike common to the church , and commonwealth , and have the same use in both , and that whatsoever natures light directeth the one , directeth the other also . you know ( by what hath beene formerly spoken ) i have fully assented unto it . i also agree with amesius , as farre as he agrees with the truth ; but to agree with you in that falsehood , that the government of independant churches , is against the light of nature and right reason , that i have denied , and disproved sufficiently already . thus having answered every particular thing in this reason , that hath not beene answered already , i proceede to the fifth . in your 5th . reason you affirme , that there be many rules in scripture , that doe require the combination of churches into synods ; for proofe whereof you say , that amesius confesseth , the rules and commands to be such as these ; let all things be done to edification , decently and in order , cor. 14. 26. 40. and follow after the things which make for peace , rom. 14. 19. so phil. 4. 8. and you conclude that synods a●e found to be for edification , peace , and order . but you have brought no scripture yet that proveth it ▪ and i know all scripture is against it , therefore i deny it . and as for the scriptures alleadged ( as you say ) by amesius , they are such as were spoken to particular congregations : and in the particular congregation of colosse , paul beheld a comely order , notwithstanding there were no synod , consisting of any but onely the members and ministers of that congregation , col. 2. 5. and as for commands , which you say are some generall , and others particular ; here you labour by evasions to turne away the truth ; for you your selfe know ▪ that every particular command reacheth not to the generall , though a generall command reach to every particular . now if you can shew us in the scriptures any generall command , that all the churches should , or an example that all the churches did gather a councell of some ministers out of every particular congregation , to make decrees o● lawes to impose upon the whole , then you will speake speake something to the purpose , but as yet you have not spoken one word that proveth any such thing . and whereas you alleadge that scripture , that the spirits of the prophets must be subject to the prophets , 1 cor. 14. 32. i answer , that that is given to particular congregations ; and therefore not to all in a province or nation , and so not to synods : and paul never sought to winne credit nor obedience to orders established by himselfe , ( as you say ) for he never made any other orders , nor taught the people any other thing than what he had received of the lord jesus , as it is plaine in 1 cor. 11. be ye followers of me ( saith he ) as i am of christ , and in the 23. verse of the same chapter , i have received of the lord ( saith he ) that which i have delivered unto you . paul also writes unto these corinthians , ( whom he had converted unto the faith ) to be followers of him , 1 cor. 4. ●6 . in ver. 17. he sheweth them , that therefore he sent timothy unto them , to the end that timothy should put them in remembrance of pauls wayes in christ , as paul had taught every where in every church . here you may see paul brings not the example of the synod before them , nor layes upon them any decree or command , to practise otherwise than he himselfe had learned in christ ; yet i hope you will not deny , but that this church spoken of , was a church of christ as well as the church of colosse . now the next thing to be considered is , that which you alleadge of pauls submission , to the practise of what was agreed upon , by the common consent of iames , and the rest of the elders , acts 21. from . 18. to 27. the reason why they counselled paul to doe the thing , was , because of the information that the jewes had then against paul ▪ that he taught the people to forsake moses , acts 21. 21. now i hope you will not deny , but that this was a false affirmation . the thing wherein they conceived he transgressed was , by bringing in trophimus an ephesian , ( as they thought into the temple ) because they saw him with him in the citie . this was but their supposition , as it appeares in the 29 verse of this chapter . now what the elders counselled paul to doe , in respect of giving offence to the jewes , was no injunction to any to follow the same example , except it were in the same case . now paul himselfe was a jew , and taught all men that christ was come to fulfill the law , and not to destroy the law ; therefore he condescended to circumcise timothy because his mother was a jew , and the jewes knew his father was a grecian . but titus a grecian was not compelled to be circumcised ; yea , though there were false brethren crastily crept in , to spy out their liberty ; paul gave not place to them , no not for an houre , gal 2. 3 4. 5. now the things that the elders counselled paul to doe , was to purifie himselfe , with them that had a vow , and to contribute with them ; and the reason wherefore they counselled paul to doe this , was , that it might appeare to the jewes that paul was a jew , and not an uncircumcised person , for the jewes knew that it was a sinfull thing to bring into the temple any uncircumcised person in heart or flesh , ezek. 44. 7. now paul in all this did nothing but what was commanded in the law , as purifications and vowes , &c. moreover , this counsell of iames and the elders unto paul , was not generall to the beleeving jewes ; neither was it generally or particularly to the gentiles , but particularly to paul , and the rest with him , because of the false report which the jewes had received of him . and as this counsell was not generall , so it was not perpetuall , but served to put an honorable end to the law , which christ came to fulfill , and not to destroy . by all this it appeares , it maketh nothing for any counsell that you plead for , to establish any unwritten verities ; for such counsels are the counsels of darkenesse : because they are not according to the law and the testimony , it appeares there is no light in them : therefore they are not of authoritie to bind any particular member of the church , much lesse the generall , as you say they are . but seeing you confesse , that no synod can say ▪ it seemeth good unto the holy ghost and to us ; it plainely appeares that your counsels presume without the counsell of the holy ghost . but you may see , that the church of ierusalem did nothing without the counsell of the spirit , neither determined of any thing , that was not written in the scripture . so the churches of god now ought to presume to do nothing but what the written word allowes them ; being taught the true meaning thereof by the spirit that god hath given them . moreover , the counsell of ierusalem imposed nothing upon the gentiles for a law , but counselled them to abstaine from some necessary things , which would be either offensive to the iewes , or sinfull in themselves , acts 15. 29. 20. 28. 29. now seeing the church of ierusalem hath done nothing , but by he counsell of the written word , in forbidding things sinfull in themselves and offensive to their brethren , it appeares to be plainely against your synods , and dependencie in government , which in cases difficult , doe establish things which have no footing in gods word ; neither have they , by your owne confession , in their counsels any one , who is immediatly and infallibly imspired by the spirit , and able of himselfe to satisfie the controversie , they being by your owne confession inferiour to paul and barnabas ; and paul and barnabas might teach nothing but what was taught in the law and the prophets . and therefore , by this it appeares you have not grounded any affirmation or supposition upon gods word ; for the proving either of your synods or dependencie . thus much for your fifth reason . in your sixth reason you affirme that the government of the church by synods , is no where forbidden by god in the new testament , either directly , or by consequence . but i doe affirme the contrary , and prove it thus ; that whatsoever government is not commanded by god is accursed , and that is plainely manifested in the new testament ▪ rev. 22. 18. but your government by synods is not commanded by god , and therefore it is accursed ▪ as it will appeare in the following discourse . whereas you say , that all the ministers are greater than one : i have already proved , that the church of christ is greater than all the ministers . you say synods appoint no other office or officer in the church , which christ hath not appointed . me thinkes you are strangely put to your shifts ▪ that dare not tell the world what you meane by your synods . but if you meane the councell or convocation that used to sit at pauls , i have told you already they are none of the councell of christ , neither hath he appointed that councell or any other councell , to make , or ordaine , either officers or offices for his church , therefore so to affirme is blasphemie , for he himselfe is their lord and law-giver , and hath instituted every particular ordinance in his church , that the church hath neede of , therefore it is ( as hath beene said already ) against the law and light of nature ▪ and contrary to edification , order , peace , purenesse , lovelinesse , for any to decree for , or injoyne upon , the assemblies of the saints any other practise but those that the apostles have taught , which they themselves had learned from the lord jesus : but as for you mr. edwards , it appeareth plainely that you doe not understand nor see the forme of the lords house ; which causeth you to call upon any to produce a particular word , or rule , for the order of gods worship , what must be performed first , what second , what third , what fourth , and so of the rest ; and that no ordinance , and part of worship may be in another order . further , you chalenge them if they can , to shew a particular word or rule out of the new testament , for their church covenant , which you say , is the forme of the church . you also inquire for the forme of excommunication , and ordination , and gestures in the severall ordinances of god . and this you say they are not able to doe , but onely in generall rules . i have told you already that generall rules reach to every perticular , and that is no more than you seeme to know already : for you have confessed , that there are generall rules to teach every one of these particulars , which you could not chuse but acknowledge ; otherwise you would have made christ not so faithfull in his house as moses . but the more you know , the greater is your sinne , in that you labour to turne away the light ; and you are still repairing of those thresholds , which have beene set up by gods thresholds . if i had any hope therefore that you would be ashamed of all that you have done , i would shew you , though not all that i see , yet what i am able to expresse of the forme of the house of god , and the paterne thereof , and the going out thereof , and the comming in thereof , and all the ordinances thereof , and the lawes thereof and write it in your sight , that so you may keepe the whole fa-shion thereof , and all the ordinances thereof , and doe them . as for the ordinance of election , ordination , and excommunication &c. i have declared already the forme to them that have their eyes open to see it . but they cannot see the forme of the house , that have not repented them of the evills that they have done therefore i will cease to strive with such persons , for they may live and stay long enough , and be of no church of christ . thus much for your sixth reason . in your 7th . reason you say , that consociation and combination , in way of synods , is granted by themselves , ( and you produce for your authors these foure ; christ on his throne , examination of prelates petition , syons prerogative royal , and the protestation protested ; which authors , if the reader please to examine shall fina● cleare against you ) that which you have gathered here from these authors is , that they grant that one church should be content that matters of difference and importance should be heard by other churches , as also to be advised and counselled by other churches , &c. i answer , though all should confesse , that it is profitable to have the counsell of their brethren and neighbour churches in doubtfull cases , yet this will be farre from proving the lawfulnesse of your synods ; as may appeare by the authors that your selfe hath here alledged , for they intend no such consociation , nor combination , which you have mentioned : but seeing your selfe would have something which you cannot prove , you would begge of others to grant it or prove it for you . concerning the orders , or decrees of the church of ierusalem ( acts 16. 4 ) they were not such decrees as were alterable , but such as were warranted by god , and a perpetuall rule for all the churches of the gentiles . you neede not tell me what amesius speaketh of the parts of discipline , as if any of the separation , held it to consist all in excommunication ; for i have told you already , that they have seene the forme of the lords house , and have respect unto all his ordinances , and doe not take one for all . neither is it granted you , that admonitions and reproofès , and decreeing of excommunications should be by officers of other churches , towards members of any congregation , though in the same constitution ; the contrary most evidently appeareth , even by the practise of the church of antioch , who brought the matter to the church of ierusalem , which concerned the church of ierusalems members , neither may any of the churches now be subject to the censures of other congregations , except they must be subject to humane ordinances ; but in case , both the members , and the church , be obstinate in any knowne sinne , then are the churches of god bound to admonish her , and reprove her , and reject her ; as if the church of antiochia had found the church of ierusalem all leavened with the doctrine of iustification by circumcision ; then had the church of antiochia power to admonish , reprove , and reject the church of ierusalem , and not have communion with them , if they persisted obstinate in that evill ; for the church of antiochia was not inferiour in power to the church of ierusalem . thus much for your seventh reason . in the beginning of your eight reason you say they grant and confe●se , that churches of one constitution ought to withdraw from ; and ●enounce communion and fellowship with a congregation or church that is fallen into sinne , as false doctrine , and evill discipline , &c. i answer , i have granted you , that in the conclusion of the answer to your 7d● . reason , if the church stand obstinace in sinne , and will not be reclaimed . but that they should be complained on to syn●ds and classes , and subject to their censures , that is but a question of your owne begging , and remaines for you to prove , and denied of me . the next thing you would know is the diference betweene excomm●●ication and reje●●ion , and would seeme to make them both one ▪ to which i answer , titus had power to reject a person , a but we doe not reade that he had power of himselfe to excommunicate that person . a wicked man may be said to reject god when he rejecteth his word . so saul rejected god , ( 1 sam. 15. 23. therefore god rejected him from being king , vers. 26. but did he excommunicate god ? so the people of israel rejected god 1 sam. 8. 7. and 10. 19. did they therefore excommunicate god ? here mr. edwards , you may see that excommunication is more than rejection , as it also plainely appeares by pauls words , 1 cor. 5. 4. 5. where he delivers unto them the forme of excommunication , in these words ; when ye are gathered together , and my spirit , in the name of our lord iesus christ , that such a one by the power of our lord iesus christ be delivered unto sat●an , &c. here mr. edwards , you may plainely see the forme of this part of the lords house ; this you see paul had determined before ; and also that pauls spirit was together with the church in the action doing ; yet paul tooke not upon him that power of himselfe , but committed the action to the church who had the power of our lord iesus christ , as he himselfe testifieth , which plainely proves , that the church had the power that paul had not ; for though paul was a good counsellor , yet he was no executioner in that action , but as a member for his part . here mr. edwards you may see the difference betweene rejection and excommunication ; a man in rejecting the law of god , may be said to reject god , and he that addes to , or diminisheth from the lawes of god , rejects god , in rejecting the counsell of god , which injoynes him neither to adde , nor diminish : but you by pleading for your unknowne synods and ungrounded dependencie , reject the counsell of god ; and so doe all those , that assist you in it . the next thing you affirme is ; that this government of independencie ( which i have proved to be christs government ) overthro●es the communion of saints . to which i answer , this appeares to be contrary by that which hath beene said already ; as for example , the difference betweene the church of antiochia , and the church of ierusalem ; turned to good , because they undertooke not the authority to determine the case themselves , as hath beene said ; because it was against the members of the church of ierasalem : and this increased union and communion in both churches , as we may plainely see , for peter communicated unto them what god had revealed unto him : and paul & barnabas declared what god had done by them . iames calls from● backe to consider what peter had declared ; and backes it with the scripture , manifesting how it agreed with the words of the prophets , as you may reade at large , in act. 15. thus you may see what sweete communion was betweene these churches that were both independant . now , whereas you say 〈◊〉 be in a christian common-wealth , or nation . i doe affirme it may stand with christs church in a common-wealth , as may plainely appeare in the three first chapters of the revelations , which testifies that there were seven churc●●s in asia , and these seven churches were compared to seven g●●den candlestickes , b and every candlesticke stood by it se●● , and held forth her owne light , as appeares by those severall m●●sages , which were sent to those seven churches ; for had they had a dependencie one upon another in respect of power , then one message would have served unto them all ; and what sinne any of the churches or angels were guilty of , would have been laid unto the charge of all the churches and angels ; but wee see it was otherwise ▪ as for instance ; there was none charged for suffering the woman iezebel to teach the people ; to commit for nication , and to eate things sacrificed to idols , but the angell of thyatria ; by this you may plainely see there was not one angell set over them all , nor one synod oppointed to judge and correct them all , which is the thing you labour for . yet it cannot be said that the independancie of these seven churches hindred their communion , either with christ their head , or one with another : neither was it any disturbance to the common-wealth or nation wherein they lived . and here you cannot say that i have eyaded , but have answered you directly , to these your doubts , and suppositions , and to many of your ●ffs , which have beene , your spies sent out in this scout ; and moreover , i will answer all your many reasons as i come to them ( though they be joyned in battle with these ) i meane your following reasons against toleration ; and also batter , or drive backe your answers which you have made to the six reasons , which you say be theirs , and yet neither this scout , nor the joyned , nor the subjoyned forces , shall be able to discover what strength is on my side , although they be formed by you in battle aray . now i have proved the independant government to be christs government ; i will also prove in my answers to these your following reasons , that the independant congregations performe christs publike worship , and therefore ought to be tolerated , and maintained in the practise thereof . in the beginning of your first reason against toleration , you grant , that the scriptures speake m●ch for toleration , and bearing with one another in many things , both in matters of opinion and practise , and the scriptures you quote are very pertinent to this purpose , but alwayes provided , they are to be understood as spoken properly to particular congregations , and not unto any whole nation . but to stand for the toleration of the maintenance of heresie , and schisme , is not the toleration that we plead for ( as farre as hath beene yet made knowne ) but rather your insinuation : for i have declared unto you already in the driving backe of the first scout of your army , that god hath provided a way and meanes to purge every congregation of his from all such persons that doe offend , whether it be in matters of faith or order . neither doe any that stand for christian liberty condemne them for cruelty , or that it is against charitie . for if we compare the church with one man or a few then it will easily appeare , that the one doth out-weigh the other : ●nd you say , calvin saith , it is cruell mercy which preferres one man , or a few , before the church : to these words of calvin i doe fully agree unto , for they are of the same nature with my former answers to your reasons against independancie , where i have proved against you , that the weight and power ireth in the church and that the church is above the ministers , and that the ministers have their power by the church to exercise in the church , and not the church by the ministers . the next thing to be considered in this your reason , is your peremptory affirmation , but grounded upon no scripture , ( namely ) that to set up independant and separated churches , is a schisme in it selfe , and that it will make great disturbance in the church , both to the outward peace , and to the faith and conscience of the people of the kingdome . now that it is a schisme in it selfe , i deny , and prove the contrary thus ; god hath commanded all his people to separate themselves from all idolatry c and false worshipping d and false worshippers e ( and therefore it is no schisme ) except you will make god the author of schisme ) & this is according to the prophet esaiahs words , esay 1. which is the first lesson that every one ought to learne ; even to cease to doe evill . but i hope it will not be denied but that they are to learne another lesson , which is , to learne to doe well : but to doe well is to keepe all gods commandements , and to obey god rather then men . now gods commands to his people , is , that they learne to know the forme of the house ( as i have told you before ) and all the ordinances of the house , and to doe them , ezek. 43. 11. but the ordinances of christs kingdome under the gospell , ( amongst the rest ) are doctrine , fellowship , breaking of bread , and prayer ; which ordinances the saints continued stedfastly in , and are commended for their constancie in the same , acts 2. 42 and that in every particular church or congregation , though there were divers in one nation , and yet i hope you will not affirme it was any disturbance to the nation ( otherwise th●n christ hath shewed shall ever be , that the seed of the serpent , shall persecute the seede of the woman ) for gods people are said to be a peaceable people and the lord himself hath said that he hath set them in the world as lambs among wolves . now there must needs be a disagreement betweene lambes and wolves but the lambes are not the cause thereof . by this you may see that separation is not a scisme , but obedience to gods commandement . and for any magistrate to give way for men to separate , from the worship of the kingdome established by law ( if that worship be not according to gods law ) is the magistrates duty ; and the magistrate shall partake of no sinne in so doing because there is no sinne committed . therefore the magistrate ought not to forbid the practise of gods worship ; when hee hath power to command it ; for he is set up for the practise of those that doe well , and for the punishment of evill ●oers . and therefore you did well , when you admonished the parliament in your epistle , to cast out of the way all stambling blockes , and to breake downe all images , and crucifixes ; and to throw downe all 〈◊〉 , and remove the high places ; and to breake to pieces the brazen serpents which have beene so abused to idolatry and superstition . so then you grant , that much may be done ( as it seemeth by your speech ) and yet if there be not a full reformation , even to the throwing downe of the high places , it will prove a blemish to the reformers . you say , he that doth not forbid , when he hath power , he commands . but i hope you doubt not but the parliament hath power , and therefore whatsoever they doe not forbid ( by your owne ground ) they have or doe command . but in the protestation , they have not forbidden gods worship , which is according to his word ; but they have protested ( and have injoyned others so to doe ) to maintaine and ●●●end the protestant religion , expressed in the doctrine of the church of england , against all popery , and popish innovations , within this realme &c. and in the interpretation of their meaning of the said oath , they binde us neither to the ●●t forme of worship , discipline , or government , nor any rites or ceremonies of the said church of england . now if we must withstand popery , and popish innovations , then we must needs withstand such dependencie as makes up a whole nation a church both good and bad , without separating the precious from the vile , and also such synods or counsels that decree , and make lawes , and impose them upon any church to keepe , having not the word of god to warrant them ; for these are popish innovations , and to be withstood by us , according to our oath . and truely mr. edwards , you might have asked the independant ministers a question in private , ( for you knew where to finde them ) and not have propounded so silly a question before the parliament , when there was none there to answer you . your question is , whether it be fitting , that well meaning christians should be suffered to goe to make churches ? to this i answer , it is fitter for well meaning christians than for ill-meaning christians , for well-meaning christians be the fittest on the earth to make churches , and to choose their officers ; whether they be taylors , felt-makers , button-makers , tent-makers , shepherds , or ploughmen , or what honest trade soever , if they are well-meaning christians ; but ill-meaning priests are very unfit men to make churches ; because what they build up with one hand , they pull downe with the other . futuher you seeme to feare the s●reading of heresies , if there be not a bi●drance of these assemblies . but you should rather feare that your owne glory would be eclipsed by their gifts and graces ; for they are not men of so meane parts , as you would make them : but are able to divide the word of god aright by the spirit that god hath given them . therefore i would wish you rather to let your heart bleed for your selfe and for the evills that you have done . for christ will never suffer any to perish for whom he died . thus much for your first reason . in your second reason you say , the toleration desired will not helpe to beale the schismes and rents of your church . to which i answer , that if your church be not the church of christ , it will not heale it indeede , for though the prophets would have healed babel , it could not be healed . you say that ministers and people will not submit to the reformation and government setled by law . it is very like so , if it be not free from innovations of popery , because they are sworne to the contrary . but you say many doubts will arise in the peoples mindes , that the government of your church is not ordered according to the word of god . to this i answer ; if you meane the church of englands government , established by the canon law . i thinke it is out of doubt with the most , for they that understand but little , doe see and know that that government is vaine and popish ; and that is the reason ( as i conceive ) why so many refuse to conforme to it : and if you feare that that will prove so great a division , you may doe well to counsell the magistrates , to expell all such government , and to reject all such synods and counsells , and to labour to understand the minde of god , and to set up his government over beleevers in the kingdome of england . and whereas you say , that many of the people who yet be not in this church way , are possessed with these principles ( of the independant way ) and much looking towards it : i say it is pitty they should any longer be led about by the way of the wildernesse . 2. you doe affirme , that the mindes of multitudes of professors in england , and especially in the city of london , are upon all occasions , very apt to fall to any way in doctrine or discipline , that is not commonly received by the church . i answer , indeede the proverbe is verified upon them . the burned child dreads the fire ; for they have beene so long deceived by your false glosses , that now their eyes being a little open , the light appeareth very sweete unto them ; yea , although they see men but like trees , as the blinde man , when his eyes began to be opened , who had beene blinde from his birth . the third thing which you have laid downe in this reason , is ; that the ministers will not be tied , from preaching those points in publike , nor from speaking of them in private . to which i answer , i hope they will not indeed , for it were their great sinne , if they should not declare gods whole councell , so farre as he hath revealed it unto them . but if they would ( you say ) the people both men and women , are s● strangely bold and pragmaticall , and so highly conceited of their way as the kingdome of christ and the onely way of christ , that out of those principles , they would be drawing many of their friendship and kindred ; and many would ( say you ) come unto them . i answer , that this ( i hope ) you count a vertue , for it is the property of the sheepe when they fare well , to call their fellowes ▪ but hogges will not doe so . the fourth thing to be minded is ( that you say ) liberty , the power of government , and rule , to be in the people , are mighty pleasing to flesh and blood , especially in meane persons , and such as have beene kept under . to which i answer , that they that have beene kept under , have beene kept under by the tyranny of the man of sinne ; this you confesse to be especially the poore , upon whom those taskemasters have laid the greatest burthens . therefore for them to affect liberty is no wonder . and whereas you say they would have the power and rule : i answer , it is not any power or rule which is pleasing to the flesh ( as you speake , thinking them to be like those priests , whose god is their belly , whose glory is their shame , who minde earthly things ) but it is the power of christ which they stand for , as they are members of the churches of christ ; to which churches christ the king thereof hath given all power in spirituall things . and that the church of christ consisteth of meane persons , is no wonder ; for wee have learned , that the poore receive the gospell , and you know you have granted , that it stands with the light and law of nature , that the liberty , power , and rule , should be in the whole , and not in one man or a few ; so that the power must rest in the body ▪ and not in the officers , though the church be never so poore . now the fifth thing you minde in this reason is , that tolleration will be made use of to strengthen their way . and you also conclude , it will be granted , that the ablest ministers could not answer them , and therefore were content they should have a tolleration . you doe very well to feare the worst , but you had done better if you had armed your selfe against them , and answered the scriptures , they bring by scripture : but it is a plaine case , you could not do that , & therfore your feare was just ; but if you were a wellminded man , or a wellmeaning christian man , you should not have feared the comming of the truth to light , nor have been afraid of reformation , because it would worke to your greater divisions , and rents , for christ came not to set peace upon the earth , ( as i have told you before ) but the seede of the serpent will be ever playing his part . thus much for your second reason . in your third reason you affirme , that tolleration will breed divisions , and schismes , disturbing the peace and quiet of churches , and townes . i answer , i have told you already , we plead for no tolleration that shall disturbe the peace of churches or townes . moreover , you say , it will not onely doe so , but it will also breed divisions in families betweene husband and wife , brother , and brother . to which i answer , there was a division in the first family that ever was , and brother rose up against brother ▪ but tolleration was not the cause of it ; but the malice of sathan in the seed of the serpent , as it hath beene , and is now at this day . and this is according to christs words , luke 12. 52 , 53. which saith , that there shall be five in one house , two against three , and three against two , &c. and in matth. 10. 34 , 35 , 36. thinke not ( saith he ) that i come to send peace into the earth , i came not to send peace , but the sword : for i am come to set a man at variance against his father , and the daughter against her mother , and the daughter in law against her mother in law , and a mans enemies shall be they of his owne household ; and moreover , in luke 21. 16. our saviour doth declare , that we shall be betrayed , both by parents , and brethren , and kinssolkes , and friends . now if christ may be said to be the author of evill , then you may say that toleration of true religion is the cause of this division . againe you say , ( o how ) this will occasion disobedience . to this your lamentation i answer . o that you would remember the rule * that every servant ought to count his master worthy of all honour ; and in the judgement of charitie beleeve , that persons professing the gospel will learne that lesson . next you say o! how will this take away that power & authority which god hath given to husbands , fathers , and masters , over wives , children , and servants . to this i answer , o! that you would consider the text in 1 cor. 7. which plainly declares that the wife may be a beleever , & the husband an unbeleever ▪ but if you have considered this text , i pray you tell me , what authority this unbeleeving husband hath over the conscience of his beleeving wife ; it is true he hath authority over her in bodily and civill respects , but not to be a lord over her conscience ; and the like may be said of fathers and masters , and it is the very same authority which the soveraigne hath over all his subjects , & therfore it must needes reach to families : for it is granted that the king hath power ( according to the law ) over the bodies , goods , and lives of all his subjects ; yet it is christ the king of kings that reigneth over their consciences : and thus you may see it taketh away no authority which god hath given to them . the next thing you say is , that they cannot be certaine , that their servants and children sanctifie the lords day . to which i answer , that indeede unbeleeving masters take as little care of this ▪ as they that have given liberty to prophane the lords day ; but beleeving parents and masters , may easily know ( if their children or servants be of any congregation ) what their life and conversation is , and therefore this can hinder no duties , or workes of families ( as you falsely affirme ) nor crosse the good and peace of familes . by this you may see , that this your groundlesse affirmation , is no good reason against toleration . and therefore the court of parliament ( to whom you submit for judgement ) may easily see that good members both for churches and common-wealths , may issue out of such families , that live under christs government , and that such families may be good nurseries , both for church and common-wealth . thus much for your third reason . in your fourth reason you doe affirme , that there will be great danger of disputes amongst you about government and worship , and doctrine , and practises ( in the conclusion ) you say , it will be about a question where saints goe when they die , whether to heaven or a third place . i answer , this is a question i never heard amongst the separates , ( or any of those whom you call independant men ) , but amongst the papists of rome , and england . the next thing is , about sitting with hats on to breake bread ? i answer , this may be a question indeed , but not to breede division ; for it may be as lawfull for one man to sit covered & another uncovered , as it may be lawfull for one man to receive it sitting , and another lying in bed . but if any man list to be contentious , the churches of god have no such custome . thus much for your fourth reason . in your fifth reason you affirme , that the ministers of the kingdome , can have little assurance , of the continuance of their flockes to them , if such a toleration be granted , but that the tolerated churches will admit them into fellowship , and increase churches out of their labours : and that they should doe little else but spend and be spent . to this i answer , that if you were the ministers of christ , as you would be taken to be , it might be your comfort , joy , and glory , for it was the apostles worke to gather the saints , and to travell in birth of children ; and they did not grudge that they were added unto the churches of christ , but tooke care for them being so added , for the care of all churches lay upon them , and therefore they were as fathers , and nurses , unto them ; and the gospell admits of no such theft as to steale away members from other churches : but if men draw neere to the truth ( which never ▪ were members of any church ) and offer themselves to joyne unto us ; we may admit them upon good experience of their life and conversation , for those members that travelled from one church to another , were commended unto those churches by letters from the church where they were members , or else they could not have beene admitted : and thus you may see the way of the gospell admits of no such disorder . now whereas you say ▪ that this toleration upon any light occasion of demanding dues ; or preaching against any thing they like not , opens a wide doore , and will invite them to disert their ministers . i answer , by demanding of that which you call dues ; you may indeede give just occasion , for you may demand for due , that which is not due ; as all the priests of england doe . likewise by preaching of doctrine , you may give just occasion ▪ if you justifie the wicked , and condemne the just , and make sad the hearts of those whom god would not have made sad ; and then if your people flye from you , you may thanke your selves ; but concerning what you count to be your due , i will declare hereafter . * thus much for your fifth reason . now in the beginning of your sixth reason , you say , that liberty will be an undoubted meanes and way of their infinite multiplication and increase , even to thirty fould . truely i thinke you are afraid , as pharaoh was , least the lords ▪ people should grow mightier then you . next you say , if the parliament could like to have more of the breede of them , and have a delight to have multitudes exempted from the ecclesiasticall lawes of the land , &c. i answer , it is no disgrace to the parliament , if they should so delight ▪ though never parliament before had done the like . moreover , you say , they have increased within this nine moneths , without a toleration , therefore ( you conclude ) they would multiply much , if they had a toleration , in many , if not in most townes and parishes ; and ●ou say it cannot be helped . all this i grant may be ; although they have not a toleration , i thinke they will increase ; for the taskemasters can lay no heavier burthens upon them , then they have laid already : but though they should increase , it will not be unprofitable , for the increase of beleevers will be the strength and ▪ glory of the kingdome ; for they will in all lawfull things , be subject to the kings majestie their ▪ dread soveraigne , and to all the wholesome lawes of his land , and therefore it will be no danger to have ( as you say ) swarmes of them . thus much for your sixth reason . in your 7th . reason you affirme , that it will be very pre●udiciall dangerous and insufferable to this kingdome , for saints two , or three , or more , to gather ▪ and combine themselves in church fellowship , having one ●● power from christ their immediate heade : without expecting warrant from any governors . first ▪ whereas you say it will be prejudiciall : i answer , it can prejudice none in the kingdome , except it be the priests , and it will be but of a little tithes , which they dare not in conscience pay , because those iewish ceremonies are ceased ▪ and if they have not toleration , that will be all one ( in that respect ▪ ) for they will rather suffer , then doe any thing against conscience . now whereas you say it will be dangerous , and insufferable to the kingdome , both these i deny ; for if they were offensive people , two or three or a few could doe but little hurt . but they have beene proved to be a peaceable people and the suffering of such hath never beene dangerous to any nation ▪ but the not suffering of such to live quietly in a land , or to passe quietly thorow a land , hath brought judgements upon such lands . now whereas you seeme to imply , that they should aske leave of the magistrate , to gather and combine themselves into visible churches , &c. i answer , i doe not reade that any ever asked leave of the magistrate for such a thing ; nor to performe any of the parts of gods worship or discipline : and yet you confesse that these independant men doe petition , to the parliament for liberty . * now i pray you master edw●rds , would you have magistrates , and kings , and princes to have more power over their subjects then over their bodies , estates , and lives ? would you have them be lords over their consciences ? i pray you where must christ reigne then ? must he sit at the magistrats footestoole ? and take what power the magistrate will give him ? ( i meane spirituall power of gathering and making churches ) and such lawes as the magistrate will give him leave to have , to rule over them by ? here you thrust christ into a narrow corner ; for you would faine force him to give his glory to some other , and his praise to some graven image , of your owne devising , which he hath said he will not doe . * but methinkes it were fitter for men of ●our coate , to ground the government of christs church , upon 〈◊〉 written word of god , and not upon statute lawes , nor canon lawes , which you call ecclesiasticall ; for it will be no disparagement to the imperiall crowne of this realme , for christs church to be governed by christs owne lawes . the next thing is , you say , the oath of supremacie was appointed by law for ecclesiasticall persons to take . me thinkes that was a good consideration , for ecclesiasticall persons have beene in all ages ready to tyrannize , over kings and emperours . but now you aske the independant men ( as you call them ) a question ; but before you come to the question , you lay downe an affirmation or a conclusion ; ( namely ) that these independant men give power to the churches . to which i answer ; if they should doe so , they were very ignorant , and very presumptuous , for christ hath given power to the churches , and all the ministers that doe administer in the churches , must have the power by the church . but say you , they give that power to the churches , which the papists give unto the pope . i answer , if they doe so they are blasphemers for the papists acknowledge the pope to be the head of the church : which title all men ought to give onely unto christ . but now to your question ; which is , whether they will take the oath of supremacie , or doe acknowledge in their prayers , the king defender of the faith ? &c. to which i answer , this ooth you say , was ordained for ecclesiasticall persons ▪ and i hope these ecclesiasticall independant men ( if i may safely so call them ) will ever , both acknowledge , and maintaine , that the king is supreme over all the land ▪ therefore over the church of the land , though it consist of the clergie , as it appeares by that oath which you say was appointed for the clergie ▪ but whether they doe acknowledge the king , defender of the faith , &c. which is the later part of your question ? to this i answer . it is out of all doubt , that these men doe desire from their heart , ( as well as all the lords people ) that the king may defend the faith of christ jesus , and dayly make their prayers and supplications to god for him , and that in conscience , and obedience to god , being commanded in his word so to doe ▪ for they know it is a duty laid upon them ; for prayers and supplications must be made for kings , and all them that be in authoritie ; b but 〈◊〉 can make axceptable prayers , but the saints , for the prayers of the wicked are abomination unto the lord c but that all kings have beene defenders of the faith of christ , i deny ; for there is but one faith , * and those that do maintaine that true saith of our lord jesus christ , lawfully have that title given them ; and none other may lawfully have it but they . you will happily say , queene mary was not a defender of the faith . but i say unto you , if the crowne of england give unto kings and queenes that title ; queene mary had as much right to the title as queene elizabeth . &c. secondly , you say ▪ they hold that the imposition of lawfull things , doth make them unlawfull , ( which you say is a strange paradoxe . ) i answer the imposition of lawfull things doe not make them unlawfull , if he that imposeth them have authoritie so to doe : as for example ; the i●●osition of an oath is very lawfull ; but if it be imposed by him that hath not authoritie , though it make not the oath unlawfull simply in it selfe , yet it makes the use of it unlawfull , at that time , both to him and to me . but as for formes of prayer : which ( you say ) they doe confesse to be for order , and lawfull in themselves , yet unlawfull , being imposed . i say , not as you say , they say , for i know no forme of prayer lawfull in it selfe , for any of the lords people to tie themselves unto ; nor that ever was imposed upon any by christ , or his apostles ; ( we reade in 1 tim. 2. 1. 2. that all manner of prayers must be made unto god ; and amongst other , supplications must be made for kings , but there was no forme of words given by which wee must pray for any : and we are commanded to pray with the spirit , and to pray with understanding ; ) but we are commanded to avoid an evill manner of praying ; that we should not be like the hipocrites ; which love to stand and pray in the synogogues , * nor that we should make vaine repititions as the heathens , which thinke to be heard for their much babling : * and as also we are forbidden an evill manner of praying ; so wee are commanded by god what manner to use , as it is plaine in matth. 6. 9. the manner is that wee must in our prayers acknowledge god to be our father . and secondly , that he is in heaven . thirdly , we must give glory to his name . fourthly , we must pray for the coming of his kingdome . fiftly , we must pray that the lords will may be done , both in earth and in heaven . sixthly , wee must pray for all things necessary for this life , which is there set forth under the name of dayly bread . seventhly , wee must pray for the forgivenesse of our owne sinnes ; and we are also put in minde , that as wee would have our owne sinnes forgiven , so we should forgive others ; if they acknowledge their offences , according to that in luke 17 ▪ 4 ▪ if thy brother trespasse against thee seven times a day , and seven times a day , end say it repenteth him , &c. eightly , we must pray against temptations to be delivered from the evills thereof . and lastly , we must conclude with thankesgiving acknowledging the kingdome to be the lords and all power , and glory to be due unto him , not onely for that present time , but for ever . here you may see we are taught the manner how we ought to pray , but we are tied to no forme of words , yet we are to beleeve that this is a perfect rule , and that we may sufficiently ground all the petitions we neede to put up from this very rule . as for example . as we desire to acknowledge god to be our father , so wee ought to desire , that others would doe the like . and whereas we ought to pray for the kingdome of god to come , we are not to limit it to this , ( that christ may come to rule in us onely ) but that-he may rule as a king in the heart of all his chosen . neither ought wee alone to acknowledge praises but wee ought to desire that prayses to god may be acknowledged by others also , and that they may grant the kingdome , and power , and glory to be his , not that he should be a king onely to rule in the hearts of men , but also that he may rule and governe the actions of the bodies of men in his outward worship : as we are commanded to glorifie god with our bodies and soules , and the reason , is because they are his , 1 cor. 6. 20. now , if our bodies and soules be gods , then it must needs be granted ▪ that it is in spirituall worship : for in all civill things it hath beene acknowledged already , that both bodies and lives are our soveraigne lord the kings ; in whose land we dwell . now if there were any forme of prayer for men to bind themselves unto , it would have beene shewed , either in this scripture , or in some other ; which thing you have not yet proved . that they were not tied to this forme of words is plaine by another evangelist , which doth not use the same words , but addeth some , and leaveth out other some ; and also the whole forme of thankesgiving , is left out by luke , ( luke 11. 2. 3. 4. compared with matth. 6. 9. ) and to seeke the helpe of any booke but the bible to teach men to pray , is to disable god which hath promised to give beleevers his spirit , whereby they shall cry abba father , c and that that spirit should leade them into all truth , and bring all things to their remembrance d therefore a forme of prayer for men to tie themselves unto , cannot be sufficient and pleasing to god though it were never imposed by any . thirdly , you lay another slander upon us , as though we should affirme , that christian princes , and magistrates , who are defenders of the faith have no more to doe in and about the church , then heathen princes . this is not true , for we know that christian princes , and magistrates ought to be members of christs church ; and so being they may be officers in the church ; and if they be defenders of the faith , they be such as defend the pure worship of god , manifested in his word , as also the true professors thereof , and that against all tyrannicall power that shall attempt to suppresse either it or them , as the good kings of judah and israel did , by slaying the servants and prophets of baal who had slaine the lords people . but heathen kings cannot be said to be members of the church of christ before they know christ , and then they become christian kings . therefore , to vent upon all occasions , such principles as you see wee hold , and maintaine , is not ( as you say ) dangerous and insufferable , neither are the people . but you say further , that the people for a great part of them are heady and refractory , and proud , and bitter , and scornfull , and dispisers of authoritie , and that they will not suffer publike prayers to be prayed , but that by their gesture and threatning of the ministers , they have laboured to hinder the use of them : and these people ( i gather from your owne words ) are the professors in england , and especially in the city of london ; and it is very like to be so ; because they were there at the time of your service ; ( for neither the separates nor semiseparates ( as you call them ) use to be there at the time of your service ( for ought i know : ) and these professors you have also called idle , & busibodies , tatlers also , as it is said , 1 tim. 5. 13. very wanton in their wits ( say you ) affecting novelties in religion , and liking of points that are not established nor commonly held , and these you say are many of the professors ▪ * and in your second reason against toleration , pag. 24. ( you say ) that the mindes of multitudes of the professors in england , and especially in this citie , are upon all occasions very apt to fall to any way in doctrine or discipline that is not commonly received by the church , &c. but i tel you , you ought not to blame any for withstanding any thing in gods worship , which is not grounded in his word : neither ( if the whole body of the worship there tendred be the invention of man ) ought any of them to be blamed for opposing such a worship ; because it is according to their protestation . yet i justifie none that will oppose disorderly , as either by casting up of hats , or threatning the minister , or any the like unseemely behaviour ; for i judge it better for them to depart in peace , if they have not faith in the action performed but methinkes ( mr. edwards ) you have foulely missed it , in that you have thus vilified your brethren , to call them by the names of those mockers which ( paul testified ) should come in the last time , that should be heady ▪ and high minded , and proud boasters , and dispisers of authority ; for such as these have not the power of godlinesse , ( and by this you make your church a foule church , and defile shrewdly your owne nest , and make it appeare to all men that you live in a cage of uncleane birds ) & therefore you are commanded from such to turne aside ; * if the feare of god be in your heart . moreover , you say , you feare they will not tolerate the government established by the ecclesiasticall , and civill lawes ; and you would faine father the cause of this your feare upon separates , and independancie , whereas you cannot be so ignorant , but that you must know , that the government established by law may stand without the leave of separates , for they have neither power to give toleration , nor to prohibit toleration , for , or against any thing . but you say , you would rather pray against toleration , than prophesie of the wofull effe●ts of it . i answer , if you can make such a prayer in a time acceptable , then sometimes such prayers will be accepted which are not grounded upon gods word . but of the wofullest effects of toleration , you have prophesied already ; in that you say , they will withstand your doctrine and your dues , * and that will be a wofull effect indeede ! when you shall be driven , to cry out , alas , alas , that great city babylon , for in one houre is so great wealth come to desolation . thus much for your seventh reason . in your eight reason , you affirme , that these independant men , where they have power , as in new-england , will not tolerate any churches or government , but in their owne way . in using the word these , you carry the matter so darkely , that i know not whom you meane , for you have named none . but you seeme to say , they be men that have power in new england . i answer , indeede it may happen to be so ; that there may be some men there , that take upon them authority , to binde mens consciences , as you and all your fellowes do here . but if it have beene so , i thinke it was , because they had ( here in england ) taken upon them an oath of conformity , ( as you have sometimes done ; ) and because the tyranny of the prelats was so mighty , against all good men , that they were faine to go away privately , and so had not time or opportunity publikely to disclaime this their oath ; and then there might be feare , that upon complaint made for disorder committed there , in suffering the liberty of the gospel there which could not be admitted here , they might have beene sent for backe by their ordinaries , and so have been committed ▪ to some stincking prison , here in london , there to have beene murdered ▪ as divers of the lords people have beene , of these late yeares , as i am able to prove of my owne knowledge ; and if they have banished any out of their parents , that were neither disturbers of the peace , of the land , nor the worship practised in the land , i am perswaded , it was their weakenesse , and i hope they will never attempt to doe the like . but i am still perswaded , they did it upon the same ground , that having knowledge in themselves , that their former oath , might be a snare unto them , if they did not hold still some correspondencie with the practise of england , even till god should open a way or meanes for them to seeke free liberty for all , by the approbation of authority . the next thing you minde against them is , that they would not admit liberty , to some of their brethren , which were godly ministers ▪ though they did approve of them , as being against ceremonies . to this , 1. i answer , that it is strange that any man should send to aske their liberty . 2. it is much more strange to me ( if it be true , as you say , that these men were against ceremonies ) that there should be any difference betweene them , and the ministers in new england . but it seemes ( by your speech ) they would have gone in a middle way , which presupposeth to me , that they are so farre from being against ceremonies , that are already invented , that they would have set up some invention of their owne . the next thing you charge some of them with , is , that they would not admit into fellowship , those that would not enter into their covenant , and professe faith , and submit to their church orders , though they would be of their church me thinkes you have strange evasions , but i pray you answer me to these two questions : the first is , how men of yeares of discretion , may ( by the rule of gods word ) be admitted into fellowship , and not professe their faith . secondly , how men may be accounted , to be of the church , and not submit unto the orders of the church : seeing that the apostle paul had these two things to rejoyce in ; the beholding of the saints stedfast faith , and comely order , in the church . but you say , that these men who would faine have a toleration in this great kingdome , will not allow any in their small particular congregations . truely ( mr. edwards ) it were good for you to labour to understand the minde and will of god for your selfe , and have charitie towards your brethren ; and hope well , that they have so much knowledge , of the lords will , that they will not pleade for such an absurdity , as to set up one church , within another , and so make a schisme . but the toleration they plead for , is that gods true worship , may be set up in the kingdome ▪ by those that understand what it is ; and that by the sufferance of the governors ; and that it should be setled in a peaceable way ; which would be farre from disturbing the peace of three kingdomes , ( as you invectively speake ; ) but to set up a congregation in a congregation , would be confusion , even as to set up one kingdome ▪ within another . the next thing you charge them with , is , that they are partiall ; ( by a supposition of your owne : ) for you say , it is ordinary for men , when they are not in place , nor have no power in church or common-wealth ; and hold also do●rines and principles contrary to what is held and established ; to pleade for toleration ; but when the same men come to have place and power ( say you ) they will not tolerate others ; and you say , that you doe beleeve that these are the men , which now indevour a toleration . to this i answer , you may doe well to let this beleefe of yours be no article of your faith , because it stands upon no ground ; for though a man may hope the best , and feare the worst ; yet he may beleeve nothing but what he hath proofe for . but i doe beleeve that all this is your evill surmising , ( to think , that if they had power in their hands to settle a government , they would tolerate none but their independant way , ) as it may plainely appeare by the protestation protested , which you quote here for your author , for though the protestor declare what he would have for the churches of the saints ; yet he doth not take upon him to determine , what government or rule , shall be set up in the land , to bring men out of darkenesse to light , but leaveth that to the judgement of them which have the power , even the king and parliament . thus much for your eight reason . in your ninth reason you affirme , that toleration may he demanded , upon the same grounds , for brownists , anabaptists , and familists , and others , who professe it is their conscience . to which i answer ; that seeing you plead for them , i may well hold my peace . but i thinke the familists will not aske liberty for toleration if they be as ( i doe conceive ) of the sect of the libertines mention in the acts . but , say you , these may be pleaded for upon better grounds then semi-separates , and the reason you say is , because they deny the truth of your church . answer , i do beleeve , those ( whom you call semi-separates ) do deny the truth of your church also ; ( though not in all respects ) and so farre as they be separates , they must needs deny the church from which they separate . but you here demand , whether papists may not petition and have hope ▪ for toleration , seeing it is their conscience . to this i answer , i know no reason why they may not petition and hope to speede also , seeing they have many friends in the kingdome . further , you adde , that if one sort may have an exemption from the religion established , why not others ? i answer . there may be many reasons given , why those may not have freedome ( of any great resorts in the land ) which have often attempted , by plots , and treachery to ruinate the land . the next thing you affirme , is , if ever the doore of toleration , should be but a little opened , there would be great crowding in . to this i answer , that the more good men doe imbrace the whole truth of god , the better it will be , but there have beene too many crowders and creepers in in all ages ; and we may justly feare it will be so still ; for the text saith , in the 2 pet. 2. 2. that many shall follow their destruction , and some of them shall doe it through covetousnesse , who shall with fained words make merchandise of the lords people ( as is plaine in the next verse ) whose destruction sleepeth not . but who these creepers in be , appeares by the 15. verse of this chapter , that they were they that loved the wages of unrighteousnesse as balaam did : but if any one so doe , his last end shall be worse ' then his beginning . thus much for your ninth reason . in your tenth reason , you affirme , that the first principle of the independant way , is , that two or three saints wheresoever , or by what meanes soever they doe arise ; separating themselves from the world into the fellowship of the gospell , are a church truely gathered : for this you quete mr. robinsons iustification , pag. 221. but in that page there is no such thing written , as i can finde , but seeing it commeth so neere the truth , we neede not to contend about it . for i doe affirme , that a company of saints , separated from the world , and gathered into the fellowship of the gospell ( by what meanes so ever it be , that matters not , so it be by the teaching of the sonne of god , according to that in heb. 1. 1. ) these saints ( i say ) separating themselves , and being gathered into the fellowship of the gospell ( though they combine themselves without the warrant of the governours ) are a true church , and have right to all gods ordinances , not onely to admit men into fellowship , but also to admonish , to reprove and to cast out of their societie all obstinate offenders amongst them that doe transgresse , either against the first or second table ; having ( as hath beene said before ) the spirit of god to guide them , and wisedome from above to judge of persons , and causes , within the church , though they have nothing to doe to judge those that are without . and this doth not make way for libertisnime , for heresies and sectaries ( as you say ) neither doth it make men to runne from their owne ministers , because they restraine them from sinne , or keepe them to gods ordinances , ( as you doe affirme ) for if any separate for any such cause , they shall not be received into fellowship , nor justified of any of the lords people . but the way of the gospell , as hath beene plainely proved , is not to live without gods ordinances , nor to live at liberty ( as you say ) except you meane the liberty wherein christ hath set them , and commanded them to stand fast , because he hath made them free , gal. 5. 1. by this you may see the saints are called into liberty ; but not a liberty to sinne ( as you would insinuate ) but to be freed from the yoake of bondage , which is the tyranny , or tyrannicall government of the canon lawes , either of rome or england . but you say , all heretickes , sectaries , or libertines will count themselves saints , as well as the independant men ; and the reason you seeme to give for this , is , because the ministers , and magistrats of the kingdome , shall not have power to determine who be saints . * now let all men judge what a weighty argument this is , who is he that knows any thing & knows not this , that the priests in england which are the bishops creatures , do generally justifie the wicked , and condemne the just , and are not these meet men to judge saints ? they justifie none that will not be conformable , and yeeld unto the traditions which they have invented , in their councels and convocations ; though they have not one title of gods word to warrant them ; furthermore , they condemne all that will not submit , to their devised worship , even in all the traditions thereof : and this is the dependancie which they have brought all men unto , both high and low , even to be subject to their wills , which is a law . but now touching the magistrate , you would seeme to inferre that he should have no more power than a priest . it is plaine , the priests have no power , but what they have by permission , and sufferance ▪ though they have dependancie upon the pope himselfe , but the magistrate hath power given him of god by whom he is set up , for the praise of those that doe well and for the punishment of evill doers , and hath the same rule given him ( whereby to judge them ) that god hath given to his church ; especially christian magistrates , notwithstanning they are opposed , yet they have power given of god ; as you may reade in acls 7 35. this man moses whom they forsooke saying , who ma●e thee a prince and a iudge , the same god sent for a prince and a deliverer : and this is he which was as a god unto aaron ; when aaron was as the mouth of moses to the people , exod. 4. 16. now if you priests could have proved your selves as aaron , then you might have beene assistants to godly magistrates to deliver the lords people out of the hands of tyrannicall princes ; but contrariwise , you adde afflictions as pharaohs taskemasters did ; even you ( mr. edwards ) when you say the lords people are wanton-witted and idle , when they desire to have liberty to serve god . and thus you sit in the consciences of men ; judging zeale to be hypocrisie ; but the time will come , when every worke shall be brought to judgement . and now drawing neere to an end of this answer to your tenth reason ( which is the last of this your joyned army ) it is good to looke backe a little , and consider what hath beene said . you have spoken much for dependencie ; but upon whom you doe depend , i cannot tell ; you labour to bring men into doubts , by your suppositions , but you doe not make any conclusion , which is gods way , that men fearing god , may expect a blessing when they walke in it , but you cry out for dependencie , upon councels , and synods , and churches ; i pray you what dependencie hath the church of england upon any other church ? for i suppose you will say , that all the land is but one church . if you say , that you have dependencie , upon the church of rome ; i doe beleeve you ; for the bishop of canterbury hath said so much , in his booke , where hee confesseth , rome to be as leprous naaman , and england to be the same naaman cleansed . now that it is the same , may easily be proved , by divers of your owne authors . but you in your epistle , affirme , it is not cleansed , in that place , where you say , that there is yet altars and images , brasen serpents , abused to idolatry , with divers other things , which you would have purged out . by this it appeares , that it is the same with rome , in the very nature of it ▪ though not in every circumstance , and this ( for any thing can be discerned ) is the dependancie , for which you pleade : even the dependancie and affinitie , betweene rome and england . therefore you should rather have said , that in the belly of this dependancie , doth lurke all liberty , and heresie , and whatsoever , sathan , and the corrupt hearts of men have a pleasure to broach . for in that way , it is too common , for men to broach their owne pleasures ; for their religion is made of mens inventions . thus much for your 10th . reason . yet furthermore , ( for addition to these ten reasons , you adde a question ; * your qeustion is , what these men would have in this toleration , whether the number of five or sixe congregations onely , and no more ? or whether the number shall be left undetermined , and be free to multiply ? &c. for answer to this , i doe affirme , that the number ought not to be limitted , for the churches of the new testament were free , to multiply , not onely in greatnesse , but also in number . i say they were left free by god ; for the apostles were not limitted , from constituting churches wheresoever men were brought to beleeve in christ . but say you , it is their principles to breake one church in two or three . i answer , i know no man that holdeth any such principle . but say you , it hath beene so at amsterdam , roterdam , and london . to this i answer , i deny not , but that there may be offences taken , and sometimes given , which may cause men to depart one from another ( as paul and barnabas did ) sometimes about persons , and sometimes about things ; and wofull experience teacheth all men , that brethren are apt to fall out by the way ; and that ioseph knew very well , when he admonished his brethren to the contrary . * but though some should be offended , and could not be reconciled , ( as the scripture saith , a brother offended , is harder to be wonne than a strong citie * ) yet the departing of such a brother , ( or breth●en ) cannot make that church two churches , yet notwithstanding this may sometimes tend to the further spreading of the gospell , even as the departing of paul and barnabas did . not that i justifie the practise of any that are not apt to beare , but that god doth sometimes , bring good out of evill , ( as it was in the selling of ioseph , * by turning it to his owne glory , and the good and comfort of his people . therefore you neede not to marvell . which shall be the state approved by the magistrate ; because that properly , there remaineth but one intire state , ( in such cases of division , as you have before mentioned . ) by all this it appeares that it is none of our principles to breake one church into two or three . but you say , if the number be left undetermined , there may be many churches in a towne . for answer whereof , i must tell you , that i reade in the scriptures of no more churches in a towne , but one , as in ierusalem where there were many converts , yet i reade but of one church . now this was in the first plantation of the gospell , but what they might increase to afterward , the scripture is silent in , for any thing i know . but that there may be two or three in one place ( as you say ) that seemeth unto me to be confusion , except they should meete in one place for consultation , which may very well be , for god is the god of order and not of confusion . and i never reade in the scripture , that two churches met together in one place , for the practise of publike worship . but say you ; we may have , every where , three or foure men ; of an opinion differing from others , to goe to make a church . to this i answer , if you meane ( by every where ) in every towne of the land , i say , although it should be so , ( and though there be sixe townes in a parish ) yet it will be no no confusion ; for the fewer they are together the lesse ground will there be of fearing them . but touching divisions and subdivisions . if any such thing happen , it is but that which we have bin told on before . the apostles words are these , they went out from us , because they were not of us , &c. * and if evill minded men , that crept in departed from christ , * we neede not to thinke much , that such creepers in , should depard from us also ; yet the disorderly going away of any ( as i have said before ) doth not make them a church which goe away disorderly . and thus i have given you an answer to your second tenth reason , * for in your booke you have by your stile made it a reason , though you seemed at the first entrance into it to make it but a question . but before you conclude the whole , you subjoyne to these , the answer to five or sixe things ( which you would make to be their reasons ) and you say that they are continually alleadged , by them for their toleration , in this kingdome . the first reason ( you say they bring ) is , that toleration is no more , then the french , and dutch enjoy , who live among us . indeede that is a very good reason , for methinkes it stands with equitie , that natives borne , should have as much priviledge as strangers . but you would seeme to alter the state of the case , in sixe respects . first , that the french and dutch protestants have nothing , nor desire nothing , as contra distinct to the protestants of france and holland . i answer , if the protestants of france , and holland , have liberty of their conscience , and be not at all burdened , with iewish , popish , or heathenish observations , but may be free there , to worship god , according to his will , revealed in his word , then they that are here ( amongst us ) neede not to seeke more liberty , and i am sure the independant men will aske no more . secondly , you say , that this liberty , was granted , by our pio●s princes , in the times of persecution to the protestants . here you crosse your first respect , for if these protestants were persecuted in france , then it is certaine their religion was different , from the state of their owne nation ; for you say they could not enjoy their religion at home . furthermore you adde , that it hath beene kept ever since , for a refuge to the persecuted protestants . to which i answer , the very like may be said of the libertie granted to the english church in amsterdame , which hath beene a refuge for the protestants which have beene persecuted out of england ever since . but ( you say ) we may enjoy our religion in this land , and that by the authority of the king and parliament . if it be so : i pray you what is the meaning , of the bleating of such cattell , as your selfe ? which cry out dayly to the king and parliament ▪ for the suppression of the lords people ; and for the hindring of their meetings . thirdly , you say , the french and dutch churches will willingly be joyned in government , and in one way of discipline with the kingdome , if there be a reformation . indeede if you had not added a great if , here you had told a loud untruth , but if this were performed , that there were a reformation , according to gods will , i doubt not but the independant men would doe the like . fourthly , you say these churches doe not hold our principles , but doe admit of appeales in great businesses . i answer , i have told you already , and i now tell you againe , that i admit of appeales also , such as the scripture warrants , and i have declared at large what appeales they be . * fifthly , you say , they be strangers different in language , and have little acquaintance with you ( keeping themselves for the most part among themselves ) and therefore ( say you ) there will be the lesse danger of drawing away the people . i answer , if they differ so little from you , as you would make the world beleeve , there were small cause of danger , or schisme , if they will willingly be joyned ( as you said before ) in government , and in one way of discipline with the kingdome . further , you adde , that they vent no principles , against your church , and government . i answer , indeede ▪ if they should never open a mouth to speake , yet their practise makes them different from you , both in worship and government ; and yet it may be upon better considerations , they may draw neerer to the rule hereafter● ; but for my part i leave them , as being partly ignorant of their practise . but you say , they will not admit your people to be members of their congregations . answer , indeede i doe not know that ever they have refused any ; but this much i know ; that some english people , that have the french , and dutch tongue , have , and doe goe thither to heare ; but that any should desire to goe thither to heare , that have not the language , were very absurd . sixthly , there , is ( say you ) a great reason , and necessity , of allowing them churches and places to preach , and be by them●●lves , and the reasons you yeeld , are ( 1 ) because many of them understand not english at all , and ( 2 ) for the benefit of strangers of their owne religion . to which i answer , the very same may be said concerning the english churches in holland . but further you adde , that they may well be allowed some discipline among themselves , in respect they maintaine all their owne poore . methinks ( mr. edwards ) there should be much more reason , that the english protestants , or separates , should be tolerated , for the same cause , for they maintaine all their owne poore also . and furthermore , they maintaine the poore of the church of england ; yea , in every parish where their dwelling houses stand , they pay to the poore weekely , as well as any other man . they also pay their money for the maintenance of the visited houses in the parishes where they dwell . nay , furthermore , they pay also their mony for the maintenance of the priests of england , ( the more is the pitty ) and so i feare the dutch and french doe also , yea though the priests are as popish as they were in q●eene maries time . and this is well knowne to all landlords that doe let them houses , for if they know them to be separates , and that they will not , have to doe with the priests in the pay ment of that they call dues , they make their tenant pay the more rent , for if the tenant will not the landlord must . and by this you may see , their burthens are double to other mens ; in that they must maintaine their owne poore and their owne ministers , and the church of englands also . and by this you may see ▪ that you have not ( in the least ) altered the state of the case , betweene the dutch , and french , and us , in the causes before mentioned . therefore this their first reason for toleration lies yet unanswered by you . for answer to their second reason , which ( you say ) is that they seeke no more then is granted them , in holland ; your answer to it is this , that if that be a good ground , then jewes and anabaptists may have a toleration also . to this i answer , for my part i speake for my selfe , and i suppose , that they may say as much for themselves ( in these late respects , which you have mentioned ) as the separates doe , for they maintaine their poore , and their ministers , and the poore , and the priests of the church of england , as well as we . and i thinke they are persecuted and hunted also ; but i will leave them to pleade for themselves . further , you adde , that such a toleration is not fit , neither in divinity , nor in policie . i answer , i know no true divinitie that teacheth men to be lords over the conscience ; and i thinke it is no part of godly policie , to drive the kings subjects out of the land , because they desire free liberty to worship god in the land according to his will ; the states of holland are counted politicke , and yet they esteeme it the strength of their kingdome , to grant free libertie of conscience . secondly , you say , there may be a toleration for us in holland , with much more safety to the government established , then can be here , because the people understand not our language ; and also have little , or no relation to us of kindred and friendship , &c. i answer , i must say to you , as i have said already , that there was never any danger to a kingdome , to suffer the lords people to live quietly , and enjoy their liberty . thirdly , you say , the people of the holenders are generally industrious , and mind their businesse , and keeping to what is established by their lawes , not troubling their heads so much with other points of religion . by this one may easily perceive your minde ( mr. edwards ) with the rest of your fellowes , and also know , that you are naturally derived from rome , in that you would have all men , to content themselves , with an implicit faith ▪ ; and to take for granted , what government your lawes alloweth , and what worship your inventions have hatcht ; and not to search the the scripture at all . further you add here , that the people in england are not so , especially in this city of london and great townes , you say many of the professors , are more idle , and busie ▪ bodies , tatlers also , as it is said , 1 tim. 5. 13. very wanton also in their wits , affecting novelties in religion , &c. now truly ( mr. edwards ) if you were of my mind , and were a member of such a church , that had such members in it ; you woulde be so farre from fearing , of being beguilded of them , that you would be very glad to have such birds taken out of your nest . but you are so farre from observing the rule of christ ( matth. 18. 15. ) that is to tell your brother of his fault betweene him and you that you rather walke with slanders and elamours , vilifying your owne mothers sonnes ; so that every good man may be ashamed of you . fourthly , you say , that holland tolerates us and many others , but it is more upon grounds and necessitie of worldly respects , because of the benifite of exsise towards the maintenance of warre . now ( mr. edwards ) you have utterly overthrowne your owne argument , laid downe in the beginning of your answer to this their second reason , for then you said , it was against the rule of policie ; but now you say it is their policie . and whereas you would make the case different betweene england and holland . i answer , it is not different at all ; for england hath the subjects purses to maintaine warres as well as holland ; and though it be not in exsise for victuals , yet it is in some other wayes from which the subjects of holland are freed . the next thing you affirme , is ; that your riches and strength , standeth in one way of religion . to which i answer , i thinke ( if i could understand your minde herein ) you meane the riches and strength of the priests : for i am sure the riches , and strength of the kingdome , may stand best with toleration , as it may appeare , partly by what hath been said already , for you have heard that the lords people ( whom you thus persecute ) maintaine their owne poore . and it will also be made appeare , that they pay scot , and lot , in the kingdome , in all civill respects , and are all as true subjects to the kings majesty , and are ready to doe him all faithfull service with their bodies , and estates , as any in the kingdome . but i confesse that toleration would be neither riches nor strength to the priests , for it is sore against the peoples will ▪ that they pay them any thing now ; and it will be no wonder when it shall be made to appeare , what the priests wages i● , * but that shall be done hereafter . their third reason you say is , that if they have not liberty to erect some congregations , it will force them to leave the kingdome . for answer whereof , you doe affirme ( in the first place ) that there is no neede of a toleration for them ; neither that they should leave the kingdome for conscience , and that you say will appeare by the reasons and principles which they doe agree to , which you say are these ; first , that they hold your churches true , your ministers true , ordinances true : further you say they can partake with you in your congregations in all ordinances , even to the lords supper . to which i answer , indeede here you would make the readers beleeve , that they had opened a wide gappe , ( if they should take your affirmation , without your provisall ) but you come to helpe your selfe handsomely , in that you say their condition was , that it must first be provided , that scandalous and ignorant persons must be kept backe , and cerimonies must be removed . methinks , this is a mighty great mountaine , that stands between them ▪ and you , and therefore you have small cause , to aske them wherfore they should desire , to set up churches ? fortill this mountaine be removed , they may be true to their own principles , and not go from their word , and yet never communicate with you , either in worship , or government . for first , if you keepe out all scandalous persons , out of all the churches in england , from the sacraments , and all ignorant persons ; truely then your churches will be as emptie as ours . secondly , if you should remove away all your ceremonies , ( which is the second part of your reformation , ) you could not tell how to worship ; for your whole forme and manner of worship is made of invented ceremonies . but if you can procure such a reformation , to have your church all consist of persons of knowledge , fearing god , and ●ating covetousnesse , & void of all other scandalls ( so far as we can judge by the scripture ) and that the ceremonies may be removed , and we enjoy ( as you bragge ) all gods ordinances with you , as well as in our owne churches , then you shall heare , what i will say to you , as well as the independant men . but till all this be done , you see there is still good reason , for good men , either to desire liberty , or to leave the kingdome . further , you say , some of them could take the charge of parochiall churches amongst you , upon the reformation . i answer , indeede such a reformation , which you have formerly mentioned , will hardly stand with parochiall churches . but you say , they could yeeld to presbyteriall government , by classes and synods ; so they might not be injoyned to submit to it , as jure divino . to which i answer . it seemes ( by your owne confession ) that they doe deny the presbyteriall government by classes , and synods , to be from god , as it appeares , in that you say , they will not submit to it , as iure divino , and therefore you have overthrowne your selfe ( in all this your reasoning ) with your synods and classes also ; so that still there remaines good grounds to seeke a toleration , that the saints may grow into bodies even in this land . but to grow into one body with you ( as you would have them ) while your churches body is like a leopard , and all bespotted , ( as appeares by your words ) were very absurd ; for you ●●●e affirme , that the best of your members ▪ even the professors , especially of london , and of the great townes in england ; are very f●●le ; yet i hope you will confesse , that they are the best of your members ; then if it be true ( as you say ) that you must remove in your reformation , all ignorant and scandalous persons ▪ by your grounds , you should have but a very few to make a church of as well as wee . for you must remove also all your professors , which you say are so scandalous . therefore , i should rather counsell you to repent of all your evills that you have done , and be reconciled to god the father , and christ his sonne , and separate your selves from all your wickednesse , and even come and grow up into one body with us . secondly , you say , seeing your churches , ministers , and ordinances be true , the erecting of new , and withdrawing from such congregations , can never be answered to god . i answer , here you take for granted that which you cannot prove , and it is your wisdome so to doe , for by that meanes ; you may make simple people beleeve ▪ that you are very right , except a few defects , which no man shall be freed from , while he is in this life . but now to the point ; and first , touching your churches and ministers , which you say be true , and you also say , the independant men would grant them to be true , upon a reformation , such as the word requires . i tell you for answer , that this your juggling will not helpe you , for no man is bound to take your bare word , therefore it is good you make proofe of that which you have said . but before you goe to prove your churches true , declare unto me what churches you meane ? for i ever tooke the whole land of england to be but one church , ( as it stands established by the canon laws ) and that all the parishes in the land make up but one entire body , therefore what is amisse in one parish , all the whole are guilty of , and it will be laid to the charge of the archbishops , who are the metropolitanes , or chiefe priests over the church of the land . seeing it is so , you must stand out to maintaine your church , and you neede not to trouble your selfe about your church-es for i know no dependancie you have upon any , except it be rome , according as i have told you before in the conclusion of my answer to your first tenth reason against independencie . therefore this is the church that you must maintaine , even the church of england , established by the canon laws , consisting of archbishops , diocesan bishops , with all the rest of that erew ; for this is indeed both your church and ministry , which doth appeare by your owne ground , because you affirme , that in this part lieth all the power : but ( by your owne grounds ) the whole body of the land . ( i meane of the laitie ( as you call them ) hath no power at all to reforme any abuse : therfore this clergy must needs be your church ; and thus you make your selves the head , and body , and all the rest of the land the ●ayle to follow after you . now if you can prove this to be a true church , which hath neither ground , nor footing in christs testament , you will worke wonders : but indeede such wonders have been wrought by you ; for all the world ▪ hath wondered , and runne after the beast , saying , who is like unto him ? and who is able to make warre with him ? as you may plainely see in the 13. of the reveation . therefore they that doe justifie such a church ; are such as have beene deceived by her false miracles , even by the fire which she hath made to come downe from heaven . i pray you did not fire come downe from heaven in queene maries time , and devour the saints in smithfield ; if you understand heaven in that place , as i understand it ( to be the seate of the magistrate ) you must grant the same , for they are called gods , and the children of the most high . for your forefathers did ( as pila● did ) wash their hands from the blood of the saints , and of the innocent , and turned them over , for their sentence of condemnation , to the secular power , which you made your hornes , and your heads pushed them forward to execute your bloody cruelty ; and thus you may see that fire came downe from heaven , in the sight or apprehension of men for most that beheld it thought it was just , because it was the sentence of the magistrate . and by this all men may see , that you of the clergie are the church of england , and that this clergy came from rome , and that therefore your church is derived from rome . now if you would know whence the church of rome was derived ; i conceive that her power was derived from the beast with seven heads , which rose up out of the sea , as you may read of in the thirteenth of the revelations , for there both those beasts are mentioned ▪ and also the image of the first beast , which the second beast hath caused to be made , which is even here in england amongst us ; and you may see i have proved unto you already what it is ; as you may also read in the 15. verse of that chapter , it was that to whom the beast gave a spirit , and also he gave it power that it should speake , and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast , to be killed , and hath not this image caused aboundance to be killed in england , and hath not he caused all to receive his marke , or his name , or the number of his name ; and they that have it not , may neither buy nor sell , as it is apparant by the testimonie of the scripture it selfe , and wofull experience . and is not this image the church that now you ●leade for ? which consisteth of all the priests of england ; if it be not , i pray you tell me what it is ? but if this be it ( as it appeares it is ) then these are your ministers also ; and then it hath beene proved plainely , whence this your church and ministry came . and that any of understanding should grant this church , and ministry to be a true church and ministery , would bewray great ignorance in them . further you adde , that they acknowledge the ordinances to be true . in this i doe beleeve you upon your bare word , for it is a truth , if you meane gods ordinances which you have amongst you . as first , you have the scripture but you wring it and wrest it , according to your owne devices , and make of it a nose of waxe , and a leaden rule to leane which way your minde leadeth you ; and though you ought to take that reede or rod in your hand , at all times ( if you were gods messengers ) to measure both the temple and the altar and the worshippers , ( rev. 11. 2 , yet you have not learned that skill , ( for your church and ministrie holdeth no correspondencie with that measuring line . ) but contrariwise you have taken that golden cup ▪ and filled it full of abominations ; ●ay , you have hacked it and mangled it to peeces , and made it into little lessons , which you call your epistles and gospells & they are dedicated to your saints , upon your saints-dayes ; and thus you may see though you have the scriptures ( which is the word of god ) and take upon you to unfold the mysteries thereof , yet in stead of that , you darken the truth by false glosses . secondly , you have the sacraments , even baptisme , and breaking of breade : but you pervert them both , to your owne destruction ; neverthelesse they still remaine gods ordinances , even as the golden vessells , were gods vessels , when they were in babel though bels●azar made them his qua●●ing boules ▪ yet still they remained to be gods vessels . even so did circumcision remaine gods ordinance though it was with ierobo●● . the like may be said of baptisme ▪ it still remaines gods ordinance , though it be carried away with back●sliding antichristians ( even the apostate fallen stats ) and so you may read in the eleventh of the revelation , ver. 2. that the court must be left out , and be unmeasured ; and the reason was because it was given to the gentiles , even to them that should tread downe the holy citie for 42. monethes ; this court we know , belonged to the temple ( as you may read in the 42. of ezekiel ) and had in it the ordinances belonging to the people . and although you have baptisme , and the lords supper they will not sanctifie you ; though they may be sanctified to the use of them amongst you which are gods people , according to the election of grace . and though you have some of gods ordinances , amongst you ; yet you have added unto them many ordinances of your owne devising , which doth utterly debarre the lords people , which have knowledge of them , from communicating with you in any worship . as for example , how shall any man partake with you of the word preached in your assemblies but he must needs partake also with the false calling of the priest , by which it is preached , for none else are suffered to preach amongst you , ( by your leave or approbation , ) but they that preach by that false power . and who shall receive the sacraments with you , and not justifie your devised service-booke ? for all your things are administred by that . and as all the lords ordinances ought to be sanctified by the word of god and prayer : so on the contrarie you labour to sanctifie your things , by the stinted service-booke ; and therefore the withdrawing from you , may be answered to god . further you beare the world in hand , that you have but something amongst you wanting yet , that were to be desired , and therefore you say there is no cause to leave the kingdome , nor for private men to set up true churches . answer , indeed if your church & ministers could be proved true ( which you see is a thing unpossible ) then it had beene needlesse ( as you say ) to leave the land ; but neither is your church nor ministers true , nor can the ordinances be had amongst you without sinne : and that this is the judgement of the independant men , is plaine by your former confession ; where you affirme , they will not heare of growing into one body ( or communicating ) with you before a reformation ; neither submit to your classes or presbyters , as jure divino , but in the next place you say , the setting up of devided churches , would be to the scandall of all the churches , and not the giving of scandall to one brother , but to tenne thousands of congregations . truely ( mr. edwards ) you overshoote yourselfe ( in that you make your selfe such an apparant dissembler ) for you would make men beleeve , that you desire to keepe your church and brethren unspotted , and yet you your selfe with your owne tongue , have most foulely scandalized the chiefe members of your church , making them so foule a people , that they ought not to be communicated with . * further , your words imply that so long as a man is not put upon the practise of that which is unlawfull , he may beare . i tell you againe that your whole manner is unlawfull , and therefore all the lords people , as they desire to be blessed and to be found walking in gods waves have cause to separate from your church ▪ and to practise gods ordinances among themselves , as well as they who are separated already , ( which you here you call brownists ) and the grounds and causes be so great , that they may well be justified . but you would have conscious men to consider mr. robinson , concerning circumstantiall corruptions ; you say , he shewes it is not an intolerable evill , for evill men be suffered in the church , &c. yet you confesse he affirmes it to be an evill . two things are here to be minded . first , that you would still please your selfe with this , that you have a true church ( though corrupted ) which hath beene proved contrary . secondly , that you would justifie your church by the sinnes of others . but you know what mr. robinson saith , that the government instituted by christ is not onely neglected or violated in the church of england , but the plaine contrarie to it is established by law . but you say , now supposing your reformation , it will be otherwise with england , then when he writ . but ( you may see ) it is verie plaine , that the crueltie , and wickednesse , of the church of england hath increased ever since that time . you say there is but something neglected , and you would make it the want of some law to suppresse evill men . to which i answer , that your canon lawes be evill lawes , and your lawmakers evill men , and therefore it could not stand with their principles to make lawes to suppresse evill men . thirdly , you say , that they ( whom you call independant ) live in and are members of such churches , and yet they thinke it unlawfull , to forsake them . i pray you , have any of them told you , that their churches be like the church of england ? you must make proofe thereof , for in this i will not take you upon your bare word . further , you say they want some parts of government and officers , appointed by christ , more matertally than will be in your church , upon a reformation . i answer , i have plainely proved to you : that christs church hath his government , and officers ; but your church hath neither christs government nor officers . but what it will be upon the reformation ▪ i cannot tell . but you say , they must want the ordinances , or else they must have them with instruments without ordination . i answer this is untrue as hath beene proved at large , in the answers to one of your former reasons against independancie . but you say you would have them heare with the defects in your church , and waite till god give you more light . i answer i know no●e that interrupteth you , for wee will neither meddle with your idols , nor with your gods if you would but suffer us to worship our god , after the way that you call heresie . the next thing you say is that they tell you that something may be omitted for a time , and that affirmatives binde not alwayes and that the exercise of discipline may be forborne for a time , when it will not be for edification to the church , but for destruction ; and therefore you question them for not incorporating themselves into your church , though something were more there to be desired , yet you say , there will be nothing contrary put upon them ( nor quite another thing . ) now that something may be omitted for a time , that may plainely appeare ; for a man that hath brought his gift to the altar , and there remembreth that his brother hath ought against him , must leave the offering of his gift , and goe and be reconciled to his brother , matth. 5. 23. 24. now that affirmatives binde not alwayes , is plaine ; for they binde not alwayes in cases of impossibility , but in such cases god accepteth the will for the deede . further , whereas you say , the excellencie of discipline may be forborne for a time , when it is not for edification of the church , but for destruction ; i say , true discipline , ( being rightly used ) is alwayes for the edification of the church , and never for destruction . and whereas you affirme , that there is nothing contrary put upon us by you , ( or quite another thing ; ) i answer , wee know you have none of gods ordinances , without some other thing to accompany them . fourthly , you say , that they may safely be members of your church in the reformation of you . i answer , you might well have spared this your vaine repetition till you had obtained a reformation . but the reason you have heard alleadged for their first going away granted in a letter from rotterdam . that reason still remaines ( though you say it is ceased ) and will remaine till the reformation , you have formerly promised ▪ but say you , that practise they judge themselves tied to , is founded upon a false principle ( namely ) that the power of government is given by christ to the body of the congregation . i answer i have told you before , ( in the reply to the second part of this your answer to their third reason ) & i now tell you againe , that you make your priests the head and body both ; but christ hath given the power to the church which is his body , by whose power every officer , and member thereof , doth move , and doe their severall offices . fifthly , there is , say you a medium , between persecution and a publike toleration ; a middle way , say you , betweene not suffering them to live in the land , and granting them liberty . i answer , this is a very true thing , for pharaoh would have beene willing , that the children of israel , should have stayed in egypt , and made him bricke , but he would not suffer them to goe into the wildernesse , to offer sacrifice . but if pharoah had beene willing to have succoured the children of israel , he would have commanded his taskemasters not to lay burthens upon them , that they could not beare ; but he did not doe so , and therefore their bricke-making turned to persecution , even as your injunctions and penall lawes doe here in england , and you binde them up with a pretence of his majesties command , which makes the burthen very mighty . by this it is plaine , that no good man can live in england without persecution , even at this day . but you would have them to have a third way , for you say persons may live in the land , and injoy their lands and liberties , and not be compelled to professe , and practise , things against their conscience . i pray you ( mr. edwards ) bethinke yourselfe now , how untruly you speake and whether you doe not looke one day to give an account , for your words ; for you know that no man can live in this land , and enioy his lands and liberty , but he shall be forced to worship according to the custome of the nation . nay , children that be but sixteene yeares of age , though ignorant , and scandalous in their lives , are forced to receive the sacrament of the lords supper , though it be to their utter condemnation . further you adde , that if upon petition to the parliament , the papists should have the statutes repealed , which injoyne them to come to your church , yet say you , the granting the papists a publike toleration , for their religion , would be quite another thing , in as much as you say though the papists were the first in p●t●tioning for the former , yet they move not for the latter . for answer to this ▪ i tell you ; first , that for granting the papists publike exercises will not much crosse your principles , for they and you are naturall brethren . secondly , for that they move not for the latter ( as you say : ) they neede not for they injoy it without moving and till this parliament , none hath disturbed them for many yeares . but further , you adde ▪ that so you judge that the independant men may live in the land freely , and injoy their liberties and estates , ( but you have your clause whereby you still crosse all your own tale ; your clause is that it must be ) by comming to your churches , and enjoying the ordinances . whereas you say so you judge , it presupposeth that the papists doe come to your churches , by what comes after , that it must be by comming to your churches , and enjoying the ordinances . indeede the papists may come to your churches , and injoy your ordinances , for first they were their ordinances ; for when you apostated from rome , you carried the romish traditions with you , even as your forefathers in their apostacie from christ iesus , carried some of his ordinances with them ; so you retaine something of gods to make your owne ware passe in sale , and have patched you up a bundle of worship borrowing ●lso some iewish and he●●henish ceremonies to make up your pa●ke ; and will you be so kinde to suffer men to live in the land , if they will but submit to this worship and promise them they shall never be compelled , to professe or practise any more ? indeede you are very liberall but it hath beene often said already , ( and you have said it yourselfe ) that the independant men , cannot of conscience communicate with you before a reformation : therefore if this be the medium you have ( betweene leaving the land and toleration ▪ ) even that they must submit to your worship , you might have bequeathed this legacie to some that would accept of it , and give you thankes for the lord hath bequeathed liberty to his s●●●ts and servants , and hath purchased it at a deare price ; even that they should be freed from all egyptian bondage ; and hath commanded them to stand fast in that liberty , wherein he hath made them free : and whether they must obey gods commands , or your counsell be judge your selfe . six●●y , you say , if the former answers will not satisfie , but that they must needs be in a church fellowship , as now they are then ( you say ) you you will shew them away , according to their owne principles of a visible church . for answer whereof i must tell you , that fallacies , and false conclusions upon mens words , ( without bringing their conditions ) can satisfie no man concerning the matter in hand ; but it may satisfie all men of your evill minde , that you still labour to turne away the truth as it may appeare ; by the way you here have chalked them out , to walke in ; which is that because it is their principle ( say you ) that a few saints joyned together in a covenant , have power ; therefore you imply that there should never neede a greater addition to them . * this you may know crosseth the whole scripture as the very prophesies of the church under the new testament that is to say , that a little one shall become a thousand , and a great one a strong nation , esay 60. 22. and that they should grow up as the calves of the stall , mal. 4. 2. not onely in greatnesse , but also in number : and especially when the lambe overcommeth , that is even when the saints overcome , by the blood of the lambe , and the word of their testimony , not esteeming their lives to the death . therefore you might have saved your schollership , when you went about to teach them , to make churches in houses , and also to come to your church , to the word , prayer , and sacraments ▪ for they have not so learned christ ; to come one part of the day to worship before the idols , and to stand another part before god , for if they should doe so , the lord saith , ( ezek. 44. 13. ) they should not come neere him , neither to doe the office of the priest , nor to come neare the holy things , but that they should beare their shame , and their abomination . further , you might have saved your labour in teaching them , to make family church es : for god hath directed them what to doe in their families . and it is not the practise of gods people , to shut out from their prayers , and holy duties , them that are of their family ▪ for god gave his law to abraham for another end ( namely ) that he should teach it his family , and by so doing , traine up members in his family , for christs family . further , you might have spared your care taken to shew a way for maintenance , for those men among us , that are schollers bred , for if you can find no better maintenance for them , then to come and be lecturers amongst you ( as you would have them ) and to live in hope of the gifts of the dead ; that is no good provision : for , for want of those shooes ▪ men may goe long barefooted ▪ seeing they cannot ( by your owne confession ) doe that of conscience till there be a reformation . but you might rather have perswaded your parish priests to have bequeathed some of their large revenewes unto them : for whether they have parsonage or vicarage their pole-money comes in so thicke to them and their followers , that it would make any sober minded man or woman to wonder how they can consume it : for besides their ordinary tithes or maintenance ▪ which is the principall , they have many other petty aues , which they require of every one of the kings subjects , & they are not so reasonable as his majestie , which is contended with pole-money from his subjects , from 16. yeares old , and upward , but they will have a share out of him that is borne without life ( as it will plainely be proved ) for if a dead child be borne into the world , they will be paid for reading a dirge over it , before it shall be laid in the earth , and they will be apt to inferre , that that their deere brother is departed in the faith , though it be the childe of theeves and murderers , and the like . further , they will yet have another patrimony for the birth of that childe , for before the mother dare goe abroade , shee must have their blessing ; that the sun shall not smite her by day , nor the moone by night ; for which blessing of theirs , they must have an offering , and the like they require for all the children that be borne into this world , though there live not one of sixe to be men or women . but for as many of them as doe live , they enlarge their revenewes , for , if they live to come to the sacrament of the lords supper , then they must pay their offerings yearely to the priest , though the bread and wine be provided at the parishes charge . further , if they live to enter into the state of matrimon● , then they must be joyned together by a priest , for which worke of his he must have a large offering . and these men be not content to take money where there is money ( as the king is ) but they will have these ( which they call dues ) of him that liveth of the very almes of the parish , whereas the king taketh not a penny of any that receive almes . then if we consider their exa●●ion how they oppresse the people , by their cruell forcing of them to pay so much as they demand , ( though it be contrary to all law or equity ) it will cause us to wonder at the hardnesse of their hearts for rather then they will abate any thing of what they demand they will force poore people even to pawne their cloathes ; for i am able to prove that they doe demand of poore people before they can have a childe ( that is but fourteene , or fifteene yeares of age ) buried in one of the out-church-yards of the great parishes ( which land is the free gift of the dead , for the helpe of the poore , even as creplegates new church-yard , or algat●s , ros●mary lane , or white chappell ; mile-in greene , ( or others the like ; ) before ( i say ) they can have such a child buried there , it will cost the poorest parent , seven or eight shillings : nay , i have knowne when they have distrusted paiment , that they have affirmed , that they would not bury them , except they had their money paid before hand : nay , when any poore man bringeth out of the remote places of the city any corps to bedlam ( which is the cheapest place that i know ) ye when all things else is discharged , even as , bearers wages , grave●●●gers wages , and the ground paied for also ; yet they must be constrained to have a twelve-penny priest , to say something over the grave , and he will grudge if he have not more than a snilling ( though he say but a few words without the booke ) when ( perhaps ) all the people that be'left alive in the family , be not worth a shilling . furthermore , if any poore man have a necessitie to worke , upon one of their saints-dayes , then mr. paritor must come , and have a grote , for citing him to the court , but if he appeare not , he must be presented , and for not paying fees , he shall be excommunicated , and he shall never be blessed in again , but ( though he be the poorest man in the kingdome ) the price of his blessing will be a noble at the least : but if he happen to die an excommunicant , then his friends must give money to absolve him after he is dead , or else he shall not be buried in the consecrated earth : but if his friends will goe to the office , and give but a matter of five pound for his absolution , after he is dead ; then he shall be buried in the consecrated ground ; and they will also affirme he died in the faith of christ , ye though he were excommunicated for notorious sinne , and lived and died ▪ obstinately in it . it is a plaine case therefore , that these men are a greater plague to this land ▪ then the naturall locusts of egypt , for they ate up the greene things , but these eate up both greene and dry . nay , further , i conceive they are more prejudiciall to the common wealth , than the frogges that came up upon the land of egypt , for they entred into the oven , and into the kneading trough : and wee reade not that they ascended higher than the kings bed , and the beds of his servants ; but these are exalted above the chimney tops , to catch a smoke-penny from every poore mans house . thus you see the mighty revenewes of the priests : if i had but time to tell you of the things which i know ( even of the extent of their revenewes ) what is gained unto the generality of priests , by granting of licenses to midwives , and to schoolemasters , with divers of their own officers , such as paritors , sumners , & pursevants , with a number of that ranke , which have strange names that i know not , it would ( as i said before ) make all men wonder , how it is devoured ▪ for they must be freed from all taxations , and have their houses rent free , and many times eate their bread at other mens tables , and yet ( for the most part ) they die poore men , and farre in debt , and leave behinde them , both wives and children , destitute of calling and maintenance , which is a plaine case to me , that the hand of god is upon this generation , in cursing that which they would have blessed . and therfore i will confesse that i was overseene ( in the entrance into this discourse ) when i moved you to perswade these men to bequeath some thing to their brethren , ( that are schollers bred ; ) for i did not consider , that though they received much , yet they had but little to give , because it is not blessed for increase : but i should rather have comforted you , with giving you knowledge , that god hath provided maintenance for his ministers ; as well as for his people , that they neede not bow to you for a morsell of bread ; for god taught his apostles to worke with their hands , as paul saith , that his hands ministred to his necessities , and those that were with him ; acts 20. 34. not that paul might not receive of the people carnall things , for he declareth the contrary in another scripture , and i hope , all the lords people will confesse that the labourer is worthy of his hire , and that it is their duty to make them partakers ▪ of their carnall things , of whom they receive spirituall things . further , you are carefull to have them sober , and peaceable , and not to preach and speake against what is established by law * indeede ( i must tell you ) in my judgement , no man can make way for a true reformation , except hee declare what is evill , before he shew what is good . further you say , you suppose subscriptions will not be injoyned to formes of government and discipline . here you seeme to yeeld that your formes of government and discipline be not of god ; then if there be no injunction , none will obey , but if injunctions , none will obey for conscience ; for what good man can yeeld to an injuction that is not of god , so then , ( you may see ) your injunctions have beene the way and meanes to breed and bring forth a world of hypocrites , as one may easily see by the timeservers of your church . but you say , that without a toleration we may injoy in a secret way our church fellowship . indeede ( m. edwards ) we have learned that lesson already ▪ for christ hath taught us , that we shall fly into the wildernesse , * and that the earth shall helpe us * but sometimes it proves to the danger of our lives , and alwayes to the danger of our liberty ; as it may appeare by the practise herein london , for though wee meete never so privately , and peaceably , yet such cattle as your selfe ▪ are alwayes bleeting in the eares of your parish officers , and constables , with your other officers , even till you move the lord major himself to be your drudge , and as your horne , which you push forward for the destruction of our bodies , when he hath laid violent hands on them , for it is evident that it hath beene to the losse of some of their lives ; and this is the liberty we have in this kingdome and all through the instigation of you priests . but you say , though some of the more sober and conscientious ministers and people could use it better , yet the brownists and anabaptists , and weake brethren would be apt to scandall : and therefore to avoid scandall , you would i●si●●ate that we are bound to neglect the whole forme of church worship . i told you before , and i tell you now , that you are afraid to have your owne glory ecclipsed and by this all men may see , ( and by all your formers answers also ) that you would have us to enjoy in this kingdome , neither ordinances , nor conscience . the next thing you lay downe , is the judgement of an antient father ; but indeede he is as sound in the faith as your selfe , for hee would have men to joyne to churches that have no power . * and this being the sixth answer that you have given to their third reason , you entreat them to lay all your sixe together , and to consider s●●ly , whether god require , unlesse they have a toleration to leave the kingdome to runne many hazards , and dangers , when as they may enjoy , so much at home , without a toleration , as you say you have opened to these sixe answers . to ●ch i answer , when they are laid all six together , they make but a peece of an answer to one of their reasons , and this piece of your answer is stuffed full of falicies , as hath beene already proved , and may further appeare , by the conclusion of all here , when you say they may have so much at home , for it hath beene proved already , that they can have nothing at home , either in respect of liberty , or worship ; ( but what they must have by stealth ; ) for when they would injoy the ordinances of god , which are iewels , which you would have none to have but your selves , that so you might seeme glorious ; if any ( i say ) will presume to borow the iewels , and carry them away , you will pursue after them ; and you know it was the practise of the egyptians of old , for they would have suffered the israelites to have gone away empty , and left their cattle behinde them , so that they might have had nothing with them to have offered sacrifice withall ; and i pray you were not the southsayers the cause of this ? by withstanding moses and aaron , against the children of israel , even by the false figures which they cast before the eyes of pha●aoh , to harden phar●ahs heart , even as you priests doe at this day . and thus i have laid together your sixe reasons , and weighed them ; but one truth is sufficient to over weigh them all . but yet you have also a seventh answer which is by it selfe : and it is this , that if they will not be satisfied ( say you ) without setting up churches ; it is better they should get out of the kingdome . besides , you would have all others that be of this minde , to leave the land , and goe to new-england , that cannot be satisfied , but that they must erect churches to the disturbing of the peace of three kingdomes . truely ( mr. edwards ) you shew your selfe a bloody minded man , that would have the innocent suffer for the faults of them that are guilty . was not the sending of your masse-bookes into scotland the cause of the disturbance ? and hath it not appeared plaine enough to the parliament and to the scots , before the parliament sate , that the bishops and priests were the cause of the disturbance ? i doubt not but you have read both the scotish intentions , and their demands , with their declarations , which have plainely manifested , who and what was the cause of the disturbance , it was not the meeting of a handfull of the lords people , which ever sought and do seeke the good and wellfare of the three kingdomes , with the life & happy reigne of their soveraigne lord the king , who alwayes sue unto god for the peace of the kingdome , in whose peace they may enjoy peace : but contrariwise , it plainely appeares , that it was you and your fathers house which caused this variance . but say you , it will be no great harme for many of them to goe away . i answer , it is like you apprehend the judgements of god comming upon you , and you thinke to be eased , by driving out the lords people in haste . further , you say , you would rather goe to the uttermost parts of the earth to live in a meane and hard condition , rather than you would disturbe the peace or good of three kingdomes . for answer , to this i must tell you , i would you had considered this before you had done it . but now seeing god of his mercy hath reconciled them againe , it may be the wisedome of you and your fellowes , to depart unto rome , that gods true religion may be set up here in england without popish injunctions , that so the last errour be not worse than the first ; for you say , it is better that one perish than vnity ; therefore ( in my judgement ) it is better that they should runne the hazard , who have occasioned the strife . further , you plead for your selfe and for hundreds of your brethren , that you have borne the brunt of the times , and yet you doe professe that you will submit to what is established by law , because you hope it will be blessed and glorious . i tell you , you are even like isachers asse , and so are the rest of your fellowes , even willing to stoope downe between two burdens , because ease is good : for the law indeede makes every thing seeme glorious ; but for any brunt that you have borne in these last times ; i thinke it hath not over-loaded you ; for i have not heard that you have beene at two pence cost , to maintaine the lords people in prison ; and therefore you are very unlike to obadiah , for instead of hiding of the lords people , you cry out upon the parliament to have them hunted ; and this is a great brunt indeed , ( if it be well considered ) and it is doubt it will cost you deare , ( by that time you have paid your reckoning ) except god give you repentance . but you further expresse , that you would not set up true churches against a true church . i answer , neither would these independant men , i hope , for those things which god teacheth his servants to doe , be not against the truth , but for the truth , neither can they be any cause of divisions , or heart-burnings , betweene either ministers or people . and thus you may see , and behold , that your seventh answer ( to their third reason ) that you have now left alone , is a noune adjective in respect of proving any thing that you brought it for . you say their fourth reason is , that if the ministers and churches be not tolerated , they are afraid that in time they shall draw most of the good people out of the land after them . and for answer to this , you say , you suppose they rather hope than feare it ; and that , ( say you ) plainely sheweth , they have a good conceit of themselves , and of their owne way . for answer to you , i say , that this your answer is but a supposition , neither do i know whether it be their reason , for methinks it sounds somewhat like nonsense , but your supposition will not prove them to have a good conceit of themselves , neither of any way of their owne ; for it is the way of the lord iesus christ , that they plead for . secondly , you say , you feare too , but not as they doe , but your feare is , least toleration should draw away many good people . i pray you trouble not your selfe , too much , for if there be no toleration , the good people will flye from you , and stand a farre off , and waite for the reformation which you have all this while promised . but now at last you seeme to make a doubt of any reformation at all , when you say , if the ceremontes and liturgie stand in full force * which presupposeth , that you conceive they will stand still ; but no doubt , but if they be setled by law , they will seeme glorious to you , although they are in themselves romish traditions . further , you adde , if these stand in force , and churches tolerated , they will make brave worke in a short time . i answer , you are so fearefull least the lords people should enter into the citie of promise , that it is very like you never intend to enter in your selfe ; and that makes you gather up your hopes , in the midst of all your feares : setting a worke your confidence , that god will preserve many judicious , and advised christians from your way ; and therefore you counsell them , to whom you speake , to let them be well shipped , and a reformation in government and ministers ; and then you say your feare will be over . truely methinkes you patch your matter together very disorderly : for you have many times said , that upon a reformation they would communicate with you . but now you would have them well shipt , which i thinke is the reformation which you desire : as may appeare by the confused speech which you make afterwards ; for you say ; when there is a reformation amongst you in government and ministers , that feare is over with you ; and your reason is , because when that which first bred these men * is taken away , which ( say you ) was the violent pressing of ceremonies , and the casting out of good ministers ; and many notorious persons being suffered in the church of england without all censures , shall be removed ; many ( say you ) will not be bred , and others will be satisfied , and some godly painefull ministers of the church of england would out-preach them , and out-live them . to this i answer , you seemed in the beginning of your answer , to make them proud persons , or conceited of themselves but now methinkes , i heare you boast very much of your selfe , and others of your church . but i thinke it may be very true : for you cannot chuse but out-preach them , if you preach them out of the kingdome . and it is very like you may out-live them also ; if you can but banish them into some hard country , or else get them into some stinking prison , as you and the rest of your fathers house have done very lately . but further you adde , that you and your fellowes , will compare with them for all excellencies and abilities . me thinkes it had beene more credit for you to have given your neighbours leave to speake . but now you have advanced your selfe , you labour to cast them downe , for you say , you knew many of them long before they fell to this way , but you have not seene any of them better , nor more profitable , for you say , whilst they were in the church of england , they preached often , and now seldome . i answer , it is very like they dare not tell such as you when they preach , that cry out to the parliament to disturbe their meetings . further , you say , they goe looser in their apparell and haire . i answer , i know some indeede that have beene constrained to change their apparell for feare of persecution , and ( it may be ) the haire you were offended at , might be some perriw●gge , which some of them have beene constrained through feare to put on , to blinde the eyes of the bishops blood-hounds , when they have come to take them . further , you exclaime against them , that they take lesse care for publike things that concerne the glory of god , and the salvation of mens soules . i answer , if their care be so little , you may wonder , what makes them to take this paines , and care , to travell out of a farre countrey , to sue to the parliament , by humble petition , for freedome of conscience , and liberty for gods publike worship , which are things most concerning the glory of god , and the salvation of mens soules . further , you accuse them , that their spirits are growne narrow , like their churches , and that they grow strange , reserved , and subtill ; further , you say , in a word , they minde little else , but the propagation of their independant way . for answer whereof i say to you , that it is no marvell though their spirits grow narrow , towards such an adve●sarie as your selfe , and great cause they have to be strange towards you , and reserved and subtill also . but whereas you say their churches be narrow : i say they are even like the way to ●e●v●n or the gate that leadeth unto life , which is so narrow , that such as you can hardly enter in thereat . but if their greatest care be ( as you say ) to set up the independant way * ( which is the way of god : ) this still crosseth your former slander of them , that they little minde the publike good , and salvation of mens soules . but that this is true ( namely , that they minde little else but the propagation of their independant way ) you bring the protestation protested to witnesse , which testimony maketh them peaceable men , because they desire to meddle with no mans businesse but their owne . and if they minde little else but to set up the independant way , then it will also crosse your following speech , ( which you say , you speak from your conscience and experience ) that never any of them , had so large a spirit for good , after they fell into that way , nor tookesuch care ( you say ) for the propagation of the gospell , and preaching the word to men without i tell you , indeede if they did not take care to preach the word to men without , they would never come to preach amongst you , much lesse would they then sue for libertie so to doe , ( as the welsh ministers have done ) if they had not a desire to informe the ignorant , in those truths that god hath revealed to them . and therefore you may see in your accusations against them , you are proved a very slanderer , and have taken upon you the office of sathan , the old accuser of the brethren . but you conceive god never honoured them so much afterward . but seeing it is but your conception , it matters not ; for if they were active for god , and did famously and worthily before they entred into the way of god , i am sure they could not but be more active afterwards ; for when a man is in a journey ( especially if he know or conceive himselfe to be out of the way ) he goeth on heavily till he meeteth with some directer , either to informe him that he is in the right way , or to direct him how he shall get into it ; and being setled in his right way , hee goeth on more cheerefully , and actively than hee could doe in the time of his doubting ; even so it must needs be with these men , as i said before . againe , you say , that the men that hold those principles of separation , god did never honour much . i answer , it seemes you thinke gods thoughts are as your thoughts , and because you seeke for the praise of men and have it , and a few men honour them : and because christs flocke is a little flocke ▪ therefore you imagine they are not honoured of god , which is very carnall reasoning . ● . but as you have slandered the men all this while ; so now you here slander their way ( and principles ) which way is the way of god , and whose principles are gods truthes ; yet ( you say ) there is such a malignitie cleaves to it , even as doth to the episcopacie . this is a very great slander , to compare godswayes to the wayes of sathan , in saying there is such a malignity cleaving to it , which alters mens spirits , and makes their hearts worse ; and yet you here confesse , that many of them continue good in the maine . thus much for your fourth reason . you say , their fifth reason is , that this is no other but envy in the ministers , that makes them against toleration , because they feare their people will desert from them , and come to us , being so pure in ordinances , and churches ; and thus you say the protestation protested speakes . your answer to this reason is , 1. that it is not out of envie , but you hold their practise sinfull and unwarrantable to separate from your churches , and to erect such congregations , and therefore you say , you speake against it , and that you here promise to make good in a following discourse . for answer to this , i must tell you , that it is not your denying it to be out of envie , that will cleare you , for there is nothing appeares more plainer , than that envie against the truth , and the professors thereof , was the cause of your writing against toleration . and that it is through feare your people will desert , is plaine , by your owne confession in your fourth reason ; where you say , that if the liturgie , and ceremonies , stand in force , and toleration be granted , they will make brave worke in a short time ▪ and yet you hope some judicious christians ( as you say ) will be kept from their way . but in that you here say , you hold the practise sinfull and unwarrantable you have made that part of your judgement knowne already before ; but your judgement was grounded upon no true principle ; and therefore it hath beene already proved to be emoneous . and whereas you say , you will make it good to be sinfull in a following discourse : i answer , if you can but make men beleeve this , you will worke a wonder . but i know it is impossible , for you to make good your promise , and therefore i cannot expect performance . now to cleare your selfe . 2. you say , it cannot be counted envie in ministers , to be unwilling to have their flocks , and people fall from them . i answer , by so saying , you rather confirme their reason than remove it , ( namely ) that it was your feare of the de●erting of your people . but for you to insinuate , that the people that be called out of a way of sinne , and brought into the way of grace , and liberty ▪ be stol●●● away , and tempted away by strangers ( as you would make it ) concluding that it is as tolerable for children to forsake their parents , renouncing the 〈◊〉 that bare them , and the ●●pp●s that gave them sucke ▪ throwing dirt in the face of father and mother , as it is for a man to forsake idolatrous worship ; this is an unjust comparison , and crosseth the whole tenor of the scripture . now you would make this your owne case , for you allude to your spirituall children , who ( say you ) are the fruit of your labours . i pray you , how can you count the parish of st. elens your spirituall children , seeing you are there but an hireling ; and as you have not begotten them to the faith , so you have not taken the charge of them , to watch over them as a spirituall father , and you will onely preach to them so long as any will pay you wages , but no longer ; how then have you converted them to god ? from what have you converted them ? or what have you converted them too ? have you turned them from serving dumbe idols , to serve the living god ? i have heard of no great change of them , nor of any other where you have preached ; you found them in the church of england , and you found them christians , ( in your owne judgement ) and you know they were baptized , when you came to them ; and in the same church where you found them , there you leave them ; i pray you , how have you begotten them to god ? you found them under a false power , submitting to a false worship , and you justifie them as men begotten to god , and you justifie their standing there . thus doe you sow pillowes of flatteries under their elbowes . but you neede not to feare any mans comming to steale your disciples away by night , as the jewes gave out falsely of christs naturall body , for that was but a lie ; therefore let no man presume to lie by their example . but you say therefore you ought to watch against us , ( and ought not to sleepe ) least they should be stolne * away . i answer , so did the jewes watch the naturall body of christ and yet he by his power raised himselfe , and also departed from them ; even so by the same power will he raise from the death of sinne , many that are amongst you , and will cause them to separate themselves from your false worshipping , and from you that are false worshippers , and he will tell them where he feedeth his sheepe , and causeth them to lie downe at noone . * neither can you cleare your selfe by saying , you ●i●ty them , and love them , and would not have such a sword as a tolerátion put into their hands ( as you are pleased to say ) to hurt them , though some amongst them ( say you ) might perhaps use it better . i pray you feare not this , ( which you here call an error on the right hand ) but rather feare your church , if ( as you say ) your liturgie and ceremonies stand still in force , which ( you say ) were the causes that bred the separates . * i tell you , if the sa ne cause remaine you may justly feare , it will take the same effect ; you have also as great cause to feare the prophanenesse and atheisme , which is seated in the hearts of most of your people , but onely that you blesse your selfe , in hope that all ignorant and scandalous persons shall be driven out . but i pray you tell me , whither doe you intend to drive them ? if you leave them anywhere in the land , they will be still of your church : except you will make you a new church : but if you should drive them out of the land , you would leave many places of the land uninhabited ; for the generalitie of the people ( in most parts ) be ignorant , and prophane ; and thus you may see your selfe in a great streight , and therfore you have great cause to feare . further , you say , the author would intimate that the honest soules are with them , and would be for their way ; but as for those that are against their way and toleration , they are not such honest soules . if this author be the protestation protested , you have wrested his words , for he hath not said they are not such honest soules neither hath he entred into judgement against any . but further , ( you say ) you would have them know that the honest soules are not onely with them : for in the church of england ( say you ) there ever have beene , and are honest ministers and people , that have rejected our way , and any that fell to it , nay the greatest nonconformists , and most able in that way ( you say ) have written the most against our way , and laboured upon all occasions to preserve the people from falling to us . for answer whereof , i must tell you , that the ministers , and people , were never the honester for ' rejecting of that way , ( which hath beene proved to be the way of god ) though they were the greatest nonconformists in the world : for it is not our way properly , but the gift of the father , which he hath given us , to walke in ; and surely , it is no signe of honesty to commend the saints in their infirmities , or to condemne them in their workes of pietie ; i say , it is no signe of an honest soule to speak evill of such a holy way : i tell you , i take hugh latimer to be an honest soule , though he have declared both by word and writing against such as you ; and affirmed , that a lay man fearing god , is much more fit to understand the holy scripture , then a proud and arrogant priest ; yea , then the bishop himselfe be hee never so great and glistering in all his pontificalls : and such honest soules ( though they are not of the clergie , but of those whom you call the layetie : ) are the fittest men on the earth to make churches , and to chuse their owne ministers ( as i said before ) though they be trades-men ; and such as these have dependancie upon christ alone , whose way is properly the sincere way of god . and as for any that have writ against this way ( or against those who walke uprightly in it ▪ ) it will not make much for their account , for that part of their worke shall burne ( as well as yours ) though they may be saved : and as for these authors which here you bring , which have beene so carefull ( as you say ) to keepe the people from falling into that way ; i have reade some of their bookes , and found the most of them , prophesie sad things against he church of england , except she repent . their sixth reason ( you say ) is , that they are good men , and men of great gifts , and therefore they should be tolerated to have such churches , it is pitty they should leave the land , and wee loose their prayers . indeede ( mr. edwards ) this may be some other , mans reason , on their behalfe , but i hardly beleeve , that they lived so farre from good neighbours , that they must thus set forth their owne praise . but for answer to this reason , in the first place ; you say , the better men they be , and the more able , the worse , to set up separated churches . to this i answer , that i ever conceived by the scripture , that those that christ ordained , to plant his churches were good men , as it was said of barnabas , that he was a good man * and the very like was said of stephen * and therefore me thinks you are shreudly mistaken . but further , you say , they will the more indanger the peace of the kingdome , and make the schismes greater . i answer , if it be good and able men that indanger the peace of the kingdome , you may doe well to perswade the parliament , to keepe still in your church , all the dumb and drunken priests : for they are bad enough , and unable to doe good , and yet of my knowledge , they are very able to disturbe the peace , and to breed strife , and to bring gods judgements upon the land , which is able to make a greater schisme than you are a ware of . secondly , you say , for their prayers , you have the benefit of them , as well when they are absent , as present , and some of them have sa● ( say you ) they prayed more for england when out , of it than in it . indeede if they did so , they did well , for that was their duty ; but i suppose you ( for your particular ) had little benefit of those prayers , and that , because god hath hardened your heart , even against them , and all good men . thirdly , for these their prayers you have rewarded them with an accusation ( namely ) that they left the kingdome , when it was in greatest danger , and in most neede of helpe , and provided for themselves to keepe in a whole skinne . i answer , if they did evill in it , that evill is to be passed by ; for it is very probable , that they did know that the great canons were already made , and that they were mightily charged , and overcharged , as it may appeare by their shivering in pieces : but if they had held to have beene shot off ; they might easily perceive , that they might beate holes in their owne skins , as well as in other mens , and they seeing the plague before hand , might be borne with to hide themselves . but you say you stood without them here in the gappe , and prevailed with god . i answer , it may be conceived , that they prevailed with god , who praye ▪ d so much for england , when they were out of it , for god will not heare sinners , * therefore you cannot expect that god should heare you , so long as you justifie the abominations of your bespotted church ; and you know moses prevailed for egypt , when he was out of the city . * but you say it is better to want their company , than to buy it at so deare a rate as a toleration ▪ and you say you question not , but the king donte will doe well enough without them . is it possible , that you should enjoy the benefite of the prayers of those that you so much sleight , and set so little by their company , that rather then they shall have liberty , to worship god in a peaceable way ( by your will ) they should depart the kingdome , when it is proved , by the word of god , that gods servants are the strength & glory of the kingdome : for even as the prophets were the charets and horsemen of israel , so are they that feare the lord ▪ a support to the kingdome and common-wealth wherein they live . but as for your kingdome of priests , it shall neither stand without them , nor with them , for though the prophets sought to heale babel , yet it could not be healed , for your hornes shall be knocked off ; and methinks i heare the decree gone forth , that your kingdome is devided , and therefore you have neede , to set downe your resolution , that it shall not long stand , but the kingdome of england may safely stand with toleration . fourthly , you say for this objection ▪ of being good men , you will answer it at large in another tractate , wherein ( you say ) you shall minde men of many dangers that may arise to them from good and eminent men ; and further , you say you will fully shew what little strength is in that reason , and cleare also many things in reference to that objection . i answer , when i see this performed , i will take it into consideration , and then you may heare more of my minde ; in the meane while , i rest in the scriptures ; which satisfie me , that good men ever bring a blessing . the next thing you bring is this question ( namely ) whether conscientious men , who agree with you in the maine in points of doctrine , and practise , may be tolerated , and spared , in some things wherein they differ from that which is commonly received . indeede you have made divers answers to this already for it was before your owne question , in some of your reasons alledged against them , where you affirme , that you justifie much , both bearing and forbearing , and have also set the counsell of ancient fathers before them , to teach them to heare with others both in points of doctrine and practise ; wherein they may something differ from that which is commonly received . but here further , you adde a more large answer , that you still say it is your judgement ▪ that there should be bearing in many differences of opinions and practise , so as christians ought not to judge nor censure one another , nor refuse communion and fellowship , by ●ot admitting men into their churches , and to the ordinances . you have seemed ( all this while ) to be afraid least they should admit too many into their churches , and now you seeme to say , it is the fault of the independant churches to deny ▪ communion to many saints ▪ for some differences in judgment , about church-government and orders . now if this be true ( as you say it is ) they are so farre from stealing away your members ▪ that they will not receive them into fellowship , if there be differences in judgment , * for which you here seeme to blame them ▪ and therefore i think you would have them open the mouthes of their churches wider , even as wide as yours . but the scripture hath declared , that the gates of the holy city , are of an equall widenesse , for they are never shut , rev. 21. 25. and yet they are so well watched by the angels of god , even the ministers of christ jesus , that there shall be no uncleane thing suffered to enter in thereat , &c. * here you may see if any of you attempt to come in ( who are so ignorant and scandalous and spotted ( as you say they be ) they shall not be suffered amonst us ; for indeede they are fit for no society , but the society of your fathers house : yet ( i say ) if any of these doe creep● in , it is through the neglect of the portor , which the lord hath set to watch , or else it must needs be by their cunning transfiguring themselves to be that which they are not . but ( you say ) you would not have men forced to change their mindes , and opinions , by casting them violently out of the ministry and church , which ( you say ) was the practise of many in these late times , and hath caused , so many schismes and strifes amongst you . well , here all men may take notice , that it was the cruelty of the clergie , that caused the shismes and strifes , by forcing men to change their mindes , and not the practise of the separation ( as you here acknowledge ) therefore in this confession you have crossed the tenor of many of your other arguments , as that the separates have caused strife in the three kingdomes , and that they had made the rents and schismes , which now you acknowledge to be done by them ( that force men to change their mindes ) which are the clergie of england . further , you say , that you approve not of such practises , but desire to be a follower , and lover of the wayes of peace and communion , with any who agree in the maine , and have something of god and christ in them . i answer , if you approve not of such practises , i hope you will not hereafter be an occasion to move magistrates to force men to change their mindes , and so justifie your selfe in that you condemne in others , for you confesse your selfe , that though these independant mens spirits be growne narrow ( even closed up from you ) yet they continue good in the maine ; * and then sure they have something of god , and of christ in them . you say further , that the practise of the antient fathers , that pleaded for bearing , are infinitely pleasing to you . i answer , if they be infinitely pleasing to you , i hope you will never be unpleased againe , with any of the lords servants , about keeping of dayes , which you say was the diffierence betweene these fathers * moreover , you seeme to inferre , that because siprian ( whom you confesse , erred in the point of rebaptizing ) would not condemne them , who were of a contrary opinion : that therefore men may be tolerated in their differences of opinions . but here you have brought an erring father ( by your owne confession ) to perswade us to keepe communion with those that are contrary minded ; but the apostle exhorteth us to labour to be of one minde , that we may walke by one rule , but if any be otherwise minded , we ought to waite till god reveile further , and not to force him to be of our minde , till he hath faith in himselfe , grounded upon the word of god . but that ground which you have ( that men should be tolerated in their differences of opinions ) is built upon the sayings of this father ciprian . but presently you come with your provisall , which hath quite altered the case , your provisall is ( they may be tolerated ) so long as they keepe communion with the church , and submit to the discipline and orders , and be peaceable , and not speake against what is established by common consent nor practise to the scandall and contempt of the magistrate and church . i answer , this is but even a crossing of your owne speech againe , for this constraining of men to yeeld to whatsoever is established by common consent , is but a forcing of men to change their minds ; which you said before , was the cause of schismes and strifes , and though you approve not of it in others , yet ( it seemes ) you could freely practise it your selfe , as may plainely appeare by what you speake hereafter , which is the very same thing which you have often spoke already ; that is , if a few men ( halfe a dozen , or halfe a score ) refuse communion with your church , and vent opinions every where , to the disturbing of the kingdome , and drawing disciples after them , though they were ministers of gold , and had the tongues of men and angels , they should not be tolerated . now you have strucke up the stroke , but it will not serve your turne ; for this your vaine insinuation ( that they disturbe the kingdome and draw disciples after them , ) ha●h beene many a time disproved already , because it hath beene oftentimes repeated by you , to fill up your matter ; nay your owne words have disproved your selfe ▪ where you say , they will not receive them into fellowship except they be of their mindes . * but further ( you say ) you would have us to reade calvin upon that subject , in his last epistle to felerius : the matter you say is this , that if he would not be reduced into order , the ministers should tell him , that he is not to be accounted as a brother , because he disturbed the common discipline . what the disciscipline was that he disturbed i cannot tell , but you say it was a discipline that was common , which makes it appeare to mee , that it was like your booke-worship or your common prayer-booke , which is common as farre as the pope hath any preheminence or jurisdiction ; and that you confesse this common discipline , was not the discipline of god , neither a discipline that you approve of , appeares by your owne words . that you judge it not of god , appeares here in your following words ; where you grant this to be the authority of men , and that it is not to be sought after it : &c. and you know the things that they decreed was , that he that would not submit to the synod must be put out of his place ; and you say , that you would not have any cast out of the ministery , or church , because it breedeth schismes * and by this it appeares , that you allow not of this manner of discipline , and by this one may also plainely see , that you are made all of contradictions , as it may plainely appeare in the very next words following , where you conclude , that the authority of men is not to be sought , when the spirit of god pronounceth of such , &c. and here you quote the 1 ▪ cor. 11. 19. where you would make paul an author of casting men out of their places , because they would not yeeld to the synod . i pray you hath paul in this chapter discoursed of any such thing ? was not the controversie here about long haire , about which paul saith the church hath no such custome of contention ; and doth not paul himselfe put the thing to be judged by the church ? in the thirteenth verse , where he saith , iudge in your selves , is it comely that a woman pray unto god uncovered ? and further , in the 14th ▪ verse , doth not nature it selfe teach us , that if a man have long haire it is a shame unto him ? and was not this doctrine grounded in the law and prophets , and confirmed and established by god long before the apostles time ? yes surely it was , and therefore it will not serve your turne , to prove that synods may decree customes , for the church of god ; but it will serve your turne to prove what you desire , that is , a dependancie betweene rome and england , and that the bishops of rome and england by their synods , should make all their shavelings to crouch and submit , and bow to their injunctions ; for your owne practises prove it , by your very submitting , be it never so contrary to the law of god , and of nature it selfe ▪ if it be but confirmed by a synod ; and therefore it appeares that it is your malignity of spirit , which causeth you to write as you doe . but you say you doe it from a zeale ; but i tell you , it is a zeale against gods glory and the good of his church , and against the preservation of puritie of doctrine , and holinesse of life , even at the best like unto the zeale which paul had , before hee knew christ , when he went with letters from the high priest , to pe●secute the church of god , and when he was their pursevant , to enter into houses , and to hale men and women to prison * if paul should have said for himselfe , as you would now pleade for your selfe , that peace could not stand with toleration , and therefore it was meete to disturbe their meetings , it would not have served his turne , for if god had not stricken him downe in the way he should never have seene the lord jesus ( but to his confusion ) though he was a man every way as well informed as your selfe . yea , ●e might have pleaded as well as you , that he did it not out of passion , but that he had thoughts of the church way before ; for you may know that paul was a member of the church of the jewes , which was erected by god , and was zealous for the law , and mighty in knowledge being brought up at the feete of gamaliel , * and also a free borne roman , * and yet he neither knew christ , * nor what christ would have him to doe , * but hee thought other wayes of himselfe , or else he would not have persecuted the professors of the truth , but that hee imagined there was evill in the practise of the truth ; even as you say you apprehend evill in the practise of independancie , though they see it not that practise it , because ( say you ) they are ingaged in it , but it was ignorance in paul , so to thinke , and so ( at the best ) it is ignorance in you . therefore you have no neede to say , that you see more evill in it , then the independants can doe , but you should rather have said you seeme to see , for you cannot see an evill where none is . but you wish that the independant ministers , would consider what hath beene written . i answer , indeede ( for my part ) if their considerations be as mine , and though they consider it as i doe , without partialitie , yet they will finde nothing in it , to perswade them to lay aside all thoughts of setting up separated assemblies ( which hath beene plainely proved to be the way of god ) much lesse that they should come , and grow into one body , and joyne in one way with you , so long as you have so foule a body ( which you confesse you have ) and your way so contrary to the way of christ , being indeede away of your owne devising . and touching the counsell of mr calvin to this purpose . i say , if he should counsell , as you counsell , it would be to me but a as blast of breath ; for we are to take the councell of the holy ghost , by the mouth of paul , which bids us follow him , as hee followes christ . * but you would have us to consider , what paul requires in a pastor , of which things you say , this is not the least , that hee ought not to be selfe-willed ; that is ( say you ) to be adicted to his owne proper judgement . i answer , i have considered this text already , and doe conceive , that this rule of paul is broken by the pope of rome , and the popes of england , which are adicted to their owne wills , and set up their own proper judgements for a law ; which evill and error paul saw in his time , when he said , the mystery of iniquitie began then to worke . * moreover , i do acknowledge that it is a vertue in a go●d pastor from his heart to feare contentions , and not to differ from his brethren , ●nlesse it ●e in cases greatly necessary , but what is all this which you have said to the matter in hand , you know paul spake to the churches planted in the order of christs gospell , and not by the order of the man of sin , and therefore it will not help you to call them againe , to consider what they may enjoy in your church , for i have proved it plainely before in my reply to your answer to their third reason , that a saint of god can injoy no thing in your church without sinne , and therefore what you thinke you have shewed before in your three first reasons is nothing at all ; for though you say it is but some circumstances that be wanting , about the manner and forme of discipline . i tell you you want the substance , even christ to be the head of your churche , and have made you a head of archbishops and lord bishops , which head is full of leprosie . but here you have brought mr. calvin to crosse you shrewdly , and you would have us to beleeve him ; and indeed with my heart i beleeve it , whether mr. calvin speake it or no ; you say he affirmes that the scriptures expresse the substance of discipline ; this is very true ; but in another place you say , that calvin said , there is no expresse precept concerning this matter : and the like you rehearse presently in your next words for you say he affirmeth , that the forme of exercising it , must be ordained by the ministers for edification , because it is not prescribed by the lord . doth not clavin and you both crosse your selves here ? hath christ indeede written in his word the substance of discipline and not the forme ? you would make ( indeed ) the substance of discipline without forme , and voide , even as the earth it selfe was , when darkenes was upon the face of the deepe : so you would have men conceive there is a substance , but they must have no rule to know where to finde it ; for you say , the forme of exercising it , is not prescribed . here you would make christ wanting to his owne house , for we know that moses had the forme of the house , as well as the substance of the house , and the forme of every ordinance , with every , circumstance that was to be used , in and about gods worship , and the forme was given unto moses by god himselfe and moses had not power to alter any thing in the forme , neither had any of the ministers which came after him : but the wicked priests did alter the forme , and apostated from the truth of those ordinances taught by moses ; even so the wicked antichristians apostated from the forme of wholsome words given by paul , which was to follow him as he followed christ . and also from the rule of our saviour christ given to all his apostles , that they should teach the people what he commanded them , ( matth ▪ 28. 20. ) and this ( you may see ) was not onely in substance but in forme also , for paul expresseth to the corinthims , the very forme of breaking of bread , which he had received of the lord jesus ; * and by this you may see you have given the holy ghost the lie , even as calvin also , affirming , that the forme of exercising it , is not presribed by the lord ; and therefore i would have you ▪ ( mr. edwards ) to take the counsell your selfe , that you give unto others , for it is very good counsell . first , that you please not your selfe in your owne opinions . secondly , that you be not so adicted to your owne judgement , but remember the danger that calvin laies downe here , that a man being wedded to his owne judgement , so soone as ever an ocation offers it self , will be a schismaticke ; and i have told you already , that this was the first occasion of schisme and apostacie , from the truth of the gospels worship , that being darke in their mindes , and judgeing the substance of gods worship to be without forme ; and as they them selves ( so presuming ) tooke upon them to prescribe a forme themselves , so they being wedded to their owne judgement , did schisme from the truth of the scripture . thus you say you have delivered your owne soule . but to whom , or from what you have delivered it , i cannot tell . but you say further : you hope the brethren , will withdraw their petitions , that they may not be reade in the honourable house of commons , but , if they should be read ( you say ) you hope the house will cast them out . * i answer , that they should withdraw their petitions , is but one of your vaine hopes , for they had more neede now to petion then ever they had , both to god and men ▪ seeing such a goliah as you , musters up so many forces against them . but the later of these your vaine hopes , doth manifest the malice of your heart , in that you hope the house will cast their pe●itions out ? are you so void of true piety towards that honourable house ? or judge you that house so void of common reason ? being as they are indeede the very eyes of the whole land ; the eares of the whole land , and the tongue of the whole land ; yea the hand and power of the whole land : being so as i conceive in my simplicity , would you have them , i say to be blinde of one eye ? and to looke upon the petitions and complaints of some of the people of the land , and not upon all ? would you have them so partiall ? would you have them also deafe of one ●are ? that they should not hearken to the cries and petitions , and complaints of all the kings subjects , one as well as another ? would you have them also so defective in their tongue , that they should not be for the praise of them that doe well , as well as for the punishment of evill doers ? nay , seeing they are called gods , * would you have their hands so shortned , that they should not once stretch them forth , to support and helpe the poore afflicted members of jesus christ ? then indeede you would have them very unlike unto moses , even as unlike as your selves are unto aaron . would you have this house to exercise their power upon persons before they have made due triall of the cause ? ( by hearing witnesses speake on both sides : truely ( mr. edwards ) if you would ( as it appeareth plaine it is your minde , ) then i will submit to the judgement of both the houses of parliament , whether you be not a man void of common reason ; for he is a foole that judgeth a matter before he know it . and you are not onely void of reason your selfe , but you would have the parliament to be like you ; for if the parliament should judge a man before they heare his cause , they would be like the court at lambeth , which were used to sit in the high priests hall , judgeing matters without due triall . further , you say you are perswaded , that it will never be said of this parliament , that they opened a doore for toleration . for answer to this , i must tell you , that i conceive , they may receive a petition , and yet not open a doore for toleration ; i meane for such a toleration as you here speake of , for setting up churches against churches , for that is not the toleration that we pleade for , but your evill conclusion . and therefore you may pray , if you will , that that doore may be kept shut . and we will pray also that all doores may be kept shut , that will let any evills into the kingdome in processe of time , least that any succeeding generations , should have cause to write in their chronicles of this parliament , as it was written of naaman the syrian ; that is ( as you say , ( it will be said of them ) but they granted a toleration . moreover , we desire nothing at their hands , that may cast a darke shadow upon their glorious light . but that which we desire , is liberty of conscience to practise gods true worship in the land wherein we were borne , which will be no blemish to any christian magistrate to grant , nor for any counsell of state to establish . and therefore you should not have concluded this your discourse against independancie , and against toleration , before you had offered it to the triall before some lawfull committee chosen by the parliament , to heare both you and them ; and then if you could have maintained your churche of england ( which you plead for ) with your synods , and counsells , ceremonies , and booke-worship , canons , and sensures , citations , degradations , and excommunications , with your absolutions , to be founded upon the substance of that worship and discipline , which you say calvin affirmeth , is expressed in the scriptures ▪ then you might with the more shew of honesty have admoninished the parliament , to have cast out their petitions , but till then you may lay your hand upon your mouth , and never for shame affirme , that the granting of toleration unto us ( to worship god , without molestation ) will be setting up churches against churches . neither ought you to have concluded against them ▪ before you had proved their way of worship to be contrary to the word of god , or not to have footing in his word ( as yours hath not ) for except you had done this , you have small cause to rejoyce in your thoughts , in respect of the accounts that you are to give about this coutraversie ; for your contraversie can be conceived at the best , to be but ▪ the contraversie that paul had , when he went unto damascus which was a contraversie against christ * though christ in his rich grace pardoned him , when hee had smitten him downe , and driven him out of himselfe ▪ and made him to confesse , that he knew not christ , in these words ( where hee saith , ) lord who art thov ▪ and further acknowledged that he knew not the will of christ ? by asking him ( with these words ) what wilt thov have me to doe ? thus you may see , though the controversie was against christ , yet paul was reconciled to god the father , by iesus christ the sonne , and endued with the holy ghost , which made him a minister of the new testament , which all his humane learning could not doe . and paul might have boasted that he was stirred up by the spirit of god , against the way of christ , as you boast , that you are stirred up by gods spirit against the way of separation . but that would not have justified paul , much lesse shall it justifie you ; for paul did that hee did out of a zeale to maintaine the law of god . but yours is to maintaine the law of sinne , even the law of sathan . paul persecuted those that he did conceive to be evill ; but you persecute those that you acknowledge good men , and such as have beene active and famous for god . and therefore you have no neede to boast of the spirits enabling you all along , and that above your owne strength ( as you declare ) for it may plainely appeare ( unto all men of understanding ) that it was the very spirit of delusion . and therefore , you may justly expect censures and reproaches ( as you say you doe ) because your way in this action was not pleasing to god . but for my part , instead of censuring you , i would rather reprove you ; and admonish you , rather than reproach you , and pray that god might turne you . and if god would be pleased to give you that reward of your labour , which hee gave unto paul , even to strike you downe , and to make you to heare his voyce , and learne to know him , and what he would have you to doe ; then it would turne much to the praise of god , and to the comfort of your poore soule , if you be a chosen vessell unto him , ( which is the thing you pretend you aime at ) and then you shall be sure to gaine truth , and love and peace , and holinesse in all your after discourses , when you shall speake with a new tongue , and expresse the language of canaan . and now ( mr. edwards ) for conclusion of the whole , i doe here affirme , that if upon the sight of this booke , you shall conceive that i have either misconstrued your words , or accused you without ground ( necessarily drawne from your owne speeches ) or that i have mistaken the sence of any scripture , that i have quoted in this booke ▪ or that i have not answered you directly to the point ( by any oversight ) then chuse you sixe men , ( or more , if you please ) and i will chuse as many , and if you will we will agree upon a moderator ; and trie it out in a faire discourse , & peradventure save you a labour from publishing your large tractates , which you say you intend to put out in print against the whole way of separation ; and if it can be made appeare that ( in any of these particulars ) i have missed it , i will willingly submit , but if you overcome me , your conquest will not be great , for i am a poore worme , and unmeete to deale with you . but if you doe give another onset , before you accept of a parse , ( seeing i have offered you conditions of peace ) the world will judge you an unreasonable man , and you shall never have the day . but if you will ( say your quarrell is only against those ministers , that justifie your church and ministry , and worship ) and can prove that the minsters of holland and new england doe generally justifie the church of england , and the ministery of the church of england , and the worship instituted by the church of england : i say if they thus far justifie you , ( as i have here specified ) then will i freely acknowledge ( when i heare them speak it ) that i was mistaken concerning them ( yet the case in controversie stands still to be tried between you and me ) but i do otherwise conceive of them for the present , because i am credibly informed , that they doe , generally and publikely , renounce the power by which they were called to their office of ministry , in and by the church of england ; some of them affirming that they have stood ministers too long under such a false power ; others confessing here in publike , that it was their sinne , that they had not revealed so much to the people before they went away , with many the like expressions , which i can prove , if wee come face to face , which maketh it apeare to me ( for the present ) that though they preach in the assemblies met together by publike authority , yet they judge themselves to be ministers sent of god to separate the precious from the vile , and that though they have not an outward mediate calling ( seeing they have cast it off , because it was false ) yet they have an inward immediate calling , as all the ministers of god had in former time , which were able to unfould the misteries of the scripture , though they had neither calling by man , nor by the will of man but by the holy ghost . and i hope these men , ( of whom i speake ) will never returne to serve god before the idols , nor preach for wages , as balaam did , but still stand fast in the liberty wherein christ hath set them ; seeing they cave hast off the grievous yoke of antichrist , separating betweene the precious and the vile , fitting men for the lords building , that so they may goe up to ierusalem by troupes . this is my charity towards them , though i know them not by face , and i thinke i may boldly say that none of them knowes me . esay 41. 21. stand to your cause , saith the lord , bring forth your strong reasons , saith the king of jacob . esay 5-8 . take counsell together , yet it shall be br●ught to nought , pronounce a decree , yet it shall not stand , for god is with us . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a32820e-410 * deut. 32 ▪ ● . 1 king. ● . 53. * gen. 4 ▪ 14. 15. 16. c gen. 4. 3. d mat. 24. 38. 39. 1 pet. 3. 20. e gen ▪ 7 ▪ 1. f ver. 21 , 22 , 23. g gen. 12. 1. h exo. 3. 7 ▪ 8 ▪ 9. 10. chap. 6. 26. 27. i and 12 ▪ ●2 . k num 16. 12 , 13 14. l ver. 21. 24 , 25 , 26. m ver. 35. n ver. 31 , 32 , 33. * ver. 5. deut. 5. 26. 27. * deut. 28. 9. 10. ezza . 1. hag. 1. 2 , 3. 4. 8. 12. 14. p ier 51. 6. q ier. 3. 12. hos. 11 , 7. christ made so great a difference betweene the world and the church , that hee would not pray for the world ; yet would die for the church , which was given him out of the world ; and without a separation the church can not be known from the world . r rev. 1. 3 ▪ s rev. 18. 4. * amos 7. 12. 13. * gen. 10. 8 , 9. * ecster 3. 8. 6 , 6. * neh , 6. notes for div a32820e-1330 ●●● . 15. 19. verse 13. 14 , 16. compared with 1 cor. 12. matth. 1● ▪ 15. 16. 17 ▪ acts 15. 1. ●● . 1 cor. 12. act. 16. 1. 3. see the answer to his second reason against independencie . see ezek. 43. 11. a tit 3. 10. b rev. 1. 20. rev. 2. 20. notes for div a32820e-5170 c ● 2 cor. 6. 14 , 15. 16. 17. d rev. 14. 9 , 10 , 11. 12. e chap. 18. 4. see the 3. & 4 leafe of his epistle . reason . 1. pag. 23. pag. 23. * 1 tim. 6. * for this see the reply to his answe to their third reason for toleration . pag. 29. * for this see his book pag. 5 5. * esay 4 2. 8. pag. 30. li● . 30. 31. b 1 tim. 2. 1. 2. c pro. 15. 8. * ●ph . 4. 5. pag. 31. lin. ●● . * matth. 6. 5 * ver. 7. 8. matth. 6. 9. ver. 10. ver. 11. ver. 12. ver. 13. c rom. 8. 15 d ioh. 14. 26. * for this see the third part of his answer to their second reason against toleration , pag. 30. * 2 tim. 3. 5. * for this see his fif● reason against toleration . pag. 28. lin. 12. 13. matth. 18. 15 , 16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , 20. rev. 21. 27. and 22 , 14 , 15. * pag. 34. exod. 5. 17. notes for div a32820e-9360 * pag. 34. * gen. 45. 24. * pro. 18. 19. * gen. 50. 20. * 1 ioh. 2. 19. * ioh. 6. 66. 67. * i pray thee ( good reader ) take notice , that here i acknowledge an ove●sight ( in taking mr. edwards his eleventh reason , to be a second tenth reason ) it was th●ough my neglect , in not looking into his errata . * for th●t reade the answer to his third reason against independancie . * see the reply tothe sixth part of his answer to this their following reasou . rev. 13. whence the church of england is derived . whence the church of rome is derived . what the image of the first beast is . * in the second part of his second reason against toleration , pag. 24. in his sixth reason against toleration pag. 29. and the third part of his answer to their second reason for toleration . * pag. 43. lin. 16 ▪ 17. rev. 7. rev. 12. 11 ▪ * pag. 45. * rev. 12. 14 * verse 16. * pag. 46. li. ●● . pag. 48. lin. 14. pag. 48. lin. 20. * what it is that bred the separates . * pag. 49. ● 9. 10. * pag. 50. lin 23. 〈◊〉 lin. 29. * cant. 1. 7. * pag. 48. l. 23 , 24. * acts ●●● 24. * acts 6. 5. ● . 10. * ioh. 9. 31. exod. 9. 29. 33. pag 52. * when stephen gardiner harped upon unitie , unitie : yea sir ( said latimer ) but in veritie , not in popery : better is a diversiti● ▪ ●●●●●● vnitie in popery . * rev. 21. 27. pag. 52. * pag. 49. lin. 31. ● . * pag. 52. lin. 33. 34. * for this see his eigth reason against toleration . pag. 32. lin. 23. 24. 25. 26. 27. * pag. 26. * acts 8. 3. * act. 22. 3● * ver. 2● . * ver. 8. * ver. 10. 1 cor. 11. 1. ● thes. 2. 7. ●or this see reasons against independancie , pag. 5. lin. 12. ●● . * 1 cor. 11. 23. * for this see his book pag. 55. * psal. 8● . 1. 6. * acts 9. 4. 5. church-government and church-covenant discussed, in an answer of the elders of the severall churches in new-england to two and thirty questions, sent over to them by divers ministers in england, to declare their judgments therein. together with an apologie of the said elders in new-england for church-covenant, sent over in answer to master bernard in the yeare 1639. as also in an answer to nine positions about church-government. and now published for the satisfaction of all who desire resolution in those points. mather, richard, 1596-1669. 1643 approx. 332 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 71 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2008-09 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a88943 wing m1270 thomason e106_8 thomason e106_9 estc r18913 99860496 99860496 130517 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a88943) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 130517) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 19:e106[8], 19:e106[9]) church-government and church-covenant discussed, in an answer of the elders of the severall churches in new-england to two and thirty questions, sent over to them by divers ministers in england, to declare their judgments therein. together with an apologie of the said elders in new-england for church-covenant, sent over in answer to master bernard in the yeare 1639. as also in an answer to nine positions about church-government. and now published for the satisfaction of all who desire resolution in those points. mather, richard, 1596-1669. mather, richard, 1596-1669. apologie of the churches in new-england for church-covenant. peters, hugh, 1598-1660. davenport, john, 1597-1670. [4], 84; [2], 46, [1], 50-78, [2] p. printed by r.o. and g.d. [and t.p. and m.s.] for benjamin allen and are to be sold at his shop in popes head-ally, london : 1643. the first two parts were written by richard mather. editor's note "to the reader" signed: h. peter, i.e. hugh peters. in part a reply to: ashe, simeon. a letter of many ministers in old england, requesting the judgement of their reverend brethren in new england concerning nine positions. "an apologie of the churches in new-england for church-covenant" and "an answer of the elders of the severall churches in new-england unto nine positions", the latter written by john davenport, each have separate dated title page with "printed by t.p. and m.s. for benjamin allen" in imprint. "an apologie" begins new register and pagination and possibly was issued separately (cf. wing m1267). the last leaf is blank. annotation on thomason copy: on t.p. of part 1: "june 15"; on t.p. of part 3: "june 15". reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng bernard, richard, 1568-1641. ashe, simeon, d. 1662. -letter of many ministers in old england, requesting the judgement of their reverend brethren in new england concerning nine positions -controversial literature -early works to 1800. church polity -early works to 1800. congregational churches -england -early works to 1800. congregational churches -government -early works to 1800. 2007-03 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-04 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-06 john latta sampled and proofread 2007-06 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion church-government and church-covenant discvssed , in an answer of the elders of the severall churches in new-england to two and thirty questions , sent over to them by divers ministers in england , to declare their judgments therein . together with an apologie of the said elders in new-england for church-covenant , sent over in answer to master bernard in the yeare 1639. as also in an answer to nine positions about church-government . and now published for the satisfaction of all who desire resolution in those points . london , printed by r. o. and g. d. for benjamin allen and are to be sold at his shop in popes head-ally , 1643. to the reader . it is not hard to believe that such discourses as this wil meet with divers censures , the prophane and ignorant loathing christ , and any thing concerning him ; the formalist accounting such truths troublesom that may ingage him in the change of his opinions and practises , and some of the wisest will be apt to question the tyming such light as this : yea doubtles this pamphlet-glut●ed age will so looke upon it , and lay it by . but because i doe conceive that this sword will not be sheath'd which is now drawn , till church-work be better known , and more countenanced , and since safety is laid up in the temple , psa . 27. 3 , 4 , 5. i could not but help on this , which attended and practised may prove our security next to christ . these were either sudden answers to our doubting and inquiring brethren , or some satisfaction rendred about our so much slighted church-covenant , which wee could not but thinke might come to view , for the present stay to some faithfull soules , that call for light , and intend to use it well : for others , of what kind soever , we must beare their harder thoughts , among th●se usuall loads of scandals , that men of our judgement must carry , especially if zeale for the truth draw them forth to publike observation ; nor doe we purpose ( god helping us . ) to succumbe under calumny , being the livery of quieter times then these , let us bee viler still , so god and his arke may be more glorious . yet this i doe professe for my selfe and brethren that as we have not bin dealt with , nor convinc'd of any offence , so we shall ever be ready to give an account of that hope which is in us , being call'd thereunto ; in the meane time we over looke these barkings of black mouthes , and wish a good comment be made upon the text of our plaine meaning . the onely way i know to reach gods mind in worship will bee to love the truth for it's owne sake : yea to love it when it shall condemne our practises and persons also : who hath not observed that the first step to error is the declining the truth in love to it ? ⁂ hence popery begat her first brat , and hath nurst it up with thesame milke ; we would earnestly desire that none would call that unsensonable or unreasonable , which god seemes even now to call for , at the calling of this synode , and will carry so much reason with it , as god and his truth will owne ; more tendernes and respect to our brethren we know not how to shew , who sent us these 32. questions , no other dealing would we have from our brethren not consenting with us . some rivers have bin noted to differ in the colours of the water , yet running in the same channell : let jesus christ be lifted up by us all ; let us love him whilst wee dispute about him . presbytery and independency ( as it is cal'd ) are the wayes of worship and church fellowship , now looked at , since ( we hope ) episcop 〈…〉 out , and will be buried without expectation of another resurrection . we are much charged with what we own not , viz : independency , when as we know not any churches reformed , more looking at sister churches for helpe then ours doe onely we cannot have rule yet discovered from any friend or enemy , that we should be under canon , or power of any other church ; under their councell we are . we need not tell the wise whence tyranny grew in churches , and how common wealths got their pressure in the like kind . these be our sighs and hearty wishes , that selfe may be conquered in this poore nation , which shuts the doore against these truths . know ( good reader ) we do not hereby go about to whistle thee out of any known good way of god. commonly questions and answers cleare up the way , when other treatises leave us to darknes . read them , and what we say for a church-covenant , it may save charge and time in reading other bookes , remember wee strive not here for masteryes , but give an account of our practise wherein if thou know'st we faile candidus imperti ; if we agree let us worke by our plat-forme ; and may thy soule flourish as a greene heath or watered garden . so prayeth thine heartily h. peter . the xxxii questions stated . _1 . whether the greatest part of the english there ( by estimation ) be not as yet unadmitted to any congregation among you , and the reasons thereof ? 2. what things doe you hold to be essentiall and absolutely necessary to the being of a true visible church of christ ? 3. whether doe you not hold all visible believers to bee within the visible church as members thereof , and not without in the apostles sence ; 1 cor. 5. and therefore ought so to be acknowledged , and accepted in all congregations wheresoever they shall come , and are so knowne : and ought ( if they desire and be not otherwise unfit ) of right to be permitted to partake in all gods ordinances and church priviledges there , so farre as they personally concerne themselves , although they be not as yet fixed members in particul●r covenant , either with that congregation where for the present they reside , nor with any other ? 4. whether you doe not hold that baptisme rightly ( for substance ) partaked doth make them that are so baptized , members of the visible church : and so to have right ( at least quoad nos ) to all the priviledges thereof ( so farre as they are otherwise fit ) untill they be cast out ( if they so deserve ) by excommunication . 5. whether doe you not admit children under age as members of the church , together with , and in the admission of their parent or parents : so as thenceforth they may partake of all church priviledges being otherwise fit ) without any other personall profession of faith , or entring into church covenant , when they shall come to yeares ? and how long doe you count them under age ? 6. whether do not you admit orphants under age , with and in their guardians ? 7. whether doe you admit or refuse children under age only acco●ding to the present estate of their nearest parents ? or doe you not admit them if any of their next ancestors before their parents were believers ? 8. whether doe you require of all persons of age , whom you admit members of any church ? 1. a publike vocall declaration of the manner and soundnesse of their conversion ? 2. a publike profession of their faith concerning the articles of religion . 3. an expresse verball covenanting to walke with the said church in particular , in church fellowship . 4. and not to depart from the said church afterward without the consent thereof : or how doe you hold and practise in these things ? 9. whether doe you hold all , or the most of our parish assemblies in old-england to be true visible churches of christ ; with which you may lawfully joyne in every part of gods true worship ( if occasion served thereto : ) or if not all or the most , then what ones are those of which you so account , and with which you durst so partake or joyne ; and in what respects ? and why be not the rest such as well as they ? 10. if you hold that any of our parishionall assemblies are true visible churches , and that the members thereof are all , or some of them ( at least ) members of true visible churches , then whether will you permit such members ( at least ) as are either famously knowne to your selves to be godly , or doe bring sufficient testimoniall thereof from others that are so knowne , or from the congregation it selfe whereof they were members here , to partake with you in all the same ordinances , and parts of gods true worship in any of your congregations ( as by occasion they may be there ) in the same manner , and with the like liberty , as you would permit any that might happily come unto you from any of the churches of geneva , france , the low-countreyes , or yet from any one church to another among your selves : suppose from some church about connecticut , or that of plimouth , &c. vnto the church at boston , new-towne , dorchester , &c. or if not , what may be the reason thereof ? 11. whether doe you hold our present standing in our parish assemblies here in old england , to bee lawfull and safe to be continued in , or how f●rre it may be so ? 12. whether doe you hold that every believer is alwayes bound to joyne himselfe as a fixed member to some one particular congregation , so as if he doe not , and so oft and so long as he doth it not , so oft and so long he is without the church in the apostles sence , 1 cor. 5. as an heathen or publican , out of the kingdome of christ , and possibility of salvation , according to that maxime in divinity , extra ecclesiam non est salus . 13. vvhether doe you thinke it lawfull and convenient that a company of private and illitterate persons ( into a church body combined ) should themselves ordinarily examine , elect , ordaine , and depose their owne ministers of the word , without the asistance of any other ministers of other churches , where the same may be had ? 14. whether doe you hold that every small company of seaven , or nine , or twenty , or fourty persons , combined into a church body , be such a church ( as by the ordinance of christ ) hath , and ought to have all power , and exercise of church government : so as they may transact all ecclesiasticall businesses independently amongst themselves ? 15. whether do you give the exercise of all church power of government to the whole church , or to the presbiters thereof alone ? and if to those , then we desire to know what act of government , and superior authority ( properly so called ) may the presbiters doe , more then any other member may doe , or without the particular consent of the rest , wee crave to have those particular acts mentioned : and how , and over whom in those acts the presbiters doe rule ( in propriety of speaking ) more then the rest of the congregation doe ? 16. whether doe you not permit women to vote in church matters ? 17. whether in voting doe the major part alwayes , or at any time , carry ecclisiasticall matters with you , or in what things doth it , in what not ? 18. what meanes have you to preserve your churches in vnity and verity , or to correct or reduce any church erring in doctrine or practice . as , 1. whether you have any plat-form of doctrine and discipline agreed upon ; or if you have not , whether meane you to have one , and when ; and thinke you it lawfull and expedient so to have ? 2. whether have you combined your selves together into classes , or purpose so to doe , so as to doe no weighty matter without their counsell and consent ? 3. or give you any power to synods and councells to determine and order things that cannot otherwise be ended , so as that their determination shall bind the particular churches so assembled to due obedience , in case they decree nothing but according to truth and right , and to peaceable suffering , in case they should doe otherwise ? or what other course you have , or intend to have for that end aforesaid ? 19. whether hold you , that each particular church may lawfully make such laws or orders ecclesiasticall , for the government of it selfe , and the members thereof ; for decency , order , and edification , as shall oblige all her members , and may not be omitted without sinne ? 20. wherein hold you that the whole essence of a ministers calling doth consist : as 1 , whether is election by the people it , yea or no ? or 2. is it so essentiall , as that without it , the ministers calling is a meere nullity ? or 3. is ordination as essentiall a part thereof , as the peoples election ? or 4. is it but a meer formality and solemnity of their calling ? 21. whether doe you hold it lawfull for meer lay or private men to ordaine ministers in any case ? 22. what essentiall difference put you between the office of pastor and teacher , and doe you obser●●e the same difference inviolably ; and do not your teachers by vertue of that office give themselves usually to application of doctrine as , well as your pastours ? and do they not also usually apply the seales ? 23. what authority or eminency have your preaching elders , above your sole ruling elders , or are they both equalls ? 24. vvhether may a minister of one congregation ( being thereto requested ) do as a minister any act of his ministery ( as preach , baptize , administer the lords supper , ordain , &c. in and unto other congregations besides his owne ? 25. whether hold you that a minister of a congregation , leaving or loosing his place ( suppose without his fault ) doe withall lose both nomen and esse of his ministery , and do become a meere lay , or private man , untill he be a new elected , and ordained ? 26. whether doe you allow , or thinke it lawfull to allow and settle any certain & stinted maintenance upon your ministers ? 27. whether doe you permit and call upon meer lay and private men ( neither being in the ministerie nor intended to it ) ordinarily to preach or prophecie publiquely , in , and before the congregation ? and whether thinke you that prophecying mentioned , 1 cor. 14. be to be understood of such , and be an ordinary and standing order of god in the church ? 28. whether doe you allow and call upon your people publiquely before all the congregation to propound questions , move doubts , & argue with their ministers of matters delivered either by them or others , either at the same , or some other time ? 29. whether hold you that the conversion of sinners to god is ordinarily the proper fruit and effect of the word preached , by a minister alone , and that by vertue of his office alone , or that it is alike common to ministers , and lay persons , so they be gifted to preach ? 30. whether all and every of your churches ( including plimouth , &c. ) do precisely observe the same course both in constitution and government of themselves ? 31. vvhether would you permit any companie of ministers and people ( being otherwise in some measure approvable ) to sit downe by you , and set up and practise another forme of discipline , enioying like libertie with your selves in the common-wealth , and accepted as a sister church by the rest of your churches ? 32. vvhether hold you it lawfull to use any set forms of prayer in publique or private , as the lords prayer and others , either made by himselfe that useth the same , or else by some other man ? the answers to the aforegoing questions . the first question answered . all the english and others also are freely admitted to be present in our congregations , at the reading of the scriptures , and exposition thereof ( which is wont alwayes to goe along therewith ) at the preaching of the word , singing of psalmes , prayers , admitting of members , and dispencing of censures ; and many also are admitted to church communion , and so to partake in church ordinances and priviledges , as sacraments , power of election , censures , &c. though many also there are who are not yet admitted to this church communion . but whether is the greater number , those that are admitted hereunto , or those that are not we cannot certainly tell ? but in the churches in the bay , where most of us are best acquainted , we may truely say , that for the heads of families , those that are admitted are farre more in number then the other : besides whom there are likewise sundry children and servants that are admitted also . and for the reason● why many are not yet received to church communion , they are sundry . 1. many are not admitted because they are not yet knowne . every yeare hitherto god hath replenished the country with many new commers , and these at the first are not suddainly taken in , as members of churches , till by time there have been some triall of them , and better occasion to know them what they are . sometimes once a yeare there are in the land many hundreds , and some thousands of this sort . 2. when by time they come to be knowne , many do appeare to be carnall , and give no testimony of being members of christ , and therefore if they should offer themselves to be members of churches the churches would not see warrant to receive them , because the church is the body of christ . 3. some that are godly do of their own accord for a time forbeare to offer themselves , till they be better acquainted with the church and ministry where they intend to joyne , and with the wayes in which the churches walke in this country , and and till they be better informed what are the duties of church members . 4. those that are knowne to be godly , are all admitted in some church or other presently , upon their own desire , when they offer themselves thereto : except any have given offence by walking ( in any particular , in their conversation ) otherwise then becomes the gospell ; and then such are to give satisfaction to them to whom they have given offence , by acknowledgeing their offence , and shewing repentance for it , and then they are admitted . it is one thing what churches ought to be by the appointment of jesus christ , another , what weaknesse and swerving● from his appointment , he may beare withall for a time , before he renounce and cast off a people from being his church . in respect of the former our answer is , that when a visible church is to be e●rected planted or constituted , by the appointment of christ , it is necessary that the matter of it in regard of quality , should be saints by calling , visible christians and believers , 1 cor. 1. 2. eph. 1. 1. and in respect of quantity no more in number in the dayes of the new testament , but so many as may meet in one congregation . 1 cor. 11. 20 & 14. 23. acts 14. 27. & 15. 22 30. and the forme , a gathering together of these visible christians , a combining and uniting of them into one body , by the bond of an holy covenant , for which we refer you to the apolgie of the churches in n. e. sent the last yeare in way of answer to mr. bernard . for the latter we deny not , but visible churches rightly constituted at the first , may degenerate , and great corruptions may grow therein , both in respect of matter and forme , and likewise in respect of their walking and administrations , and yet the lord in his patience may beare long with them , before he give them a bill of divorce , and make them lo-ammi , not a people ; as the example of the church of israel in the old testament . of the church of corinth , the churches of galatia , the 7 churches of asia , and others in the new testament , doe abundantly manifest . but what degrees of corruption may be , before the soule as it were , and life , and being of a church be destroyed , is hard for us precisely and punctually to determine ; or to say thus farre a church may erre , and yet remaine a church ; but if it proceed any further , then it ceaseth to be a church any more ; onely in the generall this we observe , the lord doth not presently cast off a church or give them a bill of divorce , no not for fundamentall errors in doctrine , or idolatry in worship , or tyranny in government , till after obstinate and rebellious rejection of reformation , and the meanes thereof : for all these were found in the church of israel , when they crucified christ , yet the apostles rejected them not , till after the light of grace offered , and blasphemously rejected , acts 13. 45 , 46. but if your selves have so studied this point , as to have ripened and formed thoughts therein , we should gladly receive light from you . we do not know any visible church of the n. t. properly so called , but onely a particular congregation ; and therefore when this question in the first and last clause of it speakes of believers within the visible church , as members thereof , although they be not members of that particular congregation , where for the present they reside , nor of any other : this speech seemes to us according to our apprehension to imply a contradiction . they that are within the visible church as members thereof , must needs be members of some particular congregation , because all visible churches are congregationall , as mr. baine sheweth at large from the church of antioch , act. 14. 27. the church at corinth , 1 cor. 11. & 14. and other examples and reasons with answers to the objections to the contrary in his dioces . triall quest . 1. whereto we referre you in this point ; neither is he alone in this tenent , for mr. parker , and many other teach the same . those silenced and deprived ministers that wrote the booke called , the christian and modest offer of disputation , laying downe 16. propositions which they offer to maintaine against the prelats , give this for the fourth of them viz. there is no true visible church of christ , but a particular ordinary congregation onely . doubtlesse every true visible church hath power from christ to exercise excommunication and other ordinances of christ , so that they proceed therein according to the rules of the word , 1 cor. 5. 4. 5. mat. 18. 17. now dr. whitakers sheweth against bellarmine , that excommunication belongs not to the universall church , but onely to a particular congregation . qui justè excommunicantur , saith he , co satanae traditos esse concedimu● , non t●men posse pr●priem , d●●i eject●s ex ecclesia catholica , quia excommunicatio non catholica , sed particularis ecclesiae censura est . de eccles . qu. 1. c. 6. wherefore if excommunication which belongs to the visible church , belongeth to a particular congregation , it followeth , that there is no visible church , but onely a particular congregation . secondly , as all visible believers are not without christ , but in christ , according as they are believers , so we easily grant ; that those without , of whom the apostle speakes , 1 cor. 5. were unbelievers , pagans , and heathens , both without christ , and also without the visible church . for those that were in christ , and believers in him , were not wont to abstaine from joyning to some particular congregation or other ; and so it come to passe , that as they were in christ by their faith , so by such joyning they became also to be within the visible church . 3. but this we conceive is cleare also , that unlesse believers , be members of this or that particular congregation , to whose inspection and government they have commended themselves in the lord , they also in some respect may be said to be without , that is without the jurisdiction and power of the visible church , and without right to the priviledges of it , as long as they continue in that state : for the church hath nothing to do , either to dispence censures and church priviledges to pagans , who are without all churches , and without christ also ; or to such christians , who though they are not without christ , yet are not within any particular church : for neither the church , nor the ministers thereof may be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and though those without of whom the apostle speakes , 1 cor. 5. were pagans and heathens , both without christ , and without the visible church also , yet when hee speaketh of judgeing , and saith they might judge them that are within , and not judge them that are without , hee must not be understood as if he meant it simply of being in christ or without christ , and no more then so , but also of being in that particular congregation , and without it : for it is plaine , that those that were in christ , if they were not also within their particular congregation , they had nothing to do to judge them ; and those that were within their particular congregation , them they might judge , though they were not in christ . 4. and that church priviledges do not belong to believers , as such , but onely to such as withall are members of some particular church : the grounds and reasons in the answer to the third and fourth proposition sent the last yeare , do seeme to us to make manifest , whereto we do referre you , for further answer to this question . it is an opinion of the anabaptists , that the church is made by baptisme , and therefore when they constitute or erect a church , they do it by being all of them baptized , which was the manner of mr. smith , mr. helwis , and the rest of that company when they set up their church : the papists also do imagine , that men enter into the church by baptisme , and it is said , that their founts were set neere the doores of their temples , to signifie mens entring into the church by baptisme , and they thought themselves to be christened , or made christian soules by being baptized . but we do not believe that baptisme doth make men members of the church , nor that it is to be administred to them that are without the church , as the way and meanes to bring them in , but to them that are within the church , as a seale to confirme the covenant of god unto them . for 1. this is one point of the dignity and priviledge of the church , that baptisme and all church ordinances are given and committed to it , as circumcision , and church ordinances were given and concredited to the church of the jewes , ioh. 7. 22. now if baptisme in its first being and institution be given as a benefit and priviledge to the church , then baptisme is not that which makes the church ; but the church is presupposed , and must be before it , for the dones , or persons to whom a thing is given , must needs be before the gift that is given to them . 2. the nature and use of baptisme is to be a seale to confirme the covenant of grace between god and his church , and the members thereof , as circumcision also was , rom. 4. 11. now a seale is not to make a thing that was not , but to confirme something that was before ; and so baptisme is not that which gives being to the church , nor to the covenant , but is for confirmation thereof . to bring in baptisme before the covenant , and before the church , with whom god makes the covenant and then to bring in the church afterwards , is to make baptisme a seale unto a blanke , or to a falshood . when the jesuits of rhemes had said that christ sent 12 apostles to the jewes to move them to penance , and so by baptisme to make them of his church . and that paul was sent to the gentiles to move them also to faith and penance , and by baptisme to make them of his church . this saying of making men of the church by baptisme , though uttered by them , as it were by the way , and not being the chiefe scope of their discourse , yet seemed to mr. cartwright so erroneous and unsound , that hee would not let it passe without bearing speciall witnesse against the same . and therefore in opposition thereunto he hath these words , and in another character for more conspicuousnesse , viz. that baptisme makes not men of the church , but sealeth their incorporation into it , hath been declared afore . argument of acts 6. 1. and that catechisme which is commonly said to be penned by our reverend brother mr. ball , or mr. nicholas , now with god , giving this for the definition of baptisme , that it is a sacrament of our ingrafting into christ , communion with him , and entrance into the church , doth in the exposition plainely declare , that when they called baptisme a sacrament of our entrance into the church , they did not meane that baptisme made men members of the church , but signified and sealed that they were members afore : the seed of abraham say they , pag 144. gal. 3. 7. or children of christian parents are within the covenant , are christians and members of the church , 1 cor. 7. 14. rom. 11. 16. baptisme therefore doth not make them christian soules , but doth solemnly signifie and seale their ingrafting into christ , and that communion which the members of christ have with him their head , and doth confirme , that they are acknowledged members of the church , and entred into it , 1 pet. 3. 21. 3. the lord hath had his church when there was neither baptisme nor circumcision , and therefore baptisme or circumcision cannot be that which constitutes the church . the church is one and the same in essence from the begining of the world to the end thereof , viz. a company of people combined together by holy covenant with god , and one with another , and this hath been before baptisme , and likewise before circumcision in the dayes of the patriarks afore abraham . yea if baptisme now , or circumcision in former time did make men members of the church , then for forty yeares together there was no making members of the church , for so long circumcision was discontinued , when baptisme was not yet instituted , ioss . 5. 2 , 3. &c. and so by this meanes all that generation of the israelites that were not circumcised till their comming over jordan unto gilgall , should have bin no members of the church afore that time of their circumcision , which is contrary to the scripture , which as it gives the name and title of a church to the body of this people , when they were in the wildernesse , act. 7. ●8 . ( and they were in the wildernesse 40. yeares , in the latter parts of which time there were few left remaining that had beene circumcised ) so it witnesseth that afore this time of their circumcision they were in covenant with god and his church , deut. 29. 10 , 11 , 12. for that covenant was not made with their fathers that came out of egypt , and were circumcised there , because that generation was consumed in the wildernesse for their murmuring afore this time : but this covenant was made with the children , that as yet were uncircumcised , and therefore it was not circumcision that made men members of the church . 4. baptisme hath been administred , and no church nor members made thereby , and men have been made members of churches and not then baptised , but before . and therfore it is not baptisme that makes men members of the church , jerusalem and all judea , and all the region round about jordan were baptised of iohn confessing their sinnes , mat. 3. 6. and christ made and baptised more disciples then iohn , ioh. 4. 1. and yet neither christ nor john did make new churches , nor gather men into them themselves , both the one and the other living and dying members of the jewish church , which was not yet dissolved , untill upon their rejecting of christ ( not onely of his person upon the crosse , but of his gospel in blaspheming and persecuting grace offered them ) the two staves of beauty and bands were broken and cut assunder , whereby god did breake the covenant that he had made with that people , and the brotherhood between juda and israel , that is , he did un church them , zach. 11. 10 , 11. &c. to 15. so that here is baptisme administred by john and christ , and yet men not received thereby into the church as members , for they were members long afore . againe , when any of those of jerusalem , judea , and the region round about jordan , that were baptised of john , or any of those , many more that were baptised of christ , were afterward joyned as members to those christian churches in judea , samaria , and galile , act. 9. 31. ( as no doubt many of them were ) they were not made members of those christian churches by being baptised , for they were baptised long afore by john and christ , so that those men were members of the jewish church , which was not yet dissolved , and were baptised afterward . and therefore it was not baptisme that made them members , either of the one church or of the other . 5. there are sundry inconveniences , which for ought we see will unavoidably follow , if we shall say that baptisme makes men members of the church ; for first , if baptisme be that which constituts the church , then baptisme may be dispenced by them that are no ministers , for extraordinary ministers , as apostles , and such like are now ceased ; and ordinary ministers have no power to dispence baptisme to any , but onely to them that are already members of the church , seeing their commission and power is limited to the church , and the flock of god over which the holy ghost hath made them overseers , acts 20. 28. besides , the church is before the ministers , seeing the power of choosing ministers is given by christ unto the church ; and therfore if baptisme be that which makes the church , then men must be baptised afore there be ministers to baptise them , and consequently without ministers . secondly , if baptisme rightly for substance partaked , doth make men members of the visible church , then it will follow that papists are members of the church : for they have baptisme so farre right for substance , as that it needs not be repeated . but mr. perkins teacheth that this baptisme proves not the church of rome , of which all papists are members , to be any true church of god , and gives sundry reasons for the same , in answer to them , that from baptisme rightly for substance administred in popish assemblies , would prove those assemblies to be true churches : exposit . of creede , in the article , i believe the holy catholique church . and surely for our parts , we doe not see how it will be avoyded , but if baptisme made men members of the visible church , either papists are members of the visible church , and the church of rome , of which they are members , a true visible church , or else we must renounce their baptisme as corrupt and false , even for the substance of it ; and so all such as shall be converted from amongst them , must be baptised againe , as not having had the substance of baptisme before : such dangerous consequences do follow from saying , that baptisme , rightly for substance partaked , doth make them that are so baptised members of the visible church . if any shall say , though baptisme do not make men members of the church , yet it proves them to be members as a cause , is proved by the effect , or an antecedent by a consequent : and therefore all baptised persons should be admitted to all church priviledges as members , whereever they become . we answer , that this will not hold neither , but suppose a man have received baptisme as a member of some visible church , which ought not to have been administred to him , had he not been a member , yet this doth not prove him to be a member still and so give him right to all church priviledges , though hee do remaine alwaies as a baptised person ; and the reason is , because his baptisme may remain , when his church fellowship may be dissolved , as that he can have no right to sacraments thereby : the church member-ship of a baptised person may be thus dissolved by sundry meanes . 1. by some sentence of excommunication justly passed against him for his sinne ; for that censure puts him away from the communion of the church , 1 cor. 5. 2. 13. and makes him as an heathen or publican , mat. 18. 17. so that in that case he can have no right to sacraments by his member-ship , though he still continue a baptised person . 2. by his voluntary departing from the church and the communion of the same when it is unjustly done , 1 ioh. 2. 19. iude 19. heb. 10. 25. in which case dr. ames resolves such schismaticks to be no members of the visible church , cas . cons . lib. 5. c. 12 q. 4. resp. 3. 3. by the dissolution of the church of which he was a member ; for church member-ship is in relation to a church , and therefore if the church cease , the membership must cease also ; relatum & correlatum quâ ●alia sunt simul , adeoquese mutuoponunt et tollunt . now a church may be dissolved , 1. by apostacie and gods giving them a bill of divorce thereupon , ier. 3. 8. when yet there may be in such a church some particular person or persons deare to god , who in such a case are bid to come out from such an apostate church , rev. 18. 4. hose . 2. 1 , 2. & 4 , 15 , 17. 2. by death , as by some grievous pestilence or masacre , &c. in which case one particular person surviving , cannot be counted a member of a church , when that church is extinct of which he was , and yet he remaines a person baptised if he were baptised afore . 3. if that be true which is taught by dr. ames cas . cons . lib. 5. c. 12. q. 3. resp . 2. that in some cases it is lawfull and necessary to withdraw from the communion of a true church ( which seemes to be agreeable to grounds of scripture , ephes . 5. 11. 2 chr● . 11. 14. ) then that will be another case wherein church membership is disanulled ; for how a man can be counted in that state a member of a church , when hee hath lawfully and necessarily withdrawn himselfe from the communion of the church , we do not understand . and this shall suffice for answer unto this point , whether baptisme make men members of a visible church , which as we conceive , is the scope and drift of this question . yet before we proceed to make answer to the next , something also may be said concerning some passages in your amplification of this fourth question . as first concerning those words wherein you aske , whether they that are baptised have not right , quoad nos , to all the priviledges of the visible church ( so farre as they are otherwise fit : ) concerning which words we may say , 1. that those words of your parenthesis ( so farre as they are otherwise fit : ) doe plainely imply , that in your judgement , though one hath received baptisme , yet this doth not give him right to the priviledges of the visible church , unlesse other things do concurre to make him fit , wherein we consent with you . now if this be so , then this seemes to be an answer to that which ( as we conceive ) is the maine intent of the question . for how can it be , that baptisme alone should give men right to the priviledges of the church ( as members thereof , as the question seemes to import ) when in the amplification of it , it is granted , that persons baptised have no such right , except other things doe concurre to make them fit : we doe not see how these things doe stand together . secondly , those words as farre as they are otherwise fit : ) as they seeme to imply that which contradicts the maine scope of the question ; so they are so generall and of such a latitude , as that when the question is answered the reader is still left at uncertainty : for if such a parenthesis may be annexed ( so farre as men are otherwise fit : ) then the like question may be applied to many other things besides baptisme , and would receive the very same answer , as in case of baptisme it would receive . as for example , if one should aske whether morall honestie or litterall knowledge in the scriptures , or historicall faith , or the use of reason , whether any of these doe not give men right to church priviledges , so farre as they are otherwise fit ? you know the answer would be , yea. for though none of these be sufficient alone , to give men right to the priviledges of the church , yet they are such as they that have them , have right so farre as they are otherwise fit , and so if it were granted that they that have received baptisme have right , as you say , to all the priviledges of the church , so farre as they are otherwise fit : yet as this doth not prove that baptisme alone doth give men such a right , so still it remaines to be considered , and more particularly declared , what those other things are that besides baptisme must concurre to make one fit ; and unlesse those things be expressed in particular , the question with such a generall qualification as is here set down , may be answered affirmatively , and yet the reader will be still in the darke , and as much to seeke as before . lastly , those words in the latter end of this question had need to be further cleared , wherein you aske , whether baptised persons have not right to all the priviledges of the church , quoad nos , untill they be cast out by excommunication ? for suppose an open blasphemer , a sabath-breaker , an adulterer , a drunkard , &c. that deserves to be excommunicated , be not proceeded against according to rule , but be suffered to continue in the church through bribery or other corruption of the times , would you say that such a person had right either before god , or quoad nos to all the priviledges of the church , onely because hee is baptised ? surely your words doe import so much , unlesse that parenthesis ( so far as they are otherwise fit ) may be any helpe in this case . and yet we hope you doubt not but such doggs and swine have no right either quoad nos , or otherwise , to the priviledges of the church as long as they continue in that state , although they have received baptisme , and although through the sinfull neglect of men they be not cast out by excommunication , as they doe deserve ; for if grosse sinners have such right to church priviledges , onely because they are baptised , then by what right can the church cast them out by excommunication , as you seeme to confesse that she may : for can she castimen out from such priviledges whereunto they have right ? doubtlesse such proceedings were not right , unlesse the church have such a transcendent power as the apostles never had , for they could do nothing against the truth but for the truth , nor had they any power for destruction , but for edification , 2 cor. 13. 8. 10. wherefore we dare not say such men have right to church priviledges ( quoad nos ) untill they be actually cast out , because before they be cast out , it must be cleare to the church , that they have no such right , or else she can have no lawfull right to cast them out . 1. infants with us are admitted members in and with their parents , so as to be admitted to all church priviledges of which infants are capable , as namely to baptisme ; and therefore when parents are once admitted , their children are thereupon baptised , if they were not baptised afore , as sometimes it falls out . 2. but whether they should thereupon be admitted to all other priviledges when they come to age , without any personall profession of faith , or entring into church covenant , is another question , of which by reason of the infancy of these churches , we have had no occasion yet to determine what to judge or practise one way or other . 3. but for the present this we would say ; it seemes by those words of your parenthesis ( being otherwise fit ) you do acknowledge , that children of church members are not to be admitted to church priviledges , unlesse they be fit , wherein we consent with you as counting it altogether unsafe , that idiots , franticks , or persons openly ungracious and prophane , should be admitted to the lords table , though they were the children of church members , and thence we may inferre the necessity of their personall profession of their faith , when they come to yeares , and taking hold of church-covenant , whereby we meane onely a renewing of covenant , or a new professing of their interest in gods covenant , and walking according to it , when they shall be adulti : for otherwise we do confesse , children that are borne when their parents are church members , are in covenant with god even from their birth , gen. 17. 7. 12. and their baptisme did seale it to them . but notwithstanding their birthright , we conceive there is a necessity of their personall profession of faith , and taking hold of church-covenant when they come to yeares ( though you seeme to thinke it not needfull : ) for without this it cannot so well be discerned ; what fitnesse is in them for the lords table and other church priviledges , as by this meanes it might ? and inasmuch as entring into church-covenant is nothing else but a solemne promise to the lord , before him and the church , to walke in all such wayes as the gospel requireth of church members , if they shall refuse to make any such promise , and shall be unable , or unwilling to make any profession of their faith , when it is required of them , this would be an evidence against them , of their unfitnesse for church priviledges , inasmuch as they openly breake that rule , 1 pet. 3. 15. be ready to give a reason of the hope that is in you with meeknesse and feare . what hope is there that they will examine themselves when they eat of that bread and drinke of that cup , 1 cor. 11. 28. who when others do examine them they are unable or unwilling to give answer ? or how shall we thinke that they will receive the lords supper worthily , or walke as becomes the gospel if they do refuse to professe or promise any such matter ? wherefore in this point we cannot but fully approve the practise of the reformed churches , among whom it is the manner as zepporus writeth , to admit children that were baptised in their infancy unto the lords table , by publique profession of their faith , and entring into covenant , consuetum est , saith he ut qui per aetatem , neque doctrina catechetica perfectum ad sacram coenam primum admittuntur , fidei confessionem coram tota ecclesiâ publicè edant , &c. polit. ecles . l. 1. c. 14. p. 158. that is , the manner is , that they who by reason of age and perficiency in the doctrine of catechisme are first admitted to the lords supper , should publiquely before the whole church , make confession of their faith , being brought forth into the sight of the church by their parents , or them that are instead of parents , at the appointment of the minister : and likewise should promise and covenant by the grace of god to continue in that faith which they have confessed , and to leade their lives according to it : yea and moreover , to subject themselves freely and willingly to the discipline of the church ; these words we see are full and plaine , that children are not in those churches received to the lords table without personall confession of faith , and entring into covenant before . 4. but how long children should be counted under age , and whether orphans are not to be admitted with their guardians ( which is your sixt quaery ) we should be willing to heare your judgement therein , as having of our selves hitherto had no occasion to search into those questions ; onely this we thinke , that one certaine rule cannot be given for all , whereby to determine how long they are under age , but according as god gives experience and maturity of naturall understanding , and spirituall ; which he gives sooner to some then unto others . such children whose father and mother were neither of them believers , and sanctified , are counted by the apostle ( as it seemes to us ) not faederally holy , but uncleane , what ever their other ancestors have been , 1 cor. 7. 14. and therefore we baptise them not . if you can give us a sufficient answer , to take us off from that scripture , 1 cor. 7. which seemes to limit this faederall sanctity or holynesse to the children whose next parents one or both were believers , we should gladly hearken to you therein ; but for the present , as we believe we speake , and practise according to our light . and if we should goe one degree beyond the next parents , we see not but we may goe two , and if two , why not 3. 4 20 , 100 , or 1000 ? for where will you stop ? and if we shall admit all children to baptisme , whose ancestors within a thousand generations have been believers , as some would have us , we might by this reason baptise the children of turkes , and of all the indians , and barbarians in the country ; for there is none of them but they have had some believing ancestors within lesse then a 1000. generations , it being farre from so much since noah and his sonnes came forth out of the arke . we do believe that all members of churches ought to be saints , and faithfull in christ jesus , eph. 1. 1. 1 cor. 1. 2. col. 1. 2. phil. 1. 1. and thereupon we count it our duty to use all lawfull and convenient meanes , whereby god may helpe us to discerne , whether those that offer themselves for church members , be persons so qualified or no : and therefore first we heare them speake concerning the gift and grace of justifying faith in their soules , and the manner of gods dealing with them in working it in their hearts : which seemes to be your first particular in this quaery . secondly , we heare them speake what they do believe concerning the doctrine of faith , so taking a tryall what measure they have of the good knowledge of the lord , as knowing that without knowledge men cannot well examine themselves and discerne the lords body , as church members ought to doe when they come to the lords table . and hereby also we would prevent ( as the lord shall helpe us ) the creeping in of any into the church that may be infected with corrupt opinions of arminianisme familisme , &c. or any other dangerous error against that faith which was once delivered to the saints , as knowing how easily such men if they were admitted , might infect others , and perhaps destroy the faith of some . and this seemes to be intended in your second particular . for both these we have our warrant as in generall , from those places which shew how church members ought to be qualified , that they ought to be saints , faithfull in christ jesus , &c. so in speciall from that , math. 3. 6. acts 19 18 , & acts 8. 37. 38. where men before they were admitted , made profession of repentance towards god , and faith towards the lord jesus christ ; for it is expressely said , that they confessed their sinnes , they confessed and shewed their deeds , they professed their faith in jesus christ the sonne of god. thirdly , when this is done , those that by manifestation of repentance and faith are approved ; as fit members for a church do openly professe their subjection to the gospel of christ , and to all the ordinances of god in that church , where now they joyne as members , which seemes to be your third particular in this quaerie . the distinction of particular churches one from another , as severall and distinct societies , seemes to us a necessary ground for this practise ; for without this kinde of covenanting , we know not how it would be avoyded , but all churches would be confounded into one , inasmuch as it is neither faith , nor intire affection , nor towne-dwelling , nor frequenting the assemblies that can make a man a member , or distinguish church members from other men : see the apologie . 4. your fourth particular in this quaerie is answered in the answer to the sixt position sent the last yeare : besides all these , we heare the testimony of others , if there be any that can speake of the conversion and godly conversation of such persons : which we judge to be a warrantable course from acts 9. 26 , 27. it is the second of your quaeries , what things we hold necessary to the being of a true visible church in generall : which being answere● ; this of the parish assemblies in england in particular , whether we hold all or the most of them to be churches , we conceive might well have been spared . they that now the state of those assemblies may make application of the generall to the particulars , if they have a calling therunto . yet because you are pleased to put us to this also , we thus answer . 1. that we doubt not but of ancient time there have been many true churches in england consisting of right matter , and compacted and united together by the right forme of an holy covenant . for mr. fox sheweth at large , that the gospel was brought into england in the apostles times , or within a little while after , acts & mo● . lib. 2. begining p. 137. where hee reporteth out of gildas , that england received the gospel in the time of tiberius the emperor , under whom christ suffered ; and that joseph of arin . athea was sent of philip the apostle from france to england , about the yeare of christ 63. and remained in england all his time , and so hee with his fellowes laid the first foundation of christian faith among the brittaine people , and other preachers and teachers comming afterwards , confirmed the same and increased it . also the said mr. fox reporteth out of t●rtullian , that the gospel was disperced abroad by the sound of the apostles into many nations , and amongst the rest into brittaine , yea into the wildest places of brittaine , which the romans could never attaine unto , and alledgeth also out of necephorus , that simon zelotes did spread the gospell to the west ocean , and brought the same into the iles of brittanie , and sundry other proofs he there hath for the same point . now if the gospel and christian religion were brought into england in the apostles times , and by their meanes , it is like there were churches planted there of saints by calling ( which is the right matter of churches ) and by way of holy covenant , as the right form : for that was the manner of constituting churches in the apostles times , as also in the times afore christ , as hath been shewed from the scripture in the apologie . and the footsteps hereof ( though mixed with manifold corruptions that have growne in aftertimes ) are remaining in many places of the land to this day , as appeareth by those 3 questions and answers at baptisme . abrenuntias ? abrenuntio ; credis ? credo : spondes ? spondeo : dost thou renounce the devill and all his works ? i renounce them all . dost thou believe in god the father & c ? i do believe . dost thou promise to walk according to this faith & c ? i do promise . for though it may be they conceived , that men entred into the church by baptisme , yet hereby it appears that their judgment was that , when men entred into the church there ought to be a renouncing of sin , and believing on christ , and an open professing of these things , with a promise to walk accordingly . secondly , though popish apostacy did afterwards for many ages over-spread all the churches in england ( as in other countries ) yet we believe god still reserved a remnant according to the election of grace amongst them , for whose sake he reserved the holy scriptures amongst them , and baptisme in the name of the trinity onely . and when god of his rich grace was pleased to stirre up the spirit of king edward the sixth , and queene elizabeth to cast off the pope and all fundamentall errors in doctrine and worship , and a great part of the tyranny of popish church government though at first some shires and sundry parishes stood out against that reformation for a time , yet afterwards they generally received the articles of religion agreed upon anno 1562. which are published and consented to by all the ministers endowed in every congregation , with the silent consent also of the people , and subscription of the hands of the chiefe of them ; wherein they do acknowledge no rule of faith or manners , but the holy scriptures ; no divine worship but to god onely ; no mediation nor salvation but in christ onely : no conversion by mans free will , but by gods free grace : no justification but by faith : no perfection nor merit of works , with sundry other necessary and saving truths ; all which containing the marrow and summe of the oracles of god wich are the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the eloquia des , concredited onely to the church . rom. 3. 1. 2. and which are that saving doctrine of truth , which is fruitfull in all the world where it comes , ●olo . 1. 5 , 6. and upon which the church is grounded and built , and which also it holdeth forth and maintaineth , 1 tim. 3. 15. ) we do therefore acknowledge , that where the people do with common and mutuall consent gather into setled congregations ordinarily every lords day , as in england they do , to heare and teach this doctrine , and do professe their subjection therunto , and do binde themselves and their children ( as in baptisme they do ) to continue therein , that such congregations are true churches , notwithstanding sundry defects and dangerous corruptions found in them , wherein we follow the judgement of calvin instit . 4. 1. 9. 10. &c. w●itaker , de notis ●cclesiae cap. 17. and many other divines of chiefe note : nor can we judge or speake harshly of the wombes that bare us , nor of the paps which gave us suck . thirdly , but inasmuch as grievous corruptions of latter yeares have greatly increased in some of those assemblies ( as we heare ) both in doctrine , in worship , and in the government thereof , besides those that were when some of us were there , and in former yeares : therefore we are not without feare ( and with griefe we speake it ) what things may come unto at length . if corruptions should still increase and grow ' they might come in time ( if the lord be not more mercifull ) unto such an height as unto obstinacy in evill , and to wilifull rejection of reformation , and the meanes thereof ; and then you know it might be just with god to cast off such utterly , out of the account and number of his churches ; so as never to walke among them any more : which we heartily pray the father of mercies to prevent that such a day may never be : but if ephesus repent not of her declinings , the lord hath threatned that he will come unto her quickly , and remove her candlesticke ; that is , he will un-church them , rev. 2. 4 , 5. and lukewarme laodicea shall be spewed out of his mouth , rev. 3. 16. and therefore it behoves such of them to repent , and reform themselves betime , lest the lord deale with them as he ha●h done with others . and it much concernes your selves ( in hearty love and faithfullnesse we speake i● , and so we desire you wou●d accept of it ) it very much concernes you ( deare brethren ) whil'st you live amongst them , to beare faithfull witnesse against the corruptions that are remaining in any of them , in respect of their constitution , worship , d●scipline and ministerie , l●st by any sinnefull silence or slacknesse of yours that should blow the trumpet and stand in the gap , the breach should be made wider , and the iniquity increase ; and lest men should flatter themselves in their sinnes , under the name and title of the true church , as the jewes thought themselves secure because of the temple of the lord , jer. 7. 4. 4. because you would know not onelie whether we count those assemblies to b● churches , but what wee would doe for joining in gods worship in them , if occasion served thereunto : we answer , that if we were in england , we should willingly joine in ▪ some parts of gods true worship , and namely in hearing the word , where it is truely preached in sundry assemblies there ; yea though we doe not know them to bee churches , or knew not what they were , whether true churches or no ? for some worship , as praier , and preaching , and hearing the word , is not peculiar to church assemblies , but may be performed in other meetings . mars-hill at athens was no church , nor the prison at philippi , and yet the word of god was preached and heard lawfully w●th good successe in th●se places , act. 17. and act. 16. how much more might it bee lawfull to heare the w●rd in many parish assemblies in england , in when gener●lly there is a professing of christ ; and in many of them : m●n , soul●s that are sincere and upright hearted christians , as any are this day upon the face of the earth ; and m●ny congregations indeed that are the true churches of jesus christ , see mr. robinsons treatise of the lawfullnesse of hearing the ministers in the church of england . 5. but why we durst not partake in their prescript lyturgie , and such ordinances though true , as are administred therein ; we gave you account the last yeare , in answer to the first and second position : as al●o in an answer to a discourse of that subject , penned by our reverend brother mr. ball. what we have done in our ignorance whil'st we lived amongst you , wee have seene cause rather to bewaile it in our selves here , then to it in others there . our answer to this question is this , 1. that we never yet knew any to come from england in such a manner as you do here describe ( ● the things you mention may be taken conjunctim , and not severally ) viz : to be men famously known to be godly , and to bring sufficient testimoniall thereof from others that are so knowne , and from the congregation it selfe , whereof they were members : we say we never yet knew any to come to us from thence in such a manner , but one or other of the things here mentioned are wanting : and generally this is wanting in all of them , that they bring no testimoniall from the congregation it selfe : and therefore no marvell if they have not beene admitted ( further then before hath been expressed in answer to quest . 1. ) to church ordinances with us , before they have joyned to one or other of our churches ; for though some that come over bee famously knowne to our selves to be godly , or bring sufficient testimoniall with them from private christians , yet neither is our knowledge of them , nor testimonal from p●ivate christians sufficient to give us church-power over them , which wee had need to have , if we must dispence the ordinances of church communion to them ? though it be sufficient to procure all due reverent respect , and hearty love to them in the lord. 2. if the things mentioned were all to be found , yet it w●u●d be also requisite ( if they would partake of church ordinances with us , and yet not joyne to any of our churches ) that w●● should know the congregation it selfe , from which they come , not onely to be a true church , but also what manner of one it is : for such persons cannot communicate with us in church ordinances in their owne right ; because they joine not as members in any of our churches ; but it must be in right of the congregation in england , to which they doe belong , and by virtue of the communion of churches , and so our admitting of them to communion with us in such a manner , and upon such terms , is not only an act of communion with the persons themselves , but also with the congregation of which they are : now as we cannot of faith admit men to church ordinances , which we believe belong only to church members ; unles we know the congregation of which they are members to be a true church . so somtimes a congregation may be so corrupt , that though it doe remain a true church , yet for the corruption and impurities of it , it may be lawfull and necessary to withdraw communion from the same ( for which dr. ames gives sundry grounds and reasons , cas . cons . lib. c. 12. q. 3. resp . 2. ) or at least to protest against some grosse corruptions therein . in regard whereof we had need to have some knowledge and information what that congregation is , with whom now we have church communion ; when in heir right wee admit m●n into communion , that wee may know how to admit such m●n , and what to require from them more or l●sse . and this together with that want of testimoniall from the congregation is one main● reason , why some few godly men that have come from england upon occasion , not with purpose of continuance here , but of returning again● ; have not beene received to church ordinances during thei● abode in the countrey ( though this we may say also , that we know not of any such that have requested to be received ) whereas ●uch as have come in l●ke manner from one c●u●ch to another m●ngst our selves , upon their requ●st have been r●ceived : the reason ne say is , because these churc●es are better knowne then the parish assemblies are . 3. but if men come from one church in this countrey to another with purpose there to stay , and not to returne to the church from whence they came , ( which is the manner of all , or the most that come from england ) they are not rec●ived into our churches ; but upon the very same tearmes , and in the same manner , as men are received that come from england ; viz : upon personall profession of their faith , and entring into church covenant , in that church to which they now come ( and the same we say of such as come from any of the churches in other countries ) and wherefore are they not received otherwise , because we renounce the church of which they were members as no true church ? not so , but because wee believe in matter of faith , ( such as is the admitting of members ) any true church may erre : and there may now bee seene some unworthinesse in the man which did not appeare when hee was admitted in the other church : and therefore no reason that the act of one church in the admitting of members or the like , should bee a binding rule unto another ; for all churches are left to their liberty to admit and receive such into their chu●ch ; as they shal find to be fit according to the rule of the word , and to refuse others , without respect of what they have bin before , whether members of this church , or that church , or of any church , or none : and therefore in this , our walking and practice , is alike towards one another , and towards others as it is towards yours . in which practise we are not alone , for the very same as mr. parker reporteth , is the manner of the reformed churches , amongst whom , no man is admitted for a member ; but upon personall profession of faith , and entring into church covenant , though it may be he have formally beene admitted in the very same manner in the church where he lived before , polit. eccles . l. 3. c. 16. 3. 4. p. 171. if the ground of this qu. were any doubt in your owne consciences concerning your owne way , there were no fault in propounding such a qu. for further light and satisfaction , if wee were able to give it . or if it did ari●e from any unnecessary intermedling of ours in your matters , so as to take on us to condemne or judge your present standing , when we have no calling thereunto , there were then reason why we should give account of our owne doings or sayings . but if it came from some men we should looke at it as a tempting question , tending onely to make matter , and pick quarrells ; and then we should leave it to them that framed it , to consider the ground of it ; and to fr●me their owne answer to it . as for us , we have alwayes been slow and loth to judge or condemne your present standing ; remembring the saying of the apostle , who art thou that judgest another mans servant , he standeth or falleth to his own master , rom. 14. 4. but now knowing you well ( reverend and deare brethren ) and your integrity , we thinke wee may lawfully and safely answer , and that wee would doe by promising a few distinctions , for explaining the termes of the question . 1. concerning the persons in the parish assemblies , which may be meant of such as the providence of god hath so dispos●d that they are free and at liberty : or of such as are bound , and it may be not sui juris , as wives , children under the government of parents , servants , apprentices , prisoners , sickefolkes , &c. 2. concerning the parish assemblies , which may bee meant either of such as want the preaching of the word or sacraments , or discipline , or any other holy ordinance of christ , or have many ordinances in them which are not of god , but of men : or else it may be meant of some others , which in both respects are reformed and pure , if there be any such . 3. concerning standing in them , which may be meant onely of habitation , and dwelling upon house or land within the precincts of the parish ; or else in conforming in judgement or practise to the corrupt ecc●esiasticall ordinances used in those assemblies ; and contenting themselves therewith . 4. concerning lawfull and safe ; where safety may be meant either of safety from sinne , or from danger by persecution , these distinctions wee judge necessary to bee premised , because your question is , whether wee count your standing in the parish assemblies lawfull and safe ; or how farre it may be so ? and so our answer is in 3. propositions . 1. some persons , and namely those that are not sui juris , may lawfully and without sinne ; though it may bee not safely without danger of persecution , continue such standing in the parish assemblies , as doe dwell within the pr●c●●cts of them , so long as they neither conforme themselves to the corruptions of men by such continuing of their standing , nor live in the neglect or want of any ordinance of christ through their owne default . 2. such standing in the parish assemblies , where a man shall , and must conforme to the corruptions of men , in doctrine or worship ; or the government of the chu●ch , is not lawfull for any to be continued in . 3. to continue such standing in the parish assemblies , as to live in the want of any ordinance of christ is not lawfull , nor can be done safely without sinne of them , to whom the providence of god doth open a doore of further enlargement . the first of these propositions wee suppose you doubt not of . the second is confirmed by many places of scripture ; and namely by such as these . though israel play the harlot , yet let not iudah offend , and come not yee to gilgall , nor go up to bethaven , nor sweare the lord liveth : ephraim is joyned to idolls , let him alone , hos , 4. 15. 17. come out from among them , and be ye separate saith the lord , and touch no uncleane thing , and i will receive you , 2 cor. 6. 17. be not partaker of other mens sinnes , keep thy selfe pure , 1 tim. 5. 22. come out of her my people , that yee bee not partakers of her sinnes , and that yee receive not of her plagues , rev. 18. 4. have no fellowship with the unfruitfull works of darkenesse , but reprove them rather , eph. 5. 11. ephraim is oppressed and broken in judgment ; because he willingly walked after the commandement , hos . 5. 11. wee ought to obey god rather then men , act. 4 19. and 5. 29. jeroboam made priests of the lowest of the people , which were not of the sonnes of levi , and ordained a feast in the fifteenth day of the eigth moneth , in the month which he had devised of his ●w●e heart , &c. and then the levites left their suburbs and their posessions , and came to iudah and ierusalem , for ieroboam and his sonnes had cast them off from executing the priests office unto the lord ; and after them out of all the tribes of israell , such as set their hearts to seek the lord god of israel , came to ierusalem to sacrifice to the lord god of their fathers , 1 king. 12. 31 32 33. with 2 chron. 11. 14. 16. vpon these and such like grounds of holy scripture we are perswaded that such standing in the parish assemblies , as this second proposition mentions , is not lawfull for any to be continued in . and we hope , you doubt not of the truth of this second proposition neither , though we are afraid that many christians , when it comes to practice , doe sinfully pollute themselves by partaking in the ceremonies , and other corruptions in the prayers , in the doctrine , and in the ministery remaining in sundry of those assemblies , whom it will bee your part whilst you live among them faithfully and by all good meanes to instruct and teach , and exhort , to save themselves from the corruptions and pollutions of the times and places wherin they live ; as well in this particular of church matters , and gods worship as in other things : wherein wee wish with all our hearts that our selves when time was , had been more watchfull and faithfull to god and the soules of his people , then the best of us were : the lord lay not our ignorance to our charge . the third proposition may bee made good sundry wayes , 1. by precepts , wherin we are commanded to observe all things whatsoeuer christ hath commanded , mat. 28. 20. to seeke the kingdom of god and his righteousnesse , mat. 6. 33. to yeild our selves unto the lord , and to enter into his sanctuary , 2 chr. 30. 8. and therefore we may not please our selves to live in the neglect of any ordinance which he hath instituted and appointed . 2. by examples , for the spouse of christ will not rest seeking her beloved untill shee finde him in the fullest manner , cant. 1. 7 , 8. and 3. 1 , 2. &c. and the same minde was in david ; as appeares by his heavy lamentation , when he wanted the full fruition of gods ordinances , and his longings , and prayer to be restored thereto , psal . 63. and psal . 42. and 84. although he enjoyed abiathar the high priest , and the ephod with him ; and likewise gad the prophet , 1 sam. 23. 6 , 9 , 10. &c. 1 sam. 22. 5. when good ezra in his journey from babilon to ierusalem , viewing the people at the river ahava found none of the sonnes of levi there , afore he would goe any further , he sent unto iddo a the place ca●iphia for ministers for the house of god , ezra 8. 15. 16. &c. and when being come to ierusalem they found by the law , that it was an ordinance of god to dwell in boothes , and keepe the feast of tabernacles in the seventh month , they presently set upon the practice thereof , in the appointed season ; when the like had not beene done in israel , from the dayes o● ioshua the son of nun unto that day , neh. 8. 14. &c. yea , and our lord jesus himselfe , though ●ee had no need of sacraments , to be to him any scale of remission or forgivenesse of sinnes , yet in conscience to the ordinance of god , ( that he might fullfill all righteousnesse , mat. 3. 15 ▪ ) and for our example , did both observe the passover , and likewise was baptized , and did eat with his disciples at his last supper . all which examples being written for our learning , doe shew us how farre wee should bee from contenting our selves to live in the voluntary want of any ordinance and appointment of god. 3. there is none of the ordinances of christ , but they are needfull and very profitable in the right use of them to the soules of his servants : and therefore they should not be neglected . to thinke of any of them , as things that may well bee spared ; and therefore to content our selves to be without them , is to call in question the wisdome of him that did appoint them , and to make our selves wiser then god. 4. our owne infirmities and spirituall w●nts are such , as that wee have continuall need of all the holy meanes which the lord hath appointed , for supplying what is wanting in us ; for correcting what is amisse ; and for our continuance and growth in grace . hee is a proud man , and knowes not his own heart in any measure , who thinkes he may well be without any spirituall institution and ordinance of jesus christ . upon these and such like ground , we hold i● not lawfull nor safe , for any christian that is free , to continue such standing in the parish assemblies where he cannot enjoy all the spiritual and holy ordinances of christ . and hereupon we do exhort you lovingly in the lord , to take heed that this be not the sinne of any of you , nor of any other , whom your example may embolden thereunto : for necessity is laid upon you , and upon all christians , by th●se and such like grounds of the holy word of the lord ; that neither you , nor others doe live in the voluntary want of any holy ordinance of christ jesus , but either ●et them up , and observe them in the places where you are ; or else ( if you bee free ) to remove for the enjoyment of them , to some place where they may be had ; and it may be of the two , rather this latter . for sometimes i● israel sacrifice to their god in the land , they shall sacrifice the abomination of the egyptians to the lord : and ●o say they , shall wee sacrifice the abomination of the egyptians before their eyes , and will they not stone us ? it is better therefore in such a case to goe into the wildernesse , and to do it there , exo. 8. 25. 26 , 27. hos . 2. 14. mat. 10. 23. as for that opinion that may be in the minds of some , that if any ordinance of goa be wanting , it is the sinne of them that are in authority , and they must answer for it ? but the people of god may without sinne , live in the want of such ordinances as superiors provide not for them . the answer hereuntois , that indeed the ordinances of god may more peaceably and quietly bee observed where the commandement and countenance of magistrates is afforded ; for then is fullfilled the saying that is written , kings shall bee thy nursing fathers , and queens thy nursing mothers , esa . 49. 23. and doubtlesse it is a great blessing , when god ( that hath the hearts of kings and princes in his hands , prov. 21. 1. ) doth incline them to favour , and further the service of the house of god , as somtimes he doth , even when themselves are alients and strangers . cyrus , darius , and artaxerxes , gave great countenance and incouragement to the jewes to build the house of god , that they might offer sacrifices of sweet savour to the god of heaven , and pray for the life of the king and of his sonnes , ezra 6. 8 9 , 10. i● which case good ezra blesseth the lord , that had put such a thing into the kings heart , to beautifie the house of the god of heaven , ezra 7. 27. and therefore kings and all in authority , should be prayed for , that we may lead a godly and peaceable life , in godlinesse and honesty , 1 tim. 2. 1 , 2. neverthelesse , the things that are ordained and commanded of god , the observing of them in a peaceable way ( yeilding out reverence to all that are in authority , and praying for them ) this observing of the ordinances of god cannot be unlawfull , for lack of the commandement of man , as appeares by the doctrine and pract●ce of the apostles , act. 4. 19. & 5. 29. and the approved practise of believers in their times , if they had neglected the ordinances of god and namely church ordinances , till they had had the commandement of magistrate therein , such neglect would have beene their grievous sinne , and for ought we know they might have lived and died without them , the magistrates at that time be●ng all either heathens or jewes , yet enemies ; and if church communion and the exercise of such ordinances , as christ hath appointed for his churches , was lawfull , and needfull , and profitable , when magistrates were enemies to the gospell ; and bee not so when magistrates doe professe the gospell , we doe not see but christians may sometimes be losers by having christian magistrates , and in worse condition , then if they had none but professed e●emies . besides this , if ▪ superiors should neglect to provide bodily sustenance for them that are under their charge ; we doe not thinke that any mans conscience would be so scrupulous , but hee would thinke it lawfull b●y all good meanes to provide for himself in such case , rather then to sit ▪ still and say , if i perish for hunger , it is the sinne of them that have authority over mee , and they must answer for it : neither can we tell how the conscience of any christian can excuse himself , if he thinks no● the ordinances of christ , as necessary for the good of his soule , as food is necessary for his temporall life ; or doe not willingly in this spirituall hunger break through stone walls as the proverbe i● , and runne from sea to sea to seeke god in his owne way , rather then to perish without spirituall food , because others provide not for him . and this is our answer to this eleventh quere , concerning your standing in the parish assemblies : which answer of ours , and the exhortation therein , as we pray the father of mercies to make effectuall by his blessing for those good ends , which wee intend therein , so wee cannot in the same , but reflect upon our selves and our owne wayes in times past ; as seeing not a little cause to judge our selves before the lord , as long as wee live , for our sinfull ignorance and negligence , when wee were in england , ●o observe and walke according to those rules of the word , which now upon occasion given by this qu. wee doe commend to your selves and other christians . the lord in mercy pardon our offences , and direct your selves and his servants in ●ur deare native countrey , both in remaining and removing to doe that which is pleasing in his sight . whereas this qu. in the first clause and last but one compared together speakes of believers out of the kingdome of god , and possibility of salvation , we conceive it is a contradiction , for those that are true believers , cannot be out of possibility of salva●on , but possibly may , yea most undoubtedly shall bee saved , joh. 3. 16. and 5. 24. the contrary whereof is to overthrow all the promises of the gospell , and with the papists and arminians to establish falling from grace . 2. for that saying , extra ecclesiam non est salus , wee conceive it cannot be universally true , if it be meant of the visible church , which in the new-testament is a particular congregation ; but onely being taken for the church invisible , or the vniversall church , which is the whole company of the elect in heaven , in earth , and not yet borne , ioh. 10. 16. and 17. 20. out of which elected company there is not one that shall be saved , nor any of the elect neither , but in the way of regeneration , ioh 3. 3. but as for the visible , we believe the old saying is true , there are many wolves within , and many sheepe without , joh. 10. 16. and therefore it cannot be universally true , that out of the visible church there is no salvation : inasmuch as all christs sheepe shall be saved , ioh. 10. 28. of whom yet notwithstanding there are some not joyned to the visible church : if the thiefe that repented on the crosse was a gentile , as it was possible he was ; then hee was uncircumcised , and then it will trouble a man to tell of what visible church he was : and yet there is no doubt but he was saved . the like may be said of iob and of his friends , of whose salvation we make no question , and yet it is a great question whether they were of any visible church or no , inasmuch as the visible church in those times seemed to be appropriated to the house and posterity of abraham , isaac , and iacob , of which line & race it cannot easily be proved that all these men did come , nor that they joined themselves in visible fellowship with that church . the centurion , mat. 8. 10. and the woman of canaan , mat. 15. were both of them believers and saved , and yet it doth not appeare that they were members of the visible church of the iews , which was the only visible church of god in those times . men of yeares ought to be believers , and so in the state of salvation afore they be joyned to the visible church , and therefore there may be salvation out of that church : for it is possible that such an one as being a believer is fit to bee joyned to the church m●y di● and depart this life afore hee can bee joyned , as that good emperour valenti●ian 2. died before hee could bee baptize● . and for your selves if you should thinke that baptisme makes men members of the visible church ; as is intimated in your fourth question : you may not then deny but there may be salvation out of the visible church : unlesse you will say that there is no salvation without baptisme , which we believe is farre from you to imagine . 3. we doe hold that so ; oft and so long as a believer doth not joyne himselfe as a member to some particular congregation or other , so oft and so long : he is without the church in the apostles sence , 1 cor. 5. for the church in the apostles sence , is a particular congregation ; for he writeth to , and of the church at corinth , which church was a particular congregation , 1 cor. 5 , 4 , & 14. 23. & 11. 17. 20. and having power of judgeing her own members ( as all visible churches have ) yet had no power of judgeing any , but such as were within that particular congregation , as all them they had power to judge , whether they were believers in christ or no. mr. b●i●● ( as we said before ) is very large and cleare in proving this position , that the churches instituted by christ and the apostles , were only such as might meet in one congregation ordinarily , and answers many objections to the contrary , di●ces . tryal . q. 1. 4. for the question it selfe , we hold that every believer ( if possibly he can ) is alwayes bound to joyne himselfe as a member to some particular congregation or other ; and yet not because , else he is a heathen and publican , or out of possibilitie of salvation , as this question suggests , but upon other grounds . 1. because of the commandment of god , cant. 1. 8. math. 6. 10. 33. 2. because willingly not to doe this is a secret disparagement to the wisdome of god that hath ordained ▪ churches with giving power and privilegdes therunto mat. 18. 17. 1 cor. 5. 4. and promises of his gracions presence to be with them and amongst them , mat. 18. 20. rev. 2. 1. exod. 20. 24. now to what end were all these , if believers should live and no● joyne themselves to some church ? these priviledges and promises would in such case be all in vain , and the mercy of god offered therin , unthankfully neglected . thirdly , voluntarily abstaining from joyning to the church is noted and condemned as a sinne , heb. 10. 25. and a signe of fearefull unbelievers , act. 5. 13. of the rest durst no man joyne unto them . fourthly , good men in scripture have been forward in practise this way , isay 2. 2 , 3. zach. 8. 23. act. 2. 41 , 42. and 9. 26. and have mourned with much bitternesse when they have been deprived of liberty so to doe , isay 56. 3. and ps . 42. and 63. and 84. fiftly , this joyning is a part of that order , and orderly walking which is required of believers , col. 2. 5. 1 cor. 14. 40. sixtly , if believers doe neglect this joyning , it is not onely a wrong to themselves , but also a great unkindnesse to god : for if one believer may doe this , why not another , and if two why not three , foure &c. and ▪ if all believers should doe thus , god should have no visible churches upon earth , unles he will acknowledge the assemblies to be of unbelievers churches : foras stones in the mountains are not an house untill they be joyned together , though they be digged up out of the quarry , and squared & hewn , and hereby are made fit to be joyned together , and so to become an house : so believers are not a church till they be joyned in holy covenant in some congregation , though the worke , of grace and faith in their soules have made them fit , and meete to be a church of god , which is the house of the living god : or as the humane soule and body are not a man unlesse they be united ; so christian or believers are not a visible church without visible union into some particular . congregation . mr. perkins having said that forth of the militant church : there are no meanes of salvation , no preaching of gods word , no invocation of gods name , no sacraments , and therefore no salvation ; concludes with these words ; for this cause every man must be admonished evermore to joyn himselfe to some particular church , being a sound member of the catholick church , expos . of creed in the article of the church ; and doctor ames gives 6. reasons , why every christian should ioyne himselfe to some particular church or other cas . cons● . l. 4. c. 24. q. 1. and in another place he hath these words . illi igitur qui ▪ occasion●● habent adjungendi sese ecclesiae , & ●am negligunt , gravissimè peccant , non tantum in deum ratione institutionis , sed etiam in suas proprias animas ratione benedictionis adjunctae , etsi obstinatè persistant in ipsa incu●ia , quicquid alias profitentur , vix possunt haberi pro fidelibus regnum dei verè quaerentibus . medul . theol. l. 1. c. 32. sect. 28. first , whereas this 13th . question speakes of private and illiterate persons into a church body combined , wee looke at this as an incongruous expression , if not a contradiction . for a company so combined as to make a church , are not fitly called private , ( though they be illiterate in respect of humane learning ) in as much as a church or a church-body , especially in times and places of peace and liberty , is a publike congregation and society : and the acts of communion which they have among themselves ( such as is the election and deposing of ministers , whereof the question makes mention ) are not private acts but publike or people-like . neither are literate or learned men therefore publike , because they are indued with humane learning , unlesse withall they be called to publike office or imployment in church or common-wealth : and therefore if illiterate be an exegesis of private , we conceive that exegesis is not good . secondly , whereas this question asketh whether it be lawfull and convenient that such a company should themselvs ordinarily examine elect , ordain and depose their owne ministers ? if ordinarily be as much as frequently , we answer three things . first , that if one church doe frequently come to such actions , that is , to take in and put out the same men , this is not without suspition of much levity and rashnesse in the people , or unfaithfulnesse or unworthy walking in the ministers , or both ; and therefore ordinar●ly , that is , frequent taking in and putting out againe in this manner , is as much as may be to be avoided . secondly , when such things doe often and frequently fall out , it is doubtlesse a judgement of god upon such a people to have so many changes in their ministers ; as was that of which it was said , three shepheards have i cut off in one moneth , zach. 11. 8. that people should be so oft as sheep having no shepheard ; for the transgression of a land many are the princes thereof , pro. 28. 2. so in like sort for the transgressions of a church many are the ministers thereof ; we meane , when they have many ministers , by the comming in and going out of the same men , or the removing of some and the taking in of others in their roome : for otherwise , it is a blessing of god , when a church is furnished with variety of ministers at the same time , acts 13. 1. & 21. 18. phil. 1. 1. thirdly , yet this word ( ordinarily ) doth seeme to imply , that in your judgement sometimes this may be lawfull and convenient to be done ; now upon the same ground on which it may be done sometimes , upon the same it may be done at other times , if there be just occasion . thirdly , for the assistance of the ministers of other churches , of which this question maketh mention , if this be onely by way of counsell or advice , we know nothing unlawfull or inconvenient in such assistance , because churches are as sisters one to another , cant. 8. 8. and therefore it is our practice in ordination of ministers , as also in removall of them , to have such assistance . but for authority and power , we know none that ministers have properly so called in any congregation or church , save that one , over which the holy ghost hath made them overseers : and therefore we thinke it not lawfull nor convenient , when a church is to ordaine officers , to call in such assistance ( viz. by way of authority or power ) of the ministers of other churches . fourthly , we judge it lawfull and convenient that every church of christ ( what ever their humane learning be , whether much or lesse ) should elect and choose their ministers : god doth not ( for ought we know ) give this power of calling their owne ministers unto such churches as have many learned men in them , and deny it unto others ; but gives it indifferently to every church , as they are a church , and so to one church as much as to another . if we thought you doubted whether the power of calling ministers were given by christ unto the church , we might here alledge many reasons for it ; but this being the constant judgement of the eminent lights of this age , and the former who have been studious of reformation , wee must hope ( till we hear to the contrary ) that your selves do not differ from them in this point . as for us , those grounds and reasons from the holy scripture which are alledged by 1 calvin , 2 zanchius , 3 mr cartwright , 4 dr ames , and ( 5 ) others doe satisfie us in this particular . ( 1 ) institut 4. 3. 14. 15. ( 2 ) de redemp . in 4. praecep . p. 1015. 1016. &c. who alledgeth bucer and musculus . ( 3 ) 1. reply p. 44. &c. ( 4 ) m●dul . theol. l. 1. c. 21. sect. 30 & cas . consc . lib. 4. c. 25. q. 5. ( 5 ) demonist . of disc . c. 4. fifthly as for that objection which seemes to be implyed in the word illiterate , that it should not be lawfull or convenient for a body to choose their owne ministers , because they are illiterate , or want men of humane learning among them , wee further answere thereto ; first , that among us when a company are to be combined into a church-body , ( as you speake ) there is usually one or other among them who doe not want all humane learning but have been trained up in universities and usually have been ministers and preachers of the word in our native countrey , and approved by the godly there ; and are here by the company that doe so combine intended to be chosen afterwards for pastors or teachers : and accordingly , after the church is gathered , are in due time elected and ordained into their places . secondly , but yet if there were none such among them at their first combining and uniting , we doe not see how this could hinder them of liberty to choose ministers to themselves afterward , when god shall send any to them that may be fit for the worke ; because this is a liberty that christ hath purchased for them by his precious bloud , and they that are fit matter to bee combined into a church-body , are not so illiterate but they have learned the doctrine of the holy scripture in the fundamentall points thereof ; they have learned to know the lord and their owne hearts , they have learned christ , the need they have of him , and of all the meanes of enjoying him , the worth that is in him , and the happinesse laid up for them in him : and therefore they may not be reproached as illiterate or unworthy to choose their owne ministers : nay , they have the best learning , without which all other learning is but madnesse and folly , and science falsly so called , 1 tim. 6. 20. and indeed of none account with god , nor available for direction and guidance in the affaires of the house of god , such as is this election of ministers , nor for the salvation of the soule in another world , 1 cor. 1. 19. 20. & 2. 14 ▪ job 32. 8. 9. though it may be , and is very usefull therewith . thirdly , you know and ( we doubt not ) doe abhorre as much as wee the spirit of those men that are proud of their owne learning , and vilified believers in christ for want thereof , saying , doe any of the rulers , or of the pharisees believe in him ? but this people which know not the law are cursed , john 7. 47. 48. 49. first , a company of fourty persons , or twenty , or lesse , is not such a small company , but they may be a church properly and truely so called , if there be nothing against them but this , that such a number may seeme not sufficient : we do not finde that god doth any where say , they must be above fourty , or else they cannot be a church ; and therefore no mortall man can justly say it : nay , rather that speech of christ , of two or three gathered together in his name , matth. 18. 20. doth plainly imply that if there be a greater number then two or three , whom they being not satisfied in the answere of an offendor may appeale unto , and in so doing tell the church , such a small number may be a church , and may have the blessing of his presence to be among them . besides , the time hath been , in the dayes of adam and noah , when there was not fourty persons in the world , and yet adams family in his time , and noah● in his , was in those dayes a church , if there was any church on earth . and if christ and his twelve disciples were the first christian church , it is too much for any man to say , that twenty or fourty is such a small company that they cannot be a church . secondly , for the matter of government , there is a difference between ability and right : in respect of the former , in as much as some cases are more difficult then others , and some churches of lesse spirituall abilities then others , and god doth not afford assistance and direction at some times so much as at others ; therefore in such cases it is requisite that churches should seeke for light , and counsell , and advice , from other churches : as the church at antioch did send unto the church at ierusalem in a question , which could not bee determined among themselves , act. 15. 2. but this is not because they have no right , but when they are not able . thirdly , as for right let it be considered how the church at antioch did long endevour to have ended that matter amongst themselves , before they determined to send to ierusalem , vers . 2. which shewes that they had power or right to have transacted that businesse among themselves , if ability had served ; or otherwise , that endevour had been sinfull , as being a presuming to doe that , whereunto they had no right . we conceive then that every church , properly so called , though they be not above fourty , or twenty persons , or ten , or the least number that you mention , have right and power from christ to transact all their owne ecclesiasticall businesses among themselves , if so be they be able , and carry matters justly , and according to the rules of the word . the power of the keyes , matth. 16. 19. among other things noteth ministeriall or delegated power of government ; and this power is committed by christ unto the church , as may appeare , if wee consider , first , to whom christ directed his speech in that place of scripture ; not to peter alone , but to all the disciples also , for to them all the question was propounded by christ , vers . 15. and ●eter answered in all their names . secondly , that he and they were not then looked upon as apostles , or generall officers of all churches ( for that commission was not yet given them ) but as disciples and beleevers , believing with the heart , and confessing with the mouth jesus christ , the rocke upon whom the church is built ; wherein as they did represent all believers , so in peter and the rest , the keyes are committed to all believers that shall joine together in the same confession , according to the order and ordinance of christ . and therefore afterward this power of government is expresly given to the church , matth. 18. 17. according hereunto in that description of the visible church , as it is instituted by christ in the new testament , rev. 4. the members of the church are seene by john in a vision sitting on thrones , cloathed with white rayment , having on their heads crownes of gold , vers . 14. now thrones and crownes are ensignes of authority and power , to note unto us that authority and governing power , which is committed by christ unto the church . doctor fulke hath this saying ; the keyes of the kingdome of heaven ( whatsoever they are ) be committed to the whole church , and not to one person onely , as cyprian , augustine , chrysostome , jerome , and all the ancient doctors ( agreeably to the scriptures ) doe confesse , against the popes pardons chap. 3. p. 381. and elsewhere he saith ; the authority of excommunication pertaineth to the whole church , although the judgement and execution thereof is to be referred to the governours of the church ; which exercise that authority , as in the name of christ , so in the name of the who●e church whereof they are appointed governours , to avoid confusion : against the rhemists on 1 cor. 5. sect. 3. and doctor whitaker hath these words : hoc est quod nos dicimus petrum gessisse personam omnium apostolorum ; quare hanc promissionem non uni petro , sed toti ecclesiae factam esse , & totam ecclesiam in illo claves accepisse . de pontif . roman . q. 2. c. 4. sect. 17. and in that booke hee is pregnant and plaine in this , that by the keyes is meant all ecclesiasticall power and jurisdiction , and that these keyes are given in peter to the whole church : the same is also taught by master parker polit. eccles . l. 3. c. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5 , 6. where he proves by many arguments , that every visible church ( which hee acknowledgeth to be no other but a particular congregation ) hath the power of all ecclesiasticall government and jurisdiction commited to it by christ jesus ; and answereth many objections to the contrary : and page 2 of that third book , making mention of foure opinions concerning those words of the keyes , and power of binding and loosing matth. 16. 19. the first of them that understand the pope onely to be meant thereby as peters successour : the second of them that understand it of the diocesan bishop : the third of them that understand those words as meant of the ministers but the ministers alone : the fourth of them that understand peter to represent the church in that place , and therefore that that promise is made unto the church : of these he refuseth the three first as unsound , and maintaines the fourth as onely agreeing to the truth . and master baine saith , every church by christs institution hath power of government , dioces . tryall quest . 1. p. 8. and hee tells us page 11. what hee meant by church : the word church ( saith he ) wee understand here not figuratively tataken metonymically for the place , syn●cdochecally for ministers administring ordinances ; but properly , for a body politicke standing of people to be taught and governed , and of teachers and governours : so that in his judgement every church ( properly so called ) hath power of government within it selfe : and by these words of his it may also be concluded , that all power of government is not in the elders alone for the power of government by church institution is in every church properly so called ; but ministers are not a church in propriety of speech , but onely figuratively by a synecdoche ; and therefore all power of government is not in the ministers alone , but a church properly so called is the body politique , consisting of people and ministers : but of this more may bee said in the next question . fourthly , for the matters of independency , whereof this question also makes mention : we doe confesse the church is not so independent but that it ought to dep●nd on christ both for direction from the rules of his holy word , ioh. 10. 27. act. 3. 23. and for the assistance of his holy spirit , to discerne those rules , and to walke according to them when they shall be discerned , ioh. ●5 . 5. and 16. 13. but for dependency upon men , or other churches , or other subordination unto them in regard of church government or power , wee know not of any such appointed by christ in his word . our saviours words are plaine , if a man heare not the chu●ch , let him beto thee as an heathen or publican . and his promise unto his church is plaine also , that whatsoever they shall binde on earth , shall be bound in heaven , &c. mat. 18. 17. &c. and the apostle bids the church deliver the impenitent sinner unto satan , 1 cor. 5. 4. 5 , 6. now when the man upon the churches censure comes to be in case as an heathen or publican , yea becomes bound in heaven as well as bound in earth , and also delivered unto satan , this seems to us to be such a firme ratification of the churches censure , as leaves no roome for any other ecclesiasticall power on earth to reverse or disanull the same , and so takes away that kinde of dependency and subordination of churches . nos plane dicimus ●cclesias initiò regi solitas esse à suis pastoribus , sic quidem ut nullis essent externis , aut ecclesi●s , aut episcopis subditae , non colossensis , ephaesi●ae , non philippensis , thessaloniensi , non h● romanae , non romanae cuiquam , se● paris omnes inter se juris essent , id est , sui omnes juris et mancipij whitak de pontif. roman . question 1. chapter 1. section 3. that is in summe . the churches were not dependent and subordinate to others , but all of them absolutely free , and independent . wee affirme saith master baine , that all churches were singular congregations equall in dependent each of other in regard of subjection , diocesse tryall . q 1. pag. 13. the twentieth chapter of mr. parker his third booke of eccles . politie , hath this title de summitate ecclesiae particularis . and the title of the 21. is , de paritate ecclesiarum , where he openeth and explaineth , and by many arguments and testimonies confirmeth what we hold of the independency and paritie of churches , to which learned discourse of his , we referre you for further satisfaction in this point . wee doe believe that christ hath ordained that there should be a presbytery or eldership , 1 tim. 4. 14. and that in every church , ●it . 1 5. acts 14. 23. 1 cor. 12. 28. whose worke is to teach and rule the church by the word and lawes of christ , 1 tim. 5. ●7 and unto whom so teaching and ruling all the people ought to be obedient and submit themselves , heb. 13. 17. and therefore a government meerly popular or democraticall ( which divines and orthodox writers doe so much condemne in morillius , and such like ) is farre from the practice of these churches , and we believe farre from the minde of christ . secondly , neverthelesse a government meerely aristocratical , wherein the church government is so in the hands of some elders , as that the rest of the body are wholly excluded from entermedling by way of power therein , such a government we conceive also to be without warrant of the word , and likewise to be injurious to the people , as infringing that liberty which christ hath given to them in choosing their owne officers , in admitting of members , and censuring of offendors , even ministers themselves when they be such ; as the church of colosse must admonish archippus of his duety , col. 4. 17. master parker you know hath 22. arguments to prove the superiority of the churches over and above her officers , polit. eccles . lib. 3. cap. 12. and master baine saith , if the church have power by election to choose a minister , and so power of instituting him , then of destituting also : instituere & destituere ejusdem est potestatis , dioces . triall p. 88. and againe , no reason evinceth the pope , though a generall pastors subject to the censure of a church oecumenicall , but the same proveth a diocesan bishop ( and wee may adde , and a congregationall minister ) subject to the censure of the particular church , pag. 89. and whereas it might be objected , then may sheep censure the shepherd , children their fathers , which were absurd . to this he answereth , that similitudes hold not in all things , naturall parents are no waies children , nor in state of subjection to their children : but spirituall fathers are so fathers , that in some respects they are children to the whole church . so shepherds are no waies sheep , but ministers are in regard of the whole church . 2. parents and shepherds are absolutely parents and shepherds , bee they good or evill , but spirituall parents and pastors are no longer so , then they do accordingly behave themselves p. 89. ( to the same purpose and more a● large is this objection answered by master parker , polit. eccles . l. 3. c. 12. p. 78. 79. and againe , if their owne churches have no power over them , it will be hard to shew wherein others have such power of jurisdiction over persons who belong not to their owne churches , p. 89. so that all power is not in the officers alone , seeing the officers themselves , if they offend , are under the power of the church . even paul himselfe though an extraordinary officer , yet would not take upon him to excommunicate the incestuous person , without the church , but sends to them exhorting them to doe it ; and blames them because they had not done it sooner , 1 cor. 5. which shewes that the exercise of all church power of government , is not in the officers alone : and therefore the lord iesus reproving pergamus and thyatira for suffering balaamites , nicholaitans , and the woman iezebel among them , and calling on them for reformation herein , rev. 2. sends his epistle , not onely to the angels of those churches , but also to the churches , or whole congregations , as appeareth rev. 1. 11. and also in the conclusion of those epistle , where the words are , let him that hath an eare heare what the spirit saith , ( not onely to the angels ) but unto the churches ; whereby it appeares , that the suffering of these corrupt persons and practises , was the sinne of the whole church , and the reforming of them , a duty required of them all ▪ now the reforming of abuses in the church , argues some exercise of church government , as the suffering of them argues some remissenesse therein ; and therefore it followes , that some exercise of church government was required of the whole church and not all of the angels alone . sure it is the whole congregation of israel thought it their duty to see to the reforming of abuses , when they appeared to spring up amongst them , as appeareth by their behaviour & practise when the two tribes and an halfe had set up the altar upon the bankes of jordan , ios . 22. for it is said , that the whole congregation of the children of israel gathered themselves together at shilo , to go up to warre against them , v. 12. and when phineas and ten princes with him , were sent to expostulate with them about the matter , it was the whole congregation that sent them , v. 13 , 14. and when they delivered their message they spake in the name of the whole congregation , saying , thus saith the whole congregation of the lord , what trespasse is this ? &c. v. 16. which plainely declares , that the whole congregation ( and not the elders or rulers alone ) thought it their duty to see abuses reformed and redressed , which could not be without some exercise of government . and when achan the sonne of ca●mi had committed a trespasse in the accursed thing , ●is . 7. it is counted the sinne of the whole congregation and such a sinne as brought a plague upon them all : for it is said the children of israel committed a trespasse in the accursed thing , v. 1. and god saith to ioshua ( not the el●ers have sinned , but ) israel hath sinned , and they have transgressed my covenant , and they have stolne of the accursed thing , and put it among their owne stuffe . v. 11. and for this , wrath fell on all the congregation of israel , and that man perished not alone in his iniquity , iosh . 22. 20. now why should not he have perished alone , but wrath must fall upon them all ? and why should his sinne , be the sinne of all the congregation , if the care of preventing it , and timely suppressing the same , ( which could not be without some exercise of church government ) had not bin a duty lying upon all the whole congregation , but upon the elders and officers alone ? doubtlesse the just lord , who saith , every man shall beare his owne burden , gal. 6. 5. would not have brought wrath upon all the congregation for achans sinne , if such government as might have prevented , or timely reformed the same , had not belonged to the whole congregation , but to the elders alone . and before this time all the children of israel ( and not the elders alone ) are commanded to put lepers and uncleane persons out of the campe , numb . 5. 1 , 2. by all which it appeareth , that all exercise of church government is not in the elders alone , but some power is in the people . and else-where he counts it no sacriledge for members of the church , though not in office , to handle those keyes , mat. 16. but rather a frivolous thing to thinke otherwise ; quasi absque sacrilegio , saith he , tractare claves priva●i nequeant , qui e●●s privatim tractare jubeatur . quoties fratres suos admonere , consolari , et aedificare . imò ve●ò est & publica clavium tractatio quam plebs christiana in unum coacta sine ullo sacrilegio ministrat , 1 cor. 5. polit. eccles . l. 3. c. 2. p. 8. and yet this is not a singular conceit of his or ours , but the concurrent judgement of many worthy witnesses of the truth in these latter dayes , who do with great consent hold the ecclesiasticall government to be of a mixt form compounded of all three estates , and that the people are not to be wholly excluded from having any thing to do therein . si velimus christum ipsum respicere , fuit semper ecclesiae regimen monarchicum : si ecclesiae presbyter●s , qui in doctrina et disciplina suas partes agebant , aristocraticum : si totum corpus ecclesiae quatenus in electione episcoporum et presbyterorum suffragia ferebat , it a tamen ut 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 semper à presbyteris servaretur , democraticum : sic partim aristocritum partim democraticum , partim etiam monarchicum est , semper que fuit ecclesiae regimen , whita . de pontif . rom. qu. 1. c. 1. sect . 2. the church ( saith mr. cartwright ) is governed with that kinde of government , which the philosophers that write of the best common-wealths affirme to be the best . for in respect of christ the head it is a monarchy , and in respect of the ancients and pastors that governe in common and with like authority among themselves , it is an aristocraty , or rule of the best men ; and in respect that the people are not secluded , but have their interest in church matters , it is a democraty , or popular state , 1 reply p. 51. and when dr. whitegift , from the doctrine of the authors of the admonition would infer this consequence , viz. that then the more that ruled the better estate it should be , and so the popular state should be the best : in answer hereunto he saith , i have spoken of this before , where i declared that the mixed estate is best , both by the example of the kingdome of christ , and also of this our realme , pag. 181. 182. and againe , whereas mr. dr. saith , that excommunication , and consequently absolution or restoring to the church again pertaineth only to the minister : it remaineth that i shew that the presbytery or eldership , and the whole church also , hath interest in the excommunication , and consequently in the absolution or restoring unto the church againe , p. 183. and againe , it is certaine saint paul did both understand and observe the rule of our saviour christ ( viz. that rule , mat. 18. tell the church ) but he communicateth this power of excommunication with the church : and therefore it must needs be the meaning of our saviour christ , that the excommunication should be by many , and not by one , and by the church , and not by the minister of the church alone , for hee biddeth the church of corinth twise in the first epistle , once by a metaphor , another time in plaine words , that they should excommunicate the incestuous person . and in the 2d. epistle , understanding of the repentance of the man , he intreateth them that they would receive him again : and therfore considering that the absolution of the excommunication doth pertain unto the churches , it followeth that the excommunication doth in like manner appertainunto it , p. 184. and again that the ancients had the ordering of these things , and that the peoples consent was required , & that the ministers did not take upon them of their own authority to excommunicate , &c. it may appeare almost in every page of cyprians epistles . in augustines time it appeareth also , that that consent of the church was required , p. 187. to these may be added , mr. fenner , who speaking of the ecclesiasticall presbytery , and of the businesse which the presbytery is to deale in , which hee distinguisheth into judiciarie , as deciding of doubts , and dispencing of censures . and extrajudiciary , as election , ordination &c. hath these words , atque haec sunt negotia quae praestari debent : in quibus per omnes ecclesias summa ecclesiastica potestas presbyterio demandata est , ita tamen ut in his quae maximi sunt momenti , et ad ecclesiae totius bonum velruinam maxime spectant , post 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 suam de his captum consilia ecclesiae denunciantur , ut si quid habeant quod consulant vel objiciant in ●●edium proferant : postea , autem auditis et assentien ibus ( nisi ad majorem senatum negotium deferri fuerit , necesse ad turbas vita●das sive componendas , quod tum cum major pars ecclesiae dissentit , faciendum est ) decervenda et pro decretis ecclesiis pro●onenda sunt , and then he declares what hee meanes by those matters maxim momenti , viz. excommunication , absolution , elections , and deposings of ministers and such like , sacrae the. lib. 7. c 7. wherin he plainly sheweth , that though the power of the presbytery be very great yet in things of greatest moment , as censures and elections , the people if they have any thing to counsell or object , have liberty to bring it in ; and afterwards matters are to be concluded when they have bin heard speake , and have given their consent , for which liberty and power of the people , he bringeth these scriptures , 2 chro. 30. 23. acts 1. 15. 23. 26. 1 cor. 5. 4. & 2 cor. 1. 6. 7. zanchius speaking of that question , per quos exerceri debet excommunicatio , answers thus , nempe per ecclesia● , seu per ministros ecclesiae nomine , eoque et cum consensu totius ecclesiae promissio illa , quaecunque ligaveritis , ad totam ecclesiam est facta , ergo &c. praeterea apostolus hoc expressius declaravit , 1 cor. 5. congregatis vobis , &c. alloquebatur autem totam ecclesiam . patres idem docent : cyprianus ad cornelium rom. episcopum seribit se multum laborasse apud plebem , ut par daretur lapsis p●enitentibus : si ergo non erat unius episcopi cum suo presbyterio solvere quempiam , sed requirebatur plebis eoque totius ecclesiae consensus : ergo neque ligari quispiam poterat , id est excommunicari , sine totius ecclesiae consensu . augustinus etiam contra donatistas ait , supersedendum esse excommunicatione quando tota plebs laborant eodem merbo , quid ita ? causam adfert , quia inquit , non assentientur excommunicationi . &c. satis aperte docet tunc temporis non solitum fuisse excommunicationem ferri in quempiam sine totius ecclesiae consensu ; et ratio est in promptu , quae enim adomnes pertinent eum consensu omnium fieri debent : ergo sine totius ecclesiae consensu excommunicari nemo debet . and then comparing the government of the church , to the roman common-wealth which had the dictators , the senate and the quirites , and shewing that the church government in respect of christ is a monarchy , in respect of the presbyters an aristocratie , and in respect of the people a democratie , he concludes thus , in rebus igitur gravissimis , quae ad totum corpus pertinent , uti est excommunicatio , sine consensu et authoritate totius ecclesiae nihil fieri debet , de redempt , in prae c. 4. pag. 983. &c. calvins words are these , cyprianus cum meminit per quos suo tempore exerceretur ( viz. potestas jurisdictionis ) adjungere solet totum clerum episcopo , sed . libi quoque demonstrat , sic praefuisse clerum ipsum , ut plebs inter●m à cognitione non excluderetur , sic enim scribit ; ab initio episcopatus mei statui sine cleri consilio & plebis consensu nihil agere , instit. 1. 4. c. 11. sect. 6. and againe , hoc addo , illam esse legitimam in excommunicando homine progressionem quam demonstrat paulus , si non soli seniores seorsim id faciant , sed conscia & approbante ecclesia , in eum scilicet modum , ut plebis multitudo non regat actionem , sed observet , ut testis & custos , ne quid per libidinem à paucis geratur , instit . l. 4. c. 12. sect. 7. those ministers that penned the christian and modest offer of disputation , doe say , that the pastor and elders that exercise ecclesiasticall jurisdiction , ought not to performe any maine and materiall ecclesiasticall act , without the free consent of the congregation , in propos . 8. the refuter of doctor downams sermon for the superiority of diocesan bishops , is plaine and full also in this point , in part 2. of his reply p. 104 105 , 106. where answering doctor downam , that counted it schismaticall novelty , that the forme of the church government should be holden in part to be democrattcall , and that his refuter for so holding was a brownist or anabaptist ; he not onely proves the power of the people from the scripture , and delivers his owne judgement , that the ecclesiasticall government is of a mixt forme , compounded of all three estates ; but for the same tenent , and that the church government is in part democraticall or popular , he alledgeth the testimonies of the centuries , of illyricus , of doctor fulke . doctor willet , cyprian , augustine , p. martyr , dr whitaker , and others : master baines his judgement we heard before in the former question . vrsinus speaking of that question . quibus commissa est potestas clavium ▪ hath these words : quibus denunciatio verbi divini delegata est , iisdem & potestas illa clavium ; quae verò denunciatio fit in ecclesiastica disciplina est totius ecclesie , ad totam enim ecclesiam pertinet disciplina & jurisdictio spiritualis , sed alio modo fit illa denunciatio in verbi divini ministerio , quam in ecclesiae judicio . and then telling how this denunciation is done in the ministery , and by the ministers of the word , he comes to declare how it is done in church censures : in ecclesiastico judicio ( saith he ) gratiae & irae dei non fit denunciati . ab uno aliquo privatim ▪ sed à tota ecclesia aut nomine totius ecclesiae ' ab its qui ad hoc delecti sunt communi omnium consensu . and a little after answering objections brought against the use of excommunication , he hath these words : potest concedi quod christus non intelligat presbyterium ( viz. in that place matth. 18. tell the church ) sed propriè sumat vocabulum ecclesiae ante christum jdaicae● , post christum christianae : sed in ecclesiae jurisdictione oportet aliquem esse ordinem , aliquos oportet esse constitutos ab ecclesia , alioquin esset 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and speaking of that question , quis ordo servari debeat in exercenda clavium potestate ( he saith ) principalis pars in excommunicatione est denunciatio , qua &c. atque haec denunciatio qua quis excommunicatur non est penes ministrum ecclesiae , sed penes ipsam ecclesiam , & ejus nomine fit , quia mandatum hoc à christo datum est ecclesiae ; nam ipse ait expressè , dic ecclesiae . and finally , speaking of abuses to be avoided , and cautions to be observed in excommunication , he hath such words in the fourth proposition , or rule there annext , as doe declare it to be his judgement ▪ that if excommunication should be passed by a few , without the consent of the whole church , such proceedings would be both oligarchy and tyranny : attentem expendatum ( saith he ) à toto presbyterio , probetur ab ecclesia , non suscipiatur privat â authoritate , ne ministerium ecclesiae convertatur in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & tyrannidem , in his comment upon the catechisme , in the place de clavibus regni coelorum . pareus delivering certaine porismata or , conclusions concerning excommunication , hath this for the fifth of them , quòd excommunicandi potestas non fit penes unum episcopum , vel paucos pastores , sed penes ecclesiam ; proindelicet pastores & presbyteri ordinis cau ▪ â primas habeant partes circa censuras ecclesiasticas , & per eos h● administrentur ; quod tamen citra consensum ecclesiae pastores ad exclusionem proced●re non debeant , alibi demonstravimus in 1 cor. 5. and a little after , answering stapletons objections that would have the power of excommunication to be in the bishop alone ▪ he brings in the case of cyprian , who could not absolve the lapsi without the people : cyprianus ( saith hee ) ad cornelium romanum episcopum scribit s● multum apua plebem laborasse ut pax daretur lapsis , quam si per se dare potuisset , non erat cur adeo in persuadenda plebe se fatigasset . so that in the judgement of pareus and cyprian all power of church government was not in the presbyters , but some power was in the people . musculus , although he thinke there be little use of excommunication and church discipline , where there is a christian magistrate , yet when it is to be used , he would not have the people excluded from having any hand therein , as may appeare by those words of his , where he speakes de disciplina ecclesiastica : hisce de rebus non constituet minister suo proprio arbitratu , sed erit ad institutionem earum director , & adhibebit suffragia & consensum sue plebis , ne quicquam invitae ecclesie imponatur . denique curabit ut plebs ipsa viros graves , timentes dei , ac boni testimonii deligat , quorum curâ & vigilantiâ disciplina ecclesiastica administratur , & si quid gravioris momenti accidat , ad ipsam ecclesiam referatur : loc. com . de ministris verbi dei , in tit . de potestate ministrorum p. 377. and afterward , in the latter end of that place , comming to speake of the deposing of unworthy ministers , he hath these words : quaeritur hic per quos disciplina ista administrari debeat ? respondeo , primum ecclesiae populus potestatem habens elegendi dignum ministrum , habet etiam ( teste cypriano ) potestatem indignum recusandi : deinde qui judices sunt censoresque morum in ecclesia ex officio tenentur redargnere peccantem ministrum , si duobus aut tribus testibus fide dignis coram ecclesia dei convictus fuerit . tertiò , iidem cum consensu & suffragiis plebis deponent ministrum , vel ad ltempus , vel in universum , vel excommunicabunt tandem juxta quaitatem peccati vel defectus illius , p. 429. doctor ames saith , potestas hujus disciplinae ( viz. of excommunication ) quoad jus ipsum pertinet ad ecclesiam illam in communi , cujus membrum est peccator : ad illos enim pertinet ejicere , ad quos pertinet primò admittere , & corporis totius interest ex aequo membrorum conservatio vel amputatio , cum ecclesi● idcirco consensu ( eoque magistratu non permittente tantum , sed & approbante & constituente ) est executioni mandanda . medul . theol. l. 1. c. 37. sect. 26. lastly , master parker observing a distinction betweene power , and the dispencing of power ; that the one is in the church and the other in the presbyters , hath these words : neque tamen dispensatio omnis , omneque exercitum est penes rectores solos , sed juxta temperamentum formae partim aristocratice , partim democraticae de manda●ae rectoribus suis ecclesi● , que ipsa per se obire satis commodè nequit , retinente vero dispensationem illam illudque exercitium quod & ipsi convenit , & pertinet ad ejus lignitatem , authoritatem , & libertatem à christo donatam . posit . eccles . l. 3. c. 7. and elsewhere he saith , imo vero est & publica clavium tractatio , quam plebes christiana in unum coacta , sine ullo acrilegio administrat . polit. eccles . l. 3 c. 2 p. 8. these testimonies we thought good to produce in this question , lest any should thinke that to give any church power of government to the people , were some singular opinion of ours , swerving from the truth , and disallowed by orthodox writers of the reformed churches ; and no doubt but besides these here cited , the same is taught by ●thers also , whom now we spare to alledge , intending onely ●hese few for a taste instead of many . 2. and therefore when this question demandeth whe●her we give the exercise of all church power of government to the whole congregation , or to the presbyters thereof alone ? our answer is , neither thus nor so , neither all to ●he people excluding the presbytery , nor all to the presbytery excluding the people . for this were to make the government of the church either meerly democraticall , or meerly aristocraticall , neither of which we believe it ought to be . 3. whereas this question demandeth to know what acts of government the presbyters may doe more then any other may doe , and to have those particular acts mentioned : this seemeth to us to be a very large demand , for who is able to mention all the particular acts of government , which any one governour may performe in his time , especially if he continue long in his place ? but if your meaning in this point be not of the individualls , but of the species or kinds , yet even there also it is much to require the particular mentioning of all ; yet to give you a taste take these . the calling of assemblies and dismissing of the same againe ; the ordinary preaching of the word , which is done by way of office ; and being the peoples mouth unto god in prayer ; the dispensing of baptisme , and the lords supper : the permitting of any to speak in an orderly way ; and againe enjoining silence : the putting of matters to vote , and pronouncing of sentence in the censure of offendors , or receiving in of penitents after their fall , and blessing of the people in the name of the lord ; these are acts of church government , which the presbyters may doe according to the word and another member may not do without breach of order and presuming above his place . 4. it is also here demanded , what the presbyters may do without the particular consent of the rest ? to which wee answer , that when they doe what the lord christ ( whose stewards they are ) by his word requires of them in their places , this should not be without the consent of the rest , ●or the rest of the church ought to consent thereto : christs sheep ought to heare his voice , iohn 10. 27. and to obey them that speak unto them in his name , heb. 13. 17. and if any man should in such case willfully dissent , the church ought to deale with such an one , for not consenting to the will and waies of christ , or else they shall all be guilty of the sinfull dissent of such an one . so that this passage ( if it be meant of presbyters doing their duty ) without the consent of the people , goes upon a supposall ( in respect of the people ) of that which never ought to be , neither are wee to suppose but that there may be rule when the elders and brethren doe not dissent nor are divided one from another : the multitude of them that believed in the first christian church at ierusalem , were of one heart and of one soule , a l. 4. 32. yet none needs to doubt , but there was rule and government amongst them , when yet their agreement was such , that the apostles and flders did nothing without the full consent of the rest . it is a miserable mistake either to thinke that in the church of christ the elders and brethren must needs dissent one from another , or if they all consent , that then there can be no ruling but against the peoples minde . they were none of the best shepheards to their flocks unto whom the lord saith , with force and rigour have you ruled them . ezech. 34. 4. as for doing any thing in their places ▪ which the word of christ , the lord and master of the church , commandeth not , nor alloweth such things ▪ they neither ought to do nor ought the church to consent unto them if they should ; for that were to make themselves partakers of their rulers sinnes , and so to bring judgement upon them all , as when the priests did wickedly beare rule , and the people loved to have it so , ieremiah 5. 31. 5. lastly , this question demandeth how , and over whom in those acts of government , which are done by the elders more then by other members , or without the consent of the rest , the presbyters doe rule in propriety of speaking more then the rest of the congregation ? wherein are sundry particulars . 1. how they rule ? whereunto wee answer , that neither the elders nor the people doe rule with lordly and princely rule , and soveraigne authority and power ; for that is proper to christ over his church : who is the onely lord , 1 cor. 12. 5. and king and lawgiver that is able to save and to destroy , isa . 33. 23. psal . 2. luk. 19. 27. jam. 4. 12. the elders are forbidden to be lords over gods heritage , 1 pet. 5. 3. or to exercise authority as the kings and princes of the earth doe , matth. 20. 25 , 26. luk. 22. 25 , 26. they are not so to rule , as to doe what themselves please , but they must do whatsoever christ hath commanded , mat. 28. 20. mr. baine sheweth from these words there are diversities of ministeries , but one lord , 1 cor. 12. 5. that it is contrary to the scripture that there should be in the church more lords then one : ( and saith he ) look as great lords have in their houses ministers of more and lesse honour , from the steward to the scullery , but no lord-like or master-like power in any besides themselves : so is it with christ and his church , which is the house of god , wherein hee is the lord , apostles and others having more or lesse honourable services , but no masterlike power over the meanest of their fellow servants : on ephes . 1. 22. p. 395. and elsewhere he saith , no minister of the word hath any power but ministeriall in the church , the power of the apostles themselves and evangelists is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , acts 20. 2 tim. 4. yea such a service as doth make the ministers having it so servants , that they are no way lords ; many ministers , one lord ; we preach christ iesus the lord ; our selves your servants for iesus sake , dioces . tryall . q. 2. p. 74. the elders are to rule as stewards , mat. 24. 45. luke 12. 42. as shepheards , act. 20. 28. as captaines , guides , leaders or overseers , by going before the people , and shewing them the word and way of the lord , 1 tim. 3. 1. 5. & 5. 17. 1 thes . 5. 12. h●b . 13. 17. 2. how they rule more then the rest of the congregation do ? whereto the answer is , that this is more then the rest of the congregation doe in these acts , even as acting is more then consenting , and as it is more to be a steward over of the house then one of the household , or to be a guide or leader , then to be guided or led . 3. over whom they doe rule ? even over the whole church in generall , and every member in particular , even all the flocke over which the holy ghost hath made them overseers , act. 20. 28. 1 pet. 3. 2. the rule is expresse and plaine that women ought not to speake in the church , but to be in silence , 1 cor. 14. 34. 1 tim. 2 11 , 12. and therefore they ought not to vote in church matters ; besides voting imports some kind of government , and authority and power : now it is not government and authority , but subjection and obedience which belongs unto women , by the rule , and so is the practice of women amongst us . church matters ought not to be determined meerly by multitude or plurality of votes , but by rules from the word of christ , whose will ▪ ( and not the will either of the major , or minor part of men , ) is the onely rule and law for churches , iam. 4. 12. isa . 33. 22. mat. 23. 8 , 9. exod. 23. 2. 21. 22. for our practice among us , the major part of the church , yea usually the whole church doth consent and agree in one minde , and one judgement , and so gives a joint unanimus vote ; and the rule requires it should be so rom. 15. 6. and the example of the primitive apostolike churches , where things were carried ( nor meerly by the major or minor part , the rest dissenting , but ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or with one accord . act. 1. 14. & ● . 46 & 4. 24. & ● . 12. & 15. 25. so that in this sence , matters with us are carried according to the vote of the major part , that is , with the joint consent of the whole church , but yet because it is the minde of christ . but it may be your meaning is in this question to take it for granted that the churches will be divided in their votes , and to know what course we take at such times : but if churches lay aside their owne affections , and give attendance to the rule , and be ( as all churches ought to be ) men of humble spirits , and sincere , and withall depend on christ their head and king for guidance , in their worke , we know no necessity of such a supposall , that they must needs be divided in their votes , especially considering what promises he hath made unto his church , of godly concord and agreement among themselves , and of his owne gracious presence in the midst of them , ier. 32. 39. zeph. 3. 9. mat. 18. 20. which promifes we believe are not in vaine . neverthelesse , we deny not but through the corruptions & distempers of men , some dissention may arise for a time in a true church , as it was in the church at corinth : and if any such thing fall out among us ( which we blesse god is not often ) then before matters be put to the vote , our course of proceeding is after this manner . if the elders and major part of the church consent in one conclusion , yet if any brother dissent , he is patiently heard , and his alledgements of scripture or good reasons are duely weighed : if it appeare that his judgement is according to the rule , the whole church will readily yeeld , though before they were otherwise minded . but if it appeare they who dissent from the major part , are factiously or partially carried , the rest labour to convince them of their error by the rule , if they yeeld , the consent of all comfortably concurreth in the matter ; if they still continue obstinate , they are admonished , and so standing under censure , their vote is nullified . if they without obstinate opposition of the rest , doe dissent still , yet referre the matter to the judgement of the major part of the body they are not wont to proceed to sentence ( if the matter be weighty as in excommunication ) till the reasons on both sides have bin duly pondered , and all brotherly means have been used for mutuall information and conviction . if the difference still continue the sentence ( if the matter be weighty ) is still demurred , even till other churches have been consulted with , who in such a case will send their elders to communicate their apprehensions and light , which they do not pro imperio , binding the church to rest in their dictates but by propounding their grounds from the scripture . these courses with gods presence and blessing ( which usually accompanieth his ordinance ) faithfully taken and followed , will prevaile either to settle one unanimous consent in the thing ▪ or at least to preserve peace in the church by the dissentors submission to the judgement of the major part , though they see not light sufficient to warrant them to act in the businesse : such subjection is according to the rule , ephes . 5. 21. 1 pet. 5. 5. if the church or the elders should refuse the testimony of other churches according to god , they will ( after brotherly admonition and due patient waiting ) deny them the right hand of fellowship , till they shall give better evidence of their subjection to the gospel of christ . but thanks be to god we never had occasion of such withdrawing communion of one church from another , though now and then ( as need requireth ) churches send to other churches for their counsell and advice . meanes to preserve the churches in unitie and verity , and to reforme any that may erre , thankes bee to god we have sundry . first , the holy scriptures , which are a perfect rule for doctrine and practise , 2 tim. 3. 15 16. 2 pet. 1. 19. psal . 19. 7 , 8. secondly , the ministery appointed by christ , viz. of pastors , teachers , elders , and deacons , ephes . 4. 11 , 12. 1 cor 12. 28. 1 tim. 5. 17. 1. tim. 3. 1 , 2. &c and vers . 8. and in both these we have frequently holden forth unto us the commandement of god , wherein he requires churches to bee of one mind and one judgement in the truth , 1 cor. 1. 10. & 2. 13. 11. ephes . 4. 3. & phil. 1. 27. & 2. 1. 2. and his promise to lead his people into all truth , and holy agreement therein , jer. 32. 29. isa 11 6 , 7 &c. zeph. 3. 9. ioh. 16. 13. with many motives and rules from scripture for continuing in the said truth and love . now faith makes use of these promises and submits to these precepts and exhortations , and so both these being mixt with faith are profitable meanes by the blessing of god for that end aforesaid , heb. 4. 2. as these churches have found by experience , for these yeares since our comming into this countrey : and any other meanes sanctified of god for the aforesaid end , we hope we should be glad with thankfull hearts to improve and make use of as the lord shall help . as for a platforme of doctrine and discipline which you mention , as one meanes hereunto , if thereby you meane no more but a confession of faith of the holy doctrine which is according to godlinesse , we know nothing but it may be lawfull and expedient in some cases for any particular person that hath received the gift to doe it ; or any church , or a●l the churches in any christian common-wealth , to compile and set forth such a platforme . the practise of those churches , whose confessions are contained in that booke called the harmony of confessions , as also of master robinson at leiden , and others of our nation in other parts in the low-countries , who have published such platformes , we see no reason to condemne or disallow : neither count we it unlawfull or inexpedient for any church or churches , or person or persons in the countrey , upon just occasion to doe the like . but if your meaning be of a platforme to be imposed by authority upon others , or our selves , as a binding rule of faith and practice , so that all men must believe and walke according to that platforme , without adding , altering , or omitting ▪ then we are doubtfull whether such platformes be lawfull or expedient . for if the doctrine contained therein doe in any particular swerve from the doctrine contained in scripture then the imposing of them is so far forth unlawfull ; and if they be according to it , then they may seeme needlesse , in as much as the forme of wholesome words contained in scripture is sufficient . which reason against such platformes , makes nothing against sermons or preaching , though sermons must be according to the doctrine contained in scripture , because preaching is an ordinance of god and therefore not needlesse ; which we cannot say of such platformes . besides , as they are not necessary , so they may be a snare unto men , and a dangerous temptation of attending more to the forme of doctrine delivered from the authority of the church , and the imposers , then to the examining thereof according to the rule of scripture ; and so their faith may by this meanes stand in the wisedome or will of man , rather then in the power of god , as if men had dominion over their faith ; which things ought not so to be , 1 cor. 2. 5. & 2. 1. ver . christians have liberty from god to search the scriptures , and try all things , and hold fast that which is good , act. 17. 11. ioh. 5. 39. 1 thess . 5. 21. but the foresaid imposing of platformes and confessions compiled by men , doth seeme to abridge them of that liberty ; and if it be any meanes of unity , yet it may be a dangerous hinderance of some verity and degree of truth as binding men to rest in their former apprehensions and knowledge , without liberty , to better their judgement in those points , and shutting the doore against any further light which god may give to his best servants , and most discerning , beyond what they saw at first : and therefore we doubt such imposed platformes are not lawfull , or at least wise not expedient . the consociation of churches into classes and synods we hold to be lawfull and in some cases necessary ; as namely in things that are not peculiar to one church , but common to them all : and likewise when a church is not able to end any matter that concernes onely themselves , then they are to seeke for counsell and advice from neighbour churches ; as the church at antioch did send unto the church at ierusalem , acts 15. 2. the ground and use of classes and synods , with the limitations therein to be observed , is summarily laid downe by doctor ames , medul . theol. l 1. c. 39. sect. 27. unto whom we do wholly consent in this matter . but when you speake of doing no weighty matter without the consent and counsell of a classes , we dare not so far restraine the particular churches as fearing this would be to give the c●asses an undue power and more then belongs unto them by the word ; as being also an abridgment of that power which christ hath given to every particular church , to transact their owne matters ( whether more or lesse weighty ) among themselves ( if so be they be able ) without such necessary dependence upon classes , as we have shewed before in answer to q. 14. sect. 3. & 4. of that answere . and master parker testifieth , that in genevah , and in the low-countries , where they have some use of classes , yet it cannot bee said that their particular congregations are absque potestate omni in rebus grandtoribus , ut in excommunicatione ; the particular churches are not without power in the more weighty matters , as in excommunication , polit. eccles . li. 2. c. 36. sect. 11. p. 310. and master baine sheweth the same , saying , they have power of governing themselves , but for greater edification voluntarily confederate , not to use or exercise their power but with mutuall communion , one asking the counsell and consent of the other , dioces . triall q. 1. p. 21. and a little after geneva made his consociation , not as if the prime churches were imperfect , and to make one church by this union ; but because though they were intire churches , and had the power of churches , yet they needed support in exercising of it , &c. which is the very same that wee said before in q. 14 viz. that all churches have right of government within themselves , but some had need of counsell and advice of others , because they are of lesse ability to transact their owne matters of themselves . and master parker in the same place afore alledged in the page immediately precedent , clearly sheweth against doctor downham , doctor sutcliffe , and others , that those particular congregations which have presbyters of their owne , with power within themselves , are the most perfect , and are precisely formed juxta formam illam quae in verbo patefacta est , according to that forme which is revealed in the word ; whereas others which have not the like are more defective and imperfect . and if this be so , then to binde churches to do no weighty matters without the counsell and consent of classes , were to blinde them to bee imperfect . and for synods , if they have such power that their determination shall binde the churches to obedience ( as you speake ) it is more then we yet understand . indeed bellarmine makes bishops in a councell or synod to be judges ; and that standum sit corum sententiae , quia ipsi sic statuerunt , quomodo statur sententia praetoris in causis politicis ; that is , either to obey or suffer : de concil . & eccles . l. 1. c. 18. but the orthodoxe writers do not consent to him therein ; for in their judgement the sentence of a councell or synod is onely inquisitio quaedam & dictio sententiae ministrato●ia & limitata , ita ut tantum valeat decretum concilii quantum valeat ejus ratio , as doctor ames hath it in his bellarminus enervatus , upon that place of bellarmine : that is , the sentence of a synod is onely a certaine enquiring and giving of sentence by way of ministery , and with limitation ; so that the decree of the councell hath so much force as there is force in the reason of it . and junius expresseth it thus ; sententia concilii per se ipsam suasionis non coactionis est judicium ministeriale , non authoritatem , per se necessitatemque adferens , animadvers . upon bellarmine in that place : that is , the sentence of a councell is of it selfe onely of advice , not of compulsion or constraint , and brings with it a judgement ministeriall , not authority of it selfe nor necessity ; whereunto we doe wholly consent . as for that clause in this question , that the determination of a synod should binde if not to obedience , yet to peaceable suffering , we know not what sufferings those should be : for punishments in purse or person , in respect of the body or outward man , are not to be inflicted by synods , but by civill magistrates ; and church-censures of excommunication , or the like , belong to the particular church of which an offendor is a member , out of the communion whereof a man cannot be cast , but onely by his owne church . onely christ hath authority to make lawes for the government of each particular church , and the members thereof , and h●s lawes doe oblige all the members , and may not be omitted without sinne , jam. 4. 12. jsa . 33. 22. ● mat. 23. 8 , 9 10. ●ct . 3. 23. but for particular churches , they have no power to make lawes for themselves or their members , but to observe and see all their members observe those laws which christ hath given and commanded mat. 28. 20. deu● . 33. 3. iohn 10. 27. if any church shall presume further , they goe beyond their commission , and in such case their ecclesiasticall lawes may be omitted without sinne , nay it would be sinne to be subject to them col. 2. 20. to walke after them , hos . 5. 11. to be such servants of men as not to stand fast in the liberty wherewith christ hath made us free , 1. or . 7. 23. gal. 5. 1. the outward calling of a minister consisteth properly and essentially in election by the people , as doctor ●mes sheweth , cas . cons . l. 4. c. 25. q. 6. and this election is so essentiall , that without it the ministers calling ( if you speak of an ordinary church officer ) is a nullity ; and therefore mornay , that learned noble man of france , approveth that saying of chrysostome , election by the people is so necessary , as that without it there is neither altar , nor church , nor priest-hood , where ( omitting other things ) it appeares to be their judgement , that without election by the people , the ministery is void ; and mornay addeth of his owne , concerning the bishops amongst the papists , that they were nullá plane 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , nulla proinde , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , for the one presupposed the other , no imposition seeing without election , in his booke of the church , c. 11. p. 375. yet sometimes the peoples acceptance and approbation afterward may supply the want of election at the first , as iacobs after consent and acceptance of lea , made her to be his wife , though hee chose her not at the first . and by this we hold the calling of many ministers in england may be excused , who at first came into their places without the consent of the people . if ordination by imposition of hands , were of the essence of a ministers calling then in those churches , where such ordination is not used , their ministers should want a lawfull calling , which were an hard sentence against many ministers in scotland , where ( as is reported ) this ordination is not thought necessary , and therefore used or omitted indifferently . wee looke at ordination by imposition of hands , as a solemne investing of men into their places , whereto they have right and calling by election , like to the inauguration of a magistrate in the common-wealth , yet necessary by divine institution . 1 tim. 4. 14. but not so necessary as if the ministers calling were a nullity without it . essentia ipsa vocationis , in electione legitima consistit ; ordinatio pendet ab electione , sicut coronatio principi● , aut magistratus inauguratio , ab electione , successione , aut aequivalente aliqua constitutione . ames bellarm. enervat . lib. 3. de clericis , c. 2. sect. 3. that is , the essence of a ministers calling consists in lawfull election , ordination depends upon election , as the coronation of a prince , or the inauguration of a magistrate , depends upon election , succession , or some other constitution aequivalent . and againe , ritus impositionis manuum non est absolute necessarius ad esse pastoris , non magis quam coronatio ad esse regis , aut celebratio nuptiarum ad earum esse . sect . 10. that is , the right of imposition of hands is not absolutely necessary to the essence of a pastor , no more then the coronation to the essence of a king , or the celebration of marriage to the essence thereof . ordination of ministers is not a private action but publique , and ought to be done publiquely in the assembly of the church , and therefore the persons that performe it , ( whether they be ordinary church officers or no ) cannot in any congruity of speech be called meere private persons in that action . 2. the church that hath no officers , may elect officers or ministers unto themselves , therefore it may also ordaine them ; which argument dr. whitaker useth as wee shall see anon . if it have commission and power from christ for the one , and that the greater , it hath it also for the other which is the lesser : now ordination is lesse then election , and depends upon it as a necessary antecedent by divine institution , by vertue of which it is justly administred , being indeed nothing else but the admission of a person lawfully elected into his office , or a putting of him into possession thereof , whereunto he had right before by election , as was said before in answer to the precedent question . 3. if a church have ministers or elders before , then this ordination is to be performed by the elders of the church , and in their assemblie . 1 tim. 4. 14. as also many other acts are to be performed by them . 4. this ordination thus performed by the elders for the church , may fitly be called the act of the whole church , as it is the whole man that seeth , that heareth , that speaketh , when these acts are instrumentally performed by the eye , the eare , and the tongue , in which sense master parker saith , ecclesia per alios docet , baptisa●que , polit. eccles . l. 3. c. 7. p. 26. 5. but when a church hath no officers , but the first officers themselves are to be ordained , then this ordination by the rite of imposing of hands may be performed for the church by the most prime grave and able men from among themselves , as the church shall depute hereunto , as the children of israel did lay their hands upon the levites , numb . 8. 10. now all the congregation could not impose all their hands upon them together , all their hands could not possibly reach them together , and therefore it must needs be that some of the congregation in the name of the whole body performed this rite : and as this scripture sheweth , that the people may in some cases lay their hands upon church officers , ( for the levites were such , upon whom the children of israel did lay their hands ) so let it be considered , whether these reasons doe not further make it manifest . 1. men that are in no office may elect , therefore they may ordaine , because ordination is nothing else but the execution of election . 2. if it were not so then one of these would follow , either that the officers must minister without any ordination at all , or else by vertue of some former ordination received in some other church or else they must be ordained by some other minister or ministers of some other church , that were ordained afore them , and so the ministery to be by succession . but the first of these is against the scripture , 1 tim. 4. 14. heb. 6. 2. and the second were to establish the popish opinion of the indeleble character , imprinted as they imagine in their sacrament of holy orders . whereas for ought we can discerne . if when they are called to office in any church , they have need of a new election , notwithstanding their former election into another church then they have by the same ground need of a new ordination , for ordination depends upon election : if their former election be ceased , their former ordination is ceased also ; and they can no more minister by vertue of a former ordination unto another church , then by vertue of a former election . and for the third , we doe not understand what authority ordinary officers can have to ordaine ministers to such a church , of which themselves are not so much as members besides at some times , namely at the first reformation after the times of popery , there were no others to be had but from the pope , and his bishops and priests . now it were a pittifull case , if the sheep must have no shepherd but such as are appointed to them by the wolves , that is , if gods people might not have ministers , but onely from the popish bishops . this were to say , either that the ministers of antichrist , must , or may ordaine ministers to the church of christ , or else that the popish bishops are true ministers of christ . and if protestants thinke it necessary , that their first ministers should be ordained by the popish bishops , it is no marvell if the papists do thereupon believe that their church is the true church , and their bishops true ministers . such a scandall is it unto them to maintaine this personall succession of the ministery . but god doth so much abhorre antichrist , that hee would not have his people to seek to him , nor his priests to ordaine christs ministers , as he would not take of babilon a stone for a corner , nor a stone for a foundation , ier. 51. 26. 3. it is thus in civill corporations and cities , the major , bayliffe , or other chiefe officer elect , is at his entrance and inauguration to receive at the hands of his predecessors the sword or keyes of the city , or to have some other solemne ceremonie by him performed unto him yet if either there be no former as at the first or that the former be dead or upon necessity absent , when his successor entreth , then is this ceremony and worke performed by some other , the fittest instrument ; neither need that city borrow any officer of another city , neither could he entermeddle there without usurpation , though both the corporations have the same charter under the same king. and so it is in this spirituall corporation or city , the church of god. 4. that this point may seeme the lesse strange to you , we pray you consider with us a little further the nature of this ordination , and then wee will adde the testimonies of some eminent protestant writers in this case , that you may see this is not any singular opinion of ours . for the former , some indeed have so highly advanced this ordination , that they have preferred it farre above preaching the word , ministring the sacraments , and prayer , making it and the power of excommunication , the two incommunicable prerogatives of a bishop above an ordinary minister ; yet the scripture teacheth no such thing , but rather the contrary , for when the apostles were sent out by christ , there was no mention of ordination in that commission of theirs , but only of teaching & preaching & baptising mat. 28. 19 , 20. mark. 16. 15 , 16. if ordination of ministers had bin such a speciall worke , there would belike have bin some mention of it in their commission . and certaine it is , the apostles counted preaching the word their principall worke , and after it prayer , and the ministring of the sacraments , act. 6. 4. 1 cor. 1. 17. if ordaining of ministers had bin in their account so prime a worke , it may seem paul would rather have tarried in creete to have ordained elders there then have gone himselfe about preaching , seaving titus for the other , tit. 1 5. by all which it appeares , that ordaining of ministers is not such an eminent work as that it is to be preferred above preaching the word , and ministring the sacraments , and therefore to be performed by them that are superiours unto ordinary ministers ; preaching and ministring the sacraments , being left as inferiour workes unto ministers , of an inferiour ranke , as they would have it , that stand for the superiority of docesan bishops ; neither is it equall unto those other workes afore mentioned , that onely he that doth those , may performe this other also , as some others thinke ; but being nothing else in the true nature and use of it but the execution and accomplishment and confirmation of election , it may bee performed by the people of god , that yet have no officers , even as election may upon which it doth depend . 5. lastly , let these sayings of some protestant writers of singular note , either for holinesse , or learning , or both , be well considered of . master perkins saith , succession of doctrine alone is sufficient ; for this rule must bee remembred , that the power of the keyes ( that is , of order and jurisdiction ) is tyed by god and annexed in the new testament to doctrine . if in turkey , or america , or elsewhere , the gospel should be received by the counsell and perswasion of private persons , they need not send into europe for consecrated ministers , but they have power to choose their owne ministers from within themselves ; because where god gives the word he gives the power also ; upon gal. 1. 11. doctor willet saith , whereas bellarmine objecteth that as in the old law the priesthood went by carnall generation and lineall descent from aaron , so in the new it must bee derived by succession from the apostles ; we answere , first , that our saviour christ and his apostles could shew no lineall descent from aaron , neither had their ordination from his successors , and yet were the true pastors of the church . and a little after , this we say further , that both before christ there were true pastors and prophets , which were not ordained by the priests of aaron ; and since christ , that received not their ordination successively from the apostles . first , in the old law , when the ordinary priesthood was corrupted , god raised up prophets from other tribes that received not from the priests their ordination and allowance : such an one was amos , who was among heardsmen , and was made a prophet as he was gathering wilde black-berries . after the same manner in the corrupt times of the gospel , the lord hath raised up faithfull ministers to his church , that could shew no succession from the degenerate clergy . and a little after , if paul were made an apostle without the ordination of the lawfull apostles much more may the lord raise up new pastors to his church without ordination from the usurpers of the apostles : synops . papism . contr . 2. q. 3. of succession error 20. p. 81. mor●●y his words are full and plaine to the same purpose . viz although some of our men in such a corrupt state of the church , as we have seene in our time , without waiting for calling or allowance of them who under the title of pastors oppressed the lords flock , did at first preach without this formall calling , and afterward were chosen and called to the holy ministey by the churches which they had taught ; yet this ought to seeme no more strange , then if in a free common-wealth the people without waiting either for the consent , or for the voices of those that tyrannize over them , should ( according to the lawes ) make choice of good and wise magistrates , such ( happily ) as god would serve his turne of for their deliverance , and for the publike restitution . and hereof wee have examples , first , in the acts , where wee read that philip , who was but a deacon , preacheth in samaria without the calling of the apostles , yea without their privity , who for all that gave their allowance to his worke . in frumentius , carried upon another occasion into the indies , a meere lay-man , who yet there preacheth the gospel , and a good while after is there made bishop . in those of whom origen speaketh , that shall come by chance into a city where never any christian was borne , shall there begin to teach , and labour to instruct the people in the faith , whom the people shall afterward make their pastors and bishops : and besides , in all the scriptures there is not one place that bindeth the ministery of the gospel to a certaine succession ; but contrariwise the scripture sheweth , that god would send two speciall witnesses to prophesie against antichrist : of the church chap. 11. p. 371. doctor whitaker answering bellarmine , that would prove protestants to have no church , because their ministers had no ordination by bishops , saith , that as sometimes bishops were chosen by the clergy and sometimes by the people , so the same may be said of ordination , viz. that it was sometimes by the clergy and sometimes by the people ; and then addeth , quod si vocationem corum episcoporum legitimam fuisse concedat bellarminus , de ordinatione minus laboramus . qui enim habent authoritatem vocandi , iidem etiam authoritatem ordinandi habent , si legitima ordinatio non possit impetrari : nam ordinatio sequitur vocationem ; qui vocatur , i● quasi in sui muneris possessionem mittitur : de eccles . q. 5. cap. 6 p. 510. finally , doctor ames doth also witnesse the same in many places of his workes : for a taste take these few sayings of his in this case , viz. ad totam ecclesiam semper pertinet ordinatio , quoad jus , vim , virtutem illam quam habet in ministro ecclesiae constituendo ; sicut celebratio matrimonii vim aut virtutem omnem acceptam refert legitimo consensui conjugum : ecclesie statu ( ministerio & ordine deficiente ) collapso vel corrupto , à plebe etiam actus iste ordinationis , quatenus necessarius est ad ministri constitutionem in tali casu , potest legitimè exerceri , bellarm . enervat . lib. 3. de clericis , cap. 2 de ordinatione . and againe , a little after ; episcopos veros à veris episcopis ordinariè dicimus ordinand●s esse , sed nomine ecclesiae cui ordinantur . and againe , a little after , potestas ordinandi est aliqu● modo originaliter in tota ecclesia , sicut potestas videndi originaliter est in toto animali , quamvis formaliter & subjectivè sit in oculo tantùm ; tum etiam ordinationis exercitium pendet à tota ecclesia , sicut actus videndi hoc vel illud determinatè pendet non ab oculo sed à toto . and againe , quamvis in ecclesia benè constituta non debeat aliis quam presbyteris ordinandi manus mandari ; in defectu tamen idoneorum presbyterorum potest non presbyteris mandari . and yet againe in the next place , si concedatur hoc , quòd ex ordine nemo possit esse legitimus pastor , nisi sit à legitimo pastore & episcopo ordinatus : in ordinis tamen defectu , cùm jam primò instaurari debet ordo , non potest●tam accuratè observari , atque adeo extraordinarium aliquid tum potest intervenire sine ullo vitio . these words you see are punctuall and plaine , that the power of ordaining ministers is originally in the church ; and that though when a church hath presbyters , the act of ordaining is to be done by those presbyters ; yet in defect of such it may be performed by them that are no presbyters , lawfully , and without fault ; which is the case of our churches that are in their beginnings , and may be the case of any church when they come to be without officers , as by warre , pestilence , &c. it may come to passe . there are some things common to pastors with teachers ; as , that they are both officers of the church appointed by christ ; both elders or bishops to rule and feed the church , by labouring in the word and doctrine , act. 20 28 1 tim. 3. 1. tit. 1. 5 , 7. and therefore the name of pastour , in a generall sense may be given to them both , ier. 3. 15. as also the name of teacher , isa . 30. 20. as those names may also be given to apostles , in as much as they also are elders , pastors , teachers , to rule , to feed , to teach the church of god , 1 pet. 5. 1. ioh. 21. 15. 16. 1 tim. 2. 7. & 2. 1. 11. and if pastors and teachers be both of them church officers , to feed and rule the church ▪ by labouring in the word and doctrine , they must not do this without application of it to the consciences and states of the hearers , as god shall helpe them : for this application is one part of his worke , that is by his office to preach the word , without which the word is not handled in such a manner as it ought to be , 2 tim. 2. 15. 1 cor. 14. 25. luk. 12. 42. and many hearers need this , the word delivered in generall without application of it being to them as bread set before children in the whole loafe . and if both of them must labour in the word and doctrine , and not onely in a generall way , but with application , we see not but they may both of them administer the seales or sacraments , wherein there is a speciall application of the promises of the gospel , and the grace of christ therein , unto the faithfull and believing receivers . 2. and yet for all this community between them , they are not in propriety of speech the same officers , but distinct , and so the scripture speaketh of them ephes . 4. 11. for if a man would say their offices are confounded , because the same generall worke of preaching the word , and applying the same , belongs unto them both : by the same reason a man might say the offices of apostles and evangelists were confounded ; for both of them were to preach the word , with application of the same by doctrine , and seales ; and also that the ordinary pastors were the same office with them both , because hee also is to doe the same worke of preaching and applying : but an apostle is to feed , and rule , and teach , by way of doctrine and application , as an apostle ; an evangelist as an evangelist , and an ordinary pastor as an ordinary pastor , and therein lyes the difference : and wee may adde , a teacher as a teacher ; and therein is he distinguished both from the pastor , and from all other church officers , even as by the same they all are distinguished one from another , the same generall worke of doctrine and application being common to them all . 3. and for the teacher and pastor , the difference between them lyes in this , that the one is principally to attend upon points of knowledge and doctrine , though not without application ; and the other to points of practice , though not without doctrine : and therefore the one of them is called ▪ he that teacheth , and his worke is thus expressed , let him attend on teaching ; and the other , he that exhorteth , and his worke , to attend on exhortation , rom. 12. 7 , 8. and the gift of the one is called a word of knowledge , and the gift of the other , a word of wisedome , 1 cor. 12. 8. as experience also sheweth , that one mans gift is more doctrinall , and for points of knowledge ; and anothers more exhortatory , and for points of practise . it is not the manner of elders among us , whether ruling onely , or ruling and teaching also , to strive for authority or preheminence one above another ; as remembring what lesson our saviour taught his disciples , when they were at strife among them , which of them should be the greatest , luk. 22. 24 , 25. &c. if diotrephes strive for preheminence 3 ioh. 9 , 10. verily we abhorre such striving , and by the grace of god respect one another as brethren . as for the peoples duty toward their elders , it is taught them plainly in that place , 1 thes . 5. 12 , 13. as also in that of 1 tim. 5. 17 let the elders that rule well bee counted worthy of double honour , specially they that labour in the word and doctrine ; and this word ( specially ) shewes them , that as they are to account all their elders worthy of double honour , so in speciall manner their teaching or preaching elders . these are answered in that which was sent the last yeare . we doe believe that every minister of the gospel ought to be maintained with sufficient and honourable maintenance , according to his need and occasions , in regard of his person , calling , charge of children and hospitality , so as he that preacheth the gospel may in all these respects live of the gospel , 1 cor. 9. 14. gal 6. 6. 1 tim. 5. 17. and this maintenance is not to be allowed as almes and courtesie , but as debt and duty , to bee paid according to the rule of justice ; the labourer is worthy of his wages , luk. 10. 17. which the apostle sheweth to be according to all lawes of nature , nations , moses and christ , 1 cor. 9. but for setled and stinted maintenance , there is nothing done that way amongst us , except from yeare to yeare , because the conditions of ministers may vary , and of the church to which they doe belong : neither doe we know any such thing to be appointed by christ our lord , for the maintenance of the ministery in these dayes ; but this we know that the great mountaine burning with fire , cast into the sea upon the sounding of the second trumpet rev. 8. 8 , 9. is applyed by some good writers to those times , when constantine brought setled endowments into the church , with ampla praedia ( as they are called ) are counted by some to bee no better then poyson to the church ; as the stories say that upon the fact of the good emperour a voice was heard , which said , hodie seminatum est virus in ecclesiam . and if those writers be not deceived which so expound that scripture ( as for our parts wee know not but they expound it truely ) then in as much as upon the casting of that mountaine into the sea , a third part of it became blood and a third part of living creatures dyed , and a third part of ships were destroyed , it may be truely gathered thence that the bringing in of setled endowments and eminent preferments into the church , hath been the corruption , and to some the destruction of such as lived by them , both church-officers and church-members . we doe not permit , and call upon ( such whom you call ) meere lay men , and private persons , neither being in the ministery nor intended to it , ordinarily to preach or prophecy publiquely , in or before the congregation , if by ordinarily , you meane frequently and usually . for where ordinary officers are not wanting to a church , and neither detained from their worke by sicknesse , nor just absence , we thinke it most meet to offer our sacrifice to god and to the church of our best gifts . but yet if you oppose ordinary to extraordinary , we doe confesse that some private members ( to wit such as are eminently fitted with knowledge and utterance , being also men of humble spirits , and holy lives , all which qualifications we finde but in a few ) may without an extraordinary calling from god be called forth by by the church upon some occasion ( and namely in the absence or bodily weaknesse of ministers , or for tryall of gifts when a man intends the ministery ) to speake to edification , exhortation and comfort . iehosaphat sent princes ( who neither were ministers , nor intended so to be ) to teach with the priests and levites , to wit , at least to incourage the people , to hearken to the priests and levites come amongst them , 2 chron. 17. 7 , 8 , 9. as jehosaphat himselfe also did the like , 2 chron. 20. 20. yea , and was their mouth also to god in prayer , v. 2. 5. to 13. as for that prophecying 1 cor. 14. we conceive as some things in it be extraordinary , so some things ordinary . extraordinary , that private men , and new converts should be so soon & so suddainly , & so much enlightened & enlarged , as to be able to prophecy publikely to the edification of a whole church : but yet this we conceive to be ordinary , that some private men may be found ( at least in some churches ) grown christians , of able gifts , who may have received a gift of prophecy , and for such we doe not thinke it requireth any more an extraordinary calling for them to prophecy in our churches , then for iehosaphat and his princes to prophecy in the church of israel . our answer to this question is that we never knew any ministers that did call upon the people thus to doe : and as for us , such calling upon them is farre from us . all that we know to be holden in this case is this , that some thinke the people have a liberty to aske a question publiquely for their better satisfaction upon very urgent and weighty cause , though even this is doubted of by others , and all judge the ordinary practice of it , not necessary : but ( if it be not meekly and wisely carried ) to be inconvenient if not utterly unlawfull , and therefore such asking of questions is seldome used in any church among us , and in most churches never . true it is , in the times a little afore the synod divers that were infected with corrupt opinions were very bold , & forward in this kind of asking questions , after sermons , especially when they had heard somthing delivered publiquely that did make against their tenents ; by which kind of asking questions , they plainely discovered of what spirit they were , but for being called upon by us thus to doe , ( as it seems to your question that you have been informed ) the truth is , there was no such matter . but now these men are long since , ( the greatest part of them ) to an island ( called aquedneck ) departed from amongst us , some of them being excommunicated or banished , or both , & others departing voluntarily , or for feare of the like censure , by meanes of which departure of these troublesome spirits from amongst us , and the blessing of god upon the synod & sermons that have laid open & reproved this disorderly asking of questions , a man may now live from one end of the year unto another in these congregations , & not hear any man open his mouth in such kind of asking questions . 1. the conversion of sinners unto god doth not alwaies follow the preaching of every one , that is in a lawfull office of ministery , as experience and scripture doe aboundantly witnesse , isay . 49. 4 , 5. & 53. 1. ezech. 3. 7. 2 king. 17. 13 14. mat. 11. 20 , 21. &c. iohn 12. 37. 2. and when it doth follow , it is not by vertue of him , or of his office , but by vertue of gods blessing , and the mighty operation of his spirit as he pleaseth , without which the minister and his office could have had no vertue at all to convert sinners unto god , 1 cor. 3. 6. no more then peter and iohn could heale the lame man , by virtue of any power or holinesse that was in them , act. 3. 12. for otherwise faithfull ministers should not have their labours blessed for conversion some more and some lesse ▪ but all in the same measure , inasmuch as one of them is no more a minister then another , nor no more in office then another , their office being the same , the effect in conversion would bee the same if conversion were by the vertue of their office . the truth it is , the law of the lord , ( the whole word of god ) that converts the soule , psal . 19. 7. and the gospell that is the power of god unto salvation . rom. 1. 16. and therefore the conversion of a man to god is to be ascribed to god , and to the word of his grace ; and not to the minister , nor any vertue of his office . 3. but this we doe acknowledge , that the sound conversion of sinners , whensoever such a thing comes to passe , doth argue that the instruments of such conversion are sent of god : god would not so have blessed them , as to convert any by them , if himselfe had not sent them at all , rom. 10. 14 , 15. ier. 23. 32. 4. and yet we dare not say , that gods word is not made effectuall to conversion , unlesse the man that speakes it be a minister , that is to say , a church officer , for the contrary is evident from the scripture , john 4. 39. act. 8. 4. with 11. 19 , 20 , 21. 1 cor. 7. 16. they that were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about steven , were not church officers , at least all of them ( for the apostles who were their chiefe , if not their only preaching officers , were not scattered abroad upon that persecution , but remained still at jerusalem , acts 8. 1. ) and yet these men did so preach the word of the lord jesus to the iewes and the grecians , that through the good hand of the lord that was with them , a great number believed and turned to the lord ; and the same we say of the woman of samaria , by whose testimonie of christ many of the samaritans believed on him . to restraine the efficacy of gods word in such sort as to say that none can be converted by it , unlesse he that speakes it be a minister , is to limit the spirit of the lord , where he hath not limited himself , who is free in working by whom he pleaseth , and as he will , 1 cor. 12. 11. even as the wind bloweth where it listeth , iohn 3. 8. and sometimes doth bring to passe great things by weake meanes , that his owne glory may be the more , 1 cor. 1. 27 , 28 , 29. if any say , how can these things stand together , that a man that is no minister may be an instrument of conversion , and yet conversion of sinners argues that the man is sent of god ? wee answer , that we must distinguish of sending according to the divers degrees thereof . for sometimes it imports no more but such an act of gods disposing providence , whereby men are gifted and enabled for such or such a worke , and permitted thereunto , though they have no command from him for the doing thereof , nor doe it not with a sincere minde in any obedience to god , but for corrupt and sinister ends of their owne . thus god sent the king of assyria against the iewes , isa . 10. 6. and bands of the caldees , and bands of other nations against jehojakim , and against iudah , to destroy it , 2 king. 24. 2. and yet they had no command from him to doe this , but sinned grievously in so doing . thus they that preached christ not sincerely , but of envie and strife , to adde affliction to pauls bands , yet inasmuch as they preached christ , might be said to be sent of god , and therefore the apostle joyed at their preaching , phil. 1. 15 , 16. thus baalam in his prophecies against the enemies of israel and for the happy state of gods people , might be said to be sent of god , though his heart and ends were corrupt and sinfull . but if men be not onely enabled with gifts for such or such a worke , but besides this , have a sincere minde and desire in the using thereof , to seeke the glory of god , and the good of soules , such men may much more be said to be sent of god , iohn 7. 18. for these men have not onely abilities and gifts from god , and permission to imploy them as the former had but also his spirit within them , which doth set their hearts on right and holy ends , which the other wanted . and yet if men doe want a lawfull office of ministery , wherein to exercise those gifts or a lawfull calling to that office or exercise , they may in that respect be said not to be sent of god , or not to be called of him though sent of him , in the first or second respect . thus in the scriptures it is said of some they ran and i sent them not , ier. 23. 21. i perceived that god had not sent him , but he pronounced his prophecies , because sanballat and tobiah had hired him , neh. 6. 12. and yet doubtlesse in respect of gods disposing providence , he had sent them , as the scripture witnesseth , that god sends strong delusions and lying prophets , and unfaithfull shepherds , 2 thes . 2. 11. 1 king. 22. 22 , 23. zech. 11. 16. to be a plague unto the sons of men , and for tryall to his servants , deut. 13. 3. 1 cor. 11. 19. now let these distinctions be applyed to the case in hand , and we may perceive how , if a man convert sinners , certainly god sends him ; and yet some that are not called to any office in the ministery , may through his blessing convert sinners : a man converts none unlesse god send him in the first or second sence and yet he may convert , and not bee sent , if sending be taken in the third sence , that is for a lawfull calling into some office in the church . and wee may adde , further a man may be sent in this third sence and yet convert none if he be not also sent in the first and second respect ; that is a man may have a lawfull calling outwardly unto a lawfull office in the church , and yet not convert sinners , if he want gifts or sincerity of heart , which might be the case of iudas , and of many wicked priests in the old testament : yea , happily convert none though he be truly sent in all three respects , as was said before in the beginning of the answer to this quaere . but if comparison be made , we doubt not , but whilest the ministery remaines uncorrupt , god is wont to follow with a greater blessing the labours of those who have gifts and an office of ministery also , then of those who have gifts alone without office . he is willing , and wonted to honour himselfe most , where most of his wayes are observed . master parker polit. eccles . l. 2. c. 39. &c. 41. observes a difference between the substantialls in church politie , and the accessaries or accidentalls ▪ and circumstantialls : and againe , that of circumstances some are generall , and some particular and individuall ; and so sheweth that the church politie in regard of the substantialls thereof is prescribed in the word , and therefore immutable . according to which distinction wee answer , that if those words ( precisely the same course ) mentioned in this question , be not meant of particular and individuall circumstances , but only of the substantialls or generall circumstances , then for ought we know there is no materiall point , either in constitution , or government , wherein the churches in n. e. ( viz. in the bay , in the jurisdiction of plymouth , at connectacute , and quilipiake ) do not observe the same course . ( and sure it is if they doe not they ought , because christ hath left but one way for all churches , and the same to be observed to the worlds end , 1 tim. 6. 13 , 14. ) onely , that conformity to the lyturgie and ceremonies in some places , to the northward , that anabaptisme at providence , and familisme at aquidneck ▪ hinders that we cannot say the same of them , nor of any other in n. e. that concurre with them in their unwarrantable wayes ▪ if there be any such , though thankes be to god there is none within this jurisdiction . who must have liberty to sit downe in this common-wealth and enjoy the liberties thereof is not our place to determine , but the magistrates who are the rulers and governours of the common-wealth , and of all persons within the same . and as for acknowledging a company to be a sister church , that shall set up , and practise another forme of church discipline , being otherwise in some measure , as you say , approveable , we conceive the companie that shall so doe , shall not be approveable therein . for the discipline appointed by jesus christ for his churches is not arbitrary , that one church may set up and practice one forme , and another another forme , as each one shall please , but is one and the same for all churches , and in all the essentialls and substantialls of it unchangable , and to be kept , till the appearing of jesus christ , 1 tim. 6. 13 , 14. from which place master cartwright observes the perpetuity of church government taught by the apostles , unto the end of the world , and is plain and large in this point , 1 rep. p. 177. as is likewise mr. parker polit. eccles . l. 2. c. 42. and so forward to the end of that book , unto whom we refer you herein . and if that discipline which we here practise , be ( as we are perswaded of it ) the same which christ hath appointed , and therefore unalterable , we see not how another can be lawfull ; and therefore if a company of people shall come hither , and here set up and practise another , we pray you thinke not much , if we cannot promise to approve of them in so doing , especially untill wee see how approvable the men may be , and what discipline it is that they would set up . for should wee in such generall words as is there expressed , promise to accept of a companie as a sister church ▪ that shall set up and practise another discipline , and then should be taken at the utmost extent of our words , we might by this meanes be bound to accept of a company of papists , or arminians , or familists , or anabaptists , as a sister church , for there is none of these but something may be found in them , and in their discipline , that is in some measure approveable . and yet we pray you heartily in the lord , so conceive of us in this passage , that we are farre from making any such comparison , as if your selves were not approved in our consciences far above the best of such men , yea and above our selves in many respects . we have said before in that which we sent you the last yeare , and upon this occasion we say it now againe , that you are in our hearts ( if the lord would suffer ) to live and dye together : and therefore if this question were meant of your selves , or any of you , and a company of godly people joyning with you ( as it may be it is , though we cannot certainly say it , because you doe not expresse so much ) we thinke if you were here , wee should gladly accept of you and your people as a sister-church , and that you would doe the like to ours ; and yet not when you should set up and practise one forme of church-discipline , and we another , but because we are perswaded if you were here , you would set up and practise the very same that wee doe , and not any other : or else if we be swerving from the rule in any particular ( as god knowes we are but weake men , and far from dreaming of perfection in this life ) god would by you send in more light unto us then yet we see , and make you instruments in his hand for perfecting what is here begun according to his will , for strengthening what is weake , and reforming what may be found to be amisse : for we trust in the lord , that as wee are desirous that you might joyne with us in the wayes wherein we now walke , ( which we doe not see but they are according to the rule ) so we should be as willing to receive light from you , and to redresse ( as god shall helpe us ) whatsoever by you or any other he may discover to us to stand in need of reformation . for which cause among others we doe the more earnestly desire , if it were the lords will that he might send you hither , nothing doubting but if you were here , there would be such agreement between you and us , that either you would approve of the things which we beleeve and practise , or that we should approve of what you may shevv us to be more agreeable to the minde of christ : and then there would be no occasion of such a question , whether we may set up and practise another discipline , and yet be accepted as a sister-church : but rather of blessing the lord , when that shall be accomplished in you and us which is written in the prophets , i will give them one heart and one way : i will turne unto the people a pure language , that they may all call upon the name of the lord , to serve him with one consent , jer. 32. 39. zeph. 3. 9. wee have confidence in you through the lord , that you will be none otherwise minded ; but if in any thing ye be otherwise minded god shall reveale even this unto you , gal. 5. 10. phil. 3. 15. this was answered in the answer to posit . 1. & 2. sent unto you the last yeare . finis . an apologie of the chvrches in new-england for chvrch-covenant . or , a discourse touching the covenant between god and men , and especially concerning church-covenant , that is to say , the covenant which a company doe enter into when they become a church ; and which a particular person enters into when he becomes a member of a church . sent over in answer to master bernard , in the yeare 1639. and now published for the satisfaction of all who desire resolution in this point . london , printed by t. p. and m. s. for benjamin allen. 1643. a discovrse tovching the covenant between god and men , and especially concerning church-covenant , that is to say , the covenant which a company do enter into when they become a church , and which a particular person enters into when he becomes a member of a church . 1639. jer . 50. 5. come let us joyne our selves to the lord , in a perpetuall covenant that shall not be forgotten . although that which is foretold in these two chapters ; and namely in the fourth and fifth verses of this chapter , was in part fulfilled when the people of god returned from captivitie in babylon at the end of seventie yeares : yet we must not limit the place to that time onely , but may extend it further to the dayes of the gospel , and the spirituall return , not of the jews onely , but of the gentiles also , when men shall be converted from pagan , antichristian , babylonish , or jewish bondage and captivitie , or from slavery to sinne , and self-righteousnesse , and shall be joyned to god in the fellowship of his church , in the dayes of the new testament . for as some passages in this scripture were never fully accomplished at the returne from the captivitie of the seventie yeares , and namely this , that the children of israel and judah should returne both together : ( for the ten tribes returned not at all : ) so many things that literally concerned the jewes were types and figures , signifying the like things concerning the people of god in these latter dayes : in which respect sincere converts are called jewes , rom 2. 29. and israelites , gal. 6. 16. joh. 1. 47. and our sacraments are made antitypes of theirs , 1 cor. 10. 1 , 2 , 3. and rome is called babylon , rev. 17. 5. and papists are called gentiles , rev. 11. 2. and therefore the captivitie of babylon might well be a type of the spirituall captivitie of gods people to antichristian bondage , and their returne from babylon to sion , a type of the returne of christians from romish slavery to the true sion , the christian church . and this may be added further , that this place seemes not onely to be meant of the private or personall conversion of this or that particular christian , but also further , of the open and joynt calling of a company , because it is said , they shall come , the children of israel and the children of judah together , and that their saying shall not be , let me joyne , &c. but in the plurall number , let us joyne our selves unto the lord , so noting the joyning of a company together in holy covenant with god. concerning which covenant with god , it will not be amisse for the better understanding of that which followes ; first , briefly to shew how diversly covenant is taken in the scripture , which sometimes imports generally any firme appointment or promise of god , when man doth not promise unto god any thing backe againe : thus the preserving of noah in the arke , and of the world from being drowned any more by a floud ; the interchangeable succession of day and night ; the giving of the priesthood unto phineas ; the setting forth of the shew-bread every sabbath before the lord , and the giving of the heave-offering unto the priests , are said to be done by a covenant , or an everlasting covenant of god , gen. 6. 18. & 9. 9 , 10 , 11. jer. 33. 20. num. 25. 12 , 13. levit. 24. 8. num. 18. 19. but sometimes covenant is taken more strictly and properly , for an agreement which god doth make with men , when he promiseth some blessing unto men , and bindes them to performe some dutie backe againe to him . taken thus it hath two parts : first , a promise or stipulation of some blessing on gods part : secondly , restipulation or promise , or binding of man unto dutie back againe on his part : both these are in those words of the covenant , i will be to thee a god , thou shalt be to me a people : and so gen. 17. 1. & v. 7 , 8 , 9 , 10. the covenant taken thus is either the covenant of workes , or the covenant of grace : and againe the covenant may be considered ; first as it is personall , private and particular , between god and one particular soule , making covenant with god , and god with him , either at his first conversion ; or at other times ; of which we reade 2 sam. 23. 5. & psal . 119 , 106. & 66. 13 , 14. & 27 8. & psal . 119. 7 , 8 secondly , it is generall and publick of a company joyntly together , of which this text jer. 50. 5. seemes most properly to speake : as also that deut. 29. 9 , 10 , &c. and that exod. 19. 5 , 6 , and many others : a covenant taken thus generally when it respects spirituall blessings , and spirituall duties , in the communion of saints , is that which is called church-covenant , which church-covenant differs not in substance of the things promised from that which is between the lord and every particular soule , but onely in some other respects ; as first , the one is of one christian in particular , the other of a company joyntly together . secondly , if right order be observed , a man ought not to enter into church-covenant , till he be in covenant with god before , in respect of his personall estate . thirdly , the one is usually done in private , as in a mans closet between the lord and his soule , and the other in some publick assembly . fourthly , the one in these dayes is of such duties as the gospel requires of every christian as a christian , the other of such duties as the gospel requires of every church and the members thereof . now concerning church-covenant , two things are to be noted for the better understanding thereof : first , the description of it : secondly , the use of it , and the benefit and fruit thereof . for the former it may be thus described , viz. a solemne and publick promise before the lord , whereby a company of christians , called by the power and mercy of god to fellowship with christ , and by his providence to live together , and by his grace to cleave together in the unitie of faith , and brotherly love , and desirous to partake together in all the holy ordinances of god , doe in confidence of his gracious acceptance in christ , binde themselves to the lord , and one to another , to walke together by the assistance of his spirit , in all such wayes of holy worship in him , and of edification one towards another , as the gospel of christ requireth of every christian church , and the members thereof . in this description , there are comprised six things : first , the generall name of the thing : [ a solemne and publick promise ] a promise it is , and therefore it is called , a joyning in covenant here : an entring into covenant , deut. 29. 10. solemne and publick , and therefore it is by the children of israel and the children of judah together : and they say , let us joyne . secondly , the object [ the lord , and one another ] joyne our selves to the lord it is not a promise onely to man , but to the lord himselfe , and likewise to one another ; for , come let us joyne , implyes mutuall consent together . thirdly , the agents or the qualification of the persons : [ christians ] not turkes , indians , &c. saints , psal . 50. 5. 16 , 17. [ called to fellowship with christ ] so 1 cor. 1. 9 else if they be not united to christ by faith , they are not fit materialls for such a building as a church of god , which is the house of the living god , ephes . 1. 1. 1 cor. 1. 2. phil. 1. 1. rev. 21. 27. [ by his providence to live together ] else they cannot partake in the lords ordinances together as churches ought to doe , 1 cor. 14. 23. act. 14 27. the whole church comes together in one place [ cleaving together in faith and love ] so act. 4 32. if they differ , namely , in opinion , or in their affection , and should joyne in this covenant , breaches , factions , rents , and schismes , would be like to be the issue of such joyning : things so unlike would not close nor long hold together , dan. 2. 43 [ desirous to partake in all ordinances ] this should be the ground of their joyning in covenant together , psal . 110. 3. willing : and not pride , nor gaine , nor the like : fourthly , the act [ binde themselves ] that now they are bound by their owne word and promise , that they may say now , as psal . 56. 12. thy vowes are upon me , or as num. 30. 2. if he binde his soule with a vow . fiftly , the matter promised ; [ to walke together in all such wayes of worship and mutuall edification , as the gospel requireth of churches and church-members ] they binde not themselves to observe any devises of their owne , nor inventions of men , but such things as the word of god requireth ; neither is it perfect obedience to the law , for that were impossible to performe , and presumption to promise ; nor is it onely in generall the duties of the gospel , but specially such duties of worship to god , & edification of one another as concerne church-state , which now they enter into . sixtly , the manner of performing [ confidence of gods gracious acceptance and assistance through christ ] for in all our wayes god must be acknowledged , pro. 3. 6. and much more in such speciall matters of weight : if men in entring into this covenant looke for acceptance , through any worth of their owne , or promise dutie in their own strength , they shew themselves like to the pharisees , luk. 18. 10 , 11. and turne the church-covenant into a covenant of workes : and as many as are of the workes of the law , are under the curse , gal. 3. 10. the use and benefit of this church-covenant , and the fruit thereof , may be seene in two particulars ; first , that this is that whereby a company of christians doe become a church : it is the constituting forme of a church . secondly , this is that by taking hold whereof a particular person becomes a member of a church , which was constituted afore . for the former of these ; every christian church must have in it both matter and forme , and as the matter by gods appointment are visible saints , or visible beleevers , ephes . 1. 1. 1 cor. 1. 2. and in the new testament , onely so many as may meete together in one congregation : so the forme is a uniting , or combining , or knitting of those saints together into one visible body , by the band of this holy covenant . some union or band there must be amongst them , whereby they come to stand in a new relation to god , and one towards another , other then they were in before : or els they are not yet a church , though they be fit materialls for a church ; even as soule and body are not a man , unlesse they be united ; nor stones and timber an house , till they be compacted and conjoyned . now that a company becomes a church , by joyning in covenant , may be made good sundry wayes ; first , by plaine texts of scripture ; as from deut. 29. 1 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13. yee stand this day all you before the lord your god , your captaines of your tribes , your elders , your officers , with all the men of israel , ver . 10. that thou shouldest enter into covenant with the lord thy god , ver . 12. and he may establish thee for a people unto himselfe , ver . 13. so that here is plain●y shewed , that here was a company , ver . 10. and this company were to be established to be a people unto the lord , that is to say , a church , ver . 13. and this is done by the peoples entring into solemne covenant with god , ver . 12. and therefore a company of people doe become a church by entring into covenant with god. this covenant was not like our church-covenants , for it was of all the nation together ; whereas the church-covenant with us , is of some select persons , leaving out others . 1. this objection concerns the matter of a church , but the covenant is not the materiall cause of a church , but the formall cause thereof : and for this the text is ▪ plaine and expresse , that by entring into covenant with god , a people come to be the lords people , that is to say , his church . 2. if it was of all the people together , the reason was because that church was a nationall church : now if a nationall church becomes a church by entring into solemne covenant with god , then a congregationall church becomes a church by the same means ; for there is no difference between them in this point . 3. though it was of all the people , we may not say it proves that when we looke at the materiall cause of a church , there may be a promiscuous taking in of all commers without distinction or separation of the precious from the vile ; for , first , when god took in this nation to be his people , he separated them from all the nations of the earth besides : so that there was a distinction and separation of some from others . secondly , this generation was generally a generation of beleevers ; for it was they that were to enter into the land within a while after ; for they were fortie yeares in the wildernesse ▪ & this covenant was made in the last moneth save one of the last of those fortie yeares , deut. 1. 3. and their carkasses fell not in the wildernesse through unbeliefe , as their fathers did , num 14. heb. 3. but entred by faith , and when they were entred , subdued kingdomes by their faith , heb. 11. 33. and served the lord all the dayes of joshua , and of the elders that out lived joshua , josh . 24 31. as for that which is said of them , ver . 4 , 5. of this chap. that the lord had not given them eyes to see , &c. that proves not that they were wholly hardned in a carnall estate , but onely that they were dull and slow of heart to consider of sundry dispensations of god towards them ; for as much is said of the disciples of christ , mar. 8. 17 , 18. when doubtlesse they were not meere carnall or naturall persons . this people deut. 29. could not become the lords people by entring into solemne covenant with god , for they were the lords church and people already before this . 1. if they were , yet that was by entring into solemne covenant with god on mount sinai , when the lord had brought them up out of the land of aegypt ; for then they entred into solemne covenant with god , and god with them , and so they bec●me the lords peculiar people , exod. 19 ▪ 4 , 5 , 6 , 8. &c. if they were his people before that , yet that also was by covenant made with them in the loynes of abraham , when god tooke him and his seede to be his church and people , yet separating ishmael from isaac and es●● from jacob , that the inheritance of the covenant of god , and of being the church of god , might rest in the house of jacob. 2. yet it was not without great reason that the lord should now establish them by solemne covenant to be a people to himselfe , because the nation had been much degenerated from the spirit and wayes of abraham in aegypt , and had broken that covenant by their idolatries there , ezek. 20. 7 , 8. and the covenant made in sinai or hore● when they were come out of aegypt , they had also broken by their idolatries in the wildernesse , ezek 20. 13 , 16. for which causes , and the like , the lord consumed that generation , that they never entred into the land , josh . 5. 4 , 6. and therefore now when their posteritie and children were ready to enter in , the lord entred into covenant with them , and thereby established them to be his people , their fathers being cut off for breaking the covenant . but still it was by covenant that both fathers first , and children afterward became a church and people unto god ; and when this generation were entred into the land , their covenant made before between god and them , was confirmed by circumcision , josh . 5. 3. 7. they being not circumcised before . but this covenant was of the whole church with god , and therefore not like our church-covenants , which are between the church and the members , concerning watchfulnesse over one another , and the like . our church-covenants are with the lord himselfe , as was shewed before in the description thereof . for watchfulnesse and duties of edification one towards another , are but branches of the lords covenant , being duties commanded by the law : and so it was with that people of israel , who when they promised and covenanted to walke in all the wayes of god ; in all his statutes and commandements and judgements , they promised these duties of love and watchfulnesse and edification one towards another , because these were duties commanded and required of god , lev. 19 : 17. deut. 29 8. the neglect whereof in the matter of achan was the sinne of all the congregation ▪ and brought judgement upon them all , josh . 7. 11 , 12. yea by this covenant they were bound to duties towards them that were not then present , but children afterward to be borne , and proselytes , that afterward should be added to them , ver . 14 , 15. like as our church-covenants are with them that now are , and that hereafter shall become members of the same church . when jehojada made a covenant between the king and the people , 2 king. 11. 17. that covenant was but a branch of the lords covenant with them all , both king and people : for the king promised but to rule the people righteously , according to the will of god : and the people to be subject to the king so ruling . now these duties of the king to them , and of them to the king , were such as god required in his covenant , both of him and them : and so it is in church-covenant , the duties of the church to the members , and the members to the church , and one another , are no other but such as the gospel and the covenant of grace requireth both of the church and the members of it in their severall places . but this place of deut. 29. is not sufficient to prove a church-covenant in these dayes : because it is in the scriptures of the old testament , for what soever must be used in the dayes of the new testament , must be proved from the scriptures of the new testament , or else it is to be layd aside . 1. the church-covenant may be proved from the new testament also ▪ as will afterwards appeare . 2. but suppose there were not pregnant places for it in the new testament , yet it is not enough to prove the same unlawfull : for whatsoever ordinance of the old testament is not repealed in the new testament , as peculiar to the jewish paedagogie , but was of morall and perpetuall equitie , the same bindes us in these dayes ▪ and is to be accounted the revealed will of god in all ages , though it be not particularly and expressely mentioned in the writings of the new testament , else how shall we prove it unlawfull for a man to marry his sister , or his aunt ? how shall we prove it warrantable and necessary for magistrates to punish sabbath-breaking , blasphemy , and idolatry ? how shall we prove it lawfull to apply the seale of gods covenant unto infants ? or to admit women to eate of the holy things ; for the scriptures of the new testament doe speake little in these cases ; onely the scriptures of the old testament doe give direction , and light about them , lev ▪ 18. & 19. neh. 13. 15. &c. 2 chron. 15. 16. & 2 king. 23. gen. 17. 2. & exod. 12. 4. 6. and the new testament hath nothing to the contrary , and they are all according to morall equitie and reason , and therefore they are to be observed from the scriptures of the old testament , as the revealed will of god , though there were nothing expressely for them in the new. and the same we say of the particular in hand . for , that a company should be combined together into one body , in way of government and subjection , by way of mutuall free covenant ; as men doe when they enter into church estate , nothing is more naturall or agreeable to morall equitie ; nay , it implyeth a contradiction in the very name of libertie or freedome , that free-men should take upon them authoritie or power over free men without their free consent , and voluntary and mutuall covenant or engagement . and therefore seeing this covenant is not repealed in the scriptures of the new testament , the scriptures of the old are sufficient warrant for it . another scripture to prove the same , is deut. 26. 16 , 17 , 18. with deut. 27. 9. this day the lord hath commanded thee to doe these statutes and judgements ▪ thou shalt therefore keepe and doe them , &c. thou hast avouched the lord this day to be thy god , and to walke in his wayes , and to keepe his statutes , &c. and the lord hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people ; take heed and hearken , o israel , this day thou art become the people of the lord thy god. this scripture plainly shewes these things : 1. that here was the making of a covenant between god and man ; for that avouching of god to them , and them to god , was the making of covenant , ver . 17 , 18. 2. this was not of one person , but of a company together , the whole people of israel , 26. 18. & 27. 9. 3 here is the effect of this covenant , that thereby they become the lords people , ver . 9. so that when a company doe enter into holy covenant with god , they become thereby the lords people , that is to say , his church . so ezech. 16. 8. proves the same likewise : i entred into covenant with thee , saith the lord , and thou becam●st mine . here also is the making of covenant between the lord and men ; and this covenant was not personall , but of a company ; for it was with hierusalem , ver . 2. which was a whole citie ; it was with them that were multiplied as the bud of the feild , ver . 7. and it was with them that did prosper into a kingdome , ver . 13. and therefore not meant onely of any one particular person : and by this covenant they became the lords ; that is , the lords church and people ; for it is expresly said , i entred into covenant with thee , and thou becamest mine . so that when a company enter into covenant with god , and god with them , they become thereby the lords church and people . likewise ezek. 20. 37. i will cause you to passe under the rod ; and i will bring you into the bond of the covenant . in which place , there is first mention of an holy covenant . secondly , this was not of one person , but of a company , the whole house of israel , ver . 30. 39. thirdly , and this covenant is called a bond , because it is by covenant that a people are bound , and tyed , and knit together , as one church , all of them unto the lord , and one unto another ; so that the covenant is the bond of union , by which a company are so combined and united , as that they become a church . it is also observable , how the lord before he would bring them into this bond of the covenant , he would cause them to passe under the rod ; by which phrase , as junius upon the place well observes , is meant tryall and probation ; drawne from the manner of shepheards or owners of cattell , who went among their sheepe , or other cattell with a rod , and therewith pointed out such as were for the lords holy use , as lev. 27. 32. and so hereby is noted that god would not in the dayes of the gospel have men to be brought into his church hand over head , but he would first cause them to passe under the rod of due tryall and probation ; and then such as upon tryall were found to be holy for god , or meete matter for his church , should solemnly enter into covenant with god , and that covenant should be the bond that should combine them , and knit them together into one , that so they that were many particular persons , should all become one body , that is to say , a church . and so much of the first argument drawne from plaine texts of scripture . a second argument may be taken from the titles that are given to the church ; as first , that the church is said to be married or espoused unto christ , jer. 2. 2. & 3. 14. 2 cor. 11. 2. from whence the argument may be formed thus : if every church becomes a church by being married or espoused unto christ , then a company becomes a church by way of covenant : but the former is true , therefore the latter is true also . the assumption , that a church becomes a church by being married unto christ , is plaine from the former scriptures , where the church of israel , and the church of corinth , in regard of their entring into church-estate , are said to be espoused and married unto christ , as a loving and chast virgine to one husband . which spirituall marriage between christ and his church , is also taught in the type of the marriage between king salomon and pharoahs daughter , psal . 45. the consequence of the proposition is plaine in reason ; for there is no marriage but by way of covenant ; no woman becomes a mans wife , but by way of bestowing her selfe in covenant upon such a man : neither doth a man become an husband , but by the same means ; and therefore the scripture speaking of the violation of marriage , calls it a violation of covenant , prov. 2. 17. christ hath but one wife or spouse , cant. 6 9. the catholique church indeed is but one ; viz ▪ the whole company of gods elect in heaven , in earth , dead , now living , and not yet borne : but as there is the church-catholique , which is but one ; so there are particular and visible churches , which are in number many ; and therefore the scripture speakes of churches , 2 cor. 8. 1. 19. gal. 1. 2. of the churches of the gentiles , rom. 16. 4. of seven churches , rev. 1. 4. of all churches , 1 cor. 14. 33. & 7. 17. rev. 2. 23. but if every particular church be the wife of christ , how many hundred wives should he have ? 1. if the church of israel , jer. 2. 2. the church of corinth , 2 cor. 11. 2. the jewish church , rev. 19. 7. be the spouse and wife of christ , there is no reason but others should be the same also , especially seeing there is no particular church , but in respect of their church estate , they may decline and goe a whoring from christ , and that shews that they were first espoused to him ; for no woman can be said to goe a whoring from a man , if shee were never married , nor espoused to him at all . 2. this that seemes an absurditie , and were a sinfull practise among men , in respect of christ , is a certaine truth , and no dishonour unto him at all , to have more spouses then one upon earth , many spirituall spouses . men cannot give themselves wholly and intirely to many as christ can . every faithfull soule is espoused and married unto christ ; and in that respect he hath not onely many hundred but many thousand , yea many millions of spirituall spouses . but this spirituall marriage is between christ and the church , but the church-covenant is between the church and the members , and therefore this marriage doth not prove the church-covenant . 1. in some sort there may be said to be a marriage between the church and the members , viz. in respect of that deare love and affection , that ought to be between them ; and therefore it is said , as a young man marrieth a virgine , so shall the children of the church be married to the church , isa . 62. 5. 2. but properly the marriage is between christ & the church , and so is the covenant also , so farre as therein they give up themselves to christ as unto an head and lord ; as a woman in the covenant of marriage doth give up her selfe unto her husband ; and the performance of such duties as the church and the member owe one unto another , is a branch of that marriage-covenant , wherein they are tyed to christ ; for christ himselfe in his covenant requires , not onely that they should give up themselves to him , but also that they should performe these duties one unto another . and accordingly it is said of the churches in macedonia , that they gave up themselves first to the lord , and then to us by the will of god , 2 cor. 8. 5. true it is , they doe also binde themselves by covenant one unto another , but in that respect the covenant is properly a brotherly covenant ; like that 1 sam. 20 8. amos 1. 9. because there the engagement is to one another as brethren , fellow-members , and fellow-helpers , and not as to one head or lord , as it is in respect of christ , and therefore in that respect it is not so properly a marriage-covenant as it is in respect of christ : though duties to one another are promised in their covenant with one another , and also in their covenant with christ . in briefe thus : they promise unto christ duties to him , and duties to one another according to him : and so their covenant is a marriage-covenant with christ : they promise also to one another , duties to one another , and so it is a brotherly covenant . another title given to the church ( which also proves that a church is made by covenant ) is the title of a citie , or citie of god , psal . 87. 3. & 48 1. 8. & 122. 3. ephes 2. 19. the argument lyeth thus ▪ if a true church be a citie of god , then a church becomes a church by covenant : but every true church is a citie of god. ergo. the assumption is proved by the scriptures forealledged . the consequence of the proposition is plaine in reason , for every citie is united by some covenant among themselves , the citizens are received into jus civitatis , or right of citie priviledges , by some covenant or oath ; and therefore it is so likewise in this citie of god the church ; and men become citizens of the church by solemne covenant . the third argument may be drawne from the meanes of reforming and restoring a church when it is corrupted , which is by entring into covenant a new with god , 2 chron. 15 10. & 29. 10. & neh. 9. 38. & 10. 28 , 29. jer. 50. 4 , 5. the reason may be taken thus : if a church decayed is to be restored and reformed by renuing covenant with god , then it was instituted and erected at the first by way of covenant : the reason of which consequence is , because abuses and corruptions are to be reformed by bringing things back to the first institution : thus christ reformes the abuses of marriage , by bringing them to the first institution of that ordinance ; from the beginning it was not so , mat. 19 8. and thus paul reformeth the abuses of the lords supper , by telling them what was the first institution thereof , 1 cor. 11. 23 , &c. and thus the lord jesus calling on the declining church of ephesus for reformation , bids her remember from whence shee is fallen , and repent and doe her first workes , rev. 2. 5. now the assumption is plaine from the texts above alledged , that at the reforming of a church , there is to be a renuing of covenant ; and thence it follows , that at the first erecting of a church , there was the making of a covenant with god , for els this renuing of covenant would not have been the way to reforme it . the fourth argument is taken from that which doth dissolve a church , which is the dissolving or breaking of the covenant , zach. 11. 9 , 10 , 14. if dissolving the covenant be that which doth dissolve the church , then the making of covenant is that which constitutes a church . the reason of the consequence is plaine , because otherwise the covenant might be dissolved & the church stand still , if it were not the making of the covenant that did constitute the church : but if dissipating stones in a building doe dissolve the house , then the compacting and conjoyning of them is that which makes the house ; if separation of soule and body be that which destroyes the man , that then we say he is not : it must needs be the uniting of them , that did constitute & make the man : and so it is in this case . and that dissolving the covenant is that which dissolves a church , is plaine from the text alledged , zach. 11. where the breaking of the two staves , of beautie and bands , that is , the unchurching of the jewes , is interpreted to be the breaking of the covenant that god had made with that people , and the brotherhood that was between judah and israel . the fifth argument is taken from the distinction which god hath appointed amongst churches , and the confounding of all churches into one , if there be not this covenant to distinguish them . if churches be distinct societies , and may not be confounded , then churches are compacted and combined by covenant : but the former is true . ergo. that churches are distinct societies , is plaine in the scripture , where we have mention of many churches in one countrey or province , gal. 1. 1. 1 thes . 2. 14. of seven churches in asia , rev. 1. 4. and of all the churches , 1 cor. 14. 33. rev. 2. 23. ephesus is not smyrna , nor smyrna is not thyatira , nor either of them pergamus , but each one distinct of themselves , having officers of their owne , which did not belong to others : vertues of their owne for which others are not praised , corruptions of their owne , for which others are not blamed ; if it were not thus , then when lacdicea is condemned for lukewarmenesse , or ephesus for declining , all the rest should be reproved also : and when philadelfia is praised , all the rest should be praised also , which we see is otherwise . now from hence the consequence is certaine , that therefore they are combined by some covenant each one amongst themselves ; for there is nothing els without this that wil sufficiently distinguish them . the spirit of god and faith in their hearts , is common to all christians under heaven , and in heaven also , and therefore this is not the thing that makes distinction . nor is it habitation in the same towne together , for that may be common to such christians as are not of this church , and usually is to many that are no christians . as it is with companies in london ; as the company of goldsmiths , &c. that many others dwell in the same towne with them , yea it may be in the same streete that are not of their company : and therefore it is not meerely habitation that doth distinguish them from others , but some combination and agreement amongst themselves ; so it is not habitation in the same towne that distinguisheth churches , and church-members from other men , but their mutuall agreement and combination and joyning themselves together in an holy covenant with god. if the spirit of god and faith in their hearts cannot distinguish one church from another , because these are common to them all , then how can covenant distinguish them , sith all churches are joyned by covenant one as well as another ? it is not a covenant simply or a covenant in generall that doth constitute a church , or distinguish one church from another , but a covenant with application and appropriation to these persons . even as it is in marriage , though all married couples be united by covenant , and a covenant wherein one couple promiseth the same duties that another couple doth , yet a covenant with application and appropriation of the duties covenanted to this man and this woman in particular , such a covenant is the very thing that make a couple , man and wife together , and gives them mutuall power over each other , as husband and wife , and puts a distinction between them and all other men and women in the world . and so it is in this case ; a covenant to performe church-duties with application and appropriation to such persons , is the very thing that constitutes a church , and distinguisheth one church from another . and thus much concerning the former of the two particulars , to shew the use of church-covenant , viz. that it is that whereby a company doe become a church . the second particular is this , that taking hold of the covenant , or joyning in it , is that which makes a particular person a member of a church . and this followes upon the former , and that may be the first argument to prove it . if joyning in covenant be that which makes a company to become a church , then taking hold of that covenant is requisite to make a particular person become a member of the church : but the first is true , as hath been shewed before ; therefore the second is true also : if compacting and conjoyning of stones and pieces of timber be , that that makes an house , then a particular stone cannot become a part of that house , till it be compacted and con●oyned to the rest : but the former is true , even in the church of god , which is the spirituall spouse and citie of god , living stones , christians , beleevers must be compacted together , and builded up together , ephes . 2. 21. 22. psal . 12● 3. and therefore the latter is true also , that a particular christian becomes a member of the church , a part of that building by being combined with the rest . a second argument may be drawne from the scripture , isa . 56. 3 , 6 , 7. let not the sonne of the stranger , that hath joyned himselfe to the lord , speake , saying , the lord hath utterly separated me from his people , &c. the sonnes of the strangers that joyne themselves to the lord , to serve him , &c. and take hold of my covenant , even them will i bring to my holy mountaine , and make them joyfull in my house of prayer , &c. concerning which scripture , note three things to the present purpose . first , that these strangers were members of christ , true beleevers , joyned to god by faith ; for it is said , they have joyned themselves to the lord , v. 3 & v. 6. that they loved the name of the lord , served him , and kept his sabbaths , v. 6. and yet for all this they were not as yet joyned as members of the visible church , for if they had been joyned , there would have been no cause for such a complaint , the lord hath separated me from his people , v. 3. besides , bringing them into the church as members , and granting them the priviledge of members , is promised as a reward and blessing upon this their joyning to the lord by faith and obedience , v. 7. and therefore it is not the same , but a distinct thing from it ; the one being promised as a reward and blessing upon the other . secondly , the lord promiseth that he will make them members of his church : them will i bring to my holy mountaine , and make them joyfull in my house of prayer . thirdly , that among other things requisite to make them members , this was one , viz. the taking hold of that covenant which was between the church of israel and god , v. 6. so that hence we may gather , that men may be members of christ , joyned to the lord by faith and love , and yet for the present not be members of the visible church : and that when god is so gracious to true beleevers , as to make them members of his visible church , it is requisite that they joyne in covenant before . but might not faith in christ , beleeving in heart on the god of israel , be all the taking hold of the covenant that is here meant . not so , but over and above that , here is also meant their open profession of their faith in the god of israel , and open binding of themselves by covenant to all such duties of faith and obedience , as god required of the church of israel , and the members thereof . now distinctly take the answer to this objection in three or foure particular propositions . first , there was a covenant between the church of israel and god , exod. 19. 5 , 6 , 7 , 8. ezek 16. 8. deut. 29. 10. &c. secondly , this covenant was mutuall ; not onely a promise on gods part to be their god , and to take them for his people , but also reciprocally on their part to give up themselves unto god to be his people , and to doe the dutie of people to their god ; the covenant is not meerely to receive from god , and promise nothing back againe to him ; nor doth god binde himselfe therein , and leave men at libertie , but it is mutuall on both parts , as these scriptures declare ; gen. 17. 1. exod. 197. 8. deut. 5. 27. & 26. 16 , 17. hos . 2. 23. & zach. 13. 9. thirdly , hereupon it followes , that if men had not promised , and also performed , in some measure of truth , the duties of faith and obedience unto god , they had not taken hold of the covenant , but had discovenanted themselves , notwithstanding all the promises of god unto their fathers or others . thus though god promised abraham to be a god to him , and to his seede in their generations , gen. 17. 7. yet the ishmaelites and edomites descending from abraham , were discovenanted by not promising nor performing those duties of faith and obedience , which god required on the peoples part : when a covenant containes promises on gods part , and duties also on mans , he doth not take hold of the covenant that takes one part , and leaves another . fourthly , to beleeve what god promised in the covenant for his part , and to promise in a private way the duties of obedience on mans part , was not sufficient to make these strangers members of the church , but they must doe it openly and in the view of the church , else the church could have had no warrant to have admitted such into their fellowship , if their faith and obedience had not been visibly professed , exod. 12. 43. 48 2 chron. 23. 19. and in as much as the covenant was mutuall , when these strangers did manifest their taking hold of the covenant , they manifested and professed both faith and obedience , both that they beleeved what god promised , and that they would be obedient to what he required ; if any should have claimed church-fellowship , saying , i beleeve the promises , but would not binde himselfe to any duties of evangelicall obedience , this had been a taking hold of the covenant by the halves , a taking of one part of it in seeming and pretence , and a leaving of another ; but it would not have been sufficient to have brought a man into the fellowship of the church : such of the congregation of israel as would not come to hierusalem to enter into covenant , were to be separated from the church in the dayes of ezra , ezra 10. 8. and therefore such as being strangers should refuse to enter into it , could not be admitted into the church ; so that the taking hold of gods covenant , which is there required to make these strangers members of the church , is a beleeving in heart on the god of israel , and an open profession that they did beleeve , and likewise a promise of obedience or subjection unto the god of israel , and an open professing of such obedience and subjection ; and that is the joyning in covenant which we stand for , before a man can be a member of a church , even an open profession of faith and of obedience . a third argument is taken from those scriptures which shew that men become members by being added to the church , or being joyned to them , act. 2. 47. & 5. 13. & 9. 26. if men become members of the church by being added or joyned , then joyning in covenant ( or professing of subjection to the gospel or covenant of god ) is that whereby a man becomes a member of a church : but the former is true , as appeares by the scriptures forementioned , and therefore the latter is true also . but all the doubt in this argument will be concerning the consequence of the major proposition ; but that may be made good by this reason , and the confirmation of it , viz. that a man cannot be added or joyned to the church by any other meanes without this joyning in covenant . the truth of which assertion will appeare by shewing the insufficiency of all other means , without this joyning in covenant , and that may be done in answer to the objections ensuing . when men were added to the church , it may be , no more is meant but that god did convert them and worke faith in their hearts , and that converting of them was the adding of them to the church . this cannot be all ; for , first , saul was converted and had faith wrought in his heart , and yet he was not at the first received for a member of the church at hierusalem ( though he assayed to be joyned unto them , ) till they were better satisfied in his spirituall estate by the testimony of barnabas , act. 9. 26 , 27 , 28. and those strangers , isa . 56. ( as was said before ) were joyned to the lord by being converted , and having faith wrought in their hearts , and yet they doe lament it with griefe , that they were not joyned as members to the visible church : the lord hath separated me from his people , say they , ver . 3. the old saying is true concerning the visible church , there are many wolves within , and many sheepe without . secondly , those that were joyned were beleevers before they joyned ; for it is said , divers were added , ver . 14. thirdly , those that were added to the church , were added and joyned to them by such an act as others durst not put forth , act. 5. 13. of the rest durst no man joyne unto them , and therefore it was not by the irresistable act of god in converting of them , but by some voluntary act of their owne choice and consent ; for gods converting grace depends not upon mans daring , or not daring to receive it . if to be joyned be no more but to be converted , then when it is said , some durst not be joyned , the meaning should be , they durst not be converted , nor suffer faith to be wrought in them ; which is grosse arminianisme , suspending the converting grace of god upon the free will of the creature . fourthly , and as this joyning which others durst not doe , cannot be meant of being converted ; so if it be well considered , what the thing was wherein they durst not joyne , it may appeare that it was nothing els but this , that they durst not agree , and engage themselves to be of their body and societie ; that is , they durst not joyne in covenant with them . for it cannot be meant of dwelling in the towne with them , for this they both durst doe and did : nor is it onely of joyning to heare the word in their assembly , for this also they durst doe , and many did it in great multitudes , so that many by hearing the word became beleevers , and were added to the lord both of men and women , ver . 14. at this very time when it is said of some they durst not joyne unto them : nor is it of joyning to them in affection , or approbation of their way , for this they also durst doe and did expresse so much in magnifying and commending them , when yet they durst not joyne unto them , ver . 13. which magnifying of them doth imply that they heard their doctrine , and saw their practise , and approved it , and highly commended them for the same : wherefore seeing this joyning , which some durst not doe , cannot be meant of being converted , nor of joyning in habitation , nor of joyning in affection , nor in hearing the word in their assembly , nor of approbation , and expressions that way , it remaineth that it must be meant of joyning in that neere relation of church-fellowship amongst them , so as to be engaged by voluntary consent and agreement to be members of their church . fiftly , if joyning to the church , were no more but to be converted , then he that were converted were joyned as a member of every visible church throughout the world , which were a great confusion of that order , and distinction of churches , which the lord hath appointed . men may be joyned to the church , in heartie affection and love , and yet without any covenant . true , but this will not make them members of that church , for then saul was a member of the church at hierusalem , afore he was joyned a member , for he was joyned to them in heartie affection afore , and therefore assayed to joyne as a member ; and so were they that durst not joyne , act. 5. 13. yea then a man should be a member of many churches , yea of all christian churches in the world ; for he is to love them , and beare heartie affection to them all ; the true members of the churches in england are united in heartie affection , to the churches in scotland , in holland , in france , in new-england , &c. and yet they are not members of all these churches , nor subject to their censures as members are . but the reason of that is because they doe not dwell among them in the same towne . neither would habitation with them in the same towne , make a man a member of the church there , if there be no more then so . suppose saul to have dwelt in the same house afore his conversion in which he dwelt after , which is not unpossible nor unlikely ; yet we see he was no member of the church at hierusalem , afore his conversion , no nor of some time after , though he might have dwelt in an house in the midst of the christians , and church-members there . the members of the dutch and french churches in london , or other townes in england , are not members of the english-congregations or churches , no more then the english are of theirs , and yet they dwell promiscuously together in the same streete of the same towne . towne-dwelling would not make a man a free-man of a company in london , or some other corporation ; for many others dwell in the towne with them ; yea it may be in the same streete , that are not free of their company , and so it is in this case . but the reason why such as dwell in towne with the church , are not members thereof , may be , because they frequent not their . assemblies . idiots and infidells might come into the publick meetings among the corinthians , 1 cor. 14. 23 , 24 , 25. yet idiots and infidells were not therefore members of the church . and saul after his conversion might have come in among the church in time of publick duties , and have seene and heard all that they had done : yet this would not have made him of one body with them . some indians , moores , and other naturall persons come into our meetings in new-england , some of their owne accord , and others by the command or counsell of their masters and governours yet no man can say , that all these are hereby made church-members . wherefore seeing neither conversion , nor loving affection , nor cohabitation , nor coming into their meetings , doth joyne a man as a member of the visible church ( for some men have all these , and yet are not members , and others are sometimes members of the visible churches , and yet want some of these , are hypocrites and want sound conversion ) it remaineth therefore that as sound conversion makes a man fit matter for a church ; so profession of his faith , and of his subjection to the gospel , and the churches approbation , and acceptance of him ( which is the summe of church-covenant ) is the formall cause that gives him the being of a member . but joyning doth not alway signifie joyning in covenant ; philip joyned to the eunnuchs chariote , and dust to mens feete , act. 8. 29. & luke 10 , 11. and yet there was no covenant , and therefore men may joyne to the church without any covenant . the word indeed may expresse any close joyning , whether naturall , ( as the branch is joyned to the vine , or an arme or other member to the body ) or artificiall , as when two stickes were joyned to become one in ezekiels hand , ezek. 37. or when carpenters or masons doe joyne pieces of stone or timber together , to make one house , neh. 4. 6. ezr. 4. 12. but is not onely the force of the word that is stood upon . but when joyning is used to expresse such joyning , wherein a man voluntarily takes on him a new relation , there it alwayes implyes a covenant , whether the relation be morall and civill , or religious and ecclesiasticall : we speake of voluntary relation , for there are naturall relations , as betweene parents and children : and these need no covenant , there is no covenant to make a man a parent , or a childe ; there are also violent relations , as between conquerour and captives , and in these there is no covenant neither ; but others are voluntary , and these alwayes imply a covenant , and are founded therein , whether they be morall and civill ( as between husband and wife , pro. 2. 17. between master and servants , luk. 15. 15. between prince and subject , between partners in trade , 2 chro. 20. 35 , 36 , 37. where the covenant or agreement is , that men shall bare such a share of charges , and receive such a share of profits : ) or religious , as between minister and people , between the church and the members : all these are done by way of covenant . a man cannot joyne himselfe to a woman as her husband , but by way of covenant : a man cannot joyne himselfe to another as a servant , or apprentise , but by way of covenant ; and so may we say of all the rest ; nor into any body corporate , but by the same way and means . if men be united into a body politick or incorporate , a man cannot be said to be joyned to them by meere heartie affection , unlesse withall he joynes himselfe unto them by some contract or covenant . now of this nature is every particular church , a body incorporate , 1 cor. 12. 27. yee are the body of christ , &c. and hath power to cast out , 1 cor. 5. 13. and to forgive and receive in penitents , 2 cor. 2. 7. 8 as a body incorporate ; and therefore he that will joyne unto them , must doe it by way of covenant or agreement ; and so this answer to this objection , may be a fourth argument to prove the point in hand , that joyning in covenant is that which makes a man , a member of a church . all voluntary relations , all relations which are neither naturall nor violent , are entred into by way of covenant . but he that joynes into a church as a member , or enters into a church , doth take upon him such a relation ; therefore joyning ▪ to a church as a member , is by way of covenant . a fifth argument may be drawne from the power which all churches , officers and members , have over all their members in the lord. if all churches , officers , and members , have power in the lord over all their members , then joyning in covenant is necessary to make a man a member of a church , but the former is true , therefore the latter is true also . the assumption in this argument , that all churches have power over their members , is proved from 1 cor. 5. 4 , 5. 13. where the apostle reproveth the corinthians for suffering the incestuous man amongst them , and commands them to deliver him to satan , and cast him out from amongst them . now this he would not have done , if they had had no power over him , or if there had been any roome for them to say , wee have nothing to doe with him , wee have no power over him . and the same is prooved in other scriptures also ; as , mat. 18. 17. psal . 149. 6. 7 , 8 , 9. and the consequence of the major proposition , viz. that then members doe engage themselves by covenant , is proved by this reason ; that churches have no power over such as have not engaged themselves by covenant , and committed power unto them , by professing to be subject to all the ordinances of christ amongst them . the truth whereof may appeare by two reasons : first , because all christians have power and right , jure divino , to choose their owne officers to whom they commit their soules , act. 6. & 1. & 14. 23. where the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , imports choosing by election : and so the word is used and translated , 2 cor. 8. 19. he was chosen by the churches , &c. it is not ministeriall gifts that makes a man a minister to every church , nor investeth him with spirituall power over them , nor though he dwell amongst them , unlesse they call him , and he accept of that call : and as they have power to choose their officers , so likewise to choose their brethren according to god , rom. 14. 1. now if they have power to choose their officers and brethren , then none can have power over them as officers and brethren , without their owne consent , and whom they never chose , nor promised by any covenant or engagement to be subject to the lord. secondly , if the church should exercise any act of church-power over such a man as never entred into covenant with them ( suppose to excommunicate him for whoredome or drunkennesse , or the like ) the man might protest against their act , and their sentence , as coram non judice , and they could not justifie their proceedings , if indeed there have passed no covenant or engagement between him and them . if he shall say , you have nothing to doe to passe sentence or censure upon me , i am none of your church , but of another church ; suppose in holland , in france , &c. and i am onely here now for merchandise sake , or upon some other occasion : what shall they say to stop his mouth , if there never passed any covenant between him and them . but ministers have power over the people by the word of god , heb. 13. 17. 1 thes . 5. 12. 1 tim. 5. 17. and not by mens engaging themselves by covenant . but what is it that makes men ministers to such a people , officers to such a church , or maketh them sheepe of my flocke ? is it not those scriptures that makes every man a pastour , or teacher , or ruler to a people , unlesse they call him to that office ; and then in so doing they covenant and engage themselves to be subject to him in the lord , and then those scriptures take hold on them . one might as well say , it is not the covenanting of a wife to her husband that gives him power over her , but the word of god ; for as the word of god commands people to obey their ministers , so it commands wives to be subject to their husbands , ephes . 5. 22. and yet all men know , a man cannot take this woman for his ▪ wife but by covenant . so that if shee once makes her selfe a wife by her owne voluntary covenant , then the word of god takes hold on her , and bindes her to doe the duties of a wife : but if shee ▪ hath made no covenant , the man hath no power over her as her husband , neither is shee his wife ; so if men once make themselves members of such a church , sheepe of such a mans flocke , by their own voluntary covenant , then the word of god takes hold of them , and bindes them to doe the duties of members to their fellow-brethren , and of people to their pastours or ministers . but if they never chose such a man to be their minister , nor covenanted to be subject to him in the lord , he then can have no power over them as a minister unto them , because they have right to chose their owne ministers . a sixth argument may be taken from the distinction that is between members , and not members . if there be by the word of god a distinction , between members of the church and such as are no members , then joyning in covenant is necessary to the being of a member ; but the former is true , as appeares 1 cor. 5. 12. some are within , and may be judged by the church , and others are without , and may not ▪ and therefore the latter is true also . and the reason of the consequence is because there is nothing else without this joyning in covenant , that can sufficiently distinguish them ; it is not faith and grace in their hearts , for some men are members of the visible church , and yet have no grace , and others may have grace , and yet be no members , and therefore this is not the thing that doth distinguish them , nor is it affection , nor cohabitation , nor every approbation of the word of god , and the wayes of his church , nor comming into their assemblies to heare the word ; but these things were touched before , and therefore may be here the more briefly passed over . and so much shall suffice to have spoken of the second particular , concerning the use of church-covenant , that it is by joyning therein that a particular person becomes a member of a church . but here it will be needfull to remove sundry objections , which may seeme to some to be of great weight against church-covenant , that so by the removing of them , the truth may be the more cleared , to fuller satisfaction , if it be the will of god. church-covenant is a terme that is not found in scripture . first , so is sacrament , trinitie , &c. and yet those termes may be lawfully used , because the thing meant thereby is found . secondly , but seeing the covenant is between the lord and his church , as the two parties that are confederate , it is all one whether it be called the lords covenant , or the church-covenant : as when mamre , aver , & eschol were confederate with abraham , gen. 14. 13. might not one truely say , abraham was confederate with them ? relatives doe mutually put and establish one another . thirdly , the scripture allowes both the lords covenant with the church , eze. 16. 8. & the peoples covenant or saints covenant , or churches covenant with him , deut. 29. 12. psal . 50. 5. jer. 50. 5. fourthly , there is good reason for both the words ; both the lords covenant , and the church-covenant , because both are confederate ; and for that of church-covenant , there is this reason also , viz. to distinguish it from other covenants , as a marriage-covenant , pro. 2. 17. and a brotherly covenant , 1 sam. 20. 8. the church-covenant being thus called not onely because they are a church , or members thereof that make it , but also because they enter into it in reference to church-estate and church-duties : the duties which they bind themselves unto in this covenant being such especially as concern a church and the members thereof . but this church-covenant puts some disparagement upon the covenant of grace , which every beleever is already entred into with god , and seeme to charge the same with insufficiency ; for every second covenant doth argue that the first was not faultlesse , heb. 8. 7. 1. a second covenant doth argue that the first was not faultlesse , where the covenants are contrary one to another , as the covenant of grace , and the covenant of works are , and so it is most true , that the bringing in of the free covenant of grace did argue that righteousnes and life could not be attained by the law , or covenant of works ; for if there had been a law given which could have given life , verily righteousnesse should have been by the law. gal. 3. 21. rom. 8. 3. 2. but if it be the same covenant that is renewed or made againe , though upon a new occasion , no man can say that entring into the same the second time , or a third , or a fourth , doth disanull the first , or cast disparagement upon the same . the covenant of works given to adam was not blamed or faulted , because it was renewed in sinai . the covenant of grace was first given to adam in paradise after his fall , afterward to abraham , then to the people of israel under types and shadows ; and againe after the coming of christ in the flesh ; yet none of these doth disanull the former , or argue the same to be faulty ; and the reason is , because it is still the same covenant though renewed upon new occasions ; and in some particulars in some other manner . and the like we say concerning church-covenant , or the covenant which a man makes when he enters into the church , viz. that it is not another covenant contrary to the covenant of grace , which every beleever is brought into at his first conversion , but an open profession of a mans subjection to that very covenant , specially in the things which concerne church estate , into which estate the man is now entring . it is not lawfull to make such a covenant as the church-covenant , because it is not in our power to keep it , and we do not know whether god will give us power . this ground is very true , that no man hath power of himselfe to any thing that good is , but all a mans power and abilitie must come of god through christ , 2. cor. 3. 5. phil. 2. 13. joh. 15. 5. but the inference is not good , that therefore it should be unlawfull to ento into church-covenant : for 1. by the same reason , all promises are unlawfull , and all covenants whatsoever ; as the covenant of marriage , the covenant of service , yea and the personall covenant of grace , when a particular soule promiseth faith and new obedience ; for there is none of these , no not the covenant of marriage , which a man is able of himself to keep , as the adultery of david and bathsheba , among others , doth plainly prove . 2. god hath promised to give power to them that in self-deniall seek it of him , and trust to his promise for it . ezek. 36. 27. jer. 31. 33. rom. 6. 14. jer. 32. 40. the true inference therefore from this ground , from mans disabilitie to performe were this , that therefore a man should not enter into church covenant in his owne strength , for that was peters fault in promising not to deny christ , but to die with him rather : but church-covenant , as also all other promises , should be entred into , in an humble looking up to christ jesus for help and assistance to performe . thou therefore my sonne , be strong in the grace that is in christ jesus , 2. tim. 2. 1. god disalloweth covenants of mans making ( and so our church-covenant ) in those words , but not by thy covenant . ezek. 16. 61. god doth not reprove them there for making covenant , for then he were contrary to himselfe , who elsewhere called them to do it , exod. 29. deut. 29. and commended them for it , psal . 50. 5. yea and in that very place of ezek. 16. acknowledgeth a covenant betweene him and them , ver . 60. 62. but the meaning is , he would do them good , but not for their good keeping the covenant of works , for they had very sinfully broken it , ver . 59 but even as he saith elsewhere , not for their sakes , or for their righteousnesse , ezek. 36. 32. deut. 9. 4 , 5 , 6. but what force is there in this arguing , viz. if god will do us good , but not for our good keeping the covenant of works , then it is not lawfull to promise obedience to the covenant of grace , in such things as concerne church estate ; all men may easily see that here is a plaine non sequitur . this entring into covenant may keep out many good men from joyning to the churches , because they are not satisfied about it : and therefore it is better laid aside . it is not impossible , but good men may for a time be unsatisfied about it , till they understand the nature and use of it , and yet the thing be warrantable enough for all that in the sight of god ; the tribes were troubled at the altar set up upon the banks of jordan by the two tribes and an halfe , till they understood the intent and use of it , and for what purpose it was erected : and then they were satisfied . josh . 22. and the same may be said of peters eating with the gentiles , which at the first was very offensive to them of the circumcision , till they understood what peter had to say for his defence therein , and then they rested well satisfied , act. 11. but if men understand what the church-covenant is , there is no reason that good men should be troubled at it ; it being nothing else but a promise of obedience unto the gospel of christ , or of such duties as the gospel requireth of all christians in church-estate : for , will good men refuse to obey the gospel , or submit to the ordinances of christ ? or will they refuse to professe and promise so much ? if a man understand what it is , and what we meane by it , and yet refuse to enter into it when he hath opportunitie thereto , such refusing is no part of his goodnesse , but is to be reckoned amongst his corruptions ; it is ignorance at the best , and if not so , then it may be perversenesse of will , or some want of will to performe obedience to the gospel . and surely there is smal hope that such would yeeld subjection and obedience to the gospel , who do refuse to professe or promise it . but the scripture , act. 2. 41. tels of joyning to the church without any covenant . for it was not possible that 3000. should enter into covenant in one day . two things may be said in answer to this objection . first , that 3000. were not so many , but that joyning in covenant might easily be done by them all , in one day . for , 1. it was at penticost , at which time of the yeer the dayes were at the longest : and , 2. the scripture tels us , that david made a covenant with all the tribes of israel in one day , 2. sam. 5 1 , 2 , 3. the articles of the covenant betweene david and the tribes , and so betweene this 3000. and the lord might be openly declared , and they both the one and the other might by some signe or other , expresse their consent thereunto in one day . secondly , as joyning in covenant is a thing that might be done , so it is more then probable that indeed it was done , by those 3000. soules for it is said , ver . 41. that they gladly received the word , that is , they openly professed that they did with all their hearts receive it , for this receiving of the word is noted as a condition , upon which they were admitted to baptisme , and therefore it was not onely an inward receiving of it in their hearts , but also an open professing that they did receive it ; for an inward receiving of it in their hearts , without an open professing thereof outwardly , would not have been sufficient for the admitting of them unto baptisme . now this word which they received was an exhortation to repentance for sinne , and to faith in the promise , ver . 38 39. and to obedience in severing themselves from others , and saving themselves from that untoward generation , ver . 40. and therefore when they openly professed , that they gladly received this word , there was an open professing of their repentance for sinne , ver . 40. of their faith in the promise , and of obedience to the commandement , which is nothing else , but the very summe of church-covenant : yea , and further , their very preparation to this repentance , faith and obedience , in that true compunction and sorrow of soul , was also openly made manifest . ver . 37. but yet there would not be such long narrations , of every one severally as now are used , when men do enter into church-covenant , when each one makes a good long speech , in the profession of his faith and repentance . when the thing is certaine , as was shewed before , that they did openly professe repentance , faith and obedience , it is not difference in the length or largenesse of their speeches in expressing of themselves , that can make any difference in the thing : majus & minus non diversificant speciem . and we denie not but they might be briefer , because there was not such need they should be long in regard of some difference betweene them and us , their time and ours : first there were the apostles present to heare their confessions , and to judge thereof , who were men of very good discerning , and therefore briefer expressing of mens selves might suffice ; whereas the best christians , yea the best ministers amongst us are not to be compared to the apostles ; and therefore as we need more time for study , and for preparation for our sermons then they did : so likewise we need more time to heare , and try the soundnesse of mens repentance towards god , and faith towards our lord jesus christ . yet this we may adde withall , that if the apostles and those primative christians , men of such excellent discerning were sometimes deceived , and could not alwayes so discern , but that some hypocrites would creep into the church : as the example of ananias and saphira doth witnesse ; how much more need is there , that the churches of god in these dayes ( being far inferiour to them ) should be very watchfull and circumspect in trying the spirituall estates of them that offer to come into the church ? secondly , their times also differed from ours : for their christianitie was a matter of reproach and danger of excommunication , joh. 9. 22. of imprisonment , act. 4. 3. and 5. 18. and the like . and therefore to see men now to make open profession of their faith in christ jesus , whose servants and disciples were so hated , and who himselfe but a while before was crucified , this was not an ordinarie matter : and therefore in words , men might be the briefer when they came to be received into the church : but our times in new england do not persecute christ , and christians , and christian churches , but countenance them , and protect them ; and therefore there is more need now to be more studious in examination of mens estates when they offer themselves for church members : when the jews were in favour , many of the people of the land became jews , esth . 8. 17. but why is there so little proofe of this church-covenant in the new testament ? 1. suppose the new testament said nothing of it , yet it might have ground sufficient from the scriptures of the old testament ; for if it was gods revealed will in those dayes , that a companie should become a church , and particular persons become members of that church by way of covenant , we may be sure it is so now likewise , unlesse covenanting were peculiar to the jewish paedigogie ; indeed if it had never been used in those times , but were some new ordinance , peculiar to the dayes of the new testament , in such cases also a ground from the scriptures of the new testament were necessarie , as there is in all such things wherein there is any change or variation , from what was used in those times afore christ , as that there should not be nationall churches , but congregationall , and not one visible church , but many , that there should be baptisme , and the lords supper : these are matters that are not found in the old testament , nor were appointed to be used in those dayes , and therefore we must have warrant for them in the new , and so we have . but for the covenant it is otherwise , it is no new ordinance peculiar to the dayes of the gospel , nor any leviticall ordinance peculiar to the jewish pedigogie ; and therefore the scriptures of the old testament that give warrant for it , may be sufficient as hath been shewed afore . 2. and yet there is not wanting good warrant for it , that it ought to be used , in the dayes of the new testament . for , 1. the prophets do foretell it , isa . 56. 6 , 7. and 44. 5. and jer. 50. 5. ezek. 20. 37. and in sundrie other places , to omit the rest at this time , because some of them have been spoken of before ; onely let those words of isa . 44. 5. be well considered , and see if they do not plainly hold forth that in the dayes of the new testament , men should openly professe their faith , and solemnly bind themselves by covenant , to be the lords people , one shall say , i am the lords , and another shall call himself by the name of jacob , and another shall subscribe with his hand , and sirname himself by the name of israel . these words are so plaine for open professing of faith in the lord , and open binding of mens selves by covenant unto him , as we conceive nothing need be more . 2. the apostles do sufficiently testifie , that such a thing was practised in their dayes , else how should we understand that fellowship in the gospel in its full latitude and breadth , phil. 1. 5. if this combining into church-fellowship be no part thereof ; yea when it is said , they continued stedfastly , or as the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , may well be translated , they strongly did cleave together , or hold together in such a fellowship , which was not preaching and hearing the doctrine of the apostles , nor sacraments , nor prayer , but a thing distinct from all these . if this combining themselves into a spirituall fellowship and societie of church-state be no part thereof , we know not how to understand it , nor what that fellowship should meane ; if doctrine , and sacraments , and prayer had not been particularly mentioned , in the same place , it might have been thought that the fellowship in which they so steadfastly clave together had been no more , but their coming together to observe these said ordinances , and their communion therein . but when all these are particularly mentioned , and fellowship mentioned among them , as a thing distinct from the rest , we may not confound it with the rest . we might as well say , that by doctrine is meant sacraments , and by sacraments is meant prayer ; as to say that by fellowship is meant nothing else but the exercise of doctrine , and sacraments , and prayer . and if these as they are distinctly named , be distinct ordinances , and may not be confounded , then fellowship being named in the same manner imports something distinct from them all , and may not be confounded with them , nor with any of them , no more then the other may be confounded one with another . and if so , then as this fellowship may import , the communion of their gift and goods one for the helpe of another , so it must first of all imply a combining of themselves into church-state by mutuall agreement , consent , or covenant . furthermore , when the apostle writeth , that by experience of the corinthians liberall contribution to the poore saints , men glorified god for their professed subjection to the gospel of christ , 2. cor. 9. 13. he plainly imployes thereby , that the corinthians had made a profession or promise of such subjection to the gospel as did comprehend this particular of distributing to the necessitie of the saints , among other things . and their liberall distribution which he there speaks of , was looked at as one point of their reall performance of that subjection to the gospel , which they had before professed , and promised . now the church-covenant is nothing else , but the professing or promising of such subjection , and therefore this place is another proofe of church-covenant . besides , it hath been shewed afore in argument 3. that those places which speake of being added to the church , of joyning , or assaying to joyne unto the church , act. 2. 47. and 5 13. and 9 26. are not expounded according to the full meaning of them , when they are understood of any other joyning , if joyning in covenant be left out . and therefore the scriptures of the new testament do beare good witnesse unto church-covenant , though , as we said before , the scriptures of the old testament might have been sufficient if the new testament had spoken nothing of it . but baptisme makes men members of the visible church , and therefore the covenant is needlesse . this is answered in the answer to the fourth of the 32. questions , where it is shewed at large that baptisme ●● a seale of the covenant betweene god and the church , but neither makes the church , nor members of the church , nor alwayes so much as proves men to be members . this church-covenant is a late devise , and was not known in ancient time , and therefore is to be rejected . first , true antiquitie is that of the scriptures . now sith church covenant is warranted by the scripture , as hath been shewed before in this discourse , it cannot be charged to want true antiquitie . when the papists are wont to charge the doctrine of protestants with novelty , and such as was never heard of before luther , the orthodoxe are wont to answer , that if the doctrine do not agree with the scripture , then let it be condemned for noveltie ; and if it do , it is warranted by the best antiquitie , even the testimonie of god himself who is the antient of dayes : our faith , faith doctor white , is in all points the same that is contained in the scripture , and so consequently of the same antiquitie : and therefore all they that say it came up but of late , must first prove it contrary to the word of god , or else hold their peace . white , way , 44. 1. and the same we say in this particular of the church-covenant . secondly , and yet they that search the stories and writers of the times and ages next after the apostles , may find some testimonie of church-covenant in those dayes : for instance , justine martyr in his apol. 2. makes mention of three things which were required of all that were admitted into the church as members , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that is regeneration , and soundnesse in the faith , and a promise to walke in obedience to the gospel . and generally this was the practise of all those times , that never any man was admitted to baptisme , nor his children neither , but they put him to answer three questions , abrenuntios ? whereto he answered , abrenuntio . credis ? whereto his answer was , credo : and spondes ? to which he answered , spondes . so that here was an open declaration of his repentance from dead works , and of the soundnesse of his faith , in the two first particulars , and an open binding himself by covenant or promise to walke according to the gospel , in the third . but much needs not to be said in this point , unto them that do acknowledge scripture antiquitie to be sufficient , though after times should be found to swerve from the rules and patterns that are therein contained . if church-covenant be so necessarie , then all the reformed churches are to be condemned as no churches ; for they have no such covenant . they that have knowne those churches , not onely by their writings , and confessions of their faith , in synods and otherwise ; but also by living amongst them , and being eye-witnesses of their order , do report otherwise of them , viz. that they are combined together by solemne covenant with god and one another . zepperus , speaking of the manner , used in the reformed churches , in admitting the children of church-members to the lords table , when they came to age , and have been sufficiently catechised , and instructed in the doctrine of religion ▪ tells us , that such children are admitted to the lords table , by publick profession of faith , and entring into covenant . consuetum est , saith l●e , ut qui per atatem inque doctrinâ catecheticâ profectum ad sacram coenam primum admittuntur , fidei confessionem coram totâ ecclesiâ publice edant per parentes aut qui parentum loco sunt , jussû ministri , in ecclesia conspectum producti : quòdque in illa confessione , per dei gratiam perstare , ac , juxta illam , vitam instituere , insuper etiam disciplina ecclesiasticae ultrò ac spoute suâ subjicere sese velint , spondeant atque stipulentur , polit. eccles . lib. 1. cap. 14. p. 158. that is , the manner is , that they who by reason of age and proficiencie in the doctrine of catechisme are first admitted to the lords supper , should publickly before the whole church make confession of their faith , being brought forth into the sight of the church by their parents , or them that are instead of parents , at the appointment of the minister ; and likewise should promise and covenant by the grace of god to continue in that faith which they have confessed , and to lead their lives according to it ; yea , and moreover to subject themselves freely and willingly to the discipline of the church . these words we see are full and plaine , that children are not in those churches received to the lords supper , without personall confession of faith , and entring into covenant before ; and if they tooke this course with children come to age , there is as much reason , or more , that the same course should be holden with men of yeers , when they are admitted members . and so the same zepperus , speaking of the consociation of churches amongst themselves by mutuall confederation , hath these words , which as they may be applyed to the combining of many churches , so may they be combining of many members of the same church , 〈◊〉 illa 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , quam in symbolo profite nunc apostolico , nihil aliud hic requirit , & vult , quam obligationem omnium ecclesiae membrorum & confoederationem , &c. that is , that communion of saints which we professe in the creed , doth require and meane nothing else but an obligation of all the members of the church , and a binding of them together by covenant . polit. eccles . li. 3 c. 8. p 721. to these testimonies of z●pp●r●● , those words may be added of mr. parker our own countreyman , a man of singular note for learning and holinesse , who also himselfe lived sometimes beyond sea in the reformed churches , and there ended his dayes , so that we may safely give the more credit to his testimonie , he having so good meanes fully to know the state and order of those churches . now he speaketh of a solennis forma absque quâ in ecclesiae alicujus communionem nullus ritè recipitur : of a solemne forme , without which no man is rightly received into the communion of the church , hath these words . hic mos ille est reformatarum ecclesiarum non solum in lapsis restituendis , sed in extra●eis , i●ò quibuscunque recipiendis qui ad habitandum alicubi consident , etsi fortè in ecclesiâ illius loci quo ante commo● abantur , juxta hanc formam admissi prius fuerant . examinat presbyterium , plebs consentit , quisque testes vita sua secum adfert , vel testimonia sal●em : publicatur nomen cuiusque competentis pro con●io●e , admonetur quisque siquid habeat quod excipiat , ut denunciet presbyteris . si nihil contrà adferatur , admittitur quidem , sed non nisi solerni pactione cum deo & cum ecclesiâ ▪ spondet verò ecclesiae ▪ se ambulaturum prout sanctam illam communionem decet ; disciplinae illius ecclesiae subjacere velle , se fratribus illius communionis invigilaturum juxta christi praeceptum , matth. 18. 17. ut praeveniantur sanentur que scandala , & illi ad studium bonorum operum provehantur . that is , this is the manner of the reformed churches , not onely in restoring such as have fallen , but in admitting of strangers , yea of all whoever they be , who do sit down in any place for habitation , though perhaps they have been formerly admitted after the same manner in the church where they have formerly dwelt ; the presbytery doth examine , the people do consent , every man brings with him witnesses of his life , or at least-wise testimonies : the name of each one that desires to be a member , is published in the assembly , every one is admonished if he have any exception against the party , to bring it to the presbytery . if nothing be brought against him , then indeed he is admitted ; but yet no otherwise then by a solemne covenant with god and the church ; and to the church he promiseth that he will walk as becometh that holy fellowship , that he will be subject to the discipline of that church , that he will watch over the brethren of that communion , according to the command of christ , mat. 18. 17. that offences may be prevented and healed , &c. polit. eccles lib. 3 cap. 16. § 4. pag. 171 , 172. much more he hath to the same purpose in that place , alledging sundry canons and decrees of synods of reformed churches , wherein they have determined that none should be received into their churches , but by this way of solemne covenant . and others that have lived amongst them may have been eye-witnesses that this is their usuall practise . but what shall be said of the congregations in england , if churches must be combined by covenant ? doth not this doctrine blot out all those congregations out of the catalogue of churches ? for what ever covenant may be found in the reformed churches in other parts , yet it is plaine that the english have none . though we deny not but the covenant in many of those congregations is more implicite and not so plaine as were to be desired ; ( and what is amisse in them , in their materialls , or in want of explicite combining of pure matter , or many of their wayes , wee will not take upon us to defend ) yet we hope we may say of them with master parker , polit. eccles . lib 3. cap. 16. § 1. pag. 167. non abost ea realis & substantialis ( quanquam magis quàm par●rat implicita ) coitio in foedus , eaque voluntaria professio fidei substantialis : quâ ( deo gratia ) essentiam ecclesiae idque visibilis hacusque sartam tectam in angliâ conservavit ; that is , there wants not that reall and substantiall comming together , ( or agreeing in covenant , though more implica●e then were meete ) and that substantiall profession of faith , which ( thanks be to god ) hath preserved the essence of visible churches in england unto this day . the reasons why wee are loath to say , that the congregations in england are utterly without a covenant , are these : first , because there were many christian churches in england in the apostles time , or within a while after , as master fox sheweth at large , act. & mon. lib. 2. beginning pag 137. where he reporteth out of gildas , that england received the gospel in the time of tiberius the emperour , under whom christ suffered , and that joseph of arimathea was sent of philip the apostie from france to england about the yeare of christ 63. and remained in england all his time , and so he with his fellowes layd the first foundation of christian faith among the britaine people , and other preachers and teachers comming afterward , confirmed the same and increased it . also the said master fox reporteth out of tertullian , that the gospel was dispearsed abroad by the sound of the apostles into many nations , and amongst the rest into britaine , yea into the wildest places of britaine , which the romans could never attaine unto : and alledgeth also out of ni●●phorus , that simon zelotes did spread the gospel to the west ocean , and brought the same into the iles of britaine : and sundry other proofes he there hath for the same point . now if the gospel and christian religion were brought into england in the apostles times , and by their means , it is like that the english churches were then constituted by way of covenant , because that was the manner of constituting churches in the apostles time , as also in the times asore christ , as hath been shewed from the scripture before in this discourse . and if christian congregations in england were in those times combined by covenant , then eternitie of gods covenant is such , that it is not the interposition of many corruptions that may arise in after times that can disanull the same , except when men wilfully breake covenant and reject the offers of the gospel through obstinacy , which we perswade our selves they are not come unto : and consequently the covenant remaines which hath preserved the essence of churches to this day ; though the mixture of manifold corruptions , have made the covenant more implicite then were meete . secondly , because there want no good records ( as may be seene in seldens history of tithes ) to prove that in former times in england it was free for men to pay their tithes and oblations where themselves pleased : now this paying of tithes was accounted as a dutie of people to their minister , or sheepe to their pastour : and therefore seeing this was by their owne voluntary agreement and consent , their joyning to the church as members thereof , & to the ministery thereof as sheepe of such a mans flock , was also by their owne voluntary agreement and consent : and this doth imply a covenant ●● was not the precincts of parishes that did limit men in those dayes , but their owne choice . thirdly , those questions and answers ministred at baptisme , spoken of before , ( viz. do●st thou renounce ? i doe renounce : doest thou beleeve ? i doe beleeve : doest thou promise ? i doe promise ) as they were used in other places , so were they also in england , and are unto this day , though not without the mixture of sundry corruptions . now this doth imply a covenant . and when the children came to age , they were not to be admitted to the lords supper , before they had made personall confession of their owne faith , and ratified the covenant which was made at their baptisme by their parents , which course indeed afterward did grow into a sacrament of confirmation , but that was an abuse of a good order . if here it be said , that the members of the parishionall assemblies are not brought in by their owne voluntary profession , but by the authority and proclamation of the prince , and therefore they have no such covenant . the answer is , that the christian prince doth but his dutie when he doth not tollerate within his dominions any open idolatry , or the open worship of false gods by baptized persons , but suppresseth the same : and likewise when he gives free libertie to the exercise of all the ordinances of true religion , according to the minde of christ , with countenance also and encouragement unto all those whose hearts are willingly bent thereunto , ezra . 1. 1. 3. & 7. 13. and therefore this practise of his cannot overthrow the freenesse of mens ioyning in church ▪ communion , because one dutie cannot oppose nor contradict another . and suppose that this course of the magistrate should seeme to be a forcing of some to come in for members who were unfit , ( in which case it were not justifiable ) yet this doth not hinder the voluntary subjection of others , who with all their hearts desired it . when the israelites departed out of aegypt , there went a mixed multitude with them , many going with them that were not israelites indeed , exod. 12. and in the dayes of mordecay and hesther , many of the people of the lands became jewes , when the jewes were in favour and respect , est . 8. 17. and so joyned to them not of their owne voluntary minde , nor of any sincere heart towards god , but meerely for the favour or ●eare of men ; yet this forced or seined joyning of some could not hinder those that were israelites indeed from being israelites , nor make the jewes to be no jewes , no church-members . and the same may be said in this case , suppose the magistrates proclamation should be a cause , or an occasion rather , of bringing some into the church , who came not of their owne voluntary minde , but for feare , or for obteining favour , yet this cannot hinder , but others might voluntarily and freely covenant to be subject to the gospel of christ : such subjection and the promise of it being the thing which themselves did heartily desire , though the magistrate should have said nothing in it . if any shall hereupon inferre , that if the parishionall assemblies be churches , then the members of them may be admitted to church priviledges in new england , before they joyne to our churches : such one may finde his answer in the answer to the tenth of the thirty-two questions ; whereunto we doe referre the reader for this point . onely adding this , that this were contrary to the judgement and practise of the reformed churches , who doe not admit a man for member without personall profession of his faith , and joyning in covenant , though he had formerly been a member of a church in another place , as was shewed before out of master parker . lastly , if any say , that if these reasons prove the english congregations to have such a covenant as proves them to be churches , then why may not rome , and the assemblies of papists goe for true churches also ? for some man may thinke that the same things may be said for them that here in answer to this eleventh objection are said for the parishes in england : such one must remember two things : first , that we doe not say simply , a covenant makes a company a true church , but ( as was said before ) a covenant to walke in such wayes of worship to god and edification of one another , as the gospel of christ requireth . for who doubts ▪ but there may be an agreement among theeves , pro. 1. a confederation among gods enemies , psal . 83. a conspiracy among the arabians , the ammonites and ashdodites , to hinder the building of hierusalem , neh. 4. 7 , 8. and yet none of these are made true churches by such kind of confederacies or agreements . and so wee may say of the assemblies of papists , especially since the counsell of trent . if there be any agreement or confederacy among them , it is not to walke in the wayes of the gospell , but in wayes contrary to the fundamentall truths of the gospel , as idolatry in worship , heresie in doctrine , and other antichristian pollutions and corruptions : and therefore if they combined in these things , such combinations will never prove them true churches . the church is the pillar and ground of truth , 1 tim. 3. 15. but the religion of papists is so farre from truth , that whosoever liveth and beleeveth according to it , without repentance , cannot be saved . witnesse their doctrine in the point of vilifying the scriptures , and in point of free-will , and of justification by works , of the popes supremacy , of the sacrifice of the masse , of worshipping of images , &c. in regard of which , and such like , the holy ghost saith , that their religion is a sea , become as the bloud of a dead man , and every soule in that sea dyeth , rev. 16. 3. and therefore agreement in such a religion will never prove them to be true churches ; nor any assemblies of arrians , antitrinitaries , anabaptists , or famelists , supposing them also to be combined by covenant among themselves . but now for the assemblies in england , the case is farre otherwise ; for the doctrine of the articles of religion which they professe , and which they promise to hold and observe ( though some things are amisse in some of those articles , and though many persons live contrary in their lives ) yet the doctrine is such that whosoever beleeveth , and liveth according to it , shall undoubtedly be saved , and many thousands have been saved therein ▪ and therefore assemblies united by covenant to observe this doctrine may be true churches , when the assemblies of papists and others may be false , although they also were combined by covenant : the reason of the difference rising from the difference that is in the doctrine and religion which they severally professe , and by covenant binde themselves to observe , the one being fundamentally corrupt , and consequently pernicious : the other in the fundamentall points orthodoxall and sound . secondly , it must be remembred also ( which was intimated before ) that if fundamentall corruptions be professed in with impenitency and obstinacy , then god may disanull the covenant on his part , and give a bill of divorce to such a people , jere. 3. 8. now experience and the scripture also doth witnesse of the jesuited and trent-papists , that they repented not of the workes of their hands , of worshipping devills , and idolls of gold , &c. neither repented they of their murthers , nor of their sorceries , nor of their fornications , nor of their thefts , rev. 9. 20 , 21. but now for the parish assemblies in england , we hope that we may safely say , they doe not sinne of obstinacy , but of ignorance , having not been convinced ( and many of them never having had means to be convinced ) of the corruptions that are amongst them , in respect of their constitution , and worship , and ministery , and so the covenant remaining among them , may prove them to be churches , when it cannot stand the papists in like stead , they being impenitent and obstinate : which we doe not speake to justifie the parishes altogether , as if there were not dangerous corruptions found in them , nay rather ( the lord be mercifull to the sinnes of his people ) wee may lament it with teares , that in respect of their members and ministery , in respect of their worship and walkings , in many of those assemblies there are found such apparent corruptions , as are justly grievous to a godly soule , that is enlightened to discerne them , and greatly displeasing to the lord , and indeed had need to be repented of betime , least otherwise the lord remove the candlesticke and unchurch them , rev. 2. 5. in a word , the corruptions remaining are just causes of repentance and humiliation : but yet in as much as the articles of religion , which they professe , containe such wholesome doctrine , that whosoever beleeveth and walketh according thereunto , in sinceritie , shall undoubtedly be saved , and in as much as the corruptions are not persisted in with obstinacy , therefore wee deny not but they have the truth of churches remaining . but this opinion of church-covenant , is holden by none but the brownists , or those of the separation , and therefore it is not to be received . this ground cannot be made good , that none but they of the separation are for church-covenant , for all the reformed churches generally , as was shewed before in answer to objection the tenth , are for it in their judgement & practise ; and shall all they be condemned for * brownists , or maintaining unlawfull separation from the church ? also master parker and doctor ames , men of our owne nation , famous for holinesse and learning , and moderation , both of them plead for church-covenant , and yet neither of them were brownists , but bare witnesse against that riged separation . for doctor ames , his judgement of church-covenant may be seene in his medulla , theol. lib. 1. cap. 32. § 14 , 15 , 17. fideles non constitunt ecclesiam particularem , quamvis simul forsan plures in eodem loco conveniant aut vivant , nisi speciali vinculo intersese conjunguntur , &c. that is , beleevers doe not make a particular church , though perhaps there be many of them that meete ▪ together , and live in the same place , unlesse they be joyned together by some speciall bond amongst themselves : for so one church would many times be dissolved into many , and many churches confounded into one . now this bond is a covenant , either expressed or implicite , whereby beleevers do binde themselves particularly to performe all such duties , both towards god and mutually to one another , as pertaine to the nature of a church , and their edification . and thereupon no man is rightly admitted into the church , but by confession of his faith , and stipulation , or promise of obedience . these words doe plainely and fully shew his judgement of church-covenant , to be the very same that is held and practised in new-england at this day . and that he was not for that severitie and regiditie of separation , may be cleared from sundry of his workes , wherein he plainly and fully beares witnesse against the same , and namely , in his fresh suite against ceremonies , pag. 207. and in his second manuduction , wherein he purposely and at large deales in this argument of separation . sure it is master canne in his booke , wherein he goes about to prove the necessitie of separation from the non-conformists principles , doth professedly and expressely oppose himselfe against doctor ames in the point of separation , which shewes how farre the good doctor was from favouring that way , when they most zealously therein doe count him to be a speciall opposite of theirs , as indeed he was . and for master parker , his judgement of church-covenant was heard before in part ; where he so much approveth the practise of the reformed churches in this point . and much more may be seene of his judgement herein , in the sixteenth chap. of the third booke of his polit. ecclesiastica . and yet in the same place , and likewise lib 1. cap. 13. 14. of the same treatise he plentifully and plainly shewes his dislike of the wayes of separation , as is also acknowledged in an admonition to the reader , prefixed before that booke , by i. r. suo , suorumque nomine . so that this assertion appeares to be untrue , wherein it is said , that none but brownists and separatists doe approve of church-covenant . as for the inference from this ground , that therefore church-covenant should not be received , because it is pleaded for and practised by the separatists . we answer , that this will not follow , unlesse it could be proved , that the separatists hold no truth ; or if they hold a truth wee must not hold it , that so it may appeare wee differ from them ; either of which , it were unreasonable to affirme . if the papists hold sundry articles of faith , as that there is a unitie of the divine essence , and trinitie of persons , that jesus christ is god and man , and that true messiah that was promised , and the onely saviour of the world , and many such like , must wee deny these things because they are holden by the papists ? this were as unreasonable as to condemne the doctrine of the resurrection , because it was maintained by the pharisees , act. 23. 8. and so we say of church-covenant , holden and practised by them of the separation ; as also many other truths are maintained by them : no reason that truth should be refused , because the separatists maintaine it . when doctor bancroft in a sermon at pauls-crosse , had avouched that the superioritie of bishops above other ministers , is by gods owne ordinance , and to make the contrary opinion odious , affirmed that aerius persisting in it , was condemned for an heretique by the generall consent of the whole church , and that martin and his companions , doe maintaine the same opinion of aerius ; what saith learned doctor reinolds hereunto , in a letter to sir francis knolls , who required him to shew his judgement herein : touching martin , saith he , if any man behave himselfe otherwise then in discretion and charitie he ought , let the blame be laid where the fault is , and defend him not ; but if by the way he utter a truth , mingled with whatsoever else , it is not reason that that which is of god should be condemned for that which is of man : no more then the doctrine of the resurrection should be reproved , because it was maintained and held by the pharisees : wherefore removing the odious name of martin from that which is sinceritie and love , is to be dealt with , &c. and the very same doe wee say to them that would make church-covenant to be odious , because it is held by those of the seperation , who are commonly called brownists : if men behave themselves otherwise then they ought , we defend them not therein , but if they hold any truth mingled with whatsoever else , wee would not have that which is of god to be condemned , for that which is of man : truth should not be refused , because of other corruptions that may be found in them that hold it . if you with them hold church-covenant , you iustifie them in all their wayes of seperation and erronious opinions . not so , for many of them hold that there are no visible christians that stand members of the parishes in england , and that it is not lawfull to hold any private religious communion with such persons ; and that the parishionall assemblies are none of them true churches , and that it is not lawfull to hear any of those ministers to preach the word , none of which are justified at all by holding church-covenant , though they do hold the same ; there is no such necessarie and inseparable connexion betweene these opinions , and that of church-covenant , that he that holds this , must needs hold the other also . but the time hath been , when your selves did not hold church-covenant , as now you do ; when you were in england you were not of this mind , and therefore no marvell if your change since your coming to new england be suspected , and offensive . if you change your judgement and practise in this manner , god knows whether you may come at last , and therefore men may well be afraid of holding with you in this point , which your selves did not hold when you lived in your native countrey . some of us when we were in england , through the mercie of god , did see the necessitie of church-covenant ; and did also preach it to the people amongst whom we ministred , though neither so soone nor so fully as were meete , for which we have cause to be humbled , and to judge our selves before the lord. but suppose we had never knowne nor practised the same before our coming into this countrey , yet if it be a truth of god , there is no reason why we should shut our eyes against the light , when god holds it forth unto us , nor that others should be offended at us for receiving the same . for by the same reason men might still continue in their sinnes , and not make any progresse in knowledge and holinesse , that so they may not seeme unconstant , which were contrary to the scripture , wherein we are commanded nor to fashion our selves according to the former lusts of our ignorance . 1. pet. 1. 14. but to be changed , rom. 12. 2. and renued , ephes . 4. 23. and put off the old man , and put on the new , ephes . 4. yea to grow in grace and holinesse , 2. pet. 3. 18. and be stronger and stronger , job 17. 9. that our good workes may be more at the last , then at the first , revel . 2. 19. sure it is , the apostle tells the corinthians and ephesians , that the time had been when they were not the same men that now they are when he wrote unto them ; and yet he doth not blame them for leaving their former opinions or practise , but commends them for it , 1. cor. 6. 11. ephes . 2. 3. &c. and it is said of apollos an eloquent man , and mighty in the scripture , that when he came to ephesus the way of god was expounded unto him more perfectly by aquila and priscilla , whereas before he was instructed in the way of the lord , knowing onely the baptisme of john : yet this was no dispraise at all to him , that now upon better information he would change his judgement to the better , nor unto them that were the means thereof : act. 18. 25 , 26. nullus pudor est ad maliura transire . the time hath been , ( and we may be humbled for it ) when we lived without god in the world , and some of us in many sinfull courses : and shall any be offended , because we are not still the same ? and when god called us from the wayes of sin and death , to the fellowship of his grace in christ ; yet some of us lived a long time in conformity to the ceremonies imposed in our native countrey , and saw not the evill of them . but when god did open our eyes , and let us see the unlawfulnesse thereof , we cannot see but it would have been a with-holding the truth in unrighteousnesse , and a great unthankfulnesse to god for light revealed to us , if we should still have continued in that course through an inordinate desire of seeming constant : and therefore it is not any just cause of offence that we have changed our judgement and practise in those things , when we once perceived the word of god to disallow them . indeed it hath been sometime objected against mr. cartwright , and others , that desired the reformation of the churches in england , in regard of discipline and church-order , that they which stood so much for reformation in discipline , did in after times adde and alter some things , beyond what they saw at first , and what themselves had formerly desited ; and that therefore being so murable , and inconstant in their apprehensions , they were not to be regarded , nor hearkened unto : to which objection mr. pa●k●r makes full answer in eccles . lib. 2. ca. 36. p. 307 ▪ where he sheweth from the scripture , and the testimonie of bishop jewel , doctor reinolds , and others , that in the reformation of religion god brings not his servants into perfection in knowledge and zeale at the first , but by degrees , so as they grow and make progresse in these things in such wise , that their good works are more at the last then at the first , as was said of the church of thyatira , even as the man that had been blind , when christ ●● stored him to his sight , could at the first but see men like tr●… walking , and afterward saw every man cleerly ; and therefore●… is no good arguing to say these men have altered and correc●… such things from what their apprehensions were at first , and therefore they are not to be regarded . now if this be no good arguing against mr. cartwright , and those that in england have been studious of reformation ( as indeed it is not ) then it is no good argument against us in this m●●ter of church-covenant , to say we now hold and practise otherwise then we have done in former time . if any shall here reply , that change from conformity to the cerem●nies to worship god more purely is warranted by the word , and therefore not blame-worthy , and that the same may be said of the case of apollos , of the corinthians , and ephesians forementioned , and of cartwright , and the rest in his times . we answer , that this is true , and thereby it appears , that it is not simply the changing a mans opinion or practise that can be counted blame-worthy , or offensive , but changing without warrant of the word ; and therefore in point of church-covenant , the iss●● must not be whether we or others have formerly known and practised it , but whether it have ground from gods word ; for if it have ( as we hope have been proved before in this discourse ) then the observing of it , can be no cause of just offence unto others , not imputation of inconstancy to our selves , though in time past we had not had so much light as to discerne the necessitie and use thereof . the good lord pardon every one that prepareth his heart to seek god , though he be not cleansed according to the purification of the sanctuary : and grant unto all his churches and servants ▪ that their love may abound yet more and more in knowledge , and in all judgement , that they may discerne the things that differ ▪ and approve the things that are excellent , and by his spirit of truth be led forward into all truth , till antichrist be utterly consumed with the breath of his mouth , and the brightnesse of his coming , and the holy city new jerusalem come down from god out of heaven , as a bride adorned for her husband the lambe , the lord jesus , to whom be all glory of affiance and service for ever . amen . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a88943-e340 to. 2. to : 3. to : 4. object . answ . to 5. & 6. to 7. to 8. to 9. to 10. to 11. obj : answ : to 12. to 13. to 14. to 15. to 16. to 17. to 18. to 19 to 20. to 21. t● 22. to 23. to 24. & 25. to 26. to 27. to 28. to 29. to 30. to 31. to 32. notes for div a88943-e10270 object . 1 answer . object . 2 answer . object . 3 answer . object . 4 answer . argu. 2. object . 1. answer . obj. 2. answ . obj. 3. answer . argu. 3. argu. 4. argu. 5. object . answer . argu. 1. argu. 2. object . answer . argu. 3. object . 1. answer . obj. 2. answ . obj. 3. answer . object . 4. answ . object . 5. answ . argu. 4. argu. 5. object . answer . argu. 6. object . 1. answer . object . 2. answ . obj. 3. answ . obj. 4. answ . obj. 5. answ . obj. 6. answ . reply . answ . obj. 7. answ . obj. 8. answ . obj. 9. answ . obj. 10. answ . obj 11. ans● . obj. 12. answ . * by brownists and separatists you are to understād those of the riged separation . reply . answ . obje . 13. answ . reply . answ . an answer to dr. stillingfleet's irenicum by a learned pen. rule, gilbert, 1629?-1701. 1680 approx. 365 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 89 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a57854) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 57560) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1513:8) an answer to dr. stillingfleet's irenicum by a learned pen. rule, gilbert, 1629?-1701. [8], 162 p. printed for richard janeway ..., london : 1680. pages 151-152 lacking. best copy available for photographing. reproduction of original in the union theological seminary library, new york. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng stillingfleet, edward, 1635-1699. -irenicum. church polity. church and state. 2004-05 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2006-01 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2006-03 jonathan blaney sampled and proofread 2006-03 jonathan blaney text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-04 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion answer to dr. stillingfleet's irenicum : by a learned pen. sed hoc quidem affirmare non vereor , quod heu nimium tristis experientia jampridem docuit , sensim inter eodem & pari munere sacro fungentes , ordinem divinum , in gradum humanum , & hunc gradum , ruptis verorum purorum canonum vinculis , in tyrannidem manifestam , & , si restitutam ecclesiam malumus , abolendam evasisse . theod. bezae resp. sarav . de ministr . evang. grad . cap. 15. à calce . london , printed for richard janeway in queens-head ▪ alley in pater-noster row. 1680. to the reader . the world may know , that this treatise , however little in bulk , and as little in it's own eyes , yet presumes not to walk abroad , after so long confinement , without the perusal and approbation of several very learned and judicious men , as skilfull in the controversies of church-government as most of their age. if any demand why a posthumous piece shall need to be anonymous too ? it s answered , that though the worthy and much lamented author hath been a dead man ever since 1662. yet there may be reasons which concern the living why it should be so . if another ask , why the lists are entered so late , after 20 years silence ? ans. better late than never . and as diogenes said of dineing , a rich man when he will , and a poor man when he may ; so say i of printing . the hebrew servant who refused his liberty in that year of jubilee , when he might have had it , was to be a slave for ever . but the greatest question is yet behind , and it is about the seasonableness of this work. wherefore , if any shall say with paul to the priest , withdraw thine hand : this is not a time to plead for a jus divinum of church-government , when the church it self , is like to be swallowed up of popery ; even the holy city trod under foot of the gentiles ; and our common enemy be glad to see protestant against protestant ( that they may divide the spoil ) and so great a champion of the protestant cause assailed . to this several things must be said : 1. as some may write for their way , when they will , ( as i have said ) why should others neglect the year of release , which falls out but once in an age ? 2. but if you would know why we venture on offending episcopacy , by asserting the principles of presbytery , when popery so pretends to be the ascendant . truly , there 's but little reason to stick at this ; partly because the reformed churches generally look on prelacy as a limb of popery ; and partly to the grief of our hearts we see many of those men fallen in so kindly with that interest , that it causeth great thoughts in heart : i mean , not so much by the popish doctrines that many of them vent , as by a more general palliating of the late hellish , popish plot , to murther our king , and introduce the romish religion into these nations . there being no person more ingrateful to some of them than dr. oates , the first and great discoverer of the plot ; no discourse more unsavoury to them than the discovery it self , and no parliament so dreaded by them as one likeliest to prosecute the discovery of the plot , and punish the papists . and let the world judg whether we have cause to be tender in offending such protestants in this controversie , who had rather the plot should be stifled and the papists go unpunished , than poor dissenting protestants should have any favour shewed them . now the good lord forgive these men , and turn their hearts from hating of their brethren to love the truth . 4. as for dr. stillingfleet ( whom this author deals with about church-government ) i am far from placing him , dr. tillotson , and several of his worthy brethren in that category , they have done so worthily in our israel ; especially , himself hath writ so learnedly against the papists , that he deserves well of all good protestants . but yet , seeing the learned dr. seems to have repented of his writing against the jus divinum of episcopacy ( having since his irenicum , much applauded and congratulated the happy restitution of the church of england to its wonted lustre and grandeur ( far enough from his formerly desired reduction to primitive presbyteries : ) i know not but he may find as good reason here , for his repenting to write against the jus divinum of presbyterie . for the end of his epistle to the irenicum , about this matter , may be recanted , but never reconciled to the beginning of his epistle to arch-bishop laud's defence against fisher. what pity so grave and great a man should thus expose himself by a contest too palpable between principle and preferment . now though this hath the last word , and carries it with the world ; yet the elder brother will be accounted the honester with the wise , because born of the free-woman , while the after-seed was conceived and brought forth in bondage . 5. it may be judged a fit season of asserting the kingly power of christ in setling the government of his own house , when men so liberally give away the lord's prerogative ; not a coal of the altar , almost , which they are not willing to carry to the eagles nest . pray god they fire it not . our pulpits now so ring with a catholick jus civile , that there is scarce any jus divinum left , but of tythes , which i hope they will hold to the last , being good church-men . those prodigal sons of the church , are like to prove the profusest spenders of her patrimony , that ever she brought forth : and , which is worst of all , they are like to promote a divorce from her husband , by cutting her off from subjection unto , and communication with the true head. a fair charter hath christ sealed to his church with his own blood , giving her officers , ordinances , and free courts within her self ; all which unfaithful children , with profane esau often sell for morsels of meat , and by base compoundings alienate the churches good 's from her self ( the greatest of sacrileges ) and put them into the hands of strange children , to the unspeakable detriment of religion , and disgrace of christianity . now could men let christ alone , to govern his own house in his own way , by his own officers and ordinances ; how happy were we ! who can better reprove the atheism of the world in setting up mans post by christ's , than dr. stillingfleet hath done in his other works , while he sayeth that to say a man may be of any religion , according to the laws of men , is to take it for granted , that there is no such thing as religion in the world. and again , that no men do so dangerously undermine the foundations of civil government , as those who magnifie it to the contempt of religion . fear , i. e. religion , and particularly worship and the ordinances of christs house must not be taught more by the precepts of men , than by the truths of god. nor may polititians and court-parasites dare to form a religion in the flexible mould of state. a municipal religion would many fain promote , following reasons of state more than rules of conscience , like the heathens , who first built cities , and then instituted a religion fit for the inhabitants . the roman empire flourished while virtue was nourished , to shew , says austin , how happy they should be , who should have religion superadded . and indeed they had no better subjects than christians : for none can give unto caesar the things that are caesar's , upon any valuable or holding account , who make no conscience of giving unto god the things that are god's . now this innocent and learned book can hardly offend any , that are not adiaphorists on erastians : pleading in thesi the faithfulness of christ in setling a form of church-government in his fathers house , which he is set over : and the hypothesis of presbyterie , or a parity of governours , is not so much asserted positively ( further than the dr's concessions give ground to build on ) as arguments are answered , being brought against its divine right . so that the design is meerly to set it as right as it was before the dr. imployed his ordinance against presbyterie and episcopacy as to divine right , with equal force . and how the learned , and unprejudiced , ( if it fall into such hands ) shall find this defence managed , judicium sit penes lectorem . sed frustra ferit aures orator , si cor non reserat creator , says great calvin like himself . if men could come with a prepared mind to read books , i. e. with some sense of their own blindness at best , looking to god for more light , supposing that clear scripture and strong reason may be brought against some things they hold , there were some hope of getting good , and truth 's taking place . how may the most high , after all the antichristian encroachments on the scepter of his son , bring back the hearts of this people to himself , making them yield to the internal government of his spirit , and the true , apostolick , and ancient external government of his house : that the glory of the latter house may be greater than the glory of the former , even a spiritual glory of the powerful presence of the lord may appear among us ; and the pleasure of the lord may prosper by his own ordinances in the hands of his own appointed servants as the beauty of his house , and the blessing of his chosen . amen . even so lord jesus , let thy kingdom come ! feb. 20. 1679 / 80. animadversions on dr. stillingfleet's irenicum , &c. chap. i. this book , though set off with the specious title of an irenicum , and carrying in its face the pretence of a laudable design , viz. the healing of the dangerous wounds and sad divisions of the church at this time prevailing , will , upon due examination , i suppose , be found an unsuitable salve for these sores , and to mend our rents , as they say tinkers do , by making a greater rent instead of mending a lesser . for instead of a debate about particular forms of government , it bringeth in another debate , whether there be any form instituted of christ , whether we must search the will of christ about managing church-affaires in his word , or be content with what is the will of man ? which controversie is like to be harder in determining , and more stiffly agitated than the other ; for sure it is harder to perswade them , who would take the word of god for their rule , that christ hath not appointed any one form of government in his house , than that he hath not appointed this or that . by this device we are cast loose of all hold where we may fix , and there shall be no end of contention , at least among them , who consult so as to determine some one form of all these , which are thought to be lawful ; and when they have determined , the people , on whom they impose it , have a very unsure bottom to settle their consciences upon in this matter , that doth so nearly concern religion , to wit , nothing but the judgment and will of man , which is often wrong , and led by interest , and at best is fallible and cannot guide us certainly in that , which pleaseth god. wherefore this authors opinion seems to be a cutting of the knot with alexander , and casting all loose , when he cannot so untie it , as to hold fast the exercise of christ's kingly power in governing his church . neither is this opinion new , as the author seemeth to imply ; for it was long since maintained , and largely propugned by mr. hooker in his ecclesiastical polity , and solidly refuted by mr. rutherford in his divine right of church-government ; and indeed hath always been and still is the main pillar to uphold episcopacy in these nations , it being the most ready and plausible way for them , who would wreath this iron yoke on the necks of their brethren , when they cannot shew them christ's authority for it , to take the determining of the case out of his hand , and to put it in the hand of the king , and then to press it from his authority with fire and sword. and indeed this opinion is a most colourable excuse for the unfaithful complyance of them , who would fain hold their places under any form of church-government , that shall lye uppermost ; for so they shall be sure never to cross authority , and not to cross the interest of their own back and belly ; and how much mischief this piece hath done this way , is too evident ; seeing men , that incline to comply , are satisfyed with shadows instead of substantial reason , to put off troublesome conscience . yet among them , who are conscientiously zealous for any one way of government , i suppose , the lot of this author will be that , which is ordinary to such unhappy peace-makers , as sell truth , or some part of it by an over-reach of condescendency , and that in gods matters , not their own , ( in which we must bargain as hard merchants do in worldly things , ) to redeem peace ; for i suppose men of all perswasions will be about his ears : for that which i am perswaded to be the truth of god in point of church-government , viz ▪ government by ministers acting in parity , and ruling elders met in congregational , classical , provincial and national presbyteries or assemblies ; it is more easily upheld against his undermining engines , than any of the other forms ; for the least of his book is levelled against it in particular and what he saith against it , i hope , will appear not to have great strength ; yea , i believe , that out of what he hath said , this truth may be strongly confirmed ; which i shall thus essay in a word . he acknowledgeth and stifly maintaineth , that christ hath given power , not only of teaching , but of ruling his church , to all and every one of his ministers ; and that he hath not given more power to one of them than another , nor made them subject or subordinate to one another . whence it clearly followeth that presbyterian government ( i mean the parity of ministers and their association ) is jure divino , ex confesso ; and that prelacy is an addition to it , made jure humano . and hence it followeth , that this addition is unlawful , except he can prove that christ hath given a power to men to make them unequal , whom he hath made equal ; to subject one to another of them , to whom christ hath given equal power ; to restrain , yea and take quite away the exercise of ruling power in some of them , to whom christ hath given it as much as to others ; and to enlarge that power in some , to whom christ hath given no more than to others . which i am sure he will never be able to do : yea further it 's confessed by him , that christ hath instituted the office of presbyters ; and that he hath not instituted the office of prelates , ruling over presbyters : wherefore he must either say , that the church hath power to institute new offices , which i hope he will not assert , and i am sure he cannot prove ; or that prelacy is unlawful . for , that a prelate is another officer than a presbyter , is undeniable , because the one is ruled by the other . now these of the same office cannot be ruled by or subordinate to one another ; as common sense and reason will teach . § . 2. but to come to the book it self . my design is not a full refutation , but some brief animadversions for private satisfaction , and mine own establishment in these truths , that he endeavoureth to shake : neither do i intend to meddle with the whole , but only to cull out these passages , that relate to presbyterian government , and any that might infer the unsetling of that or any part of it . § . 3. the first thing , that i meet with , to be disproved , is p. 2. where he asserteth a principle , that will not only shake our faith ( if it be received ) in the point of church-government ; but ( which i hope he doth not intend ) will unsettle us in most points of christian religion . his principle is this , that difference in opinion about a point , and probable arguments brought on both hands by wise and able men ; if it be not a matter of necessity to salvation , gives men ground to think , that a final decision of the matter in controversie was never intended as a necessary means for the peace and vnity of the church of god. his opinion in this he setteth down in fewer and clearer words in the contents of ch . 1. things , saith he , necessary for the churches peace must be clearly revealed ; the form of church government is not so , as appears by the remaining controversie about it . i shall first shew the danger and falsehood of this principle , and then try the strength of what he saith for the establishment of it . and 1. i argue thus : this assertion destroyeth it self ; for if no point , not necessary to salvation , be so sure , that we must necessarily hold it , in order to peace ; then this his assertion falleth under the same condition , and needeth not to be maintain'd , for it is not needful to salvation ; i hope , they will go to heaven , that are not of his mind in this ; and i am confident he doth not think it so clear , that no wise and able men will controvert with him about it ; and if it be needless in order to the churches peace , why is it here laid down as the first stone of the foundation , on which he buildeth his irenicum ? but it fareth here with our author , as it doth with all other abetters of scepticism ; they attain at least so far their end , as they make men question that opinion , that they labour to establish , by perswading them to question every thing . § . 4. secondly , there is no cause at all , why the author should except from the uncertainty , here asserted , things , that are of necessity to salvation ; for , if we are to think , that the lord hath so clearly revealed things not needful to salvation , which are needful to peace in the church ; much rather are we to think so of things needful to salvation ( which also cannot but be necessary to peace ; for we can have no peace with them , that destroy the foundation . ) for it hath hitherto been a received principle , that things of necessity to salvation are revealed with more clearness , than other things . and , though papists have laboured to cast a mist upon scripture discovery in both sorts of things , that they might take all power to themselves over the truths of god , and consciences of men , in determining what is truth ; ( as dr. stillingfleet would darken the discovery of the circa-fundamentals of religion , that he might put the power of determining these things in the hand of the magistrate ) yet protestants have ever firmely maintained , that however the scripture speaketh darkly in some things , not essential ; yet that the light of it is most clear in things necessary to salvation . they are not then of this mans mind , who will have the things , that do not so nearly relate to salvation , but are needful to peace , so clearly revealed , that there can remain no controversie about them among wise and able men , but excepteth from this necessity , things of necessity to salvation . from what hath been said , i argue thus against dr. stillingfleet's principle : if any things not necessary to salvation be so necessary to be clearly revealed , that we are to look upon them as not christ's truth , if there remain a controversie about them , managed with specious arguments on both sides among wise and able men , much more things necessary to salvation must be thus clearly revealed ; so that there is no truth in them , if they be so controverted ; but the consequent is most false and absurd , and overturneth all the foundations of our religion : for have not the arrian , soecinian , arminian , and popish controversies been managed , yea and are they not managed by the adversaries of truth , with learning even to admiration . we must then , according to this principle , not take either part of these debates for truth , but think that the lord hath determined nothing in them , and we must leave it to men to determine in them what they please , and must embrace that . is not this a fine device to cast loose all , to bring in scepticism instead of faith , to make way for a subtle sophister to nullifie any truth , by disputing speciously against it ? yet this we are to bless the lord for , that the overturners of the government of christ's house , have no other means to cast it loose by , but these , that do also cast loose all our religion : which i hope will be a consideration to fix this truth the better in the minds of them , who are serious and intelligent . § . 5. thirdly , if these things not necessary to salvation , that speciously on both hands are controverted , be not needful to be determined in our consciences , in order to the churches peace , i ask the author of this assertion , what things of that nature are needful to the churches peace , that we hold an opinion about them ? or are there any things such ? or must we hesitate about all the circa-fundamentals in religion , and look on them as indifferences determinable by men , if we will not be guilty of disturbing the peace of the church ? i hope this good man will not say so : and yet it would necessarily follow out of this principle maintained by him ; for i believe he cannot instance in many things ( scarce if any ) that are not of necessity to salvation , which are not controverted , and that with specious pretexts . for learned men , when they erre , use not to come off so bluntly , as barely to say , it is so , or i think so ; but they bring plausible reasons , and those often pretended to be drawn from scripture , for their foulest errours . if then we receive this principle , we must not think it needful to the churches peace , to determine whether there be two sacraments or seven ; whether there be purgatory ; whether we are to pray to saints departed ; whether there be power of censure in church-men ; or if all church-power be in the magistrate ; whether the pope be the head of the church ; &c. for all these , and such-like , are controverted ; and there are colourable arguments for the errours , that men maintain in these points . if this , our author will not assert , what reason is there , that he should maintain , that the form of church-government is not determined by men for the churches peace ; and that because there are controversies about what is the form appointed by christ. § . 6. but i come now to examine what the author hath to say for this assertion of his . we cannot , saith he , with any shew of reason imagine , that christ , who hath made it a necessary duty for all the members of the church to endeavour the peace and vnity of it , should suspend the performance of that duty upon a matter of opinion , which when many have used their utmost endeavour to satisfie themselves about , they yet find , that those very grounds , which they are most inclinable to build their judgments upon , are either wholly rejected by others as wise and able as themselves , or else , it may be , they erect a far different fabrick upon the very same foundations . ans. 1. the weakness , if not wickedness of this argument will easily appear , by making an assumption to the proposition here set down , and considering what will necessarily follow , which i shall thus perform . that christ is true god , is a matter of opinion , which , when we have used our utmost endeavours to satisfie our selves about it , we yet find that those very grounds , which we are most inclinable to build our judgments upon , are either wholly rejected by others , as wise and able as we , or else that they erect on them a far different fabrick ; for it 's well known that the socinians , who are men of wisdom and ability , though it be unsanctifyed ; and especially grotius ( the wonder of his age for learning ) though yet he profess the truth in this point : that , i say , they do wholly reject all the grounds , on which we do build our faith in this point ; and that on many of them they endeavour to erect a contrary fabrick . it doth then follow vi syllogisticâ ( supposing our author's proposition ) that we cannot with any shew of reason think that christ would have us suspend the performance of our duty in endeavouring the peace of the church on this , that christ is true god ; and so we must by this argument yield this truth as a matter determinable by men , rather than hold an opinion in it with the loss of peace in the church . i hope the author will not own this conclusion ; wherefore he ought not to own that his assertion , out of which it is clearly deducible . § . 7. ans. 2. there is very great reason for that , for which he denyeth all shew of reason ; for some matters of opinion of that condition , which he describeth , are the truths of god , as is clear from what hath been said ; but we are to suspend the endeavouring of the churches peace , rather than part with any truth of god , or then we should yield it upto men's determinations , as if it were none of his truths . ans. 3. when we are to judge of the validity of the grounds , on which we build our opinion about truth ▪ it is not the thoughts of men as wise and able as we , that must determine us ; for , we know , the wisest may mistake , when they , who are less wise , may hit the truth through the grace of god : but we must consider whether these grounds be the dictates of the spirit of god in his word : and if they be , we must not be shaken in mind by the contrary assertions of men , though never so wise , yea and holy too . i grant the opinions of such should make us search carefully ; but they must not hinder our assent to the truth of god. and this is a valid reason , why we are to suspend our endevours of peac on some matters of opinion , though contradicted by wise and able men . § . 8. he addeth , that it is not consistent with christs wisdom to leave the peace of his church at the mercy of men's private opinions ; which are most uncertain ; for it is not expected , that all men should be of the same mind . ans. 1. it is too great rashness to think that christ cannot be a wise governour of his church , unless he take courses for its setlement , that our wisdom thinketh meet . i hope christ may wisely govern his church and yet not leave it to men to determine , what shall be the form of it's government , which yet cannot be , if this reason prove that , which it is brought for . 2. we may easily grant the conclusion of this argument , without giving the least advantage to the assertion , which it is brought to prove . it is true , christ hath not left the peace of his church at the mercy of men's private opinions ; viz. so as that there can be no peace in the church , except all men agree in opinion about all things : for peace may be maintained among dissenting brethren , by harmony of affection , mutual forbearance , and a prudent managing and concealing of our opinion , so far , as it may be without sin : and all this may be done without denying that , which we differ about , to be determined by christ ; and asserting it to be a thing left indifferent . and if this be not particable , either through the nature of the truth , that we dissent about ; in that it is practical , or so important that it cannot be concealed ; or through the obstinacy , or wrong zeal of dissenters ; the lord hath not left his church without a remedy even in this case , viz. they who do unreasonably dissent must be censured , or shunned : and if this cannot be done without breach of peace , it is our lords wisdom to provide , that we should rather loose peace then truth . 3. all that is here said will as well prove , that there is no fixed trnth in any controverted point , though of never so great concernment : for it may be said also in these , that christ hath not left the peace of his church at the mercy of men's private opinions , which are not the same in the most fundamental points . but of this enough . § . 9. from what hath been said , we may see what fit advice this healer giveth , while he thus saith , p. 3. the only way left for the churche's setlement and peace , under such variety of apprehensions , concerning the means and method in order to it , is to pitch upon such a foundation , if possible to be found out , whereon the different parties , retaining their private apprehensions , may yet be agreed to carry on the same work in common , in order to the peace and tranquillity of the church of god. hitherto we consent with him , and wish he would help us to such a foundation , so as it self be founded on the word of god and not contrary to it . but he goeth on . which , saith he , cannot be by leaving all absolutely to follow their own ways ; for that were to build a babel instead of salem . this also we grant : but that which follows we cannot agree to . it must be then , saith he , by convincing men , that neither of these ways to peace and order , which they contend about is necessary by way of divine command ( though some be as a means to an end ) but which particular way or form it must be , is wholly left to the prudence of those , in whose power and trust it is to see the peace of the church secured on lasting foundations . if this be a fit way of healing church-rents , then those churches are in the best way to peace , who cast away the bible , and will not look there what god hath commanded : because some may say , he hath commanded this , and others , he hath commanded that : and so refer all controversies to be determined by men , as supposing nothing to be determined by god. and indeed this is the basis that the peace of the popish church standeth upon : and i believe no jesuit would have given another advice , than this , toward the setling of our divided condition . what ? must we say that neither way is commanded of god , whether it be so or not ? when we can prove from scripture that this is christ's institution , that not , but a device aud usurpation of men ; must we yield this our ground ? and leave the whole matter to men's wills , as being the readiest way to peace . if this be his cure for church-divisions , i believe they , who take the word of god for their rule , especially in church-matters , will think it worse than the disease . every way to peace is not a good way , otherwise there were no duty at any time to contend for the truth , once delivered to the saints , jude 3. § . 10. i do not dissent from the learned author in his determinations about the nature of right and divine right , but must examine some of the principles , from which he will have a divine right to be inferred . wherefore as to the rest of the first chapter , i first take notice , that what he largely discourseth from p. 6. to p. 11. concerning the lawfulness of that , which is not forbidden by god ; however it may be granted sano sensu ( on which i now insist not ; ) yet it doth not reach his point , unless he prove that christ hath determined no species of government ; for if he hath determined one , then all other inconsistent with it are eo ipso prohibited : wherefore , though we grant to him , that ratio regiminis ecclesiastici is juris naturalis ; yet we cannot grant , except he proves it , that the modus of it is juris divini permissivi ; that is to say , it is juris humani ; but we assert it to be juris divini , partim naturalis , partim positivi , viz. in respect of the divers parts , of which that form is made up , which are approved of god. § . 11. to make up an obligation , whereby we are bound to a thing as duty , we assert with him , that there is required legislation and promulgation of it . but what he saith of the way of promulgation of divine positive laws , that is necessary to lay an obligation on us , i cannot fully agree to . p. 12. he asserteth that whatsoever binds christians as an universal standing law , must be clearly revealed as such , and laid down in scripture in such evident terms , as all who have their senses exercised therein , may discern it to have been the will of christ , that it should perpetually oblige all believers to the worlds end ; as is clear in the case of baptism and the lords supper . but because the learned author could not but see , how obvious it was to every one to argue against this assertion from the instances of the change of the sabbath , and infant baptism , which he acknowledgeth to be christs will and law established , and yet not thus revealed ; therefore he laboureth to obviate that argument by this exception ; ( to wit ) that there is not the same necessity for a particular and clear revelation in the alteration of a law unrepealed in some circumstances of it , as there is for the establishing of a new law : the former ( saith he ) may be done by a different practice of persons infallibly guided ; as in the case of the change of the sabbath and infant baptism ; not so the latter . to this i reply a few things . 1. it had been good , if , in an assertion so fundamental to his whole discourse , and so positive for the clearness of divine laws , he himself had used more clearness ; there is no small muddiness and ambiguity in his expressions , which i must a little remove . and first , when he saith , that christs laws must be revealed clearly as such ; either he meaneth ( as hooker , eccles. polit . defending this opinion of our author's , expresseth it ) that they must be set down in the form of laws . but it is too great presumption to prescribe to him , how he should word the intimations of his will to his people ; or in what mode or form he should speak to them : his will manifested to us is that which obligeth us ; and this may be without such a form. or he meaneth , that christs laws must be so clearly revealed , as that we may come to know , that this we are to do , and that to forbear , and that he would have us to take notice of it as his will ; and this we agree to , and do maintain , that the form of church-government is thus revealed . another ambiguity is , that he requireth them to be laid down in such evident terms as all who have their senses exercised therein , may discern them to be his will to oblige us . if he mean that they , who have competent understanding and means , and do seriously search the truth in these things ( which , i suppose , is the meaning of having their senses exercised in them ) may for the objective evidence of the things come to know them ; this we do not deny ; if he mean , that such will certainly be convinced of them , and that there can be no impediment insuperable by them , neither in the object , nor in their blindness or prejudice , or other infirmity or disadvantage that they lye under , which may make them , that they cannot see that to be the will of christ , which is so revealed ; this we utterly deny . now this latter , not the former , must be his meaning , because it is nothing to the purpose , which i will not impute to so learned a man ; for what is not so revealed , is not revealed at all , seeing it is unintelligible by defect of objective light ; now , to say that christ's laws must be thus revealed , is to say that they must be promulgated , some way or other ; which was never questioned by any ; and maketh nothing for his design , viz. that christs laws must be so revealed , as that the disputes about them shall be taken away . yea , he cannot mean this , for the change of any circumstance of an old law must at least be thus revealed , else it is not revealed at all ; and yet he requireth another sort of revelation of new laws , as appeareth from what hath been said . § . 12. 2. if this assertion thus explained were true , there should remain no more controversie among serious and learned men about any of the laws of christ ; for such have their senses exercised in these things : wherefore they may ( if we believe this author ) know such to be christs laws , and therefore cannot be in an errour about them . but how absurd this is , sad experience maketh too evident : is it not a controversie whether christ hath appointed seven or but two sacramentst ? whether he hath commanded us to pray to saints departed ? whether excommunication be by his law , &c. we must then either say , that christ hath made no law in these things ; or that men cannot mistake in them ; but that they who oppose the truth herein , do oppose that which they know to be christ's law , or that christ hath made and revealed a law about these things , but these men cannot see it , which is contrary to the author's assertion . 3. is it not enough to bind the conscience of any , who soberly seek to know what is the good , and perfect , and acceptable will of god , that the lord in his word hath given some intimation , from which we may gather , that such a thing is his will : sure , seeing it is his will , that bindeth the conscience , whatever way we come to the knowledge of this will , we are obliged by it to our duty . now we may be able , in some cases , to deduce from scripture such a thing to be the will of god , though it be not set down in such evident terms as are here mentioned , as is clear to any who do consider . 4. there are many points of truth , or many credenda , in the scripture , which want such an evidence of revelation , as is here required ; which yet we are to believe as the truths of god ; for it is clear , that the lord hath taught us many things in the bible , as it were on the bye , and left them to be gathered from scripture assertions : yea many times truths are couched in duties commanded , as commands also are comprehended in assertions and promises . now if this clearness of terms in the revelation of the credenda of religion be not necessary to bind the conscience to believe , how is it imaginable , that it should be necessary in the revelation of the agenda , to bind the will to act ? seeing the lord doth as peremptorily require us to believe what he hath said , as to do what he hath commanded . 5. for the exception that he maketh of the changing some circumstances of old laws ; i see not on what foundation of reason , the difference between these and new laws can stand ; but that this shift serveth his purpose : for ( to take his own instance ) supposing a standing law for a sabbath , and that the seventh day must be kept : this circumstance ( as he is pleas'd to call it ) that not the seventh , but the first day be kept , is really a new law : yea there are here two new laws ; one abrogating what was before , and making it no duty to keep the seventh day : another establishing a new , which was not before , and making it a duty to keep the first day . now if this may be thought no obliging law of christ without that evidence of revelation , which he talks of , why may not another thing , that was not such before ? if we are to look to apostolick practice as ground sufficient why we should think it christs will , that we should keep the first day of the week to the lord ; which was not done before ; why should we not think the same ground sufficient , why ministers should rule the church by a parity of authority ? yea , reason would say , that there is need of more clearness , in the revelation of christ's will for altering a standing law in such of it's circumstances as doth annul one duty , and establish another , than for setling that as duty which is altogether new , seeing in the former , we must both know the will of god in abrogating and establishing : in the later we are to know only , that he will stablish such a thing . § . 13. in his examination of what maketh an unalterable divine right , i agree to most that he teacheth ; only his postulatum p. 14. one which he buildeth all his assertions , needeth to be a little cleared . he asserteth that nothing can be founded on divine right , nor bind believers as a positive law , but what may be certainly known to have come from god , with an intention to bind believers to the worlds end . where i only take notice that , though plerophory in that case be very desirable ; yet such certainty is not necessary to our obligation : but so much knowledge of the will of god as may satisfie the conscience , by jnclining it to the one hand , and not leaving it absolutely in suspence . if this be not sufficient , we shall take off all obligation of gods positive laws from most men : for few have plerophorie in most things . i agree with him , that a divine right is built on the law of nature , and on the immutable positive laws of god : also , that these are three good marks of the immutability of divine positive laws , which he bringeth : viz. when the reason of the law remains : when god hath declared such a law never to be changed : when it conduceth to the being of a society , that he would have to continue . only i cannot see how these ( espeeially the former two marks ) do consist with the mutability of that church government , ( in these things we controvert about ) which the apostles practised ( no doubt , as being christs will and law ) seeing there is the same reason for parity now , that then was : and christ hath not said , that he will have it altered in after ages . § . 14. page 23. he comes to examine some pretences ( as he is pleased to call them ) for a divine right . and first , he laboureth to enervate the argument for the divine right of church-government , taken from apostolical practice : of which he promiseth to say more after : but what he here saith , we shall examine . i yield to him , that all scripture examples do not bind ; neither doth any example bind as an example : also , that the rule , whereby we know what examples do bind , is not immediately obligatory , but directive . i grant likewise that in such examples , that which bindeth us , is either the moral nature of the action , or the law commanding us to follow the example . and yet all these concessions yield him no advantage , neither bring our cause any loss : for when he requireth us , who plead for the divine right of a particular form of church-government from apostolical example , to shew either the morality of their actions ; or a law commanding us to follow them : i answer , as to the first , there needeth no particular demonstration of the morality of apostolick actions : but this we can say for them , the nature and condition of the actions , and the apostles doing of them , being considered ; reason will not suffer us to question the morality of them . i mean it is certain that they are the will of christ : for we must think that in matters not light and occasional , but weighty and of great concernment whether they be well or ill done ; and which were done on mature deliberation ; as the administration of the affairs of christ's house : in matters , i say , of this nature , we are to think that the apostles did that which was best and most approved of god ; they being infallibly guided by his spirit . now that , which was best to them , must certainly be best to us also , we managing the same affairs ; except some diversity of our case from theirs can be shewn : wherefore we are obliged to think that the parity of ministers in ruling the church , is christ's will , and so a moral duty ; ( not a thing indifferent ) seeing it was so in the apostolick churches ; as , i suppose , is proved by the maintainers of that way : and there is no reason why it should be otherwise with us than with them . for the second , we have also a law for following apostolical example ( as we have for following christ's example ; which , our author saith , maketh it our duty ) viz. 1 cor. 4. 16. wherefore i beseech you be ye followers of me . 1 cor. 11. 1. be ye followers of me , even as i am of christ. and lest any think that this command of imitation is only in reference to duties otherways known to be such , as faith , love , &c. it is evident that this last place relateth to church administrations ; for he prefixeth this exhortation to the doctrine of decency and purity in their worship . beside , that the exhortation being general , can suffer no exception , but where imitation would not have the same morality in us , that giving example had in them , viz. where the case is different . other scriptures to the same purpose are phil. 3. 17. heb. 6. 12. and this is commended ( which clearly supposeth a command ) 1 thes. 1. 6. and 2. 14. 2 thes. 3. 9. ja. 5. 10. wherefore , if we can shew apostolical practice for our way of church-government ( as i know we can ) it is incumbent on our adversaries to shew a reason why they did such things , which doth not agree to our case ; or else to submit to that way , as that which is christ's law . for the other grounds of divine right , that he examineth , we insist not on them , as not being necessary to the defence of that truth which we maintain . wherefore i wave what might be said against what he there disputeth . chap. ii. § . 1. in the second chapter of the first part of his irenicum he layeth some hypotheses for a foundation of his following discourse : where i shall pass over in silence , these things that have truth in them ; and these also , the examining of which is not needful to the present purpose , viz. defending presbyterial government to be juris divini . only , i take notice , that here , and through his whole book , he spendeth most of his pains and learning , in proving these points , which are either digressions from the present business , or are not denied by any of his opposites : which is magno conatu nihil agere . § . 2. in his fourth hypothesis , p. 38. some things need our remark : he setteth it down thus : in things which are determined both by the law of nature and divine positive laws , as to the substance and morality of them , but not determined as to all circumstances belonging to them , it is in the power of lawful authority in the church of god to determine them so far as they judge them tend to the promoting of the performance of them in due manner . two things in this hypothesis i condemn . 1. that he warranteth men to determine things undetermined in the church , so far as they judge needful : he should have said , so far as is needful : for if we hold this his assertion in terminis , superstitious men in lawful authority may bind us in all things where christ hath left us free ; so that it shall not be lawful to speak , look or act in the church , but as they think fit . and indeed here is a foundation for almost all the ceremonies that either popes or prelates ever burthened the church of god with : they are nothing but determinations of what is left undetermined ; and they judge them to tend to promote worship : as , it is not determined , what garment a minister shall wear , the church judgeth a surplice to tend to promote worship : then by this hypothesis , the church may determine this : which is not only against truth , as might easily be shewed , if that were now my work , but also against this author , who declareth himself against ceremonies of mens appointing . 2. that he extendeth this determining power so far , that not only things undetermined , and that must be determined , otherwise the ordinances cannot be gone about without defect or sin , may be determined by lawful authority ( for this we grant , and therefore do close with his example of appointing the place ▪ and hour for worship ) but also things that they judge tend to promote the due manner of the ordinances , may be thus determined ; which a little after he expoundeth of the decency and solemnity of worship . this we cannot assent to : for there is no pompous ceremony that ever man devised , but they judged it fit to promote the solemnity of worship . and indeed the scripture condemning the pompousness and gaudiness of worship , and commending the simplicity of it , saith plainly , that it is not left to men to add their determinations to god's , to make the worship as solemn as they judge meet ; but that we ought to be content with that solemnity , which is made in worship by god's institutions , and the needful determination of circumstances . neither can this blow to his hypothesis be evited , by saying , that he speaketh only of circumstances ; which we confess may be determined by the church . for 1. all ceremonies are also circumstances ; and he doth not here mention meer circumstances , to exclude ceremonies from the determing power of authority in the church . 2. though he should be understood of meer circumstances , viz. which are such before they be determined ; as the habit in which we are to worship : yet even such , when they are determined by men without necessity , only , that they may add to the worship a decency , which is not needful by nature , civil custom , nor divine institution , they become religious ceremonies ; their end being religious , and they being peculiar to religion : as i have shewn in another piece . § . 3. it seemeth to me very strange , and not to be passed over in our animadversions ; that in the prosecuting of this his hypothesis , wherein he had ascribed a determining power to lawful authority in the church ; he taketh notice of no power or authority seated in church-men ; but speaketh only of the magistrate : for p. 38. shewing why there is need to prove this hypothesis , he tells us of some that give no power , and some that give little power to the magistrate about religion : and then falleth upon a large debate of the magistrate's power in church-matters . which is an evident supposing , that all church-power is in the magistrate , and in none else : otherwise this discourse should be very impertinent to his hypothesis . but this supposition is a gross falshood , as is fully proved by many worthy men against erastus and his followers . i shall not now ingage in that large debate . if we should grant a determining power to any authority about the things in hand , it should not be to the civil magistrate ; but to the guides of the chnrch met in a lawful assembly . and it is not only contrary to truth , but a contradiction to what this author writeth elsewhere , in his appendix about excommunication ; where he taketh much pains to assert a power of discipline in the church-guides : and if so , certainly the magistrate is not the lawful authority in the church : for that implyeth church authority . i hope he will not say , that ministers have lawful authority in the state ; because they have no civil authority : why then should we say , or suppose , that the magistrate hath lawful authority in the church ; except he think that the magistrate hath church-authority ? against which he there disputeth ; especially seeing respublica non est in ecclesia , sed ecclesia in republica ; he that hath only civil power , hath no power in the church , whatever he hath about church-matters , and over church-men . § . 4. in asserting the magistrates power in these things , he professeth , that he will not so much make his way through any party , as strive to beget a right understanding among them that differ : how well he keepeth his promise may be seen , by examining what he saith ; on which i will not much insist , ( intending to meet with this his doctrine elsewhere ) but only mark what is amiss , with a short ground of our censure of it : for this debate is somewhat extrinsecal to the indifferency of church-government : it rather supposeth it , than asserteth or proveth it . in explicating his second distinction about the magistrate's power , p. 41. the internal , formal , elicitive power of order , saith he , lies in the authoritative exercise of the ministerial function , in preaching of the word , and administration of the sacraments ; but the external , objective , imperative power of jurisdiction lies in a due care and provision for the defence , protection , and propagation of religion . the former is only proper to the ministry , the later to the supream magistracy . here several things are to be noted . 1. that he maketh the power of order to be all one with internal , formal , elicitive power about church affairs ; and the power of jurisdiction the same with external , objective and imperative power about them . this is instead of distinguishing to confound things most different : for , i hope , he is not ignorant that all the assertors of church-power against the erastians , do distinguish church-power , or the keys of the kingdom of heaven ( for so is this power designed by christ ) in the power or key of order ; and the power or key of jurisdiction . let the author shew us one ( not erastian ) who before himself did ever make the power of order in the church to comprehend all formal and elicitive church-power . yea , he doth by this most evidently contradict himself ( which i wonder to meet with so often in such a learned man ) for in his appendix he maketh the power of discipline to be in the church ; and so to be formal , internal and elicitive church-power : and sure the power of discipline is the power of jurisdiction , not of order : not only because all that speak of this distinction do so understand it : but also our author doth here make the power of order to respect only the word and sacraments ; and so the power of discipline must belong to jurisdiction , according to him : now whereas he maketh the power of jurisdiction there to be internal only in the church : and here to be external in the magistrate only ; if this be not a contradiction , let any man judge . 2. another thing , that here i take notice of , is , that the power which he ascribeth to the ministry is only administration of the word and sacraments . then they have no power of discipline , for every one knoweth that that is some other thing than the word and sacraments . now this is contradictory to the whole of his own appendix : and also to scripture , which giveth to church-officers power of binding and loosing , mat. 18. 18. jo. 20. 23. and of ruling the lord's people , 1 thes. 5. 12. heb. 13. 17. but i insist not on this , it having been made evident by so many against the erastians . 3. he ascribed all power about church affairs to the magistrate , except that of administring the word and sacraments ; and so to the magistrate as it is only belonging to him : for he giveth him that which he called the power of jurisdiction , and that is to him all power but that of word and sacraments . now there was never any erastian that gave more to the magistrate than this : for by this means , he hath all the power of deciding controversies in synods ( for that is not preaching of the word ) of ordination , the exercise of discipline , &c. and none but he hath any share in it . behold unto what absurdities this man runneth unawares , while he maketh it his business to unhinge that government which christ hath setled in his church . and indeed i cannot but take notice of a necessary connexion between this putting all church-power in the hands of the magistrate , and denying it to be juris divini . for he knew well , that if it had been left to be decided by church-men among themselves ; it had not been easily determined amidst the interest of men clashing one with another ; the more conscientious and self-denied sort being ever the fewest . § . 5. page 42. speaking of the subordination or co-ordination of the magistracy and ministry , there be some mistakes worthy of our notice . though he acknowledgeth the person of the magistrate to be subject to the word of god , yet he denieth it to be subject to the power of the ministers . this is the doctrine of court-preachers , who love to flatter rather than speak truth . but consider . 1 it is to me an inconsistency , that ministers have power or authority of preaching the word ; and the magistrate's person is subject to this word , and yet he is not subject to the power of ministers . when they teach , rebuke , exhort with all authority and command in the name of the lord ; doth not this reach magistrates as well as others , if they be subject to the word of god ? i see not how they are subject to it , if they be not subject to it as declared by christ's embassadors , which is the ordinary way of dispensing it : and if so , then are they subject to the preaching power of ministers at least . 2. magistrates are also subject to the ruling power of ministers : for they rule over christ's flock ; the members of the church , of which number , if the magistrate be , i see no ground in scripture for exempting him from the power of their jurisdiction . when christ said , whosesoever sins ye remit , they are remitted , and whosesoever sins ye retain , they are retained ; he did not add , except the supream magistrates . may not , i pray , the pastors of the church debar him , if he be a flagitious man , from the lord's table , as ambrose did to theodosius ? and if they may , certainly the magistrate personally considered is subject to the ruling power of pastors in spiritual things ; as they are subject to him in civil things . and to deny this , what is it , but to make the supream magistrate head of the church and not a member of it ? much more worthy to be received is the opinion of crysostome , who speaketh thus to ecclesiastical persons , in reference to abstention from the lord's supper ; si dux igitur quispiam , si consul ipse , si , qui diademate ornatur , indigne adeat , cohibe ac coerce ; majorem ●u illo habes authoritatem . § . 6. he cometh afterward , p. 43. to ascribe to the magistrate not only a political power , which he maketh to lie in the execution and administration of laws for the common good : but also an architectonical and nomothetical power ( though not absolute and independent ) whereby he may make laws in things that belong to the church . his meaning in this he expresseth more fully in the end of p. 44. in matters , saith he , undetermined by the word of god concerning the external policy of the church of god , the magistrate hath the power of determining things , so they be agreeable to the word of god. and because he knew that the church-guides would put in for this power , that here he giveth to the magistrate , therefore , p. 45. he laboureth to reconcile these parties , by a distinction or two , viz. between declaring christ's laws , and making new laws : and between advising what is fit , and determining what shall be done . the declaring and advising power is given by him to the church ; the authoritative determining power to the magistrate . for p. 46. the great use , saith he , of synods and assemblies of pastors of the church is , to be as the council of the church unto the king ; as the parliament is for matters of civil government . and p. 47. but yet , saith he , when such men thus assembled have gravely and maturally advised and deliberated what is fittest to be done ; the force , strength , and obligation of the thing so determined doth depend on the power and authority of the civil magistrate . against this doctrine ( before i come to examine the reasons that he bringeth for it ) i have these things to say . 1. it must be noted ( by passing over which in silence our author hath confounded the matter ) that we are not here speaking of things that are properly civil , though belonging to the church , viz. as it is a society , and in the common-wealth ; such as church-rents , meeting-places , liberty of the use of them , &c. but of the government of the church , as it is a church , of its discipline ; which things are properly the external policy of that church , as our author termeth that which he speaketh of . now the question is , whether the power of determining these , be in the church-guides or the magistrate . 2. that which is the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and the ground of most of this author's mistakes , is , he supposeth that some things of this church-policy are so left undetermined by the word , that they are capable of a determination by men's legislative power , and that new laws may be made about them . this is not truth ; for , if we speak of the substantials of church-government , even of a particular form , it is determined in the word , and so not subject to men's nomothetical determinations ; if of the circumstances of it , neither are these left for men to make laws about them , but they are determined by the lord , in the general rules that are in the word , and the dictates of right reason compared with them ; and the obligation , that lyeth on our consciences in these things , is not from the magistrates law ( though we do not deny but he may add his sanction to both sorts of things , and make them the law of the nation , as dr. stillingsleet saith well , that he may with any thing in religion ) but from the will of god , which ought to be searched out , and held forth authoritatively by the guides of the church , that are acting in the name of christ. 3. it is false then that the magistrate hath power in determining what of the external policy of the church is undetermined in the word . for if we speak of that which is not determined at all , neither by particular praecepts , or examples , or otherwise , signifying particularly the mind of christ about such a thing , viz. by the general rules of the word compared with right reason , is not held forth to be the mind of christ ; such things ought not to be determined by any man or men , but are left to christian liberty ; for such things must be determined meerly by mans will , but the lord hath not left the matters of his church to that crooked rule . but if we speak of things not determined by particular praecepts , &c. yet in which the mind of christ is deducible by general rules : neither here hath the magistrate the determining power , but they , whom the lord hath made the guides and eyes of his church ; they must declare what is the will of christ , not impose what is their own will or law. and here the obligation is from the will of christ , not the authority of the church , nor the magistrate neither ; the declaration of it from them , whom christ hath made his embassadors . for what i have said , i give this brief reason , the affairs of the church are to be managed by a ministerial power , the farthest extent of which is to declare christ's laws , and apply them ; as is generally confessed by protestants against papists : but the magistrate's power is not ministerial , but magisterial : ergo , it is not his part to manage or determine the affairs of the church , of which doubtless her external policy is no small part , which may be further enforced thus ; church-determinations must be the declarations of the will of christ , but not the magistrate , but the pastors are the embassadors of christ , whose it is to decalre his will : ergo , it is not his , but their part to make such determinations . we speak not of the judgment of discretion , which the magistrate hath in these things , in order to the adding his sanction to them ; and that not only as others have , theirs being private , and his publick and with authority : bnt we speak of that determination of things , which is the ordinary means of promulgating to us the mind of christ in church-matters . 4. it is most false that the great use of synods is to be the king's church-council , as the parliament is his civil council ▪ for , 1. himself acknowledgeth another use of them , while he ascribeth to the church , a power of declaring christ's laws ; is not this of great use ? but contradictions are no rarity in this author . 2. hence it followeth , that as parliamentary acts have no force without the king's sanction , so likewise church-determinations have none without it ; and if the church excommunicate any person , it is not valid , nor his sins bound in heaven , till the king put his seal to it ; for that such a person be excommunicated , is not determined in scripture . 3. the council at jerusalem , act. 15. and all the councils before constantine's time , were of no great use ; for they had not this use , there being no magistrate to own them as his council . 4. this destroys that received axiom among all them , who are not the avowed followers of erastus , viz. that the magistrate's power is cumulative to the church , not privative ; for it maketh his to swallow it up , there being no authority , nor great use of synods , without the magistrate . 5. this taketh away from the church entireness of power in her self , in things that do concern her as such a society , and a capacity to subsist without the magistrate ; which i hope this author , when better advised , will not own . 5. it is also false , that when church-guides assembled , have deliberated and determined , the force , strength , and obligation of the things of determined , doth depend on the magistrate ; for it dependeth on the reason of them containing the will of christ , and not on the authority of men . § . 7. i come now to see what arguments he bringeth for what he hath asserted . 1. saith he , taking the church as incorporated into the civil state , though the object of these things , the matter of them , and persons determining them be ecclesiastical , yet the force and ground of the obligation of them is wholly civil . ans. that the church is in the republick we do not deny : yet that must not be so understood as if either these two were not distinct corporations , or the power of the one were subordinate to , or swallowed up the other . the saying of optat milev : ( which he citeth ) that ecclesia est in republica , non respublica in ecclesia ; will not bear that : but the meaning is , that either the church is in the rep. as the lesser society in the greater , as a few parishes are in a county ; so the primitive churches were in rome , corinth , &c. or when the church is aeque late patens with the nation , that the church is in protection of the civil state , not e contra ; seeing kings must be nursing fathers to her , and as it were keep house for her to be nursed in . or speaking of a national church , that it 's being a nation is prior in order of nature than it 's being a church ; because it might be a nation , and not a church ; but it cannot be a church and not a nation . now , none of these do infer that the obligation of determinations made by church men , about church affairs is civil ; but it may be and is ecclesiastical , viz. from the will of christ , which the church holdeth forth as his embassadors . wherefore this ratiocination is altogether inconsequent . but he cometh to authority , to see if that will help him . he citeth p. martyr . lo. com . clas : fig. 4. c. 5. s. 11. and in 1 sam. 8. nam quod ad potestatem ecclesiasticam attinet , satis est civilis magistratus : is enim curare debet ut omnes officium faciant . what he meaneth for citing both these places for these words , i know not , unless it be that they are to be found in them both . but i am sure neither they , nor any thing like them is in the former place ( for the later i have not that part of his works ) but the contrary of what this author intendeth , is there clearly and fully taught , viz. he is refuting them who would have the power of discipline in the church to cease , now when the magistrate is christian , and he asserteth ecclesiastical power and civil as distinct : and only says that the magistrate should correct ministers if they do not carry as they ought : but this is far from that , quod ad potestatem ecclesiae attinet , satis est civilis magistratus . he refers , for the judgment of the reformed divines in this to vedel . de episc. const. mag. et offic. magistratus , annexed to grot. de imper. sum . pot . circa sacra . but it is well known that vedelius was an erastian and ( as this author doth ) did fowly abuse the reformed divines making them speak what they never thought ; wherefore i refer to apol. triglandius , revius ; who have refuted that seducing pamphlet of vedelius . for the other author , let his citations be weighed , they will never prove that any of the reformers gave the power of determining church-affairs to the magistrate . he addeth three reasons of his allegation , yet they are but two , for the two former do coincide , and the strength of them is ; that it is from the authority of the magistrate , that obligation to obedience or penalty is ; or ( which is the same ) it is from him that the sanction , or annexing of penalties to the constitutions , is ; that it is from him only that the force of obligation is in matters determined by advice of the church and which do concern the church . ans. all this is easily taken away by a well known distinction in things that are commanded by christ , and by his church declared to be such ; and also , are ratified by the sanction of the magistrate , there is a twofold obligation : one spiritual ; this is from christ as law-giver ; and is laid on by the instrumental intervention of the church as his herald proclaiming his will : another civil , whereby we are bound to external punnishment if we contravene such a constitution ; this is from the magistrate : of this , not of the former the author's assertion is to be understood ; otherwise it is false : for that obligation is no way from the magistrate . his third reason is , the magistrate can null any obligation laid on by the church representative : as if they do prescribe some indifferent rites and ceremonies to be observed by all ; he forbidding them the former supposed obligation is null ; otherwise these absurdities would follow . 1. that there are two supream powers in a nation at once . 2. that a man lyeth under different obligations to the same thing . 3. the same action may be a duty and a sin , viz. being forbidden by the one power and commanded by the other . ans. 1. he supposeth ( which we will never yield to him ) that ceremonies may be indifferent and imposeable by men . nay , all the ceremonies of god's worship , being worship themselves , are christ's institution ; otherwise but will-worship : and so himself understandeth ceremonies p. 68. it is like forgetting what he here said . 2. it concerneth the author as much as it doth us to answer his own objection , for he ascribeth to the church an intrinsecal power of discipline : now suppose one be excommunicated ; the church commandeth it , the magistrate forbiddeth it ; if his prohibition doth not null the former obligation , the same absurdities follow , that are mentioned in his reason ; if it doth , then this doth as much destroy the power of discipline in that church , which he asserteth ; as it destroyeth the power of determining about other church-matters , which we assert . 3. we deny that the magistrate by his power can destroy the obligation to any church-act ( being otherwise warrantable ) laid on by the church , or rather by christ , the church declaring his will ( for so the church only commandeth ) otherwise we might as well say ( and it must needs be this man's opinion , if he believe what here he writeth ) that when the church ordaineth a minister and commandeth him to preach christ , the magistrate by forbidding him to speak any more in that name , maketh null the former obligation . 't is true the magistrate may , in some cases , restrain the outward exercise of what we are so obliged to , and also when he doth injuriously forbid such exercise , we may be , in some cases , obliged to cede to this violence : but neither of these destroyeth our obligation to our duty ; neither the power by which it is laid on ; more than the magistrate doth destroy my obligation to obey my father , or his power over me , when he putteth me in prison , and so i cannot do what my father commandeth . the absurdities that he would fright us with , do not follow from our opinion , but from his own false supposition . for the first , it is not absurd that there should be two supream powers about things so different that one power cannot have them both for it's formal object . will not the author grant that ministers have the supream preaching power , that is not subordinate to the magistrate : and the magistrate the supream civil power ? why not then , that they have the supream ruling power in church affairs ? these powers need not clash , though they be not subordinate , being about things so different as are this world and that which is to come , the soul and the body : but this man feareth that caesar be dethroned , if we confess christ to be a king ; and so would have christ's kingdome subordinate to caesar's . for the second , there cannot be two obligations here ; for if the church keep within her limits , her command is christ's . and so any contrary obligation must be null : if not , her authority layeth on no obligation . for the third , it is the same argument , and it admitteth of the same answer . § . 8. having made the magistrate the sole judge and determiner in the matters of the church even ceremonies themselves : our author proceedeth p. 49. to examine the extent of his power , asserted in his former hypothesis , and here he proceedeth by three steps . 1. that there are some things left undetermined by the word . this we assent to , as it is here set down ; but cannot understand it ( as he doth , which appeareth a little after ) of ceremonies : but rather of bare circumstances of the worship of god ( if he take these for one , he is very ignorant of the nature of both ) neither of the species of church-government , for which this indifferency of things is here asserted . what he discourseth here of the nature of indifferency , i shall not insist upon , intending to meet with it elsewhere . only i take notice of his concession p 53. that in things wholly indifferent both in respect of their common nature and their use and end ; that are neither commanded nor tend to the peace and order of the church , there can be no reason why the nature of these things should be altered by humane laws : wherefore matters that are indifferent as to a command , but are much conducing to the peace and order of the church are the proper matter of humane constitutions concerning the churches policy . let it be here considered that these things are not properly indifferent , but commanded , viz. where the peace and order of the church is injoyned : and if it be so , it is the part of the church representative , not of the magistrate , to judge what things are thus conducible to peace and order ; and to hold forth the doing of these , as the laws of christ. § . 9. his second step is , that matters of this nature may be determined and restrained ; and that it is not to the wronging of christians liberty , so to do : and this he doth very largely prove against some as he pretendeth of great note and learning ; i wonder who they are : for i never met with any who do deny what he asserteth : it is true that many do , and that warrantably , maintain ; that where christ hath left us free , man hath no power by his meer will to restrain us ; especially in things that belong to the worship of god : but all do acknowledge so far as i know , that in things ( though not expresly commanded ) which by their nature or circumstances are made conducible to the ends that christ hath enjoyned us to endeavour , the church may enjoyn us ; and that without making any new laws ; but by declaring the will of god. this and no more do all the arguments , which the author with much pains hath set down , conclude . and indeed , if our author had once proved the species of church government to be indifferent , we should not deny it to be determinable and imposeable ( not by the magistrate , but ) by the church . in the prosecution of his arguments , there occur several things that i cannot assent to ; but they not being to the question in hand , and intending to touch some of them in a treatise else-where , i pass them here ; he hath some greedy hints after obeying whatever is commanded , though unlawful ; the non-obligation of the covenant , &c. which do discover his spirit . though the author doth state the question as hath been said , yet all his reasons whereby , from p. 56. he proveth the determination of indifferent things , not to take away our liberty , doth prove as much , that determination grounded on mans meer will doth not take it away ; for in that case there may be left a liberty of judgment ; and there may be no necessity antecedent to the command ; as he saith in his first argument ; also in that case , the determining of the things supposeth them to be matters of liberty , which is a second medium , and the obligation in that case , is only in respect of contempt and scandal , which is his third argument ; and the repealing of the law or ceasing of the authority commanding , may free us of impositions made by meer will , which is his fourth argument . wherefore these arguments prove that which the author doth not own , if they prove any thing , which is a token that they prove nothing at all . but that i may shortly answer them . the first argument is inconcludent ; for though radical liberty , ( i. e. a right to do or not do ) be consistent with such commands , as men , without warrant from god , lay on us , ( their authority never being able to destroy that right given to us which is founded on the will of god ) yet these commands are an unlawful taking away of the exercise of our liberty : for where neither scripture nor reason ( which are gods law ) do bind , mans will ought not to bind ; especially in the things of religion . he hath here , p. 57. a gird by the way at them who hold one posture of receiving the lords supper to be necessary , as more destroying liberty , than doth the command of the magistrate imposing one posture . answ. if they hold this without warrant from the word of the lord ; i yield to what he saith ; but if they can prove that we ought in this to imitate christ , and keep a table-gesture as he did ; it is no destroying our liberty , unless he think it less liberty to be bound to the will of christ , declared by his example , than it is to be bound to the will of men . other falshoods i pass over ( it not being my intention to touch every thing ) but i wonder at a gross aspersion that he layeth on the apostle paul , viz. that he did use the jewish ceremonies , ( as that he circumcised timothy ) when they were not only mortuae but mortiferae , and that , where there was no opinion of their necessity . what is it i pray to say they were mortiferae , but that it was sin to use them ? ( for when they were mortuae , they were indifferent , not as to the opinion of their necessity , but as to their use ) then paul used them when it was sin to use them . i hope the author will not own this when he is better advised : but we see whither zeal for an errour will lead men . his other arguments run on the same mistake , viz. they prove that radical liberty is not taken away whatever be commanded : but they prove not that when men command without warrant from the lord , they hinder that exercise of liberty that the lord alloweth us . wherefore i need not insist on any further answer to them . p. 59. he maketh this difference between laws concerning ecclesiastical and civil things ; that these bind extra casum scandali & contemptus , those not so ; whether this doth consist with his opinion that both these laws are from the magistrate , let it be considered . i thought that the different way of obligation had been from the different authorities , not from the things about which the laws do converse : and that violation of all the magistrates laws , had been alike opposite to his authority . i mean , where the things are of equal moment , as certainly may be in things civil , and ecclesiastical . the wise advice of ambrose to augustine ( which he citeth p. 60 , 61. ) i do with augustine reverence as coeleste graculum : so it be understood of customes truly indifferent : but that the things we plead about , and that the author would permit to the will of the magistrate ; are such , we cannot yield : wherefore all this his pains about indifferent things , is to small purpose . what he saith , p. 62. of superstition in the imagined necessity of things really indifferent , i will elsewhere examine ; and what others also have alledged to that purpose . § . 10. his third step is to set bounds to the restraint of christian liberty , where his first rule is , that nothing be imposed as necessary , but what is clearly revealed in the word of god. but what if it be revealed , so as it is visible to them who read and search attentively ; though it be not clearly revealed ? must such things be slighted , as no part of gods will ? but of this we have said enough before . the second rule is , that nothing be determined but what is sufficiently known to be indifferent in its own nature . the way to know what is such , he maketh to be , by taking the primitive church , and the reformed churches to be judges in this . i confess , their decision should have much weight ; but we dare make none judge , but god speaking in the scriptures . what if christ hath in scripture signified his will in a point , and yet these churches looked on it , and used it as a thing indifferent ? must we then think it indifferent ? i hope not . this is to lay too much weight on men : especially considering that the mystery of iniquity ( which did prostitute all or most of christs institutions to mens will ; as if they had been indifferent things ) began early to work in the primitive church , 2 thes. 2. 2. and few reformed churches want their own lees ; from which the lord is yet daily purging them . wherefore i think ( with submission to better judgments ) a surer standard , to know what is indifferent , to be this ; what cannot be proved to be determined by the lord in scripture , and is not of the law of nature , neither primarily nor secondarily ; that is to be thought indifferent . passing his other rules ; in prosecuting the last , he openeth a door to humane ceremonies , ( though he seem to speak against them ) by approving the feast of dedication , the jewish ceremonies in the passover : sure these were some more than ordinary decency ; neither were to be esteemed of the same rank ( as he doth ) with building of synagogues , hours of prayer , which are meer order : the continuation of the passover by hezekiah which was transient ; no recurrent fast ; and had a reason then urgent ; and the feast of purim which was a civil solemnity : and the fasts of the 4th , 5th , and 10th months ; which were occasional for the captivity , and expired with it . but of this matter i treat at large elsewhere . § . 11. in his 5th hypothesis , there is an unwary expression , viz. that things determined , as aforesaid , by lawful authority in the church ( which to him is the magistrate ) do bind the conscience . i suppose he meaneth , that we are bound to obey for conscience sake ; and not that civil authority by it self doth reach the conscience , which protestants with good reason deny against the papists . the rest of his first part needeth not our animadversions , seeing it containeth nothing contrary to presbyterial government ; but rather asserteth several parts of it : wherefore i shall only set down briefly his assertions , many of which are so many concessions to us . he asserteth , ( cap. 3. ) that the law of nature dictates that there must be a society of men for the worship of god ; that is a church . and ( cap. 4. ) that there must be a government in this society . where he maketh 6 things in this government to be juris naturalis ; 1. that there be a distinction of persons , and a superiority both of power and order in some over the rest . 2. that the persons so above others have respect paid them sutable to the nature of their imployment . ( cap. 5. ) the third thing is , that all things either pertaining to the immediate worship of god , or belonging to the government of the church be performed with the greatest solemnity and decency that may be , ( cap. 6. ) fourthly , that there be a way agreed upon to determine and decide all the controversies arising in the church , which immediately tend to the breaking of the peace and unity of it . where he pleadeth for the definitive sentence in the major part , where power is equal ; and for liberty of appeals , where there is subordination ; as being of natural right : and that this subordination must be in a society consisting of many companies or congregations . ( cap. 7. ) fifthly , that all who are are admitted unto this society , must consent to be governed by the laws of that society . ( cap. 8. ) sixthly , that in a well-ordered society , ( and so in the church ) every offender against the rules of that society , must give an account of his actions to the governours of that society ; and submit to the censures of it , according to the judgment of the officers of it . all this we accept of as truth , but how this last doth consist with his putting all power of jurisdiction in the hand of the magistrate , and leaving the church-officers only power of preaching and administring the sacraments , ( of which before ) i cannot understand . so much for the first part of his irenicum . part ii. cap. 1 , 2. § . 1. in his second part we have also some concessions to be taken notice of , as cap. 2. p. 154. that there must be a form of government , as necessary , not by nature only , but by a divine law. this we receive as truth , and do thus improve it ad hominem : the author cannot shew us any express law in scripture , commanding that there be a form of government in the church ; neither can any scripture ground of this truth be brought , but what is drawn from apostolick practice ; they had a form of government , ergo , so must we ; seeing it is as needful to us as it was to them . now if this be so , why doth the author dispute so much against our reasoning from apostolick practice ( where the case is alike ) for this particular form of government , as being established by divine law ? if their practice be a sufficient evidence of a divine law ( beside the law of nature ) for this , that there be a form : why is it not as significant of a divine law for this , that this is the form ; where the case of them and us is alike . § . 2. we receive also as a concession , p. 157. that there is a divine warrant for a national church ; and for a national form of church-government . also , cap. 2. he concedeth that the government of the church ought to be administred by officers of divine appointment , is of divine right . where , in one word , he destroyeth ( unawares ) all that he saith for maintaining the lawfulness of episcopal government ; for he doth not deny that bishops as ruling over presbyters , and having more power than their brethren , are of humane constitution ; and so they cannot be officers of divine appointment : if so , then by this concession the church ought not to be ruled by them ; and so episcopal government is unlawful . i know not , if he did foresee this argument taken out of himself : but in explaining his concession he would fain seem to say some other thing than he hath indeed said : for he saith , that he here taketh the church for the members of the church : so that his meaning is , there must be a standing perpetual ministry : and this he proveth largely . this doth no ways explain what he hath said : for it is one thing that it be divine appointment that there are officers ; and another thing that these officers be such as god hath appointed . jeroboam when he made priests of the lowest of the people , kept divine institution so far , that he made priests ; and did make that work common to all : and yet his priests were not officers of divine appointment : so neither is the church ruled by officers of divine appointment , though there be officers who rule , which is divine appointment ; except these officers be such as god hath instituted , and not such as men have devised . and besides this , the law of nature dictateth that there should be rulers in the church , distinct from the ruled , as he had formerly observed : wherefore he must here either trifle , or say some more , viz. that the lord must appoint these sorts of officers that should govern his church : for the author is here speaking of what is of divine positive right ; having formerly shewed what is of divine natural right . § . 3. in the third chap. we have the question stated ; in speaking of the church as comprehending many particular congregations , ( and so excluding the independent way from this competition ) he compareth these two forms of government , viz. 1. the particular officers of several churches , acting in equality of power , called a colledge of presbyters . 2. a superiour order above the ministry , having the power of jurisdiction and ordination belonging to it . now the question is not whether of these cometh nearest to the primitive pattern : but whether either of them be setled by divine right ; so as that the church is bound to obseeve it . he holds the negative : we the affirmative : and we say , that the former of these two is juris divini . § . 4. for proving his opinion , he undertaketh to enervate all the pleas which are made for the divine right of either of these : five he proposeth , viz. 1. a former law standing in force under the gospel . 2. some plain institution of a new law under the gospel . 3. the obligatory nature of apostolical practice . 4. the general sence of the primitive church . 5. the judgement of the chief divines and churches since the reformation . of these he discourseth severally : and we shall give our sence of them as in following him we come at them . but first i must here note a few things . 1. it is an injurious way of stateing the question about this divine right , to exclude any who put in for it , from the liberty of competition : now he knoweth that others besides these plead a divine right of their way ; as erastians will have the keys given by christ to the magistrate : independents , to the community , or at least the officers of a particular church ( popery is not excluded , seeing it standeth on the same bottom with episcopacy ) though i think the resolution of the question about divine right , might have laid both these aside ; yet i think the stating of it might have taken them in ; and they might have a fair hearing ; lest some by seeing presbytery and episcopacy laid aside as of no divine stamp , might be tempted to take of either of the other two for christs government , rather than leave the matter wholly at an uncertainty , and the will of men . but i observe that though the one of these he doth altogether slight ; yet the other he doth not pass , out of any misregard to it ; for he laboureth to take all power by christ's gift , out of the hands of presbyters and bishops , that the magistrate might have it , in solidum . § . 5. 2. i observe , for further clearing the state of the question , that all other parts of these two forms of government , are confessed to be juris divini , vel naturalis , vel positivi , ( as from his concessions have been manifest , and will yet more appear ) only the matter of parity or superiority of ministers is in question : and it being so , i propose this to be considered : that parity be of divine right , it is sufficient , 1. that christ hath given power to all ministers to rule the church . 2. that he hath not given a greater share of it to some than to others . 3. that it is his will that as he hath distributed this power equally , so that no man make it unequal ; seeing that cannot be but by taking from the rest what christ hath given them , and giving to one what he hath not given him . if these three be granted , parity of power is christs will , and so of divine right . now our author agreeth to the first two as truth : for the first he asserteth in terminis ; the second he cannot deny , while he asserteth superiority not to be juris divini ; the question then is only about the third , viz. when christ hath given equal power to his ministers , whether men may make it unequal , by subjecting one of them to another ; abridging the power of one , and inlarging the power of another : or which is all one ; whether it be in the power of men , when christ hath made but one officer : to set up another of their own devising , who shall have a power that christ never gave to any officer in his church ? i am sure , we have this clear advantage ; that presbyters acting in parity , do keep themselves within the bounds of christs institution ; and can shew his warrant for so doing ; whereas setting up a bishop over them is without that line , and can be warranted by no divine institution . let it then be considered whether of these is the safest way for us to take . § . 6. 3. i take notice that the pleas that he ennumerateth for a particular form of government , are not all which may be alledged ; there may be many significations of the will of god in scripture , that are neither set down in the plain terms of a law , nor expressed by apostolical practice . we draw good consequences from promises , reproofs , &c. which may shew us what is our duty . 4. let it be minded that it is not needful for asserting of divine right , that we prove it from all these topicks : one demonstration that it is the will of god that such a thing be , is sufficient . 5. the question being stated as before , the probation will be incumbent upon him , who asserteth that it is lawful for men to make them unequal in power , whom christ hath made pairs : we assert that the power of ministers that is of divine right , is equal ; which the author doth not deny : he asserteth further , that men may restrain this power in some , and enlarge it in others ; for this he must shew warrant ; for affirmant , incumbit probatio : we deny it ; and here we might rest , till it can be shewed that christ hath given such power to men , to cut and carve on his institutions . the divine right of parity is built on the want of divine right of imparity . notwithstanding we hope , ( ex abundanti ) to make other pleas for it stand good , which he laboureth to make void . § . 7. the first plea from a standing law in the jewish church we do not insist on , knowing that in matters of institution , the old testament is no pattern for the new. neither are we obliged to insist on this plea , as he alledgeth , because some of ours do some times make use of their example , as in proving a subordination of courts : for 1. it is not instituted , but of the law of nature ; supposing once the unity of more congregations : now what is taught by nature may well be confirmed to us by the law of god to the jews ; though we be not bound by that law , where there is not that reason . again , jewish example should have weight with us , where their case is not peculiar ; seeing their practice came from an infinitely wise lawgiver : but this holdeth not in imparity , or subordination of officers : it is known that the high priest was typical : that the priesthood was annexed to one tribe , for a peculiar reason : these things do not concern us . chap. iv. he cometh to the second plea for a particular form of government , viz. christs instituting it by a new law , where he alledgeth , that it is more hotly pleaded by many , that christ must do it , than that he hath done it . this is a mis-representation , to say no worse . if it be not proved by the assertors of presbyterial government that christ hath instituted that form of government , let their cause fall to the ground . we are ready to acknowledge that it were rashness , and a limiting of the holy one , to say that he must institute a particular form : if we were not otherwise satisfied that he hath done it . but being convinced of that ; we may be very much confirmed in our opinion , by the consideration of these arguments , that hold forth , how fit , and how sutable to the wisdom of god , and the administration of christs gospel kingdom it is , that he should take this course ; and not leave the affairs of his house to mans will , or lust rather . this is not prescribing to him ; but a declaring of the fitness of what he hath done . moreover , we do not , neither ever did we argue barely from the necessity of a particular form to be instituted by christ , considering the thing it self only : but from some scripture ground holding forth the necessity of it . now if the lord in the contrivance of the gospel hath made it necessary to his design that there be a form of his appointment , and hath signified this to us by his word : it is no rashness to assert the necessity of it ; even though we could not ( through our darkness ) certainly determine what is that form , in all the particulars of it . but i come to examine what he hath said against the reasons that our authors do bring for the fitness of a particular form of christs instituting . § . 2. the first of them is taken from comparing christ the lawgiver under the new testament , with moses under the old testament ; and it is thus instituted , heb. 3. 2 , 5 , 6. that as moses was faithful in that house , as a servant ; much more was christ as a son ; if then moses was so faithful as to declare the will of god concerning the government of the church , and that particularly what form should be used , we must not think that christ hath left this undone . to this he answereth , 1. faithfulness is the discharge of a trust : so that the faithfulness of christ and moses lyeth in doing the work that the lord laid on them : and this was to be mediators , the one typical the other true. moses had the pattern shewed him in the mount , and therefore faithfulness required that he should settle that form , and no other : but it cannot be made appear that christ hath any command from his father of setling one form of government . so he , p. 176. to which i reply , 1. our argument may be so laid , as this answer doth not at all touch it , thus ; it is the will of god ( and so entrusted to the care of christ ) that there should be a government in the church ; as is confessed by our author : this government must be managed , hic & nunc , in some particular form , as sense and reason teacheth : now that christ might be faithful as moses was in the discharge of this trust , it was needful that he should set down a particular form to be used by all ; or appoint some who should determine what the particular form should be . but according to this mans opinion , he hath done neither of these : not the first , for that he pleadeth against : nor the second , for our author can shew us no scripture where it is intrusted to any : and if we should require a plain and direct law for this , in express and formal terms , as he doth of us in the like case ; he would find it a hard task : besides , if we consult scripture , there is far more to be said for the power of the church , than for the power of the magistrate in such a determination : and reason also may , at least , set them in equal competition , if not cast the scales in the favour of the church , it being a matter purely ecclesiastical , that is contended about ; and yet this man giveth the deciding power in this to the magistrate . it is strange if the government of the church under the old testament be so plain , and that under the new be left at such uncertainty . § . 3. 2. that moses and christ are compared as mediators , i do not deny : but this maketh nothing for , but against what he intendeth : for their mediatory work taketh in the management of all the dealings that are between god and his people ; and ( as it is here spoken of ) is chiefly meant of outward administrations , of teaching and ruling : for the inward administrations of satisfaction for sin , and communicating the spirit to believers , are not applicable to moses : now the setling the government of the church cannot but be a part of this mediatory work , it being of so much and so near concernment to the spiritual good of believers : wherefore christ and moses are here compared in their faithfulness , in setling of church-government as well as in other things . this is clearly confirm'd out of the 5th v. of that chap. where it is said , that moses was faithful in all his house : then the law of comparison saith that christ is also there said to be faithful in all his house , i. e. in all the matters of the church : now it cannot be denyed , but church-government is one , and that a main one , of the matters of the church . wherefore christ and moses are here compared in their faithfulness , in this administration . 3. his answer doth not well hang together , when first he will have them here compared as mediators , as if the matter of church-government were impertinent to that wherein they are compared ; and yet subjoyneth , that moses his faithfulness lay in keeping close to the pattern shewed him : whereas christ had no such command laid on him , nor pattern shewed him . if the faithfulness of moses did ly in keeping gods command , about church-government ; how is he only spoken of as a typical mediator ? and how is christ's faithfulness compared with this faithfulness of moses , seeing he received no such command ? § . 4. 't is false , that christ received no command about the government of the church : for the scripture is clear that he is made head of the church ; hath the government laid on his shoulders ; hath received all power in heaven and in earth , &c. if he be by his office king of the church , sure it is his office and trust to settle the government of his church . this reply he maketh to himself , and answereth to it ( p. 177. ) in two or three things : first , he granteth that christ is king of his church , and doth govern it outwardly by his laws , and inwardly by his spirit ; but we must not therefore say that one form of government is necessary , whether it be contained in his laws , or dictated by his spirit or not . to this i reply , 1. neither do we make any such inference : if we prove not one form to be contained in his laws , we shall pass from this argument . that which we say is , that because he is king , and a faithful king , as moses was , who setled a form of government , therefore a form is contained in his laws : not that it is necessary whether it be contained in his laws or not . 2. if christ be king and governs the church by his laws , and that outwardly ; how can it be that the particular form of its government is what many may think fit , and not of christs institution ? for the church is governed by a particular form , not by a general notion of a government ( for universale non existit nisi in suis singularibus ) if then the particular form be of mans appointing , the church is not outwardly governed by christs laws , but by mens ; for men make the laws , or rule of its government . if a king should send a deputy to govern a nation , and give him leave to choose what form of government he would , either by himself , or by a council where he should have but equal power with the rest : it could not be said in proper speech , that that nation is governed by the kings laws ( for he makes not the laws of its government ) but by the laws of them who determines the particular form of government . yea , suppose the king should make some laws about it , as that nothing should be acted contrary to his will , or interest , that there should be government , and not anarchy , that there should be rulers , and ruled , &c. yet the nation may rather be said to be governed by the laws of him who determineth the particular form : seeing the government doth essentially consist in the management of a particular form , and not in some general directions . this is easily applicable to our case : for our author will have christ to give some general directious about church-government ; and men to determine and contrive the form : now let any judge then , whether the church in that case be governed by the laws of christ , or the laws of men ? wherefore i conclude that this answer destroys it self , while it denyeth a particular form instituted by christ , and yet will have the church outwardly governed by his laws . 2. he saith , the main original of mistakes here , is the confounding of the external and internal government of the church of christ : and thence , whensoever men read of christs power , authority and government , they fancy it refers to the outward government of the church of god , which is intended of this internal mediatory power over the hearts and consciences of men . reply . we are willing to distinguish these ; and i believe he cannot shew any of ours who do confound them : yea , we will go further in distinguishing the outward and inward government of the church than he doth : and i may retort this charge on himself , hoping to make it appear that he confoundeth these two , and that this is the ground of his mistakes . the government of the church is then two-fold : inward , and outward : both these may be distinguished according to divers objects of this government : for inward government is either that which is exercised in the conscience ; and so is invisible : or that which is exercised in the church , or in matters that are properly spiritual and not civil ; though they be visible to men , and so outward in respect of the conscience . so outward government is either such in respect to the conscience , and it is that we have now described ; or outward in respect to the church , viz. that that which is exercised in matters relating to the church , and yet are not properly spiritual but civil , and concern the church , not as it is a church but as it is a society . or we may distinguish thus , the government of the church is either invisible , viz. in the conscience ; or visible ; and this is either in things that are ecclesiastical , and so it is inward in respect to the church : or in things that are civil , and so it is outward . the first of these is immediately exercised by christ ; the second mediately , and that by the guides of the church , as his deputies ; the third by the magistrate as a servant of christ in his kingdom that he hath over all the world. i hope now the outward and inward government of the church of christ is sufficiently distinguished , and not so confounded as to be the cause of mistakes about it . but now let us see whether he himself , who chargeth others with this confounding , be not guilty of it ; and doth not here mistake the truth by confounding the internal and the external government of the church . it is very evident that it is so : for , 1. he setteth down the bare terms of a distinction between internal and external government ; but doth not tell what he meaneth by either of them : whether the distinction be to be applyed to the conscience , and so be meant of invisible and visible government : or to the church , and so be understood of ecclesiastical and formal , or of civil and objective government of the church : we are to seek in this , for all his distinction . 2. he seemeth confusedly to refer to both these , as he here manageth the distinction ; or at least , some things seem to draw the one way , and some the other : for when he denyeth christs power and authority , spoken of in the scripture , to refer to the outward government of the church , this must be meant of that government which is civil , not of visible ecclesiastical government . i hope he will not deny that to be a part of christs authority . again , where he granteth christs internal mediatory power over the conscience ; this must be meant of his invisible government ; both because it is certain christ hath such a power , and our author here denyeth all other power of government to him : also because no other power is internal over the conscience but this . but what-ever be his meaning , this answer doth not take away the force of our argument , for if he deny the scriptures , that speak of christs power , kingdom , and authority , to be meant of civil power , but to be meant of visible internal power in the church ; this is all we desire ; for if christ hath such a kingdom ; then the management of the visible government of the church is his trust ; in which his faithfulness would make him settle a particular form as moses did . only i take notice how inconsistent this is with his principles , seeing he denyeth any visible power in the church ( save that of word and sacraments , as it followeth immediately ) and putteth all other power in the hand of the magistrate , as do all the rest of the erastians . if he deny the scriptures , that speak of christ's authority and kingdom , to be meant of visible ecclesiastical government , and make them speak only of an invisible government over the conscience ; which is exercised by his word and spirit ; in this first he is contrary to all men , for even erastians themselves do grant that christ hath such a kingdom ; but they would have it managed by the magistrate ; whom they make christ's vicegerent in his mediatory kingdom : and others do hold such a kingdom of christ , and that it is managed by the officers of his church . secondly , he derogateth from the kingdom of christ , denying that which is a considerable part of the exercise of his kingly office : what ? is christ a king , not only of angels , but of men , united in a visible society , the church ; and yet hath no visible government exercised in his name among them ? this is a ridiculous inconsistency . thirdly , he is contrary to many scriptures which speak of christs kingdom and authority ; and must be understood of a visible authority exercised in a visible government ; such as eph. 4. 10 , 11. setting up of pastors there mentioned is a visible act : and it is made an act of his authority , 1 cor. 11. 3. christ's headship is mentioned with a reference to the ordering the visible decency of his worship . also , psal. 2. 8. psal. 22. 27. psal. 110. 3. col. 1. 13. and many other places ; which it is strange daring to restrict to the invisible exercise of christs authority in the soul. fourthly , this is contrary to all these scriptures which speak of the several outward acts of the exercise of christs government ; as gathering a people to him , isa. 55. 4 , 5. acts 15. 14 , 15 , 16 , 17. giving them laws , isa. 33. 2. mat. 28. 20. mat. 5. 17 , 19. verses , &c. setting up officers , eph. 4. 10. 11. giving them power of discipline , mat. 16. 19. mat. 18. 17 , 18. john 20. 23. fifthly , it is contrary to himself ; for preaching and administring sacraments are visible acts : if then christ as king hath invested his servants with this power ( which he confesseth p. 177. where also he confesseth that he governeth the church outwardly by his laws ) he must have a visible government as he is king of his church . that which he addeth , viz. that this is made known to us in the word , but not the other ; viz. that he hath appointed a particular form : this i say , 1. beggeth the question . 2. destroyeth his answer , wherein he denyeth christ's visible government ; for this is a part of it , which he granteth . § . 5. another answer he frameth to our argument from christ and moses , p. 177. that if the comparison of christ and moses infer an equal exactness of disposing every thing in the church ; then we must be bound to all circumstances as the jews were : but there is this difference between the old and new testament ; that there all ceremonies and circumstances were exactly prescribed ; here there are only general rules for circumstantial things ; there , the very pins of the tabernacle were commanded ; here it is not so , but a liberty is left for times , place , persons , &c. reply , 1. we do not plead for an equal exactness in determining all things : we know the old and new testament state of the church requireth a diversity here : but we plead for the equal faithfulness of christ with moses ; now christ was intrusted with setting up a government in the church as well as moses ; whence it followeth that he behoved to enjoyn the particular form of it as moses did : seeing without this , great matters in the church , even that whereon its union and being , as a society , do hang , are left at a great uncertainty , and exposed to the will of man , who may and readily will erre . 2. the difference that he maketh between the law and the gospel is most false , viz. that there all circumstances of worship were determined , here not so : yea , it is with more truth observed by some that more circumstances of worship , were left to the prudence of men under the law , then now under the gospel : for every one of their actions imposed ; as sacrifices , washings , &c. had of necessity abundance of circumstances attending them ; as when , how , with what instruments , &c. wherefore the more ordinances there were , the more circumstances undetermined . there is indeed this difference ; that god under the law did by his command place religion in many natural circumstances of worship ; as in the day of circumcision , of killing the passover , &c. and so set them above the degree of meer circumstances , which he hath not done under the gospel : but it doth not follow that all things , even of greatest moment to church-order , and the worship of god are now left free , because we have not so many ceremonies as the jews had ; for those circumstances , which are of civil and common concernment to religion , and other actions , be left to prudence , and matters relating to the government of the church , which are of that nature , be also left free : yet we must not for that , think that the government it self , as managed , even the substance of it ( which must lie in a particular form , seeing a general notion of government is not practicable ) is left to the will of men . i hope our author will not say that the form of government is a circumstance , neither ought he to say that it is a thing of common concernment to the church and other societies : the church is a society singular , and of another nature than others , cant. 6. 9. she is but one , the only one of her mother , therefore her government must be sutable ; wherefore it ought not to be put in , in the same case with the natural circumstances that accompany all our actions ; which here the author most unwisely doth . § . 6. for a third answer he bringeth reasons why all punctillio's ( as he is pleased to speak ) should not be now determined as they were under the law. in this we do not contradict him , as appeareth from what is now said : quere non respondes ad rem ? neither is it savoury to account the form of government , by which the visible being of the church doth stand , a punctillio : such a diminutive expression is not without contempt . but let us hear his reasons : the first , p. 179. is taken from the perfection of the gospel-state above the jewish : that church needed the fescues of ceremonies to direct her , and must have every part of her lesson set her : this must not be still sub ferula , and not dare to vary in any circumstance which doth not concern the thing it self . as boy a at school hath his lesson and the manner of learning it prescribed : at the vniversity , more general directions do serve . in that church every circumstance was determined ; in this things moral remain in force , but circumstantials are left more at liberty . ans. 1. the point in question is not here touched : 't is not questioned whether the gospel-church should be loaded with ceremonies as was the jewish ; nor whether in every circumstance she be bound by a law ( though he doth falsly suppose that the jewish church was bound in every circumstance , as i have already shewed ) but rather whether she be bound in any thing besides the moral law : and particularly whether she be bound to a form of church government . such loose declamations as this , aggravating some absurdities impertinent to the thing in hand , are no solid refutations . i hope the church may be bound to a particular form of government , viz. to parity of ministers , and yet have liberty in abundance of circumstances . his example of a school-boy , and one at the vniversity ; of a son when a child , and when at age , makes nothing against us : for in both cases they are in subjection to some positive commands of the master or father : so is the gospel-church under some such commands , though not so many as the jews were . 2. is it contrary to gospel-perfection to be under the commands of christ as to a form of church goment , and to be ruled by a way of his contriving ? this must be a strange kind of perfection that he dreameth of . we believe that the church is yet so imperfect , and will be while on earth , that she hath need to be governed by christs laws ; and is far happier in that case , then if she were left to chuse her own way in matters of so great concernment as is the form of church government . 3. is it not as contrary , and far more , to the perfection of the gospel-church to be under a form of government , imposed by the magistrate ( as this man would have us ) then if it be imposed by christ ? sure christs yoke is easier then mens ; and his device must be better then theirs . indeed in things that concern one church and not another , it is better that the prudence of governours doth determine , then that there be an universal law binding all : but in things that are equally good to all ; it is better to be under christs general , then mans particular law. now the thing in debate , parity or imparity among ministers is attended with the same conveniences , or inconveniences , in all countries and conditions , and while men are prone to tyranny on the one hand and to divisions on the other : wherefore it is no ways unfit that christ should here decide the matter by a general law. 't is not like the time or place of meeting , which must vary in divers places : neither can he shew us any reason , why it should be one way in one church , and another way in another , except mans pleasure , which is a bad rule in the matters of christ. 4. whereas he saith that in the gospel church things moral remain in their force ; but circumstantials are left at more liberty : i suppose he meaneth natural morality , or things contained in the moral law ; and not things that have any morality , or goodness by any law of god : for if he meant this latter , he doth but trifle ; for his meaning must be , that things which are not determined by any command , and have neither good nor evil in them , are left at liberty ; which who doth not know ? neither can he say that it was otherwise in the jewish church as this his assertion must imply , if that be his meaning . if he mean the former ( as certainly he doth ) then , 1. it is an ill division of things that belong to the church , in morals and circumstantials : be there not christs positive institutions which belong to neither of these kind ? the lord's supper is no moral thing in this sence ; neither , i hope , is it a circumstantial thing that is left at liberty . 2. if he call all things circumstantial which are not thus moral ; and assert them to be left at liberty ; he doth at one blow cut of all the institutions of christ , and will have the gospel-church so perfect as to be under no law of god , but the moral law , and what laws men please to add unto it . this i hope he will retract when he considereth what he hath here asserted : for i perceive , that even learned men can say sometimes they know not what . § . 7. his second reason , p. 180. is this , the form of government among the jews in the tribe of levy was agreeable to the form of government among the other tribes ; and their ecclesiastical government was one of their judicial laws : wherefore , if in this we compare christ with moses we must hold it needful that he prescribe also a form of civil government . ans. 1. when we compare christ with moses , we have very good cause to make an exception where the scripture hath evidently made it . we compare them then as two mediators , entrusted with managing the affairs which concern mens eternal salvation ; among which are church administrations : hence there is warrant for stretching that comparison made of them in scripture to their faithfulness in appointing church government ; but as to civil government the scripture maketh a plain exception , when it evidently holdeth forth moses a state law-giver as , well as a church law-giver ; and it doth as evidently testifie that christ was not such ; when he denieth his kingdom to be of this world , joh. 18. 36. and that he is a judge and divider of inheritance among men , luk. 12. 14. and his mean condition in the world ( unlike to moses ) maketh this farther appear . wherefore there is no necessity of comparing them in civil , though we compare them in church-administrations . the lord was pleased to make the government of israel , in respect of church and state both , to be theocratia ; to give them both kinds of laws immediately from himself : that seeing he hath under the gospel done otherwise , as to state-government , he hath also done otherwise as to church-government ; what a mad kind of consequence is this ? and there is evident reason of this differing dispensation under the law , and under the gospel . i suppose if the difference of cases that arise from variety of circumstances did permit ; it were the happiest case for god's people to have all their actions and concernments particularly determined by the lord , who is wiser then men : now the lord doth thus with them , so far as it hinders not their happiness , by a load of multiplicity of laws : wherefore , seeing the church and state of the jews were commensurable , being in one nation , it was as easie for them to have their state-laws determined by the lord as their church-laws : but it is far otherwise under the gospel , where the church is spread over so many different nations , of divers dispositions and manners ; to have determined all things for the civil good of all these nations , which must be superadded . to the determinations of natures law , would have made the bible a burthen to men . but it is not so in ecclesiastical matters , there is nothing peculiar to the church as a church , or religious society , but ( supposing what nature dictates ) may without burthening people with many laws , be determined and imposed upon all . hence is it that the lord saw it for the good of the jewish church , to give them both civil and church-laws , and for the good of the gospel church to give them church-laws ; but to leave civil-laws to prudence guided by the general rules of scripture and nature . neither do i think ( as our author seemeth sometime to think ) that it was any part of legal bondage to have laws from god , even in the least matters : and that which is christian liberty to be free from gods laws in these things , when we are bound to the same by the laws of men : i should rather prefer their state to ours , thus far : but their bondage was , to have many things determined and imposed upon them which were naturally indifferent , and so free : which the lord hath now left free under the gospel . answ. 2. it is not to the purpose to tell us , that the government of the tribe of levy was like that of the other tribes : for church-government was very different from civil government for all that , viz. in this , that it was in the hand of the tribe of levy , and no other tribe , which was a positive institution of god : that it did cognosce of other matters than civil government did : that it did inflict other censures . but let it be never so co-incident with civil government , yet it was of gods institution , which is all that is needful to our purpose . that the form of ecclesiastical government took place among them , as one of their judicial laws , is a groundless assertion : yea , it is a begging of the question , and also taking away the distinction of church and state among the jews , which is not needful here to be insisted upon , till some man answer what mr. gillespie in his aarons-rod hath written to this purpose . § . 8. his third reason , ib. is , the people of the jews were an entire people when their church-government was setled : the gospel church was but in forming in christs and the apostles times : they settled what was for the present need of the church in her first constitution , as in appointing officers ; this will not serve when the church is grown , and spread : her coat cut out for her infancy must not be urg'd on her when grown . answ. 1. this doth no way satisfie the comparing of christ's faithfulness with moses ; for moses gave laws in the wilderness , not only for that wandring condition , but for their setled state in the land of canaan . must we then think that christ took care that the church in infancy should have his laws to be guided by , but afterward to be left to the dictates of men ? sure our lord was as careful to foresee future needs of his people , as to provide for present wants . 2. the church in the apostles days , though not so far spread as now , yet was so multiplyed and setled , as that she was capable to be ruled by parity or primacy : might there not be a bishop in ephesus , corinth , &c. and especially in galatia , a national church ? might there not be a college of presbyters then as well as now ? wherefore , if the apostles provided for present need , they behoved either to determine either of these two , ex ore tuo . 3. what is there in our case that maketh another kind of government needful , then what was needful in the apostles times ? we have many congregations which all need their several officers , and must be ruled in common ; either by all these officers , or by some set above the rest : was not this their case too ? i would fain know where lyeth the difference : may be in this , there could not then be one head over all the churches ; which now may , seeing the powers of the world profess christ. it is true , there was a time when government could not be setled , viz. when first a church was planted , and believers very few : but i am sure it was otherwise in many places before the apostles departed this life . 4. must we say then that the directions in the epistles to tim. and pet. and elsewhere , concerning church-administration , do not concern us ; but their force expired with that time ? i must see stronger arguments than any that this author hath brought , ere i be perswaded of this : and yet it doth clearly follow , out of what he he saith . yea , we must say that these scriptures which tell us what officers should be in the church , as , eph. 4. 12. 1 cor. 12. 28. rom. 12. 6 , 7 , 8. do not reach us : but it is lawful for the magistrate ( in this mans opinion ) to appoint what church-officers he thinketh fit for this time , as the apostles did for their time . for he saith , p. 181. the apostles looked at the present state of the church , in appointing officers . this i hope sober men will not readily yield to : yea , he is against himself , as we have seen before , and may have occasion further to shew afterward . § . 9. his fourth and last reason is , p. 181. the jews lived under one civil government , according to which the church government was framed and contempered : but christians live under different civil governments ; therefore if we compare christ with moses in this , we must say that christ did frame the church government according to the civil ; and so it must not be one but divers . ans. it is here boldly supposed , but not proved that the form of the jewish church government , was framed according to the civil , which we deny , and so raze the foundation of this reason . and whereas his assertion wants proof ; our denial shall stand on surer ground : for the civil government among the jews was often changed : they had judges , kings , governors under their conquerors : but we read not of changing their church government , which behoved to have been , had it been framed according to the civil . wherefore neither must christian church-government be formed by the civil , but by christs institution . § . 10. to these answers to our argument , he addeth , ex abundanti , as he speaketh , some arguments to prove the antithesis , viz. that christ did never intend to institute any one form of government . he might have spared this his supererrogation , except he had had more to say for taking off the strength of our argument then we have met with . but to his arguments , the first p. 181 and 182. he frameth thus ; what binds the church as an institution of christ , must bind as an universal standing law : one form of government cannot so bind , ergo , prob . min. what binds as a law must either be expressed as a law in direct terms ; or deduced by necessary consequence , as of an universal binding nature : the first cannot be produced ; the second is not sufficient ; except the consequence be necessary , and also the obligation of what is drawn by consequence be expresly set down in scripture ; for consequences cannot make institution , but apply it to particular cases : because positives being indifferent , divine institution must be directly brought for their binding ; so that no consequence can bind us to them , without express declaration that it shall so bind . this is no new argument , it is proposed by him p. 12. and answered by us p. — to what is said there , i shall add a little applyed to his argument , as here framed , his major is not so evident but that it needeth a distinction to clear it . what bindeth as christs institution must bind as an universal law , i. e. in all times and places , negatur , for there are cases in which the lord will admit , and necessity will impose a dispensation with some of god's institutions , as i exemplified before in the case of hezekiah keeping the passeover ; i. e. in all times where god or nature doth not make a clear exception ; or where the present case doth not exempt it self from the intent of that , as being given in a far different condition , conceditur . hence there were some of christs laws for the church , temporal ; some peculiar to some cases : these do not bind us , all the rest do , where they are possibly practicable . that the laws for parity of offices in the church are of the latter sort , we maintain . for his miner , we deny it , and for the disjunctive proof of it we are ready to maintain both the parts which he impugneth . and , first , that there is express law of christ for parity : which i wonder he should so barely deny that it can be produced ; when he knoweth or might know that it is brought by our writers out of mat. 20. 25 , 26. lu. 22. 25 , 26. but what he hath to say against the evidence brought from these and other places , we shall examine ; when we come at them . 2. though there were no express law for it , we maintain that there is abundant evidence drawn by consequence from scripture to shew that this is the will and law of christ : as for these two conditions that he requireth in such a consequence ; the first we own and maintain , that it is inferred by clear consequence from scripture that there ought to be a parity among ministers , thus ; what was the practice of the apostles in framing church government , should be ours also , except the case be different ; but the apostles did settle the ministers in equal power , without a bishop over them : neither is there any difference in our case that should cause us to do otherwise ; ergo , we ought so to practice . it is not needful to insist here on the confirmation of this argument , seeing we are here only asserting that this conclusion may be proved ; not undertaking the proof of it : which is fully done by presbyterian writers , and which we are ready to defend against what this author will object . for the second condition , viz. that what is drawn by consequence be expresly set down in scripture as binding : this is unlike mr. stillingfleet's ability to require such a ridiculous condition ; for if it be expresly set down in scripture as binding , then it is not a consequence but an express law ; and so belongs to the former part of his disjunction . and besides , it is a hard task to put any one upon , to find out a consequence so deduced in scripture : what if anabaptists , who deny consequences from scripture in the point of institution , should put mr. stillingfleet to prove infant baptism by such a consequence as this : where something is said in scripture , from which the duty of baptizing infants doth clearly follow ; and where it is expresly said in scripture , that it doth follow from this , that infants must be baptized ; he would find this an hard task , and yet he requireth the same of us . what he saith for the warranting of this strange doctrine , wanteth force . it is true consequences cannot make an institution , yet they may declare an institution : we may gather the will of christ in matters of institutions by scripture consequences as well as in points of truth . and though positives be indifferent , it is not needful that divine institution be directly declared ; for their binding ; seeing it is the will of god revealed that bindeth us , not his will revealed in such or such terms . he were a bad servant that would do nothing of his masters will , but what he declareth to him directly , and in the imparative mood : such servants to god this author would have us , that so we may have the greater latitude to be the servants of men ; taking their will instead of divine institution . § . 11. his second argument , p. 182. is this ; all the standing laws for church government in scripture may be applyed to several forms , ergo , there is no one form prescribed . for proof of this , he reduceth all the laws about church government to these three heads . 1. such as set down the qualification of officers . 2. such as require a right managing of their office. 3. such as lay down rules for the managing their office. on these he insisteth distinctly . before i come to what he saith on these three heads ; let me answer generally to the argument . and first by standing laws , i suppose he meaneth such as are expresly set down in the form of laws : and then we deny his consequence , for though these do only respect government , in its more general consideration , yet that doth not hinder but the species of it may be determined another way , viz. by apostolick practices , or consequences drawn from scripture . 2. though we should grant that all the laws set down in scripture are equally applicable to either form , yet the one form , viz. parity may be determined in scripture thus . parity and episcopacy do agree in many things ; suppose then they agree in all that is commanded in scripture ; and that episcopacy be so far warrantable : no wonder that they be not discriminated by these laws ; but then here comes the differences ; parity requireth no more for its establishment , but these scripture laws : and so it holdeth it self within the bounds of divine institution ; but episcopacy goeth beyond this boundary , by setting up a new officer in the church which the scripture knoweth not ; and so one form is determined , though not by any law condemning the other expresly ; yet by the laws that warrant it ; and the want of any law to warrant the other . 3. we deny that all the scripture laws reducible to these three heads , do relate to either form , in that wherein they differ . but let us hear his proofs . he beginneth with the first head , p. 183. where , i confess , that all the qualifications of persons which he mentioneth may be applied to either bishop or presbyter . but then , 1. this is an argument that bishop and presbyter are one , or rather that there is no such distinction by the will of christ ; for sure there are distinct qualifications required , the one being to rule , the other to obey : wherefore if the apostles had thought there might be both bishops and presbyters in the church ; surely he would have set down the qualities of a bishop as he is distinguished from a presbyter , as well as he setteth down the qualities of a presbyter . confirmatur , a man may be a well qualified presbyter acting under a bishop , and yet not qualified to be a bishop : wherefore if the apostle had thought it lawful to set the one over the other , his qualifications of church officers are very lame , seeing he doth not shew us who among the presbyters is fittest to be made my lord bishop ; as well as he sheweth who among the people are fit to be presbyters . 2. the laws concerning qualifications do require in all presbyters an ability to rule the church , and do suppose them to be rulers of the church ; as is clear , 1 tim. 3. 4 , 5. this is not applicable to episcopacy , for in episcopacy it is not needful that presbyters be able to rule , seeing they have no exercise of that faculty : as god createth nothing in vain , so he doth not require any qualifications of men in vain . is it imaginable that if a man be well qualified to preach , &c. and yet unfit to rule ; that the lord will have that man kept out of the ministry for that want of a ruling ability , seeing he should have no use of that faculty if he had it ? ergo , these qualifications are not applicable to episcopacy , where the bishop alone ruleth . if it be said , that this maketh the sole jurisdiction of bishops unlawful , not their being rulers together with the presbyters ; ans. if bishops be set over presbyters , they must either be only praesides , which is not contrary to parity ( for we speak of parity or imparity of jurisdiction ) or they must have authority above and over their brethren ; and if so they may rule without their brethren ; seeing they may command them and make that power void which christ hath given his servants ; and so the force of what i have said doth return . again , if presbyters under a bishop have ruling power , either they may determine without , or against his consent , or not ; if so , the bishop is but a president ; if not , the presbyters are but cyphers , seeing the bishop may do in the church what he pleaseth . sect. 12. he cometh p. 184. to the laws concerning a right managing of their work , which i do not deny to be applicable to either form ; and no wonder , for faithfulness is a commanded duty in what ever station god putteth a man : but our author taketh occasion here to infer the indifferency of either form . 1. because paul did not determine in his epistles to tim. and tit. ( which chiefly concern church-government ) whether any should succeed to timothy and tit. in ephesus and creet . ans. it is a bad consequence , for the thing did determine it self , for they were extraordinary officers , immediately called by god , being evangelists ; therefore they were to have no successors , unless the lord did so call them . further , they were not fixed in these places , but for a time : they did not live and die there ; which shewed that there was no need of successors to them in that office . again he argueth , that the apostle did not determine how the pastors of several churches should order things of common concernment ; which , considered with the former , would seem a strange omission , were either of these forms necessary . ans. this is no strange omission , nor should it so be esteemed by this author , who maketh all that is requisite for the right managing of affairs by the pastors of several churches , to be of the law of nature , viz. that they should meet , that one should moderate , that there should be appeals , &c. as i observed out of him before . 2. we deny that it is omitted : yea , this author in saying otherwise , contradicteth himself ; for he will not deny , but there are directions in these epistles for church-government ; and he affirmeth , that they are applicable to either form , ergo , to pastors acting in parity ; neither was it needful that there should be directions to them , which are not applicable to bishops governing , because the managing of the work is the same in both ways , except what nature maketh necessary to a society , or a single person governing , which also it doth teach . 3. the matter is determined even in these epistles , viz. 1 tim. 4. 14. where it is not obscurely held forth , that tim. was ordained by a presbytery ; which inferreth , that presbyters ought so to be ordained , and not by a bishop alone . 4. though the matter were not determined in these epistles , it is no wonder , they being written to particular men , but it is determined in other scriptures , viz. where christ giveth the keys , not to one , but to all the apostles then , the only church officers ; and where paul committeth the care of the church of ephesus , not to one bishop , but to the elders in common , act. 20. 28. of this he saith , p. 184. it is equally a duty , whether we understand by overseers some acting over others , or all joyning in equality . but by his leave , when the apostle giveth this charge peremptorily to all the elders of ephesus ( for to them he speaketh , not to these of other churches of asia , as he dreameth the text may be understood , upon what ground i know not ) there is no doubt left , whether he maketh it the duty of them all in common , or of some one set over the rest : and may we not think that this command is a standing rule , reaching even to us , as he himself saith , ( p. 185. ) of what is contained in the epistles to tim. and tit. ? and if so , then all pastors are bishops or overseers , not one over the rest by apostolick authority . he argueth thus , p. 185. tim. is charged to commit the things he had heard of paul to faithful men , who might be able also to teach others , 2 tim. 2. 2. had it not been as requisite to have charged him to have committed his power of government to them , & c. ? ans. 1. yea , he doth here commit power of preaching , and of governing , joyntly to timothy , to be transferred by him to others ; for of both these , i suppose , tim. had heard from paul : why then must we here understand the one , rather then the other ? in that he mentioneth teaching , not ruling , it is because teaching is the main business , and hath the other power necessarily joined with it , by divine institution . 2. it is not always needful to mention governing power , where ever the power of a minister is mentioned , and here , it cannot be deemed needful , because the apostle had formerly instructed tim. that he choose none to be pastors , but they who are able to rule too , whence it followeth , that when he biddeth him commit to them the pastoral charge , he intendeth ruling power as a part of it ; else to what purpose should he require ability to rule in them ? to the same purpose is what he saith of tit. that he bid him ordain elders , but told not what power did belong to them ; a negative argument from one place of scripture , is in concludent , such as this is : from the superiority of tim. and tit. ( i pass his clearing of it , from being an argument for episcopacy ) he inferreth two things , p. 186. 187. first that the superiority of some church officers ( he should have said presbyters , for of officers it is not questioned on either hand ) over others , is not contrary to the rule of the gospel . 2. that it is not repugnant to the constitution of the church in apostolical times for men to have power over more then one particular congregation . these saith he follow , though their office be supposed extroardinary ; and that they acted as evangelists . ans. it will follow indeed from these examples , that superiority is not contrary to nature , nor to the nature of a gospel church : also it will follow , that it is not contrary to gospel institution , that the lord should immediately , when he seeth cause , appoint such superiority ; and what if we say it followeth , that it is not contrary to gospel institution , that in some extraordinary cases , that superiority may be allowed for a time . but none of these are the thing in question : for this doth not follow , that because the lord did immediately call these men , and gave them extroardinary power over others ; therefore he hath not instituted , that the ordinary way of church government shall be by pastors acting in purity , which is here disputed . his third head of laws , formerly mentioned , he toucheth , p. 188. and bringeth instances of some general rules for church government , which i confess are not peculiar to one form : but this doth not hinder that there may be other rules which are such ; which himself instanceth ; as , that complaints be made to the church : it is an odd exposition to say , i. e. tell the bishop . the church implieth clearly a plurality . p. 187. had it been the will of christ , saith he , that there should be no superiority of pastors , there would have been some express and direct prohibition of it . ans. 1. might not a prohibition by consequence serve turn ? this is very peremptorily spoken . 2. what needeth any prohibition , when christ had instituted a way inconsistent with it ; this was a prohibition of it : now this he did by giving ruling power to all presbyters , as hath been already shewed . sect. 13. he bringeth another argument of his opposites , p. 189. viz. that it is of equal necessity , that christ should institute a certain form , as that any other legislator that moderates a commonwealth should do . his first . ans. to this is , that christ hath instituted such an immutable government in his church as is sufcient for the succession and continuance of it ; which is all that founders of republicks looked after , viz. that there be such an order and distinction of persons , and subordination , that a society may be preserved among them . till then it be proved that one form is necessary for the being of a church , this argument can prove nothing . reply , it is false , that legislators looked after no more but that , we find none of them , who setled not a particular form : yea this was necessary ; for these generals could not be practised , but in some particular form , this or that : and of these we find they choosed what they thought fittest : even so christ not only appointed generals , but knowing a particular form is only practicable , he chose that which he thought fittest ; mans choise in this is alterable , because other men may have as much wisdom and authority as they ; christs choise is not so , for the contrary reasons . his second ans. p. 190. is , what is not absolutely necessary to the being of a church , is in christs liberty , whether he will determine it or not : even as when i hear , that lycurgus and others did form a republick ; i conclude there must be government : but not that they institute monarchy , &c. this must be known by taking a view of their laws . reply , we acknowledge that form of government to be in christs liberty whether he will determine it , or not ; but we think it like , that he hath determined it : as for other reasons , so because even men have not appointed the generals of government , without a form in which they should subsist : much less would the wise god do so ; if they being wiser then others , did think it fitter to choose the form then to leave it at other mens will , much more would he . what he saith , of inferring , that they did appoint this or that form , from their modelling a common wealth ; is not to the purpose : for that they did appoint a form we know by history ; and , i suppose , that every one thinketh that they did wisely in so doing ; and that their doing so was for the good of the republick : hence we infer that it is like christ did so , seeing he sought his peoples good more then they ; and the church is less able to choose for her self , then those republicks were ; seeing church matters are of spiritual concernment , and so lie further out of the road of mens wit then the affairs of state do . i yield to him that we could not know , what form christ hath instituted , but by looking into his laws ; yea , and but that way , we could not certainly know that he hath determined any one form ; yet this doth not hinder , but such arguments as this may have their own weight . the testimony he bringeth out of mr. hooker , is answered from what hath been said , and i am to meet with it elsewhere : he mistaketh our intent in such arguments , and falsly supposeth that the form we plead for is not found in the bible . sect. 14. he bringeth another argument , p. 191. from the similitude of a vine which must have its dressers ; and a house , and a city , which must have government : it was very easie for him to answer the argument thus propounded ; i know not who ever did so manage it : but it might have been thus improved , a wise master of a vineyard will not let his servants do what they please , but will appoint them his work in his vineyard ; and a master of a family , or a king in a country or city , will not let the servants or subjects chuse in what they shall be governed ; ergo , if the church be a vine , a house , a city , and christ be the head and ruler of it , it is not like that he hath left the choise of the way of governing it to men , but hath appointed it himself : if he had thus propounded the argument , it had not been so easily answered . the same way he useth the next argument , p. 192. taken from the difference of civil and ecclesiastical government ; the one of which is called the ordinance of man , and the other is gods ordinance ; therefore though that be mutable , this is not . i chuse rather to frame the argument otherwise , out of his own concession he maketh difference between these two governments , the one is for a political , the other for a spiritual end ; the one for a temporal , the other for an eternal end ; the one given to men as men , the other to men as christians ; the one to preserve civil right , the other to preserve an eternal interest , &c. then , however the lord let men chuse the way of attaining political and temporal ends , and provide for their own standing as men , and preserve their civil rights ; yet it is strange to think , that he hath left it to mens choise to take this or that way for attaining their spiritual and eternal end , for procuring their standing as christians , for preserving their spiritual rights : though the one be the ordinance of man , sure the other must be the ordinance of god : but the form of church-government is the way to attain these , because church-government is the mean , as is confessed , and it cannot be acted but in a particular form , and the form is the way of managing that mean , and so attaining the end ; yea , it is such a way as hath exceeding influence upon attaining these ends , seeing a wrong form may more hinder than promote them ; man , i suppose , may chuse a way that may do more hurt than good ; it is strange then if christ hath left this which is of such high concernment , to such high ends , to the will of corrupt men : and this argument may have the more weight ad hominem , because this author is often endeavouring to shape church-government according to the civil , which is very unsuitable to what he asserteth of their differences . sect. 15. another argument p. 194. is , if the form of church-government be not in scripture determined immutably , then it is in the power of the church to make new officers which christ never made . to this he answereth : 1. these officers are only said to be new which were never appointed by christ , and are contrary to the first appointment of christ , but one set over many pastors is not such ; for besides the general practice from the first primitive times , christ himself laid the foundation of such an office , in appointing apostles . reply . here are many things hudled together , to excuse episcopacy from novelty , which we must examine ▪ severally . 1. they are not a new office , would he say , because christ instituted such an office , viz. apostles . reply . i hope he will not say , that the office of an apostle , and of a diocesan bishop , is the same office ; for the apostles had much power , which bishops have not , and were extraordinary officers , immediately called by god , so are not bishops : and however there may be some resemblance between them , yet if they be not the same office , it must be a new office from what christ appointed : it is not the want of similitude , but the want of identity , with what hath been before , that maketh a thing new ; neither need we enter the dispute with him , what way extraordinary , and what not , in the apostolick office , nor doth the question lie in that , as he alledgeth ; for we maintain ( and i think it will not be deni'd by him ) that the office in complexo , viz. as it did subsist in rerum naturâ , was extraordinary , and is ceased ; and therefore whatever office is made up of some part of the power they had , without the rest of it , must be a different office from that , and so new . indeed if christ had given them their power by halves , and made the one half of it common to some officer appointed by him to continue in the church , viz. power over presbyters , and the other half of it peculiar to them , then bishops having power over presbyters , though they had been a new office from the apostles , and not the same , yet should they have had the same office with these others that we supposed , and so had not been new simply ; but there being no such thing , they must be in another office than christ ever appointed , and so simply new . wherefore it is an unreasonable demand of the author , p. 195. that we must prove power over presbyters to be extraordinary , before we say it must cease : for it is enough that the whole office be extraordinary , that it be not a patern for any other office that should be the same : yea , we can easily prove that that power , as in the apostles , and making up the complex of their office , was extraordinary , because it cannot survive the office it self under that notion ; and we can also prove , that christ never instituted any such power by it self , and without the other parts of the apostolick office : whence it clearly followeth , that such a power by it self ( which is a clear description of the episcopal office ) is divers from all the offices iustituted by christ , and so is a new office : what he saith of the ceasing of this power with the apostles , as to its necessity , but not as to its lawfulness , is most impertinent , and a begging of the question ; for the conclusion of the argument is , that it is unlawful , because it hath no institution , that institution which it had in the apostles being ceased . his confirmation of this his distinction containeth a manifest falshood , viz. to make a thing unlawful , saith he , which was before lawful , there must be an express prohibition forbidding the use of such a thing : this , i say , applied to the matter in hand , is most false , for we speak of things which have their lawfulness only from institution , viz. authority given to one over others : now that which is thus lawful , becometh unlawful , meerly by the withdrawing of the institution , though no express prohibition of it be made . as is evident from the like case among men , when a king giveth a commission to a judge , it is lawful for him to act in that capacity : now if the king shall call in his commission , though there be no express forbidding of the man , i suppose it is now become unlawful for him to act . just so is our case ; one pastor can have no authority over another , unless it be given him by christ , who ascended up on high , and received these gifts for men , eph. 4. now christ had given once such a power to men , viz. the apostles , this he hath now withdrawn , by not giving such commission to any others , but the apostles ; for i suppose ( to follow the former example ) that when a judge which had a commission dieth , it is a sufficient withdrawing of his commission , that the king doth not give it to any other who may succeed him : wherefore any who take that power to them , do it without commission from christ , which is unlawful . sect. 16. another answer he bringeth to this argument , p. 195. on which he insisteth much , as a foundation tending to establish his whole cause , but i hope it shall prove a ruinous foundation . the answer is this ; the extending of any ministerial power , is not the appointing of any new , but a determining the extent of that in actu secundo , which every minister hath in actu primo . for clearing this , he undertaketh two things . 1. to shew that the power of every minister doth primarily and habitually respect the church in common , which i do freely yield to him . 2. p. 197. that the officers of the church may in a peculiar manner attribute a larger and more extensive power to some particular persons , for the more convenient exercise of their common power . before i come to examine what he saith to this purpose , let me note : 1. that he speaketh here in a new strain , before he had attributed this power of determining to the magistrate , now the officers of the church must have it , which i confess is more fit : but he soon repenteth , and in the end of the same page maketh it lye between the pastors and magistrate , whether he please . it is strange to see how those who loose hold of the truth , hang as meteors , and know not where to fix . i take notice ; 2. that whereas the former part of his undertaking ( which he knew to be out of controversie among them against whom he disputeth ) he establisheth by five strong arguments ; but for that part where the stress of the matter lieth , he hath not brought so much as one reason to evince what he saith , but some few bare assertions for the clearing of it ; and indeed it is sometimes easier to prove the thing that is not , than the thing that is denied , even to such able men as mr. stillingfl . but let us now attend to what he saith for his opinion : we have seen , saith he , that their power extendeth to the care of the churches in common ; that the restraint of this power is a matter of order and decency in the church . here are two things , the former of which we have heard , and seen solidly proved ; but the latter i have not yet seen , where he hath done any thing but asserted it , as he here doth : but sure , it being a matter of such concernment and controversie , needed some more proof ; wherefore i cannot pass it so slightly as he hath done . we may distinguish a twofold restraining ( the same holdeth in enlarging ) of the exercise of the power of church-officers , viz. in respect of the object of it , and in respect of the acts of it . restraint , in respect of the object of this power , may be subdivided : first , when that power is permitted or appointed to be exercised over more or fewer objects of the same kind , which it doth respect by the appointment of christ ; as that a minister should have a narrower or larger bounds for his parish , or more or fewer people to watch over ; and so of the limiting of presbyteries , synods , &c. this restraint , or enlargement of power in its exercise , we acknowledge to be a matter of order and decency , and may be determined by the prudence of the church . secondly , when it is extended to the objects of another kind , or restricted from the whole species of these objects that christ hath appointed it for ; as when a bishop by himself , who by christs institution hath only power over the people , getteth power , given him by man , over his fellow pastors ; and when a presbyter , who by christs institution hath a power over the flock to rule them , is hindred from the exercise of this power altogether , and is set only to feed , and this ruling power , as to its exercise , is wholly devolved upon another : this we deny to be a matter of order and decency committed to the churches prudence . restraint and enlargement , in respect of acts of power , is when some acts which may be by christs institution exercised by all presbyters , are only permitted to be exereised by some , and not by others ; as ordination , church-censures : and when some are authorized to do some acts of power that christs institution giveth them no commission unto ; this , together with that restraint mentioned in the second member of the subdivision , we prove , not to be matters of order , left to the prudence of the church , but to be the setting up of a new office in the church . 1. order that the church is commanded to look after , requireth the right circumstantiating of these acts which christ hath appointed to be done in his church ; as that they be done in fit time , place , method , &c. neither can this ordering of things reach beyond the determination of circumstances , for whatever is more than this , is not an ordering of that action unto which the circumstances do belong , but an instituting of a new action ; because ( for example ) the right order of reading doth not require prayer , or singing to be joyned with it , but respecteth only the circumstances of reading it self : now , such restraining or enlarging of the exercise of power , is no right circumstantiating of it , but some other thing ; it being no circumstance of the exercise of pastoral power , whether he shall rule or not , but an essential part ( i mean as to the integrality , it being an integral part ) of that power which christ hath given him , as is confessed : also , giving the exercise of that power to one which belongeth to many , is not adding of a circumstance , but a supernumerary part of power ( as to its exercise ) above these parts that christ hath given them ; ergo , this is no ordering of the exercise of power , but setting up of it a new . 2. order that belongeth to the prudence of the church , is that unto which confusion is opposite ; then is that order obtained , when all confusion is avoided ; but confusion may be avoided , without this restraining and enlarging of church-power by men , else it were in no case lawful to let power be exercised as it is instituted by christ , because we must always be careful to avoid confusion ; ergo , i confess restraining of the exercise of power , as to objects of the same kind , as fixing of parishes , is necessary to avoid confusion : but this cannot be said of taking power of ruling out of the hands of presbyters , and giving it to bishops ; else we must say that episcopacy is necessary , which destroyeth this mans hypothesis . if it be said that sometimes it falleth out that this is necessary to avoid confusion , and then episcopacy is necessary . ans. if we should grant that it is sometimes useful to avoid confusion , as that which may be the fruit of parity , yet it cannot be said that parity it self is confusion : now , it is not in the churches power to take her own way , to avoid whatever may have a bad effect ( for the best things may be such ) but she must shun that which is evil by a right managing , not by laying aside that which is good : wherefore seeing order is consistent with parity , and parity with the institution of christ , and imparity goeth at least a step beyond the institution , and taketh that from men which christ gave them , and giveth it to some to whom he gave it not , this cannot be a right ordering of his institution , but rather setting up some other thing in the place thereof . 3. the right ordering of the exercise of that power which christ hath given to men , must consist in determining of these things which he hath not determined , and yet are necessary to be determined , as time , place , extent of parishes , &c. for if men either take upon them to determine in these matters , which he hath already determined by his institution , or to determine things that he hath left at liberty , because the determination was not needful to his design , they then , would be wiser then he , and do not order his institutions , but set up their own . now this which our author calleth ordering is guilty of both these ; for christ by giving ruling power to all presbyters hath declared his will that they shall all rule , and especially by requiring an ability for this , as a necessary qualification of them , who should be put unto that office : do not men then , by appointing who should rule , pass their determination on what he hath already determined , and that contrary to what he hath appointed . again , christ hath not appointed any superiority and inferiority among presbyters ; neither is it needful this be , the church may be without it , and yet men take upon them to appoint it . is this then to order that government that christ hath appointed , and not rather to set up new officers that men have devised . sect. 17. next he subjoyneth a strange assertion . now , saith he , in matters of common concernment , without all question , it is not unlawful , when the church judgeth it most fit for edification , to grant to some the executive part of that power , which is originally and fundamentally common to them all . answ. if it be so , all this pains that our author is at , is needless , and his book to no purpose : for i mistake much , if the main business in it be not to prove the lawfulness of this , which here he asserteth to be unquestionably lawful . for he confesseth that ruling power is given by christ to all presbyters : then , we must either say that it is his institution that they all exercise it and so parity is his institution : or , that the executive part of it may be given to some , or may be common to them all ; and so the form of government may be left indifferent is the scope of this book . now if it be unquestionable , what needeth all this pains about it . but i conceive , this confident assertion is put instead of the arguments , whereby this undertaking of his should have been confirmed : it is an easie thing , when one cannot find proofs for their opinion to say , it is out of question , but it is an unhandsome way of disputing , especially unbeseeming the person , who could not but know that this is denied by his opposites , and is the main hinge of the controversie in hand . we do maintain this antithesis , that it is the question between us and them who are for the indifferency of church government , whether the exercise of ruling power may be taken out of the hands of ministers , and given unto one , to be bishop over them : and we maintain the negative as that which should be out of question : and this we shall not barely assert , as mr. stilling f. hath done his opinion . 1. then , this taking the exercise of that power from men , which christ hath given them is unwarrantable ; ergo , it is unlawful ; i hope , the consequence will not be denied : for what we lawfully do must be some way warranted , either by a command or a permission . the antecedent i prove , because a warrant for such a practice cannot be shewed , and further , if there were any warrant for it , it must either be from christs command , or 2. from his express permission , or 3. from the law of nature , or 4. from want of a law forbidding it : but none of these do warrant it , not the first nor second , for our opposite cannot produce such command or permission , either directly let down or drawn by consequence from it . nor the third , for then they must produce some dictate of the law of nature which giveth leave to do this ; but what that shall be i understand not . nature indeed teacheth , that a society may use means , for its own peace and order : but this may be without hindering the exercise of that power , the supreme governour giveth to any of his officers : there may be this in the church where presbyters rule in common . nature also teacheth that when more have a common power , they may consult about the best way of managing it ; but it doth not teach that they may mannage it otherwise then it is committed to them by him who gave it ; which they must do if they put it into the hands of one , which is given to more : especially , when it may be managed well without such crossing the institution of it . besides all this , nature can never warrant this alienation of the power that christ hath given to his servants ; because nature doth only warrant us to step beside christs institution ( in his matters ) where institution is not sufficient to attain that which is naturally necessary ; or when the acting only by institution would cross nature : but there is no natural necessity of giving all power to a bishop , which christ hath given to presbyters : neither doth leaving the exercise of it in common cross nature : ergo nature doth not warrant this practice . neither can the fourth warrant it , for then it should be in the power of men to take all the power that ministers have from christ out of their hands and give it to one , so that only my lord bishop might preach , baptise , &c. as well as that he only may rule ; for their is no law forbidding the church , to lay all the parts of pastoral power on one , more then forbidding to lay one part of it on one . sure sobriety and due reverence to the institutions of christ would teach us to think , that while he hath given equal power to many it should be a sufficient forbidding , that any be so bold as to lay the exercise of that power on one , taking it from the rest . sect. 18. 2. i prove it thus . when christ giveth a power to his servants to manage the affairs of his church , it is not only a licence , whereby they are authorized to do such work , if they think fit , but it is a trust : they get it as a charge that they must give account of , as is evident from the command to this purpose given them , act. 20. 28. take heed to the flock over which the holy ghost hath made you overseers : here is a command to overseers to do that work , and they must give an account of this their charge , heb. 13. 17. rulers who must be obeyed are such who must give an account . now it is not lawful for one , who getteth such a trust , to lay it on another : neither may any take it out of his hands to bestow it upon another without his leave , who gave that trust : when christ hath commanded ministers to rule , and will seek account of them , may they lay their work on a bishop ? will it be well taken in the day of account , to say , they committed their flock to another to keep , who left them to the wolf , or scattered , and slew them : will not the lord say to them why did not ye feed them your selves ? sure christ will require account of them to whom he gave the charge , and that is of pastors , neither will he ask account of bishops , except for their usurpation . ergo it is not lawful , to take the exercise of church power out of the hands of ministers , and give it to a bishop . 3. proof . if presbyters , who have received power from christ may put the exercise of it into the hands of a bishop alienating it from themselves ; why may not bishops devolve their power on one who shall be over them , and so we shall have an universal bishop the pope ; in whom shall rest all church power , and at whose direction it shall be exercised ? if that may be done , there is no shadow of reason why this may not be done , for if once the power be taken out of the hand of them to whom christ hath given it , then prudence must be the only director to teach us who must have it : now prudence will as well say , that bishops must have one over them to keep them in order and peace , as that presbyters must have one over them . neither is there here any inconvenience that is not there ; for that one may turn to tyranny as well as the other : and a bishop cannot oversee his charge , without substitutes , more then the pope can do : the one may substitute bishops , cardinals , &c. as well as the other may substitute dean , prebends , archdeacon , &c. now , i hope , mr. stillingfleet is not come to that , to think the papal office an indifferent ceremony . ergo . neither should he think so of episcopacy . 4. if presbyters may devolve the exercise of that power that christ hath given them into the hands of a bishop , then they may also give away with their power the very office that christ hath given them : but this they may not . ergo i prove the major , for when they devolve the exercise of their ruling power on the bishop , they not only consent , that they shall rule the people , which they might do : but they make it unlawful for themselves to rule , yea , they give up themselves to be ruled and commanded by them , so that he is their judge and cannot be judged by them , in case of male-administration ( at least this is true de singulis if not de omnibus ) but this is to give away the very power ; for if i may not act , how have i a power to act ; if both i and the people be under the command of another , so that i may not act any thing in reference to the people but by his authority , how have i power to rule ? sure a power is the possibility of the act ( quantum est ex parte causae ) and a moral power is such a lawfulness of the act , but in this case presbyters want that possibility , or lawfulness of that exercise of ruling ; and that so , as the defect or hindrance ex parte causae , is in themselves , who should put forth the acts , ergo , they want not onely the exercise but the very power of ruling , which christ gave them , in such a case . the minor of the argument is evident ; for such an alienation were a clear contradicting of christ : he saith it shall be lawful for you ( such a one being lawfully put into the ministry ) to rule : he by this alienating saith , it shall not be lawful for me to rule . if it be said , that christs gift maketh it lawful for such a one to rule , but not in all cases ; as suppose the good of the church requires that this power be taken from him ; his alienating maketh it onely unlawfull in this case , when for the good of the church , he hath quit his right : so that here there is no opposition ; christ giveth him a jus in actu primo , he alienateth onely this jus in actu secundo , as mr. stillingfleet doth express it . answ. 1. however there may be some colour of reason why this may be done in some extraordinary cases ; when christs institution ( which is calculated to ordinary cases , and must ordinarily take place ) cannot reach the end of government : yet to say that it may be done ordinarily , cannot but clash with christs institution : for when christ giveth ruling power to presbyters , though we may think that it is not his will , that they must needs exercise it in all cases , yet must we think that he intendeth they should exercise it ordinarily : for why giveth he them a power , which they as readily never as ever act , and that as men please to determine ? we must not think that it is the intent of christs commission to his servants , that men may without the force of necessity laid on by an extraordinary providence ( and then god doth it and not men ) hinder the acts of it as as they will. 2. it is supposed without ground that the good of the church can ordinarily require the restraining power given by christ ; for if we speak of what is ordinarily good for the church , how can we better discern that than by looking into christs institution ? wherefore , seeing by this equal power , at least in actu primo is given to presbytery ; we are to think , that the exercise of this power is best for the church ; though ambitious men , and they who would flatter the magistrate , think otherwise ; yea though the best of men should dissent , sure christs giving such a power saith more for the goodness of the exercise of it then mens opinions , though seeming to have a foundation on some inconveniencies of it can say against it : especially considering , what ever way beside , men devise , is attended with as great , if not greater inconveniencies of another nature . 3. i have already made it appear , that this alienation of power given by christ doth not only reach the actus secundus of it , but even the actus primus ; seeing a man is not in capacity to recal his deed , and reassume the exercise of his power , though it were improved never so much against the end of christs giving , and his alienating of it . sect. 19. 5. proof ( which is directly against enlarging the exercise of church power in the hands of any beyond what christ hath given them ) if the exercise of that power , which christ hath given to all , may be taken from the rest and given to one , then that one getteth a power both in actu primo & in secundo , which he had not from christ , but this is unlawful , ergo the major i prove : for it is clear he getteth power in actu secundo , which he had not from christ , ergo he getteth such power in actu primo , seeing actus secundus cannot be without primus , nor lawful exercise of power without the jus or power it self . if it be said , that christ giveth only the actus primus , and that so as it extendeth to the whole church : and therefore no actus secundus of power can be given to one , which doth extend further than this . answ. 1. it is true , he giveth formally only the actus primus , but the actus secundus doth result from it , and therefore he giveth both . 2. it is true , the power that christ giveth doth extend to the whole church , but this must be understood with a twofold distinction . dist. 1. disjunctive it is true , that is , every minister hath a power to rule whatever part of the church , this , or that , or another ; so that no part of it is without his commission , as that he should go beyond his bounds in being set over it . conjunctive , it is false , that is , christ hath not given so much of the actus primus of power to rule all , or many congregations . dist. 2. when christ giveth the actus primus of power to a minister , extending to the whole church ; it is to be understood in adequate , i. e. that he hath a share in that power so extended ; and may in conjunction with other rule the whole church : not adequate , i. e. christ hath not given to any such a power , as that he by himself or with a few excluding the rest , who are also in the commission , rule the whole church . so that when ever any one exerciseth authority by himself , or excluding others , who have the same power granted by christ , over more than his particular congregation , over which he may have personal inspection ; he taketh a power in actu secundo , where christ hath given him no jus , nor actus primus of power . the minor of the argument is manifest ; for when both power and exercise of it is given to a man , which christ hath not given ; this is setting up a new office , which christ hath not set up : for what is an office in the church , but a power and a lawful exercise of it ? but this our author confesseth to be unlawful , ergo 6. proof . 't is presumption even among men for a servant to commit that work to another to do , which his master hath given him to do , except he know , that he hath his masters leave so to do : this is so well known , that i need not insist on it , ergo it is much presumption , when christ hath committed the ruling of his house to every minister , that some should devolve that work on a bishop to do it for them , unless they could shew christs warrant for this , which if mr. stillingfleet or any other will do , we shall acquiesce . if there be any disparity in this comparison , i am sure it will tend to the strengthening , not the weakening of our argument , for we are more absolutely under christs command , than servants are under their masters ; his commands are more perfect and effectual to compass their end , without our taking our own way in managing obedience to them , then mens are : also , the there is a greater tie to cleave scrupulously to his injunctions than to mens : also the matters about which they are , be of more weight , and miscarriage in them more dangerous , then mens commands . all which make it more absurd to commit the exercise of our power , that he giveth to others , than for servants to do so with their masters work . sect. 20. for better understanding of what he had said , our author subjoyneth a distinction of a twofold power belonging to church officers , viz. a power of order in preaching the word , visiting the sick , administring the sacraments , &c. this he maketh to be inseparably joyned to the function ; and to belong to every ones personal capacity , both in actu primo , and actu secundo , and a power of jurisdiction , in visiting churches , overseeing particular pastors , ordination , church censures , making rules for decency : this he maketh to be in every presbyter quoad aptitudinem and habitually , so as he hath a jus to it in actu primo ; but the exercise and limitation of it , and some further power of choise and delegation to it , and some further authority besides the power of order . and when this power , either by consent of the pastors of the church , or by the appointment of the christian magistrate , or both , is devolved to some particular persons ; though quoad aptitudinem , the power remain in every presbyter ; yet quoad executionem , it belongs to them who are so appointed . to this , i reprove a few things briefly . 1. i take notice here of a contradiction in terminis , to what he taught , part. 1. c. 2. p. 41. and we refuted p. there he made the power of order peculiar to ministers and power of jurisdiction peculiar to the magistrate , describing both powers no otherwise then he doth here , and yet here he giveth the power of jurisdiction as well as of order to ministers . 2. seeing he acknowledgeth both powers quoad jus to be equally given by christ to all ministers ; it is strange that he should deny that men may restrain the one ( for he confesseth the actus secundus of it to be inseparably joined to the office ) and yet doth boldly affirm that they may restrain the other ; without giving the least shew of permission that they have from christ who gave both powers , so to tamper with the one more then with the other . if christ hath made no difference between these ( and if he hath it should have been produced ) how dare men do it ? i confess , nature maketh a necessity of restricting the power of jurisdiction : for if every one should rule , when and where he pleased , there would be confusion ; and therefore it is needful that every one have their own charge which they exercise this power over : but this is common to the power of order also ( though with some difference ) for it is not fit that every minister should preach and baptize where and when he pleaseth , without any limitation . neither could this be without confusion . also christ hath made a limitation of the exercise of the power of jurisdiction ; for by giving it to many , and making it relate to things of common concernment , he hath , eo ipso , determined , that none of these who have it , shall exercise it by himself nor without the concurrence and consent of them , who are equal in commission with him . this limitation of the exercise we confess to be warrantable : but what reason there is , i cannot understand , why men should take away the exercise of ruling power from many , and give it to one , more than they can take away the exercise of preaching power , and so give it to some , as it shall not be lawful for them to preach , but only to rule , more than they can take away the exercise of both powers , seeing christ hath equally given them . sure it is an impregnable argument that our author here furnisheth us with against himself ; men may not restrain the exercise of the power of order , further than nature maketh it necessary ; ergo , they may not any further restrain the exercise of the power of jurisdiction , because christ hath not made such a difference in his giving these powers to men . if it be said , that the restraint of the power of jurisdiction is sometimes necessary , because parity breeds factions , and many are unfit to rule . ans. even so , letting all preach , doth often breed heresie , many preach false doctrine , and many are unfit to preach . so this argument must either plead for the restraint of both powers , or of neither . let us then see what must be the remedy of this abuse of the power of order , and the remedy of the abuse of the other must be proportionable : sure the remedy is not to restrain the exercise of the power of preaching ( except it be for a time , in expectation of their amendment , which holdeth also with reference to ruling power ) but to put such unfit men out of the ministry . were it fit to lay the work of an heretical preacher upon a curate , and let him still have the charge of the flock , though his curate doth the work for him ? no , but he should be removed , and another put in his place : even so , they who are unfit to rule , must not have a bishop do it for them , but be removed , that other fit men may be put in their place ; seeing ruling abilities are a necessary qualification of a minister , as well as preaching abilities , as was shewed before . if parity breed factions , we must censure the guilty , not cross christs institutions in the exercise of that power he hath given . sect. 21. 3. it is not good sense that he saith , ( speaking of the power of jurisdiction ) that though it belong habitually , and in actu primo to all , yet in a constituted church , some further authority is necessary , besides the power of order . whether this be the printers fault , or the authors , i know not : but sure , the power of order is no part of that authority by which the power of jurisdiction is exercised . 4. he leaveth us in suspence about the power of restraining the exercise of the power of jurisdiction ; for he implieth , that it may be done by the consent of the pastors , or by the appointment of the magistrate , or both . if this power that christ hath given his servants may be taken from them in its exercise , it is very fit we should know to whom the lord hath given leave to do this . i believe , and have proved that no man may do it ; but if it may be done , sure it is not thus left at randome , that it should be primi occupantis : pastors themselves cannot do it , for they have got the charge ; and they , not the bishop whom they entrust , must give an account : the magistrate may not do it , for he is no ruler of the church ; but this is the highest act of ruling the church , and of ruling and disposing of the rulers of it as he pleaseth ; and if neither may do it , both may not do it , seeing the reasons brought exclude both from any measure of power in that thing . i do not stand on the authority of camero ( which is all the proof he hath for his opinion ) cited p. 198. viz. ordinatio non fit à pastore quatenus pastor est , sed quatenus ad tempus singulare authoritatem obtinet : neither shall i strive to strain it to a sound sense ; but be satisfied with the truth , that we have upon better grounds than camero's authority established , viz. that ordination , and other acts of church-power , are done by pastors , not by virtue of any superadded power , or delegation that they have from men , above what christ hath given them in their pastoral office , but by vertue of that power he hath given to all pastors , though the conveniency of exercising it , hic & nunc , requires the concurring of some more circumstances : ergo , that other pastors joyn in ordination ; that it be not without the limits which are fixed ( for order ) for the inspection of that society of pastors , whereof such an one is a member ; or if it be without these limits , that it be not without a special call from them , who should there exercise their authority . the conclusion of our author needeth small animadversion , supposing what hath been already said : by this , saith he , we may already understand how lawful the exercise of an episcopal power may be in the church of god ( yea , by what we have said may be seen how unlawful it is ) supposing the equality of the power of order : ( but we must also suppose ( and it hath been yielded ) the equality of the power of jurisdiction , at least in actu primo ; and that may shew us the unlawfulness of episcopacy ▪ ) and how incongruously they speak , who supposing an equality in the presbyters of the church at first , do cry out that the church takes upon her the office of christ , if she delegates any to a more peculiar exercise of the power of jurisdiction : yea , we have made it appear , that they speak most congruously to the thing ; for it is christs office to give the exercise of power to such men , by giving them the office on which it followeth ; and therefore they who take it from them , and give it to them to whom he gave it not , do take his office. but it is a mincing of the matter , to talk of a more peculiar exercise of the power of jurisdiction ; when indeed , setting up of a bishop , is a laying others aside from the exercise of it at all , and suffering them to do nothing that way , but by his authority : yea , that which we have all this while disputed against , is yet less intollerable than is our case , where bishops have most absolute and lordly powers , and delegate it to whom they will , lay-men or others , and presbyters have no power at all . sect. 22. another argument he propoundeth , p. 198. from the perfection of scripture , from which it doth much derogate , to say , that in it christ hath not laid down an immutable form of church-government . this argument he almost tusheth at ; but that is easier than to answer it solidly : unto it he bringeth three answers , all which will not make up a satisfactory one . the first is the perfection of the scripture here meant , is in reference to its end ( this i grant ) which is to be an adequate rule of faith and manners , and sufficient to bring men to salvation ; which is sufficiently acknowledged to be , if all things necessary to be believed or practised , be contained in the word of god : now that which we assert , not to be fully laid down in scripture , is not pleaded to be any ways necessary , nor to be a matter of faith , but something left to the churches liberty . reply . i perceive it to be ordinary with this author ( i observed it before ) to slight with confidence that which he hath little to say against in reason . what a pittiful come off is this ? that the not determining the form of government is not against the perfection of the scripture , because it is not a thing necessary , but left to the churches liberty : what it is to beg the question , if this be not , i know not ; for the question is , whether the form be determined in scripture , or left to the churches liberty : the latter he maintaineth , we assert the former , and prove it , because otherwise the scripture were imperfect : he answereth , it doth not follow that the scripture is imperfect , because the form of government is left to the churches liberty . is this the easie dispatch of this argument which was promised ? 2. if the end of scripture be to be an adequate rule of faith and manners ; then sure , in a special way , of religious manners or practises , among which is the way of managing church-government , being a religious thing ; for we speak of government as it is peculiar to the church : hence then it must belong to its perfection to lay down this , especially seeing the scripture hath told us , that this is one of its particular ends , to direct the pastors of the church how to behave themselves in the house of god , 1 tim. 3. 15. but this it cannot do compleatly , without setting down a form of government , for general rules will not tell a pastor whether he must exercise his ruling power with others , or lay it over on my lord bishop ; ergo , the want of this form in scripture doth derogate from that perfection which our author confesseth to be in it . 3. by things necessary , i hope he doth not mean only necessary to salvation , but necessary to these particular ends propounded in the scripture , one of which is the right managing of church-government . now if all things necessary to this be laid down in scripture , there cannot want a form of government in it , for without that government cannot be managed . his second answer is , that the doing of a thing not contained in scripture , with an opinion of its necessity , doth destroy the scriptures perfection ; and so in that sense every additio perficiens is corrumpens ; such are the popish traditions ; but the doing of a thing without the opinion of its necessity doth not destroy it . reply . this is a poorer shift than the other : for 1. it is not the adding of a form of government to what is in scripture that we make unlawful , or against the scriptures sufficiency ; for sure if it be not in scripture , it must be added , seeing nature maketh it necessary : but it is the opinion of its not being in scripture that we plead against ; and therefore this answer doth not at all touch the argument , neither is the example of popish traditions to the purpose ; for we do not say that they are against scripture perfection , because they are held not to be found in it , ( for that is most true ) but because they are thought needful to be added to it . 2. it is against the perfection of scripture to say any addition to it is necessary for attaining its end ; whether that particular thing added to it be necessary , or its defect may be as well supplied by another thing of that kind ; as if any should maintain that we must have more sacraments than are in scripture , and should not think this in particular necessary , but leave it to the churches liberty , what particular sacrament should be superadded : but master stillingfleet's opinion maketh an addition necessary , viz. that there be a form of government which is not in scripture , though it leave the particular form to the churches liberty ; ergo , it is against the perfection of scripture ; and this addition being of a thing in its general nature necessary to an end that the scripture aimeth at , viz. the right governing of the church , and not being found in scripture , so much as that men may determine it , it is such an additio perficiens as the author confesseth to be corrumpens . 3. by this answer , none of the popish traditions are additions to the scripture , or imply its imperfection ; for though they be held necessary in the general , yet in particular they cannot so be held ; for either they were freely determined by the church , and so they might not have been , and therefore are not necessary , or the church was necessitated to determine them by some antecedent objective truth in the things : if so , they must be the dictates of nature , which are no additions to scripture ; wherefore this answer destroyeth it self . 4. at least , by this answer , all the popish and prelatical ceremonies , and whatsoever superstitious men can devise to bring into the worship of god , is no addition to the scripture , nor a blot upon its perfection ; for these are not held for necessary things , but indifferent , and only necessary when commanded by authority ; which necessity , i suppose , mr. stilling . will plead for to his form of government . now this consequence i hope he will not own ; wherefore he may be ashamed to own that from which it doth so clearly follow . his third answer is yet of less weight , viz. that the essentials of church-government are in scripture , not the circumstantials . reply . if he meaneth , as sure he doth , the essentials of government in its general and abstract notion , in which it is not practicable without a particular form , he saith nothing to the purpose : the scripture may be an imperfect rule for church-government , though it have these ; if he mean the essentials of a particular form , he destroyeth his own cause . now we maintain , that to the perfection of scripture there is required not only a general notion of government , but so much as is sufficient light to direct the practice of government : this cannot be without the institution of a particular form , for government otherwise is not practicable . if it be said , that the general rules in scripture about government want nothing requisite for the compleat practise of government , but the determination of circumstances , which cannot belong to scripture perfection . ans. this we deny ( if by general rules he means , as sure he doth , such as do not determine a particular form ) it is some more than a circumstance , whether pastors exercise that power christ hath given them , or commit it to a bishop . i hope it is more than a bare circumstance in civil government , whether the power be in the hand of one , or a few , or all the people , even so 't is here : yea , herein lieth the very essence of a form of government ; if this then be not found in scripture , the essentials of a form are wanting ; but a form is essential to government , considered as practicable ; ergo , some of the essentials of government are wanting . chap. v. having refuted as he supposed the general arguments , for a particular form of church-government to have been laid down in scripture ; he cometh now to particular arguments , which are brought for some one form , and many he taketh much pains to refute in this chapter , which i am confident never any did make use of to prove what he opposeth . we shall let him pass with his supposed victory over these , and only take notice of what opposeth the truth we hold , or the arguments by which it is established . i shall only note , not insist upon his large harangue , by which in the beginning of this chapter , he chargeth all who are not as sceptical about church-government as himself , with prejudice , and following custome and education , rather than truth , and being loth to quit that opinion , though false , which once they have been engaged in . to which i say nothing , but let every one search his own conscience , and see what grounds is perswasion standeth upon . i hope the sincerity of many will be able to bear them out before god , and the solid reasons they are able to produce will make them stand before men , against such reproaches of this adversary . neither shall i retaliate this his charity with the jealousies of many who fear that they who cast church-government thus loose , that the magistrate may dispose of it at his pleasure , do fetch the strength of their arguments , and the life of their perswasion , from no better topicks then design to please them who can reward this their pains , or to hold fast that which is good ( as some have spoken of their fat beneficts ) what ever side of the world be uppermost , to which end this opinion is a notable mean. i desire to judge no man , the lord will ere long judge our opinions and motives too : but this i am sure of , we have no worldly baits to allure us at this time , to plead for the divine right of presbyteral government , and if the interest of christ did not more move us than our own ; we might with much worldly advantage yield the cause . we do not insist on any of christs acts towards the apostles in calling them , sending them out either first or last , as arguments for the form of church-government ; knowing that their office being extraordinary and temporal , can be no rule for the ordinary cases of the church . wherefore i pass over all that he writeth in this chap. till p. 218. where he undertaketh to vindicate two places of scripture from determining parity or imparity in the church . the first is mat. 20. 25. to which is parallel luk. 22. 25. the kings of the gentiles exercise authority over them , and they that exercise authority over them , are called benefactors ; but ye shall not be so . though i confess , there be other places more unquestionable to our purpose ; yet i see not the weight of what he hath said against this place , being brought as an argument against imparity . his answer is made up of two , first , he asserteth , and solidly proveth against papists , that it is not the abuse of power that is here forbidden , but that the power it self spoken of is forbidden , as incompetent to church-officers ; his proofs for this i need not repeat , i accept it of him as a concession . secondly , he saith it is only civil power that is here forbidden ; and so it doth not make against imparity in church-officers , reply . he keepeth his wonted way here , which is to take much pains , to prove what is least in debate with the adversaries he dealeth with : we do not question but the power it self , not the abuse of it is here spoken against : but that it is civil power only we question ; and that he hath not spent one word to prove . we affirm that christ is here making a difference between his apostles and civil governors in this ; that one of them should not have authority over another , as it is among rulers of states and kingdoms ; and so that there should be no imparity of power among them ; to prove this , i borrow the 3d reason by which mr. still . militateth against the abuse of power being here meant , viz. this only can answer the scope of the apostles contention , which was about primacy . the sons of zebedee would have been set over the rest , mat. 20. and their strife was , which should be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pro 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( so drusius cited by leigh crit. sac. ) that is , who should be pope over the rest : now , though we deny not but theirs might be upon a civil and coactive power , they dreaming of an earthly kingdome of christ , yet sure , this was neither mainly nor only in their design : not only , because they could not but know that christs kingdome , in which they were to be officers , should be spiritual , and conversant about the things of another life though , they thought it might be worldly to , and therefore it could not be ; but they designed a supremacy in that respect also , not mainly , both because they could not but know that their main work both in teaching and ruling , was to be about the things of eternity : as also it is evident from luk. 22. 24. that their contention was about supremacy in a power that then they had begun to be partakers of , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : but they knew very well that yet they had not civil power : seeing then they contended about ecclesiastical supremacy , and christs answer is suted to their intention , and doth wholly discharge that power whereof it speaketh : the first of which i have proved ; the two latter mr. still . hath confessed : it followeth , that christ doth here forbid all superiority of the apostles , one over another : so that not only christ had not set one over the rest , but he will not permit themselves to do it if they would : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is a simple forbidding of it . hence i inferre the argument to our purpose thus , if the apostles who had received equal power from christ , might not delegate that power to one whom they might set up as chief ; then presbyters may not do this neither , ergo imparity of presbyters is unlawful . the consequence is evident , the antecedent i prove from parity of reason : it is not immaginable that presbyters may set one of themselves over themselves : and that bishops may not do the like , and apostles the like ; seeing order may require the one as well as the other . yea , secondly , if there be a disparity of reason it maketh much for us , for sure the apostles had more liberty of managing that power , they had received from christ , by prudence , than pastors now have ; wherefore they might far rather restrain the exercise of it in themselves , if they saw cause , than we may do . 3. i hope it will not be denied , that what is here said to the apostles is not said to them as apostles ; but as officers of the church , who have received the same power from christ : that it is no temporary , but an abiding precept : and therefore if it forbid superiority among the apostles , so doth it among presbyters , mr. still . p. 220. objecteth thus ; `this place doth no waies imply a prohibition of all inequality among governours of the church ; for then the apostles power over ordinary pastors should be forbidden . ans. concedo totum : we also grant inequality among pastors and elders . but that which we plead is , that here is forbidden an inequality among them who are of the same order : that when christ hath given men the same power and office , as he did to the apostles ; they may not usurp power one over another , nor take it though others would give it them . this is clearly proved from what hath been said . and further , it may be hence also concluded , that the inequality which is among church-officers ought not to be such as is among the governours of the world , where a single person may have his under-officers at his command : but that inequality must be of one order above another in place and rank , both which do concur jointly to the ruling of the church ; and thus also episcopacy is here made unlawful . that pride and ambition is here forbidden , i readily grant him : but that these are not only forbidden , is clear from what hath been said . sect. 2. the next place that he considereth is mat. 18. 15 , 16 , 17. where , after private admonition is used in vain , we are commanded to tell the church , and they who do not hear the church , are to be counted as heathens and publicans . that which he first bringeth for an answer to this place is , that because men of all opinions about church-government make use of it to establish their opinions , therefore no argument may be drawn from it for any opinion . this unhappy way of reasoning i have met with before and insist not now on it . it is the devils way , i perceive , to raise contentions about truth among some ; and having done this , to tempt others by these contentions to schism and slighting of truth . but we must not quit the light held forth in this scripture , because men have darkened it , by their raising dust about it : let us search the more soberly and carefully , not cast away the truth for this . yet for all divers opinions that have been broached about this place , mr. stilling . hath a new one of his own , which i shall briefly examine . the difficulty of the place ( he saith well ) lyeth in these two . 1. what are the offences here spoken of . 2. what is the church mentioned . for the first , he asserteth ( with more confidence than strength of reason , when he saith , it is evident to any unprejudicated mind , ) that the matters are not of scandal ; but of private offence and injurie : this he proveth p. 222. ( his arguments we shall consider after . ) for the church , he proposeth at length the erastian opinion , as very plausible : yet at last rejecteth it p. 224 , 225. and returns to the offences p. 226. which though he makes to be private differences and quarrels ; yet he will not have them to be law-suits , nor civil causes ; but such differences as respect persons , and not things . and then he determineth p. 227. that the church is not here any juridical court acting by authority ; but a select company , who by arbitration may compose and end the difference : and so concludeth p. 228. that here is nothing about church-government ; though by analogie some things about it may be hence drawn . this is the sum of this opinion , which i shall first refute and then consider his grounds for it . sect. 3. and first of all i cannot but wonder that this learned author should with so much cofidence deny this place to speak of church-government ; and not say something in answer to the many arguments for establishing a form of government , which are drawn from it by many learned men ; as gillespy in his aarons rod. rutherford in his jus divin reg. eccles. beza de excom . & presbyt . cawdry of church-reformation ; and other presbyterians : beside many authors of other judgments . what ? are all their arguments unworthy to be taken notice of , and easily blown away with mr. still . his bare assertion ? for what he saith of the matters of offence spoken of in this place , he seemeth to aim at a new opinion , but i cannot see wherein it differeth from what the erastians hold , save in its obscurity : for when he hath with them , made them to be no scandals , nor sins against god , but private injuries against our neighbours , he will not have them to be civil causes , or law-suits ; but such differences as respect persons , not things . what these can be i cannot understand , for what wrong can i do to my neighbour besides scandalising him by sin against god , for which he may not sue me at law ? if he mean not matters of money or meum & tuum , but other injuries against ones person , as beating , reproaches , slanders &c. ( as i guess he doth , so far as i can see his opinion through the midst of his words ) these are yet civil causes , and matters of law-suit : and this is the one part of what the erastians here understand : neither do i see any reason for understanding these here , and not other private injuries , as the erastians do : for is it imaginable that christ would prescribe this course for redress of wrongs in our own persons and names , and not also for wrongs in our estates ? but it may be he meaneth that though the injuries here meant , be in matters civil ; yet the design of the place is not to prescribe a way of making up the injury , but of taking away the animosities , and quarrels that these injuries breed among christians ; but this cannot hold ; for sure the best way of allaying the animosities that arise about injuries done by one to another , must be by determining what is the due of each , and who doth , and who sustaineth the wrong , and so making reparation of the injury done . we must not then think that christ hath appointed one course for repairing the wrong ; and another for taking away contention about it : but it is his will that christians in such cases , either let their wrongs be judged by the arbitration of friends ; or if that cannot be , by that law : and whethersoever of these waies the matter be determined ; that they should acquiesce , and not contend any more . besides this , when i receive a private injurie from another , it is my duty to lay aside all grudge and animosity against him , which if i be willing to do , why should the matter be brought before others , or to the church ? if i be not willing to do it , it is not like that i will bring it thus to others , who may persuade me to lay aside animosity against him . i cannot understand how i can bring a matter of private wrong to be judged by others , except it be in reference to the getting of some reparation of that wherein i conceive my self to be wronged . if he mean that i should bring the matter before others , not that my animosity may be laid aside ( that being my duty without such adoe ) but that they may persuade him who hath wronged me to lay aside his grudg , and be reconciled to me : sure this cannot be the scope of the place , both because christ giveth another rule in that case , which will sooner attain that end , viz. forgive him , lu. 17. 3. and indeed it is a more compendious way to allay his fury , to carry it dutifully , friendly and kindly to him , than to convent him before others . also because it is a strange reflection of the sence of the expression , trespass against thee i. e. refuse to be reconciled to thee : sure there is no warrant in scripture or reason from the notation of the word , thus to expound it . and besides all this , this exposition destroys the authors opinion , viz. that this place is not meant of scandals ; for when one hath wronged me , and i am willing to forgive him and be at peace with him , and he refuseth to be reconciled to me ; this is a sin against god , and a scandal of an high nature . now why the place should be meant of taking away this sort of scandal and no other ( seeing other scandals also are sins against the scandalized , as is clear 1 cor. 8. 12. ) i think it is hard to conjecture except mr. still . must say so to make up the opinion that he intendeth to defend . sect. 4. but i shall now prove that this place speaketh purposely of scandals , or sins against god , whereby the consciences of others are offended ; and not of private injuries . and that briefly because this is largely and fully performed by all our authors who write against erastians . 2. our lord had spent the former part of the chapter about scandals , especially in pressing your shunning to give offence , and in shewing the danger of offences ; both to the offended , and especially to the offender , vers . 7. now in all this discourse he had said nothing of the means of taking away of scandals : wherefore seeing he joyneth these words we dispute about , to the former discourse of scandal ; it may be out of question that he is here laying down that way of removing these scandals when they should arise in his church , that the evils he had spoken of may not ensue upon them . 2. the design of this remedy here prescribed is to gain the faulty person : now this expression of gaining men from that which is evil , is in scripture only used in reference to sins against god , which are apt to destroy men , and whereby they are lost . 3. this evil from which the person is to be gained , is sin or scandal . if it be said that it is gaining of a brother , when he is persuaded to lay aside animosity against a brother , and to be reconciled to him : this is true only and so far as such animosity is sin : for on no other account , freeing of one from it can be called gaining him in scripture-phrase ; and if there animosities be here spoken of only as they are scandals , then the scope of the place is to redress scandals ; for à quatenus ad omne valet consequentia . 3. to sin against a brother is ( in the phrase of the new testament ) mainly , if not only , to wrong his conscience or spiritual estate by scandal . 1 cor. 8. 12. or to be guilty of sin against god in his sight or conscience luk. 15. 18 , 21. so luk. 17. 3 , 4. neither can any instance be brought where it signifies a private injury as such ; therefore it must be meant of scandal . 4. in redressing of private injuries in a charitable way , it is not usual to lead witnesses : but these belong to a judicial proceeding ; but here the matter is to be established by witnesses , ergo it is a matter not to be transacted in such a way as this author would have these private injuries . 5. it is unimaginable that christ would have us count our brother a heathen or a publican , and would have him bound in heaven for persisting in a fact that either is no sin against god , or which is not considered as a sin against god : doth the holy ghost any where speak so of private injuries , considered as such ? no sure ; but if private injuries are to be thus noted with censure by god and men , it is under the notion of heinous sins as they offend god and scandalize his people , and if so : then scandals are here meant ; for if such injuries be here spoken of for that which is common to other scandals , and especially private injuries not particularly mentioned , but set down under the general name of sin ; what a boldness is it to exclude other sins , and make these only to be here spoken of ? sect. 5. next , i come to consider his notion about the church , to which these offences must at last be brought for remedy : it is , saith he , no juridical court , but a select company called together by the party offended , who by arbitration may compose and end the difference . against this conceit i bring these reasons : 1. this company is to be called together by the offended party ; for the text carrieth the whole managing of the business to be by him ; and it is very like the stubborn offender will not be active in this : now , is this a way that our lord would prescribe for taking away the distemper of a galled mind , that his adversary ( so the stubborn offender looketh upon the other ) should chuse the persons before whom he is to be convented , and who should judg him ? this i cannot be induced to believe , except i see more proof of it than our author 's bare saying it is so . 2. we must conceive that these three steps of proceeding here prescribed , have some notable difference one from another , and are remedies of different vertues and operations applyed to this stubborn disease . now the first step is secret admonition : the second is private and charitable , not judicial ; the third then must be different from both : which i cannot conceive how it is , if it be not authoritative . in this authors opinion , it is no more but this , when two or three friends cannot accommodate the matter , then take a few more , having no more but the same power the former two or three had : now what great influence can 5 , or 6 , or 10 have to persuade a stiff offender , more than 2 or or 3 using the same motives ? 't is not to be imagined that the difference can be such as christ intendeth when he prescribeth this as a remedy of that evil the other could not cure . 3. when christ is here prescribing a cure for offences which may fall out among his people , and is so exact in describing all the steps of it and final result thereof ; we must conceive that his last cure will be such as will effectually root out that evil so , as , that it do not any more hurt his church or those who are harmed by it . now if the last mean be only arbitration , and no juridical authoritative act , this end can never be attained : for neither is the stubborn offender gained , nor is he taken away that he may not the same way trouble the other party as before . what great matter is gained if the wilful party will not hear this advising church our author dreameth of ? he is still a church-member , enjoying the publick fellowship of the people of god , for all that these arbitrators can do : and suppose some do withdraw private intimacy with them , yet we cannot think that all are obliged to it by the authority of private arbitrators declaring him stubborn , when all do not know the causes which made them so determine , nor the proofs that did convince them of the truth of what was alledged against him . it is then evident that this last remedy of the miscarriage ( be what it will ) of a stubborn offender which christ here prescribeth , is an authoritative act , and therefore the church here is no company of private men for arbitration . 4. though we grant that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth any company called together , yet here it must be of more restricted signification ; and must needs signify a company called out of the world by the gospel to worship god , and to serve him in the managing of his affairs and institutions ; which is not applicable to a company of arbitrators called by a man , not by the gospel , to agree contending parties , which is a work of duty common to all the world , and none of the special works of the church as distinguished from other societies . now that the word church must be thus understood , and not as mr. stilling . would have it , i prove 2dly ; it is constantly so used by the writers of holy scripture ; neither can an instance be brought in all the new testament where any ever put ecclesia for a company met about any business , save that the town-clerk of ephesus used it otherwise , acts 19. 39. and luke , speaking of him in his own dialect , useth it as he did , ver . 40. but when christ here speaketh of a church to which he sendeth his offended people by a standing law for the redress of their grievances , we must certainly conceive that he will have them by the church , to understand that which is ordinarily known by that name in the new testament ; for how should they know the meaning of an ambiguous word , but by the constant use of it in the scripture ? 2. the demonstrative article added in the greek putteth the matter beyond all question , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth a particularly designed church , which they to whom it is said , have pointed out unto them : not any church , this or that , an individuum vagum , or such a church as themselves may particularize or pitch upon : it is not [ a ] church , but [ the ] church , now a company of arbitrators chosen ad libitum by the grieved party , are not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 [ the ] church particularly , as individuum determinatum designed by christ ; they are at best but [ a ] church , and should be here designed only confusè , or vage , huic aut illi ecclesiae , which the word cannot bear . now if we take it for a ruling-church , or whatever church in scripture-sense , it is here determined what church we should bring the matter to , viz. that particular church we live in ( at least in prima instantia ) and it is not left to our liberty to chuse what church of many particulars we will complain unto . or if we take the article here prefixed to denote the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of that church here spoken of , and to determine the word to its famosius significatum ; it hath the same strength of an argument : for , not a company of private arbitrators , but christians , or their representatives met for the worship of god , or administration of the affairs of his house , are that church . sect. 6. i come now to examine what mr. stilling . hath to say against this interpretation of the place , or for that which himself hath devised . p. 222. he undertaketh to prove that the offence here spoken of is not any scandal or sin against god , but a private injury . his arguments are , 1. from the parallel place , luke 17. 3. if thy brother trespass againts thee , rebuke him ; and if he repent , forgive him ; this is private injury , because a private brother may forgive it , which is not in his power were it a scandal to the whole church , unless we make every private person to excommunicate and release one another . answ. that luke 17. 3 , 4. is parallel to matth. 18. 15 , 16 , 17. i do not question ; and indeed all the commentators that i have met with , make them relate to the same passage of christs preaching : but this ( if we may lay any weight on the judgment of men ) doth make much against mr. still . for he understandeth matth. 18. not of scandals , but of the bare injury , so then must this place also , but the text and context both do make it evident , as i conceive , that this place , is not meant of private injuries ( but in so far as they are scandals ) but of scandalous sins : i say the context doth prove it ; because our lord is there speaking of scandals : it is the very purpose that he is upon ver . 1 , 2. the text also proveth it , for the first remedy to be applyed to this evil , is rebuke : which is known to be a more proper remedy for scandal than private wrong : and then , the fruit of this remedy , repentance , doth relate to scandals rather than to private wrongs . neither doth it follow that it is private injury , because a private person may forgive it ; for we must understand it of private scandal , not such as is publick , and a scandal to the whole church , as mr. still . supposeth . now when the offender repenteth upon private rebuke , the rebuker may forgive him 3 ways : 1. by not charging him any more with guiltiness , but looking on him , as one whom the lord hath pardoned . that this is called forgiveness in scripture , is clear , 2 cor. 2. 7 , 10. where the whole church is commanded thus to forgive the excommunicated man who had repented . 2. by exercising that christian familiar love toward him , which we ought not to exercise towaad them who live in sin . 3. by forbearing to bring the matter to any more publick hearing , which , had not the party repented , had been his duty . now this giveth not a power of excommunicating and releasing to a private person ; but only a power of the prudent use of our own charity . his second answer is the same , only built on another scripture , matth. 18. 20. where christ in answer to peter's question , bids us forgive our brother as oft as he repenteth . the answer is also the same ; for we must forgive a scandalous brother ( in the way but now laid down ) as oft as he repenteth ; and not bring him to publick rebuke , but in case of obstinacy . his 3d. argument is this , if this be matter of scandal that is here spoken of ; then might a matter of scandal be brought before the church when there is no way to decide it , there being but one privy to it , who is the accuser , he affirmeth , and the offender denyeth . answ. 1. doth not this same inconvenience follow if the matter be a private injury ? may there not in that case be no way for the arbitrators to decide the matter , the offender denying , and the injured party affirming , and that where himself is the party ? the objecter then is as much obliged to answer this argument as we are . but 2dly , this inconvenience is easily avoided thus : if the grieved person be the only witness of the fact , and the offender deny the fact , it ought not to come before the church , neither is this injunction to be understood of such cases : but where either the fact is known to more than one ( for even so it may be a private and no publick offence ) or where the offender doth not deny the fact ; but denyeth that it is wrong : in that case , first two or three , then the whole church must endeavour to convince him . it is a bad consequence ; some works of darkness , for want of witness , cannot be decided by the church ; ergo , we are not commanded to bring scandals before the church . that which he addeth p. 223. that christ here speaketh as to an ordinary case , and in allusion to what was then in use among the jews ; which was to reprove one another , commanded lev. 19. 17. and for neglect of which , jerusalem was thought to be destroyed by r. chamna . this i say , is nothing to the purpose ; for i suppose these reproofs , lev. 19. 17. and which are mentioned by that rabby , were not only for private injuries , but mainly for sin against god : wherefore this consideration maketh not a little against the design for which it was brought . p. 224. he will not have the church here spoken of to be the christian church ; because , saith he , christ is speaking to a present case , and layeth down a present remedy . now if he lay down rules for governing his church ; this could not be , because there were yet no ecclesiastical courts for them to appeal to : if then the case had presently fallen out , they were left without a redress , having no church to tell it unto . ans. it cannot be proved that christ here layeth down rules for a case presently practicable , more than he doth when he impowereth his apostles , and chargeth them concerning their work , matth. 16. 19. john 20. 23. mal. 28. 19. and yet will have them to delay a while before they should put all that power in act . luke 24. 49. and indeed we have far better cause to think that he is telling his people what to do in the after and ordinary times of his church , than what they should do in that present and extraordinary case , when the church was not yet framed , and when they had himself personably to go to for direction . 2dly , however we maintain that this rule , as it serveth for our times , so might it serve for that time in which it was spoken : for if the case had then fallen out , though there were not the ordinary ecclesiastical courts to go to , that now ought to be , yet there wanted not a visible church-power residing in the person of christ , and after in the apostles , to whom did succeed the ordinary judicatures : so that the offended party wanted never a church to make his complaint unto . i do not say that [ tell the church ] doth directly signifie any other to which the complaint was to be made , but the ordinary guides of the church ; for our lord accommodateth his terms he useth to the ordinary cases in which this law was to take place ; but by analogie , it is applicable to any who in extraordinary cases act the part of the ordinary guides of the church . sect. 7. i agree to the argument of mr. gillespy , cited by the author , that unless we understand the word church as usually , it would be no easie matter to know what christ here meaneth by the church ; for seeing this was to be a standing law in all ages , 't is not imaginable that the lord would have us otherwise understand the terms of it than they are ordinarily used in the bible , which he intended should constantly be in his peoples hands . neither is that of any weight which our author opposeth to this ; that such as so argue would do well to consider , how those to whom christ spake , should apprehend his meaning , if he spake in a sense they never heard of before . we consider that they may easily understand christs words , because he had often before spoken to them of the gospel-church that was to be set up , and even in this very term of a church , as matth. 16. 19. and frequently under the notion of the kingdom of heaven ; which they might easily apprehend to be meant by the church . wherefore the author did not well consider what he said , when he supposed this language to be unknown to the disciples . hence all that he saith of the way of understanding scripture in the sence of the words then common , is not to the purpose ; for , christ had made this sense common among them . neither must we understand the word as it was then commonly apprehend among the jews , but as it was apprehended among christs ordinary hearers , who were in expectation of another church , and another way of government in it to be set up , than was then among the jews . i find no more in the author that is argumentative either against our opinion of this text , or for his own . he concludeth p. 228. that this place , though it speaks not of church-government , yet it may have some influence on it by way of analogy , viz. in proving , 1. gradual appeals , 2. church-censures , 3. the lawfulness of excommunication . this he yieldeth at least , that something of church-government may be inferred from this place : then ex concessis , it is not so impertinent to this purpose as he would have made us believe in the beginning of this chapter . sect. 8. but let us see if we can draw any more out of it than he will yield us . we have already proved it to be directly meant of church-government , and to give rules for the right managing of it : now i assert , that it doth implicitly determine the form of church-government , viz. that it ought to be by parity , not episcopacy ; which i thus make out : the first authority before which the complaint of the grieved party is to be brought , is the church , ( and it is also the last : ) but if the church were governed by bishops , this should not be , ergo , the church ought not to be governed by bishops . the major is clear ; for after secret and private admonition ( which are not authoritative ) immediately succeedeth [ tell the church : ] sure this church must be that authority which we must go to prima instantia , and also that which must finally decide the matter ; seeing excommunication doth immediately so low upon disobliging this authority . the minor i prove thus : in the episcopal way , the complaint must be brought to the bishop or to his delegate or delegates ( which is all one as to the matter of authority ) and he must be the last that must determine , and on disobedience to him followeth excommunication : but the bishop is not the church , ergo , in the episcopal way complaints cannot be made to the church , nor doth the church finally decide the matter . the minor of this last syllogism is evident ; for neither the na●ure of the word , nor scripture-use will bear , that one man shall be called the church . if it be said that episcopacy be so modelled , as the bishop with the presbyter may judg of the offence , and they may well be called the church . answ. in that case , either the presbyters have a decisive vote as well as the bishop , or they be only his advisers . in the first case the bishop is only a praeses : which is not that episcopacy pleaded against , though we judg it inconvenient . in the 2d , the bishop is the only power , and therefore there is no such church as here meant , for the church here is a church cloathed with authority , whom the party ought to hear , i. e. obey , and for contumacy against which he is excommunicated : but the bishop and his counsel is not such a church ; for his counsel hath no authority , and himself cannot make a church ; and therefore both taken together , make no church having authority . chap. vi. here mr. stilling . doth undertake to lay aside apostolical practice from being a pattern for us in the matter of church-government ; what success he hath in this attempt we now examine . his two main scopes in this chapter , are , that it cannot be known what the practice of the apostles was in this ; and that if it were known , it is no binding example to us ; which desperate assertions do , not a little , reflect upon the scripture and tend to the casting loose the government of the church . the latter of them i have spoken to before , and purpose to examine what he saith for it . concerning the former , i shall premise but this to our trying of his proofs , that it is very strange the spirit of god in scripture hath written so much of their practice , both historically , and implied it in doctrinal assertions and precepts , if for all this we cannot know what it was ; which if it do not accuse the scripture-relation of things of great imperfection , i know nothing : for i am sure the scripture doth purposely set down much of their practice , both in preaching , administration of sacraments , ordination of officers , directing these officers in their behaviour in the house of god , censures and other parts of government : if yet we cannot know by scripture what was their way in ruling ; the account given of these things must be very imperfect . i believe it would be imputed to any writer of the history of a church , if out of his history could not be gathered what was the government of that church : shall we then think that the sacred writers , who have undertaken to give us an account of the acts of the apostles , are so deficient ? especially many of the writings of the apostles themselves being added by the same spirit ; out of which much may be gathered to this purpose . but let us hear how he makes out this his strange opinion . i insist not on what he writeth of the apostles commission ; i confess the form of government is not expressed in it : though we have ground to think , that when christ chargeth them to teach his people to observe all he commanded them , matth. 28. 20. that it was his will that they should not leave so great a matter as is the form of church-government to mens will ; but that his institution should be observed in this : especially seeing he spent 40 days with them before his ascension , acts 1. 3. speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of god , that is the gospel-church : it is hard to think that among all his instructions to them then , he told them nothing of his will about the way of governing his church . neither do i take notice of his large discourse about the division of provinces among the apostles : nor of his too true observation , that looking on ancient practice through the glass of our own customs , hath bred many mistakes : only i wonder at his bringing that for an instance , that lay-elders are proved from the name presbyters : i believe there was never any that used such an argument , seeing the name is common to them and preaching-elders . he will find stronger arguments than this for that order of church-officers , if he please to read the assertors of it . sect. 2. for clearing what was apostolical practice he layeth down this as a foundation , p. 239 , &c. that the apostles in the forming churches did observe the custom of the jewish synagogue . about this notion he spendeth a huge deal of pains , as if the strength of his cause lay here ; but to what purpose it is , except to shew his reading and skill in antiquity , i know not . doth it follow , the apostles imitated the jews in the matter of church-government , ergo , we are not obliged to imitate the apostles ? i should think that the contrary consequence might rather be inferred ; but whatever be of that , this we are sure of , that whether there was any coincidency or similitude between the apostolical and the jewish way , or not ; whether the apostles in what they did had an eye at the jewish example , or not : they were acted by an infallible spirit , which did both guide them unerringly , and warrant them unquestionably to do what they did in the management of church-government , so that it is not the occasion of their taking such or such a way that we are to look to , but the morality of it , that should determine us to follow it , because we know it is the will of christ. wherefore i might pass without any more notice all that he writeth in many sheets of the modelling the government of the church by that of the synagogue . yet for further clearing the matter , i shall lay down a few considerations . sect. 3. first , i take notice how inconsistent this author is with himself in this point ; for p. 322. he asserteth , that the apostles did not observe ( in probability ) one fixed course of setling the government of churches , but setled it according to the several circumstances of places and persons which they had to deal with . i hope he will not deny , but the jewish way of government was one and the same every where : how then did the apostles imitate that , if they were so various in their setling of government ? sure if they did not stick to one form , they did not stick to the jewish form . but i perceive he would fain say any thing that might cast church-government at an uncertainty ; however the ways he taketh to this end , do clash one with another . 2. all this pains he taketh , tendeth either to prove nothing , or to prove that which himself will not own : for suppose that he had evinced that the apostles did imitate the jews in their church-administrations : if any thing follow , it must be this , that these things which were done by the apostles on such an account are not now binding , but are indifferent and determinable by men : and that as the apostles had their liberty in imitating the jews , or not , so we have our liberty in imitating the apostles , or not , in them . now this i am sure he dare not own in most of these things which he maketh to have been taken up from the jewish customs : for he speaketh , p. 240. of christs taking many rites of the lords supper from the postcoenium among the jews , and the use of baptism from the baptisms used in initiating proselytes , and excommunication from their putting out of the synagogue ; and afterward he maketh building of churches , to be taken from the synagogues : publick reading of the scripture , and pastors from the archisynagogi : ordination from that used among the jews : will then mr. stilling . say that all these are now indifferent . that baptism , excommunication , pastors , nay ordination are no institutions of christ ; and that as the apostles took them from the jews ad placitum ; so we may take them from the apostles , or leave them , as we list . sure he will not say it : and if he saith not this , he saith nothing , but magno conatu nihil agit : parturiunt montes : nascetur ridiculus mus . 3. it is needful to distinguish the things that the apostles did by imitation take from the jews , by confounding of which mr. stilling . hath mired himself and his reader too . there are 1. somethings that are the dictates of nature and reason : as that publick assembling be ordinarily in some one convenient place : that in a society there be rulers and ruled : that where many rule they meet together for that end : that in their meeting one preside , to avoid confusion , &c. 2. there are other things which be the commandments of god concerning his moral worship ; as that prayers , praises , pulick reading of his word , with opening of it , that his people may know his will , be performed in the solemn meetings of his people . 3. god's ceremonial worship , which consisteth in the observance of rights sacred , or peculiar to religion , without which all that worship of god might well be performed , which is , and hath been of moral and perpetual obligation . 4. such things as receive their usefulness and fitness from custom : as words , habits , gestures , &c. now for the first two sorts , though there was co-inciding in them , between the jewish and apostolical way ( and indeed it could not be otherwise , nature and what is of moral obligation being the same unto all ) yet that the apostles were determined in these by the jewish example , we deny . for the 3d , it is clear , that the apostles used no such things with the jewish church , except a few for a time to avoid scandal , acts 15. 28. 29. yea , they are declared unlawful to be used , gal. 4. 9 , 10. and 5. 1 , 2. col. 2. 16 , 17. which i am elswhere to shew more at length . the 4th sort of things we hold to be in themselves indifferent , and determinable by the laudable custom of every place . neither do we deny the apostles to have in many of these imitated the jewish church ; and no wonder , because they lived among them . now church-government having in it some things of all these sorts , it is clear from what hath been said , how far we confess the apostles to have followed the jews in it ; and how far not . that wherein we are likest to controvert with mr. still . is , about things of the third sort , which i must yet distinguish : they were either such as the lord had commanded to the jews , or such as they without his command did take up . the former , he doth not alledg that the apostles followed the jews in . the latter he asserteth , and we deny it ; and shall anon hear what he bringeth for his assertion . but for further clearing this and the whole matter , i lay down a fourth consideration , viz. to make it out , that the apostles did imitate the jews , there are two things required . 1. to shew the co-incidency of their practice . 2. to shew that this co-incidency did proceed from a design of conformity , viz. that the apostles were determined in such things by the jewish example : for the former without the other is no imitation , because in imitation , the former practice must have some influence on that which followeth ; such as the exemplary cause hath on the exemplatum . now if the apostles did ( in some of these ) the same things with the jewish church , only accidentally , or upon other motives ; and did not ( as mr. stilling . phraseth it ) copy out the jewish way of government , 't is no imitating of them . sect. 4. from what hath been said , it will be easie to maintain against mr. stilling . large discourse , that the apostles did not in the government of the church imitate the jewish synagogue as their pattern ; i shall touch such things in his discourse as seem to prove it . and 1. i take notice of that which was occasionally touched before , p. 240 , viz. that christ delighted to take up the received practices among the jews , as the postcoenium he turned to the lords supper , baptism of proselytes , imitated to christian baptism , casting out of the synagogue to excommunication . and this he saith he did with rites , not which were originally founded on moses's law ; but which were brought in by a confederate discipline among themselves . this , saith he , hath been abundantly manifested by many learned men ; of which he cited some in his margin . i confess , many learned men , especially such as have spent their pains in critical learning , have done but bad service to christ and his institutions , while to serve their phoenomena , and make their critical conjectures the more plausible , they have made mens devices like maezentius his bed to curtail or stretch out christs institutions by them at their pleasure . but the authority of such men , though never so learned , shall not perswade me ( what their reasons may do i say not , till i hear and consider them ) to think that christ had such delight in mens inventions in the worship of god , as to make them the pattern of his gospel-institutions ; and that rather than the ceremonies , which of old were of divine authority : shall we think that he who condemneth mens doctrines in gods worship , as vain , mal. 15. 9. and especially in that chapter , condemneth a ceremony brought in by confederate discipline , which in it self was as harmless as any of these mentioned , viz. often washing : shall we think , i say , that he had such pleasure in these things ? sure he cannot be so unlike himself . neither i am sure can the assertors of this paradox , shew any such difference between that ceremony and these here instanced , as that christ should hate the one , and delight in the other . for that often alledged , that the pharisees placed much religion in their often washings ( besides that the thing simply , not their opinion , is condemned in the place cited ) it cannot be made out , that they placed more religion in this , than they did in their postcoenium , washing of proselytes , &c. for further answer to this assertion of our authors , i add , that supposing christ did make his institutions to consist of some material acts , like to these of the jewish uncommanded observations ( for this is the furthest , that the authors consideration can pretend to prove ) it doth not follow that he approved of these inventions : neither that we may mould the affairs of the church by our reason and skill without scripture ; and that for these reasons : 1. from christs wisdom . 2. from his authority which did warrant him to do such things , and doth not make it lawful for the church now to do them . 1. i say , from his wisdom : he is an able and competent judg of what is suted to gospel-worship , and what not : and therefore of these unwarranted observations in use among the jews , he could chuse what was fittest for his designs ( the things being indifferent in themselves ) and appoint them in his church : we cannot so well judg of the fitness of a thing to his design in the gospel-model of affairs ; and therefore must not take such liberty in doing what man hath done without a special institution of christ. moreover , he knew well how in the depth of his wisdom to make such a choice in his institutions serve unto two great ends , viz. the gaining of the jews , by making as little diffrrence between the old way ( to which they were wedded ) and the new gospel-way , as could be : and the adorning of his gospel-service with most fit and excellent ceremonies : this cannot be pretended for devices of men in gods worship , whether found out by themselves , or wherein they imitate others . 2. for his authority , however these observations being uncommanded were on that account unlawful to the jews ; yet the things materially considered being indifferent , and christ having absolute authority to institute particulars in his church , he might well chuse these , and seal them with his authority , and so make them both lawful and duty to us : this no man can do ; they must have his command for institution ; and not make them by their own authority . wherefore christ taking the jewish customs for patterns to his institutions ( if he did so ) maketh nothing for men's setting up their institutions in the church ; or for the indifferency of things belonging peculiarly to the church . sect. 5. that which he saith ibid : maketh little to his purpose , viz. that even when god did determine the positives of worship , he left the morals to the wisdom and discretion of his people : which he instanceth in building and ruling synagogues . ans. this is true of such things as are of common concernment to religion and other actions ; we also allow such parts of church-government to be managed by christian prudence : his instance proveth no more ; for we permit also the building of churches to prudence . but the question is about things proper to the church as it is a religious society : these things we deny to have been left to prudence among the jews , or to be now so left among christians . i cannot yield to what he seemeth to aim at , when he saith , that though the reason of erecting synagogues was builded on a command , viz. of having holy convocations , yet they were not built for a long time after they came to the land : i cannot think that the building of synagogues was indifferent though the place and manner was : for the same command that requireth holy convocations , requireth that there be a place fit for them . if they were at first long of building , it was either from some impediment , or from inexcusable negligence . much less do i agree to what followeth , viz. although moses requireth the duty of assembling , yet he prescribes no orders for the place of meeting , nor for the manner of spending these dayes in gods service , nor for the persons who were to superintend the publick work . ans. the first of these , as to the circumstances of it , is left to prudence , it being meerly a natural circumstance of worship , the second for substance is in the law , viz. what duties they should spend the day with , viz. sacrificing in the temple , reading the law , and teaching the people in other places : the natural circumstances of this are also left to prudence . the third is falsly asserted : are not the levites appointed to superintend that work when they are made the publick teachers of the people ? wherefore all this maketh nothing for his design , viz. that the jewish church-government was left to prudence , and that the christian should be so . their reading of the law we approve ; but deny it to have been voluntary but commanded ; their curious dividing of it , and leaving out some of it we disprove , as the fruit of the superstitions of the latter ages of that church : and indeed it may be compared with the frame of our service-book , though it was not so bad by far . i insist not on his guesses about the government of synagogues , which he taketh much pains to make appear to be like the government in the apostolick church , that he might make us believe , that this was taken from that . i only observe that the product of all his pains is not operae pretium : both because of the uncertainty of the matter of fact , that there were such officers so employed in the synagogues : as also the far off resemblances that are between them and officers in the christian church ; as any attentive reader may observe . and so i pass to p. 253. where he sheweth how far the apostles in forming christian churches did follow the jewish pattern . sect. 6. i smile indeed to consider how mr. still . magnifies this his notion , and judgeth this birth of his own brain , as that which with his improvement ( such as it hath yet received from no other ) will be more conducible than any he knoweth to the happy end of composing our differences about church-government . i hope i have said as much of this notion . p. 186. &c. as will make it to be of less esteem with unbyassed men . i profess i cannot yet understand , for all that i have meet with in this author about it , how this notion should have any such effect , for the question is not what pattern the apostles followed , so much , as whether what they did was the institution of christ , and whether we ought to follow them as our pattern : and to the determining of this i see very little or no use of this notion which he so much crieth up . but to make it get entertainment he taketh much pains . first , he promiseth some general considerations to make it probable : and sheweth next how the apostles did imitate the synagogue in 4 particulars . let us hear what probability it getteth from his considerations . the 1 is , that christ and his disciples , and christians afterward went under the name of jews ; that they kept communion with the jews , and observed their customes , not only which were commanded of god , but which they had taken up themselves , if they were not contrary to gods commands . here are 3 or 4 considerations jumbled together , some of which are false , others true , but prove not the point . i shall answer them more distinctly than he hath set them down . and first for the name , it is no wonder they were called jews , for they were so by nation : if at any time they owned themselves as of the jewish religion , that proveth nothing ; for this they might do , because the jewish religion , as commanded of god , was the same in substance with the christian , see act. 26. 22. it doth not from this follow that there were the same administrations in the jewish and christian-church . and if in after-times the jews and christians were both reckoned as one body by the heathens ( for which he bringeth some proof p. 255. and 256. ) yet it doth not follow , which he there inferreth , viz. that they observed the same rites and customes ▪ for this mistake of the heathens did proceed partly from the agreement that was between jews and christians , as to most great points of religion : partly from the agreement of their rites in this , that both were very unlike the heathen rites . neither did the heathens understand the difference between jews and christians , though wise men among them knew that there was a difference : this may be gathered from act. 18. 15. and act. 25. 19 , 20. it doth not follow from this , that the rites were the same . 2. for their keeping communion with the jews , this doth far less prove the point : and that because , 1. the time when they kept communion with the jews was when the jewish church was yet standing , and the christian not framed nor erected : our author cannot prove that they kept communion with them after the christian churches were set up : for their going to the temple and the synagogues to pre●ch , proveth nothing . for that they did because the people were there met , not because they would join in their service . 2. because it was fit for that time to yield to the jews so far as was possible , that they might be gained to the gospel : hence they observed even some of the legal ceremonies , they being then indifferent : but it followeth not that they did settle the ordinance and abiding practices of the church by the pattern of the synagogue . paul's being freely admitted into the synagogue to preach , proveth no more than we have granted : his condescending to them did procure this , not his framing gospel-churches according to their mould , much less is this his design proved by the mistake of the believing jews about the conversion of the gentiles , and their being zealous for observing the law of moses ; yea and grant that they were zealous for the uncommanded customes of their father , a● he alledgeth . for this proceeded from their being bred up in these things , and their ignorance of the mind of god in abolishing them , and in calling of the gentiles : and the apostle's yielding to the jews as far as might be for a time , was because he had not yet shewed the difference between the gospel and jewish church , because they could not then bear it : but with what shaddow of consequence doth it follow from this that the apostles did afterwards frame the christian church after the model of the jewish ? for the 3d. it is a bold and most false assertion , that christ and his disciples conformed to the uncommanded customes of the jews : yea they are accused for non-conformity in this point matth. 15. 2. and christ defendeth them in it , and meerly on this account , that these customs were the traditions of men , and humane doctrines : which is true of all uncommanded customes in religion . but how proveth he this assertion ? he bringeth instances ; christ observed the feast of dedication : this is impudently said ; he walked in solomons porch jo. 10. 22 , 23. that he might have occasion to teach the people : but did he offer a sacrifice , or observe any other rite or custome of the feast ? we read no such thing , going to their synagogues and teaching there was no uncommanded custome . washing the disciples feet a custom used by the jews before the passover ( saith mr. still . but others say it was done between the 2 courses of the passover ) this christ did , and giveth a mystical reason for it . jo. 13. 5. but that he did it in conformity to the jewish custome ( if any such there was ) let it be proved , appointing baptism i hope hath a better foundation than the jewish custome , but of this before ; thus what he saith in prosecuting his first consideration , is answered : neither is it as yet probable that the apostles imitated the jewes in framing the gospel-church . sect. 7. his 2d consideration p. 257. is that the apostles framed christian churches out of jewish synagogues : what solid proof for this he bringeth let us hear . we see saith he , how fearful the apostles were to offend the jews , and how ready to condescend to them in any thing that might be ; and if paul would yield to them in circumcising tim. ( a thing which might seem to cross the design of the gospel ) would he scruple to retain the old model the synagogue , when there was nothing in it repugnant to the doctrine of the gospel ? answ. the apostles at first did yield very far to the jews , because they could not at the beginning digest the taking down of the old frame of worship , and setting up a new ; hence they did conform to the jews , for that time , as much as might be in their transient and occasional practices : but this reason did no way oblige them to frame their constitutions and practices of the church that were to abide afterward , by the jewish patern , because then the gospel was fully promulgated , and the will of christ known to the new gospel-church , differing from the old ; and in this case we are rather to think that the apostles did not conform to the jewish way in things not necessary ; because as at first , their work was to bring them to christ , and so they yielded to them as much as might be ; so afterwards now their work was tobring them from moses , and to this end it was fit to bring them off all those customes and waies which might keep that their idol yet in their minds , as sure the jewish customes might do ; here is more then a shew of reason ( which our author requireth ) why the apostle should slight the constitution of the jewish synagogues ; and besides , it is reason enough why they should do this , if it be not proved that they did otherwise , seeing they were guided by an infallible spirit , not led by mens customes in their actions . i find no further proof of this consideration , but that they did not only gather churches out of synagogues , but that in probability whole synagogues in some places were converted . what ground there is for this probability i know not ; we read nothing of it , as we read of whole houses converted : neither see i any reason to think that the apostles did respect synagogues in their reforming churches : they made the churches of them who had before been in the synagogues ; and that i believe they did according to the peoples best conveniency for partaking of ordinances together : but that their synagogues were their pattern i see not . another argument from the jewish and gentiles coetus , he would fain be helped by ; but finding it weak , disputeth against it : wherefore we lay it aside , and come to his 3d consideration p. 260. viz. the synagogue-model was most agreable to the state of the churches in apostolick times ; because it was so ordered , as that it needed not depend on the secular power for attaining the end of government . answer . wherein the synagogue-model was , in the nature of the thing fitted to the state of the gospel , we do not say that the apostles would reject such a good thing because used by the synagogue ; only we deny that they used it because the synagogue used it : so this proveth nothing . further it proveth only co-incidency between the church and synogogue-government in this general that both were such as might consist without secular power : but divers particular forms may be of this nature ; so that there is no need from this consideration that the church and the synagogues be governed by the same model . sect. 8. we see how probable he hath made this his assertion : he cometh p. 261. to shew what particular practices of the synagogue , the apostles did take up and follow ; and first he speaketh of their publick service in the church : where all that he can attain to is this , that there was in the church , as there had been in the synagogue , solemn prayers , praises , reading of scripture , and t●aching of the people out of it : all which are parts of moral worship ; and would have been in the church though there had never been a synagogue to take example by ; he is forced to acknowledge a considerable difference , viz. omitting the reading the sections of the law as was done in the synagogue , and celebrating the lords supper , which was not in it : which one consideration destroyeth all that he is at so much pains to establish : for if christ and his apostles had made the synagogue their pattern , they might easily have conformed to them in reading the sections of the law and taking the lords supper , from some of their customes as well as they did baptism , as this author alledgeth . next he cometh p. 264. to ordination : about which he maketh a great deal of do , but to no purpose : for ordination i. e. a solemn setting of men apart for the office of the ministry , doth naturally follow as necessary to order ; supposing that some should be in that office and the work be not common to all , which i believe should have been in the church whatever had been done in the synagogue ; as for the rite of it ; laying on of hands , whether it was used in the synagogue or not is not worth our enquiry , for it will not thence follow that the apostles took it from the confederate discipline of the synagogue ( i. e. from their men-devised customes ) as our author confidently asserteth : but all that he discourseth proveth not this , but only , if it prove any thing , that it was used in the synagogue . i assert with more warrant that it was taken up both by the synagogue and by the apostles from the ancient custome of blessing , or dedicating any thing to god by this ceremony : of this judgment is calv. inst. lib. cap. 4. sect. hunc autem ritum fluxisse arbitror ab hebraeorum more , qui quod benedictum aut consecratum volebant , manuum impositione deo quasi repraesentabant : sic jacob benedicens ephraim & manasse , eorum capitibus manus imposuit : quod sequutus est dominus noster , cum super infantes precationem faceret : eodem ut arbitror significatu judaei ex legis praescripto suis sacrificiis manus imponebant : quare apostoli per manuum impositionem eum se deo offerre significabant quem initiabant in ministerium : quanquam usui sit etiam super eos , quibus visibilis spiritus gratias conferebant . we see then it was not the practice in synagogue-ordination only : but in many things else , and it is most probable that this rite so constantly used in all ages of the church , in all cases of blessing or consecration hath something more in it then humane institution in the synagogue : the constant use of it by men infallibly guided , as abraham , the apostles , christ himself ; the commanding of it in the like case of consecration under the law cannot but give it a stamp of divine authority . yea we find the levites thus ordained num. 8. 10. wherefore all this his pains doth not prove that gospel-ordinance was taken up from the humane custome of the synagogue . a few things in this his discourse . i shall further shortly take notice of . p. 264 , 265. he will have gospel-ministers not to succeeed ( no not by analogie ) to the priests and levites , but rather to the officers in the synagogues : for the priests were not admitted by solemn ordination ; but judged of their fitness , as to birth and body by the same ordination : but the rulers of the synagogues were admitted by ordination : and if any of the priests came to that office , they as well as others had their peculiar designation and appointment to it . here i reply . 1. i believe that gospel-ministers did not properly succeed to either of these ; but stand upon another foundation , viz. christs institution : and so it is needless to enquire which of them they should succeed to . i yield also , that the name of priests under the gospel hath brought in the thing it self , and even the mass : which ought not to be . 2. what can he design by this discourse ? would he make the office of the ministry stand on no other bottom but imitation of the synagogues rulers ; and these rulers to be brought in by a confederate discipline , i. e. to be a humane invention ? if he say not this , he saith nothing to the purpose ; but i hope he will not say it . 3. it is false , that the priests were not solemnly set apart for their office ; though they had it by birth , yet they behoved to be solemnly initiated to it ; and i am sure mr. still . would not have said , that they were no otherwise set apart but by the judgment of the sanhedrim , of their birth and body ; if he had not in this so consulted antiquity , as that he forgot to look into the bible . i do not deny but there was such a judgment to pass on them , ( neither ought ministers be now admitted without tryal ) yea the scripture ( which is surer than the talmud ) telleth us so much . ezr. 2. 62 , 63. yet we find also their solemn setting apart to the office described , exod. 28. 41. and 29. 1. lev. 8. 2 , &c. and spoken of , 2 chron. 26. 18. yea the very idol-priests would not want this solemn setting apart , 2 chron. 13 , 9. jud. 17. 5 , 12. yea , our authors opinion everteth it self ; for to what purpose was a publick judging of them before their entry on the exercise of their office , if there was no solemn admission of them to it ; sure a solemn declaring them such as god had appointed his priests to be ( if there had been no more , they being kept from exercising the office till this was done ) was a solemn admission . 4. i would know who these others were who were rulers of the synagogue , and so teachers of the people ; at least superintenders over gods publick worship ( as he elswhere phraseth it ) beside the priests ? if they were only levites , or others also , as he seemeth to imply : and if any other but priests and levites were admitted to that office , i would know quo warranto : sure the scripture speaketh of these as old testament-teachers , neh. 8. 9. 2 chron. 17. 8 , 9. and of none else , but immediately inspired prophets . but i see mr. stilling . looketh more to rabinical stories in these matters , than to the bible : and to the customs of the synagogue in the days of the apostacy than to the commands of god , as he gave them , though they be rare who are made mad by too much learning ; yet there are whom too much reading ( without holding to the scripture as the rule ) maketh to dote . i need not insist on what he writeth , p. 268 , &c. of the rite of laying on of hands ; enough hath been said , to shew that it proveth not what he intendeth : nor on the persons ordaining in the synagogue and in the church ; of which he , pa. 272 , &c. for in both he confesseth abomination to have been done in common by those in power ; and afterward without divine warrant restrained to one : if christ hath given power to all presbyters to do it ; we must have some warrant to restrain this power ere we dare do it ; but of this enough before . sect. 9. in his further prosecuting the correspondence of the apostolick church with the synagogue : he speaketh p. 285. of the order setled by the apostles in the churches planted by them , for ruling of them : and first he maketh a work about the name 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which is the same with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 used in the synagogue ; but from his own discourse it 's clear how little weight is to be laid on this consideration , as to what he intendeth : seeing that name was ever used to denote power and dignity , whether in church or state , and so doth no more belong to the synagogue than other things . i take notice of what he saith in the end of p. 286. if his design is not to dispute the arguments of of either party , ( viz. those who conceive the apostles setled the government of the church in absolute purity , or else by superiority and subordination among the setled officers of the church ) but to lay down these principles , which may equally concern both , in order to accommodation . but i humbly conceive , it was very incumbent upon him to answer the arguments of both parties : and they must be answered to us before we be obliged to receive his doctrine ( of which anon ) that we cannot know what form the apostles setled , and that they setled not any one form . for as long as arguments brought by either of the controverting parties do stand untaken away ; to prove that the apostles setled this or that form : the judgment can never acquiesce in his opinion , that they setled none ; or that we cannot know what they setled . this is a strange way of disputing , especially when the design is to satisfie the conscience in order to peace , and yielding up its opinion : to lay down such principles to this end , with strong arguments standing against them , untouched or answered . 't is like mr. stilling . thinketh that when he hath furnished men with some probabilities , that may encourage them to comply with what government shall be set up in the church ; their interest and maintenance should resist the strength of all arguments against it : for he will furnish them with no help in this ; but they must have very pliable consciences , if will be furnished to an opinion so maintained . his principles in order to accommodation , or all that he will say of the apostles government , he draweth into 3 propositions , p. 287. which in sum are these : that we cannot know what was the apostles practice : that it was not always the same : that whatever it was , we are not obliged to observe it . let us hear how he maketh these out . sect. 10. his first proposition he setteth down thus : that we cannot arrive to such an absolute certainty what course the apostles took in governing churches , as to infer from thence the only divine right of that one form which the several parties imagine come nearest to it . this proposition is not so ingenuously nor clearly set down as need were ; wherefore i shall a little remove the mist cast on the truth by his words , which may make simple souls mistake it . and 1. there is some ambiguity in [ absolute certainty ] if he mean so much certainty as amounteth to plerophory , and doth dispell all degrees of darkness and doubting , this we assert , not that every one may attain ( such is the darkness of mens minds ( neither is it needful to this that we look upon what the apostles did , as being juris divini . if we mean , so much certainty as doth incline the mind to the one part , and not leave it in suspence : we assert , that this may be attained in reference to what is in question . 2. the matter in debate , is very obscurely , if not fraudulently expressed by these words [ what course the apostles took in governing churches ] the question is not , whether we can know every thing that they did in this , ( for many particulars are comprehended in this general expression ) but whether we can know if the setled presbyters acting in parity , or bishops acting with authority over presbyters , as the ordinary officers of the church ▪ 3. it is not fair dealing to imply ( as this proposition doth ) that we infer the only divine right of one form from bare apostolical practice : he knows that we walk upon other grounds , viz. we take christs command of imitating the apostles : the parity between our case and theirs , which may make the morality of our practice to be the same with theirs . 4. it is not the one form which several parties imagine to come nearest to apostolical practice : but that which is proved to be really the same with it , we plead for : it 's not mans imaginations , but scriptural grounds which we establish that correspondency upon , we are asserting between apostolical practice , and what we would have to be now in the church . the antithesis then which we maintain against this his proposition , is this , that they who search the scripture may come to be satisfied on good grounds , whether the apostles in planting churches did setle presbyters acting in parity , or bishops ruling over presbyters as their ordinary officers : so as they may ( considering the duty laid on us to follow them , and the parity of our case with theirs ) infer the divine right of that one form ( of these two ) which was used by the apostles . for proof of this our antithesis i refer to the consideration laid down , p. 184 , 185. about the perfection of scripture-history , and its design to instruct us in this point : which doth so far prevail with me , that i look upon the authors proposition as such a reflexion on scripture , that any but a papist may be ashamed of . to this i add , that the arguments brought for presbyterial government by the assertors of it , do evidently destroy the authors proposition , and do establish our antithesis : which seeing he doth not intend nor endeavour to answer , we need not insist upon . a further confirmation of our antithesis , shall be to take off the arguments that he hath brought for his proposition , which i now come to . sect. 11. his first argument is , p. 287. from the equivalency of the names and doubtfulness of their signification , from which the form of government used in the new testament , should be determined . he saith , that it is hotly pleaded on both sides , that the form of government must be derived from the importance of the names [ bishop and presbyter ] and that there can be no way to come to a determination what the certain sense of these names is in scripture . he maketh out the uncertainty , by laying down four opinions about the signification of these names : and from this variety of interpretation , inferreth that we cannot know what sense they are to be taken in . ans. 1. when he saith that it is pleaded on both sides , that the form of government must be derived from the names of bishop and presbyter ; this is a misrepresentation ; for 1. there be arguments from which it might well be derived , though these names should never be mentioned . 2. when we dispute from these names , it is not from the bare force of the word ; but from this , that the scripture doth often apply these names to the same thing , never to divers officers in the church : and therefore , there is no ground for asserting the difference of bishop and presbyter . this is a surer argument , than what can be drawn from the importance of names . answ. 2. it is most false and injurious to the spirit of god speaking in his word , to say , that there can be no way to determine what is the certain sense of these names in scripture . we must then say , that the spirit of god speaketh that which cannot be understood , if he use names and words to express some thing to us , and it is impossible to know what is meant by them . when we hear of bishops and presbyters in any place of scripture ; either we must say , that these words signifie nothing , or that they mean somewhat , but no man can know what it is , or that we may come to know what is meant by them . the former two are foul reflexions on the author of holy scripture : yea , it were a reflexion on a man to speak or write ( in a book designed for instruction ) that which either hath no meaning , or such as cannot be known . the 3d , contradicteth our authors assertion . his proof of the uncertainty of the signification of these names , we have met with before in the like case : it is a most unhappy and inconsequential reason ; men have divers ways understood these words of the holy ghost , ergo , they cannot be understood at all . they must have a meaning , and it is our duty to search it out , however men differ about it . there are better reasons brought by presbyterians , to prove that these two names signifie the same thing ; which was incumbent on this author to answer , and not to shift the matter with saying , that other men think otherwise . i shall give but this instance , or hint , which may satisfie any what is the meaning of these words in scripture . tit. 2. the apostle leaveth in crete titus to ordain elders or presbyters , verse 5. and telleth him how they must be qualified , verse 6 and giveth this reason , why they must have such qualifications , verse 7. for a bishop must be blameless : if a bishop were another thing than a presbyter , to what purpose were this reason here brought ? ergo , they are one and the same thing . and if any affirm , that these words signifie different things in any place of scripture , let him prove it , and we shall yield the cause . i might also shew , that the same office and work is every where in scripture laid on both these ; and that never any thing is given to the one , but what is given to the other : but this hath been done , and other arguments managed fully by our writers against episcopacy ; neither hath mr. stilling . had the confidence to answer them , though destroying this his assertion , and therefore i shall supersede this labour . for the name of [ angels of the churches ] the argument brought from it is not ours , but our opposites . sect. 12. his 2d . argument for the uncertainty of apostolical practice , p. 290. is , that the places of scripture most in controversie about the form of government , may be without any incongruity understood of either of the different forms , which he maketh out by going through the several places . the first is , acts 11. 30. where it is said , that the relief for the brethren of judea was sent to the elders . there is nothing here , saith he , to shew whether there were the local elders of jerusalem , or the bishops of the several churches of judea . answ. i wonder why he should have brought this as the first , or as one of these few scriptures that he undertaketh to answer , ( for , the most part of the most pungent scriptures against his design , he doth not so much as mention ) for , i think , it is very little insisted on by either party : nor can i remember that i have met with it ; as brought to prove either parity or imparity . yet i do not doubt but at least some probability may be hence brought , that the apostolick churches were governed by the parity of elders ; for which i lay down briefly these grounds , first , the elders here spoken of , are the governors of the church ; this he doth not deny . 2dly , they were the governors of the church of jerusalem . this he saith , is not sure ; for they might be the bishops of the churches of judea . but against this i argue ; 1. it is not enough to say , they might be ; but what ground is there to think that they were the bishops of judea , we bring probable grounds for what we assert ; but what can be said for the contrary ? it is a bold way of expounding scripture , to say such a sense it may have , when there is no ground to think that it hath such a sense ; but some ground to the contrary . 2. however , the relief ought to be sent to all the churches of judea , yet it is delivered at jerusalem to be sent abroad : for it is delivered to these elders by barnabas and paul ; whom it is not like they sent through the several churches of judea : 't is spoken of as one single act of theirs , delivering the others to a company of elders met together . now it is not imaginable , that all the bishops of judea were met together on this occasion : for what needed such a convention for receiving alms ? yea , we have no ground to think that it was so natural to them before-hand , as that they could meet about it . neither hath that conceit of some , any probability ; that these bishops did reside at jerusalem : such men did not begin so soon to slight their particular charge , but of this after ; these elders then were the elders of jerusalem . 3. we find a company of elders ordinarily at jerusalem , not only acts 15. 6. which might be upon the solemn occasion of the council ; but act. 21. 18. that these were the elders of judea , come up with their flocks to keep the feast of pentecost ( as mr. still . guesseth ) is a most irrational conceit : for though many of the jews were zealous of the law ; shall we think that the apostles had set teachers over them , who were no better instructed in the gospel than so ? and besides , these believing jews , ver . 20. who are said to be zealous of the law , can neither be proved to have been then present at jerusalem ; for they might hear of paul's condescendency to their customs , though they were not there : neither that they were those of the country of judea ; they might be of jerusalem it self : but i incline rather to the first . now we find not any other company of all the elders of judea met in one place : these were then the elders of jerusalem . 4. it is then observed , both by the ordinary gloss , and by lyra in loc . that this famine was mainly like to be in jerusalem : the believers there being spoiled of their movable goods in the persecution about stephen ; and therefore this relief was chiefly to them : ergo , they are the elders of jerusalem , which here received it . now from these grounds it easily followeth what we intend , viz. if there was a company of elders who were rulers of the church at jerusalem : then this church ( of the rest there is the same reason ) was not governed by a bishop , but by presbyters acting in parity . it is strange , if the elders of the church should be spoken of , and no notice taken of my lord bishop ( if there were any such person ) in such a matter . sect. 13. the 2d place is act. 14. 23 , when they had ordained them elders in every church , to which he joineth the 3d , tit. 1. 5. that thou shouldest ordain elders in every city . of which places he saith that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifie no more but ecclesiatim and oppidatim ; so that the places may well be understood of ordaining one elder in every church and city , or of more , but doth not determine whether one or more were ordained in them . but granting all that he alledgeth , a strong argument for our purpose may be brought from these places , thus : there was at least in every church one elder , in the apostles times , and such an elder as was also a bishop and had governing power over the church , as appeareth by comparing vers . 7. of tit. 2. with this vers 5. but there could not be in every church a diocesan bishop ruling over presbyters : for one of these are over many churches , ergo. the church was then governed by the elders of the several churches acting in parity : for if every church had its elder , or elders , and these all were rulers , then the rule was not in the hand of one superiour over many churches . nothing can be questioned in this argument , except it be said that every church here is not every congregational but diocesan church . but this can in no wise be , for there was a necessity of an elder or elders in every congregational church for the peoples instruction : if these then did rule , the church was ruled by the elders of congregational churches . the next place is act ▪ 20. 17. and from miletus paul sent and called the elders of the church . these , say we , were elders of the church of ephesus , to whom in common paul committeth the ruling of the church , vers . 28. not to one bishop over the rest , so that church was governed by parity of elders . to this place he answereth by shewing some probabilities for both meanings , viz. that these were the elders of ephesus ; and that they were the bishops of asia : but taketh no pains to answer what is said on either hand , only concludeth , that because there is probability on both hands there is no fixed truth on either ; which is most detestable scepticism : for if there be arguments for both parts , sure both cannot be true , seeing they are contradictory , neither can both be false for the same reason , for contradictoriarum altera semper est vera , altera semper est falsa : then it was his part either to shew that neither of the arguments prove any thing , by answering to them , or to hold to the one as true , and not to hang between two . but i prove that these elders were the elders of ephesus , not the bishops of asia . 1. ( which argument he mentioneth but he answereth not ) the article in the greek maketh it clear , it being demonstratory doth apply his speech to the church which he had mentioned in particular : where when it 's said that he sent to ephesus and called for the elders , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it might well be translated [ of that church : ] it pointeth out that church and no other . it is an unheard of way of speaking when a particular thing or person is mentioned , and the demonstrative article joined to it , that that speech should be understood of any other but that . 2. paul sent to ephesus for these elders , not through the several parts of asia . ergo. they were at ephesus not in other churches . that he did not send through other places to gather them together is evident both because the text mentioneth sending to ephesus , not other places ; and it is strange if he sent through all asia and mention be only made of sending to one place not to any other : also because paul was then in hast passing by them vers . 16. wherefore 't is not like that he could stay for the convening of a synod of bishops from many remote parts . that which is alledged by some , that the bishops of asia did reside at ephesus , and thence were sent for by paul , is most absurd ; for 1. there is not the least shaddow or reason to think that non residence of fixed officers did so soon creep into the church . let us see any instance or warrant to think that any who had a fixed charge did leave it long , or often , or at all , but upon some weighty and extraordinary emergent . 2. what could be their business at ephesus : their work lay elsewhere , and there they could do nothing except to meet and consult about matters of common concerment : which will not infer ordinary residence there . 3. the work of these elders was particular inspection over their flocks ; vers . 28. [ over all the flock ] which they could not have if they resided at ephesus , and had their charges lying up and down asia , for that probability which he bringeth for the contrary , it is none at all , viz. it is said vers . 18. that he had been with them at all seasons ; but he was not all the time in ephesus , but abroad in asia as act. 19. 10 , 22 , 26. answ. [ at all seasons ] must not be taken in such rigour as if he had never stirr'd a foot out of ephesus ; but that he had his residence and preached most th●re , which is evident from act. 19. 1 , 9. 10. he disputed daily in the school of tyrannus ; this was at ephesus : and it is said that it continued 2 years , i. e. for the most part of the time he was there , and yet might sometimes preach elsewhere . for the humane testimonies he bringeth for either part , i we●e then in the same ballance with him and shall be content to lay no stress upon them . as for the 1 tim. 3 ▪ 1. which is his other place , we make no argument from it ▪ but maintain that it speaketh not of a diocesan bishop : let them who assert the con●rary prove it . his discourse p. 293. is a very unsavory comparing of some philosophical problems which cannot well be determined ( and therefore we may hesitate about them ) with points of truth revealed in scripture ; as if we might also be sceptick in these . but sure the comparison is miserably lame , for 1. these do not concerne our faith or duty as these other do , and therefore there is much less hazard in scepticism about the one than the other . 2. even in those points the motion of the earth or heaven , the flux and reflux of the sea , there is some truth in them , though men through darkness cannot see it : neither must we say that nothing there is , because there is nothing certain to us in these things ; or that men may impose on our belief what they please in them : hence men are the more studious in searching out these secrets and give them not over as being destitute of all objective truth . but he dealeth worse with the things of church-government ; he will have no objective truth in it , and no duty to lye on us in searching out the truth , but that we must believe what men say of it . for conclusion of what i would say to this ground of his scepticism about church-government , i will but mention several scriptures . on which the truth in this is built viz. that the apostolick form was parity , which mr. still . hath not so much as touched : neither need i insist on them , seeing arguments from them are established by our writers , and not enervated by him . one place is 1 tim. 4. 14. where tim. is said to be ordained by a presbytery or company of elders joyning with paul in that action : this could not have been if elders had not had a parity of power . another is , 1 cor. 5. 4 , 5. where excommunication is transacted by the authority of a community , not of a single person : and so is the relaxing of that sentence 2 cor. 2. 8. 10. also 1 thess. 5. 12. they who ruled that church , who were over them , and must be obeyed , were many ; not one person : yea that work and the work of labouring among the people and admonishing them are made to be the business of the same persons ; which is a demonstration that the presbyters of that church did rule in common and not a bishop over them . heb. 13. 7 , 17. proveth also the same thing most clearly . other places might be brought , but these instances may shew that mr. stilling . undertaking to shew that no place in scripture determineth what was the form of government in the apostolick church , doth not touch the most considerable places commonly brought to that purpose : but hath mentioned a few , and those which are least insisted on by them whom he opposeth ; and even to them he hath said nothing to scare any from using them as arguments afterward . his third argument for the uncertainty of the primitive or apostolical form of government , taken from the insufficiency of the testimony of antiquity , is this ; i pass it , because we have ground enough for the certainty of it from scripture , and what he saith proveth no more but that antiquity is not sufficient to bear witness to it : also because all or most that he there discourseth proveth that it cannot be gathered from ancient records that episcopacy was the apostolical form , which we willingly yield . sect. 14. i come then to his 2d proposition mentioned before , which he layeth down p. 322. thus , that the apostles in probability did not observe any one fixed course of setling the government of churches ; but settled it according to the several circumstances of places and persons which they had to deal with . this assertion he layeth down ex abundanti , not as a foundation of his opinion but a doctrine of probability , which may tend to compose differences about church-government . to clear our way in this dispute with him , let it be observed , 1. that the question being only about parity and imparity of pastors , all other differencies in apostolick practices that may be alledged are impertinent to this purpose . 2. it helpeth not him , nor harmeth our cause , if we should grant , that the apostles did in some extraordinary cases vary from their ordinary course : for it is what they did ordinarily , and where no extraordinary cause moved them to do otherwise , that we inquire about . 3. our question is not about the government of the church that was for a time exercised by extraordinary officers immediately sent of god : but what was the way the apostles settled that the church should be governed in by her ordinary and abiding officers . wherefore it maketh nothing for his purpose if it be made out that the church was some times governed one way by extraordinary officers , at other times or places another way by ordinary officers . taking these considerations along with us , i come to hear the proofs of this his proposition . the first is taken p. 323. from the different state , condition and quantity of the churches planted by the apostles , and here he premiseth 3 things , viz. that god did not give the apostles equal suceess of their labours in all places , that a small number of believers did not require the same number of officers to teach and govern them that a greater church did . 3. that the apostles did settle church-officers according to the probability of increase of believers , and in order thereto , in some great places . about these i shall not controvert with him ; only the 2d must be understood with this distinction , else we cannot grant it ; that a fewer number , if formed into a church-society , though it did not need as great a number of officers of every kind , as teachers , elders , deacons ; yet would it need as many sorts of officers ; and the reason is because all those acts are needful to be done to them which must be done to greater congregations : they must be taught , ruled , and their poor cared for ; and therefore they must not want any of these sorts of officers whose work these acts were : i mean where such officers could be had : for christs institutions tye not to impossibilities . from these premisses he inferreth these two conclusions to make out his proposition ; the first is p. 325. that in churches consisting of a small number of believers where there was no great probability of increase afterwards , one single pastor with deacons under him were only constituted by the apostles for the ruling of these churches . on this conclusion ( before i come to his proofs of it ) i shall make these remarques . 1. here is nothing here for the imparity of presbyters , or the authority of a bishop over presbyters ; if where more presbyters could not be had , one was to do the work , this doth not at all say that the apostles ever did , or that we may set one over the rest , where many may be had to rule the church . this conclusion then proveth nothing . 2. these deacons that here he speaketh of either had ruling power or not : if he say the first i doubt , if he can prove that ever any such deacons were in the apostolick churches , where the deacons work was to serve , not to rule that church : and if they had ruling power they were not only deacons but ruling elders , both works being laid on the same persons for want of men to exercise them distinctly ; which maketh nothing against presbyterians . if the second , first i question if any instance can be given of a church so constituted by the apostles . 2. if it was so , it was necessity , not choice that made them be without ruling elders . sect. 15. but how proveth he this his conclusion ? by 3 or 4 testimonies out of clement , epiph. and others . what ? hath he so soon forgot himself ? he had immediately before spent about 30 pages in proving that the testimony of the fathers is not sufficient to prove what was the apostles practice ; and that by making out the defectiveness ambiguity , partiality and repugnancy of the records of the succeeding ages : it is strange then that to prove this his assertion concerning apostolick practice , he should bring no other argument at all but such as he had set that nigrum theta upon . neither see i what those testimonies prove contrary to us . the testimony of clement saith no more than what is implyed , phil. 1. 1. that the apostles ordained bishops and deacons : and our author himself maintaineth that those were not by their constitution any more than presbyters : whatever they might after get by mens institution proveth not what was apostolick constitution . for the testimony of epiphanius he confesseth its intricacie and obscurity , and therefore ( by his own argument , of which before ) it is not to be laid weight upon : but he taketh a great deal of pains to explain it and make it speak this , in sum : that at first there were only bishops and deacons ( by bishops he meaneth presbyters , as appears from his subjoyning immediately that there was necessity for presbyters and deacons ) and that by these all ecclesiastical offices might be performed : but afterward where there was need and there were found any worthy of it , there was a bishop appointed : but where there were not many to be presbyters ; they were content with a bishop and deacons . here are 3 cases ; presbyters and deacons ; a bishop and deacons ; this in case of necessity where more presbyters could not be had : this bishop , as hath been shewn before , could be nothing above a presbyter ; none of those cross our design : for the third , viz. a bishop set over presbyters , first epiphanius doth not say it was so appointed by the apostles , but [ it was done ] it is like he meaneth by succeeding ages . 2. he doth not say that this bishop was set over presbyters with jurisdiction ; he might be meerly a praeses , so there is nothing here to prove that the apostles ever setled any thing contrary to parity of presbyters . the testimony out of clem. alexan. even with salmasius his commentary proveth no more but that in some places were more presbyters , in some fewer , in some but one . his last testimony saith nothing at all to the purpose : only that the apostles settled things by degrees , not that ever they set up bishops . sect. 16. the 2d conclusion that he inferreth , p. 332. that in churches consisting of a multitude of believers , or where there was a probability of a great increase by preaching the gospel , the apostles did settle a college of presbyters , whose office was partly to govern the church already formed , and partly to labour in converting more . this we close with , and from it , and the former conclusion which make up his whole argument , infer the quite contrary to his design , viz. that the apostles kept a most uniform course , ( so far as necessity did permit ) in setling the government of churches : and that they setled the government in the hands of presbyters acting in a society where they could be had , and singly where more could not be : and that they never setled it in the hand of a bishop ruling over presbyters . all this is evident from what hath been said . he taketh occasion , p. 336 , &c. to speak against the office of ruling-elders in the church : in which dispute he toucheth not any ( except one scripture ) of those arguments which are brought by the defenders of that office : which is but a slight way of disputing against any opinion . it is not needful to our design to handle this debate fully , till that be answered which is writen by the author of the assertion of the government of the church of scotland : by the author of the treatise of ruling-elders and deacons : by the london ministers in their jus divinum reg. eccles. and in their vindication of pres. gov. by smect . by calv. just. lib. 4. c. 4. sect . 8. and lib. 4. c. 11. sect . 6. by peter martyr , loc. com . clas . 4. c. 1. num . 11. and many others . wherefore i shall only answer what this author hath said against the truth in this point . whereas among many other scriptures proving this office , 1 tim. 5. 17. is brought as one , there being implied there a distinction of elders that rule well , and are to be honoured with double honour ; into such as labour in the word and doctrine , and another member of the distinction not expressed , which can be none else but elders who rule and do not labour in the word and doctrine , i. e. whose office it is only to rule , not to teach publickly , as pastors . of this scripture he pretendeth to bring a full , clear and easie understanding , viz. that of the elders that were ordained in great churches , ( who had power to discharge all pastoral acts , but did not all attend equally the same part of the work ) some did most attend the ruling of the flock already converted ; others laboured most in converting others by preaching ; and that according to their several abilities : now these last deserved greater honour , both because their burthen was greater , and their sufferings more . this is no new , though it be a false interpretation : for the author of asser. govern. ch. of scotl. p. 48 , 46. bringeth it as one of dr. fields answers to the same place : or rather two of them which by our author are put together . but against this exposition of the text , i thus argue : 1. this gloss supposeth that there were elders , whose office it was to teach and to rule : and yet they did ordinarily neglect the one part of this their work , and contented themselves with doing the other : is it imaginable that the lord allows any honour at all upon such ? and yet the text alloweth double honour , even on unpreaching elders , though the preachers have it more especially . this reason is strongly enforced , if we consider that church-power communicated by christ to the officers of his house , is not only a licence or permission ( as we noted before ) but a charge of which they must give an account : as it is said of church-rulers heb. 13. 17. neither do i see how any who by their office are preachers of the gospel , can free themselves of that wherewith the apostle chargeth himself , 1 cor. 9. 16 necessity is laid upon me , yea wo is unto me if i preach not the gospel , and of that charge laid on timothy ( who was as much taken up with ruling as any ) 2. tim. 4. 2. that he should preach the word , be instant in season , out of season : may men when christ hath put them in office and given them a charge ; choose what part of the work of that office and charge they will do , and what not ? but i perceive , this man's principles lead him to subject all christs institutions to mens will , to cut and carve of them as they please : christ hath given pastors a charge that they should teach and rule his church . he had pleaded before the ruling-power may be taken from some , and laid on others ; now he affirmeth the same of teaching-power : this is intolerable boldness . 2. we have no better ground for judging of the diversity of officers in the church , than by considering divers sorts of work which some did ordinarily with the lord's approbation , that others did not , but were employed in other work . what better note can we have to know what is a mans office ; than his work which he is ordinarily employed in , and that with god's own approbation ? wherefore , if some elders preached , others preached not , but ruled ; we must think that these were distinct officers , and that their office led them only to do what they did . 3. this learned author should have brought some reason for what he alledgeth , viz. that these unpreaching eledrs , who ruled , had power to preach ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , shall not persuade us of it : neither is there the least shew of warrant for such an assertion . if it be said that they preached sometimes , and therefore could not be without preaching-power . answ. it cannot be proved that there were any officers in the apostolick church , who had preaching-power , or did sometimes preach , and yet were so taken up with ruling , that they did not ordinarily preach . 4. we may with as much ( yea the same ) reason say , that every officer in the church had all church-power , and might occasionally exert it ; though some according to their gift did ordinarily exert one part ; others , another : and that deacons might preach , and do all the work of the pastors , though ordinarily , being better gifted for that , they served tables : but this is to jumble together what the lord hath made an ordinary separation of . 5. this opinion maketh the different work that church-officers are employed in , not to proceed from distinct office or power , but from different gifts , which would bring a babel of confusion into the church ; for 1. as men think they are gifted , so will they take up their work ; and so most will readily incline to the easiest work , and think their gift lieth that way , to the great neglect of the difficult and main business ; and because ruling is sweet to an ambitious mind , and laborious preaching is painful ; we shall have abundance of rulers , but few teachers . 2. by the same reason one may neglect all the parts of his work , that he may neglect one : pretending that his gift is not for this , nor for that , and that they may be done by others . if it must be said ▪ the church must appoint them their work , and not leave it to their choice . answ. if the church appoint timothy's work to be to rule , and exempt him from preaching ordinarily ; i see not how he differeth from the ruling-elders , which this author disputeth against , notwithstanding his supposed power to preach ; which to him is an idle talent ( i mean , if this be done warrantably : otherwise it is not done ) especially , if the church give him no more power than christ hath given to every pastor , that is , to rule over the flock with the equal concurrence of his fellow-presbyters ; not to rule over presbyters by himself singly : for that they cannot give him this power , i have before proved . 6. if the elders that preach , because of the greatness of their work and sufferings , have more honour than they who only rule ; then the bishop being of this last sort , must be inferiour in honour to those other presbyters : especially this must hold in the opinion of this author , who holdeth , that bishop and presbyter differ not jure divino : but this i suppose will not well please his lordship and indeed is very unsuitable to the dignity of one who ruleth over others : sure the dignity of church-officers is to be reckoned by the dignity of their place ; where it is different : as it is by the discharge of their work where their place is the same . sect. 17. to strengthen this his conceit , he brings a testimony out of chrysost. affirming , that the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the fixed officers of particular churches , who were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , were inferiour to them , who preaching the gospel , travelled abroad into divers places . answ. this is not at all to the purpose : for they who so travelled abroad , were evangelists ; no fixed officers : but of the former , the apostle doth not at all speak here ; it rather appeareth ( saith the author , asser. 1. gover. ch. scotl. ) that elders were ordained in every city , there to abide with their particular charges , acts 14. 23. tit. 1. 5. he argueth also thus against ruling-elders : these elders are not the bishops paul speaketh of , 1 tim. 3. for these must be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , verse 2. l. answ. the author now cited , answereth this argument brought by dr. field , and citeth beza , answering to sarav . who had used it . passing his first answer , i make use of the 2d , which is beza's , that the ruling-elder , though he ought not to teach publickly as a pastor , yet he ought to teach privately , and occasionally , according as the need of every one requireth : it is his part to oversee the manners of the people , and to bring miscarriages to the church , to be censur'd ; but first he is to labour to reclaim the offender by private admonition , according to christ's rule , matth. 18. 15 , 16 , 17. and that not only ex charitate , as every christian ought to do ; but virtute officii and authoritatively : and for this cause he ought to be a man of understanding above the common sort , both able and willing to teach ( so the word beareth ) so far as his place requireth . again , he argueth from act. 20. 28. all the elders of ephesus had a pastoral charge , for they are bid take heed to the flock as overseers : but this is inconsistent with the notion of a lay-elder , ergo , there were none such at ephesus . answ. the major is false : they had a charge and oversight : but every oversight is not pastoral . ruling also falleth under this notion , which is the office of the elder we plead for . he confesseth , p. 338. the weakness of that argument from maintenance , which he saith brought blondel quite off from ruling-elders , in that place of 1 tim. 5 ▪ 17. it is true , blondel de jur . pleb . in reg. eccl. p. 77 , &c. alledgeth , that these elders are not there meant , because maintenance ( implied in double honour , as is clear from ver . 18. compared ) is due to these , but not to ruling-elders . yet the argument , with all the enforcements of that learned author , will not prove what he designeth . for 1. some famous interpreters understand this double honour , only of a degree of honour beyond these spoken of before , viz. widows , so calv. in loc . 2. how shall it be proved , that maintenance is not due to ruling-elders , or the seniores plebis , as blondel calleth them ? his arguments taken from the difuse of it , will not conclude this : neither what he saith of the want of power in any to remit it : for where it cannot be had for them , necessity excuseth the withholding of it : where it cannot be had , let the inhauncers of church-rents answer for it , if such necessaries be not supplied to the church : neither do i blame him for blaming ( p. 83. ) these protestant nations , who have cast out abbacies which abounded in riches , have rather taken the revenues into the state-treasury , than allowed it for such good uses as this . i add for further answer out of asser. gover. ch. scotl. p. 105. that a stipend , though due , is not essential to the office , either of elders or ministers ; and therefore the want of the one , can be no argument against the other ; but neither is blondel against the office of ruling-elders ( though he deny them to be spoken of in 1 tim. 5. 17. but disputeth strongly for it , yea , and groundeth it on the apostles practice , p. 85 , which is an evidence of divine right . the next thing mr. stilling . saith against ruling-elders , is , that if we remove from the scripture to the primitive church , we shall find the greatest difficulty to trace the footsteps of a lay-elder through the records of authority for the first 3 centuries especially . answ. 1. we look on the scripture as a surer word of prophecy , and therefore are unwilling to pass from it , to that which mr. stilling hath above proved , to be utterly so insufficient to determine in matters of church-government . 2. others are of another mind that this author . blondel . de jur . pleb . in reg. eccl. p. 85. aliis igitur , saith he , firmamentis , iis nimirum , qui nobis apostolorum primamque per trium saeculorum culorum periodum antiquitatis , praxin stravit , seniorum plebis institutio & functio ( ut sic dicam ) vitae à protestantibus per gallias , scotiam , belgiam instituta statuminanda est . and asser. grov . ch. scot. par . 1. c. 8 , 9. unpregnable and abundant testimonies out of antiquity are brought for this office , which seeing mr. stilling . hath not answered , it is needless to insist on them . 3. but , and if in many places in the primitive times this office was difused , it was their fault , and taken notice of by the better sort , calv. in 1 tim. 5. 17. speaking of this office , saith , hunc morem ambrosius absolevisse conqueritur doctorum ignavia , vel potius superbia dum soli volunt eminere . see testimonies for the antiquity of it , smect . sect . 15. sect. 18. his second proof of his second proposition , viz. that the apostles took diverse courses in ruling churches , is p. 340. from the multitude of unfixed officers residing in some places , who managed the affairs of the church in chief , during their residence : such were apostles and evangelists . in some places , saith he , these were , others not , and in some places no officers but these . answ. this is obviated by our 3d observ. for the question is only about government by ordinary and abiding officers , and that only where they could be had , of whom this proof doth not speak . his 3d proof , ibid. is from the different customs observed in the church after the apostles times . this is most inconsequent : yea , one might as well reason thus : in after-times they set up metropolitans , and at last a pope , ergo , it was so in the apostles times . we say then , that diversity in after ages flowed from this ; that men ( following mr. stilling . principles ) did not follow divine institution , or apostolick practice , but their own wit and reason . beside , the diversities he here instanceth in , are not to the purpose ; for he doth not shew us that parity was in one place , and imparity in another ; but that in one place the presbyters chused their bishop , in another not . sect. 19. we come at last to his 3d proposition about apostolick practice p. 341. viz. that a meer apostolical practice being supposed , is not sufficient of it self for the founding of an unalterable and perpetual rite for the form of government in the church which is supposed to be founded on that practice . this doctrine he laid down before par . 1 c. 1. p. 23. and we examined p. _____ where i stated that question far otherwise than he seemeth here to do ; and indeed th●s proposition , as here laid down , might be yielded by us : neither doth it nor his arguments for it touch th● controversie , which is andabatarum more pugnare . we lay no obligation on any by a meer apostolical practice ; but by their practice considered as done in the same case that we are in . neither 2. do we say that such practice is sufficient of it self to bind us , for it hath gods command of imitation , of which before ; and equal morality of that action to us and then to concur with it in this . neither do we say . 3. that their practice doth found a riet : it doth but declare what is founded on the will of christ as that which we must do . most of all his arguments are obviated by what is already said . the first , that they did many things without intention of obliging others , as going abroad to preach the gospel unprovided ; pauls not taking wages &c. this doth not touch the point , seeing these things were for a peculiar reason . to the same purpose is the 2d argument p. 343. ( which indeed is but the same argument ) that they did many things on particular occasions , emergencies and circumstances ; as pauls celebate , community of goods , preaching in private houses , fields , &c. that which only is worth the noticing in this argument is p. 344. that he requireth , before apostolical practice be obligations , that it be made appear that what they did was not according as they saw reason depending on the several circumstances of time , place and persons , but from some unalterable law of christ. answer . this we are able to prove , as to ruling the churches by a parity of elders , for they did ordinarily so practice , and that where the place , persons and times were not the same : neither can it be shewed that ever they did otherwise , i. e. set up a bishop over presbyters : is not this sufficient ground der ) this mystery of iniquity had begun to work , 2 thes. 2. 7. it is no wonder then , that soon after it began to appear : and when some had thus miscarried , and others stuck to the apostolical frame of things , this might quickly breed a diversity . 3. it will easily appear to any who readeth this chap. that all the authours discourse tendeth to prove that the ancient churches thought not episcopacy to be jure divino : let them who are concerned answer him in this if they can ; i am convinced of the truth of what he saith . but let us take a short view of the grounds on which he establisheth what he asserteth in this chap. sect. 2. the first is , that the extent of the power of church-officers did increase meerly from the enlargment of the bounds of churches : which he maketh out in 4 steps or periods . the first is , when churches were the same with christians in a whole city . and here he handleth 3 things , first he sheweth that the primitive constitution of churches was in a society of christians in the same city : where he will have the name [ church ] in scripture to be only given to that , not a particuler congregation meeting in one place . i do not deny but the name is given as he saith , because of that confederacy in discipline among divers congregations in one city : yet neither the name nor the nature of a church must be denied to a single congregation ; for a church in scripture-language is a company met together to serve god : now this agreeth well to a single congregation ; seeing in it not only word and sacraments are administred , but also discipline is exercised , as shall anon appear . all that he saith proveth the former use of the word ; but nothing against this latter . 2. he speaketh of the government of these churches p. 352. and that 1. before parishes , or distinct congregations were settled . 2. after they were settled ( about which he largely disputeth when it began , which is not to our purpose ) in both cases , he saith , they were ruled in common ; and p. 354. that it is a weak conceit to think that after the setling of congregations , every one had a distinct presbytery to rule it , and p. 356. this crumbling saith he , of church-power into every congregation is a thing absolutely disowned by the greatest and most learned patrons of presbytery beyond the seas , as may be seen in calv. beza , salmasius , blondel , gerson , bucer and others . i do readily yield to him , that it is most probable that in times of persecution , particular congregations could not be soon settled : and than then , where there were in one city more christians then could meet in one place , they were ruled only in common , yea and had their meetings for worship occasionally as they could . also we grant that when congregations were settled , the several congregrations in one city were ruled by one common presbytery made up of the officers of them all : but that they had not their distinct presbyters that ruled them severally in subordination to this superior presbyters we utterly deny ; and i look upon it as a too supercilious assertion , to call this a weak conceit-seeing it is well known that it hath been the judgment of men with whom , for ability , i think mr. still . modesty will not suffer him to compare himself . but what ever be of the ability of them who own it ; there is reason for it so weighty , as may excuse it from weakness ; which is this : single congregations meeting ordinarily together for the worship of god , cannot but have many affairs that do only concern them , not the other churches or congregations in the same city ; as admission or exclusion of their members from the lords supper , rebuking them , consulting about the time and ordering of their administration &c. 't is very unfit to bring all these things , in prima instantia , to the presbytery that ruleth in common . this i confirm out of what himself hath written , p. 368. he saith that country churches had their own rulers who ruled them , though with subordination to those in the city : is there not the same reason why particular congregations , though in city should have their rulers ? 't is as really inconvenient to bring every matter of a city-congregation , at the first hand , to the common presbyters , as it is to bring the matters of a country parish to it . yet we acknowledge that it is to be ordered according as it conduceth most to the good of the church : neither if we should yield all that he saith , is it any thing against the divine right of parity . what he saith of these worthy divines disowning this power of particular congregations , we have cause to suspend our belief of it , till he bring some testimony of their own writings to prove it , which he hath not so much as essaid . it is like they were against independent power of particular congregations ; not their subordinate power : for the testimonies that he bringeth they prove no more than what we have granted , viz. that the congregations were ruled in common : not , that they had no particular government in each of them ; as any may easily see by considering them . neither is it any wonder that the records of antiquity speak of the acts of those greater , not of the lesser and congregational presbyteries : seeing matters coming before the latter were of so private concernment ; such as use not often to be so much taken notice of . the 3d thing he speaketh of in this first step of the growth of churches , is , what relation the churches in several cities had one to another , and to the lesser city , that were under them : and here he maintaineth that metropolitans are not of divine right ; to which we agree : i add , that in the first and more pure primitive times they had no being at all , as is clearly made out by diocl. altar . damasc. c. 2. where he sheweth that justine and jreneus have nothing of the different degrees of bishops : and that cyprian in the middle of the third century doth often assert their parity . the second step is , p. 368. when churches took in the villages and territories adjoining to that citie : he saith , that the city-presbyters did preach in these places , and adjoined the converts to the city-church ▪ till after , when they were increased in villages they got peculiar officers set over them , who did rule them , yet with subordination to the city-church . this last i only dislike : neither do i see it proved by him , for the titles of matrix ecclesia , et cathedra principalis signifie no more but a greater dignity and primacy of order , not of jurisdiction . what he saith of that eulogie , sending abroad consecrated pieces of bread , doth not prove the point : and also it was a superstitious custome : the bad improvement of it appeareth in the popish adoration of their hostia . his next step is p. 372. when churches did associate in one province : where he speaketh of provincial synods once a year , and sheweth that no bishop had power over another , but that their honour depended on their sees . thence he cometh to the last step , when the whole world became christians , and the bishops of rome and constantinople did strive for the place of universal bishop . i hope it appeareth to any who consider , that there is nothing yet said by him which can overturn the divine rite of parity , even to have been maintained in the primitive times ( i mean not of the last step he speaketh of , when papacy it self began to appear ) for all that hath been said sheweth that imparity was never judged of necessity ; and that the imparity which was used was rather of order than of jurisdiction , which is nothing against the divine rite of that parity we plead for . sect. 3. his 2d argument p. 374. is , that the same form was not of old observed in all churches : where he sheweth that in many places , there were no bishops ; as he proveth of scotland and other places . this we accept of , and add , that where there were bishops , it is not , nor cannot be by him proved , that they had any superior jurisdiction , but only precedency : and so the divine rite of parity may stand for all this . his 3d argument p. 377. is , that the government of the church was conform to the civil government , which he saith is insisted on by learned persons on all sides ; especially after the division of the roman empire . and he giveth some instances of it in the correspondency of civil prefects and arch-bishops in several places . to all this let me say a few words . 1. this argument destroyeth it self : for in the first antiquity which was the surest , the powers of the world were not christian , and so the church could not conform to the state in her offices . 2. it is here confessed , that this conformity was especially ( i believe it may be said only ) after that division of the roman empire : but those were the times when the man of sin had almost got into his chair ; and therefore their practice can prove nothing of the mind of the primitive church . 3. if this notion hold , then it must be looked upon as a lawful and prudent expedient , that there be one pope as there was one emperor . this mr. still . must maintain , or he saith nothing . 4. if this was their rite of old , then the church behoved to be under two chief bishops when the roman emperor was divided into two . but this he doth not alledge , but rather sheweth how it was divided into 13 diocesses . 5. if we receive this opinion , then in a kingdome there must be one head , who must have his councel of bishops , without a charge of the several diocesses ( for the kings council hath not precedency of several parts of the country ) and they must authorize their deputies , like sheriffs , yearly &c. and in a common-wealth there must be independant government : but this i hope the author will not own . 6. it is most unreasonable to say that the church-government should be conform to the civil ; because they are conversant about things and aim at ends so different : the one respecteth things that are most different in several nations , viz. mens civil interest , and customes and inclinations : the other respecteth that which ought to be every where the same , viz. religion . his 4. argument p. 379. is , that other episcopal government was settled in the church , yet presbyterian ordination was looked on as valid . this is not againt us . his last argument p. 382. is , that several restraints were laid on by councils about the observation of rites and customes and something of church-discipline ; but what is this i pray to parity or imparity ? we are not against determinations of indifferent things that concern order and decency : though we think that the form of government is determined by christ , not left to the will of man. chap. viii . in this chapter our author would make us believe , that all the world was ever of his opinion : and indeed this is so common for men to alledg , whatever be their singular notions of things , that we are not to lay much weight upon it . videlius took as much pains to make all reformed divines to speak for erastianism . i might excuse my self from medling any further with this last chapter of his . 1. from the needlesness of the thing ; because we do not build the divine right of presbytery on mens opinions , who we know can err , and therefore if all the world were against it , if the scripture be for it so must we . 2. from the disadvantage i lie under as to this part of the dispute with him . if i had been of mr. still . opinion in this point in controversie , i might through compliance with courses have been furnished with a good library and other conveniencies of studying , the want of which doth incapacitate me to search into the opinions of those worthy men which he citeth : in doing whereof , i hope it would not be difficult to shew that some of their testimonies are made to speak otherwise than they thought ; and others of them are irreconcilable with what themselves have elsewhere written . sect. 2. notwithstanding we shall essay briefly to say as much to his allegations , as may take off that edge they seem to have , for cutting asunder the cause which we maintain . p. 384. he hath a confident assertion . i believe , saith he , there will upon the most impartial survey , scarce be one church of the reformation brought which doth embrace any form of government , because it looked upon that form as only necessary by an unalterable standing law : but every one took up that form of government which was judged most sutable to the state and condition of the several churches . i wonder to see this so confidently asserted , without proof . it had been incumbent on mr. still . for confirming this his dream , to have gone through the confession of the several reformed churches ; and let us see on what ground they then built their church-government ; for it will not sufficiently prove what was the judgment of these churches , that some eminent men in them did assert such things : which latter of the two he only insisteth on , and that to little purpose too , as i hope shall appear . but the falsehood of this allegiance i will make appear afterwards , when i have tried the strength of the testimonies he bringeth for his opinions . sect. 3. he beginneth with them who have asserted the mutability of the form of government in thesi where he maketh it his chief business to shew , that the church of england of old was of this opinion . to which i answer , that those worthy men having nothing in their eye but episcopacy ; their work was to oppose the divine right of that : there was never an other form brought in competition with it , nor much minded by them : and therefore we agree with them in their design . of foreign divines , his first testimony is of chemnitius : to which i cannot give a particular answer , because not having his book i cannot try it : only this consideration i shall lay down , to take off the strength of it . neither mr. still , nor any man else ought to lay weight on this testimoney to the purpose it is brought for : for either he meaneth that the degrees of church-officers in respect of precedency are left free , or in respect of jurisdiction : if the first , it is nothing contrary to what we hold , for we acknowledg it indifferent , whether there be a standing precedent 〈◊〉 presbytery or not . if the second , he is directly contrary to mr. stillingfleet , who maintains , that the church may set up no new officers but what christ hath instituted ; as we have seen before : now an order of officers with jurisdiction above what christ hath instituted , cannot but be a sort of officers that he hath not instituted : wherefore mr. still . could not make use of this testimony , neither ought any else , for it crosseth the scripture ; which ( rom. 12. 6 , 7 , 8. ephes. 11. 1. 1 cor. 12. 28. ) doth on purpose enumerate the officers of the church in all their degrees . i dispute not now what they are ; but sure they are not left at liberty ; seeing the lord hath so often declared his mind in this point : to what purpose is it said that the lord hath in his church such and such officers ; if men may at their pleasure set these or others , more or fewer of them in the church . sect. 4. his next testimony is the centuriators of magdeburge , but it containeth an answer in its forehead , viz. that it speaketh not to the thing ; for they say no more but that it is neither recorded , nor commanded , how many ministers should be in each church ; but that their may be more or fewer , according to the number of the church . what is this to their parity or imparity ? 't is a token that he is very scant of witnesses , when he calleth in them who say so little to his purpose . the next testimony is of zanchy , which he maketh to speak very fair for him : but he hath unhandsomly concealed that which is the key to understand the meaning of this author ; for the reader may evidently see his drift , if he first look into sect. 9. ( de relig. c. 25. ) where he asserteth that christ hath only given to his church two sorts of ordinary teachers , viz. pastors and doctors : the same he asserteth , sect. 10. and yet ( which is his modesty ) he will not condemn the fathers who had other orders of officers : but what his meaning is , in this his condescendency , he explaineth sect. 11. that whereas in after ages , one pastor was set over the rest ( non ut dominus , sed ut rector in academia reliquis collegis , ) this he thinketh was lawful , and yet setteth this note upon that practice in the same sect. qua de re hieronymi tum alibi , tum in epist. ad evagr. & in commentar . epist. ad tit. c. 10. narratio & sententia nobis probatur , dicentis totum hoc magis ex consuetudine quam ex dominicae dispositionis veritate profectum esse . which is as much as to say , he thought it rather somewhat tolerable through necessity , than allowable . which small glance at the tolerableness of a precedency in the church ( if it may pass for so much ) was not well taken by other worthy divines ; as appeareth by zanchius's own observations on this his confession ( which mr. stilling . taketh notice of , but passeth what might make against him ) for magnus quidem vir , as zant. calleth him : who was well satisfied with the rest of his confession , excepteth this which he had said of the arch-bishops and hierarchie ; and that not only as what did dispease himself , but was unsutable to the harmony of confessions that the protestant churches were then drawing up : as appeareth by a part of an epistle of that magnus vir , to zan. which he inserteth to the preface to his observations . so that it seems , this was generally disliked by protestant divines , contrary to what mr. stilling . would make us believe , viz. that all the protestant churches thought the form of government indifferent . all which being laid together , let any then judg what great advantage mr. stilling's cause hath received from this testimony of zanchie . especially , if we consider with what weapon zan. defendeth this his opinion , viz. that it was generally practised by the ancient church ; and he would not take upon him to disallow them : as may be seen in his observations on chap. 25. of his confessions . we see he bringeth no better warrant than the practice of men who might , and did in many things err . but mr. stilling . telleth us of the same opinion of zan. de 4to praec . loc . 4. qu. 2. p. 943 , &c. and indeed he teacheth the same thing ▪ but with some advantage to our design : for , after he had made the ordinary officers to be of three sorts , viz. pastors , and doctors , and ruling-elders ( whose office he proveth from scripture , and asserteth as the opinion of the reformed divines generally ) and deacons : and had proved at length p. 950 , 951 , 952. presbyters and bishops to be the same in scripture : he sheweth p. 952 , 953. that in after-ages one of the presbyters was set over the rest : but addeth , to qualifie it p. 953. idcirco damnari haec , piae vetustatis ordinatio & consuetudo non potest , modo plus sibi authoritatis non usurpet episcopus quà habent reliqui ministri , ut recte monet hieronymus . here he overturneth all mr. stilling's design , for such a bishop is but a meer president . he thinks he hath gain'd another testimony from m. bucer , whom zan. in those his observations citeth : but mr. stilling ▪ hath not told us wherein bucer speaketh to his purpose ; wherefore take this account of bucer's opinion out of zanch. he citeth two large testimonies of bucer : the first is out of his commentary on the ephes. where he speaketh of seven kinds of teaching , viz. by reading , interpretation , instruction , ( doctrina ) exhortation , catechisms , disputing , private admonition : from which he saith , that in the ancient church they brought in seven kinds of teachers . now what is this to the parity or imparity of ministers ? he speaketh nothing here of setting a lord-bishop over his brethren , as a thing lawfully practised in the ancient church . yea , if we consider his discourse well , we shall find that these were not divers offices , but the work of the pastors divided among more , where there were many officers in one church : yet so as all might exercise ▪ all these duties ; and so here is no multiplication of offices beyond christ's institution . though i do not deny , that this distributing of the work of ministers did afterwards begin to be looked upon , as making several orders of officers : but this he doth not approve of . the second testimony of bucer is out of his de discipl . clerical . the sum of which is this ( for the words are too long to be transcribed ) ▪ that in the ancient church they set up a bishop among the presbyters ; vt consul inter senatores , ( this is devolving their power into his hands , which mr. still . pleadeth for ) that these bishops and presbyters did meet when occasion required , in synods ; that one was over the synod to convocate and moderate it , ( this is not to have jurisdiction over the rest ) who was called metropolitan , from the chief city , where he used to reside : then over the metropolitans were set up patriarchs ( but behold how careful he is to protest against imparity , as to jurisdiction ) of whom he saith , his tamen primatibus episcopis nihil omnino juris erat in alios episcopos aliasve ecclesias , ultra quod dixi cuique metropolitae in ecclesias atque episcopos suae provinciae : which , we took notice before , was to convocate and moderate the synod . at last he sheweth how among these patriarchs the bishop of rome was set up as chief : and then how all good order went to ruine . now let this testimony be considered , and we shall hope for more advantage by it , than mr. stilling . could expect . from it we draw these two conclusions : 1. that bucer looked upon setting up a precedent over presbyters , as the greatest length that the primitive church did or could go towards the making of imparity among ministers . 2. that even this their practice , though not unlawful in it self ; yet is so inconvenient , that it was the method and mean that antichrist got into his chair by . sect. 5. he cometh next to the french divines , and beginneth with fregevile , whose testimony we think not worth the answering , seeing as mr. still . confesseth , he was episcopal . his opinion did not suit well with the principles of that church he lived in , as we shall see after . the next is blondel , that learned writer for presbyters , as he is called : whose words cited by mr. still . are not at all to the purpose ; as any may see at first view ; seeing he saith no more , but , that it is in the churches power to make a perpetual precedent or not . for bochartus his opinion , that neither presbyterialis nor episcopalis ordo is juris divini : if he mean the difference between them in jurisdiction , and not only in precedency : i see not how it can be defended , and not having his book i cannot determine how consistent it is with his own principles . for amiraldus , whom he bringeth next , his design of union with the lutherans , i believe , did either stretch his opinion or made him stretch his affections to an excess of condescendency ; which cannot be excused but from his good intention . sect. 6. our author cometh next to those who look on parity as the primitive form , and yet allow episcopacy as a very lawful and usefull constitution . concerning those , i premise 2 general remarques . 1. that what these worthy divines say to this purpose is to be understood , not of episcopus princeps , but praeses , according to that distinction very common among them . this we must hold as only consistent with their principles , till the contrary be proved out of their own writings . 2. that many things said by them to this purpose were the over reaches of their desire to be one with them who differed from them in this , but agreed in most things as the lutherans and some english divines : they did often ( as smect . saith of spanhem to the same purpose , p. 65. ) deliver a complement rather than their judgment . but to come to particulars : he beginneth with cracanthorp , who excuseth all the reformed churches from aerianism , because they held not imparity to be unlawful . but this man was a son of the church of england ( as they speak ) and wrote in her defence against ant. de domin . wherefore his testimony of the opinion of the reformed churches is not to be taken , being willing to have them all think as he did . they are better defended from siding with aerius by smect . p. 79. where it is proved , that aerius was condemned for his arianism and other errors , but not for holding the divine right of parity : and that jerome , augustus , sedulius , primatius , chrisostome , theodoret , oecumenius , theophylact , were of the same opinion with aerius in this . next he bringeth the augustane confession : of the testimony of which i have these 3 things to say . 1. this was not a confession of them who are ordinarily called the reformed churches ; but of the lutherans ; for at the same meeting at augusta did zuinglius and the helvetians give in their confession apart , by themselves : wherefore it is no wonder , if these worthy men , who were a reforming , but had not attained to that pitch of it which others had , did retain some small tincture of the way according to which they had been bred in this point . 2. luther himself was not well pleased with this confession , as appeareth by the relation of pezelius , who ( mellifie . histor. par . 3. p. 336. ) saith thus . autor vero confessionis cum luthero qui in pontifioiis concessum stomachabatur confessionem rudem magis magisque ne spiritum extingueret , limabat , poliebat , et duriuscula , fermentumque vetus redolentiaexpurgabat : via enim justi sicut aurora lucere pergit usque ad meridiem , id quod ex ipsa apologia apparet . 3. all that is said in this confession , is no more but an expression of their desire to conform and condescend to the papists in the primitive order of the church : but this was no more but the precedency of bishops ; the confession speaketh not of the lordly power of bishops as it then stood ; that they could yield to that : so that even the furthest they go , in their complemental condescendency , doth not help mr. still 's cause ; who pleadeth for the sole jurisdiction of bishops as lawful . sect. 7. in the next place , he is not ashamed to force calvin to speak for the lawfulness of episcopacy , which he could never comport with while he lived . he bringeth his instit. lib. 4. c. 4. sect . 1. & 4. in both which sections he alledgeth no more out of him but this ; that the ancient bishops had almost nothing in their canons which was beside the word of god : and that they used no other form of governing the church , than was prescribed in the word . what doth this help his cause ? the ancient bishops in calvins judgment , were no more but praesides : these , he saith , were not constituted beside the word of god. this is nothing to the scope of our authors discourse . i hope after to shew that calvin was far from his mind . at present let it suffice to observe , that the very words cited by mr. still . do make against him . for when calvin saith , si rem omisso vocabulo , intuemur , reperiemus veteteres episcopos non aliam regendae ecclesiae formam voluisse fingere ab ea , quam deus verbo suo praescripsit : it is not evident , that he supposeth god in his word to have prescribed a form of church-government . and 2dly , that he asserteth , that the ancient bishops ( if we look to the thing , and do not understand the name [ bishop ] as now it is used for the prelate ) did stick close to this form ; what could be more directly against mr. still . ? neither is he more happy in the citing of beza for him : for beza's distinction of bishop is well known , in divinus , i. e. presbyter ; humanus , i. e. &c. a president or constant moderator ; & diabolicus , i. e. a prelate with sole jurisdiction . the indifferency of the 2d he asserteth , and will not prescribe that form used at geneva ( which was without such a fixed president ) to other churches : but what is this to the purpose ? it is a pity to see a learned man at so much pains , and lose his labour . it being so as hath been shewed . mr. still . doth fouly misrepresent the state of the controversie about church-government , that was between the church of england and of geneva in queen elizabeths time : it was not , as he alledgeth , whether parity or episcopacy were more convenient : but whether prelacy putting sole jurisdiction in the hand of a bishop , or giving him power over his brethren , were lawful . sect. 8. next he bringeth george prince of anhalt , luther , melancton , and calvin , professing their readiness to submit to bishops , if they would do the duty of bishops . all which amounts to no more than this , that if bishops would keep within bounds , not usurp authority over their brethren , nor use it to the destruction of religion , they might be born with ; but this maketh nothing for the lawfulness of prelacy , which these men did ever detest . for jacobus heerbrandus , i am not acquainted with his principles , nor his book . hemingius ( who cometh next ) speaketh expresly of dispares dignitatis ordines , not authoritatis ; and so cometh not up to the thing in question . for zepper his judgment of the necessity of a superintendent , it destroyeth our authors hypothesis ; for if it be necessary , it is not indifferent . if in any case such a thing be necessary , it is in that case lawful , ( nam necessitas quicquid coegit defendit ) in other cases it is unlawful . what he saith of bishops in some lutheran churches , as sweden , denmark , &c. doth not weigh with us , knowing that they err in greater matters also . what he saith of other churches that have their praepositi or seniores enjoying the same power with ancient bishops ; proveth nothing of the lawfulness of prelacy ; we think their way lawful : and whether it be convenient to them , or not , we judg not , but to us , sad experience hath proved it most inconvenient . the next thing that he insisteth on , viz. episcopal divines , holding episcopacy not necessary , it doth not concern us to answer , and so we see to what amounteth the strength of these testimonies , which he would fright us with , as if all men were of his judgment . sect. 9. having now seen of what force are our authors witnesses , brought for the indifferency of the form of church-government ; let us see if there can be more pregnant authority brought for the divine right of it . i do not question but many sheets may be filled with pertinent citations to this purpose , by one better stored with writings of our reformed divines , and having leisure to search them . i shall give some instances , such as my poor library doth afford , both of churches and of particular divines . and before the restorers of the truth , i shall mention those famous conservators of it in the darkest times of antichristianism , the waldenses , whom some of our divines call majores nostros : their opinion in this may be seen in waldensiâ confes. taboritarum per joa . lukawitz . cap. 3. p. 5. lex evangelica jesu christi — per se sufficientissima ad regimen ecclesiae militantis , &c. 14. p. 32. nos qui pro lege liberrima jesu christi per se sufficienti , ad regimen ecclesiae militantis , sine ceremoniis legis veteris & ritibus humantis post adjectis , scientes , quia securissimum est & optimum magisterium ecclesiae primitivae , quam regebant apostoli , actus imitari . we see here the sufficiency of scripture for church-government asserted , and that without new laws or humane devices ; which could not be if the particular form were not determined in it , but left to mens devising : also , that apostolick practice is in this a rule to us ; both which militate against mr. stilling's discourse . i shall next bring the opinion of the french and the dutch churches , held forth in their confessions : which i have out of smect . sect . 14. the french church artic. 29. 30. speaketh thus : credimus veram ecclesiam gubernari debere , eâ politiâ quam dominus noster jesus christus sancivit ( then it may not be such as men think fit , nor is it indifferent ) ita , viz. aut sui in ea pastores , presbyteri , sive seniores & diaconi ( then christs institution is against bishops , seeing he appointeth the rest , and leaveth them out ) ut doctrinae puritas retineatur . credimus omnes pastores ubicunque collocati sint , eadem & aequali potestate inter se esse praeditos ( then there can be no imparity of power ) sub uno illo capite & solo universali episcopo jesu christi . the dutch church , art. 30. thus : credimus veram hanc ecclesiam debere regi ac gubernari , spirituali illa politia quam nos deus ipse in verbo suo edocuit , ita ut sint in ea pastores ac ministri , qui purè & concionentur & sacramenta administrent , sint etiam seniores & diaconi , qui ecclesiae senatum constituant ; ut his veluti mediis vera religio conservari , hominesque vitiis dediti spiritualiter corripi , & emendari possint . tunc enim rite & ordinate omnia fiunt in ecclesiâ , cum viri fideles & pii ad ejus gubernationem deliguntur , juxta pauli praescriptum 1 tim. 3. caeterum ubicunque locorum sint verbi dei ministri , eandem atque aequalem omnes habent tum potestatem tum authoritatem : ut qui sint aequè omnes christi unici illius universalis episcopi & capitis ecclesiae ministri . what hath ever been the opinion of the church of scotland about the divine right of presbyterial government , is so well known , that i need not mention it : also what hath been the judgment of the presbyterian ministers of england , both in the national synod of famous memory , and the provincial assembly of london , who have written for the jus divinum of it . sect. 10. to this truth also , the famous professors of london bear their joint testimony . synops. pur. theol. disp. 48. thes. 23. nec tamen propterea concedimus à solo aliquo episcopo , sive romano , sive eugobino , ex motu proprio aut plenaria authoritate , ut loquimur , hanc potestatem posse vendicari : sed rectorum ac presbyterorum ecclesiae , concilium , totiusque adeo ecclesiae aut apertum , aut tacitum consensum , adhibendum esse ; ex praescripto christi ac purioris ecclesiae praxi asserimus . and this they prove , thes. 24. because that [ tell the church ] cannot be understood of one bishop . calvin is clear for us ; for he maketh the officers of the church to be by christs institution ; and sheweth who they are that he hath instituted . instit. lib. 4. c. 3. sect . 4. also , c. 4. sect . 1. he sheweth how in the primitive church , they studied carefully to adhere to god's institution in the government of the church . and on phil. 1. 1. reproving the usurpation of bishops , he saith , perinde ac si non omnes presbyteri collegae essent ad eandem vocati functionem , unus sibi , praetextu novae appellationis dominium in alios arripuit . sect. 11. i close with a short answer ( such as it deserveth ) to his last assault ; which is p. 416. if prudence must be used in setling church-government , as he saith is confessed by independents in their elective synods : by presbyterians in their subordination of courts , classical-assemblies : episcopal men in several things . ans. all this is nothing of the particular form of government , parity or imparity , and so nothing to the purpose . we absolutely deny that that is to be setled by prudence ; but by the institution of christ ; though many circumstances in government must be determined by prudence , guided by scripture-light . for his advice in order to peace , it containeth many good things ; yet cannot we fully close with it , till he establish on better grounds than we have yet seen , the basis of it , viz. the indifferency of the particular form of church-government . finis . an advertisement of several books lately printed , and sold by richard janeway . moral reflections on the number of the elect , plainly proving from scripture-evidence , &c. that not one of an hundred thousand ( nay probably not one of a million ) from adam down to our days , shall be saved . price 6 d. an appeal of all the nonconformists in england , to god and all the protestants of europe , in order to manifest their sincerity in point of obedience to god , and the king. to which is added a sober and unpassionate reply to the author of the lively picture of lewis dumonlin , both written by dr. l. du moulin , late history-professor of oxford . price 6 d. the last speeches of mr. john kid , and mr. john king , the two ministers that were executed at edenburgh the 14th of august 1679. price 6 d. a letter to a friend about the proclamation for proroguing the parliament to november 1680. a catalogue of the names of all the martyrs that were executed in queen maries days , with the particular time when , and places where . price 2 d. a reply to mr. rutherfurd, or a defence of the answer to reverend mr. herles booke against the independency of churches. vvherein such objections and answers, as are returned to sundry passages in the said answer by mr. samuel rutherfurd, a godly and learned brother of the church of scotland, in his boke entituled the due right of presbyters, are examined and removed, and the answer justified and cleared. / by richard macher [sic] teacher to the church at dorchester in new england. 1646. mather, richard, 1596-1669. 1647 approx. 445 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 67 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2009-03 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a88948 wing m1275 thomason e386_9 estc r201478 99861982 99861982 114129 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a88948) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 114129) images scanned from microfilm: (thomason tracts ; 61:e386[9]) a reply to mr. rutherfurd, or a defence of the answer to reverend mr. herles booke against the independency of churches. vvherein such objections and answers, as are returned to sundry passages in the said answer by mr. samuel rutherfurd, a godly and learned brother of the church of scotland, in his boke entituled the due right of presbyters, are examined and removed, and the answer justified and cleared. / by richard macher [sic] teacher to the church at dorchester in new england. 1646. mather, richard, 1596-1669. [12], 80, 71-109 [i.e. 119], [1] p. printed for j. rothwell, and h. allen at the sun and fountaine in pauls church-yard, and the crown in popes-head alley, london : 1647. text is continuous despite pagination. annotation on thomason copy: "may 8th". "macher" is altered in ms. to "mather" on t.p. reproduction of the original in the british library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng rutherford, samuel, 1600?-1661. -due right of presbyteries -early works to 1800. herle, charles, 1598-1659 -early works to 1800. church of scotland -government -early works to 1800. independant churches -england -early works to 1800. congregationalism -early works to 1800. presbyterianism -early works to 1800. church polity -early works to 1800. 2007-03 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-03 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2008-07 john latta sampled and proofread 2008-07 john latta text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a reply to mr. rutherfurd , or , a defence of the answer to reverend mr. herles booke against the independency of churches . vvherein such objections and answers , as are returned to sundry passages in the said answer by mr. samuel rutherfurd , a godly and learned brother of the church of scotland , in his booke entituled the due right of presbyters , are examined and removed , and the answer justified and cleared . by richard ma●her teacher to the church at dorchester in new england . 1646. london , printed for j. rothwell , and h. allen at the sun and fountaine in pauls church-yard , and the crown in popes-head alley , 1647 , the authors preface to the reader . christian reader , having published some yeares agoe , a small treatise , in way of a brotherly answer to reverend master herle ; i now present unto thy view a defence thereof against such objections and answers as have been returned to sundry passages therein , by reverend and learned master rutherfurd . in which undertaking it hath been farre from my intention to increase or uphold the differences that have appeared of late yeares in england amongst the servants of the lord , about matters of church government . for i had much rather bring prayers and teares for the quenching of such fires , then fewell or oyle for the increasing thereof : neither shall the same i hope , be any thing at all increased by what here i present now thy view . at the least this i may say , that i intended no such thing but the contrary , even the promoting of truth and peace , if it were the will of god so to blesse my desires and endeavors . true it is , i have taken the liberty to consider and try some things delivered by that reverend brother whom here i have to doe withall , but this i trust cannot be justly offensive , in as much as the spirit of the prophets is subject to the prophets , 1 cor. 14. 32. and the doctrine of the apostle himselfe was examined by those noble bereans , whom the holy ghost commendeth for searching the scriptures daily , whether those things were so act. 17. 11. it is also true which our reverend brother saith in his epistle to the reader , before his peaceable plea , that there is great cause of sorrow that all the lords people should not minde one thing , and sing one song , and joyne in one against the children of babel . neverthelesse , this may be some comfort against this sorrow , that by the providence of the lord this diversity of opinions and disputes , if it be christianly carried as it may , may occasion and produce in the issue the further clearing up of truth . for as our author well observeth , from the collision of opinions resulteth truth : and disputes as stricken flints cast fire for light . due right of presbyt . epistle to the reader . the desire and hope whereof , together with the advice of such brethren as i consulted withall , was that which chiefely prevailed with me for the publishing of this reply , wherein the reader will finde sundry scriptures and questions controverted in these times , discussed and considered so farre as the nature of a reply or defence did lead thereto ; and i hope some or other through gods blessing may receive some profit thereby . and if the humble christian who desires to know , and love and practise the truth , shall receive any benefit or help for attaining these ends by meanes of this labour of mine , it is that which i intended and aimed at , and for which i desire that god alone may have the praise and glory . if any shall still remaine otherwise minded ; yet in due time i hope god shall reveale even this unto them . in the meane time , diversity of apprehensions in these points ought not to bred any alienation of affection amongst those that are otherwise orthodoxe , and sincere . it were a thousand pitties , if it should . for my part , i cannot but approve what this reverend brother sometime professeth , that he doth both love and dispute , contradict and reverence at once : peaceable plea : epist . yea , he counts himselfe a debtor for love , charity , honour and all due respect in christ jesus , and a seat and lodging in his heart and highest esteeme to all those that be godly , lovers of the truth , and sufferers for the truth against prelacy , though possibly they like not well of presbyteriall government : ibid. in answer whereto ( for i would be loth that such love should be lost upon us , without due returne of the like ) i would for my part professe the like deare and due respect to all those that are qualifyed as here he doth describe ( of which sort i know there are many ) though possibly they may like better of the way that is called presbyteriall , then of the congregationall . for those that give apparent testimonies that they are the lord's , and so that they must live together in heavens , i know not why they should not love one another on earth , what ever differences of apprehensions may for the present be found amongst them in some things . as for bitternesse of spirit and tartnesse of contests , i never thought that to be gods way of promoting truth amongst brethren , and therefore i have endevoured in this discourse to avoid the same . for i beleeve there is more hope of doing good by solidity of argument with a spirit of meeknesse and love , then by sharp and tart language , the fruit of bitternesse of spirit , wherein for the most part right of reason is wanting , the passions being there most vehement and stirring , where the intellectuals are most ●eeble and weake . now if any aske why this defence hath been so long deferred , it being now two yeares and more since master rutherfurd his due right of presbyt . came forth , such may be pleased to consider that new england being as 't is counted 3000 miles distant from old ; therefore many books may be extant in england a long time afore we that are so remote can so much as heare any sound thereof : and those few that come to our knowledge , are commonly extant in england a matter of a yeares space afore , and sometimes longer . in which respect many things may be spoken and printed against us , whereto it cannot be expected that we should returne any speedy answer . and though it be now twelve moneths agoe or more since master rutherfurd his due right of presbyt . came to my hands , yet at that time my few spare houres from my constant and ordinary employments were wholly taken up otherwise , so that i could not attend this businesse any sooner : which i desire may be accepted as a just apologie for the late coming forth of this reply ; which as it may seeme late , so it is more large then in some respect i could have desired , by reason that i doe usually transcribe those words of master rutherfurd , whereto i d●e apply my answer ; which course i confesse i did not unwillingly ( in some respects ) chuse , partly to save the reader a labour of turning to the place in master rutherfurd which i am speaking too ; which else he must have done , or have taken things upon my report upon trust ; and partly that my candid and faire dealing with the author , whom i have to doe withall might the better appeare . for when a mans words are not kept , but forsaken , and others substituted in their place , his minde and meaning may soone be mistaken , and represented amisse unto the reader . which is a practise that i have often seene , but never approved ; and therefore i have not used it . for i would be loth to wrong any man ; specially a man of such worth as i take master rutherfurd to be , by imputing to him what he doth not teach nor deliver : and for this cause it is that i have usually transcribed and expressed his owne words ; and by this meanes my booke is growne to the greater bulk . one thing more i would advertise the reader of , and then i shall quickly have done : the figures from 185 and so forward , noting the number of the pages in master rutherfurd his treatise , are set downe twice therein , once in their proper place , and againe after the page 484. wherefore if any of these pages be quoted in this reply , as some of them are , if the thing that is alleaged be not found in the page that is named , looke for it in the other place of the booke where are the same figures , and there you may finde it . courteous reader , study the truth in a way of piety and peace : be zealous for it , but lose not love to the saints : beware , when the world is filled with disputes about discipline , that thou be not drawne onely to erroneous opinions in maine matters of doctrine . be sure to practise and expresse the power of godlinesse in humility of minde , mortification of thy own corruption , faith in the lord jesus , and love to all his redeemed ; and be not by any meanes drawne away from these things , which doe so mainly conduce to thy salvation . finally as the holy ghost saith , phil. 4. 8 , 9. whatsoever things are true , whatsoever things are honest , whatsoever things are just , whatsoever things are lovely , pure , and of good report , if there be any vertue , if there be any praise , thinke on these things , and doe them ; and the god of peace shall be with thee . improve i pray such interest as thou hast in god through the mediator , by affording the help of thy prayers for me , who am truly desirous of thy salvation , r. m. decemb. 10. 1646. a table of the contents of the ensuing treatise . chap. 1. of appeales from particular congregations , and the true cause of appeales , and whether by mr rutherford his doctrine in this point there must not be appeales to generall counsells , whose power of iurisdiction he doth not yet deny . page . 2. chap. 2. of the power of synods to give advite and counsell , and whether from thence it doth follow that they have no power to command . page . 11. chap. 3. of the assembly , acts. 15. whether they did exercise any power of iurisdiction , against the obtruders of circumcision , and whether their rebuking of them does argue the affirmative . page . 15. chap. 4. of the dogmaticall power of synods : and of the power of congregations to determine matters amongst themselves , if ability serve thereto . page . 21. chap. 5. againe of that assembly acts. 15. whether their rebuking the false teachers do prove a power of iurisdiction and excommunication in synods : and whether preaching do prove the assembly where it is , to be a church . page . 24. chap. 6. whether the power of synods be a power of iurisdiction ; and of the dependance of the synagogues upon the synedrion at ierusalem . page . 30. chap. 7. whether the lawfulnesse or necessity of appeales doe prove a superiority of iurisdiction in synods over congregations , and of sundry sayings of our author which seeme to interfere . page . 39. chap. 8. whether antioch acts. 15. had right to have ended the controversie amongst themselves , if they had bin able , and whether their sending to jerusalem for helpe , or their knowledge that other churches were troubled with the like evill , or the party among themselves who were against the truth , do prove the contrary . and of supremacy of power in congregations . page . 49. chap. 9. whether the congregationall way or the presbyteriall do make the gospel more defective , then the law of excommunication by a church that hath onely three elders , and of doing things suddenly . page . 66. chap. 10. whether the necessity of discipline be greater then of sacraments : and whether a congregation that hath neighbours may not exercise entirenesse of iurisdiction , as well as one that hath none ; and whether a man may take on him the whole minestry , having no outward calling thereto ; and may not as well take on him one act of baptising or ministring the lords supper . page . 75. chap. 11. whether the power of iurisdiction flowing immediately from the essence of a church , doe not agree to a church that hath neighbours , as well as to a church that hath none ; and whether otherwise neighbouring churches be not a losse . and whether pretence of male-administration be a sufficient reason for neighbouring churches to deprive a congregation of its power . page . 93 chap. 12. whether it be against the light of nature that the adverse party be iudge , and whether mr rutherford can safely say that none of them do so teach ; and whether this saying , that parties may not be iudges , do make against entirenesse of power in a congregation , any more then in a generall or nationall councell . page . 104. chap. 13. whether the churches at thessalonica and jerusalem , were each of them more then one congregation , and of mr. baynes his judgement therein . of the assembly mentioned luke . 12. and whether our saviour did there speake to his disciples onely , or to all the people also . page . 112. chap. 14. whether the church at corinth was one church meeting distributively in sundry congregations , or whether it was onely one congregation . and whether 1 cor. 14. 23. if the whole church come together in some place , &c. doe make for sundry congregations or for one onely . page . 123. chap. 15. whether the church at ephesus were more in number then corinth and jerusalem ; and the judgement of mr baynes whether that church was many congregations or one onely . page . 137. chap. 16. whether the church at antioch was onely one congregation : and whether acts. 14. 27. and 15. 30. doe not prove the affirmative . page . 140. chap. 17. whether or no liberties are given by christ to the people , but women must exercise the same as well as men . and of the peoples liberty about ordination , or the calling of ministers . page . 146. chap. 18. of mr rutherfords report of synodicall propositions in new-england . page . 151. chap. 19. of the appeales of luther and cranmer , and of the power of iurisdiction in generall councels denied by mr. rutherford ; whether therein be doe not contradict himselfe , and also overthrow the iurisdiction of classicall , provinciall , and nationall assemblies . page . 153. chap. 20. if it were granted that the light of nature teacheth all societies to end in monarchies , whether would it not follow that the government of churches must so end , as well as that congregations must depend on the government of synods , because the light of nature teacheth a communion in government to other societies . and whether the multitude of grecians and hebrewes , who ch●se the seven deacons acts. 6. were two congregations , or one onely . page . 159. chap. 21. whether congregations may be excommunicated by classes and synods , by vertue of those words ▪ mat. 18. tell the church , as containing a rule and remedy for all offences , or at the least a church remedy for the offences of churches and church members . and if yea , whether it would not thereupon follow , that a nationall church must have the benefit of this remedy as well as others ; and so have no independency of iurisdiction within it selfe , but be subject to the jurisdiction of generall counsels , which yet mr. rutherford doth deny . page . 164. chap. 22. when the supreame magistrate is a professed enemy to religion , whether then it be likely and usuall , that the greater part of the people are sincerely religious , and whether when the greater part are enemies with their magistrates , it be then the duty of a few that are sincere , to assemble in a nationall synod , and there to enter into a nationall covenant , and also to injoyne the same unto that greater part . page . 170. chap. 23. whether the word church be not given to a single congregation : and whether a congregation be a company or church-meeting onely for word and sacraments , and not for any other spirituall duties : and whether the divers duties , 1. of word and sacraments , 2. of discipline , &c. must needs argue divers churches . page . 175. chap. 24 whether those children of israell numb . 8. 10. who laid hands on the levites were elders by office , and as so considered did lay on their hands . and whether this scripture do not prove , that where there are no elders to be had , there some principall members though no elders by office , may impose hands on church-officers . page . 180 chap. 25. whether a ministers calling consist in election or imposition of hands , and whether of these is greater , and whether is prior or posterior . whether 1 tim. 4. 14. acts. 6 2 , 3 , 4. acts. 13. 1 , 2 , 3. doe prove that the ministers calling consists in imposition of hands by the presbeterie , and that such imposition of hands is not a consummatory rite or benedictory signe . also whether rom. 10. 15. do prove that a man cannot be a minister , except some presbyterie ordaine him before the people choose him , and whether otherwise the people doe send a minister to themselves . and whether the people of god may not as well discerne a mans fitnesse to be ordained , as his fitnesse to be elected . page . 196. chap. 26. whether the epistles to timothy and titus wherein there are contained rules of direction in laying on of hands , do prove that this action may not in any case be performed by non-officers , but must be performed onely by presbyteries ; and whether the argument do not make as strongly for the appropriating of laying on of hands to the prelates , as to the presbyteries , and do not as well exclude the presbyteries from medling therein , as exclude the people . page . 206. to the christian reader . in the yeare 1643. there came forth a treatise against independency , under the name of my reverend and learned brother mr. charles herle , the pastor of winwick in lancashire . this treatise , because it seemed to bee written with such a candid and peaceable spirit as might witnesse for its author that the thing he aymed at therein was meerly the disquisition of the truth ; and because the author thereof was many yeares agoe of my reverend brother mr. tompsons acquaintance and mine ; therefore we thought it might not be in vaine if we should lovingly communicate to the learned author such apprehensions of ours , whereby wee were detained from concurring with his judgement in the principall question disputed in the said treatise . and therefore in the latter end of the same yeare , there came forth a small script under our name in way of a brotherly answer to that his loving and learned treatise . against this answer mr. samuell rutherford a learned writer of the church of scotland , hath alledged and published many objections . exceptions , and answers , in his booke entituled the due right of presbyteries : i may call them many , because in that treatise of his there are no lesse then 24 or 25 severall places , wherein he bring up by name the said answer , disputing against sundry passages therein as if they were not sound ; which passages if they be indeed erronious and unsound , are a great many to bee contained and found in so small a work the whole booke as it is now printed containing in it 30. leaves : so that the leaves in the booke are not much more then the places therein which this learned writer doth object against ; which being considered , i thought it therefore needfull to peruse and weigh as the lord should helpe , the severall places of his fore-mentioned treatise , wherein he deales against the said answer : and having so done , i here present my apprehentions to publike view , leaving the prudent and judicious reader to consider and judge ; whether this reverend and learned brother have sufficiently overthrowne or weak'ned the said answer , or whether the same doe not still remaine agreable to the rule of truth , notwithstanding his objections against the same , or such answers as he doth returne to severall passages therein . chap. i. of appeales from particular congregations and the true cause of appeales ; and whether by mr. rutherford his doctrine in this point there may not be appeales to generall councils , whose power of iu●isdiction he doth yet deny . first of all in his page 315. ( for that is the first place wherein i find him medling with the answer ) speaking of doubts concerning math. 18. 17. tell the church ; in a 9 . th objection about that scripture , besides other particulers hee hath these words , viz. there is no reason to appeale to a higher iudicature because the inferiour may erre , because all above a congregation are courts which may erre ; presbyteries provinciall , nationall , the universall councill of the catholicke church may erre : and then for author of this part of the objection hee subjoyneth my name , and answer to mr. herle , cap. 2. pag. 13 , 14. answ . when hee is discoursing of doubts concerning that scripture , math 18. tell the church , i know no reason why hee should bring those words of mine at such a time or for such a purpose . for though i doe acknowledge that i wrote the words which hee hath set downe or such like , in the place by him alledged ; yet that they were brought by me for such purpose as hee doth report ( viz. for the cleering of doubts concerning the meaning of math. 18 17. ) that i doe utterly deny . he that shall looke upon the chapter and pages alledged , will find that i doe not there meddle at all with that scripture , either for one purpose or another ; and therefore cannot be truly said to have used the words alledged , in way of cleering doubts concerning the same . and albeit in another place , ( cap. 3. pag. 22. et sequ . ) i doe purposely speake to that scripture ; yet in that place there is no mention at all of the words by him alledged nor of any such like , and where such words are to be found , there that scripture is not mentioned at all . now who knoweth not that a man may be much wronged , when the words which hee hath spoken are taken and applyed to such a purpose , for which he did never bring them nor intend them . but to let this passe , let us heare what our reverend author saith against the words alledged , in his answer . the cause of appeales , saith he , is not because inferiour iudicatures may erre , for so wee might appeale from all iudicatures , even from a generall councill , for it may erre , pag. 315. lin . ult . answ . is not this the very same that was said in the answer , pag. 13 , 14. the pages which hee here undertakes to answer , is it not there said ; as for classicaticall provinciall , and nationall synods , there is none of these but those cases of deficiency and possibility of partiality may befall the best of them ; and therefore if for these causes the single congregations may not be indep●ndant , but there may be appeales from them , the synods being subject to the like , there may bee liberty of appeales from them also — . for as the congregations may be partiall and erre , so we suppose it will not be denyed but the classis may erre , the provinciall synod may erre , the nationall may erre , yea generall councils may erre ; and so by this reason not synods nor generall councils may have entirenesse of jurisdiction , but there may be liberty of appeales from them also . these are our words in those very pages which here mr. rutherford pretends to answer and disprove or confute . but in stead of a confutation we see we have nothing but a plaine confession or affirmation of his owne , that the thing is even so as was affirmed by us before . now why hee should make a show of taking away or weak'ning that which we had said , and then in stead of accomplishing what he undertakes , to doe no more but onely to say the same thing againe which wee had said before , what reason i say he had for this i know not ; but plaine it is that for the particular in hand , the answer which he pretends to weaken , is not yet weakned at all , but rather strengthned and confirmed by his apparent yeelding the cause , and affirming the same that was before affirmed by us . but saith hee pag. 316. the true cause ( viz. of appealing to higher courts ) is , 1. because they doe not so frequently erre . 2. they are not so inclined and disposed to erre ; for many eyes see more then one , and doe more seldome miscarry in taking up the right object : 3. because wee conceive more equality and lesse partiality in higher courts . answ . these three reasons seeme much what the same , or to hang one upon another ; for therefore they doe more seldome erre because they are not so disposed and inclined to erre , and they are not so inclined because they are more in number , and because there is in them more equality and lesse partiality : so that upon the matter it is but one reason , viz. because though they may erre , yet not so frequently and likely as the congregation . yet ( be they three reasons , or be they but one ) let us consider what force there is in this sa●ing to take away entirenesse of iurisdiction from a congregation , and to establish the necessity of appealing from the same unto a synod , for this is the thing that should be cleared . first of all it may be a question , whether synods doe more seldome erre then the presbyteries of congregations : and the reason of the doubt is ; because the promise of the presence of ch●●st is not made meerly to multitude or greatnesse of number ; but if they bee but two or three gathered together in his name , his promise is that hee will be present in the midst of them , math. 18. 20. now the promise of his presence being to so small a number gathered together in his name , why may not a congregation and its presbyterie being so gathered , though they be a lesser number then synods and councels ; yet bee partakers of the benefit of this promise , for the preserving of them from error , as well as those greater assemblies ? 〈…〉 not but in multitude of counsellers there is safety : nor doe i doubt but synods and council● gathered together in the name of christ , may expect the per●●●●ance of this promise of our saviours presence : but the thing i doubt of is this , whether a congregationall church of saints , furnished with an able and ●aithfull presbyterie ( for of such onely doe i speake ) may not by vertue of this promise bee as frequently preserved fro● error as those greater assemblies of synods and councils , posito that the synods and counci●ls did as frequently come together as the congregation doth : for otherwise i grant , the synods meeting more seldome may erre more seldome : but let the comparison be equall in respect of the time of assembling and comming together , and then i doubt whether synods 〈◊〉 preserved from error any oftener then the fore-mentioned lesser assemblies . it is well knowne what n●zianzen said of synods or councils in his time , viz. that hee had never seene good and happie end of any of them , and that evils were not so much redressed as increased thereby . epist . ad procop●um , quae est numere 42. referr . whitak de concill . q. 1. cap. 3. true it is , nazianzen lived as dr. whi●●● observeth , pessimis & turbulentissimia ecclesiae temporibus , in very corrupt and troublesome titues , when by reason that valens the emperour was averse from the truth , h●retickes much prevailed and corruptions greatly increased ; and this might make the good man something more to dislike all councils then there was cause . neverthelesse his words doe apparently witnesse , that in his time synods and councils did not seldome erre but very often ; so that hee for his part had never seene good that had come by any of them . then which saying i suppose one would not speake more hardly of a particular congregation and its presbyterie ; and therefore by this testimony of his my doubt is increased ; whether the matter be in 〈…〉 mr. rutherford doth say , viz. that synods and councils doe rariùs erra●● , more seldome erre then such a particular congregation as here i am speaking of . but suppose it were so as hee doth affirme ( and i will not deny it , onely as i said i doubt of it ) yet i doe not see what great matter hee can gaine thereby for the furthering of his purpose , that there must be liberty of appeales from particular congregations unto classes and synods , as unto higher courts . for if this be the reason 〈◊〉 such appeales , because such assemblies doe more seldome erre , because many eyes doe see more , and doe more seldome miscary in taking up the right object ; then it will follow that the greatest assemblies , in as much as they have the most eyes , doe of all others most seldome erre , and so to them there must bee the most appeales . for the learned author well knowes , à quatenùs ad omni● valet consequentia . and so by this meanes the true cause and reason of appeales lying ( according to mr. rutherford his apprehension ) in the rarenesse and seldomnesse of erring in such assemblies to whom appeales are made , and the cause of this seldomnesse of erring lying in the multitude and great number of eyes in such assemblies , it must needs thereupon follow , that vniversall or generall councils as having in them the most eyes , are the assemblies that doe most seldome erre , and so un●o them there must be most appeales . which if it be gran●ed , the classicall , 〈◊〉 , and nationall synods , are all by this meanes deprived and stri●t of 〈◊〉 of ●●●●diction as well as the particular congregations , the synods by 〈◊〉 to generall councils , as to those that doe ra●iùs c●rare , aswell as the 〈…〉 appeales unto the synods : and so thera must be no entirenesse of 〈…〉 onely in the generall councils , but from all other synods there must 〈◊〉 liberty of appeales , aswell as from the congregation . this consequence for ought i see doth unavoidably follow upon that which mr. rutherford lay undowne as the cause of appealing from a particular congregation : and so ou● brethren by this meanes have spun a fine thred , drawing forth a conclusion which is every what as prejudiciall to their owne cause as to ours . if any aske why may not this consequence be owned ? why may wee not say , there must bee liberty of appeales from all synods and presbyteries , except onely the generall councill ? the answer is , th●t wee may not so say ; because then causes would be too long depending a●ore they could come to issue , yea perhaps would never come to issue as long as this world shall endure : for by this rule they may by appeales upon appeales be protracted untill they be brought to a generall councill to be determined there . now as there hath not beene any such councill for many ages by-past , so it is very uncertaine when there will be one assembled , whether ever or never whilst this world stands . but wee thinke christ jesus hath provided better for his church then so , and hath not appointed such a necessitie of appeales upon appeales , but that causes may bee determined afore any generall councill can be assembled . besides , if such assemblies might be frequently attained , yet it is not yet cleered , that when they are assembled they have any power of iurisdiction at all ; but onely a doctrinall power to cleare up the rule , the power of iurisdiction remaining in some other assembly . sure it is , mr. rutherford thus teacheth expresly , for his words are these ; verily i professe i cannot see what power of jurisdiction to censure scandals can be in a generall councill ; there may bee some meerly doctrinall power if such a councill could be had , and that is all . due right , &c. pag. 482. and in the end of the same page and beginning of the next , speaking of those words , math. 18. tell the church , hee saith thus ; because ordinary communion faileth when you goe higher then a nationall church , and christ's way supposeth an ordinary communion — ; therefore i deny that this remedy is needfull in any church above a nationall church . by which sayings it appeareth , that he counts christs remedy to censure scandals not needfull in a generall councill , yea and hee seriously professeth , that hee cannot see that such a councill if it could bee had , hath any power of iurisdiction at all to censure scandals . which being so , it must needs follow , that scandals must be censured , and causes ended somewhere else , afore they can come 〈◊〉 such end to a generall councill . and if this bee so , then how can that stand which here hee affirmeth , that the true cause of appealing to synods in this ; because they doe rariùs errare , more seldome erre , then the particuler congregation , and having many eyes doe more seldome miscarry in taking up the right object : for this cause is most properly appliable to the generall councill , unto whom notwithstanding hee denies any power of iurisdiction to censure scandals ; and if they h●ve no such power , there can bee no appeales to them for such purpose and end . and how these things can stand toget●er , that the true cause of appeales to such or such assemlies doth he in this , that they doe more seldome erre as having many eyes , and yet that to generall councils there should be no appeales at all , as having no power of iurisdiction , though of all others this cause be most properly ●ound in them , i for my part doe confesse i doe not understand . if any shall say , that as mr. ruthe●ford doth make that which i have mentioned the true cause of appeales , so hee doth also hold a power of iurisdiction even in generall councils ; and shall therefore doubt whether i doe truly report him 〈◊〉 touch the contrary , i would wish no more favour of such a one but to peruse the places which i have here above alledged , and then i hope hee will ●nd the words to bee no otherwise , but as i have set them downe . i know indeed there are some places in him which doe looke another way ; as that where hee saith , it is by accident and not through want of inuat● and intrinsecall power , that the court of a catholick councill can not in an ordinary and constant way exercise that power which now we are speaking of due right , page 308. and a little after hee saith , he seeth nothing to prove that a generall councill hath not power to excommunicate a nationall church . yea and further , that if there were a generall councill at this d●y , they might lawfully in a iuridicall way ( so are his words ) doe that to the faction of romish pretended catholicks ; which hee saith , is excommunication in the essence and substance of th● act. and in the page next ensuing he saith , this of our saviour , tell the church , is necessarily to be applyed to all churches and courts of christ , even to a catholick councill . these places i confesse doe seeme to me not very well to agree with the either afore alledged : for in the one he plainly affirmes , there is in generall councils power of iurisdiction to censure scanda●s , and in the other hee doth as plainly deny the same . but it is the former places and not these latter which i doe stand upon ; in which former as i conceive him to hold the truth , so for ought i see , that which hee saith in this place wee have in hand about the true cause of appealing from congregations to synods is much infirmed thereby . for how can that be taken to be the true cause of appeales , which is most properly found in such assemblies ( i me●ne in generall councils ) unto whom as having no power of iurisdiction , there must be no ap●eales at all ? to conclude this chapter : when wee doe enquire about power of appealing , and unto what courts appeales must be brought , our way is not to seeke for such ●ourts as cannot erre , for such wee shall never find ; nor for such as we thinke will more seldome erre , as mr. rutherford would have it ; for that rule is also subject to much uncertainty and exception , as hath beene already declared . but the best way is to enquire where the lord jesvs hath placed the power of the last and finall censuring and determining of causes , and when that is found therewith to rest contented . and as for synods and councils , it is neither their not erring , nor their seldome erring that can bee a suffi●ient argument to place the power of iurisdiction in them ; unlesse the lord iesus had so appointed and ordained , which yet doth not appeare . and so much for this first place , wherein our brother deales against the answer . chap. ii. of the power of synods to give advice and counsell , and whether from thence it doth follow , that they have no power to command . the next place wherein i find this learned author dealing with the answer , is in his page 381. where having in the close of a 4 . th objection in the prece●ent page brought in these words , viz. a synod in dogmaticall power ariseth no higher then this ( viz. a man , or a single congregation ) as that a divine institution doth fall upon it . amongst other things in his answer to the objection hee saith thus , viz. i would know if a synods dogmaticall power be above the power of single congregations ; i think saith he , it is not by our brethrens tenents ; for they say expressely that every particular church hath right , jus , to decide dogmaticall points : this right the church of antioch had ( act. 15 ) an● laboured to end that controversie within her selfe , which sheweth that they had right an● power : but they had not ability ; and therefore in that case they seeke for counsell , light , and advise from other churches — . and then amongst other places for proofe that this is our tenent , hee alledgeth in his margent my name and mr. tompson● in the answer to mr. herle , chap. 2. and after the words above rehearsed and some others to the like purpose , hee inferreth thus : hence saith hee , the power of synods is onely by way of counsell and advise . answ . to omit ( at least for this time ) the other places alledged in his margent , and not to examine how farre his answer reacheth to satisfie the objection , as himselfe hath propounded it ; i will onely consider of such things as doe directly concerne the answer , for that is the scope ●ayme at , and i endeavour to keepe close thereto . first therefore i have this to say , that for the dogmaticall power of synods above congregations , for the right and power of the church of antioch in particular , and for the power of synods to bee onely by way of counsell and advise , there is not in the chapter alledged so much as one word about any one of those 〈◊〉 either one way or another ; so that i cannot but marvell why this reverend brother should alledge that chapter for such a purpose . 2. although in another place of the answer , viz. page 4● . there be words to the like purpose with those which our author here sets downe concerning antioch , yet for the conclusion and consequence which hee would thence inferre , viz. that the power of synods is onely by way of counsell and advice , as there is nothing said ● the chapter by him alledged that lookes that way , so there is nothing in the page or chapter where a●tioch is spoken of , nor any where else in all th● booke 〈◊〉 as i doe remember , that can any way serve for the proving of such a conclusion and tenent to bee ours . the author alledgeth no place that hath such a conclusion in it , either in direct words or by just consequence : and i professe that for my part i doe not know of any such . 3. but this i doe know that the direct contrary to what here is expressed is plainly to be found in another place of the said answer , viz. pag. 7. where there are these words , viz. if a synod may b● called a church , and if power by disputation and disquisition to cleare up the rule , and then to command obedience thereto , may be called government , then they ( viz. the independants as they are called ) doe admit a synod to bee a governing church , for the power here m●ntioned they doe allow unto synods . now the power here mentioned being , as we see , not onely a power by disputation to cleare up the rule , but also a power to command obedience thereto , they allowing this power unto synods as they doe exprestly say that they doe ; i know not why our brother should say , that they allow unto synods onely a power of counsell and advice . for power to command obedience , and power onely by way of counsell and advice , i suppose are not the same ; and if they be not , i know not how this report in this particuler can bee made good . to me it seemes apparent and undenyable , that they who have power to command obedience , have more then only a power to counsell and advise ; and they who have onely this latter have no power of the ●orme● at all . even interiours , as naamans servants , 2 king. 5. have power to counsell and advise their master , and yet i hope they had no power to command their master to yeeld obedience . 4 suppose it bee true ( which i deny not ) that the answer in another place , ( ●hough not in the place by him alledged ) doth say , that a●tioch had right to have ended the matter amongst themselves , if ability had served thereto , and that by reason of distention and through want of light they were forced to send out to ●●rusalem for helpe , must it needs follow thereupon that his assembly at ierusalem had no more power but onely by way of counsell and advise ? ( which is the conclusion which hee endeavours to draw ●●om that which is said concerning antioch ) i ●●●ceive there is no necessity at all of such a consequence . for whence must the same 〈◊〉 i suppose from one of these two , either from this , that antioch is supposed and said to have had right within her selfe , or else from this that jerusalem gives counsell and advise . any other colour for concluding such a conseptionce as is in question , the answer affords none that i know of . 〈◊〉 for these two particulers here mentioned , they are both insufficient for such 〈◊〉 purpose . for what should hinder but there bee more power in the synod of ●erusalem towards them of antioch then only by way of counsell and advise , even power to command them to do what is their duty , though antioch have right to end the matter themselves , if ability serves thereto ? doth right in one person or assembly to end their ma●●ers if they be able , extempt them from being under the command of others ? hoshoulders have right to governe and order their families , if so be that they be able : doth it follow therefore that superiors in church or civill state have no power to command housholders to do their duty herein , but only to give counsell and advise ? or if housholdere have such right , doth it follow that therefore they are under no command , in church and common-wealth ? i suppose it will not follow at all . or shall we say , that classes and provinciall synods have no right to end their own matters within themselves , if a nationall synod have power to command them ? or if they have such right , shall we therefore say they are not under the command of the nationall synod , and that the nationall synod hath no power over them but only by way of counsell and advise ? wee suppose master rutherford will not say so : and yet he might as well say it , as say as hee he doth , that because antioch hath right to ●nd her own matter if they be able , therefore a synod hath no power but only by way of counsell and advise . and though the synod is to give counsell and advise ( which was the other ground whereon the conclusier afore mentioned seemes to be built ) yet neither will master rutherford his conclus●on , that the power of synods is only by way of counsell and advise , follow from thence at all . for who knoweth not that . counsell and advise may be administred and given by them , who have also power to command ? not every one indeed as may advise and counsell , may forth with command and enjoyne : neverthelesse , counsell and command are not so repugnant , but that they who may command , may also advise . paul had power to command and enjoyne phyl●mon to do what was convenient , and yet for loves sake would rather beseech him , philem. 8. 9. the lord iesus to doubt hath absolute authority to command , and yet we find him sometimes speaking to the sons of men by way of counsell or advise . revel . 3. ●8 . i counsell thee to buy of me gold , that thou mayest he rich , &c. shall we now inferre from hence , that the power of the lord iesus is only by way of counsell aud advise , and that his power cannot amount to the nature of a command ? i suppose we would be afraid and abhorre to deduce such a consequence . and therefore , though a synod may advise , yet their power to command ( which is more then meere counsell and aduise ) is not from thence concluded to be null . and so much for master rutherford his second place , wherein he deales against the answer . chap. iii. of the assembly , act. 15. whether they did exercise any power of iurisdiction against the obtruders of circumcision , and whether their rebuking of them do argue the affirmative . in his page 388. he laies downe this as a 2d. object . viz. that there is no censuring of persons for scandals , and that meeting , act , 15. because there is nothing there but a doctrinall declaration of the falshood of their opinion who taught the necessity of circumcision : and that all is done by way of doctrine and by power of the keyes of knowledge , not of iurisdiction , is cleere from the end of the meeting , which was verse 2 & 6. to consider of that question : consideration of questions being the end of the synod , is a thing belonging to doctrinall power meerely . and then he s●●joyneth my name , and in the margent alledgeth the answer , chap. 1. page 8. ans . whereto i first of all returne this answer . first , that the thing here in question being about the power of that meeting acts 15. there is nothing in the place alledged by master rutherford that can warrant him to frame such an objection under master tompsons name and mine , as proceeding from us : and the reason is , because that meeting acts 15 , is not mentioned at all in the place by him alledged , neither for that purpose which he sets down , nor for any other ; much losse is the objection ours in terminis . now to frame an objection , and to alledge chapter and page for proofe that the objection is ours , when as neither page nor chapter aleadged do speake any thing at all of that matter , what reason can be given for this i know not . neverthelesse , because the matter contayned in the objection doth not much differ from my apprehension and judgement , and something in the answer elsewhere may possibly intimate such a thing , though but briefly touched , i will therefore consider of what he saith for removing the objection as himselfe hath propounded the same . it is false , saith he , that there is no censuring of persons here , for — it is more then evident that the publike synodicall censure of rebuke is put upon those who held and urged the necessity of circumcision , and why not excommunication also in case of obstinacy ? for the synodicall censure of a publike synodicall rebuke is only gradually different , not specifically from excommunication , & both must proceed from ou● & the same power . so then the summe is , the synod had power of rebuking , and therefore of excommunication also . answ . the consequence is not cleere , for who knoweth not that there may be power to rebuke , where there is no power of excommunication ? is it not the expresse law of god , that every man shall plainly rebuke his neighbour and not suffer sin upon him , levit. 19. 17 ? and are not our 〈◊〉 words as plaine , if thy brother trespasle against thee rebuke him , and if he repent forgive him , luke 17. 3 ? whereby it is evident that one particular person hath power by the law of god and christ to put a rebuke upon another , if there be occasion for it . but will it follow hereupon that one particular christian hath power to excommunicate another in case of obstinacy ? i suppose master rutherford will not say so ; and yet unlesse this be said , i know not how his consequence can be made good , that if a synod may rebuke , they may excommunicate also . i know indeed he saith , the synodicall rebuke is only gradually different from excommunication , and not specifically , and that both must proceed from one and the same power . but this would require some proofe , and should not nakedly be affirmed without any proofe at all . for of it selfe it is not evident , that where ●ver there is power to rebuke , there is power of excommunication also . the contrary i suppose is evident from that which hath already been said from levit. 19. 17. and luke 17. 3. and from many other scriptures , and reasons , which shew that one man alone hath power to rebuke , who cannot for that be concluded to have any power of excommunication . i know the learned m●n is copious in proving from the words of verse 24. certaine men went from us , and have troubled you with words , subverting your soules , &c. that this assembly doth not only in a doctrinall way confute the false opinion and doctrine of these teachers of circumcision , but doth also rebuke them for another fault , to wit ; their obtruding their false way upon the soules and consciences of others , and for their wilfull and obstinate upholding that opinion and raysing a schisme in the church . but if all this were granted his purpose were not gained thereby , unlesse he would prove that which he doth but only affirme , to wit , that a synodicall rebuke is not specifically different but only gradually from excommunication , and that both must proceed from the same power , which ye● he hath not proved at all . but saith he , i argue thus : if the apostles do not only in a doctrinall way refute a false doctrine in this synod , but also in church way and by a juridicall power do rebuke and synodically charge the authors as subverters of soules , and lyers , then they doe not onely use a meere doctrinall power in this synod , but also a juridicall power : but the former is true : ergo , so is the latter . answ . with favour of so learned a man , i thinke this kind of argu●ng is but a begging of the thing in question , and a proving of idem per idem . for if the synod did not only in a doctrinall way refute a false doctrine , but also by a iuridicall power rebuke the authors of it , then it must needs be true indeed that they did not only use a doctrinall power , but also a iuridicall power ; that is , if they did so , they did so : if they did use such power , they did use it . but there still lyes the question , whether they did so or no : and whether they did use such power or not , and this kind of arguing doth not cleere it all . if we on the contrary should argue thus , if this assembly did not put forth any power of iurisdiction or discipline , but only in a doctrinall way con●ute a false doctrine and rebuke the authors of it , then they did onely put forth a doctrinall power , and not any power of iurisdiction , one of farre lesse abilities then our learned author , would soone espy the loosenesse of such reasoning : at least himselfe , we doubt not , would soone espy it , for sometimes we heare him say , friend your logick is naught , page 177. and yet ( be it spoke without offence ) the logick which himselfe doth here use is not so good , as to be altogether without fault , no not for the forme of it ; and therefore , we do not see how any thing can be concluded th●reby . but to leave this mistake , and to consider of the matter it selfe . if it were granted that this assembly doth not only in a doctrinall way consute a false doctrine , but also rebuke the authors thereof , must it needs follow that this rebuking was done in a iu●idicall way ? is there no rebuking of offenders for their faults , but only in a way of ●●●●ction and discipline ? i suppose much needs not to be said for the cleering the truth to be otherwise . for master rutherford himselfe confesses page 394. that there is great odds to do one and the same action materially , and to do the same formally : and page 393. that one apostle might himselfe alone have rebuked these obtruders of circumcision . which being so , it followeth thereupon that though this synod ( to call it so ) act. 15. had a doctrinall power , yea and a power of rebuking these false teachers ; yet the thing that he from thence would inferre , viz. their power of rebuking in a iuridicall way , and their power of excommunication , these are neither of them proved thereby . for if it should be said , that though rebuking do not alwayes imply iuridicall power , yet if it be a synod that doth rebuke , then the power here spoken of may be concluded thence to be in a synod . the answer is , that this will not helpe at all , because this is nothing but the bringing in of another efficient , viz. the synod , for effecting or acting the same effect . now master rutherford confesseth pag. 393. that he doth not fetch the specification of this rebuke and of those decrees from the efficient causes ; and gives that for his reason , which to me is unanswerable , to wit , because one apostle might himselfe alone have rebuked these obtruders of circumcision : and in the page next ensuing he confesseth also , that actions have not by good logick their totall specification from the efficient cause . which being so , then though it were granted that any synod may , and that this synod did performe this action of rebuking , yet the thing in question , to wit , that the power of a synod is a power of iurisdiction and of excommunication is not at all gained thereby . at the least wise ( to end this passage ) this i may say , that if this reverend brother will be true to his own principles , and not gainsay what himselfe hath already written , he for his part cannot conclude the synods power to excommunicate from this argument of their power to rebuke , nor yet from any other argument whatsoever : and the reason is , because he doth elsewhere confesse that synods are not to excommunicate any , and not this synod in particular to excommunicate these false teachers , but to remit the censuring of them to other churches , commanding them to doe it . his words as they are to be seene in his page 413. are these , viz. i could easily yeeld that there is no necessity of the elicit acts of many parts of government , such as excommunication , ordination , admitting of heathens , professing the faith to church-membership , in synods provincicall , nationall or oecumenicall ; but that synods in the ease of neglect of presbyterycall churches , command these particular churches whom it concerneth to doe their duty : and in this sence act. 15. is to remit the censure of excommunication to the presbytery of antioch and ierusalem , in case of the obstinacy of these obtruders of circumcision . in which words we have two things concerning excommunication ( to omit other particulars ) first , that there is no necessity that synods should excommunicate any , but only command the churches to do their duty therein . secondly , in particular concerning that synod acts 15. that they were to remit the censure of excommunication to the presbyteries of antioch and jerusalem , in case of the obstinacy of these obtruders or circumcision . which particulars being most true ( as i for my part so esteeme of them ) it followes thereupon , that what master rutherford saith in this place we have now in hand , is greatly weakned thereby . for how both these can stand together , that this synod should have power not only to rebuke , but to excommunicate these false teachers , and yet neither provinciall , nationall , nor oecumenicall synods to excommunicate any , nor this synod in particular to excommunicate these false teachers , but to remit the censure to other churches to whom it concerned , commanding them to do it , how these things i say can stand together , i for my part am not able to understand . chap. iiii. of the dogmaticall power of synods , and of the power of congregations to determine matters amongst themselves if ability serve thereto . in his page 396. alledging mr. tompsons name and mine , and chap. 1. page 9. of the answer . he saith we there teach that there is a power of cleering truth dogmatically , & that ultimately where the controversy is ended : but he saith , we will have this vltimate power not in a synod only , but also in a congregation ; and then no answereth three things which there ensue . answ . our words are these , by power of decrees we understand power to cleere up the truth dogmatically ; for the word translated decrees is dogmata in the originall , act. 16. 4. and this power we confesse is in a synod , though not all in a synod alone , but also in the presbyterie of a single congregation . now these bring our words , if therefore this reverend brother would overthrow our tenent in this particular , he should have proved that there is not any power as all in the presbytery of a single congregation to cleere up the truth dogmatically : this indeed had been directly contrary to what we teach : but this be neither proveth , nor once attempteth to prove ; and therefore our tenent herein doth yet stand good , for any thing he hath said to the contrary . and no marvell , si●h the expresse words of the text do witnesse that every bishop hath power and is boand by his office and duty , by sound doctrin● both to exhort and convince gainsayets , tit. 1. 9. and accordingly the presbitery of antioch did labour to cleere up the truth in that controversy about circumcision ; and had much disputation about it amongst themselves , afore there was any speech of sending to jerusalem for help , act. 15. 2. which sheweth that they had power or right to have cleered the matter amongst themselves , if ability had served , or else this indeavour had been sinful as being an attempting to do that whereto they had no right . so that for ought we yet soe , the power that we speake of , and which wee hold to bee in the presbytery of a congregation is there indeed by the appointment of the lord. but let us heare master rutherfords answer . first , saith he , they seeme to make this dogmaticall power a church power , and the exercise thereof formally an act of church government ; and so it must be church power and church government in the synod , as well as in the congregation . answ . whence doth it seeme that we do so make it ? are there any such words as here he sets down ? or any words equivalent thereto ? or doth the place make any mention of church-power , and church government at all ? or is there so much as one word that looketh that way ? if there be , let our brother say that we seeme to ●each as he doth report ; but if there be not , we are sorry he should report us to teach o● seeme to teach , that which to our remembrance we never said nor thought . and sure it is , we have expresly said the direct contrary in page 7 , the page next save one afore this which heere he is dealing against , where wee have these words , it seemeth to us ( say we ) that this power , viz. by disquisition and disputation to cleere up the rule ( and then to command obedience thereto ) is not properly a power and exercise of government and jurisdiction , but a power of doctrine , and so a synod is rather a teaching then a governing church . these are our words in the page afore alledged ; wherein we plainly expresse what the power of synods seemeth unto us to be , even the direct contrary to that which he saith we seeme to make it ; wee on the one side affirming and expressing , that it seemes to us , the power of a synod is no power of government and iurisdiction , but a power of doctrine : and he on the other side reporting that we seeme to make the exercise of dogmaticall power to be formally an act of church-government , and so to place church-government in the synod . in which report we must needs say , wee are plainly mis-reported . his second answer is this . the last period and conclusion of the controversie cannot be both in the congregation by right only , and in the synod by right only : for two last powers cannot be properly in two subordinate iudicatures . answ . this is very true , but it toucheth not us at all . for we never said the last period of the controversie is both in the congregation only , and in the synod onely . if we have so said , let the place be produced where we have said it ; for the place by him alledged doth afford us no such thing , nor any place else that we know of . all that the place affords concerning this point is only this , that there is a power of cleering the truth dogmatically in a synod , though not in a synod only , but also in the presbytery of a single congregation . and this doctrine i hope our brother will not deny . but whether this power be last in the synod , or in the congregationall presbytery , of this we do not speaks at all ; much lesse do we say as he doth apprehend and report , that this power is both last in the synod and last in the congregation too . wherefore our defence in this particular must needs be this ; that what here he confuteth to be outs , is such a thing as never fell from our mouths or pens , nor for ought we know did never enter into our thoughts . thirdly , he saith . if a controversie concerne many congregations as this doth act. 15. i see not how a congregation except they transgresse their line , can finally determine it . answ . neither doth this touch us , except we had said that a congregation may finally determine controversies which concerne many churches , which yet we have not said . as for that controversie act. 15. it is plaine from verse 2 , that antioch did endeavour to have ended it amongst themselves , so far as they were troubled therewith . for some teaching that corrupt doctrine amongst them , they had much disputation about the point afore they determined to send out for helpe elsewhere . now to what end was thus much disputation , if they had no right to determine the matter ? might they not better have spared their paines ? or did they not transgresse their line in attempting what they did attempt ? sure it seemes they did , if they had not right to determine the matter . but for our part , sith we do not find them in the least reproved by the holy ghost for this attempt , therfore we cannot but think they did well therein . and thereupon it followeth , that if antioch was a congregationall church ( as it seemes to us it was , from act. 14. 27. ) either this controversie did trouble no church but antioch only , or else when a controversie or corrupt opinion doth trouble many churches , one of them may lawfully determine and end it , so farre at it concernes themselves . chap. v. againe of that assembly , act. 15. whether their rebuking the false teachers do prove a power of iurisdiction and excommunication in synods : and whether preaching doe prove the assembly where it is , to be a church . the new place where i find him excepting against the answer , it in his pag. 410. where he proposeth an object . to this effect , to wit. paul exercised the keyes of knowledge upon barbarians , and might have preached to indians , and did to scoffing athenians — yea paul by this power dogmaticall rebuked the athenians , act. 17. 22. yet paul had no power to excommunicate the athenians . and then he subjoyneth my name , and cites in the margent the 43 , and 44 pages of the answer . answ . this objection being taken from pauls rebuking the athenians , our brother had no reason to propose it under mr. tompsons 〈◊〉 and mine , for as much as in all that discourse of ours , the athenians to my rememb●ance are not so much as once mentioned : sure in the pages by him alledged there is no mention of the athenians at all . and therefore why this objection should bee proposed and reported by him as ours , wee doe not know . which i doe not say , 〈◊〉 though i thought the objection so weake , as though the authors of it may not well owne it . for from whosoever the objection came , for ought that i yet perceive there is good weight therein . for which cause , and because in one of those pages wee have delivered something concerning a ministers power to preach to pagans in generall , ( though nothing concerning the atheni●ns in particular , as hee reporteth ) therefore i am willing to consider what mr. rutherfor● saith , for the satisfying of the objection proposed , as not willing to passe by any thing without consideration , wherein our selves may seeme to be concerned or aymed at i deny not saith he , but there is a great oddes betwixt a concionall rebuking by way of preaching , which may be and is alwayes performed by one , and a juridicall rebuking by a power jurididicall of the keyes , which is performed only by a church society . answ . if all this were granted , you the objection is not satisfied , nor his purpose gained thereby . for the cleering whereof it is good to consider the thing in question , and how this objection comes in , and whereto it tends , and then we may better descerne how the objection is removed by mr. rutherfords answer : the thing in question is , whether a synod have power of iurisidiction and excommunication . mr. rutherford his scope in that place is to prove the affirmative ; and therefore for a dozen or 14 pages together , hee hath these words in the top of every lease , the power of a synod a power of jurisdiction : and his medium to prove this tenent is this ; because a synod hath power to rebuke . whereupon ensueth the objection , that paul might rebuke the athenians and yet might not excommunicate them ; and therefore enough a synod may rebuke , it followes not that they may excommunicate . this is the order of the dispute , as is plainly to bee seeme by p●●●sing the place . and now comes in the answer which mr. rutherford gives to the objection ; to wit , that there is a great odds betwixt a concionall rebuking and a juridicall , the one being performed by one , and the other by many ; which answer i conceive is not sufficient , because this difference may hee granted and many more may be added if hee please , and yet the thing in question not gained , nor the objection removed at all . for what though a concionall rebuking be performed by one , and a iuridicall by many ? yet still it remaineth cleare , that there may bee rebuking where there is no iurisdiction ; and therefore , though a synod may rebuke , it followes not that they may excommunicate , nor have power of iurisdiction . if our brother would have satisfied the objection , he should not have satisfyed himselfe with alledging the difference mentioned betweene a concionall rebuking , and a iuridicall or synodicall ; but should have proved that there cannot be any concionall rebuking at all , at least wise not any rebuking of athenians who are not subject to excommunication , and if this had been proved , the objection had been fully removed . but this he hath not proved at all , nor once attempted to prove it , but plainly yeelds the contrary ; and therefore for ought i see the objection remayneth in its strength , and so the strength of his argument removed thereby , who would prove the synod , power of iurisdiction from their power of rebuking . but let as heare what he answereth in the words ensuing . it cannot be denyed saith he , but the rebuking of men because they subverted soules , verse 24. is not a meere concionall rebuking which may be performed by one . first , it is a rebuking verse 24. second , it is a rebuking performed by many , by a whole synod , 6. 22. third , it is performed by a politicall society . answ , and what of all this ? may it not neverthelesse be denyed that this rebuking was any other then in a doctrinall way ? be it granted , that it was a rebuking , and a rebuking performed by many ; and if were granted by a politicall society too ; must it needs follow that therefore it was iuridicall , or in way of iurisdiction ? i see no necessity of such consequence . nay , master rutherford himselfe doth confesse ( as we heard afore ) in his page 393. that the specification of this rebuke must not be fetched from the efficient causes , because one apostle might himselfe alone have rebuked these obtruders of circumcision . if therefore it were granted that many persons , a whole synod , a politicall society , or what ever else he will call them , were the efficient causes of this rebuke , yet all this is too little to prove that the rebuke was iuridicall , unlesse the specification of it must be fetched from the efficient causes , which master rutherford himselfe disclaymes . moreover , i would put this case : suppose a pagan or a christian of another nation and kingdome , shall come into a church assembly , whether the assembly be a congregationall church , or a synod ; and in the assembly shall openly and scandalously misbehave himselfe in one kind or other , to the dishonour of god , and grieving of the godly , and the danger of corrupting others that shall behold such bad example . i would gladly know whether this assembly be it synod or other , may not lawfully rebuke this scandalous practice and behaviour , and if they may , whether it would follow therupon that they may also lawfully excommunicate the man , if his sin and impenitency shall deserve the same . if it be said they may , i would know : quo jure ? and who gave them such authority to excommunicate pagans , or men of another nation , being only there present at that time occasionally ? and if they may not so proceed against such a person , then the answer to master rutherfords alledgements in the case we have in hand , is ready and plaine : for as he alledgeth , first , here is a rebuking . second , a rebuking of many , even a whole synod . third , of a politicall society and body ; even so the same may be said in this case in all the particulars ; for first , here is a rebuking . second , rebuking of many . third , by a politicall society and body : and yet all this is too little to prove a power of iurisdiction and excommunication in the case proposed ; and therefore i see not how it can be sufficient to prove such a power in a synod , for which purpose master rutherford brings it . of necessity for ought that i see , one of these must be said , either that this assembly have no power to rebuke the man , but must suffer his sin to be upon him , though god be dishonoured , and others endangered thereby ; or else it must be said they have power to excommunicate him as well as to rebuke him ; ( neither of which i conceive can safely be said ) or if neither of these can be said , it must then follow that their may be power to rebuke , even in an assembly of many persons , a politicall society ; and yet the same assembly have no power at all to excommunicate the persons so rebuked , and so this learned brothers arguing is answered . likewise , i suppose it will not be denyed , but one congregation if need so require , may rebuke and reprove another congregation , though neither of them be superiour to other , but both of them equall and independant of each other in regard of subjection , mr. rutherf . confesseth , p. 294. that congregations and churches may admonish and rebuke each other , and sure it is , that scripture , cant. 8. 8. we have a little sister , what shall we do for her ? doth shew that churches ought to take care one for the good of another . and if they must take care and consult for one another , there is the like reason that they should reprove and admonish one another , as need shall require . now when one church doth so practise towards another , it cannot be denyed , but here are the same things which mr. rutherford speakes of , first , a rebuking second , a rebuking performed by many . third , a rebuking performed by a politicall society and body . but can any man inferre from hence , that the church thus rebuking another church hath power to excommunicate that other church ? i suppose none will affirme it . and if this may not be affirmed , i do not see how rebuking performed by many even by a whole synod , can be any sufficient ground to prove that the synod hath power to excommunicate . the apostles and elders ( saith our author ) are not considered here as meerely preachers and teachers in the act of teaching ; for why then should they not be formally a church assembly , if they be an assembly meeting for preaching the word ? pag. 411. 412. answ . when the text acts 15 , doth mention sometimes the multitude , verse 12. sometimes the brethren , verse 23. sometimes the whole church , verse 22. besides the apostles and elders , we know no absurdity in it , if one should say , here was formally a church and a church assembly ; in which church-assembly the apostles and elders were teachers and preachers , though they alone were not the church . yet though wee thinke heere was a church , and a church-assembly ; wee do not thinke mr. rutherford reason doth prove them so to be . for paul and s●las were preachers of the word in the prison at philippi , act 16. and at mar●hill , and the market-place at athens , act. 17. and yet we thinke it hard to inferre thence , that these assemblies were formally churches . yea but saith our author , the exercise of the keyes of knowledge in the hearing of a multitude , is essentially an act of preaching of the word , page 412. answ this is very true indeed , an act of preaching the word it must needs bee , the word preaching being taken in its utmost latitude . but is not unavoidably and alwayes a church-act , or an act that infallibly proves the assembly , where such an act is performed , to be formally a church ? this is the thing that should have been cleered , or else the thing is not cleered ; but this our reverend author doth not cleere at all ; and the contrary is very plaine from sundry instances in the acts , where the apostles did exercise the key of knowledge in the hearing of multitudes in sundry places , where yet for all this there was not forthwith any church ; and therfore , whereas he saith , the apostles and elders are not considered in this assembly as preachers and teachers in the act of teaching , because then the assembly should have been formally a church , we rather thinke they that shall consider it will find that the apostles did , and other elders in these dayes may put forth the act of teaching and preaching in some assemblies ( suppose assemblies of turkes and indians ) and yet the assemblies not thereby proved to be churches . chap. vi. whether the power of synods be a power of iurisdiction ; and of the dependance of the synagogues upon the synedrion at jerusalem . next of all , in his page 414 in a 16 . th objection in this and the former page he saith thus , therefore was the synagogue of the jewes no compleat church , because all the ordinances of god cannot be performed in the synagogue : and therefore , were the jewes commanded only at ierusalem , and in no other place to keepe the passeover and to offer offerings and sacrifices which were ordinary worship : but there is not any worshiper sacred ordinance ( saith that worthy divine dr. ames ) of preaching , praying , sacraments , &c. prescribed , which is not to be observed in every congregation of the new testament , — and then he subjoyneth mr. tompsons name and mine ; and in his margent cites the answer , page 12 , 13. and further saith in the objection , that others say because there was a representative worship of sacrificing of all the twelve tribes at ierusalem , therefore all the synagogues were dependant churches , and ierusalem the supreame and highest church . answ . to leave what is alledged a● objected by others , and to consider only of that which concernes our selves . because the synagogues in israel were dependant on the great synedrion at ierusalem , therefore some would inferre that congregations in these dayes must be dependant on the iurisdiction of synods . to this argument we are endeavouring to give answer in the place alledged by mr. rutherford , where we shew that the synagogues might be dependant and not compleat churches , because the sacred ordinances of god which were of ordinary use , could not be performed in them ; but congregations in these dayes compleat and intire as having liberty to enjoy the use of all the ordinances within themselves : for both which particulars we alledge the testimony and words of dr. ames . the summe is thus much : if the synagogues could not enjoy all the ordinances within themselves , and our congregations may , then though the synogogues were dependant on the synedrion at jerusalem , it will not follow that congregations in these dayes must be dependant on synods . this is the 〈◊〉 of that which is said in the answer : in the place which mr. rutherford alledges . now what answer doth he returne to this passage ? truly none at all that i can find . none will you say ? how can that be ? doth he not propound it in his 16 . th objection , as that which he undertakes to answer ? i confesse he doth so , but neverthelesse all that he hath set down for answer is wholly taken up and spent in two other things , the objection which he proposeth as ours , being wholly left untouched . those two things are these ; the one an answer to another passage of ours in another place of the answer , the other an answer to the last part of his objection , which himselfe doth acknowledge to bee the saying of others , and not ours ; and therefore hee brings it in thus viz. others say , because there was a representative worship , &c. by those words , others say , plainly declaring that what he thus expresseth , proceedeth not from us , but from others . and so though he returne answer to this saying of others , and to another saying of ours which we have written elsewhore , yet for this of ours which he proposeth in this h●s objection , i find no answer thereto at all . and therefore i thinke the thing remaines as it was , unlesse wee shall take his meere proposing of it for a satisfying answer , which we see no reason to do . neverthelesse , though he turnes away from this passage of ours without returning any answer thereto , yet there is another which he applies himselfe more directly against , and therefore to this sixteenth objection hee begging his answer thus , surely the aforesaid reverend brethren of new-england have these words , but it seemeth to us the power ( of a synod ) is not properly a power and exercise of government and iurisdiction , but a power of doctrine , and so a synod is rather a teaching then a governing church : from whence ( saith he ) i inferre , that our brethren cannot deny a power of governing to a synod , but it is not so proper governing as excommunication and ordination performed in their congregations ; but say i , it is more properly governing as to make lawes and rules of governing is a more noble , emin●nt and higher act of governing ( as is evident in the king and his parliament ) then the execution of ●hese lawes and rules . answ . so then , th●se former words of ours proposed in the objection , are wholly forsaken and left , and instead of answering them , he fals as we set upon other words which we have written elsewhere , and applies himselfe to deale against those other . by which dealing the considerate reader may judge whether the former words being thus handsomly forsaken and left , do not still remaine in their strength : and whether it had not been as good never to have proposed them at all in his objection , as having proposed them to turne away directly and immediately from them unto other matters , without returning one word of answer to the former . the wise in heart may consider what this doth import . but sich he is pleased to acquit the former and to apply himselfe to the other , let us therefore leave the former in its strength and unshaken , and consider of what he saith in this other . wherein when he speakes of making lawes and rules of governing , either he me●nes this making lawes and rules properly so called , or else he meanes it onely of a ministeriall power to cleere up the lawes and rules of christ , and in his name to com●and obedience thereto . and it seemes by the instance which he gives of the king and his parliament , that he intends the former sence . and if so , then the answer is that this noble , eminent , and high act of governing as he cals it , doth not belong to any synods upon earth , but only to the lord iesus christ in heaven , the script●res abundantly witnessing , that he only is the lord and law giver to his church , l●● . 4. 12. isa . 33. 22. for the cleering of which point , much needs not to be said , considering that this learned brother himselfe doth elsewhere directly and in expresse termes co●fesse as much as we desire in this matter . for in one place speaking in one place of a power to prescribe rules and lawes , he doth not only distinguish them from lawes p●operly so called by the word directive , calling them directive lawes , but also for further explaining his mind , annexeth these words . they are not properly lawes which the church prescribeth : christ is the only law-giver : due right , page 395. and in the page following speaking of a societies or a synods power of making lawes , he addeth for explanation thus , i take not here lawes for lawes properly so called , but for ministeriall directories , having ecclesiasticall authority . so then the church or the synod hath no power at all to make lawes properly so called , for christ ●s the onely law giver : and if so , then the governing power of sy●ods which our brother would prove by this noble and eminent and high power of making lawes is not proved thereby at all , in as much as this noble and eminent power of making lawes doth not belong to any synods upon earth , but to christ only . and this may be an answer to what he saith or a synods power to make lawes , it lawes be taken in their proper sense . but if he intend not this sense and meaning in the place we are speaking of , but only the latter , viz that synods have power to cleere up the lawes and rules of christ , and to command obedience thereto , then i confesse the answer in the 7 . th page thereof doth acknowledge such power to belong unto synods , but how this can prove their power of iurisdiction and government properly so called , which mr. rutherford would thence inferre , we for our parts do not yet perceive . for the power here described is but a meere doctrinall power , and we have given sundry instances in the answer , pag. 43. 44. to shew that there may be a power by way of doctrine to cleere up the rules and lawes of christ , and to command obedience thereto , where yet there is no power by way of iurisdiction and discipline to punish the breach of those rules ; which instance , this reverend brother doth not satisfie at all . and therefore though synods have power to cleere up the rules and lawes of christ , and to command obedience thereto ( which power we deny them not ) yet that which he from thence would inferre , that they have also a power of government and iurisdiction , doth not follow from thence at all , unlesse we shall say , that doctrine and discipline , doctrine and iurisdiction or government are the same . briefly thus : a power of mak●ng lawes properly so called is a noble and eminent kind of government , but this power doth not belong unto synods , but to christ . a power of cleering up christs lawes , and commanding in his name obedience thereunto doth belong unto synods , but this is no power of iurisdiction and government , but a ministeriall power of doctrine , and so still our tenent doth stand , that a synod if it may be called a church , is rather a teaching then a governing church . secondly , saith our author , our brethren incline to make a synod a teaching church . answ . we never yet absolutely yeelded that a synod might be called a church , 〈◊〉 on the contrary , wee have said , that unlesse it could be proved that in scripture the name of a church is given to a synod , we are not to be blamed though we give not a synod that name . answ . pag. 1. the most that we have yeelded in this point is this , that for the name we will not contend , and that if a synod may be called a church , then sith they have power by disputation to cleere up the rule , they are rather a teaching then a governing church . answer pag. 1. & 7. this is all we have said , and we desire our words may not be stretched beyond our intent and scope therein . but let us heare what our brother would hence inferre . i inferre , saith he , that synodicall teaching by giving out decrees , tying many churches , as our brethren of new-england and the forenamed authors teach , is an ordinance of christ , that can be performed in no single congregation on earth , for a doctrinall cannon of one congregation can lay any ecclesiasticall tye upon many churches , ergo by this reason our congregations shall be dependant as were the jewish synagogues . answ . when he saith the brethren of new-england and the authors of the answer do teach a synodicall teaching by giving out decrees tying many churches , and aledgeth for proofe in his margent , answ . 7. to 32. q. 9. 14. page 43 , 44. and answer to mr. herle , chap. 4. pag. 40. 41 with favour of so learned a man , wee must returne this answer , that neither of the palces alledged will make good his purpose , in as much as neither of them doth make any mention at all of the thing which he reports them to teach , viz. such synodicall teaching as gives out decrees tying many churches . let the places be viewed and the thing will be found as i say . and therefore how they can be said to teach that which they neither teach nor mention , doth surmount my ability to conceive . if the reader would know what it is that is taught in the places , it is no more but this , that in some cases it is requisite that churches should seeke for light and counsell and advice from other churches , as antioch , did send unto ierusalem in a question which they wanted ability to determine amongst themselves , and that there ought to be synods , and that we thinke that meeting act 15. might be such an one . the first of these is taught in the form●● of the places , and the other in the other . but for giving out synodicall decrees tying many churches , this same be it within the power of synods or otherwise , is 〈◊〉 taught at all in either of the places , except wee shall say ( which we thinke were unreasonable ) that there can be no synods , nor consulting of other churches for light and counsell and advice , but there must be in those other churches so consulted withall , a power to give out binding decrees , yea decrees that shall bind or tye many churches . we thinke this latter doth no wayes necessarily follow upon the former ; and therefore though the places alledged do speake to the former , yet the latter which this author reports them to teach , they do not teach at all . secondly , i answer further , that if such a doctrine were indeed taught in the places by him alledged or any other , yet the inference which he would thence bring in , that then our congregations shall be dependant as were the iewish synagogues , th●s same doth not follow at all : and the reason is , because the synagogues were dependant on the supreame synedrion not only for light and counsell , no nor only for doctrinall cannons or decrees , but also for iurisdiction and discipline , that synodrion being their supreame court , to whose sentence they were all bound under paine of death to submit , as is cleere , deut. 17. 11 , 12. and therefore if it were granted ( which yet we do not see proved ) that synods may give out decrees and doctrinall cannons , that shall tye many churches , it doth not follow that our congregations shall therefore be dependant as were the iewish synagogues , except it were also proved that they must depend upon synods in point of iurisdiction and discipline , as well as in point of doctrine , yea and so depend as that the sentence of those synods must be obeyed under paine of death . sure the synagogues and every member of them were in this sort dependant upon the supreame synedrion : but we hope 〈◊〉 reverend brother will not say that congregations must in this sort be dependant upon synods . at the least wise this we hope he will not deny , that every member of a church is bound to depend upon the pastor of that church in point of doctrine ; and yet it will not follow that he must depend upon one pastor alone in point of iurisdiction and d●scipline . and the reason is , because doctrine may be dispenced by one pastor alone , but discipline must be dispenced by a church , which one pastor alone cannot be . and therefore if congregations were to be dependant upon synods in point of doctrine , it would not follow that they must bee dependant in point of iurisdiction and discipline . thirdly , saith he , it is a begging of the question to make ierusalem the supreame church and the synagogues dependant churches ; because it it was lawfull only at ierusalem to sacrafice ; for i hold that ierusalem was a dependant church no lesse then the smallest synagogues in all their trybes . and so he proceedeth largely , to shew that sacrificing at ierusalem did not make ierusalem supreame . answ . it this were even so as is pleaded , yet that which we have said of the compleatnesse of the synagogues and of their dependancie is not at all removed thereby : and the reason is , because we do not make the synagogues dependant nor ierusalem supreame , meerely upon this ground , because ierusalem alone was the place of sacrificing , but this is the ground upon which chiefly we go , that at ierusalem was the synedrion upon whom all israell must depend for judgement , and from whose sentence there was no appeale , which ground wee still thinke doth prove both the incomplearnesse of the synagogues , and the supremacie of the synedrion , and the contrary to this must be cleered if our tenent in this matter be removed . true it is , we thinke it some argument of the synagogues incompleatnesse and imperfection that they were not permitted to enjoy all the ordinances which were of ordinary use : but the supremacie of ierusalem we do not place in this only , that there was the place for sacrifice but in this withall that the supreame iudicatory was there , upon which all israell must depend , and from the which there must be no appeale . and yet this supremacie we do not place in ierusalem considered a part from the synedrion , but in the synedrion it selfe . and therefore , whereas he saith , pag. 415. that we might as well conclude that all the cities and incorporations of england are dependant upon london , inasmuch as the parliament useth there to sit , i conceive the comparison doth not sute , because as we do not place the supremacie in london or in westminster , considered apart from the parliament , but in the parliament which useth there to sit , so we place not the supremacie amongst the iewes in ierusalem considered apart from the synedrion , but in the synedrion it selfe , which was there seated . but because our reverend brother in the latter end of this 16 . th objection bringeth in this particular of ierusalems supremacie by reason of the sacrifices , with others say , therefore i conceive he intends not us therein , but some body else , and therefore i will proceed to the next wherein our selves are concerned . chap. vii . whether the lawfulnesse or necessity of appeales doe prove a superiority of iurisdiction in synods over congregations , and of sundry sayings of our author which seeme to interfere . in his page 422. he propounds a 19 . th objection to this effect , if the government of consociated churches be warranted by the light of nature , then this light of nature being common to us in civill as in ecclesiasticall causes , it will follow that every city governed with rulers within it selfe ▪ must be subordinate to a classe of many cities , and that classe to a nationall meeting of all the cities : and the nationall government to be a catholike or oecumenicke civill court — . and because by the same light of nature there must bee some finall and supreame iudgement of controversies , least appeales should be spun out in infinitum , it must be proved that this supremacie lyeth not in a congregation . and in the margent he citeth mr. tompson and my selfe in page 16 and page 10 , of the answer , as authors of this last bassis in the o●ectjection . answ . it is true that in one of those pages alledged we speake to the like purpose as here is reported . for we there suppose it to be cleere by the light of nature , that there must be some finall and supreame judgement of causes , and that unlesse it be determined where that supremacie doth lye , ( which we account the very thing in question ) we say the usefulnesse and necessity of appeales may be granted , and yet we shall be still at uncertainty about the thing in question , and as much to seeke as before , because that there ought to be appeales til you come to the highest is one thing , and that a synod and not a congregation is the highest is another . to this purpose we have written in one of those pages , the summe whereof is this much ; that though the usefulnesse of appeales till you come to the highest be granted , yet the supremacie of synods over congregations in matter of iudicature is not concluded thereby . now what doth our reverend brother returne in his answer ? doth he prove the contrary to what is here affirmed by us ? doth he cleere it sufficiently , that if it bee once granted that there must be appeales till you come to the highest , then the supremacie of synods over congregations must inevitably follow ? i conceive the necessity of this consequence had need to be cleered , if that which we have said be sufficiently answered . but doth our brother cleere this ? or doth he so much as once attempt the cleering thereof ? surely to speake freely what i find , i find nothing that looketh that way , and therfore cannot but wonder why our opinion should be alledged in this objection , and so his reader be led into expectation of some sufficient answer thereto , and then the answer which he returnes to be taken up in other matters , our opinion proposed in the objection , being wholly in his answer left untouched . if that saying of ours be not sound , why doth he not returne some answer ? if it be sound and good , why doth he make an objection of it , and so breed an apprehension in weake readers of its unsoundnesse , and put them in hope of a confutation , when no such thing is performed ? i leave it to the wise in heart to consider what this doth argue . neverthelesse , let us consider of what he doth returne for answer , page 423. first he saith , appeales being warranted by the counsell which iethro gave to moses — cannot but be naturall ? answ . suppose this be so , what can there be concluded hence , that makes against us ? cannot appeales be naturall , but the supremacie of synods over congregations must needs follow ? if there must be an highest , must it needs be yeelded that the synod and not the congregation is that highest ? i conceive this needs not to be yeelded at all , and therefore though appeales be naturall , i see not what is gained thereby . againe , he saith , god hath appointed that the supremacie should lye within the bounds of every free monarchy or state , so that there can be no appeale to any oecumenicall or catholike civill church , for that is against the independant power that god hath given to states . answ . let this be granted also , and are we not still where we were before ? is there in this any thing at all that doth make for the removall of our opinion , as himselfe hath see it down in his objection ? we may truly say we see it not . no , nor in that which doth follow , viz. but in the church it is farre otherwise , for god hath appoynted no vissible monarchy in his church , nor no such independency of policie within a congregation , classicall provinciall or nationall church . answ . for that which is said of a visible monarchy in the church , i confesse it is true , god hath appointed none such . but for the rest , of these words , sith they containe an expresse denyall of the supremacie of all ecclesiasticall iudicatures , except it be the generall councell , i would gladly know how our tenent afore expressed is disproved , or how the necessity of that consequence afore mentioned is at all cleered hereby . if there be no independencie of policie in congregations , nor yet in any synods exc●pt it be the oecumenicall , doth this prove that the supremacie doth lye in synods and not in the congregation ? nothing lesse : for how can our brother prove that it lyes in the one and not in the other , by saying as here he doth , that indeed it lyes in neither ? or how is that consequence made good , that if there must be appeales till we come to the highest , then the synod is the highest ? how is this i say made good by affirming , that neither the congregation nor the synod is the highest ? for my part i must confesse it passeth my understanding to conceive , how the denying of a thing should be the proving and cleering thereof . and yet except this be admitted , i know not how our apprehension in the matter we have in hand is at all disproved . for whereas we say , appeales may be granted and yet the supremacie of synods over congregations will not follow , mr. rutherford for the disproving of what wee apprehend herein , doth bring nothing in the place wee have in hand but only this , that the supremacie doth neither lye in the congregation nor in the synod . which is no disproving of us all , except as i said , that the denying of a thing may suffice for the confirming and cleering thereof . for i conceive if we be disproved the supremacie of synods must be proved and cleered , which here our brother doth not , but on the contrary denies the same . furthermore , if there be no independency of policie within a congregation , a classicall , provinciall or nationall church , as here our brother affirmeth , then what shall become of that which he tels us elsewhere , viz. page 483. that that remedie of our saviour , tell the church , is not needfull in any church above a nationall ? for sure if there be no independencie of policie in any of the lesser churches , nor yet in the nationall church , one would thinke that of our saviour should be needfull in some church above the nationall . or if it be nor needfull in any church above nationall , then one would thinke there should be some indepencie of policie in the nationall church , or in some of the former . for my part i know not how this difficulty will be expedited , i meane how both these sayings of our brother can stand good , except we shall say that which i suppose he will not say , viz. that independencie of policie is no where . and yet i cannot see but this must be said , if both the other sayings stand good ? for if independencie of policie be neither in the nationall church nor in any church above it , nor in any church below it , i know not where we shall have it . againe , if there be no independencie of policie in any of the churches afore named , what shall we say to that passage where our brother doth verily professe , that he cannot see what power of jurisdiction to censure scandals can be in a generall councell , affirming further , that there might be some meerly doctrinall power if such a councell could be had , and that is all , pag 482. for if there be no independencie of policie in any church below a generall councell , one would thinke there should be in the generall councill some power of iurisdiction to censure scandals , yea and an independant power too ▪ or if there be not such power in the generall councill , nor yet in the nationall church , nor in any church below the nationall , we must then say there is no independant power of iurisdiction to censure scandals in any church upon earth . which latter if it be not owned , as i conceive our brother will no● , i know not how the other two can both stand . though appeales be warranted both in church and state by the light of nature , yet appeales to exotique and forraigne judicatures is not warranted by any such light , but rather the contrary . answ . let this be granted also , and are we ever a whit neerer to the point , then before ? is this good arguing , appeales to exotique indicatures are not warrantable , ergo a synod and not the congregation is the supreame iudicature ? is this consequence strong and cleere ? if it be not , how is our tenent removed ? if our brother intend it not for a removall thereof , why is it brought in for answer to an objection proposed by himselfe as ours ? further , let this sentence be compared with the former immediately preceding , and more difficulties still arise . for in this he tels us we see , that appeales to forraigne judicatures are not warrantable ; and in the other he tels us as wee heard afore , that there is no independencie of policie within a congregation , a classicall , provinciall , or nationall church . now to find how these things do agree , i am at a losse , for if there bee no independencie of policie in the congregation , nor the other churches mentioned , i should have thought , it might have been lawfull to have appealed from them to others . for why may there not bee appeales from them in whom no independen●ie of policie is seated ? yet now we are restrained from such appeales , for that all other iudicatures are accounted forraigne and exotique . so that of two sentences the one immediately following upon the other , the former tels us there is no independencie of policie in any of the churches mentioned , which are domesticque and neere , and the other tels us that other churches are so exotique and forraigne , that appeales to them are unwarrantable : and what to say for the reconciling of these things , i must confesse i find not . i grant it is true , appeales to exotique and forraigne iudicatures are not warrantable . but why are we not certified what iudicatures are to be accounted exotique and forraigne ? for here i conceive lyes the pinch of the question ; and unlesse this be determined , the thing in question is still left at uncertainty . for as in civill states there are many cities and townes which have independent power within themselves , as geneva , strasburgh , zuricke , basill , and many others , and appeales from any of these , though to the city or town next adjoyning , would be to a iudicature exotique or forraigne , so some are apt to conceive the like of congregationall churches . and therefore it had need to be cleered that appeales from such churches is not to exotique and forraigne iudicatures ; for if this be not cleered , the unlawfulnesse of appeales to forraigne and exotique powers may be granted , and the question will remaine uncleered . church appeales though warranted by the light of nature , yet it is supposed they be rationall , and grounded on good reason , as that either the matter belong not to the congregation , or then it bee certain or morally presumed the congregation will be partiall or unjust , or the businesse bee difficill and intricate ; and if appeales be groundlesse and unjust , neither christ nor natures light doth warrant them . yea in such case the supremacie from which no man can lawfully appeale , lyeth sometime in the congregation sometime in the classicall presbytery , so as it is unlawfull to appeale for illud tantum possumus quod jure possumus . answ . the short summe is thus much , that appeales are then lawfull when there is just ground and reason for them , otherwise they are unlawfull . now first of all how doth this prove ( for we would still keep to the point ) the necessity of that consequence whereof we speak afore , viz. that if appeales be lawfull , then there is a supremacie of syno●s over congregations . i conceive it is not proved hereby all ; but contrarily appeales may be granted lawfull , when there is just reason and ground for them , and yet the supremacie of synods over congregations is still uncle●red . nextly , it still remaines a question , who must be judge of the reasonablenesse of the appeale and of those cases that are put to shew when they are reasonable , viz. that the matter belongs not to the congregation and the rest that are named : and unlesse it be cleered to whom it belongs to judge these things , we are still left at uncertainty , in the maine matter , viz. in whom the supremacie doth lye , from whom we may not appeale . for to say as our reverend author doth , that in some case the supremacie from which no man can lawfully appeale , lyeth in the congregation , and sometimes it doth not : appeales when they are grounded upon good reason are warrantable , else they are not : when the matter belongs not to the congregation or the congregation will be partiall and unjust , or when the businesse is diffic●ll and intricate , then we may appeale from the congregation , else we may not , these things i say doe not cleere the matter at all , because still the question remaines who must be judge of these things , whether the party appealing , or the congregation from whom , or the synod to whom the appeale is made : and unlesse this be determined , the things mentioned alledged by our brother do afford us small help in the matter for the cleering of it . and therefore , what we said in the answer doth still for ought i see remaine sound , viz. that there must be some finall and supreame judgement that controversies may not by appeales after appeales be spun out in infinitum , and to determine where that supremacie doth lye , is the maine question , which unlesse it be determined , the usefulnesse of appeales may be granted , and yet we shall be still at uncertainty about the thing in question and as much to seeke as before , because that there ought to be appeales till you come to the highest is one thing , and that a synod and n●t the congregation is the highest is another . now whether our brother in that which we have hitherto heard have sufficiently cleered it unto us , that we may know where this supremacie doth lye , i leave it to the iudicious to consider . chap. viii . whether antioch , act. 15. had right to have ended the controversie amongst themselves , if they had been able ; and whether their sending to jerusalem for helpe , or their knowledge that other churches were troubled with the like evill , or the party among themselves who were against the truth , doe prove the contrary . and of supremacy of power in congregations . bvt though our author doe not cleere it to us where the supremacie doth lye yet in this pag 423 , and 424. he useth an argument from the practise of the church of antioch , act. 15. and our own doctrine concerning the same to prove that it doth not lye in the congregation , which argument we are willing to consider . his words are those . that supremacie of power should bee in a congregation without any power of appealing , i thinke our brethren cannot teach . for when the church of antioch cannot judge a matter concerning the necessity of keeping moses law , they by natures direction , act. 15. 2. decree to send paul and barnabas and others to jerusalem , to the apostles and elders , as to an higher judicature , that there truth may be determined : and then he addeth that mr. tompson and my selfe do teach that the church of antioch had jus , power to judge and determine the controversie , but because of the difficulty , had not light to judge thereof ( alledging for this in the margent the answer , chap. 4. page 42. ) ergo saith he , they must acknowledge appeales by natures light warrantable , as well as wee . answ . that appeales are warrantable , and warrantable by natures light till we come to the supreame judicatorie , this we deny not , but have formerly yeelded no lesse . but for that our brother here aymes at , viz. appeales from a congregationall church ( as not being supreame ) to another iudicatory , this we conceive is not proved by the example of the church of antioch , nor by any thing that we have written concerning the same and the reason it because antioch had right and authority to have ended the matter amongst themselves if ability had served thereto : and their sending to ierusalem for helpe may argue want of agreement , or imperfection of light , but argues no want of authority or right within themselves . for it is plain verse 2 , that antioch did endeavour to have ended the matter amongst themselves , and had much disputation about it for that end , afore there was any speech of sending to ierusalem . now this endeavour doth argue their right ; for otherwise it had been sinfull , as being a presuming to do that which did not belong to them . this reason we have rendered afore in the place which our author alledgeth , and he doth not at all remove it ; and therefore we are still of the same mind as before , that antioch was not dependant upon the iurisdiction of other churches , but had independant power within themselves , as many may have who yet need the help of light from others , for their direction in using their power . great kings and monarchs have received light from their councellours without any impeac●ment of their independant power , which they have in themselves , and without any ascribing of that power to those their counsellours . as we said in the place alledged , antioch may send to ierusalem for help , and yet this sending neither prove right of iurisdiction in them who are sent unto , nor want of iurisdiction in them who do send . and therefore whereas our brother saith , antioch because of the difficulty of the controversie , had not light to judge thereof , ergo we must acknowledge appeales to be warrantable , we would rather argue thus , antioch wanted light , ergo counsell and light is to be sought elsewhere ; and thus we conceive the inference will hold : but to say , ergo there must be appeales from the congregation to others in matter of iurisdiction , this we conceive will not follow at all . no more then it will follow , kings or other supreame civill rulers must seek light and direction from their counsellours , ergo there lyes an appeale from them to those counsellours , which consequence none will maintain nor affirme . if the scriptures had said that antioch did never attempt to ●nd that controversie , as knowing that the ending thereof belonged not to them but to others : or if it had said , that the censuring of these obtruders of circumcision had been performed by them of jerusalem , and not by them of antioch as not belonging to antioch but to them of jerusalem , then our brother might have had some ground from antioch to prove the necessity or warrantablenesse of appeales from congregationall churches to other iudicatories : but such no such thing is said , we see not how this example can be any ground for the establishing of such appeales , or the taking away from congregationall churches their power of iurisdiction within themselves . especially , wee see not how this our brother can alledge the same for such a purpose , considering what himselfe hath written elsewhere in this learned treatise of his wherein he examines that answer of ours . two passages in his treatise i propound to consideration , which seeme to me to make for that independant or supreame power in congregations , which here he is disputing against , the one is that which we touched before in his page 413. where he saith that synods in case of neglect of presbyteriall churches are to command the particular churches whom it concerneth , to do their dutie , as in other particulars there named , so in excommunication of offenders ; and further that the synod , act. 15. is to remit the censure of excommunication to the presbytery of antioch and ierusalem , in case of the obstina●ie of these obtruders of circumcision . which i conceive is very truly spoken , and thereupon it followes that there was a supremacie of iurisdiction in that church of antioch , and no necessity of appealing from them to the iurisdiction of others . for ●ith the synods are only to command the churches to do their duty , and to remit the censure of offenders to the churches themselves to whom the offenders belong , it plainly appeareth thereby where the supremacie of iurisdiction doth lye . the other place is in his page 307. where we have these words , viz. the power of jurisdiction ordinary intensive and quo ad essentiam ecclesiae ministerialis , according to the intire essence of a ministeriall church , is as perfect and compleat in one single congregation as in a provinciall , as in a nationall . yea as in the catholike visible body whereof christ is the head . now if there be such perfect & compleat power of iurisdiction in a single congregation , i know not how there can be such necessity of appeales from them to the iurisdiction of others as he is pleading for , nor how that supreame and independant power in congregations can be denyed , which here he disputeth against . for let this compleat and perfect power of iurisdiction be acknowledged as due to such churches , and appeales from them to other iurisdictions will be of small necessity or use . i know indeed this reverend author sayeth in the page last mentioned , and within a few lines of the words which i have here alledged , that a congregation is so a part of the presbytery that it hath not a whole intire compleat intensive power over its own members to excommunicate them — . and therefore the consociated churches must have a power over the members of a congregation . which words i confesse seeme not well to agree with the former , because in the one intire compleat intensive power is denyed to a congregation , and in the other the power of iurisdiction , ordinary intensive , is said to be as compleat and perfect in the congregation as in the great churches . but it is not the latter words but the former which i do stand upon ; and by them ( as i conceive ) the supremacie of congregations is established , and the necessity of appeales from them to other iurisdictions is cleerely takes away . for if the power of iurisdiction be as intire perfect and compleat in the congregation as in the greater churches , as our brother expresly affirmes it to be , i know not the reason why there must be appeales from the iurisdiction of the congregation unto the iurisdiction of those other churches . if the power spoken of were more imperfect and incompleat in the congregation , then it is in the other churches , then there might be more reason or ●ayrer pretence for those appeales : but sith our author confesseth it is no more intire compleat and perfect in these then in the congregation , but as compleat and perfect in the congregation as it is in the other , i am yet to seeke of a sufficient ground for the necessity of appeales from the iurisdiction in a congregation . for is it reasonable to appeale from one iudicatory to another , and yet the power of iurisdiction be as intire compleat and perfect in the former from which the appeale is made , as in the latter to which the cause is brought by such appeale ? it seemes by such appeales we are not like to be much helper , nor much to mend the matter above what it was before , and therefore the usefulnesse and necessity thereof is still uncl●●●● . i thinke the brethren erre in this to teach that antioch had power to determine the controversie , act. 15. when the churches of syria and cicilia , to their knowledge were troubled with the like question as verse 24. may cleere , — i doubt much if they had power to determine a question that so much concerned all the churches . answ . it is not cleere from verse 24. nor from any part of the chapter as farre as i can find , that antioch did know that other churches were troubled with this question ; and if they had known it , i see nothing therein but they might notwithstanding lawfully end the matter so farre as concerned themselves . for when this question was started amongst them by such as came from judea and taught this corrupt doctrine at antioch , the text is very cleere verse 2 , that they had much disputation amongst themselves to have ended the matter , afore there was any speech of sending to ierusalem : which disputation is an argument that they had right to have ended it , if ability had no● been wanting . and as for our brothers reason for the contrary taken from their knowledge that the other churches of syria and cicilia were troubled with the like question , there is not one word in the verse alledged to shew that antioch had knowledge of any such matter , nor is syria and cicilia once mentioned therein : and though they be mentioned verse 23. yet neither doth this verse declare that antioch had any knowledge that this question had ever troubled those other churches . say it be true that indeed they had been troubled therewith , and that the epistle from the synod doth intimate no lesse , this may prove that when the epistle came to be read at antioch , then antioch by this meanes might come to the knowledge thereof ; but all this doth not prove that antioch knew so much afore . and therefore they might endeavour to end the matter amongst themselves , as not knowing for any thing our author hath yet brought to the contrary , that any other churches besides themselves were troubled therewith . but suppose they had known so much , i see nothing in this to hinder but antioch might lawfully cleere up the truth in the question , and censure such of their church as should obstinately hold and teach that false doctrine , notwithstanding their knowledge that others had been troubled with the like doctrine and teachers . suppose a christian family be troubled with lying children , or servants , or such as are disobedient and undutifull in one kind or in another ; suppose they also knew that their neighbour families are troubled with the like , shall this knowledge of theirs hinder the parents or masters in such a family from censuring or correcting these that are under their government , according to their demerits ? if not , why shall antioch be hindered from censuring offending members of their church , only upon this ground because to their knowledge other churches are troubled with the like offenders ? a city or corporation is troubled with drunkards , with theeves , or other vicious and lewd persons , and knoweth that other cities or corporations are troubled with the like : a nationall church , as scotland for example , is troubled with obtruders of ceremonies , service booke , episcopacie or other corruptions , and knoweth that england or other churches are troubled with the like , shall scotland now be hindered from removing these corruptions , and the obtruders of them from amongst themselves , only upon this ground , because england to their knowledge is troubled with the like ? or shall the corporation ●ee hindered from punishing theeves and such other malefactors , only for this reason , because to their knowledge other corporations are troubled with the like lewd persons ? i suppose it is easie to see the insufficiency and invalidity of such consequences ? and therefore if antioch did know that other churches were troubled with the like offenders , as themselves were troubled withall , this needs not to hinder but they may determine questions that arise amongst themselves , and may censure such of their members as shall trouble the church or brethren therewith , and obstinately persist in so doing . this being considered withall , that in thus doing they do not go beyond their line , nor meddle with matters any farther but as they are within their compasse . for when divers churches are troubled with the like corruptions in doctrine or practise , and some one of those churches by using the key of doctrine or discipline or both , doth endeavour the removall of these corruptions , they do not hereby attempt and endeavour to remove them out of other churches ( which might be an appearance of stretching their line beyond their compasse ) but out of their own church , and only so farre as concernes themselves , and in so doing no man can justly say they meddle further then their power doth reach . but he gives another reason why antioch had not right to determine the question , and this is taken from the strong party that was in antioch against the truth , which was such as that they opposed paul and barnabas : concerning which he saith , that when the greatest part of a church as antioch is against the truth , as is cleere , act. 15. 2. he beleeveth in that they loose their jus , their right to determine eatenus in so farre ; for christ hath given no ecclesiasticall right and power to determine against the truth , but onely for truth ; and therefore in this , appeales must be necessary . answ . how is it cleere that the greatst part of the church at antioch was against the truth ? the text doth not say so much , but only this , that certain men which came from iudea , taught the brethren and said except ye be circumcised ye cannot be saved , and that paul and barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them about the matter , and that in the issue they determined that paul and barnabas and certaine others should go up to ierusalem about the question : thus much the scripture witnesseth , act. 15. 1 , 2. but whether they that held that corrupt doctrine at antioch were the major or the minor part of the church , the text doth not expresse , except we shall say that where a false doctrine is taught by some , and greatly opposed and disputed against by others , there it must needs bee that the greatest part are tainted with that false doctrine , which wee thinke is no good consequence . and therefore whereas our author saith , the greatest part of this church was against the truth , and that so much is cleere from verse 2. i answer , first that i do not perceive this cleerenesse , neither from verse 2 , nor from any other place of the chapter . nextly , suppose this were cleere , this may argue that they wanted ability and light to end the matter , but must it needs argue that they wanted right though they had been able ? or shall we say that they who want ability to doe things as they should be done , do therefore want right to ●●al● in them at all ? i conceive it will not follow , and the reason is because this right in churches is naturall , or connaturall to every church , and this want of ability is only accidentall , and therefore this latter cannot totally hinder the former . that light of government is naturall or connaturall to every church , our brother own words do testifie page 341. where he saith this , viz. supposing that christ have a visible church it is morall that she have power of government also , in so farre as she is a church ; yea , power of government upon this supposition is naturall or rather connaturall . and in page 307 , he saith as was alledged before , that the power of iurisdiction ordinary intensive — . is as perfect and compleat in one single congregation as in a provinciall , or in a nationall ; yea , as in the catholike visible body whereof christ is the head . and in page 383. he saith , that to a congregation christ hath given by an immediate flux from himselfe a politicall church power intrinsci●ally in it , derived from none but immediately from iesus christ : and the like he saith of a presbyteriall church . now whether antioch was a congregationall church as we hold , or a presbyteriall as is holden by this our brother , yet it is cleere by those words of his here alledged , that being essentially a church ; it had a politicall church power intrinscically within it selfe , yet a perfect and compleat power of iurisdiction , yea and such a power as was naturall or connaturall unto her , as she was a church . but now the light of knowledge whereby they should be enabled well to use this power , did not adde any power unto them which they had not before , not did the want of it , being but accidentall , deprive them of that power , which was intrinscicall , essentiall and connaturall unto them as they were a church of christ . onely this want did hinder their ability to expresse their power well , but their right as being a thing connaturall did still remaine . our brother hath a saying or two about the civill power , which by proportion may well illustrate this that i am speaking o●●bo it the church-power . in one place he saith thus , there is a two-fold power in a king , one in a king as a king , and this is a like in all , and ordinary regall , coactive : whether the king be an heathen , a turke , or a sound believing christian : there is another power in a king as such a king , either as a propheticall king as david and solomon or as a christian believing king. and of this latter he saith , that it is not a new regall power , but potestas execuliba , a power or gracious ability to execute the kingly power , which he had before as a king ; page 387. &c. 388. ●ow why may it not be said in like sort , there is in a church two-fold power , one in a church as it is a church , and this is a like in all true churches of christ , whether the church in this or that particular question have light to discerne , and hold the truth , or otherwise : another in a church , as it is sound believing church , holding the truth in such or such question ; and this is but only a gracious ability to exercise the power which they had before , not adding to them any new power at all ? againe , in his page 393. he hath these words . though the king were not a christian magistrate , yet hath he a kingly power to command men as christians , and it is by accident that he cannot in that state command christian duties , and service to christ ; because he will not , and cannot command those dutyes remaining ignorant of christ ; even as a king ignorant of necessary civill dutyes cannot command them , not because he wanteth kingly power to command these civill things , for undeniably he is a iudge in civill things , but because he hath not knowledge of them . and may we not say in like sort , though a church want the knowledge of the truth , in some particular question , yet they have a church power to determine such questions , & to command obedience therein , and it is by accident they cannot in that state determine rightly , because they will not , being ignorant of the truth therein , not because they want church-power to determine such matters , but because they have not the knowledge of them . againe a little after in the same p. he tels us , that christianity addeth no new fatherly power to a father over his children , nor giveth a new husband right to the husband , once an heathen over his wife ; for an heathen father is as essentially a father over his children as a christian father , and an heathen husband an heathen master &c. are all as essentially husband , masters , &c. as are the christian husbands , masters , &c. and may we not as well say , soundnesse of knowledge in such or such a particular question addeth no new church power to a christian church over their own members , nor giveth a new church right over them which they had not before ; for a church that wanteth such knowledge is as essentially a church , invested with church power over her members as is another church ? for ought i perceive the cases are alike ; and if soundnesse of knowledge do not give to a church their church-right in this or that question , how can want of that knowledge deprive them of that right ? sure one would thinke the whole substance of christianity might do as much for the adding of kingly right , fatherly right , husband right , &c. as soundnesse of knowledge in some one particular question , for the adding of church right ; & that the want of all christianity should be as available for taking away the kingly right , the fatherly right , &c. as the want of knowledge in one particular point for the taking away of church-right ; and sith we have our brothers own testimony cleer and full for the one , it seems to me the cases are so parallel and proportionable , that the other is unavoidable : i meane thus , sith in the one case the whole substance of christianity doth not give power , nor the want thereof take away the same by our brothers own teaching , i know not how in the other case soundnesse of knowledge in one particular question should give power or right , & want of such knowledge take away the same . and so for antioch in particular , if it were as our brother supposeth that the greater part of them did hold against the truth in that question about circumcision , i see not how this could deprive them of their church right which they had before . as for our brothers reason that christ hath given no ecclesiasticall right and power to determine against the truth , but onely for the truth , this saying i confesse is very true , but doth not suffice for the purpose for which hee brings it , viz. to prove that antioch being ignorant of the truth in that question about circumcision , or holding against the truth therein did thereby lose their church right to determine . for if this reason be good , then a man may conclude against that power in heathen kings , parents , and husbands , to governe their subjects , children and wives ; which our brother , as we heard afore , hath granted and taught : for suppose that antioch were ignorant of the truth in that particular is it not cleere that the kings , parents , and husbands mentioned are ignorant of the truth in many more matters ? and it antioch do hereupon loose their right , because christ hath given no power to determine against the truth but for the truth , how will it be avoided but by the same reason , ●he kings and the others mentioned must likewise lose their right to governe their own subjects and families ? for the lord gives no right , i hope , to pagans against the truth , no more then he doth unto churches . and therfore if the reason be valid and strong in the one case , and for the purpose , for which our brother brings it , it seemes to be as strong in the other case also , which shall be contrary to what our brother himselfe doth teach . in a word ▪ churches and antioch in particular have right to determine questions , and they ought to determine only according to the truth : they have formally a right to determine , and when their determinations are according to truth , then they will ●ind vi mat●●i● which else they will not . they have right to determine in fore humano , and if their determinations be for matter agreeable to truth , they will be ratifyed in foro div●●o , but not else . now our brothers arguing doth seeme to confound these two ; and because of the latter which is freely granted , he would conclude against the former , which we thinke is not good reasoning ; but on the contrary do still thinke , that though churches ought to give out no determinations but such as are agreeable to truth , and that otherwise their determinations , in respect of the matter of them will not bind before god , yet for all this they may have right formally and in foro humano to judge , and to determine of such things . moreover , if this were granted for true , that antioch when they are against the truth do lose their right to determine controversies , yet we are not hereby much neerer to an issue , unlesse it be determined withall who must be judge whether they be against the truth or no , and the reason is because if they be not against the truth but for it , then i hope , it will be granted that they doo not lose their right at all . the question therefore still remaines , who hath this ministeriall power to iudge whether this or that church , antioch or any other be against the truth or for it ; and unlesse this be cleered we are but where we were before . but to draw towards an end of this passage about the church of antioch : whether they had right to determine controversies when ability failed , or whether they did when lose that right , i will here transcribe a few words of our brother as i find them in his second , 331. page . wherein he either cleerely yeeldeth the cause , and saith the same that we do or i am much mistaken . the words are these , there is a difference between ability to judge , and right or power to judge . a presbyteriall church , ( and he disputeth in six pages together to prove antioch such a one , page 470. 471. &c. sequ . ) may have right , jus , and ecclesiastic●ll law to judge of a point , to the judging whereof they want ability : therefore de facto , it belongeth to an higher synod where more learned men are , though de jure the presbytery may judge it . these words i wish to be well considered . for whereas in the place we have been speaking of , he saith antioch , the greater part of them being against the truth , did lose their jus , their right to determine , for which as wee have heard , he gives this reason , because christ hath given no right and power to determine against the truth but for it , yet now wee see he grants distinction between ability and right , and saith , a presbyteriall church may still retaine this latter of their right , even then , when they want the other of ability . which two sayings whether they do perfectly agree , and whether in the latter of them he do not plainly come up to us , against whom he hath been disputing in the former , i leaue it to the wise in heart , and especially to himselfe to consider . for , for my part i must confesse that these two sayings , a presbyteriall church as antioch may have right , jus to judge a point , to the judging whereof they may want ability ; and , antioch a presbyteriall church wanting ability did thereby lose their right , or jus to determine the point , these two i say , are such sayings as are not easie for me to reconcile . lastly , if it be said our brother doth not deny unto antioch , or a church in error all power simply to determine , but only to determine tali mode , that is , to determine against the truth ; for his words are , they lose their jus their right eatenus , in so far . i answer , he hath such a word indeed , as eatenus , in so farre : but if any shall say he meant no more in this dispute , but only that such a church hath no right to determine against the truth , i conceive that he that shall so say , shall therein impute some fault unto our brother , even the fault of wresting mr. tompsons tenent and mine , and suggesting against us unto his reader , as if we had held such a thing as we never wrote nor thought . for it is plain , that our brother in his pag. 424. is disputing against us ; for he saith , that we teach the church of antioch had jus , power to judge and determine the controversie , but because of the difficulty had not light to judge thereof , and sets down master tompsons name and mine as the men that so teach , in answer , page 42. and a few lines after he saith , i thinke the brethren erre in this , to teach , that antioch had power to determine the controversie , act. 15. and then hee gives two reasons for the contrary . so that it is manifest that he intends this dispute against us . now what have we said in this matter ? have we delivered any such thing , that antioch had right to determine against the truth ? let the answer be viewed in the place which he alledgeth , viz. page 42. and i am sure no such grosse tenent will be there found , no nor any where else in our writing . that which we have said , is this , that antioch had right to have determined the matter if ability had served thereto : but for right to determine against the truth , we never spake one word that soundeth that way . our brother therefore intending this dispute against us , and plainly expressing so much , and our tenent being no other then as i have said , it must therefore needs follow that his intendment is , that antioch had no right to determine that matter . but for right to determine against the truth , he cannot confute such a tenent as ours , we never having delivered any such thing , but he must withall be culpable of manifest mistaking and mis-reporting of us to the world ; and we are , and must be slow to believe that a man of such worth would willingly do us such wrong . it remains therefore , that right to determine and not right to determine against the truth , is the thing which he oppos●t● as ours , and therefore it is that in this sence and meaning i have here applyed my answer . the 〈…〉 thus much ; that antioch had right to determine against the 〈…〉 that may soone be con●uted , but the tenent is none of ours : that 〈…〉 to determine , is indeed our tenent , and whether this be con●uted 〈…〉 , let the wise and iudicious consider . chap. ix . whether the congregationall way or the presbyteriall doe make the gospell more difficultive then the law. of excommunication by a church that hath only three elders , and of doing things sudainly . in the latter end of his page 424 meaning mr t●mpson and me , and alledging page 17 , 18. of the answer . he writes that we say our opposites do much judaize in that they multiply appeales upon appeales , from a congregation to a classis , then to a synod , then to a nationall assembly , then to an oec●●●●nicke councell ; and this way while the world endureth causes are never determined , and synods cannot alwayes be had ; even as in ierusalem the supreame iudicature was farre remote from all proselites , as from the eunuch of ethiopia , act. 8. and from the remote●● parts of the holy land : but god hath provided better for us in the new testament , where every congregation which is at hand may decide the controversie : and then , page 425. he subjoyneth his answer . answ . though i deny not but some of the things here alledged are written by us in the pa●●● nam●d , yet that they are written for the purpose which our brother expresseth , viz. to shew that our brethren of the opposite judgement do much iudaize , that i do utterly deny . for the places being viewed will plainly witnesse that wee bring the things alledged for another end , viz. to shew whether the way that is called independencie , do make the people ( as some have thought of it ) more defective and improvident then their law. for this being objected against that way , wee in answer thereto do shew by sundry particulars , that it is not that way that is justly culpable in this respect , but the way of our brethren of the other iudgement ; one way on the one side making the state of christians in these dayes in some things equall to the iewes , and in other things more excellent ; and on the other side the way of our brethren making our condition in many things more defective then was the condition of the iewes . so that ( not iudayzing but ) making our condition more defective then the iewes , is the thing which we here note in the doctrine of our brethren . nor do i see how our brother in his answer doth free their doctrine and way from being justly culpable in this respect . if we had intended the thing which he reporteth , we would never have used such a reason as he truly report● us to use , viz. that by appeales upon appeales causes according to our brethrens way may be so protracted as never to be determined nor ended . for this reason hath neither strength nor colour of strength for such a purpose , as he saith we bring it for , inasmuch as it is well known , that the iewes had a supreame iudicatory for the finall ending of causes among them . and therefore to say that our brethren do iudaize , and then to give that for a reason which doth shew that the iewes and they are very unlike , the iewes having a supreame iudicatory for the finall ending of cruses , and they having none , were to shew our selves very irrationall or worse : end why our brother should put such a thing upon us , we being no wayes guilty thereof , we do not know . but we desire that our reason may be applyed to our own conclusion , to which we did and do apply it , and not to this other expressed by our brother , which indeed is none of ours , and then we are content that rationall and judicious readers may judge whether or no there be any sufficient weight therein . which that they may more readily do , i have here recollected the same into this short summe , that they may briefly behold it with one view , viz if the iewes had a supreame iudicatory for the finall ending of causes , and the congregationall way hath the like : if the iewes had a standing iudicatory alwayes in readinesse for the hearing of causes , and the congregationall way hath the like : and if the supreame iudicatory among the iewes was very farre remote from many of them , and in the congregationall way be more convenient and neere at hand , then the congregationall way is in some things equall to the iewes and in other things more excellent . but the first is true in all the particulars , and therefore the second is true also . againe , if the iewes had a supreame iudicatory for the finall ending of causes , and the way of our brethren hath not : if the iewes had a standing iudicatory alwayes in readinesse for the hearing of causes and the way of our brethren hath not : and if the supreame iudicatory among the iewes was very remote from many of them , and synods among our brethren are the same , then the way of our brethren is in some things as defective as the iewes , and in other things more defective then theirs . but the first is true in all the particulars of it , and therefore the second is true also . both the assumptions in all the branches thereof , i conceive are cleerely proved in the answer in the pages which our brother doth alledge , and whether the consequence be good let the wise judge . having thus reduced our argumentation to its own proper and genuine shape , let us now consider of mr. rutherfords answer thereto . first , saith he , the speedinesse of ending controversies in a congregation is badly comprised with the suddainnesse and temerity of delivering men to satan upon the decision of three elders , without so much as asking advise of any classes of elders , and with deciding questions deepe and grave which concerneth many churches , which is a putting of a private sickle in a common and publicke harvest . answ . if advise from other churches may be had , we never spake word for doing weighty matters without the same , but in such cases it is both our practise and advise to make use thereof , and therefore this delivering men to satan in way of temerity or rashnesse toucheth not us whose opinion and practise is other wise . as for suddainnesse , i conceive if the same be sometimes accompanyed with temerity and rashnesse , and so worthy to be blamed , yet not alwayes : for in the reformation of the house of god in the dayes of hezekiah , it is said , that the thing was done suddainly . 2 chron. 29. 36. where suddainnesse doth not signifie any sinfull temerity or r●shnesle . but contrarily doth testifie gods great goodnesle that had so prepared the people to so good a worke : for this cause this suddainnesse was to hezekiah , and gods people an occasion and ground of great joy and gladnesse , which temerity could not have been . and therefore suddainnesse and temerity must not alwayes be confounded and coupled together , as if they were the same . though hasty delivering of men to satan without due consideration be not good , yet overlong delay of due proceeding against delinquents is bad also , for the holy ghost tels us because sentence against an evill worke is not executed speedily , therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set to do evill , eccl. 8. 11. for which cause execute judgement in the morning , that is to say speedily is sometimes expresly required , jer. 21. 12. which being spoken of justice to be executed by civill authority doth hold by proportion and like reason in ecclesiasticall censures , for as much as speedinesle is a duty , and delayes are daangerous in the one case as well as in the other . whereas our author thinkes much that excommunication should proceed upon the decision of three elders , as we know nothing but a congregation may have more elders then the three , if god provide them fit men and the numerousnesse of the congregation so require , in which case our author saith nothing to the contrary , but they may have power to excommunicate , so if they have but three , we know nothing in this , but they may have power to excommunicate notwithstanding , since himselfe teacheth , due right . page 61. that the iewes had their congregationall churches as we have , and had their meeting in their synagogues , not only for doctrine , but also for discipline and excommunication ; which if it be so , it seemes there might be excommunication by as small a number as three , unlesse it could appeare that in every synagogue the elders and rulers in it were a greater number then is here mentioned , which is more then i do remember to be expressed in scripture . yea and further he tels us , that the inferiour iudicatures in israel had power of life and death , page 315. now the iudges in these inferiour iudicatures though they must never be under that number of three , yet they did not alwayes exceed the same , for ought that doth appeare . and if three iudges had power of life and death , why may not a congregation with three elders have power of excommunication ? moreover , in his page 454. he gives us these words for a proposition , that it floweth connaturally from a church to which agreeth the essence of church to exercise jurisdiction over all its own members ; to which those words do also agree , page 287. viz. the power and right to discipline is a propriety essentiall to a church and is not removed from it till god remove the candlesticke , and the church cease to be a visible church : and in page 302. hee affords us these words for an assumption , that a congregation is a church , wanting nothing of the being and essence of a church : and hence the conclusion is obvious , that a congregation may exercise iurisdiction over all it own members : and in as much as a congregation in which are but three elders , is a congregation , it followeth that a congregation in which are but three elders may exercise such iurisdiction . this conclusion our author cannot deny in as much as it necessarily and directly followeth from premises which are both his own . yea in his page 302. h● saith , that this is a principle of church policie , that every politicke body of christ hath power of church government within it selfe . either therefore a congregation with only three elders is no politicke body of christ , or else it must have power of church government within it selfe . besides , if the power of iurisdiction ordinary intensive be according to the entire essence of a ministeriall church be as compleat and perfect in one single congregation , as in a provinciall , nationall , or catholike church as our author saith it is p. 307. it is then a marvell why such a congregation having onely three elders , may not have power to excommunicate . lastly , his words are expresse , page 338. where there are not many churches consociated , then ordination and excommunication may be done by one single congregation . if therefore a congregation have not above three elders , yet being not consociated with other churches , it may lawfully excommunicate , by his own grant . for deciding questions that concerne many churches , if they decide them no further but onely as they concerne themselves , this is no putting a private sickle in a common and publike harvest , but a medling with matters onely so farre as they doe concerne themselves . secondly , he saith , all appeales without warrant from christs will we condemne , as the abuse of appeales to a court which is known shall never be , page 425. answ . if appeales without warrant from christ will be condemned , why are wee not told what appeales they are , that have the warrant of christs will , and what appeales have not ? for such a generall word a● this , of the warrant of christs will , without some further and more particular explication doth leave the matter as darke as it was before . if the meaning be , that only such appeales are unwarrantable as are made to a court which is known shall never be , and that all others are warrantable , then it will follow that appeales to generall councels and all other courts , except only from a generall councell are warrantable , for who doth certainely know that a generall councell will never be ? and so by this meanes the classes , 〈◊〉 synod , and the nationall church are all deprived of supremacie , and independencie of iurisdiction as well as the congregacion . thirdly , he saith , antiochs appeale to a synod 200 miles distant as our brethren say , was no judaizing but that which paul and the apostles were guilty of as well as we . answ . whether antioch and jerusalem were 200 miles distant or no as we have never affirmed so much , so i will not stand now to inquire . but this i stand upon , that no scripture doth witnesse that antioch did appeale to jerusalem in the point of iurisdiction , about which our question doth lye , if they did appeale to them for a doctrinall decision or determination of the question , that nothing hindereth our cause who do not deny such a doctrinall power in synods . but their power of iurisdiction is the thing that should be proved . lastly , if this example of antioch doe prove that there may bee and ought to bee appeales from congregations to synods , though those synods be 200 miles distant , then that which wee said in the answer is here confessed to be true : viz. that according to our brethrens iudgement the state of the church in point of discipline is as defective and burdensome in the time of the gospell , as it was in the dayes of the old testament . for as then the supreame iudicatory at jerusalem was many miles distant from such as dwelt in the furthest parts of the holy land , and specially from the proselites that dwelt in other countries , so here our author seemes to yeeld that in these dayes of the new testament there must or may be appeales to synods , though they be 200 miles distant . i hope then if others blame our way for making the gospell as defective and improvident as the law , or more defective then it , yet this our brother will not do so , but on the contrary will acknowledge for us and with us , that the way which himselfe pleads for , is more justly culpable in this respect . fourthly , he saith , matters concerning many churches must be handled by many . answ . this may be granted in a safe sence without any prejudice at all unto our cause , for we are well content that so farre as they concerne many they may be handled by many , so that each congregation may have liberty to deale in them so farre as they concerne themselves . and thus you have all which mr. rutherford hath brought against that passage of ours wherein we say it is not our way but theirs , that doth make the gospell more defective then the law , instead whereof he is pleased to make us say that they doe iudaize ; but for eleering their way from that which wee object against the same , or for convincing out way to be guilty thereof as by some hath been objected , which is the thing in question in the place by him alledged , for ought i perceive there is nothing in the foure particulars of his answer , that doth any thing availe to either of these : for if a rash delivering of men to satan have more evill in it then speedy ending of controversies hath good ▪ if appeales without warrant from christs will , be unlawfull : if antioch did appeale to a synod 200 miles distant , and if matters concerning many churches must be ended by many , which foure particulars are the whole substance of his answer , what is there in all this ( for i would gladly apply his answers to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the thing in question , what is there i say in all this that 〈◊〉 convince our way to be more defective then the way under the old testament ? or that doth cleere the way of our brethren from being truly culpable thereof ▪ let all the evill that can be found in rash delivering men to satan be extended to the utmost , and let the rest of the foure particulars be granted , doth all this sufficiently cleere it that the way which we plead for is more defective , or the way of our brethren more perfect and excellent , then the way that was used under the law ? if they do not amount to the cleering of this , they do not come up to cleere the thing in question , which for ought i perceive doth still remaine as it was notwithstanding all that our brother here brings . chap. x. whether the necessity of discipline be greater then of sacraments : and whether a congregation that hath neighbours may not exercise intirenesse of iurisdiction as well as one that hath none : and whether a man may take on him the whole ministery having no outward calling thereto ; and may not as well take on him one act of baptizing or ministring the lords supper . the next place where i find our reverend brother dealing with the answer , is in page 453 , 454. where disputing that there was a presbyteriall church at ierusalem , he saith it is objected by us ( alledging the answer , page 6. ) that if a church in an iland by divine institution and so the first congregation as ierusalem which did meete in solomons porch had once an intire power of iurisdiction , though in an extraordinary case , the case is ordinary , as in the dominion of wales there is scarce a congregation to be found within 20 , or 30 miles . 2. suppose the case were extraordinary and rare , may they violate the ordinary rules of christ ? for so some may thinke and say that though according to ordinary rules , baptisme and the lords supper must be dispensed only by men and by ministers , yet in the want of these the one may be dispensed by a woman or mid-wife , and both of them by such as are no ministers . and then hee subjoyneth his answer . answ . our authors scope and intention being to prove a presbyteriall church at ierusalem , i cannot apprehend a good reason , why now he should fall upon the place of the answer alledged , in as much at the place makes not any mention of ierusalem at all , nor of any presbyteriall church there , either one way or other . but it seemes he was willing to go something out of his way that so he might have a saying to the answer , yet if it must needs be so , i could have desired that the words of the answer might have been kept , without making alteration by leaving some things out , and putting others in of his own accord , and by mentioning others with another face then was ever intended by us . for though he is pleased to mention a church in an iland and the first founded congregation at ierusalem , in his objection which he● brings in under mr. tompsons name and mine , yet he that shall peruse the place will find that neither of these are once mentioned by us at all , and why then they should be brought in as ours i do not know . and for the former part of our answer , wherein we show that for a christian congregation to want neighbour congregations to whom they may with conveniency have recourse , and not so unusuall as some may imagine , we do not only alledge for that end the dominion of wales as our brother doth report , but also the remoter parts of the north , and specially the state of things in times and places of generall persecution and generall prophanenesse , and new plantations in heathen countries ; all which our brother doth omit , as if wee had not mentioned any of them . and whereas we mention the scarcity of congregations in the remoter parts of wales and of the north , as intimated by our reverend brother mr. herle in that learned and loving discourse of his , whereto we doe apply our answer , mr. rutherford concealeth that we do mention this , as the apprehension or intimation of another , and instead thereof makes bold to set it downe under our name , as if we had delivered it as our own . all which alterations , omissions and additions are such as wee for our parts would not willingly have made the like in any worke of his nor of any other man. for let such liberty as this be taken in repeating what men do speake or write , and misapprehension of their true ●ntent and meaning must needs be bred hereby in the minds of all those that shall read or heare such reports and beleeve the same . neverthelesse , let us consider what our brother doth returne in his answer . we thinke saith he , a ministery and discipline more necessary to a congregation in a remote iland , or to the church of ierusalem before they increase to such a number as cannot meet for their numerous multitude in one congregation , then the sacraments when there be no ministers to dispense them . answ . would not one thinke by th●se words , and the other laid down in the objection , that we had spoken something of a church in an iland , and of the church in jerusalem ? else why should these be objected , and answered as ours ? but th truth is we have not spoken one word either of the one or the other of these particulars : which will plainly appeare to him that shall view the place . something wee have spoken in the generall of a congregation that wants neighbours , which we did being thereunto led by our reverend brother mr. herle , but of a church in an iland , and of the church at ierusalem in particular , of which mr. rutherford heere speaks , of these we have said nothing . second , the former part of our answer , that for a congregation to want neighbours is not so unusuall as some may imagine , this mr. rutherford wholly passeth over in silence , only he propounds it in his objection in such sort as we have heard , and so leaves it , whereby it seemes he yeelds the thing . and thereupon it followes , that intirenesse of iurisdiction in a congregation must be yeelded frequently lawfull , it being frequently seene , that congregations want neighbours in which case their intirenesse of iurisdiction is not denyed . third , for the second part of our answer , we thus expresse our selves therein . viz. that we suppose it is good to take heed how farre we yeeld it lawfull in extraordinary cases to transgresse and violate ordinary rules , whereof wee render the reason , least some body doe thence inferre the lawfulnesse of ministring sacraments by non-ministers , in case ministers be wanting . this is that which we have said in this matter . if therefore mr. rutherford would take away what we have said herein , he must say it is not good nor needfull to take such heed , but men may yeeld it lawfull in such cases to transgresse and violate ordinary rules , and never need to take heed how farre they yeeld therein . this indeed were contradictory to what we have said , and if this be once cleered for truth , then i must confesse our saying is cleerely disproved . but the cleering of this we hope our brother will never attempt : sure yet he hath not done it , and so our saying yet remaines as it was . fourth , whereas he saith he thinkes a ministery and discipline more necessary in the cases he speaks of , then sacraments and there be no ministers , though this be not directly opposite to what we have said , yet because i would consider of every thing wherein he seemes to ayme at us , therefore i am willing to consider of this also . our reverend brother thinkes discipline in the cases mentioned more necessary then sacraments : and yet in his page 287 , 288. handling that question , whether discipline be a marke of the visible church , and laying down sundry distinctions about the same , hee gives us these severall propositions in termes : first , care to exercise discipline may be wanting in a true church . second , right discipline is not necessary to the essence of a visible church as a city may bee without wals , a garden without a hedge . third , the exercise of discipline may be wanting , and the church a true visible church . fourth , the church may retaine the essence and being of a visible church , and yet have no discipline in actuall use or little , in which place he cites and approves the judgement of parker , cartwright and others ; who make discipline necessary only to the wel-being of the church , as being not indifferent but commanded in the word and necessary in respect of its end . now if this be all the necessity that is in discipline , how is discipline more necessary then sacraments ? for may not as much bee said of them as here is said of discipline ? are not sacraments necessary to the well-being of the church , as being commanded in the word , as well as discipline is ? and serving for excellent ends , as well as discipline doth ? i suppose it will n●● be denyed , and therefore the necessity of discipline above sacraments doth not yet appeare . especially if that be considered withall which our brother teacheth else-where . viz. in his second p. 211. & sequ . where he tels us , that sacraments are not only declarative signes , but also reall exhibitive seales of grace , having a causality in them to make a thing that was not , and so excelling all civill seales which do adde no new lands to the owner of the charter sealed therewith . now if sacraments be thus excellent and effectuall , how is it that in the place wee have in hand , discipline is made more necessary then they ? for a greater elogie then here hee gives to sacraments , i suppose himselfe would not give unto discipline . yea in p. 302 he expresly affirmes , that preaching of the word and administration of the sacraments are essentiall notes of the visible church . but of discipline i conceive he will not say the same , sure it is in the page following distinguishing betwixt notes of the church which are necessary ad●sse , to the very being of a visible church , and such as are necessary only ad bene esse , to the well-being thereof , he expresly makes discipline a worke or note of this second sort , and as we heard ere-while , he in page 287 expresly affirmes it is not necessary to the essence of a church . and therefore it is some marvell why now 〈◊〉 makes discipline more necessary then sacraments . but he gives us two reasons of this greater necessity of discipline then of sacraments . first , that intire power of discipline in a congregation that wants neighbours is not extraordinary second , that there is no such morall necessity of sacraments , as there is of discipline , page 455. concerning the former his words are these , viz. that the church be in an iland it selfe alone may possibly be extraordinary , but that in such a case they have intire power of discipline whole and entire within themselves to excommunicate scandalous persons is not extraordinary . wherein first of all i observe a difference between him and our reverend brother mr. herle , who having granted that where there is no consociation or neighbour-hood of congregations , there a single congregation must not be denyed intirenesse of iurisdiction , doth presently adde that the case is extraordinary , and so fals not within the compasse of the question of the ordinary rule of church-government : independencie of churches , p. 2. plainly confessing that the case is extraordinary , whereas mr. rutherford here saith it is not . second , as he expresly differs from mr. herle , so it is considerable whether his words do well agree with themselves . for saith he , that the church be in an iland it selfe alone may be extraordinary , but that in such case they have entire power of iurisdiction of discipline within themselves , to excommunicate scandalous persons , is not extraordinary . which saying needs good explication . for it seemes hard to conceive how the power and actions of any subject or efficient should be more usuall and ordinary then it s very being and subsistance : which yet must needs bee , if this stand good that the being of a church in an iland is extraordinary , and yet the power of such a church to excommunicate is usuall and ordinary third , if their power of discipline , yea intire power be in the case expressed or●●●ary , shall we then say that if the case ●e otherwise so that a church be not alone but have neighbours , entirenesse of power in such a case is extraordinary ? it seemes a● must ●ay 〈◊〉 , or else wee must say that intirenesse of power in both cases is ordinary . if this latter be said , it is as much as we desire : for then i hope it must not be a small 〈◊〉 ordinary matter , that must hinder a church that hath neighbours from exercising 〈…〉 ●●●●diction within themselves , no more then a church that lives alone , 〈…〉 power being ordinary in them both . for if it be so in them both , in the one as well as in the other , i know not why any small or ordinary matter should hinder the one church any more then the other from the use and exercise of such entire power . if we say that entirenesse of power in a church that hath neighbours is extraordinary , though in a church that is alone it be ordinary , besides that such a saying sounds harshly and seemes very improbable , we shall by this meanes make cases extraordinary to be very frequent & usuall , in as much as all men know it is very usuall for congregationall churches to have neighbours : and so if entirenesse of power in a church that hath neighbours be extraordinary , it will follow that extraorninary power is very usuall and frequent ; so that inconveniences on each side do seeme inevitably to follow against our brothers cause , upon this which here he affirmeth , that entirenesse of power in a church that is alone is not extraordinary . but let us here his reason in the subsequent words , why this entirenesse of power in a church that is alone is not extraordinary . for it floweth saith he , continually from a church , to which agreeth the essence of a church , to exercise iurisdiction over all its own members . and i suppose he must meane this of iurisdiction entire and compleat , for of this is the question , and a few lines afore , he expresly cals it entire power of discipline , whole and entire within themselves . now if this be true which here is said , as for my part i conceive no other of it , that it floweth connaturally from a church , to which agreeth the essence of a church to exercise entire iurisdiction over all its own members , then it will follow that a church that hath neighbours as well as a church that hath none must have this entirenesse of iurisdiction , sith the essence of a church doth agree to the one as well as to the other , to a church that hath neighbours as well as to a church that is alone . our author tels us page 302. that a congregation in an iland is a church properly so called , and hath the essentiall notes of a visible church agreeing to it , and wants nothing of the being and essence of a church . and if this be true of a church that is alone , shall we thinke it is not true of a church that hath neighbours ? doth the accession of neighbours to a congregation take away from such a congregation the essence of a church which it had before ? i conceive none will so say . and if every church to which agreeth the essence of a church may exercise entire iurisdiction over all its own members , as our brother doth acknowledge , it followeth unavoidably thereupon that all congregationall churches , such as have neighbours and such as have none may exercise such entirenesse of iurisdiction , sith the essence of a church doth agree unto them all . vnlesse he will deny the essence of a church to a congregation which hath neighbours , which hee freely yeeldeth to a congregation which is alone , he must grant entirenesse of iurisdiction unto them both , because he grants it to the one upon this reason , that the essence of a church doth agree thereunto , which reason if it agree to both , how can i● be avoided but entirenesse of iurisdiction must be in both ? and how can it be affirmed or imagined that a congregation having the essence of a church afore and have neighbours , should lose this essence of a church when neighbours are added to it ? a family having the essence of a family now it is alone , doth not lose this essence by meanes of other families added . nor doth a city that is such , as it is alone lose the essence of a city by the accesse of other cities : and the same might be said of a corporation , a province , a kingdome , or any other society whatsoever . and that it should be otherwise with a congregationall church , that it should lose the essence of a church as other neighbours churches do arise , doth seeme very strange and unreasonable . and let the essence of a church be still retayned by such a congregation , as i conceive it must , and then intirenesse of iurisdiction must not be denyed to such a congregation , sith it doth flow connaturally from every church to which the essence of a church doth agree . if there bee no more consociated with that church that is by accident , and an extraordinary exigence of gods providence . as a master of a family is to educate his children in the feare of god , but if god take all his children from him by death , he doth not transgresse the ordinary rule of educating his children in the feare of god , as he hath none . answ . if this comparison doe suit the present purpose and case in hand , then this master of a family is a congregation , and these his children are the members of other congregations : and so as a master of a family needs not to educate his children in gods feare , when they are all taken from him by death , so a congregation needs not to governe the members of other congregation as there are no other congregation extant , but it selfe is left alone in an iland . in which kind of arguing sundry things may be excepted against . as fir●● of all that there should be such power in a congregation as in a master of a family over his own children , which needs a good deale of proofe afore it may be yeelded , in as much as the power of the one is plainly and plentifully taught in the scripture , as eph. 4. 6. col. 3. deut. 6. 7. deut. 21. and many other places . but i desire one cleere place of scripture , in all the book of god either old testament or new , to shew the like power in a congregationall church , over the members of other churches . againe , when a master of a family hath all his children taken from him by death , he hath then no children of his own to governe , but wants a congregationall church & is left alone in an iland , the presbytery of that congregation is left alone , but have still the members of that congregation whom they may and ought to guide and governe in the feare of god , which is another particular wherein the comparison failes . but though the similitude as mr. rutherford hath laid it down , doth not confirme his purpose , yet i conceive it may be ▪ so framed and applyed as that it may well serve for the weekning thereof , thus ; a master of a family having ( when that family is alone ) entire power to governe his family in the feare of god , when other families do arise that become neighbours neere adjoyning , he is not by this meanes deprived of the power which he had before , but still retaines the same entire and compleate as formerly it was : even so the presbytery of a congregationall church having ( when that congregation is alone , ) entire power of iurisdiction over its own members , is not when neighbour congregation do arise , deprived by this meanes of the power which it had before , but still retaines the same entire as formerly it was . againe , though when god takes away a mans children by death , he is no longer bound to educate and governe those children in the feare of god , yet as long as his children live with him in his family , it is not the sitting down of other families neere by him that can take away this power from him , or discharge him of this duty : even so , though when members of a congregation be taken away by death or otherwise , the congregation or its presbytery doth no longer stand charged or bound with the oversight and government of such members yet as long as they live in the congregation , it is not the arising of other congregations neere to them that can free them from the power wherewith they were invested , nor from the duty wherewith they were formerly charged towards such members , thus the comparison runs even , and we see our brothers cause is not a little disadvantaged thereby . but as he hath laid it down , it doth so apparantly faile that i do not perceive how it can afford him any helpe at all . this argument supposeth that the congregation hath no power of excommunication at all , either compleat or incompleate , as the midwife hath no power to baptize , either compleate or incompleate . answ . suppose a congregation have an incompleate power when they have neighbours , how shall it appeare that when they are alone their power is now compleat ? or how will it be avoided but by the like reason , one elder alone may excommunicate in case there be no other elders to joyne with him ? for plain it is , that one elder when their is a full presbytery or classis hath an incompleate power , though not a compleat . and yet i hope this incompleat power in one elder when there are other elders joyned with him , will not warrant him to exercise a power compleat when he is alone , because such a power must be exercised by a church , with one elder alone cannot be . and if one elder having an incompleat power when he is joyned with others , may not exercise a compleat power when he is alone , how will the incompleat power of a congregation when they have neighbours ( suppose that in such case their power were indeed incompleate ) how will this i say warr●nt that congregation when they are alone to exercise a compleat power ? for ought i see , the compleat power of the congregation is no more warranted upon this ground , then the like power of one elder upon the same ground , the cases being alike in both . neither doth a congregation transgresse any rule of christ at all when it exerciseth entire power of censures within it self , whereas there be no consociated ●hurches to share with it in that power . answ . this i grant is very true ; and i desire it may not be recalled , but may still stand as here it is expresly given to us ; and then i desire to know what rule of christ is transgressed , if an other congregation , i meane a congregation that hath neighbours , do exercise the like power . for my part i know no such rule , nor any good reason but if that the one congregation may so practise , the other congregation may do the like , and that the grounds ( at least some of them ) which will warrant the one , will also suffice to warrant the other . neverthelesse when any rule of christ shal be produced that doth restraine a congregation that hath neighbours of this entire power , which is so freely and plainly granted to the congregation that is alone , i shall then grant that the former must have lesse liberty to exercise this power , then is here granted to the latter . in the meane time , that which here is yeelded to the one doth amongst other things induce me to thinke that the same ought to be granted to the other , and so that entirenesse of power is in them both . a congregation ( viz. which is alone ) is capable of entire jurisdiction because it is a church . answ . how will it then be avoided but a congregation which hath neighbours , or a congregation which was alone and now hath neighbours added to it , how will it be avoided i say , but such a congregation as this is also capable of entire iurisdiction ? for can it be denyed but such a congregation is a church , as well as the other ? sure if mr. rutherford his doctrine elsewhere delivered do stand good , this cannot be denyed at all . for in his page 301 he saith , that is a church , and hath the essence of a church , to which agree the essentiall notes of a visible church , and preaching of the word and administration of the sacraments saith he are essentiall notes of a visible church . which if it bee so , then a congregation that hath neighbours is a visible church , and hath the essence of a church , because preaching of the word and administration of the sacraments are cleerely found in such a congregation . and if such a congregation be a church , then by his own doctrine in this place which we have in hand , such a congregation is capable of entire iurisdiction . for thus i argue from his own words every congregation which is a church is capable of entire iurisdiction . but a congregation which hath neighbours is a church . therefore a congregation which hath neighbours is capable of entire iurisdiction . the conclusion is that which we stand for , and it makes directly against our brother , and yet i see not how he can avoyd it , because both the premises are his own . for the proposition is plaine from the words we have in hand , v●z . a congregation is capable of entire jurisdiction because it is a church . now if this be the reason why it is capable thereof , then looke to what congregation this reason doth agree , every such congregation must be so capable . for our author well knoweth that à quatenus ad omnia consequentia . and for the assumption , the same is confirmed by his words , page 302 , where he makes that to be a church , and to have the essence of a church , to which the preaching of the word , and administration of the sacraments do agree . and these agreeing to a congregation that hath neighbours , it followeth that a congregation that hath neighbours is a church . vnlesse hee will deny to a congregation that hath neighbours power of preaching the word and administring the sacraments ( which i am perswaded he will not deny at all ) it will unavoidably follow from his own ground that such a congregation is a visible church . and if such a congregation be a visible church , then by his own ground also , such a congregation must be capable of entire iurisdiction : which conclusion if it bee granted we desire no more , for it is the thing that we hold . a woman in no case is capable of administring baptisme or the lords supper , except she were extraordinarily and immediately inspired to bee a prophetesse , but for the exercise of entire power of jurisdiction by a congregation in a remote iland , i hope it hath no such need of immediate inspiration . answ . nor do wee thinke otherwise ; but ( that we may keepe to the points and bring up the dispute to the thing in questio ) if such a congregation having no such inspiration may notwithstanding lawfully exercise intire power of iurisdiction within themselves , and that upon this reason , because they now are alone , which if they had neighbours were not lawfull for them to do , then let it be well considered , whether by the like reason in the like extraordinary case , baptisme and the lords supper may not be administred the one of them by a woman , and both of them by such as are no ministers . for as in one case the plea , to make it lawfull is this , because such a congregation hath no neighbours , so in the other the plea is because the congregation hath no ministers , nor perhaps there are no men at hand . and if the one which at other times were unlawfull , yet in such an extraordinary exigence of gods providence may be lawfully done , though there be no immediate inspiration to warrant the same , why doth there need such immediate inspiration to warrant the other , the extraordinary exigence of gods providence being alike in both . i desire i may not be mistaken in this passage , for i doe not affirme ( nor ever did ) that the dispensation of discipline and of sacraments in the cases mentioned are both alike unlawfull , or else both alike lawfull . the answer will not witnesse that i have so affirmed , neither yet this present discourse t● much lesse do i hold that sacraments may be dispensed by women or by men that are not ministers . all that i have said in this matter is thus much , that it is good to take heed how farre we yeeld it lawfull in such extraordinary cases , as want of neighbours , to transgresse and violate ordinary rules , least some body do thence inferre that sacraments may be dispensed by women or men that are no ministers , in case that ministers or men be wanting . this i have said indeed , as being tender and afraid to open a dore too far for liberty of transgressing ordinary rules , and conceiving that keeping close to those rules is the safest way . if any man be more bold and dare open the dore further then i dare adventure to do , and thinke he can easily shut the same againe , to stop the inconveniencies and ill consequents which i feare may thence ensue . i shall leave him to his discretion , and the guidance of god therein , onely craving thus much for my selfe that no more may be imputed to me , nor reported of me in this or other matters , then indeed i have affirmed or expressed . concerning his second reason of the greater necessity of discipline then of sacraments , his words are these . there is no such morall necessity of sacraments as there is of the ministery of the word and consequently of the use of the keyes , where a scandalous person may infect the lords flock : for where vision ceaseth the people perish . but it is never said where baptisme ceaseth the people perish , pag. 455. answ . how shall we be sure that by vision , prov. 26. 18. is meant discipline ? yea discipline not in a large sense as comprehending generally all order and behaviour concerning a church and outward duties therein , but discipline strictly taken for administration of censures ( for of this is one question ) how i say shall wee be sure that by vision is meant this discipline ? the usuall expositers tremeli●● and junius , 〈…〉 , and others doe expound the same of the preaching and dispensing of the word , making no mention at all of discipline as meant thereby . and the 〈◊〉 branch of the verse , he ●hat keepeth the law is blessed , doth ●hew that by vision in the former branch is mean the law , or doctrine or word of god. and if the scripture do not s●y , where baptisme ceaseth the people perish , yet neither doth it say , where administrat●on of censures ceaseth the people perish ; and therefore no necessity of censures above sacraments can be concluded hence . vncalled ministers in case of necessity without ordination or calling from a presbytery may preach and take on them the holy ministery and exercise power of jurisdiction , because of the necessity of the soules of a congregation in a remote iland requireth so . answ if they may do these things without ordination ( as for my part i deny it not , so that the election or consent of the congregation be not wan●ing , for that i suppose might be a good part of an outward calling ) then i demand whether one minister alone may not thus do , i meane whether one alone may not in the case proposed take on him the holy ministery and preach the word as a minister . if many may do it , then i suppose there is no question but one may do it much rather . and if so , then i demand further whe●her such a single minister may not also administer the sacraments to such a congregation : i suppose it cannot be denyed , for if he lawfully take on him the ministery and preach as a minister , what should hinder , but he may also baptize , and minister the lords supper ? and if hee may thus doe , then i demand lastly , whether this single minister may also administer discipline and censures in that congregation . if he may , then either the power of those censures must be in himselfe alone , or in the congregation also , in himselfe alone it cannot be , because censures must bee dispensed by a church , and one man alone cannot bee a church , if it be in the congregation also , then here is a power of excommunication or other censures even in the people which is against our brothers judgement . if it be said that this single minister as long as he wan●s other ministers joyned with him may not administer censures or discipline , then it will follow that power of censures is not alwayes annexed to the ministery as an inseparable adjunct thereof , nor are censures to be preferred before sacraments as more necessary , as our brother would have it , for as much as here is a ministery and the administring of sacraments , the necessity of the soules of the congregation requiring so , and yet for all this not any power of censures at all . our brother therefore may make his choyce , whether hee will grant the power of the keyes of discipline to bee in the people , or whether he will say the necessity of the soules in a congregation doth require sacraments more then discipline ; for though these be both against himselfe , yet upon the ground which himselfe doth here lay , the one of the two is unavoidable . but i hope no necessity in any of the most extraordinary case requireth that a midwife may baptize , or that a private man remaining a private man may celebrate the lords supper to the church , without any calling from the church . answ . concerning the midwife i thinke the same that he doth . and concerning the private man , i also therein ●●curre that without calling from the church hee may not performe what here is spoken of . but here i would make this quare whether 〈◊〉 man that never was a minister may not as well in an extraordinary case performe 〈◊〉 act of administring of baptisme or the lords supper , without any calling from the 〈◊〉 bytery or the church unto whom the office of ministery , as take on him without any such calling the whole ministery , and so preach and exercise the power of iurisdiction as a minister for as for the one of these , our brother expresly grants a man m●y lawfully take it on him without any such calling , the necessity of the soules of a congregation in an iland requiring so ; and if this necessity will warrant the one which is the whole and so the greater , why will it not warrant the other which is but one act and so the lesser ? one would thinke one act of dispensing baptisme or the supper were a lesser matter then the whole ministery , and all the actions thereof . and marvell it is , that the necessity of the soules of a congregation should warrant this which is the greater , and yet the same necessity should not be sufficient warrant for the lesser , a mans calling being otherwise alike unto both , that is , having an outward calling to neither himself doth sometimes reason thus , if wee give to beleevers that are not in office one pastorall act , wee may with the like weight of reason give them all : peaceable plea , page 272. now if this reasoning be good from one act to all , why is no this as good , from all to any one or to some one ? and why may we not in like maner argue thus , if persons uncalled may without ordination or calling take on them the whole ministery , why may not persons uncalled without ordination or calling take on them to baptize or minister the supper ? not that i thinke such a practise to be lawfull , but only i intend to make quaere about the validity of our brothers kind of arguing . yea , it is elsewhere his arguing , that it persons not in office of ministery may execute censures and discipline , they may then administer the sacraments . for saith he , what hinders by this reason but they may also without ministers prea●h and administer the sacraments : peaceable plea , page 196. yea saith he , i s●e not but with a like warrant private men may administer the sacraments : vbi supra , page 196. this we see is his arguing elsewhere : and yet in the place we have in hand he grants that persons uncalled may in case of necessity without ordination or calling take on them the ministery in generall , and in particular may exerc●se the power of iurisdiction , and yet for all this he sayes , that no necessity will warrant a man to celebrate the lords supper without a calling from the church . which two sayings for ought i perceive do not agree . for in the one it is affirmed that if they may exercise discipline and censures , they may by the like reason administer sacraments : and the other saith they may exercise discipline and censures and yet may not administer sacraments ; and yet both the sayings are expressed by the same authors pen. chap. xi . whether the power of iurisdiction flowing immediately from the essence of a church doe not agree to a church that hath neighbours as well as to a church that hath none : and whether otherwise neighbouring churches bee not a losse . and whether pretence of male-administration be a sufficient reason for neighbouring churches to deprive a congregation of its power . the next place where i find mr. rutherford dealing with the answer , is in his page 455. where he brings in these words under mr. tompsons name and mine , viz. if the power of jurisdiction flow immediately and necessarily from the essence of a church , and a congregation be essentially a church , then this power agreeth to all churches whether consociated , or not consociated , and without respect of what neighbours they have , whether many or few , whether any or none . second , a congregation it selfe alone cannot have sole power of iurisdiction and then be deprived of it , when god sendeth neighbours , for then neighbouring churches which are given for help should be given for losse , the contrary whereof ames saith no. doe synods saith he , constitute a new forme of a chur●h . thus farre mr. rutherford who in his margent alledgeth mr. tompson and me , 16. pag. 4 , 5. answ . in one of these pages of the answer , viz. p. 5. there is nothing at all to be found that looks toward such a purpose as our brother hath in hand , and therefore this page should not have been here alledged . the words of dr. ames are more imperfectly cited by our brother , then they were alledged in the answer , for the answer alledgeth them thus out of medull . theol. lib. 1. chapter 3. sect 27. that the combination of churches into classes , and synods doth neither constitute a new forme of a church , nor ought by any meanes to take away or impayer that liberty and power which christ hath given to his churches , sith it serveth only for the directing and furthering of the same . wher●as our brother expresseth only those first words that synods do not constitute a new forme of a church , but all the rest wherein the chiefe strength of dr. ames his testimony doth lye , them he doth wholly omit and leave out . he also leaves out the assent which is given by mr. paget , to this testimony of dr. ames , which assent as it is expressed in his defence p. 107. in these words , this we do willingly grant , is also in the ●ame words alledged by the answer in p. 4. but this is wholly passed over by mr. rutherford in silence . now two such men as these being alledged in the answer , as plainly affirming that the combination of churches into classes and synods must neither tollere nor minuere , take away not impaire or diminish the liberty or power of churches , but only serve for the directing and furthering of the same , and the one of them being the chiefe patron of the power of classes and synods , it is some marvell to me that no word of answer is vouchsafed to them by mr. rutherford , but that their words are thus passed by with silence , and the name of one of them not so much as mentioned . how ever this is cleere , that he that gainsayes the answer in this passage , hath not only the answer , but also the reverend author here mentioned to be against him . but let us come to consider of mr. rutherford his answer which he subjoyneth in these words , viz. power of iurisdiction floweth from the essence of a congregation in an iland , ergo a totall and compleat power of iurisdiction floweth from the essence of a church or congregation consociated , it followeth no wayes . answ i desire the reason may be laid down according to our true meaning therein , and in its full strength ; and then the former part thereof must not only speak of power of iurisdiction flowing from the essence of a church that want neighbours , but of entire power , for thereof is the question ; and in the latter part the termes must no : be a church consociated but a church that hath neighbours ; now if entire power and iurisdiction do flow from the essence of a church , and therefore this essence of a church being found in a congregation that wants neighbours , this entirenesse of power mu●t thereupon be granted to such a congregation ; i then demand why the like entirenesse of power must not be granted as well to a congregation that hath neighbours , sith the essence of a church is found in this congregation , as well as in the other . for ought i see either the essence of a church must be denyed to a congregation that hath neighbours or else it will follow that entirenesse of power must be granted to such a congregation , risibility and power of reason flowing immediately and necessarily from the essence of a man , and power to defend it selfe and purge out excrements flowing in like sort from the essence of a humane body , and power to governe it self with family government flowing in like sort from the essence of a family ; therefore we must not grant these powers to be entire in such a man , such a body , or such a family as is alone , and deny the same to one that hath neighbours , but must grant them alike unto all , because this power flowes from their very essence , which is as truly found in such as have neighbours , as it is in those that are alone . and the like may be said in other cases . and why it should be otherwise in a congregationall church , that the power of the iurisdiction flowing from the essence of such a church should therefore be entire in such a congregation as is alone in an iland , and yet not entire in a congregation that hath neighbours , though this congregation hath the essence of a church as well as the other , why these congregations i say should thus greatly differ in their power , and yet be alike in their essence from whence their power doth flow , for my part i yet do not understand the reason . nor doth that satisfy which mr. rutherford here alledgeth , that one pastor in a congregation hath as a pastor power to rebuke sin and to administer the sacraments , and yet when three pastors are added to help him he hath not the sole power of rebuking sin , and the sole and entire power to administer the sacraments , but these three pastors have power with him : this i conceive doth not help the matter at all : for though it be true that these three pastors being added to the first have each of them the like power as the first had , yet the power of the first for the performance of these things mentioned , is as comple●t in him notwithstanding this addition , as it was before , and not any whit abated nor impayred thereby : and the reason is , because matters of order flowing from the essence of a pastor may bee sufficiently and compleatly performed by one pastor singly , which acts of iurisdiction cannot . mr. rutherford his own words in this case are these , viz. a single pastor may ministerially give out commandements in the authority of christ , but hee cannot himselfe censure or excommunicate the contraveners of those commandements : due right , page 387. and againe , page 387 , 388 it is proper is acts of iuris●iction ecclesiasticall that they cannot be exercised by one alone , but must be exercised by a society : but a pastor as a pastor himselfe alone without any collaterally joyned with him exerciseth his pastorall acts of preaching and administring the sacraments . now if a pastor as a pastor himself alone without any collatterally joyned with him , may thus exercise his pastorall acts , then indeed the accesse or addition of other pastors is not at all destructive of his pastorall power , but he still retaineth the same as compleat and perfect as before , because hee doth these acts as a pastor and remaineth a pastor still . but how this example and instance can any thing further mr. ruth●rford his purpose , i do not understand . for his intention is to make good that a congregation may have entire power when it is alone , a●d yet not so when other congregations do arise ; and for the consuming of this hee brings this instance and example from a pastor that hath a pastorall power afore other pastors are added ; who by the addition of others hath no lesse power then afore ; which example i conceive rather makes against him then for him . for saith he , page 456. their pastorall power added to him is cumulative and auxiliary , but not privative or destructive of his pastorall power , and therefore that the first pastor suffereth losse by the addition of these three to him , who , saith he , will say this ? answ . i know none that will say it ; but if their power be cumulative and auxiliary to his pastorall power , and no wayes privative or destructive thereof , then what power he had afore they were added , the same he hath still in as great measure as formerly , and so his pastorall acts are as perfect and valid as they were before . now let the same bee granted to a congregation that hath neighbour congregations added , and we have what we demand : and if this be not granted , then though the power of those other pastors be cumulative and auxiliary to the other pastor , yet the power of those other congregations seemes not so to the former congregation , but rather privative or destructive of its power , and then how can this example confirme our brothers purpose , or how can it be avoided but the example which he produceth doth make against himselfe ? sure if the power of these other pastors bee not destructive to the former pastors power , but auxiliary thereto , so that what power he had before , the same he retayneth still , and in the same measure , then it must bee so likew●se in a congregation when neighbour congregations are added , or else this example will not suit : but make the examples to agree and our cause is advantaged thereby . our brethren doe conceive the power of congregations in its kind and essence to be monarchicall , so as if any power from consociated congregations be added thereunto , the congregations power monarchicall is diminished and the essence of it changed . answ . the power of congregations we ●old to be ministeriall , as being delegated from christ iesus , and to be exercised according to his appointment ; and in him alone and in no other do we place this monarchicall power ; according to what the holy ghost witnesseth , that there are differences of administrations but the same lord , 1 cor. 12. 5. and though our brother is pleased to put this upon us , that we conceive the power of congregations to bee monarchicall , yet in truth the same is farre from us : nor do i thinke that so much as one of us can be named , that at any time hath so spoken : nor doth such a thing follow from any thing delivered by us concerning the power of congregations . for as for that which here he intimateth and elsewhere expresseth more plainly , so that the power of iurisdiction in congregations is closely made void or destroyed by that power which some ascribe unto classes , if this be holden by us , doth it thence follow that we hold the power of congregations to be monarchical●● it followes not at all . for then by the like reason i could prove that himselfe d●th hold a power monarchicall in the universall or provinciall churches : for he expresly affirmeth , page 337. that the popes power destroyeth the power of the church universall , and the prelates power destroyeth the power of the church whereof hee is pretended pastor . and yet i hope he doth not hold a monarchicall power in the one chu●ch nor in the other , nor in any church or churches but in christ alone ; nor can the same bee truly concluded upon that which hee affirmeth of destroying the power of churches by the power of the pope and prelate . and if not , how then can any man conclude against us that we hold a monarchicall power in congregations , though wee should hold that the power of congregations is destroyed or diminished by that power which some would give unto classes● if our pr●mises will warrant him to fasten such a tenent upon us , his own will give a warrant for the like against himselfe . and if the ground be insufficient to beare such a conclusion against him , as i confesse it is , i know no sufficient ground why the same should be imputed unto us . compleat and en●ire power to rule both the congrega●ion and members of consociated churches in so farre as they do keep communion with that congregation , and may either edifie or scandalize them , floweth not immeaiately and ●ecessarily from the essence of every congregation even in remote ilands not consociated with others , that we never said . answer . indeed it were an absurd and grosse saying for any man to say , that a congregation in a remote iland not consociated with others should have power , yea compleat and entire power to rule the congregation and members of churches consociated and that this should flow immediately and necessarily from the essence of such a congregation . but there is no need that our brother should cleere himselfe from this saying , for i know none that imputes it to him . neverthelesse , the saying here ●●joyned cannot be denyed , for they are his own verb●ti●● . first , the ordinary power of iurisdiction because of neerest vicinity and contiguity of members is given by iesus christ to one congregation in an isle , because that church is a church properly so called : it is a little city , and a little kingdome of iesus christ , having within it selfe power of the ●ord and sacraments and that is a church and hath the essence of a church to which agree the essentiall notes of a church : now preaching of the word and administration of the sacraments are essentiall notes of a visible church : page 302. second , a congregation is a church wanting nothing of the being and essence of a church , page 302. third , where consociation is not , ordination and excommunication may be done by one single congregation , page 338. fourth , that in such cases ( viz. when a church is in an iland it selfe alone ) they have the word preached and entire power of discipline whole and entire within themselves to excommunicate scandalous persons , is not extraordinary , page 454. fift , it floweth co●naturally from a church to which agreeth the essence of a church , to exercise iurisdiction over all its owne members , ibid. sixt , neither doth a congregation transgresse any rules of christ at all , when it exerciseth entire power of censures within it selfe , whereas there be no consociated churches to share with it in that power , ibid. seaventh , a congregation is capable of entire iurisdiction , because it is a church , ibid. such sayings as these himselfe hath delivered in the pages and places here cited , and in the words and termes here expressed ; and therefore from these he cannot cleere himselfe and if from these the entirenesse of iurisdiction in a church that hath neighbours may justly be deduced , as i conceive it may , and have above manifested , it will then but little availe him to wash his hands from the stayne of that other absurd saying afore mentioned , which no man that i know do charge him withall . for as long as these other sayings do stand unrecalled , so long wee have cleere grounds from himselfe and his own words , for entirenesse of iurisdiction in every congregationall church , and so for the weakening of his cause , and for the strengthening of our own . a power to governe well and according to the rule of the word added to an other power to governe well and according to the word , is an auxiliary power and no way destructive to that power to which it is added . indeed a power to governe well added to a power of male-administration in a congregation is destructive of that power , and reason it should bee so , because christ never gave any such power of male-administration to a congregation . answ . here our brother speakes of two cases , first of a power of governing well added to a power of governing well . second , of a power of governing well added to a power of governing ill ; but besides these , there is a third case which had need to bee considered also , viz. a power of governing ill added to a power of governing well , which may be the case when the power of classis is added to a congregation ; for it is not impossible but the congregation may be in the right and the classis in the wrong . now what shall be said or done in this ●ase ? shall the congregation now have the free exercise of its power , or shall it not ? to say yea , would satisfie the minds of many , if the congregation themselves may be judge that they are in the right , or if it were determined who must judge thereof . and to say no , and that the power must still be in this erring classis , were to subject righteousnesse to wickednesse , and truth to falshood , and i conceive our brother will not maintain such power in a compound or presbytery or classis . for in page 335. speaking of this very case , and the greater presbytery is wrong in their voicing , and the elders of a congregationall church are right , and have the best in judging of a case before them , he plainly affirmeth , that the power which in this case the presbytery exerciseth is not of christ , and that de jure the power of the greater presbytery in this case ought to be swallowed up of the voices of the elders of a congregation , though they be fewer in number . now if this be so , then the thing in question is still as uncertain as before , and still wee are to seeke where the power of censures or iurisdiction doth finally reside . for in the one place our brother tels us , christ never gave power of male-administration to a congregation , and in the other he tels us the like of a classis or great presbytery , and that christ hath given no power to any church to erre . by which sayings we are left at great uncertainty : for still the question will be whether the congregation doth erre or no , and so whether the classis do erre or no , and unlesse it be determined who must judge of this , we are still but where wee were , and no neerer an issue then before . this indeed is most true and must be so acknowledged , that though the lord almighty have given a power unto societies , whether they bee families , common-wealths , or churches , and have made sundry of them subordinate to none other the like societies in the exercise of their power , but to have supremacy of power within themselves , yet he hath also given them just and holy rules in his word for the directing of them in the use of this power , from which rules it is not lawfull for them to swerve or go astray ; but if they do , it will be sin unto them , and he will surely require it of them : but now between these two the power it selfe and the abuse or right use of the power , we must carefully distinguish , for though abuse of their power bee not given of god , from whom comes nothing but good , yet the power it selfe being good is given of him , and is so to be acknowledged . and though abuse of their power do justly deserve at his hands that they should be deprived of the power it selfe , ye● god doth not alwayes forthwith deale with men according to their deserts herein , but many times continues still to them their power , though they have abused the same , much lesse doth he allow others to deprive them of this power because of every abuse thero● : witnesse among others the examples of the pagan princes in the apostles times , who through their ignorance , infidelity , pride and other sins , could not but in great measure abuse their authority , and yet the holy ghost commands the christians to be subject and obedient thereunto , rom. 13. 1 , 2. &c. t it 3. 1. not to obey them indeed , in doing evill at their commands , for in such case they must obey god rather then man , as act 5. 29. yet still they must be subject to the powers either actively or pa●●ively , even then when the powers were sinfully abused . even so , if a family shall abuse their power , it doth not follow that other families , may lawfully for this cause take away their power from them : or if a corporation shall so offend , it will not follow that other corporations may deprive them of their power . and if it be so in commonwealths , and families , why may wee not say the same of churches ? or how will it follow , if a church shall abuse their power , that other churches in such eases may take away the power from such a church ? for ought i see , this will not follow at all , no more then the other . for though christ have not given to any church a power of male administration as mr. rutherford speaks , yet hath he given to every church a power of administration , which if they manage not aright but do abuse the same , the lord iesus will be displeased with them for this abuse , and other churches may and ought to advise them and admonish them and testifie against them for the same ; but for the power it selfe , as christ himselfe doth not forthwith deprive them thereof , so much lesse may other churches take it from them , for who gave them this authority ? per in parem non habet potestatem : and churches are all of equall authority , and not one superior or inferior to another , as therefore when children or servants in a family are not governed as they ought to be , yet neighbour families have not warrant because of this male administration to invade the rights and destroy the power of such a family , even so it is in this case of churches ▪ this male-administration in a church is not forthwith a sufficient warrant for neighbour churches to invade the rights of such a church , and to take away its power from it . especially if we do consider that this male-administration in a congregation may possibly be but pretended and not reall , and that the administration of the classes may paradventure be really such ; in which case mr. rutherford saith the power of the classis is not of christ , but their voices ought de jure to be swallowed up by the congregation and the elders thereof . this argument therefore from male-administration of the power of a congregation , which mr rutherford saith , it is reason should be destroyed by another power added to it , meaning the power of a classis is of no sufficient force to take away the power of a congregation at all , not to establish the power of the classis over the same , being as justly applyable against the classis it selfe : therefore for ought that doth yet appeare , supreame ministeriall church power which i conceive must needs be somewhere , may as well be in the congregation as in the classis , and can neither by this argument of male-administration nor by any other that we have yet seene , bee placed in the classis any more then in the congregation . chap. xii . whether it be against the light of nature that the adverse party be judge ; and whether mr. rutherford can safely say that none of them do so teach , and whether this saying that parties may not be judges do make against entirenesse of power in a congation , any more then in a generall or nationall councell . the next place where mr. rutherford deales with the answer , is in his p. 456. where alledging mr. tompson and me , page 5. he hath these words as ours , viz. if it be against the light of nature that the adverse party be the sole iudge , which must be if the sole power of iurisdiction be in the congregation ( as wee grant in an extraordinary case and the congregation is in an iland it selfe alone ) and so it shall be lawfull for a single congregation to do that which is against all equity , and the very light of nature , it must then follow , that it is not against the light of nature that a congregation though consociated with other congregations have entire jurisdiction within it selfe . answ . our words in the page alledged are more prospicuous and cleere , then these which are here set down for ours : neither do wee make any mention of a congregation in an iland , nor yet of a congregation consociated with other churches , least of all do we say ( or report others to say ) that it is lawfull for a single congregation to do that which is against all equity and the very light of nature ; none of these things are ours . and therefore , that our true meaning may plainely appeare as it is , i will transcribe a few of our words , which are these , viz. sure we cannot thinke that there can be such a case imagined , wherein you would grant it lawfull for a single congregation to do that which is against all equity and the very light of nature , and yet you grant that the case may be such that a single congregation may have entirenesse of jurisdiction within it selfe ; which seemes to us plainly to prove that for a congregation to bee so independent as to be the finall judge of offences within it selfe , is not against all equity nor against the light of nature , as is intimated by you . these are our words , much differing from those which mr. rutherford sets down as ours , which i thought meet to relate out of the answer , that our meaning might appeare as it is , and no otherwise . and now let us heare what our brother subjoyneth for answer . none of us , saith he , do teach that it is against the light of nature that the adverse party be the iudge : it might fall out in a generall councell lawfully convened from which their is no provocation : yea and in a nationall councell ( for all councels may erre ) the adverse party may judge ; as it was a lawfull councell according to a church constitution that condemned christ of blasphemy and they were also his enemies . answ . and may it not also fall out in a provinc●all synod , and in a classis or presbtytery of many churches ? i suppose it cannot be denyed , but the iudges in all these may be the adverse parties ; and so if the adverse party may not be iudge , then neither generall nor nationall councels , nor provinciall synods , nor classes , nor presbyteries may be iudges ; because there is none of these but possibly they may be parties . and so this argument , parties may not be iudges , doth make no more against the congregations power of judging , then against all ecclesiasticall assemblies whatsoever . vnlesse therefore men would overthrow the power of all ecclesiasticall iudicatories whatsoever without exception of any , they can have no help from this argument to overthrow the power of iurisdiction in congregations . not to insist upon that which might also be truly alledged , that the objection hath the like force , ( if any at all ) against civill iudicatories . but is it so indeed as our brother affirmeth , that none of them do teach that it is against the light of nature that the adverse party be the judge ? i thinke he should not thus have spoken , for i am much mistaken if the contrary hereunto be not certainly true . for first of all , i alledge the words of reverend mr , herle , in his book of independency page 5. alledged in the answer : page 6 , the very pag. which here mr rutherford is dealing against . in which place of mr. herle there are these words , viz. that there ought to be graduall judicatories , wherein the agrieved party may appeale from the lesser to the higher , that against the very light of nature the adverse party be not the sole iudge and party too in the cause , there can be no ceremony or type in this , next of all i alledge the words of the same reverend author in his page 10 ▪ ( which is also alledged in the forementioned place of the answer ) where the words are these , what if a brother offend not a particular brother , but the whole congregation ? what if ten brethren offend the whole or part ? shall we thinke the offence fals not within our saviours remed or complaint or appeale here ? that the offended party be not against all equity the sole and finall judge of the offence . in which places wee see it is plaine , yet this reverend author counts it against the very light of nature ; that the adverse party should bee iudge and party too in the cause , and that it is against all equity that the party offended should bee sole and finall iudge of the offence . and therefore it is marvellous that mr. rutherford should say that none of them do so teach : yea , it is the more marvellous inasmuch as both these places of mr. herle are expresly mentioned in that very page of the answer which here mr. rutherford is disputing against . and therefore it he had not remembred that himselfe had read the same in mr herle , as like enough he had , yet finding the same alledged by us in that scripture of ou●s , it is marvell hee would not turne to the places alledged to search and see whether the thing were so or no , afore he had denyed the same . whereas on the contrary , whether he searched or searched not , this we see that he roundly affirmes , that none of them do so teach ; to which saying i know not how to assent , our eyes having so plainly seene and read the direct contrary , yea and further , it is yet more marvellous that mr. rutherford should thus write , considering not only what hath been already said , but also what himselfe hath written elsewhere : i will mention a few of his own sayings , and then himselfe shall be ●udge , whether the thing we have now in hand was by him advise●ly and well spoken . in his pe●ceable plea , page 218 he hath these words , when the graecian church offendeth the hebrew church , the hebrew church cannot complaine to the graecian church , for the law forbiddeth the party to bee judge . and what law hee meanes may be perceived by his words in page 208. of the same treatise , where he saith , if one man be wronged and see truth suffer by partiality , the law of nature will warrant him to appeale to an assembly , where there is more light and greater authority , as the weaker may fly to the stronger . now let himselfe be judge whether in these testimonies compared , he do not teach , that it is against the law of nature that parties should be iudge● , and that therefore men may appeale from them . againe , those words page 27 of the same book are so plaine as that nothing can be more , these words saith he what soever yee bind on earth , &c. must be meant only of the apostles , and of the church , verse 18. yea , and it must exclude peter and his offending brother , suppose they were both beleevers ; because parties by the law of nature and nations cannot be iudges . las●ly , those words are expresse in his due right of presbytery , in his see ●nd p. 338 , 339. where hee writes thus , if according to the law of nature and nations , no man can be iudge in his own cause , then are appeales from the eldership of one congregation , when they are a party to the caused person , naturall — but the former is reason , nature , law of nations . ergo so is the latter . in the assumption of which sylogisme he plainly affirmes that it is reason , nature , and the law of nations , that no man may be judge in his own cause , and by all this i suppose t● is manifest that the thing which he saith none of them do teach is expresly and plainly taught by some of them , and among others even by himselfe , who therefore ought not to have denyed the same , nor can bee cleered from much forgetfulnesse in so doing . and if so great an oversight be found in him , i hope himself may thereby be intreated to be tender of agravating matters against us or others , at leastwise not so farre to agravate them , as to impute unto us matters which we do not hold : for a mans owne infirmities should make him more equitable and favourable towards others . and christian readers may be warned hereby not hastily to receive all that mr. rutherford hath written , afore they have duly examined and tryed the same , whether the things bee so or not , for wee see through forgetfulnesse or otherwise hee may greatly mistake himselfe , and misse of the truth , and give forth such sayings and expressions for truth , as are in no sort to be maintained but recalled , though neverthelesse he is otherwise a man of great worth , and so ever to be acknowledged . we teach that it is not congruous to the wisdome of christ , nor to the light of nature , that christ should have appointed all the ordinary church courts , so many thousand congregations , who may rather crie then extraordinary and higher synods to bee the onely ordinary iudges in their own cause . answ . these qualifications and limitations of the matter of parties being iudges are such as to my remembrance i never heard given afore now . now indeed it is said 1. that all congregations being so many thousand . 2. may not be the only ordinary iudges in their own cause , but it would bee against the wisdome of christ and light of nature if it should so be ; yet formerly it was delivered absolutely and simply , that it is against the light of nature for parties to be iudges , without any such modifications and qualifications as now mr. rutherf . gives to help the matter withall . neverthelesse by qualifying the thing in this sort , it seemes thereby to bee still granted that though so many thousand congregations may not ordinarily be iudge in their own cause , but the light of nature will be against it , yet for some congregations and at some times the thing may be allowed well enough : else why is the thing denyed only to so many congregations , and ordinarily , if it be not thereby implyed that some congregations and at some times may thus practise ? now hereupon the question groweth , whether some at some times may bee allowed to do contrary to the light of nature , though all may not : or whether the light of nature bee changed when there comes to be many congregations , and be not the same that it was before , when there was no more congregations but one , whether i say some new light of nature do arise with the rise of new congregations , so that when they are many it would be against this light for them thus to bee iudges , though it was not so when there was but one : or whether we must say the light of nature remaining in the same , one congregation remaining alone may be allowed to do contrary thereto , but many may not . it seemes to be inconvenient and ha●d to affirme either of these ; and yet the one or the other seemes unavoidable by this that mr. rutherford here teacheth . for let it be granted that a congregation that is alone , yea a generall councell , yea a nationall councell also may be iudges in their own cause , and that no light of nature is against the same , and yet many congregations may not be so , but then the light of nature will be against it , let these things i say be granted , which are all of them granted and taught by mr. rutherford , and then i desire to know how the inconveniences mentioned can be avoided ; i meane how it can be avoided , but either some men or church assemblies may lawfully do that which is against the very light of nature , or else that the light of nature is changed when many congregations do arise , from that which it was when there was but one . yea the difficulty and intrica●y in this way is yet more , if it be well considered . for first of all when a congregation is alone , it is yeelded that it is not against natures light for them to bee iudges in their own cause . secondly , when many congregations do arise , now it is said it is against such light , that they should so be iudges : yet thirdly , when these congregations do gather into a nationall councell , then this light of nature will allow them to be iudges , as in the first case of a single congregation that is alone : and the same is also said of the generall councell : so that here is strange varying and changing of the light of nature , and of that which is against it , lawfull or unlawfull thereby . and when good reason and ground is given for the cleering of these things , we shall then consider further thereof , and see more then yet we do . in the meane time taking what is granted , that no light of nature forbids a congregation when it is alone , to have entirenesse of iurisdiction within it selfe , nor forbids the same to the generall or nationall councels , i thinke it may thence be inferred , that the like must be allowed to congregationall churches that have neighbours , and that entirenesse of iurisdiction in these is no more against the light of nature , then in the other . for to say that one congregation may have this entirenesse of iurisdiction and the light of nature allowe● it , and others may not but the light of nature forbids it ; yea to say first the light of nature allowes it , and then it forbids it , and then it allowes it againe , these are such abstruse and intricate things , yea so apparantly incongruous and inconsistent , that it passeth my understanding to perceive how they can stand together . chap. xiii . whether the churches at thessalonica and ierusalem , were each of them more then one congregation ; and of mr. baynes his iudgement therein . of the assembly mentioned luke 12. and whether our saviour did there speake to his disciples onely , or to all the people also . it is a wonder to me saith our author page 457. that thessalonica was but one congregation — yet the apostle ascribeth to them that which is a note to worthy baynes of the unmerous multitude of the church of jerusalem , from whence went the word of ged to all the world. 1 thes . 1. 8. for from you sounded out the word of the lord not onely in macedonia , and achaia , but in every place your faith to god-ward is spread abroad . answ . all this doth not hinder but thessalonica might be one congregation , though perhaps a great one . for that the word did sound out from them to others , and their faith to godward was spread abroad , what is there in all this to prove they were many congregations in one church ? and for mr. baynes whom our author worthily counts a worthy man , there is nothing in him that will serve mr. rutherford his purpose , but much that makes for the contrary . for it is well known in his diocesans triall he maintaines at large , that churches by the appointment of chr●st are congregationall , and denyes that one congregation may be one church : and in the particular instances of the church , at jerusalem , at co●i●th , at ephesus , at antioch and others , he holds the very same that we do , and the direct contrary to that which mr. rutherford stands for . and therefore whereas he wonders that thessalonica should bee one congregation , considering what the apostle saith of them , and what mr. baynes hath said of jerusalem , i may more justly wonder that he should once mention mr. baynes in this cause . for if ever there was man in this world that deny●d many congregations to be one church , and allowed onely such churches to be instituted of christ as may meete ordinarily in one congregation , this mr. baynes was one of them ; and therefore a wonder it is to me that mr. rutherford should thinke to have help from him in this question . but let us consider what it is that mr baynes doth say of the church at ierusalem : why , this which the apostle affirmeth of the thessalonians mr. baynes doth make a note of the numerous multitude of the church at ierusalem . but doth hee make it a note of many congregations in one church at ierusalem ? if he do , this were something to the purpose , i grant . but i hope mr. rutherford will not so report of mr. baynes ; for it is plaine mr. bayne● doth not so speake , but expresly saith the direct contrary ; and therefore what ever numerous multitude might be in that church , and what ever might be a note of such multitude , except mr. baynes had said that the multitude was such as made many congregations and yet all but one church ( which he never said but the contrary ) there is no help to be had from mr. baynes in this businesse . for who knoweth not that there might be a numerous multitude , and yet but one congregation ? sure in mr. baynes his judgement it might be so , and therefore though hee grant a numerous multitude in this church at jerusalem , yet mr. rutherford purpose for many congregations in thessal●nica and yet all but one church , is not gained , nor at all holpen thereby . which will better appeare if mr. baynes his argumentation in the place which i conceive mr. rutherford aymes at , be considered in page 3. of his diocesans tryall , he propounds an argument of theirs who would have many congregations to be one church , taken from the example of the ancient churches of rome and alexandria , laid down in these words : if the multitude of christians did in ierusalem so increase within a little time , that they exceeded the proportion of one congregation , how much more likely is it that christians in rome and alexandria did so increase in 200 yeares , that they could not keepe in one particular assembly : but the first is true , ergo also the latter . now when he cames to answer this argument , pag. 18 , 19. what doth he then say . first of all he saith , the proposition is not of necessary consequence , for there were saith he very extraordinary reasons of that which was effected in ierusalem : and so he proceeds to mention 5 , or 6. reasons in particular , of which one is this which it may be mr. rutherford hath an eye unto , that the state of this church was such as that it was to send out light to all others , a common aursery to the world. and therefore if the thing were granted that in jerusalem there was a numerous multitude , yea such a multitude as could not be contained in one congregation , yet saith he , it doth not follow from this particular to the so great increasing of these churches , to wit , of rome and alexandria in tract of time . and even so may i say , it doth not follow to the so great increasing of the church of the thessalonians , there being such extraordinary reasons for that which was effected in ierusalem , as neither rome nor alexandria , nor yet thessalonica could alledge the same . and this is his answer to the proposition . but for the assumption , where mr. rutherford his help must chiefly lye , to wit , that the multitude of christians in ierusalem did exceed the proportion of one congregation , this mr. baynes doth expresly deny : not to mention , saith he , that we do deny the assumption . therefore , the proposition being by mr. baynes not yeelded , and the assumption expresly denyed , i see not how master rutherford can have any help to his cause from either of both . he denyes not , he saith , what mr. tompson and i do say , that 5000 may meet to hear the word , many thousands were gathered together , luke 12 to heare christ . answ . if this be not denyed , then suppose there were 5000 or more in the church at ierusalem , it doth not follow therefore that that church was many congregations , and so our purpose is gained . but we , he saith , leave out the inconveniences of thronging so all at once , for they trod one upon another . second , christ preached not to all those thousands at once , for it is expresly said verse 1. hee began to say to his disciples ; so , christ refusing to preach to such a disorderly confluence of people , who could not heare , and his doctrine being all for his disciples , the very sermon being preached to his disciples onely — evidenceth to me that christ condemneth a numerous multitude to heare at once . answ . the question is not about the conveniency or inconveniency of such excessively great assemblies ; but whether there be an impossibility in nature , and reason , that so many as are said to bee in the church at ierusalem should assemble and come together in one congregation ; for this is sometimes said for the proving of sundry congregations in that one church . now if this be not impossible , then the plurality of congregations in that one church cannot bee concluded by those great multitudes that were therein . and that it is not impossible for such great multitudes to come together in one congregation , the scripture alledged luke 12 , doth witnesse . if they trod one upon another , that might argue the assembly was very great , and that they were very desirous to bee neere unto our saviour for their better hearing , but doth not at all prove that such multitudes are so great as that they cannot possibly be spoke unto and heare in one congregation . and therefore , whereas our brother saith , christ preached not to all those thousands at once , and that he refused to preach to such a disorderly confluence of people , with favour of so worthy a man , i thinke the truth is otherwise . for though he began to speak to his disciples , verse 1. and exhorted them against worldly carefulnesse , verse 22. yet others who were not disciples were present , and did also heare his sermon : witnesse that in verse 13. where it is said that one of the company ( interrupting our saviour as it seemes ) demands of him that hee would speake to his brother about dividing the inheritance ; to whom our saviour makes answer , verse 14. which plainly ●hewes that all the p●esent company were not disciples . yea whereas it is said , that hereupon our saviour spake to them of bewaring and taking heed of coveteousnesse , verse 15. and sp●ke a parable to them of a certain rich man , verse 16. and after this said to his disciples , verse 22. take ●o thought for your life what you shall eate , &c. it appeareth hereby that these persons spoken to afterward verse 15 , 16 , &c. were not the disciples , who were spoken to afterward , verse 22. but were some other people besides . and what can be more plaine then that in verse 54. where it is expresly said , that christ spake unto the people , rebuking them for their hypocrisie , that could discerne the face of the skye , and of the earth , but could not discerne that time ? and he said also to the people , saith the text ; doth it not plainly appeare hereby that as myriads of people were gathered together , ver . 1 so our saviour spake the word unto those people ? i suppose the thing is manifest , and that therefore our brothers words cannot stand , when he saith , that christ preached not to that confluence of people , but refused so to do , his doctrine being all for his disciples , for we see the holy ghost witnesseth that hee spake not onely to his disciples , but to the people also : chemniti●s hath these words , neg●ri non potest ●n hac satis prolixi concione , &c. it cannot bee denyed that christ in this long sermon of his , directed his speech first to his disciples , second to his friends , third to one of the company . fourth to peter demanding a question . fift to all the multitude , and it seemes the ev●ngelist was willing as it were to reckon up these severall parts or members of the sermon , harmon . chap. 110. and the refuter of dr. downams sermon saith , the mention of many thousands in jerusalem doth not make the number such as by no meanes could meete together in the publike worship of god , seeing it is apparent , luke 12. 1. that the people which assembled unto christ and partake his ' doctrine were also many myriads : and albeit he began at the first to speake to his disciples verse 1. yet afterward he spake to all the people assembled , ver . 13. 15. 54. reply p. 2. p. 90. wherefore though our brother say christ spake not to these multitudes of people but to his disciples onely , yet sith wee have the ●ext it selfe , and the judgement of two divines of chiefe note , expresly witnessing the contrary , therefore we cannot assent to him herein . whereas chrysostome saith 5000 did heare his voyce at once in one congregation by meanes of scaffolds and galleries , and mr. mather is willing to yeeld 8120 were all assembled in one place to heare the word , and that all the multitude of converts at ierusalem were together in solomons porch acts 5 12. i grant 3000 could heare at once , but alas &c page 458. answ . if chrysostomes testimony be of any weight , or mr. baynes his testimony by whom chrysostome is alledged diocesans triall , page 16. then a must be granted that not only 3000 , but a greater number , even 50●0 at least may heare the word at once . and if so , then 5000 members in the church at ierusalem will not prove plurality of congregations in one church , forasmuch as here are 5000 people and yet no more congregations but one . but alas this is a great uncertainty for independant congregations , but this is to be proved , first that 8000 ( mr. mather hath not added many other multitudes mentioned , acts 5. 14. & 6. 17. ) did meete dayly in the temple . second , dayly or ordinarily from house to house . third , to celebrate the lords supper dayly in the temple and in every private house , and there were need of many scaffolds and galleries , to sit at one table . fourth , to make one judicature , &c. answ . he that shall look upon the answer page 34 will plainely see that i have here spoken to both those places of acts 5. 14. & 6 1. shewing that neither of them do prove a plurality of congregations in this church at ierusalem , but rather the contrary . and therefore this parenthesis which doth intimate that i have omitted to speake to these places , must not be assented to , but denyed . but why must these foure particulars be proved ? i suppose he meanes because of that which is said act. 2 46. they continued dayly with one accord in the temple , &c. but this doth not cleere it , that these foure particulars must needs be proved , and the reason is ; first , because iudicature which is one of the particulars , is not mentioned at all in that scripture ; nor is it said by us , that a dayly exercise thereof is necessary in every church or in any . second , the lord supper , which is another of the particulars , is not mentioned at all in that text , at leastwise not in those words or termes which mr. rutherford sets down ; much lesse is it said as he expresseth it , that they did dayly celebrate the same both in the temple and in every private house : nor can the same for ought i know be proved by this or by any other scripture , nor was such a thing ever affirmed by us , so farre as i know . i suppose if they had celebrated it in the temple alone , or in some private house or houses alone , that might have been sufficient , without any necessity of celebrating the same in both places upon one day , both in the temple and in the houses too . nay it is a question whether the lords supper bee at all intended in this place ; though i doubt not but they observed that ordinance , and verse 42. may possibly teach so much . but for the verse we are speaking of , viz , verse 46 ▪ there is no necessity that the breaking of bread there spoken of , must needs be meant of that ordinance . sure he was a judicious expositor who understands it otherwise , quod hic fractionem panis &c. that is , whereas some expound breaking of bread in this place of the lords supper , it seems to me to be farre from lukes intention : calvin in act. 2. 46. so then , of mr rutherfords foure particulars which he saith we must prove , there is not past the halfe of them that needs to be proved at all , the two last being already removed . and for a third which is of breaking of bread dayly and ordinarily from house to house , understand this breaking of bread as calvin doth , of their civill repast , and then it hurts not our cause at all , though it be yeelded that they did dayly meet for such purpose in severall companies , in their private houses ; for this they might do and bee no more but one congregation . there remaines therefore onely one that needs to be proved , namely the first , that they did dayly meete in the temple ; and this may bee proved with case , because the plain words of the text do affirme it , they continued dayly with one accord in the temple ; so that yet we have found nothing that proves ierusalem to be many congregations in one church . nay i conceive , that one of these foure particulars , viz. the first , of their dayly meeting in the temple , doth apparently shew that how great soever the number was , yet it was not exceeding the proportion of one congregation , which might come together in one place ; for the temple was but one in all the city , i meane there was but onely one individuall temple , and not many temples , which if there had been then our brethren might possibly have said , that they met distributively in sundry lesser companies , but were to many too meete all in one congregation ; for so they were wont to expound sundry other phrases used by the holy ghost , to declare their comming together . true say they , they come together , but how ? not collectively all of them together in one place , they were too many for that ; but they came together distributively , some of them in one place , and some in another , and so they think they have answered sufficiently . but now to this of their meeting together in the temple , they cannot answer so ; for then there should have been sundry temples , in which they might have met , distributed into sundry companies ; but there being no more temples but one , and the text affirming plainly that they all met with one accord , in the temple , it must needs be , that they met collectively , all of them together in one and the same place ; and hence it followeth , that they were not so many but still they might be one congregation as well as one church . so that of the foure particulars , which he saith we must prove , some wee see need not to be proved at all , and the first of them which we can prove with case doth make much for the weakning of his cause , and for the strengthening of ours . yea mr. mather will have the whole containing as one independant congregation , act. 6. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4. and the many myriads or thousands of beleeving jewes , acts 21. 21 , 22 , 23. to meete as one congregation . answ . when in the answer i speake of these places , the word independant was not there used by me at all , but only is here added by himselfe , for what cause himselfe can best tell . but for the matter , i conceive the thing which i there delivered is cleere from the texts themselves , that the multitude of those iewes did assemble and come together , in one place ; for as for one of the places act. 6. it is expresly there said that the apostles called the multitude together to propose unto them the choice of deacons , verse 2 ▪ and bad them look out from amongst themselves seaven men , qualifyed as the apostles do there describe , verse 3. whereupon it is said that the saying pleased the whole multitude and they chose seaven who are there named verse 5. and presented them unto the apostles that they might lay their hands on them , verse 6. which plainely shewes that the whose multitude how many soever they were , yet were not so many , but they might all assemble in one place , to heare matters proposed to them , to consider thereof , and upon liking to put them in execution , as in other things so in this particular , of making election of officers , as there they are recorded to have done . and as for the other place act. 21. though it be a question , whether those many thousand iewes , that beleeved were all members , of that one church at jerusalem , yet it cannot be any question , whether they might come together in one place , sith iames and the elders do expresly there say unto paul , the multitude must needs come together , for they will heare that thou art come . nor can we say they might come together onely distributively , in sundry companies , but not all in one place , for the end of their comming together will not beare that exposition , which end was , that they might see , and heare paul , and try what satisfaction he would give them , in the matter whereof they were informed of him , that he taught the iewes , to forsake moses , and to omit circumcision and other iewish customes . these things they were informed to have been taught by him amongst the gentiles , and hearing that he was come to the city , they must needs come together to heare what he would say to the matter , and how hee would cleere himselfe . now if this was the end of their comming together it must needs be that their comming was altogether unto one place , and not in severall companies ; for this could not answer their end , inasmuch as paul being but one person , it was not possible they could see him , nor heare him in sundry places at once ; and therefore they might as well have staid at home , and not have come together at all , as come together in such sort . plaine it is therefore , that the multitude spoken of in these two scripures were not so many but they might meete in one congregation . which point as something hath been said in the answer p. 34 , 35. for the cleering of it , so i am the more confirmed in it by mr. rutherford his dealing concerning these scriptures . for though he make mention of them in this place , as we see , and of that apprehension of mine concerning those scriptures , yet he doth not at all remove the grounds , which were given for that apprehension in the answer , but doth wholly passe them by in silence . now taking occasion to speak of the scriptures , and relating what my apprehension was concerning the same , and yet saying nothing at all to the gronnds , whereon that apprehension was built , it seemes hereby to bee implyed that indeed he had nothing in readinesse to object against the same . so that i may still conceive of those scriptures as i did before , for any thing yet brought to induce me to be of another mind . as for that which next followes , certainly the apostles practice must be our rule , and then 500 or 1000 being so farre beneath 10 or 8000 , may well seeme a number for fewnesse not competent , and what shall wee then thinke of 7 only , or 10. answ . the answer is , that the apostles practise doth not at all condemn ours , though our congregations have not in them the like numbers , but sometimes more and sometimes lesse ; for was it not so in that primative apostolike church ? is it not plain , that that church was for number farre lesser at the first , then afterward , when they grew to 4000 or more ; and yet after this they grew to be fewer againe , when persecution scattered them all abroad except the apostles , act. 8. 1. and therefore if 10 or 8000 , being once the number in that church , be a rule condemning out churches , as being for fewnesse not competent , when they are beneath that number , how will it be avoided but by the same reason the practise of that church at one time , shall be a rule , for the condemning of it self at another time ? for sure it is , their number was not at all times alike , but sometimes more , and sometimes lesse ; as in the sea it is not alwayes full tyde , but sometimes low ebbe , nor is the moone alwayes at full , but sometimes at the change ; nay if the apostles practise must be our rule , then inasmuch as their churches , had not alwayes the like numbers of members in them , but sometimes the number was greater , and sometimes lesser , it will follow therefore that the number of members in our churches needs not alwayes to bee the same , but though greater numbers be lawfull , yet the lawfulnesse of lesser numbers may not be denyed . chap. xiv . whether the church at corinth was one church , meeting distributively in sundry congregations , or whether it was onely one congregation . and whether 1 cor. 14. 23. if the whole church came together in some place &c. doe make for sundry congregations or for one onely . page 464. i cannot but thinke that weake which mr. mather and mr. tompson say ( answer page 37. ) the place 1 cor. 14. 23. that speaketh of the whole church comming together to one place doth unavoidably prove , that corinth had their meetings and not by way of distribution into severall congregations , but altogether in one congregation : and it is plaine , that though they had variety of teachers and prophets , yet they all used to come together to one place . answ . if that which wee say be weake , it is more easie for one of such ability and strength as mr. rutherford to overthrow the same . yet it is not words that will suffice , but weight of reason that must availe thereto . let us heare therefore his answer to this passage which he thinkes and censures to be so weake . the place saith he , 1 cor. 14. 23. if the whole church come together &c. deth evince the contrary . for the apostle doth there reason ab absurdo , from a great incongruity : it were incongruous saith he , and ridiculous that the whole church of corinth and all their guifted men speaking with tongues ( so that they could not be understood by infidels ) should all convene in one place , and speake with divers tongues : for the unlearned and unbeleevers would say they were madde ; therefore hee presupposeth that the whole church should not all come to one place , but that they should so come to one place , in divers assemblies . — answ . and is it true indeed , that this place doth evince the contrary ? viz. that the church at corinth did not all meet in one congregation : how shall we be assured that such a thing is evinced by the place ? for as for the reason given , &c. that the apostle d●th there reason ab absurdo , or from great incongruity , this doth not prove the thing at all , partly because they might practise something that were not meete but had incongruity in it , and partly ( and more especially ) because the apostle doth not lay the absurdity where mr. rutherford layes it , viz. in the convening of the whole church in one place , but in their speaking with strange tongues when they were convened and come together . touching the former of these , mr. rutherford reasoneth to this effect . if it were an incongruous or un●it thing that the whole church at corinth should come together in one place , then they did not so come together : but the first is true , ergo the second is true also . in which kind of reasoning ( such is our weaknesse ) we thinke neither part of the argument to be free from just exception . for as we wholly deny the assumption , so we also thinke there is no sufficient strength of consequence in the maine proposition , forasmuch as sundry things were practised in that church which were no wayes fit not meet to be practised , and which the apostle doth therefore reprove , and seekes the redresse of the same : witnesse their factions and divisions : chap. 1. & 3. their neglecting church censures against the incestuous person , and on the contrary being puffed up , chap. 5. their going to law one with another before the infidels , chap. 6. their abuses in prayer and prophesying , their women uncovered and their men covered , chap. 11. their abuses in the lords supper , when they so came unto it that one was hungry and another drunken , chap. 11. now as it were an unsufficient kind of arguing to say , these things were unfit and unmeet , and therefore that church did not so practise , even so mr. rutherford his arguing seemes to be no better , who would prove they did come together in one place , because the apostle , as he thinks , did count such comming together unmeet . for if it were granted that such a comming had been unmeet , yet it doth not follow , but such might bee their practise notwithstanding : and therefore as hee counts our apprehension in this matter to be weak , so i leave it to himself and others to consider , whether in this consequence , it was not meet they should all come together in one place , ergo they did it not , be very strong . i desire here not to be mistaken : for i do not grant that their comming together in one place was unmeet , nor that the apostle doth reprove them for the same ; i have already said the contrary , in denying the assumption afore mentioned , which i do still deny . but the thing i intend , is to consider the strength of mr. rutherford his reasoning , and for that cause to apply it to the thing in question , which i still desire to keepe close unto , if it may be . now the thing in question , being this , whether the church at corinth , were so many at that they could nor meet together in one assembly , but had many congregations , and all but one church , and mr rutherford maintaining the affirmative , and bringing this reason for it , taken from the congruity of meeting all together , i therefore thought meet , to weigh the strength of this reason , which i do not perceive to be in any wise convincing : but supposing the apostle had counted such meetings , inconvenient and unmeet , yet this reason as i conceive , is too weak to prove mr. rutherford his purpose , that their number was such as that they could not all possibly meet in one place ; for they might possibly do that which were unmeet to be done , in this particular as well as they did in many other things . but in this particular i do not thinke , they did any thing absurd , or unmeet at all ; and therefore for further answer to this reason i would say : that the apostle doth not say the absurdity , where mr. rutherford layes it , to wit , in that the whole church did convene , and come together , but in speaking with strange tongues when they were convened , this latter being incongruous : and absurd indeed ; for the infidels comming into the church assembly , and hearing them so speake , might thinke them madde , as the apostle sayes ; but for assembling all in one place , i know no madnesse that was in that ; nor shew thereof ; nor do i yet beleeve that the apostle doth place the absurdity there . for though mr. rutherford bee a worthy man and learned , yet such a thing as this had need of some further proofe then his bare word . if a church should meet distributively in divers assemblies , and being so met should speake with strange tongues , i demand whether this manner of speaking , do prove such a way of meeting absurd ; i suppose he will say no , because it is the way of meeting which he holds the apostolike churches did use ; and if so , then suppose they should so speake with strange tongues , when they meet collectively all in one assembly , how can this manner of speaking conclude the absurdity of such kind of meeting any more then it did in the other ? for my part , though such kind of speaking have incongruity and inconveniency in it , yet i conceive assembling collectively and in one congregation is no more prejudiced thereby , then assembling distributively in many . hee ( that is the apostle ) presupposeth that the whole church should come to one place , in divers assemblies , and all prophecy in a tongue known to the infidels , as the unbeleever being convinced and judged of all the prophets might fall down in his face , &c. answ . if the prophets were met in divers assemblies at once , i marvell how the unbeleever should be convinced and judged of them all ; for i hope one singular and individuall unbeleever was not present in divers assemblies at once , nor convinced and judged ( as here he is said to be ) by those prophets , from whose assembly he was absent . eithe● therefore the prophets were all met in one assembly and not in divers , or else it is yet a quaere how he could be convinced by them all . for sure the unbeleever could not be present in sundry assemblies at once . page 465. the whole church is not the whole much people of corinth that beleeved , that did ordinarily meet in one place , the text saith no such thing , and that is to be proved and not taken as granted . answ . suppose it were true , that the whole church was not the whole much people of corinth that beleeved , this doth nothing prejudice our cause , for as much as our question is not about the whole much people that beleeved , but about the whole church . if therefore it be granted that the whole church collectively did come together in one place , we have what we desire , and require no more . as for the whole much people that beleeved , whether this be the same with the former or no , wee shall have no need to prove or take for granted that these did in like manner come together , for as much as our question in the termes of it is not about these , but about the other . but why is not the whole church the whole much people that beleeved ? shall we say the whole church is more then the people that beleeved ? or shall wee say it is not so much ? i conceive it must be one of these , or else it must be the same . if it be said it is more , then still we have our desire , if not more then we demand . for if a company that is greater then all the much people that beleeved , were neverthelesse not so great , but they might and did assemble in one congregation , then that much people that beleeved might so assemble much more . for if there be no impossibility but a company that is greater may so assemble , i suppose the same cannot bee denyed of a company that is lesser . againe , to say this whole church was a greater number then the much people that beleeved , is directly to gainsay himselfe , who in page 460 , 461. makes the much people a greater number then the congregation meeting for the word , sacraments , and church censures ; because such a congregation , he saith , could not conveniently exceed one thousand , whereas the much people must bee much in comparison of thousands of jewes who rejected christ , for that otherwise it would not have beene much for pauls comfort , for which end it is mentioned and brought . if it be said the whole church be lesse then the people that beleeved , then it followes that some of those beleevers were not of the church , and so what himselfe hath written , page 125. 242. 251. will not stand . for in page 125 , hee saith , that the seale of baptisme and the profession of the truth is that which makes one member of the visible church — and by this are all the citizens and domesticks in-churched , and received into a visible church . and page 242. he saith any who blamelessely professe christ is ecclesiastically — in foro ecclesiae , a true and valid member of the church visible , having ecclesiasticall power valid for that effect , and page 251. he saith , a visible profession of the truth and doctrine of golinesse is that which essentially constituteth a visible church and every member of the visible church . now if these things be so , then it followes that this whole people that beleeved were all of them members of the church , inasmuch as they were all partakers of baptisme and profession , which he saith do essentially constitute the visible church and every member thereof . and they were all members of the church , then the church was not a lesser company then they . nor can hee say it was a greater company , for the reasons mentioned before . and if it was neither a greater company nor a lesser , was it not then the same . and if it was the same , then how can this stand which he affirmeth in the place wee have in hand , where hee saith the whole church is not the whole much people that beleeved ? it seemes to me , that which way soever he shall take , his own pen will be witnesse against himselfe ; for in the place wee have in hand , hee saith the whole church is not the whole much people that beleeved : and in another place hee tels us , that the much people that beleeved was a greater number then the whole church meeting for word , sacraments , &c. and yet in a third place hee tels us , that in effect it was not greater , inasmuch as all baptized professing beleevers , hee saith , are of the church . further , when the text speakes of the whole church comming together in some place , let the wise judge whether it be a good exposition to say , by the whole is not meant the whole , but only a part . which i conceive is mr. rutherfords exposition , who will not yeeld that the whole did come together in any one place , but part in one place , and part in another , the whole being distributed into severall parts , and those parts into severall places . so that the whole church comming together into some place , must have this meaning , the whole came not together in any place , but part in one place and part in another , which i feare is too much violence offered to the sacred text , which should be handled with reverence . but he brings a reason for this exposition , and that is this , because else we must say that at any one assembly all the prophets and teachers did prophesy at corinth ; for the text saith , he is convinced of all , he is judged of all , whereas the consequence should bee absurd , it should bee a longsome and wearisome meeting , page 465. answ . and if they prophesyed not all in one assem●ly but divers , how could the unbeleever bee convinced and judged by them all ? it will not bee easie to conceive how it could be , they prophesying in such a way : for the unbeleever sure could not be present in sundry assemblyes at once , but in one onely . and therefore , those words , he is convinced of all , he is judged of all , will lay as much absurdity upon his exposition of the words as upon ours , or rather a great deale more . for as for ours , there is no absurdity therein at all , for asmuch as by all the prophets is meant all that prophesied at the time , when the unbeleever was present , and not that all must prophesy upon one day as mr. rutherford would have it . but the text doth not so say , nor any interpreter that i have met withall . sure i am beza saith , the expresse contrary , for upon verse 31. ye may all prophesy one by one , &c. he hath this note , non eodem sane die , sed ternis &c. that is indeed not all upon one day ( which is mr. rutherfords exposition ) but three at every moeing , having their turne to speak till all had spoken by course . interpreters say they met in divers assemblies , page 465. answ . let those interpreters be named ; and there words set down , and then by gods help we shall consider of what they say , and of the grounds and reasons thereof ▪ in the meane time to say that interpreters say it , and yet neither to tell us the reasons nor the words of those interpreters , nor so much as the names of any of them , how should this prevaile with us to turne us away from our former apprehensions in the point ? true it is in another place , &c. pag 461. speaking of verse 31. yea may all prophesy one by one , hee there tels us that diodatus understands it that they might prophecy , by course and in divers or sundry assemblies ; and essius , saith he , saith the same , to wit , that these prophets were to prophesy in divers assemblies . answ . for diodatus i have him not at hand , and therefore i cannot peruse the place ; but for estius , this i may say , that he neither saith what here is reported in his commentary upon the verse alledged , nor upon any verse else in all the chapter , as farre as i can observe , and i have read and perused him on purpose to see what were to be found in him : but though i cannot find him affirming that which mr. rutherford brings him for , yet i find sundry places , wherein he seemes to me to affirme the contrary ; for instance , commenting upon the verse alledged , hee hath these words as the sence which he most preferres , viz. quod si non unus tantum propheta sed plures &c. that is , if not only one prophet but sundry , yea all do speake in the assembly in order , it will come to passe that those all may also learne , and receive exhortation , there being never a one of them , who is not also a hearer . wherein we see he speaks not one word of prophesying in divers assemblies at the same time , but that they were so to prophesy that all of them were to be hearers , and learners , as well as speakers . which doth plainly imply , that there must be many prophets in one assembly at once . againe , upon verse ●9 , he hath these words as the sense of the place , quamvis forte multi suit in ecclesiae — vestra prophetae &c. that is , although perhaps there be many prophets in your church , yet it will be sufficient if two or three do speake at one meeting , and for others it shall be their duty to judge , that is to say , to examine and try whether these things be true and sound which are spoken by them that speake . wherein he plainly shewes his judgement to be that at one meeting they were to have many prophets present , of whom two or three onely were to speake , and the rest to try and examine what was spoken . and to the same purpose he speakes upon verse 32. which he counts to be the same with that of judging , verse 29. further these words verse 23. of the whole church comming together into one place , he expounds thus , alicujus loci totus populus fidelis , that is , all the faithfull or beleeving people of a place ; which is contrary to mr. rutherford who will not have the whole church , to be the whole much people that beleeved . finally , speaking of those words verse 24. if all prophesy , he hath these words , nec omnes inteligit absoluté , &c. that is , the apostle understands not all absolutely but to this sense , to wit , if all that speake in the assembly of the church do prophesy , that is , if prophets only do speake , and they that have the gift of tongues do hold their peace . which is contrary to mr. rutherford who understands the text so , that they were all to prophesie at one time ; and because at one meeting there were but two or three to prophesie , which two or three hee thinkes could not be all , hee will therefore have it that they were distributed into severall assemblies , and so did prophesie all at once , though onely two or three at one meeting . for which interpretation , though he alledgeth estius , yet estius wee see affords him no help at all . whereupon i have marvelled why estius should be alledged , sometimes thinking with my selfe whether his name might not bee mis-printed by the printer , instead of some other man ; sometimes thinking whether mr. rutherford his memory might not faile him in this particular , having read the thing in some other author , and supposing it had been in estius . but what ever might be the reason of this mistake , he that shall examine estius will not find in him any help at all for mr. rutherfords cause in this particular , but the contrary . the text saith expresly , verse 29 , that at one time they prophesied but two or three . answer . this is a mistake also : for the words are , let the prophets speake two or three , and let the other judge . now let them do so , doth not shew their practise , but their duty : not what they did , but what they should have done . the text saith , if there be no interpreter let him that hath an unknown tongue keepe silence in the church , verse 20. and let your women keepe silence in the churches , verse 34. now shall any man say , that these texts do expresly prove that it was the manner of their women and of their men that had unknown tongues to keepe silence . i suppose no man can say it , the words being not a report of what their practise was , but a rule of direction to shew them how they ought to practise . and so wee say of the case in hand . but let it be supposed that it was not onely their duty , but also their practise to prophesie at one meeting but onely two or three , what can master rutherford gaine heereby ? his words following do tell us , where hee saith , if two onely prophesyed at one assembly , as this text will warrant cleerely . answ . not so , the text allowes three , which is more then two onely . but go on , and let us heare the consequence . then how doth this whole church consisting of all the beleevers at corinth , as is supposed by our brethren , convince the infidell , so as it may beare this sence , he is convinced of all , he is judged of all ▪ can two prophets be all prophets ? answ . though wee suppose the whole church consisted of all the beleevers at corinth , yet that the whole church did convince the the infidell , this wee never said nor supposed at all : for wee supposed and so do still , that hee was to bee convinced onely by the prophets , besides whom there were many others that were of the church . but for his demand , whether two prophets can bee all prophets , the answer is , that though two bee not all where there are more then two , yet if there bee no more , there it is otherwise ; and so where there are but two or three that doe prophesie at one meeting , there hee that is convinced by those two or three , may bee said to bee convinced of all , that is of all that doe prophesie . this sence of the place must needs bee received , else how shall the apostles words bee reconciled and stand together ? for as in one verse hee requireth , that the prophets speake two or three at one meeting , and the rest to iudge , verse 29. and in another verse affirmeth that the infidell in the case there proposed , is judged of all , verse 24. so hee doth not onely suppose in the very same verse , that they did all prophesie , if all , prophesie saith hee , and there come in one that beleeveth not , &c. but moreover in verse 31. hee expresly and plainely allowes them thus to prophesie ; yee may all prophesie , saith hee , one by one , that all may learne and all may bee comforted . which places compared doe evince the sence of the words heere given , and doe plainely shew that what hee saith verse 24. of the infidell being convinced of all and judged of all , may bee truely made good , if hee bee convinced of all and iudged of all that prophesyed at that meeting , though their number that so prophesyed were no more but two or three . and therefore whereas hee concludes , surely for my part i thinke it must unavoidably bee said , that they prophesyed distributively and in severall congregations , the answer is , that this needs not to bee said at all , but may bee avoided with ●ase ; and the contrary may bee safely held ; to wit , that they pro●●●cied collectively and in one congregation . for first , they did so prophesy , that one that beleeved not , and one unlearned might come in amongst them when they were prophesying , and by that meanes might bee convinced of all and judged of all , verse 24. which might well bee done , if they prophesyed all in one congregation , but otherwise it could not , for as much as one unbeleever could not bee present in severall congregations at once . secondly , they were so to prophesie , that the prophets when they prophecied were to have the rest of the prophets to bee 〈◊〉 , to heare and iudge of that which was delivered , let the prophets speake two or three , and the rest judge , verse 29. and the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets , verse 32. the former of which sayings mr. rutherford himselfe doth understand of a colledge prophets , having a power dogmaticall of judging , and censuring the doctrine of the prophets delivered . what they speake , saith he , page 467. is to bee judged and put under censure ; for the whole colledge must judge ; for which he alledgeth verse 29. and a little after , this is not a power of judging which every christian hath , for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saith piscator doth relate to the prophets , who are to judge ; but as ● take it a propheticall judging , which may warrant the iuridicall power of a presbytery , &c. by all which it plainely appeareth that when the prophets did prophesy , the other prophets were to bee present , to heare and judge of the doctrines delivered ; and if so , how can it bee that they prophesyed in severall congregations at the same time ? for had it been so , they could not have judged of one anothers doctrine , which they could not heare , being themselves at that time imployed in speaking in some other place . and therefore it seemes more likely , that they met in one congregation , where they might all prophesy , first one and then another , some at one time and some at another , and so all of them might also heare and learne , and judge of the doctrine delivered by others . chap. xv. whether the church at ephesus were more in number then corinth and jerusalem , and the judgement of mr. baynes ; whether that church was many congregations , or one onely ? pag . 470. having suggested sundry things , to prove that ephesus was many congregations , and yet but one church ; hee concludes this , viz. upon these considerations , i leave to our reverend brethren their judgement ; if mr. mather and mr. thompson say right , we doe not thinke they were more in number at ephesus then in corinth and jerusalem , where the christians met all in one place . answ . the exception then which in this place is taken against mr. thompson and me , is for this , that we doe not thinke the christians at ephesus , to be more in number then at jerusalem and corinth . concerning which , i will not say much , but onely this , that as we have onely delivered what we think in this matter , without determining or asserting any thing peremptorily ; so we shall readily imbrace the contrary , when good grounds shall be shewed for the same : which though we doe not yet perceive to be performed in all that mr. rutherford hath said ; yet i will not here spend time in examining the same , because i do not count this point of so much importance concerning the principall thing in question . for whether the church at ephesus were more in number then corinth and jerusalem , or whether it were otherwise ; there is no great matter in this as touching the maine question . for if all of them were such churches , as might usually meet together in one congregation , as i conceive they were ▪ it matters not much which of them was most in number . but doth not m. rutherford prove that the one church at ephesus was more then one congregation ? i confesse , he hath sundry things in the precedent pages , which he intendeth that way . but in asmuch as they doe not concerne m. tompson and me in particular , nor are by him applyed against any passage in the answer ; i will therefore passe them over more briefly , my purpose being chiefly , to consider of such particulars , wherein he takes exception against the answer . only , thus much i would advertise the reader , that a good part of that which mr. rutherf . brings to prove many congregations in one church at ephesus , hath been answered long agoe by mr. baynes in his diocesans triall , pag. 5. which i the rather commend to mr. rutherfords consideration , because , he counts him a man of worth , calling him worthy baynes : and for the help of such readers , as cannot readily come to the book it self , i will here transcribe a few lines out of the same worthy baynes , as they are to be found in his dioces . triall . p. 5 , 6. viz. the church of ephesus was but one flock ; first , it is likely that it was of no other forme then the other . ( sir , ierusalem , antioch and corinth , which he had before shewed to be each of them one congregation . ) secondly , it was but one flock , that which presbyters might joyntly feed : they had no diocesan paster : if presbyters onely , then none but parishonall churches in and about ephesus : theremay be many flocks , but god ordained none but such as may wholely meet with those who have the care of feeding and governing of them : peter indeed 1 pet. 5. 2. calleth all those he writteth unto one flock , but that is in regard either of the mysticall estate of the faithfull , or in respect of the common nature , which is in all churches one and the same : but properly and in externall adunation , one flock is but one congregation . thirdly , parishes according to the adverse opinion were not then divided : neither doth the long and fruitfull labours of the apostle argue that there should bee parish churches in diocesan wise added , but a great number of sister churches . but when it is said , that all asia did heare , the meaning is that from hand to hand , it did runne through asia ; so as churches were planted every where , even where paul came not , as at collosse : there might be many churches in asia , and many converted by peter , and others fruitfull labours , without subordination of churches . chap. xvi . whether the church at antioch was onely one congregation , and whether acts 14. 27. and 15. 30. doe not prove the affirmative . the answer , having in pag. 5. alledged acts. 14. 27. and 15. 30 , 31. to prove that the church at antioch was no more then might be gathered together into one place , mr. rutherford in answer hereto saith , p. 472 , 473. that the place acts 14. 27. is the representative church , and that he beleeveth the assembling of the multitude , acts 15. vers . 30. must be taken distributively . answ . this answer of mr. rutherfords , to the former place , was removed long ago by worthy mr. baynes , who also understands the latter place as we doe , and not as mr. rutherford : for in his dioces . triall , maintaining this position , that the churches instituted by the apostles , were onely such as might meet in one congregation ordinarily , and giving this very place and instance of the church of antioch , for one of his grounds , for confirming the said position , p. 5. hee comes imediately thereupon to answer an objection , which is the very same that here mr. rutherford brings to the former place , viz. that the church mentioned in that place , was the ministers or representative church : for the removing whereof mr. baynes returneth 4. things , 1. that the word church , is never so used : 2. he argues by analogy from that acts 11. where peter gives account before the whole church , even the church of the faithfull , and therefore in like sort , paul and barnabas might report before the whole church of the faithfull , what things god had done by them . 3. saith he , they made relation to that church which had sent them forth , with prayer and imposition of hands ; and this church stood of all those who assembled to the publicke service and worship of god , ( which is cleere , acts 13. 2. ) 4. his fourth particular is this other place of acts 15. vers . 30. where , saith he , the people of the church of antioch were gathered together , to consider of decrees sent them by the apostles from ierusalem , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . in all which , we cleerly perceive the judgement of this worthy man to be the same with us , and as clearly against mr. rutherford , as can be expressed , which being so , and his judgement being delivered upon such reasons , as seem to me weighty , and which mr. rutherford doth not remove ; i therefore see no sufficient reason to think otherwise of the church of antioch then formerly . for as for m. rutherford his reason to prove the place , acts 14. 27. to be meant of a representative church , viz. that they met for a matter of discipline , at least for a matter that concerned all the churches , to wit , to know how god had opened the doore of saith unto the gentiles : the answer is , that this doth not evince the thing : 1. because rehearsing , how god had opened the doore of faith unto the gentiles , being neither admission of members , nor of officers , nor any matter of censure , nor any thing else ; but onely a meer declaration of the gracious workings of the lord , cannot be any matter of discipline , as i conceive . 2. suppose it were a meeting for matter of discipline , must it needs be a meeting for elders alone , without the presence of the faithfull ? will mr. rutherford deny it to be l●wfull for any to be present at matters of discipline , but onely the elders ? i suppose he will not deny it at all , sure i am he hath heretofore written otherwayes ; peaceable plea p. 49. where he granteth that all matters of discipline must be done with the peoples consent , and alledgeth about 19. or 20. divines old and new for the same tenet . now if matters of discipline must be done with the peoples consent , then the people must be present thereat ; for else they give their consent blindefold . and if they must be present at such matters ; then suppose the matter mentioned in the scripture we have in hand , had been of that nature , yet the church that was gathered together about the same , needed not to be a representative church of elders alone , as mr. rutherford would have it , but might consist of the people also , who by his own grant may be lawfully present at such matters . 3. be it a matter of discipline , or a matter that concerned all the churches , or what else mr. rutherford will have it ? it is plain that paul and barnabas when they were at ierusalem , did declare such matters as here they do declare at antioch , not onely to the apostles and elders , whom he perhaps would make a representative church , but also to a church besides them , i mean besides the apostles and elders ; for so it is said , acts 15. 4. that at ierus●lem they were received of the church , and of the apostles and elders , and declared all things that god had done with them : and vers . 12. they declared to the multitude what miracles and wonders god had wrought among the gentiles by them . now if they declared these things at ierusalem not onely to the apostles and elders , as to a representative church , but to the church of the faithfull also , as the text saith , they did , what reason can be rendred that the church , which was gathered together at antioch , should be onely a representative church ? and that the people there were not present ? for my part , i see no reason for it , but that they might declare these things to the brethren a● antioch , as well as to the brethren at ierusalem ; and as well to a representative church at ierusalem , as to a representative church at antioch . and therefore sith it is apparent that at ierusalem they declared these things to a church , which consisted of others besides apostles and elders ; the church at antioch to whom they declared the same things , might be also a church of the like kinde , and not a representative church , as our brother conceives it to be . 4. the nature of the thing , which they doe declare to this church was such , as that it was fit enough for the people to be acquainted therewith ; which the text mentions in two clauses ; first , more generally , all that god had done with them : secondly , more specially , how he had opened the doore of faith to the gentiles . now suppose the people had nothing to do in matters of judicature by way of power therein , yet to be informed of other peoples conversion , and how god blessed the labors of the apostles to that end , which are the things they declared to this church , these are no such matters , but the people may bee acquainted therewith for their comfort , and that god might have praises from them all ; and therefore the church to whom paul and barnabas declared these things , needs not to be understood of the elders alone , but may well enough be a church consisting also of ordinary christians . 5. paul thought it not unmeet to make known to all the corinthians the grace of god bestowed on the churches of macedonia , 2 cor. 9. 1 , 2. and declareth to them of macedonia , the forwardnesse of the corinthians in the grace of liberality , 2 cor. 9. 2. shewing the good that came hereby , in that the example of gods grace , in some provoked many others to the like , 2 cor. 9. 2. your zeale , saith he , hath provoked very many ; and likewise in that , by this meanes , there redounded many thanksgivings unto god , vers . 12 , 13. and if upon these and other good causes he did thus practice towards the christians of macedonia and achaia , i know no good reason why he and barnabas should deal otherwise with the christians at antioch , and conceale from them the gracious workings of god by their ministery amongst the gentiles ; and make known the same onely to a representative church of elders . as for our brothers answer to the other scripture , act. 15. 30. that the assembling of the multitude , there spoken of , must be taken distributively , i conceive the text will not beare that exposition : for the words are that they gathered the multitude together , then delivered the epistle . now if this multitude was gathered together not in one assembly but diverse , how could the epistle being but one , be delivered to them all ? can one epistle be delivered to sundry or severall assemblies at one time ? i suppose it is not possible , except we shall imagine there be sundry coppies , one to be read in one assembly , and another in another ; whereof in the present case , there is not so much as the least hint . and if we would imagine such a matter , for which there is small reason ; yet since it is , iudas and silas , by whom this epistle was sent , and who were to tell the same things by mouth , and who also upon the delivering of the epistle exhorted the breathren of antioch , with many words , as is cleare , vers . 22 , 23 , 27 , 32. iudas and sila● , i say , being but two men could not be present , and speak , and act these things in many assemblies at once , but must of necessity be both in one assembly , or at the most in two : but the text makes no mention of their being in two , but plainly enough intimates the contrary , that they were both together : and yet where they were present , there was the multitude gathered together , to receive the epistle by their hands , and to heare the report and word of exhortation at their mouth . unlesse therefore we will imagine that iudas and silas could be present , and act in many assemblies at once , there is no reason to think this multitude among whom they were present and acted , to be many congregations or assemblies . and therefore for his conclusion , pag. 475 , 476. that the mentioning of one multitude in the singular number , acts 15. 30. can never prove that there was but one single congregation at antioch . the answer is , that we doe not lay the force of our reason in the mentioning of the multitude in the singular number , and therefore it can not thus be satisfied , or put off : for our words are these : the whole multitude of them were gathered together at the return of paul and barnabas from the synod at jerusalem , to heare the epistle read , which was sent from that synod : answer p. 50. wherein it is easie to perceive , that we lay the force of our reason not in this , that the church is called a multitude in the singular number ; but in this , that the whole multitude were gathered together , for such an end , as there is expressed : and this we still conceive may prove the point : for a church , which is such a multitude , as is gathered together , for the receiving of one epistle , which was sent unto them all , and which is gathered together to heare the epistle read , and also to heare the same things by mouth , the men from whose mouth they must so heare , and from whose hands they must so receive , being no more but two ; such a church as this can be no more , but one congregation , or assembly . now antioch was such a church : and therefore was no more but one congregation . if this conclusion be not granted , some way must be devised how many severall assemblies might all be receivers and hearers of one and the same epistle at the same time , there being but one coppy of the epistle , as also how they might at one time heare the same things declared to them by mouth , when there was but two men to declare the same . and when such a way is found out , we may then further consider thereof . but in the mean time , the grounds and reasons alledged doth induce me to think , that antioch , where those things were thus done , was indeed , but one congregation . chap. xvii . whether no liberties are given by christ to the people , but women must exercise the same , as well as men : and of the peoples liberty about ordination , or the calling of ministers . in the answer , p. 8. we have these words , viz. governing properly so called we acknowledge not in any , but in the elders alone , 1 cor. 12. vers . 28. rom. 12. 8. heb. 13. 17. if that word be ascribed to the people , it must be understood in a more improper sense ; for that which impropriety of speech were more fitly called liberty or priviledge : and yet this liberty when it is exercised about ordination , deposition , excommunication , &c. is of the whole body communiter , or in generall , but not of all and every member in particular , as you conceive us to hold ; for women and children are members , and yet are not to act in such matters , the one being debarred by their sex , and the other for want of understanding and discretion . this passage mr. rutherford having related ( though with some variation ) in his pag. 476 : in answer thereto , he saith thus , p. 477. if there be no governing power in women , nor any act at all in excommunication , you loose many arguments , that you bring 1 cor. 5. to prove that all have hand in excommunication , 1. because paul writeth to all . 2. all were to mourne . 3. all were to forbeare the company of the excommunicated : then belike paul writeth not to all saints at corinth , not to women , and women were not to mourne for the scandall , nor to forbeare his company . answ . if mr. tompson and i doe being such arguments from 1 cor. 5. why is not the place quoted , where we doe bring them ? i suppose there is no such place at all that can be produced ; and therefore i desire so much favour , that what we never said , may not be imputed to us , nor divulged abroad , as ours . if others doe bring such arguments from 1 cor. 5. they that bring them are able to speake for themselves , and to give account of their own arguments ; but i know no reason that doth require , that we should be drawn to defend such arguments as we never used ; nor that doth allow our reverend brother to report such arguments as ours ; which having never been used by us , i counted it therefore an impertinent digression , to spend time in the defence of them . the priviledge , saith he , being a part of liberty purchased by christs body , it must be due to 〈…〉 for the liberty wherewith christ hath made women free , cannot be taken away 〈…〉 of god from their sex , except in christ iesus there be a difference between iew and gentile , male and female . answ . that which is in the people , we say , in propriety of speech , is more ●itly called liberty or priviledge : but of liberty purchased by christs body or blood , we make no mention at all : and therefore our brother might have spared speech thereof . but it is true indeed , that the people can have no liberty , but women also may exercise the 〈…〉 else their liberty purchased for them by christ is taken away ? it seems , he so conceives : but then i desire to know how his own doctrine elsewhere , and the apostl●s w●●ds can stand together : for in one place , he saith , that acts 14. 23. proveth that elders ordaine elder , with lifting up of the hands of the people , and this , saith he , is 〈…〉 doctrine , due right p. 190. and in another place , he saith , the people have gods right to choose ministers , for so the word prescribeth ; for which in his margent he alledgeth 〈◊〉 severall texts of scripture , acts 15. 22. 1 cor. 16. 3. 2. cor. 8. 19. acts 6. 4. acts 14. 23. and in his text alledgeth tertullian , cyprian , ambrose , origen , chrysostome , the councell of nice , the first generall councell of constantinople , with other councels and authors witnessing the same : pag. 201 , 202. and in a third place , he grants that all matters in the church must be done with the peoples consent , consentiente plebe , alledging a matter of 18. or 19. authors for the same tenet . peaceable plea , p. 49. and in another place he alledgeth and approveth the judgement of mr. calderwood , and mr. cartwright affirming that this liberty is purchased by the blood of christ : due right , secondly , pag. 464. all which , do plainly shew that in his judgement , the people have some 〈◊〉 , or priviledge , or right in church matters ; yea , as himself saith in this , they have divinum jus , gods right : and yet for all this , the apostles words do plainly forbid women to speak in the church , 1 cor. 14. 34. 1 tim. 2. 12. which very prohibition to women doth also secretly imply , that men may have liberty to practise , though women may not . now then , if the people have liberty , priviledge , right to consent , and act in church matters ; yea , to speak in the church , and yet women may not speak therein , how can this stand , which here m. rutherford writes , that if the people have any liberty , this liberty must also be due to women ? if the apostles words and our brothers own doctrine in the places cited do stand , his saying in the place , we have now in hand , cannot stand , they being so contrary one to another . thirdly , saith he , what priviledge the people have in ordination to conferre a ministery , which they neither have formally , nor virtually , i know not . answ . neither formally , nor virtually ? then hear your own words , pag. 7. i deny not but there is a power virtuall , not formall in the church of beleevers , to supply the want of ordination of pastors , hic & nunc ; this power is virtuall , not formall , &c. whereas in the place we have in hand , the virtuall power as well as the formall is denyed ; which things are not free from interferring , or strong appearance thereof . our words are not just the same which m. rutherford sets downe , a priviledge in ordination to conferre a ministery ; but these are our words , a liberty exercised about ordination , &c. and who knows not but there may be a liberty exercised about ordination , or any other ordinance by way of consent thereto , or desire thereof , &c. without any authoritative acting therein ? and if this liberty about ordination be such a fault , then how shall he be justified , who doth give to the people a greater matter then this liberty doth amount unto , even a power to do that which shall stand for ordination it selfe ? which to do i conceive is more then to exercise some liberty about ordination . and when the reader shall have considered these ensuing words of m rutherford : then let him be judge , whether m. rutherford do not give this power unto the people in some cases . as a rose , saith he , caused to grow in winter by art , is of that same nature with a rose produced in summer by nature , though the manner of production be different ; so are they both true pastors , those who have no call , but the peoples election , and those who have ordination by pastors , p. 186. and in the page following , he gives two reasons to prove that in some cases election by the people onely may stand for ordination : 1. because god is not necessarily tyed to succession of pastors : 2. because where men are gifted for the work of the ministery , and there be no pastors to be had , the giving of the holy ghost is a signe of a calling of god , who is not wanting to his own gracious intention , though ordinary means faile . now if the people without pastors may do that which shall stand for ordination , and if their election do make a minister in some cases ; this seems to be more then onely to exercise some liberty about ordination , for as much as they may doe this latter , and possibly no minister be made thereby ; whereas in the other case a man is made a true pastor and minister , as well as by ordination it selfe . marvell it is therefore that the greater is allowed as lawfull , and not the lesser : that some liberty about ordination may not be allowed , and yet that can be allowed which may stand for ordination it self , and which makes a minister● as truly as ordination doth . chap. xviii . of mr. rutherfords report of synodicall propositions in new-england . next after this , our reverend author falls to scanning , as he saith , pag. 476. some synodicall propositions of the churches of new england , as he calls them , together with a table of church power , which he calls the table of new england . but with favour of soworthy a man , he doth greatly mistake the matter : for neither was there any such synod , nor synodicall propositions as he speaks of , nor any such table of new england , as hee mentioneth . there was indeed at cambridge in the year 1643. a printed conference of some of the elders of that country ; where sundry points of church judgement were privatly discoursed of , and this was all . but as the meeting was not any synod , as synods are usually understood , so neither were there any synodicall propositions there agreed upon , nor any table of propositions agreed upon to be given forth as the doctrine of new england . this i am able to testifie , having been present at that meeting from the beginning thereof unto the end : and sundry others of the elders of these churches can testifie the same , upon the same ground : and knowing full well the truth of what i heare relate , i will not spend time in replying to what he hath written upon so manifest misinformation , and mistake . what information he goeth upon , i know not : per adventure some notes may have come to his view , which one or other might gather at that conference for his own private use : peradventure some in their simplicity meaning no hurt , many have called that private conference by the name and tearme of a syno● , and m. rutherford might thereupon adventure to publish in print as here we see . but however they mistake a rose , sure i am , synodicall propositions there were none ; 〈◊〉 any synod at all , not new england table . and therefore i think himselfe and others may do well and wisely hereafter , to be informed by good and sufficient intelligence of such things as they publish to the world concer●ing the churches in new england , or else not to beleeve the same , much lesse to divulge the same in print . for what comfort can it be to any christian to receive , and publish to the world against a mans neighb●u● , specially against whole churches of christ , such reports as for the matter contained in them do not agree with truth ? chap. xix . of the appeales of luther and cranmer : and of the power and jurisdiction in generall councells denyed by mr. rutherford ; whether therein he do not contradict himselfe , and also overthrow the jurisdiction of classicall , provinciall , and nationall assemblies . in his page 482. alledging mr. tompson and me , pag. 16 , 17. hee reports us to say , that though some have appealed , as luther and cranmer from the pope to a generall councell , yet not from a congregation to a generall councell . answ . as he one of these pages hath nothing at all concerning this matter , and therefore might well have been spared , so neither of them both doth make any mention of luther , either of one purpose or other : and therefore it is some marvaile , why he should be mentioned as thus spoken of by us , who do not speak of him at all so much as one word , for any purpose whatsoever . nor do the rest of the words of appealing from a congregation to a generall councell agree with ours , as we have set them downe in the 16. page alledged ; and therefore that our mind and meaning may appeare , let me relate our own words which are these , how this example ( sc . of cramners appealing to councell , related by mr. fox ) doth suit the present question , we do not understand ; for his appeale was not from a particular congregation , but from the pope : nor was it from a synod , but to the next generall councell , which from that day to this hath not yet been assembled nor called . if we must hold a necessity of appeales to such a iudicatory as cranmer appealed unto , then the supremacy of synods provinciall , and nationall is utterly taken away . these are our words in the place alledged by mr. rutherford : now what doth he answer thereto ? in matters doctrinall , saith he , some as luther , and others have justly appealed from congregation to a generall councell , though luther and cranmer did it not . answ . say it be true , that cranmer did it not , yet for luther how can it be that he should be an instance , both of such as did it not , and of such as did it ? for luther and others have justly done it , and yet luther and cranmer are two of them that did it not , these are sayings which seem not to agree . againe , if luther did so appeale , why is no proof alledged for confirmation of what here is affirmed ? which if there had been , we might have considered thereof . but sith there is not , we may be allowed to forbeare assent , till that which is here nakedly affirmed , be further strengthened by some proofe or other , to make it good . lastly , if luther or others have justly appealed from a congregation to a generall councell , then why will it not be lawfull for others upon like occasion to do the like ? and if so , then ( as we argued in the answer ) the supremacy of classicall , provinciall , and nationall presbyteries is utterly taken away : and so , by this meanes causes and controversies may still be depending , and never come to be determined so long as this world shall endure ; which whether it be agreeable to the wisdome of christ , and good of his people let the wise judge . though verily , i professe , i cannot see what power of jurisdiction to censure scandalls , can be in a generall councell ; there may be some meerly doctrinall power , if such a councell could be had , and that is all . answ . for my part , i am altogether of the same minde . but here i have a quere or two to propose to our reverend brothers serious consideration ; first of all , how this passage doth agree with that which himself hath written , pag. 387. where he saith , it may be made good that a power dogmaticall is not different in nature from a power of jurisdiction , and that we read not of any society , which hath power to meet to make lawes and decrees , which have not power also to back their decrees with punishment . yea , he saith further that if the jewish synodry might meet to declare judicially what was gods law in point of conscience , and what not , farre more may they punish contraveners of the law : for anomothetick power in a society , which is the greater power , and is in the fountaine , must presuppose in the society 〈◊〉 lesser power , which is to punish . anomothetick power ministeriall cannot want a power of censuring . so that whereto in the place we have in hand , he saith , there may be in a generall councell , some 〈◊〉 doctrinall power without any power of jurisdiction to censure , in this other place , he saith , these powers do not differ in nature , nor can the former be without the latter ; but doth alwayes presuppose the same , as that which is lesser , and which it cannot want . now how these things do agree i am not able to understand : next of all how doth this passage we have in hand agree , with that which is written p. 308 , 309. where he saith , it is by accident , and not through want of inate and intrinsecall power , that the court of a catholick councell can not in an ordinary and constant way exercise the power which christ hath given to her ; and what that power is he expresseth in two or three lines proceeding , viz. a power of jurisdiction to excommunicate and relax from excommunication even nationall churches . if the lord should be pleased to give the christian churches a generall councell this day , might lawfully in a jurisdictiall way declare the faction of the romish pretended catholicks to be mysticall babylon — which in excommunication in the essence and substance of the act . and againe , this of our saviour , tell the church , is necessarily to be applyed to all churches and courts of christ , even to a generall councell . and in page 304. he tells in that a power of jurisdiction ( though he call it extraordinary and remote , and which is but rarely to be put forth in acts ) is given to the catholick visible presbytery , of the whole catholick visible church . in all which places he plainly affirmeth there is a power of jurisdiction to censure scandalls in a generall councell , which in the place we have in hand he doth as plainly deny . thirdly , if there be no power of jurisdiction to censure scandals in a generall councell , then how shall it appeare that there is such power of jurisdiction in the classicall , provinciall and nationall presbyteries , which are farre lesse ? yea , and that there is in these presbyteries a power independent and supreame , without appeale to any other . for such power there must be in some of them , if there be any power of jurisdiction in them at all , sith we are told there is no power of jurisdiction in the generall councell to appeale unto . now how shall it appeare that any such independent supream power of jurisdiction is given to any of those presbyteries ? where are the texts of scripture that speak of such power ? for our parts we know of none , but do still think that this power is placed by christ in a single congregation and its presbytery , and are the rather strengthened in this apprehension , for that the reason which is wont to be given against the congregations power , and wherein our brethren are wont to place their greatest strength , sc . that appeals are juris naturalis , and that defects , in the parts are to be supplyed and holden by the whole , this reason we see is now removed and utterly taken away , forasmuch as all power of jurisdiction is denyed to the generall councell which is the inevitable . now if there be no power of jurisdiction within the generall councell , then there can be no appeals to such a councell for such an end : and if no appeales to that councell , then the rule doth not alwayes hold , that there must be appeals from the lesser assemblies to the greater : and if this do not alwayes hold , then there may be independent power of jurisdiction in a congregation without appeals from the same , though it be a lesser assembly then the classicall , provinciall and nationall presbyteries , and thus our purpose is gained . for how can it be avoided , except this power of jurisdiction ( yea supream or independent power ) which is denyed to the generall councell , could be proved to be in the classes , synods , or nationall presbyteries , which we think cannot be done . indeed to say on the one side , that 〈◊〉 is no independent power in the congregation , and to say on the other side , that there is no power at all of jurisdiction in generall councells , this doth inevitably lay a necessity of such independent power in these intermediat assemblies of the classicall , provinciall and nationall presbyteries ; except we shall say there is no such power at all appointed by christ in any church assemblies on earth . now if such independent power be given to the presbyteries mentioned , ( as it needs must if it be neither in the generall councell , nor in the single congregations ) then i desire to know upon what scripture or scritures , such power in the said presbyteries is grounded and built ; and whether the said power belong unto them all , or only unto some of them , and which they be , and why not to the rest as well : yea , why not to the single congregation , nor yet to the generall councell , as well as to any of them . when this quaere is answered , and the answer sufficiently proved by scripture , then we shall see more reason for the jurisdiction of such assemblies over the particular congregations then yet we have seen . in the mean , time this quaere with the rest i leave to our brethrens consideration . chap. xx. if it were granted that the light of nature teacheth all societies to end in monarchies , whether it would not thence follow , that the government of churches must so end , as well as that congregations must depend on the government of synods , because the light of nature teacheth a communion in government to other societies . and whether the multitude of grecians and hebrews , who chose the seven deacons , act. 6. were two congregations or one onely . pag . 482. if churches must be dependent on synods , because the light of nature teacheth a communion and assistance in government , by the same reason churches must end in a monarchy on earth ; for which he alledgeth the answ . pag. 20. and then subjoyneth his answer , thus : i see this said without any approbation : churches depend on many above them for unity ; but what consquence in this , erg● they depend upon one visible monarch ? it is an unjust consequence . answ . with favour of so worthy a man , he greatly wrongs our words ( and thereby wrongs the reader ) by leaving out those words wherein the plainenesse and strength of our argumentation lyes . therefore i am forced here to relate the order and progresse of the dispute in that script of ours , and to set down our words there used , because as mr. rutherford hath set them down , the strength of consequence is suppressed from the readers knowledge , and so indeed his answer is made easie : but the naked truth lyes thus . our reverend brother to whose treatise we return answer in that small piece of ours , having said , that communion and assistance in government is taught by the very light of nature to all societies whatsoever , whether commonwealths , or armies , universities , or navies ; he presently addeth by way of prevention . not that therefore this government of churches should ( as those ) end in a monarchy upon earth . in answer whereto , besides other things , we have these words , pag. 21. if churches must be dependent on the government of synods , because the light of nature teacheth a communion and assistance in government to all societies whatsoever , then we see not how it will be avoided , but by the same reason , churches must end in a monarchie on earth , if it were once cleared , that the light of nature doth teach all societies whatever so to end ; so there is as good reason for this as for the other . which last words , if it were once proved &c. mr. rutherford wholy leaves out and suppresseth , and so makes his own answer more easie . but i desire so much favour , which i think is but reasonable , that he that will undertake to answer our writing , would represent our words and arguing as it is , and no otherwise , and then i am content that the same may come under tryall . now our arguing is this ; if churches must be dependent upon the government of synods upon this reason ; because the light of nature teacheth a communion and assistance in government to all societies whatsoever ; then by the like reason let it be once proved ( which is by mr. herle affirmed ) that the light of nature teacheth all societies to end in a monarchy , and it will thereupon follow that churches must likewise end in the same manner . if we yeeld thus much that what the light of nature teacheth other societies , the same must be observed in the government of churches : i think it will then follow , that if the light of nature teach other societies to end in a monarchy on earth , the government of churches must do so also . this is our manner of arguing , in which the consequence is the same with that which our brethren think so strong , viz. that because the light of nature teacheth a communion and assistance in government , therefore there must be in the churches a government of synods . if any say the consequence is not alike necessary in both cases , because the ground doth not hold alike in both , for the light of nature doth not teach all societies on earth to end in a monarchie , as it doth teach a communion and assistance in government the answer in that we have plainly said the same , in the place of the answerer alledgeth , viz. p. 20 , 21. but the main question lyes not there , whether other societies do end in monarchies , ( for though the reverend author whom we there doe answer , do seem so to judge ; yet we have there plainly declared , that we conceive of that matter otherwise : ) but here doth lye the main question , viz. suppose it were granted , that light of nature doth teach all societies to end in a monarchy on earth , whether would it not then follow that churches must also so end : and that this is the thing in question wil plainly appear to any that shall peruse the place . and to this question , our answer is that the consequence for the affirmative is as good as in that other case , in which our brethren do think it so strong : viz. for the government of synods over congregations , from the communion and assistance — government taught by the light of nature to other societies : and our reverend brother granting that the light of nature doth teach the one as well as the other unto other societies , that is , that they should end in monarchies , as well as have communion in government , our answer is that thereupon the consequence will be as strong for the one as for the other in churches . in which arguing it is easie to perceive that we go upon the ground which was laid and given us by our author : and therefore for m. rutherford to suppresse this ground which we have there so plainly expressed , and to represent and set down our arguing as if there had been no such matter ; this indeed may make way for himself to give answer to us with ease , but whether it be candid and faire thus to deale , i leave it to himself , and the godly wise to consider . in the same pag. 482. he alledgeth the answer pag. 26. and sets down these words as ours , viz. the graecians and hebrews made not two churches , but one congregation ; they called the multitude of the disciples together , vers . 2. answ . here againe our words are set down unperfectly : for the question being , whether those graecians and hebrews , act. 6. were two severall congregation in one church , or both but one congregation , we for this latter do not onely alledge that one particular which mr. rutherford mentioneth , that the apostles called the multitude of the disciples together , vers . 2. but moreover that this multitude must look out seven men duely qualified , whom they might appoint over that businesse , v. 3. and that the saying pleased this whole multitude , and that they thereupon chose seven who are there named v. 5. and set them before the apostles , v. 6. who laid their hands on them : ibid. in all which , say we , there is no hint of two congregations , one of graecians and another of hebrews , but all the businesse of chusing and ordeyning these deacons , seems to be transacted and done in one congregation . for when the text saith that the apostles called the multitude of the disciples unto them , and made a speech to this multitude being assembled , and the whole multitude did hear what the apostles spake , and well liked the same , and thereupon joyntly concurred in one act of chusing seven , and presenting them being chosen before the apostles , it seems to me more rationall to look at these things as done in one congregation , then to imagine there were two , one of graecians another of hebrews : for of two congregations wherein this choise of deacons should be made , the text for ought i perceive doth not afford the least hint . but let us hear mr. rutherford his answer . that the chiefe , saith he , of both graecians and hebrews were contained in one , to give their consent to the admission of the deacons , i conceive . answ . the chief are not so much as once mentioned in the story : but contrarily the text expressely mentioneth the multitude , vers . 2. and the whole multitude , vers . 5. now to exclude the multitude , whom the text doth expresly mention , and to attribute the assembling and acting only to the chiefe , of whom the holy ghost speaks not one word , this ( to say no more ) seems a violent forcing of the text . and if somthing had not forced him to it , i think he would not have used it ; for elswhere ( viz. p. 495 , 496. ) he alledgeth this very scripture , and that three severall times , within the space of a doozen or sixteen lines , to prove that the people , yea the multitude are to have the choise of officers ; and saith he , if it please not the whol multitude , act. 6. vers . 5. it is not a choise . and in pag. 190. he tells us , that the multitude act. 6. are directed to choose out seven men , as being best acquainted with them ; and that accordingly they did look out seven men and chose them . in which places we see he can attribute this choise to the whole multitude , without any mention of the chief , or so much as the least intimation of the action to be performed by them , the multitude being excluded or absent ; yea , he gives a reason of this choise , which will reach the multitude , and not the chief only , except we shall say , that the chief only were acquainted with these seven : whereas in the place we have in hand , he would exclude the multitude , and ascribe the action to the chiefe onely . but that all the thousands of the church of jerusalem were here as in one ordinary congregation , i judge unpossible . answ . for asmuch as the text tells us that the whole multitude of the disciples were gathered together to act as here is recorded about the election of deacons , therefore we judge that it was not unpossible for them so to do ; for how should we judge the thing unpossible , except we would judge the words of god to be unpossible to be true ? besides , how many soever they were the text tels us act. 2. 46. that they continued daily with one accord in the temple : now temples we know there were none but one ; and therefore that they should all assemble in one congregation , we dare not judge a matter unpossible , least in so judging we should seem to question the truth of gods testimony . chap. xxi . whether congregations may be excommunicated by classes and synods , by vertue of those words , matt. 18. tell the church , as containing a rule and remedy for all offences , or at the least a church remedy , for the officers of churches , and churchmembers ? and if yea , whether it would not follow , that a nationall church must have the benefit of this remedy as well as others , and so have no independency of jurisdiction within it self , but be subject to the jurisdiction of generall councels , which yet mr. rutherford doth deny ? in the same p. 482. he excepteth against another passage in the answer p. 27 , 28. where he sets down these as our words , viz. if our argument be good , if thy brother offend and refuse to submit , tell the church , because christs remedy must be as large as the disease ; then if a nationall church offend , you are to complain to an higher church above a nationall church ; and because offences may arise between christians and indians , you may complain of an indian to the church : and then he subjoyneth his answer . answ . yet againe our words are so imperfectly related , as that our scope and intent doth not sufficiently appear to his reader . i must therefore for the readers understanding , relate the passage according to the true and plain meaning thereof . the question between reverend mr. herle and us being this , whether congregations must depend on the government of synods , and this reason being brought for the affirmative , that christs remedy , matth. 18. tell the church , must be as large as the maladie , offence ; if therefore there arise offences between congregations , there must be a church of synods above congregations , and those synods must judge and redresse those offences : to this we there answer that all offences do not fall within the compasse of this rule and remedy , tell the church ; and so no dependency of congregation upon the jurisdiction of synods can be sufficiently proved by this text . first of all , we instance in the offences of nationall churches , of which we suppose our brother will not say that they fall within the compasse of our saviours rule , tell the church , for then the independency of nationall churches and nationall synods is overthrown , as well as the congregations ; which we suppose he will not grant ; and yet it cannot be avoided if his reason for the dependency of congregations upon synods do stand firm . and next of all we instance in the offences of turks and indians and other heathens , who may offend christians and yet are not to be complained of to the church , the apostle expressely teaching the contrary , 1 col. 5. this being the scope of that passage in the answer , which here mr. rutherford , excepteth against , let us now hear what it is , which he saith thereto . because , saith he , ordinary communion faileth when you go higher then a nationall church , and christs way supposeth art ordinary communion , as is cleare , if thy brother offend , &c therefore i deny that this remedy is needfull in any church above a nationall church . answ . 1. if this remedy be not needfull in any church above a nationall , then the rule doth not universally hold true , that the remedy , complaint to the church , must be as large as the malady , offence : and so our purpose is gained ; for our purpose in that place is to prove this very thing , by this same instance of the offence of a nationall church ; wherein mr. rutherford we see doth come over to us , and affirms the same that we do . to what end therefore was it to make shew of removing or weakening what he had said , sith when it comes to the issue , he plainly concurs with us ? for by this means our tenent is not confuted , but confirmed with his attest thereto . 2. though here he saith , this remedy is not needfull in any church above a nationall , yet i am mistaken , if elsewhere he speak not otherwise . for in pag. 311. prepounding this objection , viz. christ here spe●keth of a present and constant removall of scandalls — a catholike councell of the whole visible church is farre of , and cannot be had , he returneth this for answer thereto : that christ , saith he , speaketh of a present and constant remedy only , and of no remedy against the scandall of whole churches , is denyed . he speaketh of all remedyes to gain any offenders , persons or churches . and in pag. 322. he saith , christ giveth an instance only in an offending brother ; but the doctrine is for the curing of an offending church also , and for all persons to be gained , thou hast gained thy brother : and saith he , we are to gain churches , as we are not to offend churches : 1 cor. 10. 32. again in his second pag. 332. speaking of five s●rts of synods , of which he cals the fifth the generall and oecuminick councell , he saith , that all these differ not in essence but in degrees , and what word of god , as matth 18. 16 , 17. proves the lawfulnes of one , is for the lawfulnesse of all the five sorts of synods . lastly , nothing can be more plain then those words pag. 39. this of our saviour , tell the church , is necessarily to be applyed to all churches and courts of christ , even to a catholike councell : ( the same is also to be seen in the peaceable plea p. 86. ) in all which sayings , he plainly understands the text we have in hand , to speak of a remedy , for all that are to be gained , yea a remedy for the offences of all persons and churches that may give offence ; which churches he saith may do , and expresly affirms that it is to be applyed to generall councels , and that necessarily : and how these things do agree , with the place in hind , where he saith , he denyes the remedie is needfull in any church above a nationall , let the wise and himself judge . for , for my part , except there be some difference between necessary and needfull , the sayings to me do seem inconsistent , one affirming the place is necessarily to be applyed to all churches and courts of christ , even to generall councells ; and the other denying that the remedy there mentioned is needfull in any church above a nationall 2. christs remedy , saith he , is a church remedy for offences among the brethren , and members of the visible church . and indians are nomembers of the visible church , and so being without they cannot be judged , 1 cor. 5. 12. answ . that indians cannot be judged by the church is very true , but nothing against us : for the very same that here is said by mr. rutherford , was said by us before , in the place which himself doth alledge , where we also brought the very same text of scripture which himself doth bring . now why should these things be brought as a confutation of us , which are nothing but a reception of that which we had delivered afore as our own judgement ? may not his reader be induced hereby to think that we had spoken otherwise ? but to let this passe . if indians cannot be judged by the church , then still our purpose is gained ; for by this it appeareth that an offence may be committed , where christs remedy , tell the church , may not be applyed for the redresse thereof ; and so that universall proposition , christs remedy is as large as the maladie , and where an offence may be committed , there to tell the church , is the remedy for the redresse of the same , which our brethren do lay as the foundation on which to build the jurisdiction of classes and synods , the universality , i say , of this proposition is utterly overthrown by this instance of indians ; and so that scripture , matth. 18. appears to be too weak a bottome , to bear the building which our brethren would erect upon it . nor is the matter much amended by that which our brother here brings for the helping and clearing of it , that christs remedy is a church remedy for offences among brethren members of the visible church . for let this be granted , as i know none that denies it , yet still the question remains , what is that church to which our saviour here gives power to remove and redresse scandals by excommunicating the offenders ? we conceive this church is only the particular congregation , and its presbytery ; and our brethren think it is also the classes and synods : but this apprehension of theirs is not confirmed by saying our saviours remedy is a church remedy for offences amongst members of the church , inasmuch as the members of a nationall church , as such are members of the visible church in our brethrens judgement , and yet our brother holds here is nor remedy prescribed for a delinquent nationall church . and if he can so understand this church remedy , as that for all this , the nationall church must not partake thereof , so as to be censured and excommunicated by any church above it , why may not others understand it so , as that synods and classes , yea and congregations too be exempted from the jurisdiction of churches ? for my part , i know no reason , but if the congregation be lyable to the censure of classes and synods by this scripture ; because our saviours remedy is a church remedy , by the same reason the classes and synods must be lyable to censure also ; yea , and the nationall church likewise , because this reason is applyable to all these as well as to the congregation . so that this notion of a church remedy doth not help his cause at all , nor hurt ours , any more then it hurts himself . if this reasoning be good , it is a church remedy , therefore the congregationall church must be lyable to censure for their offences , then this reasoning is as good , it is a church remedy , therefore the classes , synods , yea and the nationall church must be lyable to censure for their offences : but this latter at least , for the nationall church , our brother speaks against , and therefore he may not presse nor urge the former . if he or other shall say , that this scripture contains a remedy even for a nationall church , then it will follow that the jurisdiction of a nationall church is not independent , but depends upon the oecumenicall : but this our brother cannot say , unlesse he will gainsay himself , because he hath already said the contrary , and seriously protested it w●●h a verily , that verily be cannot see what power of jurisdiction to censure scandalls can be in a generall councell : onely a meer doctrinall power in all the power that he can see in such a councell , pag. 482. so that let him hold to what he hath thus seriously protested , and this rule of christ affords no remedy by way of censure for the scandalls of a nationall church . besides , if the jurisdiction of a generall councell be established by our saviour in this or other scriptures , then it will not only follow that the independent jurisdiction of nationall churches ; yea , and much more of classes and synods is overth●●wn , which i suppose our brethren will not grant , but moreover it will follow that christ hath not sufficiently provided church remedies for redressing scandal●s of church members : the reason of the consequence is , because all other jurisdictions being subordinate one to an●ther , and all of them under the jurisdiction of the generall councell , which alone is supream , there may therefore in all of them be appeals from the inferiour to the higher judicatories , till at the last ●atters and causes be transmitted from them all to the generall councell ; and so by this means matters shall or may never be ended , nor scandalls remedied , till a generall councell shall effect the same ; which generall councels all know are rare , and difficult to be attain● 〈◊〉 and therefore there were small sufficiency in our saviours remedy , if matters may or must depend till generall councels shall be assembled for the hearing and determining thereof , and may not be ended sconer . therefore we cannot see that this rule , nor any other , establisheth the jurisdiction of generall cou●cels ; and then nationall churches can have no benefit of our saviours remedy of , telling the church ; no more then the churches , which are congregationall ; and so whether is the saying universally true , that where there may be offence committed , there our saviours remedy of telling the church , may be applyed for the redresse thereof , nor doth this saying hold , being narrowed according to mr. rutherfords minde , who would have it understood onely of a church remedy , for the offences of church members . for we see there may be offences in churches , according to our brethrens judgement , which cannot be redressed by the help and remedy of this rule . chap. xxii . when the supream magistrate is a professed curing to religion , whether then it be likely and usuall that the greater part of the people are sincerely religious : and whether when the greater part are enemies with their magistrates , it be then the duty of a few that are sincere , to assemble in a nationall synod , and there to enter into a nationall covenant , and also to enjoyn the same unto that greater part . pag . 483. we say , that if the magistrate be an enemy to religion , may not the church without him conveen and renew a covenant with god ? mr. mather and mr. tompsons answer p. 29. that if the supream magistrate be an enemy to religion , it is not like , but most or many of the people will be of the same minde : regis ad exemplum totus — and then the 〈◊〉 in the land with not be able to beare the name of the land or nation , but of a small part thereof , not can it be well contained how they should assemble in a nationall synod , for that or any other purpose , when the magistrate is a professed enemy , nor doth god require it at their hands . answ . the question between mr. hefle and us , as it is spoken to , by us , in this passage , is still about the meaning of our saviours words , tell the church : which will plainly appear to him that shall look upon mr. herles treatise and our answer , and compare them together . and though we speak somthing of the churches renewing a a covenant with god , when the magistrate is an enemy to religion , yet the question lyes not meerly so and no further ; but first , this church is called the land or the whole church therein , or the whole number of beleevers . secondly , the thing inquired into concerning this church , is whether they have not power to enjoyn a solemn renewall of the covenant . in answer whereto we first of all say , that in case the magistrate be an enemy to religion , the beleevers in the land are not like to be so many , as that they should bear the name of the land or nation , but of a small part therein . second , that in such case , it is not like they can have such liberty as safely to meet in such great assemblies as nationall synods : and hereupon we conclude that renewing of covenant and enjoyning the same in national synods , being not in the power of som few beleevers in a land , is not then required at their hands . this being said for clearing the scope and summe of that passage in the answer , let us now hear what mr. rutherford saith thereto . this saith he , is a weak answer . answ . sat magistrabiter : would it not do well first to disprove and confute , and then to censure , rather then to censure first ? but if it be so weak , it will be more easie to overthrow it : let us hear therefore why it is so weak . the christians under nero were not like their prince : and it s not like , but sincere christians will be sincere christians and professe truth , even when the magistrate is an enemy . answ . and what of this ? doth this strongly overthrow that saying , which was censured for so weak ? if sincere christians be sincere christians , when the magistrate is an enemy , suppose as bad as nero , doth it follow thereupon , that in such times the sincere christians will be so many in number as to bear the names of the land or nation , where they are , ( for there lyes the question ) and that it is not like to be otherwise ? i suppose no man can justly affirm it . for were they so many in england in the dayes of queen mary ? were they so many in scotland in the dayes of popish princes , afore the reformation ? are they so many in spain , in italy , in turkey at this day ? doth not the scripture say , that when rehoboam , forsook the lord , all israel did the same with him ? 2 chron. 12. 1. and that ieroboam did not only sinne , but made israel to sinne ? and that when a ruler hearkneth to lyes , all his servants are wicked , prov. 29. vers . 12. which sayings and many more that might be alledged , besides common experience do abundantly witnesse , that when the supream magistrate is an enemy to religion , often times ( if not alwayes ▪ ) sincere beleevers in those dayes are the smaller part of that land . if m. rutherford can prove this apprehension weak , he must then prove the contradictory to be true , viz. that when the supream magistrate is an enemy to religion , it is not like that many of the people will be of the magistrates mind , but contrarily the greatest part of the land will be sincere beleevers , though the magistrate be an enemy . and when he hath confirmed this position which strong and convincing proofes ; he may then more freely take his liberty to condemne the other for weak : in the mean time , i think it were weaknesse in us to depart from this apprehension without some better grounds then yet are given to discover the weaknesse of it . 2. saith he , if your meaning be , it cannot be conceived how they should assemble in a nationall assembly , when the magistrate is an enemy , because it is not safe for feare of persecution , then you say nothing to the argument , because the argument is drawn from a duty . answ . are those things duties , which are in nature impossible ? if not , how is it a duty of a few beleevers in a land ( for when the magistrate is a professed enemy , i doe still conceive the beleevers in that land to be but few , a small part of the land ) how is it a duty , i say , for these few beleevers , in a land to assemble in a nationall synod , and there to enjoyn a nationall covenant , to be entered into , not onely by themselves , which are but a few in comparison , but also by the rest of the land which are farre the greater number ? if this be a duty , it is more then i yet understand ? suppose it be their duty to enter into covenant with god for their own part ; suppose also it were the duty of others to doe the like , yet when the greater part will not so doe , but are enemies to the truth of god like their magistrates , is it neverthelesse a duty of this smaller number to assemble in a nationall synod , and there to enjoyne a solemn covenant to be taken by the land ? i mean not onely by themselves ; but also by others , who are farre more in number then they ? do they fall short of their duty , if they do not thus assemble , and impose the covenant ? in the dayes of ieroboam , when the generality of the land walked after his wicked commandement , hos . 5. 11. who made israel to sin , yet then there were some in israel who retained their integrity , and set their hearts to seek the lord , who also for that end came to ierusalem , to sacrifice to the lord god of their fathers , 2 chron. 11. v. 16. but i doe not remember that these few that were sincere in worship , did ever come together in a nationall assembly in israel , to renew the covenant with god , and to enjoyn the same to that great multitude of the backslyding israelites , nor that such a duty was required of them , nor that they are blamed by 〈◊〉 lord , nor any of his prophets for the neglect thereof . and the case we have in stand is the same . if you mean that because the princes power is against the synodicall meeting , this is nothing against the power of the synods that christ hath given to his church . answ . we mean as we have said , that those few beleevers in a land , being overpowered with the prince and people that are enemies , therefore this assembling of those few in a nationall synod , and there enjoyning a nationall covenant is now not in their power , and so not required at their hands . if your meaning be that , it is not lawfull to them to conveen in a nationall synod to renew a covenant with god , against the supreame magistrates will ; i hope you minde no such thing . answ . if it be our meaning , how can it be hoped that we do not mind it ? can our ●●●●ing be one thing , and our mind another ? but for his satisfaction and resolution , 〈◊〉 plain answer is this , that we neither had mind nor meaning to medle at all with that question ; whether churches may assemble in nationall synods against the supreame magistrates will. for we did not think that mr. herles treatise did lead us thereunto : 〈…〉 such a matter . nor am i willing at this time to turn aside to the same , but to keep close to my scope and ayme , which is to consider of mr. rutherford his exceptions against the answer . and therefore for his discourse , which here he fals upon , maintaining at large against malignants , and namely against tho : fuller , that the reformation begun in scotland and prosecuted in england , against the kings will is lawful● and warrantable by the word● this discourse , i say , being altogether concerning others , and not us ; i will therefore passe it over , and come to that wherein our selves are concerned . chap. xxiii . whether the word church be not given to a single congregation , and whether a congregation be a company or church , meeting only for word and sacraments , and not for any other spirituall duties : and whether the divers duties , 1. of word and sacraments . 2. of discipline , &c. must needs argue divers churches . pag . 489. the name church , 1 cor. 14. 4 , 5 , 35. 27 , 28. is plainly given to that company that did assemble and come together for performance of spirituall duties , and for the exercise of spirituall gifts , as act. 14. 27. and 11. 26. and 15. 4. 22. 30. and 1 cor. 11. 18 , 20 , 22 , 23 , 3 john 6. which places do abundantly shew , that a company gathered together in one place , is called by the name of a church , as centhera , rom. 16. 1. which could not contain many congregations , being but the part of corinth . and for this passage he alledgeth the answer . pag. 32. answ . mr. herle having said , that the scripture never useth the word church for a single congregation , unlesse happily , 1 cor. 14. and that many congregations in one province or city are frequently called by the name of a church , we in answer to the former of these doe give many instances , p. 31 , 32. where a single c●●●regation is called by the name of a church , not onely in 1 cor. 14. which mr. herle acknowledgeth ( though with a perhaps ) but also in sundry other scriptures , which here mr. rutherford quoteth . now let us heare his answer to this passage . wee seek no more , saith he . answ . are we then agreed , that in scripture language the word church is sundry times given to a single congregation ? if so , then for this point the answer is not confuted but confirmed . if it be called a church which conveeneth for performance of spirituall duties , as some of your places doe well prove , ergo , no assembly should have the name of church , but such as assemble for word and sacraments , this now you cann●t affirm and it followeth not . answ . if this follow not , what needs it ? we never affirmed it , and our purpose that the word church is given in scripture to a single congregation , is sufficiently gained without it . the church spoken of matth. 18. is not assembled to word and sacraments , but to binde and loose : the meeting 1 cor. 5. is not for word and sacraments , but to deliver to satan ; the word church act. 14. 27. is not an assembly for word and sacraments , but to hear how god hath opened the doore of faith unto the gentiles . — if to be received of the church , act. 15. 4. be matter of word and sacraments , let all judge : if to send a decree of a synod , act. 15. 22. be the act of a church assembled for word and sacraments , let the world judge . answ . reverend sir , keep to the point , we never said that discipline , and all other acts , whether performed by a church , are word and sacraments : and therefore there was no need to prove they are not , and then to triumph as in a great victory : the thing in question is this , whether the name or word church , be given in scripture to a single congregation : and if this be proved ( as the instances given , i hope , do prove it sufficienly ) then it matters not what that particular spirituall church action is , for which they do meet : for whether it be that they meet for word and sacraments alone ; or whether it be for the word and prayer alone , and not at that time for sacraments at all , or whether it be for discipline , or for any other church duty , yet still if they come together into one place , be it for all or for any of these ends , they are then a congregation , ( for what is a congregation but a company so assembled in one place ) and so our tenet stands good , and our purpose is gained : for if they that come together into one place for church actions and ends , be called in scripture by the name of a church , then the word church is given to a company that so came together ; and such a company being a congregation , it follows that the word church is used for a congregation . what this congregation doth when they are come together , is not the question : but if a congregation coming together for church duties be in scripture called a church , we have our intent . if the word church , be a meeting of persons assembled to one place for spirituall duties , sometimes for word and sacraments onely , sometimes for acts of jurisdiction onely , then is the word church by our brethrens argument taken both for the congregation , and for the elders of one , or of divers churches , and so we have our intent . answ . let the antecedent be granted , yet the consequence is denied : for the word church may be a meeting assembled , sometimes for word and sacraments onely , and sometimes for acts of jurisdiction only , and i adde , sometimes for the word and prayer only , without exercise of jurisdiction or sacrament , and somtimes for some other act or acts , then any of these that are named , and yet for all this , it may not be taken for the elders alone of one church , and much lesse for the elders of divers churches ; the reason is , because all these acts may be performed by the congregation assembling sometimes for one of them , and sometimes for another . and therefore your intent is not yet attained ; who would have the word church to be taken somtimes for the congregation , and sometimes for the presbyters or elders alone ? we desire our brethren to prove ( which they must if they oppose our principles ) that the word church is never taken for the eldership alore , in all the word of god. answ . must we prove a negative : and is that saying , affirmanti incumbit ●●us probandi , now become unreasonable , unnecessary , or of no force ? for my part i am still of the mind , that he that affirms , must in equity and reason prove what he affirms . besides for our selves we have this to say further , that if we prove what we undertook , we have done as much as can in reason be required of us , though we do not prove this that mr. rutherford would impose upon us : and what was that which we undertook to prove ? nothing in this place , but onely this , that the word church is taken for a congregation , in other scriptures besides , 1 cor. 14. and this we have performed and proved already . mr. rutherford himself allowing some of our proofs for good : and therefore having performed this point , it is more then needs to be required of us , to prove another also , which we never undertook to prove , as being quite besides our question , which we were and still are desirous to keep close unto , and not to wonder or be diverted from it by any means . whereas our brethren say , a company gathered into one place ( which is nothing else but a congregation ) are called by the name of a church , i answer such a company is only ( i suppose this is misprinted , for is not onely ) called by the name of a church , for a company meeting for discipline only , is a church also . answ . if a company gathered into one place , which is a congregation , be called by the name of a church , this is as much as we desire : for our tenent is herein expresly granted to be true : if a company meeting for discipline onely be a church also , yet as long as the former is not denyed , the adding of this other doth no hurt to us at all . it is false that a company gathered into one place , are nothing else but a congregation . answ . bona verba quaso : we had thought that as a company assembled , is an assembly , a company met , is a meeting , a company convocated , a convocation ; so a company gathered together or congregated , had been a congregation : but this is peremptorily now condemned as false : yet let us hear why . as you take the word congregation : for so your congregation is an assembly of men and women meeting for word and sacraments , with the elders of the church . answ . and what if they meet for prayer also , what if for the word and prayer without sacraments , for this or that time ? what if they meet for the admission of members also , or for censuring delinquents ? can mr. rutherford prove that either of us , i mean either mr. tompson or my self , or indeed any man else of that judgement , which he opposeth , have denyed an assembly meeting for such ends , as these to be a congregation ? i suppose he cannot : and therefore it was not well done to impute unto us such a sence of the word congregation , as we never spake nor thought of , and then to say , it is false that a company gathered into one place is a congregation , as that word is taken by us . i appeale to the judgement of our reverend brethren , if the church , matth. 18. assembled to to bind and loose , if the church assembled , 1 corin. 5. to deliver to satan , ( and sundry others are there named to the like purpose ) be a congregationall church assembled for word and sacraments . answ . if the word and sacraments be not mentioned in the places alledged , but other actions and duties , must it needs follow that the churches spoken of in these places did assemble for word and sacraments ? may not one and the same church assemble for diverse ends and actions ? yea , possibly for diverse upon one day ? at the least wise it cannot be denyed , but at severall times of assembling a church may attend to diverse duties and actions , and yet still be one and the same congregation or church , at one time which they were at another . or otherwise we must say ( which were a very unwise saying ) that a church meeting for diverse actions to be performed upon one day , as the word , prayer , psalms , sacraments , &c. is not the same church is one of these actions , that it was in another , but is one church when they are at prayer , another when they are singing psalms , another when they are in exercise of the word or sacraments , &c. or if they meet one day , for word and sacraments , and another day for word and prayer without sacraments , that n●w they are diverse churches , and not the same upon one of these dayes , that they were upon another , the nature and kind of their church being altered according to the severall duties wherein they are exercised . this arguing i suppose mr. rutherford , would not own for good , and yet for ought i see , it is no worse , but the very same with that which himself doth here use , who because the church mentioned matth. 18. 1 corinth . 5. and other places by him named , is said to meet for discipline or other duties , would thereupon have it thought , that the church mentioned in those places was not a church that did ever meet for word and sacraments , but was some other church of another kinde : which arguing may be good , if these which i have here above expressed be good , but otherwise i conceive it cannot stand . chap. xxiv . whether those children of israel , numb . 8. 10. who laid hands on the levites , were elders by office , and as so considered , did lay on their hands . and whether this scripture do not prove that where there are no elders to be had , there some principall members , though not elders by office , may impose hands on church officers . the children of israel which were not the church officers laid hands on the levites , numb . 8. 10. therefore when a church hath no elders , the people may conferre ordination , and it is not to be tyed to the presbyters only : and for this be alledgeth the answer . pag. 46. and then he addeth , that other of our brethren say , ordination is but accidentall to a ministers calling , and may be wanting if the people shall chuse , in defect of elders , pag. 491. answ . this latter clause should not have been added , as deserving a confutation , except our brother would confute himself : for as we heard afore , himself doth plainly affirm pag. 186 , 187. that both are true pastors , those who have no call , but the peoples election , and those who have ordination by pastors ; and that election by the people only may stand for ordination , where there be no pastors at all : which if it be so ; why should the same thing in effect when it is holden by others , be here inserted in an objection as worthy to be spoken against , when himself doth cast the very same ? it is marvell that our reverend brother should thus go on in representing our words and mind amisse : for as here he sets down the objection under our name , some of our words are changed and altered , others being substituted in their place , some are wholly suppressed as if there had been none such , and others are added as 〈◊〉 which never came from us : of the first sort , are those of the peoples conferring ordination ; wheras our words are not so , but that the people may impose or lay on hands . now between these two himself pag. 492. doth make a great difference , even as much as between the authoritative calling of a minister , and a rite annexed to that calling : and further saith , that though he think imposition of hand● not so essentiall perhaps , at that a minister can be no minister without it , yet of ordination he thinks otherwise , and if he make so great a difference between imposition of hand● and ordination , why should our words be forsaken which import the lesser matter in his judgement , and those other which he accounts do import much more , be substituted in the room ? was this to burden our opinion or apprehension with a greater odium then our words in his own judgement will beare ? or was it to make his confutation of us more easie , then it would have been , if our own words had been retained and kept ? what ever was the cause hereof , we cannot but think it had been better if it had been otherwise . for omitting and suppressing some words of ours ( which was the second particular ) i alledge those of the time and places where elders cannot co●veniently be borrowed from any other church : the whole passage is this : viz. by which , scripture , ( to wit num. 8. 10. ) thus much is manifest , that when a ch●rch hath no elders , but the first elders themselves are to be ordained , and this at such times and in such places , where elders cannot conveniently be borrowed from any other churches , in such case imposition of hands may lawfully be performed by some principall men of the congregation , although they be not elders by office : in which place , these words , at such times ●nd in such places , &c. though they contain a great part of the case , wherein we think imposition of hands may be performed by non-elders , yet they are wholy concealed by mr. rutherford , as if there had been none such ; for what purpose , himselfe best knows . but this is apparent , that by his concealment or omission , the way is made more easie and the ground more rati●n●ll for that passage of his in the following page , where he saith , what if there be no elders in a single congregation ? it will not follow therefore the people are to lay on hands , except saith he , there were no elders in the land , or nationall church to lay on hands . now had our words been delivered and set down by him as they came from us , this speech and passage of his would have been uselesse , and apparently brought in without cause : for to what purpose should he bring in this exception , saying , except there be no elders in the land &c. when our selves had prevented him in this , by putting such an exception expresly into the prohibition , which we deduce and gather from that scripture of numb . 8. 10. sure this had not needed , but might have been spared , if our words had been fully related : but by this omission and concealement , his own speech hath more appearance of ground and reason in it , then otherwise it would have had , and our apprehension doth not appear to his reader as indeed it is , nor as himself received it from us in that our answer . which we have reason to take somwhat unkindly from him , and the rather because it is not only once , but twise at the least , that we have thus expressed our selves in that answer : once in the words which i have here above repeated and transcribed , and again in pag. 49. where speaking again of this same scripture , numb . 8. v. 10. we say thus , that we have shewed from that scripture , that if there be no elders as at the first , nor any that can conveniently be gotten from other churches , then imposition of hands may lawfully be performed by others : neverthelesse though we have thus expressed our selves , once and a second time , yet m. rutherford doth not once give notice hereof unto his reader , for ought that i can find ; but still passing by these words of borrowing elders from other churches , doth take advantage of the want thereof , which indeed are not wanting in our churches , which he deals against , but twise at the least are plainly expressed therein , and would not have been wanting in this passage , which here he sets down as ours , if himself had not concealed and suppressed the same . now to leave out those words of ours , which we have plainly expressed two severall times at the least , and then to make advantage for himselfe against us for want thereof , whether this be not such measure as we have cause to take unkindly , let himself and others consider . the third particular of adding words which never came from us , i will briefly passe over , because it is of lesse moment , as not so much misrepresenting our meaning ; yet i conceive those words , it ( by ordination ) is not to be tyed to the presbytery alone , which here are presented to the reader as ours , are not at all to be found in our writing : but i will not insist on this , but come to consider of his answer . there is not , saith he , a place in all the word of god , where people conser●e ordination to the pastors of the new testament , therefore our brethren flee to the old testament to prove it from the levites , who received imposition of bands from the children of israel . answ . we have given a reason , why no such scripture can be expected in the new testament , viz. because in those times elders were not wanting ; for there were the apostles and apostolike men , who were elders in all churches : and say we , we do willingly grant , that where elders are not wanting , imposition of hands is to be performed by the elders : ans . p. 49. now for our brethren to require of us an example of imposition of hands performed without elders in the apostles times , in which times there were elders to be had , this we think to be unreasonable , first it is our opinion , that when elders are to be had , imposition of hands is not to be performed without those elders , but by them . moreover , if it be such a disparagement to our cause , that the scripture of the new testament affords no example of imposition of hands by the people , how will mr. rutherford free his own way from another objection , which we think as sore and weighty against the same , as this which they think of so much weight against us ? the objection i mean is this , that there is not any place in all the scripture of the new testament , where ordinary pastors or elders imposed hands on ordinary pastors or elders ; but all the examples in scripture concerning this matter are such , where either the persons imposing , or the persons on whom hands were imposed , or both , were officers of extraordinary note and degree , such as now are not extant in the church , but are ceased long again : not that i deny , but an argument may be taken from those examples for imposition of hands in these dayes : but the thing i stand upon is this , that no example can be given from scripture directly parallel , to the way which our brethren in these dayes do practise and allow , but some dissonancy will be found therein : from their way as well ( and perhaps as much ) as from the way of imposition of hands performed by the people in some cases : let them tell us of act. 6. v. 6. and 14. 23. and 1. tim. 5. 22. and we answer the persons imposing hands in those places were apostles and evangelists , such as our brethren are not , nor do so account themselves . let them name act. 13. 3. and 1 tim. 4. 14. and we answer , the persons on whom hands were there laid were the like , even apostles and evangelists , whatever the imposers were , and therefore neither will these places perfectly suit the case ▪ so that if we could give no example in the new testament of imposition of hands performed in some cases by the people , we think mr. rutherford and out brethren of his way might be favourable to us for their own sake . yet for the justification of our way , and for further answer to this passage of mr. rutherford , we have this to say further , that an example in the old testament of a practise not abolished in the new as ceremoniall , typicall , or of some peculiar reason specially concerning those times and peoples , but of morall equity and reason ; such an example we think a sufficient warrant unto us , for the like practise upon the like occasion in these dayes : this i thinke mr rutherford must acknowledge , for else he shall loose many arguments which he frequently useth in this treatise , from the example of asa , hezekiah , josiah , and others in the old testament , for the proving of things to be practised in the new : and else himself and we all shall loose the argument for pedobaptisme which is taken from circumcision . yea , and which is more , if it were not thus , the apostles arguing would not be strong , who do frequently argue from the examples of the old testament to confirm and prove truth and vertue , and to reprove and to condemn the contra●y in the new : to instance in no more but 1 cor. 9. 10. 2. heb. 3. 24. which examples , together with that saying , rom. 15. 4. whatsoever was written in former time , was written for our learning ; and many more that might be alledged , do abundantly and plainly prove the point in hand : and therefore mr. rutherford should bear with us , if we somtimes argue from examples of the old testament . as for that which followeth , where he saith , but our brethren hold that the calling of the levites and of the pastors of the new testament are different , as the officers and churches of the jewish and christian churches are different ; the answer is , that i do not remember that we have spoken one word of this matter , either one way or other ; nor doth he mention any place where we have spoken ought of these things . and for the thing it selfe , though many differences may be assigned between the levites and pastors of the new testament , and between the jewish and christian churches , yet i know no such difference between them , but that in things which are of generall and common nature concerning them both , in those we may lawfully argue from them and their times , unto our selves and our times . if mr. rutherford know we have given any such difference as will not suffer us thus to argue , when he shall expresse the same , we may consider further thereof . our brethren grant pag. 49. that it wanteth all example in the new testament that the people lay on hands . answ . and we have also in the same pag. 49. rendred the reason hereof , viz. because elders then were not wanting : why then did not our brothers ingenuity so farre prevaile with him as to mention this , when he mentioned the other ? however yet this he may be pleased to observe , that as we grant the thing he speaks of , so themselves , i think must grant also , that it wanteth all example in the new testament , where ordinary elders do impose hands on ordinary elders : for my part i remember none , nor do i remember that themselves have yet produced any . these who laid on hands on the levites numb . 8. were elders , and our brethren say it is like they were ; but 1. they did not as elders : 2. but as representing the people ; not as elders civill , for that belonged to aaron and his sonnes , levit. 8. else it will follow that where a church hath no magistrates to lay on hands , there the church may doe it : nor did they lay on hands as ecclesiasticall elders , because what these which laid on hands did , they did as from the congregation : for 1. these levites were taken in stead of the first born of israel , and not instead of the first born of the elders only , numb . 3. 40 , 41. 2 they were presented to the lord as an offering of the children of israel , not of the elders onely . 3. when the multitude brought an oblation , the elders put their hands on the heads of the sacrifice , levit. 4. 15. instead of all the multitude . answ . in relating this passage , our meaning is exceedingly mistaken , and both our meaning and our words represented farre amisse unto the reader : the particulars which in this respect may be excepted against , are such as these . 1. that reporting us to say , it is like they who laid on hands were elders , he there breaks off the speech ; and so suppresseth that which follows ; wherein we first of all do give an explication in what respect they might be said to be elders , viz. as being the chiefe and principall members of the congregation ; and next of all we do adde , that neverthelesse therein example doth prove the point , if two things be considered which there we do expresse . but both these particulars , i mean , both the explication and the addition or exception , are wholly suppressed by mr. rutherford , and so the concession ; it is like they were elders , is left standing alone by it selfe . 2. he reports us to say , they did it not as elders civill : for that belonged to aaron and his sons ; wherein he fathers on us a palpable errour , of accounting aaron , and his sonnes to be elders civill , or magistrates , which never came into our thoughts : nay it was so farre from us that we plainly said the contrary , in that very place , to wit , that they were elders ecclesiasticall . our words are these , if they , ( that is , the children of israel ) did it as elders , then either as elders and governours ecclesiasticall , or as civill governours : but not the first , for that charge belonged to aaron and his sonnes : levit. 8. and these levites now ordained . in which words we plainly ascribe to aaron and his sonnes the charge of elders and governours ecclesiasticall , but not of civill governours , as mr. rutherford , is pleased to report . 3. in these words , else it will follow , that where a church hath no magistrates to lay on hands , there the church may do it ; our words are so miserably mangled , that no tolerable sence can appeare : for here is expressed an inference or consequence , that must follow , and yet no ground or antecedent at all from which it should follow , which is to represent us to the world as men that were loesi cerebro . for men that were in their right wits , i conceive , would scarcely ever argue in this fashion , as here we are reported to do : but our words are these , if the second be said , viz. that the children of israel did lay on hands as civill governours , then it will follow that civill magistrates , though no church-officers may impose hands in ordination of church-officers , and so the point is gained : ( viz. that church-officers may be ordained by those that are no church-officers ) which we do further manifest in the following words in this manner : if the magistrate may doe it , then it will follow that a church that hath no magistrate may perform this action by other the fittest instrument● she hath ; for which we there give this ground , for that this is not a work properly tyed to the magistrates office , because then the church in the apostles times wanting magistrates , could not have had officers ; the contrary whereof we say is manifest in the scriptures , act. 14. 13. tit. 1. 5. this is our manner of arguing in the place alledged , which is farre different from that which mr. rutherford reporteth as ours . 4. whereas he reports us to say , nor did they lay on hands as ecclesiasticall elders , because what these which lay on hands did , they did as from the congregation ; in this he also reports us to speak quite besides our plain meaning and expresse words . for whereas , he so sets down this sentence , as that the latter clause or branch therein is made the reason of the former ; the truth is this , that these clauses in the answer , have no dependance the one upon the other at all ; but the former hath another reason given for it , which here is not mentioned , and the latter which is here mentioned as the reason of the former is not so mentioned by us , but for another end and purpose . touching the former of these two , when we said that the children of israel , did not impose hands on the levites as ecclesiasticall elders , the reason we give for this saying is this , because that charge was onely belonging to aaron and his sonnes , and those levites now ordained : which reason mr. rutherford never mentions , but mentions another speech , as our reason , which was delivered by us for another purpose . the like measure doth he afford to us in the second branch of the sentence by him expressed : for whereas we give two reasons of the main thing in question , that this example of the children of israel , imposing hands on the levites doth prove that in some cases , non-officers may impose hands upon church officers , the one because what these children of israel did , they did it not as elders ; the other that what they did , they did it not for themselves alone , but for all the congregation , mr. rutherford applies not these two reasons to the thing in question as they were applyed by us , but instead thereof makes one of them to be a reason of the other , which was no part of our meaning , nor could justly be gathered from our words . this being said for clearing this passage of ours from his manifold mistakes , let us now heare his answer . pag. 49● . these who laid on hands did it as a work peculiar to the elders , because the elders were a part of the first borne , who by office were elders , and in whose stead the levites were assumed , numb . 3. 40 , 41. answ . if the elders were but a part of the first born , then how could all the first born be elders by office ? or if all the first born were by office elders , then how could the elders be but a part of the first born ? these things seem not to be here . but be it so , that the elders were a part of the first born as here is affirmed , how doth this prove that they who laid on hands did it as a work peculiar to the elders ? is there any necessary or clear consequence in such a proposition ? for my part , i see it not : but on the contrary , i suppose it is certaine , that the elders might be part or all of the first born , and yet they who did the work of imposing hands might neither impose as elders , nor of necessity be elders . though in the sense expressed in the answer , i will not deny but there might be elders , that is chiefe and principall members of the congregation . but if this were granted in the sense expressed , must it needs follow that they imposed hands as elders , and as elders by office too ? can a man sustain no relation , but all his actions must be actions of that relation ? cannot a man be an husband , or a parent , &c. but his actions of plowing sowing , &c. must needs be performed by him , as he is a husband , or parent ? cannot a minister pray in his family , instruct his children , or receive the bread and wine in the lords supper in the congregation , but all these things must be performed by him as a minister ? i suppose that none will say that this doth follow : and if not , then suppose that these who imposed hands were elders , how doth it follow , that when they imposed hands , they did impose as elders ? else the church of israel being a constituted church before this time wanted officers , which is against all truth . answ . else , else what ? let the antecedent or ground of this inference be taken from the words preceding , or from any of them ( and whence else to take it i cannot tell ) and no necessity of consequence i think will appear . the words preceding are no more but these , these who laid on hands , did it as a worke peculiar to the elders , because the elders were a part of the first born , who by office were elders , and in whose steed the levites were assumed , and then comes in this inference , else the church of israel wanted officers . now how this must needs follow upon any or all of those preceding , i see not . not that i deny the truth of all those preceding words , for of some of them i think otherwise , but supposing that were all true , which is more then doth yet appeare , yet here is that which i am doubtfull in , whether this inference must needs follow upon the same ? for ought i see , the church of israel might have officers , and yet the particulars here mentioned not be all true , but some of them false notwithstanding . at least wise if they were true , yet the reason here used would not inferre so much . for , to consider a little of the particulars : the church of israel had officers , ergo , the elders were a part of the first born ( which is one of the particulars ) the church of israel had officers ; ergo the first born were elders by office ; ( which is another ) the church of israel had officers : ergo , the levites were assumed instead of the first born ( which is another of them ) is there any necessity of consequence in any of these ? for my part i see it not : but suppose they were in themselves true , yet , the medium here used doth not proove them so to be . and for that which is the first , and as i conceive the cheif , to wit , that these who imposed hands did it as a work peculiar to elders , must this needs be granted , if it be granted , that the church of israel was not without officers ? i see no necessity of granting this neither , but the contrary to me seems possible enough , that thee might be officers afore this time in that church ; and yet what was now done by them who imposed hands , not be done by them , as elders by office , but as prime and principall members of the congregation . for the clearing whereof a little further , we may observe that they who imposed hands on the levites are not here called elders , nor rulers , nor officers , nor first born , nor any such like , but the term whereby they are expressed is this , the children of israel ; the children of israel , saith the lord , shall put their hands upon the levites , numb . 8. 10. now this term being used in the 9. verse imediately preceding , and in the 11. vers . imediately following , yet in neither of both can it be meant of elders and officers alone , but in both verses is undoubtedly meant of all the body of the congregation : and therefore if the context and circumstances of the place be regarded , these children of israel , who imposed hands on the levites , v. 10. cannot in that act be considered under the not●on of officers . sure it is when the verse before tells us that the whole assembly of the children of israel must be gathered together , and the verse following tells us that aaron must offer the levites for an offering of the children of israel ; in neither of these can the children of israel be understand of the officers alone , but the whole congregation is meant hereby in both verses : reason therefore requires that this tenth verse standing in the midst between the other two , the word children of israel , being used therein should be taken in the same sense in this verse , in which it is taken in the verse before , and in the verse that comes after . nay and further , he that shall peruse this chapter numb . 8. may easily finde that this word , the children of israel is used therein no lesse then fifteen or sixteen severall times ; and sometimes foure or five times in one verse ; and yet of all these , i think here is not so much as one , where it can be understood of the elders and officers as such , but is used to signifie all the congregation . and therefore to give such a singular interpretation of this word , in v. 10. so far different from the sense of the same word , in all the rest of the verses both before and after , and those being not only one or two , but so very many ; this kind of practise and interpretation had need to be builded upon very plain and pregnant , very cleare and cogent reason and demonstration , or else our brethren may excuse us if we be not over hasty and forward to receive it . again , the ninth and eleventh verses tell us plainly , that these levites were to be offered to the lord for an offering , not of the elders alone , but of the children of israel , even of all the assembly of the children of israel , and other scriptures tell us as plainly that all offerings were to be presented with the imposition of his hands , whose the offering was , levit. 1. 3 , 4 , and 4. 24 , 29 , 33. whereby it seems evident , that these children of israel , who imposed hands on these levites , at this time when they were offered for an offering , were the whole congregation or some in your name and stead , sith these levites were an offering of the whole congregation . wee grant the magistrates laid not on hands , but they who laid on hands , did it as ecclesiasticall elders . reconcile this with that pag. 188 l. 1. where t is said , the princes and heads of tribes laid hands on them : now what were these princes and heads of tribes , but magistrates ? and if they were princes and magistrates how could they be considered in this act as ecclesiasticall elders ? the reasons against this conclude not . the first reason concludeth not . ans . here again our meaning is presented amisse to the reader ; for those three reasons of ours were given by us to prove another point , and not this to which mr. rutherford , applyes therein , as is plainly to be seen in answer , pag. 46 , 47. where the reader may perceive that those reasons were brought to shew , that when the children of israel imposed hands , if these children of israel were not all the congregation , yet what they performed herein was for the congregation , and not for themselves onely : and if those reasons prove this , as i hope they doe ; it is no great disparagement to them not us , if they prove not another point for which they were never intended . but let us hear the answer . the first reason concludeth not , because those who laid on hands were the first born , who by office were church-men . answ . how shall we be sure that those who laid on hands were the first born ? though i deny it not , yet a bare affirmation proves not . again , suppose what here is affirmed were also sufficiently confirmed , how is the point in question proved hereby ? for , say they were the first born , they might notwithstanding do what they did for all the people , and not for themselves above . the other two reasons proves nothing . answ . let them be applyed to the thing , whereto they were intended and applyed by us , and then let the reader judge . the position was , that those who imposed hands on the levites , did it for the congregation or in their stead . the first of the two reasons is , that the levites were the congregations offerings , and all offerings were to be presented with the imposition of his hands , whose the offering was : the other is this , that it was an usuall thing when the congregation were to present an offering , that the elders should impose hands on the congregations offering , in the congregations stead , levit. 4. vers . 14 , 15. now let the prophets judge , whether these reasons prove what they were brought to prove , to wit , that they who imposed hands on the levites did it for , or in stead of the congregation : or whether it be as our reverend brother affirms , that these two reasons proves nothing : yet let us hear why they prove nothing . because these who laid on hands , did lay on hands as representing the whole congregation . alas it doth no wayes conclude that they laid not on hands , as it is a worke peculiar to them 〈◊〉 elders . ans . if it doe not , yet if our reasons do conclude that they did it instead of the congregation , we have our intent : but to follow mr. rutherford a little in digressing from the point ; why , do not our reasons conclude this other ? the high-priest offered sacrifice , first for his own sins , and then for the peoples ; heb. 7. v. 27. and so did represent the people ; but i hope it followeth not that therefore the priest did not sacrifice as a priest , and by virtue of a peculiar office , but only as a principall member of the congregation . answ . mr. rutherford himself gives us a distinction which may be sufficient for answer to this passage . a representer , saith he , standeth for another either objectively or subjectively . the former of these is he that doth a busines for another , or in rem ejus , for his behalf and good , as the eye seeth and the eare heareth for the whole body ; and thus objectively the presbytery doth represent the people , that is , for your good and salvation of the people . the other representing another subjectively is when the representer hath its power from that which it representeth , as he who carrieth the room and person of a king as an ambassadour : but thus , saith he , the presbytery or eldership doth not represent the people . due right of presbyt . p. 316 , 317. now as the presbytery represents the people , so may it be said of the priest , viz. that he represented the people only objectively , for their good , but not subjectively in their room and stead , and therefore the cases are not alike ; for we think that what was done by those who imposed hands , numb . 8. was not only done for the good of the children of israel , but also in their room and stead , which he will not say of the priest sacrificing for the people , having already said the contrary of the presbytery . pag. 493. you will say , in a church , in an iland , one may be a pastor without any ordination if the people elect him , and there be no elders to ordain ; i answer it is true . answ . if this be true , then what becomnes of that which was said in the precedent page , that though imposition of hands be not so essentiall , as that a minister can be no minister without it , yet for ordination it is otherwise , this being the authoritative calling of a minister , and the other but a rite annexed to the calling . in which place he counts ordination so essentiall , as that a minister can be no minister without it , and yet in the very next page confesseth , as we see , that in some case one may be a pastor without ordination : whereupon it must needs follow either that one may be a pastor without any authoritative calling or else that ordination is in effect , but the same with imposition of hands , and so there is no such difference between them as is pretended . but so many pastors send a pastor to a congregation , though that congregation never chuse him . answ . take your own words for answer pag. 496. we never read that in the apostles church a man was obtruded upon the people against their will and therefore election by the people in the apostolike church as act. 1. 26. act. 6. 2 , 3 , 4. rev. 2. 1 , 2. act. 20. v. 28. must be our rule . any election without the peoples consent must be no election , for if it please not the whole multitude as act. 6. 5. it is not a choise . and in pag. 465. he tells us that all incorporations have power by the law of nature to chuse their own rulers and officers , and that christ hath provided the same in an eminant manner for his church . and therefore for this passage that many pastor may send a pastor to be pastor to a congregation , though that congregation never choose him , we desire that he would take his own money for payment . chap. xxv . whether a ministers calling consist in election or in imposition of hands , and whether of those is greater , and whether is prior or posterior . whether , 1 tim. 4. 14. act. 6. 2 , 3 , 4. act. 13. 1 , 2 , 3. do prove that the ministers calling consists in imposition of hands by the presbytery , and that such imposition of hands is not a consumatory rite , or benedictory signe . also whether rom. 10. 15. do prove that a man cannot be a minister except some presbytery ordain him afore the people chuse him , and whether otherwise the people doe send a minster to themselves : and whether the people of god may not aswell discern a mans fitnes to be ordained as his fitnes to be elected . pag . 493. if the people may elect officers , then in some cases they may ordaine them also , because ordination is lesse then election , and dependeth upon it as a necessary antecedent , and it is nothing but a consummation of election , or the admission of a person into the possession of that office , whereto he had right before by election . if then a single congregation may elect , which is the greater , they may ordain , which is the lesse . and for this he alledgeth the answer pag. 46 , 47. and then gives answer thereto in these words , ordination is the more and election the lesser ; for ordination is an act authoritative of the presbytery , 1. tim. 4. 14. answ . take ordination as we take it for imposition of hands on a church officer , and then we think it is lesse then election , as being but a rite or ceremony used at a ministers entrance into his office , but not at all of the essence thereof . nor are we alone , or the first that have so thought : for to omit others , he that wrote the book , called the unbishoping of timothy and tytus affirmeth pag. 114. that it is no essentiall , but a ceremoniall part of ordination , which may be sufficiently made without it , and saith that angelus de clavasio , peter martyr and others both papists and protestants affirm the same . and in pag. 116. he saith it is an act of service or ministery , not of authority , and no more then an externall complement or ceremony , alledging dr. ames & others for the same tenent . but now election is more then a ceremony that may be omitted , mr. rutherford himself being judge : for in his pag. 496. he tells us , that in the apostolike churches , a minister was never obtruded upon the people against their will , but that they still had the election of their ministers , and this he saith must be our rule , so that any election without the peoples consent must be no election , for if it please not the whole multitude it is not a choise . and in p. 202. he tells us out of chrysostome that all election of pastors is null without the consent of the people . whereby it seems that election is something essentiall ; and so consequently more then imposition of hands , which is but a rite or ceremony , which may be absent , and yet a man have all the essentialls of a minister notwithstanding . as for 1 tim. 4. 14. the imposition of hands of the presbytery there spoken of , i conceive , could not be any act of superior authority but onely an approbatory signe or rite which might be used by inferiours towards your superiours . for timothy being an evangelist , how could any ordinary presbytery have authority over him , or give office or authority to him ? besides it is not said that timothy received his gift by the laying on of the hands of the presbytery , but by the prophesie , and by the laying on of pauls hands , and with the laying on the hands of the presbytery . now between those two phrases , by the laying on of hands , and with the same , there is great difference , the one importing some cause or authority or power , the other importing no more but an approbatory rite , or a signe used in a solemne commending of one to god by prayers : altare damascen . pag. 161. of which more is to be seen in the plea for the churches in new england part of the second chap. 12. quest . 2 , 4. for ought i see the authors might argue thus , the people may ordaine : ergo , they may preach and baptise , for all the three are presbyteriall acts given to men in office. answ . we read in mornay de ecclesia chap. ● . that of old time it was an argument rise in the church , he may baptise , he may administer the lords supper ; ergo , he may lay on hands ; but such arguing as mr rutherford useth , they may lay on hands , ergo , they may baptise ; this we remember not that we have read in any authors , except in him : nor doe we think the consequence the same , inasmuch as in the one the argument proceeds from the greater to the lesse , and in the other from the lesse to the greater , and yet affirmatively in both . thus the argument is understood by the forenamed author of the unbishoping of timothy and tytus , who in pag. 100. speaking of these words of mornay layes down the argument thus , he can baptise , he can consecrate and administer the lords supper which are the greater and more honorable actions , ergo , he may lay on hands which is the lesse : and this kind of arguing for my part , i think to be good ▪ but for that of mr. rutherfords , i see no more consequence therein , then if one should say , he that may doe the lesser , may doe the greater also ▪ in which i see , no strength of consequence at all . pag. 493 , 494. whereas some say act. 6. 3 , 4 , 5. election of seven men to be deacons goeth before ordination or imposition of hands , v. 6. answ . election of the people goeth before ordination in the relation of luke , true ; ergo , election is prior by order of nature , it followeth not . answ . the place cannot be so satisfied ; for the text is very plain , that these seven were elected by the multitude afore the apostles laid their hands on them ; yea , and not onely afore in respect of priority of nature , but also in respect of time ; for otherwise , how could the apostles say as they doe unto the multitude ; brethren look out seven men among you whom we may appoint over this busines ? can any man imagine they would thus have spoken , if themselves had already found out the men , and likewise had imposed hands upon them ? for my part , i see no reason for such an apprehension ; but think it is undenyably plain in the text , that the election of these seven by the people was prior to their ordination , by imposition of the apostles hands , not onely in the relation of luke as mr. rutherford would have it , but also in nature and time , and that the contrary cannot be said without violence to the text , and injury and wrong unto the apostles , who by mr. rutherfords exposition are made to have bidden the multitude to look out for the men amongst them of honest report , &c. with a profession that when the multitude had so done they would then appoint the men to the businesse , when as by this exposition they had already appointed them thereunto , and had imposed their hands on them , which kinde of dealing had been such , that i think that apostles were farre from it . it cannot be that election of the people is the whol calling of a man to the ministery , and ordination only a supplement & a consummatory rite , or a benedictory sign , which may be spared . answ . take ordination as we do , and why cannot this be ? himself told us p. 492. that he thinks not imposition of hands so essentiall , but that a minister may be a minister without it , and that to him it is but a rite annexed to the calling : which is just the same that we hold , and yet when it comes from us it cannot be accepted . again , he told us pag. 186 , 187. that there are true and lawfull pastors , who have no call but peoples election : which if it be so , doth it not then follow , that the election of the people with the mans acceptance thereof is his whole calling ? for if ●●ey be true and lawfull pastors , who have no more but this election , it seems it must needs be that this is the whole , and yet here this is denyed . but let us hear the reasons of this denyall . 1. because by the imposition of the hands of the presbytery timothy was made a minister , 1 timothy 4. 14. answ . the text is not by the imposition of their hands , but with it , not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as was noted afore out of didoclavius altare damascen . p. 161. who also sheweth in the same place at large , that this imposition of hands upon timothy was onely for a testimonall of the approbation of his calling , and for a ceremony used in commending him to god in their prayers . and in asmuch as the office of timothy was the office of an evangelist , how could an ordinary presbytery giving him either the gifts or the power belonging thereto ? when mr. rutherford hath satisfied mr. calderwood in these things ( a man of his own nation ) for i suppose mr. calderwood to be the authour of that treatise of altare damascen . then if we require more may be said of this place . in the mean time i proceed to the next . by this imposition of hands paul and sylas were separated to preach to the gentiles , acts 13. 1 , 2 , 3. answ . paul and sylas are not once mentioned in that place , but paul and barnabas ; but not to insist upon this mistake , let m. calderwood answer for us concerning this scripture : litigent , saith he , inter se pontifieii utrum impositio ista manuum fuerit ordinativa , &c. that is , let the papists contend amongst themselves whether this imposition of hands was for ordination , or onely for prayer : we hold that it was for prayer and comendatory ( for they commended them to the grace of god , as it s said , act. 14. 26. ) yet as they could not ord●●n them and call them to this ministery they being apostles , who were called extraordinarily , so neither could they appoint them to any certain imployment or place , for the holy ghost did direct the apostles in their troubles , and here it is expresly said , that they were sent forth by the holy ghost altare damascen . pag. 160. and then speaking of certain words of spalato , who saith , this imposition of hands was a pious ceremony , and used at that time as a certain part of an efficatious prayer ; he addeth , rectius diceret fuisse , &c. he might more rightly say , it was a rite and gesture of one that prayed , shewing the person for whom he did implore grace , rather then to call it an efficacious part of prayer . where we plainly see that he counts this imposition of hands on paul and barnabas no ordaining of them to the office , as some papists and it seems mr. rutherford would have it ; but onely a rite or gesture used when the presbytery commended paul and barnabas to god by prayer . this authour of altare damascenam also addeth , cum assumendi erant levitae , &c. that is , when the levites were to be taken from amongst the children of israel , the lord commands that they should be brought before jehova● , and that the children of israel should lay their hands upon the levites , numb . 8. 9 , 10. although the lord had commanded to consecrate these levites unto the ministery ; yet he commands the israelites to lay their hands upon the levites , as if they had of their own accord in their name given them up to the ministery , as junius in his analysis doth fitly interpret it : thus far mr. calderwood whose judgement of this scripture numb . 8. whether it be not the same with ours , which was formerly expressed , let mr. rutherford himself be judge . mr. rutherford addeth that by imposition of hands the deacons were ordained , act. 6. and that this is enjoyned with the right manner of acting it to timothy , 1 tim. 5. 22. and 2. 2. 2. as a ministeriall act . answ . whereas , he saith , it cannot be that laying on of hands should be onely a consummatory rite or benedictory signe , and brings the example of these deacons , acts. 6. for proof , i desire no more , but that he would accept his own words for answer . now in pag. 169. his words are these ; it is not said that the deacons were ordained with fasting and prayer , as hands are laid upon paul and barnabas , act. 13. 3 , 4. but simply that the apostles prayed and laid their hands on them ; which seems to me to be nothing but a signe of praying over these deacons , and no ceremony or sacrament conferring on them the holy ghost . now if it was nothing but a signe of praying over these deacons , then 1 the substance of their calling consisted not in this laying on of hands , but in some thing else ; and what should that be but their election by the people ? 2. if it was nothing but a signe of praying over then , then why is a consummatory rite and a benedictory signe gainsaid and opposed ? for what great difference is there between a sign of prayer and a benedictory signe ? and how shall he be reconciled with himself , that saith it was nothing but such a sign of praying , and yet will not yeeld that it was onely a benedictory signe ? and for the other particular where he saith , this laying on of hands was enjoyed to timothy as a ministeriall act , if by ministeriall act he mean an act that could be lawfully performed by none , but onely by a minister ; then i desire some proof that this was so enjoyned to timothy . that it was enjoyned to him i grant , but that it was so enjoyned needs some better proof then a bare and naked aff●rmation ; specially sith many things were enjoyned to timothy in those examples , which were and are justly applyable to all christians . furthermore suppose it were true that imposition of hands were enjoyned to timothy as a ministeriall act , how doth this reach to make good the thing in question ? what should hinder but the peoples election might contain the substance of a ministers calling notwithstanding ? or how doth it therfore follow that imposition of hands was not a consummatory rite or benedictory signe , but somthing more ? is there any such necessary consequence here , that the one of these must needs follow upon the other ? for my part i see it not , nor see any thing to the contrary , but if imposition of hands were such a ministeriall act , as he saith it is , yet it might still be meerly a consummatory rite or benedictory signe , and the substance of the calling consist still in the peoples election . himself doth say , as we hear even now , that imposition of hands act. 6. though here he call it a ministeriall act , was nothing but a signe of praying over the deacons . and therefore these two , to be a ministeriall act ▪ and yet to be nothing but a signe of prayer or benedictory sign ( which to me are the same ) are not so inconsistent by his own doctrine , but that they may well stand together ; and himself doth also hold that the laying on of hands mentioned numb . 8. 10. was a ministeriall act , and that they who did it , performed the same as ecclesiasticall elders ; and yet i hope , he will not deny that the substance of the levites calling was in the immediate designement and appointment of the lord , and not in the performance of this laying on of hands . and therefore it follows , that if laying on of hands were granted to be a ministeriall act , yet still it may be meerly a benedictory signe , and the substance or essence of the ministers calling not consist in it , but in some thing else . a mini●●eriall calling standeth in an authoritative sending , rom. 10. 15. and i see not well how the people do send a minister to themselves . answ . but it is not easie to see how they choose a man for a minister to themselves , being sent unto them by god ? and if god doe furnish a man with gifts , and an holy propensity of minde to the work in generall , and to such or such a people in particular , and make way by his providence thereto , then who can deny , but such a man is sent of god unto that people ? and then if that people observing gods sending of him in this s●●t , do hereupon elect and choose him , and promise to be obedient to him in the lord , what is there now wanting to the substance and offence of such a mans calling to such a people ? and yet the man is not sent by them to themselves , but sent by god , and received and chose by them : parcus understands this sending , rom. 10. of gods sending ▪ and so doth piscator , and who not ? and to understand it otherwise would be to condemne the prophets and apostles , who were not sent by men at all , and yet did truely answer this scripture , in that they were sent of god : true it is , ordinary ministers are not sent of god in such an extraordinary way as the prophets and apostles were , but in an ordinary way , and by ordinary means ; which way and means if they doe observe , they also may be truly said to be sent of god unto the people . but peradventure our brother means that the people may not lawfully choose a man for minister unto themselves , except he be first sent unto them , in an authoritative way by some other men , and that otherwise he is not sent unto them of god ; which if it were true , then it would follow , that the apostles and prophets , as i said , were not sent of god : for plain it is , that men sent them not . it would also hereupon be requisite to be cleared , that some men besides the church have authority to send ministers to the church , and who these men are that have such authority had need to be cleared also ; which i for my part think will not be done in hast . and till this be done , i know no reason , but i may still retain this apprehension , that men who are qualified according to the rule of the word and duly elected and chosen to some office of the ministery by gods people , are truly sent of god unto that people . the people have not either formally or by grant of christ virtually , the keyes committed to them , how then can they give the keyes to pastors ? answ . yet in p. 7. he tells us that he denyes not but there is a power virtuall , not formall in the church of beleevers , to supply the want of ordination of pastors , or some other acts of the keyes simply necessary , hic & nunc : and this power , saith he , is virtuall not formall . now to say they have this power neither formally nor virtually , and yet to say they have this power virtually though not formally , what is it but an apparent contradiction ? but suppose it were true that the people had not this power either formally or virtually , yet mr. ball and mr. bai●s afore him doe tell us , that ministerially they may give what they never had , viz. as ministring to him who hath power and virtue of deriving its as a man not 〈◊〉 a peny of his own may give an 100 l. if the king make him his almoner . thus the church deriveth a● taking the person whom christ describeth , and out of power will ●ave placed in this or that office in his church . the power of the imperiall dignity is not in the electo● of the emperours , nor the power of that office and authority , whereunto a minister is elected , in the church , who chuseth him to that office . ball tryall of separat . pag. 239 , 240. pag. 494 , 495. people may as the sheep of christ discern his voice , joh. 10. and so have a power of election of their own pastors : nor doth this make good what our brethren say , that therefore they may judge of a ministers fitnes ? answ . that which we say in this answ . pag. 51. there must be some ability to discerne whether men be qualified according to the rule , afore they ought to be elected and chosen into office ; and the people of god have so much ability as is of necessity required afore there be preceeding unto ordination ? wherein it is plain that our arguing is from the peoples ability to discern of mens fitnes afore they be elected , to their like ability to discern of their fitnesse afore they be ordained . they who have so much as to discern who are fit to be ordained : but the people of god may have the former . ergo , they may have the latter . now what saith mr. rutherford hereunto ? the assumption he denyes not , but in plain words grants it , saying , they may as christs sheep , joh. 10. discern christs voyce , and so have a power of election of their own pastors . it must then be the consequence that must be denyed , or the conclusion must be yeelded : what then brings he to overthrow the consequence ? nothing but this , that there is a two fold knowledge , one of christians not denyed to women and beleeving children , who cannot lay on hands , nor ordain mi●isters , as the presbytery doth . but what the other knowledge is he doth not plainly tell , except any thing may be gathered from the words following , where he saith , but for trying of ministers if they be the sonnes of the prophets apt to teach , able to convince the subtill hereticks , and gainsayers , and to put them to silence , there must be in a constituted church a colledge of pastors and prophets to try the prophets with a presbyteriall cognizance . answ . but if mr. rutherford would have spoken to the point , he should have given some reason why the people may discern a mans fitnes for election , and yet not discern his fitnes for ordination , for this is the consequence of our argument which he denyes . but in all that is here said about a two fold knowledge , one of christians , and the other of some body else , what is there in all this , that hath so much as the least shew of overthrowing or weakning the conseqence ? su●e nothing at all that i can finde : for as for that which is intimated , that christians have not so much knowledge as to try ministers whether they be apt to teach , &c. this makes nothing to the point in hand , that they can discern whether a man be fit to be elected , but not discern whether he be fit to be ordained ; but if it have any strength in it at all , it is as much against the ability of the people , which he expressely grants , as against that which he would deny ; as much against their ability of discerning his fitnes for ordination . and therefore how this should overthrow the one and not the other , i do not know : for to any mans understanding it makes no more against the one then against the other ; but either against both , which he will not grant , or else against neither which i conceive is the very truth ? to argue in this sort , they have not ability to convince 〈◊〉 hereticks ; ergo , they may not chuse their ministers , this mr. rutherford will not own ; for he plainly grants they may chuse : and therefore how can this arguing be good , they want ab●lity to convince hereticks ; ergo , they may not impose hands in ordination ? how the one kinds of reasoning can be better then the other , i do not know , except we would say some may be lawfully elected and chosen to the ministery , who cannot lawfully be ordained , but this i suppose cannot be said with truth . chap. xxvi . whether the epistles to timothy and titus , wherein there are contained rules of direction in laying on of hands , do prove that the action may not in any case be performed by non-officers , but must be performed onely by presbyters ; and whether the argument do not make as strongly for the appropriating of laying on of hands to the prelates , as to the presbyters , and do not as well exclude the presbyters from medling therein , as exclude the people . there is onely one place more where i finde mr. rutherford excepting against the answer ; and that is in his pag. 497. where alledging the answer pag. 59. which i conceive is misprinted for pag. 49. he sets down these words as ours , viz. if people may not meddle with ordination , because it is proper to timothy and titus , this may prove that they were bishops who did ordaine elders there alone , which ministers may not doe there , for these epistles are not written to them as bishops alone , nor as elders alone , but as to a mixt state including the people . answ . the order of the dispute is this : reverend mr. herle arguing for ordination of officers by a consociated eldership , and not by a single congregation with or without a pastor , brings this reason for his judgement , viz. rules of direction how to proceed in ordination , and the epistles where those rules are laid down , are not written to the churches or congregations , but to timothy and titus . in answer whereunto we spoke to this purpose , that if this be a sufficient reason to prove that the people may not in any case meddle with ordination , then by as good reason it will follow , that ordination belongs not to the presbytery or synod , but onely to one man , as the prelates would have it ; the reason we give is , because timothy and titus were each of them but onely one man. and we there further say , that we doe approve the answer given to this kinde of reasoning by the refuter of dr. down●●s sermon , at l●●beth , who shews that what was written in those epistles , was not onely written for timothy and titus , but for other ministers also , and also in some sort for all the saints , and that therefore there is no more reason to appropriate those rules , onely to the use of presbyteries and synods , then only to the use of prelates . now what saith mr. rutherford to this ? some parcell of these 〈◊〉 are written , saith he , to timothy and titus as evangeli●ts . something 's are written to them as christians ; and finaditer & objective all is written for the churches good , but the bulk of the epistles is written to them as elders , and especially . 1 tim. 5. 22. 2 tim. 2. 2. for these and the like they were to doe with the presbytery as is cleare , 1 tim. 4. 14. answ . this scripture 1 tim. 4. doth shew that timothy had a gift given him by prophesie with the laying on the hands of the presbytery ; but how doth it hence appear , that not only timothy but titus also was to dothings with the presbytery ? titus is not at all mentioned in that scripture . and as for timothy , scripture tells what the presbytery did to him , but what he must doe with the presbytery it tells us nothing at all . again , if the bulk of the epistles be written to them as elders , and the churches be no otherwise concerned therein , but only finaliter and objectively , the epistles being written for their good , then what shall be the meaning and reason of these words in the conclusion of the epistle to titus , and of the latter to timothy , where it is said , grace be with you , and grace be with you all ? doth it not plainly appear hereby , that more then elders , even all the saints in those places are written unto in those epistles ? thirdly if there be rules in the epistles that doe belong to elders alone , yet sith it is confessed , and may not be denyed , that other things therein doe concern all christians , how shall we be assured that such passages , as concern ●aying on of hands are of the former sort , and not of the latter ? for to say it is so , and it is clear , we think doth not clear it at all , unlesse some further proofe be added . lastly , if all this were granted , which here is said by mr. rutherford , yet for ought i see , our answer is not removed thereby , but still stands fair and good : for in that place of the answer alledged , we say two things , 1. that these rules about ordination in timothy and titus may with as fair a colour be appropriated to one man , as to presbyteries and synods . 2. that the epistles and the rules therein are not to be appropriated to bishops alone or ministers alone , but are indeed of generall concernment for all the christians . now neither of these two is discovered by mr. rutherford . for as for the former of them , he saith nothing thereto at all ; and the latter he doth in a manner grant , not only by saying that all here is written for the churches good , but also by saying that somethings are written to timothy and titus as christians which is in effect the same that we had said before . and how our answer can be disproved or satisfied , either by saying nothing at all thereto , or by saying the same that we had said before , i leave it to the judicious reader to consider . finis . a discourse of ecclesiastical politie wherein the authority of the civil magistrate over the consciences of subjects in matters of external religion is asserted : the mischiefs and incoveniences of toleration are represented, and all pretenses pleaded in behalf of liberty of conscience are fully answered. parker, samuel, 1640-1688. 1671 approx. 430 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 188 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2004-05 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a70888 wing p460 estc r2071 12628665 ocm 12628665 64701 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a70888) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 64701) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 893:23 or 1533:10) a discourse of ecclesiastical politie wherein the authority of the civil magistrate over the consciences of subjects in matters of external religion is asserted : the mischiefs and incoveniences of toleration are represented, and all pretenses pleaded in behalf of liberty of conscience are fully answered. parker, samuel, 1640-1688. the third edition. [2], xlvi, 326 p. printed for john martyn ..., london : 1671. this item appears at reels 893:23 and 1533:10. reproduction of original in the bodleian library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng church and state -church of england. church polity. religious tolerance. 2004-02 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-02 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-03 rina kor sampled and proofread 2004-03 rina kor text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-04 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a discourse of ecclesiastical politie : wherein the authority of the civil magistrate over the consciences of subjects in matters of external religion is asserted . the mischiefs and inconveniences of toleration are represented , and all pretenses pleaded in behalf of liberty of conscience are fully answered . the third edition . london , printed for iohn martyn at the bell in s t paul's church-yard , 1671. the preface to the reader . reader , i cannot imagine any thing , that our dissenting zealots will be able to object against this ensuing treatise , unless perhaps in some places the vehemence and severity of its style ; for cavil i know they must : and if they can raise no tolerable exceptions against the reasonableness of the discourse it self , it shall suffice to pick quarrels with words and phrases . but i will assure thee , the author is a person of such a tame and softly humour , and so cold a complexion , that he thinks himself scarce capable of hot and passionate impressions : and therefore if he has sometimes twisted invectives with his arguments , it proceeded not from temper but from choice ; and if there be any tart and vpbraiding expressions , they were not the dictates of anger or passion , but of the iust and pious resentments of his mind . and i appeal to any man , who knows upon what sober grounds and principles the reformation of the church of england stands ; and how that its forms and institutions are not only countenanced by the best and purest times of christianity , but establisht by the fundamental laws of the land ; whether he can so perfectly charm and stupifie his passions , as not to be chafed into some heat & briskness ? when he seriously considers , that this church so rightly constituted , and so duely authorised should be so savagely worried by a wild and fanatique rabble ; that this church so soberly modelled , so warrantably reformed , and so handsomly settled , should have been so perpetually beleaguered , and be yet not out of all danger of being rifled , if not utterly demolisht by folly and ignorance ; that the publick peace and settlement of a nation should be so wofully discomposed upon such slender and frivolous pretenses , and that , after they have been so often and so shamefully baffled ; that both church and state should be so lamentably embroyl'd by the pride and insolence of a few peevish ignorant and malepert preachers ; and lastly , that these brain-sick people , if not prevented by some speedy and effectual remedy , may in a little time grow to that power and confidence , as to be able ( to use their own language ) to * shut the heavens that they shall not rain , i. e. to restrain the highest powers of church and state from their wonted influence ; and to have power over the waters to turn them into blood , i. e. to turn the still people of a state or nation into war and blood : or , to speak in our own plain english , to tye the hands of authority , to instigate the people of god to rebellion , and once more involve the kingdom in blood and confusion . let the reader consider all this , as throughly and seriously as i have done , and then be a stoick if he can . but besides this , let any man , that is acquainted with the wisdom and sobriety of true religion , tell me , how 't is possible not to be provoked to scorn and indignation against such proud , ignorant , and supercilious hypocrites ; who though they utterly defeat all the main designs of religion , yet boast themselves its only friends and patrons ; signalize their party by distinctive titles and characters of godliness , and brand all others , howsoever pious and peaceable , with bad names , and worse suspicions ? who i say , that loves and adores the spirit of true religion , can forbear to be sharp and severe to such thick and fulsom abuses ? in that there is not any thing can so much expose or traduce true piety , as this sort of hypocrisie ; because whilst folly and phantastry appears in the vizour of holiness , it makes that seem as ridiculous as it self . and hence the greatest friends of true goodness have always been the severest satyrists upon false godliness ; and our blessed saviour scarce seemed more concern'd to plant and propagate christianity , than to explode the pharisaick hypocrisie , i. e. religious pride and insolence . i know but one single instance , in which zeal , or a high indignation is just and warrantable ; and that is when it vents it self against the arrogance of haughty , peevish , and sullen religionists , that under higher pretences to godliness supplant all principles of civility and good nature ; that strip religion of its outside to make it a covering for spight and malice ; that adorn their peevishness with the mask of piety , and shroud their ill nature under the demure pretences of godly zeal ; and stroak and applaud themselves as the only darlings and favourites of heaven , and with a scornful pride disdain all the residue of mankind , as a rout of worthless and unregenerate reprobates . thus the only hot fit of zeal we find our saviour in , was kindled by an indignation against the pride and insolence of the iews , when he whipt the buyers and sellers out of the outward court of the temple : for though they bore a blind and superstitious reverence towards that part of it , that was peculiar to their own worship , yet as for the outward court , the place where the gentiles and proselytes worship't , that was so unclean & unhallowed , that they thought it could not be prophaned , by being turn'd into an exchange of vsury . now this insolent contempt of the gentiles , and impudent conceit of their own holiness , provoked the mild spirit of our blessed saviour to such an height of impatience and indignation as made him with a seeming fury and transport of passion whip the tradesmen thence , and overthrow the tables . so hateful is all proud , testy , and factious zeal to a loving and divine temper of mind . and indeed what can we imagine more odious or mischievous than a spirit of pride , peevishness , and animosity adopted into the service of god ? this divides religion into factions and parties , engenders a sullen and unsociable niceness towards all that herd not with themselves , breeds nothing but rancour , malice and envy , and every thing that is destructive of the common peace and amity of mankind . and when people separate and rendevouz themselves into distinct sects and parties , they always confine all their kind influences to their own faction , and look with a scornful and malignant aspect upon all the rest of mankind , become enemies and outlaws to humane society , and shatter in pieces that natural peace and common love , that preserves the welfare and tranquillity of humane nature . their minds ( like the savage americans ) are as contracted as their herds , and all that are not within the fold of their church , are without the sphere of their charity : this is entirely swallowed up within their own combination , and 't is no part of their duty to commiserate or supply the wants of the vnregenerate . as the poet describes the jewish bigots , non monstrare vias , eadem nisi sacra colenti , quaesitum ad fontem solos deducere verpos . they would not so much as direct the way to any but a circumcised brother , nor bestow a cup of cold water upon a thirsty samaritan . the elect are confined to their own party , and all besides are the wicked and reprobate of the earth , hated of god , and unfit to be beloved by his people . and this possesses their minds with a holy inhumanity ; and then , if the saints ever get into power , no tyrant so cruel and butcherly ; and they have the same esteem of the wicked as of insects or vermin , and use them accordingly : but when they are out of power , they are then forced to support their malice with slanders and calumnies and proud comparisons : when they meet and gossip together , how do they congratulate each other , that they are not as this or that formalist ? and the greatest part of their idle tattle is usually spent either in censuring or pitying , or slandering some of their neighbours , as poor carnal and unconverted wretches . and when they deign to converse with the vnregenerate and men of the world , i. e. all out of their own rowt , they make them keep their distance ; and the language of their deportment is that of their predecessors in the prophet isaiah : stand by thy self , come not near to me ; for i am holier than thou . in brief , whoever is proud and conceited upon the score of religion , naturally falls into the most savage insolence and baseness of nature , and is utterly uncapable of being either good subject , or good neighbour . now to lash these morose and churlish zealots with smart and twinging satyrs , is so far from being a criminal passion , that 't is a zeal of meekness and charity , and a prosecution of the grand and diffusive duty of humanity , and proceeds only from an earnest desire to maintain the common love and amity of mankind . and though good manners oblige us to treat all other sorts of people with gentle and civil language ; yet when we have to do with the scribes and pharisees , we must point our reproofs with sharp invectives , we must discover them to themselves to humble them ; we must lance their tumour , and take out the core of their proud flesh before we can cure them ; anodynes and softer medicines make no impressions upon them , to treat them smoothly does but feed the humour ; soft and tender words do but tempt their disdain , and sooth up their vanity ; they think you flatter and fawn upon them , if you speak them fair , your civility they will interpret respect , and a forced esteem of their godliness . they know that you and the rest of the world hate the people of god , and would use them basely and inhumanely ; but that the greatness of their piety gives check to your malice , and , in spight of all your outragious passion against them , extorts a more gentle usage , if not a secret love and veneration . but beside , that soft reproofs do but cocker their presumption , they would suffer true goodness to be run down by the violence of ignorance and zeal . and to think to argue rude and boystrous zealots out of their folly meerly by the strength of calm and sober reason , is as likely a matter as to endeavour by fair words to perswade the northern wind into a southern point . if you will ever silence them , you must be as vehement as they : nothing but zeal can encounter zeal . and he that will oppose the pharisees , must do it with their eagerness , though not their malice . clamour and confidence make stronger impressions upon the common people , than strength of reason ; and the rabble ever runs to that party , that raises the biggest noise . and therefore seeing we are not so ill-bred , as to oppose clamour to clamour ; we must supply our want of noise and throat ( as our saviour did in his invectives against the pharisees ) by sharpness and severity . and though there is but little ground to hope that the keenest reasons should be able to pierce their thick and inveterate prejudices ; yet however the sharper edge they have , the deeper they will stick in the minds of those , whose concern and interest it is to punish and correct them . for i am not so vain as to design , or expect their own conviction : as good attempt the removal of mountains , as of some mens scruples . and i remember the italian proverb , chi lava la testa d'al asino perde il sapone . and therefore i never proposed to my self any other aim in this following discourse , than by representing the palpable inconsistency of fanatick tempers and principles with the welfare and security of government , to awaken authority to beware of its worst and most dangerous enemies , and to force them to that modesty and obedience by severity of laws , to which all the strength of reason in the world can never perswade them . when i first resolved upon this vndertaking , the main design in my thoughts , was to represent to the world the lamentable folly and silliness of these mens religion , aud to shew what pitiful and incompetent guides of their actions their own consciences are ; and that to leave them to the government of their own perswasions , is only to deliver them up to be abused by all manner of vices and follies ; and that when they have debaucht their minds with pride , ignorance , self-love , ambition , peevishness , malice , envy , surliness , and superstition , &c. they then bestow the authority and sacredness of conscience upon their most violent , boisterous , and ungovernable passions : in brief , that their consciences are seized on by such morose and surly principles , as make them , the rudest and most barbarous people in the world ; and that in comparison of them , the most insolent of the pharisees were gentlemen , and the most savage of the americans philosophers . but in this design i found my self happily prevented by a late learned and ingenious discourse , the friendly debate , that has unravel'd all their affected phrases with so much perspicuity of wit , discovered the feebleness of their beloved notions , with so much clearness of reason , demonstrated the wildness of their practices by so many pregnant and undeniable testimonies , exposed the palpable unwarrantableness of their schism , the shameful prevarication of their pretences , and utter inconsistency of their principles with publick peace & settlement ; and in brief , so evidently convicted the leaders in the faction of such inexcusable knavery , and their followers of such a dull and stubborn simplicity ; that 't is impossible any thing should hold out against so much force of reason and demonstration , but invincible impudence and obstinacy : and when men insconce themselves in their own wills , they are there impregnable . wilfulness is enchanted armour , upon which the sharpest steel makes no impression ; and they are secure from the power of conviction , that are unalterably resolved never to be convinced . otherwise nothing could be more apparent to any man ( that has but a competent knowledge of the nature of the things there debated ) that never any cause in the world was more shamefully baffled and triumphed over , than this of schismatical non-conformity . and though it has gaul'd them into an implacable rage and indignation ( for that as solomon observes , is the humour of some sorts of men , to rage and be confident , when they are convinced ) yet in spight of affronts and provocations , it has found them a tame and patient people , that can generously endure to see themselves so smartly pelted for their folly and villany , and never so much as snarl , or attempt to fasten upon those weapons , that have so sorely bruised them ; and as for those little cattel that have been so hardy as to nibble at a reply , they have only put us in mind of the old fable of the serpent and the file , and have proved nothing but the strength of their folly , and weakness of their teeth ; and all of them may wear their fangs to the roots , before they make any impression upon the body of the discourse . the main and most popular objection , i could ever meet with against it , is its form and method , viz. it s being written in way of dialogue ; in which way of writing ( they say ) a witty man may make any thing look as uncouth and ridiculous as he pleases . and this is true , in absurd and inartificial dialogues ; but when they are skilfully contrived ( as this is ) there is no way of arguing more smart and convictive : for the design of such composures is to represent the authors own thoughts upon occasion of something affirm'd or intimated by the counter-party ; and therefore if his own discourse be rational and concluding , there is nothing more required to that of the other party , than that his talk be agreeable to the pretenses of those men he personates : so that , if the authors own arguments and opinions ( that are the substance of the treatise ) be unreproveable , 't is not material how wise his adversaries discourse is , so it be not false . neither would he require them to defend and justifie every thing that is said in the person of the non-conformist ( for many things are collateral , and only design'd to set off his reasonings with a comical humour and pleasantness ) but only to reply to the scope and substance of his book by justifying their own notions that he has confuted , and by confuting those that he has asserted . which unless they shew themselves able to perform , they must acknowledge he has perfectly shamed their folly , and unmaskt their hypocrisie . but besides , this being but a general exception , must by the laws of reasoning pass not only for a precarious but a false cavil , till it is proved by some particular instances , & neither needs , nor admits of any other reply , than barely to challenge them to alledg any thing of moment in their own behalf about the particular matters there debated , that he has not sufficiently represented : if in any thing considerable he has been disingenuous , let them point it out ; but if they cannot , let them not think to satisfie the world , by objecting what they confess they cannot prove , because they do not . 't is true indeed , the speeches of the non-conformist are not so large and copious as his adversaries , because his part consists mainly in hinting doubts and objections , which must of necessity be in all forms of arguing much shorter than their just and satisfactory replies ; especially when they are not barely answered , but confuted too : and therefore considering the difference of the parts of the dialogue , he has as clearly represented their sense as his own ; and if all he says for them were composed into one continued speech , it would be no easie matter to discern it from one of their own discourses . but the thing that really grieves them , is , that in this method he has stopt all their subterfuges , as he proceeds , by preventing their shifting of phrases , and hiding themselves in a maze of words ; for , whereas 't is their usual artifice to tire out the wise , and amuse the simple , by rowling up and down in canting and ambiguous expressions , he has been at the pains to serret them from phrase to phrase , and never left his pursuit till they were left quite naked and defenceless , and without one crany whereby to make an escape : in so much , that they can never be able to return any tolerable answers to one part of his treatise , that are not already prevented in another . but that which chiefly tempts less discerning people to suspect some partiality , is , that the discourse of the non-conformist looks all along so simply ; though for that they ought to consider , that 't is no wonder if non-sense runs so lamely , when truth and reason tread so close upon its heels ; and the babble of a fool never appears so fulsom , as when he discourses with a philosopher ; 't is the smartness and perspicuity of the reply , that makes their folly so transparent : remove the conformist , and then the other talks at as wise a rate , as any of their own writers . but i beg the readers pardon , for having so much tired his patience with satisfying the cavils and impertinences of these people ; when i am so well assured that they are uncapable either of being ashamed or argued out of their follies . 't is one thing to baffle , and another to convince them . and where they want stores of reason to encounter an adversary , they never want magazines of reproaches : and therefore i shall only advise that excellent person , the author of the debate , to be careful how he lays aside his vizour ; for if ever they discover him , let him look to be pelted to purpose with slanders , and blasting reports : and though he be a person of the clearest and most unspotted innocence , that is no fence against the foulest aspersions ; but if they ever find out the place of his residence , let him assure himself , they will quickly find the next dunghil to it , how clean soever he sweeps his own door . as for my own part i am hardned enough to be proof against the poison of asps , the stings of vipers , and the tongues of — and rest satisfyed in this , that they can never abuse me more than they are pleased to abuse themselves ; it being the most solemn strain of their devotion to vilifie themselves with large confessions of the hainousest and most aggravated sins : they will freely acknowledge their offences against all the commandments , and that with the foulest and most enhancing circumstances they can rake together , and confess their injustice , vncleanness , and extortion , and all the publican and harlot sins in the world : and in all their confessions they stick not to charge themselves with such large catalogues of sin , and to amass together such an heap of impieties , as would make up the compleatest character of lewdness and villany . and if their consciences do really arraign them of all those crimes , whereof they so familiarly endite themselves , there are no such guilty and unpardonable wretches as they . so that their confessions are either true , or false : if false , then they fool and trifle with the almighty ; if true , then i could easily tell them the fittest place to say their prayers in . but however 't is pity to abridge them the liberty all men have , to abuse themselves : but if they will extend this their priviledge so far , as to attaint other mens reputations , i shall only admonish them as a friend before-hand , that there is somebody in the world that will not fail to requite their slanders , and false aspersions , with their own true character . and so i take my leave of them , to address my self to those for whom this discourse was intended . and though i dare not be so sawcy as to teach my superiours , how to govern the kingdom , out of ezekiel , or the revelations ; yet i will presume to put up this single petition , in order to the security of our publick peace and settlement . that whatsoever freedom they may think good to indulge to religion , they would not suffer irreligion to share in the favour , nor permit atheism to appear openly ( as it begins to do ) under the protection of liberty of conscience . i am not so utterly unacquainted with the experience of former ages , as to be over-apt to complain of the degeneracy of our own : the world i know has ever had its vicissitudes , and periods of vertue and wickedness : and all common-wealths have advanced themselves to their power and grandeur by sobriety and wisdom , and a tender regard of religion ; and from thence have declined again by softness and effeminacy , by sacrilege and prophaneness , and a proud contempt of god and his worship . this is the circle of humane affairs , and on these constant turns depend the periods and certain fates of empires . so that though atheism reigns and prevails more in the present age , than in some that went immediately before it ; yet there have been seasons , when it was mounted up to a greater height of power and reputation , than 't is yet advanced to : but then those have always been black and fatal times , and have certainly brought on changes and dissolutions of states . for the principles of irreligion unjoynt the sinews and blow up the very foundations of government : this turns all sense of loyalty into folly ; this sets men at liberty from all the effectual obligations to obedience , and makes rebellion as vertuous , when ever it either is , or is thought as advantageous . and therefore it imports authority to nip this wanton humour in the bud , and to crush it whilst 't is young and tender ; for as yet it has found but slender entertainment with wise and sober persons , and is only propagated among little and unlearned people : discreet men that have not more religion , have yet at least more wit and manners : the only zelots in the cause are the young nurslings , and small infantry of the wits , the wild and hair-brain'd youths of the town . a sort of creatures that study nothing but sloth and idleness , that design nothing but folly and extravagance , that aspire to no higher accomplishments than fine phrases , terse oaths , and gay plumes , that pretend to no other stock of learning , but a few shavings of wit gathered out of plays and comedies ; and these they abuse too , and labour to pervert their chaste expressions to obscene and irreligious purposes ; and johnson and fletcher are prophaned , as well as the holy scriptures . they measure the wit of their discourse by its prophaneness and ribaldry ; and nothing sets it off so handsomly as neat and fashionable oaths : and the only thing that makes them appear more witty then other folk , is their daring to be more wicked : their iests are remarkable for nothing but their presumption , and the picquancy of their conceit lies in their boldness . men laugh not so much at the wit , as the sawciness of their discourse ; and because they dare vent such things , as a discreet or civil man would scorn to say , though he were an atheist . but these shallow fools are proud and ambitious to gain a name and reputation for debauchery , they slander themselves with false impieties , and usurp the wickedness they were never guilty of , only to get a renown in villany . 't is these apes of wit , and pedants of gentility that would make atheism the fashion forsooth , and prophaneness the character of a gentleman ; that think it a piece of gallantry to scoff at religion , droll upon god and make sport with his laws ; that account it an argument of iudgment and ingenuity , to be above the follies of conscience : and a height of courage and magnanimity , at all adventure to brave and defie heaven , and out-dare the almighty ; and the noblest part of a gentile behaviour , to counterfeit an haughty and supercilious disdain of religious sneeks ; and to beg all men that are respective to their consciences , for soft and cowardly fools , that are scared with phantastick and invisible powers , and easily abused with tricks , and juglings , and publick tales . now certainly , these phantastick changelings must needs be wonderfully qualified , to judge of the most serious and most difficult enquiries in the world . are they not likely ( think you ) to search into the deepest foundations of religion , to weigh and examine all the arguments for the being of god , and immortality of the soul ; to enquire into the grounds of the christian faith , and to take an account of the truth and credibility of the scriptures ? and , when they have so utterly emasculated their vnderstandings with softness and luxury , are not they prodigiously able to examine what agrees or quarrels with the dictates of pure and impartial reason ? are they not likely to determine what is truely great and generous , that never heard of any other maxims of philosophy , but what they have pick'd up at plays , out of the stiff disputes of love and honour ? and are they not likely to give a wonderful account of the record of ancient times ( without which they are utterly unable to judg of the truth or falshood of any religion ) that were never acquainted with any history , unless perhaps that of the follies , and amours of the french court ? and yet how briskly do these giddy youths determine these , and a thousand other difficult theories , that they never had learning or patience enough to understand , much less to make an exact and satisfying search into their truth and evidence ? alas young men ! you are too rash and forward , your confidence swells above your vnderstandings : 't is not for you to pretend to atheism , 't is too great a priviledge for boys and novices . 't is sawsiness for you to be prophane , and to censure religion impudence and ill manners : and whatsoever rational pleas atheism may admit of , 't is not for such as you to pretend to wit and learning enough to understand them . and therefore take heed of exposing your vanity and weakness ; and , if you will not be wise , yet at least be modest : be advised , not to set up before your time , and better to furnish your vnderstandings , before you vent your wit. consider , what a fulsome thing it is , that when the most learned and inquisitive of the philosophers could never raise atheism above the certainty of a grand perhaps : and therefore denied not , but only doubted , the truth of religion : for none of them could ever be so utterly forsaken of his reason , as to attempt to demonstrate there could be no god ; but only by shewing how , to solve the phaenomena of nature and providence without him , that possibly there might be none : and therefore they were never so absurd , as to affront the worship of the deity ; but thought themselves as effectually obliged in prudence to the duties of vertue and religion by the possibility , as by the certainty of things . now i say , when these men of parts and learning were so modest and diffident in their singular perswasions ; what an unhandsome thing is it for such empty fops as you , with so bold and frontless a confidence , to defie the almighty , to deride the wisdom of his laws , to cavil at his sacred oracles , and to give the lye to the vniversal sense of mankind ; and all this at all adventure ? and yet , methinks , 't is pretty to hear one of these little mushrome wits , charge religion with credulity and easiness of belief ; and talk confidently , that 't is want of iudgment and enquiry that betrays fools and ignorant people to be scared with the tales and threatnings of ambitious priests : though it be so utterly impossible that any men should be more chargeable with credulity , than themselves ; and no mans faith is capable of being more implicit , than their vnbelief ; nor can the most illiterate peasant take up his countries religion upon more slender grounds and motives , than they do their infidelity : their being equally ignorant forces them to be equally credulous . for , not to repeat any of the forementioned particulars , with what a greedy confidence do they swallow down the principles of the malmsbury philosophy , without any chewing , or consideration ? how hussingly will they assert , that the notion of an immaterial substance implies a contradiction , for no other reason , than because it does ? that men have no faculties but of sense and imagination ; that vnderstanding is reaction , and reason a train of phantasmes ; that the will is a corporeal motion , that its determinations are fatal and mechanical , and necessitated by the impressions of external and irresistible causes ; that its liberty of choice is as absurd and insignificant nonsense , as a round quadrangle ; that religion is the belief of tales publickly allowed ; that power is right , and justifies all actions whatsoever , whether good or bad ; that there is nothing just , or unjust in it self ; that all right and wrong is the result of humane contracts ; and that the laws of nature are nothing but maxims and principles of self-interest ! how boldly do they take up with these and other resembling principles of baseness and irreligion , upon the bare authority and proofless assertions of one proud and haughty philosopher ? how much severe study and contemplation is required to a competent knowledge of these things ? and yet with what a stiff and peremptory confidence are they determined by these men , that cannot pretend to any other knowledge , ( and 't is a very candid presumption to allow them so much ) than of the laws of a play , or poem ? in brief , these empty spunges suck in opinions , for their agreeableness with their debauched and licentious practices , without ever considering their truth and evidence ; for alas ! they never troubled their heads with such enquiries : and therefore , whatever they pretend , 't is not their reasons , but their lusts and vices , that cavil at the principles of religion ; and they except against it , not because it contradicts their understandings , ( for that they never considered ) but their appetites : 't is their sins and sensual inclinations , that prejudice and bar up their minds against it : and though they were convinced of its truth , they would however be infidels still , in spight of all the reason and demonstration in the world . their irreligion is an after-game of their debauchery , they are forced to it in their own defence . their wickedness has made infidelity their interest , and atheism their refuge ; and then they cannot , will not believe , for no other reason , but only because they dare not . but that i may not pursue their ignorance too unmercifully , i will venture , before i conclude , to commend their skill : for i cannot but acknowledge them guilty of one little piece of art and sophistry , viz. that being conscious to themselves , that no tolerable exceptions can be raised against the principles of true goodness , they affect to reproach it with forged and disingenuous aspersions , and wittingly disparage its native beauty and loveliness , by representing it in false and uncouth disguises . for , whereas there is nothing more noble and generous , more cheerful and sprightly , more courteous and affable , more free and ingenuous , more sober and rational , than the spirit and genius of true religion ; these witty gentlemen are pleased to paint it out in sad and melancholy shapes , with poor and wretched features , with soure and anxious looks , as an enemy to all mirth and cheerfulness , and a thing that delights in nothing but sighs , and groans , and discoloured faces : they dress it up in all the follies and deformities of superstition ; and then , when they have made it ridiculous , they make themselves sport with it : and thus by representing it as a humour unworthy the entertainment of a generous mind , that justifies their contempt of so weak a passion , and makes a sumptuous apology for the gallantry of atheism and prophaneness . and indeed , if religion were as mean and absurd , as these men would make it , and others have made it , let it not only excuse but abet their practices ; let it be the mark of an high and gallant spirit , to be an atheist ; let it be gentility to despise , and wit to droll upon religion ; let all devotion be esteemed the child of folly and weakness ; let it be an argument of wisdom , to be prophane and vicious , and let vertue become a name of the greatest reproach and infamy . but alas ! when 't is so demonstratively evident , that true piety ( though it were an imposture ) is our greatest wisdom and perfection ; that it both adorns , and advances humane nature ; that it is so highly advantageous to the peace and happiness of the world ; that it carries in it all that is amiable and lovely , all that is cheerful and ingenuous , all that is useful and profitable ; and that 't is whatever can advance either our content , or interest , or reputation : when all this is so amply evident , what can be more unpardonably base and disingenuous , than for these men , in spight of all remonstrances , still to upbraid it with the villanies of hypocrisie , and blast its credit with the absurdities of superstition , which is the greatest folly in the world , for no other reason , than because it debauches what is the greatest wisdom ? and therefore they would do well to understand a little better what religion means , before they take upon them to disgrace and defame it ; and let them not discover their lamentable rawness and ignorance , by laughing at its folly and meanness , till they can first prove a base and selfish spirit to be more noble and generous , than an universal love and charity ; pride and luxury to be more amiable than sweetness and ingenuity ; revenge and impatience more honourable than discretion and civility ; excess and debauchery more healthful than temperance and sobriety : to be enslaved to their lusts and passions more manly , than to live by the rules of reason and prudence ; malice and injustice to be more graceful and becoming a gentile behaviour , than kindness and benignity ; and the horrors of an amazed spirit to be fuller of pleasure and felicity , than that peace and calmness of mind that springs from the reflections of an exact conscience . till all this , and much more is made good , that is , till all the maxims of folly and wisdom are changed , let them be civil , and modest , and not scorn too confidently . and though all this could be done , yet , as for their parts they will be so far from ever performing it , that they will never be at the pains of attempting it ; and if they should , 't is ( god knows ) too great a work for their little understandings . and therefore i appeal to all the wise and sober world , whether they that would make religion ridiculous , are not infinitely so themselves ? whether to consute it with raillery and bold iests , be not as void of wit as reason ? and whether all the folly and madness in the world can equal this of these scoffing atheists ? and thus having scourged their ignorance and presumption with severity enough , i shall forbear either to expose them for their pedantry , or to lash them for their rudeness and ill manners : though what can be more pedantick , than to be so big with every little conceit , as to be in labour to vent it in every company ? and a pert school-boy is scarce more troublesome with a petty criticism against mr. lilly , than these truantly youths are with any singular exception , that they have picked up against the holy scriptures . they cannot meet with a person of any reputation for learning , but they must be pecking at him with their objections ; and if he slight their impertinent pratings ( as all discreet men do ) then the next time they meet their dear hearts , with what triumphant shrugs do they boast their success against the man in black , and so laugh and drink themselves into confidence and folly ! and then , as for their want of manners , what deportment can be more course and clownish than to affect to be offensive to all discreet men , and to delight to loath and nauseate all civil company with the filthiness of their discourse ? a behaviour more irkesom to a gentleman of any breeding and civility , than the buffoonry of hostlers and porters . they can scarce meet with a clergy-man , but they must be pelting him with oaths , or ribaldry , or atheistical drollery ; i. e. they study to annoy him with such discourse , as he is obliged ( though he were inwardly as great a villain as themselves ) to detest by his place and profession : a piece of breeding much like his , that would have refused to entertain a vestal with any other discourse , than by describing the rites of priapus , or the lascivious arts of cleopatra . and so i leave them to the correction of the publick rods : and 't is high time that authority check , and chastise the wantonness of this boyish humour . for the infection spreads and grows fashionable , and creeps out of cities into villages . to impeach religion is become the first exercise of wit , in which young gentlemen are to be disciplined ; and atheism is the only knowledge and accomplishment they gain by a gentile education ; and they have nothing to make them fancy themselves more witty and refined people , than illiterate peasants and mechanicks , but a readiness and pregnancy to rally upon religion : and he is a raw youth , and smells rank of his grandame and his catechism , that cannot resolve all the articles of his faith into the cheats and impostures of priests . and thus they live here till they have sinned , or fooled away all sense of honour and conscience ; and so return home useless , and unserviceable to their countrey ; and if they turn sots , they may prove less dangerous : but if not , they are prepared for any designs of mischief and publick disturbance . for at the same time they shake hands with religion , they bid adieu to loyalty ; in that whilst they own no tyes of conscience , they know no honesty but advantage ; and interest is the only endearment of their duty to their prince : and therefore , when-ever this happens to run counter to their loyalty , 't is then the strongest and most effectual inducement to any attempts of treason , and rebellion . and thus they may prove good subjects , as rogues and out-laws are , who will be honest when 't is their interest ; but when 't is not , then any thing is their duty , that contributes to their security . and with these men in all civil wars and dissentions of state , the strongest side has always the justest cause ; and if rebels prove successful against their lawful prince , they gain their assistance . and to these principles we must ascribe the unhappy success of the late rebellion : the silly and well meaning zealots were only abused by sly and crafty incendiaries for the compassing of their own ambitious ends , and by their councils only was the cause managed , advanced , and finished ; till they raised their own fortunes upon the ruines of the royal interest , and establish'd themselves in the royal power and dignity . and though the men and their designs are perished , yet their principles thrive and propagate ; and 't is strange , yet easie to observe , how the contempt of religion works men into a dislike of monarchy ; and i scarce ever met with any zealous common-wealths-man , whom i could not easily discover to have more of the atheist than the politician ; in brief , all men of this perswasion are so far from being inclined to love their prince , that they are engaged by their very principles to hate the vsurper : for , take away the divine institution of government , and the obligations of conscience to obedience , and then all government is vsurpation , and all sense of obedience folly : and princes have no other right to their crowns , but what is founded upon force and violence ; their empire was first gain'd by wars , butcheries , and massacres ; their diadems hang upon their swords ; and their thrones stand deep in humane blood ; and all kingdoms are nothing but societies of slaves and tyrants ; and if any subject can set himself free from his sovereigns oppression , he is the braver man ; and when he can win his crown , he deserves to wear it . and there is no man that laughs at the folly of religion , who is not angry at the superstition of government . and therefore i leave it to authority to consider , how much it concerns them to restrain the insolence of this wanton humour ; and to punish those , who make it their business to propagate irreligious principles , as the worst and most dangerous enemies to the state. but my scorn and indignation against the presumptuous lavishness of these redoubted wight swells this preface to too large and tedious a length ; and therefore , i shall only crave leave to premise this one caution for the advantage of the ensuing treatise , and so have done ; viz. that in the management of this debate , i have been careful to confine my discourse to the weightiest and most material considerations , and have industriously waved all matters of an inferiour and subordinate importance . for to what purpose is it to examine every little exception , and every gay and plausible appearance ; when the enquiry is so clearly determinable , by arguments of the greatest evidence and concernment ? and therefore i have only represented the inconsistency of liberty of conscience , with the first and fundamental laws of government . in which if i have spoken reason , i have , without any more ado , carried the cause ; if i have not , i am content to lose my labour . for there are no considerations of equal evidence and importance with those that relate to the peace and settlement of societies : so that , if those i have urged prove ineffectual , all others , drawn from less considerable topicks , would have been impertinent ; and so far from strengthning my discourse , that they would rather have abated of its demonstrative truth and evidence : for being in their own natures not capable of such enforcing and convictive proofs , to mix them with clearer and more certain reasonings , were only to allay their strength , and dilute their perspicuity . and for this reason have i purposely omitted the examination of that argument , that so strongly possesses the warm and busie brains of some undertaking men , viz. that liberty of conscience would be mightily conducive to the advancement of trade . for whether it be so , or so , it matters not , after it is proved to be apparently destructive of the peace of kingdoms . and though perhaps it might be no difficult task to prove the vanity of their conceit , yet , after this performance , it would be at least a trifling and frivolous undertaking ; because no man can be so utterly forsaken of all reason and discretion , as to think of promoting traffick by any ways that are destructive of the ends and interest of government . and therefore , if i have sufficiently proved , that liberty of conscience is so ; 't is but an idle speculation after that to enquire , what service it would do to the advancement of trade : because 't is already proved inconsistent with a greater good , than all the advantages of commerce can amount to . so that granting these projecting people all they can demand , and supposing their design as serviceable to the benefits of trade , as they pretend ; yet , what can be more shamefully imprudent , than to put the kingdom upon so great an hazard for so small an advantage ? certainly publick peace and settlement ( that is the first and fundamental end of all societies ) is to be valued above any advantages of wealth and trading : and therefore , if liberty of conscience as naturally tends to the disturbance of government , as it can to the advancement of trade ( if any thing may be supposed to contribute to the wealth of a nation that tends to the dissolution of its peace ) so vast a mischief must infinitely out-weigh this , and a thousand other lesser advantages : for there is nothing in the world of value enough to balance against peace , but peace it self . and therefore i confess i cannot but smile when i observe how some , that would be thought wonderfully grave and solemn statesmen , labour with mighty projects of setting up this and that manufacture , in their several respective towns and corporations ; and how eagerly they pursue these petty attempts beyond the great affairs of a more publick and vniversal concernment ; and how wisely they neglect the settlement of a whole nation , for the benefit of a village or burrough . if indeed the affairs of the kingdom were in a fix'd and establish'd condition , these attempts might then have been seasonable ; and the enriching of particular places would be an accession to the wealth and power of the whole kingdom . but whilst we are distracted among our selves , with such a strange variety of iealousies and animosities ; whilst the publick peace and settlement is so unluckily defeated by quarrels and mutinies of religion ; and whilst the consciences of men are acted by such peevish and ungovernable principles ; to erect and encourage trading combinations , is only to build so many nests of faction and sedition , and to enable these giddy and humoursom people to create publick disturbances . for 't is notorious , that there is not any sort of people so inclinable to seditious practices as the trading part of a nation ; and their pride and arrogance naturally increases with the improvement of their stock . and , if we reflect upon our late miserable distractions , 't is easie to observe , how the quarrel was chiefly hatch'd in the shops of tradesmen , and cherish'd by the zeal of prentice-boys , and city-gossips . and hence it is , that the fanatick party appears so vastly numerous and considerable , above and beyond their real number , partly because these bold and giddy people live in greater societies of men , and so are more observable ; whereas in country towns and villages their account is inconsiderable , and arises not ( to speak within compass ) above the proportion of one to twenty ; and partly because in those places where these vermine naturally breed and swarm , they are always most talkative , and clamorous , and full of buzze : and therefore , though their party be much the least , and the meanest interest ; yet whilst their number is conjectured by their noise , they make a greater appearance , than twice as many sober and peaceable men . riots and tumults are much more remarkable , than societies of quiet and composed people ; and a rout of unlucky boys and girls raise a greater noise ( especially when they wrangle among themselves ) than all the parish beside . but whether they are more or less considerable , 't is a very odd and preposterous piece of policy , to design the inriching of this sort of people , whilst their heads are distemper'd with religious lunacies : for it only puts weapons into the hands of madmen , wherewith they may assault their governours . their fundamental principles incline them to perverse and restless dispositions , that never are , nor will be , satisfied with any establish'd frame of things : and if the affairs of religion are not exactly model'd to their own nice and peremptory conceptions , that is ground enough to overturn the present settlement , and to new model the church by a more thorow reformation . now whilst men are under the power of this proud and peevish humour , wealth does but only pamper and encourage their presumption , and tempt them to a greater boldness and insolence against authority . and if their seditious preachers do but blow the trumpet to reformation ( i. e. to have every thing alter'd they dislike ) how easily may they fire these heady people into tumults and outrages ? how eagerly will they flow into their party in spight of all the power and opposition of their governours ? and how prodigally will they empty their bags , and bring in even their bodkins and thimbles , and spoons to carry on the cause ? he is a very silly man , and understands nothing of the follies , passions , and inclinations of humane nature , who fees not that there is no creature so ungovernable , as a wealthy fanatick . and therefore let not men flatter themselves with idle hopes of settlement , any other way , than by suppressing all these dissentions , and reducing the minds of men to an agreement and vnity in religious worship . for it is just as impossible to keep different factions of religion quiet and peaceable , as it is to make the common people wise men and philosophers . if indeed we could suppose them sober and discreet , it were then no great danger to leave them to their liberty ; but upon the same supposition we may as well let them loose from all the laws of government and policy : because if every private man had wit & honesty enough to govern himself and his own actions , there would be no need of publick laws and governours . and yet upon this impossible presumption stand all the pretenses for liberty of conscience , that , if men were permitted it , they would use it wisely and peaceably ; than which 't is hard to suppose a greater impossibility . for the conscience of the multitude is the same thing with their wisdom and discretion : and therefore , 't is as natural for them to fall into the snare of an abused and vicious conscience , as 't is to be rash & foolish : for an erroneous conscience is but one sort of folly , that relates to the iudgment of their moral actions ; in which they are as ignorant , and as likely to mistake as in any other affairs of humane life . there is no observation in the world establish'd upon a more certain and universal experience , than that the generality of mankind are not so obnoxious to any sort of follies and vices , as to wild and unreasonable conceits of religion ; and that , when their heads are possess'd with them , there are no principles so pregnant with mischief and disturbance as they . and if princes would but consider , how liable mankind are to abuse themselves with serious and conscientious villanies , they would quickly see it to be absolutely necessary to the peace and happiness of their kingdoms , that there be set up a more severe government over mens consciences and religious perswasions , than over their vices and immoralities . for , of all villains the well-meaning zealot is the most dangerous : such men have no checks of conscience , nor fears of miscarriage to damp their industry , but their godliness makes them bold and furious ; and , however their attempts succeed , they are sure of the rewards of saints and martyrs . and what so glorious as to lose their lives in the cause of god ? these men are ever prepared for any mischief , if they have but a few active and crafty knaves to manage and set them on : ( and there is never want of such in any common-wealth . ) and there needs no other motive to engage their zeal in any seditious attempt , than to instil into their minds the necessity of a thorow reformation ; and then you may carry them wheresoever you please , and they will never boggle at any mischief , out-rage , or rebellion to advance the cause . and therefore , it concerns the civil magistrate to beware of this sort of people above all others , as a party , that is always ready formed for any publick disturbance . one would think , the world were not now to be taught , that there is nothing so difficult to be managed as godly zeal , or to be appeased as religious dissentions : people ever did , and ever will pursue such quarrels with their utmost rage and fury ; and therefore let us be content to govern the world as it ever has been , and ever must be govern'd ; and not be so fond as to trouble our heads with contriving ways of settling a nation , whilst 't is unsettled by religion . agreement in this is the first , if not the only foundation of peace : and therefore , let that be first established upon firm and lasting principles ; ( which it easily may by severe laws faithfully executed , but otherwise never can . ) but till it is done , 't is just as wise and safe for a prince to enrich his subjects with trade and commerce , as 't is to load weak and unfinished foundations with great and weighty superstructures . to conclude , all arguments are to be considered in their proper place , and order : and 't is but an unskilful , and inartificial way of discoursing , to argue from less weighty and considerable matters against the first and fundamental reasons of things ; and yet of this preposterous method are those men guilty , who talk of the interests of trade in opposition to the interests of government : and therefore for a fuller answer to this , and all other the like pretenses , i shall now refer the reader to my book ; where i think i have proved enough to satisfie any man of an ordinary understanding , that indulgence and toleration is the most absolute sort of anarchy , and that princes may with less hazard give liberty to mens vices and debaucheries , than to their consciences . as for my method , 't is plain and familiar , and suited to every man's capacity ; i have reduced the state of the controversie to a few easie and obvious propositions ; under these i have couch'd all the particular matters concern'd in our present debates , and by analogy to their reasonableness have cleared off all difficulties and objections ; and have been careful all along to prove the absolute necessity of what i assert from the most important ends and designs of government , compared with the natural passions and inclinations of mankind . and whoever offers to talk of these affairs without special regard both to the nature of government , and to the nature of man , may amuse himself with the fine dreams and hypotheses of a warm brain ; but shall be certain to miss the necessary rules of life , and the most useful measures of practicable policy ; that are suited only to the humours and passions of men , and designed only to prevent their follies , and bridle their enormities . and therefore the main notion i have pursued has been to make out , how dangerous a thing liberty of conscience is , considering the tempers , and tendencies of humane nature , to the most necessary ends and designs of government . a vein of which reasoning i have been careful to run through all parts and branches of my discourse , it being vastly the most considerable , if not the only thing to be attended to in this enquiry . and as i have kept close to my main question , so have i cautiously avoided all other collateral and unnecessary disputes ; and have not confined my self to any hypothesis , nor determined any controversie , in which it was not immediately concern'd ; but have expressed my reasonings in so general terms , as that they might be equally forcible upon the minds of all men , of howsoever different perswasions in all other matters . and now i have no other favour , or civility , to request of the reader , than that he would suspend his iudgment , till he have seriously perused , and weighed all parts of the following treatise : but , if he shall pass sentence upon any part , before he has considered the whole , he will in all probability put himself to the pains of raising those objections , i have already answered to his hand ; and perhaps the next thing he condemns may be his own rashness . chap. i. a more general account of the necessity of an ecclesiastical power , or sovereignty over conscience in matters of religion . the contents . the competition between the power of princes , and the consciences of subjects , represented . the mischiefs that unavoidably follow upon the exemption of conscience from the iurisdiction of the supreme power . the absolute necessity of its being subject in affairs of religion to the governours of the common-wealth . this proved at large , because religion has the strongest influence upon the peace of kingdoms , and the interests of government . religion is so far from being exempted from the restraints of laws and penalties , that nothing more requires them . 't is more easie to govern mens vices than their consciences , because all men are bold and confident in their perswasions . the remiss government of conscience has ever been the most fatal miscarriage in all common-wealths . impunity of offenders against ecclesiastical laws , the worst sort of toleration . the mischiefs that ensue upon the permitting men the liberty of their consciences are endless . fanaticism a boundless folly. affairs of religion as they must be subject to the supreme civil power , so to none other . the civil and ecclesiastical iurisdictions issue from the same necessity of nature , and are founded upon the same reason of things . a brief account of the original of civil power . the original of ecclesiastical power the same . in the first ages of the world , the kingly power and priestly function were always vested in the same persons , and why . when they were separated in the iewish state , the supremacy was annexed to the civil power . and so continued until , and after our saviours birth . no need of his giving princes any new commission to exercise that power , that was antecedently vested in them by so unquestionable a right . and therefore the scripture rather supposes than asserts it . the argument against penal laws in religion from the practice of our saviour and his apostles , answered and confuted . the ecclesiastical iurisdiction of princes not derived from any grant of our saviours , but from the natural and antecedent rights of all sovereign power . christ and his apostles could not use any coercive iurisdiction , because they acted in the capacity of subjects . their threatnings of eternity carry in them as much compulsion upon conscience , as secular punishments . the power of the church purely spiritual . in the first ages of the christian church god supplied its want of civil iurisdiction by immediate and miraculous inflictions from heaven . diseases of the body the usual consequences of excommunication . and this had the same effect as temporal punishments . all this largely proved out of the writings of st. paul. when the emperors became christian , the ecclesiastical iurisdiction was reannext to the civil power . and so continued till the vsurpation of the bishops of rome . how since the reformation the ecclesiastical power of princes has been invaded by some pragmatical divines . their confidence has scared princes out of their natural rights . of the clause of exception annexed to the jejunium cecilianum . how the puritans used it to countenance all their unruly and seditious practices . a conclusion drawn from all the premisses for the absolute necessity of the ecclesiastical power of princes . § 1. notwithstanding that conscience is the best , if not the only security of government , yet has government never been controul'd or disturb'd so much by any thing as conscience . this has ever rival'd princes in their supremacy , and pretends to as uncontroulable an authority over all the actions and affairs of humane life , as the most absolute and unlimited power durst ever challenge . are governours gods vicegerents ? so is this . have they a power of deciding all controversies ? so has this . can they prescribe rules of virtue and goodness to their subjects ? so may this . can they punish all their criminal actions ? so can this . and are they subject and accountable to god alone ? so is this , that owns no superiour but the lord of consciences . and of the two conscience seems to be the greater sovereign , and to govern the larger empire . for whereas the power of princes is restrain'd to the outward actions of men , this extends its dominion to their inward thoughts : its throne is seated in their minds , and it exercises all that authority over their secret and hidden sentiments , that princes claim over their publick and visible practices . and upon this account is it set up upon all occasions to grapple with the scepters and swords of princes , and countermand any laws , they think good to prescribe ; and whenever subjects have a mind to controul or disobey their decrees , this is immediately prest and engaged to their party , and does not only dictate , but vouches all their remonstrances . do subjects rebel against their sovereign ? 't is conscience that takes up arms. do they murder kings ? 't is under the conduct of conscience . do they separate from the communion of the church ? 't is conscience that is the schismatick . do they tye themselves by one oath to contradict and evacuate another ? 't is conscience that imposes it . every thing any man has a mind to , is his conscience ; and murther , treason , and rebellion plead its authority . the annals and histories of all times and places are too sad a witness , that this great and sacred thing has ever been abused , either through the folly of some , or hypocrisie of others , to patronize the most desperate mischiefs , and villanies , that were ever acted . § 2. here then we see is a competition between the prerogative of the prince , and that of conscience , i. e. every private mans own judgment and perswasion of things : the judgment of the magistrate inclines him to command , that of the subject to disobey ; and the dictates of his conscience countermand the decrees of his prince . now is there not likely to be untoward doings , when two supreme powers thus clash and contradict each other ? for what power would be left to princes , if every private mans perswasion ( for that is his conscience ) may give check to their commands ? most mens minds or consciences are weak , silly , and ignorant things , acted by fond and absurd principles , and imposed upon by their vices and their passions ; so that were they entirely left to their own conduct , in what mischiefs and confusions must they involve all societies ? let authority command what it please , they would do what they list . and what is this but a state of perfect anarchy , in which every man does what is good in his own eyes ? and therefore whilst men contend for the sovereign empire of their consciences , and invest it with the royal supremacy , by making it subject and accountable to none but god alone , they do in effect but usurp their prince's crown , defie his authority , and acknowledge no governour but themselves . for seeing that conscience is nothing but the judgment and opinion of their own actions , if this be exempt from the commands of governours , and if men not only may , but always ought to comply with their own dictates , when they oppose their decrees , 't is easie to determine whether themselves or their governors be vested with the supreme authority . in brief , every single person is subject to two supreme powers , the laws of his prince , and the dictates of his conscience , i. e. to his own and his princes opinion : and therefore if the supreme power of the prince must give place to that of his conscience , it ceases upon that score to be supreme ; because there is a superior authority that can countermand all its laws and constitutions . what then is to be done in this case ? who shall arbitrate between these two mighty rival powers , and so justly assign the true bounds of their respective dominions ; that princes may never intrench upon the rights of conscience , nor conscience lay waste the rights of princes , but both may act within their proper spheres without invading each others territories ? for whenever their powers happen to interfere , the quarrel quickly proceeds to all the mischiefs and confusions of war. for there is not any thing so tender , or so unruly as conscience : if authority curb it too severely , it grows wild and furious , and impatient of all restraints ; if it permit it an unbridled liberty , it soon runs it self into all the mischiefs and enormities in the world . and therefore it must be managed with equal tenderness and severity : and as it must be guided by wise and sober laws , else it grows giddy and exorbitant ; so must it not be provoked to resistance by tyranny and oppression : for if it once put the sword into subjects hands , it proves of all rebels the most fatal and implacable , and is the best commander of a rebellious army in the world . we see then that 't is a matter of equal difficulty and importance to avoid all the mischiefs and calamities that naturally follow upon the contentions of these two supreme powers . 't is difficult to bring them to terms of accommodation , because neither of them will own any superiour that may umpire their controversie ; and yet that this should be done is absolutely necessary to the peace , settlement , and tranquillity of all common-wealths . § 3. and therefore 't is the design of this discourse by a fair and impartial debate to compose all their differences , adjust all their quarrels and contentions , and settle things upon their true and proper foundations . which i think may be effectually enough perform'd by these two considerations . 1. by proving it to be absolutely necessary to the peace and government of the world , that the supreme magistrate of every common-wealth should be vested with a power to govern and conduct the consciences of subjects in affairs of religion . 2. by shewing this to be so certain and undoubted a truth , that it is and must be acknowledged by its fiercest adversaries ; and that those who would deprive the supreme civil power of its authority in reference to the conduct of the worship of god , are forced to allow it in other more material parts of religion ; though they are both liable to the same inconveniences and objections . and this will oblige me to state the true extent of the magistrates power over conscience in reference to divine worship , by shewing it to be the very same with his power over conscience in matters of morality , and all other affairs of religion . under one of which two considerations i shall have occasion to state the most material questions , and to answer the most considerable objections , that occur in this controversie . and i do not question but things may be made out with that demonstrative evidence , and settled upon such safe and moderate principles , as may abundantly satisfie every mans conscience , how nice and curious soever , provided it be not debauch'd with vice , and wicked principles ; . but if it be , then 't is easie to make it appear both the magistrates duty and interest to punish such vicious and diseased conscience as much as all other immorality . § 4. first then 't is absolutely necessary to the peace and tranquillity of the commonwealth , which , though it be the prime and most important end of government , can never be sufficiently secured , unless religion be subject to the authority of the supreme power , in that it has the strongest influence upon humane affairs ; and therefore if the sovereign power cannot order and manage it , it would be but a very incompetent instrument of publick happiness , would want the better half of it self , and be utterly weak and ineffectual for the ends of government . for 't is certain , nothing more governs the minds of men than the apprehensions of religion : this leads or drives them any way . and as true piety secures the publick weal by taming and civilizing the passions of men , and inuring them to a mild , gentle and governable spirit : so superstition and wrong notions of god and his worship , are the most powerful engines to overturn its settlement . and therefore unless princes have power to bind their subjects to that religion that they apprehend most advantageous to publick peace and tranquillity , and restrain those religious mistakes that tend to its subversion ; they are no better than statues and images of authority , and want that part of their power that is most necessary to a right discharge of their government . for what if the minds of men happen to be tainted with such furious and boysterous conceptions of religion , as incline them to stubborness and sedition , and make them unmanageable to the laws of government ; shall not a prince be allowed to give check to such unruly and dangerous perswasions ? if he may , then 't is clear that he is endued with a power to conduct religion , and that must be subject to his dominion , as well as all other affairs of state. but if he may not , then is he obliged in some cases tamely to permit his subjects to ruine and overturn the common-wealth . for if their wild and capricious humours are not severely bridled by the strictest laws and penalties , they soon grow headstrong and unruly , become always troublesome , and often fatal to princes . the minds of the multitude are of a fierce and eager temper , apt to be driven without bounds and measures , whithersoever their perswasions hurry them : and when they have overheated their unsettled heads with religious rage and fury , they grow wild , talkative and ungovernable ; and in their mad and raving fits of zeal break all the restraints of government , and forget all the laws of order and sobriety . religion sanctifies all their passions : anger , malice , and bitterness are holy fervors in the cause of god. this cancels and dispenses with all the obligations of sobriety : and what has prudence to do with religion ? this is too hot and eager to be tyed up to its flat and dull formalities . zeal for the glory of god will both excuse and justifie any enormity . there can be no faction or rebellion in carrying on the interests of the godly party , and the great work of a thorough reformation must not be trusted to the care of carnal and lukewarm politicians . and by these and the like pretences do they easily destroy the reverence of all things sacred and civil , to propagate any wild propositions ; are arm'd with religion , and led on by the spirit of god to disturb the publick peace , kill kings , and overthrow kingdoms . and this has ever been the bane and reproach of religion in all times and places : and there is scarce a nation in the world that has not felt the miseries and confusions of an holy war : and the annals of all ages are full of sad stories to this purpose . § 5. and therefore to exempt religion and the consciences of men from the authority of the supreme power is but to expose the peace of kingdoms to every wild and fanatick pretender , who may , when ever he pleases , under pretences of reformation thwart and unsettle government without controul ; seeing no one can have any power to restrain the perswasions of his conscience . and religion will be so far from being at liberty from the authority of the civil power , that nothing in the world will be found to require more of its care and influence , because there is not any other vice to which the vulgar sort of men are more prone , than to superstition or debauched conceptions concerning god and his worship , nor any that more inclines them to an unruly and seditious temper . it inflames their crazy heads with a furious and sectarian zeal , and adopts their rankest and most untoward passions into the duties of religion . and when passion becomes holy , then it can never be exorbitant ; but the more furious and ungovernable it is , so much the more vehement is their zeal for the glory of god ; and they that are most peevish and refractory , are upon that account the most godly . and then all passion and stubbornness in religious quarrels must be christned zeal , all zeal must be sacred , and nothing that is sacred can be excessive . and now when men act furiously upon these mistakes ( as all that are possessed with them must ) what can the issue be but eternal miseries and confusions ? every opinion must make a sect , and every sect a faction , and every faction , when it is able , a war , and every war is the cause of god , and the cause of god can never be prosecuted with too much violence . and then all sobriety is lukewarmness , to be obedient to government carnal complyance , and not to proceed to rebellion for carrying on the great work of a thorough reformation , is to want zeal for the glory of god. and thus are their vices sanctified by their consciences , malice , folly , and madness are ever the prevailing ingredients of their superstitious zeal , and religion only obliges them to be more sturdy and impudent against the laws of government ; and they are now encouraged to cherish those passions in spight of authority , from which the severity of laws might effectually have restrain'd them , were it not for the cross obligations of an untoward conscience . § 6. and for this reason is it , that 't is found so nice and difficult a thing to govern men in their perswasions about religion , beyond all the other affairs and transactions of humane life ; because erroneous consciences are bold and confident enough to outface authority : whereas persons of debauch'd and scandalous lives , being condemn'd by their own consciences as well as the publick laws , can have nothing to bear them up against the will of their superiors , and restraints of government . but when mens minds are possest with such unhappy principles of religion as are more destructive of the peace and order of civil society than open lewdness and debauchery , and when the vertues of the godly are more pregnant with villany and mischief than the vices of the wicked , and when their consciences are satisfied in their mischievous and ungovernable perswasions , and when they seriously believe that they approve themselves to god by being refractory and irreclamable in their fanatick zeal , then how easie is it to defie authority , and trample upon all its threatnings and penalities ? and those laws , that would awe a prophane and irreligious person at least into an outward compliance , shall but exasperate a boisterous conscience into a more vehement and seditious disobedience . now when 't is so difficult for magistrates either to remove these religious vices , or to bridle their unruliness , they must needs find it an incomparably harder task to restrain the extravagancies of zeal , than of lewdness and debauchery . and therefore seeing the multitude is so inclinable to these mistakes of religion , and seeing , when they are infected with them , they grow so turbulent and unruly , i leave it to governours themselves to judge , whether it does not concern them with as much vigilance and severity either to prevent their rise or suppress their growth , as to punish any the foulest crimes of immorality ? and if they would but seriously consider into what exorbitances peevish and untoward principles about religion naturally improve themselves , they could not but perceive it to be as much their concernment to punish them with the severest inflictions , as any whatsoever principles of rebellion in the state. § 7. and this certainly has ever been one of the most fatal miscarriages of all governours , in that they have not been aware of this fierce and implacable enemy ; but have gone about to govern unruly consciences by more easie and remiss laws , than those that are only able to suppress scandalous and confessed villanies , and have thought them sufficiently restrain'd by threatning punishments , without inflicting them . and indeed in most kingdoms ( so little have princes understood their own interests in reference to religion ) ecclesiastical laws have been set up only for scar-crows , being established rather for shew and form sake , than with any design of giving them life , by putting them into execution ; and if any were so hardy as not to be scared into obedience by the severity of their threatnings , they have been emboldned to disobedience by the remisness of their execution , till they have not only plaid with the law it self as a sensless trifle , but have scorn'd the weakness of the power that set it up . for there is nothing more certain in experience , than that impunity gives not only warranty but encouragement to disobedience ; and by habituating men to controul the edicts of authority , teaches them by degrees to despise it . and this is the main reason why ecclesiastical laws have generally proved such ineffectual instruments of uniformity , because they have either been weakned through want of execution , or in a manner cancell'd by the oppositions of civil constitutions . for when laws are bound under severe penalties , and when the persons , who are to take cognisance of the crime , have not power enough to punish it , or are perpetually check'd and controul'd by a stronger power , no wonder if the laws be affronted and despised ; and if , instead of bringing mens minds to compliance and subjection , they exasperate them into open contumacy . restraint provokes their stubbornness , and yet redresses not the mischief . and therefore it were better to grant an uncontroul'd liberty by declaring for it , than , after having declared against it , to grant it by silence and impunity . the prohibition disobliges dissenters , and that is one evil ; and the impunity allows them toleration , and that is a greater : and where governours permit , what their laws forbid , there the common-wealth must at once lose all the advantages of restraint , and suffers all the inconveniences of liberty . so that as they would expect peace and settlement , they must be sure at first to bind on their ecclesiastical laws with the streightest knot , and afterward to keep them in force and countenance by the severest execution ; in that wild and fanatick consciences are too headstrong to be curb'd with an ordinary severity ; & therefore their restraints must be proportion'd to their unruliness : and they must be managed with so much a greater care and strictness , than all other principles of publick disturbance , by how much they are more dangerous & unruly . § 8. for if conscience be ever able to break down the restraints of government , and all men have licence to follow their own perswasions , the mischief is infinite , and the folly endless ; and they seldom cease to wander from folly to folly , till they have run themselves into all the whimsies and enormities , that can debauch religion , or annoy the publick peace . the giddy multitude are of a restless and stragling humour ; and yet withalso ignorant and injudicious , that there is nothing so strange and uncouth , which they will not take up with zeal and confidence : insomuch that there never yet was any common-wealth , that gave a real liberty to mens imaginations , that was not suddenly over-run with numberless divisions , and subdivisions of sects : as was notorious in the late confusions , when liberty of conscience was laid as the foundation of settlement . how was sect built upon sect , and church upon church , till they were advanced to such a height of folly , that the usurpers themselves could find no other way to work their subversion , and put an end to their extravagancies , but by overturning their own foundations , and checking their growth by laws and penalties ? the humour of fanaticising is a boundless folly , it knows no restraints ; and if it be not kept down by the severity of governours , it grows and encreases without end , or limit , and never ceases to swell it self , till it has broke down all the banks and restraints of government . thus when the disciplinarians had in pursuit of their own peevish and unreasonable principles divided from the church of england , others upon a farther improvement of the same principles subdivided from them ; every new opinion was enough to found a new church , and sect was spawn'd out of sect , till there were almost as many churches as families : for when they were once parted from the order & sobriety of the church they lived in , nothing could set bounds to their wild and violent imaginations . § 9. schismaticks always run themselves into the same excess in the church as rebels and seditious persons do in the state , who out of a hatred to tyranny are restless till they have dissolved the common-wealth into anarchy & confusion ; and , because some kingly governments have proved tyrannical , will allow no free states but under republicks . as was notorious in all the apologies for the late usurpers , who took it for granted in general , that all government under a single person was slavish and oppressive without respect to its particular constitutions ; and that the very name of a common-wealth was a sufficient preservation of the peoples liberties , notwithstanding that those who managed it were never so imperious and arbitrary in the exercise of their power . and in the same manner our church dissenters , out of abhorrency to the papal tyranny and usurpation upon mens understandings , never think the liberty of their consciences sufficiently secured , till they have shaken off all subjection to humane authority : and because the church of rome by her unreasonable impositions has invaded the fundamental liberties of mankind , they presently conclude all restraints upon licentious practices and perswasions about religion under the hated name of popery . and some theological empericks have so possess'd the peoples heads with this fond conceit , that they will see no middle way between spiritual tyranny , and spiritual anarchy , and so brand all restraint of government in affairs of religion as if it were antichristian , and never think themselves far enough from rome , till they are wandred as far as munster . whereas the church of england in her first reformation was not so wild as to abolish all ecclesiastical authority , but only removed it from those who had unjustly usurp'd it to its proper seat , and restrain'd it within its due bounds and limits : and because the church of rome had clogg'd christianity with too many garish and burdensome ceremonies , they did not immediately strip her naked of all modest and decent ornaments out of an over-hot opposition to their too flanting pomp and vanity , but only cloathed her in such a dress , as became the gravity and sobriety of religion . and this is the wisdom and moderation of our church to preserve us sober between two such unreasonable extremes . § 10. but not to run too hastily into particular disputes , 't is enough at present to have proved in general the absolute necessity that affairs of religion should be subject to government ; and then if they be exempt from the jurisdiction of the civil power , i shall demand , whether they are subject to any other power , or to none at all ? if the former , then the supreme power is not supreme , but is subject to a superiour in all matters of religion , or rather ( what is equally absurd ) there would be two supreme powers in every common-wealth ; for it the princes jurisdiction be limited to civil affairs , and the concerns of religion be subject to another government , then may subjects be obliged to ( what is impossible ) contradictory commands : and at the same time the civil magistrate requires him to defend his country against an invasion , the ecclesiastical governour may command him to abandon its defence , for the carrying on an holy war in the holy land , in order to the recovery of our saviour's sepulchre from the possession of the turks and saracens . but seeing no man can be subject to contradictory obligations , 't is by consequence utterly impossible he should be subject to two supreme powers . if the latter , then the former argument returns ; and as to one half of the concerns of the common-wealth there must be a perfect anarchy , and no government at all . and there is no provision to be made against all those publick mischiefs and disturbances that may arise from errors and enormities in religion ; the common-wealth must for ever be exposed to the follies of enthusiasts , and villanies of impostors ; and any man , that can but pretend conscience , may whenever he pleases endeavour its ruine : so that if princes should forego their sovereignty over mens consciences in matters of religion , they leave themselves less power than is absolutely necessary to the peace & defence of the common-wealths they govern . in brief , the supreme government of every common-wealth , wherever it is lodged , must of necessity be universal , absolute , and uncontroulable , in all afairs whatsoever , that concern the interests of mankind , and the ends of government : for if it be limited , it may be controul'd : but 't is a thick and palpable contradiction to call such a power supreme , in that whatever controuls it must as to that case be its superiour . and therefore affairs of religion being so strongly influential upon affairs of state , and having so great a power either to advance or hinder the publick felicity of the common-wealth , they must be as uncontroulably subject to the supreme power as all other civil concerns ; because otherwise it will not have authority enough to secure the publick interest of the society , to attain the necessary and most important ends of its institution . § 11. now from these premisses we may observe , that all supreme power ; both in civil and ecclesiastical affairs , issues from the same original , and is founded upon the same reason of things ; namely the indispensable necessity of society to the preservation of humane nature , and of government to the preservation of humane society : a supreme power being absolutely necessary to the decision of all those quarrels and controversies , that are naturally consequent upon the passions , appetites , and follies of men , there being no other way of ending their differences but by the decrees of a final & unappealable judicature . for if every man were to be his own judge , mens determinations would be as contradictory as their judgments , & their judgments as their humours or interests ; and so must their dissentions of necessity be endless : and therefore to avoid these and all other inconveniences that would naturally follow upon a state of war , it was necessary there should be one supreme and publick judgment , to whose determinations the private judgment of every single person should be obliged to submit it self . and hence the wisdom of providence , knowing to what passions and irregularities mankind is obnoxious , never suffered them to live without the restraints of government ; but in the beginning of things so ordered affairs , that no man could be born into the world without being subject to some superior : every father being by nature vested with a right to govern his children . and the first governments in the world were established purely upon the natural rights of paternal authority , which afterward grew up to a kingly power by the increase of posterity ; and he that was at first but father of a family , in process of time , as that multiplied , became father of a city , or province : and hence it came to pass that in the first ages of the world , monarchy was its only government , necessarily arising out of the constitution of humane nature , it being so natural for families to enlarge themselves into cities by uniting into a body according to their several kindreds , whence by consequence the supreme head of those families must become prince and governour of a larger & more diffused society . and therefore cedrenus makes adam the first monarch in the world , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and thus afterwards in the division of the earth among the posterity of noah , the heads of families became kings and monarchs of the nations of which they were founders , from whence were propagated the several kingdoms of the first and elder times ; as appears not only from the mosaick history , but also from all other the best and most ancient records of the first ages of the world : but as for common-wealths , they are comparatively of a very late discovery , being first contriv'd among the grecians , whose democracies and optimacies were made out of the ruines of monarchick government ; which was but sutable to the proud , factious , and capricious humour of that nation , where scarce any one could pretend to a little skill in poetry or wrestling ( their two greatest accomplishments ) but he must immediately be an vndertaker for new modelling the common-wealth ; which doubtless was one of the main causes of their perpetual confusions , and frequent charges in government . § 12. having thus firmly founded all civil government upon paternal authority , i may now proceed to shew , that all ecclesiastical power bottoms upon the same foundation : for as in the first ages of the world , the fathers of families were vested with a kingly power over their own posterity ; so also were they with the priestly office , executing all the holy functions of priesthood in their own persons , as appears from the unanimous testimony of histories both sacred and prophane . thus we find all the ancient patriarchs priests to their own families ; which office descended together with the royal dignity to the first-born of each family . and this custom of investing the sovereign power with the supreme priesthood , was ( as divers authors both ancient and modern observe ) universally practis'd over all kingdoms of the world for well nigh 2500 years , without any one president to the contrary . in that among all societies of men there is as great a necessity of publick worship , as of publick justice ; the power whereof , because it must be seated somewhere , can properly belong to him alone , in whom the supreme power resides ; in that he alone having authority to assign to every subject his proper function , and among others this of the priesthood ; the exercise whereof as he has power to transfer to another , so may he , if he please , reserve it to himself . and therefore this the wisdom of the elder ages always practised , in order to the better security of their government ; as well knowing the tendency of superstition , and false notions of the divine worship , to tumults and seditions ; and therfore , to prevent the disturbances that might spring from factions in religion , they were sollicitous to keep its management in their own immediate disposal . and though in the jewish common-wealth , the priestly office was upon reasons peculiar to that state separated by a divine positive command from the kingly power ; yet the power and jurisdiction of the priest remained still subject to the sovereign prince , their king always exercising a supremacy over all persons , and in all causes ecclesiastical : nothing can be more unquestionable than the precedents of david , solomon , hezekiah , iehu , iehosaphat , iosiah , &c. who exercised as full a legislative power in affairs of religion , as in affairs of state. they alone restrain'd and punish'd whatever tended to the subversion of the publick and establish'd religion ; they suppress'd innovations , reform'd corruptions , ordered the decencies and solemnities of publick worship , instituted new laws and ceremonies , and conducted all the concerns of religion by their own power and authority . now there is nothing that can be pretended against the ecclesiastical jurisdiction of christian magistrates , that might not with as great a shew of reason have been urged against these jewish kings . § 13. and thus were the affairs of religion in all nations govern'd by the supreme power till our blessed saviour's birth , who came into the world to establish new laws of religion , and not to set up any new models of politie . he came not to unsettle the foundations of government , or to diminish the natural rights of princes , and settle the conduct of humane affairs upon new principles , but left the government of the world in the same condition he found it : all his discourses were directed to private persons , and such whose duty it was to obey , and not command ; and therefore though we find him every where highly solicitous to press men to obedience in general , ( and perhaps it would be no easie task to find out any professors of the art of policy , either ancient or modern , that have carried the doctrine of obedience so high as the sermons of our saviour , and the writings of his apostles ) yet no where he takes upon him to settle , much less to limit the prerogatives of princes ; and therefore the government of religion , being vested in them by an antecedent and natural right , must without all controversie belong to them , till it is derogated from them by some superiour authority : so that unless our saviour had expresly disrobed the royal power of its ecclesiastical jurisdiction , nothing else can alienate it from their prerogative . and therefore 't is no wonder if he left no commands to the civil magistrate for the right government of religion ; for to what purpose should he give them a new commission to exercise that power , that was already so firmly establish'd in the world by the unalterable dictates of natural reason , and universal practice , and consent of nations : it being so clearly inseparable from the supreme power in every common-wealth , that it loses both its supremacy , and its usefulness , unless it be universal and unlimited ? in that the end of all government is to secure the peace and tranquillity of the publick ; and therefore it must have power to manage and order every thing that is serviceable to that end . so that it being so clearly evident from the experience of mankind , and from the nature of the thing it self , that nothing has a stronger influence upon the publick interests of a nation , than the well or ill management of religion ; its conduct must needs be as certain and inseparable a right of the supreme power in every common-wealth , as the legislative authority it self ; without which 't is utterly impossible there should be any government at all . and therefore the scripture seems rather to suppose than assert the ecclesiastical jurisdiction of princes . what else means that promise , that kings shall be nursing fathers to the church of god , unless by their power they may cherish and defend the true religion , and protect it from being destroyed by hereticks and seducers ? what does the scripture mean when it styles our saviour king of kings , and makes princes his vicegerents here on earth ? what means the apostle , when he says , kings are appointed to this end , that under them we may live a quiet and peaceable life , not only in all honesty , but in all godliness too ? where we see , that the propagation of godliness is as much the duty of governours , as the preservation of justice ; neither of which can a prince ( as such ) effectually promote , but by the proper effects of his power , laws and penalties . besides all which , all the power of the common-wealth our saviour lived in , was fall'n into such mens hands , that would be so far from concerning themselves in the defence , protection , and propagation of christianity , that he knew they would exert the utmost of their force to suppress and destroy it . now to what purpose should he entrust them with a commission to govern his church , when he knew they would labour its utter ruine and destruction ? and hence was there no other peaceable method to propagate the christian faith in the world , but by the patience and sufferings of its professors : and therefore our saviour , to secure his religion from the reproach of being factious and seditious against the state , was sollicitous above all things to arm them with meekness and patience ; and to this purpose he gave them glorious promises to encourage their submission to their unhappy fate , and severe injunctions to secure their obedience to all the commands of lawful superiours , except when they run directly cross to the interest of the gospel ; which as the posture of affairs then stood , was incomparably the most effectual , as well as most innocent way of its propagation . § 14. and therefore 't is but an idle and impertinent plea that some men make for liberty of conscience , when they would restrain the magistrates power so , as to make use of no other means than what our saviour and his apostles used to convince and convert men : an argument that much resembles that , which they urge with so much popular noise and confidence against that little grandeur & authority that is left to the governours of our church ; because forsooth the apostles , by reason of the unhappy juncture of affairs in their times , lived in a mean and persecuted condition ; and therefore what was their calamity , these men would make our duty : but it were to be wished they would pursue their argument to all the purposes for which it may as rationally serve : and so they must sell their lands , and bring the money and lay it at the bishops feet ; they must pass away all their proprieties , and have all things in common , and part them to all men as every man has need , because the primitive christians did so . at so prodigious a rate of impertinency do men talk , when their passions dictate their discourses ; and to so fine a pass would the affairs of christendom be brought by this trifling pretence of reducing the state of the church to its primitive practice in all accidents and circumstances of things . but yet i suppose these men themselves would scarce imitate the practice of our saviour and his apostles in this particular ; for if the scribes and pharisees were now in being , i hope they would not allow them the liberty openly to blaspheme the name of iesus , and to persecute all that would not believe him an impostor ; which though they did familiarly in his own time , yet he never went about to restrain their blasphemies by laws and punishments : and therefore i only demand , whether the civil magistrate may make penal laws against swearing and blasphemy , and such other irreligious debaucheries ? if he may , why then they are matters that as directly and immediately relate to religion , as any rites and ceremonies of worship whatsoever ; and for the government of which they are as utterly to seek for any precedent of our saviour and his apostles . nay more , if this argument were of any force , it would equally deprive the magistrate of any power to compel his subjects to obedience to any of the moral precepts of the gospel by secular laws and punishments ; because our saviour and his apostles never did it : especially when all matters of morality do as really belong to our spiritual concerns , as any thing that relates immediately to divine worship , and affairs of meer religion ; and therefore if the civil magistrate may not compel his subjects to a right way of worship with the civil sword , because this is of a spiritual concernment ( as is pretended : ) upon the same ground , neither may he make use of the same force to compel men to duties of morality , because they also equally relate to their spiritual interests : besides , the magistrates authority in both is founded upon the same principle , viz. the absolute necessity of their due management in order to the peace and preservation of the common-wealth . we derive not therefore his ecclesiastical jurisdiction from any grant of our saviours , but from an antecedent right wherewith all sovereign power was indued before ever he was born into the world ; forasmuch as the same providence , that intrusted princes with the government of humane affairs , must of necessity have vested them in at least as much power , as was absolutely necessary to the nature and ends of government . § 15. but further yet , all the ways our saviour has appointed in the gospel for the advancement and propagation of religion , were prescribed to subjects , & not to governours ; and this indeed is certain , that no private person can have any power to compel men to any part of the doctrine , worship , or discipline of the gospel ; for if he had , he would upon that very account cease to be a private person , and be vested with a civil power . but that no magistrate may do this , will remain to be proved , till they can produce some express prohibition of our saviour to restrain him : and till that be done , 't is but a strange rate of arguing , when they would prove that magistrates may not use any coercive power to promote the interests of religion , because this is forbidden to their subjects ; especially when 't is to be considered , that christ and his apostles acted themselves in the capacity of subjects to the common-wealth they lived in , and so could neither use themselves , nor impart to others any coercive power for the advancement , and propagation of their doctrine ; but were confined to such prudent and peaceable methods , as were lawful for persons in their condition to make use of , i. e. humble intreaties , and perswasions . our saviour never took any part of the civil power upon himself , and upon that score could not make penal and coercive laws ; the power of coertion being so certainly inseparable from the supreme civil power : but though he back'd not his commandments with temporal punishments , because his kingdom was not of this world ; yet he enforced them with the threatnings of eternity , which carry with them more compulsion upon mens consciences than any civil sanctions can : for the only reason why punishments are annex'd to laws , is because they are strong motives to obedience ; and therefore when our savour tied his laws upon mankind under eternal penalties , he used as much force to drive us to obedience , as if he had abetted them with temporal inflictions : so that the only reason why he bound not the precepts of the gospel upon our consciences by any secular compulsories , was not because compulsion was an improper way to put his laws in execution , for then he had never established them with more enforcing sanctions ; but only because himself was not invested with any secular power , and so could not use those methods of government , that are proper to its jurisdiction . § 16. and therefore the power , wherewith christ intrusted the governours of his church in the apostolical age , was purely spiritual ; they had no authority to inflict temporal punishments , or to force men to submit to their canons , laws and penalties ; they only declared the laws of god , and denounced the threatnings annexed to them , having no coercive power to inflict the judgments they declared , and leaving the event of their censures to the divine jurisdiction . though alas ! all this was too weak to attain the ends of discipline ( viz. to reclaim the offending person , and by example of his censure to awe others into obedience ) and could have but little influence upon the most stubborn and notorious offenders . for to what purpose should they drive one from the communion of the church , that has already renounced it ? to what purpose should they deny him the instruments and ministries of religion , that cares not for them ? to what purpose should they turn him out of their society , that has already prevented them by forsaking it ? how should offenders be reclaim'd , by being condemn'd to what they chuse ? how should they be scared by threatnings , that they neither fear nor believe ? and if they will turn apostates , how can they be awed back into their faith by being told they are so ? and therefore because of the weakness of this spiritual government to attain the ends of discipline , and because that the governours of the church being subject to those of the common-wealth , they were not capable of any coercive power ; 't is wonderfully remarkable how god himself was pleased to supply their want of civil jurisdiction by his own immediate providence , and in a miraculous manner to inflict the judgments they denounced ; that if their censures could not affright refractory offenders into obedience , his dreadful execution of them might . for 't is notoriously evident from the best records of the primitive and apostolical ages , that the divine providence was pleased to abet the censures of the church by immediate and miraculous inflictions from heaven . in those times torments and diseases of the body were the usual consequents of excommunication ; and this was as effectual to awe men into subjection to the ecclesiastical government , as if it had been endued with coercive iurisdiction . for this consists only in a power of inflicting temporal punishments ; and therefore when the anathema's of the church were attended with such inflictions , criminals must have as much reason to dread the rod of the apostles , as the sword of the civil magistrate , in that it carried with it a power of inflicting temporal penalties , either of death , as on ananias and sapphira , or of diseases , as on elymas the sorcerer . and this is that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 wherewith st. paul so often threatens to lash the factious corinthians into a more quiet and peaceable temper . thus 1 cor. 4. 21. what will ye ? shall i come unto you with a rod , or in love , and in the spirit of meekness ? i. e. consider with your selves , that seeing i have determined to visit the church of corinth , whether when i come you had rather i should chastise you with the apostolical rod by exercising my power of inflicting punishments , and by consigning the refractory to those sharp and grievous diseases that are wont immediately to follow apostolical censures ; or whether i should come with a more gentle and merciful design without being forced by your stubborness upon a necessity of using this severity among you ? as you behave your selves , so may you expect to find me at my coming . and thus again , 2 cor. 10. 6. he threatens them with his being in a readiness ( if he should come among them ) to revenge all their disobedience : and upon this account he immediately professes himself not ashamed to boast of his power and authority in the church . and in the 13. chapter of the same epistle , he again shakes the same rod over them , threatning , that if their refractoriness force him to strike them with some judgment , that it should be a sharp and severe one : if i come again i will not spare , since ye seek a proof of christ speaking in me . these extraordinary inflictions were signs and evidences of his apostleship . and he would make them know , that he was commissioned by christ to teach and govern their church , by making them to feel the sad effects of his miraculous power , if nothing else would satisfie them about the right of his authority . and to the same purpose is the same apostles command to the same church concerning the incestuous corinthian , 1 cor. 5. 5. that they should deliver him to satan for the destruction of the flesh , i. e. that they should denounce the sentence of excommunication against him , which would amount to no smaller a punishment , than his being resign'd up to the power and possession of some evil spirit , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , chrysost. in 1. ad cor. hom. 15. to be tormented with ulcers , or some other bodily diseases and inflictions , which was then the usual consequent of excommunication . the end of all which is , as immediately follows , the destruction of the flesh , that the spirit might be saved in the day of the lord iesus , i. e. that being humbled and brought to a due sense of his sin by the sadness of his condition , and the heavy strokes of this cruel executioner of the divine justice , this might be a means of working him to repentance and reformation . and to the same end did the same apostle deliver hymeneus and alexander unto satan , that they might learn not to blaspheme ; that being vexed and tormented by some evil spirit , this might take down their proud and haughty stomachs , and make them cease to traduce and disparage his apostolical authority , when they had smarted so severely for contradicting it . and thus was the divine providence pleased in the first ages of the church , when it wanted the assistance of the civil magistrate , to supply that defect by his own almighty power : so necessary is a coercive jurisdiction to the due government and discipline of the church , that god himself was fain to bestow it on the apostles in a miraculous manner . and thus was the primitive discipline maintain'd by miracles of severity , as long as it wanted the sword of the civil power . but when christianity had once prevail'd and triumphed over all the oppositions of pagan superstition , and had gain'd the empire of the world into its own possession , and was become the imperial religion , then began its government to re-settle where nature had placed it , and the ecclesiastical jurisdiction was annexed to the civil power : for as soon as the emperours thought themselves concern'd to look to its government , and protection , and were willing to abet the spiritual power of the clergy with their secular authority ; then began the divine providence to withdraw the miraculous power of the church ( in the same manner as he did by degrees all the other extraordinary gifts of the apostolical age , as their necessity ceased ) as being now as well supplied by the natural & ordinary power of the prince . so that though the exercise of the ministerial function still continued in the persons , that were thereunto originally commissioned by our saviour , the exercise of its authority and jurisdiction was restored to the imperial diadem ; and the bishops became then ( as they are now ) ministers of state as well as religion , and challenged not any secular power , but what they derived from the prince : who , supposing them best able to understand and manage the interests of religion , granted them commissions for the government of the church under himself , and vested them with as much coercive power , as was necessary for the execution of their office and jurisdiction : in the same manner as judges are deputed by the supreme authority of every common-wealth to govern the affairs of justice , and to inflict the penalties of the law upon delinquents : so that bishops neither have , nor ever had any temporal authority , but only as they are the kings ecclesiastical judges , appointed by him to govern affairs of religion , as civil or secular judges are to govern affairs of justice . § 17. and now that the government of all the affairs of the church devolved upon the royal authority assoon as it became christian , is undeniably evident , from all the laws and records of the empire : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : from the time that the emperors became christian , the disposal and government of church affairs depended entirely on their authority : constantine was no sooner settled in his imperial throne , but he took the settlement of all ecclesiastical matters into his own cognizance : he called synods and councils , in order to the peace and government of the church , he ratified their canons into laws , he prohibited the conventicles of the donatists , and demolish'd their meeting-houses , he made edicts concerning festivals , the rites of sepulture , the immunities of churches , the authority of bishops , the priviledges of the clergy , and divers other things appertaining to the outward polity of the church . in the exercise of which jurisdiction he was carefully followed by all his successours : which cannot but be known to every man that is not as utterly ignorant of the civil law , as he in the comedy who supposed corpus iuris civilis to be a dutchman . the code , the authenticks , the french capitulars are full of ecclesiastical laws and constitutions . the first book of the code treats of nothing but religion , and the rites and ceremonies of publick worship , the priviledges of ecclesiastical men and things , the distinct offices and functions of the several degrees in the ecclesiastical hierarchy , and the power and jurisdiction of bishops both in civil and religious affairs , and infinite other things that immediately concern the interests of religion . and then as for the authenticks , ecclesiastical laws are every where scattered up and down through the whole volume ; which being divided into nine collations , has not above one ( viz. the fourth ) that has not divers laws relating to church affairs . and as for the capitulars of charles the great , together with the additions of lewis the godly , his son and successour , they contain little else but ecclesiastical constitutions ; as may be seen in lindembrogius his collection of ancient laws , together with divers other laws of theodorick , and other gothish kings . § 18. and next to the divine providence , we owe the settlement and preservation of christian religion in the world to the conduct of christian princes . for by the time of constantine the primitive spirit and genius of christianity was wearing out of fashion , and the meekness and humility of its first professours began to give place to a furious and tumultuary zeal ; and no sooner did the heats of persecution begin to abate , but the church was presently shattered into swarms of factions by the violent passions and animosities of its members about bare speculations or useless practices : and of all the quarrels that ever disturbed the world , there were never any perhaps so excuseless or so irregular as those of christendom ; of which 't is hard to determine , whether they were commenced with more folly and indiscretion , or pursued with more passion and frowardness . the rage and fierceness of christians had kindled such a fire in the church , that it must unavoidably have been consumed by its own combustions , had not the christian emperours employed all their power to suppress the fury of the flames . and though in spight of all their prudence and industry , christianity was sadly impaired by its own tumults and seditions ; yet had it not been for the care of christian princes , it had in all humane probability been utterly destroyed ; and the flames that had once caught its superstructures , must without remedy have burnt up its very foundations . and if we look into the records and histories of the first christian emperours , we shall find that the most dangerous disturbances that threatned the state , had their beginnings in the church ; and that the empire was more shaken by the intestine commotions that arose from religion , than by foreign wars and invasions . and upon this account is it , that we find them so highly concern'd to reconcile all the discords , and allay all the heats about religion , by silencing needless and unprofitable controversies , determining certain & necessary truths , prescribing decent rites & ceremonies of publick worship , and all other wise and prudent expedients to bring the minds and practices of men to sobriety and moderation . § 19. and by this means was the outward polity of the church tolerably well established , and the affairs of religion competently well grounded ( though better or worse , according to the wisdom and vigilance of the several emperours ) till the bishops of rome usurp'd one half of the imperial power , and annexed the ecclesiastical jurisdiction and supremacy to their own see. for taking advantage of the distractions occasioned partly by the incursions of the northern nations on the west , partly by the invasions of the turkish power on the east , but mainly by the division of the empire it self , they gain'd either by force or fraud the whole dominion of religion to themselves , and by pretending to the spirit of infallibility , usurp'd an absolute and uncontroulable empire over the faiths and consciences of mankind . and whilst they at first pretended no other title to their sovereignty but what they derived from religion , they were constrain'd to scrue up their power to an unmeasurable tyranny , thereby to secure themselves in those insolencies and indignities wherewith they perpetually affronted the princes of christendom : and knowing the free-born reason of men would never tamely brook to be enslaved to so ignoble a tyranny , they proclaim'd it a traytour or ( what is the same ) a heretick to the catholick faith , and by their lowd noises and menaces frighted it out of christendom . in which design they at length advanced so far , till rome christian became little less fond and superstitious than rome heathen ; and christianity it self was almost debauched to the lowest guise of paganism , and europe , the seat of the most refined and politest part of mankind , was involved in a more than african ignorance and barbarity . and thus did they easily usher in the grand departure and apostasie from religion by the falling away from reason , and founded the roman faith as well as empire upon the ruines of humane liberty . § 20. in which sad posture continued the affairs of christendom till the reformation : which though it has wrought wonderful alterations in the christian world , yet has it not been able to resettle princes in their full & natural rights , in reference to the concerns of religion . for although the supremacy of the civil power in religious matters be expresly asserted in all the publick confessions of the reformed churches , but especially in that of the church of england ; which is not content barely to affirm it , but denounces the sentence of excommunication against all that deny it : yet by reason of the exorbitant power that some pert and pragmatical divines have gain'd over the minds of the people , this great article has found little or no entertainment in their practices : there starting up a race of proud and imperious men about the beginning of the reformation , who , not regarding the princes power , took upon themselves to frame precise hypotheses of orthodoxy , and to set up their own pedantick systems and institutions for the standards of divine truth ; and wanting , what the other had , the authority of prescription , they pretended to the spirit of god : and this pretence not only excused , but justified any wild theorems they could not prove by sober reason ; and those that would be awed with it , they embraced for orthodox , and those that would not , they branded for hereticks : by which little device they decoyed the silly and ignorant rabble into their own party . the effect of all which has been nothing but a brutish and fanatick ignorance , making men to talk of little else but raptures and extasies , and filling the world with a buzze and noise of the divine spirit ; whereby they are only impregnably possess'd with their own wild and extravagant fansies , become saucy and impudent for religion , confound order , and despise government , and will be guided by nothing but the whimsies and humours of an unaccountable conscience . § 21. and hence it comes to pass , that most protestant princes have been frighted ( not to say hector'd ) out of the exercise of their ecclesiastical jurisdiction by the clamours of giddy and distemper'd zealots ; superstition and enthusiasm have out-fac'd the laws , and put government out of countenance by the boldness of their pretensions . confident men have talked so lowdly of the inviolable sacredness and authority of their consciences , that governours , not throughly instructed in the nature and extent of their power , so lately restored to them , have been almost scared from intermedling with any thing , that could upon this score plead its priviledge and exemption from their commands . and how peremptory soever some of them have been in asserting the rights of their supreme power in civil affairs , they have been forced to seem modest and diffident in the exercise of their ecclesiastical supremacy , and dare scarce own their legislative power in religious affairs , only to comply with the saucy pretences of ungovernable and tumultuary zeal . one notorious instance whereof in our own nation , is the iejunium cecilianum , the wednesday fast , that was injoin'd with this clause of exception , that if any person should affirm it to be imposed with an intention to bind the conscience , he should be punished like the spreaders of false news . which is plainly to them that understand it , ( as a late learned prelate of our own observes ) a direct artifice to evacuate the whole law : for ( as he excellently argues ) all humane power being derived from god , and bound upon our consciences by his power , not by man , he that says it shall not bind the conscience , says it shall be no law ; it shall have no authority from god , and then it has none at all ; and if it be not tied upon the conscience , then to break it is no sin , and then to keep it is no duty . so that a law without such an intention is a contradiction ; it is a law which binds only if we please , and we may obey when we have a mind to it ; and to so much we are tied before the constitution . but then if by such a declaration it was meant , that to keep such fasting-days was no part of a direct commandment from god , that is , god had not required them by himself immediately , and so it was ( abstracting from that law ) no duty evangelical , it had been below the wisdom of the contrivers of it ; for no man pretends it , no man says it , no man thinks it : and they might as well have declar'd , that the law was none of the ten commandments . the matter indeed of this law was not of any great moment , but the declaration annexed to it proved of a fatal and mischievous consequence ; for when once the unruly consciences of the puritans were got loose from the restraints of authority , nothing could give check to their giddy and furious zeal , but they soon broke out into the most impudent affronts and indignities against the laws , and ran themselves into all manner of disloyal outrages against the state. as is notoriously evident in the writings and practices of cartwright , goodman , whittingham , gilby , whitehead , travers , and other leading rabbies of the holy faction ; whose treatises are stuffed with as railing , spightful , and malicious speeches both against their prince , the clergy , the lords of the council , the judges , the magistrates , and the laws , as were ever publickly vented by the worst of traytors in any society in the world . and as for the method of their polity , it was plainly no more than this , first to reproach the church with infamous and abusive dialogues , and then to libel the state with bitter and scurrilous pamphlets , to possess mens minds with dislikes and jealousies about publick affairs , whisper about reproachful and slanderous reports , inveigle the people with a thousand little and malicious stories , enter into secret leagues and confederacies , foment discontents and seditions , and in every streight and exigence of state threaten and beleaguer authority : in fine , the scope of all their sermons and discourses was to perswade their party , that if princes refuse to reform religion , 't is lawful for the people with direction of their godly ministers , ( i. e. themselves ) to do it , and that by violent and forcible courses . and whither this principle in process of time led them , the story is too long , too sad , and too well known to be here repeated : 't is sufficient , that it improved it self into the greatest villanies , & concluded in the blackest tragedy that was ever acted upon this island . § 22. well then , to sum up the result of this discourse , 't is evident , we see , both from reason and experience , what a powerful influence religion has upon the peace and quiet of kingdoms ; that nothing so effectually secures the publick peace , or so easily works its disturbance and ruine , as it s well or ill administration ; and therefore that there is an absolute necessity that there be some supreme power in every common-wealth to take care of its due conduct and settlement ; that this must be the civil magistrate , whose office it is to secure the publick peace , which because he cannot sufficiently provide for , unless he have the power and conduct of religion ; its government must of necessity be seated in him and none else . so that those persons , who would exempt conscience and all religious matters from the princes power , must make him either a tyrant or an impotent prince ; for if he take upon him to tye laws of religion upon their consciences , then according to their principles , he usurps an unlawful dominion , violates the fundamental rights and priviledges of mankind , and invades the throne and authority of god himself : but if he confess that he cannot , then does he clearly pass away the bigest security of his government , and lay himself open to all the plots and villanies that can put on the mask of religion . and therefore should any prince through unhappy miscarriages in the state be brought into such streights and exigences of affairs , as that he cannot restrain the head-strong inclinations of his subjects , without the hazard of raising such commotions and disturbances , as perhaps he can never be able to allay , and so should be forced in spight of himself to indulge them their liberty in their fansies and perswasions about religion ; yet unless he will devest himself of a more material and more necessary part of his authority , than if he should grant away his power of the militia , or his prerogative of ratifying all civil laws ; unless , i say , he will thus hazard his crown , and make himself too weak for government by renouncing the best part of his supremacy , he must lay an obligation upon all persons , to whom he grants this their religious freedom , to profess that 't is matter of meer favour and indulgence ; and that he has as much power to govern all the publick affairs of religion , as any other matters that are either conducive , or prejudicial to the publick peace and quiet of the common-wealth . and if they be brought to this declaration , they will but confess themselves ( to say no worse ) turbulent and seditious persons , by acknowledging , that they refuse their obedience to those laws , which the supreme authority has just power to impose . chap. ii. a more particular account of the nature and necessity of a sovereign power in affairs of religion . the contents . the parallel between matters relating to religious worship , and the duties of morality . moral vertues the most material parts of religion . this proved , ( 1. ) from the nature of morality , and the design of religion : ( 2. ) by a particular induction of all the duties of mankind . a scheme of religion , reducing all its branches either to the vertues or instruments of morality . of the villany of those mens religion , that are wont to distinguish between grace and virtue . they exchange the substance of true goodness for meer metaphors and allegories . metaphors the only cause of our present schism ; and the only ground of the different subdivisions among the schismaticks themselves . the vnaccountableness of mens conceits , that when the main ends and designs of religion are undoubtedly subject to the supreme power , they should be so eager to exempt its means and circumstances from the same authority . the civil magistrate may determine new instances of virtue ; how much more new circumstances of worship ? as he may enjoyn any thing in morality , that contradicts not the ends of morality ; so may be in religious worship , if he oppose not its design . he may command any thing in the worship of god , that does not tend to debauch mens practices , or their conceptions of the deity . all the subordinate duties both of morality and religious worship , are equally subject to the determinations of humane authority . § 1. having in the former chapter sufficiently made out my first proposition , viz. that 't is absolutely necessary to the peace and government of the world , that the supreme magistrate of every common-wealth should be vested with a power to govern the consciences of subjects in affairs of religion ; i now proceed to the proof of the second thing proposed , viz. that those who would deprive the supreme civil power of its authority in reference to the conduct of the worship of god , are forced to allow it in other more material parts of religion , though they are both liable to the same inconveniences and objections : where i shall have a fair opportunity to state the true extent of the magistrates power over conscience in reference to divine worship , by shewing it to be the same with his power over conscience in matters of morality , and all other affairs of religion . and here it strikes me with wonder and amazement to consider , that men should be so shy of granting the supreme magistrate a power over their consciences in the rituals and external circumstances of religious worship , and yet be so free of forcing it upon him in the essential duties of morality ; which are at least as great and material parts of religion , as pleasing to god , and as indispensably necessary to salvation , as any way of worship in the world. the precepts of the moral law are both perfective of our own natures , and conducive to the happiness of others ; and the practice of vertue consists in living suitably to the dictates of reason & nature . and this is the substance and main design of all the laws of religion , to oblige mankind to behave themselvs in all their actions as becomes creatures endued with reason and understanding , and in ways suitable to rational beings , to prepare and qualifie themselves for the state of glory and immortality . and as this is the proper end of all religion , that mankind might live happily here , and happily hereafter ; so to this end nothing contributes more than the practice of all moral vertues , which will effectually preserve the peace and happiness of humane societies , and advance the mind of man to a nearer approach to the perfection of the divine nature ; every particular vertue being therefore such , because 't is a resemblance and imitation of some of the divine attributes . so that moral vertue having the strongest and most necessary influence upon the end of all religion , viz. mans happiness ; 't is not only its most material and useful part , but the ultimate end of all its other duties : and all true religion can consist in nothing else but either the practice of vertue it self , or the use of those means and instruments that contribute to it . § 2. and this , beside the rational account of the thing it self , appears with an undeniable evidence from the best of demonstrations , i. e. an induction of all particulars . the whole duty of man refers either to his creator , or his neighbour , or himself : all that concerns the two last is confessedly of a moral nature ; and all that concerns the first , consists either in praising of god , or praying to him : the former is a branch of the vertue of gratitude , and is nothing but a thankful and humble temper of mind , arising from a sense of gods greatness in himself , and his goodness to us : so that this part of devotion issues from the same virtuous quality , that is the principle of all other resentments and expressions of gratitude ; only those acts of it that are terminated on god as their object , are styled religious : and therefore gratitude and devotion are not divers things , but only different names of the same thing ; devotion being nothing else but the virtue of gratitude towards god. the latter , viz. prayer is either put up in our own or other mens behalfs : if for others , 't is an act of that virtue we call kindness or charity : if for our selves , the things we pray for ( unless they be the comforts and enjoyments of this life ) are some or other virtuous qualities : and therefore the proper and direct use of prayer is to be instrumental to the virtues of morality : so that all duties of devotion ( excepting only our returns of gratitude ) are not essential parts of religion , but are only in order to it , as they tend to the practice of virtue and moral goodness ; and their goodness is derived upon them from the moral virtues to which they contribute ; and in the same proportion they are conducive to the ends of virtue , they are to be valued among the ministeries of religion . all religion then ( i mean the practical part ) is either virtue it self , or some of its instruments ; and the whole duty of man consists in being virtuous ; and all that is enjoin'd him beside , is in order to it . and what else do we find enforc'd and recommended in our saviour's sermons , beside heights of morality ? what does st. paul discourse of to felix but moral matters , righteousness , and temperance , and iudgment to come ? and what is it that men set up against morality , but a few figurative expressions of it self , that without it are utterly insignificant ? 't is not enough ( say they ) to be completely virtuous , unless we have grace too : but when we have set aside all manner of virtue , let them tell me what remains to be call'd grace , and give me any notion of it distinct from all morality , that consists in the right order and government of our actions in all our relations , and so comprehends all our duty : and therefore if grace be not included in it , 't is but a phantasm , and an imaginary thing . so that if we strip those definitions that some men of late have bestowed upon it , of metaphors and allegories , it will plainly signifie nothing but a vertuous temper of mind ; and all that the scripture intends by the graces of the spirit , are only vertuous qualities of the soul , that are therefore styled graces , because they were derived purely from gods free grace and goodness , in that in the first ages of christianity he was pleased , out of his infinite concern for its propagation , in a miraculous manner to inspire its converts with all sorts of vertue . wherefore the apostle st. paul , when he compiles a complete catologue of the fruits of the spirit , reckons up only moral vertues , gal. 5. 22. love , joy or chearfulness , peaceableness , patience , gentleness , goodness , faithfulness , meekness , and temperance ; and elsewhere , titus 2. 11. the same apostle plainly makes the grace of god to consist in gratitude towards god , temperance towards our selves , and justice towards our neighbours . for the grace of god that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men , teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts , we should live soberly , righteously , and godly in this present world . where the whole duty of man is comprehended in living godlily , which is the vertue of humble gratitude towards god : soberly , which contains the vertues of temperance , chastity , modesty , and all others that consist in the dominion of reason over our sensual appetites : righteously , which implies all the vertues of justice and charity , as affability , courtesie , meekness , candour , and ingenuity . § 3. so destructive of all true and real goodness is the very religion of those men that are wont to set grace at odds with vertue , and are so far from making them the same , that they make them inconsistent ; and though a man be exact in all the duties of moral goodness , yet if he be a graceless person ( i. e. void of i know not what imaginary godliness ) he is but in a cleaner way to hell , and his conversion is more hopeless than the vilest and most notorious sinners ; and the morally righteous man is at a greater distance from grace than the profane , and better be lewd and debauch'd , than live an honest and vertuous life , if you are not of the godly party . bona opera sunt perniciosa ad salutem , says flaccus illiricus . moral goodness is the greatest let to conversion ; and the prophanest wretches make better saints than your moral formalists . and by this means they have brought into fashion a godliness without religion , zeal without humanity , and grace without good nature , or good manners ; have found out in lieu of moral virtue , a spiritual divinity , that is made up of nothing else but certain trains and schemes of effeminate follies and illiterate enthusiasms ; and instead of a sober devotion , a more spiritual and intimate way of communion with god , that in truth consists in little else but meeting together in private to prate phrases , make faces , and rail at carnal reason ( i. e. in their sense all sober and sincere use of our understandings in spiritual matters ) whereby they have effectually turn'd all religion into unaccountable fansies and enthusiasms , drest it up with pompous and empty schemes of speech , and so embrace a few gawdy metaphors and allegories , instead of the substance of true and real righteousness . and herein lies the most material difference between the sober christians of the church of england , and our modern sectaries , that we express the precepts and duties of the gospel in plain and intelligible terms , whilst they trifle them away by childish metaphors and allegories , and will not talk of religion but in barbarous and uncouth similitudes ; and ( what is more ) the different subdivisions among the sects themselves are not so much distinguish'd by any real diversity of opinions , as by variety of phrases and forms of speech , that are the peculiar shibboleths of each tribe . one party affect to lard their discourses with clownish and slovenly similitudes ; another delights to roul in wanton and lascivious allegories ; and a third is best pleased with odd , unusual , unitelligible , and sometimes blasphemous expressions . and whoever among them can invent any new language , presently sets up for a man of new discoveries ; and he that lights upon the prettiest nonsense , is thought by the ignorant rabble to unfold new gospel-mysteries . and thus is the nation shattered into infinite factions , with sensless and phantastick phrases ; and the most fatal miscarriage of them all lies in abusing scripture-expressions , not only without but in contradiction to their sense . so that had we but an act of parliament to abridge preachers the use of fulsom and luscious metaphors , it might perhaps be an effectual cure of all our present distempers . let not the reader smile at the odness of the proposal : for were men obliged to speak sense as well as truth , all the swelling mysteries of fanaticism would immediately sink into flat and empty nonsense ; and they would be ashamed of such jejune and ridiculous stuff as their admired and most profound notions would appear to be , when they , want the varnish of fine metaphors and glittering allusions . in brief , were this a proper place to unravel all their affected phrases and forms of speech , which they have learn'd like parrots to prate by rote , without having any notion of the things they signifie , it would be no unpleasant task to demonstrate , that by them they either mean nothing at all , or some part or instrument of moral vertue . so that all religion must of necessity be resolv'd into enthusiasm or morality . the former is meer imposture , and therefore all that is true must be reduced to the latter ; and what-ever besides appertains to it , must be subservient to the ends of vertue : such are prayer , hearing sermons , and all manner of religious ordinances , that have directly no other place in religion , than as they are instrumental to a vertuous life . § 4. 't is certain then , that the duties of morality are the most weighty and material concerns of religion ; and 't is as certain , that the civil magistrate has power to bind laws concerning them upon the consciences of subjects : so that every mans conscience is and must be subject to the commands of lawful superiours in the most important matters of religion . and therefore is it not strange , that when the main ends and designs of all religion are avowedly subject to the supreme power , that yet men should be so impatient to exempt its means and subordinate instruments from the same authority ? what reason can the wit of man assign to restrain it from one , that will not much more restrain it from both ? is not the right practice of moral duties as necessary a part of religion , as any outward form of worship in the world ? are not wrong notions of the divine worship as destructive of the peace and settlement of common-wealths , as the most vicious and licentious debaucheries ? are not the rude multitude more inclined to disturb government by superstition than by licentiousness ? and is there not vastly greater danger of the magistrates erring in matters of morality , than in forms and ceremonies of worship , in that those are the main , essential , and ultimate duties of religion ; whereas these are at highest but their instruments , and can challenge no other place in religion , than as they are subservient to the purposes of morality ? nay , is it not still more unaccountable , that the supreme magistrate may not be permitted to determine the circumstances and appendages of the subordinate ministeries to moral virtue , and yet should be allowed ( in all common-wealths ) to determine the particular acts and instances of these virtues themselves ? for example , justice is a prime and natural virtue , and yet its particular cases depend upon humane laws , that determine the bounds of meum and tuum : the divine law restrains titius from invading caius's right and propriety ; but what that is , and when it is invaded , only the laws of the society they live in can determine . and there are some cases that are acts of injustice in england , that are not so in italy ; otherwise all places must be govern'd by the same laws , and what is a law to one nation must be so to all the world. whereas 't is undeniably evident , that neither the law of god nor of nature determine the particular instances of most virtues , but for the most part leave that to the constitutions of national laws . they in general forbid theft , incest , murther , and adultery ; but what these crimes are , they determine not in all cases , but is in most particulars to be explained by the civil constitutions ; and whatsoever the law of the land reckons among these crimes , that the law of god and of nature forbids . and now is it not strangely humoursome to say , that magistrates are instrusted with so great a power over mens conscience in these great and weighty designs of religion , and yet should not be trusted to govern the indifferent , or at least less material circumstances of those things that can pretend to no other goodness , than as they are means serviceable to moral purposes ? that they should have power to make that a particular of the divine law , that god has not made so ; and yet not be able to determine the use of an indifferent circumstance , because ( forsooth ) god has not determin'd it ? in a word , that they should be fully impowered to declare new instances of vertue and vice , and to introduce new duties in the most important parts of religion , and yet should not have authority enough to declare the use and decency of a few circumstances in its subservient and less material concerns . § 5. the whole state of affairs is briefly this ; man is sent into the world to live happily here , and prepare himself for happiness hereafter ; this is attain'd by the practice of moral vertues and pious devotions ; and wherein these mainly consist , almighty goodness has declared by the laws of nature and revelation : but because in both there are changeable cases and circumstances of things , therefore has god appointed his trustees and officials here on earth to act and determine in both , according to all accidents and emergencies of affairs , to assign new particulars of the divine law , to declare new bounds of right and wrong , which the law of god neither does nor can limit ; because of necessity they must in a great measure depend upon the customs and constitutions of every common-wealth . and in the same manner are the circumstances and outward expressions of divine worship , because they are variable according to the accidents of time and place , entrusted ( with less danger of errour ) with the same authority . and what ceremonies this appoints ( unless they are apparently repugnant to their prime end ) become religious rites ; as what particular actions it constitutes in any species of virtue , become new instances of that virtue , unless they apparently contradict its nature and tendency . now the two primary designs of all religion , are either to express our honourable opinion of the deity , or to advance the interests of vertue and moral goodness ; so that no rites or ceremonies can be esteemed unlawful in the worship of god , unless they tend to debauch men either in their practices , or their conceptions of the deity : and 't is upon one or both of these accounts that any rites and forms of worship become criminally superstitious ; and such were the lupercalia , the eleusinian mysteries , the feasts of bacchus , flora , and venus , because they were but so many festivals of lust and debauchery ; and such were the salvage and bloody sacrifices to saturn , bellona , moloch , baal-peor , and all other 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the antient paganism ; because they supposed the divine being to take pleasure in the miseries and tortures of its creatures : and such is all idolatry , in that it either gives right worship to a wrong object , or wrong worship to a right one , or at least represents an infinite majesty by images and resemblances of finite things , and so reflects disparagement upon some of the divine attributes by fastning dishonourable weaknesses and imperfections upon the divine nature . as for these , and the like rites and ceremonies of worship , no humane power can command them , because they are directly contradictory to the ends of religion ; but as for all others that are not so , any lawful authority may as well enjoyn them , as it may adopt any actions whatsoever into the duties of morality , that are not contrary to the ends of morality . § 6. but a little farther to illustrate this , we may observe , that in matters both of moral vertue and divine worship there are some rules of good and evil that are of an eternal and unchangeable obligation , and these can never be prejudiced or altered by any humane power ; because the reason of their obligation arises from a necessity and constitution of nature , and therefore must be as perpetual as that : but then there are other rules of duty that are alterable according to the various accidents , changes , and conditions of humane life , and depend chiefly upon contracts , and positive laws of kingdoms ; these suffer variety , because their matter and their reason does so . thus in the matter of murther there are some instances of an unalterable nature , and others that are changeable according to the various provisions of positive laws and constitutions . to take away the life of an innocent person is forbidden by such an indispensable law of nature , that no humane power can any way directly or indirectly make it become lawful , in that no positive laws can so alter the constitution of nature , as to make this instance of villany cease to be mischievous to mankind ; and therefore 't is capital in all nations of the world. but then there are other particular cases of this crime , that depend upon positive laws , and so by consequence are liable to change according to the different constitutions of the common-wealths men live in . thus though in england 't is murther for an injured husband to kill an adulteress taken in the act of uncleanness , because 't is forbidden by the laws of this kingdom , yet in spain and among the old romans it was not , because their laws permitted it ; and if the magistrate himself may punish the crime with death , he may appoint whom he pleases to be his executioner . and the case is the same in reference to divine worship , in which there are some things of an absolute and indispensable necessity , and others of a transient and changeable obligation : thus 't is absolutely necessary every rational creature should make returns of gratitude to its creator , from which no humane power can restrain it ; but then for the outward expressions and significations of this duty , they are for the most part good or evil according to the customs and constitutions of different nations , unless in the two forementioned cases , that they either countenance vice , or disgrace the deity . but as for all other rituals , ceremonies , postures , & manners of performing the outward expressions of devotion , that are not chargeable with one or both of these , nothing can hinder their being capable of being adopted into the ministeries of divine service , or exempt them from being subject to the determinations of humane power . and thus the parallel holds in all cases between the secondary and emergent laws of morality , and the subordinate and instrumental rules of worship ; they both equally pass an obligation upon all men , to whom they are prescribed , unless they directly contradict the ends of their institution . and now from this more general consideration of the agreement between matters of meer worship and other duties of morality in reference to the power of the civil magistrate , we may proceed by some more particular accounts to discover , how his dominion over both is of equal extent , and restrain'd within the same bounds and measures ; and that in what cases soever he may exercise jurisdiction over conscience in matters of morality , in all the same he may exercise the same power in concerns of religious worship ; and on the contrary , in what cases his power over matters of religion is restrain'd , in all the same is it limited as to things of a moral nature : whence it must appear with a clear and irresistible evidence , that mens right to liberty of conscience is the same in both to all cases , niceties , and circumstances of things , and that they may as rationally challenge a freedom from the laws of justice as from those of religion , and that to grant it in either is equally destructive of all order and government , and equally tends to reduce all societies , to anarchy and confusion . chap. iii. a more particular state of the controversie , concerning the inward actions of the mind , or matters of meer conscience . the contents . mankind have a liberty of conscience over all their actions , whether moral or strictly religious , as far as it concerns their iudgments , but not their practices . of the nature of christian liberty . it relates to our thoughts , and not to our actions . it may be preserved inviolable under outward restraints . christian liberty consists properly in the restauration of the mind of man to its natural priviledge from the yoke of the ceremonial law. the substantial part of religious worship is internal , and out of the reach of the civil magistrate . external worship is no part of religion . it is and must be left undetermined by the law of god. sacrifices the most antient expressions of outward worship were purely of humane institution . though their being expiatory depended upon a positive law of god , yet their most proper and original vse , viz. to express the significations of a grateful mind , depended on the wills of men. of their first original among the heathens . the reason why god prescribed the particular rites and ceremonies of outward worship to the iews . vnder the christian dispensation he has left the disposal of outward worship to the power and discretion of the church . the impertinency of mens clamours against significant ceremonies , when 't is the only use of ceremonies to be significant . the signification of all ceremonies equally arbitrary . the signification of ceremonies is of the same nature with that of words . and men may as well be offended at the one as the other . § 1. first then , let all matters of meer conscience , whether purely moral or religious , be subject to conscience meerly , i. e. let men think of things according to their own perswasions , and assert the freedom of their judgments against all the powers of the earth . this is the prerogative of the mind of man within its own dominion ; its kingdom is intellectual , and seated in the thoughts , not actions of men ; and therefore no humane power does , or can prescribe to any mans opinions and secret thoughts , but men will think as they please in spight of all their decrees , and the understanding will remain free when every thing else is bound . and this sovereignty of conscience is no entrenchment upon that of princes : because 't is concern'd only in such matters as are of a quite different nature from their affairs , and gives no restraint to their commanding power over the actions of men ; for meer opinion , whilst such , has no influence upon the good or evil of humane society , that is the proper object of government ; and therefore as long as our thoughts are secret , and lock'd up within our own breasts , they are out of the reach of all humane power . but as for matters that are not confined within the territories of meer conscience , but come forth into outward action , and appear in the societies of men , there is no remedy but they must be subject to the cognizance of humane laws , and come within the verge of humane power ; because by these societies subsist , and humane affairs are transacted . and therefore it concerns those , whose office it is to secure the peace and tranquillity of mankind , to govern and manage them in order to the publick good. so that 't is but a vain and frivolous pretence , when men plead with so much noise and clamour for the sacred and inviolable rights of conscience , and apparently invade or infringe the magistrates power , by submitting its commands to the authority of every subjects conscience ; because the commands of lawful authority are so far from invading its proper liberty , that they cannot reach it , in that 't is seated in that part of man , of whose transactions the civil power can take no cognizance . all humane authority and jurisdiction extends no farther than mens outward actions , these are the proper object of all their laws : whereas liberty of conscience is internal and invisible , and confined to the minds and judgments 〈◊〉 men ; and whilst conscience acts within its proper sphere , that civil power is so far from doing it violence , that it never can . but when this great and imperious faculty passes beyond its own peculiar bounds , and would invade the magistrates authority by exercising an unaccountable dominion within his territories , or by venting such wild opinions among his subjects , as he apprehends to tend to the disturbance of the publick peace , then does it concern him to give check to its proceedings as much as to all other invasions ; for the care of the publick good being his duty , as well as interest , it cannot but be in his power to restrain or permit actions , as they are conducible to that end. mankind therefore have the same natural right to liberty of conscience in matters of religious worship , as in affairs of justice and honesty , i. e. a liberty of iudgment , but not of practice ; they have an inviolable freedom to examine the goodness of all laws moral and ecclesiastical , and to judge of them by their suitableness to the natural reasons of good and evil : but as for the practice and all outward actions either of virtue or devotion , they are equally governable by the laws and constitutions of common-wealths ; and men may with the same pretences of reason challenge an exemption from all humane laws in matters of common honesty upon the score of the freedom of their consciences , as they plead a liberty from all authority in duties of religious worship upon the same account ; because they have a freedom of judgment in both , but of practice in neither . § 2. and upon the reasonableness of this principle is founded the duty ( or rather priviledge ) of christian liberty , viz. to assert the freedom of the mind of man , as far as 't is not inconsistent with the government of the world , in that a sincere and impartial use of our own understandings , is the first and fundamental duty of humane nature . hence it is , that the divine providence is so highly solicitous not to have it farther restrained than needs must ; and therefore in all matters of pure speculation it leaves the mind of man entirely free to judge of the truth and falshood of things , and will not suffer it to be usurp'd upon by any authority whatsoever : and whatsoever opinion any man entertains of things of this nature , he injures no man by it , and therefore no man can have any reason to commence any quarrel with him for it ; every man here judges for himself , and not for others , and matters of meer opinion having no reference to the publick , there is no need of any publick judgment to determine them . but as for those actions that are capable of having any influence upon the publick good or ill of mankind , though they are liable to the determinations of the publick laws , yet the law of god will not suffer them to be determin'd farther than is requisite to the ends of government : and in those very things in which it has granted the civil magistrate a power over the practices of men , it permits them not to exercise any authority over their judgments , but leaves them utterly free to judge of them as far as they are objects of meer opinion , and relate not to the common interest of mankind . and hence , though the commands of our lawful superiours may change indifferent things into necessary duties , yet they cannot restrain the liberty of our minds from judging things thus determin'd to remain in their own nature indifferent : and the reason of our obligation to do them is not fetcht from any antecedent necessity in themselves , but from the supervening commands of authority , to which obedience in all things lawful is a necessary duty . so that christian liberty , or the inward freedom of our judgments may be preserved inviolable under the restraints of the civil magistrate , which are outward , and concern only the actions , not judgments of men ; because the outward determination to one particular rather than another does not abrogate the inward indifferency of the thing it self ; and the duty of our acting according to the laws arises not from any opinion of the necessity of the thing it self , but either from some emergent and changeable circumstances of order and decency , or from a sense of the absolute indispensableness of the duty of obedience . therefore the whole affair of christian liberty relates only to our inward judgment of things ; and provided this be kept inviolate , it matters not ( as to that concern ) what restraints are laid upon our cutward actions . in that though the gospel has freed our consciences from the power of things , yet it has not from that of government ; we are free from the matter , but not from the authority of humane laws ; and as long as we obey the determinations of our superiours with an opinion of the indifferency of the things themselves , we retain the power of our christian liberty , and are still free as to the matter of the law , though not as to the duty of obedience . § 3. neither is this prerogative of our christian liberty so much any new favour granted in the gospel , as the restauration of the mind of man to its natural priviledge , by exempting us from the yoke of the ceremonial law , whereby things in themselves indifferent were tied upon the conscience with as indispensable an obligation , as the rules of essential goodness & equity , during the whole period of the mosaick dispensation ; which being cancell'd by the gospel , those indifferent things , that had been made necessary by a divine positive command , return'd to their own nature , to be used or omitted only as occasion should direct . and upon this account was it that st. paul , though he were so earnest an assertor of his christian liberty against the doctrine of the necessity of jewish ceremonies , never scrupled to use them , when ever he thought it serviceable to the interests of christianity ; as is apparent in his circumcision of timothy , to which he would never have condescended out of observation of the mosaick law , and yet did not in the least scruple to do it for other purposes as prudence and discretion should direct him . and though in his discourses of christian liberty he instances only in circumcision , meats and drinks , and other ceremonial ordinances , which were then the particulars most in dispute between the christians and the jews ; yet by the clearest analogy of reason the case is the same as to the judicial law , and all other things commanded by moses , that were not either rules of eternal goodness , or expresly establish'd in the gospel : this being its clearest and most important design , to reprieve mankind from all the burdensome and arbitrary impositions of moses , that were scarce capable of any other goodness than their being instances of obedience ; and to restore us to such a religion , as was most suitable to the perfection of humane nature ; and to tye no other laws upon us , than such whose natural and intrinsick goodness should carry with them their own eternal obligation . and therefore whatsoever our superiours impose upon us , whether in matters of religious worship , or any other duties of morality , it neither is , nor can be any entrenchment upon our christian liberty , provided it be not imposed with an opinion of the antecedent necessity of the thing it self . § 4. now the design of what i have discoursed upon this article of christian liberty , is not barely to shew the manifest impertinency of all those little objections men force from it against the civil magistrates jurisdiction over the outward concerns of religion ; whereas this relates entirely to things of a quite different nature , and is only concern'd in the inward actions of the mind : but withal my purpose is mainly , by exempting all internal acts of the soul from the empire of humane laws , to shew that religion , properly so called , is of all virtues the least obnoxious to the abuse of government , in that the whole substance of religious worship is transacted within the mind of man , and dwells in our hearts and thoughts beyond the reach of princes ; the soul is its proper seat and temple , and there men may worship their god as they please , without offending their prince . for the essence of religious worship consists in nothing else but a grateful sense and temper of mind towards the divine goodness , and so can reside in those faculties only that are capable of being affected with gratitude and veneration : and as for all that concerns external worship , 't is no part of religion it self , but only an instrument to express the inward veneration of the mind by some outward action or posture of the body . upon which account it is that the divine wisdom has so little concern'd it self to prescribe any particular forms of divine service ; for though the christian laws command us by some exteriour signs to express our interiour piety , yet they have no where set down any particular expressions of worship and adoration . and indeed the exteriour significations of honour being so changeable according to the variety of customs and places , there could be no particular forms or fashions prescribed : for so some would have been obliged to signifie their honourable sentiments of god by marks of scorn and dishonour ; because those fashions and postures which in some places are indications of respect , are to others signs of contempt . so mad and seditious is the humour of those men , who brand all those forms of divine service , that are not expresly enjoyn'd in the holy volume , with the odious titles of superstition and will-worship ; and so in one sentence condemn all the churches in the world , seeing there is not any one that has not peculiar rites and customs of its own , that were never prescribed nor practised by our saviour or his apostles . and in all ages of the world god has left the management of his outward worship to the discretion of men , unless when to determine some particular forms has been useful to some other purposes . § 5. the ancientest and most universally practised way of expressing divine worship and adoration , was by offering of sacrifices ; those first ages of the world conceiving it a proper and natural way of acknowledging their entire dependence upon , and gratitude towards god , by publickly presenting him with a portion of the best and most precious things they had : and god was well-pleased with them , not because he at all delighted in the blood of bulls and goats , but because they were the pledges , and significations of a grateful mind . and yet this outward expression of divine worship , notwithstanding its universality and antiquity , was only made choice of by good men as a fit way of intimating the pious and grateful resentments of their minds , and cannot in the least pretend to owe its original to any divine institution , seeing there appears not any shadow of a command for it ; and to say it was commanded , though 't is no where recorded , is to take the liberty of saying any thing without proof or evidence . that indeed sacrifices became expiatory , and that the life of a beast should be accepted to redeem the life of a man , depended purely upon positive institution , lev. 17. 11. for the life of the flesh is in the blood , and i have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls ; for 't is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. now it was a matter of meer grace and favour in god to exchange the blood of a beast for the blood of a man , which was really forfeited for every transgression of that law , that was establish'd upon no less sanction than the threatning of death . in which commutation of the forfeiture was an equal mixture of the divine mercy and severity , hereby he at once signified his hatred to sin , and his compassion to sinners ; in that though he might have remitted the offence without exacting the penalty , yet to shew his implacable hatred against sin , and withal the more to affright men from its commission , he would never remit its guilt without some sort of recompence and expiation . but setting aside this positive institution of sacrifices and consumptive oblations , their prime and natural use was only to express the significations of a grateful mind , as sufficiently appears not only in the religion of the ancient jews , but heathens too . among whom the first and earliest footsteps of the worship of god appear in their harvest sacrifices and oblations , when they presented the deity with a parcel of their annual returns in acknowledgment of his bounty and providence : crying harvest-in was their most solemn , and most ancient festival , arist. nicomach . l. 8. c. 11. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . the ancient sacrifices and festival meeting appear to have been at first instituted upon the ingathering of their fruits , such were the offering of their first-fruits : which was a decent and sutable way of acknowledging their homage and gratitude to their supreme lord ; and had they not been directed to a wrong deity ( as probably they were to the sun ) they might have been no less pleasing to the almighty , than cornelius's alms and devotions : because god is no respecter of persons , but in every nation he that feareth him , and worketh righeousness , is accepted with him . § 6. in the mosaick dispensation indeed god took special care to prescribe the particular rites and ceremonies of his worship , not so much by reason of the necessity of the thing it self , as because of the sottishness and stupidity of that age ; in that all the religions in the world were lamentably degenerated into the most sordid and idolatrous superstition , and the jewish nation were sottishly addicted to the absurd customs of their neighbours ; and therefore the divine wisdom enjoyn'd them the most contrary usages , as a fence to keep them from passing over to the religion of the gentiles . but when mankind was grown up to a riper understanding , and could discern that religion was something else beside customs and ceremonies ; then did god cancel the old discipline of the law , and by the ministry of iesus christ establish'd a more manly and rational dispensation ; in which as he has been more solicitous to acquaint us with the main and fundamental affairs of religion , so has he scarce at all concern'd himself in exteriour rites and significations ( having instituted only two , viz. the two sacraments that are distinguish'd from all other ceremonies , by their being federal and peculiarly significative of the covenant between god and man , seal'd by the first , renewed and confirmed by the second ) but as for all other rites and ceremonies of external service , he has left their entire disposal to the power and discretion of the church it self , knowing that as long as men had wit and reason enough to manage the civil affairs of common-wealths , they could not want prudence to judge what circumstances were conducive to order and decency in publick worship . and if we take a survey of all the forms of divine service practised in the christian church , there is not any of them can so much as pretend to be appointed in the word of god , but depend on the authority of the civil power in the same manner as all customs and laws of civil government do . and therefore to quarrel with those forms of publick worship , that are established by authority , only because they are humane institutions , is at once notorious schism and rebellion : for where a religion is establish'd by the laws , whoever openly refuses obedience , plainly rebels against the government , rebellion being properly nothing else but an open denial of obedience to the civil power . nor can men of this principle live peaceably in any church in christendom , in that there is not a church in the world , that has not peculiar rites and customs and laws of government and discipline . § 7. but of this i shall have occasion to account elsewhere , and shall rather chuse to observe here , from what i have discoursed of the use and nature of outward worship , the prodigious impertinency of that clamour some men have for so many years kept up against the institution of significant ceremonies ; when 't is the only use of ceremonies , as well as all other outward expressions of religion , to be significant : in that all worship is only an outward sign of inward honour , and is indifferently perform'd either by words or actions ; for respect may as well be signified by deeds , and postures , and visible solemnities as by solemn expressions : thus to approach the divine majesty with such gestures as are wont to betoken reverence and humility , is as proper a piece of worship , as to celebrate his greatness by solemn praises : and to offer sacrifices and oblations , was among the ancients the same sort of worship as to return thanksgivings , they being both equally outward signs of inward love and gratitude . and therefore there can be no more exception against the signification of ceremonies than of words , seeing this is the proper office of both in the worship of god. and as all forms , and ceremonies , and outward actions of external worship are in a manner equally significant , so are they equally arbitrary ; only some happen to be more universally practised , and others to be confined to some particular times and places : kneeling , lying prostrate , being bare-headed , lifting up the hands or eyes , are not more naturally significant of worship and adoration than putting off the shoes , bowing the head , or bending the body ; and if some are more generally used than others , that proceeds not from their natural significancy , but from custom and casual prescriptions : and to bow the body , when we mention the name of iesus , is as much a natural signification of honour to his person , as kneeling , or being bare-headed , or lifting up the hands or eyes , when we offer up our prayers to him . but if all outward actions become to betoken honour by institution , then whatsoever outward signs are appointed by the common-wealth , unless they are customary marks of contempt , and so carry in them some antecedent vndecency , are proper signs of worship ; for if actions are made significant by agreement , those are most so whose signification is ratified by publick consent . § 8. so that all the magistrates power of instituting significant ceremonies , amounts to no more than a power of determining what shall or shall not be visible signs of honour , and this certainly can be no more usurpation upon the consciences of men , than if the sovereign authority should take upon it self ( as some princes have done ) to define the signification of words . for as words do not naturally denote those things which they are used to represent , but have their import stampt upon them by consent and institution , and and may , if men would agree to it among themselves , be made marks of things quite contrary to what they now signifie : so the same gestures and actions are indifferently capable of signifying either honour or contumely ; and therefore that they may have a certain and setled meaning , 't is necessary their signification should be determined : and unless this be done either by some positive command , or publick consent , or some other way , there can be no such thing as publick worship in the world , in that its proper end and usefulness is to express mens agreement in giving honour to the divine majesty : and therefore unless the signs by which this honour is signified be publick and uniform , 't is not publick worship , because there is no publick signification of honour . so far is it from being unlawful for governours to define significant ceremonies in divine worship , that it is rather necessary ; in that unless they were defined , it would cease to be publick worship : and when different men worship god by different actions , according to their different fansies , 't is not publick , but private worship ; in that they are not publick , but private signs of honour . so that uniformity in the outward actions of religious worship is of the same use , as certainty in the signification of words , because otherwise they were no publick expressions of honour . and therefore , to sum up the whole result of this discourse : if all internal actions of the soul are beyond the jurisdiction of humane power , if by them the substance of religious worship be perform'd , if all outward forms of worship have no other use , than only to be instruments to express inward religion , and if the signification of actions be of the same nature with that of words ; then when the civil magistrate takes upon him to determine any particular forms of outward worship , 't is , after all that hideous and ridiculous noise that is raised against it , of no worse consequence , than if he should go about to define the signification of all words used in the worship of god. chap. iv. of the nature of all actions intrinsecally evil , and their exemption from the authority of humane laws , against mr. hobs ; with a full confutation of his whole hypothesis of government . the contents . no magistrate can command actions internally evil. the reason hereof is , not because men are in any thing free from the supreme authority in earth , but because they are subject to a superiour in heaven . to take off all obligations antecedent to humane laws , is utterly to destroy all government . mr. hobs his hypothesis concerning the nature and original of government proposed . it s absurdity demonstrated from its inconsistency with the natural constitution of things . the principles of government are to be adapted , not to an imaginary , but to the real state of nature . this hypothesis apparently denies either the being of god , or the goodness and wisdom of providence . it irrecoverably destroys the safety of all societies of mankind in the world. it leaves us in as miserable condition under the state of government , as we were in his supposed natural state of war. it enervates all its own laws of nature , by founding the reason of their obligation upon meer self-interest . which false and absurd principle being removed , all that is base , or peculiar in the whole hypothesis , is utterly cashier'd . § 1. when any thing that is apparently and intrinsecally evil is the matter of an humane law , whether it be of a civil or ecclesiastical concern , here god is to be obeyed rather than man : no circumstances can alter the rules of prime and essential rectitude , their goodness is eternal and unchangeable . and therefore in all such actions disobedience to humane laws is so far from being a sin , that it becomes an indispensable duty . where the good or evil of an action is determined by the law of nature , no positive humane law can take off its morality ; because 't is in it self repugnant to the principles of right reason , & by consequence as unchangeable as that . and therefore if the supreme magistrate should make a law not to believe the being of god or providence , the truth of the gospel , the immortality of the soul ; that law can no more bind , than if a prince should command a man to murther his father , or to ravish his mother ; because the obligatory power of all such laws is antecedently rescinded by a stronger and more indispensable obligation . and thus has every man a natural right to be virtuous , and no authority whatsoever can deny him the liberty of acting virtuously without being guilty of the foulest tyranny and injustice : not so much because subjects are in any thing free from the authority of the supreme power on earth , as because they are subject to a superiour in heaven ; and they are only then excused from the duty of obedience to their sovereign , when they cannot give it without rebellion against god. so that it is not originally any right of their own , that exempts them from a subjection to the sovereign power in all things ; but 't is purely gods right of governing his own creatures , that magistrates then invade , when they make edicts to violate or controul his laws . and those who would take off from the consciences of men all obligations antecedent to those of humane laws , instead of making the power of princes supreme , absolute , and uncontroulable , they utterly enervate all their authority , and set their subjects at perfect liberty from all their commands . for if we once remove all the antecedent obligations of conscience and religion , men will be no further bound to submit to their laws , than only as themselves shall see convenient ; and if they are under no other restraint , it will be their wisdom to rebel as oft as it is their interest . in that the laws of superiours passing no obligation upon the consciences of subjects , they neither are , nor can be under any stronger engagements to subjection , than to preserve themselves from the penalties and inflictions of the law ; and so by consequence may despise its obligation , whenever they can hope to escape its punishment . now , how must this weaken the power , and supplant the thrones of princes , if every subject may despise their laws , or invade their sovereignty , whenever he can hope to build his own fortune upon their ruines ? how would it expose their scepters to the continual attempts of rebels and usurpers , when every one , that has strength enough to wrest it out of his princes hands , has right and title enough to hold it ? what security could princes have of their subjects loyalty , that will own their power , as long as it shall be their interest ; and when it ceases to be so , call it tyranny ? how shall they ever be secured by any promises , oaths , and covenants of allegiance , that have no other band but self-security , or hope of exemption from the penalties of the law ? will not the most sacred bonds and compacts leave them in as insecure a condition as they found them in ? in that self-advantage would have kept their subjects loyal and obedient without oaths , and nothing else will do it with them ; and therefore they can add no new obligations to that of interest : for if to perform their covenants be advantageous , they are bound to perform them by the laws of prudence and discretion without the oath as much as with it ; if disadvantageous , no oath can oblige them , in that interest and self-preservation is the only enforcement of all their covenants : and therefore when that tye happens to cease , their obligation becomes null and void , and they may observe them if they please , and if they please break them . § 2. but the vanity and groundlesness of this opinion will more fully appear , by discovering the lamentable foundation , on which it stands ; and that is a late wild hypothesis concerning the nature and original of government , which is briefly this : that the natural condition of mankind is a state and posture of war of every man against every man , in that all men being born in a condition of equality , they have all an equal right to all things ; and because all cannot enjoy all , hence every man becomes an enemy to every man : in which state of hostility there is no way for any man to secure himself so reasonable as anticipation , that is , by force or wiles to master the persons of all men he can , till he see no other power great enough to endanger himself ; so that there is no remedy but that in the state of nature all men must be obliged to seek and contrive , in order to their own security , one anothers destruction . but because in this condition mankind must for ever groan under all the miseries and calamities of war , therefore they have wisely chosen by mutual consent to enter into contracts and covenants of mutual trust , in which every man has , in order to his own security , been content to relinquish his natural and unlimited right to every thing ; and hereby they enter into a state of peace and government , in which every man engages by solemn oath and covenant to submit himself to the publick laws in order to his own private safety . so that , according to this hypothesis , there are no rules of right or wrong antecedent to the laws of the common-wealth , but all men are at absolute liberty to do as they please ; and how cruel soever they may be to one another , they can never be injurious , there being nothing just or unjust but what is made so by the laws of the society , to which all its members covenant to submit when they enter into it . this hypothesis , as odde as it is , is become the standard of our modern politicks ; by which men , that pretend to understand the real laws of wisdom and subtlety , must square their actions ; and therefore is swallowed down , with as much greediness as an article of faith , by the wild and giddy people of the age. and of the reality of it none can doubt but fops and raw-brain'd fellows , that understand nothing of the world , or the complexion of humane nature . now 't is but labour in vain to go about to confute the phantastick theory of things , only by demonstrating the groundlesness of the conceit ; it being the fashion and humour of those men i have to do with , to embrace any hypothesis how precarious soever , if it do but serve the purposes of baseness and irreligion : and therefore i shall not content my self with barely proving the weakness of its foundation , but shall confute and shame it too , by shewing it to be palpably false , absurd , and mischievous from these ensuing considerations . § 3. first then the hypothesis , which he lays as the basis of all his discourse , is infinitely false and absurd : for what can be more incongruous , than to proceed upon the supposal of such a state of nature as never was , nor ever shall be ; and is so far from being sutable to the natural frame of things , that 't is absolutely inconsistent with it ? and though philosophers are so civil among themselves ( with how much reason i now determine not ) as to allow one another the liberty , when they frame theories and hypotheses of things , to suppose some precarious principles ; yet are they never so fond as to grant such fundamental suppositions , as are apparently false and incongruous , and repugnant to the real state of things : or if any will take upon them that unwarrantable liberty of invention , yet however it would be monstrously impertinent to lay down their own lamentable fictions , as the fundamental reasons of the truth , and reality of things . and yet with this gross and inexcusable absurdity is this hypothesis most notoriously chargeable . for when it has once supposed ( without ever attempting to prove it ) that the state of nature is a state of war , and that by nature all men have a right to all things , and come into the world without any obligations to mutual justice and honesty , it from thence concludes : that in a bare state of nature there can be no right and wrong ; that what mischiefs soever men may do to each other , they can do no injuries ; that the first reason and foundation of all natural right is self-preservation , and that in pursuance of this principle men enter into societies , bind themselves to an observance of the laws of justice and natural equity by mutual bonds and covenants , and think themselves engaged to observe them only in order to self-interest . so that if we remove this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , this fundamental falshood , that the state of nature is a state of war and anarchy , all the subsequent propositions will immediately appear to be as groundless , as they are unreasonable ; and there will not remain the least shadow of reason to believe private interest , the only reason of right and wrong , or the first and fundamental law of nature ; and this authors city will appear to stand upon no firmer foundation than a fable and a falshood ; and his hypothesis so grosly absurd and incongruous , as would be highly blameable in the contrivance of a dramatick plot. but if , instead of conforming the principles of justice and government to this false and imaginary state of the world , we take a serious view of the true and real posture of the nature of things ; the dictates of reason that must naturally result from thence , will be as contrary to some of those this author hath assign'd , as the natural state of things is to this imaginary one : namely , that there was a first cause of humane kind , and that this first cause is a being endued with goodness and equity ; and therefore that when he made mankind , he design'd their welfare and felicity ; and by consequence created them in such a condition , in which they might acquire it . all men therefore having by the divine appointment a common right and title to happiness , which cannot be obtain'd without society , nor society subsist without mutual aids of love and friendship , because we are not self-sufficient , but stand in need of mutual assistances ; from hence it follows , that as every man is obliged to act for his own good , so also to aim at the common good of mankind , because without this the natural right that every individual man has to happiness , cannot possibly be obtain'd ; so that there will plainly arise from the constitution of humane nature an essential iustice , that demands of every man offices of love and kindness to others as well as to himself ; in that without this that common welfare and happiness , which nature , or rather that divine providence that made it , design'd for all and every individual of mankind , must become utterly unattainable . and hence the sole fountain of all the mischiefs and miseries in the world is excess of unreasonable self-love , and neglect of all other interests but our own ; and all such , as separate their own concerns from the common interest , are the profess'd enemies of mankind : and therefore 't is the only aim of all the just laws and wise philosophy in the world , to assign reasonable allowances between self-love and society . and if all men would be just , and impartial between themselves and the publick , i. e. all others , there would be no use of laws nor judges , this being the only office of publick justice , to balance every mans private interest . well then , because there is an absolute necessity that the government of the world must be suited to , and established upon the natural condition of humane nature ; hence it is , that it is made as natural to the being , as 't is necessary to the preservation of mankind ; and that as we cannot subsist , so neither can we be born out of society , he that made us , having made this our natural condition , that we could not possibly come into the world but under a state of government , all children being actually as soon as born under the power and authority of their parents : and therefore as mankind cannot continue without propagation , so neither can propagation without government ; and to be a subject is as natural upon being born , as to be a man. now 't is certain , that that only can be accounted the state of nature that was made and design'd by the author of nature ( for if it be not suitable to that order and condition of things , that he has establish'd , 't is preternatural . ) and therefore seeing he did not create multitudes of men together out of each others power , and in a state of war and hostility , but begun the race of humane kind in a single person , by whom the community of men was to be propagated , that must be the state of nature in which it was at first founded , and by which it is still continued : but if men will feign such an imaginary state of nature as is utterly contradictory to the real , and then , upon such an unnatural frame of affairs , establish our natural rights ; 't is no wonder if they prove contrary to our common interests , seeing they are suited to a contrary state of things . § 4. secondly , no man can seriously embrace this hypothesis , that does not firmly believe either ( 1. ) that there never was any author of humane nature , but that a multitude of men hapned by chance to arise like mushromes out of the earth altogether , who out of diffidence and jealousie one of another for want of acquaintance shun'd society , and withdrew like all other beasts of prey into dens and secret retirements , where they lived poor and solitary as bats and owls , and subsisted like vermine by robbing and filching from one another ; till finding this way of living lamentably unsafe and uneasie , every man being always upon the guard against every man , and in continual fear and danger from the whole community , they grew weary of this forlorn and comfortless way of living ; and thence some that were more wise , or more cowardly than others , when they chanced to meet in their wild rangings after prey , instead of belabouring one another with snagsticks , and beating out each others brains , made signs of parley , and so began to treat of terms of mutual peace and assistance , and so by degrees to win others into their party , till they hearded together in small rendezvouses , like the little common-wealths of the savage americans , which in process of time grew up into larger societies , from whence at length came the different nations and governments of the world. but if this fortuitous original of humane nature be too absurd and ridiculous to be asserted , then ( 2. ) it must be supposed , that there was a first author and creator of mankind : and if there were , then whoever believes this hypothesis , must withal believe that he contrived things so ill , that unless his creatures had by chance been more provident than himself , they must of necessity have perish'd as soon as they were made ; and therefore that the well-being of the world is to be entirely attributed to mans wit , and not to gods providence , who sent his creatures into it in such a condition as should oblige them to seek their own mutual ruine and destruction ; so that had they continued in that state of war he left them in , they must have lived and died like gladiators , and have unavoidably perish'd at one time or other by one anothers swords ; and therefore that mankind owe the comfort of their lives not at all to their creator , but entirely to themselves ; forasmuch as the very laws of nature , whereby , according to this hypothesis , the world is preserved , were not establish'd by the divine providence ; but are only so many rules of art , being , as all other maximes of prudence and policy are , inventions of humane wit , and suppose man not in the natural state and posture of war , in which god left him , but in a preternatural one of his own contriving . but certainly the deity that made us , if we suppose him good , made us not to be miserable ; for so we must unavoidably have been in a perpetual state of war : and therefore to suppose he both made and left us in that condition , is directly to deny our creators goodness . and then if we suppose him wise , we cannot imagine he would frame a creation to destroy it self ; unless we can believe his only design was to sport himself in the folly and madness of his creatures , by beholding them by all the ways of force and fraud to conspire their own mutual destruction : and therefore if the creation of man were a product of the divine wisdom or goodness , his natural state must have been a condition of peace , and not such a state of war that should naturally tend to his misery , ruine , and utter destruction . § 5. ( 3. ) this hypothesis irrecoverably destroys the safety of all societies of mankind in the world : for if personal safety and private interest be the only foundation of all the laws of nature or principles of equity , i. e. if men endeavour peace , and enter into contracts of mutual trust , if they invade not the proprieties of others , if they think themselves obliged to promote the good of the society , if they submit themselves to the laws of the common-wealth , if they practise justice , equity , mercy , and all other virtues , if they refrain from cruelty , pride , revenge , and all other vices , only to secure their own personal safety and interest ; then whenever this obligation ceases , all the ties to justice and equity , that derive all their force and reason from it , must also cease ; and when any single person can hope to advance his own private interest by the ruine of the publick , it will be lawful for him to effect it ; and war , rebellion , and injuries will be at least as innocent as faith , justice , and obedience ; because these are good only in order to private interest , and therefore when those chance to be as conducive to it , they will then be as just and lawful . so that this single principle does as effectually work the subversion of all government , as if men were taught the most professed principles of rebellion , as , that all government is tyranny and usurpation ; that his majesties possession of the crown is his best title ; that whoever has wit or strength enough to wrest his scepter from him , has right to hold it . for as men of these and the like perswasions will never act them , but when opportunity invites ; and will be obedient to any government , till they can destroy it : so will those other rebel , as soon as they think it their interest . for when ever they can hope to mend their fortunes by rebellion , the same obligation , that restrain'd them from it , does now as forcibly invite them to it , that is self-interest , i. e. they cannot but think rebellion lawful , as oft as they think it safe . and there are no villains so mad or foolish as to attempt it upon other grounds . so that , though this author has assign'd us some not unuseful laws of nature , yet has he effectually enervated their force and usefulness , by resolving the reason of their obligation into self-interest ; and so laying the fundamental principles of all injustice , as the only foundation of all the rules of justice : for as 't is the nature and office of justice to maintain the common right of all , and to secure my neighbours happiness as well as my own ; so the formal obliquity of all injustice lies in pursuing of a private interest without regard to the common good of all and every member of the society . and therefore if private interest be the only reason and enforcement of the laws of nature , men will have no other motive to obey their constitutions , than what will as strongly oblige to break them ; i. e. if men are just and honest for no other reason than because 't is their interest , then when 't is their interest , they may ( and if they are wise will ) be unjust and dishonest . and so men that owne the laws of 〈…〉 this principle may be villains , 〈…〉 of all their restraints ; and the most lewd and profligate wretches will , as well as they , be just or unjust , as it serves their turns . for this principle , that engages men to be honest only as long as they must , will as effectually oblige them to be rogues as soon as they can . § 6. so that according to this hypothesis , mankind is left in as ill a condition after they have by pacts and covenants united into societies , and a state of peace , as they were in their natural state of war. for all covenants of mutual trust are ( according to its own rules ) in the state of nature invalid ; because under that men are under no obligations of justice and honesty to one another , and have no other measure of their actions but their interest ; and therefore as that might invite them in some circumstances to enter into bonds and contracts , so it may in others to break them . so that in the state of government all their promises , oaths , and contracts will prove as ineffectual as in the state of nature : partly , because the force of all contracts , made in the state of government , ariseth from the validity of the first compact , that was made in the state of nature ; that is , in that state in which it could have no validity ; partly , because they have no other tye but that of self-interest , and so can lay no other obligation upon us to observe them , than they might have done before . and therefore if mankind be once supposed in this natural state of war , they can never be delivered from it ; and after they have enter'd into covenants of peace , they would remain as much as before in a posture of war , and be subject to all the same dangers and miseries , that would have annoyed them if they had continued in their natural state . for if justice and fidelity be not supposed to be the law and duty of our natures , no covenants are of power enough to bring us under any obligation to them . now , having thus clearly blown up the foundations of this hypothesis , 't were but labour in vain to make particular enquiries into all the flaws and follies of its superstructures , seeing they must of necessity stand and fall together ; for if its subsequent propositions be coherently deduced from these fundamental principles , all the evidence and certainty they can pretend to , depends on them ; and therefore the premisses being once convicted of falshood , all pretences to truth in the conclusions must necessarily vanish . and if any of them happen to be true and rational , 't is not by vertue of these , but other principles . thus though the laws of nature , he assigns , may be useful to the ends of government and happiness of mankind ; yet , because upon those grounds , on which he assigns them , they would be no laws , that alone is sufficient evidence of the errour and vanity of his whole hypothesis ; seeing how good soever they may be in themselves , yet upon the principles , and in the method , in which he proposes them , they are of no force . in that self-interest being the only reason of their obligation , the interests of civil society come thereby to be no better secured with , than without them : because if they were not in force by vertue of any compact , all men would chuse to act according to them , when they thought it advantageous ; and when they have the utmost force his principles can give them , no man would think they obliged him , when ever he apprehended them disadvantageous . so that this malignant principle of meer self-interest running through the whole systeme , and twisting it self with every branch of his morality , it does not only eat out , and enervate its native life and vigour , but withal envenoms their natural truth and soundness with its own malignity . which principle being removed , and that influence it hath on other parts of this hypothesis being prevented , and withal the foundation on which it stands ruin'd , viz. his absurd and imaginary state of nature , we have perhaps cashier'd all that is either base or peculiar in it , and restored the true accounts of natural justice and right reason , viz. that all men have a natural right to happiness from the very design of their creation , that this cannot be acquired without mutual aids and friendships ; and therefore right reason dictates , that every man should have some concern for his neighbour , as well as himself : because this is made necessary to the welfare of the world by the natural state of things , and by this mutual exchange of love and kindness men support one another in the comforts of humane life . chap. v. a confutation of the consequences that some men draw from mr. hobs's principles in behalf of liberty of conscience . the contents . how a belief of the imposture of all religions is become the most powerful and fashionable argument for the toleration of all . though religion were a cheat , yet because the world cannot be govern'd without it ; they are the most mischievous enemies to government that tell the world it is so . religion is useful or dangerous in a state , as the temper of mind it breeds is peaceable or turbulent . the dread of invisible powers is not of it self sufficient to awe people into subjection , but tends more probably to tumults and seditions . this largely proved by the ungovernableness of the principles and tempers of some sects . fanaticism is as natural to the common people , as folly and ignorance ; and yet is more mischievous to government , than vice and debauchery . how the fanaticks of all nations and religions agree in the same principles of sedition . to permit different sects of religion in a common-wealth , is only to keep up so many incurable pretences and occasions of publick disturbance . the corrupt passions and humours of men make toleration infinitely unsafe . toleration only cried up by opprest parties , because it gives them opportunity to overturn the settled frame of things . every man that desires indulgence is engaged by his principles to endeavour changes and alterations . a bare indulgence of men in any religion , different from the establish'd way of worship , does but exasperate them against the state. § 1. and now the reason , why i have thus far pursued this principle , is , because 't is become the most powerful patron of the fanatick interest ; and a belief of the indifferency , or rather imposture of all religion , is now made the most effectual ( not to say most fashionable ) argument for liberty of conscience . for when men have once swallowed this principle , that mankind is free from all obligations antecedent to the laws of the common-wealth , and that the will of the sovereign power is the only measure of good and evil ; they proceed suitably to its consequences , to believe , that no religion can obtain the force of a law , till 't is establish'd for such by supreme authority ; that the holy scriptures were not laws to any man , till they were enjoyned by the christian magistrate ; that no man is under any obligation to assent to their truth , unless the governours of the common-wealth require it ; and that setting aside their commands , 't is no sin to believe our blessed saviour a villanous and lewd impostor ; and that , if the sovereign power would declare the alcoran to be canonical scripture , it would be as much the word of god as the four gospels . leviath . p. 3. c. 33. for if sovereigns in their own dominions are the sole legislators , then those books only are canonical , that is law , in every nation , which are established for such by the sovereign authority . so that all religions are in reality nothing but cheats and impostures , and at best but so many tales of imaginary and invisible powers , publickly allowed and encouraged , to awe the common people to obedience . leviath . p. 1. c. 12. who are betrayed into it by these four follies , a false opinion of ghosts and immaterial substances , that neither are , nor ever can be ; ignorance of second causes , devotion towards what men groundlesly fear ; and mistaking things casual for divine prognosticks . in brief , all religion is nothing but a cheat of policy , and was at first invented by the founders and legislators of common-wealths , and by them obtruded upon the credulous rabble for the ends of government . and therefore , though princes may wisely make use of the fables of religion to serve their own turns upon the silly multitude , yet 't is below their wisdom to be seriously concern'd themselves for such fooleries ; so that , provided their subjects will befool themselves with any one imposture , 't is not material which they single out ; in that all religions equally oblige to the belief of invisible powers , which is all that is requisite to the designs of policy . and as long as a prince can keep up any apprehensions of religion in the minds of his subjects , 't is no policy to disoblige and exasperate any of them , by interessing his power for one party more than another , and by forcing all other sects against their own inclinations to conform their belief to the perswasions of one faction ; but rather to endear them all to himself , by indulging them their liberty in their different follies : and so he may with more ease secure his government by abusing all , and yet disobliging none . § 2. in answer to this objection , 't is not material to my present purpose largely to examine & refute these wild and extravagant pretences , by asserting the truth and divine authority of religion , and giving a rational account of the grounds and principles , on which it stands : only let me observe that this discourse lies under no less prejudice than this , that if any of the principles of religion be true , then is all these mens policy false : but waving this too great advantage , i shall content my self only to discover of what noisom and pernicious consequence such principles are to the common-wealth , though it were granted that all religion were nothing but imposture . and this i shall do ( without reminding the reader how i have already prevented this objection in the first part of the discourse , when i shew'd what good or bad influence upon the state mens perswasions about religion have ) by these four ensuing considerations . first , then methinks his majesty is bound to con these men thanks for endeavouring to render the truth of religion suspected , and to possess mens minds with apprehensions of its being false ; whereby they effectually rob him of the best security of his crown , and strongest inducements of obedience to his laws . there being for certain nothing so absolutely necessary to the reverence of government , the peace of societies , and common interests of mankind , as a sense of conscience and religion : this is the strongest bond of laws , and only support of government ; without it the most absolute and unlimited powers in the world must be for ever miserably weak and precarious , and lie always at the mercy of every subjects passion and private interest . for when the obligations of conscience and religion are cashier'd , men can have no higher inducements to loyalty and obedience , than the considerations of their own private interest and security ; and then wherever these happen to fail , and interest and advantage invite to disobedience , men may do as they please : and when they have power to shake off authority , they have right too ; and a prosperous usurper shall have as fair a title to his crown as the most lawful prince ; all government will be founded upon force and violence , and kings nothing but terrible men with long swords . but when the ties of conscience are superinduced upon those of secular interest , this extends the power of princes to the hearts of their subjects , and secures them as much from the very thoughts , as attempts of treason . for nothing so strongly influences the minds of men , or so authoritatively commands their passions and inclinations , as religion ; forasmuch as no fears are ( not only to the considerate part of mankind , but to the ruder sort ) so vehement as those of hell , nor hopes so active as those of heaven : and therefore the commands of religion being back'd with such mighty sanctions , they must needs have infinitely more force to awe or allure the minds of men to a compliance , than any secular interests . whereas those men that think themselves above the follies of conscience , and either believe or regard not the evils threatned hereafter ( an attainment to which these our modern politicians do not blush to pretend , though it be but an odde piece of policy openly to owne and proclaim it ) must make their present interest the rule and measure of all their actions ; and can have no other obligation to obey their lawful superiours in what they command , than they have to disobey them , viz. their own security and self-preservation . whereas if these men lived under the restraints of conscience , and the serious apprehensions of religion , and believed the laws of their prince to be bound upon them by the laws of god , and that under the threatnings of everlasting misery ; their loyalty would be tied upon them by all that men can either hope or fear , and they would have all the engagements to obedience that the serious reflections upon a happy or miserable eternity could lay upon them . but if the principles of government have so essential a dependence upon those of religion , if nothing be powerful enough to secure obedience but the hopes and fears of another life , if all humane laws have their main force and efficacy from the apprehensions of religion , if oaths , promises , and covenants , and whatsoever else whereby civil societies are upheld , are made firm by nothing but the bonds of religion ; then let authority judge , how much it is beholden to those men , who labour to bring it into publick disreputation , and to possess their subjects with an opinion of its falshood : whereby they not only set them loose from their authority , but enrage them against it , by perswading them they are governed by cheats and impostures , and that the magistrate builds his dominion upon their folly and simplicity , there being nothing more hateful to mankind than to be imposed upon : so that though religion were a cheat , they are apparently the greatest enemies to government , that tell the world it is so . § 3. but secondly , nothing more concerns the interest of the civil magistrate , than to take care , what particular doctrines of religion are taught within his dominions ; because some are peculiarly advantageous to the ends of government , and others as naturally tending to its disturbance : some incline the minds of men to candour , moderation , and ingenuity , and work them to a gentle and peaceable temper , by teaching humility , charity , meekness , and obedience : now 't is the interest of princes to cherish and propagate such doctrines among their subjects , that will make them not only quiet , but useful in the common-wealth . but others there are that infect the minds of men with pride , peevishness , malice , spight , and envy ; that incline them to delight in detracting from princes , and speaking reproachfully of government , and breed in them such restless and seditious tempers , that 't is next to an impossibility for any prince to please or oblige them . now , as for such perverse and arrogant sects of men , it certainly concers governours to suppress them as so many routs of traytors and rebels . religion then is either useful or dangerous in a common-wealth , as the temper of mind it breeds is peaceable or turbulent : and as there is nothing more serviceable to the interests of government , so there is nothing more mischievous : and therefore nothing more concerns princes , than to take care what doctrines are taught within their dominions . for seeing religion has , and will have the strongest influence upon the minds of men ; when that renders them averse and troublesom to government , 't is that all the power nor policy in the world can keep them peaceable , till such perswasions are rooted out of their minds by severity of laws and penalties . and , as long as men think themselves obliged , upon pain of damnation , to disobedience and sedition , not any secular threatnings and inflictions are of force enough to bridle the exorbitances of conscience . there is not any vice so incident to the common people as superstition , nor any so mischievous . 't is infinitely evident from the histories and records of all ages and nations , that there is nothing so vicious or absurd but may pass for religion , and ( what is worse ) the more wild and giddy conceits of religion are ever suckt in by the multitude with the greatest passion and eagerness ; and there is no one thing in the world so difficult , as to bring the common people to true notions of god and his worship ; insomuch that 't is no paradox to affirm , that religion ( i. e. what is mistaken for it ) has been one of the greatest principles of mischief and wickedness in the world. and if so , then certainly nothing requires so much care and prudence in the civil magistrate , as its due conduct and management . so that the dread of invisible powers is of it self no more serviceable to awe the people into subjection , then to drive them into tumults and confusions ; and if it chance to be accompanied ( as it easily may ) with tumultuous and seditious perswasions , 't is an invincible obligation to villany and rebellion . and therefore it must needs above all things concern princes , to look to the doctrines and articles of mens belief ; seeing 't is so great odds that they prove of dangerous consequence to the publick peace : and in that case , the apprehensions of a deity , and a world to come , makes their danger almost irresistible . sect. 4. there are some sects whose principles , and some persons whose tempers will not suffer them to live peaceable in any common-wealth . for what if some men believe , that if princes refuse to reform religion themselves , 't is lawful for their godly subjects to do it , and that by violence and force of arms ? what if they believe , that princes are but executioners of the decrees of the presbytery ; and that in case of disobedience to their spiritual governours , they may be excommunicated , and by consequence deposed ? what if they believe , that dominion is founded in grace ; and therefore that all wicked kings forfeit their crowns , and that it is in the power of the people of god to bestow them where they please ? and what if others believe , that to puruse their success in villany and rebellion is to follow providence ; and that when the event of war has deliver'd up kings into their power , then not to depose or murther them , were to slight the guidance of gods providential dispensations ? are not these , and the like innocent propositions ( think you ) mightily conducive to the peace and settlement of common-wealths ? such articles of faith as these cannot but make brave and obedient subjects , and he must needs be a glorious and powerful prince , where such conceits are the main ingredients of his subjects religion . let any man shew me , what doctrines could have been more unluckily contrived to disturb government than these . and if men would study on purpose to frame and model a rebellious faith , these must have been their fundamental articles : and yet 't is sufficiently known where they have been both believed and practised . but further , is there not a sort of melancholy religionists in the world , whose very genious inclines them to quarrels and exceptions against the state , and management of publick affairs ? there is nothing so malepart as a splenetick religion ; the inward discontent and uneasiness of mens own minds maintains it self upon the faults and miscarriages of others : and we may observe , how this humour is ever venting it self in sighs and complaints for the badness of the times ( i. e. in effect of the government ) and in telling and aggravating little stories , that may reflect upon the wisdom and ability of their superiours . 't is impossible to please their fretful and anxious minds ; the very delights and recreations of the court shall stir their envy , and the vanities of the great ones grieve and wound their tender souls . however princes behave themselves , they can never win upon the affections of these people ; their very prosperity shall disoblige them , and they are ready upon all occasions to bring them to account for their misdemeanours : and if any of the grandees happen to be discontented , they have here a party ready formed for the purpose , to revenge their injury , and bring evil counsellors , that seduce the king , to iustice. and 't is not impossible but there may be a sort of proud and haughty men among us ( not over-well affected to monarchick government ) who , though they scorn , yet patronize this humour , as a check to the insolence and presumption of princes . again , are there not some whole sects of men , all whose religion is made up of nothing but passion , rancour , and bitterness ? all whose devotion is little better than a male-contentedness , their piety than a sanctified fury , and their zeal than a proud and spightful malice ; and who , by the genius of their principles , are brought infinitely and irrecoverably under the power of their passions ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . now , nothing imports governours so much as to manage mens passions ; in that 't is these , rather than our appetites , that disturb the world. a person that is debaucht and intemperate is indeed useless to the common-wealth , but he that is turbulent and passionate is dangerous . but then when passion is fired with religious zeal , nothing can temper its outragious and fanatick heats ; but it works the minds of men into rancour and bitterness , and drives them into all manner of savage and inhumane practices . princes have never found any thing so restive and ungovernable , as sectarian madness ; no malice so spightful and implacable , as the zeal of a godly party ; nor any rage so fierce and merciless , as sanctified barbarism . all the ancient tyranny has in some places been out-done by a thorough-godly reformation : zeal for the glory of god has often turn'd whole nations into shambles , fill'd the world with continual butcheries and massacres , and flesh'd it self with slaughters of myriads of mankind . and when men think their passions warranted by their religion , how is it possible it should be otherwise ? for this obliges them by their greatest hopes and fears to act them to the highest : and 't is easie to imagine what calm and peaceable things those men must be , who think it their duty to enforce and enrage their passions with the obligations of conscience . and yet alas ! how few are they , who have wisdom enough to keep their zeal clean from these sowre and crabbed mixtures ? the generality of men are scarce sensible of their spiritual wickednesses ; and 't is observable , that in all ages , and all religions of the world , few people have taken notice of them beside their wise men and philosophers . and even among the professors of christianity it self , notwithstanding that our religion has made such special provisions against all excesses of passion , and establish'd love , charity , moderation , patience , candor , and ingenuity , as its prime , and fundamental duties ; yet the spirit of meekness and humility soon decayed , with its primitive and apostolical professors ; and within a few centuries of years the church was over-run with some sects of men , much of the same temper with some of our modern saints . so that even in true and innocent perswasions 't is necessary to asswage the distempers and indiscretions of a forward zeal : the giddy multitude judge weakly , fancy strongly , and act passionately ; and , unless restrain'd by wary and sober laws , will drive on so furiously in a good cause , till they run their religion into folly and faction , and themselves into tumults and riotous proceedings . what socrates once said of vertue , that when it is not conducted by prudence , it is but pedantry , and a phantastick thing , is much more true of religion ; which , when it wants the guidance and ornament of this vertue , may be folly , or madness , or any thing rather than it self . in brief , fanaticism is both the greatest , and the easiest vice that is incident to religion ; 't is a weed that thrives in all soils , and there is the same fanatick spirit , that mixes it self with all the religions in the world. and 't is as natural to the common people , as the proud , or ignorant , or perverse , or factious , or stubborn , or eager , or passionate : for when ever any of these vices or follies are twisted with mens apprehensions of religion , they naturally work , and ferment their minds into a boysterous and tumultuary zeal . and yet how infinitely difficult it is to cure the common heard of these vices , the experience of all ages is too great a demonstration : so that there is nothing so apparently necessary , or difficult , as to govern the vulgar rout in their conceptions of religion ; seeing 't is so natural for them both to mix and heigthen , yes , and sanctifie their passions with their consciences . and from hence it is , that though the fanaticks in all nations may disagree in the objects and matters of their superstition , according to the different customs of their country , and variety of their educations ; yet as for their tendency to disturbance and sedition in the state , 't is in all places the same to all intents and purposes : and those unquiet sects , that have often disturb'd , and sometimes subverted whole kingdoms in africa , if they had hapned to have been born in europe , would have done the same here ; where though their religion might have been different , yet would their genius have been the same , as rising from the same conjunction of conscience and passion . and therefore it cannot but be a wonder to any man , that is acquainted with the experience of former ages , to see governours , after so many warnings , so insensible of this mischief : and however they may think themselves unconcern'd to restrain the opinions of any dissenting sect , as being perhaps but foolish and inconsiderable in themselves ; yet nothing can more highly concern them than to provide against their inclinations , as being generally of a sad and dangerous consequence to the state. and this at present may suffice to evince , how much it concerns authority to look to the particular principles and inclinations of every sect ; and to prove , that the meer belief of invisible powers , is so far from being religion enough to awe men to obedience ; that unless it be temper'd with a due sense of vertue , and managed with special prudence and discretion , it rather tends to make the rude multitude more head-strong and ungovernable . sect. 5. thirdly , to permit different sects of religion in a common-wealth , is only to keep up so many pretences and occasions for publick disturbance ; the factions of religion are ever the most seditious , and the less material their difference , the more implacable their hatred : as the turks think it more acceptable to god , to kill one persian than seventy christians . no hinge so vehemently alienates mens affections , as variety of judgment in matters of religion ; here they cannot disagree , but they must quarrel too : and when religion divides mens minds , no other common interest can unite them ; and where zeal dissolves friendship , the ties of nature are not strong enough to reconcile it . every faction is at open defiance with every faction , they are always in a state and posture of war , and engaged in a mortal and irreconcileable hatred against each other . when ever men part communion , every party must of necessity esteem the other impious and heretical ; in that they never divide but with pretences , that they could not agree without being guilty of some sin or other , as blasphemy , or idolatry , or superstition , or heresie , or the like : for all agree in this principle , that peace ought always to be preserved , where it can without offending god , and offering violence to conscience : and therefore they cannot but look upon one another , as lying under the divine wrath and displeasure , and consequently , in a damnable condition : and then are both parties engaged , as they love god , and the souls of men , to labour one another ruine . and when the party is form'd , and men are listed into it by chance and education , the distinguishing opinion of the party is to them the most material and fundamental article of their belief ; and so they must account of all that either disowne or deny it , as of heathens , infidels , and enemies to the faith. besides that , all men are naturally more zealous about the principles in which they differ , than about those in which they agree . opposition whets and sharpens their zeal , because it endangers the truths they contend for ; whereas those that are not opposed are secure and out of hazard of being stifled by the adverse party , that is concern'd equally with themselves for their preservation . and hence we see , by daily experience , that men , who are tame and cool enough in the fundamentals of religion , are yet utterly impatient about their own unlearned and impertinent wranglings , and lay a greater stress upon the speculations of their own sect , than upon the duties of an absolute and indispensable necessity ; only because those are contradicted by their adversaries , and these are not . well then , seeing all dissenting parties are possess'd with a furious and passionate zeal to promote their own perswasions , and seeing they are perswaded that their zeal is in god's cause , and against the enemies of god's truths ; how vain is it to expect peace and settlement in a common-wealth , where their religion keeps men in a state of war , where zeal is arm'd against zeal , and conscience encounters conscience , where the glory of god and the salvation of souls lies at stake , and where curse ye meroz is the word of both parties ? so that whatsoever projects fansiful men may propose to themselves , if we consider the passions of humane nature , as long as differences and competitions in religion are kept up , it will be impossible to keep down mutual hatreds , jealousies , and animosities ; and so many divided churches as there are in a state , there will ever be so many different armies , who , though they are not always in actual fighting , are always in a disposition to it . beside , where there are divided interests of religion in the same kingdom , how shall the prince behave himself towards them ? if he go about to ballance them against one another , this is the ready way to forfeit his interest in them all ; and whilst he seems concern'd for no party , no party will be really concern'd for him , every one having so much esteem for it self , as to think it ought to enjoy more of his favour and countenance than any other . and withal 't is an infinite trouble and difficulty to poise them so equally , but that one party shall grow more strong and numerous than the rest ; and then there is no appeasing their zeal , till it has destroyed and swallowed up all the weaker interests . but suppose he be able to manage them so prudently , as always to keep the ballance equal ; he does thereby but keep up so many parties , that are ready form'd to joyn with any emergent quarrels of state : and whenever the grandees fall out , 't is but heading one of these , and there is an army . and let men but reflect upon all the late civil wars , and rebellions of christendom , and then tell me , which way they could either have been commenced or continued , had it not been for different factions of religion . if he side with one party , and by his favour mount it above the rest , that not only discontents , but combines all the other dissenting factions into an united opposition against his own : and it becomes their common interest , to work and contrive its ruine ; its prosperity does but exasperate the competition of all its rivals into rage and indignation : and as success makes it self more secure in its settlement , so it makes them more restless and industrious to overturn it . no party can ever be quiet or content as long as 't is under any other , but will ever be heaving and struggling , to dismount the power that keeps it down : and therefore we find that all dissenters from the establish'd frame of things are always assaulting it with open violence , or undermining it by secret practices , and will hazard the state , and all , to free themselves from oppression ; and oppress'd they are , as long as they are the weaker party . and therefore we never find this way of toleration put in practice under any government , but where other exigences of state required and kept up a standing army ; and by this means 't is not so difficult to prevent the broils and contentions of zeal : but this is only a more violent way of governing mens consciences , and instead of restraining them by laws & penalties , it does the same thing with forts and cittadels : so that unless we are willing to put our selves to the expence and hazard of keeping up standing forces , indulgence to dissenting zealots does but expose the state to the perpetual squabbles and wars of religion . and we may as well suppose all men to be wise and honest , and upon that account cancel all the laws of justice and civil government , as imagine , where there are divided factions in religion , that men will be temperate and peaceable in the enjoyment of their own conceits , and not disturb the publick peace to promote and establish them ; when 't is so well known from the experience of all ages , that nothing has ever been a more effectual engine to work popular commotions , than changes and reformations in religion . sect. 6. so that though the state think it self unconcern'd to restrain mens perswasions and opinions , yet methinks they should be a little concern'd to prevent the tumults and disturbances that naturally arise from their propagation . and could it be secured , that if all men were indulged their liberty , they would use it modestly , and be satisfied with their own freedom , then ( i confess ) toleration of all opinions would not be of so fatal and dangerous consequence ; as if all men were as wise and honest as socrates , they might , as well as he , be their own law , and left entirely to their own liberty , as to all the entercourses and transactions of humane life . but alas ! this is made infinitely impossible , from the corrupt passions and humours of men : all sects ever were , and ever will be , fierce and unruly to inlarge their own interests , invading or supplanting whatever opposes their increase , and will all certainly conspire the ruine of that party that prevails and triumphs over the rest ; every faction ever apprehending it its due to be supreme : and there will ever be a necessity of reformation , as long as all factions are not uppermost ; and it will be crime enough in any one party , to be superiour to another . so that if all our dissenting sectaries were allowed their entire liberty , nothing can be expected ( especially from people of their complexion ) but that they should all plot together against the present establishment of the church ; every combination being fully perswaded of its worthlesness in comparison to it self : for unless they had apprehended their own way more excellent , they had never divided from ours . beside that 't is a fundamental principle that runs through all their sects , that they are bound under pain of eternal damnation to labour their utmost to establish the worship of god in in its greatest purity and perfection ; and withal apprehending that way now established by law defective and superstitious , they cannot but be bound in conscience to endeavour its utter ruine and subversion ; which design when they have once compassed , they entertaining the same opinion of each other as they do of us , they will turn their weapons upon themselves , and with as much zeal contrive each others destruction as they did ours : and the result of all will be , that the common-wealth will be eternally torn with intestine quarrels and commotions , till it grow so wise again as to suppress all parties but one ; that is , till it return to that wisdom and prudence from whence it parted by toleration . and therefore nothing can be more vulgarly observable , than that though all parties , whilst under the power of a more prevailing interest , have cried up toleration , as the most effectual instrument to shake and dissettle the present frame of things ; yet have they no sooner effected their design , than they have immediately put in to scramble for the supremacy themselves ; which if they once obtain , they have ever used with as much rigour and severity upon all dissenters , as they ever felt themselves . so that this principle of liberty of conscience much resembles that of community of goods ; for as those men cry up equality of estates , as a most reasonable piece of justice , that have but a small share themselves ; yet whenever their pretence succeeds , and they have advanced their own fortunes , and served their own turns , they are the first that shall then cry it down , and oppress their inferiours with more cruelty than ever themselves felt whilst in a lower station ; so do those whose private perswasions happen to cross the publick laws , easily pretend to liberty of conscience . one must yield ; and because their stubborn zeal scorns to bend to the commands of authority , these must be forced to give place to that : so that when conscience and authority happen to encounter , all the dispute is , which shall have most force in publick laws , whether my own or my princes opinion ? but how plausibly soever this notion may be pleaded by men out of power , 't is ever laid aside as soon as ever they come into it ; and the greatest pretenders to it when oppress'd , are always the greatest zealots against it , as soon as it has mounted themselves into power , as well knowing it to be the most effectual engine to overturn any settled frame of things . in brief , 't is reformation men would have , and not indulgence ; which they only seek to gain ground for the working of their mines , and planting of their engines , to subvert the established state of things . for if we demand , wherefore they would be born with in their dissentions from our way of worship ? they answer , because they cannot conform to it in conscience , i. e. because they apprehend it sinful ; for otherwise they must think themselves guilty of the most intollerable schism and rebellion , to create factions and divisions in a common-wealth , when they may avoid it without any violence to their consciences : but if they apprehend our way of worship upon any account sinful , then are they plainly obliged in conscience to root it out , as displeasing to almighty god , and in its stead to plant and establish their own . and now if this be the issue of this principle , let magistrates consider how fatal and hazardous alterations in religion have ever been to the common-wealth . they cannot pluck a pin out of the church , but the state immediately shakes and totters ; and if they will allow their subjects the liberty of changing and innovating in religion ( as it is apparent from the premisses they must , if they allow them their pretences to liberty of conscience ) they do but give them advantages for eternal popular commotions and disturbances . sect. 7. fourthly , a bare indulgence of men in the free exercise of any religion , different from the publick profession , can lay no obligation upon the party . perhaps when the rigour of a law , under which they have smarted a while , is at first relaxed , this indeed they may at present take for a kindness , because 't is really a favour in comparison to their former condition ; and therefore as long as the memory of that remains fresh upon their minds , it may possibly affect them with some grateful resentments . but alas ! these affections quickly vanish , and then what before was favour , is now become iustice ; and their prince did but restore them to their just and lawful rights , when he took off his tyrannical laws and impositions from the consciences of his best subjects . while those unjust laws were in force , he oppress'd and persecuted the people of god ; and therefore when he cancels them , all the kindness he is guilty of , is only to repent of his tyranny and persecution , which is no favour , and by consequence no obligation . and ( what is more considerable ) all the dissenting parties he permits , and does not countenance , he disobliges . is this all the kindness ( say they ) he can afford the godly , not to persecute them by law and force to their utter ruine ? are we beholden to him barely for suffering us to live in our native soil , and enjoy only our fundamental priviledges ? is this all the reward and encouragement we deserve ? are not we the praying and serious people of the nation , for whose sakes only the lord is pleased to stay among us ? and were it not for us , would he not perfectly forsake and abandon it ? and is this all our requital , to be thus slighted , and thus despised , only for our zeal to god , and serviceableness to the publick , by that power and interest we have in him , to keep him among us ; whilst vain and useless persons are countenanced and encouraged with all places of office and employment ? these are the natural results of the minds of men , who think themselves scorn'd and disrespected , especially when flush'd with any conceit and high opinion of their own godliness . and 't is an eternal truth , that for the godly party not to be uppermost , is and ever will be persecution . for nothing more certain , than that all men entertain the best opinion of their own party , otherwise they had never enrolled themselves in it : and therefore if the state value them not at as high a rate as they do themselves , they are scorn'd and injured , because they have not that favour and countenance they deserve . and so unless they have publick encouragement , as well as indulgence , they have reason to be discontented , because they have not their due . and if the prince do not espouse their party , he undervalues , and consequently disgusts them ; and if he joyn himself to any other ( as there is a necessity of his owning some profession ) he does not only disoblige , but alienate their affections , by embracing an interest they both hate and scorn . for , where-ever there is difference of religion , there is opposition too ; because men would never divide from one another , but upon grounds of real dislike ; and therefore they are always contrary in those differences that distinguish their parties . and this cannot but be a mighty endearment of their prince to them , when he neglects and discountenances his best subjects , only because they are the godly party ( for so every party is to it self ) to join himself to their profest and irreconcileable enemies . and they will be wonderfully forward to assist a patron of idolatry and superstition , or an enemy to the power of godliness ( for these are the softest words that different sects can afford one another . ) and withal i might adde , that they must needs be much in love with him , when they have reason to believe , that they lie perpetually under his displeasure , and that he looks upon them as little better than enemies . so that if a prince permit different parties and interests of religion in his dominions , however he carries himself towards them , he shall have at least all parties discontented but one : for if himself be of any , he displeases all but that ; if of none , he displeases all : and zealous and religious people of all sorts must needs be wonderfully in love with an atheist ; and there is no remedy , but he must at least be thought so , if he be not of any distinct and visible profession . chap. vi. of things indifferent , and of the power of the civil magistrate in things undetermined by the word of god. the contents . the mystery of puritanism lies in this assertion , that nothing ought to be established in the worship of god , but what is expresly commanded in the word of god. the wildness , novelty , and unreasonableness of this principle . it makes meer obedience to lawful authority sinful . it takes away all possibility of settlement in any church or nation . it is the main pretense of all pious villanies . it cancels all humane laws ; and makes most of the divine laws useless and impracticable . it obliges men to be seditious in all churches in the world , in that there is no church that has not some customs and vsages peculiar to it self . all that pretend this principle do and must act contrary to it . the exorbitancy of this principle makes all yielding and condescension to the men that plead it unsafe and impolitick . wherein the perfection and sufficiency of the holy scriptures consists . of the vanity of their distinction , who tell us , that the civil magistrate is to see the laws of christ executed , but to make none of his own . the dangerous consequents of their way of arguing , who would prove , that god ought to have determined all circumstances of his own worship . 't is scarce possible to determine all circumstances of any outward action , they are so many and so various . the magistrate has no way to make men of this perswasion comply with his will , but by forbidding what he would have done . the puritans upbraided with mr. hooker's book of ecclesiastical politie , and challeng'd to answer it . their out-cries against popery , will-worship , superstition , adding to the law of god , &c. retorted upon themselves . the main objection against the magistrates power in religion proposed , viz. that 't is possible that he may impose things sinful and superstitious . this objection lies as strongly against all manner of government . our inquiry is after the best way of settling things , not that possibly might be , but that really is . though ecclesiastical iurisdiction may be abused , yet 't is then less mischievous than liberty of conscience . the reason of the necessity of subjection to the worst of governours , because tyranny is less mischievous than rebellion or anarchy . the author of the book entituled , vindiciae contra tyrannos , confuted . that it may , and often does so happen , that 't is necessary to punish men for such perswasions into which they have innocently abused themselves . actions are punishable by humane laws , not for their sinfulness , but for their ill consequence to the publick . this applied to the case of a well-meaning conscience . sect. 1. all things , as well sacred as civil , that are not already determined as to their morality , i. e. that are not made necessary duties by being commanded , or sinful actions by being forbidden either by the law of nature , or positive law of god , may be lawfully determined either way by the supreme authority ; and the conscience of every subject is tied to yield obedience to all such determinations . this assertion i lay down to oppose the first and the last and the great pretence of non-conformity , and wherein ( as one observeth ) the very mystery of puritanism consisteth , viz. that nothing ought to be established in the worship of god , but what is authorized by some precept or example in the word of god ; that is the complete and adequate rule of worship : and therefore , christian magistrates are only to see that executed that christ has appointed in religion , but to bring in nothing of their own ; they are tied up neither to add nor diminish , neither in the matter nor manner : so that whatever they injoin in divine worship , if it be not expresly warranted by a divine command , how innocent soever it may be in it self , it presently upon that account loses not only its liberty but its lawfulness ; it being as requisite to christian practice , that things indifferent should still be kept indifferent , as things necessary be held necessary . this very principle is the only fountain and foundation of all puritanism , from which it was at first derived , and into which it is at last resolved . a pretence so strangely wild and humorsom , that it is to me an equal wonder , either that they should be so absurd as seriously to believe it ; or , if they do not , that they should be so impudent , as thus long and thus confidently to pretend it , when it has not the least shadow of foundation either from reason or from scripture ; and was scarce ever so much as thought of , till some men having made an unreasonable separation from the church of england , were forced to justifie themselves by as unreasonable pretences . for , what can be more incredible , than that things that were before lawful and innocent , should become sinful upon no other score than their being commanded , i. e. that meer obedience to lawful authority should make innocent actions criminal ? for the matter of the law is supposed of it self indifferent ; and therefore if obedience to the law be unlawful , it can be so for no other reason than because 't is obedience . so that if christian liberty be so awkard a thing ( as these men make it ) 't is nothing else but christian rebellion , 't is a duty that binds men to disobedience , and forbids things under that formality , because authority commands them . now what a reproach to the gospel is this , that it should be made the only plea for sedition ? what a scandal to religion , that tenderness of conscience should be made the only principle of disobedience ; and that nothing should so much incline men to be refractory to authority , as their being conscientious ? what a perverse folly is it to imagine , that nothing but opposition to government can secure our liberty ? and what a cross-grain'd thing is it , to restrain things only because they are matters of liberty ; and first to forbid princes to command them because they are lawful , and then subjects to do them only because they are commanded . but to expose the absurdity of this principle by some more particular considerations . §2 . first , the follies and mischiefs that issue from it , are so infinite , that there can be no setled frame of things in the world , that it will not overturn : and if it be admitted to all intents and purposes , there can never be an end of disturbances , and alterations in the church ; in that there never was , nor ever can be any form of worship in the world , that is to all circumstances prescribed in the world of god : and therefore if this exception be thought sufficient to destroy one , there is no remedy but it may , as occasion requires , serve as well to cashier all ; and by consequence take away all possibility of settlement . thus when upon this principle , the disciplinarians separated from the church of england , the independents upon the same ground separated from them , the anabaptists from the independents , the familists from the anabaptists , and the quakers from the familists , and every faction divided , and subdivided among themselves into innumerable sects , and undersects ; and as long as men act up to it , there is no remedy , but innovations must be endless . if it be urged against lord-bishops , 't is as severe against lay-presbyters ; if against musick in churches , then farewel singing of psalms in rhime ; if against the cross , why not against sprinkling in baptism ? and if against cathedral churches , then down go all steeple-houses : if against one thing , then against every thing ; and there is nothing in the exteriour parts of religion , but the two sacraments , that can possibly escape its impeachment . all the pious villanies , that have ever disturbed the christian world , have shelter'd themselves in this grand maxime , that iesus christ is the only law-maker to his church ; and whoever takes upon himself to prescribe any thing in religion , invades his kingly office. the gnosticks of old so abused this pretence to justifie any seditious and licentious practices , that they made heathen princes look upon christianity as an enemy to government ; and the fanaticks of late have so vex'd and embroil'd christendom with the same principle , that christian princes themselves begin to be of the same perswasion . 't is become the only patron and pretext of sedition : and when any subjects have a mind to set themselves free from the laws of their prince , they can never want this pretence to warrant their disobedience . seeing there is no nation in the world that has not divers laws , that are not recorded by the four evangelists ; and therefore if all humane institutions intrench upon our saviours kingly prerogative , they are , and ever must be , provided with matters of quarrel to disturb government , and justifie rebellion . § 3. secondly , nay further this fond pretence , if made use of to all the ends , for which it might as wisely serve , would cancel all humane laws , and make most of the divine laws useless ; which have only described the general lines of duty , but left their particular determinations to the wisdom of humane laws . now the laws of god cannot be put in practice , but in particular cases and circumstances , these cannot be determin'd but by the laws of man ; therefore if he can command nothing , but what is already prescribed to us in the word of god , he can have no power to see the divine laws put in execution . for where are described all the rules of justice and honesty ? where are determined all doubts and questions of conscience ? where are decided all controversies of right and wrong ? where are recorded all the laws of government and policy ? why therefore should humane authority be allowed to interpose in these great affairs , and yet be denied it in the customs of churches and rules of decency ? there is no possible reason to be assign'd but their own humour and fond opinion , they are resolved to believe it , and that is argument enough , for 't is unanswerable . how comes this proposition to be now limited to matters of meer religion , but only because this serves their turn ; for otherwise , why are not the holy scriptures as perfect a rule of civil , as of ecclesiastical policy ? why should they not be as complete a system of ethicks , as they are a canon of worship ? why do not these men require from the scriptures express commands for every action they do in common life ? how dare they take any physick , but what is prescribed in the word of god ? how dare they commence a suit at law , without warranty from scripture ? how dare they do any natural action , without particular advice and direction of holy writ ? § 4. thirdly , but as foolish as this opinion is , its mischief equals its folly ; for 't is impossible but that these sons of strife and singularity must have been troublesom and seditious in all churches and common-wealths . had they lived under the jewish church , why then , where has moses commanded the feast of purim , the feast of the dedication , the fasts of the fourth , the fifth , the seventh , and the tenth months : what warrant for the building of synagogues ? and what command for that significant ceremony of wearing sack-cloth and ashes , in token of humiliation ? if in the primitive ages of christianity , why then , where did our saviour appoint the love-feasts ? where has he instituted the kiss of charity ? where has he commanded the observations of lent and easter ? where the lords-day sabbath ? and , where all their other commemorative festivals ? vide tertull . de coronâ , c. 3. will they retreat to the lutheran churches , they will there meet with not only all the same , but many more antichristian and superstitious ceremonies to offend their tender consciences , and will find themselves subject to the same discipline and government , saving that their superintendents want the antichristian honours and revenues of the english bishops , partly through the poverty of the country , partly through the injury of sacriledge , but mainly because the church revenues are in the possession of romish bishops ? will they to france , there , notwithstanding the unsetled state of the protestants of that nation , through want of the assistance of the civil power , they shall meet with their liturgies , and establisht forms of prayer , and change of apparel for divine service , as well as at home ? if they will to geneva , there mr. calvin's common-prayer-book is as much imposed , as the liturgy of the church of england ; there they are enjoyn'd the use of wafer-cakes , the custom of godfathers , and godmothers , bidding of prayer , proper psalms not only for days , but for hours of the day , with divers other rites and ceremonies , that are no where recorded in the word of god. in a word , what church in the world can affirm these were the only customs of the apostolical age , and that the primitive church never used more or less than these ? so that these men of scruple , that renounce communion with the church of england , must do the same with all churches in the world ; in that there is not any one church in christendom , whose laws and customs are not apparently liable either to the same , or as great exceptions . now magistrates must needs be obligd to deal wonderful gently with such tender consciences as these , that are acted by such nice and unhappy principles , as must force them to be troublesom and unpeaceable in any common-wealth in the world. nay , what is more notorious than all this , these men have all along , in pursuit of this principle , run directly counter to their own practices and perswasions . for , not to puzzle them to discover in which of the gospels is injoyn'd the form of publick penance in the kirk of scotland , or to find out the stool of repentance either among the works of bezaleel , or the furniture of the temple ; we read indeed of beesoms , and flesh-forks , and pots , and shovels , and candlesticks , but not one syllable of joynt-stools . let them tell me , what precept or example they have in the holy scriptures for singing psalms in meeter ? where has our saviour or his apostles enjoyn'd a directory for publick worship ? and that which themselves imposed , what divine authority can it challenge , beside that of an ordinance of lords and commons ? what precept in the word of god can they produce for the significant form of swearing ( by laying their hand upon the bible ) which yet they never scrupled ? what scripture command have they for the three significant ceremonies of the solemn league and covenant , viz. that the whole congregation should take it ( 1. ) uncovered , ( 2. ) standing , ( 3. ) with their right hand lift up bare . now , what a prodigious piece of impudence was this , that when they had not only written so many books with so much vehemence against three innocent ceremonies of the church , only because they were significant , but had also involved the nation in a civil war ( in a great measure ) for their removal , and had arm'd themselves and their party against their sovereign with this holy league of rebellion , that even then they should impose three others , so grosly and so apparently liable to all their own objections ? what clearer evidence can we possibly have , that it is not conscience , but humour and peevishness that dictates their scruples ? and , what instance have we , in any nation of the world , of any schism and faction so unreasonably begun and continued ? the rebellion of corah indeed may resemble , but nothing can equal it . and from hence we may discover , how vain a thing it is to make proposals and condescensions to such unreasonable men , when 't is so impossible to satisfie all their demands ; and suppose we should yield and deliver up to their zeal , those harmless ceremonies , they have so long worried with so much fury and impatience ; it would only cherish them in their restless and ungovernable perswasions : for whilst their peevish tempers are acted by this exorbitant principle , the affairs of religion can never be so setled , as to take away all occasions and pretences of quarrel ; in that there never can be any circumstances of religious worship , against which this principle may not as rationally be urged ( and 't is impossible to perform religious worship without some circumstance or other : and if all men make not use of it against all particulars , 't is because they are humoursom as well as seditious , and so allow one thing upon the same principle they disavow another : for certainly otherwise it were impossible , that any men should , when they pray , refuse to wear a surplice ; and yet when they swear , ( which is but another sort of divine worship ) never scruple to kiss the gospel . so that whoever seriously imbibes this perswasion , and upon that account withdraws himself from the communion of the church , he understands not the consequences of his opinion ; if it does not lead him down to the lowest folly of quakerism , which after divers gradual exorbitances of other less extravagant sects , was but the last and utmost improvement of this principle . and therefore , whilst men are possess'd with such a restless and untoward perswasion , what can be more apparently vain , than to talk of accommodations , or to hope for any possibility of quiet and setlement , till authority shall see it necessary ( as it will first or last ) to scourge them into better manners , and wiser opinions ? so that we see the weight of the controversie lies not so much in the particular matters in debate , as in the principles upon which 't is managed ; and for this very reason , though we are not so fond as to believe the constitutions of the church unalterable , yet we deem it apparently absurd , to forego any of her establish'd ceremonies out of compliance with these mens unreasonable demands : which as it would be coarsly impolitick upon divers other accounts , so mainly by yielding up her laws , and by consequence submitting her authority to such principles as must be eternal and invincible hindrances of peace and setlement . this , let them consider whom it most concerns . § 5. fourthly , as for their principle of the perfection and sufficiency of the holy scriptures , 't is undeniably certain as to the fundamental truths , and substantial duties of christian religion ; but when this rule , that is suited only to things necessary , is as confidently applied to things accessory , it lays in the minds of men impregnable principles of folly and superstition : for confounding them in their different apprehensions between the substantial duties , and external circumstances of religion ; and making them of equal value and necessity , it makes the doing , or not doing of a thing , necessary to procure the divine acceptance , which god himself has not made so ; and places a religion in things that are not religious , and possesseth the minds of men with false and groundless fears of god : wherein consisteth the very essence and formality of superstition . whereas were they duly instructed in the great difference between things absolutely necessary , and things meerly decent , and circumstantial ; this would not only preserve them in the right notions of good and evil , but also keep up the purity of religion , decency of worship , and due reverence of authority . and therefore when these men would punctually tye up the magistrate to add nothing to the worship of god , but what is enjoyn'd in the word of god , if their meaning be of new articles of belief , 't is notoriously impertinent ; because to this no civil magistrate pretends ; but if their meaning be , that the magistrate has no authority to determine the particular circumstances of religion , that are left undetermined by the divine law , 't is then indeed to the purpose , but as notoriously false ; in that we are certainly bound to obey him in all things lawful , and every thing is so , that is not made unlawful by some prohibition ; for things become evil not upon the score of their being not commanded , but upon that of their being forbidden ; and what the scripture forbids not , it allows ; and what it allows , is not unlawful ; and what is not unlawful , may lawfully be done : and therefore it must needs be our duty to conform to all circumstances of worship , that are determined by lawful authority , if they are not antecedently forbidden by the law of god , though they are not commanded . things that are not determined remain indifferent ; what is indifferent is lawful , and what is lawful the magistrate may lawfully command ; and if it be sinful to obey him in these things , 't is so to obey him at all ; for all things are either lawful or unlawful : 't is a sin to obey him in things unlawful , and if it be so in things lawful too , then is all obedience sinful . § 6. fifthly , when they tell us , that the civil magistrate is indeed to see to the execution of the laws of christ , but to make none of his own : 't is a distinction without a difference ; for if he may provide for the execution of the laws of religion , then may he make laws that they shall be executed ; this being the most proper and effectual means to promote their execution : so that nothing can be more vain than to deny the civil magistrate a power of making laws in religion , and yet to allow him an authority to see the laws of religion executed ; because that is so apparently implyed in this , in that whoever has a power to see that laws be executed , cannot be without a power to command their execution : especially if we consider the particular nature of the laws of christ , that they have only determined the substance and morality of religious worship , and therefore must needs have left the ordering of its circumstances to the power and wisdom of lawful authority ; & whatever they determine about them , is but in order to the execution of the laws of god ; in that whatever they enjoyn cannot be put in practice , without being clothed with some particular circumstances , and reduced to some particular cases . thus when the holy apostle sets us down a general rule , that all things be done in order and decency , without determining what the things are that are conducive to it , the determination of this rule when 't is reduced to practice , must be entirely left to the government of the church , that must judge what things are decent and orderly ; and what laws it establishes in order to it , though they are but further pursuances of the apostolical precept , yet are they new and distinct commands by themselves , and injoyn something , that the scripture no where commands . so that the divine laws being general , and general laws not being to be put in execution , but in particular cases and instances , he that has authority to look to the execution of these general laws , must withal be vested with a power to determine with what particular instances , cases , and circumstances they shall be put in practice and execution . and here when they tell us , that it cannot stand with the love and wisdom of god , not to take order himself for all things that immediately concern his own worship and kingdom ; and that if iesus christ has not determined all particular rites and circumstances of religion , he has discharged his office with less wisdom and fidelity than moses ; who ordered every thing appertaining to the worship of god , even as far as the pins and nails of the tabernacle , with divers others the like idle and impertinent reasonings : one would think that men who argue at this rate , had already at least discovered in the holy scriptures a complete form of religious worship , as to all particular rites and ceremonies of an eternal , universal , and unchangeable obligation ; and therefore till they can believe this themselves , and prove it to others , instead of returning solemn answers to such baffled and intolerable impertinencies , i shall only advise them , to consider the unlucky consequents of their way of arguing , when instead of producing a particular form of publick worship , prescribed by god himself , they with their wonted modesty prove he ought to have done it ; and that unless he has done it , he has been defective in his care & providence over his church : for what can the issue of this be , but that god is chargeable with want of wisdom or goodness , or with some other defect , even by certain and infallible experience ? for , if he has not determined every particular circumstance of worship , then he must stand charged with all the absurdities , they object against their being left undetermined ; and therefore if no such prescribed form can be produced , ( as 't is infinitely certain none ever can ) then let them consider , what follows ▪ so unhappy a thing is it , when men will needs be disputing against experience ; whose evidence is so powerful and forcible upon the minds of men , that demonstration it self is not strong enough to cope with it : how much less the weak and puny arguments , wherewith these men assault it ? sect. 7. sixthly , there is no particular action but what is capable of a strange and unaccountable variety of circumstances , nor any part of outward worship but may be done after a thousand different modes and fashions ; in that as every action is clothed with natural and emergent circumstances , so is every circumstance with its circumstances , every one of which may be modified in sundry ways and manners . and therefore , in this infinite variety of things , the laws of god prescribe only the general lines of duty , and rarely descend to their particular determinations , but leave them to be determined by prudence and discretion , by choice , and custom , by laws , and prescriptions , and by all those ways by which humane affairs are governed and transacted . thus for example , the divine law has made charity a standing and eternal duty , but has left its particular way of expression undetermined , and uncommanded : and 't is indifferent whether it be done by building of colledges , or churches , or hospitals ; by repairing of bridges , or rivers , or high-ways ; by redeeming of slaves and prisoners ; by hospitality to the poor , or provision for orphans ; or by any other way of publick or private bounty : and when a man 's own thoughts have determined his own choice to one or more of these particulars , even that is vested with a strange number of accidents and circumstances , which must of necessity be left entirely to the conduct of his own reason and discretion . and the case is the same , as in all other duties of moral virtue ; so in that of religious gratitude , or divine worship , this duty it self is of a natural and essential necessity ; but yet may and must be performed with an unconceivable variety of dresses , customs and ways of expression , that are left utterly free and undetermined in scripture : any of which may be decently used , provided they do not make debasing representations of god , wherein consists the proper folly of idolatry and superstition . and all the advantages of order and solemnity , wherewith religion may be prudently adorned , are not only lawful , but decent , although they are not warranted by any precept in the word of god ; that neither has , nor indeed can determine all particular modes and circumstances of worship , they are so various , and so changeable . and men may , with as much reason , search the holy records for the methods of legal proceedings in our common law courts , as for particular rubricks and prescriptions of all outward forms and circumstances of publick worship : so that what these men demand is so unreasonable , that , considering the nature of things , 't is impossible . sect. 8. and this may suffice to demonstrate the unparallel'd follies and mischiefs of this principle . which being all i intend at present , i suppose it needless to engage in any further scholastick disputes , about the nature of indifferent actions , and some other less material controversies that depend upon this ; partly because this principle on which alone they stand , being removed , they become utterly groundless , and so by its confutation are sufficiently confuted ; and partly because all this has been so often , so fully , and so infinitely performed already . and of all the controversies that have ever been started in the world , it will be hard to find any that have been more fairly pursued and satisfactorily decided , than this of the church of england , against its puritan adversaries ; that has all along been nothing else but a dispute between rational learning , and unreasonable zeal . and it has been no less an unhappiness , than it was a condescension in the defenders of our church ; that they have been forced to waste their time and their parts , in baffling the idle cavils of a few hot-headed and brain-sick people . and there is scarce a greater instance of the unreasonableness of mankind , than these mens folly , in persisting so obstinately in their old and pitiful clamours , after they have been so convincingly answered , and so demonstratively confuted . and indeed how is it possible to satisfie such unreasonable men , when their greatest exception against the constitutions of the church has ever been no other than , that they were the churches constitutions ? insomuch , that if authority should think good out of compliance with their cross demands , to command what they now think necessary , that must then , according to their principles , become unlawful : because ( forsooth ) where they take away the liberty of an action , they destroy its lawfulness . now what possibly could have betrayed men into so absurd a perswasion , but a stubborn resolution to be refractory to all authority , and to be subject to nothing but their own insolent humours ? and as long as they lie under the power of this perswasion , that they are obliged in conscience to act contrary to whatever their superiours command them in the worship of god , the magistrate has no other way left to decoy them into obedience , but by forbidding what he would have them do , and commanding what he would have them forbear ; and then if he will accept to be obeyed by disobedience , he shall find them ( good men ) the most obedient subjects in the world . sect. 9. but to return to what i was saying , instead of troubling my self with any further confutation of so baffled a cause , i shall rather chuse to do it more briefly , and yet perhaps more effectually , by uybraiding them with their shameful overthrows , and daring them but to look those enemies in the face , that have so lamentably cowed them by so many absolute triumphs and victories : and , not to mention divers other learned and excellent persons , i shall only single out that famous champion of our church , mr. hooker ; upon him let them try their courage ( though by so safe a challenge i do but give proof of my own cowardise . ) how long has his incomparable book of ecclesiastical polity bid shameful defiance to the whole party , and yet never found any so hardy as to venture upon an encounter ? now this author being confessedly a person of so much learning , candour , judgment , and ingenuity , and withal so highly prized , and insisted upon by the regular and obedient sons of the church , that they have in a manner cast the issue of the whole cause upon his performance : what is the reason he was never vouchsafed so much as the attempt of a just reply ? 't is apparent enough both by their writings , and their actions , that they have not wanted zeal ; and therefore that he has escaped so long free from all contradiction , 't is not for want of good will , but ability ; not because they would not , but because they were convinced they could not confute him . so that the book it self is as full and demonstrative a confutation of their cause , as the matters contained in it ; i. e. 't is unanswerable , ( and i know nothing can do it more effectually , unless perhaps a reply to it ) and shall live an eternal shame and reproach to their cause , when that is dead ; and would probably have been buried in utter forgetfulness , were it not for this trophy of success against them : and therefore , until they can at least pretend to have returned some satisfactory answer to that discourse , they prove nothing but their own impudence ; whilst they continually pelt us with their pamphlets , and such little exceptions , that have been so long since so shamefully and demonstratively baffled . sect. 10. and whereas they are wont , in order to the making their principles look more plausibly , to stuff their discourses with frequent and tragical declamations against popery , will-worship , superstition , &c. i cannot perswade my self , 't is worth the labour to wipe off such idle reproaches , by solemnly discoursing these matters ; both because this has been so frequently and fully performed already , and because , though these outcries have been made use of to affright silly people ; yet few , if any of their ring-leaders are still so fond either to own this charge against us , or to plead it in their own justification . only i cannot but observe of all these and the like pretences , that we need not any stronger arguments against themselves , than their own objections against us . for if in this case there be any superstition , 't is they that are guilty of it : for this vice consists not so much in the nature of things , as in the apprehensions of men , when their minds are possessed with weak and unworthy conceits of god. now he that conforms to the received customs and ceremonies of a church , does it not so much upon the account of any intrinsick value of the things themselves , as out of a sense of the necessity of order , and of the duty of obedience : whereas he that scrupulously refuses to use and practise them , takes a wrong estimate of the divine wisdom and goodness , and imagines that god judges his creatures by nice and pettish laws , and lays a greater stress upon a doubtful or indifferent ceremony , than upon the great duty of obedience , and the peace and tranquillity of the church . so that the principles upon which we proceed , are no other , than , that , as the divine law has prescribed the substantial duties of religion ; so it has left its modes and circumstances undetermined : but because every action must be done some way or other , and be vested with some circumstances or other ; and because the generality of men are not so apt to be abused with fantastick and ridiculous conceits in any thing , as in matters of religion ; therefore we think it necessary , for the prevention of all the follies & indecencies , that ignorance and superstitious zeal would introduce into the worship of god , that the publick laws should determine some circumstances of order and decency ; which have at least this advantage , that they provide against the mischiefs of disorder and confusion : and therefore we place no antecedent necessity in any of the particular rites and ceremonies of our church , but only think it highly convenient , if not absolutely necessary , that some be prescribed ; that there is an handsomness and beauty in these that are prescribed : and therefore , because 't is necessary that some be determined , and because these are , rather than divers others , already settled , we think they have an indispensable necessity superinduced upon them , consequent to the determinations of authority . no man affirms , that we cannot serve god acceptably without a surplice ; but yet , because 't is but requisite that publick worship should be performed with beauty and solemnity ; and because the use of this vestment is but handsom and beautiful , and prevents slovenliness and indecency , 't is but agreeable that it should be injoin'd , as any other decent habit might have been : and when this is singled out by authority , it then becomes consequentially necessary : whereas those , who forbid things indifferent as sinful , and lay obligations upon mens consciences , to abstain from what is innocent , and make that necessary not to be done , which god has left at liberty , and made lawful to be done ; usurp upon mens consciences , by imposing fetters on them , where god has left them free , and become guilty of the most palpable piece of superstition , by teaching their own prohibitions for doctrines ; and so making it a necessary duty , and part of divine worship , to abstain from what god has no where forbidden ; and making it a mortal and damnable sin , to do what is innocent ; and supposing that god will , or at least justly may , inflict eternal torments upon men , for making their addresses to him , rather in a cleanly white vestment , than in a taylors cloak , or perhaps in mechanical querpo . sect. ii. and then as for their out-cry against will-worship , 't is the very same with that against superstition ; for 't is one sort of it , and is criminal no farther than 't is superstitious . now when they exclaim against superstition , they mean only that part of it that consists in will-worship , and when against will-worship , 't is only as 't is a branch of superstition : so that these two impertinent clamours signifie but the same thing under different denominations , and so amount but to one . but however this is 't is certain , that will-worship consists in nothing else than in mens making their own fancies and inventions necessary parts of religion , whereby they make that requisite to procure the divine acceptance , that god has no where required ; and 't is the same thing whether this be done by injunctions or prohibitions : and they that affirm the doing or not doing of an action which god has no where either commanded or forbidden to be necessary duties , are equally guilty of this crime : and therefore if these men make it necessary to forbear what god has no where forbidden , they teach their own fancies for doctrines , and impose something as a part of the service of god , on their own , and other mens consciences , that the law of god has not imposed ; and withal so unworthily mis-represent the divine wisdom and goodness , as to labour to make the world believe , that god has such an abhorrency to a thing so innocent as a white garment , that , to worship him in it , is sufficient to bring us under his everlasting wrath and displeasure ; for every thing that is sinful , is as well in their , as our , esteem mortal & damnable . but then , as for our own parts , they cannot be more apparently guilty of this piece of folly , then we are clear and innocent from its very suspicion ; because all rituals , and ceremonies , and postures , and manners of performing the outward expressions of devotion , are not in their own nature capable of being parts of religion ; and therefore unless we used and imposed them as such , 't is lamentably precarious to charge the determination of them with will-worship ; because that consists in making those things parts of religion , that god has not made so . so that when the church expresly declares against this use of them , and only injoins them as meer circumstances of religious worship , 't is apparent that it cannot by imposing them , make any additions to the worship of god , but only provides , that what god has required , be performed in a decent and orderly manner . sect. 12. and then as for christian liberty , why should we suffer them so far to invade ours , as to renounce those things as criminal , which we believe to be innocent ? and if things indifferent when injoin'd lose not only their liberty , but their lawfulness ; then why not when forbidden , and that by an incompetent authority ? when our superiours impose rules of decency , and law of discipline , they do not infringe our christian liberty ; because they do not abolish the indifferency of things themselves , wherein alone it consisteth : and though they become thereby necessary duties , 't is not from the nature and necessity of the thing it self , but from the obligations of obedience , or some emergent reasons of order and decency : whereas nothing can be more plain , than that these men do not only abridge our liberty , but also lay insolent confinements upon the supreme power , by making things indifferent so absolutely unlawful , that they will not allow the just commands of lawful authority sufficient to make them cease to be sinful . how oft , and how plainly have they been told , that , when authority injoins things left indifferent , and undetermined by the word of god , 't is so far from incroaching upon our christian liberty , that it rather confirms it ? in that this supposes that the things themselves may , or may not be either done or enjoined , according to the dictates of prudence and discretion ; but when they are once determined by publick laws , though the matter of the law be indifferent , yet obedience to it is not . whereas when they will not permit their governours to injoin these things , and if they do , will not obey their injunctions , do they not apparently intrench upon our liberty , by making what christ has left indifferent , necessary ; and , under pretences of asserting their christian liberty , take upon them to confine the rights of authority ? but to all this , as evident as it is , nothing can make them attend ; but they still deafly proceed in their old clamours : which is too clear an argument , that 't is not reason that dictates their exceptions , but humour , prejudice , and peevishness . sect. 13. and then as for their declamations against adding to the law of god , to be short , i appeal to the reason of all mankind , whether any men in the world are more notoriously guilty of unwarrantable additions than these , who forbid those things as sinful , and consequently under pain of damnation , which the law of god has no where forbidden ? what is it to teach the commandments of men for doctrines , but to teach those things to be the law of god that are not so ? and , what can more charge the divine law of imperfection , than to teach that a man may perform all that it has commanded , and yet perish for not doing something , that it has not commanded ? and so do they , who make it necessary not to do something that god has left indifferent . whereas nothing can be more unreasonable than to tax the church of making additions to the law of god , because all her laws are imposed , not as laws of god , but as laws of men , and so are not more liable to this charge than iustinian's institutes , and littleton's tenures . and then in the last place , as for their noise against popery , ( a term , that , as well as some other angry words , signifies any thing that some men dislike ) i shall say no more , than , that we have most reason to raise this out-cry , when they take upon themselves ( as well as the old gentleman at rome ) to controul the laws of the secular powers . and what do they , but set up a pope in every mans conscience , whilst they vest it with a power of countermanding the decrees of princes ? these things cannot but appear with an undeniable evidence to any man , that is not invincibly either ignorant , or wilful , or both : and therefore 't is time they should , at least for shame , if they will not for conscience , cease to disturb the church with clamour , and exceptions so miserably impertinent , that i blush for having thus far pursued them with a serious confutation . and therefore leaving them and their impertinencies together , ( for i despair of ever seeing these old and dear acquaintances parted ) i shall now address my self to clear off one more material and more plausible objection , and so conclude this particular . and 't is this . sect. 14. 't is possible , the magistrate may be deceived in his determinations , and establish a worship that is in its own nature sinful and superstitious ; in which case ( if what i contend for be true ) all his subjects must either be rebels , or idolaters : if they obey , they sin against god ; if they disobey , they sin against their sovereign . this is the last issue of all that is objected in this controversie , and the only argument that gives gloss and colour to all their other trifling pretences : and yet 't is no more than what may be as fairly objected against all government of moral and political affairs ; for there 't is as possible , that the supreme power may be mistaken in its judgment of good and evil ; and yet no man will deny the civil power of princes , because they are fallible , and may perhaps abuse it . and yet in this alone lies all the strength of this objection against their ecclesiastical jurisdiction , because forsooth , 't is possible they may erre , and manage it to evil purposes . but whatever force it carries in it , it rather strikes at the divine providence , than my assertion , and charges that of being defective in making sufficient provisions for the due government of mankind , in that it has not set over us infallible judges and governours : for unless all magistrates be guided by an unerring spirit , 't is possible they may act against the ends of their institution ; and if this be a sufficient objection against their authority , it must of necessity overthrow the power of all fallible judicatures , and make governours as incompetent judges in matters of morality and controversies of right and wrong , as in articles of faith and religion . and therefore our enquiry is , to find out the best way of setling the world , that the state of things is capable of : if indeed mankind were infallible , this controversie were at an end ; but seeing that all men are liable to errors and mistakes , and seeing there is an absolute necessity of a supreme power in all publick affairs , our question ( i say ) is , what is the most prudent , and expedient way of setling them ; not that possibly might be , but that really is ? and this ( as i have already sufficiently proved ) is , to devolve their management on the supreme civil power ; which though it may be imperfect and liable to errors and mistakes , yet 't is the least so , and is a much better way to attain publick peace and tranquillity , than if they were entirely left to the ignorance and folly of every private man , which must of necessity be pregnant with all manner of mischiefs and confusions . so that this method , i have assign'd , being comparatively the best way of government of all ecclesiastical , as well as civil affairs , is not to be rejected , because 't is liable to some inconveniences ; but rather to be embraced above all others , because 't is liable to incomparably the fewest . and if it so happen , that some private persons suffer wrong from this method of proceeding , yet this private injury has an ample compensation from the publick benefit that arises from it ; and when it so falls out that either the whole society , or one individual must suffer , 't is easie to determine , that better one honest man perish , than a million . the inconveniences of a bad government are inconsiderable , in comparison to anarchy and confusion ; and the evils , that fall upon particular men from its unskilful or irregular administration , are vastly too little to weigh against the necessity of its institution . sect. 15. and upon this principle stands the necessity of subjection and obedience to all authority , in that , though its ill management may happen to bring many and great inconveniences upon the publick ; yet they cannot equal the mischiefs of that confusion which must necessarily arise , if subjects are warranted to disobey , or resist government , whenever they shall apprehend 't is ill administred . perhaps never any government was so good , as to be administred with exact justice and equity , nor any governour so wise , as not to be chargeable with faults and miscarriages ; and therefore if upon every quarrel every wise or honest man can pick against the laws of the common-wealth , he may lawfully withdraw his obedience , what can follow but a certain and unavoidable dissolution of government , when every man will be commanded by nothing , but his own perswasions , that is himself ? and upon this account 't is that the law of god has tied upon us such an absolute and indispensable subjection to authority , which though it may be mischievous , yet 't is less so than disobedience : and the world must be govern'd , as it can be , by men , and not as it might be , by angels . the management indeed of humane affairs is generally bad enough , but 't is as well as can probably be expected , if we consider the weaknesses and imperfections of humane nature : and therefore we must bear it as well as we can : because if we go about to alter any present setlement , we must almost of necessity make it worse : and all the effects of such attempts have seldom ended in any thing else but perpetual confusions , till things have at length resetled in the same , or as bad , ( if not a worse ) condition than they were in before . the miseries of tyranny are less , than those of anarchy ; and therefore 't is better to submit to the unreasonable impositions of nero , or caligula , than to hazard the dissolution of the state , and consequently all the calamities of war and confusion , by denying our subjection to tyrants . and there never was any lawful magistrate so bad , whose laws and government were not more conducive to the preservation of the common good , than his oppression was to subvert it : and 't is wisely eligible to suffer a less evil , rather than lose a greater good . 't is a known , and a wise saying of tacitus ; bonos principes voto expetere debemus , qualescunque pati ; & quomodo sterilitatem , aut nimios imbres , & caetera naturae mala , sic luxum & avaritiam dominantium tolerare . and this , in one word , is not only a satisfactory answer , but an ample confutation of that pestilent book , ( vindiciae contra tyrannos ) the scope whereof is , only to invite subjects to rebel against tyrannical government , by representing the evils of tyranny : which though they were as great , as he supposes them to be ; yet they are abundantly less than those that follow upon rebellion , as himself and his party were sufficiently taught by the event . and for one common-wealth , he can instance in , that has gain'd by rebellion ; 't is easie to produce an hundred that it has hazarded , if not utterly ruined . and therefore this author ( not to mention mariana , and buchanan , and others ) has perform'd nothing in behalf of his cause , by displaying the miseries of a tyrannical power , unless he had withal evinced them to be more calamitous than those of war and confusion . there is nothing in this world , that depends upon the freedom of man's will , can be so securely establish'd , as not to be liable to sad inconveniences ; and therefore that constitution of affairs is most eligible , that is liable to the fewest . and upon this score , i say , it is that the divine law has so severely injoin'd us to submit to the worst of governours ; because notwithstanding that tyranny is an oppressing burden of humane life , yet 't is less intolerable than a state of war and confusion . sect. 16. but to speak more expresly to the particular matter in debate , 't is necessary the world must be govern'd ; govern'd it cannot be without religion , & religion , as harmless and peaceable as it is in it self , yet when mixt with the follies and passions of men , it does not usually inspire them with overmuch gentleness and goodness of nature ; and therefore 't is necessary that it submit to the same authority , that commands over all the other affections of the mind of man. and we may as well suppose all men just and honest , and upon that account cancel all the laws of equity , as suppose them wise and sober in their religious conceits , and upon that score take off all restraints from the excesses and enormities of zeal . 't is therefore as necessary to the preservation of publick peace , that men should be govern'd in matters of religion , as in all other common affairs of humane life . and as for all the inconveniences that may follow from it , they are no other , than what belong to all manner of government , and such as are , and must be , unavoidable as long as mankind is endued with liberty of will ; for so long he cannot be intrusted with any power , how good soever , that he may not abuse . and therefore for men to go about to abrogate the ecclesiastical iurisdiction of the civil magistrate , because he may abuse it to evil and irreligious ends , by establishing idolatry , instead of the true worship of god ; ( in which case 't is pity that good men should be exposed to ruine , only for preserving a good conscience ) 't is just as reasonable as if they should cashier all manner of government , and set men free from all oaths and obligations of allegiance ; because 't is possible some usurper may gain the supreme power , and then force his subjects to abjure all their former oaths to their lawful sovereign ; and 't is pity that men of the gallantest , and most honest principles , should be fined , decimated , hanged , banish'd , and murdered only for their loyalty to their prince . and thus will the parallel run equal in all cases between the civil and ecclesiastical authority of the supreme powers : both may be , and often are lamentably abused ; and therefore if that be reason enough to abolish one , 't is so to abolish both : so that the whole result of all amounts only to this enquiry , whether it would not be a politick course to take away all government , because all government may be abused ? sect. 17. though this be a sufficient reply to the objection , yet it will not be altogether impertinent or unnecessary to abet it with this one consideration more . that it may , and often does so happen , that 't is necessary to punish men for such perswasions into which they have perhaps innocently abused themselves : for 't is easily possible for well-meaning people through ignorance and inadvertency to be betrayed into such unhappy errors , as may tend to the publick disturbance , which though it be not so much their crime as infelicity , yet is there no remedy but it must expose them to the correction of the publick rods and axes . magistrates are to take care of the common-wealth , and not of every particular mans concerns : and the end of all their laws is to provide for the welfare of the publick , that is their charge , and that they must secure ; and if any harmless and well-meaning man make himself obnoxious to the penalties of the law , that is a misfortune they cannot prevent , and therefore must deal with him , as they do with all other offenders ; that is , pity , and punish him . private interest must yield to publick good , and therefore , when they cannot stand together , and there is no remedy but one must suffer , 't is better certainly that one , or a few , should perish than the whole community . neither is it possible that any laws should be so warily contrived , but that some innocent persons may sometimes fall under their penalties ; yet , because 't is more beneficial to the publick welfare , that now and then a guiltless person should suffer , than that all the guilty should escape ; in that the former injures but one , the latter all : therefore is it necessary to govern all societies by laws , and penalties , without regard to the ill fortune that may befal a few single persons , which can hardly be avoided whilst the laws are in force : and yet 't is necessary that either the same , or some other in their stead be establish'd , that will be liable to the same inconvenience . besides , 't is not unworthy observation , that it is not so properly the end of government to punish enormities , as to prevent disturbances ; and when they bring malefactors to justice ( as we term it ) they do not so much inflict a punishment upon the crime , ( for that belongs peculiarly to the cognizance of another tribunal ) as provide for the welfare of the common-wealth , by cutting off such persons as are pests and enemies to it , and by the example of their punishment deter others from the like practices . and therefore there are some sins , of which governours take not so much notice , that are more hainous in themselves , and in the sight of god , than others that they punish with capital inflictions ; because they are not in their own nature so destructive of the ends of government , and the good of publick societies . so that actions being punishable by humane laws , not according to the nature of the crime , but of their ill consequence to the publick , when any thing that is otherwise even innocent , is in this regard injurious , it as much concerns authority to give it check by severity of laws and punishments , as any the foulest immoralities . temporal punishments then are inflicted upon such persons that are turbulent against prescribed rules of publick worship , upon the same account , as they are against those that offend against all other publick edicts of government : they are both equally intended , to secure the publick peace and interest of the society ; and when either of them are violated , they equally tend to its disturbance : and therefore as mens actings against the civil laws of a common-wealth are obnoxious to the judgment of its governours , for the same reason are all their offences against its ecclesiastical laws liable to the censure of the same authority . so that the matter debated , in its last result , is not so much a question of religion , as of policy ; not so much of what is necessary to faith , as to the quiet and preservation of a common-wealth ; and 't is possible a man may be a good christian , and yet his opinion be intolerable , upon the score of its being inconsistent with the preservation of the publick peace , and the necessary ends of government . for 't is easily imaginable how an honest and well-meaning man may , through meer ignorance , fall into such errours , which though god will pardon , yet governours must punish : his integrity may expiate the crime , but cannot prevent the mischief of his errour . nay so easie is it for men to deserve to be punished for their consciences , that there is no nation in the world , in which ( were government rightly understood and duly managed ) mistakes and abuses of religion would not supply the gallies with vastly greater numbers than villany . chap. vii . of the nature and obligations of scandal , and of the absurdity of pretending it , against the commands of lawful authority . the contents . the leaders of the separation being asham'd of the silliness of the principle , with which they abuse the people , think to shelter themselves , by flying to the pretence of scandal . scandal is any thing that occasions the sin of another , and is not in it self determinately good or evil. all scandal is equally taken , but not equally criminal . men are to govern themselves , in this affair , by their own prudence and discretion . of st. paul's contrary behaviour towards the iews , and gentiles , to avoid their contrary scandal . the reason of the seeming contradiction , in this point , between his epistles to the romans , and galatians . the proper obligations of scandal are extended only to indifferent things . the cases , in which it is concern'd , are not capable of being determined by setled laws and constitutions . how scandalously these men prevaricate with the world in their pretence of scandal , that may excuse their refusal of conformity , but gives no account of their separation . of their scrupling to renounce the covenant , this is no reason to drive them from divine service into conventicles . how shamefully these men juggle with the world , and impose upon their followers . if they would but perswade their proselytes to be of their own minds , it would end all our differences . they first lead the people into the scandal , and then make this the formal reason why they must follow them . if the peoples scruples are groundless , then to comply with them , is to keep them in a sinful disobedience . a further account of their shameful prevarication . the ridiculousness of the peoples pretending it concerning themselves , that they are scandalized . by their avoiding private offences , they run into publick scandals . they scandalize their own weak brethren most of all , by complying with them . old and inveterate scandals are not to be complyed with , but opposed : and such are those of the non-conformists . the commands of authority and the obligations of obedience infinitely outweigh , and utterly evacuate all the pretences of scandal . sect. 1. though the former principle , viz. that no man may with a safe conscience do any thing in the worship of god , that is not warranted by some precept or precedent in the word of god , be riveted into the peoples minds , as the first and fundamental principle of the puritan separation ; yet their leaders seem to be ashamed of their own folly : and being driven from this , and all their other little holds and shelters , they have at length thought it the safest and the wisest course to flie to the pretence of scandal . this is their fort royal , in which they have at last secured and entrench'd themselves . as for their own parts ( they tell us ) they are not so fond as to believe , that the ceremonies of the church of england are so superstitious , and antichristian , and that themselves might lawfully use them , were it not that there are great numbers of sincere , but weak christians that apprehend them to be sinful ; and for this reason they dare not conform to our ceremonial constitutions , for fear of ensnaring and scandalizing weak consciences ; which is , in the apostles account of it , no less than spiritual murther . and whatever is due to authority , the souls of men are too high a tribute . none can be more ready , than themselves , to submit to all lawful commands ; but here they desire to be excused , when they cannot obey but at the price of souls . 't is a dreadful doom , that our saviour has denounced against those , who offend any of his little ones , i. e. babes and weaklings in christianity : and therefore , though they would not stick to hazard their own lives in obedience to authority , yet nothing can oblige them to be so cruel , and so uncharitable , as to destroy any for whom christ died ; which is certainly done by casting snares and scandals before their weak brethren . this is the last refuge of the leaders of the separation , and therefore i cannot but think my self obliged to examine its strength and reasonableness ; and i doubt not , but to make it appear as vain and frivolous , as all their other cavils , and shuffling pretences . sect. 2. scandal then is a word of a large and ambiguous signification , and the thing it imports is not determinately either good or evil , but is sometimes innocent , and sometimes criminal , according to the different nature of those things from whence it arises , or of those circumstances wherewith it is attended ; for in the full and proper extent of the word , 't is any thing ( whether good , or evil , or indifferent ) that occasions the fall or sin of another . now if the matter of the scandal , or that which occasions anothers sin , be in it self good and vertuous , this casual event is not sufficient to reflect any charge or disparagement upon it ; and therefore 't is in scripture frequently attributed to the best of things , to the cross of christ , to christ himself , and to the grace of god. if it be a thing in it self criminal , though it be chiefly blameable upon its own account , yet this usually aggravates and enhances the original guilt of the action . but lastly , if it be a thing indifferent , and a matter of christian liberty , then is it either faultless , or chargeable , according to its different cases and circumstances , as christian prudence and discretion shall determine , so various and contingent a thing not being capable to be govern'd by any fix'd and setled measures . some are scandalized out of weakness , and some out of peevishness ; some before due information of their mistake , and some after it ; some because they do not , and some because they will not understand . all which , with infinite other circumstances , men ought to consider in the exercise of their christian liberty , and suitably to guide themselves by the same rules of wisdom and charity , that determine them in all the other affairs of humane life . for the action it self is only the remote occasion , and not the immediate cause of the scandal ; in that , being in its own nature indifferent , and by consequence innocent , it cannot be directly and from it self productive of any criminal effect : and therefore , its being abused and perverted to purposes and opportunities of sin , is purely accidental . and the proper and immediate cause of every mans falling , is something within himself : 't is either folly , or malice , or ignorance , or wilfulness , too little understanding , or too much passion , that betray some men into sin by occasion of other mens actions . so that the schools distinction of scandal into passive or that which is taken , and active or that which is given , is apparently false and impertinent , and is the main thing that has perplexed and intricated all discourses of this article : because scandal , properly so called , is never given , but when it is taken ; as being only an occasion of offence taken by one manfrom the actions of another . now if his taking offence , where it was not given , proceeds from weakness and ignorance , then is his case pitiable , and a good-natur'd man will out of tenderness and charity forbear such things , as he seizes on to abuse to his own destruction : for all the obligations of scandal proceed purely from that extraordinary height of charity and tenderness of good nature , that is so signally recommended in the gospel ; which will oblige us to forbear any action that we may lawfully omit , when we know it will prove an occasion of sin and mischief to some well-meaning , but less knowing christians . but if it proceed from humour , or pride , or wilfulness , or any other vicious principle , then is the man to be treated as a peevish and stubborn person ; and no man is bound to part with his own freedom , because his neighbour is froward and humorous : and if he be resolved to fall , there is no reason i should forego the use of my liberty , because he is resolved to make that his stumbling-block . so that we see all scandal is equally taken , but not equally criminal : in that , some take it only because they are weak , and some because they are peevish ; according to which different cases we are to behave our selves , with a different demeanour in this affair . § 3. and for this we have variety of examples in the practice of the apostles , whose actions were liable to the opposite scandals of jews and gentiles . if they complyed with the jews in their rigorous observation of the mosaick rites , this was a scandal to the gentiles , by leading them into a false and mischievous opinion of their necessity : if they did not comply , then that proved a scandal to those iews , that were not as yet fully instructed in the right nature , and extent of their christian liberty , and the dissolution of the mosaick law ; and so would be tempted to fall back from that religion , that inclin'd men to a scorn and contempt of the law of moses . now between these two extremes they were forced to walk with great prudence and wariness , inclining sometimes to one , and sometimes to the other ; as they apprehended most beneficial to the ends & interests of christianity . thus though st. paul condescended to the circumcision of timothy , to humour and gratifie the jews , who could not be so suddenly wrought off from the prejudices , and strong impressions of their education , and therefore were for a time indulged to the practice of their ancient rites and customs ; yet , when he was among the gentiles , he would not be perswaded to yield so far to the jewish obstinacy , as to suffer the circumcision of titus , but opposed it with his utmost zeal and vehemence ; because this would in probability have frustrated the success of all his labour in propagating the gospel among forein nations ; if he who had before so vehemently asserted their christian liberty , and instructed them in their freedom from the mosaick law , and particularly , from this ceremony , should now seem inconsistent with himself , by acting directly contrary to his former doctrine , and bringing men into a subjection to the law of moses , after himself had so often declared its being revers'd and superannuated . for what else could be probably expected , than that his gentile proselytes being discouraged , partly by his prevarication , and partly by the weight of that noke , to which they foresaw , or at least suspected , they must submit , should be strongly tempted to an utter apostacy ? and therefore , wisely weighing with himself , that the scandal was less dangerous in angring the jews , than in hazarding the gentiles , he chose rather to leave them to their own peevishness , than to hazard the revolt of these , gal. 2. 4 , 5. § 4. and this is the true reason ( as some learned men have observed ) of this great apostles different deportment , in this particular , towards the churches of rome and galatia ; because in the roman church there lived no small number of natural jews , who , when they were first converted to christianity , were not so well instructed in the abrogation of the mosaick law. the method , whereby the apostles invited them at first to embrace the christian faith , was barely to convince them of its evidence and divine authority ; without taking any notice , whether their old religion were thereby abrogated , or continued : for had they at the first attempt dealt roundly with them in that particular , that had been so far from winning their assent , that it had been absolutely the most effectual way to affright them from the gospel . and from hence it came to pass , that there were dispersed among them so many judaizing christians , who , though they were sufficiently instructed in the positive articles of the christian faith ; yet not being so throughly informed as to the superannuating of those legal observances , they were as firmly wedded to them , as if they had still continued in the jewish religion : therefore does the apostle advise , that these weak and uninstructed converts should be tenderly treated ; and exhorts the more knowing christians , for a while , to comply with their weakness and simplicity ; till time , and better information should wear off their old prejudices , and at length bring them to a better understanding of their own liberty . but then , as for the galatians , when they hapned to fall into the same error , he thought not fit to treat them with the same tenderness and civility : but rather chides and lashes them out of their childish folly ; because ( as st. chrysostome observes ) at their first conversion they had been competently instructed in the extent of their christian liberty , and had already disclaimed all their jewish perswasions ; and therefore , for them to relapse into the errours of iudaism , could not proceed from weakness , and want of instruction , but from lightness and giddiness of mind : a vanity that deserved to be upbraided with as much briskness and vehemence of satyr , as st. paul has us'd in that epistle . and upon this account arose the quarrel between him and st. peter , in that st. peter had not carried himself so prudently in the use of his christian liberty , as he might have done ; their controversie was not about an article of faith , or a prescribed duty of religion , but purely about an occasional and changeable matter of prudence . but to pass by this , and divers other particular cases , to the same purpose , in the writings of st. paul , whose practice in this affair is the best comment upon his doctrine : the result of what i have discoursed from him evidently amounts to these two consequences , ( 1. ) that the proper obligations of scandal are extended only to matters of an indifferent and arbitrary nature . those things that are absolutely necessary , we are bound to do , whether they offend any man or no ; and those that are absolutely unlawful , we are bound to forbear , upon the score of stronger obligations than those of scandal : and therefore its proper scene must lie in things that are not determinately good or evil . ( 2. ) that the cases , in which it is concern'd , are not capable of being determin'd by any unalterable laws and constitutions ; and that we have no other rules for the government of our actions in reference to it , but those of common prudence and discretion . and now , from this more general account may we proceed , with more clearness and security , to some more close and particular considerations , that immediately relate to this affair , as 't is pleaded by some men in justification of their present schism . § 5. first , and here in the first place let me desire them , to consider how manifestly & scandalously they prevaricate with the world , in their management of this apology , in that the pretence is too narrow a covering for their practices . for however it may serve to excuse their refusal of conformity in the exercise of their publick and ministerial function , which they must renounce , though to the ruine of their families , to please the brethren ; yet how will this account for all the other disorders and irregularities of their separations ? what has this to do with their private meetings and conventicles , against the commands of publick authority ? they plead it only to justifie themselves in laying down their ministry , and not to keep them from being present at our assemblies in a private capacity : ( as they sometimes are . ) why therefore should they keep up such an apparent separation , by gathering people into distinct meetings of their own , when they might without any criminal scandal to their brethren , or violence to their own consciences , be constant at our congregations ? when themselves were ( or at least thought they were ) in power , they did not think so slightly of unnecessary separations , but provided against their very appearances and possibilities : why therefore should they now make so light of exposing the church to all the distempers that naturally follow , upon making parties and divisions ? if there were nothing but scandal in the case , they would live quietly and conformably in a private condition , though this might possibly restrain them from doing so in a publick office. and one would think that such nice and tender-natur'd people , that will undo themselves to please their neighbours , should be wonderfully tender of giving needless offence to their governours . and , whatever other pretences they make to excuse their non-conformity , nothing can justifie their separation , but the unlawfulness of being present at our congregations . for what , if they scruple to renounce the covenant ; is this any reason , why they should gather people into conventicles , keep their private meetings in time of publick service , affront the laws and constitutions of the common-wealth , and encourage their followers in a down-right schism and separation ? it would be a pretty way of arguing , to hear one of them plead : i cannot renounce the covenant , therefore i must keep a conventicle ; and yet this is their method of acting . and therefore they can never clear themselves of some odd suspicions , unless they would frankly and openly declare their opinion of our service : if they think it unlawful , then let them own , and profess , and plead it ; if lawful , then let them justifie themselves , in that , when lawful authority requires them , and the people , to keep up a just and lawful communion with the church , yet they should notwithstanding keep up so wide a schism , by gathering people out of publick congregations into private meetings . and could their credulous disciples be but made sensible , how coarsly they are impos'd upon by their leaders , and how lamentably they juggle and dissemble with the world , they would then more abhor them for their hypocrisie , than they now admire them for their saint-like and demure pretences . for if they would perswade them to do what themselves would not scruple in their circumstances , ( i. e. to be of their own mind ) this schism would quickly be ended , and the church setled . the only reason ( say most of them ) why they forsook their ministry was , that they durst not abjure the covenant ; dispense with them for this , and they are conformists . but if that be the only thing they scruple , then , why are they not regular and conformable in all other particulars , against which they can pretend no such exceptions ? and what does renouncing the covenant concern the people ? and therefore how shall that excuse , or justifie them in their separation ? this thing has no relation to the divine service , and therefore , however it may restrain men from something else , 't is no motive to drive them from that . now what can be more apparent , than that these men are resolved to comply with , and encourage , the people in a wicked and rebellious schism ( for so it must be , if it be groundless and unwarrantable ) by herding them into conventicles for their own private ends , and that in spight of authority ? whereas had they any true sense of conscience and ingenuity , they would labor to dispossess the people of their mistakes , and to reconcile them to a fair and candid opinion of the church , when she requires nothing of them , but what they themselves are convinced in conscience , is lawful and innocent . for , if they valued the peace of the church , the commands of authority , and the setlement of the nation before their own selfish ends , instead of keeping up divisions ( as 't is evident they do by their conventicles ) they would be as zealous , as he that is most so , to remove the grounds of schism and faction , and to reunite their party to the church , by perswading them to an orderly and peaceable conformity . which if it be innocent ( as themselves believe it is ) it must , in the present circumstances of affairs , be necessary ; if it be any mans duty to be peaceable in the church , and obedient to lawful authority . sect. 6. secondly , how came the people to be scandalized ? by whom were they betrayed , and affrighted into their mistakes ? who buzzed their scruples , and jealousies into their heads ? and , who taught them to call our ceremonies , popish , superstitious , and antichristian ? what other inducement have they to dislike the churches constitutions , but meerly the example of their leaders ? their practice is the only foundation of the peoples opinion ; and when their flocks straggle from our churches , 't is only to follow their pastors : they first lead the people into an errour , and then this must be an apology for themselves to follow them . and thus , whilst they dance in a circle , 't is no wonder , if at the same time , their preachers follow their people , and the people follow their preachers . and therefore if the godly ministers , who dare not conform for fear of scandalizing the weak brethren , would but venture to do it , the weak brethren would cease to be scandalized . so that these men first lay the stumbling-block in the peoples way , and then , because it scares silly and timorous souls , this serves for a pretence to startle , & be astonish'd at it themselves , and withal to increase the childish fears of the multitude by their own seeming & counterfeit horror . now with what a shameless brow do these men prevaricate with publick authority ? they have deceived the people into a publick errour , and then will not undeceive them for fear of their displeasure : and when they have possess'd their minds with unworthy scruples , and jealousies against the commands of their superiors , then must this weakness of the people be made the formal excuse of their own disobedience . and by this artifice they prostitute the reverence of all government to the fortuitous humor and peevishness of their own disciples ; and so by making the publick laws submit to the pleasure of those whom they govern , they put it in their own power to enact , or repeal them as they please ; and no law shall have any force to bind the subject without their approbation : because 't is in their own power , when they please , to work prejudices , in the people against it ; and therefore , if their being offended be sufficient to take off their obligation , 't is , or 't is not a law , only as themselves shall think good . and thus they first govern the common people , & then sooth and flatter their pride , by inveigling them into a conceit , that they are govern'd by them , and by this stratagem they govern all . but however , from whomsoever these good people learn'd their idle & imaginary scruples , the offence they have taken against the customs and prescriptions of the church , is either just and reasonable , or it is not : if the former , then they have rational grounds for their dislike & separation ; and if they have , then these men that think themselves bound to comply with them , even against the commands of authority , ought to plead those reasons , and not meerly scandal , to justifie their disobedience ; because they must carry in them an obligation antecedent to that of scandal ; in that they are supposed sufficient to warrant and patronize it ; and therefore 't is not that , but the grounds , on which their dislike is founded , that are to be pleaded in their defence and justification . but if the latter , then is their dislike groundless , and unreasonable : and if so , 't is easie to determine that they ought rather to undeceive them , by discovering their mistake , than to encourage them in their sinful disobedience , ( for so it must be , if it be groundless ) by compliance with them . and by this means they will fairly discharge themselves from all danger of any criminal offence . for however scandal groundlesly taken ( and so it is always , because there is never any reason to be offended at an indifferent thing ) may possibly lay a restraint upon my liberty , till i have informed the person of his error , and disavowed those ill consequences he would draw from my example ; and when i have so done , i have prevented the danger of scandal , which always supposes errour , weakness , or mistake of conscience ; and therefore when the errour is discovered , and the weakness removed , so is the scandal too : and if he shall still pretend to be scandalized , 't is not because he is weak , but peevish ; and if after this i comply with them , and that against the commands of my lawful superiors , i shall disobey authority , only , because my neighbour is unreasonable , i. e. for no reason at all . and this further discovers , how shamelesly these men shuffle and prevaricate with the world ; in that when most of them have declared , in their private discourses , that they are not so fond as to imagine our ceremonies unlawful , or antichristian , and when their grandees and representatives have profess'd to publick authority in solemn conferences , that they scruple not these things upon their own account , but only for fear of giving offence to some well-meaning people that were unhappily possess'd with some odd and groundless jealousies against them . for if so , then why are not these good people , that follow them , better informed ? why do they not instruct them in the truth , and disabuse them out of their false and absurd conceits ? why do they connive at their pride and presumption ? or at least , why do they not more smartly reprove them , for their rashness to censure the actions of their neighbours , to condemn , and revile the wisdom of their superiors , and to scorn the knowledge of their spiritual instructors ? why do they not chide them out of their malepart , peevish , and impatient confidence , and , by convincing them at least of the possibility of their being deceived , reduce them to a more humble and governable temper ? why do they not teach them in plain terms that the establish'd way of worship is lawful , and innocent , and therefore that they ought not to forsake it , to the disturbance of the church , and contempt of authority ? if they would but make it part of their business to undeceive the people , how easily would all their stragling followers return into the communion of the church ? but they dare not let them know their errours , lest they should forfeit both their party , and their reputation : and therefore , instead of that , they rather confirm them in their mistakes , and in their own defence , are forced to perswade them , that they ought to be scandalized . insomuch , that it is not unusual to hear the foolish people pretend it concerning themselves , and to tell you that your action is a scandal to them : by which they mean , either that it leads them into sin , or that it makes them angry . if the former , that is a ridiculous contradiction ; for if they know how the snare and temptation is laid , then they know how to escape it ; my action does not force them into the sin , but only invites them to it , through their own mistake and folly : and therefore if they have discovered , by what mistake they are likely to be betray'd , they know how to provide against the danger : for , if they know their duty in the case , how can they plead scandal , when that supposes ignorance ? and however i behave my self , they know what they have to do themselves : if they do not , how can they say of themselves , that they are scandalized ; when by so saying they confess they are not ? for that implies a knowledge how to do their duty , and avoid the danger . if the latter , i. e. that they are angry , then all their meaning is , that i must part with my liberty , and disobey my superiors to please them ; that their saucy humour must give me law ; that i must be their slave , because they are proud , and insolent ; and that they must gain a power over me , because they are forward to censure mine actions . § 7. thirdly , we encounter scandal with scandal , and let the guilt of all be discharged upon that side that occasions the most and the greatest offences : now all the mischief they can pretend to ensue , in the present constitution of affairs , upon their compliance with authority , reaches no farther than the weak brethren of their own party ; whereas by their refractory disobedience they give offence not only to them , but to all , both to the jew , and to the gentile , and to the church of god. and , not to insist upon the advantages they give to atheism and popery , let me only mind them , that if the accidental offence of the judgments of some well-meaning , but less knowing christians , of a private capacity , pass a sufficient obligation upon conscience , to restrain it from any practice in it self lawful ; of how much more force must that scandal be , that is given to publick authority , by denying obedience to its lawful commands , and by consequence infringing its just power in things not forbidden by any divine law ? now if the rites and ceremonies of the church of england were in themselves apparently evil , then their repugnancy to the law of god were sufficient objection both against their practice , and their imposition ; and their scandal to weak and ignorant christians were of small force , in comparison to their intrinsick , and unalterable unlawfulness : but , because this is not pretended in our present case , what a shameful scandal and reproach to religion is it , to neglect the necessary duty of obedience , and subjection to lawful authority , under pretence of complyance with the weak and groundless scruples of some private men ? 't is certainly past dispute , that the reasonable offence of some weaker brethren cannot so strongly oblige our consciences , as the indispensable command of obeying our lawful superiors . and it is a shame to demand , whether the judgment of a lawful magistrate have not more force and power over conscience , than the judgment of every private christian : if not , then may the laws of authority be cancell'd , and controul'd by the folly and ignorance of those that are subject to them ; for meer scandal arises only from the folly and ignorance of the persons offended . for if there be any just and wise occasion of dislike , the action becomes primarily unlawful , not because 't is scandalous , but because 't is antecedently evil ; whereas meer and proper scandal is only concern'd in things in themselves indifferent : so that in this case all the difficulty is , whether is the greater scandal , to do an indifferent thing , when a private christian dislikes it ; or not to do it , when publick authority enjoyns it ? and certainly it can be no controversie , whether it be a fouler reproach to religion , to disobey a christian magistrate in a thing lawful and indifferent , than to offend a private christian. and i may safely appeal to the judgment of all wise and sober men , whether the intolerable waywardness of some nice and squeamish consciences to the commands of just authority , be not a fouler and more notorious scandal to religion , than a modest and humble compliance with them , though in things not so apparently useful and necessary ? and then , as for their own weak brethren , of whom they seem so exceedingly tender , they can no way more scandalize them , than by complying with them : by which they are tempted and betray'd into the greatest and most mischievous enormities ; for thereby they encourage their folly , feed and cherish their ungrounded fancies , confirm them in a false opinion of the unlawfulness of their superiors commands , and so lead them directly into the sins of unwarrantable schism and disobedience . how many feeble and deluded souls are enticed , by the reputation of their example , to violate the commands of authority , and that , when themselves are not convinced of their unlawfulness , and so entangle themselves in a complicated sin , by disobeying their lawful superiors , and that with a doubtful and unsatisfied conscience ? they cannot be ignorant , that the greatest part of their zealous disciples are offended at the laws and constitutions of the church , for no other reason , than because they see their godly ministers to slight them ; and therefore , unless their example be sufficient to rescind the lawful commands of their governors , they give them the most criminal scandal , by inviting them to the most criminal disobedience . so that all circumstances fairly considered , the avoiding of offences will prove the most effectual inducement to conformity : for this would take away the very grounds and foundations of scandal , remove all our differences , prevent much trouble and more sin , cure all our schisms , quarrels , and divisions , banish our mutual jealousies , censures , and animosities , and establish the nation in a firm and lasting peace . in brief , the only cause of all our troubles and disturbances , is , the inflexible perversness of about an hundred proud , ignorant , and seditious preachers ; against whom , if the severity of the laws were particularly levelled , how easie would it be in some competent time to reduce the people to a quiet and peaceable temper , and to make all our present schisms ( that may otherwise prove eternal ) expire with , or before , the present age ? the want , or neglect , of which method , is the only thing , that has given them so much strength , & so long a continuance . § 8. fourthly , no man is bound to take notice of , or give place to old and inveterate scandals , but rather ought , in defence of his christian liberty , to oppose them with a publick defiance , and to shame those that pretend them out of their confidence . for the only ground of compliance and condescension in these cases , is tenderness and compassion to some mens infirmities ; and as long as i have reason to think this the only cause of their being scandalized , so long am i bound by charity and good nature to condescend to their weaknesses , and no longer : for after they have had a competent time and means of better information , i have reason enough to presume , that 't is not ignorance , that is the gound of their taking offence , but pride or peevishness , or something worse . so that all that is to be done in this case , is to disabuse the weak by rectifying his judgment , removing his scruples , declaring the innocence of my action , clearing it of all sinister suspicions , and protesting against all those abuses , he would put upon the lawful use of my christian liberty : and when i have so done , i have cleared my self from all his ill-natured jealousies and surmises , and discharged all the offices and obligations of charity . and if , after all this , my offended neighbor shall still persevere in his perverse mis-interpretation of my actions , and pretend , that they still gaul and ensnare his tender conscience ; the man is peevish and refractory , and only makes use of this precarious pretence , to justifie his uncharitable censures of my innocent liberty ; and then am i so far from being under any obligation to comply with the peevishness and insolence of his humour , that i am strongly bound to thwart and oppose it . for otherwise i should but betray my christian liberty to the tyranny of his wilful and imperious ignorance , and give superstitious folly the advantage and authority of prescription . for if that prevail in the practice of the world , and i must yield and condescend to it , because 't is stubborn , and obstinate , it must , in process of time , gain the reputation of being the custom and received opinion of the church ; and when it can plead that , then it becomes necessary : inveterate errours are ever sacred and venerable , and what prescription warrants , it always imposes : custom ever did , and ever will rule and preside in the practices of men , because 't is popular ; and being ever attended with a numerous train of followers , it grows proud and confident , and is not ashamed to upbraid free reason with singularity and innovation . so that all i could gain , by an absolute resignation of my own liberty to another mans folly , would be only to give him a plausible pretence to claim a right of command and dominion over me , and to make my self subject to his humour by my own civility . and thus , though the jews were in the beginning of christianity for a time permitted the rites and customs of their nation ; yet afterward when the nature of the christian religion was , or might be , better understood , the church did not think it owed them so much civility : and if the primitive christians had not given check to their stubborn perswasions , they had given them authority ; and , by too long a compliance , would have vouched and abetted their errours , and adopted judaism into christianity ; and circumcision not only might , but of necessity must have been conveyed down to us from age to age , by as firm and uninterrupted a tradition as baptism . and this shews us , how way-ward and unreasonable those men are , who still persevere to object scandal against the churches constitutions , after she has so often protested against this exception by so many solemn declarations . when at first it was pretended , it might perhaps for a while excuse , or alleviate their disobedience ; but after authority has so sufficiently satisfied their scruples , and removed their suspicions , and so amply cleared the innocence of its own intentions , if men will still continue jealous and quarrelsom , they may thank themselves if they smart for their own presumption and folly . and princes have no reason to abridge themselves in the exercise of their lawful power , only , because some of their subjects will not learn to be modest and ingenuous . and if his majesty should think good to condescend so far to these mens peevishness , as to reverse his laws against them out of compliance with them , this would but feed and cherish their insolence , and only encourage them to proceed ( if that be possible ) to more unreasonable demands ; for upon the same reason they insist upon these , they may , when they are granted them , go on to make new remonstrances , i. e. upon no reason at all . and beside , this would but give the countenance of authority to their scruples and superstitious pretences , and leave the church of england under all those calumnies to posterity , with which themselves or their followers labour to charge it , and oblige future ages to admire and celebrate these peevish and seditious persons as the founders of a more godly and thorow reformation . not to mention how much princes have ever gain'd by their concessions to the demands of fanatick zealots , they may easily embolden , but hardly satisfie them ; and if they yield up but one jewel of their imperial diadem to their importunity , 't is not usual for them to rest , till they have gain'd crown and all , and perhaps the head that wears it too ; for there is no end of the madness of unreasonable men . how happy would the world be , if wise men were but wise enough to be instructed by the mistress of fools ? but every age lives as much at all adventure as if it were the first , without any regard to the warnings and experiences of all former ages . sect. 9. fifthly , the commands of authority , and the obligations of obedience , infinitely outweigh , and utterly evacuate all the pretences of scandal . for the matters wherein scandal is concern'd are only things indifferent ; but nothing that is not antecedently sinful remains so , after the commands of lawful authority are superinduced upon it ; these change things indifferent , as to their nature , into necessary duties , as to their vse ; and therefore place them beyond the reach of the obligations of scandal , that may in many cases extend to the restraint of our liberty , but never to the prejudice and hinderance of our duty ; so that no obedience , how offensive soever , unless it be upon some other account faulty , is capable of being made criminal upon the score of scandal ; the obligations whereof are but accidental and occasional , whereas those of obedience are of a prime , absolute , and eternal necessity . princes are gods deputies , and lieutenants here on earth , he vests them with their power , and by his own law binds us to obey theirs ; and though their decrees pass no direct obligation upon the consciences of men , yet the divine laws directly and immediately bind their consciences to obey them ; and god has annex'd the same penalties to disobedience to their laws , as to his own : so that obedience to all the lawful commands of our superiours is one part of our duty to god , because our obligation to it is tied upon us by his own immediate command : aud therefore if the duty of avoiding scandal , that is of compliance with my neighbours weakness , be sufficient to excuse that of obedience to authority , 't is so too to take off the immediate obligations of god himself : so that when these two , the publick commands of a lawful superiour , and the private offence of an honest neighbour countermand each other , if the latter prevail , then may it forbid what god has made a necessary duty , and oblige us to disobey him out of compliance with the folly and ignorance of men . how few are there of the divine laws more severe and peremptory , than those that command obedience to authority ? and therefore if we may decline this duty only to avoid scandal , why not any ? why not all ? this then is our duty , and must be done ; and as for all its casual and equivocal events , no mans conscience is concern'd to provide against them . and if other men will be offended because i do my duty , that is their fault and not mine ; and better be the occasion of another mans sin , than the author of mine own . no mans folly or ignorance can cancel my obligations to god , or god's vicegerent ; and in all cases where there is any competition between scandal and a command of god , or any other lawful authority , there is no other difficulty to be resolved , than , whether i shall disobey god , or displease my foolish neighbour ? and 't is ( one would think ) past all dispute , that when any thing is positively determin'd as a matter of duty , the obligations to obedience in that particular are not , for that very reason , left to any man's choice and prudence ( as all matters of scandal are ) but it must become in all cases and circumstances whatsoever , a duty of a precise absolute , and indispensable necessity , and certainly god had made but odd provision for the government of the world , if he should allow one subject , for the pleasure of another , to derogate from the authority of lawful superiours , and permit them the liberty to disobey the commands of governours , rather than displease one another : for this must unavoidably end in an utter dissolution of all government , & devolve the supremacy entirely upon every private man , that either has or can pretend to have a weak and a tender conscience . for if scandal to weak and tender consciences be of sufficient force to rescind the obligatory power of the commands of authority , then whoever either has , or can pretend to a weak conscience , gains thereby an absolute sovereignty over all his superiours , and vests himself with a power to dispense with or evacuate their commands . so that in the issue of all , this pretence puts it in the power of any peevish or malevolent person to cancel all the decrees of princes , and make his own humour the rule of all their polity and laws of government , and become superior to his own superiours only by being ignorant or peevish . how is it possible to make authority more cheap and contemptible ( if men would study to weaken and disgrace it ) than by making its commands of less force , than the folly or perverseness of every arrogant mechanick ? and what can be more destructive of all manner of government than to make all the rules of order and discipline less sacred , than the whimsies of every phantastick zealot ? in brief , the peace and quiet of honest men is likely to be mighty well secured , when disobedience shall be thought the product of a more exact and tender conscience ; when to pick quarrels with the laws , and make scruple of obeying them shall be made the specifick character of the godly party ; and when giddy and humorous zeal shall not only excuse , but hallow disobedience ; when every one , that has pride enough to fancy himself a child of god , shall have licence to despise authority and do as he list . what an irresistible temptation is this to proud and zealous enthusiasts , to affect being troublesome to government , and disobedient to all the laws of discipline , when it shall pass for the result of a more extraordinary tenderness of conscience ? what encouragement could men have to obey their superiours , when to dispute and dislike their laws shall be thought to proceed from a greater holiness and a more exact integrity ? and what a resistless inducement is this to all proud and phantastick zealots to remonstrate to the wisdom of authority , if thereby they may gain the renown and glory of a more conspicuous godliness ? if men would but consider the natural consequences of this , and the like pretences , they could not but see how fatally and unavoidably they lead to anarchy , and an utter dissolution of all government . which mischief ( as is notoriously apparent from the premisses ) all the world can never prevent , if the scandal of private men may ever dispence with the obligation of publick laws . chap. viii . of the pretence of a tender and unsatisfied conscience ; the absurdity of pleading it in opposition to the commands of publick authority . the contents . this pretence is but an after-game of conscience . 't is a certain and unavoidable dissolution of government . 't is a superannuated pretence , and is become its own confutation . old scruples proceed not from tenderness , but stubborness of conscience . this particularly shewn in their scruple of kneeling at the communion . they affect their scruples out of pride and vain-glory. tenderness of conscience is so far from being the reason of disobedience , that it lays upon us the strongest obligations to obedience . a tender conscience is ever of a yielding and pliable temper . when 't is otherwise , 't is nothing but humour or insolence , and is usually hardy enough not to scruple the greatest villanies . the commands of publick authority abrogate all doubts and scruples , and determine all irresolution of conscience . the matter of all scruples is too small to weigh against the sin and mischief of disobedience . the apostles apology , viz. we ought to obey god rather than men , holds only in matters of great and apparent duty , but not in doubtful and disputable cases . nothing more easie than to raise scruples . no law can escape them , this particularly shewn in our own laws . when two obligations interfere , the greater always cancels the less . hence 't is impossible for any man to be reduced into a necessity of sinning . obedience to publick authority is one of the greatest and most indispensable duties of mankind , because most necessary to their well-being . to act against our own scruples , out of obedience to authority , is an eminent instance of virtue . in cases of a publick concern , men are to be govern'd not by their own private , but by the publick iudgment . in these matters the commands of publick authority are the supreme rules of conscience . there is a vast difference between liberty and authority of conscience . the puritans tenderness of conscience is one of the rankest sort of heresies . wherefore 't is absolutely necessary for authority to command things indifferent . the conclusion of all . sect. 1. the last refuge for godly disobedience is the pretence of a poubtful , scrupulous , & unsatisfied conscience ; for ( say they ) though we cannot positively condemn the ceremonial constitutions of the church , as things in themselves unlawful , yet unlawful they are to us , whose consciences are not sufficiently satisfied concerning them ; because whatsoever is done with a doubting conscience , i. e. without faith , or a full perswasion of mind , is done against it : according to that clear and unquestionable maxim of st. paul , whatsoever is not of faith , is sin . but this precarious pretence , as well as that of scandal , is but an after-game of conscience ; they first resolved to quarrel our constitutions , and then 't is an easie matter to want satisfaction about them ; and when mens arguments depend upon their wills , 't is in their own power only to repeal them , and all the reason in the world can never cure willful and artificial scruples . however , if the obligation of laws must yield to that of a weak and tender conscience , how impregnably is every man , that has a mind to disobey , arm'd against all the commands of his superiours ? no authority shall be able to govern him , farther than himself pleases , and if he dislike the law , he is sufficiently excused from all obligations to obedience ; and no laws shall ever be able to oblige any man , that either has , or can pretend to a weak conscience : for seeing no man can discern the reality of mens pretensions , 't is all one to the concernments of government , whether the tenderness of conscience , that men plead to excuse their disobedience , be serious or counterfeit : for , whether it be so , or so , 't is directly contrary to all the ends and interests of government . and if it be admitted for a sufficient excuse to disobey , 't is an effectual and incurable dissolution of all the force of laws , and makes them obligatory then only when every man pleases ; and he that will may obey , and he that will not may chuse ; seeing 't is so easie for any man , that has no inclination to the law , to claim the inviolable priviledge of a tender conscience : so that to make proviso's for tender consciences , is to abate the whole law ; seeing it gives every man liberty to exempt himself , and if he dislike the law , he is under no obligation to obey it . but suppose this pretence to be serious without design or disguise , is it fit the laws of the common-wealth should ask leave of every ignorant , and well-meaning man , whether they shall be laws or no ? a weak conscience is the product of a weak understanding ; and he is a very subtil man , that can find the difference between a tender head , and a tender conscience : and therefore if princes must consult their subjects consciences in all their laws , this would make all the wisdom of government submit to the power of folly and ignorance . and when any person pleads weakness or tenderness of conscience against the obligation of any law , his meaning is , that he is not of the same judgment and opinion with his governours ; and 't is wise , and handsom , and becoming the grandeur or authority in all its laws , to comply with the learned apprehensions of every honest and illiterate peasant ; who if he be not satisfied in their determinations , may cancel their obligations as to himself , and if they offer to force this honest man to submission , they invade the sacred and inviolable liberty of a tender conscience . so full of anarchy are all these mens pretences . and therefore governours must look to the publick , and let tender consciences look to themselves . laws must be of an unyielding and inflexible temper , and not such soft and easie things , as to bend to every mans humour , that they ought to command . and unless government be managed by some setled principles , it must for ever remain weak and unfixed : princes must not be diffident in their rules , and maxims of policy ; but as they must set down some to themselves , so they must act up roundly to them . for all changes of the publick laws and methods of policy sadly weaken , if they do not utterly unsettle the common-wealth ; in that prescription is , at least in the practice of the world , the greatest strength and security of government : 't is indeed the fountain of authority , and the thing that vests princes with their prerogatives ; and no power , what right or title soever it may plead , can ever be firmly establish'd , till it can plead the warrant and authority of prescription : and therefore if princes will be resolute ( and if they will govern , so they must be ) they may easily make the most stubborn consciences bend to their commands ; but if they will not , they must submit themselves , and their power , to all the follies and passions of their subjects . for there are no conceits so extravagant , or so pernicious , that may not pass for principles of conscience . in brief , there is nothing so ungovernable as a tender conscience , or so restive and inflexible as folly or wickedness , when hardned with religion : and therefore instead of being complyed with , they must be restrain'd with a more peremptory and unyielding rigour , than naked and unsanctified villany ; else will they quickly discover themselves to be pregnant with greater and more fatal dangers . sect. 2. this stale pretence comes now too late , and is so ancient , that 't is long since superannuated : old doubts and scruples are like old scandals worn out of date by time and experience : they are the natural products of ignorance , weakness is their parent , and folly their nurse ; and if they improve not into confidence , they never survive their infancy , but of themselves vanish and dissolve into nothing : and therefore this pretence having out-lived it self , is become its own answer and confutation : because men ought not , nay , they cannot remain so long under vncertainties ; and 't is impossible but they should before this time be competently determined , as to the lawfulness or unlawfulness of the things themselves : for if in so long a time they have not been able to discover that sinfulness in them they suspected , that is sufficient evidence of their being innocent ; because their scruples have occasioned them to be so throughly sifted and examined : and if after all that hot and vehement contention , that has been raised about them , it appears not yet wherein they are criminal and chargeable , ( for if it does , then the doubt ceases , and the certainty , not the suspition of sin is to be objected ) that is presumption enough for any modest and sober man to conclude their innocence ; and still to retain the scruple , is folly and peevishness , and then the conscience is not doubtful , but obstinate and peremptory : the man is resolved to cherish his scruple , and persist in his folly ; and if he will not be satisfied , it is not because he is weak and timorous , but because he is stubborn and dis-ingenuous . and then he pretends conscience only to vouch his humour , and his insolence , i. e. he is a villain and an hypocrite ; and is so far from deserving pity , especially from authority , that no offenders can more need or provoke their severity ; in that , such men resolve to tire out their governors by their inflexible stubbornness , and to affront their laws with trifles and contemptuous exceptions . at the first setlement of a church or new religion , then indeed mens old follies , prejudices , and weaknesses , ought to be charitably considered ; and they are not to be forced into new customs and usages , by too much rigor and severity ; but ought to be gently and tenderly treated , till time and better information may wear off their scruples , and little exceptions . and this was the case of the iews in the first ages of christianity , who were at first indulged in their weak and trifling conceits ; because then they might reasonably be presumed to arise from a pitiable ignorance and dissetlement of conscience : but as soon as the abrogation of the mosaick institution was fully declared and acknowledged in the church , they were brought under the common yoke of discipline , and were not permitted to plead their doubts and scruples against publick laws and constitutions . and this too is our present case , men labour to support an old schism by out-worn scruples and jealousies , and will persevere in their doubts , because they are resolved never to be satisfied ; for otherwise it were impossible , that after so much time , and so much satisfaction , they could still remain unresolved . and if whole armies of reason have not been sufficient to chase away all their little and imaginary fears : yet methinks so long time , and so much experience might be sufficient to convince them , that they are but shadows , and illusions of their own melancholy fancies ; for had they been real and substantial things , it is impossible they should ever have escaped the discovery of so long and so severe a scrutiny . but , if nor time , nor reason can disabuse them , it is not their ignorance , but their obstinacy that is invincible . thus v. g. when to kneel at the communion , is in it self an handsom and decent action , in that this sacrament is the most solemn piece of gratitude , or worship in the christian religion , and a peculiar acknowledgment of our vast and unspeakable obligations to our redeemer ; and therefore to be performed with the profoundest reverence and humility : and when these men themselves are not only ready to observe , but also to enjoyn the same posture in their ordinary prayers , and other less solemn expressions of devotion ; and when the power of the church has actually determined and required this reverent posture , to stamp a peculiar sacredness and solemnity upon this duty , no man can possibly now scruple its practice without affected contempt , and wilful disobedience ; because they cannot but be convinced ( unless they are resolved against it ) of the vanity and dis-ingenuity of their old pretence : namely , lest they should be interpreted to give religious worship to the elements , and by lying prostrate before the bread and wine , they should become guilty of idolatry , in giving divine worship to a sensless piece of matter . for when they plead this excuse for their disobedience , they cannot but be conscious to themselves , that by it they do not only despise , but slander and reproach the laws , that they out-face and traduce authority , and would force their governours to believe and confess that they favour what they expresly abhor ; seeing the very same law that enjoyns this ceremony , provides so expresly against this abuse , and declares so industriously , that it is so far from designing any reverence to the creatures themselves , that it abhors it ; but only requires it , as it is used in all other religious addresses to heaven . and , if notwithstanding all this , men will dread it as a piece of idolatry , because ( forsooth ) it has been , or may be abused to that purpose , i say no more , than that if such thin and frivolous scruples may out-weigh the laws , and evacuate our obligations to obedience , there are none in the world that are not as apparently liable to as dis-ingenuous surmises ; and they may as rationally forbear looking up towards heaven in their prayers , lest they should worship the clouds , or the sun , moon , and stars . but the truth of it is , some men study for impertinent scruples , to ensnare themselves , and labour to raise great doubts from little reasons , and cannot be satisfied , because they will not ; they have enslaved themselves to their follies , and boared their ears to their scruples , and are resolved to grow old in a voluntary bondage to trifles and fooleries . now it is necessary for people of this humour to streighten the laws , till they have made them too severe and rigorous to be obeyed , to draw their knot , till it becomes troublesom and uneasie ; to put them upon the wrack , and stretch them beyond , or beside their own intention by rare and extraordinary cases , by harsh and unkind interpretations , and by far-fetch'd and disingenuous suspicions ; and , under the shelter of such precarious pretences as no law can possibly avoid , they refuse the liberty that is given them to obey the laws , only that they may take the licence to disobey them . in brief , the main mystery of all this niceness ( though themselves have not wit enough to observe its first causes ) is , for the most part , nothing but a little pride and vain-glory : it is a glorious thing to suffer for a tender conscience , and therefore it is easie and natural for some people to affect some little scruples against the commands of authority , thereby to make themselves obnoxious to some little penalties ; and then what godly men are they that are so ready to be punished for a good conscience ? how do such men hug and nurse their dear scruple ? all the reason , and all the perswasion in the world shall never be able to wrest it from them . it is their ephod and their teraphim , the only mark of their godliness , and symbol of their religion ; and if you rob them of that , you take away their gods : and what have they more ? sect. 3. if my conscience be really weak and tender , what can become it more than humble obedience and submission to authority ? weakness of conscience always proceeds in some measure from want of wit ; and therefore to make this the pretence of disobedience , is in effect to say , i will controul the wisdom of my superiours , because i have little or none my self . certainly , where persons have any serious sense of their own ignorance , they can scarce have a stronger obligation to obedience : and they can never be so confident in any action , as when they obey ; because then they have the publick wisdom to warrant them , and their own folly to excuse them : that is , they follow the best guide men are capable of , in their circumstances . and a subject that is conscious of his own weakness , when he resigns up himself to the wisdom of his superiours , in matters doubtful and disputable , is in effect governed by the best and safest dictates of his own conscience ; which , unless it be hardned with pride and insolence , cannot but perswade him , that he ought to presume them more competent judges of the fitness and expediency of publick laws , whose work and office it is to understand them , than himself , who is wholly ignorant of the management and transaction of publick affairs . this is the most common principle of humane life , and all men practise by it in all their concerns , but those of religion . and that is the reason it has ever been debauched with so many follies and frenzies , because silly people will not submit their consciences to any thing but their own giddy imaginations : whereas , if they would but condescend to the same rules of government in matters of religion , as they do in all their other affairs , obedience to authority might be secured without any violence to conscience ; seeing no conscience , that is acted by wise and sober perswasions , will ever be stiff in doubtful and uncertain cases , against the determinations of the publick wisdom : because such men being sensible how unable they are to govern themselves , they know they can never act more safely , than when they are governed by their superiors : and being they cannot pretend to trust confidently enough to their own conduct , how can they proceed upon wiser and more reasonable grounds , than by committing themselves to the publick wisdom ? in which , though possibly they might be misguided , yet they may secure themselves , that , god who values integrity more than subtilty , will pardon their weakness , and reward their meekness and humility . but for a man to plead weakness of conscience for disobedience to government , is just as if a child in minority should reject the advice of his guardians , because he has not wit enough to know , when he is well advised ; or as if a fool should refuse to be governed , because he has not reason enough to discern when he is well managed ; or as if a blind man should not trust to the conduct of a guide , because he is not able to judge when he is misled . humility and condescension are the most proper duties of weakness and ignorance , and meekness , and simplicity the only ornaments of a tender conscience : and one would think that men , whose confidence exceeds not their wit , should be strangely wary of censuring the wisdom of authority . and therefore it is but a very odd pretence to weakness of conscience , when it appears in nothing but being too strong for government ; and that man that pretends to it , does not seriously believe himself , if he presumes he is wise enough to govern his governors : and so does every one , that thinks the perswasions of his own mind of sufficient force to cancel the obligations of their commands . it is an handsom piece of modesty for one , who pretends to weakness of conscience , when his prince requires his obedience to give him counsel , to advise him how to govern the kingdom , to blame and correct the laws , and to tell him how this and the other might be mended . and , what can be more fulsom , than to see men , under pretences of great strictness and severity of conscience , to cherish stubbornness and vanity , and to endure neither laws nor superiours , because they are proud enough to think themselves more holy than their neighbours ? what a malapert and insolent piece of pride is it , for every prating gossip and illiterate mechanick ( that can mark themselves with some distinctive names and characters of godliness ) to scoff and jibe at the wisdom of publick authority , to affront the laws and constitutions of a church , to pity and disdain the lamentable ignorance of learned men , and to libel all sorts of people that are not of their own rendez-vous ( especially their superiors ) with slanders and idle stories ? what strange effects are these of a diffident and timorous conscience ? a conscience that knows it self to be acted by certain and infallible principles , how could it be more head-strong and confident ? and therefore , if we compare these mens practices with their pretences , what can be more evident , than that it is not tenderness of conscience that emboldens them to fall out with all the world , but pride , and vanity , and insolence ? for nothing else could possibly drive them on with so peremptory a sail , against so strong and so united a torrent . for a conscience , that is only weak and tender , is of a yielding and pliable temper , it is soft and innocent modest , and teachable , apt to comply with the commands of its superiours , and easily capable of all impressions tending to peace and charity ; but when it is stubborn and confident in its own apprehensions , then it is not tender , but hardy and humoursom : and , as queasie as it is in reference to its superiours commands , it is usually strong enough to digest rebellion and villany ; and whilst it rises against a poor innocent ceremony , it is scarce ever stirred with schism , faction , and cruelty . now to permit these men their liberty , who mistake insolence for tenderness of conscience , ( than which nothing more easie , or more natural for people , that are both proud and simple ) is to suffer ignorance to ride in triumph , because it is proud and confident ; and to indulge zealous idiots in their folly , because they threaten authority , to be peevish and scrupulous to their laws , and to infest their government with a sullen and cross-grain'd godliness ( an artifice not much unlike the tricks of some froward children ) and therefore such untoward and humoursom saints must be lashed out of their sullenness ( as children are ) into compliance and better manners ; otherwise they will be an eternal annoyance to all government , with the childish and whining pretences of a weak and crasie conscience . in brief , i appeal to all mankind ( that have but any tolerable conception of the nature and design of religion ) whether it be not much more becoming the temper of a christian spirit , to comply with the commands of their superiors , that are not apparently sinful , in order to the peace and setlement of the church , than to disturb its quiet by a stubborn and peremptory adherence to our own doubts and scruples ? for , what is there in christianity of greater importance , than the vertues of meekness , peaceableness , and humility ? and in what can these great duties more discover themselves , than in the offices and civilities of humble obedience ; that contains in it all that is most amiable , and most useful in the christian religion ? 't is modesty , 't is meekness , 't is humility , 't is love , 't is peacebleness , 't is ingenuity ; 't is a duty so pregnant with vertue in it self , and of such absolute necessity to the happiness of mankind , that there is scarce anything can come in competition with it , whose obligation it will not at the first appearance utterly cancel and evacuate , ( as i shall more fully demonstrate in the ensuing propositions . ) in the mean while we see , what is to be done in the case of tender consciences : if they are acted by calm and peaceable principles , they will not desire liberty ; if they are not , they will not deserve it . for , if they are humble and modest , they will chuse to submit to the will of their superiors , rather than , by thwarting them , do what in themselves lies to discompose the publick peace . and therefore if they will rather venture to embroil the common-wealth , and contradict authority , than forego their own peremptory determinations , and make their superiors comply and bend to their confidence ; it is because they are criminally bold and imperious in their own conceits , and are of a temper too stubborn , insolent , and presumptuous to be endured in any society of men . sect. 4. doubts and scruples are so far from being sufficient warranty of disobedience , that they are outweighed by the obligations of the law : for if i doubt concerning the injustice of my action , i must also of necessity doubt of the injustice of my disobedience ; and unless i am absolutely certain that the law is evil , i am sure disobedience to it is : and therefore i am always as forcibly bound to obey a scrupled law , for fear of the sin of disobedience , as to disobey it , for fear it commands an essential evil : so that a doubting conscience must always at least as much fright us from disobeying , as from obeying any humane law. though indeed , if we would speak properly , the commands of authority perfectly determine , and evacuate all doubtfulness and irresolution of conscience : for , if it before hung in suspence concerning the lawfulness of the action , and unresolved , whether it were good or evil , as not having competent reason to incline to one side rather than to the other ; yet when authority casts its commands into the scale ( if in some mens consciences they weigh any thing ) they cannot but add weight more than enough to determine the judgment , and incline the balance . for if the reasons on both sides were equal before , than thet side that gains this accession has most reason now . so that laws do not force us to obey them with a doubting conscience , but remove our doubts at the same time they require our obedience ; because they destroy the equal probability of the two opinions , and determine the conscience to a confidence of acting , by directing it to follow the safest and most probable perswasion : in that no practice or opinion , that is capable of doubt or uncertainty , can be of equal importance with the prime duties of obedience and humility ; and the matter of all doubts and scruples is ever of too small and inconsiderable a consequence to be laid in the balance against the great and weighty mischiefs of disobedience . if indeed the commands of authority enjoyned any thing absolutely and apparently evil , and against the great and unalterable rules of truth and goodness , in such exigents da veniam imperator would be a fair and civil excuse : but matters of a less importance will not pay the charges of a persecution , it is not worth the while to suffer for little things ; and that man has but the just reward of his own folly , that would suffer martyrdom in the cause of an indifferent ceremony , or for the truth of a metaphysical notion . and the suggestion of optatus to the donatists , who were so forward to cast away their lives in defence of their little schism , was smart and severe . nulli dictum est , nega deum ; nulli dictum est , incende testamentum ; nulli dictum est , aut thus pone , aut basilicas dirue . istae enim res solent martyria generare . matters , wherein the being of religion , and the truth of christianity , were directly concerned , were worth the dying for , and would quit the costs of martyrdom ; but no indifferent rites or ceremonies were of value enough to pay for the lives of men : and the zealots of the pars donati , who were so ambitious to suffer imprisonment , confiscation of goods , banishment , and death it self , out of a pertinacious resolution against some established customs and usages of the church , could never be rewarded in any other heaven , but the paradise of fools . things that are essentially evil , no change or variety of circumstances can make good ; and therefore no commands of any superior can ever warrant or legitimate their practice : but then these are always matters of the greatest and most weighty importance , and of an apparent and palpable obliquity , such as blasphemy , murther , injustice , cruelty , ingratitude , &c. that are so clearly and intrinsically evil , that no end , how good or great soever , can ever carry with it goodness enough to abate or evacuate their malice . but as for all matters , that are not so apparently good or evil , but are capable of doubt and uncertainty , their morality is of so small importance , that it can never stand in competition with the obligations and conveniences of the great duty of obedience . and thus when the apostles were forbidden by the jewish sanhedrim to preach the name of iesus , acts 5. 29. they desired to be excused , upon no other account but of an express command from god himself , in a matter of great importance , and apparent necessity . our blessed saviour coming into the world with a commission from its supream governour to make laws , and the holy apostles having an infallible assurance of his divine authority from his great , manifest , and undeniable miracles ( the most certain and unquestionable credentials that heaven can send to the sons of men ) they could not but lie under an indispensable obligation to give assent to his message , and obedience to his commands ; and that out of duty to the supream governour of the universe ; from whose unquestionable laws , no other authority can ever derogate , because it is all of an inferiour nature . but to apply this rule , which the apostles never made use of , but in a case of certain , absolute , and notorious injustice , to matters of a small , doubtful , and uncertain nature , is absolutely inconsistent with the quiet of government , and infinitely distant from the intention of the apostles . their plea was in a case of great , evident , and unquestionable necessity : but what warrant is that for my disobedience , when i only fear , or fancy the law to be unjust ? which , if it were so , is not of moment enough to weigh against the mischiefs and enormities , that follow upon disobedience : and therefore in all doubtful and less considerable cases , that side , on which obedience stands , must ever carry it ; and no man that is either wise or good , will ever trouble his governours , with nice and curious disputes ; the authority of the law stifles all scruples , and trifling objections . and thus where there was no apparent repugnancy to the law of god , we find none more compliant and conformable in all other things than the apostles , freely using any customs of the synagogue or iewish church , that were not expresly cancelled by some divine prohibition . but further , this their apology is as forcible a plea in concerns of civil justice and common honesty , as in matters of religion ; it holds equally in both , in cases of a certain and essential injustice , and fails equally in both , in doubtful and less material cases ; and was as fairly urged by that famous lawyer papinian , who upon this account , when the emperor commanded him to defend and justifie the lawfulness of parricide , chose rather to die , than to patronize so monstrous a villany : here the wickedness was great and palpable . but in matters more doubtful and less material , where the case is nice and curious , and not capable of any great interest , or great reason , there obedience out-weighs and evacuates all doubts , jealousies , and suspicions : and what wise or honest man will offend , or provoke his superiours upon thin pretences , and for little regards ? and if every man , that can raise doubts and scruples , and nice exceptions against a law , shall therefore set himself free from its obligation ; then farewel all peace , and all government . for what more easie to any man , that understands the fundamental grounds and reasons of moral equity , than to pick more material quarrels against the civil laws of any common-wealth , than our adversaries can pretend to against our ecclesiastical constitutions ? and now , shall a philosopher be excused from obedience to the laws of his country , because he thinks himself able to make exceptions to their prudence and convenience , and to prove them not so useful to the publick , nor so agreeable to the fundamental rules of natural justice and equity , as himself could have contrived ? what if i am really perswaded , that i can raise much more considerable objections against littletons tenures , than ever these men have , or shall be able to produce against our ceremonial constitutions ? though it be easie to be mistaken in my conceit , yet whether i am , or am not , it is all one , if i am confident . and now it would be mightily conducive to the interests of justice and publick peace for me , and all others of my fond perswasion in this particular , to make remonstrances to the laws of the land , to petition the king and parliament ; to leave us , at the liberty of our own conscience and discretion , to follow the best light , god has given us , for the setlement of our own estates ; because we think we can do it more exactly according to the laws of natural iustice , than if we are tied up to the positive laws of the land. thus that groundless and arbitrary maxim of the law , that inheritances may lineally descend , but not lineally ascend , whereby the father is made uncapable of being immediate heir to the son , would be thought by a philosopher prejudicial to one of the most equal and most ingenuous laws of nature , viz. the gratitude of children to parents ; which this law seems in a great measure to hinder , by alienating those things from them , whereby we are best able to express it . what if i have been happy in a loving and tender father , that has been strangely solicitous to leave me furnished with all the comforts and conveniences of life , that declined not to forego any share of his own ease and happiness to procure mine , that has spent the greatest part of his care and industry to bless me , according to the proportion of his abilities , with a good fortune , and a good education ; and has , perhaps out of an over-tender solicitude for my welfare , reduc'd himself to great streights and exigences : how monstrous & unnatural must the contrivance of this law appear to me , that , when the bounty of providence has blest me with a fortune answerable to the good old mans desires and endeavours , if i should happen to be cut off before him by an untimely death , all that , whereby i am able to recompence his fatherly tenderness , should in the common and ordinary course of law be conveyed from him to another person ; the stream of whose affections was confined to another channel , and who , being much concerned for his own family , could in all probability be but little concerned for me ? what an unnatural and unjust law is this that designs , as far as it can , to cut off the streams of our natural affections , and disposes of our possessions contrary to the very first tendencies , and obligations of nature ? so easie a thing is it to talk little plausibilities against any laws , whose obligation is positive , and not of a prime and absolute necessity : and yet down-right rebellion it would be , if i , or any man else , should refuse subjection to these and the like laws , upon these , & the like pretences . and thus , we see , is the case all the way equal between laws civil , and laws ecclesiastical . in all matters greatly and notoriously wicked , the nature of the action out-weighs the duty of obedience ; but in all cases less certain and less material , the duty of obedience out-weighs the nature of the action . and this may suffice to shew , from the subject matters of all doubts and scruples , that they are not of consideration great enough to be opposed to the commands of authority . and this leads me from the matter of a scrupulous conscience , to consider its authority : and therefore , sect. 5. as the objects of a scrupulous conscience are of too mean importance , to weigh against the mischiefs of disobedience ; so are its obligations too weak , to prevail against the commands of publick authority . for when two contradictory obligations happen to encounter , the greater ever cancels the less ; because if all good be eligible , then so are all the degrees of goodness too : and therefore to that side on which the greater good stands , our duty must ever incline ; otherwise we despise all those degrees of goodness , it contains in it above the other . for in all the rules of goodness there is great inequality and variety of degrees , some are prescribed for their own native excellency & usefulness , and others purely for their subserviency to these : now when a greater & a lesser virtue happen to clash , as it frequently falls out in the transaction of humane affairs , there the less always gives place to the greater , because it is good only in order to it ; and therefore where its subordination ceases , there its goodness ceases , and by consequence its obligation . for no subordinate or instrumental dutys are absolutly commanded or commended , but become good or evil by their accidental relations ; their goodness is not intrinsick , but depends upon the goodness of their end , and their being directed to a good end , ( if they are not intrinsically evil ) makes them virtuous ; because their morality is entirely relative and changeable , and so alters its colours of good and evil , by its several aspects and postures to various and different ends : and therefore they never carry any obligation in them , when they interfere with higher & more useful duties . and hence it comes to pass , that it is absolutely impossible for any man to be reduced into a necessity of sinning ; because , though two inferiour and subordinate duties may sometimes happen to be inconsistent with each other or with some duty of an absolute and unalterable goodness ; yet the nature of things is so handsomly contrived , that it is utterly impossible that things should ever happen so crosly , as to make two essential and indispensable duties stand at mutual opposit on : and therefore no man can ever be forc'd to act against one , out of compliance with the other : and if there be any contrariety between a natural and instrumental duty , there the case is plain , that the greater evacuates the less ; if between two instrumental duties , it can scarce so fall out , but that some emergent circumstances shall make one of them the more necessary ; but if they are both equally eligible , there is no difficulty ; and a man may do as he pleases . it is indeed possible for any man , by his own voluntary choice to entangle himself in this sad perplexity ; but there is no culpable error that is unavoidable , and every sinfully erroneous conscience is voluntary and vincible : and if men will not part with their sinful errors , it is not because they cannot , but because they will not avoid them . and if they resolve to abuse themselves , no wonder , if their sin be unavoidable ; but then the necessity is the effect of their own choice : and so all sin is inevitable , when the peremptory determination of the will , has made it necessary . but as for the nature of all the laws of goodness in themselves , they are so wisely contrived , that it is absolutely impossible any circumstances should ever fall out so awkardly , as to make one sin the only way to escape another , or a necessary passage to a necessary duty . now to apply this general rule of conscience to our particular case , there is not any precept in the gospel set down in more positive and unlimited expressions , or urged with more vehement motives and perswasions , than obedience to government ; because there are but few , if any , duties of a weightier and more important necessity than this : and for this reason is it , that god has injoined it with such an absolute and unrestrained severity , thereby to intimate that nothing can restrain the universality of its obligatory power , but evident & unquestionable disobedience to himself . the duty of obedience is the original and fundamental law of humane societies , and the only advantage that distinguishes government from anarchy . this takes away all dissentions , by reducing every mans private will and judgment to the determination of publick authority : whereas , without it , every single person is his own governour , and no man else has any power or command over his actions , i. e. he is out of the state of government , and society . and for this reason is obedience , and condescension to the wisdom of publick authority , one of the most absolute and indispensable duties of mankind , as being so indispensably necessary to the peace and preservation of humane societies . now a conscience , that will not stand to the decrees and determinations of its governors , subverts the very foundations of all civil society , that subsists upon no other principle , but mens submitting their own judgments to the decisions of authority , in order to the publick peace and setlement ; without which there must of necessity be eternal disorders and confusions . and therefore , where the dictates of a private conscience happen to thwart the determinations of the publick laws , they , in that case , lose their binding power ; because , if in that case they should oblige , it would unavoidably involve all societies in perpetual tumults and disorders . whereas the main end of all divine , as well as humane laws , is the prosperity and preservation of humane society : so that where any thing tends to the dissolution of government , and undermining of humane happiness , though in other circumstances it were virtuous , yet in this it becomes criminal , as destroying a thing of greater goodness than it self . and hence , though a doubtful and scrupulous conscience should oblige in all other cases , yet , when its commands run counter to the commands of authority , there its obligatory power immediately ceases ; because to act against it , is useful to vastly more noble and excellent purposes , than to comply with it : in that every man that thwarts and disobeys the laws of the common-wealth , does his part to disturb its publick peace , that is maintained by nothing else but obedience and submission to its laws . now this is manifestly a bigger mischief and inconvenience , than the foregoing of any doubts and scruples can amount to : and therefore , unless authority impose upon me something that carries with it more evil and mischief , than there is convenience in the peace and happiness of the whole society , i am indispensably bound to yield obedience to his commands : and though i scrupulously fear lest the magistrates injunctions should be superstitious , yet , because i am not sure they are so , and because a little irregularity in the external expressions of divine worship carries with it less mischief and enormity , than the disturbance of the peace of kingdoms , i am absolutely obliged to lay aside my doubt , rather than disobey the law ; because to preserve it , naturally tends to vast mischiefs and confusion ; whereas the inconvenience of my acting against it , is but doubtful ; and though it were certain , yet it is small and comparatively inconsiderable . and therefore to act against the inclinations of our own doubts and scruples , is so far from being criminal , that it is an eminent instance of virtue , and implies in it , besides its subserviency to the welfare of mankind , the great duties of modesty , peaceableness , and humility . and as for , what some are forward enough to object , that this is , to do evil , that good may come of it ; it is a vain and frivolous exception , and prevented in what i have already discoursed ; in that that rule is concerned only in things absolutely and essentially evil , whose nature no case can alter , no circumstance can extenuate , and no end can sanctifie : but things that are only subserviently good or evil , derive all their virtue from the greater virtue they wait upon ; and therefore where a meaner , or an instrumental duty stands in competition with an essential virtue , its contrariety destroys its goodness ; and instead of being less virtuous , becomes altogether sinful ; for though it have abstractedly some degrees of goodness , yet when it chances to oppose any duty , that has more , and more excellent degrees , it becomes evil and unreasonable , by as many degrees as that excels it . and one would think this case should be past dispute , as to the matters of our present controversie , that are of so vast a distance and disproportion ; forasmuch as obedience is a virtue of so absolute necessity , and so diffusive usefulness ; whereas the goodness of those little things , they oppose to it , is so small , that it is confessedly scarce discernable ; and their consciences , as nice and curious as they are , not able to determine positively , whether they are good or evil : and therefore , what a prodigious madness is it , to weigh such trifling and contemptible things against the vast mischiefs and inconveniences of disobedience ? the voice of the publick laws cannot but drown the uncertain whispers of a tender conscience ; all its scruples are hushed and silenced by the commands of authority : it dares not whimper , when that forbids ; and the nod of a prince aws it into silence and submission . but if they dare to murmur , and their proud stomachs will swell against the rebukes of their superiors , then there is no remedy but the rod and correction : they must be chastised out of their peevishness , and lashed into obedience . in a word , though religion so highly consults the interests of common-wealths , and is the greatest instrument of the peace & happiness of kingdoms ; yet so monstrously has it been abused by the folly of some , and wickedness of others , that nothing in the world has been the mother of more mischief to government . the main cause of which has been mens not observing the due scale and subordination of duties , and that , in case of competition , the greater always destroys the less : for hence have they opposed the laws , and by consequence the peace of the society , for an opinion , or a ceremony , or a subordinate instrumental duty ; whereas , had they soberly considered the important necessity of their obedience , they would scarce have found any duty of moment enough to weigh against it . for seeing almost all virtues are injoined us in order to the felicity of man , and seeing there is nothing more conducive to it , than that which tends to the publick weal and good of all ; and seeing this is the design , and natural tendency of the publick laws , and our obedience to them ; that had need be hugely , certainly , and absolutely evil , that cancels their obligation , and dispences with our obedience ; and not a form , or a ceremony , or an outward expression , or any other instrumental part of religion . but some menthink it better to be disputative than peaceable ; and that there is more godliness in being captious and talkative , than in being humble and obedient : it is a pleasure to them to be troublesome to authority , they beat about , and search into every little corner , for doubts & exceptions against their commands : and how do they triumph , when they can but start a scruple ? they labour to stumble at atoms , to boggle at straws and shadows ; and cherish their scruples till they become as big as they are unreasonable , and lay so much stress upon them , as to make them out-weigh the greatest and most weighty things of the law. and it is prodigiously strange ( and yet as common too ) to consider how most men , who pretend ( and that perhaps sincerely ) to great tenderness of conscience , and scruple postures and innocent ceremonies , are so hardy as to digest the most wicked and most mischievous villanies : they can dispence with spightfulness , malice , disobedience , schism , and disturbance of the publick peace , and all , to nourish a weak and an impotent scruple ; and in pursuit of any little conceit , they will run themselves into the greatest and most palpable enormities ; and will cherish it , till it weighs down the peace of kingdoms , and fundamental principles of common honesty . find me a man that is obstinately scrupulous , and i will shew you one that is incurably seditious ; and whoever will prefer his scruples before the great duties of obedience , peace , quietness , and humility , cannot avoid being often betrayed into tumults and seditions . but if we will resolve to be tender of our obedience to the great , undoubted , and unalterable commands of the gospel ; that will defend our consciences against the vexation of scruples , and little inadvertencies , protect the publick from all the disturbances of a peevish and wayward godliness , and secure our acceptance with god , without being so punctual and exact in the offerings of mint and cummin . sect. 6. in cases and disputes of a publick concern , private men are not properly sui iuris , they have no power over their own actions , they are not to be directed by their own judgments , or determined by their own wills ; but by the commands and determinations of the publick conscience . and if there be any sin in the command , he that imposed it , shall answer for it ; and not i , whose whole duty it is to obey : the commands of authority will warrant my obedience , my obedience will hallow , or at least excuse my action , and so secure me from sin , if not from error ; because i follow the best guide , and most probable direction i am capable of : and though i may mistake , my integrity shall preserve my innocence . and in all doubtful and disputable cases it is better to erre with authority , than be in the right against it ; not only , because the danger of a little error ( and so it is , if it be disputable ) is out-weighed by the importance of the great duty of obedience , that is more serviceable to the main ends of religion , than a more nice and exact way of acting in opposition to government ; but also , because they are to be supposed the fittest judges of what tends to the publick good , whose business it is to understand publick affairs : and therefore in all such matters , their commands are the supream rule of conscience , as being more competent judges of publick concerns , than mens own private perswasions ; and so must have a superior authority over them , and bind them to yield and submit to their determinations . and , if we take away this condescension of our private consciences to publick authority , we immediately dissolve all government ; for in case of dissention , unless we submit our perswasions to their commands , their commands must submit to our perswasions . and then , let any man tell me , wherein consists the power of princes , when it may be controlled by every subjects opinion ? and what can follow , but perfect disorder and confusion , when every man will be governed by nothing but his own conceits ? and if subjects may be allowed to dispute the prudence and convenience of all laws , government would be but a weak and helpless thing , and princes would command at the will and pleasure of their subjects . and , therefore people are never curious in their exceptions against any publick laws , unless in matters of religion ; and , in that case they study for reasons to disobey , because it gratifies their pride & vanity , to seem more knowing than their governours in that part of wisdom , that they think most valuable . self-conceit and spiritual pride are strange temptations to disobedience ; and , were there not something of this in it , men would find out other commands more liable to their exceptions . for how seldom is it , that any wars are commenced upon just and warrantable grounds ? and yet , how few are they , that take upon them to judge their lawfulness ? all men here think their princes command a sufficient warrant to serve him , and satisfie themselves in this , that , in case the cause prove to be unjust , the fault liesentirely upon him that commands , and not at all on him who has nothing to do but obey . and if it were otherwise , that no subject were bound to take up arms till himself had approved the justness of the cause , commonwealths must be bravely secured , and their safety must lie at the mercy of every humorsome and pragmatical fellow . and yet to this piece of arrogance do men tempt themselves , when they affect to be thought more godly than their neighbors . it is a gallant thing to understand religion better than their superiors , and to pity their ignorance in the great mysteries of the gospel , and by seeming to compassionate their weakness , to despise their authority . but if princes will suffer themselves to be controul'd by the pride and insolence of these contentious zealots , they do but tempt them to slight both their persons , and their government ; and if they will endure to be checked in their laws spiritual , and government of the church , by every systematical theologue , ( and most , not to say the best , of our adversaries are little better ) they may as well bear , to see themselves affronted in their laws civil , and government of the state by every village-attorney , and solicitor . well then , all men that are in a state of government are bound , in all matters doubtful and disputable , to submit the dictates of private conscience to the determinations of publick authority . nor does this oblige any man to act against the dictates of his own conscience , but only , by altering the case , alters his perswasions , i.e. though every man , considered absolutely , and by himself , be bound to follow his own private judgment ; yet when he is considered as the member of a society , then must be govern'd , then he must of necessity be bound to submit his own private thoughts to publick determinations . and it is the dictate of every mans conscience , that is not turbulent and seditious , that it ought in all things that are not of a great & apparent necessity , whatever its own private judgment of them is , to acquiesce in the determinations of its governors , in order to publick peace and unity . for unless this be done , there can be nothing but eternal disorders and confusions in the church ; in that it is utterly impossible that all men should have the same apprehensions of things , and ( considering the tempers and passions of mankind ) as impossible , that they should not pursue their differences and controversies with too much heat & vehemence : and therefore unless whatever their own judgments and apprehensions be , they are bound in all such cases to acquiesce in the decisions and determinations of the governors of the church , or common-wealth , in order to its peace and setlement , there can be no possible way of avoiding endless squabbles and confusions . and unless this be a fundamental rule & dictate of every mans conscience , that as he is bound in all doubtful cases to follow the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or the best result of his own private perswasions , where he neither has , nor is obliged to have , any other guide or rule of his actions ; so he is bound to forego them all ( provided his plain and necessary duty be secured ) out of obedience to authority , and in order to the due government of the society ; there never can be any peace or setlement in any church or common-wealth in the world . and every conscience that is not thus perswaded , is upon that account to be reckoned as seditious and unpeaceable , and so to be treated accordingly . sect. 7. he that with an implicite faith and confidence , resigns up his own reason to any superior on earth in all things , is a fool ; and he is as great a fool , ( to say no worse ) that will do it in nothing : for as all men are immediately subject to god alone , in matters of indispensable duty , ( that are not at all concern'd in our present dispute ) so are they , in all other things , to condescend to the decrees and determinations of their lawful superiors . neither is this , to put men upon that supream folly of renouncing the use and guidance of their own reasons out of obedience to any mans infallibility . for by reason we mean nothing but , the mind of man making use of the wisest and most prudential methods , to guid it self in all its actions ; and therefore it is not confined to any sort of maxims and principles in philosophy , but it extends it self to any knowledge that may be gained by prudence , experience , and observation . and hence right reason , when it is imploy'd about the actions of men , is nothing else but prudence and discretion : now the reason of any wise and sober man will tell him , that it is most prudent , discreet , and reasonable , to forego his own private perswasions in things doubtful and disputable , out of obedience to his lawful superiours ; because , without this the world can never be governed . and supposing mens judgments and understandings to be never so much above the iurisdiction of all humane authority , and that no man can be bound to submit his reason to any thing but the commands of god ; yet every man ows at least so much civility to the will of his prince , and the peace of his country , as to bring himself to a compliance and submission to the publick judgment , rather than to disturb the publick peace , for the gratification of his own fancy and opinion . which is no enslaving of his reason to any mans usurpation over his faith and conscience , but only a bringing it to a modest compliance , in order to the common interests of humane society : and if it be not a duty of subjection , yet it is one of peaceableness ; and if it be not grounded upon our obligations to the authority it self , yet it is most clearly derived from an higher obligation , that all men are under , to advance the welfare of mankind , and more particularly of that society they live in , that is antecedent to those of government , which is instituted only in order to the common good : and therefore , though our duty in such cases could not be deduced from our obligation to any humane authority , yet it clearly arises from that duty of charity we owe to our fellow creatures . and though we are not to submit our vnderstandings to any humane power , yet we are to the first and fundamental laws of charity : which being one of the greatest duties of mankind , it is but reasonable to forego all more private and inferior obligations , when they stand in competition with it . and thus st. paul , notwithstanding he declaimed with so much vehemence against the observation of the judaical rites and ceremonies , never scrupled to use them , as oft as it was serviceable to the advancement of the christian religion , and by consequence the good of mankind . and all i would perswade men to , is only that they would do as much out of duty , as st. paul did out of civility ; that as he complied with the apprehensions of the jews , retaining his own private judgment to himself , for the greater advantage of religion ; so they would , whatever their own perswasions are of some things not clearly and absolutely sinful , comply with the determinations of their governours , when it is conducive to the nobler ends of publick peace and tranquillity : a thing in it self so good and so necessary , that there are very few actions , that it will not render virtuous , whatever they are in themselves , whenever they happen to be useful and instrumental to its attainment . and therefore in all matters ( that are no indispensable duties of religion ) he , that acts cross to the commands of authority , has no sense either of the great ends of order and government , or great duties of humanity , modest , peaceableness , meekness , and civility , i. e. he is a proud and factious person ; and has no other motive so to do , but the pleasure of being peevish and disobedient . in fine , there is a vast difference between liberty , and authority of conscience ; the former consists in the freedom of a mans own judgment , and of this no magistrate can deprive us , in that he cannot tie up any mans understanding from judging of things as himself pleaseth : but as for the latter , that consists in the power over mens outward actions , and this , as far as it concerns all publick affairs , every man does , and of necessity must pass away to the rulers of that society he lives in : because ( though i have said it often enough already , yet too often i cannot say it , in that it is the main key of the controversie , and yet but little , if at all regarded by our adversaries ) the very nature of government consists in nothing else but a power of command over mens actions ; and therefore unless all men grant it away to their governours , they live not under government , but in a state of anarchy : every man will be prince and monarch to himself , and as free from all commands , as if he lived out of all society ; seeing only himself shall have any real dominion over his own actions , and his governours shall not have power to command him any thing , but what himself first thinks fit to do : and i hope i need not to prove , that this is a plain dissolution of all government . so that when men will be the absolute masters of their own actions , it is not the freedom of conscience , but its power and sovereignty , for which they contend ; they will endure none to rule over them but themselves , and force princes to submit their laws to their saucy and imperious humour : and it is this they mean by their pretence to a tender conscience , i. e. a conscience that scruples to be subject to government , that will in spight of all publick laws be entirely at its own liberty , that will not submit it self to any rule but its own private perswasions , that affects to be nice and squeamish against all the commands of its superiours , and loves to censure them upon the lightest and most slender presumptions , and that will not yield up any thing of its own phantastick humour to its princes will , or the churches peace , i. e. in effect , the tenderness of their consciences ( for which , forsooth , they must be born with ) consists in nothing else but their being the greatest and most notorious hereticks . for the rankest sort of heresie is nothing but the product of a peevish and contentious spirit ; and an heretick is one that delights in quarrels and factions ; whence erasmus renders s. pauls 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sectarum author , a man that loves to be the leader of a party : it is peevishness and obstinacy of will that turns small errors into great heresies . pride and passion , and whatsoever can make an opinion vicious , are its fundamental ingredients , and give it its essential formality . this vice lies not so much in the opinions , as in the tempers of men , it is a stubborn and refractory disposition of mind , or a peremptoriness in a mans own conceptions ; and therefore it is by saint paul reckon'd among the fruits of the flesh , as being a kind of brutish peevishness , that is directly opposed to that lenity and yieldingness of mind , that is one of the choicest fruits of the spirit ; whence he advises not to confute , but to admonish such an one , i. e. that is quarrelsome and boisterous for every trifle , and every fancy , because through pride and perversness he is uncapable of instruction ; and therefore can only be advised , and not disputed into sobriety . or ( to use the phrase of saint paul ) he is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a fellow that is troublesome and contentious , especially about the external rites and usages of the church . and such a malapert non-conformist he supposes disputing in the church of corinth , that their women ought , contrary to their received custom , to be uncovered at divine service : but he takes him up with this short and peremptory answer , if any man seem to be contentious , we have no such custom , neither the churches of god , i. e. in things neither morally good nor evil ( as few external rites are ) the practice of the church is the warrant of their lawfulness , and reason of their decency ; and that is satisfaction enough to any sober and peaceable mind : and he that shall refractorily persist to controul it , must be treated as a disturber of the peace , i. e. pitied and punished , as are all other turbulent and seditious persons . when mens consciences are so squeamish or so humorsome , as that they will rise against the customs and injunctions of the church they live in , she must scourge them into order , and chastise them , not so much for their fond perswasion , as for their troublesome peevishness . and this use of the churches rods and censures , is so absolutely necessary , that it is the only effectual way to preserve her from factions and contentions ; not only because upon this sort of men softer methods can make no impressions , but also because , if we remove the limits and boundaries of discipline , there will be no end of the follies and frenzies of brain-sick people : and when they are once let loose , who then can set bounds to the wildnesses of godly madness ? for this we have too clear a proof in the frantick practices of our modern sectaries , who , when they had inflamed their little zeal against the ceremonial constitutions of our church , ran themselves into all manner of wild and extravagant gestures : they measured the simplicity of christs worship by its opposition to all the rules of decency ; all institutions of order were unwarrantable inventions and traditions of men ; all custom was superstition , and all discipline was popish and antichristian . novelty , how uncouth and fantastick soever , was their only rule of decency ; and every sect distinguished it self from all others , by some affected and new-fangled singularity . and from hence it is , that it is so absolutely necessary , that governors injoin matters of no great moment , and consequence in themselves , thereby to avoid the evils that would naturally attend upon their being not injoined ; so that , when they are determined , though perhaps they are not of any great use to the commonwealth in themselves , yet they have at least this considerable usefulness , as to prevent many great mischiefs , that would probably follow from their being not determined : and therefore the goodness of all such laws is to be valued , not so much by the nature of the things that the law commands , as by the mischiefs and evil effects , that it prevents or redresses . and thus the main decency of order and uniformity in divine worship lies not so properly in the positive use of the rites themselves , as in the prevention of all the indecencies of confusion ; which could never be avoided , if there were not some peculiar rites positively determined . so that the law we see may be absolutely necessary , when the thing it commands is but meerly indifferent ; because some things necessary cannot be obtained , but by some things indifferent : as in our present case , there is an absolute necessity there should be order and decency in publick worship , but order and decency there cannot be without the determination of some indifferent & particular circumstances ; because , if every man were left to his own fancy and humor , there could be no remedy against eternal follies and confusions : so that it is in general necessary that some circumstances be determined , though perhaps no one particular circumstance can be necessary ; yet when any one is singled out by authority , it gains as absolute a necessity , as if it were so antecedently ; because though the thing it self be indifferent , yet the order and decency of publick worship is not : which yet can never be provided for , but by determining either this or some other ceremony as perfectly indifferent and arbitrary . and now upon the result of these particulars , i leave it first to publick authority to consider , whether it be not a wonderfully wise piece of good nature , to be tender & indulgent to these poor tender consciences ? and then . i leave it to all the world to judge , whether ever any church or nation in the world has been so wofully disturbed upon such slender and frivolous pretences as ours ? and thus have i at length finished what i designed and undertook , i. e. i have proved the absolute necessity of governing mens consciences and perswasions in matters of religion , & the unavoidable dangers of tolerating , or keeping up religious differences ; have shewn , that there is not the least possibility of setling a nation , but by uniformity in religious worship ; that religion may , and must be governed by the same rules , as all other affairs & transactions of humane life ; and that nothing can do it but severe laws , nor they neither , unless severely executed . and so i submit it to the consideration of publick authority , and am but little doubtful of the approbation of all that are friends to peace and government . but whatever the event may prove to others , it is not a little satisfaction that i reap to my self , in reflecting upon that candor and integrity , i have used through the whole discourse : in that , as i have freely and impartially represented the most serious result of mine own thoughts ; so withal have i been not a little solicitous , not to baulk any thing material in the controversie ; have encountred all their most weighty and considerable objections , have prevented all manner of escapes and subterfuges , and have not waved any thing , because it was too hard to be answered ; though some things i have , because too easie . and upon review of the whole , i have confidence ( perhaps it may be boldness ) enough to challenge the reader , if he will but be as ingenuous as he ought , to be as severe as he will ; and in defiance to all enemies of peace and government , of what name or sect soever , to conclude all in the words of pilate to the turbulent iews , what i have written , i have written . finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a70888-e110 * vide continuation of the friendly debate , pag. 120 ▪ &c. notes for div a70888-e1010 socr. l. 5. praes . notes for div a70888-e7480 lib. 3. a treatise of church-government occasion'd by some letters lately printed concerning the same subject / by robert burscough ... burscough, robert, 1651-1709. 1692 approx. 443 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 165 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2008-09 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a30625 wing b6137 estc r2297 12691502 ocm 12691502 65847 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a30625) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 65847) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 346:13) a treatise of church-government occasion'd by some letters lately printed concerning the same subject / by robert burscough ... burscough, robert, 1651-1709. [3], xxxvii, [7], 270 p. printed for samuel smith ..., london : 1692. first ed. cf. dnb. errata: p. [1] (3rd pagination). reproduction of original in union theological seminary library, new york. marginal notes. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng burthogge, richard, 1638?-ca. 1700. -nature of church-government. church polity -early works to 1800. 2006-05 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2007-01 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-07 elspeth healey sampled and proofread 2007-07 elspeth healey text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion imprimatur . z. isham , r. p. d. henr. episc . lond. à sacris . feb. 4. 1691 / 2. a treatise of church-government : occasion'd by some letters lately printed concerning the same subject . by robert burscough , m. a. london , printed for samuel smith , at the prince's arms in st. paul's church-yard . 1692. the preface to the reader . an observing italian has given us an account of a transaction , which is not so well known amongst us , as many others of the like nature . he acquaints us , that in an assembly of catholicks , as he calls them , which were brought together by the late earl of bristol , a consultation was held concerning the fittest means of propagating their religion in this kingdom : and they agreed , that one of the most proper methods they could make use of for that purpose , was , to testifie a mighty zeal , and to make a great shew of friendship , for the non-conformists . whereupon , he tells us , they represented them as men of trade , whose sufferings would be prejudicial to the nation . they pretended to commiserate their condition , and declaim'd perpetually against persecution . and there were two things , he says , which they propos'd to themselves in this conduct . * the first , was to maintain the sectaries against the church of england ; hoping they might sooner destroy it by intestine divisions , and so more easily open a gate to popery . the second was , under a pretence of tolerating these sectaries , to stop the execution of the laws about religion , that their priests might meet with less opposition in advancing the religion of the church of rome . in pursuance of this design , as my author also informs us , they prevail'd with king charles the second to issue out his declaration for liberty of conscience ; which was recall'd by the interposition of the parliament : but the project , which was then so happily blafted by the parliament , reviv'd to amazement in the following reign , and the nation had the pain to see a jesuite made a privy counsellor and prime minister of state , and the protestant dissenters very deep in his interests , and warm under his influence ; to see these dissenters so liberally offering up their incense to the court , which was then labouring to inslave us to the pope ; and the court answering their devotion with many favors . for so it was , as every body knows : and when this alliance was confirm'd between them , hardly a week pass'd over our heads , which did not bring us fresh intelligence of their mutual endearments . what i have said of the dissenters , must not be understood of the whole body of them without exception : for to do them right , some of them were afflicted at the shameful confederacy in which their brethren were engaged : but neither in number , nor in zeal and diligence did they equal those that beheld our church in distress , with such eyes , as the children of edom look'd on jerusalem , in the day of her adversity , when they cry'd to the babylonians , rase it , rase it to the foundation . but it pleas'd god to disappoint their devices , so that their hands could not perform their enterprise : and one might then have thought , that the reflection on their actions , should have been such a mortification to them , as would have dispos'd them to an accommodation and union with those , from whom they had made an unreasonable separation ; and who were so willing to forget their former miscarriages , and to receive them with all imaginable tenderness . but they , on the contrary , have since appear'd more averse from the way of peace than ever . and it is observable , that the kindness of the papists , put them into a strange fit of complaisance , and was the cause , that either they employ'd their pens in the service of the church of rome , or not against it : but the obligations which they have receiv'd from the conformists , instead of abating , have inflam'd their rage , and given them encouragement to write abundance of books , such as they are , against the church of england . and this may shew , how dissatisfied they remain in their present circumstances , and that as long as we live with them , and not under them , we are like to hear of their complaints . when my adversary , who is of their number , and gave occasion to this discourse , saw their politicks , and his own defeated , i had hopes that he would leave me to the retirement i affected , and give me no farther trouble with his disputes about church-government . i was in expectation , that he would either study to be quiet , or that i should meet with him amongst some late apologists . but when i least suspected it , he appears in print on the offensive side , and rudely attacking a whole community , he would persuade his readers * , that a separate national jurisdiction , such as he supposes that of our ecclesiastical rulers to be , cannot but weaken the jurisdiction of kings and other states , and is neither more nor less , but the very same thing that heretofore was found so burdensom under the papacy , and that made the best and wisest and greatest of our kings so uneasie . so that he lays it down , he says , as a maxim , that nothing can be of greater danger to any government , than a national hierarchy , that does not depend upon it , or is not in the measures and interests of it . fresh experience has learn'd us this . in which words , his design is to cast an odium on the conforming clergy , and to suggest , that they have been hurtful unto kings , and usurpt a jurisdiction that is inconsistent with the safety , and the rights of sovereignty . but if this cannot be prov'd against them , either from the nature of their jurisdiction it self , or from their national union , or matter of fact , on which he grounds the charge , he must be content to bear the infamy of a false accuser . by the jurisdiction of the clergy , which is first to be consider'd , either he understands , that which is spiritual , and such as the pastors of the church receiv'd from christ ; and to say that this hath no limits , and is pernicious to the state , is not only to injure the truth , but to cast a reproach upon our lord himself : or else he means their temporal authority , with which they have been legally vested by sovereign princes , and then he knows that he hath falsly call'd it independent , unboundable and uncontrollable ‖ : he knows it is false , that this is neither more nor less , but the very same supreme and absolute power which the popes claim'd and usurpt , and by which they made our kings so uneasie : and i leave him to answer the convictions of his own conscience , for the wrong he hath done the reformation by so odious a reflexion . another thing on which he grounds his censure of the clergy , is their national union ; and he argues , that this , together with the independence which he ascribes to them , must needs render them very dangerous , as putting them into a condition of being made a powerful faction , and easie to be practis'd upon ; and inabling the heads of the faction to convey malignity to all their subordinates , and these to the people * . and thus , when the abolishing of the episcopal government with all its dependences , root and branch , was in agitation , mr. nathaniel fiennes objected ‖ against the bishops , that by their power over other ministers , who had an influence upon the people , they might mould them both according to their own wills ; and having put out our eyes , says he , as the philistins did sampson 's , they may afterwards make us grind , and reduce us to what slavery they please . a dreadful thing indeed , had there been any foundation for the apprehension of it . but if such fantômes as may at any time be rais'd by art or the strength of imagination , and have nothing in them of substance or reality , be sufficient to disquiet us , we are like to enjoy but little rest . and to come nearer to the purpose ; if a meer possibility of doing hurt , be so dangerous and formidable to princes , this would be enough to create in them frightful idea's of their guards and their armies , and of all that are about them , and render them at last , like pashur , a terror to themselves . he could not but see , that a meer capacity in the clergy of conveying malignity , was not sufficient to make them enemies to the state ; and he pretends , that they have been actually guilty of a most notorious defection from their duty to the civil magistrate , and that it has been found by experience , not only that there never was , but that there never can be in the world , a thing more dangerous to any government , than the national hierarchy . an accusation that sounds very harsh , and runs high , not against a few single persons only , but a considerable society . but he hath not told us , in what instance they were liable to it , or when it was they became so criminal . it is certain , that in the reign of queen elizabeth , they could not deserve so hateful a character . for jealous as she was of her glory , she could not find , that it was eclips'd by them . but she did perceive , how necessary it was , to check and repress the attempts against them , and was sensible , as mr. camden acquaints us * that her own authority was struck at through the sides of the bishops . as this admirable princess penetrated into the secrets of foreign courts , so she perfectly understood the interests of her own kingdoms : and if any would know , what she thought of some fiery zealots of those times , who spent their heats in opposing episcopacy and the liturgy , it may be seen in serjeant puckering's speech , recorded by sr. william dugdale ‖ , for it is made by her command . her successor king james could never discover , that nothing could be more dangerous to him , than the national hierarchy . he always believ'd , that episcopacy was of divine institution : and as he found it establish'd here , to his great satisfaction ; so he never saw cause to repent of his defence of it , and the privileges annex'd to it . how well he approv'd the constitution of the church of england , may appear from hence , that in his speech in the star-chamber he affirm'd , * that of any church that ever he read or knew of , present or past , he thought in his conscience , this was the most pure , and nearest the primitive and apostolical church in doctrine and discipline , and the sureliest founded on the word of god of any church in christendom . at the same time he complain'd of the contempt that was cast on a church so reform'd , and the governours thereof ; and looking on it as a sign of impending judgments , he says , god will not bless us and our laws , if we do not reverence and obey gods law , which cannot be , except the interpreters of it be respected and reverenced . such a regard he had for them , from a principle of religion ; and their fidelity to him was answerable to it ; and contributed not a little to the safety of his person , the support of the throne , and the welfare of the nation . but as for the many dangers to which he was expos'd , they arose from other quarters . they either proceeded from the conspiracies of papists , whose principles he examin'd and confuted ‖ , that neither the subversion of states , nor the murthers of kings , should have free passage in the world , for want of timely advertisement ; or from the practices of another sort of persons , whom he calls * the very pests in the church and common-wealth ; and by whom , as he declares to all christian monarchs , free princes and states , he was persecuted , not from his birth only , but four months before his birth . in the reign of king charles the first , the clergy were not wanting in their demonstrations of loyalty , as we all know , and they felt . yet i grant , that some had discours'd before his majesty , that episcopacy , as claim'd and exercis'd within this realm , was not a little derogatory to the regal authority , as well in the point of supremacy , as prerogative ; in the one , by claiming the function as by a divine right ; in the other , by exercising the jurisdiction in their own names : but on that occasion , he told dr. sanderson , that he did not believe , the church-government , as by law establish'd , was in either of the aforesaid respects , or any other way prejudicial to his crown . nevertheless he requir'd that learned man , from whom i borrow'd this relation , to draw up an answer to those two objections , for the satisfaction of others ; which he did accordingly : and i shall only crave leave , to transcribe from him the following words , which he uses near the conclusion of his treatise ‖ , by this time , says he , i doubt not , all that are not wilfully blind , do see and understand by sad experience , that it had been far better both with king and kingdom , than now it is , or is like to be in haste , if the enemies of episcopacy had meant no worse to the king and his crown , than the bishops and those that favour'd them did . i shall not further exercise your patience , in going about to prove , that the clergy were faithful to the crown in the reign of king charles the second . you may well enough remember what king james the second acknowledged * , that the church of england had been eminently loyal in the defence of his father , and support of his brother in the worst of times . but that our church-men have since revolted from their principles , which were then said to be for monarchy , i do not understand . nor was our author willing in plain terms to inform us , when it was that they became such examples of malignity , lest the calumny might easily be detected . yet , obscure as he is , he hath left us a key to his meaning : for he intimates , that they have been found to be dangerous by fresh experience , when they were not in the measures and interests of the government , respecting doubtless the late times , before the great revolution . and so the secret comes out , which was at the bottom , and rais'd his indignation . in the opinion you see of this gentleman , the clergy were then so very dangerous , when with so much courage they threw themselvs in the breach that was made by the dispensing power , and were asserting and labouring to preserve our laws and liberties , which others were offering up in sacrifice : they were then conveying their malignity to the people , when in their books and sermons , they defended the cause of the reformation with so much success , that popery lay gasping before them in great agonies , notwithstanding the cordials that were administred to it by other hands . and then indeed the king was uneasie , because his endeavours , to establish his religion , did not make the impressions he desir'd : and the jesuits and their associats were uneasie , because their measures were broken , and their expectation of extirpating the northern heresie defeated : and such of the dissenters , as had been assisting and pushing them on in works of darkness , were uneasie at the reproach they had brought upon themselves by their ill conduct . but in the rest of the nation there appear'd a general satisfaction , to see truth prevailing by lawful methods , against the errors of the church of rome , when they were cover'd with a powerful protection . one may wonder , what it is that induced our author to lead our thoughts to the transactions of those times ; since it would be more for his reputation , could he bury them in oblivion , or cover them with a veil of darkness . but it seems , he cannot dissemble how much he was affected with the management of affairs , when himself was in the interests and measures of the government , and when in a pamphlet intitled , prudential reasons for repealing the penal laws against all recusants , &c. penn'd by a protestant person of quality , he declar'd to the world , that king james the second had a clearer prospect of his own and the kingdoms interest , than any of his royal predecessors ever had , and pursu'd it with that conduct and vigour , which did correspond with the miracles that preserv'd the crown for him , and him for the crown , and for a glory greater than that of wearing crowns , to wit , to be the restorer of religion to liberty and freedom of exercise . and with such exquisite and servile flattery , was that unfortunate prince encouraged in the large steps he made to his ruine . that i have imputed to my adversary the harangue which i have quoted from the prudential reasons , you will not think strange , when i have told you , that sometime since i received several controversial letters , written by the hand of a non-conformist preacher , who subscrib'd them in his own name , and profess'd and persuaded his easie followers , that they were his own : but he could not deny , when the charge was lay'd before him , that they were compos'd by the protestant person of quality , as he is pleas'd to call himself , who hath lately publish'd some part of them , to which this treatise contains an answer . but how his amanuensis resents this usage , or contented he is to be stript of his borrowed plumes , and left naked to the pity or derision of spectators , as they are variously affected , i pretend not to discover . some may think he hath had very hard measure , and that he had much better never have enjoy'd the glory of his masters labours , than be depriv'd of it in such a manner ; but that i leave to be adjusted between themselves . and i had not said thus much of their combination , but out of great compassion to a deluded people , that i may let them see , if they do not wilfully shut their eyes on what it is they grounded their insolent boasting ; by what impostures they have been abus'd , and by what arts they have been engaged and encourag'd in their schism . here it may be fit to take notice , that since our author appear'd in open light , his style differs much from what it was before : for many pages of his manuscript papers , which i have by me , are fill'd with bitter invectives against me , and other conformists ; but it is in some measure true , what he now says , that his printed letters are refin'd from personal reflexions . he thought , it seems , that scurrility was suitable enough to the part he acted , when he sustain'd the person of another , and was asham'd of it , when he laid aside his disguise . yet since he shews no repentance for his former provocations , nor forbears to strike at the whole body of the conforming clergy , some may object , that i have handled him with an excess of tenderness . but i wish no greater defects may be found in this discourse , than that i have err'd on the side of lenity , and i shall not be much concern'd at this exception . nevertheless my adversary may be assur'd , that such a conduct as his must needs have awaken'd the observation of many , and i cannot promise , that others will spare him , as i have done ; or that he may not receive such correction from a severer hand , as he is not stoick enough to bear . for my part , i could have been content , if he had refin'd away none of his personal reflexions . i was willing enough that the world should have seen with what an impotent fury i have been assaulted by him , and i should have been glad to have been eas'd of the fatigue of writing and giving a new turn to the answers i had sent him . but for his own sake , i congratulate to him any tendency towards a calmness of thought , and still retain for him the regard that is due to an intelligent person , of a sharp wit , great reading and indefatigable industry . i could say more to his advantage , but that i am afraid to indulge an humour in him that is too predominant ; and what that is , you may perceive from the admonition he gave me in his letter of feb. 9. that he and i are never like to answer one anothers expectation , so long as he looks for strength and closeness in my discourses , or i think , to find weakness or loosness in his . which shews , that he is a man of a peculiar temper , and distinguish'd by such an air of assurance as is not common . not but that another might have treated me with as much contempt ; but he was the man of the world , that thought , nothing could come from him that is weak or loose . finding him in this condition , i thought it not unfit to give him such touches , as might make him sensible , that he is a mortal wight and of humane race : and having convinc'd him by the method i propos'd , that he was not infallible ; he now confesses some of his mistakes . yet there are some remains of his former distemper still hanging on him . for says he to his noble friends * , i present you in these following letters the true idea ( as i take it ) of church-government , which could it be receiv'd by all others with the same degree of candor , i assure my self it shall by you , would be of infinite advantage to end these fatal controversies that for many ages have perplexed , and in this last , almost destroyed the church . i have not the honour to be acquainted with those gentlemen , to whom he dedicates his book : but if i am not mistaken in their character , they are of more judgment , than to believe , that , if others were as candid as themselves , this idea , which he so much magnifies , would be of infinite advantage . they will rather perceive , that it would not otherwise put an end to the fatal controversies that have perplext the church , than poison would cure diseases , that is , by the death of the patients . for 't is evident , that the design of it , is to abrogate the authority which christ bestow'd on his ecclesiastical officers ; and consequently our author , instead of intitling his book , the nature of church-government freely discussed , might more fitly have call'd it , a treatise of church-anarchy or church-confusion . i know not whether the applause of his performances be continued to him in his own person , which he first receiv'd by proxy , from the neighbouring dissenters . but sure i am that he contradicts the avowed principles of their party , and the sense of their writers . he contends , that the pastors of the church have no authority , but what they derive from the state. he makes church-government a meer prudential thing and alterable in the form of it , according to the various forms of the civil government , and argues , that it ought to take its model from the appointment of the civil magistrate : whereas their other writers tell us , that a spiritual extraction of a legitimate ecclesiastical power cannot be made from a secular root * ; that the introduction of humane authority into the rule of the church of christ in any kind , destroyeth the nature of it ‖ ; that there is but one form of government laid down in the word , and that unchangeable * , and that to think , church-government must be fram'd according to the common-wealth , or civil government , is as if one should fashion his house according to his hangings ‖ . but that his friends may not resent the matter too highly , when they find how they have been impos'd on by him , i can assure them , that in contradicting their authors , he uses them no worse , than he does himself . for having formerly concluded from 2 thess . 2.15 . that it was the duty of christians , to preserve the same government in the churches after the apostles days , that was appointed and practis'd in them ; he now comes to prove , that , let the government in those days be what it will , it is but a prudential and ambulatory thing , and lyable to changes according to the difference of times and occasions . and that his friends may not for the future expect to find him any more fix'd or steady , he professes in his epistle dedicatory , that he hath nothing of fondness in him for any opinions . he hath as little fondness in him for the authority of the apostles , as he hath for his own opinions . for however he takes diocesan prelacy to be a degeneracy or defection from an apostolical constitution , yet he boasts of his vindication of it , upon prudential grounds * : he represents episcopacy as a corruption , and yet he supposes , that it is of divine right , when it is by law established ‖ . the truth is , he hath confusedly jumbl'd together the notions of the dissenters , and the principles of hobbes and erastus ; and with this odd kind of mixture , he thinks himself sufficiently qualified to heal the breaches of christendom . before him , one peter cornelius van zurick-zee set up for a reconciler general ; and his project for union was * , that in every city , and in every county , there should be appointed a general meeting-place , in which the christians of all persuasions should be requir'd to assemble together , that they might hear the scriptures read , and afterwards talk about them , and give their interpretations of them according to their various sentiments . of this device he had such a conceit , that leaving his family and native country ‖ , he cross'd the seas , that he might reveal it in england ; expecting that here it would receive a kind entertainment , and from hence break forth as a light into all other countries and nations * . but whether this man , or the free discusser hath furnish'd us with a better plan of an universal peace ; or whether prudential reason hath been more happy , than a freak of enthusiasm , in proposing a method of union , or scheme of ecclesiastical polity , i leave you to determine . in the mean time , i am of opinion , that the way of governing churches , which is agreeable to the will of god , was not to be invented or first discover'd fifteen or sixteen hundred years after the birth of our saviour . i suppose a thing of such use must needs have been known to the primitive christians : and they generally believ'd , 1. that our saviour christ , who was the founder of church-government , bestow'd on his officers such authority , as qualified them for the administration of it . 2. that this government was episcopal from the beginning . on these two things i have chiefly insisted in this discourse , but far more copiously on the last , against which , i met with the greatest opposition : by which opposition , i do not only mean , that which hath been made by my adversary ; for i have considerd the utmost that i could find objected on that side . and upon the whole i am satisfied , that it requires no great abilities to defend episcopacy ; and that it proceeds from the goodness of the cause , that the more learned the opposers of it are , the more ready have they been to let fall such things as may serve for the vindication of it , and answer their own objections . this was the case of blondel and salmasius , but more particularly of the last , who hath so many things that favour my hypothesis , that of all modern authors none has been more useful to me , than walo messalinus . but all the assistance i have receiv'd from him , has been only to confirm the notions which i had before grounded on the holy scriptures , & the testimony of the ancients : from which i have prov'd , that episcopacy was of divine institution ; and that meer presbyters were generally subordinate to superior pastors in the apostles days , and afterwards in the best and purest ages : and if so , there can be no doubt concerning the succeeding times , or of the truth of what was affirm'd by the lord falkland in a warm speech which he made against some of the bishops * , that the order of the bishops hath always remain'd in the churches from christ to calvin . what i have said on this subject , fastens an imputation of novelty on the dissenters , but i cannot help it ; and they have no reason to be offended at it . for their own friends , the elders and messengers of the congregational churches , who met at the savoy * , confess ‖ , that it is true in respect of the publick and open profession , either of presbytery or independency , this nation hath been a stranger to each way , it 's possible , ever since it hath been christian . and i will adventure to add , that the nation may be well enough without them both , so long as it shall be christian ; it being now too late to try experiments of new models , and to establish such forms of government , as in the best ages , were never heard of in the world. when i had enquir'd into the original of church-government , and shew'd , that as it came out of the hands of christ and his apostles , and remain'd in the primitive times , it was , in the nature of it , spiritual ; and in form , episcopal ; i had thoughts to discourse particularly of the exercise of it in the administration of discipline , and the ordination of ministers ; as also of the extent of a bishops authority over many congregations ; and of the power of the church in a christian state ; and then to make some remarks on that mystery of iniquity that has been working amongst bigotted papists , and others , in opposition to episcopacy : but being interrupted by many avocations , and not being willing to swell this volume into too great a bulk , i have reserv'd those things , with some others , that may incidentally be consider'd , for a second part of this treatise . i doubt not , but some will be ready to say , that it had been much better to have let the whole work alone : for now , they think , it is not a time for controversies : i should think so too , and would our adversaries be of the same mind , and not drag us into the press by their importunity . but it may seem a little unreasonable , that a truce should be maintain'd only on one side : and i cannot imagine , that it is a time for us to lye open to acts of hostility , and not a time to guard our selves from them ; or that it is a time to cast reproach on an apostolical constitution of government , and not a time to defend it . i rather think , that it is high time to appear in vindication of it ; and that we cannot be unconcern'd spectators of the diligence , with which others endeavour to promote the interest of their several parties , unless we will declare to the world , that we are not influenced by any due sense of religion . indeed , if we are only in the communion of the church by law establish'd , at certain seasons , and with design to destroy it , or to serve a turn against it , then it is not strange , if we cannot endure to hear any thing in defence of it . but what is most astonishing , is , that persons should be found bearing the name of christian , and carrying on the works of darkness and treachery , of avarice and ambition , in the most solemn acts of worship , and the most sacred rites of our holy religion . yet is the number of them considerable ; and because it may not be fit to pass by them without notice , i shall here produce some part of the charge against them , as it is recited and address'd to them by a late writer . there are some things , says he * , that i will but lightly touch , though others of contrary sentiment will lay on load . one is , at which i am not a little abash'd , that though you , according to your declar'd principles and ordinary practice , are nonconformists and dissenters ; yet upon occasion , and to get into place and office of honor or profit , you will and can take any manner of tests that have of late been impos'd ; also that you can , on such occasions , take the sacrament according to the form and way of the church of england , though you never did before , nor perhaps will ever do the same again , except on the like occasion ; and although the making and forming of these tests , and the taking of the sacrament , were intended , and done on purpose to keep you , and such as you , out of office ; yet by these ways they have not been able to exclude you ; and they think , that nothing , though never so contrary to your principles , can be devis'd and made to keep you out , or to hold you in ; but that you will break all bounds , and leap over all hedges ; so that they are at a loss what to do with you , &c. my author who relates this to them as an objection of their adversaries , is himself a dissenter ; yet protests * that he knows not how to answer it in their behalf with truth and honesty . he confesses , that they make use of the same artifices , as the jesuits do in such cases : and he knows nothing , he tells them ‖ , that will more render them in the eyes of all , as men of flexible and profligate consciences . he also laments their hypocrisie , and breaks out into this exclamation * , o! the horrible scandal that comes from hence , &c. but i suppose , the example of these men hath nothing in it , that may prevail with us to abandon the vindication of a good cause ; their practices being such , as , if we have any thing of sincerity , we cannot think on without pain and detestation . errata . page 5. line 15. read averse . p. 6. l. 17. r. to bind and ab . p. 11. l. 6. marg . r. 18. p. 13. l. 29. r. the intention of the person . p. 39. l. 10. marg . r. c. 4. p. 44. l. 8. r. such , have . p. 49. l. 11. after high priest , add , and yet he could not have been constituted high priest . p. 54. l. 4. marg . r. successores reliquit . p. 54. l. 11. marg . r. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p. 63. l. 13. r. of all churches . l. 17. r. presided . p. 73. l. 8. r. munere annos . p. 80. l. 27. r. continuance . l. 28. dele might . p. 88. l. 2 , 3. marg . r. apostoli . p. 102. l. 26. r. and as . l. 28. r. more than . p. 118. l. 1. r. of an . p. 143. l. 6. r. were written . p. 162. l. 26. ( s ) this note should have been placed after city l. 24. and another added here to refer to the words of clemens . p. 170. l. 17. marg . r. c. 4. p. 179. l. 5. marg . r. ep. 54. p. 200. l. 2. marg . r. lib. 9. c. 5. p. 208. l. 14. marg . r. c. 32. p. 218. l. 7. marg . r. obnitente . p. 260. l. 12. r. is mop't . the contents of the chapters . chap. 1. jesus christ the founder of church-government . the apostles the first officers that he constituted . to them he gave no temporal authority , yet did communicate to them that which is spiritual . p. 1 chap. 2. the apostles stood related amongst themselves as equals , but to other ecclesiastical officers , particularly to the seventy disciples , and to presbyters , as superiors , they were bishops both in title & authority , p. 25 chap. 3. if the apostles were bishops , episcopacy is of a divine original . the objection against this , that the apostles were extraordinary officers , consider'd , p. 34 chap. 4. s. james was an apostle , and yet he was bishop of jerusalem , and constantly resided there , p. 60 chap. 5. the apostolate differs not in substance from the office of a bishop . it was design'd for continuance , p. 78 chap. 6. the title and office of apostles were communicated to many besides the twelve , p. 90 chap. 7. apostolical authority was communicated to timothy : who was bishop of ephesus . p. 104 chap. 8. apostolical authority was communicated to titus , who was bishop of crete , p. 132 chap. 9. apostolical authority was communicated to the angels mention'd revel . 1.20 . who were bishops of the asiatick churches , p. 144 chap. 10. objections against episcopacy , taken from the writings of the first century , consider'd , p. 164 chap. 11. after the apostles decease the churches were govern'd by single persons , who were distinguish'd by the name of bishops . p. 172 chap. 12. the bishops were successors of the apostles . p. 178 chap. 13. the bishops after the example of the apostles stood related amongst themselves as equals , but to other ecclesiastical officers as superiors . p. 190 chap. 14. after the apostles days there was no space of time , nor any country where christianity prevail'd , without episcopacy , p. 207 chap. 15. objections against episcopacy taken from the writings of the fathers , and some later authors examin'd , p. 215 chap. 16. prelacy is no degeneracy from an apostolical constitution . the pastours of the church that came next after the apostles did not conspire to deprave any form of government which was of divine appointment , p. 236 chap. 17. episcopacy cannot be thought a degeneracy from an apostolical constitution , if the testimony of the fathers may be admitted : their testimony vindicated , p. 250 chap. 18. the testimony of the fathers is necessary for the ascertaining to us the canon of the holy scripture : it is as cogent for the divine original of episcopacy , p. 264 a catalogue of books printed for , and sold by samuel smith , at the prince's arms in s. paul's church-yard , london , 1692. an enquiry after happiness , in several parts ; by the author of practical christianity , vol. 1. of the possibility of obtaining happiness : the second edition , corrected and enlarged , in octavo , 1692. price 3 s. 6. d. — of the true notion of humane life : or a second part of the enquiry after happiness , in octavo , 1690. price 2 s. 6 d. the wisdom of god manifested in the works of the creation : in two parts , viz. the heavenly bodies , elements , meteors , fossils , vegetables , animals , ( beasts , birds , fishes , and insects ) more particularly , in the body of the earth , its figure , motion and consistency , and in the admirable structure of the bodies of man and other animals ; as also in their generation , &c. by john ray , fellow of the royal society . the second edition , very much enlarged , printed in octavo , price 3 s. miscellaneous discourses concerning the dissolution and changes of the world ; wherein the primitive chaos and creation , the general deluge , fountains , formed stones , sea-shells found in the earth , subterraneous trees , mountains , earthquakes , vulcano's , the universal conflagration , and future state , are largly discussed and examined : by john ray , fellow of the royal society , in octavo , 1692. price 2 s. 6 d. the meditations of marcus aurelius antoninus the roman emperour , concerning himself : treating of a natural man's happiness : wherein it consisteth , and of the means to attain unto it . translated out of the original greek , with notes : by meric casaubon , d. d. the fifth edition : to which is added , the life of antoninus , with some select remarks upon the whole by monsieur and madam dacier , never before in english , in octavo , 1692. price 5 s. a treatise of church-government , address'd to the author of the letters concerning the same subject . chap. i. jesus christ the founder of church government . the apostles the first officers that he constituted . to them he gave no temporal authority , yet did communicate to them that which is spiritual . sir , since you have been pleas'd to declare to the world , what expectation you had , that i would give you a scheme of my thoughts concerning church-government , your readers have occasion enough to enquire , how you could meet with disappointment , when you had the papers before you , wherein i had largely handled that subject ; and whilst you pretend to have drawn the things from thence , which you endeavour to confute , and not from your own invention . the truth is , this address would have been unnecessary , had you fully related my sense of the matters in debate between us , as you found it express'd in my private letters : but the representations you have made of it are so very defective , that i think my self obliged to communicate to publick view the principles on which i proceeded , with a vindication of them . and i begin with what is evident enough , that our saviour christ , who is head of the church , was the founder of ecclesiastical government , and consequently it proceeded from a divine institution . the original of this government being known , we may the more easily gain a true idea of its nature : for that may best be discern'd , when we consider it in the greatest purity , as it came out of the hands of our lord , and was exercis'd by his apostles , who were the first ministers that he ordain'd . and upon enquiry we shall find , that , to qualifie them for the administration of it , he gave them no temporal jurisdiction , and yet did communicate to them spiritual authority : that amongst themselves they stood related as equals , but to other ecclesiastical officers , as superiors . and on these things all that i have to say of church-government will depend . an easie enquiry will inform us , that our saviour gave his apostles no temporal jurisdiction . for it is plain , that he did not send them to exercise any such dominion as was possess'd by the kings of the earth , or the lords of the gentiles . nor did he any where disingage them from subjection to the civil magistrate . he gave them commission to combate nothing but ignorance and vice ; and when he call'd them to resist unto blood , it was that of themselves , and not of other men . and according to the instructions they receiv'd , they taught and practis'd submission to secular princes , not only for wrath but conscience sake ; and in all their conduct nothing appear'd , that might give any just occasion of jealousie to the state , or create disturbance to the empire . our saviour said indeed , that when he was lifted up from the earth , he would draw all men unto him (a) . but these words , signifying what death he should die , (b) are far enough from the sense which jacobus de terano puts upon them : for that wretched paraphrast introduces our lord speaking after this manner , i will recover all the empires and kingdoms of the world , and take them from cesar and from kings and princes , by my souldiers the apostles . with such prodigious flattery , says marquardus freherus , (c) from whom i borrow'd that observation , the books of augustinus de ancona and other papal parasites are stuft ; and with such ornaments are the decretal epistles embellished . to these he might have added the annals of baronius , who , (d) amongst other things that occur in them of like nature , grounds the doctrine of deposing princes on that expression , arise peter , kill and eat . and accordingly that doctrine prevail'd by killing and devouring . it made its impressions with blood and violence ; but not without the assistance of much art , as may partly appear by this discourse of the cardinal prosper sanctacrucius with the french ambassador paul de foix in the presence of thuanus (e) : you compel me , sir , said the cardinal , in your favour , to reveal a mystery that hath been conceal'd with a profound veneration , which is , that this court uses an exquisite severity when there is occasion , and it may be done without danger : and when any man of great quality submits to it , the cause is prolong'd with abundance of delays till the fame thereof , and the terror of our name be spread over the world. this severity is so long successful , as it is tamely born , either through weakness or religious fear : but if a prince be held by neither , with caution and great dissimulation we depart from this rigor . this was an ingenuous confession , and it shews in what wretched condition they have been , who most of all dreaded the thunder of the vatican . that the popes and their creatures have infringed the prerogatives of princes , is evident beyond exception . and that others , who have seem'd very adverse from them , have notwithstanding in this imitated their example , appears also from many instances , and will not be deny'd , i suppose , by you , who have read spotswood's history of the church of scotland , and have no fondness for the presbyterian discipline . but whoever they are that take such measures , and invade and grasp into their hands the rights of the magistrate , whether they pretend to it in order to things spiritual , or for the advancement of the scepter of christ , they make the gospel a carnal thing , and do infinite dishonour to christianity by their usurpations . this may be sufficient to let you see , that the sentiments i have of ecclesiastical government intrench not on the temporal : and that , when you tell me , the sword knows no other edge , but what the magistrate gives it , it makes nothing against me , who am of opinion , that the church hath no secular power , but what is deriv'd from secular princes , and what may be limited or extended by them . nevertheless i affirm in the next place , that our saviour communicated some power to his church ; and particularly , that he conferr'd on his apostles such authority as secular princes could not bestow . for he gave them (f) the keys of the kingdom of heaven : he gave them commission to absolve offenders , and an assurance that their sentence should be ratified . whose soever sins , said he , ye remit , they are remitted unto them ; and whose soever sins ye retain , they are retained . after his ascension , they acted as his representatives , and by the power they received from him , they constituted other officers to be governours of churches ; and to them they convey'd some authority . for authority is implied in the titles (g) that are attributed to them in the scripture , and in different degrees it belongs to all ecclesiastical rulers . obey them that have the rule over you , says the author of the epistle to the hebrews , and submit your selves , for they watch for your souls , heb. 13.17 . and clemens romanus (h) admonishes those who had laid the foundation of the schism at corinth , to be subject to their presbyters , to be contrite and penitent for their former miscarriages , to lay aside their arrogant speeches , and to learn submission ; since it were better , as he tells them , that they should be little in the fold of christ , than to swell with pride , and fall from their hopes in him . the authority that has been assigned to the apostles and other pastors of the church , is commonly called spiritual , and not unfitly ; for it is exercis'd in spiritual matters , and relates to the affairs of another world. it does not touch or hurt the body , or life , or estate of an offender , but by accident . it may be assisted by the coercive power of the magistrate , but that is not essential to it . the administration of it is sometimes rendred more easie by the favour of princes , and sometimes more difficult by their opposition ; but it is the same in it self under those various circumstances . it has its proper effects in the times of persecution , as well as in those that are serene and calm ; and it must be granted , that obedience is always due to it under the pain of god's displeasure ; unless one will say , that his precepts may be broken without danger , or that ecclesiastical government is one of the most precarious useless things in the world. before i dismiss this subject , it may be fit to take notice of the attempts against ecclesiastical authority that have been made by a late writer (i) , who is suppos'd by some to be , what he thought himself , a man of demonstration . you are no stranger to his opinions , amongst which this is one , that christ himself had not , nor hath in this world any regal or governing power (k) . our saviour was sent , says he , to persuade the jews to return to , and to invite the gentiles to receive the kingdom of the father , but not to reign in majesty , no not as his fathers lieutenant , till the day of judgment . and from hence he gathers , that no obedience to his officers can be requir'd . for this purpose he produces these words of christ , my kingdom is not of this world : (l) but he certainly mistakes their sense , as the manichees did before him : and the answer may be apply'd to him , which was given to them by theophylact (m) , who observes , that it is said indeed , my kingdom is not of this world , and again , it is not from hence . but it is not said , my kingdom is not in this world , or it is not here . the kingdom of christ is not from the earth as its cause , nor is it earthly in its nature . yet is the earth part of his empire , and he turns about the affairs of it at his pleasure . in his state of humiliation , he had power on earth to forgive sins (n) . and then it was that he said to his disciples , ye call me master and lord , and ye say well , for so i am (o) . after his resurrection he declar'd , that all power was given to him in heaven and in earth (p) . and so far is it from being true , that he reigns not till the day of judgment , that the apostle says expresly , he must reign till he hath put all his enemies under his feet (q) . if our saviour had all power , he might delegate some part of it to his apostles ; and that he did so , appears from what has been said ; and it may be confirm'd from the promise which he made to them , that they should sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of israel (r) . this place , i know , has been made use of to prove , that no ministers of christ have any ruling power , till he comes to judgment (s) . but one that attentively considers , that the jurisdiction which is represented by sitting on thrones , commences not with his coming in glory , but with his entring into it , or being (t) in it , may find reason to think , he design'd to intimate to his apostles , in such terms as they could then receive it , that when he was departed from them , and sate down at the right hand of the father , they should act as the supreme visible governours of the church , which is the mystical israel . another objection which the author of the leviathan (u) brings against ecclesiastical authority , is taken from our saviour's forbidding his followers , to be called masters (w) : but that proves too much or nothing ; for in what sense they might not assume the title of masters , in that it may not be attributed to any man upon earth , but belongs to christ . the want of it therefore would abrogate all humane authority , or none at all . the like may be said of his argument , which he grounds on these words of s. paul , not that we have dominion over your faith (x) : for , no man in the world hath any such dominion , as implies a right to coin new articles of religion , or to impose things to be believ'd , as the doctrine of god , which he hath no where reveal'd . this is what was disclaim'd by the great justinian (y) , and ought to be so by all other princes . since therefore there is a want of that dominion equally in all men , if such a defect were inconsistent with authority , it would destroy that of the civil magistrate , or render it a mere usurpation . but the objector assigns to supreme magistrates such authority , that by it , he says , all sorts of doctrine are to be approved or rejected (z) : and according to him , those magistrates must be obey'd , though they command their subjects to profess an assent to the alcoran , or to condemn the gospel of christ , or to worship idols . and for this he pleads from the example of naaman the syrian (a) who bowed himself in the house of rimmon , (b) when his master leaned upon his hand : but how impertinently he makes use of that instance , others have demonstrated : and i shall only note , that it is not strange , that a person who shews such an enmity to religion and to christianity in particular , should tell us , (c) that temporal and spiritual government , are but two words brought into the world , to make men see double , and mistake their lawful sovereign . whosoever reads and believes the scripture cannot but approve what he derides ; so manifest it is from thence , that a government distinct from the temporal was establish'd by our lord himself . the apostles were constituted by him the first rulers of his church , but without any commission from the civil magistrate . they laid their commands (d) on the christian converts , and expected an obedience to their orders : and we must believe they had power to do this from christ , notwithstanding this man so confidently denies (e) , that he left them any such authority . they asserted the right he gave them to preach , notwithstanding the prohibitions and menaces of the officers of state (f) ; and this was so reasonable , that they appeal'd to their enemies to be judges of it . without asking leave of any secular powers , they planted churches : they form'd societies under their proper rulers , and did not teach them to see double , when they requir'd them to honour and obey those that presided over them in the lord (g) . such spiritual governours remain'd after the decease of the apostles , when they were so far from receiving their office , or any support and assistance in the discharge of it , from temporal princes , that they were hated and persecuted by them . yet they proceeded in their work , and kept up their discipline . and it is certain , that before the empire was christian , the church was govern'd by its proper officers , as a society distinct from the state , and independent on it ; yet were not the christians then in danger of mistaking their lawful sovereign . you must excuse me , sir , that i have been so long detain'd by the exceptions of an author of no good fame . it is from him that you have taken some of your principles , and you are not neglected , when they are consider'd as i find them in the original . you follow the leviathan exactly , where you tell me , that the apostleship itself was not a magistracy , but a ministry (h) . for your meaning is not , that the apostles had no secular power , about which there was no dispute ; but as it is manifest from your own words , that they had no authority at all , unless it was to preach the gospel : and for this you quote 2 cor. 4.5 . where s. paul says , we preach not our selves , but christ jesus the lord , and our selves your servants for jesus sake . but if this be for your purpose , and prove what you design by it , then was the office of the apostles , which has been so much magnified , a servile thing : then were they put under the dominion , and left to the disposal of their own converts , and made subject to the churches which they had planted , or , which is all one , the chief pastors were obliged to be govern'd by their flocks . and this comes of stretching a metaphor beyond the person that us'd it . you might have observ'd that the apostles were not properly the ministers of the churches , but of christ , and employ'd by him for the good of mankind : and this no more derogates from their power , than it does from the dignity of the blessed angels , that they are ministring spirits (i) , not of men indeed , but for them that shall be heirs of salvation . you might also have consider'd what s. paul declares , that he was so a servant unto all men , (k) as to remain free ; and consequently , that he could not otherwise be their servant , but in a figure . and this which he us'd was very suitable to the condition of a person , who was so abundant in his labours , and comply'd so much with men of different tempers ; not out of weakness indeed , or want of ability , but out of zeal and an ardent desire of the happiness both of jews and gentiles . another reason for which s. paul represented himself under this figure , is , that as servants then received no wages for their work , so he reaped no temporal profit from his industry in communicating things that are spiritual (l) . yet this proceeded from his choice , and not from the necessary obligation of his office. nor did it signifie want of power in him , (m) but a voluntary departing from his own right . he declar'd that the labourer is worthy of his reward (n) : that the lord hath so ordain'd , that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel (o) , and that himself as well as others might justly have expected his maintenance from the contributions of those whom he had instructed , if he would have insisted on it . but had he been literally their servant , especially such a servant as those times afforded (p) , his acting amongst them as a judge or governour (q) , his passing sentence of condemnation on a criminal , and the order he sends that his decree should be put in execution , his declaring also that he was in readiness to revenge all disobedience (r) , must remain unaccountable . the mention he makes of his power to use sharpness (s) , if his directions were not observ'd , and his challenging obedience (t) from them to whom he ow'd obedience , could not but be very surprizing ; and his threatning that he would come with his rod (u) , if they did not prevent it by their reformation , and that then he would not spare (w) , must needs have appear'd very strange language to his good masters the corinthians . another argument , by which you pursue the design of the leviathan in opposing ecclesiastical authority , is taken from the inconsistence , you conceive , it hath with the civil government , if it be not deriv'd from it . you conclude , there can be no jurisdiction at all , unless it be in the magistrate , or proceeds from him ; because , as you tell me (x) , in one kingdom there can be but one spring or fountain of it . but if this be at all pertinent , and by jurisdiction you do not only mean that which is secular , your objection makes as much against the ruling power of the apostles , as of other spiritual pastors . yet is this some of that stuff which you so highly extol , and i suppose , that in your epistle dedicatory you had it particularly in your eye , where you say , that were your idea of church-government receiv'd by all others with the same degree of candour , as , you assure your self , it shall by your noble friends , it would be of infinite advantage to end those fatal controversies that for many ages have perplexed , and in this last almost destroy'd , the church . what your noble friends think of your performance , i cannot tell . for my own part , i am not surpriz'd to find you ascribing infinite advantage to the exploits of your own pen ; nor convinced , but that if your principles about ecclesiastical polity were generally embraced , they might be of more pernicious consequence than the collection , which , as lactantius (y) informs us , vlpian made of the impious rescripts of princes , that he might shew , what punishments should be inflicted on those who professed themselves worshippers of god. the justice of this charge will be manifest from hence , that the church cannot subsist without government , nor government without authority : if therefore , as you contend , there be no ecclesiastical government or authority , but what proceeds from the magistrate , this would put it into the power of a julian , to destroy the church , by dissolving that government , and abrogating that authority . and to this he might be the more inclin'd , did he believe that the hierarchy could not be tolerated with safety to himself , or were so dangerous a thing as you have represented it . had the apostles , you say (z) , own'd any pretensions of a design to erect a national ( much more an vniversal ) hierarchy or form of external government in the church , or had they done any thing to occasion a just suspicion of such a design , it would have much obstructed the true design and end of their mission , which was the planting and spreading christianity . for then magistrates and rulers in their own defence , and for the preservation of their own inherent prerogatives and rights , must have always oppos'd it . that is , they would have been obliged to restrain the apostles , or oppose their attempts , if they acted by other principles , or advanced other notions than you have embraced . and this may a little discover the tendency of your letters of church-government . there can be no question amongst those that believe the gospel , but that our saviour might have established an vniversal hierarchy . nor can there be any doubt , but if he enjoin'd his apostles to erect an external form of church-government , it had been their duty to obey his command . and what must then the kings and rulers of the earth have done ? if you have stated the case right , they might lawfully have taken counsel together against the lord , and against his anointed . they might and ought to have resisted his design and constitution : or in your words , they must in their own defence , and for the preservation of their own inherent prerogatives , have always oppos'd it . a passage which one would think you should hardly reflect on , without something of confusion . it will deserve the severer censure , if it be true , that such a hierarchy as you condemn , was indeed erected , and that by the appointment of christ himself . and this i take to be certain : for the apostles , to whom he committed the government of all the church militant , were not invisible rulers ; nor were the people under their charge invisible subjects . they admitted not persons into the christian society by any secret rite , but by baptism . nor did they expel them from it by any hidden practice , but in a publick manner . the faithful were united to them , and other pastors ordain'd by them , as also amongst themselves , not only in love or charity , as they were to all mankind ; but in that mutual relation which they had as visible members of the same body : and as such , they were obliged to meet and communicate in the assemblies that were held for the putting up of solemn prayers and praises to heaven for the celebration of the eucharist , and other external acts of worship . and whosoever had right to communion in one of those assemblies , he had so in all ; provided his demand of it was no way irregular . and whosoever was expell'd for his offences from one particular church , he was virtually excluded from the communion of all other churches . he could not rescind the sentence against himself , by shifting of places . nor could he be kept bound and loos'd on earth , unless he might have been absolv'd and condemn'd in heaven at the same time . after the apostles days an universal and external form of church-government was kept up , and appear'd in great vigor , notwithstanding the disturbance it receiv'd from without . you your self confess , that the notion of catholick vnity then obtain'd which was not understood , you say (a) , to be internal and spiritual : but to consist in something external , relating unto order and discipline ; as being an vnity that was to be maintain'd by communicatory and other letters , and by orders , and ( that ) was intended to support the notion of but one bishoprick in the church , and that every bishop participated of that one bishoprick in solidum . a notion that was of great use to make the discipline and power the more pointed : for if but one church , then to be cast out of any part of the church , was indeed to be ejected out of the whole ; and if but one bishoprick to be participated by all the bishops , what was done by one , was done by all . all did censure , if one did . the expulsion made by one bishop out of any church was in effect an expulsion from all churches ; and so a cutting off entirely from christianity , and all communion of saints . yet useful as you think this notion was , and early as it obtain'd , you take it to be intolerable . the authority which you acknowledge s. cyprian approv'd , and which was exercis'd by him and other excellent men in his time , was , in your judgment , fit to be extirpated by magistrates and rulers in their own vindication . because , as you tell me (b) , the permission of such a power over their subjects , as would not only possess an interest in their consciences , but be strengthned , as a secular empire , by a close connection of all the parts of it , and an exact dependance and subordination , would render their own precarious . how unfit this was to fall from the pen of a person that makes profession of christianity , your self may better be able to judge , if you suppose , that you had stood before decius or dioclesian , to give your advice concerning the state of christians , and the manner how they were to be treated : for had you then spoken your mind freely , as you have now expressed it , it would have been to this effect , amongst the christians , o emperor , there hath generally obtain'd a form of external government , which is very useful indeed to them , but to you as dangerous : for it possesses an interest in the consciences of your subjects : it is strengthned by a close connection and an exact dependance and subordination of its parts ; and being so , it renders your own power precarious . i therefore think , that it is necessary for you to oppose it , if you will be safe upon the throne , and not weakly abandon the defence of your own inherent prerogatives . but to this the christians might have reply'd , that what you had suggested , was false and injurious . that no danger arriv'd to the emperor from the form or administration of that government which obtain'd amongst them , or from the exercise of their religion in their assemblies , but much advantage rather to himself and his dominions . for example ; by their discipline (c) , they did not usurp his prerogatives , but put greater restraints upon vice , than he did by his laws . by their solemn prayers (d) they endeavour'd , not to engage heaven against him , but to draw down blessings on him ; and by hearing the doctrine of the gospel (e) , they were not instructed in the arts of sedition , but to be subject to principalities and powers , and to pay tribute and custom , fear and honor to whom they were due . by their sacramental engagements (f) they did not carry on any wicked design , but bound themselves not to commit any thefts or robberies , not to break their faith or promise , nor to conceal or keep back a pledge . and they that so carefully avoided all injustice , were far enough from invading the rights of princes , and could not but be useful members of humane society . 't is true the heathen emperors were sometimes under apprehensions of danger from their assemblies . but plinius secundus (g) could discover nothing in them , that might give any just occasion to such fears , or create disturbance to the empire . tertullian (h) , who knew them better , speaks with great assurance of their innocence , he professes , that if they were not unlike the seditious societies or factions , which are unlawful , they ought both to be involv'd in the same condemnation . but , says he , we are the same being assembled , as when we were dispers'd . we are the same all together , as when we are taken singly and apart , hurting no man , grieving no man. the union of persons so inoffensive , and so ready to render to all their due , could not be pernicious to any ; especially , not to the magistrate . the government , which was establish'd amongst them , could not be inconsistent with that of the state ; for however they were distinguished from one another ; yet were they both preserv'd together . the authority of spiritual rulers did subsist without injury to the secular power , which flow'd in another channel , and without help or assistance from it . and in this condition was church-government in the days of the apostles , and afterwards under the reigns of the heathen persecuting tyrants . the variation of circumstances , which it met with under the influence of christian princes , comes not under my present enquiry ; but it will be consider'd in the second part of this treatise . chap. ii. the apostles stood related amongst themselves as equals , but to other ecclesiastical officers , particularly to the seventy disciples , and to presbyters , as superiors , they were bishops both in title and authority . i have shew'd what authority the apostles had not , and what they had . i shall in the next place consider , how they stood related amongst themselves , and to other ecclesiastical officers . i shall digress from you in handling the former of these ; but it will not belong before i come to the last , in which our present controversie is chiefly concern'd . first , i observe , that the apostles stood related amongst themselves as equals in their office and authority . they were all sent by our lord , as he was by the father . they had all alike power to pardon and retain sins . and nothing of jurisdiction can be mention'd , that was peculiar to one of them ; and not common to the rest . yet the zealots of the roman communion ascribe to s. peter a sovereignty over the rest , and for this they passionately contend , not caring what they say , if they think it may advance the glory of that apostle . one may conjecture , what is to be expected in this kind from their lesser writers , when so great a man as leo allatius so much passes the bounds of modesty . peter on earth , says allatius (i) , is christ in dignity and authority . what things soever therefore were under the administration of christ , are subject also to peter , who after him is truly christ : so that he hath authority over all the churches in the world , over all the sheep and over all the shepherds . he tells us in another place (k) , that as the earth was divided amongst the sons of noah , so that shem had asia , cham had africa , and japhet europe : thus was the christian common-wealth divided by s. peter into three patriarchates , which were the alexandrian , the antiochian , and the roman . but as for the roman , it hath dominion , he says , in the other patriarchates . so that the pope is subject to none . he judges all men , but is not judged by any . he gives laws to others , but receives none . he changes laws at his pleasure . he creates magistrates . he decrees what is to be receiv'd as matter of faith , and , as he thinks fit , determines the weightier affairs of the church . although he would , yet he cannot err ; for a bar is put upon falshood , that it may have no access to him . he cannot be impos'd on by delusions , and although an angel should declare otherwise , yet being fortified by the authority of christ , 't is impossible he should be changed . this is very lofty ! and the author hath furnished us in this harangue with a notable train of thoughts . he was keeper of the vatican library to three popes successively , and he shews what sordid flattery he had at the service of his masters . it were easie to make large collections of such extravagancies ; but i hasten to more useful matter . i shall only produce an instance or two out of xavier's history of christ : for since that book is not very common , i may perhaps gratifie the curiosity of some , by shewing what sort of gospel it is that he communicated to the indians . this missionary represents our saviour directing his followers , not to relate to the church the sin of an offending brother who remains unreformed after two admonitions : but to tell it to the prince of the church (l) meaning s. peter , and after him the pope ) . if he had done this no otherwise than as a commentator , he had deserved , says ludovicus de dieu (m) , the character of a bad interpreter ; but when , as an historian , he puts such words into the mouth of christ , he may be justly charged with forgery , and lying against his own conscience . at the same rate , and in pursuance of the same design , when he had truly set down these words of christ , simon , simon , satan hath desired to sift you as wheat ; but i have pray'd that thy faith fail not , and when thou art converted , strengthen thy brethren ; he informs us , that for illustration , our saviour adds (n) , the faith of peter , who is the first successor or calif , shall never fail ; and 't is his work to confirm others . and so it came to pass , says the author , not one pope succeeding peter has been defective in the faith . and thus he comments on his own vision , and would establish an impudent fiction , by an assertion that is notoriously false . yet he declares , that this history excell'd all other things that had been translated into the persian tongue in the reign of acabar (o) the great mogul , for whose instruction it was compos'd . this , says he , is the book that most deserves , that the king should be proud of it , and think it worthy of an honourable acceptance . he therefore petitions him , that a command should be issued out for the reading of it in the church , as being the root of the doctrine of righteousness , the tranquillity of the heart , and the medicine of spirit (p) . these are glorious titles , and we have partly seen , how consistent they are with his performances . xavier might be the more hardy in a place where he was in no great danger of having the materials of his history examin'd . others perceive they have reason to be more cautious , and they proceed not by way of narrative , but labour to support the same cause for which he was concern'd , by arguments . but these , we may be sure , can have no great weight , since they are employ'd to prove , that there was a certain kind of government established amongst the apostles , of which , it is plain enough , themselves were ignorant . doubtless when the sons of zebedee made their petition to our saviour by their mother , that one of them ▪ might sit on his right hand , and the other on his left in his kingdom (q) , they knew nothing of the sovereignty of peter , which yet is supposed to have been promised before (r) , and s. paul was afterwards as great a stranger to it , when , in so publick a manner , he withstood him to the face at antioch (s) . i need not engage farther in this controversie , since it hath been so lately and fully handled by others . and perhaps , sir , you may think , that i have already dwelt too long on a subject , in which i have no adversary , but the advocates of the papacy . but their doctrine being so inconsistent with that scheme of thoughts which you have obliged me to publish , i was not willing to pass by them without ceremony . but now i return to you , and observe , secondly , that notwithstanding there was such an equality amongst the apostles , yet there were other ecclesiastical officers inferior to them . such , i think , were the seventy disciples , whom our lord constituted in the days of his flesh . for since the apostles and seventy disciples are thus represented under different denominations : since it is not doubted , but they were appointed in accommodation to the twelve princes of the tribes , and the seventy elders in the mosaical polity ; since none of the seventy could be of the order of the twelve , without a new election and advancement , you need not think it strange , that i conclude , as many have done before me , that they were of different ranks , and that in this state of things there was a disparity of ministers . but you tell me (u) , that if the prejudices of my education , or of my circumstances , had not stuck too fast to me , i might have discover'd , that the institution of the seventy disciples , was only temporary . yet if this discovery will do you any service , i cannot find that your self have made it . you say indeed , that the seventy were sent about a particular business to the house of israel , and that their office ceas'd of course at their return . but of this i find no grounds in the holy scripture . i am sure , the apostles (w) and seventy disciples (x) were sent abroad and employ'd in like manner at different times : but the first return'd without any loss of their function , and so might the last . and that they did so , we have reason to think , unless they were degraded or depressed into the rank of private men , by some act of their master . but to me it seems incredible , as it did also to blondel (y) , that when the harvest was like to increase , our lord diminished the number of his labourers : that he dismissed them when they were become acquainted with their work , which still was necessary ; or that he gave them a discharge at that time ; when , for their confirmation , he bestow'd on them power over all the power of the enemy , luke 10.19 . 't is true , the scriptures mention them not afterwards by the name of the seventy ; but if this proves , that their office was expired , one may also conclude from it , that they were all dead ; for there is as great a silence about their lives , as about their ministry . it may be useful to contemplate that platform of ecclesiastical polity , which those early times afford : yet i confess , they are something obscure , and that you do not unfitly call them a twilight between the law and the gospel . and this might have restrain'd you from reflecting on me , as influenced by prejudices or my circumstances , for not acknowledging that the office of apostles , which was first confer'd on the twelve , as well as in your opinion , the commission of the seventy disciples , was temporary , or expired at the farthest after our saviour's resurrection , when for this you produce no better argument , than what implies , that a former grant must necessarily be cancell'd , when additions are made to it . but about this , i have no need to dispute . we come now to another state of things which is most clear , and in which we are infinitely concern'd . the wall of partition was broken down : and after our lord's ascension , the multitude of believers increasing first amongst the jews , and afterwards amongst the gentiles , the apostles found it necessary to have some assistance in their labours , and for that purpose ordain'd presbyters and deacons , neither of which were their equals , but subject to their authority . i will not contend , as you have done , that a diocesan compar'd to an apostle is less in authority than a parish priest (z) , nor can i approve , what you take for granted , that the apostles could constitute no officers , over whom they did not retain a jurisdiction (a) . but since you offer more than i can accept ; you allow as much as i demand , which is only this , that presbyters were subordinate to the apostles . if there be now any doubt , whether the title of bishops may fitly be assign'd to the apostles , whose authority was prelatical , that may easily be resolv'd from hence , that when the psalmist , in one of his prophecies (b) , and s. peter in the application of it (c) , spake of a bishoprick , they mean't an apostleship . his bishoprick , say they , let another take ; that is , let another be chosen in the room of judas to bear the office of an apostle , and accordingly the apostles are said to have been bishops by s. cyprian (d) , and by hilarius sardus (e) , and other ancient writers . chap. iii. if the apostles were bishops , episcopacy is of a divine original . the objection against this , that the apostles were extraordinary officers , consider'd . if the apostles were bishops of the church , and if they had episcopal authority over presbyters , episcopacy is not a mere prudential thing , as you suggest , or a defection from the first rule of ecclesiastical government . it was not the invention of a diotrephes , or a creature of ambition , but proceeded from our lord himself , and is of a divine extraction . but however the apostles were bishops , you conclude , that they were not precedents for government in succeeding times , because , as you tell me , they were extraordinary officers . and in this assertion you stand not single ; for it has been often urged by others , and readily receiv'd by persons of different persuasions . nevertheless , i think , we ought not , without due examination , to admit a pretence , which has been made use of to very bad purposes . the greatest zealots for the papal monarchy tell us , that s. peter only convey'd his power to his successors ; but as for the rest of the apostles , their authority was extraordinary and died with them (f) . but this the socinians affirm of them all (g) and the same reason for which they conclude , that an end was put to the apostolical office , they employ also to cancel the use of ministerial mission or ordination . they grant indeed , that such mission was requisite for the first preachers of the gospel , but assert , that now it is become unnecessary , since we are not to teach a new doctrine with which the world is unacquainted , but to explain the old one . but at this rate , they that are weary of any ordinance of christ , which is of positive institution , need but fasten on it the name of extraordinary , and then it must be of no longer continuance . i have therefore been desirous to know what standard you have for extraordinaries . and on this occasion you have oblig'd me with an act of pure generosity , for which i never ask'd . you send me to cicero and lipsius to shew what were the extraordinary honors , power , magistrates , among the romans , which i knew well enough before . but what i demand is , some plain and certain rule by which the things design'd for continuance in the christian church may be distinguished from those , that were shortly to expire . and such a standard as this , i have not been able to obtain from you . i must therefore be content to state the matter , as well as i can , without it ; and for that purpose i shall here set down some things , wherein , i suppose , we are agreed . 1. we are agreed , that they are extraordinary officers , who are only rais'd on some particular or special occasion or accident , to which their work is limited . but then it must be granted , that whatsoever proves not that the work or office of the apostles was limited to their own time , or that they might have no successors , neither doth it prove them to have been extraordinary officers . this i take to be manifest enough , and what use i intend to make of it , will shortly appear . 2. we are agreed , that persons in office may have successors in some things , who have none in others : particularly , they may have those for successors in their ordinary work , who are not so in some of their privileges . we have great reason for this , for otherwise no succession of ecclesiastical officers could have been preserv'd , and we must have remain'd , like the old acephali (h) , without ministers and without sacraments . 3. we are agreed , that the apostles themselves had successors in their ordinary work . but that we may rightly understand one another , and that nothing may disturb so friendly an accommodation , i farther add , 1. that i take all that to be their ordinary work , which others also did perform by the authority they received from them , and which hath been continued in the church ever since their days . 2. i call that their extraordinary work , which was peculiar to them . accordingly you may reckon amongst extraordinaries such circumstances as were appropriate to themselves or their actions : and whatsoever privileges and qualifications they had , which were incommunicable , you may also set them down in your catalogue of extraordinaries , for they were personal , and died with them . 4. we are agreed , that to teach and instruct the people in the duties and principles of religion , to administer the sacraments , to constitute guides , and to exercise the discipline and government of the church , was the apostles ordinary work . this is what you your self assign unto them as such in the words of dr. cave , which i cannot but approve : but you must put a strange interpretation on them , if they do not overthrow that for which you produced them . for if , as you say well after that excellent author , it did belong to the standing and perpetual part of the apostles work , to exercise the discipline and government of the church : that must be either such a discipline , or such a government as they did not exercise , or such as they did : if you say the first of these , you suppose that to have been their ordinary work , which was not their work at all : if you say the last , then it will follow , that such government as they exercis'd , and which was prelatical , ought to be continued to the end of the world. i might now justly neglect all your arguments drawn from the number of the apostles , from their seeing christ , and the mission they receiv'd immediately from him ; from their being the foundation of the church , and the power they had to work miracles ; from the extent of their charge , and their unsetled condition , by which you would prove , that they are extraordinary officers : for you may furnish your self with a reply to them , from the articles of our agreement . but in hopes to give farther light to what has been said before , i am content to attend your motions , and you are like to find me liberal enough in my concessions . i. i grant , that originally there were but twelve apostles ; and i doubt not , but , as s. barnabas intimates (i) , they were so many in allusion to the twelve tribes of israel . but it does not follow from hence , that the office of the apostles was limited to that number or to their persons . on the contrary i shall prove in another place , that it was actually communicated to others : yet i deny not , but the name of the twelve was continued : for as it was assign'd to the apostles (k) with regard to their first institution , when judas was fall'n , and there remain'd only eleven ; so it was also when many more were admitted into the sacred college (l) . and thus says peter du moulin (n) . the regions of decapolis and pentapolis kept up their names , when some of their old cities were destroy'd , or when new ones were built within their precincts : and neapolis ( which signifies a new city ) is still so call'd notwithstanding its great antiquity . ii. i grant , that the first apostles saw the lord : but this was no part of their office : only it made them fit to be the first witnesses of christianity . because , says paulinus (o) , they were to be sent into the world for the information of all nations , it was requisite they should receive the faith , they were to preach , not only with their ears , but with their eys , that what they had more firmly learned they might more constantly teach . but we cannot infer from hence , that none might succeed them in teaching and governing . their conversation with christ in the flesh was a great privilege , to which at this time none can justly pretend : but what qualified them for the mission , by which they were enabled to constitute subordinate officers , did not hinder them certainly from appointing others to preside over them , as themselves had done . iii. i grant , that the apostles had their commission immediately from our saviour . but notwithstanding this privilege , others might as well succeed them in the authority , they had , to govern the churches , as princes might sit on the throne of david , who were not advanced to it in a manner so extraordinary , by the particular appointment and express declaration of the almighty , as himself had been . noah & his sons receiv'd power , by an express revelation (p) , over the beasts of the earth , and over the fowl of the air , over every thing that moved upon the earth , and over the fishes of the sea , and liberty to eat of every living thing as of the green herb . yet they transmitted that power and liberty to their posterity , who have not such an intercourse with heaven , as themselves had . thus the first apostles , who were sent immediately by christ himself , might convey their authority to others , who had not that advantage . and 't is manifest , that their office was actually delegated to matthias , to whom our lord did not immediately speak the words of their commission . iv. i grant , that the apostles were in some sense the foundation on which the christian church was built : for so we learn from s. paul , eph. 2.20 . but this does not demonstrate , that they were an extraordinary part of the building . some think they were said to be the foundation , because they first published the gospel . so the socinians (q) interpret that expression , and they infer from thence , as you have also done , that the apostles were extraordinary officers . but if , for that reason , they were so in any thing , it was in teaching , and consequently , that was an extraordinary part of their work , which , you say , was standing and perpetual . casaubon observes in one of his exercitations on the annals of baronius (r) , that when the word rock is used metaphorically in scripture , it is with allusion to some properties of a rock , and denotes firmness and stability , or the like . and says this learned man (s) a rock and foundation are put for the same thing , and differ not in reality , but in notion only . this is what you will be oblig'd to confute , if you still adhere to your opinion : for in vain do you argue , that the apostles must needs have had extraordinary authority , because they had the honour to be a foundadation of the catholick church , if no authority be signified by that expression . the apostles were vested with authority by their commission , before they planted churches , and therefore did not derive it from that work : but if we think , that because they formed those societies , their authority must needs have been extraordinary and incommunicable , we may as well conclude , that romulus was no king , because at rome he laid the foundation of the regal government , which work was not repeated by those that succeeded him in the throne . for my part , i know no necessity , that they who constitute churches should be of a distinct order from those that afterwards preside over them . frumentius (t) was as much a bishop , when he travell'd from one place to another in india , after his return thither , to plant churches , as any that govern'd them in succeeding times : and they that were ordain'd bishops by the apostles of those that afterwards should believe (u) , did not forfeit their character , whatever that was , or acquire any extraordinary authority , if they were employ'd to convert those that were committed to their charge . but you tell me , that whilst the founder of a college lives , it is the duty of the founded on emergent difficulties , to have recourse to him , and take his directions ; but he dying , his authority dies with him . and it may be so , and it may be otherwise . you your self cannot be ignorant , i am sure , how usual it hath been for founders to appoint visitors of their colleges , and how permanent their power has been in our universities . so that this argument , if one may call it so , may easily be turn'd against you . but founders , you say , as such , as have no successors . this is profound ! and it signifies , that none came after them to lay the very same foundations , which they had finished before . if such arguing as this silences all disputes , and puts an end to the fatal controversies , which you truly say , have almost destroy'd the church , it must be when the contending parties are become very weary of their strife , and are mightily inclin'd to an accommodation . v. i grant , that the apostles had power to work miracles , for the confirmation of their mission and doctrine . but this hinders not a succession to them in that authority which is not miraculous , but may be continued in all ages . there was something extraordinary in the manner of discharging the apostolical office , but it does not follow from hence , that the office itself was so , or ought to be laid aside . otherwise , for the same reason , we must lay aside baptism , imposition of hands , praying and preaching , because all these things were attended with something extraordinary and miraculous . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , says s. chrysostom (w) . there was nothing that was merely humane or common in that age of wonders . but miracles are said to be the signs of an apostle , 2 cor. 12.12 . and from hence you have infer'd , that none can have a title to the authority of apostles , who cannot produce those signs and credentials . and this , i confess , is very specious , but that is all , as may partly appear from what has been said already , and will be more manifest , by comparing the words of s. paul in the place before mention'd , with those of our saviour christ , mark 16.17 , 18. for speaking there in general terms of such as in all parts of the world should be drawn to the christian faith , these signs , says he , shall follow them that believe : in my name shall they cast out devils ; they shall speak with new tongues : they shall take up serpents , and if they drink any deadly thing , it shall not hurt them : they shall lay hands on the sick , and they shall recover . now if one should conclude , that whosoever cannot cast out devils , speak with tongues , &c. have not the signs that should follow those that believe , and therefore are no believers ; this consequence would be as good as the former . but if it be absurd , the other is so too . against this your exception is , that the signs our saviour speaks of , did not follow all , but only some that believed : that miracles were not called the signs of believers , but that they were such marks and characteristical notes of the apostles , that by them s. paul prov'd himself to be one of their order . to which i reply , 1. that you suppose a real difference between the expression of christ , and that of the apostle , whereas there is none . for i appeal to any person that is a competent judge of the sense of words , whether , these signs shall follow or attend a believer , and these shall be the signs of a believer , are not propositions of the same import . certainly had s. paul said , the signs which follow an apostle have been wrought among you , he had said as much as we find in his own words , the signs of an apostle were wrought among you . if therefore the promise of christ extends not to all the faithful , but some may believe who cannot shew the signs that once followed believers ; so may some have such authority over other ecclesiastical officers , as the first apostles exercis'd , who cannot perform those things which were the signs of those apostles . 2. if miracles , as such , were a note of the apostolical office , if they were that peculiar or characteristical mark , by which s. paul was known and demonstrated to be an apostle ; then all that had that mark , that is , all that wrought miracles , were also apostles ; and consequently the number of the apostles must be vastly increas'd by the accession of many christians , who did bear no office in the church at all . yet i deny not , but miracles in connexion with something else , were signs or marks both of the apostles and other christians . they were signs of the apostles , as they confirm'd that authority they exercis'd , and which they declar'd they had receiv'd from christ . they were signs of believers , as attesting the truth of what they professed . they were the signs of those that had the power of miracles , but not such signs , as exclude all others from their order and rank that have them not . for illustration of this , i further add , that something may be fit and necessary for the first institution of an order , which is not so for the continuance of it . for example , the seventy elders mention'd , num. 11. were constituted judges by the immediate command of heaven : and the lord came down in a cloud , and took of the spirit that was upon moses , and gave it to them , and they prophesied , v. 25. this spirit was no more accidental to them , than other miraculous gifts were to the apostles ; for it was made necessary by the appointment of god , v. 16 , 17. and it was such a characteristical mark of their being chosen by him , that eldad and medad , who remain'd in the camp , were distinguished by it , and known to be of their number , v. 26. but it was only a mark of the first elders . none that came after them were advanced to that dignity , and confirm'd in it with such solemnity . yet the great council , which is said to have consisted of this order of men (x) , remain'd till the last desolation of the jewish nation (y) . the advancement of aaron to his office was extraordinary , and so were his circumstances ; yet others succeeded him in that office who were not admitted into it , nor established in it in a manner so miraculous and stupendous , as their great ancestor had been . they resided at jerusalem , whereas he had sojourn'd in the wilderness . they had not their garments made by inspired workmen , as his were : nor could they perform the mighty acts , which he did : yet were they as certainly high-priests as he was , notwithstanding the want of his qualifications . formerly you thought , that if an extraordinary mission and extraordinary power do not constitute extraordinary officers , then there never could be any such in the church of god. but upon better information , you cannot but acknowledge , that aaron had such a mission and such power , and yet was succeeded by some that had neither . only , you tell me , that these extraordinary qualifications of aaron were contingent , and that he had them , not as he was high-priest , but by a particular and express revelation ; nor could his authority , when he was oppos'd by corah and his company , have been preserv'd but by a miracle (z) . afterwards he could not have been continued high-priest , had he not been distinguished by the blossoming of his rod : for that by the appointment of god , became a necessary mark , by which the person might be known whom the lord had chosen to that dignity (a) , and without which , none might have own'd him under the character he had born . but this miracle was a visible confirmation of his election , and the wonderful rod was kept as a lasting sign of it against the rebels (b) . the successors of aaron as they were high priests , gave answers when they were consulted in weighty affairs by vrim and thummim . but according to josephus (c) these oracles ceas'd two hundred years before he wrote his antiquities , which is much later than the period assigned to them by the generality of the jewish rabbies (d) , yet it is early enough to shew , that there were many high-priests who had not that light and perfection which distinguished their predecessors , and for which they were so eminent and useful to their nation . the deacons , at jerusalem , where they were first appointed , were originally seven ; and these might not have been chosen and constituted , had they not been men full of the holy ghost (e) . stephen who was one of them , was full of faith and power , and did great wonders and miracles (f) . and philip also cast out unclean spirits , and healed those that were taken with palsies , and those that were lame (g) : so that simon magus , who saw the mighty works which he did , was filled with wonder and astonishment , like the inchanters of egypt , when they beheld the finger of god. but neither was it afterwards always requisite , that there should be just seven deacons , however some religiously adher'd to that number ; nor was it necessary , that they should always be adorn'd with gifts that were extraordinary and miraculous : for otherwise , when miracles ceas'd their office must have ceas'd with them . the circumstances of the first presbyters were also extraordinary . they were qualified for their ordination with extraordinary gifts , and directions were given about it by extraordinary indications . they could pray with the spirit , and preach by inspiration : they could speak languages which they had never learn'd , and perform other things as miraculous . yet when all those extraordinaries ceas'd , the order and mission of presbyters did not so , but still remain'd , and ought to remain to the end of the world. from these instances , it is manifest , that some things might be requisite for the beginning of an office , and for some that were vested with it ; a repetition of which , is not always necessary for its preservation ; nor for all that are advanced to it . however therefore , the apostles had some prerogatives , to which none at this time have any just pretence , however it was very fit , that they that were the first planters of the gospel should be able to recommend their doctrine , which was then new , to the world , with miracles , which we may call the seals of that commission which they receiv'd from christ : yet the authority they had , as supreme visible pastors of the church , might descend to others , who have no need of new seals or credentials for what may be sufficiently confirm'd by the same . let us now suppose , if you please , that the apostles did more miracles than any others ; or that the working of some , was peculiar to them ; yet if miracles , as such , hinder not a succession to them , the number and quality of their miracles cannot do it without some declaration , that they were intended for that purpose . they may rather seem to concur with other things , in signifying the pleasure of the almighty to preserve that office or order which he so highly approv'd , and which he had established in so wonderful a manner . vi. i grant , that the charge of the apostles was of great extent : yet this hinders not , but that they might have successors in their office or authority . they had a large sphere of action , when they were sent to disciple all nations : but then no apostle had sole commission to do this : neither were the apostles wont to act as in a common council by majority of voices , but dispers'd themselves , that they might better propagate the doctrine of christ : they did not all travel together into the same country ; but some went into asia , some into scythia , and others into other nations , says didymus (q) , as they were directed by the holy spirit . the armenian historian in galanus (r) tells us , that having received the holy ghost , they divided the countries by lot. but certain it is , that some of them were more especially engaged to plant christianity amongst the gentiles , some amongst those of the circumcision : some in this nation , and some in that . no single person had the whole work of preaching the gospel committed solely to him . for , as there ought to be no oecumenical bishop , so there was no oecumenical apostle , who had jurisdiction over the rest . it is also manifest , that all the bishops in the second and other centuries , had power to govern all the churches that were planted by all the apostles , and to propagate christianity far and near , so that the charge of both in general , was of equal extent . and if the multitude of pastors , as well as of other christians , increasing , particular bishops were concluded within a narrower compass than the apostles had been , such disproportion of dioceses , does not necessarily hinder the title of succession of one from another , as may appear by the following instances . the kings of judah are mentioned in scripture , as sitting on the throne of david (s) , when ten tribes pay'd them no obedience : so that however they had not his dominions intire , it was enough to preserve their succession to him in royal authority , that they retained it in such parts of them as remain'd under their subjection . eutropius says of severus , that he left his sons bassianus and geta his successors (t) . and constantine , he tells us , left his three sons his successors (u) , none of which singly could have all the dominions of their father , in which the other brothers had their share . and not to mention other examples , i find in plutarch's life of demetrius (w) , the great men who divided amongst them the empire of alexander , twice styled his successors , and once the successors by way of eminence : yet no one of them had either the personal courage and conduct , or all the dominions of that mighty conqueror . perhaps it will be said , that this is a mere dispute about words : for that is the reflection which a learned foreiner (x) was pleas'd to cast on it when it had been managed by an incomparable hand . but when salmasius (y) , whom others have followed , argues against the succession to the apostles , from his own mistake of a word , to give its true interpretation , and to confute that which is erroneous , is the best way , i think , to shew the weakness of his reasoning . vii . i grant , that other pastors of the church are commonly under an obligation to a more constant residence in some particular places , than the apostles were ; yet this hinders not the bishops from succeeding the apostles in their office or authority . for , 1. it is not essential to the office of a bishop , that he reside in a place as a local pastor of a particular church : nor is it always necessary , as you suggest , that he should be ordain'd to a certain people . they that with us are advanc'd to the episcopal chair , are constituted bishops in the church of god : but that they are limited to a certain diocese , proceeds from such rules of government , as are not always of necessary obligation . the council of chalcedon declar'd (z) , that none should be ordain'd at large ; yet this rule , says grotius (a) , was not of divine and perpetual , but positive right , and it may admit of many exceptions . before that council s. (b) paulinus was ordained absolutely , in sacerdotiam tantùm domini , non in locum ecclesiae dedicatus , as himself speaks in an epistle to severus : and when s. jerom (c) was made a presbyter , he had no peculiar church or title assign'd to him . and to come nearer to the matter , photius tells us (d) , that caius who flourished in the beginning of the third century , was constituted bishop of the gentiles , that is , of the heathen at large , that by his labours amongst them , he might draw them to the christian faith. indeed where ecclesiastical government is setled and christianity flourishes , however persecuted by the civil power , it is requisite for the most part , that the jurisdiction of bishops should be confin'd within their proper and certain bounds . yet when their circumstances resemble those of the apostles , and the great work is to convert infidels to the christian faith , doubtless it is then fit that they should make freer excursions . and therefore the great council of constantinople (e) , that so strictly limited bishops within their own dioceses , excepted those from their general rule who liv'd among the heathens , and gave them liberty to attempt their conversion , and that within the bounds of other bishops , as balsamon and zonaras explain the canon (f) . and yet i cannot think that they to whom this liberty was indulged were bishops of a distinct species , when they only differ'd from others in a particular circumstance . nor can i believe that they were bishops at home and something else abroad : or that they forfeited their episcopal character , when they were making converts or confirming them in a forein province . it is farther observable that the canons by which ecclesiastical officers were restrain'd within certain precincts , being made in times of peace , did not bind in cases of necessity . on which account , nicephorus patriarch of constantinople determin'd (g) , that it was lawful to communicate with the presbyters who were ordain'd at rome , and naples , and in lombardy , without the acclamation , or a title . and this he confirms from the examples of athanasius and eusebius , who , when arianism prevail'd , confer'd orders out of their own dioceses : a plain argument , that they had contracted no such relation to a particular people , but they remembred , they were bishops of the catholick church ; and thought they might , on some occasions , exercise their episcopal power in any part of it , without a breach of catholick communion . to conclude : as the office of presbyters was the same , when they were severally appropriated to distinct congregations , as it was when they had the care or government in common of many congregations under the presidence of the bishop (h) : so is the office of bishops the same , whether they are limited or not , within certain dioceses . and to serve the necessities of the church , some of them may be the more strictly confin'd , and not suffer'd to pass their line : and others may be left to greater freedom in the exercise of their function , without any essential difference . 2. it was not essential to the office of an apostle , that he should constantly be engag'd in travels . s. paul who was so abundant in his labours , remained two years at ephesus : and s. james resided much longer at jerusalem , as i shall shew in the following chapter . in the mean time , let me tell you , that all the arguments , by which you would prove , that the apostles were extraordinary officers , perform more than you would have them , or nothing at all . if they prove any thing , it is , that the apostles could have no successors in teaching and instructing the people ; which yet you say , was a standing and perpetual part of their office. so that you must be content , i think , either to yield up the cause , or you will be concern'd , as much as i , to answer your own objections . chap. iv. s. james was an apostle , and yet he was bishop of jerusalem , and constantly resided there . amongst the arguments by which some would prove , that the apostles were extraordinary officers , i find none more frequently produced , than that which is taken from their unsetled condition . and this you urge , after the example of others : but something you have in the management of it , that is peculiar , and must be ascrib'd to to your own invention . sure i am , say you (i) , athanasius in his comment upon the epistle to the romans , ad c. 2. v. 1. affirms the office of the apostles to have been to go up and down and preach , circumvagari ( as his translator renders him ) & evangelium praedicare . but excuse me , sir , if i tell you , that sure i am , you never saw any such comment of athanasius , nor any such translator as you have mention'd ; nor have they any being , but in your imagination . the use you make of the words you have cited , is almost as surprising as the quotation it self . in the judgement , say you , of this so celebrated a father , the apostles ( as such ) were but itinerant preachers : as if you had a mind to depress them now , as much as you exalted them before . i leave you to clear your self as well as you can ; and i come now to prove what i have already propos'd , that it was not essential to the office of an apostle , that he should be constantly engaged in travels . and this i think , is very clear , from the example of s. james the just . i know that many learned men have deny'd , that this james was one of the twelve , which others notwithstanding of great eminence have affirm'd . but i have no need to be interessed in that controversy . i think it sufficient , that he had both the name and authority of an apostle (k) . and i shall shew , that he was bishop of jerusalem , and constantly resided there . i join these things together , because of their affinity . if i prove either of them , it will be for my purpose ; if both , the truth will be more confirm'd , and they will give mutual light to one another . that s. james was bishop of jerusalem , appears from the testimony of a whole cloud of witnesses , amongst which , clemens alexandrinus and hegesippus , are the most commonly produced , and chiefly depended on by the assertors of episcopacy , as being the most ancient and best qualified to gain an assent to their information . s. clemens flourished in the next age after the apostles , and as blondel says truly of him (l) , he was eminent for holiness , and all manner of learning . but divine learning was the highest in his esteem ; to acquire which , he travel'd into many countries ; and , as himself acquaints us , he had masters to instruct him , that were of several nations . one of them , he tells us , was of coelosyria , and another of egypt (m) : the third he mentions , was an assyrian , and the fourth a hebrew . and these having preserv'd the doctrines and institutions of the apostles pure , which they receiv'd from peter and james , from john and paul , as children from their parents , communicated them to him and others in his time . we have therefore reason to think , that he was not deceiv'd nor design'd to impose on posterity , when he left us this relation , for which i now make use of his name (n) ; that although our lord had prefer'd peter , and james , and john , before the rest of the apostles , yet they did not contend about honour , but chose james the just to be bishop of jerusalem . jerusalem was the principal place , wherein our saviour himself exercis'd his office , and taught personally , when he was upon earth . it was the metropolis of the jews , who afforded converts to the christian faith , before salvation was brought to the idolatrous gentiles . the church of jerusalem therefore was justly styl'd by the council of constantinople (o) , the mother of churches : and it consisted of a vast number of believers . and these are things that may put such marks of dignity on the person that presides in it , that the chief apostles had reason to think , it would not have been a diminution , but an honour rather , to any of them , to have been in his station . this may be sufficient to clear the testimony of clemens alexandrinus , as recorded by eusebius , to whom i refer'd you : and i am not concern'd to enquire , whether the relation of it , which you produce from theodorus metochita and others , and which , you say (p) carries with it , it s own confutation , be so absurd as you imagine : yet i cannot but observe , that when i offer , what you despair of opposing with success , you think it enough to find out something else , which , in your judgment carries with it its own confutation . a politick device , i confess , but no great argument of your ingenuity . hegesippus flourish'd in the same age with clemens , but something more early : and living so near the apostles time , he made use of that advantage in his enquiries into the things that were done in them ; amongst which , he acquaints us , this was one (q) , that s. james took on him the government of the church of jerusalem . hegesippus does not only relate this of him , but he gives us a copious account of his life and martyrdom : yet this , i confess , would signifie but little , were he , as joseph scaliger represents him (r) , a trifling and a fabulous writer . but that he was unjustly censur'd by that celebrated critick , has been shew'd by petavius and valesius (s) : and to what they have said , more might be added , for his vindication : if it would not occasion too large a digression ; or were it necessary to insist so much on the authority of one , for the confirmation of a thing , which may be sufficiently prov'd by the suffrage of many others . that s. james was bishop , or had the charge of the church of jerusalem , hath been generally believ'd by the christians of different nations and languages . the memory of it hath been preserv'd by the ethiopians in their diptychs (t) : by the coptites in their fasti (u) ; and by the syrians in their menology (w) . it hath been receiv'd and related as an undoubted truth by hippolytus (x) and eusebius (y) : by cyril of jerusalem (z) , and another cyril of scythopolis (a) : by epiphanius (b) , and chrysostom (c) : by augustin (d) , and fulgentius (e) : by nicephorus (f) , and photius (g) : by oecumenius (h) , and nilus (i) : and it was also mention'd as a thing universally acknowledged by the sixth general council (k) ; and blondel (l) himself confesses , that it was asserted by all the fathers . this testimony in which they are so unanimous , will appear the more considerable , if it agree exactly with the circumstances of s. james , as they are represented in the holy scripture : and that it does so , will be manifest , by comparing it with several places of the new testament wherein he is mention'd . for instance , we read , that when peter had escap'd out of prison , he said to those that were surpriz'd and astonish'd at his presence (m) go and shew these things to james and to the brethren . in which words he passes by all ecclesiastical officers , except james , without any particular notice . and this i take to be an indication , that however , there might be others at jerusalem that were subordinate to him , there remain'd none with him , that were his equals . when paul went up to jerusalem to see peter , other disciples saw he none , but james the lord's brother (n) . and this is that james says s. jerom (o) , who was the first bishop of jerusalem : a person of great sanctity , and of such reputation , that the people would press and throng , that they might touch but the skirt of his garment . that father also gives this reason why s. paul did not see other apostles , it was he tells us (p) , because they were dispersed abroad to preach the gospel : but he resided where his peculiar charge was . fourteen years after this , or rather , as some think , after his conversion , s. paul went up again to jerusalem , and there he found james (q) , and reckons him with cephas and john , who seem'd to be pillars , and were chief apostles ; hereby paying respect , in the opinion of bede , to the dignity of his chair (r) . and 't is observable , that however peter was one of the number , yet to james he gives the first place , because says anselm (s) , at jerusalem where he was bishop , he had the primacy . but this you will not admit : for that preference , you say , might be only in respect of his being the lord's brother (t) . as if john was not also the lord's brother , who is mention'd after peter , or james had but lately contracted this relation . i think this variation in the order of names from the usual method , must suppose a change in the affairs of the apostles , and import something peculiar to s. james , which did not always belong to him ; but now gave him the pre-eminence in this place . what that was , we have seen already : and mr. calvin saw it , and does not speak of it as a thing improbable : for says he (u) , when the question is concerning dignity , it is wonderful that james should be prefer'd before peter : perhaps it was , because he was prefect of the church of jerusalem . the good man would not speak more plainly out of tenderness to his own discipline . at the council of jerusalem s. james makes a greater figure than any of the rest of the apostles , and speaks with an air of authority , as president of the synod . he was bishop of jerusalem , says chrysostom , (w) and to him was the chief place assign'd . and from hence it was , that others having given their sense of things in debate . s. james passes the final sentence ; whereupon , says hesychius (x) , how shall i celebrate the servant and brother of christ , the supreme governour of the new jerusalem , the prince of priests , the chief of the apostles , the most resplendent amongst the lamps , and most illustrious amongst the stars ! peter preaches , but james decrees . his words are but few , but comprehend the greatness of the question . my sentence is , says he , that we trouble not them , which from among the gentiles are turned unto god. and thus , says the commentator on his acts (y) , he spake the word , and it was done . his suffrage passed into the form of a law , and was deliver'd to the church . indeed , if s. james had usurpt a jurisdiction over his collegues , this had been criminal . but i have ascrib'd to him no other pre-eminence , but what , we may well suppose , was granted to him by the rest of the apostles , that the proceedings in the assembly might be the more regular . it was agreeable to the nature of a synod , not that he that presided in it , should determine the thing in controversie by his sole power , but with the consent of the other members of it . this is what s. james did after the full hearing of the matter , and the manner of his giving judgment (y) and the deference that was pay'd to the sentence he pronounc'd , are very remarkable ; for all did not only acquiesce in it , so that the debate ended , but his words were put into the decree which became obligatory to the churches . i find several persons of the roman communion , as much dissatisfied as your self , with the place that hath been assigned to s. james in this council . there , says binius (a) , peter rising up as the head of the apostles , speaks first . and says m. de marca (b) , it is peter that assembles the council , in which he gives the first or chief sentence , by defining the matter , as the emperor was wont to do in the senate . this sounds very great , but hath nothing in it of truth . binnius himself affirms (c) after baronius , that the apostles who were dispers'd over the world , were brought together by divine instinct or revelation ▪ and this he proves from the second chapter of the epistle to the galatians . and we read acts 15.7 . that there had been much disputing ; not without words i presume ; and then , and not before , peter rose up , and expressed his sense of the thing in question . yet if he had been the first speaker , neither will it be granted , that this is sufficient to establish the prerogatives which some have assign'd to him : nor yet , that the account he gave to the synod of the success of his preaching to the gentiles , and the expostulation with which he concludes it , are any arguments of his supremacy . yes says mr. schelstrate (d) , when he had spoken , the debate ceased . all were silent , and thereby gave a very manifest sign , that they thought , they must all acquiesce in his determination . that is , because 't is said , that all the multitude kept silence , and gave audience to barnabas and paul , v. 12. therefore s. peter was the supreme judge of controversies : and the other apostles had nothing to do , but to approve the sentence of their head. certainly he had need to have a very favourable judge , to get this admitted for demonstration . but any thing satisfies a willing mind : and some have been content on any grounds to attribute to s. peter what he never had , that they may derive from him what was never in his possession . but i return to s. james , who after the council was ended continued in his diocese . for s. paul in the second chapter of his epistle to the galatians , v. 12. takes notice of some jews that came from him to antioch . that is , says s. augustin (e) , they came from judea , for james govern'd the church of jerusalem . several years after this , s. paul return'd to jerusalem , and there he found s. james and his presbyters together , acts 21.18 . and this james , as chrysostom tells us (f) , was that great and admirable man , who was brother to our lord , and bishop of jerusalem . the last time he is mention'd in the scripture , is by s. jude ; but from him , i confess , we can learn but little , that may give any light to our affair . for however , in the title prefixed to the syriack version of his epistle published by dr. pocock , he is styled the brother of james the bishop , he is only said to be his brother in the text it self , v. 1. yet from hence we may gather , that jude knew him to be a person of that figure in the church , that the consideration of his relation to him , might gain attention to his doctrine and instruction . and i see no reason why he should not as well have call'd himself the brother of simeon (g) , as of james , but that simeon was not then in so eminent a station . how long it was that s. james govern'd the church of jerusalem , we cannot learn from scripture . but s. jerom (h) says it was thirty years , and he is followed amongst others by an ancient writer of our nation cited by whelock † in his annotations on bede's ecclesiastical history : it was not much less according to eutychius (i) to whom on other occasions you pay respect : for as he tells us , james continued bishop of jerusalem twenty eight years ; and with him agrees elmacinus , as i find him quoted by abraham ecchellensis (k) . in these accounts there will be no real difference , if it be allow'd , that in the greater are reckon'd two parts of years , as if they were entire , and that both are omitted in the less . during all his time , after our lord's ascension we have no relation of his travels ; but so frequently do we find him mention'd in scripture , as remaining at jerusalem , that walo messalinus thought (l) , that he did not remove a foot from thence . it was perhaps by reason of his constant residence there , that the jewish rabbies (m) became acquainted with his miracles , the memory of which they have preserv'd . but certain it is , that josephus (n) speaks of him , as a person that liv'd there under a very high character . he tells us , that all good men and careful observers of the law were highly dissatisfied with the proceedings of ananus the high-priest against him . and he imputes the calamities of the jews , and the destruction of their temple , to their killing this james the just , who , as he says , was the brother of jesus , who is called christ . and from hence it appears , that jerusalem was the scene of his actions and of his sufferings , that there he had flourish'd in great reputation , and there was condemned and persecuted to death by the fury of his enemies . but josephus , you tell me , speaks not a word of his dignity as a prelate : as if i or any body else had ever affirm'd , that he did . it is sufficient , that what he says of james , concurs with other things , to prove that he did not travel about the world , or that he was not an itinerant preacher : and for this cause i produced his testimony . if after all this , you say , he was no standing officer , i desire to be inform'd , what it is , that constitutes a standing officer , or by what marks he may be known . if you say , he was engaged in frequent journies to plant the gospel . i pray oblige me with the history of his travels . if you say , that however he was an apostle , his jurisdiction was but equal to that of presbyters , i must leave you to combat your self , who have ascrib'd to apostles a superior authority . one evasion you have yet remaining , which is , that granting s. james was bishop of jerusalem , it was in that sense only , as he was bishop of all the churches in the world ; and for this you quote a passage of an epistle , suppos'd to have been written to him by clement , whose name it bears . but as the words of this epistle are set down in the basil edition (o) , the author does not address himself to james , as governing all the churches in the world ; but to him , as bishop of jerusalem , and to all churches where-ever they are . be it as it will : no great regard , i think , is to be paid to an impostor , who , amongst other marks of forgery , hath this one , that is notorious ; he gives an account of the last words of peter , and of his decease , to james , who died before him the space of several years . we have seen under what character s. james remain'd at jerusalem : and we may conclude , that this office was not personal , but continued after his death , if it be evident , that simeon , or simon , as he is sometimes call'd , was his successor . and this is what is affirm'd by the ancients generally ; and the notice of what they declare might be the better convey'd to them , because simeon lived to so great an age , that his martyrdom falls within the compass of the second century . eusebius (p) and abulpharagius (q) assign it to the tenth year of trajan , which was the one hundred and seventh year of our lord. but a learned man of our own (r) ascribes it to the one hundred and sixteenth year of christ , and for this he produces some probable reasons , which have met with good reception (s) . not long after that time hegesippus was a writer , and he testifies (t) , amongst many others , that after the death of james , simeon was constituted bishop of jerusalem : a truth , that in the ages which afforded the best judges of it , met with an universal approbation . this being clear ; i know not what better form of government we can have , than that which was established at jerusalem in the first christian church that ever was , and of which some of the kindred of our saviour had the administration . i know not what more excellent model can be contriv'd , if this gives no satisfaction . chap. v. the apostolate differs not in substance from the office of a bishop . it was design'd for continuance . i have consider'd the arguments by which you would demonstrate , that the apostles were extraordinary officers , and in examining the last of them which i mention'd , i proceeded farther than was necessary , because i was willing to lay some things together , that relate to the same subject . it was my business to shew , that a setled residence in a place , was consistent with the office of an apostle ; and this i have not only done , but also prov'd , that s. james was bishop of jerusalem , and that simeon was his successor : and if so , this does not only answer whatever you produce for your opinion , but is a direct argument for episcopacy . it also shews , that the apostolate differs not in substance from episcopacy , and that it was design'd for continuance . a truth which i shall confirm , 1. from the nature of that office or authority , which was confer'd on the apostles . 2. from the necessity of the continuance of some things which depend on a succession to them . 3. from the promise which was annexed to their commission . 4. from the actual communication of their office to others , and the preservation of it after their decease . 1. this office or authority which was of divine institution , was never abrogated by any divine precept : it was neither appropriated to the apostles , nor can time render it useless or unfit : it is therefore such as ought to be preserv'd in all ages . we may well think , that they who were conversant with christ himself , and had receiv'd their commission immediately from him , have afforded us the best pattern of government that ever was ; and it seems very improbable , that our lord should shew us in their example , the most excellent way of managing ecclesiastical affairs , and put us under an obligation to reject it , without telling us so : or , that such a disparity of officers , as had his approbation , but never was oppos'd by him , should now become antichristian . they say , that empires are best preserv'd by such means as they were founded , and if the apostles thought a disparity of officers necessary , when they were employ'd in converting the gentiles ; i think 't is still requisite for the government of them now that they are converted : for their conversion , did prepare them for more instruction : it obliged them to an attendance at religious assemblies : it made them subject to discipline , who were not so before . and when the work increases , i think the labourers ought not to be diminished , nor their ranks broken . we may rather suppose , that when whole kingdoms embraced the christian faith , disorders would be increas'd . and when the first apostles were departed , who could convey diseases and death in their censures ; whenever that miraculous power ceas'd , it was requisite that some should retain all the authority they had , which was communicable , that by the dignity of their office they might keep up a reverence of discipline , and preserve the peace and unity of the church . 2. there is a necessity of the continuation of some things which might depend on a succession to the apostles , and cannot be preserv'd without it . amongst them , i reckon the administration of the sacraments ; and the reason of it will be manifest , when i have examin'd , by what right it is that you assign that administration to presbyters , as a standing part of their work. i therefore demand in the first place , from whence it is that they have right to baptize ? if it be from any declaration that is made to them in scripture , let it be shew'd ; if from any command , let it be produc'd : if from example , i pray inform me , where any of their order did baptize . i think upon enquiry it will be found , that none in scripture are said to baptize , but such as you call extraordinary officers : and if they were so , as many of their actions as were peculiar to them may not be drawn into precedent : it follows therefore from your principles , either that baptism must be laid aside , or else the laity may confer it , and they that have taken it out of their hands , have done it in their wrong , and that , ever since the days of the apostles . concerning the lord's supper , you are like to be as much or more at a loss ; for you tell me , that these words , do this in remembrance of me , were said to the apostles , not as they were ministers , but as communicants ( you mean private christians . ) and if so , i would demand , what grounds you have from scripture , for assigning to any ecclesiastical officers the administration of this sacrament , or how , with consistence to your own principles , you can free them from usurpation . the reason for which you think those words of christ were not said to the apostles as ministers , but as private christians , is , that otherwise there is no canon of communion for the common people or laity : at which , i suppose , some of them , who talk much of religion , would not be offended . but if there be nothing else , on which their right to the communion is founded , without any injury to them , this matter may be thus adjusted . the apostles as receiving the communion might be the representatives of the faithful , and of ministers only , in receiving the command of christ , to do as he had shew'd them ; that is , to bless and give to others the sacramental elements of bread and wine . and such i affirm they were ; and such you must acknowledge them to have been , unless you will say , that the administration of the eucharist by the pastors of the church hath no foundation in the holy scripture . i see no way to avoid the difficulties with which you are intangled , unless it be granted , that the apostles receiv'd commission to administer both the sacraments for not only themselves , but others also . and since a right to that commission cannot be convey'd but by ordination ; and there can be no power of ordination , unless it be deriv'd from the apostles : from hence i gather , that in this , which was a principal part of their authority , as well as in that of conferring baptism , and celebrating the eucharist , they ought to have successors in all ages . 3. when our lord , before his ascension , gave his commission to the apostles , he left them an assurance of his presence with them in these words , lo i am with you alway , even unto the end of the world , matth. 28.20 . and from hence it appears , that it is agreeable to our saviour's intention , that they should have successors : (u) for as the assembly of divines say well , this promise cannot be confin'd to their persons , who did not live to the end of the world , but reacheth all ages , and strongly argueth that the office of the ministry shall continue till the second coming of christ : and if so , let us see whether the words be capable of such a paraphrase as this ; hereafter there shall be another sort of ministers , far inferior to you , not only in personal gifts or inward and miraculous qualifications , but in authority ; and these i will protect to the end of the world ; but you and your function must shortly be extinct . now this is such an odd kind of interpretation , as i can by no means approve . but since the promise was made immediately to the apostles , one would think , that it had a more especial regard to the preservation of their order , if it was also meant of any others . against this , your exception is , that by the end of the world , some understand the consummation of the mosaical seculum , and think they have good reason for so doing , by comparing matth. 28.20 . with 24.3 , 14. but that expression is only used in the former of those verses of matth. 24. where the disciples said to our saviour , what shall be the sign of thy coming , and of the end of the world ? and here they seem to understand such an end , as should be put to the world , at our lord 's personal and glorious appearance ; and not that earlier period of his coming in a figure only , to take vengeance on the jewish nation : for this could hardly agree with the idea they had of that state of things , about which they made their enquiry . however it be , thrice (w) do we meet with this phrase in the thirteenth chapter of the same evangelist , and as often it signifies the consummation of all things at the day of judgment : for then it is , that the son will send forth his angels to gather out of his kingdom all things that offend , and them which do iniquity , and cast them in the furnace of fire . and then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their father ; that is , when he shall deliver up the kingdom to the father ; for then , says the apostle , (x) cometh the end . but if it be said , that the predictions i have mention'd from matth. 13. import no more , than the calamities that fell on the jews , and the refreshment that the christians receiv'd above sixteen hundred years ago ; after this rate of expounding scripture , one may evacuate the clearest prophecies of the future and glorious appearance of our lord , to render to every one according to his deeds . the exposition which you defend , is not free from other inconveniences : for it supposes , that the continuance of christ with his apostles , must be commensurate with the time of his long-sufferance towards his mortal enemies : and then , however he had already freed them from the mosaical yoke , and intended to disperse them into remote regions , where they would be little concern'd with the political affairs and government of judea : yet wherever they were , they could have no assurance of the presence of our lord with them , any longer than he preserv'd his crucifiers , and so their hopes must live and dye with his murderers . 't is true , all the apostles did not live till titus executed on the jews a most just vengeance . but then i would demand of you , that limit the advantage of our saviour's promise to the persons of the apostles , and understand by it , that extraordinary assistance he gave them in the discharge of their office , how he continued with them that were deceas'd : and whether their dust and ashes , or their reliques , perform'd the work and signs of apostles till that period , which you call the end of the mosaical seculum ? but some lived after that time , and i would be inform'd , whether they were then abandon'd by our lord ? if so , what afflicting thoughts must it cost s. john , who liv'd above thirty years after the destruction of jerusalem , when his master , that lov'd him so well all that while , deserted him , or lest him without his usual consolation . but this inconvenience you think (y) , may be avoided , by comparing matth. 28.20 . with matth. 1.25 . where we are inform'd , that joseph knew not mary , till she had brought forth her first born son. for as the meaning is not , that he knew her afterwards , so when our saviour says , that he would be with his apostles to the end of the jewish world , this signifies indeed , that he would be with them so long ; but does not imply , that he would be with them no longer . that is , you had fixed a period of christ's presence , but finding your self pressed with the consequence of it , you declare , that there was no period of it at all . and his declaring , that he would be with them to the end of the world , was as if he had said , he would be with them after the end of the world indefinitely . i do not see how that instance from matth. 1.25 . supports this exposition . for neither doth this shew how our saviour could be said to be with those that were deceas'd before the end of the jewish polity : that is , how he assisted them in the work of their apostleship , when that work was over , and they were entred into their rest : nor yet does it reach the case of those that surviv'd . for however it is enough for us to know , that the mother of our lord remain'd a virgin till the time of his birth ; yet it was not enough for them to know , that he would be with them till the jews were destroy'd . they had as much need of comfort and encouragement from his gracious promise afterwards , as they had before ; yet of this they must have been deprived , had the end of the world , beyond which that promise was not extended , signified the ruine of their nation . upon the whole , these words of grotius on matth. 28.20 . seem highly rational . from hence , says he (z) , it very manifestly appears , it was the mind of christ , that the apostles should commit to others , and they again to other faithful persons , that charge of government which was committed to them . for since this promise extends it self to the consummation of the world , and the apostles could not live so long ; christ is plainly to be thought to have spoken to their successors in that office. and this , sir , is the testimony of that learned man , who for the reputation he hath justly gain'd in the world of great knowledge , and exact criticism may signifie something with you , to use your own words : and if he was not much mistaken , this text of scripture , by which you would prove that the apostles were extraordinary officers , overthrows what you design by it , and supposes that the apostles ought to have successors till the coming of our lord to judgment . 4. the office of the apostles or the authority they had over presbyters was committed to many in their days that were not of the twelve , and it was preserved after their decease . it was therefore design'd for continuance , and ought to remain in all ages . this consequence i take for granted , and the assertions from whence it is drawn , i shall clear in their proper places . at present i only observe , that if they are true , they will much confirm what went before . for whatever extraordinary qualifications and peculiar privileges the first apostles had , it will be manifest , that the authority they had as supreme governours of the church , was none of them . that could not be limited to them , which was convey'd to others . what was communicated was certainly communicable . chap. vi. the title and office of apostles were communicated to many besides the twelve . i shew'd before , that however there were originally but twelve apostles , yet their office might be confer'd on others that were not of that number ; and that it actually was so , is evident from the examples of paul and barnabas , who were apostles (a) , and that not only in title , but in power also . for the first of these declares , that he was nothing behind the very chiefest apostles (b) . and if barnabas had ow'd him any subjection , when a controversie happen'd between them , it might easily have been ended by that authority , which one of them might have exercis'd , and the other ought to have obey'd : but they debated the matter on equal terms , and neither of them gave place to the other . the result was , when the contention between them grew sharp , they departed asunder , and took different courses (c) . but at another time they agreed , and went together to jerusalem : and then james , and peter , and john , who seem'd to be pillars , paid to both the regard that was due to their collegues : (d) they gave to both the right hand of fellowship , and both went to exercise their apostolical office among the heathen , as the other three did among those of the circumcision . you think however , that barnabas was an apostle of an inferior order , and that he had his apostleship from the church . for this you quote acts 11.22 . where , you tell me , the church is said to send forth barnabas as their apostle (e) , and not barely to dismiss him . but you might as well have said , that when the brethren sent away paul (f) , they did not barely dismiss him , but made him an apostle . and at the same rate , you may carry on the work of criticism farther , and declare , that when the magistrates sent serjeants (g) to free paul and silas ; when herod sent an executioner to cut off the head of john the baptist (h) ; when the chief priests and scribes sent forth spies that should feign themselves just men (i) , and when the pharisees and chief priests sent officers to take our saviour (k) , all these that were sent , were transform'd into so many apostles . that barnabas was , as you imagine , subordinate to any other apostles , is altogether improbable . for s. paul speaks of him , as a person in the same station with himself , where he says , have we not power to lead about a sister , a wife , as well as other apostles , and as the brethren of the lord and cephas ? and i only and barnabas , have we not power to forbear working ? 1 cor. 9.5 , 6. which words suppose s. barnabas to have been s. paul's colleague , and s. paul to have had equal power with any of the most eminent apostles , and both to have been vested with all the rights and authority , that belonged to the apostleship ; for otherwise those expostulations would have been liable to great exceptions . besides paul and barnabas , there were many others that were not of the twelve , and yet did bear the title of apostles : and of what account they were in the church , theodoret informs us (l) . he observes , that anciently the same persons were indifferently call'd presbyters and bishops ; and then such as are now call'd bishops , were styled apostles , but afterwards this title was left to those that were properly apostles : and on others , who sometimes had it , the name of bishop was impos'd . to the same effect , is that passage , which is cited by amalarius from the reputed ambrose (m) , wherein he shews , that they who were ordain'd to govern the churches after the apostles ( by which , says salmasius , he means others besides the twelve ) finding themselves not equal to their predecessors in miracles or other qualifications , would not challenge to themselves the name of apostles ; but the titles of bishops and presbyters they thus divided . that of presbyters they left to others , and that of bishops was appropriated to them , who had the power of ordination : so that they presided over churches in the fullest right . this place is quoted several times by salmasius (n) , but how contrary it is to what he endeavours to establish , is very obvious : for it plainly intimates , that there were always prelates in the christian church , only with this difference . the first of them excell'd the rest in gifts , and were call'd apostles : but their successors finding how disproportion'd their merit was to that title , thought fit to decline it : and then they began to be distinguished by the name of bishops . yet both were of the same order , and govern'd with the same authority . this is not the only instance wherein salmasius has done right to the truth , with disservice to his cause . for in his dissertation against petavius (o) , he proves , that there were many secondary apostles , as we call them for distinction sake , which were the disciples of the first : and these , he tells us (p) govern'd the churches with equal right and power , and in the same manner as the first had done . he also ascribes to them the same place over presbyters , that bishops had in succeeding times (q) . so that , according to him , there were always prelates since the days of christ , differing indeed from one another in name and circumstance in the first ages , but not in authority . amongst the prelates of the first century . i think we may reckon the apostles of the churches mention'd by s. paul , 2. cor. 8.23 . for they are said to be the glory of christ : which character , i suppose , they did not beat , because they were employ'd in going on errands ; but as they were the representatives of christ , in governing such parts of his kingdom , as were assign'd to their especial care . the ground of this interpretation i take from 1 cor. 11.7 . where we read , that man is the image and glory of god : which words , in the judgment of theodoret (r) , are not to be understood with respect either to the body of the man , or to his soul , but to the dominion that he hath from god over the creatures . in the same verse we read , that the woman is the glory of the man. the wife is the glory of her husband . she is , says theodoret (s) , as it were the image of that image : and as such , she hath power over the rest of the family . thus when these apostles are said to be the glory of christ , this implies something of jurisdiction , which they receiv'd from him . and when they are said to be the apostles of the churches , the meaning is not , that they were their messengers , but their spiritual pastors . they were their spiritual rulers , and our lord's vicegerents , acting in his name and by his authority . agreeable to what has been said , is this observation of s. jerom (t) , that in process of time , besides those whom the lord had chosen , others were ordain'd apostles , as these words to the philippians declare : i suppos'd it necessary , sayes s. paul , to send to you epaphroditus my brother and companion in labour , and fellow-souldier , † but your apostle , phil. 2 , 25. but you wonder , that after s. jerom , i should cite this place for a proof , that epaphroditus was bishop of philippi , and at first you could hardly believe , that i was in earnest : as if it were now such a fault to follow s. jerom , who , when you have occasion to press him into your service , is as learned and pious a father , as any the churches ever own'd . s. jerom is not singular in what he says of epaphroditus : for hilary tells us (u) , he was by the apostle made the apostle of the philippians : which in his language signifies , that he was their bishop (w) . and with him agrees pacianus (x) and theodoret (y) also , whose notions about the primitive government of the church are usually very clear and coherent . if you consult writers of greatest fame amongst the assertors of presbyterian parity , you will find them granting , that epaphroditus was something more than a mere messenger . blondel (z) reckons him amongst the chief governors of churches ; and for this he quotes pacianus , jerom , and theodoret , as i have done ; and if you can hardly believe him to be in earnest , you may take the same exception against walo messalinus ; for says he (a) epaphroditus was call'd the apostle of the philippians , as paul was said to be the apostle of the gentiles , and peter the apostle of the circumcision . he mentions the contrary opinion , but then he adds (b) , to me it seems to have no appearance of truth , since i know that the word apostle , is never us'd by s. paul , nor by any other apostles and evangelists , but for a sacred ministery . but this observation of walo , you say , will hold no water ; for you take it , that john 13.16 . in which the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is us'd in a common promiscuous sense , and render'd so by our translators , stands impregnable as a plain , direct , and unavoidable instance against him . that is , you are now assur'd , that whereas this word is us'd about fourscore times in the new testament , in one of them it signifies any common messenger . and if you could demonstrate this as impregnably as you have asserted it with confidence , it would be no great matter of triumph . yet this is more than i can grant , you have perform'd . for in the place you insist upon , our saviour speaks thus to his disciples , he that is sent , or an apostle , is not greater than he that sent him . as if he had said , ye my apostles , that i mean to settle governours of the church , are not greater than i , from whom you have your commission , and by whom you are constituted . that is the paraphrase of the learned dr. hammond on those words of our lord ; and as it is very agreeable to the context , so it shews to what little purpose you have employ'd this place of scripture . nor have you any better success , but less shew of reason , where you tell me , that notwithstanding epaphroditus is in greek call'd an apostle , yet it no more follows from thence that he was a bishop , than that joseph the mittendary , as you call him , in epiphanius , was on this account a bishop : for you might as well have urg'd , that for the same reason letters dimissory must have been bishops also , because they were sometime commonly styled apostles (c) . i think no man that reads the accounts of the mittendary in epiphanius , and of epaphroditus in the epistle to the philippians , can form the same notions of both ; for 't is manifest , that one was an officer under a jewish patriarch , and the other a christian minister of great eminence . the same general title indeed was common to both ; but it was not so applied at the time , about which we are in debate ; nor by those writers , from whose style and expressions , the thing in controversie must be determin'd . jacobus gothofredus (d) , who searched in to the original of the jewish apostles , of which epiphanius speaks , and was willing to carry it as high as possible , could not find them mention'd by any author before the fourth century . none of the pen-men of the new testament , no ecclesiastical writer of the first age calls any man an apostle , who was not a pastor of the christian church , and of an order superior to that of presbyters . and consequently , he that was styled the apostle of the philippians , was their bishop . by which word i always understand a prelate , when i give no intimation of the contrary , or of leaving its signification undetermin'd . you think the connexion and coherence carry it for your sense , and that epaphroditus was no more than a mittendary , because s. paul says of him , that he ministred to his wants . but if castellio has well expressed the sense of these words (e) , they will afford no such inference as you have drawn from them ; but signifie , that epaphroditus was sent to supply the place of s. paul at philippi . and much may be said for this exposition : but it is i confess , out of the common road of interpreters . and to what you have objected ; i farther answer ; that epaphroditus may be said to minister to the wants of s. paul , who received of him the things of the philippians (f) , and yet it doth not appear from scripture , that they sent him ; much less is there any probability , that if he was sent by them (g) , he was for that reason dignified with the highest title that belong'd to any officer in the christian church . there is another reason for that title , for s. paul calls him his brother (h) , in such a manner , as he does no man who was not his colleague . he also calls him his companion in labour , and his fellow souldier : not for attending him doubtless in carrying contributions from place to place ; but because he was engaged with him in the same spiritual work of the ministry . i make no question , but it is he that is styled by s. paul his toke-fellow (i) . and the word so translated (k) , in nonnus (l) , signifies an equal . in the glossary of philoxenus , and in the vulgar latin , 't is render'd by compar . and by compar , says reinesius (m) , is meant a fellow or companion in any office and condition ; and he shews , that so it is us'd in plautus . this learned man also gathers from phil. 4.3 . compar'd with chap. 2. v. 25. that the apostle intimated , that epaphroditus was his colleague or partner in the same function : and if so , he was not only in name , but in reality an apostle . i am not ignorant , that in this explication , i dissent from a learned author , who thinks it sounds too harsh , that persons should be call'd apostles of those from whom they had no mission . but it should be consider'd , that the sense of words , of such especially as are terms of art , often varies from their original signification ; so that we ought not to put such limits on their interpretation , as are not consistent with their use . and certain it is , that when apostles are mention'd under the relation they bear to any church or people , they are said to be the apostles of those by whom they were not sent (n) . they that are styled by clemens romanus (o) the apostles of us , are not such , as deriv'd their authority either from the romans , in whose name he writes ; or from the corinthians , to whom he directs his epistle , but from christ . the apostle of the gentiles (p) had not his commission from them . the apostles and angels of the churches , which i take to be of the same order , were not their messengers , but their principal governors . so exactly does it agree with the language of those times , that he that was the bishop of the philippians , should be call'd their apostle . 't is true , s. paul salutes several bishops at philippi (q) . but these in the syriack version , as mr. selden tells us (r) , in the arabick of erpenius , are said to be presbyters . and that they were no more than presbyters , we are agreed . many of the fathers , particularly jerom (s) , chrysostom (t) , theodoret (u) , and oecumenius (w) , had the same opinion of them ; for which they give this reason , that of one city , there might be no more than one prelatical bishop . and for such a bishop , we need not here be at a loss , having consider'd under what character it was , that epaphroditus was sent to the philippians . chap. vii . apostolical authority was communicated to timothy : who was bishop of ephesus . we have seen that the name and office of apostles was confer'd on many that were not of the twelve . i come now to shew , that there were others of the same order , or to whom the same authority was convey'd , who are not mention'd in scripture under the denomination of apostles . such are timothy and titus , and the angels of the asiatick churches , to which more may be added ; but on these i chiefly insist . that apostolical or episcopal authority was communicated to timothy may be collected from hence , that he had full power of ordination . this appears from the advice that was given him (x) , to lay hands suddenly on no man. that is , not to admit any into a sacred function , without a due examination . for so i interpret the words with theodoret (y) , photius (z) , and several others , both ancient and modern writers . some learned men , i know , put another sense on them , and by laying on of hands , understand the absolution of offenders from ecclesiastical censures : but i cannot find in scripture , that the reconciliation of penitents to the peace of the church was perform'd by that ceremony . the context leads us to the exposition i have given : for in the precedent verses the apostle treats of spiritual officers . he speaks of the double honour or maintenance , which is due to those that rule well , and shews the reason of it . he speaks of the complaints against others that are criminal , and of the publick reproof and censure of them . and to prevent the scandal that results from the miscarriages of such , he directs timothy to lay hands suddenly on no man : not to be too hasty in ordaining of any , lest by his precipitance , he should admit unworthy persons into the ministry , and partake with them in their sins . and from hence we may learn , what high trust was impos'd in him . for in the church committed to his care , the admission of persons into ecclesiastical offices , was wholly committed to him , and he was the sole judge of their qualifications . there were many presbyters where he resided , yet were they not joyn'd in commission with him ; and that they might not act as his equals in the administration of the government , is manifest from hence , that it is not said by s. paul to any of them , against my work-fellow whom i left amongst you , receive not an accusation ; but it was said to him , against an elder receive not an accusation , but before two or three witnesses , 1 tim. 5.19 . which words plainly import the office of a judge . for , as (a) morinus observes , from hence we may gather , that three things belong'd to timothy , in which the office of a judge amongst the romans was contain'd . he might grant an action to those that petition'd for it , and prescribe the form of it : he might sit upon examination of matters in debate , and hear them pleaded ; and he might determine them , by passing sentence . presbyters therefore , as well as others , being liable to his sentence were subject to his authority . and this the apostle intimates , where he adjures him to be impartial in his proceedings with them , and not to be warpt by his affections or respect of persons , 1 tim. 5.21 . we find not that any offending presbyters were left in a condition to put in exceptions against his authority ; or that , if they were rebuk'd by him before all , they might make the following reply , we believe our doctrine to be true , or know our actions just ; but if not , we are not accountable to you for them : for you , sir , and we stand upon the same level : if therefore you would make us subject to your censures , you take too much upon you , and usurp a power to which you have no right . yet if some modern opinions had prevail'd and were well grounded , that answer they might have given him , or they might have appeal'd from him , to their own colleagues in the consistory , or to their own private congregations . but that no such thing could be done , is evident , because it would have rendred the apostles instructions useless and impertinent . he had not only power to correct and punish miscarriages : he was also oblig'd to give suitable encouragement to the industrious . let the elders that rule well , says the apostle , be accounted worthy of double honour , especially they that labour in the word and doctrine , 1 tim. 5.17 . i know that the meaning of these words has been mightily controverted by dissenting parties , and that they have been made a foundation by some for the establishment of such a sort of officers , as before the last age were never heard of in the christian world : but though they yield no such consequence as these men would draw from them , yet in my opinion , they may give some light to the matters before us , and afford us a pattern of what was practis'd in the primitive times . for , 1. all presbyters were not then usually employ'd in labouring in the word and doctrine ; as will be manifest to any that will but consult what mr. le moyne (b) has written on this subject , and the authorities mention'd by him . but there was no reason to fear , that the people should want instruction , when the bishop , who preach'd himself , had many presbyters under him , and employ'd some in teaching , some in administring the sacraments , some in visiting the sick , and comforting the weak and afflicted , some in enquiring into scandals , and assisting in the affairs of government . and the inconveniencies that might arise from emulation , if every one had been judge in his own cause , were best avoided by the authority of the bishop who assign'd work and encouragement to them suitable to their several capacities . 2. in the primitive times the bishop was intrusted with the goods of the church (c) , and out of the contributions that were made to him , he appointed subordinate officers to supply the wants of private christians . he was also obliged to make provision out of the same for his clergy . and for this , timothy was a precedent , whose duty it was , to take care that the labourer should have his reward , and that the elders , who rul'd well , should receive double honour , or a double portion out of the publick stock . they depended on him therefore for their maintenance , as well as in the exercise of their function . but that the force of what i have argued from the pre-eminence and power of timothy , may the better appear , i am desirous , his case may be compar'd with the following instance , in which we are alike disinteressed . nicocles was advis'd by isocrates (d) to confer honors on the most deserving , and to commit the management of affairs to men of worth , as knowing , that the miscarriages of those that were in such a station , would be imputed to him . he was also advis'd to take cognizance of complaints , and to judge indifferently , according to the merits of the cause between contending parties . and this was enough to satisfie any one that had never heard the name of nicocles , and knew nothing of his character , that he had the administration of government ; and that the persons about whom he receiv'd this counsel , were his subjects . in like manner , when we reflect on the direction that was given to timothy concerning the ordination of ministers , and the danger he incurr'd , if he did not observe it ; when we also consider how he was requir'd to proceed , if an action were brought before him against a presbyter , and what care he was oblig'd to take of the elders that ruled well , we have reason to conclude , that they were not his equals , but under his inspection and authority . that timothy had episcopal authority , is manifest , i think , from what has been said : and that he was bishop of ephesus , appears from hence , that there he resided (e) , that he might exercise his apostolical power in such manner as we have seen , and that he might charge some , who were persons doubtless that had right to preach the gospel , to teach no other doctrine . the apostle intended not , as m. daille observes (f) , that he should act feebly with those that were so bold , as to corrupt a thing so important : he does not say , that he should pray or exhort them , or that he should remonstrate to them , or simply that he should conjure them , not to depart from the truth . he uses a term that implies more vigour , and requires him to denounce ‡ to them , that they teach no other doctrine than the apostles did . for to denounce , is to act with authority , in the name , and instead of another , whose person one sustains , or whose minister he is , and with a menace of punishment to the disobedient . and from hence , says our author (g) it appears , that timothy was left by s. paul in the church of ephesus , with authority to govern it , and to censure and depose even preachers themselves . and if so , i think , we may safely conclude , that they were under his jurisdiction , notwithstanding any thing this learned man added for the service of his hypothesis . what i have said of the office of timothy fully agrees with the sentiments of the ancients . for by some of them , he is styl'd an apostle (h) : by some a bishop (i) , and both meant the same thing . others speak more plainly , and say , that he was bishop of ephesus (k) : and of this belief generally were the fathers . nevertheless , against that which they so universally receiv'd , you produce several objections , and refer me for more to mr. prynne , whose treatise intitled the vnbishopping of timothy and titus † &c. came lately to my hands ; and now i am able to tell you , that he is a very promising author . he pretends that he has refuted the arguments for episcopacy , taken from the examples of timothy and titus , in an irrefragable manner (l) , and that he hath shaken the rotten pillars , and undermin'd the sandy foundations of the high towring hierarchy , and left it without any divine prop , to support it longer (m) . this work he dedicates to the archbishops of canterbury and york , proposing to them two things (n) one of which he modestly leaves to their choice . 1. he challenges them to give him a speedy , solid , satisfactory answer , which must be pretty difficult , if , as he tells them , he had made it manifest , that their founding their prelacy on a divine right ( on which grounds only they were willing to continue in their station ) was a mere absurd ridiculous fiction . 2. in defect of this , he requires them to relinquish their places , and not any more to advance themselves above their fellow-ministers (o) . and for this demand , there might have been some reason , had he demonstrated every thing of which he boasts so confidently , with as much certainty , as he hath from abundance of quotations and examples both foreign and domestick (p) , that bishops may dye of the plague , as well as other folk , notwithstanding their rochets , miters , crofiers (q) , to the confusion of those arrogant prelates that think otherwise . but i was soon convinced that no great matter was to be expected from him : for , not far from the beginning of his treatise , he argues that timothy was no bishop , because he was a novice (r) : so he supposes he must needs be , who was a young man (s) . yet afterwards he expresly acknowledges , that he was a bishop (t) ; but so , that other bishops were his equals . he had before told us , that this same novice was a fellow-helper and co-partner with s. paul in the apostleship (u) , and consequently , in the judgment of all men , if we may take his word for it , of a degree superior to that of a bishop . nevertheless within a few pages after , he makes him inferior to presbyters (w) , because he was obliged to intreat them as fathers , and to pay them double honor , and not to receive it from them . and thus he snatches at any thing that may free him from a present inconvenience , and at his pleasure timothy must be such a novice as is unfit to bear the office of a bishop : at another time this is a depressing of him , who was qualified for , and exalted to , a higher dignity . one while he must be superior , then inferior , and afterwards equal to the same officers . and this discovers such a flaw in the judgment of the author , to say no worse of him , that i cannot but admire , that some persons of greater sense seem to have the same good opinion of his book , which himself had ; whereas 't is a rapsody of incoherent stuff , and for the most part very trifling . yet he hits on some things that may deserve our notice , and they shall not be neglected . the common refuge of dissenters that are concern'd for the unbishoping of timothy ( to speak in mr. prynne's language ) is , that he was an extraordinary officer , and evangelist . he is expresly so styled , says mr. prynne (x) : he is in direct terms call'd an evangelist , say the assembly of divines (y) , and that he was so , says smectymnuus , is clear from the letter of the text (z) , 2 tim. 4 , 5. yet neither in this place , nor in any other part of scripture , is that to be found which these men affirm with so much confidence . 't is true , timothy was admonish'd to do the work of an evangelist , but this he might , and yet be no evangelist . daniel did the work of the king (a) , and yet was no king. the levites did the work of all israel (b) , yet were they not all israel . and timothy , who , as m. prynne says truly , was a partner with s. paul in the apostleship (c) , which virtually contains in it all other ecclesiastical offices , might perform the work of other ministers , and not be of their order , nor come under their denomination . this has been said upon a supposition , that he was requir'd in this place to do the work of an evangelist properly so called , which i cannot grant . for an evangelist , according to eusebius (d) , was a person that preached the gospel where it had not been receiv'd , or to those who had not heard of it before . and in this sense timothy could not be an evangelist to the church of ephesus , which he was obliged to instruct and govern : and when he was so , it had flourished for many years (e) . i conclude therefore , that the word evangelist in this verse ought to be taken in a larger sense , and then to do the work of an evangelist , will signifie in general to preach the word , as it is expressed , v. 2. and if this interpretation , which has been embraced by many learned men , be admitted , it leaves no ground for the exception that hath been under consideration . but timothy and titus , you say , were co-founders of churches with the apostle paul , and from hence arose their visitorial power , which consequently was peculiar and extraordinary . that is , you have assum'd a liberty of bestowing on persons what titles you please , and then you draw from them such inferences as you think expedient . this you call arch-work , whose strength , you say , lies in the combination † . a church as we have seen had been founded at ephesus several years before the government of it was committed to timothy , and how he could be a co-founder , i do not understand . i suppose , he neither laid the old foundation over again , nor raz'd it , that he might lay another . if you call him a co-founder of that church , only because by his preaching he increas'd the number of believers ; the presbyters that were before his coming , were for the same reason co-founders also : for doubtless they were employ'd in the same work : but that they and others of the same rank , by converting infidels , and adding them to the church , started up into an higher order , than that of which they were before , is what , i think , was never yet heard of in the christian world. philip the evangelist laid the foundation of a church at samaria (f) ; but by doing this , he gained no new jurisdiction ; he did not obtain by it the power of imposition of hands which the apostles had : nor any authority over presbyters , but remain'd a deacon as he was before . if frumentius had not been ordain'd a bishop , his planting churches amongst the indians , or more properly the ethiopians (g) could not have made him one . nor did his diligence in that work render his office incommunicable : but the authority , he had , to constitute and govern priests and deacons , was convey'd to others after his death , and , as ludolphus will inform you (h) , he had successors in ethiopia to this very age. let us now suppose , that timothy had founded the church of ephesus , it doth not follow , as we have seen , that his authority was extraordinary . yet in your opinion he could not be a bishop , unless his office had related to a church already planted , for that you make the condition of episcopal charge . but how groundless this conceit is , may appear from what has been said , and particularly , from that known passage of clemens romanus (i) , where he says expresly that the apostles ordain'd some to be bishops of those that afterwards should believe . what bishops he speaks of , is not here the question . they were such as you approve , and they were constituted bishops of those , who , at that time , were unbelievers . but that bishops , who have commission to preach the gospel , have power to preach it to believers only : or if they preach it to infidels , that for that purpose they should either forfeit their former office , or need another , is so absurd , that to mention it , is a sufficient confutation of it . another of the objections , which you advance against the episcopacy of timothy , is , that he is not styled a bishop in scripture (k) . on this mr. prynne also insists , and calls it an infallible argument (l) . yet what he pronounces so like an oracle , signifies no more , than if one should attempt to prove , that presbyters neither are , nor ought to be called ministers ; because in scripture they are never mention'd under that title : or that baptism and the supper of the lord , neither are , nor may be called sacraments ; because that name is not ascribed to them in any part of scripture . the truth is , if we must always use the words of scripture , and no other , in treating of religious or ecclesiastical affairs , all translations of it ought to be rejected . it should be read to the people only in the original , and sermons should be made to them in greek and hebrew , which i suppose would not be much for their edification . you farther urge , that timothy could not be bishop of ephesus , because the stay he made there , was only upon the desire of the apostle , and did not arise from the duty of his place (m) . but what if he first took on him the peculiar charge of the church of ephesus immediately after s. paul besought him to remain there , could he not be a bishop of it , unless he was under an antecedent obligation to that residence ? or if he did it before ( which is improbable ) might he not be exhorted to the performance of a thing which was incumbent on him by his office ? the apostle , you know , beseeches the romans to present their bodies a living sacrifice , holy and acceptable unto god (n) . he beseeches the corinthians to speak the same thing (o) . he beseeches the thessalonians to walk worthy of god (p) , and buodias and syntiche to be of the same mind in the lord (q) . and from these instances it is manifest , that things may be duties on another account , when he makes them the matter of his exhortation . you fancy however that timothy could be no standing officer at ephesus , because , as you tell me , his stay and business there are limited to the apostles return (r) : for which you quote 1 tim. 1.3 . compar'd with chap. 3. v. 14.15 . chap. 4. v. 13. and this gives me occasion to shew , 1. that where s. paul acquaints timothy with his hopes to see him at ephesus (s) , he speaks as under some uncertainty , for being acted by the holy ghost , says theoophylact (t) , he knew not whither that would carry him . theodoret (u) observes , that however the spirit reveal'd to the divine prophets and apostles whatever was expedient , yet did they not foresee all things . and it was as consistent with the dignity of s. paul , not certainly to foresee , whether he should visit timothy or not , as to be doubtful concerning the time of his coming , when he had this in his hopes . these things , says he , write i unto thee , hoping to come unto thee shortly : but if i tarry long , that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thy self in the house of god. some necessary cause might detain him , besides his expectation (w) : and it doth not appear , that he took any journey to ephesus , after the writing of this epistle . 2. when he says , till i come , give attendance to reading , to exhortation , to doctrine (x) , this does not signifie , that if he did come to timothy , his attendance on these things must then cease , or his work be at an end : but the apostle might think by such an admonition , to excite his diligence , when he was absent from him : or else he might hereby intimate , that when he saw him , he would communicate to him farther instructions . 3. when the second epistle was sent to timothy , he was neither remov'd from his authority , nor the place where he resided , when the first was written (y) . for in several passages of both epistles , the same rules of discipline are given him . he is advis'd in both to avoid the same errors and miscarriages , and warn'd against the same persons . hymeneus and alexander are mention'd in both under marks of infamy (z) ; and this last , is that alexander who was drawn out by the multitude when the tumult was at ephesus . acts 19.33 . 't is likewise observable , that in the second epistle to timothy , chap. 4. v. 19. the apostle salutes prisca and aquila , whom he left formerly at ephesus , acts 18.19 . he also salutes the houshold of onesiphorus (a) , who ministred unto him whilst he was at ephesus , as timothy knew very well , 2. tim. 1.18 . yet says smectymnuus , to whom you refer me , paul was so far from setling timothy at ephesus , that he rather continually sent him up and down : for which they quote 1 thess . 3.1 , 2. acts 18.5 . & 19.22 . & 20.4 . you also tell me (b) , that we find timothy as an itinerant officer often going from place to place upon occasion : and from hence you would infer , that he was not a bishop . but there is no sufficient ground for any such consequence , as may appear if it be consider'd , 1. that presbyters and deacons were sometimes engaged in travels , and that without any loss of their character . philip was appointed at jerusalem to serve tables (c) ; yet he did not relinquish his office , but remain'd one of the seven , when he went down to samaria (d) , and when he was at caesarea (e) . and i know nothing in scripture , that confines bishops perpetually within their own dioceses , or limits their absence from them to a certain number of days or miles . ordinarily indeed , they are obliged to reside where their peculiar charge is : yet great occasions , and their care for the publick good may sometimes call them thence . and diligent as they ought to be to instruct and govern that part of the church which is assign'd to them , they may not forget the relation they bear to the whole . primis ecclesiae temporibus , says a learned man (f) , omnes episcopi praeter peculiarem curam propriae sibi ecclesiae , in solidum sibi commissam , ut loquitur cyprianus , etiam universam , suo quodam modo curabant . these are the words of casaubon , and alstedius (g) was so affected with them , that he hath transcribed them into his supplement of chamier's panstratia , and about two hundred lines more verbatim , all very near together , without any mention of the author , being willing , it seems , that they should pass for his own . 2. the journeys mention'd in the smectymnuan objection , were taken before timothy was requested to remain at ephesus , as may be gather'd from hence , that s. paul left him there , when he went into macedonia (h) : but this could not be the first time of his going thither ; for then timothy was a companion of his travels (i) , and 't is probable that he had not been yet at ephesus . neither was it the second time : for he had then sent timothy before him into macedonia (k) , where afterwards they were both together (l) . nor yet the third ; for then to avoid the conspiracy of the jews , he return'd in great haste from achaia to macedonia (m) ; and departing thence , timothy , who waited for him at troas , attended on him to jerusalem . and from these reasons which i have briefly mention'd , but which bishop pearson (n) hath fully illustrated and confirm'd , we may conclude , that timothy was not desir'd by s. paul to remain at ephesus before this apostle was brought to rome : nor till after he had written his epistles to the romans , corinthians , philippians , colossians , thessalonians , philemon , and the hebrews (o) . what account therefore soever of the travels of timothy may be collected from any of those epistles , or the acts of the apostles , it is consistent enough with his setled residence in his diocese , when the church of ephesus was committed to his administration . i do not remember any other material objection against what i have said concerning this subject . so that i make no doubt still to affirm , that timothy was an ordinary pastor of the church ; and thus much in effect is acknowledged by some learned presbyterians , who say he was the first presbyter or president of the presbytery . and if they would allow such presidents as have the full power of ordination , which he had presidents with authority equal to his , and which , as cameron gathers from 1 tim. 5.19 (p) , was greater than was consistent with the office of other presbyters . presidents that are so for life , as ludovicus cappellus (q) thinks , they originally were : then , if they please , they may call them presidents still , and i shall not contend about the name , if we are agreed about the thing . but since you and many others have not made the concessions i have mention'd , i shall farther prove , that the office of timothy was such as i have describ'd , by the following arguments . 1. if it had been intended that the authority committed to timothy and others of his rank should be temporary , either this may appear from the nature of the thing , or it might have been expected that we should have had some notice of it in the scripture . for if we may take the liberty , without any grounds to fasten on it the title of temporary or extraordinary , we may by the same means soon put an end to any constitutions whatsover . but there is nothing in the nature of this authority , that may hinder its continuance : nothing in the scripture that declares it to be abrogated : we may conclude therefore , that as it is fit to be continued , so it was design'd to be so in all succeeding times . 2. we have no reason to believe , that s. paul would alter his own constitutions without a cause ; or that , without any necessity , he would put the government of a church into a new model , and divert the course of discipline from that channel in which it ought to run in all ages . if therefore he sent timothy as an extraordinary commissioner to interpose in the affairs of ephesus , we may suppose this to have been either , 1. because there was some extraordinary work , which none but extraordinary officers could perform : or , 2. because there were no ministers at ephesus , or such only as were unfit for government : but neither of these can well be imagin'd : not the first , for the work was no other than what hath or might have been perform'd by bishops ever since : not the second , for there were presbyters at ephesus of eminent gifts , such as the holy ghost had made overseers (r) . it seems improbable then , that these were constituted supreme standing rulers of the church , or that the work for which they were so well qualified , was so soon taken out of their hands . particularly it seems improbable , either that they had the power of ordination , or that it would have been transfer'd from them to a stranger , who came to visit them , but was not of their number , and that without any ground or reason given , or any notice taken of them , as concern'd in the matter . flaminius did a thing acceptable to the greeks , when he gave them permission to live after their own laws : but if he had afterwards sent amongst them some governour with power and commission to over-rule and controul their magistrates , and to disturb that polity which had been established by his concession , by such changes and turns of affairs he would have introduc'd and encouraged great irregularities , and put his former admirers upon upbraiding his levity , or questioning his veracity . and let us now suppose , if you please , that such elders were constituted by s. paul at ephesus , as were inabled and obliged to perform the highest acts of ecclesiastical authority , as supreme ordinary pastors , and were design'd also to be a pattern for following ages : let us farther suppose , that an officer extraordinary had afterwards been left amongst them with commission from that apostle to alter the measures they had taken , and to suspend the exercise of a principal part of their function , by taking it wholly to himself , and that without any miscarriage laid to their charge ; you may easily perceive what reflections this might have occasioned , and that such proceedings would have been so far from setting things in order , that , one has reason to think , they would have put them into greater confusion . 3. if such eminent presbyters as were at ephesus , and a church so flourishing as that of ephesus was , had a governour put over them , this ought not to be esteemed an extraordinary thing ; for doubtless other presbyters and churches , whose exigences were greater , had so too . and if such a subordination of officers was necessary when the apostles were alive , i cannot imagine why an end should afterwards be put to it , when there was more occasion of it than ever . some of the most learned opposers of episcopacy , grant , that timothy and others of his rank , govern'd churches with the same plenitude of power , as bishops afterwards did ; who , as they say , were rais'd in the second century for the cure of schism . but if , in the common sense of christians , prelacy was useful to that purpose , as 't is supposed , this must have obliged them to preserve it , when it had been introduced amongst them by such as were directed by the spirit of god : and it could be no great argument of their wisdom , if they laid aside that which was of divine original , and were very shortly afterwards put upon contriving , how to restore it by a humane invention . 4. it seems very improbable , that the apostle should write two epistles to timothy , only to direct him in the temporary administration of the affairs of a place , where he was only to make a transient visit . but if from the examples we have of presbyters , and the rules that are laid down for them in scripture , we may gather , that such ought to be continued : then may we also conclude , from the example of timothy , from the authority he had , and the rules that were given to him for the exercise of it , and which are of perpetual use , that the office with which he was vested , ought to be preserv'd in the church till the end of the world. 5. as we learn from the scripture , that timothy resided at ephesus , so it may something confirm what i have said of his relation to that place , if there he ended his days . and this is what is testified by sophronius (s) , who tells us , that there he gloriously suffer'd martyrdom : but more fully by an ancient writer in photius (t) , who acquaints us , that he was put to death at the detestable festival called the catagogium , which he would have abrogated . 6. after his death we find onesimus in his place , who is said to be bishop of ephesus by ignatius (u) his co-temporary , and by whom he is represented as a person of admirable charity , and a worthy pattern and great blessing to his flock . polycrates was another of his successors (w) , and it were easie to reckon many more . if therefore your standard of extraordinaries be true and of any use , it must be granted , that his office was not of their number , and that the inferences you draw from his doing the work of an evangelist , and from your supposition of his being a co-founder , are groundless : for 't is in vain to advance little conjectures against plain matter of fact. chap. viii . apostolical authority was communicated to titus , who was bishop of crete . i have said so much of timothy , that the less need be added concerning titus , who had been train'd up with him under the same spiritual father , and was employ'd in the same manner . they were both s. paul's fellow-labourers and partners in the apostolate (x) , and they were left under the same character , and with the same authority , the one at ephesus , and the other in crete . titus was left in crete , of which he was bishop , say the fathers : and one part of his episcopal power appears from the commission he had to ordain elders there in every city , tit. 1.5 . but say you (y) , the word there (z) which is render'd ordain , is the same that is us'd , acts 6.3 . in the matter of the deacons , who were appointed by the apostles ( not one of the apostles , but all ) and chosen by the people . and one might well admire , that the same word which is translated appointed in one place , should be rendred ordain'd in another ; but that titus is said to ordain , and not to appoint only , that it might look , as if it were a plain text for sole ordination . so that here is a heavy charge against the translators ; and perhaps never was any more groundless . for i pray sir , what did they mean , either by appointing or ordaining , but constituting ? and if all the apostles constituted the deacons which were chosen by the people , will it follow from the signification of this word , that titus might not constitute elders , unless they were chosen by the people ; or that he could not do it , unless he had colleagues to assist him , or was himself a multitude ? when the lord in the gospel is said to set a ruler over his houshold (a) , must the interpretation of this expression be , that he did it not without a previous election in the family , and with the concurrence of his equals ? and when we read , that pharaoh made joseph governour over egypt and all his house (b) , must the meaning of this be , that pharaoh and some partners with him in the thone did this , but not without the common consent of their subjects ? if these things be absurd , you may at your leisure reflect on the success of your criticism , and the justice of your censure . we have seen what right titus had to constitute elders : and if it be absurd to imagine , that all his care of them was to be employ'd in examining and admitting them into office , and none afterwards ; it will follow , that since the rules for their conversation are directed unto him , he had over them an episcopal authority . for as the command that was given to the master of a family , that his children and servants should keep the sabbath , was an argument that they were under his jurisdiction , which rendred him accountable for them : so when the precepts by which presbyters ought to govern their actions were addressed to titus , this signifies that he had power to see them executed , and offences against them prevented or punish'd . another argument of his episcopal power , may be taken from hence , that he is required to rebuke the disobedient and refractory with all authority (c) . that is , says beza (d) , with the highest authority , as an ambassador of god : and to let no man despise him : which last advice confirms beza's exposition of the former , and shews , that if titus would exercise the authority he had , that was sufficient to create a reverence for him amongst all that were committed to his care . but this i confess might seem very strange , had his orders or his proceedings against offenders been precarious , or some notions about the pastors of the church then prevail'd , which of late have been entertain'd . in the imperial law the following precept is given to a judge or president (e) , observandum est jus reddenti , ut se contemni non patiatur . and it is suitable enough to the condition of a magistrate : but if it be said , of what use could it be , to instruct a person to let no man despise him , who had no coercive force to vindicate himself from contempt , if any were inclin'd to throw it on him . to this i know no other answer can be given , than that the authority of bishops , however it was only spiritual , did in that age strike such an awe upon the minds of christians , that they were able to stop the mouths of false teachers (f) without any external violence , or deprive them of their followers , if these had any true sense of piety . their publick reproof of scandalous offenders was then very dreadful , and when they expell'd them from the church by their censures , this was justly esteem'd a sad presage of their future judgment . such censures , i suppose , were meant by the apostle , where he instructs titus (g) to reject a heretick after the first and second admonition : on which words dr. hammond hath this annotation , which is not vulgar , but in my opinion very rational . the first and second admonition , says he , here refers to the method prescrib'd by christ in proceeding against christian offenders , matth ▪ 18.15 . but in some circumstances differs from it . there is mention of a threefold admonition ; one by the injured person alone , a second by two or three taken with him , the third by the church : but here only a first and second admonition . the cause of this difference , is to be taken from the quality of the person to whom this epistle is written , titus a bishop , whereas there the speech is address'd to every private christian that is injured by any . here the first admonition of the bishop carries an authority along with it , far above that of the private person , and the two or three with him , and so may well supply the place of both those ; and then the second here will be parallel to the third there ; and so after that is despis'd or proved uneffectual , it is seasonable to proceed to censures , to excommunicate the contumacious . thus 2 cor. 13.2 . immediately after the second admonition deliver'd by s. paul , he tells the offenders he will not spare , and v. 10. he tells them , that this admonition is , that he may not proceed to excision or cutting off , which he there calls 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , taking away , the word ordinarily used in the canons for excommunication . the summ of what i have said of titus , is , that he had commission to constitute officers , and to govern with plenitude of power , presbyters as well as others being under his jurisdiction . he was requir'd to inflict ecclesiastical censures on the disobedient , and set things in order in many churches . his office therefore or power was episcopal . to prove this , i have not urged any thing from the postscript of the epistle to titus , and therefore i am not concern'd at your exception against it , or to enquire into its authority . what is manifest from the epistle it self , and confirm'd by the testimony of the fathers , is sufficient for my purpose , that however there were many churches in crete , yet they were govern'd by a single person , as their chief pastor or bishop . what you object against his episcopacy , from the multitude of cities in crete , looks like one of the efforts of mr. prynne , and is so confus'd , that i can make no coherent sense of it . you suppose that every church or congregation must have a bishop : for which you give no other reason , but that some are confident of it : and i confess , if matters between us had been to be determin'd by confidence , you had often put me to a loss . yet here i do not see what service it can do you . for i would demand , whether the bishop you assign to every congregation , was a mere presbyter , or a prelate ? if you say the first , what is it to the purpose , unless you could prove , that he was not subject to another pastor who had the charge of many congregations ? if the last , what is become of the cause for which you contend ? if titus , say you (h) , was a bishop over all the churches in crete , he was a bishop of bishops : that is , of prelatical bishops , as your words import ; and consequently , if they express your thoughts , you must believe that at that time there were such bishops . and now methinks , our controversie appears a little oddly : for the tables are turn'd , and you are got on the side of prelacy . you contend , that the cretian elders were prelatical bishops , when i cannot allow , that they were more than presbyters . i cannot be convinc'd , but that titus being left in crete , was the only bishop , in the modern sense of the word , of all the churches there . nor do i see any reason , why this should be thought inconsistent with an episcopal function . theodoret had eight hundred parishes under his care (i) , yet this did not cause a nullity in his ordination . and however there were many cities in scythia , yet anciently one bishop had the charge of them all (k) , without any loss of his episcopal office. inconveniences indeed may arise from such large extent of dioceses ; but this was not the case , when , as rabanus maurus tells us (l) , bishops govern'd whole provinces under the name of apostles ; or when titus remain'd in crete . for then 't is certain , there were many churches under his care and administration ; and by what title soever he was distinguish'd , it is not material , as to the nature and ends of government . but if he was bishop of so many churches , you would fain know , which was the church of the cretians , where he resided . to which i can say nothing , but that it seems probable he visited all the churches of his diocese , and resided chiefly in the metropolis . if this satisfies not your pang of longing , as i have no ability , so i have no inclinati to gratifie it any farther . for could i name with the greatest certainty the city where he commonly dwelt , you might also enquire , what part of that city , or what street he inhabited , and propose many other questions of the like importance , to which i am not prepar'd to give any reply . it is sufficient , that he was a pastor of many churches , and had authority over their presbyters and deacons : for if this be true , it strikes at the root of the presbyterian and independent opinions about church-government : and i know not what can be said in vindication of them , unless it be , that he was an extraordinary officer . this you insist on , and to prove it , you tell me he was an evangelist . but the scripture says of him no such thing . from the scripture indeed we learn , that philip was an evangelist (m) , and yet he wanted power , either to confirm those that were baptiz'd , or to ordain officers , by imposition of hands (n) . but titus could perform the last of these , which was the greater ; and consequently he was something more than an evangelist , and could be no less than an apostle , or a bishop . but that he may be reckon'd amongst the pastors extraordinary ▪ you likewise urge , that he was only left in crete , as the deputy or the delegate of the apostle , and that but for a time till he should have established churches in every city , and organiz'd them with elders , which having done , you say , 't is very probable that he return'd again to s. paul , to give an account of that affair ; and then , you think , his commission expir'd . not that you have read any such thing of him in scripture : but since he was oblig'd to act as the apostle had appointed , from hence , you collect , that his deputation was but temporary : and you might as well have concluded , that since it was the duty of presbyters and deacons , to walk as the same apostle appointed , or according to the rules he gave for their conversation , their offices also were temporary , and design'd for no long continuance . you think his case differ'd from theirs in this , that he was employ'd in frequent travels ; but in answer to that , i need only tell you , that his journeys to jerusalem , to macedonia , and to corinth , were undertaken and finished , before he was left in crete (o) ; that he died there , as we are inform'd by paulinus (p) and sophronius (q) : and that the government of the church has been episcopal in that island ever since his days . when i had proceeded thus far , i had the satisfaction to peruse some printed papers of an eminent person ; wherein amongst other things , he treats of this subject , and i was glad to find that i had not differ'd from the sentiments of so great a man , which he hath express'd in these words , we are not to suppose , says he , that the power of titus extended not to a jurisdiction over elders , when he had ordain'd them . for if any of those whom he had ordain'd , as believing them qualified according to the apostles rules , should afterwards demean themselves otherwise ; and be self-willed , froward , given to wine , can we believe that titus was not as well bound to correct them afterwards , as to examine them before ? and what was this power of ordination and jurisdiction , but the very same which the bishops have exercis'd ever since the apostles times ? but they , who go about to unbishop timothy and titus ; may as well unscripture the epistles that were written to them ; and make them only some particular and occasional writings , as they make timothy and titus , to have been only some particular and occasional officers . but the christian church , preserving these epistles , as of constant and perpetual vse , did thereby suppose the same kind of office to continue ; for the sake whereof , those excellent epistles were written : and we have no greater assurance that these epistles were by s. paul , than we have , that there were bishops to succeed the apostles in the care and government of the churches . chap. ix . apostolical authority was communicated to the angels mention'd revel . 1.20 . who were bishops of the asiatick churches . what timothy was at ephesus , and titus in crete , that were the angels mention'd revel . 1.20 . in their several dioceses : they govern'd the seven churches of asia with apostolical or episcopal authority . this is what you oppose , and one might therefore have expected from you another account of them , to which you would adhere ; but you fix upon nothing , a practice very common amongst many that are engaged with you in the same work , who combine indeed in their attempts against the truth , but without any steady principles , and in great confusion . amongst the rest , the assembly of divines tell us (r) , that these titles of angels are mysterious and metaphorical , and that it cannot not be safe or solid to build on them the structure of episcopacy . and yet they are not of the mind of the old alogians , who derided the revelation of s. john (s) , saying , of what advantage is it , that he talks of seven angels , and of seven trumpets ? they affirm , that this book is of singular use to christians to the end of the world (t) . they have also furnished us with annotations on it , such as they are ; and particularly without any he sitation , they give their interpretation of this expression , which yet they would have us believe , is so mysterious and obscure . as for their argument , that symbolical theology is not argumentative , it is no farther to be admitted , than as it signifies , that parables and figures are not to be stretched beyond the plain intention of any author : but if no determinate sense can be gather'd from them , this would make a great part of the holy scriptures useless to us , and leave us mightily in the dark concerning the institution of the sacrament of the lord's supper , which yet the reformed think , and that with good reason , they clearly apprehend . yet after all , we do not read of the mystery of the angels , but of the seven stars , of which the angels are the explication , and therefore must be suppos'd to be intelligible : and indeed there seems to be no difficulty in this , but what has been created by those that would amuse us with exceptions , that they may find some way to escape . you pretend not to have any certainty that the title of these angels was metaphorical . for what , say you (u) , if by the name of an angel , an angel properly so call'd should be understood ? should this be so , then farewel to any ground for diocesan bishops in the directions of the epistles to the angels . and should it not be so , you are not unprovided of other shifts : but if they succeed no better than this , the diocesans are safe enough . for to your quaere 'tis easie to reply , that these angels of the churches could not be celestial spirits , unless we may believe , that one of those spirits was faln and summon'd to repentance : that another of them had a name to live , but was dead : and that a third was wretched , and miserable , and poor , and blind , and naked : which , i think , is sufficiently absurd . but the revelation , you tell me , goes much upon the hypothesis and language of daniel ; and in daniel we read of the guardian angels of nations , and in such a manner , that what refers to the nations , or to their governours , is said of the angels themselves . which signifies nothing to the purpose , unless you were able to shew , that to charge the blessed angels with the sins of men , and call them to reformation of life hath a congruity with the prophetick scheme of daniel , or with the nature of those holy beings , who are so constant and chearful in their obedience to the divine will. walo messalinus (w) and some others affirm , that these angels were the churches themselves : and to comply with them , we must believe that the angels of the churches were the churches of the churches (x) which , i think , is no good sense . grotius reflecting on their exposition does justly charge it with a manifest contradicting of the holy scripture (y) , which declares that the candlesticks are the churches , and that the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches . but whither , says he , may not men be drawn by an itch of contradiction when they dare confound those things , which the spirit of god does so plainly distinguish ? yet i deny not that the instructions , which did immediatly relate to the angels were communicated by the spirit , not only to them , but to the churches also : it being fit that both should be made sensible how their duty and interest were combin'd ; and encourage one another in the performance of the things enjoin'd , and in carrying on the work of reformation with the greater vigour and application . if these angels were neither celestial spirits , nor the churches of asia themselves ; it cannot be imagin'd that they were any thing else but the pastors of those churches . yet this being suppos'd , some question has been made about their number , which is omitted , says smectymnuus , not without some mystery , lest we should understand by angel one minister alone and not a company . this you call a critical nicety . but i take it to be a prophane abuse of the holy scripture under a pretence of discovering a mystery . 't is said expresly in scripture that the seven stars are the angels : there were therefore just so many angels as there were stars . the churches also were seven , and every church had its distinct and peculiar angel ; and if any , notwithstanding this , deny that the number of the angels and churches was equal , they seem not in a capacity to be convinced of any thing by the clearest demonstration . as for the conceit , that every angel was a company , it is inconsistent with the scripture ; for the angels are not called constellations but seven stars . and says suidas , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . yet if these words sometimes happen to be us'd promiscuously , we ought not however to depart from their genuine and usual signification without necessity . such a necessity there is not here , for an angel no more properly signifies a colledge of angels than a man signifies a troop or a corporation . nor are the descriptions of the several angels applicable to a multitude , unless we will suppose that all the elders of the respective societies deserv'd the same particular reproof or commendation , which hath not the least shadow of truth . we read indeed , that the strong cattel before whom jacob placed his rods generally brought forth the speckled or ringstraked , and this we impute to a miracle , and question not the thing , because it is related by moses in the book of genesis (z) . but what should make all the presbyters of each of the seven churches have the same particular perfections or defects ; the same ornaments of mind , or stains and blemishes , i cannot imagine . i am sure no such thing is reveal'd in scripture , nor hath it any probability . yet i deny not that amongst the things that are written to the angels , there are some instructions mingled , in which others are immediatly concern'd (a) , and to whom they are addressed . and from hence smectymnuus and the assembly of divines argue , that every angel must be understood collectively . but they might have consider'd that sometimes in the holy scripture , discourses begun with one are diverted to many ; and with many , to one ; and that without any artificial transition . for example , s. paul in the fourth chapter of his epistle to the philippians , ver . 3. writes thus , i intreat thee yoke fellow . and he concludes his second epistle to timothy with these words ; the lord jesus christ be with thy spirit . grace be with you ; and one might as well infer from hence , that the philippians were a single person , and timothy a multitude , as conclude from the like instance , that every angel of the several asiatick churches was a presbytery . we have seen , that these angels were men , and not celestial spirits . we have also seen , that they were seven individual pastours , and not so many collective bodies . i farther add that they were distinguished by their eminence from all other ministers within their own precincts , and that constantly , as bishops of their respective churches . 1. these angels were distinguished by their eminence from all other ministers in their several churches . this is granted by beza (b) and some other learned presbyterians , and the thing is manifest . for if all the presbyters in these churches had been angels alike or without any difference in dignity or order , doubtless they would have born the same title , and then to have directed an epistle to any of them under the name of angel , would have been to as little purpose as to have dispatched away another letter with no other inscription but this , to a senatour of rome ; in both which cases no particular person would have thought himself concern'd . 2. these angels receiv'd not their office with condition that they should resign it before death , or shortly be degraded from it ; but they constantly retain'd their praeeminence . the christians did not distinguish their ordinary officers , as , some antiquaries observe (c) , the heathens did their priests , into such as were temporary and such as were perpetual or for life ; for none of them were temporary , but they were all obliged constantly to remain in their station unless any of them were deposed for their offences , or advanced into a higher order . the dignity , therefore , or authority of these angels was not limited to a certain number of days or years , but was communicated to them with a design that it should be continued in their persons . and that it was so may be gather'd also from hence , that there were duties prescrib'd in the epistles that were directed to them , which could not be perform'd but in their constant exercise of the same function . this is different from the account which is given of them by beza : for having suppos'd they were no more than presidents of the presbyteries without authority over them , he goes on to suppose that the office of presidents was ambulatory , passing from one presbyter to another in a circular motion . he tragically complains that it became fixed : for from hence , he says (d) , the oligarchical tyranny the top of which is the antichristian beast , had its original , to the destruction , not of the church only , but of the world. here is a heavy charge , you see , at which however one need not be concern'd , for the load falls on a chimera of his own ; his presidents , i mean , that had no being in or near the time he speaks of . yet if they had any existence before their late establishment , he produces nothing to prove , that they took their turns in this manner he describes , but groundless conjectures . he was under such fear that presidents or first presbyters might grow up into bishops or oligarchical tyrants , that he would allow them no long continuance in their station . for 't is probable , he thinks (e) , that their administration expir'd every week . and since he would have it so , he should have inform'd us , whether all that is said to have been done by the angels , which with him are first presbyters , or all that is prescrib'd to them , was or could be perform'd within the compass of a week : and if not , how it was applicable to them , when they had shifted their places , and were not consider'd under their former title ; or rather , whether the epistles were not addressed to the angels for the time being : and if so , how it came to pass , that the same actions are ascrib'd to all that were successively placed in the same chair . if he had consider'd these things , he had never troubled the world with his absurd conceit of circular presidents or weekly moderators . 3. these angels were bishops of the asiatick churches . for if they were distinguished from all other ministers in their several dioceses by their eminence and that constantly : we have reason to think it was rather after the manner of prelates , who are acknowledged by the adversaries of episcopacy to have govern'd the church in the following and succeeding ages , than as meer presidents , in beza's sense , of which there are no examples within a thousand years . mr. prynne's attempt to vnbishop them answers the rest of his performances . he says , as many of his brethren have also done , that ordinary presbyters are angels , and this he proves from rev. 1. 20. (f) the sense of which is the thing in question : and in his usual way of rhetorick he condemns the contrary opinion as a crazy conceit of a proud episcopal brain (g) . he hath advanced another assertion which is a little surprizing , and in which i presume you will hardly concur with him : he tells us , 't is evident beyond contradiction that the angels of god are all equal in order , power , dignity , office , degree , ministry (h) . and this , he says , is an unanswerable evidence of the equality of ministers by divine institution . he also informs us , that angels , being ministring spirits , have no need of lordships , mannors or possessions : and hence he takes occasion to express his indignation against the prelates for their palaces , mannors , lordships , possessions , miters , rochets , vestments . his book abounds with such stuff as this , which moves one to pity rather than expose his weakness . yet it was fit some notice should be taken of it , for the sake of those , that , to the prejudice of the truth , still have his person in admiration . but i return to the proposition from which he diverted me : and which i think may be thus confirm'd . 1. if these pastours that are called angels were only so styled , as they were presidents of the several presbyteries , then were they the angels of the presbyteries , but not of the churches ; which is directly contrary to what is said of them in the holy scripture . 2. they are said to be the seven stars in our lords right hand ver . 16. which signifies that they had such dignity and power as were not ascrib'd to any other officers in their respective churches : and if so , there is no question but our saviour approv'd their function , and would support those that were so near him in the discharge of it . 3. they were called angels in allusion to the practice of the jews , who attributed to their high priest the title of angel. for of him , i suppose , solomon speaks , where he says , suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin , neither say thou before the angel it was an error . eccl. 5.6 . i cannot think that solomon here advis'd a person that had bound himself by a vow , not to make this speech before the messiah or any ministring spirits ( as some interpreters conceive ) or not to attempt to delude with words any invisible beings . it may seem he was in no danger of that : but the royal preacher gives him caution that he should not satisfie himself , if , by his excuses , he could impose on the high priest , who was obliged to take cognizance of his vows (i) , but to remember that god would be an avenger of the falshood , that was acted before his vicegerent , however it was cover'd with the greatest art . that exposition and what i infer from it , may be confirm'd from the 42 d. chapter of isaiah ver . 19. where we find this expostulation , who is deaf as my messenger (k) ? but the the original may well be rendred , who is deaf as my angel ? and this doubtless was not an angel of light : nor can an inspir'd prophet be thought so stupid as the person was , against whom that complaint was made . his character is not so applicable to any as the high priest , whose duty indeed it was to understand the will of god and instruct others : but at that time , it seems , himself had great need of admonition , which yet he was in no readiness to receive . the like use of the word we meet with in malac. 2.7 . for i make no question , but what the prophet speaks there of the priest , is to be understood of the high priest , or , that it is he who is styled the angel (l) of the lord of hosts , at whose mouth the people were required to seek the law. and it may seem that the high priests were not only called angels , whilst they were inabled as the messengers of the almighty to reveal his mind by vrim and thummim , but after the period to which the cessation of these oracles is assign'd by josephus (m) himself . for diodorus siculus (n) speaking of the jews and their high priest , says , they esteem him an angel to convey to them the commands of god. and from what has been said , i collect , that there was an analogy between the jewish high priest , and every angel of the asiatick churches ; that both of them were governours in chief , and had their subordinate officers , and that the presbyters and deacons were subject to the one as the priests and levites were to the other . but , say you (o) , should it be yielded that the jews had any such practice to attribute the title of angel to their high priest , what could this amount to in our case , since every bishop is not a high priest in the sense of the jews ? for in their sense there could be but one , and then that one amongst the christians must be a pope . and to the pope you would do no small service , if you may be permitted to make inferences for him from this analogy ; for you stretch it as far as he desires , and beyond what is consistent with scripture and the common sense of christians in the best ages ; with both which it agrees , that there should be one bishop in a diocese , resembling the high priest within the bounds of his jurisdiction . farther than this , the similitude may not be extended , unless it be said , that as there is but one catholick church , which is the mystical israel , so mystically there is but one bishop . for all the bishops were anciently esteem'd as one ; and what was done by one in the due exercise of his office , was esteem'd the act of the whole colledge . a notion that supposes an equality of all bishops in their office and authority , and consequently is so far from affording any advantage to the popes , that it directly opposes their pretences , and has sometimes been us'd , to very good purpose , to prevent their usurpations and check their ambition . 4. the epistles directed to these angels are such as suppose them to have had jurisdiction over all others , both ministers and people , within their respective dioceses : and on this it is that i principally insist . our lord , says arethas (p) does by the angel treat with the church , as if by the master a person should discourse of one that is under his government : knowing that the master is wont to esteem those things as his own which are done by his scholars , whether they were worthy of honour or reproach . but he might have added , that a master could then only justly be charged with the irregularities of his scholars , when he had power , but did not exercise it , to prevent their miscarriages . and how much this is the case here may partly appear from this concession of blondel . the actions of the church , says that learned man (q) , whether they were glorious or infamous were imputed to the angels as their exarchs or chief governours . they were therefore more than moderators in a presbytery , and had full power to correct abuses . and this is what may be illustrated from the following instance , which i have chosen out of several that might be given . the angel of the church of pergamus is celebrated for his personal virtues . he dwelt where satan's seat was , and yet he held fast the name of christ , and denyed not the faith in those days when antipas the faithful martyr was slain . c. 2. v. 13. but some defect was imputed to him as a governour , i have a few things against thee , saith the lord , because thou hast them there that hold the doctrine of balaam , &c. so thou hast also them which hold the doctrine of the nicolaitans , which thing i hate , ver . 14 , 15. and from hence we may gather , that it was in his power to suppress those pernicious doctrines and sects that disturb'd the church , and for this purpose the concurrence of any coordinate officers was not necessary . he could not alledge , that he wanted authority , or that others controul'd him in his proceedings against enormities : but as it was laid to his charge alone , that he had not stopt the mouths of gainsayers : so he alone was warn'd to repent for this want of discipline , lest the lord should come quickly and fight against him with the sword of his mouth , ver . 16. since therefore this angel had full power of reforming abuses , since the defect of that reformation is intirely imputed to him : since there is not the least appearance that he had any collegues join'd in commission with him , whose votes were necessary for the performance of what was expected from him : and since he alone is represented as responsible for the miscarriages of the christians at pergamus , 't is manifest , that they were all under his jurisdiction . he might have subordinate officers , but he had no equals . if the angels of the churches had such power as i have ascrib'd to them , there is no ground to suspect that they unjustly usurp'd it . for if it be a good argument that the text it self of the old testament had not been corrupted by the scribes and pharisees , when our saviour and his apostles were upon earth , that neither of them laid it to the charge of those wicked men : we may conclude from the epistles directed to these angels , that our lord was not offended at the station which they had in the churches , since he censures their faults and makes that no part of them . but this is not all that may be said for it : he plainly signifies his approbation of it , both in condemning their former remisness , and in exciting them to greater vigour , in the exercise of their office. this agrees exactly with the historical accounts that we have of the first age , and particularly with what clemens alexandrinus (r) relates of s. john ; who , as he tells us , visited the regions adjacent to ephesus , partly that he might form churches , partly that he might add fit persons to the clergy , and partly that he might ordain bishops . and if there be any doubt remaining , of what quality they were ; it may be resolv'd from hence , that the bishop of a city not far from ephesus , is said to be a person placed over all (ſ) : which character could belong to a prelate only . and as it is probable that this prelate was the angel of the church of smyrna , so it is manifest from the transaction which i have mention'd , that those of his order were of divine or apostolical appointment . chap. x. objections against episcopacy , taken from the writings of the first century , consider'd . i have shew'd that the churches of jerusalem and philippi , of ephesus and crete , the churches of smyrna and pergamus , thyatira and sardis , philadelphia and laodicea , were govern'd by bishops in the first century : and one need but read the second and third book of eusebius his ecclesiastical history , or s. jerom's catalogue of ecclesiastical writers , to find that bishops then presided in the churches of antioch and rome , of alexandria and athens ; and to be inform'd , who they were . this may give us reason to think , that all the churches in the world were at that time under an episcopal administration ; especially if it appear , that they were so in the following age : but before i come to make enquiry into that , it may be requisite to remove out of the way some objections that relate to the apostles days . 1. you argue from acts 20.17 , 28. titus 1.5 , 7. that mere presbyters were bishops . and this i am ready to grant : but then it must be acknowledged , that the presbyters mention'd in those places , were subordinate to other pastors , and consequently , a continuance of their office supposes a continuance of such superiors as they had , to the end of the world. their superiors were s. paul and titus , and if there be any question , whether the name of bishops may be ascribed to them , it may be determin'd from what has been said already . for if it belongs to the apostles , as i have prov'd from the words of s. peter , and some passages of the ancients , it may fitly be apply'd , not only to the twelve , but to all their colleagues . but episcopacy , you tell me (t) , is a word of ample signification ; for 't is not only to be met with in homer , plutarch , cicero , but it is apply'd to god by basil , and to the elders by peter : nothing therefore is deducible from it , as to the special nature of any office , except by way of analogy . and what then ? did i ever affirm , that it had but one sense in all the books where it occurs , whether they are sacred or profane ? did i ever assert , that none but apostles were called bishops , and deduce from that title an account of the special nature of their office ? if you can impute to me neither of these things , you must be content to fight with your own shadow : and i shall think it enough , that the instances i have produced , perform what i design'd by them . they shew , that in affirming , the apostles were bishops , and particularly , that s. james was a bishop , whatever exceptions some have taken against it , we speak the language of the scripture and the fathers : they also shew , that if mere presbyters were bishops , others had the same denomination , who had jurisdiction over them , and answer the objections against prelacy , that have been rais'd from acts 20.17 , 28. and other places . 2. you argue from clemens romanus , that in the first age , there were but two ranks of ecclesiastical officers , because he mentions no more , when he speaks of the bishops and deacons , that were constituted by the apostles , of those that afterwards should believe . as if the whole scheme of the government which the apostles established , might be taken from that one act , or they had done nothing , but what this author left upon record . but , as epiphanius tells us (u) , all things could not be regulated by them on a sudden . and the churches of their plantation afford us the best pattern of ecclesiastical polity , not as they were only in design , or in their infancy , but as they had receiv'd from their founders their due lineaments and just proportions , and were grown up to some perfection . this might have been a sufficient answer to what you have objected from the place before us , had you demonstrated , that when clemens only mentions two ranks of ministers ; he meant to exclude a greater number . but this you have not prov'd ; as one might have expected you should , before you built so much upon it . because persons differing in degree or order sometimes come under the same denomination . there were many that were said to be rulers of the same synagogue , as some have gather'd from mark 5.22 . (w) . yet one of those rulers was the president . there were many , that at the same time were said to be princes of asia (x) , yet one of them was called the asiarcha , by way of eminence , and distinguish'd from the rest in dignity and power ; as spanhemius (y) and harduinus (z) collect from some ancient coins , and from the epistle of the church of smyrna . and as a learned man of our own a observes , aaron and his successor eleazar are never styled high priests in the books of moses , but priests only : and yet the other priests were subject to them , when they had no distinct title . clemens romanus himself speaking of abraham , says , that all the priests and levites were descended from him (b) , and in one of the members of that division he must be suppos'd to comprehend the high priests , whom he does not expresly mention . and probably , it was in imitation of the hellenist jews (c) , that many of the primitive christian writers distinguish'd the clergy into two ranks : and to make them speak consistent with themselves , we need only grant , that two different orders , by reason of some general agreement between them , are contain'd in one of the branches of the distinctions which they use . this one thing being consider'd , may answer a great part of blondel's apology : and it shews , that if nothing else hinders , clemens might comprehend all the ruling officers of the church , under the name of bishops , that being a word , which , at that time , was of a general signification ; yet some of them might be supreme , and others subordinate to them . he might call them indifferently bishops or presbyters , yet some of them might be prelats ; and the rest of an inferior rank , and under their authority . but supposing , what , for my part i am inclin'd to believe , that all the bishops mention'd by clemens were mere presbyters , i know not what service this can do you . for he intimates (d) , that there were officers distinct from them , and superior to them : and only to these renowned men , as he calls them , and the apostles , whom he joyns with them , he ascribes the power of ordination , which hath been the prerogative of the bishops ever since his days . 't is true , it may seem , that there was no bishop at corinth , when he sent this epistle thither , which was before the destruction of jerusalem : but if the see was vacant at that time , it might be fill'd before the first century was expir'd . certain it is , that about the middle of the following age primus was bishop of corinth by succession , as you may learn from hegesippus (e) : and if you enquire into the original of that succession , tertullian (f) will lead you to it ; for he places at corinth , one of the chairs of the apostles . it was in another of them that s. clemens himself sate , who is the author of this epistle . he was a bishop or an apostle , as he is styl'd by clemens alexandrinus (g) : he is mentioned in the table of the roman apostles , which was taken by mabillon (g) out of a book of canons in the abbey of corbie : and , which amounts to the same thing , he is reckon'd in all the catalogues that are extant of the roman bishops . s. irenaeus (i) , who liv'd near his time , informs us , that he was bishop of rome . the same is attested by tertullian (k) and origen (l) , by eusebius (m) and epiphanius (n) , by optatus (o) and jerom † , by augustin (p) and many others . so that we have as great certainty of it , as there is , that clemens writ the epistle which bears his name . and if there be no ground to doubt of it , as i think there is not , his silence concerning a bishop of corinth , is not so cogent an argument against episcopacy , as his own example is for it : there not being the least cause to believe , that so excellent a person would have born an office , which himself condemn'd or believ'd to be sinful . chap. xi . after the apostles decease the churches were govern'd by single persons , who were distinguish'd by the name of bishops . in what hath been already said of episcopal government , i have for the most part limited my discourse to the first century , and only touch'd on it incidentally , as continued in succeeding times . i come now more fully to shew , that after the apostles decease , the churches or dioceses were govern'd by single persons , who were then distinguish'd by the name of bishops . this appears from many passages in the epistles of s. ignatius : as also from the fragments (q) that remain of hegesippus and dionysius of corinth , of polycrates and others , who flourish'd in the second century . in the third origen acquaints us , it was the custom to have no more than one bishop of a church (r) : and this he plainly intimates , where he tells us expresly , that in every church there were two : for according to him , one of them was visible , and the other invisible : one of them a man , and the other an assisting angel. 't is true , near the beginning of that age narcissus had alexander for his colleague in the government of the church of jerusalem : but as he was the first we meet with in ecclesiastical history , that after the apostles days admitted of a coadjutor : so his case was extraordinary , not only by reason of his extreme old age (s) , but also because , as eusebius informs us (t) , his breach of the churches rule was dispenc'd with by divine revelation . the rule was , that of one church or diocese , there might be no more than one bishop (u) . on which principle cyprian (w) and cornelius (x) argued against the novatians : and the council of nice (y) meant the same thing in prohibiting a plurality of bishops in one city ; and did not thereby introduce an innovation , but confirm an useful part of the ancient discipline . it was high time to do this , for when epiphanius , speaking of alexandria , says (z) , that it never had two bishops , as other cities , he intimates , that in the days of alexander , who was present in the nicene council , some cities in egypt had a plurality of bishops ; and if so , it was a thing fit to be repress'd , as being contrary to the primitive custom : a custom so avow'd , and which had been so well establish'd , that when the roman confessors abandon'd the schismaticks , by whose arts they had been deluded , and made their submission to cornelius ; when they acknowledged their errors before him with great humility , they profess'd , they could not charge themselves with the ignorance of this , that as there is one god , one christ , and one holy spirit , so there ought to be but one bishop of a catholick church (a) . yet a doubt still remains , on what account it was , that other cities differ'd from alexandria in such a manner , as epiphanius suggests . and some are of opinion , that the reason of it was , because some catholick bishops assum'd coadjutors , after the example of narcissus . but i rather think , it proceeded from the meletians , of whom he discourses in this place , and who with a mighty industry set up their schismatical bishops and assemblies . at alexandria , it seems , they could not carry on their designs so successfully as in other parts of egypt , till , as epiphanius relates the matter , they took their advantage of the death of alexander , and the absence of achillas his successon , and then in opposition to him , they made theonas their bishop , and at alexandria it self erected altar against altar . but if you are not mistaken , these meletians reform'd a great abuse at alexandria by that action : for there you say , the departure from the primitive institution of having divers bishops of one city began , as we are told by danaeus , who citeth epiphanius , and might have cited others . thousands , doubtless , sir , he might have cited to as much purpose , that is , to testifie such things as never enter'd into their thoughts . epiphanius knew very well , that plurality of bishops in one city , proceeded commonly from schism or heresie , and was far enough from taking that to be an argument of the purity of the church ▪ which in the common sense of christians , both before and after his own time , was esteem'd a corruption . danaeus had a conceit , that when there was in a city a plurality of bishops , they differ'd in this from the bishop of alexandria , that they were presbyters , and he a prelate (b) ; which sufficiently discovers the weakness of his judgment , or something worse . but he was willing , we see , it should be believ'd , that the first prelate , was to be found at alexandria , that he might have occasion to tell the world , that prelacy and monkery , and other plagues of the church , had their original from the same place . but that all bishops were equal , or that they had the same prelatical authority , i shall shew hereafter : and i am no farther concern'd with it here , than as it results from this proposition , that according to the primitive rule , the government of every diocese was monarchical : and this , i think , is manifest from what has been said , beyond all just exception . chap. xii . the bishops were successors of the apostles . we have seen that in the second and other centuries , the churches were govern'd by single persons , who were distinguish'd by the name of bishops : and in the next place , i shall prove , that the bishops were successors to the apostles : because this will confirm my leading proposition , that the apostles were ordinary pastors , and prepare my way to consider , how the bishops stood related amongst themselves and to others , and what regard is due to persons of their character . that the bishops were successors to the apostles ▪ s. augustin thought might be gather'd from the prediction that was made to the church by the psalmist in these words , in stead of thy fathers shall be thy children (c) ; for of them he gives us the following paraphrase (d) , the apostles begat thee , they are thy fathers . but could they remain with us always ? one of them said , i desire to depart , and to be with christ , which is far better : nevertheless to abide in the flesh , is more needful for you . he said so indeed . but how long could he continue here ? could he live on earth to this and future ages ? or was the church deserted , when the apostles were deceased ? god forbid . instead of the fathers , there are children : bishops are constituted in room of the apostles . do not therefore think thy self forsaken , because thou seest not peter : or because thou seest not paul , or because thou seest not any of those , from whom thou art descended , since fathers are risen out of thy own offspring . the author of the commentary on the psalms , that goes under the name of jerom , agrees with s. augustin in that exposition . and s. jerom himself , who upbraids the montanists for depressing the bishop into the third rank (e) , says in opposition to them , with us the bishops possess the place of the apostles . his sense of this he expresses more copiously in his epistle to evagrius ; for there he says , wherever there be a bishop , whether at rome or eugubium , at constantinople or rhegium , at alexandria or tanis , he is of the same merit , and of the same priesthood . the power of riches and meanness of poverty may render one bishop higher or lower than another ( that is , with respect to things external , or a priority of order , if that be the true reading which i follow ) but they are all the apostles successors (f) . long before jerom , firmilian , (g) was of the same judgment : for speaking of the bishops in general , he tells us , that they succeeded the apostles . and with him agrees cyprian . (h) , and clarus à muscula (i) his cotemporary . many others might be added : but here i shall only mention s. irenaeus , who argues thus against the hereticks in his time : we can number those , says he (k) , who by the apostles were instituted bishops in the churches , and their successors to our own time ; and they taught us none of the dotages of , these men : but if the apostles knew any hidden mysteries , which they secretly taught the perfect , they would chiefly have imparted them to the persons to whom they committed the churches . for they desir'd that they should be very perfect and unblamable , to whom they deliver'd their own place of government . thus that excellent father , and his testimony is the more considerable , because of his great antiquity . for 't is probable , he was born several years before the death of s. john (l) , and 't is certain , he receiv'd instruction from some that had seen and heard the apostles themselves . to invalidate his authority , you tell me , he is agreed by some to have affirm'd , that our lord christ did undergo his passion in the fiftieth year of his age . as if that might better be determin'd by their agreement about it than his own writings , in which we find no such thing . he no where fixes the period of our saviours passion : he no where assigns it to a certain year : yet i grant , he was of opinion , that our saviour liv'd about fifty years , if that passage be his , wherein he treats of this matter (m) . but antonius pagi (n) and other learned men conceive , it has been corrupted , it seeming incredible to them , that irenaeus should attribute to our lord so many years in that very chapter , wherein he reckons no more than three passovers which he celebrated after he enter'd upon the thirtieth year of his age , and declares , he did eat the last of them the day before his suffering . but there being no copies to justifie that charge of corruption , what i insist upon is , that if irenaeus was mistaken in the time of christs passion , it does not follow that he was so in the thing which i have cited from him . if he err'd concerning that period about which all mankind have been in the dark ; he might notwithstanding be a credible witness of such matters as could not well escape his notice and have nothing in them that is improbable . such was the severity of our saviours life and deportment that , it may seem , he appear'd more aged than he was : for when the jews said to him , thou art not yet fifty years old (o) , doubtless they thought , he was near so much . and it is easie then to conceive , how the report might arise and be continued , which irenaeus follow'd : but it was so far from becoming an universal tradition , that it was never embraced , that we find , by so much as two of the fathers . the case is very different when he relates , who succeeded the apostles , for of this lie could hardly be ignorant , that lived so near them . and the account he gives having been confirm'd by many others , and having met with an universal approbation , cannot be rejected by us with any shadow of reason . but you say , admitting irenaeus 's authority to be unblemished and cite as one could wish it , yet on this occasion , it will do me but small service : for the force of the testimony which i cite from him depends on the word magisterium , and magisterium signifies , not , as i understand it , a masterly authority , but teaching and doctrine : for in this latter sense the word is often us'd by the fathers and particularly by s. cyprian , as i may see lib. 1. ep. 3. and in other places . yet in that very epistle to which you refer me , we may not understand by it doctrine without authority , nor is it limited to any such sense amongst ancient writers . in suetonius (p) in ammianus marcellinus (q) , in sulpicius severus (r) and many others , it signifies some dignity or office with power and jurisdiction . it signifies government in apuleius (ſ) ; and casaubon (t) observes , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and magisterium sacerdotii are expressions equivalent . from hence it appears that locus magisterii in irenaeus may fitly be translated , the place of authority or government . and that it ought to be so , will be manifest , if it be consider'd , that he thought it peculiar to the bishops , to succeed the apostles in their own place or office. he could not think it peculiar to them to derive from the apostles the meer power of preaching , which was known to be common to other ministers . his words therefore can import no less , than that the bishops were constituted supreme pastors without that dependance on presbyters which these had on them ; or , that they were vested with such authority over other officers and churches as the apostles before enjoy'd and exercis'd . and now it may be fit , and it will be no difficult matter , to answer your objection , which i omitted before , against the succession of bishops to the apostles , and which is to this effect . the prelates , you conceive , cannot be said to be the apostles successors , because the apostles in their life time could not constitute any officers over whom they did not retain a jurisdiction , nor convey to others the places which , you suppose , they still kept . but if it be said they appointed that the prelates should be inducted into those places after their decease , you think , there is no credible tradition transmitted to us of that matter . but here is one thing you have forgotten that may deserve to be consider'd , which is , that unless all the apostles had died together the survivers might put others into the places of the deceas'd . accordingly , tho simeon was not nominated by s. james to be his successor , nor came into his place whilst he was alive , yet after the death of that apostle , he was by others constituted bishop of jerusalem (t) . it is farther observable , that the apostles , before their decease , were sometimes obliged to withdraw themselves from the churches which they had planted and govern'd , and thereupon they committed the government of them to fit persons , who may well be said to be their successors in that administration . especially since , as i have prov'd , the apostles communicated to them the same authority that themselves had exercis'd . yet as julius capitolinus acquaints us (u) , that lucius was as observant of marcus , who made him partner of his empire as a president was wont to be of the emperor himself : thus timothy and titus and others of the same rank , who had been ordain'd by the apostles , might still pay them such respect and deference as was due to persons of incomparable excellence , and yet all be of the same order . the apostles having communicated their episcopal authority to some in their own time , these transmitted it to others in the following centuries : and in this manner it has been conveyed to bishops in all ages . the bishops therefore may be said to succeed the apostles , and that not only in the government of churches , which were of their plantation , but of others also in countries to which they never arriv'd . for since they had commission to bring all nations under the discipline of christ , and govern them in his name , a right to that descends to their spiritual heirs , and they may exercise it in all the parts of the world. but notwithstanding your attempt to demonstrate that the apostles could have no successors , you make no doubt to affirm , that presbyters succeed them in their ordinary work : and about this i shall make some enquiry , when i have first put you in mind , that either you must suppose , these presbyters were subject to the apostles in their discharge of that work , and if so , a subjection was consistent with a succession to them ; or else they were not subject , and then you must allow that the apostles constituted officers over whom they retain'd no jurisdiction . take it which way you please , you are concern'd , i think , to reject or answer your own argument . to prove that priests are successors to the apostles , you quote a passage (†) of nilus , as you call the author of the treatise de primatu papae , which , as colomesius informs us , was compos'd by mark the ephesian . but to which of them soever it belongs it is not very material : for neither of them flourish'd within a thousand years of the days of the apostles and therefore come too late to determine what the belief of the primitive church was by their own testimony . indeed if a subordinate officer may be said to succeed the supreme for doing some things after his example , by authority deriv'd from him , then may priests be said to succeed the apostles ; and so they are by some that use a great latitude of expression . but the ancients speaking exactly , and telling us that the bishops succeed the apostles , thereby intimated , that they were both of the same order , or that both had the same function . for this they believ'd and urged when there was occasion . photius mentions it as a thing commonly acknowledg'd , that both had the same dignity of place (w) clarus à muscula acquaints us (x) , that both govern'd with the same power . s. basil ascribes to both the same prelacy (y) : and according to tertullian both sat in the same chairs (z) , and that not only as teachers , but as presidents or rulers of the churches . 't is true the bishops were not wont to assume to themselves the name of apostles for a reason already given , yet that it was sometimes ascrib'd to them appears from several instances (a) . it is also manifest , that sometimes they were stil'd apostolici (b) , that their office was call'd an apostolate (c) , and that any bishoprick , especially if it was founded by an apostle , was called an apostolick see. for the title of apostolick , that i may note this by the way , was not appropriated to the see of rome before the eleventh century , says the author of the notes on paulinus (d) : it was not before the thirteenth , says mabillon (e) : it was not certainly before the popes had trampl'd under their feet the rights of episcopacy . chap. xiii . the bishops after the example of the apostles stood related amongst themselves as equals , but to other ecclesiastical officers as superiors . as the bishops were successors to the apostles , so after their example they stood related amongst themselves as equals , but to presbyters as superiors in office and authority . 1. they stood related amongst themselves as equals . according to cyprian , every one of them in his own diocese was a judge in christs stead (f) and says that father , none of us makes himself a bishop of bishops , or by a tyrannical terror compells his collegues into a necessity of obedience (g) . this he spake in a council at carthage , and with reflection probably on stephen bishop of rome , who injuriously invaded the rights and liberties of his brethren . 't is true some bishops were distinguish'd from others by a primacy of order , and had the chief direction of ecclesiastical affairs . when synods were call'd , they presided in them ; and for this they had the example of s. james in the council of jerusalem . but their primacy depended on the consent of other bishops , and was mutable . it did not render them judges of the rest within their several provinces , nor might they condemn any of them by their own sentence , without the suffrages of their collegues . 2. in the purest ages after the apostles , the bishops stood related to presbyters as superiors : and in this it is that our controversie is chiefly concern'd . i shall therefore prove it more largely ; and for this purpose . i shall not only serve my self of such passages of ancient writers as describe the office or authority of bishops , but others also , that only mention them as an order distinct from priests . for if they were so , there can be no question to which of them the supremacy did belong . i begin with the testimony of s. ignatius , who says in his epistle to the philadelphians , that he cried with a loud voice , attend to the bishop , and to the presbytery , and to the deacons (h) . he instructs the ephesians to respect the bishop as the lord that sent him (i) . and to the smyrnaeans he declares , that in things relating to the church , none ought to act without the bishop (k) : that the eucharist is then valid when it is perform'd under his authority or by his permission ; without which , he says , it is not lawful to baptize or celebrate the feasts of love. so clearly does he assert the prerogatives of episcopacy . what i have cited from ignatius carries the greater weight with it , because , as chrysostom (l) informs us , he was conversant with the apostles and instructed by them . he was a person of so much sanctity and zeal , that he was willing to endure all the torments that the devil could inflict , that he might be with christ , and thought it more desirable to be torn in pieces by wild beasts for his sake , than to be emperor of the world. having had the advantages of such an education and being so wonderfully inflam'd with the love of jesus , he cannot be thought to have corrupted the church : nor had he time to accomplish it , had he design'd a thing so detestable . for he did not long survive s. john whose disciple he was . he suffer'd death under the emperor trajan , as simeon also did (m) , and probably both receiv'd the crown of martyrdom the same year . if an author so ancient and venerable had only told us that the government of the church in his time was episcopal , this might have signified much . but he does not only relate it as matter of fact , that there were bishops : he shews that obedience was due to them as the supreme pastours , and as the representatives and ambassadours of christ . and because it was suspected , that his asserting their authority had no higher cause , than a prudential foresight of the divisions , which some were about to make , he calls him to witness for whom he was in bonds , that it proceeded from the spirit of god (n) . and this protestation being made at a time when miraculous inspirations were frequent , there is not the least ground to question his veracity . the truth is , the epistles of this admirable man afford such plain evidence for episcopacy , that this has been the foundation of all the quarrels against them ; and particularly , it was the cause , as grotius informs us (o) , why they were rejected by blondel , tho in the florentino copy they were free from those things for which they had before been suspected by the learned . the famous isaac vossius , who publish'd them from that copy , tells us (p) , that every time he read them over , they presented him with fresh arguments of their exellence , and of their being genuine : and this will not appear strange to any person that peruses them with care and without prejudice . but if you take them to be spurious , you may try your skill in answering what has been said by dr. pearson and others in their vindication : and if you succeed in that attempt , i pray let us know , what grounds of certainty you have that there are any books of the antiquity to which they pretend , now extant in the christian world . to s. ignatius may be added his cotemporaries philo and agathopus , or whoever were the writers of the acts of his martyrdom : they attended on him in his journey from syria to rome , at which time , they tell us , the churches and cities of asia did honour the saint , by their bishops , priests and deacons (q) . and they deserve the more credit as being eye-witnesses of what they relate . not long after that time the emperor hadrian writ an epistle to servianus , which was preserv'd by phlegon , and transcrib'd from him by flavius vopiscus ; and in that there occurs a passage (r) from whence it is manifest , that bishops were then esteem'd of a different rank from presbyters , and that the distinction between them was obvious to the very heathen . but you are much surpriz'd , you say , at my citation of this epistle of hadrian ; for certainly it appears by it , that hadrian had but little acquaintance with the egyptian christians , and then his authority is of as little moment : or else these christians were of the worst of men , for he represents them as well as the other inhabitants of egypt to be a most seditious , vain and most injurious sort of men , and particularly says , that those that worship serapis were christians , and that the bishops of christ were devoted unto serapis . he adds that the very patriarch coming into egypt , was constrain'd of some to worship serapis , and of some to worship christ . was ever any thing more virulently said of christians or indeed more mistakingly ! &c. these are your words , and they seem an effect of the surprize you speak of , rather than any sedate thoughts . for , to begin where you leave off , that i may remove out of the way , what is little to our purpose . 1. you suppose that the patriarch mention'd by hadrian was a christian . whereas there was not then in the world any ecclesiastical officer , who did bear that title . eutychius indeed informs us , that there were patriarchs of alexandria ; but this was an argument of his ignorance , unless the apology which the learned and noble job ludolfus (ſ) makes for him may be admitted , that he mention'd them under that denomination by way of anticipation . this is the most plausible thing that can be said in his vindication : but that he did not only speak properly , but may as well be believ'd to have forgotten his own name as that of his predecessors , is a thought peculiar to your self . it is not my business here to enquire into the original of patriarchs in the christian church . it is sufficient for my purpose , that they are not mention'd by any author under that title before socrates who flourish'd in the fifth century . but the jews had their patriarchs much more early , as jacobus gothofredus (t) and other learned men have prov'd from unquestionable evidence : and amongst these jewish patriarchs i reckon this in vopiscus , not only for the reason already given , but because it is said , that he was compell'd to worship christ . if he had been a christian there had been no need of that compulsion : neither can it be suppos'd that the infidels would have attempted to force him to do what his avowed principles obliged him to perform . indeed if some cruelty had been us'd to extort from him a denial of christ , this had been an argument that he made profession of christianity ; to which he had no title , if without violence he could not be brought to confess our saviour and adore him . 2. you suppose , the little knowledge hadrian had of the egyptian christians confutes my argument taken from his testimony , by which i would prove that the office of a bishop in his time was distinct from that of a presbyter , whereas it gives it the greater force : for the thing may well be thought to be the more evident , in that it was taken notice of by a person who was so little acquainted with the christian affairs in egypt . 3. you suppose that because hadrian was under great mistakes concerning the egyptian christians and their bishops , this must render his testimony useless ; whereas it evidently proves what i design'd by it , whether his description of them be true or false . for whosoever gave him this relation , it cannot be imagin'd that they invented a sort of men that never were in being , that they might have a subject for their accusation : nor is there any ground to believe that hadrian or his informers had the spirit of prophecy or discover'd by divination that there would be such officers in succeeding times as had not then been heard of ; and that they contriv'd to bring an odium upon the prelates before they did exist . but as we may collect from the emperors words , that whether the christians were so fickle or not as he represents them , yet there were christians ; so we may conclude that whether the bishops worshipped serapis or not , there were bishops notwithstanding : and this is all that i intended by this instance . yet i may further add , that if the charge against these bishops be false , as you would have it , it is more for my purpose than if it were true ; as it is far more desirable that persons of their character should walk worthy of their vocation , than dishonour it by their practices , and be loaded with infamy and reproach . in your endeavours therefore to vindicate their innocence , you have taken care to confute your own objection ; which is founded on the injustice of the accusation that the emperor brings against them . but if you had omitted this stroke , you had lost a fair opportunity of being deliver'd of a quaint conceit which i have not met with in any other author , and i believe it to be new . as for the devotion you say of the egyptian bishops to serapis , you cannot imagine any occasion they should give , which with any colour should render them suspected of idolatry , but their signing with the sign of the cross , and the reason why you are inclin'd to think so is , because pignorius in his mensa isiaca assures us that serapis was anciently denoted by a cross ; and you conceive that this might be the hieroglyphick of the three headed monster of which chartarius gives the icon since that was annected to the image of serapis . now chartarius and his terrible icon i never saw , but am apt to think , that the act of signing with the cross , which leaves no visible impression behind it , hath no great resemblance of a three headed monster : and however pignorius says , that the cross denotes serapis , i know not that he hath given us any assurance of it . we find another interpretation put upon it in suidas (u) , to whom you refer me , and in socrates (w) , who is cited by pignorius , for in both it is said to signifie the life to come . be it as it will : the egyptians must have been very foolish , if they gather'd that the bishops were worshippers of serapis , from the use of that which was a sign of devotion and of their adherence to christ , in opposition to all idolatry . the heathens could without any such ground cast reproach on the innocent , and of this they made no difficulty . the apologists generally take notice how they accus'd the christians of atheism and incest , and devouring mans flesh , when they were the holiest and the most vertuous persons in the world . eusebius acquaints us (*) , that they forged lies and calumnies against our lord himself under the name of pilat's acts ; and no wonder that they treated the servants no better than they did the master of the family . but to give more colour to their slanders , they compell'd some infamous persons to profess themselves christians (x) , that they might load those that were so indeed with the blackest aspersions . and if the pastours of the church fled from the rage of persecution or hid themselves , 't is easie to conceive that men extreamly malicious against them and their religion , might hite or force some wretches to personate them in the worship of serapis : and we may be assur'd that any thing which tended to the dishonour of christianity would gain an easie belief amongst the adversaries . but whether the calumny was propagated this , or some other way against the bishops , i am not much concern'd about it , since we are agreed about their existence and their innocence . but about their character you have rais'd some doubt , for in this epistle , you say , there is only the name of bishop or presbyter without any specification of the office signified by it , either as to its nature or limits . as if these things could not be known , unless we had here met with their description ; or the emperor could not write intelligibly unless he had left us a clavis or glossary to let us into his meaning . i thought it had been sufficient for that purpose , that he uses the word bishop in such a sense as the other writers of that age generally did ; none of which apply it to any other person of their own time but the prelate only . besides , as i have shew'd , he distinguishes the bishop from the presbyter , for which he would have had no reason , had their office been the same ; as he would have had no cause to make the difference , he does , between jews and christians , had they been of the same principles and religion . the next witness i shall mention is clemens alexandrinus , who mentions the three orders , of bishops , presbyters and deacons (y) , and he calls the advances or progressions from one of these offices to another , imitations of the angelical glory . but this you believe , i mention'd for pomp rather than any cogency i thought was in it , it being only a conceit or flourish of rhetorick , in that father . and you might as well have said , that when he compares the visible officers of the church to the different ranks of angels , it was a meer conceit or flourish of rhetorick , that there were such officers or that there were angels . certain it is from this place , that clemens makes the dignity of a bishop superior to that of a presbyter , as he does the dignity of a presbyter superior to that of a deacon . and in another place (z) he shews that there were distinct rules prescrib'd to each of them . and i take this testimony of a person who flourish'd in the next age after the apostles to be very considerable . but say you , tho in his pedagogue he speaks of bishops , presbyters and deacons , yet in his stromata where he treats of ecclesiastical orders more at large , he mentions but two , the presbyter and deacon , and plainly intimates , that the bishop was only a presbyter honour'd with the first seat. and how is it that he plainly intimates this ? has he in any other part of his writings given us any notice of such a presbyter and his seat ? no : he hath not said a word about them . hath any other writer in or near his time left us a description of them ? no : they mention no such matter . could he not speak of presbyters , but one of them must needs be the president and moderator in the consistory ? that is not pretended . how hath he then so plainly intimated , that there was such a person ? no other way , but by a profound silence about him . and thus a man that speaks not a word , or is asleep , may plainly intimate what you please . 't is certain however , that in the passage to which you refer me , he speaks but of two ranks of ecclesiastical officers , yet he knew there were more ; and he mentions three not only in his paedagogue , but in his stromata : and his silence in one place cannot evacuate what he expresly declares in another . tertullian was cotemporary with clemens , and he , in his treatise of baptism , tell us (a) , that the chief priest , who is the bishop , hath the power of giving that sacrament , and after him the presbyters and deacons , but not without the authority of the bishop , for the honour of the church , which being safe , the peace is secur'd . but tertullian , you tell me , does more than seem to be on your side , when speaking of the christian congregations , both as to their discipline and government , and to their worship , he says , praesident probati quiquo seniores , &c. that the presbyters have the rule and government in them . and here you take it for granted , that these seniores are mere presbyters , and yet you know , this is a thing in question , a thing that hath been deny'd by many , not without good appearance of reason , since the titles of ancients or elders have sometimes been apply'd to bishops , as blondel will inform you , and that it is so here , the words seem to import . but about this , i may have occasion to discourse in another place . and at present i will suppose , that the seniors tertullian speaks of , were meer presbyters , and yet did preside , i know not however , why he should more than seem to be on your side ; but that great is the strength of imagination . for manifest it is from him , as we have seen , that the bishop stood related to the presbyters as their high priest : and without his licence or permission , they could not baptize . notwithstanding therefore they might preside in particular congregations , or otherwise as his assistants , yet it was with dependance on him , and subordination to him in the administration of the government . to evade this , you say , that such a distinction of officers , according to tertullian , was rather a matter of order for peace sake , and the honour of the church , than by divine institution . there was however such a distinction , and as for the original of it , that is another question ; which may also be resolv'd from this father . for he declares , that bishops were constituted by the apostles ; and there is no doubt , but one motive of it was , the welfare of the church ; which without peace and order cannot be preserv'd . indeed , if there had been no such institution , if the honor of the church were not to be regarded , and if peace , which is so much recommended in the gospel were an unnecessary thing , then he would have allow'd , that even lay-men might baptize : but now he charges them not to invade those things that belong to their superiors , nor to usurp the episcopal function (b) . not long after tertullian , flourish'd origen , and he tells us in his discourse of prayer (c) , that the obligation of a deacon , is distinct from that of a presbyter ; but the greatest of all , is that of a bishop . and says he in another place , more is requir'd of me , than of a deacon ; more of a deacon , than a lay-man . but he that governs in chief must give an account of the whole church . one passage more i shall add , because it hath something in it that is peculiar (d) : and this is taken from his commentaries on the gospel according to s. matthew , wherein he shews , how necessary it was for those to repress their arrogance , who thought too highly of themselves for this cause , especially that their ancestors or great grand-fathers had been advanced to the episcopal throne , or to the honour of priests and deacons . and this carries back his testimony much higher than his own time , and lower than that , i need not here descend . chap. xiv . after the apostles days there was no space of time , nor any country where christianity prevail'd , without episcopacy . if matters between us may be determin'd by the writings of the ancients , as you have granted , i think it sufficiently evident from what has been said , that churches were govern'd by bishops in the best ages after the decease of the apostles . and for the improvement of this argument , and to prevent evasions , i observe , that it is manifest from the testimony of the fathers , 1. that after the apostles days there was no space of time without episcopacy : nor 2. was there any country without it , where christianity prevail'd . 1. there was no space of time after the decease of the apostles without episcopacy . there was no such interval of forty years between that period , and the constitution of bishops , as blondel (e) dreamt of ; nor had he any thing but meer conjectures , to support his opinion , which is oppos'd by the whole current of antiquity . his friend walo messalinus (f) was more cautious , who acknowledges , that the distinction of the orders of bishops and presbyters was most ancient , and only requires , that the apostles times should be excepted : and yet his demand is too extravagant . for the fathers generally believ'd , that there was such a distinction in their days , and that by their appointment in churches of their own plantation . this may appear from what has been said already , and it may be farther confirm'd from tertullian , who thus upbraids the hereticks with their novelty ▪ and confutes their pretences to tradition (g) . let them declare , says he , the originals of their churches : let them shew an order of their bishops flowing by succession in such a manner from the beginning , that their first bishop had an apostle , or an apostolical person , who was conversant with the apostles , for his ordainer , and predecessor , and he adds , that this the apostolical churches did . and thus he thought to stop the mouths of gain-sayers , and triumphs much in his argument . but his attempt had been extremely vain , if they might have return'd him this answer . sir , you are under a mistake , or would impose on us . the apostles were extraordinary officers , and had no successors , nor did they constitute any bishops , as you pretend . the bishops you speak of , have deprav'd the government of the church : they have advanced themselves upon the steps to corruption , and contrary to the divine institution , usurpt a power over their brethren . what reason have we then to believe , that they hold fast that profession of faith which was once deliver'd to the saints , since they have so ambitiously trampled on their equals , and made no conscience to establish their own greatness on the ruines of the ancient discipline . 't is our glory , that we have none of them , and that we regard not their authority . yet upon your grounds , this they might have replied to the confusion of that learned father , had it then been believ'd that episcopacy was an innovation . i know it has been objected , that there are intricacies and inconsistences in the catalogues of the successions which the fathers have left us . but so there are in the catalogues of the high priests , that are g●ven by jewish and christian writers , as mr. selden (h) will inform you : and also in the catalogues of the archontes , who amongst the athenians gave the name and title to the year , as you may find , if you compare many of their names , as they are express'd in the marble chronicle at oxford , with what is extant concerning them in the books of the most famous greeks , and those books one with another . yet no body doubts , but there was amongst the israelites a succession of high priests from aaron , and amongst the athenians a succession of archontes from creon . and we have no reason to question , but there was such a succession of bishops from the apostles as the fathers speak of , notwithstanding in the tables of their succession , which have been convey'd to us , there be some variation . the words of king charles l. (i) are very apposite to my purpose . for says that judicious and excellent prince , all humane histories are subject to such frailties . there are differences in historiographers in reciting the succession of the babylonian , persian and macedonian kings , and of the saxon kings in england . and we find more inextricable difficulties in the fasti consulares , ( the catalogues of the roman consuls ) notwithstanding their great care in keeping the publick records , and the exactness of the roman histories , than are to be found in the episcopal catalogues , &c. yet all men believe , there were kings in those countreys , and consuls in rome in those times . so that the discrediting of the catalogues of bishops , in respect of some uncertainty and differences , which yet may be fairly reconcil'd , tendeth rather to the confirmation of the thing it self . 2. wherever christianity prevail'd the government of the churches was episcopal . for as s. irenaeus (k) argued for the christian religion , that the churches amongst the germans , amongst the hiberi and celtae : the churches planted in the east , in egypt and libya , and in the middle region of the world , or palestine , had not a faith or tradition different from one another ; but as one sun gave light to all the world , so did the same truth shine every where . thus may we say of the ecclesiastical polity or government in the first ages after the apostles , it was every where the same . it was the same as we have seen in europe , and in asia , and in africa . and distant as the nations were in situation , and different as they were in their customs and manners ; yet when christianity was receiv'd amongst them , it brought episcopacy with it . a plain argument that both proceeded from the same uniform cause , and that prelacy was not esteem'd a mere prudential thing , that might be rejected at pleasure . in the passage that i last cited from tertullian , he manifestly shews , that all apostolical churches were govern'd by a succession of bishops from the beginning : and in this he follows irenaeus , who intimates , that he could have set down such a succession in the rest , as he did in the church of rome ; but that he was unwilling to swell his volume into too great a bulk (l) . and in the following age s. cyprian (m) says , that bishops were long since ordain'd through all provinces and all cities . to the testimony of the fathers i shall add another of a modern writer ; but it relates to the practice of former times , and is pertinent to my design . the author i mean is the celebrated dr. walton , whose edition of the polyglott bibles was not a little for the honour of our church and nation , yet it rais'd the envy of some , and that drew from him these words (n) . it appears , says he , by these ancient translations , that what our sectaries have cryed down in the church of england as popish innovations , viz. episcopal government , set forms of liturgies , observation of festivals , besides the lord's day , were us'd as they are still in those eastern churches , planted by the apostles and their successors in asia and africk , from the first times of their conversion , so that what these men would exterminate , as romish and antichristian novelties , have been anciently us'd by those famous and flourishing churches which never profess'd subjection to the see of rome . this is that cordolium of our novelists , the practice of the vniversal church of christ , all the world over . i have shew'd what was the original of prelacy or episcopacy , and how universally it did obtain . but the dissenters understanding by a bishop , such a minister as may have no other pastor above him , nor any presbyter under him ; i would demand , where there is any instance of him in the holy scripture ; or whether the primitive fathers writ any thing of him . in what country did he live ? in what nation under the heavens did he exercise his pastoral care ? you will not pretend , i presume , that there was any such person whilst the apostles were alive ; for the apostles , you tell me , constituted no officers , over whom they retain'd not a jurisdiction : and i give you the space of five hundred years after their days , to find but one single presbyterian or independent bishop in any sound part of the catholick church , or any approved instances of ordinations perform'd by him . but if you attempt this , i am desirous , you would only insist on good authorities , and not , as i shall find you shortly , on legends and romances . chap. xv. objections against episcopacy taken from the writings of the fathers , and some later authors examin'd . i shall despair of proving any matter of fact that was perform'd many ages since , if it be not manifest from the testimonies which i have produc'd , that the government of the primitive church was episcopal . yet for the contrary opinion , you pretend , you have vouchers , and these fathers too , as learned and pious fathers , as any the churches ever own'd . and 't is very true , you have drawn quotations from some that were of great eminence . how pertinently you have done it , i come now to enquire . s. cyprian is one of the ancients to whom you appeal , and he says (o) , the deacons ought to remember , that the lord chose apostles , that is , bishops and praepositi : but the apostles , after his ascension , constituted deacons for the service of themselves and of the church . and from hence you gather , that the praepositi , here were only presbyterial or congregational bishops , because they are contradistinguish'd to deacons . that is , because this father makes no mention in this place of presbyters , that being nothing to his purpose , the bishops must be depress'd into their order . but it is obvious , and i wonder how it escap'd your notice , that the apostles themselves were the bishops or praepositi , of which he speaks . and now you may conclude , if you please , that the twelve apostles were no more than fixed pastors of so many single congregations . you likewise argue from s. cyprian , that however he had the title of bishop , yet he consider'd himself only as first presbyter ; for which you give this notable reason , that his name for a bishop is always praepositus , in respect of the people ; and you add , that he calls presbyters compresbyters , but he no where calls deacons condeacons . but you might as well say , that s. peter (p) consider'd himself only as first presbyter , because he addresses his exhortation to the elders , as being also an elder : or that s. basil (q) was of no higher order , than that of deacon , because he styles eustathius , elpidius and sabinus , condeacons . and the like may be said of other examples of the same nature , for an account of which , i refer you to blondel (r) , and mabillon (s) . i think it is observable , that howsoever s. cyprian calls presbyters his compresbyters , yet he never calls them his colleagues : nor did he think they might over-rule him by the number of voices . but when some of them attempted to restore the lapsi (t) in his absence , without regard to his authority , he express'd a just resentment of it . he complain'd of this , as a thing that was never done in the time of his predecessors : so that however he could at other times dissemble the contempt that was cast upon his office , he did not think fit on this occasion to be silent or remiss : but gave order that the rash and insolent offenders should be prohibited to exercise their function . 't is true s. cyprian says (u) , he resolv'd from the time that he was made bishop , not to act any thing without the counsel and consent of his clergy and people : but the reason of this was , he treated the lapsi with unusual lenity , so that he needed the concurrence of others to support his authority ; yet as he did not prescribe to others his own rules of discipline (w) , so neither did himself always take the same measures . sometimes he restor'd offenders to the peace of the church (x) , when the people were brought to consent to it , but with difficulty ; sometimes when they oppos'd it . he also requir'd his presbyters and deacons , and people , to receive amongst the clergy (y) , numidicus a presbyter , without consulting them before about this matter . and he acquainted his clergy and people , that without their suffrage celerinus (z) was constituted reader , and appointed that he should be joyn'd with aurelius , and that both should have their share of the monthly maintenance , as presbyters had . at another time he thus express'd his thoughts to them about a breach of discipline (a) : if there be any person , said he , either amongst our presbyters or deacons , or amongst strangers , so extravagant or rash , that he shall dare before our sentence be given , to communicate with the lapsed , let him be expell'd from our communion . and not expecting the concurrence of any , he depriv'd philumenus , fortunatus , and favorinus of their monthly dividend , till their cause should have a publick hearing . upon the whole we find , that s. cyprian was a person of an excellent temper , and as he us'd such great condescension towards his clergy and people , as seems not to have been practis'd before , nor is always necessary , but was very fit for the time in which he liv'd : so on the other hand , he was not wanting to assert his own authority , and the dignity of his order : for he tells us (b) , christ says to his apostle , and consequently to all bishops who succeed the apostles , he that heareth you , heareth me ; and he that heareth me , heareth him that sent me . and he that rejecteth you , rejecteth me , and he that rejecteth me , rejecteth him that sent me . he adds (c) , that schisms and heresies arise from hence , that the bishop who is one , and governs the church , is by the presumption of some despis'd . and to those that forsook their bishop , and erected altar against altar , he applies these words of isaiah , wo unto ye children that are deserters , saith the lord. ye have taken counsel , but not of me . ye have made a covenant , but not by my spirit , to add sins to sins (d) . another of the ancients which you have quoted for the support of your opinion , is the commentator on s. paul's epistles that bears the name of ambrose , and from him you expect some assistance , because he says , that of a bishop and presbyter there is but one ordination (e) . but his meaning is not , as you suppose , that their consecration was the same ; but that they are both of the same order : by which , he intends no more , than that they agree in this , that both are priests . he did not believe them to be of equal power , however he comprehended them under one general denomination ; for , says he , the bishop is the chief : and every bishop is a presbyter , but every presbyter is not a bishop (f) . and what service this can do you , i do not understand . but the bishop , he tells us , is the first presbyter : and this is a thing on which you much insist , as if it afforded some great advantage to your cause : whereas the fathers who us'd that expression which you so well approve , had no such notion of a first presbyter , as you have entertain'd , but made the same distinction between him and his clergy , as there was between the high priest and the other priests that were under his authority . another thing for which you cite this commentator , is , the information he gives us , that the eldest was always the first presbyter (g) , till the inconveniences of that course occasion'd the change which he says was made by a council . but to this i know not how to assent , because it appears from scripture , and the writings of the most primitive fathers , that they who in the early times of christianity , were advanced to the charge of bishops , were commonly qualified for it , and distinguish'd , by the extraordinary gifts of the holy ghost , or their own personal worth ; and there is no probability that a meer number of years was then held sufficient to recommend a person to the highest office in the christian church . yet if there was sometime such preference given to seniority , and such a change made in some particular country , as the author mentions , i am not concern'd about it . but if you think , the ancient custom he speaks of , was universal , and that a departure from it over the world , was decreed by a general council , i would gladly know where it was assembled . blondel thinks , the alteration was introduced by the council of nice ; and for this , he directs us to the fourth canon of that council ; in which there is not a word of this matter , nor are there any footsteps of it in antiquity . but whatever was the ground of advancing persons to the office of bishops , manifest it is , that this commentator believ'd , the office it self was of divine institution , and superior to that of presbyters )g) . for he declares , that james was constituted bishop of jerusalem by the apostles , and that the apostles in general were bishops . he affirms , that timothy and titus , and the angels of the asiatick churches were bishops also . and in the bishop , says he , all orders are contain'd , because he is the prince or chief of the priests . and yet this is one of the fathers , by whose testimony , you are content , matters between us should be determin'd . another of them is s. jerom (i) , who informs us , i confess , that originally a presbyter was the same as a bishop ; and that at first the churches were govern'd by the common counsel of priests . but it must be consider'd that , according to him , the churches were only under that administration , till by the instigation of the devil divisions did arise , and one said i am of paul , and another said , i am of apollos , or i of cephas . and it may seem not a little for the advantage of episcopacy , if , as he intimates , it was the best means of extirpating schism when a presbyterian parity was found insufficient for that purpose : and if it was therefore establish'd over the world by universal decree , and that whilst many of the apostles were alive . (k) blondel i know assigns a later date to that decree , and would have us believe , that it was not made before the year 140. but i am much more inclin'd to think , that it was never made at all , than that this project was first set on foot to remove the seeds or beginnings of schisms almost a hundred years after they were sown at corinth , or after it was there said among the people , i am of paul , and i of apollos and i of cephas (l) . blondel saw this absurdity , and to avoid it , he falls into another . he would persuade us that the schisms here mention'd are such as did not disturb the church till a long time after the decease of paul and apollos and cephas , and did not arise amongst the corinthians , but others that imitated their example . but by this exposition he does not only force the words of the author from their plain literal meaning , without any necessity ; but also makes him contradict his own avowed sense , & say in effect that episcopacy was not instituted before the year 140 , notwithstanding , in his catalogue of ecclesiastical writers and other parts of his works , he hath left us an account of several bishops , distinct from presbyters , that were ordain'd by the apostles themselves . 't is true s. jerom sometimes in his heats , of which the cause is sufficiently known , let fall such words as seem inconsistent with the rights of episcopacy : yet if those words had been assaulted by his adversaries , he would not have been at a loss , but had made provision for a vindication of himself or a safe retreat , either by other expressions or the secret meaning of the same . he may seem to oppose the subordination of presbyters to the bishop as an innovation , or a departure from a former institution of government : yet he allows , as we have seen , that this departure was made about the time that s. paul writ his first epistle to the corinthians : he intimates that it was necessary ; and in his treatise against the luciferians he declares (m) that the welfare of the church depends on the dignity of the bishop , to whom , says he , if there be not granted a certain peerless authority , there will be as many schisms as there are priests . he may seem to believe that bishops were not constituted by any divine (n) order or disposal ; and perhaps he thought that they were not appointed by any precept of christ himself ; yet he denies not that they were ordained by those that had commission from him , and acted in his name and by his power . he may seem to be of opinion that the episcopal praeeminence or jurisdiction was at first a meer prudential contrivance and afterwards confirm'd by custom : yet in the production of it he ascribes no more to prudence than the laying hold on a sad occasion when it was offer'd , for its establishment (o) : and the custom he speaks of he resolves into apostolical tradition , and this he grounds on scripture . that we may know , says he (p) , that the apostolical traditions were taken out of the old testament , what aaron and his sons and the levites were in the temple , that may the bishops and presbyters and deacons challenge in the church . and this is as much as i demand . another of your authors is s. augustin ; who acquaints us indeed (q) , that the titles of bishop and presbyter were distinguish'd by custom . but it does not follow that there was not the same disparity of officers when those words were of promiscuous use , as there was afterwards , when they were limited in their signification . if this gives you not satisfaction , grotius will tell you (r) , what is agreeable to that which has been said already , that when the fathers speak of custom , they do not exclude an apostolical institution . nay , s. augustin says , that what hath been always held by the whole church , and was not appointed by councils , is most rightly believ'd to proceed from apostolical authority . and that he did not believe episcopacy was introduced into the church after the apostles decease appears from several instances and particularly from hence , that he thought the angels of the asiatick churches were their bishops (ſ) . thus far your witnesses have appear'd against you : and with them you have fitly join'd s. chrysostom , who says not , as you pretend , that there is no difference in a manner between bishops and priests , but that the difference is not great (t) : thereby intimating that some difference there was even in the apostles days , for of these he he speaks . and in this he tells us they were distinguish'd , that only the bishops had the power of ordination (u) . a thing so destructive of the cause for which you are concern'd , that the dissenters doubtless had rather see all the volumes of chrysostom in a flame , than be concluded by his testimony . after all , you must depend , i think , on the testimony of such as danaeus , buchanan , johannes major and hector boethius ; and of what authority these men are i come now to enquire . if we may believe danaeus , say you , epiphanius himself was at last compell'd to confess that in the age of the apostles no such distinction between bishops and presbyters , as i contend for , was to be found . to which i reply , if we may believe epiphanius himself , he confess'd no such matter . on the contrary , when he had represented aerius as the plague of mankind (w) : when he had expos'd and condemn'd his detestable ingratitude towards eustathius , and shew'd how he loaded his benefactor with calumnies because he was advanced to a bishoprick to which that modest leveller aspir'd : he then gives an account of this opinion of the heretick (x) , that there is no difference between a bishop and a presbyter ; which he censures as extremely foolish , and proceeds to the confutation of it . that a presbyter , says he (y) , cannot be the same with a bishop , the sacred word of the apostle declares . for thus he writes to timothy , rebuke not an elder but intreat him as a father (z) . but why should he forbid him to rebuke an elder , but that he had authority over him ? he admonishes him ver . 19. not to receive an accusation against an elder , but before two or three witnesses . but he did not give direction to any of the presbyters , not to receive an accusation against a bishop , not to rebuke a bishop . this then is a manifest argument of the disparity of those officers in the judgment of epiphanius . but if you can make him confess what he denies : if you can make him approve what he confutes ; and bring him to an agreement with one whom he represents as a prodigious villain and a monster ; then you may believe danaeus . but his credit labours much at present , and you have said nothing to relieve it . it hath been little for the honour of the presbyterian government that the father of it hath been thought to be aerius : but you think it is of more ancient and better extraction . the scots , you say , who receiv'd the knowledge of christianity in the first age , had not any knowledge for many ages after , that appears , of any but presbyterian jurisdiction . and for this you quote buchanan who tell us , that no bishop ever presided in the church of scotland before palladius his time , and that the church unto that time was govern'd by monks , without bishops , with less pride and outward pomp but greater simplicity and holiness . and if his word may be taken for it , this would be something to the purpose . but camden says (a) , that his history was condemn'd of falshood by the parliament of scotland , and that buchanan before his death bitterly accus'd himself of the calumnies he had divulged . so that however i have a great value for his wit and learning , i think no great credit is due to his testimony , since he wanted that veracity which is essential to a good historian . but here it seems we need not depend on his word alone : for he is warranted by the authority of johannes major , whose words you set down and they are to the same effect as the former . and really , say you , this testimony given by johannes major is very full . and who would not now think that this johannes major was an ancient father , that could give such a full and exact account of the primitive times ! yet did this man draw down his history of great britain as far as the marriage of k. henry viii . of england with the princess catherine of aragon , and dedicated it to k. james v. of scotland . he was alive says labbe in the year 1520. and one that would undertake to declare what men were doing above a thousand years before he was born , had need to vouch better authority than his own to gain belief . but john major is not the only evidence buchanan might have cited : beda , you tell me , says that palladius was sent unto the scots who believ'd in christ , as their first bishop . how great an advantage is it to have the faculty of close reasoning ! yet so dull am i that i do not perceive how the words of bede prove those of buchanan to be true . for , 1. palladius might be sent into scotland , and yet not into the country now call'd by that name and intended by buchanan . it might be into ireland , of which beda himself says (b) , that it is properly the country of the scots : and accordingly in claudian (c) , the scot is the irish man. and that palladius was sent to the irish scots hath been prov'd by those great antiquaries the bishops of s. asaph (d) and worcester (e) , to whom i refer you for satisfaction . 2. the christian faith hath no such dependance on monkery , but the scots might believe , though there had never been any monks in the world . and i take it to be manifest that there were none so early as you imagine . polydor vergil (e) ascribes the institution of monkery to s. antony who died , as he tells us , in the year 361. danaeus says (f) , that it began to be in request in egypt after the year 300 : and that it was later before it was receiv'd in europe . he attributes the invention of it to superstition and an idolatrous admiration of external things . he compares the monks to swarms of drones , and says that in the year 500. they were dispers'd and multiplied like the locusts in the revelation , upon the face of the whole earth . you see , sir , what sentiments your friend danaeus had of these men and of their institution : and little did he think , that the church of scotland was so happy in an excellent sort of presbyterian monks in the best and purest ages . s. jerom himself who had such a zeal for the monastick way of living , that he was willing to say as much for the honour of it as he was able , carries the original of it , notwithstanding , no higher than antony or paul the thebaean (g) . but which of them soever was the founder of it , it is not material , since they were cotemporaries and in the year 341. or thereabouts , one of them receiv'd a visit from the other . after their decease , the monks were despis'd in the west for the novelty of their constitution : and jerom complains (h) that in his time they were detested even at rome it self . so far is it from being true , that they had then made their progress as far as scotland , and flourish'd there in great reputation . it was therefore boldly done of hector boethius to tell the world (i) , that his countrymen , about the year 263. as blondel interprets his words , began diligently to embrace the christian faith , by the conduct and persuasion of certain monks . yet hardy as he was , you have exceeded hector himself . for you say , that the scots had the knowledge of christianity in the first age , which is much sooner than hector allows : and if your argument from beda perform what you design by it , these converted scots must have some kind of government , amongst them , and you undertake to shew from buchanan , that till the time of palladius the scottish church was govern'd by monks with more holiness and simplicity than it was afterwards by the bishops . and now , i think , it will follow from these things laid together , that the church of scotland was very well govern'd by the monks , whilst some of the apostles were alive , and after their decease till the year of our lord 430 (k) . and this makes more for the honour of monkery than any thing else , i have yet read . you have likewise such an opinion of the antiquity of the culdees that you censure bishop spotswood for insinuating , that in their time there were bishops of his order , which he did , you say , that he might magnifie his office. a strange and unadvised project ! that he should think to magnifie his office by telling us , there were prelates in scotland before the culdees were extinct , who were not in being till many ages after the death of palladius . and are not mention'd by any writer that liv'd within five hundred years of his time (l) . hector boethius , whom you quote , was alive in the year 1526. and yet he is the first , as the bishop of s. asaph observes (m) , that found that the monks were culdees , who are said by others as well as him , and of like credit , to have govern'd the church of scotland till the coming of palladius . he had no records of the primitive times to support his narrative , yet did not this abate the courage of hector , who knew how to supply that defect by a fertile invention . he made a bishop of s. alban's cloak , and call'd it s. amphibalus . he placed it in the isle of man , and there he put culdees under it . and at the same rate he might have scotland converted when he would , and by whom he pleas'd , and bestow on them what titles he thought convenient . 't is certain he was a very fabulous writer and in your letter of feb. 9. your self represented him as a romancer and his story of the culdees you call'd romancing : yet now you depend on it as good substantial evidence ; and this shews to what wretched shifts you are driven rather than you will acknowledge that you have been mistaken . chap. xvi . prelacy is no degeneracy from an apostolical constitution . the pastours of the church that came next after the apostles did not conspire to deprave any form of government which was of divine appointment . if we may not believe the ridiculous fable of the scottish monks , you have not been able to prove , that any part of the christian world , for many ages after the decease of the apostles , was without episcopal government . yet , as if the matter were clear on your side , and past all doubt , you take it for granted , that prelacy is a degeneracy from an apostolical constitution . you pretend to have observ'd the springs and motions by which it was advanced ; and to discover , on what grounds it was introduced , and by what degrees it grew up to that grandeur in which it now appears . 1. you say the defection began on tabernacle grounds † , and by pretences of some analogy unto the orders of that fabrick . and a little before you tell me , that when the judaizing opinion , which prevail'd mightily even in the days of the apostles , had , after their decease , diffus'd and spread it self farther , so that christians came into the admiration of the orders , beauty and pomp of the temple , which was but a fixed tabernacle , and christianity it self became consider'd ( as by some this day ) but as another kind of judaism , then ministers were turned into priests , deacons to levites . a wonderful transformation at such a time ! and it may seem very strange , that the christians should be much more charm'd with the beauty and pomp of the temple , when it was laid in ashes , than they were when it stood in its glory . to deal plainly with you , i take this to be very absurd , and inconsistent with the best records , we have , of the first ages . for it appears from them , that the weak brethren , as they were call'd , were most zealous at the first for the mosaical rites ; and that s. paul himself did more in compliance with them and the jews , than all the bishops in the world in the following century . the truth is , when an end was put to the jewish polity , the judaizers made a sect by themselves : and the pastours of the church thought fit to bury the mosaical rites in the ruins of the temple , and vigorously asserted their freedom from them . at least they let them fall by degrees : and 't is observable , that when the great controversie was rais'd about the keeping of easter , however they that contended , it ought to be observ'd exactly at the time of the jewish passover , had more to say for themselves from tradition , yet the matter was carried and determin'd on the side of christian liberty . but that liberty doth not leave all things indifferent that were drawn by analogy from the jewish laws or customs . for such things there are , and some of them of perpetual use . amongst these i reckon baptism and the supper of the lord (n) . the ordination of officers by imposition of hands (n) . the maintenance of those that minister in things sacred (o) , and the distribution of them into several ranks (p) . all these institutions had their basis in the jewish practices , and with some variation from the original , were consecrated to serve the purposes of christianity , and that by unquestionable authority . by such authority one is justified in ascribing to ecclesiastical officers the title of priests ; for it may seem , that they were opposers of such as did bear it , who are said by s. jude to have perish'd in the gainsaying of core , ver . 11. and manifest it is , and it has been generally acknowledg'd , that the almighty speaks of the professors of christianity where he says , i will take of them for priests and for levites . isai . 66.21 . and from hence we may gather , 1. that the christian church is such a society as should have its own spiritual officers chosen out of the rest of the faithful of any nation , and remaining distinct from them . 2. that the titles of priests and levites , which have been so often attributed to the officers of the christian church , had not their original from the meer fancies of the ancient fathers ; much less were they an invention of later times , but are founded on an expression of the holy scripture . 3. that amongst these officers there should be such disparity as had been under the law amongst the posterity of levi. 2. you pretend to discover by what degrees prelacy grew up to its present grandeur . and you tell me , one need but some experience in the course of things and a little proportion of mother wit , to make a clear and distinct conception of what you have said on this subject . you believe , that all presbyters were equal by a divine institution : yet notwithstanding that appointment of heaven , it was requisit , you say , for orders sake (*) , that in every assembly one should have the direction , and 't is most probable , the eldest presbyter had the first place and the first direction of matters . yet probable as it is , if one should affirm that 't is a meer conjecture of mother wit , you have said nothing that may be sufficient to confute him . however , this must be made the first prudential reason for a departure from a divine institution , and the first step towards the degeneracy of succeeding times . but this state of affairs did not long continue : another prudential reason appears to justle out the former , and introduces another step to corruption : for it was found by experience , you say , that the eldest was not always the worthiest and fittest for the direction of matters . a very notable discovery ! but it may seem a little strange , that men inspir'd , or but of ordinary capacity , did not foresee this ; and that no care was taken to prevent the inconveniences of the last contrivance . it also seems incredible , that the old men should be so easily degraded from their accustomed precedence and suffer their juniors to be pearcht into their places . they must be suppos'd to be persons of a very complaisant humour , tho they had no great proportions of mother-wit , seeing they would yield up their title and dignity of first presbyters without the least murmur or complaint . but that 's no matter , once upon a time , all the world over , it came to pass that the place devolv'd not by seniority but was confer'd by election made by all the presbyters and not unlikely but with prayer and imposition of hands . things very piously reckon'd amongst the means of depraving the institution of christ ! and now the first presbyter by this new ordination begins to look pretty like a bishop , yet he had no more authority in the college of presbyters than is by all protestants allow'd to peter in that of the apostles . but one step more brings him to the episcopal throne . for the best men are but flesh and blood † , and the best institutions liable to rust and canker . there was a diotrephes in the apostles own times , and those that follow'd after improv'd upon the example . and so the first presbyter soon became advanced into another order , and from being first , commenced prince of the presbyters . a great and sudden change ! and the thing was managed with so much fineness , that it was conceal'd many hundred years above a thousand : and it may seem strange that it should be discover'd at last , not from any ancient writings or credible informations , but by experience in the course of things and some proportions of mother-wit . authors indeed you quote , and several arguments you have , by which you would prove that corruptions were introduced into the church in such a manner as you have describ'd ; but you had much better have left us to depend wholly on your own word , than at all have produced them . since they can only serve to expose the weakness of your cause . one of those arguments you ground on 1 tim. 5.17 . (*) . where s. paul says , let the elders that rule well be accounted worthy of double honour , especially they who labour in the word and doctrine . from hence you gather , that there was a distinction of elders ; and that some of them being better at ruling and some at preaching , they exercis'd themselves according to the talent , they had ; those that were better at ruling in ruling , and those that were better at preaching in labouring in the word and doctrine . and you farther conclude that there was always a first presbyter , and make no question but he was of the number of those that labour'd in the word . and i make no question , but here you have put together several things that might better have been omitted . for you suppose , that the elders who labour'd in the word and doctrine , were excell'd by others in ruling ; whereas all that the apostle mentions in this place are such as rule well . and then to those that you conceive were better at preaching than at ruling , you attribute the praeeminence in ruling , or that chief direction of matters in the consistories which belongs to the place of presidents . and this i think is sufficiently absurd . but what is worst of all , is , you make a text of scripture a foundation of one of the steps to corruption . an instance of some that were better at ruling than at preaching , you think , you have found in the epistle of clemens romanus to the corinthians ; and if you had , the matter is not great , since all that you would infer from thence is , that others were prefer'd before them who were not so well qualified , as themselves for the administration of the government . i am willing however to see the exercise of your critical faculty . you think then , that they who are said by clemens to have politiz'd well (q) were the presbyters , that ruled , rather than preach'd , well . but you might have found , that in another place , this father tells us , that peter and paul politiz'd divinely (r) ( if i may borrow your expression ) and doubtless did not mean thereby to distinguish them from preaching apostles . you might also have found that when he upbraids some for not politizing as they ought (ſ) , he meant not to reflect on them as bad governours , but in general as persons that did not walk (t) worthy of christ . these things so plainly shew your mistake , that you will not , i believe review your criticism with any great satisfaction . for an example of one that was better at preaching than at ruling and was a first presbyter , you produce the president (*) mention'd by justin martyr . and 't is true that preaching was the work of that president ; for so it appears from justin (u) : and it is as true , that he govern'd in chief ; for he was a bishop , as grotius will inform you ; whose learning , you , with so much reason admire . but of what use this can be to you , unless it be to overthrow what you would establish by it , i do not understand . you have some other quotations from the fathers which i need not here examine , having done it already . but i proceed to shew , that it is altogether improbable that the pastours of the church , who came next after the apostles , should conspire to deprave a divine institution . and this , i think will appear , if it be consider'd , 1. that they were persons of admirable holiness and virtue . 2. if they had not been such , they could not so suddenly have agreed in the same design , to corrupt the church , as you contend , in the same manner . 1. they were persons of admirable holiness and virtue . clemens alexandrinus (w) gives an account , what care s. john took of the churches after his return from patmos , and that he admitted such into the clergy as were design'd or distinguish'd by the holy ghost . and , as i noted before , irenaeus says (x) , the apostles were desirous , that they should be very perfect and unblamable in all things , whom they left to be their successors , to whom they committed their own place of government . and can we imagine that such persons as these conspir'd to deprave an institution of christ ? when they daily expos'd their lives to danger ; when they despis'd the vngulae and catastae , the rage of savage boasts and more savage men ; when a firm adherence to their religion expos'd them to the scourge or the cross , the axe or the fire , and when they express'd such a chearful readiness to embrace the sorest evils that could be inflicted on them , and death it self under the most dreadful circumstances , rather than deny their master , were they then contriving to ruin his discipline , or caballing to make themselves great ▪ or if the mystery of iniquity did so generally work in the prelates , who are suppos'd to have usurpt authority over their brethren , was there not an honest presbyter in the world to put them in mind of their duty , or to admonish them to keep their station ? was there not one upon earth that would oppose their innovations , or plainly tell them , that by the appointment of heaven all presbyters are equal ? if the presbyters had no regard for their own authority , had they no concern for their masters glory ? had they no remembrance of what the apostles taught , or of the instructions for the government of the church which they had given ? did they , not only quietly see the degeneracy spread apace , but help it forward , by relinquishing the trust and authority committed to them by the holy ghost ? we have no reason certainly to suspect any such matters of them : but if we had , i should dread the consequences of it . 2. if the bishops who liv'd in the next age to that of the apostles had not been persons of so much perfection and virtue , yet they could not so suddenly have agreed to corrupt the church in the same manner . arnobius disputing against the gentiles says in vindication of the history of christianity , (y) if that be false , whence comes it to pass , that the whole world was in so short a time fill'd with this religion : or how came nations so distant to receive it with one consent ? and in like manner i may demand , if prelacy be a defection from an institution of christ or his apostles , how came it to gain so early an admission amongst persons of so many different countries and languages ! how came it so suddenly to be establish'd in all the churches upon the face of the earth ? you say , that ecclesiastical prelates arose at best by occasion , and prudentially upon the increase of believers : but how did they every where meet with the like occasions ? how came all the churches in the world to act by the same prudential rules ? if you can shew , how all the bishops upon earth agreed to exalt themselves above their brethren , and how the presbyters every where so suddenly consented in their submission to them , you are the man of the world fittest to write a commentary on the philosophy of epicurus , and to prove that his atoms , by their accidental concourse , perform'd all the feats and wonders that have been attributed to them . that i have not been singular in matching such improbabilities , may appear from the words of mr. chillingworth , which i shall here set down . when i shall see (z) , says he , all the fables in the metamorphosis acted and prove stories : when i shall see all the democracies and aristocracies in the world lie down and sleep , and awake into monarchies : then will i begin to believe , that presbyterial government , having continued in the church during the apostles times , should presently after , against the apostles doctrine and the will of christ , be whirl'd about like a scene in a masque , and transform'd into episcopacy . in the mean time , continues my author , whilst these things remain thus incredible , and , in human reason , impossible , i hope i shall have leave to conclude thus : episcopal government is acknowledged to have been universally receiv'd in the church presently after the apostles times . between the apostles times and this presently after , there was not time enough for , nor possibility of , so great an alteration . and therefore there was no such alteration , as is pretended . and therefore episcopacy being confessed to be so ancient and catholick , must be granted also to be apostolick . chap. xvii . episcopacy cannot be thought a degeneracy from an apostolical constitution , if the testimony of the fathers may be admitted : their testimony vindicated . it is certain that the testimony of the fathers cannot be admitted to determine the controversie between us , but with the ruine of your cause , it being altogether inconsistent with your opinion , that episcopacy was not of a divine or apostolical appointment , but introduced prudentially , and gradually advanced upon the steps to corruption . even of that select company , who as you say , were as pious and learned fathers as any the churches ever own'd , and to whom you profess'd your adherence , there was not a man , who did not believe , that bishops were constituted by christ himself or his apostles , or by both . you have one refuge however yet remaining , which is , to reject those as incompetent witnesses , who upon examination appear against you . and accordingly you tell me * , that the fathers wrote things they saw not , and fram'd matters according to their own conceits , and many of them were tainted with partial humours . you farther add † , that the catalogues of the succession of bishops , which eusebius has given us , are only conjectural and traditionary ( words fitly join'd together ! ) that himself tells us , there was a great chasm in ecclesiastical history for the three first centuries : ay , that in the third book of that history chap. 4. he says expresly , as to the persons that succeeded the apostles in the government of the churches , that it is hard to tell particularly and by name , who they were : and that in making his catalogues , he went by way of collection and inference from what is written by s. paul , &c. but the sum of what eusebius does indeed say in that place , of those that were the disciples of the apostles , and succeeded them in the government of the churches , is only this , that it is hard to determine , how many , and who they were (a) ; yet from the words of s. paul , the names of some of them may be gather'd . he does not say , that he could give an account of none that were constituted governours of the apostolick churches , except those that were mention'd by that apostle : nor does he say , as you would have him , that he found the names of some in scripture , and tack'd bishopricks to them from his own fancy . on the contrary , he acquaints us in the chapter to which you refer me , that dionysius the areopagite was the first bishop of athens ; where he did not establish him by way of collection and inference : nor does he pretend to ground the relation he hath left us of him , on the words either of s. paul , or s. luke , or on his own invention : but he had it from dionysius of corinth ; whom he calls a most ancient writer , and that with good reason , for he flourish'd about the middle of the second century . from an epistle of the same dionysius of corinth (b) he was inform'd , that publius succeeded the areopagite in the government of the church of athens , and suffer'd martyrdom ; and that quadratus succeeded publius . and this is that quadratus (c) , who was a disciple of the apostles , and who declar'd in his apology for the christians , which he presented to the emperor hadrian , that he had seen many that had been cur'd , and rais'd from death by our lord himself . and that a person of such eminence should be bishop of athens , after such predecessors as he had , is more for the advantage of episcopacy , than all the quotations are against it , that have been heaped up by blondel in his laborious collections : and i am persuaded , that if an instance so early and so well attested , could have been produced in favour of a presbyterian parity , it had long since made a mighty noise , and alarm'd the world. 't is true , eusebius is the first that left us a body of ecclesiastical history : but he did not frame it out of his own conjectures . himself hath given us an account of the helps he had from others that were before him ; and valesius will present you at one view with a catalogue of books and records , out of which he drew materials for his work , that are very considerable . they are not so many indeed as one might have desir'd : yet as king charles the first observes (d) , with his usual exactness of judgment , even the darkness of the primitive times affords a very strong argument for episcopacy , which from the history of them , obscure as they were , receives so full and clear a proof , as scarce any other matter of fact hath found the like . against tertullian you object * , that many fob traditions past for current in his time : an exception that would destroy the credit of all the books that ever were written , if it were of force against any ; for fob traditions , as you call them , have pass'd for current amongst some in every age since the days of adam . but tertullian himself , you think , was one that transmitted such traditions to posterity , and particularly you are offended at him for reporting that the apostles had chairs in particular churches : and yet you are not sure , that this ought to be laid to his charge . only , you tell me , his words at first sight may seem to sound that way . a notable way of confuting the fathers , grounded on the sense of one of them , and that not certain neither , but taken from his words , as at first sight they seem to sound . one might have expected , that you should have spent a thought or two more about them , before you pass'd your censure on them , or reckon'd the author amongst the fabulous writers , and made him an instance of the partiality or impostures of the ancients . for my part , i think he meant by chairs , what you so quickly apprehended at the first glance , and that bishops sate in the material seats of the apostles in the administration of the government . and yet i see nothing in this that is incredible . it is neither contrary to the faith of history , nor without example in it . nor is it improbable , that before adoration was pay'd to reliques , the chairs of the apostles should be preserv'd about a hundred years . sure i am , that he might better judge of such a matter of fact , than we can at this time . and i know not , why this word may not as well be accepted when he discourses of these chairs , as when he adds (e) , that the authentick letters of the apostles were read in the apostolick churches . but whatever he meant by the chairs , 't is plain enough , he thought , the bishops were the successors of the apostles in particular dioceses or churches : and if you can no more believe this , than the story of the cells of the seventy interpreters , though justin martyr affirms , that he saw the ruines of those very cells , and that they were in the pharos of alexandria , i cannot help it . nor do i think it necessary to enter into a dispute about the truth or falshood of justin's relation . but since that which he says of those cells depends on the credit of some unknown alexandrians ; since they were reported to have been built in the pharos only , and that about four hundred years before he writ his paraenesis to the greeks : and since the tradition which he hath convey'd to us about them , was not universally receiv'd , but was with some disdain rejected by s. jerom , the most learned critick of his age ; it was not , in any of these respects , parallel to the account which i have given from tertullian and others , concerning the original of bishops ; nor is there any such connexion between them , as that they must stand or fall together . there is such clear evidence , that the churches were govern'd by bishops in the beginning of the second century , that it hath extorted a confession from the most learned adversaries : and if we had never been told , that they were constituted by the apostles or apostolical persons , or deriv'd their power by succession from them , the thing had notwithstanding been probable . but there is not the least reason to doubt of it , when we find it so universally believ'd by the ancient church : and particularly when tertullian asserts it in such a manner , as he does , and urges it with so much assurance against the hereticks . for if he had no grounds for it , i should not say that he was tainted with partial humours and framed matters according to his own conceit , but that he was void of common sense ; and as extravagant , as a protestant would be at this day , if , to confute the exceptions of papists against the meanness of some of the first reformers , he should affirm with great confidence , and insist on it as a thing too notorious to be deny'd , that calvin succeeded peter de la baume in the bishoprick of geneva , and that luther and melancthon were spiritual princes of the empire , and electors of germany . we are now almost at twice the distance from the beginning of luther's reformation , as tertullian was from the days of the apostles : and we are more remote from the coming of king james the first to the crown of england , than irenaeus was from the death of s. john , when he argued against the valentinians ▪ from the succession of bishops to the apostles , in the government of the churches . and what he said of it must then have appear'd either so palpably false , that it would have expos'd him and his cause to derision , or so evidently true , that your exceptions against it , would at that time , have been to the same effect , as if a dissenter should now declare . that the conformists had in this last age introduced several corruptions into the church , and episcopacy amongst the rest ; that in the reign of queen elizabeth all the ministers in the kingdom were equal , but after her decease the defection began , and was afterwards gradually carried on till the prelats arriv'd at their present greatness . that one need but some experience in the use of things , and a little proportion of mother wit to discover this , and to make a clear and distinct conception of it ; that however the bishops might pretend , that they had predecessors in the last century , and produce for it the testimony of many authors , yet those authors were tainted with partial humours , and there were fob traditions passed for current in their time , so that we are under no obligation to believe them . and now , sir , i leave you to judge , whether a person that should discourse seriously in such a manner , were fit to be argued with , or to be managed another way , according to the rules of art. you have another bold stroke yet remaining , which is † , that the catalogues of bishops deduced from the apostles , for ought you see , deserves but little more credit , as being but little better ascertain'd , than the catalogues of the british kings deduced from brute ; and this falls heavy upon s. jerom , as well as others ; for he approv'd such catalogues , and hath helpt to convey them to posterity . when you press'd him into your service , you made honourable mention of him under the titles of pious and learned , of which he must make a forfeiture , when he stands in your way ; and though he only confirms , by his own suffrage , what was generally believ'd in former ages , yet in that c●…se ; for ought you see , his word deserves little more credit than the most absurd or groundless fables . for such are the stories of brute , and the kings of his line : they have no foundation in any ancient history , or authentick records ; but about two thousand years after the time of brute's reputed landing at totness , they were first publish'd to the world. he that gave the first reputation to them , was geoffrey of monmouth , who is call'd by one of our antiquaries (f) , the english homer , and the father of lies . and as for his brutus ▪ some have observ'd , as mr. camden acquaints us (e) , that he was never hoard of , till , in a barbarous age , one hunibald a foolish writer , feign'd that francion a son of priamus , was the founder of the french nation . but then a report was rais'd , that our country-men were descended from the trojans , and our princes from this brutus ; who was said to be the son of sylvius , and grand-son of aeneas ; and 't is no wonder , that , in the times of the thickest ignorance , a fiction so agreeable was entertain'd and propagated amongst our ancestors , who disdain'd that their neighbours should excel them in extraction , whom they equal'd in courage . and now if any shall affirm , that as much , or near as much , may be said against the testimonies of the fathers asserting the succession of bishops to the apostles , i must beg your excuse , if i tell him , in the words of a late author , for whom i know you have some fondness , that he has not wip'd his eyes , but is moist with prejudice and passion . it is not any want of clearness or strength in the testimony , which the fathers give concerning the original of episcopacy , that drew from you the odious reflections which you cast on them ; but the force there is in it to demonstrate , that the strokes and lineaments of your scheme of church-government , are meerly the work of fancy , and that you have employ'd your pen in the service of a bad cause . this appears from what has been said already ; and i shall here add nothing more to confirm it , but one instance , which , i think , i may safely oppose against all that ever was written for the presbyterian equality of ministers , from the days of aerius , to this very moment . the instance i intend , is that of polycarp , who is not only said to have been bishop of smyrna by polycrates (h) and tertullian (i) , who flourish'd not long after him , and by eusebius (k) , jerom (l) , socrates (m) , sozomen (n) , victor capuanus (o) , suidas (p) , and many others , who liv'd at a greater distance from him , but by such as knew him , and could not be ignorant of his character . there were many that had the advantage of his ministry : many that had liv'd under his government in the church of smyrna , and were eye-witnesses of his martyrdom , who expresly declare (q) , that he was their bishop . this they do in an epistle which is yet extant , and which the famous joseph scaliger (r) , critical as he was , so highly approv'd and valu'd , that he reckons it amongst the noblest monuments of christian antiquity , and professes , that he could not read it , without something of extasie . s. irenaeus , who was his scholar , informs us likewise (s) , that he was bishop of smyrna . and the same is attested by s. ignatius (t) , who was not only his contemporary , but his friend , as also by philo and agathopus ; who acquaint us further (u) that ignatius , on whom they attended being in his way to rome , where he was about to be torn in pieces by wild beasts , for the christian faith , paid a visit to polycarp at smyrna , and that both these excellent men had been train'd up under the same master , and were the disciples of s. john. but if s. polycarp was bishop of smyrna , he was not the only minister there ; for he begins his epistle to the philippians thus , (w) polycarp and the presbyters that are with him . and from these presbyters he had no reason to distinguish himself , as he does , if both of them had born the same office. but in what manner he stood related to them , may appear from hence , that there was not one of all the ancients , i have cited , to prove that he was a bishop , who meant not that he was a prelate . and if enquiry be made , how he obtain'd his office , from tertullian (x) , and (y) jerom , and many others , we learn , that it was convey'd to him by s. john. but s. john , it seems , was not alone in that action ; for irenaeus tells us (z) , that polycarp was not only taught by the apostles , but constituted by them bishop of smyrna : and his words deserve the greater credit , because he was a hearer of polycarp in his younger years (a) , and understood doubtless what place he had in the church , and the manner of his advancement to it . i need make no inferences from this example , because it is so obvious , that it destroys your hypothesis . chap. xviii . the testimony of the fathers is necessary for the ascertaining to us the canon of the holy scripture : it is as cogent for the divine original of episcopacy . there are some that will hardly hear with patience any arguments that are drawn from the authority of the fathers ; because , as they conceive or pretend , it favours the papists : a thing very acceptable to the papists , could it be prov'd . but we do them too much honour , if we believe , that the ancient tradition is on their side , when some of the most learned amongst them dare lay no claim to it , for the support of those doctrines wherein they differ from us : and many of their greatest bigots have found themselves so press'd by it , that they have appeal'd from it to their oracle for the time being ; the pope , i mean , to whom cornelius mussus (b) , one of their number , profess'd , that he attributed more credit , than to a thousand austins , jeroms and gregories : and so ends the noise of antiquity , vniversality and consent . it is not my business here to attempt a vindication of the fathers , any farther than it answers my present design ; and i shall only observe , that they that despise them most , are sometimes forced to serve themselves of their authority . for example , gittichius says (c) , that his friends , who had read their books , found them plunged into the profoundest ignorance , hardly understanding so much as one article of the christian faith , but , like blind men , moving irregularly , and with a trembling pace . and such confidence he had , that the censures which his party had pass'd on them were just , or rather too modest , that he declares , the truth of the christian religion was wholly lost a little after the death of the apostles , and commends flaccius illyricus , for comparing the disputations of the fathers to a fight of drunkards at a feast , who are not solicitous to betake themselves to their swords , but supply the want of weapons with dishes or trenchers , with bread , or any thing that comes to hand . yet his friends sometimes make use of the testimony of those whom he so impudently charges with apostasie and folly , and whom they are wont to reproach ; and they depend on it in matters of great importance . they prove from thence in the racovian catechism , that our lord rose from the dead , as the scriptures relate , and that the several books of the new testament were written by the persons whose names they bear , herein following the example of their master socinus (e) , who argues from the unanimous consent of the primitive christians , that the four gospels , the acts of the apostles , &c. were written by those to whom they are attributed : and for this , he refers us to eusebius . at other times he treated the ancients with great contempt , because they stood in the way of this animal of glory , when he was resolv'd to make himself the head of a sect : yet he plainly shews , that for the vindication of the authority of the holy scripture an assent is necessary and due to their suffrage . and others , who ascribe very little to that suffrage , cannot but perceive , if they will attentively consider it , that when there is a dispute about some passages or parts of the holy scripture , whether they are genuine or not , one would render himself extreamly ridiculous , that should reject the testimony of the fathers as useless on this occasion , and go about to determine the controversie , and to convince gainsayers by his own instinct , or the dictates of a private spirit . but if , immediately after the apostles decease , there was a general departure from that rule of government which they appointed ; if all the primitive bishops were usurpers of the rights of those whom heaven had made their equals , and all the presbyters upon earth did tamely abandon that power which god had given them , and all the christians in the world with one consent approv'd and promoted the evil designs of the former , and the treachery of the last ; and if we must believe that the primitive writers conspir'd to put a cheat upon us , in the representations they have made of the affairs of the church , i would then be inform'd , what assurance we can have , that they have convey'd to us the true canon of scripture : for it may seem , that if they were men so extreamly corrupt , they deserv'd no great credit in any thing , and might be suspected to have made as bold with the oracles of god , as they had done with his institution of church-government . i make no doubt to affirm , that the testimony of the fathers is at least as cogent for the divine original of episcopacy , as it is when they ascertain to us the canon of scripture ; which yet is like to suffer nothing by this comparison . for if we reject them as false witnesses when they inform us , that bishops were appointed by the apostles , we must not only believe , as i have intimated already , that the pastors of the church , notwithstanding their great distance from one another , and their different customs and interests , generally hit , at the same time , upon the same project , to destroy that ecclesiastical polity , which had christ for its founder ; but that every where they had the same fatal success . we must also believe , that however government is a very nice thing , and is not usually changed without fears , and jealousies , and mighty clamours ; and however the alterations of the forms of government are so easily observed , yet did the rising prelates give so dextrous and nimble a turn to the government of the church , over all the world , that that there was not the least notice taken of it ; or else we must believe , that they destroy'd all the records of that transaction , so that no monuments remain of their ambition . and this we must also believe against the declarations of those that were conversant with the apostles , and their immediate successors ; against the informations of martyrs and confessors in the best and purest times ; and against the common faith of christians for above a thousand years after the death of our saviour . being thus credulous , we shall much resemble one vilgardus of ravenna , mention'd by glaber rodulphus , who asserted , that all the sayings of the poets ought in every point to be believ'd . and when we are arriv'd at that pitch of sense , no body , i suppose , will be much concern'd at what we contradict , or care to dispute with us , who are only fit for the entertainments of inchanted castles . thus , sir , i have consider'd your objections against that authority , which i still think , our saviour confer'd on the pastors of his church ; and also your exceptions against the divine right of episcopacy : and i am apprehensive , that i need an excuse , rather for paying you too nice an attendance , than for neglecting any thing of moment , either in your printed or manuscript papers . but what comes not within the compass of my present design , may be examin'd in the second part of this treatise , in which you may expect a review of your way of managing this controversie , which i omit at present , being willing to give you and my self some respite , who am , sir , your faithful servant , &c. novemb. 2. 1691. finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a30625-e150 * il primo di mantenere le sette contra la chiesa d' inghilterra , sperando con questo mezo di destrugerla più tosto , rispetto alle tante animosita intestine , che senza dubbio haurebbono aperte più facilmente le porte al papismo : il secondo che sotto questo pretesto di toleratione de settari , non potessero le leggi haver campo libero all' esecuttione , in quello che riguarda la religione , e cosi fosse più facile a loro preti d' avanzar la religione romana . * nat. of church-government , p. 46 , 47. ‖ p. 46. * p. 47. ‖ see his speech a. d. 1640. in nalson's collect. vol. 1. p. 758. * regina haud ignara suam authoritatem per episcoporum latera in hoc negotio peti , &c. camd. hist . eliz. a. d. 1591. ‖ view of the troubles in england , p. 13. * june 20. a. d. 1616. ‖ see k. j ' s. works , p. 382. lond. 1616. * ibid. p. 160. ‖ episcopacy not prejudicial to the regal power , p. 99. * speech in parliament , may 22. 1685. * ep. ded. * see goodwin . theom . p. 48 , &c. ‖ owen . true nature of the gospel-church , p. 30. * answer to 32. quest . ‖ cartwright . reply to whitgift , p. 181. * let. ms. ‖ see his epistle dedicatory . * see his way to peace . ‖ p. 1. * p. 6. * a. d. 1640. see nals . collect. vol. 1. p. 771. * octob. 12. a. d. 1658. ‖ see the preface before their declaration , &c. * vox clamantis , sect . 6. * p. 50. ‖ p. 53. * p. 50. notes for div a30625-e3600 (a) john 12.32 . (b) ver. 33. (c) marq. freher . in append . ad dissert . de numism . census . (d) vid. sciop . ep. ad fulgent . edit . à colomesio inter observat . sacr. p. 6 , &c. (e) vid. thuan . de vit . suâ . l. 1. (f) compare matth. 16.19 . with john 20.23 . (g) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . (h) clem. rom. ep. ad corinth . c. 57. p. 121. ed. oxon. 1677. (i) t. h. (k) lev. c. 42. (l) john 18.36 . (m) v. theophylact . comment . in evangel . ed. rom. p. 558. (n) matth. 9.6 . (o) john 13.13 . (p) mat. 28.18 . (q) 1 cor. 15.25 . (r) mat. 19.28 . (s) loviath . c. 42. (t) see john 7.39 . & 12.16 . 1 pet. 1.21 . (u) lev. c. 42. p. 373. (w) mat. 23.10 . (x) 2 cor. 1.24 . (y) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) &c. justin . cod. lib. 1 : tit . 1. leg . 6. (z) t. h. lev. c. 38. p. 241. (a) leviath . c. 42. p. 271. (b) 2 kings 5.17 . (c) leviath . c. 39. p. 248. (d) we command you , &c. 2 thess . 3.6 . see also , v. 4 , 12. 1 thess . 4.11 . (e) it is manifest , that christ hath not left to his ministers in this world , unless they be also indu'd with civil authority , any authority to command other men . t. h. lev. c. 42. p. 271. (f) act. 4.19 . & 5.29 . (g) 1 tim. 5.17 . 1 thess . 5.12 , 13. heb. 13.17 . (h) letter of aug. 10. (i) heb. 1.14 . (k) 1 cor. 9.19 . (l) 2 cor. 11.7 . 1 cor. 9.18 , 19. (m) 1 cor. 9.6 , 12. 2 thess . 3.9 . (n) 1 tim. 5.18 . (o) 1 cor. 9.14 . (p) vid. pignor . de serv. p. 7 , &c. ed. amst . 1674. (q) 1 cor. 5.3 , 4 , 5. (r) 2 cor. 10.6 . (s) 2 cor. 13.10 . (t) 2 cor. 2.9 . (u) 1 cor. 4.21 . (w) 2 cor. 13.2 (x) p. 35. (y) lactant. p. 452. ed. oxon. (z) p. 19. (a) p. 30 , 31. (b) p. 19. (c) vid. tertul. apolog. c. 39. p. 31. ed. paris . 1675. (d) origen . contra ●els . l. 8. p. 426 , 427. ed. spencer . tertul . apolog. c. 30. p. 27. arnob . adv . gent. l. 4. p. 152. ed. ludg. bat. 1651. (e) vid. theophyl . ad autolyc . l. 3. p. 233. ed. oxon. 1684. just . mart. apolog. 2. p. 64. (f) vid. plin. ep. 97. (g) vid. plin. ibid. & elmenhorst observat . in arn●b . p. 151. (h) haec coitio christianorum meritò sanè illicita , si illicitis par ; meritò damnanda , si non dissimilis damnandis — hoc sumus congregati , quod & dispersi : hoc universi , quod & singuli , neminem laedentes , neminem contristantes . tertul. apolog. c. 39. p. 32. (i) allat . de eccles . occident . & orient . perpet . consens . l. 1. c. 20. col. 295. (k) lib. 1. c. 2. col. 12. (l) principi ecclesiae dic , & si eum etiam non audit , &c. xavier . hist . christ . interpret . lud. de dieu , p. 370. (m) animadvers . in locum . (n) nunquam fides petri , qui successor primus est , deficiet , & opus ejus confirmare alios est . atque ità factum est , nam usque ad hodiernum diem nulli papae , qui derivatio ex vicario petro est , in fide defectus fuit . xav. ubi supra , p. 446. calipha ( pers . ) quod nomen summi imperatoris est vel pontificis , &c. lud. de dieu , in loc . (o) p. 10. (p) p. 13. (q) mat. 20.21 . (r) mat. 16.18 , 19. (s) gal. 2. (u) p. 1. (w) mat. 10. (x) luke 10. (y) blondel . apolog . sect. 3. p. 118. (z) p. 6. (a) p. 4. (b) psal . 109.8 . (c) act. 1.20 . (d) meminisse autem diaconi debent , quoniam apostolos , id est , episcopos & praepositos dominus elegit ▪ cyprian . ep. 3. p. 6. (e) apostoli episcopi sunt . hilar. in ep. ad ephes . c. 4. v. 11. (f) omnibus persuasum video hanc potestatem in petro fuisse ordinariam , quae transeat in successores , in aliis vero apostolis fuisse extraordinariam sive delegatam , quae morte illorum extincta fuerit . petr. de marca in opuse . p. 110. (g) quod attinet ad apostolos — certum est eos amplitis in ecclesiâ christi non inveniri . et enim causa , ob quam illi electi & missi & dati à deo fuere , desiit : ea verò fuit quod per eos deus doctrinam filii sui mundo primum annunciari & confirmari voluerit . catechism . racov. sect. 9. c. 2. (h) vid. nicephor . h. e. l. 18. c. 45. (i) — 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 barnab . ep. sect. 6. (k) joh. 20.24 . 1 cor. 15.5 . (l) rev. 21.14 . (n) moulin . vat. l. 2. c. 14. p. 54. (o) quia apostoli in orbem terrarum mittendi forent ad omnium gentium informationem , non auribus tantùm sed & oculis praedicandam fidem capere debebant , ut quod firmiùs didicissent constantius edocerent . (p) gen. 9. (q) quod per eos deus doctrinam filii sui mundo primum annunciari & confirmari voluerit — vocati fuere fundamentum ecclesiae , &c. catechism . racov. sect. 9. c. 2. (r) casaub . exercit. 15. ad annal. baron . sect. 13. (s) res sunt affines petra & fundamentum , & pro eodem ponuntur : differunt nimirum non re , sed ratione tantùm , &c. ibid. (t) vid. socrat. h. e. l. 1. c. 19. (u) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 clem. rom. ep. ad cor. c. 42. (w) chrysost . c. 4. p. 268. ed. savil. (x) vid. sigon . de rep. heb. l. 6. c. 7. selden . de syn. heb. l. 2. p. 77. (y) vid. cun. de rep. heb. lib. 1. c. 12. (z) num. 16. (a) num. 17.5 . (b) v. 10. (c) joseph . antiq . lib. 3. c. 8. (d) vid. bernard . not. in joseph . antiq. p. 208. (e) acts 6.3 . (f) acts 6.8 . (g) acts 8.7 . (q) neque enim omnes apostoli ad omnes gentes pariter sunt profecti ; sed quidam in asiam , quidam in scythiam , & alii in alias dispersi sunt nationes , secundum dispensationem illius quem secum habebant spiritus sancti . didym . de sp. sanct. lib. 1. (r) accepto spiritu sancto , universas mundi plagas , ductis sortibus , partiuntur . vid. clem. galan . conciliat . part . 1. cap. 1. p. 4. (s) jerem. 13.13.17.25.22.2 , 4.29.16 . (t) filios suos successores bassianum & getam . eutrop. hist . roman . brev. lib. 8. c. 19. (u) successores filios tres reliquit . lib. 10. c. 9. (w) — 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. vid. plutarch . vit. p. 890 , 895 , 896. ed. francosurt . 1599. (x) dans le fonds ce n'est encore là qu'une dispute de mots . bibliotheque universel . t. 9. p. 153. (y) plures uni non succedunt . salmas . appar . p 125. (z) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . can. 6. (a) grotius de imper. sum. pot. c. 10. sect. 2. p. 271. (b) ep. 1. p. 7. sect. 10. ed. paris . 1685. (c) vid. hieron . ad pammach . ep. 61. (d) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . phot. bibl. cod. 48. col. 37. (e) can. 2. (f) vid. pandect . canon . t. 1. p. 87 , 88. ed. oxon. (g) ep. canonic . à coteler . edit . in eccl. graec. monument . t. 3. p. 453 , 454. (h) vid. epiphan . haeres . 69. n. 1. p. 727. sozomen . h.e. l. 1. c. 15. p. 428. & hen. vales . not . in locum . (i) p. 49. (k) gal. 1.19.2.9 . (l) vir sanctitate & omnimodâ eruditione praestans . blondel . apolog. sect. 2 p. 36. (m) clem. alex. strom. l. 1. (n) clem. alex . apud euseb . h. e. l. 2. c. 1. (o) concil . const . ep. synod . apud thedoret . h. e. l. 5. c. 9. (p) really the story , as clement tells it ( if theodorus metochita and others represent him right ) carries its own confutation : for they make him say , that james , by divine appointment , was ordain'd to be the first bishop of jerusalem , to prevent any emulation and dispute , that peter , john , and the other james , might otherwise have had for that honor . p. 27. (q) vid. hegesip . apud euseb . h. e. l. 2. c. 23. & l. 4. c. 22. & apud hieron . in catalog . script . eccles . (r) scalig. animadvers . in euseb . chron. p. 178 , 179. (s) petav. animadvers . ad epiphan . haeres . 78. n. 13. vales . annot. in euseb . h. e. l. 2. c. 23. (t) vid. ludolf . comment . ad hist . aethiop . p. 342. (u) ab eodem ludolf . edit . ibid. l. 3. n. 66. (w) vid. combefis , not. in auct . t. 2. col. 843 , 844. an. 1648. (x) hippolyt de 12. apost . (y) euseb . chron. can. p. 189. ed. scalig. (z) cyril . catech. 4. & 14. (a) cyril . scythop . à caugio citat . è cod. m.s. in append. ad gloss . gr. col. 83. (b) epiphan . haeres . 66. n. 19. (c) chrys . t. 3. p. 498. (d) aug. contr . crescon . l. 2. (e) fulgent . l. de trinit . ad foelicem notar. c. 1. (f) niceph. chronograph . ed. scalig. in thes . temp. p. 311. (g) phot. ep. 117. p. ●58 . (h) oecumen . enar. in act. apost . p. 122. (i) nil . doxopat . not. patriarch . ludg. bat. ed. inter var. sacr. p. 216. (k) concil . in trullo can. 32. (l) blond . apolog. p. 50. (m) act. 12.17 . (n) galat. 1.19 . (o) hic autem jacobus episcopus hierosolymorum primus fuit , &c. hieron . in galat . 1.19 . (p) quod illi ad evangelium praedicandum toto fuerant orbe dispersi . ibid. (q) gal. 2.1.9 . (r) cujus cathedrae dignitatem etiam paulus apostolus in eo nominando venerans ait , jacobus , cephas , & johannes , &c. bed. prolog . super 7. epist . canon . nuper edit . à d. cave in hist . lit. p. 475. (s) jacobus hoc loco ponitur ante petrum & johannem propter primatum suum quem habebat in jerusalem , ubi erat episcopus . anselm . explanat . ep. paul. fol. 128. (t) p. 51. (u) quum hic quaestio sit de dignitate , mirum est jacobum petro praeferri : fortassis id factum fuit , quod jerosolymitanae ecclesiae erat praefectus . calvin . in galat. 2.9 . (w) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . chrysostom . com . 4 p 795 , 796. (x) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. phot. cod. 275. col. 1525. (y) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. commentar . rer. jacob. p. 524. edit . in combefis auctar. par . 1. a. d. 1673. (y) my sentence is , &c. act. 15.19 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . illud 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cum emphasi proferendum . vid. jo. pricaei annot. in locum . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . chrysostom . t. 4. p. 797. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . theophylact. in act. apost . p. 135. (a) surgens petrus tanquam apostolorum supremus & caput dixit [ in margine , primò loquitur ] . bin. concil . t. 1. p. 2. (b) conventum apostolorum & presbyterorum cogit , de negotio controverso relationem facit , primam sententiam dicit rem definiendo , ut s●lebat imperator in senatu . pet. de marc. opusc . p. 154. (c) vid. bin. not . ad synod . 3. apost . (d) petri auditâ sententiâ illicò obmutuit universum concilium , conquisitio cessavit . — tacuit omnis multitudo , subdit s. lucas , idque in signum manifestissimum , quod petri judicio acquiescendum duxerit omne concilium . scheistrat . antiq. illustrat . p. 138. (e) ab jacobo , id est à judaea , nam ecclesiae hierosolymitanae jacobus praefuit . august . t. 4. p. 379. edit . paris . 1614. (f) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . chrys . t. 4. p. 864. (g) matth. 13.55 . (h) triginta annos hierosolymis rexit ecclesiam . hieron . in catalog . † wheloc . in h. e. bed. l. 5. c. 7. (i) factus est jacobus episcopus . hierosolymitanus quo munere viginti octo functus est . eutych . annal. t. 1. interpret . pocock . p. 327. (k) ab. ecchel . eutych . vindic . c. 13. p. 206. (l) hierosolymis non abstitit nec quoquam extra urbem pedem movit . wal. messal . p. 20. (m) vid. cl. castell . lexic . heptaglot . col. 2869. (n) joseph . antiq. l. 20. c. 8. & apud origen . comment . in mat. p. 223. edit . huet . & lib. 1. contr. cels . p. 35. (o) a. d. 1526. jacobo — & omnibus ecclesiis quae ubique sunt . (p) euseb . chronic. (q) abulpharag . dynast . 7. (r) dodwel . dissert . cyprian . 11. sect. 20 , 21. (s) vid. anton. pagi critic . in annal. baron . a d. 107. n. 4. (t) hegesip . apud euseb . h. e. l. 4. c. 22. p. 142. & freculph . chron. t. 2. l. 2. c. 11. (u) jus divin . minist . evangel . par . 1. p. 26 , 27. (w) matth. 13.39 , 40 , 49. (x) 1 cor. 15.24 . (y) p. 51. (z) hinc manifestissimè apparet voluisse christum ut apostolis aliis , illi rursum aliis viris fidis , munus illud magisterii commendarent . nam eùm promissio haec ad consummationem seculi se extendat , apostoli autem tam diu victuri non essent , omninò hic christu● in apostolorum persona censendus est etiam successores ejus muneris compellâsse . (a) acts 14.14 . (b) 2 cor. 12.11 . (c) acts 15.39 , 40. (d) gal. 2.9 . (e) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . (f) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . acts 17.14 . (g) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . acts 16.35 . (h) mar. 6.27 . (i) luk. 20.20 . (k) john 7.32 . (l) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. theod. ● . 3. p. 473. edit . sirmond . (m) quia beatis apostolis decedentibus , illi qui post illos ordinati sunt ut praeessent ecclesiis , illis primis exaequari non poterant , neque miraculorum testimonium par ill●… habere , sed in multis aliis inferiores illis esse videbantur , grave illis videbatur , apostolorum sibi vindicare nuncupationem . diviserunt ergo nomina ipsa & presbyteris nomen presbyterii reliquerunt . alii vero episcopi sunt nominati , híque ordinationis praediti potestate , ità ut plenissimè praepositos se esse ecclesiarum cognoscerent . vid. amalar. de eccl. offic. l. 2. c. 13. (n) vid. salmas . apparat. p. 75. & alibi . (o) walo messal . c. 1. (p) apostolorum discipuli apostolicâ auctoritate pari jure ac potestate ut illi fecerant ecclesias gubernabant . ibid. c. 3. p. 244. tenebant ecclesiam eodem jure ac more quo tenuerant eos apostoli . ibid. p. 248. (q) hi locum eundem tenuere in ecclesiâ supra presbyteros , quem postea episcopi obtinuere . ibid. c. 5. p. 50. (r) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . theod. t. 3. p. 172. (s) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ibid. (t) paulatim verò tempore procedente & alii ab his , quos dominus elegerat ; ordinati sunt apostoli , sicut ille ad philippenses sermo declarat , necessarium autem existimavi , epaphroditum fratrem cooperatorem , & commilitonem meum vestrum autem apostolum , &c. mittere ad vos . hieron . in epist . ad galat. cap. 1. † 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . (u) erat eo●um apostolus ab apostolo factus . hil. sard. comment . in ep. ad philip. c. 2. v. 25. (w) vid. ejusdem comment . in 1. ep. ad corinth . c. 12. v. 28. & in ep. ad ephes . c. 4. v. 11. (x) et episcopi apostoli nominantur , sicut de epaphrodito paulus disserit , &c. pacian . ep. 1. (y) theod. t. 3. p. 323. (z) primi ecclesiarum curatores à primariis apostolis adlecti apostoli dicti sunt . hinc paulo philip. 2.25 . philippensium apostolus epaphroditus . blond . apolog. sect. 2. p. 85. vid. pl. p. 86 , 87. (a) sic philippensium apostolus à paulo vocatus est epaphroditus , ut ipse paulus appellatus est apostolus gentium , & petrus apostolus circumcisionis . wal. messal . cap. 1. p. 60. (b) haec mihi verisimilis non videtur , qui sciam , vocem 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nunquam à paulo nec ab aliis apostolis & evangelistis usurpari , insi de sancto ministerio , c. 1. p. 57. (c) dimissoriae literae dicuntur quae vulgò apostoli dicuntur . digest . lib. 50. tit. 16. l. 106. (d) gothofred . comment in cod. theodos . tom . 6. p. 230 , 231 ▪ (e) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . muneris mei vicarium . castell . (f) phil. 4.18 . (g) dicit simpliciter . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , mittere , inquam , non remittere . wal. messal . c. 2. p. 107. (h) my brother , philip. 2.35 . (i) philip. 4.3 . (k) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . (l) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . nonn . metaphras . c. 14. (m) compar , pro socio cujuscunque muneris & conditionis apud plautum , pseud . act. 5. sc. 3. v. 9. ubi servus conservum appellat comparem suum ; & vulgatus ep. ad philip. 4. v. 3. interpres 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 rectè compar germane , insinuans , collaboratorem & in eodem officio socium compellari ab apostolo : is verò epaphroditus erat , &c. reines . syntag. inscript . antiq. p. 906. (n) vid. wal. messal . c. 1. p. 58 , 59 , 60. (o) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . clem. ep. c. 44. p. 93. (p) rom. 11.13 . (q) phil. 1.1 . (r) selden . de synedr . lib. 2. c. 7. p. 212. (s) hieron . t. 9. p. 197. (t) chrys . t. 4. p. 5. (u) theod. t. 3. p. 323. (w) oecumen . comment . p. 655. (x) 1 tim. 5.22 . (y) theod. t. 3. p. 485. (z) phot. ep. 54. p. 109. (a) morin . de ordinat . par. 3. exerc. 3. c. 3. p. 44. (b) observat . ad ep. polycarp . p. 35 , 36. (c) vid. canon . apost . 38. & 41. cyprian . ep. 5. p. 10. edit . oxon. (d) vid. isocrat . nicocl . p. 38 , 40 , 44. ed. basil . 1587 (e) 1 tim. 1.3 . (f) exposition de la 1. epître à timothée , p. 40. ‡ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . (g) d'où paroît , que timothée avoit été laissé dans l'eglise d'ephese avec authorité de la gouverner & d'en censurer & deposer même les predicateurs . p. 41. (h) vid. hieronym . chronic . a. d. 357. theodoret. t. 3. p. 474. salvian . de gubernat . dei , l. 1. p. 10. & ep. 9. p. 210. ed. baluz . (i) vid. ambros . sive hilar. in 1. tim. 3.8 . epiphan . haeres . 75. n. 5. chrys . t. 4. p. 5. theophylact. in 1 tim. 4.14 . (k) vid. anonym . apud phot. cod. 254. col. 1404. euseb . h. e. l. 3. c. 4. p. 73. pallad . dialog . de vit . chrysostom . p. 114. ed. bigot . oecumen . ili 1 tim. 1.3 . † edit . 1661. (l) ep. ded. p. 28. (m) ibid. p. 24. (n) ep. ded. p. 2. (o) ibid. (p) ibid. p. 13 , 14 , 5 , &c. (q) ibid. p. 13. (r) unbishop . p. 6. (s) p. 5. (t) p. 25. (u) p. 2. (w) p. 6. (x) unbishop . p. 2. (y) jus divin . minist . angl. par . 2. p. 68. (z) sm●c . p. 48. (a) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . dan. 8.27 . (b) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. numb . 8.19 . (c) he worketh the work of the lord , as i also do , 1 cor. 16.10 . (d) vid. euseb . h. e. l. 3. c. 37. p. 109. edit . vales . (e) see acts 19.8 , 9 , 10. & 20.31 . qua est ephesi ecclesiae à paulo quidem fundata . iren. a●vers . haeres . l. 3. c. 3. p. 234. † p. 45. (f) acts 8. (g) see the history of ethiopia , by ludolphus . b. 3. c. 2. (h) ibid. c. 7. (i) clem. ep. p. 42. (k) p. 26. (l) p. 2. (m) p. 26. (n) rom. 12.1 . (o) 1 cor. 1.10 . (p) 1 thess . 2.11 , 12. (q) phil. 4.2 . (r) p. 26. (s) 1 tim. 3.14 , 15. (t) theoph. in loc . citat . (u) theod. in loc . dict . (w) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . theodoret. t. 3. p. 477. (x) 1 tim. 4.13 . (y) see dr. lightfoot 's harmony of the n. t. an. 59. (z) 1 tim. 1.19.20 . 2 tim. 2.17 . & 4 , 14. (a) 2 tim. 4.19 . (b) p. 26. (c) acts. 6. (d) acts 8.5 . (e) c. 21.8 . (f) casaub . excercit . 14. ad annal. baron . n. 4. (g) alsted . supplem . l. 4. c. 1. (h) 1 tim. 1.3 . (i) see acts 16.9 , 10. (k) acts 19.22 . (l) see 2 cor. 7.5 . & 8.1 . & 9.2 . & 1.1 . (m) see acts 20.3 , 4 , 5. (n) opp. posthum . chronolog . dissert . 1. c. 9. sect. 5. (o) vid. annal paulin. p. 12 , 13 , 15 , 20. (p) timothei autoritas major suit quam ut 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ejus officium dici possit . camer . 1. tim. 4.14 . (q) primatus ille non fuit annuus , vel menstruus , aut hebdomarius , ac per vices sed perpetuus , sive uti loquuntur ad vitam , &c. thes . salmur . par . 3. p 322. (r) see acts 20.28 . (s) sophron. in catalog . (t) phot. cod. 254. (u) ignat. ep. ad ephis . p. 17 , 18. (w) vid. euseb . h. e. l. 5. c. 22 . & 24. (x) rom. 16.21 . 1 cor. 16 . 1●… . 1 thess . 3.2 . 2 cor. 2.13 . & 8.23 . (y) p. 46. (z) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . (a) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. matth. 24.45 . (b) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. acts 7.10 . (c) tit. 2.15 . (d) cum omni imperio : id est , cum auctoritate summâ non simpliciter monendi , vel exhortandi , vel suadendi , sed praecipiendi , tanquam dei legatus . bez. in locum . (e) digest . l. 1. tit. 19. l. 19. (f) see 1 tim. 1.3 . titus 1.11 . rev. 2.14 , 15 , 16.20 . 1 tim. 5.20 . (g) tit. 3.10 . (h) p. 45. (i) vid. theod. c. 3. p. 986 , 987. (k) vid. sozomen . h. e. l. 6. c. 21. & l. 7. c. 19. (l) hi qui ordinationis nunc habent potestatem ( qui nunc nominantur episcopi ) non unius ecclesiae creabantur episcopi , sed provincias integras eo tempore regebant , apostolorum nomine nuncupati . rab. maur. in 1 tim. 4.14 . (m) act. 21 ▪ 8. (n) see act. 8. (o) vid. pearson . ubi supra , p. 77 , 78 , 79. (p) creta titum sibi sumpsit , paulin. poem . 27. p. 169. (q) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . sophron. in catalog . script . eccles . (r) jus divin . minist . evang. par . 2. p. 75. (s) epiphan . haeres . 51. n. 32. (t) argument before their annot. on the revelations . (u) p. 48. (w) c. 4. p. 184. (x) vid. usser . armachan . dissert . praefix . polycarp . & ignat. epist . c. 18. (y) grot. de imp. sum. potest . c. 11. sect. 6. p. 343. (z) gen. 30 (a) rev. 2.10 , 24. (b) vid. bez. annot. in apoc. 2.1 . (c) vid. octav. falconer . inscript . athlet . p. 39.40 . ez. spanhem . de praestant . numism . p. 696 , 697 , 698. henrici noris cenotaph . pisan . dissert . 1. p. 72 , 73. johan . harduin . num. antiq. illustrat . p. 84.400 , 401. (d) bez. in apocal. 2.1 . (e) hebdomadicam hanc 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fuisse probahile est . bez. vid. sarav . de divers . minist . grad . p. 338. (f) p. 124. (g) p. 128. (h) p. 133. (i) levit. 5.4 , 5 , 6. (k) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sym● . ach . (l) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . lxx . (m) joseph . ant. jud. l. 3. c. 8. (n) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . diod. sic. apud phot. cod. 244. col. 1153. (o) p. 48. (p) areth. in apoc. 1.20 . p. 661 , 662. (q) iis ( scilicet presbytericrum praepositis ) ceu 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 commissi gregis tam 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quam pudenda ex aequo imputari potuere , & à domino ipso ecclesiarum asiaticarum angelos calestibus monitis ad fidei constantiam armante imputata sunt . blond . apolog. prae●at . p. 6. (r) clem. alex. de div. salv. p. 110. (ſ) smyrnam vocat hanc urb●●… auctor chronici alexandrini , annotante valesio . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . supra omnis constitutus . interpret . wal. messal . p. 229. (t) p. 3. (u) epiphan . haeres . 75. n. 5. (w) vid. grot. annot. in matth. 9.18 . (x) acts 19.31 . (y) vid. spanhem . de praest . numism . p. 693 , 694. (z) harduin . num. antiq. illustrat . p. 423. a bevereg . ●od . can. vind. ● . 2. c. 11. p. 316. (b) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . clem. r. c. 32. (c) vid. dodwel . dissert . cypr. 10. sect. 9 , 10. (d) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. c. 44. (e) apud euseb . h. e. l. 4. c. 22. (f) tertul. de praescript . haeret . c. 36. (g) clem. alex. strom. l. 4. p. 516. (g) mabillon . de re diplom . l. 5. p. 357. (i) iren. adv . haeres . l. 3. c. 3. p. 232. (k) tertul. de praescript . haeret . c. 32. p. 213. (l) origen . comment . ed. huet . vol. 2. p. 430. (m) euseb . h. e. l. 3. c. 3. (n) epiphan . haeres . 27. n. 6. (o) optat. adv . parmen . l. 2. p. 36. † hieron . catalog . in clemente . (p) augustin . ad fortunat. ep. 165. (q) vid. euseb . h. e. l. 4. c. 22 , 23. l. 5. c. 24. (r) in singulis ecclesiis bini sunt episcopi , alius visibilis , alius invisibilis . orig. in luc. 2. hom : 13. (s) salutat vos narcissus qui ante me hic tenuit episcopalem locum & nunc mecum eundem orationibus regit annos natus circiter centum sedecim . alexand. apud hieron . in cat. script . eccles . (t) euseb . h. e. l. 6. c. 11. (u) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ignat. ep. ad philadelph . p. 41. (w) vid. cypr. ep. 46. & ep. 55. p. 104. (x) corn. apud euseb . h. e. l. 6. c. 43. (y) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . can. 8. (z) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . haeres . 68. n. 6. (a) nec enim ignoramus unum deum esse , unum christum esse dominum , quem confessi sumus , unum spiritum sanctum , unum episcopum in catholicâ ecclesiâ esse debere . vid. cornel. ep. ad cyprian . inter epp. cypr. n. 49. p. 93. (b) haec praelatio unius in civitate alexandrinâ primum nata fuisse videatur ; ex qua urbe etiam monastica vita & variae ecclesiae pestes ortae sunt . dan. in aug. de haeres . c. 53. (c) ps . 45.16 . (d) aug ● . 9. p. 169. (e) apud nos apostolorum locum episcopi tenent . apud ●os episcopus ●ertius est . habent enim de pepusa phrygia patriarchar . hieron . ● . 2. p. 88. ep. 52. (f) potentia divitiarum & paupertatis humilitas vel sublimiorem vel inferiorem episcopum facit ( ità enim lego sine negatione , ex fide cod. m.s. ) caeterùm omnes apostolorum successores sunt t. 2. ep. 85. (g) potestas peccatorum remittendorum apostolis data est & episcopis , qui eis ordinatione vicariâ successerunt . firmil . ep. ad cypr. inter epp. cypr. n. 75 , p. 225. (h) laboramus & laborare debemus , ut unitatem à domino , & per apostolos nobis successoribus tràditum , quantum possumus , obtinere curemus . cyp. ep. 45. (i) quibus ( i. e. apostolis ) nos successimus . vid. concil . carthag . de baptizand . haeret. inter opp. cyp. p. 242. (k) habemus annumerare eos qui ab apostolis instituti sunt episcopi in ecclesiis & successores eorum usque ad nos , qui nihil tale docuerunt quale ab his deliratur ; etenim si recondita mysteria scissent apostoli , quae scorsim & latenter ab reliquis perfectos dotibant , his vel maximè traderent ea quibus etiam ipsas ecclesias committebant . valdè enim perfectos & irreprehensibiles in omnibus eos volebant esse quos & successores relinquebant , suum ipsorum loc●m magisterii tradentes . iren. adv . haeres . l. 3. c. 3. p. 232. (l) vid. dodwel . in iren. dissert . 1. (m) iren. adv . haeres . l. 2. c. 39. (n) critic . in annal. baron . a. d. 32. n. 5. (o) joh. 8.57 . (p) sueton , in vit . domit. c. 4. & in vit . aug. c. 2. (q) ammian . marcel . l. 26. p. 455. (r) sulp. sever. dialog . pag. 162. (ſ) apul. asin . aur. lib. 1. p. 161. (t) casaubon . not. ad jul. capitol . m. anton. philos . c. 4. p. 157. (t) vid. euseb . h.e. l. 3. c. 11. (u) vit. ver. c. 3 , 4. p. 225. vid. not . salmas . ad loc . (†) ay , every priest this way is a successor of that apostle , from whom by tradition he received priesthood . let. 2. p. 21. paul. golomes . observat . sacr. p. 42. ed. 1688. (w) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . phot. cp . 54. p. 108. (x) manifesta est sententia domini nostri jesu christi , apostolos suos mittentis , & ipsis solis potestatem à patre sibi datam permittentis , quibus nos successimus eadem potestate ecclesiam gubernantes . clar. ubi suprà . (y) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . basil . ad ambros . episcopum . ep. 55. p. 830. (z) ipse adhuc cathedrae apostolorum suis locis praesident . tert. de praescript . c. 36. p. 215. (a) quadratus vocatur apostolus in men. gr. septemb. 2● . item meletius antioch . episcop . à greg. nyssen . t. 2. p. 1019. & plura istiusmodi occurunt exempla in scriptis veterum . (b) vid. bignon . ad marculf . formul . l. 1. c. 2. (c) vid. alcim . avit . ep. 18.23.27.37 . vid. savar . comment . in sidon . apoll. lib. 6. ep. 4. p. 388. (d) vid. not. ad paulin. ep. 3. p. 10. ed. paris . 1685. (e) de re diplom . l. 2. c. 2. p. 64. (f) unus in ecclesiâ ad tempus sacerdos & ad tempus judex vice christi . ep. 59. p. 129. (g) neque enim quisquam nostrum episcopum se episcoporum constituit , aut tyrannico terrore ad obsequendi necessitatem collegas suos adigit , vid. cypr. tr. p. 229. (h) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p. 43. ed. lond. 1680. (i) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . p. ●1 . (k) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. p. 6. (l) chrys . t. 5. p. 499. (m) vid. chronic. oriental . p. 53. & abulpharag . dynast . 7. (n) — 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ep. ad philad . p. 43. (o) vid. praest . vir. ep. eccl. p. 825. ed. amstel . 1684 (p) vid. is . voss . ep. ignat. praefix . (q) honorabant sanctum per episcopos , presbyteros & diaconos . s. ign. martyr . ed. usser . p. 5. (r) devoti sunt serapi qui se christi episcopos dicunt . nemo illic archisynagogus judaeorum , nemo samarites , nemo christianorum presbyter , non mathematicus , &c. fl. vop . inter hist . aug. scr. p. 959 , 960. (ſ) comment . in hist . aethiop . lib. 3. p. 445. (t) comment . 1● . cod. tutodes . th. 8. p. 230. (u) suid. in voce 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . (w) socrat. l. 5. c. 17. (*) hist . eccl. l. 5. c. 6. (x) vid. euseb . ibid. (y) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , clem. alex. strom. l. 6. p. 667. (z) paedag. l. 3. c. 12. p. 264. (a) dandi quidem jus habet summus sacerdos , qui est episcopus : debinc presbyteri & diaconi : non tamen sine episcopi auctoritate , propter ecclesiae honorem , quo falvo , falva pax est . tert. de bapt. p. 230. ed. par. 1675. (b) cùm ea majoribus competant , ne sibi adsumant dicatum episcopis officium episcopatus . de bapt. c. 17. p. 231. (c) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. orig. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . oxon. nuper edit . p. 103. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . origen . in jerem. homil. 40. p. 114. (d) — 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . comment . p. 395. (e) apolog. p. 3. (f) wal. mess . p. 7. (g) edant origines ecclesiarum suarum : evolvánt ordinem episcoporum suorum ità per successiones ab initio decurrentem , ut primus ille episcopus aliquem ex apostolis vel apostolicis viris , qui tamen cum apostolis perseveraverit , habuerit auctorem & antecessorem . hoc enim modo ecclesiae apostolicae census suos deferunt . tert. de praescript . c. 31. p. 213. (h) selden . de success . in pontificat . l. 1. c. 5. & alibi . (i) final answer , &c. see his works , p. 641. (k) neque hae quae in germaniâ fundatae sunt ecclesiae aliter credunt aut aliter tradunt : neque hae quae in hiberis sunt , neque hae quae in celtis , neque hae quae in oriente , neque hae quae in aegypto , neque hae quae in libya , neque hae quae in medio mundo sunt constitutae . sed sicut sol creatura dei in universo mundo unus & idem est , sic & lumen , praedicatio veritatis , ubique lucet , &c. adv. haeres . l. 1. c. 3. p. 53. (l) sed quoniam valdé longum est , in hoc tali volumine omnium ecclesiarum enumerare successiones , &c. l. 3. c. 3. p. 232. (m) jampridem per omnes provincias & per urbes singulas ordinati sunt episcopi . cypr. ep 55. p. 112. (n) considerator consider'd , c. 9. p. 194. (o) meminisse autem diaconi debent quoniam apostolos , id est , episcopos & praepositos dominus elegit : diaconos autem post ascensum domini in coelos apostoli sibi constituerunt , episcopatus sui & ecclesiae ministros . (p) 1 pet. 5.1 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . (q) basil . t. 2. p. 789.1059 , 1098. ed. paris . 1618. (r) blond . apolog . p. 62. (s) mabillon . de re diplom . l. 2. c. 2. sect . 16. (t) cypr. ep. 16. p. 36. (u) ep. 14. p. 33. (w) vid. ep. ad stephan . p. 198. (x) vix plebi persuadeo imò extorqueo , ut tales patiantur admitti , & justior factus est fraternitatis dolor ex eo quod unus atque alius obtinente plebe & contradicente , mea tamen facilitate suscepti pejores extiterunt quàm prius fuerant . ep. 59. p. 137 , 138. (y) ep. 40. p. 78 , 79. (z) ep. 39. p. 76 , 77 , 78. (a) ep. 34. p. 68. (b) ep. 66. p. 166 , 167. (c) inde enim schismata & haereses obortae sunt & oriuntur , dum episcopus qui unus est & ecclesiae praeest quorundam praesumptione contemnitur . ibid. (d) is . 30.1 . fecistis conventionem . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . lxx . ed. complut . (e) post episcopum tamen diaconatûs ordinationem subjecit . quare , nisi quia episcopi & presbyteri una ordinatio est . comment . in 1 tim. 3. uterque enim sacerdos est . (f) sed episcopus primus est , ut omnis episcopus presbyter sit ; non tamen omnis presbyter episcopus . ibid. (g) comment . in ephes . 4.11 . )g) jacobum vidit hierosolymae quià illic erat constitutus ab apostolis episcopus . com. in gal. 1.19 . caput in ecclesiâ apostolos posuit , &c. ipsi sunt episcopi . com. in 1 cor. 12.28 . hunc jam creatum episcopum instruit per epistolam . praefat. in ep. 1. ad tim. titum apostolus consecravit episcopum . praefat. in ep. ad tit. angelos episcopos dicit sicut docetur in apocalypsi johannis . com. in 1 cor. 11.10 . in episcopo omnes ordines sunt , quià primus sacerdos est , hoc est princeps est sacerdotum , &c. com. in ephes . 4.11 . (i) idem est presbyter qui episcopus , & antequàm diaboli instinctu studia in religione fierent , & diceretur in populis , ego sum pauli , ego apollo , ego autem cephae , communi presbyterorum consilio ecclesiae gubernabantur . postquàm verò unusquisque eos quos baptizaverat , suos putabat esse , non christi , in toto orbe decretum est , ut unus de presbyteris electus superponeretur caeteris , ad quem omnis ecclesiae cura pertineret & schismatum semina tollerentur . hicrom . ln tit. 1. (k) blond . apolog. p. 3. (l) 1 cor. 1.12 . (m) ecclesiae salus in summi sacerdotis dignitate pendet : cui si non exors quaedam & ab omnibus eminens detur potestas , tot in ecclesiis efficientur schismata , quot sacerdotes . hieron . t. 2. p. 96. (n) episcopi noverint se magis consuetudine quam dispositionis dominicae veritate presbyteris esse majores . comment . in tit. 1. (o) ubi suprà . (p) ut sciamus traditiones apostolicas sumptas de veteri testamento , quod aaron & filii ejus atquae levitae in templo fuerunt , hoc sibi episcopi & presbyteri & diaconi vendicent in ecclesia . ep. ad evagrium in sine . (q) quanquàm secundum honorum vocabula quae jam ecclesiae usus obtinuit episcopatus presbyterio major sit . &c. aug. ep. 19. (r) consuetudinem cum dicunt patres , non excludunt apostolicam institutionem , imò ut augustinus ait , quod universa tenet ecclesia , nec conciliis institutum , sed semper retentum est , non nisi apostólicâ auctoritate traditum rectissimè creditur . grot. de imper. sum. pot. c. 11. §. 10. p. 355. (ſ) divinâ voce laudatur sub angeli nomine praepositus ecclesiae . aug. ep. 162. (t) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. t. 4. p. 289. (u) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. ibid. (w) haeres . 75. n. 1 , 4. (x) n. 3 , 4. (y) n. 5. (z) 1 tim. 5.1 . (a) ca●●… . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a. d. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . (b) haec ( hibernia scilicet ) propriè patria scottorum est . bed. h. e. l. 1. c. 1. p. 29. ed. chifflet . (c) — totam cùm scotus iernen movit & infesto spumavit remige tethys . claudian . in 1. consul . scilich . l. 2. carm. 22. v. 251 , 252. (d) historical account of church-government , &c. c. 2. (e) antiquity of the british churches . c. 2. pref. p. 65. &c. (e) polyd. verg. de rer. invent. l. 7. c. 1. (f) vid. dan. opera . p. 483 , 484 , 485. (g) — asserunt antonium hujus propositi fuisse caput : quod ex parte verum est . amathas verò & macarius discipuli antonii , etiam nunc affirmant : paulum quendam thebaeum principem istius rei fuisse , quod non tam nomine , quàm opinione nos quoque comprobamus . hieron . ep. 50. p. 154. edit . francofurt . a. d. 1684. (h) quousque genus detestabile monachorum non urbe pellitur ? ep. 25. p. 104. (i) coepere nostri eò tempori● christi dogma accuratissimè amplexari , monachorum quorundam ductu , &c. h. boeth . scot. hist . l. 6. fol. 92. vid. blondel . apolog. sect. 3. p. 315. (k) vid. blondel ubi suprà . (l) see the bishop of s. asaph . hist . ac. &c. c. 7. (m) ibid. † p. 19. (n) vid. ludolf comment . ad hist . aethiop . l. 3. c. 6. n. 49. (n) vid. ludolf comment . ad hist . aethiop . l. 3. c. 6. n. 49. (o) 1 cor. 9.13 , 14. vid. hieron . (p) ep. ad evagr. in fine . (*) p. 7. † p. 8. (*) p. 7. (q) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . c. 44. (r) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . c. 6. (ſ) — 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . c. 3. (t) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . hesych . (*) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . (u) vid. justin . apolog. 2. p. 161. grot. de imp. sum. pot. c. 11. §. 7. (w) lib. de div. salv. p. 110. ed. oxon. (x) adv. haeres . lib. 3. c. 3. (y) quod si falsa , ut dicitis , historia illa rerum est , unde tam brevi tempore tótus mundus ista religione completus est ? aut in unam coire qui potuerunt mentem gentes regionibus dissitae , ventis , coeli convexionibusque dimotae ●… arnob. advers . gent. l. 1. p. 33. (z) chillingw . apost . institut . of episc . sect. 11. * p. 27. † p. 49. (a) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . (b) euseb . h.e. l. 4. c. 23. (c) vid. hieron . catalog . script . eccl. in quadrato . (d) reply to the answer of the divines at newport , amongst the works of k. c. p. 619. * p. 49. (e) percurre ecclesias apostolicas , apud quas ipsae adhuc cathedrae apostolorum suis locis praesident , apud quas ipsae authenticae literae corum recitantur . tert. de praescript . c. 36. p. 215. p. 49. † p. 49. (f) jo. twin . comment . de reb. albion , &c. l. 1. p. 13. (e) camd. brit. p. 6 , 7. (h) polycrat . apud hieron . in catalog . script . eccl. in polycrate . (i) tertul. de prascript . c 32. p. 213. (k) euseb . h. e. l. 3. c. 36 , p. 106. (l) hieron . ● . 2. p. 177. (m) socrat. h. e. l. 5. c. ●2 . p. 284. (n) soz. h. e. l. 7. c. 19. p. 734. (o) vict. cap. è cod. m. s. à feuardent . citat . in annot. ad iren. p. 240. (p) suid. t. 2. p. 560. (q) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . smyrn . eccles . ep. ed. usser . p. 26. (r) certè ego nihil unquam in historiâ ecclesiastica vidi , à cujus lectione commotior recedam , ut non amplius meus esse videar . aulmadvers . in euseb . chron. p. 202. (s) iren. advers . haeres . l. 3. c. 3. p. 33. (t) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ep. ad magnes . p. 38. (u) applicans [ ignatius ] post multum laborem smyrnaeorum civitati , cum multo gaudio descendens de navi , sestinabat s. polycarpum , episcopum coadjutorem videre ; fuerant enim quondam discipuli johannis . martyr . s. ignat. p. 5. ed. usser . (w) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . (x) smyrnaeorum ecclesia polycarpum à joanne collecatum resert . tertul. de praescript . h●res . c. 32. (y) polycarpus joannis apostoli discipulus ab eo smyrnae episcop●…s ordinatus , &c. hieron . catalog . in polycarpo . (z) polycarpus autem non solum ab apostolis edoctus , & conversatus cum multis ex eis qui dominum nostrum viderunt : sed etiam ab apostolis in asia , in eâ quae est smyrnis ecclesia constitutus episcopus , &c. iren. adv . haeres . l. 3. c. 3. p. 233. (a) vid. iren. ibid. & ●…p . ad florin . apud euseb . h. e. l. 5. c. 20. (b) cornel. muss . in ep. ad rom. c. 14. (c) vid. gittich . ep. ad ruar . ad calcem . epp. ruar . cent. 1. p. 469 , &c. (e) legantur ea qua hac de re eusebius scribit pluribus in locis historia ecclesiastica & invenietur usque ad illius eusebii aetatem — nunquam fuisse in ecclesia qui dubitaret quin quatuor quae habemus evangella , liber actorum apostolorum , &c. ab iis scripta fuissent quibus attribuuntur . socin . lib. de auct . s. script . apud usser . in lib. de succes . eccles . c. 3. master geree's case of conscience sifted wherein is enquired, vvhether the king (considering his oath at coronation to protect the clergy and their priviledges) can with a safe conscience consent to the abrogation of episcopacy. by edward boughen. d.d. mr. gerees case of conscience sifted. boughen, edward, 1587?-1660? 1650 approx. 459 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 81 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2008-09 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a28864 wing b3814 estc r216288 99828026 99828026 32453 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a28864) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 32453) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 1944:2) master geree's case of conscience sifted wherein is enquired, vvhether the king (considering his oath at coronation to protect the clergy and their priviledges) can with a safe conscience consent to the abrogation of episcopacy. by edward boughen. d.d. mr. gerees case of conscience sifted. boughen, edward, 1587?-1660? [8], 71, 70-141, [1] p. [s.n.], london : printed in the yeare, 1650. an edition of: boughen, edward. mr. gerees case of conscience sifted. a reply to: geree, john. a case of conscience resolved. text is continuous despite pagination. reproduction of the original in the congretional library, london. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng geree, john, 1601?-1649. -case of conscience resolved -controversial literature -early works to 1800. church of england -government -early works to 1800. solemn league and covenant (1643). -early works to 1800. episcopacy -early works to 1800. divine right of kings -early works to 1800. church polity -early works to 1800. 2006-06 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2006-06 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2007-06 ali jakobson sampled and proofread 2007-06 ali jakobson text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion master geree's case of conscience sifted . wherein is enquired , vvhether the king ( considering his oath at coronation to protect the clergy and their priviledges ) can with a safe conscience consent to the abrogation of episcopacy . aug . de trin. l. 4. c. 6. contra rationem nemo sobrius , contra scripturas nemo christianus , contra ecclesiam nemo pacificus senserit . cypr. ep. 27 dominus noster , cujus praecepta metuere , & observare debemus , episcopi honorem , & ecclesiae suae rationem disposuit . dr. corn . burges . fire of the sanctuary . p. 68. men now count it an high piece of zeal to direct their directors ; and like clock-makers to take the church all in pieces at their pleasure . by edward boughen , d. d. london . printed in the yeare , 1650. to the most excellent and pious prince , charles , king of england , scotland , france , and ireland , defender of the faith , and guardian of the church . sir , it may seem strange to some ; but , my hope is not to your majesty , that i make this dedication , at this time , to your sacred person . the matter of this treatise is in your behalf ; it justifies your solemn oath at coronation , the just necessitie of this oath ; as also your crown and dignity , and the goodliest floure in that crown , supremacy . to whose hands then should i chiefly present it , but to yours ? the times affright me not from my faith , and duty . i remember well , that during the ecclipse of heaven and the king of heaven , there was one , that durst acknowledge our saviours kingdom ; and in the full assurance of his title , preferr'd his petition to him as a king. and shall i be ashamed to do the like ? i know , you are my onely soveraign here on earth . i know , you represent my saviour in his kingly office ▪ though your crown be wreathed with thorns . with all humility therefore i present this acknowledgement of my most loyall affections , which are due to your sacred majestie , from your poore , but most faithfull subject , edward boughen . to the intelligent reader . i was intreated by a very good friend to take mr. gerees case of conscience into consideration , and to bestow some pains in disclosing the weaknesse and foulnesse of his arguing . truly i was willing to undeceive my seduced countreymen , and yee ded to his request . the treatise i finde to be small , but dangerous . it aims at the ruine both of church and kingdom . it perswades the king , that his oath as coronation is a wicked oath , and that he ought to break it . and then wo be to his soul , and the kingdoms safety . yea he affirms it to be a vinculum iniquitatis , the bond of iniquitie . thus he hath knit up out most gracious soveraign , with all his religious predecessors , in the bundle of iniquity no sooner read i this , but b my heart was hot within me ; and while i was musing upon this , and the like blasphemies ▪ the fi●e was kindled within me , and at the last i spake with my tongue . c why should this shimei blaspheme my lord the king ? and d slander the footsteps of those anointed of the lord , that have so long slept in peace ? e because he hath done this wickednesse , the lord shall return it upon his owne pa●e and king charles shall eblessed ; and his throne shall be established before the lord for ever . consult i pray you , with dr. cornelius burges a feirce assembly man , and of great authority among them ; and he will tell you , that f god is tender not onely of the safety , but also of the honour of his anointed . in so much , that g he hath made a law to all , not to revile the gods , nor curse the ruler of the people . which law ( saith he ) not onely proh●biteth imprecations , and seditious railings which are an hellish impiety , though it be but in word onely , ●e the prince never so impious ) but even all rude , bitter , and unseemly speeches . and mr. nathaniel ward in his sermon upon ezech. 19. 14. preached before the commons , june 30. 1647. affirmes h that besides the male administrations of government by magistrates themselves , there is no readier way to prosti●ute it , then to suffer vile men to blaspheme and spit in the face of authority . all this master geree hath done most undeservedly . if then i shall cleare the kings oath from these foule imputations , i shall prove mr. geree to be involved i in the bond of iniquity . and he that is so , k his heart is not right in the sight of god , l he is in the very gall of bitternesse just in simon magus case . i shall therefore take up s. peters words , and advise him , to m repent of this his wickednesse , & to pray god , if perhaps the thought of his heart may be forgiven him . if you conceiv●● i have ventered upon some questions , not so fit to be handled ▪ & without my profession , i beseech you take notice , that this minister hath led me into these undesired , and unpleasant pathes . he that undertakes to answer a book , is bound to confute all , but what he approves . silence in such passages , speaks consent . good reader , let true reason , scripture , and authority guide thee , and then thou shalt be sure to judge impartially . take notice , that j g. stands for mr. john gerees case of conscience . i d. for jus divinum regiminis ecclesiastici . sir robert cotton ; for his treatise , that the soveraignes person is required in the great councels , or assemblies of the state. his majesties oath published by himself in an answer to the lords and commons in parliament . 26. may. 1642. sir , will you grant and keep , and by your oath confirm to the people of england , the laws and customs to them granted by the kings of england , you lawfull and religious predecessors ; and namely the laws , and customs , and franchises granted to the clergie by the glorious king s. edward , your predecessor , according to the laws of god , the true profession of the gospel established in this kingdom , and agreeable to the prerogative of the kings thereof , and the ancient customs of this realme ? rex . i grant and promise to keep them . episcopus . sir , will you keep peace and godly agreement entirely ( according to your power ) both to god and the holy church , the clergie and the people ? rex . i will keep it . episcopus . sir , will you ( to your power ) cause law , justice , and discretion in mercie , and truth to be executed in all your judgments ? rex . i will ▪ episcopus . will you grant to hold and keep the laws and rightfull customs , which the commonaltie of this your kingdom have , and will you defend and uphold them , to the honour of god , so much as in you lieth ? rex . i grant and promise so to do . then one of the bishops reads this admonition to the king , before the people , with a loud voice . our lord and king , we beseech you to pardon & grant , and to preserve unto us , and to the churches committed to our charge , all canonicall priviledges , and due law and justice : and that you would protect and defend us , as every good king ought to be a protector and defender of the bishops and churches under his government . rex . with a willing and devout heart i promise and grant my part , and that i will preserve and maintain to you and the churches committed to your charge ▪ all canonicall priviledges ▪ and due law and justice : and that i will be your protector and defender , to my power , by the assistance of god , as every good king in his kingdome by right ought to protect and defend the bishops and churches under his government . then the king ariseth , and is led to the communion table where he makes a solemne oath , in sight of all the ●●op●e , to observe the premises , and laying his hand on the booke saith , the oath . the things , that i have before promised , i shall perform and keep , so p 〈…〉 me god , and the contents of this book . the contents . chap. i. vvhether the king may lawfully consent to the abrogation of episcopacy . 1. chap. ii. whether the kings oath taken at his coronation , be an unlawfull oath . 4. chap. iii. whether prelacy in the church of england were an usurpation . 9. chap. iv. whether the king may consent to the abrogation of episcopacy , if so that calling be lawfull . 18. chap. v. whether ye have not bound your selves by your solemne league and covenant to maintaine episcopacy . 22. chap. vi. whether the king , without impeachment to his oath at coronation , may consent to the abrogation of episcopacy . 31 chap. vii . whether the king may desert episcopacy without perjury . 37. chap. viii . whether the kings oath to the clergie be injurious to his other subjects , and inconsistent with his oath to the people . 41. chap. ix . how far forth , and wherein the clergie is subject to a parliament , and to what parliament . 52 chap. x. whether it be lawfull for the king to abrogate the rights of the clergie . 60. chap. xi . whether the clergie and laity be two distinct bodies , or one body politicke . that church-men in all ages had some singular priviledges allowed them . 69. chap. xii . whether to sit and vote in parliament be incongruous to the calling of bishops . 78. chap. xiii . certaine light and scandalous speeches concerning prince & preist , tenderly touched . 87. chap. xiv . whether the lands of the church may be forfeited by the misdemeanour of the clergie . 93. chap. xv. whether it be lawfull to take away the bishops lands , and to confer them upon the presbytery . 104. chap. xvi . how far forth the king ought to protect the church & bishops . 114 chap. xvii . whether there be two supremacies in this kingdome . 127 mr. gerees case of conscience sifted . chap. i. whether the king may lawfully consent to the abrogation of episcopacy . 1. i find a case of conscience proposed by mr. geree , and this it is ; a whether the king ( considering his o that coronation , to protect the clergie and their priviledges ) can salvâ conscientiâ consent to the abrogation of episcopacy ? but why ( i pray you ) is the question proposed here , when you have determined it before ? for doth not your title page speak thus ? in this case of conscience it is cleared , that the king may , without impeachment to his oath , touching the clergie at coronation , consent to the abrogation of episcopacy . thus you have full magisterially determined , before the question be so much as proposed . is this the fashion , first to resolve , and then to argue the case ? this may be the course of hereticks ; it is otherwise with good catholicks . but you are resolved to maintain , that a christian may swear and forswear , without the least prejudice to his soul . 2. and your practice is accordingly ; witnesse the oaths of allegiance and supremacy ; which you with your great masters have taken more then once . and those of your perswasion have taken up arms against their soveraign lord , without impeachment to their oath of allegiance ; and maintain that b the parliament is subordinate to no power under heaven , without any breach of the oath of supremacie . and your self , like a good preacher of gods word , have taken the oath of canonicall obedience to the bishop ; and yet endeavour the abrogation of episcopacy , and the extirpation of that order , from whence you had your orders , and without which you could have had no orders . 3. me thinks , the smectymnuans should not endure this proposition , since with them a bishop and a presbyter are one and the same . thus , while you endeavour to ruinate episcopacy , you subvert the presbytery , according to their tenets . i wonder much , how your case hath passed so long unsifted , and uncensured by the divine masters of your learned assembly . 4. but i shall take it for your best advantage , as it is distinguished , or ( as we say ) a distinct order from presbytery . i shall also take into consideration , the severall motives , which you produce for the abrogation of episcopacy . 5. whereof your first is this ; that c there is no hope of the kings or kingdoms safetie , without an union between our king and parliament . i must confesse with anguish of spirit , as matters have been handled , the king and kingdom are driven into a great streight ; and an vnion between our king and your parliament hath been prayed for , and sought for by all commendable , or tolerable means . the hope left us is onely in our god and saviour , whose custome it is to d scatter the proud in the imagination of their hearts ; to pull down the mighty from their throne , and to exalt the humble and meek . thus can he e shew strength with his arm , and do great things for us . and this , i hope , in his due time he will do , and reduce this kingdom from irreligion and sacriledge ; and not cast off the innocent with the prophane blasphemers . oh , that we might begge that blessing from heaven , to see a parliament rightly regulated , religiously minded , and with-out any by ends of their own : f men of courage , fearing god , men dealing truly , hating covetousnesse . such , as will not be g led by a multitude to do evil , or to subvert the truth . i am certain , we should then have an union , a blessed vnion between king and parliament . 6. but by you it seems , that h there is now no probable or possible means of reconciliation left , in mans judgement , unlesse the king yeeld to the extirpation of episcopacy . you should have added , unlesse he lay down his lands , royalties , and just prerogatives at his subjects feet : unlesse he abandon the wife of his bosome , and become a stranger to the children of his loins : unlesse he sacrifice his friends to the malice of his foes , and the ruine of whole families to their avarice : unlesse he cast off the service of god , that most excellent form of common prayer , and give up the houses and lands of god , and all that is accounted holy , to satiate their sacrilegious appetite . 7. but , in sober sadnesse , do you beleeve that the abrogation of episcopacy is that , they yawn at ? you are mistaken , good brother , the episcopall houses and lands , as also what ever belongs to deans and chapters , to archdeacons and prebendaries , are the things they hunger and thirst after ; they will wipe your mouthes of all such morsels : as their ordinances for the sale of such lands have fully manifested . 8. and wheras you seem to be much troubled for his majesty , lest i he should condescend renitente conscientia , against conscience , to gratifie you in this kind , and to bring sin upon himself . which you perceive , and in a manner confesse , he must do , if he do , as you would have him : for you say , it would be sinfull to himself . thus you endeavour to perswade our soveraign into sin , upon pretence to sin : how you can salve it , we shall see hereafter . in the mean space i must tell you , that you trouble your self for the king , blessed be god , without cause ; for we cannot perceive , that he is inclinable to gratifie you in this kinde . neither doth every reluctance of conscience make a grant sinfull ; but onely when my conscience checks me upon just grounds . it is not the renitence , or strugling , of conscience , but the pulling down of gods ordinance , episcopacy , that makes the sin ; though , i confesse , the sin is the greater , if it be done upon deliberation against conscience ; let the pretence be , what you please . if this indeed should prove to be the kings case , which god forbid , then must it necessarily follow , that k it would be sinfull to him ; and so he should forfeit inward to procure outward peace ; and be represented to times in the glasse of conscience , to adventure the heavenly , to retain an earthly crown . nothing more certain . wo then be to him , or them , who ever they be , that plot , how they may endanger the kings earthly crown , that so they may deprive him of his heavenly inheritance . he hath been tried as gold in the furnace ; he hath been enforced thorow fire and water ; but for all this , with gods blessing he shall arrive in the haven of happinesse . 9. but there is an l oath , that stands in the way , which was taken at the kings coronation . this hath been prest by some learned pens , with that probabilitie , that ( by your own confession ) may stumble a right intelligent reader . but you are none of that number , you stumble not , but smoothly passe over such rubs ; and though m they have not hitherto received any satisfactory answer , yet now we shall have it in print n . by your pains the obj●ctions shall be cleared , which while they stand unanswe●ed , cast an ill reflection upon the king , in condescending to abrogate episcopacy . i beseech you , do you dream ? who told you , that his majestie had condescended to this impious and antichristian demand ? no , no , blessed be god , he hath done christ , and his church , and himself that honour , in the refusall of this proposition , that his memory shall be glorious in our histories , and his name high in the book of life . but for certain , they will cast an ill , a foule , an infamous ref●●ction upon those , who ever they be , that shall presse him to this unchristian act . this you , and your masters of the assembly can never avert with all your dutch devices , and geneva fallacies . i say it now , it shall be explained hereafter . 10. but why am i so forward , when o the kings oath may be taken off two wayes ; either by clearing the unlawfulnesse of it ; or else by manifesting , that p though episcopacy be lawfull , yet notwithstanding that his oath , the king may consent to the abrogation of episcopacy . both these your wayes shall be severally taken into consideration ; and first for the unlawfulnesse thereof . chap. ii. whether the kings oath taken at his coronation , be an unlawfull oath . 1. you say , and say truly , that a the oath , which is vinculum iniquitatis , the bond of iniquitie , is void the first day . and your reason is firme ; for qui jurat in iniquu● , obligatur in contrarium , he that swears to do that , which is unjust , is bound to performe the contrary . your argument hitherto is good ; and upon these very grounds we will joyne issue . but how will you proove , that his majestie hath sworne to uphold that , which is unjust or impious ? this shall be done by manifesting that b the king hath sworne to maintaine that , which is contrary to christs institution . and what is that ? episcopacy , say you . your resolution is high and peremptory , as if you were settled upon infall blegrounds ; which upon just try all will dissolve into sand . and yet with you i readily acknowledge , that c if prelacie in the church be an usurpation contra●y to christs institution ; then to maintain it , is to sin , and all bonds to sin are frustrate . 2. i hope you use no tricks ; but fairely without any fallacie , according to the question proposed , by prelacie you mean episcopacy , properly and strictly so called . otherwise there are foure termes in your syllogisme . now if this proposition be firme , upon the same grounds it will follow , you cannot deny it , that if supremacie in the parliament be an usurpation contrary to christs institution ; then to maintain it , is to sin . but supremacie in the parliament is an usurpation contrary to christs institution ; ergo to maintaine it , is to sin . that supremacie in the parliament is contrary to christs institution , is evident by st. peter , who placeth supremacie in the king ; in these words , d submit your selves to every ordinance of man for the lords sake , whether it be unto the king as supreme , or unto governours , that are sent by him , by the king. and every rationall man cannot but discerne , that there can be but one , not two supremes , in the same kingdome , e as you would have it . but of this more fully in the last chapter . secondly , it followes , if ordination by presbyters be an usurpation contrary to christs institution , then to maintain it , is to sin . but o●dination by presbyters is an usurpation contrary to christs institution . to maintain it therefore is to sin . the minor with gods blessing , shall suddenly be made good against the presbyterian jus divinum . thirdly , if episcopacy in the church be no vsurpation , but christs institution , then to endeavour the extirpation thereof , is sin . but episcopacy in the church is no usurpation ; but christs institution . therefore to endeavour the extirpation thereof , is sin . 3. that f you , your assembly , and parliament , have made and taken an oath to extirpate episcopacy , is too notorious to be denyed . but if i shall prove , that episcopacy is not contrary to christs institution , then shall i cleare the kings oath from sin . secondly , if i shall demonstrate , that episcopacy is the institution of christ , then is your covenant g vinculum iniquitatis , the very bond iniquitie ; and you are bound in conscience publickly and penitently to retract it . that the same order cannot be christs institution , and contrary to christs institution , is so apparent a truth , that a meer idiot may discern it . but the order of bishops is christs institution : and yet ye have sworne to up with it root and branch . much like to those in the prophet , h let us destroy the tree , with the fruit thereof . and yet the root of episcopacy is our b. saviour ; who is called i the bishop of our soules ; from him it takes his rise ; from him it receives life , it springs up , and is watered with the dew of his heavenly blessing . 4. we know , that he , from whom a familie springs , is called the root of that familie . that * our saviour is the root of episcopacy , that from him it received being and life , is evident in the apostles strictly so called , who had their orders immediately from christ , as is evident s. mat : 10. s. luk : 9. s. i● : 20. 21. &c. to them he gave power to ordain apostles , in gratis accepistis , gratis date . s. mat. 10. 8. so s. k ambrose , so s. l jerome , so m gennadius patriarch of constantinople , with seventy and three bishops more in a full synod . our saviours words are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which the greekes understands thus , a gift ye have received , give ye this gift . this commission he renewed unto them after his resurrection , in these words , n as my father sent me , so send i you . so s. o hilarie , so p s. cyril , and other with them , upon the strength of this commission christs apostles ordeined some other to be apostles , conferring upon them the same honour and power which they themselves had received from christ . this is evident in s iames bishop of hierusalem , in epaphroditus , bishop of philippi , and in apollos bishop of corinth . these are called apostles in scripture ; s. iames , gal. 1. 19. epaphroditus , phil. 2. 25. apollos , 1 cor. 4. 9. and these are confessed to be apostoli ab ipsis , ap stolis ordinati , apostles o●dained by the apostles ; even by q s. jerome , r calvin , and your mighty champion ſ walo melsalinus . 5. apostles they were at that time called , but afterwards that title , upon just occasion was taken from them , and the name of b●shop was setled upon them , and their successors in office. so theodoret. t the same persons were sometimes called both presbiters and bishops , but those who are now named bishops , were then called apostles . but in processe of time the title of apostle was reserved to those , who were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 apostles properly and t●uly so called . and the name of bishop became appropriated to those , who were lately called apostles . hence is it , that timothy and titus are called bishops and apostles : bishops in the postscripts of those epistles , which were written to them by s. paul ; but apostles by k ignatius , l theodoret , and m many other . 6. bishops they were at that time called , when episcopacy was distinguished from the presbyteriall order ; but n apostles they were named , when a bishop and a presbyter were one and the same . these were o apost●es not onely by name , but in office and power ; and p governed churches and their presbyter-bishops by the same right , and with the same authority , that the cheife and prime apostles swaied them with . and as they governed , so they , and they onely ordained pres●yters . 7. from hence we argue thus . they , that have the same name and office with the true apostles , are of the same order with the true apostles . bu● bishop timothy , and bishop titus , and bishop epaphroditus have the same name and office with the true apostles . they are therefore of the same order with the true apostles . q the major is smectymnuus his proposition , and not to be doubted of . the minor , or second proposition shall be justified by salmasius ; who in severall passages acknowledgeth this name , and office , and power in epaphroditus bishop of philippi . take this for all ; r epaphroditus pau●o dicitur apostolus philippensium ; quia ad philippenses eum miser at ad ecclesiam eorum confirmandam , & constituendos in eâ presbyteros & episcopos ▪ that the name of apostle was usually given to timothy and titus , i have already manifested . that the apost●licall power was in each of them , is evident by those epistles , which s. paul wrote unto them : and more briefly in these words to titus ſ for this cause left i thee in creete , that thou shouldest set in order , o● redresse , what is wanting , or a misse , and ordain presbyters in every city as i have appointed thee . herein is both jurisdiction and ordination allowed him ; and the maine power of the apostolicall order consists in jurisdiction and ordination . herein the bishops , and onely bishops , succeed them . 8. since then the apostleship and episcopacy , are one & the same office , he that is the root and author of the one , is the root and author of the other . but christ is the root and author of the apostleship ; he is therefore the root and author of episcopacy . in covenanting then to take away episcopacy root and branch , you have done no lesse then covenanted to take away jesus christ , t who gave the ap●stles , and u ordeined them in the church . indeed ye have taken the ready way to root him out o● our hearts & soules . for ye have absolutely stripped the church of the three creeds , the ten commandments , and the lords prayer , with the epistles and gospels ; wherein was daily mention made of our b. god. and saviour , as also of his power , pleasure , and mercy . and what i pray you , is become of the lords supper , x which we are commanded to administer and receive , in remembrance of our b. saviour ? and y unlesse we eat his flesh , and drink his blood , in that holy sacrament , we have no life abiding in us . many parishes in this kingdom have been utterly deprived of this heavenly supper , even since their lawfull parsons or vicars have been imprisoned , or sequestred by your instigation . so farewell ro●t and branch , and fruit , as much as in you lieth . and now , i hope , the kings oath is cleerly discharged of sin ; and your covenant sufficiently proved to be the bond of iniquity . 9. but how comes it to passe , that if root and branch must up , yet by your ordinance some branches of that root may be preserved ? for it is resolved , that z ordination performed by a bishop , being a presbyter , j●yned with other presbyters , is for substance va●id , and not to be disclaimed●y any , that have received it . and most probable it is , that you are a branch , or sucker , of that root . for a presbyters so ordained , shall he admitted to a charge , without any new ordination . is not this a flat contradiction ? some branches lopped off , and some spared ; is this according to your solemne league and covenant ? indeed had they taken all branches away , which spring from that root , there had hardly been a man of any learning left . and is not that clerke , who hath been ordeined by a bishop , a wise man , to sware to root himselfe up , if not here , yet out of the land of the living . for he that is not a member of the church militant , can never be a saint in the church triumphant . chap. iii. whether prelacy in the church of england were an usurpation . 1. the question proposed is , of episcopacy ; the oath is for the maintenance of episcopacy ; and your endeavour is for the abrogation of episcopacy . according to your sense therefore by prelacy i understand episcopacy , which you have vowed and covenanted to extirpate . whether upon just grounds , or no , shall be now enquired . for the office is either good or bad , lawfull or unlawfull , necessary or indifferent . if in it self bad , and utterly unlawfull , god forbid , but we should joyne in the extirpation of it . if indifferent , it is in the breast of authority , to allow , or disallow it . but if simply lawfull , and good , and necessary , for the being and continuation of a church , then it is not in the just power of man to discard it , or cast it off . and yet you resolve , that b the kings oath to uphold episcopacy is sin . if sin , then it necessarily followes , that episcopacy in it self is naught , and utterly unlawfull . thus in the first place you condemne all the kings and queens of this kingdome , that have taken this oath . secondly , you condemne those many saints of god , that have discharged this office of episcopacy . thirdly , you condemne all those fathers , and councels , which justify a necessity of bishops . and last of all you condemn the whole church of christ , which from her infancie hath been governed by bishops . is not this to c blaspheme the footsteps of the lords anointed ? is not this to question the actions of those saints d to whom the faith was first delivered ? is not this to vilifie the spouse of christ , and christ himselfe ▪ who hath suffered the church to erre so foully from the beginning . 2. but how shall it be proved , that episcopacy is so bad , that it is a sin to defend it ? an universall proposition must have an universall proofe . exparticulari nonest syllogizari . a particular makes no proofe , but for that particular , whereof it treats . i● i manifest , that monarchy , or arist●cracy hath been a●used in such a state or nation , by such or such a prince , or peeres , do i therefore justifie , that it is a sin to defend moarchy , or aristocracy ; o● if i shall make it appeare , that some parliament men have abused that trust , which is committed to them , is therefore a parliament naught ? this follows not ; but hereby i manifest , that they who at that time sat at the helme in that place , did abuse that , which in it self is good . is the apostleship naught , because judas abused himself and that ? is episcopacy bad , because gregory vii ▪ of rome , george of cappadocia , or paulus samosatenus abused their place and function ? far be it from me to argue , or conclude in this manner . i have learned to distinguish between the office and the officer : the office may be simply good , and the officer extremely bad . this then is no argument against episcopacy , though perchance you may prove , that episcopacy hath been ill managed . 3. but view we your own words , which are the minor of your conditionall syllogisme ; which are these . e and truly as prelacy stood with us in england ingr●ssing all ruledome in the church into the hands of a few l. bishops , i think it may be cleered to be an usurpation . and truly i think not . so you and i are of two severall opinions . but truly your thinking shall be cleered ●y this one argument . f that power , that dispoiles any of christs officers , of any priviledge , or duty indulged or injoined them by the word of god , that power is an usurpation against the word . but this prelacy did , as it stood in england ergo , english prelacie was an usurpation against the word of god. 4. how properly you speake , and how strongly you argue , let the intelligent judge : that you , and others may be sensible of the strength of your argument , under favour of parliament , i shall invert it thus . that power that despoiles any of christs officers of any priviledge or duty indulged or injoined them by the word of god , that power is an usurpation against the word . but this the parliament doth , as it stands now in england ergo , the english parliament is an usurpation against the word of g●d . i hope you know your own argument ; though it alter a terme , it alters not the forme . g the major , you say , is cleer of it self , it needs no proofe , as you conceive . the difficultie is in the minor ; and that i make good thus , out of your own words . h presbyters are by christs warrant , in scripture indued with power to rule in their own congregations , as well as preach . but the parliament hath banished many hundreds of us from our own congregations , and barred us from preaching therein . ergo , the parliament hath despoiled many of christs officers of their priviledges and duties indulged , and injoyned them by the word of god. you cannot deny us to be christs officers , since we are presbyters . that we are presbyters , is acknowledged by your great masters ; i who grant all those to be presbyters , who have been ordained by a bishop j●yned with other presbyters . and so , i am sure , we are . 5. let a review be taken of the soliditie of your former argument ; and then we shall finde you offend in limine , in that major , which is so clear of it self . for do not you say thus ? that power , that despoils any of christs ●fficers of any priviledge , or duty indulged or injoyned them by the word of god , that power is an usurpation against the word . had you said , that power , that wrongfully , or causelesly despoils any of christs officers , &c. you had said something . you have not , it seems , learned to distinguish between justly and unjustly ; but we must . and yet k this proposition is clear of it self , if we take your word . but gods word and yours , are two . gods word saies , l non est potestas nisi à deo , there is no power but of god ; but you say , that there is a power , which is an usurpation against the word of god. but how can that be usurpata , which is data ; both usurped , and given ? that it is given by god , m our saviour testifies , s. joh. 19. 11. indeed this power may be abused ; and the abuse of this power is an usurpation . the office is from god , the abuse from our selves . but you cannot , or will not distinguish between the office and the abuse . if all ●ffi●es must be discarded , because the officers have done a misse , what office will remain in this kingdom ? i fear , not one . 6. we read , that n pas●ur the high priest set jeremie the prophet in the stocks for preaching the truth , o which the lord had commanded him to preach . and yet who dares say that the high priesthood in the old law was an usurpation ? we know , that p the office of a king is gods own ordinance ; and yet we dare not say , that the power of jehoi●kim king of juda was an usurpation against gods word , when q he slew vrijah the prophet . but we may safely and truly justifie , that he abused his power . and so did king zedekiah , when r he imprisoned jeremiah for prophesying , what the lord had injoyned him to denounce . both regall and priestly power are the gift of god ; they cannot therefore but be good . but the abuse of this power to other ends then god gave it , is the viciousnesse of man , and therefore bad . ſ solomon made just use of this power , when he despoiled abiathar the high priest not onely of his priviledges , but also of his office , and of all that belonged to his office . the reason is , because t abiathar for his treason deserved this and an heavier doom . and i presume , it was no usurpation in st. paul , when u he delivered hymeneus unto satan , that he might learn not to blaspheme : nor yet when he x anathematized and accursed those preachers , that taught otherwise , then they had received . if then our bishops have made use of this power in silencing or depriving hereticall , schismaticall , or seditious preachers , y they have done no more then they ought to do . this therefore is no usurpation , but a just use of that power , which with their orders was conferr'd upon them for this end and purpose . 7. i have done with your major ; now to your minor. z but this prelacy did ▪ as it stood in england . what did it ? why it a despoiled christs ●fficers ( the good presbyters that preached up the scottish discipline and doctrine ) of their priviledges indulged , and duty inj●yned them by the word of god. if they deserved this censure , it was no despoiling , but a just deprivation . if they deserved it not , let it be proved . i am sure , courts and committees have been long enough open , to receive large informations , and easie proofs against them . and i am as sure , that our saviour never indulged any such priviledge to his apostles , or any other of his ●fficers , as to vent heresie , schisme , or sedition . if any bish●p be faultie , i plead not for him . i justifie episcopacy , not the bishop . judas was bad , cut his episcopacy good ; judas offended , but not his office . judas was cut off , not his episcopacy ; b the office is continued , and a good man must be put into it . so st. peter . and c let another take his bishopprick . so the spirit of prophecie . prelacy therefore is not in fault ; but the prelate . and it is as false a speech to say ▪ prelacy despoils any , as to say , judicature wrongs any . since we know , that judicature is blamelesse , when the judge is criminous . and as improper a speech it is to say , that a man is despoiled of his duty : i may be forbidden my duty , but not spoiled of it : because i am bound to discharge it , though forbidden , if unlawfully forbidden . 8. but what are these priviledges , and duties , whereof they are said to be despoiled ? the particulars are these ; d power to rule , and to preach in their own congregations ; and this power they are indued with ●y christs warrant . power to rule , and by christs warrant , sound high , and raise attention . and this they have as well , as much , as power to preach ; if we may beleeve you . as if they had ruledome ( as you call it ) from christ himself . if this be doubted of , you give us scripture for it , and that in foure severall texts . the first is this , e if any cannot rule his own house , how shall he take care for the church ? here is care to be taken for the church , but no rule given to a presbyter in the church , unlesse you allow him as much power to rule in his parish , as he hath in his own house . to which assertion no man , i conceive , will subscribe . it is required indeed , f if any lay-man desire to be a presbyter-bishop , that before he be ordained , he be known to be such a one , g that could rule his own house well . but what is this to prove , that by christs warrant in scripture a presbyter is indued with power to rule in his eongregation ? alas , h this government , as your learned brethren confesse , is but domesticall in private families ; not ecclesiasticall in the publick congregation . in like manner i deacons must be such , as rule their houses and children well . and yet ye allow them no ruledome in the church , but set lay-ruling elders to over-top them . no warrant here for this presbyteriall ruling power ; what may come hereafter , shall be examined . 9. the next proof is from the same epistle ; the words are these ; k i charge thee before god , and the lord jesus christ , and the elect angels , that thov observe these things without preferring one before another , and do nothing partially . this is something , were it to the purpose . here is a large authoritie given to timothy in this chapter ; and a charge in this verse , that he be carefull to discharge his office with integritie . but what is this to the point in question ? alas , you are clean mistaken in your mark . it rests upon you to prove , that this power in scripture is given to a presbyter-bishop ; whereas it is here given to an apostle-bishop ; who is clean of another , an higher order . if i should justifie , that a sergeant at law hath power to hear and determine suits in westminster-hall , because the justices of the kings bench , and common ple●● have such a commission , you would think , i were beside the cushion ; and so are you . 10. in the third place , you produce a text of the same apostle to the hebrews ; where-in he commands his brethren , to l obey those , that have the over-sight of them , and to submit themselves un●o them . no question , but they ought to do so . but who are these praepositi , these rulers , here mentioned ? are they presbyters onely ? presbyters are not mentioned here ; and it is impossible to prove , that presbyters onely are intended here ; unlesse they be the onely church-governors . it is rather to be beleeved , that all church-governors , or else the chief governors , were here intended . that he speaks of presbyters , i deny not ; but that he speaks of presbyters onely , i utterly deny . when you can prove , that onely presbyters m watch for the souls of the people , and that they onely must give an account for those souls , then shall i readily acknowledge , that the apostle speaks only of presbyters in this place . 11. if the kings majestie should command his souldiers to obey their commanders , could any man imagine , that he spake of the lieutenants and captains onely ? no wise man can have this imagination : but this must reach , to majors , and collonels , and all other in authority . thus , when the lord commands his people , to obey those governors , that watch for their souls , he means not onely deacons and presbyters , but bishops also . for as in an army there are captains over souldiers , and commanders over captains ; so in the church , which is n aci●s ordinata , a well-ordered army , there are o praepositi populo ▪ & praepositi presbyteris , spirituall governors of the people , and some set over both people and presb●ters . such were the apost●●s in scripture , and such their p 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , their copartners in labour , and successors in office ; whom we now call bishops . such were timothy and titus , q who had not onely the power of ordination , but of jurisdiction also : that is , they had authoritie , not onely to set in order , what was amisse in the church , and r to reform the laitie ; but to 1. convent , 2. silence , and 3. excommunicate the clergie , even deacons and presbyters , if they deserved it . 12. for convention , in the first place observe , that ſ s. paul acknowledgeth in bishop timothy power to receive an accusation against a presbyter , or elder ; and upon proofe to rebuke him . which could not be done without conventing him . 2ly . that the power to silence preaching presbyters was in bishop timothy , these words manifest , t thou maiest command some that they teach no other doctrine . and as for bishop titus u 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , it be hoves him to stop the mouths of the disobedient and deceitfull , as also to x stay foolish questions and contentions . and if this will not serve , then must they proceed to higher censures even to excommunication . for doth not s. paul command timothy , to y withdraw himself from those , that teach unwholsome doctrine ? and what this means let beza speake ; z gravissime damnatos extra ecclesiam ejicit , he casts for●h these as condemned men out of the church . for as s. cyprian speaks , a they that are not in communion with the bishop , are out of the church . timothy then being bishop of that church , and withdrawing his communion from them , they were no longer members of the church . this power , we see , was in the apostle bishops ; but no man can shew that ever it was in the presbyter bishops , par enim in parem non habet potestatem ; it is a sure rule , that no man hath power over his equall , while his equall . 13. the last place is reserved for the first in scripture , which you have kept for your reserve to help at a dead lift ; and this it is . b we beseech you , brethren , that ye know them , which labour among you , and are over you in the lord , and admonish you : a great friend of the presbytery tels us that c this is the same with that , which the apostle speaks in another epistle that those presbyters are worthy of double honour , who labour in the word and doctrine . so then , in his judgement , this rule , you so much boast of is , but your labouring in the word and doctrine . and surely he hath two able men , that back him very well , viz. the●d●ret and ca●vin . theodoret tels us , that when s. pau saith , qu●praesunt , th●se th●t are over you in the lord , it is all one ▪ as if he ha● said , they that ●ff●● up prayers and supplica●ions for y●u . and ca●vin thu● , e qu docendo rite & fideliter gu●ernant , who by teaching orderly and faithfully govern the people . and el●ewhere f he expounds this kind of g●verning by boris & salutaribus consiliis popu●o praeire , by guiding the pe●ple with good and wholesome counsell . the preifis rule then consists in 1 prayer for gods people , in 2 admonishing , 3 inst●ucting , and 4 advising them ; as also in 5 conveying to them those heavenly blessings by the sacraments ; which in an ordinary way they could not otherwi●e obtain . this is all the rule , that i can find belonging to presbyters . and this was ever allowed you in your own congregations , while ye behaved your selves as the ministers , of christ in all meeknesse and sobriety , dividing the word of god aright ; and while ye kept within the ru●e of faith . 14. thus your ruledome ( my fellow presbyters ) is come to no great matter by these texts . shew me one place of scripture , that allowes presbyters to excommunicate , or absolve , of their own authority ; and i shall be of your mind , and justifie , that ye have susteined much wrong ; if ye have been suspended from officiating , or silenced , ye may thank your unbridled tongues , which have been so lavish in venting unsound and seditious doctrine . the bishop in these cases hath but discharged that dutie , which is required of him by gods word . 1 ▪ tim. 6. 3. 5. 2. tim. 3. 5. tit. 1. 11. tit. 3. 9. and it is no more , then the presbytery chalengeth to it selfe in those places , where it hath gained autho●i●y . 15. g that ye were excluded from all society in rule ▪ is that , which troubles you . society pretends equ●litie , and rule is that which ye affect . so ye may be made bishops , or b●shops fellowes , equall with them in rule and authority , all sh●ll be well , but till then we must expect no p●ace , if ye can hinder it . h●d your leading church-men be●n made bish●ps or deanes , the k●ngs oath had been most just , and unalterable ; yea unquestion●ble . some mens mouths have been stopt so heretof●re ; the more the pitie : and ye have gaped after such morsels . what the benefit hath been , is sufficiently discerned , and ambitious male-contents shall no more , i hope , be tempted in this manner to continue among us , when they are neither with us , nor of us . but , i pray you , what society in rule , can you chalenge with the bishops , when by scripture ye are made subject to them ? we know your pride ; ye would faine be hail-fellows with your governours both ecclesiasticall and civill . faine would ye have the raines in your own hands , with phaeton , though it were with the same issue . but how shall they learn to govern , that know not how to obey ? all baristers are not qualified to be judges . 16. but there is another thing , which troubles you marvelously , that you deem to be h much more prejudiciall to the dignity and liberty of the ministery ; namely to be subjected to a lay chancelour . and yet how many lay chancelours have you subjected us to ? i to the whole parliament ; that 's plaine ; and yet not so much as one presbyter among them : and to every committee-man both in citie and countrie , whose busie apparators are all persons disaffected to the doctrine and discipline of the church of england . and all this is for the dignity and liberty of the ministery , according to your new magna charta . thus much to manifest , that ye are deeply plunged in those crimes , which you boldly charge upon others . but this is no new , no strange thing . for this hath been generally observed ; when your great masters blemish our most gracious soveraigne with any foule or illegall surmise , they usually act it themselves . dominisimiles , such masters , and such chaplaines . k par autem erat , ut vel quod accusant , non facerent , vel quod facerent , non accusarent . but it were meet , that either they should not do , what they blame ; or not blame , what they do . 17. and now , i beseech you which is most prejudicall , to be subject to one lay chancelour in a diocese , or to those great lay courts of lords and commons and others at westminster ? to so many lay committees in the city ; to so many in every countie ? without whom ye are not able to subsist , nor to abide in your congregations , if these men take but the least offence against you . and how can the gentrie and comminaltie of this kingdome take it well , that you complain so much of one lay chancelour in a diocese , and yet enthrall them to so many lay elders , parochiall , classicall , provinciall , and nationall . say not , that there be preaching elders joyned with them , least it be returned upon you , that the lay chancelour is but the bishops officer in such cases of judicature , as belong to his profession ; and to the bishop he is accountable . but you can endure no loy judges over you , on any hand . and whereas l you charge the lay chancelorship with usu●pation contrary to gods direction , i am certain , ye have made use of it against gods direction . for how many of you have been instituted into benefices by lay chancelours ? qu● jure , comes not now to be scanned . thus ye can abuse them , and yet use them . but i shall turn you over to the doct●rs of the commons ; them it concerns , they are well able to argue the case with you , and to wash off these aspersions . 18. your first argument is , i hope , sufficiently confuted in the eye of indifferent and judicious men . i shall not therefore any longer insist upon it , but observe , at how low a rate you value authority . nor bishop , nor king , nor your idolized parliament shall be a power , but an usurpation against god and his word , if they deny you any priviledge indulged , or debarre you any dutie , which ye suppose to be injoyned you by the word . if they sequester you from the pulpit , or from ruling in your congregations , farewell my great lords and masters at westminster . and when they have sold the bishops and chapters lands , they shall no longer be a parliament , but an vsurpation ; because they have m despoiled you of those lands , which ye lay claim to , and which they ought to have disposed of , to supply you and your predicant brethren with such maintenance , as your selves hold sufficient . chap. iv. whether the king may consent to the abrogation of epi●copacy , if so that calling be la●full . 1. saving your argument , in the first place this is certain , ●f episcopacy be lawfull , then the kings oath at coronation was not as you would have it vinculum iniquitatis , a bond of iniquitie . and hereupon it follows , quod non obligatur in contrarium , that he is not bound to break this oath . take this by the way . you must then seek some other way , to cleere it to us , that it is lawfull for his majestie to wave this oath . but your own conscience seemes to check you for your former resolution ; you therefore confesse , that n this way of invalidating the kings is most satisfactory but to some . 2. surely if to some it be satisfactory , those some are such , that are either very weak , or wilfully blinded with avarice ; o whose gaine is godlinesse . but the end will prove , th●t p godlinesse is pr●fitable to all things . q that is ( as the geneva note hath it ) he that hath faith and a good conscience , is promised to have all things necess●ry for this life , and to injoy life everlasting . this would be seriously layed to heart . 3. but though your former argument seem satisfactory to some r yet to some it will not hold ; namely to those that are not c●nvinced of the unlawfulnesse of episcopacy . what ? so satisfactory and yet not hold ? alas , alas , what creatures have you to deale with ? pitie it is , that you have to deale with learned and rationall men , and not with ignoramus and his dull man. what shall now become of your case of conscience ? why ? z it will cast the resolution of this doubt upon another question . from one question to an other . and what 's that ? the lawfulnesse of episcopacy . this is a large field , that you are not acquainted with . and yet to satisfie the conscience of your reader , you have already concluded , that a episc●pacy is an usurpation against the word of g●d ; and therefore sinfull and unlawfull . how ? conclude first , that episcopacy is unlawfull , and then b grant it to be lawfull . but this is granted onely for argument sake . that is , because your argument is so loose , that it proves just nothing again●● episcopacy . for a firme demonstration admits of no contradiction , it leaves no doubt behind . 4. well , be it lawfull , c yet not withstanding that his o●th , th● king without impea●hment may in this circumstance consent to the ab●●g●tion of episcopacy . what mean you by circumstance ? is the kings o●●h , or episcopacy , or the abr●ga●i●n of episcopacy but a circumstance ? a circumstance is that , which is not substantiall , or essentiall to the point in question ; but comes in upon the by ; at most , for illustration . the question is , d whether the king , notwithstanding his oath , may consent with a safe conscience , to the abrogation of episcopacy ? all these then i take to be essentiall to the question ; unlesse a safe conscience be with you and with your brethren but a circumstance . and yet it is such an ingredient , that a man may neither swear , nor consent to , nor act , but what he may undertake with a safe conscience . e for if our heart ( if our conscience ) condemn us , god is greater then our heart , and knoweth all things ; his majesty , i make no question , hath sadly thought on this . 5. that he may abrogate that which is lawfull , you say , and we deny not , since god hath given kings a power nt onely over things indifferent , but even in such things , as are lawfull , and honest , and in their kind necessary for the preservation of a common-wealth . this is evident in jonadab the sonne of rechab , f who commanded his posterity , that they should neither drink wine , nor build house , nor sow seed , nor plant vineyard , nor have any . and yet as lawfull , and necessary , as these things were , g they obeyed their fathers voice . h god approves of their obedience , and crowns it with a blessing . and what a father is in his own familie , that is a king , at least , within his own dominions . 6. but here the case is different , for the question is concerning christs own ordinance and institution ; which the king hath sworne to maintaine . this then being lawfull , and legally sworne , the oath may not in any wise be dispenced with . nay , if we say , that the king , or any authoritie upon earth , may alter , or abolish any one ordinance of our saviour , we contradict our selves , and complie with the papists . what reason bring we against the halfe communion , but christs own institution , who commanded it to be deliver'd and received in both kinds . and i calvin deservedly reproves bishop cardiner for attributing this power to a king : now if episcopacy be our saviours institution , then may no humane power root it up ; least they that do it , be rooted out of the land of the living . but that this very order , which we now call episcopacy , is christs own institution , is already proved cap. 2. 6. 7 8. 7. besides , if this be the onely order , to which christ hath given power to ordaine presbyters and deacons , who shall confer these orders , when bishops are taken away , and utterly extinguished ? say not , that in case of necessity presbyters may ordaine , when you maliciously make the necessity . god provides for such necessities , as are inforced upon us , or happen casually and inevitably ; not for those , whereinto we wittingly and wilfully plunge our selves ; delve up the root , & god will hardly work a miracle to provide sap for the branches , or body of the tree . k sine nostro officio est plebi certa pernicies . it is s. austins . without our , without the episcopall office there is certaine ruine to the people . s. austine was a bishop , when he resolved thus , and wrote it to a bishop . l that i may speake plainly ; god and the times require it : no bishop , no preist ; no preist , no lords supper ; no lords supper , no salvation , according to the ordinary way prescribed by our blessed saviour . 8. this shall be made good , first according to your protestation ; secondly , according to your solemn league and covenant . in your m protestation , ye have vowed in the presence of almighty god , to maintain and defend the true reformed protestant religion expressed in the doctrine of the church of england . this doctrine is punctually and carefully delivered in the 39 articles . according to which articles i proceed thus . the ordinary way to heaven is by the word and sacraments . no man may preach , or administer the sacraments , but he that is lawfully called and sent . none are lawfully called and sent , but they onely , who are called and sent by those , that have authority . but bishops , and onely bishops have authority to send in this kind . and therefore no bishop , no ordinary way to heaven . 9 the first proposition is not doubted of by protestant or papist ; it is therefore taken for granted . the second proposition is in terminis let down art : 23. it is not lawfull for any man to take upon him the office of publicke preaching or ministring the sacraments in the congregation , before he be lawfully called and sent , to execute the same . the third is likewise expressed in the same article . those we ought to judge lawfully called and sent , which be chosen and called to this work by men , who have publick , authority given unto them in the congregation to call and send ministers into the lords vineyard . and who are these men , that have this authority ? bishops , onely bishops ; so the 36 article . the book of consecration of arch-bishops and bishops , and ordering of preists and deacons , doth containe all things necessary to such consecration and ordering and whosoever are consecrated or ordered according to the rites of that book , ●●e decreed to be rightly , orderly , and lawfully consecrated and ordered . but therein the bishop onely hath authority to ordain . and in the preface to the book of ordination it is resolved that i is requisite that no man shall execute any of these orders , except he be called , tried , examined and admitted , according to the forme following in that book . 10. thus we cannot but see , that according to the expresse doctrine of this church of england without a bishop no sacraments , and consequently no salvation . for though god can save without meanes , yet he hath tied us to the meanes ; and the meanes must be used , if we desire to be saved n this book was composed and set forth in the time of k edward the sixt , by those holy men , who afterwards were blessed martyrs , and at the same time confirmed by full consent and authority of parliament . o after this in the time of queen elizabeth it was again confirmed , and alwaies ratified with the 39 articles ; and p the clergie injoyned to subscribe to this booke , in and with those articles , that so they might be known to be in communion with the church of england . thus far with the protestation . chap. v. whether ye have not bornd your selves by your solemne league and covenant , to maintain episcopacy . 1. now i descend to your solemne league and covenant , wherein ye have publickly vowed to endeavour the reformation of religion according to the word of god , and the example of the best reformed churches . i shall therefore prove first by the word of god , and secondly by the best reformed churches , that ye have solemnly bound your selves to maintain episcopacy , if so ye are resolved to keep this branch of your covenant . 2. first , we know , that q there is no other name under heaven , whereby we may be saved , but onely the name of our lord jesus christ . secondly , we are agreed , that r faith comes by hearing , and hearing by the word of god. thirdly , our saviour saith flatly , ſ except ye eat the flesh of the son of man ; and drink his blood , ye have no life in you . we cannot therefore but acknowledge , that without the word and sacraments , there 's no salvation . since then all those , that are in orders , exercise t the ministration of the word and sacraments , not in their own name , but in christs , and do minister by his commission and authority ; we are therefore to enquire , who have this commission given them in and by the word of christ . for s. paul wonders , u how any man can preach , in publick , except he be sent . the commission for preaching was immediately given by our b. saviour , both to the twelve apostles , and to the seventy disciples . to the twelve , st. luk 9. 2. st. matth. 28. 19. to the seventy , st. luk. 10. 9. 16. the commission to consecrate and administer the lords supper , is given to the twelve apostles , st. luk. 22. 19. 1 cor. 11. 24. x st. paul , and y st. matthias also were immediately admitted to the apostleship by christ himself . these , and onely these , who are here mention'd , were immediately ordained by our b. saviour . 3. but our saviour having commanded and provided , that z all nations should be taught , and baptized ; and having a instituted , and in his holy gospel commanded us to continue a perpetuall memory of his precious death , untill his coming again ; that this might be done , he gave his apostles this large commission , b as my father hath sent me , even so send i you . and how was that ? even to preach , to baptize , to consecrate , and administer the lords supper ; to binde sinners , and loose the penitent ; and to ordain other apostles and presbyters , which might continue these blessings to his people in all ages . as also else-where in c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . a gift ye have received , give this gift . the greeks take not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 adverbially , but substantively : and i beleeve , in the east they understand their own , the greek tongue better , then we do in the west . and as they were commanded , they did . d s. paul and s. barnabas were apostles ; and them we find ordaining presbyters in every church , where they come . act. 14. 23. e s. paul himself ordains timothy to be the apostle , or bishop of ephesus . he gives the power of ordination to titus . tit. 1. 5. and acknowledgeth it to be in timothy . 1 tim. 5. 22. these were the apostles , or bishops properly so called , of their severall churches . these had the power of ordination , but not the seventy , not those of the inferior order , not meer presbyters . 4. besides , doth not st. paul justifie , that f none may preach , except they be sent ? talk not of an inward calling , or extraordinary sending . neither of these will serve the turn , without the outward , without the ordinary ordination . st. pauls words are full to this purpose . g no man taketh this honour [ of priesthood ] to himself , but he that is called of god , as aaron was . the extraordinary calling , which some pretend to , is abolished , in that , no man takes this honour to himself . how then must he attain the priesthood ? the apostle tels you , he must be called of god , as aaron was . and how was that ? non immediatè a deo , sed mediante hominis ministerio ; he was not called or ordained immediately by god , but by the interceding ministery of man. the apostle therefore doth not say , he , that is called of god , as moses was ; but , he , that is called of god , as aaron was . but we know , that though h moses were immediately ordained by god , yet i aaron was not , he was ordained by moses . and yet both k moses and aaron are among his priests ; for moses discharged the priests office , before aaron was ordained . exod. 24. 4. &c. exod. 29. 12. 18. 25. 36. &c. exod. 30. 29. 30. 5. i have done with your first way , having , according to your covenant , proved by scripture , that none may confer orders in the church of christ , but onely apostles , or bishops , as we take them in a strict and ecclesiasticall sense : that is , onely such , as are of the same order with the apostles , and may fitly be called apostle-bishops . 6. we are now cast upon the example of the best reformed churches , which may raise some dust . for when we descend to comparisons , we cannot but displease those , who are left out of the superlative . yet this i dare say , that those churches are best reformed , which come neerest to the primitive church in doctrine and government . for to reform is not to innovate , but in primaevam & veram formam reducere , to settle it in the ancient and true state . for l thus saith the lord ; stand in the wayes , and behold , and ask for the old way , which is the good way , and walk therein , and ye shall find rest for your souls . this rule therefore is given by zanchius , m exempla veteris ecclesiae nobis debent esse instar praecepti ; and your learned ministers of london second him , assuring us , that n the examples of the ancient church bind us as firmly , as any precept . and reason good , since o the custome of the ancient church is optima legis interpres , the best interpreter of the law of christ . the ancient church then ought to be a pattern to all reformers . 7. well , what kinde of government was there in the primitive church ? peter moulin testifies , that p either in the apostles times , or suddenly after , bishops had praeheminence over presbyters , in the severall cities , wherein they were setled . this government is very ancient ; and in the church of christ every thing the more ancient it is , the truer and better it is . zanchius justifies it . q in ecclesia dei , quo quid antiquius , eo etiam est verius , ideoque & melius . and lest i may seem to wrest that famous learned mans words to another sense , then he intended them , i shall give you his resolution at large concerning this point in question , whether bishops , or no bishops : and this it is . r hoc unum addo , me coram deo in mea conscientia , non alio habere loco quàm schismaticorum , illos omnes , qui in parte reformationis ecclesiarum ponunt nullos habere episcopos , qui authoritatis gradu supra veros compresbyteros emineant , ubi liquido , possint haberi . praeterea cum d. calvino , nullo non anathemate dignos censeo , quotquot illi hierarchiae , quae se domino jesu christo snbmittit , subjici nolunt . these are his words in latine ; and to your comfort you shall have them in english : like them as you please . this one thing i adde ( saith learned zanchius ) that in my conscience before god , i esteeme all those no better then schismaticks , who make it a part of reformation to have no bishops in the church ( where they may readily be had ) which maybe above their true fellow-presbyters in degree of authoritie . yea , with mr. calvin , i hold them worthy of the most grievous curse , who will not submit to that sacred prelacy , which is subject to christ . he was far from a rooter . 8. neither is zanchius alone , he hath that moderate and judicious melancthon to second him ; who is so right and home for episcopacy , that he comes with his ſ ego reddo , i , for my part , restore the whole jurisdiction and dignitie to bishops . and t he wisheth with all , that he and the rest of his friends might redeem peace , though it were upon harder terms . yea , he affirms , that u he sees not , quo ore , with what face they can take from bishops their ecclesiasticall government . and then he adds : x that i may speak my mind vtinam , utinam possem , non quidem dominationem confirmare , sed administrationem episcoporum restituere : i would to god , i would to god , it were in my power , not to confirm the dominion , but to restore the administration of bishops . for i see , i see ( saith he ) what a ●inde of church we are like to have , when the ecclesiasticall policie shall be dissolved . video postea multo intolerabiliorem futuram tyrannidem , quam antea unquam fuit i see , we are hereafter like to have a far more intolerable tyranny , then ever we have known heretofore note that ; and consider , whether experience hath not made us sensible , that his words were but a prophecie of these times . and after this he expostulates the same businesse with camerarius , and questions , y quo jure , by what law it might be free for them , to subvert the ecclesiasticall policie ; if so the bishops would yeeld unto them , what is meet ? the question being thus proposed , his resolution follows ; z et ut liceat , certè non expedit ; but suppose it lawfull yet is it not expedient . luther himself was ever of this opinion ; whom some , i perceive , love meerly for this ; because by his means they had shaked off their bishops , and thereby gained libertatem minimè utilem ad posteritatem , such a litertie , as will be little for the good of posteritie . this he spake , and we feel . a for what kinde of state shall the church be in , in after ages , if all ancient customes and manners be utterly abolished , and no certain governors established ? god knows , and we imagine . 9. hitherto you have seen , how zanchius for himselfe and calvin ; and melanthon with luther , did endeavour , even in the shell , to crush that new model , b which ye boast to be of divine right , and yet confesse , that c it is not much above fourscore yeers standing ; and that but d in some churches . for , the truth is , ye can give us no president for the presbyteriall government in any one orthodoxe church , for 1500 yeers after our saviours ascension . all this while the wisedom of god , it seemes was breeding this truth , and stayed for you , and such as you are , to be her midwives . her pangs were long and doubtful , but now juno lucina hath done her part , and the strip●ing reckons fourescore yeers , and that but in cantons , in some odde corners of the world . truth it is , he was creeping in here about seventy yeers since ; but banished he was as dangerous to the crowne . but now he is returned in a fresh suite , and hath got the hand both of king and bishops ; yea he hath put the peeres shroadly to it ; even those , that complyed with him . 10. it may be , for all this , you will replie , that these are but the opinions of a few particular men . what say you to that memorable convention at auspurg , where met all , or most of the learned , that endeavoured the reformation ? these were , at least , the whole reformation representative ; and melancton gives them that very title in his apologie . wherein he tels us , that e all the reformation did often professe in their meetings at auspurg , that they desired exceedingly , to f preserve that ecclesiasticall policie , which was settled by the cannons of the church : as also to continue those very degrees in the church , which were agreed upon by humane authority . these pious men desired not the subversion , but the reformation both of church and church-men . yea , g by protestation they cleer themselves to all porsterity , that it was neither their intent , nor fault , to overthow the order , or authority of bishops . melancthon therefore , in behalf of all his brethren , acknowledgeth , that h bishops have both potestatem ordinis , & potestatem jurisdictionis , power of order , and power of juridiction . and i beleeve , that these men had seriously considred of their protestation . 11. but what is this , that he calls power of order ? surely a power to do that , which presbyters could not do ; that is , a power at least , to ordain ministers . for i herein by calvins confession , was the difference between a presbyter and a bishop properly so called , in the opinion of the ancients , that a bishop hath power to ordain , but not a presbyter . indeed the resolution of the ancient church is this , k presbyterorum ordo non est potens generare patres ; the whole order of presbyters is not able to beget fathers , that is , presbyters for the church ; but bishops are able : the order therefore of bishops and presbyters is not one and the same . hence it follows , that there is a necessity of continuing bishops in the church , if so we desire presbyters ; since without a bishop no presbyter ; and without a presbyter ( at least ) no lords supper . 12 besides , your grand champion walo messalinus acknowledgeth , that l from the time that those orders and degrees were distinguished , and that a bishop became greater then a presbyter , ordination could not be common to them both . but those orders and degrees were from the beginning distinguished by our saviour , though not by these specificall titles observe , i beseech you . in the first place m he names the twelve , those of the higher order , apostles ; and after this , those of the lower order , the seventy , are called diciples , as i conceive , 3. luk : 10. 22. or else in the four evangelists they are distinguished from his other diciples by number onely , and not by title . in the other writings of the new testament they are distinguished into apostles and presbyteres , or bishops . n the apostles are of two sorts ; either such as were immediately ordained by christ , or such as were ordained by those apostles . the former are called the apostles of christ ; or o the holy apostles ; and sometimes p the chief apostles . the other are styled q apostoli vestri , and r apostoli ecclesiarum , your apostles , and the apostles of the churches ; because they had set cities , and a certaine people committed to their charge . the twelve were ordained by our saviour , while in the flesh he was conversant here on earth . but s. matthias , and s. paul , after his ascension were ſ called to be apostles by jesus christ and god the father . these did ordain , but not the seventy , not presbyters , or such as in scripture text are called bishops . s. paul and s. barnahas were apostles ; those we finde ordaining presbyters , act : 14. 23. and s. paul professeth , that he ordained timothy , 2 tim. 1. 6. 13. let us now descend to those apostles , who were ordained by christs apostles . such were s. iames , appollos , epaphroditus , timothy , and titus . none of these were immediately ordained by christ ; and yet they are called apostles . the three former plainly in scripture , as is heretofore evidenced ; t the latter by your good friend salmasius . that timothy & titus did ordain , is too plain to be denyed ; and u for epaphroditus we have an acknowledgement likewise from salmasius . 14. these offices were necessarily to be continued in the church ; for x christ gave them for the gathering together of the saints , for the work of the ministery , and for the edifying of the body of christ y till we all grow up unto a perfect man : which is now but in fieri , in polishing , not perfected , neither will it be , till the second comming of our lord and saviour jesus christ . for z the church is the body of christ , which will have her imperfections and blemishes , till she be made fully compleat in the kingdom of glory . our saviour therefore saith , a behold i am with you alwaies , even unto the end of the world : which could not be spoken of their persons , but of their office , b as is confessed by the london ministers : since their persons were shortly to leave this world ; but their office is to continue , till heaven and earth passe away . when therefore c s. paul had lively described the true government of the church , and instructed timothy the bishop of ephesus d how he ought to behave himself in the church , he charged him in the sight of god , and before jesus christ , that he keep these commands without spot , and unrebukeable , untill the appearing of our lord jesus christ . but this he could not do in his own person , which was shortly to depart ; calvin therefore readily acknowledgeth , that f these things were written not so much for timothy s as for other mens directions , that were to come after him ; since g herein ( as beza observes ) many particulars belong to the daily office of a pastor . these things then must be daily and duely done , as occasion requires : but diverse of these ought , and might be done by timothy onely , and by such as were of his ranke ; but by no other ; needs therefore must this order be continued for the edifying and perfecting of the body of christ . this office then being quotid●a●um munus an office of daily use , must of necessitie be continued in the church . 15. but what office was this , that timothy and titus did beare in the church ? let salmasius speake . h they at that time were mamed apostles , & revera erant episcopi jvre eodem et ordine , quo hodie habentur , qui ecclesiam regunt , & presbyteris praesunt , and indeed were bishops in the same right , and of the same order , whereof at this day those are accounted , who govern the church , and rule presbyters . but this very office was none of those , which were extraordinary , and to continue for a season onely , no , no , in beza's judgement it is quotidianum munus , an office of daily use ; of necessity therefore it must be perpetull in the church . and yet the duties of that office were such , i quibus sustinendis non alius quilibet ( e vulgo pastorum ) par fuisset , as none of the vulgar pastors , no ordinary presbyters , were meet to undertake . and what are these ? k even to redresse , what is amisse , and to ordain presbyters . these are matters of moment , and require more then ordinary discretion . l for this cause s. paul left titus at creete ; and for this very end m he sent epaphroditus to philippi , though at that time there were in that citie many bishops . phil. 1. 1. if then there needed no ordination , but every man without orders might have discharged presbyteriall duties ; or if the presbyter-bishops of that citie might have set that church in order , and therein ordaine presbyters , why did s. paul send epaphroditus to philippi , to do those things , which might either have been left undone , or at least have been done as well without him . surely s. paul imposeth not needlesse businesses upon any . 16. bishops there were ( you will say ) before in that church ; if then it belong to the episcopall order to ordain , and reforme in the church , what is amisse , why was epaphroditus sent thither ? take notice ( i beseech you ) that those bishops were but presbyters , or presbyter . bishops ; n which order never had the power either of ordination or jurisdiction . s. paul therefore sends unto them , epaphroditus an apostle-bishop , who could performe both . this you see acknowledged by your most able and subtill advocate . 17. well , let it be , what it will , lawfull or unlawfull , t is all one , in this exigent or distresse that his majestie is put to , o notwithstanding that his oath the king ( say you ) without impeachment , may in this circumstance , consent to the abrogation of episcopacy . his majesties oath now falls in question ; and i shall be willing fairely and calmely to consider , wherein , and how far forth a christian king is bound to keepe , or breake his oath . chap. vi. whether the king , without impeachment to his oath at coronation , may consent to the abrogation of episcopacy . 1. this question hath two branches . the first , whether a christian king be bound to keep his oath . the second , whether he may notwithstanding his oath , consent to the abrogation of episcopacy . his majesties coronation deserves also to be looked upon ; since an oath deliberately and solemnly taken , deserves the more seriously to be thought on ; and will draw from god the heavier doome , if despised , or slighted . 2. by your own confession it is evident , that p an oath against christs institution is vin●u um iniquitatis , an impious oath , and ought not to be observed ; but to be cut off with shame and sorrow ; since q all bonds to sin is frustrate confesse we must , that an oath against god revealed will or honour , is a bond to sin ; and therefore no sooner made then void , and to be abhorred such is your covenant against episcopacy . and had the king either through misunderstanding , ill advice or fear taken that irreligious covenant , he had been obliged , by your confession , to have made it frustrate ; since it is a bond to sin , because it is against christs word and instituition , as is manifested c. 2. & 4. 3. but r an oath taken in truth , and righteousnesse , and judgement , because it is of such things , as may justly and lawfully be performed , yea because god approves & ratifies this oath , is vinculum aequitatis & necessitatis , such a bond as equity and conscience bind us necessarily to performe , to the utmost of our power . but such is his majesties oath at coronation concerning the church , the spouse of christ . 4. no unrighteousnesse can ye shew in it , the lawfulnesse of episcopacy , as also their just right to govern presbyters , is sufficiently justified c. 4. no untruth ; for our soveraigne hath sworn to maintaine an ordinance of truth , of christ himself . and sub paenâ judicij , upon paine of judgment he is bound to make good this his oath , so justly taken , least he fall into the hands of god , and so into eternall judgement . ſ for justice requires , that every man , much more a christian , and a king , keep his oath made upon such grounds , t though it be with hazard both of crown , and life , and all that may be indangered upon earth . 5. consider , i beseech you , how u in an oath we call god to record ; and we make him not onely our witnesse , but our suretie , that we will , with his blessing , performe , what we have vowed , or sworne in his name . and not onely so , but we call upon him to be our judge , and the revenger of our perfidiousnesse , if so we wittingly depart from this oath . with what face then can we fall back , and wilfully incurre perjury ? is not this as philo judaeus hath it , to x make god a shelter for our wickednesse , and to cast our sin upon him ? that so to the infamie of christian religion , we may ●oder up a faire repute before men . is not this to cast aside not onely a fore-head , but all conscience , and the fear of god ? oh , ( saith s. austin ) y what blindnesse can equall this , to hunt after a little vaine glory by deceiveing man , while in thy heart thou sleightest god the searcher of all secrets ? as if his error , who thinks thee good , were comparable with thine , who seekest to please man with a show of good , whilest thou displealest god with that , which is truly naught . 6. but this is no new thing to you , that have dispenced so long , so often , so variously with so many oaths of supremacie , allegeance , and canonicall obedience : that have done so many strange acts , contrarie to your faith , and subscription . take heed in time , lest not onely your oaths , but your own hand-writing arise in judgement against you , for casting off the book of ordination ; for renouncing the booke of common-prayer ; for disclaiming the articles of the church of england , with those three creeds , the glory and hope of all good christians . thus you , and your brethren , are become apostata's and renegadoes to all religion and piety ; gracelesse , faithlesse , perjured men . god of his mercy give you a sence of these sins , that so you may in time repent , and make some satisfaction to the church of christ , by an open confession , and by a full detestation of those presumptuous and crying sins . 7. this oath his majestie took solemnly before god , in the house of god , in the presence of the nobility , and clergie , and a multitude of his leige people . and shall not all these oblige him so much the more to be tender of this oath ? zanchius tels us , that z it is a more grievous sin to offend against a publick solemne oath , then against one made in private . what may we then think of an oath taken with such high solemnity ? 8. this oath was voluntarily , freely taken , without compulsion , or perswasion ; so no excuse that way . indeed it was taken a in truth , in judgement , and in righteousnesse . in truth , his sacred majesty resolving truly to keep it : in judgement , judiciously , upon mature deliberation ; and in righteousnesse ; intending that every branch of this oath should be justly and righteously observed in all his courts of justice . how then can he infringe this oath ? 9. he made this promiss●ry oath to a great body of this his kingdome , the whole clergie of this land ; and those not the meanest of his subjects . and not onely so , but to holy church his mother , and to god the father of us all . how can he then disclaime this oath ? which so obligeth his conscience before god. that b ●ad he bound himself by such a tye to high-way robbers , or to his professed ●nemies , he had been bound by the law both of nations and christianity , strictly to haue observed it without fraud or coven . talke not of a dispensation . nor life , nor death , nor principalities , nor powers , whether civill or spirituall , can possibly discharge him of this oath ; no more then they can me of my oath of allegiance . and yet it is a point of your religion to perswade to perjurie ; as if it would ease your consciences , to have millions concurre with you in the same perfidiousnesse and end . 10. is perjurie a sin , or no sin ? if it be a sin , and an heinous sin , c how then can i commit this great wickednesse , and sin against god ? is it no sin ? if you be of that mind , speake out , shew your self in your true colours . what religion are you of , i know not well ; little use hath your conscience made of religion in this case . your eye is wholly upon the parliament , and the present necessity , those members have wrought our good king and this whole nation . necessity hath so far prevailed with you , as rather to be forsworne , then to forgo your present maintenance . but our most gracious soveraigne , whom god ever blesse , hath wholly fixed his heart upon god , and his word , wherein we are charged d , not to sweare falsely by the name of the lord ; no , e nor to forsweare our selves , but to performe our oaths unto the lord. marke ; though the oath be made to the servant , it must be performed unto the lord ; because the caution is given to the servant in the lords behalfe ; yea upon the lords credit ; for by his name , and upon his book we sweare to do it . and if we do it not , f the lord will not hold us guiltlesse . minus dicitur , plus intelligitur ; by this one word much may be understood ; for g the lord will come against us in judgement , and call us to an account for our oaths . h oaths therefore must be avoided , lest we fall into condemnation . for perjurie is a foule , a dangerous , a damnable sin . i odious it is to god , because , k it defiles his most holy name . l for this very sinne the land mournes ; i beseech god , it become not disolate . sure i am , m a curse will enter into his house , that sweareth falsely ; it will settle there , till it have consumed the timber and stones thereof . or as the wise man hath it , n his house shall be full of calamities , and the plague shall never depart from it . let zedekiah be our evidence . o he took the oath of allegiance to nebuchadnezzar ; but slighted it , and rebelled against that his soveraign lord , who had so highly honoured him , and trusted him with a kingdom . but what became of him ? p the caldees came , besieged jerusalem , conquer'd it , took zedekiah prisoner , and slew his sons before his eyes . this done , they put out his eyes , and in fetters carried him captive to babylon . here was an end of the kings of that land , descended from the tribe of judah . are not here the timber and stones of his house , his strong men , and the sons of his loins utterly consumed ? 11. think not to excuse your selves or any other , by some later covenant ; this will not serve the turn . was the first sworn in truth , and judgement , and righteousnesse ? or was it not ? doth it truly and justly agree with the word of god ; at least , not contradict it ? if so , thou art bound in justice to observe it , lest judgement fall upon thee . for this is a true rule , if zanchius mis-guide us not , q posteriores promissiones , etiam juramento firmatae , nihil de prioribus detrahere , aut imminuere possunt : later aths cannot possibly make the former of no , or lesse validitie . why then do you perswade the king to break his oath ? he that enticeth a man to perjurie , under pretence of pietie and religion , r what doth he else but affirm , that some perjuries are lawfull . which is as much to say , as some sins are lawfull . which is naught else , but to conclude , that some things are just , which are unjust . i appeal to men of understanding , whether this proposition savours of pietie , or discretion . think not then to ensnare prudent and conscientious men , with such frivolous and senslesse pretences ; which favour strongly of absurditie , if not of atheisme . chap. viii . whether the king may desert episcopacy without perjury . 1. give me leave to passe over a few pages , and to take that into consideration , which follows next in reason , though not according to your method . we are now fallen upon a strange question , too high to be proposed by any subject . but you have enforced me to make that a question , which is harsh to loyall ears , lest i may seem to avoid your subtill and sawcie cavils , as unanswerable . for do not you say ▪ that your second ant●gonist plainly ●ffi●ms , that the king cannot desert episcopacy without flat perjury ? his words are far more mannerly : but i am bound to trace your steps ; and shall , with gods assistance , manifest , that his majestie without violation to his oath , and to religion , may not desert episcopacy , and leave it naked to the subtill fox , or the mercilesse swine . 2. first , according to your own confession , his sacred majestie hath sworn to almighty god , in his holy place , before a solemn assembly , to t protect the bishops , and their priviledges to his power , as every good king in his kingdom in right ought to protect and defend the bishops , and churches under their government . 1. good kings protect bishops ; and good they are in doing so ; there is no evill then in protecting bishops . 2. they ought to do it : it is therefore their duty ; and to fail of this their duty , when they may choose , is sin . 3. in right they ought to do it : they do wrong therefore , if they do it not . this right is grounded upon scripture ; for god saith , u erunt reges nutritii tui , kings shall be nursing fathers , and queens shall be nursing mothers to the church . who then dares say , they ought not , or shall not ? 3. besides , what is done in right is injurious to no man ; since jus and injuria , right and wrong cannot consist in the same action , under the same consideration . and yet no right is done , but it is displeasing to the adverse partie . god did right in protecting moses and aaron , against korah , and his confederates . he did right in destroying those factious and rebellious persons ; and yet x this was displeasing to all the congregation of the children of israel . and shall god or the king forbear to do right , because the multitude murmure at it ? this be far from the lord and his vicegerent . a judge is sworn to do right . if then he do not right to the utmost of his understanding , he is perjured . and the more eminent a man is in place , the greater the sin . you know , to whom it was said , y because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the lord to blaspheme , the childe that is born unto thee , shall surely dye . and of jer●boam it was said , z go , tell him , thus saith th● lord god of israel ; for as much as i ex●●ted the fr●m ●m●●g the people , and made thee prince over my people israel : and yet th●● hast done evill above all that were before thee , and hast cas● me behind thy 〈…〉 ▪ therefore behold , i will bring evill upon the house of jeroboam ▪ &c. 4. secondly , the king hath sworn to be the protect●r and defender of the churches under his government : and this , you will confesse , the king ought to do . but the king doth not protect the church , unlesse he protect the bishops ; since without bishops the church must needs crumble away , and come to nothing . the bishop is the ministeriall spouse of the church : how then can the church be protected , if her husband be taken from her , or stripped of his means ? just as our wives are maintained with the fift part . fed with an ordinance , with words ; but where 's the fift part ? which of our wives have had that justly payed them ? 5. the bishop is , under christ , the father of the church . destroy the father , and how shall the children be provided for ? nay who shall beget children of the church , when she is void of an husband ? and the bishop is the onely husband of the church ; a take ●way the bishop , and the church is a widow ; if you will beleeve the councell of chalcedon . b i have heretofore manifested , that none but a bishop can ordain either priest or deacon . and zanchius determines , that c the church may not want ministers , who are to administer these externall things , the word and sacraments . remove the ministers that have this power derived unto them from christ , and the sacraments must fail , and consequently the church . for what d is the church , but a congregation of christians , wherein the pure word of god is preached , and the sacraments duly administred , according to christs ordinance . but , according to christs ordinance , none may administer the word and sacraments but bishops , priests , and deacons . take these away , and what becomes of the sacraments ? take away baptisme , and according to gods ordinary and revealed way , we cannot become christians , e we cannot be born anew of water , and of the holy ghost . and when we are become christians , take away that food of life , the lords supper , and we must needs famish : for f unlesse we eat the flesh of the son of man , and drink his blood ( in that blessed sacrament ) we have no life in us . hence is that of calvin : g the light and heat of the sun , meat and drink are not so necessary for the cherishing and sustaining this present life , as the apostolicall and p●storall office is for the preservation of the church on earth . if then it be proved , that bishops properly and strictly so called , be of the same office and order with the apostles , then have we calvins acknowledgement , that the church cannot subsist without bishops . 6. indeed it cannot , if we beleeve s. cyprian ; for he saith , that h we ought to know episcopum in ecclesia esse , & ecclesiam in episcopo ; that the bishop is in the church , and the church in the bishop : it stands and fals with him . what then becomes of that church , where there is no bishop ? i si qui cum episcopo non sint , in ecclesia non esse . we must also know ( saith that blessed martyr ) that they , which are not with the bishop , are out of the church . thus the bishop is in the church causaliter , causally ; but the church in the bishop virtually . the fountain is in the brook causally ; and the brook in the fountain virtually ; because from the fountain the rives derives his being , from thence it is derived and fed . damne up the fountain , or divert his course , and what becomes of the river ? thus is it between the bishop and the church . hence i infer , that the matter of the oath is lawfull : i conclude therefore , with the author of the review , that k his majestie is bound in religion and conscience to protect the bishops with their churches , and priviledges . unlesse it be so , that you can bring him a new christ , who will ordain another way to heaven . 7. but , say you , ▪ it is a ground laid down by this author , that no oath is obligatory beyond the intention of it . that is , according to the common , plain , and literall meaning thereof , otherwise we know no intention of an oath . we must therefore look back to the intention of the first framers thereof , as also to the good and securitie of those , to whom , and for whose sake , it is tak●n . n. that m the intention of this oath , and the framers thereof , is against a tyramous invasion on the rights of the clergie ; as also to protect them against violence , no question at all is to be made ; and you do well to acknowledge it . so far then the king is to protect them to the utmost of his power . and hitherto , by the assistance of god , he hath done it : and my trus● is in jesus christ , that he will strengthen our good king to live and dye in this pious and princely resolution . 8. this oath is to the clergie ; the king then must have an eye upon them , and their intention , who so humbly begge his protection , and to whom he makes this oath . n expectationem enim eorum , quibus juratur , quisquis decipit , non potest esse non perjurus : for he that deceives their expectation , to whom he swears , cannot but be perjured . this s. austin proves at large in the preceding epistle ; wherein o he wonders , that any man should be of such an opinion , as to conceive , that a man might incur certain perjurie , to avoid uncertain danger , losse or death . it is a rule therfore in the canon law , p quacunque arte verborum quis juret , deus tamen , qui conscientiae testis est , ita hoc accipit , sicut ille , cui juratur , intelligit . what art soever a man use in the words of his oath , god who is witnesse of the conscience , takes the oath in that very sense , wherein the party takes it , to whom we swear . otherwise we shall not onely deceive others , but we shall cheat our selves into equivocation , wherewith of late we have so justly charged the jesuites ; and for which the fathers most deservedly heretofore condemned q the helcheseites , r valentinians , ſ priscillianites , and t the followers of origen . truly , i am much afraid , we are fallen into such times , as roger hoveden complains of under k. steven ; u wherein it was accounted a noble act to lye , and forswear ; and a manly deed to betray their lords and masters . 9. and is not this , which is wrought against the clergie , a tyrannous invasion ? what law is there to countenance , what of late yeares hath been done against us ? where is the orderly alteration , you speak of ? hath not all been done by tumults , and insurrections ? have not divers of the peers been assaulted , and many of the commons vilified , and terrified by a seditious faction , that so they might bring them to their own bend ? how many have been inforced to flye with all secrecy from westminster , because they would not passe their vo●es against law and conscience ? was it orderly to frame petitions at westminster , against the bishops and orthodox clergie , and then to gleane hands in the countrey from factious spirits , to your own petitions ? was this an orderly alteration , without any pretence of law , to deprive us of our freeholds , to plunder our houses , to imprison our persons ; and to thrust into our benefices men with unwashed hands , felt-makers , blacksmiths , taylors , and i know not whom ? and yet all this hath been done by our great masters in israel . 10. by your own confession , the king hath taken an oath to protect the clergie and their rights against violence , and a tyrannous invasion . but how shall he protect us , that is not able to secure himself ? this , it seems , was his dutie , and with gods assistance in his power , when his sacred majestie took the oath . his duty still it is , though he be robbed of his power . and when god shall restore him to his power , he is bound to discharge this dutie . for you confesse , that x his majestie is ingaged to his power to protect the bishops and their priviledges . and if he breake this solemne oath , in his own person , with what conscience can he punish perjurie in others ? 11. an orderly alteration , or legall waies of change , who condemnes ? but we justly complaine , that no such alteration hath been endeavoured . for that is not orderly , which is illegall : neither can that be imagined rationall , which is wrought by violence , or forced upon a king. he is to be ruled by the word of god , and right reason , y which is the life of the law ; not to be over-awed , or over-swayed by a faction . 12. that z it is rationall for a king to undertake , to protect the clergie against violence , you acknowledge ; and it is no more then all the kings ministers are bound in conscience to performe , the king hath done it , blessed be god , to the utmost of his power . whether the kings officers , and those he hath put in trust , have done their dutie , wi 〈…〉 be answered for at an higher barre . in right reason the oath should have no other sense . th●● sense then it hath ; and we desire that sense may be made good by parliament , and we restored to our free-holds , according to reason , and law ; and satisfaction made us for our losses , ●nd illegall imprisonment , ●ill an orderly and legall change be made . chap. viii . whether the kings oath taken to the clergie , be injurious to his other subjects , and inconsistent with his oath to the people . 1. you object , and we confesse , that a this oath to the clergie , must not be intended in a sense , inconsistent with the kings oath to the people ? how ? inconsistent with the kings oath to the people ? what ? all blind but mr. iohn geree , and his confederacy ? king and subject , preist , and people , composers , approvers , takers , all dimme-sighted ? how came you to spie this foule mistake ? surely this is one of your new lights ; for both these oaths as you please to call them , have happily stood , and may long stand together . there was a time , when the devill had found a device , to set god and caesar at odds : but our saviour set them to rights ; b give ( saith he ) unto caesar what belongs to caesar , and to god , what belongs unto god. that difference being reconciled , that arch enemie of man , hath found out a late device , to raise a quarell between clergie and people , as if the liberties of the one could not consist with the rights of the other . but we have learned of our blessed master to set these also at one , and beseech his majestie , to give unto the people what belongs to the people , and to the clergie , what belongs to the clergie . we desire nothing , that is theirs ; and we are certaine , that no good man will repine , at what is iustly gods , or ours . 2. it is gods command to c give every man his due . and if any law be made contrary to this , it is no law. the reason is , because d all power i● from god , and under god. e that law then , that god hath made , man may neither abrogate , nor alter ; it is onely in the lords breast to do it . indeed what is settled by man , may be changed , or abolished by man. but man must be carefull , that the law be just . f lex enim non obligat subditos , in foro conscientiae , nisi s●t justa : no law binds a subject in case of conscience , unlesse it be just . indeed it bind● them not to performance , but to submission . though they be not bound to performe , what is injoyned ; yet must they submit , to what shall be inflicted ; since resistance is damnable . ro. 13. 2. 3. since then it is onely the just law that binds us to obedience , it will not be a misse to set down , what laws are just , and what not . g that a law be just ( saith thomas ) three ingredients are requisite : first , power in the law-maker ; 2ly . the end , that it be for the common good ; and 3ly . the forme ; namely , that all burthens and taxes be equally , evenly layed upon the subjects ; not more upon one then upon another , but proportionably upon every man according to his estate . laws so qualified , are just , because impartiall . 4. from hence we may safely conclude , that h those laws are unjust , where , in the first place , the imposer wants authoritie . 2ly . when burdens are imposed , that are not for the common good , but for private interest , gaine , or glory . 3ly . when taxes , or subsidies , though for the publick good , be unequally layed . or , in the last place , when laws contradict gods written word : for i all laws ought to be so framed , vt illis , quos tangunt , prosint , & nemini praesertim notabile afferant n●cumentum : that they may be commodious for those , whom they concerne , and yet not be evidently injurious to others . from these or the like grounds , i find it resolved by the sages of this kingdom , that k the king may grant priviledges to any corporation , so they be not prejudiciall to some other of his subjects . 5. but wherein is the kings oath to the clergie , inconsistent with his oath to the people ? because his majestie hath first ( say you ) taken an oath for the protection of the people in their laws and liberties . their laws ? the peoples laws ? who made them makers ▪ or masters of the laws ? do the people use to make laws in a monarchie ? behold , all are law-makers . who then shall obey ? none but the clergie ▪ thus the clergie must obey the people ; and if obey , then please . for whom we obey , them we must please . and yet there is much danger in pleasing the people : for l if i should please men , ( that is , the common people ) i were not the servant of christ . the plain truth is , the laws are the kings laws , so we call them , and so they are ; and his subjects must observe them . otherwise m he beareth not the sword in vaine . the liberties indeed are the peoples , granted and confirmed unto them by the soveraignes of this realme . but wherein n will the latter oath be a present breach of the former and so unlawfull ? one would think , here were some great wrong offered to the people , as if some immunities , or means were taken from them , and transferred upon the clergie by this oath . but when all comes to all , it is no more then this , that o one of the priviledges of the people is , that the peers and commons in parliament , have power , with the consent of the king , to alter what ever in any particular estate is inconvenient to the whole . i had thought , that this priviledge , you speake of , had not been a priviledge of the people , but of the parliament , that is , of the peers and commons , representees of the people met in a lawfull and free parliament with the kings consent . not of the representees of the people alone . but you would faine incense the people a new against us , under a pretence , that all is for their good , and for the maintenance of their priviledges ; because they are represented by the house of commons . whereas the truth is , you endeavour to devolve al upon that house , for the erection of p●ssbytery ; that so both church and state may be democraticall , both settled under a popular government . 6. let us take a view of this passage , and see what truth is in it . one of the priviledges of the people is , say you , that the peers and commons in parliament have power to alter what-ever is inconvenient . how the lords will take this , i know not , though of late they have been so passive . can they endure , that their power should be onely derivative , and that from the people ? your words are plain ; one of the priviledges of the people is , that the peers have power . as if the lords had no power in parliament , but what issued from the peoples priviledges . why then are they called peers ; when they are not so much as peers to the people , but their substitutes , if not servants ? surely you lay the lords very lowe . and if it be one of the peoples priviledges that the lords have power ; then is it also one of their priviledges , that the lords have no power , that the people may take it from them , when they please . cuius est instituere , ejus est & destituere ; they that can give power , can also take it away , if they see good . this of late hath been usually vaunted against the house of commons ; and you say as much to the house of peers . whereas the peoples priviledges are but severall grants of the kings of this land , proceeding meerly from their grace and favour . alas , the people hath not so much as a vote in the election of peers ; neither have they liberty to choose members for the house of commons ; no , not so much as to meet , for any such purpose , untill they be summoned by the kings writ . so the peoples priviledges depends upon the kings summons ; no such priviledge till then . 7. and whereas you say , that the peers and commons have power to alter , what-ever is inconvenient ; you are much mistaken . when by the kings summons they are met in parliament , they have power to treat and consult upon alterations , as also to present them to his majestie , and to petition for such alterations , where they see just cause . but they have no power to alter : that is in the king ; or else , why do they petition him so to this day , to make such changes good , as they contrive ? hoc est testimonium regiae potestatis , vbique obstinentis principatum . this a full testimonie of the kings power in all causes , and over all persons , that the lords & commons assembled in parliament are faine to petition for his royall consent and confirmation , before they can induce an alteration . the truth is , the power of making laws is in him , that gives life to the law , that enacts it to be a law : not in them , that advise it , or petition for it . p where the word of a king is , there is power ; it is his word , le roy le v●lt , that makes it a law ; then t is a law , and not before . no power makes it a law but his . for q he doth , whatsoever pleaseth him . when it pleaseth him ; not when it pleaseth them : many times therefore he rejects bills agreed by both houses , with his roy ne veult , the king will not have them to be lawes . the reason is given by that renowned justice jenkins ; because r the law makes the king the onely judge of the bills proposed . ſ i counsell thee therefore to keep the kings commandment ( or , to take heed to the mouth of the king ) and that in regard of the oath of god. t that is ( saith the geneva note ) that thou obey the king , and keep the oath , that thou hast made for the same cause . this is agreeable to scripture . and the wisest of this kingdome not long since acknowledged , that u without the royall consent , a law can neither be complete nor perfect , nor remaine to posterity . a law it is not , it binds not , till the king speak the word . yea the kingdom of scotland hath declared , that the power of making laws is as essentiall to kings , as to govern by law , and sway the scepter . declar. of the kingdome of scotland . p. 34. 8. but if this be the peoples priviledge , that the peers and commons in parliament have power with the consent of the king to alter , what is inconvenient : whose priviledge is it , i pray you , for the lords and commons , without the kings consent , to make alterations , and abrogations with root and branch ? this is no priviledge of the people , nor yet of the houses ; x because ( as justice jenkins observes ) it is against their oaths to alter the government for religion . for ( saith he ) every of them hath sworne in this parliament , that his majestie is the onely supreme governour in all causes ecclesiasticall , and over all persons 9. but what inconvenience , i pray you , ariseth to the people from the rights and priviledges of the clergy ? not tithes . no , say you , y that justifie them to be due to your precious presbyters , by divine right . not the bishops revenues . by no meanes ; z they must not come into any mans hands but yours ; who are the parochiall pastors ; these must be your maintenance . a to seize them to private or civill interest , is detestable sacriledge , cried out upon all the world over , and to be deplored of all good men . so you with your master beza . indeed to take them away from those , that are intrusted with them , would prove marvelous inconvenient to the people . 10. how many inconveniences will arise to the people of this kingdome , by stripping the clergie of their immunities , and lands , cannot suddenly be discovered . some of them i shal lay down , and leave the rest to be displayed by those , that are cleared fighted . first the curse , that is likely to fall upon this whole nation by sacriledge . for a nationall sin must have a nationall punishment . b admensuram delicti erit & plagarum modus ; according to the fault , and the measure thereof , the number of the stripes shall be . let it be considered , how from severall counties multitudes came in with petitions , for the exrirpation of episcopacy . by whose instigation the petitioners best know . think not to avoid the scourge , because multitudes conspired in the sin : c we must not follow a multitude to do evill . hope not to lye hid in a throng ; d be sure , thy sin will find thee out , as e it did achan among the thousands of israel . his nobility could not excuse him . remember that this was for sacriledge ; for f he stole two hundred shekels of silver , & a wedge of gold , g which were consecrated unto the lord. this is a dreadfull sinne , h it will lye at thy doore ; it will be a stone of offence to thee , at thy going forth , and thy coming in . 11. i know there are men of severall mindes met at westminster . some are wholly bent upon church lands , and are resolved to swallow them up , come what will come . others are content to covenant , vote , or do any thing to save their own stakes ; for to what purpose were it for them to withstand ? alas , they are but an handfull ; they may wrong themselves , but no good can they do to church , or king. but we forget the lords rule ; i thou shalt not speak in a cause , to decline after many , to wrest judgement . 12. some young gentlemen there are , that must plead ignorance in their votes , as being not acquainted with the state of the question ; much lesse with the mysterie of iniquitie , which worketh powerfully in the sons of disobedience . but they must know , that there be sins of ignorance ; for these there must be an attonement made by the preist , and without this , for ought i read , no forgivenesse . levit. 4. yea , saith the lord , k if a soule sin , and commit any of these things , which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the lord , though he wist it not , yet is be guiltie . and he shall beare his iniquitie , for l he hath certainly trespassed against the lord. but to bring it home a little neerer to these times , that are so violent for sacriledge , let all achans broode give eare to the words of the lord , m if any person transgresse , and sin through ignorance , by taking away things consecrated to the lord , he shall restore that , wherein he hath offended , in taking away of the holy thing , and shall put the fift part more thereto , and give it unto the preist . then n shall the preist make an attonement for him , not before ; then shall the sin be forgiven him , not before . here then remaines no excuse for any , that have the least hand in sacriledge , without restitution . but why do we o abhor idols , and commit sacriledge ? why rob we god , as if he were an idol , not sensible of these wrongs , nor able to revenge them ? 13. next , when the church is stripped of her means , what kinde of clergie shall we have ? p jeroboams priests ; the lowest , and meanest , of the people . for as now , so then , q the priests and levites followed their true liege lord. for that arch-rebell and his sons had cast them off from executing the priests office . this being done , r who would , might consecrate himself , and be one of the priests of the high places . like king , like priest ; each had alike right to their places . a lively character of our times . these are called the devils priests , 2 chron. 15. 11. men that wanted either the knowledge , or the fear of god , or both . and surely this is the ready way to fi●● our priests places with men void of learning , not ſ apt to teach , not t able by sound doctrine either to exhort , or to convince the gainsayers . now s. peter tells us , that u the unlearned and unstable ( ungrounded men ) wrest the scriptures to their own destruction . what then shall become of the people ? x if the blinde lead the blinde , both shall fall into the ditch . this will bring us to that passe , which bishop latymer speaks of , y we shall have nothing but a little english divinitie ; which will bring the realm into very barbarousnesse , and utter decay of learning . it is not that , i wis ( saith that good bishop ) that will keep out the supremacy of the bishop of rome . and this will be a strange dishonour to this nation , which hath alwayes abounded with learned men . 14. 3 hospitalitie will come to nothing ; 4 your rents will be racked ; and 5 your sons barred from one fair and most commendable course to preferment . for with us no one familie , or set persons are tyed to be priests , as was the tribe of levi. the qualification of the person , and not his pedegree , is with us inquired into . what understanding man then will freely dedicate his son to the ministerie , and be at an extraordinarie charge to breed him up to divinitie , when his reward shall be certain poverty ? and what scholer of worth will desire orders , when he knows , that by these he shall be exposed to contempt and beggary ? though we love the priesthood , when we are miserable in it ; yet no man affects the priesthood , that he may be miserable . i know many , since our coat is grown so contemptible , who intended divinitie , that have diverted their studie to physick ; knowing that this nation is carefull of their bodies , though carelesse of their souls . 15. is it not enough by this extirpation to barre your selves from heaven , unlesse ye sink your posteritie into the same damnation ? is it not enough to murder priests , unlesse ye slay the priestood also ? certainly ye run the readie way to do it . if ye will not beleeve bishop latymer , because a priest ; yet trust sir edward coke , because a lawyer and a states-man . this great learned man assures us , that z it is a more grievous and dangerous persecution to destroy the priesthood , then the priests . for by robbing the church , and spoyling spirituall persons of their revenues , in short time insues great ignorance of true religion , and of the service of god ; and thereby great decay of christian profession . for none will apply themselves , or their sons , or any other they have in charge , to the study of divinitie , when after long and painfull studie they shall have nothing whereupon to live . will not our church then come to a sweet passe ? and yet to this passe we are almost brought . 16. all the inconvenience , that mr. geree presseth , is this , that a we are not subject to the parliament , to be whipped and stripped as they please . if we be not subject to them , i am sure they have made us so . but how far forth , and wherein we are subject to the parliament , and what parliament , shall speedily be taken into consideration . chap. 9. 17. you speak much of b a former and a latter oath ; the former to the people , the latter to the clergy . as if his majestie took two severall oaths , at two severall times . whereas in truth it is but one oath , c as you acknowledge p. 1. taken at the same time , and , as it were in a breath . indeed there are severall priviledges proposed to the king , which he first promiseth , and afterwards swears to maintain . as for the promise , it is first made in grosse to the people of england ; & afterwards to the severall states of this realm ; but first to the clergie by name . in generall to the people of england , the king promiseth to keep the laws and customs to them granted by his lawful and religious predecessors . under this word people are comprehended the nobilitie , clergie , and commons of this kingdom . afterwards distinguishing them into severall ranks , he begins with the clergie , promising that he will keep to them the laws , customes , and franchizes granted to them by the glorious king s. edward his predecess●● . secondly , he promiseth to keep peace and godly agreement entirely , to his power , both to god , the holy church , the clergie , and the people . here also , you see , his promise to the church , and clergie , goes before that to the people . in the third branch his majestie promiseth to his power to cause law , justice ▪ and discretion in mercy and truth to be executed in all his judgements , to all before named . next he grants to h●ld and keep to the comminalty of this his kingdom , the laws , and rightfull customes , which they have to the honour of god [ mark that ] so much as in him lyeth . the commonalty , you see , are not mentioned , till we come to the fourth clause . and last of all , lest the bishops , though implied in church and clergie , should seem to be omitted , and an evasion left to some malignant spirits , to work their ruine , and yet seem to continue a clergie ; the king promiseth to the bishops in particular , that he will preserve and maintain to them all canonicall priviledges , and due law and justice ; and that he will be their protector and defender . how then can he desert them , or leave them out of his protection ? 18. these promises made , the king ariseth , is led to the communion table , where laying his hand upon the holy evangelists , he makes this solemne oath in the sight of all the people : the things , that i have promised , i shall perform and keep ; so help m● god , and the contents of this book . though then the promises be severall , the oath is but one : and so no former , no latter oath ; not two , but one oath . d the kings oath to the people is not first taken ; but you are wholly mistaken . 19. if any man desire to know , who the people and commonalty of this kingdom are , let him look into magna charta ; where he shall find them marshalled into severall estates , corporations , and conditions . there you shall also see the severall laws ▪ customes , and franchizes , which the king and his religious predecessors have from time to time promised , and sworn ▪ to keep and maintain . that great charter begins with the church ; e inprimis concessimus deo : first , we have granted to god , and by this our present charter have confirmed , f in behalf of our selves and our heirs for ever , that the church of england be free , and that she have her rights entire , and her liberties unmaimed . now sir edw : coke , that oracle of the law , tels us , that g this charter for the most part is but declaratory of the ancient common laws of england : to the observation wherof the king was bound and sworn . and not onely the king , but h the nobles and great officers were to be sworn to the observation of magna charta : i which is confirmed by thirtie and two acts of parliament . 20. the liberties of this church , as i have gleaned them from magna charta , and sir edw : coke are these . first , that k the possessions and goods of ecclesiasticall persons be freed from all unjust exactions and oppressions . secondly , that l no ecclesiasticall person be amerced ( or fined ) according to the value of his ecclesiasticall benefice , but according to his lay tenement , and according to the quantitie of his ●ffence . thirdly , that m the king will neither sell , nor to farm set , nor take any thing from the demeans of the church in the vacancie . fourthly , that n all ecclesiasticall persons shall enjoy all their lawfull jurisdictions , and other rights wholly without any diminution or subtraction whatsoever . fiftly , o a bishop is regularly the kings immediate officer to the kings court of justice in causes ecclesiasticall . sixtly , p it is a maxime of the common law , that where the right is spirituall , and the remedy therefore onely by the ecclesiasticall law , the conusans thereof doth appertain to the ecclesiasticall court. seventhly , q sir edw : coke tels us from bracton , that r no other but the king can demand ( or command ) the bishop to make inquisition . eightly , ſ every archbishoprick and bishoprick in england are holden of the king per baroniam ( by baronry ) . and in this right they that were called by writ to the parliament , were lords of parliament . t and every one of these , when any parliament is to be holden , ought ex debito justitiae ( by due of justice ) to have a writ of summons . and this is as much as any temporall lord can chalenge . the conclusion of all is this , that u neither the king , nor his heirs ( or successors ) will ever endeavour to infringe or weaken these liberties . and if this shall be done by any other , nihil valeat , & pro nullo habeatur , let it be of no force , and passe for nothing . hence x it is provided by act of parliament , that if any judgement be given contrary to any of the points of the great charter , by the justices , or by any other of the kings ministers whatsoever , it shall be undone , and holden for nought . let all true hearted englishmen observe this , that are lovers of their countreys liberties . 21. we have seen , what the king hath granted & sworn , as also in what order ; and that the oath is but one . and yet mr. geree goes forward , as if it were certain without question , that this to the clergie , were a severall oath from that to the people . confidently therefore he presseth it , that y the king cannot afterwards ingage himself . whereas he ingaged himself alike to his people at the same instant , that he would preserve the priviledges both of clergie and commonaltie , because both his people . now , why his majestie should be bound to maintain the priviledges of that one estate , rather then of the other ▪ i cannot conceive . especially when i consider , that z the priviledges of the clergie are granted to god ; without whose blessing nor privilege , nor people can be preserved . the king then herein non c●●sit jure suo , hath not yeelded up the clergie or his right to any other ; neither can he with a safe conscience do so . but since a magna charta hath been so often confirmed , even by 32. severall acts of parliament , the parliament , in that sense you take it , hath parted with that right it had , by these severall grants and confirmations : and we ought in justice to enjoy our priviledges , and they to maintain them ▪ unlesse they mean to affront and subvert so many acts of parliament , and that main charter and honour of this kingdom . as if they onely had the judgement of infa 〈…〉 ibilitie ; which scotland denies . declarat . of the kingdom of scotland , p. 19. chap. ix . how far forth , and wherein the clergie is subject to a parliament , and to what parliament . 1. the net is prepared , the snare layed , danger is at hand , and yet we must not forsake , or betray the truth in time of need . the noose layed by our church adversary , is this : b the clergie and their priviledges are subject to the parliament , or they are not . to this we must say , yea , or nay ; and the man thinks he hath us sure enough . but the man is mistaken , one mesh is not well made up ; and i must tell him that we are subject to the parliament , and we are not . subject we are to the parliament , consisting of head and members ; but not to the members without the head , not to the members alone ; since we are subject to the members meerly for the heads sake ; and in those things onely , wherein he subjects us to them . set apart the head , and we are fellow members , fellow subjects . for iowe no temporall subjection to any or many subjects , but onely for the kings sake . though the parliament be a great , a representative , an honourable body , yet it is but a body : and that body , with every member thereof , owe obedience and service to the head ; not one to another . i say nothing , if i prove it not by scripture . c submit your selves to every ordinance of man for the lords sake ; whether it be to the king as supreme ; or unto governors , as unto those that are sent by him , by the king. as if he should say , submit your selves to the king , for the lords sake ; and to other governors for the king● sake . for king● have their commission from god ; but all state governors from the king : and iowe them no subjection beyond their commission . if then it shall please the king to give the members of parliament power over us , we must submit either by doing , or suffering . either by doing , what they shall command , or by suffering , what shall be inflicted on us . 2. subjection is not due to them , as they are great , or rich men ; but as they are the kings ministers . this is evident , because d all commissions breath and expire with the king e upon death of the king follows necessarily the dissolution of parliament . none of us , that are meer subjects , have at such a time power one over another , but onely by advice ; none of us authority , but onely as this or that man hath gained esteem by his wisedome and integritie . onely the preisthood never dyes , because christ ever lives , from whom the preist hath his commission . but all other subordinate powers expect a new commission from the succeeding prince . this experience taught us upon the death of queen elizabeth . 3. though this be truth , yet no truth can charge us , that f we claime exemption from secular power . you see , we acknowledge our selves subject to the king , as also to those ministers , that he sets over us . but as these may not exceed their commissions given by the king ; neither may the king exceed his commission granted him by god. the kings commission is like the preists , g ad aedificationem , non ad destructionem , for upholding the church and service of god ; not for the ruining of either . and the king may not grant a larger commission to his ministers , then himselfe hath received from the king of heaven ▪ his commission is , to be h a nursing father to the church , not a step-father ; to i preserve to her all her rights and dues , to see , that she be provided with necessaries , and to protect her against her profaine and sacrilegious enemies . surely if our soveraigne hath intrusted the parliament with any power over the church and church-men , it is but with some part of that , wherewith god hath enriched him , and no other . 4. well , k if we be under parliamentary power , it cannot rationally be conceived , to be the meaning of the king so to subject us to the parliament , as to forget , or renounce his hath , by destroying the priviledges of the clergie ( which he hath swo●ne to preserve ) against ( or in dishonour to ) that power to which they are legally subject ▪ how far we are legally subject to this parliament , i know ; and how far we are ▪ or may be under parliamentary power , i have alreadie declared . the power we are legally subject to , is his royall majestie ; and it is not , it cannot be , the meaning of the kings oath , to preserve our priviledges against his own power ▪ or to exempt us from his iurisdiction . let the world judge , whether your , or our priviledges and principles be distructive of legall power . we are bound by canon l faithfully to keepe and observe , ( and as much as in us lieth ) to cause to be observed and kept of others , all and singular laws and statutes made for restoring to the crown of this kingdome , the ancient jurisdiction over the state ecclesiasticall , m against all usvrped and forraign power . marke that ; it is not onely against forraign , but it is against usurped , and all usurped power ▪ shew me , if you can , one such loyall canon or resolution from any presbyteriall assembly . n this jurisdiction ecclesiasticall is by the lawes and statutes restored to the imperiall crown of this realme , and not upon the parliament ; because it is by gods word settled upon the crowne . 5. o this authority in causes ecclesiasticall was in the godly kings amongst the jews , & christian emperors in the primitive church ; and hath been exercised by the kings of this realme , according to an act of parliament in that behalfe , an. 32. henr. 8. c. 36. according to this statute were the bishops and the rest of the clergie assembled b● king edward vi. and queene elizabeth for composing the articles of religion , which were allowed to be holden and executed within this realme , by the assent and consent of those princes ; and confirmed by the subscription of the arch-bishops & bishops of the upper house , and of the whole clergie in the neather house in their convocation . as is to be seen in the r●tification of those articles . agreeable to the same statute , the arch-bishops , bishops and other of the clergie were summoned & called by k. iames to treat of canons and constitutions ecclesiasticall ; which were by them agreed upon an. dom. 1603. and were by the same king of blessed memorie ratified and confirmed by his letters patents . and i am certaine , that we have subscribed and sworne , p that the kings majestie under god is the onely supreme governor of this realme , and of all other his highnes dominions and countries , as well in all spirituall , or ecclesiasticall things or causes , as temporall . 6. the substance of your touchie argument is , i hope , satisfied in the eye of every moderate and discreet man. the rest ▪ that follows is but a rhetoricall flourish , or reiteration of what passed before , as if q the kings oath to the clergie could not be consistent with the priviledges of the nation , formerly by him sworn to . as if , without peradventure , there were a former and a latter oath , which i have proved to be most false . and as if we of the clergie were none of the nation . or as if we were bastards , and not legitimate ; slaves , and not free-born subjects . and yet , blessed be god , diverse of our orthodox clergie are as well descended , as any that speake against them , is this , my good brother , to r reverence the preists , and count them holy ? is this the way to invite men of worth , to incorporate themselves into your presbyteriall hierarchie ? surely we are a part of this nation , to whom this promissory oath was made . our rights consisted comfortably many yeers with the priviledges of the people , to the honour of this nation , and to the astonishment of others . with what face then can you say , that the kings oath to the clergie cannot be consistent with the priviledges of the nation ? whereas it is evident , that in three or foure yeers this nation is so weary of the presbyteriall encrochments , that they can no longer possibly endure them . 7. but by your words it seems , ſ when and while the clergy were a distinct corporation from the laitie , the oath had this sense , viz. that the kings oath to the clergie was consistent with the priviledges of the nation ▪ that must be the sense , if i know what sense is . but the clergie were and are a distinct corporation . in ceasing to be popish , we are not ceased to be preists : neither is that necessary and just exemption , or distinction yet abolisht . if it be , why are you so zealous , to distinguish us and our privileges , from the people and their priviledges ? whereas if we be all one without distinction , our priviledges must needs be the very same ; and so no inconsistencie at all . but of this more fully chap. 11. 8. a popish exemption it was for the clergie to be free from the kings commands . but this is abolished , and we readily submit to every ordinance of man ; and wish , that you , and your assembly brethren would learn the same christian obedience . a popish exemption it is for the bishops and their churches to know no governor but the pope . that also is disclaimed , and at the kings coronation it is publickly acknowledged , that the bishops and their churches are under the kings government . the antichristian usurpation is condemned , and true christian subjection justified . the king is the ●nely supreme o vern●r , to him we owe obedience , and to others for him , and under him . and though all antichristian usurpation were abolish●d upon the death of queen mary , yet in all the acts since that time to this present parliament the lords spirituall are distinguished from the lords temporall , the clergy from the laity , and the convoc●tion from the parliament . yea even in these times of confusion , the clergie are doomed by your great masters , to be unfit for lay ▪ or civill imploiment ▪ if there be no such men , then was that sentence sencelesse : & while we are of the same corporation with them , we are as capable of any office of state , as the rest of our fellow-subjects , even to be members of both houses . but this distinction is still on foot ; the kings oath therefore to us is still binding ; especially since our immunities may as well subsist with the priviledges of the commons , as the priviledges of bristoll with the franchizes of london . 9. indeed you may well twit us with the change of our condition ; for we have just cause with bishop latymer to complain , that z there is a plain intent to make the clergie slavery : which was far from the intention of this oath , till your faction prevailed in the change . but what inconvenience will follow , if we confesse , that the intention of the oath was changed , with the change of our condition ? not that , which you aime at . for therein , and so far forth onely is the intention of the oath changed , as our condition is changed . but wherein is our condition changed ? a church we are still ; bishops and preists we are still ; onely our condition is thus far changed ▪ before we were subject to antichristian usurpation , but now we are altogether for christian allegiance . before our bishops and preists were subject to the pope ; but we submit wholly to the king. and i hope , we shall not fare the worse for that . the kings oath is , to protect the church , as it is , not as it was ; not as she was popish and superstitious , but as she is catholick and apostolike . then she was subject to the pope , and free from the king , but now she is subject to the king , and free from the pope . but you would faine enforce us to our old vomit ; for we cannot but discern , that a far more intollerable tyranny is drawing on , by how much the more dangerous it is to be subject to a multitude , then to one ; to a multitude at home , then to one abroad : both of them being equally destructive to the liberty of the church , and alike contrary to the word of god. 10. besides , the change of our condition is either for the better or the worse . if for the worse , this is to maintain popery . he that saith our condition is changed for the worse , justifies , that it is better for us to be subject to the pope , then to the king. if for the better , then must the intention of the oath be changed for the better . for are not these your words , that the change of the clergies condition must needs change the intention of the oath ? without question the intention of the oath was to protect all his subjects in their severall places , dignities , add degrees ; and not to suffer them to oppresse or devoure one another , to see justice done for them and upon them , according to the laws established ; and not to yeeld to any law , that may be distructive to the rights or liberties of any of his subjects . 11. the intention of the oath is , to maintain the ancient , legall , and just rights of the church ; and to preserve unto the bishops due law and justice . we desire no more , and no man may with reason deny this , to be the intention of the oath . the the words are plaine : sir , will you grant , and keep , and by your oath confirme the laws , customs , and franchizes granted to the clergie by the glorious king s. edward ▪ your predecessor , &c. and again ; our lord and king , we beseech you to pardon and grant , and preserve unto us , and to the churches committed to your charge , all canonicall priviledges , and due law and justice . all this the king hath sworne to performe ; and hath acknowledged , that by right he ought to do it . and would you have him to be forsworne , and to neglect that , which by right he ought to make good ? surely you would make an excellent ghostly father for the man of sin . 12. neither is this the peculiar opinion of us church-men onely ; that great oracle of the law resolves , that a the king is bound to maintain and defend the rights and inheritance of the church . and he gives two reasons for it ; first , because the church is alwaies in her minoritie , it is under age : seconly , she is in wardship to our lord the king. and then he addes , b nec est juri consonum , quod infra aetatem existentes , per negligentiam custodum svorum exhaeredationem patiantur , seu ab actione repellantur : neither is it consonant to the law ( nor yet to conscience ) , that those who are under age , should either be spoiled of their inheritance , or barred from action at law , through the negligence of their guardians . especially kings being by divine ordinance made guardians and nursing fathers to the church . es . 49. 23. 13. you see , we have divine and humane law for what we say , we claime no c priviledges long since by act of parliament abolisht . we desire not his majestie to contradict , but to ratifie bis oath , and to maintain those laws he found in force . but as for you , all your endeavour is to perswade the laity , that our weale is their woe , and that the upholding of the clergie in their due and ancient state , would be certain ruine to the commons . as if our priviledges were like d pharaohs lean kine , ready to devoure the fat of the laity : as if our aime were to reduce antichristian usurpation , & to subvert the ancient laws . whereas every man may readily discern , that these are but pretences . the true end aimed at in these invectives and incentives , is that the caninus appetitus the wilde ravenous stomachs of m. geree and his fellow presbyterians may be satisfied . but at seven yeers end they will be as lank and hungrie as pharaohs famished kine . it was so with king henry viii : and it will be so with all , that tread in his steps . 14. e it s apparent then to make the intention of that oath to be false and fallacious , and under pretence , that it may not be against legall alteration , so to wrest it , that it may be to the ruine of a great body of his subjects , and those not the worst ; that it shall be against all law and conscience , ( for f that law , which is unjust is no law ) : that it shall be to the subversion of the true religion and service of god , to the distraction of his people , and to the eternall dishonor of himself and the whole kingdome , makes his oath in your sense utterly unlawfull . and if unlawfull , then is it not obligatory either in foro conscienciae , or in foro justitiae , either before god , or any good man ; unlesse it be to do the contrary . but if this oath in the true and literall sense be not against legall alteration , but against unjust oppression , sacriledge , and profanenesse , manifest it is , that it is both lawfull and obligatory ; and the king may not , without violation of his oath , and certain danger of the pure and undefiled religion , passe a bill for the abolition of episcopacy , what ever his houses of parliament think , or petition , or presse never so violently . 15. but your opinion is , that the king may passe a bill , for the abolition of episcopacy . and what i thinke , or what the king thinks ; it is no matter if his houses of parliament think it convenient , he may do it . it is wonder , you had not said , he must do it . indeed you say that , which is equivalent ; for are not these your words ; g he cannot now deny consent ( to their abolition ) without sin ? and if the king without sin cannot deny it , then must he assent unto it . thus by your words it seemes , he is at their disposing , not they at his . indeed , if a man may beleeve you , the power is in the houses , and not in the king. for do not you say , that h the peers and commons in parliament have power , with the consent of the king , to alter whatsoever , &c. and againe ; i there 's no question of power in the parliament to over-rule it . the power , it seemes , is in them , consent onely in the king. and here , the king may passe a bill , when his houses think it convenient . well , he may , and he may choose ; he may consent , or dissent . k cujus enim est consentire , ejus est & dissentire . and so long we are well enough . for the kings negative in parliament is a full testimony of his supreme power . hence is it , that the houses petition for his consent , which they need not do , if the power were in the houses . besides , his houses , the kings houses , you call them ; and so they are . this also manifests , that they are at his disposing , and not he at theirs . they must therfore wait his pleasure , til he thinks it convenient . his consent they may petition for , enforce they ought not , since they are his subjects ; enforce it they cannot , since l he hath power over his own will. and whatever you suppose , it is in his power to consent , or dissent , when he sees it convenient ; and consequently to keep , or not to keep his oath . his affirmative makes it a law ; his negative denys it to be a law. for m the king is the onely judge , whether the bills agreed upon , and presented , be for the publick good , or no : and to take away the kings negative voice , is contrary to your covenant ; it diminisheth the kings just power and greatnesse ; and cuts off all regall power . witnesse the declaration of the kingdome of scotland . p. 18. chap. x. whether it be lawfull for the king , to abrogate the rights of the clergie . 1. the question proposed is concerning episcopacy ; but now you are fallen to the rights of the clergie . as if this were a sound and unanswerable argument , it is lawfull for the king to abrogate the rights of the clergy : ergo , it is lawfull for him to abrogate episcopacy . it is for all the world , as if one should say , it is lawfull for the king to take away the rights of lawyers ; ergo , he may also take away judicature . yet all men would say , that this were flat tyrannie ; since without judicature no man can compasse , or enjoy his own with peace . 2. but i shall return your argument so upon you , as shall concern you more neerly . it is lawfull for the king to abrogate the rights of the clergie : it is therefore lawfull for him to abrogate presbytery . how like you this ? is it not your own argument , changing terme episcopacy into presbytery . ye have strooke out the former & set up the latter in the place of episcopacy . and your scholers , by the same argument , may live to root up thut too , if any lands be annexed to this great diana of geneva . thus you have made a rod to scourge your selves with . 3. but you will say , that though it be legall for the king , to take away the rights , yet he may not destroy the order . and why so ? because the rights are granted by man , but the order was settled by god : and what god hath ordained , is not lawfull for man to abrogate . i must return you the same answer , since t is sufficiently justified . c. 4. 5. that the order of episcopacy is the immediate institution of our b. saviour , and ministeriall root , from whence all orders spring . though then this be n the usuall way of cleering this your assertion , and you o conceive it to be a sound resolution , yet learned men see , that you have said just nothing , unlesse you confesse , that the order of presbyter may likewise be ex●i●pated by royall authority . 4. but return we to the rights of the clergie , and take notice upon what grounds you suppose it lawfull for the king to abrogate those rights , which he hath vowed so solemnly to maintain . p the king ( say you ) is sworne to maintaine the laws of the land in force at his coronation . yet it is not unlawfull for him after to abrogate any of them , upon the motion , or with the consent of his parliament . i am glad that you acknowledge it to be the kings prerogative , to maintaine the laws of the land ; and that it is not unlawfull for him , to abrogate any of them with the consent of his parliament . if he be bound by oath , either he hath power to maintain these laws , or not . if he hath not power , it is a senselesse oath . if he hath power , where is it ? what is become of it ? hath he resigned it ? we know the contrary . hath he forfeited it ? to whom ? to his subjects ? he can no more forfeit his regall power to his subjects , then a father the right of fatherhood to his children . he is no more a king upon condition , then a father is a father upon condition . his power he hath not from the people , but from god. q per me reges regnant , by me kings reign , saith god. and , i hope , god speaks no untruth . his substitute the king is , for r he sits on gods ( not on the peoples ) throne ; and ſ king he is for the lord , in his stead . 5. if you object misdemeanours , or bearing armes against his parliament ; your self say , that t he is sworne to maintain the laws of the land. the laws , liberties , and properties were all at stake , they were trampled upon by his faithlesse , but potent subjects . this enforced him to take up u that sword , which he ought not to beare in vaine , but to x execute wrath as the minister of god , upon them that do evill ; upon such , as plunder his good subjects , and turn them out of house and home . for y the king is made by god the supreme governor , for the punishment of evill doers , as also for the praise of those , that do well . but suppose the king were a tyrant , as bad as bad may be , yet z we ought from our hearts to give him all due honour ; so beza ; and not to rob him of his just power . if he sin a it is against god onely ; and to him onely he must account ; not to his subjects . 6. well , bound he is by oath , b to maintain the laws , while they are laws . as yet then the rights of the church are safe , and the king is bound to maintain them . but how long are these laws in force ? c till they are abrogated by just power in a regular way . they are your own words , and we subscribe them . but the just power is in his majestie , by your own confession , both d to maintain , and to abrogate laws . and the regular way , say you , is at the motion , or with the consent of his parliament . but with all our loyall predecessors we say , at the petition , or humble suit [ not at the motion ] of his parliament . and his it is , his they are all , though members of parliament , since the parliament is his. they are not then a parliament of themselves , at their own choice , or disposing , nor yet without him . his they are ; i am sure , they should be so ; i would to god they were so . * the king is the fountain of honour and power within his own dominions . and e who may say unto him , what doest thou ? why doest thou honour this man , and not that ? why doest thou call a parliament at this time , and not at that ? f impius est , qui regi dixerit , inique agis : he is impious , that saith unto the king , thou dealest unjustly , or unequally . so the fathers read that place . no obbraiding , no controulling of a king ; g he can do no wrong . so the law. 7. his , the kings , they are , when they are met , and set in parliament , h his great councell , magnum concilium regis ; i his houses , k his parliament . and l therefore called so , that they may parlar la ment , speak their minds freely for the generall good . him they may entreat , not controul ; advise , not command ; perswade , not enforce . suppose , the king grants them power and authoritie , he grants them none either over , or against himself : this he cannot do . this were to set the members above the head , and to make his subjects superior to himself . this were to despoil himself of the power of the sword. but this he may not do , since m god hath made him supreme , and n given him the charge of the sword. and his majestie may not invert that order , which god hath set ; neither may he repeal gods ordinance , or make it void . god hath laid the charge upon him , and he cannot with a safe conscience decline it , or neglect it . 8. observe , i beseech you : o though pharaoh set joseph over his house , and over his people to rule and arm them at his pleasure : though joseph were so p made ruler over all the land of egypt , yet without him no man might lift up his hand or foot , within that land ; yet joseph is not king . q pharaoh keeps his throne ; and therein is he greater then joseph , who still is but pharaohs deputy , though r lord of all egypt . and though he be ſ a father to pharaoh , yet t is he still at his command . thus is it with the parliament of england ; though they are put in highest trust by the king , yet are they still at his disposing , either u to be adjourned , prorogued , or dissolved at his pleasure ; and are at his command in all things lawfull and honest . to this great councell we are no further to submit , then in those things they are sent for by the king , and so far forth as they have commission from him . s. peter saies the same . x submit your selves unto the king as supreme , or unto governors as unto them , that are sent by him , by the king. so far forth , and in such things , for which they are sent , i owe them obedience ; but no further . 9. how far forth the king is sworn to maintain the laws of the land , and upon what grounds they may safely be repealed , we have alreadie seen . now we are called upon to descend to the rights of the clergie ; whereof your resolution is this , by way of consequence . y so the king by his oath is bound to maintain the rights of the clergie , while they continue such . but , blessed be god , such they do continue : the king therefore by oath is bound to maintain them . 10. z but ( say you ) if any of their rights be abrogated by just power , he stands no longer ingaged to that particular . why , i beseech you , do you leave out something here , that you held necessary for the abrogation of the laws of the land. before it was , that the laws might be abrogated by just power in a regular way . but here you grant , that the rights of the clergie may be abrogated by just power . but what 's become of the regular way ? was it forgotten ? or left out on set purpose ? surely there is a my fiery in it ; for your argument ought to procede thus : by what means the laws of the land may be abrogated , by the same means may the rights of the clergie be abrogated . but the laws of the land may be abrogated by just power in a regular way . ergo , the rights of the clergie may be abrogated by just power in a regular way . thus the syllogisme stands fair for the form ; and the major or minor proposition must be denied by the respondent : otherwise he is at a non-plus , and convinced . but your conclusion is , so , or , ergo , the rights of the clergie may be abrogated by just power . but this so is faultie ; and so is the syllogisme ; because the minor terminus is maimed in the conclusion ; it comes not in whole , as it should do . the reason why , is plain ; because you are not able to set down a regular way , wherein , or whereby those rights , you aim at , may be abolished . 11. and what wonder , that you can finde no regular way for the clergie and their rights , since you have put them clean out of the regular , the right way . and when ye will find the regular way , god knows ; for , plain it is , that ye are out of the way . ye wander this way , and that way , like men in a maze , or mis-led by an ignis fatuus , by jack in a lantern . no rule at all you have to be guided by but onely this , that the book of common prayers must down , and episcopacy shall not stand . so farewell heavenly devotion , and all true faith ; and farewell church . if this be not to be possessed with the spirit of giddinesse , and impietie , i know not what is . 12. but , i pray you , give me leave , before i passe further , to tell you , that just power goes alwayes in a regular way . and when it leaveth that way , it ceaseth to be just ; unlesse inforced by such necessitie , as cannot be provided for in a regular way . that power onely is just , which doth nothing wittingly but what is just ; and distributes to every man and societie their severall dues . if it do otherwise , we cannot call it just , unlesse we desire to incur that sentence of the almighty , a he that saith unto the wicked , thou art righteous , him shall the people curse , nations shall abhor him . 13. well , be it just , or unjust , be it never so much cursed at home , or abhorred abroad , you are resolved to justifie the abrogation of the rights of the clergie . what ? a clergie-man , and a preacher of the word of god , and altogether for ruine and destruction ? surely you are not a preacher of that word , which s. paul taught ; for he professeth , that b authoritie is given to men of our calling , not for destruction , but for edification . shew me one preacher in the word of god , besides corah and his confederates , that ever spake , or wrot any thing against the rights of the clergie . you cannot possibly , unlesse you bring in judas with his c ad quid , finding fault , with that cost , which was bestowed upon our saviours person . indeed no man so fit for your turn ; d he robbed and betrayed the head , and you the body . but you know , what censure is passed upon him for it ; e this he said , because he was a theife , and did carrie the bag . he did , and you would . it is private , not publick interest , that stirres up ambitious and greedy spirits against christ and his vicegerents . i can shew you f s. paul magnifying his office , and g justifying the priviledges therof . but you are none of s. pauls followers ; demetrius and alexander , silver-smiths and copper-smiths , are your good masters , and with them i leave you . 14. but what are these rights that you are so eagar to have abrogated ? every subject in his severall place and degree hath right to his lands , to his goods , to his liberties and privileges : and so hath every clergie-man ; unlesse we of the clergie be no longer subjects , but slaves . would you have all these , or onely some of these abolished ? a question it was at first , but now i see , what they are . first , h episcopacy . 2ly , i the clergies priviledges , & immunities . 3ly , the k bishops ecclesiasticall , or sole jurisdiction in so large a circuit . 4ly , l the bishops great revenues . thus the rights of the clergie , are precisely inventoried , that so neither root nor branch may scape their fingers . episcopacy we have already taken into consideration ; now let us take a survey of the rest . 15. but first let us observe the course , you propose , to strip us of these rights . your method is subtil , and your expressions at first view seeme moderate : you put us in equall balance with the rest of our fellow-subjects . thus you argue ; m it is not unlawfull to abrogate any of the laws of the land : it is not therefore unlawfull to abrogate any of the rights of the clergie . thus far your argument seemes to proceed fairely . but how comes it to passe , that out of this any of the kingdome , you conclude against all the rights of the clergie ? for what have the clergie besides their orders , priviledges , and immunities ; besides their jurisdiction and revenues ? and yet all , all these you expose to the mercie of a parliament . but , in good sooth , do you think , that if it be lawfull for a parliament to alter or abolish any particular laws of the land , that therefore it is lawfull to take away all , that the clergie have , or should have ? indeed this is something answerable to the proceedings of these times . it would sound very harsh , if it were thus resolved ; it is lawfull for king and parliament to abrogate any of the laws of the land : it is therefore lawfull for them to abolish all the laws of the land. and yet this is your manner of arguing . as if a particular included the generall ; as if any were equivalent to all . which is apparently false ; for universals are of a far larger extent then these individua vaga , uncertain notions . though all comprehend any , yet any comprehends not all . for lawfull it is not to subvert the fundamentall laws ; therefore not all . this were to raze the foundation of the kingdome . were this justified of any particular corporation , or body politick , besides the clergie , it would not be indured . oh , how would the citizens of london storme , if we should conclude thus ; it is lawfull to take away any of the laws of the land ; and therefore it is lawfull to take away all the rights of the city of london . yet let wise men judge , if this be not your argument right . but the clergie is become the asse of the times ; it must bear all , or sink under the burden . 16. but you say , that this is to be done n by just power in a regular way . well and good . but can that be a just power , which deals unjustly ? for o justice gives to every man his own ; according to gods command , p render to every man his due . the law of god we confesse to be the supreme law ? whatever then is done against the law of god , cannot be just . yea though it be done by a law , no act can justifie it ; since a law contrary to gods word , is no sooner made , then void . i speak to christians . but with you r the law shall be valid , though injurious . to the injuriousnesse of this law i shall submit , because a subject ; but never acknowledge any validitie therein , because a christian . 17. by a just power , we see , this cannot be done ; how then shall it be done in a regular way ? a regular way , as you conceive you have set down ; wherein any law of the land may be abrogated . and that is , ſ upon the motion , or with the consent of the parliament . how comes this to passe ? because the parliament consists of the head , and the representative body of the whole kingdome . and who are these ? first t the king , who is the head . 2ly , the lords spirituall and temporall : and 3ly , the commons . but the parliament is maimed of late . u 1. the house of commons represents the greivances of the countrey . 2. the house of lords advise his majestie with their counsell , and propose for the common good , what they conceive meet . 3. x it is in the kings power to assent to these proposals , or to disassent , to make them statutes , or no statutes . and that the crown may receive no detriment , the king hath the judges of the land , his councell , and other officers of state present , to prevent such mischiefes . the lords take care of their lands and honors , that they be not damnified by any new law. the knights and burgesses by the severall counties and corporations , are intrusted with such things , as concern their generall or particular good . and all are to take care for the good of the church , the common mother of us al. in these things every man doth , or ought to provide , that all things be so done for the common good , that ( if it be possible ) nothing be done to the prejudice of any . 18. and reason for it : for as y by one spirit we are all baptised into one body spirituall , or mysticall , so by the goodnesse of god we all are under one king incorporated into one body politick . z but the body is not one member , but many . indeed a if it were all one member , where were the body ? and god hath so tempered this body together , that b every member hath need one of another ; and c those , which seem to be most feeble , are necessary . all this was done by the great wisedome of god , d that there might be no divisions , or distractions , in the body : but that the members should have the same care one for another . thus god hath knit us together with the bonds of a mitie and necessity , that we might love one another sincerely . but charity is so farre from doing wrong , that e she seeketh not her own . which is thus to be understood , according to s. austins expression , f quia communia propriis , non propria communibus anteponit : because charity prefers the common good before her own private interest , and not her own private interest before the common good . where this love is , ther 's the common-wealth . but what state is that kingdom in , where they that are intrusted by the publick , seeke their own , and indeavour with might and maine , to make that theirs , which is none of theirs ? where under pretence of the common good , they ingrosse all into their own clutches ? is not this the crying sinne , the grand monopolie of these times ? 19. the regular way to abrogate any of the rights of the clergie , or laity , is at their own motion , or consent , made and delivered by their representatives in parliament , or convocation . henry viii , with cromwell , and the rest of his blessed councel , after banishment of the popes power , knew not which way to make a title to monasteries with their lands and goods , but onely by grant and surrender of the abbots . with them therefore he labours by his great and active servant cromwell ; who prevailes with some by promises and large annuities ; with other by violence and the sword : as is manifested by master spelman , in the preface to his ever honoured fathers book de non temerandis ecclesiis . the statute therefore 31. hen. viii . c. 13. tells us , that these grants surrenders , &c. were made freely , voluntarily , and without compulsion , to the king , his heires and successors . what ever the truth be , this was the onely legall pretence they could devise . and this is the onely course you can take , to make a plea in law to the church-lands . you are faine therefore at last to perswade the clergies consent , p. 5. but of that in due place . 20. in the mean space thus much by the way . either we are subjects , or no subjects ; if we are subjects , then ought we to have the liberties and priviledges of subjects ; whereof this is one , that not so much as a subsidie , or a little ship-mony be taken from any one of us , without our assent yeelded either by ourselves , or by such as we put in trust . and this present parliament hath often protested before god and the world , that the rights and liberties of subjects they do and will defend with their lives and fortunes . why then are our rights and liberties so strook at , and exposed to contempt and sale ? are we no subjects ? surely we were borne so . how then did we forfeit g our birth-right ? by taking orders ? then is it better to be mr. gerees groom , then himself . and , it may be , this is the reason , why so many step up into the pulpit without orders , lest perchance they lose their birth-right . 21. it may be , you will say , that we were not born priests or clergie-men . you say right ; neither is any man born a lawyer , a goldsmith , or a draper . and yet when any of our brethren undertake these professions , they enjoy the rights and liberties , they were born to , with some additions . and why not we ? and yet we poore clergie-men are the onely free-born subjects , that are out-lawed , as it were , and cast forth as dung upon the face of the earth . surely it is better to be a parliamentarians foot-boy , then h a steward of the mysteries of christ . and yet such we are . little do these men consider , that all subjects are born alike capable of these rights , if so they be fit to take orders . the wrong therefore is done alike to all free-born subjects ; perchance to mr. speakers grandchild . since then i the kings oath ( as you confesse ) is against acting or suffering a tyrannous invasion on laws and rights ; it must necessarily follow , that as he may not act , so he may not suffer any such tyranny to be used . hitherto he hath withstood these temptations : and god , i hope , will ever deliver him from them , and from the hands of his enemies . even so amen , lord jesu . chap. xi . whether the clergie and laitie be two distinct bodies , or one body politick . that church-men in all ages had some singular priviledges allowed them . 1. that with some colour you may perswade the people , that it is lawfull not onely to clip the wings , but to pick the carkasse , and to grate the very bones of the clergie , you tell them , that k this oath was so framed , when the clergie of england was a distinct society or corporation from the people of england . when was this oath , i beseech you , framed ? you should have done well to have pointed out the time ; and not tell us , that l this distinction is a branch of popery . but this is the fashion of such , as you are , when you intend to disgrace , alter , or destroy any thing , that concerns the church , then presently 't is popery . thus you cast a mist before the peoples eyes , that loath popery ; and yet know not , what popery is . 2. but this his majesties oath is grounded upon the word of god , who hath made promise to his church , spread among the gentiles , that m kings shall be her nursing fathers , and queens her nursing mothers . when therefore christian kings are inthroned , they take a most solemn oath , not onely to administer true justice to the people , but that they will also maintain the rights and priviledges of the church and clergie , as by right they ought to do . the reason is , because there are so many envious & mischievous eyes upon the church : because n the edomites and ishmaelites , the moabites and hagarens , have cast their heads together with one consent , and conspired to take her houses and lands into possession . gods word prevails with few ; the kings sword therefore must stand between the church , and such sacrilegious spirits . 3. if they fail in this duty , then o will the lord enter into judgement with the ancients of the people , and the princes thereof . what , for this cause ? yes , for this very cause : p for ye have eaten up the vineyard ; the spoil of the poore is in your houses . is this any thing to the church ? yes marrie is it , the geneva note tels you so . q meaning ( saith the note ) that the rulers and governors had destroyed his church , and not preserved it according to their duty . those , who are guilty of this mischief , let them beware : his majesties comfort is , that he hath withstood these impious designes according to his duty . for r whosoever shall gather himself in thee , against thee , shall fall . ſ meaning the domesticall enemies of the church , as are the hypocrites . dear brother , take heed to your feet , and remember , that t it is a dreadfull thing to fall into the hands of the everliving god. but view we your reason . 4. u the clergie and laitie ( say you ) were distinct bodies ; but this distinction is taken away , and laity and clergie are now one body politick . one body politick ? are we so ? whence is it then , that the bishops are thrust out of the house of peers ; and that none of us may vote , or sit in the house of commons ? are we of the same body ; and yet have no priviledges with the body ? in at subjection , out at immunities ? in at taxes , out at privileges ? this is one of those even ordinances , which your blessed covenant hath hatched . of the same body we are , under the same power , subject to the same laws , and yet not capable of the same privileges . is this equalitie ? scoggins doal right , some all , and some never a whit . 5. neither do we say , that we are a severall or distinct body ; but we are a severall state , or corporation in the same body . one body , but severall members in and of the same body . in ecclesiasticall persons of this kingdom are commonly three qualities or conditions : one is naturall , the other two are accidentall . 1. englishmen and denisons of this kingdom we are by birth : 2. vniversitie men by matriculation and education : and 3. clergie men by ordination . by the first we have an interest in the privileges of the kingdom . by the second we have an interest in the immunities of the universitie . by the third we have an interest in the rights of the church . the later privileges do not annihilate that right or claim , which we have by birth . neither cease we to be the kings subjects , because clergie men . in taking orders we put not off allegeance ; we rather confirm and inlarge it . for x a shame it is for us to teach others , what we do not our selves . and our duty it is , to y put every man in minde to be subject to principalities and powers , and to obey magistrates . 6. that there are severall relations in us of the clergie , and that we have severall privileges by these relations , will appear evidently in s. paul , who was z an israelite by blood , a a roman by freedom , but b an apostle by ordination . by his orders he lost none of his former privileges , but c acquired new , whereto he had no right as israelite , or romane . yet , as occasion serves , he stands upon his privileges as a romane ; and both d the centurion and the commander in chief were afraid to offend against that law , or privilege . but we with bl●shlesse foreheads trample upon gods laws , and the privileges of his nearest servants . but though s. paul stand upon his privileges , and e magnifie his office , yet f he acknowledgeth himself to be cesars subject , and that at his tribunall he ought to be judged . 7. our saviour himself had severall relations : g he was the son of david , and the lord of david ; the son of david , according to his humanitie ; but the lord of david , in his deitie . as lord of all , he receives tithes and sacrifices ; h as a subject he payes tribute to cesar : and when an arraigned person , i he acknowledgeth judge pilate to have power against him . besides this , he is a king , a priest , and a prophet : a king , to command ; a priest , to offer sacrifice ; and a prophet , to foretell , what he sees meet . nay there is hardly a citizen of london , but hath a treble relation to severall privileges : 1. to the generall rights as he is a free denison of this nation ; 2. to others , as he is citizen of london ; and to a third sort , as he is free of this or that company . and shall the meanest freeman enjoy his severall rights , when the ministers and stewards of god are cut out of all . are we dealt with as the dispensers of gods high and saving mysteries ? nay , are we so well dealt with as the lowest members of this nation ? is not this the way to lead in jeroboams priests ; to fill the pulpits with the scum of the people , and to bring the priesthood into utter contempt ? o all ye , that passe by the way , behold , and consider , if ever the like shame befell any nationall church , that is threatened to ours , at this day . but k thus it comes to passe , when there is no king in the israel of god. 8. if this distinction between clergie and laity be a branch of popery , how comes it to passe , that those great reformers , and zealous enemies to popery , suffered the clergie to continue a distinct province of themselves ; and that they did not with popery quite extinguish this distinction ? why doth q. elizabeth call them l a great state of this kingdome , if they be no state at all ? why did king edward vi. that vertuous lady queene elizabeth , and wise king iames , summon the bishops to convene in convocation as a distinct society ; and to vote in the house of peers as lords spirituall ; plainly by title distinguished from the lords temporall ? m vndoubtedly ( say you ) all priviledges of the clergie , that are ( or were ) contrariant to the laws of the land , were abolisht in the reign of henry the eight . they were so . it follows therefore undoubtedly , that these priviledges , which were continued through so many princes raigns that were enemies to popery , were neither popish nor contrariant to the laws of the land. and yet some of those times were not over favourable to the clergie . 9. that we are a distinct society , or corporation from the people is evident ; by the coronation oath , by magna charta , by severall acts of parliament , and by scripture itself . the coronation oath observes the distinction of clergie and people ; and assures us , that they shall be distinctly preserved . magna charta does the like : and the acts of parliament distinguish the kings subjects into clergie and laity , allotting to each their severall priviledges ; allowing the people to take many courses , which the clergie may not . this distinction is approved by scripture , where n the lord takes the levites from among the children of israel . s. paul assures us , that o every high preist is taken from among men. and the scholiast tels us ▪ that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is there taken for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as if the apostle had said , he is set apart from men , from the common people . this exemption or distinction , which you are pleased to call q a branch of popery , or r of antichristian usurpation , is here justified by gods owne word . and josephus that was well skilled in moses writings , and judaicall antiquities , testifies , that ſ moses did seperate the tribe of levi from the communitie of the people . he might have said , that god himself did it ; for the text saith plainly , that t the lord seperated the tribe of levi to beare the arke of the covenant , to stand before the lord , to administer unto him , and to blesse in his name . from that time forward u they were not numbred amongst the rest of the people ; x the lords they were : and y the rest of the tribes were strangers to their office . z the very light of nature taught the heathen to distinguish between preist and people ; and to allow them distinct priviledges . and the light of scripture taught christians to do the like : hence is it , that not onely in the canons of the church , but also in the imperiall constitutions this distinction between the clergie and laity is most frequent and familiar . otherwise what strange confusion must necessarily have overspread the face of the church , if this distinction had not been religiously preserved ? what diverse would not see , these times have enforced us to feele . 10. and yet for all this , we say not , that a we are exempt from secular power ; neither set we up two supremacies . this will prove to be your popish or anarchicall doctrine ; yours , i say , that would so fain cast this aspersion upon us . for do not you tell us , that b ther 's a supremacie in the king , and a supremacie in the parliament ? are not here two supremacies set up by you ; that so you may make the parliament law-lesse , and subject to no power ? we detest and have abjured the popes supremacie ; and not onely that , but all other supremacies , besides the kings , within these his majesties dominions and countries . for we have sworne , that king charles is the onely supreme governor of all his realms , over all persons in all causes . but you induce the peoples supremacie . wheras we know no coordination but a subordination of all persons severally and jointly to his majestie , and to his majestie onely , within all his dominions . 11. we protest before god and the world , sincerely and from the heart , that the king is major singulis , & major universis , greater then any , and greater then all the members of his dominions , whether in , or out of parliament : and that he is c homo a deo secundus , & solo deo minor , second to god , and lesse then god onely . to this our best lawyers bear testimonie , even that d the king is superior to all , and inferior to none . and our e acts of parliament say the same . thus much in substance we have sworne ; and we unfainedly beleeve , that all the world cannot absolve us of this oath . as therefore we hitherto have done , so shall we still , by gods grace , bear faith , and true allegiance to his majestie , his heirs and successors , though it be to the hazard of our liberty , of our estates , and lives . yea we acknowledge our selves obliged to the laws of the land in all those things , which concern the right and peaceable administration of the state. to the king we pay first fruits and tenths : which lay impropriators are seldome charged with . to the king we grant and pay subsidies after an higher rate , then any of the laity , by many degrees . where then are the two supremacies , which we erect ? 12. 't is true indeed , that f for deciding of controversies , and for distribution of justice within this realm , there be two distinct jurisdictions , the one ecclesiasticall , limited to certain spirituall and particular cases . the court , wherin these causes are handled , is called forum ecclesiasticum , the ecclesiasticall court. the other is secular and generall ; for that it is guided by the common and generall law of the realme . now this is a maxime , affirmed by the master of the law , that g the law doth appoint every thing to be done by those , unto whose office it properly appertaineth . but h unto the ecclesiasticall court diverse causes are committed jure apostolico , by the apostolicall law. such are those , that are commended by s. paul to timothy the bishop of the ephesians , and to titus the bishop of the cretians . first , to i receive an accusation against a presbyter , and the manner how . 2ly , to k rebuke him , if occasion require . 3ly . l if any presbyter preach unsound doctrine , the bishop is to withdraw himself from him , m that is to excommunicate him . 4ly , n in the same manner he is to use blasphemers , disobedient and unholy persons , false accusers , trucebreakers , traitors , and the like . 5ly , o the bishop is to reject , p that is , to excommunicate , all hereticks after the first and second admonition . 13. q these things the ordinary ( or bishop ) ought to do de droit , of right ( as sir edward coke speaks ) that is to say , he ought to do it by the ecclesiasticall law in the right of his office . these censures belong not to secular courts ; they are derived from our saviours preistly power , aud may not be denounced by any , that is not a preist at least . and , r a maxime it is of the common law , ( saith that famous lawyer ) that where the right is spirituall , and the remedy therefore onely by the ecclesiasticall law , the c●nusans thereof doth appertain to the ecclesiasticall court. but ſ a bihop is regularly the kings immediate officer to the kings court of justice in causes ecclesiasticall . therefore not a company of presbyters : no rule for that . and this is it that wrings and vexes you so sorely . for your a me is t to share the bishops lands and jurisdiction among you of the presbyteriall faction . this your vast covetousnesse & ambition have of late cost the church full deere , and have been a maine cause of these divisions and combustions . by these means you have made a forcible entrie upon nabaoths vineyard . it were well ahab and jezabel would beware in time . however , wise men consider , that every one , that steps up to the bar is not fit to be a judge ; nor every one , that layes about him in the pulpit , meet to be a bishop . 14. besides , in those epistles this power is committed to single governors , to timothy alone , and to titus alone . but timothy and titus were bishops strictly and properly so called ; that is , they were of an higher order then presbyters , even of the same with the apostles . hence is that of s. cyprian , u ecclesia super episcopos constituitur , & omnis actus ecclesiae per eosdem praepositos gubernatur . the church is settled upon bishops , and every act of the church is ruled by the same governors . by bishops , not by presbyters . now the word of god is , norma sui , & obliqui , the rule , whereby we must be regulated : from which if we depart , we fall foule , or runne awry . since then the church is settled upon bishops , it is not safe for any king or state to displace them , lest they unsettle themselves and their posterity . they that have endeavoured to set the church upon presbyters , x have incurred such dangers , as they wot not of . for if we beleive s. cyprian , 1 they offend god , 2 they are unmindfull of the gospel ; 3 they affront the perpetuall practise of the church ; 4 they neglect the judgment to come ; and 5 endanger the souls of their brethren , whom christ dyed for . neither is this the opinion of s. cyprian onely ; ignatius speaks as much ; y 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as many as are christs , cleave fast to the bishop . but these that forsake him , and hold communion 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , with the accursed , shall be cut off with them . this is ignatius genuine resolution , attested by vedel●us from geneva : and if true ; a most dreadfull sentence for those , that endeavour the extirpation of episcopacy . 15. as for the priviledges of the clergie , which you are so earnest to ruinate , i shall manifest , that they have footing in the law of nature , in the law of moses , and in the gospel . in the law of nature . z abraham give tithes to the preist of the most high god , a the preists in egypt had lands belonging to them , as also portions of the kings free bountie . and the same law of nature taught pharoah and joseph b not to alienate either the preists lands , or other their maintenance in time of extremest famine . by the light of nature c a●taxerxes king of perfia decreed , that it should not be lawfull for any man to lay toll , tribute , or custome upon any preist , levite , singer , porter , or other minister of the house of god. and d king alexander sonne of antiochus epiphanes made jonathan the high preist a duke , and governor of a province . e he commanded him also to be clothed in purple ; and f caused him to sit by , or with , his own royall person . g he sent also to the same high preist a buckle or collar of gold , to weare ; even such as were in use with the princes of the blood . and h by proclamation he commanded that no man should molest the high preist , or prefer complaint against him . and can it be denied , that i melchisedec , preist of the most high god , was king of salem , and made so by god himself ? 16. in the law , k the lord made aaron more honourable , and gave him an heritage . he divided unto him the first fruits of the increase ; and to him especially he appointed bread in abundance . l for him he ordained glorious and beautifull garments . m he beautified aaron with comely ornaments , and clothed him with a robe of glory . n upon his head he set a miter , and o a crown of pure gold upon the miter , wherein was ingraved holinesse ; and this , if i mistake not , is p that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which philo tels us , was set upon the preists head , and is the cheife ornament of the eastern kings . the reason , he gives for it , is this ; because q while the preist is discharging his dutie he is more eminent then any person whatsoever , even then kings . but i rather conceive , it was because at that time he represented , or prefigured the royall preisthood of our saviour . 17. for the gospel , we have prophecies , in what state and honor preists ought to be had among christians . witnesse that evangelicall prophet , whose words are these , r ye shall be named the preists of the lord ( as they are at this day ) : men shall call you the ministers of our god. ye shall eat the riches of the gentiles , and ye shall be exalted with their glory . this is one ▪ the other shall be from that royall psalmist ; t in stead of thy fathers thou shalt have children , whom thou mayest make princes in all lands . do not you go about to make the word of god a lye , while you endeavour to dis-inherit the clergie of these privileges and honors ? but u god shall be true , he shall be justified in his sayings ; and every man shall be a liar . behold , how these prophecies were fulfilled under the gospēl . when our saviour sent forth his apostles and disciples to preach the gospel , and to dispense his heavenly mysteries , he daines them with this honour , to rank them for usage with himself ; x he that despiseth you , despiseth me ; and he that receiveth you , receiveth me . to intimate to all christians , that they ought to use his messengers , as they would christ in his own person . for whether well , or ill , he will take it as done to himself . hence is it , that y the galathians received s. paul as an angel of god , even as christ jesus . yea z they were ready to pull out their own eyes , to do him a pleasure . and a when this apostle came to melita , he , and those that attended him , were courteously entertained , honoured they were with many honors , and enriched with gifts , by the prince of that island , and his people . 18. some , it may be , may conceive , that these were but personall honors ; and that they belong to them onely , whom christ immediately ordained . but the scripture will teach us a better lesson . for doth not our saviour say , b he that receiveth whomsoever i send , receiveth me ? now we know , that our saviour sendeth not onely by himself , but by those also , to whom he hath given power to send , and ordain . thus by s. paul he sent timothy and titus : and we find c s. barnabas with s. paul ordaining presbyters in all churches , where they came . this therefore is a generall rule ; d those governors , who labour in the word and doctrine ( whether they be ordained by christ , or his apostles , or any other , to whom this authoritie is duely given ) are worthy of double honor ; that is ( saith primasius ) e both in love , and place . thus f titus by the corinthians was received with fear and trembling , and memorable obedience . g they honoured him ( as theodoret speaks ) as their father , and reverenced him as their spirituall governor . these honors are due , not so much in respect of personall worth , as in regard of the office , which they bear . this appears by s. paul ; who willeth the philippins not onely to h receive epaphroditus , their apostle , or bishop , with all gladnesse ; but , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , he chargeth them to hold such , as he was , in honour and reputation . all must be thus honoured ; but those most , that are most worthy . 19. constantine , the first emperor that ever was christen'd , had learned this lesson ; i he therefore did reverence the bishops , ad imaginem quandam divinae praesentiae , as if he had some resemblance of god before his eyes . k he kissed those bishops skars , that had suffered for christs most holy name . l he entertained divers of them at his own table : and m at their departure he bestowed upon them many & goodly gifts . n upon bishops he conferr'd very many privileges , and the highest honors he had to bestowe . he ordained , that o those canons , which were agreed upon by the bishops , and had received his royall approbation , should be of more sacred authority , then any law or sentence , that should passe from his highest judges : and that none of his princes should dare to infringe them . to conclude , p he commanded the governors of his severall provinces to give reverence and honour to bishops ; threatning no lesse then death to such as should revile or abuse them . what reverence and esteem bishops were of with his severall sons , though differing in religion , the church history manifests : for these and all other privileges were inviolably preserved to the church , till that apostata julian ware the crown . but those pious and orthodox emperors , that succeeded him , raised up the church , and made good her former privileges . 20. the reason why good princes were so carefull of the church and churchmen , was q because they were confident , with great constantine , that god gave a blessing to their affairs , for the bishops sakes . and those two wise emperors leo and constantine professe with justinian , that r the peace and felicitie of their people , as well for body as soul , depend upon the harmonious consent of the imperiall and episcopall functions . mark that . in scripture ſ the prophets and servants of god are called the charet of israel , and the horsemen thereof ; because t by their prayers they did more prosper their countrey , then by force of arms . yea u by them god blessed his people . these were the church-priviledges ; and these the opinions the most christian princes had of church-men . and you cannot say , that any of these emperors had any dependance upon the pope , or any compliance with him . but we are fallen into those times , wherein it is accounted losse , to bestowe cost upon christ ; pietie , to rifle the church ; and good service to god , to murder his apostles and priests . indeed , what ever is good and commendable , is now with the round brotherhood cried out upon as popish . by this time , i hope , it appears , that x these immunities , which belong to the church , arise not from the errour of the times , as you suppose , but from the tenure of scripture . that 's the tenure , we hold by . chap. xii . whether to sit and vote in parliament be incongruous to the calling of bishops . 1. something an hard theme to treat upon , and unpleasing to the times . and yet i must say something to it , lest i seem to desert the cause , to blame our predecessors of indiscretion , and to acknowledge that weaknesse in our bishops , which the wisest of this kingdom know to be far from them . what ? not contented to strip us of our rights , lands , and priviledges , but you must twit us with the losse of y the bishops votes , as if they were neither fit to sit or vote , in the house of peers ? that this hath been done cannot be denied ; but how justly i shall not question for the honour i bear to my soveraign . yet thus much is evident to every single eye , that we have had many even and conscionable parliaments , wherein bishops have voted : what kinde of parliament we have had without them , some will make bold to speak hereafter . but a word in private . were they not thrust out , lest the king should have too many faithfull counsellors in the house ? were they not removed , to make way for these civill broils ? the incendiaries knew full well , that those messengers and makers of peace would never have passed a vote for war. 2. but what were the motives , that wrought upon his majestie , to yeeld to have the bishops turned out of that house , z wherein they had voted from the first day , that ever parliament sate in england ? and before ever there was an house of commons , they had their votes in the great councels of the kingdom ; as sir robert cotton manifests in his treatise , that the soveraigns person is required in the great councels of the state. p. 3. &c. if at any time they have been forced out of these parliaments , or great assemblies , it hath been with so ill successe , that with all possible speed they have been recalled . will you hear the motives ? surely they were the very same , that drove the king from westminster , and london . i remember , the clothiers were perswaded in a mutinous manner to cry down the bishops votes , because they had no market for their clothes . and now they cry out , that they want wooll to make clothes . is not this the blessing they have gained by that hideous and senselesse out-cry ? 3. but why was this privilege abolisht , as incongruous to their calling ? are bishops unfit to advise , or assent in framing laws ? surely they are rationall men , and learned men . by reason of their age , and offices , which they have heretofore passed thorow , they must needs be men of much experience . and it is to be presumed so many , for so many , as conscionable , and as much for the common good , as any . and such men are most fit to prepare , and commend laws for and to kings . for i have learned , that a this is a strong argument in law , b nihil , quod est contra rationem , est licitum , nothing contrary to reason , is lawfull . for reason is the life of the law ; nay the common law it self is nothing else but reason . which is to be understood of an artificiall perfection of reason , gotten by 1 long studie , 2 observation , and 3 experience , and not every mans naturall reason : for , nemo nascitur artifex , no man is born master of his profession . against reason therefore it is , that men of long study , much observation , and experience , should be excluded from voting in matters of such high concernment . and some men , that have scarce any of these , should be admitted , as if they were born wise , or gained state-experience by hawking , or hunting . 't is true , that c senatore sons might be admitted to the government of the common-wealth , before they were five and twenty yeers of age : but d before they were twenty and five yeers compleat , they could give no suffrage among the rest of the senators , though senators . this was the wisdom of that thriving roman state. 4. now give me leave to enquire more strictly , what it is , that is incongruous to the calling of bishops . is it to sit in the house of peers ? or to vate in the house of peers ? or both ? that the lords spirituall have sate and voted with the lords temporall , cannot be denied . the acts of parliament speak it , from the first session to this last . let it not be thought incongruous for bishops to sit with the best of subjects . e they sate at constantines own table . nor to be numbred among peers . f the prophecie saith , that they may be made princes . nor to vote in matters of state : since usually they are men of great learning , of much experience , observation , and conscience . such as fear god , honour their soveraign , and love their countrey with-out by ends . such they are , and such they ought to be . and though sometimes there be a judas among the twelve , yet is the calling never the worse . 5. had it been incongruous to their calling , melchisedech that was both king and priest had never been a type of our saviour . the law of god and nature abhor that , which is incongruous . had it been incongruous to the priesthood , god had never made moses and eli governors of his people , in temporall affairs ; for g they were both priests . h jethro , priest of midian , was of excellent use to moses in state affairs . and it may not be forgotten , that i king jehoash thrived , as long as he hearkned to jehoiada the high priest . but when he sleighted the priests counsell , he suddenly fell into the extremest miseries . 2 chron. 24. 21. 23. &c. our histories will likewise tell you , how k. henry vii . prosper'd by applying himself to the advice of his bishops , morton , denny , fox , and others . and how his son k. henry viii . never thrived , after he turned his ears from the counsell of his prelates . and yet he excluded them not from parliaments ; he could not be drawn to that . sure , had this been incongruous to their calling , your fellow ministers of london would never have granted , that two distinct offices may be formally in one and the same person ; as melchizedech was formally a king and priest . i. d. p. 212. 6. a wonder it is , that you & your faction should spie thi● incongruitie , which was never discerned by the wisest of our fore-fathers . the writ , which summons the parliament , runs thus , k rex habiturus colloquium & tractatum cum praelatis , magnatibus , & proceribus . the king intending a conference and treatie with his prelates , and great men , and peers . this writ , as some report , was framed under k. henry iii. and is continued in the same terms to this day . and yet no incongruitie discerned in it , till ye came in with your new lights , which issue from your light brains . but now the bishops must no more vote , no , not sit in parliament ; because you , forsooth , conceive it to be incongruous to their calling . but will any wise man take your word for a law , or imagine it to be more authentick , then the resolutions of all our fore-fathers ? you have no way to finger the bishops lands and jurisdiction , but by turning them out of the house . this , this was it , that moved you to charge their presence in parliament with incongruity . 7. the lawyers tell us , that l the writ of summons is the basis and foundation of the parliament . and m if the foundation be destroyed , what becomes of the parliament ? truly it falls ; saith justice jenkins ; according to that n maxime both in law and reason , sublato fundamento opus cadit , the foundation being taken away , the work falls . if then it shall be proved , that you endeavour to ruine the foundation , the writ of summons , it must necessarily follow , that you endeavour the ruine of the parliament . by the writ the king is to have treatie with his prelates . but you suffer him to have no treaty with his prelates . where then is the writ ? nay , the bishops are quite voted down root and branch . how then shall he treat in parliament with those , that have no being ? the lord commands o the ark to be made of shittim-wood : if there had been no shittim wood , the ark could not haue been made . if there be no prelates , where 's the treatie ? where the parliament ? it will not serve to slip in the presbyters ; they are not the men , they are not called for . p these are episcopall privileges : q all other ecclesiasticall persons are to be contented with those liberties and free customes , quas priùs habuerunt , which they enjoyed heretofore . 8. the writ summoned this parliament , for the defence of the church of england . herein you have also made the writ void ; for you have destroyed the church of england . and in destroying the church , you have destroyed the writ . the commission is for defence ; they then that destroy , what they are bound to defend , overthrow their commission . r our saviour sent his apostles to preach peace ; ſ to blesse , and not to curse ; t to please god , and not man. if then we preach warre , and not peace ; if we curse , when we ought to blesse , if we please men , and not god , we forfeit our commission . s. paul is plain ; u if we please men , we are none of christs servants ; much lesse apostles . for x his servants we are , whom we obey , whom we please . if then we prove y faithlesse and unprofitable servants , we shall be turned out of our masters house , even out of doores , and cast into outer darknesse . upon these grounds i argue thus . he that overthrows the prime intention of the writ , overthrows the writ . but you have overthrown the prime intention of the writ . therefore you have overthrown the writ . that you have overthrown the prime intention of the writ , i prove thus . the prime intention of the writ is for the state , and defence of the church of england . but you have z overthrown the state and defence of the church of england . you have therefore overthrown the prime intention of the writ . the second proposition cannot be denied , it is so palpably true . the former is sir edw : cokes ; his words are these . a the state and defence of the church of england is first in intention of the writ . and b if the writ be made void , all the processe is void ; and so farewell parliament . 9. besides , i have learned , that c the assembly of parliament is for three purposes . first , for weighty affairs , that concern the king. secondly , for the defence of his kingdome . and thirdly , for defence of the church of england for the king , no question , but the bishops are faithfull to him . we see , they have constantly adhered to him in these times of triall . in gods and the kings cause they have all suffered , and some died commendably , if not gloriously . for the defence of the kingdome none more forward with their advice , purses , and prayers . and for the church , who so fit , who so able to speake as bishops ? versed they are in the divine law ; in church history , and in the canons of the church . they fully understand not onely the present , but the ancient state of the church . they know , what is of the essence of the church ; what necessary , and what convenient onely ; what is liable to alteration , and what not . these things are within the verge of their profession , and most proper for them to speak to . 10. when king david first resolved to bring up the arke of the lord from kiriath-jearim , into his own citie , d he consulted with the captains of thousands , & hundreds , & cum universis principibus , and with all his princes , about this businesse , e by their advice he orders , that the arke should be carried in a new cart ; and vzzah and ahio are to drive it . but what becomes of this consultation ? f an error was committed clean thorough , and vzzah suffers for it . though david were a marvelous holy man , and a good king , and had a company of wise , religious councellors about him , in the removall , and ordering of the arke , they were mistaken , because they did not advise with the preists about it . for g the preists lips preserve knowledge ▪ & they shall inquire of the law at his mouth . and h the law will not have a cart to carrie the arke , nor lay-men to meddle with it . david saw his mistake with sorrow ; and confesseth to the preists , that i he and his councellors had not sought god after the due order . and why so ? k quia non eratis praesentes ( so the fathers read ) because the preists were not present , & he had not consulted with them about this sacred businesse . and hence it is , that l they did illicitum quid , somthing that was unlawfull . that then a thing be not unlawfull , we must consider , not onely what is to be done ; but the order and manner is to be considered , how it ought to be done ; least failing of the due order , it prove unlawfull . most christians know bonum , what is good ; but few are skilled in the bene , how it ought to be done ; and that is it , that makes so many ruptures , so many breaches , and factions in the world , because every man will prescribe the order , and manner ; which , god knows , they ttle understand . 11. when therfore david had once more resolved to fetch up the arke from the house of obed edom , he calls for the preists , and acknowledgeth , that m none ought to carrie the arke of god , but they ; and that n therefore the lord had made a breach upon him and his , because the preists had not brought it up at first . that this fault may be duly and truely mended , o david commands the preists to sanctifie themselves , and to bring up the arke . they did so , p they brought it up upon their shoulders , q according to their dutie . and r god helped the levites , that bare the arke ; because it was now done in due order . it is no shame then for us , to acknowledge our error with david , and with him to amend , what is amisse . yea this was such a warning to him , that ſ he would not so much as resolve to build an house for the lord , till he had acquainted the prophet nathan with it . in matters therefore , that concern the arke of the covenant , the church of the living god , it is not safe to do any thing without the preists advice . if then the cheif and maine end of calling a parliament be for the good of the church , it is most necessary to have the cheif fathers of the preists present . but sir edward coke assures me , that this is the main end of calling a parliament . his words are these ; t though the state and defence of the church of england be last named in the writ , yet is it first in intention . and what is first in intention is chiefly aimed at , all other things that are handled , are but as means to effect that . it is not then incongruous , but most consonant to the calling of bishops to sit and vote in parliament . 12. besides , u if the honour of god , and of holy church be first in intention , how shall the honour of god , and of the church be provided for , how defended , when the fathers of the church are discarded , who know best , what belongs to gods honour ; who are most able to speake in defence of the church , & to shew how she ought to be provided for ? shall she not in their absence be layed open to the subtill foxes , and mercilesse bores to wast and distroy her ? yea x by this means she is already distroyed . so pious justice jenkins . the incongruitie then is not to the bishops calling , but to the covetousnesse of bores and foxes . 13. another incongruity will follow upon this . y the whole parliament is one corporate body consisting of the head and the three estates . if one of the estates be wanting , it cannot be called a whole , but an imperfect , a maimed parliament . but z the bishops are one of the three estates . suppose them to be the more feeble and lesse honourable estate , or member , yet a this very member is necessary ; and the body is but lame without it . take heed then , that the excluding of bishops , be not incongruous to the parliament . i see not , how it can be incongruous to the prelates to suffer wrong , since b for this purpose they are called . but it is incongruous to the parliament , to be without them ; since without them , it is not a whole , but an imperfect parliament . for i have read , that c bishops were in all parliaments , and voted in them , since we had any . yea , that great master of the law justifies , that d every bishop ought ex debito justiciae of due justice to be summoned by writ , to every parliament , that is holden . but if they leave out the bishops , they begin with injustice , and lay but an ill foundation for so great a court of justice . and where injustice beares the sway , there is little justice to be hoped for . so they are incongruous in the first stone , or foundation of a parliament . 14. there is a statute , that no act of parliament be passed by any soveraign of this realm , or any other authority what soever , without the advice & assent of the three estates of the kingdome , viz. of the 1 lords spirituall , & 2 temporall , & the 3 commons of this realme . and all those are solemnly cursed , by the whole parliament , that shall at any time endeavour to alter this act , or to make any statute otherwise then by the consent of all these , or the major part of them . this , as the learned in the law report , is upon record in the parliament roles . 15. and what comfort , i beseech you , can his majestie have to call a parliament without bishops , since he cannot assure himself of gods assistance without them ? f cenwalch king of the west-saxons was sensible , that his province was destitute of gods protection , while it was without a bishop . indeed g a good bishop is ( with gregory , metropolitan of cesarea ) not onely the beautie of the church , and a fortresse to his flock , but he is the safety of his country . it was the religious conceit of our country men heretofore , that h both king and kingdome have by the church a solid , ● sure foundation for their subsistence . and it was the usuall saying of king iames , i no bishop , no king. in scripture the preists are called k the charets and horsemen of israel ; because by their prayers the country prospered more then by force of armes . and the greek fathers observe , that l the bishop is therefore to pray for all , m because he is the common father of all , be they good or bad . 16. and as he can have little spirituall comfort without bishops ; so n without them he can have no temporall releife , no subsidies granted for his own supplies , or for the defence of the kingdome . i am sure , none have been granted him at westminster , since the expulsion of the bishops . thus have you moulded up such a parliament , as was never known in this realme , since these great councels of state were first assembled . for though the bishops were by his majestie summoned according to justice ; yet were they afterwards turned out at the instigation of a strong & tumultuous faction ; & not suffered to vote in matters that concerned either church or state. thus ye are become o like the princes of judah , that remove the bounds ; that is as the genevians interpret , p ye have turned upside down all politicall order , and all manner of religion . q therefore upon those , that have done so , the lord will powre out his wrath like water ; which will surely overwhelm them , as it did those desperate sinners in the deluge . thus i have manifested , that it is not incongruous to the calling of bishops to sit , and vote in parliament ; but to exclude them is incongruous to the being of a parliament , to the weale of the king , and safety of the kingdom . 17. and yet , as if what-you had delivered , were ex tripode , as sure as gospel , r from barring their votes , you deduce an argument for taking away their jurisdiction ecclesiasticall . if one be abolished , why may not the other be removed ? as if , because my cassocke is taken from me , i must necessarily be stripped out of my gowne 't is true , if this be also done , i must bear it patiently ; but my patience doth not justifie their action , that do me the injurie . neither doth the former fact justifie the latter : truly no more then davids follie with bathsheba can countenance the murder of vriah . the question is not de fact● , but de jure , not what is done , but whether it be justly done . if the fact may justifie a right , then may we maintaine robbing upon salisbury plain ; because it hath been done there more then once . a wonder it is , you had not framed your argument thus : who knows not , that the parliament caused the arch bishop of canterbury to be beheaded ? and then why may they not hang the rest of the bishops , if their lives prove inconvenient , and prejudiciall to the church ? but with julian the apostata , ye had rather slay the preisthood , then the preists . 17. indeed ſ the removall of their ecclesiasticall jurisdiction is no more against the oath then the abolition of their votes . both alike in respect of the oath ; but if we consider the severall authorities , from whence they are derived , we shall find a difference ; because the most part of their jurisdiction is the grant of god ; but their voting among the peers is by the favour of princes , grounded upon the right of nature , and that civill interest , which every free denizon ought to have in some measure , in disposing of his own , and assenting to new laws . but suppose princes may revoke their own favours , can they without perill to their soules , cut off that entaile , which god hath settled upon his church ? i beleeve , no. but you will onely remove it , not abolish it . and removed it may be from dorchester to lincolne , from crediton to exiter . but the removall of ecclesiasticall jurisdiction from bishops to presbyters , is utterly unlawfull ; since without sinne we may not alter the ordinance of god , who settled this jurisdiction upon bishops onely , and not upon presbyters ; as is demonstrated in the next chapter . chap. xiii . certaine light and scandalous passages concerning prince and preist tenderly touched . 1. there 's a great cry in the fourth page against the jurisdiction of bishops , ● inconvenient and prejudiciall to the church ; against unlawfull immunities , anti-evangelicall pompe , combersome greatnesse , and forfeiture by abuse . all these are cryed out upon , but none of them proved . i shall therefore passe these by as a distempered foame , or pulpit froath . yet thus much i must say , that the immunities of the clergie , are held by law , or not . if by law , then are they not unlawfull , but legall . if legall , it is presumption in you to call them unlawfull . if unlawfull , shew against what law. we take not your word to be so authenticke , as if we were bound to beleeve , what ever you say . 2. somthing answerable to this it is , that you tel us , t when this oath was framed , the church was indued with the ignorance of the times . but when was that time ? for that we may go seek ; for you relate it not . if you had , perchance we might have shewed you as wise , and as learned men in those times , as westminster affords at this day . 3. and yet upon these imaginations you conclude , that u the kings oath is invalid , and not onely so , but that it is vinculum iniquitatis , the bond of iniquitie . the respects , you relie upon , are onely these . first , that x prelacy is an usurpation contrary to christs institution . 2ly , that y the clergie ●e of themselves a distinct province , is a branch of popery . 3ly , that z bishops sitting and voting in the house of peers , is abolisht as incongruous to their calling . 4ly , that a the church was endowed with diverse unlawful immunities . and last of all , that b when this oath was framed , the church was indewed with the ignorance of the times . the foure former have been pretily well sif●ed , and a non liquet is returned , i find them not proved . when you make good the last , i shall , with gods blessing , return you an answer . 4. in the mean space i cannot but tell you , that you have willfully & dangerously scandalized diverse princes or blessed memorie ; and charged them almost as deeply , as c s. peter did simon magus , with the bond of iniquitie . a binding , in intangling sinne . surely those princes if you may be credited , tooke this coronation oath either ignorantly , o● maliciously . if ignorantly , they are simple , or carelesse : if maliciously , they were neither good kings , nor good christians . but light forsooth , hath shined forth since those mistie daies . i fear this late light , is but a false light : for it was never spyed by any , that were not condemned hereticks , till now of late . 5. well , thinke men , what they please , you have lately discovered , that the jurisdiction , which was inconvenient and prejudiciall in the bishops , will prove very convenient and commodious for the church in preaching presbyters . those immunities , that were unlawfull in them , will be lawfull in you . that pompe , which was anti-evangelicall , and carnall in them , must needs be spirituall and throughly sanctified to such evangelists as yourself . that combersome greatnesse will but fit your shoulders ; and those great promotions , will not at all be unwildy to presbyteriall saul , which did comber bishop david . and d those priviledges , which were disadvantagious to the church , and hindred the growth of religion , while they were in episcopall hands ▪ will in a classicall assembly turn to the advantage of the church , and further her edification . if this be not your meaning , let the world judge . for these are your words ; e and why may not the great revenues of the bishops , with their sole ▪ jurisdiction in so large a circuit , be indicted and convict to be against the edification of the church ; and it be found more for the glory of god ; that both the revenue be divided , to maintain a preaching ministery , and their jurisdiction also , for the better oversight and censure of manners . you have indicted them indeed , and their revenues , as if under the bishops there were no preaching ministery , no censure of manners ; as if under them there were nothing to the edification of the church or the glory of god. wheras it is well known , that whilest the bishops enjoyed their jurisdiction , other manner of sermons were preached , then have been ever since . 6. you have already vaunted , that the bishops revenues and jurisdiction are against the edification of the church ; and i make no question , but you will justifie , that the abolishing of the three creeds , is much to the edification of gods people . and is not the silencing of the ten commandments , for the better oversight and censure of manners ? thus you have also condemned that most excellent forme of divine service , and vented multitudes of heresies ; and all for the glory of god. but when these things come to try all we shall certainly see , who will be convicted by that grand jury , f that shall sit upon twelve thrones , judging the twelve tribes of israel . not onely of israel according to the flesh , but of israel also according to faith . 7. but why are you so suddenly fallen from an abolition , to an alteration ? before you professe , g that the abolition of the one , is no more against the oath , then of the other . there you would have the bishops jurisdiction abolisht with their votes . but here you will have the jurisdiction divided , their domination altered , and all to maintain a preaching ministery . this you call h the removall of their ecclesiasticall jurisdiction ; in the same page . aaron must lay down his miter and holy garments , that korah may put them on . and s. paul must resigne his apostolicall rod to simon magus , to alexander the copper-smith , and to the brethren in q●irpo . and why so ? alas , the apostle-bishops i do not further , but hinder the work of the gospel ; they are superannited and decrepit ; away with them by all means , and bring in the young , lustie presbyter-bishops , k where strong holds are to be vanquisht . these are the men will do the work , or the pulpit and church shall ring for it . this you call l a good plea to alter the uselesse anti-evangelicall pomp . indeed ' ●is the best you have ; and make the best you can of it , it will prove but an anti-evangelicall and antichristian plea ; if we trust scripture . 8. yet , that this may be done according to your designe , you allow the king thus much power , m that he may , notwithstanding his oath , consent to alter the clergies immunities . no oath shall stand in the way , so ye may gain by it . what ? again fallen from the question ? from abrogation to alteration ? what if i should tell you , that you have altered the state of the question ? that abrogation is the repealing , the disanulling of a law ; and not the changing of it ? but this is no error with you , whose aim is to have episcopacy abolisht , that so the immunities and lands thereof may be transferred upon the presbytery . this is the alteration you gape after . yes , you would so ; n settled you would have them upon preaching ministers , and o upon parochiall pastors : as if none were preachers or pastors , but you of the presbyteriall cut . i will not say , that you are hereticks in this and in other your new-forged doctrines , invented to subvert monarchy and episcopacy . but i shall tell you s. austins opinion , and so leave you to the opinion of the world . p he , in my conceit , is an heretick ( saith that father ) who for any temporall commoditie , and chiefly for his own glory and preferment , doth either raise or follow false and new opinions . and are not pelf , honour , and preferment the cause of all these fidings , and seditions , in church , and state ? if these times speak it not , i am deceived . as for your opinions , it hath been sufficiently manifested , that they are both false and new . 9. be your opinions what they will , their immunities and rights must down , or you will fail in a dilemma . q the clergie ( say you ) either hold their rights and immunities by law , or otherwise . this is not to be denied . but what follows upon this ? r if by law then the parliament , which hath power to alter all laws , hath power to alter such laws as give them their immunities : and those laws altered , the immunitie ceaseth ; and so the kings ingagement in that particular . if not by law , it is but an usurpation . you say it , and we grant it . for truth it is , that we claim no rights and immunities , but what the ancient and christian laws of this realm have confirmed unto us by act of parliament . 10. you say , that the parliament hath power to alter all laws . what if a man should say , that this assertion is not true ? i conceive , it were no blasphemie . indeed it is a blasphemous position to broach the contrary . none but an atheist dares justifie , that ſ the parliament , or any mortall soveraigntie , hath power to alter either the law of god , or the law of nature . and yet these are laws . and who , but an enemy to his countrey , and a friend to confusion , dares affirm , that the parliament hath power to alter the monarchicall or fundamentall laws of this kingdom . i am sure justice jenkins resolves , that t by the law of the land a parliament cannot alter any morall law. 11. give me leave to propose your own argument in terminis , in behalf of the city of london . the citizens of london either hold their rights and immunities by law , or otherwise . if by law , then the parliament , which hath power to alter all laws , hath power to alter such laws , as give them their immunities : and those laws altered the immunity ceaseth . if their immunitie be not by law , it is an usurpation without just title ; which upon discovery is null . how like you this , my rich masters of london ? hath not mr. geree set you in the sleep way to ruine ? but ye may , perchance , have a confidence , that the parliament will not serve you so . be of that minde still . the power , it seems , is in their hands : how they will use it towards you , i cannot say . how they have used it towards us , and towards our good soveraign , ye know . and can ye look to fare better ? remember , what our saviour saith , u the servant is no greater then his master . if they have persecuted me , they will also persecute you . as they have used your lord and king , they will use you . the courtesie ye are like to find , is that , which vlysses had from polyphemus , to be their last breakfast . 12. well , x upon the alteration of the law , the immunitie ceaseth , and so the kings ingagement in that particular . an ordinance of parliament hath absolved many a subject from his oath of allegeance : and now we shall have a law , to absolve the king from his oath of protection . but i am sure no law can absolve him from a duty inherent to his crown . and * such is the duty of protecting his subjects from oppression , and the church from sacriledge . you cannot therefore possibly absolve him from this ingagement . besides , it was never conceived , that an ordinance was of sufficient force to alter a law. the kings ingagement therefore stands as yet in this particular . 13. but suppose , there were such a law , as you-speak of , could it be just ? i have learned from your london ministers , that y 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 law , is so called in greek , from rendering to every person , what is just , meet , equall . in very deed , as the great lawyers speak , z jus , idem est , quod justum & aequum ▪ the law is nothing else , but that which is just and right . if it be otherwise , it is not jus , but injuria , an injurie , but no right . you are pleased to acknowledge a our privileges to be our rights . how then can they be taken from us without injuri●● and it is not lawfull , with the supreme judge , for any prince or court to deal injuriously , with the meanest , that are subject to them . justice it is , to give to every man his own . injustice then it must needs be , to spoil any man of that , which is his , either by the laws of god or man. suppose us to be in equall balance with our fellow subjects , and that we have no other right to our lands and privileges , but by the laws of the realm : what reason can be given , why we should not peaceably enjoy , what is ours , by the law of the land , as well as the rest of our fellow subjects ? we have the same right ; and why not the same protection ? chap. xiv . whether the lands of the church may be forfeited by the misdemeanour of the clergie . 1. vve shall have reason to work us out of our rights , and law to turn us out of the kings protection . but such reason and law , as may with much ease , and more equitie be returned upon your selves . your reason is this ; because b these rights were indulged to the clergie , for the personall worth of present incumbents . if therefore their successors forfeit them by their ill demeanour , these rights may be taken from them . this is easily resolved , not so easily proved . for the truth is , these rights were not given to particular persons , but to a succession of bishops and priests , and other officers for gods service . or rather , these lands and privileges were given to god and the church , for the maintenance of these offices . my unworthinesse makes not the office the worse ; neither can my wickednesse make a forfeiture of gods inheritance . i may , c with abiathar , justly be deprived of my place , and the benefits thereof ; but the place , and the rights thereof fall not into a premunire ; a good man even d zadok succeeds this traitor abiathar , and enjoyes not onely the office , but all the profits ▪ that belonged thereto . this was solomons justice ; he knew , how to distinguish between the faultie priest , and the faultlesse office . but you are a rooter ; if a twig be in fault , up with b●ai●h and root . this is your justice . but e it is far from the ju● judge of all the world , to root up the righteous with the wicked . and surely we ought to endeavour to be righteous and just , as our heavenly father is just . 2. have you a desire to know , what true justice is ? it is that , f quam uniformen ac simplicem proposuit omnibus deus , not what we fancie , but what to all men god hath proposed uniform , and alike , plain and simple ; such as can admit of no cavill or misconstruction . g where this true justice is wanting , there can be no law , no right . for that which is done by right , is done by law. and that , which is contrary to right , is contrary to law. nothing can be according to law , but what is according to justice . for justice is that , which gives lif● & being to a law. and to say , that this or that is an unjust law , is a flat contradiction : since it is jus à justicia , law hath the latin denomination from justice : r and the greek from rendering to every man , what is just ▪ and meet . and the latin word jus signifies both law and right . an unjust statute therfore there may be , an unjust law there cannot be . ſ n●n enim jura dicenda su●t , vel putanda , iniqua hominum constituta : for the unjust constitutions of men , are not to be called , ●r esteemed laws . and they that frame unjust decrees , are not princes , but tyrants : neither are their subjects , free-men , but slaves . neither can the state , they live in , be called a common-wealth ; since , as scipio africanus observes , and s. austin approves , t respuplica and res populi , the common-weal and the weal of the people , are one and the same . and then is it truly a common-weal , u cum benè ac justè geritur , when it is fairly and justly governed , either by one king , or by a few noblemen , or by all the people . but where the government is unjust , there 's no common-wealth . it is s. austins ; x vbi justicia non est , non est respublica . take away justice , and farewell republick . for how can that be for the generall good of all , where justice is not equally distributed to all of whatsoever profession . 3. but y there 's a great deal of difference ( say you ) betweene an ingagement made to persons , on valuable consideration , and that which is made gratis to an office or society subservient to publike good . so much difference indeed there is , that the setling of land upon a corporation is more firme then any entaile upon a familie ; because persons dye , but corporations live . if gratis make the difference in your opinion , it makes none in law : for that land ●● as much mine , which is conferred upon me by deed of gift , as that which is conveyed to me by purchase . what difference , i pray you , between lands , purchased by the society of goldsmiths , and such as are freely given to that company ? are not the later as much theirs , as the purchased lands ? are they not alike settled by the same law , & justified alike by the same law ? and z of this very sort is this ingagement to the english clergie . and never a whit the worse for that . for of this sort is that magnificent maintenance , which was settled upon the tribe of levi , by god himself : all given gratis . a and of this sort are the ingagements made to them by darius king of persia . and yet b whosoever shall alter this word , let the timber be pulled down from his house , and being set up , let him be hanged theron : and for this let his house be made a dunghill . and the god , that hath caused his name to dwell there , destroy all kings and people , that shall put their hand to alter and to destroy this house of god. of this sort also were c the silver and gold , which were freely offered by king artaxerxes and his counsellers , by the preists and people to the god of israel , for the house of god. of this sort also was d the relaxation of all toll , tribute , & custome to the preists and levites ; a free gift . and yet e whosoever will not do the law of god and of the king , in these things , let judgement be speedily executed upon him , whether it be 1 unto death , or 2 to banishment or 3 to confiscation of goods , or 4 to imprisonment . and was not this priviledge granted , for the grace and favour that f shesbazzar and g ezra found in the eyes of those kings ? or , if you will , for their personall worth ? and yet this grant is called not onely the law of the king , but the law of god : and delivered so to posterity by h ezra aready scribe in the law of moses , and the penman of god. 4. suppose we also , that i these rights were indulged for the personall worth of the present incumbents ; may they therfore be alienated , because some succeeding officers demean themselves amisse ? so say you ; but you are wide of the marke . these lands and immunities were not made to any particular persons , but to the office or society ; or to god for their use . what is given to a person for life , goes not to the office , but dyes with the person . but what is settled upon an office , lives with the office. k and i have manifested , that episcopacy is a living office ; an office , that must last , while christ hath a church on earth . persons may forfeit their place , and the benefits arising from thence to their incumbency ; but the office , if necessary , must continue . l judas by transgression fell from his office ; but the office fell not with him ; no , m another , a saint may , and must take his bishopship , or apostleship , and the rights that belong thereto . 5. however then some such favours may be granted to an office , with relation to the personall worth of the present incumbent , yet being given to promote the usefulnesse of the office , it shall be no movable ; it is fixed ( as the lawyers speak ) to the freehold , and shall abide , till the office be found uselesse , and therefore abolisht . but till then n it is injustice to alter , or alienate those rights , without which the usefulnesse of that office cannot be so well promoted . injustice it is , to take that away , which you never gave , and is so usefull for the office , let the officers fault be what it will. it is wild work to punish the office for the person : this is none of gods course . o the sons of eli were as bad as bad might be ; god destroyeth them , but not the office , neither yet doth he fleece it . but before i passe further , i must make this observation : the quarrell you picke with the clergie , to rob them of their lands and priviledges , will suite with any society , or corporation . if it shall please your great masters to say , that the drapers , or grocers , or that great corporation of london have so demeaned themselves , that they have forfeited their lands and immunities , up they go ; they shall be in the same state with us . they that uphold their power by the sword , do usually what they list , not what they ought . if parliaments might utterly be abolished for misdemeanour and miscarriage , i presume , this iland should never see another parliament . 6. you speake largely p of the parliaments power . it is out of my element , and i am tender to meddle with it . i know t is large in a free and full convention , when the members constitutive are present : but how large , i shall leave it to the learned of the law to define . yet this i dare say , whatever their power be , they cannot make that just , which is unjust ; nor that truth , which is a lie . q ahab and jezabel had power to over-rule the elders and nobles of jezreel ; and to take away both naboths vineyard and life , without any cause at all . you will not , i hope , justifie any such power , or act. 't is true ; naboth hath lost all at a blow ; but it was by tyranny , not by law : because there was no equity in the sentence . and yet there were as good witnesses came against naboth , as any appeare against episcopacy . 7. but you have been at the bar of late , and have learned a law distinction , which neither scripture , nor fathers , nor scholmen ever taught you , and this it is . r an ingagement may be gone in law , though not in equity . and that an order of parliament will be valid in law , though injurious . how ? valid in law , though injurious ? the learned in the law deny , that an order of parliament is valid in law. and some of their own creatures in their circuits have rejected some orders from westminster , because they were contrary to law. but you , my masters , that have been so forward with your purses , bewar . ſ he speaks of summs of mony , borrowed upon the publique faith , for publique good : for t the parliament may ordain release of the ingagement . here 's divinity without equity or conscience . but it 's like the rest . 8. gone in law ( saith this conscientious preacher ) , not in equity ; valid in law , though injurious . behold law without equity ; a law , and yet injurious . god blesse me from such law , and such divinity . i ever thought , that law and equity had gone together , and that law could not have stood with injurie : since ( as s. austine speaks ) u jus & injuria contraria sunt , law and injurie are contraries ; and can no more consist then light and darknesse . and if with x thomas , and y the london ministers , jus be that , which is prescribed , or measured by law ; then either that is no law , which prescribes , what is not right ; or else injurie shall be right , because it is prescribed by law. i hope , you are not of this mind . 9. if the fathers were not quite out of date , i could tell you , what s. austine saith . and yet why may not i make use of him as well as your fellow ministers of london ? behold then the very case . z quid si a liquis condat jus iniquum ? what if any shall make an unjust law , a law without equity ? is not the case put right ? if it be so , take his resolution . a nec jus dicendum est , si injustum est . if it be unjust , it is not to be named a law. and yet with you it shall be a law though injurious . thus your case of conscience is resolved against conscience ; for all injurie , if understood , is against conscience . surely the parliament is much beholding to you , to stretch your conscience , and their fringes so much against conscience . for you justifie a power in them to do injurie ; and not onely so , but a power to make laws , to justifie this injurie . and yet b in them this shall be no tyrannous invasion on any societies rights , because done by a parliament . that title is a salvo for all blemishes and injuries . no tyranny , no invasion , if done by a parliament : as if they were infallible , and could not erre ; impeccable , and could not do amisse . or as if god himself did alter his own laws , that their alterations might be irreprovable . 10. i must confesse , the next is a very conscientious proposition , of another die ; and this it is . c if there be no injury , the king and parliament may cancell any obligation . without peradventure they may . but what makes that so there ? as ther 's no question of power in the parliament , to ordain an injurious order , or a law without equity : so if there be no injury &c. what so , and no otherwise ? then have they no power at all to cancell any obligation , because the parliament hath no power to make a law without equity . if this do not follow , let men of understanding judge . and if you have no better argument to prove , that it is lawfull for the king and parliament to abrogate the immunities , and to take away the lands of the clergie , you will never be able to approve the lawfulnesse thereof . 11. what is according to law , true law , is lawfull ; and what is lawfull , is according to law. if lawfull , not injurious ; if injurious , not lawfull , not valid in law : since nothing is valid in law , that is injurious . to what purpose then are those words ; d the abrogation will be just , as well as legall , there will be no injury done ? surely none , where law is of force ; for where law is , there can be no injustice countenanced . but where your law bears sway , an order may be legal , though injurious ; for your words are , e the order would be valid in law , though injurious . 12. and as for f forfeiture by miscariage , the forfeiture in justice must fall upon him , that miscarries , that is , upon the person , not upon the office ; for an office duely settled can no more make a forfeiture , then it can miscarrie . such an office is episcopacy , which was duely settled by christ himself . and i hope you have not so far forgotten your selfe , as to say , that an office immediately instituted by our blessed saviour can run into a forfeiture by miscarriage . what reason can you give , why that should suffer , that cannot erre ; that never offended ? this is none of gods justice . and it is well known to the wise , that bishops hold their lands , revenues , and immunities not as granted to their persons , but as annexed to the office for the continuall and comfortable maintenance thereof . our religious predecessors had learned of s. paul , that g no man feedeth a flock , but he eateth of the milk of the flock . and that h it is the dutie of the gentiles to minister unto them in carnall things , of whose spirituall things they have been made partakers . indeed i he makes a wonder , that any man should doubt of it ; for how can the office be maintained without means ? surely , though k s. paul did sometimes worke with his own hands , that he might not be chargeable to new converts ; yet he telleth the corinthians , that l he robbed other churches in taking wages of them , to do the church of corinth service . yea this apostle justifies , that m he hath power to eat and drinke of their charge , and to n live upon their cost . and that o he wronged them , when he did otherwise . 13. we confesse , that p the office was provided for publick good ; and that those , which are of the office neither hold , nor ought to hold any thing but for publick good . is the ministery lawfull , or no ? was it settled by christ , or no ? q your london ministers have concluded for the divine right of ministers , or pastors , and teachers : and i know , you subscribe to their doctrine . there may not then be any forfeiture of the ministery , since the ordinance of christ cannot be forfeited by the miscarriage of man ; that 's out of all peradventure : of priviledges perchance there may be a forfeiture , where they prove prejudiciall to the publick good . but if and where never prove any thing , unlesse you can justifie , that these priviledges have been prejudiciall to this church and state. 14. our religious predecessors began the great charter with r concessimus deo , first of all we have granted to god , and by this our present charter have confirmed for us , and for our heires for ever , that the church of england be free ; and that it have all her rights entire , and her liberties unhurt . ſ william the conqueror began his raign with confirming the liberties and priviledges of the church . and he gives this reason for it , t quia per eam & rex & regnum , solidum habent subsistendi fundamentum ; because both king and kingdome have by the church a solid foundation for their subsistence . had that prince been alwaies of the same mind , he had never defiled his hands with sacriledge , nor plunged himselfe and issue into so deepe a curse . for after he began to ransake churches , to rifle monasteries , and to expose holy ground to wild beasts , and church-lands to his pleasure , he and his became most unfortunate . he rips up the bowels of the church his mother ; and sucks her blood : and the son of his loines rebels against him , beats him , and draws blood from him . the conqueror turns god out of his inheritance , and his sonne robert endeavours to do the same to him . what afterwards befell him , and all his issue , i shall not need to relate , u mr. spelman hath lately saved me that labour ; to him i remit you . in whose treatise you may briefly see the lamentable end of all that great conquerors posterity . to this i shall adde , & wish all my countrie men to observe , that in the strictnesse of reformation episcopacy was continued , as most usefull for the church . 15. but though episcopacy have not been prejudiciall heretofore , it is likely now to prove so . for unlesse they degrade themselves , unlesse they will patiently x part with their wealth and honour , and lay down their miters , the crown is like to runne an hazard , and the whole land be brought to nothing but misery . i am sorrie to read these lines from a professed preacher of the word of god ; for so you stile your self . and yet i am glad , you deale so fairely with us , as to give us notice , what hath been the cause of your factious preaching , the countries and citys tumults , and this detestable and deplorable rebellion ? 1 the bishops great wealth , 2 their honour , and 3 their miters : these three 1 their wealth they are already stripped of ; 2 their honour lies in the du● ; and 3 their miters have not been seen many a faire yeer , unlesse it be upon their armes . we know no more what a miter is , then a bishop knows what great wealth is ; by speculation meerly . few of them have gained so much by the church , as their breeding cost their parents . and yet the clergie is the onely profession repined at . 16. you should have done well , mutatis mutandis , to have directed this passage to the parliament with this small alteration . i hope , you will not be so tenacious of that wealth , and honour , you have gained in these tumultuous times , as to let the crown run an hazard , rather then lay down this usurped power , and indanger the whole land to be brought to nothing , rather then your selves to moderation . o , that they would bow down their ears in time , and embrace this counsell ; then might they yet heal the sores of this shaking land ; and save their own souls . but the blame and danger are layed upon those , that least deserve it ; that stood in the gap , as long as possibly they could , to avert schisme , heresie , blasphemie , atheisme , rebellion , & bloodshed . all which , since the bishops have been stripped of their honour and power , have overspread the face of this land. 17. suppose , the bishops were faulty , shall god be turned out of his possessions , because his servants are to blame ? mr. selden can tell you of a charter of king edgar , which will teach you to distinguish between god and man ; between gods right , and mans fault . a inviolabilis stet monasterei winton libertas ; b although the abbot , or any of the covent , through the incitement of satan , fall into sin , let the liberty of winchester monastery stand inviolable ; because god , who possesseth the plentifull munificence of this privilege , as also the place , with the whole family of monks , and all the lands belonging to that holy monastery , never committed sin , neither will in future times commit any . let therefore this liberty , or privilege , be eternall , because god the possessor of this liberty is eternall . the same say all good men for , though the bishop be faulty , god is not , cannot be . the possessions therefore , and rights of the church must stand inviolable . the faults are the bishops , the lands are gods. let not god suffer for the bishops irregular behaviour . let the bishop be deprived of his place and profits , but not god of his lands . c episcopatum ejus accipiat alter , according to the holy ghosts prescription , let another , a good man , take his bishoprick , that gods service may be duely celebrated , his name glorified , and christs flock faithfully provided for . 18. but say we , what can be said , the bishops are to blame , and must be brought to moderation . and how must this be done ? by being brought to just nothing . for , according to your doctrine , episcopy must be abrogated , and their lands alienated . this we simple men take to be extirpation , or annihilation . but such discreet , conscionable men , as you are , know it to be but moderation . should god return this moderation upon your heads , the presbyteriall government would come to , what it should be , even to nothing . 19. well , their wealth , their honour , and their miters are in fault : and the bishops must be corrected , for not laying down all these at this blessed parliaments feet , to redeem the kings crown . good king , he suffers for the bishops obstinacy ; and they , poore men , have parted with all , but what they may not part with , namely , their fidelitie to god and the king. have you not alreadie dis-roabed them of their honors ? have you not plundred their houses , and seized their lands ? have you not made them house-lesse , harbourlesse , not able to keep a servant ? what would you more ? but , let me tell you , your great masters might have purchased better houses and lands at a cheaper rate . this they will be sensible of , when the accounts are cast up as well elsewhere , as at london . 20. the bishops wealth , honor , and miters were your aim ; these you have preached for , these you have fought for ; what would you more ? all these your masters have , and the crown to boot ; and yet not quiet . indeed all these thus gained will not afford a quiet conscience . that there may be some shew of legality , y the king must get the clergies consent , and the bishops must lay down their miters . and then 't will passe for currant , that these acts were passed by their own consent , and so no wrong done . z volenti non fit injuria . true it is , undone they are without consent : but if they consent , they undo themselves , and wrong their souls . and a madnesse it were to be chronicled , if i should cut mine own throat , to save my enemie the labour . how then can i give away gods inheritance to the edomites & ishmalites , lest perchance they enter forcibly upon it ? and yet the bishops are much to blame , if they will not do this : if not , the crown will run an hazard , and the whole land be brought to ruine . 21. what is to be done in this case ? surely if the bishops knew themselves guilty of the difference betweene the king and his subjects , god forbid , but they should be willing to part with all , they may lawfully part with ; and a be earnest with jonah , that they might be cast into the sea , to allay this dangerous storme , if that would do it . but b what is gods and the churches , they cannot give away , or alienate . no , no , saith s. ambrose , i cannot deliver up that , which i have received to preserve , not to betray . the lands of the church they may take , if they please . imperatori non dono , sed non nego . i give them not to the emperour , but i deny them not . c i withstand him not ; i use no violence . d what i do , is for the emperours good ; quia nec mihi expediret tradere , necilli accipere ; because it would be neither safe for me to give them up , nor for him to receive them . what beseemes a free preist , i advise freely ; si vult sibi esse consultum , recedat à christi injuriâ ; if he desire to prosper , let him forbear to wrong christ . observe what belongs to the church , is christs , not the bishops . if any part of it be diminished , the wrong is done to god , and not to man. e ananias layed down his possession at the apostles feet ; but kept back part of the price . here was wrong done ; but to whom , think you ? not to the apostles ; no : f he lyed not unto men , but unto god ; he couzen'd god , and not man. this was the moderation of s. peter , and s. ambrose ; and we may not be drawn from this moderation . advise your great masters to embrace so much moderation ; as to wrong no man , but g to give unto caesar , what belongs to caesar , and to god , what belongs unto god. till then , however they may seem to prosper , they will never be secure . chap. xv. whether it be lawfull to take away the bishops lands , and to confer them upon the presbytery . 1. the church at this present , is much like her h saviour hanging between two theeves : but in so much the worse case , because neither of these are for our saviour . one , the independent , is wholly for stripping the church of all settled maintenance : with him the minister is to rely meerly upon the peoples benevolence . and reason good ; for he is no longer a minister , then it pleaseth that congregation . but the other , the presbyterian is like the chough in the fable , that would faine prank up himself with other birds feathers . i the bishops lands and revenues must be diverted , & divided , to maintaine parochiall pastors ; so you call them . k sacriledge you condemne ; but theft you like well of , so you and your fellow presbyterians may be gainers . quocunque modo rem , is profitable doctrine ; so you may have it , you care not , how you come by it , nor who smarts for it . l the man of jerusalem fel into such hands . 2. m prelacy must be abolisht ; that 's agreed upon . so far you go with your parliament , but you are against seizing of the prelates revenues , to private , or civill interest . that is , as i conceive , to any particular mans use , or for the service of the state ; as ye call it . i am just of your mind , and resolve with you , that this kind of impropriation could want neither staine , nor guilt . such was that in the dayes of , k. henry the eight ; which was deservedly cried out of , all the christian world over . but cry out you and your mr. beza with your stentorian voices , upon this n detestable sacriledge , your good masters are resolved upon the question , and have exposed the bishops lands to sale . so they may have these revenues to dispose of , they will venter stain , guilt , and curse too , say what ye can . 3. i must confesse , you would faine set a faire glosse upon this detestable act . you would have o those large revenues ( as you are pleased to call them ) to be passed over from the fathers of the church , to the sons of the church ; from the bishops to parochiall pastors , or presbyters . i call these parochiall pastors , sons of the church : because , though they be called fathers in respect of their parishioners ; yet are they but sons in respect of bishops , from whom they have their orders , and by whom , as ministers , they are begotten . for presbyters have not power to ordain a deacon , much lesse to ordain a presbyter ; as p hath been already manifested , & shall be more fully , if god give me life and leave , to examine the divine right of church government . 4. but since q these revenues must be diverted , or passed over from the fathers to the sons , to supply them with sufficient maintenance , who shall make the conveiance ? and when the conveiance is drawn with all the skill that may be , it is nothing worth , till the proprietary , the true owner give his consent , and confirme it . desire you to know , who is the true owner ? look upon god , he hath accepted them , and taken possession of them ; his they are by deed of gift . the charters usually run thus ; concessi , offero , confirmavi deo & ecclesiae , i grant , offer , or confirme to god and the church , such and such lands , mannors , or messuages . when they are thus offered , god accepts of the gift , and sets this stamp upon them , * they offered them before the lord , therefore they are hallowed . and again , r nothing devoted , or separated from the common use , that a man shall devote unto the lord ( whether it be man , or beast , or land of his inheritance ) may be sold , or redeemed : every devoted thing is most holy unto the lord . when it is once seperated from common use , it may no more return to common use ; since ( as your geneva note tells us ) ſ it is dedicated to the lord with a curse to him , that doth turn it to his private use . and of this curse they have been sensible , that have turned it to such use . observable therefore it is , that t this word , which we here translate devoted , or dedicated , signifi●s properly , destroyed , quia destructio imminet usurpan●il us illa , because destruction hangs over their heads , that usurp them . jos . 7. 1. &c. we translate this word accuesed : and u ● cu●se fell upon achan openly for medling with the accursed or devoted silver , and gold , and a costly garment . god made a●●ma● example of his justice to all posterity , that so the dreadfull end of him and all his , might strike a terrour into the hearts of all covetous persons ; that they medle not with that , which is dedicated to the lord. 5. achans fault was , that x he clancularily stole it , and dissembled , and put it among his own stuffe . but what you do shall be in publike , enacted by parliament ; and they shall not be seized to private or civill interest . your purpose is to have them diverted , or settled upon your selves , and your fellow presbyters , who are no private or civill persons . oh , no , you are the men , by whom the work of the ministery is cheifly performed . and yet i cannot but observe , that here is a diversion ; and what is diverted , runs not in the right channel , it is enforced another way . but y this ( you say ) will not be to ruine , but to rectifie the devotion of former ages , and turn pompe into use , and impediments into helps . there needs no proofe for this , ipse dixit , mr. geree hath delivered this in the pulpit ; it is enough , so it come from him , who is so well skilled in devotion , and able to rectifie former ages . but i am none of your credulous followers ; my faith is not pinned to your sleeve . indeed , to deale plainly with you , i am of another mind , and suppose , i have good reason for it . 6. that revenues were very anciently settled upon the church , can be no new thing to them , that are skilled in councels , fathers , and church history . but who were these lands settled upon ? to whose trust were these committed ? z that constantine settled revenues upon the bishops , is too too evident to be denyed . that the bishops had houses and lands long before constantines time , is manifest by the councell of angur , can. 15. as also by that of a paulus samosatenus ; whom the emperor aurelian ejected out of the episcopall house , after he had been deprived of his bishoprick of antioch by a councell of bishops . b in s. cyprians time and writings we read that the church was endowed with means . a little higher we may go in our own country , c we find king lucius in the yeer of grace 187. settling possessions upon the church . 7. neither were these means very small ; as some conceive . d s. austine was a gentleman well desended , and had a faire estate left him . and yet he professeth , that e the possessions of his bishoprick of hippo , were twenty times more then the lands of his inheritance . and yet his was none of the richest bishoppricks in africk . such was the devotion of former áges . 8. of these revenues the bishops had the profits ; they did f uti frui rebus ecclesiae ( as s. austin speaks ) tanquam possessores & domini ; they were gods trustees ; and yet as possessors and lords they disposed of the church goods . g at his see the government of the lands and oblations belonged to him ; but h to some of his clergie he committed the charge both of the one and of the other . but so , that once a yeer at least , he had an account from them , as from his stewards . i at his charge , as it were , the presbyters and other clerks of that church were fed and clad . indeed k the lands and goods of the church were so at the bishops disposing , that the steward might not distribute any of them , as he thought meet , but as the bishop directed him . this was not onely by custome , but by canon , that the bishop have 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 power to dispose the goods of the church upon the needie . and l if it happened , that any of the lands were alienated , or sold in the vacancie , it was in the succeeding bishops power to ratifie or make void the sale . 9. neither did the bishops innovate any thing therein ; they followed the steps of the prime and apostolick church ; as is to be seen apost . can. 41. and in the acts. there we read , that the christians , who were so charitably minded , m sold their lands , or houses , and layed the prices thereof ( not at the disciples , not at the presbyters , but ) at the apostles feet . after this indeed n the disciples choose out men of honest report , full of the holy ghost , and of wisdom , that might dispose of these legacies to such , as were to be relieved by the church stock . but this they did not of their own heads , but at the apostles directions , who reserved this power to themselves . the text justifies it ; o whom we may appoint over this businesse . so the apostles . hence is it , that s. paul commanded timothy , bishop of ephesus , to take care , that the presbyters be well provided for : p let the presbyters , that rule well , be counted worthy of double honor , of double maintenance . and to what purpose was this charge to timothy , unlesse he were to provide for the presbyters of his church ? i am certain , that it is most consonant to common sense , nature , and scripture , that q parents provide for their children , and not children for the parents . and is it not reason , that he , who sets the presbyters on work , should pay them their wages ? but bishop timothy was to set them on work ; r those things , that thou hast heard ( or learned ) of me , the same commit thou to faithfull men , who shall be able to teach others . and ſ charge them , that they teach no other doctrine then this . but if they do , what then ? t withdraw thy self from them . that is , eat not with them , let them not come to thy table , allow them no maintenance . what counsell the apostles gave others , without question they observed themselves . but s. paul commands , that u we eat not with open and notorious sinners ; and s. john , that we x receive not deceitfull preachers into our houses . the same rule then they observed themselves . for in those times y the bishop and his presbyters did usually live in the same house , and eat at the same table . in those times the bishops provided for the presbyters ; but our start up presbytery will so provide , that the bishops shall have just nothing left them to relieve their own wants ; all must be for mr. presbyter . 10. and why so ? because there are many z defective parishes in england , which want suffi●ient maintenance to supply their parochiall pastors with . but from whence comes this defect , or want of maintenance ? surely not from the bishops , not from their greedinesse , and wretchlesnesse : but from that detestable sacriledge ( a as beza and you call it ) which was by parliament acted and ratified under the reign of king henry viii . at the dissolution of abbeys the appropriations of tithes were taken into lay-mens hands ; which heretofore were appropriated and annexed to this or that particular religious house ; b which house ( according to mr. spelman ) was the perpetuall incumbent parson of each of those rectories , and did duely officiate the cure , by one of their own fraternity . then were there few , or no defective parishes . but upon these new statutes the lay appropriatoes swept all into their own custody and possession . from hence ariseth the want of congruous maintenance , in too many parishes , for him , or them , that serve those cures . and shall bishops smart for it , when lay-men have done the mischief , and purse up the profits ? dat veniam corvis , vexat censura columbas ; when the laity offends , the clergie suffers . is this justice ? but so the parliament do it , it is with you c valid in law , though injurious . but god and you are of severall minds . 11. nay , if this be done , if bishops lands be removed to presbyters , d there will be no danger of sacrilege . how prove you that ? e this ( say you ) will not be to ruine , but to rectifie the devotion of former ages , and turn pomp into use , and impediments into helps . this is somewhat like cardinall wolseys pretence , who dissolved fourty small monasteries of ignorant silly monks , to erect two goodly colleges , for the breeding up of learned and industrious divines . was not this to turn impediments into helps ? lo , he removed lazie drones , that did little but eat , and drink , and sleep ; that so learned men might be provided for , who would labour in the word and doctrine , and might be able to do church and state good service . was not this as fair a pretence as yours , or as any you can invent ? and how was this accepted of ? god , that forbids theft , will no more endure the offering gained by theft , f then by adultery . one of his colledges dyes in the conception ; the other remains unfinished to this day : and it pities me to see her foundations under rubbish . and a misery it is to take into consideration the ruine of this man , as also of that king and pope , who gave him licence to commit this sin . this attempt and grant opened a gap to the most profuse sacrilege , that ever christian nation , before that time , had been acquainted with . and yet , for ought i find , by this particular sacrilege there came no gain into any of their private purses . 12. but , i beseech you , what is the meaning of these words , this will turn pomp into use ? what your intent is , perchance i may gesse : but to take them according to the plain and literall sense , i can make no other construction of them , then this : if the prelates revenues were diverted , to supply with sufficient maintenance all those parochiall pastors , that want congruous maintenance , this would turn pomp into use . that is ; that pomp , which the prelates made no use of , the presbyterians would turn into use . if this be not the grammaticall sense , i appeal to any rationall man. and their essay in the divine right of church government , shews what their proceedings would prove . i must confesse , ye have marvellously improved the impediments , and turned them into helps . for the power and jurisdiction of bishops , which were the main impediments to schisme and heresie , you have covenanted to root up ; and have brought in all the helps , that may be , to further irreligion , and atheisme . while the bishops had power , heresies were rarae nantes , seldom seen , and suddenly supprest , if any such crept in . but now they flowe in by shoals , and have pulpits and presses cloyed with them . does not your own mr. edwards professe , that never was there such plenty of sects and heresies ? as many more in truth , as ever the church knew in former ages . onely , as g by julian the apostata , both pulpits , and presses are locked up to the orthodox ; no coming there for them , lest perchance they infect the auditories with sound and apostolike doctrine . 13. parochiall pastors are most necessary men ; by them the work of the ministery is chiefly to be performed . this is true , and not true . true in the fathers sense ; not in yours . h in the fathers sense a pastor is a bishop strictly so called , as by his order he is differenced from a presbyter ; and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is no petty countrey or citie parish ; i it is a whole citie , with the precincts and countrey adjoyning , which were under the jurisdiction of the citie , and repaired thither for justice , if differences arose . with them paraecia was the same , that a diocese is with us . so a parochiall pastor , in the ancient and church sense , is a diocesan bishop : and in this sense , the work of the ministery is chiefly performed by the parochiall pastor . this pastor indeed can perform all ministeriall acts ; divers of which are clean out of a presbyters power . and yet you say , that by the parochiall pastor , who is with you but a presbyter , the work of the ministery is chiefly performed . not so , my good brother not so , not that work , without which the church cannot possibly subsist . and that is twofold ; first k the ordering of the church ; and 2ly , ordeining of presbyters . the chief works of the ministery , according to st. paul , are to 1 regular the church , and to 2 beget those , by whom the sacraments may be administred , and absolution pronounced . but these works may not , cannot be done by any , or many presbyters . in your sense therefore this proposition is false . 14. but why cheifly ? what , because presbyters offer up the prayers and supplications of the church ? because they are the usuall preachers , and dispensers of the sacraments ? these indeed are the most usuall and daily offices , and very necessary ; but i dare not say , that by them these offices are cheifly discharged . what say you to that principle of reason , l propter quod aliquid est tale , illud est magis tale ? especially if it be such an efficient or ministeriall cause , without which , in the ordinary way , there can be no such thing . but by a bishop a presbyter is made a minister of these holy duties ; & in the ordinary way , without him he could not be a presbyter . the bishop then doth cheifly performe the work of the ministery . the reason is , because illo mediante by his means , or mediation , that is done , which without him could not be done . the work of justice is usually performed by the justice of the severall benches . but i presume , you will not say cheifly ; that you will reserve to the parliament ; since you have sworne that to be m the supreme judicatorie of this kingdome . and in this treatise you have concluded , that n the parliament is the supreme court , by which all other courts are to be regulated . and as all courts are to be regulated by parliament , so are all presbyters to be guided by their own bishop . 15. cheifly , say you ; onely , saith your ordinance for ordination ; wherein you make the presbyter the onely minister . in your solemne league and covenant , ye resolve and vow o the extirpation of arch-bishops and bishops . and in both ye lay the whole work upon the presbytery ; as if they were the men , that could discharge all sacred and ministerial duties . no such matter ; the contrary is manifested . can any man imagine , that a common souldier , or an ordinary marriner , doth performe the cheife work in an army , or ship , because they take the greater toile to the outward eye ? no , no ; it is the pilot in a ship , the colonel in a regiment , the admirall in a navy , and the generall in an army , that discharge the cheife duties . without these there would be wise worke by sea or land. ev●ry one , that can pull a gable , or manage an oare , is not fit to be a pilot. every man that can and dare fight , and charge with courage , is not fit to be a commander . but the church is both a ship , and an armie . and i dare say , that every one , that can talke lavishly , or make a rhetoricall flourish in the pulpit , is not fit to be a bishop , or governour , in the church of christ . and yet q 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for this cause left i thee in creet , that thou shouldest set in order the things , that are wanting , & ordain presbyters in every city . these are the duties of a bishop ; without which the church will suddenly be out of frame , and crumble into nothing . 16. in a ship , or regiment , no man comes to sit at the stern , no man attempts the cheife command , the first day ; if he do , both ship and regiment suffer for it . no ; they are trained up in their severall professions , and by degrees they rise till they come to the highest . thus was it in the ancient , and thus is it in the present church . if any be suddenly raised to a bishoprick , it is seldom for the good of that diocese . 17. but you and your fellow presbyters want congruous and sufficient maintenance ; down therefore must the bishops ; and their revenues must be divided amongst such good pastors , as you are . the levellers doctrine right ; the nobility and gentrey have too much , & the godly of the land to little : all therefore must be shared , that jack and tom may have a congrurus maintenance . if the great men of the land will not yeeld to this , the parliament shall be garbled , the nobility and gentry shall be turned aside ; and then look for a new covenant , and a fresh extirpation . dukes descend from profane esau ; marquesses , earles , vicounts , &c. are but heathenish titles , invented by the children of darknesse , and the children of light defie them . what ? are we not all adams sons ? are we not brethren in christ ? is it not fit , that we should all have share , and share like , as had the children of israel in the land of promise ? as long as the church onely was strook at , it was well liked of ; but now patience perforce , we must be leveled both in church and state. we shall find , that there is such a sympathy between them in all christian common-wealths , that they stand and fall , swimme and sink together . 18. what ? talke we of levelling ? that is enough to destroy the state and face of a kingdome . but in your project there will be no danger . how ? no danger ? no danger , ( say you ) of sacriledge . no danger in the subversion of the church ? surely this must be ruine to episcopacy , and consequently to the church . for no bishop , no church . r ecclesia enim super episcopos constituitur ; for the church is founded and settled upon bishops . so s. cyprian . think not , that we exclude christ . christ it is that layd the foundation , and settled the church so . and it is not for man to unsettle it , or to lay another , a new foundation . for other foundation can no man lay , then that is layed by jesus christ . but ſ we are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets . and bishops and apostles , are of the same order ; they are one and the same . t apostolos , id est , episcopos & praepositos dominus elegit . so s. cyprian , the lord made choice of apostles , that is of bishops & prelates . when therefore our saviour founded the church upon the apostles , he founded it upon bishops . who dare then after this foundation ? he that endeavours it , doth not build , but destroy the church . 19. is there no danger of sacriledge in robbing father and mother ? the bishop your father , and the church your mother ? for as in the church you were born anew of water and the holy ghost ; so if you be a presbyter , as a presbyter you have your being from a bishop ; or else you have no such being . but you return , that ye rob not the church : for you intend , that these revenues shall be settled upon church-men ; that is , upon presbyters . suppose , you rob but one , but your father , the sacriledge is detestable . for doth not the lord say , u who so robbeth his father , or mother , and saith it is no transgression ; the same is the companion of a murtherer . but to make the sacriledge more odious , i shall manifest , that ye have not onely robbed your father , but your mother also . the bishop your father is the husband to his particular church ; if then you rob him of his meanes , who will succeed in his roome , and become an husband to that church ? for though there be a thousand presbyters in a diocese , yet , x if she be without a bishop , that church is a widow . so that great councell of chalcedon . thus ye rob the bishop of his means , & that church of her husband . and wile a widow , she can bring forth but a bastard brood . consider that . 20. upon these motives i must tell you , that if his majestie shall gratifie either the parliament , or the assembly , in the abolition of episcopacy , and in sacrificing the church-lands to your , or their sacrilegious avarice , it will be such y a work , for which following generations shall have just cause to pitie , & lament him , that so good a man should either be cheated , or enforced into so foule a sin . his children and the whole kingdome would rue it ; and the generations to come ( unlesse the world turn presbyterian ) will speak of him as of king henry the eight : with this difference , that king henry wilfully plunged himself into this sin , and king charles was driven into it by an atheisticall and bloody faction . but i am confident , his majestie is seasoned with better principles ; he knows , it was z no excuse for saul , to confesse , that he had sinned , because he was afraid of the people , and obeyed their voice , not gods directions . a this king knew gods word , & rejected it ; god therefore rejected him from being king , and his seed from the throne . a lamentable case , to be frighted by a multitude , out of gods favour , and the crowne . but i hope , you have no saul in hand : our good kings crowne you may cause to totter , but not his resolution . ye may , and have robbed him of his prerogatives , revenues , and liberty : but you cannot imprison , or force his conscience , that will injoy her ancient priviledges , & freedome ; and these disasters shall end in a crowne of glory . his memory shall be honoured in our annals , and his posterity flourish in these thrones . amen , amen . chap. xvi . how far forth the king ought to protect the church and bishops . 1. it is confessed to my hand , that b the king is ingaged to his power , to protect the bishops , and their priviledges ; as every good king ought in right to protect & defend the bishops & churches under their government . reason requires no more ; and religion requires so much . for by that god , whom we serve , kings are made guardians , and c nursing fathers to the church ; and by the same god this ingagement is put upon them . not by man , not d by the author , as you seem to intimate ; nor yet by the bishops . one of the bishops indeed , in the behalfe of his brethren , and the whole clergie , humbly beseecheth his majestie to protect and defend to them , and to the churches committed to their charge , all canonicall priviledges , and due law and justice . the king with a willing and devout heart premiseth , to be their protector , and defender to his power , by the assistance of god. and afterwards at the communion table , he makes a solemne oath , upon gods own book , to observe the premises . this ingagement then is not put upon the king , but with a willing heart he takes it upon himselfe ; acknowledging that he ought to do so , if he be a good king. yea , ( saith sir edward coke ) e the king is bound and sworn to the observation and keeping of magna charta . his majestie then is but intreated to do , what he is sworne and bound to do . and since sworne and bound , he may not with a safe conscience give them up to the f wild boares of the forrest to root up the plants , or suffer the wild beasts of the field to devour this vine , g which the lords right hand hath planted . 2. that h the king is bound no further to exercise his power in the protection of the church , then he can do it without sinning against god , is most undoubtedly true : and it were not the part of a christian to desire more . for we know , that i the king receives his power from god , which is to be used , not against , but for god. not to protect the church to his power , is to break his oath , it is to desert that trust which god hath committed to his charge : and is not this to sin against god ? in the discharge of this dutie , he is so far from being injurious to the rest of his people , that if he should forbear it , it would prove the greatest mischeife , that can be imagined , to his people , and to their posterity , in their soules , in their estates ; and a perpetuall infamie to this nation . i need not prove it now , it is already done , cap. 8. sect 10. 11. &c. 3. that k his sacred majestie hath interposed his authority for the bishops , & put forth all the power he hath to preserve them , is that which vexeth your confederacy . and yet you cannot deny , but that every good king is bound in right to do so . what we ought to do , is our bounden duty ; and what we do in right , is justly done . oh , that this had been done in the right time . indeed he is not onely bound , but he finds it more then necessary to protect and preserve them ; for in protecting them , he protects himself , his throne , and his posterity . alas , he was strook at thorough the bishops sides . his wise father descried this long since , l no bishop , no king. what the father spake , his sonne our good king hath found true by woefull experience . his crowne hath sunke with their miters . 4. well , by your own confession , what our gracious king hath done , is right , and what good kings are bound to do , to the extent of their power . thus our good king is justified by his enemies , as m our saviour was by judas . if his majestie have endeavoured to do that , which is right , what are they , that have hindered him from doing it ? have not they done wrong ? how can they excuse themselves before god or man , that have so manacled our betrayed soveraigne , that he cannot do , what good kings are bound in right to do ? is this to be good ? is this to be just ? then have all the saints of god been utterly deceived . 5. n if after all this he must perforce let the bishops fall ; you and your schisme have much to answer for , that have driven him to this necessity . you seem to pitie his good subjects , who with their blood have endeavoured to support episcopacy . their swords were not drawn to maintaine this government , or the religion established ; they never learned to fight for religion . what they did , was done in submission to his majesties just commands , and to manifest their allegiance . but if these be good ; that have indangered their lives to uphold bishops , what are they , i beseech you , that have spent their blaod to root them out ? surely in justifying the former , mr. geree hath condemned the latter ; and when the waspes find it , he must look to his eares : 6. i must confesse , it is an hard case for one man to o ingage his life for the maintenance of other mens privileges . but who did so ? not a man ingaged himself ; but the kings command , the oath of allegiance , and the laws of the land ingaged every good subject , to assist his soveraign to the utmost . the king , according to his oath , endeavoured to maintain the laws of the land , to protect the members of both houses driven from parliament , to support the bishops ; and to suppresse those seditious and sacrilegious persons , which plotted and covenanted the ruine of religion , root and branch . though much the greatest part of the nobility , gentrie , and learned in the law , were deservedly moved to see majestie dethroned and blasphemed ; religion spurned at , and vilified ; the fathers of the church scandalized , and persecuted ; the laws of the kingdom , and liberties of the subject sleighted , and trampled on ; yet not a man of these took up the sword , till he was commanded by him , to whom the laws of the land , and the word of god have committed the power of the sword. this may not be called backwardnesse , or unwillingnesse , but pious discretion , which ever waits upon the soveraigns call . when therefore his majesty had set up his standard , i may truly say , p the governors of our israel offered themselves willingly among the people ; they did the king service to the utmost . had there not been a back-doore to let in a forrein nation , to divide the kings forces ; had not some of q the nobles of judah conspired with tobiah , held intelligence with him , and acquainted him with nehemiahs secrets , there never had been so many thanksgiving dayes , nor so much boasting , that god prospered the cause . god suffered david his own chosen servant , his anointed , and a man after his own heart , to be hunted as a partrige upon the mountains , to be frighted from his throne , and to live like a forlorn man ; and yet in his good time he restored him to his scepter in peace , and subdued the people to him . 7. and whereas you term them others privileges , as if they concerned no man but the clergie ; i dare boldly say , they concern every man , as he is a member of this church and realm . r if we have sown unto you spirituall things , is it a great matter if we reap your carnall things ? and if we reap not your carnall things , how shall we sowe unto you spirituall things ? this is worthy of consideration ; unlesse you have layed aside all care of the soul . have we some privileges , that the laity have not ? they are not ours alone ; they are every mans , that enters into orders . and orders are indifferently proposed to all , of all families whatsoever , so they be sufficiently qualified . high and lowe , noble and ignoble have reaped the benefit of these privileges . i have known some of high birth in orders ; and some of good rank , that have taken sanctuary under a priests coat . and we read of ſ a young man of the tribe of judah , of the most remarkable family , that was glad to turn priest , and to t serve by the yeer for ten shekels of silver , a double suit of apparell , and his victuals . if then our calling suffer , all families suffer in it , and with it . 8. but what if the laws of the land , what if magna charta do oblige all men to stand up for the due observation of these privileges ? if so , then must every man readily acknowledge , that all good subjects are bound to obey his majestie , when he commands that , which the law requires . view we then the words of that great and justly magnified charter , which are these . u reserving to all arch-bishops , bishops , earls , barons , and all persons , as well spirituall as temporall , all their liberties , and free customes , which they have had in times past . and all these customes and liberties aforesaid , which we have granted to be holden within this our realm ; as much as appertaineth to us and our heirs , we shall observe . and all men of this our realm , as well spirituall as temporall ( as much as in them is ) shall likewise observe the same , against all persons . mark that : are we not all , both spirituall and temporall , bound to maintain each others privileges , as much as in us lies ? 9. i know , you will return , that abbots and priors are provided for by the same law ; and yet they have since been taken away by act of parliament . i confesse it : but i shall desire you to observe in the first place , how they prospered , that were the contrivers and procurers of that act. 2ly , i cannot but take notice , that you with your master beza call that disso●ution x detestandum sacrilegium , detestable sacrilege , and such as was cried out of all the christian world over . it is not therefore to be drawn into president . 3ly , consider , i pray you , that y they who did so , are stiled enemies of our soveraign lord the king ▪ and his realm . 4ly , that great * councell of chalcedon , consisting of above 600. bishops , resolves , that no monastery , consecrated with the bishops liking , may be turned to a secular dwelling . and those that suffer any such thing , are lyable to the canonicall censures . 5ly , you will , i hope , make a difference between our saviours institution , and mans invention . bishops are of our saviours own institution , but abbots and priors are titles and orders of mans invention . and yet z hospitalitie , and alms , and other works of charity , for which these fraternities were erected , failed much with them . how those means were imployed , i shall not enquire ; but i am certain , that good and pious men have wished , that the abuses had been pruned off , and that the lands had been disposed of according to the doners intentions . this indeed had been pietie , not sacrilege . 10. how oft have the kings of this realm ingaged themselves to observe magna charta , and to maintain the rights and liberties of the church ? are not these the words of the statute , a we take the prelates and clergie with their possessions , goods , and chattels into our speciall protection and defence ? the princes of this land have bound themselves strictly to keep this great charter ; and have provided , that if any other shall do , or procure to be done , any thing contrary to this charter , it is to be accounted void , as soon as procured . take the words of the charter . b we have granted unto them ( the spirituall and temporal persons of this realm ) on the other part , that neither we , nor our heirs shall procure , or do any thing , whereby the liberties in this charter shall be infringed , or broken . but suppose , they shall make any such grant through ignorance , wilfulnesse , or evill counsell , shall it be of force ? the law saith , no. for it follows immediately ; c and if any thing be procured by any person contrary to the premisses , it shall be holden of no force , ne effect . you and your great contrivers , what have ye laboured for , all this while ? what have ye fought for ? what have ye shed so much blood for ? for wind , nothing but wind . for all the westminster orders and ordinances contrary to this charter , shall be holden of no force , ne effect . you had best then keepe your paper for a more necessary use . 11. and yet you tell his majestie , that d it is not equall to ingage the lives of some to uphold the honour of others . is it equall then , i beseech you , to ingage the lives of some , to destroy the honour and estate of others ? all this while you have been on the destructive part , all for rooting up , what the lords right hand hath planted , and for alienating the lords inheritance . and that ye might effect , what ye have subtilly projected , ye have ingaged the lives of many , who were very unwilling , to uphold the honour of some at westminster , that had overlashed , & ran themselves upon dreadfull rocks . i would to god , the commons of this kingdome would lay it to heart , how e cruell ye have been to many thousands to be indulgent to a few , to uphold the honour of a few . consider , how many thousands in england and ireland have been plundered , sequestred , imprisoned , maimed , and murdered , because they would not submit to the illegall , unjust , and irreligious decrees of the men at westminster . a compleat mercurius rusticus will make after ages stand amazed , and their hearts bleed within them , to consider , that such a nation as this , so blessed with peace and plentie , should be so miserably deluded , as to undoe themselves willfully , and sheath their swords into one anothers bowels , to save a lord and five members from tryall by law. 12. that you may perswade us , some way or other , that the king ought to give up the bishops , and their lands , since he hath hitherto protected them to the utmost of his power , you argue by supposition . f suppose ( say you ) a king put a commander into a city , and give him an oath to maintaine the priviledges of it , and keep it for him to his power : and this commander keeps this towne , till he have no more strength to hold it , unlesse he force the towns-men to armes , against the priviledge , which he hath sworne to maintaine . well , what then ? if this governour now surrender this towne upon composition , doth he violate his oath ? thus far mr. gerees question : what think you of it ? what any man thinks , is no matter ; g mr. geree thinks none will affirme it . and i think , there be many , that will affirme it ; and i am one of that number . good lord , to see , how mr. geree and i differ in opinion ! his is but thought without proof , but i shall give you reason for what i think , and say . 13. if this casuist speake to purpose , as he ought , he speaks of a king of this realme ; and no town within this realme hath any such priviledge , as not to bear armes against the kings enemies ; or not to keep it for his majestie , to the utmost of their power . the reasons are these : first , h these are the kings dominions and countries . 2ly , these towns and cities are part of these dominions . 3ly , the inhabitants and citizens thereof are his majesties subjects . 4ly , i all lands and tenements are holden either mediatly , or immediatly of the king. 5ly , this citie or towne is the kings ; otherwise how could he put a commander into it , and give him an oath to keep it for him ? i speake of towns within these his majesties dominions , which in all writings are called the kings cities , counties , and towns. 6ly , it cannot be imagined , that the kings of this realme would grant any priviledge destructive or dangerous to their owne safety . and we must take notice , that k all liberties at the first were derived from the crown . adde hereunto the severall acts of parliament , wherein l the peers and comminalty confesse themselves to be bound , and make faithfull promise , to aide their soveraigne at all seasons ; as also to assist and defned his , or their , rights , and titles , to the utmost of their power , and therein to spend their bodies , lands and goods , against all persons , whatsoever . but new lords , new laws ; and these statutes are out of date . 14. by this time , i hope , you see , that no towns-men have any such privilege , as to refuse to bear arms in the kings behalf . but they are bound by their allegiance , and the laws of this land to keep those towns for his majestie , & to defend them with all their might against his foes . if then the inhabitants shall be backward , the commander ought to force them to armes : and if he do it not , he violates his oath , and the towns-men their fidelity . and now you may tell your freind , that helped you to this supposition , that he is no skilfull apprentice at law. if then m the kings case be such in this particular , his highnesse may not recede from his oath , nor do any thing contrary thereto . 15. though this may seeme reasonable to sober men , yet n the onely objection ( as you conceive ) which lyeth against this , is ; that though it be not in the kings power to uphold them , yet it is in his power not to consent to their fall . though this be not the onely , yet is it a just objection , or rather a resolution ; which being rightly harkned to , will preserve the king from sin in this particular . for how ever you are so uncivill with his majestie , as to call it o peremtorinesse in him to deny assent to the fall , or abolition of episcopacy ; yet such as are learned to sobriety , know this to be christian prudence , and true fortitude , p not to fear them , that can imprison him , that can rob him of this earthly crowne , and slay his body , but to stand in aw of him , that can slay the soul , that can deprive him of his heavenly crown , and cast him into the infernall pit . oh , q 't is a fearfull thing to fall into the hands of the living god ; we are not therefore to be threatned , or frighted into sin . these things you can presse violently in the pulpit , but now you are beside both pulpit and text , beside modesty and truth . it is justice , religion , and courage , not peremtorinesse , to deny the least assent to sin . that it is sin to yeeld to , or confirme the abolition of episcopacy , is already manifested c. 4. 6. since it is to destroy an ordinance of christ ; which cannot be done without sin . 16. however then he may indanger his own crown , not save their mitres , yet he shall be sure , by denying assent , to save his own soul : for r without consent no sin ; and without sinne no damnation . ſ a woman ravished is free from fornication , because she assents not , but is really enforced ; and yet t he , that commits that sin upon her , must die for it . this is the kings case right : if he yeeld not , this is a rape upon his power , no sin in his person , since no assent . hence is it , that idolatry and oppression in scripture are charged upon kings ; because their assent makes a law. without the kings affirmative every ordinance imposed upon the people is not law , but tyranny ; since it is not legall , but arbitrary . our brethren of scotland say as much . take their words . there can be no law made , and have the force of a law without the king. declaration of the kingdom of scotland . p. 19. 17. that t it is in his majesties power , or not in his power to deny assent to the abolition of bishops , is most certainly true . but we must learn of you to distinguish between a naturall and a morall sense ▪ and then we shall find both true , that he can , and he cannot deny consent . in a naturall sense he may , but in a morall sense he may not . in a naturall sense he may ; because the will cannot be inforced . in a morall sense it is not in his power ; because he cannot now deny consent without sinne . so it is , and it is not in his power , or rather as s. austine speaks , u in potestate est , quod in voluntate esse non debet : that is in our power , which ought not to be in our will ; x the king then hath it in his power to yeeld , or not to yeeld ; because he may do , which he pleaseth . the book of god stands by , and adviseth him to do that , which is right in the sight of god , proposing blessings if he do so ; and menacing curses , if he shall do any thing contrary to gods revealed will. and all this while it doth but instruct & perswade him to do , what he ought and may , when he will. this then being in the kings power , he must take heed , he incline not to sin . 18. i cannot but resolve , that to forsake the naturall sense , if good , is to be unnaturall . to renounce the morall sense is against good manners , and the morall law. if therefore both senses may be kept , we are to preserve them both safe . with confidence therefore , i speake it , that it is not onely in his power , but * it is his dutie to be master of his negative voice , and to deny consent . if he deny consent , he does his dutie , & observes his oath . if he yeeld assent , he breaks his oath , and failes of his dutie . and this will prove no lesse then sin . i have already demonstrated , that episcopacy is agreable to the word of god , and that it is the institution of christ himself . it is sinne therefore to abolish it , or to consent to the abolishing thereof . you neither have , nor can justifie the contrary out of holy writ , or from the ancient and apostolike church . and yet the observations upon the ordinance for ordination have been extant in print above these three years . but you and your assembly rabbines take no notice of it , because you have not what to say against it . 19. but though you have neither scripture , councels , nor fathers , for the abolishing of episcopacy , yet you have reason grounded upon policy , to worke his miajestie to yeeld to this abolition . for ( say you ) he cannot now deny consent without sin . it seemes then , he might , without sin deny consent heretofore : but not now . and why not now ; as well as heretofore ? because ( say you ) x if he consent not , there will evidently continue such distraction and confusion , as is most repugnant to the weale of his people ; which he is bound by the rule of government , and his oath to provide for . thus sin shall vary at your pleasure : sin it shall be now , that was none heretofore . that shall be sin in king charles , which was vertue and piety in queen elizabeth , and all their religious ancesters . 20. y where no law is , there is no transgression . before then you prove it to be a sin , you must prove it to be against some law either of god or man. not against the law of god ; that 's already proved . not against the law of man ; since no man can sin against that law , to which he is not subject . * the laws are the kings ; he gives laws to his subjects , not his subjects to him : and we know no law of his against bishops . indeed the laws of this land are so far from the extirpation of bishops , that z the fundament all law of this kingdom approves of them . they then that are enemies to bishops , are enemies to the fundamentall law of this kingdom . and what is fundamentall , is in and of the foundation . if then a law be made to extirpate bishops , it grates upon the foundation , it is against the fundamentall law of this realme , & it contradicts that law of laws , the word of god. besides , we are assured by that learned in the law , justice jenkins a that it is against the kings oath , and the oaths of the houses , to alter the government for religion . but an alteration of this government , must necessarily follow upon the abolition of episcopacy . yea with bishops , not onely the church and religion will be ruined , but the very government and laws of the kingdom will be so confounded , that the learned in the law will not know , where to find law. they must burn their old books , and begin the world upon the new model . all this will amount to no small sin ; it will be to the shame of this land ; to the ruine of those two noble professions , divinity and law ; and to the common misery of the people . 21. these reasons premised , i shall justly return your own words upon your self , in this manner . it is not in the kings power to consent to the abolition of episcopacy , because he cannot now yeeld consent without sin . for if he consent , there will evidently follow such distraction and confusion , as is most repugnant to the weal of his people ; which he is bound by the rule of government , and his oath to provide for . i say so , and true it is ; because it is evident to every discerning eye , that there are as many , and those more considerable , that are cordially for episcopacy and common prayer , as are against them . indeed they are not so factious , so mutinous , and bloody as the other . what multitudes are there in this kingdom , that mourn and grieve to see religion so opprest , so trampled on , and almost breathing out her last ? in truth it is palpable , that these seditious and irreligious courses have ingendred , and propagated , and will continue such distraction and confusion in church and state , as is most repugnant , not onely to the present , but to the eternall wedl and salvation of his people : both which he is bound to provide for , but more especially for the later . 22. and whereas you say , such distraction and confusion will continue , unlesse episcopacy be abolished ; if seems , you are resolved to continue these distractions . but , god knows , and your words testifie , that it is not the calling or the office of a bishop , that is offensive ; it is b their honour , and their wealth , which you aim at ; c these , with their revenues must be shared amongst you of the presbyterian faction ; and then all shall be well . till then we must look for nothing but fire and sword . hence it evidently appears , that neither episcopacy , nor the kings dissent , but your ambition and avarice have been the true cause of these distractions and combustions . d such a sedition as this there was in the time of moses about the priesthood ; because every man might not sacrifice , as , when , and where he pleased . because corah might not wear a miter , and go into the most holy place , as well as aaron . and yet who dares say , that the priestood was the cause of those uproars ? 23. that insurrection was against moses and aaron , against prince and priest : but against the prince for the priests sake ; because the prince would not endure , that every one should meddle with the priests office , or strip him of his means and honour . that conspiracie was linsie-woolsie , loomed up of clergie and laitie . korah , the son of levi was the ring-leader ; and c with him two hundreth and fiftie of his own tribe . to these were joyned f dathan and abiram , great princes , and men of renown ; such as were eminent in blood , and of the tribe of reuben . and was not the crie the same then , that is now ? g moses and aaron , prince and priest , ye take too much upon you , seeing all the congregation is holy , every one of them , and the lord is among them ; wherfore then lift ye your selves above the congregation of the lord ? the prince and priest did but their duty ; and yet are obbraided with pride . god raised them to their places ; and they are charged to raise themselves . but moses justly retorts upon them , what they had falsly cast upon him ; h ye take too much upon you , ye sons of levi. what ? i is it not enough for you , that god hath separated you from the multitude , that he hath taken you neer himself , to do the service of the lords tabernacle , but you must have the priests office ? but you must be k offering incense , as well as the high priest ? the priest of the second order would needs be equall with the chief priest , the priest of the first order . and is it not so now ? have we not just cause to say to you , ye take too much upon you , ye presbyters , ye sons of bishops . what ? is it not enough for you , that god hath separated you from the multitude , that he hath taken you neer himself , to do the service of the lords house , and to administer the sacraments ; but you must have the bishops office ? but you must be giving orders , as well as the bishop ? surely this is to assume that power to your selves , which god never committed to any presbyter , while a presbyter . 24. last of all , i cannot but observe , that when the lord had punished these schismaticall and seditious persons , l the tumult ariseth afresh against moses and aaron ; they cry out upon them as m murderers , as if these two had slain the people of the lord : for thus they call that factious and damnable crue . but the lord decided the controversie , and shewed manifestly , who were his ; first n by consuming the mutineers with the plague ; and secondly , by causing o aarons rod , when it seemed to be quite dead , to revive , even to bud , and blossom , and bear fruit in the tabernacle . p thus the mouthes of the rebellious children were stopped , and gods ordinance justified . q oh , that salvation were given unto israel out of sion : oh , that the lord would deliver his people out of captivity . oh , that we might see aarons rod once more bud , and blossom , and bring forth almonds . r then should jacob rejoyce , and israel should be right glad . chap. xvii . whether there be two supremacies in this kingdom . 1. in this treatise ſ you blame those , that seem to set up two supremacies ; and yet you cannot see the same beam in your own eye . you are of kin , sure , to those lamiae , those witches , that were blind at home , but quick-sighted abroad . thou , that findest fault with another , doest the same thing . for do not you say plainly , that t there 's a supremacie in the king , and a supremacy in the parliament ? i hope , you know your own language . clodius accusat . it is an usuall thing for your confederacie , to charge the king and his good subjects with that , which your selves are either guilty of , or intend to induce . 2. what , two supremacies , two superlatives , at the same time , in the same kingdom ? is this possible ? what , because there is summus and supremus ; because there are two superlatives of the same word , shall we therefore have two supremacies in the same realm ? is not this flatly against the oath of supremacy ? wherein you , and i , and your great patriots , have sworn , that the kings highnesse is the onely supreme governour of this realme , and of all other his highnesse dominions and countreys . but the king hath been so long out of your eye , that he is now out of your minde , and the parliament shall at least be his corrivall in the supremacy . take heed , take heed of perjury . i can tell you of severall acts of parliament since the reformation , that u lay a penaltie of fourty pounds , upon every particular perjurie . if his majestie had all these forfeitures , they would satisfie his debts , and make him a glorious king after all these pressures . 3. but you clip his majesties wings , though ye make him flie ; and tell us , as x you conceive , that the supremum jus dominii , the supreme right of dominion , which is above all laws , is not in the king. to say it is in him , is in this , in our state a manifest error . why , what 's become of the oath of supremacy ? have we forgot that ? was not that provided for this state ? in our state this is no error ; in yours it may be ; or else you are in a manifest error . certainly the members have sworn , that the king is the only supreme governour of this realm , or state. and that he is so , as well in all spirituall or ecclesiasticall things , or causes , as temporall . if he be the onely supreme , how shall we find another supreme , or an equall to him within his own dominions ? if he be so in all things and causes both ecclesiasticall and temporall , what thing or cause is there , wherein he is not the onely supreme ; or wherein he hath any other supreme joyned to him ? for certain , these particles onely and all , are exclusive of any copartner . 4. but you will chalk out a way , whereby to elude , or avoid this oath , and the restrictions therein . there 's a supreme parliament , as well as a supreme king. or , a supremacy is in the parliament , and a supremacy in the king. an excellent arithmetician , he hath learned to multiply ; of one , and one onely , he hath made two . thus have they raised division out of unity : and from hence are these distractions and divisions , which are so repugnant to the weal of the people . this is one of their new lights , which is borrowed from their multiplying glasse , that makes a molehill as bigge as a mountain , and a spider as large as a sea-crab . but when the multiplying glasse is layed aside , the spider will be but a spider . 5. well , let us see , how you make good this twofold supremacy . y the supremacy , or the supremum jus dominii , that is over all laws , figere or refigere , to make , or disanull them at pleasure , is neither in the king , nor in the houses apart , but in both conjoyned . here then we are fallen back to one supremacy . and this supremacy is not the kings onely ; but it is the parliaments , as well as his . this is to skip from monarchy to aristocracy . kingdoms indure no corrivals ; and z kings have no peers . but this man hath found one thing , wherein the king hath peers ; and consequently is not the onely supreme governour of this realm . strange , how that parliament , and all since that time have been so mistaken , as not to see their own right , but to ascribe all to the king ; and that in a point of so high concernment . surely they wanted this young preacher , to bring them in a new light . but i beleeve , it will appeare , that the supremacie over all laws to make , or disanull them , is in the king alone , at the petition of both houses : and that those parliaments knew full well . 6. for satisfaction in this point i shall observe , what scriptures , fathers , and some modern writers have resolved concerning kings . s. petter plainly and fully a ascribes supremacy to the king. submit your selves ( saith he ) to every ordinance of man for the lords sake : whether it be to the king , as supreme ; or unto governors , as unto them , that are sent by him . kings are sent by god ; to them therfore we submit for the lords sake . all other civill governours are sent by the king ; to them therefore we submit for the kings sake , that sent them . answerable hereunto are those passages in tertullian , that b the emperor is homo a deo secundus , & solo deo minor , c in dei solius potestate , a quo secundus , post quem primus , the man second to god , and lesse then god onely . that he is in the power , or under the command of god onely ; from whom he is the second , and after whom he is the first . optatus saies as much ; d super imperatorem non est nisi solus deus , qui fecit imperatorem ; there is none above the emperor , but god alone ; who made him emperor . and what the emperor was in the empire ; the same is the king of england within his own dominions . for e the crown of england hath been so free at all times , that it hath been in subjection to no realm , but immediately subject to god , and to none other . hence is it called f an empire ; and g the imperiall crown of this realm . 7. the greeke commentators are so full for obedience to kings , that h they will not yeeld , that an apostle may be freed from this subjection . this doctrine s. paul justifies ; i i stand ( saith he ) at caesars judgment seat , where i ought to be judged . and after this appeal he resolves , that k no man , not the president himself , may judge him , or deliver him to be judged by any other . nay after this the president himself might not release him . so king agrippa , l had not this man appealed to caesar , he might have been set at liberty . are not these strong evidences of the kings supremacy ? that learned grotius gives a sure rule , whereby to know , on whom the supremacy is settled . m that ( saith he ) is the supreme civill power , cujus actus alterius juri non subsunt , whose actions are not subject to any other mans censure , or law. but such is the king , n qui sub nullo alio , sed sub solo deo agit , who lives in subjection to none , but to god onely . for o who may say unto him , what doest thou ? when therefore david had sinned , he cries out unto the lord , p in te solum peccavi , against thee onely have i sinned , thou onely canst call me to account hence is that resolution of all the learned of this church , in the time of king henry viii . among whom were bishop carnmer , and bishop latymer , q although princes do otherwise , then they ought to do , yet god hath assigned no judges over them in this world , but will have the judgement of them reserved to himself . and the judgement of the great lawyers in france is this , r rex solus ▪ the king onely is the supreme lord of all the subjects , aswell lay , as ecclesiasticall , within his own dominions . ſ all other men live under judgment ; & cum deliquerint , peccant deo , peccant & legibus mundi ; and when they offend , they sinne against god , and against the laws of the land. 8. but i know , you relye more upon the laws of this land , then upon the laws of god ; and upon our lawyers , rather then the fathers , and out best divines . i shall therefore transgresse my profession . & shew you , what their opinion is . t this realme ( say the statutes ) is an empire , whereof the king is the supreme head ; and consisteth of the spiritualty and tempora●ty , over which the king hath whole power , and jurisdiction . are you of this realm , or are you not ? i●●on be , then are you either of the spiritualty or tempora●ty and if of either , then wholly under the kings power the whole power is his ; why seek you to rob him of it ? of this realme the king not the parliament , is the supreme head : one head not two . he that makes two supremacies , makes a bul ; and he that se●● two heads upon one body , frames a monster . 9. indeed they are so far from having any supremacy , that they are subjects as well in , as out of parliament . u when king edward the confessor had all the earles and barons of the kingdome assembled in parliament , he cals them all , his leige men my lords , you that are my leige men. perchance you may say , the king calls them so , but that makes them not so . you shall therefore have their own acknowledgement , in parliament , thus . x we your most loving , faithfull , and obedient subjects , representing the three estates of your realme of england . thus the whole parliament united into one body . false therefore is that proposition , that the king is major singulis , sed minor universis , greater then any , and lesse then all the inhabitants of this realme . for here the representative body of the three estates of this kingdome , assembled in parliament , in their highest capacitie , acknowledge themselves to be the queens subjects , and her most obedient subjects ; because to her , they thus assembled , did justly owe both subjection , and obedience ; which none that are supreme , can owe. and these are due to his majestie & à singulis , & ab universis , from one , and all ; from every one singly , and from all joyntly . 10. secondly , when they are assembled in parliament , they petition , as well as out of parliament . this is evident by the acts themselves ; wherein we read , that y our soveraigne lord the king , by the assent aforesaid , and at the praier of his commons . the same words are repeated 2 hen. 5. c. 6 & 9. and in queen elizabeths time , the parliament humble themselves in this manner , z that it may please your highnesse ▪ that it may be enacted , &c. i might come down lower , but i shall satisfie my selfe with sir edward cokes report , b who assures us , that in ancient times all acts of parliament were in forme of petitions . mr. geree himselfe acknowledgeth , they should be so now . c the king ( saith he ) may passe a bill for the abolition of episcopacy , when his houses of parliament think it convenient , and petition for it . either then the houses have no supremacy , o● else they humble themselves too low , when they petition his majestie . but this supremacy of parliament is one of the new lights , that were lately wafted into this land in a scottish cookboate . 11. thirdly , what supremacy can there be in those , that may not lawfully convene , or consult , till the king summon them ; and must dissolve and depart , when the king command ▪ the writ it self runs thus , d prelatis & magnatibus nostris , quos vocari fecimus . to the prelates . and our nobles . whom we have caused to be called . and e sir robert cotton , out of elie register , tels us that parliaments were assembled at first as now , edicto principis ( not at their own , but ) at the kings pleasure . and sir edward coke assures me , that f none can begin , continue , or dissolve the parliament , but by the kings authority . and let me tell you , that if his majestie shall withdraw himself from parliament , it is not for your great masters to inforce him to return , but to g pray his presence , and to inform his majestie , that if he forbear his presence among them fourty dayes , that then by an ancient statute , they may return absque domigerio regis , to their severall homes . this is all they ought , or may do . 12. fourthly , whereas , according to your words , h the parliament is to regulate all other courts ; the court of parliament is to be regulated by the king. for the time , that is already manifested , to be at his majesties pleasure . and for the matter , that is prescribed , and limited by the king ; i super praemissis tractare , to consult and advise upon such things , as the king nominates , and prescribes . and if credit may be given to iohn speede , he tells us , that k the great lawyers judgments , in king richard ii. time , concerning orderly proceedings in parliaments , run thus . that after the cause of such assembly is by the kings commandement there declared , such articles , as by the king are limited for the lords and commons to proceed in , are first to be handled . but if any should proceed vpon other articles , and refvse to proceed vpon those limited by the king , till the king had first answered their proposals , contrary to the kings command ; such doing herein contrary to the rule of the king , are to be punished astraitors . and he cites the law books for what he saies . truly i am the rather induced to beleeve , what speed delivers , because sir edward coke gives us the reason , why , and how far forth , the king relies upon his parliaments . l the king ( saith he ) in all his weighty affairs used the advice of his lords and commons ; so great a trust and confidence he had in them . alwaies provided , that both the lords and commons keep them within the circle of the law and custom of the parliament . the reason , why the king useth their advice , is because he hath a great trust and confidence in them . but alwaies provided that they keepe themselves within the circle of the law , and custome of parliament . but how if they deceive the kings trust , and abuse his confidence ? how if they break the lawfull circle , and transgresse the customs of parliament ? how then ? what speede hath recorded , i have shewn you . but what the king may do in this case , i shall leave to the masters of the law to determine . 13. last of all , the king regulates their consultations . for in his breast it is , whether their bills shall become laws , or no. observe ; though the advice and assent be theirs , yet the power of ordaining , establishing , and enacting , is in the soveraigne . the statute books shall be my witnesses . m the king by the advice , assent , and authority aforesaid , hath ordeined and established . and again , n be it enacted by the queens most excellent majestie , with the assent of the lords spirituall , and temporall , and the commons , &c. hence is it , that they are called the kings laws . and o the king is called the head of the law ; because from him it is derived ; from him the law receives both life and force . p his breast is the shrine , or deske , wherein all the laws are stored up , and preserved . if any man make question of this , present experience will satisfie him . for do not the houses at this day petition his majestie , to make that a law which they have voted ? take their own words in that high message sent to holdenby house in march last . we the lords and commons , assembled in the parliament of england , &c. do humbly present unto your majestie the humble desires and propositions , agreed upon by the parliaments of both kingdoms respectively . vnto which we do pray your majesties assent . and that they , and all such bills , as shall be tendered to your majestie in pursuance of them , or any of them , may be established and enacted for statutes and acts of parliament , by your majesties royall assent . which words , though very high , do manifest , that there is neither majesty , nor supremacy , nor power in this , or any other parliament , to make , or repeale laws . it is at the kings pleasure to establish and enact them for laws and statutes , or not . this our neighbour scotland sees , and confesseth that regall power and authority is chiefly in making and enacting laws . declarat . of the kingd . of scotland . p. 18. 14. from hence it appears , first , that there is no supremacy in the parliament , without the king. secondly ; that the supremum jus dominii , the supreme right of dominion , which is over laws , to establish or disanull them , is in the king alone . for a bill not established , is of no force , it is no law. 3ly , that q the king is the supreme magistrate ( as you are pleased to call him ) from whom all power of execution of laws is legally derived . and 4ly , if the power of execution be derived from the king , much more is the power to regulate . for he , that gives them power by his commission , to put the laws in execution , he gives them rules in the same commission , whereby they must be guided ; and sets them bounds , which they may not passe . if they transgresse either , the king hath a legall power to revoke their commissions , and to dispose of them , to whom , and when , he pleaseth . hence is it , that all courts , and the judges of those courts , are called the kings courts , and the kings ministers of justice . and when we are summoned to appear in any court of justice , the processe runs coram domino rege , before our lord the king : because the kings person and power is there represented . and though his majestie be over-born , and against all law and reason kept from his courts of justice , yet in all writs you are fain to abuse his name ; though he be no way accessary to these lawlesse , and illegall proceedings . how these courts have been regulated , since his majesties forced departure , this kingdom is very sensible , and laments to consider it ; god amend it . 15. upon these grounds i argue thus . they , that are subjects ; they , that are suppliants ; they , that owe obedience to an higher ; they , that cannot lawfully convene , or consult , till they be called by another ; they , that must dissolve their meeting at anothers command ; they , that are to be regulated by another ; they , that can onely advise , perswade , entreat , but not enact a law , have no supremacy . but the whole parliament sever'd from the king , are subjects , are suppliants ; they owe obedience to an higher ; they cannot lawfully convene , or consult , till they be called by his majestie ; at his command , they are to dissolve their meeting ; by him they are to be regulated ; and q without him they cannot enact a law. the major is evident , to every intelligent eye . the minor is demonstrated , sect. 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. 13. i must therefore upon these premises necessarily conclude , that the parliament , in that sense you take it , hath no supremacy . 16. that nothing may be wanting , i shall give you the resolution of our sages at law , concerning the kings unseparable and incommunicable supremacy ; that so all mouthes may be stopped . bractons resolution is this , r rex habet potestatem & jurisdictionem super omnes , qui inregno suo sunt . the king hath power and jurisdiction over all , within his own kingdom . plowden saith as much ; ſ the king hath the sole government of his subjects . here is no man , no societie of men exempted ; all under the king , and solely under the king. where then is the parliaments supremacy ? not in this kingdom ; it must be looked for some where else . 17. secondly , t ea , quae sunt jurisdictionis & pacis ad nullum pertinent nisi ad regiam dignitatem : those things , which concerne jurisdiction and peace , belong to none but onely to the royall dignity . u the same he affirmes of restraint , and punishment . these then belong not to the parliament ; since that cannot chalenge royall dignity . where then is their supreme power ? all power almost consists in jurisdiction , ordering of peace , and punishing offenders . and all these are flowers of the crown . yea , x the power of the militia , of eoyning of mony , of making leagues with forreigne princes ; the power of pardoning , of making of officers , &c. all kings had them , the said powers have no beginning . if then all these and many more are peculiar to soveraignty , what is left for the parliament ? why surely if you will , to be the kings supreme or chief councell , and his capitall court. this they are ; and this is an high honour to them being rightly used . 18. thirdly , y omnis sub rege , & ipse sub nullo ; every one is under the king ; but the king is under none , but god onely . the supremacy then must needs be in the king ; who is superior to all but the god of heaven . and over the supreme there can be no earthly superior . to admit a comparative above the superlative in the same kinde , is a solecisme not onely in grammar , but in reason , and religion . yet , though no superior , there may perchance be an equall to this supreme . there may so ; but not within his own dominions . z rex enim non habet parem in regno suo ; a the king ( saith the statute ) hath no peer in his land. and if justice jenkins may be heard , he tels us , that b the houses in parliament confesse , the king to be above the representative body of the realm . they are not therefore his equals ; and so have no supremacy . when i can be perswaded , that any , or all the members of the body are equall to the head , then i shall be apt to beleeve , that there may be two supremacies in a kingdom . but i am confident , that c a wife may as safely admit of two husbands , as a kingdom of two supremes . for d the king is sponsus regni , that husband , who by a ring is espoused to this realm at his coronation . but a ring is superstitious , and husbands are grown out of date . the onely thing in request is liberty , to take or leave what and whom we please . 19. but e the parliament is the supreme court , by which all other courts are to be regulated : what say we to that ? this i say , that the parliament is f curia capitalis , the supreme court of this kingdom : and yet his court it is , whose courts the rest are . it is therefore called g curia regis , and h magnum concilium regis , the kings court , the kings great councell : yea and the kings parliament . sir rob. cotton justifies it from the parliament rowles . i henry iv. began his first parliament . novemb. 1. k the king began his second parliament jan. 20. and of henry vii . thus : l it is no doubt , but he would have been found as frequent in his great councell of parliament , as he was in the starre-chamber . and this very parliament , how oft have they called themselves , the kings great councell ? they are so , and they are no more . but why am i so carefull to heap up instances ? your self call it . his , the kings , parliament , p. 2. and his houses of parliament , p. 8. 20. if then in your sense , we take the houses without the king , there is no supremacy in them , either severally , or joyntly : since they are but subjects , and the representative body of subjects . and under this consideration they cannot regulate other courts , unlesse the king give them power to do so . but take the houses with the king , and then it is most true , that there is a supremacy in the parliament ; and that it hath power to regulate all other courts . but this supremacy it hath by , and from the king ; and from no other . we therefore professe with that learned mr of the law , that m the parliament is the highest , and most honorable and absolute court of justice of england , consisting of the king , the lords of parliament , and the commons . the lords are here divided into two sorts , viz. spirituall and temporall . when such an assembly meets , and each house and the members thereof keep themselves within their proper limits , i dare be bold to say , that this court is assembled as it ought , n for provision for support of the state in men and money ; and well ordering of the church and common-wealth ; and determining of such causes , which ordinary courts nesciebant judicare , were not skilfull to determine . o these are the causes of such assemblies . 21. but truly , when they are thus assembled , i do not conceive , that they have power to p make or disanull all laws at pleasure ; but upon just and necessary occasion . for there is great danger in altering laws without urgent cause . innovation in government makes an alteration in state : & sudden alterations are not for the safety either of bodies naturall , or bodies politicke . observe , what the mirror of his time k. iames speaks : q we are not ignorant of the inconveniences , that do arise in government , by admitting innovasion in things once settled by mature deliberation : and r how necessary it is to use constancy in the upholding of the publik determinations of state. for that such is the unquietnesse and unstedfastnesse of some dispositions affecting every yeer new formes of things , as if they should be followed in their unconstancy , would make all actions of state ridiculous and contemptible . whereas the stedfast maintaining of things by good advice established , is the weale of all common-wealths . there is often danger , seldom pleasure in the change of laws . truly since the laws-have been neglected , and varietie of ordinances have supplied their roome , ſ we have been fed with the bread of tears , we have had plentiousnesse of tears to drinke . we are become a very striffe unto our neighbours ; and our enemies laugh us to scorne . 22. that the king in parliament doth usually make or alter laws , as the necessity of the times , and common good of his subjects require , is no rare thing . yet this ought to be done with much care and deliberation ; that so nothing be enacted , which may be justly greivous or destructive to his leige people . sithence , according to your determination , t he cannot lawfully make any ingagement to any , against the laws , and legall rights of others . your reason is because , u that were not cedere jure suo , sed alieno , a parting with his own , but with other mens rights . the same reason will hold against the parliament . suppose we should grant , what we may not , that the king and parliament are equals ; it follows necessarily , that whatsoever is unlawfull for one , is unlawfull for any other of the same ranke and power . if then it be not lawfull for the king , neither is it lawfull for his great councell , to take away the legall rights of others against law. and therefore not the legall rights of bishops , deanes and chapters , or any other of the clergie . for by the laws of the land , we have as firme an interest , and as true a freehold in those possessions , wherein to we are admitted , or inducted , as any other of his majesties subjects have in theirs . boast not of your power ; x power must attend upon justice , not go before it , nor over-rule it . i● justice take place , it is a judiciall , a just power ; but if power over sway justice , the government proves tyrannicall . 23. as for the power of making laws , we must know , that y by the common law , which is guided by the light of nature , and the word of god , that power is acknowledged to be in the king. who is leg●●us superior , as * fitz harbert speaks , above the law. but the soveraignes of this realme to reitifie the tender care they have of their peoples welfare , and the desire they have to injoy their love , have so far condescended in the stature law , that they will not henceforth do so without the advice & assent of the houses . this is not to give them a supremacie , but to admit them to advice . this is the way to win the most refractary , to submit to those laws , whereto they have given consent either in person , or by proxy . besides , z what is concluded on with good advice , by common consent , and hath the opprobation of diverse wise , learned , and religious persons , gives better satisfaction to all in generall , then what is done by one alone , be it never so well done . and yet to this day the power of ordeining , establishing and enacting laws , is reserved wholly to the crowne . most of these statute laws are as so many royall legacies bequeathed to this nation , by the severall soveraignes and fathers of this countrey . a not a liberty or priviledge , b not any land or tenement , but is originally derived from the crowne . such hath been the goodnesse and bounty of our princes to us their unworthy subjects . all we have , is from them : and now we take all from them . is this gratitude ? we serve god and the king alike ; we are resolved to seize upon all , that is called sacred . and i have learned , that not onely c the kings house , but d his very lands are called in law patrimonium sacrum , the holy patrimony . is not this that sacra fames , that sacred hunger , which is so greedy of all that is called sacred ? 24. brand not us , poore clergie-men , with foule and fained aspersions ; delude not the people with false & forged suggestions . e whose legall priviledges , or rights have we invaded , or sought after ? when did we ever desire , or perswade his majestie , to do the least injurie to people , or parliament ? your own conscience clears us in the generall . and your own profession is , that f you cannot but have a better conceit of the major part of the clergie , at this time , that they will not be so tenacious of their wealth and honour , as t● let the crowne run an hazard . if then we will , and have parted with that , which is justly ours , rather then in the least manner we would prejudice the king , or wrong our own consciences ; certainly we cannot perswade the king g to make any ingagement to us , against the laws , and legall rights of others . if any particular person have offended in this kind , we make no apologie for him : upon just proofe let him have a legall censure . this kingdom cannot but take notice , that we have been so far from incroaching upon others , that we have parted with u● own rights , though not with gods. we have deserted all we had , to preserve a good conscience . this is truly cedere jure suo , to part with our own , that we may not faile that trust , which is committed to us . we justifie gods right , and lose our own . 25. we confesse , that h the king is bound to maintain the legall priviledges of people and parliament ; but not so , as to destroy gods rights , or the priviledges of his ministers . that be farre from him . i suum cuique , the true princely justice is , to be just to god and man ; to give god what is his , and impartially to his subjects , what is theirs , as also what truly belongs to them in their severall places and professions . his majestie knows full well , that the liberties of the subject , the priviledges of parliament , and rights of the clergie , have long consisted and prospered together . take away the vine , and the elme will beare no fruit ; take away the elme , and the vine will fall to the ground , and be trod to durt . 26. that k the king hath been alwaies ready to confirme needfull ( not wanton , not malicious , not destructive ) bills , cannot be denyed by any of his impartiall & conscionable subjects . the quarrell raised against him is , because he will not suffer gods inheritance , and the churches patrimony to be devoured ; because he will not endure gods service , and all religion to be trampled on ; because he end eavours to releive his poore people the clergie , against whatsoever greivance they suffer , or threatned to be enforced upon them . the same favour he alwaies hath , and is at this time forward to afford to all his good people , and loyall subjects . yea , even to those , that are neither good , nor loyall . 27. but before i take my leave of your case of conscience , i shall resolve you , what a pious designe you have ventered on , and what a rock you have run your self upon . you will , i hope like the better of it , because it comes from that law , you most delight in . the statute saith , l when a man secular or religious slayeth his prelate ; to whom he oweth faith and obedience , it is treason . if then it be treason to slay the prelate , what sin is it to murder prelacy ? certainly by how much the sin is greater to destroy the species , all mankind , then one particular man ; by so much is the treason more heinous more abominable to kill episcopacy , then any one bishop whatsoever . and yet this you have endeavoured to the utmost of your power . for this i shall leave you to the law , and to those , m whom the king shall send for the punishment of evill doers . pray we therefore for the safety of our soveraigne , and that he may with speed be restored to his throne ; for these times have made us sensible with rabbi chanina , that n were it not for fear of him , alter alterum vivus devoraret , one would devoure another quicke . 28. o thus i think , by this time , i may safely conclude , that it is sufficiently cleared , that neither as a king , nor as a christian , may his majestie in justice , or conscience , ingage himselfe , or yeeld consent either to the extirpation of episcopacy out of this church of england , or to the abrogation of the just priviledges of his clergie , or to the alienation of their lands . since by your confession , p he cannot lawfully make any ingagement to any , against the laws and legall rights of others . and the king is so just ; that he will never do , what he cannot lawfully do . observe the plagues of such men , as are never touched with the miseries of others . they commonly fall under the same judgment , which others unpittied have tasted before . d. corn. burges . fire of the sanct. p. 50. 51. finis . errata . pag. 6. l. 34 melsalinus , r. messalinus . p. 20. l. 34. cardiner r. gardiner . p. 21. l. 33. let , r. set . p. 30. l. 21. perpetull , r perpetuall . p. 31. l 29. cut off . r. cast off p. 33. l. 20 teneatur , r. tenetur ib. l. 23 possit . r. posse . ib. in marg . l 12 quisquis r. quisque p. 34 l. 12. are you of r. you are of . ib l. 16. nation r. nation into ib l. 3● disolate . r. desolate . p. 35 l 29. viii . r. vii . p 38 l ▪ o rives r river . p. 44. l. 7 depends , r. depend . ib. l. 17. obstinentis r. obtinentis . p. 51 in marg . l. 13 concessimo , r. concessimus . p 53. l. nlt. distructive , r. destructive , p. 54. l. 10. not upon , r. not set upon . p 55 l. 25. abolishet , r. abolished . p. 50. l 2. overnor , r. governor . p. 60 l. 21. changing terme , r. changing the terme . ib , l 32. 1. and the ministerial . p. 6● . l. 2. yet r. that p. 83 l ult ttle , r. little . p 84 l. 34. distroied , r destroyed . p. ●●0 . l. penult . regular , r. regulate p. 111. l. 18. the justice , r. the justices . p. 113 l. 17. after , r. alter . p 116. in marg . l. 24. other , r. others , notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a28864-e420 a i. d. p. 4. psal . 39. 4. c 2 sam 1● . 9. d psa● 89. 50. e 1. reg. 2. 44. 45. f the fire of the sanctuary p. 22● . g ib. p. 272. h nathan ward p. ●lt . i a● ▪ 8. 23. k ib v. 21. l ib. v. 23. m ib ▪ v. 22. notes for div a28864-e1000 episcopus . notes for div a28864-e1840 a i. g. p. 1. b mr. challenor● speech . c i g p. 1. d s. luk. 1 51. 52. e i● . v. 49. 31. f ex. 18. 21. g ex. 23. 2. h that such an union is ●●n●●p●●si●i●e ●●p●●si●i●e , 〈…〉 the king condescend in the point of episcopacy l. g. p. 1. i for the king to condescend renitente conscientiâ , though it might gratifie us , it would be sinfull to himself . i. g. p. 1. k i. g. p. 1. l the oath taken at the kings coronation hath been prest by some learned pens with that probability , &c. i. g. p. 1. m neither have they that i know , received an● satisfactory answer in print i g p. 1. n it may ●e a work worthy some pains to resolve this case ▪ and clear your obj●ctions , that while they stand unanswered , cast an ill reflect on both upon the king in condescending to abrogate episcopacy , and the parliament , in pressing him to it . i. g p. 1. o the bond of the k●ngs oath may be taken off two waies either by clearing the unlawfulnesse of it i. g. p. 1. p though it be granted , that episcopacy is lawfull ▪ yet notwithstanding that his oath , the king without impeachment may consent to the abrogation of episcopacy i g. p. 2. a it was vinculum iniquitatis , and so void the fi●st day : for qui jurat in iniquum obligatur in contrarium , ● . g p. 1. b i. g. p. 1. c i. g p. 1. d 1 s pet. 2. 13 , 14. e i. g. p. 9. f solemn league and covenant . ● . g. p. 1. h ier. 11. 19. i s. pet 2. 25. * as scripture is the rule of church ▪ government ▪ so christ is the sole root and fountain wh●nce it originally flows i. d. p. 50 k ambr. de dignit sacerd c. 5. l hieron . in mat. 10. 8. m gen●ad apud balsam . p. 1085. n s ioh 20. 21. o hilar in mat. can 10 p cyril in io. l. 12 c. 55. q hieron i● gal. 1. ●9 . r calvin in 1 cor 4. 9. ſ wal ▪ messal . p. 41. t theo in phi. lip . 11. k ignat ad eph. l theodoret ▪ in 1 tim. 3 1. m walo . messal . p ●0 43. n i● p. 53. o timoth●m apostoli munere & officio functus est ib p 42. 52. p ib. p. 47 50. 244. q smect . answ . to the remonst . p. 21. & 26. r epaphroditus by s ●au●●● ●● called the apostle of the p●●lippians , b●caus● h● had sent him to the philippians to confirm their church , and therein to ordain them ●resbyters and bishops walo . messal p. 58. ſ tit. 1. ● . t ephes 4 11. 1 cor. 12 28. x s. luk. 22 19. 1 cor. 11. 24 , 25. y ● joh. 6. 53. z ordinance for ordinat . p 2. a ib. p ▪ 13. b i. g. p. 1. c psal 89 50. d s. jude v. 3 ▪ e i. g p 1. f i. g p 1. g i g. p 2. h i. ● ▪ ● ▪ ● ▪ i ordinance for ordinat . p 2. k i. g. p. 2. l rom. 13. 1. m thou couldst have no power at all , ag●●nst me , except it were given thee from above s. jo. 19. 11. n ier. 20. 2. o ier. 19. 14. p prov. 8. 15. q ier. 26. 23. r ier. 32. 3. ſ 1 reg. 2. 27. 31. t ib. v. 26. u 1 tim. 1. 20. x gal ▪ 1. 9. y 2 tim. 3 ▪ 2. &c. z i. g. p. 1. a ib b act 1. 22. c act ▪ 1. 20. d presbyters are by christs warrant in scripture indued with power to rule in their own congregations , as well as to preach . see 1 tim. 3. 5 & 5. 21. heb. 13. 17 ▪ 1 thes . 5. 12. i g. p. 2. e 1 tim. 3. 5. f 1 tim. 3. 1. g ib. v. 4. h i. d. p. 12● ▪ i 1 tim. 3 ▪ 12 ▪ k 1 tim. 5 ▪ 2● ▪ l heb. 13. 17. m ib n c●nt 6. 3. o episcopus est pres●yt●●is pr●positus cypr ep . 10 p 2 cor ● . 23. philip. 2. 25 ▪ q 1 tim 5. 22. tit ▪ 1. 5. r 2 tim. 3. 5. t it 2. 15. & 3. 10. ſ 1 tim 5. 19. t 1 tim. 1. 3. u tit. 1. 11. x tit. 3. 9. y 1 tim 6. 3. 5. z beza & piscat . in loc . a si qui cum episcōp● non sunt , in ecclesid non sunt ▪ cypr. ep . 69 ▪ n. 31. b 1 thes . 5. ●2 . c hilar. dial. rom. in loc . apud ambros . d theodoret ▪ in 1 ●he● . 5. 12. e calvin in loc . f caluin i●stit . ● . ● . c. 3. sect. 15. g as prelacy stood in ●ngl●nd , the presbyters were ●x●●●●ed from all soc●●tie in rule . i. g p. 2. h which was much more preiudiciall to the dignity & lioerty of the ministery , the presbyters w●re subiected to a lay chancelor . i. g. p. 2. i the clergie & their priviledge● are subiect to the parliament . i. g. p. 7. k greg naz. orat . 52. ● 15. l an● was not here ●●urpation against gods direction ? i. g. p. 2. m i. g. p. 6. n though this way o● i●validating the k●●gs oath be most satisfactory to some , i. g. p. 2. o 1 tim. 6. 5. p 1 tim ● 8. q gen. no●e in loc . r yet to those that are not onvin●ed of the unlawfulnesse of ep●scopacy , it will not hol● . i. g. p. ● z it would cast the res●lution of th●s ●ou●t a●out the oa●h , upon another qu●stion touc●●●g the l●wfulnesse of episcopac● , which is a lar●er feild . i. g p. 2. a i. g. p. 1. 2. b i sh●ll endeav●u● to shew , that though for argument s●ke , it be grant●● , that episcopacy●e ●e lawfull i g. p 2. c i. g. p. 2. d i. g. p. 2. e 1. s. joh. 3 20. f ier , 35. 6 , 7. g ib. v. 8. h ib. v. 19. i calvin in amos 7. 13. k aug. ep . 180. l nunc malori libertate & fiduciâ veritatem profitemur : ne al●oqui per ●miditatem hâc poenâ mulctemur , ut deo minimè placeamus greg. naz. orat. 35 n. 2. m the protestation . n art 36. o viii elis . 1. p xiii . elis . ●2 . q act. 4. 12. r rom. 10. 17. ſ s. joh. ● . 53. t artic. 26. u rom. 10. 15. x gal 1. 1. y act. 1. 26. z s. mat. 28. 19. a com : prayer book , at the communion . b s ioh. 20. 21. c s. matt. 10. 8. d act 14. 4. 14. e 2 tim 1. 6. f rom. 10 , 15. g heb. 5. 4. h exod. 28. 41. exod. 29. 9. &c. i levit. 8. 12. k psal . 99. 6. l ier. 6. 16. m zanch. n i. d. p 11. o hug. grotius de jure belli . l. 1. c. 4. sect. 5. & 7. p statim posttempora apostolorum , aut etiam eorum tempore , constitutum est , ut in unâ uroe unus inter caeteros presbyteros episcopus vocaretur , qui in suos collegat hateret pr●●minentiam pet. molin de munere past . p. 20 21. q zanch. de verâ reformand● eccles ratione . thes . 5. r ib. thes . 7. sect. pono . ſ jurisdictionem ●otsm , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 reddo episconis . melane . ad ioach. carner ●1 ep . 99. t io. u io. ep 104. x ib. y ib. ep . 106. z ib. a ib. b i. d. passim . c i. d. pre●at . sect. the imputation . d ib. e p. melane . apo● . confes . aug cap. de ord eccles . f politiam canonicam non reprehendimus . ●b . c. de ●otest eccles . g ib. de ord . eccl. h ib. de potest . eccles . i veteres ho● saepe habent , non differte aliâre ab episcopo presbyterum , nisi quia ordinandi potestatem non habet . calv. instit . l 4. sect. 15. k epipha . haer . 75. l vbi distingui ordines & gra●us caepti sunt , atque episcop 〈…〉 exit it pr●●ly 〈…〉 , tum ordinatio non potuit esse utriusque commnois . wal. messal p. 299. m s luk 16. 13. n qui apostoli vocabantur duo rum generum fuere , primi & secundi . primi à christo missioné suam acceperunt , immediatè ab ipso missi secundi ab ipsis aposto lis walo messal . p 4● . o ephes 3. 5. apoc. 18. 20 p ● cor 11. 5. &c. ●2 . 11 q phil. 2 25. r ● cor. 8. 23. ſ gal. 1. 1. t walo messal . p. 40. 41. 43. &c. u ib. p. 38. x eph 4. 12. y ib. v. z col. 1. 24. a s mat. 28. 20. b i. d. p. 14. 32. 168. c calv. in ep . ded. ad edvard ▪ somerseti ducem . d 1 tim 3. 15. e 1 tim. o. 13. 14. f calvin arg in 1. & 2. ad tim. g beza in 1 tim. 3. 14. h walo messal . p. 4● . i calvin . in 1 tim. 1. 3. k tit. 1. 5. l ib. m ad philippenses eum misit , ad ecclesi●m eorum confirm and am , & constituendos in eâ presbyteros & episcopos . walo messal . p. 58. n chrysost . in philip. 1. 1. o i. g. p. 2. p i. g. p. 1. q ib : r ie● . 4 2. ſ hoc jus ipsum postulat , quo quisque tenetur . zanch. in 3 praecept . de juramento . thes 3. sect. actionem . t ib , sect. quid fit . u ib. thes 6. sect. quid. sit . x philo iud de special . leg ● 1. y quid i●●â caecitate tenebrosius , ad obtinendam inanissimam gloriam , errorem hominis aucupari , & deum testē in corde contemnere ? quasi verò ullo modo comparan●u● sit error illius , qui te bonum putat eirori tuo qui homini de 〈◊〉 bono placere stu●●s , de 〈…〉 displices deo aug. in gal c. 6. z gravius est peccatum , facere contra publicum s●●enne jusju andum , quàm contra privatum . zanch. in 3 praecept . thes . 4 sect. actionem . a jer. 4. 2. b omnino juramentum quisquis suum . sine ullo prorsus dot● , aut de●raudatione , ●u●● gentium legeque dei , ipsis etiam hostibus , & latronibus fervare teneatur : eosque à nemine hominum ta●i i●r●méto lib rari possit . zanch in 3 , praecept . thes . 6. c gen. 39. 9. d levit. 19. 12. e s. matth. 5. 33. f exod. 20. 7. g mal. 3. 5. h s. isa . 5. 12. i zech. 8. 17. k levit. 19. 12. l hos 4. 2. 3. m zech. 5. 4. n ecclus. 23. 11. o 2 chron , 6. 13. p 2 reg. 25. 6. 7. q zanch. in 3. praecept de juramento thes . 6. sect. prima igitur . r nihil judicandus est dicere , qui dicit aliquae iustae esse mendacia , nisi aliqua iusta esse peccata , ac per hoc aliqua iusta esse , quae iniusta sunt . quo quid ab surdius dici potest ? aug. cont . mend . c. 15. i g. p. 7. t i. g. p. 8. u es 49. 23. x num. 16. 41. y sam. 12. 14. reg. 〈…〉 &c ▪ a concil . chalced . can . 25. b c. 5. c ministris carere non potest ecclesia , qui externas res administrent , ver●um & sacramenta . zanc. in 4. praecept . de minist eccles . 9. 1. sect ontavo . d act. 19. e ● . joh. 3. 9. f s. ioh. 6. 53. g neque vel solis lumen ac calor , velcibus ac potus tam sun ▪ prae send v●tae foven dae ac sustinendae necessari● , quam est conserv●ndae 〈…〉 rris ecclesiae postolicum , ac 〈…〉 storale munus . calvin . instit . l. 4. ▪ 3 , sect. 2. h cypr. ep . 99. n. 31. i ib. k i. g. p. 7. ib. ● m i propose to consideration , whether the in tention of this oath be not only against a ty●●nnous invasion on the rights of the clergie : not against an o●derly alteration of them , if any prove inconvenient , and to protect them against violence , not against ●egall wayes of change . i. g. p. 7. n aug. ep . 225. o aug ep . 224. p c. quacunque 22. quaest . 5. q euseb hist . l 6. c. 31. r iren. l. 4. c. 53. ſ sulpit. sever. hist . l. 2. t hierom. ep . 65. c. 1. u perjurare fidem , mentiri , nobile factum : prodere vel dominos , actio digna viris . rog. hove . in r. steph. p. 485 x i. g. p ▪ 8. 9. y sir ed : coke in litleton ▪ ● . 2. sect. 138. z this is as much , a 〈…〉 rationall for a king to underta●● & th r● . f 〈…〉 in ●●g●● reason the oat● should have no other ●●n●e i g p. 7. a this oath to the clergie , must not be intended in a sense inconsistent with the kings oath to the people , first taken for their protection in their laws , and liberties . i. g. p 7. b s. mat. 22. 21. c rom 13 7. d ib. v. 1. e lex divina sicut deo●●rtur ●●rtur , ita à solo also tolli , aut abroga●i po●est lex autem human● sicut per hominem con●tituitur , ita ab homine tolls , aut abroga●i potest . franc. à v●ctor . relect 3 n 16. f tho. 1. 2● . ● . 96. 4. g tho. ib. h i ▪ b. i gul. ockam de jurisdic . in causis matrimon . k fitzherbert . nat . brev . tit . protection . p. 28. l gal. 1. 10. m rom. 13. 4. n for then the latter oath would be a present breach of the former , and so unlawfull . i. g. p. 7. o ib. p eccles . 8. 4. q ib. v. 3. r lex terrae . p. 14 & 15. ſ eccles . 8. 2. t gen. note in loc . u 1 i●c . 1. x lexterrae , p. 29 y i d. p. 33. z i. g. p. 6. a ib. b deut 25. 2. exod. 23. 2. d num. 32. 23. e iosh . 7. 18. f ib. v. 21. g iosh . 6. 19. h gen. 4. 7. i exod. 23. 2. k levit. 5. 17. l ib. v , 19. m ib. v. 15. 16. n ib. v 15. o rom. 2. 22. p 1 reg 12. 31. q 2 chron. 11. 13. 14. r 1 reg. 13. 33. ſ 1 tim. 3. 2. t tit. 1. 9. u 2 s. pet. 3. 16. x s. mat 15. 14. y bp. la●yme● ser. 5 before k. edw : vi. z sir edw : coke reports , 2d . part . levesque de winchesters case . fol. 44. a i. g. p. 7. b ib. c the kings oath taken at coronation i. g. p 1. d the kings oath to the people , first taken for their protection ▪ &c. i ▪ g. p. 7. e mag. charta ●● these words are added to avoid all scruples that this great parliamentary charter might live , and take effect in all successions of age● for ever . sir ed coke in loc . g sir edw coke proeme to magna charta . h ib. i ib. k sir ed coke in mag. chart c. 1. l mag cha c. 14. m ib. c. 1. n sir ed. coke in mag. chart. c. 1 ▪ sect. et habe . bunt . o sir ed. coke in litleton l. 2 , sect. 201. p ib. in sect. 136 q ib. in sect. 201. r nullu● ali●● praeter regem potest episcopo demandare inquisitionem ●●ciendā . bract. l. ● . 10● . ſ sir ed. coke in mag chart c. 1. sect e● habeat . t sir ed coke instit part l 4 c 1. sect o● what persons . u mag. cha. c 38. x sir ed coke proeme in mag. chart. y he cannot afterwards in●age himsel● to any particular estate to exempt it fr● this power : for by that oath at least cessit ●●re suo i g p ▪ 3 z conce●●imo deo , quod ecclesi● a●glicana libera ●it mag. cha. c. 1. a sir ed. coke proem . in mag. chart. b i. g. p. 7. c 1 s. pet. 2. 13. 14. d lex terrae . p. 8. e ib. 7. f i hope they will not now claim an exemption from secular power . i. g. p. 7. g 2 cor. 13. 10. h es . 49. 23. i meaning , that kings converted to the gospel , shall bestow their power and authoritie , for the preservation of the church gen note in is . 49. 23. k but if the● be under parliamentary power , how can it ●ationally be conceived to be th 〈…〉 meaning of the kings oath to pr●s●rve the privi●edges of the c●er●● against that power to which they are legally subject ? i. g. p. 7. l canons eccles . ●an . 1. m 1 eliz. 1. n ib. o can eccles . can . 2. p 1 eliz 1. q or how were the oath in that sens● consistent with the p●ivil●●●e of the nation ▪ formerly ●●orn to ●y the king. i. g. p. 8. r thou shalt count the priests holy , and reverence them . gen. note in levit. 21. 8. ſ if the oath had such a sense in the times of popery , when the clergy were a distinct corporation , yet when that exemption was abolisht , as a branch of antichristian usurpation , the change of their condition must needs change the intention of the oath . i. g p. 8. z b● . latymers serm. before k. edw. vi. march 8 ▪ 1549. a ecclesia est infra aetatem , & in custodiâ domini regis , qui tenetur jura & haereditates suas manu tenere , & defendere . sir ed : coke in mag , chart. c 1 b ib. c vnlesse they will say , that the crown stands still ingaged to them , to maintain such priviledge● , as by act of parliament were long since abolisht : which is to make his oath to them contariant to that taken before , for the maintenance of the laws . i. g. p. 3. d gen. 41. 4 ▪ e it ▪ s apparent then , to make the intention of the oath to be against legall alteration of their priviledges by parliamēt , makes it unlawfull , and so not obligatory . and if it be not intended against legall alteration , the king may passe a bill for the abolition of episcopacy when his houses of parliament think it convenient , and petition for it , without violation of his oath ▪ i. g. p. 8. g i. g. p. 9. h ib. p. 7. i ib. p. 5. k he that hath power to consent hath power also to dissent . l 1 cor. 7. 37. m lex terrae , p. 14 , 15. n i. g. p. 2. o ib. p ib. q prov. 8. 15. cujus iussu nascuntur homines , huius iussu & reges constituuntur . iren. l. 5. p. 601. r 2 chron. 9 ▪ 8. ſ ib. t i. g. p. 2. u rom. 13. 4. x ib. y 1 s. pet. 2. 13 , 14 z magistratibus ex animo de●erendus est honor , 〈…〉 etiam tyrannis . beza in act. 23. 5 a psal . 51. 4. b i. g. p. 2. c ib. d the king is sworn to maintain the laws of the land in force at his coronation yet no man questions , & the constant practise shews , that it is not unlawfull after to abrogateany upon the motion , or with the consent of his parliament . i. g p. 2 * declarat . of the kingd . of scotland . p. 22. e eccles 8. 4. f ib. g lex terrae , p. 19 h sir ed. coke in litleton , l. 2. sect. 164. i i. g. p. 8. k ib. p. 2. l sir ed : coke in litleton , l. 2. sect. 164. m 1 s pet. 2. 13. n rom. 13. 4. o gen. 41. 40. p ib. v , 43. 44. q ib. v. 40. r gen 45. 9. ſ ib. v ▪ 8. t ib. v ▪ 19 ▪ & 21. u lex terrae , p. 27 x 1 s. pet. 2 ▪ 13 , 14. y i. g. p. 2. z ib. a prov. 24. 24. b 2 cor. 10. 8. c s. matth. 26. ● . d christ is the head of his body , the church . col. 1. 18. 24. e s. joh. 12. 6. f rom. 11. 13. g 1 cor 9. 1. &c. 2 cor. 10 4 &c. 2 cor. 11. 7. 8. h i. g. p. 4. i ib. p. 4. 5. k ib. p. 4. l ib. m i. g. p. 2. n i. g. p. 2. o iust●s est animus qui scientia atque ratione , in vitâ ac moribus ▪ sua cui . que distribuit . aug. de trin ▪ l. 8. c. 6. p rom. 13. 7. q ea , quae contra legem dei fiunt , ju●ta esse non poss●nt . ●ug cont mendac . c. 15. r i. g p. 5. ſ i. g. p. 2. t sir ed. coke in litleton , l. 2. sect. 164. u lex terrae , p. 15 x it is no statute , if the king assent not to it : and he may disassent . lex terrae p. 7. y 1 cor. 12. 13. z ib. v. 14. a ib. v. 19. b ib. v. 21. c ib. v. 22. d ib. v. 25. e 1 cor. 13. 5. f aug. in reg. 3. g the ancient rights , laws , and liberties , are the birthright of the subiects of this land. declarat . parl. july 12. p. 458. h 1 cor. 4 1. i i. g. p 2. k i. g p. 3. l this distinction of the clergie from the laity , that they should be a distinct province of themselves , being a branch of popery , s with it quite extinguisht . i. g. p. 3. m es 49. 23. n psal . 83 5. &c. o isa . 3. 14. p ib. q gen. note in loc . r isa . 54. 15. ſ gen. note in loc . t heb. do . 31. u i. g ▪ p 3. x thou which teachest another , teachest thou not thy self ? thou , that preachest , a man should not steal , doest thou steal ? rom. 2. 21. y tit. 3. 1. z rom. 11. 1. a act. 22. 25. b gal. 1. 1. c 1 cor. 4. 1. and 9. 4. 5. 1● . d act. 22. 26. 29● . rom. 11. 13. act. 25. 10. g s. matt. 22. 42. &c. s. m at . 17 27. s. ioh. 19. 10. 11 k iud. 21. 25. l 8 eliz. 1. m i. g. p. 3. n numb . 3. 12. & 18. 6. o heb. 5. 1. p occumen . in loc . q i. g. p. 3. r ib. p. 8. ſ moses tribum levi , à communione populi segregavit . joseph . antiq. l. 3 c. 13. t deut. 10. 8. num. 16. 9. u num. 1. 47. 49. num ● . 33. &c. x num. 3. 12. y num. 1. 51. z gen. 47. 20 22. a vndoubtedly that privilege was abolisht , that any society should be exempt from secular power : for that were to set up supremacies● g p. 3. b ib. p. 9. c tertul ad scap. c. 2. d bracton . temps h. 3. l. 4. c. 24. sect. 5. sir ed● : coke in litleton la. sect. 140. e 3. ed. 3. 19. f sir ed. coke in litleton , l. 2. sect. 136. g ib. h cod. asric . can . 59. i 1 tim. 5. 1● . k ib. v. 20. tit. 1. 13. l 1 tim. 6. 3 , 4. 5. m beza & piscat . in loc . n 2 tim. 3. 2. &c. o tit. 3. 10 ▪ p piscat . in loc . q sir ed. coke in litletop , l. 2. sect. 136. r ib. ſ ib. sect. 201. t and why may not the great revenues of the bishops b● divided , to maintain a preaching minister● ▪ and their iurisdiction also , for the better over sight and censure of manners ? i. g. p. ● . u cyp ep . 27. n. 1 x quod non peri●●ium metuere debemus , 1 de ●ffenlâ domini , quando aliqui de presbyteris 2 ●ec evangelii , 3 ●ec loci sui memores , 4 sed neque suturum domini judicium , neque nunc sibi praepositum episcopum cogitantes , quod nu●quam omnino sub antecessoribus factum est , cum contemptu & contume●ià praepositi totum sibi vendicent ? atque utinam non 5 prostratâ fratrum nostrorum salute sibi omnia vindicarent cyrp ep . 10. y ignat ad philadelph p 91. z gen. 14. 10. a gen. 47 22. b ib. & v. 26. c ezra 7. 24. d 1 mac. 10. 65. e ib. v. 62. f ib v. 63. g ib. v. 89. h ib v. 63. i heb. 7. 1. k ecclus 45. 20. l exod. 28. 2. m ecclus. 45. 7. n ex. 28. 36. 37. o ecclus. ●5 . 12. p philo iud. de vitâ mosis . q ib. r es . 61 6. s● soli episcopi & presbyteri propri● jam vocantur in ecclesiâ sacerdotes . aug. de civit . dei. l. 10. c. 10. t psal . 45. 17. u rom. 3 4. x s. mat. 10 40. s. luk. 10. 16. y gal. 4. 14. z ib. v ▪ 15. a act. 28. 27. 10. b s. ioh. 13. 20. c act. 14. 20. d 1 tim. 5. 17. e primas . in 1 th ● . ● 23 f 2 cor 7. 15. g theod. in loc . h philip. 2. 29. i ruffin hist . l. 9. c. 10. k theod. hist . l 1. c. 11. l euseb . de vi●â constant . mag. l 1. c. 33. m gelas . cyzie . l. 1. c. 37. n ruffin . hist . l 9. c. 10. o euseb de vitâ constant . m. l 4. c. 27. p theodoret. hist . l. 1. c. 2. q euseb . de vitâ constant m. l. 1. c. 35. r ius graeco-rom●tom . 2. lib. leonis & constant tit. 3. n 8. ſ 2 reg. ● . 12. &c. 13. 14. t gen note in 2 reg. 13. 14. u ib. x immunities arising from the error of the times , not the tenure of scripture . i. g. p 4. y one of the privileges of the clergie was for the bishops to sit and vote in the house of peers . yet that is abolish● as incongruous to their calling i. g. p. 4. z lex terrae p. 14 a sir ed. coke in litleton , l 2. sect. 138. b omne factum , si rectè factum non est , peccatum est , nec rectè factum esse ullo modo potest , quod non à rectâ ratione proficiscitur . aug. de util . credendi . c. 12. c gu●d . pancirol . de magistrat ▪ municipal . c. 2. d ib. c. ● . e ●useb . de vitâ constant . m. l. 1. c 33 f psal . 45. 17. g psal . ●9 ● . h exod. 18. 14. 17. &c. i 2. reg. 12. 2. k iustice ienkins inconven . p. 4. l ib. m ib. n ib. p. 5. o exod. 25. 10. p sit ed. coke instit . part 4. c 1. sect. of what persons . q mag , charta . c. 38. r s. mat. 10. 12. ſ rom. 12. 14. t gal. 1. 10. u ib. x rom. 6. 16. y s. mat. 25. 30. z defensionem ecclesiae anglic●●ae , that is gone . just ienkins inconven . p. 5. a sir ed coke instit . part 4. c. 1. sect. the matters . b iustice ienkins inconvenien p. 5. c ib. p. 4. d 1 chron. 13. 1. e ib. v. 7. f 2 sam. 67. vzzah died before the ark , for usurping that , which did ▪ not appertain to his vocation● for this charge was given to the priests , gen. note in 1 chron 13 10. g mai. 2 7. h numb . 4 15. i 1 chron. 15. 13. k ib. l ib. m 1 chron. 15. 2. n ib. v. 13. o ib. ● . 12. p ib. v. 1● . q num. 4. 15. r 1 chron. 15. 26. ſ 1 chron. 17. 1. t sir id coke inssit . part . 4. c. 1. sect. the matters . u ib. x iust . ienkins inconven . p 5 ▪ y iust ienkins inconven . p ● . instit . ●●● . 4 ▪ c 1. sect of what persons ▪ z sir ed. coke ib. a 1. cor. 12. 22. 23 b 1 s. p●● . 2 ▪ 21. c lex terrae p. 14 d sir ed coke instit . part . ● c. 1. sect. of what persons . f beda eccles ▪ hist l. 3. c. 7. g bafil . m. ●p . ●1 . h rog. hoveden . in hen. ● . p ▪ 601. i confer . at hampt . court p. 36. & 82. k 2 reg. 13. 14. l 1 tim. 2 : 1. m occumen . in ioc. n ●4 ed. 1 c. 1. & 14. ed. 3. c. 1. o hos . 5. 0 p gen. note in ioc. q hos . 5. 10. r and then why may not the removall of their ecclesiasticall iurisdiction be consented to , as well , if it prove inconvenient & prejudiciall to the church . i. g. p. 4. ſ the abolition of the one , is no more against the oath then of the other . i. g. p. 4. t i. g. p. 4. u in all which respects the oath was invalid ▪ being vinculum iniquitatis . i. g. p. 4. x ib. p. 1. y ib. p. 3. z ib. p. 4. a ib. b ib. c act. 8. 23. d i. g. p 4. e ib. f s mat 19 ▪ 2● . g i. g. p. 4. h ib. i ib. k ib. l ib. m ib. n ib. o ib. p. 6. p haereticus est , ut mea fe●t opinio , qui alicuius temporalis commodi & maximè gloriae principatusque sui gratiâ , falsas ac novas opiniones vel gignit , vel sequitur . aug deutil ▪ credend . c. 1. q i. g. p. ● . r ib. ſ princeps supra legem divinam non est , positailla quippe ab eo est , qui supra ipsum est : neque supra naturalem , quae aboleri non potest nisi cum naturâ ipsâ . io. be daeus de jure regio c. 2. t lex terrae p. 29. u 8. joh. 15. 20 x i. g. p. 5. * all kings by the royall office , and oath of coronation , are obliged to protect their laws and subjects . declarat of the kingd . of scotland . p. 20 y i. d. p. 6. z calv. lex jutid . in verbo ius . a i. g. p. 2. b ingagements to a societie to maintain their rights , indulged for the personall worth of present incumbents , or to promote the usefulnesse of the office : if in their matters they prove prejudiciall to the office , or the succeeding officers by their ill demeanour forfeit them , their ingagement becomes alterable . i g p. 5. c 1 reg 2. 27. d ib. v. ●5 . e gen. ●8 . 25 26. f lactan. instit . l. 6. c. 9. g vbi iusticia ve ra non est , nec ius potest esse . quod enim iure fit , iustè sit . quod autem fi●imustè , nec ●●re fieri potest . aug. de civit . dei. l. 19. c. 21. r see c. 13. sect 13. ſ aug. de civit. dei. l. 2. c. 21. t aug de civit . dei l 2. c. 21. u ib. x aug. ib. l. 19. c. 21. y i. g. p. 5. z of the later sort , is this ingagement to the english clergy . ib. a ezra 6 8 , 9. b ib. v. 11. 12. c ezra 7. 15 , 16. d ib. v. 24. e ib. v. 26. f ezra 1. 8. g ezra 7. 6. h ib. i i. g. p. 5. k cap. 4. 5. l act. 1. 25. m ib. v. 20. n there 's no injustice done to make a law to overrule or alter this ingagement . i. g. p. 5. ●1 sam. 2. 12. 22. p there 's no question of power in the parliament , to overrule it . i. g. p. 5. q 1 reg. 21. 13. 16 r the ingagement were gone in law , though not in equity . the order would be valid in law , though injurious . i. g. p. 5. ſ ib. t ib. u aug. in psal . 145. 6. x tho. 2. 2● . q. 57. 1. 2m . y i. d. p. 6. z aug. in psal . ●45 . 6. a ib. b the kings oath is against acting or suffering a tyrannous invasion on laws and rights , not against a parliamentary alt●ration . i. g ▪ p. 2 c so if there be no injury , the king and parliament may cancel any obligation . i. g p. 5. d ib. e ib. f where there is forfeiture by miscarriage , or the privilege indulged to a ministery , proves preiudiciall : the abrogation will be just . ib. g 1 cor. 9. 7. h ib. v. 11. & rom. 15. 27. i if we have sowen unto you spirituall things , is it a great thing , if we shall reap ▪ your carnall things ? 1 cor. 9. 11. k act. 20 34. & 1 thes . 2. 9. 2 thes . 3. 8. l 2 cor. 11. 8. m 1 cor. 9. 4. n 2 thes . 3. 9. o 2 cor. 12. 13. p the privilege indulged to a ministery ( which ought to hold nothing but for publick good ) proves predudiciall . i. g. p. 5. q ● . d. p. 114. &c. r mag ▪ char. c. 1. ſ rog hoveden in hen. 2. p. 601. t ib. u prefat . de non temerand . eccles . x i hope , they will not be so tenacious of their wealth and honor , as to let the crown run an hazard , rather then lay down their miters , and indanger the whole land to be brought to nothing , rather then themselves to moderation i g. p. 5. a in cod. edgar● apud selden . in notis . ad eadmer . p 159. n. 10. b ersi abbas , vel fratrum aliquis , incitante daemone , reatus quippiam contraxerit ; quia deus , qui hanc privilegii largifluam donationem locumque cum universâ monachorum familiâ , ruraque omnia sa●io subiecta coenobio possidet , nunquam rea●um commisit , nec ullo unquam tempore committet . sit igitur prae●ata libertas aet●rn● , quia deus libertatis possessor aeternus est . ib. c act ▪ 1. 20. y take it at the worst , it is but for the king to get the clergies consent i. g. p. 5. z no injurie done to him , that consents . a jonah 1. 12. b ambros . orat . in auxent . de basil . tradend . ep . l 5. c tradere bafilicam non possum , sed pugnare non debeo . ambros , ep . 33. d ambros . orat . in auxent . de basil . tradend . e act. 5. 1. &c. f ib. v. 4. g s. mat. 22. 21. h s. luk. 23. 33. i i. g. p. 6. k ib. l s. luk. 10. 30. m to abolish prelacy , and seize the revenues of prelates , to private , or civill interest , undoubtedly could neither want stain , nor guilt , such kind of impropriation as happened in the dayes of h. 8. was cried out of , all the christian world over . i. g. p. 6. n ib. o who knows not the great defect amongst us , of congruous maintenance for ▪ parcchiali pastors , by whom the work of the ministery is chiefly to be performed , i. g. p. 6. p c. 4. & 5. q if those large revenues of the prelates were diverted ●o supply with sufficient maintenance all the defective parishes in england , there would ●e no danger of sacrileg● i. g. p. 6. * numb . 16. 38. r levit. 27. 28. ſ gen. note in levit. 27. 2● . t caiet , in levit. 27. 28. u jos . 7. 25. x ib. v. 11. y i. g. p. 6. z euseb . hist . l. 1. c. 35. sozom l 1. c. 8. a euseb . hist . l. 7. c. 24. b cypr ep 56. 36 60. 61. c mat westminst . an dom 187. d possed , de vitâ . august c 1. e aug ep . 225. f aug. ep . 224. g possid . de vitâ august . c. 23. h ib c. 24. i ib. c. 25. concil . antioch . can . 25. k cypr. ep . 38. & concil . chalced. can . 26. * concil . anti. och . can . 25. l concil . ancyr . can . 15. m act. 4. 34. 35. 37. & 5. ● . n act 6. 3. o ib. p 1 tim. 5. 17. q 2 cor. 1● . 14. r 2 tim 2. 2. ſ 1 tim. 1. 3. t 1 tim. 6. 3. 5. u 1 cor. 5. 11. x 2 joh. 10. y possid . de virâ august , c. 25. z i. g. p. 6. a ib. b prefat . de non temerand . eccles . c i. g p. 5. d i. g. p. 6. e ib. f deut. 23. 18. g theod. hist . l. 3. c. 11. h ignat. ad rom. p. 250. hieron . damas . ep . 57. 58. basil . m. ep . 292. cypr. ep . 3 n. 6. & ep . 38. n. 3. i concil . antioch can . 9. 19. christ . justellus in cod . eccles . univer . can . 88. k tit. 1. 5. l that , by , or for which , any thing is made so , is more so . m solemn league and coven . n. 4. n i. g. p. 9. o sol. league & coven . n. 2. p i. d. q tit. 1. 5. r cypr. ep . 37. n. 1. ſ ephes . 2. 20. t cypr. ep . 65. n. 3. u prov. 28. 24. x concil . chalced . can 25. y a work , for which following generations should not need to pity the king , as put upon it by misfortune : but rise up , and call him blessed , whose many other disasters ended in so good , and so usefull a work . i. g. p 6. z 1 sam. 15. 24. a ib. ● . 26. b you see the ingagement put upon the king , is but to his power : as every good king ought inright to protect and defend the bishops & churches under their government . i. g p 8 c isa . 40. 22 d i answer from the expressions in the oath it self , a● they are set down by the same author . i. g. p. 8. e sir ed. coke proem . in mag. chart. f psal . 80. 13. g ib. v. 25. h such power is no further , then he can do it , without sinning against god , and being injurious to the rest of his people . i. g. p. 8. i rom. 13. 1. 4. k when he hath interposed his authority for them , and put forth all the power he hath to preserve them : he hath gone to the extent of his power , and as far as good kings are bound in right . i. g. p. 8. l confer . at hampt . court. p. 36. m s. mat. 27. 4. n if after all this he must let them fall , or support them with the blood of his good subjects . i. g. p. 8. o and those unwilling too , to ingage their liues for the other privileges . i. g. p. 8. p jud. 3. 9. q nehem. 6. 17. 18. 19. r 1 cor. 9. 11. ſ iud. 17. 7. t ib. v. 10. u mag. charta c. 37. x i. g. p. 6. ● y 25. ed. 3. * concil . chalced . can . 24. z statut. de provisor . 25. ed. 3. a stat. of the clergy . 14. ed. 3. 1 b mag. charta . c. 37. c ib. d i. g. p. 8. e that were to be cruel to many thousand , to be indulgent to a few , i. g. p. 8. f i. g. p. 8. g i think , none will affirm it . i. g. p. 9. h mag. charta , c. 37. 38. i sir ed coke in litleton . l. 2. sect. 139. k sir ed coke in mag. chart. c. 1. l statute of armour . 7. ed. 1. & 1. eliz. 3. m such is the case with the king in this particular . i. g. p. 9. n i. g. p. 9. o if the king should be peremptory in deniall , what help would this be to them ? such peremptorinesse in this circumstance might in danger his crown , not save their mitres . i. g. p. 9. p s mat. 10. 28. q hebr. 10. 31. r vsque adeò peccatum voluntarium malum est , ut nullo modo sit peccatum , si non sit voluntarium . aug. de vera relig c. 14. ſ deut. 22 26. t ib. v. 25. t though it be in his power to deny assent to their abolition , in a naturall sense , because voluntas nonpotest cog● ; yet it is not in his power in a morall sense , because he cannot now deny consent without sin . i. g. p. 9. u aug. de fide cont , manish c. 9. x hoc habemus in potestate , quod cum volumus , possumus . aug. cont maximin . l. 3. c. 14. * far are we from taking away his negative voice . exact collect , of remonst , & declarat , p. 727. x i. g. p. 9. y rom. 4. 15. * declarat . of the kingd . of scotland . p. 19. z lexterrae . p. 14. a ib , p. 29. b i hope they will not be so tenacious of their wealth and honour , as to let the crown run an hazard , and indanger the whole land. i. g. p. 5 , c that the revenues be divided to maintain a preaching ministery . i g. p. 4. d num. 16. 2. c num. 16 , 16. 17. 35. f ib. v 2. g ib. v. 3. h ib. v. 7. i ib. v. 9. 10. k ib. v. 40. l ib. v. 42. m ib. v. 41. n ib. v. 49. o numb . 7 8. p ib. v. 10. q psal . 54 7. r ib. v. 8. ſ that was to set up t●o supremacies . i , g. p. 3. t i. g. p. 9. u 3 eliz. 9. &c. x that the supremum jus dominii , even that , which is above all laws , is in the king , which , under favour , i conceive , in our state is a manifest error . i. g. p. 9. y i. g. p. 9. z rex non parē habet in regno suo . bract. temps . el. 3. l. 4. c. 24. sect. 5. a 1. s. pet 2. 13. 14. b tertul. ad scap. c. 2. c tertul. apol. c. 30. d optat. l. 3. e 16. rich. 2. 5. f 24. hen. 8. 12. & 1. eliz. 1. g 1. eliz. 1. h chrysost . theodoret . theophilact . occum . in rom. 13. 1. i act. 25. 10. k ib. v. 11. l act. 26. 32. m hug grot. de jure belli l. 1 c. 3. sect 7. n atnob . in psal . 51. 4. o eccles . 8. 4. p psal 51. 4. q instit . of a christ man fol 86. the supreme and soveraigne prince hath none between him and god , representing the person of god , executing his office , and in this respect bearing his name : to whom onely he is accountable dr. corn burgesse , fire of the sanct. p. 263. r rex solus , omnium subditorū , tam laicorum , quam ecclesiasticorum , in suis ditionibus supremus est dominus commo fact . & postulat ●●g . cogni p 38 ſ arnob. in psal . 51. 4 t 24. hen. 8. 12. & 1 eliz. 1. u sir rob. cotton . p 5. x 1. eliz. 3. y 16. ri● . 2. 5. z 1. eliz. 1. b sir ed coke instit . l 4. c 1. sect. the severall forms c i. g. p. 8. d rot. clausa . an. 59. hen. 3. e sir rob cotton , p. 3 , f sir ed. coke in litleton , l 2 sect. 164. g sir rob. cotton p. 8. h i. g. p. 9. i rot. claus . an. 59. hen. 3. k speed in ric. 2 , c. 13. n. 102. l sir ed. coke in sti●l 4 c. ● . sect how parliaments succeed . m 12. ed. 4. 3. & 2. men. 5. 6. 9 ▪ n 13 eliz. 2 ▪ & 27. eliz 17. o sir fd. coke in litleton , l. 2. sect. 140. p praesumitur rex habere omnia jurain scrinio pectoris sui . ib. q i. g. p. 9. q the houses of parliament without the king cannot enact any laws . declarat ▪ of the kingd . of scotland p 19. r bract. temps . h. 3. l. 4. c. 24. sect. 1. ſ ●lowd ▪ 234. 242. t bract ib. u ib. x lex . terrae : p. 4. y bract. temps . h. 3. l. 4. c. 24. sect. 5. z ib. a 3 ed. 3. 19. b lex terrae p. 7. c nee regna socium ferre nec tedae queunt . d sir ed coke reports , part . 2. magd. college case . e i. g. p. 9. f sir rob. cotton . p 1. g ib. h sir ed coke in litleton , l 2. sect. 164. i sir rob. cotton p. 8. k ib. p. 9. l ib p. 11. m sir ed coke in litleton , l. 2. sect. 164. n sir rob. cotton p , 3. o ib. p the supremum jus dominis , that is over all laws , to make or disanull them at pleasure , is neither in the king , nor in the houses aparti but in both conjoyned . i. g. p. 9. q in his proclamation before the book of common prayer . r illud exploratissimum est , leges patrias aut mutare , aut ad earum obsequium sese non accommoda ▪ re , negotium semper cum periculo fuisse conjuncti●simum . smith , de repub. anglorum l. 1. c. 5. ſ psal . 80. 5. 6. t i. g. p. 9. u ib. x potentia sequi debet ●u●●ti●m , no● praeire augde trin l. ●● . c. 13. y the forms or acts of parliament sometimes beein with concessimus , or statuit rex and of latter times laws and statutes begin , as deinz enacted by the king , &c declarat . of the kingd of scot and , p. 19. * nat brev. tit . pro●ection fol 28 z p●u●imum ●acit ad populum corrigendum multorum in unâ re sententia atque consensus . hieron . in gal. 1. 2. a sir ed : coke in mag chart. c. 1. b sir ed. coke in litleton , l. 2. sect. 139. c notit ▪ imperii orient . c. 159. d lex terrae . p. 5. e this oath to the clergy , cannot ingage him against the legall privileges of the people , or parliament i. g. p. 9. f i. g p. 5. 6. g ib. p. 9. h i. g. p. 9. i rom. 137. k one of which is to be ready , by confirming needfull bills to relieve thē against whatsoever grievance they suffer from any . i. g. p. 10. l 25 ed. 3. 2. m 1. s. ●et . 2. 14. n apud jo. coch in notis ad maccoth c. 1. n. 31. o thus i think the case is sufficiently cleared , that notwithstanding the kings oath to the clergie at his coronation , he may consent to the extirpation of prelaey out of the church of england . i. g. p. 10 p ib. p. 9. a defence of the principles of love, which are necessary to the unity and concord of christians and are delivered in a book called the cure of church-divisions ... / by richard baxter ... baxter, richard, 1615-1691. 1671 approx. 456 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 152 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2004-08 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a26912 wing b1239 estc r263 12625522 ocm 12625522 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(eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a26912) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 64624) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 344:1) a defence of the principles of love, which are necessary to the unity and concord of christians and are delivered in a book called the cure of church-divisions ... / by richard baxter ... baxter, richard, 1615-1691. [15], 104, 183 p. printed for nevil simmons ..., london : 1671. an answer to edward bagshaw's "an antidote against mr. baxter's palliated cure of church-divisions." cf. matthews, a.g. works of richard baxter, 1932, p. 26. pt. 1 has special t.p. with title: the general part or introduction to the defence of my cure of church-divisions. pt. 2 has caption title: an answer to the untrue and unjust exceptions of the antidote against my treatise for love and unity. reproduction of original in huntington library. marginal notes. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng bagshaw, edward, 1629-1671. -antidote against mr. baxters palliated cure of church divisions. baxter, richard, 1615-1691. -cure of church-divisions. church polity -early works to 1800. 2004-04 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2004-04 apex covantage keyed and coded from proquest page images 2004-05 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2004-05 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-07 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion a defence of the principles of love , which are necessary to the unity and concord of christians ; and are delivered in a book called the cure of church-divisions . i. inviting all sound and sober christians , ( by what name soever called ) to receive each other to communion in the same churches . ii. and where that ( which is first desirable ) cannot be attained , to bear with each other in their distinct assemblies , and to manage them all in christian love. written to detect and eradicate all love-killing , dividing , and church-destroying principles , passions and practices , and to preserve the weak in this hour of manifold temptation . by richard baxter one of the mourners for a self-dividing and self-afflicting land. psal. 120. 6 , 7. my soul hath long dwelt with him that hateth peace . i am for peace : but when i speak , they are for war. didicerat enim ( rex edilberth ) & à doctoribus auctoribusque suae salutis , servitium christi voluntarium , non coactitium , debere esse . beda hist. eccles. lib 1. cap. 26 london , printed for nevil simmons , at the sign of the three crowns near holborn conduit . 1671. calvinus in matth. 13. 35 , 36 , 37 , &c. hoc porro multis valde absurdum esse videtur , in ecclesiae sinu foveri vel impios homines , vel profanos vel sceleratos : adde quod plerique zeli praetextu plus aequo morosi , nisi omnia ad eorum votum composita sint quia nusquam apparet absoluta puritas , tumultuose ab ecclesia discedunt , vel importuno rigore eam evertunt & perdunt . quare hic meo judicio simplex est parabolae scopus : quamdiu in hoc mundo peregrinatur ecclesia , bonis & sinceris in ea permixtos fore malos & hypocritas , ut se patientia arment filii dei , & inter offendicula quibus turbari possent , retineant infractam fidei constantiam — est quidem haec valde molesta conditio , quod reprobis o●eratur ecclesia usque ad finem mundi : hoc tamen tempus nobis ad patientiam ideo christus praescribit , ne vanâ spe nos lactemus . — graviter quidem pastores incumbere decet ad purgandam ecclesiam ; et hac in parte ab omnibus piis adjuvandi sunt , quatenus fert cujusque vocatio . verum ubi omnes in commune mutuas operas contulerint , non tamen eo usque proficient , ut penitus ab omni sorde purgent ecclesiam . — deinde etiam eorum zelum froenare & moderari , qui fas esse non putant societatem nisi cum puris angelis colere . qui ad extirpandum quicquid displicet ꝑraepostere festinant , antevertunt quantum in se est , christi judicium , & ereptum angelis officium temere sibi usurpant . — et in mat. 6. [ quod iohannes privatam orandi ●●r●nam t●adidit suis discipulis , id f●cisse existimo prout temporis ratio fereba● . res tune valde apud iudaeos corruptas fuisse notum est : tota certe religio sic collapsa erat , ut mi●um non sit precandi morem à pa●cis rit● cultum fuisse . ru●sus quum instar●t promiss● redemptio , sidelium mentes precand● ad ejus spem & d●siderium ex●itari oportuit . iohannes ex variis scripturae locis certam aliquam precationem conficere potuit quae tempori congrueret , ac propius accederet ad spirituale christi regnum — et in rom. 14. 3. prudenter & apposite utriusque vitiis occurrit . h●c enim vitio laborant qui sunt firmiores , ut eos qui inanibus scrupulis detinentur , ●in●uam superstitiosulos despiciant , atque irrideant : contra hi vix sibi cavere à temerariis judiciis queunt , ut no● damnent quod non assequuntur : quicquid fieri contra suum sensum cernunt , illud malum esse putant : illos ergo à contemptu dehortatur , hos à nimia morositate . ] calvin on matth. 13. this seemeth very absurd to many , that ungodly , or prophane , or wicked men , are cherished in the bosome of the church : and very many being over morose under pretence of zeal , unless all things be composed to their desires , because absolute purity is no where to be found , do tumultuously depart from the church , or by unseasonable rigidness do overthrow and destroy it . therefore in my judgement , this is the simple scope of the parable : that as long as the church sojourneth in this world , bad men and hypocrites will be mixt with the good and sincere in it ; that gods children may arm themselves with patience , and among the offences that might trouble them , may retain unbroken faith and constancy : — indeed this is a very troublesome condition , that the church is burthened with reprobates to the worlds end : but this is the space that christ prescribeth us for patience , lest we flatter our selves with empty hopes — the pastors indeed must diligently labour to purge the church : and in this all godly men should help them , as far as their calling doth allow . but when all men have done their best , they shall not so far have success , as to purge the church from all defilements . — and christ would bridle and moderate their zeal , who think it unlawful to have communion ( or fellowship ) with any but pure angels — they that preposterously make haste to root out all that displeaseth them , do as much as in them is prevent christs judgement , and snatch and usurp the angels work . calv. on mat. 6. that iohn delivered a private form of prayer to his disciples , i suppose he did it in suitableness to the time . that matters were then very corrupt with the jews , is known . all religion was so collapsed , that it is no wonder that the manner of praying was rightly observed but by few . and when the promised redemption was at hand , it was meet that the minds of the faithful should by prayer be stirred up to desire and hope for it . iohn might from several places of scripture make up one certain prayer , which should be agreeable to the time , and might come nearer to the spiritual kingdom of christ. here i desire the reader again to note , that though prayer was then so corrupted by the pharisees , yet christ usually joyned in their synagogues , luke 14. 17. and never medled with our controversie , about the lawfulness of set forms . calv. on rom. 14. 3. paul doth prudently and fitly meet with the faults of both sides : for this is the fault of the strong , that they despise and deride them as superstitious folk who are detained with vain scruples : on the contrary these can hardly forbear censorious condemning that which they understand not : and they think that to be evil , which is against their own sense . therefore paul disswadeth the one sort from contempt , and the other from overmuch moroseness . the contents of the first part . a preface to those readers who are of the excepters mind , and are offended at my book , called the cure of church-divisions , expostulating with them that have made my perswasions to love and communion , the occasion of their displeasure , backbitings and slanders ; and proveing the necessity of union among all real christians , and in particular between the non-conformists and conformists . 1. the general part , or introduction . chap. 1. a narrative of those late actions which have occasioned mens displeasure of both sides against me : the reasons of my omitting the narration of those former actions , which mr. durel and many others have reported falsly , because they wrote of that which they knew not : the reasons of my earnest displeasing endeavours with the bishops for reconciling and uniting terms in 1660. our common profession about a liturgie at that time , and about this liturgie , and my practiee ever since . how the non-conformists must be united among themselves . of our judgement about communion in the liturgie and sacrament with the parish churches in a● . 1663. my ends in opening this . 27. reasons for the writing and publishing my book called the cure of church-divisions . a word of the debatemaker . of the filse reports that have been vented of my book a●d me , and of some inferences to be noted by the reporters . chap. 2. the state of the controversie which i specialy managed in that book , with th●se that i called di●iders . chap. 3. objections and questions about this subject . quest. 1. doth not the second commandment and gods oft expressed jealousie in the matters of his worship , make it a sin to communicate in the liturgie ? quest. 2. doth not the covenant make it now unlawfull ? quest. 3. whether the case be not much altered since the old non-c●nformists wrote against separation , then called brownisme ? and whether we have not greater light into these controversies , than they had ? quest. 4 ▪ is it not a shameful receding from our reformation , now to use an unreformed liturgie ? and a pulling down what we have been building ? quest. 5. will it not strengthen and encourage the adversaries of reformation ? quest. 6. will it not divide us among our selves , while one goeth to the parish churches , and another doth not ? quest. 7. shall we not countenance church tyranny , and harden prelates in their usurpations , and invite them to go further , and make more burdens of ceremonies or forms to lay upon the churches ? the manifold danger of feigning the scripture to be a particular rule , where it is none . the contents of the answer to the exceptions . except . 1. false worship distinguished and opened : whether i speak very little against persecution ? exc. 2. whether i was as guilty as any one whatsoever in stirring up and fomenting the war. whether it be unbecoming a minister to blame the sin which he hath been guilty of ? or to blame the effects , if he encouraged the cause ? whether nothing of the late military actions , be to be openly repented of ? whether i never mention the prophane , but with honour ? exc. 3. of partial tenderness as to reproof ? whether my prayer was jesting ? &c. exc. 4. of the supposed expressions of my pride . exc. 5. more of the excepters mistakes . exc. 6. what separation scripture calleth us to , and what not ? exc. 7. of the corruptions in the primitive churches , and of imposing . exc. 8. whether i be a revealer of mens secrets ? exc. 9. whether the universality of christians ever took the pope for their head ? of my dispute with mr. johnson ( alias , terret ) on that point . whether all history be uncertain ? whether it be intolerable to say , that the papists understand not that answer which is christian sense and reason . exc. 10. of local communion : of separating from the particular churches which we were never members of . exc. 11. of censurers requitals . whether a papist can go beyond a reprobate ? exc. 12. of scandal ; and of pauls case ; 1 cor. 8. explained . exc. 13. more of my revealing secrets , and other of the excepters mistakes . exc. 14. whether by separatists , i meant the independents as such ? exc. 15. whether i speak slightly of prayer in comparison of study ? whether it be a slighting of christ , to say that he increased in wisdom ? which is opened . whether christ needed not prayer , but as a pattern to us ? &c. exc. 16. of expounding scripture by the impressions set upon our minds , in melancholy . how the spirit cureth our fears , and giveth us comfort , by twelve acts . exc. 17. whether my saying , that god hateth neither extemporate prayers nor forms , be as if i could never speak meanly enough of prayer ? whether i be a trifler , that neither believe the scripture or my self , for saying that in christs time , both liturgies by forms , and prayers by habit were used , and that christ yet made no question about them ? seldens words upon the iews liturgies . exc. 18. whether i did ill in disswading men from jeering and jesting at other true christians manner of worship ? and whether i purposely justifie persecution ? exc. 19. whether all be idolatry which is used in the worship of god without a command of god to make it lawful . the unhappy consequents of making so many christians and churches idolatrous . exc. 20. more of the excepters mistakes . exc. 21. whether our presence at the prayers of every church , be a professing of consent to all that is faulty in those prayers ? exc. 22. of not silencing any truth for peace . exc. 23. of imprudent speeches to superiours . exc. 24. whether there ●e any weak , ignorant and injudicious christians ; and whether they hereby have been any cause of our divisions ? and whether these be vile epithets , not to be given to christians , but instead of them all christians are to be told , that they have the anointing and know all things ? twenty proofs of such ignorance : and the greatness of their sin ( especially ministers ) that would hide it or deny it , at this time , manifested in forty aggravations . exc. 25. whether any hearers use to be more moved with the affectionate delivery of meaner than with a colder delivery of more excellent things ? of my forsaking the lords work . exc. 26. whether there be any article necessary to salvation unknown to the universal church ? whether in points of difficult speculation , one clear judicious well studied divine be not to be more hearkened to , than the major vote ? whether the perfection and plainness of the scriptures prove all christians to be of equal understanding , or to need no others help ? exc. 27. whether honest people be not in danger of following others into error and sin ? and whether to say so , be enough to make people afraid of being honest ? exc. 28. whether it be new or intolerable , to advise men not to imitate religious people in the sins which they are most prone to ? what it is to flatter professors of religion ; and what it is in them to expect it . exc. 29. of the name of a sect. exc. 30. whether we must avoid that good which is owned by bad men ? exc. 31. of his accusations of my unsetledness in the point of church government , and suspectedness in the point of iustification . exc. 32. whether we can speak bad enough of corrupted nature . twenty instances of speaking too bad of it . whether i understand by the [ flesh ] only the sensitive appetive ? whether i be strongly inclined to deny original sin ? of free-will . exc. 33. & 34. of other mistakes of the excepter . exc. 35. whether no persecution may consist with love ? exc. 36. & 37. of the fewness of believers , &c. exc. 38. more of his mistakes . exc. 39. whether the same spirit may not now use the ancient prayers and responses which first brought them in , or used them ? exc. 40. of my comparing ol. cromwell to maximus , and whether i dedicated a flattering book to his son ? exc. 41. of his imputation of levity . the conclusion , with some advice to the excepter , and a lamentation for the decay of love. a postscript . shewing how far , as mr. jacob and the old independents , so the new england pastors and elders ( and magistrates ) are from approving of the principles of separation . reasons why i am against the new terms of church-membership , and the approaches of some independents toward separation . reasons why the independent churches should as much fear the principles of separation as any . the preface to those readers who are of the excepters mind , and are offended at my book called , the cure of church-divisions . brethren , why should i wonder at the fruits of those weaknesses which we are all subject to ( some more , some less ) in this state of imperfection ? and which i so lately told you of at large , in my character of and directions for weak-christians . if a spirit of infallibility and miracles in paul and other the apostles of our lord , could not overcome these lamentable failings , in their hearers and followers , in the primitive church , why should such as i look for more success . if paul thought his galatians foolish and bewitched gal. 3. 1. and his corinthian christians to be babes , yea carnal and not spiritual , because there were among them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , envying , strife , and divisions , or as the words signifie , zeal or emulation , strife and separations or factions , or dividing into several parties , while one saith , i am of paul , and another i am of apollos ; what wonder if we are no better now . but our sins are not the less because that others had the like , but the greater because we take not warning by them , when the spirit of god hath so smartly reprehended them . i have as little reason as you to be ignorant what provocations the present militating and exasperated parties do give each others ; and how fair pretenses uncharitableness hath obtained . and i know but few of you that have either more openly put themselves into the breach , and attempted more to have prevented both severities against you , and the present divisions among us , than i have done , or that have undergone more wrath and calumny ( to mention no other kind of sufferings ) for such attempts than i have done : you cannot justly think that it is for want of your provocations and temptations to discontent , that i am not of your mind . i have had as many and great provocations as most of you all : and i am not naturally without those passions , which would take advantage by such usage . a multitude of fierce and reproachful volumes are written against me , many of them abounding with gross untruths in matter of fact ; to all which i have for peace sake been silent to this day . and none that know me do think , that it is to escape mens wrath that i have been more for peace and unity than you . i will do that right to them that have done me but little , as to testifie that i verily believe , could my conscience comply with their opinions and wills , i could as soon have their favour as most among you . but god is still the god of love , and peace , and concord ; and so must all his servants be : he changeth not , and we must not change from this which is his image . this is my religion ; and if any mens provocations must change me from this , they must change my religion . i am not for such fruits of suffering as some late eminent prisoners in london were , who turned quakers in prison , and lost their religion with their liberty ; nor will i pretend conscience for the defiling of my conscience , and the forsaking of the sacred life of love. do you not your selves condemn a carnal state ? remember then that they are carnal who are contentious dividers in the churches , 1 cor. 3. 1 , 2 , 3. you will i doubt not joyn with me in disallowing of a fleshly mind and life : remember then that the workes of the flesh are these , as adulteries , fornications , &c. so also , hatred ( or enmities ) variance , emulations , wrath , strife , seditions ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , dividings into parties ) heresies , envyings , &c. i know you will confess that if any man have not the spirit of christ , the same is none of his , rom. 8. 9. remember then that the spirit of christ is the spirit of love ; love to god and man is that divine nature which god indueth all christs members with . the fruit of the spirit is love , joy , peace , long-suffering , gentleness , goodness , faith , meekness , temperance , gal. 5. 20 , 21 , 22. when we think our selves wiser than those we differ from , let us not shew it by masterly censoriousness or contempt , but by being as much more loving and peaceable than they are . my brethren be not many masters , knowing that ye shall receive the greater condemnation . and when other mens faults rise up before you , watch both your passions and your tongues , remembring that in many things we all offend : and if any man offend not in word , the same is a perfect man , and able to bridle the whole body . who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you ? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom : but if ye have a bitter envious zeal and strife in your hearts , glory not and lie not against the truth : this wisdom descendeth not from above , but is earthly , sensual , devillish : for where envying zeal ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) and strife is , there is confusion and every evil work , jam. 3. 1 , 2 , 13 , 14 , 15 , 16. brethren no change of times will allow me to change from this which is my religion : no injuries from men will excuse me if i forsake it . i hope i shall not be such a changeling in this which is the great command of the gospel , and the fulfilling of the law , and the very heart of all religion , as to turn from it for a prison or a voluminous calumny and reproach . i confess i must change , but i hope it will be , to turn still to more and more love and concord , and not to less . it is not thank worthy to love those that love us , nor to speak well of those that use us well , nor to take it patiently when we are bussetted or punished for our faults : but if we suffer for well doing , and lose none of our love or patience or integrity by our sufferings , happy are we . alas how sadly do many mistake , that fear only yielding to those whom they suffer by , and do not fear those passions , which would quench their love , and turn them unto sects and heresies , in meer opposition to their afflicters . i know that the great objection is , that under pretence of love , i would bring ungodly persecutors into reputation , and tempt men to unlawful communion with them , and that i make an ill application of good principles , to hide the odiousness of their sins , that care so little for the souls of men , as their usage of ministers and people doth openly declare . if i had only perswaded you to unite in love to one another , and not to think better of the destroyers of the church , nor to comply with them in their idolatrous way of worship , you could have born it . brethren , will you , that take it for injustice in a iudge , who will condemn a man before he hear him speak for himself , be intreated but to repress your passions for a little while , till you have calmely considered these things following . 1. did i ever perswade you to think well of the faults of other men , while i perswaded you to love their persons ? ( unless you call the communion a fault of which we are to speak anon ) did i ever seek to abate your dislike of the sins which you most speak against ? either malignity , cruelty , persecution , or any other . 2. the thing which i perswaded men to in that book , was communion with all christians , ( but differently as they differ in degrees of purity . ) that which i motioned and pleaded for , i summed up in the latter end , with the contrary extreams ; which you may there read in five propositions , 1. to adhere to the primitive simplicity , and make nothing necessary to our concord and communion which is not so . 2. to love your neighbours as your selves , and receive those to communion whom christ receiveth , and that hold the foresaid necessary things , be they episcopal , presbyterian , independents , anabaptists , calvinists , arminians , lutherans , &c. so they be not proved heretical or wicked . peruse the rest . when you come to your selves you will confess that this was no unreasonable nor unchristian motion ? which of all these parties is it that you are angry with me for perswading you to communion with ? must every one of the parties renounce communion with all the rest ? o how unlike is this doctrine to that of the holy ghost ? 1 cor. 1. 10. & 3. 1 , 2 , 3. rom. 14. & 15. &c. if not every one , which of them is it ? is any one of all these parties , the whole church of god ? who dare say so ? why should i refuse communion with any one of these , while i scruple not communion with all the rest . or if it must be but with one sort , how shall i know which of them it must be ? i know some men judge of others by their own opinions and self interest : but is that indeed the christian rule ? some of the episcopal way are angry with me for including the independents ; when i doubt not but the far greater part of them are the sincere servants of christ : and since their synods late moderation , i know not many churches in the world , besides the waldenses of the bohemian , polonian and hungarian government , who are neerer to my own judgement , in order and discipline than those in new england are , and none that for piety i prefer before them . some are angry with me for taking in the anabaptists : when it is not such as the munster anabaptists that we have to do with , but godly men , that differ from us in a point so difficult , that many of the papists and prelatists have maintained , that it is not determined in scripture , but dependeth on the tradition of the church . i am not of their mind , and i have given them my reasons in my book for infant baptism : but having had more invitation to study the point throughly , and treat of it largely , than most of those that are offended herein , let them give me leave to say , that i know it to be a very difficult point ; and i know as good and sober men of that mind , as of theirs that are most against them ; and i know that in the dayes of tertullian , nazianzene , augustine , men had liberty to be baptized , or to bring their children , when and at what age they pleased , and none were forced to go against their consciences : and i know not that our rule or religion is changed , or that we are grown any wiser or better than they . i once motioned terms of concord to the anabaptists , and was in as hopeful a way for peace with them , as with most others , till — some are offended that i put in the arminians ; when i am confident that there is not one of many hundreds , who● are against communion with them that know what arminianisme is , and truly understand the difference . and the same men refuse not communion with those anabaptists who are arminians . and it hath been the work of not only mr. dury , but many other excellent men , for many years , to reconcile the lutherans with the calvinists ! and it hath justly been thought a blessed work to draw them to communion with each other ! and yet the lutherans are not only of most of the arminan opinions , but also have superintendents , liturgies , ceremonies , exorcisme , church-images , &c. when so much labour hath been bestowed in this work , and so many excellent treatises written for it , by pious dury , junius , paraeus , calixtus , ludov. crocius , joh. bergius , conrad . bergius , hattonus , amyraldus , hall , davenant , morton , &c. when all sober protestants have prayed for their success , or approved this design , are we now come to that pass , that those that seem the zealousest for the church and mutuall love , shall think it to be a sin , either to hold communion with the lutherans , or to write for it ? but the great offence is that i put in the episcopal , as fit for our communion ; which i suppose is principally because of their manner of worship , in which we must have communion with them . which foreseeing , i answered more objections against this than against the rest ; which hath occasioned some falsly to affirm , that i write only to draw men to communion with the church of england . i will therefore here proceed to some further expostulations of this point . 3. is there ever a word in all my book , perswading you to communion with a diocesan church , as such ? 4. is there one word in it for your communion with a national church , that hath one political spiritual constitutive head under iesus christ ; ( though the kings supremacie none of us question ) do i once meddle with any such thing ? 5. is there a word to perswade you to communion with persecutors ? though i am forced to displease you by answering that objection , and telling you that we should be impartial , and remember what most parties or many have done to others ; which you were not able it seems , to bear , though it was plainly necessary to the due resolution of the case in question , whether any persecutors may be communicated with ? 6. is there one word to perswade you that every parish is a true church , and fit to be communicated with ? if none of all this be there , i hope your patience is not very hard put to it , if i do but intreat you to repent ▪ if you have said that of it which is untrue , whoever told you so , or at least , not to proceed in untruths when you are so often warned of them . 7. do you think that it was done like tender conscienced christians , for so many to say , that i write against your meetings , yea that i conformed my self ? and this before ever they saw my book , or ever spake with man that saw it ? and that men dare yet continue such sayings while the book is visible to prove them false ? and revile against it when they confess that they never read it ? is this the fruit of the spirit of christ ? but give me leave after these expostulations , to come a little nearer to your objection , and to tell you openly where we differ . 1. you would have me speak for love and unity among the nonconformists : ( and i know no man that hath done it more frequently and more openly than i have done ; having these 24 years been offering or publishing terms of peace . ) but god forbid that ever i should be of their opinion ( if there be any such ) who think that our union must be only with a party , and not with the whole church of christ ; or that we must love none , or seek peace with none but th●se , that are in such points of our own opinion ? i am united first to christ and the universal church , and consequently to all the parts as such ; though in divers degrees as they differ themselves in their conformity to christ. 2. i beseech you endure me with patience to tell you , that i never took either the non-conformists alone , or the conformists to be the whole church of christ , or to be his only people in this land : nor the only faithful ministers of the gospel . b●ethren , let not wrath and the faults of some , deceive us to become injurious to others ; or to deny them love and iustice , because that many of their opinion are bad . where in all the world , do you know a kingdom , where the greater part are not too bad , and where those that are of the rulers religion , be it never so right , do not comply with it to serve their flesh ? the low countries have no bishops nor ceremonies , nor no such liturgie as most are offended at with us , but are under the presbyterian government : and yet what the comm●n sort are there , and in other such countries , i need not tell you . forgive me for telling you , that if you know no godly persons ( ministers or others ) of the episcopal way , i do , and long have done : and as my acquaintance increaseth i know more and more . you that take me to be so bad , as the antidote describeth me , will think it no great commendation to them , that i profess to know those of them , whom i take to be much better than my self : therefore i will say a greater word , that i know those of them whom i think as godly and humble ministers , as most of the nonconformists whom i know . i doubt not but there are many hundred parish ministers , who are no persecutors , nor ever consented to persecution ! who preach holily , and live holily , though i could wish that they were more . and what reason have you to charge any other mens sins on them ? i am not ignorant what may be said to make them consequentially partakers . but i must say this in answer to all ; that if god will charge undiscerned consequences upon them and us , there will none of us all be found meet for church communion , or for heaven . i am judged by your selves to be too censorious of you , and too sharp in telling you of that which i doubt not to be your sin : why then are you so offended with me for being no more censorious and sharp towards others ? was i ever thought to be kinder to them than to you ? is not every man naturally most favourable to those of his own opinion ? is it conformity or non-conformity which i have most defended ? is it as a conformist or a nonconformist that i have been judged and used these 33. years ? it is they that have lately written reproachfully against me : it is they that have — i need name no more . but for the non-conformists i must bear witness of their kindness to me , that they never rejected me , never forbad me to preach ( but one sermon , ) nor , ( except particular angry parties whom i wrote against , ) they never denyed me their good word . what then can you think should draw me to be too sharp against them , and too favourable to the other ? i look for no worldly advantage or benefit from them . surely be that is apt to be too sharp , is liker to be so against dissenters from whom he suffereth , than against those that have ever been his friends ? but truth is truth , and the wisdom from above is without partiality and without hypocrisie . do but mark how both parties justifie me , while both condemn me , ( though i am too conscious of my faultiness to justifie my self ) the one side think that i am not half sharp enough against the anabaptists , s●p●ratists and independents : and you that i now write to , think that i am not half sharp enough against the conformists : so that one side doth not only justifie me from the charge of c●ns●●iousness or sharpness against the other , but blame me for the contrary , and are angry with me that i am no sharper . but gods judgement of us all is right , and his seal is sure , the lord knoweth who are his whoever shall deny it . god will not judge of upright christians as they judge of themselves , when they unjustly accuse themselves ; much less according to the judgement of their adversaries . brethren , i think verily that i have as much to say against conformity , as it is required of us ministers , as most of you that are most angry have : and yet i tell you again , that i believe there are many hundred godly ministers in the parish churches of england , and that their churches are true churches , and that i think not my self worthy to be compared with mr. bolton , whately , fenner , dr. preston , sibbes , white , field , u●her , jewel , and abundance other old conformists : and you might forgive me , if i compare them with your selves , and if i again profess to you , that if they were all alive , and used now the same liturgy and ceremonies as they did then , i could not find in my bea rt to think their communion in prayer and sacrament to be unlawful , nor to censure that man as injurious to the church , who should write to perswade others not to separate from them on that supposition . i am sure the assembly of divines that sate heretofore at westminster , were so conformable when they went thither , that i never heard of five non-conformists among them , besides the five dissenting brethren : their judgement was ( as mr. sprints ) that conf●rmity was lawful in case of necessity , rather than to be deprived of liberty to preach the gospel ; but that it was a burden which they should cast off as soon as they had liberty so to do : and i knew some who urged them to declare their repentance for their former conformity , and to have confessed it to have been their sin . but i never heard of any considerable number of them that ever did it , or that changed their minds : and though ministerial conformity ( as to engagements ) is now much altered , many of them that are yet living do again conf●rm . and though i then was not , nor yet am of their mind my self , yet i would not shun communion with the reverend members of that assembly ( twisse , gat●ker , whittaker , and the rest ) if again they wer●●sers of the liturgie among us . 3. but what if in all this i be mistaken , and if communion in the liturgie prove unlawful ? should you be so impatient as not to bear with one that in such an opinion differeth from you ? as i write for my opinion , so do you for yours ? and why should not you bear with my dissent , as well as i do with yours ? my judgement commanded me , first to exhort all sober christians , to draw neerer , and to lay by those principles , which drive them from each other as not to be communicated with : and secondly , where that cannot be obtained , to bear with one another in our several assemblies or churches , and to manage them with love and peace . this was my ex●●rtation , and the time once was ( even when the five dissenting brethren pleaded their cause with the assembly at westminster , ) that this motion would have been accepted , or at least not judged so great an injury as now it is . o brethren , do not expose your selves and cause , so much to the censure of impartial men , and of posterity , as to let them know that you are grown so high , or that in the very day of our humiliation these terms seem so injurious to you , as these exceptions intimate . mr. nye and mr. tho. good win were so friendly with dr. pr●ston , as to publish his works when he was dead . and i verily think if you had been acquainted with such conformists heretofore , as he was , and dr. stoughton , and dr. taylor , and mr. downam , and those forenamed , and abundance more , you could not choose but have thought them both tolerable and lovely , if you had not thought it lawful to communicate with them : much more you should have endured such as the non-conformists of that age , who used parish communion , and pleaded for it against the separatists , in far sharper language than ever i used to you ( as their books against johnson and cann and brown and ainsworth do yet visibly declare . ) if you think their reasons and mine for the lawfulness of parish communion to be insufficient , so do i think of yours against it . i have read divers that charge the liturgie with idolatry . did i ever lay so heavy a charge on you ? did i ever say that it is unlawful to have communion with you , as you say it is to have communion with others ? why then should you not bear with lesser contradiction , when others must bear with far greater from you ? will you proclaim your selves to be the more impatient ? you will then make men think that you are the most guilty . you say of such men as those before named [ your worship is idolatry , and it is unlawful for any christian to hold communion with you in it , and all that are present and joyn with you are guilty of the idolatry ] i do but say , that [ you make the case more odious than it is , and injure others by this charge ] what a world are we come to ▪ when those that you count unworthy of your communion , must not take your charge of idolatry as too sharp , and yet you that should be most patient , take it for a heynous crime and injury , to be told that you wrong them , and that you judge too hardly of them ? and that their communion is not unlawful ! nay , is it seemly for th●se men that have said and done so much , ( i say , so much , ) for liberty of conscience , and would never consent to the westminster assembly to declare against it , even as to those parties , whom you counted very erroneous your selves , to be yet so impatient of our liberty to tell the church our judgement about the lawfulness of other mens communion ? is it meet for them who are offended with those that silence us and restrain us of our liberty , to be so tender , as to shew by such language as this excepter useth , and by such unjust fames as some others have dispersed , how little themselves can bear dissenters ? i know that displeasure and impatience in the divers parties , is expressed different wayes ; but o that yet you would consider , how near of kin the principles are , and how much defect of love and patience there is in you as well as others . 4. and i intreat you to mark but what your own objection intimateth : you could endure it if i had only pleaded for peace and concord among the non-conformists : but doth not this intimate , that peace and concord in it self is desirable , among all those that should agree and be united ? why , i am as well able to prove that all true christians should have peace and love and concord for the strength of the universal church , as any of you all are able to prove , that any one party should have concord in it self . the episcopal part would have all possible concord among those that are episcopal ; and the presbyterians among presbyterians , and the independents among independents , and the anabaptists among anabaptists ; no party is for divisions among themselves , till the particular temptation doth prevail . and yet i am not pardonable for motioning , that all sober christians , as christians , may have all possible love , peace and concord among themselves . brethren , i am sure that christs body is but one : i do not despise all those words of christ and the spirit which i cited in my book : i know that the diversity of knowledge and gifts among true christians , should not make diversities of churches , 1 cor. 12. when i know this , and cannot choose but know it , why should any be angry with me for knowing it ? i know that the godly conformists and non-conformists in england should be united , as well as each party among themselves ; i know that our division gratifieth the papists , and greatly hazardeth the protestant religion , and that more than most of you seem to believe or to regard ; i know that our division advantageth profaneness , and greatly hindereth the success of ministers on both sides : i know that it greatly pleaseth satan , and buildeth up his kingdom , and weakneth the kingdom of our lord : his own mouth hath told us so : and shall i not believe him ? as in our worcestershire agreement heretofore , we proceeded on terms which excluded not the episcopal ; so in our desires and terms of concord , we must still go the same way , and shut out none from our love and communion , whom christ receiveth and would have us receive . if they shut out us , that is not our sin but theirs . the hurt and loss is farr more to the excluder than the excluded ; to him that loseth his charity , than to him that loseth but communion with others . and i know that as none shall take out of christs hands , those that are given him by the father , and he himself will in no wise cast them out ; so he will at last give no more thanks either to diotrephes or to any separating parties , that would rob him of his own , and say that his children are not his children , and that his churches are not his churches , and that his worship is not his worship , but idolatry , than you will give to him that will turn out your children and servants , and take away your goods and lands , and say that they are not yours . brethren , it grieveth me to the heart , that neither party conformable or non-conformable is more sensible of the sin and danger of our distance . ( though i know that in both parties there are many wise and holy persons , who i suppose lament it more than i do . ) it layeth my soul in daily lamentations , to see how we run further and further from each other ; to the apparent danger of the protestant cause , and of the kingdoms welfare , and of all the hopes of our posterity ; and that in stead of repenting of those sins which every party is guilty of ▪ and taking warning by our former experiences , or by the dreadful judgements of god upon us all , that yet we are daily losing the little love that is left , and still flying further into more and more exasperations and distast ; as if all the church and kingdoms hopes consisted in overcoming one another . when our long experience telleth us , that subduing those that must still be members , is no cure of a divided body ; and that treading men down doth but alienate them the more . and i know that it is concord and union upon such terms in which we are all agreed , that must be our cure , if ever we be cured . and that no covenant nor partial interest , can possibly justifie us , if we will stablish our union on such terms , as shall either exclude such on one side as jewel , grindal , downam , hall and other such bishops , or such on the other side as ames , hildersham , cartwright , bayne , egerton , and other such worthy persons that were nonconformists : for my part , my terms should neither exclude , episcopal , independent , nor anabaptist . but one that will separate and exclude himself , or one that will tyraniz● and exclude all others , we cannot any otherwise have concord and communion with , than distantly by christian principles and patience . but at long running they shall be all convinced , that the cure of the church is not by meer conquest or contempt of others ; nor by the union and concord of some parties only , but of the whole ; and that the sound and sober conformists and non-conformists , are the parts in england , that must be united ; and that neither violence nor unjust separating censures are the healing way ; and that which party soever it be that contriveth and endeavoureth a union , by the extirpation and ruine of the other part , is schismatical , and taketh the way of desolation ; and that it is the devil , the infidels , and the papists , that will be the gainers by our continued divisions . and therefore though i know not the man alive , in england who hath more fair pretence , from the ungrateful usage of the differing partie● , to desist from any more such conciliatory attempts , yet , let my hopes be never so low , seeing it is a thing that must be done , or we are undone , i will imitate honest mr. dury , and choose rather to wast my daies in vain attempts for peace , than to go quarrelling and contending to the grave , as i have seen too many others do . and if both parties in this exasperated age , should never so much revile and s●ander me , ( though a surviving name be little of my interest ) i make no doubt but our posterity , will be constrained by experience , to think better of peace-makers than of contenders . the names of melanchthon , bucer , calixtus , bergius , burroughs , hall , davenant , &c. are far more grateful and honourable to after times , than the name of flacius ( though an excellent learned man ) or of schlusselburgius , calovius , or any of our fiery contenders or destroyers . to all this i add , that even the separated churches themselves do find a necessity of union and concord for their preservation . division else will pursue the several pieces , and the same principles which i write-against , if they go along with them , will crumble them all to dust . the separated churches in holland ( of the english ) fully proved this . even those members in new-england , which mr. norton sadly told mr. ash and me , did withdraw and gather themselves to an unlearned pastor , and would not be intreated by magistrates or ministers , yet when they were separated , would fain keep concord among themselves . and if half of that separated body , should again have separated from the rest , that fragment would fain keep themselves in unity . and still nature teacheth them to feel that their unity is their strength and life , and that their division is their dissolution . 5. and i must needs tell the world , that though i conform not , it is greater things than the matters of conformity , which are the chief parts of my religion ; and therefore it is not non-conformity that we must all unite in , so much as christianity , and soundness in the faith. and i doubt not but the independents who offer to subscribe to the doctrine of the church of england , will say that they differ far more from the quakers , and seekers , and familists , than they do from the conformists . and so do i , though i would have love and gentleness exercised to them all . 6. and if the present conformable ministry were more to be blamed than they are , yet they may learn and profit while they teach . many of them are young , coming lately from the university ; and may yet grow up to ability and piety , and greater usefulness in the church : and many of them are prejudiced against their brethren , for want of acquaintance : and a christian prudent loving familiarity and conversation with them , may make them in time become more serviceable to the truth , than we are : whereas a continued distance , estrangedness , and censorious aversation , will feed their mistakes and uncharitable censure● of us , yea and their sharp severities against us , and will keep up a heart-war , and a church-war in the land . and alas who knoweth either when or how , or in whose calamity it will end. for he that puts on his armour should not boast as he that puts it off . i do therefore conclude with this repeated profession , that it is the conformists and the non-conformists that constitute the english protestant body ; and it is the conformists and non-conformists that must at last , ( when they are wearied with tearing and opposing one another ) be brought together , and the faithful of both partyes must build up the church in love and peace . and therefore the interest of the protestant religion , must be much kept up by the means of the parish ministers , and by the doctrine and worship there performed ▪ and not by the non conformists alone . and they that think and endeavour that which is contrary to this ( of which side soever ) shall have the hearty thanks and concurrence of the papists . him therefore that is weak in the faith receive ye , but not to doubtful disputations . let not him that eateth despise him that cateth not . and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth : for god hath received him . who art thou that judgest another mans servant ? — the kingdom of god is not meat and drink , but righteousness , and peace , and joy in the holy-ghost : for he that in these things serveth christ , is acceptable to god , and approved of men . let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace and the things wherewith one may edifie another . and blessed are the peace-makers , for they shall be called the children of god. the general part or introduction to the defence of my cure of church-divisions . being a narrative of those late actions which have occasioned the offence of men on both extreams ; with the true reasons of them , and of these writings , which some account unseasonable : with the true stating of the case of that separation , which my opposed treatise medleth with ; and an answer to several great objections . printed in the year . 1671. i. the general part , or introduction . cap. 1. the narrative of those late actions , which have occasioned mens displeasure against me on both sides : with the reasons of them , and of my writing , which i am now defending . the number of books written against me is so great , that if i should not be very suspicious of my self , lest i had wronged the truth , and the church of god , and given men just occasion of all this obloquy , i should be very defective in humility , and in that care , which i am obliged to for the avoiding of such injuries . and i find upon examination that if i could have let all sides alone , and judged it consistent with my duty to be silent while the envious man sowed his tares , and not to have contradicted any that i took to be injuring the truth and church , nor to have sounded the trumpet against any error which arose before us , i could as easily have escaped their wrath as others . and i find that whereas our differences both in doctrine , and worship , and discipline , have engaged men of several minds in such writings against me . ( some infidels , diverse quakers , papists , antinomians , some arminians , some anti-arminians , anabaptists , separatists , levellers , diocesans , &c. ) what one accuseth me of , another doth not only acquit me of , but ordinarily as sharply accuse me for the contrary , and for going no further from the rest . so that nothing but silence could put by their fiercest accusations , and silence it self will not please the imperious sect , who think me criminal , because i serve them not according to their own desire and way . and silence was not that which i promised god at my ordination , nor is it a doing of that work , to which i was then consecrated and devoted . but because some men speak in a more sanguinary dialect than others , and because the late charges of disloyalty , ought not to be disregarded by a loyal subject , and because for the sakes of their own souls , it hath often made me pitty mr. durel , dr. boreman , and many others like them , who have published ugly falsehoods of me , i once thought to have here exercised so much charity to them , as by a full narrative of all those actions of my life , which concern such matters as they accuse me of , to have rectified all their mistakes at once , and made them understand , what it is , which they wrote of before they understood it : and the rather because this excepter followeth them , in telling me how guilty i was of the wars , and all the effects of them , and also that i wrote a flattering book to richard cromwell . and in this narrative i purposed to confess so much as had any truth in their accusations , and to stop them in their falsifications and calumnies as to the rest . but upon second tho●●●ts , i cast it by , perceiving by too long experience , that they who are engaged against the truth , are unable to bear it , and take all for an unsufferable wrong to them , which detecteth the falsehood of their reports . and when men do ( as mr. hinkley ) importune me to publish the reasons of my non-conformity , when they know that the law forbiddeth it , and there is no expectation of procuring a licence , or when the old stratagem is so visibly used , of drawing us by their challenges into their ambuscad'es ; or when i am eagerly provoked to gape against an oven , while it is red or flaming hot ; if i crave their patience , and exercise my own , till it be grown more cool , before i accept of such a challenge , and suffer them to use their art ( till repentance shall unteach it them ) and to make my name a stepping stone , to those ends which they now aspire after , methinks they should be content , to talk on without a contradiction , and to be free from the light of that truth , which they are not able to endure ; or at least should pardon me , if i imitate my lord , that was silent , even when false accusers sought his defamation and his blood . but , god ●nabling me , i promise them an answer , as soon as they will procure me license and indemnity . in the mean time , i shall now only , 1. tell you why i offended one side , by saying so much against their impositions , 2. and why i have since offended the other , yea both sides , by my late book called , the cure of church-divisions . before the king was restored , being then at london , i was called to preach two publick sermons ; t●● one before the parliament , the day before they voted the kings return ; the other before the lord major and aldermen on a day of thanksgiving for the hopes of his return . in the latter i plainly shewed my sense of the case of the falling party , and the armies actions , and gave as plain a warning to the then rising party , with some prognosticks thereupon . in the former ( the first that ever i preached to a parliament , and he last , ) i spake some words of the facility of concord with the sober godly moderate sort of the episcopal divines , and how quickly arch-bishop usher and i came to an agreement of the termes on which they might unite . when this sermon was printed , this passage caused many moderate episcopal divines to urge me to tell them the terms of that agreement ; and they all professed their great desires and hopes of concord upon such termes ; viz. dr. gulston , dr. allen , dr. bernard , dr. fuller , dr. gauden , and several others . dr. gauden desired a meeting to that end of the several parties , but none came at the day appointed but he and dr. bernard , and dr. manton and i ; where i spake these words , which he printed without the limitation annexed , which i set right in my next printed book , viz. that i found ( then ) little or nothing in the doctrinal part of the common prayer book , which was not sound , having but as favourable an exposition as good mens writings usually mnst have . he left out [ the doctrinal part ] at last when the earle of o●ery perswaded me to be his majesties chaplain in ordinary , and was present when the earl of manchester gave me ( and mr. ash ) an oath of fidelity , it being he that first brought me acquainted with bishop usher ; the mention of the same business fell in : whereupon we shortly after were told by the lord chamberlain , that it was his majesties pleasure , that there should be a treaty for union between the episcopal party and the presbyterians : and dr. reignolds , mr. calamy , mr. ash and my self being first employed , when we had made some entrance , we desired that some might be chosen by the ministers throughout the land , to signifie their sense , because we could speak in the name and sense of none but our selves ; but his majesty not consenting to that , we desired an addition of many brethren at hand , which was granted ; and the liberty for all ministers that would to meet with us , for consultation , as many did at sion-colledge and elsewhere . in this treaty we all professed our judgements for the lawfulness of a liturgie ; and desired the reformation of that which we had , with the addition of new forms in scripture phrase , fitted to the several offices , with liberty to the ministers to use this or that . whereupon we drew up such a liturgie our selves , which though it fell to my share , yet the rest of our brethren examined and approved of it , saving that dr. reignolds disliked the displeasing the bishops by such large additions , and a liturgie seeming entire of it self , instead of some additional prayers to theirs . how many weeks we were employed from first to last , in these debates , how fully and freely we took that opportunity to plead for reformation , and against unnecessary impositions , whilest the men that now quarrel with us said nothing that we know of : how hard a province fell to my own lot , as to the offending of the bishops , under whose hot displeasure i thereby ( in obedience to my conscience ) did cast my self , our writings ( which somebody hath published for the greater part of them ) shew ; and our savoy conference , and my prohibition to preach in worcester diocess shortly after ( before other ministers were silenced ) and the published writings against me , did all sufficiently acquaint the world : and the particulars of this business i now pass by . only i think meet to make this twofold profession , to the two parties on the extreams ; 1. that the true reason why i wrote and spake so much , so long , and so vehemently , had it been possible to have prevented many impositions , was principally because i undoubtedly foresaw how great a number of faithful worthy ministers would else be silenced by them ; and how ill the church could spare those ministers , while there are so many hundred thousands of ignorant and ungodly people in the land ; and what sort of ministers in too many places must unavoidably succeed them , unless the church doors should be shut up ? and i foresaw how the people under such ministers would be affected to religion , and to the bishops , and ministry ? and i foresaw what multitudes of religious persons would take the things imposed as unlawful , and would separate from communion with the publick churches ; and would worship god in private meetings with the silenced ministers . i foresaw how many ministers and people that did conform with a grudging conscience , would do more at last to undermine the impositions , than the non-conformists . i foresaw easily what jealousies ; displeasure , severities , imprisonments , &c. would follow the private preaching of the silenced ministers , and the private meetings of the people : and i knew well that other ministers as well as i , would judge it no better than perfidious sacriledge , to forsake the holy calling to which they were consecrated and devoted , and to desert so many thousand needy souls : but , above all , i foresaw , how certainly and sadly the churches divisions would be hereby increased , and the love of each party to the other would be abated , if not destroyed : how hard it was for one side to love and honour the non-conformists , that accounted them persecutors and unconscionable men : and how hard it was for the other side to love and honour those that they suffered by : and how little reproaches , fines , and imprisonments , do use to increase mens love to others . i ●or●knew that one side would call the other rebellious schismatical phanaticks ; and the other side were like enough to account them , perjured perfidious persecutors ; and that in the midst of such thoughts , such words , such usage , love was no more like to prosper , than fire in the sea . and i knew that whatever zeal be pretended for obedience and order on one side , or for purity of worship on the other , when love dieth , religion dieth ; and they that are destroyers of love , are destroyers of the church and of christianity , and of the souls of men : and to increase love is to save s●i●ls ▪ and i foresaw that the further they go in this way ; the further they will go from god and godliness ▪ from peace and safety , and that it will be the longer the worse , till they retire : for one hard usage on one side , and hard censure on the other side , after another , will by degrees raise men to the height of bitterness , and make them think , that their interest con●isteth in the hurt and ruine of each other . also i foresaw that while we worried , and weakned one another , as all sects would grow under the discontents of one party , so the papists were like to be the principal gainers ; and they would be ready to offer their service to strengthen one of the parties against the other ; and would be glad to take up the reproaches against the most religious people , that were by angry adversaries brought unto their hands ; and that when we had made our selves a common scorn by our manifold divisions , and by our biting and devouring one another , they would plead this as our shame , to draw people to themselves , as the only stable and consistent church ; and would make us giddy that we might rest on them as our supporters ; and when they saw us weak enough , would be ready to devour us all . and i easily foresaw how calamitous a thing it would be to the kingdom , to have most towns and parishes set all together by the ears , and for the neighbours to be as gu●lphes and gibellines , every man employed in censuring and reproaching others , instead of living together in neighbourly and christian love. and i foresaw what an injury this would be to the king , to have the suffering party under these temptations , and wise men made mad , and his people weakned by such sad divisions ; whereby their cheerfulness in his love and service would be abated , and forreign enemies would be encouraged to attempts against our peace and safety , and if ever they should invade us , it maketh me tremble to think how our divisions would debilitate us , and hazard all our common security and hopes . yea , how uncomfortable a thing it must needs be to the king , to rule such a divided people , that live in a heart-war among themselves , in comparison of ruling a loving , and concordant sort of men . in a word , i knew that a house or kingdom divided against it self would not stand : and though i could not make the bishops believe me , i knew that divisions , lamentable divisions ; were like to be the consequent , of the things which then i so importunately petitioned and intreated them to forbear : i kn●w it , for i could not choose but kn●w it . and for these reasons i wrote , i pleaded , i earnestly contended with them as i did , while there appeared any hope , as being loth to have seen the things which i have already seen , and god knoweth to how much worse we are going , if grace and wisdom yet prevent it not . and though i exasperated the sore which i would have cured , and have ever since my self lain under their displeasure , yet i have peace in the testimony of my conscience , that i did my best , to have prevented our miseries while i had time . 2. and i would give notice to the other party , that whilst i pleaded for their liberty , and against the imposing of unnecessary things , i took not all the things in question for unlawful to be done , which i thought unlawful to be made necessary to our communion or ministration . all knew that my judgement ever was for the lawfulness of kneeling at the sacrament ; ( especially since the rubrick is inserted , which disclaimeth both all bread worship and the bodily real presence . ) and we all as is said , thought a liturgie lawful ; and when we wrote our reply to the answer of our exceptions , we said these words ( which may tell you , whether i change my mind , and what was then our common sense ) pag. 3. [ while we took it to be a defective , disorderly and inconvenient mode of worship , it would be our sin to use it of choice , while we may prefer a more convenient way , whatever we ought to do in case of necessity , when we must worship god inconveniently , or not at all . ] and pag. 12 , 13. [ what if it be only proved unlawful for you to impose it , though not for others to joyn with you when you do impose it ? is this no reason 〈◊〉 alter it ? should you not have some care to avoid sin your selves , as well as to preserve others from it ? an inconvenient mode of worship is a sin in the imp●ser , and in the chooser , and voluntary user , that may offer god better , and will not : and yet it may not be only lawful , but a duty to him , that by violence is necessitated to offer up that or none . ] by this you may see what we all thought then of not only hearing , but reading a defective liturgie in such a case . if you say , that this was but my own opinion ; i answer , though as they wrote the particular exceptions without me , so i wrote this defence of them by their appointment , yet it was examined and consented to by the rest , who were not men apt to take things on trust , nor to be imp●sed on by such a one as me . when this treaty was frustrate , and the torrent of displeasure came upon us , ( which reached me with the first ) i saw also that the storm of mens passions and discontents would quickly follow : and therefore according to my own judgement and advice to others , i endeavoured to practise my self ; that is , neither to forsake my calling , or omit any service i could do for the church , nor yet to do it in a turbulent and unpeaceable , or dividing way . for the first , i thought writing was my greatest work , which made me not travail abroad to preach ( which also weakness disabled me from doing ) . but yet i never to my remembrance either forbad any from coming to my house , nor ever invited any to hear me . i had no pastoral charge in london ; nor could i live there with my health : my judgement was , that though so many hundred ministers were silenced , and too many congregations had such , as were to us matter of grief , yet the interest of the christian protestant religion in england , must be much kept up , by keeping up as much of truth , piety and reputation as was possible in the parish churches . therefore i never laboured or disputed to make any minister a non-conformist , unless he came to me , and by desiring my judgement , made it my duty ( though i oft openly professed , that if i conformed my self to what is required of a minister , i should take it to be no little or single sin ) i remembred the saying of mr. dod , who thanked god for the churches sake , that some conformed , and for the truths sake , that some conformed not . i resolved that if i lived where was an intolerable minister , i would not hear him , nor come near him , so as to encourage him in his sinful undertaking of that sacred office : but if i lived under an able , worthy , or tolerable man , i would joyn with him in publick ( constantly if i had not caeteris paribus the liberty of better , and sometimes if i had ) and i would help him by my private labours as well as i could , and live with him in unity and peace . accordingly i constantly joyned in the publick prayers and hearing at the parish church where i lived ( having no better that i could go to ) and never preached to my family , but between the times of publick worship ; and the people that came in to me , wen● with me to the publick worship . in all this time many persons importuned me to indeavour that all non-conformists might agree in one , by what measures to walk as to their communion with the parish churches , and such other things , ( for many reasons : and i ever shanned all such attempts ; 1. because it is the way that we have blamed so much in others , to make narrow measures for other mens practices , and unnecessary terms of brotherly concord : we must unite as christians in necessary things ; and if one man can , e. g. kneel at the sacrament and another cannot , if one can joyn in common-prayer , and another cannot ; yea , if one can conform to the liturgie and ceremonies , and another cannot , it must not break our unity or peace . 2. because that non-conformists are not all of the same judgement in every particular among themselves : and how can they then agree upon the same practice in every point ? if they should ; either the most scrupulous must come up to them that think that lawful which they scruple , or else the later must come to the former : if they yield that think the things unlawful , and do as the others do , they shall sin : and then they might as well conform ? and if they that hold more things to be lawful must agree in practice with them that hold the fewest lawful , than such must 1. forsake their own understandings , and live in many sins ; and 2. they must be alwayes at an uncertainty in their practice , because some may yet arise , that may count more things unlawful ; and so the whole party may change their practice every year , as new scruples or errors arise in any ; 3. and so the most scrupulous though the most erroneous , must be the standard and rule of all the rest . 4. and so we should tempt others still to new scruples , and to make more and more things sinful , that so they might obtain the rule of all . i ever thought therefore that without any combinations , our way is , every man to know the truth as well as he can , and practice accordingly ; and live in love and peace with those that differ from him in tollerable things . and thus i hope most non-conformable ministers do . in the year 1663 divers learned and reverend non-conformists of london met to consider how far it was their duty , or lawful to communicate with the parish churches where they lived in the liturgie and sacrament : and we agreed the next day to bring in our several judgements in writing with our reasons . accordingly i brought in mine , in which i proved four propositions , 1. that it is lawful to use a form of prayer : 2. that it is lawful to joyn with some parish churches in the use of the liturgie . 3. that it is lawful to joyn with some parish churches in the lords supper . 4. that it is to some a duty to joyn with some parish churches three times a year in the lords supper . they being long , i read over to them the last only , which being proved ( by 20. reasons ) included all the rest . upon consideration whereof , no one of the brethren seemed to dissent , but to take the reasons to be valid ; save only that one objection stopt them all , to which i also yielded , and we concluded at the present to forbear sacramental communion with the parishes : and that was , because it was a time when great severities were threatned against those that could not so far conform ; and most of the independents and some others were against it ; and our brethren verily believed that if we should then communicate , those that could not yield so far , would be the sharplier used , because they yielded not as far as we . i yielded to them readily , that god will have mercy and not sacrifice , and even gods worship otherwise due , as prayer , or preaching , or sabbath-keeping may be omitted for an act of mercy , even to pull an oxe or ass out of a pitt . and therefore pro tempore i would forbear that sacrament , which was like to cause the imprisonment or undoing of my neighbour . in mentioning this , these three things are my end . 1. to tell the world the judgement of these ministers ; who are misjudged by their actual forbearance of publick communion , that they take it for a thing unlawful : whereas they are thus accidentally hindered from it ( besides many other accidents not here to be mentioned , this before named is one . ) 2. to shew the prelates who and what it is that hath hindered mens nearer communion with them ; and that while rigor and severity is trusted to as the only means to further it , it proveth the principal means of hindering it . 3. to shew the independents , that we have been so far from dealing hardly or uncharitably with them , that we have forborn that communion , which else our own judgements would have charged on us as our duty , either only , or chiefly for fear of being the least occasion accidentally of their sufferings : and if yet they are impatient with us for obeying our consciences , who can help it what the rest did after this consultation in their practices , i enquired not : but for my own part on the same argument i forbore communion with the parish churches in the sacrament a long time , till at last i saw that the reason seemed to me to cease , and i durst not for i knew not what , go against my judgement : but lest it might possibly have any such hurtful consequents , i chose a very private country parish to communicate with , where i sometime sojourned , and where there was neither that , nor any other reason to hinder me : but yet after many years further observation , lest men that know not of my practice , should be scandalized or insnared , to think that i forbore parish communion as unlawful , and so to do the like themselves , i once chose an easter day to communicate in a very populous church in london , purposely that it might be the further known : but having some reasons to forbear at the parish where i lived most constantly , it so far provoked the parson that — i may suppose no independent suffered so much through my communicating , as i have done by forbearing for their sakes . at last in the year 1667. observing how mens minds grew every day more and more exasperated by their sufferings , and whither all this tended , and what was like to be the issue , i wrote this book called the cure of church-divisions ; the reasons whereof i am next to give you . but being not used to publish any thing unlicensed , nor thinking it fit to break the law of printing without necessity , nor knowing how to get it printed unlicensed if i would ; i knew that if i put any thing into it very provokingly , it would not be licensed , and would frustrate all the rest . and yet my conscience told me , that it looked so like partiality , to tell one party of their faults , and call them to their duty , and not the other , that i resolved to say as much to the bishops and imposing clergy , as should signifie my judgement plainly to any intelligent man , and tell them what sense i had of narrowing impositions and severities , and what is the way of unity and peace , though not to cloath it in exasperating language : and if they would not not license it all together , i purposed to cast it all aside . and to confess the truth , the deep sense of the sin and infatuation of this age , hath long made me desirous to have written one book , with the title in dying bradfords words , repent o england ; and that in several parts , professing first , my own repentance in several particulars , then calling severally the bishops and conformable clergy , the presbyterians , the independents , and the sectaries , corporations and country to repent . but i knew the bishops would not endure it , and i could not get it licensed or printed , and i had greater things to write , and many wise men whose judgements much rule me , disswaded me and laughed at my weakness , that i should think that such men would regard what i said , or that it would have any better effect than exasperation ! and i long purposed not to speak to one sort , till i might speak to all , to avoid partiality , and evil consequents . but at last considering , that by this rule i might never tell any of their sins , nor preach repentance to them whilst i lived , and that i must not deny my duty and charity to one sort , because another sort will not receive it , and seeing also necessity increase , and having already writen and said so much to the other party , i resolved to imitate those two excellent faithful tractates , viz. 1. mr. m. pool's vox clamantis in deserto in latine , calling the non-conformable ministers to repentance , and mr. lewis stukeley's ( a worthy congregational minister in exeter , and a kinsman of the late general monkes ) enumerating copiously most of the common sins of religious professors , and calling them earnestly and faithfully to repentance , which since the writing of this , i find excellently done in a book called englands danger and only remedy . and therefore i first published some old notes written eleven or twelve years ago called directions for weak christians , and annexed to it the character of a sound christian ; in both which i wrote that which was as like to have exasperated the impatient , as this book is ; and yet i heard of no complaints , and afterward i wrote this which i now defend ; and sent it to the licenser , who upon perusal refused to license it ; and so it lay by , and i purposed to meddle with it no more . but leaving it in the booksellers hands that had offered it to be licensed , after a long time he got it done ; and so unexpectedly it revived . the reasons of my writing it were no fewer than all these following , which i now submit to the judgement of all men truly peaceable and impartial , who value the interest of christianity , and of the universal church above their own . 1. to make up my foregoing directions to weak christians more compleat . having directed them about the private matters of their souls , i intended this as another part , to direct them in order to the churches peace . 2. many good people of tender consciences and weak judgements , desiring my advice about communion in the publick assemblies , i found it meetest to publish this general advice for all , to save me the labour of speaking to particular persons , and to serve those that lived further off . 3. i saw those principles growing up apace , in this time of prevocation , which will certainly increase or continue our divisions , if they continue and increase . i am sure that our wounds are made by wounding principles of doctrine ; and it must be healing doctrines that must heal us : and i know that we cannot be healed , till doctrinal principles be healed . to give way to the prevalency of dividing opinions is to give up our hopes of future unity and peace . and to give up our hopes of unity and peace , is to despair of all true reformation , and happiness of the church on earth . if ever the church be reduced to that concord , strength , and beauty , which all true christians do desire , i am past doubt that it must be by such principles , as i have here laid down . 4. but my grand reason was , that i might serve the church of christ , in the reviving and preservation of christian love. as it was an extraordinary measure of the spirit , which christ made his witness in the gospel church ; so is it as extraordinary a measure of love , which he maketh the new commandment , and the mark of all his true disciples : and whether afflicting on one side , and unmerciful and unjust censures , on the other side , one driving away ; and the other flying away , be either a sign or means of love : and whether taking others to be intolerable in the church , and unworthy of our communion , and separating from , or avoiding the worship where they are present , be likely to kindle love , or to kill it , let any man judge , that hath himself the exercise of reason , and unfeigned love. i know that this is the hour of temptation to the sufferers , to stir up passion and distaste ; and that men have need of more than ordinary grace and watchfulness , and therefore of more than ordinary helps & warning , to preserve due love , and keep out an undue hatred of those by whom they suffer . and how great a temptation also their censures and discontents will prove , to their superiours , and others by whom they suffer , and what unspeakable hurt it may do their s●uls , may easily be conjectured . this sin will prove our greatest loss . 5. hereupon men will be engaged in sinful actions of injustice and uncharitableness against each other . they will be glad to hear , and forward to believe hard and false reports of one another . and too forward to vent such behind one anothers backs : and there is no doubt , but many of each party already think worse of the other commonly , than they are : ( though , alas , we are all too bad , and some egregiously wicked . ) and those persons and churches that would censure a man for curses or oaths , should also censure men for slanders and backbitings . and should i not do my best , to prevent such a course of daily sin ? 6. both violence and separation tend to divide the builders themselves , and keep the ministers in contending with , and preaching and writing against each other , which should be employed in an unanimous opposition to the kingdom of satan in the world , and when all their united wisdom and strength is too little against the common ignorance and prophaneness of the world , their division will disable them , and give sin and satan opportunity to prevail . 7. it may engage them on both sides in the dreadful fin of persecuting each other , one party by the hand , and the other by the tongue , ( even while they cry out of persecution : ) and on both sides to hinder the gospel and mens salvation , on one side by hindering the preachers from their work , and on the other side ( yea on both ) by hindring the success . for what can be more done to make men despise the word , than to teach them to despise or abhor the preacher ? and what more can be done to destroy mens souls , than to harden them against the word ? is there any s●b●r man on either extream , that dare say , i would have none of the people saved , that are not , or will not be the hearers of our party ? if you dare not say , that you would have all the rest to be dam●ed , dare you say , you would not have them be taught by others ? or that you would not have them profit by the word they hear ? if not , how dare you tempt them to vilifie and despise their teachers ? if they will not learn of you , be glad if they will learn of any other , and do not hinder them . 8. by these means they will cherish an hypocritical sort of religiousness in the people , which is more employed in sidings , opinions and censurings of others , than in humble self-judging and in a holy heavenly mind and life . a man need not the spirit of god , and supernatural grace , nor much self-denyal , nor mortification of the flesh , to make him choose a certain fashion of external worship , and think that now he and those that are of that fashion , are the only people , and to reproach all of other fashions , as ungodly , and to think that he is therefore a better christian than the other , because his fashion of outward worship seemeth the better to him . not that any thing in gods worship should be denyed its due regard ; but its pity that by an unproportionable estimation of mens several outward fashions , words and gestures , poor souls should be tempted to deceive themselves , and to forget that he is the best christian that hath most faith , humility , love and heavenliness , which is the true holiness , and beauty of the soul. 9. when men think a lawful communion ( yea , a duty ) to be unlawful ; it will both keep them in the sin of omitting it , and cause them to add their sinful censures of all those that use that communion which they avoid . they do not only think that they are holier , because they hear not , and pray not , and communicate not in the parish churches , but they look down with a supercilious pity upon those that do ? and how many parties have i thus been pitied by ? as i go along the streets , the quakers say , poor man , thou art in darkness . the papists pity me , for not being one of them : the anabaptists pity me , for not being one of them : the separatists pity or disdain me , because i forbear not the worship that they forbear : and this excepter lamenteth my condition as passionately as any . it is not for [ not worshipping with them ] that they censure me ( for i am ready to do it , ) but for worshipping with others , in words which they like not . and whereas holiness was wont to be expressed most by worship actions , now it must be characterized more by negatives , even in external adjuncts . and if he be the best man that avoideth most the communion of others which he taketh to be bad , i have , and have had , neighbours better than you all , that never communicate with any church , nor ever publickly hear , or pray , or worship god at all , because they think all your wayes of worship to be bad . i remember rivet marketh out grotius by this , that while he forsook the protestant churches , and called us to unite with the church of rome ( that is , with the pope ruling not arbitrarily , but by the laws of a general council , not excluding that of trent ) he did actually communicate with none at all . 10. when mens judgements are thus mistaken about church communion , their worship of god will be corrupted : they will in their hearts earnestly desiee that all others may be of their mind , and they will complain to god of that as a sin , which is mens duty : especially among those of their own mind . and this offering up of their mistakes to god , in earnestness , as an acceptable service , is a sad polluting of holy things . so he that is famed to have written this antidote , is said to have made my book which was written for christian love , to be the matter of his publick humiliation . and another of my friends , in dayes of prayer , maketh it his lamentation , [ lord , here are those that are one day here , and another day at common-prayer : ] as if the exercise of knowledge and love , in impartial communion with all christs churches ( not forcing us to sin ) were a sin to be lamented . but i need not go further for instance , than this antidote , where the reverend author taketh it for a service of god , to write against those necessary precepts of love and unity , which he mistakingly opposeth . and so did mr. iohnson and mr. canne , who most confidently presented their writings for separation , to god , as a service which he had commanded them , and would own . 11. this narrow judgement tempteth men on one side , to anathematize all that say , there are any other true churches in england , save of one form and fashion ; and it tempteth others to deny the parish churches , to be at all true churches , and so to narrow the possessions of christ. and hereupon it tempteth them to endeavour to disgrace and dissolve each other . it draweth many to think , that it is the interest of religion now in england , to have the parish churches to be brought low in reputation and deserted , and gods publick worship , which they would have all religious people use , to be only that of tolerated or more private churches . by which they little know what they wi●● against the interest of the christian and pro 〈…〉 nt religion in this land ? nor what hurt they would do , if in this they had their wills . 12. these dividing principles and spirits which i oppose , will on one side give shelter to all the prophane malignant minds , that itch to be afflicting others , that fear god more than they : and on the other side , it will give shelter to all kind of heresies and sects ; of which experience is too full a proof . 13. yea , before our eyes , the most pernicious heresies , even those of quakers , are still not only continued , but increase . and we see men that to day condemn communion with the parish churches , and then with the presbyterians ; do shortly fly from communion with the independents too . and mens passions in sufferings pervert their judgements ; and frequently men are overcome by tryal , when they think they are most constant and have overcome . it s commonly known how many of late are turned quakers ; and what considerable persons lately in prison , fell to that unhappy heresie . yet they that by a prison lost their religion , no doubt thought themselves more honourable by their sufferings , than those that go to common-prayer . and shall we stand by and see this work go on , and neither lament their sin , that drive men to this , nor warn them of the passions and principles that lead to it . 14. separation will ruine the separated churches themselves at last , ( by separation i mean the same thing that the old non-conformists wrote against by that name ) it will admit of no consistency . parties will arise in the separated churches , and separate again from them , till they are dissolved . i beseech my deer brethren that are otherwise minded to open their eyes so far as to regard experience . brethren , what now comparatively are all the separated churches or parties upon earth ? would you have all christs churches , and all the interest of the christian religion to be as short lived , and to stand upon no more certain terms than they do ? how few separated churches do now exist , that were in being an hundred years ago ? can you name any ? and would you have had all the churches of christ on earth , to be dissolved , when they were dissolved ? or do you think that all were dissolved with them ? this would make us all seekers indeed . 15. separating and narrow principles befriend not godliness , as they pretend to do , but lamentably undermine it ? if it were but by driving off and disaffecting the lower sort of christians , whose communion you reject . the case of three or four churches in new-england grieve my heart : but the case of the summer islands as related to me by mr. vaughan , a worthy minister lately discouraged and come from thence , would make a christian heart to bleed ; to hear how strict and regular and hopeful that plantation once was ? and how one godly mininister by separation , selecting a few to be his church , and rejecting all the rest from the sacrament , the rejected party are grown to doleful estrangedness from religion , and the selected party much turned quakers , and between both , how wofull are the fruits . but the case of england , scotland , and ireland ( which i foretold in my book of infant baptisme ) is yet a more lamentable proof , what separation hath done against religion , so full a proof , that it is my wonder that any good man can overlook it . 16. yea it tendeth to make religiousness contemptible , and the professors of it , a common scorn , when we are perceived to place it in unwarrantable separations , and singularities , and when we make men think that the greatest difference between those that they call precise , or religious , and others , is but this , that one of them prayeth without book , and the other by the book ; that one of them will not joyn with those that use the liturgie , and the other will. if we let men see that in indifferent things we are indifferent , and that lesser evils we avoid as lesser , and greater evils , as greater , and that the great difference between us and the ungodly , is in our seriousness in our christian profession , and in our heavenlyness , and true obedience to christ , it would much convince them of their misery , and honour religion in the world : but when they perceive that the greatest contention which our houses and our streets do ring of , is whether we shall hear a man that conformeth or not ? or whether we shall pray with them that use the liturgie ? or whether we may sometimes communicate with a parish church or not ? this turneth the thoughts of the careless and carnal , the worldling and the sensualist , from the necessary condemning of himself for his ungodliness , and sets him on thinking , that these stricter people do differ from him in things of no importance , and that they are but an erroneous self conceited sort of persons , and that he is much the wiser man. thousands in england are hardened into a neglect of godliness , to our suffering and the apparent danger of their own damnation , by occasion of the unwarrantable singularities , and the scandalous sins , especially of those professors , that have been most addicted to sinful separations . 17. i am not causelesly afraid lest , if we suffer the principles and practices which i write against , to proceed without our contradiction , popery will get by it , so great advantage , as may hazzard us all , and we may lose that which the several parties do contend about . three waies especially popery will grow out of our divisions . 1. by the odium and scorn of our disagreements , inconsistency , and multiplied sects ; they will perswade people that we must either come for unity to them , or else all run mad , and crumble into dust and individuals . thousands have been drawn to popery or confirmed in it by this argument already : and i am perswaded that all the arguments else in bellarmine and all other books that ever were written , have not done so much to make papists in england , as the multitude of sects among our selves . yea some professors of religious strictness , of great esteem for godliness , have turned papists themselves , when they were giddy and wearied with turnings ; and when they had run from sect to sect , and found no consistency in any . for when they see so many , they say , how can i tell that this or that is in the right , rather than the other ? this it is that they ring continually in our ears . which of all these sects is in the right ? and what assurance have they of it more than all the rest that are as confident ? and how small a church doth any one sect make ? and ●f h●w late original ( for the most . ) but the poor deluded souls consider not , that in going to the papists , they go but to another sect that is worse than any of the rest ; and though greater , yet not past the third part of the christians in the world : and that christianity is but one : and that the way to rest , is to unite upon the common terms of simple christianity . 2. and who knoweth not how fair a game the papists have to play by the means of our divisions ? methinks i hear them hissing on each party , and saying to one side , lay more upon them , and and abate them nothing ? and to the other , stand it out and yield to nothing ? and who is so blind then as not to see their double game and hopes . viz. that either our divisions and alienations , will carry men to such distances and practices , as shall make us accounted seditious , rebellious , and dangerous to the publick peace , and so they may pass for better subjects than we ; or else that when so many parties under sufferings are constrained to beg and wait for liberty , the papists may not be shut out alone , but have toleration with the rest . and shall they use our hands to do their works , and pull their freedom out of the fire ? we have already unspeakably served them , both in this , and in abating the odium of the gun powder plot , and their other treasons , insurrections , and spanish invasion ( of which read thuanus himself that openeth all the mystery . ) 3. and it is not the least of our danger ( nor which doth least affect me ) lest by our follies , extremities and rigors , we should so exasperate the common people , as to make them readier to joyn with the papists , than with us , in case of any competitions , or their invasions , or insurrections against the king , and kingdoms peace . sure i am that the parliaments and peoples resolutions against them , after the late fire , and in the time of the last war , when they were so much feared , did discourage and depress them more , than all the rest of their opposers . and though we cannot rationally believe that the people of england , much less wise and sober governors , will ever be such enemies to themselves , as to subject themselves to the romish tyranny , and to forget what ireland and england have seen and felt , yet because it is not only oppression that maketh wise men mad , let us do nothing by unlawful alienations and singularities , or fierce and disobedint oppositions , which tend to make the people like better of the papists than of us . 18. i am not able to bear the thoughts of separating from almost all christs churches upon earth . but he that separateth from one or many upon a reason common to almost all , doth virtually separate from almost all . and he that separateth from all among us upon the account of the unlawfulness of our liturgie , and the badness of all our ministry , doth separate from them upon a reason common to almost all , or the far greatest part , as i conceive . 19. though ministerial conformity be to us , another thing ( by reason of the new impositions , ) than it was to our predecessors yet to the people conformite is the same , if not easier ( especially to them that i now speak to : ) for it is the liturgie , ceremonies and ministry , that most alienate them ( as i said before , and not so much the subscription against the obligation of the covenant . ) and the liturgie is a little amended as to them , by the change of the translation , and some little words , and by some●onger prayers . and the ceremonies are the same ; and thirty years ago there was many bare reading not preaching ministers , for one that there is now : therefore our case of separation being the same with what it was of old , i take it to be fully confuted by the antient non-conformists . and i have so great a veneration for the worthy names ( much more an estimation of the reasonings ) of mr. cartwright , egerton , hildersham , dod , amesius , parker , baines , brightman , ball , bradshaw , paget , langley , nichols , hering , and many other such , that i shall not think they knew not why they chose this subject , and wrote more against separation than the conformists did . nor do i think that the reasons of mr. iohnson and mr. canne , can stand before them . and it pittieth me to hear now many that differ from them say , we are grown wiser and have more light than they ! when as our writings upon the same subjects shew that we are far in that below them ? and in other parts of knowledge , al●s , what are we to reignolds , ames , parker and several of the rest ? but the world knoweth , that the turn of the times put most of us into the sudden possession of our opinions , without one half of the study ( it may be with most , not the hundredth part ) which cartwright , ames , parker , &c. bestowed upon these points . and i never yet saw cause to believe that our present dividers , do learn more in a days study , than those learned holy men did in twenty . nor do they shew more wisdom , or holiness in the main . i am very glad that the pious lectures of mr. hildersham , mr. r. rogers and such other old non-conformists , are in so good esteem among good people , where they will read them urging the people not only against separation , but to come to the very beginning of the publick worship , and preferring it before their private duties . as for them that say , if dod , ames , hildersham , &c. had lived till now , they would have been of our mind . i desire them to prove it , or not affirm it ? is not the liturgie , ceremonies , and ministery the same ? and what signs of such mutability did they shew ? could your reasons have conquered them , more than mr. ainsworths , iohnsons , or cannes ? they were not so light , to be changed causelesly . and i pray you mark , that if you are wiser in this point of separation than all these old non-conformists were , than iohnson , and canne , and howe , were wiser also in that than they , which doth not appear to us by their writings : and then , for all the greater light , that you think you have , yet iohnson , canne , and howe , had as great light , and were in this as wise as you , though ames , and the rest of the nonconformists were not . o that our brethren would but seriously read over the writings of these men , especially iacob , paget , ball , and bradshaw , and gifford against the separatists , and try whether the case was not the same . 20. yea i must confess , that when i think what learned , holy , incomparable men , abundance of the old cenformits were , my heart riseth against the thoughts of separating from them ! if i had come to their churches , when they used the common-prayer , and administred the sacrament , could i have departed and said , it is not lawful for any christian here to communicate with you ? what! to such men as mr. bolton , mr. whateley , mr. fenner , mr. dent , mr. crook , mr. dike , mr. stocke , mr. smith , dr. preston , dr. si●bes , dr. stoughton , dr. taylor , and abundance other such ? yea such as bishop iewel , bishop grindal , bishop hall , bishop potter , bishop davenant , bishop carl●t●n , &c. dr. field , dr. smith , dr iohn white , dr. willet , &c. yea and the martyrs too , as cranmer , ridley , hooper himself , farrar , bradford , philpot , sanders , &c. to say nothing of luther , melanebthon , bucer ; and the rest of the forreign worthies . could i separate from all these on the reasons now in question ? yea calvin himself and the churches of his way , were all separated from by the separatists of their times . 21. at least i cannot easily condemn the ancient independents , who were against separation as well as the presbyterians . mr. henry iacob is accounted the father of the ▪ english independents ; and he hath wrote a book against mr. iohnson the separatist , or th●s title , [ a defence of the churches and ministery of england , written in two treatises against the reasons and objections of mr. francis johnson , and ●thers of the separation , commonly called brow●●●s . ] and in the end he hath [ a short treatise concerning the truness of a pastoral calling in pastors made by prelates . ] and i intreat the reader to note that mr. iohnson there chargeth the church of england and their worship , with no fewer than 91. antichristian abominations . and i would ask any of the dividers , whether they have more than 91. antichristian abominations to charge upon it now . i am content that those i write to now , will cast by my book , if they will but read mr. iacobs . and dr. ames was half an independent , and yet against separation . i need not mention the great moderation of new-england , where their late healing endeavors greatly tend to increase our hopes of reconciliation ? ( o that the rest of the churches were as wise and happy ! ) whose experience hath possessed them with a deep dislike of the spirit of separation and division . yea ( if any thing may be believed which i have not seen ) mr. ph. nie himself hath writen to prove the lawfulness of hearing the preachers in the parish assemblies . and yet it is as confidently confuted by another of the brethren , as my book is by this excepter . and he that proveth it lawful to joyn with them that profess themselves a church , in their ordinary doctrine , and pulpit prayers , and psalms of praise , i think can never prove it unlawful at all times , to joyn with them in the use of the liturgie , or in the sacrament ( supposing the scruple of kneeling removed ) for the most of the liturgie is the reading of the scripture it self , and the rest is sound matter , though in an imperfect mode and fashion of words . 22. is sects and heresies increase among us , the blame of all will be laid upon the non-conformists . and so it now is : they commonly say , it is you that open the door to them all : and how injuriously soever this be said , it becometh our duty , not only to see that it be not true , but also to do our part against them . and this was one great reason why the old nonconformists wrote and preached so much more th●● the bishops against separation ; because all this spurious offspring was fathered on them , and still laid at their doors : and withal because they found how hard it is , to stop men that begin to find real faults with other men , from fancying abundance more that are not real ; and to keep men from running into extreams : and experience told them , that their own party was in danger of running from them , and it was not easie to keep them stable in the sober 〈◊〉 of the truth . especially the independents o● this account , are obliged to be the greatest disswaders of separation , because all sects are fathered on them , and too many of their congregations in england , and new-england , have been lamentably corrupted , or subverted and dissolved by them . 23. there is 〈◊〉 man that is acquainted with church history but knoweth , that as christ was crucified between two thieves , so his church hath been 〈◊〉 and troubled , between the prophane malignant persecutors , and the heretical and sectarian dividers ; even from the dayes of the apostles until this age . insomuch that paul himself , and peter , and iude , and iohn were put to 〈…〉 as largely against the dividers almost as the persecutors . iraenaeus , epiphanius , augustine , theodoret , besides the rest , do sadly tell us in their catalogues and controversies , how lamentably these dividers then hindered the gospel , and distressed and dishonoured the church . and the sad stories of h●lland , munster and others in germany , poland , and especially these twenty years past in england , do bring all closer to our sense . and are not the watch-men of christ still bound to tell the church of their danger on the one side , as well as the other ? yea in some respects to say more on this side , than on that , because religious people are easier and ofter turned to be dividers , than to be persecutors or prophane . 24. all these dangers lying before us , and the non-conformable ministers being under great reproaches , and lamentable hinderances from their sacred work , and called by god to fidelity as in a day of tryal , what guilt would be upon us , what shame would be our due , if we should all be silent whilest we see the principles of division continually increase ? the 〈◊〉 principles which the old non-conformists confuted , greatly propagate themselves , through the smart which alienateth the peoples minds . and reason doth so hardly prevail against feeling , that all that we can say will prove too little . this is the true cause why they cry out now , [ oh the case is changed ! it is not with us as it was in the old non-conformists daies ; ] because they did but hear of what was in those daies , but they see and feel what is done in ours . therefore we had so easie a work comparatively to perswade men that the old separatists were mistaken , but can hardly now perswade them that the same principles are a mistake ; because now they smart , and passion is not easily held in by reason . i can make shift to hold in a mettlesome horse , while he is not provoked ; but if a bishop will come behind me , and la●h him , or prick him , and then blame the rider if he run away with me , i cannot help it . but sure if we must needs have to do with such men , it concerneth us to hold the reines the harder . and if after such grievous judgements , as plagues , flames , poverty , reproach , and silencings , and sad confusions , which god hath tryed us with in these times , his ministers should through passion , policie or sloth , sit still and let professors run into sinful principles and extreams , it will be our aggravated sin . 25. and one reason why i set upon this work was , because i saw few others do it . if it must be done , and others will not , then i must take it for my duty . 26. and another reason was , because i knew but few that i was willing to thrust upon it , so forwardly as my self , for fear of being the author of their sufferings . many may be abler , that are not in other respects so fit . some ministers are young men . and like to live longer to serve god in his church ; and their reputation is needful to their success : if they be vilified , it may hinder their labours . and experience telleth us , that the dividing spirit is very powerful and victorious in censorious vilifying of dissenters . but i am almost miles emeritus at the end of my work , and can reasonably expect to do but little more in the world ; and therefore have not their impediment : and for popular applause , i have tryed its vanity : i have had so much of it , till i am brought to a contempt if not a loathing of it . and whereas some brethren , say , that censures will hinder the success of my writings , i answer , no man shall do his duty without some difficulties and impediments . if my writings will not do good by the evidence of truth in them , and if the censures of dividers are able to frustrate them , let them fall and fail . and some of my brethren have great congregations to teach , which are so inclined to this dividing way , that they cannot bear their information . but when i preached in my house to the most , i knew scarce any of the parish that came not to the parish church , but such as lived in my own house . also many ministers being turned out of all their maintenance , have families and nothing to maintain them , but what the charity of religious people giveth them . ( little do some know what the families of many godly ministers suffer ! ) and some independents are maintained by their gathered churches , and if they cast them off , both reputation , work and maintenance would fail ( for those that silence them will neither honor them , nor maintain them ) . and though i suppose that these brethren would serve god in the greatest contempt and poverty , and self-denial , if they perceive that god doth call them to it , yet i think it a duty of charity in me , to go before them , and do the more displeasing work , to prevent the sufferings of such , or at least , not to thrust them on so hard a service . for i have no church that maintaineth me , nor any people whose estimation i am afraid to lose , that are dividingly inclined , nor ( through gods mercy ) have any need of maintenance from others , and therefore may do my duty at cheaper rates than they . 27. and i will add one reason more of the publishing , though not of the writing of my book . when it had been long cast by , ●●ound in the debater , and ecclesiastical polititian that the nonconformists are made ridiculous and ●dious , as men of erroneous , uncharitable , and ungovernable principles and spirits ( though we subscribe to all the doctrine of the church of england ) and i thought that the publication of this book , should leave a testimony to the generations to come , by which they might know whether we were truly accused , and whether our principles were not as much for love and peace as theirs , and as consistent with order and government . is not the non-conformists doctrine the same with that of the church of england , when they subcribe to it , or offer so to do ? did not his majesty in his declaration about ecclesiastical affairs , complain of them ( dr. burges i suppose ) who pretended a difference between us in doctrine ? if they say that the non-conformists are to be denominated from the major part , i answer , we provoke the willingest of their adversaries to prove , that either the major part , or any thing near it , is of more erroneous doctrinal principles than themselves ? the independents as well as the presbyterians offer to subscribe to the doctrine of the 39. articles , as distinct from prelacy and ceremony . and i must witness that when i was in the country , i knew not of one minister of ten that are now silenced , that was not in the main ( as far as i could discern ) of the same principles with my self . and though any reproacher will blindly injure the non-conformists , who shall judge of them throughout england and scotland by the many parties in london , where a great number of differing opinions alwaies inhabited ; yet i may add that even in london , the burning of the churches , and the notorious necessity of many thousand souls , and the acts which punish them by six moneths imprisonment , if they come within five miles of a corporation , ( and therefore make them think it necessary to keep out of the parish churches , where they may presently be both accused and apprehended ) doth make the practice of many very humble , godly , peaceable , and moderate men ( by preaching at the time of publick worship , when their hearers cannot well come at another time ) to be such as causeth men to misstake their principles . but satan maligning the just vindication of the non-conformists against these accusations , hath by false suggestions stirred up some , who differ from the rest as well as we , to clamour against this book , which was published for the clearing of the innocent : and now they have disclaimed it , they have renounced their own part in those peaceable principles which they disown , and in this vindication ; but i must desire the next accuser , to charge this renunciation upon none but those that he can prove to be guilty of it , and not on the non-conformists . and the rather because ( by a self confutation ) they have shewed themselves , that the old non-conformists were more sober and peaceable ; and i can assure them , that the most of the non-conformists ministers of my acquaintance , are not a jot more rigorous or farther from them , than the old nonconformists were . and that those that treated with the bishops in 1660. did yield to such an episcopacy , as the old non-conformists would scarcely have generally consented to ( viz. bishop ushers model in his reduction . ) if the accusers of the non-conformists shall say , [ by the censure of your book and person you see what non-conformists are , that will joyn in receiving and venting false reports , even of their brethren , before they saw or heard one line of the book , ] i answer to such : 1. call not that the act of the non-conformists , which some of one party of them are drawn to by misinformation . 2. there were so great persons and so many of the conformists concurred in the report , that you may well be silent as to parties , and say that iliacos intra muros , &c. we are all to blame . 3. it cannot be denyed , that among all parties in england , there are so many that take up false reports , and think it no sin if they did but hear it from credible persons , and hereby are satans instruments to vend false defamations , that it is become the shame and crime of the land ; and many strict professors ( excepting the graver and soberer sort ) are too commonly guilty of it , though not so much as others . i will not deny but humane converse requireth some credulity : but if men medled not with other mens matters without a call , and withall did love their neighbours as themselves , and were as tender conscienced as they ought to be , and knew how little before god it will excuse a lie or slander to say , [ i heard it of such an honest man , or i said but what i heard of many , ] it would prevent a great deal of sin . and that it may appear i am impartial , and defend not those faults in the religious sort , which they must repent of , i will intreat you to note from this one instance , these following obvious observations . 1. note by this instance what an inequality there may be in the ●●nd●●ness of mens consciences towards meer words and formes of worship , and towards the sins which nature it self condemneth , if they study not well the wiles of satan ; when the city and country shall have the same men that are tender conscienced ( which i commend ) about a ceremony or the fashion of their prayers , without any scruple or remorse thus receive and publish a slander or falshood , ( that i wrote against private meetings , and for conformity , and that i conformed ) and this before they had ever seen or spoken with one man living that had seen one line of the book , or could report it to them with the least pretense of knowledge . yea and all this against one that had given an opener testimony against conformity , than any one man of all them that thus slandered him , as far as ever i was able to know . 2. note here what i have told you in the book , the great difference between a formal dividing zeal for opinions , and a christian zeal of love and heavenliness and good workes . if you would kindle this latter in your own or others hearts , alas , what holy labour doth it require ? how many lively sermons are all too little to kindle the least flame of loving , heavenly fruitful zeal ! how many meditations and prayers are used before any holy flame appeareth ? but a zeal for our party and our opinions , and our several formes and fashions of speaking to god , will kindle and flame like the fire that consumed london . a sparke from one discontented persons mouth will suddenly take , and engage multitudes in city and country in the affectionate spreading of untruths ; and who can quench it till it go out of it self for want of fewel ? 3. note also the great partiality of multitudes of religious people , and how easily we can aggravate the faults of others , and how hardly we can either aggravate or see our own ! the defects of the liturgie , and the faults of those by whom we suffer , are easily heightned , even beyond desert . but when many of us vend untruths , and slanders against our brethren about the land , who aggravateth this or repenteth of it ? 4. but above all i intreate the dividing brethren , if they can so long lay by their partiality , to judge by this of the reasons of their separation from those churches ( private or parochial ) that they differ from , in tolerable things . you think it a sin to communicate in a church where the liturgie is used , and discipline is not so strictly exercised against some offenders , as you and i desire . but such publicke multiplyed untruths in mens mouths , doth never make you scruple their communion . i intreat you do but study an answer to one that would separate from you all , upon such grounds as these . first for the sin , consider of these texts , exod. 23. 1 , 2. thou shalt not raise a false report : put not thy hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness . thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil ; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest it . psalm 15. 3. he that backhiteth not with his tongue , nor doth evil to his neighbour , nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour . rom. 1. 30. backbiters , ●aters of god , 2 cor. 12. 20. lest there be debate , strifes , backbibitings , whisperings , &c. prov. 25. 23. an angry counterance driveth away a backbiting tongue : tit. 3. 1 , 2. put them in mind to be ready to every good work ; to speak evil of no man. 1 pet. 2. 1. laying aside evil speakings — 1 tim. 6. 4. whereof cometh evil surmisings , eph. 4. 31. let evil speakings be put away from you . jud. 10. these speak evil of those things which they know not . jam. 4. 11. speak not evil one of another ; he that speaketh evil of another and judgeth another , speakevil of the law , and judgeth the law. have you more and plainer texts of scripture agninst the common prayer than all these are ? now suppose one should say that a people of such sin as this should not be communicated with , especially where there is no discipline exercised that ever so much as calleth one man of them to repentance for it : what answer will you give to this , which will not confute your own objections , against communion with many parish churches in this land. 5. lastly hence note , how still overdoing is undoing . by the principles of love and peace conteined in the book which some reproach , had they not disowned them , they might have had their part in this just vindication , against them that accuse the non-conformists principles of enmity to love and peace : but they would have no part in it , and have cast away their own vindication , and so have confirmed their accusers , and tempted them to believe that some non-conformists are indeed such as they described : but i must again intreat them to distinguish : many sects go under the name of nonconformists , from whom we differ incomparably more than we do from the conformists ; as the quakers , seekers b●hmenists , and some others . we are none of those men that , because we all suffer together under the prelacy , do therefore more close with these , than with the conformists , with whom in doctrine and the substance of worship , we agree . but because it is their own resolved choice , to disown the principles and vindication of that book , i shall only say , i. to our accusers [ it is not these dividers which we vindicate , that will not stand to our vindication ] . ii. to posterity ( whose historical information of the truth of matters in this age i much desire , ) [ if you would know what sort of men they are , that these times call sectaries and dividers or separatists , i will give you but their own character of themselves , that you may be sure i wrong them not : peruse the book called , the cure of church-divisions ; for they are persons so contrary to that book , as that they take it to be an evil and mischievous thing , and greatly to be lamented and detested : in so much that some of them say , it had been well if the author had dyed ten years ago , and others , that this book hath done more harm than ever he did good in all his life . so intolerable is it to them , to have their love-killing and dividing principles so much as thus contradicted , while they cry out against the imposing spirit of others . the measure of their distaste against these principles of love and unity , i leave you to gather out of the exceptions which i am now to answer . cap. 2. the true state as the controversie , between me , and those whom i call church-dividers . because the excepter carrieth it all along , as if he understood not what i say , or would not have his reader understand it , i must state the case as it standeth between us , for the sake of them that love not to be deceived , nor to be angry at they know not what . know therefore that the design of the writer of that book was , to restore love and unity among christians , which he saw decaying and almost dying through the temptation of our sufferings from some , and our differences with others , and through the sidings of parties , and through the passions which conquer some mens judgements , and the hy 〈…〉 e of others , who place their religion in their sidings , and in the forms or fashions of the words of their prayers , or the circumstances of outward worship : and to acquaint christians with the wiles of satan , who would kill their grace , by killing their love , whilst they think they do but preserve their purity . and to open to them the secret windings of the serpent , and the workings of pride , and wrath , and selfishness , against the works of love and peace : and to shew them the great deceitfulness of mans heart , which often fighteth against god as for god , by fighting against love and unity ; and which oft loseth all , by seeming to overcome , and forsaketh religion by seeming valiant for it ; ) and i especially intreat the reader to note , that i said much more about principles , than practices ; because i know that as to communion with this or that church , m●ns practices may vary upon accidental and prudential accounts , of which i pretend not to be a judge : and therefore i first speak against love killing principles , and then against such practices only , as either proceed from such principles , or increase them . if i see a man stay from church , as i know not his reasons , so i judge him not ; unless as he doth it upon sinful causes , and especially if he would propagate those causes to others , and justifie them to be of god , when they are against him . and whereas hatred and enmity worketh by driving men from each others societies , as wicked or intolerable , and love worketh by inclining men to union and communion ; and again , mens distance increaseth the enmity which caused it ; and their nearness and familiarity increaseth love , and reconcileth them ; i did therefore think it a matter of great necessity to our welfare , to counsel men to all lawful nearness and communion , and to disswade them from all unnecessary alienation and separation from each other ▪ let the reader also understand , that in this , my purpose was not to condemn mens separation from the parish churches only , nor more than any other sinful separation : but from any true church of christians whatsoever ; when uncharitable principles drive them away , whether it be from presbyterians , independents , anabaptists , arminians , lutherans , &c. only because that those i deal most with , make most exceptions against communion with the parish churches , i bestowed most words in answering such exceptions . therefore observe 1. that it is none of our question , [ whether you should communicate with the parish churches alone , and no other ? 2. nor [ whether you should communicate with every parish church , or any one whose pastors are through insufficiency , heresie or impiety intolerable ? which i have written against dir. 36. p. 202 , &c. 3. nor [ whether we may hold local communion in worship with a church which denyeth us such communion , unless we will sin : this i have oft enough denyed , p. 203 , &c. 4. nor [ whether caeteris paribus local communion with a purer and better church , be not ordinarily to be preferred before local communion with a worse ? ( which i assert , p. 203 , &c. ) 5. nor [ whether a man be a separatist from another church , meerly because he is not locally present with it ? ( for then when i am in one church , i separate from all other in the world ? ) 6. nor [ whether it be lawful to remove ones dwelling , for communion with a better minister and church , supposing that we are free ? p. 204. 7. nor [ whether it be lawful to remove to a better church , without removing ones dwelling , in a place where another church is near , to which we may go without any publick injury , or hurt to our selves or others , which is greater than the benefit , pag. 204. 8. nor [ whether we may remove both from church and countrey , by the occasions of our callings or trades , or other outward weighty reasons ? pag. 298. 9. nor [ whether we may keep in communion privately with our lawful pastors , if they be turned out of the publick temples ? ] which i have asserted , pag. 299. and have said , that where the pastor is , there the church is , in whatever place they do assemble , p. 250. ( which dr. hide also thought , when he began his book with an assertion of the necessity of separating then from the publick places . and so did other prelatists then , and so think the papists now , and most other parties . ) 10. nor is it any of our question , [ whether you should have communion with a diocesan church , as such ; ( it is a parochial church with such others that i spake of , and never a word of a diocesan church . ) 11. therefore it is none of the question [ whether you must own our diocesan bishops ? ] 12. nor yet [ whether you must have communion with any thing called , a national church , as a political society constituted of an ecclesiastical head and body , and denominated from that form , ●r constitutive head ? though we must own a national church , as it is improperly so denominated , from the king that is the civil head ( accidental , and not constitutive to the spiritual church . ) and as it is a community of christians , and a part of the universal church , united by the concord of her pastors ; who in synods may represent the whole ministry , and be the means of their agreement . 13. nor is it the question , [ whether you must needs hold communion with those individual bishops , whom you account the persecutors , and causes of our silence and confusions . i have told you in the story of martin , how he separated from the synods of th●se individual bishops , and from their local communion , without separating from the office , the churches , or from any other bishops . this is a matter that i did not meddle with , because it is not their communion that you are called to , but the parish churches . indeed to save m●ns lives , he did yield to the emperour once to communicate with them ; but ( saith sulp. severus ●i●l . 3. p. bib. pa● . 254. summa vi episcopis nitentibus , ut communionem ill●m subscriptione firmaret , extorqueri non potuit . and the angel that appeared to him said [ merito martine compungeris ; sed aliter exi●e nequi●ti : repara virtutem , resume constantiam , n● jam non periculum gloriae sed salutis incu●reris . ita ; ab illo tempore satis cavit , cum illa i●ha●ianae partis communione mis●●ri . and after finding his power of miracles abated , with tears he con●essed to sulpit. that propter communionis illius malum , cui se vel puncto temporis , necessitate , non spiritu mis●●isset , d●trimentum s●etire virtutis . s●d●●im p●s●ea vixit annos , nullam synodum adiit , ab omnibus episc●porum conve●●ibus se rem●vit . but this was only from those bishops who by provoking magistrates against the priscillian gnosticks , had brought all strict religious people under scorn . but he separated not from any others . 14. nay , i made it none of our question , [ whether you should communicate , with any parish minister , who concurreth with the● in the said matters whi●h y●u ●●cuse the bishops of , a●y farther than by c●●●orming to the la● . for it is but few o● 〈◊〉 parish ministers that were conv●cation men , or that you can prove did ever consent to our silencing . 15. nor is it any of the question , [ whether those also be guilty of separation and divisions , wh● shall make unnecessary engines of division , and ●●y upon the ne●ks of any churches such unnecessary things as have a tendency to divide . ] who hath said more against this , than i have done ? 16. nor is it any of our question , [ which of the two is the greater cause of divis●●●s , or which of the foresaid persons is m●●t 〈◊〉 ? ] who hath spoken plainlier in this , than i ? i● the brother that excepteth would ma●● you believe , that any one of these is the 〈◊〉 , i● you believe him , he doth but deceiive you . but whom i mean by s●parati●● ▪ i hav● pla●ly told you , pag. 249. 2●0 . &c. ☞ and that which i perswade men to , is this : 1. to love all christians as themselves . 2. to hold nothing , and do nothing which is contrary to this love , and would destroy it . 3. therefore to deny no christians to be christians , nor no churches to be churches , nor no lawful worship of any m●de or party to be lawfull . 4. not to sep●●ate from any others upon any of these three false suppositions or accusations , ( viz. 1. as no true christians : 2. as no true churches : 3. as having no true worship , or as worshipping , so as it is not lawful to joyn with them . ) 5. to choose the most edifying ministry , and the soundest church , and purest manner of worshipping god , that possibly you can have on lawful terms , as to your ordinary use and communion , so far as you are free to choose . 6. to joyn with a defective faulty true church , ordinarily , and in a manner of worship which is defective , when you can have no better , on lawful terms , ( as without the publick injury , or your own greater hinderance than help ) and i prove , that this is the worst that you can charge ( as to this matter of communion ) on those parish churches in england , that have honest comp●tent pastors ; and the same others charge on the churches of independents and anabaptists . and that it is a duty to hold communion with any one of th●se constantly when you can have no better . 7. that if you can statedly have better ; yet sometimes to communicate with a defective church , as a stranger may do , that is not int●ressed in their discipline , or is no stated member , is not only lawful , but , for the ends sake , is a duty , when our never communicating with them is scandalous , and offensive to our rulers , and tendeth to make people think that we hold that to be unlawful which we do not , and when our actual communion is apt and needful to shew our judgement , and to cherish love and christian concord . on which account , as i would statedly communicate with the greek church , if i were among them , and had no better ; and would sometimes communicate with them in , their prayers and sacraments , if i did but pass through the countrey as a stranger , or if i could have better ; even so would i do with a parish church , if as faulty as you can justly charge it ( with the foresaid limitations ) or with a church of anabaptists or independents , ( if they did not use their meetings to destroy either piety or love. ) this is my judgement ; this is the summ of all that i plead for , as to communion . if the excepter deny not this , he talketh not at all to me . if any that have passionately reviled my book and me , do say , we thought you had gone further , and pleaded for more : i answer them , that we should not speak untruths , and revile things before we understand them , and then come off with [ i thought you had said more . ] it is this with other love-killing distempers that i strive to cure. and again i tell you , that it is , 1. ignorance : 2. pride , or overvaluing our own understandings : 3. and uncharitableness generated of these two , which is the cause of our cruelties and our unlawful separations , and which breed and feed our threatning divisions , among the parties on both extreams . and it s the death of these three that must be our cure. cap. 3. some objections ( or questions ) about separation answered . as to that party who think anabaptists and independents unfit for their communion , i am not now dealing with them ; and therefore am not to answer their objections . only on the by i shall here mind them ; 1. that it is not such as the old german anabaptists , who denyed magistracy to christians , &c. that i speak of ; but such as only deny infant baptism : and that many of them , are truly godly sober men ; and therefore capable of communion . and that the ancient churches left it to men ▪ liberty at what time they would have their children baptized . 2. that many independents are downright against separation ; mr. iacob hath notably written against it . therefore those that are but meer independents , refuse not communion with the parish churches : and why should you refuse communion with them ? 3. that many that separate , secundum quid , or pro tempore , from some part of worship only and for a season , yet separate not simply from the churches as no churches , nor would do all as they do , in othe● circumstances . for instance , when they come not to the publick assemblies , yet they will not refuse you , if you will come to theirs . go to their meetings , and see if they so far separate , as to forbid you ? nor perhaps to their sacraments , if you will submit to their way , as you expect they should do by yours . now seeing we are all agreed , that the magistrate doth not make ministers , churches ( or sacraments , ) but only encourage , protect and rule them , i desire you but to be so impartial as to consider that 1. you count not your selves separatists , because you never go to one of their meetings in their houses or other places ; why then should you call them separatists , only for not coming to yours ? 2. but if they are guilty of separation for holding either that your churches and ministry are null , or that communion with you is unlawful by gods law , enquire how far you also are separatists , if you say the same without proof by any others , ( though their lawfulness by the law of the land , i justifie not , no nor the regularity of their church assemblies . ) 4. and i would here note how partial most men are . they that think an independent or anabaptist , yea , or a presbyterian intolerable at home in their several churches , yet if they would but come to their communion , they would receive them as tolerable members . and they that think it unlawful to hold communion with the prelatists , and give the reason partly from their unfitness , yet would receive them ( in many churches ) if they did but change their opinions , and desire communion with them in their way . but it is those that judge parish communion ( where there are godly ministers ) unlawful , that i am here to speak to . and their principal doubts are such as many good and sober persons need an answer to . quest . i. quest. 1. doth not the second commandment , and gods oft expressed jealousie in the matters of his worship , make it a sin to communicate in the ●●turgi● ? answ 1. the meaning of the second commandment ( mistaken by many ) is directly to forbid corporal or interpretative idolatry , and worshipping god by images , as if he were like ● creature : and scandalousl● symbolizing with the idolaters ▪ or worshippers of false gods ▪ by doing that which in outward appearance is the worshipping of a false god , though the mind be pretended to be kept free . now the worshipping of the true god in the words of the liturgie , hath none of this ; nor will any but a sinful c●nsurer think that it is the worshipping of a false god. nor is every use of the same places , words , or other things indifferent , a symbolizing with idolatry : but the saying those words , or the using those acts or ceremonies , by which their false religion in specie is notified , as by a tessera , or badge to the world . or using the symbols of their religion as differing from the true . even as the use of baptism , and the lords supper , the creed , and the constant use of our church-worship , are the symbols of the christian religion . so their sacraments , incense , sacrificings , and worshipping conventions , were the symbols of worshipping false gods ; which therefore christians may not use . but they that say , that all false worship of the true god is idolatry , add to gods word , and teach doctrines which are but the forgeries of their own brain . though more than idolatry be forbidden by consequence in the second commandment , that proveth it not to be idolatry , because it s there so forbidden . 2. i have after distinguished of false worship , and told you , that if by false , you mean forbidden , or not commanded , or sinful , we all worship god falsly in the manner every day , and in some part of the matter very oft . our disorders , confusion , tautologies , unfit expressions , are all forbidden , and so false worship : and if god prohibit any disorder which is in the liturgie , he prohibits the same in extemporate prayers ( in which some good christians are as failing as the liturgie ) and as the words of the liturgie are not commanded in the scripture , so neither are the words of our extemporate or studied sermons or prayers . 3. god hateth every sin in every prayer ; but he hateth the avoiding of prayer , and of due communion much more . he hateth every disorder in extemporate prayer ; and yet he more hateth that censoriousness and curiosity , which would draw men to forsake the substantials of worship , or christian love and communion on that pretence . gods jealousie in his worship is most about the heart , and next about the substantials of his own institutions , and of natural worship , and least about the phrase of speech and order , while it is not such , as is grosly dishonourable to the nature of god , and to the greater things . and though god under the law expressed his jealousie much about ceremonies , yet that was not for the ceremonies sake , but to controll gross irreverence and contempt of holy things ( as in the case of uzzah , the bethshemites , uzziah , aarons sons ) and to keep up an esteem of the holiness of god , and to restrain sacrilegious presumption . and under the gospel , it is neither this place of worship , nor that , neither this mountain , nor ierusalem , but spirit and truth that god most looks at . it is not whether you pray by a book , or without , by words fore-studied or not , by words of your own contriving , or of anothers , that god is now jealous of . for even when you want words , he accepteth the groans excited by his spirit , rom. 8. 26 , 27. if christians should plead gods jealousie about his worship ; as censoriously against thelr own prayers , as they do against other 〈◊〉 and churches in this case , they would turn prayer into the fuel of despair and torment . for god is so jealous of his worship , that he hateth all the sinful dulness , emptiness , wandrings , vain repetitions , confusions , unseemly expressions , of all your secret prayers , and all your family prayers . and yet i would advise you neither to think that god therefore hateth you , or the prayer it self , nor yet to fly from god and prayer , nor family worship , where it is no better done , gods jealousie , especially under the gospel , is to be minded for to drive us from our sloth and carelesness , to do the best we can , but not to drive us from him , or from prayer , or from one another . these are satans ends of minding men of gods jealousie , as he doth troubled souls to drive them to despair . and others may scruple joining with your weaknesses and faults in worship on pretence of gods jealousie , as well as you with theirs . what if twenty ministers be one abler than another , in their several degrees ( and the lowest of them doth weaklier than the liturgick forms . ) doth it follow , that only the ablest of all these may be joyned with , because that all the rest do worse ? it is granted that we must offer god the best , that we have or can do . but not the best which we cannot do ? and many things must concurr ( and especially a respect to the publick good ) to know which is the best . quest . ii. quest. 2. doth not the covenant make it now unlawful , to hold communion in the use of the liturgie ? answ. to hold communion in the liturgie ordinarily where we cannot lawfully have better , and extraordinarily where we can have better , is a thing that we are bound to by the covenant , and not at all bound against . for those of the independent way who think as mr. eaton writeth that the covenant bindeth not , i need not here say any thing as to their satisfaction . for others i say , 1. there is no word in all the covenant expresly against the liturgie . 2. if there had been any word in it against communion with the churches that use the liturgie , it had been sin , and against our duty , and therefore could not bind . 3. the judgement of protestants is , that vowes must not make us new duties of religion but bind us faster by a self obligation , to that which god binds us to without them . therefore ( though if we should vow an indifferent thing , it would bind , yet ) this could not be taken for the covenanters intention . 4. and it is commonly agreed , that if we vow a thing indifferent , it bindeth us not when the indifferency ceaseth : which may be by the magistrate● command , or by another mans necessity , or change of cases : else a man might before hand prev●●t most of the magistrates obligations , and his p●re●ts and masters too , and escape obedience ; and might say with the pharisees , it is corban , or a devoted thing . 5. it rem●●neth therefore that no man of us all hath need to go , or ought to go to the covenant to know what is his duty in the worship of god , but only to the scripture ; seeing if scripture make it no● a duty , the magistrates law will make the doing of it a sin ; and if scripture make it not a sin , the magistrates command will make it a duty . but when we know what is duty or sin ( in our case ) we may go to our vows next to prove that it is a double duty or a double or aggravated sin but no otherwise . therefore let the scripture only decide the first case , whether it be lawful or not . 6. the covenant or vow expresly bindeth us against schisme . but the renunciation of communion which i now dispute against , is plaine schisme ; therefore we are bound against it by that vow . 7. the covenant bindeth us against all that is contrary to the power of godliness , and found doctrine . but the separating which i plead against is certainly such . 8. the covenant bindeth us to unity and the nearest uniformity we can attain . but as the world goeth now , this communion is the nearest , and needful to express our unity . 9. the covenant bindeth us to reformation according to gods word , and the example of the best reformed churches : but to prefer no publick worship or a worse , before the liturgie , is deformation and prophaneness , and it is greater reformation to prefer the liturgie before none , than to prefer extemporate publick worship before the liturgie . and all the reformed churches in christendom , do commonly profess to hold communion with the english churches in the liturgie , if they come among us where it is used . therefore it seemeth to me to be perjury and covenant-breaking , either to prefer no publick worship before the liturgie , or to refuse occasional communion with the churches that use the liturgie , as a thing meerly on that account unlawful . quest . iii. quest. 3. whether the case be not much altered since the old non-conformists wrote against separation , then called brownisme ? and whether we have not greater light into these controversies than they ? answ. 1. the case of ministers conformity is much altered , by a new act which requireth subscribing new things , declaring assent and consent to all things prescribed and conteined in and by three books ; and by some other things . but that part of the liturgie which the people are to joyn in is made better , as is shewed before . and if we are returned to the same state that they were then in , we are under the same duties that they were under . and let it be remembred , that we never vowed that god should not bring us back to the same case ( which had been blasphemy ) and therefore it had been bad enough , if we had vowed not to do what was our duty in that state , if god should return us to it . 2. i earnestly intreat the doubting reader , that thinketh his duty and the churches peace , to be worth so much labour , but to read over some of the old non-conformists books against separation . and if you there find the very same objections answered ( or more and greater ) than judge your selves whether their case and ours was ( as to this cause ) the same . the books i would desire you to read are , mr. iacobs the independent against iohnson ; mr. bradshaws against iohnson , with mr. gatakers defence of it against canne : mr. gifford , mr. darrel , mr. paget , mr. hildersham , dr. ames , mr. cartwright , mr. brightman , and last of all and fulliest at the beginning of our troubles , mr. iohn ball in three books . but of this having spoken already , i shall repeat no more ; but only to profess my judgement , that our ordinary boasters that think they know more in this controversie than the old non-conformists did , as far as i am able to discern are as far below them almost , as they are below either chamier , sadeel , whitaker or such others in dealing with a papist . which of them can say that , about episcopacy , as gersom , bucer , didoclaue , blondell , salmasius have done ? and so of the rest . quest . iiii. quest. 4. is it not a shameful receding from our reformation , now to use an unreformed liturgie , and a pulling down of what we have been building . answ. 1. it is not fit here to enquire who it is that hath pulled down , and destroyed reformation : though it be easie to discern it . but this is certain , that god hath set up the government that is over us , and that our governours take down by their laws , that which we accounted reformation : this is not our worke , but theirs : and that they permit us not otherwise publickly to worship god. and that a man in goal doth ordinarily joyn in no publick worship at all . and where men do venture on other manner of worship in forbidden assemblies , the fears of some and the passionate discontent of others , and the disturbances by souldiers and officers , and such like , do take off much of the edification , and hinder us from such a frame of mind as is most agreeable to the work and day . and to worship god no where , is to go farther from reformation , than to worship him by the liturgie . 2. to do it of choice is one thing , and to do it as a duty put upon us by gods providence , and our governours , when we can do no better , is another thing . it is god that hath pulled down our liberty and opportunity to serve him otherwise : and we must obey him . it is no faulty mutability , to change our practice , when god by changing our condition doth change our duty : no more than it was in paul who to the jews became a jew , and circumcised timothy , and shaved his head for his vow &c. and became all things to all men : and no more than it was in augustine who professeth that he would worship god , as to formes and ceremonies , according as the church did with which he joyned where ever he came : nor no more than it is in a traveller or merchant to joyn , in several countries , in several fashions and ceremonies or rites of outward worship . quest . v. quest. 5. will it not strengthen and encourage the adversaries of reformation ? answ. 1. we must not make such carnal policies our guides , as to forbear that which god doth make our duty , for fear of encouraging other men . if we take this to be uncharitable factiousness in others , to desire rather all these distractions in the church , than that the non-conformists should be encouraged and strengthned by seeming to have justly desired a reformation , let us not be guilty of what we blame . 2. if you will believe themselves , it is the unwilling conformists that they are most in danger of , who profess that they conform of necessity , and desire a reformation ; as dr. william smith hath shewed in a book written to that end . the assembly of westminster that set up the presbytery were such conformists . 3. it is sinful pride and tenderness of their own honour , which maketh some men avoid their duty , and wrathfully grudge at them that speak for it , because those that are against them thence take occasion to insult over them or reproach them . if men do but say , you are now turncòats and time servers , and where is your reformation now , and you are now glad to do as we do , they think this reason enough why they should forbear that communion and worship which is their duty . are these beseeming self denying humble persons ? could they suffer death for their duty sake , that cannot bear a little reproach for it . object . if we knew it were our duty we would suffer for it . answ. but is it not this very suffering and reproach , and insulting of others , which maketh you think that it is not your duty ? and so carnal persons use to do . they will believe nothing to be their duty which they must suffer by . let gods honour be all to you , and your own be nothing , and you will not much stick at such things as these . quest . vi. quest. 6. but will not this course divide us among our selves ; while one goeth to the parish churches and another doth not ? answ. 1. mr. tombes did not stick at dividing the anabaptists when he wrote for parish communion . and mr. philip nye did not stick at the fear of dividing the independents , when he wrote a m. s. ( as i am credibly informed ) for the hearing of the parish preachers , ( though another wrote against it presently after ) . and if an ordinary attendance on their publick doctrine be lawful , this will go further than many think , to prove the rest of the communion lawful . 2. we are already so far divided in our judgements , as for one to hold it to be lawful , and another to be unlawful : and who can cure this division ? and why should it divide us more , if mens practice be according to their judgements , rather than for them to sin against their consciences ? 3. the great thing in which we differ from the prelatists yea and papists too is , that we would have our union laid only upon necessary things , and liberty and charity maintained in the rest . and shall we now contradict our selves , and say that things necessary are not sufficient for our union ? cannot we hold union among our selves , if some go to the publick assemblies , and some do not ? what is this but to have the imposing domineering spirit , which we speak so much against ? we cannot better confute the uncharitable dividing spirit of the world , than by shewing them , that we can hold love and union , notwithstanding as great differences as this , ( yea , and much greater . ) quest . vii . quest. 7. shall we not hereby countenance the prelates in church-tyranny and usurpation ? and invite them to go further , and to make more burdens of forms and ceremonies to lay upon the churches ? answ. without medling now with the question , what guilt it is that lyeth on any prelates in the points here mentioned , i answer , on your own supposition ; 1. that it is the king and his laws which we obey herein , and not the diocesans . 2. how openly and fully have we declared our utter dissent from the things which you suppose that we shall countenance them in ? our writings are yet visible : our conferences were notorious . and is not the loss of our ministry , and the loss of all ecclesiastical maintenance , and the pinching wants of many poor ministers , and their numerous families , and our suffering volumes of reproach , confinements , &c. a signification of our dissent ? the case is somewhat hard with abundance of godly faithful ministers ? few that never felt it themselves , can judge aright , what it is to want a house to dwell in , a bed to lye on , to have wives that are weak natured , to keep in yearly patience under all such necessities , which the husband can bear himself ; to have children crying in hunger and rags , and to have a landlord calling for his rent , and butchers , and brewers , and bakers , and drapers , and taylors , and shoo-makers calling for money , when there is none to pay them ( there being no fifth part of church-maintenance now allowed them ) : in the frost and snow to have no fire , nor money to but it ! and yet all this is little in comparison of their restraint from preaching the gospel of salvation ; and the displeasure of their governours against them if they preach . and is not all this yet an open signification of their dissent from the things which they so far deny complyance with ? if some of their accusers on both sides were but in the same condition , they would think it should go for a sufficient notification of dissent . 3. we perswade no man to any one sin , for communion with others , no not to save their lives . if the thing be proved unlawful to be used ( and not only unlawful to be so imposed ) we exhort all to avoid it . 4. yea , if an over numerous aggregation of things which singly are lawful , should make them become a snare and injury to the church ; we would have all in their places sufficiently signifie their dissent ; or if the number shall turn them into a sin in the users , we would have none to use them . though we would not have men censure or contemn one another ( much less destroy one another ) fo● a matter of meats , or dayes , or shadows ; yet if any will by false doctrine or imperiousness , say touch not , taste not , handle not , and will judge us in respect to meat , or drink , or holy dayes , or the new moon , or sabbaths , col. 2. 16. 21. we would have all men to bear a just testimony to the truth , and to their christian liberty . 5. but if the defects of publick worship be tolerable , and if providence , necessity and laws , concurr to call us to use them , ( when else we must use none , or do worse ) here communion doth become our duty : and a duty must not be cast off , for fear of seeming to countenance the faults of others . we have lawful means to signifie our dissent : it is not in our power to express it how we please , nor to go as far from the faulty as we can , to avoid the countenancing of their faults : but we must do gods work in his own way : and we must disown mens sins only by prudent lawful means , and not by any that are contrary to christian love and peace , or a breach of any law of god. 6. paul was not for countenancing any of the falsehoods and faults which he reproveth in any of the churches , especially partiality , sensuality , drunkenness at the very sacrament or love feasts , 1 cor. 11 , &c. and yet he never bids them forsake the communion of the church for it , till they shall reform . there were other wayes of testifying dislike . 7. i must not countenance an honest weak minister or master of a family , in the disorder or defects , or errors of his prayer or instructing ; and yet if they be tolerable errors or defects , i must not forsake either church or family-worship with him , that i may discountenance him . 8. there be errors on the contrary side , which are not without considerable danger ; which we are obliged also to take heed of countenancing . i will instance but in two ; one in doctrine , and the other in practice . 1. there are men otherwise very honest , and truly godly , and of holy and unblameable lives , who think that the scripture is intended by god , not only as a general , but a particular law or rule , for all the very circumstances of worship , ( yea , some say of the common business of our lives ) : and that the second commandment in particular condemneth all that is the product or invention of man in or about the worship of god ; and that to deny this is to deny the perfection of the scripture ; and that all written books , and printed , are images there forbidden ; and that all studied or prepared sermons , ( as to method or words , whether in notes or memory ) are forbidden images of preaching , and that all provided words or forms ( written , or in memory , of our own or other mens contrivance or composition ) are forbidden images of prayer ; and all prepared metre and tunes are forbidden images of praise or singing ; and that no man that useth any such preparation or form of words in preaching or prayer , doth preach or pray by the help of gods spirit : and that if parents do but teach a child a form of words to pray in , they teach him this forbidden imagery , yea , idolatry . i hope the number is but small that are of this opinion , and that it being commonly disowned by the non-conformists , no justice or modesty can charge it on them , but only on the few persons that are guilty of it . but yet i must say , that we are obliged to take heed of countenancing this error , as well as of countenancing church-usurpations . for 1. when a few men of eminent integrity are of this mind , it proveth to us that many more may be brought to it , and are in danger of it ; because meer piety and honesty is not enough to keep men from it : yea , when men otherwise eminent also for learning and great understanding are of that mind ( as they are ) poor , ignorant , unlearned persons , though very godly , are not out of the danger of it . 2. and if it prevail , what abundance of hurt will it do ? 1. you may read in the new ecclesiastical politician , how it will exasperate the minds of others , and give them matter of bitter reproach , and for the sake of a very few , how many that are blameless shall be aspersed with it ? and the cause of the non-conformists , yea , with many , the protestant , yea , and the christian religion , rendred contemptible and odious by it . 2. it draweth men into the dangerous guilt of adding to the word of god , under pretence of strict expounding it , and defending its perfection and extent . 3. by the same rule as they deal thus by one text ( as the second command ) they may do so by all : and if all or much of the scripture were but thus expounded , i leave it to the sober reader to consider , what a body of divinity it would make us , and what a religion we should have ? 4. it altereth the very definition of the holy scripture , and maketh it another thing : that which god made to be the record of his holy covenant , and the law and rule of faith and holiness , and the general law for outward modes and circumstances , which are but accidents of worship , is pretended by men to be a particular law , for that which it never particularly medleth with . 5. it sorely prepareth men for infidelity , and to deny the divine authority of the scripture , and utterly to undo all by overdoing . if satan could but once make men believe , that the scripture is a rule for those things that are not to be found in it at all , and which god never made it to be a rule for , he will next argue against it , as a delusory and imperfect thing . he will teach every artificer , to say , that which is an imperfect rule , is not of god. but the scripture is an imperfect rule . for saith , the watch-maker , i cannot learn to make a watch by it ; saith the scrivener , i cannot make a legal bond or indentures by it ; saith the carpenter , i cannot build a house by it ; saith the physician , i cannot sufficiently know or cure diseases by it ; saith the mathematician , astronomer , geographer , musician , arithmetician , the grammarian , logician , natural philosopher , &c. it is no perfect particular rule of our arts or sciences : the divine will say , it tells me not sufficiently and particularly what books in it self are canonical , nor what various readings are the right , nor whether every text be brought to us uncorrupted , nor whether it be to be divided into chapters and verses , and into how many : nor what metre or tune i must sing a psalm in , nor what persons shall be pastors of the churches , nor what text i shall choose next , nor what words i shall use in my next sermon or prayer , with abundance such like : only in general , both nature and scripture say , let all things be done in order and to edification , &c. spiritually , purely , believingly , wisely , zealously , constantly , &c. he that believeth it to be given as such a particular rule , and then findeth that it is silent or utterly insufficient to that use , is like next to cast it away as a delusion , and turn an infidel , or anti-scripturist . 6. this mistake tendeth to cast all rational worship out of the church and world ; by deterring men from inventing or studying how to do gods work aright . for if all that man inventeth or deviseth be a forbidden image , than we must not invent or find out by study , the true meaning of a text , the true method of praying or preaching , according to the various subjects : nay , we must not study what to say , till we are speaking , nor what time , place , gesture , words to use ; no nor the very english tongue that we must pray and preach in , whereas the scripture it self-requireth us , to meditate day and night , to study to shew our selves workmen that need not be ashamed : to search and dig for knowledge , &c. do they not err that devise evil ? but mercy and truth shall be to them that devise good : prov. 14. 22. i wisdom dwell , with prudence ( or subtilty ) and find out knowledge of witty inventions , prov. 8. 12. the preacher sought to find out acceptable words , eccles. 12. 10. banish study , and you banish knowledge and religion from the world : the spirit moveth us to search and study , and thereby teacheth us what to judge , and say , and do ; and doth not move us , as i play on an instrument , that knoweth not what it doth . 7. this opinion will bring in all confusion instead of pure reasonable worship : while every man is left to find that in the scripture which never was there , and that as the only rule of his actions , one will think that he findeth one thing there , and another another thing . for it must be reality and verity , which must be the term of unity : men cannot agree in that which is not . 8. yea , it will let in impiety and error ; for when men are sent to seek and find that which is not there , every man will think that he findeth that , which his own corrupted mind brings thither . 9. and hereby all possibility of union among christians and churches must perish , till this opinion perish : for if we must unite only in that which is not in being , we must not unite at all . if we must all in singing psalms , agree in no metre or tune in the church but one that scripture hath prescribed us , we shall sing with lamentable discord . 10. and hereby is laid a snare to tempt men into odious censures of each other : because studied sermons , printed books , catechisms and forms of prayer , are images and idolatry , in these mens conceits , all gods churches in the world must be censured as idolatrous . and almost all his ministers in the world must be accounted idolaters ; children must account their parents idolaters , and disobey them that would teach them a catechism , psalm or form of prayer . our libraries must be burnt or cast away as images ; and when ministers are diminished , and accounted idolaters , if satan could next but perswade people against all the holy books of the ministers of christ ( such as boltons , prestons , &c. ) as images and idols , had he not plaid a more succesful game , then he did by iulian , and doth by the turks , who keep the christians but from humane learning ? 11. hereby christian love will be quenched , when every man must account his brother an idolater , that cannot shew a scripture , for the hour , the place of worship , the bells , the hour-glasses , the pulpit , the utensils , &c. or that studieth what to say before he pray or preach ? 12. and hereby backbiting , slandering and railing must go currant as no sin , while every calvin , cartwright , hildersham , perkins , sibbs , &c. that used a form of prayer , yea , almost all the christians in the world , must be accused of idolatry , as if it were a true and righteous charge . 13. and all our sins will be fathered on god , as if the second commandment and the scripture perfection did require all this , and taught children to disobey their parents and masters , and say your prayers and catechisms are images and idols , &c 14. it will rack and perplex the consciences of all christians ; when i must take my self for an idolater , till i can find a particular law in scripture , for every tune , metre , translation , method , word , vesture , gesture , utensil , &c. that i use in the worshipping of god : when conscience must build only in the air , and rest only on a word which never was . 15. it will have a confounding influence into all the affairs and business of our lives . 16. lastly , it will affright poor people from scripture and religion , and make us , our doctrine and worship , ridiculous in the ●ight of all the world . the doctrine ( which we hear maintained ) which hath no better fruits than these , must be avoided , as well as the contrary extream , which would indeed charge the law of god with imperfection , and cause man to usurp the part of christ. and we must first know , how far god made the scripture for our rule ? and then we must maintain its sufficiency and perfection . ii. also on that extream , we must do nothing to countenance those practices which tend to alienate christians hearts from one another , and to keep up church-wars , or to feed bitter censures , scorns and reproaches . and we that must not scandalize the religious sort , must avoid all that thus tempteth them , which is the real scandal . but of this i have said enough in the book which i am now defending . part ii. an answer to the untrue and unjust exceptions of the antidote against my treatise for love and unity . dear brother ( for so i will call you , whether you will or not ) , the chief trouble that i am put to in answering your exceptions ( next to that of my grief for the churches and your self , by reason of such diagnosticks of your malady ) is the naming of your manifold untruths in matter of fact . it is , it seems , no fault in your eyes to commit them ; but i fear you will account it unpardonable bitterness in me to tell you that you have committed them . if i call them mistakes , the reader will not know by that name , whether it be mistakes in point of fact or of reason : and lies i will not call them , because it is a provoking word : therefore untruths must be the middle title . except . i. page 1. t●e whole d●s●●n of this book being ●● make such as at this day are carefull to k●●● themselves pure from al● defilements in false worship . odi●us , it may well be affirmed i● was neither seasonable n●r h●nest — answ. that 's the fundamental untruth which animateth all the r●●● when 〈◊〉 had got a false apprehension of the design of the book , you seem to expound the particular passages by that key . that which you call , the whole design , is not any part of the design , but is expresly and vehemently oft disclaimed and protested against in the book . and whoever readeth it without a partial mind , will presently s●● that the whole design of the book is to deliver weak christians from such mistakes and sins , as destroy their love to other christians , and cause the divisions among the churches . 2. false worship is a word of various sens●● : either it signifieth , 1. idolatry , in worshipping a false god. 2. or the idolatrous worshipping of images , as representations of the true god. 3. or worshipping god by doctrines and prayers that consist o● falshoods . 4. or devising worship-ordinances , and falsly saying they are the ordinances of god. 5. or making god a worship which he forbiddeth , in the sub●●an●e , and will not accept . 6. or worshipping god in an inward sinful manner , through false principles and ends as hypocrites do . 7. or in a sinful outward manner , through disorder , defectiveness , and unhandsome or unfit expre●●ions . o● these , i suppose you will not charge the churches you separate from , as guilty of the first , second , fourth , or sixth , ▪ which is out of the reach of humane judgment ▪ for i suppose you to be sober . as for the third , through gods great mercie , the doctrine of england is so ●ound , that the independants and presbyterians have still offered to subscribe to it in the 39 articles : according to which ( if there were any doubtfulness in ) the phrases of their prayers , ▪ they ▪ are to be interpreted . for the fifth , if you accuse them of it , you must prove it ; which is not yet done ( supposing that you take not government for worship● ; nor can you do it . so that it must lie only on the seventh . and for that ( if you will take the word ▪ false-worship ] in that sense ) do not you also worship god falsly when you worship him sinfully ? and are not your disorders and unmeet expressions sins , as well as theirs ? alas , how oft have i joyned in prayer with honest men that have spoken confusedly , unhandsomly , and many waies more unaptly and disorderly than the common prayer is ? how oft have i heard good old mr. simeon ash say , that he hath heard many ministers pray so unfitly , that he could heartily have wished that they had rather used the common prayer ? when did any one of us pray without sin ? how ordinarily do anabaptists , antinomians , arminians , separatists , &c. put their opinions into their prayers , and so make them false prayers , and so false worship ? nay , could you lay by partiality , and kn●w your self ( a very hard thing ) you would presently see that you who wrote these exceptions , are liker to worship god falsly than they that do it by the liturgie , that is , in the third sense : because the doctrine of the prayers in the liturgie is sound ▪ but if you account this script of yours to be worship ( and why not writing as well as preaching ) or if you put the same things into your worship , which you put into your writings , ( as is very usual with others ) then it is false worship indeed , as consisting of too many falshoods . if you pray to god to encline men against all that communion which you write against , or lament such communion as a sin , this is falser worship than any is in the liturgick prayers . and if you will call all those modes of worship false , which god in scripture hath not commanded , what a false worshipper are you , that use a translation of scripture , a version and tunes of psalms , a dividing the scripture into chapters and verses , yea the method and words of every sermon and prayer , or most , and abundance such like which god commanded not ? god never bid you use the words of prayer in the liturgie ; nor did he ever bid you use those which you used last without it . o brother , if you knew your self , and judged impartially , you would see , that whatever you say against mens communicating with other mens tolerable failings , as false worship , may be as stronglie urged for avoiding communion in disordered prayers that are without book ▪ and much more in the prayers of honest erroneous separatists , anabaptists , antinomians , &c. which yet for my part i will not so easily avoid . i confess if my judgment were not more than yours against dividing from each other in the general , i should be one that should be as forward to disclaim communion with many zealous parties ( now received by you ) and that as false worshippers , as you are to disclaim communion with others . i am sure you worship god falsly , that is , sinfully , every time that you worship him . 3. but , seeing my book disswadeth you equally from unjust avoiding communion with all sound and sober christians ; i ask you , whether all these several parties are false worshippers , save you alone ? did not the presbyterians and independants agree in worship , when you gathered churches out of their churches , and when thousands separated from all the parish churches almost then existent ? indeed the anabaptists charged us also with false worship , but it was not truly . but the ordinary divider● had not that pretense . 4. o how easie a thing is it , brother , for a man , without any supernatural grace , to reproach another mans words in worship , and then to abhor it and avoid it , and think ▪ i am one that keep my self pure from false worship ! but to keep our selves pure from pride , censoriousness , uncharitableness , contention , evil speaking , and sensual vices , is a harder work . others can as easily ( without mortification or humilitie ) keep themselves pure from your false worship as you can do from theirs . except . ib. since the crying sin this day is not separation , but unjust and violent persecution , ( ½ ) which mr. baxter speak●eth very little against . answ. 1. a las , dear brother , that after so many years silencing and affliction , after flames and plagues , and dreadful judgments , after twenty years practice of the sin it self , and when we are buried in the very ruines which it caused , we should not yet know that our own uncharitable divisions , alienations , and separations , are a crying sin ? yea the crying sin ; 〈◊〉 well as the uncharitableness and hurtfulness of others ? alas , will god leave us also , even us to the obdurateness of pharaoh ? doth not judgment begin with us ? is there not crying sin with us ? what have we done to christs kingdome , to this kingdoms ▪ to our friends ( dead and alive ) to our selves , and ( alas ) to our enemies , by our divisions ? and do we not feel it ? do we not know it ? is it yet to us , even to us , a crime intolerable to call us to repentance ? wo to us ! into what hard-heartedness have we sinned our selves ! yea that we should continue in the sin , and passionately defend it ! when will god give us repentance unto life ? 2. and whither doth your passion carry you , when you wrote so strange an untruth as this , that i [ speak very little against it ● ▪ was it possible for you to read the book , and gather exceptions , and yet to believe your self in this ? doth not the book speak against church-tyranny ▪ unjust impositions , violence , and taking away mens liberty and rigor with dissenters , from end to end ? if any man that readeth but the preface ( as page 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , 18. ) and all the second part ( besides much more ) can possibly believe you , i will never undertake to hinder him from believing any thing . 3. but suppose i had said little against it , will you charge me with negatives or omissions before you know my reasons ? or would you have no better people hear of their sin and duty , till persecutors will endure to hear of theirs . exod. 6. 12. behold the children of israel have not hearkened unto me : how then shall , & c. ● saith moses ? have most or many of the separation said more against severities than i have done ? 4. but could you possibly be ignorant that a license is not to be expected for such a discourse as you seem here to expect . you deal by me as the late perswasive to conformity , that vehemently calls to me to publish my reasons for nonconformity , while he knew my hands were tied by the laws and licensers . 5. but what if i had not in this book spoken much against persecution , is it not enough that i have done it in others ? i have not here written on many subjects which in other volumes i have written of . and why should i ? if i had , would you not have blamed me for writing one thing so oft ? but you most unhappily chose this instance for your quarrel , i think in the judgment of all the land , that have read my writings ? besides my five disputations of church government , how oft have i written against persecution ? the few publick sermons that ever i preached , had somewhat against it . read our papers to the bishops in 1660. especially the reply to their exceptions , and the petition for peace . enquire again of the long provoking conference at the savoy , and the reason of the following indignation against me , and afterwards read this book again ; and then i modestly chalenge you 1 , to name those men in england , especially of the separatists , that have said and done more against that severity which you call persecution , than i have done . 2. to name me one licensed book since the silencing of the ministers , and since the printing act , that hath said so much against severity and persecution as the book which you quarrel with hath done . except . ii. mr. b. mentioneth with much bitterness what was formerly done in the time of the war ; which is in him a most unbecoming practice ; because first , mr. b. was as guilty of stirring up and fomenting that war as any one whatsoever : and none ought to blame the effect , who gave rise and encouragement to the cause . answ. 1. if you mean that my words taste bitterly to you , i cannot deny it : you know best : but for my part , any reader may see in the book which the preface referreth to , that i only lament our too open undeniable uncharitableness and divisions , and the effects thereof , and use the mention of some mens former faults with whom they and i can hold communion , to prove by way of argument that they ought not to avoid communion with others for the like or less . and i know not how to convince men well , if i must pass by all such experimental arguments . 2. do you not mark your partialitie , brother ! in our reply to them 1660. pag. 7 , 8. et alibi , and in my 5 disput. &c. i tell the bishops of faults past , of silencings , and suspendings , &c. of the excellent ministers afflicted and laid by ; and how ordinarily are they told of the things charged on bishop laud , pierce , wren , &c. in their articles to the parliament : and when did you blame me or others for so doing ? can i believe that this offendeth you ? and is it sin to tell your selves of your former sins , and none to tell the bishops of it ? o that we could know what spirit we are of . 3. your third untruth in point of fact , is , [ that i was as guilty of stirring up and fomenting that war as any one whatsoever . ] could you possibly believe your self in this ? 1. i suppose you never saw me till above ten years after i had done with wars . 2. i suppose you lived far from me . 3. if you know whom , and what you speak of , you know that i was never of the assembly ; i never preached to the parliament , till the day before the king was voted home : i was forced from home to coventry : there it was that i did speak my opinion , but refused their commission as chaplain to the garrison . in shropshire my father was twice imprisoned , that never did any thing against the king ; nor medled with wars : for two months i did something there to little purpose , and once got my father out of prison , by causing another to be seized to redeem him ; but i never took commission , office , or pay all that time . i never entred into the army till after nas●by fight , and openly declared i went thither for this purpose , to discharge my conscience in dissw●●ing the souldiers from the overturning of the government , and to have turned them from the purpose which i perceived among them , of doing what afterwards they did . if you and others that know not what they talk of , will but ask dr. brian , dr. grew , mr. king , or others , whom assembled , i twice consulted about it , or any survivers of the coventry committee , what business i went on into the army , you will change your mind . and did [ no man whatsoever do more than this . ] what not the parliament themselves ? not any of the chief speakers there ? not any of their acquaintance . what , not any of the other party neither ? not any of the armies , neither of the earl of essex nor of cromwel himself ? how then came the armies on both sides to be raised , and proceed so far in wars , before ever i saw one man of them , to my remembrance , or any parliament man or souldier had ever spake with me , or saw me , or ever had a line of writing from me ? why do you find none of my parliament sermons in print ? 4. but , if indeed i was as guilty as you mention , why is it in me a most unbecoming practice , to blame that which you think i did occasion ? is this good divinity , that it is unbecoming a minister to mention heinous sin with bitterness which we have bin guilty of ? how then shall we repent ? or is repentance an unbecoming thing ? i hope the act of oblivion was not made to frustrate gods act of oblivion , which giveth pardon to the penitent ? doth it forbid us to repent of sin , or to perswade our brethren to repent ? where sin is hated , repentance will not be hated : and if sin were as bitter as it must be , reproof would not be bitter . 5. do you think that you preach sound doctrine , when you say that [ none ought to blame the effects who gave rise and encouragement to the cause . ] if this doctrine be part of gods worship which you offer him , who should be avoided as a false worshipper , that is , a false teacher , sooner than your self ! what a scandal is it to the world , and dishonour to your self , that such doctrine should be found thus under your hand , deliberately delivered ? if this be true , then he that first encouraged the war on either side , must not blame any of the murders , robberies or other villanies therein committed ? then he that hired the french man to set london on fire , must not blame the burning of it . then a man ought not to blame any sin which ever he was a cause of ! then when a man hath once sinned he must despair , and never must repent nor blame his crime . if you had found such doctrine as this in the common prayer book , you would have had a fowler charge against it than now you have , as to doctrinals . which i mention but to shew you , that if we must run away from one another for every thing that is unsound , we shall never have done , and others must avoid you as much as you do them . 6. but your deceit in the word [ that war ] hath a transparent covering . which war is it that you mean ? do you think all that is done in one land , or one age , or by one army , is one war ? where there are several causes , ( especially if also several parties , ) sure they are several wars . the first war was made under the earl of essex , when the commissions run [ for the king and parliament ] . the second war begun under fairfax and cromwell , when [ for the king ] was left out of the commissions . another war was by cromwell against the londoners and parliament , when he garbelled them ( though it came not to blows ) . another war was against the scots army and the english that rose for the kings deliverance . another was in ireland : another in scotland : another between cromwel and the levellers . and many others there were afterwards under several usurping powers ; and do you call all these one ? or which of them do you mean ? 7. i suppose you grosly call the meer consequents , the effects . sure that which was the effect of a later war , might be but the consequent of a former . or else you must say that the parliament raised war against themselves , to pull down themselves , and set up a protector ? this was the consequent of their first war ; but whether the effect i leave to logicians to determine . but by this you may see that you again preach false doctrine . the king may give rise and encouragement to a war , and yet may lawfully blame such consequents as you call effects : what if the kings own army should plunder and murder , and blaspheme and depopulate ; yea , or depose or hurt , or any way injure the king himself ? shall a man that separateth from the liturgie as false worship come and tell us , that the king ought not to blame any of this because he gave rise and encouragement to the war : extremities and passion do thus unhappily use to blind men . 8. but seriously , brother , i beseech you let us review the effects you mention or respect . is it possible for any sober christian in the world to take them to be blameless , or to be little sins . what! both the violating the person and life of the king. and the change of the fundamental government or constitution . and an armies force upon the parliament which they promised obedience to ? first upon eleven members ; next upon the greater part of the house ; and lastly upon the remainder ? the taking down the house of lords ; the setting up a parliament without the peoples choice or consent . the invading and conquering scotland : the making their general protector . the making an instrument of government themselves , without the people . the setting up their second protector . the forcing him to dissolve the parliament . the pulling him down , whom themselves had lately set up . the setting up the remnant of the commons again : the pulling them presently down again : the placing the supremacy in a council of themselves , and their adherents . was all this lawful ? and to do all this as for god , with dreadful appeals to him ? dare you or any man , not blinded and hardened , justifie all this ? if none of all this was rebellion or treason , or murder , is there any such crime , think you , possible to be committed ? are papists insulting over us in our shame ? are thousands hardened by these and such like dealings into a scorn of all religion ? are our rulers by all this exasperated to the severities which we feel ? are ministers silenced by the occasion of it , about eighteen hundred at once , ( even many hundreds that never were in any wars , and such as consented not to this at all . ) are we made by it the by-word and hissing of the nations , and the shame and pitty of all our friends ? and yet is all this to be justified , or silenced ? and name of it at all to be openly repented of ? i openly profess to you , that i believe till this be done , we are never like to be healed and restored ; and that it is heinous gross impenitence , that keepeth ministers and people under their distress : and i take it for the sad prognostick of our future woe , and ( at best ) our lengthened affliction , to read such writings against repentance , and to hear so little open profession of repentance , even for unquestionable heinous crimes ; for the saving of those that are undone by these scandals , and for the reparation of the honour of religion , which is most notoriously injured . to see men still think , that their repentance is the dishonour of their party and cause , whose honour can no other way be repaired ! to see men so blind , as to think that the silencing of these things will hide them , as if they were not known to the world ! that man or party that will justifie all these heinous crimes , and still plead conscience or religion for them , doth grievous injury to conscience and religion : i have told you truly in the book which is bitter to you , that gods way of vindicating the honour of religion , is for us by open free confession , to take all the shame to our selves , that it be not injuriously cast upon religion . and the devils way of preserving the honour of the godly , is by justifying their sins , and pleading religion for them , that so religiousness it self may be taken to be hypocrisie and wickedness ; as maintaining and befriending wickedness . for my own part i thought when i wasted my strength , and hazarded my life in the army against these fore-named crimes , and afterwards preached and wrote against them so openly , and so many years , that i had not been so much guilty of them as you here affirm . but if i was , i do openly confess that , if i lay in sackcloth and in tears , and did lament my sins before the world , & beg pardon both of god and man , and intreat all men not to impute it to religion , but to me , and to take warning by my fall , which had done such unspeakable wrong to christ and men , i should do no more than the plain light of nature assureth me to be my great and needful duty . except . ii. ib. there is daily much greater prophaneness , and the consequent of prophaneness , immorality , acted by those ( 4 ) whom yet mr. baxter never mentioneth but with honour ; as if no sins or miscarriages were to be blamed but theirs , who are unable to defend themselves . answ. 1. if this were true , i were much too blame , it being the very usage of others against my self , which i have great reason to complain of . 2. but if it was possible for you to believe your own words , that i never mention them but with honour , i shall think that there are few things that you may not possibly believe . reader , if thou peruse the book , and yet believe this author , i am not capable of satisfying thee in this , nor will i undertake it in any thing else . are these terms of honour pref. p. 18. [ how long lord must thy church and cause be in the hands of unexperienced furious fools ▪ &c. ] do i honour them when i so much display their sin ? and when in the scheme in the conclusion i describe it ? and when i tell you of many of such ministers , and that it is a duty to separate from them , or disown them . and when in the history of martin , i tell you how neer it i am my self , as to such as martin separated from ? and when i cite gildas , calling such no ministers , but enemies and traytors , &c. were you not very rash in this ? 3. but what if in this book i write neither against the prophane , nor the iews , nor the mahometans ? is it nothing that i have written the greater part of above fifty books besides against them . 4. what if there be prophaneness to be reproved ; doth it sollow that we must not be reproved also ? must we not repent , because they must repent ? 5. o how hard is it to please all men ▪ what man in eagland hath been less suspected to be a flatterer of such as he moaneth than my self ? or more accused of the contrary that hath any reputation of ministerial sobriety ? ask the bishops that conferred with us at the savoy , 1660 ? ask your self that read our reply then ? ask any that ever did converse with me ; whether ever i was suspected of flattery , or dawbing with men sins ? 6. but seeing you so far honour me , as to vindicate me from other mens accusations , i shall confess that it is my judgement , both that we should honour all men , 1 pet. 2. 17. especially our superiors ; and also that in our eyes a vile person should be contemned , while we honour them that fear the lord , psal. 15. 4. except . iii. he alloweth himself a great and masterly liberty , to call his brethren fierce , self-conceited dividers , feaverish persons , &c. answ. if there be none such , or but a few , i will joyfully confess my error ; but if all ages of the church have had such , and if this kingdom have been so troubled by such , as all men know ; and if they yet live in this sin to their own trouble and ours , why should it be contrary to meekness to mention it ? should i hate my brother , in suffering sin to lie upon him . every paragraph almost inviteth me to remember christs words to the two fierie disciples , and to say , o how hard is it to know what manner of spirit we are of . tell me reader , whether this be not true ? that if i had called the bishops sacrilegious silencers of a faithful ministry , murderers of many hundred thousand souls , perjurious , proud , tyrannical , covetous , formal hypocrites , malignant haters of good men , &c. i might not very easily have come off with many of these angry brethren , without any blame for want of meekness ? nay , whether they would not have liked it as my zeal ? when as such a gentle touch upon themselves , doth intollerably hurt them . is there not gross partialitie in this . note also that these brethren that plead for libertie do call it a masterly libertie in me , thus to name their faults . and do you think that they would not have silenced my book , if it had been in their power ? note then whether the silencing imperious spirit , be not common to both extreams . except . ib. he useth the same frothy and unsavoury words , that others prophane prayer and the name of god by , and which at the best , is that foolish talking or jesting which we are commanded not so much as to mention , eph. 5. 3 , 4. answ. the words are [ i am only perswading all dissenters to love one another , and to forbear but all that is contrary to love : and if such an exhortation and advice seem injurious or intolerable to you , the lord have mercy on your souls . ] is the matter of this prayer unlawful ? or can he prove that i spake it jestingly , when i took it to be the serious prayer of my grieved heart ? or may we use no words ( as lord have mercy on us , &c. ) which others use unreverently ? or is it true doctrine , that this is the foolish talk and jesting forbidden , eph. 5 ? what proof is there here of any one word of all this ? except . iv. p. 2. he doth very often and needlesly insist on many things that may tend to advance his own reputation . ▪ the instances are added . answ. 1. i confess , brother , i am a great sinner , and have more faults than you have yet found out . but i pray you note , that all this still is nothing to our controversie , whether we should advise men against church divisions as contrary to love. 2. if a humble physitian may put a probatum to his receipt , and say i have much experience of this or that ; i pray you why may not a humble minister tell england , that i ( and you ) have had experience of the hurt of divisions , and of the healing uniting power of love ? did all the independent church-members whose experiences are printed in a book , take experience to be a word of pride . 3. and is it pride to thank the world for their civilities to me , in mixing comm●ndations , which i disown , with their censures ? what! to confess the remnants of their moderation ( notorious in matter of fact , the truth of which you durst not deny ) in the midst of their many false censures and calumnies . 4. or to tell you how unable i have ●ound back-biters , to prove their accusations in doctrinals to my face ? 5. or to tell you , that some ( even independents ) perswaded me , when i was silenced to write sermons for some of the weaker conformists ( such as are too many youths from the university ) to preach ? where lieth the pride of these expressions ? is it in supposing that there are any conformists weaker than my self ? whether , think you , this brother or i , think meanlier of them ? or set our selves at the greater distance from them ? 6. when i plead against charging forms with [ idolatry ] i say , that for my self [ it is twenty times harder to me to remember a form of words , than to express what is in my mind without them . ] if this be not true , why did you not question the truth of it ? if it be , why is it pride to utter it , as a proof that i plead for love , and not for my own interest ? is it pride to confess so openly the weakness of my memory ? i never learnt a sermon without book in my life : i think i could not learn an hours speech , sufficiently to utter the very words by memory in a fortnights time . and is it pride for a man to say that he can easier speak what is in his mind ? truly brother , i was so far from intending it as a boast , that i meant it as a dimin●tion of the over-valued honour of present extemporary expression , and to tell you , that i take it to be so far from proving that your prayers only are accepted of god , before a form , as signifying more grace , that i take it to be an easier thing for an accustomed man that hath not a diseased hesitancy to speak extempore what is in his mind , than to learn a form without book ; and that they tha● do this , do serve god with as much labour and cost as you do ? do i boast , or do i not speak the common case of most ministers , when i truly say , that when i take most pains for a sermon , i write every word : when i take a little pains i write the heads ; but when business hindereth me from taking any pains , i do neither , but speak what is in my mind ; which i suppose others as well as i , could do all the day and week together , if weariness did not interrupt them . i seek by these words but to abate their pride that think themselves spiritual , because they can pray or preach without book ; like some now neer me , that account it formality and a sign that a preacher speaketh not by the spirit , if he use notes , or preach upon a text of scripture ; but admire one neer them that cries d●wn such , and useth neither . 7. is it pride to say that [ th●se darker persons whom i have been ●ain to rebuke for their over-valuing me and my understanding , would yet as stiffly defend their most groundless opinions against me when i crost them , as if they thought i had no understanding . ] if you do think that you cannot be over-valued , or are not , so do not i. and i thought my rebuking men for it , had been no sign of pride . and , brother , i am confident , if you your self did not believe that my understanding , and consequently my writings are over-valued , you would never have written this book , especially in such a stile against me : yea , in the end you profess this to be your design , to undeceive those that had a good opinion of me . if those on the other side had not thought the same , my late auditors at kederminster had never had so many sermons , and that by persons so high , nor would so many books have been written to the same end even to cure the people of this dangerous vice , of over-valuing me . the matter of fact being so publick , invalidateth your exception . 8. the last expression of my pride is , that i give this testimony even to christians inclined to divisions , that if they think a man speaketh not to the depressing of true and serious religion , they can bear that from him , which they cannot bear from one that they think hath a malignant end : and that on this account in my sharpest reproofs my own auditors have still been patient with me . enquire whether this be true or not ? whether i have not preached twenty times more against divisions , to a people that never once quarrelled with it , than i have written against it in the book with which you so much quarrel . and is this probatum given against malignity a word of pride too ? you proceed in your charge that [ i have great thoughts of my self , and have learned little of christian or moral ingenuity , and am unfit to be a teacher of it to others . answ. 1. do you not yet perceive that you also have a silencing spirit ? when you and those that you separate from are agreed , that we are unfit to be teachers , because we gainsay you , why do you pretend so great a distance , even in the point of imperious severity . 2. o how hard is it still to know our selves , and what manner of spirit we are of . is it pride in me to think that i am righter than you or to express it ? why , brother , do not you think as confidently that you are righter than i ? and do you not as confidently utter it ? i differ no further from you , than you do from me : and why is it not as much sign of pride in you , to think you know more than i , as in me to think that i know more ( in this ) than you ? the truth is , pride is not a true valuing , but an over-valuing our selves , and our own understandings . if either you or i be in the right , and both think our selves confidently to be so , he is the proud person which ever he be , that is in the wrong ; for it is he that over-valueth his own understanding . here therefore the evidence must decide the case . except . v. p. 3. answered . your 5th ▪ exception implieth more untruths : the first is , that i did not consider that fault of the imposers , which i have written in that very book so much against , and elsewhere ; and before , said more against than any man that i know in england , this was not considerately spoken . the second is , that all or most of those that you separate from , made tearing engines and dividing impositions . if this be not implied you speak not to the point . but you may easily know that in all the parish-churches of england , there is not one man or woman , no not one minister of very many that ever made or imposed such engines . the third implied untruth is , that i plead either for subscribing assent , or for such communion as cannot be had , without subscribing assent , to what you know is sinful ; when you may joyn as far as i desire you , without subscribing any assent at all . except . vi. answered . 1. as to the sense of 2 cor. 6. 14 , 15 , 16. and rev. 18. 6. you confess that the texts do directly and properly concern only infidels and idolaters there mentioned . 2. you say it belongs to others that are guilty of the same crimes , under the name of christians , proportionally . answ. very true ; if it be not a contradiction ! if any called christians be notorious infidels and idolaters , they are not christians , and so not fit for christian communion . but from the societies of such we must flie our selves : but not from the societies of christians , alwaies , when some such shall intrude . 3. you say [ we are commanded strictly to separate from every one that is called a brother , if he be covetous , or a railer , &c. answ. the church , and not a private man , must exclude such a one from church-communion . and you your self must exclude him from your private familiarity ; but you are not commanded to separate from the church , if they exclude him not . i am not bound to separate from the church where you are , for this book which you have written , though i could prove it railing . how few separated churches know you on earth , that have no covetous person or railer ? or at least , where the people hold it their dutie to separate from their own church , if any covetous person or railer be there ? 4. you add [ that if notwithstanding all admonition any church will still retain them , we are not to own such a church as a spouse of christ , and therefore must come out of it , &c. answ. 1. i have in that book proved the contrarie by abundant scripture instances ; and in the next exception you your self confess the primitive corruptions , and lay the stress of your separation only on imposed conditions of communion . 2. you give us no proof of this naked assertion . if a scolding woman or a covetous professor be reteined in a church otherwise pure , you are not therefore bound to separate , much less to take it for no church : for that is a true church which hath the true essentials of a church : but so may one that reteineth a covetous man or a scold . ergo — by your rule , you must separate not only from parish churches , but from most of the separated churches that ever i was acquainted with . i find no particular church called a spouse of christ , but the universal only : as a corporation is not a kingdome , but a part of a kingdome . 5. above twenty arguments in my book for infant baptism , shew that you did not truly say , that [ the best argument that all learned men have ever defended it by , is the proportion it hath to circumcision . except . vii . answered . you say that i impertinently recite the corruptions of the scripture churches , to prove that we are not to separate , &c. your reason is [ because many errors in doctrine and life were formerly admitted , yet none of them were imposed as conditions of communion . answ. do you not see that here you seem to deny what you said so confidently in the last exception ? there you say , we must come out , if they will receive such for members after all admonition , and retein them . here you seem plainlie to yield that up , and to lay all on imposed conditions of communion , as if else you could communicate with churches so corrupt . you can bear your own contradiction better than mine . 2. what is imposed on you as a condition to your communion in the doctrine and prayers of the parish churches , but your actual communion it self ? if you will say , that their bad minister , and their imperfect form , is imposed as a condition , because you must be present ; so they may say , that you also impose your imperfect manner and expressions on them , as conditions of their communion in your churches : and thus you are all imposers . except . viii . answered . first you say i said that i [ met with many conscientious professors , &c. that 's your fifth untruth : i said no such thing , but only [ many censorious professors . ] 2. you say , it is hardly possible to believe it . but that is possible to men that use to be more careful of speaking truth themselves , and that are acquainted with the people of england , by such means as conference , which is hardly possible to others . 3. you ask [ ought not such things to be concealed . ] and you abuse scripture to confirm it . but , 1. are you not here partial ? is it your judgement that we should conceal the faults or ignorance , or errors of the bishops , conformists , and parish members ? or be they not commonly multiplied and aggravated ? and yet , must the separatists ignorance and error be concealed . 2. do you desire their repentance and humiliation whose faults you would have concealed ? and do you imitate nehemiah and others of gods servants , that use to confess the sins of all ranks and sorts of men ? 3. do you use in publick humiliations to confess this ignorance of professors or not ? if not , what a kind of humiliation do you make ? if you do , do not you publickly reveal this secret . 4. how grosly are you unacquainted with england that take this for a secret , or for hardly to be believed , when we have congregations and multitudes of such , and the land * and world ringeth of them . 5. do you not thus harden them that charge us with factiousness , when you shew your self so solicitous for the concealment of the ignorance of your party , while you have no such care for others ? 4. but it is your sixth untruth in point of fact , when you say ( with scorn ) [ are not we commanded not to reveal the secret of another , which pious and prudent mr. baxter hath not scrupled to sin against , &c. prov. 25. 9. ] as you abuse the text , which speaketh of an individual person , who is supposed to be hereby injured , because known , so you speak untruly in saying i revealed anothers secrets ; for to pass by , that i reveal not the persons , who are still unknown , it is not true that they were secrets ! when i disputed almost all day with such ( both souldiers and others ) in the publick church at amersham above 20 years ago , was that a secret , which they so fiercely proclaimed ? when i disputed daily almost with such in cromwell's army , was that a secret ? when i disputed with mr. brown ( an army chaplain ) and his adherents for the godhead of christ , in a publick church at worcester , was that a secret ? when i disputed in the publick church at kiderminster with the quakers , was that a secret ? when the said quakers , and many other sects , have come to my house , and have oft assaulted me in many other places openly , and vented their ignorance with fierce revilings and raging confidence , was that a secret ? when i have openly catechized men , was that a secret ? do not all sound protestants believe that they are fundamentals which our quakers commonly contradict , and are ignorant of , especially foxes party , whom smith and major cobbet accuse to deny christ and the resurrection , &c. and are there not assemblies of such in london ? and do not many turn to them of late ? and is that a secret which their books and their assemblies tell the world ? who is it now that is put to shame ? except . ix . answered . i must now answer for what i say against the papists too . i confess they are separatists or recusants too . but le ts hear the charge ? you say [ they are very unweighed and rash words , when he saies [ shew me in scripture or in church history that either there ever was de facto , or ought to be de jure such a thing in the world , as the papists call the church , and i profess i will immediately turn papist ; ] we think none can write thus , but declares a great unsteadiness in his religion ; for none that knoweth church history but can prove that such a church as the romane , hath been neer 1300 years actually in being . answ. 1. my foregoing words are these , [ the pope hath feigned another thing , and called it the church , that is , the universality of christians headed by himself : whereas 1. god never instituted or allowed such a church . 2. nor did ever the universality of christians acknowledge this usurping head . now when you say there hath been [ such a church as the romane ] either you mean what i denied [ such a church as they claim and feign ] and i described ; or only [ such a church as they are , which is another thing . ] if the later , why will you grosly abuse your reader by such a deceit , which tendeth to tempt him unto poperie ? what 's that to my words which you seem to contradict ? but if you mean the former , and indeed contradict me , then 1. you prevaricate in befriending popery . 2. you here set down three more untruths in matter of fact ; 1 ▪ that there hath been neer 1300 years ( or ever was ) such a church ; that is , that the universality of christians did acknowledge the pope for the universal constitutive and governing head. 2. that there is none that knoweth church history but can prove this . 3. that they are very unweighed words , in which i assert what i did . and all this i have given the world full proof of , in my dispute against mr. iohnson the papist , of the visibility of the church . had i not weighed the words , i had not so many years ago so largely proved and maintained them . and i have there fully proved , that the romane church was only imperial , or of the empire ( and the countreys that after fell from the empire ) such as we call national , because under one prince . that de facto , the persians , the abassines , indians , part of armenia , and many other churches or christians , never acknowledged him their constitutive or governing head ; that the emperors who called the general councils had nothing to do with the subjects of other princes , nor used to call them : that the general councils consisted only of the subjects of the empire , ( and those that had been of the empire , ) except one iohannes persidis , and one or two more inconsiderable persons , that no account can be given of , who they were , or how they came thither . godignus himself will tell you enough of the abissines . all the papists in the world are never able to answer this publick evidence of fact , with any sense . mr. iohnson's reply i take not to be worthy of an answer with any man that can make use of an answer ; when his shift is so gross as to instance in the bishops of thracia as out of the empire , and such as they , which every novice in history and geographie can confute . unless i was confuted in ▪ london at a publick play , where ( that you may see who influenceth them ) a tutor in geographie was ( as i am credibly informed ) brought in telling his pupill , that prester iohn's countrey of abassia was of the same latitude with a place in worcester-shire called kederminster . ] now seeing reason forbiddeth me to interpret you as speaking of the church of rome as a sect or party , when i spake of it , as the universality of christians headed by the pope ( your context shewing that it is my words that you gainsay , ) therefore i must number these three also with the rest of your untruths . you adde [ we wonder that any protestant should be found , though but by the equalling of church history to scripture , as if the uncertain tradition of the one , were to be as much accounted of and followed as the divine and infallible revelation of the other . ] answ. 1. because this wonder plainly containeth an affirmation that i do so , i must say that it is your tenth untruth : prove such a word if you are able . 2. it is not true that this historie is uncertain ( though not to be equalled with scripture . ) is the case of a vast empire of aethiopia ( as big yet after the decay saith brierwood , as germany , italy , france and spain ) uncertain , when the world knoweth that they have not had so much as converse with the pope , and at oviedos attempt did not know who he was ? and so of persia , india , &c. if you will needs be so much wiser than your neighbours as to prove all historie uncertain , even that there was a caesar , or a william the conqueror . 1. while you befriend the papists in this one point , you will incommodate them in others , 2. and you will promote infidelitie , by making that historie uncertain by which we know the canonical books of scripture , and that they are delivered down to us the same and uncorrupt . when i had given in few words , a full and plain answer to the papists about our separation from their church , and remembred how many volumes they have troubled the world with , by obscuring our plain and ordinarie answer , i told them , that must have volumes to hide the sense , that if this answer seem not plain and full to them , it is because they understand not christian sense and reason ; and not for want of plainess in the matter , or through defectiveness as to satisfie a reasonable impartial man. this , brother , chargeth this saying , to be [ insolent , and from intolerable pride ] because i dare so charge another with want of christian sense and reason , &c. answ. 1. this is his eleventh untruth . i only named sense and reason objectively , not subjectively . it is not because the answer which i give the papists ( and which protestants commonly give ) is not full and plain , or wanteth sense or reason , but because the papists understand it not . he that hath sense and reason may be hindred from using it aright , by interest , partialitie , and wilful negligences which it is no new thing for protestants to think that papists are too oft guilty of . but how proud am i then , intolerably proud that in several books have maintained that all papists that hold transubstantiation , do make it an article of faith , and necessarie to salvation , flatly to contradict all the senses of all the sound men in the world , that shall judge whether bread be bread , and wine be wine ? how much more insolent a charge is this ? but , brother , popish absurdities have need of a better defence , than to call the adversarie insolent and proud . 2. and is the thing i say true or false ? i prove it true . the answer of the protestants about luther's reformation which i give , is christian● sense and reason : but the papists or any that deny it seriously , and take it not to be plain and full understand it not : ergo they understand not christian sense and reason . that is , in this : for i never said that they understand not christian sense and reason , in any other thing , nor is there the least appearance of such a sense . now if this , brother , will deny either of the premises , he may expect an answer . till then i adde . 3. are not you , brother , by your own censure notoriously insolent and intolerably proud , if this hold good , as well as i ? do you not take all that you say against me ( or some part at least ) to be plain and full , and to be christian sense and reason ? and do you not suppose me to think otherwise of it ? and do you not think that this is because i understand it not ? thus some mens hands do beat themselves . 4. and do you not implicitly charge all or most protestant writers with insolence and intolerable pride as well as me ? do they not all think their reasons against the papists plain and full ( at least some of them : ) and do they not think that the papists denie them because they understand not the christian sense and reason which is in them . 5. and have not all mankind a deficiencie of understanding ? and is it pride and insolence to say so ? 6. but judge of your own spirit by your own rule : do not you think those that you before charged with persecution , and making our dividing engines , and whose communion you think it a duty to avoid , to be such as understand not christian sense and reason in the arguings which i and others have used against them ? and is it not as lawful to think so of the papists ? except . x. answered . i used the phrase of [ local presential communion ] in contradistinction , 1. to the catholick communion of persons absent , which is by faith and love , 2. and the communion by delegates and representatives : and our brother here , 1. calleth this phrase [ insignificant iargon , ] which was not said through any redundancy of sense and reason above othets ; nor do i acknowledge his authoritie in the sentence without his reason . 2. he saith [ unlawful terms are imposed on us ] answ. brother , do you think men must trust their souls on your naked word ? where in all this book have you done any thing , that with an impartial understanding can go for proof , that [ in all the parish churches of england that use the liturgie , that is imposed as a condition of our communion in hearing or praying , which it is not lawful sometimes to do ? ] answer this , as to mr. nie about hearing , and to me about praying ; if you can ? and do not nakedly affirm . 3. you say you do not [ so much separate as forbear communion ] and your reason is [ for we were never of them . ] answ. i take you for a christian and a protestant : are you not so far of us ? is not a member of the same universal church of christ , obliged to hold communion , as he hath a special call or occasion , with more churches than that particular one which he ordinarily joyneth with ? if you purposely avoided and denied communion with all the independent churches in england save one , and wrote to prove it unlawful , i think this were a separating from them , as they are parts of the church universal that are neer you . except . xi . answered . 1. the word sect ( though oft taken but for one party in a division ) was not by me applied to all the names before going , but to the last named only , and such other . 2. i spake nothing at all of the truth or falshood of the censurers words , but of the requitals that censurers have by other mens censures , which may be sharp and passionate , and a rebuke to the censured , and modally culpable , when the words are true . yet i am content to undergo the censure you here cast out of me , rather than to censure , that a papist cannot go beyond a reprobate , unless you do , ( as mr. perkins doth , to make it good , ) be so charitable to all the millions else among them , as not to call them papists , except they practically hold the most pernicious opinions of their councils and divines . i confess i affect none of the honour of that orthodoxness , which consisteth in sentencing millions and kingdoms to hell , whom i am unacquainted with . except . xii . answered . here we have first a meer magisterial dictate without proof , that i speak [ triflingly ] about scandal , and shew how little i understand it . but where 's his reason or confutation ? 2. why all is but this [ paul would not eate flesh rather than he would offend his weak brother , &c. ] judge , reader , whether the bare citing of these words be any proof , that in scripture , scandal is not taken more for tempting , ensnaring , and laying before men an occasion of stumbling , or sinning , than for meer displeasing men , which is the thing that i affirmed . but , sure brother , if you soberly review it , you will find that you deal very hardly with the scripture and the souls of men . first the word [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] which our translators turn [ make to offend ] you read [ offend ] instead of scandalize ; and 2. you bring a text against the truth which i assert , which is as plain for it as can well be spoken . the whole chapter shewing , that [ the weake brother ] that paul speaketh of , was one that [ with conscience of the idol , did eate it as a thing offered to an idol , and their conscience being weak was defiled , ver . 7. 9 , and it is one whose conscience is emboldened ( or confirmed ) to eate those things which are offered to idols , and thereby he may perish , ver . 10 , 11. and it is he that is ( not displeased ) but made to offend . and the scandalizing which paul would avoid is called [ becoming a stumbling to them that are weak , ver . 9. emboldening to that heinous sin , ver . 10. making a brother to offend , v. 13. twice over . is this , think you , displeasing the innocent , or rather , tempting those that are apt to sin , and confirming the faulty . read what dr. hammond saith of their weakness , and what 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth there , and then further tell me ; 1. whether you mean such weak ones that you would not have me offend ? 2. whether those that are most displeased with us for communion in the liturgie , be such as you will say , are most in danger of yielding to sin ? 3. whether you would do as paul doth , call those weak brethren , who to that day did eate in idols temples , and that as a thing offered to idols ? 4. whether paul commanded the corinthians to separate from the church , because such men were in their communion ? 5. whether paul himself in communicating with that church , did not that which you write against ? 6. whether by this rule , we should not take heed most of scandalizing those christians that are aptest to sin ? 7. whether this text , which you so abuse , well considered , is not sufficient against all your cause , and for that which i maintain ? except . xiii . p. 6. answered . here is nothing but , 1. his saying that he may well doubt of the truth of what i report , viz. whether any ( or many ) faithful ministers would so reproach their people , and their honourable name which is upon them , as to call them pievish and self conceited christians . ] answ. 1. are there any such christians or not ? 2. if they are , should their fault be healed or cherished ? 3. if healed , should it be reproved or concealed ? but i will answer this further anon , when it comes in again . 2. he doubts not but those that thus complained to me expected so much prudence and faithfulness in me as to conceal their complaints , and not vent them now when the state of affairs is so much altered . answ. here are two untruths implied : 1. that these complaints were only made in secret , with an expectation that not only the persons , but the case it self should be concealed . but how did he know this ? might not many of them be men that since conform , and make the same complaint now openly ? yes , i could name you more than one such ? might not some be such as have done the same in print themselves ? yes , old mr. rob. abbot was one , who after removed to austins london , and died there , before mr. ash. if you will but read his book against separation , you will see thathe silenced not such matters , but hath said more than ever you are able well to answer . 2. it is not true that these complaints were only made before the state of affairs was altered ; for i have oft heard it since , with greater sense of it than ever before . nor is it any dishonour to a minister , not to be ignorant of satans wiles : the more they know them , the liker they are to overcome them . 3. in his conclusion are two more mistakes , but because they are prophetical , i will not count them with the grossest . the first is , that he hopes that hereafter all that fear god will be very careful how they make any complaint unto a person , ( the second ) who will take the next worst occasion to revile a whole innocent and godly party by a malicious publishing of it : whereas , 1. since the writing of his book i have had complaints against such as he , by many that fear god ; 2. and he cannot prove what he prophesieth i will do . but yet two more untruths are implied in the prophesie . 1. that i will revile a whole innocent , godly suffering party , when i protested i meant no particular party , but those of every party , episcopal , presbyterian , independent , anabaptist , &c. who through want of love are aptest causelesly to condemn their brethren and avoid them ( unless he will call all the ignorant , proud , and uncharitable of all parties , by the name of a whole godly suffering party . ) 2. that i will revile them maliciously ; unless he mean that writing for love and unity is a malicious act against satan and his kingdom . except . xiv . ( hereafter i must number them , for he is weary of it ) answered . this hath little worthy observation , but his 12th . untruth , viz. that [ by mentioning the separatist as a distinct body of men , from the antinomian , quaker , and anabaptist , it is evident i can mean no other , but my presbyterian and congregational brethren ] which he follows with an appeal to god against this slanderer , and earnestly prayeth that he would please to rebuke him . whether this earnest prayer be a curse ? and whether it be like to that rule , to pray for them that curse us , and whether this brother himself doth not in these very words put his error into his earnest prayer , even in print , and so verifie what he would so vehemently gainsay ( to say nothing of the common fame in london , that he that is famed to be the author of these exceptions , kept a day of humiliation about me and my book ) i leave to the readers observation . and also whether this earnest prayer ( or curse ) and this bold appeal to god , be not prophane , and rather a fruit of passion , than charitable zeal ? and whether he here knew what spirit he was of ? but to his untruth i answer , 1. i protested openly that my meaning was not what he affirmeth it to be ; and could he know it better than i ? 2. an antinomian and anabaptist as such , are distinct from separatists as such : but doth it follow that therefore they may not be separatists also that are antinomians and anabaptists ? though the errors whence the sects are denominated be various . 3. i have long ago in many books told the papists that i mean them , as the chief schismaticks and sect ; and dr. hide for the first page of his book , what i thought of him ; and the lutherans that so resist all the endeavours of dury , calixtus , bergius , lud. crocius , and many more , in refusing communion with the calvinists , that i mean them ; and here i profess that i mean no other party of men at all , but the dividers of all parties whatsoever , even in the beginning of my preface ; and yet , alas , brother , did you not tremble first to publish so gross an untruth , and when you had done , to ground your appeal to god , and earnest prayer against me , upon it ? the lord give you a meeker spirit , and a tenderer conscience . and that i mean not an independent as such ( for the presbyterians will not suspect me ) i will stop your mouth with this sufficient proof , 1. that the chief independants have written excellently against separation , as mr. iacob by name ; and they pretend that mr. bradshaw and dr. ames were independants . 2. that i rejoyce in the state of the churches of new england , since the synods concessions there , and good mr. eliots propositions for synodical constant council and communion of churches , as much as in any churches state that i hear of in the world , ( though as to the form of government , my judgement most agrees with the waldenses , or bohemian , published by lascitius and commenius ; ) especially since the magistrates late printed order , that all the ministers shall take especial care to catechize and personally instruct all the people under their charge , even from house to house ; at least 3 or 4 families meeting together , &c. which i much rejoice in . it is evident then , that though a man may be a divider , that is episcopal , presbyterian , independant or anabaptist , yet as such as their denominations signifie , i mean none of them ; for many of all these names are no dividers ( though a papist is so by the essence of his religion , un-churching all beside his sect. ) and if you had done me but common justice , you would have noted , that in my scheme in the end , the second proposition of the way of love which i plead for is in these words ; [ love your neighbours as your selves : receive those that christ receiveth ; and that hold the necessaries of communion , be they episcopal , presbyterian , independants , anabaptists , arminians , calvinists , &c. so they be not proved heretical or wicked . ] judge now of your truth and charity by these evidences . except . xv. p. 8. answered . here is the 13th . visible untruth , he saith [ he speaks very slightly of prayer in comparison of study , for the attaining of wisdome , calling it too cheap a way , which sheweth you how little he understandeth the nature of true prayer , ] &c. answ. i love you the better for your zeal for the honour of prayer , though i had rather knowledge and truth had guided it . reader , i intreat thee to peruse my book , and if thou find there what he saith , condemn me more than he doth , and spare not . i tell those men that will do nothing for knowledge but ask for it , that [ god hath not promised you true understanding upon your prayers alone , without all the rest of his appointed mea●s ; nor that you shall attain it by those means as soon as you desire and seek it ; for then prayer would be a pretence for laziness , &c. that praying is but one of the means which god hath appointed you to come to knowledge by ; diligent reading hearing , and meditation and counsel of the wisest is another . ] and will any christian deny the truth of this except the enthusiasts ? or should any godly minister rise up against it ? is any of this true ? 1. that i have here one word of comparing prayer and study ? 2. or that i prefer study or reading , or other means before prayer ? 3. or that i speak lightly of prayer in comparison of the other ? 4. or that i make prayer it self an easie thing ? is not this , that i call his 13th . untruth , composed of many ? when it is visible , that i put prayer first , that i only say that it is but one means , and not all ; and that others must be added , and that praying alone without other labour is too easie a way ? what should one answer to such dealing as this ? i beseech you , brother , preach not the contrary whatever you think , lest you justifie the silencers , while you blame them ? and if really you are against my words , satisfie the world by experience , how many you ever kn●w that came to the understanding but of the articles of faith , or the decalogue or catechism , or christianity it self ( that i say not to your degree of knowledge above me and such as i , ) by prayer alone , without hearing , reading , meditation , or conference . and why paul bids timothy give himself to reading , and meditate on these things , and give thy self wholly to them ? and why hearing and preaching are so much urged ? and whether it be any great fault to silence you and me and all the preachers in the land , if prayer be the only means of knowledge ? and whether you do not before you are aware still agree with them whom you most avoid , who cry up church-prayers to cry down preaching ? and why you wrote this book against me , if your earnest prayers against me , and the people , be the only means ? and when you have done , i can tell you of many papists and others , that you your self suppose never pray acceptably , who have come to a great deal of knowledge : though there be no sanctified saving knowledge ( after the first conversion ) without prayer . i am sorry you put me to trouble the reader about such things as these . it follows [ neither doth solomon direct to any other way principally , &c. ] answ. did i speak one word of the principality , or which was the principal way ? did i not put prayer first , and other means next ? this is not well , brother ; truth beseemeth our calling , and our work . and yet he that said , i was found of them that sought me not , in my opinion , which yet expecteth your reproach ) doth give so much knowledge as is necessary to mens first faith and repentance and conversion by the hearing or reading , or considering of his word , ordinarily to them that never first asked it by sincere prayer ; for i think that faith go●t● before a believing prayer . you adde we cannot but wonder that any dares so expresly go against the very letter of scripture , — but that we have done with wondering at mr. baxter's boldness . answ. this i may well put as your 14th . untruth . reader , try if you can find one syllable of what he speaks in all my book ? doth he that saith [ prayer is but one of the means ] contradict the letter of iam. 1. 5. if any man lack wisdome , let him ask it of god ? o how hard is it to know what spirit we are o● ? that a man should go on in such dealing as this ? and make his own fictions the ground of such tragical exclamations when he hath done ? yea , he proceed . for what follows in justification of his unwarrantable conceit exceeds all bounds of sobriety , — whither will not pride and overweening carry a man ? he that had so trampled upon his brethren without any regard to their innocency or sufferings , now speaks but slightly of our lord christ himself . ] answ. your anger i pass by ; i like you the better for speaking against pride : for by that you shew that you love it not under that name . but still how hard is it to know our selves ? i am sorry , 1. that you are so sore and tender as to account it trampling on you , to be intreated to love your brethren , and not ●o divide the church of god. 2. and that you say , he regardeth not your sufferings , who suffereth with you , and writeth so much as that book containeth against your sufferings . 3. and that you should call that your inno●ency , which i have proved so largely to be against the new and great commandement , and when you make so poor an answer to the proof . i might number these with your untruths , but that i will choose out the grosser sort ; such as is the next ( 15th . untruth ) that i speak slightly of christ. is it slighting christ to speak the words and undenied truth of scripture ? two things i say of christ ; 1. that he increased in wisdom in his youth ? do you not believe that to be true ? surely mr ieanes in all his writings against dr. hammond of that point , did never deny it . 2. that he would not enter upon his publick ministry till he was about 30 years of age ? do you not believe that also ? what then is here that is a slighting of christ ? the reason of this later which i humbly conjecture at ( and elsewhere express ) is , that he might be an example to young men , not to venture and enter too early upon the ministry . the reason you alledge from num. 4. 2 , 3. i gainsay not , though i think it far fetcht ( that christ must not enter sooner upon his publick ministry in his extraordinary office , because the sons of co●ah were numbred from 30 years to 50. ) but you insinuate another untruth , yea express it while you flatly say , i insinuate , that christ staid till 30 years old , that he might be more perfect in wisdome : i had no such word or thought . my following words [ it had been easier for christ to have got all knowledge by two or three earnest prayers than for any of us ] refer only to the first clause , ( of his growth in wisdom ) and not at all to the later ( of the time of his ministry . ) but you deny that christ had any addition of wisdom , except as to manifestation , i believe gods word ! and with others he will be as pardonable that believeth it , as he that denyeth it . i did not expound it : but if i must , i will. i think that according to the present frame of humane nature , the incorporate soul receiveth the several objects it must know ab extra , by the fantasie , and that by the senses , and that our acts of knowing exterior things are as philosophers affirm , objectively organical , though not efficiently and formally , that is , that the intromission by the senses and phantasie , is necessary to the right stating of the object , and therefore that in all those acts of knowledge which christ exercised as other men do , 1. the object , 2. the organical capacity and aptitude of the body were necessary ( not to the perfection of his humane soul , in essence , power , virtue , inclination , disposition , but only to the act of knowing . and so i think christ when new born knew not actually as a man , all that he aft●r knew ; no , nor long after ; and that he increased in actual knowledge , 1. as objects were presented , 2. and as the organs increased in capacity and aptitude , and no● otherwise . yet i believe that christ prayed before his organs and actual knowledge were at the highest , and that he could ( had it been his fathers will and his own ) by prayer have suddenly attained their perfection ; and that culpable imperfection he never had any , nor such as is the effect of sin in infants now . if this be an error , help me out of it by sitter means than reviling . you adde that christ needed not prayer for himself , but as a pattern to us , &c. answ. christ had no culpable need , nor as god any natural need . but , brother , take heed of the common error of them that think they can never say too much or do too much , when they are once engaged ; for this is but undoing . 1. do you think that christs humane nature was not a creature ? 2. do you think that all creatures are not dependant on the creator ? and need him not ? 3. do you think christs humane nature needed not divine sustentation in existence , life , and motion , and divine influx or communication hereunto , seeing that in god we live , and move , and be ? 4. do you think that christs body needed not created means ? as the earth , the air meat and drink , and sleep and rest ? and that he needed not drink , when it is said , he thirsted , ioh. 19. 28. i thirst . and ioh. 4. 6. [ being wearied with his journey , &c. ver . 7. give me to drink . ] whether he needed not cloathing , and needed not ordinary bodily supplies , when it is said , that some ministred to him of their substance , luke 8. 3. as our father knoweth that we have need of all these things , mat. 6. 8. 32. so i think that christs humane nature needed them ; and that he gave not thanks at meat for his disciples only ; and that he bid them speak nothing but the truth , when he said mat. 21. 3. mar. 11. 3. luke 19. 31. the lord hath need of him . and that it was for himself that he prayed three times that the cup might pass , if , &c. ( though for our instruction ) luke 22. 44. matt. 26. 42. 44. heb. 5. 7. wh● in the daies of his flesh , wh●n he 〈◊〉 offered up prayers and s●ppli●ati●ns with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death , and was heard in that he feared ; though he was a son , yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered , and being made perfect , &c. ] i believe that when he was on the cross he needed deliverance , and when his body was in the grave it needed the divine power for to effect his resurrection . and how a man would have been formerly judged of that had denyed any of this . you may learn by the severities of many councils against the eutychians , nestorians , monothelites , &c. i am so regardful of your sufferings that i would not put your mind to any needless grief ; but yet i heartily wish your r●pentance , not only for your errors , but that you should let out your ( unknown ) spirit to such vehemency in your revilings upon such pittiful grounds , as when you adde ▪ [ so that to speak so lesseningly of prayer and christ , to undervalue so much the unspeakable usefuln●ss the of one , and the incomprehensible majesty of the other , becomes very well the spirit that mr. baxter writes with . ] this is but a repetition of untruths . except . xvi . p. 9. answered . having dir. 27. given five proofs by which i knew many to be mistaken that expound texts of scripture , by the impressions on their own spirits , i said dir. 28. [ it is very ordinary with poor fanciful women and melancholy persons , to take all deep apprehensi●ns for revelations ; and if a text come into their minds , to say , — this text was brought to my mind , and set upon my spirit , as if nothing could bring a text to their minds but some extraordinary motion of god ? and as if this bringing it to their mind , would warrant their exposition . ] whereupon i advise men to know the necessity of the spirits ordinary sanctifying work , and not to despise mens pretences of revelation ; but yet to believe none against scripture . as to the ground of this passage , it is such as is not disputable with me , being matter of sense ; ( so impossible is it for me to escape all the heinous accusations of this brother . ) it is not many years since i have had several persons with me ( two or three out of one county ) that brought me books written for the press , and urged me to procure them printed and shewed to the king , in which were abundance of scriptures abused to many daring predictions of things presently to come to pass , and all upon pretence of visions and revelations , and the setting of such an exposition on their hearts : and the men were ignorant , melancholy , and craz●d persons , and the scriptures almost all fal●ly interpreted , and the predictions fail . and all of them had the fifth monarchy notion without conference ( that i could learn ) with any about it . when i lived in coventrey , major wilkies a learned scot , lived in the house with me , who professed to have lived many years in a course of visions and revelations , and had abundance of texts set upon his heart , and expounded to him by vision , most for the millenary way , and for prophecies about our times and changes , ( and some against preciseness ) many of his expositions were considerable : some palpably false : some of his predictions came to pass , and some proved false : he was of a hot melancholy temper , and as i heard , after distracted . if this brother had known how many ( if not many score ) of deeply melancholy persons have been with me , that have had some of them prophecies , most of them almost in desperation , and some of them comforted by such or such a text , brought to their mind , which was of a quite different sense , and impertinent to that which they fetcht from it , and some of their collections contrary to the rest ; he would take heed of doing gods spirit so much wrong as to father poor crazed peoples deliratio●s on it ? and this is as common , i think , among the papists themselves , that meddle less with scripture than we do : what abundance of books be there , of the phantasmes of their fryers and nuns , as prophecies , visions , and revelations , which the judicious reader may perceive are but the effects of melancholy and hysterical passions , improved by ignorant or deceitful priests . but what is the charge against me here ? why he saith [ he calls them poor fanciful women , and melancholy persons , that ordinarily receive comfort by suggested texts of scripture . ] answ. this is the 16th . visible untruth . indeed here are are two gross untruths together . 1. he changeth the subject into the predicate , and then affirmeth me so to have spoken . i said [ it is ordinary for such fanciful and melancholy persons , to take deep apprehensions for revelations , and if a text come into their mind , to think it is by an extraordinary motion of the spirit . and he feigneth me to say , that they that ordinarily receive comfort by suggested texts are melancholy . is it all one to say , it is ordinary for melancholy persons to pray , to fear , to erre , &c. and , they that ordinarily pray , fear , erre , are melancholy . ] again , brother , this is not well . 2. he feigneth me to speak of them that [ ordinarily receive comfort ] when i have no such word , but speak of them that would draw others into error and separation by confident asserting false expositions of scripture as set on their mind by revel●tion from the spirit . this is not well neither . he addeth [ if this be not to sit in the chair of scorners , what is ? ] this needeth no answer . [ for ( saith he ) is not this the very language of holy men ; answ. alas , brother , how impertinent is your question ? the question is , whether this be the language of no melancholy person ? or of none but holy men ? and that as holy ? is it not the language of many ● popish nun and fryer that pretend to revelation ? have not i heard it with these ears from multitudes in melancholy and other weakness that have perverted the texts which they alledged ? have i not read it many books of experiences ? is he a scorner that saith , that a man may speak the same words mistakingly in melancholy which another speaketh truly ? do you well , brother , to trouble the world at this rate of discourse ? for charges on me , i pass them by . and for his saying that the bare recital of their usual words is fitter for a iester than a judicious divine , and when he hath done , to be so angry that they be not all ascribed to gods spirit , i will not denominate such passages as they deserve , lest i offend him . lest you deny belief to me , i intreat you and the reader to get and read a book published by mr. brown ( as is uncontrolledly affirmed , who lately wrote against mr. tombes against the lawfulness of communion in the parish churches ) concerning the experiences and strange work of god on a gentlewoman in worcester ( whom i will not name , because yet living , and god may recover her , but is there well known . ) this gentlewoman having been long vain , and a constant neglecter of publick worship , was suddenly moved to go into the church while i was there preaching ( on rom. 6. 21. ) the very text struck her to the heart ; but before the sermon was done she could hardly forbear crying out in the congregation : she went home a changed person ; resolved for a holy life . but her affection ( or passion ) being strong , and her nature tender , and her knowledge small ▪ she quickly thought that the quakers lived strictlier than we , and fell in among them . at last perceiving them vilifie the ministry and the scripture , her heart smote her , and she forsook them , as speaking against that which by experience she had found to do her good ; and desiring to speak with me ( who lived far off , ) opened this much to me . but all these deep workings and troubles between the several waies , did so affect her , that she fell into a very strong melancholy ; insomuch that she imposed such an abstinence from meat upon her self , that she was much consumed , and so debilitated as to keep her bed , and almost famished . mr. brown ( and others ) were her instructers , who were very zealous for the way called the fifth monarchy , and having instructed her in those opinions , published the whole story in print ( which else i would not have mentioned ) i shall say nothing of any thing which is otherwise known , but desire the reader that doth but understand what melancholy is , better than the writers did , to read that book , and observe with sorrow and pitty , what a number of plain effects of melancholy , as to thoughts , and scriptures , and actions , are there ascribed to me●r temptations on one side , and to gods unusual or notable operations on the other side ! in the end he saith [ and indeed when a soul oppressed with sorrow before , shall suddenly find ease , by having some scripture brought to their mind which before they thought not of if this be not the spirits work as a comforter , we shall be alwaies doubtful how aad when he performeth that office ; which way of doubting mr. baxter's divinity leads into , which sufficiently shews , it is not of god : for god calls us to hope perfectly , and to rejoyce in the hope . answ. the divinity which i think true and sound , doth teach enthusiasts , whether fryers or nuns , or any such phanatick , not to believe every spirit , but to try the spirits whether they be of god ; and to believe that satan can transform himself into an angel of light ; and to doubt whether their suggestions , revelations or prophecies be of god , till it be true and sure : for instance , i would have had your fellow prisoner have doubted of his three after mentioned prophecies uttered in the pulpit , as from the spirit of god ( that we should have no more king , tythes , or taxes : ) be not angry with me for giving you such instances ; it is only to save others from wronging the holy ghost , and exposing religion to profane mens scorn . and i would not have one turn anabaptist , if in their sorrow or musing that text should be set upon their mind , act. 22. 16. why tarriest thou , arise and be baptized , and wash away thy sins . ] nor would i have another turn papist , if that text be set upon his heart , act. 9. 6. arise and go into the city , avd it shall be told thee what thou must do : and if it be a popish priest that he ●irst me●teth with , and think●●● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 th● m●n that must inform ●im . i wo●●d not 〈…〉 ember of any church , upon an insufficient reason separate from it , if that text be se● upon his heart , come out of her my people , &c. or ● cor. 6. 17. come out from among them , and be y● separate , &c. nor would i 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hypocri●●●r ungodly person con●lude himself to be sincere ▪ if that text do suddenly come into his mind ( how affectingly soever ) ioh , 1. 47. behold an israelite indeed in whom is no guile . nor would i have an upright doubt●●g christian conclude himself an hypocrite 〈◊〉 that text come into his mind , act. 8. thy heart is not right in the sight of god , &c. i think that there is somewhat else besides the sudden coming into our minds , and the deepes● affecting of us , that is necessary to prove the true meaning of a text , and the soundness of our conclusions from it . and yet i never doubted but that the spirit doth both cause our comfort , and our resolutions and other gracious effects , by bringing forgotten texts to our remembrance . but the way that i think the spirit cureth our doubting by , is all these things following set together . 1. supposing that he hath infallibly guided the writers of the scripture . 2. and hath set to it the infallible seal of god ( which is the impress of his power , wisdome , and goodness . ) 3. and that he helpeth ministers to preach this gospel to us . 4. he next doth help us to remember , and to understand it ; and no false exposition is from the spirit of god : and he hath left us sufficient means to discern ( as far as is necessary to our salvation and our comfort ) whether it be rightly interpreted or not . 5. and he helpeth us firmly to believe the truth of it : and of the unseen glory which it promiseth . 6. and hereby he kindleth in us repentance , hope , and love , and reneweth both soul and life to the image of god , and the example of jesus christ. 7. and then he helpeth us to act or exercise all this grace . 8. and he helpeth us to discern the sincerity of it : and and so by the spirit we know that we have the spirit , and have the witness of christ , and the seal of god , and the pledge , earnest , and first fruits of eternal life within us , whilest the spirit doth make known himself to be in us . and all true signs of sanctification , or the divine nature in us , are signs of this in-dwelling sealing spirit : but so are not the sudden passions , and fancies , and change of parties , sides , or by opinions , or strong conceits unproved , from whence some use to fetch their comforts . 9. and next he helpeth us hereupon to make a true application of the promise of justification and salvation to our selves : having before applied or received it by faith and consent , and being iustified , he helpeth us to apply it to our assurance and setled hope and comfort ; and to argue , there is no condemnation to them that are in christ iesus , that walk not after the flesh but after the spirit : but i am in christ iesus , and i walk not after the flesh but after the spirit ; therefore there is no condemnation to me . 10. next the same spirit exciteth actual hope and ioy in the soul , by the said application of the promise ; that we shall not only conclude from it , that we have pardon and right to heaven in jesus christ , but also shall have the will and affections duly moved with that conclusion . 11. and the same spirit helpeth us to answer all the false cavils of satan , the world , or our misgiving hearts , which rise up against this hope and comfort . 12. and lastly he helpeth us in the use of all those holy means , by which this hope and comfort is to be maintained , and helpeth us against the sins that would destroy it , and so keepeth it in life , and exercise , and perseverance , till we finally overcome . by all these twelve acts together the spirit causeth the hope and comfort of believers , and saveth them from their doubts and sorrows . and now , brother , when you can calmly think of it , i should be glad that you would consider , whether to say this divinity leadeth to doubting , and that it is not of god , be not , 1. an untruth , 2. an injury to him whom you calumniate , 3. an injury to the souls of men that must be thus comforted , 4. and an injury to god , by telling the world , that his own doctrine is not his own , and by feigning gods truth to be mans error . and whether your way here opened ( by receiving sudden comfort by a remembred text ) be sounder doctrine ? and be not such a way as papists , quakers , and most deluded people commonly boast of ? and if you bring poor souls no better directions for their full assurance , peace and joy , whether in the end you will not prove a miserable comforter ? except . xvii . p. 10. answered . when i say that i wonder at men that think god maketh such a matter as they do of their several words and forms , as that he loveth only extemporate prayers and hateth forms , or loveth only prescribed forms and hateth extemporate prayers by habit , ] he saith this is ▪ as if i could never speak meanly enough about prayer . but , brother , if you kindle this burning zeal your self , by teaching men to hate either forms or praying by habit ; marvel not if it burn you , within and without ; and when your own passions have scorched you , other mens hatred of your prayers , as you hate theirs , do trouble you also . and if you hate the quenching of these fires , even when the churches by them are all on a flame , as sober ▪ men as you will be of another mind , i tell you again , brother , you greatly wrong and dishonour god , if you think that he layeth so much upon that which he never gave any law about , or spake one word for or against , as to tell the world that he hateth all prayer that is put up by a form or book . and that he that denyeth this , speaketh meanly of prayer . the lord teach you to know what manner of spirit you are of , ( which request i shall reit●rate for you , instead of praying with your earnestness , the lord rebuke him . ▪ have you the bowels of a christian , and the spirit of christian love and unity ▪ and can you think that god hateth ( for that was my word ) all the prayers of all the churches and christians in the world , that use a form ? even of all the greek churches , the armenians , abassines , jacobites , syrians , cop●ies , lutherans , and calvinists ; of all the english publick churches ; and the prayers of such holy men as dr. preston , dr. sibbes , mr. perkins , mr. hildersham , mr. cartwright , dr. stoughton , mr. whateley , mr. bolton , and all such as they that used some the li●urgie , and some other forms ? and that god hateth the prayers of all christian families and christians that use a form ? do you dislike adding to god's word , and will you adde to it so boldly , as to say , he hateth that which he never once forbad ? if you would make your reader think that i make god indifferent to all modes and words in prayer , you would abuse him : for though i never heard a man swear in prayer , i think you curse in prayer a little before ; and i have heard many rail in prayer , and traduce men for truth and duty , and vent their own errors . but i beseech you promote superstition no more , and feign no divine laws which you cannot shew us ? and teach not this unhappy age to feign things necessary that are not , and paint out the most holy gracious god , as the patron of every one of their fancies . your words [ doth not god regard the manner of our addressing our selves to him ? must we not pray in the spirit ? ] do still make me pray , that you may know your spirit . do you well to intimate that i say the contrary ? when i maintain that god so far accepteth them that worship him in spirit and truth , that he will accept their prayers , with a form or without , and hateth neither ; yea ; hath left both indifferent , to be varied as mens occasions and use for either vary , as he hath done a form or notes in preaching . it is an easie thing to turn formalist either way , by thinking god loveth our prayers either because they are in the same words , or in various words . the second part of this exception calleth me [ a trifler , that doth neither believe the scripture nor himself , but tries to abuse , &c. ] because i say about a liturgie , 1. certainly in christs time , both liturgies by forms , and prayers by habit were used . 2. that it is like that the pharisees long liturgie , was in many things worse than ours ; and yet christ and his apostles oft joyned with them , and never condemned them . ▪ answ. 1. let the reader observe whether ever christ , his apostles , or the pharisees medled with the controversie about the lawfulness of forms ? whether ever christ condemned them ? 2. let the reader note that when i say that certainly forms were used , i say not , whether in the synagogue or temple , or house , nor do i say that they were other forms than divine ? but when i say that it is like in many things the pharisees liturgie was worse than ours , i mean that it is like ( though not certain ) that part of it was of humane invention , and used publickly . and , 1. the word liturgie ( as martinius and other etymologists agree , hath three significations , 1. the largest is , for any publick office of ministry , and specially of distribution . 2. for the publick service of god , in reading , teaching , praying , &c. 3. for stated orders and forms of that publick service , to which bellarmine addeth a 4th . as the narrowest sense of all , viz for the sacrificing offices only ; which is no usual sense . now the second and third being the now-common sense , i thought there had been no question about them . that the jews had a divine liturgie in both senses ( as a service , and as a prescript form ) i proved in my 5th . disput. of liturgies many years ago . 1. in the temple they had most punctual prescripts for their sacrifices of all sorts , and their offerings ; and the manner of performance , and the actions of priests and people about them . in the synagogues moses and the prophets were read every sabbath day ! and the psalms were purposely penned ( many of them ) and recorded to be prayers and praises for the publick and private worship , and were committed to several church-officers to be publickly used : and david and solomon appointed the instruments , singers , and order & manner in which they should be used . a form of prayer for the priests is prescribed in three benedictions , numb . 6. 23. hezekiah commanded the levites to sing praises to the lord with the words of david and of asaph the s●●r , 2 chron. 29. 30. 1 chron. 16. 7. [ on that day david delivered first this psalm to thank the lord into the hands of asaph and his brethren , exod. 15. the song of moses is a form . and rev. 15. 3. the saints are said to sing the song of moses and of the lamb. most expositers think that the hymne that christ sung at his last supper , was the usual form : if not , it was a new form . moses form at the moving and resting of the ark is set down , numb . 10. 35 , 36. deut. 21. 7 ▪ 8. there is a form for the people to use , iudg. 5. deborahs song is recorded : so is hannahs praise , 1 sam. and ioel 2. 17. there is a form for the priests in their humiliation : and iohn taught his disciples to pray ; and when christ was desired to teach his disciples as iohn had done his , he gave them a form . now let the sober reader judge whether the jews had no form or liturgie of god's appointment . if he say , i thought you had meant a humane form ; i answer , if you will think that which i say not , and choose rather to revile , than observe what you ●ead , i cannot help it . 2. when i speak of a probability afterward , i do mean of a humane liturgie : of which i will now only say , 1. that it seemeth very improbable to me that the pharisees who so abounded with traditions , should not so much as have any humane forms of prayer or praise . 2. when christ speaketh of their long prayers , i desire them on both extreams to consider , that , if it was a long liturgie , they should not compare the puritane to the pharisee in his long prayers as they use to do , but to others . but if they were extemporate prayers , 1. to one side i say , that if christ had been against extemporate praying , he would have put that into his rebukes : 2. to the other side i say , if the pharisees had the gift of long extemporate prayers , we must take heed of over-valuing such a gift , and ascribing it too much to the spirit , so that the pharisees long prayers , as a two edged sword , cut both extreams in this pievish controversie . 3. this controversie whether the iews had a liturgie , is handled so largely by mr. selden , that i must refer the reader to him that would see what is said for the affirmative , in eutych . alexandr . pag. 35 to p. 63. where he shews that till ezra's time there was none but the scripture liturgie ; and that in ezra's time eighteen prayers were made ; and shews how far they might or might not adde : where having cited abundance of rabbins , he shews that however the jewish rabbins are fabulous , these historical testimonies are our best means of information , and are credible , and addeth the words of ios. scaliger , [ hic fuit vetus ritus celebrationis paschae temporibus messiae : quod vetustissimi canones in digestis talmudicis manifesto probant : nisi quis eos neget antiquos esse ; quod idem ac si quis capita papiniani , pauli , ulpiani , & aliorum iurisconsultorum in digestis iustiniani producta neget esse eorum iurisconsultorum quorum nomine citantur ; quod nemo sanus dixerit . except . xviii . p. 10. answered . here you except against me , if for any thing ▪ for [ being grown so scrupulous and so tender as to be offended , if any break jeasts upon common prayer . ] answ. 1. i spake of jesting on both sides at one anothers devotions , and not of one alone . 2. if you are for that way of breaking jeasts and scorns at other mens prayers , with what measure you mete it will be meted to you again . they will requite you to the full with jeasts and scorns at yours also . 3. brother , do you like this way , or do you not ? if you do , what a spirit are you of ? if you do not , why do you quarrel with this advice and whereas you cite my own words in the reply to the bishops , i must tell you ; 1. that i know nothing in any of those papers or treaty , as to the matter that i have changed my judgement in , or repent of . and i admire that the prelates that ask so often [ what will satisfie us ? ] and others that carry it to the world as if we had said nothing , should to this day leave that reply and our liturgie then offered them , and our petition for peace , so much unanswered ; which few that knew them will believe is for want of will and fervour or indignation against them ? 2. that yet the sentence cited by you [ whether it be that the common-prayer-book hath never a prayer for it self , ] i confess is sarcastical , and i unfeignedly thank you for calling me to review it ; and i do unfeignedly repent of it , and desire pardon of god and men , for speaking words of so much derision ? though i then no more perceived my fault , than you do yours . i mentioned some that were scandalized at the scorns of men at the liturgie heretofore ; and , 1. he calls it a prophane story fitter for ranters , 2. he challengeth me to tell the names of them that used those expressions . 3. he thinks i did greatly sin in repeating them . 4. else he will think i invented them ▪ on purpose to make my brethren odious , and justifie the persecution against them . answ. 1. if it be so bad , why are you so angry with me , for being against it , and th● like , or ●ny scorns at other mens tolerable devotion ? 2. your challenge is but a drop of your unrighteousness . i told you i knew them that were inflamed by those words , but not that i knew the speaker . and how should a man know the names of all that look in at a church-door ? how oft have i had quakers in the face of the market and of the publick congregation , revile me , and curse me as in the name of god , and speak as bad words as those , when i seldome asked what their names were . and yet i must name them or be to you a malicious lyar . and shall i no● be so with you , if i obey your challenge ? is it not uns●vo●●y to name men in such stories ? well , i will thus for this once obey you . in 1640. coming up to london to the physitians , i lay at bosoms-inn in laurence-●●●●e : on the lords-day the inn-keeper , an old man ( mr. hawkshead as i remember his name was ) came in from laurence church with some guests in a very great passion : we ask'd him what the matter was ? he answered , that as he went into the church , a fellow look'd in , and spake those very words i recited , save that he said [ the deele ] instead of [ the devil : ] and from very sober honest people i have , i believe , many score times heard them call the common prayer [ porridge ] and say , [ he is not out of his porridge yet . ] 3. if i sin in repeating them , i pray you justifie not that spirit that uttered them ; nor be not of the mind of the councellor of the wicked in this age , whose policy is to perswade men to commit such heinous sins ( perjury , lying , &c. ) which sound odiously in the naming , and then no man may ever accuse them , lest he be guilty of railing , incivility , &c. 4. brother , a very low degree of ingenuity would have taught you to have judged such a plea for love , by one that in this book speaketh more against persecuting you , than ever you read , i believe , in a licensed book since the printing act , to have come from no malicious persecuting intent . yet , as if you were so eagerly set on the defence of the dividing scandalous miscarriages of this age , as to take it for persecution so much as to lament them , or pray against them , you gather the same conclusion from my very prayers to god , for pitty to his church that is distracted and endangered by such usage . and here , seeing your sufferings are so much talk'd of , and i am numbred by you among your persecutors , endure me to tell you , that suffering hath its temptations as well as prosperity ; and that the temptations to passion , and to run too far from those we suffer by , and to lose our charity to them and their adherents , are so much stronger to me ( i leave others to judge themselves ) than the temptations to fear and timerous complyances , that i was much more jealous of my heart in this , when i suffered most than at other times : for i knew that it is one of satans designs to rob me of my charity and integrity , in which he would more triumph than in depriving me of my maintenance , reputation and liberty . and i must confess to you , brother , that ( though i once hoped that we should have been great gainers by our sufferings ) the fruit of them now appeareth to me to be such in many as maketh me more afraid of imprisonment for the sake of my soul , than of my body , lest it should stir up that passion which should bear down my judgement into some errors and extreams , and corrupt and destroy my love to them by whom i suffer . and truly , brother , i am fully convinced that many that think their sufferings are their glory , and prove them better men than others , are lamentably lost and overcome by their sufferings . i think your companion and you are no gainers by it , who presently by preaching and writing thus , bring water to the extinguishing of christian love. i think those two gentlemen before mentioned , that turned quakers in prison , and left their religion ( as many more have done ) were losers by it . and i think many thousands in these times , that are driven into various errors and extreams , and have lost their charity to adversaries and dissenters , have lost a thousand times more than their liberties and money comes to . woe be to the world because of offences ; and woe be to them by whom offence cometh . experience of too many maketh me less in love with sufferings than i have been ; and to think that the quiet and peaceable preaching of the gospel ( though under many other disadvantages ) if god would grant it us , would be better for our own souls . except . xix . answered . you proceed , [ but mr. b. being once got into the chair of the scornful will not easily out , and therefore goes on [ it is an odious sound to hear an ignorant , rash , self-conceited person , especially a preacher , to cry out idolatry , idolatry , against his brethrens prayers to god , because they have something in them to be amended , ] whereas we do not therefore think any thing to be guilty of idolatry , because it hath something in it to be amended , [ but because it is used in the worship of god , without any command of god to make it lawful ; ] and this we must tell our dictator , is a species of idolatry , and forbid in the second commandement : and if he will not receive it so , it is , to use his own arrogant and imperious words , because he understands not christian sense and reason . answ. 1. the charge of idolatry against the liturgie and conformable ministers i found in iohn goodwins book , and mr. brownes , and others : but this , brother , carrieth it much further . 2. he contradicteth himself in his negation and affirmation : for , whatsoever is to be amended , which is used in gods worship , hath no command of god to make it lawful ( for it is sin : ) but whatsoever is used in gods worship without any command of god to make it lawful , he affirmeth to be idolatry : ergo , whatsoever is used in gods worship which is to be amended , he maketh to be idolatry . 3. reader , if this one section do not make thy heart grieve for the sake of the church of christ , that our poor people should be thus taught , and our congregations thus distracted , and unholyness , that is , uncharitableness , fathered upon the god of love , and our sufferings and non-conformity thus turned to our reproach , and wrath and reviling pretended to be religion , thou hast not a true sense of the concernments of christianity and the souls of men . i shall propose here these few things to thy consideration . quest. 1. whether an idolater be not an odious person , and unfit for christian communion ? ( that these men think so , their practise sheweth . ) q. 2. whether he that writeth and preacheth to prove others idolaters , do not write and preach to make them ( so far ) seem odious , and to perswade men from loving them , and having communion with them as christians ? q. 3. whether he that preacheth up hatred causelesly , and preacheth down christian love , do not preach down the sum of true religion , and preach against god , who is love ? q. 4. whether preaching against god and religion , be not worse than talking against it in an ale-house , or in prophane discourse ? and fathering all this on god and religion be not a sad aggravation of it ? q. 5. whether this , brother , that affirmeth this to be idolatry that he speaketh against , should not have given us some word of proof , especially where he calleth me that deny it , a dictator ? and whether both as affirmer among logicians , and as accuser among men of justice , the proof be not incumbent on him ? q. 6. whether here be a syllable of proof , but his angry affirmation ? q. 7. whether thou canst receive this saying of his , if thou have christian sense and reason , so far as to believe that all the churches of christ fore-named , the greek , the abissine , the armenian , the coptics , the lutherans , and all the reformed churches that fall under his charge , are idolaters ? and couldst bring thy heart accordingly to condemn them , and separate from them ? and whether thou canst take all the holy conformists of england , such as bolton , preston , sibbes , stocke , dike , elton , crooke , whateley , fenner , &c. for idolaters ? yea , and all the non-conformists that used and joyned in the liturgie ? q. 8. whether thou canst believe that this same brother himself , that writeth at this rate , do use nothing in gods worship which hath no command of god to make it lawful ? is all this reviling , all this false doctrine , all his untruths commanded of god ? or doth he not make himself an idolater ? q. 9. whether , if he teach true doctrine , there by any church or person in the world that worshippeth not god with idolatry ; i give my reasons . 1. there is no one but sinneth , ( or useth sin ) in the worship of god. but no sin is commanded or lawful : ergo there is no one , according to his doctrine , but useth idolatry in the worship of god. 2. there is no one that useth not some things not commanded to make them lawful , in the worship of god : therefore , if he teach true doctrine , there is no one but useth idolatry . the antecedent i have oft proved by many instances : the method of every sermon , and prayer , the words , the time and length , the translation of the scripture , whether it shall be this or that , the dividing of the scripture into chapters and verses , the meeter of psalms , the tunes , church utensils , sermon notes ( which some use , ) catechisms in forms , &c. the printing of the bible , or any other books , &c. none of these are commanded . and all these are used in the worship of god. and must all christians in the world be taught to fly from one another as idolaters ? is this the way of love and unity ? q. 10. why should this , brother , be so extream impatient with me for calling dividers , weak and pievish , and censorious christians ? if in his own judgement all men be idolaters , that use any thing in gods worship not commanded ? is not this to censure all men as idolaters ? and yet is a censure of previshness on these censurers a justifying of persecution . q. 11. whether this kind of talk be not sport to the papists , to hear us call one another idolaters , as well as them ? and do not make them deride us ; and harden them in their bread-worship , and image-worship , as being called idolatry on no better grounds than we so call one another . q. 12. whether it be not a great dishonour to any man to suffer silencing , because he cannot add to gods worship , the ceremonies and liturgie , and at the same time to add to gods word new and false doctrines of our own , by saying that [ it is a species of idolatry , forbidden in the second command , because it is used in the worship of god without any command to make it lawful . ] and if we should suffer such false doctrine , and additions , and love-killing , dividing principlesas this , to go uncontradicted , whether we do not betray the truth and our flocks , and shew that we were too worthy of our sufferings ? but that this assertion or definition of idolatry is false , i need to prove no otherwise , than , 1. that it is unproved by him that is to prove it , and , 2. that it denieth christ to have a church on earth , or to have any but churches of idolaters . 3. that it turneth all sin in gods worship into one species , even idolatry . and so every false doctrine used in gods worship is idolatry : every antimonian , anabaptist , separatist , or of any other error be it never so small , must be presently an idolater , if in prayer or preaching he speak his error : and what man is infallible ? when your companion promised in the pulpit , that there should be no more tythes , no more taxes , nor no more king , in worcestershire after worcester-fight , this must be idolatry . for certainly no error is commanded of god. 4. that it maketh the description of a thing indifferent , to be the description of idolatry . for as [ a thing forbidden ] is the description of sin , so to be [ not commanded ] speaketh no more but indifferency ( though the prohibition to do any thing not commanded , speaketh more , if it could be proved . ) 5. it is contrary to the scripture which never useth the word [ idolatry ] in that sense ? peruse the several texts , and try . 6. it equalleth almost all churches with the infidel and pagan world. 7. it heinously injureth god , who is a hater of idolaters , and will visit their sins ( as god-haters ) on the third and fourth generations ; to feign him to be thus a hater of his churches , and of them that use any thing in his worship not commanded . 8. it tendeth to drive all christians to despair , as being idolaters , and so abhorred of god , because they have all some uncommanded , yea forbidden thing in worship : for by this mans doctrine , a sinful wandring thought , a sinful disorder , or tautologie , or bad expression is idolatry , ( as being not commanded . ) 9. it tendeth to drive men to give ever worshipping god ; because while they are certain to sin , they are certain to be idolaters , when they have done their best ▪ 10. it hardeneth the mahometans in their enmity to christianity , who being the great exclaimers against idolatry do already falsely brand us with that crime . but what ever else it do , i am sure it is so pernicious an engine of satan , to kill love and divide the church , to feign every conformist how holy soever , and every one that useth in worship any thing not commanded , to be an idolater , that i may well advise all christians , as they love christ and his church , and their own souls , to keep themselves from such mistakes . were it not that it is unmeet to do great works ●●rily , on such slight occasions , in such a discourse as this is , i would here stay to open the meaning of the second commandement ; and shew , 1. that there are abundance of lawful things in gods worship , as circumstances and outward modes that are not commanded in specie or individuo . 2. that somethings forbidden in that commandement indirectly , are not idolatry . 3. much less are they a sufficient cause of separation . but this is fitter for another place . and i again refer you to mr. lawson in his theopolitica . except . xx. answered . this exception is but a bundle of mistakes , and the fruit of your false interpretation of my design , 1. that i prove not what i say , is not true , when the many instances fully prove it , and you your self deny them not . 2. when i explain my self frequently and fully , who i do not mean by dividers , and what separation i allow , you feign me to open my mind [ very unwillingly , ] and to [ defend those whom i traduce , ] that you may make men believe that i mean those whom i still profess that i mean not , and that you know my mind better than i my self . this is not true and righteous dealing . except . xxi . p. 12. answered . when i say [ our presence at the prayers of the church , is no profession of consent to all that is faulty in those prayers ] he saith , [ the apostle thought otherwise in a like ●ase of sitting at meat in an idols temple . ] answ. brother , of all the men that ever i had to do with , scarce any hath dealt so superficially , without saying any thing against the proofs which i lay down , no● seeming to take any notice of them . how can you choose but see your self , that by denying my proposition . 1. you make it unlawful to joyne with any church or person in the world ; and so would dissolve all church-communion and family-worship ; for do not all men sin in prayer ? and must any man consent to sin ? 2. how do you reflect on god that forbiddeth us , to forsake the assembling of our selves together ? if consenting to sin be unavoidable ? 3. i told you , we consent not to the faults of our own prayers , much less to anothers , that are less in our power ? what work would this one opinion of yours make in the world ? if we are guilty of all that is faulty in all the prayers of the church ( or family ) we joyn with , yea more , do by our presence profess consent to them ; and withal , if all not commanded in worship be idolatry ▪ what a world are we then in ? it 's time then to turn seekers , and say that church and ministry are lost . it is these principles , brother , that i purposely wrote my book against . but you speak much besides the truth , when you say [ the apostle thought otherwise in a like case ; ] for you never prove that he thought otherwise : dare you say , ( i beseech you think on it ) that paul and all the apostles , and all the churches , professed consent to all the faults in worship which they were present at ? how know you that they were never present at any such as paul reproveth in the corinthians ? yea , was christ a professed consenter to all that he was present at ? or all that he commanded men to be present at , when he went to the synagogues , and bade the cleansed , go shew themselves to the priests , and offer , &c. and bade his disciples , hear the scribes and pharisees , &c. i do not charge the consequences on your person , but it 's easie to see , that it will follow from this opinion , that christ was a sinner , and consequently no saviour , and so no christ. alas , whither would you carry the people of the lord ? nor do you prove paul's case to be like this . eating at the sacrifi●●s in the idols temples was visible corporal idolatry , forbidden indeed , in the second commandement as idolatry ( interpretative , visible , external , corporeal . ) it was that very act by which an idol was outwardly worshipped . therefore it was a professing-act interpretatively . symbolizing with idolaters i have told you , is professing ; for a symbole is a professing sign . but he that is present , with a church professing to worship , not an idol , but the true god , and that according to the scripture , and is united to the church only in this profession , doth not by so doing profess consent to a ministers ill wording , or methodizing of his prayers or his sermons , which is the work of his own office . 2. as for your charge of blasphemy , &c. on me , for intreating you to take heed lest you blaspheme , by making gods foreknowing of faults , to signifie an approbation , i pass it by , and will not by so frivolous a return be drawn to enter further on that point . except . xxii . p. 13. answered . whether it be bitterness , fierceness , fury , or proud impatience , to reprove these sins , in an instance which your self presume not to contradict ; and whether the opinion that [ no truth is to be silenced for peace ] be fit for judicious peaceable men to own , or be not fit to be gain-said , i have long ago debated in my book of infant-baptisme , pag. 218. except . xxiii . p. 13. answered . if you dissent , why did you answer none of the six reasons i gave for what i said , nor seem to take notice of them ? but only when i say [ it were easie to instance in unseasonable and imprudent words of truth , spoken to princes which have raised persecutions of long continuance , ruined churches , caused the death of multitudes , &c. upon which you put four questions , to which i answer , 1. the flattery of some , will not justifie the sinful imprudence of others . 2. if you should be guilty of the blood of thousands by one sin , will it excuse you that another was more guilty ? 3. elijah , micaiah , and iohn baptist , spake not unseasonably or imprudently : nor is all imprudent that bringeth suffering or death . 4. gospel ministers may follow them that spake prudently ; but unseasonable and imprudent speaking , is not following them . i have recited elsewhere a saying even of dr. th. iackson , that it is not because great men have not sins and wrath enough , that there are no more martyrs under christian rulers ; but because there be not john baptists enough to tell them of them ( to that sense . ) but , either by all this you mean to defend unseasonable and imprudent speaking , or else you mean that there is no such sin , or else you must needs contend where you consent . if it be the first or third , i will not be so imprudent as to sence with you . if the second , it is gross contradiction of reason and morality , and of christ himself , matth. 7. 6. 1 tim. 2. 11 , 12. 1 cor. 14. 28. 34. amos 5. 13. eccl. 3. 7. except . xxiv . p. 14. [ he hath found out a new cause of separation , and such as we doubt not the pope will thank him for , when he saies , [ almost all our contentions and divisions , are caused by the ignorance and injudiciousness of christians ; ] for it is evident that our contentions at this day , are principally , if not wholly caused , by the pride , impertinencie and tyranny of imposers ; which guilt mr. baxter would ease them of , by charging it on the ignorance and injudiciousness of christians . ] answ. these last words are your 17th . untruth ; 1. where have i said a word to ease them of it ? may not two persons or parties be both guilty of division ? yea , if one were guilty [ wholly ] that is , of the whole , yet he may not be guilty solely , and no one with him . 2. have you or any of your party , done so much to have stopt that cause of divisions which you accuse , as i have done ? and did i ever change my mind ? 3. o that god would make you know what spirit you are of , and what you are doing ! alas , brother , will you leave england no hope of a cure ? what hope , while we are impenitent ? what repentance , while we justifie our sins ? yea , while the preachers teach the people to justifie them , and become the defenders of the sins which they should preach against ; and fight against their brethren that do but call m●n to ●●p●nt : what! is godliness up , and in honour among us , while repentance is down , as an intolerable abhorred thing ! what a godliness is that , which abhorreth repentance ? i am offended greatly with my own heart , that melteth not into tears over such lines as th●se , for england's sake ▪ and for religions sake ; for the honour of god , and for the souls of men . is that [ a new cause of separation ] which hath been the cause since the daies of the apostles to this day ? did ever man read the histories of the schismes and heresies of the churches , and not find out this cause , this old , this ordinary cause ? if you had remembred but what socrates and sozomene say of the church of alexandria alone , what contentions , what tumults , what blood-shed these weaknesses and faults of christians caused , it might have told you , it is no new thing . o lamentable case of miserable england , that even among the zealouser sort of ministers , any should be found , that either vindicateth all christians from the charge of ignorance and injudiciousness ! or that thinketh these are no causes , or no culpabie causes of divisions ! that have no more acquaintance with the people of this land ! and know no better them that they plead for ! that such should seek to flatter poor souls in despite of that open light , and undeniable 〈◊〉 of all the christian world ! that in an age when the weaknesses and faults of christians have wrought such heinous effects among us , they should be denied ! and when god by judgements hath so terribly summoned us to repent , by silencing , dissipations , imprisonments , reproaches , and most dreadful plagues and flames ; alas , shall we call to professors that have ruined us by ignorance and injudiciousness ( the gentlest names that their sin will bear ) and say , repent not christians , you are not ignorant or injudicious ; it is not you that are the causes of our divisions and calamities , our contentions at this day are principally , if not wholly caused by the pride , impertinency , and tyranny of the imposers . believe not , christians , that you are innocent ; believe not that you are not ignorant and injudicious as you love your souls , and as you love the land : if once god deliver us up to antichristian darkness and cruelties , it will be cold comfort to you , to think , that you once were flattered into impenitency , and made believe that you were not the cause . but that our hearts may yet more relent in this sad condition of the seduced , let us hear the following words . besides , ( saith he ) we cannot understand the meaning of such phrases as [ dull christians , ignorant and injudicious christians ; ] for whoever are christians indeed have received an anointing , by which they know all things , 1 joh. 2. 20. 27. and should not have such vile epithets affixed to them , which only ●●nd to expose even christianity it self , as if it did not cure those that sincerely imbraced it , of their ignorance and injudiciousness . answ. it is no disgrace to christianity , that it is set off by the presence of ignorance and injudiciousness ; as sickness maketh us know the worth of health . nor is it long of life or health , that doleful diseases remain yet uncured ; for were it not for them , instead of diseases there would be death . it is godliness and christianity which bringeth that light and health into the world that is in it ; and men are not ignorant and bad because they are christians and religious , but because they are not better christians , and more religious . perfect christianity would make men perfectly judicious . the weakest true christian exceedeth the learnedst ungodly doctor even in judgement and knowledge ; because he practically and powerfully knoweth , that god is god , and to be preferred in honour , obedience , and love before all the world ; and that christ is christ , and to be believed in for justification and salvation ; and that the holy spirit is his advocate and our quickener , illuminater and sanctifier , to be believed and obeyed ; and that there is a life of happiness to be hoped for , which is better than all the pleasures of sin , and the felicity of worldlings ; in a word , they have a real , though imperfect understanding of the baptismal covenant , and of the creed , or symbole of christian faith : and this is a great and noble knowledge , and cure of them that were lately ignorant of all these things , and were led captive ●y the prince of darkness at his will. if the reader that would see the difference will peruse my small tractate of catholick unity , he may be informed of it . but yet is there no such thing as ignorant , dull , injudicious christians , because they know all things ; must we not use such phrases and epithetes , because christianity cureth them . dear brother , i have no mind to make you odious , nor to open your sin to others ; but you have opened it to the world , and i must open it to you , if possibly you may repent ; but especially i am bound to try to save mens souls from this perilous deceit ; and theref●●● i shall prove to you that there are such 〈…〉 and ignorant and injudicious christians ; and 2. i shall tell you the greatness of your error and sin . that there are such is proved , 1. by the words of scripture , heb. 5. 11 , 12 , 13 , 14. [ seeing yee are dull of hearing : for when for the time yee ought to be teachers , yee have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of god , and are become such as have need of milk and not of strong meat ; for every one that useth milk is unskilfull ( or unperienced ) in the word of righteousness ; for he is a babe : but strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil . 1 tim. 3. 6. not a novice , lest being lifted up with pride , he fall into the condemnation of the devil . the verb 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is otherwise by our translators in the margin turned [ besotted . ] and strigelius saith that it signifieth not only puffed up , but one crack'd brain'd and phanatick : and lyserus saith of the same word , 2 tim. 3. 4. translated high minded , that it answereth an hebrew word which signifyeth , to be dark , and not to shine clearly ; which leigh reciteth . see martinius de typho . 1. cor. 3. 1 , 2 , 3 , 4. and i brethren could not speak unto you as unto spiritual , but as unto carnal , as unto babes in christ : i have fed you with milk ▪ and not with meat . for hitherto yee w 〈…〉 t able to bear it , neither yet now are yee able : for yee are yet carnal : for whereas there is among you , envying ( the word is , zeal , that is , emulation ) and strife , ( or contention [ and divisions , ] or factions , ) are yee not carnal , and walk as men ( or according to man ; ) for when one saith , i am of paul , and another i am of apollo , are yee not carnal ? eph. 4. 14. that we henceforth be no more children , tost to and fro , and carried about with every wind by the sleight ( or cousenage ) of men , and cunning craftiness whereby they lye in wait , to deceive ; but speaking the truth in love may grow up , &c. luke 24. 25. o fools and slow of heart to believe , all that the prophets have spoken . mark 6. 52. they considered not the miracle of the loaves , for their heart was hardened . mark 8. 17. why reason yee because yee have no bread ? perceive yee not yet , neither understand ? have yee your hearts yet hardened ? having eyes see yee not ? and having ears , hear yee not ? and do you not remember ? luke 12. 16. these things understood not his disciples at the first . luke 18. 32 , 33 , 34. they shall scourge him , and put him to death , and the third day he shall rise again : and they understood none of these things ; and this saying was hid from them , neither knew they the things which were spoken . 1 cor. 8. 2. 7. 10. if any man think that he knoweth any thing , he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know , — howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge : but some with conscience of the idol unto this hour , eat it as a thing offered to an idol , and their conscience being weak is defiled . shall not the conscience of him that is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols . see rom. 14 and 15. gal. 6. 1. 1 cor. 9. 22. gal. 3 and 4. throughout . col. 2. 21 , 22 , &c. heb. 13. 9. 1 tim. 1. 3. should i recite all such epithetes , convictions , and reproofs in scripture it would be tedious . 2. the thing is further proved by the common experience of mankind , which it amazeth me to think a man that liveth among men in the world , awake and in his senses , can be ignorant of ? enemies know it : friends know it ; not only that there are ignorant and injudicious christians , but that the far greatest part are such though not in a damning , yet in a sad and troublesome degree ! and that the far greatest part of those that we hope are truly godly , remain so lamentably ignorant of abundance of things , that should be known , and continue in such an infancy of understanding , as is a great advantage to the tempter , and many waies calamitous to themselves , and to the church : it is the lamentation of all experienced ministers . alas , how ignorant even honest people remain ; and how slowly they come on in knowledge ? 3. if god have made it one half the work of the pastors of the churches , to labour all their daies to heal the ignorance of good people , then , such ignorant ones there are : but the antecedent is plain in scripture ; and believed by most ministers , as their daily sermons tell you . 4. do not the multitudes of sects and errors , and contentions that have torn the church from the apostles daies till now prove it ? were all those in the catalogues of epiphanius , augustine , philastrius , &c. certainly graceless ? or were none of them ignorant and injudicious ? and though church-tyranny be a grand divider , that this was not the only cause , two instances prove to the great disgrace of this assertion of his . first , the instance of the said sects of christians , for the first 300 or 400 years , when there were no such impositions . secondly , our late twenty years ( or neer ) contentions and divisions , and numerous parties , when there were little or no impositions . was it impositions or tyranny that bred sects in the armies , and in england and ireland in the daies of liberty ? 5. and is it not sufficient proof to england , that there are weak , ignorant , injudicious christians , when the ruines of twenty years experience overwhelmeth us , and when so many years unreconcilable differences prove i ? and when we have so many sects and differences to this day : what all these differences , these wars , these disputings , these censurings , divisions and confusions , and yet no ignorant injudioious christians ? o what will pass for proof with them that will not take such experience for proof ? 6. and what say you by all the greek , the abassine , armenian , nestorian , iacobite , &c. christians , that are alas , in national general ignorance : which will you affirm , brother ; that all these nations are damnable infidels , or no christians ? or that there are no ignorant christians among them ? 7. and what say you by all the contentions of lutherans and calvinists , arminians and antiarminians , the troubles of germany by muntzer and his anabaptists , and those at munster , and those in holland , and many other countreys . 8. and what say you by all the books now extant ( dr. crispes , mr. saltmarshes , cop's , mr. cradocks , mr. dels , mr. dens , mr. randalls , iacob behmens , and all the germane prophets , andr. osiander , swenkfieldius , &c. ) is there no christianity ? or no ignorance and injudiciousness apparent in them ? besides all the writings of episenpal , presbyterian , independents , separatists , anabaptists , &c. against one another . 9. do you not think your self , that multitudes of conformists , yea ministers are ignorant and injudicious ? sure you do ; and can you judge them all to be no christians ? 10. do you not think that i am ignorant and injudicious ? if not , you must not only think that i am no christian , but also extreamly maliciously wicked . but if you do so think of me , can you think so of all the non-conformable ministers of my judgement . i am sure if you believe your self , and as you write ; ignorance is the easiest charge we can expect from you . 11. and will you put sorth such a book as your own to the world , and when you have done deny the ignorance and injudiciousness of all christians ? this is all one as to swear that there is never a swearer among christians . 12. i appeal to the common charges of ministers in their sermons and books , who charge weak christians with dulness , ignorance , and injudiciousness . 13. i appeal to the experience of all masters of families , whether they meet with no such christians there ? yea , how hard it is to meet with better ? 14. i appeal to the experience of every self-knowing christian , whether he find not abundance of dulness , ignorance and injudiciousness in himself ? 15. i appeal to the prayers of almost all christians , whether they charge not themselves with this to god ? 16. i appeal to almost all the disagreeing disputers of this and every age , whether they charge not one another with it ? 17. i appeal to most parishes in england , whether many of the people charge not their ministers themselves with it ? 18 i appeal to universities , tutors and schools , whether they know none such ? 19. i appeal to any judicious man , whether he find not the judicious even among good christians ; yea , and ministers to be , alas , too rare ? 20. and i appeal to all men that are awake , whether there be no christian children in the world ? and whether all such children are cured of ignorance and injudiciousness , and know all things by the anointing of the spirit ? and if all this be no proof , it is time to give over teaching and disputing . and now that , if perhaps , you may repent , and others be preserved , i shall tell you what nature this sinful doctrine and practice is of ; 1. it is a cherishing of pride , which is the first-born of the devil : yea of spiritual pride , even a pride of mens knowledge and iudiciousness , which is worse than pride of wealth or ornaments . 2. hereby it resisteth a great work of the gospel and spirit of christ , which consisteth in the humbling of souls , and making them become as little children , conscious of ignorance , and teachable . 3. it defendeth that sin which all experienced judicious men complain of , as that common calamity of mankind , which is the grand cause of contentions , and errors in the world. which is , mens thinking that they know what they do not , and over-valuing their own understandings , & thinking that they are wise when it is otherwise . 4. it contradicteth the holy ghost , and reproveth his language and reproofs , as i have before shewed . to which i adde 2 tim. 3. 6 , 7. they lead captive silly women laden with sins , led away with divers lusts , ever learning , and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth . 1 cor. 15. where paul is put to prove the resurrection ; ver . 34. some have not the knowledge of god : i speak this to your shame : ver . 36. thou fool , that which thou s●west , &c. hos. 9. 7. the prophet is a fool , the spiritual man is mad , &c. 1 cor. 3. 18. let him become a fool that he may be wise . if you say that some of these were not true saints , i answer , 1. paul calleth the church of corinth in general , saints . 2. our question is of more than true saints ; even such as may by others ( who are no heart-searchers ) be called , christians ; whether we may call any [ dull , ignorant , or injudicious christians ? ] 5. you teach parents and masters to neglect and betray the souls of their children and servants , that are christians : and children and servants , to reject the teaching of parents and masters : for if they are not dull , nor ignorant , what need they to be taught or to learn ? and at what age do they come to know all things , and to be past the title of ignorant ? is it at 4 , or 5 , or 7 years old ? doubtless they may have the spirit then : if not , where is it that you will set the bounds ? at what age were you past your ignorance and injudiciousness , and knew all things ? 6. you thus make the work of schoolmasters needless ; and also of tutors and academies . 7. you encourage and countenance idle ministers , as to the labours necessary to christians : if there be no dull nor ignorant christians , they are not so blame-worthy as we have made them . 8. you excuse those that unjustly hinder christs ministers to preach to christians , in any part of the world : if there be no ignorant christians , preachers are not so necessary , nor silencing them so bad a thing as we have made it . 9. you encourage the contemners of the preaching of gods word , who say , what need we go to hear , we know as much as they can tell us . 10. you contradict the sermons of almost all ministers , as if they abused christianity , and belyed the people , when they reprove their ignorance and dulness . 11. you encourage the bold invaders of the ministry , who thinking that they know all things , and are not ignorant , do turn teachers of others , before they have learned themselves . 12. you encourage the disputing , contentious wrangling , and insolent spirit that is abroad , which maketh men tear and divide the church , by confidence in their several opinions ; while all of them may think that they are not ignorant nor injudicious . 13. you seek to keep christs disciples in continual ignorance , while you would make them believe that they are not ignorant , and so keep them out of a learning way , which is a disciples state . 14. you condemn your own practice , who preach to those that you judge your self to be christians ; for what need they your teaching ( as to their understandings ) if they are not ignorant , but know all things ? 15. you countenance the q●akers and papists in their doctrine of perfection : yea you go far beyond them , inasmuch as they ascribe perfection but to a few . 16. you justifie all the errors of the times , which christians hold , and teach them to say , we are christians , therefore we erre not , for we are not ignorant . 17. you justifie contradictions : for if ten men be of ten several contrary minds , e. g. about the exposition of a text , it is but one of them that can be right ; and yet you teach them all to think that they are right . 18. you do this against the full light and experience of an age of errors , yea of almost all ages of the church . 19. you shew your self insensible of the sinful ignorance and divisions , and ruines thereby procured , these twenty years . 20. you teach all those that are or have been guilty , to be impenitent . 21. you do this in an age , when dreadful judgements , which have begun at the house of god , do call his houshold most loudly to repent , and to be an example of penitence to others . 22. should you prevail thus to keep christians in impenitence , you would keep us in our calamities , and turn away the peace and deliverance which we hope and pray for , and be the prognostick of our continued woe , if not of the undoing of the land , and an utter forsaking . 23. you teach christians in prayer not to confess their dulness or ignorance , and make them speak falsly that do consess it . 24. you vilifie all those means which god hath instituted to cure his peoples ignorance , as a needless thing , if it be cured in all already ; as reading , hearing , meditating , conference , &c. 25. you cross the use of all the world , even the works of creation and providence , so far as they are gods means to teach christians knowledge , and cure their ignorance . 26. you teach men to lose the most of their lives , as to growth in knowledge , when they must believe that they are cured of their ignorance as soon as they are christians , and know all things perhaps at seven years old . 27. you teach almost all christians to despair of their sincerity , and to deny themselves to be christians . for when you have taught them that [ whoever are christians indeed , have received the anointing by which they know all things , and are cured of their ignorance and injudiciousness , & are not to be called dull , or ignorant , or injudicious christians . ] they will quickly assume [ but it is not thus with me , i am dull and ignorant , &c. therefore i am not a christian indeed . ] 28. you almost if not wholly deny and un-church christs church on earth , while you deny all to be christians indeed that are ignorant , injudicious , dull , and know not all things . 29. by cherishing the pride and ignorance of christians , you cherish all their other sins , which these two are the common parents of . 30. you make us hereby seem a tender and a factious people , that see motes in the eyes of others , but not beams in our own ▪ who can aggravate the sins of others , yea , the publick worship into idolatry it self ; but when we come to our party , we take it for a reproach to christianity , to be called dull , or ignorant , or injudicious . 31. you shew by this that your censure of the conformists is so high , as to make them all to be no christians indeed . for you cannot think that an idolater is not ignorant and injudicious : and so no christian with you . but he that wrote mr. bolton's life , thought otherwise . 32. you abuse the scripture , 1 ioh. 2. 20. 27. to countenance all this ; as the quakers do [ he that is born of god sinneth not . ] calvin truly noteth that by [ knowing all things , he meaneth not universally ; sed ad praesentis loci circumstantiam restringi debet ; ] it is , the all things which the apostates there reproved did deny . as the prophet saith , they shall not need to teach one another saying , know the lord , for all shall know him : — and yet they might have need to teach one another an hundred other truths , though they all knew the true god from idols . so here to know all things , is to be knowing persons , in comparison of the infidels and apostates ; ( which , saith calvin , he speaketh to procure a fair audience with them : ) as if he should say , [ i speak not to you as so rude and ignorant persons that know not these great things which these apostates deny . ] dr. hammond thinketh that it meaneth , that the holy ghost by which you are anointed , or preferred before others , is a certain proof or evidence to you , of the truth of all the doctrine which christ taught , and therefore you cannot forsake him by the seducement of these apostates . beza ●aith , atqui cogn●scimus omnes ex parte , 1 cor. 13. 9. est igitur hyperbole , qua significat apostolus , se nihil afferre quod illi jam antea non intellexerint , quos ipse commonefaciat potius quam doceat , ut loquitur etiam ipse dominus , jer. 31. 34. vel quod etiam simplicius est , omnia intelligit necessaria agnoscendis anti-christis , & ●avendis illorum insidiis : and to that purpose the english anotations . but further i grant , that all christians have that spirit which teacheth them all things needful to salvation . but how ? not in the first moment . nor without their pains and patience in learning : but in blessing them by degrees in the use of those means , which they must continue learning by , while they live ; which notwithstanding , most are long dull and ignorant , and injudicious , though not in comparison of unbelievers . but what if the text had meant properly [ yee know all things ; ] do you prove that this is spoken of all true christians , and that in all ages ? and that it is not partly grounded on the extraordinary anointing of the spirit , poured out , act. 2. proper to those primitive times , for the obsignation of the gospel . 33. it 's a heinous sin to be a flatterer of mens souls ! and to sowe pillows under mens elbows , and to call evil good , and to sooth multitudes up in their ignorance , and tell them , it is not an epithete fit for them . 34. and thus you teach them to oppose and hate a faithfuller sort of ministers , who will tell them of that which you would draw them to deny . 35. and it is a double sin for a minister to do this , who is a watch-man for the peoples souls . 36. and yet more , for one that so sharply reprehendeth the faultyness of conformists , as to separate from them . 37. and to pretend that the consession of our own faults is not only an easing of other mens , but even a meriting of the pope ; as if either the pope must be in the right , or no christians must be said to be church-dividers by their ignorance ; even in a time when our divisions so shew themselves , that no one can doubt of them : what is this but to perswade men to be papists ? 38. and what is all this but to expose us to the scorn of all that are inclined to scorn us . to teach them to look on us as they do on the quakers , as a proud , distracted sort of people , that will make the world believe that none of us are ignorant , injudicious , or dividers , against such notorious publick evidence : yea , to harden them that have voluminously reproached the non-conformists , and to engage your self to justifie all the ignorant , injudicious sayings that they are charged with ; or else to prove that the speakers were no christians . 39. and this you do in the very day of our scandals and reproach , where thousands are already hardened into a distaste of serious religion , by our former divisions and injudicious miscarriages ; as if you would thrust these miserable souls yet deeper into infidelity and atheism . and when the scandal of our divisions hath turned many ( and some old professors of religiousness ) unto popery ; you take the course to turn off more . 40. yea , by making us thus odious , you do very much to increase the distaste and displeasure of our afflicters , and to bring more sufferings upon us , as a people that are phanaticks indeed : even while you make proud imposition and persecution the cause of our divisions . and when the world knoweth , not only that in the first 300 years of the church , there were swarms of heresies and sects , and also after luther's reformation , and among us in armies , cities , and countrey for about 20 years , even to our own confusion ; yet would you tempt them to take us for a people not to be believed , by seeming to deny all this . and when i proved to you , that it is gods way after our misdoings , to take the shame to our selves , that it may not fall on our religion ; and the devils way to justifie the misdoings of christians , that christianity and religion may bear the blame ; you give no confutation of any of this , and yet go on to wrong the truth , by defending that which is not to be defended ; if there be none of all this that in your eyes is matter fit for your repentance , i still pray that you may better know what manner of spirit you are of . yet i wish you to observe , that i do not say , that in terms you assert all these ill consequences ; nor do i think that you so practically hold them , as not in some measure to hold the contraries of them ; i take you not to be so bad : but i only advise both you and others , to own no more the opinions which infer such things , nor to do that which tends to cherish them . and i here protest to all that shall take the occasion of your paper , to asperse the protestants , or the non-conformists in general , that they will be inhumanely disingenuous in so doing , when none but the guilty should be accused . except . xxv . answered . 1. brother , you do ill to intimate either of these untruths . 1. either that there is no such thing as [ an ignorant sort of preachers , more valued for their affectionate tone and fervour , than abler judicious men ; ] when as the whole christian world knoweth that there are many such preachers both among the several sects , ( and of our selves , there are or have been some ) and in the publick assemblies ; and among all christian churches where there is preaching through the world : and the worlds experience puts it past doubt , that the generality of the vulgar , unlearned and injudicious sort of men , do value a man by his tone and voice more than for the judgement and excellency of his matter , if not put off by such advantage . brother , you and i are both known persons ; though i look not to mention my self without your imputation of pride , i will venture , while i put my self on the side which you say i reproach , to tell you , that i was once commonly taken to have as affectionate a tone of speech as ever you were , at the least : and i ever found that matter and affection together took best : but that warm affection and fervent utterance , with common and little matter , took more with the far greater part , than far more excellent matter delivered , with less fervour of affection . i have said as much against cold preaching as ever you have done at least : and i am as much against it as ever : and i am my self much helped in profiting by an affectionate delivery . but , brother , i take it for no pride to think that i have had more experience of mens cases than you have had ; ( if you have had no more pastoral charge than i suppose , and came but out of the university when i was ready to be turned off from mine . ) and i must tell you that i have been oft sorry to see how the people have been moved ( in army and countreys ) to value a quaker , a seeker , an antinomian , an anabaptist , a socinian that preach'd down the god-head of christ ; ( and among the orthodox , such ignorant ones as you know i am acquainted with ; ) meerly for the tone and fervency of their delivery . scarce any thing hath more infected the injudicious with errour . 2. or if you deny not that such a thing there is , then it is yet worse in you to feign this empty loudness , or affected fervency , to be the preaching which god owneth to the conversion of souls , comparatively . this is to reproach the work of preaching and conversion , so ill do you avoid what you injuriously impute to others , when you cry out ▪ [ what could parker , &c. have spoken more reproachfully , &c. sure you thought i had spoken against fervent preaching it self , or else you would not have talk'd as you do ? here also ( after some mention of my pride and folly ) you adde two more gross untruths . 1. that what i spake of individual persons without respect to any party , conformists , non-conformists , or separatists , and instanced in many of my own acquaintance , some of which now conform , yea are zealous conformists , who were the ferventest loudest preachers that ever i knew in all my life : [ if i will not tell you who they are , ( alas man , did you never know such ) you must think it concerns all that are at this day engaged in a gospel separation . ] answ. had you said [ we will think so ] it might have been true : but , 1. i had made no mention at all of separation in the whole direction , nor intended any more than i expressed ; but only meant to direct people to avoid that error in the choice of teachers , which prepareth them for any seduction and division . 2. i had largely spoken there for affectionate preaching . 3. i am not acquainted with very many such as in england have been known by the name of separatists , that go no further ; but those few that i do know , i take to be colder , duller preachers , than those that are called presbyterians byfar , for the most part of them ; so far was i from meaning them ; but quakers , and fifth-monarchy men , and some anabaptists i know , and many revilers of the ministry i have known , in armies and countreys that were just such as i describe . 2. it is an untruth that you had no pretence of reason for ( that i can think of ) that i [ have left off the lords work , and instead of helping it forwards with you , am weakening your hands , and disgracing the builders . ] if you mean that i preach not in the pulpit , no more do you : if you mean that i have not a separated church , i never had one ( on your principles at least : ) if you mean that i preach not in london , 1. i cannot if i would . 2. i never had any pastoral charge , nor place in london , but preach'd one year up and down for others , and another year took but a voluntary lecture . 3. london i was forced eight years ago to forsake for my health and life . 4. gods work is not only in london . 5. i have no call thither , nor any people related to me as a pastor there . 6. there are very many worthy men there that want both employment and maintenance , whom i will not injure . are not all these reasons enough ? but if you think otherwise , 7. are not all the preachers in england forsakers of gods work that preach not in london ? 8. i think you preached not for many years , when you lay so long in prison : did you then forsake gods work ? but i must confess , brother , i have alwaies been too slothful and unprofitable a servant , and still am : yet i can say , that i know no other employment that i have , and that i spend no more time in other things than necessities of life require ; i play away none , and i idle away but little ; and preaching , were it oftner , is a small part of my work , and that will be proved to be the lords work , which you think is against him , ( as all have done that ever i wrote against almost . ) and i love you much the better for being zealous for that which you do but think is the lords work ; but i am past doubt that it will prove at last , that such doctrines , passions , and practices as yours , will be the weakeners and hinderers of the builders . except . xxvi . answered . p. 16. i intreat the reader to peruse my words which you except against so angrily , and i am assured , he will find them useful to him , in the great question who shall be iudge ? and to help him out of his perplexities . 1. it is a notorious untruth that you say , [ it is altogether a new way of deciding controversies , to affirm dictator like , in all points of belief or practice which are of necessity to salvation , you must ever keep company with the universal church . ] be it right or wrong , who knoweth not that knoweth what was held of old , that it is the way that irenaeus , tertullian , epiphanius , hierome , augustine , optatus , and abundance more have largely written for : and which vincentius lirinensis wrote his book for , ( quod semper , ubique , & ab omnibus , &c. ) 2. note , reader , that he leaveth out , that i said here [ no man must be iudge , no , not the universal church , but only that they are our associates , and that here every christian maketh the articles of his faith his own , and upon no mans authority , &c. ] but i maintain that it is no article of absolute necessity to salvation , that hath been unknown to the universal church till now ; for then it were no church . but , saith our brother , who shall tell us what is the universal church ? and where shall we find it ? answ. are these questions now to be answered by me ? did you never before hear it done by others ? the universal church , is the universality of christians : it is to be found militant , on this habitable earth . did you not know this ? but you ask , [ how comes the scripture not to be mentioned ? ] answ. because it was not seasonable , or pertinent . i was not defining the church ; if i had , it was definable without the naming of the scripture , at least before the scripture was written : and whence think you did i mean men should make the doctrine of faith their own , past controversie , but by the scripture ? good brother , till you have written more books for the authority of scriptures than i have done , or preach'd more for it , own not such disingenuous intimations . 2. you say that , [ what he addes is much more conceited and singular ; in matters of high and difficult speculation , the judgement of one man of extraordinary understanding and clearness , is to be preferred before both the rulers and the major vote . ] answ. it is another untruth , that this is singular . my very words are almost verbatim in mr. pemble vind. grat. elsewhere cited . why do the scotists , so far follow scotus , and the nominals , ockbam , and the dominicans , aquinas , &c. if this were a singular opinion ? do not all the peripateticks say the same of aristotle in philosophy ? and the atomists of epicurus , democritus and lucretius ; and the cartesians of their master ? doth not dr. twisse say the like of bradwardine and of piscator ? and do not many besides rutherford think the same of him ? do not the ramists say so of ramus ? do not the protestants say so of calvin , as to all that went before him ? nay , is it not almost the common opinion of all learned men ? and a thing beyond dispute ? did ever any man put such points of high speculation to the major vote ? alas , brother , that you should trouble men thus , by printing your confidence against unquestionable truths ! in the next place you suppose , [ mr. baxter hopes , as haman did in the like case , that he shall be the man , or else he would not have advised us to prefer the judgement of any one man whatsoever . ] answ. here are three more untruths , 1. that i hope to be the man. 2. that hamans was the like case . 3. that else i would not have advised , &c. but i let them go for one ; till you have proved what you say , and know my heart better than i my self . in the mean time i give you an instance in which i assure you i hope not to be the man : will you suppose at the next meeting of ministers , that there are sixteen that understand not the hebrew tongue , and three that have but a little smattering in it , and one that is a bithner , ● phagius , a buxtorfe , a tremelius , or ( to please you where it is possible ) an aynswer●h : if the controversie be , how such a t●●● of the old testament is to be interpreted , will you put it to the vote ? or will you not prefer that one mans judgement before all the rest ? and do not those ministers do thus , that trust to the translators , and understand not the originals themselves . but you adde , [ he knows we believe that the scripture is both perfect and plain . ] answ. yes , plain to them that are fitted to understand it . our labour is not to alter the scripture , but to alter mens understandings . do you know as much as twisse or bradwardine for all the scriptures are plain ? or do you think that i know as much as you ? let the reader judge . do you not think that your writing and preaching is needful , for all that the scripture is plain and perfect : and do you not know more than all your hearers ? if all the ministers silenced and unsilenced be not needless to teach the people , why may not some one man excell you and me , whose teaching may be needful to us , and yet the scripture not be disgraced ? or why will you not write us an infallible commentary , and save mr. poole his labour of abbreviating the criticks , if the plainness of the scripture serve your turn without the teaching of any one that excelleth you ? shall all our people , and all the differing , contending parties in england say , the scriptures are perfect and plain , and therefore we need not the translation of them , the interpretations , the decisions or helps of any but our selves ? or of any wiser than the most ? as for your anathema , i thank you for your admonition . except . xxvii . answered . you say he seems to us very much to disparage the reputation of honesty , when he scruples not to affirm [ it oft falleth out that honest people are like straying sheep , if one leap over the hedge , the rest will crowd and strive to follow him . ] this we think is enough to make people afraid of being honest , if indeed when they are so , they are so apt to go astray . answ. 1. do i need to cite you an hundred texts in which this sinning , straying inclination is charged upon honest men ? when paul saith of himself , what he doth , rom. 7. and david of himself , psal. 119. 176. and he that saith that he hath no sin deceiveth himself , and the truth is not in him , and there is not a just man that doth good and sinneth not . did not pauls carnal corinthians , and lgeal galatians go astray one after another ? are you sure that they that followed their leaders into all those sects which epiphanius and others mention , were all dishonest ? and all they that followed swinkfeldius , and behmen , and sti●felius , and muntzer , and such others ? and all they that have followed dr. crispe , or arminius , or the leading anabaptists , or seekers , of these ages ? yea , or all they that did and said those contrary and confounding things in our late troubles , which must not to you be mentioned ? are you sure that none of all these were honest ? or are you sure that none of them went astray ? even when they contradicted , yea , killed one another ? or are you sure that some seduced not the rest ? at least you should not have forgotten in the doing of it , that you were then writing an antidote to keep honest people from being infected by my book for love and unity ; and if honest people are in no such danger , why laboured you in vain ? your intenseness upon what your passion sets you on , hindereth your memory of what you cannot choose but know . 2. but , o brother , how injurious a course is this that you take ? how contrary to all the course of scripture , and the duty of a minister , to lay the reputation of honesty it self so much on such sinners as most honest men are , that honesty it self must be thus published by you to seem dangerous and hurtful , unless all honest people be vindicated from such errors ? as if we must grant that , if men can but prove this straying disposition in many honest persons , they must be afraid to be honest ? and do you not undoubtedly hereby give up all honesty to be avoided ? will any man but you , that is sober , and awake , deny the antecedent , that seeth our several parties , and knoweth what we have done ? this is not the way to vindicate honesty . health and life are not to be avoided because most men have diseases and infirmities . why did you not answer the proofs i gave you of the lutherans , armenians , greeks , and other kingdoms that run together in an error ? are the falls of gods servants recited in scripture , a reason to teach men to flye from honesty or religion ? except . xxviii . answered . when i counselled men to [ note and avoid the sins and bad examples of religious men , and to study what are the common errors of the religious party where we live , that we may take a special care to escape them . ] here , 1. you impute this to my enmity against strictness . answ. 1. i thank you for all your admonitions ; but , truly , brother , you quite mistake our controversie through your book ; which is about dividing the churches , and destroying love , and not whether my heart be malicious , wicked , or to be anathematized ! what if i be worse than iudas ? what 's that to our case in hand ? 2. and time will teach you , that sin is not godly strictness nor honesty ; and that he that was against your sin , might be for your strictness and your honesty . 2. you question whether [ any man that dares write so , is serious . ] this needs no answer . 3. you [ believe such counsel was never given to christians before . ] answ. 1. alas , that any minister or christian should be so unexperienced ! would you not only reproach the non-conformists , but all protestants , and all christians ? as if none either of their ministers or neighbours ever counselled men to watch and escape the sins which the religious part are guilty of , in the time and countrey where they are ? the jews were before christs time the holy peculiar people of god : and did you never read , 1 cor. 10. 1. 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12. it 's too long to transcribe . did you never read heb. 3 and 4 ? nor read of the sins , of the polygamy , the putting away of wives , and other faults of the better sort , and the generality of the jews ? did you never read how common the high place-worship was even under godly kings ? nor yet how the law was neglected till the book was almost unknown ? did you never read of the sins of noah , lot and his family , abraham , isaac , iacob , moses , aaron , and his sons ; the company of corah , david , solomon , peter , & c ? did you never read of christs rebuke of his disciples for their hardness of heart , their ignorance , their striving who should be greatest ? and how he took that occasion to warn them by the comparison of a child , and by his washing and wiping of their feet ? nor yet of his rebuking their common expectation of a temporal kingdom ? are not the errors of the several religious sects reproved by the ancient writers , irenaeus , tertullian , epiphanius , augustine , &c. did you never read any writing counselling men to avoid the errors and sins of the donatists , nor the novatians , the monothelites , the nestorians , eutychians , & c ? the errour of the religious sort among the lutherans , is consubstantiation , church-images , ceremonies , &c. the error of the religious calvinists is too much neglect of the lords day : what those of the arminians and the anabaptists , and many other sorts are , i leave to you . did you never read any man that warned others to avoid these sins and errors ? did you never find in the antimonians writings , that the stricter sort of good people went too far in pressing humiliation , tears and degrees of sorrow , so as to be too dark and sparing in pressing the doctrine of grace and love : ( and it was partly true ; ) did you never hear or read , how superstition , ●remetical and monastical lives , excessive fastings and austerities , were caused by the strictest people ? nor yet of touch not , taste not , handle not ? nor of some lawful things feigned to be unlawful ? nor yet that ever paul wrote to the corinthians , galatians , &c. and christ , by iohn , to six of the asian churches , to know and avoid the sins of christians , together with the hereticks among them ? nor yet that paul said , act. 20. of your own selves shall men arise speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them ? nor yet that he said , i have no man like minded , ( as timothy , ) for all seek their own things , and not the things that are iesus christs ? nor that all forsook him at his appearing before nero ? nor that all his disciples forsook christ and fled ? nor that paul said that the ministers of satan transformed themselves into ministers of righteousness ? in a word , that beside all other sins , the carnal siding and divisions which paul reproved the corinthians for , most ages have among the stricter sort been guilty of ? would you teach your hearers to put their doctrines or practices to a major vote of professors ? do you think we know the sincere from hypocrites ? or that either hypocrites or sincere are without sin ? or that we must take no warning by good mens falls ? must we all do over again , all the faults that religious men have done these 30 years ? you make my heart grieve , brother , to think that there should be a man among us , that thinketh the church must be built up by such doctrines , and such means as yours ? you say [ we are commanded not to conform our selves to the world. ] answ. nor to sinning christians neither ; [ but first ( say you ) to suppose that the religious party have generally some common errors among them , and then to advise that we should carefully study to escape them ; this counsel we think mr. baxter may be the father of ; nor do we envy him the honour of it . ] answ. 1. have the religious sort among the greeks , abassines , nestorians , iacobites , armenians , lutherans , anabaptists , arminians , &c. no common error among them ? 2. are you for more infallibility and perfection than the papists themselves ? 3. will any christian besides you , that is sober , deny that we should study to escape them ? 4. did you ever read any sober writer of another mind ? i beseech you take heed of this pernicious flattery of professors : and i beseech all the religious that love their souls , to take heed of being ensnared by such flattery , into a proud , impenitent state . and in the grief of my heart here , i must say to the people that which i expect this brother should impute to enmity to godliness . you see by this manner of teaching what you have brought your selves and your teachers to ? i have oft grieved to observe , that many look that preachers should make it their business to flatter them , and extoll them in the highest praises , and to prick others as deep , and vilifie them as much as may be ; and this is the preaching that they are best pleased with . i know that the precious and the vile must be widely differenced , and he is no preacher of the gospel that doth not do it : but when the preacher must notifie our party as precious , and cast dung on those as vile , whom uncharitable men without proof think vile , and must hide all our sins , as if to touch them were to reproach religion it self , and must aggravate theirs , even the greatest that differ from us , or else be a flatterer and temporizer ; o that such knew but what manner of spirit they are of ! you adde that i make my advice ridiculous , by forgetting that i bid men agree with the universal church . answ. i said expresly , [ in the necessary articles of faith , ] and must we therefore agree with them in all their sins and errors ? or may i not say , [ separate not from most or any christians as to things true and necessary , ] and yet [ avoid their sins , ] and [ he followers of them as they are of christ. ] alas , poor christians , that ever you should either be instructed at this rate ? or yet have need to be instructed against it ? except . xxix . answered . why , brother , did you never till now hear either familists , socinians , or the grosser quakers ( such as major cobbet writes against , and smith ) called by the name of [ a sect , ] had you no greater thing to quarrel with ? you shall call them how you will. your anger i pass by . except . xxx . answered . y●● say [ may we not justly suspect that to be bad in the worship of god , which the wicked sort do love ? ] answ. i spake not of [ what they love , but , what they are for ; ] this change of my words is unrighteous . i only advised men not to reject a good cause , because it is owned by some ( or most bad persons . ) and why did you not answer my instance of the pharisees long prayers ? we have had many religious persons or sects that have of late been some against ▪ infant baptisme , some against singing psalmes , some against ministry , and church-meetings , and some against sacraments , and instituted ordinances , and some against tythes and universities , and humane learning ; ( and mr. norton of new england told me , that with them , a church separated from a church , or was gathered out of it , rejecting their pastors , and choosing unlearned men , and would receive and endure none that had humane learning ; and that moses and aaron ( as his words were ) magistrates and ministers went down on their knees to them with tears , and could not move them to relent unto unity , or to receive a learned minister , nor get any answer from them , but [ that is your judgement , and this is ours . ] i speak his very words as neer as i can possibly , spoken to old mr. ash and me , before his ( yet living ) companion mr. broadstreet a magistrate of new england . ) now all this the common people are against . must we therefore be against magistrates , ministers , ordinances , and all , because the common people are for them . how commonly are they against the quakers , and the familists , and the infidels , and heathens , and ( with us ) the papists ? are all these therefore in the right ? let any familist deny the scripture , or the immortality of the soul , and the common people will be against them . must we deny god and christ because we live in a land where they are owned ? brother , consider , 1. that some truths the light of nature teacheth all . 2. and some common illumination teacheth multitudes of bad men . 3. and some good education , and the tradition of their fathers , and the laws of the countrey teacheth . 4. and some are better persons among those that you separate from , than many are that separate from them . let not us then be bad , and more erroneous than those whom you account the worse , and all because they are no worse . the text which you wish me to read on my knees , i have done so , and i thank you for that advice ; but i answer not your hope of retracting what i have written ( in that , ) but contrarily , 1. on my knees i pray god to forgive you such abuse of scripture . 2. and to give you a sounder mind . for the text speaketh of infidels , or denyers of christs incarnation , and maketh this the differencing character , [ every spirit that confesseth that iesus is come in the flesh is of god ; and so on the contrary . but are all these christians that you plead for separation from , and charge with idolatry , infidels , and denyers of christ ? and all the churches on earth that use a liturgie ? o brother , you use not scripture , o● the church aright . we grant that in professed christians also , the carnal mind is enmity to god , and they that are most carnal , are likest to reject the truth ; but ye● we would not wish you to measure truth by the quality of the receiver : for christ is truly christ , though many workers of iniquity shall say , we have prophesied in thy name : many hereticks have been strict and temperate , when the greater part of the orthodox have been too loose : yet that did not prove the christian doctrine to be false . except . xxxi . answered . i have little here to do but number your visible untruths in matter of fact : one is ( 21th . untruth , ) [ he flyes upon all sides that are for order in any kind , ] when i speak not a word against order , nor against any side ; but the instances of some mens extreams , which all that are for order hold not . your 22d . untruth , is [ without expressing himself whether he is for papal , presbyterian , or independent government in the church , ] and [ if this were not crime enough to seem unsetled in so necessary a point . ] what signification have i given of unsetledness ? when i have long ago publickly told the world my judgement about all this to the full , in my five disputations of church government ; and in a book called christian concord , and another called universal concord , another of confirmation , besides many more . but might not a man be setled that were ( as i am in the main ) of the same judgement as is expressed in the waldenses , or bohemian government , described by laseitius and commenius ; which taketh in the best of episcopacy , presbytery and independency , and leaveth out the worst , and the unnecessary parts ? are all the hungarian , and transilvanian , and old polonian protestants , that come neer this order , withour order , or unsetled ? 3. it is your 23d . untruth that i write very dubiously about iustification , whether we are to take it to be by faith or by works . ] when as all that i was here to say of it , is spoken very plainly ; & i have written many books to make my mind as plain as it is possible for me to speak : ( as in my confession , my disputations of iustification , my apologies , my answer to dr. barlow , and in my life of faith , which was printed before this , where i have detected a multitude of errors about justification ; and many more . ) and if you expect every time i name justification i should write the summ of all those books over again , i shall fail your expectation , though i incur your censure , who , no doubt ' had i done it , would ( justly ) have censured such repetition for tedious vanity . you adde [ we fear he is not sound in that point . ] ( answ. your fear is your best confutation , and the best assistance that you afford , to make me as wise and judicious as your self . ) [ the lord , ( say you , ) we hope in mercy to his church , and particularly to those who have been deceived into a good opinion of him , will bring this man upon his knees , that he may make a publick acknowledgement of his folly . ] answ. if that be your work , it is the same with his , that it is said you sometime wrote against : so many volumes have been written already by papists , prelatists , anabaptists , quakers , seekers , and many other sects , for this very end , to cure mens good opinion of me ( as if a man that could but think ill of me , were in a fairer hope of his salvation ) that if all these have not yet accomplish'd it , nor all the famous sermons that have been preach'd against me ; i doubt , brother , that your endeavours come too late . you may perswade some few factio●s credulous souls into hatred , but still those that love god , will love one another . and i confess of all that ever i saw , i least sear your book , as to the bringing men out of a good opinion of me , unless your name and back-bitings can do it . when you say that i say that [ the presumptuous do boast of being righteous by christs imputed righteousness , ] in conscience and honesty you should not have left out [ without any fulfilling of the conditions of the covenant of grace on their part ; ] is this just dealing ? are there no such presumptuous boasters ? or will you justifie them all , that you may but vent your wrath on me . my judgement in the foresaid point of imputation of christs righteousness , i have opened at large in the foresaid writings , the life of faith , confession , disp. of iustif , &c. except . xxxii . p. 18. answered . i said , [ the good of nature is lovely in all men as men , even in the wicked , and our enemies ; ( and therefore let them that think they can never speak bad enough of nature , take heed lest they run into excess ; ) and the capacity of the good of holiness and happiness is part of the good of nature ; ] would you think now that any man alive should find error or heresie here ? or should deny this ? yet , saith this brother , this is strange counsel to them that have learned from scripture , that every imagination is evil , &c. so that we do not see if we will allow the spirit of god to be the best counsellor , how we can speak bad enough of corrupted nature , as the nature of every man now is . ] answ. truly , brother , that man that would not have professors of religiousness in england humbled in these times , may find in your book a greater help to cure his error , than in the debater , or the eccles. politician . 1. your [ not bad enough ] is sure a hyperbole : for you can speak as bad as the scripture doth ; and if that speak not bad enough , you accuse it of deficiency or error . 2. but i suppose , you meant [ not too bad . ] what do you think then of such sayings as these following ? if you speak truth , then , 1. mans nature is not capable of grace , or of any amendment or renovation . 2. nor is it capable mediately of glory . 3. mans nature is not reasonable , nor better or nobler than a bruit . 4. the argument would not be good against murdering of any but a saint , gen. 6. 9. who so sheddeth mans blood , by man shall his blood be shed ; for in the image of god made he man. 5. no man can grow worse than he is , if he never so much despise god and all his means of grace , and commit every day adultery , murder , treason , &c. 6. then there are no degrees of evil among natural men , nor is one any worse than another . 7. then men on earth are as bad as those in hell , and as the devils . 8. yea , ten hundred thousand times worse than devils , and the damned ; for so bad you can call them . 9. then mans nature hateth good formally as good , and loveth evil formally as evil . 10. then there are in mans nature no testimonies for a deity , or the immortality of the soul , nor no conscience of good or evil , nor no principles or dispositions to common honesty or civility ; or else all these are bad . 11. then no wicked man is culpable , as sinning against any such innate light , law , or principles . 12. then natural men are as much void of power to read , consider , or do any good at all , or forbear any sin at all , even hourly murder , thest , perjury , &c. as a stone is void of power to speak or to ascend . and so that all such that are damned , are damned for not doing that which they had no more power to do , and for not forbearing that which they had no more power to forbear than a stone to speak . or else that all such power it self is evil . 13. then it may be said , that there is nothing in all the nature of man which is the work of god ; or else that gods work it self as well as mans is evil . that man is not a man , or else it is evil to be a man. 14. then there is nothing in mans nature that god can in any kind or measure love ; or else that god loveth that which is evil , even with complacence . 15. then there is nothing in mans nature which we should love in one another ; and no man is bound to love , yea , every man is bound perfectly to hate all that are not saints ; or else we must not perfectly hate , but love that which is perfectly evil . 16. then no man should love his children or friends , for any thing in them till they have grace . 17. then no natural man should love himself : or else goodness is not the proper object of rational love . 18. then if every man be armed with utmost malice against others , and persecute and destroy them , imprison , torment , murder all good men , yea kingdoms , if he were able , it would be but that which we are naturally no more able to forbear , than the fire to burn , or a stone to be heavy . 19. then seeing every man ought to look upon every natural man as perfectly evil , and a perfect enemy to all mankind , if they all murder one another , it is but the destroying of such as have no good , either natural or moral , and so are far worse than toads or serpents . 20. then every natural man hath no reason saving only gods command , ( which it is impossible for him to obey ) to forbear the murdering of himself or his children , any more than others . 21. to conclude , then man is not bonum physicum , and in metaphysicks , ens & bonum non convertuntur . you adde , [ and had not mr. baxter told us before , that he understood by flesh , only the sensitive appetite ? ] answ. this is your 24th . untruth , and a meer fiction ; and your not nothing the place was no sufficient hiding of it . i have oft in many a writing declared otherwise what i understand by [ flesh. ] viz. 1. the sensitive apprehension , imagination , appetite and passion as it is grown inordinate . and , 2. the understanding , will , and executive power as they are corrupted to a sinful inclination to the objects of sense , and become the servants of the sensitive part , and are turned from the love of god , and things spiritual , unto the fleshly interest . you proceed , [ now we see one firm reason to deny the least allowance of free will in the things of god , since those that hold it in any degree , are strongly inclined to deny original sin and corruption ; which if mr. b. hath not felt , &c. ] answ. 1. this is plainly assertive of me , and is your 25th . untruth : i never denied it ; but have in my divine life and other writings , said more to prove it , than ever you have published . 2. if no degree of free will , even physical , or civil , be to be allowed , those that deny us liberty to preach , or if it were to live , do no more in your account , than they are as absolutely necessitated to do , as your pen was to write this . and sure you will alter our course of justice , and equal murder , man-slaughter , and chance-medley , as they call it : and whereas he that killed a man by the head of his axe flying off unwillingly , had an excuse and refuge from death by the law of moses , you will allow every man that killeth another , or that hurteth , beateth , or slandereth you , this much excuse as to say , i had no more liberty of will to do otherwise , than i have to hate felicity as such : or i could no more do otherwise , than your pen can forbear writing when you move it . and out of this section of your judgement of humane nature , i ask you , 1. do you not tell the world here the reason why you write so vehemently against my principles of love ? what wonder if you should hate all men perfectly whom you count natural , and so perfectly evil ? 2. do you not tell the world , that your purpose is to speak as bad of all us and others whom you account natural , as your tongue can possibly speak , and to take this for no slander , but your duty ; seeing you think , you cannot speak bad enough of corrupted nature , as the nature of every man now is ? do you not here tell us , that how bad soever you shall say of us , you never do or can say bad enough ? but why are you so angry with me for being and doing so bad , when i have no freedom to be or to do better , any more than the fire not to burn ? yea , when you inferr all mens natures to be incurably evil , and therefore desperate ; seeing it was a capacity of holyness which i asserted , when with such abhorrence you contend against my words . except . xxxiii . p. 19. answered . 1. to be a surly , proud professor is a milder accusation far than your last . 2. but why should a preacher think that a man must speak against no sin which he is guilty of himself ? except . xxxiv . answered . 1. i understand not what you mean by saying [ if they persecute any , they contract a guilt upon all ? ] if you mean on all the people , then you think you are guilty of persecution : if you mean on all the magistrates , then the innocent , even obadiah that ●id the prophets are guilty of persecuting them . what guilt a publick persons sin bringeth on a body politick as such , is a case that i mean not to dispute with you . 2. you adde , [ we think they do a very ill office to magistrates that insinuate , it is possible for them to persecute some , and yet be innocent . ] answ. if you intimate ( as you seem plainly to do ) that i have so done , this is your 26th . untruth , and worse than a meer untruth . except . xxxv . answered . 1. doth it follow that because lawful separation is not from the same uncharitable spirit , that persecution is , therefore unlawful separation is not ? 2. you force me to confute you by instances which yet you abhor to hear . you say [ persecution in no case can consist with love ? ] do you think your self that all the common-wealths-men , the anabaptists , the separatists , the independents , or whoever , that had a hand in the order for sequestring all ministers , that kept not their daies of humiliation and thanksgiving for the blood of scotland , had no love at all remaining ? or that none of this was persecution ? nor yet the ejecting of them that refused the engagement ? nor yet the imprisonment and banishment of the london ministers , and the death of mr. love and gibbons ? to pass by the scotch war it self , and all the rest . do not the sectaries think that the presbyterians did or would have persecuted them ? and did not the presbyterians think that the sectaries persecuted them ? do you think that in the contentions , with the donatists , the novatians , and many other professors of strictness , the parties that persecuted had no love , and so no true grace remaining ? truly , brother , i like persecution as little as most men living do , and have written more against it than you have done ; ( forgive this pride ) but i cannot be so uncharitable as to condemn all the sects , and parties , and persons , as utterly graceless that have been drawn to persecute one another ; when i consider how few sects in the world have escaped the guilt ; and how far pievishness and seeming interest hath carried them . you know , i suppose , that the munster anabaptists themselves , did not forbear it . the lutherans have oft persecuted the calvinists ; and the arminians in holland thought that the calvinists persecuted them , and denied them liberty of conscience : even the new england godly magistrates and ministers are accused of it by the quakers and the followers of mrs. hutchinson and gortin . and i would you knew what spirit you are of , whether you have none of the same spirit your self ? would you not have hindered the printing of this book of mine , if you could have done it ? and then would you not have hindered me from preaching the same thing , if you could have done it ? and is not this to silence that teaching which is against your judgement ? is not that spirit , which hath all the vehement slanders and revilings which your book aboundeth with , and which earnestly prayeth god to rebuke me , of the same kind think you , as to uncharitableness , with the persecuting spirit ? and is this in you inconsistent with all love ? 3. it is your 27th . untruth , that ( after many virulent expressions ) i am forced to confess , &c. my constant expression of my judgement , and true stating of my sense , is no [ forced confession ] of any thing : much less did i ever confess that no persecution can consist with love ; but have even there said much to evince the contrary . except . xxxvi . answered . i put ten questions to convince men of the sin of that separation which i speak against : and all his answer to them , is but this , [ he asks many questions about church-communion : but he knows the proverb , and let that answer him . ] answ. but is this impartial enquiring into the truth ? or is this kind of writing fit to satisfie sober men ? except . xxxvii . answered . your 28th . untruth is next , [ he taketh it ill that we should think the church of christ to consist but of a few , ] when i have no such word or sense ; but my self profess there to believe it ; and only contradict them that would rob christ of almost all those few , and make them incomparably fewer than they be . you adde , [ but when he saies , the belief of this is the next way to infidelity . ] answ. that 's your 29th . untruth ; i said no such thing ; i only admonish you to observe that your abusive lessening the number is your way to infidelity ; and i proved it , which you pass by : he that can believe to day , that christ came to dye for no more in all the world , than the separatists are , is like very shortly to believe that he is not the christ , the saviour of the world , and the lamb of god that takes away the sins of the world. when you adde that [ i cast reproach on the word of god that affirmeth this expresly , ] it is but another of your untruths , and an abuse of the word of god. except . xxxviii . answered . when i tell you of some that have run through all sects , and turned infidels , you adde another untruth , that i thus reproach a whole party with the miscarriages of some few , unless you mean by a whole party , all that are of that opinion which i confure : for all the separatists are not for it . and so what ever opinion in the world i shall gain-say , you may say that i contradict a whole party , that is , the party that holdeth that opinion . but , brother , doth every one reproach you , that telleth you of your danger , and would save you from infidelity and hell ? if the common people should tell you that you reproach their whole party , when you preach to them of the tendency and effects of sin and error , you would easily see the fault in them . your talk of a prostituted conscience i forgive : but if you must not be told of the dangerous tendency of an unsound doctrine , lest you seem to be reproached , you will leave your selves in a sad condition , when your cure is rejected as a reproach . except . xxxix . answered . very good . you grant that [ if the same spirit be restored to the same words , they will be as good as they were at the beginning . ] but , what spirit was that , brother , that first took up the forms and words that now we speak of ? it was not only a spirit of miracles , tongues , or supernatural inspiration . why do you say then that [ no man can restore the same spirit to them , and we cannot believingly expect that god will do it , because we have no promise for it ] it was but the spirit of illumination and sanctification ; and have not all christs members this same spirit ? judge by rom. 8. 9. 1 cor. 12. eph. 4. 3 , 4 , 5 , to 16. you have here then by consequence given up your whole cause . you grant that [ if the same spirit be restored which first used the prayers , and responses and praises of the liturgie , it is very true , that they may be used now : but the same spirit is in all the truly faithful ; ergo , by all the truly faithful they may be used now . ] except . xl. p. 20. answered . you say , [ it is unbecomingly done in mr. baxter to compare cromwell to the tyrant maximus , who dedicated a flattering book to his son . ] answ. 1. maximus is by most historians made so good a man , of himself , that i more feared lest many would have made me a praiser of cromwell by the comparison . 2. he is called a tyrant , because he was a usurper ; and do you think that cromwell was not so ; when he pull'd down both king , parliament , and rump ? nay , maximus was chosen in england by the souldiers at a time when pulling down and setting up by souldiers was too common ; and when his predecessors had little better title than himself : therefore i pray you judge not too roughly of maximus : but cromwell did usurp at a time when the case was otherwise ; our monarchy was hereditary by the undoubted constitution and laws of the land ; and our parliament by an act was to sit till they had dissolved themselves , and he had by solemn promises obliged himself to the parliament as their servant , and had fought against and kill'd the king , among other things , on this pretence that he fought against his parliament , and would have pulled them down ; which thing he actually and finally did himself . sir , god is not well pleased with the justifying or palliating of these things , , though men may be tempted to do it in faction , and for a divided interest . 3. it is publickly known that i did openly and constantly speak the same things all the time of cromwell's usurpation : why then is it unbecoming now ? among other places , see my book of infant baptisme , pag. 147 to 152. and 269 , 270 , &c. where the passages spoke with caution are yet fuller than all these that displease you : if cromwell's party endured me then , cannot you endure me to say one quarter as much now ? 4. what if i had done otherwise ? shall such a suffering preacher as you teach us all , that its unbecoming to repent ? 5. that i dedicated a flattering book to his son , is your 31st . untruth . for common sense here will discern that you distinguish between the book and the dedication . and two books at once i directed to him . the books were one against popery , and the other against the english prelacy , and re-ordination , and the imposing of the liturgie and ceremonies ; and there is not one syllable of his son in all the book , save in that dedication . nor did i ever see him , speak to him , or write to him else , nor hear from him . but only hearing that he was disposed to peace , and against such turbulent church-destroying waies as you here plead for , i thought it my duty then to urge him to do that which was right and just . except . xli . answered . having my self been bred up under some tutors , and with acquaintance , that kept up a reputation of great learning and wisdom , by crying down the puritans as unlearned fellows , when themselves were more unlearned than i will here express , on the by i said that i had known such , and also that there were some such now , who having clumsie wits that cannot feel so fine a thred , nor are capable of mastering difficulties , do censure what they understand not : and that many that should be conscious of the dulness and ignorance of their fumbling , unfurnished brains , have no way to keep up the reputation of their wisdom , but to tell men , o such a one hath dangerous errors , &c. ] to this he saith , that if ben. johnson or hudibras had writ it , — but for learned mr. b. mortified mr. b. judicious mr. baxter , to fall into such levity , will i hope warn all to take heed how they over-value themselves , left god in judgement leave them to themselves , as he hath evidently done this poor man , &c. and he concludeth with an invitation of me , [ to a second and more seasonable retractation . ] answ. i heartily thank you for your pity , and for any zeal of god , though it be not according to knowledg ; and for my retractation , i suppose you would have called it a third . you quarrelled not with my suspension of my aphorisms of justification . and for my retractation of my political aphorisms , i have no more to say to you and others of your mind , but that you would better consult your own peace and other mens , and your innocency too , if you would meddle with your own matters , or with that only which concerneth you . and to conclude , 1. i unfeignedly forgive you all the revilings and other injuries of this your book . 2. i intreat you to review what is against god and his church , against faith , love , and peace , and to repent of it in time . 3. i beseech you to give over this pernicious flattery of professors , and daubing over their ignorance , injudiciousness , pride , and divisions ▪ 4. i intreat you to be more impartial towards dissenters , and let not your judgment be blinded by your passions . 5. to help you to impartiality , i beseech you consider how you tempt the bishops to think it no harm , to silence men that bold and do such things as you have vented and done in this book . 6. i beseech you to that end , better to study your self , and to know what manner of spirit you are of . besides all the intimated untruths , here are 30 or 31 gross untruths in matter of fact which i have set before you . for my self , it is not the least part of my non-conformity , that i dare not lie , by publick declaration to say , i assent and consent where i do not . now shall a man aggravate the crime of such things as these , and yet do what you do himself ? 7. i do solemnly profess to you , that i feel no malice against you , much less a desire of your hurt in all this that i say which is against your judgment , but an unfeigned love to you , and tenderness of your person . 8. lastly , i again protest against the injustice of any one that shall charge your opinions and miscarriages on the non-conformists ; when i know not two presbyterians or meer independants of your mind ; though too many so called in england , have enclined to unjust separations . and we are no more concerned in the opinions of them that are not protestants , though they also go under the name of non-conformists , than in the opinions of the papists , who are called recusants . and to conclude , i assure you , that if you write any more at the rates as you have done in this antidote , i shall give you the last word , as not intending to confute you , if you shall maintain that light is darkness ; nor plead any more a cause against you , which needeth not much argumentation as to sober judgements , but as to interests , passions , and byassed wills , which are otherwise moved than by truth and reason , and have but one eare ; and i fear not to encourage you before-hand by telling you , that you shall see that i have somewhat else to do . for it is a truth that i tell you with grief , that he that will take out of your book , 1. all the false doctrines . 2. all the gross untruths . 3. and all the impotent revilings , together with the professed end or design , to undeceive them that have a good opinion of me ; will leave so little , as may contained in a very narrow room . and he that seeketh in it for any thing that savoureth much of judgement , repentance , love , unity , or peace , must have other eyes than mine , or be disappointed . and i wonder not at that , when the sound principles of love , unity and peace are the things that have cast you into this displeasure , and which you write against . for where ever the principles of christian love and peace seem intolerable , there are such contrary principles as will bring forth contrary effects , which will prove indeed intolerable in the end . as there is nothing in this world which god doth design more gloriously to manifest and magnifie than his love , and nothing which he so much obligeth mankind to , especially believers , as the love of him and one another , so there is nothing which the great enemy of god and man doth so much hate , and seek to extinguish ; fighting by many sorts of weapons neither against small nor great , in comparison of divine and christian love . and his common way is to present the persons to us as unlovely , or odious , whom he would have us hate . and as their own predominant carnality and impiety doth give him full advantage with the ungodly , to make first that holyness which is contrary to them odious , and consequently holy persons , and god himself ; so with those that really love god , the tempter findeth this double advantage to make their brethren seem odious to them . 1. the great weakness and error of their judgements , sometimes about the things in difference , and sometimes about the persons through unacquaintedness ; whereby , either through mistake of the cause or of the man , they easily deny or extenuate all the amiable goodness which is in him , and think that the love of god , and of truth and godliness obligeth them to hate their brother , as a supposed enemie to both . and yet while they openly declare to the world , an aversation and a want of love , and a desire to make the person seem odious to others , by their obloquy , detraction and backbiting accusations they make themselves believe that all this is indeed no effect of hatred or malice , but of love , because they can still say , that they desire unfeignedly that the man were of their mind and way , which they call a desiring of his conversion and conviction , and of his own and the churches good . and thus not only the hereticks of his time , but the very jews were lovers of paul , and of other apostles : no doubt but they desired that which they thought was their conversion and their good ; and what hatred so great that may not have such a cover ; not only a feigned pretence , but a real , though erroneous desire . gardiner and bonner exprest the like , and no doubt , did really wish the martyrs had been of their mind ; and no doubt , but many that wish'd this , thought they wish'd but the persons and the churches good . the burning zeal which hath so much depopulated much of the world , was in many a zeal of god , though not according to knowledge . he that can transform himself into an angel of light , and his ministers into ministers of righteousness and free grace , no doubt , can teach them to persecute men in love , and to excommunicate them in love : to revile others in love , to hinder the preaching of the gospel in love , to afflict , or to divide the church in love. alas , how much is the serpent too subtile , for the understanding that trusteth to it self , and is not illuminated and guided by the spirit of light and love : how easily can he hide from us , that in our brother which we should love , and magnifie and multiply his faults into odious crimes , and transform his very virtues into vices , and his rightest judgement into errors . in this , brother , i thank god that my principles give me that advantage of you , that i think you not odious , but weak . 2. the other yet greater advantage that satan findeth , to kill the love of most , is selfishness ; one selfish man thinks that he may well account him bad and odious , who is against his worldly wealth and honour : and another thinks him bad and odious , who is against his learned or religious reputation , and would detect his ignorance or vice . another thinks him bad and odious , who is against his opinions , and the words or manner of worshipping god , which he is confident are best ; and he that hath once suffered spiritual pride to extoll his own understanding and his piety , will make that so far the measure of his censures , that all shall be thought so far to swerve from truth and godliness as they swerve from him . but if we should suffer much by others , and that for a cause which we take to be the cause of god , how easie is it for selfishness to stir up those passions , which shall blind our understandings , so far as to see no good at all scarce in them that we suffer by , or to extenuate all that is lovely in them ; yea , to think hardly of almost all others of their judgement and party , for their sakes : and if we think we may once call them persecutors , yea , or but such as conform to the persecutors waies , we think it 〈…〉 yeth almost any thing which we say 〈…〉 to make them odious : as th●se on the 〈…〉 side think they are justified in all 〈…〉 may say or do against m●n i●●hey 〈…〉 . 〈…〉 are men from loving their enemies , 〈◊〉 ●●●ssing them that curse them , and doing good to them that hate them , and praying for them that despightfully use them , ( or falsely accuse them , ) and persecute them , that they are hardly kept from hating those that love them , and cursing those that bless them , and hurting those that would do them good , and falsely accusing and despightfully using and persecuting those that pray for them : and yet lest they should not be flattered in their sin , and that yet they may judge themselves the children of our heavenly father , they will do all this as acts of love , to the church and truth , and to the persons souls ; and will love them , as is said , with a hurting , a reviling , a slandering , a cursing , and a hating and malicious love. o that the god of love would pitty and undeceive the selfish and passionate sort of professed christians ! and teach them to know what manner of spirit they are of ! o that he would rebuke the evil spirits that are gone fo●th ! the spirit of cove●o●sness and pride : 〈◊〉 hypocrisie , and religious imagery ! o● self-conceitedness ! of malice and wrath ! of back-biting and false accusing , before that both christianity and humanity be turned into devilisme , ( 2. tim. 3. 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ) and earth be more conformable to hell ! o that the spirit of light would make us of one mind , and the spirit of love would mortifie both mens malignant and religious passions , contentiousness and malice , and cause us to love our neighbours as our selves ! that as the envious and striving wisdom from beneath , hath caused confusion , and every evil work , so the wisdom from above , which is first pure , and then peaceable , gentle , and easie to be intreated , might bring forth mercy and good fruits , without partiality and hypocrisie ; that we might edifie the body of christ in love , ( eph. 4. 16. ) and frustrate the hopes of the enemies of our peace , who wait for our total dissolution , and triumph already in our divisions , ( when it is their own mill which grindeth us into powder , ) but god can make their oven to bake us into a more christian and salubrious consistency , ( that i may use ignatius his ●llegory , ) but it must be first by ●ermenting us with unfeigned love ; and then we shall be lovely in his ●ight , and the god of love and peace will be with us , 2 cor. 13. 11. amen . postscript . that the excepter may yet further be convinced that it is not any party of men called independents or anabaptists as such , that i here speak against ; as i did in my opposed book declare that i thought them both , and all others that hold the foundation , and disclaim it not by heresie , or wicked lives , to be such as the churches should receive into their communion ; and that it is their duty to hold communion in the same assemblies , notwithstanding their difference ; and that it is not the opinions which denominate them , that i write against ; but only the love-killing and dividing principles which are among them , which make them fly with censure and alienation from their brethren that are as meet for church-communion as they ; and oft break them into pieces among themselves ; so do i yet again here declare the same ; and not only so , but that if it were in my power , when their communion with others cannot be procured , they should yet be tolerated in their separation it self , and enjoy communion with themselves alone , in their separated congregations , under the laws of peace , being not tolerated to turn their preaching or worship into a reviling and reproaching of the orthodox , to the destruction of christian love : and i should not doubt but the communion of the orthodox churches maintained in constant synods , together with the special countenance of the christian magistrate , and the daily experience of believers ( which would still make the aged sort forsake them ) would suffice better than violent severities to repress the evil , and to give victorious truth opportunity to do its proper work . and to silence this calumny yet more , i do renew the profession which i have often published , that my own opinion is so much for independency , as that i think , no church is made , by god , to be a ruler to other churches , under the name of a mother church , or a metropolitane , or patriarchal , but that all these are humane forms ; and that councils are not the proper governours of the particular pastors ; but are for communion of pastors and churches directly , by way of consultation , consent and agreement ; ( as i have heretofore declared , that bishop usher professed his judgement to me . ) though i confess that the pastors in council are still the guides of the people , as well as singly at home , and by their consent lay a stronger governing obligation on them ; and that the general law of unity and concord doth consequently bind the several pastors , to concurr in all things lawful , ( consideratis considerandis ) with the confenting churches . and even dr. hammond is for independency so far as to say , that [ every such regular assembly of christians under a bishop , ( such as timothy was ) an oeconomus set over them by christ , was the church of the living god. ] though he adde [ such again every larger circuit under the metropolitane , &c. ] yet he confesseth , [ and such all the particular churches of the whole world , considered together under the supream head , christ iesus , dispensing them all by himself , and administring them severally , not by any one oeconomus ; but by the several bishops , as inferiour heads of unity to the several bodies , so constituted by the several apostles in their plantati●●s each of them having an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a several distinct commission from christ immediately and subordinate to none but the supream donor or plenepotentiary . ] so far he ; on 1 tim. 3. 1● . e. to this do but adde what bishop bilson of subjection largely sheweth , and other bishops as well as he , that metropolitanes and patriarks are not of divine but humane institution , ad accidental to the divine constitution of churches ; and also what ignatius saith , of the unity of churches , and description of a bishop , that [ to every church there was one altar , and one bishop with the presbyters and deacons , ] and so every communicating body , or congregation that had an altar , had a bishop , ( as mr. m●de on this of ignatius sheweth ; ) and then you will see how far independency is owned by others as well as by me . and for further silencing the calumny , let it be noted , that the churches in new-england are commonly called , independent , or congregational , and yet they are against separation , and do find by experience that separation is as perillous a thing to independent free churches , as it is to diocesane churches , and somewhat more , because they use not outward force to preserve their unity , and because one single congregation is sooner dissolved by division than such a thing as a diocesane church is . and therefore no men should be more willing to suppress dividing principles and passions than the independents , both because they are most charged with them , and with all our sects and confusio●● , and because they are not the least in danger of them . and that the new england churches are against the separation which hath been commonly known by the name of brownisme , i will give you these following evidences . 1. even mr. robinson himself , a part of whose church began the plantation at plimouth , though he was one of those that was called a semi-separatist , yet hath written for the lawfulness of hearing in our english conformable parish ▪ churches : and in his letter to his people in new-england ( in mortons memorial ) he hath these honest observable passages . [ how imperfect and lame is the work of grace in that person who wants charity to cover a multitude of offences ? — neither are you to be exhorted to this grace only upon the common grounds of christianity , which are , that persons ready to take offence , either want charity to cover offences , or wisdom duely to weigh humane frailties ; or lastly , are gross , though close hypocrites , as christ our lord teacheth , mat. 7. 1 , 2 , 3. as indeed in my own experience , few or none have been found which sooner give offence than such as easily take it , neither have they ever proved sound and profitable members in societies who have nourished this touchy hum●ur . ] to these he addeth special reasons from themselves . mr. browne accusing the ministers as being separatists , and would be anabapists , &c. the ministers answered , that they were neither separatists nor anabaptists , they did not separate from the church of england , nor from the ordinances of god there , but only from the corruptions and disorders there , &c. old mr. wilson pastor of boston , being desired by all the elders of the churches assembled at his house , that ( on his dying bed ) he would solemnly declare to them , what he conceived to be those sins , which provoked the displeasure of god against the countrey , told them , that he had long feared these sins following as chief among others which god was greatly provoked by , 1. separation . 2. anabaptisme . 3. corahisme ; when people rise up , as corah , against their ministers and elders , as if they took too much upon them , when indeed they do but rule for christ , and according to christ ; yet it is nothing for a brother to stand up and oppose without scripture or reason , the doctrine and word of the elder , saying , i am not satisfied , &c. and hence if he do not like the administration , ( be it baptisme or the like ) he will then turn his back upon god and his ordinances , and go away , &c. and ( saith he ) for our neglect of baptizing the children of the church , those that some call grand-children , i think god is provoked by it . 4. another i take to be the making light of , and not subjecting to the authority of synods , without which the churches cannot long subsist . and so for the magistrates being gallio like , not caring for these things , or else not using their power and authority , for the maintenance of the truth and gospel , and ordinances , &c. morton , p. 133. 184. and among the poems there recorded of him , this is part , firm stood he 'gainst the familist and antinomian spirit strong ; he never lov'd the separatist , nor yet the anabaptists throng . neither the tolerators strein , nor quakers spirit could he brook , nor bow'd to the morellian train ; nor childrens right did over-look , p. 186. and , pag. 195. in the poems on their famous mitchell it followeth . the quaker trembling at his thunder , fled , and with caligula resum'd his bed : he by the motions of a nobler spirit clear'd men , and made their notions swine inherit . the munster goblin by his holy flood exorcis'd , like a thin phantasma stood : brown's babel shatter'd by his lightning , fell , and with confused horror pack'd to hell. let not the brazen schismatick aspire ▪ lot's leaving sodom , left them to the fire . but the fullest evidence is the work of the new-england synod , 1662. who determined of two great points of church-practice , so as greatly tendeth to reconcile them to all the moderate presbyterians , and other peaceable christians . the one is 2. ▪ that members of the visible church according to scripture , are confederate visible believers , in particular churches , and their infant-seed ; that is , children in minority , whose next parents , one or both , are in covenant . ▪ the case of christians that are of no particular church is not here medled with ) . 3. and that [ the infant-seed of such when grown up , are personally under the watch , discipline , and government of the church ] . 4. that these adult persons are not to be admitted to full communion , meerly because they are and continue members , without such further qualifications as the word of god requireth thereunto . 5. that church-members who were admitted in minority , understanding the doctrine of faith , and publickly professing their assent thereto , not scandalous in life , and solemnly owning the covenant before the church , wherein they give up themselves and their children to the lord , and subject themselves to the government of christ in his church , their children are to be baptised . ] as to the points themselves , having written a treatise on the subject , ( under the name of confirmation ) and therein distinctly shewed my opinion in reconciling terms , ( though it may seem stricter than these propositions , and more inclining to the dissenters in some things ) i shall say nothing of it here . but by this it is visible , that the new-england synod do not only exclude the practice of gathering churches out of churches ( which was the great contest in england between the assembly and the congregational party ) ; but they provide that not so much as any particular persons that were baptized in their churches in infancy , shall be made church-members de novo ( unless by removing from one church to another ) , but shall be accounted members till they apostatize notoriously or are excommunicated : and so shall their children after them succeed by the way of baptism into the church , and they will have no other ordinary church-door but baptism . and so gathering churches of baptized persons will cease , unless it be in a ravelled state , when the old churches being dissolved , believers are to embody themselves anew . and mr. davenport and a few more , seeing that by this way their churches would fall into the way of england and other churches , by a succession of members growing up from infancy ( and not by making them up of new adult enterers , as the anabaptists do , ) did oppose himself by writing against the synod , which by some of them is largely answered : wherein they tell us that there were n●t ten in a synod of above seventy that did in any thing vote on the negative , and not above three against the third proposition , which carryeth the cause . they frequently disclaim separation : they cite allen and shephard p. 33. as advising for the reformation of such churches as our parishes , that they be acknowledged true churches , and then called to repentance and reformation , and a select number of those that agree to it , being fit for the sacrament , &c. to be admitted , and go in the congregational way , pag. 42. they cite cotton , holin . of chur. mem. p. 92. saying , [ neither among us doth irregeneration alone keep any from church-fellowship with us , unless it be accompanied with such fruits as are openly scandalous , and de convincingly manifest irregeneration . ] they prudently tell us , p. 45. that [ the lord hath not set up churches only that a few old christians may keep one another warm while they live , and then carry away the church into the cold grave with them when they die ; but that they might with all care and advantages nurse up still successively another generation of subjects to christ , &c. ] and that [ we may be very injurious to christ as well as to the souls of men , by too much straitening and narrowing the bounds of his kingdom , or visible church on earth . ] citing paraeus , ( in mat. 13. ) saying , [ in church-reformation it is an observable truth , that those that are for too much strictness , do more hurt than profit the church . ] abundance more to the same purpose i might collect . and seeing they take children growing up , to be members under church-discipline according to their capacities , let it be considered soberly , whether this doth not intimate to us , that discipline it self must not be exercised with the hurtful rigor that some expect ? for i would intreat the ridgeder sort , if they are parents , but to tell me , at what age , and for what faults , and for want of grace , they would have their own children excommunicated ? and when they have done , whether they will also proceed to a family excommunication of them for the same causes ? they adde a sixth prop. for the baptizing of the children of those that by death or extraordinary providence have been inevitably hindered from publickly acting as aforesaid , and yet have given the church cause in judgement of charity to look at them , as so qualified , and such as had they been called thereto would have so acted . and they adde a seventh propos. that [ the members of orthodox churches being sound in the faith , and not scandalous in life , and presenting due testimony thereof ; these occasionally coming from one church to another , may have their children baptized in the church whither they come , by virtue of communion of churches ; but if they remove their habitation , they ought orderly to covenant and subject themselves to the government of christ , in his church where they settle their abode , and so their children to be baptized : it being the churches duty to receive such to communion , so far as they are regularly capable of the same . ] so that they provide for the reception of all meet persons . but the chief thing observable is that in propos. 5. where the qualifications or description of a just entitleing profession is laid down , as consisting in no more than these four things , 1. understanding the doctrine of faith. 2. the publick profession of assent thereto . 3. not to be scandalous in life . 4. and solemnly owning the covenant before the church , wherein they give up themselves and their children before the lord. they require no other proofs of regeneration ; no● any particular account how they were converted ; nor what further signs of it they can shew . and , for my own part , i never dissented from those called congregational , in england , in the two great points from which their churches are denominated , viz. 1. that regularly they should consist but of so many as are capable of personal communion , which they call a congregation . 2. and that this congregation is not jure divino under the spiritual government of any superior church , as metropolitane , patriarchal , &c. but my chief dissent from them hath been , in their going beyond independency , and too many of them coming too neer to separation , 1. by making other tearms of mens title to church-member-ship , than these here recited by the new-england synod , and then the understanding , sober profession of assent and consent to the baptismal covenant is . 2. and for their gathering new churches in the several parishes , as if there had been no churches there before , and the members not gathered by them , were not the subjects of any church-discipline ; neither the children nor adult . and the reasons why i have ever dissented from them in these points , have been these . 1. because i find that the contrary was the way of scripture-times and all antiquity . and that the apostles still received members , upon a sudden and bare profession of belief and consent to the baptismal covenant , with the penitent renunciation of the flesh , the world , and the devil . and all ages since have held this course , and made baptisme the church-door . but i shall heartily joyn with any brethren that will endeavour herein to save the church , from that state of imagery and dead formality , which papists and all carnal hypocrites have mortified gods ordinances , and unspeakably injured the churches by , and are still working every ordinance of god that way : all good men should labour to recover religion and christian profession to an understanding seriousness . i will here insert the words of a most learned and high prelatist , to shew you that whoever is against this course in practice , no sober men can deny it in principles : eldersfield of bapt. pag. 48. marg . [ upon score of like reason whereto , and for such after-tryal , may have been taken up in the christian church that examination which did sift the constancy or rather consistency of those that had been taken in young , to their presumed grounds , that if they wavered , they might be known and discharged ; or if they remained constant , they might by imposition of hands receive what the common name of that ceremony did import , of their faith ( at least a sign of ) confirmation : vasques hath from erasmus ( in the preface to his paraphrase on the gospels ) a word of most wholsome , grave , and prudent advice , that those who were baptized young , when they begin to write man , should be examined , an ratum habeant id quod in catechismo ipsorum nomine promissum fuit ? quod si ratum non habeant , ab ecclesiae jurisdictione liberos manere , in 3 part . thom. disp. 154. to. 2. c. 1. 2. if they did then stand to what their sureties had presumed for them , if not , they should be discarded : most necessary ! and of unimaginable benefit ; ( but not if it be turned into cursory imagery , ) such a scrutiny would shake off thousands of rotten hypocrites , and purge the church of many such infidel-believers ( or professors , ) upon whose dirty faces a little holy water was sprinkled when they knew not what it was ; but they no more mind the true sanctification appertaining , than turks or saracens , ( who shall rise up in judgement against their washed filthyness , ) or than those of whom st. peter , [ it is happened unto them according to the true proverb , the dog to his vomit , and the washed swine to wallow in the mire ; ] such discipline of awakened reason is that which the world groans for , ( and groan it may for any remedy that the formal hypocrites will either apply or endure . ) that men would become christians ! o that the truth of faith , and the power of true christian belief might be seen in the hearts and lives of those , that knowingly put the neck in christs yoak . ] so far eldersfield . see also dr. patrick of baptisme . dr. hammonds words i have recited after my treat . of confirmation ; they are very worthy of consideration . but to leave this digression , 2. my second reason why i dissent from them that will have other tearms of church-entrance than baptisme , and a stricter exaction of a title to membership than a professed affent and consent to the tearms of that covenant ; is because , if in our very church-title and constitution we forsake the scriptural and primitive tearms , we are liable to the exceptions of all dissenters , and cannot justifie our selves against their accusations ; nor well answer them that say , it is long of us , and not of them , that they communicate not with us . 3. because we shall unavoidably injure many of christs members , and keep those out whom he will own , and would have us own ; to the great injury of him and them . 4. because we shall lessen and weaken the church of christ , which is already so small , and so be injurious to it . 5. because we shall be alwaies at uncertainty , on what tearms to go : for if once we leave gods prescribed tearms , we shall never know where to fix : but every pastor will examine as he please , and form such covenant-tearms as are agreeable to the measure of his own private judgement and charity : and even among congregational men , we see already that the tearms of mens titles do vary , as the pastors ( or congregations ) differ in point of strictness . 6. and this layeth a certain foundation for perpetual dissentions and divisions ; when there are no certain tearms of concord : and there is no union when we depart from christs authority . and it is not in vain that christ himself prescribed a form of baptizing ; and if all his churches since the apostles daies , have brought us down that creed or those articles of faith , and form of baptizing used universally among them , new waies , and various waies , ( even as various as mens degrees of prudence and charity ) will never be the tearms of the churches unity . 7. and i am very much the more confirm'd against this extream by my long experience . having made it much of my work to know the minds and lives of all the people of the great parish where i lived , and since that , having conversed with many of the inferior rank , both for estate , and profession of piety , i have found that there is much more good in a great number of those , that are not noted openly for special professors of religiousness , than i did before believe . for no man is usually noted now for religious , in this stricter sense , 1. whose knowledge hath not some readiness of expression , in conference , and in prayer . 2. and who doth not come to private meetings , and associate himself with the stricter and forwarder sort of professors . but there are abundance of things which may hinder some serious weak christians from both these . dulness of natural parts , and want of good education , and use , and teaching , and company , may keep mens parts and utterance very low . and some young christians for want of former use , at their first true conversion , cannot speak sense , in the very fundamentals , which yet they have a saving sense and knowledge of , ( but are like infants , ) and their prayers have little better expressions , than abba father , and the unutterable groans of the spirit . and some never had the opportunity of profitable company ; and some are hindered from such converse by bashfulness ; and some by poverty and business , or distance ; and some by the restraint of parents , husbands , masters , &c. and some by ill company , and scandall , may have a prejudice against those religious people who are neerest to them ; who yet may be real lovers of christ. having found in many called common people more knowledge ( though not beter utterance ) than i expected , and more trust in christ , and more desire to be better , and love to those that are better , and more willingness to be taught ( crowding in publick or private when they have a full opportunity , and affectionately hearing the closest preaching , ) i am grown the more fearful of wronging christ , his church and them , by numbering such with those that are without , when they are baptized persons , that never were proved to have apostatized , nor to have lived impenitently in any sin so gross , as the back-bitings , proud-censoriousness and divisions of too many religiouser people are . 8. to which may be added the sad experience of this age of the dreadful miscarriages of the more noted sort of professors , turning infidels , ranters , quakers , socinians , antinomians , and too many scandalous in life ; and such as have destroyed order , government , unity , & reformation , when there was scarce an enemie able to hurt it much besides themselves : which is no dishonour to the profession of holyness , much less to christ and holyness it self ; but it seemeth to me a notable rebuke of our common over-valuing the meer parts and utterance , and extemporate performances of the people , and of ministers flattering such professors , and over-looking all of christ which is in many , that have had no such helps for gifts and utterance as they . 2. the second point in which the new-england synod agreed was , the stated consociation of churches , and use of synods , and herein , saith the defence , p. 99. there appeared no dissent or dissatisfaction in the synod . where they adde also ( as to the point of separation , ) [ we never said nor thought , that there should be a withdrawing from other churches upon differences , errors or offences of an inferiour and dubious nature , yea , though continued in : we are far enough from hastyness or harshness in that matter , being professed adversaries to a spirit of sinful and rigid separation . ] and that apostolical man mr. iohn eliot , hath printed a draught for stated synods , ( for counsel and concord , which is their proper use , ) which will go far enough to satisfie moderate men in that point , and saith more for such synods than ever i said . 2. having said thus much of the iudgement of congregational men in new-england against separation , i shall adde somewhat of the second assertion , that it concerneth the congregational party , as much in point of interest , to be against it , as any sort of men whatsoever . 1. because their churches have no other bond of concord ( here ) but voluntary consent ; and if that break , they are dissolved . 2. because their members being usually neither , so low as to be ignorant of matters of controversie , nor so high as to be able solidly to resolve them , are most like to be quarrelsome , and fall into divisions . and honest people that have a zeal of god , and for truth and unity , and not knowledge enough to guide it steadily , are likey to contend and trouble one another , than either they that are more careless , and have less zeal , ( and therefore like swine will leave such pearls to any that will take them up , ) or they that have sound knowledge to guide their zeal . 3. and the power which too many of them give the people , over the pastors and themselves , will do much to increase these divisions , and cause their dissolution . and that this is the sense of new-england , appeareth , 1. in their banishing lyford first , and the two brownes after , lest they should be divided about the prelacy and liturgie . 2. by their common judgement against dangerous toleration . 3. by the history of mrs. hutchinsons business in sir henry uane's daies . 4. by the history of mr. williams business . 5. and of gorton's . 6. and of the quakers of late ; all which i shall say no more of , but only transcribe some of the words of morton's memorial , about mr. williams , p. 78 , &c : [ in the year 1634. mr. roger williams removed from plimouth to salem , he had lived about three years at plimouth , where he was well accepted as an assistant to mr. ralph smith then pastor there ; but by degrees venting of divers of his own singular opinions , and seeking to impose them upon others , he not finding such a concurrence as he expected , des●red his dismission — foreseeing that he would run the same course of rigid separation and anabaptistry as mr. john smith the separatist at amsterdam had done , the church consented to his dismission ; and such as did adhere to him were also dismissed , or removed with him , or not long after him , to salem . — but he having in one years time filled that place with principles of rigid separation , and tending to anabaptistry ; the prudent magistrates of the massachusets jurisdiction , sent to the church of salem , desiring them to forbear calling him to office ; which they not hearkening to , was a cause of much disturbance . — he being in office , proceeded more vigorously to vent many dangerous opinions , as , that it is not lawful for an unregenerate man to pray ; nor to take an oath ; and in special , not the oath of fidelity to the civil government ; nor was it lawful for a godly man to have communion , either in family-prayer , or in an oath , with such as they judged unregenerate . and therefore he himself refused the oath of fidelity , and taught others so to do . also that it was not lawful so much as to hear the godly ministers of england , when any occasionally went thither ; and therefore he admonished any church-members that had done so , as of heynous sin . also he spake dangerous words against the patent which was the foundation of the government of the massachusets colony . also he affirmed that the magistrate had nothing to do in matters of the first table , but only the second : and that there should be a general and unlimited toleration of all religions : and for any man to be punished for any matters of his conscience , was persecution . — staying at home in his own house , he sent a letter , which was read in the publick church-assembly , to give them notice , that if the church of salem would not separate , not only from the churches of england , but the churches of new-england too , he would separate from them . the more prudent and sober part of the church being amazed at his way , could not yield to him : whereupon he never came to the church-assembly more , professing separation from them as antichristian : and not only so , but he withdrew all private religious communion from any that would hold communion with the church there . insomuch as that he would not pray , nor give thanks at meals with his own wife , nor any of his family , because they went to the church-assemblies . divers of the weaker sort of the church-members , that had been throughly levened with his opinions , of which number were divers women that were zealous in their way , did by degrees fall off to him : insomuch as that he kept a meeting in his own house , unto which a numerous company did resort , both on the sabbath day and at other times , by way of separation from , and opposition to the church-assembly there : which the prudent magistrates understanding , and seeing things grow more and more towards a general division and disturbance ; after all other means used in vain , they passed a sentence of banishment against him , out of the massachusets colony , as against a disturber of the peace of the church and commonwealth . after which mr. williams sate down in a place called providence — and was followed by many of the members of the church of salem , who did zealously adhere to him , and cryed out of the persecution that was against him : some others also resorted to him from other parts . they had not been there long together , but from rigid separation they fell to anabaptistry , renouncing the baptism which they had received in their infancy , and taking up another baptism , and so began a church in that way . but mr. williams stopped not there long ; for after some time he told the people that had followed him , that he was out of the way himself , and had misled them ; for he did not find that there was any upon earth , that could administer baptisme , and therefore their last baptisme was a nullity as well as their first : and therefore they must lay down all , and wait for the coming of new apostles : and so they dissolved themselves , and turned seekers ; keeping that one principle , that every one should have liberty to worship god , according to the light of their own consciences ; but otherwise not owning any churches or ordinances of god , any where upon earth . ] so far the history . to which i adde , that this man was one of the great instruments after all this , of sublimating the english separation to the same height , and gratifying the papists by raising up the sect of seekers , who said , that both scripture , ministry , church and ordinances were lost . and had they not now broken the church sufficiently , and made it small enough , when they had made it none ? god forbid that i should transcribe any of this with a desire to bring reproach on any mens persons , but only to help our dear brethren that are in danger , to prof● by the warning of other mens falls . for to this end was the scripture written historically , with the falls of the saints inserted in it . the same history , pag. 139 , 140. thus describeth mr. thomas dudley a principal founder and pillar of the massachussets , and often governour , dying 77 years old , that [ his zeal to order appeared in contriving good laws , and faithfully executing them on criminal offenders , hereticks and underminers of religion : he had a piercing judgement to discover the wolf , though cloathed with a sheep-skin , — ] these following are the conclusion of a pious copy of verses found in his pocket when he was dead . let men of god in courts and churches watch , o're such as do a toleration hatch , lest that ill egg bring forth a cockatrice , to poyson all with heresie and vice. if men be left , and otherwise combine , my epitaph's , i dy'd no libertine . ( but this is no excuse to them , that tolerate not men to obey the laws of christ. ) to these i may adde that ( though many prelatists utterly mistake , and think that it is the ministers every where that are the chief leaders of the people to separation , yet ) both in new-england and in old , the people are so much proner to it than the ministers , ( except a very few , ) that if it were not for the wisdom , gravity , stability and authority of the ministers restreining them , the matter would be otherwise than it is . as this synod of new-england sheweth you their stability and moderation , so do the choicest of their pastors still stand firm against all extreams , and hold the people in that concord which they have . the excellent service of mr. mitchell in this kind before he died is predicated by all . i will not recite all the complaints i heard from mr. nortons mouth , against the separating humour of many people , and their danger thereupon ; nor the many letters to the same purpose , which many worthy men thence have sent over to their friends , and their particular lamentations of the case of hartford , boston , &c. which i have had the sight of ; which fully testifie that they are no promoters of those waies . the sad case of the bermuda's i before mentioned : sad indeed , when in so disciplin'd a plantation , one minister shall turn away the greater part from church-communion , till they become aliens , — and the rest whom he gathered as the only worthy persons , shall so many turn quakers and such like , till religion between both is , — alas , how low ( as their late worthy minister fore-named testifyeth . ) the dissolution of the separated churches of the english in the low countreys by their own divisions , is a thing too well known to be concealed . from all which i gather , that it is the interest of the congregational churches themselves , as much as of any others , to joyn with us for the principles of christian love , forbearance and unity ; and against the principles of alienation and division : which is all that i am driving at . obj. but the churches of new-england would not joyn with a church that should use the common-prayer in that worship , nor in the sacrament . answ. nor i neither ordinarily if i were with them , and in their case ; who have liberty to worship god in the most edifying and serious , and orderly manner that they can . and yet were i in armenia , abassia , or among the greeks , i would joyn in a much more defective form than our liturgie , rather than in none . and that this is the judgement of many new-england ministers , ( to joyn with the english liturgie rather than have no church-worship ; ) i have reason to conjecture , because in their foresaid defence of the synod , pref. pag. 4 , 5. they profess themselves to receive their principles not from the separatists , but from the good old non-conformists , to whom they adhere , naming cartwright , ames , paraeus , parker , baines , fox , dearing , greenham , &c. and i need not tell those that have read their writings , that the old non-conformists did some of them read the common-prayer , and the most of them judge i● lawful to jo 〈…〉 or else mr. hildersham , mr. rich. rogers , &c. would not write so earnestly to men to come to the beginning , and prefer it before all private duties : and perkins was for kneeling at the sacrament : and mr. baines his successor in his letters writes for communicating kneeling at the sacrament , and answereth the objections . but though i write this to give them the due honour of their moderation and sober judgement , yet not as making them or any men our rule , in faith or worship . obj. therefore the churches of new-england reprove not separation from a common-prayer church , though they would have none separate among themselves , because there is no just cause . ans. 1. the former answer may serve to make it probable , that they would joyn with them as churches , in case they had not better to joyn with on lawful tearms . 2. and their own expressions signifie that they take the english parishes that have godly ministers , for true churches , though faulty . 3. and those that i now write for cannot forget , that they gathered their churches by separation out of our parish-churches , when there was no common-prayer nor ceremonies used , nor any difference in worship found among us , that i know of ; and that in new-england it self , the principles which i deny , do too of procure separation from those churches , that have nothing which moderation and peaceableness will think a sufficient cause of such disjunction . 4. and it is well known that the name of a separatist and brownist was first taken up here in england , with relation to these parish-churches where they had the liturgie and ceremonies as now . therefore they would speak equivocally in disclaiming separatists and brownists , if they meant not such as the word is first and commonly used to signifie . 5. and if that were not the sense , a separatist might be said to be against separation as well as they in new-england . for canne or iohnson would be against separating from their own churches , or from any which they judged as faultless . 6. it was the parish-churches that had the liturgie , and were accused to have 91 antichristian errors ( in them and the church of england which they belonged to ) which mr. h. iacob the father of the congregational party , wrote for communion with against francis iohnson , and in respect to which he called those separatists against whom he wrote ; the same i may say of mr. bradshaw , dr. ames , and other non-conformists , whom the congregational brethren think were favourable to their way . and if the old independents ( as well as the rest of the non-conformists ) accounted them culpable separatists that then wrote for separation from the parish-churches ( for diocesane churches i i● meddle not with , ) then we have small reason to think that those new-england brethren that disclaim the separatists , were of the mind of these separatists themselves , or that they differed from the old independents herein , when they seem rather to be of such healing principles and temper towards the presbyterians , ( as in my opinion ) they have in their synodical conclusions made ●p almost all the breach : and therefore are not to be accounted more for separation than the old congregational divines . and that you may see that the magistrates of new-england are of the mind of their pastors in the synod , and take the youth to be under the ministers charge , or at least that i may hereby express my gladness for this work of their great prudence and christian zeal , and call those my brethren of the ministry to repentance , who did neglect this work of personal instruction , while we had liberty to exercise the pastoral office ; and also that i may yet remember them that are silenced , what abundance of good the law yet alloweth them to do , by this course of going from house to house , and of catechizing the youth , ( seeing we are restrained to no members under 16 years of age , ) i say for these reasons , i shall give you as my conclusion , the order of the governour and council of the massachusets in new-england to all the elders and ministers in their jurisdiction , for catechizing , and private labours with all the families under their charge ; dated at boston , mar. 10. 1668. to the elders and ministers of every town within the jurisdiction of the massachusets in new-england : the governour and council sendeth greeting ; reverend , and beloved in the lord , whereas we find in the examples of holy scripture , that magistrates have not only excited and commanded all the people under their government , to seek the lord god of their fathers , and do the law and commandment , 2 cro. 14. 2 , 3 , 4. ezra , 7. 25 , 26 , 27. but also stirred up and sent forth the levites , accompanied with other principal men , to teach the good knowledge of the lord throughout all the cities of iudah , 2. chron. 17. 6 , 7 , 8 , 9. which endeavours have been crowned with gods blessing . also we find that our brethren of the congregational perswasion in england have made a good profession , in their book , entituled , a declaration of their faith and order , pag. 59. sect. 14. where they say , that although pastors and teachers stand especially related unto their particular churches ; yet they ought not to neglect others living within their parochial bounds , but besides their constant publick preaching to them , they ought to enquire after their profiting by the word ▪ instructing them in , and pressing upon them ( whether young or old ) the great doctrines of the gospel ▪ even personally and particularly , so far as their strength and time will permit . we hope that sundry of you need not a spur in these things , but are consciously careful to do your duty : yet forasmuch as we have cause to fear , that there is too much neglect in many places , notwithstanding the laws long since provided therein ; we therefore think it our duty to emit this declaration unto you , earnestly desiring , and in the bowels of our lord jesus requiring you to be very diligent and careful to catechize and instruct all the people ( especially the youth ) under your charge , in the sound and orthodox principles of christian religion ; and that not only in publick , but privately from house to house , as blessed paul did , acts 20. 20. or at least three , four , or more families meeting together , as strength and time may permit , taking to your assistance such godly and grave persons as to you may seem most expedient . and also that you labour to inform your selves , ( as much as may be meet ) how your hearers do profit by the word of god , and how their conversations do agree therewith ; and whether the youth are taught to read the english tongue : taking all occasions to apply suitable exhortations particularly unto them , for the rebuke of those that do evil , and for the encouragement of them that do well . the effectual and constant prosecution hereof , we hope will have a tendency to promote the salvation of souls , to suppress the growth of sin and prophaneness , to beget more love and unity amongst the people , and more reverence and esteem of the ministry , and will assuredly be to the enlargement of your crown and recompence in eternal glory . given at boston the 10th . of march , 1668. by the governour and council , and by them ordered to be printed , and sent accordingly . edward rawson , secret. finis . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a26912-e4580 i desire the ●●ader to 〈◊〉 the most judi●ious ●o●●rate expositio● o● th● s●cond commandment ( a o● all the est ) i● mr. george lawson's th●opolitica . notes for div a26912-e15380 1 untruth . false worship , what : seven senses of that word . 2. untruth . 3. untruth . of my mentioning former things . whether i were as guilty as any in stirring up the war ? and guilty of all which he calleth the effects ? whether nothing past must be repented o● . the reader must note that i wrote the full narrative of my actions herein , which this presupposeth , but after cast it away , because neither part of the accusers can bear it . 4 untruth . whether i never mention the prophane but with honour . of partial genderness . of my foolish talking . of my pride . whether it be easier to pray extempore , or by memory of words . who is to be judged proud. more mistakes . whom we must come out from . whom we must disown as no church . the corruption of the scripture churches . 5 untruth . of concealing the faults of dividers . of concealing the faults of dividers . * read but hornius his description of the english sects , eccles. hist. and see what strangers think of us . of my revealing secrets . 7 untruth . 8 untruth . 9 untruth . the cause of popery tried . of mr. iohnson's reply to my book . 10 untruth . whether it be intollerable pride to say that the papists understand not christian sense and reason . 11 untruth . of separation . of censuring papists . of pauls not scandalizing the weak . i know that expositors much differ about the weak brother here described , but not in the point that i now urge the ●ext for . more of revealing secrets . 12 untruth . whom i mean by dividing ; and of his curse . 13 untruth . whether i slight prayer ? and whether wisdom is to be got by prayer alone , without any other means . 14 untruth . 15. untruth . whether i speak slightly of christ ? how christ increased in wisdom . whether christ needed prayer for himself . of melancholy misinterpretations of scripture . 16 untruth . whether god hates book-prayers or forms . whether the jews had a liturgie in christs time . see psal 92. and 102 , &c. 1 chr. 16. 4. and 25. 2 chron. 8. 14 , 15. of jeasting at other mens ●●ayers . the temptations of sufferings . many are overcome by suffering , who think they overcome . it 's a reproach to our nation that hornius hist. eccl. saith , [ ita ut seperatismus sive brownismus non alios habeat authores quam cum tyrannide & superstitione episcopos dominantes , pag. 244. so much good suffering doth . whether all that use any thing in gods worship not commanded ( and in particular a form of prayer ) be idolaters ? and what this censure of idolatry signifyeth . whither we are guilty of consenting to all that is faulty in the prayers that we are present at . 17 untruth . of flattering christians . whether any 〈◊〉 be 〈…〉 ignorant , and injudicious . see my book of directions to weak christians to grow in grace . the greatness of the sin of thus flattering christians . how sad is it to read in ho●nius , salmasius and others abroad , such horrid descriptions of the english sects and scandals ? though the actors were not so many as some of them thought . of the loud voice of the preacher , and a sound judgement . 18 untruth . 19 untruth . whether i have left off the lords work . note how ordinarily christ himself and his apostles avoided persecution by removing . of the judgement of the unive●sal church . of the judgement of learned men in difficult speculations . 20 untruth . whether honest people be not apt to stray after one anothers example . whether we should mark and avoid the sins of christians in the time and places where we live ▪ whether the religious sort may not have some common errour to be avoided ? 21 untruth . 22 untruth . 23 untruth . of justification . whether we can speak bad enough of nature . see act. 17. and 14. and rom. 1 , and 2. 24 untruth . 25 untruth . whether there be any free-will . whether he that counts all natural men as bad as he can name , will not hate them , and say bad of them without fear of slander ? 26 untruth . whether no persecution can consist with love ? 27 untruth . 28 untruth . 29 untruth . of the fewness of believers . 30 untruth . whether the same spirit may not be restored to the ancient forms . 31 untruth . maximus imperator r●mpub . g●bernahat : vir omni vitae merito praedicandus , si ei vel diadema non l●git●m●●umultua●te milite impositum repudi●re , vel armis civilibus abstinere licuiss●t ; sed m●gnum imperium nec sine pe●iculo ren● . i , nec sine armis potuit teneri : sulp. sev●rus dialog . 3. cap. 7. beda etiam , ●ist . eccl. l. 1. c. 9. maximus vir str●n●us & p●obus atque augusto dignus , nisi contra sacramenti fidem per tyrannidem emersisset , &c. invitus propemodum ab exercitu c●eatus imperator , &c. had not this man brought the catholick-church into a little room . truth and innocence vindicated in a survey of a discourse concerning ecclesiastical polity, and the authority of the civil magistrate over the consciences of subjects in matters of religion. owen, john, 1616-1683. 1669 approx. 520 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 208 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2005-12 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a53733 wing o817 estc r14775 12279521 ocm 12279521 58629 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a53733) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 58629) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 191:2) truth and innocence vindicated in a survey of a discourse concerning ecclesiastical polity, and the authority of the civil magistrate over the consciences of subjects in matters of religion. owen, john, 1616-1683. [2], 410 p. : port. [s.n.], london : 1669. written by john owen. cf. wing. reproduction of original in union theological seminary library, new york. imperfect: t.p. and port. lacking on filmed copy. the beginning to p. 9 photographed from harvard copy and inserted at the beginning. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng parker, samuel, 1640-1688. -discourse of ecclesiastical politie. church polity -early works to 1800. freedom of religion -great britain. church and state -great britain. 2005-03 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2005-03 aptara keyed and coded from proquest page images 2005-04 judith siefring sampled and proofread 2005-04 judith siefring text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion truth and innocence vindicated : in a survey of a discourse concerning ecclesiastical polity ; and the authority of the civil magistrate over the consciences of subjects in matters of religion . non partum studiis agimur ; sed sumsimus arma , consiliis innimica tuis , discordia vaecors . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 clemens alexand. london , printed . 1669. review of the preface . among the many disadvantages , which those who plead in any sense for liberty of conscience are exposed unto , it is not the least , that in their arguings and pleas they are enforced to admit a supposition , that those whom they plead for , are indeed really mistaken in their apprehensions about the matters concerning which they yet desire to be indulged in their practice . for unless they will give place to such a supposition , or if they will rigidly contend that what they plead in the behalf of , is absolutely the truth , and that obedience thereunto , is the direct will and command of god , there remains no proper field for the debate about indulgence to be mannaged in . for things acknowledged to be such , are not capable of an indulgence properly so called ; because the utmost liberty that is necessary unto them , is their right and due in strict justice and law. men therefore in such discourses , speak not to the nature of the things themselves , but to the apprehensions of them with whom they have to do . but yet against this disadvantage every party which plead for themselves , are relieved by that secret reserve that they have in the perswasion of the truth and goodness of what they profess , and desire to be indulged in the practice of . and this also , as occasion doth offer it self , and in the defence of themselves from the charge of their adversaries , they openly contend and avow . neither was it judged formerly , that there was any way to deprive them of this reserve and relief , but by a direct and particular debate of the matters specially in difference , carried on unto their conviction by evidence of truth , managed from the common principles of it . but after tryal made , this way to convince men of their errors and mistakes , who stand in need of indulgence with respect unto the outward administration of the powers that they are under , is found , as it should seem , tedious , unreasonable , and ineffectual . a new way therefore to this purpose is fixed on , and it is earnestly pleaded , that there needs no other argument or medium to prove men to be mistaken in their apprehensions , and to miscarry in their practice of religious duties , than that at any time , or in any place they stand in need of indulgence . to dissent , at all adventures , is a crime ; and he whom others persecute , tacitly at least , confesseth himself guilty . for it is said , that the law of the magistrate being the sole rule of obedience in religious worship , their non-complyance with any law by him established , evidencing it self in their desire of exemption , is a sufficient conviction , yea a self-acknowledgement not only of their errors and mistakes in what they apprehend of their duty in these things , and of their miscarriages in what they practise , but also that themselves are persons turbulent and seditious in withdrawing obedience from the laws which are justly imposed on them . with what restrictions and limitations , or whether with any or no , these assertions are maintained , we shall afterward enquire . the management of this plea , ( if i greatly mistake him not ) is one of the principal designs of the author of that discourse , a brief survey whereof is here proposed , the principle which he proceeds herein upon , himself it seems knew to be novel and uncouth , and therefore thought it incumbent on him , that both the manner of its handling , and the other principles that he judged meet to associate with it , or annex unto it , should be of the same kind and complexion . this design hath at length produced us this discourse ; which of what use it may prove to the church of god , what tendency it may have to retrive or promote love and peace among christians , i know not . this i know , that it hath filled many persons of all sorts with manifold surprizals , and some with amazement . i have therefore on sundry considerations , prevailed with my self much against my inclinations , for the sake of truth and peace , to spend a few hours in the examination of the principal parts and seeming pillars of the whole fabrick . and this i was in my own mind the more easily indueed unto , because there is no concernment either of the church or state in the things here under debate , unless it be , that they should be vindicated from having any concern in the things and opinions here pleaded and argued . for as to the present church , if the principles and reasonings here maintained and managed , are agreeable unto her sentiments , and allowed by her ; yet there can be no offence given in their examination , because she hath no where yet declared them so to be . and the truth is , if they are once owned and espoused by her , to the ends for which they are asserted , as the christians of old triumphed in the thoughts of him , who first engaged in wayes of violence against them among the nations in the world , so the non-conformists will have no small relief to their minds in their sufferings , when they understand these to be the avowed principles and grounds , on which they are to be persecuted and destroyed . and for the power of ecclesiastical jurisdiction belonging to the kings of this nation , as it hath been claimed and exercised by them in all ages since the establishment of christian religion among us , as it is declared in the laws , statutes , and customs of the kingdom , and prescribed unto an acknowledgement in the oaths of allegiance and supremacy , it and steddiness of expression , which we shall be farther accustomed unto . but in what here he avers of himself , he seems to have the advantage of our lord jesus christ , who upon less provocations than he hath undertaken the consideration of ( for the pharisees with whom he had to deal , were gentlemen be tells us , unto those with whom himself hath to do ) as he saith , fell into an hot fit of zeal , yea , into an height of impatience , which made him act with a seeming fury , and transport of passion , pag. 7. and if that be indeed his temper which he commends in himself , he seems to me to be obliged for it unto his constitution and complexion , as he speaks , and not to his age ; seeing his juvenile expressions and confidence , will not allow us to think that he suffers under any defervescency of spirit by his years . the philosopher tells us , that old men in matters dubious and weighty , are not over-forward to be positive , but ready to cry , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , perhaps , and it may be so , and this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , because they have experience of the uncertainty of things in this world . as indeed those who know what entanglements all humane affairs are attended withal , what appearing causes and probable reasons are to be considered and examined about them , and how all rational determinations are guided and influenced by unforeseen emergencies and occasions , will not be over-forward to pronounce absolutely and peremptorily about the disposal of important affairs . but as the same author informs us , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; young men suppose that they know all things , and are vehement in their asseverations ; from which frame proceed all those dogmatical assertions of what is politick , and impolitick in princes , of what will establish or ruine governments , with the contempt of the conceptions of others about things conducing to publick peace and tranquility , which so frequently occur in our author . this makes him smile at as serious consultations for the furtherance of the welfare and prosperity of this nation , as it may be in any age , or juncture of time have been upon the wheel , preface p. 48. these considerations made it seem to me , that in an ordinary course , he hath time enough before him to improve the notions he hath here blessed the world with a discovery of ; if upon second thoughts he be equally enamoured of them unto what now he seems to be . i could indeed have desired , that he had given us a more clear account of that religion which in his judgement he doth most approve . his commendation of the church of england , sufficiently manifesteth his interest to lye therein ; and that in pursuit of his own principles he doth outwardly observe the institutions and prescriptions of it . but the scheme he hath given us of religion , or religious duties , wherein there is mention neither of sin , nor a redeemer , without which no man can entertain any one true notion of christian religion , would rather bespeak him a philosopher , than a christian. it is not unlikely , but that he will pretend he was treating of religion , as religion in general , without an application of it to this or that in particular ; but to speak of religion as it is among men in this world , or ever was since the fall of adam , without a supposition of sin , and the way of a relief from the event of it mentioned , is to talk of chimaera's , things that neither are , ever were , or will be . on the other hand the profit and advantage of his design falls clearly on the papal interest . for whereas it is framed and contrived for the advantage , security , and unquestionableness of absolute complyers with the present possessors of power , it is evident , that in the states of europe , the advantage lyes incomparably on that hand . but these things are not our concernment . the design which he manageth in his discourse , the subject matter of it , the manner how he treats those with whom he hath to do , and deports himself therein , are by himself exposed to the judgement of all , and are here to be taken into some examination . now because we have in his preface a perfect representation of the things last mentioned throughout the whole , i shall in the first place take a general view and prospect of it . and here i must have regard to the judgement of others . i confess for my own part i do not find my self at all concerned in those invectives , tart and upbraiding expressions , those sharp and twinging satyrs against his adversaries , which he avoweth or rather boasteth himself to have used . if this unparalleld heap of revilings , scoffings , despightful reproaches , sarcasms , scornful contemptuous expressions , false criminations , with frequent intimations of sanguinary affections towards them , do please his fancy , and express his morality to his own satisfaction , i shall never complain that he hath used his liberty ; and do presume that he judgeth it not meet that it should be restrained . it is far from my purpose to return him any answer in the like manner to these things ; to do it — opus est mangone perito qui smithfieldenst polleat eloquio : yet some instances of prodigious excesses in this kind , will in our process be reflected on . and it may be the repetition of them may make an appearance unto some less considerate readers , of a little harshness in some passages of this return . but as nothing of that nature in the least is intended , nothing that might provoke the author in his own spirit , were he capable of any hot impressions , nothing to disadvantage him in his reputation or esteem , so what is spoken being duly weighed , will be found to have nothing sharp or unpleasant in it , but what is unavoidably infused into it from the discourse it self , in its approach unto it to make a representation of it . it is of more concernment to consider with what frame and temper of spirit he manageth his whole cause and debate ; and this is such as that a man who knows nothing of him , but what he learns from this discourse , would suppose that he hath been some great commander , in campis gurgustidoniis vbi bombamachides cluninstaridys archides erat imperator summus ; neptuni nepos , associate unto him , who with his breath blew away and scattered all the legions of his enemies , as the wind doth leaves in autumn . such confidence in himself and his own strength , such contempt of all his adversaries , as persons silly , ignorant , illiterate , such boastings of his atchievments , with such a face and appearance of scorning all that shall rise up against him ; such expressions animi gladiatorii doth he march withall , as no man sure will be willing to stand in his way , unless he think himself to have lived , at least quietly , long enough . only some things there are , which i cannot but admire in his undertaking and management of it ; as first , that such a man of arms and art as he is , should harness himself with so much preparation , and enter the lists with so much pomp and glory , to combat such pittiful poor baffled ignoramus's as he hath chosen to contend withall ; especially con●idering that he knew he had them bound hand and foot , and cast under his strokes at his pleasure . methinks it had more become him , to have sought out some giant in reason and learning , that might have given him at least par animo periculum , as alexander said in his conflict with porus , a danger big enough to exercise his courage , though through mistake it should in the issue have proved but a wind-mill . again ! i know not whence it is , nor by what rules of errantry it may be warranted , that being to conflict such pittiful trifles , he should before he come near to touch them , thunder out such terrible words , and load them with so many reproaches and contemptuous revilings , as if he designed to scare them out of the lists , that there might be no tryal of his strength , nor exercise of his skill . but leaving him to his own choice and liberty in these matters , i am yet perswaded that if he knew how little his adversaries esteem themselves concerned in , or worsted by his revilings , how small advantage he hath brought unto the cause managed by him , with what severity of censures , that i say not indignation , his proceedings herein are reflected on by persons sober and learned , who have any respect to modesty or sobriety , or any reverence for the things of god , as debated among men , he would abate somewhat of that self-delight and satisfaction which he seems to take in his achievement . neither is it in the matter of dissent alone from the established forms of worship , that this author , and some others , endeavour by their revilings and scoffings to expose non-conformists to scorn and violence ; but a semblance at least is made of the like reflections on their whole profession of the gospel , and their worship of god ; yea these are the special subjects of those swelling words of contempt , those farcastical invidious representations of what they oppose , which they seem to place their confidence of success in ; but what do they think to effect by this course of proceedure ? do they suppose that by crying out canting , phrases , silly , non-sense , metaphors , they shall shame the non-conformists out of the profession of the gospel , or make them foregoe the course of their ministry , or alienate one soul from the truth taught and profest amongst them ? they know how their predecessours in the faith thereof , have been formerly entertained in the world : st. paul himself falling among the gentlemen philosophers of those dayes was termed by them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a babler , or one that canted ; his doctrine despised as silly and foolish , and his phrase's pretended to be unintelligible . these things move not the non-conformists , unless it be to a compassion for them whom they fee to press their wits and parts to so wretched an employment . if they have any thing to charge on them with respect to gospel-truths , as that they own , teach , preach , or publish any doctrines , or opinions that are not agreeable thereunto , and doctrine of the antient , and late ( reformed ) churches , let them come forth , if they are men of learning , reading , and ingenuity , and in wayes used and approved from the beginning of christianity for such ends and purposes , endeavour their confutation and conviction ; let them i say with the skill and confidence of men , and according to all rules of method and art , state the matters in difference between themselves and their adversaries , confirm their own judgements with such reasons and arguments as they think pleadable in their behalf , and oppose the opinions they condemn with testimonies and reasons suited to their eversion . the course at present steered and engaged in , to carpe at phrases , expressions , manners of the declaration of mens conceptions , collected from , or falsly fathered upon particular persons , thence intimated to be common to the whole party of non-conformists ( the greatest guilt of some whereof , it may be is only their too near approach to the expressions used in the scripture to the same purpose , and the evidence of their being educed from thence ) is unmanly , unbecoming persons of any philosophick generosity , much more christians and ministers ; nay some of the things or sayings reflected on , and carped at by a late author , are such , as those who have used or asserted them , dare modestly challenge him in their defence to make good his charge in a personal conference , provided it may be scholastical , or logical , not dramatick or romantick . and surely were it not for their confidence in that tame and patient humour , which this author so tramples upon , p. 15. they could not but fear that some or other by these disingenuous proceedings might be provoked to a recrimination , and to give in a charge against the cursed oaths , debaucheries , profaneness , various immoralities , and sottish ignorance , that are openly and notoriously known to have taken up their residence among some of those persons , whom the railleries of this and some other authors are designed to countenance and secure . because we may not concern our selves again in things of this nature , let us take an instance or two of the manner of the dealing of our author with non-conformists , and those as to their preaching and praying , which of all things they are principally maligned about ; for their preaching he thus sets it out , p. 75. whoever among them can invent any new language presently sets up for a man of new discoveries , and he that lights upon the prettyest non-sense , is thought by the ignorant rabble to unfold new gospel mysteries , and thus is the nation shattered into infinite factions with senseless and phantastick phrases ; and the most fatal miscarriage of them all lyes in abusing scripture expressions , not only without , but in contradiction to their sense ; so that had we but an act of parliament to abridge preachers the use of fulsome and luscious metaphors , it might perhaps be an effectual cure of all our present distempers . let not the reader smile at the oddness of the proposal ; for were men obliged to speak sense as well as truth , all the swelling mysteries of phanaticism would then sink into flat and empty non-sense ; and they would be ashamed of such jejune and ridioulous stuff as their admired and most profound nations would appear to be . certainly there are few who read these expressions that can retain themselves from smiling at the pittiful phantastick souls that are here characterized ; or from loathing their way of preaching here represented . but yet if any should by a surprizal indulge themselves herein , and one should seriously enquire what it is that stirred those humours in them , it may be they could scarce return a rational account of their commotions : for when they have done their utmost to countenance themselves in their scorn and derision , they have nothing but the bare assertions of this author for the proof of what is here charged on those whom they deride ; and how if these things are most of them , if not all of them absolutely false ? how if he be not able to prove any of them by any considerable avowed instance ? how if all the things intended whether they be so or no as here represented , depend meerly on the judgement and fancy of this author , and it should prove in the issue that they are no such rules , measures , or standards of mens rational expressions of their conceptions , but that they may be justly appealed from ? and how if sundry things so odiously here expressed , be proved to have been sober truths declared in words of wisdom and sobriety ? what if the things condemned as fulsome metaphors prove to be scriptural expressions of gospel mysteries ? what if the principal doctrines of the gospel about the grace of god , the mediation of christ , of faith , justification , gospel-obedience , communion with god , and union with christ , are esteemed and stigmatized by some as swelling mysteries of fanaticism ; and the whole work of our redemption by the blood of christ as expressed in the scripture , be deemed metaphorical ? in brief , what if all this discourse concerning the preachings of non-conformists be , as unto the sense of the words here used , false , and the crimes in them injuriously charged upon them ? what if the metaphors they are charged with , are no other but their expression of gospel mysteries not in the words which mans wisdom teacheth , but which the holy-ghost teacheth , comparing spiritual things with spiritual ? as these things may and will be made evident when particulars shall be instanced in . when i say these things are discovered and laid open , there will be a composure possibly of those affections and disdainful thoughts , which these swelling words may have moved in weak and unexperienced minds . it may be also it will appear that upon a due consideration , there will be little subject matter remaining to be enacted in that law or act of parliament which he moves for ; unless it be from that uncouth motion that men may be obliged to speak sense as well as truth ; seeing hitherto it hath been supposed that every proposition that is either true or false , hath a proper and determinate sense ; and if sense it have not , it can be neither . i shall only crave leave to say , that as to the doctrine which they preach , and the manner of their preaching , or the way of expressing those doctrines or truths which they believe and teach , the non-conformists appeal from the rash , false , and invidious charge of this author , to the judgement of all learned , judicious and pious men in the world ; and are ready to defend them against himself , and whosoever he shall take to be his patrons or his associates , before any equal , competent , and impartial tribunal under heaven . it is far from me to undertake the absolute defence of any party of men , or of any man because he is of any party whatever ; much less shall i do so of all the individual persons of any party , and least of all , as to all their expressions , private opinions , and peculiar ways of declaring them , which too much abound among persons of all sorts . i know there is no party , but have weak men belonging to it ; nor any men amongst them but have their weaknesses , failings and mistakes . and if there are none such in the churcb of england , i mean those that universally comply with all the observances at present used therein , i am sure enough that there are so amongst all other parties that dissent from it . but such as these are not principally intended in these aspersio●s : nor would their adversaries much rejoyce to have them known to be , and esteemed of all what they are . but it is others whom they aim to expose unto contempt ; and in the behalf of them , not the mistakes , misapprehensions , or undue expressions of any private persons , these things are pleaded . but let us see , if their prayers meet with any better entertainment ; an account of his thoughts about them he gives us , p. 19. it is the most solemn strain of their devotion to vilifie themselves with large confessions of the hainousest and most aggravated sins : they will freely acknowledge their offences against all the commands , and that with the foulest and most enhancing circumstances ; they can rake together , and confess their injustice , uncleanness and extortion , and all the publican and harlot sins in the world ; in brief , in all their confessions , they stick not to charge themselves with such large catalogues of sin , and to amass together such as heap of impieties , as would make up the compleatest character of lewdness and villany ; and if their consciences do really arraign them of all those crimes whereof they so familiarly indite themselves , there are no such guilty and unpardonable wretches as they : so that their confessions are either true or false ; if false , then they fool and trifle with the almighty ; if true , then i could easily tell them the fittest place to say their prayers in . i confess this passage at its first perusal surprized me with some amazement . it was unexpected to me , that he who designed all along to charge his adversaries with pharisaism , and to render them like unto them , should instance in their confession of sin in their prayers , when it is even a characteristical note of the pharisees , that in their prayers they made no confession of sin at all . but it was far more strange to me , that any man durst undertake the reproaching of poor sinners with the deepest acknowledgement of their sins before the holy god , that they are capable to conceive or utter . is this , thought i , the spirit of the men with whom the non-conformists do contend , and upon whose instance alone they suffer ? are these their apprehensions concerning god , sin , themselves and others ? is this the spirit wherewith the children of the church are acted ? are these things suited to the principles , doctrines , practices of the church of england ? such reproaches and reflections indeed , might have been justly expected from those poor deluded souls , who dream themselves perfect and free from sin ; but to meet with such a treaty from them who say or sing , o god the father of heaven , have mercy upon us miserable sinners , at least three times a week , was some surprizal . however i am sure , the non-conformists need return no other answer to them who reproach them for vilifying themselves in their confessions to god , but that of david to michal , it is before the lord , and we will yet be more vile than thus , and will be base in our own sight . our author makes no small stir with the pretended censures of some whom he opposes ; namely , that they should esteem themselves and their party to be the elect of god , all others to be reprobates , themselves and theirs to be godly , and all others ungodly ; wherein i am satisfied , that he unduely chargeth those whom he intends to reflect upon : however i am none of them ; i do not judge any party to be all the elect of god , or all the elect of god to be confined unto any party ; i judge no man living to be a reprobate , though i doubt not but that there are living men in that condition ; i confine not holiness or godliness to any party ; not to the church of england , nor to any of those who dissent from it ; but am perswaded that in all societies of christians that are under heaven that hold the head , there are some really fearing god , working righteousness , and accepted with him . but yet neither my own judgement , nor the reflections of this author , can restrain me from professing that i fear that he who can thus trample upon men , scoff at and deride them for the deepest confessions of their sins before god , which they are capable of making , is scarce either well acquainted with the holiness of god , the evil of sin , or the deceitfulness of his own heart , or did not in his so doing , take them into sufficient consideration . the church of england it self requires its children to acknowledge their manifold sins and wickednesses , which from time to time they have grievously committed by thought , word and deed , against the divine majesty ; and what in general , others can confess more , i know not . if men that are through the light of gods spirit and grace , brought to an acquaintance with the deceitful workings of sin in their own hearts , and the hearts of others , considering aright the terror of the lord , and the manifold aggravations wherewith all their sins are attended , do more particularly express these things before , and to the lord , when indeed nor they , nor any other can declare the thousandth part of the vileness and unworthiness of sin and sinners on the account thereof , shall they be now despised for it , and judged to be men meet to be hanged ? if this author had but seriously perused the confessions of austin , and considered how he traces his sin from his nature in the womb , through the cradle , into the whole course of his life , with his marvellous and truly ingenious acknowledgements and aggravations of it , perhaps the reverence of so great a name might have caused him to suspend this rash , and i fear , impious discourse . for the particular instances wherewith he would countenance his sentiments and censures in this matter , there is no difficulty in their removal . our lord jesus christ hath taught us , to call the most secret workings of sin in the heart , though resisted , though controlled , and never suffered to bring forth , by the names of those sins which they lye in a tendency unto ; and men in their confessions respect more the pravity of their natures , and the inward working and actings of sin , than the outward perpetrations of it , wherein perhaps they may have little concernment in the world ; as job who pleaded his uprightness , integrity , and righteousness against the charge of all his friends , yet when he came to deal with god , he could take that prospect of his nature and heart , as to vilifie himself before him , yea to abhor himself in dust and ashes . again , ministers who are the mouths of the congregation to god , may , and ought to acknowledge , not only the sins whereof themselves are personally guilty , but those also which they judge may be upon any of the congregation . this assuming of the persons of them to whom they speak , or in whose name they speak , is usual even to the sacred writers themselves . so speaks the apostle peter , 1 epist. 4. 3. for the time past of our lives may suffice us , to have wrought the will of the gentiles , when we walked in lasciviousness , lusts , excess of wine , revellings , banquetings and abominable idolatries . he puts himself amongst them , although the time past of his life in particular was remote enough from being spent in the manner there described : and so it may be with ministers when they confess the sins of the whole congregation . and the dilemma of this author about the truth or falshood of these confessions , will fall as heavy on st. paul as on any non-conformist in the world . for besides the acknowledgement that he makes of the former sins of his life when he was injurious , a blasphemer , and persecutor , ( which sins i pray god deliver others from ) and the secret working of in-dwelling sin , which he cryes out in his present condition to be freed from ; he also when an apostle professeth himself the chiefest of sinners ; now this was either true , or it was not ; if it was not true , god was mocked ; if it were , our author could have directed him to the fittest place to have made his acknowledgements in . what thinks he of the confessions of ezra , of daniel and others in the name of the whole people of god ? of david concerning himself , whose self-abasements before the lord , acknowledgements of the guilt of sin in all its aggravations and effects , far exceed any thing that non-conformists are able to express . as to his instances of the confession of injustice , uncleanness , and extortion , it may be as to the first and last , he would be put to it to make it good by express particulars ; and i wish it be not found that some have need to confess them , who cry at present , they are not as these publicans . vncleanness seems to bear the worst sound , and to lead the mind to the worst apprehensions of all the rest ; but it is god with whom men have to do in their confessions ; and before him , what is man that he should be clean , and he that is born of a woman , that he should be righteous ? behold he putteth no trust in his saints , and the heavens are not clean in his sight , and how much more abominable and filthy is man , who drinketh in iniquity like water , job . 15. and the whole church of god in their confession cry out , we are all as an unclean thing , and all our righteousnesses are as filthy raggs , isa. 54. there is a pollution of flesh and spirit , which we are still to be cleansing our selves from whilst we are in this world . but to what purpose is it to contend about these things ? i look upon this discourse of our author as a signal instance of the power of prejudice and passions over the minds of men . for setting aside the consideration of a present influence from them , i cannot believe that any one that professeth the religion taught by jesus christ , and contained in the scripture , can be so ignorant of the terror of the lord , so unaccustomed to thoughts of his infinite purity , severity and holiness , such a stranger to the accuracy , spirituality , and universality of the law , so unacquainted with the sin of nature , and the hidden deceitful workings of it in the hearts , minds and affections of men , so senseless of the great guilt of the least sin , and the manifold inexpressible aggravations wherewith it is attended , so unexercised to that self-abasement and abhorrency which becomes poor sinners in their approaches to the holy god , when they consider what they are in themselves , so disrespective of the price of redemption that was paid for our sins , and the mysterious way of cleansing our souls from them by the blood of the son of god , as to revile , despise and scoff at men for the deepest humblings of their souls before god , in the most searching and expressive acknowledgements of their sins , that they do or can make at any time . the like account may be given of all the charges that this author man●ageth against the men of his indignation ; but i shall return at present to the preface under consideration . in the entrance of his discourse , being as it seems conscious to himself of a strange and wild intemperance of speech in reviling his adversaries , which he had either used , or intended so to do , he pleads sundry things in his excuse or for his justification . hereof the first is , his zeal for the reformation of the church of england , and the settlement thereof with its forms and institutions ; these he saith are countenanced by the best and purest times of christianity , and established by the fundamental laws of this land ; ( which yet as to the things in contest between him and non conformists i greatly doubt of , as not believing any fundamental law of this land to be of so late a date , ) to see this opposed by a wild and fanatick rabble , rifled by folly and ignorance , on slender and frivolous pretences so often and so shamefully baffled , yet again revived by the pride and ignorance of a few peevish , ignorant and malepert preachers , brainsick people , ( all which gentle and peaceable expressions are crowded together in the compass of a few lines ) is that which hath chased him into this heat and briskness ; if this be not to deal with gain-sayers in a spirit of meekness , if herein there be not an observation of the rules of speaking evil of no man , despising no man , of not saying racha to our brother , or calling of him fool ; if here be not a discovery how remote he is from self-conceit , elation of mind , and the like immoralities , we must make enquiry after such things elsewhere ; for in this whole ensuing treatise we shall scarce meet with any thing more tending to our satisfaction . for the plea it self made use of , those whom he so tramples on , do highly honor the reformation of the church of england , and bless god for it continually , as that which hath had a signal tendency unto his glory , and usefulness to the souls of men . that as to the outward rites of worship and discipline contested about , it was in all things conformed unto the great rule of them , our author doth not pretend ; nor can he procure it in those things , whatever he sayes , any countenance from the best and purest times of christianity : that it was every way perfect in its first edition , i suppose , will not be affirmed ; nor considering the posture of affairs at the time of its framing both in other nations and in our own , was it like it should so be . we may rather admire that so much was then done according to the will of god , than that there was no more . whatever is wanting in it , the fault is not to be cast on the first reformers , who went as far as well in those dayes could be expected from them . whether others who have succeeded in their place and room , have since discharged their duty in perfecting what was so happily begun , is sub judice , and there will abide , after this author and i have done writing . that as to the things mentioned , it never had an absolute quiet possession or admittance in this nation , that a constant and no inconsiderable suffrage hath from first to last been given in against it , cannot be denyed ; and for any savage worrying or rifling of it at present , no man is so barbarous as to give the least countenance to any such thing . that which is intended in these exclamations , is only a desire that those who cannot comply with it as now established in the matters of discipline and worship before mentioned , may not meerly for that cause be worried and destroyed , as many have already been . again , the chief glory of the english reformation consisted in the purity of its doctrine , then first restored to the nation . this , as it is expressed in the articles of religion , and in the publickly authorized writings of the bishops and chief divines of the church of england , is , as was said , the glory of the english reformation . and it is somewhat strange to me , that whilst one writes against original sin , another preaches up justification by works , and scoffs at the imputation of the righteousness of christ to them that believe ; yea whilst some can openly dispute against the doctrine of the trinity , the deity of christ , and the holy ghost ; whilst instances may be collected of some mens impeaching all the articles almost throughout , there should be no reflection in the least on these things ; only those who dissent from some outward methods of worship must be made the object of all this wrath and indignation . quis tulerit gracehos de seditione querentes ? some mens guilt in this nature , might rather mind them of pulling out the be am out of their own eyes , than to act with such fury to pull out the eyes of others , for the motes which they think they espy in them . but hence is occasion given to pour out such a storm of fury , conveyed by words of as great reproach and scorn , as the invention of any man i think could suggest , as is not lightly to be met withal : might our author be prevailed with to mind the old rule , mitte malè loqui , dic rem ipsam , these things might certainly be debated with less scandal , less mutual offences and provocations . anothor account of the reasons of his intemperance in these reproaches , supplying him with an opportunity to encrease them in number and weight , he gives us pag. 6. & 7. of his preface , which because it may well be esteemed a summary representation of his way and manner of arguing in his whole discourse , i shall transcribe . i know , sayes he , but one single instance in which zeal or a high indignation is just and warrantable : and that is when it vents it self against the arrogance of haughty peevish and sullen religionists , that under higher pretences of godliness supplant all principles of civility and good nature ; that strip religion of its outside to make it a covering for spight and malice ; that adorn their peevishness with a mark of piety , and shrowd their ill nature under the demure pretences of godly zeal , and stroke and applaud themselves as the only darlings and favourites of heaven ; and with a scornfull pride disdained all the residue of mankind as a rout of worthless and unregenerate reprobates . thus the only hot fit of zeal we find our saviour in , was kindled by an indignation against the pride and insolence of the jews , when he whipped the buyers and sellers out of the outward court of the temple ; for though they bore a blind and superstitious reverence towards that part of it that was peculiar to their own worship , yet as for the outward court , the place where the gentiles and proselytes worshipped , that was so unelean and unhallowed , that they thought it could not be profaned by being turned into an exchange of vsury : now this insolent contempt of the gentiles , and impudent conceit of their own holiness , provoked the mild spirit of our blessed saviour to such an height of impatience and indignation , as made him with a seeming fury and transport of passion whip the tradesmen thence , and overthrew their tables . what truth , candor , or conscience hath been attended unto in the insolent reproaches here heaped up against his adversaries , is left to the judgement of god and all impartial men ; yea let judgement be made , and sentence be past according to the wayes , course of life , conversation , usefulness amongst men , readiness to serve the common concerns of mankind , in exercising lovingkindness in the earth , of those who are thus injuriously traduced , compared with any in the approbation and commendation of whom they are covered with these reproaches , and there lives not that person who may not be admitted to pronounce concerning the equity and righteousness or iniquity of these intemperances . however it is nothing with them with whom he hath to do to be judged by mans day ; they stand at the judgement seat of christ , and have not so learned him as to relieve themselves by false or fierce recriminations . the measure of the covering provided for all these excesses of unbridled passion , is that alone which is now to be taken . the case expressed it seems is the only single instance in which zeal is just and warrantable . how our author came to be assured thereof i know not ; sure i am that it doth neither comprize in it , nor hath any aspect on , the ground , occasion , or nature of the zeal of phinehas , or of nehemiah , or of david , or of joshuah , and least of all of our saviour as we shall see . he must needs be thought to be over-intent upon his present occasion , when he forgot not one , or two , but indeed all instances of just and warrantable zeal that are given us in the only sacred repository of them . for what concerns the example of our blessed saviour particularly insisted on , i wish he had ossended one way only in the report he makes of it . for let any sober man judge in the first place , whether those expressions he useth of the hot fit of zeal , that he was in , of the height of impatience that he was provoked unto , the seeming fury and transport of passion that he acted withall , do become that reverence and adoration of the son of god which ought to possess the hearts , and guide the tongues and writings of men that profess his name . but whatever other mens apprehensions may be , as it is not improbable but that some will exercise severity in their reflections on these expressions ; for my part ; i shall entertain no other thoughts but that our author being engaged in the composition of an invective declamation , and aiming at a gradeur of words , yea to fill it up with tragical expressions , could not restrain his pen from some extravagant excess , when the lord christ himself came in his way to be spoken of . however it will be said the instance is pertinently alledged , and the occasion of the exercise of the zeal of our blessed saviour is duly represented . it may be some will think so , but the truth is , there are scarce more lines than mistakes in the whole discourse to this purpose . what court it was of the temple wherein the action remembred was performed , is not here particularly determined ; only 't is said to be the outward court wherein the gentiles and proselytes worshipped in opposition to that which was peculiar to the worship of the jews . now of old from the first erection of the temple there were two courts belonging unto it and no more ; the inward court , wherein were the brazen altar with all those utensils of worship which the priests made use of in their sacred offices ; and the outward court whither the people assembled , as for other devotions , so to behold the priests exercising their function , and to be in a readiness to bring in their own especial sacrifices , upon which account they were admitted to the altar it self . into this outward court which was a dedicate part of the temple , all gentiles who were proselytes of righteousness , that is who being circumeised had taken upon them the observation of the law of moses , and thereby joyned themselves to the people of god , were admitted , as all the jewish writers agrree . and these were all the courts that were at first sanctified , and were in use when the words were spoken by the prophet , which are applyed to the action of our saviour ; namely , my house shall be called a house of prayer , but ye have made it a den of thieves ; afterwards in the dayes of the herodians another court was added by the immuring of the remainder of the hill , whereunto a promiscuous entrance was granted unto all people . it was therefore the antient outward court whereinto the jews thought that paul had brought trophimus the ephesian , whom they knew to be uncircumcised . i confess some expositors think that it was this latter area from whence the lord christ east out the buyers and sellers ; but their conjecture seems to be altogether groundless ; for neither was that court ever absolutely called the temple , nor was it esteemed sacred , but common or prophane ; nor was it in being when the prophet used the words mentioned concerning the temple . it was therefore the other antient outward court common to the jews and proselytes of the gentiles that is intended ; for as there the salt and wood were stored , that were daily used in their sacrifices , so the covetous priests knowing that many who came up to offer , were wont to buy the beasts they sacrificed at hierusalem to prevent the charge and labour of bringing them from farr ; to further as they pretended their accommodation , they appropriated a market to themselves in this court , and added a trade in money , relating it may be thereunto , and other things for their advantage . hence the lord christ twice drove them ; once at the beginning , and once at the end of his ministry in the flesh ; not with a seeming transport of fury , but with that evidence of the presence of god with him , and majesty of god upon him , that it is usually reckoned amongst one of the miracles that he wrought , considering the state of all things at that time amongst the jews . and the reason why he did this , and the occasion of the exercise of his zeal , is so express in the scripture , as i cannot but admire at the invention of our author , who could find out another reason and occasion of it . for it is said directly , that he did it because of their wicked profanation of the house of god , contrary to his express institution and command ; of a regard to the jews contempt of the gentiles there is not one word , not the least intimation ; nor was there in this matter the least occasion of any such thing . these things are not pleaded in the least , to give countenance to any , in their proud supercillious censures and contempt of others , wherein if any person living have out-done our author , or shall endeavour so to do , he will not fail i think to carry away the prize in this unworthy contest . nor is it to apologize for them whom he charges with extravagances and excesses in this kind . i have no more to say in their behalf , but that as far as i know , they are falsly accused and calumniated , though i will not be accountable for the expessions of every weak and impertinent person . where men indeed sin openly in all manner of transgressions against the law and gospel , where a spirit of enmity to holiness and obedience unto god discovers and acts it self constantly on all occasions ; in a word , where men wear sin 's livery , some are not afraid to think them sin 's servants . but as to that elation of mind in self-conceit wherewith they are charged , their contempt of other men upon the account of party which he imputes unto them , i must expect other proofs than the bare assertion of this author before , i shall joyn with him in the management of his accusation . and no other answer shall i return to the ensuing leaves , fraught with bitter reproaches , invectives , sarcasms , far enough distant from truth and all sobriety . nor shall i though in their just and necessary vindication , make mention of any of those things which might represent them persons of another complexion . if this author will give those whom he probably most aims to load with these aspersions , leave to confess themselves poor and miserable sinners in the sight of god , willing to bear his indignation against whom they have finned , and to undergo quietly the severest rebukes and revilings of men , in that they know not but that they have a providential permissive commission from god so to deal with them , and add thereunto , that they yet hope to be saved by jesus christ , and in that hope endeavour to give up themselves in obedience to all his commands , it contains that description of them which they shall alwayes , and in all conditions endeavour to answer . but i have only given these remarks upon the preceding discourse , to discover upon what feeble grounds our author builds for his own justification in his present engagement . pag. 13. of his preface , he declares his original design in writing this discourse , which was to represent to the world the lamentable folly and silliness of those mens religion with whom he had to do , which he farther expresses and pursues with such a lurry of virulent reproaches as i think is not to be parallel'd in any leaves , but some others of the same hand ; and in the close thereof he supposeth he hath evinced that in comparison of them , the most insolent of the pharisees were gentlemen , and the most savage of the americans philosophers . i must confess my self an utter stranger unto that generous disposition and philosophick nobleness of mind , which vent themselves in such revengefull scornfull wrath , expressed in such rude and barbarous railings against any sort of men whatever , as that here manifested in , and those here used by this author . if this be a just delineation and character of the spirit of a gentleman , a due portraicture of the mind and affections of a philosopher , i know not who will be ambitious to be esteemed either the one or the other . but what measures men now make of gentility i know not ; truly noble generosity of spirit was heretofore esteemed to consist in nothing more , than remoteness from such pedantick severities against , and contemptuous reproaches of persons under all manner of disadvantages , yea impossibilities to manage their own just vindication , as are here exercised and expressed in this discourse . and the principal pretended attainment of the old philosophy , was a sedateness of mind , and a freedome from turbulent passions and affections under the greatest provocations ; which if they are here manifested by our author , they will give the greater countenance unto the character which he gives of others ; the judgement and determination whereof is left unto all impatial readers . but in this main design he professeth himself prevented by the late learned and ingenious discourse , the friendly debate ; which to manifest , it may be , that his rhetorical faculty is not confined to invectives , he spendeth some pages in the splendid encomiums of . there is no doubt , i suppose but that the author of that discourse , will on the next occasion require his panegyrick , and return him his commendations for his own achievements with advantage ; they are like enough to agree like those of the poet , discedo alcaeus puncto illius , ille meo quis ? quis nist callimachus ? for the present his account of the excellencies and successes of that discourse minds me of the dialogue between pyrgopolynices and artotrogus : pyrg . ecquid meministi ? art. memini ; centum in ciliciâ , et quinquaginta centum sycolatronidae , triginta sardi , sexaginta macedones , sunt homines tu quos occidisti uno die , pyrg . quanta isthaec hominum summa est ? art. septem millia . pyrg . tantum esse oportet ; rectè rationem tenes . art. at nullos habeo scriptos , sic memini tamen . although the particular instances he gives of the man's successes , are prodigiously ridiculous , yet the casting up of the summ total to the compleating of his victory , sinks them all out of consideration : and such is the account we have here of the friendly debate . this and that it hath effected , which though unduly asserted as to the particular instances , yet altogether comes short of that absolute victory and triumph which are ascribed unto it . but i suppose that upon due consideration , mens glorying in those discourses , will be but as the crackling of thorns in the fire , noise and smoak without any real and solid use or satisfaction . the great design of the author , asis apparent unto all , was to render the sentiments and expressions of his adversaries ridiculous , and thereby to expose their persons to contempt and scorn , egregiam vero laudem & spolia ampla ! and to this end his way of writing by dialogues is exceedingly suited and accommodated : for although ingenious and learned men , such as plato and cicero , have handled matters of the greatest importance in that way of writing , candidly-proposing the opinions and arguments of adverse parties in the persons of the dialogists , and sometimes used that method to make their design of instruction more easie and perspicuous , yet it cannot be denyed that advantages may be taken from this way of writing to represent both persons , opinions , and practices , invidiously and contemptuously , above any other way ; and therefore it hath been principally used by men who have had that design . and i know nothing in the skilfull contrivance of dialogues , which is boasted of here with respect unto the friendly debate , as also by the author of it in his preface to one of his worthy volumes , that should free the way of writing it self , from being supposed to be peculiarly accommodated to the ends mentioned . nor will these authors charge them with want of skill and art in composing of their dialogues , who have designed nothing in them but to render things uncouth , and persons ridiculous , with whom themselves were in worth and honesty no way to be compared . an instance hereof we have in the case of socrates . sundry in the city being weary of him for his uprightness , integrity , and continual pressing of them to courses of the like nature ; some also being in an especial manner incensed at him , and provoked by him ; amongst them they contrived his ruine . that they might effect this design , they procured aristophanes to write a dialogue , his comoedy which he entituled 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the clouds ; wherein socrates is introduced and personated , talking at as contemptible and ridiculous a rate , as any one can represent the non-conformists to do ; and yet withal to commend himself as the only man considerable amongst them . without some such preparation of the peoples minds , his enemies thought it impossible to obtain his persecution and destruction ; and they failed not in their projection . aristophanes being poor , witty , and as is supposed hired to this work , layes out the utmost of his endeavours so to frame and order his dialogues , with such elegancy of words , and composure of his verses , with such a semblance of relating the words and expressing the manner of socrates , as might leave an impression on the minds of the people . and the success of it was no way inferiour to that of the friendly debate ; for though at first the people were somewhat surprized with seeing such a person so traduced , yet they were after a while so pleased and tickled with the ridiculous representation of him and his philosophy , wherein there was much of appearance and nothing of truth , that they could make no end of applauding the author of the dialogues . and though this were the known design of that poet , yet that his dialogues were absurd and inartificial , i suppose will not be affirmed ; seeing few were ever more skilfully contrived . having got this advantage of exposing him to publick contempt , his provoked malicious adversaries began openly to manage their accusation against him . the principal crime laid to his charge was non-conformity , or that he did not comply with the religion which the supream magistrate had enacted ; or as they then phrased it , he esteemed not them to be gods whom the city so esteemed . by these means , and through these advantages , they ceased not until they had destroyed the best and wisest person , that ever that city bred in its heathen condition , and whereof they quickly repented themselves . the reader may see the whole story exactly related in aelian . lib. 2. var. histor. cap. 13. much of it also may be collected from the apologies of xenophon and plato in behalf of socrates , as also plutarch's discourse concerning his genius . to this purpose have dialogues very artificially written been used and are absolutely the most accommodate of all sorts of writing unto such a design . hence lucian who aimed particularly to render the things which he disliked ridiculous and contemptible , used no other kind of writing ; and i think his dialogues will be allowed to be artificial , though sundry of them have no other design but to cast contempt on persons and opinions better than himself and his own . and his way of dealing with adversaries in points of faith , opinion and judgement , hath hitherto been esteemed fitter for the stage , than a serious disquisition after truth , or confutation of error : did those who admire their own achievements in this way of process , but consider how easie a thing it is for any one , deposing that respect to truth , modesty , sobriety , and christianity which ought to accompany us in all that we do , to expose the persons and opinions of men by false , partial , undue representations to scorn and contempt , they would perhaps cease to glory in their fancied success . it is a facile thing to take the wisest man living , and after he is lime-twigg'd with ink and paper , and gagged with a quill , so that he can neither move nor speak , to clap a fools coat on his back , and turn him out to be laughed at in the streets . the stoicks were not the most contemptible sort of philosophers of old , nor will not be thought so by those , who profess their religion to consist in morality only . and yet the roman orator in his pleading for muraena , finding it his present interest to cast some disreputation upon cato his adversary in that cause , who was addicted to that sect , so represented their dogmes , that he put the whole assembly into a fit of laughter ; whereunto cato only replyed , that he made others laugh , but was himself ridiculous ; and it may be some will find it to fall out not much otherwise with themselves by that time the whole account of their undertaking is well cast up . besides , do these men not know , that if others would employ themselves in a work of the like kind by way of retortion and recrimination , that they would find real matter amongst some whom they would have esteemed sacred , for an ordinary ingenuity to exercise it self upon unto their disadvantage ? but what would be the issue of such proceedings ? who would be gainers by it ? every thing that is professed among them that own religion , all wayes and means of their profession , being by their mutual reflections of this kind , render'd riciculous , what remains but that men fly to the sanctuary of atheism to preserve themselves from being scoffed at and despised as fools . on this account alone i would advise the author of our late debates to surcease proceeding in the same kind , lest a provocation unto a retaliation should befall any of those who are so fouly aspersed . but , as i said , what will be the end of these things , namely of mutual virulent reflections upon one another ? shall this sword devour for ever ? and will it not be bitterness in the latter end ? for , as he said of old of persons contending with revilings ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 great store there are of such words and expressions on every hand , and every provoked person , if he will not bind his passion to a rule of sobriety and temperance , may at his pleasure take out and use what he supposeth for his turn . and let not men please themselves with imagining that it is not as easie , though perhaps not so safe , for others to use towards themselves , haughty and contemptuous expressions , as it is for them to use them towards others . but shall this wrath never be allayed ? is this the way to restore peace , quietness and satisfaction to the minds of men ? is it meet to use her language in this nation concerning the present differences about religion , nullus amor populis , nec foedera sunto ; imprecor arma armis , pugnent ipsique nepotes ? is agreement in all other things , all love and forbearance , unless there be a centering in the same opinions absolutely , become criminal , yea detestable ? will this way of proceeding compose and satisfie the minds of men ? if there be no other way for a coalescence in love and unity in the bond of peace ; but either that the non-conformists do depose and change in a moment , as it were , their thoughts , apprehensions and judgements about the things in difference amongst us , which they cannot , which is not in their power to do ; or that in the presence , and with a peculiar respect unto the eye and regard of god , they will act contrary unto them , which they ought not , which they dare not , no not upon the present instruction , the state of these things is somewhat deplorable . that alone which in the discourses mentioned seemeth to me of any consideration , if it have any thing of truth to give it countenance , is that the non-conformists under pretence of preaching mysteries and grace , do neglect the pressing of moral duties , which are of near and indispensable concernment unto men in all their relations and actions ; and without which , religion is but a pretence and covering for vice and sin . a crime this is unquestionably of the highest nature if true , and such as might justly render the whole profession of those who are guilty of it suspected . and this is again renewed by our author , who to charge home upon the non-conformists reports the saying of fl●ius ilyricus a lutheran who dyed an hundred ye●rs ago ; namely that bona opera sunt pernitiosa ad salutem , though i do not remember that any such thing was maintained by illyricus , though it was so by amsdorsius against georgius major . but is it not strange , how any man can assume to himself , and swallow so much confidence as is needful to the mannagement of this charge ? the books and treatises published by men of the perswasion traduced , their daily preaching witnessed unto by multitudes of all sorts of people , the open avowing of their duty in this matter , their principles concerning sin , duty , holiness , vertue , righteousness and honesty , do all of them proclaim the blackness of this calumny , and sink it with those who have taken , or are able to take any sober cognizance of these things , utterly beneath all consideration ; moral duties they do esteem , commend , count as necessary in religion as any men that live under heaven ; it is true they say that on a supposition of that performance whereof they are capable without the assistance of the grace and spirit of god , though they may be good in their own nature , and useful to mankind , yet they are not available unto the salvation of the souls of men ; and herein they can prove , that they have the concurrent suffrage of all known churches in the world , both those of old , and these at present : they say moreover , that for men to rest upon their performances of these moral duties for their justification before god , is but to set up their own righteousness through an ignorance of the righteousness of god ; for we are justified freely by his grace ; neither yet are they sensible of any opposition to this assertion . for their own discharge of the work of the ministry , they endeavour to take their rule , pattern and instruction from the precepts , directions , and examples of them who were first commissionated unto that work , even the apostles of our lord jesus christ , recorded in the scripture , that they might be used and improved unto that end . by them are they taught , to endeavour the declaring unto men all the counsel of god concerning his grace , their obedience and salvation ; and having the word of reconciliation committed unto them , they do pray their hearers in christs stead to be reconciled unto god ; to this end do they declare the unsearchable riches of christ , and comparatively determine to know nothing in this world but christ and him crufied , whereby their preaching becometh principally the word or doctrine of the cross , which by experience they find to be a stumbling block unto some , and foolishness unto others ; by all means endeavouring to make known what is the riches of the glory of the mysterie of god in christ , reconciling the world unto himself ; praying withal for their hearers , that the god of our lord jesus christ , the father of glory , would give unto them the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him , that the eyes of their understanding being enlightned , they may learn to know what is the hope of his calling , and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints ; and in these things are they not ashamed of the gospel of christ , which is the power of god unto salvation . by this dispensation of the gospel , do they endeavour to ingenerate in the hearts and souls of men , repentance towards god , and faith in our lord jesus christ. to prepare them also hereunto , they cease not by the preaching of the law , to make known to men the terror of the lord , to convince them of the nature of sin , of their own lost and ruined condition by reason of it , through its guilt as both original in their natures , and actual in their lives , that they may be stirred up to fly from the wrath to come , and to lay hold on eternal life ; and thus as god is pleased to succeed them , do they endeavour to lay the great foundation jesus christ , in the hearts of their hearers , and to bring them to an interest in him by believing . in the farther pursuit of the work committed unto them , they endeavour more and more to declare unto , and instruct their hearers in all the mysteries and saving truths of the gospel , to the end that by the knowledge of them , they may be wrought unto obedience , and brought to conformity to christ , which is the end of their declaration ; and in the pursuit of their duty , there is nothing more that they insist upon , as far as ever i could observe , than an endeavour to convince men , that that faith or profession that doth not manifest it self , which is not justified by works , which doth not purifie the heart within , that is not fruitful in universal obedience to all the commands of god , is vain and unprofitable ; letting them know that though we are saved by grace , yet we are the workmanship of god created in christ jesus to good works , which he hath ordained for us to walk in them ; a neglect whereof doth uncontrollably evict men of hypocrisie and falseness in their profession ; that therefore these things in those that are adult , are indispensably necessary to salvation . hence do they esteem it their duty , continually to press upon their hearers the constant observance and doing of whatsover things are honest , whatsoever things are just , whatsoever things are pure , whatsoever things are comely , whatsoever things are of good report ; letting them know that those who are called to a participation of the grace of the gospel , have more , higher , stronger obligations upon them to righteousness , integrity , honesty , usefulness amongst men , in all moral duties , throughout all relations , conditions and capacities , than any others whatever . for any man to pretend , to write , plead that this they do not , but indeed do discountenance morality and the duties of it , is to take a liberty of saying what he pleases for his own purpose , when thousands are ready from the highest experience to contradict him . and if this false supposition should prove the soul that animates any discourses , let men never so passionately admire them , and expatiate in the commendation of them , i know some that will not be their rivals in their extasies . for the other things which those books are mostly filled withal , setting aside frivolous trifling exceptions about modes of carriage , and common phrases of speech , altogether unworthy the review or perusal of a serious person , they consist of such exceptions against expressions , sayings , occasional reflections on texts of scripture , invectives , and impertinent calling over of things past and by-gone , as the merit of the cause under contest is no way concerned in . and if any one would engage in so unhandsome an employment , as to collect such fond speeches , futilous expressions , ridiculous expositions of scripture , smutty passages , weak & impertinent discourses , yea profane scurrilities , which some others whom for their honors sake , and other reasons i shall not name , have in their sermons and discourses about sacred things been guilty of , he might provide matter enough for a score of such dialogues as the friendly debates , are composed of . but to return , that the advantages mentioned are somewhat peculiar unto dialogues , we have a sufficient evidence in this , that our author having another special design , he chose another way of writing suited thereunto . he professeth , that he hath neither hope , nor expectation to convince his adversaries of their crimes or mistakes , nor doth endeavour any such thing . nor did he meerly project to render them contemptible and ridiculous ; which to have effected , the writing of dialogues in his mannagement would have been most accommodate . but his purpose was to expose them to persecution , or to the severity of penal laws from the magistrate , and if possible , it may be , to popular rage and fury . the voice of his whole discourse is the same with that of the jews concerning st. paul , away with such fellows from the earth , for it is not meet they should live . such an account of his thoughts he gives us ; pag. 253. saith he , the only cause of all our troubles and disturbances ( which what they are he knows not , nor can declare ) is the inflexible perverfeness of about an hundred proud , ignorant , and seditious preachers , against whom if the severity of the laws were particularly levelled how easie would it be , &c. macte nova virtute puer , sic itur ad astra . but i hope it will appear before the close of this discourse , that our author is far from deserving the reputation of infallible in his politicks , whatever he may be thought to do in his divinity . it is sufficiently known how he is mistaken in his calculation of the numbers of those whom he designs to brand with the blackest marks of infamy , and whom he exposeth in his desires to the severities of law for their ruine . i am sure , it is probable , that there are more than an hundred of those whom he intends , who may say unto him , as gregory of nazianzen introduceth his father speaking to himself , nondum tot sunt anni tui , quot jam in sacris nobis sunt peracti victimis , who have been longer in the ministry than he in the world , but suppose there were but an hundred of them , he knows , or may know , when there was such a disparity in the numbers of them that contested about religion , that it was said of them , all the world against athanasius , and athanasius against the world ; who yet was in the right against them all , as they must acknowledge who frequently say or sing , his quicunque vult . but how came he so well acquainted with them all and every one , as to pronounce of them that they are proud , ignorant , and seditious ; allow him the liberty , which i see he will take whether we allow it him or no , to call whom he pleaseth seditious upon the account of reall or supposed principles not complyant with his thoughts and apprehensions ; yet that men are proud , and ignorant how he can prove but by particular instances from his own acquaintance with them , i know not ; and if he should be allowed to be a competent judge of knowledge and ignorance in the whole compass of wisdom and science , which it may be some will except against , yet unless he had personally conversed with them all , or were able to give sufficient instances of their ignorance from actings , writings , or expressions of their own , he would scarce be able to give a tolerable account of the honesty of this his p●remptory censure ; and surely this must needs be looked on , as a lovely , gentle , and philosophick humour , to judge all men proud and ignorant , who are not of our minds in all things , and on that ground alone . but yet let them be as ignorant as can be fancied , this will not determine the difference between them and their adversaries . one unlearned paphnutius in the council of nice stopped all the learned fathers when they were precipitately casting the church into a snare ; and others as unlearned as he , may honestly attempt the same at any time . and for our authors projection for the obtaining of quiet by severe dealings with these men in an especial manner , one of the same nature failed in the instance mentioned . for when athanasius stood almost by himself in the eastern empire for a profession in religion , which the supream magistrate and the generality of the clergy condemned , it was thought the levelling of severity in particular against him , would bring all to a composure . to this purpose after they had again and again charged him to be proud and seditious , they vigorously engaged in his prosecution , according to the projection here proposed , and sought him neer all the world over , but to no purpose at all , as the event discovered . for the truth which he professed having left its root in the hearts of multitudes of the people , on the first opportunity they returned again to the open avowing of it . but to return from this digression ! this being the design of our author , not so much to expose his adversaries to common contempt and laughter , as to ruine and destruction , he diverted from the beaten path of dialogues , and betook himself unto that of rhetorical invective declamations , which is peculiarly suited to carry on and promote such a design . i shall therefore here leave him for the present , following the triumphant chariot of his friend ; singing io triumphe ! and casting reflections upon the captives that he draggs after him at his chariot wheels , which will doubtless supply his imagination with a pleasing entertainment , untill he shall awake out of his dream , and find all the pageantry that his fancy hath erected round about him , to vanish and disappear . his next attempt is upon atheists , wherein i have no concern , nor his principal adversaries the non-conformists ; for my part i have had this advantage by my own obscurity and small consideration in the world , as never to converse with any persons that did , or durst question the being or providence of god , either really or in pretence . by common reports , and published discourses , i find that there are not a few in these dayes , who either out of pride and ostentation , or in a real complyance with their own darkness and ignorance , do boldly venture to dispute the things which we adore ; and if i am not greatly mis-informed , a charge of this prodigious licentiousness and impiety , may from pregnant instances , be brought neer the doors of some who on other occasions declaim against it . for practical atheism the matter seems to be unquestionable ; many live as though they believed neither god nor devil in the world , but themselves ; with neither sort am i concerned to treat at present , nor shall i examine the invectives of our author against them ; though i greatly doubt , whether ever such a kind of defence of the being of god was written by any man before him . if a man would make a judgement upon the genius and way of his discourse , he might possibly be tempted to fear , that it is persons , rather than things that are the object of his indignation ; and it may be the fate of some , to suffer under the infamy of atheism , as it is thought diagoras did of old , not for denying the deity , nor for any absurd conceptions of mind concerning it , but for deriding and contemning them , who without any interest in , or sense of religion , did foolishly , in idoliatrous instances make a pretence of it in the world . but whatever wickedness or miscarriages of this nature our author hath observed , his zeal against them were greatly to be commended , but that it is not in that only instance wherein he allows of the exercise of that vertue , let it then be his anger or indignation , or what he pleases , that he may not miss of his due praises and commendation . only i must say , that i question whether to charge persons enclined to atheism with profaning johnson and fletcher as well as the holy scriptures , be a way of proceeding probably suited to their conviction or reduction . it seems also that those who are here chastised do vent their atheism in scossing and drollery , jesting , and such like contemptible efforts of wit , that may take for a while amongst little and unlearned people , and immediately evaporate . i am afraid more of those who under pretences of sober reason do vent and maintain opinions and principles that have a direct tendency to give an open admission unto atheism in the minds of men , than of such fooleries . when others fury and raving cruelties succeeded not , he alone prevailed , qui solus accessit sobrius ad perdendam remp. one principle contended for as rational and true , which if admitted will insensibly seduce the mind unto , and justifie a practice ending in atheism , is more to be feared , than ten thousand jests and scoffs against religion , which methinks , amongst men of any tolerable sobriety should easily be buried under contempt and scorn . and our author may do well to consider whether he hath not , unwittingly i presume , in some instances , so expressed and demeaned himself , as to give no small advantage to those corrupt inclinations unto atheism , which abound in the hearts of men ; are not men taught here to keep the liberty of their minds and judgements to themselves , whilest they practise that which they approve not , nor can do so ; which is directly to act against the light and conviction of conscience ? and yet an associate of his in his present design , in a modest and free conference , tells us , that there is not awider step to atheism than to do any thing against conscience , and enforms his friend , that dissent out of grounds that appear to any founded on the will of god , is conscience ; but against such a conscience , the light , judgement and conviction of it , are men here taught to practise ; and thereby in the judgement of that author , are instructed unto atheism . and indeed if once men find themselves at liberty to practise contrary to what is prescribed unto them in the name and authority of god , as all things are which conscience requires , it is not long that they will retain any regard of him , or reverence unto him. it hath hitherto been the judgement of all , who have enquired into these things , that the great concern of the glory of god in the world , the interest of kings and rulers , of all governments whatever , the good and welfare of private persons , lyes in nothing more , than in preserving conscience from being debauched in the conducting principles of it ; and in keeping up its due respect to the immediate soveraignty of god over it in all things . neither ever was there a more horrid attempt upon the truth of the gospel , all common morality , and the good of mankind , than that which some of late years or ages have been engaged in , by suggesting in their casuistical writings such principles for the guidance of the consciences of men , as in sundry particular instances might set them free , as to practice , from the direct and immedsately influencing authority of god in his word . and yet i doubt not , but it may be made evident , that all their principle● in conjunction are scarce of so pernicious a tendency as this one general theorem , that men may lawfully act in the worship of god , or otherwise , against the light , dictates , or convictions of their own consciences . exempt conscience from an absolute , immediate , entire , universal dependance on the authority , will , and judgement of god , according to what conceptions it hath of them , and you disturb the whole harmony of divine providence in the government of the world ; and break the first link of that great chain whereon all religion and government in the world do depend . teach men to be like naaman the syrian to believe only in the god of israel , and to worship him according to his appointment by his own choice , and from a sense of duty , yet also to bow in the house of rimmon contrary to his light and conviction out of complyance with his master ; or with the men of samaria to fear the lord , but to worship their idols , and they will not fail at one time or other , rather to seek after rest in restless atheism , than to live in a perpetual conflict with themselves , or to cherish an everlasting sedition in their own bosomes . i shall not much reflect upon those expressions which our author is pleased to vent his indignation by ; such as religious rage , and fury , religious villany , religious lunacies , serious and consciencious villanies , wildness of godly madness , men lead by the spirit of god to disturb the publick peace , the world filled with a buzze and noise of the divine spirit , sanctified fury , sanctified barbarism , pious villanies , godly disobedience , sullen and cross-grained godliness , with innumerable others of the like kind ; which although perhaps he may countenance himself in the use of , from the tacite respect that he hath to the persons whom he intends to vilifie and reproach ; yet in themselves , and to others , who have not the same apprehensions of their occasion , they tend to nothing but to beget a scorn and derision of all religion , and the profession of it ; an humour which will not find where to rest or fix it self , untill it comes to be swallowed up in the abysse of atheism . we are at length arrived at the last act of this tragical preface ; and as in our progress we have rather heard a great noise and bluster , than really encountred either true difficulty or danger ; so now i confess that weariness of conversing with so many various sounds of the same signification , the summ of all being knaves , villains , fools , will carry me through the remainder of it , with some more than ordinary precipitation , as grudging an addition in this kind of employment to those few minutes wherein the preceding remarques were written or dictated . there are two or three heads which the remainders of this prefatory discourse may be reduced unto . first , a magnificent proclamation of his own achievements ; what he hath proved , what he hath done , especially in representing the inconsistence of liberty of conscience with the first and fundamental laws of government ; and i am content that he please himself with his own apprehensions , like him who admired at the marvelous feats performed in an empty theatre . for it may be that upon examination it will be found , that there is scarce in his whole discourse any one argument offered at , that hath the least seeming cogency towards such an end ; whether you take liberty of conscience , for liberty of judgement , which himself confesseth uncontroleable , or liberty of practice upon indulgence which he seems to oppose , an impartial reader will i doubt be so far from finding the conclusion mentioned to be evinced , as he will scarcely be able to satisfie himself that there are any premises that have a tendency thereunto . but i suppose he must extreamly want an employment who will design himself a business , in endeavouring to dispossess him of his self-pleasing imagination . yea he seems not to have pleaded his own cause absurdly at athens , who giving the city the news of a victory when they had received a fatal defeat , affirmed that publick thanks were due to him , for affording them two dayes of mirth and jollity , before the tidings came of their ill success ; which was more than they were ever like to see again in their lives . and there being as much satisfaction in a fancied , as a real success , though useless and failing , we shall leave our author in the highest contentment that thoughts of this nature can afford him . however it may not be amiss to mind him of that old good counsel , let not him that girdeth on his armour , boast like him that putteth it off . another part of his oration is to decry the folly of that bruitish apprehension that men can possibly live peaceably and quietly if they enjoy the liberty of their consciences ; where he fears not to affirm , that it is more elegible to tolerate the highest debauchertes , than liberty for men to worship god according to what they apprehend he requires ; whence some severe persons would be too apt it may be to make a conjecture of his own inclinations ; for it is evident that he is not absolutely insensible of self-interest in what he doth or writes . but the contrary to what he asserts , being a truth at this day written with the beams of the sun in many nations of europe , let envy , malice , fear , and revenge suggest what they please otherwise , and the nature of the thing it self denyed being built upon the best , greatest , and surest foundations and warranty that mankind hath to build on , or trust unto for their peace and security , i know not why it's denial was here ventured at , unless it were to embrace an opportunity once more to give vent to the remainders of his indignation , by revilings and reproaches , which i had hoped had been now exhausted . but these things are but collateral to his principal design in this close of his declamation ; and this is the removal of an objection , that liberty of conscience would conduce much to the improvement of trade in the nation . it is known that many persons of great wisdom and experience , and who , as it is probable , have had more time to consider the state and proper interest of this nation , and have spent more pains in the weighing of all things conducing thereunto than our author hath done , are of this mind and judgement . but he at once strikes them and their reasons dumb , by drawing out his gorgon's head , that he hath proved it inconsistent with government , and so it must needs be a foolish and silly thing to talk of its usefulness to trade . verum , ad populum phalera ; if great blustering words , dogmatical assertions , uncouth , unproved principles , accompanied with a pretence of contempt and scorn of all exceptions and oppositions to what is said , with the persons of them that make them , may be esteemed proofs , our author can prove what he pleaseth , and he is to be thought to have proved whatever he affirms himself so to have done . if sober reason , experience , arguments derived from common acknowledged principles of truth , if a confirmation of deductions from such principles , by confessed and commonly approved instances are necessary to make up convincing proofs in matters of this nature and importance , we are yet to seek for them , notwithstanding any thing that hath been offered by this author , or as far as i can conjecture is likely so to be . in the mean time i acknowledge many parts of his discourse to be singularly remarkable . his insinuation that the affairs of the kingdom are not in a fixed and established condition , that we are distracted amongst our selves with a strange variety of jealous●es and annimosities , and such like expressions , as if divulged in a book printed without licence , would and that justly , be looked on as seditious , are the foundations that he proceedeth upon . now as i am confident that there is very little ground , or none at all for these insinuations , so the publick disposing of the minds of men to fears , suspicious , and apprehensions of unseen dangers by such means , becomes them only , who care not what disadvantage they cast others , nay their rulers under , so they may compass and secure their own private ends and concerns . but yet not content to have expressed his own real or pretended apprehensions , he proceeds to manifest his scorn of those , or his smiling at them , who with mighty projects labour for the improvement of trade , which the council appointed , as i take it , by his majesty thence denominated , is more concerned in than the non-conformists , and may do well upon this information finding themselves lyable to scorn , to desist from such an useless and contemptible employment . they may now know , that to erect and encourage trading combinations , is only to build so many nests of faction and sedition ; for he sayes , there is not any sort of people so inclinable to seditious practices as the trading part of a nation ; and that their pride and arrogance naturally encrease with the improvement of their stock . besides the fanatick party , as he sayes , live in these greater societies , and it is a very odd and preposterous folly , to design the enriching of that sort of people ; for wealth doth but only pamper and encourage their presumption ; and he is a very silly man , and understands nothing of the follies , passions and inclinations of humane nature , who sees not that there is no creature so ungovernable as a wealthy fanatick . it cannot be denyed , but that this modern policy , runs contrary to the principles and experience of former ages . to preserve industrious men in a peaceable way of emproving their own interests , whereby they might partake in their own and family concerns , of the good and advantages of government , hath been by the weak and silly men of former generations , esteemed the most rational way of inducing their minds unto peaceable thoughts and resolutions . for as the wealth of men encreaseth , so do their desires and endeavours after all things and wayes whereby it may be secured ; that so they may not have spent their labour and the vigour of their spirits with reference unto their own good and that of their posterity in vain . yea , most men are found to be of issachar's temper , who when he saw , that rest was good , and the land pleasant , wherein his own advantages lay , bowed his shoulder to bear , and became a servant unto tribute ; fortes and miseri , have heretofore been only feared , and not such as found satisfaction to their desires in the encreases and successes of their endeavours . and as caesar said , he feared not those fat and corpulent persons anthony and dolabella , but those pale and lean discontented ones , brutus and cassius ; so men have been thought to be far less dangerous , or to be suspected in government , who are well clothed with their own wealth and concerns , than such as have nothing but themselves to lose , and by reason of their straights and distresses , do scarce judge them worth the keeping . and hath this gentleman really considered what the meaning of that word trade is , and what is the concernment of this nation in it ? or is he so fond of his own nations and apprehensions , as to judge it meet that the vital spirits and blood of the kingdom should be offered in sacrifice unto them ? solomon tells us , that the profit of the earth is for all , and the king himself is served by the field ; and we may truly in england say the same of trade ; all men know what respect unto it there is in the revenues of the crown , and how much they are concerned in its growth and promotion ; the rents of all from the highest to the lowest that have an interest in the soyl , are regulated by it , and rise and fall with it ; nor is there any possibility to keep them up to their present proportion and standard , much less to advance them , without the continuance of trade in its present condition at least , may without a steddy endeavour for its encrease , furtherance and promotion . noblemen and gentlemen must be contented to eat their own bief and mutton at home , if trade decay ; to keep up their antient and present splendour , they will find no way or means . corporations are known to be the most considerable and significant bodies of the common people , and herein lies their being and bread ; to diminish or discountenance their trade , is to starve them , and discourage all honest industry in the world . it was a sad desolation that not long since befell the great city by fire ; yet through the good providence of god , under the peaceable government of his majesty , it is rising out of its ashes , with a new signal beauty and lustre . but that consumption and devastation of it , which the pursuit of this council will inevitably produce , would prove fatal and irreparable . and as the interest of all the several parts of the common-wealth do depend on the trade of the people amongst our selves , so the honor , power and security of the whole in reference unto forraign nations , are resolved also into the same principles ; for as our soyl is but small in comparison of some of our neighbours , and the numbers of our people no wayes to be compared with theirs , so if we should forego the advantages of trade for which we have opportunities , and unto which the people of this nation have inclinations , above any countrey on nation in the world , we should quickly find how unequal the competition between them and us would be : for even our naval force , which is the honour of the king , the security of his kingdoms , the terror of his enemies , oweth its rise and continuance unto that preparation of persons employed therein , which is made by the trade of the nation . and if the councel of this author should be followed , to suspend all thoughts of the supportment , encouragement , and furtherance of trade , until all men by the severity of penalties should be induced to an uniformity in religion ; i doubt not but our envious neighbours would as readily discern the concernment of their malice and ill will therein , as hannibal did his , in the action of the roman general , who at the battel of cannae , according to their usual discipline , ( but fatally at that time misapplyed ) caused in the great distress of the army , his horsemen to alight and fight on foot , not considering the advantage of his great and politick enemy , as things then stood , who immediately said , i had rather he had delivered them all bound unto me , though he knew there was enough done to secure his victory . a survey of the first chapter . the author of this discourse , seems in this first chapter to design the stating of the controversie , which he intendeth to pursue and handle , ( as he expresseth himself pag. ii. ) as also to lay down the main foundations of his ensuing superstructure . nothing could be more regularly projected , nor more suited to the satisfaction of ingenious inquirers into the matters under debate ; for those , who have any design in reading , beyond a present divertisement of their minds , or entertainment of their fancies , desire nothing more than to have the subject matter which they exercise their thoughts about , clearly and distinctly proposed , that a true judgement may be made concerning what men say , and whereof they do affirm . but i fear our author hath fallen under the misadventure of a failure in these projections ; at least as unto that certainty , clearness , and perspicuity in the declaration of his conceptions , and expression of his assertions and principles ; without which all other ornaments of speech in matters of moment , are of no use or consideration . his language is good and proper , his periods of speech laboured , full , and even ; his expressions poynant towards his adversaries , and singly taken , appearing to be very significative and expressive of his mind . but i know not how it is come to pass , that what either through his own defect , as to a due comprehension of the notions whose mannagement he hath undertaken , or out of a design to cloud and obscure his sentiments , and to take the advantage of loose declamatory expressions , it is very hard , if possible , to gather from what he hath written , either what is the true state of the controversie proposed to discussion , or what is the precise determinate sense of of those words wherein he proposeth the principles that he proceeds upon . thus in the title of the book he asserts the power of the magistrate over the consciences of men ; elsewhere confines the whole work and duty of conscience to the inward thoughts and perswasions of the mind , over which the magistrate hath no power at all . conscience it self he sometimes sayes is every mans opinion ; sometimes he calls it an imperious faculty , which surely are not the same ; sometimes he pleads for the uncontrollable power of magistrates over religion and the consciences of men ; sometimes asserts their ecclesiastical jurisdiction as the same thing , and seemingly all that he intends ; whereas i suppose , no man ever yet defined ecclesiastical jurisdiction , to be , an uncontrollable power over religion and the consciences of men. the magistrates power over religion he asserts frequently , and denyeth outward worship to be any part of religion , and at last pleads upon the matter only for his power over outward worship . every particular vertue he affirms to be such , because it is a resemblance and imitation of some of the divine attributes ; yet also teacheth that there may be more vertues , or new ones that were not so , and that to be vertue in one place which is not so in another : sometimes he pleads that the magistrate hath power to impose any religion on the consciences of his subjects , that doth not countenance vice , or disgrace the deity ; and then anon pleads for it in indifferent things , and circumstances of outward worship only . also that the magistrate may oblige his subjects consciences to the performance of moral duties , and other duties in religious worship under penalties , and yet punisheth none for their crime and guilt , but for the example of others . and many other instances of the like nature may be given . now , whatever dress of words these things may be set off withal , they savour rankly of crude and undigested notions , not reduced unto such a consistency in his mind , as to suffer him to speak evenly , steadily , and constantly to them . upon the whole matter , it may not be unmeetly said of his discourse , what tally said of rullus his oration about the agrarian law ; concionem advocari jubet ; summâ cum expectatione concurritur ; explicat orationem sane longam & verbis valdè bonis ; vnum erat quod mihi vitiosum videbatur ; quòd tantâ ex frequentiâ nemo inveniri potuit qui intelligere posset quid diceret . hoc ille utrum ins●diarum caus● fecerit , an hac genere eloquentia delectetur , nescio ; tamen siqui acutiores in concione steterant , de lege agrairia nescio quid voluisse eum dicere suspicabantur . many good words it is composed of , many sharp reflections are made on others , a great appearance there is of reason ; but besides that , it is plain that he treats of the nonconformists and the magistrates power , and would have this latter exercised about the punishment or destruction of the former , ( which almost every page expresseth ) it is very , hard to gather what is the case he speaks unto , or what are principles he proceeds upon . the entrance of his discourse is designed to give an account of the great difficulty which he intends to assoyl , of the controversie that he will handle and debate , and of the difference which he will compose . here , if any where , accuracy , perspicuity , and a clear distinct direction of the minds of the readers unto a certain just apprehension of the matter in question and difference , ought to be expected . for if the foundation of discourses of this nature , be laid in terms general , ambiguous , loose , rhetorical , and flourishing , giving no particular determinate sense of the controversie , ( for so this is called by our author ) all . that ensues in the pursuit of what is so laid down , must needs be of the same complexion . and such appears to be the declamatory entrance of this chapter . for instead of laying a solid foundation to erect his superstructure upon , the author seems in it only to have built a castle in the air , that makes a goodly appearance and shew , but is of no validity or use . can he suppose that any man is the wiser , or the more intelligent in the difference about liberty of conscience , the power and duty of magistrates in granting or denying an indulgence unto the exercise of it , by reading an elegant parabolical discourse of two supream powers , the magistrate and conscience , contesting for soveraignty , in and about no man knows what ? what conscience is ; what liberty of conscience ; what it is pleaded for to extend unto , who are concerned in it ; whether its plea be resolved absolutely into its own nature and constitution , or into that respect which it hath to another common rule of the minds and conceptions of men in and about the worship of god , is not declared ; nor is it easily discernable , what he allows and approves of in his own discourse , and what he introduceth to reflect upon , and so reject . pag. 5. he tells us , that conscience is subject and accountable to god alone , that it owns no superiour but the lord of consciences . and pag. 7. that those who make it accountable to none but god lone , do in effect usurp their princes crown , defie his authority , and acknowledge no governour but themselves . if it be pleaded that in the first place , not what is , but what is unduly pretended is declared , his words may be as well so expounded in all his ascriptions unto magistrates also ; namely , that it is not with them as he asserts ; but only ' t is unduly pretended so to be , as to any thing that appears in the discourse . the distinct consideration of the principles of conscience , and the outward exercise of it , can alone here give any shew of relief . but as no distinction of that nature doth as yet appear , and if rested on , ought to have been produced by any one who understood himself , and intended not to deceive or entangle others , so when it is brought on the stage , its inconsistency to serve the end designed shall be evinced . but that a plea for the consciences of private men , ( submitting themselves freely and willingly to the supream power and government of magistrates in all things belonging to publick peace and tranquility , ) to have liberty to express their obedience unto god in the exercise of his outward worship , should receive such a tragical description of a rival supream power set up against the magistrate to the usurpation of his crown and dignity , is a new way of stating controversies whether in divinity or policy , which this author judgeth conducing to his design and purpose . and i shall say no more but that those who delight in such a way of writing , and do receive light and satisfaction thereby , do seem to be exercised in a logick that i was never acquainted withal , and which i shall not now enquire after . what seems to be of real difficulty in this matter which is so rhetorically exaggerated , our blessed saviour hath stated and determined in one word ; give , saith he , unto caesar the things that are caesar's , and to god the things that are gods ; and this he did , when he gave his disciples command not only to think , judge and believe according to what he should propose and reveal unto them , but also to observe and do in outward practices what ever he should command them . as he requires all subjection unto the magistrate in things of his proper cognizance , that is all things necessary to publick peace and tranquility in this world the great end of his authority : so he asserts also that there are things of god which are to be observed and practised , even all and every one of his own commands ; in a neglect whereof on any pretence or account , we give not unto god that which is his. and he doubted not , but that these things , these distinct respects to god and man , were exceedingly well consistent , and together directive to the same end of publick good . wherefore passing through the flourishes of this frontispiece with the highest inconcernment , we may enter the fabrick it self , where possibly we may find him declaring directly what it is that he asserts in this matter , and contendeth for ; and this he doth pag. 10. and therefore it is the design of this discourse by a fair and impartial debate to compose all these differences and adjust all these quarrells and contentions , and settle things upon their true and proper foundations ; first by proving it to be absolutely necessary to the peace and government of the world , that the supream magistrate of every commonwealth should be vested with a power to govern and conduct the consciences of subjects in affairs of religion . i am sure our author will not be surprized , if after he hath reported the whole party whom he opposeth , as a company of silly , foolish , illiterate persons , one of them should so far acknowledge his own stupidity , as to profess that after the consideration of this declaration of his intention and mind , he is yet to seek for the direct and determinate sense of his words , and for the principle that he designes the confirmation of . i doubt not but that the magistrate hath all that power which is absolutely necessary for the preservation of publick peace and tranquility in the world . but if men may be allowed to fancy what they please to be necessary unto that end , and thence to make their own measures of that power which is to be ascribed unto him , no man knows what bounds will be fixed unto that ocean wherein the leviathans they have framed in their imagination may sport themselves . some will perhaps think it necessary to this purpose that the magistrate should have power to declare , and determine whether there be a god or no ; whether if there be , it be necessary he should be worshipped or no ; whether any religion be needful in , or usefull to the world ; and if there be , then to determine what all subjects shall believe , and practise from first to last in the whole of it . and our author hopes that some are of this mind . others may confine it to lesser things , according as their own interest doth call upon them so to do ; though they are not able to assign a clear distinction between what is subjected unto him , and what may plead an exemption from his authority . he indeed who is the fountain and original of all power , hath both assigned its proper end , and fully suited it to the attainment thereof . and if the noise of mens lusts , passions , and interests , were but a little silenced , we should quickly hear the harmonious consenting voice of humane nature it self , declaring the just proportion that is between the grant of power and its end ; and undeniably express it in all the instances of it . for as the principle of rule and subjection , is natural to us , concreated with us , and indispensably necessary to humane society in all the distinctions it is capable of , and relations whence those distinctions arise ; so nature it self duly attended unto , will not fail by the reason of things , to direct us unto all that is essential unto it , and necessary unto its end . arbitrary fictions of ends of government , and what is necessary thereunto , influenced by present interest , and arising from circumstances confined to one place , time , or nation , are not to be imposed on the nature of government it self ; which hath nothing belonging unto it but what inseparably accompanieth mankind as sociable . but to let this pass ; the authority here particularly asserted , is a power in the supream magistrate to govern and guide the consciences of his subjects in affairs of religion . let any man duly consider these expressions , and if he be satisfied by them as to the sense of the controversie under debate , i shall acknowledge that he is wiser than i , which is very easie for any one to be . what are the affairs of religion here intended , all or some ? whether in religion , or about it ; what are the consciences of men , and how exercised about these things ; what it is to govern and conduct them ; with what power , by what means this may be done ; i am at a loss for ought that yet is here declared . there is a guidance , conduct , yea government of the consciences of men , by instructions and directions in a due proposal of rational and spiritual motives for those ends ; such as is that which is vested in , and exercised by the guides of the church ; and that in subjection to , and dependance on christ alone , as hath been hitherto apprehended ; though some now seem to have a mind to change their master , and to take up praesente numine who may be of more advantage to them . that the magistrate hath also power so to govern and conduct the consciences of his subjects in his way of administration , that is by ordering them to be taught , instructed , and guided in their duty , i know none that doth deny . so did jehosophat , 2 chron. 17 , 7 , 8 , 9. but it seems to be a government and guidance of another nature that is here intended . to deliver our selves therefore from the deceit and intanglement of these general expressions , and that we may know what to speak unto , we must seek for a declaration of their sense and importance from what is elsewhere in their pursuit affirmed and explained by their author . his general assertion is ( as was observed ) that the magistrate hath power over the consciences of his subjects in religion , as appears in the title of his book ; here p. 10. that power , is said to be , to govern and conduct their consciences in religious affairs ; pag. 13. that religion is subject to his dominion as well as all other affairs of state , pag. 27. it is a soveraignty over mens consciences in matters of religion , and this universal , absolute , and uncontrollable ; matters of religion are as uncontrollably subject to the supream power , as all other civil concerns ; he may if he please reserve the exercise of the priesthood to himself , p. 32. that is , what now in religion corresponds unto the ancient priesthood , as the ordering bishops and priests , administring sacraments and the like ; as the papists in q. elizabeth 's time did commonly report , in their usual manner , that it was done by a woman amongst us , by a fiction of such principles as begin it seems now to be owned . that if this power of the government of religion be not universal and unlimited it is useless , p. 35. that this power is not derived from christ , nor any grant of his , but is antecedent to his coming , or any power given unto him or granted by him , pag. 40. magistrates have a power to make that a particular of the divine law , which god had not made so , p. 80. and to introduce new duties in the most important parts of religion . so that there is a publick conscience which men are in things of a publick concern ( relating to the worship of god ) to attend unto and not to their own . and if there be any sin in the command , he that imposed it , shall answer for it , and not i whose whole duty it is to obey , p. 308. hence the command of authority will warrant obedience , and obedience will hallow my actions , and excuse me from sin , ibid. hence it follows , that whatever the magistrate commands in religion , his authority doth so immediately affect the consciences of men , that they are bound to observe it on the pain of the greatest sin and punishment ; and he may appoint and command whatever he pleaseth in religion , that doth not either countenance vice , or disgrace the deity , p. 85. and many other expressions are there of the general assertion before laid down . this therefore seems to me , and to the most impartial considerations of this discourse that i could bring unto it , to be the doctrine or opinion proposed and advanced for the quieting and composing of the great tumults described in its entrance ; namely , that the supream magistrate in every nation hath power to order and appoint what religion his subjects shall profess and observe , or what he pleaseth in religion , as to the worship of god required in it , provided that he enjoyneth nothing that countenanceth vice , or disgraceth the deity ; and thereby binds their consciences to profess and observe that which is by him so appointed ( and nothing else are they to observe ) making it their duty in conscience so to do ; and the highest crime or sin to do any thing to the contrary ; and that whatever the precise truth in these matters be , or whatever be the apprehensions of their own consciences concerning them . now if our author can produce any law , usage , or custome of this kingdom , any statute or act of parliament , any authentick record , any acts or declarations of our kings , any publickly authorised writing , before or since the reformation , declaring , asserting , or otherwise approving the power and authority described , to belong unto , to be claimed or exercised by the kings of this nation , i will faithfully promise him never to write one word against it , although i am sure i shall never be of that mind . and if i mistake not in a transient reflection on these principles , compared with those which the church of england hath formerly pleaded against them who opposed her constitutions , they are utterly by them cast out of all consideration ; and this one notion is advanced in the room of all the foundations , which for so many years her defenders , ( as wife and as learned as this author ) have been building upon . but this is not my concernment to examine ; i shall leave it unto them whose it is , and whose it will be made appear to be , if we are again necessitated to engage in this dispute . for the present ; be it granted , that it is the duty , and in the power of every supream magistrate , to order , and determine what religion , what way , what modes in religion shall be allowed , publickly owned , and countenanced , and by publick revenue maintained in his dominions . that is , this is allowed with respect to all pretensions of other soveraigns , or of his own subjects ; with respect unto god , it is his truth alone , the religion by him revealed , and the worship by him appointed that he can so allow or establish . the rule that holds in private persons with respect to the publick magistrate , holds in him with respect unto god. illud possumus quod jure possumus . it is also agreed , that no men , no individual person , no order , or society of men , are either in their persons or any of their outward concerns , exempted , or may be so on the account of religion , from his power and jurisdiction ; nor any causes that are lyable unto a legal , political disposal and determination ; it is also freely acknowledged that whatever such a magistrate doth determi●● about the observances of religion . under what penalties soever , his subjects are bound to observe what he doth so command and appoint , unless by general or especial rules , their consciences are obliged to a dissent , or contrary observation by the authority of god and his word ; in this case they are to keep their souls entire in their spiritual subjection unto god , and quietly and peaceably to bear the troubles , and inconveniencies which on the account thereof may befall them , without the least withdrawing of their obedience from the magistrate . and in this state of things as there is no necessity or appearance of it , that any man should be brought into such a condition , as wherein sin on the one hand , or the other , cannot be avoided ; so that state of things will probably occurr in the world , as it hath done in all ages hitherto , that men may be necessitated to sin , or suffer . to winde up the state of this controversie ; we say that antecedent to the consideration of the power of the magistrate , and all the influence that it hath upon men or their consciences , there is a superiour determination of what is true , what false in religion , what right and what wrong in the worship of god , wherein the guidance of the consciences of men doth principally depend , and whereinto it is ultimately resolved . this gives an obligation , or liberty unto them , antecedent unto the imposition of the magistrate , of whose command and our actual obedience unto them in these things , it is the rule and measure . and i think there is no principle , no common presumption of nature , nor dictate of reason more evident , known , or confessed , than this , that whatever god commands us in his worship or otherwise , that we are to do ; and whatever he forbids us , that we are not to do , be the things themselves in our eye great , or small . neither is there any difference in these things with respect unto the way or manner of the declaration of the will of god ; whether it be by innate common light , or by revelation , all is one ; the authority and will of god in all is to be observed . yea a command of god made known by revelation , ( the way which is most contended about ) may suspend as to any particular instance , the greatest command that we are obliged unto by the law of nature in reference unto one another ; as it did in the precept given to abraham for the sacrificing of his son. and we shall find our author himself setting up the supremacy of conscience in opposition unto , and competition with that of the magistrate , ( though with no great self-consistency ) ascribing the preheminence and prevalency in obligation unto that of conscience , and that in the principal and most important duties of religion and humane life . such are all those moral vertues , which have in their nature a resemblance of the divine perfections , wherein he placeth the substance of religion ; with respect unto these , he so setteth up the throne of conscience , as to affirm that if any thing be commanded by the magistrate against them , to disobey him is no sin , but a duty ; and we shall find the case to be the same in matters of meer revelation . for what god commands that he commands , by what way soever that commnad be made known to us . and there is no consideration that can adde any thing to the obligatory power and efficacy of infinite authority . so that where the will of god is the formal reason of our obedience , it is all one how or by what means it is discovered unto us , whatever we are instructed in by innate reason , or by 〈◊〉 ▪ the reason why we are 〈◊〉 by it , is neither the one nor the other , but the authority of god in both . but we must return unto the consideration of the sentiments of our author in this matter as before laid down . the authority ascribed to the civil magistrate being as hath been expressed ; it will be very hard for any one to distinguish between it and the soveraignty that the lord christ himself hath in and over his church ; yea if there be any advantage on either side , or a comparative preheminence , it will be found to be cast upon that of the magistrate . is the lord christ the lord of the souls and consciences of men ? hath he dominion over them to rule them in the things of the worship of god ? it is so with the magistrate also ; he hath an universal power over the consciences of his subjects . doth the lord christ require his disciples to do and observe in the worship of god what ever he commanded them ? so also may the magistrate , the rule and conduct of conscience in these matters belonging unto him ; provided that he command nothing that may countenance vice , or disgrace the deity ; which , with reverence be it spoken , our lord jesus christ himself , not only on the account of the per●ection and rectitude of his own nature , but also of his commission from the father , could not do . is the authority of christ the formal reason making obedience necessary to his commands and precepts ? so is the authority of the magistrate in reference unto what he requires . do men therefore sin if they neglect the observance of the commands of christ in the worship of god , because of his immediate authority so to command them binding their consciences ? so do men sin if they omit or neglect to do what the magistrate requires in the worship of god because of his authority , without any farther respect . hath the lord christ instituted two sacraments in the worship of god , that is outward visible signs , or symbols , of inward invisible or spiritual grace ? the magistrate if he please may institute and appoint twenty under the names of significant ceremonies ; that is outward visible signs of inward spiritual grace , which alone is the significancy contended about . hath the magistrate this his authority in and over religion and the consciences of men from jesus christ ? no more then christ hath his authority from the magistrate ; for he holds it by the law of nature antecedent to the promise and coming of christ ? might christ in his own person administer the holy things of the church of god ? not in the church of the jews , for he sprang of the tribe of judah , concerning which nothing was spoken as to the priesthood ; only he might in that of the gospel , but hath judged meet to commit the actual administration of them to others ? so is it with the magistrate also . thus far then christ and the magistrate seem to stand on even or equal terms ; but there are two things remaining that absolutely turn the scale and cast the advantage on the magistrates side . for first , men may do and practise many things in the worship of god which the lord christ hath no where , nor by any means required ; yea to think that his word or the revelation of his mind and will therein , is the sole and adequate rule of religious worship , is reported as an opinion foolish , absurd , impious and destructive of all government . if this be not supposed not only the whole design of our author in this book is defeated , but our whole controversie also is composed and at an end . but on the other hand , no man must do or practise any thing in that way , but what is prescribed , appointed and commanded by the magistrate , upon pain of sin , schism , rebellion and all that follows thereon . to leave this unasserted is all that the non-conformists would desire in order unto peace . comprehension and indulgence would ensue thereon . here i think the magistrate hath the advantage . but that which follows will make it yet more evident ; for secondly , suppose the magistrate require any thing to be done and observed in the worship of god , and the lord christ require the quite contrary in a mans own apprehension , so that he is as well satisfied in his apprehension of his mind as he can be of any thing that is proposed to his faith and conscience in the word of god ; in this case he is to obey magistrate , and not christ , as far as i can learn ; unless all confusion and disorder be admitted an entrance into the world . yea , but this seems directly contrary to that rule of the apostles , which hath such an evidence and power of rational conviction attending it , that they refer it to the judgement of their adversaries , and those persons of as perverse corrupt minds and prejudicate engagements against them and their cause , as ever lived in the world ; namely , whether it be meet to obey god or man , judge ye . but we are told , that this holds only in greater matters ; the logick ( by the way ) of which distinction , is as strange as its divinity . for if the formal reason of the difference intimated , arise from the comparison between the authority of god and man , it holds equally as to all things small or great that they may be oppositely concerned in . besides who shall judge what is small , or what is great in things of this nature ? cave ne titubes . grant but the least judgement to private men themselves in this matter , and the whole fabrick tumbles ; if the magistrate be judge of what is great and of what is little , we are still where we were without hopes of delivery . and this to me is a notable instance of the preheminence of the magistrate above christ in this matter . some of the old irish have a proverbial speech amongst them , that if christ had not been christ when he was christ , patrick had been christ ; but it seems now that takeing it for granted that he was christ , yet we have another that is so also ; that is lord over the souls and consciences of men ; and what can be said more of him , who sits in the temple of god , and shews himself to be god. as we formerly said non-conformists who are unacquainted with the mysteries of things of this nature , must needs desire to know whether these be the avowed principles of the church of england , or whether they are only inventions to serve a present turn of the pursuit of some mens designs . are all the old pleas of the jus divinum of episcopacy , of example and direction apostolical , of a parity of reason between the condition of the church whilst under extraordinary officers , and whilst under ordinary ; of the power of the church to appoint ceremonies for decency and order , of the consistency of christian liberty with the necessary practice of indifferent things , of the pattern of the churches of old , which ( whether , duly or otherwise we do not now determine ) have been insisted on in this cause , swallowed all up in this abysse of magistratical omnipotency , which plainly renders them useless and unprofitable ? how unhappy hath it been that the christian world was not sooner blessed with this great discovery of the only way and means of putting a final end , unto all religious contests ? that he should not until now appear , qui genus humanum ingenio superavit , & omnes praestrinxit stellas , exortus at aetherius sol . but every age produceth not a columbus . many indeed have been the disputes of learned men about the power of magistrates in and concerning religion . with us it is stated in the recorded actings of our soveraign princes , in the oath of supremacy , and the acts of parliament concerning it , with other authentick writings explanatory thereof . some have denyed him any concern herein ; our author is none of them ? but rather like the phrenetick gentleman who when he was accused in former dayes , for denying the corporal presence of christ in the sacrament : replyed in his own defence , that he believed him to be present booted and spurred as he rode to capernaum . he hath brought him in booted and spurred , yea armed cap-a-pie into the church of god , and given all power into his hands to dispose of the worship of god according to his own will and pleasure . and that not with respect unto outward order only , but with direct obligation upon the consciences of men . but doubtless it is the wisdom of soveraign princes to beware of this sort of enemies ; persons who to promote their own interest make ascriptions of such things unto them , as they cannot accept of , without the utmost hazzard of the displeasure of god. is it meet that to satisfie the desires of any , they should invade the prerogative of god , or set themselves down at his right hand in the throne of his only begotten son ? i confess they are no way concerned in what others for their advantage sake , as they suppose , will ascribe unto them , which they may sufficiently disown by scorn and silence . nor can their sin involve them in any guilt . it was not the vain acclamation of the multitude unto herod , the voice of god and not of man , but his own arrogant satisfaction in that blasphemous assignation of divine glory to him , that exposed him to the judgements and vengeance of god. when the princes of israel found by the answer of the reubenites that they had not transgressed against the law of gods worship , in adding unto it or altering of it , which they knew would have been a provocation not to have been passed over without a recompence of revenge ; they replyed unto them , now have you delivered the children of israel out of the hand of the lord ; and it is to be desired that all the princes of the israel of god in the world , all christian potentates , would diligently watch against giving admission unto any such insinuations , as would deliver them into the hand of the lord. for my own part , such is my ignorance , that i know not , that any magistrate from the foundation of the world , unless it were nebuchadnezzar , cai●s caligula , domitian and persons like to them , ever claimed or pretended to exercise the power here assigned unto them . the instances of the laws and edicts of constantine in the matters of religion and the worship of god , of theodosius and gratian , arcadius , martian and other emperours of the east remaining in the code and novels ; the capitular of the western emperours , and laws of gothish kings , the right of ecclesiastical jurisdiction inherent in the imperial crown of this nation , and occasionally exercised in all ages are of no concernment in this matter . for no man denyes but that it is the duty of the supream magistrate to protect and further the true religion , and right worship of god , by all wayes and means suited and appointed of god thereunto . to encourage the professors thereof , to protect them from wrong and violence , to secure them in the performance of their duties , is doubtless incumbent on them . whatever under pretence of religion brings actual disturbance unto the peace of mankind , they may coerce and restrain . when religion as established in any nation by law , doth or may interest the professors of it , or guides in it , in any priviledges , advantages , or secular emoluments , which are subject and lyable , as all humane concerns , to doubts , controversies , and litigious contests in their security and disposal , all these things depend meerly and solely on the power of the magistrate , by whose authority they are originally grantted , and by whose jurisdictive power both the persons vested with them , and themselves are disposable . but for an absolute power over the consciences of men to bind or oblige them formally thereby , to do whatever they shall require in the worship of god , so as to make it their sin deserving eternal damnation not so to do , without any consideration whether the things are true or false , according to the mind of god or otherwise , yea though they are apprehended by them who are so obliged to practise them , to be contrary to the will of god , that this hath hitherto been claimed by any magistrate , unless such as those before mentioned , i am yet to seek . and the case is the same with respect unto them who are not satis●ied that what is so prescribed unto them will be accepted with god. for whereas in all that men do in the worship of god , they ought to be fully perswaded of its acceptableness to god in their own minds , seeing whatever is not of faith is sin , he that doubteth is in a very little better capacity to serve god on such injunctions , then he who apprehendeth them to be directly contrary to his mind . if an edict were drawn up for the settlement of religion and religious worship in any christian nation , according to the principles and directions before laid down , it may be there would be no great strife in the world by whom it should be first owned and espoused . for it must be of this importance . whereas we have an vniversal and absolute power over the consciences of all our subjects in things appertaining to the worship of god ; so that if we please we can introduce new duties , ( never yet heard of , ) in the most important parts of religion ( pag. 80. ) and may impose on them in the practice of religion and divine worship what we please ; so that in our judgement it doth not countenance vice , nor disgrace the deity , ( pag. 85. ) and whereas this power is naturally inherent in us , not given or granted unto us by jesus christ , but belonged to us , or our predecessors before ever he was born , nor is expressed in the scripture , but rather supposed ; and this being such as that we our selves if we would , ( whether we be man or woman ) ( here france must be excepted by vertue of the salique law , though the whole project be principally calculated for that meridian ) might exercise the special offices and duties of religion in our own person , especially that of the priesthood , though me are pleased to transfer the exercise of it unto others ; and whereas all our prescriptions , impositions , and injunctions , in these things , do immediately affect and bind the consciences of our subjects because they are ours , whether they be right or wrong , true or false , so long as in our judgement they neither ( as was said ) countenance vice nor disgrace the deity , we do enact and ordain as followeth . ( here , if you please , you may intersert the scheme of religion given us by our author in his second chapter , and add unto it ; that because sacrifices were a way found out by honest men of old , to express their gratitude unto god thereby , so great and necessary a part of our religious duty ; it be enjoyned that the use of them be again revived ; seeing there is nothing in them that offends against the bounds prescribed to the power to be expressed ; and that men in all places do offer up bulls and goats , sheep , and fowls , to god , with as many other institutions of the like nature , as shall be thought meet ; ) hereunto add , now our express will and pleasure is , that every man may , and do think and judge what he pleaseth concerning the things enjoyned and enacted by vs ; for what have we to do with their thoughts and judgements ? they are under the empire and dominion of conscience , which we cannot invade if we would ; they may if they please judge them inconvenient , foolish , absurd , yea contrary to the mind , will , and law of god : our only intention , will and pleasure is , to bind them to the constant observation and practice of them , and that under the penalties of hanging and damnation . i know not any expression in such an impious and futilous edict , that may not be warranted out of the principles of this discourse ; the main parts of it being composed out of the words and phrases of it , and those used , to the best of my understanding , in the sense fixed to them by our author . now , as was said before , i suppose christian princes will not be earnest in their contests , who shall first own the authority intimated , and express it in a suitable exercise . and if any one of them should put forth his hand unto it , he will find that — furiarum maxima juxta accubat , & manibus prohibet contingere mensas . there is one who layes an antecedent claim to a sole interest in this power , and that bottomed on other manner of pretensions than any as yet have been pleaded in their behalf . for the power and authority here ascribed unto princes , is none other but that which is claimed by the pope of rome , ( with some few enlargements ) and appropriated unto him by his canonists and courtiers . only here the old gentleman , ( as he is called by our author ) hath the advantage ; that beside the precedency of his claim , it being entred on record at least six or seven hundred years before any proctor or advocate appeared in the behalf of princes , he hath forestall'd them all in the pretence of infallibility ; which doubtless is a matter of singular use in the exercise of the power contended about . for some men are so peevish as to think that thus to deal with religion and the consciences of men , belongs to none but him , who is absolutely , yea essentially so , that is infallible . for as we have now often said ( as contrary to their design men in haste oftentimes speak the same things over and over ) as to all ecclesiastical jurisdiction over persons and causes ecclesiastical , and the soveraign disposal of all the civil and political concernments of religion which is vested in the imperial crown of this nation , and by sundry acts of parliament is declared so to be , i shall be alwayes ready to plead the right of our kings , and all christian kings whatever , against the absurd pleas and pretences of the pope ; so as to this controversie between him and such princes as shall think meet to contend with him about it , concerning the power over the consciences of men before described , i shall not interpose my self in the scuffle ; as being fully satisfied they are contending about that which belongs to neither of them . but what reason is there , why this power should not be extended unto the inward thoughts and apprehensions of men about the worship of god , as well as to the expression of them in pure spiritual acts of that worship . the power asserted i presume will be acknowledged to be from god ; though i can scarce meet with the communication and derivation of it from him in this discourse . but whereas , it is granted on all hands , that the powers that be are of god , and that none can have authority over an other , unless it be originally given him from above ; i desire to be informed why the other part of the power mentioned , namely over the thoughts , judgements , and apprehensions of men in the things of the worship of god , should not be invested in the magistrate also ; that so he having declared what is to be believed , thought , and judged in such things , all men should be obliged so to believe , think , and judge ; for this power god can give ; and hath given it unto jesus christ. i presume , it will be said , that this was no way needful for the preservation of peace in humane society , which is the end for which all this power is vested in the magistrate . for let men believe , think , and judge what they please , so long as their outward actings are , or may be over-ruled , there is no danger of any publick disturbance . but this seems to be a mighty uneasie condition for mankind ; namely to live continually in a contradiction between their judgements and their practices , which in this case is allowed to be incident unto them . constantly to judge one way best and most according to the mind of god in his worship , and constantly to practise another , will , it is to be feared , prove like the conflicting of vehement vapours with their contrary qualities , that at one time or other will produce an earthquake . how then if men weary of this perplexing distorting condition of things in their minds , should be provoked to run to excesses and inordinate courses for their freedom and rest , such as our author excellently displayes in all their hideous colours and appearances , and which are really pernicious to humane policy and society ? were it not much better that all these inconveniencies had been prevented in the first instance , by taking care that the faith , thoughts , perswasions , and judgements of all subjects about the things of god , should be absolutely bound up unto the declared conceptions of their rulers in these matters ? let it not be pretended , that this is impossible , and contrary to the natural liberty of the minds of men , as rational creatures guiding and determining themselves according to their own reason of things and understandings . for do but fix the declared will of the ruler , in the room and place of divine revelation , ( which is no hard matter to do , which some actually do universally , and our author as to a great share and proportion ) and the obligation sought after to prevent all inconvencies in government , falls as full and directly upon the minds , thoughts , and judgements of men , as upon any of their outward actions . and this , for the substance of it , is now pleaded for ; seeing it is pretended that in all things dubious , where men cannot satisfie themselves that it is the will of god that they should do a thing , or no , the declaration of the magistrate determines not only their practice , but their judgement also , and gives them that full perswasion of their minds which is indispensably required unto their acting in such things ; and that faith which frees them from sin ; for he that doubteth , is damned if he eat . but it will be said , that there will be no need hereof ; for let men think and judge what they please , whilst they are convinced and satisfied that it is their duty not to practise any thing outwardly in religion , but what is prescribed by their rulers , it is not possible that any publick evil should ensue upon their mental conceptions only . we observed before that the condition described is exceedingly uneasie ; which i suppose will not be denyed by men who have seriously considered , what it is either to judge or practise any thing that lyes before them with reference unto the judgment of god. and that which should tye men up to rest perpetually in such a restless state , is as it seems a meer conviction of their duty . they ought to be , and are supposed to be convinced that it is their duty to maintain the liberty of their minds and judgements , but to submit in their outward practice universally to the laws of men that are over them . and this sense and conviction of duty , is a sufficient security unto publick tranquility , in all that contrariety and opposition of sentiments unto established religion and forms of worship that may be imagined ; but if this be so ; why will not the same conviction and sense of duty restrain them , who do peaceably exercise the worship of god according to the light and dictates of their consciences , from any actings whatever that may tend to the disturbance of the publick peace ? duty , nakedly considered , is even as such , the greatest obligation on the minds of men ; and the great security of others in their actings ariseth from the●c● . 〈◊〉 more it is influenced and advantaged by outward considerations , the less it is assaulted and opposed by things grievous and perplexing in the way of the discharge of it , the more efficacious will be its operations on the minds of men , and the firmer will be the security unto others that thence ariseth . now these advantages lye absolutely on the part of them who practise , or are allowed so to do , according to their own light and perswasion in the worship of god , wherein they are at rest and full satisfaction of mind ; and not on theirs who all their dayes are bound up to a perverse distorted posture of mind and soul , in judging one thing to be best and most pleasing unto god , and practising of the contrary . such an one , is the man that of all others , rulers have need i think to be most jealous of . for what security can be had of him , who hath inured himself unto a continual contradiction between his faith and his practice ? for my part i should either expect no other measure from him in any other thing , nor ever judge that his profession and wayes of actings are any sufficient indications of his mind , ( which takes away all security from mankind ) or fear that his convictions of light and knowledge , ( as he apprehends ) would at one time or other precipitate him into attempts of irregularity and violence for his own relief . — hic nig●r est , hunc tu romane caveto . it will be said , perhaps , that we need not look farther for the disturbance of publick peace , from them who practise outwardly any thing in the worship of god but what is prescribed , established , and enjoyned ; seeing that every such practice is such a disturbance it self . i say this pretence is miserably ridiculous and contemptible , and contrary to the common experience of mankind . if this were so , the whole world for 300 years , lived in one continual disturbance and tumult upon the account of christian religion , whose professors constantly practised and performed that in the worship of god , which was so far from being established or approved by publick authority , that it was proscribed and condemned under penalties of all sorts , pecuniary , corporal , and sanguinary or capital . but we see no such matter ensued , nor the least disquietment unto the world , but what was given unto it by the rage of bloody persecutors , that introduced the first convulsions into the roman empire , which were never well quieted , but ended in its dissolution . the experience also of the present and next preceding ages , casts this frivolous exception out of consideration . and as such a practice , even against legal prohibitions , though it be by the transgression of a penal law , is yet in it self and just consequence remote enough from any disturbance of government , ( unless we should suppose that every non-observance of a penal statute invalidates the government of a nation , which were to fix it upon such a foundation , as will not afford it the steddiness of a weathercok ; ) so being allowed by way of exemption , it contains no invasion upon , or intrusion into the rights of others ; but being accompanied with the abridgement of the priviledges of none , or the neglect of any duty required to the good of the common-wealth , it is as consistent with , and may be as conducing to publick good and tranquility , as any order of religious things in the world , as shall be elsewhere demonstrated . it remains therefore that the only answer to this consideration is , that men who plead for indulgence and liberty of conscience in the worship god according to his word , and the light which he hath given them therein , have indeed no conscience at all , and so are not to be believed as to what they profess against sinister and evil practises . this flaile i know no fence against , but this only ; that they have as good and better grounds to suspect him to have no conscience at all , who upon unjust surmises shall so injuriously charge them , as finding him in a direct transgression of the principal rules that conscience is to be guided and directed by , than he hath to pronounce such a judgement concerning them and their sincerity in what they prosess . and whether such mutual censures tend not to the utter overthrow of all peace , love , and security amongst mankind is easie to determine . certainly it is the worst game in the world for the publick , to have men bandying suspicions one against another ; and thereon managing mutual charges of all that they do surmise , or what else they please to give the countenance of surmise unto . i acknowledge the notion insisted on , namely , that mhilest men reserve to themselves the freedom and liberty of judging what they please , or what seems good unto them in matters of religion and the worship of god , they ought to esteem it their duty to practise in all things according to the prescription of their rulers , though every may contrary unto , and inconsistent with their own judgements and perswasions , unless it be in things that countenance vice , or disgrace the deity ( where of yet it may be , it will not be thought meet that they themselves should judge for themselves and their own practise , seeing they may extend their conceptions about what doth so unto such minute instances as would frustrate the whole design ) is exceedingly accommodated to the corrupt lusts and affections of men , and suited to make provision for their security in this world , by an exemption from the indispensable command of professing the truth communicated and known unto them ; a sense of the obligation where of , hath hitherto exposed innumerable persons in all ages to great difficulties , dangers , and sufferings , yea to death the height and summ of all . for whereas men have been perswaded that with the heart man believeth unto righteousness , and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation ; the latter clause is in many cases hereby sufficiently superseded ; and the troublesome duty seeming to be required in it , is removed out of the way . it will not , it may be , be so easie to prove that in the religion of the mahumetans there is any thing enjoyned in practise , that will directly fall under the limitations assigned unto the complyance with the commands of supeperiours contended for . and therefore let a man but retain his own apprehensions concerning jesus christ and the gospel , it may be lawful for him , yea be his duty to observe the worship enjoyned by the law of mahomet , if his lot fall to live under the power of the grand seignior , or any soveraign prince of the same perswasion . but the case is clear in the religion of the papists , which is under the protection of the greatest number of supream magistrates in europe . it will not be pretended , i suppose by our author , that there is any thing in the confession of the church of rome , or imposed by it on the practices of men , that directly gives countenance unto any immorality , especially as the sense of that term is by him stated ; and it is no easie matter for ordinary men to prove and satisfie themselves , that there is ought in their modes of worship of such a tendency , as to cast disgrace upon the deity ; especially considering with how much learning and diligence the charge of any such miscarriage is endeavoured to be answered and removed ; all which pleas ought to be satisfied , before a man can make sedately a determinate judgement of the contrary . let then men's judgements be what they will in the matters of difference between protestants and papists , it is on this hypothesis , the duty of all that live under the dominion of soveraign popish princes , outwardly to comply with and practise that religious worship that is commanded by them and enjoyned . the case is the same also as to the religion of the jews . now as this casts a reflection of incredible folly and unexpiable guilt upon all protestant martyrs , in casting away their own lives , and disobeying the commands of their lawful soveraigns ? so it exposeth all the protestants in the world who are still in the same condition of subjection , to the severe censures of impiety and rebellion ; and must needs exasperate their rulers to pursue them to destruction , under pretence of unwarrantable obstinacy in them . for if we wholly take off the protection of conscience in this matter , and its subjection to the authority of god alone , there is no plea left to excuse dissenting protestants from the guilt of such crimes , as may make men justly cry out against them as the jews did against st. paul , away with them , away with them , it is not meet that such fellows should live ; or , frotestantes ad leones , according to the old cry of the pagans against the primitive christians . but if this should prove to be a way of teaching and justifying the grossest hypocrisie and dissimulation that the nature of man is capable of , a means to cast off all regard unto the authority of god over the wayes and lives of men , all the rhetorick in the world shall never perswade me that god hath so moulded and framed the order and state of humane affairs , that it should be any way needful to the preservation of publick peace and tranquility . openness , plainness of heart , sincerity in our actions and professions , generous honesty , and an universal respect in all things to the supream rector of all , the great possessour of heaven and earth , with an endeavour to comply with his present revealed mind , and future judgement , are far better foundations for , and ligaments of publick peace and quietness . to make this the foundation of our political superstructure , that divisum imperium cum jove caesar habet , god hath immediate and sole power over the minds and inward thoughts of men ; but the magistrate over the exercise of those thoughts in things especially belonging to the worship of god , and in the same instances , seems not to prognosticate a stable or durable building . the prophet was not of that mind of old , who in the name of god blamed the people for willingly walking after the commandment of their ruler , in concerns of worship not warranted by divine appointment ; nor was daniel so , who notwithstanding the severe prohibition made against his praying in his house , continued to do so three times a day . but besides all this ! i do not see how this hypothesis is necessarily subservient to the principal design of the author , but it may be as well improved to quite distant , yea contrary ends and purposes . his design plainly is , to have one fabrick of religion erected , one form of external worship enacted and prescribed , which all men should be compelled by penalties to the outward profession and observance of ; these penalties he would have to be such as should not fail of their end ; namely , of taking away all professed dissent from his religious establishment ; which if it cannot be effected without the destruction and death of multitudes , they also are not to be forborn . now how this ensues from the fore-mentioned principle i know not . for a supream magistrate , finding that the minds of very many of his subjects are in their judgements and perswasions engaged in a dissent unto the religion established by him , or somewhat in it , or some part of it , especially in things of practical worship ; though he should be perswaded that he hath so far a power over their consciences , as to command them to practise contrary to their judgement , yet knowing their minds and perswasions to be out of his reach and exempted from his jurisdiction , why may he not think it meet and conducing to publick tranquillity and all the ends of his government , even the good of the whole community committed to his charge , rather to indulge them in the quiet and peaceable exercise of the worship of god according to their own light , than alwayes to bind them unto that unavoidable disquietment which will ensue upon the conflict in their minds between their judgements and their practices , if he should oblige them as is desired . certainly , as in truth and reality , so according to this principle , he hath power so to do . for to fancy him such a power over the religion and consciences of his subjects , as that he should be inevitably bound on all occurrences and in all conditions of affairs , to impose upon them the necessary observation of one form of worship , is that which would quickly expose him to inextricable troubles . and instances of all sorts might be multiplyed to shew the ridiculous folly of such a conception . nay it implies a perfect contradiction to what is disputed before . for if he be obliged to settle and impose such a form on all , it must be because there was a necessity of somewhat antecedent to his imposition , whence his obligation to impose it did arise . and on such a supposisition it is in vain to enquire after his liberty or his power in these things , seeing by his duty he is absolutely determined , and whatever that be which doth so determine him and put an obligation upon him , it doth indispensably do the same on his subjects also ; which as it is known utterly excludes the authority pleaded for . this principle therefore indeed asserts his liberty to do what he judgeth meet in these matters , but contains nothing in it to oblige him to judge , that it may not be meet and most conducing unto all the ends of his government to indulge unto the consciences of men peaceable , ( especially if complying with him in all the fundamentals of the religion which himself professeth ) the liberty of worshiping god according to what they apprehend of his own mind and will. and let an application of this principle be made to the present state of this nation , wherein there are so great multitudes of persons peaceable and not unuseful unto publick good , who dissent from the present establishment of outward worship , and have it not in their power either to change their judgements or to practise contrary unto them ; and as it is in the power of the supream magistrate to indulge them in their own way , so it will prove to be his interest as he is the spring and center of of publick peace and prosperity . neither doth it appear that in this discourse our author hath had any regard either to the real principles of the power of the magistrate as stated in this nation , or to his own which are fictitious ; but yet such as ought to be obligatory to himself ; his principal assertion is , that the supream magistrate hath power to bind the consciences of men in matters of religion , that is by laws and edicts to that purpose ; now the highest and most obligatory way of the supream magistrates speaking in england , is by acts of parliament ; it is therefore supposed that what is so declared in or about matters of religion , should be obligatory to the conscience of this author ; but yet quite otherwise , p. 59. he sets himself to oppose and condemn a publick law of the land , on no other ground than because it stood in his way , and seemed incompliant with his principles . for whereas the law of 2 and 3 ed. 6. which appointed two weekly dayes for abstinence from flesh , had been amongst other reasons prefaced with this , that the kings subjects having now a more clear light of the gospel through the infinite mercy of god ( such canting language was then therein used ) and thereby the kings majesty perceiving that one meat of it self was not more holy than another , &c. yet considering that due abstinence , was a means to vertue , and to subdue mens bodies to their souls and spirits , &c. and it being after found ( it should seem by a farther degree of light ) that those expressions meeting with the inveterate opinions of some , newly brought out of popery , had given countenance to them to teach or declare , that something of religion was placed therein ; thereon by the law made 5 elizab. adding another weekly day to be kept with the former for the same purpose , the former clause was omitted , and mention only made therein of the civil and politique reasons inducing the legislators thereunto ; and withall a penalty of inflicting punishment on those who should affirm and maintain that there was any concernment of conscience and religion in that matter . this provision hath so distasted our author , that forgetting it seems his own design , he reproaches it with the title of jejunium cecilianum ; and thinks it so far from obliging his conscience to acquiess in the determination therein made , that he will not allow it to give law to his tongue or pen ; but ( vexet censura columbas ) it seems they are the phanaticks only that are thus to be restrained . moreover on occasion hereof we might manifest how some other laws of this land do seem carefully to avoid that imposition on conscience , which against law and reason he pleadeth for ; for instance in that of 21 jacob. touching usury , and the restraint of it unto the summ therein established , it was provided , that no words in this act conteined shall be construed or expounded to allow the practise of vsury in point of religion and conscience . and why did not the supream magistrate in that law determine and bind the consciences of men , by a declaration of their duty in a point of religion ; seeing whether way soever the determination had been made , neither would immorality have been countenunced , nor the deity disgraced ? but plainly it is rather declared , that he hath not cogni●●●ce of such things with reference to the consciences of men to oblige them , or set them at liberty , but only power to determine what may be practised in order to publick profit and peace . and therefore the law would neither bind , nor set at liberty the consciences of men in such cases , which is a work for the supream law-giver only . neither , as it hath been before observed , do the principles here asserted and contended for , either express or represent the supremacy of the kings of this nation in matters ecclesiastical as it is stated and determined by themselves in parliament ; but rather so , as to give great offence and scandal to the religion here professed and advantage to the adversaries thereof ; for after there appeared some ambiguity in those words of the oath enacted 1 eliz. of testifying the queen to be supream governour as well in all spiritual or ecclesiastical things or causes , as in temporal ; and many doubts and scruples ensued thereon , as though there were assigned to her a power over the consciences of her subjects in spiritual things , or that she had a power her self to order and administer spiritual things ; in quinto elizab. it is enacted by way of explanation , that the oaths aforesaid shall be expounded in such form as is set forth in the admonition annexed to the queens injunctions , published in the first year of her reign , where disclaiming the power of the ministry of divine offices in the church , or the power of the priesthood here by our author affixed to the supream magistrate , her power and authority is declared to be a soveraignty over all manner of persons born within this realm , whether they be ecclesiastical or temporal , so that no foraign power hath , or ought to have any superiority over them ; and so is this supremacy stated in the articles anno 1562. namely an autho●ity to rule all estates and degrees committed to the charge of the supream magistrate by god , whether they be ecclesiastical or temporal , and to restrain the stubborn or evil-doers . of the things contended for by our author ; the authority of the priesthood , and power over the consciences of men in matters of religion there is not one word in our laws , but rather they are both of them rejected and condemned . i have yet laid the least part of that load upon this principle , which if it be farther pressed it must expect to be burdened withal , and that from the common suffrage of christians in all ages . but yet that i may not transgress against the design of this short and hasty discourse , i shall proceed no farther in the pursuit of it ; but take a little survey of what is here pleaded in its defence . now this is undertaken and pursued in the first chapter , with the two next ensuing , where an end is put to this plea. for if i understand any thing of his words and expressions , our author in the beginning of his fourth chapter , cuts down all those gourds and wild vines that he had been planting in the three preceding ; for he not only grants but disputes also for an obligation on the consciences of men antecedent and superiour unto all humane laws and their obligation ; his words are as followeth , pag. 115. it is not because subjects are in any thing free from the authority of the supream power on earth , but because they are subject to a superiour in heaven ; and they are only then excused from the duty of obedience to their soveraign when they cannot give it without rebellion against god ; so that it is not originally any right of their own that exempts them from a subjection to the soveraign power in all things ; but it is purely gods right of governing his own creatures that magistrates then invade when they make edicts to violate or controll his laws ; and those who will take off from the consciences of men , all obligations antecedent to those of humane laws , instead of making the power of princes , supream , absolute , and uncontrollable , they utterly enervate all their authority , and set their subjects at perfect liberty from all their commands . i know no men that pretend to exemption from the obligation of humane laws , but only on this plea , that god by his law requires them to do otherwise ; and if this be so , the authority of such laws as to the consciences of men , is superseded by the confession of this author . allow therefore but the principles here expressed , namely , that men have a superiour power over them in heaven , whose laws , and the revelation of whose will concerning them , is the supream rule of their duty , whence an obligation is laid upon their consciences of doing whatever is commanded , or not doing what is forbidden by him , which is superiour unto , and actually supersedes all humane commands and laws that interfere therewith , and i see neither use of , nor place for that power of magistrates over the consciences of men , which is so earnestly contended for . and our author also in his ensuing discourse in that chapter , placeth all the security of government in the respect that the consciences of men have to the will and command of god ; and which they profess to have ; which in all these chapters he pleads to be a principle of all confusion . but it is the first chapter which alone we are now taking a view of . the only argument therein insisted on to to make good the ascription unto the magistrate of the power over religion and the consciences of men before described , is the absolute and indispensable necessity of it , unto publick tranquility , which is the principal , and most important end of government . in the pursuit of this argument , sometimes yea often , such expressions are used concerning the magistrates power , as in a tolerable construction declare it to be what no man denyes nor will contend about . but it is necessary that they be interpreted according to the genius and tenor of the opinion contended for , and accordingly we will consider them . this alone i say is that which is here pleaded , or is given in as the subject of the ensuing discourse . but after all , i think that he who shall set himself seriously to find out how any thing here spoken , hath a direct and rational cogency towards the establishment of the conclusion before laid down , will find himself engaged in no easie an undertakeing . we were told i confess at the entrance ( so as that we may not complain of a surprizal ) that we must expect to have invectives twisted with arguments , and some such thing seems here to be aimed at ; but if a logical chymist come , and make a separation of the elements , of this composition , he will find , if i mistake not , an heap of the drossy invective , and scarce the least appearance of any argument ore. instead of sober rational arguing , — crimina rasis librat in antithetis ; — great aggravations of mens miscarriages in the pursuit of the dictates of their consciences , either real or feigned , edged against , and fiercely reflected upon those whom he makes his adversaries , and these the same for substance , repeated over and over in a great variety of well placed words , take up the greatest part of his plea in this chapter ; especially the beginning of it , wherein alone the controversie as by himself stated is concerned . but if the power and authority over religion and the consciences of men here ascribed unto supream magistrates , be so indispensably necessary to the preservation of publick tranquility , as is pretended , a man cannot but wonder how the world hath been in any age past , kept in any tolerable peace and quietness ; and how it is any where blessed with those ends of government at this day . for it will not be an easie task for our author , or any one else to demonstrate that the power mentioned , hath ever been either claimed or exercised by any supream magistrate in christendom , or that it is so at this day . the experience of past and present ages , is therefore abundantly sufficient to defeat this pretence , which is sufficiently asserted , without the least appearance of proof or argument to give it countenance or confirmation ; or they must be very charitable to him , or ignorant in themselves , who will mistake invectives for arguments . the remembrance indeed of these severities i would willingly lay aside ; especially because the very mention of them seems to express an higher sense of and regret concerning them , then i am in the least subject unto , or something that looks like a design of retaliation ; but as these things are far from my mind , so the continual returns that almost in every page i meet with , of high and contemptuous reproaches , will not allow that they be alwayes passed by without any notice or remark . it is indeed indispensably necessary that publick peace and tranquility be preserved ; but that there is any thing in point of government necessary hereunto , but that god have all spiritual power over the consciences of men , and rulers political power over their actings wherein publick peace and tranquility are concerned , the world hath not hitherto esteemed , nor do i expect to find it proved by this author . if these things will not preserve the publick peace , it will not be kept if one should rise from the dead to perswade men unto their duty . the power of god over the consciences of men , i suppose is acknowledged by all who own any such thing as conscience or believe there is a god over all . that also in the exercise of this authority , he requires of men all that obedience unto rulers that is any way needfull or expedient unto the preservation of the ends of their rule , is a truth standing firm on the same foundation of universal consent , derived from the law of creation ; and his positive commands to that purpose , have an evidence of his will in this matter not liable to exception or controll . this conscience unto god our author confesseth ( as we have observed , in his fourth chapter , to be the great preservation and security of goverment and governours , with respect unto the ends mentioned . and if so , what becomes of all the pretences of disorder and confusion that will ensue , unless this power over mens consciences be given to the magistrate and taken as it were out of the hands of god ? nor is it to be supposed that men will be more true to their consciences supposing the reiglement of them in the hand of men , than when they are granted to be in the hand and power of god ; for both at present are supposed to require the same things . certainly where conscience respects authority , as it always doth , the more absolute and soveraign it apprehends the authority by which it is obliged , the greater and more firm will be the impressions of the obligation upon it . and in that capacity of preheminence , it must look upon the authority of god compared with the authority of man. here then lyes the security of publick peace and tranquility , as it is backed by the authority of the magistrate , to see that all outward actions are suitable unto what conscience toward god doth in this matter openly and unquestionably require . the pretence indeed is that the placing of this authority over the consciences of men in the supream ruler , doth obviate and take away all grounds and occasions of any such actings on the account of religion , as may tend unto publick disturbance . for suppose conscience in things concerning religion and the worship of god subject to god alone , and the magistrate require such things to be observed in the one or the other as god hath not required , at least in the judgements and consciences of them of whom the things prescribed are required , and to forbid the things that god requires to be observed and done ; in this case it is said they cannot or will not comply in active obedience with the commands of the magistrate . but what if it so fall out ? doth it thence follow that such persons must needs rebell and be seditious and disturb the publick peace , of the society whereof they are members ? wherefore is it that they do not do or observe what is required of them by the magistrate in religion or the worship of god , or that they do what he forbids ? is it not because of the authority of god over their minds and consciences in these things ? and why should it be supposed that men will answer the obligations laid by god on their consciences in one thing , and not in another ; in the things of his worship and not of obedience unto civil power , concerning which his commands are as express and evident , as they can be pretended to be in the things which they avow their obligation unto . experience is pretended to the contrary . it is said again and again , that men under pretence of their consciences unto god in religion , have raised wars and tumults , and brought all things into confusion , in this kingdom and nation especially ; and what will words avail against the evidence of so open an experience to the contrary ? but what if this also should prove a false and futilous pretence ? fierce and long wars have been in this nation of old , upon the various titles of persons pleading their right unto supream government in the kingdom , against one another ; so also have there been about the civil rights and the priviledges of the subjects , in the confusions commonly called the barons wars . the late troubles , disorders , and wars amongst us must bear the weight of this whole charge . but if any one will take the pains to review the publick writings , declarations , treaties whereby those tumults and wars were begun and carried on , he will easily discern that liberty of conscience in practice , or the exemption of it from the power of the magistrate as to the rule and conduct of it now ascribed unto him , in the latitude by sober persons defended or pleaded for , had neither place in , nor influence into the beginnings of those troubles . and when such confusions are begun , no man can give assurance or conjecture where they shall end . authority , laws , priviledges , and i know not what things wherein private men of whom alone we treat ▪ have no pretence of interest , were pleaded in those affairs . he that would judge aright of these things , must set aside all other considerations , and give his instance of the tumults and seditions that have ensued on the account of menskeeping their consciences entire for god alone , without any just plea , or false pretence of authority , and the interest of men in the civil concerns of nations . however it cannot be pretended that liberty of conscience gave the least occasion unto any disorders in those dayes . for indeed there was none , but only that of opinion and judgement , which our author placeth out of the magistrates cognizance and dispose ; and supposeth it is as a thing wherein the publick peace neither is nor can be concerned . it is well if it prove so ; but this liberty of judgement constantly prest with a practice contrary to its own determinations , will i fear prove the most dangerous posture of the minds of men in reference to publick tranquillity , that they can be well disposed into . however we may take a little nearer view of the certain remedy provided for all these evils by our author , and satisfie our selves in some enquiries about it . shall then according to this expedient the supream magistrate govern , rule , and oblige unto obedience the consciences of his subjects universally in all things in religion and the worship of god , so that appoint what he please , forbid what he please , subjects are bound in concience to observe them and yield obedience accordingly ? his answer as far as i can gather his meaning is , that he may and must do so in all things , taking care that what he commands shall neither countenance vice , nor disgrace the deity , and then the subjects are obliged according to the enquiry . but yet there seems another limitation to be given to this power p. 37. where he affirms , that the lord christ hath given severe injunctions to secure the obedience of men to all lawful superiours , except where they run directly cross to the interest of the gospel ; and elsewhere he seems to give the same priviledge of exemption , where a religion is introduced that is idolatrous or superstitious . i would then a little farther enquire , who shall judge whether the things commanded in religion and the worship of god be idolatrous or superstitious ? whether they cross directly the interest of the gospel ? whether they countenance vice , and disgrace the deity , or no. to say that the magistrate is to judge and determine hereof , is the highest foppery imaginable . for no magistrate , unless he be distracted , will enjoyn such a religion to observance , as he judgeth himself to fall under the qualifications mentioned ; and when he hath done declare that so they do , and yet require obedience unto them . besides , if this judgement be solely committed unto him , indeed in the issue there neither is , nor can be any question for a judgement to be passed upon in this matter . for his injunction doth quite render useless all disquisitions to that purpose . the judgement and determination hereof therefore is necessary to be left unto the subjects , from whom obedience is required . so it lyes in the letter of the proposal , they must obey in all things but such ; and therefore surely must judge what is such and what is not . now who shall fix bounds to what they will judge to fall under one or other of these limitations ? if they determine according to the best light they have that the religious observances enjoyned by the magistrate do directly cross the interest of the gospel , they are absolved by our author from any obligation in conscience to their observation . and so we are just as before ; and this great engine for publick tranquility vanisheth into air and smoak . thus this author himself in way of objection supposeth a case of a magistrate enjoyning , as was said , a religion superstitious and idolatrous ; this he acknowledgeeth to be an inconvenience ; yet such as is far beneath the mischiefs the ensue upon the exemption of the consciences of men in religion from the power of the the magistrate , which i confess i cannot but admire at , and can give reasons why i do so admire it ; which also may be given in due season . but what then is to be done in this case ? he answers , it is to be born : true , but how ? is it to be so born as to practise and observe the things so enjoyned though superstitious and idolatrous ? though his words are dubious , yet i suppose he will not plainly say so ; not can he unless he will teach men to cast off all respect unto the authority of god , and open such a door to atheism , as his rhetorical prefatory invective will not be able to shut . the bearing then intended must be by patient suffering in a refusal to practise what is so commanded , and observing the contrary commands of god. but why in this case ought they to suffer quietly for refusing a compliance with what is commanded , and for their observance of the contrary precepts of the gospel ? why , they must do so because of the command of god , obliging their consciences unto obedience to the magistrate in all things wherein the publick peace is concerned , and so that is absolutely secured . is it not evident to him that hath but half an eye that we are come about again where we were before ? let this be applyed to all the concernments of religion and religious worship , and there will arise with respect unto them , the same security which in this case is deemed sufficient , and all that humane affairs are capable of . for if in greater matters men may refuse to act according to the magistrates command , out of a sense of the authority of god obliging them to the contrary , and yet their civil peaceableness and obedience be absolutely secured from the respect of their consciences to the command of god requiring it ; why should it not be admitted that they may and will have the same respect to that command , when they dissent from the magistrates constitution in lesser things , on the same account of the authority of god requiring the contrary of them ? shall we suppose that they will cast off the authority of god requiring their obedience , on the account of their dissatisfaction in lesser things of the magistrates appointment , when they will not do so for all the violences that may be offered unto them in things of greater and higher importance ? the principle therefore asserted is as useless as it is false , and partakes sufficiently of both those properties to render it inconsiderable and contemptible . and he that can reconcile these things among themselves , or make them useful to the authors design , will atchieve what i dare not aspire unto . i know not any thing that remains in this first chapter deserving our farther consideration ; what seems to be of real importance , or to have any aspect towards the cause in hand , may undergoe some brief remarques , and so leave us at liberty to a farther progress . in general a supposition is laid down , and it is so vehemently asserted as is evident that it is accompanied with a desire that it should be taken for granted ; namely , that if the consciences of men be not regulated in the choice and practice of religion by the authority of the magistrate over them , they will undoubtedly run into principles and practices inconsistent with the safety of humane society , and such as will lead them to seditions and tumults ; and hence , ( if i understand him , a matter i am continually jealous about from the loosness of his expressions , though i am satisfied i constantly take his words in the words in the sense which is received of them by most intelligent persons ) he educeth all his reasonings , and not from a meer dissent from the magistrates injuctions , without the entertainment of such principles , or an engagement into such practices . i cannot i say , find the arguments that arise from a meer supposition that men in some things relating to the worship of god , will or do practise otherwise than the magistrate commands , which are used to prove the inconsistency of such a posture of things with publick tranquility , which yet alone was the province our author ought to have managed . but there is another supposition added , that where conscience is in any thing left unto its own liberty to choose or refuse in the worship of god , there it will embrace , sure enough , such wicked debauched and seditious principles , as shall dispose men unto commotions , rebellions , and all such evils as will actually evert all rule , order and policy amongst men . but now this supposition will not be granted him , in reference unto them who profess to take up all their profession of religion from the command of god , or the revelation of his will in the scripture , wherein all such principles and practices as those mentioned are utterly condemned ; and the whole profession of christianity being left for 300 years without the rule , guidance , and conduct of conscience now contended for , did not once give the least disturbance unto the civil governments of the world. disturbances indeed there were , and dreadful revolutions of government in those dayes and places , when and where the professors of it lived ; but no concerns of religion being then involved in or with the civil rights and interests of men , as the professors of it had no engagements in them , so from those alterations and troubles no reflection could be made on their profession . and the like peace , the like innocency of religion , the like freedom from all possibility of such imputations as are now cast upon it , occasioned meerly by its intertexture with the affairs , rights , and laws of the nations , and the interests of its professours as such therein , will ensue , when it shall be separated from that relation wherein it stands to this world , and left as the pure naked tendency of the souls of men to another , and not before . but what , sayes our author , if for the present the minds of men happen to be tainted with such furious and boysterous conceptions of religion as incline them to stubbornness and sedition , and make them unmanageable to the laws of government , shall not a prince be allowed to give check to such unruly and dangerous perswasions ? i answer ; that such principles which being professed and avowed , are in their own nature and just consequence destructive to publick peace and humane society , are all of them directly opposite to the light of humane nature , that common reason and consent of mankind wherein and whereon all government is founded , with the prime fundamental laws and dictates of the scripture , and so may and ought to be restrained in the practises of the persons that profess them ; and with reference unto them the magistrate beareth not the sword in vain — for humane society being inseparably consequent unto , and and an effect of the law of our nature , or concreated principles of it , which hath subdued the whole race of mankind in all times and places unto its observance , opinions , perswasions , principles , opposite unto it or destructive of it , manifesting themselves by any sufficient evidence , or in overt acts , ought to be no more allowed than such as profess an enmity to the being and providence of god himself . for mens inclinations indeed , as in themselves considered , there is no competent judge of them amongst the sons of men ; but as to all outward actions that are of the tendency described , they are under publick inspection to be dealt withall according to their demerit . i shall only add that the mormo here made use of , is not now first composed or erected ; it hath for the substance of it been flourished by the papists ever since the beginning of the reformation . neither did they use to please themselves more in , or to dance more merrily about any thing than this calf ; let private men have their consciences exempted from a necessary obedience to the prescriptions of the church , and they will quickly run into all pernicious fancies and perswasions . it is known how this scare-crow hath been cast to the ground , and this calf stamped to powder by divines of the church of england . it is no pleasant thing i confess to see this plea revived now with respect to the magistrates authority , and not the popes ; for i fear that when it shall be manifested , and that by the consent of all parties , that there is no pleadable argument to botom this pretension for the power of the magistrate upon , some rather then forego it , will not be unwilling to recur to the fountain from whence it first sprang , and admit the popes plea as meet to be revived in this case . and indeed if we must come at length for the security of publick peace , to deprive all private persons of the liberty of judging what is right and wrong in religion in reference to their own practice , or what is their duty towards god about his worship and what is not , there are innumerable advantages attending the design of devolving the absolute determination of these things upon the pope , above that of committing it to each supream magistrate in his own dominions . for besides the plea of at least better security in his determinations than in that of any magistrates , if not his infallibility which he hath so long talked of , and so sturdily defended as to get it a great reputation in the world , the delivering up of the faith and consciences of all men unto him , will produce a seeming agreement , at least of incomparably a larger extent , then the remitting of all things of this nature to the pleasure of every supream magistrate , which may probably establish as many different religions in the world , as there are different nations kingdoms or commonwealths . that which alone remains seeming to give countenance to the assertions before laid down , is our authors assignation of the priesthood by natural right unto the supream magistrate , which in no alteration of religion he can be devested of , but by vertue of some positive law of god , as it was for a season in the mosaical institution and government . but these things seem to be of no force . for it never belonged to the priesthood , to govern or to rule the consciences of men with an absolute uncontrollable power ; but only in their name , and for them , to administer the holy things , which by common consent were admitted , and received amongst them . besides , our author by his discourse seems not to be much acquainted with the rise of the office of the priesthood amongst men , as shall be demonstrated , if farther occasion be given thereunto . however by the way we may observe what is his judgement in this matter . the magistrate we are told hath not his ecclesiastical authority from christ ; and yet this is such as that the power of the priesthood is included therein ; the exercise whereof as he is pleased to transfer to others , so he may , if he please , reserve it to himself , p. 32. whence it follows , not only that it cannot be given by christ unto any other , for it is part of the magistrates power ▪ which he hath not limited , nor confined by any subsequent law , nor can there be 〈◊〉 coordinate subject of the same power of several kinds ; so that all the interest or right any man , or men , have in or unto the exercise of it , is but transfer'd to them by the magistrate ; and therefore they act therein , in his name , and by his authority only ; and hence the bishops , as such , are said to be ministers of state , p. 49. neither can it be pretended that this was indeed in the power of the magistrate before the coming of christ , but not since . for he hath as we are told , all that he ever had , unless there be a restraint put upon him by some express prohibition of our saviour , p. 41. which will hardly be found in this matter . i cannot therefore see how in the exercise of the christian priesthood there is ( on these principles ) any the least respect unto jesus christ , or his authority ; for men have only the exercise of it transferred to them by the magistrate , by vertue of a power inherent in him antecedent unto any concessions of christ ; and therefore in his name and authority they must act in all the sacred offices of their functions . it is well if men be so far awake as to consider the tendency of these things . at length scripture proofs for the confirmation of these opinions are produced , p. 35 , 36. and the first pleaded , is that promise , that kings shall be nursings fathers unto the church . it is true this is promised , and god accomplish it more and more ; but yet we do not desire such nurses , as beget the children they nurse ; the proposing , prescribing , commanding , binding religion on the consciences of men , is rather the begetting of it than its nursing . to take care of the church and religion , that it receive no detriment , by all the wayes and means appointed by god , and useful thereunto , is the duty of magistrates ; but it is so also antecedently to their actings unto this purpose , to discern aright which is the church whereunto this promise is made , without which they cannot duly discharge their trust , nor fulfill the promise it self ; the very words , by the rules of the metaphor , do imply , that the church , and its religion , and the worship of god observed therein , is constituted , fixed , and regulated by god himself , antecedently unto the magistrates duty and power about it . they are to nurse that which is committed to them , and not what themselves have framed , or begotten . and we contend for no more but a rule concerning religion , and the worship of god antecedent unto the magistrates interposing about it , whereby both his actings in his place , and those of subjects in theirs , are to be regulated mistakes herein have engaged many soveraign princes in pursuit of their trust as nursing fathers to the church , to lay out their strength and power for the utter ruine of it ; as may be evidenced in instances too many of those , who in a subserviency to , and by the direction of the papal interest , have endeavoured to extirpate true religion out of the world. such a nursing mother we had sometimes in england , who in pursuit of her care burned so many bishops and other holy men to ashes . he asks farther , what doth the scripture mean when it stiles our saviour the king of kings , and maketh princes his vicegerents here on earth ? i confess , according to this gentleman's principles , i know not what it means in so doing : kings , he tells us , have not their authority in and over religion , and the consciences of men from him , and therefore in the exercise of it cannot be his vicegerents ; for none is the vicegerent of another in the exercise of any power or authority , if he have not received that power and authority from him . otherwise the words have a proper sense , but nothing to our authors purpose . it is his power over them , and not theirs over the consciences of their subjects , that is intended in the words . of no more use in this controversie is the direction of the apostle , that we should pray for kings , that under them we may lead a quiet and peaceable life ; for no more is intended therein , but that , under their peaceable and righteous administration of humane affairs , we may live in that godliness , and honesty , which is required of us . wherefore then are these weak attempts made to confirm and prove what is not ? those , or the most of them , whom our author in this discourse treats with so much severity , do plead that it is the duty of all supream magistrates to find out , receive , imbrace , promote the truths of the gospel , with the worship of god appointed therein , confirming , protecting , and desending them , and those that embrace them , by their power and authority . and in the discharge of this duty , they are to use the liberty of their own judgements , enformed by the wayes that god hath appointed , independently on the dictates and determinations of any other persons whatever ; they affirm also , that to this end they are entrusted with supream power over all persons in their respective dominions , who on no pretence can be exempted from the exercise of that power , as occasion in their judgements shall require it to be exercised ; as also that all causes , wherein the profession of religion in their dominions is concerned , which are determinable in foro civili by coercive vmpirage or authority , are subject unto their cognizance and power . the soveraign power over the consciences of men to institute , appoint , and prescribe religion , and the worship of god , they affirm to belong unto him alone , who is the author and finisher of our faith , who is the head over all things to the church . the administration of things meerly spiritual in the worship of god is , they judge , derived immediately from him to the ministers , and administrators of the gospel , possessed of their offices by his command , and according to his institution ; as to the external practice of religion , and religious worship as such , it is , they say , in the power of the magistrate to regulate all the outward civil concernments of it , with reference unto the preservation of publick peace , and tranquillity , and the prosperity of his subjects ; and herein also they judge that such respect is to be had to the consciences of men , as the scripture , the nature of the thing it self , and the right of the l. christ to introduce his spiritual kingdom into all nations , do require . that which seems to have imposed on the mind of this author is , that if the magistrate may make laws for the regulating of the outward profession of religion , so as publick peace and tranquillity may be kept , added to what is his duty to do in the behalf of the truth ; then he must have the power over religion , and the consciences of men by him ascribed unto him ; but there is no privity of interest between these things ; the laws , which he makes to this purpose , are to be regulated by the word of god , and the good of the community , over which in the name of god he doth preside ; and whence he will take his warranty to forbid men the exercise of their consciences in the duties of spiritual worship , whilest the principles they profess , are suited to the light of nature , and the fundamental doctrines of the gospel , with the peace of mankind , and their practices absolutely confistent with publick welfare , i am yet to seek ; and so , as far as i can yet perceive , is the author of the discourse under consideration . it will not arise from a parity of reason from the power that he hath to restrain cursed swearing , and blasphemies by penal coercions . for these things are no less against the light of nature , and no less condemned by the common suffrage of mankind ( and the persons that contract the guilt of them may be no less effectually brought to judge and condemn themselves ) than are the greatest outrages that may be committed in and against humane society ; that the gospel will give no countenance hereunto , he seems to acknowledge , in his assignation of several reasons why the use of the power , and exercise of it in the way of compulsion by penalties , pleaded for by him , is not mentioned therein ; that christ and his apostles behaved themselves as subjects ; that he neither took nor exercised any soveraign power ; that he gave his laws to private men as such , and not to the magistrate , that the power that then was , was in bad hands , are pleaded as excuses for the silence of the gospel in this matter . but lest this should prove father prejudicial to his present occasion , he adds p. 42. the only reason why the lord christ bound not the precepts of the gospel upon mens consciences by any secular compulsories , was not because compulsion was an improper way to put his laws in execution ; for then he had never established them with more enforcing sanctions , but only because himself was not vested with any secular power , and so could not use those methods of government which are proper to its jurisdiction ; this in plain english is , that if christ had had power , he would have ordered the gospel to have been propagated as mahomet hath done his alcoran ; an assertion untrue and impious , contrary to the whole spirit and genius of the gospel , and of the author of it , aud the commands and precepts of it . and it is fondly supposed that the lord christ suited all the management of the affairs of the gospel , unto that state and condition in this world , wherein he emptied himself , and took upon him the form of a servant , making himself of no reputation , that he might be obedient unto death , the death of the cross ; he layes the foundation of the promulgation and propagation of it in the world , in the grant of all power unto him in heaven and earth . all power , saith he to his apostles , is given unto me in heaven and earth , go ye therefore , and baptize all nations , teaching them to observe all things whatever i have commanded you , matth. 28. 19 , 20. he is confidered in the dispensation of the gospel , as he who is head over all things to the church , the lord of lords , and king of kings , whom our author acknowledgeth to be his vicegerents ; on this account the gospel with all the worship instituted therein , and required thereby , is accompanied with a right to enter into any of the kingdoms of the earth , and spiritually to make the inhabitants of them subject to jesus christ ; and so to translate them out of the power of darkness into the kingdom of the son of god ; and this right is antecedent and paramount to the right of all earthly kings and princes whatever , who have no power or authority to exclude the gospel out of their dominions ; and what they exercise of that kind , is done at their peril . the penalties that he hath annexed to the final rejection of the gospel , and disobedience thereunto , are pleaded by our author , to justifie the magistrates power of binding men to the observation of his commands in religion on temporal penalties to be by him inflicted on them ; unto that is the discourse of this chapter arrived which was designed unto another end . i see neither the order , method , nor projection of this procedure ; nor know , amphora cum cepit institui , cur vrceus exit ; however the pretense it self is weak , and impertinent . man was originally made under a law and constitution of eternal bliss , or woe ; this state , with regard to his necessary dependance on god , and respect to his utmost end , was absolutely unavoidable unto him . all possibility of attaining eternal happiness by himself he lost by sirr , and became inevitably obnoxious to eternal misery , and the wrath to come . in this condition the lord jesus christ , the supream lord of the souls and consciences of men , interposeth his law of relief , redemption , and salvation , the great means of man's recovery , together with the profession of the way , and law hereof . he lets them know , that those by whom it is refused , shall perish under that wrath of god , which before they were obnoxious unto , with a new aggravation of their sin and condemnation , from the contempt of the relief provided for them , and tendered to them . this he applyes to the souls and consciences of men , and to all the inward secret actings of them , in the first place , such as are exempted not only from the judicature of men , but from the cognizance of angels . this he doth by spiritual means in a spiritual manner , with regard to the subjection of the souls of men unto god , and with reference unto their bringing to him , and enjoyment of him , or their being eternally rejected by him. hence to collect , and conclude that earthly princes , who , ( whatever is pretended ) are not the soveraign lords of the souls and consciences of men , nor do any of them , that i know of , plead themselves so to be ; who cannot interpose any thing by their absolute authority , that should have a necessary respect unto mens eternal condition ; who have no knowledge of , no acquaintance with , nor can judge of the principal things whereon it doth depend , from whose temporal jurisdiction , and punishment the things of the gospel , and the worship of god as purely such , are ( by the nature of them , being spiritual and not of this world , though exercised in it , having their respect only unto eternity , and by their being taken into the sole disposal of the soveraign lord of consciences , who hath accompanied his commands concerning them with his own promises , and threatnings , ) plainly exempted ; should have power over the consciences of men , so to lay their commands upon them in these spiritual things , as to back them with temporal , corporal restraints and punishments , is a way of arguing that will not be confined unto any of those rules of reasoning , which hitherto we have been instructed in . when the magistrate hath an arm like god , and can thunder with a voice like him , when he judgeth not after the sight of his eyes , nor reproveth after the hearing of his ears , when he can smile the earth with the rod of his mouth , and slay the wicked with the breath of his lipps , when he is constituted a judge of the faith , repentance , and obedience of men , and of their efficacy in their tendency unto the pleasing of god here , and the enjoyment of him hereafter , when spiritual things in order to their eternal issues and effects are made subject unto him ; in brief , when he is christ , let him act as christ , or rather most unlike him , and guide the consciences of men by rods , axes , and halters ( whereunto alone his power can reach ) who in the mean time have an express command from the lord christ himself , not to have their consciences influenced in the least by the consideration of these things . of the like complexion is the ensuing discourse , wherein our author , p. 43. having spoken contemptuously of the spiritual institutions of the gospel , as altogether insufficient for the accomplishment of the ends , whereunto they are designed , forgeting that they respect only the consciences of men , and are his institutions who is the lord of their consciences , and who will give them power , and efficacy to attain their ends , when administred in his name , and according to his mind , and that because they are his ; would prove the necessity of temporal coercions , and penalties in things spiritual , from the extraordinary effects of excommunication in the primitive times , in the vexation and punishment of persons excommunicate by the devil . this work the devil now ceasing to attend unto , he would have the magistrate to take upon him to supply his place , and office , by punishments of his own appointment , and infliction ; and so at last , to be sure of giving him full measure , he hath ascribed two extreams unto him about religion , namely , to act the part of god , and the devil . but as this inference is built upon a very uncertain conjecture , namely , that upon the giving up of persons to satan in excommunication , there did any visible , or corporal vexation of them by his power ensue , or any other effects but what may yet be justly expected from an influence of his terrour on the minds of men , who are duly and regularly cast out of the visible kingdom of christ by that censure ; and whereas , if there be any truth in it , it was confined unto the dayes of the apostles , and is to be reckoned amongst the miraculous operations granted to them for the first confirmation of the gospel ; and the continuance of it , all the time the church wanted the assistance of the civil magistrate , is most unduly pretended without any colour of proof , or instance , beyond such as may be evidenced to continue at this day ; supposing it to be true , the inference made from it , as to its consequence on this concession , is exceeding weak , and feeble . for the argument here amounteth to no more but this ; god was pleased , in the dayes of the apostles , to confirm their spiritual censures against stuborn sinners , apostates , blasphemers , and such like hainous offenders , with extraordinary spiritual punishments , ( so in their own nature , or in the manner , or way of their infliction ) therefore the civil magistrate hath power to appoint things to be observed in the worship of god , and forbid other things , which the light and consciences of men , directed by the word of god , require the observation of , upon ordinary , standing , corporal penalties to be inflicted on the outward man ; quod erat demonstrandum . to wind up this debate ; i shall commit the vmpirage of it to the church of england , and receive her determination in the words of one who may be supposed to know her sense and judgement , as well as any one who lived in his dayes , or since . and this is doctor bilson bishop of winchester , a learned man , skilled in the laws of the land , and a great adversary unto all that dissented from church constitutions . this man therefore treating , by way of dialogue , in answer to the jesuites apologie and defence , in the third part p. 293. thus introduceth theophilus a protestant divine , arguing with philander a jesuite about these matters . theoph. as for the supream head of the church ; it is certain that title was first transferred from the pope to king henry the eighth , by the bishops of your side , not of ours . and though the pastors in king edwards time might not well dislike , much less disswade the style of the crown , by reason the king was under years , and so remained until he dyed ; yet as soon as it pleased god to place her majesty in her fathers throne , the nobles and preachers perceiving the words , head of the church , ( which is christs proper and peculiar honor ) to be offensive unto many that had vehemently refelled the same in the pope , besought her highness the meaning of that word which her father had used , might be expressed in some plainer and apter terms ; and so was the prince called supream governour of the realm ; that is ruler and bearer of the sword , with lawful authority to command and punish , answerable to the word of god , in all spiritual or ecclesiastical things or causes , as well as in temporal . and no forreign prince or prelate , to have any jurisdiction , superiority , preheminence or authority to establish , prohibit , correct , and chastise with publick laws , or temporal fains , any crimes or causes ecclesiastical or spiritual within her realm . philand . calvin saith this is sacriledge and blasphemy . look you therefore with what consciences you take that oath , which your own master so mightily detesteth . theoph. nay look you with what faces you alledge calvin , who maketh that style to be sacrilegious and blassphemous , as well in the pope as in the prince ; reason therefore you receive or refuse his judgement in both . if it derogate from christ in the prince , so it doth in the pope . yet we grant the sense of the word supream , as calvin perceived it by stephen gardiners answer and behaviour , is very blasphemous and injurious to christ and his word , whether it be prince or pope that so shall use it . what this sense is , he declares in the words of calvin , which are as followeth in his translation of them . that jugler , which after was chancelor , i mean the bishop of winchester , when he was at rentzburge , neither would stand to reason the matter , nor greatly cared for any testimonies of the scripture , but said it was at the kings discretion to abrogate that which was in use , and appoint new . he said the king might forbid priests marriage , the king might bar the people from the cup in the lords supper ; the king might determine this or that in his kingdom : and why , forsooth the king had supream power . this sacriledge hath taken hold on us , whilst princes think they cannot reign , except they abolish all the authority of the church , and be themselves supream judges as well in doctrine as in all spiritual regiment . to which he subjoyns ; this was the sense which calvin affirmed to be sacrilegious and blasphemous ; for princes to profess themselves to be supream judges of doctrine and discipline ; and indeed it is the blasphemy which all godly hearts reject and abomine , in the bishop of rome . neither did king henry take any such thing on him for ought that we can learn ; but this was gardiners stratagem , to convey the reproach and shame of the six articles from himself and his fellows that were the authors of them , and to cast it on the kings supream power . had calvin been told , that supream was first received to declare the prince to be superiour to the prelates , ( which exempted themselves from the kings authority by their church liberties and immunities ) as well as to the lay men of this realm , and not to be subject to the pope , the word would never have offended him . thus far he ; and if these controversies be any farther disputed , it is probable the next defence of what is here pleaded , will be in the express words of the principal prelates of this realm since the reformation , until their authority be peremptorily rejected . upon my first design to take a brief survey of this discourse , i had not the least intention to undertake the examination of any particular assertions , or reasonings , that might fall under controversie ; but meerly to examine the general principles whereon it doth proceed . but passing through these things currente calamo , i find my self engaged beyond my thoughts and resolutions ; i shall therefore here put an end to the consideration of this chapter , although i see sundry things as yet remaining in it , that might immediately be discussed with case , and advantage , as shall be manifest , if we are called again to a review of them . i have neither desire , nor design serram reciprocare , or to engage in any controversial discourses with this author . and i presume himself will not take it amiss , that i do at present examine those principles , whose novelty justifies a disquisition into them ; and whose tendency , as applyed by him , is pernicious , and destructive to so many quiet and peaceable persons , who dissent from him . and yet i will not deny , but that i have that valuation and esteem for that sparkling of wit , eloquence , and sundry other abilities of mind , which appear in his writing , that if he would lay aside the manner of his treating those from whom he dissents , with revilings , contemptuous reproaches , personal reflections , sarcasms , and satyrical expressions , and would candidly , and perspicuously state any matter in difference ; i should think that what he hath to offer , may deserve the consideration of them who have leisure for such a purpose . if he be otherwise minded , and resolve to proceed in the way , and after the manner here engaged in , as i shall in the close of this discourse absolutely give him my salve aeternumque vale , so i hope he will never meet with any one who shall be willing to deal with him at his own weapons . a survey of the second chapter . the summary of this chapter must needs give the reader a great expectation , and the chapter it self no less of satisfaction , if what is in the one briefly proposed , be in the other as firmly established . for amongst other things a scheme of religion is promised , reducing all its branches either to moral vertues , or instruments of morality ; which being spoken of christian religion , is , as far as i know , an undertaking new and peculiar unto this author , in whose mannagement all that read him must needs weigh and consider , how dextrously he hath acquitted himself . for as all men grant that morality hath a great place in religion , so that all religion is nothing but morality , many are now to learn. the villany of those mens religion that are wont to distinguish between grace and vertue ( that is moral vertue ) is nextly traduced and inveighed against . i had rather i confess that he had affixed the term of villany to the men themselves whom he intended to reflect on than to their religion ; because as yet it seems to me that it will fall on christianity , and no other real or pretended religion that is , or ever was in the world . for if the prosessors of it , have in all ages according to its avowed principles , never before contradicted , made a distinction between moral vertues ( since these terms were known in the church ) and evangelical graces , if they do so at this day , what religion else can be here branded with this infamous and horrible reproach , i know not . a farther enquiry into the chapter it self may possibly give us farther satisfaction ; wherein we shall deal as impartially as we are able , with a diligent watchfulness against all prejudicate affections , that we may discover what there is of sense and truth in the discourse , being ready to receive what ever shall be manifested to have an interest in them . the civil magistrate , we are also here informed , amongst many other things that he may do , may command any thing in the worship of god that doth not tend to debauch mens practices , or to disgrace the deity . and that all subordinate duties both of morality and religious worship ( such as elsewhere we are told the sacraments are ) are equally subject to the determination of humane authority . these things and sundry others represented in this summary , being new , yea some of them , as far as i know , unheard of amongst christians untill within a few years last past , any reader may justifie himself in the expectation of full and demonstrative arguments to be produced in their proof and confirmation . what the issue will be , some discovery may be made by the ensuing enquiry , as was said , into the body of the chapter it self . the design of this chapter in general is , to confirm the power of the magistrate over religion , and the consciences of men ascribed unto him in the former , and to add unto it some enlargements not therein insisted on . the argument used to this purpose , is taken from the power of the magistrate over the consciences of men in matters of morality , or with respect unto moral vertue ; whence it is supposed the conclusion is so evident unto his power over their consciences in matters of religious worship , that it strikes our author with wonder and amazement that it should not be received an acknowledged . wherefore to further the conviction of all men in this matter , h● proceeds to discourse of moral vertue , o● grace , and of religious worship , with hi● wonted reflections upon , and reproache of non-conformists , for their ignorance about and villanous misrepresentation of these things , which seem more to be aimed at● than the argument it self . i must here with again that our author had more perspicuously stated the things which he proposeth to debate for the subject of his disputation . but i find an excess of art is as troublesome sometimes as the greatest defect therein . from thence i presume it is , that things are so handled in this discourse , that an ordinary man can seldom discern satisfactorily , what it is that directly and determinately he doth intend , beyond reviling of non-conformists . for in this proposition , which is the best and most intelligible that i can reduce the present discourse unto , the supream civil magistrate hath power over the consciences of men in morality , or with respect unto moral vertue ; excepting only the subject of it , there is not one term in it that may not have various significations ; and those such as have countenance given unto them in the ensuing disputation it self . but , contenti sumus hoc catone , and make the best we can of what lyes before us . i do suppose that in the medium made use of in this argument there is , or i am sure there may be , a controversie of much more importance than that principally under consideration . it therefore shall be stated and cleared in the first place , and then the concernment of the argument it self in what is discoursed thereupon , shall be manifested . it is about moral vertue and grace , their coincidence , or distinction , that we are in the first place to enquire . for without a due stating of the conception of these things , nothing of this argument , nor what belongs unto it , can be rightly understood . we shall therefore be necessitated to premise a brief explanation of these terms themselves , to remove as far as may be all ambiguity from our discourse . first then , the very name of vertue , in the sense wherein it is commonly used and received , comes from the schools of philosophy , and not from the scripture . in the old testament we have vprightness , integrity , righteousness , doing good and eschewing evil , fearing , trusting , obeying , believing in god , holiness and the like ; but the name of vertue doth not occur therein . it is true we have translated 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a vertuous woman ; and once or twice the same word vertuously , ruth . 3. 11. prov. 12. 4. chap● 31. 10 , 39. but that word signifies as 〈◊〉 used , strenuous , industrious , diligent , and hath no such signification as that we now express by vertue . nor is it any where rendred 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by the lxx . although it may have some respect unto it , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may be derived from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and peculiarly denote the exercise of industrious strength , such as men use in battail . for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is vis , robur , potentia , or exercitus also . but in the common acceptation of it , and as it is used by philosophers , there is no word in the hebrew nor syriack properly to express it . the rabbins do it by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which signifies properly a measure . for studying the philosophy of aristotle , and translating his ethicks into hebrew , which was done by rabbi meir , and finding his vertue placed in mediocrity , they applyed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to express it . so they call aristotles ethicks 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the book of measures , that is of vertues . and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are boni mores . such a stranger is this very word unto the old testament . in the new testament 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 occurs four times ; but it should not seem any where to be taken in the sense now generally admitted . in some of the places it rather denotes the excellency and praises that do attend vertue , than vertue it self . so we render 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 praises ; 1 pet. 2. 9. as the syriack doth also 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , praises ; and the same translation , phil. 4. 9. renders 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , if there be any vertue , by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , works glorious , or praise worthy . 2 pet. 1. 9. it is a peculiar gracious disposition , operation of mind , distinguished from faith , temperance , patience , brotherly kindness , godliness , charity , &c. and so cannot have the common sense of the word there put upon it . the word moral is yet far more exotick to the church and scripture . we are beholding for it , if there be any advantage in its use , meerly to the schools of the philosophers , especially of aristotle . his doctrine 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , commonly called his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or moralia , his morals , hath begotten this name for our use . the whole is expressed in isocrates to demonicus by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the vertue of manners . if then the signification of the words be respected as usually taken , it is vertue in mens manners that is intended . the schoolmen brought this expression with all its concerns , as they did the rest of aristotles philosophy , into the church and divinity . and i cannot but think it had been well if they had never done it ; as all will grant they might have omitted some other things without the least disadvantage to learning or religion . however this expression of moral vertue having absolutely possest it self of the fancies and discourses of all , and it may be of the understanding of some , though with very little satisfaction when all things are considered , i shall not endeavour to dispossess it , or eliminate it from the confines of christian theologie . only i am sure had we been left unto the scripture expressions , of repentance towards god , and faith towards our lord jesus christ , of the fear of god , of holiness , righteousness , living unto god , walking with god , and before him , we might have been free from many vain wordy perplexities ; and the whole wrangle of this chapter in particular , had been utterly prevented . for let but the scripture express what it is to be religious , and there will be no contesting about the difference or no difference between grace and moral vertue . it is said , that some judge those who have moral vertue to want grace , not to be gracious . but say , that men are born of god , and do not commit sin , that they walk before god and are upright , that they cleave unto god with full purpose of heart , that they are sanctified in christ jesus and the like , and no man will say that they have not grace , or are not gracious , if they receive your testimony . but having , as was said , made its entrance amongst us , we must deal with it as well as we can , and satisfie our selves about its common acceptation and use. generally , moral vertues are esteemed to be the duties of the second table . for although those who handle these matters more accurately , do not so straiten or confine them , yet it is certain that in vulgar and common acceptation , ( which strikes no small stroke , in the regulating of the conceptions of the wisest men , about the signification of words ) nothing else is intended by moral vertues or duties of morality , but the observation of the precepts of the second table . nor is any thing else designed by those divines , who in their writings so frequently declare , that it is not morality alone that will render men acceptable to god. others do extend these things further , and fix the denomination of moral , firstly upon the law or rule of all those habits of the mind , and its operations , which afterwards thence they call moral . now this moral law is nothing but the law of nature , or the law of our creation ; which the apostle affirms to lye equally obligatory on all men , even all the gentiles themselves , rom. 2. 14 , 15. and whereof the decalogue is summarily expressive . this moral law is therefore the law written in the hearts of all men by nature , which is resolved partly into the nature of god himself , which cannot but require most of the things of it from rational creatures ; partly into that state and condition of the nature of things and their mutual relations , wherein god was pleased to create and set them . these things might be easily instanced and exemplified , but that we must not too much divert from our present occasion . and herein lyes the largest sense and acceptation of the law moral , and consequently of moral vertues , which have their form and being from their relation and conformity thereunto . let it be then , that moral vertues consist in the universal observance of the requisites and precepts of the law of our creation and dependance on god thereby . and this description , as we shall see for the substance of it , is allowed by our author . now these vertues , or this conformity of our minds and actions unto the law of our creation , may be in the light and reason of christian religion , considered two wayes . first , as with respect unto the substance or essence of the duties themselves , they may be performed by men in their own strength , under the conduct of their own reason , without any special assistance from the spirit , or sanctifying grace of christ. in this sense , they still bare the name of vertues , and for the substance of them deserve so to do . good they are in themselves , useful to mankind , and seldome in the providence of god go without their reward in this world. i grant i say , that they may be obtained and acted without special assistance of grace evangelical ; though the wiser heathens acknowledged something divine in the communication of them to men. papinius speaks to that purpose , diva jovis solio juxta comes ; undeper orbem rara dari , terrísque solet contingere virtus . seu pater omnipotens tribuit , sive ipsa capaces elegit penetrare viros . — but old homer put it absolutely in the will of his god. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . thus we grant moral vertue to have been in the heathen of old . for this is that alone whereby they were distinguished amongst themselves . and he that would exclude them all from any interest in moral vertue , takes away all difference between cato and nero , aristides and tiberius , titus and domitian ; and overthrows all natural difference between good and evil ; which besides other abominations that it would plentifully spawn in the world , would inevitably destroy all humane society . but now these moral vertues thus performed , whatever our author thinks , are distinct from grace , may be without it , and in their present description , which is not imaginary but real , are supposed so to be . and if he pleases he may exercise himself in the longsome disputes of bellarmin , gregory de valentia , and others to this purpose innumerable ; not to mention reformed divines lest they should be scornfully rejected as systematical . and this is enough i am sure to free their religion from villany , who make a distinction between moral vertue and grace . and if our author is otherwise minded , and both believe that there is grace evangelical , ●●●●ever there is moral vertue , or , that moral vertues may be so obtained and exercised without the special assistance of grace , as to become a part of our religion , and accepted with god , and will maintain his opinion in writing , i will promise him if i live to return him an answer , on one only condition , which is , that he will first answer what augustine hath written against the pelagians on this subject . again these moral vertues , this observance of the precepts of the law of our creation , in a consonancy whereunto originally the image of god in us did consist , may now under the gospel be considered , as men are principled , assisted , and enabled to and in their performance by the grace of god , and as they are directed unto the especial end of living unto him in and by jesus christ. what is particularly required hereunto , shall be afterwards declared . now in this sense no man living ever distinguished between grace and vertue , any otherwise than the cause and the effect are to be , or may be distinguished ; much less was any person ever so bruitish as to fancy an inconsistency between them , for take grace in one sense , and it is the efficient cause of this vertue , or of these vertues which are the effects of it ; and in another they are all graces themselves . for that which is wrought in us by grace is grace ; as that which is born of the spirit is spirit . to this purpose something may be spoken concerning grace also , the other term , whose ambiguity renders the discourse under consideration somewhat intricate and perplexed . now as the former term of moral vertue owed its original to the schools of philosophy , and its use was borrowed from them ; so this of grace is purely scriptural and evangelical . the world knows nothing of it but what is declared in the word of god , especially in the gospel , for the law was given by moses , but grace and truth came by jesus christ. all the books of the ancient philosophers , will not give us the least light into that notion of grace , which the scripture declares unto us . as then we allowed the sense of the former term given unto it by its first coyners and users , so we cannot but think it equal , that men be precisely tyed up in their conceptions about grace , unto what is delivered in the scripture concerning it ; as having no other rule either to frame them , or judge of them . and this we shall attend unto . not that i here design to treat of the nature of gospel grace in general ; but whereas all the divines that ever i have read on these things , whether ancient or modern ( and i have not troubled my self to consider whether they were systematical ones only or otherwise qualified ) allow some distinctions of this term to be necessary , for the right understanding of those passages of scripture wherein it is made use of . i shall mention that or those only , which are so unto the right apprehension of what is at present under debate . first therefore , grace in the scripture is taken for the free grace , or favour of god towards sinners by jesus christ. by this he freely pardoneth them their , sins , justifieth , and accepteth them , or makes them accepted in the beloved . this certainly is distinct from moral vertue . secondly , it is taken for the effectual working of the spirit of god , in and upon the minds and souls of believers , thereby quickning them when they were dead in trespasses and sins , regenerating of them , creating a new heart in them , implanting his image upon them : neither i presume will this be called moral vertue . thirdly , for the actual supplies of assistance and ability given to believers , so to enable them unto every duty in particular , which in the gospel is required of them ; for he works in them both to will and to do of his own good pleasure . as yet the former distinction will appear necessary . fourthly , for the effects wrought and produced by this operation of god and his grace , in the hearts and minds of them that believe ; which are either habitual in the spiritual disposition of their minds , or actual in their operations ; all which are called grace . it may be our author will be apt to think that i cant , use phrases , or fulsome metaphors . but besides that i can confirm these distinctions , and the necessity of them , and the words wherein they are expressed , from the scriptures and ancient fathers , i can give them him for the substance of them out of very learned divines , whether systematical or no i know not , but this i know they were not long since bishops of the church of england . we are now in the next place to inquire into the mind of our author in these things ; for from his apprehensions about them he frames a mighty difference between himself and those whom he opposeth , and from thence takes occasion and advantage afresh to revile and reproach them . first , therefore he declares his judgement , that the moral vertues which he treats of do consist in mens observance of the law of nature , of the dictates of reason , and precepts thereof . secondly , that the substance , yea the whole of religion consists in these vertues , or duties ; so that by the observation of them men may attain everlasting happiness . thirdly , that there is no actual concurrence of present grace , enabling men to perform these duties , or to exercise these vertues , but they are called grace on another account . fourthly , that his adversaries are so far from making vertue and grace to be the same that they make them inconsistent . and these things shall we take into a brief examination according as indeed they do deserve . the first of them , he plainly and more than once affirms ; nor shall i contend with him about it . so he speaks pag. 68. the practice of vertue consists in living suitably to the dictates of reason and nature , and this is the substance and main design of all the laws of religion , to oblige mankind to behave themselves in all their actions as becomes creatures endowed with reason and understanding , and in wayes suitable to rational beings , to prepare and qualifie themselves for the state of glory and immortality . this is a plain description both of the rule of moral vertues , and of the nature of them . the law of reason and nature is the rule ; and their own nature ( as acting , or acted ) consists in a suitableness unto rational beings ; acting , to prepare themselves for the state of immortality and glory . the first end of all vertue no doubt . we need not therefore make any farther inquiry into this matter , wherein we are agreed . secondly , that the substance , yea the whole of religion consists in these moral vertues he fully also declares , pag. 69. moral vertue having the strongest and most necessary influence upon the , end of all religion viz. mans happiness , it is not only its most material and useful part , but the ultimate end of all its other duties ; ( though i know not , how the practice of vertue in this life can be the vltimate end of other duties ) and all true religion can consist in nothing else but either the practice of vertue it self , or the use of those means and instruments that contribute unto it . so also p. 70. all duties of devotion excepting only our returns of gratitude are not essential parts of religion , but are only in order to it , as they tend to the practice of vertue and moral goodness ; and their goodness is derived upon them from the moral vertues to which they contribute ; and in the same proportion they are conducive to the ends of vertue , they are to be valued among the ministeries of religion . so then the whole duty of man consists in being vertuous , and all that is injoyned him beside , is in order thereunto . hence we are told elsewhere , that outward worship is no part of religion ; again pag. 76. all religion must of necessity be resolved into enthusiasm or morality ; the former is meer imposture , and therefore all that is true must be reduced to the latter . but we need not insist on particulars , seeing he promoteth this to confirmation by the best of demonstrations , i. e. an induction of all particulars ; which he calls a scheme of religion ; wherein yet if any thing necessary be left out or omitted , this best of demonstrations is quickly turned into one of the worst of sophismes . therefore we have here ( no doubt ) a just and full representation of all that belongs to christian religion ; and it is as follows ; pag. 69. the whole duty of man referrs either to his creator , or his neighbour , or himself . all that concerns the two last , is confessedly of a moral nature ; and all that concerns the first , consists either in praising of god or praying to him ; the former is a branch of the vertue of gratitude , and is nothing but a thankful and humble temper of mind , arising from a sense of gods greatness in himself , and his goodness to us . so that this part of devotion issues from the same vertuous quality , that is the principle of all other resentments and expressions of gratitude ; only those acts of it that are terminated on god as their object are stiled religious ; and therefore gratitude and devotion are not divers things , but only differing names of the same thing ; devotion being nothing else but the vertue of gratitude towards god. the latter , viz. prayer is either put up in our own or other mens behalf ; if for others it is an act of that vertue we call kindness or charity ; if for our selves , the things we pray for , unless they be the comforts and enjoyments of this life , are some or other vertuous qualities ; and therefore the proper and direct use of prayer is to be instrumental to the vertues of morality . it is of christian religion that this author treats , as is manifest from his ensuing discourse , and the reason he gives why moral vertues are stiled graces . now i must needs say that i look on this of our author as the rudest , most imperfect , and weakest scheme of christian religion that ever yet i saw ; so far from comprising an induction of all particulars belonging to it , that there is nothing in it that is constitutive of christian religion as such at all . i wish he had given us a summary of the credenda of it , as he hath done of its agenda , that we might have had a prospect of the body of his divinity . the ten commandments would in my mind have done twice as well on this present occasion , with the addition of the explication of them given us in the church cateehism . but i am afraid that very catechism may ere long be esteemed phanatical also . one i confess i have read of before , who was of this opinion , that all religion consisted in morality alone . but withall he was so ingenious as to follow the conduct of his judgement in this matter , unto a full renunciation of the gospel , which is certainly inconsistent with it . this was one martin sidelius a seilesian , who gave the ensuing account of his faith unto faustus socinus and his society at cracovia . caeterum ut sciatis cujus sim religionis , quamvis id scripto meo quod habetis , ostenderim , tamen hic breviter repetam . et primum quidem doctrina de messia , seu rege illo promisso , ad meam religionem nihil pertinet : nam rex elle tantum judaeis promissus erat , sicut & bona illa canaan . sic etiam circumcisio sacrificia , & reliquae cerimoniae mosis ad me non pertinent , sed tantum populo judaico promissa data & mandata sunt . neque ista fuerunt cultus dei apud judaeos , sed inserviebant cultui divino , & ad cultum deducebant judaeos . verus autem cultus dei quem meam religionem appello , est decalogus : qui est aeterna dei voluntas , qui decalogus ideo ad me pertinet , quia etiam mihi à deo datus est , non quidem per vocems sonantem de coelo , sicut populo judaico , at per creationem insita est menti meae ; quia autem insitus decalogus , per corruptionem naturae humanae , & pravis consuetudinibus , aliqua ex parte obscuratus est , ideo ad illustrandum cum , adhibeo vocalem decalogum , qui vocalis decalogus , ideo etiam ad me , ad omnes populos pertinet , quia cum insito nobis decalogo consentit , imo idem ille decalogus est . haec est mea sententia de messia seu rege illo promisso , & haec est mea religio , quam coram vobis ingenue profiteor . martin seidelius olavensis silesius . that is . but that you may know of what religion i am , although it is expressed in that writing which you have already , yet i will here briefly repeat it . and first of all , the doctrine of the messiah , or king that was promised doth not belong to my religion ; for that king was promised to the jews only ; as was the good land of c●n●an . so in like manner circumcision , sacrifices and the rest of the ceremonies of moses belong not to me , but were promised , given , and granted unto the people of the jews alone . neither were they the worship of god among the jews , but were only subservient unto divine worship , and lead the jews unto it ( the same opinion is maintained by our author concerning all exterior worship : ) but the true worship which i call my religion , is the decalogue which is the eternal and immutable will of god ; ( and here also he hath the consent and concurrence of our author ) which decalogue doth therefore belong unto me because it is given by god to me also ; not indeed by a voice sounding from heaven as he gave it to the people of the jews , but it is implanted in my mind by nature . but because this implanted decalogue by reason of the corruption of humane nature , and through depraved customs , is in some measure obscured , for the illustration of it i make use of the vocal decalogue , which therefore also belongs unto me and all people ; because it consenteth with the decalogue written in our hearts ; yea is the same law with it . this is my opinion concerning the messiah , or the promised king ; and this is my religion which i freely acknowledge before ye . so he , this is plain dealing . he saw clearly , that if all religion and the worship of god consisted in morality only , there was neither need nor use of christ , nor the gospel . and accordingly having no outward advantage by them , discarded them . but setting aside his bold renunciation of christ as promised , i see not any material difference between the religion of this man and that now contended for . the poor deluded souls among our selves , who leaving the scripture , pretend that they are guided by the light within them , are upon the matter of the same religion . for that light being nothing but the dictates of reason and a natural conscience , it extends not it self beyond morality ; which some of them understanding , we know what thoughts and apprehensions they have had of christ and of his gospel and the worship of god instituted therein . for hence it is , ( and not as our author pretends , with a strange incogitancy concerning them and the gnosticks , that they assert the scripture to be the only rule of religious worship ) that they are fallen into these fond imaginations . and these are the effects which this principle doth naturally lead unto . i confess then that i do not agree with our author in and about this scheme of christian religion ; which i shall therefore first briefly put in my exceptions unto , and then offer him another in lieu of it . first , then this scheme seems to represent religion unto us as suited to the state of innocency , and that very imperfectly also . for it is composed to answer the former assertions of confining religion to moral vertues , which are granted to consist in our conformity unto and expression of the dictates of reason and the law of nature . again the whole duty of man is said to refer either to his creator , or his neighbour , or himself . had it been said to god absolutely , another interpretation might have been put upon the words . but being restrained unto him as our creator , all duties referring to our redeemer are excluded , or not included , which certainly have some place in christian religion . our obedience therein is the obedience of faith , and must answer the special objects of it . and we are taught in the church catechism to believe in god the father who made us and all the world , and in god the son who redeemed us and all mankind ; and in god the holy ghost , who sanctifies us and all the elect people of god. now these distinct acts of faith , have distinct acts of obedience attending them ; whereas none here are admitted , or at least required , but those which fall under the first head . it is also very imperfect as a description of natural religion , or the duties of the law of nature . for the principal duties of it , such as fear , love , trust , affiance of and in god , are wholly omitted ; nor will they be reduced unto either of the heads which all religion is here distributed unto . for gratitude unto god hath respect formally and directly to the benefits we our selves are made partakers of . but these duties are eternally necessary on the consideration of the nature of god himself , antecedent unto the consideration of his communicating of himself unto us by his benefits . prayer proceeds from them ; and it is an odd method to reduce the cause under the head of its effect . and prayer it self is made at length not to be so much a moral vertue , as somewhat instrumental to the vertues of morality . secondly , i cannot think we have here a compleat representation of christian religion , nor an induction of all its particulars , because we have neither supposition nor assertion of sin , or a redeemer , or of any duty with respect unto them . gratitude and prayer i confess are two heads , whereunto sundry duties of natural religion without respect unto these things may be reduced . but since the fall of adam , there was never any religion in the world accepted with god , that was not built and founded on the supposition of them , and whose principal duties towards god did not respect them . to prescribe now unto us a religion as it respects god , without those duties which arise from the consideration of sin , and a redeemer , is to perswade us to throw away our bibles . sin , and the condition of all men on the account thereof , their duty in that condition , what god requires of them with reference thereunto , the way that god hath found out , proposed , and requires of us to make use of , that we may be delivered from that condition , with the duties necessary to that end , do even constitute and make up that religion which the scripture teacheth us , and which , as it summarily expresseth it self , consists in repentance towards god , and faith in our lord jesus christ ; neither of which , nor scarce any thing that belongs unto them , appears in this scheme ; so that thirdly , the most important duties of christian religion are here not only omitted , but excluded . where shall we find any place here to introduce repentance ; and as belonging thereunto conviction of sin , humiliation , godly sorrow , conversion it self to god ? for my part i will never be of that religion where these duties towards god have no place . faith in our lord jesus christ , with all that is necessary to it , preparatory for it , included in it , and consequentiall on it , are in like manner cast out of the verge of religious duties here schematized . an endeavour to fly from the wrath to come , to receive jesus christ , to accept of the attonement , to seek after the forgiveness of sins by him ( that we may cant a little ) and to give up our souls in universal obedience to all his commands , belong also to the duties of that religion towards god which the scripture prescribeth unto us ; but here they appear not in the least intimation of them . no more do the duties which though generally included in the law of loving god above all , yet are prescribed and determined in the gospel alone . such are self-denyal , readiness to take up the cross , and the like . besides all the duties wherein our christian conflict against our spiritual adversaries doth consist , and in especial the whole of our duty towards god in the mortification of sin , can be of no consideration there , where no supposition of sin is made or allowed . but there would be no end if all exceptions of this nature , that readily offer themselves , might here have admittance . if this be the religion of our adversaries in these things , if this be a perfect scheme of its duties towards god , and induction of all its particulars ; let our author insult over , and reproach them whilst he pleaseth , who blame it as insufficient without grace and godliness : i would not be in the condition of them who trust their eternal concernments to meer observance of it ; as knowing that there is no name under heaven given unto men whereby they may be saved , but only the name of jesus christ. it will be in vain pretended , that it is not a description of christian religion , but of religion , as religion in general , that is here attempted . for besides that , it is christian religion , and that as used and practised by christians , which is alone under consideration ; and an introduction of religion here under any other notion would be grievously inconsistent and incoherent with the whole discourse . it is acknowledged by our author in the progress of his disputation as was before observed , when he gives a reason why moral vertue is stiled grace , which is peculiar and appropriate to christian religion alone . besides , to talk now of a religion in the world , which either hath been , or may be , since the fall of adam without respect unto sin , is to build castles in the air . all the religion that god now requires , prescribes , accepts , that is or can be , is the religion of sinners , or of those who are such , and of them as such , though also under other qualifications . on many accounts therefore this scheme of religion or religious duties towards god , is exceedingly insufficient and imperfect . to lay it therefore as a foundation whereon to stand , and revile them who plead for a superaddition unto it of grace and godliness , is an undertaking from whence no great success is to be expected . i can easily supply another scheme of religion in the room of this , which though it have not any such contexture of method , nor is set out with such gaudy words as those which our author hath at his disposal , yet i am confident in the confession of all christians shall give a better account than what is here offered unto us both of the religion we profess , and of the duties that god requires therein ; and this taken out of one epistle of st. paul ; namely , that to the romans . and i shall do it as things come to mind in the haste wherein i am writing . he then gives us his scheme to this purpose . as first , that all men sinned in adam , came short of the glory of god , and rendred themselves liable to death and the whole curse of the law. then , that they do all , as left to themselves accumulate their original sin and transgression , with a world of actual sins , and provocations of god. that against men in this condition , god testifies his wrath and displeasure , both in his works and by his word . hence it necessarily follows , that the first duty of man towards god is to be sensible of this condition , of the guilt of sin , with a fear of the wrath and judgement due to them . then he informs us , that neither the jews by the law , nor the gentiles by the light of nature , could disentangle themselves from this state , or do that which is pleasing unto god , so as they might obtain forgiveness of sin and acceptation with him . this bespeaks unto all the great duty towards god , of their acknowledgement unto him , of their miserable and helpless condition , with all those affections and subordinate duties , wherewith it is attended . in this state he declares , that god himself in his infinite wisdome , goodness and grace , provided a remedy , a way of relief ; on which he hath put such an impression of his glorious excellencies as may stirr up the hearts of his creatures , to endeavour a return unto him from their apostasie ; and that this remedy consists in his setting forth jesus christ to be a propitiation through faith in his blood , to declare his righteousness for the forgiveness of sin ; which he proposeth unto men for their receiving and acceptance . this renders it the greatest duty of mankind towards god , to believe in the son of god so set forth , to seek after an interest in him , or being made partaker of him ; for this is the great work that god requires , namely that we believe on him whom he hath sent . again , he declares that god justifieth them who so believe , pardoning their sins , and imputing righteousness unto them ; whereon innumerable duties do depend , even all the obedience that christ requires of us ; seeing in our believing in him , we accept him to be our king to rule , govern and conduct our souls to god. and all these are religious duties towards god. he declares moreover , that whereas men are by nature dead in trespasses and sins , and stand in need of a new spiritual life , to be born again , that they may live unto god ; that god in jesus christ doth by his spirit quicken them , and regenerate them , and work in them a new principle of spiritual life ; whence it is their great duty towards god ( in this religion of st. paul ) to comply with , and to yield obedience , unto all the wayes and methods that god is pleased to use in the accomplishment of this work upon them , the especial duties whereof are too many to be instanced in . but he further manifests , that notwithstanding the regeneration of men by the spirit , and their conversion to god , there yet continues in them a remainder of the principle of corrupted nature , which he calls the flesh , and indwelling sin , that is of it self wholly enmity against god , and as far it abides in any , inclines the heart and mind unto sin , which is to be watched against and opposed . and on this head , he introduceth the great religious duty towards god of our spiritual conflict against sin , and of the mortification of it , wherein those that believe are to be exercised all the dayes of their lives , and wherein their principal duty towards god doth consist , and without which they can perform no other in a due manner . moreover he farther adds the great gospel-priviledge of the communication of the spirit of christ unto believers , for their sanctification , consolation , and edification ; with the duties of thankfulness towards god , joy and rejoycing in him , cheerfulness under tryals , afflictions , and persecutions , and sundry others that on that account are required of us , all religious duties towards god , in the religion by him proposed unto us . having laid these foundations , and manifested how they all proceed from the eternal counsel and free grace of god , in which it is our duty to admire , adore , and praise him , he declareth how hereby and on the account of these things , we are bound unto all holiness , righteousness , godliness , honesty , and usefulness in this world , in all relations and conditions whatsoever ; declaring our duties in churches , according to our especial interest in them , towards believers ; and towards all men in the world in our several relations ; in obedience to magistrates ; and all superiors ; in a word in universal observance of the whole will and all the commands of god. now whither any one will call this a scheme or no , or allow it to have any thing of method in it or no , i neither know nor care ; but am perswaded that it makes a better , more plain , and intelligible representation of the religious duties towards god which christian religion , requires of us , unto all that suppose this whole religion to depend on divine revelation , than that of our author . but i find my self in a digression ; the end of this discourse was only to manifest the sentiments of our author , on the second head before laid down , which i think are sufficiently evinced . the third is , that there is no actual work of present grace , either to sit the persons , of whom these duties of moral vertues are required , unto the performance of them , or to work and effect them in them . for although they are called graces , and the graces of the spirit , in the scripture , yet that is upon another account ; as he declares himself , pag. 72. all that the scripture intends by the graces of the spirit , are only vertuous qualities of the soul that are therefore stiled graces , because they are derived purely from god's free-grace and goodness , in that in the first ages of christianity , he was pleased out of his infinite concern for its propagation , in a miraculous manner to inspire its converts with all sorts of vertue . vertuous qualities of the soul , is a very ambigious expression . take these vertuous qualities , for a new principle of spiritual life , consisting in the habitual disposition , inclination , and ability of mind unto the things required of us in the will of god , or unto the acts of religious obedience , and it may express the graces of the spirit ; which yet are far enough from being so called upon the account here mentioned . but these vertuous qualities , are to be interpreted according to the tenour of the preceding discourses , that have already passed under examination . let now our author produce any one writer of the church of god , from first to last , of any repute or acceptation , from the day that the name of christian was known in the world , unto this wherein we live , giving us this account why the fruits of the spirit , the vertuous or gracious qualities of the minds of believers , are called graces that here he gives , and i will give him my thanks publickly for his discovery . for if this be the only reason why any thing in believers is called grace , why vertues are graces , namely because god was pleased in the first ages of christianity miraculously to inspire its converts with all sorts of vertue , then there is ●o communication of grace unto any , no work of grace in and upon any , in an ordinary way , through the ministry of the gospel , in these latter ages . the whole being , and efficacy of grace , according to this notion , is to be confined unto the miraculous operations of god in gospel concernments , in the first ages , whence a denomination in the scripture is cast upon our vertues , when obtained and exercised by and in our own strength . now this plainly overthrows the whole gospel , and contains a pelagianisme that pelagius himself never did , nor durst avow . are these things then so indeed ? that god did from his free grace and goodness , miraculously inspire the first converts of christianity with all sorts of vertues , but that he doth not still continue to put forth in any , actually , the efficacy of his grace , to make them gracious , holy , believing , obedient to himself , and to work in them all suitable actings towards himself and others ? then farewell scripture , the covenant of grace , the intercession of christ , yea all the ancient fathers , counsels , schoolmen , and most of the jesuites themselves . many have been the disputes amongst christians about the nature of grace , the rule of its dispensation , the manner and way of its operation , its efficacy , concurrence , and co-operation in the wills of men ; but that there is no dispensation of it , no operation but what was miraculous in the first converts of the gospel , was i think untill now undiscovered . nor can it be here pretended , that although the vertuous qualities of our minds and their exercise , by which is intended all the obedience that god requireth of us , in principle and practice , that we may please him , and come to the enjoyment of him , are not said to be called graces , only , on the account mentioned ; for as in respect of us , they are not so termed at all , so if the term only be not understood , the whole discourse is impertinent and ridiculous . for those other reasons and accounts that may be taken in , will render that given utterly useless unto our authors intention , and indeed are altogether inconsistent with it . and he hath given us no reason to suppose , that he talks after such a weak and preposterous a rate . this then is that which is here asserted , the qualities of our minds and their exercise wherein the vertues pleaded about , and affirmed to contain the whole substance of religion , do consist , are not wrought in us by the grace or spirit of god through the preaching of the gospel , but are only called graces , as before . now though here be a plain contradiction to what is delivered but two pages before , namely , that we pray for some or other vertuous qualities , that is doubtless to be wrought in us by the grace of god ; yet this present discourse is capable of no other interpretation but that given unto it . and indeed it seems to be the design of some men , to confine all real gifts and graces of the spirit of god , to the first ages of the gospel , and the miraculous operations in it ; which is to overthrow the whole gospel , the church , and the ministry of it , as to their use and efficacy , leaving men only the book of the bible to philosophize upon , as shall be elsewhere demonstrated , our author indeed tells us , that on the occasion of some mens writings in theology , there hath been a buzz and a noise of the spirit of god in the world. his expressions are exceedingly suited to pour contempt on what he doth not approve ; not so to express what he doth himself intend . but i desire that he and others would speak plain , and openly in this matter , that neither others may be deceived nor themselves have occasion to complain that they are mis-represented ; a pretence whereof would probably give them a dispensation to deal very roughly , if not despightfully with them with whom they shall have to do . doth he therefore think or believe , that there are not now any real gracious operations of the spirit of god , upon the hearts and minds of men in the world ? that the dispensation of the spirit is ceased , as well unto ordinary ministerial gifts , with its sanctifying , renewing , assisting grace , as unto gifts miraculous and extraordinary ? that there is no work at all of god upon the hearts of sinners , but that which is purely moral , and perswasive by the word ? that what is asserted by some concerning the efficacy of the grace of the spirit , and concerning his gifts , is no more but a buzz and a noise ? i wish he would explain himself directly and positively in these things ; for they are of great importance . and the loose expressions which we meet with , do give great offence unto some , who are apt to think , that as pernicious an heresie as ever infested the church of god , may be covered and clocked by them . but to return ; in the sense that moral vertue is here taken , i dare boldly pronounce , that there is no villany in the religion of those men , who distinguish between vertue and grace ; that is , there not in their so doing ; this being the known and avowed religion of christianity . it is granted ; that whereever grace is , there is vertue . for grace will produce and effect all vertues in the soul whatever . but vertue on the other side may be where there is no grace , which is sufficient to confirm a distinction between them . it was so in fundry of the heathen of old ; though now it be pretended that grace is nothing but an occasional denomination of vertue , not that it is the cause or principle of it . but the proofs produced by our author are exceedingly incompetent unto the end whereunto they are applyed . for that place of the apostle , gal. 5. v. 22 , 23. the fruit of the spirit is love , joy , peace , long-suffering , gentleness , goodness , faith , meekness , temperance ; though our author should be allowed to turn joy into cheerfulness , peace into peaceableness , faith into faithfulness , as he hath done , corruptly enough , to accommodate it to his purpose , yet it will no way reach his end , nor satisfie his intention . for doth it follow that because the spirit effects all these moral vertues in a new and gracious manner , and with a direction to a new and special end in believers , either that these things are nothing but meer moral vertues , not wrought in us by the grace of god , ( the contrary whereof is plainly asserted in calling them fruits of the spirit ) or that where-ever there is moral vertue , though not so wrought by the spirit , that there is grace also , because vertue and grace are the same ? if these are the expositions of scripture which we may expect from them , who make such out-cries against other mens , perverting and corrupting of it , the matter is not like to be much mended with us , for ought i can see , upon their taking of that work into their own hands . and indeed his quotation of this place is pretty odd . he doth not in the print express the words as he useth , and as he doth those of another scripture immediately , in a different character , as the direct words of the apostle , that no man may charge him with a false allegation of the text. yet he repeats all the words of it which he intends to use to his purpose , somewhat altering the expressions . but he hath had , i fear , some unhappiness in his explanations . by joy he would have cheerfulness intended . but what is meant by cheerfulness is much more uncertain than what is intended by joy. mirth it may be in conversation is aimed at , or somewhat of that nature . but how remote this is from that spiritual joy , which is recommended unto us in the scripture , and is affirmed to be unspeakable and full of glory , he that knows not , is scarce meet to paraphrase upon st. pauls epistles . neither is that peace with god through jesus christ , which is rought in the hearts of believers by the holy ghost , who creates the fruit of the lipps , peace , peace , unto them , a matter of any more affinity with a moral peaceableness of mind and affections . our faith also in god , and our faithfulness in our duties , trusts , offices and employments , are sufficiently distinct . so palpably must the scripture be corrupted and wrested to be made serviceable to this presumption . he yet adds another proof to the same purpose , if any man know distinctly what that purpose is ; namely , titus 2. 11. where he tells us that the same apostle make the grace of god , to consist in gratitude towards god , temperance towards our selves , and justice towards our neighbours . but these things are not so . for the apostle doth not say that the grace of god doth consist in these things , but that the grace of god teacheth us these things . neither is the grace here intended , any subjective or inherent grace , or to speak with our author any vertuous quality or vertue , but the love and grace of god himself , in sending jesus christ as declared in the gospel , was is manifest in the words and context beyond contradiction . and i cannot but wonder , how our author desirous to prove that the whole of our religion consists in moral vertues , and these only called graces because of the miraculous operations of god from his own grace in the first gospel converts , should endeavour to do it by these two testimonies ; the first whereof expresly assigns the duties of morality as in believers , to the operation of the spirit , and the latter in his judgment makes them to proceed from grace . our last inquiry is into what he ascribes unto his adversaries in this matter , and how he deals with them thereupon . this therefore he informs us pag. 71. it is not enough say they to be compleatly vertuous , unless ye have grace too . i can scarce believe that ever he heard any one of them say so , or ever read it in any of their writings . for there is nothing that they are more positive in , than that men cannot in any sense be compleatly vertuous unless they have grace ; and so cannot suppose them to be so , who have it not . they say indeed , that moral vertues , as before described , so far as they are attainable by , or may be exercised in the strength of mens own wills and natural faculties , are not enough to please god and to make men accepted with him . so that vertue as it may be without grace , and some vertues may be so for the substance of them , is not available unto salvation . and i had almost said that he is no christian that is of another mind . in a word , vertue is , or may be without grace , in all or any of the acceptations of it before laid down . where it is without the favour of god and the pardon of sin , where it is without the renewing of our natures , and the endowment of our persons with a principle of spiritual life , where it is not wrought in us by present efficacious grace , it is not enough ; nor will serve any mans turn with respect unto the everlasting concernments of his soul. but he gives in his exceptions , pag. 71. but when , saith he , we have set aside all manner of vertue , let them tell me what remains to be called grace , and give me any notion of it distinct from all morality , that consists in the right order and government of our actions in all our relations , and so comprehends all our duty ; and therefore if grace be not included in it , it is but a phantasme and an imaginary thing . i say first ; where grace is , we cannot set aside vertue , because it will and doth produce and effect it in the minds of men . but vertue may be , where grace is not , in the sense so often declared . secondly , take moral vertue in the notion of it here received and explained by our author , and i have given sundry instances before , of gracious duties , that come not within the verge or compass of the scheme given us of it . thirdly , the whole aimed at , lies in this , that vertue that governs our actions in all our duties may be considered either as the duty we owe to the law of nature , for the ends of it , to be performed in the strength of nature , and by the direction of it , or it may be considered as it is an especial effect of the grace of god in us , which gives it a new principle , and a new end , and a new respect unto the covenant of grace wherein we walk with god , the consideration where of frustrates the intention of our author in this discourse . but he renews his charge , pag. 73. so destructive of all true and real goodness is the very religion of those men , that are wont to set grace at odds with vertue ; and are so farr from making them the same , that they make them inconsistent ; and though a man be exact in all the duties of moral goodness , yet if he be a graceless person ( i. e. void of i know not what imaginary godliness ) he is but in a cleaner way to hell ; and his conversion is more hopeless than the vilest and most notorious sinners , and the morally righteous man is at a greater distance from grace , than the prophane ; and better be lend and debanched than live an honest and vertuous life , if you are not of the godly party ; with much more to this purpose . for the men that are wont to set grace at odds with vertue , and are so far from making them the same , that they make them inconsistent ; i wish our author would discover them , that he might take us along with him in his detestation of them . it is not unlikely , if all be true that is told of them , but that the gnosticks might have some principles not unlike this ; but beside them i never heard of any that were of this mind in the world . and in truth the liberty that is taken in these discourses , is a great instance of the morality under consideration . but the following words will direct us where these things are charged . for some say , that if a man be exact in all the duties of moral goodness , yet if he be a graceless person , void of i know not what imaginary godliness , he is but in a cleaner way to hell. i think i know both what , and who are intended , and that both are dealt withal with that candour we have been now accustomed unto . but first , you will scarce find those you intend over forward in granting that men may be exact in all the duties of moral goodness , and yet be graceless persons . for taking moral vertues to comprehend , as you do , their duties toward god , they will tell you such persons cannot perform one of them aright , much less all of them exactly . for they can neither trust in god , no believe him , nor fear him , nor glorifie him in a due manner . take the duties of moral goodness , for the duties of the law between man and man , and the observation of the outward duties of gods worship , and they say indeed , that they may be so performed as that in respect of them , men may be blameless , and yet be graceless . for that account if they mistake not the apostle paul gives of himself . phil. 3. 6 , 7 , 8. they do say therefore that many of these duties , so as to be useful in the world , and blameless before men , they may perform who are yet graceless . thirdly , this gracelessness is said to consist in being void of i know not what imaginary godliness . no , no ; it is to be void of the spirit of god , of the grace of christ , not to be born again , not to have a new spiritual life in christ , not to be united to him , or ingrafted in him , not to be accepted and made an heir of god , and enabled to a due spiritual evangelical performance of all duties of obedience , according to the tenour of the covenant ; these are the things intended . and as many with their moral duties may come short of them and be graceless ; so those to whom they are imaginary , must reject the whole gospel of christ as an imagination . and i must say , to give matter of a new charge , that to the best observation that i have been able to make in the world , none have been , nor are more negligent in the principal duties of morality , than those who are aptest to exalt them above the gospel , and the whole mystery of it ; unless morality do consist in such a course of life and conversation , as i will not at present charactarize . it is farther added , that the conversion of such a one , is more hopeless than the vilest and most notorious sinners ; and the morally righteous man , &c. setting aside the inviduous expression of what is here reflected upon , and there is nothing more openly taught in the gospel . the pharisees were a people morally righteous , whereon they trusted to themselves that they were righteous ; and yet our lord jesus christ told them , that publicans and harlots , the vilest and most notorious of sinners , entred before them into the kingdom of god. and where men trust to their own righteousness , their own duties , be they moral or what they will , there are no men farther from the way of the gospel than they . nay our saviour lets us know , that as such , the gospel is not concerned in them , not they in it . he came not , he sayes , to call the righteous , but sinners to repentance ; not men justifying , or lifting up themselves in a co●ceit of their moral duties , but those who are burdened and laden with a sense of their sins . and so in like manner , that the whole have no need of the physitian but the sick ; and st. paul declares what enemies they were to the righteousness of god , who went about to set up their own righteousness ; rom. 10. now because moral duties are incumbent on all persons , at all times , they are continually to be pressed upon all , from a sense of the authority , and command of god , indispensibly requiring all mens attendance unto them . yet such is the deceitfulness of the heart of man , and the power of unbelief , that oftentimes persons who through their education , or following convictions , have been brought to some observance of them , and being not enlightned in their minds to discern their insufficiency unto the great end of salvation , in and of themselves , are apt to take up with them , and to rest in them without ever coming to sincere repentance towards god , or faith in our lord jesus christ ; whereas others , the guilt of whose sins doth unavoidably press upon them , as it did on the publicans and sinners of old , are oft times more ready to look out after relief . and those who question these things , do nothing but manifest their ignorance in the scripture , and want of experience in the work of the ministry . but yet upon the account of the charge mentioned , so unduly framed , and impotently managed , our author makes an excursion into such an extravagancy of reproaches , as is scaree exceeded in his whole book : part of it i have considered before in our view of his preface ; and i am now so used to the noise and bluster wherewith he pours out the storm of his indignation , that i am altogether inconcerned in it , and cannot prevail with my self to give it any further consideration . these things though not direct to the argument in hand , and which on that account might have been neglected ; yet supposing that the author placed as much of his design in them , as in any part of his discourse , i could not wholly omit the consideration of ; not so much out of a desire for their vindication who are unduly traduced in them , as to plead for the gospel it self , and to lay a foundation of a further defence of the truths of it , if ocasiou shall so require . and we have also here an insight into the judgment of our author , or his mistake in this matter . he tells us that it is better to tollerate debaucheries and immoralities , than liberty of conscience , for men to worship god according to their light and perswasion . now all religion according to him , consisting in morality , to tollerate immoralities and debauckeries in conversation , is plainly to tollerate atheism ; which it seems is more eligible than to grant liberty of conscience , unto them who differ from the present establishment , only as to some things belonging to the outward worship of god. these things being premised , the argument it self pleaded in this chap. is capable of a speedy dispatch . it is to this purpose . the magistrate hath power over the consciences of men in reference to morals , or moral vertues , which are the principal things in religion , and therefore much more hath so in reference to the worship of god , which is of less importance . we have complained before of the ambiguity of these general terms , but it is to no purpose to do so any more , seeing we are not like to be relieved in this discourse . let us then take things as we find them , and satisfie our selves in the intention of the author , by that declaration which he makes of it up and down the chap. but yet here we are at a loss also . when he speaks , or seems to speak to this purpose , whether in the confirmation of the proposition , or the inference , whereof his argument consists , what he sayes is cast into such an inter-texture with invectives and reproaches , and expressed in such a loose declamatory manner , as it is hard to discover or find out what it is that he intends . suppose therefore in the first place , that a man should call his consequent into question ; namely that because the magistrate hath power over the consciences of his subjects in morals , that therefore he hath so also in matters of instituted worship ? how will he confirm and vindicate it ? two things are all i can observe that are offered in the confirmation of it . first , that these things of morality , moral vertues , are of more importance in religion than the outward worship of god , which the amplitude of power before asserted , is now reducing to a respect unto . secondly , that there is much more danger of his erring and mistaking in things of morality , than in things of outward worship , because of their great weight and importance . these things are pleaded , p. 28. and elsewhere up and down . that any thing else is offered , in the confirmation of this consequent i find not . and it may be some will think these proofs to be very weak and feeble , unable to sustain the weight that is laid upon them . for it is certain that the first rule , that he that hath power over the greater , hath so over the lesser , doth not hold unless it be in things of the same nature and kind ; and it is no less certain and evident , that there is an especial and formal difference between these things , namely moral vertues , and instituted worship ; the one depending as to their being and discovery on the light of nature , and the dictates of that reason which is common to all , and speakes the same language in the consciences of all mankind ; the other on pure revelation , which may be , and is variously apprehended . hence it is , that whereas there is no difference in the world about what is vertue and what is not , there is no agreement about what belongs to divine worship and what doth not . again ; lesser things may be exempted from that power and authority by especial priviledge or law , which hath the disposal of greater committed into it , and intrusted with it . as the magistrate amongst us , may take away the life of a man , which is the greatest of his concernments , the name of his all , for fellony , but cannot take away his estate or inheritance of land , which is a far less concernment unto him , if it be antecedently setled by law to other uses than his own . and if it cannot be proved that the disposal of the worship of god , as to what doth really and truly belong unto it , and all the parts of it , is exempted from all humane power by special law and priviledge , let it be disposed of as who so will , shall judge meet . nor is the latter consideration suggested to inforce this consequent of any more validity ; namely , that there is more danger of the magistrates erring or mistakes about moral vertue , than about rites of worship ; because that is of most concernment in religion . for it is true , that suppose a man to walk on the top of an high house or tower , on a plain floor with battlements or walls round about him , there will be more danger of breaking his neck , if he should fall from thence , than if he should fall from the top of a narrow wall that had not the fourth part of the heighth of the house . but there would not be so much danger of falling . for from the top of the house as circumstantiated , he cannot fall , unless he will wilfully and violently cast himself down headlong ; and on the top of the wall , it may be , he cannot stand , with the utmost of his heed and endeavours . the magistrate cannot mistake about moral vertues unless he will do it wilfully . they have their station fixed in the world , on the same ground and evidence with magistracy it self . the same evidence , the same common consent and suffrage of mankind is given unto moral vertues , as is to any government in the world. and to suppose a supream magistrate , a law-giver , to mistake in these things , in judging whether justice , and temperance , or fortitude , be vertues or no , and that in their legislative capacity , is ridiculous . neither nero nor caligula were ever in danger of any such mis-adventure . all the magistrates in the world at this day , are agreed about these things . but as to what concerns the worship of god , they are all at variance . there is no such evidence in these things , no such common suffrage about them , as to free any absolutely from failings and mistakes ; so that in respect of them , and not of the other , lyes the principal danger of miscarrying , as to their determination and administration . supposing therefore the premises our author layes down to be true , his inference from them is feeble , and obnoxious to various impeachments , whereof i have given some few instances only , which shall be increased if occasion require . but the assertion it self which is the foundation of these consequences , is utterly remote from accuracy and truth . it is said that the magistrate hath power over the consciences of men in reference unto moral duties , which are the principal parts of religion . our first and most difficult inquiry , is after the meaning of this proposition , the later after its truth . i ask then , first whether he hath power over the consciences of men with respect unto moral vertue , and over moral vertue it self , as vertue , and as a part of religion , or on some other account ; if his power respect vertue as a part of religion , then it equally extends it self to all that is so , by vertue of a rule which will not be easily everted . but it doth not appear that it so extends it self as to plead an obliging authority in reference unto all duties . for let but the scheme of moral duties , especially those whose object is god , given us by our author be considered , and it will quickly be discerned how many of them are exempted from all humane cognizance and authority ; and that from and by their nature as well as their use in the world. and it is in vain to ascribe an authority to magistrates which they have no power to exert , or take cognizance whether it be obeyed or no. and what can they do therein with respect unto gratitude to god , which holds the first place in the scheme of moral vertues here given in unto us . we are told also , p. 83. that in matters both of moral vertue , and divine worship , there are some rules of good and evil that are of an eternal and unchangeable obligation , and these can never be prejudiced or altered by any humane power , because the reason of their obligation arises from a necessity and constitution of nature , and therefore must be 〈◊〉 perpetual as that ; but then there are other rules of duty that are alterable according to the various accidents changes and conditions of humane life , and depend chiefly upon contracts and positive laws of kingdoms . it would not be unworthy our inquiry to consider what rules of moral duty they are , which are alterable and depend on accidents and contracts . but we might easily find work enough , should we call all such fond assertions to a just examination . neither doth the distinction here given us between various rules of moral vertue , very well answer what we are told , p. 69. namely , that every particular vertue is therefore such , because it is are semblance and imitation of some of the divine attributes , which i suppose they are not , whose rules and formes are alterable upon accidents and occasions . and we are taught also , pag. 68. that the practice of vertue consists in living suitable to the dictates of reason and nature ; which are rules not variable and changeable . there must be some new distinction to reconcile these things , which i cannot at present think of . that which i would enquire from hence is , whether the magistrates have power over the consciences of men in reference unto those things in morality , whose rules of good and evil are of an eternal obligation . that he hath not is evidently implyed in this place . and i shall not enter into the confusion of the ensuing discourse , where the latter sort of rules for vertue , the other member of the distinction , are turned into various methods of executing laws about outward acts of vertue or vice ; and the vertues themselves into outward expressions and significations of duty ; for i have at present no contest with this author about his manner of writing , nor do intend to have . it is enough that here at once all the principal and most important vertues are vindicated to their own unalterable rules as such , and the consciences of men in reference unto them put under another jurisdiction . and what then becomes of this argument , that the magistrate must have power over the consciences of men in matters of divine worship , because he hath so in things moral which are of greater importance , when what is so of importance , is exempted from his power . hence it sufficiently , appears that the authority of the magistrate over men , with reference unto moral vertue and duty , doth not respect vertue as vertue , but hath some other consideration . now what this is , is evident unto all . how moral vertues do belong unto religion and are parts of it , hath been before declared . but god who hath ordered all things in weight and measure , hath fore-designed them also to another end and purpose . for preparing mankind for political society in the world among themselves for a time , as well as for religious obedience unto himself , he inlayed his nature and composition with principles suited to both those ends , and appointed them to be acted with different respects unto them . hence moral vertues notwithstanding their peculiar tendency unto him , are appointed to be the instrument and ligament of humane society also . as the law of moses had in it a typical end , use , and signification , with respect to christ and the gospel , and a political use as the instrument of the government of the nation of the jews . now the power of the magistrate in respect of moral vertues , is in their latter use ; namely , as they relate to humane policy , which is concerned in the outward actings of them . this therefore is granted ; and we shall enquire farther whether any more be proved , namely , that the magistrate hath power over the outward actings of vertue and vice , so far as humane society or publick tranquility is concerned in them , and on that account . secondly , it may be enquired what is the power and authority over moral vertues , which is here ascribed unto the civil magistrate , and over the consciences of men , with respect unto them . is it such as to make that to be vertue which was not vertue before , or which was vice , and oblige men in conscience to practise it as vertue ? this would go a great way indeed , and answer somewhat of what is , or as it is said , may be done in the worship of god , when that is made a part of it which was not so before . but what name shall these new vertues be called by ? a new vertue both as to its acts and objects , will as much fly the imaginations of men , as a sixth sense doth . it may be our author will satisfie us as to this enquiry ; for he tells us , pag. 80. that he hath power to make that a particular of the divine law , that god hath not made so . i wish he had declared himself how , and wherein ; for i am afraid this expression as here it lyes , is offensive . the divine law is divine , and so is every particular of it● ; and how a man can make a thing divine , that is not so of it self , nor by divine institution , is hard to find out . it may be that only the subject matter of the law , and not the law it self formally is intended ; and to make a thing a particular of the divine law , is no more but to make the divine law require , that in particular of a man which it did not require of him before . but this particular , referrs to the nature , essence and being of the thing , or to the acting , and occasion of it in particular . and if it be taken in the latter sense , here is no more ascribed unto the magistrate , than is common with him to every man in the world. for every one that puts himself into new circumstances , or new relations , doth so make that unto him to be a particular of the divine law , which was not so before ; for he is bound and obliged unto the actual performance of many duties , which as so circumstantiated , he was not bo●●● unto before . but somewhat else seems to be intend●● from the ensuing discourse ; they are fully empowred to declare new instances of vertue and vice , and to introduce new duties in th● most important parts of religion . and y●● i am still at the same loss . for by his declaring new instances of vertue and vice , suppose he intends an authoritative declaration , such as that they have no other foundation , nor need none to make them what they are . they are new instances of vertue and vice , because so declared . and this suits unto the introducing of new duties in the most important parts of religion , made duties by that introduction . i wish i could yet learn what these new instances of vertue and vice are , or mean. whether they are new as vertues and vices , or as instances . for the first , would i could see a new practice of old virtues ; but to tell you the truth , i care not for any of the new vertues , that i have lately observed in the world ; nor do i hope ever to see any better new ones . if it be the instances that are new , i wish again i knew what were more in them , than the actual and occasional exercise of old duties . pag. 79 , 80. conduce most to extricate us out of these ambiguities . there we are informed , that the laws of every nation do distinguish and settle mens rights , and properties , and that distinctly with respect whereunto , justice , that prime natural vertue , is in particular instances to be exercised . and pag. 84. it is further declared , that in the administration of justice , there may be great difference in the constitution of penalties and execution of men . this it seems is that which is aimed at ; the magistrate by his laws determines , whteher titius have set his hedge upon caius's ground ; and whether sempronius hath rightly conveyed his land or house , to his son , or neighbour , whereby what is just and lawfull in it self , is accommodated to the use of political society . he determines also how persons guilty of death shall be executed , and by whom , and in what manner ; whence it must needs follow that he hath power to assign new particulars of the divine law , to declare new bounds , or hedges , of right and wrong , which the law of god neither doth , nor can limit , or hath power over the consciences of men with respect to moral vertues ; which was to be demonstrated . let us lay aside these swelling expressions , and we shall find that all that can be ascribed unto the civil magistrate in this matter , is no more , than to preserve property and peace , by that rule and power over the outward actions of men , which is necessary thereunto . having made some enquiry into the termes of moral vertue and the magistrates power , it remains only that we consider what respect this case hath unto the consciences of men , with reference unto them . and i desire to know whether all mankind , be not obliged in conscience to the observation of all moral vertue , antecedently to the command or authority of the magistrate , who doth only inspect their observation of them as to the concerns of publick peace and tranquility . certainly if all moral vertue consists in living suitable to the dictates of reason , as we are told , and in a sense rightly , if the rule of them all and every one , which gives them their formal nature , be the law of our creation , which all mankind enter the world under an indispensable obligation unto , it cannot be denyed but that there is such an antecedent obligation on the consciences of men , as that inquired after . but the things mentioned are granted by our author ; nor can by any be denyed , without offering the highest outrage to scripture , reason , and the common consent of mankind . now if this obligation be thus on all men , unto all vertue as vertue , and this absolutely from the authority of god over them and their consciences , how comes an inferiour authority to interpose it self between that of god and their consciences , so immediately to oblige them . it is granted that when the magistrate commandeth and requireth the exercise of any moral duty , in a way suited unto publick good and tranquility , he is to be obeyed for conscience sake ; because he who is the lord of conscience doth require men to be obedient unto him , whereon they are obliged in conscience so to be . but if the things required of them be in themselves moral duties , as they are such , their consciences are obliged to observe and exercise them , from the command of god , and other obligation unto them as such , they neither have nor can have . but the direction and command for the exercise of them , in these and those circumstances , for the ends of publick . good whereunto they are directed , belongs unto the magistrate , who is to be obeyed . for as in things meerly civil , and which have nothing originally of morality in them , but secondarily only , as they tend to the preservation and welfare of humane society , which is a thing morally good , the magistrate is to be obeyed for conscience sake , and the things themselves as far as they partake of morality , come directly under the command of god which affects the conscience ; so in things that have an inherent and inseparable morality , and so respect god in the first place , when they come to have a civil sanction in reference to their exercise unto publick political good , that sanction is to be obeyed out of conscience ; but the antecedent obligation that was upon the conscience unto a due exercise of those duties , when made necessary by circumstances , is not superseded , nor any new one added thereunto . i know what is said , but i find not as yet what is proved from these things , concerning the uncontroleable and absolute power of the supream magistrate , over religion and the consciences of men . some things are added indeed here up and down , about circumstances of divine worship , and the power of ordering them by the magistrate , which though there may be some different conceptions about , yet they no way reach the cause under debate . but as they are expressed by our author , i know not of any one writer in and of the church of england , that hitherto hath so stated them , as they are by him . for he tells us pag. 85. that all rituals , ceremonies , postures and manners of performing the outward expressions of devotion , that are not chargeable with countenancing vice or disgracing the deity , are capable of being adopted into the ministeries of divine service , and are not exempted from being subject to the determinations of humane power . whether they are so or no , the magistrate i presume is to judge ; or all this flourish of words and concessions of power , vanish into smoak . his command of them binds the consciences of men to observe them , according to the principle under consideration . hence it must be absolutely in the power of every supream magistrate to impose on the christian subjects , a greater number of ceremonious observances in the worship of god , and those of greater weight than ever were laid upon the jews . for who knows not that under the names of rituals , ceremonies , postures , manners of performing all divine service , what a butrdensome heap of things are imposed in the roman church ; whereunto as far as i know a thousand more may be added , not chargeable in themselves with either of the crimes , which alone are allowed to be put in , in barr or plea against them . and whether this be the liberty whereunto jesus christ hath vindicated his disciples and church , is left unto the judgement of sober men . outward religious worship we know is to be performed by natural actions ; these have their circumstances , and those oft-times because of the publick concernments of the exercise of religion , of great importance . these may be ordered by the power , and according to the wisdome of those in authority . but that they should make so many things , as this assertion allows them to make to belong unto , and to be parts of the worship of god , whereof not one is enjoyned or required by him , and the consciences of men be thereby obliged unto their observance ; i do not believe , nor is it here at all proved . to close this discourse about the power of obliging the consciences of men ; i think our author grants that conscience is immediately obliged to the observation of all things that are good in themselves , from the law of our creation . such things as either the nature of god , or our own require from us , our consciences surely are obliged immediately by the authority of god to observe . nor can we have any dispensation for the non-performance of our duty , from the interposition of the commands and authority of any of the sons of men. for this would be openly and directly to set up men against god , and to advance them or their authority above him or his . things evidently deduced , and necessarily following the first principles and dictates of nature , are of the same kind with themselves , and have the authority of god no less enstamped on them than the other ; and in respect unto them , conscience cannot by vertue of inferiour commands , plead an exemption . things of meer revelation do remain ; and concerning them i desire to know , whether we are not bound to observe and do , whatever god in his revealed will commands us to observe and do , and to abstain from whatever he forbids , and this indispensably ? if this be denyed i will prove it with the same arguments whereby i can prove that there is a god , and that we are his creatures made to serve him ; for the reason of these things is inseparable from the very being of god. let this be granted , and ascribe what ye will , or please , or can , to the supream magistrate , and you shall not from me have the least contradiction . a survey of the third chapter . the third chapter entertains us with a magnificent grant of liberty of conscience . the very first paragraph asserts , a liberty of conscience in mankind over all their actions whether moral , or strictly religious . but lest this should prove a bedlam concession that might mischief the whole design in hand , it is delivered to the power of a keeper , who yet upon examination is no less wild and extravagant , than it self is esteemed absolutely to be . this is , that they have it as far as concerns their judgements , but not their practice ; that is ; they have liberty of conscience over their actions , but not their practices ; or over their practices , but not over their pratices . for upon tryal their actions and practices will prove to be the same . and i do not as yet well understand , what is this liberty of conscience over mens actions , is it to do , or not to do , as their consciences dictate to them ? this is absolutely denied , and opposed in the chap. it self . is it to judge of their actions as done , whether they be good or evil ? this conscience is at no liberty in . for it is determined to a judgment in that kind naturally , and necessarily , and must be so whilest it hath the light of nature , and word of god to regard , so far as a rule is capable of giving a measure and determination to things to be regulated by it ; that is ; its moral actings , are morally determined . what then this liberty of conscience over mens actions should be , where they can neither act freely according to their consciences what they are to do , nor abstain from what they are not to do , nor are at liberty to judge what they have done to be good or bad , i cannot divine . let us search after an explication of these things in the paragraph it self , whose contents are represented in the words mentioned . here we are told , that this liberty consists in mens thinking of things according to their own perswasion , and therein asserting the freedom of their judgements . i would be loth to think that this liberty of mens consciences over all their moral actions , should at first dash dwindle into a liberty in speculations ; that men may think what they will , opine as they please , in , and about things that are not to be brought into practice ; but yet as far as i can perceive , i must think so , or matters will come to a worse issue . but these things must be a little farther examined , and that very briefly . here is mention of liberty of conscience ; but what conscience is , or what that liberty is , is not declared . for conscience it is called sometimes the mind , sometimes the vnderstanding , sometimes opinion , sometimes described by the liberty of thinking , sometimes termed an imperious faculty , which things without much discourse , and more words , than i can now afford to use , are not reconcilable amongst themselves . besides , liberty is no proper●affection of the mind , or understanding . though i acknowledge the mind , and its actings to be naturally free from outward compulsion , or coaction ; yet it is capable of such a determination from the things proposed unto it , and the manner of their proposal , as to make necessary the elicitation of its acts. it cannot but judge that two and three make five . it is the will that is the proper seat of liberty ; and what some suppose to be the ultimate determination of the practical understanding , is indeed an act of the will. it is so if you speak of liberty naturally and morally , and not of state and condition , which are here confounded . but suppose what you will to be conscience , it is moral actions or duties that are here supposed to be the object of its actings . now what are , or can be the thoughts , or actings of the mind of man about moral actions , but about their vertue , or their vice , their moral good or evil ? nor is a conclusion of what is a mans own duty in reference to the practice of them , possibly to be separated from them . that then which is here asserted is , that a man may think , judge , or conceive such or such a thing to be his duty , and yet have thereby no obligation put upon him to perform it ; for conscience , we are informed , hath nothing to do beyond the inward thoughts of mens minds . to state this matter a little more clearly ; let us take conscience in the most usual acceptation of it , and that which answers the experience of every man that ever looks into the affairs and concerns within ; and so it is , the practical judgment that men make of themselves , and of their actions , or what they are to do , and what they are not to do , what they have done , or what they have omitted , with reference unto the judgement of god , at present declared in their own hearts , and in his word , and to be fully executed at the last day . for we speak of conscience as it is amongst christians , who acknowledge the word of god , and that for a double end ; first , as the rule of conscience it self ; secondly , as the declaration of the will of god , as to his approbation , or rejecting of what we do , or omit . suppose then , that a man make a judgment in his conscience , regulated by the word of god , and with respect unto the judgement of god concerning him , that such and such a thing is a duty , and whose performance is required of him ; i desire to know , whether any obligation be upon him from thence to act accordingly ? it is answered that the territory of conscience is confined unto mens thoughts , judgements and perswasions , and these are free , yea , no doubt ; but for outward actions there is no remedy , but they must be subject to the cognizance of humane laws , pag. 9. who ever doubted of it ? he that would have men so have liberty from outward actions , as not to have those actions cognoscible by the civil power , as to the end of publick tranquility , but to have their whole station firmed absolutely in the world upon the plea of conscience , would no doubt lay a foundation for confusion in all government . but what is this to the present enquiry , whether conscience lay an obligation on men , as regulated by the word of god , and respecting him , to practise according to its dictates ? it is true enough ; that if any of its practices do not please , or satisfy the magistrate , their authors must for ought i know , stand to what will follow , or ensue on them to their prejudice ; but this frees them not , from the obligation that is upon them in conscience unto what is their duty . this is that , which must be here proved , if any thing be intended unto the purpose of this author ; namely that notwithstanding the judgment of conscience concerning any duty , by the interposition of the authority of the magistrate to the contrary , there is no obligation ensues for the performance of that duty . this is the answer that ought plainly to be returned , and not a suggestion that outward actions must fall under the cognizance of the magistrate ; which none ever doubted of , and which is nothing to the present purpose ; unless he would have them to fall under the magistrates cognizance , as that his will should be the supream rule of them ; which i think he cannot prove . but what sense the magistrate will have of the outward actions , wherein the discharge of mans duty doth consist , is of another consideration . this therefore is the state of the present case applied unto religious worship . suppose the magistrate command such things in religion , as a man in his conscience guided by the word , and respecting god , doth look upon as vnlawful , and such as are evil , and sin unto him , if he should perform them ; and forbid such things in the worship of god , as he esteems himself obliged in conscience to observe as commands of christ ; if he may practise the things so commanded , and omit the things so forbidden , i fear he will find himself within doors continually at confession , saying with trouble enough ; i have done those things , which i ought not to have done , and i have left undone those things , which i ought to have done , and there is no health in me ; unless this author can prove that the commands of god respect only the minds of men ; but not their outward actions which are left unto the authority of the magistrate alone . if no more be here intended , but that whatever conscience may require of any , it will not secure them , but that when they come to act outwardly according to it , the civil magistrate may , and will consider their actions , and allow them , or forbid them according to his own judgement , it were surely a madness to deny it , as great , as to say the sun shineth not at noon day . if conscience to god be confined to thoughts , and opinions , and speculations about the general notions , and notices of things , about true and false , and unto a liberty of judging , and determining upon them what they are , whether they are so or no 〈◊〉 the whole nature and being of conscience , and that to the reason , sense , and experience of every man , is utterly overthrown . if conscience be allowed to make its judgement of what is good or evil , what is duty or sin , and no obligation be allowed to ensue from thence unto a suitable practice , a wide door is opened unto atheism , and thereby the subversion of all religion and government in the world . this therefore is the summ of what is asserted in this matter ; conscience according to that apprehension , which it hath of the will of god about his worship , ( whereunto we confine our discourse ) obligeth men to act , or forbear accordingly ; if their apprehensions are right and true , just and equal , what the scripture , the great rule of conscience doth declare and require , i hope none upon second thoughts will deny , but that such things are attended with a right unto a liberty to be practised , whilst the lord jesus christ is esteemed the lord of lords , and king of kings , and is thought to have power to command the observance of his own institutions . suppose these apprehensions to be such as may in some things , be they more or less , be judged not to correspond exactly with the great rule of conscience , yet supposing them also to contain nothing inconsistent with , or of a disturbing nature to civil society , and publick tranquillity , nothing that gives countenance to any vice , or evil , or is opposite to the principal truths and main duties of religion , wherein the minds of men in a nation do coalesce , nor carry any politick entangle●ments along with them ; and add thereunto the peaceableness of the persons posses● with those apprehensions , and the impossibility they are under to devest themselves of them , and i say natural right , justice , equity , religion , conscience , god himself in all , and his voice in the hearts of all unprejudiced persons , do require that neither the persons themselves , on the account of their consciences , have violence offered unto them , nor their practices in pursuit of their apprehensions , be restrained by severe prohibitions and penalties . but whereas the magistrate is allowed to judge , and dispose of all outward actions in reference to publick tranquility , if any shall assert principles , as of conscience , tending , or obliging unto the practice of vice , immorality , or sin , or to the disturbance of publick society , such principles being all notoriously judged by scripture , nature , the common consent of mankind , and inconsistent with the fundamental principles of humane polity , may be in all instances of their discovery and practice , coerced , and restrained . but plainly , as to the commands of conscience , they are of the same extent with the commands of god : if these respect only the inward man , or the mind , conscience doth no more ; if they respect outward actions , conscience doth so also . from the liberty of conscience , a proceed is made to christian liberty , which is said to be a duty , or priviledg founded upon the ( chimaerical ) liberty of conscience before granted . but these things stand not in the relation imagined ; liberty of conscience is of natural right , christian liberty is a gospel-priviledge , though both may be pleaded in bar of unwarrantable impositions on conscience . but these things are so described by our author , as to be confounded . for the christian liberty described in this paragraph , is either restrained to matters of pure speculation , wherein the mind of man is left entirely free to judge of the truth , and falsehood of things ; or as it regards things that fall under laws and impositions , wherein men are left intirely free to judge of them , as they are objects of meer opinion . now how this differs from the liberty of conscience granted before , i know not . and that there is some mistake in this description of christian liberty , need no other consideration to evince but this ; namely that christian liberty , as our author tells us , is a priviledge , but this is not so , being that which is equally common unto all mankind . this liberty is necessary unto humane nature , nor can it be divested of it , and so it is not a priviledge that includes a specialty in it . every man cannot but think what he thinks , and judge what he judgeth , and that when he doth so , whether he will or no ; for every thing when it is , and as it is , is necessary . in the use of what means they please , to guide , direct , and determine their thoughts , their liberty doth consist ; this is equal in all , and natural unto all . now this inward freedom of our judgements is , it seems , our christian liberty , consistent with any impositions upon men in the exercise of the worship of god , with an obligation on conscience , unto their use and practice ; a liberty indeed of no value , but a meer aggravation of bondage ; and these things are further discoursed , sect. 3. pag. 95. wherein we are told , that this prerogative of our christian liberty , is not so much any new favour granted in the gospel , as the restauration of the mind of man to its natural priviledge , by exempting us from the yoke of the ceremonial lam , whereby things in themselves indifferent were tyed upon the conscience with as indispensable an obligation , as the rule of essential goodness , and equitys during the whole period of mosaick dispensation ; which being corrected by the gospel , those indifferent things , that have been made necessary by a divine positive command , returned to their own nature to be used , or omitted , only as occasion should direct . it is true , that a good part of our christian liberty , consists in our deliverance from the yoke of mosaical institutions ; but that this is not so much a new favour granted in the gospel , as the restauration of the mind of man to its natural priviledge , is an insertion that runs parallel with many others in this discourse . this priviledge , as all others of the gospel are , is spiritual , and its outward concerns , and exercise , are of no value , where the mind is not spiritually made free by christ. and it is uncertain what is meant by the restauration of the mind to its natural priviledge ; if the priviledge of the mind in its condition of natural purity is intended , as it was before the entrance of sin , it is false ; if any priviledge , the mind of man in its corrupt depraved condition is capable of , be designed , it is no less untrue . in things of this nature , the mind in that condition is in bondage , and not capable of any liberty ; for it is a thing ridiculous , to confound the meer natural liberty of our wills , which is an affection inseparable from that faculty , with a moral , or spiritual liberty of mind , relating unto god and his worship . but this whole paragraph runs upon no small mistake ; namely that the yoke of mosaical institutions , consisted in their imposition on the minds , and judgments of men , with an opinion of the antecedent necessity of them . for although the words recited , things in themselves indifferent , were tyed upon the conscience with as indispensable an obligation as the rules of essential goodness and equity , may be restrained to their use , exercise , and observation ; yet the conclusion of it , that whatever our superiours impose upon us , whether in matters of religious worship , or any other duties of morality , there neither is , nor can be any intrenchment upon our christian liberty , provided it be not imposed with an opinion of antecedent necessity of the thing it self , with the whole scope of the argument insisted on , makes it evident to be the sense intended . but this is wide enough from the mark ; the jews were never obliged , to judge the whole systeme of their legal institutions , to be any way necessary , antecedent unto their institution and appointment ; nor were they obliged to judge their intrincsik nature changed by their institution , only they knew they were obliged to their constant , and indispensable practice , as parts of the worship of god , instituted and commanded by him , who hath the supream authority over their souls and consciences . there was indeed a bondage frame of spirit upon them in all things , especially in their whole worship of god , as the apostle paul several times declares . but this is a thing of another nature , though our delivery from it , be also a part of christian liberty . this was no part of their inward , no more than their outward bondage , that they should think , believe , judge or esteem the things themselves enjoyned them , to be absolutely of any other nature , than they were ; had they been obliged unto any such judgement of things , they had been obliged to deceive themselves , or to be deceived ; but by the absolute authority of god , they were indispensibly bound in conscience to the actual observance , and continual use of such a number of ceremonies , carnal ordinances , and outward observances , as being things in themselves low , and mean , called by the apostle beggerly elements , and enjoyned with so great strictness , and under so severe penalties , many of them , of excision , or extermination from among the people , as became an intolerable , and insupportable yoke unto them . neither doth the apostle peter dispute about a judgement of their nature , but the necessity of their observation , when he calls them a yoke , which neither they , nor their fathers were able to bear , acts 15. 10. and when st. paul gives a charge to believers , to stand fast in the liberty , wherewith christ hath made them fres , it is with respect unto the outward observation of mosaical rites , as by him instituted , and not as to any inward judgment of their minds concerning their nature , antecedent unto that institution . his whole disputation on that subject , respects only mens practice , with regard unto an authoritative obligation thereunto , which he pleaded to be now expired , and removed . and if this christian liberty , which he built and proceeded upon , be of force to free , not our minds from the judgement that they had before of things in themselves , but our persons from the necessary practice , and observance of things instituted of god , however antecedently indifferent in themselves ; i think it is , at least , of equal efficacy , to exempt us from the necessary practice of things imposed on us in the worship of god , by men . for , setting aside the inequality of the imposing authority , which casts the advantage on the other side , ( for these legal institutions were imposed on the church by god himself , those now intended are such matters , as our superiours of themselves impose on us in religious worship ) the case is absolutely the same ; for as god did not give the law of commandment's contained in ordinances unto the jews , from the goodness of things required therein , antecedent to his command , which should make them necessary to be practised by them for their good ; but did it of his own soveraign arbitrary will and pleasure ; so he obliged not the people themselves unto any other judgement of them , but that they were necessarily to be observed ; and setting aside the consideration of his command , they were things in their own nature altogether indifferent ; so is it in the present case ; it is pleaded that there is no imposition on the minds , consciences , or judgements of men , to think or judge otherwise of what is imposed on them , than as their nature is , and doth require ; only they are obliged unto their usage , observance , and practice ; which is to put us into a thousand times worse condition than the jews , if instances of them should be multiplyed , as they may lawfully 〈◊〉 every year ; seeing it much more quiet● the mind ; to be able to resolve its thought● immediately into the authority of go● under its yoke , than into that of man. i● therefore we are freed from the one by our christian liberty , we are so much more from the other ; so , as that being made free by christ , we should not be the servants of men , in things belonging to his service and worship . from this discovery here made of the nature of christian liberty , our author makes some deductions , p. 98 , 99. concerning the nature of religious worship , wherein he tells us , that the whole substance of religious worship is transacted within the mind of man , and dwells in the heart , and thoughts , the soul being its proper seat , and temple , where men may worship their god as they please , without offending their prince ; and that external worship is no part of religion it self . i wish he had more clearly , and distinctly expressed his mind in this matter ; for his assertions , in the sense the words seem to bear , are prodigiously false , and such as will open a door to atheism with all villany and confusion in the world. for who would not think this to be his intention ; let men keep their minds and inward thoughts , and apprehensious right for god , and then they may practise outwardly in religion what they please ; one thing one day , another another ; be papists and protestants , arians and homousians ; yea mahometans and christians ; any thing , every thing , after the manner of the country , and laws of the prince , where they are , and live ; the rule that ecebolius walked by of old ? i think there is no man , that owns the scripture , but will confess that this is , at least , if not a direct , yet an interpretative rejection of the whole authority of god. and may not this rule be quickly extended unto oaths themselves , the bonds and ligaments of humane society ? for whereas in their own formal nature they belong to the worship of god , why may not men pretend to keep up their reverence unto god , in the internal part of them , or their esteem of him in their invocation of his name , but as to the outward part , accommodate it unto what by their interest is required of them ; so swearing with their tongues , but keeping their mind at liberty ? if the principles laid down be capable of any other more tolerable sense , and such as may be exclusive of these inferences , i shall gladly admit it ; at present what is here deduced from them , seems to be evidently included in them . it is true indeed , that natural , moral , or internal worship , consisting in faith , love , fear , thankfulness , submission , dependance , and the like , hath its constant seat , and residence in the souls , and minds of men ; but that the wayes whereby these principles of it are to be outwardly exercised , and expressed , by gods command and appointment , are not also indispensably necessary unto us , and parts of his worship , is utterly false . that which principally in the scripture , comes under the notion of the worship of god , is the due observance of his outward institutions ; which divines have upon unquestionable grounds , contended to be commanded and appointed in general in the second commandment of the decalogue , whence all particular institutions in the several seasons of the church , are educed , and resolved into the authority of god therein expressed . and that account which we have here given us of outward worship , namely , that it is no part of religion it self , but only an instrument to express the inward veneration of the mind , by some outward action or posture of the body , as it is very difficultly to be accommodated unto the sacrifices of old , or the present sacraments of the church , which were , and are parts of outward worship , and , as i take it , of religion ; so the being an instrument unto the purpose mentioned , doth not exclude any thing from being also a part of religion , and worship it self , if it be commanded by god to be performed in his service , unto his glory . it is pretended that all outward worship is only an exteriour signification of honour ; but yet all the parts of it in their performance , are acts of obedience unto god , and are the proper actings of faith , love , and submission of soul unto god , which if they are not his worship , and parts of religion , i know not what may be so esteemed . let then outward worship , stand in what relation it will to inward spiritual honour , where god requires it , and commands it , it is no less necessary and in dispensably to be performed , than any part of inward worship it self , and is a no less important duty of religion . for any thing comes to be a part of religious worship outwardly to be performed , not from its own nature , but from its respect unto the command of god ; and the end whereunto it is by him designed . so the apostle tells us that with the heart man believeth unto righteousness , and with the mouth confession is made un● salvation , rom. 10. confession is but the exteriour signification of the faith , that is i● our hearts ; but yet it is no less necessary to salvation , than faith it self is to righteousness . and those , who regulate their obedience , and religious worship by the commands of god , knowing that which way ever they are signified , by inbred light , or superadded revelation , it is they which give their obedience its formal nature , making it religious , will not allow that place and use of the outward worship required by god himself , which should exclude it from being religious , or a part of their religion . but upon the whole matter our author affirms , that in all ages of the world , god hath left the management of his outward worship unto the discretion of men , unless when to determine some particulars hath been usefull to some other purpose , pag. 100. the management of outward worship , may signifie no more but the due performance of it ; and so i acknowledge that though it be not left unto mens discretion to observe , or not observe it , yet it is too their duty and obedience , which are their discretion and their wisdom . but the management here understood , is opposed to gods own determination of particular forms , that is , his especial institutions ; and hereof i shall make bold to say , that it was never in any age so left to the discretion of men . to prove this assertion , sacrifices are singled out as an instance ; it is known , and granted , that these were the most solemn part of the outward worship of god for many ages ; and that there was a general consent of mankind unto the use of them ; so that however the greatest part of the world apostatized from the true , only , and proper object of all religious worship , worship , yet they retained this mode and medium of it . these sacrifices we are told , p. 101. did not owe their original unto any divine institution , but were made choice of by good men as a fit way of imitating the gratefull resentments of their minds . the argument alone , as far as i can find , fixed on to firm this assertion is , that those who teach the contrary , and say that this mode of worship was commanded , do say so without proof , or evidence . our author , for the most part , sets off his assertions at no less rate than as such , without whose admittance , all order , and government , and almost every thing that is good amongst mankind , would be ruined and destroyed . but he hath the unhappiness to found them ordinarily not only on principles , and o●●nions dubious , and uncertain ; but on su●● paradoxes , as have been by sober and lear●●ed men generally decried . such is this 〈◊〉 the original of sacrifices here insisted o● the divines of the church of rome , do g●●nerally contend that religion and sacrific● are so related , that the one cannot be with●out the other . hence they teach go● would have required sacri●ices in the st● of innocency , had mankind continued therein . and though the instance be ill laid and not proved , yet the general rule applyed unto the religion of sinners , is no● easily to be evicted . for as in christian religion we have a sacrifice that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as to its efficacy , alwayes newly offered , and living ; so before the personal offering of it in the body of chirst , there was no season or age , without a due representation of it in sacrifices typical , and of mystical signification . and although there be no express mention in the scripture of their institution , ( for these are ancient things ) yet there is as good warrant for it , as for offering , and burning incense only with sacred fire taken from the altar , which was of an heavenly traduction ; for a neglect whereof the priests were consumed with fire from before the lord ; that is , though an express command be not recorded for their institution and observation , yet enough may be collected from the scripture that they were of a divine extract , and original . and if they were arbitrary inventions of some men , i desire to have a rational account given me of their catholicism in the world ; and one instance more of any thing not natural , or divine , that ever prevailed to such an absolute universal acceptance amongst mankind . it is not so safe , i suppose , to assign an arbitrary original , unto any thing that hath obtained an universal consent and suffrage ; lest men be thought to set their own houses on fire , on purpose to consume their neighbours . besides , no tolerable colour can be given to the assertion , that they were the invention of good men . the first notice we have of them , is , in those of cain and abel , whereof one was a bad man , and of the evil one , and yet must be looked on as the principal inventor of sacrifices , if this fiction be allowed . some of the antients indeed thought , that adam sacrificed the beasts to god , whose skins his first garments were made of ; and if so , he was very pregnant and sudden in his invention , if he had no direction from god. but more than all this , bloody sacrifices were types of christ from the foundation of the world ; and socinus himself , who , and his followers are the principal assertors of this paradox , grants that christ is called the lamb of god , with respect unto the sacrifices of old , even before the law ; as he is termed a lamb slain from the foundation of the world , not only with respect unto the efficacy of his sacrifice but to the typical representation of it . and he that shall deny , that the patriarchs in their sacrifices had respect unto the promised seed , will endeavour the shaking of a pillar of the churches creed . now i desire to know how men , by their own invention , or authority , could assign such an end unto their sacrifices , if they were not of divine prescription , if not designed of god thereunto . again ; the apostle tells us , abel offered his sacrifice by faith , heb. 11. 4. and faith hath respect unto the testimony or god , revealing , commanding , and promising to accept our duty . wherever any thing is done in faith , there an assent is included to this , that god is true , joh. 3. 33. and what it doth , is thereby distinguished from will-worship , that is resolved into the commandments , and doctrines of men , which whoso rest on , make void the commandment of god , matth. 15. 3 , 6. and the faith of abel as to its general nature was the evidence of things not seen , and the substance of things hoped for , heb. 11. 1. which in this matter it could not be , if it had neither divine command , nor promise to rest upon . it is evident therefore that sacrifices were of a divine original ; and the instance in them to prove , that the outward worship of god hath in all ages been left unto the prudence , and management of men , is feeble , and such as will give no countenance unto what it is produced in the justification of ; and herewith the whole discourse of our author on this subject falls to the ground , where i shall at present let it lye , though it might in sundry particulars be easily crumbled into useless asseverations , and some express contradictions . in the close of this chapter , an application is made , of what hath been before argued , or rather dictated , unto a particular controversie about significant ceremonies . i am not willing to engage in any contests of that nature ; seeing , to the due handling of them , a greater length of discourse would be necessary , than i think meet at present to draw forth this survey unto . only seeing a very few words , may serve to manifest the loosness of what is here discoursed , to that purpose , i shall venter on the patience of the reader wit● an addition of them . we have therefore in the first place , a reflection on the prodigious impertinency of the clamour against th● institution of significant ceremonies , when i● is the only use of ceremonies , as all other outward expressions of religion , to be significan● . i do somewhat admire at the temper of this author , who cannot express his disser●● from others , in controverted points of the meanest and lowest concernment , but with crying out prodigies , clamours , impertinencies , and the like expressions of astonishment in himself , and contempt of others . he might reserve some of these great words for more important occasions . but yet i joyn with him thus fa● in what he pleads ; that ceremonies instituted in the worship of god , that art not significant , are things very insignificant ; and such as deserve not the least contention about them . he truly also in the next words tells us , that all outward worship is a sign of inward honour . it is so ; both in civil things , and sacred . all our questionis , how these instituted ceremonies come to be significant , and what it is they signifie , and whether it be lawful to assign a significancy to them in the worship of god , when indeed they have none , of the kind intended ? to free us from any danger herein he informs us , p. 108. that all the magistrates power of instituting significant ceremonies , amounts to no more , than a power of determining what shall , or what shall not , be visible signs of honour , and this can be no vsurpation upon the consciences of men . this is new language , and such as we have not formerly been used unto in the church of england ; namely , that of the magistrates instituting significant ceremonies ; it was of old , the churches appointing ceremonies for decency and order . but all the terms of that assertion are now metamorphosed ; the church into the magistrates ; appointing , which respects exercise , into institution , which respects the nature of the thing , and hath a singular use and sense in this matter ( or let them pass for the same ) and order and decency , into ceremonies significant . these things were indeed implyed before , but not so fully and plainly expressed or avowed . but the honour here intended in this matter , is the honour , which is given to god in his worship . this is the honour of faith , love , fear , obedience spiritual , and holy , in jesus christ. to say that the magistrate hath power to institute visible signs of this honour , to be observed in the outward worship of god , is upon the matter to say that he hath power to institute new sacraments ; for so such things would be . and to say what neither is , nor can be proved , nor is here either logically , or any way regularly , attempted so to be . the compiring of the ceremonies and their signification , with words and their signification , will not relieve our author in this matter . some things are naturally significant of one another ; so effects are of causes ; so is smoke of fire ; and such were the signes of the weather mentioned by our saviour , matth. 16. 2 , 3. thus i suppose ceremonies are not significant ; they do not naturally signifie the things whereunto they are applyed ; for if they did , there would be no need of their institution . and they are here said to be instituted by the magistrate . again ; there are customary signes , some it may be catholick , many topical , that have prevailed by custome , and usage , to signifie such things , as they have no absolute natural coherence with , or relation unto ; such are putting off the hat in sign of reverence , with others innumerable . and both these sorts of signs , may have some use about the service , and worship of god , as might be manifested in instances . but the signes we enquire after , are voluntary , arbitrary and instituted as our author confesseth ; for we do not treat of appointing some ceremonies for order and decency , which our canons take notice of , but of instituting ceremonies for signification , such as neither naturally , nor meerly by custome and usage , come to be significant , but only by vertue of their institution . now concerning these one rule may be observed ; namely , that they cannot be of one kind , and signifie things of another , by vertue of any command , and consent of men , unless they have an absolute authority both over the sign , and thing signified , and can change their natures , or create a new relation between them . to take therefore things natural , that are outward , and visible , and appoint them to be signs not natural , nor civil , nor customary , but mystical of things spiritual , supernatural , inward , and invisible , and , as such , to have them observed in the church , or worship of god , is a thing which is not as yet proved to be lawfull ; signifie thus naturally they never can , seeing there is no natural relation between them ; civilly , or by consent they do not so ; for they are things sacred , which they are supposed to signifie ; and are so far from signifying by consent , that those , who plead for their signification , do not agree wherein it doth consist . they must therefore signifie so mystically , and spiritually ; and signa , cum ad res divinas pertinent , sunt sacramenta , sayes austin ; these things are sacraments ; and when men can give mystical , and spiritual efficacy to any of their own institutions ; when they can make a relation between such signes , and the things signified by them ; when they can make that teaching , and instructing in spiritual things , and the worship of god , which he hath not made so , nor appointed , blessed , or consecrated to that end ; when they can bind gods promises of assistance , and acceptance to their own inventions ; when they can advance what they will into the same rank , and series of things in the worship of god , with the sacrifices of old , or other parts of instituted worship introduced into the church by gods command , and attended with his promise of gracious acceptance , then and not before may they institute the significant ceremonies here contended for . words , it is true , are signs of things ; and those of a mixed nature ; partly natural , partly by consent . but they are not of one kind , and signi●ie things of another ; for , say the schoolmen , where words are signs of sacred things , they are signs of them as things , but not as sacred . a survey of the fourth chapter . in the fourth chapter we have no concern ; the hypothesis whose confutation he hath undertaken , as it is in it self false , so it is rather suited to promote what he aims at , than what he opposeth ; and the principles which himself proceedeth on , do seem to some to border on , if not to be borrowed from his , and those which are here confuted . and thence it is that the foundations , which he layes down in the entrance of this discourse , are as destructive of his own pretensions , as of those , against which they are by himself improved . for it is granted , and asserted by him , that there are actions , and duties in , and about which , the consciences of men are not to be obliged by humane authority , but have an antecedent obligation on them from the authority of god himself ; so that disobedience unto the contrary commands of humane authority is no sin , but an indispensible duty ; and although he seems at first to restrain things of this nature , unto things natural , and of an essential rectitude ; that is , the prime dictates of the law of nature ; yet he expresly extends it i● instances , unto the belief of the truth of th● gospel , which is a matter of meer and purr revelation : and hereon he adds , the formall , and adequate reason of this exemption of conscience from humane authority , and i● obligation unto duty , before its consideration without it , and against it , which is , not because subjects are in any thing free from the authority of the supream power on earth , but because they are subject to a superiour i● heaven , and they are then only excused from the duty of obedience to their soveraign , when they cannot give it without rebellion against god ; so that it is not originally any right of their own , that exempts them from a subjection to the soveraign power in all things , but it is purely gods right of governing his own creatures , that magistrates then invade , when they make edicts to violate , or controll his laws . it is about religion , and the worship of god that we are discoursing ; now in these things no man ever thought that it was originally a right of subjects , as subjects , abstracting from the consideration of the authority of god , that should exempt them from a subjection to the soveraign power . for though some of the antients discourse at large , that it is of natural right and equity , that every one should worship god as he would himself , yet they founded this equity in the nature of god , and the authority of his commands . this exemption then ariseth merely , as our author observes , because they are subject to a superiour power in heaven , which excuseth them from the duty of obedience to their superiours on earth , when they cannot give it without rebellion against god ; whence it undeniably follows that that supream power in heaven hath exempted these things from all inferiour powers on earth . extend this now unto all things wherein men have , and ought to have a regard unto that superiour power in heaven , as it must be extended , or the whole is ridiculous , ( for that heavenly supremacy is made the formall reason of the exemption here granted , ) and all that our author hath been so earnestly contending for in the preceeding chapters , falls to the ground . for no man pleads exemption from subjection unto , yea from giving active obedience unto the authority , and commands of the magistrate , even in things religious , but merely on the account of his subjection to the authority of god heaven ; and , where this is so , he is set● liberty by our author from all contra● commands of men . this is bellarmine's 〈◊〉 tissimum est , which , as king james obse●ved , overthrows all , that he had contened for in his five books de justificatione . a survey of the fifth chapter . the fifth chapter is at such variance with it self , and what is elsewhere dictated in the treatise , that it would require no small labour , to make any tollerable composition of things between them . this i shall not engage in , as not being of my present concernment . what seems to tend unto the carrying on of the design of the whole , may be called unto some account . in the beginning of it , he tells us that a belief of the indifferency or rather imposture of all religions ; is made the most effectual , not to say the most fashionable argument for liberty of conscience . for my part , i never read , i never heard of this pretence or argument , to be used to that purpose . it wants no such defence . nay the principle it self , seems to me , to be suited directly to oppose and overthrow it . for if there be no such thing in reality as religion in the world , it is certainly a very foolish thing , to have differences perpetuated amongst men upon the account of conscience , which without a supposition of religion , is nothing but a vain and empty name : but hence our author takes occasion , to discourse of the use of religion and conscience in the government of affairs in the world ; and proves in many words , that conscience unto god , with a regard to future eternal rewards or punishments , is the great ligament of humane society , the security of government , the strongest bond of laws , and only support of rule , without which every man would first and last , be guided by mere self interest , which would reduce all power and authority to meer force and violence . to this purpose doth he discourse at large in one section of this chapter ; and in another , with no less earnestness and elegancy of words , and repetition of various expressions of the same signification , that the use and exercise of conscience , will certainly overthrow all government , and fill the world with confusion . in like manner , whereas we have been hither● throughly instructed , as i thought , tha● men may think what they will in the matters of religion , and be of what perswai●● they please , no man can or ought to control● them therein ; here we are told , that 〈◊〉 power , nor policy , can keep men peaceable , untill some perswasions are rooted out of thei● minds by severity of laws and penalties , pag● 145. and whereas heretofore , we wer● informed , that men might believe what the● would , princes were concerned only i● their outward practice ; now are we assured , that above all things , it concerns princes to look to the doctrines and articles of men● belief , p. 147. but these things , as was before intimated , are not of our concern . nor can i find much of that importance● in the third and fourth paragraphs of this declamatory invective . it is evident whom he regards and reflects upon , and with what false , unmanly , unchristian revilings , he indeavours to traduce them . he would have the world believe , that there is a generation of men , whose principles of religion teach them to be proud , peevish , malicious , spightful , envious , turbulent , boysterous , seditious , and what ever is evil in the world ; when others are all for candour , moderation and ingenuity ; amongst whom no doubt he reckons himself for one , and gives in this discourse in evidence thereof . but what are these doctrines and articles of mens belief , which dispose them inevitably to all the villanies that our author could find names for . a catalogue of them he gives us , pag. 147 , 148. saith he , what if they believe that princes are but the executioners of the decrces of the presbitery ; and that in case of disobedience to their spiritual governours , they may be excommunicated , and by consequence deposed ? what if they believe that dominion is founded in grace , and therefore all wicked kings forfeit their crowns , and that it is in the power of the people of god to bestow them where they please ? and what if others believe that to pursue their successes in villany and rebellion is to follow providence ? all the world knows what it is , that hath given him the advantage of providing a covering , for these monstrous fictions ; and an account thereof hath been given elsewhere . and what now if those intended do not believe these things , nor any one of them ? what if they do openly disavow every one of them , as for ought i ever heard or know they do , and as i do my self ? what if some of them , are ridiculously framed into articles of faith , from the supposed practices of some individual persons ? and what if men be of never so vile● opinions about the pursuit of their successes , so they have none to countenance them i● any unlawful enterprises , which i think must go before successes ? what if only the papists be concerned in these articles of faith ; and they only in one of them about the excommunication and deposition of princes , and that only some of them ; and not one of those have any concern in them , whom he intends to reproach ? i say if these things are so , we need look no farther for the principles of that religion , which hath furnished him with all this candor , moderation and ingenuity , and hath wrought him to such a quiet and peaceable temper , by teaching him that humility , charity and meekness , which here bewray themselves let it be granted , as it must and ought to be , that all principles of the minds of men , pretended to be from apprehensions of religion , that are in themselves inconsistent with any lawful government , in any place what ever , ought to be coerced , and restrained . for our lord jesus christ , sending his gospel to be preached and published in all nations and kingdoms of the world , then , and at all times , under various sorts of governments , all for the same end of publick tranquility and prosperity , did propose nothing in it , but what a submission and obedience unto , might be consistent with the government it self , of what sort soever it were . he came , as they used to sing of old , to give men an heavenly kingdom , and not to deprive them , or take from them their earthly temporal dominions . there is therefore nothing more certain , than that there is no principle of the religion taught by jesus christ , which either in it self , or in the practice of it , is inconsistent with any righteous government on the earth . and if any opinions can truly and really be manifested so to be , i will be no advocate for them , nor their abettors . but such as these , our author shall never be able justly to affix on them whom he opposeth ; nor the least umbrage of them ; if he do but allow the gospel , and the power of christ to institute those spiritual ordinances , and requiring their administration , which do not , which cannot extend unto any thing wherein a magistrate as such , hath the least concernment in point of prejudice . for if on a false , or undue practice of them , any thing should be done , that is not purely spiritual , or that being done , should be esteemed to operate upon any of outward concerns , relations , interest● occasions of men , they may be restrain by the power of him who presides o● publick good . but besides these pretences , our a●thor i know not how , chargeth also the ●●mours , inclinations and passions of some me● as inconsistent with government , and a●wayes disposing men to phanaticisme and ●●dition ; and on occasion thereof falls out to an excess of intemperance in reproa●●ing them whom he opposet● , such as 〈◊〉 have not above once or twice before 〈◊〉 with the like . and in particular he ra● about that zeal , as he calls it , for the g●●ry of god , which hath turned whole natio● into shambles , filled the world with bute●ries and massacres , and fleshed it self wi●● slaughters of miriads of mankind . no● omitting all other controversies , i sha●● undertake to maintain this against any m●● in the world , that the effects here so tr●gically expressed , have been produced 〈◊〉 the leal our author pleads for , in co●pelling all unto the same sentiments and pr●●ctices in religion , incomparably abo● what hath ensued upon any other pretenc● in or about religion , what ever . this neel require , i shall evince with such in●stances , from the entring of christianity into the world to this very day , as will admit of no competition with all those together , which on any account or pretence have produced the like effects . this it was , and is , that hath soaked the earth with blood , depopulated nations , ruined families , countrys , kingdoms , and at length made innumerable christians rejoyce in the yoke of turkish tyranny , to free themselves from their perpetual persecutions , on the account of their dissent from the worship publickly established in the places of their nativity . and as for the humours , inclinations , and passions of men , when our author will give such rules and directions , as whereby the magistrate may know how to make a true and legal judgement , of who are fit on their account , to live in his territories , and who are not , i suppose there will not be any contest about them ; until then , we may leave them as here displayed and set up by our author , for every one to cast a cudgel at them , that hath a mind thereunto . for to what purpose is it to consider the frequent occasions he takes , to diseourse about the ill tempers and humours of men , or of enveighing against them for being morose , and ungentile , unsociable , peevish , censorious , with many other terms of reproach , that do not at present occur to my memory , nor are doubtless worth the searching after . suppose he hath the advantage of a better natural temper , have more sedate affections , a more complyant humour , be more remote from giving or receiving provocations , and have learned the wayes of courtly deportment , only was pleased to vail them all and every one , in the writing of this discourse ; is it meet that they should be persecuted and destroyed , be esteemed seditious and i know not what , because they are of a natural temper not so disposed to affability and sweetness of conversation as some others are ? for my part , i dislike the humour and temper of mind characterised by our author , it may be as much as he ; i am sure , i think , as much as i ought . but to make it a matter of such huge importance , as solemnly to introduce it into a discourse about religion , and publick tranquility , will not it may be , on second thoughts , be esteemed over considerately done . and it is not unlikely , but that our author seems of as untoward a composition , and peevish an humour to them whom he reflects upon , as they do to him , and that they satisfie themselves as much in their disposition and deportment , as he doth himself in his . nimirum idem omnes fallimur , neque est quisquam quem non in aliqua re , videre suffenum possis — sect. 5. pag. 155 , 156. he inveighs against the events that attend the permission of different sects of religion in a common-wealth . and it is not denyed , but that some inconveniencies may ensue thereon . but as himself hath well observed in another place , we do not in these things enquire what is absolutely best , and what hath no inconvenience attending it ; but what is the best which in our present condition we can attain unto ; and what in that state answers the duty that god requireth of us . questionless , it were best that we should be all of one mind in these things of god ; and it is no doubt also our duty on all hands to endeavour so to be . but seeing de facto , this is not so , nor is it in the power of men , when and how they wil to depose those perswasions of their minds , and dictates of their consciences , from whence it is not so , on the one part or the other ; ( although in some parts of our differences , some may do so and will not , namely in things acknowledged to be of no necessity antecedent to their imposition ; and some would do so and cannot , ) it is now enquired , what is the best way to be steer'd in , for the accomplishment of the desired end of peace and tranquility for the future ; and maintaining love , quietness and mutual usefulness at present amongst men . two ways are proposed to this purpose ; the one is to exercise mutual forbearance to each other , whilst we are inevitably under the power of different perswasions in these things , producing no practices that are either injurious unto private men in their rights , or hurtful unto the state , as to publick peace ; endeavouring in the mean time , by the evidence of truth , and a conversation suited unto it , to win upon each other to a consent and agreement in the things wherein we differ . the other is , by severe laws , penalties , outward force , as imprisonments , mulcts , fines , banishments , or capital punishments , to compell all men out of hand , to an uniformity of practice , whatever their judgements be to the contrary . now as the state of things is amongst us , which of these wayes is most suitable to the law of our being and creation , the best principles of the nature of man , and those which have the most evident resemblance of divine perfections , the gospel , the spirit and letter of it , with the mind of its author our lord jesus christ , which is most conducing to attain the end aimed at , in wayes of a natural and genuine complyance with the things themselves of religion , conscience , and divine worship , is left unto the judgement of god , and all good men . in the mean time , if men will make declamations upon their own surmises , jealousies , and suspitions of things which are either so indeed , that is really surmized , or pretended to be so for some private interests or advantages of their own , which no man can answer or remove ; if they may fancy at their pleasure ghosts , goblins , fiends , walking sprights , seditions , drums , trumpets , armies , bears , and tigers ; every difference in religion , be it never so small , be the agreement amongst them that differ , never so great , be it the visible , known , open interest of them that dissent from what is established , to live quietly and peaceably , and to promote the good of the commonwealth wherein they live ; do they profess that it is their duty , their principle , their faith , and doctrine , to obey constantly their rulers and governours in all things , not contrary to the mind of god , and pretend no such commands of his , as should interfere in the least with their power in order to publick tranquility ; do they offer all the security of their adherence to such declared principles , as mankind is necessitated to be contented and satisfied with , in things of their highest concernment ; do they avow an especial sense of the obligation that is put upon them by their rulers , when they are protected in peace ; have they no concernment in any such political societies , combinations , interests , as might alone give countenance unto any such disturbance ; all is one , every different opinion is press-money , and every sect is an army , although they be all and every one of them protestants , of whom alone we do discourse . other answer therefore i shall not return unto this part of our authors arguing , than what he gave of old . ne admittam culpam , ego meo sum promus pectori . suspicio est in pectore alieno sita . nam nunc ego te si surripuisse suspicer , jovi coronam de capite e capitolio , quod in culmine astat summo , st non id feceris ; atque id tamen mihi lubeat suspicarier ; qui tu id prohibere me potes , ne suspicer . only , i may add , that sundry of the instances our author makes use of , are false , and unduly alledged . for what is here charged on differences in and about religion , in reference unto publick tranquility , might have been , yea and was charged on christian religion for three hundred years , and is so by many still on protestancy as such ; and that it were a very easie and facile task , to set out the pernicious evills of a compelled agreement in the practice of religion , and those not fancied only or feigned , but such as do follow it , have followed it , and will follow it in the world . an enquiry in this invective , tending to evince its reasonableness is offered , in pag. 158. namely , where there are divided interests in religion in the same kingdom , it is asked how shall the prince behave himself towards them . the answer thereunto is not i confess easie , because it is not easie to be understood , what is intended by divided interests in religion . we will therefore lay that aside , and consider what really is amongst us , or may be according to what we understand by these expressions . suppose then , that in the same profession of protestant religion , some different way and observances in the outward worship of god should be allowed , and the persons concerned herein have no other , cannot be proved to have any other interest with respect unto religion , but to fear god and honour the king ; it is a very easie thing to return an answer to this enquiry . for not entring into the profound political speculation of our author , about ballancing of parties , or siding with this or that party , where the differences themselves constitute no distinct parties , in reference to civil government and publick tranquility ; let the prince openly avow by the declaration of his judgement , his constant practice , his establishing of legal rights , disposing of publick favours in places and preferments , that way of religion which himself owns and approves ; and let him indulge and protect others of the same religion , for the substance of it with what himself professeth , in the quiet and peaceable exercise of their consciences in the worship of god , keeping all dissenters within the bounds allotted to them , that none transgress them to the invasion of the rights of others ; and he may have both the reality , and glory of religion , righteousness , justice , and all other royal vertues which will render him like to him whose vice-gerent he is ; and will undoubtedly reap the blessed fruits of them , in the industry , peaceableness , and loyalty of all his subjects whatever . there are sundry things in the close of this chapter objected against such a course of proceedure ; but those such , as are all of them resolved into a supposition , that they who in any place or part of the world , desire liberty of conscience for the worship of god , have indeed no conscience at all . for it is thereon supposed without further evidence , that they will thence fall into all wicked and unconscientious practices . i shall make , as i said , no reply to such surmises . christianity suffered under them for many ages . protestancy hath done so in sundry places for many years . and those who now may do so , must as they did , bear the effects of them as well as they are able . only i shall say , first , whatever is of real inconvenience in this pretension , on the supposition of liberty of conscience , is no way removed by taking away all different practices , unless ye could also obliterate all different perswasions out of the minds of men ; which although in one place , tells us ought to be done by severe pe●ties , yet in another , he acknowledgeth th● the magistrate hath no cognizance of 〈◊〉 such things ; who yet alone is the inflicts● of all penalties . nay where different a● prehensions are , the absolute prohibition of different answerable practices , doth thousand times more dispose the minds 〈◊〉 men to unquietness , than where they 〈◊〉 allowed both together , as hath been before declared . and he that can oblitera● out of , and take away all different apprehensions and perswasions about the worship of god , from the minds and consciences of men , bringing them to center 〈◊〉 the same thoughts and judgements absolutely , in all particulars about them , dicendum est — deus ille fuit , deus incly● mem●●● qui princeps vitae rationem invenit eam ; — he is god and not man. secondly , it is granted , that the magistrate may , and ought to restrain all principles and outward practices , that have any natural tendency unto the disturbance of the peace ; which being granted , and all obligations upon dissenting parties being alone put upon them , by the supream legislative and executive power of the kingdoms and nations of the world , publick tranquility is , and will be as well secured on that respect , as such things are capable of security in this world . all the longsome discourse therefore which here ensues , wherein all the evils that have been in this nation , are charged on liberty of conscie●ce , from whence not one of them did proceed , seeing there was no such thing granted , until upon other civil and political accounts , the flood-gates were set open unto the following calamities and confusions , is of no use , nor unto any purpose at all . for until it can be demonstratively proved , that those who do actually suffer , and are freely willing so to do , ( as far as the foregoing , otherwise lawful advantages , open unto them as well as others , may be so called ) and resolved to undergo what may farther to their detriment , yea to their ruine be inflicted on them , to preserve their consciences entire unto some commands of god , have no respect unto others of as great evidence and light to be his , ( as are those which concern their obedience unto magistrates , compared with those which they avow about the worship of god ; ) and that private men , uninterested in , 〈◊〉 uncapable of any pretence unto publi● authority of any sort , do alwayes this themselves warranted to do such things●● others have done , pleading right and authority for their warranty ; and 〈◊〉 be made manifest also , that they have 〈◊〉 other or greater interest , than to enjoy the particular conditions and estates in peace and to exercise themselves in the worship of god according as they apprehend 〈◊〉 mind to be , these declamations are altogether vain , and as to any solid wor● lighter than a feather . and i could desire that if these controversies must be farther debated , that 〈◊〉 author would omit the pursuit of the things , which are really 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and according to the antient custom ●●tend 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , without rhetori●● prefaces , or unreasonable passions , unto the merit of the cause . to this purpose , 〈◊〉 suppose it might not be amiss for him , consider a few sheets of paper lately published , under the title of a case stated , & wherein he will find the main controversy reduced to its proper heads , and a mode provocation unto an answer to what proposed about it . — illum aspice contra qui vocat . a survey of the sixth chapter . the sixth chapter in this discourse , which is the last that at the present i shall call to any account , ( as being now utterly wearied with the frequent occurrence of the same things in various dresses ; ) is designed to the confutation of a principle , which is termed the foundation of all puritanism , and that wherein the mysterie of it consisteth . now this is , that nothing ought to be established in the worship of god , but what is authorised by some precept or example in the word of god , which is the compleat and adequate rule of worship . be it so , that this principle is by some allowed , yea contended for . it will not be easie to affix a guilt upon them , on the account of its being so ; for , lay aside prejudics , corrupt interests , and passions , and i am perswaded that at the first view , it will not seem to be forraign , unto what is in an hundred places declared and taught in the scripture . and certainly a man must be master of extraordinary projections , who can foresee 〈◊〉 the evil , confusion and desolation in the world , which our author hath found out , as inevitable consequents of its admi● tance . it hath , i confess , been former disputed with colourable arguments , pr● tences and instances , on the one side and the other ; and variously stated among●● learn'd men , by , and on various distinction● and with diverse limitations . but the manner of our author is , that whatever is contrary to his apprehensions , must present●● overthrow all government , and bring in 〈◊〉 confusion into the world. such huge weight hath he wonted himself to lay o● the smallest different conceptions of the minds of men , where his own are not 〈◊〉 throned . particularly it is contended that there can be no peace in any churche● or states , whilest this principle is admitted : when it is easily demonstrable , tha● without the admittance of it , as to its substance and principal end , all peace and agreement among churches are utterly impossible . the like also may be said of states , which indeed are not at all concerned in it , any farther , than as it is a principal means of their peace and security , where it is embraced ; and that which would reduce rulers to a stability of mind in these things , after they have been tossed up and down with the various suggestions of men , striving every one to exalt their own imaginations . but seeing it is pretended and granted to be of so much importance , i shall , without much regard to the exclamations of this author , and the reproachful contemptuous expressions , which without stint or measure he poures out upon the assertors of it , consider both what is the concern of his present adversaries in it , and what is to be thought of the principle it self ; so submiting the whole to the judgement of the candid reader . only i must add one thing to the position , without which it is not maintained by any of those , with whom he hath to do ; which may deliver him from combating the air in his next assault of it ; and this is , that nothing ought to be established in the worship of god , as a part of that worship , or made constantly necessary in its observance , without the warranty before-mentioned ; for this is expresly contended for by them , who maintain it ; and who reject nothing upon the authority of it , but what they can prove to be a pretended part of religious worship as such . and , as thus laid down , i shall give some further account both of the principle it self , and of the interest of the non-conformists in it ; because both it and they are together here reproached . what then i say is the true sense and importance of that which our author design● to oppose , according to the mind of them who assert it ; how impotent his attempts against it are for its removal , shall briefly ▪ be declared . in the mean time i cannot but , in the first place , tell him , that if by any means this principle truly stated , as to the expression wherein it is before laid down , and the formal terms whereof it consisteth , should be shaken , or rendred dubious , yet that the way will not be much the plainer , or clearer , for the introduction of his pretensions . there are yet other general maxims , which non-conformists adhere unto , and suppose not justly questionable , which they can firmly stand and build upon in the management of their plea , as to all differences between him and them . and because , it may be , he is unacquainted with them , i shall reckon over some of them for his information . and they are these that follow . 1. that whatever the scripture hath indeed prescribed , and appointed to be done , and observed in the worship or god , and the government of the church , that is indeed to be done and observed . this , they suppose , will not be opposed : at least they do not yet know , notwithstanding any thing spoken or disputed in this discourse , any pretences , on which it may honestly so be . it is also , as i think , secured , matth. 28. 20. 2. that nothing in conjunction with , nothing as an addition or supplement unto what is so appointed , ought to be admitted , if it be contrary either to the general rules , or particular preceptive instructions of the scripture . and this also , i suppose , will be granted : and if it be not freely , some are ready by arguments to extort the confession of it from them that shall deny it . 3. that nothing ought to be joyned with , or added unto , what in the scripture is prescribed and appointed in these things , without some cogent reason , making such conjunction : or addition necessary . of what necessity may accrue unto the observation of such things , by their prescription , we do not now dispute : but at present only desire to see the necessity of : their prescription . and this can be nothing , but some defect in substance or circumstance , matter or manner , kind or form , in the institutions mentioned in the scripture , as to their proper ends . now whe● this is discovered , i will not , for my par● much dispute by whom the supplement to be made . in the mean time i do judg● it reasonable , that there be some previou● reasons assigned unto any additional prescriptions in the worship of god unto what is revealed in the scripture , rendring the matter of those prescriptions antecedently necessary and reasonable . 4. that if any thing or things in this kind , shall be found necessary , to be added and prescribed , then that and those alone be so , which are most consonant unto the general rules of the scripture , given as for our guidance in the worship of god , and the nature of those institutions themselves , wherewith they are conjoyned , or whereunto they are added . and this also i suppose to be a reasonable request , and such as will be granted by all men , who dare not advance their own wills and wisdom above or against the will and wisdom of god. 5. now if , as was said , the general principle before-mentioned , should by any means be duly removed , or could be so ; if intangled or rendred dubious ; yet as far as i can learn , the non-conformists will be very far from supposing the matters in contest between them and their adversaries , to be concluded . but as they look upon their concernments to be absolutely secured in the principles now mentioned , all which they know to be true , and hope to be unquestionable : so the truth is , there is by this author very small occasion administred unto any thoughts of quitting the former more general thesis as rightly stated ; but rather , if his ability be a competent measure of the merit of his cause , there is a strong confirmation given unto it in the minds of considering men , from the impotency and succeslesness of the attempt made upon it . and that this may appear to the indifferent readers satisfaction , i shall so far divert in this place from the pursuit of my first design , as to state the principle aright , and briefly to call the present opposition of it , unto a new account . the summ in general , of what this author opposeth with so much clamour is , that divine revelation is the sole rule of divine religious worship ; an assertion , that in its latitude of expression , hath been acknowledged in , and by , all nations and people . the very heathen admitted it of old , as shall be manifested , if need require , by instances sufficient . for though they framed many gods in their foolish darkened imaginations , yet they thought , that every one of them would be worshipped according to his own mind , direction and prescription . so did , and , think do , christians generally believe : only some have a mind to pare this generally avowed principle , to curb it , and order it so by distinctions and restrictions , that it may serve their turn , and consist with their interest . for an opposition unto it nakedly , directly and expresly , few have had the confidence yet to make . and the non-conformists need not go one step farther , in the expression of their judgements and principles in this matter . for who shall compell them to take their adversaries distinctions , ( which have been invented and used by the most learned of them ) of , substantial and accidental ; proper and reductive ; primitive and accessary ; direct and consequential ; intrinsick and circumstantial worship , and the like , for the most part unintelligible terms in their application , into the state of the question ? if men have a mind , let them oppose this thesis as laid down , if not , let them let it alone : and they , who shall undertake the confirmation of it , will , no doubt , carry it through the briets of those unscriptural distinctions . and that this author may be the better instructed in his future work , i shall give him a little farther account of the terms of the assertion laid down . revelation is either 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and containeth every discovery or declaration , that god hath made of himself , or of his mind and will , unto men . thus it is comprehensive of that concreated light , which is in all men , concerning him and his will. for although we say , that this is natural ; and is commonly contra-distinguished to revelation properly so called , which for perspicuity sake we call revelation supernatural ; yet whereas it doth not so necessarily accompany humane nature , but that it may be separated from it ; not is it educed out of our natural faculties by their own native or primigenial vertue ; but is , or was distinctly implanted in them by god himself ; i place it under the general head of revelation . hence whatever is certainly from god , by the light of nature and instinct thereof declared so to be , is no less a certain rule of worship and obedience , so far forth as it is from h●m , and concerneth those things , than any thing that comes from him by express vocal revelation . and this casts out of consideration a vain exception , wherewith some men please themselves ; as though the men of this opinion , denyed the admittance of what is from god , and by the light of nature discovered to be his mind and will. let them once prove any thing in contest between them and their adversaries to be required , prescribed , exacted or made necessary by the light of nature , as the will of god revealed therein , and i will assure them , that as to my concern , there shall be an end of all difference about it . but yet th●● i may adde a little farther light into the sense of the non-conformists in this matter ; i say , 1. that this inbred light of reason guides unto nothing at all in or about the worship of god , but what is more fully , clearly and directly taught and declared in the scripture . and this may easily be evinced , as from the untoward mixture of darkness and corruption , that is befallen our primigenial i●bred principles of light and wisdom , by the entrance of sin ; so also from the end of the scripture it self ; which was to restore that knowledge of god and his mind , which was lost by sin ; and which might be as useful to man in his lapsed condition , as the other was in his pure and uncorrupted estate . at present therefore , i shall leave this assertion , in expectation of some instance , in matters great or small , to the contrary , before i suppose it be obnoxious to question or dispute . 2. as there can be no opposition , nor contradiction , between the light of nature , and inspired vocal or scriptural revelation , because they are both from god : so if in any instance , there should appear any such thing unto us , neither faith nor reason can rest in that which is pretended to be natural light , but must betake themselves for their resolution unto express revelation . and the reason hereof is evident ; because nothing is natural light , but what is common to all men ; and where it is denyed , it is frustrated as to its ruling efficacy . again , it is mixed , as we said before ; and it is not every mans work to separate the chaffe from the wheat ; or what god hath implanted in the mind of man when he made him upright , and what is since soaked into the principles of his nature , from his own inventions . but this case may possibly very rarely fall out , and so shall not much be insisted on . 3. our enquiry in our present contest , is solely about instituted worship , which we believe to depend on supernatural revelation ; the light of nature can no way relieve or guide us in it or about it , because it refers universally to things above , and beyond that light : but only with reference unto those moral , natural circumstances , which appertain unto those actings or actions of men , whereby it is performed ; which we willingly submit unto its guidance and direction . again , vocal revelation hath come under two considerations : first , as it was occasional . secondly , as it became stated . first , as it was occasional . for a long time god was pleased to guide his church in many concerns of his worship , by fresh occasional revelations ; even from the giving of the first promise unto adam , unto the solemn giving of the law by moses . for although men had in process of time many stated revelations , that were preserved by tradition among them ; as the first promise ; the institution of sacrifices , and the like : yet as to sundry emergencies of his worship , and parts of it , god guided them by new occasional revelations . now those revelations being not recorded in the scripture , as being only for present or emergent use ; we have no way to know them , but by what those , to whom god was pleased so to reveal himself , did practise ; and which , on good testimony found acceptance with him . whatever they so did , they had especial warranty from god for ; which is the case of the great institution of sacrifices it self . it is a sufficient argument that they were divinely instituted , because they were graciously accepted . secondly , vocal revelation as the rule of worship , became stated and invariable , in and by the giving and writing of the law. from thence , with the allowances before mentioned , we confine it to the scripture , and so unto all succeeding generations . i confess many of our company , who kept to us hitherto in granting divine revelation to be the sole principle and rule of religious worship , now leave us , and betake themselves to paths of their own . the postmisnicall jews , after many attempts made that way by their predecessors , both before and after the conversation of our lord christ in the flesh , at length took up a resolution , that all obligatory divine revelation was not contained in the scripture ; but was partly preserved by orall tradition . for although they added a multitude of observances , unto what were prescribed unto their fathers by moses : yet they would never plainly forego that principle , nor do to this day ; that divine revelation is the rule of divine worship . wherefore to secure their principle and practice , and to reconcile them together , ( which are indeed at an unspeakable variance ) they have fancied their oral law ; which they assert to be of no less certain and divine original , than the law that is written . on this pretence they plead , that they keep themselves unto the fore-mentioned principle , under the superstition of a multitude of self-invented observances . the papists also here leave us ; but still with a semblance of adhering to that principle , which carryes so great and uncontrollable an evidence with it , as that there are very few as was said , who have hitherto risen up in a direct and open opposition unto it . for whereas they have advanced a double principle for the rule of religious worship , besides the scripture ; namely tradition , and the present determinations of their church , from thence educed ; they assert the first to be divine or apostolical , which is all one ; and the latter to be accompanyed with infallibility , which is the formal reason of our adherence and submission unto divine revelations . so that they still adhere in general unto the fore-mentioned principle ; however they have debauched it by their advancement of those other guides . but herein also , we must do them right ; that they do not absolutely turn loose those two rude creatures of their own ; traditions , and present church determinations , upon the whole face of religion , to act therein at their pleasure ; but they secure them from whatever is determined in the written word ; affirming them to take place only in those things , that are not contrary to the word , or not condemned in it . for in such , they con●ess , they ought not , nor can take place . which i doubt whether our author will allow of or no , in reference to the power by him asserted . by religious worship , in the thesis above , we understand , as was said before , instituted worship only , and not that which is purely moral and natural ; which , in many instances of it , hath a great coincidence with the light of nature , as was before discoursed . we understand also the solemn or stated worship of the church of god. that worship , i say , which is solemn and stated , for the church , the whole church , at all times and seasons , according to the rules of his appointment , is that which we enquire after . hence in this matter , we have no concernment in the fact of this or that particular person , which might be ●●casionally influenced by necessity ; as vids eating of the shewbread was ; 〈◊〉 which , how far it may excuse or just 〈◊〉 the persons that act thereon , or regu●● their actions , directly , i know not , nor any way engaged to enquire . this is the state of our question in ha●● the mind of the assertion , which is h●● so hideously disguised , and represent in its pretended consequences . neit●●● do i think there is any thing needful f●●ther to be added unto it . but yet for 〈◊〉 clearing of it from mistakes , somethi●● may be discoursed which relates unto we say then ; first , that there are sundry things be used in , about , and with those actio● whereby the worship of god is perfor●●ed , which yet are not sacred , nor do 〈◊〉 long unto the worship of god as su●● though that worship cannot be perform without them . the very breath that 〈◊〉 breathe , and the light whereby they s● are necessary to them in the worship●● god ; and yet are not made sacred● religious thereby . constantine said of o● that he was a bishop , but without the churc● not a sacred officer , but one that too● care , and had a supervisorship of thir● ●ecessarily belonging to the performance of gods worship , yet no parts or adjuncts 〈◊〉 it as such . for it was all still without . now all those things in or about the worship of god , that belonged unto constantines episcopacy , that is the ordering and disposal of things without the church , but about it ; without worship , but about it ; we acknowledge to be left unto common prudence , guided by the general rules of scripture , by which the church is to walk and compose its actings . and this wholly supersedes the discourse of our author concerning the great variety of circumstances , wherewith all humane actions are attended . for in one word , all such circumstances as necessarily ▪ attend humane actions as such , neither are sacred , nor can be made so without an express institution of god , and are , disposable by humane authority . so that the long contest of our author on that head , is altogether vain . so then , secondly , by all the concernments of religious worship , which any affirm , that they must be directed by divine revelation , or regulated by the scripture ; they intend all that is religious , or whatever belongs to the worship of god , as it is divine worship : and not what belongs unto the actions , wherein and when by it is performed , as they are actions . thirdly , that when any part of worship is instituted in special , and general rule are given for the practice of it hic ● nunc : there the warranty is sufficient fo● its practice at its due seasons ; and for those seasons the nature of the thing it self , with what it hath respect unto , and the ligh● of the general scripture rules , will give them an acceptable determination . and these few observations will abundantly manifest , the impertinency of those who think it incumbent on any , by vertue of the principle before laid down , to produce express warranty in words of scripture , for every circumstance that doth attend and belong unto the actions , whereby the worship of god is performed : which as they require not ; so no such thing is included in the principle as duly stated . for particular circumstances , that have respect to good order , decency , and external regulation of divine worship , they are all of them either circumstances of the actions themselves , whereby divine worship is performed and exercised ▪ and so in general they are natural and necessary ; which in particular , or actu exercito , depend on moral prudence ; or religious rites themselves , added in and to the whole , or any parts of divine service , which alone in this question come under enquiry . i know there are usually sundry exceptions put into this thesis , as before stated and asserted : and instances to the contrary are pretended ; some whereof are touched upon by our author , pag. 181. which are not now particularly , and at large to be considered . but yet because i am , beyond expectation , engaged in the explication of this principle , i shall set it so far forth right and straight unto further examination , as to give in such general observations , as , being consistent with it , and explanatory of it , will serve to obviate the most of the exceptions that are laid against it . as , 1. where ever in the scripture we meet with any religious duty , that had a preceding institution , although we find not expresly a consequent approbation , we take it for granted that it was approved ; and so on the contrary , where an approbation appears , and institution is concealed . 2. the question being only about religious duties , or things pertaining to , or required in or about the worship of god ; no exception against the general thesis ca●● take place , but such as consists in thing● directly of that nature . instances in and about things civil , and belonging meerly to humane conversation , or things natural , as signs and memorials one of another are in this matter of no consideration . 3. things extraordinary in their performance , and which , for ought we know may have been so in their warranty 〈◊〉 rule , have no place in our debate . fo● we are inquiring only after such things as may warrant a suitable practice in us● without any further authority , which is the end , for which instances against this principle are produced ; this actions extr●ordinary will not do . 4. singular and occasional actions which may be variously influenced and regulated by present circumstances , are n● rule to guide the ordinary stated worship of the church . davids eating of th● shew-bread , wherein yet he was justifie● because of his hunger and necessity , was not to be drawn into example of giving the shew-bread promiscuously to the people . and sundry instances to the same purpose are given by our saviour himself . 5. there is nothing of any dangerous or had consequence in this whole controversie , but what lyes in the imposition on mens practices of the observation of uncommanded rites , making them necessary unto them in their observation . the things themselves are said in their own nature , antecedent to their injunction for practice , to be indifferent , and indifferent as unto practice . what hurt would it be to leave them so ? they cannot , say some , be omitted for such and such reasons . are there then reasons : for their observation besides their injuction , and such as on the account whereof they are injoyned ? then are they indeed necessary in some degree before their injunction . for all reason for them must be taken from themselves . and things wholly indifferent have nothing in themselves one more than another , why one should be taken , and another left . for if one have the advantage of another in the reasons for its practice , it is no more indifferent : at least it is not comparatively so . granting therefore , things injoyned to be antecedently to their injunction , equally indifferent in their own nature , with all other things of the same or the like kind , which yet are rejected or not injoyned ; and then to give reasons taken from themselves , their decency , their conducingness to edification , their tendency to the increase of devotion , their significancy of this or that ; is to speak daggers and contradictions ; and to say , a thing is indifferent before the injuction of its practice ; but yet if we had thought so , we would never have enjoyned it ; seeing we do so upon reasons . and without doubt this making necessary the practice of things in the worship of god , proclaimed to be indifferent in themselves , and no way called for by any antecedent reason , is an act of power . 6. where things are instituted of god , and he himself makes an alteration in , or of his own institutions , those institutions may be lawfully practised and observed , untill the mind of god for their alteration and abolition be sufficiently revealed , proposed , and con●irmed unto them that are concerned in them . for as the making of a law doth not oblige , untill , and without the promulgation of it , so as that any should offend in not yielding obedience unto it ; so upon the abrogation of a law , obedience may be conscienciously and without sin yielded unto that law , untill the abrogation , by what act soever it was made , be notified and confirmed . an instance hereof we have in the observation of mosaical rites , in the forbearance of god , after the law of their institution was enervated , and the obligation of it unto obedience really dissolved ; at least the foundation of it laid ; for the actual dissolution of it depended on the declaration of the fact , wherein it was founded . 7. there may be a coincidence of things performed by sundry persons , at the same time and in the same place ; whereof some may have respect unto religious worishp directly , and so belong unto it ; and others only occasionally , and so not at all belong thereunto . as if when the athenians had been worshipping of their altars , st. paul had come , and reading the inscription of one of them , and thence taking occasion and advantage to preach the unknown god unto them ; their act was a part of religious veneration , his presence and observation of them , and laying hold of that occasion for his own purpose , was not so . 8. many things , which are meer natural circumstances , requisite unto the performance of all actions in communities whatever , and so to be ordered by prudence according unto general rules of the word of god , may seem to be adjuncts of worship , unless they are followed to their original , which will discover them to be of another nature . 9. civil usages and customes observed 〈◊〉 a religious manner , as they are all to be by them that believe , and directed by them unto moral ends , may have a shew and appearance of religious worship ; and so , according to the principle before stated , require express institution . but although they belong unto our living unto god is general ; as do all things that we do , seeing whether we eat or drink , we are to do a● to the glory of god ; and therefore are to be done in faith ; yet they are or may be no part of instituted worship , but such actions of life as in our whole course , we are to regulate by the rules of the scripture , so farr as they afford us guidance therein . 10. many observances in and about the worship of god , are recorded in the scripture , without especial reflecting any blame or crime on them , by whom they were performed ; ( as many great sins are historically only related , and left to be judged by the rule of the world in other places , without the least remark of displeasure on the persons guilty of them , ) and that by such whose persons were accepted of god ; yea it may be in that very service , wherein less or more they failed in their observation , god being merciful to them though not in all things prepared according to the prepartion of the sanctuary ; and yet the things themselves not to be approved nor justified , but condemned of god. such was the fact of judas maccabeus in his offering sacrifices for the sin of them that were dead ; adn that of instituting an aniversary feast in commemoration of the dedication of the altar . this little search have i made into this great mystery , as it is called , of puritanism , after which so mighty an outcry is raised by this author ; and if it might be here further pursued , it would as stated by us in these general rules and explications , be fully manifested to be a principle in general admitted , untill of late , by all sorts of men : some few only having been forced sometimes to corrupt it for the security of some especial interest of their own . and it were an easie thing to confirm this assertion by the testimonies of the most learned protestant writers , that have served the church in the last ages . but i know how with many amongst us they are regarded ; and that the citation of some of the most reverend names among them , is not unlikely to prejudice and disadvantage the cause , wherein their witness is produced . i shall not therefore expose them to the contempt of those , now they are dead , who would have been unwilling to have entred the lists with them in any kind of learning , when they were alive . there is , in my apprehension , the substance of this assertion still retained among the papists . bellarmine himself layes it down as the foundtion of all his controversies ; and indeavours to prove , propheticos & apostolicos libros verum esse verbum dei , & certam & stabilem regulam fidei . de verbo dei. lib. 1. cap. 1. that the prophetical and apostoiclal books , ●are the true word of god , a certain and stable rule of faith , wil go a great way in this matter . for all our obedience in the worship of god is the obedience of faith : and if the scripture be the rule of faith , our faith is not in any of its concerns , to be extended beyond it ; nor more than the thing regulated is to be beyond the rule . neither is this opinion of so late a date , as our author and others would perswade their ceredulous followers . the full sense of it was spoken out roudly of old . so speaks the great constantine ( that an emperour may lead the way ) in his oration to the renowned fathers assembled at nice . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . i. e. the evangelical and apostolical books , and the oracles of the ancient prophets , do plainly instruct us , what we are to think of divine things . laying aside therefore all hostile discord , let us resolve the things brought into question , by the testimonies of the writings given by divine inspiration . we have here the full substance of what is pleaded for ; and might the advice of this noble emperour be admitted , we should have a readier way to expedite all our present differences , than as yet seems to be provided for us . the great basil speaks yet more expresly than constantine the great lib. de confes . fid . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . i. e. it hath the manifest guilt of infidelity and pride , to reject any thing that is written , or to add or introduce any thing that is not written ; which is the summ of all that in this matter is contended for . to the same purpose he discourseth epist. 80. ad eustath : where moreover he rejects all pretences of customs and usages of any sorts of men , and will have all differences to be brought for their determination to the scripture . christstome in his homily on psalm 95. speaks the same sense , saith he ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . who is it that promiseth these things ? paul. for we are not to say any thing without testimony , nor upon our meer reasonings . for if any thing be spoken without scripture ( testimony ) the mind of the hearers fluctuates , now assenting , anon hesitating , sometimes rejecting what is spoken as frivolous , sometimes receiving it as probable . but where the testimonies of the divine voice comes forth from the scripture , it confirmeth the word of the speaker , and the mind of the hearer . it is even so ; whilest things relating to religion and the worship of god , are debated and disputed by the reasonings of men , or on any other principles besides the express authority of the scriptures , no certainty or full perswasion of mind can be attained about them . men under such actings are as lucian in his menippus , says he was between the disputations of the philosophers ; sometimes he nodded one way , sometimes another , and seemed to give his assent backwards and forwards to express contradiction . it is in the testimony of the scripture alone , about the things of god , that the consciences of those that fear him can acquiesce and find satisfaction . the same author as in many other places , so in his 13 homily on the 2 epist. to the corinth . expresly sends us to the scripture to enquire after all things , as that which is the exact canon , ballance , and rule of religion . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . among the latines tertullian is express to the same purpose . in his book against hermogenes , adoro ( said he ) plenitudinem scripturum quae mihi factorem manifestat & facta — again , scriptum esse hoc doceat hermogenis officina , aut timeat , rae illud , adjicientibus , aut detrahentibus destinatum . i adore the fulness of the scripture ; — and let hermogenes prove what he saith , to be written , or fear the woe denounced against them , who add to , or take from , the word . and again in his book de carne christi ; non recipio quod extra scriptuream de tuo infers . i do not receive , what you bring of your own without scripture . so also in his book , de praescriptionibus . nobis nihil ex nostro arbitrio indulgere licet ; sed nec eligere quod aliquis de arbitrio suo induxerit apostoles domini habemus authores , qui nec ipsi quicquam ex suo arbitrio quod inducerent elegerunt , sed acceptam a christo disciplain ani , deliter nationibus assignaverunt . it is ● lawful for us ( in these things ) to ind●● unto our own choice ; nor to choose what ● one brings in of his choosing . we have apostles of our lord for our examp●● who brought in nothing of their own min● or choice ; but having received the discipl● ( of christian religion ) from chrsit , t●● faithfully communicated it to the nation . ● hierome is plain to the same purpose i● sundry places . so comment . in 23 matt● quod de scripturis authoritatem non habet , ea●dem facilitate contemnitur , qua probatur . th●● which hath not authority from the scripture● is as easily despised as asserted . comm. i● hagg. cap. 1. sed & alia quae absque autho●●ritate & testimoniis scripturarum , quasi traditione apostolica sponte reperiunt atque confingunt , percutit gladius dei ; but those other things which without authority or testimony of the scriptures , they find out or faign of their own accord , as of apostolical . tradition ; the sword of god smites through . it were easie to produce twenty other testimonies out of the ancient writers of the church , giving sufficient countenance to the assertion contended about . what account our author gives of this principle is now , very briefly , to be considered . first therefore , pag. 174 , 175. he re●es it as a pretence wild and humoursome , ●ich men must be absurd if they believe ; ● impudent if they do not ; seeing it hath ●t the least shaddow or foundation either ●m scripture or reason : though it be ex●●esly asserted either in its own terms , or ●onfirmed by direct deductions , in and ●om above forty places of scripture . ●nd so much for that part of the as●ault . the next chargeth it with infinite follies ●nd mischiefs in those which allow it . and 't is said , that there can never be an end of alterations and disturbances in the church , whilest it is maintained . the contrary whereof is true , confirmed by experience and evidence of the thing it self . the admittance of it would put an end to all disturbances . for let any man judge , whether , if there be matters in difference , as in all these things there are and ever were ; the bringing them to an issue and a setled stability , be not likelier to be effected by all mean consenting unto one common rule , whereby they may be tryed and examined , than that every party should be left at liberty , to indulge to their own ▪ affections and imaginations about them . and yet we are told , p. 178. that all the pious villanies , that ever have disturbed the christian world , have sheltered themselves in this grand maxime ; that jesus christ is the only law-maker to his church . i confess , i could heartily desire , that such expressions might be forborn . for let what pretence men please be given to them , and colour put upon them ; they are full of scandal to christian religion . the mixime it self , here traduced , is as true as any part of the gospel . and it cannot be pretended , that it is not the maxime it self , but the abuse of it , ( as all the principles of the gospel , through the blindness and lusts of men , have been abused ; ) that is reflected on : seeing the design of the whole discourse is to evert the maxime it self . now whatever apprehensions our author may have of his own abilities , i am satisfied , that they are no way competent to disprove this principle of the gospel ; as will be evident on the first attempt he shall make to that purpose ; let him begin the tryal as soon as he pleaseth . in the third section , we have an heap of instances raked together to confront the principle , in its proper sense before declared and vindicated , in no one whereof it is at all concerned . for the reason of things , in matters civil and religious , are not the same . all political government in theworld consists in the exercise of principles of natural right , and their just application to times , ages , people , occasions and occurences . whilest this is done , government is acted regularly to its proper end : where this is missed , it failes . there things god hath left unto the prudence of men , and their consent ; wherein they cannot , for the most part , faile , unless they are absolutely given up unto unbridled lusts ; and the things , wherein they may faile , are alwaies convenient or inconvenient ; good and useful , or hurrful and destructive ; not alwaies , yea very seldome directly and in themselves morally good or evil. in such things mens ease and pofit not their consciences , are concerned . in the worship of god things are quite otherwise . it is not convenience or inconvenience , advantage or disadvantage , as to the things of this life , but meerly good or evil , in reference to the pleasing of god , and to ternity , that is in question . particular applications to the manners , customes , usages of places , times , countreys , which is the proper field of humane authority , liberty , and prudence in civil things , ( because their due , useful , and regular administration d●●pends upon them ; ) have here no plac●● for the things of the worship of god b●●ing spiritual , are capable of no variatio● from temporal earthly varieties amon● men ; have no respect to climate● customes , formes of civil governmen● or any thing of that nature . but con●sidering men quite under other notions namely , of sinners and believers ; with respect utterly unto other ends , namely their living spiritually unto god here , and the eternal enjoyment of him hereafter are not subject to such prudential accommodations or applications . the worship of god is or ought to be , the same at all times , in all places , and amongst all people , in all nations ; and the order of it is fixt and determined in all particulars , that belong unto it . and let not men pretend the contrary , untill they can give an instance of any such defect in the institutions of christ , as that the worship of god cannot be carryed on , nor his church ruled and edified , without an addition of something of their own for the supply thereof ; which therefore should and would be necessary to that end antecedent unto its addition ; and when they have so done , i will subscribe unto whatsoever they shall be pleased to add of that , or indeed any other kind . ●ustomes of churches , and rules of decency , which our author here casts under the magistrates power , are ambiguous terms , ●nd in no sense express the hypothesis he ●ath undertaken the defence of . in the proper signification of the words , the ●hings intended may fall under those natural circumstances , wherein religious actions in the worship of the church may have their concern , as they are actions , and are disposable by humane authority . but he will not , i presume , so soon desert his fundamental principle , of the magistrates appointing things in , and parts of religious worship , no where described or determined in the word of god ; which alone we have undertaken to oppose . the instances he also gives us about actions , in their own nature and use indifferent ; as going to law , or taking physick ; are not , in the least , to his purpose . and yet if i should say , that none of these actions are indeed indifferent in actu exercito , as they speak , and in their individual performance , but have a moral good or evil , as an inseparable adjunct , attending them , arising out of respect to some rule , general or particular , of divine revelation , i know he cannot dis●prove it ; and much more is not pleade concerning religious worship . but this principle is further charge with mischief equal to its folly ; which i●●proved by instances in sundry uninstituted observances , both in the jewish , an● primitive christian churches ; as also i● protestant churches abroad . i answer that if this author will consent to um●pire these differences by either the old or new testament , or by any protestant church in the world ; we shall be nearer an end of them , than , as far as i can see , yet otherwise we are . if he will not be bound , neither to the example of the church of the jews ; nor of the churches of the new-testament ; nor of the present protestant churches ; it must he confessed , that their names are here made use of , only for a pretence and an advantage . under the old testament we find , that all that god required of his church , was , that they should observe the law of moses his servant , which he commanded to him in horeb , for all israel , with his statutes and judgements , mal. 4. 4. and when god had given out his institutions , and the whole order of his worship , it being fixed in the church accordingly ; it is added eight or ten times ●n one chapter , that this was done , as ●he lord commanded moses , even so did he , exod. 40. after this god gives them many strict prohibitions , from adding any thing to what he had so commanded ; as deut. 4. 2. and chap. 12. 32 prov. 30. 6. and as he had in the decalogue rejected any worship not of his own appointment as such , exod. 20. 4 , 5. so he made it afterwards the rule of his acceptation of that people and what they did , or his refusal of them and it ; whether it was by him commanded or no. so in particular , he expresly rejects that which was so added , as to dayes , and times , and places , though of the nearest affinity and cognation to what was appointed by himself , because it was invented by man ; yea by a king , 1 kings 12. 33. and when in process of time , many things of an uncertain original were crept into the observance of the church , and had firmed themselves with the notion of traditions ; they were all at once rejected in that word of the blessed holy one ; in ●ain do ye worship me , teaching for doctrines ( that is , what is in my worship to be observed , ) the traditions of men . for the churches of the new testament , the foundation of them is laid i● that command of our saviour , matt 28. 20. go and teach all nations ; teac●●ing them to observe and do all whatsoever command you , and so i am with you to th● end of the world . that they should b● taught to do or observe any thing , bu● what he commanded ; that his presenc● should accompany them in the teaching o● observation of any superadditions of their own ; we no where find written , intimated , or exemplified by any practice of theirs . nor , however , in that juncture of time , the like whereunto did never occurt before , nor ever shall do again , during the expiration and taking down of mosaical institutions , before they became absolutely unlawful to be observed , the apostles , according to the liberty given them by our lord jesus christ , and direction of the holy ghost , did practise some things complyant with both church-states , did they , in any one instance , impose any thing on the practice of the churches in the worship of god , to be necessarily and for a continuance observed among them , but what they had express warrant , and authority and command of our lord christ for . counsel they gave in particular cases , that depended upon present emergencies ; directions for the regular and due observation of institutions , and the application of general rules in particular practice ; they also taught a due and sanctified use of civil customes ; and the proper use of moral or natural symbols . but to impose any religious rites on the constant practice of the church in the worship of god , making them necessary to be alwaies observed by that imposition , they did not once attempt to do , or assume power for it to themselves . yea , when upon an important difficulty , and to prevent a ruining scandal , they were enforced to declare their judgement to the churches in some points , wherein they were to abridge the practice of their christian liberty for a season ; they would do it only in things made necessary by the state of things then among the churches , ( in reference to the great end of edification , whereby all practices are to be regulated ) before the declaration of their judgement , for the restriction mentioned , acts 15. so remote were they from assuming unto themselves a dominion over the religion , consciences or faith of the disciples of christ ; or requiring any thing in the constant worship of the church , but what was according to the will , appointment and command of their lord and master , little countenance therefore is our author like to obtain unto his sentiments , from the scriptures of the old and new testament ; or the example either of the jews or christians mentioned in them . the instances he gives from the church of the jewes , or that may be given , are either civil observances , as the feast of purim ; or moral conveniencies directed by general rules , as the building of synagogues ; or customary signes suited to the nature of things , as wearing of sackcloth ; or such as have no proof of their being approved , as the feast of dedication , and some monethly fasts taken up in the captivity , from none of which any objection can be taken against the position before laid down . those from the church of the new testament had either a perpetual binding institution from the authority of christ , as the lords day sabbath ; or contain only a direction to use civil customes and observances in an holy and sanctified manner , as the love feasts and kiss of charity ; or such as were never heard of in the new testament at all , as the observation of lent and easter . he that out of these instances can draw a warranty for the power of the civil magistrate over religion and the consciences of men , to institnte new duties in religion when he pleaseth , so these do not countenance vice , nor disgrace the deity ; which all his christian subjects shall be bound in conscience to observe ; or otherwise make good any of those particulat conclusions , that therefore christ is not the ouly law giver to his church ; or that divin● revelation is not the adequate rule of divin● worship ; or that men may add any thing to the worship of god , to be observed in it , constantly and indispensiely , by the whole church ; will manifest himself to have an excellency in argumentation , beyond what i have ever yet met withal . a removal of the argument taken from the perfection of the scripture , and its sufficiency to instruct us in the whole counsel and will of god , concerning his worship and our obedience unto him , is nextly attempted : but with no engines , but what have been discovered to be insufficient to that purpose an hundred times . it is alledged , that what the scripture commands in the worship of god , is to be observed ; that what it forbids , is to be avoided , which if really acknowledged , and a concernment of the consciences of men be granted therein , is sufficiently destructive of the principal design of our author . but moreover i say , that it commands and fo●●bids things by general rules , as well by particular precepts and inhibition and that , if what is so commanded be d●served , and what is so forbidden be avoided , there is a direct-rule remaining in for the whole worship of god. but this is said here to be of substan●● duties , but not of external circumstance and if it be so even of substantial dut●● it perfectly overthrows all that our autho● hath been pleading in the three first cha●ters of his discourse . for external circumstances ; of what nature those are wh●● are disposable by humane authority an● prudence , hath been now often declare and needs not here to be repeated . the summ of his apprehensions in th● matter , about the perfection and suffici●ency of the scripture in reference to th● worship of god , our author gives us pag. 189. anything , saith he , is lawful ( th●● is , in the worship of god ) that is no● made unlawful by some prohibition : for things become evil , not upon the scors of there being not commanded ; but upon that of their being forbidden , and what the scripture forbids not , it allows ; and what it allows , is not unlawful ; and what is not unlawful , may lawfully be done . this tale , i confess , we have been told many and many a time : but it hath been as often answered , that the whole of it , as to any thing of reasoning , is captious and sophistical . once more therefore ; what is commanded in the worship of god , is lawful ; yea is our duty to observe . all particular instances of this sort , that are to have actual place in the worship of god , were easily enumerated , and so expresly commanded . and why among sundry things that might equally belong thereunto one should be commanded , and another left at liberty without any institution , no man can divine . of particular things not to be observed there is not the same reason . it is morally impossible , that all instances of mens inventions , all that they can find out to introduce into the worship of god , at any time , in any age , and please themselves therein , should be before hand enumerated , and prohibited in their particular instances . and if because they are not so forbidden , they may lawfully be introduced into divine worship , and imposed upon the practices of men ; ten thousand things may be made lawful , and be so imposed . but the truth is , although a particular prohibition be needful to render a thing evil in it self ; a general prohibition is enough to render any thing unlawful in the worship of god. so we grant , that what is not forbidden is lawful : but withal say , that every thing is forbidden , that should be esteemed as any part of divine worship , that is not commanded ; and if it were not , yet for want of such a command , or divine institution , it can have neither use nor efficacy , with respect to the end of all religious worship . our author speaks with his wonted confidence in this matter ; yea it seems to rise to its highest pitch : as also doth his contempt of his adversaries , or whatever is , or may be offered by them in the justification of this principle . infinite certainty on his own part , pag. 193. baffled and intolerable impertinencies ; weak and puny arguments ; cavils of a few hot-headed and brainsick people , with other opprobrious expressions of the like nature , filling up a great part of his leaves , are what he can afford unto those whom he opposeth . but yet i am not , for all this bluster , well satisfied , much less infinitely certain , that he doth in any competent measure understand aright the controversie , about which he treats with all this wrath and confidence . for the summ of all , that here he pleads , is no more but this ; that the circumstances of actions in particular are various , and as they are not , so they cannot be determined by the word of god ; and therefore must be ordered by humane prudence and authority : which if he suppose that any men deny , i shall the less wonder at his severe reflections upon them ; though i shall never judge them necessary or excusable in any case whatever . pag. 198. he imposeth it on others that lye under the power of this perswasion , that they are obliged in conscience to act contrary to whatever their superiours command them in the worship of god : which further sufficiehtly evidenceth , that either be understands not the controversie under debate , or that he believes not himself in what he saith : which , because the harsher imputation , i shall avoid the owning of in the least surmise . section 6. from the concession , that the magistrate may take care , that the laws of christ be executed ; that is , command and require his subjects to observe the commands of christ , in that way , and by such means , as those commands , from the nature of the things themselves , and according to the rule of the gospel , may be commanded and required ; he infers , that he hath himself power of making laws in rel●●gion . but why so ? and how doth thi● follow ? why , saith he , it is apparently im●plyed , because whoever hath a power to see the laws be executed , cannot be without a pow●● to command their execution . very good but the conclusion should have been ; he cannot be without a power to make laws is the matter , about which he looks to the execution : which would be good doctrine for justices of the peace to follow . but what is here laid down is nothing but repeating of the same thing in words a little varied ; as if it had been said ; he that hath power to see the laws executed , or a power to command their execution , he hath power to see the laws executed , or a power to command their execution ; which is very true . and this we acknowledge the magistrate hath , in the way before declared . but that because he may do this , he may also make laws of his own in religion , it doth not at all follow from hence , whether it be true or no. but this is further confirmed from the nature of the laws of christ , which have only declared the substance and morality of religious worship : and therefore must needs have left the ordering of its circumstances to the power and wisdom of lawful authority . the laws of christ , which are intended , are those , which he hath given concerning the worship of god. that these have determined the morality of religious worship , i know not how he can well allow , who makes the law of nature to be the measure of morality , and all moral religious worship . and for the substance of religious worship , i wish it were well declared what is intended by it . for my part i think , that whatever is commanded by christ , the observation of it , is of the substance of religious worship ; else i am sure the sacraments are not so . now do but give men leave , as rational creatures , to observe those commands of christ in such a way and manner , as the nature of them requires them to be observed ; as he hath himself in general rules prescribed ; as the concurrent actions of many in society make necessary ; and all this controversie will be at an end . when a duty , as to the kind of it , is commanded in particular , or instituted by christ in the worship of god , he hath given general rules to guide us in the individual performance of it , as to the circumstances that the actions whereby it is performed , will be attended withal . for the disposal of those circumstances according to those rules , prudence is to take place and to be used . for men , who are obliged to act as men in all other things , are not to be looked on as brutes in what is required of them in the worship of god. but to institute mystical rites , and fixed forms of sacred administrations , whereof nothing in the like kind doth necessarily attend the acting of instituted worship , it not to determine circumstances , but to ordain new parts of divine worship : and such injunctions are here confessed by our author , pag. 191. to be new and distinct commands by themselves , and to enjoyn something that the scripture no where commands : which when he produceeth a warranty for , he will have made a great progress towards the determining of the present controversie . page 192. he answers an objection , consisting of two branches , as by him proposed : whereof the first is ; that it cannot stand with the love and wisdom of god not to take order himself for all things , that immediately concern his own worship and kingdom . now though i doubt not at all , but that god hath so done ; yet i do not remember at present , that i have read any imposing the necessity hereof upon him , in answer to his love and wisdom . i confess valerianus magnus , a famous writer of the church of rome , tells us , that never any one did so foolishly institute or order a commonwealth , as jesus christ must be thought to have done ; if he have not left one supream judge to determine the faith and consciences of men in matters of religion and divine worship . and our author seems not to be remote from that kind of reasoning , who , without an assignment of a power to that purpose , contendeth that all things among men will run into confusion ; of so little concernment do the scriptures and the authority of god in them , to some seem to be . we do indeed thankfully acknowledge , that god out of his love and wisdom hath ordered all things belonging to his worship and spiritual kingdom in the world . and we do suppose , we need no other argument to evince this assertion , but to challenge all men , who are otherwise minded , to give an instance of any defect in his institutions to that purpose . and this we are the more confirmed in , because those things , which men think good to add unto them , they dare not contend that they are parts of his worship ; or that they are added to supply any defect therein . neither did ever any man yet say , that there is a defect in the divine institutions of worship , which must be supplyed by a ministers wearing surplice . all then that is intended in this consideration , though not urged , as is here pretended , is ; that god in his goodness , love and care towards his church , hath determined all things that are needful i● or to his worship : and about what is not needful , men , if they please , may contend ; but it will be to no great purpose . the other part of the objection , which he proposeth to himself , is laid down by him in these words ; if jesus christ hath not determined all particular rites and circumstances of religion , he hath discharged his office with less wisdom and fidelity than moses ; who ordered every thing appertaining to the worship of god , even as far as the pint or nails of the tabernacle . and hereunto in particular he returns in answer , not one word : but only ranks it amongst idle and impertinent reasonings . and i dare say , he wants not reasons for his silence : whether they be pertinent or no , i know not . for setting aside the advantage , that , it is possible , he aimed to make in the manner and terms of the proposal of this objection to his sentiments ; and it will appear , that he hath not much to offer for its removal . we dispute not about the rites and circumstances of religion , which are termes ambiguous , and , as hath been declared , may be variously interpreted ; no more than we do about the nails of the tabernacle , wherein there were none at all . but it is about the worship of god and what is necessary thereunto . the ordering hereof , that is , of the house of god and all things belonging thereunto , was committed to jesus christ , as a son over his own house , heb. 3. 3 , 4 , 5. in the discharge of his trust herein , he was faithful as was moses ; who received that testimony from god , that he was faithful in all his house , upon his ordering all things in the worship of god as he commanded him , without adding any thing of his own thereunto , or leaving any thing uninstituted or undetermined , which was to be of use therein . from the faithfulness of christ , therefore , in and over the house of god , as it is compared with the faithfulness of moses , it may be concluded , i think ; that he ordered all things for the worship of god in the churches of the new testament , as far as moses did in and for the church of the old ; and more is not contended for . and it will be made appear , that his commission in this matter was as extensive , as that of moses at the least ; or he could not , in that trust and the discharge of it , have that preheminence above him , which in th● place is ascribed unto him . section 7. an account is given of th● great variety of circumstances , which do a●tend all humane actions : whence it is in possible that they should be all determine by divine prescription . the same we sa● also ; but add withal , that if men woul● leave these circumstance free under t●● conduct of common prudence in the in●stituted worship of god , as they are com●pelled so to do in the performance of mo●ral duties , and as he himself hath le●● them free ; it would be as convenient fo● the reasons and consciences of men , an attempt to the contrary . thus we hav● an instance given us by our author in th● moral duty of charity ; which is command●ed us of god himself ; but the times , sea●sons , manner , objects , measures of it are le●● free , to be determined by humane pru●dence , upon emergencies and occasions ▪ it may be now enquired , whether th● magistrate , or any other , can determine those circumstances by a law ? and whether they are not , as by god , so by al● wise men , left free , under the conduct of their reason and conscience , who are obliged to the duty it self by the command of god ? and why may not the same rule and order be observed with respect to the circumstances that attend the performance of the duties of instituted worship ? besides , there are general circumstances that are capable of a determination : such are time and place as naturally considered , without such adjuncts as might give them a moral consideration , or render them good or evil ; these the magistrate may determine . but for particular circumstances attending individual actions , they will hardly be regulated by a standing law. but none of these things have the least interest in our debate . to add things necessarily to be observed in the worship of god , no way naturally related unto the actions wherewith prescribed worship is to be performed , and then to call them circumstances thereof , erects a notion of things which nothing but interest can digest and concoct . his eighth section is unanswerable . it contains such a strenuous reviling of the puritans , and contemptuous reproaches of their writings , with such encomi●ms of their adversaries , as there is no dealing with it . and so i leave it . and so likewise i do his ninth , wherein , as he saith , he upbraids the men of his contest with their shameful overthrows : and dares them to look those enemies in the face , that have so lamentably cowed them , by so many absolute triumphs and victories . which kind of juvenile exultations on feigned suppositions , will , i suppose , in due time receive an allay from his own more advised thoughts and considerations . the instance , wherewith he countenaunceth himself in his triumphant acclamations unto the victory of his party , is the book of mr. hooker and its being unanswered . concerning which i shall only say ; that , as i wish the same moderation , ingenuity and learning unto all , that engage in the same cause with him in these dayes ; so if this author will mind us of any one argument in his longsome discourse , not already frequently answered , and that in print , long ago , that it shall have its due consideration . but this kind of discourses , it may be , on second thoughts will be esteemed not so comely . and i can mind him of those , who boast as highly of some champions of their own against all protestants , as he can do of any patron of those opinions , which he contendeth for . but it doth not alwayes fall out , that those who have the most outward advantages , and greatest leisure , have the best cause , and abilities to mannage it . the next sections treat concerning superstition , will-worship and popery ; which , as he faith , having been charged by some on the church unduly , he retorts the crime of them upon the authors of that charge . i love not to strive , nor will i contend about words that may have various significations fixed on them . it is about things that we differ . that which is evil , is so , however you call it , and whether you can give it any special name or no. that which is good , will still be so , call it what and how men please . the giving of a bad or odious name to any thing , doth not make it self to be bad or odious . the managing therefore of those appellations , either as to their charge or recharge , i am no way concerned in . when it is proved , that men believe , teach or practise otherwise , than in duty to god they ought to do ; then they do evil : and when they obey his mind and will in all things , then they do well ; and in the end will have the praise thereof . in particular , i confess superstition , as the word is commonly used , denotes a vicious habit of mind with respect unto god and his worship ; and so is not a proper denomination for the worship it self , or of any evil or crime in it . but yet , if it were worth contending about , i could easily manifest , that according to the use of the word by good authors in all ages , men have been charged with that crime , from the kind and nature of the worship it self observed by them . and when st. paul charged the athenians with an excess in superstition , it was from the multiplication of their gods , and thronging them together , right or wrong , in the dedication of their altars . but these things belong not at all to our present design . let them , who enjoyn things unto an indispensible necessary observation in the worship of god , which are not by him prescribed therein , take care of their own minds , that they be free from the vice of superstition ; and they shall never be judged , or charged by me therewith . though i must say , that a multiplication of instances in this kind , as to their own observation , is the principle , if not the only way whereby men who own the true and proper object of religious worship , do or may manifest themselves to be influenced by that corrupt habit of mind ; so that they may relate unto superstition , as the effect to its cause . but the recrimination here insisted on , with respect unto them , who refuse admittance unto , or observance of things so enjoyned , is such as ought to be expected from provocations , and a desire of retortion . such things usually taste of the cask ; and are sufficiently weak and impertinent . for it is a mistake , that those charged do make , as 't is here expressed , any thing necessary not to be done ; or put any religion in the not doing of any thing , or the non-observance of any rites , orders , or ceremonies ; any other , than every one puts in his abstinence from what god forbids ; which is a part of our moral obedience . and the whole question , in this matter , is not , whether , as it is here phrased , god hath tyed up his creatures to nice and pettish laws ; laying a greater stress upon a doubtful or indifferent ceremony , than upon the great duty of obedience . but meerly , whether men are to observe in the worship of god , what they apprehend he hath enjoyned them ; and to abstain from what he doth forbid ; according to all the light that they have into his mind and will ; which enquiry , as i suppose , may be satisfied ; that they are so to practise , and so to abstain , without being lyable to the charge of superstition . no man can answer for the minds of other men ; nor know what depraved vicious habits and inclinations , they are subject unto . outward actions are all , that we are in any case allowed to pass judgement upon ; and of mens minds , as those actions are indications of them . let men therefore , observe and do in the worship of god whatever the lord christ hath commanded them ; and abstain from what he hath forbidden , whether in particular instances , or by general directive precepts and rules , by which means alone many things are capable of falling under a prohibition ; without the least thought of placing any worship of god in their abstinence from this or that thing in particular ; and i think , they need not much concern themselves in the charge of superstition , given in , or out , by any against them . for what is discoursed section 11. about will-worship , i cannot so far agree with our author , as i could in what passed before about superstition ; and that partly because i cannot discern him to be herein at any good agreement with himself . for superstition , he tells us , consists in the apprehensions of men , when their minds are possessed with weak and uncomly conceits of god , pag. 201. here , that will-worship is one sort of superstition ; and yet this will-worship consists in nothing else , than in mens making their own phancys and inventions necessary parts of religion , which outward actings are not coincident with the inward frame and habit of mind before described . and i do heartily wish , that some men could well free themselves from the charge of will worship , as it is here described by our author ; though cautelously expressed , to secure the concernments of his own interest from it . for although i will not call the things , they contend to impose on others in the worship of god , their phancys ; yet themselves acknowledge them to be their inventions : and when they make them necessary to be observed in the whole worship of god , as publick and stated ; and forbid the celebration of that worship without them ; when they declare their usefulness , and spiritual or mystical significancy in that worship or service , designed to honour god in or by their use ; setting up some of them to an exclusion of what christ hath commanded ; if i cannot understand , but that they make them necessary parts of gods worship , as to the actual observance of it , i hope they will not be angry with me : since i know the worst they can possibly with truth charge upon me in this matter , is , that i am not so wise , nor of so quick an understanding as themselves . neither doth our author well remove his charge from those whose defence he hath undertaken : for 〈◊〉 doth it only by this consideration ; tha● they do not make the things , by them introduced in the worship of god , to be parts of religion . they are not so , he saith , nor are made so by then . for this hinders not , but that they may be looked on as parts of divine worship ; seeing we are taught by the same hand , that external worship is no part of religion at all . and let him abide by what he closeth this section withall ; namely , that they make not any additions to the worship of god , but only provide , that what god hath required , be performed in an orderly and decent manner , and as to my concern , there shall be an end of this part of our controversie . the ensuing paragraphs about christian liberly ; adding to the commands of god ; and pope●y ; are of the same nature with those preceeding about superstition and will-worship . there is nothing new in them , but words ; and they may be briefly passed through . for the charge of popery , on the one side or other , i know nothing in it ; but that , when any thing is injoyned or imposed on mens practice in the worship of god , which is known to have been invented in and by the papal church during the time of its confessed aposta●y , it must needs beget prejudices against it in the minds of them , who consider the wayes , means , and ends of the fatal de●ection of that church ; and are jealous of a sinful complyance with it in any of those things . the recharge on those , who are said to set up a pope in every mans conscience , whilest they vest it with a power of countermanding the decrees of princes ; if no more be intended , by countermanding , but a refusal to observe their decrees , and yield obedience to them in things against their consciences , which is all can be pretended ; if it fall not on this author himself , as in some cases it doth ; and which by the certain conduct of right reason , must be extended to all , wherein the consciences of m●n are affected with the authority of god ; yet it doth on all christians in the world , that i know of , besides himself . for adding to the law of god , it is not charged on any , that they add to his commands ; as though they made their own divine , or part of his word and law : but only that they add in his worship to the things commanded by him , which being forbidden in the scripture , when they can free themselves from it , i shall rejoyce ; but as yet see not how they can so do . nor are there any , that i ko●● of , who set up any prohibitions of their ow● in or about the worship of god , or as thing thereunto pertaining , as is unduly and unrighteously pretended . there 〈◊〉 be indeed some things injoyned by me● which they do and must abstain from , 〈◊〉 they would do from any other sin whateve● but their consciences are regulated by ● prohibitions , but those of god himsel●● and things are prohibited and made sinf●● unto them , not only when in particular and by a specification of their instances they are forbidden ; but also when ther● lye general prohibitions against them ● any account whatever . some men indee● think , that if a particular prohibition of any thing might be produced , they would a● quiesce in it ; whilst they plead an ex●emption of sundry things from being in●cluded in general prohibitions ; althoug● they have the direct formal reason attending them , on which those prohibition● are founded . but it is to be feared , tha● this also is but a pretence . for let any thing be particularly forbidden , yet i● mens interest and superstition induce them to observe or retain it ; they will find out distinctions to evade the prohibition and retain the practice . what can be more directly forbidden , than the making or use●●g of graven images , in or about religious worship ? and yet we know how little ●ome men do acquiesce in that prohibi●●on . and it was the observation of a ●earned prelate of this nation , in his re●ection of the distinctions whereby they ●ndeavoured to countenance themselves in their idolatry ; that the particular instances of things forbidden in the second commandment , are not principally intended ; ●ut the general rule , of not adding any thing in the worship of god without his institution . non imago , saith he , non simulachrum prohibetur ; sed non facies tibi . what way , therefore , any thing becomes a sin unto any , be it by a particular or general prohibition ; be it from the scandal that may attend its practice ; unto him it is a sin . and it is a wild notion , that when any persons abstain from the practice of that in the worship of god , which to them is sinful as so practised , they add prohibitions of their own to the commands of god. the same is to be said concerning christian liberty . no man , that i know of , makes things indifferent to be sinful , as is pretended ; nor can any man in his right wits do so . for none can entertain contradictory notions of the same things , at the same time : as those are , that the fa●● things are indifferent , that is , not sin●●● and sinful . but this some say ; that this in their own nature indifferent , that 〈◊〉 absolutely so , may be yet relatively 〈◊〉 lawful ; because with respect unto that ●●●●lation forbidden of god. to set up altar of old for a civil memorial in a place , was a thing indifferent : but to 〈◊〉 up an altar to offer sacrifices on , who the tabernacle was not , was a sin . it● indifferent for a man that understands th● language , to read the scripture in la●●● or in english : but to read it in latine u● a congregation that understands it 〈◊〉 as a part of gods worship , would be 〈◊〉 nor doth our christian liberty consist al●● in our judgement of the indifferency things in their own nature , made nec●●●sary to practice by commands , as hath b● shewed . and if it doth so , the jews h● that priviledge as much as christians . a● they are easily offended , who complain● that their christian liberty , in the p●●ctice of what they think meet in the w●●ship of god , is intrenched on , by such , leaving them to their pleasure , because their apprehension of the will of god the contrary , cannot comply with them their practice . the close of this chapter is designed to the removal of an objection , pretended to be weighty and difficult ; but indeed made so meerly by the novel opinions advanced by this author . for laying aside all respect unto some uncouth principles broached in this discourse , there is scarce a christian child of ten years old , but can resolve the difficulty pretended , and that according to the mind of god. for it is supposed , that the magistrate may establish a worship that is idolatrous and superstitious : and an enquiry is made thereon , what the subject shall do in that case ? why ? where lyes the difficulty ? why , saith he , in this case they must be either rebels , or idolaters . if they obey , they sin against god : if they disobey , they sin against their soveraign . according to the principles hither to received in christian religion , any one would reply , and say , no : for it is certain , that men must obey god , and not contract the guilt of such horrible sins , as idolatry and superstition ; but in so doing they are neither rebels against their ruler , nor do sin against him . it is true , they must quieily and patiently submit to what they may suffer from him : but they are in so doing guilty of no rebellion nor sin against him . did ever any christian yet so much as call it into question , whether the primitive christians were rebels , and sinned against their rulers because they would not obey those edicts , whereby they established idolatrous worship ? or did any one ever think , that they had a difficult case of conscience to resolve in that matter ? they were indeed accused by the pagans as rebels against the emperours ; but no christian every yet thought their case to have been doubtful . but all this difficulty ariseth from the making of two gods , where there ought to be but one . and this renders the case so perplexed , that , for my part , i cannot see directly , how it is determined by our author . sometimes he speaks , as though it were the duty of subjects to comply with the establishment of idolatry supposed , as pag. 214 , 215. for with respect , as i suppose it is , to the case as by him stated , that he sayes ; men must not withdraw their obedience : and better submit unto the unreasonable impositions of nero or caligula , than to hazard the dissolution of the state. sometimes he seems not to oblige them in conscience to practise according to the publick prescription ; but only pleads , that the magistrate may punish them , if they do not ; and sain would have it thought , that he may do so justly . but these things are certain unto us in this matter , and are so many 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in christian religion ; that if the supream magistrate command any thing in the worship of god that is idolatrous , we are not to practise it accordingly ; because we must obey god rather than men . nextly , that in our refusal of complyance with the magistrates commands , we do neither rebel nor sin against him . for god hath not , doth not at any time , shut us up in any condition unto a necessity of sinning . thirdly , that in case the magistrate shall think meet , through his own mistakes and misapprehensions , to punish , destroy and burn them alive , who shall not comply with his edicts , as did nebuchadnezzar ; or as they did in england in times of popery ; after all honest and lawful private wayes of self-preservation used , which we are obliged unto ; we are quietly and patiently to submit to the will of god in our sufferings , without opposing or resisting by force , or stirring up seditions or tumults , to the disturbance of publick peace . but our author hath elsewhere provided a full solution of this difficulty , chap. 8. p. 308. where he tells us , that in cases and disputes of a publick concern , private men are not properly sui juris ; they have no power over thi● actions ; they are not to be directed by thei● own judgements , or determined by their ou● wills ; but by the commands and determina●●ons of the publick conscience . and if the● be any sin in the command , he that imposed i● shall answer for it , and not i whose duty it i● to obey . the commands of authority will warrant my obedience , my obedience will hall●● or at least excuse my action ; and so secure 〈◊〉 from sin if not from errour , because i folle● the best guide and most probable direction , 〈◊〉 am capable of ; and though i may mistake , my integrity shall preserve my innocence ; and in all doubtfull and disputable cases it is better to err with authority , than to be in the right against it . when he shall produce any o●● divine writer , any of the ancient fathers , any sober schoolmen , or casuists , any learned modern divines , speaking at this rate , or giving countenance unto this direction given to men , for the regulating of their moral actions , it shall be farther attended unto . i know some such thing is muttered amongst the pleaders for blind obedience upon vowes voluntarily engaged into , for that purpose . but as it is acknowledged by themselves , that by those vowes , they deprive themselves of that right and liberty which naturally belongs unto them , as unto all other men , wherein they place much of the merit of them ; so by others those vowes themselves , with all the pretended bruitish obedience that proceeds from them , are sufficiently evidenced to be an horrible abomination , and such as make a ready way for the perpetration of all villanies in the world , to which purpose that kind of obedience hath been principally made use of . but these things are extreamly fond ; and not only , as applyed unto the worship of god , repugnant to the gospel , but also in themselves to the law of our creation , and that moral dependance on god , which is indispensible unto all individuals of mankind . we are told in the gospel , that every one is to be fully perswaded in his own mind ; that whatever is not of faith is sin ; that we are not to be ( in such things ) the servants of men ; that other mens leading of us amiss , whoever they are , will not excuse us ; for if the blind lead the blind , both shall fall into the ditch ; and he that followeth , is as sure to perish as he that leadeth . the next guids of the souls and consciences of men , are doubtless those who speak unto them in the name of god , or preachers of the gospel . yet are all the disciples of christ , frequently warned to take heed that they be not deceived by any , under that pretence , but diligently examining what is proposed unto them , they discern in themselves what is good and evil . nor doth the great apostle himself require us to be followers of him , any further than he was a follower of christ. they will find small relief , who at the last day shall charge their sins on the commands of others , whatever hope to the contrary they are put into by our author . neither will it be any excuse that we have done according to the precepts of men , if we have done contrary to those of god. ephraim , of old , was broken in judgement , because he willingly walked after the commandment , hos. 5. 14 but would not his obedience hallow , or at least excuse his action ? and would not the authority of the king warrant his obedience ? or must ephraim now answer for the sin , and not be only that imposed the command ? but it seems that when jeroboam sinned , who at that time had this goodly creature of the publick conscience in keeping , he made israel sin also , who obeyed him . it is moreover a brave attempt to assert that private men with respect to any of their moral actions , are not properly sui juris , have no power over their actions , are not to be directed by their own judgements , or determined by their own wills . this is circes rod , one stroke whereof turned men into hoggs . for to what purpose serve their understandings , their judgements , their wills , if not to guide and determine them in their actions ? i think he would find hard work , that should go about to perswade men to put out their own eyes , or blind themselves , that they might see all by one publick eye . and i am sure it is no less unreasonable , to desire them to reject their own wills , understandings , and judgements , to be lead and determined by a publick conscience ; considering especially that that publick conscience it self is a meer tragelaphus , which never had existence in rerum natura . besides , suppose men should be willing to accept of this condition of renouncing their own understandings and judgements , from being their guides as to their moral actions ; i fear it will be found that indeed they are not able so to do . mens understandings , and their consciences , are placed in them by him who made them , to rule in them and over their actions in his name , and with respect unto their dependance on him . and let men endeavour it whilest they please , they shall never be able utterly to cast of this yoke of god , and destroy this order of things , which by him inlaid in the principles of all rational beings . men , whilest they are me● in things that have a moral good or e●● in them or adhering to them , must be guided and determined by their own understandings whether they will or no. a● if by any means , they stisle the actings 〈◊〉 them at present , they will not avoid the judgement , which according to them , shi● pass upon them at the last day . but the● things may elsewhere be farther pursue . in the mean time the reader may take thi● case as it is determined by the learned p●●late before mentioned , in his dialogue abou● subjection and obedience against the p●pists , whose words are as follow . par. 3 pag. 297. philand . if the prince establish any religion , whatever it be , you must by you● oath obey it . theoph. we must not rebel● and take arms against the prince ; but will reverence and humility serve god before the prince , and that is nothing against our oath . philand . then is not the prince supream . theoph . why so . philand . your selves are superiour , when you serve whom you list . theoph. as thought to serve god according to his will , were to serve whom we list , and not whom princes and all others ought to serve . philand . but you will be judges , when god is well served , and when not . theoph. if you can excuse us before god when you mistead us , we will serve him as you shall appoint us ; otherwise if every man shall answer for himself , good reason he be master of his own conscience , in that which toucheth him so near , and no man shall excuse him for . philand . this is to make every man supream judge of religion . theoph. the poorest wretch that is , may be supreme governour of his own heart ; princes rule the publick and external actions of their countreyes , but not the consciences of men . this in his dayes was the doctrine of the church of england ; and as was observed before , no person who then lived in it , knew better what was so . the sole enquiry remaining is , whether the magistrate , having established such a religion , as is idolatrous or superstitious , may justly and lawfully punish and destroy his subjects , for their non-complyance therewithall ? this is that , which , if i understand him , our author would give countenance unto ; contrary to the common sense of all christians , yea of common sense it self . for wherereas he interweaves his discourse with suppositions , that men may mistake in religion , and abuse it ; all such interpositions are purely sophistical , seeing the case proposed to resolution , which ought in the whole to be precisely attended unto , is about the refusal to observe and practise a religion idolatrous or superstitious . of the like nature is that argument , which alone he makes use of here and elsewhere , to justifie his principles ; namely , the necessity of government ; and how much better the worst government is , and the most depraved in its administration , than anarchy or confusion . for as this by all mankind is unquestioned ; so i do not think there is any one among them , who can tell how to use this concession to our authors purpose . doth it follow , that because magistrates cannot justly nor righteously prescribe an idolatrous religion , and compel their subjects to the profession and obedience of it ; and because the subjects cannot , nor ought to yield obedience therein , because of the antecedent and superiour power of god over them ; that therefore anarchy or confusion must be preferred before such an administration of government ? let the magistrate command what he will in religion , yet whilest he attends unto the ends of all civil government , that government must needs be every way better than none ; and is by private christians to be born with , and submitted unto , untill god in his providence shall provide relief . the primitive christians lived some ages in the condition described ; refusing to observe the religion required by law ; and exercising themselves in the worship of god , which was strictly forbidden . and yet neither anarchy , nor confusion , nor any disturbance of publick tranquility did ensue thereon . so did the protestants here in england in the dayes of queen mary , and sometime before . the argument , which he endeavours in these discourses to give an answer unto , is only of this importance . if the supream magistrate may command what religion he pleaseth , and enact the observation of it under destructive penalties ; whereas the greatest part of magistrates in the world will and do prescribe such religions and wayes of divine worship , as are idolatrous or superstitious , which their subjects are indispensibly bound in conscience not to comply withall ; then is the magistrate justified in the punishing of men for their serving of god as they ought ; and they may suffer as evil doers , in what they suffer as christians . this , all the world over , will justifie them that are uppermost , and have power in their hands , ( on no other ground , but because they are so , and have so , ) in this oppressions and destructions of them , th● being under them in civil respects , d● dissent from them in things religious , no● whether this be according to the mind 〈◊〉 god or no , is left unto the judgement 〈◊〉 all indifferent men . we have , i confes●● i know not how many expressions inte●posed in this discourse , as was observed about sedition , troubling of publick peace men being turbulent against prescribe rules of worship , whereof if he pretend that every peaceable dissenter and dissent from what is publickly established in religious worship , are guilty , he is a pleasa●●● man in a disputation ; and , if he do any thing , he determines his case proposed o● the part of complyance with idolatro● and superstitious worship . if he do not so ; the mention of them in this place it very importune and unseasonable . all men acknowledge , that such miscarriages and practices may be justly coerced and punished . but what is this to a bare refusal to comply in any idolatrous worship , and peacable practice of what god doth require , as that which he will accept and own ? but our author proceeds to find out many pretences , on the account whereof , persons whom he acknowledgeth to be innocent and guiltless , may be punished . and though their apprehensions in religion be not , as he saith , so much their crime , as their infelicity , yet there is no remedy , but it must expose them to the publick rods and axes , pag. 219. i have heard of some wise and righteous princes , who have affirmed , that they had rather let twenty nocent persons go free , than punish or destroy one that is innocent . this seems to render them more like him , whose vice-gerents they are ; than to seek out colourable reasons for the punishment of them , whom they know to be innocent ; which course is here suggested unto them . such advice might be welcome to him , whom men called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , clay mingled and leavened with blood ; others no doubt will abhor it , and detest it . but what spirit of meekness and mercy our author is acted by , he discovereth in the close of this chapter , pag. 223. for , saith he , it is easily imaginable how an honest and well-meaning man may , through meer ignorance , fall into such errours , which , though god will pardon , yet governours must punish . his integrity may expiate the crime , but cannot prevent the mischief of his errour . nay so easie is it for men to deserve to be punished for their consciences , that there is no nation in the world , in which , ( were government rightly understood and duty managed , ) mistakes and abuses of religion would not supply the gallies with vastly greater numbers , than villany . there is no doubt , but that if phaeton get into the chariot of the sun , the world will be sufficiently fired . and if every absalom who thinks he understands government and the due management of it , better than its present possessours , were enthroned , there would be havock enough made among mankind . but blessed be god , who in many places , hath disposed it into such hands , as under whom , those who desire to fear and serve him according to his will , may yet enjoy a more tolerable condition than such adversaries are pleased withall . that honest and well-meaning men , falling into errours about the worship of god , through their ownignorance , wherein their integrity may expiate their crime ; must be punished , must not be pardoned ; looks , methinks , with an appearance of more severity , than it is the will of god , that the world should be governed by ; seeing one end of his instituting and appointing government among men , is , to represent himself in his power , goodness and wisdom unto them . and he that shall conjoyn another assertion of our author , namely , that it is better and more eligible to tolerate debaucheries and immoralities in conversation , than liberty of conscience for men to worship god according to those apprehensions which they have of his will ; with the close of this chapter , that it is so easie for men to deserve to be punished for their consciences , that there is no nation in the world , in which , were government rightly understood , and duly managed , mistakes and abuses of religion would not supply the gallies with vastly greater numbers , than villany ; will easily judge with what spirit , from what principles , and with what design , this whole discourse was composed . but i find my self , utterly besides and beyond my intention , engaged in particular controversies : and finding by the prospect i have taken of what remains in the treatise under consideration ; that it is of the same nature and importance , with what is past and a full continuation of those opprobrious reproaches of them whom he opposeth ; and open discoveries of earnest desires after their trouble and ruine , which we have now sufficiently been inured unto ; i shall choose rather here to break off this discourse , than further to pursue the ventilation of those differences , wherein i shall not willingly , or of choice , at any time engage . besides , what is in the whole discourse of especial and particular controversie , may be better handled apart by it self : as probably ere long it will be ; if this new representation of old pretences , quickned by invectives , and improved beyond all bounds and measures formerly fixt or given unto them , be judged to deserve a particular consideration . in the mean time this author is more concerned than i , to consider , whether those bold incursions , that he hath made upon the antient boundaries and rules of religion , and the consciences of men ; those contemptuous revilings of his adversaries , which he hath almost fill'd the pages of his book withal ; those discoveries he hath made of the want of a due sense of the weaknesses and infirmities of men , which himself wants not ; and of fierce , implacable , sanguinary thoughts against them , who appeal to the judgement seat of god , that they do not in any thing dissent from him or others , but out of a reverence of the authority of god , and for fear of provoking his holy majesty ; his incompassionate insulting overmen in distresses and sufferings , will add to the comfort of that account , which he must shortly make before his lord and ours . to close up this discourse ; the principal design of the treatise thus far surveyed , is to perswade or seduce soveraign princes , or supream magistrates unto two evils , that are indeed inseparable , and equally pernicious to themselves and others . the one of these is , to invade or usurp the throne of god ; and the other , to behave themselves therein unlike him . and where the one leads the way , the other will assuredly follow . the empire over religion , the souls and consciences of men in the worship of god , hath hitherto been esteemed to belong unto god alone , to be a peculiar jewel in his glorious diadem . neither can it spring from any other fountain but absolute and infinite supremacy , such as belongs to him , as he hath alone , who is the first cause and last end of all . all attempts to educe it from , or to resolve it into any other principle , are vain and will prove abortive . but here the sons of men are enticed to say with him of old ; we will ascend into heaven ; we will exalt our throne above the stars of god ; we will sit upon the mount of the congregation , in the sides of the north ; we will ascend above the heights of the clouds ; we will be like the most high. for wherein can this be effected ? what ladders have men to climb personally into heaven ? and who shall attend them in their attempt ? it is an assuming of a dominion over the souls and consciences of men in the worship of god , wherein and whereby this may be pretended , and therein alone . and all this description of the invasion of the throne of god , whence he , who did so , is compared to lucifer , who sought supremacy in heaven ; is but the setting up of his power in and over the church in its worship , which was performed in the temple , the mount of the congregation , and in sion , on the north of the city of jerusalem , isaiah 14. this now princes are perswaded unto : and can scarce escape without reproaches , where they refuse or omit the attempting of it . suppose they be prevailed with , to run the hazzard and adventure of such an undertaking ; what is it that they are thereon perswaded unto ? how are they directed to behave themselves , after they have assumed a likeness unto the most high , and exalted themselves to his throne ? plainly that which is now expected from them , is nothing but wrath , fury , indignation , persecution , destructions , banishments , ruine of the persons , and families of men innocent , peaceable , fearing god , and useful in their several stations , to satisfie their own wills , or to serve the interests of other men . is this to act like god , whose power and authority they have assumed , or like to his greatest adversary ? doth god deal thus in this world , in his rule over the souls of men ? or is not this that , which is set out in the fable of phaeton , that he , who takes the chariot of the sun , will cast the whole world into a combustion ? so he , who of old is supposed to have affected the throne of god , hath ever since acted that cruelty to his power , which manifests what was his design therein , and what would have been the end of his coveted soveraignty . and whoever at any time shall take to himself that power , that is peculiar to god , will find himself left in the exercise of it , to act utterly unlike him , yea contrary unto him . power , they say , is a liquor , that let it be put into what vessel you will , it is ready to overflow : and as useful as it is , as nothing is more to mankind in this world , yet when it is not accompanied with a due proportion of wisdom and goodness , it is troublesome if not pernicious to them concerned in it . the power of god is infinite , and his soveraignty absolute : but the whole exercise of those glorious dreadful properties of his nature , is regulated by wisdom and goodness no less infinite than themselves . and as he hath all power over the souls and consciences of men ; so he exercises it with that goodness , grace , clemency , patience and forbearance , which i hope we are all sensible of . if there be any like him , equal unto him in these things , i will readily submit the whole of my religion and conscience unto him , without the least hesitation . and if god , in his dominion and rule over the souls and consciences of men , do exercise all patience , benignity , long-suffering and mercy ; for it is his compassion that we are not consumed ; doth he not declare , that none is meet to be entrusted with that power and rule , but they , who have those things like himself : at least , that in what they are or may be concerned in it , they express , and endeavour to answer his example . indeed soveraign princes and supream magistrates are gods vice-gerents , and are called gods on the earth ; to represent his power and authority unto men in government , within the bounds prefixed by himself unto them , which are the most extensive that the nature of things is capable of ; and in so doing , to conform themselves and their actings to him and his , as he is the great monarch , the proto-type of all rule and the exercise of it , in justice , goodness , clemency and benignity ; that so the whole of what they do may tend to the relief , comfort , refreshment and satisfaction of mankind , walking in wayes of peace and innocency , in answer unto the ends of their rule , is their duty , their honour and their safety . and to this end , doth god usually and ordinarily furnish them with a due proportion of wisdom and understanding : for they also are of god ; he gives them an understanding suited and commensurate to their work ; that what they have to do , shall not ordinarily be too hard for them : nor shall they be tempted to mistakes and miscarriages from the work they are imployed about , which he hath made to be their own . but if any of them shall once begin to exceed their bounds , to invade his throne , and to take to themselves the rule of any province , belonging peculiarly and solely to the kingdom of heaven ; therein a conformity unto god in their actings is not to be expected . for be they never so amply furnished with all abilities of mind and soul for the work , and those duties which are their own , which are proper unto them : yet they are not capable of any such stores of wisdom and goodness , as should fit them for the work of god , that which peculiarly belongs to his authority and power . his power is infinite ; his authority is absolute ; so are his wisdom , goodness and patience . thus he rules religion , the souls and consciences of men . and when princes partake in these things , infinite power , infinite wisdom , and infinite goodness , they may assume the same rule and act like him . but to pretend an interest in the one , and not in the other , will set them in the greatest opposition to him . those therefore , who can prevail with magistrates to take the power of god over religion and the souls of me● in their observance of it , need never fea● that when they have so done , they will imitate him in his patience , clemency , meekness , forbearance and benignity ; for they are no way capable of these things in a due proportion to that power which is not their own ; however they may be eminently furnished for that which is so . thus have we known princes , ( such as trajan , adrian , julian of old ) whilst they kept themselves to their proper sphere , ordering and disposing the affairs of this world , and all things belonging to publick peace , tranquility and welfare , to have been renowned for their righteousness , moderation and clemency , and thereby made dear to mankind : who , when they have fallen into the excess of assuming divine power over the consciences of men and the worship of god , have left behind them such footsteps and remembrances of rage , cruelty and blood in the world , as make them justly abhorred to all generations . this alone is the seat and posture , wherein the powers of the earth , are delighted with the sighs and groans of innocent persons , with the fears and dread of them , that are and would be at peace ; with the punishment of their obedient subjects ; and the binding of those hands of industry , which would willingly employ themselves for the publick good and welfare . take this occasion out of the way , and there is nothing that should provoke soveraign magistrates , to any thing that is grievous , irksome or troublesome to men peaceable and innocent ; nothing that should hinder their subjects from seeing the presence of god with them in their rule , and his image upon them in their authority , causing them to delight in the thoughts of them , and to pray continually for their continuance and prosperity . it may be some may be pleased for a season with s●●●rities against dissenters , such as concerning whom we discourse ; who falsely suppose their interest to lye therein . it may be they may think meet , rather to have all debaucheries of life and conversation tollerated , than liberty for peaceable men to worship god , according to their light and perswasion of his mind and will ; as the multitude was pleased of old with the cry of , release barrabas , and let jesus be crucified ; magistrates themselves will at length perceive , how little they are beholding to any , who importunately suggest unto them fierce and sanguinary connsels in these matters . it is a saying of maximilian the emperour celebrated in many authors ; nullum , said he , enormins peccatum dari potest , quam in conscientias imperium exercere velle . qui enim conscientiis imperare volunt , ii arcem caeli invadunt , & plerumque terrae possessionem perdunt . magistrates need not fear , but that the open wickedness and bloody crimes of men , will supply them with objects to be examples and testimonies of their justice and severity . and methinks it should not be judged an unequal petition by them , who rule in the stead and fear of god , that those who are innocent in their lives , useful in their callings and occasions , peaceable in the land , might not be exposed to trouble , only because they design and endeavour , according to their light , which they are invincibly perswaded to be from god himself , to take care , that they perish not eternally . however i know , i can mind them of advice , which is ten thousand times more their interest to attend unto , than to any that is tendred in the treatise we have had under consideration , and it is that given by a king , unto those that should pertake of the like royal authority with himself ; psalm 2. 10 , 11 , 12. be wise now therefore , o ye kings ; be instructed , ye judges of the earth . serve the lord with fear , and rejoyce with trembling . kiss the son , left he be angry , and ye perish from the way , when his wrath is kindled but a little ; blessed are all they that put their trust in him . and he who can inform me , how they can render themselves more like unto god , more acceptable unto him , and more the concern and delight of mankind , than by relieving peaceable and innocent persons from their fears , cares , and solicitousness about undeserved evils , or from the suffering of such things , which no mortal man can convince them , that they have merited to undergo or suffer ; he shall have my thanks for his discovery . and what is it , that we treat about ? what is it , that a little truce and peace is desired unto , and pleaded for ? what are the concerns of publick good therein ? let a little sedate consideration be exercised about these things , and the causelesness of all the wrath we have been conversing withall , will quickly appear . that there is a sad degeneracy of christianity in the world , amongst the professors of christian religion , from the rule , spirit , worship and conversation of the first christians , who in all things observed and expressed the nature , vertue , and power of the gospel , all must acknowledge , and many do complain . whatever of this kind comes to pass , and by what means soever , it is the interest and design of them , who are present gainers by it in the world , to keep all things in the posture , that yields them their advantage . hence upon every appearance of an alteration , or apprehension that any will desert the wayes of worship , wherein they have been engaged , they are cast into a storm of passion and outrage , like demetrius and the rest of the silver-smiths , pretending divisions , present settlement , ancient veneration , and the like ; when their gain and advantage , whether known or unknown to themselves , is that , which both influenceth them with such a frame of spirit , and animates them to actings suitable thereunto . thus in the ages past there was so great and universal an apostacy , long before fore-told , overspreading christianity , that by innumerable sober persons it was judged intolerable : and that , if men had any regard to the gospel of christ , their own freedom in the world , or everlasting blessedness , there was a necessity of a reformation , and the reduction of the profession of christian religion unto some nearer conformity to the primitive times and pattern . into this design sundry kings , princes , and whole nations engaged themselves , namely what lay in them , and according to the sentiments of truth they had received , to reduce religion unto its pristine glory . what wrath , clamours , fury , indignation , revenge , malice , this occasioned in them whose subsistence , wealth , advantages , honour and reputation , all lay in preserving things in their state of defection and apostacy , is known to all the world , hence therefore arose bloody persecutions in all , and fierce wars in many nations , where this thing was attempted ; stirred up by the craft and cruelty of them , who had mastered and managed the former declensions of religion to their own use and advantage . the guilt of which mischiefs and miseries unto mankind , is by a late writer amongst our selves , contrary to all the monuments of times past , and confessions of the adversaries themselves , endeavoured to be cast on the reformers . however a work of reformation was carried on in the world , and succeeded in many places : in none more eminently , than in this nation wherein we live . that the end aimed at , which was professedly the reduction of religion to its antient beauty and glory in truth and worship , is attained amongst us , some perhaps do judge , and absolutely acquiesce therein : and for my part i wish we had more did so . for , be it spoken , as i hope , without offence on the part of others , so without fear of giving it , or having it taken , on my own ; there are among many , such evident declensions from the first established reformation , towards the old or a new , and it may be worse apostacy ; such an apparent weariness of the principal doctrines and practices , which enlivened the reformation ; as i cannot but be troubled at , and wherewith many are offended . for although i do own a dissent from some present establishments in the church of england , yet i have that honour for the first reformers of it , and reformation it self ; that love to the truth declared and established in it ; that respect to the work and grace of god , in the conversion of the souls of thousands by the ministry of the word in these nations ; that i cannot but grieve continually to see the acknowledged doctrines of it deserted , its ancient principles and practices derided , its pristine zeal despised by some , who make advantage of its outward constitution ; inheriting the profits , emoluments and wealth , which the bounty of our kings have endowed it withal ; but not its spirit , its love , its stedfastness in owning the protestant truth and cause . but to return ; for these things may better elsewhere be complained of , seeing they relate only to particular persons . that what is done in reformation be established ; that any farther publick work of the same nature be attempted ; or the retrivement of what is done to its original condition and estate , belongs to the determination of the supream magistrate , and to that alone . private persons have no call , no warrant to attempt any thing unto those purposes . however many there are , who dislike some ecclestastical constitutions and modes of outward worship , which have been the matter of great contests from the first reformation : but much more dislike the degeneracy from the spirit , way and principles of the first reformers before mentioned , which in some at present , they apprehend , and therefore though many seem to be at a great distance from the present established forms of the church of england ; yet certainly all who are humble and peaceable , when they shall see the ministry of the church , as in former dayes in some measure , acted rightly and zealously towards the known ends of it , and such as are undeniably by all acknowledged , namely , the conviction of the world , the conversion of souls , and edification of them that do believe ; and the discipline of it exercised , in a conformily at least to the rule of the discipline of the secular powers of the earth , not to be a terrour to the good , but to them that do evil ; and in these things a demonstration of the meekness , humility , patience , forbearance , condescension to the weakness , mistakes , errings and wandrings of others , which the gospel doth as plainly and evidently require of us , as it doth , that we should believe in jesus christ ; will continually pray for its prosperity , though they cannot themselves joyn with it in sundry of its practices and wayes . in the mean time , i say , such persons as these , in themselves and for their own concerns , do think it their duty , not absolutely to take up in what hath been attained amongst us ; much less in what many are degenerated into ; but to endeavour the reduction of their practice in the worship of god , to what was first appointed by jesus christ ; as being perswaded , that he requires it of them ; and being convinced , that in the unspeakable variety that is in humane constitutions , rest unto their souls and consciences is not otherwise to be obtained . and if at the same time they endeavour not to reduce the manner and course of their conversation to the same rule and example , by which they would have their worship of god regulated ; they are hypocrites . short enough , no doubt , they come in both of perfection ; but both they profess to aim equally at . and herein alone can their consciences find rest and peace . in the doctrine of faith , consented on in the first reformation , and declared in the allowed writings of the church of england , they agree with others ; and wish with all their hearts they had more to agree withall . only they cannot come up to the practice of some things in the worship of god ; which being confessedly of humane prescription , their obedience in them would lye in a perfect contradiction to their principal design before mentioned . for those things , being chosen out from a great multitude of things of the same nature , invented by those , whose authority was rejected in the first reformation , or reduction of religion from its catholick apostacy ; they suppose , cannot justly be imposed on them ; they are sure , cannot be honestly received by them , whilest they design to reduce themselves unto the primitive rules and examples of obedience , in this design they profess themselves ready to be ruled by , and to yield subjection unto any truth or direction , that can or may be given them from the word of god , or any principles lawfully from thence educed . how their conviction is at present attempted , let the book under consideration , and some late unparallel'd and illegal acts of violence , conformable to the spirit of it , be a testimony . but in the management of their design , they proceed on no other principles , than those of the libetty of judgement ( of di●eretion or discerning they call it , ) for the determining of themselves and their own practices , in what they believe and prosess about religion , and the liberty of their consciences from all humane impositions , than were owned , pleaded and contended for by the first reformers , and the most learned defenders of the church of england , in their disputations against the papists ; those they will stand to , and abide by : yea than what are warranted by the principles of our nature and constitution ; for no man practiseth any thing , nor can practise it , but according to his own will and choice . now in these things , in their principle , or in their management of it , it may be they are mistaken ; it may be they are in an errour ; or under many mistakes and errours . but from their integrity they know themselves innocent , even in their mistakes . and it is in the nature of men to think strange of sedate violences , that befall them without their demerit , and of suffering by law without any guilt . their design of reducing themselves in worship and conversation to the primitive pattern , they openly avow : nor dare any directly condemn that design ; nor can they be convinced of insincerity in what they profess . and shall they they be destroyed , if they miss it in some matters of smaller concernment ? which , whatever some may boast of , is not hitherto tolerably proved . shall now their dissent in religious observances on this occasion , and those , and that about things mostly and chiefly , if not only , that appear neither name nor thing in the scripture , be judged a crime not to be expiated , but by their ruine ? are immoralities or vicious debaucheries rather to be tolerated , or exempted from punishment , than such a dissent ? what place of scripture in the old or new testament , which of the ancient fathers of the church , do speak at this rate ? opinions inconsistent with publick tranquility , with the general rules of moral duties in all relations and conditians ; practices of any tendency in themselves to political disturbances , are by none pleaded for . meer dissent it self , with different observances in the outward worship of god , is by some pretended indeed to be a civil disturbance . it hath alwayes been so by some , even by those , whose own established wayes have been superstitious and idolatrous . but wise men begin to smile , when they hear private interest pleaded as publick good , and the affections which it begets , as the common reason of things . and these pretences have been by all parties , at one time or another , refuted and discarded . let the merit of the cause be stated and considered , which is truly as above proposed , and no other : set aside prejudices , animosities , advantages from things past and by-gone in political disorders and tumults , wherein it hath no concern ; and it will quickly appear how little it is , how much , if possible , less than nothing , that is or can be pleaded for the countenancing of external severity in this case . doth it suite the spirit of the gospel , or his commands , to destroy good wheat , for standing , as is supposed , a little out of order , who would not have men pluck up the tares , but to let them stand quietly in the field untill harvest ? doth it answer his mind to destroy his disciples , who profess to love and obey him , from the earth ; who blamed his disciples of old for desiring to destroy the samaritans , his enemies , with fire from heaven ? we are told , that he , who was born after the flesh , persecuted him , who was born after the promise : and a work becoming him it was . and if men are sincere disciples of christ , though they may fall into some mistakes and errours , the outward persecuting of them on that account , will be found to be of the works of the flesh . it is certain , that for those in particular , who take upon them , in any place or degree , to be ministers of the gospel , there are commands for meekness , patience and forbearance , given unto them . and it is one of the greatest duties incumbent on them , to express the lord jesus christ , in the frame of his mind and spirit unto men ; and that eminently in his meekness and lowliness , which he calls us all in an especial manner to learn of him . a peculiar conformity also to the gospel , to the holy law of love , self-denyal and condescention , is required of them ; that they may not in their spirits , wayes and actings , make a false representation of him , and that which they profess . i know not therefore whence it is come to pass , that this sort of men do principally , if not only stir up magistrates and rulers to laws , seventies , penalties , coercions , imprisonments , and the like outward means of fierce and carnal power , against those , who in any thing dissent from them in religion . generally abroad throughout christendome , those , in whose hands the civil powers are , and who may be supposed to have inclinations unto the severe exercise of that power which is their own , such as they think possibly may become them as men and governours , would be inclineable to moderation towards dissenters , were they not excited , provoked and wearied by them , who pretend to represent jesus christ to the world ; as if any earthly potentate had more patience , mercy and compassion , than he look on those lutheran countreyes where they persecute the calvinists ; it is commonly declared and proved , that the migistrates , for the most part , would willingly bear with those dissenters , were they not stirred up continually to severities by them , whose duty it were to perswade them to clemency and moderation , if in themselves they were otherwise enclined . and this hath ruined the interest of the protestant religion in germany , in a great measure . do men , who destroy no more than they can , nor punish more than they are able , and cry out for assistence where their own arm fails them , render themselves hereby like to their heavenly father ? is this spirit from above ? doth that , which is so , teach men to harrase the consciences of persons , their brethren and fellow-servants , on every little difference in judgement and practice about religious things ? whom will such men fulfill the commands of patience , forbearance , waiting , meekness , condescension , that the gospel abounds with , towards ? is it only towards them , who are of the same mind with themselves ? they stand in no need of them : they stand upon the same terms of advantage with themselves . and for those that dissent , arise , kill , and eat , seems to be the only command to be observed towards them . and why all this fierceness and severity ? let men talk what they please , those aimed at , are peaceable in the land ; and resolve to be so , whatever may befall them . they despise all contrary insinuations . that they are , in their stations severally , usefull to the common-wealth , and collectively in their industry and trading , of great consideration to publick welfare , is now apparent unto all indifferent men . it is or must be , if it be for any thing , ( as surely no men delight in troubling others for trouble sake ; ) for their errors and mistakes , in and about the worship of god. all other pleass are meer pretences of passion and interest . but who judgeth them to be so guilty of errors ? why those , that stir up others to their hurt and disquietment . but is their judgement infallible ? how if they should be mistaken themselves in their judgement ? if they are , they do not only err , but persecute others for the truth . and this hath been the general issue of this matter in the world . error hath persecuted truth ten times , for truths once persecuting of error . but suppose the worst ; suppose them in errors and under mistakes ; let it be proved , that god hath appointed , that all men who so err , should be so punished , as they would have non-conformists , and though i should believe them in the truth , i would never more plead their cause . and would these men be willingly thus dealt withall , by those who judge , or may judge them to err ? it may be some would ; because they have a good security , that none shall ever judge them so to do , who hath power to punish them : for they will be of his mind . but sure none can be so absolutely confined unto themselves , nor so universally in all their affections and desires unto their own personal concerns , as not to have a compassion for some or other , who in one place or other are judged to err by them , who have power over them to affix what guilt they please unto that , which is not their crime . and will they justifie all their oppressors ? all men have an equal right in this matter , nothing is required , but being uppermost , to make a difference . this is that , which hath turned christendome into a shambles ; whilest every prevailing party , hath judged it their duty and interest , to destroy them that do dissent from them . once more ; what name of sin or wickedness will they find to affix to these errors ? nullum criminis nomen , nist nominis crimen . no man errs willingly , nor ought to be thought to tempt or seduce his own will , when his error is to his disadvantage . and he is innocent whose will is not guilty . moreover , those pretended errors in our case , are not in matters of faith ; nor for the most part , in or about the worship of god , or that which is acknowledged so to be : but in or about those things , which some think it convenient to add unto it , or conjoyn with it . and what quietness , what peace is there like to be in the world , whilst the sword of vengeance must be continually drawn about these things ? counsels of peace , patience , and forbearance , would certainly better become professors of the gospel , and preachers of everlasting peace than such passionate and furious enterprizes for severity , as we meet withal . and i no way doubt , but that all generous noble and heroick spirits , such as are not concerned in the impaleed peculiar interest and advantages of some , and do scorn the pedantick humours of mean and emulous souls ; when once a few more clouds of prejudices are scattered , will be willing to give up to god the glory of his soveraignty over the consciences of men ; and despise the thoughts of giving them disquietments for such things , as they can no way remedy ; and which hinder them not from being servants of god , good subjects to the king , and usefull in their respective lots and conditions . and now instead of those words of pilate , what i have written , i have written , which though uttered by him maliciously and despightfully , as was also the prophecy of caiaphas , were by the holy wise providence of god , turned into a testimony to the truth ; i shall shut up this discourse , with those of our saviour , which are unspeakably more our concernment to consider , matth. 24. 45 , 46 , 47 , 48 , 49 , 50 , 51. who then is a faithfull and wise servant , whom his lord hath made ruler over his houshold , to give them meat in due season ; blessed is that servant , whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing . verily i say unto you , he shall make him ruler over all his goods . but and if that evil servant shall say in his heart , my lord deferreth his coming ; and shall begin to smite his fellow servants , and to eat and drink with the dru●ken ; the lord of that servant shall come in a day that he looketh not for him , and in an hour that he is not aware of ; and shall cu● him assunder , and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites ; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth . finis . of the power of the keyes, or, of binding and loosing hammond, henry, 1605-1660. 1651 approx. 482 kb of xml-encoded text transcribed from 84 1-bit group-iv tiff page images. text creation partnership, ann arbor, mi ; oxford (uk) : 2007-01 (eebo-tcp phase 1). a45430 wing h569 estc r14534 12279466 ocm 12279466 58619 this keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the early english books online text creation partnership. this phase i text is available for reuse, according to the terms of creative commons 0 1.0 universal . the text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. early english books online. (eebo-tcp ; phase 1, no. a45430) transcribed from: (early english books online ; image set 58619) images scanned from microfilm: (early english books, 1641-1700 ; 630:11) of the power of the keyes, or, of binding and loosing hammond, henry, 1605-1660. [11], 157 p. printed for richard royston ..., london : 1651. includes bibliographical references. reproduction of original in the university of illinois (urbana-champaign campus). library. created by converting tcp files to tei p5 using tcp2tei.xsl, tei @ oxford. re-processed by university of nebraska-lincoln and northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. eebo-tcp is a partnership between the universities of michigan and oxford and the publisher proquest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by proquest via their early english books online (eebo) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). the general aim of eebo-tcp is to encode one copy (usually the first edition) of every monographic english-language title published between 1473 and 1700 available in eebo. eebo-tcp aimed to produce large quantities of textual data within the usual project restraints of time and funding, and therefore chose to create diplomatic transcriptions (as opposed to critical editions) with light-touch, mainly structural encoding based on the text encoding initiative (http://www.tei-c.org). the eebo-tcp project was divided into two phases. the 25,363 texts created during phase 1 of the project have been released into the public domain as of 1 january 2015. anyone can now take and use these texts for their own purposes, but we respectfully request that due credit and attribution is given to their original source. users should be aware of the process of creating the tcp texts, and therefore of any assumptions that can be made about the data. text selection was based on the new cambridge bibliography of english literature (ncbel). if an author (or for an anonymous work, the title) appears in ncbel, then their works are eligible for inclusion. selection was intended to range over a wide variety of subject areas, to reflect the true nature of the print record of the period. in general, first editions of a works in english were prioritized, although there are a number of works in other languages, notably latin and welsh, included and sometimes a second or later edition of a work was chosen if there was a compelling reason to do so. image sets were sent to external keying companies for transcription and basic encoding. quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in oxford and michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet qa standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. after proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of tcp data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a tcp editor. the texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the tei in libraries guidelines. copies of the texts have been issued variously as sgml (tcp schema; ascii text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable xml (tcp schema; characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless xml (tei p5, characters represented either as utf-8 unicode or tei g elements). keying and markup guidelines are available at the text creation partnership web site . eng church polity. 2005-12 tcp assigned for keying and markup 2006-05 spi global keyed and coded from proquest page images 2006-06 emma (leeson) huber sampled and proofread 2006-06 emma (leeson) huber text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-09 pfs batch review (qc) and xml conversion of the povver of the keyes : or , of binding and loosing . 1 cor. 11.31 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . london , printed for richard royston , at the angel in ivie-lane , 1651. the preface . that the prime act of power enstated by christ on his apostles , as for the governing of the church , ( and exorcising or banishing all devils out of it ) so for the effectual performing that great act of charity to mens souls , reducing pertinacious sinners to repentance , should be so either wholly dilapidated , or piteously deformed , as to continue in the church only under one of these two notions , either of an empty piece of formality , or of an engine of state , and secular contrivance , ( the true christian use of shaming sinners into reformation , being well-nigh vanished out of christendome ) might by an alien , or an heathens , much more by the pondering christian , be conceived very strange and unreasonable , were it not a title clear , that we are faln into those times of which it was foretold by two apostles , that in these last dayes , there should come scoffers , walking after their own lusts : the pride and contumacy ( which have almost become the genius ) of this prophane polluted age , heightning men to an atheistical fearlesse scoffing and scorning of all that pretends to work any cures , to lay any restraint on them , to rob them of any degree of that licentiousnesse , which is become the very religion , and doctrine of some ( under the disguise of christian liberty ) and ( the lord be merciful unto us ) the practise of most rankes of christian professors . this is the more sad & wounding a consideration , because it was antiently resolved , that christianity where-ever it entered in its purity , did plant all manner of exact and strict conscientious walking , all humility , meeknes , purity , peaceablenesse , justice , charity , sobriety , imaginable ; that wickednes and dissolution of manners was to be lookt on as the only heresie , ( and therefore simon magus , the nicolaitans , and gnosticks , with other their neerest followers , that led the van of hereticks in epiphanius , are notoriously known to have been persons of the most vitious , debauched , libidinous lives ) and good life revered as the only orthodox professor ▪ from whence ( as nothing can be more consequent , so ) i shall designe to inferre no farther conclusion , then onely this , that they which live ill in the profession of a most holy faith , ( or farther then so , embrace and disseminate doctrines which tend to the dissolution of mens lives , making the good spirit of god the author or cherisher of any of their unchristian enterprizes ) but especially they that discharge and banish out of the church those means which might help to make the generality of christians better , have the spirit of antichrist working in them , even when they think themselves most zealously busied in the beating down his kingdom . what those means are which might most effectually tend to the amending the lives of christians , i shal need no farther to interpose my judgement , then 1. by submitting it to christs , who put the keyes into the apostles hands , on purpose as a means to exemplifie the end of his coming , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , mat. 18.11 . to save that which was lost , not to usurpe authority over the temporal power or sword , and like an apoplectick palsie-●it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to invade , or smite , or dissolve the sinews of civil government or peace , ( t is a most sacred truth , that the spiritual hand hath no manner of jurisdiction , nor was ever believed to have for the first 1100 years , over princes in their temporals ; and the composition of the anglican church most perfectly , i had almost said , peculiarly acknowledges it ) nor again to give an office of splendor or grandeur to the clergie , an authority valuable onely from the ability of hurting others , or magnifying our selves over them , ( which where it is pretended to , is indeed somewhat of the making of the heathen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that lorded it over gods heritage , served themselves , either their purses , or their ambitions , or their passions out of the subjects under them ) but as christ saith , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to administer charitably to them in the matters of the highest alloy , the divinest , valuablest charity of not suffering sin upon the brother , levit. 19. and 2. by minding my self and others , what the apostles say of this power , that it was given them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to build up the church of christ by it in general , and in particular 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to discipline them , whom no fairer means would work on , and teach them not to blaspheme in words or actions , to work them off from all lees of speculative , but especially of practical atheisme . that these are the [ not weak or carnal weapons of the churches warfare , but mighty to bring down every strong hold ] i. e. the most contumacious , stout , importunate sinner , that doth but acknowledge the truth of the gospel , i shall anon have leisure to shew you . in the mean , the only design of this praeloquium is , to awaken ( if it be possible ) the drousie world , and quicken them so far from the mortified , putrified state of sinne and stupidity , as to be willing but to hearken to christ himself when he comes but on a message of mercy to them , to redeem them from iniquity , and purifie to himself a possessed purchased people ( or the people which he had purchased for that one end , that they might be ) zealous of good works . if this general proposal , ( so pertinaciously decried by our actions ) might once be thought worth the hearing , then sure christs peculiar way and method of working this cure , would be thought of some use and advantage also ; not lookt on as a meer engine , or artifice of ambitious men , as they cannot be blamed to conceive it , who think it doth any way entrench on those regalities which are placed by god , i most willingly professe to believe , far above the reach of any humane authority , solo deo minores ; or else suppose it a tyrannizing , or triumphing over the most inferiour offender , ( he that can take any carnal or sensual pleasure in the exercise of those keyes , in the using that sharp engine of surgery , or ever draw it but in meer necessary charity , ( to edification , and not to destruction ) is one of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sonnes of blood , not fit to be admitted on a common iury , much lesse advanced to be a spiritual iudge ) but as a most soveraigne medicinal recipe , that which hath the inscription of christ on it ; not as of a lord , but as a iesus ; not as a law-giver , but as a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a saviour and a physitian of souls . and this peculiar way is the power of binding and loosing , ( the subject of this ensuing discourse ) which that it may be restored to its full vigor in this church again , and ( where ever sobriety shall advise ) by addition of penitential canons be reformed or regulated , and being put into the primative channel , may there be permi●ted to shew forth it self in the native purity and brightnesse , and so being ordered according to gods designation , obtain gods blessing to make it effectual to its end , ( the almost only piece of reformation which this church of england , as it hath been long , and as yet stands established by law , may justly be thought to stand in need of ) shall be the prayer of him , who professes to love and admire the beauty of this fabrick , even when it lyes polluted in its blood , and to wish no greater blessing to its dearest friends , or , for whom he daily prayes , most implacable enemies , then ( that of old ba●timaeus for himself , lord that they may receive their sight ) that the scales may fall off from all our eyes , that we may see and value what is so illustriously conspicuous , and ●stimable in it self , and not so blear our sight with the observation of the miscarriages in this kind as not to discern or value the designation ; which , if the abuses , and excesses , and mistakes ( that have crept in in that matter ) were timely discerned , and removed , and that which is christian and apostolical revived , and restored in prudence and sobriety , might yet again shew the world the use of that prelacy , which is now so zealously contemned , and recover at once the order and the estimation of it , set more saints on their knees in petitions for reducing and restoring , then ever imployed their hands toward the suppressing of it . i shall no longer need to detain the reader in his entrance , having no use of any popular topick to court , or get advantage on his affections , but desiring only to treat with his reason ( as that is elevated by christ ) his more noble masculine faculty , and 1. from the institution of christ , to shew him the benefit that will accrew to that better part of him , by continuing within subjection to this government : and 2. by the peculiarity of the fabrick of this excellent ( yet establisht ) church of england , to challenge the most sharp-sighted opposition to shew where the due execution of this power according to law can provoke him to any thing , but charity and gratitude , both to the saviour that designed , and to the prelate that is his angel in conveying this seasonable mercy to him ; and more generally , where , or in what point of conjunction , or motion , it can any way enterfere , or disturbe the civil interest . which it would be hard to affirm of any other national church in europe , which hath any power either of repressing hereticks , or of reforming , or but of shaming notorious offenders , left in it . the lord grant us unprejudicate honest hearts to judge uprightly of it , and every one of us , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , pretious ornament , 1 pet. 3.4 . ( in stead of that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that bravery of hell in macarius , that the proud is so well pleased with ) i mean that meeknesse and quietnesse of spirit , to think some others may possibly discern betwixt good and evil , as well as our selves ; and when that prayer is once heard , i shal then suppose that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that hath given themistocles the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or preheminence over his fellows in the judgement of all posterity , ( viz. that every man named him next after himself ) will certainly end the present church-controversie of these sad times . a moderate episcopacy , with a standing assistant presbytery , and * every of those assigned his ful task and province of employment also ) being the onely fourth , which as it will certainly satisfie the desires of those whose pretensions are regular and moderate , ( having by their study of learning & christianity attained to some measure of that grace which aristonymus of old recites among the benefits of philosophy , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) craving nothing more , and in many things lesse then the standing laws of the land allow them , so will it appear to be that which all other parties can best tolerate , and which next himself , both presbyterian , and independent , and erastian will make no question to chuse and prefer before any of the other pretenders . this , i conceive , is not by me magisterially dictated , but already demonstrated à posteriori , by the experience which the few last moneths have yeelded us , since the pretensions of the prelacy grew weaker , and of the other three more flattering and hopeful one against the other . where in every turn of the trembling motion , that which hath feared most to be supplanted by either of the other pretenders , hath been content to acknowledge , that their cost and industry in the eradication of prelacy , is not likely to be rewarded in this life , but with sorer pressures , or more dangerous loosnesse , then that which formerly they had mourned under . and for a demonstration à priori . i suppose it sufficient , if it be but calmely considered , that the several excellencies of the other three , by which they set themselves out amiable and desirable to admirer● or followers , ( the presbyterians sharpnesse and severity against all ignorance and sin , the independent zeale against mixt congregations , and the erastians care that the civil power may not be entrencht on , and that they that might receive benefit by the word and sacrament , should by no means be interdicted the use of them ) may all and each of them be found ( at least , as in mixture , refracted & ) compounded in this fourth : which to shew particularly , would require a length beyond the bounds of this preface , and on that civility to the reader , it is now omitted , as also that i may not seem to have mistaken the point of the present controversie ; which certainly among the quickest sharpest designers or managers of it , is not , what are the uses and excellencies of this power , but what the properest seat , who the fittest to be intrusted with it . one thing yet more there is , which in this matter will deserve to be considered , viz. the conscience of our sovereigne , in order both to our common duty to him , and to an honourable and durable peace , toward which how neer soever we conceive our selves advanced by providence , we cannot reasonably expect the sure blessing of god , to consummate and crown our hopes , if we doe not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the apostles phrase , i. e. use all the expedients , that any ambitious man would employ to the attaining his worldly designe , i mean , all that prudence will suggest , and sober christian conscience not reject , to the making up a happy compliance with him ; in a word , if we do not by all moderate lawfull means love and follow peace , and consider them who have the legal power over us . o that wee would know , at least in this our day , the things belonging to our peace , before that fatal voice go out , but now are they hid from your eyes . of the power of the keyes : or , of binding and loosing . for the clear stating of this point , there is but one method seasonable , ( because but one asterisme that hath any powerful influence upon it ) the conjunction of the severall passages in the new testament about the donation and exercise of this power . for in matters of christs institution , which have no foundation in the law of nature , it must needs be improper for reason to interpose and assert , or define what that accounts most agreeable , ( for that is to subject to our tribunal , not the acts of his justice , which god hath been willing to yeild us , isa . 5.3 . and ezek. 18.25 . and in them to appeal to our own reason , but the acts of his wisdome , ( for such are all his institutions ) which god will not allow us to judge , or dispute , rom. 9.20 . ) any farther then by discourse to conclude from the context , and words of that institution , what is most agreeable to the importance of those words , and by way of advice to direct us to compare our conceipts with the doctrines of those , who were nearest to the times of that institution , and might probably know more of it ( and be more instrumental to us for the deciding any difficulty ) then those that being farther removed , look on at that greater distance . and therefore , as in the businesse of the sacrament of the lords supper , the surest course to compose the controversies , and satisfie the scruples of men in that point , were to reduce it to its principles , and to resolve by consent to assert no more in that point ( as matter of faith at least ) then might be naturally and infallibly concluded from the places of scripture concerning the institution , use , and nature of that sacrament , or the antient primitive understanding of those places , and naturall deductions from them ( for the reducing of which operation to practice , an attempt hath been made in another place ) so will it be the most probable towardly course , i conceive , least subject to any dangerous mistake , to resolve and observe in this businesse . cap. i. sect. 1 and then the first thing observeable will be , that the three onely places to be met with in the gospel concerning this institution ( matth. 16.19 . matth. 18.18 . joh. 20.23 . ) are no two of them fully parallel to one another , or coincident ; i meane , no two of them narrations of the same one speech of christ , but ( as by the occasion and circumstances of time and place it will appear ) each delivered by christ at a severall time ; the first matth. 16.19 . was ( upon occasion of peters confession ) a promise of what should be conferred afterwards upon him by way of reward and encouragement [ i will ( not yet de presenti , i do ; but de futuro , i will ) give thee the keyes , &c. and then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , whatsoever thou shalt &c. ] the second matth. 18.18 . was an exemplifying of that glorious truth ver . 11. that christ came 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to save that that was lost : upon the heeles of which bare assertion , followes first a parable , ver . 12.13.14 . ( a speciall piece of christs logick and rhetorick to prove popularly , and so to perswade ) and then v. 15. the institution of a piece of discipline perpetually to continue in the church of his plantation , as most eminently instrumentall to that designe , the reducing obstinate sinners to repentance . the consideration of which one thing , that these keyes , when christ was gone , were to continue imployed on that same great work , or designe , which brought christ into the world , the saving of such as were lost , will be able to set a competent value on this institution , and rescue it from the contempts and scornes , which the impious world is pleased to make its portion ; very agreeable to that greater stratagem of satan , who by complying with our wishes and our interests , easily prevailes with vitious men , to believe neither resurrection , nor judgement to come ; and this , as it is noted by the fathers , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the only beloved doctrine of the effeminate and voluptuous . the third place joh. 20.23 . is apparently part of christs speech to all his disciples ( after his resurrection , and his having confirm'd them all but thomas , in the truth of it , v. 20. ) and was a kind of farewell to his church , and an actuall inauguration , or consecration of them from disciples into apostles , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 disciples , v. 20. and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sent , v. 21. put together do import , ( and the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they that were with them , luke 24.33 . doth not contradict , for there is no mention of these words , of binding and loosing in that gospel , and if there were , it would not follow that the power of binding was delivered to that mixt company , any more then the power from on high was promised to them v. 49. which surely belonged onely to the apostles , as will appear by the words immediately precedent , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , being rightly interpreted , [ and be ye witnesses of these things ] i. e. of his death and resurrection , which we know was peculiarly the office of the apostles ; ) which being a solemne donation was set out by a speciall ceremony , viz. that of christs breathing upon them , a significant one to expresse the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the eternall breath or spirit of god , which he would suddenly poure on them , and for it * prepares them by this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , receive the holy ghost ( which were the words annext to that ceremony , the words of consecration , the same that we now retain in the ordination of a priest ) whose sins you do remit , ( or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , if you doe remit any mens sins ) they are remitted to them , and if you do retain any , they are retained . from all which three places thus compared , the first generall sect. 2 result is this , that the power of binding and loosing is a solemn priviledge or a prerogative of the church of christ , thrice insisted on by our saviour . 1. by way of prediction , that he would conferre it , matth. 16. then secondly , by way of a more particular description of the manner , and direction for the end and use of it , matth. 18. and thirdly , by a preparatory ●ind of instating them in this power , an initial investing them with this sacred ghostly authority , joh. 20. ( immediately before his final departure from the world ) which seemeth to have been b throughly perfected and compleated , when after his ascension the holy ghost did visibly descend upon those to whom these words were by christ then delivered , [ receive the holy ghost , &c. ] this formal compleat instating of this power ( of binding and loosing ) upon them , and not only the giving of those gifts of tongues , &c. being a main branch and effect of this descending , and their receiving of the holy ghost , according to that of isa . 32. if you compare ver . 1. of the [ king and princes ruling in judgment , prophetically intimating christ and his apostles ] with ver . 15. & 16. where the descent of the spirit is mentioned as a preparative to the exercise of that judicative power . and so ephes . 4. he gave gifts unto men , v. 8. and gave some apostles , &c. v. 11. and this i conceive will direct us to the importance of those words , luke 24.49 . [ i send the promise of my father upon you ] so as they may be parallel with this place , joh. 20.23 . receive the holy ghost . no doubt that promise of the father was the holy ghost , joh. 15.26 . and the [ i send upon you ] ( both as a verbum ●olenne , i send , i. e. i instate on you ; and that in the present , i send , not in the future , i will send ) all one with the [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , receive him ] and so the power from on high , in the end of the verse , clearly signifies that visible mission of the holy ghost , which they were to expect , as the means of compleating this donation : and so 't is clear by comparing it with act. 1.4 . & 8. where the same phrase are used . and therefore joh. 20.21 . immediately before the [ receive the holy ghost ] he saith , as my father sent me , so send i you ; intimating that as at his mission to his office he was anointed with the holy ghost , act. 10.38 . viz. upon his baptisme , luk. 3.23 . ( whereupon 't is said , that he by the spirit cast out devils , mat. 12.18 . which is clearly symbolical , and parallel to his loosing , or remission of sinnes ) so the apostles at their mission , or entrance on their power , should be anointed also . cap. ii. having proceeded thus far by way of generall precognition , sect. 1 that which is behind , will , i conceive , be most intelligible , if it be reduced to these few heads . 1. on whom this power was bestowed . 2. in what it consists . 3. to what use 't is designed , and to what sort of men it belongs objectivè , or who are to be bound and loosed . 4. what is the reall effect of it , or what conjunction it hath with binding and loosing in heaven . for the first , though to him that considereth the place of sect. 2 matth. 18. alone by it selfe ( which is an obscure place ) the matter be not so cleare to whom this power was given by christ , and though thereupon some mistakes have arisen , and occasion of conceiting this power of binding , &c. to be instated by christ on the whole aggregate of any particular church , yet surely the matter will be sufficiently clear , if ( as it is most reasonable ) we first allow that obscure place leave to borrow light from the two other most evident ones ( and not obscure the more evident by that : ) and secondly ( after we have brought that light to it ) observe , what glimmerings of light we shall be able to discern ( by that help ) even in that obscure place it selfe , which will ( as the weak light of the moon , with that treasure of light , borrowed from the sun , added to it ) become by this meanes exceeding lightsome . for although these three places are not parallel one to the other , in respect of the times and occasions of delivering them , and other circumstances , yet there is no doubt , but they belong all to the same generall matter , the power of binding , &c. and that being ( as it is apparent even by that of matth. 18.18 . ) instated not on the whole world , or community of men , but determinated to some peculiar subject , there is all reason to resolve that that subject , though diversly exprest , is yet the same in all those places , unlesse some evidence of scripture or authentick testimony of antient church , or practise shall demonstrate the contrary ; which that it doth not , will ( as far as concerns the scripture , which deserves our first search ) be thus cleared by considering the severall places . and first matth. 16.19 . which was occasioned thus ; christ sect. 3 examining his disciples what opinion they had of him , is answered by simon , that he was the christ , the messias , the sonne of the living god , vers . 16. upon which christ pronounceth him a blessed person , as having received the supernatural gift of faith from god himselfe , which no humane means could have helpt him to , and upon this , changes his name from simon bar-jona ( the only name he had , vers . 17. ) to cephas in syriack , that is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in greek , or as homer and other good authors , and ( which beares most affinitie with the dialect of this book ) the author of the second book of mac. cap. 4.31 . used it in the masculine 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , signifying a rock or stone , to intimate that he should be ( as a foundation or strong rocky stone in a building is a principall ingredient in the building , and a meanes of the future stability of it , matth. 7.25 . the storme and flouds and winds came upon it , and it fell not , because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , it was founded on such a firme rocky stone ) a principal part , call it foundation , or rocke , or pillar of that church of christians , which partly by this confession of his , here recorded to all posterity , and partly by his future teaching , he should be a meanes to erect for christs service : and then being so glorious an instument of converting so many , christ is pleased to give him the keyes of this kingdome ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . theophyl . in mat. 16. authoritatively he gave him the keyes , as his father had done the revelation , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. as he goes on , a power of binding and loosing , &c. so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the pardoning and punishing of sinnes , in a word , is spirituall grace or power , or jurisdiction over these future converts of his ( as generally in the apostles times , and after , he that converted any country or chiefe city in his apostleship , was setled as their bishop or governour in spirituall matters , and so continued all his life , unlesse having setled them , he thought good to commit that office , and power to some body else , that so he might be the more free to go and preach and convert more ) though not as yet , because they were not by him as yet converted , yet by way of promise in diem to be performed , when time should serve ; i will give thee the keyes , and whatsoever thou shalt bind , &c. the summe is , peter was to be an apostle , and to do wonders in converting whole nations to christ , and among those whom he thus converted , christ promises that he should have a jurisdiction , a power to govern , and discipline , and censure , as there should be occasion in those churches . this being thus promised to peter , as a chiefe apostle , and sect. 4 confessour of christs , not exclusivè by way of exclusion , that none should have this power but he , but honorificè by way of honour mentioned first to him by the priviledge of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , of being ( as i conceive he was ) the first that was call'd , but more peculiarly as a reward of his notable confession , v. 16. is by christ a little before his parting from the world , after his resurrection joh. 20.23 . actually instated both on him , and c the rest of the apostles , who were to ioyne in the same office with him of begetting unto christ , and educating those which were so begotten , of converting and preserving , or governing , and in order to that end were to have their severall provinces assigned them ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , saith chrys . every of them his distinct part ) for preaching first , as afterward for jurisdiction , which i shall adventure to affirme not improbable to be the meaning of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to go to his own place act. 1.25 . applying it not to judas , but to matthias , or the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , him that should be chosen , and so againe most probably of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the part , or lot , or portion of ministery and apostleship , in the beginning of the verse , ( the former of them belonging to the office of preaching peculiarly , the latter to that of governing also ) distributed to each , either by lot , or by joynt consent , and designement of that great 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the colledge of the apostles ; it being most proper and according to analogy , that the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 those which had laboured and toyl'd in the word and doctrine , for the converting and begetting men to christ , should be also thought worthy of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the elder brothers priviledge and prerogative , to be rulers or masters of the family after the fathers departure , and so be endued with a paternal power of chastisements ( i. e. discipline ) and government for the keeping of them in some compasse , within the terms of a peaceable , holy , d truly-christian congregation ; and therefore after the ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 joh. 20.21 . i send you ) ( the forme of words that made th●m apostles answerable to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nuntio's , messengers among the jewes , and not farre unlike to the proconsuls sent out , though on a quite distant arrant of secular power , among the romans ) immediately follows the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , he breathed on them ( proportionable to god's course of making a living soul , gen. 2. v. 2. by breathing on him the breath of life ) and said , receive the holy ghost , if you remit any mens sinnes , they are remitted ; if you retain , they are retained ; which words were apparently delivered , ( and in them this power ) to as many as were breathed on , i. e. to as many as were e sent by christ , and indeed to no more , unlesse either first by way of communication from them to their successours , or secondly by speciall immediate vocation from heaven , by the bath col , as the hebrewes phrase is , the daughter of thunder , i. e. voice from heaven sent to consecrate them . thus st paul who was none of the twelve , yet speaking of the power of excommunicating , saith , it was given to him ( to him not as a successour of the apostles , but to him as one called immediately from heaven ) by the lord , or by christ , 2 cor. 13.10 . in a word , it was by christ immediately then given to the apostles all and each of them , and to none else , till matthias was received into the place of judas , and st paul was afterward extraordinarily designed , and called unto the same office , together with barnabas , act. 13.12 . proportionably it may seem to what befell the twelve patriarchs , ephraim and manasses being taken in● , in josephs stead that died , as these two in the place of james the brother of john , who was cut off , before he came to do that work to which he was sent , the preaching to all nations . sect. 5 those two places thus agreeing on the subjects of this power , or objects of this donation , 't is already more then probable , that the third witnesse producible will agree with those two , or if it seem otherwise , sure 't will not be thought reasonable , that these two shall be forced and violenced to consent to that , which is but an alien sense , by some interpreters imposed upon that third . sect. 6 this third place i shall set down at large , because i acknowledge there is some difficulty in it , matt. 18.15 . if thy brother shall offend against thee , it seems the place belongs not ( primarily , but onely paritate rationis , by analogie of reason ) ●o all sins in the latitude , but peculiarly , to trespasses or personal injuries done by one brother , one christian to another ; as besides the expresse words v. 15. ( if thy brother trespasse against thee ) is more clear by s. peters question to the same purpose , v. 21. ( how oft shall my brother trespasse against me , and i forgive him ? ) go and reprove him , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i. e. either reprehend him for it , ( as the word is used sometimes when 't is joyned with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , chasten or discipline , heb. 12.5 . apoc. 3.19 . or again , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , f make him sensible of the wrong he hath done thee , or as it may be rendred , g make him ashamed of his fact ) betwixt thee and him alone , ( i. e. do thy best by private admonitions to bring him to a sense ) if he heare thee ( be thus wrought on ) thou hast gain'd thy brother , gain'd him , first to thy self ( gotten a friend in stead of an enemy : ) and secondly to christ , gained a convert , a proselyte to him , and this also a great acquisition to thee , to have had the honour of doing that glorious thing , and of being capable of the reward of them , that convert any to righteousnesse . but if he heare thee not , if this first method of thy charity , and sect. 7 discipline of this calmer making succeed not , another assay must be made , another artifice used , take with thee ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 farther , or over and above ) one , or two , that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established , i. e. that the thing which thou lai●st to his charge , be so confirmed ; according to that , joh. 8.17 . the testimony of two men is true , i. e. of sufficient authority in law ( according to an hebraisme , whereby 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 true , among the greek translators signifieth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fit to be credited ) that so either by the testimony of these as witnesses , he may no longer be able to deny the fact ( as heb. 6.16 . an oath is said to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ for establishing , or confirmation , in that it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 an end of affirming & denying . the thing so establisht ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) by oath , cannot be denyed , or the parties denial will longer stand him in stead ) or by authority of these he may be induced ( as the judge is on the accused , deut. 10.19 . heb. 10.28 . ) to give sentence on , to condemne himself ; which if it may be obtained , is the prime end of all these charitable artifices , to bring the injurious to a sight and shame , the best preparatives to reformation ; to which purpose is that of tertullian , apol. c. 39. disciplinam praeceptorum inculcationibus densamus , we thicken the doctrine of precepts with waies of inculcating , i. e. presse them to reformation , whom our doctrine will not prevail on ; where he mentions these three degrees , exhortationes , castigationes , censura ; exhortations , and chastisements , and then censure . sect. 8 by what hath been said of this place , and in it by observing the method of the first and second admonition , you will by the way understand the meaning of that obscure verse in st paul , 2 cor. 13.1 . this third time i come unto you , in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established , &c. it refers clearly to this usage of the second admonition . st paul had written before , which was as it were the first single admonition , which v. 2. he cals ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i told you formerly ; ) but that prevailing not , at his third coming ( which it seems was his second medling with this matter , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i foretell you the second time , ver . 2. he doth that which is answerable to the taking with him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , one or two more , as appears by the addition of these very words which are in matth. [ in the mouth of two or three witnesses , &c. ] which is , you see , the stile and character of the second admonition . this by the way . sect. 9 but if he hear not them ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , if he be still refractary , either through non-conviction of the fact , or non-contrition for it ) if this second admonition be not in event 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 2 cor. 13.10 to edification , or instruction , if it work not on him , then tell it to the church , ( i shall tell you what that is presently ) and if he hear not the church ( continue his refractarinesse still ) let him be unto thee as a heathen or a publican ] which may possibly signifie , that in that case thou hast liberty to implead him , as thou wouldst do any heathen , in any foreign heathen court , for that injury , that trespasse done to thee , which was at the first mentioned . for certainly though it were unlawful for a christian , both here , and 1 cor. 6.1 . to implead a christian for a personall trespasse before a heathen tribunal , yet to deal thus with a heathen ( or publican which was in account the same ) was not either by christ , or the apostle counted unlawful ( but only the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i. e. christian with christian , v. 6. ) and consequently with a perverse refractary brother , whom you see christ gives leave to account and deal with , as with a heathen or publican , it would not be unlawful also . but another interpretation i shall not doubt to propose to you , that by heathen and publican may be meant a desperate deplored sinner , such as the rabbins call 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i. e. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a sinner , as in the gospel 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a deplored sinner ; thus in musar , if he will not then , ( i. e. when two or three friends have been taken to be present at his admonition ) be reconciled , go and leave him to himself ; for such an one is implacable , and is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , of whom again 't is there said , si nec hoc modo quicquam profecerit , i. e. adhibitis amicis , if this second admonition doe no good , debet eum pudefacere coram multis , he must be ashamed before many , ( which may be the meaning of dic ecclesiae , tell it to the church , as will anon appear by 1 tim. 5.10 . ) and this interpretation of that phrase will seem most probable , if you mark 1. that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 publicans and sinners are frequently joyned together in the gospel , as once publicans and harlots , those 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sinner-women . 2. that the heathen are call'd 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sinners , as when 't is said that christ was by the jews delivered into the hands of sinners , i. e. romans heathen , and in st paul [ not sinners of the gentiles : ] and then those words , [ let him be to thee a heathen and a publican ] will sound no more , but [ give him over as a desperate deplored sinner , ] to whom those priviledges of a christian ( viz. of not being impleaded before an heathen tribunal ) &c. do not belong , i. e. leave him to himself . this sure is the simplest rendring of the place ; and then he that is such , that is capable of that denomination , is certainly fit , and ripe for the censures of the church , which follow in the next verse , ●nd are appointed to go out against this refractory incorrigible . for so immediately it follows , verily i say unto you : who are sect. 10 those you ? why 1. in the plurall number [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ] secondly ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to you disciples ( for so in the first verse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the disciples came to him with a question , and v. 3. he said , verily i say to you , i. e. to you disciples , and v. 12. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , what do you think ? asking the disciples , or appealing to their own judgement , and so still the same auditors continued , and his speech addrest to them , i say unto you disciples ) whatsoever you shall bind on earth , &c. sect. 11 after this , it follows v. 19. again i say unto you , that if two of you shall agree upon earth , &c. ] many false illations are by men of different perswasions made from these words , which will all vanish , i conceive , and the truth be dis-involved , if the reader will not despise this one observation which i shall offer to him ; and it is this , that the method oft-times used in scripture is , ( when it hath proposed one or two severals to speak of ) to resume the last first , and so orderly to go back , till it come to the first , to which you may accommodate that expression , and description of gods method in other things . many that are last , are first ( the last in proposing , first in handling or resuming , ) and the first last . if there be two things mentioned one after another , and any occasion to adde any thing on each of them , then i say the observation is , that the scripture sometimes uses to resume the second first , and the first after that . and so if there be more then two . i said this was oft-times the manner and stile of scripture , and to make good my observation , i am a little obliged to go out of my way , and present you with some examples . three visible ones i shall offer you out of one book , the epistle to the hebrews . first , chap. 5. where in the foure first verses there are three things propounded of an high priest , 1. that he offer for sinne , and negotiate the cause of men with god. 2. that he be compassionate toward sinners , and to that end he himself infirme , and offer for himselfe as well as the people . 3. that he be called to this office by god himself . to these three the author speaks particularly ( and applies them to christ ) in the remainder of the chapter , by way of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to the last , first , v. 5 , 6. so likewise christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest , &c. to the second next , v. 7. & 8. who in the dayes of his flesh offered up prayers , and supplications , prayers , and the ceremonies of petitioners ( for so h 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 properly signifies , olive branches , the embleme that petitioners used to have in their hands ) with strong crying and teares to him that was able to deliver him out of death , ( as when he commended his spirit into gods hands , and cryed with a loud voice , matth. 27.50 . mark 15.37 . luke 23.46 . at the delivering these words ) and i was heard , for , or by his piety , through the great ardency of that his prayer ( exprest both by the loud voice in three evangelists , and by the bodily worship , bowing of his head , in the fourth , joh. 19.30 . ) or as it may possibly signifie , he was delivered from his fear , i. e. from that which he feared and prayed against . and though he were a son , yet from the things he suffered , he learnt obedience , ( whether to god thus designing him to those sufferings , and to that office of hearing prayers , or to men , by giving them audience in their prayers , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies , so to heare , as to answer a request . ) and then the author returns to the first , last , v. 9. being made perfect he became the author of eternall salvation , &c. thus secondly , heb. 9.1 . the author having named two things , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the ordinances of worship , and the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , he dilates first of the latter of them , v. 2 , 3 , 4 , 5. for there was a tabernacle made , the first , &c. and after the second vaile , the tabernacle , &c. and over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the ( not mercy-seat , but ) k covering of the arke , &c. all these belonging to the second particular , and then afterwards he comes back to the former , the ordinances of worship , v. 6. now ●hen these things were thus ordain'd , the priest went alwaies , &c. so thirdly , chap. 10.33 . the author having mentioned two acts of suffering in them , the first personall in themselves , by reproaches , and afflictions , the second by way of sympathy with their apostle , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , partakers with , or relievers of others that were so tossed ; in the next verse he resumes both again , but first the latter , for ye had compassion of me in my bands , ver . 34. and then secondly the former , took joyfully the spoyling of your goods . this is farther evidenced by an example in this gospel , matth. 5.6 . give not that which is holy unto dogs , neither cast your pearls before swine , lest they tread them under their feet , and turning again , tear and rend thee . where there is no doubt , but the former of these latter speeches belongs to the latter of the former , and the latter of the latter to the former of the former ; per modum regressus , by way of going backward thus , lest the swine tread the pearls under their feet , and lest the dogs rend and tear thee . for it is not the manner of swine to fall upon men , and tear them , but of dogs it is ; and it is not the manner of dogs to tread a thing under their feet , but of swine it is ; so the 2 cor. 2.15 . st paul having mentioned the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 first , and then the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , them that are saved , and them that perish ; he goes back , ver . 16. first to the latter of them , to those a savour of death unto death , but to these a savour of life unto life ; so in the epistle to philemon v. 5. hearing of thy love , and faith which thou hast towards the lord jesus , and towards all the saints ; 't is apparent that the lord jesus is the object of the faith , and the [ all saints ] the object of the love . so again rom. 14. having set down two heads of discourse , that the strong should not set at nought the weake ; nor secondly the weake judge or condemne the strong , v. 3. he resumes the latter first , v. 4. who art thou that judgest ? and then v , 10. returns to the former , and thou why dost thou set at nought thy brother ? so matth. 23.25 . christ having mention'd first the outside of the cup or platter , then the inside , v. 26. he returns first to the cleansing of the inside , then the outside of it . so 1 cor. 6.11 . after the generall of washing , which contains the two subsequent , sanctifying and justifying ; the mention of our lord jesus christ , which is first named , must belong to the latter of the two , that of justification ; and the spirit of our god to the former , that of sanctifying . other examples of this observation i shall leave the reader sect. 12 to observe , when he reads the scripture more ponderingly , and only proceed to help him to take notice of it in the point in hand . three cases , it is apparent , are here mention'd orderly by our saviour in the matter of trespasse , 1. telling the trespasser of his fault between him and thee alone . secondly , taking one or two with thee , to do it more convincingly , and with greater authority . thirdly , telling the church of it . having said somewhat to each of these , as he delivered them in the three first verses , 15 , 16 , 17. he resumes the matter again , and speakes first to the last of them , v. 18. telling them , what , after the not succeeding of the third admonition , the apostles and their successors are to doe , when the cognizance of this injury and contumacy comes before them ( which , that in every case of trespasse , it alwayes should , i conceive , doth not hence appear to be necessary , save only in case that the magistrate or secular tribunal be heathen , because that supposition may perhaps be the ground of the sit tibi ethnicus , on which the other is superstructed ) viz. excommunicate such a refractary till reformation , and then upon that , absolve him again , and [ verily i say unto you , whatsoever you shall bind on earth , &c. ] from this view it is not irrational to conclude , that the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the church and the disciples ( considered prophetically under the notion of apostles , i. e. founders first , then governours of churches ) may in that place signifie the same thing . so saith st chrysost . in mat. hom. 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , tell it to the church , i. e. to the presidents and rulers of it ; and theophyl . in mat. 18. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. the church for the rulers of the church ; to which purpose it is observable , what kimchi a jewish learned rabbi hath affirmed , that the governours , and rulers are oft meant by the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or congregation ; and so philo , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the congregation is the priests . agreeable to which is the inscription of the ancient apostolical epistle of clemens romanus to the corinthians , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the church of god that dwels at rome , meaning , i conceive by the title [ the church ] himself ( who wrote the epistle , and was chief there , or bishop at that time ) and the other clergy with him ; for so the other part of the inscription [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to the church of god at corinth ] is after explained by him , in the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to the bishops , and deacons ; but if this will not be acknowledged , then by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i shal give you leave to understand any meeting or congregation of pious men , either a consessus presbyterorum , a colledge of presbyters , which were ordinarily assistant to the bishop in the antient church , or possibly the whole or any part of the people convened , whose authority or consent may work somewhat upon the offender , as st paul conceives it were apt to doe , when he commands timothy , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to rebuke the offenders before all men , i. e. in the presence of the community of the people , 1 tim. 5.20 . and perhaps when he speaks of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 2 cor. 2.6 . the rebuke that was by or under the many , though it be not certain whether that signifie the chastisement , ( as our english reads ) punishment and censure inflicted by the presbyterie , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 under them , those assisting or joyning in the censure , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , acts of canonical severity , ( which in case of sorrow and relenting of the offender upon rebuke , or admonition before ejection out of the church , were wont to be thought sufficient without excommunication , and after excommunication , as in this place to the corinthians , if they were submitted to , were sufficient , though not presently to restore him to the communion , yet to make him capable of being prayed for by the church , 1 joh. 5.16 . and to be delivered from the stripes of satan , the diseases that the delivering to satan in the apostles times brought upon them ; ) or whether , as the words may be rendred , it import the rebuke , or reproof , viz. the third admonition , ( or the second given by the bishop , which was equivalent to that ) which was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 under , or in the presence of many , viz. of the people or congregation . the former of these senses seems more agreeable to the place to the cor. the latter rather to belong to that in the 1 tim. and so that which even now in musar was coram multis , before many , and in s. paul ( if not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 under many , yet ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the presence of all men , christ may here expresse by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the church . this interpretation being admitted , or not rejected , it then follows commodiously , and reasonably in the text of the evangelist , that after the matter is brought to them ( i. e. to those many ) or after this act of reproofe , or rebuke before them , & upon continued refractarinesse to these last admonitions , then the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( that sure is ) the apostles or governors of the church , the pastors , ( which cannot be in any reason excluded from under the former word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 church , whatsoever it signifies ) and those already promised this power , chap. 16. may , or shall bind , or excommunicate them . and that is the summe of the 18. v. in reference to the 17. and then v. 19. again i say unto you , ( or as a very l antient manuscript , and some printed copies read it , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , again verily i say unto you , that second verily noting the speech to be of a new matter ) that if two of you shall agree upon the earth , or here below , ( in reference to the second thing mention'd , v. 16. take with you one or two ) concerning any thing , which they shall aske , it shall be done unto them of my father , &c. for where two or three are gathered together in my name , there am i in the midst of them , which words are brought to give authority to the solemn admonitions of the second order ( addrest by the injur'd man , accompanied with one or two assistants or witnesses to inforce them ) by telling them , that as the consessus trium virorum , the assize of three men among the jewes had some power ; so shall any two or three christians be considerable in this matter , having the priviledge of gods presence , as in their prayers thus united , so also in this act of united admonition ; for , first , god is to be thought to be in the midst of them , ( as that fourth person added to the three children in the furnace , and the face of that fourth like the son of god ) to be present with them ( as it is 1 cor. 5.4 . ) in this his ordinance , in this piece of discipline apointed by him ; whereupon the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the refractarinesse of the transgressor is become so much the greater in this case ; and besides , secondly , if upon admonition , they shall be hearkned to , it will be in their power to pray for the penitent trespasser , ( as james 5.16 . ) and that prayer of theirs joyned with the injured person is likely to be more effectuall then a single prayer , and so in both these respects a greater weight is set on the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the taking of one , or two with him . thus having returned to the second of the three , in the second place , and dispatched that , the method would direct to go on to the first again in the third place ; but in stead of that , st peter it seems asks again about it , how long a man is to forgive private injuries ; and the answer in the following words supplieth the place of having proceeded to that , and serves for the conclusion of the whole matter . the result then of this whole chapter is this , that of the sect. 13 three places of the gospel , concerning the donation of the power of binding , and loosing , two of them at the first sight most clearly convince , this power to be given to the apostles , as governors of the church , ( which will not be communicable to any , but either to others that are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 also , set apart to the office , immediately by christ , or to their successours , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . theoph. in mat. 18. ) and the third upon a thorough consideration doth the same also . for this we have the plain testimony of theophylact on that place mat. 18. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. the power of binding and loosing was given to all the apostles ; when ? why , when he said , whose sins ye remit , they are remitted , &c. i. e. in this place of st john : and again , [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . [ and i will give ] it signifies the future , i. e. the time after the resurrection , which is that in s. john also ; and again on mat. 16. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , where the binding in s. mat. and the remitting in s. john are put together , as belonging to the same matter : and it is confirm'd by no mean authority , that of s. paul himself , of himself , 2 cor. 13.10 . where speaking of these censures , ( noted there by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 using excision , & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which is all one , and which , it seems , he as an apostle was to use among them , he , not the congregation ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i will not spare ) he addeth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , according to the power that christ hath given me , ( which sure was not peculiar to him , but common to the rest of the apostles , which had it before him , and in a more ordinary way ) and ver . 3. he distinctly calls it , christ speaking in him , a high expression , making every such act of judicature in him , an act of christ . cap. iii. sect. 1 the only difficulty remaining in the point , will be , who are the apostles successors in that power ; and when the question is asked of that power , i must be understood of the power of governing the church peculiarly ( of which the power of the keyes was , and is a principal branch ) for it must again be remembred , that the apostles are to be considered under a double notion : 1. as planters , then as governors of the church . the title of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in its literall notation of missus , sent , ( embassadour or messenger ) belongs peculiarly to the former of these , and so though it have some extraordinary privileges annext to it , necessary to the work of planting , ( as the gift of tongues , the power of working miracles ) which ennobles it beyond the order of governours in the churches since their plantation , yet in the persons of the apostles , it was but a precedaneous power , preparatory to that other of ruling , or governing , which no doubt is the reason that chrysost . calls ignatius the martyr , both 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , an apostle and bishop , and perhaps is the meaning of that saying of an anonymus writer , in m photius , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that the apostle timothy was by st paul ordained , and enthronized , or seated bishop of the metropolis of the ephesians , i. e. that he that had helped to plant churches , and so was an apostle sent out to that purpose , was at length ordained bishop to govern that of ephesus being planted . which distinction being premised ' , the question will now more easily be satisfied , being proposed in these terms , [ who were the apostles successors in that power , which concerned the governing these churches which they had planted ] and 1. i answer , that it being a matter of fact , or story , later then that the scripture can universally reach to it , cannot be fully satisfied , or answered from thence , any further then the persons of timothy or titus , &c. and the severall angels of the churches in the apocalypse ( who are acknowledged by all the antients to be single persons , that had power over all others in those churches , ) but will in the full latitude through the universal church in those times , be made clear from the next evidences , that we have , viz. from the consent of the greek and latine fathers , who generally resolve , that bishops are those successors . this i shall not be so unreasonable as to attempt to prove at large through the writings of those fathers , but content my self with one or two of the first of them . of this number i conceive the testimony of clemens romanus sect. 2 in his epistle to the corinth . ( which hath been so often of late produced ) might to any disinteressed person be allowed to have some force in it ; where speaking of the apostles , he saith , that they foreseeing that there would be contention and emulation , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 about the name , or ( as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may denote , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) dignity of bishops or episcopacy , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( for i doubt not but that is the reading , and the sense there ) they set down a list , or continuation of successors , ( as when hesychius , ( and out of him varinus ) renders 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , perhaps it may be a false print , as there be many in the edition of that book , for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but howsoever the analogy from thence will extend to this also , that as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , will signifie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , inheritance , or succession ) that when any dyed such a certain person should succeed him . to which affirmation of clemens , when i have added ( that which all ecclesiasticall stories have made familiar to us ) that there were preserved in several churches such n rols and catalogues of bishops beginning from the apostles in each see , i shall conceive that that of clemens was a pertinent testimony to this purpose ; especially when the voice of antiquity is so clear , that o clemens himself was one of those bishops ( an adjutor of the apostles in their life time , and after the departure of linus , and cletus , the onely one that retained the name of bishop in rome , all others being stiled presbyters only ) that p vedelius at geneva hath at large acknowledged it , exercit. in ignat. ignat. epist . ad mar. cassabol . c. 3. sect. 3 after clemens ( an assertor at once , and example of this truth ) i must next appeal to the martyr ignatius himself also bishop of antioch , that lived in the apostles age , and is by the enemies of episcopacy discerned to be so full a treasure of this truth ( and of others in this kind ) in so many notable passages , that there hath been no way ( imaginable by those who resolve to have it otherwise ) to resist the plainnesse of his authorities ; but first by q scoffes and defamations ; secondly , by r confident rejecting of our whole volume of his epistles , as spurious , and of a latter birth ; and thirdly , by some very slender shewes of proof , that they are so . one special of this sort ( which i see lately made use of by salmasius , and for which it ſ now appears he was beholding to a sight of blundels book , not then printed ) i shall mention to remove prejudices , and it is this ; that in the epistle to the magnesians , he distinctly calls episcopacy 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which , saith that learned grammarian , signifies it to be a new order , and he attempts to prove it , because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , saith he , cannot be referred to the age ; and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , agreeable whereunto he interprets 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 2 tim. 2.22 . to be novae , or novarum rerum cupiditates , new desires , or of new things . the dealing of this learned grammarian in this businesse will sect. 4 be sufficiently strange to him , that considers the whole matter . i shall only ( in passing ) give some few hints of judging it , by telling you first , that the generality of copies read not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the youth of the bishop ( and no one of the greek editions hath so much as mention'd any various lection in that place , till now the florentine or laurentian copy hath given us that variety . ) secondly , that the whole context of the epistle drives to this of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as even this author confesses , by saying , that he perswades them to receive their bishop , and give him honour , quamvis aetate juniori , though he were younger then they , and again that he goes on to tell them , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that it becomes them not to be too familiar with the age of their bishop . but then besides this , thirdly , the vulgar , and even geneva edition reading 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , back it with citation of places of scripture pertinent only to that sense , as that wisdome is not alwayes with the hoary hair , &c. fourthly , that other reading is not avowed by , or cited from any greek manuscript , but onely that in the laurentiana bibliotheca , and the old latine , made use of by the most reverend primate of armach , which is directly translated out of it , and so doth not at all adde to the authority . but then fifthly , if that reading of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 should be acknowledged , yet would it conclude nothing against the order of bishops in those first times . for 1. what if it were a new order in ignatius his time ? that were pretty antient , ignatius living with the apostles ; for that it was written by some body else above 200. years after christ , wil want some other probation . secondly , there is no necessity that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 must signifie a new order , for although , as he saith , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth not signifie age , nor 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 young , but may be interpreted 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 new , &c. yet we are not bound to accept that interpretation of it , when the context of the epistle belongs to another matter , and when another interpretation of this phrase may be given , which ( if that reading were acknowledged ) wil reconcile all difficulties ; for why may not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifie ordination ? and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that , that belongs to a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or a young man , and so it shall be the ordination of a young man , or a young mans being bishop , which might have been apt to provoke contempt in inferiors , if that good martyr had not fortified them against that temptation . and lastly for the interpretation of that place of s. paul to timothy , it is so new , and so irrationally preferred before the ordinary one , that one may justly conclude , 't was prejudice , and willingnesse to find an example for his novelty , that made him think of this ; for why should not the lusts ( there appointed to be avoided ) be youthfull lusts , or such as young men are subject to ? why new lusts ; or desires of new things ? were not the old ordinary lusts ( so frequent among young men ) fit enough to be avoided ? might any other be enjoyed , so they were not new ? i am sorry i have insisted so long on so weak an objection , and yet it is the best that that learned man ( so much looked on , and believed in this matter by those who desire change ) hath produced , on which to build a●l his confidence , that those epistles are not ignatius's : and 't is a little strange that another learned man t and. rivet should speak of episcopacy as of a novell order , and adde [ sive 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ut loquitur ignatius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] making ignatius to say this , which if he doth , then is not only his illustriss . salmatius deceived , but also episcopacy must be acknowledged in ignatius's time , in which if it were acknowledged to be novel , it will still be antient enough ; and so 't is indeed by that author confest ( perhaps by incogitancy ) in the next page , when he acknowledges , that the custome of presbyters joyning with the bishop in imposition of hands on a presbyter ( which sure is to suppose , not to deny the office of bishops ) ex veteris aevi reliquiis mansit , and specifies what age he means , by [ juxta illud apostoli per impositionem manuum presbyterii ] wherein yet it had been more ingenuous to have rendred 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 cum , and not have chang'd it into per , quite contrary to the text ; but this by the way . as for that other argument added by salmasius , that in that epistle to the magnesians there is mention of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( as when he saith that christ was not , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) by which he concludes that epistle writen after valentinus , whose idiom that was ; if the argumemt were concluding , ( as v is . vossius in his late edition hath sufficently proved it is not ) it cannot sure be in force against us , who find no such thing in our former greek copies ; or , if we did , could readily acknowledge any such passage to be supposititious , and those few words taken into the text out of the margent , without casting away the whole volume of epistles in that fit of jealousie , or rage ; if i could discerne in that writer any other sh●w of argument against that general opinion , which the christian world hath had of these epistles , i should proceed to the weighing of it . but now upon the edition of blondels book ( out of which salmasius only brought us some gleanings ) we find a great deale of paines taken to cast off those epistles ; and it is very observable first , that he that hath taken in all the antient church-writers into his catalogue ( even hermas himselfe , without any note or character of apocryphal set upon him ) and out of each of them laboured ( though very improsperously ) to gather some honey to his hive , some word or other , that might look like an accordance with that opinion which he asserts out of st hierome , and , it seemes , had skill enough to make even tertullian , irenaeus , and cyprian , ( and many others that have innumerable manifest places against the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or equality of bishops and presbyters ) instrumental to his designe , was not able to find one sentence in ignatius , which might be perswaded to be usefull to him , and therefore hath exprest that severity on him , that he hath not thought reasonable on any other , even those which all antiquity hath rejected ; so partial and unequal is the mind of man , when that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( that i say no worse ) hath the ruling of our counsels . the exceptions which this learned man hath made against ignatius being the author of those epistles , are 1. scriptionis genus affectatum , an affected kind of writing , pompous epithets ( which saith he , could not agree with an apostle , panting in the chaines of martyrs ) such as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and among them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] the very naming of which , i suppose , doth shew the frivolousnesse of the charge , and weaknesse of the inference from it ; for sure an authour may use compounded words , ( yea and words of his own making , as , i suppose , st paul's 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is acknowledged to be , and yet many of these recited from those epistles are not ) without the crime of affectation , as well as st paul might his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and the like : and though a holy martyr in his chains may not be allowed the vanity of affectation as that hunts for glory from men , yet sure he may be allowed to have elevated affections , and by the command of them , to use expressions which are not vulgar & ordinary . the second is his barbarous words , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which indeed are latine words made greek , but so there are many more in the new testament , in stead of those four charged on ignatius as barbarismes , these fifteen which are ready at hand to me , ( i will not take the pains to seek for others ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and many as latinizing ( i. e. barbarous ) phrases , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and the like . and 't is a little strange how this learned man hath minced this matter , confessing indeed that there is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the gospel ( naming only one of so great a number ) and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in hegesippus : and for the excuse of that one word in hegesippus , adding that he was at rome from the year 150 to 170. whereas this liberty might be allowed either ignatius , or hegesippus , without having been so long at rome , as wel as the writers of the new testament , which have three times more of such words then he cites out of both of them . the third is , severall passages , quae incommodè dicta videri possunt , which may seem incommodiously spoken , ( and if it be but [ seem , ] and that but [ may seem , ] and at last but [ incommodiously spoken , ] sure this charge will not wound deep ) & comparationes non exactae ad amussim , comparisons not drawn by the rule exactly , ( and truly the martyr that was not to be permitted to have the vanity to affect , might as well be thought not to have the leasure to take the line and the plummet , and delineate every expression so exactly ; but what are the miscarriages , and defects in this kinde ? why , that he calls the spirit 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a cord , and faith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the leader , whence , saith he , in ignatius's esteem , fidei potior quàm spiritus functio , faith hath a nobler office then the spirit . but why may not i more truly say , that the advantage in that comparison is given to the spirit , because that is said to draw , when faith doth lead only ? 't is certainly clear that his anger was very causlesse , who could quarrell at that doctrine , which is in effect no more then this , that the word of god apprehended by faith doth lead us our way to heaven , and the spirit of god is the cord to draw us thither . 2. that he calls his bands 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , spirituall jewels , in which he wishes he might rise , whereas , saith blondel , there is nothing properly spirituall in the bands which wicked men put on the body of a martyr , and no hope that he should rise in those bands . but sure his sufferings may be called his bands , and those be matter of joy , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to his spirit , more then all the gemmes to the most vain glorious worldling , and this be very commodiously exprest by those words , and then sure he might wish , ( though not hope ) ( and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is no more ) to have this matter of joy continued to him , and so that he might rise with them . 3. that he uses 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so oft ; what a cruelty upon a patient martyr is this , not to give him leave to use such frequent innocent words as these frequently , as well as st paul is allowed the very same , & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. these are certainly streined exceptions , the learned man was at great leasure to quarel , when this provocation was accepted . 4. that when baptisme is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 weapons , he calls faith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as an hlmet ; love , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as a spear ; patience , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as a compleat armour . for x what , saith he , doth faith and love , &c. confer to him that is already armed by baptisme ? and if patience be the christians compleat armour , what new advantage hath he by having a helmet from faith ? but why may not baptisme be called weapons in the plurall , and every of those graces profest and vowed in baptisme , have their severall uses in the after life ? and sure the armour of baptisme is not so perfectly of proof , but that there is need of the exercise of every one of those christian virtues to hold out against the impressions of satan , which are like to be so oft repeated ; and if faith do not defend the head , and charity the heart , and patience and perseverance every part of the body , i. e. every action of the future life , that subtle enemy may chance to wound us mortally . as for the new advantage of faith to him that hath the compleat armour of patience , the author of that epistle saith no such thing , but on the other side first requires the helmet of faith , and then the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of patience , that sure is the arming of all parts , which were not before armed , and that may go for an addition , as perseverance is to sanctity , and as our saviour saith of his believers , that he that endureth to the end shall be saved . 5. that 't is not likely that presently after ignatius comming into asia , bishops , presbyters , and deacons should be ordained ejus rogatu , at his intreaty , qui ad antiochinos asinorum gratulatorias epistòlas deferrent , who should carry the gratulatory epistles of the asians to the christians of antioch . i shall only say to this , 1. that they were ordained to some other end beside this , yet might perform that task also , and that very solemnly . 2. that a probable argument , or a conceived improbability against a narration of a matter of fact ( which relies not upon a confluence of all probabilities , but only on the authority of the relatour ) is of all other the most unconvincing ; there was nothing ever done 1600 years ago , but a good phansie will observe some improbability in it , and the matter of fact being still but one , when the possibilities which never did come to passe , are infinite , some one of those possibilities may perhaps become at a distance , to him that knows nothing of the fact ( but would perswade others that 't was never done ) tolerably probable also . 3. that he bids follow the bishop as christ did his father ; and the presbytery , ut apostolos , as the apostles , and saith that he that doth any thing clancularly without the bishops knowledge , is to be thought 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to serve the devil : whereupon , saith he , an episcopos ullos prerbyterorum comparatione dominos , imo deos à christi martyre habitos credere par est ? is it fit to believe that any bishops in comparison to presbyters should be counted lords , yea gods by that martyr of christ ? but sure this is to pervert and torment the sense of that martyr ; for to bid follow bishops as christ did his father , is far enough from making lords or gods of them : nay if the comparison were bound to hold that way , it were more proper to prove the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or equality of bishops and presbyters , for sure christ was equall with his father : and 't is observable that in the place of polycarp set down by this learned man , p. 15. when obedience is required to presbyters and deacons as to god and christ , he finds no fault with it , though that be the very thing actually said by polycarp of presbyters and deacons , that here he unjustly first imposes on , then accuses in ignatius's words of bishops , which yet are , onely for the manner of performing the obedience due to bishops , as christ obeyed his father , and cannot be extended to any equalizing the bishop to god , or the least appearance of doing so . 't were too long to go thorow , and render formal answers to the rest of the heap of exceptions , which are every one single so slight , and of no value ( and consequently the totall of them will not amount any higher , it being not in the power of 1000 probables to become one demonstration , or to be equipollent to one , much lesse of a few slight improbables ) that 't is clear the number of the exceptions was the thing depended on , and not the weight of them : witnesse these four more , that shut up the rear ; 1. that he saith that all pious men are changed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 into a new leaven , which he thinks inconvenient , when st paul calls the godly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 unleavened , whereas christ being by ignatius in the next words expressed to be that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 new leaven ; there is then nothing fit to be quarrel'd in it , unlesse to grow in grace , and the practise of all christian duties ( which is the meaning of that expression ) being an inconvenient advise . 2. that he bids fly to the apostles 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as to the presbytery of the church , whereon having resolved that by the apostles he must mean the apostles writings , ( because in the ninth of trajan then past all the apostles were dead ) he concludes that the author of that saying makes no more of the apostles writings , then of the congregations of men subject to error . where in all sober reason and equality , if the apostles signifie the apostles writings , then the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 need not signifie any other latter presbytery , but those apostles themselve , who when they wrote those writings , were the christian sanhed●in , or presbytery of the church , which was to decide all their controversies in religion . 3. that writing to polycarp , tanquam ad plebe●um nescio quem , as unto an ordinary person , he saith , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , observe your bishop : as if forsooth the epistle written to polycarp might not be written to the church under him also , to whom 't is clear that plural precept [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] must belong , and not to any one man , though he were never such a plebeian . 4. that he saith he will flatter , nay , if they will not , force the wild beasts to kill him , which saith he is like the desperabunda saeculi mancipia , the most desperate slaves among the heathen . as if these fervent expressions of desire to suffer for christ were thus to be deformed , and charged against a pious man. after all this unprovoked severity , one act of grace and mercy these epistles are vouchsafed from this authour , viz. that he contains himself from making use of one passage which suppositionis earum argumentum videri possit , might seem an argument of the supposititiousnesse of them ; ( and yet no greater an argument then that [ multa quae incommodè dicta vider possunt ] made up a great number of arguments even now ) the passage is , that he disputed profestly against the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 those that affirm'd christs , humanity to have been but an appearance , no reality ; for saith he , whether you make cass●an with baronius , or saturninus , basilides , and valentinus the antesignanos docetarum , the principal authors of that heresie , these being under adrian and antoninus pius , will appear to be after ignatius : having gone thus far , he comes off again , with a volens hoc argumento abstineo , he willingly abstains from using this argument ; because saith he , simon magus was before ignatius , and he , saith irenaeus , taught this doctrine of christs appearing only , not being a true man ; and that cassan , &c. were call'd the chief of them , must signifie , not that they were the first broachers , but in their times the chief maintainers and abetters of that heresie . this mercy , i confesse , was but seasonable , and had much of justice in it , and shews that that author was able to have answered his other arguments , if he had so pleased , particularly that which is made use of so confidently both by him and salmasius of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the valentian dialect , which is by isaacus vossius satisfied with this very answer which here blondel gives to the use of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , viz. that valentinus was not the first that said 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ortion , but that 't is agreed on by the antients , that he was not the founder of a new , but reviver of an old opini●n 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , saith irenaeus , and other fathers to the same purpose as isaacus vossius hath collected their affirmation sin his annot. on the place . having gone thus far in rejecting these epistles , he is at last at leasure to remember and acknowledge , plenom illis ipsis , quas confictas putamus epistolis , fidem habere patres , that the fathers ( indefinitely , if not universally , and it seems he had no one to produce to the contrary , if he had , he would certainly have produced it , and with reason have depended on it more , then all these other topicks ) afforded a full plenary belief to these very epistles , which the two champions of the age salmasius and he think to be supposititious , [ putamus ] is but a poor word , salmasius could speak bigger on weaker or fewer arguments , [ tam certò scio , quam me haec scribere . ] to this authority of the fathers against his opinion , his answer is short , but hath much weight and asperity in it ( which they that have as strong an appetite to lay the presbyterians flat , as the presbyterians have exprest to destroy the bishops , they that have the same exceptions against all distinction , or discrimination of lay and clergy , as blondel and salmasius have against the impariety and inequality of bishops and presbyters , will , when they can hope to be heard , be ready enough to make use of , and must not be denied to have urged an argument ad homines unaswerable , whensoever they shall please to make use of it ) and 't is but this , quid tum ? what then ? the authority of the fathers in a matter of fact ( as that ignatius wrote these epistles ) cast off without any ceremony , or difficulty in two syllables . and the reason for so doing , which is added will help the matter but little ; quàm multa minimè suspicaces ac imparatos & fefellerunt semper , & quotidie fallunt ? how many things have alwayes deceived , and daily do deceive men that are not suspicious , nor upon their guard ? and if all the fathers of the church , beginning from those that were nearest ignatius's time , must be involved in the number of these incautious , cheatable men , i shall be afraid to mention the consequences , that will too readily be deducible from hence . i shal only say ; may not this liberty , or licence rather , be soon extended very inordinately to the invasion of the sacred canon of scripture ? nay , when the same current , and consent of fathers , which delivers down all the books which make up our canon of scripture , for canonicall , and theopneust , shall be found at the same time to deliver down , and make use of these epistles of ignatius , onely with the distinction of apocryphal , ( and mean by that , not supposititious books , or books which are under suspition that they are not their off-spring , whom they call father , but only books of inferior authority , as apocryphal is opposed 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to the books of divine scripture , & legi domini , to the law or word of god , & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to those that are put in the canon , and in a word , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as you may see in the end of nicephorus's chronography , and in others ; inter scripta novi testamenti novi apocrypha , numbred among the apocryphal books , not of ignatius , but of the new testament , and appointed to be read by pious men , though not allowed that same authority and dignity , in which the books of sacred scripture have been justly estated ) when , i say , the same hands of the antient church shall deliver both the epistles of st peter for divine scripture , and these epistles of ignatius for the epistles of ignatius , though not for divine scripture , who can say that y salmasius when he had thus confidently thrown off these epistles from being written by ignatius , did not consequently , and agreeably to his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in throwing off one of st peters epistles also ? and who can think it reasonable that our warinesse and censoriousnes shall enable us at 1500 years distance to judge more truly of a matter of fact , ( which none but they that are near , be they never so wary , and suspicious , can discern any thing of ) then they that lived in those times which were nearest to the scene of action ? nay , how much more rational is that of the same salmasius ? who in the controversie about the parts of the crosse , i. e. when he conceiv'd antiquity to be favourable to that opinion which he defended , hath made this argumentative against his adversaries , an credibile est gregorium qui vixit tanto tempore postquam crucis supplicio nemo amplius afficebatur , certiorem esse testem de habitu crucis totius , &c. quàm eos authores qui scripsere cùm adhuc passim in usu esset communissimo nocentum crucifixio ? is it credible , that he that lived so long after the use of that kind of death was left off , should be a surer witnesse of any thing that belongs to it , then those authors that wrote when it was in use ? de cruce , p. 255. and again , if blondel may say without proof , that the fathers were incautious in general , and thence conclude , that they were actually deceived in this particular ; why may not i as reasonably affirm ( having given my reasons , when he hath not ) that blondel is too censorious , and partial , and willing to bring all to the cause he hath espoused , and thence conclude ( knowing how contrary these epistles are to his interests ) that he hath actually exprest his passion , and injustice in this causlesse censure of these epistles ? i have done with this learned mans observations in this matter , and when i shall hear of any other argument which can seem of force against these epistles , i shall be glad to consider it , professing my self to conceive , that as long as that one author stands in the church in his just value , the cause of prelacy and hierarchy cannot want supports , every page almost of those epistles being sufficient ( which the adversaries acknowledge in saying he doth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in season and out of season , at all turns assert episcopacy ) to interpret the obscurer vestigia in the new testament , and to assure us what was the practise and doctrine of the apostles and primitive churches in that point ; and that is the reason i have insisted so long on a thing which may seem so extrinsecall to my first undertaking , and shall not think my self out of my way , if i be content to return to this controversie again ( as having such an immediate influence on the cause in hand ) whensoever i shall be call'd to it ; in the mean , i shall content my self with this view of that matter ; and for the present , as i cannot but conceive it rashnesse to cast an epistle of st peter upon a bare affirmation in a parenthesis ( quae sola planè genuina est ) so will it be in a lower degree , but in like manner , to deal with a most antient apostolical-spirited volume , upon such unproved censures as these ; and it is observable , that the first writer that ever undertook to be thus severe against that whole volume of epistles , did with as much confidence , and as little pretention to argument , cast off one of the books of canonical scripture . this i thought not amisse here to insert , to vindicate the writings of that antient martyr , though it may be taken for a parergon in this place . supposing then this writer to stand in the same repute in sect. 5 the church of god , in which he did , before he was observed to be unreconcileable with the designs of the new reformers , i shall proceed to make use of his testimony . he commands obedience to be paid to bishops 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as to the apostles ; to the presbyters as to the seventy , to the deacons , as to the deacons in the acts. the passage is known , and although in another place , he makes the presbyters parallel to the apostles , and the bishops to christ , yet these places are easily reconciled , it being clear , that that latter place considers the apostles at the time , when christ was here on earth , at which time they were indeed but a second rank ( and in that respect it is that origen saith , tr. in mat. 24. propriè episcopus dominus jesus est , presbyteri apostoli , christ is properly the bishop , and the apostles presbyters ) but the former place considering that after christs departure , is that which more properly belongs to this matter ; this power ( though promised before ) being not yet instated on them , till after his resurrection , immediately before his leaving of this world ( or indeed till the coming of the holy ghost ) at which time they were left the governors of the church , as christ had been before , and the bishops , their successors ever since . to which purpose st cyprian , ep. 65. apostolos , i. e. episcopos & praepositos dominus elegit , the lord chose apostles , i. e. bishops and governors . so judas's apostolical function is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 bishoprick act. 1.29 so theodoret thinks epaphroditus was bishop of the philipians , because he is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 apostle , and on 1 tim. 3. saith thus , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , those that are now call'd bishops , they then call'd apostles , so titus , saith he , and so apollos , and so ( saith remig. on 1 cor. 4. ) sosthenes also . thus st hilary frequently calls st paul episcopum , bishop . and hilarius sardus in eph. apostoli episcopi sunt , the apostles are bishops . so the scriptor qu. in vet . & nov . test . qu. 27. nemo ignorat episcopos servatorem eccles●is instituisse , ipse enim priusquàm in coelos ascenderet , imponens manum apostolis , ordinavit eos episcopos . no man is ignorant that our saviour instituted bishops over the churches . for he himself before he ascended to heaven , laying his hand on the apostles ordained them bishops . so saith rabanus maur. in 1 tim. 4.14 . of the apostles times , episcopi provincias integras regebant , apostolorum nomine nun cupati . the bishops were call'd apostles . so doth blondel himself confesse not only out of gildas , that st matthew episcopatum sortitus est , was bishop , but acknowledges it of st james the brother of the lord , as the voice of all antiquity , that he was bishop of jerusalem . jacobum hierosol . ecclesiae episcopatum constanter asserunt veteres omnes . apol. pro sent. hieron . p. 50. and if it be said , that he meant by the word episcopus bishop , no more then a presbyter , one of many ; i shall only then put him or the reader in minde , what the same blondel in his censure of the pontif. epistles ( when they say he was not so severe against bishops ) hath put together of st james . hierosol . ecclesiam rexisse statuunt veteres , & à christo episcopale munus accepisse , ait hegesippus apud hieron . in cat. epiphan . haer . 78. hieron . in gal. c. 1. greg. turon . l. 1. c. 17. nic. methon . de pane consecr . à christo & apostolis . eus . l. f. 7. c. 19. constit . l. 8. c. 35. ab apostolis , constit . l. 7. c. 48. l. 8. c. ult . clem. alexand. apud z euseb . l. 2. c. 1. athanas . in synop. euseb . l. 2. c. 2. hieronymus de script . eccl. beda de 6. aetat . & martyrl . ad cal. maii. & chron. gr. anon . scriptor . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , acknowledging all , that as bishop he governed that church , as a single person , sa●e in the see or throne ; all the difference between the antients being , whether by christ or the apostles , or both , or by st peter only , he was ordained bishop . thus , saith s. a chrys . did christ invest the apostles with this sect. 6 power of retaining and remitting sins , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. as when a king sends governors over provinces , he gives them power of imprisoning and releasing , intimating the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or rulers of the church to be the men that are here represented by the apostles , and so in l. 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ speaking of the weighty office of bishops ( to excuse himself who had fled from it ) he principally insists on the power which is intrusted to them , and in that respect applies to them the style of the faithfull and wise servant , whom god makes ruler over his household . so theophylact on matth. 18. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , they that after the manner of st peter , are vouchsafed the honor of being bishops , have the power of binding and loosing . so again appears by the forecited testimonies of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 presidents in st chrys . and the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 praefects of the church , in theophylact. and so in the name and sense of the greek church , gabriel of philadelphia , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in his second difference betwixt the greek and the roman church ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the chief priests , i. e. bishops , are the successors of the apostles , and in plain words , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , so that 't is manifest , that the apostles were bishops , and applies to them that of the psalmist , psal . 45.16 . of gods constituting them rulers over all the earth , and names the severall churches wherein the several apostles ordain'd bishops , st john in asia , st andrew in achaia , st thomas in india , &c. thus also among the latines st jerome who was not very sect. 7 favourable to bishops , saith expresly that they were the apostles successors , episcopi omnes apostolorum successores sunt . ep. 83. ad evagrium . so st ambrose , claves illas regni coelorum in beato petro apostolo cuncti suscepimus sacerdotes . all we , that are stiled sacerdotes , in the blessed apostle st peter received the keyes of the kingdome of heaven . and what sacerdos signifies among the writers of that time , and particularly in st ambrose , the observation of any diligent reader will instruct him ; viz. that which the [ suscepimus ] applyed to st ambrose's person , will inforce , he being bishop of millain at that time , ( and this is agreeable even to the heathens acception of the phrase , who use sacerdos and pontifex promiscuously ; witnesse servius in aen. 3. ) so de dignitate sacerd. c. 2. he shews out of scripture , that the sheep are delivered sacerdotibus , i shall render it to bishops , because it follows , and so must be subject to those rulers . so in st chrys . in the fore-cited 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . l. 2. the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( which together with pastor in latine , is ordinarily the bishops title , in order to the shepherds office of ruling , and governing , as well as feeding the flock ) and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , sacerdos , are promiscuously taken , and the latter by the interpreter there rendred episcopus , bishop . and to the same purpose most clearly st cyprian , ep. 12. sect. 8 speaking of the lapsi , those who having fallen were under the censures of the church , and how the presbyters had presumed to reconcile , or absolve them , he concludes that they did not ( reservare episcopo honorem sacerdotii sui , & cathedrae ( reserve to the bishop the honour of his priesthood , and chaire , shewing the indifferent use of those words episcopus and sacerdos , at that time and that in opposition to presbytery , appropriating to the one the power of the keyes , exclusively to the other . this he had set down more plainly before epist . 10. shewing and aggravating the greatnesse of the fault of those presbyters that had taken upon them to use the keyes ▪ in that case , praepositum sibi episcopum non cogitantes , not thinking that there was a bishop set over them ; quod nunquam omnino sub antecessoribus factum est , resolving that it was a fact without any precedent in the church ; and again , l. 1. epist . 3. having proved the episcopal power to be immediately from god , he expresseth it in these words , sacerdotalis authoritas & potestas divinâ dignatione firmatur , the sacerdotall power is setled by divine dignation , and addes the occasion of all schismes in the church to be , quod sacerdoti dei non obtemperatur , that the bishop is not obeyed : nec unus in ecclesia ad tempus sacerdos , & ad tempus judex , vice christi cogitatur ; and that 't is not considered , that the one priest , i. e. bishop , and judge , is for the time in the church in christs stead ; which is yet more clear by his making sacerdotum collegium , the colledge of priests , all one with coepiscoporum consensus , the consent of fellow-bishops , and presently adding , that he that sets himselfe above this unus sacerdos , one priest , se non episcopi , sed dei judicem faceret , makes himself judge not of the bishop , but of god. and therefore 't is a strange proofe of blondels , that episcopacy and presbytery is all one , from that speech of pontius diaconus concerning this cyprian , quod ad officium sacerdotii & episcopatus gradum novellus electus est , having before said , presbyterium & sacerdotium statim accepisse . whereas the equipollence of the word sacerdos and episcopus being observed , and the difference of presbyter from them , doth clearly infer the contrary ; and that is apparent by the very place , multa sunt quae jam presbyter fecit ; ad probationem bonorum operum satis est , quod ad officium sacerdotii & episcopatus gradum adhuc novellus electus est . he was it seems a presbyter first , and did many things in that state , and a proof that he did so , was his election to the office of sacerdos or bishop , when he was a novice , then presently or soon after his conversion , where the difference of his being a presbyter and a bishop is most manifest . so when st b hilarius pictav . saith , aarone sacerdotes significari non ambiguum , in levi , ministros ostendi ; the same blondel concludes , sacerdotes sive praepositos , & seniores to be all one , not knowing or observing again that that sacerdos signifies bishop , who is there set parallel to aaron , in lege primus sacerdos , the first priest in the law . sect. 9 many other evidences might be produced out of those and after times , as in the councel of taurinum speaking of palladius ; a triferio sacerdote fuerat mulctatus , he was punished by triferius , who , that he was a bishop , ( if it were doubted ) would appear by the acts of that councel , and particularly by his excommunicating exuperantius , a presbyter , can. 4. which sure none but a summus sacerdos , a high priest , or bishop could doe . sect. 10 but there can be no need of more proofs in this matter , and if there were now any more doubt , that the bishops were the confest successors of the apostles in this priviledge or prerogative , that one canon of the apostles might satisfie it , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. let not the presbyters , or deacons do any thing without the consent of the bishop , for he hath the people of the lord intrusted to him , and shall one day be required an account of their souls : which besides that it is evidenced to belong to this power of the keyes , by the usefulnesse of that to the discharging the trust about souls , appears further by the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the prohibiting of presbyters to do any thing without him . sect. 11 a saying , which whatsoever is thought of it , is the voice of the first antiquity . ignatius must begin the number in epist . ad trall . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . it is necessary that whatever ye do , ye do nothing without the bishop . and if , because it follows immediately , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , obey the presbyters , as the apostles . it be conceived , that that precept belongs to the people onely , and not to the presbyters , it will then be easily replyed , that to the whole matter the same ignatius in epist . ad magn. hath given it in a latitude , which had prevented this scruple 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . as the lord christ doth nothing without the father , so you also without the bishop ; you , whether presbyter , or deacon , or laick . once more in epist . ad smyrn . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . let no man without the bishop do any of those things which belong unto the church . and the councel of laodicea hath ( almost in ignatius's words ) commanded the same . can. 56. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the presbyters must do nothing without the consent of the bishop ; and many more acts and canons might be produced to the same purpose . and if against all these , this exception be made , that by the sect. 12 force of such rules not only the power of the keyes , but also all other power belonging to the church is appropriated to bishops : to this the answer ( as it will be easie , so it ) will tend much to the clearing , and serve for the shutting up of this whole matter ; that indeed there is great truth in the objection , that all power in all matters ecclesiastical did primarily belong to the bishop , and no others , even presbyters themselves ; but as it was by the bishop communicated to them , not only by that first act of ordination , in giving them the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or first power , but also by a second act necessary to give them that other power to use or exercise that power , when they have it . this is the plain sense of the canon of the councel of arles , sect. 13 can. 19. nec presbyteris civitatis sine episcopi praecepto amplius aliquid imperare , vel sine authoritate literarum ejus in unaquaque parochia aliquid agere . the presbyters of any city must not command any thing without the precept of the bishop , nor do any thing in any parish , without authority of the bishops letters licensing them to do it . thus , i say , it is not only for the power of the keyes , but even for the ignatius's saying last produced in epist . ad smyrn is by him thus in larged , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . let that eucharist be reputed firm ( or rightly celebrated ) which is done by the bishop , or by him to whom he shall give leave ; and for baptisme , and that together , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , it is not lawfull without the bishop , i. e. without his leave , either to baptize , or administer the sacrament , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but when he shall think fit according to gods pleasure , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that all that you do , may be safe and firme . it seems the consent of the bishop was thought necessary to make it safe for any presbyter to doe any ecclesiastical act , or to give validity to it , when 't was done by him . so tertull. de cor . mil. non de aliorum quàm de praesidentium manu eucharistiam sumimus , we receive the eucharist from none but the presidents or governors . they are all one with the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in just . mart. apol. 2. to whom that whole businesse is there remitted . so again tertul. de bapt . dandi baptismum jus habet summus sacerdos qui est episcopus , dehinc presbyteri & diaconi , non tamen sine episcopi authoritate , propter ecclesiae honorem , quo salvo salva pax est . the chief priest who is the bishop , hath the power of giving baptisme , after him the presbyters and deacons , yet not without the authority of the bishop , for the honor of the church , which as long as it is preserved , the peace of the church will be preserved also . so when the scriptor . anon . quaest . in v. & nov. test . which is thought to be hilary , saith , in alexandriâ & per totum aegyptum , si desit episcopus , consecrat presbyter ; that in alexandria and aegypt , if there be no bishop , the presbyter consecrates , 't is clear by the mention of that liberty in the presbyter , as of a thing peculiar to aegypt , and that too , only when there is no bishop present , that regularly this power belong'd to none but the bishops , and to those presbyters to whom he gave it . where by the way will appear a great mistake of blondel and ( i suppose out of him , as his many other notes in his apparatus against bishops ) of salmasius , who in another place of hilary in eph. 4. cited by both of them , [ apud aegyptum presbyteri consignant , si praesens non sit episcopus , in aegypt the presbyters consigne , if the bishop be not present ] interpret consigning , either to be c confirmation or blessing ( i suppose absolving ) of penitents , or ordination . it being clear by the other place , just now cited , that consignatio signifies there consecrating of the sacrament , which is peculiarly call'd consecration , that of giving orders being ordination , not as he calls it ordinandorum consecratio ( which what it would grammatically signifie i know not , unlesse some benediction of them that are after to be ordain'd ) and it seems d blondel himself , p. 61. thinks it possible that consignatio may signifie the consecrating the elements , and by what follows , i conceive him to use it in that sense , saying , quod antiquis per solam episcoporum absentiam licuit , omnibus nunc absolutè licet , that which antiently was made lawful to all ( i. e. to presbyters ) onely by the bishops absence , is now absolutely lawfull to all : which i suppose he must mean of consecrating the sacrament , and i am sure could not reasonably believe of ordination . but this by the way , in passage , to confirm that assertion of ignatius sufficiently , that the church was by the apostles put into the hands of bishops , that ordinarily the consent of the bishop was required to enable a presbyter for any ecclesiastical act , the plenitude of power being by christ delivered down to the apostles , and through them to their successor-bishops , and by them dispenst out to others in that measure , and those portions , which they should think fit . and if it be demanded here , what it is which in our church sect. 14 is given to presbyters in their ordination , as the full importance of the form then used [ receive the holy ghost : ] i answer , not all that is at any time contained under that phrase , when it is used in the consecration , but only the particulars which are after mentioned ; and so distinctly not the power of ordaining , which is not mentioned , and which is a particular , that never was regular for any presbyter in the antient church to assume to himself , or to any number of that order without a bishop over them ( and it would not be hard to give an account of all that hath been produced of late by salmasius , or any other from the origines alexandrini , or any other record of antiquity to the contrary , but that it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and would be too large a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in this place : ) and if the practice of some few protestant churches in this last century be opposed against it ; then 1. i shal conceive those very unfit to be confronted against the vniversal for 1500 years ; and therefore secondly , i shall not doubt to affirm , that want is not only a defect , but a corruption among them . thirdly , it will be observable , that even those that want it among them , have formerly thought fit to excuse it by the case of necessity , and to acknowledge it their infelicity , but not their fault , ( their superiors in the state not permitting them to have bishops to ordain them ; ) and to give their judgements freely , that where episcopacy is , it is to be preserv'd ; and where it is not , it is to be wisht for ; which is a sufficient expression of their sense of it . and if the improsperousnesse of the cause of late in this kingdome hath moved some of them to change their style , i suppose there is no greater reason to depend on their judgements who are mov'd or wrought on by such extrinsecal arguments , then on his , who lately made no scruple to confesse , in giving his opinion of h. grotius , ego non probo prudentiam minùs felicem . he lik'd not the choice of that side which was not prosperous . and then fourthly , that this cannot be applicable by way of excuse to those who desire to cast out bishops where they are , on purpose that presbyters may usurp the power which belongs to them . secondly , not al power of binding and loosing , retaining or remitting , though those words are there added ( whose sins you do remit , &c. ) but so much as the bishops or governours are presumed to have thought fit to impart to them , and what that is , will appear by other acts of our church , especially by the liturgy : as 1. the declaring of absolution in the church after the confession of sins ; 2. the absolving them by way of prayer before the sacrament ( in case the bishop be not present ) and 3. in baptismal washing , and 4. upon speciall confession on the sick-bed ; or any time else which may by analogy or reduction come under these same heads , as in the case of private conference , and confession at other times : in all these the remitting of sins is allowed among us to a bare presbyter , not only by way of pronouncing , or declaring of absolution , but ( as a ministerial act ) actually absolving him , ( by christs authority committed to the presbyters ) from all his sins . sect. 15 all which yet will not extend to the absolving from the band of excommunication , or proportionably to such power of binding , any further ( at most ) then to confer the first power of it , which if it be then given , doth yet remain ( as the other power of preaching , and administring the sacraments ) bound and restrained from being exercised , till they be further loosed by the donation of a second power , as luke 24.49 . when christ sent them the promise of his father , which was at the time of his breathing on them , joh. 20.22 . and gave them a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a grace , or first power of it , he yet restrains the exercise of it , till the actuall descent of the holy ghost , ( but tarry you in jerusalem till you be indued with power from above ) and that is not done in this church as it stands established by law , ( in this particular of the keys ) till he become a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a ruling elder , whether by being made bishop , or otherwise by having jurisdiction vested on him : and thus much will serve turn for the first enquiry , on whom the power of the keyes was bestowed . cap. iv. i come now to the second general enquiry , in what this power sect. 1 consists , and shews it self : which i shall make no stay , or scruple to define in this proposition , that the power of binding and loosing in these places of the gospels , is e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a spiritual gift , or grace , and belongs to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in theoph. in mat. 16. the pardoning or punishing of faults , the former to the censures of the church , the ecclesiastical punishments of excommunication , and the later , the power of loosing , to that of absolving from them . this position i must vindicate from the contrary interpretations , or objections which are thought to keep these texts from concluding or countenaning any such censures . and of these , though they are not all to one sense , yet one interpretation i have chosen rather to insist on , because it hath not yet been considered by others , and because it seems to pretend to more antient grounds , then the rest formerly have done , i mean that , which proceeds by interpreting the phrases out of the writings of the talmudists , and from them concludes ( i shall sect. 2 give it you in the learned writers own words ) that the power of binding and loosing is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 facultas decernendi , explicandi , interpretandi , declarandi de ligato & soluto , quod planè millies in talmudicis ex vetustissimae ecclesiae illius usu denotat , quid vetitum ex lege sacrâ , quid permissum ( quemadmodum & graecis * scimus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , quod ligare est , etiam interdicere sonare , & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , quod est solvere , etiam permittere , seu obligationem sive auferre , sive nondum inductam monstrare , aut asserere ) adeóque ad docendi , seu interpretandi , seu theologiae praeceptivae munus solum ibi attinuit , &c. making it no more then the faculty of explicating , or interpreting what is lawful , what not , &c. in a word , no more then the power of deciding cases of conscience , seu sic de jure publicè respondendi illúdque dicendi , &c. the truth of which , i shall , with all due respect , for a while take boldnesse to examine . first , by yeelding , or for the present not denying , that there was or might be an office or power among the jews intrusted to some select elders of the people , of teaching and giving publique responses ( by way of deciding cases of conscience , though not by way of judicature ) what was to be accounted lawful , what not , both by the law of god , and the tradition of the antients ; which yet being supposed and granted , i must secondly interpose , that it is not thereby proved that this is called in the talmud , or by any of those writers , the power of binding and loosing , ( or that the power of binding and loosing , is by them so described ) but ( which is quite another thing ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a power of teaching or instructing , &c. what is lawful , what forbidden . nor will it be a proof of any force to conclude ( that which we have no reason to believe without a proof , or some kinde of affinity in the phrases , viz. ) that this power of binding is that power of teaching , and no more , only because there was such a power of teaching among the jews . for if we will judge à pari , experience proves the contrary , in this church of ours ; where though there be a power of binding , and a munus docendi , an office of teaching , &c. yet no man is bound from thence to acknowledge these two to be all one , but we have long believed them to be two faculties , or offices , the one given the apostles in the donation of the keys , the other in the mission to preach ; ( and though it were granted that we were mistaken in affirming them to be two such distinct faculties , yet would not that hinder the truth of this assertion , that in our books they are so distinguished , the question being now of the fact , & not of the right , and it being clear that in our practice our preaching is one thing , and our excommunicating is another ) and secondly , because 't is clear , there were two distinct powers among the jews , one of declaring in foro , as well as the other extra forum , one judicial , as well as the other doctrinal ; and sure it would be but a poore supersedeas , or prohibition to keep the sanhedrin among them from judging and punishing any offender brought before them , by telling them that there was among the jews a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a licence or faculty of declaring what was lawful , without any power of punishing ; for they would be soon able to say , that 't was by some other power ( and not by that of declaring ) that they undertook thus to judge and punish : and let me add that although the power among the jews were acknowledged only to be a civil power , yet might christ in his church set up an ecclesiastical power proportionable to that , and imitate that in the sacred , which they used onely in civil judicatures , as anon we shall have occasion to demonstrate . and thirdly , the phrase of the gospel , from whence we pretend , is not the facultas , faculty , or power of binding , but the donation of keyes , and with that , christs promise , that whatsoever they shall bind on earth , shall be bound in heaven : and therefore i conceive this will not be a convincing way of inferring this conclusion . we must therefore in the next place proceed to examine the sect. 3 reasons , or arguments produced to perswade us , that the power of binding and loosing is no more then the power of declaring , &c. what is prohibited , what is permitted , the office of the casuist only . and these reasons i can finde to be but two . 1. that ligatum & solutum planè millies in talmudicis ex vetustissimo sect. 4 ecclesiae illius usu denotat quid vetitum , quid permissum . 2. that in some places of greek authors , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to bind and loose are used also . for the first of these , i shall first say , that if it were true , that sect. 5 the idiom of the talmudists were ex vetustissimo ecclesiae illius usu , out of the most antient use of that church the law of moses , and the scriptures of the old testament , being the records of the most antient church , some footsteps of it might be expected there ; but i shall suppose there are no such to be found , not onely because i have there sought them in vain , but because i presume the author would have conceived any testimony from thence to be more authentick then the talmud , and so would certainly have produced them , if there had been any . secondly , for the talmudists acception of the phrases ; first i might say , that we are no way obliged to interpret greek words in the new testament by the use of the talmudists , because though the traditions concerning hebrew customes mentioned in the talmud may reasonably be thought antienter then christs time ( and so the testimonies brought thence be worth the heeding for such , and fit sometimes to be used for the explaining the like customs mentioned in the new testament ) yet the booke it self , and consequently the word in it ( which only we have now to consider ) was written , and set out long after the new testament , the misnaioth , or first 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which contain the text of the talmud , being set forth by the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tannaim , or doctores mischinici , about the year 150 after christ , who as they professe to have had their beginning per continuam successionem acceptionis legis oralis à mose , saith buxtorf , by a continual succession of tradition of the oral law from the times of moses , so they acknowledge to end in r. jehudah hakkàdosch , ( stiled hannasi , the chief or prince , and by way of eminence rabbi , when he is cited in the gemara ) who lived under antoninus in the midst of the second century . after these tannaim , are the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 amoriam whom scaliger cals 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the authours of the gemara , and of that gemara , i. e. those disputations , and decisions of those learned men at jerusalem together with the mischna forementioned , doth the jerusalem-talmud consist , and was set forth f an . 230. as the collection of the like disputations and decisions on the mischna , which were had in academiis pombedithana , soriah , and nahardeah , make up the talmud babylonicum , which was compleated an . 500. this will be sufficient to shew that the words of christ , either as they were spoken by him , or repeated by the evangelists , ought not to be conceived to have imitated the phrases of the talmudists so long after them ; and there will be as little reason to believe ( what is left the only possible ) that the writers of the talmuds have imitated the phrases in the gospel , being themselves both jews and enemies to the christian religion ; and besides , if the idiom of the talmudists were of any weight in this matter , yet sure it is not sufficient to weigh down the contrary interpretation of the christian fathers , ( who are to us in all reason to be heeded , as the veryer talmudists of the two , the traditors and deliverers of our gospel , and creed unto us ) or the use of it among the jews that have written in greek , particularly of the author of ecclesiasticus , who is conceived to be the famous ben-sira , and with him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is punctually to forgive sins , c. 28.2 . however no way able to extend it self to that other place in st john , where the phrase is varyed , and the [ power of remitting and retaining of sins ] is given to the disciples , which will have no analogy with that which is here pretended ; for whatever should be granted of the words ligatum & solutum , b●ing all one with prohibited , &c. the retaining or remitting of sins , will be distant from it , for sure that will not be , to declare one mans sins unlawfull , anothers lawful , which it must do , if this interpretation be applyed to that place also . this being premised as an answer sufficient to take away sect. 6 the force , or convincingnesse of this interpretation , i shall ex abundanti superadd , that i have used som care to examine those words , and to observe their importance in those , and other jewish writings : i shall give you an account of it . the hebrew word for binding is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which i shall make no scruple to acknowledge , doth in the talmud many times signifie to forbid and prohibit ; and from thence 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies a thing forbidden , prohibited , unlawful ; onely by the way i shal crave leave to shew you by what degrees it comes to signifie thus . the word in the old testament signifies to bind , ( and sure that is the best interpreter of idioms in the new ) and accordingly is rendred by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. and is used commonly for binding with cords , and sometimes for that band , or obligation , that proceeds from having made a vow as numb . 30.4 . and is then rendred 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 definition or decree , because by that vow i bind , or define , or determine my self to such a performance ; farther then this , 't is true this word is rendred by our translators , num. 11.28 . to [ forbid ] lord moses forbid them , where yet 't is observable that the forbiding there , which joshua desires , is applied to the persons , and and not to the thing , and signifies a checking , repressing , [ lord moses suffered them not , cohibeto eos ] as when by chiding , or disciplining , a superior restrains another ; according to which use of the word it is , that philip de aquin. makes it agree in sense with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 prohibuit and cohibuit , forbidding , and repressing : and thus it will be very agreeable with our sense of binding , as that signifies church-censure , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , disciplining , repressing offenders by that means . in the whole scripture i believe there will not one place be found where that word is rendred by the 72. by any word signifying barely to prohibit , or the like , unlesse you will say it doth dan. 6.7 , 8 , 9. where the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is rendred 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a decree , and yet if you examine that place , and the nature of the decree , you shall finde , that it was not a bare prohibition , but a binding to punishment upon non-performance ( for the decree was there , v. 7. that whosoever shall ask any petition from either god or man , but of thee , o king , shall be cast into the den of lions ) and so the decree is that designation to the punishment of casting into the den , which is there call'd 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 binding , as when the jugde decrees the offender to be excommunicated , that act of judicature is a decree , yet neverthelesse a binding , ( this binding being a judicial act , and from thence receiving its force of obligation ) and è converso in that a binding , or obligation to punishment ; that it is such a decree , to wit , a decree sub poenâ , that such a thing shall be done , so saith schindler , that the chaldee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is obligavit ad obedientiam , aut poenam , binding to obedience , or penalty , and elias levita , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 &c. every thing from which either sinne or punishment commeth unto him that doth it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is said to be bound , or is call'd assur ; and therefore munster giving an account of the use of the word in the commentaries of the rabbins , saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies edictum aut sententiam , quâ quis tenetur , &c. by which any man is bound to punishment , if he obey it not . in like manner as he that vows , binds , ( and the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 num. 30.4 . &c. belongs peculiarly to that ) because in vowing he doth either by words of execration explicitly , or else by intimation implicitly , call punishment upon himself , if he perform not his vow , and so binds himself to that punishment . and so still the word [ binding ] by denoting a decree in this kinde , doth not at all vary from our present sense of binding by way of censure , which now we contend for , but rather confirm and concurre with it ; and so i conceive ( in those excerpta about excommunication , which j. coch hath set down in latine out of maimonides ) those words of maimonides do import , quod totus israel decrevit , non observat princeps , &c. what all israel decreed , the prince observes not : he speaks of inflicting anathema's , and i shall grant that the word rendred decrevit , is in the original 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the word for binding ( in reference to which it follows in the next words , by him set down , remittitur à laeso , si ei satisfecerit , &c. the injur'd person remits , if satisfaction be made him ) and from thence shall conclude , that even when it is to be rendred decrevit , it may yet note punishment , particularly that of excommunication , or decree ad excommunicandum , sentence to punishment being a kinde of legislation , and all binding to that , an act of command or power . having thus considered the verb 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i shall as freely grant sect. 7 that the participles , or nounes deduced from thence , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 among the rabbins or talmudists , signifie very often a thing forbidden , prohibited , unlawfull ( though in the old testament again the nouns there used 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifie not so , but are taken in a regular sense , and so rendred by the 72 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a band , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 an ordinance or decree , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , bound or imprison'd , and the like , and not the thing unlawfull or prohibited ) which yet being granted and added to what was before granted of the talmudical use of the verb , comes not home to prove the objecters conclusion , which is this , that the verb 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies among the talmudists , decernere , explicare , interpretari , declarare , de ligato , vel quid ligatum sit , i. e. quid vetitum : to decern , explicat , interpret , declare concerning a thing bound , or what is bound , i. e. what is forbidden : for to prove this sense of the verb , that other supposed use of the participle is not sufficient , any more then my confessing amatum to signifie a thing loved , will conclude me to affirm , that amo signifies to declare a thing to be loved , which we know signifies formally to love , and nothing else . that the verb signifies to forbid , or decree , per modum legislationis sect. 8 ( which is all that could be deduced from these premises , ( though supposed true ) of ligatum in the talmud signifying nothing but illicitum ) 't is acknowledged , but that will not serve the turn , thereby wholly to evacuate & nullifie the power of the keyes , which is pretended to belong to the church from these texts ; if the apostles had this power to forbid or decree , this were 1. more then to interpret or declare a thing to be unlawful , the office of making laws is more then that of the casuist , or counsellour , or preacher : and beside , secondly , it would be but reason to suppose those decrees backt with some power of censures against resisters , and so indeed the word imports , to decree sub poenâ under penalty , and not simply to decree . but the thing for which this talmudical interpretation contends , and which we oppose , is that this power of binding is onely a power of declaring , and explaining a thing to be unlawful ; and for this from all that is pretended , or offer'd to our view , i have after all my search no temptation to suspect , that even the talmudists themselves do use the word . the verb with them may signifie [ to prohibit ] and the nouns , and participle , a thing prohibited , or unlawful , and that is the utmost that buxtorf could observe of the words among the talmudists , or that the author of the interpretation offers any proof for [ ligatum & solutum , i. e. millies in talmudicis vetitum lege sa●râ aut permissum ; ] and if these notions will be taken , then the meaning of [ whatsoever yee shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven ] will be , that whatsoever they shall by decree prohibit on earth , shall be prohibited , or unlawfull in heaven ; which were onely to exchange the power of censures , for the power of giving laws , which , as it is more then that of the casuist , so , i conceive , is never to be found any where without power of punishing also . sect. 9 this i conceive to be answer sufficient to all that is produced , or pretended , even upon supposition that the talmud were the umpire , or the use of words there the best nomenclature for the new testament . but then over and above , we must again remember , that this talmudical observation will be but little conviction to us , who finde that the writers of the new testament have no sympathy with the talmud in this matter , but use variety of other words to expresse [ commanding , or decreeing , or forbidding ; ] such are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and the like , but never 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or any of that making ; and in like manner have other phrases to expresse a thing unlawful , or forbidden ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and the like , but never 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or any thing like it : neither is it , i conceive , pretended , that these words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 have any such sense in any other place of the new testament ; but onely in these two , which are ( parallel one to another , and so ) in effect but one , and that the matter of the present controversie , and so a petitio principii , when 't is made use of to confute him that concludes the censures from thence . adde unto these yet farther , that even in the talmud it self sect. 10 the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( of which this observation is made ) signifies binding too , and that not only in the obvious vulgar senses , but in that also which we here contend for , of binding by censures , or binding over to punishment , ( obstrinxit ad poenam , as schindler renders the chaldee , and as elias levita the rabbinical word , be bound over to punishment ) and so with great reason may be resolved ( even when it signifies to prohibite ) to belong only to such penal prohibitions , or at least , ( belonging at first to such only ) to have fallen after in common use ( which sure hath been observ'd to bend words from their primitive sense ) to signifie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 all kind of decrees or prohibitions : which surely will not exclude , but contain under it that which we now contend for . i shall shew the strength of this argument by a parallel , as i conceive , exactly proportion'd to it . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in arabick signifies millies , very ordinarily [ to g forbid , or resolve any thing to be unlawful , from thence the noun 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is vetitum , any thing prohibited or forbidden , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 prohibition ; suppose now in some discourses concerning the kinds or degrees of excommunication among the iews , or of the power of the sanhedrin , or indifferently in any jewish writing , i should meet with the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and render it in latine prohibuit , interdixit , and a friend ingenuously admonish me that it ought to be rendred anathematizavit , devovit ; would it be thought reason or ingenuity in me to reply to my admonisher , no , but i have rendred it aright , for in arabick 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies prohibuit , and therefore 't is but an ignorance in the arabick dialect , to render the hebrew anathematizavit , and but a popular error ( to be reform'd from hence ) in them , that conceive there was any kind of excommunication among the iewes , meant by that word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whereas 't is clear , that word signifies onely prohibition , and therefore belongs among the jews only ad theologiae praeceptivae munus , or to the office of teaching and interpreting , what is [ vetitum , vel interdictum lege sacrâ . ] if , i say , i should deal thus with any peece of plain hebrew , my first question would be , whether this account of my rendring that word would be accepted ; and if not , my second now is , whether the processe of the present arguing hath not done the like , or somewhat more . sect. 11 this wil be yet clearer , by proceeding to consider the words which are opposite to it , ( and to which this author refers when he saith , solutum millies in talmudicis licitum aut permissum ; a thing loosed is taken a thousand times in the talmud for lawful or permitted ) such are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which i also acknowledge to be taken amongst the talmudists for licitum & permissum , lawful and unforbidden . sect. 12 of which yet somewhat must be further observed , 1. that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from whence they come , in hiphil signifies solvere , to loose ; ( as indeed that which hath no obligation laid on it , which is loose from all band to obedience , or obligation to punishment , is properly resolv'd to be lawful ) but then this hinders not , but that the verb in hiphil may still signifie , ( and indeed even among the rabbins ordinarily doth ) to loose , both properly & metaphorically ; properly , as to loose or unty those that are bound with cords , or such like bands , properly so called , as ps . 146.7 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 solvite vinctos , loose those that are bound , & ps . 105.20 . the king sent 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and loosed them , where the chaldee paraphrase reads 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & solvit eum , and the 72 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and psal . 146.7 . dominus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 qui solvit vinctos , loosing men out of prison : or metaphorically , and that in a double sense , either as it is applied to doubts , or difficulties , and then 't is to dissolve them ; or to persons , and then 't is to let loose or unoblige , and in this latter sense j. coch cites it ex cap. 1. nedarim , that on whom the anathema or cherem is inflicted coram , or in his presence 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it shall not be remitted to him , but before his face also : where this word signifies clearly remission or absolution , and that from a sentence of excommunication ; so again in that constitution of the law cited by buxtorf , the word is twice used most clearly in our sense , he that continues in niddui 30 dayes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and desires not to have it loosed , they separate him , or put him under niddui again , & if he continue so 30 dayes more , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and desires not to have it loosed , ( or as he renders it , relaxate ) they excommunicate , or put him under cherem ; & therefore schindler mentioning 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and the rabbins use of it , renders it simply solutio , loosing ; and there is a saying in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in which it bears this sense . if any man swear in this form , [ if this be true , let me be excommunicate in this world , and in the other ] and be perjured , he cannot be absolved by any . another word synonymous to this , and ordinarily used by sect. 13 the talmudists is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and that primarily signifying ( as the other did ) to loose or dissolve , as to loose cords which tye , or camels which are tyed with them , is by the talmudists taken for h absolving , remitting , forgiving , pardoning ; so saith elias levita in thisby , it is used by the rabbins for pardoning and remitting , as , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the merciful god pardon hillel ! and in the prayer that begins , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 all shall be remitted , or pardon'd . so in a place cited by coch out of gem. moed . caton . c. 3. quid remedii ? age cum ipso 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ut remittat tibi , that he may loose you from the excommunication : and again , adi principem , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that he may remit it to you . so c. 1. nedarim , steti coram r. huna , cum audiens quandam nomen dei in vanum proferre , eam excommunicaret , & statim eâ praesente anathema relaxaret ; there the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is used again , for loosing in our sense , relaxating of , or freeing from a censure of excommunication , directly all one with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 remittatur ipsi , following in the same place , which even now we produced . a third word there is ordinarily used to this purpose , of sect. 14 the same importance , and that is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . so in i moed katon , sapiens potest seipsum excommunicare , a wiseman may excommunicate himself 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and free or loose himself again : and so in that out of 1. nedarim , in j. coch , excommunicationem posse è vestigio rescindi , there the word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in both , contrary to excommunication . by the little that hath been said , it may sufficiently appear , sect. 15 that to bind and to loose may be found even among the talmudists to signifie somewhat beside interpreting or declaring , quid vetitum , quid permissum sacrâ lege , what is forbidden , what permitted by the law of god , as that referres simply ad solum docendi , & interpretandi , vel theologiae praeceptivae munus , onely to the office of teaching , and interpreting , and of preceptive divinity , &c. and that 't is no way contrary to the stile or idiom of those writers to affirm , that binding and loosing belongs to censures , ( and not only to stating of cases of conscience ) even if the talmud were our judge : for sure there is nothing more ordinary in that , then to heare of loosing them who are excommunicate ; which must needs imply , that they which were so excommunicate , till they were loosed , were supposed bound also . sect. 16 and therefore it may be observed ( in passing ) that the learned h. grotius having in his notes on matth. 16.19 . made this talmudical observation , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to bind , & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to loose , are by the hebrewes attributed to the interpreters of the law , ( which seems something agreeable to this observation ) conceiving the keyes there spoken of , to be the keyes of knowledge , luk. 11.52 . doth yet on matth. 16.19 . interpret 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 binding and loosing there , by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 retaining and remitting , joh. 20.23 . and in his notes on that third place acknowledges , that thus the apostles did remit , either when by baptisme they received into the church those that professed the faith , or when after the testimony of serious repentance they received into their communion those that had been lapst or fallen , and applies to it that of the 2 cor. 2.10 . to whom ye forgive any thing , i forgive also , ( which belongs clearly to the excommunicate , incestuous person , in the former epistle , who was it seems by this ecclesiastical course brought to a capacity of remission , and absolution by that time , and now absolved by st. p●ul ) and for the conjunction of both these senses in the interpretation of that place , he produces s. cyprians authority , ep. 73. to which i shall only adde , that in another part of his notes upon the gospels , luk. 6.22 . this very judicious man ( whose education might have given him as great prejudices against the prelacie , as any other ) hath given us a very excellent tract concerning this subject of excommunication , or censures ; and at last resolves out of st. cyprians epistles , totum ferme christianae disciplinae vigorem in istis judiciis constitisse , &c. that well nigh all the vigor of christian discipline consisted in those judgments of the church . quem morem qui ex ecclesiâ sublatum volunt , gravissimum infligunt vulnus disciplinae , quam corruptis adeò christianorum moribus ad veterem severitatem reduci maximum sit operae pretium , tantùm abest , ut ulla ejus pars reliqua laxari debeat , &c. which custome they which would remove out of the church , inflict a most grievous wound on discipline , which ( now in this notable corruption of the manners of christians ) it were most excellently worth any mans pains to have reduced to its antient severity , so far is it from being fit , that any remaining member or part of it should be loosed , or put out of joynt ; and in another place , disciplinam morum ego non refugio , ut modò pax coeat , nulla futura sit tam severa , cui non libenter me meosque sim subjecturus . for the discipline in order to manners , i would willingly subject my self , and all that belong to me , to the severest that could be brought into the church . but this by the way . for the perfecting of this answer , and satisfying all the contrary sect. 17 appearances fully , it must yet farther be observed , that there is one thing presumed , and not undertaken to be proved in this objection , without which all the observations from the talmud are utterly invalid and unconcluding , and that one thing not at all to be granted by us , being indeed , as i conceive , very far from truth . it is this ; that by the particle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 [ whatsoever ye shall bind , &c. ] is noted the thing , and not the person , for so that interpretation requires [ what thing soever ye shall declare to be unlawful , &c. ] whereas it 's no new thing in all languages and dialects to put the neuter for the masculine gender , things for persons , and that in the new testament , is not without example ; as joh. 17.7 . 't is our saviours dialect ( and it is the very word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which we have now in hand ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ &c. whatsoever , i. e. all those men , v. 6. and so 1 joh. 5.4 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 expounded by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. v. 18. every thing , i. e. every one , that is born of god. thus when s. john , apoc. 21.27 . speaketh of man , and other the like inhabitants of the new jerusalem , he saith , there shall not enter in there any thing that defileth , or that worketh abomination , or a lye ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the neuter , which is , no doubt , no unclean abominable person , &c. so 2 thess . 2.4 . the apostle speaking of antichrist , saith , that he exalteth himself above all that is called god ; where the [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 all ] in the neuter , sure signifies in the masc●line , every person that partakes of that name , the king and potentates of the earth ; so heb. 7.7 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the neuter , for the lesser or inferior person , v. 19. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for no man ; and ch. 12 , 13. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for him that is lame : with which examples the phrase in this text bea●●s such proportion , that it cannot be unjust to resolve , that it is at least possible , that the neuters here may in sense be masculine also ; which very possibility were enough to evacuate the talmudical observation , the accommodation of which to this place supposes the neutral sense of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be certainly there meant , and is not reconcilable with the masculine . for to say [ whomsoever you shall declare to be unlawful or prohibited , &c were not sense ; whereas on the other side , the granting the neutral sense , would not so necessarily destroy our pretensions , this rendring of the words being proper enough , and home to our turn , [ whatsoever yee shall bind on earth , i. e. whatever sins of any trespasser ye shall conclude under the censures ] or again , whatsoever punishment you shall bind on mens shoulders ( the speech being still limited to this one sort of punishments ) it shall be bound or ratified in heaven : though the truth is , the personal notion of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , being so agreeable to other phrases of the scripture , i have no temptation to doubt but that it is the importance of the place [ whatsoever , i. e. whomsoever you shall bind on earth , by the power of the keyes , shut out of this lower kingdom of heaven , conclude under the ecclesiastical bands , or censures , &c. shall be bound in heaven , &c. ] i. e. by god ratified there , ( supposing that what they do , they do according to the rule , ) this is most commodious & agreeable to the mention of the keyes ( to which 't is annext , matt. 16. ) which certainly denote power of receiving , or excluding not some thing , but some person , & to the trespassing brother supposed to become refractary ( to which 't is annext , matth. 18. ) who is still a person also ; to which i will onely add that in the beginning of that discourse , matth. 18.11 . there is another manifest example of a neuter word in a masculine sense , the sonne of man came to save , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that which was lost , i. e. those little ones , v. 10. of whom god would not that one should perish , v. 14. sect. 18 to this account of that first argument ( sufficient i conceive to prove that this interpretation hanging thus loose from the talmudical use of the word , is not in the rendring this text of the new testament , necessary to be received ) i shal yet farther add these two observations more , 1. that the talmudical sense cannot have place in the latter part of christs speech [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 shall be bound in heaven ] and therefore will be improbable in the former . for sure the binding in heaven ] is somewhat more then gods interpretation or declaration of the lawfulnesse of any thing ; and if the church should be thought unfit to have any kind of power , yet heaven is acknowledged capable of it ; besides , the form and composure of the words will enforce , that if that pretended talmudical sense were admitted in both places , gods declaring any thing to be lawful , or unlawful , must be consequent to the ministers declaration here , which will be very unreasonable ; for though gods censures may by vertue of his promise follow the censures of the church , yet gods laws ( for such are his declarations of what is law ) sure cannot , or if they do , this will be a great assurance that there is some power in the church , when it is so backt by god. a second argument to this purpose may be taken from the sect. 19 analogy of scripture , or comparing the two places in matth. of binding and loosing , with that third in john of remitting and retaining ; which i conceive is proved to belong to the same matter , whatsoever that should prove to be , but then will not be so capable of the talmudical interpretation , for sure that will not be so clear from those writers also , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to retain , hath that sense among the talmudists , which was imposed upon 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to bind , which for the present i shall take for granted , till some proof be offer'd to the contrary , and in that found the power of the church , ( supposing it were not deducible from s. matthew ) and then by analogie of those places in s. matthew , with this in s. john , apply it to those places also . now for the second proof which is offer'd by the same hand sect. 20 against the received interpretation , the places in greek authors where the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or binding is vouched to signifie forbidding onely , though i might justly say , that forbidding is much more then declaring , or interpreting a thing to be forbidden , that an act of power , and not onely of doctrine , of a magistrate , and not onely of a casuist ; and secondly , that we are not wont to require the dictions of the new testament , which have so much of the old testament hebrew idiom in them , to be tryed by attical heathen greek writers , y●t shall i not now need to refuse that trial which is here offer'd . two onely places there are produced ( or in the margent appointed to be consulted with ) to purpose , eustathius and didymus in hom. ii. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and inscription . isidis ap . diod. sic. l. 1. these two places i have with all attention considered , and shall truly report what i have found in them . sect. 21 eustathius brings several interpretations of these words in hom. the first of which is , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may signifie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i. e. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; which that you may understand , you must know the occasion of homers speech , it was this ; patroclus was slain , and achilles knew not how to help him , or avenge his death , for which he hath very passionate sorrow , even to wish he were dead himself , because he could not avenge that death of his , this he thus expresses in homers language : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . i would , or , o that i might presently dye , in that i was not able to avenge the death of my companion ! he dyed far from his countrey , and mars , or the fate of war hath bound , or hindred , or restrained me from being avenger of his blood : where it must be observed , that mars did not give any precept or interdict to achilles not to avenge patroclus , or declare that it was unlawful , but only that the fate of the war had not so far favour'd him , as that he could find any means to do it , which he calls binding or hindring him ; and therefore didymus , to whom we are referred , renders it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , hindred , and explains the whole matter by this paraphrase : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . the fight having deprived me of my arms , would not suffer me to go out and help patroclus ; and so it seems the forbidding , by which they render 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is only that of hindring or stopping ( which is a natural effect of the vulgar notion of the word , as it signifies hinding , he that is bound being hindred or stopt from his course or action ) not of prohibiting or interdicting . but then moreover you must consider , that the same eustathius and didymus observe in that last verse many different lections , as for example , one especially , in stead of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 mars in the nominative case , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hurt , or mischief in the genitive , which reading they reject not , but accordingly explain the place , and render 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , damni averruncatorem ▪ and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , patroclus had need of me , to avert that mischief from him ; and this , saith eustathius , the antients thus paraphrase 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , mars wanted my action , or the help which might have come by me ; and aristarchus somewhat to the same purpose , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , he wanted me to avert the danger of the warre ; and agreeably didymus , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : which different lection thus explained by them , takes off all colour , or pretence of affirming that binding signifies prohibiting , or interdicting in that place , but onely standing in need of , which is another sense of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and so still 't is apparent , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may signifie somewhat else in that place , and if it doe signifie binding , and that be rendred 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to forbid , that yet it must not be taken in that sense , that forbidding signifies preceptive interdiction , especially not the bare pronouncing a thing unlawfull , ( the sense which 't is brought to prove , and which alone is against our pretensions ) but only forbidding , as when the matter forbids , hindring , or restraining , or binding from a possibility of doing it , and just so the hebr. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by which philip de aquin. renders 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 binding , ordinarily signifies to hinder . as for the other place referr'd to , the inscription of isis , thus sect. 22 it lies in diodorus siculus , l. 1. p. 16. of stephanus's edition . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i am isis the queen of the whole region , educated by , or under mercury , and whatsoever i shall bind , no body can loose . what advantage can be taken at these words thus lying ( & not restrained , by either antecedents , or consequents ) toward the justifying or approving of the foremention'd interpretation , or acception of the phrase , for declaring , or pronouncing of the unlawfulnesse of a thing , i do not fully discern ; for why may not the later words passe for an interpretation of the former , and so the sense be , that she being queen of the whole region had all power in her hands , to do , or constitute ( not onely what lawes , but ) what punishments she would , and then , that no body had power to undo whatsoever she thus did , to rescind , or loose , or absolve what she so bound ? in as wide a sense as this , i could produce many places in greek authors , particularly a passage of proclus out of plato in his sixth discourse about the eternity of the world ; where to prove the world cannot be dissolv'd by the creator of it , and yet by none but the creator , he expresses it often in these two words , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] meaning by binding , the composing the whole compages of the world , and by loosing the destroying , or , as we say , the dissolution of it : this , i confesse , is nothing to our sense of the words , ( and as little to that other ) and yet very neer as much as the place now cited . being left to guesse what was the occasion of producing this place to that other purpose , i shall think it possible that it was occasion'd by this , that in the margent stephanus hath set 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in stead of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which if it were conceived to be a scholion , might be taken to be a testimony , that binding signifies making of lawes , as far as that scholiasts authority would reach . for the present , i shall suppose that this is it , because i cannot think of any other way to help this medium to inferre the desired conclusion in any degree , and yet make no question but there was some : but then , if that be it , i must interpose , 1. that that in the margent is not a scholion , but an emendation , or various lection , as the mark prefixed signifies ; and then seeing 't is assured , that diod. sic. or the inscription it self which he sets down , had not both these readings , it will thence follow , that either it was truly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ( and then there is no authority from thence for any signification of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) or else that it was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and then there is no appearance of proof , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies there 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; and this is sufficient to the matter in hand , which part soever of the dilemma be accepted . sect. 23 but having said this , i shall superadde ex abundanti my opinion of the importance of that inscription , viz. that isis the queen of that region , was taught or instructed by mercury in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , hidden philosophy ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , dark representations of truth , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the enigmatical wisdome which their theologie was full of , mention'd by k plut. de is . & osir . and that no body was able to reveale , or expound her riddles or mysteries . the ground of this my interpretation is , an inscription of isis's temple mention'd by plutarch , immediately upon his discourse of that enigmaticall theology in the place foremention'd . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . the temple of minerva ( which they take for isis ) in saos had such an inscription ( not literally this , but such an one , or to this purpose ) i am every thing that hath been , and that is , and that shall be , and my vaile ( or what i shall think fit to conceale ) no mortall hath ever been able to discover . this seems to be a paraphrase of that other inscription in diodorus , and then though the words differ ( which the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 [ not the very same , but such an one ] intimates ) yet the sense of the one seems to be fully exprest by the other , & then the conclusion will be this , that as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in diodorus , signifying no more then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to reveale in plutarch ( as to loose a riddle , a secret , is to reveal it , to which the key of knowledge in the scripture may also referre , ) belongs not at all to the matter in hand , or declaring a thing to be lawfull , so the contrary 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not applyable to that purpose of forbidding , or declaring a thing to be forbidden ▪ and so much for that testimony also . to all this which hath been said the reader may farther add , sect. 24 that suidas , hesychius , and phavorinus have no other notion of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ then that of binding in bands , and therefore render it by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ●nd 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 onely in hesychius in one place i find these words , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : which words stand in need of some emendation ( as a very great part of that book doth ) & may be thus set right , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a man bound by law , i. e. a prisoner ; or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , bound , i. e. a prisoner of the law ; or else this seems to be the designe of them , that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is used in a sense proportionable to that wherein 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 law , is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a band , as indeed every law is a band to all those that are under it : but then you may observe , that this is a very distant sense of the word from that which was cited from the talmudists , ( where the thing bound is said to be forbidden , ) for here 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies bound , or commanded , and so this ( beside that it gives the church a power from christ , of commanding and making laws , to which in any probability the power of punishing would be consequent ) is little to our present disquisition . sect. 25 i cannot satisfie my self , that i have vindicated my position sufficiently , unlesse unto the consideration of the former objections , i add also some few words in taking notice of what the socinians have resolved to this matter ; which i shall transcribe out of volkelius , de ver . cel . l. 6. c. 4. where having exprest the power of binding and loosing , to be the power , alios quidem reatu peccatorum quodammodo constringendi , alios verò ab illo absolvendi ; of binding some in some manner under the guilt of sins , but of absolving others , he resolves this to consist in this onely , ut pro authoritate muneris , quod tanquam christi ligatus sustinebat , aliis quidem nempe omnibus in christum credentibus , atque ex animo ei obtemperantibus , remissionem peccatorum , ipsius nomine offerret , aliis verò poenas sempiternas denunciaret . that by authority of that office which he sustains as an embassador of christ , he should offer in his name remission of sins to some , to wit , to all that believe in christ , and cordially obey him , but denounce unto others eternall punishments . so that in effect the power of binding and loosing should be onely the power of offering remission of sins to penitents , that is , preaching the gospel , and no more . sect. 26 this magisterial affirmation having no tender or offer of proof annext to it , will need no long stay to consider it ; what ever is in it of poyson , or danger , will easily be dispell'd by an antidote , which the very same shop in another box will yield us , and that is another very distant interpretation of that power of binding and loosing , c. 15. of that book ( how faln from the same pen of him that had before said in eo tantum fuisse constitutam , ut remissionem offerret , &c. that it consisted onely in the offering of remission , &c. or , by what means reconcilable with that sense , i will not go about to conjecture ) where affirming the power of exterminating impious christians , to be intrusted to the church , he proves it , 1. from the words of st. paul about the excommunicating the incestuous corinthian ; then from this , that christ speaking of the contumacious trespasser refusing to obey the church , and thereupon commanding him to be accounted as a heathen , and a publican , in coelo ratum esse dicit , quicquid ecclesia in terris ligat , aut solvit , affirms that to be ratified in heaven , whatsoever it is the church on earth bindes or looses , i. e. quoscunque vel à fidelium commercio segregat , vel in eorum numerum reponit , whomsever the church separates from the commerce of the faithfull , or restores to the number of them : where i conceive it apparent , ( unlesse some very close sophisme lye hid under plain words ) that binding signifies disterminating , excommunicating , segregating from the commerce of the faithfull , which i willingly embrace , as the concession of that man , and the sense of his fellows , very fit to be confronted to his former negation , especially being backt , as it is , with a conjecture of his ( which i have long thought to be most probable ) that st. paul forbidding timothy , to lay hands suddenly on any man , 1 tim. 5.22 . lest he partake of other mens sins , refers to the reception of penitents that had been formerly excommunicate . for such , he truly saith , were wont to be received into the church again by imposition of hands . evidences of that custome he brings from the narrations of sect. 27 victor , about the vandalick persecution , l. 2. qui nobis poenitentiae manus collaturi sunt , & reconciliationis indulgentiam , obstrictos peccato peccatorum vinculis soluturi : who confer on us the hands of penitence , and favour of reconciliation , loosing from the bands of sinnes , those which are bound by sin . where the poenitentiae manus , the hands of penitence , and loosing from bands of sin , belong to those which were bound , but now are reconciled : and the like from the 5th canon of the councell of carthage , dist . 50. presbyteris ac diaconis , si quando de gravi aliquâ culpâ convicti à ministerio remoti fuissent manus non imponerentur , ut poenitentibus , vel aliis ex fidelium laicis . that presbyters and deacons , when upon conviction of any grievous fault they are removed from the ministry , should not have imposition of hands , as penitents , &c. and out of fulgentius , ep. 1. de conjug . illâ aegrotâ acceptâ manus impositione poenitentiam secundum morem , quem habet christiana religio , peregit ; she performed her penance by receiving imposition of hands according to the manner observed in the christian religion . to these you may add that of alcimus ep. 24. manus impositionem adhibete converso ab haeresi ; they that were recover'd from heresie , were to have imposition of hands , a signe of absolution . interdictâ nominis ejus in posterum , si ex corde convertitur , mentione ; and his name no longer to be mention'd in the bedrole of the hereticks . and the author contra praedestin . l. 3. non ausi sunt ecclesiarum pontifices manum imponere poenitenti , nisi confessionem voluntariam ostendenti . the bishops durst not impose hands on the penitent , unlesse he exprest a voluntary confession ; and many the like . and in the chron. of jo. gerundens . speaking of the arrians synod of toledo , congregated by leovigildus , one of the canons is , de romanâ religione ad nostram catholicam fidem venientes non debere baptizari , sed tantummodo per manus impositionem & communionis perceptionem ablui . they which came over to them from that which they counted heresie , should only have imposition of hands , &c. and not baptism anew , and many other passages there are of that kind . this is a very probable interpretation , as antient as s. cyprian , and may , by the way , farther be attested not only by the analogy between absolution , and healing diseases , of which imposition was the ceremony , but also by the context it self , where v. 19. is set down the proceeding , by way of censure , against a presbyter , and the publike checking of sinners , v. 20. a charge to do all 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , v. 21. without prejudging , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , nothing by favour or inclination ; and then immediately follows , lay hands on no man suddenly ; absolution very properly annext to censures , ( and i conceive a caution , that by knowing mens sinnes , he be not brought to partake with them , but that he keep himself unpolluted , in the remainder of that verse , upon which the 23. verse may follow pertinently , though as in a parenthesis , that timothy may drink a little wine for his health , and not incurre that danger of partaking of other mens sinnes ) and then v. 24. a rule of direction for that whole matter , that as some mens sins are conspicuous before-hand , and so bring them per modum meriti praecedentis , by way of precedent merit , to censure ; and in some other men the sins follow after censure also , as when there is no reformation upon censures , ( in which case there must be no absolution ) so in like manner also mens good works ( in case they do reform upon censure ) are , or must be manifest before absolution , ( and therefore the antient canons require the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 good works or almes-deeds in the penitent to prepare for absolution ) and those that are not so , ( i. e. their not bringing forth such worthy fruits of repentance ) cannot be concealed , and so by that means timothy may discern who are fit to be absolved , who not , and so all the context clearly belongs to this matter . but this by the way . onely having so pregnant an opportunity , i shall add what sect. 28 i conceive concerning the imposition of hands , heb. 6.2 . joyned there with the doctrine of baptismes . the apostle there had mention'd 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the discourse of the beginning of christ , i. e. the first things that we read of in the gospel ; and he refers them , as i conceive , to four heads , 1. repentance , or change from dead works ; 2. faith on god : these two he calls the doctrine of baptismes , & of the imposition of hands , either by way of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( of which i gave you l examples in the sacred stile ) and then the doctrine of baptismes will be appropriated to faith on god , unto which men are baptiz'd , and the doctrine of imposition of hands to repentance , which is the preparatory to absolution ; or else both of these together , faith and repentance , must be affirmed to be the doctrine both of baptismes in the plural , and of imposition of hands too , and that both as it denotes confirmation , act. 15.41 . parallel to christs blessing ( of those which had been baptized before ) with laying his hands on them , and absolution too , parallel to his laying hands on the sick , luke 4. when he healed them , which is called loosing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from a band , luk. 13.16 . and all this will be proper : for both the baptisme of john , and of christ , required of them that came to it , repentance and faith ; and confirmation being but a kind of sealing , and repetition of the covenant , and the promises made in baptisme , ( without water , onely by laying on of hands ) was so too ; and absolution , though it peculiarly required repentance , yet it included also faith on god , and peculiarly that branch of it , the believing remission of sins upon repentance . besides these , there follow two doctrines more , the resurrection , and eternal judgment , which may be also reduced to these two heads , the resurrection to that of faith in baptisme , of which it was a peculiar part , ( the trina immersio , the three dippings , so antient in the church , referring distinctly to his rising the third day , and so perhaps the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 1 cor. 15. i. e. in s. chrysostomes opinion , being baptized into the faith , or belief of that article , intimated , or briefly exprest by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the dead ) and everlasting judgment to that of repentance from dead works , which if not repented from , i. e. forsaken , would bring that judgement upon men . but this by the way , and a● a conjecture incident , and agreeable to the former . sect. 29 i have thus far proceeded in this matter for the removing of prejudices , & vindicating our position from two sorts of objecters , & might now think it reasonable to proceed to a third view , viz. of erastus's structure , and all that he hath said of this matter ; but this would require so intolerable a length , that if i should apply my self to it , i should both tire the most patient reader , and leave the rest which i have to say on the other points at first proposed , to be overwhelmed or lost under the shade of so vast a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . some prudence therefore there will be need of for the compounding of this businesse , that i may neither too much despise , nor too largely prosecute this objecter : and the most convenient middle betwixt these two extremities , i suppose , will be , 1. to bring you acquainted with the person , 2. to give you an account how he fell out , or on what occasion his quarrell to excommunication began . 3. to view the place , and the weapons , at which we are likely to meet , i. e. to follow him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 · so far , till we see directly what the state of the question is , wherein the point of the difference between us consists ; and then to put off the combat , till the spectators are ready to call for it , and shall professe themselves armed with patience to fit it out . sect. 30 for the first of these , the view of the person , i shall say no more , then that he was a dr. of physick in geneva , who having fallen on an age when novelties were in fashion , ( the bishop turn'd out , and a government brought in , which within few years before was acknowledg'd so new , that calvin was fain to write to the protestants in helvetia , that they would but signifie their approbation of it , and could not obtain that neither , though soon after , it undertook to be the only divine modell in the world since christs time ) thought it not unreasonable to step out of his profession , and offer to the world his novelty too ; and having in his own profession exprest in some particulars , a zeale , which others of his faculty will affirm to have been without knowledge , ( as when he speaks of the preparation of stibium , or crocus metallorum , and the antinomian receits , he resolves that no man can salvâ conscientiâ , with a safe conscience administer them , which yet every physitian knows now by daily experience to be very useful and safe ) it will not be matter of wonder , if he committed the like mistake in the businesse of excommunication ( a medicine more out of the proper rode of his studies ) and conceived that poysonous noxious recipe in the church , ( judging , it seems , at a first view , that they which were most wicked needed rather to be invited to the church , then driven from it ) which the experience of all christian churches , and the advice of christ himselfe , as a physitian of souls , have concluded to be very harmlesse and medicinal . i shall say no more of his person , but that he doth not seem by his book to have considered much of divinity , save only of this one head , and in order to that present controversie . and then though i should not make an objection against an author , that his book and he were of divers professions , and faculties , because he that is not a divine by profession , may yet , if he have no calling , have spent his whole time on divinity , and if he have undertaken another profession , may yet neglect that , that he may spend his time in this nobler faculty , or may have those excellent abilities , that he may attain to as great an height in two faculties , as others of meaner parts may do in one , yet , if it appear by any sure 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that that physitian which writes in divinity , hath studied little more divinity then at that time a few moneths could help him to , and thinks this provision sufficient to furnish him , to write contrary to the whole judgement of the church before him , i may as safely commend a divine , that when he is sick first of a disease , then , through impatience of his physitian , shall by looking over some physick-hooks take confidence to control his physitian , and that he may do so the more authoritatively , cast off all the antient masters of that faculty before him , or affirm that in them he finds nothing contrary to his opinion , when they that have read them all , know there is nothing more contrary . this i have said , because this doctor makes his complaint of the opposition , and contempt , and affronts put upon him by those friends , to whom before the setting out he had communicated his book , objecting , saith he , nothing against him , but that he was besides his calling , which therefore with him , i confesse , to be an unsufficient argument against his book , if it have no other to joyn with it ; and i rather conceive , that it was a civility in his friends which used it , then an entire and sole objection , designed by them as a means to take him off from a confidence that he had done well ( by telling him , he was no competent judge whether he had or no , and advising him , that being a stanger in that faculty , he should not depend too much upon his own judgement ) rather then an acknowledgement , that they had nothing else to object to him . and if civilities be apt to be thus mistaken , the truth is , a little plain dealing were a more friendly office . i shall therefore have no necessity of replying to his answers to those friends : that [ scrutamini scripturas ] and [ probate spiritualia ] [ search the scriptures ] and [ try the things that are spiritual ] were a sufficient comminssion to him for that attempt , especially if 't were true which he addes , m that if he had had a stipend to read divinity , this fact of his would then have nothing in it , in their opinion aliene from his office or duty . where yet , i suppose , the office might be distinguisht from the stipend ; and though the money be not apt to inspire , as a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or grace , yet sure the mun●s , or calling to the office may go for a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to which we may hope for the annexion of gods blessing , more then to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ( the meddling in faculties , or studies that belong not to us , ) we have any promise to authorize us to expect . sect. 31 2. for the occasion of his quarrel against excommunication , i shall give you no other account , then what from himself i have received ( who , i suppose , was able to speak the bottom of the truth , and nothing else ) and while i do so , shall desire the reader to observe , how certain it is , that the fabrick of the church of england , i mean the antient structure , as it stands by law , and the doctrines thereof , would never have provoked him to this enmity , if he had lived here under the best , or perhaps worst daies of our episcopacy ; and then as his hippocrates in his excellent tract 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , will tell us of a mighty influence , that the place , the air , or some such accidentall circumstance may have upon the bodies first , and through them , the minds of men , so will the read●r find , that his having chang'd the air , had been excellent effectuall physick for him , and in all probability , might have made a shift to have changed his opions also . the first thing , which , saith he , cast him on those considerations sect. 32 against excommunication , was the unseasonablenesse of the time for the administring of such purging physick . there was then saith he , a great paucity of protestant professors , and the number of papists extremely overtopt them in those parts ; and of the protestants scarce the thirtieth part understood , and approved the doctrine ; and therefore it must be , in his opinion , a strange improper season for the setting up this course of severe ruggid discipline , which would exclude from the sacrament so many of the few protestants , that it would both unpeople their assemblies , and necessarily cause a dangerous scissure in the multitude . the second thing was his having observ'd the unfitnesse of the sect. 33 persons , that were imploy'd and presided in this matter ( their ministers and lay-elders ) fit , saith he , neither for age , nor experience , nor wit , nor judgement , nor manners , nor authority , to be esteem'd able to sustain so great an office with dignity . the third thing ( and that which advanced him in his conceit sect. 34 that he had faln upon the right sense of the scriptures produced and pleaded for this discipline ) was , the consideration of the state of the commonwealth and church among the jews , god having said , deut. 4. that that people had laws and statutes so just and wise , that the institutions of no nations , the sanctions of no commonwealth , no ordinances , though never so wisely thought on , could compare with them , and therefore that that church must needs be best , and most wisely disposed , which came nearest to the jewish form . a consideration indeed , that it seems , was of great weight with him , not observing that that comparison in deut. was made only betwixt the jewish , and other heathen nations of the world at that time , and only in relation to their present state , and not to the prejudice of christs institutions after , when that nation and religion was destroyed ; and that if that argument were of weight , ( besides that he must be bound to prove his modell out of the mosaicall law ) he must be obliged also to bring back all the sacrifices , passeover , circumcision , ceremonies of the jews into the christian church , and turn both the lords day , the sacraments , and the very religion of christ the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the law of faith , out of it . the fourth thing , saith he , and that which set him on writing was , an accident that he then observed , an english man which at that time had quitted this kingdome on the dislike of ceremonies , and came to geneva , and proposed his thesis there de adiaphoris & vestibus , of things indifferent , and of vestments ; particularly , the surplice , &c. he was , saith he , not permitted to maintain them publickly , ne anglos offenderent , that they might not offend the english ; this man therefore changing his purpose , chose a new thesis , in quavis rectè institutâ ecclesiâ hanc servari procurationem , in quâ ministri c●m suo delecto ad eam rem presbyterio jus teneant quosvis peccantes etiam principes excommunicandi : that in every well o der'd church this government was to be observed , in which the ministers with their elderships chosen to that purpose should have power of excommunicating all offenders , even princes themselves : and this thesis , saith he , he was permitted to maintain . i hope , he did not beleeve , that the english would be better pleased , or lesse offended with it , then with that other about surplices , but only that ' twat a doctrine , wherein that common-wealth of geneva was more concern'd , and so did not so much consider how the english might take it from them , as in the other , where they were lesse interessed , they had leasure to do . that the doctrine of the anglican church , and constant practise of it , is utterly abhorrent from this dangerous sacrilegious excesse , i shall not be so wary or humble , as to think it necessary to demonstrate , but confesse that he which saw that doctrine so confidently , and so early avow'd by the disciplinarians , had a great temptation to write against their excommunication , though no ground of assurance , that all which he should say against that subject , would therefore prove true , because that one doctrine of those which asserted it was so far from being such . mr hooker hath given a very good judgement of his enterprise ; that beza and he divided the truth betwixt them , neither of them saying all truth , nor all falshood , each of them 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , disguising , and allaying , and drowning a little of wholesome doctrine , with a great deal of the contrary . and let me say , to conclude this point , that both in the taking up his opinion , and in maintaining it , erastus hath more to impute to beza's and the genevan's errors , and innovations , and excesses and extravagances ( which upon inquiry into the antient church records , he truly saith , he could not find avowed , or authorized ) then to his own grounds , or arguments against excommunication . the last motive , which , he confesses , perfected the work , and sect. 35 put him upon the presse , was the contempts and affronts of his friends , i. e. in effect , the opinions and good advises of all men that saw his theses , and could by no means like them : but this hath been occasionally mentioned already , and only gives the reader occasion to admire , and bewail the infelicity of passionate men , who cannot receive any benefit by their friends , are in the unluckiest condition of all men living , ( beyond which no enemy can wish them a greater curse ) sure to be the worse for that , which god meant us for the most inestimable blessing , i mean th● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , their telling us truth , and ( out of desire of doing us good ) admonishing us of our miscarriages ; which he that cannot make any other use of , then to interpret those hugest obligations for affronts , those friendships for rudenesses , and therefore resolves to publish his conceits , because all his friends to whom he communicates them , advise him by all means to suppresse them , may well be allowed to write a volume against all kind of excommunication , being already , it appears , so far from being able to bear such strong physick , that the most private prudent , first , or second admonition of single persons , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the joynt act of a college of friends and physitians do but make him more incurable . i come now to my third undertaking , i. e. to view his theses sect. 36 of excommunication , and follow him step by step , till we have sprang the point of the difficulty between us ; and , i think , that part of the progresse will sufficiently discover the weaknesse of his fabrick ; at least how little appearance of advantage he hath against us , that are not for the geneva-presbytery , how well soever ad homines he may be thought to have disputed . his n first thesis layes the ground of his discourse , and of his sect. 37 mistake . the word [ excommunication ] he will have taken from 1 cor. 10. which is false , and not endeavored to be proved , and upon the back of that errour , another falsity , viz. that communion is there call'd corpus christi , the body of christ ; all that is there said toward that matter , is , that the wine is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the communication ( not communion ) of the bloud of christ , the bestowing his bloud upon us , a means or a pledge of making us partakers of that rich mercy , that bloud that was shed for us . that that is the right rendring of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is undertaken in another discourse upon the sacrament , and needs no further to be repeated here , the notion of the word excommunication being most clear and uncontroverted , that it is the sequestring of an offender from the o communion , i. e. the visible society of christians , without ever thinking to cut him off , but on the contrary desiring to engraffe him the more firmly into the invisible , and then also again into the church , the visible ( but mystical ) body of christ . and therefore , sect. 38 for the distinction of that communion in the p second thesis , into internall and externall , visible and invisible , we say that one onely member of the distinction belongs to the point in hand according to our stating of it . ( and if the adversary of geneva did presse the other , we do not defend him in it ) viz. the externall and visible society of beleevers or christian professors , from which onely we affirm any man to be cut off by the act of excommunication ; and if he that is so cut off from that , be also finally cut off from the other , this is but accidentall , and very extrinsecall to that act , and distant from the design and end of it , being the effect onely of his sin , which , before he was excommunicated for it , is supposed to have concluded him under the wrath of god and of his contumacy , which will not permit this most fatherly punishment of the church to work any good upon him ; to which though it be consequent indeed , that this censure obtaining not the desired effect , shall tend to his greater condemnation , yet will this consequent no more be chargeable on that censure , then on any other the methods of mercy or chastisement , by god used on purpose for his reformation . in q the third thesis it is by us acknowledged true , that internall sect. 39 and externall society go not alwayes together ; and the consequents which erastus builds on that , are true , and acknowledged in an unjust excommunication , but these belong nothing at all to a just , nor consequently infer any thing against the institution , which giving rules that it may , and commands that it should be alwaies exercised justly , may be permitted to suppose it is so ; or if by error or miscarriage it be not , it doth not exclude him from that inward communion , that was not before excluded , ( supposing that he behave himself meekly and christianly under that unjust censure ) and if there be ( as indeed there is ) great difficulty to judge , whether the person thus to be excommunicated , be first excluded from the inward communion or no , yet will not this conclude the censures unlawfull , because if he be not quite out before , this puts him not out ( nor is occasion of doing so , any more then chastisement from god , which may possibly work impatience and blasphemy in the person , but is not of necessity , or in any propriety of causation to do so ) but rather is a means of keeping him in , of setting him upon his guard , of awaking or rescuing him from the danger of falling out of it , ( and then abundans cautela non nocet , he that is awake already will be never the worse for calling ) and withall of exercising some christian virtues in him , which might possibly lye uselesse by him , if they were not thus imploy'd , and call'd out to practise . to the r fourth thesis we say , that no man thinks , or according sect. 40 to our principles , hath any need to think , that any but god can joyn any to that internal communion of christ and the faithful , i. e. beget faith in any ( nor consequently cut off any from it ) unlesse ministerially , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , workers under , and with christ , and so only by power d●rived from him , we pretend to do what in the censures is done toward it . sect. 41 to ſ the fifth thesis , we answer that there is a mistake , for we are made consortes externae & visibilis ecclesiae , partakers of the external and visible church , not onely by those three as they are the acts of the man who is so partaker , but to those three must be added a second notion of the third of these , which seems not here to be taken notice of , ( though also the words are so set , that 't is not excluded ) and that is the act of the church , first according to christ's commission to the apostles , in receiving them into the church by baptisme , and when for lapses and returns into sin they are excommunicate , restoring them by absolution , and at all fit times allowing them the sacrament of the lords supper , in charity supposing them ( as long as they are in the church ) such members as ought not to be denied that priviledge , and if they be not unworthy , effectually sealing to them the benefits of christianity . from whence 't is clear that such the usurpatio sacramentorum may be , ( viz. if he receive the sacrament of the lords supper that is v not baptized , or that is justly excommunicate ) that 't will be perfectly an usurpation , and not sufficient to give him right to be reckon'd inter membra externi fidelium coetus , among the members of a visible church . sect. 42 th. 6. u in the first part there is need of a distinction : for the confession of faith , and approbation of christian doctrine may be 1. either cordial , or hypocritical . 2. either private or publike . if it be cordial , then 1. it makes me partaker of the inward communion with christ and his members , and supposes a man to be in that state , in which he that is , ought not to be excommunicate , and so 't is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it belongs not to this matter . if it be hypocritical ( as it will appear , if he that acknowledges christ , & approves his doctrine with his mouth , denies it with his actions ) then is it fit to bring the censure upon him , which he most hates and fears , to cast him out of the church , which is onely his disguise and vizard , or turn him out of that hypocriticall confession of christ , to display and lay open his hypocrisie , that he may be asham'd , and think good to reform , and to that end , to deny him the publick hearing of the word , which it seems hath wrought so little good upon him , and to assure him that he shall not be accounted a christian , unlesse his actions accord with his profession ; all which you may mark is so far from deterring him from the cordiall profession , that 't is the most probable means to invite him to it . so again for private confession and approbation , ( which belongs more to the internall communion again , then to the externall ) we drive no man from that by excommunicatio● ▪ but onely from publick performance of it in the congregation ( under which , and which only , the publick hearing of the word read or preach'd is contained . ) and by so doing we separate him from that visible church on that charitable one purpose , that he may see how he hath abused that benefit , and timely learn to make better use of it , though again we do not invite him to that bare empty oral publick or private confession , or that oral approbation , which his hands , i. e. his actions confute , or that unprofitable hearing , which will onely heap judgement on him ; yet on the other side are f●r from deterring him from the real publick confession , &c. but by thus dealing with him we shew him the necessity of it , and so by beating him out of his false holds , which will do him no good , drive ( which is more then inviting ) him to the true refuge or sanctuary , the reall confession , the effectuall approbation , & profitable hearing . to which head i must add , that i much wonder why all this while in the number of the constitutives of external communion , publick prayer is not mentioned ( not so much as reductively , as here hearing of the word is : ) this ought to have been added , and then i shall add of it , that though that be a duty that men would be invited to , as vehemently as to any , yet 't is lawfull to exclude any from this benefit in publick , when that exclusion may be a means most probable to awake a lethargick sinner . by this it appears how groundlesse the last part of the sixt sect. 43 th. is , that excommunication is only excluding from the sacrament ; for 't is also from prayer , and hearing , ( viz. in publike ) as well as from the sacrament : when that is thought expedient to reform any . thus tertul. mentions exclusion à communicatione orationis , & conventus , & omnis sancti commercii , apol. c. 39. from partaking of prayer and all sacred commerce : and generally the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 antiently was from all : ( though the manner of receiving in penitents being first by admitting them to hearing , and then to partaking in the prayers , which were before those that are joyn'd with the communion ; and after , to those prayers also , and in time to the communion it self ) it was after thought fit that some of the censures should not be totall to the excluding from all , but only setting them inter audientes , or catechumenos , which were not yet admitted to the sacrament , of which only the practise which he sets himself against seems to be an imitation . what follows therefore in the conclusion of that thesis , that , [ quod aliae poenae non pertinent ad substantiam excommunicationis certum est . 't is certain that other penalties belong not to the substance of excommunication ] is very false , and proceeds from an ignorance , or willingnesse to deceive , as if the word excommunication denoted only the keeping from the sacrament of the lords supper ( to which end , it now seems , it was , that the first thesis was designed , and against whatsoever it is argumentative 't will not be against us ) whereas it denotes the excision from all , or any degree of communion in sacris , and is a generical word , of which there be different species according to the several kinds of holy things ( the word , the prayers , the sacraments ) from which one may be excommunicate ; and that of exclusion from the sacrament is one degree of exclusion , and the exclusion from either or both of the other also is an addition to that , never inflicted upon any but those to whom the sacrament was denied . so far from truth is that which is added , that those other punishments possunt non excommunicatis infligi , may be inflicted upon those that are not excommunicate in his sense of excommunicatus , for one excluded from the sacrament : for no man was denyed prayers and hearing , that was admitted to the sacrament , ( nor is it rationall that one should , for sure he that is thought worthy of the highest dignity and benefit in a church , must be wronged i● he be denied and thought uncapable of the lowest ) though the other part upon this reason be confest to be true , that these punishments of exclusion from prayers & hearing , may sometimes excommunicatis non infligi , be not inflicted upon them that are excommunicate ; as he that is thought unworthy the priests office , may yet be allowed to be one of the nethinim or door-keepers , as in the antient church , he that was suspended from the sacerdotal function was yet suffer'd to communicate , ut laicus , as a laick . by which the answer is clear to the x next thesis as far as sect. 44 concerns the interdictio templorum , exclusion out of the church ( and for the other two , that of the private commerce , & actus cujusvis liciti , of doing any lawful act , we interpose not ) i. e. from all the parts of the publick service , which that it was brought into the church by the pontificians , or that it is contra apertam scripturam , against manifest scripture , is certainly so very far from truth , that no man that hath read any part of antiquity , can doubt of this practise and usage , before the tyranny of popery is affirm'd by any to have come into the world ; and for the second , what that aperta scriptura is , i shall not divine , but resolve that if it be that which is named in the end of the thesis , 1 cor. 14. there is nothing at all conc●uding from thence . the verse that seems to be referred to ( for we are left to divine ) is v. 23. or 24. where the speaking in the church , praying or prophecying , &c. in an unknown tongue , is by st paul proved to be improper , and not to tend to edification , because prophesying , i. e. explaining of scripture , praying , singing of psalmes , &c. being designed for the use of the beleevers , and no others , are in any reason to be in a known tongue , that they may understand . and joyn in them , v. 16. the unknown tongues being designed , either only as a sign , v. 22. i. e. a miracle to convert unbeleevers to the faith , when they s●e illiterate men all jews speak all kinds of languages , or as a means of preaching to men of every country in their own language , from whence , saith the apostle , 't is consequent that if unknown tongues were used in a congregation of beleevers , unlearned men that understand not those tongues , or unbelievers that have no reverence to the congregation , & do not at all discern any miracle in their speaking with divers tongues , but look only upon the ridiculousnesse of the action , as of a gabbling of that which no man understands , wil resolve that this is a direct madnesse thus to do . whereas on the other side that of prophesying , interpreting of the doctrine of christ intelligibly , and the other parts of the church-service in a known language , will be apt to convince , or instruct those unbeleevers or ignorants ; this , and no more but this , is the direct rationall importance of those verses ; wherein though there be mention of unbeleevers coming in , yet that being only by way of supposition [ if they come in , &c. ] i might justly say , that that is no plain affirmation of scripture , that heathens , & alii quilibet , any others that will , are not prohibited the hearing of gods word , &c. for , 1. 't is an old rule , that suppositio non ponit , the supposing ( if they do ) doth not suppose they do , much lesse that lawfully they may : and 2. that text names only ethnicks and ignorants , and belongs not at all to the alii quivis , any other that will , as that contains the impenitent christians , which are the only persons , to which our excommunication belongs ; and of them the apostle is far from affirming or supposing , that they might not be so excluded , and if they should by way of reduction be forced into that verse , the apostles reasons would be spoiled , for they being supposeable to understand that unknown tongue ( as they may do for all their impenitence ) at least to know what belongs to the gift of tongues , and to what use they were designed , would not think them mad presently that used it ; which being said , i may further add , that those heathens coming into the church , or the not prohibiting them to enter , is a very distinct thing from the admission of the impenitent christians , when they are by church censures prohibited , because the apostle himself which prohibits communion with the brother ( that is , the christian ) which is a fornicator , doth yet not prohibit it with an heathen or fornicator of this world ; and the end of excommunication being only on design of charity , to make the christian offender by that means ashamed , and reformable , would be utterly cast away upon an heathen , who would rather be made obdurate by that means ; and indeed 't were ridiculous to turn out them who are not so forward to come in , and are not by st paul here supposed so , unlesse tanquam exploratores , to see how christians behave themselves there , and if they can finde any such madnesse amongst them , as he there mentions , would be likely to charge it home upon them ; though on the other side if they finde such a regular frame , and beauty of all things there , they may possibly be convinced , and wrought on by that admirable order , & doctrine , as st austin was by st ambroses sermon , though he came thither on a quite d●stant arrant . and so sure all this while this is a feeble text to be relyed on , as the only argument to conclude apostolicall practise to be contrary to the excluding of any à verbi divini auditione , &c. from prayer , or from hearing the word in publick , the place being quite extrinsecal to this matter , and saying nothing at all to it . that which hath been said , sufficiently arms us against the sect. 45 concludency of that which y th. 8. is inferr'd from the premises , and therefore there is no need of saying more to it ; save onely this , that in this thesis there are some little mistakes committed , which i shall only name , 1. ( that which is to the matter in hand , and on which his conclusion stands , or falls , and had been mentioned and is by us answered before in the 1. th. ) that ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) 1 cor. 10. signifies communion , whereas , i say , it signifies indeed ( from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 communico ) communicatio , and so belongs there ( quite to another matter then that , to which it is here applyed ) only to the affirming the wine , &c. in the sacrament to be the communication , or the making us partakers of the bloud of christ , not to our communion one with another in sacris , which is the thing from which excommunication cuts us off , as is noted by that definition of it , which thes . 1. is by the author produced , that 't is exclusio à societate & communione fidelium , an exclusion from the society of beleevers . a second mistake ( besides that which is consequent to the former , a new definition of it by only sacramentorum interdictio , interdiction of , or exclusion from the sacraments , which should more unlimitedly have been sacrorum , from holy things ) that sacramentorum is put in the plurall number , which must needs be either not like a divine , or not like a protestant ; for if it note baptisme as well as the lords supper , then 't is not like a divine , for no divine would say that excommunication is an interdiction of baptisme ; for till they are once baptized , they are out of the church , are not capable of excommunication ; and when they are once baptized , though they were not excommunicate , they should be baptized no more . but if by that plurall , he mean any other sacraments besides these two , that is not like a protestant , for such acknowledge no more . having mention'd these two mistakes , i shall not add a third , that in this interdiction , the persons to whom this cognizance belongs , are not rightly named , because though it be true , that they are not , yet the men against whom he wrote were of that opinion ; and i am a little perswaded , that if it had been an episcopall audience , that should have had this cognizance , he had never written this book , nor been put upon those arts to evacuate the church-censures . one thing only i may have leasure to commend in that thesis , that he defines excommunication by publica & solennis interdictio , a publick solemne interdiction , & praeeunte cognitione ( i suppose he means legitimâ ) with a legall cognizance preceding it , and shall add , that they quite deform the primitive institution , who deny the sacrament to whole congregations at once without any charge laid to all or any part of them , ( save only that they are a mixt congregation , wherein there are some evil men , which yet is not legally proved neither ) and they also who deny it to particular men sufficiently catechised , without any publick cognizance of their crime , or processe of admonition first , and second , or that design that exclusion to any other end , then ut peccantes resipiscant , the reducing sinners to repentance : and therefore no small petty trifle is a sufficient matter for this , but contumacious continuing in some scandalous sin after admonitions , from which when they return again by a sincere a●proved repentance , they are to be absolved . sect. 46 z th. 9. is the proposing of the question in the termes , wherein it is to be handled , wherein i shal only interpose for perspicuity sake , that the phrase [ an removendus sit ? ] may have a little ambiguity in it , for perhaps it may ( though lesse properly ) be set to signifie this , whether it be lawfull to remove such an one ? ( for if it be but so , then he that pretends to write against excommunication , and to pretend it unlawfull , will be sufficiently concluded ) and then i answer , that for any but for the governor of the church , to whom the cognizance of his ill life belongs , and who hath had a legal cognizance of it , and proceeded legally by the severall degrees of ecclesiastical processe against him , it is not lawfull : but for the bishop , or praefect , or lawfull governour succeeding to that power which christ gave his apostles with the keyes of the kingdome of heaven , it is lawfull , and by the commission of [ ego dabo ] and afterwards [ ego mitto ] they are sufficiently authorized to do this : and upon this issue , if this be it , we will joyn most willingly . but then secondly , the ( an sit removendus ) may perhaps ( and to that the words more incline ) denote a necessity of doing it , and then the question will be , whether he must be removed ? to which i then answer , that there lies not any such necessity on this , as arises from any pollution that will accrue to others that communicate with him , if he be not prohibited , any further then the example of his sin , and the impunity may extend , and this the fathers maintained against the nova●ians . nor thirdly , any necessity lying on the minister that administers , for he having admonished ( according to our church orders in our liturgy ) every such sinner to go home , and repent , and not to approach to that table , is in charity to believe ( being not able to search the heart ) that he , that after that so comes , is a true penitent . only if in prudence he think it unlikely , and therefore out of care to a poor mans soul , and for the preventing of the sin of unworthy receiving , he think fit to admonish him more privately , or particularly to that end , or to do any thing else , which in prudence may contribute to it , this is but his duty to an erring brother , and when that is done , any farther emergent guilt lies upon the receiver , and he is not ( in case of the mans unworthy receiving ) partaker of that sin . all the necessity then that is in this matter , lies first upon the sect. 47 receiver himself , that he be wary , that he come not till he be prepared ( and that belongs not to our present consideraton ) and upon the bishops , or governours of the church , that when charity to souls requires it of them , they fail not thus to proceed , that when mercy and friendly admonitions prevail not , they then take in severity , the apostles rod in the season for a rod , in stead of his spirit of mercy , and meeknesse , and to that end be watchfull over the flock , that they fall not into such dangers , and infections , by their neglect or mercifulnesse . sect. 48 as for the qualifying of the persons , of whom this question is ask'd , i shall not differ with the proposer , but resolve , as anon we shall shew , that he that is thus , may ( and ought in the sense that i mention ) be thus dealt with , and we shall joyn issue with him for the precept and examples of scripture commanding and teaching us to do so . sect. 49 and having now , as i conceive , so easie a task before me , and such an army of seconds on my side ( the consent and practise of the whole christian world for 1500 years ) against one single combetant , walking in a melancholy posture by himself ( till after so many years , the concurrence of some accidentall conceived conveniences have at last helpt him to some company ) and him again not very much used to the weapon ( i mean divinity ) which he hath undertaken to trust to , and beside having an advantage against him , which he did not foresee , we of this church being not the men against whom his reasons were framed , and so not so like to be prest by them , ( the arguments designed against beza and his presbyterians being utterly unconcludent against us ) i must confesse my self to be under a temptation to make use of the present advantage , and to prosecute this triall to the uttermost ; but i must in justice consider , what a chasme and rent it would make in this discourse , what an unweildy bulk it would swell it to , and therefore must recover so much constancy of minde , as not to be thus passionately hurried out of my resolution , but leave it , till i have a louder call to it , being ready to give any man an account of what i now say in this matter . sect. 50 it will be a more moderate excursion , and more reconcileable with my designed brevity , to mention one opinion or pretension more in this matter , that of another gentleman , who though he strive not to take excommunication out of the church any more then baptisme , but moreover acknowledges also , that it belongs to the future pastors as well as to the then present apostles ; yet having first resolved , that ecclesia & civitas christianorum are all one , he then concludes that the cognizance , and judgment of any fault , whether it be such or no , belongs to the church in that notion of his , i. e. to the city or common-wealth , ( which with him also signifies the civil magistrate , or , as he saith , judicem summum , the supreme judge ; ) and that the power of binding and loosing ( as that also of baptizing , which saith he , is all one with it ) is no farther in the pastor , then that he eject those out of the church , whom the church in his notion hath condemned ; and receive into it , whom the church judges worthy of absolution . i shall not labour to multiply differences , but at this time make my exceptions onely to one part of this scheme , viz. that the church in his notion , i. e. the judex summus , the civil magistrate , hath the power of judging who are to be excommunicated , who absolved . the proofs that i can collect from him of that assertion , are only two ; first , that mat. 18. christ bids , in case the trespasser hear not the two or three , ( i. e. saith he , either deny the fact , or confessing it deny it to be a trespasse ) then dic ecclesiae , that it should be told the church ; [ quare autem ecclesiae , nisi ut ipsa judicet an peccatum sit , necne ? why should the church be told it , but that that may judge whether that be a sin or no ? ] and if he obeyed not , then let him be to thee a publican , &c. non dicit , dic apostolis , it is not , saith he , tell the apostles , to note that the sentence or judgement , whether it be a sinne or no , belongs not to them , but to the church ; and consequently that this power was no more , then to bind those whom the church had before judged impenitent . his second argument is from the practise and words of st paul , who asks the corinthians [ do you not judge them that are within ? ] yet himself pronounces the fornicator excommunicate . to the former of these , i shall answer only this one thing , that there are other reasons very prompt , & pertinent , why the matter should be told the church , though the church be taken in a notion wherein it is not supposed to judge of it : as either , 1. the [ densare inculcationibus ] in tertullians phrase , the fortifying the former successlesse reprehensions with this addition of authority from the number , that as the two or three might be more likely to work upon the offender , then the injur'd person alone , so now the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the many , or the church in the loosest notion of it , for any assembly or meeting of many christians together , ( supposing that it do not signifie the governors of the church , as the antients yet say it doth , and is far more probable , and asserted on stronger grounds , then that it should signifie the civitas or summus judex ) might probably be more effectuall ; or 2. the [ pudefacere coram multis ] formerly cited out of the rabbins , the making the offender ashamed when his fact is thus publisht , and to do that is by us acknowledged the end of the admonitions , and censures ; or 3. if there be need , the using the multitude as a cloud of witnesses to convince him of the fact , or sinfulnesse of it , which the text refers to before , ( that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established ) and in all reason may be a commodious sense here also , this third being but the ascending to an higher , and more probable convincing course , when the former had miscarried . either of these three , much more altogether , will be a sufficient ground of telling it to the church , and so from thence there is no necessity to conclude that the judgement is the act of the church , or civil magistrate in that place . and indeed it will be hard to suppose that possible at that time , when 't is clear the civil magistrate was not christian , and therefore unfit not only for the title of the church , but much more to be appealed to as the judge by christians , who , 't is certain , are bound by christ to use all other means possible ( and telling it to the church in our notion is one of those possibles ) to get satisfaction for trespasses , before they proceed to any heathen tribunal , to implead their fellow-christian there . nor will it , i conceive , be reasonable to reply , that christs speech belongs to aftertimes , when the magistrate should be christian ; for then , 1. he must acknowledge that till then , it was to be in the church in our notion , and consequently that the ecclesiastical governors were the judge at that time , and then by his own doctrine ( that data est potestas ligandi , &c. futuris pastoribus eodem modo quo praesentibus apostolis ) it will still belong to the ecclesiastical superior . and 2. though it may very justly be extended to that future state , ( as what was said to the apostles was not personal , but belonged to their successors also ) yet there will be no probable argument that the apostles then present should be themselves excluded . for , besides that this must lie on him to prove , if he wil assert it against all antiquity , it will also be a little unreasonable to affirm ; for that were for our saviour to give all the power , and direct all the speech to the successors , not to the apostles , as a prophesie only , or a prediction , no evangelical instating on these to whom he spake . this i suppose a sufficient answer to this proof , without proceeding to any deeper search or examination of that which in the argument is taken for granted , viz. that the church signifies the summus judex , which yet is as far from being formerly convincingly inferred , as it is from the sound of the words , or the notion , wherein all the antient church have uniformly taken it , ( which will , i hope , be considerable in this matter ) for that christ did not take upon him to be a judge , or introduce any change in civil government , as it is by us acknowledged most true , so will it not belong to this of binding , &c. which is but a spiritual , not civil punishment , only a denying them that , which christ brought into the world , and gave those messengers of his the sole power of disposing it , and indow'd them with power from on high , particularly for the exercise of it . as for the second argument , 't is certainly a mistake , if it be thought to conclude that the apostle did but pronounce the judgement of the church in that matter of the incestuous , or that the judgement of the civil state was preparative to his . for sure the apostle had , ( before the using of those words of [ do not you judge them that are within ? ] in the end of that chapt. ) past his sentence definitive on that incestuous in the beginning of it , ver . 3. for i have already ( not ego autem , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as absent in body , but present in spirit , judg'd him that hath thus done this thing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i have judg'd this evil doer : judg'd , i say , and what is the sentence ? why , in the name of our lord jesus christ , you and my spirit being met together ( the apostle and his presbytery , or he in the face of the church ) with the power of our lord jesus christ , to deliver such an one to satan , &c. and this at a time when 't is clear , the church had not pass'd sentence on him , for v. 2. they were puft up , as he complains , and through an opinion of their own deeper wisdome ( a leaven , v. 6. i. e. a doctrine either of the heathen philosophers , or of the gnosticks among them ) took it for an indifferent thing , and did not mourn for him that had done it , the ceremony used by the church , when any was to be excommunicate , and notes that they should have so joyn'd together in mourning , in complaining to the apostle , and prayer to christ , that this censure might passe on such an one , but that they did not do it , nay , it seems proceeded not so far as to fraternal correption which was infallibly their duty toward him . as for the words cited , [ nonne vos judicatis ? ] they come in no another incidental occasion ( not directly to this first matter ) to make the distinction betwixt the dealing with the christian and heathen fornicators ; the apostle restraining his prescription of not conversing with fornicators , v. 9. to the christian fornicator , whom , saith he being within the church , 't is reasonable to conclude within the churches censures , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ do you not judge them that are within ? not you emphatically or in opposition to the apostle , but you 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as a general title of christians , who use not to judge any but christians , all other being left to gods judgement , the church having nothing to do with them . it is clear enough , that the context looketh wholly that w●y , and consequently there will be little reason to extend these words any farther then this , that the church judgeth , christian not heathens ; and the church in the notion only wherein 't is opposed to god , not in which 't is opposed to st paul , but in which in any reason it includes the apostle or governor of it ; for sure he may judge them that are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , within the church , ( for so he doth , v. 3. and no part of the context of that ch. seems to say any thing to the contrary ) though them that are without he cannot ; which is the only thing the apostle had in hand to say at that time . having briefly answered the reasons , i shall by way of compounding the controversie with this gentleman , most willingly acknowledge , that somewhat the church in his notion , or more clearly the supreme magistrate , being supposed christian , may have to do in this businesse of censures , praecedaneous to the judgement of the apostle , or before the pastor or ecclesiastical governor proceed to them , as 1. in the choosing or nominating him to that office ; 2. in the setting of rules , or laws by which he ought to proceed in hearing or judging : no question , this may and in christian common-wealths very reasonably ought to belong to the civil magistrate ; and truly this discouse doth not pretend to , or desire any unlimited , or arbitrary power in the bishop , but only that , the rules being prudently set by those to whom the power of making laws belongs in every common-wealth , he should have the cognizance in such causes , as regularly belong to his audience , and according to that rule , & not otherwise , give sentence on the offender ▪ and that only thus far , that he shall be turn'd out of christian society , or received into it again : ( which , beside that this is , and hath alwayes been taken for an institution of christs , which 't is reasonable we should obey , and not dispute , is also in it self simply considered , far from any degree of unreasonable , no man in ordinary reason being more fit to judge who is fit to enjoy the privileges of the church , who likely to be reformed by being deprived of them , then he that hath studied that great skill of winning souls , and is intrusted by christ with the charge of them . ) again 3. it will be granted that the church in the ordinary notion , as it signifies the whole diffusive christian society in any place , may so far be interessed in this matter , as that these only shall be liable to these censures , who have offended others by their notorious sins , and are by the proxyes , as it were of those others , i mean , by their chosen officers , or by the publick fame , the voyce again and interpreter of their sense , delated , or complain'd of to the governours of the church , as those that have wrong'd the church , and defamed that christian profession , to which they had given up their names ; and this is a kind of judging ( in large or loose speaking , as to be infamous offenders signifies to be conceiv'd and judg'd such by the community among whom they live , for otherwise they are not infamous ) but yet in strict propriety , is only a preparative to the sentence of the judge , and an accusing or impleading rather , and is not , i suppose , the thing for which this author doth pretend , or if it were , would not to us be matter of contention with him . the truth is , the power of binding , &c. which we contend for , as the office more then privilege of bishops , ( in the careful exercise of which they minister most charitably to the good of the souls intrusted to them ) is another manner of thing , then what this gentleman seems to have conceived it ( both here , and especially when of it he concludes , vnusquisque si mentis compos sit obediat in omnibus simpliciter ei , cujus arbitrio credit se salvandum aut damnandum esse . ) god knows they pretend to no such arbitrium in the saving or damning of any man ; it is only an engine of christs invention to make a battery and an impression on the obdurate sinner to win him to himself to a blesse , not to triumph over him , ( which very thing he hath in one place excellently exprest , b the end of this discipline , saith he , is by depriving men for a time of the favour and spiritual privileges of the church , to humble them to salvation , ) much lesse to invade any part of civil judicature , or loosen the bands thereof by these spiritual pretences , but to leave the government of the world just in the posture that it was before christs coming , or as it would be supposed to be , if he had never left any keyes in his church . and therefore , when in an annotation affixt to his last edition he was pleased to extend his observation of the c doctrines that might disturb government , not only to that power which many attribute to the pope of rome in other mens dominions , and to the liberty usurpt by the cives infimi , under pretence of religion , but also to that which alicubi extra ecclesiam romanam episcopi in civitate suâ sibi postulant , i must hope that it was a mistake , or which i rather think ( being perswaded of the uprightness of his affections to our establisht government ) that his [ alicubi ] did not in any wise refer ( as i was apt to fear it did ) to the constitution of episcopacy in this native kingdome of his and mine . for that this , since it departed from the roman church , hath been perfectly free from any degree of that guilt , is that of which we are so far perswaded , that we neither fear , nor deprecate any historians instance , nor can imagine what one particle of the doctrine , or constitution of our church there is , on which a rational man can by any consequence build such a d charge ; of which nothing can make vs capable , but leaving the [ non ] out of it ; and that makes me a little confident , that either [ episcopi ] in that place signifies not in the known vulgar christian sense , or that the [ alicubi ] lookt not on this kingdome or church of ours ( as it hath long stood establisht by law ) which most cheerfully acknowledges the truth of his many other observations , ( particularly that of moses's , not aarons chair , of abi●thar the high-priest being no way exempt from the command of solomon , of his three axioms also concerning excommunication , that neither the common-wealth , nor the supreme magistrate , nor all the persons in any common-wealth can be excommunicate ) and resolves that no man shall ever deprive her of this glorying , that she is pure from the bloud of all men , hath entertain'd no one principle , or doctrine in any degree incompetible with the civil power , or peace in the utmost extent , in which the most loyal author ha●h design'd to establish it . and if it must be arminianism ( as one hath lately confuted it under that title ) to teach e that the ecclesiastical power is subjected to the civil magistrate , who in all causes over all persons is acknowledged by us supreme under christ , we must be content to lye down under that envie , and not excuse or renounce that piece of loyal arminianism . i have thus far proceeded in this matter for the removing of sect. 51 prejudices , and vindicating our proposition from three sorts of objecters : 't is now time to advance a little toward the positive assertive part , and to that end ( the knowledge of loosing depending wholly from the consideration of binding ) i shall in the first place examine what images of binding we have in the scripture , and those we shall refer to two heads : first , those that belong to the power , and practise apostolical , ( in the time and persons of the apostles ; ) secondly , those that after the apostles persons , ( and ever since ) were to continue in the church , which we shall call ecclesiastical discipline ( as distant from apostolical ) exercised ( the one , as the other ) upon offenders either publick and scandalous , or whose crimes otherwise came unto their cognizance , and consisting either in separating and removing to some distance , or in casting them totally out of the church , or congregation of visible professors here on earth ; answerable unto which , [ loosing ] must consequently be a delivering from those censures , the absolving of him , who was formerly separated , or excommunicated , restoring him to the visible church ; or any part thereof ( to the privileges of a christian , and the comforts of the word , and services , and sacraments ) who was before legally cast ou● of it , and deprived of them . for the understanding of which , and specially of the former , the apostolical power and practise ( or as it was discernable among the apostles ) it will not be amisse to do these three things : 1. to give you a view of the several sorts of excommunication among the jews , to which some phrases in the new testament refer : ( because i see there is some controversie raised concerning them . ) 2. to mention some of those places in the new testament , which seem to refer to these ; and then 3. to observe the phrases in the new testament , which are more purely christian , i. e. which more distinctly and peculiarly respect the use of these censures among christians . sect. 52 for the first , i am sure , 't will be no news to say that there were three degrees of excommunication among the jews ; the first called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 remotion or separation ; the second , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 execration , a more solemn excommunication ( with curses out of moses law and execrations added to it , a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of which we have act. 8.20 . ) inflicted on him who after the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 first for 30 dayes , and then being allowed 30 dayes more ( which is doubling of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) still continued in that contumacy , for then , say the jews 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , they anathematize him without defining any limited ●ime , as before in niddui they did . the third is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a kind of proscription and delivering to desolation and destruction ; or to the coming of the lord in judgement against him , noted by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( added to the anathema ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the oriental tongues signifying dominus ; whence in etruria the kings are called murani , saith servius in aen. 12. and the syrians now maranitae , because they call christ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 our lord agreeable to which it is , that in epiphanius , god is by the gazari call'd marnas , and by the cretians their virgins 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i. e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ladies , as among the spaniards the form hath been used , sit anathema marano , & excommunicatus , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 let him be excommunicate from the hope of the lord : ( and though he that loves not the lord jesus christ be not 1 cor. 16.22 . appointed to be excommunicated by that phrase , yet doth it referre to the use of the phrase among the jews , though there it be by way of accommodation set to signifie another matter , that higher more direful sentence of ( go you cursed , &c. ) of these three species thus set down 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i should not add much more , but that again i see two things resolved on by a fore-mentioned learned author , contrary to what hath been generally received in this matter , and the latter of them apt , if believed , to divest the church of all kinde of discipline , even of such as was instituted on no other design but to bring sinners to heaven , and which we desire should be used onely to that end . they are these , 1. that there are but two species of excommunication among the jews , niddui and cherem , and that schammatha is all one with niddui . 2. that these punishments among the jews belonged not to exclusion from sacred , but only from civil society . for the first of these , that which i find produced to disprove sect. 53 those three species , is , 1. the promiscuous use of niddui and schammatha among the talmudical writings . secondly , the derivation of schammatha from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which among them signifies no more then to separate and to abdicate : and thirdly , that elias levita , and david de pomis , which are for these three species , were not lawyers , but grammarians , and so did oscitanter negligently and drowsily make three species of excommunication , when they should have made but two . to all which i answer , that those learned men which maintain the three species may very well do it for ought these objections enforce to the contrary . for it will not be necessary for us to affirm that the talmudists should use these several words constantly according to their distinct , proper , peculiar , critical importance ; there is nothing more ordinary then for words that are used in foro to lose their native proper significations , and to be used 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , for somewhat else of affinity , and near signification with them ; and therefore it will be worth observing , that as schammatha in the talmud is sometimes taken only for separation ( which is the reason that they which are against the three species make schammatha to be all one with niddui , and to set down niddui and cherem for the two : ) so in other places niddui is set to denote schammatha as a higher degree then cherem , as will appear ( to any that cannot otherwise passe judgement on it ) by the places which buxtorf hath produced in his rabbinical lexicon , which shew clearly that schammatha is a heavier degree of excommunication , and yet that niddui is by them put for schammatha , which indeed will be a proof that niddui and schammatha are used promiscuously , & sine discrimine among those writers , but not at all , that there are but two degrees or species , niddui and cherem , but clearly the contrary , that cherem is a middle species , beyond which there is schamatha , ( which they sometimes improperly cal niddui ) as wel as below it niddui , which they sometimes call schammatha ; and therefore jo. coch which is cited to prove that niddui & schammatha are all one , saith withall , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , non tantum de leviori , sed & de graviori indifferenter usurpantur , ex● . gem. san. p. 146. both used for the greater , as well as both for the lighter excommunication . to which i shall add , that the hebr. writers are so far from speaking constantly , and exactly , & critically in this matter , that they sometimes put cherem , or anathema lowest , and ad schammatha to that , and then set niddui as the last of the three , as in jelammedenu sect . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 speaking of the samaritans ▪ the species of excommunication are thus enumerated , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and they anathematized , and schammatized and excommunicated him , by which it will appear , how promiscuously those words have been used among hebr. writers , ( to which purpose may be again remembred , what was even now produced of the phrase in spain , sit anathema marano , & excommunicatus , excommunicatus after the highest anathema ) but it will not be a proof of any validity , against the three species of excommunication , or the order or difference of them , when they do speak exactly . sect. 54 for the second proof taken from the derivation of schammatha from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which , saith he , signifies no more then to separate or abdicate , i desire this may be noted , that there is no such ancient hebrew word as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but only of later use among the rabbins , and talmudists , which to me is an argument convincing that that verb may come from schammatha , and not schammatha from the verb ; and therefore buxtorf , when he meets with it , renders it schammatizare , as a verbal from that noun , not willing to affix any other interpretation to it , but this , that so he might leave it to signifie in the same latitude ( as a verb ) that belongs to schammatha , as a substan●ive , i. e somtimes to be taken properly and strictly to denote the third species , sometimes improperly , to be all one with niddui , or the first species . sect. 55 for the confirming of what i now say , i shal premise what suppose will be easily granted me , that every compound or derivative hebrew word , is to be reduced to some original hebrew root or roots , from which it is derived , or of which compounded consequently that the same must be resolved of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which that it is not a derivative from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i conceive is sufficiently evinc'd , because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is no primitive hebrew word to be found in the bible , or other authentick hebrew writing ( which he that will not trust his own observation , but survey schindler and buxtorf , will acknowledge with me ) but only among the rabbins and talmudists , and may rather be thought to come from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 then schammatha from that ; this is not my conjecture , but the direct words of the learned buxtorf , in his institution of hebrew epistles p. 58. in these words , talmudiei ex nomine 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 verbum faciunt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 pros●ribere , proscriptionis poenam in aliquem fer●e the talmudists from the noun schammatha make the verb schammeth , to proscribe , &c. and though buxtorf in his rabbinical lexicon place the verb before the noun , yet is that no argument of disagreement between these two writings , but is only caused by a care of observing his wonted litteral method of setting the verb of the three letters before the noun of one letter more . if it be demanded of me from whence then the noun comes , sect. 56 ( seeing i make the verb come from that ) i answer that learned jews have given it several originations , some bringing it from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 dominus venit , the lord comes , making it all one with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 1 cor. 16.22 . ( but the dagesh in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 makes me that i cannot consent to that etymology ) others from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ibi mors , there is death ; others from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 desolatio erit , there shall be desolation . of these two latter i know not which to choose , 1. having little objection aginst either of them , and 2. finding them both avowed in the gemara moed katon , in these words , what is schammatha ? rab answered 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there is death , and samuel said , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there shall be desolation , &c. and 3. finding the sense of both those originations to come to the same purpose of death , or desolation , or destruction , noting that kinde of offender to be by that censure given up to divine vengeance , which is generally the notion of that 3 degree of excommunication , which makes it to be taken for the same with ma●anatha in the apostle , that god comes as a judge or avenger to such an one . for let me add to this matter this one thing , that this third degree of censure among the jews at christs time , was proper to him , that under moses law had deserved death , but by reason that the power of capital punishments was taken from the jews , could not by them be so punished , and therefore was by this way thus delivered up to gods hands , to inflict vengeance upon him , which they say did very frequently befall them in a remarkable manner ; and s. austins observation is to this purpose , quaest . super deu. l. 5. c. 38. hoc nunc agit in ecclesiâ excommunicatio , quod agebat tunc interfectio . excommunication doth the same among christians , that killing did among the jews . as for the third proof of the objection , taken from the lessening of the authority of elias levita , and david de pomis , it will be sufficient to say , 1. that to make that argumentative , it ought to have been ( but is not ) proved , that others which have call'd the three species in question , are of greater authority then these . 2. that grammarians ( if they be such indeed , as those have been allowed that reputation ) are f criticks also , and so as fit to be hearkned unto in such a matter of ancient custome among the jews , as if they had been lawyers , they would have been ; more , i am sure , then any other lawyers , which had not been so good grammarians ; and yet that any jewish lawyer hath avowed the contrary opinion , is not , that i know of , as yet pretended : and 3. for the negligence or oscitance of these grammarians , that hath not with any proof or confirmation been laid to their charge , and if it were , 't is as possible that jewish lawyers might have been guilty of it as they , nay it were more reasonable to accuse them of oscitancy , that make but two , and them of double diligence that have discerned one species more then they . to this topick ab authoritate i shall add only , that aloysius ( whom the reader is by this gentleman advised to turn to sched . sacro prof . l. 7. c. 10. ) doth affirm in these direct words , sunt apud hebraeos plures excommunicationis gradus , niddui , cherem , schamatha ; there are several degrees of excommmunication among the hebrews , those three by name , though he inlarge not to explain the third , as he doth these two former : and so much for the first particular . now for the second thing , that these species of excommunication sect. 57 among the jews were only to exclude from civil society , and had nothing to do with sacred , i shal venture it to the judgment of intelligent indifferent men , who shall but examine what they meet with on this subject , if it be but at second hand in g buxtorf , &c. out of the hebrew writers . it is his observation of niddui the lowest species , that it is remotio ab aliorum congressu quàm sacro , quàm politico , & domestico , ad 4 passus ; separation not onely from civil commerce , but from sacred also . now that which i conceive hath caused this mistake in this first kind ( & from thence perhaps without any new cause extended it to the rest ) is that such an one that was separated by niddui , was allowed to come to the sacred meetings , to be present at common-prayers , to teach others ▪ and to be taught with others , as the same author affirms ; but then this concludeth not against us , for the same buxtorf still adds , sed semper sub dictâ lege remotionis , alwayes under the forementioned law of remotion , and distance . and so these two 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , it seems are reconcileable thus : niddui is not a totall remotion or separation neither from sacred , nor from civil society , ( being you know but the first degree or species ) but onely ad 4 passus , that none can come within the distance of foure paces of him that is under the censure ; and this degree of separation being extended to sacred as well as civil assemblies , yet excluded him not either from praying with the congregation , or learning , or ( if he were a doctor ) teaching in it ; onely a mark was set upon him , to discriminate him from others , which were under no censure ; this is described in r. eliezer , c. 17. king solomon , saith he , when he built the house of the sanctuary , made two gates , one for bridegrooms , another for mourners and excommunicate persons , by which they went into the temple . and to these two gates and sorts of men the apostle may seem sect. 58 to allude rom. 12.15 . & 1 cor. 7.30 . when he speaks of weeping with them that weep , & rejoycing with them that rejoyce ; and no question the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which we render bewayling , 1 cor. 5.2 . refers to that stile of mourners , and denotes the solemnity usual among the jews of putting on mourning habit , and wailing over them that were excommunicate , according to that of the author of the constitutions under clements name , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , l. 2. let the incurable be put out of the church with sorrow and wailing . these mourners , or excommunicate in that rabbi were those under niddui , who it seems were admitted to the temple , but appointed to come in at a doore peculiar to them , and with some such mark of discrimination , that they that saw them might pray for them in this form , qui inhabitat domum hanc , consoletur te , indátque animo tuo ut obtemperes , &c. he that dwels in this house , comfort thee , and give thee a heart to obey ; by which i am forced to confesse , that niddui did not separate from all society in sacris , but only remove to such a distance ; and yet the reader will be forced to confesse also , that this separation or rather remotion belonged ad sacra , as well as ad politica , and in the same degree that it restrain'd the one kind of society , it restrain'd the other also ; and so saith jo. mich. dilherr . elector . l. 2. c. 10. having premised that niddui est hominis ab aliorum conventu tam sacro , quam politico , & domestico , ad 4 usque cubitus sive passus per dies 30 remotio , &c. a remotion from sacred , civil , domestick commerce , to the distance of foure paces for 30 dayes , a deprivation of the marriage bed , of shaving , and washing , and such other commodities , he adds that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he that is under this censure , may be present at sacred meetings , but so many paces off from the rest of the company . sect. 59 and therefore whereas this author affirmeth that by niddui is not meant an ejection out of the church , but only a deprivation of that liberty of civil society within four paces , & applies to it that sense , wherein the poet cals the britains , toto divisos orbe , divided from the whol world , not that they are totally divided from the rest of the world , but to denote a peculiar situation of those islands in the ocean , i shal acknowledge the observation so far as it denies a totall separation , but not as it intimates a greater separation in civilibus , then in sacris , as the words [ peculiari illâ civilis inter suos consortii libertatis deprivation ? ] would seem to import , and as the intention of the writer is by himself demonstrated to be . the matter is sufficiently clear that niddui is but a lighter censure , remotion or restraint for such a degree , but not a total separation either from sacred , or civil society , yet stil as much from sacred as from civil , in both limitedly 30 dayes , and for the distance of four cubits . sect. 60 but then for cherem the second degree , that is defin'd by h buxtorf , exclusion from the sacred assemblies , casting out of the synagogue with all the curses of deut. 28. ( to which , say i others , was added the ceremony of putting out the candles , to signifie him deprived of the light of heaven ) and he hath proof for it out of maimonides in madda , c. 7. muchram non docet néque discit cum aliis . he that is under the second censure , is excluded from hearing the law in publick ; and , as k buxtorf elswhere adds , ò synagogâ , conventibus , negotiis , publicis , sacris , & politicis omnibus exclusus , donec resipiscat ; which may further appear by the form of this anathema , which he brings out of an antient hebr. manuscript . sit in anathemate sanctorum excelsorum , in anathemate , seraphim , & ophunnim , in anathemate totius ecclesiae , &c. now from this , the third species differs onely in this , that as that was a total separation , donec resipiscat , til he repent , but reversible upon repentance , total for the present , but not irremissible , so this was both total and final too , & so undoubtedly ( not remitting of the severity of the second but adding to it ) extended to the separation in sacris also ; and therefore whatsoever may be said of schammatha in the wide rabbinical acception of it , as it goes indifferently for niddui , there wil be little doubt , but the schammatha peculiarly so called , or that which is call'd 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the schammatha of the lord , or of the god of israel , is , as the learned define it , ea quâ quis totaliter & finaliter ab ecclesiâ ( as that notes coetum sacrum , as well as civilem ) segregatus , divino judicio sit devotus , & cum eâ mors & exitium ; so dilherr . l. 2. of maranatha ( which he supposes to be al one with it ) est proscriptio extrema , & absque spe veniae irrogata , quâ reus omnibus humanae societatis juribus , legibus , & officiis exclusus , judicio divino committitur , & ad extremam desolationem condemnatur . a perfect proscription , without hope of pardon , by which the offender is excluded from all privileges , and offices of humane society , and committed to the judgement of god , and condemned to extream desolation . i shal abstain from adding more to the proof of this truth in the several species , conceiving that i have sufficiently proved or vindicated in the lowest , & shewed the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the cause or the occasion of their mistake , who deny it ; and then there will be little need to confirm it any further in the other two degrees , which do adde to that lowest , but cannot be thought to come short of it . and having thus clear'd the first thing which we proposed , sect. 61 view'd the several sorts of excommunication among the jews , i proceed now to the second , to those places of the new testament which seem to refer to them : in which matter i shall not be confident or dogmatical , but deliver my thoughts as for the present it seems to me , & shew you the grounds of my so seeming . and 1. that place luk. 6.22 . doth appear to belong to excommunication among the jews , but whether to one only or more species of it , i am uncertain ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 surely belongs to the first kind , that of niddui , which cannot be more literally rendred in greek then by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , separation , or remotion , 4 paces off , and perhaps that with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 added to it , signifies to do it contumeliously ; but yet because 't is possible , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may have a greater force in it , and be a notation of cursing and execration , not only in this but in other places of the gospel , therefore i conceive that word ( set immediately after 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) may denote the second degree , that of cherem , & then to the same wil belong that third phrase also of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to cast out your name as evil , for an hebraism there is in these words , which though a very learned man conceive to consist in this ; 1. that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 shall be all one with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( as indeed sometimes it is ) 2. that as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is to bring up an evil report , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 shal signifie the same thing ; yet i shal take leave to interpose , 1. that the phrase used for bringing up an evil report , num. 14.36 . is , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , nor 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and in brief , that i canot find any where 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the translators of the old , or writers of the new testament , for bringing up an evil report . 2. that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to cast out your name as evil ; 1. [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 yours ] then [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as ] added , wil be somewhat another kind of phrase then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as [ to bring up an evil name or report ] is in our language a very intelligible phrase for defaming , but [ to bring up your name or report as evil ] is not so ; and therefore i shall venture to propose my conjecture , that the hebraism is not in the word [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] but in the [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] & [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : ] so that 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 shall signifie no more then your persons , or you ( as mat. 1.23 . [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] is no more then he ( as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , act. 1.15 . signifies persons of men ) shall be ( not he shall be named by that name ) a god with us , or god incarnate ) and then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 shall signifie [ as scandalous ] or offensive , or abominable , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is by the 72. sometimes rendred 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 being ashamed ( whence perhaps our english bashful and abash ) sometimes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to abominate , sometimes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be evil or wicked , gen. 34.24 . esd . 4.12 . and so [ to cast out your names as evil ] will clearly signifie to cast you out as wicked , shameful , abominable persons , a denotation of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which was not onely separating or removing to a distance , but total casting out , and that with reproaches , curses , and execrations , such as in moses are denounced against greater malefactors ; whether these circumstances of this text do thus denote , i am not confident , and therefore have onely proposed a conjecture , but that the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 do referre to the niddui and cherem i doubt not , nor if you marke it , doth h. grotius who hath enlarged on that subject of excommunication , in his annotations on that verse . no more do i find my self moved by the arguments of that sect. 62 learned gentleman to doubt , but that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be turned out of the synagogue , joh. 9.22.12.42.16.2 . refers to the second of these species among the jewes , for that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 do sometime signifie a civil congregation or assembly , and not alwayes a sacred ( as when the hypocrite is said to pray standing , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in places of publike concourse and corners of the streets , as the most visible places , matth. 6. ) i shall easily grant , & yet not think my self thereby concluded , or obliged to yeeld , but that it may also , at other times , note the holy assembly , or meeting for the performance of sacred duties , out of which it was sure no news for the jews ( after that capital judgements were taken away from them ) to eject notorious malefactors , particularly hereticks , false prophets , or their sectators , and disciples , as these here for preaching of christ , whom the jews acknowledged not ; in like manner as in the time of the captivity , esd . 10.8 . the order is given , that whoso●ver appears not upon summons 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , all his estate shall be ( forfeited we render , the word is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 noting the cherem which we now speak of ) devoted , anathematized , as an evidence of that kinde of excommunication which followes in the next words , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , he shall be separated from the church or congregation of the captivity , not only from civil , but ecclesiastical society with them , for so cherem was formerly demonstrated to signifie ; nay , it may with some reason be conceived in that place from ecclesiastical only , in case of cherem or total ejection ; for 't is more probable , that the king under whom they were captive , allowing them some liberty for the exercise of their religion , but in civil matters keeping them as captives and servants , should permit them to punish one another by that way of casting out of their ecclesiastical assemblies , then by that other of civil interdict , especially if it be conceiv'd to extend to banishment , &c. which would intrench upon his prerogative , and be a kind of turning the captive out of his captivity . sect. 63 that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 belongs to this second species , and so to casting out of the society in sacris , is the distinct affirmation of the learned l buxtorf in these words , haec est illa excommunicatio ( speaking of cherem ) de qua in evangelio iohannis , cap. 9.22.12.42 . etsi ab eo tempore rabbini quaedam ipsi adjecerint : and the intimation of m john coch also in these words , qui simpliciter excommunicatus est , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 est ille quidem separatus à coetu , ita ut pro vero membro ecclesiae non habeatur , non tamen videtur esse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quia doctrinae particeps est . from which words of that very learned man , i observe these two things contrary to what i see lately affirm'd . 1. that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth not belong to niddui , but to cherem . 2. that it is an ejection not only ab ecclesiâ , synagogâ , as that notes rempublicam judaicam , but from sacred assemblies , noted by doctrinae particeps , according to that rule in maimonides . devotus nec docet nee docetur , such an one is excluded from both , it seems , and so from those holy assemblies , where that was wont to be done . sect. 64 to this phrase of [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] is subjoyned jo. 16.2 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. but ( or yea ) the hour cometh that every man that killeth you shall seem , or be thought to do god service , or to offer a sacrifice to him ; whereon i shall interpose a conjecture , that those words may possibly denote the third degree , that of schammatha , at least a consequent of it , for so saith n buxtorf of that species , mortem dicit , quia cujusvis manibus ejus vita exposita est , & euilibet eum interficiendi libera potestas : it is so call'd , because such a mans life is exposed to any ones hands , every one having a free power of killing him : & so to that he applies the maranatha which is added to anathema , 1 cor. 16.22 . a forme of extreme proscription , delivering up the sinner to divine revenge , in which case whosoever kill'd him , conceived himself to perform an act of execution of justice , and service to god. some other places there are in the new testament belonging sect. 65 to these judaical censures , fit to be explained ; but i have chosen to insist onely on those because , i lately find them otherwise rendred , but yet discern no reason to recede from what i have now delivered , that they do belong to those species of excommunication not only from civil but from sacred assemblies , though one in an higher degree then another . to which i shall onely adde , that they which have applied these places to christian excommunication , any otherwise then only by way of accommodation , shall not be pleaded for by me , who acknowledge that they belong to the jews , and to their usage of christians , and not to some christians dealing with others ; but then sure there is as little reason on their side who will not allow that way of accommodation , which would not be at all unreasonable , though those phrases among the jewes were supposed to belong only to civil commerce ; it being ordinary for christ to ordain some things in his church , which were answerable to civil not sacred customes among the jews ( as the lords supper , sure an ecclesiastical rite among us , was to their post-coenium , which was not so , and many the like , ) to transplant from their forum to our church , and therefore no way unfit for the apostles and following church to appropriate those words to ecclesiastical senses , though they were supposed to be among the jewes of a greater latitude : of which sort , because i formerly promised it , i shall now specifie in some instances . this may be discern'd in the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which if sect. 66 any man should prove to have no other sense among christians , then that of a meeting together in a town hall , upon no other way of probation , but that the hebrew words answerable to that , are by the talmudists , yea even in the scripture of the old testament taken in this sense , this would be a little strange ; the matter of fact being most evident to the contrary , and it being most prompt and proper , that words used either among the greeks or hebrewes in forinsecal senses , may be bent by christian writers to a sacred . sect. 67 so in like manner , the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , it is acknowledged , is answerable to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 among the jewes , and that word denoted among them some offices , which if they may in any respect be counted ecclesiastical , are yet very distant from the christian use of it : such was that of the messengers sent out to demand and bring in the dues to the temple , which cannot without the helpe of accommodation be applyed to the christian acception of the word ; and such againe was the proxy in contracting or marrying two persons , for he was call'd 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i. e. apostolus also , an intercessor or internunce betwixt them , which as a sponsor , undertook for one to the other , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , such as samson had judg. 14.20 . i. e. in varinus his definition 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , of whom he saith that when the bridegroome himselfe must not goe into the fathers house , ( viz. in a o second marriage , such as that was of god with the gentiles , who had before espoused the jewes ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , hee sends one of his friends : to which m●tion of the word ( according to one punctation of the place ) the apostle may seem to referre , 2 cor. 11.2 . when he expresses his apostleship by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i have espoused you to one husband , according to that sense of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 acknowledged by p julius pollux , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , making the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or sponsor all one with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to signifie the interceding or mediating a marriage , all one with that word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there used by st. paul , agreeable to which the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is by pollux further extended to the mediators of any kinde of league , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; and then according to that notion also , is the apostles pacifick office , praying and beseeching us in christs stead to be reconciled to god , all which are very convenient accommodations , but farre from requiring the christian word to the very kinde of sense that the hebrew 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 did import . so againe , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , bishops in the christian church , doe in sect. 68 respect of their office , particularly that of imposition of hands , ( peculiar to them above the presbyters even in st. jeromes confession ) referre to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the princeps synedrii , who imposed hands upon those that were elected into the sanhedrim , but in respect of the name they referre to the use of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 among the jewes , and accordingly the very word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is both 1 mac. 1.53 . and in josephus , set to signifie them that are set over any publike businesse , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that set men a worke , and require an account of the performance , and yet are by way of accommodation brought both in the new testament , and in all sacred writers since , to signifie an office parallel to this , but purely ecclesiastick . so the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , though in the old testament sect. 69 it belong properly to the elders of the people either in a common notion , or as members of their sanhedrim , not any body , or single persons peculiarly ecclesiasticke , ( though by the way 't is most cleare , that the high priests were not onely of that number , part of their sanhedrim , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but also the chiefe of them , and therefore in the new testament the mention of the high priests and elders comes oft together in point of judicature ; and the businesse of that court , being all kinde of affaires , civil as well as ecclesiasticke , it was most reasonable that some persons of both conditions should be intrusted with them , and there being so , no wonder that there was no other court , or tribunal meerly ecclesiastical ) yet doth it unquestionably belong , both in many places of the new testament , and in the constant acception of primitive and after-writers , to an order of ecclesiasticks , as is most apparent both by clemens , and ignatius , and is confest by them , which assert the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of bishops , and presbyters : which makes it not very reasonable to consent to the way of arguing , twice used by that learned writer , who from the talmudical writings of the creation of the jewish elders , would conclude how little , or how nothing there is in the creation of a presbyter among christians , more then of a doctor of law , &c. but this by the way . sect. 70 lastly , so the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 deacons in the christian church are directly parallel to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 under the synagogue , called by epiphanius ( by a light inflexion or change of the hebrew ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or treasurers , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in philo , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in josephus ) which i wonder a * learned man should carpe at , onely upon this exception , because it was not proved they were in synagogis praefecti , ut ministrarent mensis , when 't is cleare that the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the acts , noting first the ministring to them in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that common table for the poore and rich , doth in universum signifie [ providing for the poore ] and that is as clearly parallel to the office of those treasurers among the jewes , as if they had literally in the synagogue served tables . sect. 71 i should now proceed to my third proposal , the phrases which are purely christian , but that i conceive it not unfit to take notice of one difficulty ( which wee have not yet mentioned , nor shall have occasion to mention among the phrases purely christian ) and to give some account of that in this place . and it is , to examine what was the condition , 1. of heathens . 2. of samaritans . 3. of those that are called sinners . 4. of publicans among the jewes ; being tempted to that ( if it be an extravagance ) by another parenthesis in a learned authour before mentioned . for gentiles , they were of three sorts ; either 1. proselytes sect. 72 of justice , who were circumcised , and undertook their whole law , and these were allowed to live among them , to enjoy all liberty and priviledges , that any jew did , differing from them in nothing but their gentile-birth . secondly , proselytes of the gates , which were converted so far by them , as to receive the precepts of the sonnes of adam and noah , but not to be circumcised , &c. and these were also permitted to live freely among them in civii society , and to come to the temple ( gods house being a house of prayer to all people , i. e. to all such gentle worshippers , or godly men of the nation ) but that with a marke of difference from the jewes , and perfect proselytes , there being a court provided on purpose for them , called the court of the gentiles , divided from the court of the jewes by a little partition called by the apostle 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , by josephus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , on which was written 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that no such gentile proselyte might goe in i. e. beyond their owne , into the jewes court ; and so these though admitted to society in sacris , yet were so removed or separated by law , the whole body of them , that they were in a manner under the censure of niddui , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , separated from them for some small space , proportionable to that of foure paces , but this not by any act of excommvnication , but by a general law or tradition , thus discriminating them from jewes in this particular . thirdly , there were the gentiles continuing still utterly sect. 73 unconverted in their gentilisme , and with those they were not to have society at all ( not onely in sacris , for there was no need of interdicting that , they would not joyne with them and for them to joyne in the gentile sacrifices were down-right idolatry ) but to separate from them , for feare their company and conversation should infuse their gentiles sinnes into them , wherein they were so strict , that they would not goe into the praetorium , where the band of roman ( i. e. such gentile ) souldiers were , joh. 18. ver . 28. counting it a pollution , if they had so done . so you see what was the condition of the gentiles among the jewes , and all this by law or standing custome among them , without any interposition of any degree of excommunication , as having nothing to do to judge them which are without , i. e. the last kind of gentiles , and having set rules for the other two . sect. 74 then for the samaritans , they are almost , if not quite , in the same case with the last sort of gentiles , no conversation allowed between the jewes and them , as you see joh. 4. ver . 9. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the jewes have not common commerce with the samaritans , no not so farre , as that one should give the other meat or drinke in his want , or helpe him to it , as appeares by the former part of that verse , doest thou being a jew aske to drinke of me being a samaritan ? they might not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , eat together , which was proportionable to the niddui , ( that being a separation , to the distance of foure paces , à congressu domestico , as well as sacro & civili , and a prohibition of eating and drinking together promiseuously ) and not onely so , but an interdicting of acts of common humanity , as helping to necessaries of life , like the proscription among the romans ; but this is not by way of excommunication againe , ( but by standing law or custome ) for the samaritans used not the same place of worship with the jewes , came not to jerusalem , joh. 4. ver . 20. and so could not be excommunicated by them . nay , matth. 10. ver . 5. you shall see the samaritans and the gentiles joyned together in opposition to the jews , when the apostles are commanded to go neither to the way of the gentiles , nor to the city of samaria , but onely to the lost sheep of the house of israel ; that is , first to them , before either samaritans or gentiles were preacht to , which were all one in effect , the samaritan being called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 an aliene , luke 17.16 . in the next place , the word sinners is in the new testament an equivocal word ; for it may signifie either gentiles , as gal. 2.15 . sinners of the gentlles ; or else scandalous offenders , infamous persons , harlots , &c. these ( it seems ) it was unlawful to eat with , mat. 9.11 . if taken under the first notion , the case will be clear upon the same account , as before we gave you of the heathens : but under the second notion , if sinners signifie notorious offenders , then are they considered either as men under the punishment of excommunication , or at least worthy to be under it , and that either under niddui or cherem , the lowest of which would make them uncapable of familiar conversation , and eating together with other jews ; and upon that ground , the jewes might quarrel with christ for eating with them , and s. paul speaking of the incestuous person might refer to the jewish custome , and thereupon command 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , not to eat with him , ( that remotion in niddui for the distance of four cubits , being unreconcileable with familiar eating together ) and so the pharisee , when the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , luk. 7.37 . came with her cruse of ointment , and anointed and kist christs feet , resolves that if christ knew what she were , he would not admit of so neer a commerce with her , and concludes him no prophet , that he did not know it . lastly , for the publicans , who were also thought unfit for sect. 76 men to eat and drink with , i conceive that is not again from any of the jewish censures past upon them , but only because either they were gentiles , and so uncapable of that commerce , or else being jews , yet being officers of the romans , they were supposed to commerce ordinarily with gentiles , and so to be polluted by that means , and by the law of legal pollution interdicted that familiar reception among the jewes ; notwithstanding which , it appeares , the publican , luk. 18 , 10. went up to the temple to pray , as well as the pharisee ; and if the parable be argumentative , it seems the pharisee and the publican were in the same court of the temple , ( as maybe guest by the pharisees pointing him out , this publican ) and so that the publican enjoyed all the same priviledges of accesse that the other did , ( though still he continued afar off , & that in a most humble posture , as if he he were ander niddui , that lowest degree of excommunication ) but because it may be subject to mistake , to argue from parables , i shall not do so , but leave the publican joyned with the sinner , as one heathen with another , both by the jewish laws , forbidden to converse with , and not expelled by any censure of excommunication . these conjectures being thus obiter and in passage premised , only on purpose to discard some lesse pertinent places , which some others perhaps have taken liberty to make use of , and not out of design to make any special advantage of this explication of them , in order to my present purpose , or in opposition to any ; i come now to the last thing proposed even now , to shew you the phrases more purely christian : such are , 1. to deliver unto satan , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 1 cor. 5.5 . 1 tim. 1.20 . answerable to cherem among the jews , so far as belonged to the society in sacris , a turning the blasphemer out of the church of christ . this was the frequent stile of excommunication , because it was the depriving the man of those every-day means which are in christianity afforded , as ordinarily usefull to eject satan and the power of his kingdom out of the heart : such are , 1. the prayers of the church . 2. the publick use of the word or doctrine of christianity : ( for so he that is under gherem , nec docet nec docetur , neither teacheth nor are taught , and in the ancient christian church it appears they were excluded from that , & upon repentance received for the first three years among the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or hearers in the porch , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , saith zonaras , which being the first degree of their return to communion , argues that before they were excluded from it ) and thirdly , the sacrament of the lords supper , in which respect scandalous sinners are by s. jude call'd spots in their feasts , or agapae ( which being annext to the lords supper denoted the whole action ) i. e. unfit , as blemished sacrifices to be received there . the use of which means being in the oeconomy of the gospel designed to so much advantage to the soule , for the casting satan out of it , consequently the banishing from , or depriving of the use of those means is properly stiled the delivering to satan , though in gods gracious disposal of all things , that be d●signed by him also to the same gracious end , to cast satan out of him , on whom nothing else can be able to work . sect. 77 but then secondly , it was so call'd , because in the apostles times a sad consequent there was of this tradition or excommunication , proportionable to the dirae or execrations in the jewish cherem , which , say they , rarò effectu carebant , seldome wanted the effect , to wit , corporal power and possession , and inflictions of satan on those , who were delivered up to him , as to a lictor or carnifex ( in like manner as we read befell saul after his defection from god , when the evill spirit came upon him , 1 sam. 16. vers . 14. ) for it must be remembred , that about christs time , and a little sect. 78 after , the devil was permitted to have such a ranging unlimited power , that he did ordinarily obtain leave to tyrannize over the bodies of mortal men , laying all kinds of diseases upon them , ( as indeed there is scarce any kind of disease , but some resemblance of it you may finde in some or other of those described in the gospel ) which is somtimes called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , satans buffeting , 2 cor. 12.7 . sometimes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , racking or tormenting , as of the paralytick , mat. 8.6 . grievously tormented , and so mat. 4. v. 24. that condition of men is described by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : we render it , taken with divers diseases and torments , the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) is used ordinarily for those , that are possest with devils , and so here of those consequents of such possessions , and therefore follows , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and possest with devils . and sometimes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to bind , as luk. 11.13 . in the story of the woman which had the spirit of infirmity , vers . 11. ( i. e. a devil or evil spirit that inflicted a strange infirmity or disease upon her ) 18. years , bowing her together , that she was not able to look up ; 't is said of her , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that satan had bound her , ver . 16. and the curing her is called loosing her from her infirmity , ver . 12. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , from her bond , ver . 16. agreeable to the phrase of binding and loosing in this businesse , mat. 16.19 . & 18.10 . hence it is that the apostles delivering to satan , is said to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 1 cor. 5.5 . to the destruction of the flesh , i. e. by way of pain or disease , a speciall part of apostolical discipline . thus in ignatius epistle to the romans , we have 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the punishment of the devil , which i conceive in that place must belong onely to temporal inflictions , because he wishes it were upon himself , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that he may by that means obtain or come to christ , of which eternal would deprive him ; and , perhaps s. pauls wish extended no farther , rom. 9. then to be thus excommunicate from the church of christ , and to be under those temporal evils that attended it , which was an exuberance of love also to his brethren . sect. 79 the summe of what hath been spoken on this point , is , that as amongst the ancient heathen romans there was banishment , and interdictio ignis & aquae , offenders were interdicted the necessaries of life : and as in iosephus , the esseni [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 &c. cast out from their congregation such as are taken in notorious offences , and they that are thus cast out , come many times to miserable deaths , consumed with hunger , &c. or as heliodorus , 2 mac. 3. in his sacrilegious enterprise was scourged by two angels in the shape of young men , v. 26. and hardly came off with life . so the apostolical excommunication , or anathema , was attended with these adversaries of life , diseases , pains , & grievous torments , to lay a necessity on them of returning , or being reformed by that means . and this i conceive is the rod which the apostle mentions , 1 cor. 4.21 . the power of inflicting death , as on ananias ; or diseases , blindnesse on elymas , and the like ; the heb : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there rendred 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , rod , being isa . 10.24 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a plague , all one with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , mar. 3.10 . and so very capable in that place of this interpretation , & by the matter of the choice there proposed to the corinthians most fitly applied to it . sect. 80 this have i said ▪ ( and might adde a great deal more ) to illustrate this one phrase of delivering to satan , and in it that apostolical censure of excommunication , and its attendant , corporal inflictions of diseases and pains . sect. 81 to all which , methinks cains condition described , gen. 4. is very applyable , ( by way of accommodation at least ) ver . 14. behold , thou hast driven me out from the face of the earth ; answerable to v. 11. thou art cursed from the earth , theor 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 anathema to which the cursing there is answerable , being a species of excommunication higher then niddui or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , even a driving or casting out , the english of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 before mentioned , luk. 6.22 . i. e. either from the church ( as anon you shall see 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifie ) or which is all one , from that part of the earth , where adam and his other children dwelt , as the sole church then existent , and thereupon immediatly it follows , and from thy face shal i be hid : gods face typically noting the church , where god had alwayes a peculiar presence , to which refers the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the bread of faces ; or shewbread in the temple , shewing or signifying the presence of god there , and i shal be a fugitive and vagabond ; and then finally it shal come to passe , saith he , that every one that findeth me , shall stay me ; there is the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 death , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; excision , from which though god freed him , v. 15. yet the other he lay under , as appears by v. 16. cain went out from the presence of the lord , went out , i. e. was turned out ( as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , mat. 25.46 . is all one with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , chap. 8.12 . ) of the presence of the lord , i. e. out of the church , or visible congregation of gods servants , the place where god is pleased peculiarly to exhibite himself , i. e. out of adams family or the place where he dwelt , for it follows , cain dwelt in the land of nod on the east of eden , but this onely as an image or accommodation . one thing i desire here to interpose as in a parenthesis , sect. 82 which hath been touched on in other * papers , but wil be here seasonably set down more at large , as peculiarly pertinent to the matter now in hand of delivering to satan , and 't is this , that this act of the church in delivering up to satan , is but an image of gods real dealing , who is wont upon occasion tradere satanae , to deliver men unto satan . the ground of this affirmation you may discern by compounding these scripture truths together . 1. that satan is our adversary before god , and therefore call'd satan 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which signifies so , and also 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 enemy , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 set against us , &c. secondly , that one main act of his satanship is exprest in accusing us before god , rev. 12.11 . and thence he is call'd peculiarly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i. e. an opposite , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in court of judicature , 1 pet. 5.8 . and that either 1. upon some false suggestion , no real crime , as particularly that of unsincerity ( or serving god only as long as god used him wel , allowed him the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) in the case of job , chap. 1. vers . 9.11 . in which respect he is peculiarly call'd 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a calumniator ; and 't is observable that the 72. doe most what render 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by that word , noting this act of calumnia●ing gods servants to their master , to be a special piece of his being our adversary ; or else , secondly , upon the real commission of some sin , which advantage he will be sure not to omit , when he can take it , for sure he that will accuse falsly , will not spare to accuse when he hath true matter of accusation allowed him . to which purpose he is stiled observator calcanei , an observer of the heel , in the vulgar latine , gen. 3.15 . ( agreeable to the septuagints 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , unless ( which i easily believe ) that be a fals print for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) an observer of the heel of christ , i. e. of christians , or one that goeth up and down , to and fro in the earth , job 1.7 . to finde out matter of accusation , and in this sense he is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i. e. an accuser ( as that differs critically from a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or calumniator ) of the brethren , i. e. christians , or believers , when they fal into a fault . an example of this , i conceive , we have in the case of s. peter , luk. 22.31 . where satans desiring to have peter , seems to be founded upon some previous or precedent accusation of him for some criminal commission , perhaps that of striving with the other disciples for superiority , immediately preceding . v. 24. ( as his successor at rome hath done ever since ) or for some other sin , which satan saw , though we do not at this distance . sect. 83 and upon this putting in of accusations against any , follows in the third place , his expetivit ut cribraret , luk. 22.31 . his desiring to winnow , his solemne petition to god that he that hath so offended , may be delivered unto him ; parallel to which our english bibles make that other place 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , seeking whom he may devour , 1 pet. 5.8 . which is there plainly attributed to him , as he is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a plaintiff or adversary in a court , impleading , or accusing , or delivering to the judge , matt. 5.25 . that so he may deliver him back , again as to a tormentor ; and then if this satanical course or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 prevaile , if this accusation be received , this petition be granted , as it was ( though with limitation ) job 1.12 . the result is , a man delivered up to satan , to have as job had , so many assayes of his malice practised upon him . to which purpose you may please to observe what psellus hath given us in his scholia on the chaldean oracles on that text [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the devils have the power of binding men ] 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . these punitive envious devils do bind , and even strangle the soules of good and ( as we say ) regenerate men : and from thence it follows , saith he , that we oft see 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , many of pure and holy conversations falling into unexpected calamities : according to that of the apostle , for this cause are many sick and weak among you , &c. and perhaps it may on this ground be farther observable , that when men are thus by god delivered up into satans hand ; and he by that permission designs them any mischief , he is able to foretell it to his instruments , and so somtimes doth foretell such future events , to get a reputation in the world of fore-knowing all things . now this being the condition of the apostolical censure or delivering sect. 84 to satan , that who were thus delivered , satan corporally tormented them , brought them to deaths doore , and sometimes killed them , it must follow on the other side . 1. that the apostles by the power of the keys , must be enabled together , both to cast out devils , and to heal diseases , and so they were , mat. 16.17 . in my name they shall cast out devils , and 18. they shal lay their hands upon the sick , and they shall recover . 2. that whom the apostles absolve from the censure of excommunication , they might and should also cure of diseases , the consequents of that censure then ( though not alwayes now , and therefore perhaps only the first power belongs to the governours of the church now , to wit , that of absolving , not of curing ) and so every where in the gospel we read forgivenesse of sins , and healing of diseases , or casting out devils , joyned together , as mat. 9.2 . christ saith to the sick of the palsie , son be of good cheer , thy sins are forgiven thee , and then v. 6. arise , take up thy bed and walk , ( the stile and ceremony of christs cure ) and the curing of that disease , an argument in christs own logick convincing and demonstrative , that he had power to forgive sins on earth , for though in mat. and luke it be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and so the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 on earth either applyable to son of man , or to the power of the son of man on earth , as probably , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to forgive sins , yet in the parallel place in mar. 2.10 . 't is distinctly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to forgive sins on earth , which is not subject to that ambiguity , i. e. to absolve in the church , because those diseases being consequent to gods delivering up to satan , which is the idea of the churches binding , the sinner must be first loosed ( i. e. his sin forgiven ) before he could be cured , and therefore the phrase was critically exact and proper of the woman with the spirit of infirmity , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to be loosed from her bond , to expresse the cure of that disease . so jam. 5.15 . ( which if it strictly belong not , may yet commodiously be applied to this matter ) you find together the ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) saving or recovering the sick , & [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] remission of his sins also : yea and it is observable what s. cyprian saith so many yeares after , that baptisme the seale of pardon of sin , freed those from evil spirits , that were before troubled with them ; ( whence sure it was , that the catechists that prepared converts for baptisme , are in the canons of the councils called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , exorcists ) and if after baptisme they relapsed to sinning , the evil spirit returned again ; by which 't is manifest , saith he , that the devil in baptisme is turn'd out by the faith of the believer , and his faith failing , returns again . sect. 85 i shall only adde two things to this matter , 1. that this may possibly be the original and occasion , if not the p●ime importance of that phrase , 1 joh. 5.16 . [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] a sin unto death , ( in which the faithful are not bound to pray for him that is guilty of it , or in which case there is no promise that their prayers shall be heard ) i. e. a sin of such a nature , as to which the delivering up to satan the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 belongs , the committer of which ( though he might in general be pray'd for , yet ) as long as he continued impenitent & obdurate he was deprived of the prayers of the church , at least was fit to be excluded out of the church , where men prayed in common one for another , as many as were present ; nay perhaps the apostles , having the power of discerning of spirits , might possibly discern some man impenetrably obstinate , and so irrecoverably gone , and so give over all praying or interceding for him , ( as on the other side [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] if any man without that spirit of discerning , see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death , he shall ask or pray , &c. nay on the contrary pray for his excision in some cases , as the after-church judging , though with an humane ( and so possibly fallible ) judgment , of julian the apostate , banisht him out of their prayers , ( and rather prayed for his cutting off ) to which yet i make no doubt they would have given him a return , if they should have discerned any probability of his return unto the faith . the second thing which i shal add hereby way of appendage , sect. 86 is , that from hence will appear , the meaning of anathema maranatha , 1 cor. 16.22 . which is as if it were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the second , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( the lord comes ) the third sort of the jewish censures ) compacted or put together into one , perhaps not to signifie in that place any peculiar kinde of censure among christians instituted ( as some would think ) in these words against those that have committed the sin against the holy ghost . for the [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , loveth not ] there , will not properly signifie that sin , nor indeed any other , of which the church can have cognizance , ( loving , or not loving being a secret of the heart , til it break out into some actual virtue or sin , & then it puts off that title of the affection , and is call'd by the name of the action ) but by way of accommodation , to apply to the state of such a man the two last degrees of excommunication among the jews , the one noting total , the other final , irreversible excision ; and by that terrible representation , as by a clap and a flash of thunder and lightning together , to give a through sense of the danger of that state to set an amazing formidable mark or character upon those that love not the lord jesus : whether they be hypocrites , who whatsoever els they are , are certainly no lovers of christ , at least not lovers 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in sincerity , ep. 6.24 . or whether haters of him , as al vicious persons are , and then the [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , let him be ] is not alwayes a legal form of censure , but either a prophetick or apostolical denunciation , importing but this , that the hypocrite or hater of jesus christ shall undoubtedly be damned . by that which hath been said on occasion of this first phrase sect. 87 ( of delivering to satan ) wil appear distinctly , wherein this power of binding in the first branch of it , as peculiar to the apostles from after ages , consists , peculiarly in the power of delivering up to corporal inflictions , diseases , &c. the other phrases will express the matter as it is common to the apostles times with all after ages , the ecclesiasticall discipline , not as it differs from , but as 't is al one with the apostolical , devested only of that one consequent among them , the corporal inflictions . in this rank is the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i will not spare , 2 cor. 13.2 . explained , sect. 88 v. 10. by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , abscision , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , sublition , taking away , or turning out of the church ; for i conceive the ver . is thus to be paraphrased . these things i , now being absent , write to you , that when i come , i may not be forc'd to use acts of severity , according to the power which is given to me for edification ( which i rather desire to make use of ) and not according to the power which was given to me for destruction or excision . ) so again , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1 cor. 5.9 . the apostles command of not communicating or associating with such . it hath much troubled some scrupulous enquirers , where or when it was that s. paul had thus written unto them , phansying it necessary to resolve that he had written some other epistle to the corinthians before this first . but sure the beginning of the chapter will lay this scruple , for to that ( and not to any other farther off ) the [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i. e. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i have written in this epistle that you should not company , &c. ] doth belong , and that the [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] i have now written , vers . 11. will enforce , for so in 3 , 4 and 5. verses we read , i verily , as absent in body , but present in spirit , have judged already as though i were present , concerning him that hath done this deed ; in the name of our lord jesus christ , when you and my spirit are gathered together with the power of the lord jesus christ , to deliver such an one unto satan , &c. the apostle though absent , yet having an apostolick ruling power or jurisdiction over them , passeth censure ( as formally , as if he had been amongst them ) upon that fornicator or incestuous person : and by that spirit or power of his , whereby he was present in their assemblies , doth therein pronounce this censure of excommunication or delivering up to satan against him , that by this means he may reduce that notorious offender ( that is the importance of those 3. verses ) and that others be not tainted by his example , verse 6. &c. and then verse 9. ( having a little digrest , v. 7 , 8. ) he resumes his matter again , and saith it over briefly in another phrase , with an 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i. e. this then was it i wrote to you in , or , by epistle , ( because i was not present ) that you should not company with such . by which it appears that the delivering a man to satan , and the commanding 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , are all one ( or one but a light addition to , or variation from the other ) all other men being so far concern'd in such a ones being so delivered , as not to company with him ; yet that not so much ( as men now a daies think ) lest they should be polluted by him , ( i. e. by that act of communion with him , as under the law by touching an unclean thing ) as to help discipline him , that the insensate sinner may see himself left alone to no society but satans ( avoided , abandoned by all ) and so be brought to a sense of his detestable dangerous condition , ( and others kept from thinking his actions exemplary or fit to be imitated by them ) and therefore though this discipline be not used upon sinners cut of the church , ver . 12. for they will not be wrought on by the christians abandoning their company , yet saith st. paul vers . 11. with a professor of christianity , one that lives in the church , and yet is guilty of this sin , or the like , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ( for so i conceive the words must be joyned , all betwixt being in a parenthesis ) neither to company nor eat with him , in stead of which , 2 thes . 3.14 . 't is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 simply , onely with a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( which it seems is a preparative to it ) set a mark , or brand upon him , and doe not company with him ) which in either place whether it belong onely to exclusion from communion in sacris , or be to be extended to interdiction of ordinary civil society , i professe my self not over-confident ; for the former onely this may be said . 1 that although the sound of the words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( especially as we render it , no not to eat ) seem to contain the latter also , yet perhaps the aequipollence of that other phrase [ delivering to satan ] may restrain it to the former . 2. because the interdiction of conversing or eating with christian offenders might ( now at least ) make it necessary for a man to go out of the world , as w●ll as the interdict of heathen-fornicators company would have done then . 3. because the phrase [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] which in the close of the chapter is set to expresse the former censure , is by the canons of the councels solemnly applyed to these ecclesiasticall censures , suspension either from the church or from office in it . and yet on the other side the jews were so severe to some , sect. 89 as to deem it unlawfull either to eat or familiarly to converse with them , as samaritans , publicans , heathens and sinners ( so call'd 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i. e. notorious sinners ) and a notable evidence and example of that practice of theirs we have in the 3. book of maccabees , where speaking of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , deserters , or those that fell off to any notorious breach of their law , the author saith , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , they did expresse a detestation of them , judging them as enemies of the nation , and denyed them the civility of common converse or good usage , al friendly entertainments , &c. and the same is called after in that place , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a separating from them , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ( though it be read corruptly , and without sense , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) aversation , and exprest by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , they appeared enemies to them : and even the jewish nidui or first degree of excommunication , being a remotion ad 4. passus , not suffering any man to come within four paces of him that was so censured , was an interdiction of familiar conversation or eating with him . and therfore perhaps some of that their discipline may be here imitated , and retained ; but then again for the former opinion , christ by his contrary practice seemed to dislike that custome of theirs , and though he brought excommunication into the church or in sacris , 't is not necessary he should continue that other that extended to civil commerce , and therefore still perhaps may not . sect. 90 the best decision perhaps wil be , that this censure ordinarily belongs only to society in sacris ; but yet sometimes the state of affairs so requiring , and when some other defect may be so supplyed , the governours may proceed to the second interdict , that no man shal talk familiarly , or entertain , or eat with them , that all men shall avoid their company , discountenance them , and not so much as say god speed , allow them ordinary christian civility , by this means to besiege , and starve them up , and so , if possible , humble and reduce them . to which purpose it is observable what the learned and judicious hugo grotius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hath noted concerning this matter , that in a christian church where either through the recentnesse of their plantation communes conventus non sunt , there are no constant common assemblies of the christians in it , or wherupon the same occasion there is no settled government in the hands of a bishop and assistent presbyters , or where the church is torn asunder by schismes , ( as in corinth , when this first epistle was written , chap. 11.18 . whence it follows , v. 31. that judgments or censures were neglected , and upon that neglect , diseases and deaths among them , ( i would , i could not say among us also ) whereas at the writing of the second epistle , the discipline together with a quiet judicature was restored , 2 cor. 2.6 . ) there in stead of exclusion from communion in sacris , that other interdict of private commerce , or avoyding of private familiarity hath been thought useful by the apostle ; to this you may apply , rom. 16.17 . where the apostle beseeches them , to mark and avoid such as cause divisions and offences among them , and so 2 thessal . 3.14 . just now mentioned , if any man obey not our word by this epistle , note that man , and have no company with him , &c. and if in this respect , mat. 18.17 . may be extended to this sense also , 't will no way contradict or prejudice our present pretensions , it being very reasonable for private christians to constrain themselves toward those who have exprest such a contradiction to all fraternal methods of charity , and by outward behaviour to shew a dislike of their contumacie and obduration , especially when an apostle at a distance shal pass that judgment on any particular man , & the present state of the church leaves no place for expectation of formal censures , the law of the heathen charondas being not unreasonable in this case ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that no man converse with a wicked man or woman , or bring a reproach on himself , as if he were like him . another phrase to expresse this censure is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , sect. 91 tit. 3.10 . after a first and second admonition , avoid him ; which that it belongs to the method directed to by christ , mat. 18.15 , 16 , 17. 't is clear at the first sight : but seeing there be three admonitions before censure , mat. 18. the first of the injured person alone , the second of the two or three , the third of the church the difficulty will be , which 2. of those 3. are the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 first & second here ? my opinion of it , with submission , is , that the first & second here are the very same with the first & second in s. mat. 1. that of one alone , and then of that one , with one or two more with him . and if it be objected , that then the excommunication must not follow immediatly upon that second , i answer that those words , being spoken to titus bish . of creet by s. paul , telling him what he should do , must needs make a difference frō what it would be , if 't were a private man ; it appeared probable before that the admonition of the church signified that of the rulers of the church & therfore when they have admonished , there is no place for appeal to the church , nor consequently for that third admonition , and therefore in this case , where the governour ( who is representatively the church it self , a publique , no private person ) after a first and second admonition ( and the second with one or two , perhaps with some or all of the college of presbyters joyned with him ) comes to be despised , the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 follows , or proceeding to censure without any third admonition interposing . which will appear to be the practice , if you look 2 cor. 13.2 . where immediately after the second admonition , in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , characterized v. 11. by [ in the mouth of two or three , &c. ] he tels the offenders , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , i will not spare , i. e. i will proceed to censure : and ver . 10. he tels them , that this admonition is ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that i may not proceed to excision , or cutting off , ( for so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which we render sharpnesse , signifies ) which is there called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , taking away , in the end of the verse ; the very word which is so ordinary in the ancient canons , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , tollatur , for the censure of excommunication . sect. 92 and the reason is there rendred , because you may know that such an one , that holds out against those admonitions of the church or rulers thereof 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is a perverse wilful sinner , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , being self-condemned , i. e. i conceive by that non-submission to the churches admonitions , he withdraweth and divideth himself from that comm●nion , and so inflicteth that punishment upon himself , which the censures of the church are wont to do on malefactors , for that is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 2 cor. 13.10 . and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , cut●ing off from the church , which he being an heretick doth voluntarily without the judges sentence , his verv 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , heresie being a willing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or excision . so saith s. jerome , whereas fornicators , &c. are turn'd out of the church , the hereti●k inflicts this on himself , suo arbitrio ab ecclesiâ recedens , going of his own choice from the church ; which departing , propriae conscientiae videtur esse damnatio , seems to be the censure of ones own conscience : so in the council of laodicea , can. 40. after an order that no bishop shal disobey a citation , when he is called to a co●n●el , 't is added 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , if he contemn , he shal be conceived to acc●se himself , which is the next degree to self-condemnation . so in the 22. can. of the african codex , ( or in justellus his account , the 19. ) the words are clear of a bishop that being accused before a council appears not , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , he shall be judged to have pronounced sentence of condemnation against himself , and so even in philostratus . l. 7. c. 7. it is a saying of apollonius , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he that shall decline a judicature , how shall he avoid the being thought to have condemned himself ? so in the 12. tables , praesenti litem addicito , i. e. that he that absents himself , be alwayes cast ; and so the franks have alwayes observed it , ut absens causâ caderet , ni sonnia nuntiasset , that the absent should be alwayes condemned , unlesse he gave a just excuse of his absence . and the regulae ab abbate floriacensi constitutae adde , qui non comparuerit , tanquam convictus judicabitur , he that appeareth not , shall be judged as convict , i. e. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : if you would see this interpretation more fully confirmed , i must refer you to marculsi formul . l. 1. c. 37. and bignonius on them , to stephan . fornerius rerum quotid . l. 6. c. 21. and out of him , justellus in the notes on cod. ecclesiae universae , p. 38. but enough of this . i shall take in no more places to examine for this point sect. 93 of the nature of this power , save only those in the gospel ( with which this discourse began ) which , as we have once gone over in relation to the first enquiry , so we shall now again in order to the second . first , then , mat. 16.19 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , sect. 94 [ i will give you the keys of the kingdome of heaven ] where 't wil be no news to him that is vers'd in the new testament , if i tell him that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the kingdome of heaven , signifies the church of christ here below militant , being not a disparate body but a fellow-member of christ , with the other triumphant in heaven . i could weary my reader with places to this purpose , ready at every turn to justifie this interpretation , as when 't is said of st. john the baptist , matt. 11.11 . that though from the beginning there had not risen a greater then he , ( a more then prophet in pointing out rather then prophesying of christ , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , behold the lamb of god ) yet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , he least in this new church , ( this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 — the age to come , as the septuagint , es . 9.6 . cal it , & so heb. 2.5 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the world to come , and perhaps heb. 6.5 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the powers of the age to come , i. e. of christianity , & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the comming kingdom , as the phrase in s. mark. 11.10 . may i conceive , be rendred absolutly thus , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , blessed in the name of ehe lord of our father david , be the comming kingdome ; or blessed in the name of the lord be the comming kingdome of our father david ; this church or kingdome of christ here on earth , not hereafter in heaven ) the least believer , at least teacher of the gospel here ( not saint there ) is greater then he . so mat. 8.11 . upon the centurions comming to christ , and expressing so great measure of faith , that he professes not to have found the like in any jew , he adds that many shall come from the east and west , all parts of the heathen world , and sit down with abraham , isaac , and jacob , in the kingdom of heaven , i. e. as that centurion did , believe in christ ( and become one church with the jews , of whom abraham the father of the faithful was the first ) and the children of the kingdome ( they that were till then the only church , to wit , the rebellious unbelieving jews ) should be cast out . so clearly ch. 13.24 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the kingdome of heaven , the church here below , not the kingdome above , is likened , &c. for sure there are no enemies to sow , nor tares to be sown in heaven , which in this kingdom are there said to be , ver . 15. ( as rev. 12.7 . the war that is mentioned in heaven may be an argument that heaven in that place signifies the church here below , which onely being militant can be said to have war in it ) and so in the other parables in that chapter . i have named enough for an hint to any to observe many more in this gospel , chap. 18.1 , 3 , 4. chap. 19.24 , 25. chap. 20.1 . chap. 21.43 . and ( which is a little nearer to the phrase in this place ) chap. 23.13 . the pharisees shutting up the kingdome of heaven before men , i. e. keeping men from entring the church , from becomming christians , and the like also in the other gospels . if this notion of the kingdome of heaven do yet seem alien , or forced , or lesse proper for this place , then you may but please to observe , that a key refers to a lock , a lock to a door , or entrance to any place , and then the church being supposed the door or gate , the only way of passage to heaven , these keys of heaven it self must be the keys of the church below , as of the door that leads thither , and then that will return to the same issue still . so then , peter , and in him the rest of the apostles and successor-governors of the church had the keyes of the church given them , i. e. clearly a power of shutting out , or receiving in to the visible militant church , of removing the contumacious by censure of excommunication , and receiving in the humble penitents by absolution , and so of binding and loosing , ( as it follows ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , here below , upon the earth , answerable to that exception of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( for the church ) premised , and just agreeable to the phrase , mark. 2.10 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to forgive sins on earth , which ( it appears by the mentioning of the keyes as the foundation of this power ) signifies receiving men into the church , disexcommunicating , and therefore the binding is there peculiarly the censure of excommunication , and nothing else ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the thing we undertook to shew from hence . from whence by the way may be understood the meaning of sect. 96 that place , mat. 12.32 . it shall not be forgiven him , ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , impersonally ) he shall not receive absolution , either in this world , i. e. in the church from the ecclesiastick censure , nor at the day of judgement , i. e. in the world to come , the phrase seeming to me to refer to that rule among the jews mention'd before out of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●r . de excom . si quis juret in hunc modum , &c. if any man swear after this manner , [ if this be not true , let me be excommunicated in this world , and in the other ] and be perjur'd , he cannot be absolv'd by any : and then how ridiculous are they that ground a purgatory on this place ? we shall not need to make any distinct survey of the second sect. 97 place , chap. 18.18 . because ( as to the matter of this power , our present enquiry ) it is verbatim ( only the number and some little unimportant circumstances changed ) the same with this former place , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , binding and loosing in the earthly part of the kingdome of heaven , the church below . one thing only it will not be amisse again to add as an appendage common to these two places ( though we mentioned it before ) and it is this , that [ the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] the mention of absolution is ( in both ) an attendant of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or binding precedent , as indeed loosing generally presupposes a band , and therefore act. 2.24 . where we read , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) and render it , ( loosed the pains of death ) 't is sufficiently clear , and confest that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are there taken for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( by the equivocalnesse of the hebrew word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which signifies both , & is rendred by the 72. sometimes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a band , sometimes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a pang of travail ) and so should be rendred in that place , bands of death , in relation to which it follows , he could not be holden , &c. which intimates absolution to be in universum , or absolutely necessary onely to those that have been bound , and so only after excommunication , the absolution proportion'd to the precedaneous censure , and that the onely thing that lyes upon any , necessitate praecepti here , or medii in any other respect , all other absolution without this precedent binding censure , being ( though it may be allowed very useful & profitable for the comfort and satisfaction of the penitent , yet ) neither commanded , prescribed the priest to give , nor the penitent to receive ( at least by either of these two places . ) sect. 98 as for the third place , joh. 20.26 . ( which by some is thought to belong to somewhat else , rather then those censures of the church , 1. because the phrases are other , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , remitting and retaining , in stead of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , binding and loosing . 2. because the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , [ remit ] is before 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , [ retain . ] and 3. because this is deliver'd to all the apostles together , whereas the two other were spoken , one personally to peter , the other of the church ) i in humility conceive , that as before we shewed that this place in s. john belonged to the same persons to which the other two belonged , to wit , the apostles and their succeeding rulers of the church , so it is perfectly parallel to them also in respect of the matter of the commission ; and my reasons are these : 1. because the phrases , though ( as the first reason pretends ) other in sound , are yet directly synonyma's with the former in scripture-stile . i say that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to remit , is al one with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to loose , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to retain , with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to bind . and therefore theophylact uses together 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , power of remitting and binding , confounding the two places in s. john and s. mat. together , and rendring 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to retain , by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to bind ; and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to loose , by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to remit , in mat. 16.19 . and so promiscuously in other writers . if there be the least difference it is onely this , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies to bind , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to bind , and also to keep bound ; in which respect 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is more proper here in s. john , because the order is inverted , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , retaining , put after 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , remitting , and so the word which signifies also [ to keep bound ] or to not-remit , is more perfectly & critically agreeable , then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to bind would have been ; and yet when binding is mentioned first , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as exact as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as in the other places : but yet for all this light accidental difference , i shall not retract saying , the words are in use perfectly synonymous ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , remit , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , loose ; especially as applyed to sin ; both signifie forgiving of it ; the first as sin is taken under the notion either of a debt , or a thraldom , ( for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is in the n. test . applyed to both , to the one in the lords prayer , to the other luk. 4.18 . and both directly opposed to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) the second , as of a band ; so in the septuagints translation of the old testament , gen. 4.12 . ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , perhaps false copied for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , my sin is greater then can be forgiven ) or more clear●y , exod. 32.21 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , if thou wilt , ( or , o that thou wouldst ) forgive them that sin ; and in divers other places ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , remit ) taken for forgive , and so in like manner 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to loose , job 42.9 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ( a translation of the words which are in hebrew 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 god accepted the person of job praying for them ) he forgave them that sin by job , i. e. by his mediation . there 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 [ to loose ] is taken for [ to forgive . ] so also for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to bind , and to hold or retain , the sect. 99 same hebrew word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is rendred by the septuagint , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) jer. 33.1 . and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , dan. 10.8 . & 11.6 . and so act. 2.24 . [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] being holden , is set opposite to ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) loosing of bands , and so must signifie keeping bound , ( and in almost all other places it signifies to hold fast , or take hold of , mat. 18.28.21.46.26.4 , &c. and is sometimes joyned with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as holding fast is precedaneous , and preparative to binding , mat. 14.3 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , laying hold on him , bound him , and apoc. 20.2 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , held and bound ) and so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , though rendred to retain , is taken for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to bind also , ( or if there be any difference , t is this , that it signifies lesse then binding , rather then more , and so will not conclude any thing which the former places were not able to conclude . ) and so you may observe in the fathers , viz. s. basil , speaking of the freedome of christians in their bands , he saith they are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , bound , but not capable of binding ; and many the like . secondly , because the inverting of the order of words is too light and casual a thing to be argumentative , and therefore the second reason is of little force , being taken onely from that change , for which yet some reasonable account also may be given from the variety of the words , which caused this inversion , and consequently no more argument will be deducible from this change of order , then from the change of words would be just to deduce : if the change of the words would argue ought , then i confess the inverting of the order , caused by that , would per modū accumulatiònis do so too ; but that being once cleared to import no new thing , this which is onely attendant on that , cānot be thought to do so , & so there will be no need of farther answer to that , when the former hath bin sufficiently answer'd . sect. 100 thirdly , because the third ground of scruple is as unconvincing also , the other two being delivered to all the apostles also , as well as this : the first to all in s. peters person , ( as 't is ordinary for donations made to communities to be delivered to one of that number for the use of all ) as is acknowledg'd by all but those , whose pretended interest in s. peter hath bribed them to inflame his , and lessen the other disciples prerogative , asmuch as they can . and the second in plain words with a preface of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , verily i say to you , i. e. to the disciples with whom the discourse had continued by way of mutual colloquie from the beginning of the chap. this i am sure is the affirmation of the greek fathers , particularly theophylact on mat. 13. where he affirms that promise of the power of binding and loosing to be fulfilled in those words of christ in s. john , whose sins you do remit , &c. the place was formerly set down at large , and need not be repeated ; and if you examine the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 throughout the n.t. you will have no temptation to doubt it . sect. 101 having now declared out of the scripture the foundation & progresse of this power , these censures , and occasionally interweaved the interpretation of some places which i conceive to depend on this matter , it were now a fit season to proceed to the writings of the ancient church , and draw down the history of this practice through the first & purer times : but that hath been so faithfully performed by many others , particularly by spalatensis , that it would be a great insolence to attempt to do it better . only it will be worth our rehearsing , ( though we only refer you to that magazin for all farther explication of it ) that there were some nice differences observed in this matter between the binding which was a censure , and the other which was onely a punishment , the one conceived to bind in heaven , the other not . 2. betwixt the binding of the refractory impenitent , and the humble confitent penitent : the first for the cure and removing the scandal of some notorious crime ; the second on his voluntary confessing his crime , and submitting himself to be bound by way of penance , that so by being loosed again , he might be the more sure of that pardon in heaven , which is promised to those which are absolved on earth , & so propter majorem cautelam , to satisfie the trembling conscience , and assure it that god hath forgiven him . these are excellent profitable subjects , in which i desire the reader will satisfie himself out of those judicious collections of that very learned unhappy man. and if it be now demanded of me , whether private absolution be not contained under the importance of these places ? i answer , that this last distinction hath in effect answered this question , and defined , that in case of private binding it doth come under it , and that that , though in some sense it be left ad libitum , or voluntary to the penitents will or choice , is yet necessary to every one whose conscience either is not able to perform & go through the work of inward repentance with god alone , or is not able to satisfie it self with such performance without the ministers assistance called in . to which purpose i shall desire that that may be considered sect. 102 which is delivered by our church in the second exhortation before the communion , in these words : because it is requisite that no man should come to the holy communion but with a full trust in gods mercy , and with a quiet conscience ; therefore if there be any among you , which by the means aforesaid ( which were to examine their lives by the rule of gods commandments , and wherein they shall perceive themselves to have offended , either by will , word , or deed , there to bewaile their own sinful lives , and confesse themselves to almighty god with full purpose of amendment ; and if their offences be also against their neighbours , then to reconcile themselves to those , with readinesse to make restitution and satisfaction for wrong done , and to forgive others that have offended them ) cannot quiet his own conscience , but requireth farther comfort or counsel , then let him come to me , ( i. e. his lawful pastor ) or some other discreet and learned minister of gods word , and open his grief , that he may receive such ghostly counsel , advice , and comfort , as his conscience may be relieved , and that by the ministery of gods word he may receive comfort , and the benefit of absolution , to the quieting of his conscience , and avoiding all scruple and doubtfulnesse . all which being an exhortation of the church belonging to a particular case , [ when a man by the use of all helps which are within his own reach , cannot attain to quiet of conscience , or be satisfied that he is fit to receive the holy communion ; ] as they do imply that those foresaid meanes may happily serve the turn , without opening his case to the minister , and consequently without receiving absolution ; so are they a fervent exhortation to all , in case those means prove not successfull , to seek out , & make use of those auxiliaries , which whosoever in that case shall neglect , will be guilty of great unkindness to his own soul , and may well be thought to have betray'd it to great and needlesse danger . and it is worthy our noting from hence , that receiving of comfort , & the benefit of absolution are by our church here conjoyned , to signifie this absolution to be beneficial to him that once wanted comfort , as a meanes of confirming that comfort which the minister had now given him . to which end certainly 't is very proper & seasonable : for when a discreet & learned minister , having had the survey of my soul , ( the cognizance of my offence first , & then of my repentance ) shall from the word of god give me assurance , that ( if i am what to him i appear to be ) my estate is good , & thereupon pronounce me absolved , as a true penitent , from all my sins ; this will , 1. seal me a right of gods promise of forgivenesse in heaven , as it were solemnly and in the court ; and 2. extremely quiet me , and confirm to me that comfort , i. e. that comfortable opinion of my good estate , and hope of my future happiness , which he had given me , when i see him who hath no reason to be partial to me , and whom i cannot suspect of ignorance , or passion in this particular , ( both which perhaps i may upon enquiry discern in my self ) and beside , who is set over me by christ to this purpose , pronounce so clear a sentence of me , and that ( as the precedent words are ) by the ministery of gods word , i. by applying peculiar parts of that infallible truth to the present condition of my soul , and from thence pronouncing my absolution . and that this is the meaning of the absolution there , it is evident by that which is the second thing , which i thought worthy our observing from hence , viz. what is added in conclusion , as the ultimate end of that comfort and absolution , the quieting of conscience , and avoiding of all scruple and doubtfulnesse ; which whether they be distinct , so that the quieting of conscience may be the completion of the comfort , and the avoiding of all scruple and doubtfulnesse , the end intended in , and obtained by absolution , or whether both together indiscretè belong to both together , the product will be still the same , that in case a man be not able to satisfie his own scruples and doubts concerning himself , the presbyter wil be able to stand him in good stead , by the word of god applied to his case to give comfort , and by pronouncing absolution to him to seal that comfort , and perswade him to a greater confirmation of mind , that that comfort is not groundlesse , and so take away doubts and scruples concerning that matter which before molested him , and made him unfit for the communion , which was the only occasion of the exhortation . beside this , it is also true , that in case of sicknesse s. jame's sect. 103 advice ( if not command ) is punctual , that the presbyters of the church be call'd for , and that they shall anoint the sick ( a ceremony used in those dayes by christ and his apostles in the curing of diseases , and casting out devils , not so much as a viand toward our last great journey , as among the romanists 't is continued , but either as a sign of our spiritual cure , or as a means sanctified by prayer to cure the sick , to deliver from the disease in the beginning of the verse ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and if he be that have committed sins , absolution shall be given him ; for so that phrase will be most grammatically rendred , not [ they shall be forgiven him ] for then it would be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , nor that [ god shall forgive him ] for then it would be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to agree with , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 immediately precedent , the lord shall raise him , but impersonally remittetur ei , he shall have absolution . of which absolution 1. there is little question , but that it is a very proper preparative to curing of his disease which is oft sent to awake some drowsie sinner , and is not removed til it have done the work in some measure , ecclus. 38.9 , 10. & therefore the ordinary preface to christs cures , is [ son thy sins are forgiven thee ] as 2. mac. 3. when heliodorus had been so scourged for his sacrilegious enterprize , and the high priest offered sacrifice for his recovery , verse 32. the priest is said to have made an attonement , and thereupon god granted him his life , verse 33. and so ecclus 2.11 . before gods delivering in time of tribulation , there is first his 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , remitting of sins , before releasing from the pressure ; and secondly , that absolution , as it is the ministers act peculiarly , and an act of benediction in him , contrary to the execration in the cherem , or anathema , may well be thought in common reason to have benign influence on the patient , as the curses of parents are generally believed to be fattal curses 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in orpheus , the curses of parents are shrewd furies that haunt a man where ever he goes on the earth , have an inauspitious influence on all his earthly prosperities , devour and eat out his patrimony ; and so also by the rule of contraries , the blessings of parents , eccl. 3.9 . may availe toward the removing of temporal calamities , and so consequently , the prayers and blessings , and absolution of the presbyter the spiritual father . thirdly , there will be as little question who shal be the minister of it , when 't is considered that there is no supposition or presumption in that place of the presence of any , but onely of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the presbyters of the church , and as little will there be of the fitnesse , and exceeding expedience , that the sins of which he is so peculiarly to receive absolution should be confessed , and bewailed before him , from whom the absolution is expected . one thing only the context may perhaps farther import , that this presbyterial absolution may not be ( by force of that place ) so absolutely necessary to all sick persons , but onely to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to him that hath ( formerly , & so as upon examination of himself , he may reasonably impute his sicknesse to it ) committed sins , either as the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 denotes greater sins , or as sins contrary to our duty towards god , whose minister the presbyter is , or as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies to live indulgently in sin , and so as it is not reconcilable with a * regenerate estate , as long as it continues . for 't is worth observing what follows in that place , james 5.16 . confesse 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 your transgressions 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to one another , one brother , i. e. christian to another , the sick to them in health , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , be ye all subject to one another , 1 pet. 5.5 . i. e. all that are inferiours , to all superiours . where , whether 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifie a trespasse peculiarly against our brethren , or whether ( as 't is resolved by grammarians ) lapses , or lighter sins , it seems to be here set in a distance from ( if not opposite to ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the greater sins , or those against god ; and then as the confession of them to the presbyter , gods officer , will in any reason be most proper , to obtain comfort on safe grounds , and the benefit of absolution upon sincere repentance ; so in those sins of an inferiour rank confession to the wronged brother , or to whatever fellow-christian , may possibly be sufficient ; and assuredly not unuseful or unnecessary , if it be but for the obtaining of the brothers united prayers , to help to remove the sicknesse , if that be inflicted ( as oft sicknesses are ) as a punishment for any such trespasses . in which case as the promise is there given of recovery to the sick upon those other mens prayers , and not otherwise , so there is little hope that god will accept thy private prayers for removing that punishment , till thou go and reconcile thy selfe unto thy brother , and desire and obtain his prayers for thee , ( as job's for his friends ) when thy injuring of him had cryed to haven , and fetch 't down that infliction on thee . nay thirdly , there will be little matter of doubt , or controversie , sect. 104 but that private , frequent , spiritual conference betwixt fellow-christians , but especially ( and in matters of high concernment and difficulty ) between the presbyter and those of his charge , even in the time of health ; and peculiarly , that part of it which is spent in the discussion of every mans special sins & infirmities , & inclinations , may prove very useful and advantageous ( in order to spiritual directions , reproof and comfort ) to the making the man of god perfect . and to tel truth , if the pride and self-conceit of some , the wretchlesnes of others , the bashfulnes of a third sort , the nauseating , and instant satiety of any good in a fourth , the follies of men , and artifices of satan had not put this practice quite out of fashion among us , there is no doubt , but more good might be done by ministers this way , then is now done by any other means separated from the use of this , particularly then by that of publick preaching , ( which yet need not be neglected the more when this is used ) which hath now the fate to be cryed up , and almost solely depended on , it being the likelier way , as quintilian saith ( comparing publick and private teaching of youth ) to fill narrow-mouth'd bottles , ( and such are the most of us ) by taking them single in the hand , and pouring in water into each , then by setting them altogether , and throwing never so many buckets of water on them . sect. 105 i conceive , i have now distinctly set down the ful importance of this power of binding & loosing , and how it belongs peculiarly to the publick censures of the church , the binding by way of excommunication , or depriving of the common benefits of christians , ( together with that branch of corporal discipline , or inflictions on mens bodies , peculiar to the apostles times and power ) and the loosing , in restoring the excommunicate person upon repentance to the assembly of the saints . and by this perhaps may be received some satisfaction to that question agitated sometimes , whether absolution in the church be onely declarative , or moreover ministerially authoritative ? which question wil not now have so much place , the matter being thus stated . for the churches absolution being not the actual eternal pardon of sins in heaven , ( which is left to be gods work , none but he justifyng sinners , except by way of consequent upon this promise of gods ) but peculiarly the freeing the penitent from ecclesiastical censures here below , & from that other farther obligation that arose from the churches binding , there will be no matter of doubt , but as the governour of the church authoritatively by commission from christ , preacheth the word , administreth sacraments , and inflicts censures , so he may authoritatively too , absolve on earth , free from punishments in the church inflicted on sinners , without any necessity of interposing or medling ( save only indirectly , or as i said by way of consequence ) with that which is due from god to them in another world ; to which purpose 't is ordinarily observable in the canons of the councels , that à pace ecclesiae arceri , being driven from the peace of the church , is the expression of being excommunicated , and pacem dari , is to be received into communion again . in other places we find both together , communio pacis , communion of peace , all noting that , which excommunication deprived them of , to be the peace or favour , or pardon of the church peculiarly , and not gods peace , or pardon , or favour directly , but either by supposing the person fit to be so dealt with , to be formerly deprived by god of that , or by way of consequence accidentally , more surely fastning him under gods disfavour , if this wrought not on him the good desired effect of reformation . to all which , by way of corollary i shall adde , that the bare sect. 106 binding of the church ( abstracted from our contempt of , and perverse standing out against it ) cannot damn any which is not otherwise ( and if he were not thus bound ) in a damnable estate that is , hath not any real influence on his damnation ( save only to bind him farther to it , in case he doth not submit to it ) distinct from that which proceeds from his sin , upon which he is bound , and from his refractarinesse continued in , in despight of this censure , ( which no doubt may make his case more highly dangerous , as the word is the savour of death to them that beleeve not ) but is rather a means tending , as it is designed , to the saving of him , as in the next chapter shall appear . on the other side loosing on earth , or the absolution of the sect. 107 church shall not free any impenitent unreformed sinner , in foro coeli , i. e. obtain pardon for any that is not contrite , ( much lesse turn attrition into contrition , as the romanists , or a votum poenitentiae , a wishing we were penitent into penitence , as others dream ) but will rather be a means of damning him the deeper , of betraying him to , and hardning him in an impenitent estate , who is absolved , or freed from under that discipline before he be reform'd ; which therefore the church in pure charity to the man is bound not to do , but to continue him under the punishment till it produce the reformation . cap. v. sect. 1 for the third enquiry , the end or use to which this binding is designed , &c. there will not be so much occasion to enlarge ; 't is speedily stated by answering , that the whole end , aim , design in inflicting of publique church-censures , may be reduced to these three heads ; 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , for reformation of the offender : 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the repairing , or making up the honour of the church , which suffered by him : and 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that others may be warned by the example of his punishment , and not corrupted by example of his sin , but especially to reform those by these sharper methods , which no other calmer means of admonitions will work on , to cut off that member that balsams will not cure , or keep from gangrening , according to that of the writer of the answers ad orthodox : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , when by long-suffering offenders are not reformed , then excision to them which are not corrigible , is more useful then clemencie . for both those distant wayes , 1. of application of plaisters ; and 2. of excision , are the same physitians methods of preserving the whole , and proportionably to them the ministration of the word and sacraments are the churches first method , and when that fails to produce its effect , this other of censure is the second , ( and upon the good working of that , absolution ) wherein the governours of the church are truly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or co-workers with christ , to bring back sons unto god , as they are to beget them in the preaching of the word . sect. 2 to which purpose you may see and observe what the apostle constantly adds to his sentences of binding , or excommunication , or delivering up to satan , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 1 cor. 5.5 . the destruction of the flesh , that the spirit may be saved , &c. so of hymenaeus and alexander , 1 tim. 1.20 . i have delivered them up to satan , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that they may be disciplined , instructed , taught not to blaspheme , or resist contumaciously ; whence the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( which we render taught ) in a common notion , may perhaps be more critically taken in a notion peculiar to this purpose , by way of reference to the punishments amongst the jews . for of the four punishments put into esdra's hand by artaxerxes , esd . 7.26 . the second ( rendred by us banishment , but in heb. eradication , i. e. saith schindler , casting out of his inheritance ) is in the septuagint 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and so vulgarly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for discipline or punishment , but there peculiarly for distermination , and so the fitter to expresse this turning out of the church , this church-banishment , or distermination , so 2 thes . 3.14 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the end of excommunication is again , that he may be ashamed , that he may see himself alone , no company but the devil thought bad enough for him , and so be brought to sense and shame of his own vilenesse , which is the most necessary preparative to reformation ; and therefore to signifie it an act of mercy and charity , of all other the greatest , ( though under the shew of severity and wrath ) it follows in that place , v. 15 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , count him not an enemy , but admonish him as a brother ; and therefore mat. 18.18 . the doctrine of binding , &c. is used as a means of exemplifying that great evangelical truth , vers . 11. that christ came 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to save , rescue , deliver , reduce that which was lost , i. e. impenitent sinners , or those , that the soft ministery of the word would do no good on . for there being ( among others ) two principal meanes of sect. 3 continuing men in sin . 1. in some an opinion ; that christian profession , or the bare being christians ( however qualified , or demeaning themselves ) will stand them in stead , and prove sufficient ; or if not so , yet the creditablenesse of an unchristian impious life , so long as they may be allowed but the christian name ( mens generall design being to get the praise of men , not of god. ) 2. in others a mistaking sorrow or attrition , or any the most slight wish that they were penitent , for that repentance which christ cals for , and accepts and crowns : it follows hence , that unlesse men may be driven out of these falseholds , they will never set themselves aright in the way to that great work : and therefore proportionable to these two heads , are the two exercises of the power of the keyes designed ; the first to turn the christian professor , that will go on in sin , quite out of all society of christianity , not allowing him the priviledges of his christianity , the word , the sacraments , &c. unlesse he will walk worthy of so honourable a vocation , the second to set him his task of repentance , to prescribe him some 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 & probations , by which he shall be discerned whether he be in earnest contrite and willing to make his peace with heaven , to take any the most laborious course to approve himself to christ . the former of these in the act of excommunication , the latter in imposing the penance , upon which he shall be received again , & both together to bring sinners to repentance . sect. 4 when sinners by obstinacy provoke god , 't is his manner to withdraw his grace , to deliver them up to themselves , ( a worse kind of devil or satan ) that by this means they may see their former forlorne condition , their vilenesse first , and then their danger ; & so he uses to bring the secure , proud sinner to humility , to the use of prayer , & wrestling with god , to caise him out of this sad estate . and so the church in like manner by christs direction withdraws the benefits and priviledges of christians , from those whom it judges contumacious , delivers them up to plain barbarousnesse and heathenisme , deals with them as god did with nebuchad-nezzar , driving him from the court into the wildernesse , transforming him into the shape of a very beast ; & all to this end , that his understanding might by that means return to him , the field teach him lessons of piety , whom the palace could not . agreeable to which is that of pletho upon zoroaster , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . the revengefull devils or furies do gripe men to bring them off from sin , and set them on vertue . sect. 5 and then as afflictions are one of gods engines and stratagems to besiege , enter , and take the soul , ( when he flew them , they sought him , saith the psalmist ) so among the apostles were those corporal inflictions , diseases , &c. superadded on purpose to make the impression more violent , and to work more effectually on their hearts . sect. 6 the effectualnesse of which we may discern in one of the degrees of penitents in the ancient church , namely 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , whom we find weeping and howling in the church-porch , not permitted to come in , lying without , for them that enter'd to tread on in their passage , which was certainly a means to make them prize those benefits more dearly , which they saw themselves interdicted , and others partakers of , and withal to read them a lecture of their own unworthinesse , seeing themselves of the number of those dogs , and evil workers that are without . the second end which i named , was the repairing the honour sect. 7 and dignity of the church , which consisting in the purity of the lives of christian professors , is necessarily lost both in the opinion of god , and men ( especially those which are without ) by the impieties and unchristian actions of any which are called by christs name , which is therefore by the apostle said to be blasphemed or evil spoken of , when christians fall into any notorious sins , and then there is no way to recover the reputation of the church , and even of the christian religion , and in a kinde , of christ himself , but by expressing the wrath and displeasure of the church against those who walk th●s inordinately , and so proclaiming unto all , that christianity is not a doctrine ( as zozimus , and celsus , and julian mistook it ) of security or impunity to any sort of impenitents , but of strict , precise , exact purity , though some ungracious persons walk contrary to those prescriptions : this is the only tabula post naufragium , plank or means of relief , when the same and good name of the church is thus ship-wrackt , and so fit to be designed in the second place . a third gain and profit designed by these censures is the warning sect. 8 and admonishing of others ; not lest they should be polluted by presence among the profane , as they that toucht the unclean thing were polluted under the law , ( any farther then by the spreading , leprous quality of their example ) which is the comon errour of the proud fastidious pharisees of all ages , and is clearly confuted by st. paul , 1 cor. 5.10 . where the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not extended to heathen fornicators , which sure would be able to pollute by society , as much as christian sinners ) and by clemens or that ancient author under his name , constit . ap. l. 2. c. 14. who hath a notable place to fortifie against this mistake , speaking of those which ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) unmercifully affirm that men ought not to pollute themselves by accompanying with sinners , nor converse with them , ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) for such reasonings savour of men that know not god and his providence , of unreasonable judges , and untamed beasts . for they observe not that the communion with sinners that must be avoided , is not that of conversing with , but imitating of them , not speaking , but doing with them . sect. 9 but the design is to set a brand upon such sins , which otherwise might haply be thought imitable , and insensibly grow into fashion , and so infect , and pollute , were not men thus told of their uglinesse , shew'd their deformity , and fore-warn'd of their danger , which is sure another act of mercy to all easie , seducible spectators , to the church it selfe , and to him whose scandalous sins are by this means hindred from being damners of other men . sect. 10 and as the censures themselves , so the inexorablenesse , or at least , difficulty of some ages , ( of canons , of councils , and practice of churches ) in granting of absolution to penitents , that also hath been designed out of pure charity to help multiply their fruits of repentance , to set a value on gods ordinances , to quicken their zeal , to demonstrate their sincerity both to others , and to their own souls , each of which might perhaps be missing , if absolution were over-easily obtainable . sect. 11 all which the more it is weighed , ( how this institution of christs , ( besides that , as 't is so , it ought not to be neglected ) is an act of special christian charity in not suffering sin upon thy neighbour , but in any wise rebuking him , lev. 19.17 . ) the more reproachful wil it be to this age of ours , the more bitter pasquin , and lasting 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , when it shall be told in gath and askalon , that for some years the arts of some uncharitable men have so prevailed , that all exercise of this institution of christ hath been cast and kept out of this church of ours ; the first , i think , that is recorded since christs time to have continued any considerable space without liberty of using that power of the keyes in excommunication , left unto the church by christ . the lord be merciful to us in this matter . sect. 12 as for them who either look upon this in others ( or use it themselves ) as a matter of secular advantage , or accruement either of power or gain to the rulers of the church , and so as a carnal design or engine disguised in the shape of a spiritual institution , and on that ground either are willing by their calumnies to help rend it out of the hands of the church , or being themselves in place , either by passion , or mistake , or sloth betray it to the odium & censure of other men ( whose shortnes of discourse cannot separate the order from the person , or the abuse from the institution ) i shall suppose they will change their minds , & their practices , when i shal have given them one advertisment , which i may hope to do more effectually , not onely by putting them in mind of s. chrysostoms judgment , who in this very matter having resolv'd 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. that the sacerdotal dignity in pardoning and retaining of sins is very great , expresses that presently by this only way of probation , that a priest if he live never so well himself , if he be not accurately careful of other mens lives , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , he bears those wicked men ( which he reform'd not ) company to hell ; and often when he is not betrayed by his own , he perishes by others mens sins , if he have not done all things rightly , which may tend to their recovery , and in that , founds all the respect and obedience that st. paul requires to be paid to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but also , and especially if i present it to them in a breif paraphrase of one place of scripture , which by mistake and rash judgement , is wont to be produced against all exercise of power in church-men , but being rightly weighed , as it doth not take away the power which we onely plead for , that of exercising charity , of disciplining , reforming , i. e. doing the greatest good to those that are placed under us so will it teach every man ( to whom that power is entrusted to learn nothing but meeknesse and diligence , and all kinde of christian temper from the condition and peculiarity of this honour , and authority of his . the place is that known text mat. 20. i shal deduce it from sect. 13 the beginning of the sense , & lay it plain before you . v. 21. the mother of zebedees children ( having heard by her sons of the promise made to the disciples by christ , mat. 19.28 . that they should have the dignity of so many 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which among the jews , was a dignity next unto the regal ) petitions christ in the behalf of her two sons , whom she conceived favoured by him above all the rest , judging it by the expressions to them two , & s. peter ; and her petition was this ; that ( seeing in the equality of that dignity promised to all , there might be yet , nay if ( it were according to the old jewish pattern , where the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 belonged to judah and joseph ) must be some kinde of inequality , at least a precedence of some before others ) her sons that he had shewed such a speciall kindnesse to , might have that favour by him confer'd on them . jesus represses her demand by telling her , she is mistaken in the kinde of dignity , that should be instated upon his disciples , 't was not such a one as in any worldly respects would prove very desirable , but as a place of great burthen , so subject to great persecutions , and even death it self , of which indeed her sons should undoubtedly taste , as histories testifie they did . if this would not satisfie her , then let her know her importunity should gain nothing ; for * the disposing of any such honours , was to be according as god the father had determined it , and although all power were conferred upon the son by the father , yet there was smal hope that the son should thwart god●he ●he fathers destination in any such act of dignifying any . this was fully satisfactory to the woman , and therefore she ( nor her sons ) reply not ; but the rest of the disciples upon advertisement what had past , begin to mock the two brethren , and so there is another tempest raised which christ must also calm ; and therefore to this indignation of the disciples ( not now to the ambitious request of the mother , or brethren ) he accommodates an answer ; that they need not be offended at the ambition of those brethren , for if they had had their desires , they had been but smal gainers by i● ; for in christs kingdome preeminence signified ( or brought along with it ) no great secular felicity , ( such as was to be among heathen emperours ( the great ones ) and princes , that being under them , and over others , were served and benefited by their subjects , which is meant by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 v. 28. used their power in order to their own profits and pleasures , and pride , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , behaving themselves as lords and masters over so many servants , like those nehem. 5.15 . where the following word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is used ) but quite contrary , an office of burthen , and pains , and humility , and doing of service , ( as s. mark reads it more clearly , not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , chap. 10.43 . shall be your minister ) and he that will have that preeminence , must provide himself for that task , by the qualifications which are most agreeable to that , and count of that way both of acquiring and enjoying it , for otherwise it will not be had ; ( and upon these terms you need not envy them it ) as you may guesse by christ himself , whose kingdome in this world was of this nature , not administred in that way as might bring in splendour or profit to himself , but in acts of charity , ministring of all kinds of grace , enduring , and serving , and dying for his people , and not requiring that service , those offices from them , as other kings have done . this excludes not disciples of christ from power , ( for he sect. 14 regulates them by his own example , and no farther , and he , we know , was not onely as god , king of kings and lord of lords , but as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , had all power given unto him in heaven and in earth , and in this his state of condescension here , he was a master over his disciples ; and when he was called good master , although he asked , why he called him good ? yet the title of master he disclaims not , nay tels them clearly that they did well , who called him master , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , lord , joh. 13.13 . ) but shews the lot that was like to befal them , the same it did him , whose greatnes was exprest in humility , and charity , and patience , and offices of servitude ; and so the greater any of them should be , the greater portion of these should be expected from them , as the appendage of their greatnesse ; which consideration fully makes up the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or rational importance of the place , which was to be answer satisfactory , 1. to the ambition of the two brethren , by disabusing them ; 2. to the envy or indignation of the rest , by shewing , that preeminence was no fit object for any ones envy , but pity rather . as for the use of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 't wil be best rendred to lord it , sect. 15 to play the lord , and the importance of that , discerned by the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that follows v. 28. or if you wil by comparing it with 1 pet. 5. v. 3. where 't is explained by that which precedes in the same sense , ver . 2. by feeding , or governing , ( for so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , by force or violence , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to make gain , filthy , unlawful gain , of the flock , which is all one with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ( as in the gospel , heathen kings did over their people ) and contrary to that , is ruling them by perswasion , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , making them willing and ready to do , what they ought , and that by his own exemplary obedience , setting them patterns to transcribe , which certainly is the clergy mans duty , ( and best way of ruling , if it may possible prevaile ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , who must be no striker , no covetous person , titus 1.17 . and to the same purpose , 1 tim. 3.3 , 4 , 5. and so sure 2 cor. 1.24 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies imperious behaviour in any kinde , as there over mens faith , very contrary to meek , gentle perswasion , the method that s. paul and all followers of him ought to use , and i shall never excuse them if they doe not . sect. 16 all which i suppose not impertinent ( as to justifie the authority so ) to limit and regulate the use of that , and determine it to that one christian spiritual end , the reforming and winning , and saving of soules ; a thing of all other , the most contrary to oppressing or violating , invading or tyrannizing over them , in brief ( to them which have need of it ) the onely seasonable mercy and charity in the world , thus in any wise to reprove , and not hate or suffer sin upon my brother . sect. 17 for the other part of the 2. enquiry , who are the objects of these censures , subjected to the power of the keyes by christ , i answer , 1. negatively , that the supream magistrate in every kingdome is exempted from it , and not onely à posteriori , because the offering him up to shame and contumely ( which is the work of excommunication ) would be a certain means to expose him to the contempt of his subjects , and so be in danger to dissolve & shake the peace and setled government of a kingdom , ( which i suppose to have been the design of that pestilent romish heildebrandine or gregorian doctrine , that the subjects of an excommunicate prince were discharged from their allegiance , which was but a smal encreas of the former doctrin ( if that were supposed true ) of christs placing a power in the hands of the church to excommunicate princes ; for from the concession of that , the other would generally follow of its own accord , and need no new doctrin to help it forward , the universal distemper of mens passions being a sufficient encouragement to the many , to cast off allegiance to those persons which they conceive themselves taught by christ , and so by christianity appointed to despise ; ) but also à priori , because christ found the world disposed by his father , in a regular subjection of all men to the powers placed over them ( and those higher powers at the time of christs birth , as far as stories will help us to discern , were all regal or monarchical through the whole world ) and was so far from changing that course by any new law of his , that he laboured by all means possible , to settle and confirm it on that basis , and not so much as to accept , when it was offered him , the exercise of any sec●lar or civil power , but to submit himself , and consequently all his , and so all that can plead or pretend any title from him , ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. say the fathers ) to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the supream power in any kingdom . for the practice & opinion of the church to this matter , through all times , infinite testimonies might be alleadged . i shall refer the reader to david blondel in this book , de formulâ regnante christo , and not endeavour a further dis●roving of that doctrine which he thought more worthy of an exclamation in the language of saint athanasius , ad epist 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; who ever in the church or among christians , heard or taught , or learnt that gregorian doctrine ? what an hell was it which vomited it out ? i shall adde no more to the negative part , which being supposed , and to be remembred in that which follows . i answer , in the second place , positively , that the objects of this sect. 18 church-charity or church-censures are , every open , notorious offender , ( whose crimes come to our cognizance , whether by complaint of others , by notoriety of the action , or by his own confession ) that lives , and indulges himself in any grievous crime , any wilfull sin ; every such i say is to be bound by the church , when after admonition first lesse , then more publique , he continues refractory , unreformed , and not till then . the more shame for the easie denouncers of that censure , that either inflict it on every trivial commission , without consideration whether repented of or no ; or that use this soveraign recipe , this generos●m medicamentum , ( that , say artists , must not be cast away , either on the wanton or the desperate patient , but onely on those whom we see to want it , and hope it may doe some good on ) this strong physick , this last and most generous medicament so * unadvisedly and uncharitably , so for any other end , rather then reforming of prophane men . sect. 19 then for loosing , who is capable of that , is agreed in general , the greatest sinners , upon approbation of their repentance : as for novatus who denyed absolution to the lapsi , he himself was censur'd and punished for that severity , as you may see in the 8. can. of the nic. council , on which saith zonaras 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , he was cast out and anathematiz'd in a council at rome , cornelius being pope , and decius emperour , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , though he offended not in matter of faith , yet for his want of compassion and kindnesse to the brethren . but then , what degree of approbation will serve turn , what time of humiliation , what fruits and evidences of repentance may be thought sufficient to give capacity of this loosing ; the judgement of councils and churches have much varied in that particular , the * roman being anciently milder then any other churches ; and how much these latter ages have been more favourable to the guiltiest sons of the church , then the most mercifull of the first ages had learned to be , even those very councils that condemn'd the severity of novatus and the cathari , are able to testifie ; i will give you but an hint or two out of the canons of the council of nice , ( before quoted against novatus ) can. 11. the council speaking of them that fell in the time of licinius his tyranny , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without any violence , or plundring , or danger of either , the censure is upon true and unfained repentance , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , three years shall they continue among the audients ( i. e. saith zonaras , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) stand without the church in the porch so long , and onely partake in hearing the holy scriptures . then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( i. e. saith zonaras , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. ) for the space of seven years more they have leave to be admitted within the church , but to be behind a pillar , near the doore , and go out with the catechumeni . ten years already , you see , and yet farther , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , two years shall they joyn in prayer with the people , but without the oblation : i. e. saith zonaras , they shall not yet be vouchsafed the participation of the holy things , till these two years be over . this approbation of their repentance cost them , it seems , no lesse then 12. years . but then the same council speaking of others , that having sect. 21 made some profession of christian valour , like dogs returned to their vomit again , can 12. resolves , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , af●er the three years in the porch among the audients , they must be ten years at the pillar ; the seven years it seems are improved into ten , and t is probable the two years of communicating 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 still behinde , and so the probation fifteen years long . one●y the bishop had power left him of the remitting of this sect. 22 severity , if he saw them ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , by humility and tears , and patience , and almsdee●s , demonstrate their conversion to be sincere , not fained . and so alcimus to victorius the bishop , authoritatis vestrae est , errantium compunctione perspectâ severitatis ordinem temporare ; 't is the part of your authority , when you perceive the compunction of those that have sinned , to temper the order of severity , i. e. to receive him earlier into the church , epist . 16. that which might be added in this point out of the ancient sect. 23 canons , would be endlesse to relate , he that would see a particular description of the several degrees of these penitents , may have it very clearly set down in zozomens history , l. 7. c. 17. and i shall not so much as enquire what grounds our latter ages have had to remit so much of the ancient discipline , till at length it be crumbled and moultred away into a nothing , or a meer formality : what is amisse in it , i beseech god may be reform'd . i shall only add to this chapter , that there have beeen in the sect. 24 practice of the church , ( i say not grounded in those texts of the gospel ) two sorts of binding ; one temporary or penitential when the person confesses himself penitent , and desires the absolution of the church , at least when there is hope of repentance , in which case the custome hath been to impose for some set time the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , such works as are agreeable to that repentance , and proportioned to the former sin , & not to absolve til what is imposed be performed . this the nicene fathers expresse by this style , [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ] for whose penance the time is defined , and the season set , zonaras by ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) the space determined for the penance of those that had faln : and alcimus by propositis observationibus interim ab ecclesiâ sequestrari , to be appointed some observances , and in the mean time to be sequestred from the church : & notae excommunicationis indictio donec publicâ poenitentiae professione desuescant , setting a mark ( answerable to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in saint paul ) of excommunication upon him , till by publique profession of repentance he disuse his former course , a kinde of niddui , or temporary remotion ; the second absolute , & sine praefinito tempore , without any certain definition of time . when men are refractory , and give no hope of amendment , and that is a kind of alcimus's irrevocable anathema , the binding over for ever , perennis excommunicatio , turon . concil . 2. c. 20. paris . conc. 3. can . 5. or usque ad reformationem , for ever if they reform not . the former of these is sometimes , but not alwayes , an exclusion , or abscission from the church , ( but somtimes on the other side a command to frequent the prayers of the church , or the sacrament , every lords day for such a space , hath been the penance or discipline ) nor consequently is it a binding that man so , that his sin is not yet pardoned on earth , but t is designed for other uses , for satisfaction to the churches edification , &c. but they of the second sort are truly under that band , and cut off from the communion of the church and by no means admitted to the services of it . cap. vi. there is but one enquiry now behind , i. e. what is the real sect. 1 effect of binding and loosing , or what conjunction it hath with binding and loosing in heaven . which though it be the weightiest consideration of all the four , yet shall i have occasion to say least to it , and indeed only this , that a censure of the church is a venerable thing , not only casting a christian out of the church , wherein he is appointed to seek salvation , and of which as long as he is thought unworthy , he is uncapable of heaven ; but withall a superaddition to the band in heaven , by which that sin is made indissoluble before god , til● it be absolved on earth , or that absolution duly sought from the church ; christ having affirmed of him , that in this case his sins shall not be pardoned there ; as on the other side , that being by repentance return'd to that capacity , heaven shall return again to be his portion , and that pardon by the promise of christ become due to him . the plain reason of it is , the denunciation is irreversible , and sect. 2 indispensably universal , [ except you repent you shall all perish ] and the promise as infallible and immutable [ he that confesseth and forsaketh , shall have mercy . ] now the binding , if it be as it should be ( clave non errante ) supposeth the man impenitent and refractory , and so to continue till he use means to return to the peace of the church again ; and then without controversie , whosoever is so bound on earth , ( cast out of the church for an impenitent and refractorie , and continuing so ) is bound in heaven , cast out from all title to that by god also . to which purpose is that known ancient passage in tertullians apol. speaking of these censures . judicatur cum magno pondere ut apud certos de dei conspectu . summumque futuri judicii praejudicium est , si quis ita deliquerit , ut à communicatione orationis & conventus , & omnis sancti commercii relegetur . c. 39. the judgements of the church are exercised with great weight , as being among them that are certainly resolved that they are in the sight of god. and it is but a preparative pronouncing or passing of the future judgement , if any man offend so highly , that he be banish't from communication or partaking of prayer , of church-meetings , and all holy commerce . sect. 3 but on the other side , he that upon his repentance , and approbation of that to be sincere , is ( clave non errante , still ) let into the church again , is ipso facto supposed to have right , ( and by his absolution that right sealed to him visibly , and christs promise particular for it ) to heaven . sect. 4 now if it be demanded , whether a true repentant sinner once bound by the church be not presently loosed in heaven , i. e. pardoned and forgiven at the first minute of his repentance , without ( or before he receive ) absolution from the church ? i answer , that in case of publique or scandalous crimes , the reformation must be publique and notorious also . and to that purpose confession and satisfaction before the congregation , and him that bound , i. e. the governour of the church ( to repair the injury done to the former by the ill example , and to testifie the sincerity of the repentance to the latter ) is necessarily requir'd to the approving of this repentance even to god , without which non remittetur peccatum , there is no more possibility of loosing in heaven , then hope of absolution on earth . but on the sincere performance of this , as there is no doubt but god will have mercy , will loose in heaven , will justifie and pardon that ( such a ) penitent sinner ; so is the church-ruler on earth bound to loose him here below , to restore him to the church also , as soon as by his submission to his penance he approves himselfe to him to be such ; and though 't is possible he may be sincerely penitent in gods sight , before he appear so to the church , yet is he obliged to seek thus to approve himself to the church , if his case have come under her cognizance , or in case he desire to have any of that assurance which is to be had from the church , or by title to the promise in those texts . sect. 5 and yet this exercise of the keyes is not to be conceived so absolutely necessary , that none can be damned without that seal of damnation , or binding , or non-forgivenesse , nor again that none can be saved , or forgiven without the seal of remission ; for sure the neglect of the bishop in the first case , his not-performing his office of excision , is no way able to rescue the impenitent from the eternal guilt and punishment of his sins , but rather a means to leave him remedilesse unto it ( his binding being indeed such a remedy , if it be made use of ) and the bare want of the remission or absolution , so it be joyned with readiness to perform all that is preparative to it , and an hearty desire to be partaker of it , is in the merciful , gracious court of gods audience sure to be accepted , when there is no space or room for more . for the words of christ ( whatsoever you shall bind , &c. ) though they be universal , binding all in heaven that are bound on earth , yet are they not exclusive , so as none shall be bound in heaven , but such as are bound on earth , or in the church below . nor on the other side , [ whatsoever you shall loose on earth , shall be loosed in heaven . ] 't is [ whatsoever ye , that i ] but not [ whatsoever not ye , that i ] and consequently , this double affirmation of christ may be perfectly true ; whosoever stands bound here , stands bound there , and whosoever are absolved here , are absolved there ; and yet for all that , are many bound in heaven which are not bound in the church , & loosed in heaven which are not absolved by the church . and if the phrase used in saint john , [ whatsoever ye retained , it is retained ] seem to any to have an exclusive sense , thus , that what we absolve not here , we do retain ; and consequently , that whom we absolve not , god will not absolve . i answer , that this is a mistake , arising from the equivocalnesse of the word [ retain ] which in the greek 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( as we shewed ) signifies no more in this place then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or binding in the other gospels ; in which , because that intimates not any exclusive power , neither will it be reasonable that this shall . and so much for the fourth particular also . to which , before we part from it , it will not perhaps be unseasonable ( though i hope i shall not be obliged to justifie the truth of the relations ) to annex a passage or two out of the latter stories of the greek church , ( believed generally by them , & mentioned on affirmation of particular knowledge by some which have come from them to this place , & lived amongst us ) which will acquaint us with the awe , and signifie the opinion which it seems they have of the real efficacie of these censures of the church . it is related ( saith crucius in turco-graecia ) in the constantinopolitan histories , that the sultan mahomet among other things concerning the christian religion , asked the patriarch maxims , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 concerning excommunication of which he had heard 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that if the high priests , and priests of the christians should excommunicate any person upon just cause , the body of that man dissolves not into the earth , but remains entire and whole ; and when the sepulchre of any such is opened , they appear like drums or timbrels , and black , i. e. the body swell'd , but whole , and withal much discoloured : and that upon absolution the body is dissolved to dust . in the truth of which tradition the sultan desired to be confirmed by the patriarch , who upon search made , found ( saith he ) that a certain loose woman having defamed a former patriarch , genadius scholarius , was by him excommunicate , and so dyed . her sepulchre maximus caused to be opened , and ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , o the wonders of god , saith he ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , she was found as she was at the time of her buriall , only swell●a and black . this ( saith he ) was certified to the sultan , who sent some of his nobles to view it , which they did with admiration , and caused the corps to be sealed up in a coffin with the imperial seal , and returned at a set day then the patriarch opened it , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , officiated and read the prayer of absolution : whereupon the joynts of her hands and feet were immediately loosed . they sealed it up again , and returning after three dayes found all turn'd to dust . this they reported to the sultan , who wondred , and was astonished , and said , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that this religion and faith of the christians was wonderful and true . this same story is related again at large , l. 2. turco gr. § . 32. in the patriarchial history of emanuel malaxus in vulgar greek . a like example there is also of one arsenius , who dyed excommunicate , l. 2. § . 43. p. 151. and also of johannicius , a pseudo-patriarch , l. 2. p. 156. of whom , saith he , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the excommunicate was found hard and swelled as a drum or timbrel . the truth of the passages , i hope it will not be expected of me to assert or confirm ( nor can i any further then the fore-mentioned authority will bear ) i shal rather give the reader ●y conjecture how this perswasion became so general , & these stories so confid●ntly reported among them . it was , i suppose , from the observing , but not understanding in the gospel the phrases of binding and loosing , which not knowing to what they belong'd ( for the modern graecians are far from being very learned ) they may have applied them to the dissolving , or not dissolving of mens bodies in the earth , which they there expresse by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the word of the evangelist . if this be not it , i have no more to say of it , but that it was a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and now having taken this licence a little to expatiate , i shal sect. 6 enlarge ●y teather a little wider ; and having said thus much of this custome of excommunication among jews and christians , proceed yet farther , ex abundanti , and by way of appendix , shew the consent of others , even of heathen people in this matter , by that means ( if not to confirm , as by an instance , that ancient truth of clemens so oft repeated by him , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the grecians knowledge and solemn practices are generally stoln from the jews , yet ) to shew the opinion of other men , imbued with other principles of theologie , by which the design of this former treatise may with a rational man , who is not a divine , be somewhat established , i shall instance but in two particulars ( because it is but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or as ex abundanti , that i say any thing of it . ) the first , of the ancient grecians , as i find it mentioned by diod. si●ulus . bibl. 16. in the discourse of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the sacred war betwixt the phocenses and lacedaemonians on one side , and the thebans , &c. on the other ; of which there is mention in thucydides , but a full narration in diodorus siculus in the place fore-cited . from that one author in one page these few things may be learnt by way of story . 1. that on occasion of sacriledge or invasion of the rights of their gods , ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) as the plowing up a peice of sacred ground call'd cirrhaea ( which was the crime of the phocenses ) or the taking in war , and seizing on the like place call'd cadmea ( which was the lacedemonians fault ) the senate of the amphictyones upon complaint of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or recorders of holy things , did devote or anathematize even a whole country or region at once , as that of the lacedemonians , and that other of the phocenses . 2. that what was thus done , was confirm'd by the grecians generally , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. 3. that though sacriledge was the occasion of this devoting , yet was it not the immediate cause or crime wherein it was founded , but their not submitting to some former punishments , not paying the mulcts which had been inflicted on them by the same judges for that crime . the punishments of those first crimes are there mentioned to have been great summes of money laid on the offenders , ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) and upon the not paying of that , this devoting follows . 4. the nature of this punishment consisted , 1. in the shame that it brought upon the offenders , such as philomelus tels his phocenses , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 't is the part of unmanly persons not to lay it to heart , or consider it . 2. in the consequents of it , in that it would 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , bring danger and subversion to all their lives , & that in two respects . 1. in respect of god , to whose vengeance they were thus devoted , ( answerable to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 forementioned , added to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) in which respect it is , in order to the phocenses , called there 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , being consecrated or devoted . 2. in respect of men , to whose mischief also they were exposed , ( parallel to what we read of cain when he was cast out of gods presence ; any man , saith he , that meets me , will kill me ) and therefore in order to the spartans , it is call'd there 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , an exposing them to the common hatred of all men . 5. that for them that were under any such sentence , there was no way , but to obey the mulct that was formerly inflicted on them , i. e. to reform their contumacie , which they that were not able to do , or not willing , and therefore pretend they were not able ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) have no way left , but endeavour to nul the sentence , by proving it unjust , ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) by shewing that it was no fault , on which the former punishment , ( to which their contumacie had been exprest ) was inflicted . and to make good this plea , their best & indeed only way was that of force , viz. to make philomelus their general , & to provide him an army , which was accordingly done , and after some three or four prosperous sights on that side , the conclusion was , that at last agreeably to the cause , in the sight of his prosperous impiety he was routed and slain . and so you have a brief of the first passage . the other is that known one of the druids among the ancient galls , mentioned by caesar de bell. gal. l. 6. the summe of it is this . among the galls two onely sorts of men there are , saith he , qui in aliquo sunt numero & honore , which are of account and honour among them , the druids , and the equites , or noblemen , all the rest being pezants and slaves . the former of these are thus described , by their offices or imployments , illi rebus divinis intersunt , sacrificia publica & privata procurant , religiones interpretantur , ad hos magnus adolescentium numerus disciplinae causâ concurrit , magnóque ii sunt apud eos honore ; nam ferè de omnibus controversiis publicis privatisque constituunt , & si quid est admissum facinus , si caedes facta , de haereditate , de finibus controversia est , iidem decernunt , praemia poenasque constituunt : si quis aut privatus , aut populus , eorum decreto non steterit , sacrificiis interdicunt . haec poena apud eos est gravissima ; quibus ita est interdictum , ii numero impiorum ac sceleratorum habentur , ab iis omnes decedunt , aditum eorum sermonemque defugiunt , ne quid ex contagione incommodi accipiant , neque iis petentibus jus redditur , neque ullus honos communicatur . his omnibus druidibus praeest unus , &c. they are the men employed in all the service of god , perform the publike and private sacrifices , instruct the youth , and are honoured by them , are the judges in wel-nigh all both publique and private controversies ; if any outrage or murder be committed , any difficulty about bounds or inheritance , they decree and determine both rewards and punishments ; if any private person or people stand not to their decrees , they forbid him their sacrifices . this is of all other the most grievous punishment , they that are under this interdict , are accounted as impious and enormous persons , all men refuse their company , come not neer them , nor discourse with them , lest the contagion hurt them ; they receive no advantage by the lawes of the kingdom , nor are capable of any honour in it . of all these druids there is one prefect or president , &c. and it seems this custome and institution among them was conceived to have had its original from britain . disciplina in britanniâ reperta , atque inde in galliam translata esse existimatur , & nunc qui diligentiùs eam rem cognoscere volunt , plerunque illò discendi causâ proficiscuntur . this discipline was found in britain , and thence brought unto the galls , and they that are willing to have any exact knowledge of it , do now ordinarily go thither to learn it . the story being in it self thus clear and full , will have little need of my comment or observation on it ; all that i meant to do was to shew you the consent of other religions , & nations , and by that to conclude , that the heathens thought not that unreasonable , which now christ hath by standing law establisht in his church , and many that are called christians , are so willing to cast out of it . and so much so this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 also . cap. vii . sect. 1 and now by way of conclusion of this whole discourse , i shall add somewhat of the utility of this peice of discipline , if with another preparatory to it , it might by the governours of every church be carefully exercised : that other preparative which i mean , is that , if not apostolical , yet ecclesiastical institution of confirmation . the intention of which , and design of our church in it , every man sufficiently knows ( although it have been much and with very ill consequence of late neglected ) and therefore i shall not here insist on it ; and besides it hath been set down at large in * another discourse . this whole office of confirmation , and the necessary preparatives of it , that of the ministers catechising ( and throughly instructing all the youth of both sexes , and of all sorts within his cure , and explaining to the understanding of each , and laying home to his heart all the duties undertaken in his baptisme ) being solemnly premised , according to the rules and intention of our church , and all duties perform'd and observed by the curate , the child , and the bishop ( and none permitted to come to the lords table that hath not laudably past through this course ) would ( in the opinion of a goldy and learned man , who did much study the wayes of advancing piety and learning ) tend most probably to the keeping men at least within bounds of christian civility , from falling into enormous sins , which they had in their own persons so solemnly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 against . and therefore the use of that discipline , were extreamly to be wish't for , that it were revived in each christian common-wealth : and if it should be objected , that having been so long neglected in this , it cannot now possibly be recovered again , because of the vast number of those that have been either not at all , or else but formally , and perfunctorily , or without precedent preparation confirm'd : i answer , that that argument proves not the impossibility , but only difficulty of doing it , or if the difficulty be so great , as to advance into a kinde of moral impossibility , yet ought it not therefore to be left unattempted , ( we are required to endeavour the doing of things which appear morally impossible to be done ; because god may enable us to do that , which , till we try , we conceive impossible ; and though the not performing may not be damning , yet the not endeavouring may ) or if still the difficulty of an universal reformation in this kind , discourage even from attempting it , yet may it be reasonable and feacible for every pastour , now to begin with all the youth of his parish , which have not yet come to the lords supper , and keep them to this probation ; and so for ever hereafter constantly to continue ; and then , though the elder sort of this present age come not under this method , nor consequently this means of reformation ; yet perhaps the example of , and instructions bestowed on those under them , may work somewhat on them : and howsoever the stock of the succeeding age will now be wrought on , and so posterity be mended , though the present age cannot , which to every good christian will be worth considering . this course being thus taken for the planting , and rooting all good resolutions , and obtaining the blessing of god , upon the young and tender , ( by the prayers of the church , and the purport of christs promise of habenti dabitur ) together with the use of the sacrament of the lords supper , and attention to reading , and preaching of the word , might very probably hope to be successefull ; but then because possibly it may not , ( some christians will be perjur'd and impudent , rather then be chaste and conscientious , after all this ) therefore comes in the use and utility of the censures of the church , as a tabula post naufragium , a means of bringing him to repentance , that by the former means could not be kept innocent ; of reducing him by the rod , that the crook could not keep from straying . and if 't were thus used , if every one that fel after confirmation , were first admonisht by one , then if it served not , by two or three , and then upon refractarinesse , or indulgence in sin , delivered up to sathan , turn'd out of all christian communion without any partiality , or respect of persons , this would be as propable a means as the wit of man could invent , either by the fear and expectation of this censure to deter them , and prevent those enormities that are now so ordinary among christians , or else by shame , and other consequent inconveniences , as by causticks to work the cure . for it cannot but be observed , what force shame , and credit have on the minds of men . a sin that is gotten into some countenance or reputation , though it be destitute of all other lovelinesse or ability to tempt any , doth yet carry all before it without resistance ; the fear of shame makes men vicious , that otherwise are not inclined to it , and certainly the same means would be able to commend virtue to us : there is not that infinite natural aversation against all goodnes in the minds of men ( unlesse as that word signifies the passions , or carnal affections ) as that men would be very wicked to lose by it ; afflictio dabit intellectum , and such afflictions as these that fall upon the fame , are not the most easily supportable , and therefore may possibly help even a sensual man to some understanding ; and though the certain truth of this observation cannot otherwise be proved , but by our resolution to make experience of it ; yet seems it to me to have the authority and testimony of saint paul himself in these words , ( though usually , by those that are led by the sound of them , otherwise applyed ) 2 cor. 10.4 . the weapons of our warfare are not carnal , but mighty through god , ( or to god , or ( by an hebraisme very ordinary ) very or exceeding mighty ) to the pulling down of strong holds , &c. which words that they belong to the point in hand , will 1. be probable by the context , where the apostle speaks of proceeding against offenders , which he cals 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , being bold towards them , v. 1.2 . and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to revenge or punish disobedience , v. 6. and this according to the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or authority which the lord had given him for edification or instruction , and not for destruction ( which before i shewed you belong'd unto the power of censure ) & then he adds a caution to remove a prejudice , that unreformed sinners had against him , his letters were severe , and so he , when he was absent ; but far from all such severity , when he came amongst them , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; vile or tame , or unconsiderable , when he was among them , i. e. that he threatned to excommunicate , but when he came would not do it , which he cals 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , terrifying by letters , v. 9. and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , weighty or powerful letters , v. 10. i. e. severe and terrifying , which yet he threatens shall be equalled by his actions , when he comes among them , ver . 11. and so all along you see the businesse is about censures . and then 2. this sense of the words will be more then probable , by weighing the words themselves , wherein 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies confestly the apostles ministery , as it doth so in the onely other place , where 't is used in the new testament , 1 tim. 1.18 . that thou mightest war a good warfare , i. e. discharge the duty of thy ministery , as thou oughtest , according to the importance of the hebrew 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which is sometimes rendred 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , warfare , sometimes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ministery [ then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the weapons of that warfare ] are the means to discharge that duty in the ministery , of which nature though there be many more , preaching , catechizing , administration of sacraments confirmation , &c. yet the context , or antecedents , and consequents of this place belonging , as was shew'd to the businesse of censures , will restrain it in this place peculiarly to those . then , that these are not [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , carnal ] signifies that they are not weak , for so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 at every turn in these epistles signifies weaknesse , ( and from thence oftentimes the law , because it was so weak , so unable to give strength to any disciple of moses to perform it , as in the epistles to the romans and galatians 't is insisted on ) and so to omit more places of testimony , in the next precedent verse , though we walk in the flesh , i. e. though we are weak , as men , and have no power over you , yet as ministers , we are not , our ministery is with power , and therefore it follows , as a explication of [ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , not carnal ] but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , mighty , or powerful , through , or to god , or exceeding powerful . and wherein doth this mightinesse or power expresse it self ? why , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , we render it , pulling down of strong holds , & so it may literally be rendred , as the end of excommunication , pulling down of all fortresses , that maintain or secure a man in sin ; but more critically , the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies excommunication it self , both ver . 8. and chap. 13.10 . and generally in the canons of the councils , and then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , strong holds , may signifie all impenitent obdurate sinners , that will not otherwise be wrought upon , and are called , ver . 15. every high thing , that exalteth it self against the knowledge of god , i. e. against piety or christianity ; and so the words being thus interpreted in the retaile , and then put together again in the grosse , will run thus : [ the weapons of our warfare are not carnal , but mighty through god , to the pulling down of strong holds : ] i. e. the censures of the church are exceeding powerful , and that power consists in excommunicating pertinacious offenders . the truth of which observation , if not interpretation , will be undoubted to him that doth but remember , what this discourse hath so oft inculcated , that excommunication was delivering a man to satan , and a consequent of that in those first times , corporal inflictions , diseases , ( and sometime death it self ) which , if any humane thing , would most probably work upon one . onely it may be objected , that that consequent was peculiar to the apostles times , and is not now in use , and consequently that a great part of the power of ecclesiastical censures is now lost , and so now the weapons of our warfare may be carnal , our censures unsufficient to perform their task , to reduce impenitents , though theirs were not . to which i answer , by confessing the objection , that indeed it is so ; and very reasonable it should , christian princes having now taken the tuition of the church into their hands , and so those keen weapons in the spiritual hand not so necessary ; as you know the manna ceased to be rain'd from heaven , when the people were come into the promised land , flowing with milk and honey . onely i shall then reply , that therefore it is more then fit , that some means should be used , in case of any discernable defect , to interpose by way of supply , and adde the more then moral perswasive power of some other fit engine beside that of the censures of the church , especially in cases of enormous , infamous crimes , which may be done by the secular arm , in such cases ( when the ecclesiastical censures perswade not ) the impression of inflicting penalties , severe enough , as may be found expedient , usque ad reformationem , untill they make themselves capable ( by testimonies of amendment ) to receive release both from god and man ; that so by that means , as god supplyed the want of humane aid , by his extraordinary from heaven ; and when the secular magistrates discharged not their duty , exercised not the power given them to the purging of the church from rotten , vicious , prophane , incorrigible members , god gave this power to the apostles of inflicting diseases on malefactors ; so now that extraordinary power being withdrawn from the church , the magistrate should think himself most strictly obliged to perform his duty , for which if it should be required , that we produce the expresse commands or directions of christ and his apostles , or primitive presidents ; i answer , that will be unjust to require of us , 1. because in scripture times , there were other means to supply that want , the devils corporal inflictions on them that were delivered to him , and so any other might be spared : 2. because this duty naturally belongs to the magistrate , who alone hath ordinarily 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , compulsive jurisdiction , which as it was practised by the kings in the old testament , so was it not interdicted by christ in the new , but all left in that matter by him as he found it ; which being granted , it may be said , that as christ or the apostles give no directions for this , so they needed not to give any . 3. because both then , and in the primitive church , the secular power was not christian , and therefore the assistance could not be expected from them , which now most reasonably may , to awake , and hazen , and drive those that will not be allured and drawn , that so even in this world , there may be no peace , quiet rest , tranquility ; or security to the wicked . isa . 1.15 , 16 , 17 , 18. wash yee , make you clean , &c. the end . notes, typically marginal, from the original text notes for div a45430-e90 tim. 2.14 . * vid. con. of present use concern . change of church-gover pag. 16. notes for div a45430-e1780 pract. cat. l. 6. * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . theoph. in joh. 20. the words [ receive the holy ghost ▪ ] signifie , be you ready to receive him . a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . theoph. in mat. 16. in the sense of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 joh. 1.12 . for priv●lege , or right , or power . b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . theo. in joh. 20. the perfect gift of the holy ghost was distributed to them in the pentecost , a preparative only administred to them in that breathing . c 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. theoph. in matt. 16. p. 94. though 't were said only to peter [ i will give thee ] yet 't was given to all the apostles : when ? when he said , if you remit any mans sins , joh. 21. d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ chrys . in joh. 20. as a king that sends out rulers over provinces , gives them power to cast in person , and to let out ; so sending the apostles he endues them with this power . e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . theophyl . to all the apostles f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 phavor . & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ib. & so joh. 3.20 . he that doth evil cometh not to the light , lest his deeds should be reproved , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 [ discovered ] in our margent : and therefore 1 cor. 14.24 . when 't is said of the unbeliever , that he is convinced of all , &c. 't is added , v. 25. thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest . so ephes . 5.13 . all things that are reproved , or discovered , are made manifest by the light ; for whatsoever doth make manifest , is light . g 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . ph. h 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . phavor . i 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . k so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( which signifies both to propitiate and to cover ) is here to be rendred covering , and though the greek be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from the former sense of the word , yet being to denote a part of the ark in this place , it must be taken in the other sense of the hebrew , and rendred , as if it had been 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as 't is exod. 26.34 . and 30.6 . or as the hebrew 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 if it had been retained , would have imported . l in coll. magd. oxon. m bibl. num . 254. p. 57. n 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . iren. lib. 3. cap. 3. & successiones episcoporum quibus apostolicam quae in unoquoque loco est , ecclesiam tradiderunt , ib. lib. 4. cap. 63. o 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , iren. lib. 3. cap. 3. p solus clemens superstes , solus episcopi nomen retinuit , tum quia inter adjutores apostolorum solus ipse restabat , ●um quia jam invaluerat distinctio episcopi , & presbyteri , it a ut caeteris ecclesiae romanae presbyteris qui cum solo clemente essent , nomen illud non fuerit tributum . q ignatius 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ubique inculcat episcoporum supra presbyteros gradum eminentem . salmas . apar . ad l. de prim . pap. p. 55. r non esse ignatium tam certò scio quàm me haec scribere . ib. p. 58. non esse ignatium luce clarius est , &c. nemo mihi unquam persuadebit , &c. p. 56. ſ haec argumenta praestantissimo salmasio nuper probata gaudeo . blondel . apol. t grot. discuss . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p. 400. v annot. p. 277. euseb . l. 3. cap. 27. x quid enim fides , &c. con●erunt jam per baptismum armato ? si christiani 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 patientia est , quid novi jam accedit ex fide galealo ? y wal. messalin . z the same author in his chron. p. 43. affirms that he was by the apostles ordain'd bishop of jerusalem , the nineteenth year of tiberius , i. e. the very next year in his account after the death of christ . a hom. 86. in joh. apol. pro sent. hieron . b in psal . c sive baptizatorum confirmatio , sive poenitentium benedictio , sive ordinandorum consecratio . blond . apol. p. 57. & salmas . in appar . ad l. de prim. papae . d sive de eucharistiae confectione , sive de chrismatione , sive de ordinationibus sacris interpretari placeat . e 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , &c. chrys . in jo. 20. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . theoph. in joh. 20. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 &c. ib * vide eustath . & did. in illud iliad 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . & inscrip . isid . apud diodor. sic. l. 1 f vid. buxtorf . lex . rabb . p. 283. exc. gem. sanhedr . p. 147. g vetare , prohibere , illici●um statuere . ep. h●b . insti● . p. 57. h vid. buxtorf . rabb . 〈◊〉 . i vid. buxtorf . lex . rabb . p. 2465. p. 680. k edit . paris . p. 354. b. p. 148. l cap. 1. sec . 10. i● praef. m si stipendio conductus theologica docerem , nihil sec . ipsos ab officio , & muncre in hac parte alieni facerem . p●aes . n th. 1. excommunicationis nomen videtur ex 1 cor. 10. desumptum esse , atque amotionem significare à communione illâ , quae ibidem corpus christi nominatur . o sané nunc excommunicatio ab omnibus definitur exclusione è societate & communione fidelium . ib. p th. 2. est autem duplex fidelium societas , interna , sc . ●c spiritualis , externa seu visibilis ac politica . q th. 3. tantum verò inter utramque discrimen est , ut qui in alterutrâ continetur , non etiam comprehendatur in alterâ necessariò . nam ut membrum christi esse potest qui injuste ex visibili aliquâ ecclesiá ejectus est , aut inter infideles latere habitar●ve cogitur , ita qui in visibili c●tu num●rantur non omnes etiam membra viva sunt christi , ex quo sequitur discrepare res illas posse , quae uni nos conjungunt non alteri , & ab unâ nos abjungunt & non ab alterâ . r th. 4. membra quidem christi efficimu● , i. e. internae spiritual●que christi societati conjungimu ▪ per solam fidem , quae per charitatem est efficax , & ●âdem hâc per solam infidelitatem excidimus , pro●nde non potest nos huic insercre , aut câdem excludere , nisi qui fidem donare , eandemque nobis iterum au●erre potest . ſ th. 5. externae verò visibilisque ecclesiae conso●tes reddimur ejusdem fidei professione ejusdemque doctrinae approbatione , denique corundam sacramento●um usurpatione ; in quo tria haec insunt , in tantisper dum ei insunt , inter membra externi fidelium coelus computatur , etiamsi ad eternam spiritus & mentis communionem non pertingat . v though sacramentorum usurpatio , in proper speaking , suppose baptisme , which is one of those sacraments ; yet sacramentorum participatio , thes . 6. signifying only receiving the lords supper , i have reason to suppose it may do so here too , and therefore i put in this . u th. 6. ergo qui ex ecclesiae communione extern● ejicitur ( i. e. qui excommunicatur ) vel ab omnibus his●e tribus , vel à duobus , vel ab uno tantùm removetur , sed à duobus primis , nempe à confessione fidei , & à christianae doctrinae app●obatione ( sub qua volo verbi & doctrinae auditionem comprehendi ) repelli nullus debet , quin potiùs hùc invitandi & quavis ratione adducendi sunt omnes . quocirca relinquitur , ut qui excommunicatur , à solâ ( ex tribus commemoratis ) sacramento●um participatione prohibeatur . huic , utrùm inseparab●l●ter cohaereat privati commercii negatio , an separari possit , postea considerabitur . alias poenas non pertinere ad substantiam excommunicationis hujus certum est ▪ etenim possit eadem etiam non excommunicat●● infligi , & excommunicatis non infligi . x th. 7. malè pontificii propter hanc excommunicationem ( quam ipsi minore appellârunt , ac solâ sacramentorum negatione rectè definierunt ) aliam insuper addiderunt , quam majorem & anathema vocârunt : atque contra apertam scripturam interdictione templorum , privati , comercii , & actus cujusvis lici . i definierunt , quoniam apostolus 1 cor. 14. palàm ostendit neque ethnicos , neque alios quoslibet , à divini verbi auditione , lectione , gratiarū actionibus , ac precibus christianorū prohibites fuisse . y th. 8. ex dictis liquet excommunicationem nihil aliud esse , quàm publicam & solennem sacramentorum , p●aesertim coenae dominicae ( quam privatim apostolus communionem ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) appellat , ut de principio dictum fuit ) interdictionem , praeeunte seniorem cognitione : quo peccantes resipiscant , rursusque ad sacramentorum perceptionem admittantur . z th. 9. hìcjam o●itus quaestio , u●rum aliquis propter commissum peccatum aut vitam impurè actam , siquidem usurpare sacramenta cum cae●eris christianis cupiat , ab eorundem usu & perceptione sit r●●●vendus ? quaestio de ●o p●oponitur , qui candem fidem nobiscum profitetur , ecclesiae per baptismum insertus est , atque doctrinà ab ead●m non dissentit ( ut in th. 5. posuimus ) sed in solâ ●itâ & moribus errat . hoc ergo quaeritur , utrum in s. literis vel mandatum vel exemplū aliquod extet , quo tales jubeantur aut doceantur à sacramentis submoveri ? p. 369. p. 363. p. 357. p. 367. p. 369. p. 367. p. 368. p. 363. 1 cor. 5.12 . p. 407. a act. 3.26 . b finis hujusmodi disciplinae erat ut destituti ad tempus gratiá & privilegiis ecclesiae spiritualibus , humiliarentur ad salutem . p. 407. c doctrinae quaedam quibus imbuti cives obedientiam civitati negari , & contra principes summos , summasque potestates pugnare , idque jure posse , imo oporte●e arbitrantur . p. 101. d nam quod bellum civ●le in o●be christiano unquam extuit , quod ab 〈…〉 ortum atque alitum non fuerit ? p. 102. p. 190. p. 192. p. 371 372. e errant primò arminian . qui magistratus politico ecclesiasticum regimen subjectum esse docebant . p. 2467. f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . mosc . g instit . ep . he● . p. 55. h lexicon rab. p. 827. i dilherr . elect· l. 2. k ep. hebr. instit . p. 56. l instit . ep. he. p. 56. m exc. gem. sanhedr . c. 1. p. 149. n ep. heb. insti . p. 58. o 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , phavor . p 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 3. c. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 1. c. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . * rivet . grot. disc . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . pag. 475. buxt . ep. heb. instit . p. 55. * of consc . 8.34 . pag. 93. de rep . eccl. l. 5. c. 7. & 9. * he that is born of god , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , doth not commit sin , 1 joh. 3.9 . concil . eliber . can. 61. can. 47. * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . it is not mine to give , save to whom it is prepared , &c. p. 187 , 188 , 189 , &c. * hence avitus alcimus , ep. 61. to constantius the bishop , illud monere praesumo ne propter leves causas , & non ad deum , sed saeculum pertinentes , ne laici quidem , non dicam clerici , sanctâ communione priventur , quia nescit cujus dignitatis sit ipsa communio , qui non eam omni animositate sepositâ & cum magno dolore suspendit , & cum maximâ festinatione restituit . vid. can. 2. concil . aurel. 5. & leon. magn . ep. 89. taxing hilary for that fault . * vid. gro. in heb. p. 820. edit . rhodoman p. 425. l. 1. p. 73. p. 425. pag. 432. * vindic. of lit.