BRother Bastwicke , I had resolved for a time at least ( as I have done ) to have been silent in these controversies , though provoked not a little ▪ But now your two Books you lately sent me as also your late triumphing at Westminster , that the man in Friday-street had not yet answered your Booke , as was given out provoked me afresh in arenam descendere , to take them both to taske , and so Vna fidelia duos parietes . And if the perusall of them be not enough in lieu of thankes , I have returned you a compendious Answer ; wherein you have bound me by a double ingagement : the one , for the Cause ; the other , for my Person . But you will say , you have not named me in either of your two Books . 'T is true indeed . But give me leave to tell you , you have vellicated me , plucked me by the very beard . I will not say , as Joab tooke Amasa by the beard ; and , withall smote him in the fift rib . What ? Use a Brother so ? And a quondam-fellow-sufferer too ? Yea , & to take him so disgracefully by his white beard too , & that with a scurrilous Epithet , calling it * a great white ba●ket-hilted beard ? Parcius ista . {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , ( as said the old Poet ) pittying his white head , and his white chin . And the wise man saith , The beauty of old men is the gray head , yea a crowne of glory ▪ being found-in the way of righteousnesse . I remember when the G●●●es by force entred Rome-gates , where they found the grave Senators sitting in the gate in their senatorian robes , And their white staves in their hands , thinking thereby to strike some reverence into those harbarous Gaules , and one of them redely taking one of the Senators by his white beard , the good old Senator , ( though in that condition ) not brooking such an affront , struck the Gaul over the pate with his white rod ; though this cost him , and the rest their lives , the barbarians instantly falling a butchering of them . But for all your provocations throughout your Books , Brother , you shall not finde with me so much as a white staffe to lift up against you , though you charge us ( but how justly ) ▪ we have the sword in our hands . Nor doe I purpose to retort , or retaliate your little expected , and lesse deserved calumnies , lest I should therein be like unto you : but I shall answer you in the words of truth and sobernesse , and in the spirit of meeknesse and love .

But how comes it to passe , that my two fellow-sufferers , and my selfe , should fall at this odds ? Was it by any divine providence ominated or presaged , by your two standings on one Pillary , and mine alone in the other , that wee should now come upon one ▪ Theatre to become spectacles to the world , by mutuall digladiations , as if the one Pillary should contend with the other ? Or did the distance of the two Pillaries boad any such distance in our present judgements ? But yet , O! O , never be such a distance in our affections ! But , herein at least ever be we a threefold coard , not easily broken . But the will of the Lord be done , who is onely wise , and will cause all things to co-operate for good to them that love him .

But Brothers , we expected , that ( according to your own words , pag. 7. ) you would have acted the part of a Moderator between us . But instead thereof we find you a Judge , and that a severe one too ; but how justly , I leave to others to judge . For in your promised , or rather menaced Postscript , which ( to forestall your Readers with a prejudicate opinion of us ; and old piece of Rhetoricke , as that of Tertullus before Felix , telling him of Paul ; Wee have found this man a pestilent fellow , and a mover of sedition , &c. which he was not able to prove , his best rhetoricall argument being Calumnidre audacter , aliquid haerebit , Calumniate boldly , some thing will sticke ) you both prefix , and for surenesse , affix to your Booke ; you fasten upon us uncharitable dealing , fraud and jugglings of many of our Pastors and Ministers , as misleaders and troublers of Church and State , &c. all which * ( {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} ) hard and harsh termes , wee can no lesse then spread before the Lord the righteous Judge .

I now come to your first Booke .

And first for those two Scriptures which you face your frontispice withall , I desire it may appeare to all men in the conclusion , whether you or I have the better right to them , 2 Cor. 13. 8. and 1 Thes. 5. 21.

Pag. 6. Brother , that which you intreat of us , you shall finde of your Brother ; onely give us leave in your owne words to intreat you to lay aside all passion , and all vaine-glory , and bitternesse , which not onely this your Booke , but your threatned Postscript breaths out against us .

Pag. 7. You methodize and modell your Booke into two Questions : First , Concerning the Government of the Church , whether it be Presbyterian Dependent , or Presbyterian Independent : Secondly , Concerning gathering of Churches .

Now for the first of these , before wee come to your Arguments , give me leave to except against your Termes , Dependent and Independent , whereupon as upon a foundation you state your Question . And if the foundation be not sure , the superstructure cannot be secure . Now Brother , doe you set these two Termes , Dependent , and Independent , at such odds , as if there were a great gulfe betweene them , never to come together , and become one ? You hold of Dependent onely : we hold not onely of Independent , but Dependent also . I shall make this cleare : Your Church Dependent is so called in a two-fold relation : First , Because it depends for its forme of Government upon the lawes of civill States , and so ( as the Cha●●leon ) receives impressions of sundry formes , changeable according to the present condition of the Civill Power , whether Protestant , or Papist , Christian , or Antichristian ( as our Brother hath set forth ) so as by this meanes , Christs Church and Kingdome ; his Spouse , that woman clothed with the Sunne , and having on her head , a crowne of twelve starres , and the Moone under her feete , should her selfe be turned into the Moone , as being subject to continuall changes . Secondly , Because your Church Dependent , depends necessarily upon a combination of Presbyters of many Churches , as Councels , Synods , Assemblies , Classes , without whose counsell ( say you ) nothing is to be done in any particular Church , of which more hereafter

On the other side ; The Churches which you call Independent , are also Dependent . First , They are not otherwise Independent , then first , that they are not , nor ought ( in respect of Doctrine , Discipline , Worship , Church-Government ) to depend upon humane Lawes , Canons , Decrees , Customes ; but onely upon Christ and his Lawes ; as wherein they assert and hold forth Christs Kingly Office and Government over them ; and doe affirme , that to set up humane formes of worship and Church-Government , unto which the consciences and soules of Gods people must necessarily conforme and be subject , is a dethroning of the Lord Jesus Christ , and a denying him to be the onely King of his Church Secondly , Independent in this respect , because every particular visible Church , rightly constituted according to the Word of God , depends not directly and necessarily upon any other Church or Churches , as without whose jurisdiction ( call it Presbyterian , or what you will ) it may not exercise all that power , which Christ hath given to every particular Church , as touching all the Offices and Ordinances thereof , and that in as ample manner , as if there were besides that one , no other Churches in the World .

And yet secondly , This Church thus Independent , is also Dependent . For , as it depends absolutely upon Christ , as the onely Head of this Body ; so as it is a member-church of the Catholick , and a sister-church of all particular Churches , with which it makes up one body , and one Spouse of Christ her Head and Husband : so it hath a mutuall dependence upon all true Churches , for communion , for consociation , for consultation , for comfort , for support ; though alwayes saving and retaining to it selfe all those Church-priviledges , which by Christs Charter are peculiar to every particular Church , and body of Jesus Christ . And in case this particular Church doe any act of censure upon any , who thereby shall thinke himselfe wronged , and shall addresse himselfe to other Churches , by way of complaint , and they shall thereupon desire of that church an account of their proceedings therein , this church will not refuse , but as in Christian duty bound , will to those Churches render a reason of that , or any other their doings , if questioned , and lawfully required . And all this in a sweet and loving way , with meeknesse and feare , 1 Pet. 3. 15. so as none is debarred of any such appeale . Nor is any well constituted Church of Christ to be conceived so brutish , or so conceited of her selfe , as to thinke shee may not erre , or her selfe so wise , as in many difficult cases not to need the counsell of others , or so inflexible , as with the Stoicks , Sententiam mutare nunquam ; nullius rei poenitere ; never to change their minde or judgement , of nothing to repent , when convinced of an error . But what if one particular Church will not , after all due meanes used , ( which yet no rationall man can imagine will ever come to passe ) hearken to the unanimous judgement and counsell of the other Churches ? What is to be done ? Surely they may upon just cause withdraw communion from that Church , which , in that case , is the highest censure the Churches can proceed to . And if the party aggrieved complaine to the civill Magistrate , the Church being called is accountable to the power . Thus have I plainely , clearely , and fully , as I conceive , stated these two Termes Dependent and Independent : whereby is sufficiently cleared to the view of all unpartiall Judges , not possessed with prejudice , our Dependent Independency , or Independent Dependency , from your manner of stating .

And for your Simile ; wherein you propound it for better understanding ( as you say ) it halteth down-right of all foure , as being altogether Ab-simile , and Heterogeneous , of another nature . There is a vast disproportion between a civill Government , and Ecclesiasticall : the one established upon mans lawes , the other on Gods ; the one various , and variable , according to severall Civill States , Kingdomes , and Lawes : the other one and the same , ( or should be , if right ) in all the Churches of the Saints , having one Rule , one Law to walke by , immutable : And , Brother , for your paralleling of your many severall Congregations in one Citie , or one Division , or Hundred , or within such a Circuit , with a great Corporation , as of London , where is one Lord Major , and Aldermen and Common Councell , and so reducing so many Churches into one Corporation , as so many Companies making upone Citie : I suppose you meane not that one Provinciall , with his Diocesans , and Priests under them , should make up this Parallel . But this of necessitie you must doe , if you will have all the Congregations in their severall Divisions , or Weapontacks , to be governed by their severall Presbyteries respectively . Reason requires , that first you set up such Presbyters over every one of your Congregations , as may be for the greatest part of them good , pious , learned , orthodox : or otherwise , if the greater party be Malignant , and ill affected , prophane and haters of the power of Godlinesse , they will over-vote the good party ; and so what a hard yoake will you put upon the necks of all such , as be truly godly , when they shall be cast out by a malignant Parochiall Congregation ? and going to complaine to your Presbytery , they shall finde as cold comfort , as formerly they have done in the Prelates Consistory . But there will be a better care had of placing good Presbyters . But Brother , let us first see it , that so your Presbyterian Government may shew us a face the more amiable , and lesse formidable to all truly godly , and most conscientious men . But if you cannot doe this , whither shall the poore soules goe , which live under a prophane Presbyter , or one that admits all sorts tag rag to the Lords Table , with whom godly soules can no more converse , then with Heathen ; and much lesse at that holy Ordinance , where they must be made companions with such kinde of Saints , as Job would not set with the dogs of his flocke : And if any whose conscience is not so strong to digest such hard bits , as others of the common multitude are , who either see no difference at all between the precious and the vile ; ( but account all alike Saints at least , when but at the Sacrament ) or have such Sepulchre-wide throats , as they can swallow a Camell , when a tender and more narrow conscience is apt to be choaked with every Gnat : What shall this poore soule doe ? Doth he rather withdraw from the Ordinance , then he can endure to see it so prophaned , and so partake with the prophaners ? then he heares , A Schismaticke . Now if you have not a good Presbytery , where shall he goe to complaine ? He may goe and appeale higher , you will say . And what if the higher the worse ? Good Brother , either provide the people of the Land an honest godly Presbytery , that may be as so many Angels to gather out of Christs Kingdome every thing that offends : or else let there be a tender care of tender consciences , and some provision made for them , that they may not be scandalized , by being forced to be the companions of the scandalous . And therefore Brother , you that professe so much solicitous care to poore bodies , let some drops of your charity fall upon their soules . And at the least , and last extremity , call in that Postscript of yours , and suppresse it in the Presse , that it may never see the Sunne ; as wherein you proscribe all those , that are not of your Dependent Presbytery : for you tell us , it is to come forth a fortnight hence , in the which it will be proved , that it is the duty of all christian Magistrates , Parents , Masters of families , and all such as truly feare God , to yeeld their hand for the suppressing of heresies , and all novelties in Religion , if they really desire the glory of God , &c. And what you meane by your heresies and novelties in Religion , is obvious to all by this your Booke already come forth , Independency is heresie , and novelty in Religion , and what not , that nought is ? Now did ever proceed out of the mouth of a quondam-Martyr , and one newly brought out of a balefull prison , such a fiery breath as this ? Oh Brother , remember thy selfe , and repent ; and let the world know , that thou hast made a better use of afflictions , then so fiercely to run on in such a course , as to wreck the malignity of a prison upon thy best friends , the seed of whose love , so liberally sowne upon thee and thine , expected another-gates harvest , then nettles , bryars , and thornes .

But you bring the Scripture for you . Come on , Brother , let you and me try it out by the dint of this sword . And truly , I shall by the helpe of my God make no long worke of it . You spend above eleven sheets , wherein you have woven sundry long threaden Arguments , to measure out your Dependent Presbytery , as holding parallell with the line of Scripture . Now you must pardon me , if I shall assay ( according to an old Proverbe ) with one stroake of Phocions hatchet , to cut in two the long thread of your Alcibiadian fluent and luxuriant Rhetorications .

For answer . First , let me aske you a Question : Whether those many Congregations you so call , you doe not understand to be so many distinct , and particular intire Church-bodies , or Churches respectively . If they be , tell us , if each of these Churches be 〈◊〉 its prime and proper notion an intire Church , without or before it be united in such a Presbyterian Combination , and Government , as you speake of . And if so , whether it be de esse , or de bene esse , of the being , or onely well-being of each particular Church , so to be united , and combined into a Church-collective , of many Churches into one . If you say , it is of the being of a Church , to be yoaked with other Churches , as into one , then what being had that Church in Abrahams family , seeing there were then no other Churches in the world , but that ? And if that were extraordinary , ( as perhaps you will say ) then say I , when Churches are multiplied , and combined into one , whether is this Church collective Dependent , or Independent ? If Dependent , then not an entire Church , but subordinate unto , or depending upon some greater Assembly . But come we to the highest of all , a generall Counsell of all the Churches in the world : is this now , a Church Dependent , or Independent ? If Independent , then there may be a Church Independent in the world ; and so the first particular Church in the world , was no lesse an Independent Church , in reference to other Churches . And if all Churches in one Oecumenicall Councell , as one Church , be Dependent , then whereupon Dependent ? Or is it a Dependent on it selfe ? That were blasphemy to say it . Whereon then ? Surely on the Scripture or nothing . All Churches then are Dependent upon the Scripture necessarily : not so necessarily one Church upon another , whether particular or generall . Ergo , all particular Churches being not necessarily dependent one upon another , nor one upon many , but absolutely dependent upon the Scripture for their ultimate or finall resolutions , are no lesse Independent upon other Churches ; because all the Churches in the world put together , cannot of themselves give forth an infallible Oracle ; as to say , this wee command to be beleeved and observed . This is Antichrists voyce , Volumus & jubenius . The Church , or Churches may shew their reasons from Scripture , and labour to perswade , but cannot binde them upon faith or conscience ; this the Holy Ghost and Scripture can onely doe .

But I come briefly to your Arguments , whereby you would prove your Classicall Presbyterian Government , and so upward . The patterne hereof you take from the Christian Church at Jerusalem . Hereof many arguments , or rather words , and tantologies you multiply , and toyle your selfe and vex your Reader withall , which you might have reduced to one . It is in summe , this :

In Jerusalem were many Christian Congregations , and all these made but one Church , and so were governed by one Presbytery .

But that Church at Jerusalem , being the prime Apostolicke Church , is a patterne for all succeeding Churches :

Ergo , all Church-government ought to be regulated by that , and consequently by a Presbytery over many Congregations .

For as for your indefinite enumeration of those multitudes baptized by John Baptist , and by Christs Disciples , we take no notice of them , unlesse formed into a Church , or Churches : but following the expresse Scripture , the first formed Church wee finde in Act. 2. which though consisting of five thousand , yet it was one intire particular Church , and not Churches ; and they continued daily {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , with one accord in one place together , ( ver. 2. ) and in the Temple , ( ver. 44. 46. ) growing from a hundred and twenty ( Act. 1. 15. ) to three thousand more , ( Chap. 2. 41. ) and then in all five thousand ( Chap. 4. 4. ) and all these but one Church , which assembled together to heare the word in the Temple ; and though they wanted a convenient place so spacious , as wherein to breake bread , or receive the Lords Supper all together , so as they were constrained to sever themselves into divers companies , in severall private houses to communicate , yet this severing was not a dividing of the Church into so many distinct formall Churches , or Church-bodies , being but so many branches of one and the same particular Church ; which though you call so many Congregations , yet properly so many Churches they were not . And therefore you never read , The Churches at or in Jerusalem , but , The Church at Jerusalem . And this no Nationall Church neither , witnesse those Churches in Judea , Gal. 1. 22.

Whereupon I answer to your Argument ; and first to your Proposition . I deny that those Congregations you name , are so many Churches , properly so called , having their distinct Officers and members , united into one Church-body respectively . This I put you to prove . And without proving it , your 11 or 12 shee●… spent about this Argument prove to be meere wast paper . And for your Assumption , that the Church at Jerusalem , as being a prime Apostolicke Church , is therefore a patterne for all succeeding Churches , and therefore for a Classicall Presbytery over many Churches ▪ you must first prove your Proposition , as before , that there were many Churches in Jerusalem constituted in their distinct formes , and bodies . Secondly , it being no more , then one entire particular Church ( and not any Diocesan , or Provinciall Church , or the Presbytery thereof Classicall , ( as you would beare us in hand ) it is a patterne for all particular Churches in succeeding ages ; and yet ( by your favour ) not so perfect a patterne , as no Apostolicke Church besides it should also come in , to make up the patterne compleat . For we are necessarily to take all the Churches in the New Testament together , to make up one entire & perfect Church patterne . For in the Church at Jerusalem , we finde election of Officers , but we finde not expressed that part of Discipline ; for casting out of corrupt members , as in the Church of Corinth , and so in the rest . For the Churches were not brought forth to full perfection in one day . Their very constitution had a graduall growth . The Church at Jerusalem had not at first Deacons , till there was a necessitie ; and the largenesse of the Church required seven Deacons ; which is no patterne for every Church to have seven Deacons . The summe is , to make up a compleat patterne , not onely the Church at Jerusalem , but that of Corinth , of Ephesus , those of Gal●tia , that of Philippi , and the rest ; are to be conferred together , that each may cast in its shot to make up the full reckoning , that so what is not expressed in one , may be supplied by the rest , to make one entire platforme . For the Scripture consists of many Books , as so many members in one body ; one member cannot say to another , * I have no need of thee .

Againe , the Church at Jerusalem , if it must be a patterne for all other Churches , then in this , that all other Churches must be subject to some one Church , because ( Act. 15. ) things in question were there debated , and determined , and sent to other Churches to be observed . But for as much as that Church at that time in those things was infallibly guided by the Holy Ghost , wherewith the Apostles there were inspired , in which respect their resolutions were with Authoritie , It pleased the Holy Ghost and us , ( that which no particular Church since the Apostles could ever say ) it followeth that the Church then at Jerusalem remaines not in all things a patterne for other Churches ; for a patterne must be in all things imitable , and perfect .

Lastly , for Appeales , so much agitated , and pressed , I have said enough before , and elsewhere ( as in my Vindication ) to vindicate the right use of that in point of Church matters . And so I passe briefly from your first Question to your second ; which is concerning the manner of gathering of Churches , and admitting members and Officers : Viz :

Whether Ministers of the Gospel may , out of already congregated Assemblies of believers , select and choose the most principall of them into a Church-fellowship peculiar unto themselves , and admit of none into their societie , but such as shall enter in by a private covenant , and are allowed of by the consent and approbation of all the Congregation .

This is your generall stating of your Question ; and out of the wombe thereof , there doth issue a numerous brood , no lesse then six Queries , or if you will ( to usurpe your owne usuall expression ) so many sucking Questions , hanging at the dugs of their damme , your generall Question .

For answer to all in their order : But before I answer , let mee premise thus much : Brother , I well see ( and that without spectacles ) that among all those Independents whom you so familiarly hurle stones at , and cast up dust , yea durt in their faces , I am not the least object in your eye , as by many palpable passages in your Booke doth appeare . And therefore I shall crave leave , that I may have the favour to represent and personate all those my Brethren the Ministers , whom Giantlike you revile and challenge , and warre against under the name of Independents , as taking this take upon my selfe alone , in answering this your Question about gathering of Churches .

First then to your generall stating of the Question . You say , it concernes the manner of gathering . Do you imply here the lawfulnesse of the matter of gathering , by questioning onely the manner ? Your words may seeme to import so much . But I will not quarrell a word . I come to your Question , viz. Whether Ministers of the Gospel , &c. Surely if any , then Ministers of the Gospel may gather Churches : and that for two reasons ; first , because by the Gospel , & the Ministry thereof , Churches are gathered to Christ . Secondly , because we read , that the Apostles ▪ and other Ministers of the Gospel have by their Ministry gathered Churches .

Therefore no question , but if any , then Ministers of the Gospel may gather Churches to Christ .

I , but out of already congregated Assemblies of Believers , to select and choose the most principall of them . Indeed this is something to purpose . But tell me , Brother ▪ who is it ▪ that doth this ? You apply it to us all , and to me in particular . But I deny that I so doe , and I dare say the like for others . And can you prove all those Parishes , out of which Churches are so gathered , as you say , to be Assemblies of believers ? But they all professe to be Christians . True , so doe all Papists . Ergo , are all Popish Parishes , Assemblies of Believers ? So as if Ministers of the Gospel should by their preaching convert sundry Papists of severall Popish Parishes to become a Church of Christ , should they gather such a Church out of so many Assemblies of believers ?

But ( say you ) wee gather Churches out of Assemblies of believing Protestants . Why Brother , doe you not know this to be a time of Reformation ? And have we not all taken the solemne Covenant to reform our selves and others , according to the word of God ? And to endeavour to our power , to extirpate and roote out all Popery , Prelacy , Idolatry and Superstition out of this Kingdome ? And the time of this first gathering , was it not then , when the old service and ceremonies were in use ? And who hath gathered these Churches ? Wee . Who are we that you should thus charge us ? As Peter and John answered , Why looke yee so on us ? So , why doe yee impute that to us , which is onely to be attributed to the Gospel of the grace of God , whereby our very Protestants are wonne from their old superstitions , and will-worship , and from under the yoake of humane formes in the matters of Christs Kingdome ? So as when they heare , Christ is the onely King of his Kingdome , the onely Law-giver of his Church , and his Word the onely law and rule of all Church-government , and all this demonstrated in the Word of God , which they have taken a solemne Covenant in all things to follow : doe you reproach us , for being a people who are ready to obey Christ , so soone as wee heare of him , who alone is to be heard in all things , whatsoever he shall say unto us ?