A review of the true nature of schisme, with a vindication of the Congregationall churches in England, from the imputation thereof unjustly charged on them by Mr D. Cawdrey, preacher of the Word at Billing in Northampton-shire. / By John Owen D.D.

A VINDICATION OF THE TREATISE about the true nature of SCHISME . &c.

CHAP. 1.

THe present State of things in the Christian world , will on a slight consideration yeeld this account of controversies in Religion ; that when they are driven to such an issue , as by forraigne coincidences to be rēdered the interest of parties at variance , there is not any great successe to be obtained by a mannagement of thē , though with never so much evidence and conviction of truth . An answering of the profession that is on us , by a good and lawfull meanes , the paying of that homage and tribute we owe to the truth , the tendring of assistance to the safe-guarding of some weaker professours thereof , from the sophismes and violence of adversaries , is the most that in such a posture of things , the most sober writers of Controversies can well aime at .

The winning over of men to the truth we seeke to maintaine , where they have beene preingaged in an opposition unto it , without the alteration of the outward state of things , whence their engagements have insensibly sprung and risen , is not ordinarily to be expected . How farre I was from any such thoughts in the composing and publishing my Treatise of the nature of Schisme , I declared in sundry passages in the treatise its selfe . Though the thing contended about , whatsoever is pretended to the contrary , will not be found amongst the most important heads of our Religion , yet knowing how farre on sundry accounts the stated , fixed interest of severall sorts of men , ingageth them to abide by the principles they owne in reference thereunto ▪ I was so farre from hoping to see speedily any visible fruits of the efficacie of the truth I had mannaged , that I promised my selfe a vigorous opposition , untill some urgent providence , or time , altering the frame of mens spirits should make way for its acceptance . Freely I left it in the hand of him , whose truth , I have good security I had in weaknesse maintained , to dispose of it with its issues and events at his pleasure . I confesse knowing severall parties to be concerned in an opposition to it , I was not well able to conjecture from what hand the first assault of it would arise . Probability cast it on them , who looked on themselves in the nearest proximitie of advantage by the common notion of Schisme opposed . The truth is , I did apprehend my selfe not justly chargeable with want of charity , if I thought that opposition would arise from some other principles , than mere zeale for a supposed truth , and therefore tooke my aime in conjecturing at the prejudices that men might feare themselves and interests obnoxious unto by a reception and establishment of that notion of Schisme , which I had asserted . Mens contentednesse to make use of their quietnesse in reference to Popery , Socinianism , Arminianism , daily vented amongst us , unlesse it were in some declamatory expressions against their Toleration , which cost no more than they are worth , if shaken off by a speedy engagement against my treatise , confirmed such thoughts in mee . After therefore it had passed in the world for some season , and had found acceptance with many learned and godly persons , reports began to be raised about a designe for the refutation of it ; that so it should be dealt withall I heard was judged necessary at sundry conventions ; what particular hand it was likely the taske would fall upon , judging my selfe not concerned to know , I did not enquire . When I was informed how the disposall of the businesse did succeed , as I was not at all surprized in reference to the party in generall from which it did issue , so I did relieve my selfe under my fears , and loathing to be ingag'd in these contests by these ensuing considerations . 1. That I was fully perswaded that what I had written was for the substance of it the truth of God , and being concern'd in it only on truths account , If it could be demonstrated that the sentence I had asserted , was an unlawfull pretender thereunto , I should be delivered from paying any further respect or service to that , whereunto none at all was due . 2. That in the treatise its selfe so threatned , I had laid in provision against all contending about Words , Expressions , collaterall Assertions , deductions , positions , all and every thing , though true , that might be separated from the life or substance of the notion , or truth pleaded for . 3. That whereas the whole weight of the little pile turned on one single hing , and that visible & cōspicuous , capable of an ocular demonstration , as to its confirmation or refutation , I promised my selfe that any man who should undertake the demolishing of it , would be so farre from passing that by , and setting himselfe to the superstruction , that subsists in its single strength and vigour , that indeed finding that one thing necessary for him , he would solely attempt that , and therein rest . This I knew was evident to any considering person that should but view the treatise , that if that foundation were cast downe , the whole superstructure would fall with its owne weight : but if left standing , an hundred thousand volumes against the rest of the treatise could not in the least prejudice the cause undertaken to be mannaged in it . Men might indeed by such attempts manifest my weaknesse and want of skill , in making inferences and deductions from principles of Truth , wherein I am not concern'd , but the truth its selfe contended for , would still abide untouched .

4. Having expresly waved mans day , and judgement , I promised my selfe security from a disturbance by urging against me the authority of any , of old or late ; supposing that from the eviction of their severall interests , I had emancipated my my selfe from all subjection to their bare judgements in this cause . 5. Whereas I had confin'd my selfe to a bare defensative of some , not intending to cast others from the place , which in their owne apprehensions they do enjoy , ( unlesse it was the Roman party ) I had some expectations that peace-loving godly men , would not be troubled that an apparent immunity from a crime was without their prejudice or disadvantage manifested in behalfe of their brethren , nor much paine themselves to reinforce the charge accounted for . So that the bare notion of Schisme , and the nature of it abstracted from the consideration of persons , would come under debate . Indeed I questioned whether in that friendly composure of affections , which for sundry yeares hath been carrying on betweene sober and godly men of the Presbyterian and Congregationall judgement , any person of reall godlinesse would interest himselfe to blow the coale of dissension , and engage in new exasperations . I confesse I alwaies thought the plea of Cicero for Ligarius against Tubero most unreasonable ; namely , that if he had told ( as he calls it ) an honest and mercifull lye in his behalfe , yet it was not the part of a man to refell it , especially of one who was accused of the same crime : but yet I must needs say , a prompt readinesse to follow most questionable accusations against honest defēsatives , frō good men unjustly accused by others of the same crime , I did not expect . I added this also in my thoughts , that the facility of tendring a discourse to the purpose , on the businesse under consideration , was obviated by its being led out of the common rode , wherin common place supplies would be of litle use to any that should undertake it : not once suspecting that any man of learning and judgment would make a returne unto it out of vulgar discourses about ministers calling , Church government or the like . How farre these and the like considerations might be a releife unto my thoughts , in my feares of further controversiall ingagements , having the pressure of more business upō me than any one mā I know of my Calling in the whole nation , I leave it to the judgment of them who love truth and peace . But what litle confidence I ought in the present posture of the minds of men , to have placed in any or all of them , the discourse vnder Consideration hath instructed me : That any one thing hath fallen out according to my expectations and conjectures , but only its being a product of the men , of the perswasion owned therin , I am yet to seeke . The truth is I cannot blame my Adversary viis et modis to make good the opposition he is ingaged in ; it concernes him and his advisers beyond their interest in the appearing skirts of this Controversy . Perhaps also an adjudged necessity of indeavoring a disreputation to my person and writings , was one ingredient in the undertaking . If so , the whole frame was to be carried on by correspondent medium's . But let the principles and motives to this discourse be what they will , it is now made publick , there being a warmer zeale acting therin , then in carrying on some other thinges , expected from the same hand .

To what may seeme of importance in it , I shall with all ▪ possible plainesse give a returne . Had the Reverend Author of it thought good , to have kept within the bounds , by me fixed , and candidly debated the notion proposed , abstracting from the provocations of particular applications , I should most willingly have taken paines for a further clearing and manifesting of the truth contended about .

But the whole discourse wherewith I have now to do , is of another complexion , and the designe of it , of another tendency ; yea so mannaged sometimes , that I am ready to question whether it be the product and fruite of his spirit whose name it bears : for though he be an utter stranger to me , yet I have received such a character of him , as would raise mee to an expectation of any thing from him , rather then such a discourse .

The Reader will be able to perceive an account of these thoughts in the ensuing view of his Treatise .

1. I am without any provocation intended , and I hope given , reviled from one end of it to the other ; and called , partly in down right termes , partly by oblique intimations , whose reflections are not to be waved , Sathan , Atheist ; Sceptick , Donatist , Heretick , Schismaticke , Sectarie , Pharisee , &c. and the closure of the Book is merely an attempt to blast my reputation , whereof I shall give a speedy account .

2. The professed designe of the whole is to prove Independency , as he is pleased to call it , which what it is , he declares not , nor ( as he mannages the businesse ) do I know , to be a great Schisme , and that Independents , ( by whom it is full well knowne whom he intends ) are Schismaticks , Sectaries , the troublers of England . So that it were happy for the Nation , if they were out of it ; or discovering sanguinary thoughts in reference unto them ; and these kinds of discourses fill up the booke , almost from one end to the other .

3. No Christian care doth seeme to have been taken , nor good conscience exercised from the beginning to the ending , as to imputation of any thing unto me , or upon mee , that may serve to help on the designe in hand .

Hence I think it is repeated neare an hundred times , that I deny their Ministers to be Ministers , & their Churches to be Churches , that I deny all the reformed Churches in the world , but onely our owne ( as he calls them ) to be true Churches , all which is notoriously untrue , contrary to my knowne judgement , professedly declared on all occasions , contrary to expresse affirmations in the booke he undertakes to confute , and the whole designe of the booke its selfe . I cannot easily declare my surprizall on this account . What am I to expect from others , when such Reverend men as this Author , shall by the power of prejudice be carried beyond all bounds of moderation , and Christian tendernesse in offending ? I no way doubt but that Sathan hath his designe in this whole businesse . He knowes how apt we are to fixe on such provocations , and to contribute thereupon to the increase of our differences . Can he according to the course of things in the world , expect any other issue , but that in the necessary defensative I am put upon , I should not wave such reflexions and retortions on him , and them with whom I have to do , as present themselves with as faire pleas , and pretences unto me , as it is possible for me to judge , that the charges before mentioned ( I meane of Schisme , Heresie , and the like ) did unto him . For as to a returne of any thing in its owne nature false and untrue , as to matter of fact , to meet with that of the like kind wherewith I am entertained , I suppose the Divell himselfe was hopelesse to obtaine it . Is he not filled with envie to take notice in what love without dissimulation I walk with many of the Presbyterian judgment ? What Christian entercourse , and communion I have with them in England , Scotland , Holland , France , fearing that it may tend to the furtherance of peace & union among the Churches of Christ ? God assisting I shall deceive his expectations , and though I be called Schismatick , and Heretick a thousand times , it shall not weaken my love or esteeme , of , or towards any of the godly Ministers , or people of that way and judgment with whom I am acquainted , or have occasion of converse .

And for this Reverend Author himself , I shall not faile to pray , that none of the things , whereby he hath , I feare , administred advantage unto Satan to attempt the exasperations of the spirits of Brethren one against another , may ever be laid to his charge . For my owne part I professe in all sincerity , that such was my unhappinesse , or rather happinesse in the constant converse which in sundry places I have with Persons of the Presbyterian judgment , both of the English and Scottish Nation , utterly of another frame of spirit , then that which is now shewed , that untill I saw this treatise , I did not believe that there had remained in any one godly , sober , judicious person in England , such thoughts of heart in reference to our present differences , as are visible and legible therein : Tantaené animis coelestibus irae ?

I hope the Reverend Author will not be offended , if I make bold to tell him , that it will be no joy of heart to him one day , that he hath taken paines to cast oyle on those flames , which it is every ones duty to labour to extinguish .

But that the whole matter in difference may be the better stated and determined , I shall first passe through with the generall concernments of the book it selfe , and then consider the severall Chapters of it , as to any particulars in them that may seem to relate to the businesse in hand . It may possibly not a little conduce towards the removall of those obstructions unto peace and love , laid in our way by this Reverend Author , and to a clearer stating of the controversie ▪ pretended to be ventilated in his discourse , to discover and lay aside those mistakes of his , which being interwoven with the main discourse from the beginning to the end , seeme as principles to animate the whole , and to give it that life of trouble , whereof it is partaker . Some of them were , as absolutely considered , remarked before ; I shall now renew the mention of them , with respect to that influence which they have into the Argumentative part of the Treatise under consideration .

1. First then it is strenuously supposed all along , that I deny all , or any Churches in England , to be true Churches of Christ , except only the Churches gathered in the Congregationall way , and upon their principles : then that I deny all the reformed Churches beyond the Seas to be true Churches of Christ . This supposition being laid , as the foundation of the whole building , a confutation of my treatise is fixed thereon , a comparison is instituted betweene the Donatists and my selfe : Arguments are produced to prove their Churches to be true Churches , and their Ministers true Ministers . The charge of Schisme on this bottome is freely given out and asserted , the proofe of my Schismaticall separation from hence deduced , and many termes of reproach are returned as a suitable reply to the provocation of this opinion . How great a portion of a small treatise may easily be taken up with discourses relating to these heads , is easie to apprehend . Now lest all this paines should be found to be uselesse , and causlesly undergone , let us consider how the Reverend Author proves this to be my judgment . Doth he evince it from any thing deliver'd in that treatise he undertakes to confute ? doth he produce any other testimonies out of what I have spoken , deliver'd , or written else where , and on other occasions to make it good ? This I suppose he thought not of , but took it for granted , that either I was of that judgment , or it was fit I should be so , that the difference between us might be as great , as he desired to have it appeare to be .

Well to put an end to this controversie , seeing he would not believe , what I told the world of my thoughts herein in my book of Schisme , I now informe him again , that all thes surmises are fond & untrue . And truly for his own sake with that respect which is due to the reputation of Religion , I here humbly intreate him not to entertain what is here affirm'd with un-Christian surmizes , which the Apostle reckons amongst the works of the flesh , as though I were of another mind but durst not declare it , as more then on●● in some particulars he insinuates the state of things with me to be . But blessed be the God of my salvation , and of all my deliverances , I have yet liberty to declare the whole of my judgment in and about the things of his worship . Blessed be God , it is not as yet in the power of some men to bring in that their conceited happiness into England , which would in their thoughts accrew unto it , by my removall from my native soyle , with all others of my judgment and perswasion . We are yet at peace , and we trust that the Lord will deliver us from the hands of men , whose tender mercies are cruell . However be it known unto them that if it be the will of the Lord upon our manifold provocations to give us up to their disposall , who are pleased to compasse us with the ornaments of reproaches before mentioned , that so we might fall as a sacrifice to rage or violence , we shall through his assistance and presence with us , dare to professe the whole of that truth , and those waies of his , which he hath been pleased to revea● unto us .

And if on any other account this Reverend person suppose I may foster opinions and thoughts of mine owne and their waies which I dare not owne , let him at any time give me a command to waite upon him , and as I will freely and candidly answer to any enquiries he shall be pleased to make after my judgment , and apprehensions of these things , so he shall find that ( God assisting ) I dare owne , and will be ready to maintaine what I shall so deliver to him . It is a sufficient evidence that this reverend Author is an utter stranger to me , or he would scarce entertaine such surmizes of me as he doth . Shall I call in witnesses as to the particular under consideration ? one evidence by way of instance lies so neare at hand , that I cannot omit the producing of it : not above 14 daies before this treatise came to my hands , a learned Gentleman whom I had prevailed withall to answer in the Vespers of our Act , sent me his Questions by a Doctor of the Presbyterian judgment , a friend of his , and mine . The first Question was , as I remember , to this purpose : Utrū ministri Ecclesiae Anglicanae habeant validam ordinationem ; I told the Doctor , that since the Questions were to passe under my approbation , I must needs confesse my selfe scrupled at the limitation of the subject of the Question in that terme Ecclesia Anglicana , which would be found ambiguous and aequivocall in the disputation ; and therefore desired that he would rather supply it with Ecclesiarum reformatarum , or some other expression of like importance , but as to the thing it selfe aimed at , namely the assertion of the ministry of the Godly ministers in England , I told him and so now do the Reverend Author of this treatise , that I shall as willingly ingage in the defence of it , with the lawfulnesse of their Churches , as any man what ever . I have only in my treatise questioned the institution of a nationall Church , which this Author doth not undertake to maintaine , nor indeed hath the least reason so to do , for the asserting of true ministers and Churches in England ; I meane those of the Presbyterian way . What satisfaction now this Reverend Author shall judge it necessary for him to give me , for the publicke injury which voluntarily he hath done me , in particular for his attempt to expose me to the censure and displeasure of so many godly ministers and Churches as I owne in England , as a person denying their ministry , and Church station , I leave it to himselfe to consider . And by the declaration of this mistake how great a part of his book is waved as to my concernments therein , himsefe full well knows .

A second principle of like importance which he is pleased to make use of , as a thing granted by me , or at least which he assumes , as that which ought so to be , is that what ever the Presbyterian ministers and Churches be , I have separated from them , as have done all those whom he calls Independants . This is another fountaine out of which much bitter water flows . Hence we must needs be thought to condemne their ministry and Churches . The Brownists were our fathers , and the Anabaptists are our elder Brothers , we make an harlot of our mother , and are Schismaticks and Sectaries from one end of the book to the other . Quod erat demonstrandum . But doth not this Reverend Author know that this is wholly denyed by us ? Is it not disproved sufficiently in that very Treatise which he undertakes to answer ?

He grants , I suppose , that the separation he blames , must respect some union of Christs institution : for any other , we professe our selves unconcerned in its maintenance , or dissolution , as to the businesse in hand . Now wherein have we separated from them as to the breach of any such union ? For an individuall person to change from the constant participation of ordinances in one congregation , to do so in another , barely considered in its selfe , this Reverend Author holds to be no separation . However for my part , who am forced to beare all this wrath and storme , what hath he to lay to my charge ? I condemne not their Churches in generall , to be no Churches , nor any one that I am acquainted withall in particular . I never disturb'd , that I know of , the peace of any one of them , nor separated from them ; but having already received my punishment , I expect to heare my crime by the next returne .

3. He supposeth throughout that I deny not only the necessity of a successive ordination , but as farre as I can understand him , the lawfulnesse of it also . By ordination of Ministers many upon a mistake understand onely the imposition of hands that is used therein . Ordination of Ministers is one thing , and imposition of hands another , differing as whole and part ; Ordination in Scripture compriseth the whole Authoritative translation of a man from among the number of his brethren into the state of an officer in the Church . I suppose he doth not thinke that this is denied by mee , though he tels me with the same Christian candor , and tendernesse , which he exerciseth in every passage almost of his booke , of making my selfe a Minister , and I know not what ; I am , I blesse the Lord , extreamly remote from returning him any of his own coyne in satisfaction for this Love . For that part of it which consists in the imposition of hands by the Presbytery , ( where it may be obtained according to the mind of Christ . ) I am also very remote from mannaging any opposition unto it . I thinke it necessary by vertue of precept , and that to be continued in a way of succession . It is , I say , according to the mind of Christ , that he who is to be ordained unto office in any Church , receive imposition of hands from the Elders of that Church , if there be any therein . And this is to be done in a way of succession , that so the Churches may be perpetuated . That alone which I oppose is the denying of this successive ordination , through the Authority of Antichrist . Before the blessed and glorious Reformation , begun ●nd carried on by Zuinglius , Luther , Calvin , and others , there were , and had been two States of men in the world , professing the name of Christ , and the Gospell , as to the outward profession thereof . The one of them in glory , splendor , outward beauty , and order , calling themselves the Church , the only Church in the world , the Catholike Church ; being indeed , and in truth in that state wherein they so prided themselves the mother of harlots , the beast , with his false Prophet . The other party poore , despised , persecuted , generally esteemed and called Hereticks , Schismaticks , or as occasion gave advantage for their farther reproach , Waldenses , Albigenses , Lollards , and the like . As to the claime of a successive ordination down from the Apostles , I made bold to affirme , that I could not understand the validity of that successive ordination , as successive , which was derived downe unto us from , and by the first partie of men in the world .

This Reverend Authors reply hereunto , is like the rest of his discourse , pag. 118. He tels me , this casts dirt in the face of their Ministry , as do all their good friends the Sectaries , and that he hath much a doe to forbeare saying , The Lord rebuke thee . How he doth forbeare it , having so expressed the frame of his heart towards me , others will judge : the searcher of all hearts knowes , that I had no designe to cast dirt on him , or any other godly man's ministry in England . Might not another answer have been returned without this wrath : This is so , or it is not so , in reference to the ministry of this Nation . If it be not so , and they plead not their successive ordination from Rome , there is an end of this difference . If it be so , can Mr. C. hardly refraine from calling a man Sathan , for speaking the truth ? It is well if we know of what spirit we are .

But let us a little farther consider his answer in that place . He asketh first , Why may not this be a sufficient foundation for their Ministry , as well as for their Baptisme ? if it be so , & be so acknowledged , whence is that great provocation that arose from my enquiry after it : For my part I must tell him , that I judge their Baptisme good and valid , but to deale clearly with him , not on that foundation . I cannot believe , that that Idolater , murtherer , man of sin , had , since the dayes of his open Idolatry , persecution , and enmity to Christ , any authority more or lesse from the Lord Jesus committed to him , in or over his Churches . But he addes , secondly , That had they received their ordination from the woman flying into the wildernesse , the two witnesses , or Waldenses , it had been all one to mee , and my party ; for they had not their ordination from the people ( except some extraordinary cases ) but from a Presbytery , according to the institution of Christ . So then , ordination by a Presbytery , Is it seemes opposed by me and my party ; but I pray Sir , who told you so ? when , wherein , by what meanes have I opposed it ? I acknowledge my selfe of no party . I am sory so grave a Minister should suffer himselfe to be thus transported , that every answer , every reply , must be a reflection , and that without due observation of truth and love . That-those first reformers had their Ordination from the people , is acknowledged ; I have formerly evinced it by undeniable testimony . So that the proper succession of a Ministry amongst the Churches that are their off-spring , runs up no higher than that rise . Now the good Lord blesse them in their Ministry , and the successive ordination they enjoy , to bring forth more fruit in the earth to the praise of his glorious grace . But upon my disclaiming all thoughts of rejecting the ministry of all those , who yet hold their ordination on the accompt of its successive derivation from Rome , he cries out , egregiam verò laudem , and saies that yet I secretly derive their pedigree from Rome : well then he doth not so ; why then , what need these exclamations ? we are as to this matter wholly agreed ; nor shall I at present farther pursue his discourse in that place , it is almost totally composed and made up of scornefull revilings , reflections , and such other ingredients of the whole .

He frequently & very positively affirms without the least hesitation , that I have renounced my own ordination , & adds hereunto , that what ever else they pretend , unlesse they renounce their ordination , nothing will please me . that I condemn all other Churches in the world as no Churches ; but who I pray told him these things ? did he enquire so far after my mind in them , as without breach of charity to be able to make such positive and expresse assertions concerning them ? A good part of his book is taken up in the repetition of such things as these , drawing inferences and conclusions from the suppositions of them , and warming himselfe by them into a great contempt of my selfe and party , as he calls them . I am now necessitated to tell him , that all these things are false , and utterly , in part and in whole untrue , and that he is not able to prove any one of them . And whether this kind of dealing becomes a minister of the Gospell , a person professing Godlinesse , I leave it to himselfe to judge . For my owne part I must confesse that as yet I was never so dealt withall by any man , of what party soever , although it hath been my unhappinesse to provoke many of them . I do not doubt but that he will be both troubled and ashamed when he shall review these things . That whole Chapter , which he entitles , Independentisme is Donatisme , as to his application of it unto me , or any of my perswasion , is of the same importance , as I have sufficiently already evinced . I might instance in sundry other particulars , wherein he ventures without the least check or supposition , to charge me with what he pleaseth , that may serve the turn in hand ; so that it may serve to bring in , he and his party are Schismaticks , are Sectaries , have separated from the church of God , are the cause of all our evills and troubles , with the like tearmes of reproach , and hard censures , lying in a faire subserviency to a designe of widening the difference between us , and mutually exasperating the spirits of men , professing the Gospell of Jesus Christ , one against another , nothing almost comes amisse . His sticking upon by matters , diverting from the maine business in hand , answering Arguments by reflections , and the like , might also be remarked . One thing wherein he much rejoyceth , and fronts his book with the discovery he hath made of it , namely concerning my change of judgment as to the difference under present debate , which is the substance and designe of his appendix , must be particularly considered , and shall be , God assisting , in the next Chapter accordingly .

CHAP. 2. An Answer to the Appendix of Mr. C● . Charge .

THough perhaps impartiall men will be willing to give me an acquitment from the charge of altering my judgment in the matters of our present difference , upon the generall account of the copartnership with me of the most inquiring men in this generation , as to things of no lesse importance ; and though I might against this reverend brother and others of the same mind and perswasion with him , at present relieve my selfe sufficiently by a recrimination , in reference to their former Episcopall engagements , and sundry practices in the worship of God them attending , pleading in the meane time the generall issue of changing from error to truth , ( which that I have done as to any change I have really made , I am ready at any time to mainetaine to this Author ) yet it being so much insisted upon by him as it is , and the charge thereof in the instance given , accompanied with so many evill surmisings , and uncharitable reflections , looking like the fruits of another principle then that whereby we ought in the mannagement of our differences to be ruled , I shall give a more particular account of that , which hath yeilded him this great advantage . The sole instance insisted on by him , is a small treatise published long agoe by me , intitled , The duty of Pastors and People distinguished ; wherein I professe my selfe to be of the Presbyterian judgment . Excerpta out of that treatise , with animadversions and comparisons thereon , make up the appendix , which was judged necessary to be added to the book , to help on with the proofe that Independency is a great schisme : had it not been indeed needfull to cause the person to suffer , as well as the thing , some suppose this paines might have been spared . But I am not to prescribe to any , what way it is meet for them to proceed in , for the compassing of their ends aimed at . The best is , here is no new thing produced , but what the world hath long since taken notice of , and made of it the worst they can . Neither am I troubled that I have a necessity laid upon me to give an account of this whole matter . That little treatise was written by me in the yeare 1643 , and then printed , however it received the addition of a yeare in the date affixed to it by the printers , which for their owne advantage is a thing usuall with them . I was then a young man my selfe , about the age of 26. or 27. yeares . The controversie between Independencie and Presbytery was young also ; nor indeed by mee clearly understood , especially as stated on the Congregationall side . The conceptions delivered in the treatise were not ( as appeares in the issue ) suited to the opinion of the one party , nor of the other ; but were such as occurred to mine owne naked consideration of things , with relation to some differences that were then upheld in the place where I lived , only being unacquainted with the Congregationall way , I professed my selfe to owne the other party , not knowing but that my principles were suited to their judgement and profession ; having looked very little further into those affaires , then I was led by an opposition to Episcopacy & Ceremonies . Upon a review of what I had thē asserted , I found that my principles were far more suited to what is the judgment and practice of the congregationall men , then those of the Presbiterian . Only whereas I had not received any farther cleare information in these waies of the worship of God , which since I have been ingaged in , as was said , I professed my selfe of the Presbyterian judgment , in opposition to Democraticall confusion ; and indeed so I do still ; and so do all the congregationall men in England , that I am acquainted withall ▪ so that when I compare what then I wrote with my present judgment , I am scarce able to find the least difference between the one and the other ; only a misapplication of names and things by me , gives countenance to this charge . Indeed not long after , I set my selfe seriously to enquire into the controversies then warmly agitated in these nations . Of the congregationall way I was not acquainted with any one person , minister or other ; nor had I to my knowledg seen any more then one in my life . My acquaintance lay wholly with ministers , and people of the Presbyterian way . But sundry books being published on either side , I perused , and compared them with the Scripture , and one another , according as I received ability from God . After a generall view of them , as was my manner in other controverses , I fixed on one to take under peculiar consideration , and examination , which seemed most methodically , and strongly to maintaine that which was contrary as I thought to my present perswasion . This was Mr. Cotton's book of the keyes . The examination and confutation hereof , meerly for my owne particular satisfaction , with what diligence , and sincerity I was able , I ingag'd in . What progresse I made in that undertaking , I can manifest unto any , by the discourses on that subject , and animadversions on that book yet abiding by me . In the pursuit and management of this work , quite besides , and contrary to my expectation , at a time , and season wherein I could expect nothing on that account but ruine in this world , without the knowledge or advice of , or conference with any one person of that judgment , I was prevailed on to receive that and those principles , which I had thought to have set my selfe in an opposition unto . And indeed this way of impartiall examining all things by the word , comparing causes with causes , and things with things , laying aside all prejudicate respects unto persons , or present Traditions , is a course that I would admonish all to beware of , who would avoid the danger of being made independents . I cannot indeed deny , but that it is possible I was advantaged in the disquisition of the truth I had in hand , from my former imbracing of the principles laid down in the treatise insisted on ; now being by this means setled in the Truth , which I am ready to maintaine to this Reverend and learned Auhor , if he , or any other suppose they have any advantage hereby against me , as to my reputation , which alone is sought in such attempts as this : or if I am blameably liable to the charge of inconstancy , and inconsistency with my owne principles , which he thought meet to front his book withall , hereupon I shall not labour to devest him of his apprehension , having abundant cause to rejoice in the rich grace of a mercifull and tender father , that men seeking occasion to speake evill of so poor a worme , tossed up and down in the midst of innumerable temptations , I should be found to fix on that , which I know will be found my rejoicing in the day of the Lord Jesus .

I am necessitated to adde somewhat also to a surmise of this Reverend man , in reference to my Episcopall compliances in former daies , and strict observation of their canons . This indeed I should not have taken notice of , but that I find others besides this Author pleasing themselves with this apprehension , and endeavoring an advantage against the truth I professe thereby . How little some of my Adversaries are like to gaine , by branding this as a crime is known ; and I professe I know not the Conscience , that is exercised in this matter . But to deliver them once for all from involving themselves in the like unchristian procedure hereafter , let them now know what they might easily have known before ; namely , that this accusation is false , a plain calumny , a ly . As I was bred up from my infancy under the care of my father , who was a non-conformist all his daies , & a painfull labourer in the vineyard of the Lord ; so ever since I came to have any distinct knowledge of the things belonging to the worship of God , I have been fixed in judgment against that which I am calumniated withall ; which is notoriously known to all that have had any acquaintance with me ; what advantage this kind of proceeding is like to bring to his owne soule , or the cause which he mannageth , I leave to himselfe to judge .

Thus in generall ; to take a view of some particular passages in the Appendix destined to this good worke ; the first Section tries with much wit and Rhetorick to improve the pretended alteration of judgment to the blemishing of my Reputation ; affirming it to be from truth to error ; which as to my particular , so farre as it shall appeare I am cōcern'd , ( I am little moved with the bare affirmation of men , especially if induced to it by their interest . I desire him to let me know when and where , I may personally wait upon him , to be convinced of it : in the mean time so much for that Section : in the second , he declares what my judgment was in that treatise about the distance between Pastors and People , and of the extreams that some men on each hand run into : and I now tell him , that I am of the same mind still , so that that note hath little availed him . In the third he relates what I delivered , that a man not solemnly called to the office of the Ministry by any outward call , might do as to the preaching of the Gospell in a collapsed Church-state . unto this he makes sundry objections ; that my discourse is darke , not cleare , and the like ; but remembring that his businesse was not to confute that treatise also , but to prove from it my inconstancie , and inconsistencie with my selfe : he sayes , I am changed from what I then delivered : this is denied , I am punctually of the same judgment still : but he proves the contrary by a double argument . 1. Because I have renounced my ordination . 2. Because I thinke now , that not only in a compleat Church-state , but when no such thing can be charged , that gifts and consent of the people is enough to make a man a Preacher in office ; both untrue and false in fact . I professe I am astonished , to thinke with what frame of spirit , what neglect of all rules of truth and love this businesse is mannaged . In the fourth Section , He chargeth me to have delivered somewhat in that treatise about the personall indwelling of the Holy Ghost in believers , and my words to that purpose are quoted at large . What then ? am I changed in this also ? no , but that is an error in the judgment of all that be orthodox : but that is not the businesse in hand , but the Alteration of my judgment ; wherfore he makes a kind of exposition upon my words in that treatise , to shew that I was not then of the mind that I have now delivered my selfe to be of , in my book of Schisme ; but I could easily answer the weakenesse of his exceptions , and pretended expositions of my former assertions , and evidence my consistency in judgment with my selfe in this businesse ever since ; but this he saith is an error which he gathered out of my book of Schisme ; and some body hath sent him word from Oxford that I preached the same doctrine at St. Maries . I wish his informer had never more deceived him ; it is most true I have done so , and since printed at large what then I delivered , with sundry additions thereunto ; and if this Reverend Author shall think good to examine what I have published on that account , ( not in the way in this treatise proceeded in , which in due time will be abhorred of himself & all good men , but with candor , and a spirit of Christian ingenuity and meeknesse , ) I shall acknowledg my selfe obliged to him ; and in the mean time I desire him to be cautious of large expressions , concerning all the Orthodox , to oppose that opinion , seeing evidences of the contrary lie at hand in great plenty : and let him learne from hence how little his insulting in his book on this account is to be valued . Sec. the 5. he shews that I then proved the name of priests not to be proper , or to be ascribed to the ministers of the Gospell ; but that now ( as is supposed in scorne ) I call the ministers of their particular congregations parochiall priests ; untrue ! In the description of the Prelaticall Church I shewed what they esteemed and called parish ministers amongst them . I never called the Presbyterian ministers of particular Congregations parochiall priests . Love truth and peace ; these things ought not thus to be . Sec. the 6. He labours to find some difference in the tendency of severall expressions in that treatise , which is not at all to the purpose in hand , nor true as will appeare to any that shall read the treatise it selfe . In the 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. Sec : He takes here and there a sentence out of the treatise and examins it , interlacing his discourse with untrue reflections , surmizes and prognostications : and in particular p. the 238 & 239. But what doth all this availe him in reference to his designe in hand ? not only before , but even since his exceptions to the things then delivered , I am of the same mind that I was , without the least alteration . And in the viewing of what I had then asserted , I find nothing strange to me , but the sad discovery of what frame of spirit the charge proceeded from . Sec. 12. doth the whole worke ; there I acknowledge my selfe to be of the Presbyterian judgment , and not of the Independent or congregationall . Had this Reverend Author thought meet to have confined his charge to this one quotation , he had prevented much evill that spreads it selfe over the rest of his discourse , and yet have attained the utmost of what he can hope for , from the whole ; and hereof I have already given an account . But he will yet proceed , and Sec. 13. informe his Reader that , in that Treatise I aver , that two things are required in a teacher , as to formall ministeriall teaching . 1. Gifts from God , 2 Authority frō the Church : well ! what then ? I am of the same mind still : but now I cry down ordination by Presbytery , what , & is not this a great alteration and signe of inconstancy . Truly , Sir , there is more need of humiliation in your selfe , then triumphing against me ; for the assertion is most untrue , and your charge altogether groundlesse ; which I desire you would be satisfied in , and not to be led any more by evill surmises , to wrong mee , and your owne soule . He addes sect. 14. two cautions , which in that treatise I give to private Christians in the exercise of their gifts , and closeth the last of them with a Juvenile Epiphonema , divinely spoken , and like a true Presbyterian : and yet there is not one word in either of these cautions that I do not still own and allow ; which confirmes the unhappinesse of the charge . Of all that is substantiall in any thing that followes , I affirme the same , as to all that which is gone before . Onely as to the liberty to be allowed unto them which meet in private , who cannot in conscience joyne in the Celebration of publike ordinances , as they are performed amongst us , I confesse my selfe to be otherwise minded at present , than the words there quoted by this Author do expresse . But this is nothing to the difference between Presbytery and independency : and he that can glory , that in 14. yeares , he hath not altered or improved in his conception of some things , of no greater importance then that mentioned , shall not have me for his rivall . And this is the summe of M● . C. Appendix ; the discourse whereof being carried on with such a temper of spirit as it is , and suited to the advantage aimed at , by so many evill surmises , false suggestions , and uncharitable reflections , I am perswaded the taking of that paines , will one day be no joy of heart unto him .

CHAP. 3. A Review of the chargers Preface .

HIs first chapter consists for the most part , in a repetition of my words , or so much of the discourse of my first Chapter as he could wrest , by cutting off one , and another parcell of it from its coherence in the whole , with the interposure of glosses of his own , to serve him to make biting reflexions upōthem with whom he hath to deale . How unbecoming such a course of procedure is , for a person of his worth , gravity and profession , perhaps his {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , have by this time convinced him . If men have a mind to perpetuate controversies unto an endlesse , fruitlesse reciprocation of words and cavils , if to provoke to easie and facile retorsions , if to heighten and aggravate differences beyond any hope of reconciliation , they may do wel to deale after this manner with the writings of one another . Mr. C. knowes how easie it were to make his owne words , dresse him up in all those ornaments wherein he labours to make me appeare in the world , by such glosses , inversions , additions , and interpositions , as he is pleased to make use of ; but meliora speramus . Some particulars that seem to be of any importance to our businesse in hand , may be remarked as we passe through it : pag. 1. He tels us the Donatists had two principles : 1. that they were the onely Church of Christ in a corner of Africk , and left no Church in the world but their owne . 2. That none were truly baptized , or entred members of the Church of Christ , but by some Minister of their party . These Principles , he saies , are againe improved by men of another party : whom though yet he name not , yet it is evident whom he intends : and pag : 3. he requires my judgement of those principles .

Because I would not willingly be wanting in any thing that may tend to his satisfaction , though I have some reason to conjecture at my unhappinesse in respect of the event : I shall with all integrity give him my thoughts of the principles expresséd above .

1. Then , if they were considered in reference to the Donatists who owned them , I say they were wicked , corrupt , erroneous principles , tending to the disturbance of the communion of Saints , and everting all the rules of love , that our Lord Jesus Christ hath given to his disciples , and servants to observe : if he intend my judgment of them in reference to the Churches of England , which he calls independent , I am sorry that he should thinke he hath any reason to make this inquiry . I know not that man in the world who is lesse concerned in obteining Countenance to those principles then I am . Let them who are so ready on all occasions or provocations to cast abroad the solemne formes of reproach , Schismaticks , Sectaries , Hereticks , and the like , search their owne hearts , as to a conformity of spirit unto these principles . It is not what men say , but what men doe , that they shall be judged by . As the Donatists were not the first who in story were charged with Schisme , no more was their Schisme confined to Africk . The agreement of multitudes in any principles , makes it in its selfe not one whit better , and in effect worse . For my part I acknowledge the Churches in England , Scotland and France , Helvetia , the netherlands , Germany , Greece , Muscovia , &c. as far as I know of them , to be true Churches ; such for ought I know may be in Italy or Spaine ; and what pretence or colour this Reverend person hath to fix a contrary perswasion upon me , with so many odious imputations and reflections , of being one of the Restorers of all lost Churches , and the like , I professe I know not . These things will not be peace in the latter end ; shall the sword devour for ever ? I dare not suppose that he will aske why then do I separate from them ? he hath read my booke of Schisme , wherein I have undeniably proved , that I have separated from none of them , and I am loath to say , though I feare before the close of my discourse I shall be compelled to it , that this Reverend Author hath answered a matter before he understood it , & confuted a book , whose maine and chiefe designe he did not once apprehend . The rest of this chapter is composed of reflections upon me from my owne words wrested at his pleasure , and added to according to the purpose in hand , and the taking for granted unto that end that they are in the right , we in the wrong , that their Churches are true churches , and yet not esteemed so by me , that we have separated from those churches , with such like easie suppositions . He is troubled that I thought the mutuall chargings of each other with Schisme , between the Presbyterians , and Independents was as to its heat abated and ready to vanish : wherein he hath invincibly compelled me to acknowledge my mistake ; and I assure him I am heartily sorry that I was mistaken , it will not be some joy one day that I was so . He seems to be offended with my notion of Schisme , because if it be true , it will carry it almost out of the world , and blesse the churches with everlasting peace . He tells me that a learned Dr. said my book was one great Schisme , I hope that is but one Drs. opinion ; because being non-sence it is not fit it should be entertained by many . In the processe of his discourse he culls out sundry passages deliverd by me in reference to the great divisions and differences , that are in the world among men professing the name of Christ , and applies them to the difference between the Presbyterians and Independents , with many notable lashes in his way ; when they were very little in my thoughts , nor are the things spoken by me in any tolerable measure applicable to them . I suppose no rationall man will expect , that I should follow our Reverend Author in such waies and pathes as these ; it were easie in so doing to enter into an endlesse maze of words , to little purpose , and I have no mind to deale with him as he hath done by me , I like not the copy so well as to write by it ; so his first chapter is discussed , and forgiven .

CHAP. 4. Of the nature of schisme .

THe second Chapter of my booke , whose examination this Author undertakes in the second of his , containing the foundation of many inferences that ensue , and in particular of that description of Schisme which he intends to oppose , it might have been expected , that he should not have culled out passages at his pleasure to descant upon , but either have transcribed the whole , or at least under one view have laid downe clearly what I proposed to confirmation , that the state of the controversie being rightly formed , all might understand , what we say , and whereof we do affirme : but he thought better of another way of procedure , which I am now bound to allow him in ; the reason whereof he knowes , and other men may conjecture .

The first words he fixes on are the first of the Chapter . The thing whereof we treat being a disorder in the instituted worship of God ; whereunto he replyes , It is an ill signe or omen , to stumble at the threshold in going out : these words are ambiguous , and may have a double sence , either that schisme is to be found in matter of instituted worship onely , or onely in the differences made in the time of celebrating instituted worship , and neither of these is yet true , or yet proved , and so a mere begging of the thing in question : for saith he , Schisme may be in , and about other matter besides instituted worship .

What measure I am to expect for the future from this entrance or beginning , is not hard to conjecture . The truth is , the Reverend Author understood me not at all , in what I affirmed : I say not , that Schisme in the Church is either about instituted worship , or onely in the time of worship , but that the thing I treat of , is a disorder in the instituted worship of God , and so it is , if the being , and constitution of any Church be a part of God's worship : but when men are given to disputing , they think it incumbent on them to question every word and expression , that may possibly give them an advantage : but we must , now we are engaged , take all in good part as it comes . Having nextly granted my request of standing to the sole determination of Scripture in the controversie about the nature of schisme : he insists on the Scripture use and notion of the word , according to what I had proposed : only in the metaphoricall sense of the word , as applyed unto civill and politicall bodies , he endeavours to make it appeare , that it doth not only denote the difference and division that falls among them in judgement , but their secession also into parties ; which though he proves not from any of the instances produced , yet because he may not trouble himselfe any further in the like kind of needlesse labour ; I do here informe him that if he suppose that I deny that to be a Schisme , where there is a separation , and that because there is a separation , as though schisme were in its whole nature exclusive of all separation , and lost its being when separation ensued , he hath taken my mind as rightly , as he hath done the whole designe of my booke , and my sense in his first animadversions on this Chapter . But yet because this is not proved , I shall desire him not to make use of it for the future as though it were so . The first place urged is that of John 7. 43. There was a schisme among the people : it is not pretended that here was any separation : Acts 14. 4. the multitude of the city was divided , that is , in their judgment about the Apostles and their doctrine : but not only so , for {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , is spoken of them , which expresses their separation into parties : what weight this new criticisme is like to finde with others , I know not , for my part I know the words inforce not the thing aymed at ; and the utmost that seemes to be intended by that expression , is the siding of the multitude , some with one , some with another , whilst they were all in a publique commotion , nor doth the context require any more . The same is the case , Acts 23. 7. where the Sadduces and Pharisees were divided about Paul , whilst abiding in the place where the Sanedrim sate , being divided into parties long before : and in the testimony cited in my margent for the use of the word in other Authors , the Author makes even that {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , to stand in opposition , only to {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} : nor was it any more . There was not among the people of Rome , such a separation as to break up the Corporation , or to divide the Government , as is known from the story . The place of his owne producing , Acts 19. 9. proves indeed that then and there , there was a separation , but as the Author confesses in the margent , the word there used to expresse it hath no relation to {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} . Applied to Ecclesiasticall things , the Reverend Author confesses with me , that the word is onely used in the first Epistle to the Corinthians 1 Cor. 19. ch. 11. 18. and therefore that from thence the proper use and importance of it is to be learned . Having laid downe the use of the word to denote difference of mind and judgment , with troubles ensuing thereupon , amongst men met in some one assembly about the compassing of a common end and designe . I proceed to the particular accommodation of it , to Church-rents and schisme in that Solitary instance given of it in the church of Corinth : What saies our Authour hereunto ? Sayes he , Pag. 26. this is a fore-stalling the readers judgement , by a meer begging of the thing in question : as it hath in part been proved from the Scripture its selfe , where it is used for separation into parties , in the politicall use of the word ; why it may not so be used in the ecclesiasticall sense , I see no reason : but if this be the way of begging the Question , I confesse I know not what course to take to prove what I intend . Such words are used sometimes in warm disputes causelessely ; it were well they were placed where there is some pretence for them ; Certainly they will not serve every turne . Before I asserted the use of the word , I instanced in all the places where it is used , and evinced the sense of it from them ? if this be begging , it is not that lazy trade of begging , which some use ; but such as a man had as good professedly worke as follow . How well he hath disproved this sense of the word from Scripture we have seen , I am not concerned in his seeing no reason why it may not be used in the ecclesiasticall sense , according to his conception , my enquiry was how it was used , not how it might be used in this Reverend Authors judgment . And this is the substance of all that is offered to overthrow that principle , which if it abide and stand , he must needs confesse all his following pains to be to no purpose . He sees no reason but it may be as he saies .

After the declaration of some such suspitions of his , as we are now wonted unto , and which we cannot deny him the liberty of expressing , though I professe he do it unto my injurie , he saies , this is the way on the one hand to free all church-separation from schisme , and on the other to make all particular churches more or lesse inschismaticall : well , the first is denyed ; what is offer'd for the confirmation of the second ? saith he , what one congregation almost is there in the world , where there are not differences of judgment whence ensue many troubles about the compassing of one common end and designe ; I doubt whether his owne be free therefore . If my testimony may remove his scruple , I assure him through the grace of God , hitherto it hath been so , and I hope it is so with multitudes of other Churches , those with whome it is otherwise , it will appear at last to be more or lesse blameable on the account of Schisme .

Omitting my farther explication of what I had proposed , he passes unto p. 27. of my book , and thence transcribes these words : they had differences among themselves about unnecessary things , on these they engaged into disputes and sidings even in the solemne assemblies , probably much vaine janglings , alienation of affections , exasperations of spirit , with a neglect of due offices of love ensued hereupon , whereunto he subjoines , that the Apostle charges this upon them is true , but was that all ? were there not divisions into parties as well as in judgments ? we shall consider that ere long , But I am sorry he hath waved this proper place of the consideration of this important assertion ; the truth is , hic pes fig●ndus , if he remove not this position , he labours , in vain for the future . I desire also to know what he intends by divisions into parties ; if he intend that some were of one party , some of another , in these divisions and differences , it is granted : there can-be no difference in judgment amongst men , but they must on that account be divided into parties : but if he intend thereby , that they divided into severall churches , assemblies , or congregations , any of them setting up new churches on a new account , or separating from the publick assemblies of the church whereof they were , and that their so doing is reproved by the Apostle under the name of Schisme ; then I tell him that this is that indeed whose proofe is incumbent on him . Faile he herein , the whole foundation of my discourse continues firme and unshaken ; the truth is , I cannot meet with any one attempt to prove this , which alone was to be proved , if he intended that I should be any farther concerned in his discourse , then onely to find my selfe revil'd and abused .

Passing over what I produce to give light and evidence unto my assertion , he proceeds to the consideration of the observations and inferences I make upon it . p. 29. and onward .

The first he insists upon is , that the thing mentioned is entirely in one Church , amongst the members of one particular society : no mention is made of one church divided against another , or separated from another .

To this he replies 1. that the church of Corinth , was a collective church , made up of many congregations , and that I my selfe confesse they had solemne assemhlies , not one assembly onely ; that I beg the Question by taking it for one single congregation . But I suppose one particular congregation may have more then one solemne assembly , even as many , as are the times , wherein they solemnly assemble .

2. I supposed , I had proved that it was only one congregation , that used to assemble in one place , that the Apostle charged this crime upon ; and that this Reverend Author was pleased to overlook what was produced to that purpose , I am not to be blamed . 3. Here is another discovery , that this Reverend person never yet clearly understood the designe of my treatise , nor the principles I proceed upon . Doth he think it is any thing to my present businesse , whither the church of Corinth were such a church as Presbyterians suppose it to be , or such a one as the Independents affirme it ? whilst all ackowledge it to be one church , be that particular church of what kind it will ; if the Schisme rebuked by the Apostle consisted in division in it , and not in separation from it as such , I have evinced all that I intended by the Observation under consideration . Yet this he againe persues , and tells me , that there were more particular churches in and about Corinth , as that at Cenchrea , and that their differences were not confined to the verge of one church ( for there were differences abroad out of the Church ) and saies , that at unawares I confess that they disputed from house to house , and in the publick assemblies : but I will assure the Reverend Author I was aware of what I said : Is it possible he should suppose that by the verge of one Church I intended the meeting place , and the assembly therein ? was it at all incumbent on me , to prove that they did not manage their differences in private , as well as in publick ? is it likely any such thing should be ? did I deny that they sided and made parties about their divisions and differences ? is it any thing to me , or to any thing I affirme , how , where , and when , they managed their disputes , and debated their controversies ? it is true there is mention of a church at Cenchrea , but is there any mention that that church made any separation from the church of Corinth ? or that the differences mention'd were between the members of these severall churches ? is it any thing to my present designe , though there were 20 particular congregations in Corinth , supposing that on any consideration they were one Church ? I assure you Sr. I am more troubled with your not understanding the business and designe I mannage , then I am with all your reviling termes , you have laden me withall .

Once for all ; unlesse you prove that there was a separation frō that Church of Corinth ( be it of what constitution it may by any be supposed ) as such , into another church , and that this is reproved by the Apostle under the name of Schisme , you speak not one word to invalidate the principle by me laid downe : and for what he addes ; that for what I say there was no one church divided against another , or separated from another , is assumed , but not proved unlesse by a negative , which is invallid ; he wrests my words : I say not , there was no such thing , but that there was no mention of any such thing : for though it be as cleare as the noone day , that indeed there was no such thing , it sufficeth my purpose that there was no mention of any such thing , and therefore no such thing reproved under the name of Schisme . With this one observation , I might well dismisse the whole ensuing treatise , seeing of how litle use it is like to prove , as to the businesse in hand , when the Author of it indeed apprehends not the principle which he pretends to oppose ; I shall once more tell him , that he abide not in his mistake , that if he intend to evert the principle here by me insisted on , it must be by a demonstration that the Schisme charged on the Corinthians by Paul consisted in the separation from , and relinquishment of that church , whereof they were members , and congregating into another not before erected or established ; for this is that which the Reformed Churches are charged to do by the Romanists , in respect of their Churches , and accused of schisme thereupon . But the differences which he thinks good to mannage and maintain , with , and against the Independents do so possesse the thoughts of this Reverend Author , that what ever occurres to him , is immediately measured by the regard which it seems to bear , or may possibly bear thereunto , though that consideration were least of all regarded in its proposall .

The next observation upon the former thesis that he takes into his examination , so far as he is pleased to transcribe it , is this ; Here is no mention of any particular man or number of men separating from the assembly of the whole church ) or subducting of themselves from its power ; only they had groundlesse causlesse differences amongst themselves ; Hereunto our Author variously replyes and saies , 1. was this all ? were not separations made , if not from that church , yet in that church as well as divisions ? Let the Scripture determine , chap. 1. 11. ch. 5. 3. I am a Disciple of Paul said one , and I a Disciple of Apollo said another : in our language ; I am a member of such a ministers congregation , saies one , such a man for my money : and so a third , and hereupon they most probably separated themselves into such and such congregations ; ana is not separation the ordinary issue of such envyings ?

I doubt not but that our Reverend Author supposeth that he hath here spoken to the purpose , and matter in hand ; and so perhaps may some others think also . I must crave leave to enter my dissent upon the account of the insuing reasons ; for , 1. It is not separation in the Church by mens divisions and differences whilst they continue members of the same Church , that I deny to be here charged under the name of Scisme , but such a separation from the Church , as was before described ; 2. The disputes amongst them about Paul and Apollos , the instruments of their conversion cannot possibly be supposed to relate unto Ministers of distinct congregations among them . Paul and Apollos were not so , and could not be figures of them that were ; so that those expressions do not at all answer those which he is pleased to make parallell unto them . 3. Grant all this , yet this proves nothing to the cause in hand , men may crye up some the Minister of one congregation , some of another , and yet neither of them separate from the one , or other , or the congregations themselves fall into any separation , wherefore ( 4 ) He saies , probably they separated into such and such congregations ; But this is most improbable ; for first , there is no mention at all of those many congregations that are supposed , but rather the contrary , as I have declared , is expressly asserted : 2. There is no such thing mentioned or intimated , nor , 3. are they in the least rebuked for any such thing , though the forementioned differences which are a lesse evill are reproved again , and againe , under the name of Schisme : so that this most improbable improbability or rather vaine conjecture , is a very mean refuge and retreat from the evidence of expresse Scripture , which in this place is alone inquired after-Doth indeed the Reverend Author think , will he pretend so to do , that the holy Apostle should so expresly , weightily , and earnestly , reprove their dissentions in the church , whereof they were members , and yet not speak one word , or give the least intimation of their separation from the church ; had there indeed been any such thing ? I dare leave this to the conscience of the most partially addicted person under heaven , to the Authors cause , who hath any conscience at all ; nor dare I dwell longer on the confutation of this fiction , though it be upon the matter the whole of what I am to contend withall . But he farther informes us that ▪ there was a separation to parties in the church of Corinth , at least as to one ordinance of the Lords supper , as appears c. 11. v. 18 , 21 , 22 , 23. and this was part of their Schisme . v. 16. And not long after they separated into other Churches , sleighting and undervaluing the first ministers and churches , as nothing or lesse pure then their owne , which we see practised sufficiently at this day . A. Were not this the head & seate of the first part of the controversie insisted on , I should not be able to prevaile with my selfe , to cast away precious time in the consideration of such things as these , being tendered as suitable to the businesse in hand ; It is acknowledged that there were differences amongst them , and disorders in the administration of the Lords supper , that therein they used respect of persons , as the place quoted in the margin by our Author , Jam. 2. 1 , 2 , 3. manifests that they were ready to do in other places ; the disorder the Apostle blames in the administration of the ordinances was , when they came together in the Church , v. 18. when they came together in one place ; v. 20. there they tarried not one for another as they ought v. 33. but coming unprepared , some having eaten before , some being hungry v. 21. all things were mannaged with great confusion amongst them v. 22. and if this prove not , that the Schisme they were charged withall consisted in a separation from that church with which they came together in one place , we are hopelesse of any farther evidence to be tendred to that purpose . That there were disorders amongst them in the celebration of the Lords supper is certain ; that they separated into severall congregations on that account , or one from another , or any from all , is not in the least intimation signified ; but the plaine contrary shines in the whole state of things , as there represented : had that been done , and had so to do , been such an evill , as is pleaded , ( as causlesly to do it is no small evill ) it had not passed unreproved from him , who was resolved in the things of God , not to spare them . 2 That they afterwards fell into the separation aimed at to be asserted Our Reverend Author affirmes , that so he may make way for a reflection on the things of his present disquietment ; but as we are not as yet concerning our selves , in what they did afterwards ; so when we are , we shall expect somewhat more then bare affirmations for the proofe of it : being more then ordinarily confident , that he is not able from the Scripture , or any other story of credit , to give the least countenance to what he here affirmes . But now as if the matter were well discharged , when there hath not one word been spoken ; that in the least reaches the case in hand ; he saith 3. by way of supposition that there was but one single congregation at Corinth ; yet ( said he ) the Apostle dehorts the brethren from Schisme , and writes to more then the Church of Corinth , ch. 1. v. 2. A. I have told him before , that though I am full well resolved that there was but one single congregation at Corinth in those daies , yet I am not at all convinced as to the proposition under confirmatiō to assert any such thing , but will suppose the church to be of what kind my Author pleaseth , whilst he will acknowledge it to be the particular Church of Corinth . I confesse the Apostle dehorts the brethren from Schisme , even others as well as those at Corinth , so far as the church of God in all places , and ages , are concerned in his instructions and dehortations , when they fall under the case stated , parallel with that which is the ground of his dealing with them at Corinth ; but what that Schisme was from which he dehorts them , he declares only in the instance of the Church of Corinth : and thence is the measure of it to be taken , in reference to all dehorted from it . Unto the 3d. Observation added by me , he makes no returne , but only laies down some exceptions to the exemplification given of the whole matter , in another schisme that fell out in that Church about 40 yeares after the composure of this , which was the occasion of that excellent Epistle unto them from the Church of Rome , called the Epistle of Clement ; disswading them from Persisting in that strife and contention , and pressing them to unity and agreement among themselves : some things our Reverend Author offers as to this instance , but so , as that I cannot but suppose , that he consulted not the Epistle on this particular occasion ; and therefore now I desire him that he would do so , and I am perswaded he will not a second time give countenance to any such apprehension of the then state of the Church , as though there were any separation made from it , by any of the members thereof , doeing or suffering the injury there complained of , about which those differences and contentions arose . I shall not need to go over againe the severalls of that Epistle ; one word mentioned by my selfe , namely {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} he insists on , and informes us , that it implies a separation into other assemblies ; which he saies I waved to understand . I confesse I did so in this place , and so would he also , if he had once consulted it . The speech of the Church of Rome is there to the Church of Corinth , in reference to the elders whom they had deposed . the whole sentence is ; {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} . and the words immediately going before are ; {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} : then follows that {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} ; our Author I suppose , understands Greek , and so I shall spare my pains of transcribing Mr. Youngs latin translation ; or adding one in English of mine own ; and if he be pleased to read these words , I think we shall have no more of his {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} .

If a faire opportunity call me forth to the farther mannagement of this controversy , I shall not doubt but from that Epistle , and some other pieces of undoubted antiquity , as the Epistle of the Church of Vienna and Lyons , of Smyrna , with some publick records of those daies , as yet preserved , worthy all of them to be written in letters of Gold , to evince that state of the Churches of Christ in those daies , as will give abundant light to the principles I proceed upon in this whole businesse .

And thus have I briefly vindicated what was proposed as the precise Scripture notion of schisme , against which indeed not any one objection hath beenraised , that speaks directly to the thing in hand . Our Reverend Author being full of warme affections against the independents , and exercised greatly in disputing the common principles which either they hold , or are supposed so to do ; measures every thing that is spoken , by his apprehension of those differences , wherein as he thinks their concernment doth lie : had it not bin for some such prejudice , ( for I am unwilling to ascribe it to more blameable principles ) it would have been almost impossible that he should have once imagined that he had made the least attempt towards the eversion of what I had asserted ; much lesse that he had made good the title of his book ▪ though he scarce forgets it , or any thing concerning it but its proofe , in any one whole leafe of his treatise . It remaines then that the nature and notion of Schisme as revealed and described in the Scripture , was rightly fixed in = my former discourse ; and I must assure this Reverend Author , that I am not afrighted from the embraceing and maintaining of it , with those scare crowes of new light ; singularity , and the like , which he is pleased frequently to set up to that purpose . The discourse that ensues in our Author concerning a parity of reason , to prove that if that be schisme , then much more is separation so , shall afterwards if need be , be considered , when I proceed to shew what yet farther may be granted without the least prejudice of truth , though none can necessitate me to recede from the precise notion of the name and thing delivered in the Scripture . I confess I cannot but marvell , that any man undertaking the examination of that Treatise , and expressing so much indignation at the thoughts of my discourse , that lyeth in this businesse , should so sleightly passe over that , whereon he knew that I laid the great weight of the whole . Hath he so much as indeavourd to prove , that that place to the Corinthians , is not the only place wherein there is in the Scripture any mention of schisme in an ecclesiasticall sense ; or that the Church of Corinth was not a particular church : is any thing of importance offerd to impaire the assertion that the evill reproved was within the verge of that church , and without separation from it ? and do I need any more to make good to the utmost that which I have asserted ; but of these things afterwards .

In all that followes to the end of this chapter , I meet with nothing of importance that deserves farther notice ; that which is spoken is for the most part built upon mistakes ; as that when I speak of a member or the members of one particular church , I intend onely one single congregation exclusively to any other acceptation of that expression , in reference to the apprehension of others : that I denie the reformed Churches to be true churches , because I denie the Church of Rome to be so ; and denie the institution of a nationall church , which yet our Author pleads not for . He would have it for granted that because Schisme consists in a difference among church members , therefore he that raises such a difference , whither he be a member of that church wherein the difference is raised , or of any other or no ( suppose he be a Mahumetan or a Jew ) is a Schismatick ; pleads for the old definition of Schisme , as suitable to the Scripture , after the whole foundation of it is taken away : wrests many of my expressions ! as that in particular , in not making the matter of Schisme to be things relating to the worship of God , to needlesse discourses about Doctrine and Discipline , not apprehending what I intended by that expression of the worship of God ; and I suppose it not advisable to follow him in such extravagancies . The usuall aggravations of Schisme he thought good to reinforce , whither he hoped that I would dispute with him about them , I cannot tell . I shall now assure him that I will not , though if I may have his good leave to say so , I lay much more weight on those insisted on by my selfe , wherein I am encouraged , by his approbation of them .

CHAP. 5.

THe third Chapter of my Treatise consisting in the preventing and removing such objections as the precedent discourse might seem lyable and obnoxious unto , is proposed to examination , by our Reverend Author , in the third Chap. of his Booke : and the objections mentioned undertaken to be managed by him , with what successe , some few considerations will evince .

The first Objection by me proposed was taken from the Common Apprehension of the nature of Schisme , and the issue of stateing it as by me layd down ; namely hence it would follow that the separation of any man or men from a true Church , or of one Church from others is not Schisme . But now waving for the present the more large consideration of the name & thing , which yet in the processe of my discourse I do condescend upon , according to the principle layd down ; I say that in the precise signification of the word , and description of the thing as given by the holy Ghost this is true ; no such separation is in the scripture so called , or so accounted , whither it may not in a large sence be esteemed as such , I do not dispute , yea I afterwards grant it so farre , as to make that concession the bottome and foundation of my whole plea , for the vindication of the reformed churches from that crime . Our Reverend Author reinforces the objection by sundry instances ; As , 1. that he hath disproved that sence or precise signisication of the word in Scripture , how well let the Reader judge . 2. That supposing that to be the onely sence mentioned in that case of the Corinthians , yet may another sence be intimated in Scripture and deduced by regular and rationall consequence : Perhaps this will not be so easy an undertaking , this being the onely place where the name is mentioned , or thing spoken of in an Ecclesiasticall sence : but when any proofe is tendred of what is here affirmed , we shall attend unto it . It is said indeed that if separation in Judgment in a Church be a Schisme , much more to separate from a Church ! but our question is about the precise notion of the word in Scripture , and consequences from thence , not about consequents from the nature of things , concerning which if our Author had been pleased to have staid a while , he would have found me granting as much as he could well desire . 3. 1 John 2. 19. is sacrificed {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} and interpreted of Schisme . Where ( to make one venture in imitation of our Author ) All Orthodox Interpreters , and writers of controversies expound it of Apostacy ; neither will the context or arguing of the Apostle admit of another exposition ; mens wresting of Scripture to give countenance to inveterate errours is one of their worst concomitants ; so then that seperation from Churches is oftentimes evill is readily granted : of what nature that evill is , with what are the aggravations of it , a judgment is to be made , from the pleas and pretences that its circumstances afford : so farr as it proceeds from such dissensions as before were mentioned , so far it proceeds from schisme , but in its own nature absolutely considered it is not so .

To render my former assertions the more unquestionably evident , I consider the severall accounts given of mens blameable departures ' from any Church , or Churches mentioned in Scripture , and manifest that none of them come under the head of Schisme . Apostasy , irregularly of walking , and professed sensuality , are the heads , whereunto all blameable departures from the Churches in the Scripture are referred .

That there are other accounts of this crime , our Author doth not assert ; he onely saies , that all , or some of the places I produce , as instances of a blameable separation from a Church , do mind the nature of Schisme as precedaneous to the separation ; What ere the matter is I do not find him speaking ▪ so faintly and with so much caution through his whole discourse as in this place : all , or some do it ; they mind the nature of Schisme ; they mind it as precedaneous to the separation , so the summe of what he aims at in contesting about the exposition of those places of Scripture is this ; some of them do mind ( I know not how ) the nature of Schisme , which he never once named as precedaneous to separation ; therefore the precise notion of Schisme in the Scripture doth not denote differences and divisions in a Church only ; Quod erat demonstrandum : That I should spend time in debating a consideration so remote from the state of the controversie in hand , I am sure will not be expected by such as understand it .

Pag. 77. Of my treatise I affirm that for a man to withdraw or withold himselfe from the communion externall and visible of any Church or Churches , on that pretention or plea ( be it true or otherwise ) that the worship , doctrine , or discipline instituted by Christ is corrupted among them , with which corruption he dares not defile himselfe , is no where in the Scripture called Schisme , nor is that case particularly exemplified , or expressely supposed , whereby a Judgment may be made of the fact at large , but we are left , upon the whole matter , to the guidance of such generall rules and principles as are given us for that end and purpose : Such is my meanesse of apprehension that I could not understand , but that either this assertion must be subscribed unto , as of irrefragable verity , or else that instances to the contrary must have been given out of the Scripture ; for on that hinge alone doth this present controversie ( and that by consent ) turne it selfe : But our Reverend Author thinks good to take another course ( for which his reasons may easily be conjectured ) and excepts against the assertion it selfe in Generall : first , as ambiguous and fallacious , And then also intimates that he will scan the words in perticular ; Mihi jussa capessere , &c. 1. He saies , that I tell not whither a man may separate where there is corruption in some one of these onely or in all of them , nor 2. How farre some or all of these must be corrupted before we separate . A. This is no small vanity under the sunne , that men will not onely measure themselves by themselves , but others also by their own measure : Our Author is still with his finger in the sore , and therefore supposes that others must needs take the same course . Is there any thing in my assertion whither a man may separate from any church or no ? any thing upon what Corruption he may lawfully so do ? any thing of stating the difference betwixt the Presbiterians and Independants ? do I at all fix it on this fo●t of account when I come so to doe ? I humbly beg of this Author , that if I have so obscurely and intricately delivered my selfe and meaning , that he cannot come to the understanding of my designe , nor import of my expressions , that he would favour me with a command to explain my selfe , before he engage into a publicke refutation of what he doth not so clearly apprehend ! Alas , I do not in this place in the least intend to justify any separation , nor to shew what pleas are sufficient to justify a separation , nor what corruption in the church separated from , is necessary thereunto , nor at all regard the controversie his eye is allwaies on ; but onely declare what is not comprised in the precise Scripture notion of Schisme , as also how a Judgment is to be made of that which is so by me excluded , whither it be good or evill . Would he have been pleased to have spoken to the businesse in hand , or any thing to the present purpose , it must not have been by an inquiry into the grounds & reasons of separation , how farre it may be justified by the plea mentioned , or how farre not ▪ when that plea is to be allowed , and when rejected ; but this only was incumbent on him to prove ! namely , that such a separation upon that plea , or the like , is called Schisme in the Scripture , and as such a thing condemned . What my concernment is in the ensuing observations ; that the Judaicall Church was as corrupt as ours , that if a bare plea true or false will serve to justifie men , all separatists may be justified , he himselfe will easily perceive : But however , I cannot but tell him by the way , that he who will dogmatize , in this controversy from the Judaicall Church , and the course of proceedings amongw them , to the direction and limitation of duty , as to the churches of the Gospel , considering the vast & important differences between t he constitutions of the one & the other , with the infallible obligation to certain principles , on the account of the typicall institution in that Primitive Church , when there neither was nor could be any more in the world , must expect to bring other Arguments to compasse his designe , then the analogie pretended . For the justification of Separatists of the reason , if it will ensue , upon the examination for separation , and the circumstances of the seperating , whereunto I referre them , let it follow , and let who will complain ; But to fill up the measure of the mistake he is ingaged in , he tells us pag. 75. that this is the pinch of the question , whither a man or a company of men may separate from a true Church , upon a plea of Corruptiō in it , true or false , & set up another Church , as to ordinances , renouncing that Church to be a true Church . This ( saith he ) is plainely our case at present , with the Doctor and his Associates ; truly I do not know that ever I was necessitated to a more sad and fruitlesse imployment in this kind of labour and travaile . Is that the question in present agitation ? is any thing , word , title , or iota spoken to it ? is it my present businesse to state the difference between the Presbyterians and Independents ? do I anywhere do it upon this account ? do I not every where positively deny that there is any such separation made ? nay can common honesty allow such a state of a question , if that were the businesse in hand to be put upon me ? are their ordinances and churches so denied by me as is pretended ? what I have often said , must again be repeated , The Reverend Author hath his eye so fixed on the difference between the Presbyterians and the Independants , that he is at every turn lead out of the way into such mistakes , as it was not possible he should otherwise be overtaken withall ; this is perhaps mentis gratissimus error : But I hope it would be no death to him to be delivered from it . When I laid downe the principles which it was his good will to oppose , I had many things under consideration , as to the settling of Conscience in respect of manifold oppositions ; and to tell him the truth , least valued that which he is pleased to mannage , and to look upon as my sole intendment ; if it be not possible to deliver him from this strong imagination , that carries the images and species of Independency alwaies before his eies , we shall scarce speak ad idem in this whole discourse . I desire then that he would take notice , that as the state of the controversy he proposes , doth no more relate to that which peculiarly is pretended to ly under his consideration , then any other thing whatever that he might have mentioned ; so when the peculiar difference between him and the Independents comes to be mannaged , scarce any one terme of his state will be allowed . Exceptions are in the next place attempted to be put in to my assertion , that there is no example in the Scripture of any one Churches departure from the union which they ought to hold with others , unlesse it be in some of their departures from the common faith , which is not Schisme ; much with the same successe as formerly : let him produce one instance , and , En Herbam . I grant the Roman church on a supposition that it is a Church ( which yet I utterly deny ) to be a schismaticall Church upon the account of the intestine divisions of all sorts ; or what other accounts other men urge them with the same guilt I suppose he knows by this , that I am not concern'd . Having finished this exploit , because I had said , if I were unwilling , I did not understand how I might be compelled to carry on the notion of Schisme any farther ; he tells me , though I be unwilling , he doubts not but to be able to compell me : but who told him I was unwilling so to do ? do I not immediately without any compulsion very freely fall upon the worke ? did I say I was unwilling ? Certainly it ought not to be thus ; of his abilities in other things I do not doubt ; in this discourse he is pleased to exercise more of something else .

There is but one passage more that needs to be remarked , and so this Chapter also is dismissed ; He puts in a Caveat that I limit not Schisme to the worship of God , upon these words of mine ; the consideration of what sort of union in reference to the worship of God ( where he inserts in the repetition ; marke that ) is instituted by Jesus Christ , is the foundation of what I have further to offer ; whereto he subjoined the designe of this in that he may have a fair retreat , when he is charged with breach of union in other respects , and so with Schisme ; to escape by this evasion : this breach of union is not in reference to the worship of God in one assembly met to that end . I wish we had once an end of these mistakes , and false uncharitable surmises . By the worship of God I intend the whole compasse of institutions , and their tendency thereunto . And I know that I speak properly enough in so doing ; I have no such designe as I am charged withall , nor do I need it ; I walke not in feare of this Authors forces , that I should be providing before hand to secure my retreat . I have passed the bounds of the precise notion of Schisme before insisted on , and yet doubt not but God assisting to make good my ground . If he judge I cannot , let him command my personall attendance on him at any time , to be driven from it by him ; let him by any meanes prove against me at any time a breach of any union instituted by Jesus Christ , and I will promise him , that with all speed I will retreate from that state , or thing , whereby I have so done . I must professe to this Reverend Author , that I like not the cause he mannages one whit the better for the way whereby he mannageth it . We had need watch and pray that we be not lead into temptation : seeing we are in some measure not ignorant of the devices of Sathan .

Now that he may see this door of escape shut up , that so he may not need to trouble himselfe any more in taking care , least I escape that way , when he intends to fall upon me with those blowes , which as yet I have not felt , I shall shut it fast my selfe , beyond all possibility of my opening againe : I here then declare unto him , that when ever he shall prove that I have broken any union of the institution of Jesus Christ , of what sort soever , I will not in excuse of my selfe , insist on the plea mentioned , but will submit to the discipline , which shall be thought meet by him to be exercised towards any one offending in that kind : yet truely on this engagement I would willingly contract with him , that in his next reply he should not deale with me , as he hath done in this , neither as to my person , nor as to the differences between us .

CHAP. 6.

HAving declared and vindicated the Scripture proper notion of Schisme , and thence discovered the nature of it with all its aggravations , with the mistakes that men have run into , who have suited their apprehensions concer●ing it , unto what was their interests to have it thought to be , and opened a way thereby for the furtherance of peace among professors of the Gospell of Jesus Christ , for the further security of the consciences of men unjustly accused and charged with the guilt of this evill , I proceeded to the consideration of it in the usuall common acceptation of the word , and things , that so I might obviate what ever with any tollerable pretence is insisted on , as deduced by a parity of reason from what is delivered in the Scripture , in reference to the charge managed by some or other against all sorts of Protestants . Hereupon I grant , that it may be looked on in generall as {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , a branch of union , so that it be granted also , that that union be an union of the institution of Jesus Christ . To find out then the nature of Schisme under the consideration of the condescention made : and to discover wherein the guilt of it doth consist : it is necessary that we find out what that union is , and wherein it doth consist , whereof it is the brcadth and interruption , or is supposed so to be over and above the breach above mentioned and described . Now this union being the union of the Church , the severall acceptations of the Church in scripture are to be investigated , that the union inquired after , may be made known . The church in scripture being taken either for the Church Catholick or the whole number of elect beleivers in the world ( for we lay aside the consideration of that part of this great family of God , which is already in heaven , from this distinction ) or else for the generall visible body of those who professe the gospell of Christ , or for a particular society joining together in the celebration of the ordinances of the new testament , instituted by Christ to be so celebrated by thē ; The union of it , with the breach of that union , in these severall respects with the application of the whole , to the businesse under consideration , was to be enquired after : which also was performed .

I began with the consideration of the Catholick invisible Church of Christ , and the union thereof ; having declared the rise of this distinction , and the necessity of it from the nature of the things themselves ; as to the matter of this church , or the church of Christ as here militant on earth , I affirme , and evince it to be , all and only elect believers ; the union of this church consists in the inhabitation of the same spirit in all the members of it , uniting them to the head Christ Jesus , and therein to one another . The breach of this union , I manifested to consist in the losse of that spirit , with all the peculiar consequences and effects of him in the hearts of them , in whom he dwels ; This I manifest according to our principles to be impossible , and upon a supposition of it , how remote it would be from Schisme , under any notion or acceptation of the word ; so closing that discourse with a charge on the Romanists of their distance from an interest in this church of Jesus Christ .

Our Reverend Author professes that he hath but little to say to these things , some exceptions he puts in unto some expressions used in the explication of my sense , in this particular : that which he chiefely insists upon , is the accommodation of that promise Matth. 16. 28. upon this rock will I build my church , to the Church in this sense , which he concludes to belong to the visible Church of professors ; now as I am not at all concerned , as to the truth of what I am in confirmation of , to which of these it be applyed , so I am far from being alone in that application of it to the Catholick Church which I insist upon ; All our Divines that from hence prove , the perseverance of all Individuall believers , as all do that I have met withall , who write on that subject , are of the same mind with me . Moreover the Church is built on this rock in its Individuals ; or I know not how it is so built . The building on Christ , doth not denote a meer relation of a generall body to his truth , that it shall allwaies have an existence , but the union of the Individualls with him in their being built on him , to whom the promise is made . I acknowledg it for as unquestionable a truth as any we believe , that Christ hath had , and ever shall have to the end of the world , a visible number of those that professe his name , and subjection to his kingdome ; because of the necessary consequence of profession upon believing ; but that , that truth is intended in this promise any farther but in respect of this consequence , I am not convinced . And I would be loath to say that this promise is not made to every particular believer , and only unto them ; being willing to vindicate to the Saints of God , all those grounds of consolation which he is so willing they should be made partakers of .

As to the union of this Church and the breach of it , our Reverend Author , hath a little to say : because there may be some decaies in true grace in the members of this Church : he affirms that in a sort there may be said to be a breach in this union , and so consequently a schisme in this body . He seemed formerly to be affraid lest all schisme should be thrust out of the world ; If he can retrive it on the account of any true believers failing in grace , or falling for a season , I suppose he needs not fear the losse of it , whilst this world continues : But it is fit , wise , and learned men should take the Liberty of calling things by what names they please ; so they will be pleasd withall , not to impose their conceptions and use of tearms on them who are not able to understand the reasons of them . It is true there may be a Schisme among the members of this church , but not as members of this church , nor with reference to the union thereof . It is granted that schisme is the breach of union ; but not of every union much lesse not a breach of that , which , if there were a breach of , it were not Schisme : However by the way I am bold to tell this Reverend Author , that this Doctrine of his , concerning schisme in the Catholick invisible Church , by the failings in Grace in any of the mēbers of it for a season , is a new notion , which as he cannot justify to us , because it is false , so , I wonder how he will justify it to himselfe , because it is new . And what hath been obtained by the Author against my principles in this chapter . I cannot perceive . The nature of the church in the state considered , is not opposed ; The union asserted not disproved ; the breach of that union , is denyed ( as I suppose ) no lesse by him then my selfe ; That the instances that sōe Saints , as mēbers of this Church may sometimes fail in grace more or lesse for some season ; & that the members of this Church , though not as members of this Church , yet on other considerations may be guilty of Schisme , concern not the businesse under debate , himselfe I hope is satisfied .

CHAP. 7.

OUr progresse in the next place is to the consideration of the Catholick Church visible . Who are the members of this church , whereof it is constituted , what is required to make them so , on what account men visibly professing the gospell may be esteemed justly devested of the priviledge of being members of this church , with sundry respects of the church in that sense , are in my treatise discussed . The union of this church that is proper and peculiar unto it as such , I declared to be the profession of the saving doctrine of the gospell , not everted by any of the miscarriages , errors , or oppositions to it , that are there recounted . The breach of this union I manifest to consist in apostasy , from the profession of the faith , and so to be no Schisme , upon whomsoever the guilt of it doth fall ; pleading the immunity of the Protestants as such from the guilt of the breach of this union , and charging it upon the Romanists , in all the waies whereby it may be broken , an issue is put to that discourse .

What course our Reverend Author takes in the examination of this chapter , & the severalls of it , whereon the strength of the controversie dothly ; is now to be consideed ; doth he deny this church to be a collection of all that are duly called Christians in respect of their profession ? to be that great multitude who throughout the world , professe the Doctrine of the Gospell , and subjection to Jesus Christ ? doth he denie the union of this church , or that whereby that great multitude are incorporated into one body as visible and professing , to be the profession of the saving doctrines of the Gospell , & of subjection to Jesus Christ according to them ? Doth he denie the dissolution of this union as to the interest of any member by it in the body , to be by apostasy from the profession of the Gospell ? Doth he charge that apostasy upon those whom he calls Independents as such , or if he should , could he tolerably defend his charge ? Doth he prove that the breach of this union , is under that formality properly Schisme ? nothing lesse ! as far as I can gather : might not then the trouble of this Chapter have been spared ? or shall I be necessitated to defend every expression in my book , though nothing at all to the main businesse under debate , or else Independency must goe for a great Schisme . I confesse this is somewhat an hard Law , and such as I cannot proceed in obedience unto it , without acknowledging his ability to compell me to go on further then I am willing ; yet I do it with this ingagement , that I will so looke to my selfe , that he shall never have that power over me any more ; nor will I upon any compulsion of useless needlesse cavils & exceptions do so again ▪ so that in his reply he now knowes how to order his affairs so , as to be freed from the trouble of a Rejoinder .

His first attempt in this chapter , is upon a short discourse of mine , in my processe , which I professe not to be needfull to the purpose in hand , relating to some later disputes about the nature of this Church , wherein some had affirmed it to be a Genus to particular churches , which are so many distinct species of it , and others that it was a totum made up of particular churches as its parts , both which in some sense I denyed ; partly out of a desire to keep off all debates about the things of God , frō being enwrapped and agitated in and under Philosophicall notions and faigned tearms of Art , which hath exceedingly multiplied controversies in the world and rendred them endlesse , and doth more or lesse streighten or oppose every truth that is so dealt withall : partly because I evidently saw men deducing false consequents from the supposition of such notions of this Church : for the first way , our Reverend Author lets it passe , onely with a remarke upon my dissenting from Mr Hooker of New England , which he could not but note by the way , although he approves what I affirme . A worthy note ! as though all the brethren of the Presbyterian way , were agreed among themselves in all things of the like importance ; or that I were in my judgment enthralled to any man or men , so that it should deserve a note when I dissent from them . Truly I blesse God , I am utterly unacquainted with any such frame of spirit , or bondage of mind , as must be supposed to be in them whose dissent from other men is a matter of such observation . One is my Master , to whom alone my heart and judgement are in subjection : for the latter I do not say absolutely that particular Churches are not the parts of the Catholique visible , in any sense , but that they are not so parts of it as such , so that it should be constituted & made up by thē , & of thē , for the order and purpose of an instituted Church , for the celebration of the worship of God , and institutions of Christ , according to the Gospell ; which when our Author proves that it is : I shall acknowledge my selfe obliged to him . He saies indeed , that it was once possible that all the members of the Catholique Church , should meet together , to heare one sermon , &c. But he is to prove , that they were bound to do so , as that Catholique Church , and not that it was possible for all the members of it under any other notion , or consideration so to convene . But he saies , they are bound to do so still , but that the multitude makes it impossible : Credat Apella : that Christ hath bound his Church to that which himselfe makes impossible . Neither are they so bound : they are bound , by his own acknowledgement , to be members of particular Churches : & in that capacity , are they bound so to convene ; those churches being by the will of God , appointed for the seat of ordinances . And so what he adds in the next place of particular Churches , being bound according to the institution of Christ to assemble for the celebration of ordinances , is absolutely destructive of the former figment . But he would know a reason why 40 or more , that are not members of one particular church , but only of the Catholick , meeting together , may not join together in all ordinances , as well as they may meet to heare the word preached , and often doe ; to which I answer ; that it is because Jesus Christ hath appointed particular Churches , and there is more required to them , then the occasionall meeting of some , any , or all , if possible of the members of the Catholick church as such , will afford .

His reflexions upon my selfe , added in that place , are now growne so common , that they deserve not any notice . In his ensuing discourse , if I may take leave to speak freely to our Reverend Author , he wrangles about termes and expressions , adding to , and altering those by me used in this businesse at his pleasure , to make a talke to no purpose . The summe of what he pretends to oppose is , that this universall church , or the universality of Professors considered as such , neither formally as members of the church Catholick , mistically Elect , nor as any members of any Particular Church , have not as such , any Church forme of the institution of Christ , by virtue whereof , they should make up one instituted Church , for the end and purpose of the celebration of the Ordinances of the Gospell therein . If he suppose he can prove the contrary , let him cease from cavilling at words , and by expressions , which is a facile taske for any man to engage in , and no way usefull , but to make controversies endlesse ; and answer my Reasons against it , which here he passeth over , and produce his testimonies and arguments for that purpose . This triviall ventilation of particular passages cut off from their influence into the whole , is not worth a nut-shell , but is a businesse fit for them who have nothing else to employ themselves about .

Coming to consider the union that I assigne to this Church , after whose breach an enquiry is to be made , which is the maine , and only thing of his concernment , as to the aime he hath proposed to himselfe , he passeth it over very slightly : taking no notice at all of my whole discourse , frō p. 116. top . 133. of my treatise ; wherein I disprove the pretensions of other things to be the union , or bond of union to this church ; he fixes a very little while on what I assigne to be that union . This I say is profession of the faith of the Gospell , and subjection to Jesus Christ according to it : to which he adds , that they are bound to more then this , viz : to the exercise of the same specificall Ordinances , as also to love one another , to subjection to the same discipline , and where it is possible to the exercise of the same numericall worship . All this was expresly affirm'd by me before ; it is all virtually contained in their profession , so far as the things mentioned are revealed in the Gospell : only as to the celebrating of the same numericall Ordinances , I cannot grant that they are obliged hereunto as formally considered members of that Church , nor shall , untill our Reverend Author shall think meet to prove , that particular congregations are not the institutions of Jesus Christ . But hereupon he affirms , that that is a strange assertion used by me pa : 117. namely , that if there be not an institution of joining in the same numericall ordinances , the union of this Church is not really a Church union . This is no more but what was declared before , nor more then what I urged the testimony of a learned Presbyterian for : no more but this , that the universality of Christians throughout the world , are not under such an institution , as that , to assemble together for the celebration of the same numericall Ordinances ; the pretence of any such institution being supplied by Christ's acknowledged institutiō of particular Churches for that purpose .

What I have offered in my Treatise , as evidence that Protestants are not guilty of the breach of this union , and that where any are , their crime is not Schisme but Apostacy , either as to profession or conversation , I leave to the judgment of all candid , sober , and ingenious Readers ; for such as love strife , and debates , and disputes , whereof the world is full , I would crave of them , that if they must chuse me for their Adversary , they would allow me to answer in person , vivâ voce , to prevent this tedious trouble of writing , which for the most part is fruitlesse and needlesse . Some exceptions our Author laies in , against the Properties of the profession by me required , as necessary to the preservation of this union : as to the first of professing all necessary saving Truths of the Gospell , he excepts that the Apostles were ignorant of many necessary truths of the Gospell for a season , and some had never heard of the holy Ghost . Act. 29. and yet they kept the union of the Catholick Church . And yet our Author before he closeth this chapter , will charge the breach of this union on some , whose errors cannot well be apprehended to lie in the deniall of any necessary truth of the Gospell , that is , indispensably necessary to salvation . As to his instance of the Apostles , he knows it is one thing not to know clearly and distinctly for some season , some truths in hypothesi , and another to deny them being sufficiently and clearly revealed in thesi ; and for those in the Acts , it is probable they were ignorant of the dispensations of the holy Ghost , with his marvelous effects under the Gospell , rather then of the person of the holy Ghost : for even in respect of the former it is absolutely said that the holy Ghost was not yet , because Jesus was not yet glorified . I shall not pursue his other exceptions , being sorry that his judgment leads him to make them ; that which alone beares any aspect to the business in hand , he insists on pag. 99. in these words . I have intimated and partly proved , that there may be a breach of union , with respect to the Catholick Church upon other considerations ( namely besides the renuntiation of the profession of the Gospell : ) As first , there is a bond that obliges every member of this Church , to joine together in exercising the same Ordinances of worship : when then any man shall refuse to joine with others , or refuse others to joine with him , here is a breach of love and union among the members of the Catholick Church ; and in the Particular Churches as parts of the Catholick .

The Reader must pardon me for producing and insisting on these things , seeing I do it with this profession , that I can fix on nothing else so much to the purpose in hand : and yet how little these are so , cannot but be evident upon a sleight view to the meanest capacities . For 1. he tells us there may be a breach of union with respect to the Catholick church , on other considerations : not that there may be a breach of the uniō of the Catholick Church . 2. That there is a bond binding men to the exercise of Ordinances ; so there is binding man to all holinesse ; and yet he denies the vilest profane persons to break that bond or this union . 3. That there may be a breach of union among the members of the Church : but who knows it not , that knows all members of Particular Churches , are also members of this church generall . Our enquiry is after the union of the Catholick-Church visible , what it is , how broken , and what the crime or evill is , whereby it is broken , what obligations lie on the members of that Church , as they stand under any other formall consideration ; what is the evill they are any of them guiltie of , in not answering these obligations , we were not at all enquiring , nor doth it in this place concerne us so to do . And in what he afterwards tells us of some proceedings contrary to the practise of the universall Church she intends I suppose all the Churches in the worldj wherein the members of the universall Church have walked or do so ; for the universall Church as such , hath no practice as to cecelebration of ordinances ; & if he suppose it hath , let him tell us what it is , and when that practice was . His appeale to the primitive believers , and their small number will not availe him : for although they should be granted to be the then Catholick visible Church ( against which he knowes what exceptions may be laid from the believers amongst the Jewes , such as Cornelius , to whom Christ had not as yet been preached , as the Messiah come , and exhibited ) yet as such , they joined not in the celebration of ordinances , but ( as yet they were ) as a particular congregation ; yea though all the Apostles were amongst them , the foundation of all the Churches that afterwards were called .

He concludes this chapter with an exception to my assertion , that if the Catholick Church be a politicall body , it must have a visible politicall head , which nothing but the Pope claimes to be . Of this he saies , 1. There is no necessity , for saith he , he confesses the common wealth of the Jews , was a politicall body , and God who is invisible , was their politicall head : 2. Jesus Christ is a visible head , yea sometimes more , visus , seen of men whilst on earth , though now for a time in majesty ( as some great Princes do , ) he hath withdrawn himselfe from the sight of men on earth , yet is he seen of Angels and Saints in heaven . A. 1. I confesse God was the King and Ruler of the Jewes , but yet that they might be a visible Politicall body , the invisible God , appointed to them under him , a visible head ; as the Pope blasphemously pretends to be appointed under Jesus Christ . 2. Jesus Christ is in his humane nature still visible , as to his Person , wherein he is the head of his Church , he ever was , and is still invisible . His present absence , is not upon the account of Majesty , seeing in his majesty he is still present with us ; and as to his bodily absence he gives other accounts , then that here insinuated . Now it sufficeth not to constitute a visible politicall body , that the head of it , in any respect may be seen , unlesse as that their head he is seen : Christ is visible , as this Church is visible ; He in his lawes , in his word ; that in its profession , in its obedience . But I marvell that our Reverend Author thus concluding for Christ to be the politicall head of this Church , as a Church , should at the same time contend for such subjects of this head as he doth , p. 96. namely persons , contradicting their profession of the knowledge of God , by a course of wickedness , manifesting principles of profaneness , wherewith the beliefe of the truth they profess , hath an absolute inconsistency ; as I expresly describe the persons , whose membership in this church , and relation thereby to Christ their head he pleads for . Are indeed these persons any better thēMahumetans as to church priviledges ? they are indeed in some places , as to providentiall advantages of hearing the word preached ; but woe unto them on that account ; it shall be more tolerable for Mahumetans in that day of Christ , then for them : shall their Baptisme availe them ? though it were valid in its administration , that is , was celebrated in obedience to the cōmād of Christ , is it not null to thē ? is not their circumcision uncircūcision ? shall such persons give their children any right to church priviledges ? let them if you please be so subjects to Christ , as Rebells and Traitors are subject to their earthly princes : they ought indeed to be so , but are they so ? do they owne their Authority ? are they obedient to them ? do they enjoy any priviledge of Lawes ? or doth ▪ the Apostle anywhere call such persons as live in a course of wickednesse , manifesting principles utterly inconsistent with the profession of the Gospell , brethren ? God forbid we should once imagine these things so to be ! And so much for that chapter .

CHAP. VIII . Of Independentisme and Donatisme .

THe Title of our Authors book is , Independency a great Schisme , of this chapter that it may be the better known what kind of schisme it is , Independentisme is Donatisme . Men may give what title they please to their books and chapters , though perhaps few books make good their titles . I am sure this doth not as yet , nisi accusasse sufficiat : Attempts of proof we have not as yet met withall : what this chapter will furnish us withall , we shall now consider . He indeed that shall weigh the title , Independentisme is Donatisme , & then casting his eye upon the first lines of the chapter it selfe , find , that the Reverend Author saies , he cannot but acknowledge , that what I plead for the vindication of protestants from the charge of schisme in their separation from Rome , as the Catholick church , to be rationall , solid , and judicious ; will perhaps be at a losse in conjecturing how I am like to be dealt withall in the following discourse ; a little patience will let him see , that our Author laies more weight upon the Title , then the preface of this chapter ; and that with all my fine trappings I am enrolled in the black booke of the Donatists : but 1 quod fo rs feret feramus aequo animo ; or as another saith , debemus optare optima , cogitare difficulima , ferre quaecunque erunt ; as the case is fallen out , we must deal with it as we can . 1. He saith ; he is not satisfied , that he not only denies the Church of Rome ( so called ) to be a particular Church , pag. 154. but also affirms it to be no Church at all . That he is not satisfied , with what I affirm of that Synagogue of Sathan where he hath his throne , I cannot helpe it , though I am sorry for it :

I am not also without some trouble , that I cannot understand , what he means by placeing my words , so as to intimate , that I say , not only that the church of Rome is no particular church , but also that it is no church at all ; as though it might in his judgment or mine , be any Church , if it be not a particular church ; For I verily suppose neither he nor I judg it to be that Catholick Church , whereto it pretends . But yet as I have no great reason to expect that this Reverend Author should be satisfied in any thing that I affirme , so I hope that it is not impossible , but that without any great difficulty , he may be reconciled to himselfe affirming the very same thing , that I do p. 113. It is of Rome in that sence , wherein it claims it self to be a church , that I speak : & in that sence he saies it is no church of Christs institution , and so for my part , I account it no church at all ; but he adds , that he is far more unsatisfied that I undertake the cause of the Donatists , and labour to exempt them from Schisme , though I allow them guilty of other crimes . But do I indeed undertake the cause of the Donatists ? do I plead for thē ? will he manifest it by saying more against them in no more words , then I haved one ? do I labour to exempt them from Schisme ? are these the waies of peace , love and truth that the Reverend Author walks in ? do I not condemne all their practises , and pretensions from the beginning to the end ? can I not speak of their cause in Reference to the Catholick Church and its union , but it must be affirmed that I plead for them ? But yet as if righteousnesse and truth had been observ'd in this crimination , he undertakes as of a thing granted to give my grounds of doing , what he affirms me to have done : The first is , as he saies , His singular notion of Schisme , limiting it only to differences in a particular Assembly . 2. His jealousy of the charge of Schisme to be objccted to himselfe , and party , if separating from the true Churches of Christ be truly called Schisme . A. What may I expect from others , when so grave and Reverend a person as this Author is reported to be , shall thus deal with me ? Sr I have no singular notion of Schisme , but embrace that which Paul hath long since declared , nor can you manifest any difference in my notion from what he hath delivered ; nor is that notion of Schisme at all under consideration in Reference to what I affirme of the Donatists , ( who in truth were concerned in it , the most of them to them to the utmost ) but the union of the Church Catholick and the breach thereof ; Neither am I jealous or fearfull of the charge ' of Schisme , from any person living on the earth , and least of all from men proceeding in church affaires upon the principles you proceed on . Had you not been pleased , to have supposed what you please , without the least ground , or colour , or reason , perhaps you would have as little satisfyed your selfe in the charge you have undertaken to manage against me , as you have done many good men , as the case now stands , even of your own judgment in other things .

Having made this entrance , he proceeds in the same way , and pag. 164. laye's the foundation of the title of his booke & this chapter , of his charge of donatisme in these words . This lies in full force against him and his party , who have broken the union of our churches , and separated themselves from all the protestant churches in the world , not of their own constitution , and that as no true churches of Christ : this I say is the foundatiō of his whole ensuing discourse ; all the groūd that he hath to stand upon in the defence of the Invidious title of this chapter ; and what fruit he expects from this kind of proceeding I know not ; The day will manifest of what sort this work is ; Although he may have some mistaken apprehensions to countenance his conscience in the first part of his assertion , or that it may be forgiven to inveterate praejudice though it be false ; namely ; that I and my party ( that 's the phraseology , this Author in his love to unity delights in ) have broken the union of their churches ( which we have no more done , then they have broken the union of ours , for we began our reformation with them , on even tearms , and were as early at work as they ) yet what coulour , what excuse can be invented to alleviate the guilt of the latter part of it , that we have separated from all the reformed churches as no churches ? and yet he repeats this again . pag. 106. with especiall reflexion on my selfe : I wonder not saith he , that the Doctor hath unchurched Roome , for he hath done as much to England and all forraign protestant churches , and makes none to be members of the church , but such as are by covenant and consent joyned to some of their congregations . Now truly though all righteous laws of men in the world , will afford recompence and satisfaction for calumniating accusations and slaunders of much lesse importance then this here publickly ownd by our Reverend Author , yet seeing the gospell of the blessed God , requires to forgive , and passe by greater injuries , I shall labour in the strength of his grace to bring my heart unto conformity to his will therein ; notwithstanding which , because by his providence I am in that place and condition , that others also that fear his name may be some way concern'd in this unjust imputatiō , I must declare that this is open unrighteousness , wherein neither love nor truth hath been observed . How little I am concernd in his following parallell of Independentisme and Donatisme , wherein he proceeds with the same truth and candor , or in all that followes thereupon , is easy for any one to judg . He proceeds to scan my Answers to the Romanists , as in reference to their charge of Schisme upon us ; and saies , I do it sutable to my own principles . And truly if I had not , I think I had been much to blame . I referre the Reader to the Answers given in my book , and if he like them not , notwithstanding this Authors exceptions , I wish he may fix on those that please him better ▪ in them there given , my conscience doth acquiesce .

But he comes in the next place to Arguments , wherein if he prove more happy then he hath done in Accusations , he will have great cause to rejoyce . By a double Argument , as he saies , he will prove that there may be Schisme besides that in a particular Church . His first is this .

Schisme is a breach of Union , but there may be a breach of union in the Catholick visible church . His second this ; where there are differenccs raysed in matter of faith professed , wherein the union of the Catholick Church consists , there may be a breach of union , but there may be differences in the Catholick , or among the members of the Catholick church in matter of faith professed , Ergo . Having thus laid down his Arguments , he falls to conjecture what I will answer , and how I will evade ; but it will quickly appear that he is no lesse unhappy in arguing and conjecturing , then he is , and was in accusing . For to consider his first Argument : if he will undertake to make it good as to its forme , I will by the same way of arguing , ingage my selfe to prove what he would be unwilling to find in a regular conclusion . But as to the matter of it , 1. Is Schisme every breach of union ? or is every breach of Union schisme ? Schisme in the Ecclesiasticall notion is granted to be in the present dispute , the breach of the union of a church , which it hath by the institution of Christ ; and this not of any union of Christs institution , but of one certaine kind of union ; for as was proved , there is an union , whose breach can neither in the language of the Scripture , nor in reason , nor common sense be called or accounted schisme , nor ever was by any man in the world , nor can be without destroying the particular nature of schisme , and allowing only the generall notion of any separation , good or bad , in what kind soever . So that secondly , it is granted , not onlie that there may be a breach of union in the Catholick church , but also that there may be a breach of the union of the Catholick church , by a deniall or relinquishment of the profession wherein it consists ; but that this breach of union is sehisme , because sehisme is a breach of union , is as true , as that every man who hath two eyes , is every thing that hath two eyes . For his second , it is of the same importance with the first ; there may be differences in the Catholick church , and breaches of union among the members of it , which are far enough from the breach of the union of that church , as such . Two professors may fall out and differ , and yet I think continue both of them professors still . Paul and Barnabas did so ; Chrysostome and Epiphanius did so ; Cyrill and Theodoret did so . That which I denied was , that the breach of the union of the catholick church as such , is Schisme . He proves the contrary by affirming there may be differences among the members of the catholick church , that do not break the union of it , as such . But he saies though there be Apostasy , or Heresy , yet there may be Schisme also ; but not in respect of the breach of the same union , which only he was to prove . Besides evill surmizes , reproaches , false criminations , and undue suggestions , I find nothing wherein my discourse is concerned to the end of this chap. pag. 109. upon the passage of mine ; we are thus come off from this part of Schisme for the relinquishment of the Catholick church , which we have not done , and so to do , is not schisme , but a sin of another nature , and importance ; he adds , that the ground I goe upon why separation from a true church ( he must meane the catholick church , or he speaks nothing at all the businesse in hand ) is no schisme , is that afore mentioned , that a schisme in the Scripture notion is onely a division of jugment in a particular assembly . But who so blind as they that will not see ? the ground I proceeded on evidently , openly , solely , was taken from the nature of the Catholick church its union , and the breach of that union , and if obiter I once mention that notion , I do it upon my confidence of its truth , which I here againe tender my selfe in a readinesse to make good to this Reverend Author , if at any time he will be pleased to command my personall attendance upon him to that purpose . To repeat more of the like mistakes and surmizes , with the wranglings that ensue on such false suppositions to the end of this chapter , is certainly needlesse ; for my part , in and about this whole businesse of separation from the catholick church , I had not the least respect to Presbyterians or Independents as such , nor to the differences betweē them , which alone our Author out of his zeale to truth and peace attends unto : If he will fasten the guilt of Schisme on any on the account of separation from the Catholick church , let him prove that that church is not made up of the universality of professors of the Gospell throughout the world , under the limitations expressed ; that the union of it as such , doth not consist in the profession of the truth ; and that the breach of that union whereby a man ceases to be a member of that Church is Schismes , otherwise to tell me that I am a Sectary , a Schismatick , to fill up his pages with vaine surmizes and supposalls , to talke of a difference and schsme among the members of the catholick church , or the like impertinencies , will never farther his discourse among men , either rationall , solid , or judicious . All that ensues to the end of this chapter is about the ordination of ministers , wherein however he hath beē pleased to deal with me in much bitternesse of spirit , with many clamours and false Accusations ; I am glad to find him ( p. 120. ) renouncing ordination from the Authority of the church of Rome as such , for I am assured , that by his so doing , he can claime it no waie from , by , or through Rome ; for nothing came to us from thence , but what came , in and by the Authority of that Church .

CHAP. IX .

WE are now gathering towards what seems of most immediate concernment as to this Reverend Authors undertaking ; namely to treate of the nature of a particular church , its union and the breach of that union ; the description I give of such a church is this ; It is a society of men called by the word to the obedience of the faith in Christ , and joint performance of the worship of God in the same individuall ordinances according to the order by him prescribed . This I professe to be a generall description of its nature , waving all contests about accurate definitions , which usually tend very little to the discovery or establishment of truth : after some canvassing of this description , our Author tells us that he grants it to be the definition of a particular church , which is more then I intended it for ; only he adds that according to this description , their churches are as true as ours ; which I presume by this time he knowes was not the thing in Question . His ensuing discourse of the will of Christ , that men should joine not all in the same individuall congregation , but in this or that , is by me wholly assented ūto , and the matter of it contended for by me , as I am able ; what he is pleased to adde about explicite covenanting and the like , I am not at all for the present concerned in ; I purposely waved all expressions concerning it , one way or other , that I might not involve the businesse in hand with any unnecessary contests ; it is possible somewhat hereafter may be spoken to that subject , in a tendency unto the reconciliation of the parties at variance . His argument in the close of the Section for a Presbyterian church from Acts 20. 17. because there is mention of more elders then one in that Church , and therefore it was not one single congregation I do not understand ; I think no one single congregation is wholly compleated according to the mind of Christ , unlesse there be more elders then one it ; there should be elders in every Church ; and for my part , so we could once agree practically in the matter of our churches , I am under some apprehension that it were no impossible thing to reconcile the whole difference , as to a Presbyterian church , or a single congregation . And though I be reproved a new for my pains , I may offer ere long to the candid consideration of godly men , something that may provoke others of better abilities and more leasure , to endeavour the carrying on of so good a work . Proceeding to the consideration of the unity of this church , he takes notice of three things laid down by me , previously to what I was farther to assert ; all which he grants to be true , but yet will not let them passe without his animadversions . The two first are that 1. a man may be a member of the Catholick invisible church , and 2 of the visible Catholick church , and yet not be joyned to a particular Church . These , as I said , he ownes to be true , but askes how I can reconcile this with what I said before , namely , that the members of the Catholick visible Church are initiated into the profession of the faith by Baptisme ; but where lies the difference ? why saith he , Baptisme according to his principles is an ordinance of worship only to be enjoyed in a particular Church , whilst he will grant ( what yet he doth denie , but will be forced to grant ) that a minister is a minister to more then his owne church , even to the Catholick Church , and may administer Baptisme out of a particular church , as Phillip did to the Eunuch . A. How well this Author is acquainted with my principles , hath been already manifested ; as to his present mistake I shall not complaine , seeing that some occasion may be administred unto it , from an expression of mine , at least as it is printed , of which I shall speak afterwards ; for the present he may be pleased to take notice , that I am so far from confining Baptisme subjectively to a particular congregation , that I do not believe that any member of a particular church was ever regularly baptized : Baptisme precedes admission into Church membership , as to a particular Church ; the subject of it , is professing believers and their seed ; as such they have right unto it , whither they be joined to any particular church or no ; suitable to this judgment hath been my constant and uninterrupted practise . I desire also to know , who told him that I deny a minister to be a minister to more then his own Church , or averred that he may perform ministeriall duty only in and towards the members of his own congregation : for so much as men are appointed the objects of the dispensation of the word I grant a man in the dispensation of it to act ministerially towards not only the members of the Catholick church , but the visible members of the world also in contradistinction thereunto :

The third thing laid down by me , whereunto also he assentes is , that every believer is oblieged to join himselfe to some one of those Churches , that there he may abide in Doctrine and fellowship and breaking of bread and prayer : but my reasons whereby I prove this , he saies he likes not so well : and truly I cannot helpe it ; I have little hope he should like any thing well which is done by me : Let him be pleased to furnish me with better , and I shall make use of them ; but yet when he shall attempt so to doe , it is odds but that one or other , will find as many flawes in them as he pretends to do in mine ; But this , he saith he shall make use of , and that , he shall make advantage of , and I know not what , as if he were playing a prize upon a stage . The third reason is that which he likes worst of all , and I like the businesse the better , that what he understands least , that he likes worst ; it is , that Christ hath given no direction for any duty of worship , meerly and purely of soveraign institution , but only to them and by them who are so joined ; Hereupon he askes : 1. is Baptisme a a part of worship ? A : yes , and to be so performed by them , that is a Minister in , or of them ; I fear my expression in this place lead him to his whole mistake in this matter : 2. prayer and reading of the word in private families are they no duty of worship : An : Not meerly and purely of soveraign institution . 3. Is preaching to convert heathens a duty of worship ? not ( as described ) in all cases ; when it is , it is to be performed by a minister ; and so he knowes my answer to his next invidious inquiry , relating to my own person ; Against my fourth Reason taken from the Apostles care to leave none out of this order , who were converted , where it was possible : he gives in the instance of the Eunuch , and others converted where there were not enough to ingage in such societies ; that , is in them with whom it was impossible : my fift is from Christ's providing of officers for these Churches ; This also he saith is weak as the rest , for first , Christ provided officers at first for the Catholick Church , that is the Apostles . 2. all ordinary officers are set first in the Catholicke Church , and every minister is first a minister to the Catholick Church , and if ( saith he ) he deny this , he knowes where to find a learned Antagonist .

A. But see what it is to have a mind to dispute : will he deny that Christ appointed officers for particular Churches , or if he should have a mind to do it , will his arguments evince any such thing ; Christ appointed Apostles , Catholick officers , therefore he did not appoint officers for particular Churches ; though he commanded that elders should be ordained in every Church ; Pastors and teachers are set first in the Catholick church , therefore Christ hath not ordained officers for particular Churches ; But this is the way with our Author ! if any word offers it selfe , whence it is possible to draw out the mention of any thing , that is , or hath at any time been in difference between Presbiterians and Independents , that presently is run away withall ; for my part I had not the least thought of the controversie which to no purpose at all he would here lead me to : but yet I must tell him that my judgment is , that ordinary officers are firstly to be ordained in particular churches : and as I know where to find a learned Antagonist as to that particular , so I do , in respect of every thing that I affirme or deny in the businesse of Religion , and yet I blesse the Lord I am not in the least disquieted or shaken in my adherence to the truth I professe .

My last reason , he saith , is fallacious and inconsequent , and that because he hath put an inference upon it never intended in it . Now the position that these reasons were produced to confirm being true , and so acknowledged by himselfe , because it is a truth that indeed I lay some more then ordinary weight upon , it being of great use in the daies wherein we live : I would humbly intreat this Reverend Author to send me his reasons whereby it may be confirmed , and I shall promise him if they be found of more validity then those which according to my best skill I have allready used , he shall obtain many thanks , and much respect for his favour ;

What he remarks upon , or adds to my next discourse about instituted worship in generall , I shall not need to insist on : onely by the way I cannot but take notice of that which he calls a chiefe piece of Independencie , and that is ! that those who are joined in church fellowship are so confined that they cannot or may not worship God in the same ordinances in other churches : how this comes to be a cheife peice of Independency , I know ▪ not . It is contrary to the known practise of all the churches of England that I am acquainted with , which he calls Independents . For my part I know but one man of that mind , and he is no child in these things .

For the ensuing discourse about the intercision of ordinances , it being a matter of great importance , and inquired into by me meerly in reference to the Roman Apostacy , it needs a more serious disquisition , then any thing at present administred by our Author will give occasion unto : possibly in convenient time I may offer somewhat farther towards the investigation of the mind of God therein : every thing in this present contest is so warped to the petty difference between Presbyterians and Independents , that no faire progresse nor opportunity for it can be afforded : If it may be , in my next debate of it , I shall wave al mentiō of those meaner differences : & as I remember I have not insisted on them in what I have allready proposed to this purpose , so possibly the next time I may utterly escape . For the present , I do not doubt but the spirit of God in the Scripture , is furnished with sufficient authority to erect new churches , and set up the celebration of all ordinances on supposition that there was an intercision of them . To declare the way of his exerting his Authority to this purpose , with the obviating of all objections to the contrary , is not a matter to be tossed up and down in this scambling chase : and I am not a litle unhappy , that this Reverend Person was in the dark to my designe and aime all along , which hath intangled this dispute with so many impertinences ; But however I shall answer a question which he is pleased to put to me in particular : he askes me then whither I do not think in my conscience that there were no true churches in England untill the Brownists our fathers , the Anabaptists our elder brothers , and our selves arose and gathered new Churches . With thanks for the civility of the inquiry in the manner of its expression , I answer no! I have no such thoughts , and his pretence of my insinuation of any such thing , is most vaine , as also is his insultation thereupon ; truly if men will in all things take liberty to speak what they please , they have no reason but to think that they may at one time or other heare that which will displease ;

Having investigated the nature of a particular Church , I proceed in my treatise of Schisme , to inquire after the union of it , wherein it doth consist , and what is the breach thereof ; The summe is the joint consent of the members to walke together in celebration of the same numericall ordinances , according to the mind of Jesus Christ , is that wherein the union of such a Church doth consist . This is variously excepted against : and I know not what disputes about an implicit and explicit covenant , of Specificating forms , of the practise of new and old England , of Admission of church members , of the right of the members of the Catholick church to all ordinances , of the miscarriage of the Independents , of church Matriculations and such like things , not once considered by me in my proposall of the matter in hand ; are fallen upon . By the way he fals upon my judgment about the inhabitation of the Spirit , calls it an error , and saies so it hath been reputed by all that are orthodox ; raising terrible suspitions and intimations of judgments on our way from God , by my falling into that error ; when yet I say no more then the Scripture saith in expresse tearms forty times , for which I referre him to what I have written on that subject , wherein I have also the concurrence of Polanus , Bucanus , Dorchetus with sundry others Lutherans and Calvinists ; It may be when he hath seriously weighed what I have offered to the clearing of that glorious truth of the Gospell , he may entertain more gentle thoughts both concerning it and mee .

The rest of the chapter I have passed thorow , once and againe , and cannot fix on any thing worthy of farther debate : A difference is attempted to be found in my description of the union of a particular Church , in this and another place : because in one place I require the consent of the members to walke together , in another mention only their so doing , when the mention of that only , was necessary in that place , not speaking of it absolutely , but as it is the difference of such a church from the church Catholick , some impropriety of expression is pretended to be discovered : ( id populus curat scilicet : ) which yet is a pure mistake of his , not considering unto what especiall end and purpose the words are used : He repeats sundry things as in opposition to me , that are things laid down by my selfe and granted : Doth he attempt to prove that the union of a Church is not rightly stated : he confesseth the form of such a Church consists in the obscrvance and performance of the same ordinances of worship numerically : I aske , is it the command of Christ that believers should so doe ? is not their obedience to that command , their consent so to do ? are not particular churches instituted of Christ ? is it not the duty of every believer to join himselfe to some one of them ? was not this acknowledged above ? can any one do so without his consenting to do so ? is this consent any thing but his voluntary submission to the ordinances of worship therein ? As an expresse consent and subjection to Christ in generall is required to constitute a man a member of the Church Catholick visible ; so if the Lord Jesus hath appointed any particular church for the celebration of his ordinances ; is not their consent who are to walke in them , necessary thereunto ? But the Topick of an explicite covenant , presenting its selfe with an advantage , to take up some leaves , would not be waved , though nothing at all to the purpose in hand . After this , my confession made in as much condescension unto compliance as I could well imagine , of the use of greater assēblies , is examined , and excepted against , as being in my esteem , he saith , though it be not so indeed , a matter of prudence only : But I know full well , that he knows not what esteeme or disesteem I have of sundry things of no lesse importance . The consideration of my postulata , proposed in a preparation to what was to be insisted on , in the next Chapter , as influenced from the foregoing dissertations alone remaines , and indeed alone deserve our notice .

My first is this . The departing of any man or men from any particular Church , as to the communion peculiar to such a Church , is no where called Schisme , nor is so in the nature of the thing it selfe , but is a thing to be judged and recieve a title according to the circumstances of it ; to this he adjoines ; this is not the Question , a simple secessiō of a man or mē upon some just occasion is not called schisme , but to make causless differences in a Church , and then separating from it , as no Church , denying communion with it , hath the nature and name of schisme in all mens judgments but his own . An. What Question doth our Reverend Author meane ? I feare he is still fancying of the difference between Presbyterians and Independents , and squaring all things by that Imagination ; whether it be a Question stated to his mind or no , I cannot tell , but it is an assertion expressive of mine owne , which he may do well to disprove if he can . Who told him that raising causlesse differences in a Church , and then separating from it , is not in my judgment schisme ? May I possibly retaine hopes of making my selfe understood by this Reverend Author ? I suppose though , that a pertinacious abiding in a mistake , is neither schisme nor heresy . And so this may be passed over .

My second is , one Church refusing to hold that communion with another , which ought to be between them , is not Schisme properly so called . The reply hereunto is twofold ▪ 1. That one Church may raise differences in , and with another church , and so cause Schisme . 2 That the Independents deny any communion of churches , but what is prudentiall , and so that communion cannot be broken . To the first I have spoken sufficiently before ; the latter is but an harping on the same string : I am not speaking of Independent churches , nor upon the principles of Independents , much lesse on them , which are imposed on them ; Let the Reverend Author suppose or aver what communion of churches he pleaseth , my position holds in reference to it , nor can he disprove it ; however for my part I am not acquaintcd with those Independents , who allow no communion of churches , but what is prudentiall ; and yet it is thought , that I know as many , as this Reverend Author doth .

Upon the last proposall we are wholly agreed ; so that I shall not need to repeat it ; only he gives me a sad farewell at the close of the Chapter , which must be taken notice of ; is ( saith he ) not the design of his book to prove if he could , and condemne us as no churches , let the world be judge ; and I say let all the saints of God judge ; and Jesus Christ will judge whither I have not outragious injury done me in this imputation ; but , saith he , unless this be proved , he can never justify his separatiō . Sr. when your & our brethren told the Bishops , they thanked God they were none of them , and defied the Prelaticall church , did they make a separation or no ; were they guilty of Schisme ? I suppose you will not say so : nor do I ; yet have I done any such thing in reference to you or your churches ; I have no more separated from you , then you have done from me ; and as for the distance which is between us upon our disagreement about the way of reformation , let all the churches of God judge , on which side it hath been managed with more breach of love , on yours or mine ; Let me assure you Sir , through the mercy of God in Jesus Christ , I can freely forgive unto you all your reproaches , revilings , hard censurings , and endeavours to expose me to publick obloquie , and yet hope that I may have before we dy , a place in your heart and prayers .

CHAP. X. Independency no Schisme .

WE are come now to the chapter that must do the work intended , or else operam & oleum perdidimus ; Independentisme a great Schisme , is the title of it ; what this Independentisme is , he doth neither here declare , nor in any other part of his book ; nor do I know what it is that he intends by it ; I heare indeed from him that it is a schisme , a Sect , but of what peculiar import , or wherein it consists , he hath not declared ; I suppose he would have it taken for separation from true Churches , but neither doth the notion of the name , though invidiously broached and disavowed by them , to whom it is ascribed , import any such thing ; nor is the thing it selfe owned by them , with whom he pretends to have to do : I find indeed that he tells us , that all Sectaries are Independents ; Anabaptists , Seekers , Ranters , Quakers . Doth he expect that I should undertake their defence ? what if it should appear , that I have done more against them then our Reverend Author , and many of his brethren joined with him ; he may perhaps be willing to load my selfe and those which he is pleased to call my associats , my party , I know not what , with their evills and miscarriages . But is this done as becomes a Christian , a Minister , a Brother ? what security hath he , that had he been the only judge and disposer of things in Religion in this nation , if I and my associats had been sent to plant Churches among the Indians , that he should have prevented the eruption of the errors and abominations which we have been exercised withall in this generation , unlesse he had sent for Duke D'Alva's instruments to work his ends by ? and indeed there is scarce any Sect in the nation , but had they their desires , they would take that course . This may be done by any that are uppermost if they please . But how shall we know what it is he intends by Independentisme : All ( it may be ) that are not Presbyterians are Independents . Among these some professedly separate , both frō them & us , ( for there are none that separate from them , but withall they separate from us that I know of ) because , as they say , neither theirs nor ours are true Churches ; we grant them to be true Churches , but withall denie that we separate from them ; is it possible at once to defend both these sects of men ? is it possible at once with the same arguments to charge them ? The whole discourse then of our Reverend Author being uniforme , it can concerne but one of these sects of Independents : which it is , any man may judge , that takes the least view of his treatise . He deals with them that unchurch their Churches , unminister their ministers , disanull their ordinances , leaving them Churchless , officerlesse , and in the like sad condition : Is this Independentisme a Schism ? though that it is properly so called , he cānot prove , yet I hope he did not expect , that I should plead for it ; what I shall do in this case , I professe , well I know not . I here denie that I unminister their ministers , unchurch their Churches ; hath this Author any more to say to me , or those of my perswasion ? doth not this whole discourse proceed upon a supposition that it is otherwise with them with whom he hath to do ? only I must tell him by the way , that if he suppose by this concession , that I justifie and owne their way , wherein they differ from the congregationall ministers in England , to be of Christs institution , or that I grant all things to be done regularly among them , and according to the mind of Christ , therein I must professe he is mistaken . In breife by Independentisme he intends a separation from true Churches , with condemning them to be no churches , and their Ministers no Ministers , and their ordinances none , or Antichristian ; whatever becomes of the nature of schisme , I disavow the appearing as an advocate in the behalfe of this Independentisme . If by Independentisme he understand the peaceable proceeding of any of the people of God in this nation in the severall parts of it , to joine themselves by their free consent to walk together in the observation and celebration of all the ordinanees of Christ appointed to be observed and celebrated in particular churches , so to reforme themselves from the disorders wherein they were intangled , being not able in some things to joine in that way of reformation , which many godlie ministers cōmonly called Presbyterians , have ingaged in , and seek to promote , without judging & condemning thē as to the whole of their station or ordināces ; If this I say be intended by Independentisme , when the Reverend Author shall undertake to prove it Schisme , having not in this book spoken one word or title to it , his discourse will be attended unto . This whole chapter then being spent against them , who deny them to be true Churches , and defend separation , I marvaile what can be said unto it by me , or how I come to be concerned in it , who grant them true Churches , and denie separation .

But our Reverend Author , knowing that if this bottome be taken from under him , he hath no foundation for any thing he asserts , thought it not sufficient to charg me over and over with what is here denyed , but at length attempts to make it good frō mine own words ; which if he doth effect make & good , I confesse he changes the whole nature and state of the dispute in hand : Let ut see thenhow he answers this undertaking .

From those words of mine , the reformation of any church , or any thing in it , is the reducing of it to its primitive institution : approving the assertion as true , he labors to evince that I deny their Churches to be true Churches ; how so I pray ; why we erect new churches out of no Churches ; and it had been happy for England if we had all gone to do this work among the Indians . What will prove Englands happinesse or unhappinesse , the day will manifest ; this is but mans day and judgment . He is coming who will not judg by the seeing of the eye , nor by the hearing of the ear ; In the mean time , we blesse God , & think all England hath caus to blesse God , what ever become of us , that he and our brethren of the same mind with him , in the things of God , have their liberty to preach the gospell , and carry on the work of reformation in their native soyle , and are not sent into the ends of the earth , as many of ours have been . But how doth our gathering of Churches denie them to be true churches ? Doth our granting them to be true Churches , also grant that all the Saints in England are members of their Churches ? It is notoriously known , that it is and was otherwise , and that when they , and we began : to reform , thousands of the people of God in these nations , had no reason to suppose themselves to belong to one particular Church rather then another . They lived in one parish , heard in another , removed up and down for their advantage , and were in bondage on that account all their daies .

But he saies in some words following I discover my very heart : I cannot but by the way tell him , that it is a sufficient evidence of his unacquaintednesse with me , that he thinks there is need of searching , and racking my words to discover my very heart , in any thing that belongs ( though in never so remote a distance ) to the worship of God . All that know me , know how open and free , I am in these things , how ready on all occasions to declare my whole heart ; it is neither fear nor favour can influence me unto another frame : But what are the words that make this noble discovery : They are these that follow : When any Society or combination of men ( what ever hitherto it hath been esteemed ) is not capable of such a reduction , and revocation ( that is to its primitive institution ) I suppose I shall never provoke any wise or sober person , if I professe I cannot look on such a society as a church of Christ : His reply hereunto is the hinge upon which his whole discourse turneth , and must therefore be considered . Thus then he ; is not this , reader , at once to unchurch all the churches of England since the reformation ? for it is known , during the raign of the prelates they were not capable of that reduction : and what capacity our Churches are now in for that reduction , partly by want of power and assistance from the magistrate , without which some dare not set upon a reformation , for fear of a praemunire , partly by our divisions amongst our selves , fomented by he knowes whom , he cannot but see as well as we lament . And hereupon he proceeds with sundry complaints of my dealing with them . And now Chistian Reader what shall we say to these things ? A naked supposition , of no strength , nor weight , that will not hold in any thing or case , namely that a thing is not to be judged capable of that , which by some externall force it is withheld from , is the sole bottome of all this charge . The Churches of England were capable of that reduction to their primitive institution , under the prelates , though in some things hindred by them , from an actuall Reducement ; so they are now in sundry places , where the work is not so much as attempted ; the sluggards feild is capable of being weeded ; the present pretended want of capacity from the non-assistance of the magistrate , whilest perfect liberty for Reformation is given , and the worke in its severall degrees incouraged , will be found to be a sad plea for some , when things come to be tryed out by the rule of the Gospell . And for our divisions I confesse I begin to discover somewhat more by whom they are fomented , then I did four daies agoe : for the matter it selfe . I desire our Reverend Author to take notice , that I judg every church capable of a reduction to its primitive institution , which , all outward hinderances being removed , and all assistances granted , that are necessary for reformation according to the Gospell , may be reduced into the forme and order appointed unto a particular church by Jesus Christ ; and where any society is not so capable , let them call themselves what they please , I shall advise those therein , who have personally a due right to the priviledges purchased for them by Jesus Christ , in the way of their administration by him appointed , to take some other peaceable course to make themselves partakers of them ; and forgiving this advise I neither dread the anger nor Indignation of any man living in the world : And so I suppose by this time the Author knowes what is become of his , quod erat demonstrandum ; and here in room of it I desire him to accept of this return .

Those who in the judgment of charity were and continue , members of the church catholick invisible by vertue of their union with Christ the head thereof ; and members of the generall visible church , by their due profession of the savings truths of the gospell , and subjection to Christ Jesus their King and Saviour according to them , do walke in love and concord in the particular churches , whereof by their own consent and choice they are members , not judging and condemning other particular churches of Christ , where they are not members as they are such , as to their stationand priviledges , being ready for all instituted communion with thē , as revealed are not according to any gospell rule , nor by any principles acknowledged amongst Christians , to be judged or condemned as guilty of Schisme ; but such are all they for whom , under any consideration what ever , I have pleaded as to their immunity from this charge , in my treatise of Schisme ; therefore they are not to be judged so guilty . If you please , you may adde , Quod er at demonstratum .

I shall not digresse to a recharge upon this Reverend Author , and those of the same profession with him , as to their mistakes and miscarriages in the work of Reformation , nor discusse their waies and principles , wherein I am not satisfied as to their proceduce : I yet hope for better things , then to be necessitated to carry on the defensative of the way wherein I walk by opposing theirs . It is true that he who stands upon meer defence , is thought to stand upon none at all : but I wait for better things from men , then their hearts will yet allow them , to think of . I hope the Reverend Author thinks , that as I have reasons wherewith I am satisfied as to my own way , so I have those that are of the same weight with me against him . But what ever he may surmise I have no mind to foment the divisions that are amongst us ; hence I willingly bear all his imputations without retortion . I know in part how the case is in the world . The greatest chargers have not alwaies the most of truth ; witnesse Papists , Lutherans , Prelutists , Anabaptists . I hope I can say in sincerity , I am for peace ; though others make themselves ready for war .

But we must proceed a litle further , though as to the cause by me undertaken to be managed , causelessely . The discourse of our Author from the place fixed on , wherein he faintly indeavoured to make good the foundation of this chapter , which I have allready considered , consists of two parts : 1. His Animadversions on some principles which I lay down , as necessary to be stated aright and determined , that the question about gathering churches may be clearly and satisfactorily debated . Some of them he saies have been handled by others ; which if it be a rule of silence to him , and me , it might have prevented this tedious debate : what ever his thoughts may be of my pamphlet , I do not fear to affirm of his Treatile , that I have found nothing in it , from the beginning to the ending , but what hath lien neglected on booksellers stalls for above these seven years . For the rest of those principles , which he excepts against , as he thinks meet , I leave their consideration , to that farther enquiry , which the Lord assisting I have destined them unto . The way of gathering churches upon a supposition of their antecedency to officers , he saies is very pretty , and loads it with the difficulty of mens comming to be baptized in such a case : but as I , can tell him of that which is neither true , nor pretty , in the practise of some whom he knowes , or hath reason so to do , so I can assure him that we are not concerned in his objection about baptisme , and with them who may possibly be so , it is a ridiculous thing , to think it an objection . And for that part of my enquiry , whether the Church be before ordinary officers , or they before it , as sleight as he is pleased to make of it , it will be found to lie very near the bottome of all our differences , and the right stating of it , to conduce to the composure and determination of them . His charges and reflexions which he casts about in his passage , are not now to be further mentioned ; we have had them over and over ; indeed we have had little else : If strong , vehement , passionate affirmations , complaints , charges , falfe imputations , and the like , will amount to a demonstration in this businesse , he hath demonstrated Independentisme to be a great Schisme .

He shuts up his discourse as he began it ; reciting my words by adding , interposing , perverting , commenting , enquiring , he makes them speak what he pleases , and compasses the ends of his delight upon them . What contentment he hath received in his so doing , I know not ; nor shall I expresse what thoughts I have , of such a course of proceedure : This only I shall say , it is a facile way of writing treatises and proving what ever men have a mind unto .

My last taske is to look back to the beginning of this last chapter , and to gather up in our passage , what may seem to respect the businesse in hand , and so the whole matter will be dismissed . The plea insisted on for immunity from the charge of Schisme , with reference to the Episcopall Government of the Church of England , and the constitution which under it , it is pretended to have had , he passes over ; though on sundry accounts his concernments ly as deeply in it as in any thing pleaded In that treatise . The things he is pleased to take notice of , as far as they tend in the least to the issue of the debate between us , shall be reviewed . Considering the severall senses wherein that expression , the church of England , may be taken , I manifest in my treatise , in which of them , and how far , we acknowledg our selves to have been , and to continue members of the Church of England . The first is as it comprises the elect believers in England : what the unity of the Church in this sense is , was before evinced ; our desire to be found members of this Church , with our indeavour to keep the unity of it in the bond of peace , was declared . I am greived to repeat our Reverend Authors exceptions to this declaration ; saies he , unlesse he think , there are no members of this church in England , but those that are of his formed particular churches , I fear he will be found to break the union that ought to be between them : And why so I pray ? The union of the members of the church in this sense , consists in their joint union to & with Christ their head by one spirit . What hath the Reverend Author to charge upon me with reference thereunto ? Let him speak out to the utmost ; yea I have some reason to think that he will scarce spare , where he can strike ; God forbid that I should think all the members of the Catholick Church in England to be comprised either jointly or severally in their Churches or ours , seeing it cannot be avoided but you will keep up those notes of division . I doubt not but there be many thousands of them who walk neither with you nor us . He adds , that by gathering saints of the first magnitude we do what lies in us , to make the Invisible Church visible : It is confessed , we do so ; yea we know that that church which is invisible in some respect , and under one formall consideration , is visible as to its profession , which it makes unto salvation . This , with all that lies in us , we draw them out unto : what he addes about the churches being elect , and the uncomely parts of it , which they may be for a season who are elect believers , because it must be spoken ; are uselesse cavills . For the scornfull rejection of what I affirm concerning our love to all the members of this church , and readinesse to tender them satisfaction in case of offence , with his insinuatiō of my want of modesty and truth in asserting these thoughts , because he will one day know , that the words he so despises , were spoken in sincerity , and with the reverence of the great God , & out of love to all his Saints , I shall not farther vindicate them ; such hay and stubble must needs burn .

My next profession of our Relation to the Church of England , in respect of that denomination given to the body of professours in this Nation , cleaving to the Doctrine of the Gospell , here preached and established by Law , as the publike profession of this Nation . But he tels me first : 1. That many Independent Churches in this Nation , are grosly apostatized from that doctrine , and so are hereticall . 2. That the worship was professed and protested , and established as well as the doctrine , and that we are all departed from it , and so are schismaticall : for we hold communion with them , he sayes in the same doctrine , but not in the same worship . Answer . His first exception ariseth from the advantage he makes use of , from his large use of the word Independent , which will serve him in his sense for what end he pleaseth . In the sense before declared his charge is denyed ; Let him prove it by instance if he be able : surely God hath not given orthodox men leave to speak what they please , without due regard to love and truth . 2. As to the worship established in this nation by law , ( he means the way of worship , for the substantials of it we are all agreed in ) I suppose he will not say a relinquishment of the practice of it is schisme ; if he do , I know what use some men will make of his affirmation , though I know not how he will free himselfe from being schismaticall ; for his renewed charg of schisme , I cannot I confesse be moved at it , proceeding from him , who neither doth , nor will know what it is . His next indeavour is to make use of another concession of mine , concerning our receiving of our regeneration and new birth by the preaching of the word in England ; saying , could they make use of our preaching &c. but the truth is , when the most of us by the free grace of God received our new birth through the preaching of the word , neither they , nor we , as to the practice of our waies , were in England ; so that their concernment as such , in the concession is very small ; and we hope since in respect of others , our owne ministry hath not been altogether fruitlesse , though we make no comparison with them .

In rendring of the next passage which is concerning anabaptists and anabaptisme , I shall not contend with him ; he hath not in the least impaired the truth of what I assert in reference to them and their way . I cannot but take notice of that passage which for the substance of it hath so often occurred , and that is this ; doth not himselfe labor in this booke to prove that the administration of ordinances in our assemblies is null , our ordination null and antichristian . For the proofe of which suggestion he referrs his Reader to page 197 of my book . I confesse seeing this particular quotation , I was somewhat surprised , and began to feare that some expression of mine ( though contrary to my professed judgment ) might have given countenance to this mistake , and so be pleaded as a Justification of all the uncharitablenesse and something else , wherewith his book is replenished ; but turning to the place I was quickly delivered from my trouble , though I must ingeniously confesse , I was cast into another which I shall not now mention .

Page 167. we arrive at that which alone almost I expected would have been insisted on , and quite contrary thereto , it is utterly waved ; namely the wholebusinesse of a nationall Church , upon which account indeed all the pretence of the charge this reverend Author is pleased to mannage , doth arise . Take that out of the way , and certainly they , and we are upon even termes ; and if we will be judged by them who were last in possession of the Reiglement of that church , upon supposition that there is such a church still , they are no more Interested in it then we , yea are as guilty of schisme from it as we . But that being set aside and particular churches only remaining , It will be very difficult for him to raise the least pretence of his great charge . But let us consider what he thinks meete to fasten on , in that discourse of mine about a nationall church . The first thing is my inquiry , whether the denyall of the Institution of a nationall church ( which he pleads not for ) doth not deny in consequence that we had either ordinances or ministry amongst us : to which I say , that though it seemes so to do , yet indeed it doth not , because there was then another church state , even that of particular churches amongst us , with many kind reflections of my renouncing my ministry and rejecting of my jejune and empty vindication of their ministry ( which yet is the very same that himselfe fixes on ) he asks me how I can in my conscience beleive , that there were any true ministers in this church in the time of its being nationall , and so proceeds to inferre from hence my denying of all ministry and ordinances among them . Truly though I were more to be despised then I am ( if that be possible ) yet it were not common ▪ prudence for any man to take so much paines to make me his enemy , whether I will or no . He cannot but know that I deny utterly , that ever we had indeed , whatever men thought , a nationall church ; for I grant no such thing , as a nationall church in the present sense contended about . That in England under the rule of the prelates , when they looked on the church as nationall , there were true churches , and true ministers , though in much disorder as to the way of entring into the ministry and Dispensing of ordinances , I grant freely ; which is all this reverend Author , If I understand him , pleads for ; and this he saies I was unwilling to acknowledge , lest I should thereby condemne my selfe as a schismatick . Truly , in the many sad differences and divisions that are in the world amongst Christians , I have not been without sad and jealous thoughts of heart , lest by any doctrine or practise of mine I should occasionally contribute any thing unto them ; If it hath been otherwise with this Author , I envy not his frame of spirit . But I must freely say , that having together with them , weighed the reasons for them ; I have been very little moved with the clamorous accusations , and insinuations of this Author . In the meane time , if it be possible to give him satisfaction , I here let him know , that I assent unto that summe of all he hath to say , as to the Church of England , namely that the true and faithfull ministers , with the people in their severall congregations , administring the true ordinances of Jesus Christ , whereof baptisme is one , was and is the true Church state of England , from which I am not separated ; nor do I think that some addition of humane prudence , or Imprudence can disanull the ordinances of Jesus Christ . upon the disavower made of any other nationall Church state , and the assertion of this to answer all intents and purposes , I suppose now that the Reverend Author knowes that it is incumbent on him to prove , that we have been members of some of these particular Churches in due order , according to the mind of Christ , to all intents and purposes of Church membership , and that we have in our Individuall persons raised causelesse differences in those particular churches whereof we were members respectively , and so separated from them , with the condemnation of them ; or else according to his owne principles he failes in his brotherly conclusion : {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} . I suppose the reader is weary of pursuing things so little to our purpose : if he will hear any further , that Independents are schismaticks , that the setting up of their way hath opened a door to all evills and confusions , that they have separated from all churches , and condemne all churches in the world but their owne ; that they have hindred Reformation and the setting up of the Presbyterian Church ; that being members of our Churches , as they are members of the nation , because they are borne in it , yet they have deserted them ; that they gather Churches which they pretend to be spick and span new ; they have separated from us , that they countenance Quakers , and all other Sectaries , that they will reforme a nationall church whether men will or no , though they say that they only desire to reforme themselves , and plead for liberty to that end .

If any man I say have a mind to read or heare of this any more , let him read the rest of this chapter , or else converse with some persons whom I can direct him to , who talke at this wholsome rate all the day long .

What seems to be my particular concernment , I shall a little further attend unto . Some words ( for that is the manner of mannaging this controversie ) are culled out from pag. 259. 260. to be made the matter of farther contest . Thus they lie in my Treatise . As the not giving a mans selfe up unto any way , and submiting to any establishment pretended or pleaded to be of Christ , which he hath not light for , and which he was not by any act of his owne formerly ingaged in , cannot with any colour or pretence of reason be reckoned to him for schisme , though he may if he persist in his refusall prejudice his owne edification ; so no more can a mans peaceable relinquishment of the ordinary communion of one Church in all its relations be so esteemed . These words have as yet unto me a very harmelesse aspect ; but our Reverend Author is sharp-sighted , and sees I know not what monsters in them : for first ( saith he ) here he seems to me to be a very Sceptick in his way of independency : why so I pray ? This will gratify all sects , Quakers , and all with a toleration : how I pray ? it is Schisme , not toleration we are treating about . But this leaves them to judge of , as well as others , what is , and what is not according to the mind of Christ , why pray Sr. who is appointed to judge finally for them ? why then should they be denied their liberty ? but is that the thing under consideration ? had you concluded that their not submitting to what they have not light for its institution , is not properly Schisme , you should have seen how far I had been concerned in the inference : but excursions unto Quakers &c. are one topick of such discourses . But now he askes me one Question , it seems to try whither I am a Sceptick or no ; whether ( saith he ) does he believe his owne way to be the only true way of Christ , for he hath instituted but one way , having run from and renounced all other waies in this nation . I promise you this is a hard Question ; and not easily answered . If I deny it , he will say I am a Sceptick , and other things also will be brought in : if I affirme it , it may be he will say that I condemne their churches for no churches , and the like : it is good to be wary when a man hath to deale with wise men ; how if I should say that our way and their way is for the substance of them , one way , and so I cannot say that my way is the only true way exclusively to theirs : I suppose this may do pretty well . But I fear this will scarce give satisfactiō , & yet I know not well how I can go any farther ; yet this I will adde ; I doindeed believe , that wherein their way and our way differ , our way is according to the mind of Christ and not theirs : and this I am ready at any time ( God assisting ) personally to maintaine to him : and as for my running from waies of religion , I dare againe tell him , these reproaches and calumnies become him not at all . But he proceeds , if so , ( saith he ) is not every man bound to come into it , and not upon every conceived new light to relinquish it . Truly I think Mr. C. himselfe is bound to come into it , and yet I do not think that his not so doeing makes him a Schismatick : and as for relinquishment I assert no more , then what he himselfe concludes to be lawfull .

And thus Christian Reader I have given thee a briefe account of all things of any importance that I could meet withall in this treatise , and of many which are of very little ; if thou shalt be pleased to compare my treatise of Schisme with the refutation of it , thou wilt quickly see , how short this is , of that which it pretends to : how untouched my principles do abide , and how the most materiall parts of my discourse are utterly passed by , without any notice taken of them . The truth is , in the way chosen by this Reverend Author to proceed in , men may multiply writings to the worlds end , without driving any controversy to an issue ; descanting and harping on words , making exceptions to particular passages and the like , is an easy and facile , and to some men a pleasant labour : what small Reason our Author had to give his book the title it bears , unlesse it were to discover his designe , I hope doth by this time appeare . Much of the proofe of it lies in the repeated asseverations of it , it is so , and it is so . If he shall be pleased to send me word of one argument tending that way , that is not founded in an evident mistake , I will promise him , if I live , a reconsideration of it .

In the mean time I humbly beg of this Reverend Author , that he would review in the presence of the Lord the frame of spirit , wherein he wrote this charge ; as also that he would take into his thoughts all the reproaches , and all that obloquy he hath endeavoured to load me causlesly and falsly withall . As for my selfe , my name , reputation , and esteeme with the Churches of God , to whom he hath indeavoured to render me odious , I commit the whole concernment of them to him , whose presence through grace I have hitherto injoyed , and whose promise I leane upon , that he will never leave me nor forsake me . I shall not complaine of my usage : but what am I ? of the usage of many pretious Saints and holy Churches of Jesus Christ , to him that lives and sees , any farther then by begging that it may not be laid to his charge : and if so meane a person as I am , can in any way be serviceable to him , or to any of the churches that he pleads for , in reference to the Gospell of Christ , I hope my life will not be deare to me that I may effect it ; and I shall not cease to pray that both he and those who promoted this worke in his hand , may at length consider the many calls of God that are evident upon them , to lay aside these unseemly animosities , and to endeavour a coalition in love , with all those who in sincerity call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ , their Lord and ours .

For the distances themselves that are between us , wherein we are not as yet agreed ; what is the just state of them , the truth and warrantablenesse of the principles whereupon we proceed , with the necessity of our practice in conformity thereunto , what we judge our Brethren to come short in , of , or wherein to go beyond the mind of Jesus Christ , with a farther ventilation of this businesse of Schisme , I have some good grounds of expectation , that possibly ere long we may see a faire discussion of these things , in a pursuit of truth and peace .

FINIS .