A full reply to certaine briefe observations and anti-queries on Master Prynnes twelve questions about church-government: vvherein the frivolousnesse, falsenesse, and grosse mistakes of this anonymous answerer (ashamed of his name) and his weak grounds for independency, and separation, are modestly discovered, refelled. / By William Prynne of Lincolnes Inne, Esquire.

A full Reply to certaine briefe Observations and Anti-queries to Mr Prynnes Twelve Questions about Church-Government .

OF all the vanities and vexations of spirit , enumerated by the royall Preacher , this is one of the principall , a That for all travell , and every right worke , a man is envied ( yea , many times hated , oppugned ) by his neighbour . This hath been alwayes my condition heretofore and now ; my best actions and publike services for the common good , have been misconstrued , traduced , nay censured in an high degree , as evill , by many ; though ( blessed be God ) approved , yea gratefully accepted by the best-affected to the felicity , tranquilliry of Church and State .

The importunity of some Reverend friends , lamenting the deplorable distractions of our Church , which threaten disunion , and so ruine to us , in these unhappy times of intestine warres , prevailed so farre , as to induce me to compile and publish Twelve considerable serious questions touching Church-government ; out of a cordial desire ( as much as in me lay ) to close up , not widen our divisions . Which though they have given ample satisfaction to many truely religious , of all ranks and qualities , who have returned me speciall thanks ; yet they have found very harsh entertainment from others , who of Friends b are become my professed Antagonists ( if not enemies ) in print , because I have told them the truth : to whom I should have returned no Reply but silence ( there being nought in these Observations worthy answer ) but only to rectifie some mistakes therin , and shew the opposite party those common errours whereby they deceive themselves and others .

The first thing this namelesse Respondent quarrels with , is c For my writing by may of Quere ; To which I answer , that I had both Presidents and Reasons for it .

Presidents , from our Saviour himselfe , who both instructed , refuted , convinced his opposites and auditors by demanding Questions onely , Luk. 2. 46 , 47. Matth. 11. 1 , to 20. c. 12. 3 , to 13. 26. 27. 29. c. 21. 23 , to 43. c. 22. 18 , to 23. c. 16. 26. Presidents from Philosophers , Fathers , School-men , and all sorts of Writers , ancient ▪ modern , over-tedious to recite .

Reasons : 1. I conceived the Questions touching church-government were not rightly stated by most ; and that the right stating of them by way of Question , would be the best and speediest meanes to decide them . 2. The Independent party had neither then , nor since ( to my knowledg ) dogmatically resolved or discovered in print , what that church-government is they so eagerly contend for , and pretend to be so plainly set down in the Word of God : and therefore I conjectured such Queries to be the onely meanes to discover and refute their concealed Platforme . 3. The controversies concerning church-government , were then and now in agitation in the Synode and high Court of Parliament , the properest Iudges of them ; therefore I thought it better became me in point of modesty and good manners , to expresse my opinion of them by way of Question , then Decision . Finally , I found all Independents guilty of Petitio principii , in their Writings , Sermons , Discourses , peremptorily concluding their forme of church-government , to d be the onely Government instituted by Christ , the ONLY WAY OF GOD , which hath more of God and Christ in it then any other ; the Kingdome , Scepter , and Throne of Christ himselfe , and no other way beside it ; e That by the beauty and perfect consonancy of this Government with the Word of God , it may very reasonably ( yea , and upon higher termes then of reason ) bee thought , THAT IN TIME IT CANNOT BVT OVERTHROW ALL SORTS OF ECCLESIASTICALL GOVERNMENT , ( and I feare civill too by the selfe-same-reason ) AND STAND VP IT SELFE IN THEIR STEAD ; which they close up with a , Faxit Deus & festinet : and , that writing or disputing against this Government , or opposing it in any kind , yea in thought , is no lesse then f A FIGHTING AGAINST GOD , which will bring certain ruine on our Realme in generall , and all private , open opposers of it : yet not one of them ( nor this Respondent ) hath hitherto fully discovered to us , what this WAY or Government is ; nor produced any one Scripture or Reason to warrant these superlative Encomiums of it , but we must take all they say as Gospel , upon their own bare words , without examination or dispute : And therefore I proposed these , with 12 other subsequent Questions to them ; to induce them to make good these transcendent ( that I say not arrogant ) Positions touching their Way ; since I seriously professe before God , Angels , and men , that I could never yet discover the least footsteps of it in Scripture , or Antiquity , nor defery this their Patern in the Mount , which no age till ours had ever the happiness to behold ; if it be worth the viewing , when unvailed by them to us .

Having thus given this Respondent the true grounds of my writing by way of Question , I shall briefly answer all his materiall Observations and Anti-queries upon my twelve Questions , pretermitting his Impertinencies .

1. To the first Question the Respondent gives no Answer at all to the things demanded , but only misrecites the Question , without my limitations ; and then seemes to refute , what himselfe propounds , not I : He should have demonstrated by direct Scriptures , That Christ hath prescribed one set immutable forme of Government to all Christian Nations , Churches in the World , from which none must vary in the least degree , without sinne , schisme , or being no true Churches of Christ , with whom good Christians may with safe conscience communicate ; that nothing herein is , or can be left free to humane prudence : And then have positively delineated , exactly proved the modell of this pretended Government , Discipline , in every particle thereof , by Gospel-Texts , so far as to satisfie mens erronious judgments , consciences herein , that so they might either submit thereto without dispute , or propound their objections against the same . But in this maine point ( whereon the hinge of the controversie turnes ) the Respondent is wholly silent , and I shall expect his answer ad Graecas Calendas . Only lest he might seem to say nothing , he endevours to prove , that there is a set forme of Church-government prescribed by Christ in the Gospel , not by direct Texts , but from pretended absurdities of his owne fancying , ( for which he can produce no Text nor Reason ) wherein he hath prevaricated , and shewes himselfe absurd .

First , ( writes he ) if this were granted ( that there is no such set form of Church-government prescribed to all ) the Gospell would be * straiter then the Law , Christ more unfaithfull then Moses . If we deny these absurd consequences , you shall have these sound proofes of both subjoined ; God set a patterne to * Moses of a carnall Temple , ( you mistake good Sir , it was a Tabernacle , and that not carnall ) which he charged him not to vary from in a tittle : ( well , I grant it , because you produce * two full Scriptures for it ) Ergo , he hath prescribed a set pattern of Church-government and Discipline to all Christian Nations , Churches in the new Testament , from which they must not vary in one tittle . If he ( or any other ) can shew me such a pattern as he contends for , so clearly delineated to us in the new Testament , as that pattern of the Tabernacle God shewed Moses was in the old , and then produce as direct precepts enjoyning all Christians , Republikes , Churches , not to vary from it in one tittle , as Moses had not to vary from his , I shall beleeve his sequell ; till then I shall deeme it a true Independent argument , and as grosse a Non-sequitur as this , which necessarily followes upon the concession of it .

God shewed and prescribed to Moses the expresse pattern or fashion of Aarons and his Sons garments , ornaments , under the Law , Exod. 28. Ergo he hath likewise shewed and prescribed the expresse pattern , fashion , and colour , of all Bishops , Presbyters , Ministers garments , ornaments under the Gospel , ( most likely in the Roman Ceremoniall and Pontificall . ) If the one consequence be ridiculous , the other must needs be so .

But to quell this your principall Argument , First , the patterne in the mount was meant onely of the materials , forme , vessels and utensils of the Tabernacle , not of the Government and Discipline of the Iewish church ; therefore very impertinent to prove a setled Church-government , Discipline , under the Gospel . Secondly , it was shewed only to Moses , the temporall Magistrate and chief Ruler of the Israelites ; not to Aaron , or any private Independent Priest or Synagogue of the Iewes ; yea Moses ( not they ) was to make , or see all things made according to the pattern in the mount ; Ergo ( if there be any consequence from this patterne ) not the Independent Minister or congregation , but Kings , chief temporall Magistrates , and Parliaments ( the supreme civill Powers , Councels , are likewise ( under the Gospell ) to prescribe and set up such a church-government as is agreeable to Gods Word : as Moses , Joshua , David , Solomon , Hezekiah , Josiah , Nehemiah , and other godly Princes , Governours , with their Parliaments or generall Assemblies did under the Law : And then what becomes of your Independent Ministers , Congregations claimes to this Soveraigne temporall jurisdiction , ( a part of Christs Kingly office , delegated onely to Kings , and highest temporall powers ) which was never conferred on them ? In fine , if there be any such expresse unalterable divine patterne of church-government under the Gospel , I pray informe me , why it was not as punctually , as particularly described in the new Testament , as the forme of the Tabernacle , of its materialls , with all the services , ornaments , appurtenances of it , and of the Temple were under the Law ? Nay , why was the Tabernacle altered into a * Temple , different from it ? and why did the second * Temple vary from the first , and that in the self same Church and Nation ? If these were patterns of the church-government under the Gospel , and yet varied , altered successively in this manner ; then by consequence the Government , Discipline under the Gospel is variable , alterable too , and so not fixed , nor immutable .

His second Argument , That Christ should neither be faithfull as a husband , head , nor King of his Church , if he should give others power to order it as they pleased to their owne civill Government , not setting downe his owne Lawes for them to walke by , is both a fallacy and absurdity . There is no man doubts but that Christ in the Scriptures ( which some of you refuse to heare read in our Churches , though * publicke reading of them be Gods owne ordinance ) hath prescribed to us all necessary Rules and Lawes both for our faith and lives , either in a generall or speciall manner ; but that Christ hath punctually and particularly set downe any exact unalterable form of church-government , for all Christian Nations , Churches to follow , under pain of being unfaithfull in all the former respects ; and that the Independent Modell alone is that very patterne ( the onely point in question ) remains on your part to make good . A man may be a faithfull husband , King , Master , Father , though he prescribe not distinct particular Lawes , to regulate each particular action of his Wife , Subjects , Servants , Children : * Let all things be done decently and in order , ( a generall rule for church-government ) is sufficient to excuse Christ from these your presumptuous reproaches ▪ and regulate all particulars , though left indefinite .

His third Argument , that Rev. 11. 1 , 2. we read of a † measuring of the Temple ; and Rev. 21. 1 , 2. of the new Jerusalem comming downe from God out of heaven prepared as a bride adorned for her husband ; Ergo there is a setled divine church-government universally prescribed to all Christians in the new Testament ; is no better a proofe of this assertion , then the Angel of the Church of Ephesus , is of our Prelates Lordly hierarchy jure divino . He might as well , yea more properly have concluded thence , That the Altar was measured as well as the Temple , Revelat. 11. 1. ( referring onely to the * Jewish not christian Church , which hath no * Temple nor Altar : ) Ergo we ought to have an Altar , yea and one set form of Altars in all christian Churches under the Gospell : which I hope you dare not averre .

After these three Independent Arguments , he pretends my third Quere contradicts the first , because I suppose a church-government may be consonant to Gods Word in the generall , which is not particularly prescribed in it : A pretty fancy ! As if nothing could be consonant to Gods Word , which is not particularized or verbally enjoyned in it : Are not our materiall churches , garments , temporall Magistrates , Majors , Corporations , Parliaments , Courts of justice , Laws of all sorts , yea Festivals , Covenants , monthly Fasts , &c. consonant to Gods Word , because not literally prescribed in it ? Are your private church-covenants , unmixt Communions ( as you phrase them ▪ ) erections of Independent congregations without the licence of temporall Magistrates , not consonant to the Word in your owne opinions , though no where extant in it ? If not , then all your divine pretences for them vanish and you yeeld your cause : If yea , you must then recant this pretence of a contradiction , till you are able to prove it better then yet you have done .

Having played the Logicians and contradictors part so well , he next betakes himself to his Anti-queries to prove a set church-modell : which are three .

1. If no preseript forme ( of church-government ) in the Word , why not Episcopacy ( especially regulated and moderated ) as well as Presbytery ?

I answere , if you meane it of Lordly Episcopacy , there are abundant pregnant Texts against it , to prove it opposite to Gods Word . If of moderated or regulated Episcopacy , the same with Presbytery : if the Parliament by the Synods advice unanimously establish it , as most consonant to the Scriptures , and most agreeable to the civill Government , I shall readily submit unto it without opposition , and why not you and all others ?

2. If church-government be suited to States , whether Politicians are not more fit to consult about establishing it ? Why is an Assembly of Divines called to search the Word about it ?

I answer , that my position is , That every church-government ought to be suitable to Gods Word , as likewise to the civill State ; Therefore Politicians and States-men are fit to be consulted with , to suit it best to the civill State ; and an Assembly of Divines , to square it likewise by and to the Word : the true reason why in this our Realme , and all other Christian States ( as I can abundantly manifest if need be ) Ecclesiasticall Lawes and formes of government have ever been setled by Parliaments , with the advice of Synods , Councells , wherein States-men and Church-men have jointly concurred in their deliberations and votes , using both the Bible and the Law to settle it , and not throwing either of them aside , as incompatible , as ignorant or lawlesse persons deeme them , but joyning both together .

To his third Anti-quere I answer , That it is more reasonable the * State should be subject to Christs rule , then Christ to its direction : But this Quere is quite besides the Question , till you prove infallibly , That Christ hath prescribed a set unalterable divine government , to which all churches , Nations , States , must necessarily conform ; and clearly manifest what this Government is in all its particulars . Till this be done the sole question is , Whether christian Princes , Parliaments , States , Synods , under the Gospel , have not a lawfull power to prescribe Ecclesiasticall Lawes and forms of Government , not repugnant to the Word , not to Christ himself , ( as you pretend ) but to all particular churches , congregations , subjects under their respective jurisdictions ? and whether the whole representative Church and State of England in Parliament , have not sufficient authority by Gods law to over-rule and bind all , or any particular members or congregations of it , as well as the major part of an Independent congregation , power to * over-vote and rule the lesser part , and to order , yea bind any of their particular members ? A truth so clear , that no rationall man good Christian or Subject can deny it . As for the latter part of this Querie , That the Saints think Christ is King alone over his Churches , and hath not left them to substitutes , and the politick considerations of men to be governed by ; If he meanes it onely of matters of Faith , or of internall government over the soules of men , it may passe as tolerable ; but if he intends it of externall Ecclesiasticall Government , Discipline , or order in the Church , or State as Christian , hee must renounce his Oath of Allegeance , his late Protestation , Nationall Vow and Covenant , and make Rom. 13. 1 , to 6. 1. Pet. 2. 13 , 14. Tit. 3. 1. 1 Tim. 2. 1 , 2 , 3. to be Apocryphall ; the Confessions of all Protestant Churches heterodox ; and deny christian Kings , Magistrates , and highest civill powers , to be Christs substitutes , Vicars , in point of Government , ( to whom Christ hath delegated his Kingly power ) as truely as Ministers are his deputies in point of instruction , admonition , to whom he hath bequeathed his Propheticall office .

2. In his answer to my second Quere , he first wilfully misrecites it , then infers † a blind obedience from it to all superiours commands , be they never so unjust or contrary to Gods Word ; whereas my Question speaks onely of lawfull decrees , &c. consonant to Gods Word , and to the civill Lawes , Government , and manners of the people ; to which every Christian in point of conscience is bound to submit , ( without any danger of blinde obedience ) by the expresse resolution of Rom. 13. 1 , to 6. 1 Pet. 2. 14 , 15. Tit. 3. 1. Ezra 7. 26. Josh. 1. 16 , 17 , 18. Heb. 13. 17. If any man deny this verity , he must renounce not onely his Christianity , but his Allegeance and Humanity too . But suppose ( saith he ) the whole Parliament and Synode should erre in commanding a Government that is erronious or untrue , must we then submit unto it ? I answer , first , such an oversight is not to be presumed before it be actually committed ; and it is neither * christian , charitable , nor any way of Christ , thus to prejudge their resolutions . Secondly , if the Decrees or Government they establish be not directly against Gods Word , nor pernicious to our soules , though not altogether such as we could wish , yet we ought contentedly to submit unto it without opposition : If contrary to the Word , we must then passively submit thereto for the present , and expect a redresse in Gods due time . But if it be such a Government and Discipline , under which we may freely enjoy the sincere and powerfull preaching of the Word , the due administration of the Sacraments , and all other Ordinances of God necessary for our salvation and edification , ( as we may doubtlesse do under a Presbytery , and that government our pious Parliament intends to settle ) we ought cordially and cheerfully to submit thereto ; yea thankfully to embrace and blesse God for it , and can neither waiwardly oppugne nor refuse submission to it , without arrogancy , contumacy , and apparent schisme . As for his question concerning my owne and fellow-brethrens sufferings , ( which we deeme our Honour , not our Shame ) I answer , that none of us suffered for opposing , writing , or speaking against the Bishops legall authority , or any ceremonies established in our Church by Act of Parliament ; but onely against their pretended divine right to their Episcopall Lordly power , diametrally contrary to Scripture , Fathers , Councels , the best Protestant and Popish Authors , the * Statutes of our Realm ; and against their Innovations in doctrine , discipline , ceremonies , canons , &c. contrary to the Lawes of the land , Articles , and Homilies of our Church ; as the Parliament hath resolved , yea all our Books demonstrate , and Dr Bastwicke in direct termes , in the Preface of his Flagellum : And therefore it could be neither pride , arrogance , nor schisme , but meer conscience and duty in us , to oppose them in these their usurpations and innovations only , contrary to the Laws of God and the Realme : If he and his would containe themselves within these our bounds , our Church should enjoy more peace , their persons more honour , then now they are likely to gaine , by opposing , prejudicating both the Parliaments and Synods proceedings , though never so pious , consciencious , religious .

3. His pretended contradiction of the third Quere to the first , is formerly answered ; I shall onely adde , that things may be consonant to the generall Rules of Gods Word , though not precisely prescribed in it : Yea , Independent Ladies and Gentlewomen , ( and you I hope ) will grant , that their different fashions , habits , colours , attires , are all agreeable to Gods Word , ( if modest ) and warranted by this generall precept 1 Tim. 2. 9. Let women adorn themselves in modest apparel , though not particularized in the Text : So may a church-government or Dresse be consonant to Scripture , though not precisely delineated or enjoyned by it .

To the fourth he gives no answer at all , but bids me prove it ; which I have done already in my Independency examined , till it be disproved .

To the fifth , he grants that Independency will overthrow all Nationall Churches and Synods ; and the two Independent Brethren assure us in their Reply to A. S p. 111 that in time it cannot but overthrow all other sorts of Ecclesiasticall governments : Is it not then a turbulent , dangerous , schismaticall , unquiet ( that I say not insufferable ) Government , by your owne confessions , which will admit no equall nor corrivall ; nor yet any Nationall Church , Synod , Parliament , Prince , or temporall Magistrate , to exercise any , Ecclesiasticall , Legislative , or Magisteriall authority over any of their Conventicles , members , persons , liberties , estates , much lesse their consciences , as they are Christians ? Will any Parliament , State , or Nation , ( thinke you ) suffer such a Government to take root among them , which will un-King , un-Parliament , un-church , un-Nation them altogether , and make each severall congregation an absolute Monarchy , Church , Republick , Nation , within it selfe , depending on , subordinate wholly to it selfe , as if it and they were no part or members of the publike ? The Lord preserve us from such a dividing and overturning Government . As for his invectives against the Formality , Tyranny , and enslaving of mens judgments in the Presbyteriall way , as inconsistent with spirituall liberty and State priviledges , they are meere groundlesse calumnies , to draw an odium on it , ( some of your male-contented party professing they would rather set up Lordly Episcopacy , which they have abjured , then it ) whereas these aspersions suit better with your independent modell , which is more rigid , uncharitable , unsociable , Papall , tyrannicall , Anti-monarchicall , Anti-synodicall , yea Anti-parliamentall , ( as I have elsewhere manifested ) then any other church-government whatsoever . As for my pretended bitter expressions , they are so suitable to the effects and reall consequences of this New way , ( as you stile it ) that I could not expresse my self in other language , without injury to the truth : and if any of my best Friends , who stood by me in my sufferings , deem themselves injured or reproached by them , ( as you pretend , though none of them have yet complained to me ) it is ( I hope ) onely scandalum acceptum , non datum ; and I presume my Friends are so ingenuous , as not to be offended with me for * reproving only their errors with ingenuous freedom , in which I manifest my self their greatest Friend , because I neither spare not flatter them in their mistakes : However , though I really honour all my Christian Friends , as well Independent as Presbyteriall , ( whom you most scandalously traduce as Episcopall and time-servers heretofore ) yet I preferre the * truth of God , the peace , and safety of my Native , bleeding , dying Church and Countrey , ( now much endangered by our unhappy divisions ) before all Friends or earthly comforts whatsoever . As for your pretended unsubjection of Pre●byterian Synods and Churches to the Parliament in setling Ecclesiasticall matters , I neither know nor plead for any such ▪ and our present Assembly being both appointed , directed by , and submitting all their determinations wholly to the Parliament , ( as they are obliged both by Orders , Protestation , Covenant , and professe they ought to doe ) armes me sufficiently against any such improbable untrue surmise .

6. To the sixth Quere he returnes no answer , but plainly yeelds , that there was never any Independent Church in any age or Nation whatsoever , totally converted to the christian faith , till this present ; nor any one Author that maintained it , till Mr Ainsworth ( a Separatist ) from whom the Apologists professe their dissent in some things . As for any reverend godly persons who now contend for this new Modell , though I reverence their persons , judgements too in other things , yet I cannot subscribe to them in this new dangerous By-path , which is not yet so beaten as to deserve the name of Christs Road-way . For the new supposed light ▪ discovered in these dayes , touching church-government , if you meane it onely of your Independency , ( which you borrowed from the Brownists , or Low-countrey Anabaptists , the first inventors of this Government ) I doubt when brought out to the light , and examined by the word of light , it will for the most part prove but twilight , if not darknesse : If you meane it of any other light , that is truely such , we blesse God for it , and desire to walke brotherly and unanimously in it .

In the seventh he grants , that the Law of Nature , which instructs men to unite themselves into one Nationall State , or civill Government , doth likewise teach them to joine themselves into , subject themselves unto one Nationall Church , and to Nationall Synods , Parliaments , in point of church-government ; in which every particular man hath his Vote , though not in proper person , ( since all cannot possibly assemble ) yet in their deputies , Knights , Burgesses , or selected Commissioners : and though it be true that Christ hath not given Magistrates such absolute authority over mens consciences as bodies , ( as you object ) yet he hath enjoyned us to be * subject to the higher powers , and to every lawfull ordinance of man ( not repugnant to his Word ) EVEN FOR CONSCIENCE SAKE , and THE LORDS SAKE too . For my passage , That there is no example of gathering independeut congregations , not of Infidels but of men already converted to , and setled in the Christian Faith , unlesse derived from the private conventicles of Arrians , Novatians ; Donatists , and other Hereticks , who yet were not independent among themselves ; it is not a bitter speech , ( as you phrase it ) but a true one , and onely bitter to you because undeniable : For as it was the * common practice of those seducing Hereticks , Sectaries , to gather private Conventicles of their own , and labour to draw other orthodox Christians from their proper Ministers , to incorporate themselves into their private separated congregations , as Historians informe us : So no such practice of alluring and stealing away other Pastors sheep from their proper Shepheard , who first coverted them to , and edified them in the faith and grace of Christ , can be produced , but only in these Hereticks and Sectaries , whose practice your Independents imitate . As for those private conventicles ( as he phraseth them ) for which he saith I may blesse God , that I was remembred in them with tears , when others durst not name me ; as I do really blesse God for them , and those who remembred me effectually in them , so I dare not stile them Conventicles in an ill sense , since not † such by Law , being only lawfull Assemblies of private Christians to seek unto God by prayer & fasting upon extraordinary occasions , which all good Christians cannot but approve : But all these meetings were farre from being then stiled , reputed Independent Churches , or having any affinity with them ; so as they make nothing for his cause .

To the eighth Quere he gives a negative Answer , First in generall , next in particular to some instances . First he grants , that there was a Nationall Church ( yea Nationall assemblies , Parliaments , determining church-affaires , ) of the Jewes , but these ( saith he ) cannot be a pattern for its now , because the covenant of the Gospell is not made with any one particular Nation , as with the Jewes , but to all Nations that embrace the Gospel , and beleeve in Christ ; you have no promise nor prophesie of any Nation to be holy to God but the Jewes Nation , when they shall bee called againe .

To which I reply , first , That Independents have not the least precept or example for any solemne Covenant made betwixt God and men to walke in the wayes of God , &c. but onely * in the old Testament , and Church of the Israelites , and that no private congregationall , but publike Nationall covenant , prescribed by the supreme temporall Magistrate and Assembly , not by the Priests or private Synagogues ; yea the principall precepts , presidents for publike or private fasts , sanctifying the Sabbath , &c. you likewise derive from the old Testament and that Church ; why then should not their Nationall Church be a pattern for us , and you to imitate , as well as their Nationall covenant , fasting , sabbath-keeping ; the Church of God being all one , ( as it is a Church ) both under the old Teastament and new ; and the pattern of it under the Law a better pesident for the Church under the Gospel , ( of which it was a type and fore-tunner ) then the pattern of the Tabernacle shewed in the Mount ( so frequent in your Lips and Books ) a president for your Independent Modell , to which it hath no analogy . 2. This reason is most absurd and false , the Covenant of the Gospel extending not onely to particular persons , but to † all Nations and people whatsoever , who are both prophesied and promised to become Christs own inheritance , possession , people , spouse , church , and to be an HOLY NATION , A PECVLIAR PEOPLE &c. to the Lord , in infinite Texts both of the old and new Testament , which I wonder the Respondent should either not see , or forget , being ten thousand fold more cleare and visible then his Independent platforme , which few or none can yet espy in Scripture , History , or Politiques .

2. He addes , that I cannot shew any Nation , every member whereof is qualified sufficiently to make up a church , which is Christs body , unlesse I will take in Drunkards , Whore-masters &c. to be members of a church , whereas the Word saith , they must be visible Saints , and this cannot be avoided in a Nationall church .

I answer that I dare not be wiser then my Master Christ who Informes me , that there will , and must be alwayes in the visible church on earth ( be : it Nationall , parochiall , presbyteriall , or congregationall ) * goats among the sheep , chaffe among the wheat ( which must grow together till the harvest , at the end of the world , to wit the day of judgment ) & good fish mixed with the bad in the churches Not. 2. I finde a a Judas , a Devill , among the Apostles , many b grosse sinners idolaters , and corruptions in the Jewish church ; many abuses , Epicures , Drunkards , Whore-masters , Libertines , uncleane persons , and false Teachers , in the churches of Galatia , Ephesus , Colosse , Pergamus , Smynna , Thyatira , and Laodicea ; yet the Scripture expresly stiles them c the body and churches of Christ and rep●tes such , members ( though corrupt ones ) of those Churches ; who doe not actually cease to be members when excommunicated or suspended for a season , after they are baptized , and professe the Christian faith : nor did any separate from these churches , though they had some corruptions and evill members . For you therefore to separate from , and unchurch such Nationall or Parochiall churches , which have such members in them , is to unchurch all churches both in the old and new Testament and the world it self , yea your own churches too . 3. The Scripture is expresse , d that many are called , but few chosen and saved ; that all must be compelled to come into the church , though they want the wedding-garment : There never was , nor shall be here on earth , any one visible church compacted wholly of reall elected Saints , without any mixture of Reprobates ; such a church we shall meet with onely in heaven , I am sure you can gather none such on earth . 4. Are there no corrupt or drunken members in your independent churches , but onely reall visible Saints ? are there no usurers , oppressors , corrupt dealers , covetous , proud , malicious , uncharitable , censorious persons ; no apparent hypocrites or dissemblers ? yea , are there not many sinnes and corruptions in the best , the choicest of all your members ; ( who cannot depart away , or quite separate themselves from their owne bosome corruptions , ) as there is and will be in the best of men during their mortality ? If your Independent congregations consist of such members as these , of men subject to like passions , sinnes , infirmities as others in Presbyteriall churches , what then is become of this your reason and principall ground of Independency , or rather , Separation , or Brownism , its ancient proper title ? you may lay it up in Lavander for another world , but can make no use of it in this , where you cannot so much as dream of a church of reall Saints , without any mixture of corruption .

3. For his answers to that of Acts 15. all ages , churches , till this present , have held it both an expresse warrant and president for the lawfulnesse ▪ , usefulness of Nationall and Provinciall Synods to determine differences in Religion , ( which particular churches , persons cannot decide ) and making necessary Canons for church-affaires ; neither can all his shifts elude it : To his first and second reasons , or rather evasions I answer , it is clear by Act. 15. 2. that the church of Antiech it selfe could not decide the question , nor Paul nor Barnabas satisfactorily determine it , so farre as to quiet all parties ; and therefore they sent Delegates to the Apostles and Elders at Hierusalom , there to decide it : None is so ignorant but knowes , that there are many controversies now on foot concerning doctrine , discipline , and church-government , which no particular congregations , ( nay hardly an whole Synod and Parliament together ) are sufficient to settle and determine ; therefore there is a kinde of necessity of Nationall Synods as well as of Parliaments , whence all ages , churches , have used them . To his third reason I reply , that it is evident by expresse words vers. 2. 5. 6. 7. 10. 19. 20. 24. that the principall end why the Apostles went up to Hierusalem , and why this Synod assembled was not to prove the false Apostles lyars , ( as he assirmeth ) but to debate and consider THIS QVESTION AND MATTER , whether the Gentiles ought to be circumcised ? To his fourth , I say , that though this meeting was occasional , yet it i● a sufficient warrant for generall meetings , which are usually called , only upon speciall occasions of moment : In it there was a generall assembling of all the Apostles , Elders , and Brethren at Hierusalem , ( where there were then divers particular congregations , as , our Assembly long since resolved from Acts 2. 6. 41 , 42. 46 , 47. c. 4. 4. c. 5. 14 15 , 16 , 42. c. 6. 1 , to 9. c. 8. 2 , 3 , 4. c. 11. 1 , 2. c. 12. 12 , 13. c. 21. 17 , 18 23 , 22. which if Independents deny , then they must prove , that all the Apostles and Elders at Hierusalem were Pastors but of one and the self-same individuall congregation ; and then what becomes of their Independent churches , which have no Apostle , and onely one Pastor , but scarce any Elders in them ) who upon this speciall and some other publike occasions met all together , and that not to advise onely , but determine and resolve , as is evident by vers . 6. to . 32. c. 16. 4. c. 21. 25. which compared with the Texts of the old Testament in the Margin of my Quere , where we finde frequent Nationall generall Assemblies , Synods , or Parliaments ( if I may so stile them ) among the Israelites ( prescribed , appointed by God , and no wayes contradicted , revoked under the Gospel ) determining † all Ecclesiasticall controversies , setling , ordering all church-affaires , matters concerning the Arke , Temple , Sacrifices , Passeover , Priests ▪ Nationall covenants , Fasting-dayes , Festivalls , suppressions of Idolatry , false-Worship , Reliques of Idolatry , and the like ; are an impregnable evidence of the lawfulnesse of Nationall Synods , Parliaments , Assemblies , in all Christian Kingdomes , Republikes , upon the like occasions , and that they are endued with equivalent authority ; there being no one Text in the old or new Testament , nor any shadow of reason , ( but meer shifts or obstinacy of spirit against publike goverment , order , and authority ) to controll it . If any pretend they doe it onely out of conscience , if they will but seriously gage their owne deceitfull hearts , I feare their conscience will prove but wilfulnesse , having neither precept , president , nor reason to direct it : So as I may truely retort his owne calumny against me on him and his , that his and their own name , will , or opinion , is their onely argument against this shining truth , which all ages , Churches , have acknowledged , ratified , practised , without the least dispute .

To my ninth Quere , and arguments in it , he returnes nothing worthy Reply , but upon this Petitio principii , or begging of the thing disputed ; that the Scripture and Apostles have prescribed a set forme of Government in all after ages for the Churches of Christ , which he neither can , nor endevours to prove ; and that Churches in the Apostles dayes were Independent , though doubtlesse all Churches were then subject to the Apostles Lawes , Orders , Edicts , Decisions , though no immediate Ministers or Pastors of them , ( as appeares by their Epistles to them ) therefore not Independent : so as my arguments hold firme , and his answers weak . As for his retorted argument ; That the Scriptures were writ in the infancy of the Church : Therefore wiser and better Scriptures may be writ now ; it is a blasphemous and absurd conclusion , they being all writ by the spirit and inspiration of God himselfe , the very * Ancient of dayes , who hath neither infancy nor perfection , as the Church hath .

To his second , that I would needs make a Nationall Church , State , more perfect , understanding , and wise , th●n a congregationall : I feare not to averre it , since your selves must grant , that the Church under the Law was more perfect then that before it ; the Church under the Gospel more perfect then that under the Law ; and the Churches under the Gospel , at the end of the Apostles dayes , when furnished with more divine knowledge , Scriptures , Gospels , Officers , and rules of Faith , Manners , Discipline , more compleat and perfect then at their beginning to preach : No man doubts , that though a * new-born infant and Christian have all the parts and members of a man and Saint , yet they have not so much perfection , understanding , knowledg , judgment , strength of grace , or spirituall wisdome , as grown men and Christians . An aged , expetienced , growne Minister ; Christian , is more compleat and perfect theu a new converted † Novice , or Babe in grace ; Ergo a growne and Nationall Church , then one but in the Embryo . Your Independent Churches , in their primitive infancy , when they had but two or three members onely in them , and wanted both Elders , Deacons , and other necessary church-officers ( as Mr. Sympsons church first did ) I am certain in your own opinion were not so complete and mature as you intended to make them afterwards by degrees : a Village is not so complete a Republike or Corporation as a City , nor a City as a † Kingdom , nor a Family as a County , nor a Consistory as a Synod , nor a court of Aldermen as a common-councell , nor that as a Parliament : Therefore an Independent singular congregation not so complete as a Nationall church , being oft enforced to pray in the aid of other churches for advice , assistance &c. ( as your selves confesse ) which an whole Nationall Church need not to doe . In fine , himselfe confesseth , that the Apostles made new rules for government and discipline as occasion served ; and that as God fitted occasions , so he made knowne new rules successively by degrees , not at once ; and added new Officers , as Evangelicall Bishops , Elders , Deacons , Widowes , Evangelists , Doctors , Pastors , Teachers ( which some distinguish from Presbyters , and define to be severall offices : ) Therefore the infant Church in the Apostles dayes was not so compleat , perfect in all parts , as the multiplied and growne churches afterwards .

My tenth Quere he wilfully misrecites , as he doth the rest ; else he had not the least shadow of exception against it , as I propounded it , and then returnes an answer by way of dilemma to it : To which I reply , That if the Parliament and Synod shall by publike consent establish a Presbyteriall church-government , as most consonant to Gods Word , the Lawes and Reiglement of this Kingdome , Independents and all others are bound in conscience to submit unto it , under paine of obstinacy , singularity , &c. in case they cannot really prove it diametrally contrary to the Scriptures , and simply unlawfull in point of conscience , not by fancies , or remote inconsequences , but by direct Texts and precepts , ( which they can never doe ; ) and that because it is thus commanded , established by the higher powers , to which in all lawfull or indifferent things wee are bound to render all chearfull obedience , without resistance , even for conscience sake , by expresse Gospel Texts , Rom. 13. 1 , to 7. Tit. 3. 1. 1 Pet. 2. 14 , 15. which I wish you would practise better , and make make more conscience of then now you doe . As for his crosse Interrogatories , I answer , 1. That if the Popes Councels command lawfull things to those who are subject to their power they are as well to be obeyed as the commands of * heathen Emperours , Magistrates , Parents , Husbands , by Christian Subjects , Wives , Servants , living under them are . 2. That there is a great difference between matters of opinion onely , and of practise ; That his instanced points , Whether Lordly Episcopacy be jure divino ; or their making out Processe under their owne Names and Seales be agreeable to the Law of the Land , are matters onely of opinion simply in themselves ; and if a Synod and Parliament should have determined the first , and the Iudges resolved the last , affirmatively , their resolutions could not binde my judgement absolutely , so farre as to subscribe their opinions as undoubted truths , unlesse they could satisfie my arguments and authorities to the contrary ; but yet they should & ought to bind me for the present so far as to submit to their authority & Processe in their own names in things within their legall cognisance : So if the Parliament and Assembly shall establish any Church-government , as most agreeable to the Scriptures and our Lawes , though this binds not all Independents to be simply of their opinion , unlesse the reasons and arguments produced for it be sufficient to convince their judgments , yet it binds them in point of practise and obedience , outwardly to submit thereto , and not to separate from it , under pain of arrogancy , faction , schisme , unlesse they can clearly manifest it to be absolutely unlawfull and repugnant to the Scripture . As for my own objected challenge to the Bishops & Iudges ▪ about the jus divinum of Lordly Prelacy , and Bishops Processe in their own names ; when I made it I was certain I had both † Scripture , Fathers , Councels Acts of Parliament , the suffrages of all forraigne Reformed Churches , Writers , and our owne learnedest Bishops , Authors in all times against the first ; and direct Acts , Resolutions of Parliament , Patents , unanswerable Law-authorities , and Reasons against the latter : Therefore a few Lordly Prelates opinions in their owne case or the subitane , forced , extrajudiciall resolution of the Iudges ( not then published ) could no more conclude my judgment , nor make me guilty of arrogancy , obstinacy , or schism then , than their forced judgments for the lawfulnesse of Loanes and Ship-money , against expresse Acts and judgments of Parliament , oblige me or others , then or now , not to deeme that taxe illegall : and when you can produce as many good authorities , Reasons from Scripture , Antiquity , Acts of Parliament , Writers of all sorts , against the lawfulnesse of Presbytery , as I have done against Lordly Episcopacy by divine right Bishops making out Processe under their own Names , Seals and † Ship-mony , neither of which were ever setled by any former Parliament , and have all bin expresly voted against in this : I shall then excuse you from arrogancy and schisme , but till this be done , ( as I presume it will never be ) the guilt of both these wil stick fast upon you , if you readily conforme not in outward practice to that Government the Parliament shall establish . If they should settle Independency , I am certaine you would then write and preach for universall obedience to it , ( which you now publikely call for so eagerly without authority or proof of its Divinity , because thus setled ) without dispute : therefore by like reason you ought to submit to a Presbytery , or such other Government as shall be resolved on by those Intrusted with this care .

To my 11. Quere he gives only a negative answer and then declaims against Presbytery without ground or reason : But because I have proved the truth of what he denies in my Independency examined and in some following pages , I shal not trouble you with any further proof , except these two particulars : 1. That Independency is in reality meer Separation and Brownism , lately christened with this new title , to take off its odium : and if so , I doubt not but it is a nursery of schisms , Sectaries , &c. 2. That we finde by wofull experience , what bloudy divisions , warres , schisms , the toleration but of one Religion and Sect in our Realms contrary to that established , ( to wit Popery and Pupists ) hath produced in all our Dominions , to their imminent danger , and almost utter ruine ; what then will the free permission of many Independent different forms of Churches , Sectaries do ? will it not produce many more troubles , dangers , wars , schisms , then we have hitherto felt ? Yea , if every man ought to have freedom of conscience , to vent what opinions , & set up what Governments he deems most conformable to the Word in his own private fantie , you must indulge Papists this liberty as well as others : and then how soone will they over-run us for the future , how justly can we take up armes to suppresse them for the present ? Consider seriously of those and other publike-mischiefes of your way , and that liberty of conscience you so much contest for , ( which in truth is nothing but meere lawlesnesse , or licentiousnesse , to do * what seemes good in your owne eyes , as if there was no King in Israel , without respect to the publike peace or weale ) and then happily you may in time discerne , recant your errour .

To my twelfth Quere he onely answers , that I fall a jeering of my brethren , ( a palpable untruth ) and that I put a nick-name on them , to make them odious ; to wit , the title of Independents , which they disclaime ▪ not answering one syllable to the substance of the Question . To which I reply : First , that the title of Independency ( of which you are now ashamed ) was at first assumed , approved by your selves , and many of your party doe still owne , though some disclaim it , of purpose to evade the titles of Separatists and Brownists , with whom you really concurre in practice : Besides , you very well know that this title was imposed on , and owned by you long before I writ ; therefore I could not father this brat upon you : But if you be offended with this name , I desire you in your next Pamphlet to discover to us your owne Christian name , with the true title of your party , and the government you plead for as the only way of Christs institution ( all which you have hitherto concealed ) and then ( God willing ) I shall give you a further answer to this cavill , or retract this title ; till then I must informe you that it most proper for your party , who will have every of your owne private congregations , a complete absolute corporation , exempted from ; unsubjected to independent on any other , be it a Nationall Synodall , Provinciall , Parochiall assembly , Parliament or Kings themselves in any Church-affaires : You must therefore still retaine this Title , while● you maintaine such Paradoxes both in opinion and practice as justly appropriate it to you , Conveniunt rebus nomina saepe suis , being never more exactly verified then in this your suitable name .

But you object , first , That you are accountable for your actions to every neighbour Church , that shall in the name of Christ require it . Secondly , That you stand not independent from , but hold communion with all other Churches , both in the Ordinances , and in asking counsell and advice mutually .

To the first I answer , 1. That if you are accountable for your actions to every particular neighbour Church , then why not much more to a Synod or Parliament , whose ecclesiasticall jurisdiction over you or your Churches is denied by you ? Secondly , if you are thus accountable to every neighbour Church , doe you intend it of Parochiall , Episcopall , or Presbyteriall Churches , as well as Independent ; or of Independent onely ? If of Independent onely , as I suppose you doe , then you appeale onely to Churches of your owne partie , frame , judgment , and make one of them subordinate , accountable to another , but not to any other Church ; which is an apparent schisme , separation from all other Churches , and contradicts your second objection : If of all other sorts of Churches as well as Independent , you must either grant them true Churches of Christ , and then you have no ground to sever from them ; or if false , or no true Churches of Christ , ( as you in truth repute them ) then by your own principles they are no competent Iudges of Ecclesiasticall affaires , nor you accountable to them . Thirdly ▪ How ( I pray ) doe you hold your selves accountable to every neighbour Church ? by way of subordination , or correction ? that I am certain you will deny : or only by way of voluntary information and satisfaction , when required , which I conceive you mean ? If so only , then this is properly no account at all ▪ or but arbitrary at most , which you may deny if you please ; and if you erre or prove faulty , this neighbour Church can but admonish , not enforce you to correct your errours or injustice : and so this will prove but a meere mockery in stead of an account .

To the second I answer , That if you stand not Independent from other Churches , but hold communion with them in Ordinances , and in mutuall counsell and advice , Then 1. why doe you separate from them as no true Churches , and oppose their way of Government with so much bitternesse ? Secondly , why doe you refuse to administer Baptisme and the Lords Supper to those who are their members , in your Churches , unlesse they be professed members of some Independent Congregation ? Thirdly , why do you not follow their advice , counsell , or the Parliaments , Synodes , and submit thereto ; who now earnestly disswade you from your way of separation , division , in these distracted times ? the end of demanding good counsell and advice being but to follow , not reject it , where there is humility , ingenuity , or sincerity in those who aske it . You must therefore either disclaime these objected concessions , or become more tractable for the future . 4. You tell us in the next succeeding lines , That neither I , nor Synods , nor this Synod , are infallible , but as subject to errours as others ; and that never † more dangerous errours have been confirmed then by Synods : and therfore men are not bound in conscience to their decrees upon penaltie of sinne , arrogancy , &c. But pray Sir may not you and your Independent Ministers Churches erre as well as others ? Is infallibility annexed onely to your private Chaires , conventicles ? If not , then why may not your new-minted Way be a meere erronious By-path , and no way of Christ as well as other waies , and you erre herein as well as Synods in other things ? Why will you have the major vote in your congregationall decisions to over-rule and bind the rest to obedience ; ( as your practice and opinions intimate ) since the major part may possibly be mistaken , as well as the lesse dissenting ? Shall nothing binde in any Churches , but what is unanimously voted nemine contradicente ? or shall one or two dissenting voices over-rule the rest , or not be bound by the most ? or where all consent may not all yet be in an errour , and not discerne it ▪ through selfe-love to their owne wayes and opinions , till others of contrary judgements discover and convince them of their errour ? Away then with this fond argument and evasion ; Synods and Parliaments may erre in some things , Ergo they must binde us in no thing : Is this good Logicke or Divinity ? Good Ministers may and doe erre sometimes in some points of Divinitie , Ergo wee will beleeve them in none , no not in those things in which they doe not erre . Will you throw away all the Apple because● one part of it only is rotten ? or reject Communion with the best of men because they have some infirmities ? Deal then with the Ecclesiasticall decrees of Synods and Parliaments as in wisdome , in conscience you are bound to doe : Where they are just , equall , not opposite to the word , embrace , submit unto them ; when erronious or contrariant to the expresse word ( not to your own fancies , inferences or opinions ) you may differ from them in judgment , but you must patiently suffer under them in point of practise & obedience ( if meerly practicall ) till a further season , and not disturb the Churches peace by opposition or schism : which is as good , as seasonable Christian advice , as that you conclude with unto me , which I heartily wish your selfe had first followed ▪ who have more defamed the ways of Christ and u●ed more personall unchristian betternesse then I am guilty of . You wish indeed , O that a spirit of love were maintained among those that are brethren : though they differ in judgment ▪ must they needs differ in affection ? I say the same . But O then why seperate you from us , yea passe uncharitable censures on us as if we were not your Brethren ? One Kingdom , one City , House , doth now , one heaven shall heareafter contain us both : why not then one church government , one Church Militant , as well as one Triumphant ? If you deem not your * selves more holy then your brethren , or be not swelled up with spirituall pride ( as your stiling your selves † Men of rich anoynting from God , the most religiously affected , and best conscienced people of the land , the most precious men , &c. with your separation from us , and harsh censures of us , make most men suspect ) then why refuse you to close with us now , as you have done heretofore ? Could our Ministers , Churches , when more corrupt , convert , regenerate . edifie , save you , and yet not now so much as hold you , when more refined and reformed ? If yea , then let us both shake hands without any more encounters ; if nay , then fairely ▪ chalke out your yet concealed independent way and platforme in all its severall lineaments , and beautifull native colours ; produce your severall punctuall Scriptures , Arguments , to maintain it , ( there being none of them extant in these your Observations for ought I can find ) that so I may see the frame and grounds of this new Fabricke , in as large or narrow a Modell as you please : and then doubt not but an Answer shall be given to what ever you modestly set forth , ( if worthy answer ) in case it be not satisfactorie ; or else a friendly embrace thereof , if agreeable to the Spirit and Word of truth , by him who hath learned Pauls peremptorie resolution , 2 Cor. 13. 8. We can do nothing against the truth , but for the truth ; in which resolution ( God assisting ) I resolve to live and die .

Certaine briefe Animadversions on Mr John Goodwins Theomachia , in Iustification of some passages in My Independency , Examined , Unmasked &c. and of the Parliaments Ecclesiasticall power .

IT is not my intention to repeate or refute all the unseasonable offensive passages in the Epistle or Body of this Treatise , which ●●citly reflect upon the present Religious Parliament and Assembly , raising needlesse feates and jealousies of them both ( in matters of RELIGION and Church-Government ) as if they really intended * to increase our misery and bondage , by rejecting and oppressing truth ; to conjure all mens gifts , parts industrie into a Synodicall Circle ; and that there is almost as little hope of gathering grapes from thornes , or figges of Thistles , as of having the joy of our faith holpen , or encreased , or any decrease , but rather increase of evills by them ; the resolutions of Councells , and Synods themselves upon the matter and just account , being but the fruits , or puttings forth of the learning and judgment of a very few men , not alwayes of the most consciencious &c. I shall only select some few particulars worthy consideration ; to fill up my vacant Pages .

First , it may be justly questioned , whether the maine doctrine prosecuted in it b That it is the greatest imprudence under Heaven , for any man or ranke of men whatsoever to appeare , or so much as to list up an hand , or thought , against any way , doctrine or practise whatsoever clayming origination or descent from God , till we have securitie upon securitie , evidence upon evidence , yea all the securitie that men in an ordinary way are capable of , and foundations as cleare as the noone day , that such wayes , Doctrines and practises , only pretend unto God as the Author of them and that in truth they are not at all from him , but either from men , or from baser Parentage ; that they are but counterseits and pretenders only , and stand in no relation at all , but that of emnitie and opposition unto God ; and that we are not to act the value of one haire of our head against them , untill we see their condemnation written with a beame of the Sunne by the finger of God Himselfe ; untill he hath disclaimed or renounced it from Heaven , either by giving such wisedome unto men , whereby to detest the vanitie of it , or else hath quite rased it out of the flesh and Tables of the hearts of his servants , &c. Be Orthodox or tolerable ? For these ensuing reasons .

1. First , because it opens a wide gate to the reviving of all old , the spreading and propagating of all new Heresies , Errors , Schismes , Sects , and opinions whatsoever , without the least timely opposition or prevention , to the endangering of infinite soules , and disturbance of the Churches , Kingdoms peace . For there is * no Hereticke , Schismaticke , or Sectary whatsoever ( though never so pernicious , grosse or detestable ) but pretends his way , doctrine , practise , opinions to be the way and truth of Christ , clayming their origination and descent from God , yea , * producing perverting the Scripture it selfe to justifie them , as the * Devill cited and wrested Scripture to tempr Christ : yea , our Saviour and the Scripture informe us , that many false Teachers shall arise , and doe great Miracles , Signes and Wonders , insomuch that they shall deceive many , yea the greatest part of the World , and if it were possible the very Elect ; * That Satan and his Ministers also transforme themselves into Angels of Light : That false Teachers usually come to seduce men in sheeps clothing , with all deceiveablenes and crafiines , whereby they lye in waite to deceive ; and advise us frequently to beware of such , and not admit them into our houses , &c. And must we therefore not speedly oppose , resist , avoyd , suppresse them or any of them now , because they thus pretend they are of and from God Himselfe ; but stay till we see their condemnation written with a beam of the sun by the finger of God himselfe , and till he hath disclaimed , renounced them from Heaven , by some visible judgment or destruction ? If Arrianisme , Pelagianisme , Socinianism , Anahaptisme , or any anciently exploded Heresies , or Schismes should revive and sprout up among us ( as some have lately done ) should wee use such indulgence as this towards them , because they pretend their origination and descent from heaven ; and their opinions not disputable only , but warranted by the Scripture ? Alas what confusion , what inundation of heresies , schismes , and monstrous opinions would this presently introduce into our Church to its destruction , ruine , if such a Paradox were once admitted ?

Secondly , Because it is contrary to these expresse precepts and presidents both of the Old and New Testament , which you may peruse at leasure , Deut. 13. 1. to 18. Levit. 19. 17. Joshua . 22. 9. to 24. Psalme . 119. 104. 128. 2 Kings . 22. 8. to 27. Ier. 4. 30. 31. ( a pregnant place ) c. 14. 14. to 18. cap. 23. 13. to 23. cap 27. 15. to 19. c. 29. 8 , 9. Ezra . 13. throughout Matthew 7. 15. cap. 24. 11. 23. 24. 25. 26. Mark , 13. 5 , 6. 22 , 23 , 24. Acts 13. 6. to 14. cap 15. 1. to 33. cap. 17. 11. Rom. 16. 17. 18. 2 Cor. 11. 13. 14 , 15. Galath. 1. 6. 7. 8 , 9. 10. c. 2. 4. to 18. ( a noted place ) c. 3. 1 , 2. 3. Ephes. 4. 14 , 15. Phil. 3. 1. 2. 3. Coloss. 2. 8. 18. to the end 1 Thes. 5. 21. 2 Thes. 2. 1. to 16. c. 3. 6. 7. 1 Tim. 4. 1. to 7. chap. 1. 20. chap. 5. 20. 21 , 22. 2 Tim. 2. 16. 17 , 18. 23 , 24 , 25 , 26. c. 4. 1. to 6. Titus . 1. 9. to 15. chapter 3. 9. 10 , 11. 2 Pet. 2. 1. 2 , 3. c. 3. 17. 18. 1 Ioh. 4. 2. 3. 2 John 10. 11. Jude 3. 4. &c. Revel. 2. 14. 15. 20. 21. compated together . f Paul would not give way to false Apostles NO NOT FOR AN HOURE , that the truth of the Gospell might continue among the Galatians , and resisted Peter to his face , at soone as ever hee walked disorderly , and gave the least countenance to false Teachers , though a chiefe Apostle ; and did not demur upon the matter ; yea the Churches * of Porgamus , and Thyatyra , are sharply blamed for suffering some among them to hold the doctrine of Balaans , and the Nicolaitans ; and to suffer Jesabell the Prophetesse to teach and seduce : And shall we permit them , now , without restraint ?

Thirdly , Because it is contrary to these received unquestionable Maximes of Divinitie , Policie , and Morality . Principijs obstare : Venienti occurrere morbo , to withstand the very beginnings of Errors , Heresies , Mischiefes ; Schismes : to crush these Cockatrices in the shell ; rather to keep then cast them out , Turpius ejicitur quàm non admittitur hostis . All wise men hold preventing Physicke best for their bodies , states , and why not for their souls and Churches ? since , Sero medicina paratur , cum mala per longas invaluére moras .

Fourthly , Because contrary to the h Policy practise of most Godly Magistrates , Princes Ministers , Churches in all Ages , Nations , which never indulged such liberty to opinions , new wayes , practises , especially to new Church-governments , Schismes , and Conventicles , ( which he here pleads for ) set up only by private spirits in opposition to the publick established Church-regelment . Indeed in some matters mearly of opinion which are not dangerous or schismaticall , some latitude may and must be left to men ; but matters of Government are such tender things , as differences & varieties therin cannot be tollerated in one and the selfe same Church and State without infinite inconveniencies and disturbances , especially where every Church shall be Independent , subject to no other Canons , rules , but its own peculiar arbitrary Dictates .

2 It may be questioned , whether the Independent way he there so earnestly pleads for , be the way of Christ , or not ? since he neither discovers to us what it is , nor produceth any one text to prove it Christs own way , nor one example to warrant it in any age : but gives us good grounds to suspect it none of his without much scrutiny .

1 For first , he comeneth , i that this way is every where spoken against , even by some that would be thought prime men and pillars in the temple of God ; and insinuates ; that the Parliament , Assembly and generality of the k Ministers and people of the Realm , are bent against it ; Therefore being a new way , never yet heard off in the world in any age , or Church of Christ , and thus generally opposed by our whole Church and State even in these times of Reformation ; we may l justly suspect it is no way of Christ , till we see its approbation written in a beam of the Sun with the finger of God himself , and till he hath justified and owned it as his , from heaven .

2 He tacitly acknowledgeth it a m Government set up by a few private men , not only without but against the authority & commands of the Parliament and supream temporall Magistrates : yea , which not only denyes but oppugnes the temporall Magistrates , Parliaments , Synods directions or coercive power in Ecclesiasticall affairs ; directly contrary to the Scriptures , as I have largely proved by many Texts , in my o Independency examined . Only I shall adde , that not only the Kings and temporall Magistrates of the Israelites ; but even heathen p Kings and Princes ( as Cyrus , Artaxerxes , Darius , Nebuchadnezzars the King & Nobles of Nineve &c. ) enacted good and wholsom Laws , for the worship , honor and service of the true God , and to further his people in the building of his temple ; who thereupon were enjoyned to * pray for their prosperity , as the marginall Scriptures evidence . Yea , r Paul himselfe even in matters of Religion pleaded his cause before Festus , Felix , King Agrippa , and at last appealed unto Caesar an heathen Emperor , herein ; yea he enjoyns all Christians ſ to pray even for heathen Kings , Magistrates , and to submit to all their lawfull commands for conscience sake , to whose judicature and tribunals , t Christ himself and his Apostles willingly submitted themselves upon all occasions when brought before them , without demurring to their jurisdictions . Therefore Christian Princes & Magistrates , who were long since predicted to become nursing Fathers to the Church under the Gospel , have much more power and jurisdiction in Church-government and affairs within their own Dominions .

3 For that it appears to be away that will breed infinite confusions , disorders , by confounding v the bounds of parishes renting Congregations , families , and most relations assunder ; & giving way to every sect to chuse Ministers , erect Churches of their own . without controle , in point of position ( though their practise be quite contrary where they have power , they admitting no other kind of government but Independency in New-England , and excommunicating or banishing those who will not submit unto it : ) a government inconsistent with Royalty , and the civill government ; and so none of Christs who never erected any Church-gouernment to clash with or controle the civill .

4 Whereas he pretends , that x persons of one family or parish may be members of severall Churches without any inconvenience schisme , or distraction ; as well as members of severall companies and trades ; and therefore Ind-pendency is no occasion of divisions .

I answer 1 , That y two cannot walke peaceably and-lovingly together unlesse they are agreed , especially in matters of Religion ; and those who in point of conscience cannot communicate or agree together in one Church , will never questionlesse accord well together in one family , bed , parish , kingdom , as experience manifests .

2 There is a great difference between severall trades and Halls in one City parish , kingdome and severall formes of Church-government , in these particulars which occasion unity in the one but schismes in the others 1. All trades societies hold one another lawfull , usefull , necessary , agreeable to the lawes of God and the Realme without dispute ; & so they breed no contrariety of opinions or disaffection : but each different Church deems the other unlawful , & in no way of Christ so as they cannot with safe conscience joyn or communicate together ; and thereupon they fever one from another . 2. Every several trade and society , even in their very trade is subject to the general Government , Laws of the City & Realm wherin they are to which they appeale and have recourse upon all occasions of difference , none craving an exemption or Independency from the whole Corporation , Parliament or supream Magistrate in matters which concern their government , but deriving their Corporations Charters , Laws and priviledges from them : which subordination keep : them all in peace and unity . But Independent Churches deny any subordination , subjection to the Ecclesiasticall Lawes and Edicts of Parlements , of temporall Magistrates or Synods , and will be regulated , obliged onely by their own peculiar Edicts : which must needs occasion infinite Schismes and disorders : therefore the cases are far different from one the other .

Thirdly , Christians , as Christians , are all of one and the self-same society and profession , as those of one Trade or Calling are ; therefore they should have all but one common Church and government , as these Trades have : To set then the comparison upright , we must state it thus ; If some of one Fraternity in London ( suppose the Merchant-taylers , Sadlers , Mercers , or the like ) should fall out among themselves , and one would have one forme of government , another another , and thereupon divide themselves into severall conventicles and petty meetings in corners , not at their common hall , and one chuse one Government , Master , or Warden , another another , and so sever the company , and continue independent ; this ( no doubt ) would prove an apparent schisme , and seminary of infinite divisions , to the distraction , destruction of the whole Company and Fraternity . This is the true state of your Independency ; yea Mr Goodwins present case in his own Parish , miserably divided , disordered by his Independent way : which hath induced him to refuse to administer the Lords Supper , ( yea Baptisme to some children of Parishioners ) for a yeares space or more , though they offer to be examined by him ; esteeming them none of his Flocke , ( preaching but seldome to them , though he receive their tithes : ) and instead thereof to gather an Independent congregation to himselfe out of divers Parishes and his owne , to whom hee prescribes a Covenant ere they be admitted members of it ; preaching , praying , administring the Sacrament to them alone in private conventicles , neglecting his Parishioners : which hath engendred such discontents and rents in his Parish , even among the well-affected and truely religious , that he must either desert it or his Independent way . What schismes and discords this New war hath raised in other Parishes , is so well knowne to the World , that I need no other evidence to prove it a schismaticall By-path , and so no way of Christ the * Prince of peace , who prescribes nought else but precepts of peace and unity to his Churches , and is most offended with their schismes .

Finallie , I cannot thinke this way a way of Christ because I finde it a Pioner and underminer of Parliamentary authority , devesting Parliaments of all manner of jurisdiction in matters of Religion and Church-government ; witnesse the passage of the Two independent Brethren recited in my Independency examined p. 3. ( which certainly weares a Maske as yet , since she never appeared bare-faced to the world , not one of her Parrons hitherto presenting us with her in her native colours , or lineaments ) whose guilt this Author by his explanation , to make it good , rather aggravates then extenuates . He writes , That the Brethren in the mentioned period and expressions , reflected onely upon the generalitie of the Land , who according to the Lawes , yea according to the principles of all reason and equitie have the right of nominating persons unto Parliamentarie trust and power , but HAVE NO AVTHORITY OR POWER FROM CHRIST TO NOMINATE OR APPOINT WHO SHALL BE THE MEN THAT SHALL ORDER THE AFFAIRES OF CHRISTS KINGDOME , OR INSTITVTE THE GOVERNMENT OF HIS CHVRCHES : These are that secular root , out of which the Brethren conceive AN IMPOSSIBILITY that a spirituall extraction should be made ; that is THAT A LEGITIMATE ECCLESIASTICK POWER SHOVLD ACCORDING TO THE MIND OF CHRIST , OR ANY PRECEPT OR PRESIDENT OF SCRIPTVRE , BEE BY THEM CONFERRED VPON ANY MAN . And this IMPOSSIBILITY conceived by them they onelie illustrate and declare by that parallel expression in Job Who can bring a cleane thing out of an uncleane ? &c. But to hold , that the persons so elected as hath been said , have a power by vertue of such nomination or election to enact Lawes and Statutes in matters of Religion , and to order under mulcts and penalties how men shall worship and serve God , as it is a meanes to awaken the eye of jealousie upon them , and so is seven times more destructive unto , and undermining not onlie of their power , but of their honour , peace , and safetie also , then any thing that is found in the way so ill intreated ; so it is a setling of a power upon the electors of such persons , I meane the promiscuous multitude of the Land , yea of a greater power then ever Iesus Christ himselfe had , at least then ever he exercised ; For as dare Regem , argues a greater power then esse Regem ; as hee that buildeth an house hath more honour then the house , Hebr. 3. 3. so to nominate and appoint who shall have power to umpire in matters of conscience and of God , * to determine what shall be preached , and what not ; what shall be beleeved , and what not , is a branch of a greater root of power , then the exercise of the power that is committed to others in this behalfe . Now though Iesus Christ had a power , and was authorized by God to be a Law-giver himselfe unto his Churches and Saints in their spirituall Republike , yet it is hard to prove , that he ever he invested any other with such a power : His Apostles themselves were no Lords over the faith of the Saints , nor had they anie power or authoritie to impose any thing upon men , as † necessarie either to be beleeved or practised , but what they had in expresse commission and charge from Jesus Christ himselfe to impose upon such termes , &c.

The summe of this large passage is , that there is not onelie an improbabilitie , but absolute impossibilitie that the Parliament should have any power at all to enact Lawes and Statutes in matters of Religion , church-government , Gods worship or service , because the people who elect them have no such power , and so an impossibilitie of deriving any such authoritie to them ; and to affirme the contrarie , is not onely to awake the eyes of jealousie upon them , but exceedingly destructive to , and undermining of not onely their power ; but honour , peace , and safetie also . Whether this be not directly to undermine the authority of Parliaments and temporal Magistrates in all church-affairs and matters of Religion , contrarie to your late Covenant and Protestation , and that in the most transcendent maner that ever any have hitherto attempted in print , let all wise men judg : I am sory such ill passages should fall from so good a pen .

But to give a short Answer to this extravagant discourse : First , this objection might be made against the generall Assemblies , Parliaments , Kings of the Israelites , who a were chosen by the people , yet they made Lawes and Statutes concerning Religion , and Gods worship , with his approbation , without any such exception , as I have elsewhere proved . Secondly , God himself ( as I formerly touched ) used the ministry , assistance of Cyrus , Artaxerxes , Darius , with other heathen Princes and Magistrates , for the building of his Temple , and advancement of his worship , for which they made Decrees , Statutes ; notwithstanding this objected reason reflects more upon them and their electors , then on such who are Christians by externall profession . Thirdly , most Christian Kings and Magistrates in the World , ( even those who claime to be hereditary , as the yet continued formes of their Coronations and instalments manifest ) come in by the peoples election , as well as such members of Parliament who are eligible , yet you cannot without disloialty and absurdity , deny them authoritie in matters of Religion and Church-government . Fourthly , your selfe doe not onely grant , but argue , b That every private man hath , yea ought to have power to elect and constitute his own Minister : and no doubt you will grant , that private men have power likewise to set up independent Congregations , which have authority to prescribe such Covenants , Lawes , and Rules of Government , Discipline , Worship , as themselves think most agreeable to the Word : If then they may derive such an Ecclesiasticall authority to independent Ministers and Churches , why not as well to Parliaments and Synods likewise by the self same reason ? Fifthly , it is cleare by sundry instances in Scripture , and your owne Text , that God doth oft times make use of unsanctified persons , and the rude multitude , ( whom you so much under-value ) to advance his glory , propagate his Gospel , promote his Worship , vindicate his Truth , and edifie his Church : He can poure a spirit of prophesie upon c a Baalam , a Saul , a Gamaliel , a persecuting High-Priest ; he can make a d Judas an Apostle , yea send him to preach and build his Church , as well as a Peter : Wee read in the Evangelists , that none were so forward as the vulgar e multitude to beleeve , follow , professe Christ , and embrace the Gospel , though many of them did it out of sinister ends . Therefore they may well have power to chuse such persons who shall and may make Lawes to promote the Gospel , and Government of the Church of Christ . Sixthly , those who have no skill at all in Law , Physick , or Architecture , have yet judgment and reason enough to make choice of the best Lawyers , Physitians , Architects , when they need their help . Those who are unfit , or unable to be members of Parliament themselves , ( as most of the electors are ) have yet had wisdom enough in all ages , and especially at this present , to elect the most eminent & ablest men for such a service : Those who are unmeet to be Kings , Magistrates , Commanders , or Ministers , have yet skill enough to chuse able persons for such offices , & power to delegate to them such Parliamentary , Royall Magisteriall , Pastorall authority , as is necessary for their severall offices , which those who elected them never had actually , but onely originally or virtually in them , not to use , but derive them unto others : why then may not our free-holders , who have voices in electing the members of our Parliaments , and the Commonalty to the Land , ( whom you scandalously terme , the vilest and most unworthy of men , though there be a degree of vulgar people viler and unworthier then they in all respects , who have no votes in such elections ) have sufficient authority in them to elect and nominate such fitte , persons , who by virtue of such nomination or election shall have right and power to enact Lawes , Statutes , in matters of Religion , Worship , and Church-government , not dissonant from Gods Word , to which themselves and others by Gods owne ordinance must submit ? If the common people , who neither are nor can be Parliaments , Emperors , Kings Judges , Magistrates , Ministers , have yet a lawful power to make others such by their bare election & to give them such authority and power as themselves never actually were or can be possessors of , then why by the self , same reason may they not likewise delegate a lawfull Ecclesiasticall legislative authority in church-affairs , to their elected Parliamentary and Synodall Members , which was never actually in themselves , as well as Mr * Goodwin delegate the power of determining who should be fit persons to receive the Sacrament , and to become members of his independent Congregation , to eight select substitutes , which was never actually vested in himselfe , nor transferrible thus to others by any Law of God or man ? why may not a man bring an ecclesiastical or spiritual extraction out of a secular root , ( contrary to your Paradox ) as * well as a Regall , Magisteriall , Parliamentall , Mnisteriall extraction , out of a meere popular or servile root ? or the best strong waters out of the vilest Lees ; the richest Minerals out of the coursest earth ? the most orient Pearles out of the basest Oisters ? In one word , the very choice these your vilest and most unworthy of men have made this Parliament , may for ever refute this childish reason , the corner-stone of your Independent fabricke , fastned together with independent crochets , unable to abide the test . Therefore notwithstanding this your reason , our present Parliament may and ought , in point of right & duty to make binding Laws for regulating church-government , restraining heresies , schismes , innovations , erronious doctrines , unlawfull conventicles , and for setling the purity of Gods worship and Religion , notwithstanding this objection ; and with as much reason , justice , raise , and establish a new church-government , suitable to Gods Word and the civill State , as reforme or repeale the old , ( which grew to burden some and offensive ) till Independents can shew us better grounds against it then any yet produced : and informe us , why our whole representative Church and State should not of right enjoy and exercise as great or greater ecclesiasticall jurisdiction , over all particular persons and Churches who are Members of our Church and Realme , as any independent Minister or Congregation challenge or usurp unto themselves , over their owne Members ( this being the true state of the question and not whether * one particular Church , or parish , hath superiority or Iurisdiction over another ? as some mistake it ) without yea against both Law & Gospel for ought they yet have made appeare ? I shall say no more in so clear a case , but refer the Author to the high Court of Parliament , ( whose undoubted priviledges he hath presumptuously undermined by the very roots ) to crave their Pardon , or undergo their justice for this and other his Anti-parliamentany passages , diametrally contrary to his , our , their late Nationall Vow and Covenant , which they cannot without highest Perjury permit any wilfully thus to violate in the most publike manner .

FINIS .