To his reverend and much respected good friend, Mr. John Goodwin: be these I pray presented.

TO HIS REVEREND AND MUCH Respected Good Friend , Mr. JOHN GOODWJN : Be these I pray presented . REVEREND SIR ,

HAving lately received from you , by the hands of my loving Neighbour and Friend , Mrs. Ducker , a both undeserved and unexpected favour , one of your last Books , intituled , Innocencie and Truth triumphing together ; I acknowledge it a just engagement of obliged gratitude , and therefore , accordingly , I do here return you deserved and most humble thanks for the same , by the same friendly hand . And because ( worthy Sir ) I conceived and considered with my self , that you sent it by way of love and desire to give me ( who am , as I acknowledge , a poor and unworthy Presbyterian ) satisfaction , if it might be , touching your Independent Church-way : I having now perused it all over , even à capite ad calcem ( and I hope with that pietie and impartialitie , as my God hath enabled me , which becomes a Christian and fellow servant to the same Lord Jesus Christ with you ) I therefore hope you will , not so much pardon ( which I pray not ) as accept ( which I heartily desire ) with Christian Candor , mine ingenuitie and plain dealing with you , in now giving you an account , briefly , as I thought it most fit , of what light or content and satisfaction I have received from it . Truly Sir , I having read your Epistle to the Reader , found therein very full and fair promise of your ingenuous aym and intention in the subsequent discourse , viz. that you projected four things therein , Brevitie , Perspicuitie , Moderation , and Satisfaction . But having , I say , perused your Book , truly Sir , ( if I am not mistaken , as I believe I am not ) you have come extream short of your promised project , in every of the four branches thereof . For first , if I found you short , I am sure I found you sharp and tart ; For Perspicuitie , I assure you I found much cloudie obscuritie ; Veri similitudinem multam , non ipsam veritatem ; satisfaction , therefore none at all . But especially , in that of projected moderation , and promised temperature in writing , ( the great defect , and foul fault , so cried out upon by Independents against all Presbyterian Writers or Speakers ) in stead of moderation I found abundance of bitternesse , and unsavourie jerkes and jeeres ( the light issues me thought , rather of a youthfull green-head , then the solid expressions of such a grave heart ) sprinkled , almost , over all your whole discourse ; which I must confesse much troubled and affected me with wonder to meet with , after such a seeming promise of moderation : Some few of very many whereof ( because I knew , Dolosus versatur in generalibus ) J have here particularized with their pages where they are evidently and easily to be seen . As first ( to omit your Via Sanguinea , with all its most bitter and biting , yea sorely wounding expositions of that term , in your Theomachia , &c. ) pag. 13. you compare Mr. Prynn in his Reply , to the two false witnesses , who falsly accused our blessed Saviour . And in the same Page you tell the Reader , Here Mr. Prynn vapours in his Reply ; immediatly after , in the same page how notably do you jeer and scoffe him about three Tabernacles ? And with what an elated spirit do you answer him , page 16. line 4. together with a down-right jeer about a Nationall Church , some 12 lines after ? You also grossely taxe him with errors , Page 17. Sect. 21. And Page 18. and 19. you frequently jeer him , and amongst those jeers you tell him , that Acts 15. is onely Mr. Prynns Gospell ; what a bitter and unchristian censure lay you upon him , and all Presbyterians , Page 24. Sect. 26. towards the end of it ? And O how you jeer him with his quotations , Page 37. towards the bottome ; as also Page 49. and Page 51. you slander him with want of Reason and Truth too ; and Page 52. you tell him , his pen spits black reproches in the face of Independents . You also accuse him Page 65. of much untruth ; and the same also again most fouly , Page 84. Together with a Notable jeer , exalting your selfe , and vilifying Mr. Prynn , which I have noted at large in your book , page 85. Together with very many other such like expressions , too tedious to be here recited ; And yet ( strange to consider ) you conclude them all ( with the conclusion of your book ) page 99. in a hortatorie way to Mr. Prynn in these words : That he would put lesse Vineger and Gall into his inke and more Wooll and Cotten . And in the Apostles words , Ephes. 4. 31. That all bitternesse and evill speaking be put away , as becomes brethren . And now any impartiall person may judge , whether you your self have followed this brotherly exhortation ; Nay , whether contrariwise , you have not with unbrotherly aspersions , indeavored to besmear the face of that precious Gentleman , most worthy ever to be honoured both by you all and us all ? Truly Sir , you Independent Gentlemen have dealt with this most worthy servant of the Lord , just as the people of Lystra did with the Apostle Paul , whom at first they so honoured and admired , as that they were ready to deifie him and make him a god ; but shortly after , they furiously indeavoured to stone him to death : So ye , at the first , in the time of Mr. Prynns first most elaborate and learned divine writings , yea and for his most glorious and Saint-like sufferiugs ; O then , how ye all ( with us ) most highly ( and that most justly too ) honoured him , and brought him home from bauishment , as it were in the triumphing Chariot of your love and praises ! But now , since he hath piously and faithfully written against your Independent way , and onely for this , O how have you and almost all of your way , indeavoured as much as in you is , to stone to death his illustrious reputation , by most unworthy and unchristian reviling and vilipending of him , both in words and writings ! Even him I say , who for his pietie , humilitie , incomparable constancie , fortitude and magnanimitie in suffering for Gospell Truths , was not inferiour to any of his most faithfull fellow-sufferers yea , whose soundnesse and sinceritie , whose profound learning and indefatigable labours in writing upon deepest points of Divinity and controverted Gospel Truths ( witnesse his Perpetuity of the estate of a regenerate man ; his Anti-Arminianisme , Vnbisboping of Timothy and Titus , his Histri-Mastix ; and many other his later , most learned , orthodox and precious peeces ) have made his never-dying name and fame most worthily renowned both in England and other parts of the world , beyond the Seas . And yet this noble Gentleman to be thus , I say , besmeared and bespattred with your unjust accusations , onely I say again , for writing the truth against Independent novelties ; O! it is most sad and bad to consider . Truly Sir , you must here give me leave to be yet more plain with you , I professe in the sinceritie of my soul , that I do most groundedly beleeve , that ( had Mr. Prynn been such a Non-sense , Consciencelesse , irrationall , false and frivolous writer , as you and others of your way only have strugled ( but all in vain ) to make and demonstrate him by your lavish tongues and pens ) that yet , I say certainly , Mr. Iohn Goodwin , was the most unfit man of all I know in London , to lay those undeserved criminations to Mr. Prynns charge . For , you know good Sir , that Qui in alterum paratus est dicere , ipsum vitio carere opertet . For you therefore , Reverend Sir , to take upon you to tax Mr. Pryn of errours , untruths , and such like , as you have done , how deeply you your self , ( before ever this most unhappy and unhol● difference of Independency with Presbitery was dreamed of ) have been ceusured both of Socinianisme ; ( and how justly too others have most learnedly in publike declared ) and more lately also how you have been discovered to hold a most Dangerous , yea a most Damnable opinion ( as a learned Independent Brother of yours termed it in my hearing , and who then said , he would justifie it against you ) touching justifying Faith by Christ . And now also , how fiercely you are faln on this unhappily disturbant new way of Independencie . I beseech you therefore , Reverend Sir , seriously to consider these things , to muster up your saddest thoughts , and to see into what a Labyrinth you are strangely and strongly intricated . Sir , I do not , I cannot denie , but ingenuously confesse that God hath given you much learning and eminent parts , but truly Sir , if I be not , mistaken , I greatly fear your Independent Proselites do too much magnifie , if not ( almost ) deifie you for them , and as it was with Pythagoras his Shollars , an Ipse dixit is enough , I , feare for many , if not most of your disciples , jurare in verba Magistri ; Whereby I pray God , your great parts and gifts bee not ( thus ) a great Snare to your soul , which I much feare , if not timely and truely seen into and prevented by Cordiall Self-deniall , and Holy Humilitie in your selfe , being more kindely affectioned with brotherly love , and in honour preferring others before your self ▪ Rom. 12. 10. And thus , Reverend Sir , I have made humbly bold , by your own occasion , lovingly and , I hope , fairly and friendly as a true Christian Brother ought , ( Levit. 19. 17 ) Liberare animam meam , and thus to manifest my reciprocall love and gratitude unto you , praying our good God it may be accepted with the like right handed Christian Candor , and Simplicitie of Heart with which it is sent and intended , I humbly take my leave and rest ,

SIR , Yours in our great Lord and Master Christ Jesus , to be commanded . IOHN VICARS . Jan. this 18. 1644. Imprimatur . Ja. Cranford . Jan. 24. 1644.

An Answer thereunto . To his much respected Friend Mr. IOHN VICARS , These be delivered .

( The Author of this following Letter , did not intend it for the Presse , but sent it to Mr. Vicars in a private way : But Mr. Vicars his Letter comming forth in Print , and divers Copies thereof being disperst into severall hands by himself , it was thought fit that this Letter should be published also . )

SIR ,

WHether it was my good or hard happe to meet with your Letter directed and sent to Mr. Iohn Goodwin , I cannot easily determine : for though all manner of knowledge , either of persons or things , be in some kinde or other beneficiall ; it being an undoubted Maxime , that Verum & Bonum convertuntur : yet some knowledge may be so circumstantiated , that it may prove more burdensome and offensive to the party knowing , then commodious . I confesse from the reading of your Lines I have gained thus much , to say I know you : but this gain hath occasioned such a considerable losse in the things of my joy , that I doe even wish for my former ignorance , and could be well contented , to have met with no other description of your frame and temper , then what the promise of your countenance , and the report of your friends have made of you : Indeed it cannot but deduct somewhat from the comfort of a reasonable man , to see one , whom ( one would thinke ) gray haires should have taught the language of sobernesse , shooting with his tongue at rovers , and speaking sharpe and devouring words against persons and things , which hee knowes not . Sorry I am , that Mr. Vicars should break the fair face of his reputation upon this stone , against which this besotted world is dashing it selfe in peeces from day to day . I have some hope that though your zeale to Mr. Prinns glory , did cast you into such an extasie of passion , that you scarce knew what you writ ; yet by this time you have pretty well recovered your selfe again : and lest the sense of your miscarriage should too much oppresse you , I give you to know that you are falne into soft and tender hands , and have discovered your nakednesse to such onely , who rather pittie , then deride it . For my part , I love not to disport my selfe at the weaknesse of any man , or to turne his folly into laughter ; for what were this , but to reflect dishonour upon the same nature , wherein he partakes with my selfe . Rather , I could mourn over the vanities of your Pen , and weep to see you so farre intoxicated , as to call the most injurious dealing one shall lightly meet with , by the name of candor and ingenuitie . The truth is , you have so fouly berayed your paper with bold and untrue assertions , imputations , exprobations , and such like excrements , that I thought even for modestie sake to have drawne over them the veile of silence , and to have contested with that spirit that breathes in them no further , then by speaking to it in a secret wish , the Lord rebuke thee . But I considered with my selfe , that perhaps you might communicate in the nature of such persons who ( as Solomon saith , Prov. 26. 5. ) are apt ( being unanswered ) to be wise in their own conceits : and if I shall hereby demolish or at least weaken this conceit of yours , I presume I shall do you herein a very charitable and Christian peece of service . Think not I am become your enemeie , because I tell you the truth : you have injured me no other waies then by trespassing upon your own credit , and by making thereby a sad breach in that holy profession , wherein you stand ingaged with my selfe . What ever your intentions were , I conceive you have done me no more wrong in clapping the title of an Independent Proselyte upon my back , then Pilate did to Christ in affixing this Superscription over his head , This is the King of the Iews . I think this name to be full as honourable , as that of a poore and unworthy Presbyterian , wherewith you have pleased to baptize your selfe : and conceive that herein only you have followed your owne , or rather the Apostles counsell , in honour to preferre others be●ore your selfe . But had you been minded to suppresse your name , your very Dialect had been enough to betray you : Me thinkes you write just like such a one as you say you are . Did I not hope for better things from the hands of more worthy Presbyterians , your unworthy dealing had set me off ten degrees further from your way , then now I stand : But I will not take the advantage of your , or any mans misdemeanor , though more grosse and absurde then yours to render Pesbytery odious to the world : To cloath any opinion or practice with the garments of mens personall distempers , thereby to fall upon them and beat them with the more applause , is a method which I as much abhorre , as the Gentleman you admire , delights in : and if this property in him were one of those beauty-spots which ravished you into a passionate adoration of him , you need not fear , that ever I should become your corrivall : And yet I love and honour Mr. Prynn for what ever you can finde lovely and honourable in him : I cannot denie but that in some of his workes , he hath acquitted himselfe upon commendable termes ; but to say that in all things , he writes after the rate of a God , when in many things he falls beneath the line of a man , is to make him and my selfe obnoxious to the wrath of God , and the scorne of man . I acknowledge that for a time he ran well , but who hindred him ? questionlesse He who is ever and anon Hindring the Saints in the race of holinesse . The Prince of darkenesse owed him a fall for his sharpe contesting with his prime agents , and now hee hath payed his debt ; but if Mr. Prynn will bee ruled by the advice of his best friends , hee may rise again to his greater glory , and notwithstanding his fall , triumph over the envy and malice of the Devill . Concerning Mr. Iohn Goodwin , ( over whom you shake the rod of your reproofe , as if he were one of your Schollers ) I could speak as high and excellent Encomiums , as you have spoken of your preci●us Gentleman ; I could compare him even with Mr. Prynn himselfe : but such a comparison as this , would bee to mee most odious . I could tell you what hee hath done , what hee hath writ , how deeply hee hath suffered from unreasonable men ; yea , I could give you such a lively and bright description of him , as would dazle your eyes to look upon , and make you blush for shame to have grapled with such a person as he is , upon such rude and unmannerly termes as you have done . For you , who are but a Teacher of boyes , so haughtily to correct a great Master in Israel , is such an absurdity , as cannot but rend a more patient soule then mine , into disdaine and griefe . T is a wonder to me , that , whereas at the beginning of your Letter , you confesse your selfe to bee but a poore and unworthy Presbyterian , you should so far forget your selfe before you come halfe way , as to take upon you , like the Dr. of the Chaire ; and to censure the best of men and wayes with as much confidence , as if your pen had dropt the Votes of a Generall Assembly with its inke . Had a poore and unworthy Independent done the like , you would have cast this boldnesse into a Basiliske , and used it to batter down the way of his profession , and to lay the glory of it even with the ground ▪ But I well perceive , though you have scap't the snare of Gifts and parts ( in which you fear Mr. Goodwin is taken ) yet you are falne into the pit , not of Divine , but naturall simplicity ; and have verified the old Proverb , A rash mans bolt is soone shot . As for that Book of Mr. Goodwins , called Innocencie and Truth triumphing together , though you are pleased to triumph over both , and to cast it out as an Arch-Rebel to reason and morality , yet ( I must tell you ) it hath found joyfull and bountifull entertainement in the judgements of sober and intelligent men : But certainly , it was the unhappinesse of this Treatise to fall into your hands , when you stood upon the Mount of Mr. Prins honour , and when the vision of his transfiguration wrought so strongly in you , that you did not wot , what you spake , no , nor what you did neither , for you laid about you with such regardlesse fury that you broke the head of your friend Priscian , * of whose safety men of your profession , should be most tender . I thought to have argued the case with you , whether your exceptions against this Treatise and its Author , will hold in the Court of Reason and equity : but perhaps you are not so well skilled in the rules of this Court ; and I am loath to take the advantage of you . I shall only propound a few Querees , peradventure the struglings of your thoughts to give them satisfaction , may dissolve the inchantment that is now upon you . What persons did ever most learnedly declare Mr. Goodwin to be justly censured for Socinianisme ? When , or in what publique place did they make this Declaration ? How call you that Brother of his , who will justifie against him the charge of holding a most damnable opinion about justifying faith ? I suppose you must strain , not so much your memory as your invention , in shaping your answer : You had done well to remember , that though Fooles ( as Solomon speaks ) beleeve every thing ; yet wise men will question such assertions as these : Alas ( Sir ) the best course you can run to gaine credit with the prudent , is to cut your allegations and your proofes , just of one and the same length : to cloath large and broad sayings with curtaild Arguments , reflects as much shame upon such sayings , and him that speakes them , as Hanun did upon the servants of David● in cutting off their Garments to their buttocks . You cannot but know , how that many grave , sober , Godly , and learned men have falne into that way you call Independencie . Now , your onely method , to have brought over these to your partie , and to have filled their mouthes with the cry of a confederacy against this way , had bin this ; not barely to have affirmed it to be a novell and disturbant way ( as you have done ) but to have poysed the lightnesse of your affirmation , with the weight and substance of a Demonstration . I assure you ( Sir ) ( what ever you may thinke ) I approve of this way no further then I see the footsteps of those sweet sisters , Truth and Peace Printed in it : I have narrowly view'd it , and I can finde no drops of blood , no strewings of the liberties , estates , names , comforts of the Saints scattered in it , and yet some Travellers affirme , they have seen such things as these in that way , which the ignorance of thousands lust after . But to conclude , I beseech you ( Sir ) bee more watchfull over the extravagancies of your tongue and pen for the future : since you are ( in part ) acquainted with their infirmities , let it be your wisdome to seek their cure . I reverence you for age , piety , and some services you have done to the Publique ; and I should rejoyce to see such an ancient standard in the Garden of God as you are , carrying your hoary head with honour to the grave : which that you may doe , as I have ( you see ) in part indeavoured , so I shall further prosecute with my prayers to him , who is able to keep you to the end : in whom ( though I am unknown to you ) yet with all sincerity I professe my selfe ,

SIR , A cordiall well-wisher to your peace and credite : D. T. January 27. 1644.

Notes, typically marginal, from the original text

Notes for div A95901e-1100 * The words in the written Coppy of his Letter , are these , and thus spell'd , qui in alterum paratus est dicere , ipsum vicio careat oportet , as may appeare from the originall in Mr. Goodwins custody . But it seemes the Corrector being the better Grammarian transform'd them into good Latine in the printed Copie . ]